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Nov 05

Episode 342: Longevity, Depression, Monk Fruit, Natural Vanilla, Ketone False Positives, Fatty Liver, Getting Family To Fast, Liver, Heart & Brain Health With Fasting, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 342 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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10 tips to live to be 100: ‘Far more than wishful thinking,' say longevity experts

7 healthy lifestyle changes that could help reduce risk of depression, says study: ‘Enormous benefits’

10 simple tips to help you reach 100, according to experts

Listener Q&A: Rob - Thank You

Intermittent fasting may protect the heart by controlling inflammation 

Improvement in coronary heart disease risk factors during an intermittent fasting/calorie restriction regimen: Relationship to adipokine modulations  

Intermittent Fasting as Possible Treatment for Heart Failure 

Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Brain Metabolism

Intermittent fasting contributes to aligned circadian rhythms through interactions with the gut microbiome

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

TONE DEVICE: Get on the exclusive VIP list to be notified when the 2nd Generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 342 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 342 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have sparkly things to share. It's been a sparkly whirlwind of a week last week. 

Vanessa Spina: I feel you. Yeah, I'm feeling sparkly too. Could you tell us what all the sparkles are about?

Melanie Avalon: All the sparkles-- well, first of all, not that the first thing I check when I wake up is Instagram, but it sort of is Peter Attia, did you see his post today? 

Vanessa Spina: No. 

Melanie Avalon: He posted about how seeing the Taylor Swift concert has ruined all other concerts for him.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's amazing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was like, my life is complete. My life is complete, but even more sparkly. So, I know you've seen this, but I don't know why the Fox Health Editor, like the official Fox Health Editor has decided that she thinks I'm an expert in longevity related topics, but she has, and she's so amazing, and so back-to-back last week and it was a really fast turnaround, but basically she asked for a lot of questions about my tips on longevity, and it was crazy because I had so much going on anyways, and then I got that, I had to work on that all day because she wanted it that night. So, we submitted it that night, and then the next day-- that morning at like 04:00 A.M., so essentially the next day, she published this huge article on Fox Health about longevity and heavily featured me. So, the title, if people would like to look it up, is 10 tips to live to be 100 "Far more than wishful thinking," say longevity experts. The far more than wishful thinking is from my quote, which is crazy. And then that quote actually opens up the story. And then she lists these ten different tips, and I think I talk about three of them. I think I'm the source for three of them. I talk about intermittent fasting, which is very exciting for longevity, and then I talk about preventing cardiovascular disease, which I learned mostly from Peter Attia. So, I talked about sort of nonconventional testing, so testing ApoB, which is something that InsideTracker tests, by the way, as well as Lp(a), which I learned about with Dr. Kahn. What's the third thing--? Oh, no, I gave her three things and I think she featured those two. 

But then what's even crazier is so that published and then she was like, "Oh, I'm writing another article tonight if you want to submit for that as well." So right after that, she had these questions about lifestyle health tips for depression. So, I gave her a lot of information, and then that published the next day, and it was called “7 healthy lifestyle changes that could help reduce risk of depression,” says study enormous benefits. And what's really crazy about that is, honestly, half of the article is my quotes which is crazy. And then what was kind of exciting to see was she like-- in one of the sections I talked about-- answers I gave her, I included more about wine and polyphenols and studies on that and depression, but she mostly just included the part about the alcohol and depression. But what's interesting, she sort of pitted me against another expert in the study, which felt like-- it felt exciting. 

And then what also happened which was kind of cool in the in between was the first study, the “10 tips to live to be 100,” the one where, like I said talked about intermittent fasting. So, the intermittent fasting part that I talked about. So, her tip number five was consider intermittent fasting. And she says caloric restriction is the only dietary approach shown in animal studies to extend lifespan, Avalon noted, Ahh that's me. And then she quotes me saying that time-restricted eating, also known as intermittent fasting, may be a formidable alternative especially in humans. The article talks about how there are different types of intermittent fasting. And then she quotes me again and I have a story about this quote, but she quotes me saying these include improved metabolic function, increased insulin sensitivity, reduced levels of inflammation, activation of the AMPK pathway, a chain of cellular proteins that regulates many biological processes, and the stimulation of autophagy, a sort of cellular cleanup process, Avalon said.

Okay, two things about this quote, and I need your opinion, Vanessa. So, one, when she originally published this quote, she actually misquoted me and put in MAPK, which is like a different thing. My publicist reached out to her and had her fix it, but not before the New York Post took the article and turned it into their own article. And in that article, they quoted me quoting to Fox, which was kind of exciting to see, but then they misquoted me. So, then the MAPK was in two major online news publication sources. So, I was having this freak out moment where I was like, people are going to think I'm not intelligent, but thankfully my publicist was able to get in touch with both editors and get it fixed. But what I don't know, because she actually inserted the definition for AMPK, and I think she was defining MAPK, not AMPK, but the weird thing is the definition could still sort of fit AMPK, but I'm not sure. So, hearing that definition activation of the AMPK pathway, a chain of cellular proteins that regulates many biological processes, do you think she was defining AMPK or MAPK with that? 

Vanessa Spina: Can you say it again? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, a chain of cellular proteins that regulates many biological processes. 

Vanessa Spina: Well, they both kind of are that. I mean, I'm more familiar with AMPK, which is like an enzymatic pathway, so I guess it could be classified as that. But I've heard people talk about MAPK, I just don’t-- and that pathway. I'm looking it up right now, mitogen activated protein kinase. It's also a family of enzymes, so it sounds like you could really define both of them that way. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's what I was thinking. I just think it's funny because I think she was talking about MAPK, because I would put the biological processes with that. If it had been AMPK, I think it would have been more about energy sensing, like you said. So, it's funny. I was talking to my publicist, I was like, can we get her to change the definition? And he was like, do we really need to? And I was like, I guess it's technically true. So that was just like a whirlwind. And it was all back-to-back, and then with the New York Post jumping in there and quoting me, so not only was it really exciting. Three things were really exciting, B I'm just so grateful that this health editor at Fox is just so kind and so nice and writing all of these stories about longevity and biohacking. She's actually the one who wrote the first article that I had in Fox about biohacking specifically. So, in any case, it's really exciting for a few different reasons. One, I'm just so grateful that the editor at Fox Health is writing all these stories about longevity and biohacking, and it's just really really exciting. And she said she wants to continue, including my insights, so I'm just so grateful for that. That's my week. So, how was your week, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: It's been really good. I'm so excited for you. I think that's just super amazing and it's so great when you form a relationship with a journalist because it's such a symbiotic relationship like they help us out, we help them out, and it's just like they're always looking for great content and authors, and sometimes you develop a really good relationship, and you could have a relationship with this journalist for decades. So, it's really amazing to cultivate those and amazing that she put you in so many huge articles back-to-back, and you're now a bona fide longevity expert, so that's amazing. 

[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was like, oh--, well, it was kind of funny because talking about impostor syndrome and stuff because she defines me in the articles as certain words, like as a biohacker or an influencer or like all these different words that I'm. She never calls me a podcaster, interestingly enough. But words I was struggling to fully embrace, I think. Well, maybe biohacker works for me. Yeah, it's very exciting. And like you said, yeah, I think the long-term relationship is nice. So, we shall see how it continues. 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. And thank you for the support. It actually what it feels like. I was talking with my acting friend. I was like, this feels like casting directors with acting and then getting the auditions the night before, and then they need it right then, and forming relationships and realizing that you are kind of helping them because they're really trying to fill a role. Oftentimes, casting directors on TV shows that are turning over fast and things like that, they need the people. And so, it's really helpful for them to find actors they know can do the parts really quick. And so, I feel like I'm becoming one of her resources for that, which is very exciting. So, I told her, I was like, I will talk, I will comment on anything and everything, you just said and she-- and I go, like, way overboard. So, she asked for a very simple answer, and I send her pages and pages with cited resources so it's probably helpful. 

Vanessa Spina: Very helpful. Yeah, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: So how is your week going? 

Vanessa Spina: It's been really good. I have a funny story to tell you. 

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about this. I'm so excited. Okay, I'm ready. 

Vanessa Spina: So, Scott from MD Logic, both of our supplement partner, he had been sending me the latest samples of Tone Protein and I was testing them out this week. I tested them out on two different, two or three—three days in total. Like, I had just done them on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. And this is the final, final, final version. So, I was super excited to try them. And they have a sweetener in it called monk fruit, which a lot of people are probably familiar with, which I like. We had been trying different sweeteners, like with Stevia and Erythritol and like some, we're trying to find sweeteners that are not banned anywhere, like Europe. Monk fruit looks like it's not fully approved here yet, but it's going to be just like allulose. So, Stevia and Erythritol might be in the European version. But anyway, we kind of settled on monk fruit, which is something that I have never had any issues with, always liked it as a sweetener.

So, I tested out the versions and I kind of compartmentalized that as something separate. And I started having what I thought were some really big issues with the Tone Device, which is my breath ketone analyzer, which is getting ready, we're in the final days of preparing the last units and getting ready to do the final inspection, ship everything out, like really in the final days. And I've been so excited about how incredibly sensitive and accurate this new second generation is. As you know, Melanie Avalon, and as probably some listeners by now know. And it started really acting up on me and I started to get very concerned that there was like a huge issue, because it wasn't just one of them, it was both of them. They were giving me these really high numbers in the morning when I knew that I wasn't in ketosis and I could tell from the blood, and you know we talked about the ratios, and so I was like, maybe it's like something weird happening with a pregnancy where my ratios of beta hydroxybutyrate and breath acetone ketones are decoupling because of the pregnancy. I was like, I don't know what it is, but it was really really worrying me. So, then--

Melanie Avalon: Were you like just not testing any ketones? 

Vanessa Spina: So, in the morning, I usually have 0.2, 0.3 blood ketones and the Tone Device is the same. It's like 2 or 3. So, I'm used to seeing the same thing every day, and suddenly it was showing me 26, 27, 29. And I'm like, these are really high numbers, like, equivalent to 2.7, 2.9, or 3 millimolar ketone, right? Like, ten times more, like, deep, deep in ketosis. But the blood was still showing me 0.2, so I was really concerned. So, second morning, it happened again. I asked Luca if he could test Tone Devices, which he loves playing with, you know, it's like a fun toy, like it counts down, you blow into it makes a beep and everything. 

Melanie Avalon: So cute. Oh, my gosh. You're using your child. Oh, my gosh. 

Vanessa Spina: So, Luca tested for me in the morning and he gets a 4 and a 6. And I'm like--

Melanie Avalon: To get paid.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] No, he's my unpaid intern. So, he gets a 4 and a 6. And I'm like, that lines up because babies and toddlers are going in and out of ketosis all the time and it was the morning time. And he doesn't eat like a high-carb, high-processed diet. So, I was like, okay, that tracks. So, then I asked Pete to test and he gets a 0 and a 1 every time because he doesn't eat low carb. He does intermittent fasting, but he eats donuts at night. He's having mochas with sugar, he's just not eating low carb. There's a whole other story with that and why he can eat high carb and he can do great with it. But anyway--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, teaser. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, 0 and 1, okay, perfect. So, mine are still like through the roof, and I'm just like what is going on? It must be me, because I have two units. They're both testing the same numbers, showing 27, 28, 29, and they're showing consistently accurate results for Luca and for Pete. So, I keep going this way for like three days, and I'm just like, messaging my rep at the factory, and I'm just like, I'm really worried like something bad is happening with the Tones, there's just something is going on at the sensor, I don't know what it is. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.

So, anyway, I'm like, what have I done differently this week? The only thing was Tone Protein. So, I'm like, "Okay, it must be the monk fruit." So, I start going down these rabbit holes of like monk fruit. I'm like, "Okay, so it's this luo han guo, it's like a Chinese fruit," maybe it's having one of those weird reactions, right? Like We talked about with sometimes like cabbage, it'll have some sugars in it, like raffinose that'll give these crazy high false positives. So, I'm like, it must be the monk fruit. I am writing to Scott, I'm like, "This version is not going to work. We have to go back to the drawing board. No monk fruit, it's totally messing with my Tone Device. And whenever that happens, I get worried because I don't want the sensor to get damaged." So he's like, man, that sucks. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, the sensor to get damaged, can it be damaged by?

Vanessa Spina: So, there's certain things that like-- that's why I'm always saying test in the fasted state, is if you are like, you say someone is testing after they brush their teeth, the mint or after they use mouthwash, the mint or the alcohol on there can mess with the sensor if it's done repeatedly. So, this was like a few days that I was using it and I'm like, I don't want the sensor to get damaged here, so I was really upset. 

We have to go back to the drawing board on Tone Protein. It's going to be like huge delay. We have to figure out a different sweetener. We can't use monk fruit. And Scott's just like, "Oh man, that's brutal, I can't believe the monk fruit is doing that." And then he goes, "Wait, it's not the monk fruit." And I'm like on the edge of my seat just watching the bubbles of the three dots like what does he think it is? What does he think it is? 

Melanie Avalon: It's such a vibe. 

Vanessa Spina: And I'm like, what is it? what is it? And it's like 11 at night for me, which is really late for me, I'm just like,--

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I'm okay, I'm--

Vanessa Spina: So, he's like, the vanilla, because it's whey protein isolate, like super pure vanilla and monk fruit. The vanilla had alcohol in it. And that's a very common thing, is like when vanilla is processed and sold as like an extract or as an additive, it has alcohol in it. And I remembered like--

Melanie Avalon: The dried vanilla, doesn't it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, the one that they're using had-- it's a natural vanilla. They were trying to get the most natural vanilla. So, this natural vanilla had alcohol in it to bind it or something. And I remember so many times being at the store buying vanilla and having to try really hard to find one without alcohol in it because most of them just say vanilla extract. But then when you look at the ingredients, there's alcohol. Sometimes, like, soya sauce has that too, it's very common. It's not a lot, but apparently Scott said there was enough in the one sample that I had to be like a tenth of a glass of wine. And nothing messes with the Tone Device more than alcohol in terms of getting false positives. Because as were talking about, if you are in ketosis and you get pulled over, you can blow like a false positive on a breathalyzer. So, alcohol looks very similar to the ketone to acetone in the breath, which is why you can't use mouthwash because it has alcohol in it. And then anything like really really strong, like mint and toothpaste will also have a similar effect. So, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you figured it out." Because that's exactly what the readings would be if I had had a tenth of a glass of wine. It would be like showing around 27, 28, 29. So I had mentioned to him that alcohol messes with the device, but he figured out what it was and we’re like, "Oh, my gosh, here we go, it's not the monk fruit, we don't have to start over." And I could-- I was so relieved that the Tone Device is totally fine.

It takes about 36 hours for your body to metabolize alcohol fully. I'm not an expert on alcohol like you are, but I knew that it would take a day and a half, maybe more, and by Saturday afternoon, it was back to totally accurate readings, giving me the exact numbers that I was expecting to get and no more of the 27, 28, 29. So, I was like messaging factory. I was like, "Don't worry, everything's fine." It was just so many things happening that I was like, "Oh, my gosh, we're going to have to go back to the drawing board of the protein, we're going to have to do some major fixes with the Tone Device." And thankfully, it was neither, so I was super relieved and just really happy that Scott figured out it was the alcohol because I never would have thought that there was alcohol in there. 

And then I was like, well, I don't want to be testing these [laughs] samples anymore, they have alcohol. And I also don't want alcohol in Tone Protein. So, it was kind of a great thing that we caught it because I would have been not very happy if we'd gone to the final steps and I had seen alcohol in there. So now Scott's been doing research all week on finding a vanilla that is not artificial, is pure, and I sent him some information on this powdered vanilla bourbon. He's like, it doesn't alcohol? and I'm like no, no, it's just called bourbon vanilla or vanilla bourbon, and it's just pure vanilla from Madagascar. So, I'm trying to get that in it instead. But I'm really glad that there's not going to be any alcohol in it. I'm so relieved. It was not the Tone Devices, it was just the alcohol. And yeah, it was a crazy few days of being super panicked and then very, very, very relieved. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that's crazy. I did not know-- I always thought alcohol burned out when it was-- you know it cooks out or when it's dry, I didn't realize it could still be there.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know how much they cook it or I don't really know much about the vanilla that we were using in the sample other than the fact that it was natural, but [laughs] yeah, I never would have thought that it had alcohol in it and even though I've seen so many commercial preparations of vanilla that have alcohol. And you know Scott didn't realize that that was important to me either. I'm just trying to make sure that Tone Protein has few ingredients as possible. I'm like, I just want whey protein isolate-- pure whey protein isolate, and basically vanilla and leucine that we're adding the leucine, vanilla and a healthy sweetener, So, yeah, it was a crazy roller coaster moment. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow, wow. I'm excited though for you that they figured it out. And that'll be a really big I don't like using the word "selling point." That's a really nice thing to share with listeners about, just the purity of the ingredients and the quality and vanilla is-- There's like a whole vanilla world, like vanilla-- you know people look for really high-quality vanilla. So, when you find the vanilla that you'll be using, that'll be something really important or something great to share about the protein.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I was like, Scott, this may have been like a stressful few days, but I have a great story to share on The Intermittent Fasting Podcast and on my podcast. It was so funny that happened to really be connected to both of them, but yeah, that's my story, I was really excited to tell you about it. 

[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can imagine that moment of thinking that you have to start over. 

Vanessa Spina: With both my products that I'm so excited on. 

[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my God. Oh, you're right. Ahh wow, wow. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, but thankfully it's all good, so yeah that's how my week's been going with this. That was last week, so this week is amazing and Luca said I love you to me for the first time about an hour ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, whoa. 

Vanessa Spina: We were having dinner. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, it is like moment, hold on. 

Vanessa Spina: I know, I know. We were just sitting there having dinner and he said, mima. And he calls me mima. He calls me mommy sometimes. He said mima and he just gave me this big smile, and I looked at him and I said, I love you, and he said, I love you. Peter and I were both like oh, my gosh, he said I love you. There're just so many firsts like that right now. But he's just the sweetest kid. He's also been doing this thing at night when we put him to bed, he has to give us both forehead kisses, and it feels like a small little bird is like going over and kissing your forehead. He's got like this tiny little mouth you know so he's just like [smacks tongue] he goes back and forth. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like butterfly kisses? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, butterfly kisses. He goes back and forth between the two of us and we both just look at each other and we're both just, like, melting. Yeah, yeah, it's been-- I'm like, you made my entire day. I was already excited because it was our recording day, which always makes me happy all day, but yeah that put things over the top. 

Melanie Avalon: It's a magical night, you got to write this down. Wait, September. Yes, the same day for us, September 19th, 2023. I got to ask my parents if they remember the first time I said I love you. That's funny because I never-- because I think-- when you think about that romantically like the first time a person says I love you, but I've never thought about it in that context, that's so cute. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean, he's just starting to talk so much, and he's just saying the cutest things and repeating everything. But I've said I love you to him many times and I think he knows what it means. Like, just the way he smiled and looked at me and said it was just like I melted into a puddle. But yeah, feeling really great about life and everything. And I'm so thankful to be here and excited to be here. Excited to answer listener questions too.

Melanie Avalon: Life is so magical. It really is. Even when it's not, it is. 

Vanessa Spina: I was so excited earlier this week about our podcast together. My interview on your podcast hitting really high on the charts. I think it was above 20 on the US charts on nutrition. But it was just fun to see it getting such a great response, and I was really excited about that too, and sharing it with you. Just love doing this podcast with you, doing other episodes with you, and it's all just so awesome and wonderful.

Melanie Avalon: No, I feel the exact same way. I was so excited to air that and then the responses from people have just been so wonderful. It's been really great. And I've been personally-- you actually-- I didn't realize that my social media manager was-- I did realize, but I didn't really realize that he was adding Taylor Swift music to my post. And so, Vanessa I was like, "The Taylor Swift song," and I was like, "the Taylor Swift Song." 

[laughter]

Wait, Vanessa Spina, so now guess what I am doing. I just had an email conversation with like I was like, "Okay, so going forward, I'm going to send over for every post the exact Taylor Swift song I want and the exact lyric, and the exact section because I want it to match up the content." So, now my Instagram will be optimized for-- so when I post this week, the posts about you, I picked out that specific Taylor Swift part, although he kind of didn't do the right part yesterday, so that's okay, though, it kind of came off a little bit how do I say this G-rated.

[laughter] 

See because I wanted to do, it was a post about breath ketones and so I wanted to do something from Taylor Swift's song Dress because she makes a lot of breathy sounds in it. So, I had a section picked out that has a lot of breathy sounds and I told him which part to use, but he used the wrong breathy sound part of the song. I think the lyric is like, "I only bought this dress so you could take it off." So that was not like not like what I was going for.

[laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. That's so funny. 

Melanie Avalon: But then I brought it back because I was like, well, actually, this post is about burning fat and so maybe that's the vibe. But I'm not saying, “Vanessa, I only bought this dress so you could take it off. “

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Oye my stomach hurts. And I laughed too much right now. Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, it's so funny, so funny. I feel like at the end of the day, I'd be like, "Let me just do it, because I just can't, that's just too much."

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. 

Vanessa Spina: it would just annoy me, but eventually I'm sure he'll get the hang of it. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, because the problem is. So, with Instagram stories, when you pick the song, you flip through the lyrics and you pick the lyrics, so it's easy. But with the post, there're no lyrics that pop up, you just drag the slider, so you have to find the section of the song without seeing any lyrics. So, last night I spent literally probably 20 minutes deciding all of the songs for Farmer Lee Jones and sent him the timestamp and the lyrics, so we'll see how that goes, but I don't know. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, "Melanie Avalon, is this a good use of your time? I'm like, yeah, but then I'm like, yes, it is." So, aww, we'll see how that goes. On that note, shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina: Excited to get into these. 

Melanie Avalon: Would you like to read the first one from Rob? 

Vanessa Spina: So, the first question is from Rob and the subject is, “Thank you. Hello ladies, I love the podcast, I want to thank the both of you for spreading the word about intermittent fasting. I have been IF-ing since January and I have lost 25 pounds with a 16 to 20-hour fasting window. I got my father to fast as well. He lost more weight than I have and his health has gotten better of course. I was thinking the other day while listening to your podcast. Your podcast has not only helped many listeners lose weight, but you are literally saving lives. I cannot thank you enough. I will enjoy many more healthy years with my father,” aww, I'm going to cry “with my father because I started listening to you two wonderful ladies, thank you.” 

“Thank you. I do not have a question, but a suggestion for the podcast. I recently found out that I have fatty liver. I think that it would be a great idea if you could go over the impact that intermittent fasting has on organs. Ladies, keep doing what you're doing.” Aww, wow, that was so beautiful. Thank you so much, Rob. Really really such kind and sincere words and I just appreciate that so much. And I feel what you're feeling of getting those years back with your dad like it’s seriously going to make me cry, so thanks for sharing all that. 

Melanie Avalon: I know I was sitting there just like taking that in. I mean, we read all of these wonderful messages and I have social media interactions, but I think we forget that these are like real people, maybe I do. I don't want to speak for you. I'm just visualizing that this is real people listening, making these lifestyle changes and experiencing the benefits and it's just so incredible and wonderful. 

Vanessa Spina: I think it's hard sometimes because our audience are kind of like faceless, like except, for like you said, when we interact on Instagram, and it's why I love interacting on Instagram and Facebook because people have photos, you can actually put a face to the listeners, to the community because it's hard to visualize sometimes who's out there listening, like you know-- you see the numbers, but you don't necessarily have a visual idea of what that is so, yeah. I totally get it and when people personalize it, I always say, if you just tell me what you're doing when you're listening, when you tag me in a post you're like take a story of you, out for a walk or a hike or wherever you are, It just fills my heart so much to see where people are, what they're doing, they're driving in the car, or I'll just get a photo of the dashboard with the podcast playing, and I'm like, that's amazing like you're listening while you're driving to work or whatever. Yeah, it's amazing, but to hear your personal story and I applaud you, Rob, for getting your dad into intermittent fasting, and you're the one who's really helping him, so that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, it's so exciting when the family jumps on board as well. Yeah, none of my family has jumped on board, I don't think. Nope, just me, just me. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I've had some people definitely interested and have tried things here and there, but I have part of our extended family on Pete's side that was already into paleo and all the stuff, so that was kind of cool. But I feel like you can't really get people into it, and it's hard to when they're your family, because they're just like-- they're always going to be like little Melanie or little Vanessa or whatever. You're never going to come across as like an authority to them. But I think it's when you do what Rob's doing, you go out and do it, you lose 25 pounds, feeling great, getting these great results, and then your family or your friends come and go like, "Hey, what are you doing? I'd love to do that too." That's the best scenario as opposed to being like, "I did this, I love it, now I'm going to make everyone in my family and friends do it because they won't, they will not." 

Melanie Avalon: No. Yeah, actually to comment on that. And that's how I ended my Newsweek piece that came out where I shared my story about my diet history and coming to fasting and biohacking and all the things. The way I ended that story and this is why I genuinely, truly believe, I don't have any goal to change anybody, I just want to experience things for myself and then share. And because it has such a profound effect on me, like with intermittent fasting, share it with others, I don't want to force it upon anybody. So, I actually have that-- I think that's a really good, so like with my family, I never try to convert them or anything because I think especially a lot of people can fall into profound dietary changes. It will have such an effect on their life and so they just want to tell everybody and they want everybody to do it, but I think people only listen if they're ready, so I just wait until people come to me asking questions, and then I provide my answer, but that I'm aware of-- I really don't I don't really ever walk up and try to tell somebody to change what they're doing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's not effective. I really believe you have to inspire people and they have to feel like it's their idea. And anytime you deliberately try to influence someone as opposed to inspiring them, it just doesn't work like people just-- My favorite thing is nobody likes unsolicited advice, nobody. No, you know It's just a losing game to play, whereas if you just do what you're doing and people are inspired by you then it's so much more effective. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. And actually, that happened with my, I'm thinking, my mom has probably before-- my mom will come and ask me health-related questions, she will for sure. My sister will occasionally; brother, nope, dad, nope, and then sister-in-law, she actually reached out for preparing for her wedding and was curious my thoughts on different diets and things. So, Rob. 

Vanessa Spina: Way to go, Rob. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Thank you for that and very happy for you and your dad. Yeah, that's absolutely incredible. And this was a great suggestion and I went down the rabbit hole-- Okay, well, first of all when he says he would love to hear about the impact that IF has on organs. I had never really contemplated the definition of organs. Almost everything in your body is an organ besides the water. But even your eye-- like within your eye there're different organs, so I was like, "Oh, this is basically your whole body." Because especially people will even make the argument that your skin is an organ. So, I decided to focus on, I think the main things people think of. And since Rob was talking about fatty liver, so I focused on the liver and the heart and the brain with a bonus of the pancreas. 

So, what's interesting about all of this is-- So I individually researched each of these three organs, there was so much overlap in that intermittent fasting would create these conditions that would benefit each of these things. For example, like the anti-inflammatory effect was huge for a lot of them, actually all of them. And it is sort of like, I would say third party, but it's three things, so fourth party factor that really seemed to influence a lot of this was actually the gut, like the effect that intermittent fasting would have on the gut microbiome and then how that would affect the liver or how that would affect the brain. But to go through them one by one. 

So, the heart, and I thought this was really important, especially like I was talking about with that Fox article about longevity, which by the way, we will put links to those articles in the show notes. When she asked me for my tips for longevity, it was so hard because I was like there're so many things, what should I talk about? And the first thing that really obviously came to mind was intermittent fasting, which is why I talked to her about that. And then the second thing, like I mentioned earlier, was cardiovascular health, because ischemic heart disease is the number one cause of mortality. The more I read specifically Peter Attia's book Outlive, the more and more I learned about just the importance of trying to prevent cardiovascular disease risk and-- By the way, Vanessa, do you have thoughts? He is so pro statin use. Even last night, the podcast I was listening to, he was saying that to paraphrase something about how if you want to avoid cardiovascular disease, you're really going to have to be on pharmaceuticals like a statin. Even if you-- even if you like, that's like almost a direct quote from him. 

Vanessa Spina: I couldn't agree less. I mean, after studying physiology and biochemistry and seeing how many drugs like statins and proton-pump inhibitors are interfering with the body's physiology, it's similar to me, the reasoning behind cutting out your gallbladder or cutting out your appendix unless it's exploded or exploding. Cutting out vital organs that are there for good reason, I just don't understand, and statins really mess with hormones. Proton-pump inhibitors have so many downstream negative side effects because you're messing with basic physiology. And I say that with no qualifications whatsoever as a medical professional, I am nothing of the sort, but it's just my personal opinion. I know there're probably some situations where pharmaceutical drugs can be helpful and needed, but I'm really surprised that he has that opinion.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. I am really interested in PCSK9 inhibitors, which are the newer therapeutic pharmaceutical target for cardiovascular disease. I think his argument is, I don't want to get this wrong, but basically it's that if genetically your liver is in a situation where it just creates more cholesterol or-- I was listening to another episode and there's like three different things that can happen with LDL receptors in the liver that can create problematic lipid levels, leading to potentially cardiovascular disease, and a lot of it is genetic, and so there's not much diet modification that you can do to affect it. Like, you can affect it a little bit, but it's hard to go all the way, I guess. And so, I guess his argument is that that's just something that you would have to do if you want to completely abolish cardiovascular disease risk. 

What's interesting then, though, as well, especially after interviewing Dr. Kahn and learning all about Lp(a), which I also talk about in that Fox article, if you have, from what I read in that book, the latest on Lp(a) is if you have that genetic tendency, diet and lifestyle don't really-- Oh, wait, so diet and lifestyle barely affect it and statins may not affect it either. So, yeah, I don't know, that's a whole rabbit hole.

Back to intermittent fasting's effects on the heart. So, there are quite a few studies on the potential beneficial effects of intermittent fasting on cardiovascular disease risk. And oh, so I mentioned earlier that there's a common factor affecting all of these things, obesity. So, the metabolic state of obesity is highly correlated to different other diseases in the body. So visceral adipose tissue, which is the really detrimental type of body fat. So, we have different types of body fat; subcutaneous fat is the type of fat that you can see and pinch under your skin, and it's relatively benign compared to visceral adipose tissue, which is around your organs, and it's actually inflammatory.

And so, it releases inflammatory adipokines, basically inflammatory signals that can have a negative effect. And it's probably that inflammatory state created by that fat tissue, which is encouraging these other disease processes. So, anything that is going to reduce visceral adipose tissue specifically will likely beneficial for not only disease states, but our organs in general. And intermittent fasting has been shown to specifically benefit visceral adipose tissue. And then by benefit it, I mean reduce it. And then on top of that, super interesting, there are studies on how intermittent fasting can promote the browning of white adipose tissue. So basically, turning white adipose tissue, which is the storage inflammatory form, into brown adipose tissue, which is metabolically active and actually burns calories, and that can potentially have a beneficial effect on the heart as well as the liver, which is super cool. 

And then studies have shown that intermittent fasting can have favorable effects on lipid panels, so those cholesterol panels, although I will add the caveat that they can be complicated to interpret, which I also talk about in the Fox article. And then I also found some more specific things related to the heart-- Oh, actually, before that, the heart actually can be fueled pretty well on ketones as well, so that is a benefit there. And so, I found one study, and it talked about intermittent fasting protecting the heart by controlling inflammation and they actually found that intermittent fasting raised levels in a trial of 67 people called Galectin-3. So, it actually can help reduce inflammation. It's been linked to-- levels of it have been linked to heart failure, high levels are protective basically against heart failure, so that is very cool. And then another study by the same author. So that author was Dr. Benjamin Horne. They had a paper published in 2020 as well as a paper in 2017, and they found that intermittent fasting could beneficial for the heart and lower the risk of developing heart failure. 

So, long story short, lots of potentially beneficial effects on the heart including specifically the heart organ itself with the ketones and the anti-inflammatory markers, as well as the cholesterol lipid situation of the body, which would be affecting the potential for cardiovascular disease, so that's the heart. 

So, the liver, which is what Rob asked about. I find it so interesting, the history of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. Vanessa are you familiar with it? How basically it like wasn't a thing and so doctors would think that-- well, it was a thing, but it wasn't a realized thing, so doctors for a while, a lot of doctors would think that patients were just lying about not drinking. 

Vanessa Spina: No, I didn't know that was a thing. That's absolutely hilarious. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh okay, so I'm glad-- not that I'm glad that you didn't know that. 

Vanessa Spina: Story time. 

[laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Not that I'm glad you didn't know that. But when I was saying it, I was like, I feel like everybody knows this. Not to say that it's bad that you didn't know. It just I'm glad you didn't know it. Okay, so because basically, the primary cause of liver failure and psoriasis historically was always alcoholic liver disease. And patients started coming in with markers of psoriasis, but they would say they weren't drinking. And so, I know this is a thing because I've just read this so many different places and Peter talks about it in his book seeing it, that the doctors would just think the patients were lying like, clearly they are drinking because they have psoriasis. But what it ended up being was nonalcoholic fatty liver disease which is why that word is defined in the negative, because they're saying, "Oh, it's not alcoholic fatty liver disease. It's just fatty liver disease, not from alcohol." And it's from fatty liver from our diet today honestly.

And nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is actually the primary cause leading to liver failure and the need for a liver transplant. So, it's a huge issue. And a sad thing about it is that it's relatively silent. You wouldn't know-- You know compared to things like brain issues like we'll talk about with memory loss and dementia and cognition or even like blood sugar issues with cravings and things like that, like fatty liver you're not going to know if you have a fatty liver unless you really check for it. So, the best way really to address nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is to lose weight and clear that liver of fat. And so intermittent fasting can be a great path to that to help reduce the fat levels in the liver. 

And so, there're a lot of different ways. I found an article called The Role of Intermittent Fasting in the Management of Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease, a Narrative Review. They listed quite a few ways, potential mechanisms for how intermittent fasting can benefit those with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. So, some things I already mentioned was the visceral adipose tissue. So that's associated with developing nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and intermittent fasting can help reduce that. They found that specifically having a hormonal profile with low leptin and high adiponectin is protective against nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. And so, there are some studies in intermittent fasting showing that exact profile of low leptin and high adiponectin. That said, some of the studies show just low leptin without the adiponectin effect. So, it might be a little bit nuanced, but there could be something hormonal going on there.

So going back to the gut, like I mentioned earlier, so gut dysbiosis can actually affect how we process choline as well as how we release bile and those effects can have a potentially negative effect leading to or encouraging nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and intermittent fasting can help address that. And in one study, true story, they had mice with gut dysbiosis, it was studying nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and they found that the mice that could not-- this is so fascinating. So, in addition to the visceral adipose tissue affecting nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, the aforementioned white adipose tissue turning to brown fat, so white fat turning to brown fat can potentially be protective against nonalcoholic fatty liver disease.

They found in a study that they had mice with gut dysbiosis. They had some mice that were resistant to intermittent fasting. So, the ones that could not do intermittent fasting, their white adipose tissue would not turn into brown fat. This is still fascinating, this is multilayered. So, their white adipose tissue would not turn into brown fat when they could not do intermittent fasting until they did a fecal transplant and then they could. So, that's kind of crazy. So, there's probably a lot going on with both fasting, the gut microbiome, white adipose tissue, brown adipose tissue, and fatty liver. And then just as a little bow on everything. Some studies have found that alternate-day fasting reduces liver enzymes, which are associated with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. So, lot of potential benefits for the liver.

And then the brain. Oh, my goodness, how am I just at the brain? Okay, so fascinating, fun fact about the brain, it represents 2% of our body weight, but accounts for 25% of our resting metabolic rate, which is kind of crazy to think about because we think about all the time, like, "I want to burn more calories," and we really just think about that as, like physical activity, but a quarter of your resting metabolic rate is likely your brain. So, I find that really interesting. So, our brain neurons, they actually have all of the enzymes that aren't required to use ketones to produce energy. So, our brain does require glucose. Our brain cannot only work on ketones. It cannot only work on fatty acids, but it can when glucose is down, it can use ketones as an alternative substrate.

And also, something that's really interesting is, even though the brain accounts for 25%, like I said of our resting metabolic rate, it's really interesting in that it doesn't store any of its own energy. So, like our muscles for example, they store with inside of them energy for that movement. So when you're doing a bicep curl or a tricep curl, your muscle, it's got its energy within the muscle to fuel that movement, which is actually why people think that you have to completely deplete glycogen levels throughout your whole body to enter ketosis, no that's not accurate. You just have to deplete your liver glycogen. Your muscles still have glycogen within them.

The brain does not store any energy, so it's got to rely on what it gets from the blood stream which is partly being determined by your liver, which is why it is important to keep your liver in tip-top shape, so when glucose is down, it can switch to ketones and fuel pretty well on them. So, ketones and BHB specifically, in addition to being a great fuel for the brain, they also have a signaling effect on the brain and they can produce something known as BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, and that is a super important nerve growth factor family in the brain, and so its involved in helping the neurons survive and synopsis functioning and hippocampus neurogenesis, so creating new brain cells there. It's involved in learning, it's involved in memory, it's really really important basically. So, fasting has been shown to up regulate BDNF levels which is great for the brain, we definitely want to encourage that.

Fasting has been shown to reduce inflammation which has beneficial effect on the brain. It has been shown to increase something called PGC-1 alpha which regulates mitochondrial biogenesis, so what that means is that it is in charge creating new mitochondria or I don’t know if it creates it, but it’s in charge of regulating the process of new mitochondria in our brain cells which are basically the energy creating part of the cells, so intermittent fasting encourages that. It encourages something called SIRT3. You guys might have heard me talk about sirtuins and how they relate to longevity, especially if you have listened to any of my episodes with David Sinclair. SIRT3 specifically is neuroprotective. Fasting has been shown to upregulate that. Fasting has been shown as we talk a lot about autophagy on this show, which is the breakdown of problematic proteins in the body and it really helps counteract these damaged and misfolded proteins and that's something that's highly associated with neurodegenerative disease. Although again, huge caveat that there're a lot of debates in that world about cause and-effect, causation, correlation. 

Regardless, fasting-- the autophagy process in fasting, quoting from a study, "Can potentially exert a protective role in neurodegenerative diseases." I will note though that study then went on to talk about how fasted mice-- basically they had an increase of autophagy in their neurons, in their brain cells, but it was not enough to degrade the beta amyloid, which actually increased from fasting due to the enhanced uptake from the, "extracellular space." I read that, literally-- I read that over and over and I was like, I think that's a big deal because it didn't really comment on it beyond that. So, then I went and asked ChatGPT to break it down for me. Not that I really trust ChatGPT very much anymore, but I wouldn't be scared though by that idea, because in general, that study and everything I've read has talked about how the autophagy process tends to beneficial and something that we want. 

Okay, intermittent fasting has been shown to increase GABA, which is the main excitatory neurotransmitter in our brains. So, it's involved in processing information and our excitability factor and also neuroplasticity. So, the ability for our brain to change beneficially and grow and learn, and create new things, it's also involved in learning and memory. And so fasting has been shown to upregulate that. And then to bring it all full circle about at the beginning how I was saying that there are these common effects and everything. So, the effects on the gut microbiome can actually potentially, probably affect the brain, so intermittent fasting has an effect there, as well as-- this is interesting, so more than 80% of patients with Alzheimer's actually have type 2 diabetes or altered fasting blood glucose levels. So, there's probably a huge connection between metabolic health and neurodegenerative disease. Fasting, as we've talked about so much, can have a really really beneficial effect on blood glucose levels. 

And then there've been myriad of studies looking at IF and cognition and a lot of them find increases in cognition, benefits on memory. I have quite a few here, so I'll put a link to them in the show notes. And then just to wrap it all up with a bow-- So, when we think of circadian rhythms, we think of sleep, like, that's what most people think of. But actually, we have peripheral circadian rhythms, so every single organ-- I don't know if every single organ, I should probably fact check that they might. A lot of organs in our body have inherent circadian rhythms within themselves and when those get messed up and not in line with our environment, they can encourage disease processes. That was actually one of the very first things I read when I sat down to research this was how circadian dis-alignment related to nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and how intermittent fasting might benefit that circadian rhythm and benefit nonalcoholic fatty liver disease that way.

But in any case, to tie it all together, intermittent fasting can help with the rhythms-- the circadian rhythms within our organs and help align them so that they will be lined up, essentially, which is really important to ward off disease processes. Ahh, that is all I have to say about that and that's just three organs. Oh, then I was going to say the pancreas. My bonus point for the pancreas was that we know that people hit type 2 diabetes. They get basically-- the pancreas gets worn out from overproducing insulin and so the effects of intermittent fasting to reduce blood sugar levels, reduce insulin levels, I think understandably, can have a profound effect on the pancreas, the health of the pancreas. Now I'm done. Thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: Wow. I'm like absolutely speechless. That was the most comprehensive overview. I think that was a lot more than Rob was bargaining for. What is his question? Because he was just noting that maybe you should look into it or maybe we should look into it. But boy, did you look into it, because that was absolutely incredible. Thank you for sharing all of that. I learned so much. It was so amazing. I think for me, you went through almost every organ, especially the most important ones. With fatty liver, I first got really interested in fasting and fatty liver by Dr. Jason Fung. He had these amazing blogs, I'm sure they're still up there, and articles where he would talk about how you can reverse fatty liver and basically metabolic disease, metabolic syndrome with fasting. And he just explains it so well, but it completely makes sense. I think it's helpful sometimes to hear it from a physician's perspective, especially like a nephrologist or kidney specialist who has so much knowledge and expertise on those organs, so I would definitely point you there if you want to read up more about fasting and fatty liver because he just covers it so so well. But I don't think you're going to need anything else after the way that Melanie just answered that question. So, yeah, that was absolutely amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. And thank you for pointing that out. We should do a deep dive on the kidneys. I feel like they're so underappreciated. And I find it really interesting that a lot of the doctors that I really really respect are nephrologists like Dr. Fung, Rick Johnson. And I just feel like people don't talk about the kidneys that much. But those doctors, they learn so much about-- I feel like they realize things, like Dr. Fung and Rick. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And it's just always so refreshing to hear traditionally or conventionally trained MD's talk about these alternatives that we're super into, like time restricted eating, intermittent fasting. Of course, there's so much research supporting it as well now, but not every single doctor is open to it, to these kinds of things, so it's always refreshing when someone as brilliant as Dr. Rick Johnson or Dr. Jason Fung. They explain it so well and they're both so good at explaining things and making them easy to grasp. So, yeah, some more great resources there. Because sometimes, especially family members, need to see things written by a doctor to fully-- Also, because they explain things so well, but that's just another resource there.

But I agree with you. I mean, the whole body-- it really comes down to the whole body because I think of our body as trillions of cells and then those cells making up different tissues, and those tissues are organs, and that's what we're made of. So, it's interesting how it can affect organs individually, especially organs that are not at homeostasis. But the body has this incredible program which is homeostasis and oftentimes not in every situation of course, there's definitely genetic conditions, as you mentioned earlier, and disease conditions, pathologies. There're definitely situations where you need pharmaceuticals, medical intervention, conventional medical care, especially with acute injuries and pain. I'm so thankful that we have the medical care that we do.

But there're also situations where if the disease is or the pathological state like nonalcoholic fatty liver is caused by lifestyle, that a lifestyle approach can help reverse it and can help just restore homeostasis just by us getting out of the body's way and fasting. To me, there's no better way of doing that than with fasting. You're literally just getting out of your body's way and letting it heal and go back to homeostasis, which is its prime directive and we often take it off course with different approaches, so I think fasting is such a powerful restorative tool and intermittent fasting especially. So, thank you for that comprehensive overview. 

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. Thank you for listening. It was very long and that's just like the--

Vanessa Spina: Tip of the iceberg. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's so much that's just like what I found briefly. So, yeah, thank you for the question, Rob, and this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email question@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode342. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl.

And oh, I did launch an Instagram account for my AvalonX supplement line and I'm going to do fun giveaways and things like that on there. I actually like-- by the time this airs, it'll be way long gone, but I actually right now have a giveaway on it. MD Logic is releasing a vitamin D capsule supplement and so I'm doing a promotion, giving away 10 bottles of that before it launches. So that was on the Instagram, so hopefully you're following that. And so that handle is @avalonxsupplements because AvalonX was taken. So, yes, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: I think that's everything. I'm excited for the next episode and more wonderful questions from listeners. 

Melanie Avalon: Same. Although one last question. We talked all about your protein. How can people get on the email list or get the protein depending on when this airs? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Thank you. So, for Tone Protein, you just go toneprotein.com. And for the Tone Device, you can go to tonedevice.com. So, both of those are pretty easy, self-explanatory, but you can sign up to get the exclusive launch discounts on both Tone Protein and the Tone Device. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, we will put all of that in the show notes. And this has been absolutely magical and I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Talk to you next week. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye 

Vanessa Spina: bBye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Oct 29

Episode 341: Special Guest: Kara Collier, CGMs, Glucose Control, Calibration, Placement, Types Of Sensors, Nocturnal Hypoglycemia, Fructosamine, Finding Patterns, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 341 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

.LMNT: The Days Of Rationing Down To Your Last Stick Pack Are Over – Grapefruit Salt Is Here To Stay. For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At Melanieavalon.Com/Emfemaillist!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter, And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: Grapefruit Salt is here to stay. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At Melanieavalon.Com/Emfemaillist!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #130 - Kara Collier

Kara's Personal Story

Listener Q&A: Arietta - My doctor said a CGM would just confuse me. How do I make an appeal to her?

Listener Q&A: Ana - Is a 2 week trial period long enough to get a picture of how your body responds to the foods you eat?

how does a CGM measure interstitial fluid?

Listener Q&A: Jill - Deep dive into the actual accuracy…

Listener Q&A: Nisha - I was so confused by the difference between finger prick blood draw...

Listener Q&A: Linda - My blood testing is always 20 -30 points higher then nutrisense...

Listener Q&A: Debby - When doing whole body cryotherapy is it ok to be wearing a CGM in the chamber?

how often does the device collect data?

Listener Q&A: Alison - Is it possible to wear a CGM on another area of the body?

Listener Q&A: Maureen - it always takes about 1day or 2 to calibrate correctly and during that time I get low level alarms going off...

Listener Q&A: Jill - What is the optimal 24-hr average glucose?

Listener Q&A: Benoit - Assuming I wore one for 3 months, would that mean I can calculate my HbA1C (or get a good correlation)?

the insights tab

Listener Q&A: Nancy - I have a CGM device but I am finding it hard to interpret and make use of my readings.

Listener Q&A: Caroline - Is it more important to track insulin than blood glucose as I’ve heard on some podcasts?

Listener Q&A: MaryJane - In your opinion, what’s the greatest benefit to using a CGM? Besides big spikes or big drops in blood sugar what are other patterns of concern to look out for? 

Listener Q&A: Margaret - If blood glucose is shown to be relatively stable (no major spikes) with a CGM what is the next step to assess if weight loss is the goal?

Listener Q&A: Jill - I recently heard some discussion of the dawn phenomenon….

Listener Q&A: Xenia - What to do with the information?

Listener Q&A: Jackie - What is the initial cost of the CGM and continuing cost for supplies and monthly membership? 

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 341 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 341 and I'm Melanie Avalon. I am here today with a very special guest. I have been looking forward to this, friends, for so long. So something that we talk about all the time on this show, like, all the time, is CGMs also known as-- well, continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs, which are devices that you put on your body, and they give you a picture of your blood sugar levels measured through interstitial fluid, which I'm sure we'll talk about, essentially 24/7 for a two-week period when you're doing a program. And me and honestly all of the cohosts that we've had on this show, Gin, Cynthia, and now Vanessa, we are all huge fans of CGMs. We've worn them multiple times. And that's just because it's really one of the only ways to get an actual picture of how your food is literally affecting you in that moment, how your fasting is affecting you, your exercise. It's just so incredibly eye opening. 

And so we've partnered for quite a while now. My favorite brand in the continuous glucose monitor space to make them accessible to people like us, because historically, you needed to be diabetic and have a prescription from your doctor is a company called NutriSense. We love NutriSense. So they provide access to CGMs. You get the CGM, you get the CGM app, the NutriSense app. It helps you interpret your data, and it's just really an easy process, an eye-opening process. I am obsessed with it. So I knew we had to have the co-founder on this show. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice, actually. So I will put links to that in the show notes. But I have here now with me. And I also gathered a cacophony of listener questions from you guys. You had so many questions, so we're going to go through those. But I am here with Kara Collier. Again, like I said, the co-founder of NutriSense, and she is now the VP of Health at the company, and she is awesome. So, Kara, thank you so much for being here. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited to chat.

Melanie Avalon: I am too. I've been looking forward to this for so long, especially because, like I said, we haven't had a full discussion about CGMs on this show. When I asked for questions, I got really excited because I got so many. A few of them had never occurred to me, which was I'm really excited to ask those. So to start things off, your personal story, what led you to co-founding NutriSense? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. So I first tried a CGM probably about three years before founding NutriSense. So at this point, probably eight years ago kind of where I started, I'm a dietitian by trade and I started in a traditional clinical nutrition world. So I was working in hospitals with pretty sick patients, mostly ICUs. So I was seeing a lot of people come in with complications of diabetes, complications of uncontrolled heart disease, complications of uncontrolled kidney disease. What you see in the ICU is a lot of suffering, pain, time spent, expenses, all of this happening that you realize really didn't ever need to happen in the first place. So I was trying to make a difference in people's lives. I was trying to help them with lifestyle changes, with nutrition, with counseling and it was the wrong time and place to be really intervening in the way that I wanted to. 

So eventually I went to a different startup, but was really mulling on this problem that I felt like I was seeing in the clinical world. And at that point, I had worked with patients who wore CGMs, primarily type 1 diabetics and occasionally a type 2 diabetic. And I realized how powerful they were for that audience. But I started to get really curious about trying them, both on myself and others. So I got a hand on a couple, which, as you mentioned, was very hard to do at the time. It took me convincing some of my physician friends to get them. I realized even being really nerdy in the metabolic health and nutrition world and having learned a lot about the topic. When I wore one, I learned so much about myself that you just can't know without the data. That was my first moment where I was like, “Oh, wow, these are powerful tools and not just for managing your diabetes.” 

So then I started putting them on my friends, my family to see what their experiences were like, and I found it was powerful for almost any type of situation that person was in. And that's when I got really excited about the technology and I realized how difficult it was to get them. And then also the app that comes with the device normally is pretty useless. It basically just tells you your glucose value and it's meant for your physician to look at it and dose your insulin accordingly. So I realized for this to be useful for consumers, you needed a completely different app experience. So from there, I actually just stumbled upon through friends of friends, my two other co-founders, both of which come from a technical background and a finance background, and they were looking for somebody who had the nutrition subject matter expertise, and they had a very similar thesis for the business. We just totally meshed and got along really well. We had the same values for how we wanted to create a business, and we just started doing it and going for it, and then suddenly, we had customers and suddenly we had more customers and then we’re like, “Should we quit our day job?” So it really just took off. And that was a little over, that was about four and a half years ago now.

Melanie Avalon: I'm having to stop myself because I would love to have just a two-hour conversation about the entrepreneurial aspect of this, and product development, and creating the app, but I will not go down that route. Wow. So incredible. I'm just curious. The first time you got it from your doctor, we actually had a question talking with doctors about CGMs. So I'll just make a really quick two-part question. Arietta asked, she said, “My doctor said a CGM would just confuse me. How do I make an appeal to her?” My little random question is, when you did first get your CGM, did you have a practitioner that listened to you and was open to prescribing it, or how did you do that? And then what would you say to Arietta’s question about doctors just being a little bit skeptical about CGMs? 

Kara Collier: So for me, my situation was probably a little unusual and it might not be as helpful for everyone else. Since I worked in the healthcare setting, I had friends in the hospital system. So they weren't my doctor specifically, but they were willing to just give it to me as colleagues essentially. So if you have an in in the healthcare world, that's one route. But if you're trying to convince your doctor-- I get this question a lot and it's very difficult. This is part of the reason we created the company. So obviously, a small plug for NutriSense will take care of this problem for you, but if you really want to go through your doctor because you might be able to get a cheaper sensor that way, which I totally understand, I'd rather have everybody wearing it in some way than using NutriSense necessarily. One point to explain is that there's a lot of research and information out there now. So you can even use the blogs and the content on NutriSense's website, other websites, these podcasts to try to make sense of the data. That's part of what we try to do in our app for you. But if you aren't using our app, you will have to do a little bit of learning on your own. But many people are completely capable of doing that. 

But the other thing to help educate your physician is that awareness is really the first step to health. We don't know what we don't know and we need the right tools and information in order to understand if we're where we think we are. We can dig into the traditional glucose metrics, if you'd like, but they only tell us a little bit. So there's a lot of research out there showing how the first signs of glucose dysregulation or deviation typically happens in that post-meal period, so that postprandial glucose response. So our glucose spikes, how we respond to meals, the fluctuations throughout the day, what's called glycemic variability, which is those swings in our glucose. There's a lot of research to indicate that those two things which you can only understand if you're measuring it 24/7 through a CGM are much earlier warning signs of insulin resistance, metabolic dysfunction. And so if you can understand what's happening with those data points, you can make sure you're in really good metabolic health before you ever even get to deviations in the more traditional metrics. 

So from a preventative lens, it's really the route to go. It also really helps drive behavior change, which we can dig a lot more into. But data is powerful, especially real time data. So even just the benefit of something like a Step Tracker like we have our Apple Watch or our Garmins or our Oura Rings, these really help us stay accountable to the things that we might know already, which is maybe I should walk more or I should do some mindfulness practice. But having that data that comes back at you in real time helps you stay accountable. That's another powerful reason for the CGM alone is to really help you be able to make the behavior changes that you know you might need to do that you might struggle doing. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that so much. It's something that's so hard to communicate until you experience it. But the level of accountability that I think it can bring to people because once you finally see it in real life, see this graph of what you're doing and how it's affecting you, it makes it real to you. I think it makes your food choices and your lifestyle choices, real. [giggles] You understand what's happening.

Kara Collier: Exactly. It's so different when you have the data. Even then, when you aren't wearing a CGM anymore and you don't have the data in front of you, having seen it at some point in time really does still drive behavior change in the future. So you don't necessarily have to wear it forever to have that really powerful behavior change impact. So it's pretty incredible. And then of course, there's the aspect that we're all different. We have different unique responses to food, to activities, and we're not all the same exact person. And so there are some things that are just unique to me that nobody else is going to respond in that way. I don't know that information unless I see the data and I test it out. And so learning those type of just bio-individuality really helps you to be empowered to make decisions that are right for you specifically.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to I love what you just said about how having seen how you react to things, you remember that in the future even when you're not wearing a CGM. So what I often say is I really wish that everybody in the world could wear CGM, at least just once because like I said, it lasts two weeks. But then beyond that, I know with NutriSense, you guys have a really great subscription program, so people can do it longer. Anna or Anna, probably Anna, she wanted to know, “Is a two-week trial period long enough to get a picture of how your body responds to the foods you eat?” So that two weeks, what can people realistically get value wise from that? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. We recently changed our lowest option from that two-week to the one month, so you get two sensors. If you're a previous customer and you've had the two-week trial from us in the past and you just want one more sensor, we will do that happily. But if you're a brand-new customer and you've never been with us before, our lowest tier now is one month, so two sensors again. We primarily did that because we really feel like a month is the minimum amount of time to be really helpful. There are exceptions to this for the person who's really knowledgeable. So somebody who maybe lives and breathes these topics as their primary day job, you might be able to have two weeks and you get away with it and you learn most of what you need to learn. But for a lot of people a month is really helpful. You might not even wear them back to back. You might do the one month and have the two sensors and wear one and then wait a couple of weeks and then wear the other one. 

But we think having closer to that 30 days of data is that sweet spot for the minimum amount of information, because ideally what you want to do is at least, first, test your baseline information. So what are your normal day to day habits doing to your data? Because we want to know-- It's really interesting when people are like, “Oh, I want to try my favorite treat that I only have once a month.” That's fun. But what we really want to know is how is your daily routine affecting you? Because that's what's most impactful on your overall health. So we want people to not change anything. Then based on what you're learning, maybe you're seeing that there's one meal in particular in your regular routine that really is resulting in a high glucose spike. So then you might want to experiment with a couple of different variations of that meal until you land on something that's working really well for you, and then maybe trying some of the more fun things that you don't do necessarily every day. To really get that information and takeaway, I think two sensors is a sweet spot.

Melanie Avalon: Because there's a lot more questions, but could you briefly explain, because I mentioned this in the intro, so it's not actually measuring your blood. How is it working with measuring the interstitial fluid? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, good question. So the CGM is actually measuring, like you mentioned, what is called your interstitial fluid. This is part of the reason that the sensors are so painless and you really don't notice them. So to answer the question that I know will come to is, does it hurt? It really doesn't. You put the device on at home, so it's not something that you need to get inserted. It has a small needle for insertion. But what that needle is placing is a little tiny microfilament, that's flexible, no needle that stays just below the surface of the skin. And what that microfilament is then picking up on is that the glucose in your interstitial fluid. What that is is essentially the fluid in between your cells. So you're not even going to the depth of your blood vessels, which is why it's really shallow, really painless. And how the interstitial fluid works essentially is just like normal diffusion. So let's say you eat a gummy bear, and that gummy bear gets immediately digested into glucose because it's basically pure sugar. And then it's going to go into your blood glucose first, and then it's going to diffuse into that interstitial fluid. 

So if we're not eating anything, if our glucose levels are relatively slowly shifting, then blood glucose and interstitial values pretty much match exactly. But if you ate something, let's say you ate 50 gummy bears, and your glucose spiked really high really quickly, you will see that reflected in your interstitial fluid usually like 15 minutes to 30 minutes later. So there's that slight delay with these sharp changes in your glucose, but it is reflected in the same way. It just needs to be diffused into that space. 

Melanie Avalon: So actually, speaking to that, we had quite a few questions about comparing it to blood glucose and the accuracy. This was a really interesting question. So from Jill, she wanted to know about the accuracy, and she said, “She was shocked when she researched the allowable variance from a blood draw or a finger prick.” And then she said, “Do factors like inflammation significantly affect accuracy? Since interstitial fluid may be higher in someone with higher inflammation, I believe this is the reason they have not been studied in pregnancy.” Do you have thoughts on that? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, that's a great question. So just to address accuracy broadly, like she's mentioned, so these are FDA-approved medical devices. So there are two main manufacturers who create the CGMs, Dexcom and Libre, and both are FDA approved. But what the FDA does allow is essentially a 15% variation from what you might get at a lab draw 95% of the time is what FDA deems to be acceptable accuracy. But how this works, typically, is there's a difference between the precision and then the absolute value. So usually, if it is off within that 15%, let's say, it's at that high end of what's acceptable. So let's say your CGM readings are reading 15% higher than if you had the equivalent glucose value drawn from a blood value and that's different than a finger prick. I'm talking like a lab draw. 

Then what happens is it stays pretty consistently 15% higher though. So it's not going to be shifting constantly on the CGM readings. It's the absolute value might be off. So one thing that we do allow in our app is the ability to calibrate each sensor to get it closer to that true absolute value. But the thing that is nice, if you don't have a recent lab value to calibrate with is that those changes in glucose are very precise. And so it's still very useful to understand that my fasting glucose is resting 10 points higher than it was yesterday, what did I do differently? Or, my glucose shot up 80 points with that meal, what was in that meal that I need to change potentially? 

Then the source of the inaccuracy, that's an interesting question with pregnancy. The reason from my understanding from the manufacturers that it hasn't been necessarily approved with pregnancy is because there's such large fluid shifts that happen during pregnancy. So it's kind of a fluid balance thing rather than an inflammation thing. I haven't heard that or read that anywhere with the inflammation aspect. Most likely you're going to be having a similar level of inflammation throughout the body that's impacting both levels. But the accuracy issue is more related to like I guess, the enzymatic reaction that happens within the sensor itself. Sometimes it can be a little off, but again, it's that change in glucose and that precision that is really useful and stable. 

Melanie Avalon: You just said like, if an enzymatic reaction, why would it be so stable but off? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. It's very hard to find the answer to this. So I will say it is hard to find the answer. We've spoken with the manufacturers who make the devices. We have read all of their studies. What they have done though is they've done clinical tests that you need all of this data to get FDA approval. That's where we know that the precision is very good because what they do is they have people wear it and they do these blood draws over and over throughout the 14 days to make sure that it is more of the absolute value that is off rather than the variation between the values. So we do know that from the studies that have been done. But the reason why is hard to get a firm, clear answer. 

What they typically say is that it has to do with placement. What we have found anecdotally is that people who are really, really lean and have less body fat tend to have more variation from that baseline. And so it might just have to do with the placement and where that microfilament ends up sitting is my theory. That's what I meant about the enzymatic reaction that's happening on that little microfilament. If it happens to be placed a little strangely, it might be slightly more off than others. What is interesting for me is I have only had maybe one sensor out of 100 that I've ever needed to calibrate. So for some people, it seems to just always be spot on every single time. Whereas for some people it seems like it's like, “Oh, every time I need to adjust it by 10.” So it seems to almost be relatively consistent with people, which is another just purely anecdotal observation we've had. 

Melanie Avalon: I can share my experience because I don't know, I was just thinking how many I've done. I've probably done maybe like 15 or so rounds. I think I've had to calibrate probably three times or four times. Actually, the last time I did it, that was the only time where-- Because I did have the exact experience that you're saying right now, which is once you calibrate it-- Basically what I do is I get the CGM and then you wait-- It's 72 hours that you're supposed to wait for the calibration period. 

Kara Collier: Just that first 24 hours. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, just 24 hours. Okay. I thought it was longer. So 24 hours in the beginning where it might be off, which by the way, do you know why that is? 

Kara Collier: What is explained again from the manufacturers is it's self-calibrating during that time. I think a lot of it has to do with just potential damage that has been done with that puncturing. Like, some of that minor inflammation that happens with that needle during insertion and maybe even a little bit of bruising or a little bit of bleeding interferes with that at first until it clears out. 

Melanie Avalon: That was Peter Attia’s theory. I heard him saying that on a show and I was like, “I wonder if that’s--" Okay. That's exciting to hear that. Yeah, so basically what I do is I have that 24 hours where I'm not judging. I have, at home, a finger prick and a glucometer and I will check it against that. With the recommendations and maybe you can elaborate on this, but when you're checking it, you want to make sure that you're still and not eating and not moving around a lot. Basically, being in that state, like, Kara was saying earlier in the show, where the blood should mostly be matching the interstitial fluid anyways because there's not that time delay. 

Kara Collier: Right. You want to be stable.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So I make sure I'm in that state and I check it. I'll see if it's off, and then I'll do that a few times, typically, that next day and maybe even the next day if I'm a little bit suspicious. Because actually, before I continue on that train with the glucometers, because that's what I wonder, I'm like, “Well, how do I even know my glucometer is accurate?” And then Nisha, she said, “She was confused about the difference between her finger prick and her CGM.” She said, “Sometimes there is a 30-point difference within three minutes when I took 10 blood pricks as an experiment. I also read that the finger prick blood draw sugar can vary depending on the finger and the amount of blood, but I'm not certain.” So question there, if we are even comparing it to our glucometer at home, how do we know if our glucometer is accurate, and does the finger matter, and how do we figure that out? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. That's the biggest challenge with this is that the glucometers that you can buy over the counter, you can get online. They also have their own accuracy issues. So they are susceptible to the same accuracy guidelines. As she said, you could do an experiment where you can probably prick each of your fingers or same finger multiple times, and you're not going to get the same exact number every time. What I recommend is that people use their latest fasting blood glucose value that they got from a lab draw if it is recent. So again, if it's not recent and you do have a glucometer, you can use that as a general gauge, especially if you think it might be really off and adjust that, but just know that it's not a perfect measure either. 

So what we don't want people getting too obsessed with is pricking their finger 10 times every day for the whole 14 days and constantly readjusting it because that's just going to drive your stress levels up. And so getting it, adjusting it a little if you think it needs to be, and then really paying attention to those trends. And then I recommended-- a very, very minimum, people get labs every year as well. So at least at that annual basis, double checking what your most recent fasting glucose level was as a baseline for that information. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So to clarify about that, you're saying, if somebody has a CGM and they're not pricking their finger, they can look at the fasting levels from the CGM compared to a blood test they had a while ago for their fasting blood sugar levels? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. We recommend, assuming that what we'll ask our customers when we're talking them through this is, if they've had a fasting glucose level from a lab draw that's in the last six months, if they haven't had major lifestyle changes since, we'll just use that as a general baseline. If it's older than that or if in that six months you've made major lifestyle changes, you've lost a lot of weight, you've changed your dietary habits, then it's probably not that useful as a baseline. But for example, I just put a sensor on yesterday, and I got a lab draw done three weeks ago. So I'm just using that fasted glucose value from that lab draw is my source of truth to adjust if I need to adjust my CGM. But if you don't have that, you can do the finger prick, and just keeping in mind that we're using that as a general proxy and not as a gold standard. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Would people if they're doing that, would they probably--? Especially because a lot of our listeners are intermittent fasters, so they might have various eating and fasting windows. I'm assuming if they go that route, they would want to look-- Yeah, it should be on there. They would want to look at the time of the blood draw and probably compare it similarly to the fasted time on the CGM?

Kara Collier: Yeah. Just making sure, you should be fasted going into the lab draws, so making sure both times you're in a fasted state that it's a general same time of day. So typically, they'll want to do labs more towards the first half of the day because it's required to be fasting. So matching that is a good best practice. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. This is just random. I tend to go into labs. I'm always like the last appointment of the day, and I always get the same question. I can't tell you how many times. They'll be like, “Oh, we actually can't draw this lab because we have to be fasted.” I'm like, “I am fasted.” [laughs] 

Kara Collier: Yeah, that's happened to me too. Yeah. [laughs] They can't fathom it. 

Melanie Avalon: No, they'll just assume that I ate. I'm like, “No, it's fine. You can do it.” [giggles] So I'm curious. In your experience, because you said you've done it 100 times or so, the last time I did one-- I don't want to scare people away from them because, like I said, the majority of the time, they haven't needed any calibration, and when they did, it was off by 10 or maybe 20, and then it was fine. The last time I had one, I think are there some that are lemons? Basically, I adjusted it and it needed to be calibrated, for sure. So I calibrated it. Then I think it went back to being accurate without calibration. So then it was like way off. I gave up on it two thirds of the way through. I was like-- [giggles] So does that happen with people ever? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. What we see typically, and this is similar from what the manufacturer's data is as well is about 2% of sensors are just like lemons, like you said. And in those instance, if you reach out to us, we'll replace them for free, because we do know just like every once in a while, for whatever reason, bad sensor. Sometimes it'll just not read at all or sometimes it looks really wacky. Again, it tends to be about 2% of the sensors and we'll replace them happily. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. Yeah. I think for mine, in the beginning it was way high, so I had to really adjust it lower, but then I think it got back to normal. So then it said I was basically dying from hypoglycemia. So I was like, “I don't know what to do with this.” 

Kara Collier: Yeah. In those instances, we would replace that sensor for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, that's great to know. Linda wants to know, she says, “I have another two weeks with a second CGM waiting because I have a salt water pool and it says you can't go in salt. So I couldn't swim for two weeks, plus I'm going to the ocean. So now I will probably purchase in the fall or winter, not the summer.” So is that a concern, the salt water? 

Kara Collier: Typically, we recommend not being immersed in it for more than 30 minutes at a time as just a best practice. But what we have found is there's always people who are like, “No, I'm not going to follow that rule.” [giggles] When they cover it with the bandage that comes with it, most people are okay because we do have people who do like the open ocean swimming, open water swimming in some of the saltwater, and they'll do it for longer than 30 minutes. Nine times out of 10, the sensor is fine, but you are putting at a slightly higher risk of just getting water logged and malfunctioning. So the official recommendation is to not be submerged for more than 30 minutes at a time. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. And then this is one I think I asked you about before. I am still perplexed by this because it seems that-- Oh, although I had a theory about it, which I will ask you, but whole-body cryotherapy. Debbie wants to know, “When doing whole body cryotherapy, is it okay to be wearing a CGM in the chamber?” I know what I see when I wear it is that it spikes way high when I'm in the chamber, like way high. Then I get out, and then it progressively goes lower throughout the day. I was always wondering if it was just the cold freaking it out or if it was a massive dump of liver glycogen. But I'm guessing it's just the cold. What are your thoughts on that? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. Most likely it's just the cold. And so you can wear it in both-- any type of cold therapy, but also any type of heat therapy. So sauna, you can wear the sensors. It's not going to break it, but you might get that extreme response in the moment because there is just like a normal operating temperature for the sensors that probably when the manufacturers made this, they weren't expecting people to be in extreme temperatures. So in those instance, it might just have that higher response. What we know from research in cold therapy is that, usually, you're not having that huge glucose response in reality. Typically, actually, cold exposure will drop your glucose levels, which is usually what people see once they get out of the actual temperature exposure, and the sensor is back in normal temperatures, you'll start to see that glucose drop like you said you saw. 

But with sauna, actually, we do know that individuals have a higher glucose response in reality during the actual sauna exposure. So it's not just that the sensor is reacting to those high temperatures, but it's also that glucose tends to rise in that moment. But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. This usually has to do with the fact that it's like exercise. So your body is working harder, especially in a sauna, and that's causing the glucose to go up a little bit, and it's also a lot of to do with that fluid distribution. So part of it can be a little bit of acute dehydration that's happening. But just like exercise, when we see glucose rise during exercise, we see glucose values lower overall after the sauna and that long-term benefit of sauna use is lower glucose values overall. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. Yeah, the realization I had related to it, so the device itself, is it gathering information every five minutes that it's actually taking a reading? 

Kara Collier: Yes, every five minutes. Correct. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. The moment I had where I was like, “Oh, this is definitely the cold, not a moment is,” it would only happen because the session is three minutes. So sometimes the session-- that reading check would not happen during the cryotherapy. And in that case, I didn't see any spike on my readings. So that's when I was like, “Okay, so it definitely has to be definitely the cold since there's like no residual stuff going on there.” Just a comment before I forget on, whether or not it's painful. It's funny. So I have a lot of videos. People can check out my Instagram, a lot of videos of putting on CGMs and how to put them on. I think it's one of the things that is the biggest difference between how it looks like it's going to feel versus how it feels, like it looks very scary. 

Kara Collier: It's a little intimidating. Yeah, your first time you do it's a little intimidating. 

Melanie Avalon: Like, the needle looks really scary, but it's just so funny. I think it's funny because I have a video with my friend and I putting them on, and her reaction because you literally don't even feel it. So it's funny to see people's reactions about, because they're anticipating it being painful, but it's really not. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, they're wincing, and then it happens, and then they're like, “Oh.” Yeah, the reactions are great. 

Melanie Avalon: Also, speaking of the placement, so can you explain exactly where to put it? We got a lot of questions about that. So, Jill wanted to know, “Where to put it on her body?” Allison wanted to know, “Is it possible to wear a CGM on another area of the body?” She says she has lymphedema in both arms, and she wants to avoid potentially introducing an infection. And then Nancy said that she wears hers on her abdomen, so placement. 

Kara Collier: Yeah. Again, there's the two manufacturers. We are starting to integrate with both, but we primarily use Abbott Libre. And with the Libre, they have only clinically tested and approved for it to be on the back of the arm, so either arm. And that's just the placement that they have done all of their clinical studies on, all of their accuracy data is with that placement. So that is the only recommendation for the Libre, where the Dexcom has been clinically tested on both the back of the arm and the abdomen. So those are approved for both of those use cases. But again, not everybody listens to the official rules, and we have seen people put it all over. So we've seen people put on their abdomen, their thighs, their butts, they put it in different places, and it typically, 99% of the time works okay, but it is not an official recommendation on our end. So if the sensor malfunctions and it's in a weird spot, that's a risk you take. But the official recommendation for the standard sensor we use the Libre is the back of the arm. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it the fattiest part of the back of your arm? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, that's what we recommend. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: I would be interested putting it on-- If you're putting on a much more fattier area, I just find it interesting that do people see a bigger lag time? 

Kara Collier: Typically, people see that it looks about the same. Our sample size of people putting it in strange places is much smaller than but with the arms, so it's a little bit hard to tell. But we haven't seen anything that's been a noticeable difference for those who are deviating there. 

Melanie Avalon: So right now, are you using both versions or just the FreeStyle? 

Kara Collier: Not yet, but we are currently working on the integration to be able to offer both Dexcom and Libre. And then one thing that will be coming soon is that we'll be having a membership plan. So if you have your own sensors, you can just have a onetime annual fee to use our app, and access to our dietitians, and bring your own sensor. And so that is part of the reason we want to be integrated with all the different sensors out there is to give people that flexibility. In case maybe you did get the sensors yourself, but you want the better app experience and what comes with the sensor. We're working towards providing those various flexible options for people to use it.

Melanie Avalon: My hesitancy with the non-FreeStyle Libre options, I don't know when they introduced this, but I'm concerned about EMF exposure. And so the Bluetooth aspect, when was that a nonnegotiable with a Dexcom? Which version do you know? 

Kara Collier: I can't remember when they switched, but it's been a while. It's been at least two generations of Dexcom sensors are Bluetooth. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So I wish they would have an airplane mode. I'm just like putting it out there. I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, that's why I've been definitely preferentially at present choosing the FreeStyle Libre. I'm waiting with bated breath. I'm like, “Don't switch to Bluetooth with mandatory only Bluetooth.”

Kara Collier: Yeah. I will say that the version of Libre that has been released in Europe but not the US is a Bluetooth version. Yeah, it seems to be the trend, but we'll see what happens in the US. It's much different ground-- playing field here. 

Melanie Avalon: So this will speak to how much I believe in CGMs. All of that said, because listeners know how intense I am about EMFs. I'm actually launching an EMF blocking product line. It's so important to me. That said, if the only option was Bluetooth only, I still think everybody should do at least one round of it. So friends, that is how important. That is how amazing and life changing I think CGMs are. So one other question about numbers that might be a little bit off when you're sleeping. I know people sometimes experience issues. So Maureen said that, “She gets low level alarms going off in the middle of the night when she knows her glucose is not dangerously low.” Is there anything she can do about that is? 

Kara Collier: Yes. Well, first, I will say the alarms are, what I would consider a very annoying feature associated only with Bluetooth and Dexcom. So there will be no annoying alarms with the Libre's and the NutriSense experience. But what does happen sometimes is that if people are putting a lot of pressure while they're sleeping on the sensor, it can cause your glucose levels from the CGM readings to artificially dip really low. And the reason you'll know if this is real or not is if it's a really sharp dip, let's say your glucose levels were floating pretty stably at 70 and then you see this sharp dip for just like one reading or two readings to 30 and then back up to 70, it was probably you just laying on it funky. 

Where some people really, truly do have nocturnal hypoglycemia, but the pattern looks a lot different. You'll see a more smooth dip that stays a little longer and almost always, 9 times out of 10, if somebody's having nocturnal hypoglycemia, it's associated with symptoms. So during that hypoglycemic moment, they are sweating, they're waking up, they're having that hypoglycemic symptom. Sometimes people will have nightmares, typically. If it's that just like sharp, really quick dip and you didn't wake up at all, you slept like a baby, it's probably just sensor pressure that's causing that dip. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. I definitely experience the pressure experience with mine.

Kara Collier: We tend to see that, really lean people see that more. So that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, got you. Side sleeper here. I'm actually doing an episode in the next few months with a guest who hopefully will convince me to start sleeping on my back. 

Kara Collier: It's so hard though. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: No, I still have his Neck-- I think it's called like the Neck Nest or something. It's a pillow to make you sleep straight. I haven't even started doing it yet, but we'll see. Okay. So as far as actually interpreting the data, we got a lot of really, really great questions about this. Where to start? So just a really simple question. Jill wants to know, “What is the optimal 24-hour average glucose?” 

Kara Collier: Great question. So with average glucose, we recommend as an optimal to be at least at a minimum, below 105 mg/dL. So that's really that upper threshold. We really want people to below it, which equates, if you're thinking about things in terms of a hemoglobin A1c which is that blood metric that captures your average glucose over the last three months, that is a 5.3%. Whereas normal for A1c levels for the official recommendations out there in the medical world are anything under 5.7, which would equal to 117 average glucose, which we believe is too high. So really keeping it below 105. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. I said earlier, there are some questions that never occurred to me. I love this question. This has never occurred to me to ask. So this is from Benoit or Benoit. Hope I'm saying that correctly. He says, “Assuming I wore one for three months, would that mean I can calculate my HbA1c or get a good correlation?” 

Kara Collier: It does. Yes. That's a great question. We do encourage people to do that because A1c isn't actually that perfect all the time. I don't know how much you've discussed this before, but there are a lot of potential errors with the A1c values. I think the latest statistic was that it's about a 40% to 60% sensitivity and 80% specificity with the A1c, which means, it misses a lot of positives that you might identify in like an oral glucose tolerance test or the CGM, and it misses some false negatives too. So, long story short, to say that the A1c typically has flaws because it is based on the assumption that your red blood cells live for 90 days, because it is making the calculation based off of how much glucose is stuck to that hemoglobin molecule for the past 90 days. 

But a lot of people have different red blood cell turnover rates. So sometimes they live longer and sometimes they live shorter. And that might skew that A1c percentage either a little high or a little low. If your A1c is 10%, your glucose is high, hard stop. But if your A1c is 5.5% and you calculated it with the CGM as more closer to 5.4%, that deviation could actually be meaningful to you and probably closer to accurate on the CGM assuming that you are checking in on the calibration there. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. So basically, especially, if you've had historically, a lot of HbA1c tests, this would be a great way to know if-- Again, I understand that factors possibly could change, but it could be a good way to know when you get your future HbA1c data if it tends to skew one way or the other. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about fructosamine? 

Kara Collier: Fructosamine is interesting. So it doesn't have as many flaws as the A1c. Essentially, it's capturing your glucose over the last two weeks as opposed to the three months. It's more reliable if your red blood cell turnover is abnormal outside of that 90 days. So in situations like pregnancy, if we're concerned about glucose levels, they'll more likely to use fructosamine rather than A1c, because red blood cell turnover is all kinds of crazy when you're pregnant. So it's more reliable in that sense. So if you have something like a known issue with your red blood cells, like, there are some genetic conditions where your turnover rate is different, then fructosamine is going to be a much more useful metric for you. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. Maybe now I'll share my HbA1c CGM story. I've shared it quite a few times on this show. It's just so shocking to me, this experience I had, and it further drove home my obsession with CGMs. So historically, I've worn a CGM a lot. The diet I've been following for quite a while now is intermittent fasting. I do one meal a day. And at night, I eat huge amounts of lean protein, lots of fruit, cucumbers. So it's high protein, it's low fat, and that I don't add any fat. It's just lean protein and then tons of fruit. So a pretty big carb load. And so whenever I've worn CGMs in the past, I am always really curious to monitor that spike from that massive fruit intake. I'm usually always good. It doesn't normally go above-- Well, it depends. In the past, it would go up to like 130-ish a little or higher, sometimes even 140. But then with some lifestyle changes, like taking my berberine supplement that I make, it actually was going-- it wouldn't really go above 120. 

Point being also historically, my HbA1c has been usually around 5. Yeah, usually around 5. So I made one change to my eating pattern. I made that change for about a month and I intuitively felt like it was probably a problem. But I wasn't wearing a CGM and I was like, “It's fine. It's all good.” And then I went and got my blood tests and my HbA1c had gone up to 5.8 in a month. I freaked out. I was like, [giggles] “What is happening?”

Kara Collier: It's a big jump. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So I immediately stopped what I was doing, which what I had been doing, and I find this so interesting. I had not changed the amount of food I'd eaten. I was eating the same foods, but I had started heating my fruit because normally I eat the fruit frozen and I realized that when you heat it, it made it taste like dessert, like, pie. So I was just heating the fruit. That's the only change. Same amount of fruit. And so I stopped doing that completely, went cold turkey, went back-- no pun intended, because I literally started eating it frozen again and started wearing a CGM. A month later, it was down to 4.9 again. People keep asking, “Have you tested the heated fruit with the CGM?” So I need to. Because basically, what happened was I was so freaked out by that, I immediately put on a CGM and I immediately stopped cooking the fruit. And so I was too scared to cook the fruit at at all so do it-- Now [laughs] that we're back to normal, I need to do a round with a CGM and just have one night. I also don't want to bring back that habit though, because [laughs] I don't think I will. It's been so eye opening. So I don't know, just stories like that. 

Kara Collier: That's fascinating. I have a similar-- Well, not as similar as in-- it's different, but I had my A1c creep up, but my diet was exactly the same, and I put a CGM on, and my average glucose was higher. I was like, “Oh, the data is right. What is going on?” Tested this, got it back down. But what I realized is so I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and it gets nice and toasty here in the summer. It gets really hot. And so in the summer, I stopped going on walks throughout the day pretty much because you're melt when you go outside. I was still going to the gym, I was still doing intense workouts, but I wasn't moving at all in between my step count, had basically plummeted to nothing and it caused my average glucose to creep up a little bit and my A1c to creep up a little bit. I just wasn't really getting back down into those normal levels. It was just a lot more sedentary throughout the day. Baking that back in, finding ways to move when it was still hot, but just being more mindful and intentional about finding ways to move if I wasn't going outside brought it back down into normal, but very interesting too. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that so much. Yeah, it's like you're like a detective, his magnifying glass. It really helps you find what's going on. I'm curious with the app. Okay. Because for friends, the app has so much data and information in it. Does it have anything making comparisons for the history of your different sensors that you've done as far as how it correlates to time of year? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. So we have an insights tab where you have all of your nerdy analytics and statistics all about your glucose data. So that's going to show your average, that's going to show your peak, it's going to show your glycemic variability. And then you can also compare it to previous time ranges. So you could look at what-- If you just finished 14 days, and let's say the first seven days, you did your normal routine, and the second seven days, you switched things up, you could compare the current seven days to the previous seven days, or you could compare the current month to a previous month. And right now, what we just have is set where it's like the last three months as compared to the three months before that. But what we're working on that will be coming soon is more flexible comparison ranges where you could pick like this exact date range compared to this exact date range. So that will be coming soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. If I were to theorize or hypothesize about mine, I would think that mine is consistently lower in the winter because of the cold exposure. Have you seen any trends with people, or with NutriSense with the data in the app about weather? Yeah, weather. 

Kara Collier: Yeah. We tend to see higher values in the summer for multiple reasons. I think one is hydration tends to be more of an issue in the summer. The other is that people tend to eat higher carbohydrate in the summer than the winter. You've got all the fruit is in season, which is great. I'm not anti-fruit. It sounds like you're not either. But it can be easy to get carried away sometimes, especially if you're not mindful about set meal times. So people, I think, tend to eat a little differently in the summer. Then yeah, the hydration thing, so on average. But at the same time, we do see that. The highest glucose values tend to be around the holidays, which tend to be more stacked in the winter. So don't let the holidays deviate you from your goals. 

Melanie Avalon: I believe that. I've also been very impressed with the app, just, again, how much data there is and the features with those cryo spikes. Once I realized that I was fairly certain they were not real [giggles] that they were just from it being cold, I asked in the app how to get rid of them. Basically, you can go in and you can actually remove a data point. So that was pretty helpful. So we got quite a few questions because I think people are just a little bit overwhelmed by the idea of interpreting all this data. So I'll read a few of the questions. Marla says, “If I'm having to pay out of pocket, what is the best as far as affordable and easy to understand? I'm worried I'll pay for it and have no idea what all of the information means or how to use the data to help myself?” Nancy said, “I have a CGM, but I'm finding it hard to interpret and make use of my readings. Where can I go for support? Are there Facebook groups or functional medicine professionals who can make sense of patterns?” 

Okay. So people who are overwhelmed about-- Actually, I'll read this one. And then also Nancy said, same Nancy, she said that, “She's not been able to discover any patterns or behaviors impacting her glucose readings.” As a low carb eater, she says that, “Her swings have nothing to do with food, but maybe it's exercise, sleep, stress, or other inflammation or illness.” So people who are overwhelmed by the idea of interpreting this data, how can NutriSense help them? 

Kara Collier: Sure. So I'll talk at a high level of how to think about interpreting your data and then specifically what we do at NutriSense to help with that, because maybe you have a sensor and you're not going to use NutriSense. Again, I want you to make the most of the CGM data whether you're using NutriSense or not, because as we both believe it's so powerful. So if you're just looking at the data, you have no idea what to make sense of. I would really think about it in three categories. One is, what is my glucose doing in the fasted state? We really want our glucose levels to below 90 when we're fasted. Ideally closer to that in the 70s, 80s. It's okay to be in the 60s or even lower if you're not having any hypoglycemic events. So many people who are really low carb or doing a lot of fasting and entering ketogenesis will be in those lower values.

So one thing to look at is what's happening when you're fasted. A little bit of fluctuation during that fasted state is totally normal, but you will probably see deviations from day to day and you want to look at that. So let's say, overnight, your glucose values were in the 70s today, but the night before they were 110. So looking at what did I do differently that day versus this day. The second thing you want to look at, are those average glucose values, as we mentioned, really keeping them below 105? You might have good fasted glucose values and never be spiking too high, but your average might be always a little too high, what's happening overall that 24-hour view. 

Then the third component you really want to drill into is what's happening when you eat or when is your glucose spiking. And so for a nondiabetic, we really want to keep glucose below 140 as that upper threshold. We want our bodies to be able to recover from a glucose spike and come back down to pre-meal glucose values within usually three hours or so of eating. If you're doing an eating style like yours, where you're eating one meal a day and it's a much higher volume of food, sometimes it might take maybe closer to four hours, and that would be expected because it's more food, but it's going to be counterbalanced by the point that the rest of the day is very, very low and you're not having those peaks and values throughout the day. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. You answered my question. I was going to ask that. [giggles] 

Kara Collier: [giggles] Yeah. And so those are really what to drill into if you're not sure. And then with the NutriSense app specifically, there're two types of people. There's the person who's like, “I want to know if this is good or bad. Am I okay?” And then there's the other person that's downloading their data, and doing Excel models, and logarithm, mathematic equations to know every deviation. They're really nerdy data people. And so if you really just want to get a general idea, we give you a daily glucose score that takes all of the most important components and scores your day on a 1 to 10 scale, so that you can get a really quick at a glance idea of how your glucose values looked that day. We do the same with meals. So we give meal scores. So if you log a meal in the app, you'll also get a score in that two-hour window after you've eaten of how your glucose response was to the meal. Then, as I mentioned, we have a more detailed view of all of the analytics on a separate tab where you can see the trends, you can see-- it'll tell you that your peak glucose is trending 10% higher this week than last week, it can help you drill down. 

The final thing that we do at NutriSense is we also provide you access to a dietitian. This is a dietitian who has seen a lot of other glucose, data who is well versed in all of the various dietary and lifestyle strategies to help support good glucose values. If you have any questions, you're like, “Why is my glucose doing this? What does this mean?” Those are perfect questions to send over to our dietitians. They're there for as much or as little support as you might like. Some people message their dietitian all day, every day, and some people use them very minimally. So they're there to help you navigate, both interpreting the data and also then creating ideas on how to improve the data or what to do differently, creating goals, holding yourself accountable, so to speak. 

Melanie Avalon: I love it so much. Yeah, I've been personally highly impressed with the dialogue with the dietitians. I personally don't use it as much. I more just go on my own and interpret it. But I've had a lot of friends use it and have told me that their favorite part of the app was that access, like, being able to talk to somebody almost in real time. You can log into the app and chat, and they help you ascertain what's going on and how you might make changes to address it. Do you have thoughts--? This is just my question. I think I asked you this on the other show. But some people doing low-carb diets will have higher resting blood sugar levels. Actually, I'm having Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on the show pretty soon. And in her new book called Forever Strong, she actually talks about this, how she typically sees higher blood sugar levels in people on lower carb diets. But she doesn't think it's an issue. What are your thoughts on that? Does the body know or care if the blood sugar is coming from food versus gluconeogenesis in the liver? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, it's a great question. So it is a phenomenon that we do see typically when people are following very low-carbohydrate diet for an extended period of time. So we usually don't start to see this happen unless someone's been doing it for at least a year. And really what's happening here is adaptation. The body is realizing that it's not getting a lot of glucose from food, so it raises glucose levels a little bit endogenously on its own to make sure that some of these more glucose sensitive organs have that steady stream of glucose available. So usually, what we'll see is that fasted glucose values are a little bit higher. Sometimes they might even be in the high 90s, close to 100, but their glucose levels are really stable throughout the day. There's basically no variability, no ups and down, no spikes. 

And so for me, there's very little research out there to actually pinpoint whether this is a good or a bad thing. But my interpretation of this is that it's most likely perfectly fine, but the things that you would want to double check is, first, to make sure that if you get a fasted insulin level that it is also low. Because for this, we would expect insulin to be low. If it's high, then that means you have an over availability of energy if insulin is high and glucose is high. So insulin should be low in this instance. We still want to make sure that your average glucose values aren't creeping up above that 105 range. So if you're starting to see average glucose values at 110, 115, that's when I start to get a little bit concerned that maybe it's too high, because at that point, you still are having a lot of glucose in circulation that's going to lead to higher glycation events, and that can potentially have negative downstream effects. I have very, very rarely seen that average glucose gets that high in that instance though. So those would be the two kind of parameters I would make sure are still okay. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Is insulin also an interstitial fluid? Like, is there the potential of an insulin monitor, continuous insulin monitor? 

Kara Collier: There're talks that maybe one day, it'll be possible. It's much more complicated because even the lab draw to get-- We don't even have a finger prick insulin because it's a lot different to measure it than glucose is. Glucose is a much more simple metabolite where insulin is a hormone. I have heard that it's possible and it might one day happen, but I would say it's not in the very near future at least.

Melanie Avalon: I got really excited. I didn't realize that there was an HbA1c, like, blood glucometer that you could do at home.

Kara Collier: Which is really interesting. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners. I had James Clement on my other show. He wrote a book called The Switch. I totally forgot about this. There was one time where I got some lab work back and my HbA1c was high a little bit, and I was telling him about it, and he sent me one in the mail. I was so happy. I had no idea that they existed. I pulled it out when I had that 5.8. It was a little bit sad, but we fixed it. So yeah. Actually, Caroline wanted to know, “Is it more important to track insulin than blood glucose as I've heard on some podcasts?”

Kara Collier: I think insulin is incredibly valuable. If a day comes where we get the 24/7 insulin view, it's going to be a game changer. But right now, what's mostly practical at this point in time is to be able to get a fasted insulin level, which I really do recommend people do, just to check that that's good. If you are doing the CGM and your glucose readings are in good place, I'm going to put money on the fact that your fasted insulin levels are also good. But what is really useful is that postprandial or 24/7 view of insulin. But it's not really practical to do that for most people at this point in time because you would need to convince somebody to--

Every once in a while in very more expensive concierge medical clinics, they'll do the oral glucose tolerance test with both glucose and insulin. So for that, you drink a bunch of sugar and you sit there for two hours or three hours, and they draw your blood at every 20 minutes, 30 minutes. That's pretty interesting. But again, that's not practical for most people. So at this point, I would say our best combination is to do that fasted insulin once a year with your regular lab panel and do the CGM every once in a while.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, speaking of postprandial, so earlier, you were saying the two main things to look for would be swings and then that postprandial blood sugar spike after your meal. Mary Jane wanted to know, “Besides big spikes or big drops in blood sugar, what are other patterns of concern to look out for?”

Kara Collier: Of course, the big drops and the big spikes. The other is if you see a really slow, gradual increase in your glucose and it takes a really long time for it to come back down. So we'll typically see this type of pattern in either individuals who are insulin resistant or if you could be metabolically healthy and you have this pattern to something that's really high fat, really high carb. So I'm talking like cheeseburger with French fries and a milkshake. That kind of meal, even in a metabolically healthy person, is going to have your glucose rise really slowly. You're probably not going to see a sharp increase because there's so much fat that's slowing the digestion down. So three hours later you might see the glucose peak and then you might not see it come back down for eight hours. That even if you don't ever reach 140, which you probably won't. A lot of people look at that and they're like, “Oh, maybe that meal wasn't so bad because my glucose never went above 120.” But if you see the curve, it took eight hours for your body to really process all of that and you were probably hungry three hours later though. So then sometimes people are eating again while they're still coming back down.

So a slow return back to baseline is also something you want to look at. That big dip, the reactive hypoglycemia is another thing. And then just those big swings. Even if you're never reaching 130, 140, if you're having a lot of that variability, so that up and down momentum, that's a pattern we want to monitor. There's actually research to show that higher glycemic variability creates more oxidative stress and inflammation than sustained stable high glucose levels, which is really interesting. Yeah. So those big swings are potentially worse than if your glucose was just high but stable. So very interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Is that with the same area under the curve, total blood glucose between those two situations?

Kara Collier: Yeah. So between the two, you could assume that they're having potentially the same average glucose, but one is high and flat and then one has lows and highs, but is up and down. That up and down, even if it's the same average glucose is a lot more detrimental to our health.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's really interesting. Margaret wants to know, speaking of a stable blood sugar level, she says, “If my blood glucose is shown to be relatively stable with no major spikes with the CGM, what is the next step to assess if weight loss is the goal?” So where do we go from there, if it is stable? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. If it is stable, that's great. We also want to make sure it's in that optimal fasted range. So for some people, maybe it's stable, but it's resting at 110 or so. So you really want to look at what it looks like in that fasted state and assess that. And then if all of that looks good, then there might be other things at play outside of glucose that might be hindering your weight loss. So that's where it's important to know that glucose is really insightful. That was a point I was going to make when we were talking about interpreting the glucose values of-- You said that somebody said their diet never causes their spike, but sometimes it's stress or something else. The really useful thing about glucose is not only does it fluctuate in response to our diet, but it also fluctuates in response to our level of activity. In my example, my glucose was creeping up because I was becoming more sedentary, but it also responds to stress, both psychological stress, but also physical stressors like being sick or being in a high pollution area, things that cause our body to be put in that stress state. And then it also responds to our sleep quality and quantity. So it gives us this good overall view of our health and where to pinpoint. But at the end of the day, it's not the only metric that matters. 

So sometimes we can get glucose in a really good spot, and maybe we still need to address other things that aren't reflected in your glucose values to help take weight loss to the next level. And of course, that might end up being really personalized depending on the person. But I would say, majority of the time, if getting your glucose values to a good place will really accelerate weight loss for most people because it helps to unlock some of that more fat burning state, but it also, again, helps people be consistent with the habits that they want to do. It holds people accountable more and we know when we're consistent and we're doing the things that we know work for us, that's when we really start to see results. So that tends to be one of the biggest benefits for long-term weight loss and keeping the weight off is that accountability element.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more because I especially get asked all the time. I'll have a lot of new listeners to, both this show and my other show, and everything. There're so many like ways to go when you finally fall into this health world. I actually got a message on Instagram, a DM, yesterday, I think, and she said that she just found me and she found all my stuff and where to start. Then she actually said in the message, she said, “Would a CGM be the best place to start?” I was like, “Actually, yeah. That's one of the best ways,” because you just immediately can see-- 

Kara Collier: You're going to get that view into the most important element. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Like you said, it's not just food. It's so many other things beyond that. Okay. Two other really quick questions about the data specifically. So Jill said that-- This is interesting. She said, “She heard some discussion of the dawn phenomenon and she heard that it's like a report card of yesterday's activity. How true is this?” And then she says, “CGMs are such a great way to see the detailed data.” Have you heard that before? 

Kara Collier: I haven't. I would say that overnight glucose values and those morning fasted glucose values are indeed a report card for the day before, but I would separate that from the dawn phenomenon. So the dawn phenomenon is a very natural response our body has, where we tend to have a little bit of a glucose spike. I wouldn't even call it a spike, a glucose rise when we wake up. I describe it as our body's natural alarm clock. You wake up and you have a surge of hormones that help wake you up, get you going for the day. And typically, that comes with a little release of glucose value or glucose levels, and then usually it comes right back down. So for a normal person, this might be a rise of 10-ish points. And then within an hour, it's back down to baseline values. This is really normal. 

What you'll see with a diabetic is that because their body is no longer insulin sensitive, they have the same dawn phenomenon response, except their glucose rises maybe 50 points and it stays high. It never goes back down. So this phenomenon was really created in response to looking at diabetics glucose values because this is a problem for them. They have really high morning glucose values despite doing nothing differently, basically. But in healthy people, we see a really minor one and it's not a big deal. But when you're looking at your fasted glucose values and your overnight glucose values, really what it's typically reflecting is what you did the day before. So if you had maybe a different meal than normal, maybe you had like a dessert with your dinner the night before and you don't normally do that, you'll probably see that reflected in those morning values the next day. Let's say, you had a couple more glasses of alcohol than you normally do. You'll probably see that the next day. 

The other main reason that we might see fasted glucose levels drive up, well, also sleep quality. So I guess, that's reflected from the previous day. But another big one is just stress levels. So if we're feeling like nothing has changed in our routine but our fasted glucose levels are creeping up, it's typically stress, because that surge of cortisol and that stress response is telling your liver to dump more glucose. And so we see those glucose values rise despite no change in activity levels or our dietary levels, then we can usually pinpoint that to stress. 

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Yeah. We hear the word stress and it can seem very vague. Of course, everybody's stressed, but it literally can have this hormonal effect that [giggles] is raising our levels. So as far as seeing the spikes, so Xena says, “What to do with the information? Does that mean cut the food out completely if it spikes?” 

Kara Collier: Great question, because the answer is no, not always, especially, if it's like a nutrient dense, healthy food. So let's say let's take the example of-- Your example is great. Let's say that you're eating more like cooked fruit and you're having a big glucose spike and you're like, “What should I do with this?” Again, you can troubleshoot this yourself. But this would be a great question if you are working at NutriSense to ask your dietitian, and we'll experiment with that. So maybe the suggestion might be to try it in its whole form, which happens a lot. So an example might be somebody who's drinking a smoothie version of that fruit or they're juicing their fruit. So then we might recommend to just eat the whole fruit and see how that goes. 

Another really useful tip is typically to make sure you've eaten protein and some fiber. But typically, protein is the best in this situation to eat some protein first and then the fruit, and you'll likely see your glucose response improve. Another strategy is to make sure you're getting movement in to help mitigate some of that response. So those are all helpful things to try if it's a food that we believe is healthy, nutrient dense, and also a food that you really enjoy. So if you're like, “No, this is my favorite food ever. I don't want to get rid of it.” Usually, we can find a way to make it work. But if it's something like, let's say you had a candy bar and you had a glucose spike, we could probably mitigate it a little bit, but it's also not good for you, not nutrient dense, not adding any value. So most likely, yes, we would like to just remove that from that routine. But for a lot of things, there is actually quite a bit we can do. 

Melanie Avalon: Going back to something you were saying or we were both talking about earlier about valuable information in the moment, but then also how you remember it, I still-- Because I think there's been one time when I was wearing a CGM when I ate really processed food. It was still paleo, but it was still gluten free and all the things, but it had a lot of natural sugar in it. I don't know why. I think I had like a random craving for cereal. And so I got one of those gluten free cereal things and I ate a lot of it. It spiked so high on my CGM, and that haunts me to this day. [giggles] I'm like, “I know now, like, what that's actually doing to me.” Maybe there's a time and place where I'll be in a situation, and it's my birthday, and the cost benefit of life, like, it's worth it in that moment. I think you can do that and you can still have the agency and the knowledge. I think it's just about taking responsibility for yourself and knowing what's valuable. 

Kara Collier: Yeah. Mindful of those tradeoffs. When you do know that information, you're geared with it, then you can make the really intentional decisions. It's not just like, “Oh, I'm just eating this because it's in front of me.” A lot of times, we'll have people who work in offices where there's always some sort of treat for somebody's birthday. There's cupcakes, there's donuts, there's whatever. When before maybe you would mindlessly have one, now it's like, “I know what that does and I'm only going to do it if it's really, truly worth it.” So it's like making sure it's worth it, because life is worth living and we don't have to be perfect all of the time. But I think it's about being geared with the information and then really weighing the pros and cons and making a decision that feels right for you. 

Melanie Avalon: I cannot agree more. None of the questions today, I don't think mentioned it, but people have said before that they're hesitant to get one because they just don't want to know. Basically, I just find it so eye opening and empowering, so that you can really make the decisions the majority of the time that will best suit your health and then have those moments where if you do choose to do something that you know might not look the best on your CGM, at least you're aware and it's in the context of the rest of the time when you can be taking more agency. So as far as getting a CGM, we did have questions about getting one and the price.

So Wendy wanted to know, “Why are they so expensive and why would you need one if you have no need for one?” Although I think we've talked a lot about that second part. Joy wants to know, “When will they become more affordable?” Jackie wants to know, “What is the initial cost of the CGM and the continuing cost for supplies and the membership? Is it worth it if you're not diabetic and at a normal BMI. Could it be a benefit for a healthy senior citizen? How does the NutriSense program work as far as people getting a CGM, and the affordability, and the pricing and the access? How does that all work?” We do have a code for listeners that we can share as well. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of just how it works, you would sign up on our website, and you fill out a quick health questionnaire and you pick which plan you want to do, so I'll walk through that. But then you don't have to do anything else. So we take care of all of the getting the devices, shipping them to your doors. Based off of the subscription you choose, they would come to each month, and then you have lifetime access to the app and your data. So you put the sensors on at home, you use the app, and then you chat with the dietitian through the app as well, and then you don't have to do anything. And our options, we have that month to month, no commitment, like I mentioned. So you could do just one month. That's the shortest time period. And we have all the way up to a 12-month commitment. Month to month is the most expensive. It's $350. And then the 12-month is the cheapest and it's $199 a month. And then we have plans that vary in between. 

Why it's so expensive? We would also love for it to be cheaper. My goal as well is to have every single person have them at least be able to use it at least once and get that data. But the hardware right now is still just costly. The devices themselves are just more expensive, but they have already trended down in cost since they've been available over the last 10 years or so. So 10 years ago, they were hundreds of dollars apiece, and now they're significantly less than that. So we do anticipate that with more demand, they'll continue to drive down prices. We also anticipate that each sensor will continue to be able to last longer, which helps as well. They used to only last-- the very first version of these sensors only lasted three days, and now they last 14 days. So they will get cheaper, they'll last longer, they'll be smaller, and they'll just continue to get better over time, and we'll be able to drive down those prices. We will be rolling out within the next few months, actually, the kind of membership bring your own sensor option. So this will be a onetime fee. And then if you have sensors of your own, you can use our app and access all of that information as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And for listeners, they can actually go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, and that will get you $30 off as well. So we are super, super grateful for that. Well, this has been so amazing. I cannot thank you enough, Kara, for everything that you are doing with this company and making this accessible to people. I'll just share one last quick anecdote. I had my own experience. Something I really love testing on the CGM was I have my AvalonX supplement line, and I was historically taking berberine for blood sugar control. I don't want to say so much control as, I guess, blood sugar optimization. 

In any case, I honestly thought when I made my version that I wouldn't see any difference, but when I did, I made my own version of it and I saw massive changes on my CGM as far as the effect that it had on my postprandial spike. That was really exciting. And then I heard that from people as well. That's something that honestly, I just never could know if I didn't have the CGM. So it's just been, for me, personally so eye opening in so many ways with that, with my daily diet, with the HbA1c issue, with so many things. I hear testimonials from people all the time. And so, like I said, I cannot recommend enough that people get one of these. I can't thank you enough for making it so, so accessible and so easy to interpret and understand. It's just awesome. You're changing the world literally. So thank you so much for all that you're doing. 

Kara Collier: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate your support. Yeah, our goal is really just to help people take control of their health, and learn this information, and really just better themselves, which ends up bettering everyone else as well. So I'm going to have to check out your supplement as well. I'd be super curious to try it. Sounds awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I will send it to you, most definitely. 

Kara Collier: That would be great. That'd be so fun. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting because I had that experience and then so many people have told me that as well, they would check it on CGMs. I was like, “Ah, this is fabulous.” If you're open to it, I'd love to have you back more regularly because this is just so important and wonderful and I can't wait to air this. I'm so excited. Okay, well, thank you so much for your time, Kara, and I will talk to you very soon. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Oct 22

Episode 340: Cycling, Long Fasts, Electrolytes, BCAAs Vs. EAAs, Creatine, Fiber & Stool Quality, Complete Protein, Halloween, Cell Phone Etiquette, Leucine Threshold, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 340 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At Melanieavalon.Com/Emfemaillist!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A Free Turkey And $20 Off Your First Order!!

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Brian - cycling and ADF

Get $100 Off With Code MELANIEAVALON At carolbike.com!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #214 - Ulrich Dempfle (CAROL AI Bike)

Listener Q&A: Brooke - What's the difference between BCAAs and EAAs?

Listener Q&A: Margaret - Does Vanessa’s Tone Protein contain amino acids like creatine?

Listener Q&A: Theresa - Melanie Avalon, is your GI system completely accustomed to your diet?

DRY FARM WINES: Use The Link dryfarmwines.com/melanieavalon To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 340 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and ToneLUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 340 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I’m Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: Vanessa, this actually airs the day before Halloween.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, spooky.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Do you think you'll be dressing up for it this year?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I was just talking with some friends this morning. We met up for coffee and a walk and we were talking about Halloween, and one of our friends who was throwing the Halloween party moved to Brussels. So, we were talking about what we're going to do, costumes, and all of that, and yeah, I guess it gets on everyone's mind around this time of year. We might throw a Halloween party, we'll see. But yeah, I think Halloween is super fun. It was definitely my favorite holiday when I was little. I loved all the candy, [laughs] but the dressing up is really fun, so I don't have a costume in mind right now. I feel like we talked about costumes on a recent episode. Did you have one in mind that you were-- we’re talking about princesses? I think. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I have since as of yesterday that we were recording this, made my final decisions about costumes, and I'm so excited. I'm going to an aquarium. The aquarium does like this cool Halloween party thing, so I'm going to do that on the weekend and I'm going to dress up like Sleeping Beauty.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: The costume says, what does it say? It says Sleeping Princess. Because it's like the off label. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And then for Halloween Halloween my sister and I, I am so excited. We're going to dress up like Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey. It's going to be a vibe.

Vanessa Spina: I wonder who will be who? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. I don't know. You'll have to wait and see, I know. [laughs] Actually, I'm so excited. I ordered-- because have you seen how she has The Heiress movie coming? Oh, it will have already come out, by the time this airs.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, cool.

Melanie Avalon: The concert movie, which has-- I won't make this a whole Taylor Swift monologue, but it's broken the records for the highest presales of any movie in all of history. It's already made 26 million, I think, and it comes out in October. But regardless, I have ordered all the pieces I need to reconstruct the costume she's wearing on the poster, which is her lover's outfit. It's like this rhinestoney beautiful bathing suit with fishnet stockings and really high boots. So, I ordered the bathing suit, and I'm going to bejewel it myself with rhinestones. And then I ordered seven pairs of boots and I'm going to see which one looks the most like it and then return the others. It's going to be on point.

Vanessa Spina: That's exciting and fun.

Melanie Avalon: I’m very excited and my sister does not like dressing up for Halloween. So, she's excited because she's just going to dress up like a Lana del Rey, like a normal person. So, I can't wait to see if you guys dress up, like, as a family.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we probably will do a family costume. I think that's going to be how it goes for the next little while. But it's pretty fun. So last year, I wanted to do at first, Cinderella and Pete would be Prince Charming, and Luca would be a pumpkin. It's like the frigging most cute Halloween costume ever for a baby.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was my first costume. I think like personally.

Vanessa Spina: I was really excited about I think I mentioned that Pete was like, he saw the Prince Charming costume, and he was like, “No”. [laughs] So, we intelligible 00:04:59]mixed that, even though I really wanted to see Luca in a pumpkin. But went with the cat theme, like the Cheetah and the lion and that the baby so we'll have to come up with something. Maybe, I could get Pete to do the Prince Charming, we'll see if he'll veto it or not. But yeah, it's really fun to do costumes altogether really, enjoy it. It's a fun reason to go out. We actually had a date night last night, which is very rare for us. [laughs] And we went to see a standup comedian that was here from the US. It was really fun to go out and have a date night. But it was not an enjoyable evening at all [laughs] because when we got there, they made us lock our phones in these pouches and you had to set your phone on vibrate, and you could not take the phone out for any reason except if there was an emergency like, your phone was going off, then you have to leave this huge auditorium, go back down to the lobby, find someone to unlock your pouch. So like-- [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon:  Whoa.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, this is our first-time leaving Luca. We dropped him off at a friend's house, and you know he's two. He's not five or six or whatever. He's only two and his buddy, they had a play day and but it was our first time doing it. It was the first time for them as well. We really trust the parents. We're really close with them, and they're very responsible, and they have a kid the same age, so obviously they know what to do. But Pete and I could not relax the entire time because we had told them, if there's something goes wrong, just call us and the phone will vibrate and we'll leave. But the whole time I was like, “What if my phone's not on right now? What if it doesn't vibrate? What if it doesn't work?” It's all we could think about and it's a weird experience also because you can't even check the time. So, the whole show was delayed by 45 minutes and that 45 minutes, we had no idea what was going on. [chuckles] We were there with some friends, but we couldn't relax at all. It was actually 3 hours total. It felt like 3 hours of torture. [laughs]

We love going to see standup comedy. It was one of the things we did the most before we had Luca. We would go to comedy shows together and you have to be in a relaxed state, right, to laugh and enjoy yourself. And the whole time we were clutching each other's hands, white-knuckling, [laughs] just make the jokes be over. Then we bolted when we thought it was starting to wrap up so that we could just run down to the lobby and not wait in line to have our phones unlocked. But we got over to our friend's house. Luca was having the time of his life, which would have been great to know [laughs] because he was like, not even a single tear. Didn't even notice we were gone. So, we could have been having so much fun, but we couldn't relax the whole time. And then we got home, we were like, “We are never doing that ever again.” If we could have just checked them every half hour and just know that everything was fine, we could have relaxed, but because we couldn't even access them, it was just really stressful. Anyway, that was our first date night in a little while, but it was still nice to just be together by ourselves, I guess.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, well, first of all, it's very eerie that you're talking about this because I was literally going to talk about this concept.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, really? 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Isn't that weird?

Vanessa Spina: Another alignment. Another alignment episode.

Melanie Avalon: Before I say, what I was going to say. So, did they tell you beforehand that was going to be the situation?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, but we only found out a day before. They sent out an e-blast to everyone who had purchased tickets, and it was very strict, and it was like, “If you're caught taking your phone out from the pouch or whatever, you're going to be escorted out of the venue.” It was really strict and we’re trying to figure out, “Okay, what is going on with this?” Because our friends we were there with said that they thought maybe that this comedian was filming a Netflix special and that they didn't want clips to be leaked, which to me, clips are good for publicity.

But lately in the news, I'm sure you've seen there's been a lot of incidents with performers and audience members and their phones. There was one, I think it was a country singer. She interrupted her concert because of people were taking selfies on their phone. Then, there was some weird interactions recently with someone threw a mic, and the phone, and the drink, and I don't know. So, we're like, I don't know what this is but it was just a weird feeling. If we didn't have a child, I wouldn't have minded. But it was really not practical for people [chuckles] who have little ones. Anyway, your question was, did we know? So, yeah, we knew, but only right before. I would not have bought tickets if I knew that was going to be the scenario.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's only happened to me once where they were that intense. It was when I was doing background on an Apple commercial.

Vanessa Spina: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: They took our phones and they made us sign a contract saying we would-- have I told you this story before, saying that “We would never say we’re in this commercial even after it came out.” I was like “that's odd.”

Vanessa Spina:  That is strange. 

Melanie Avalon: They didn't tell us it was Apple. They have a secret code word. But we figured out it was Apple, obviously. [chuckles] The actor was holding an Apple phone.

Vanessa Spina: That's really fun. I've been in some commercial shoots and I did some modeling when I was younger. And those shoots are so long. It's an all-day process and they're so boring.

Melanie Avalon: What's crazy, because I went through my background acting phase where I was literally doing TV shows and commercials every day. Every day, I was on a different TV show or movie or commercial. Sometimes, it'd be so short. You would go and be done in an hour and you get the full day's pay. And those days were the best. And then some days it was literally you rarely went over 16 hours because once you go over 16 hours, it's called golden time. And you start getting a day's rate every hour. So, they don't like to go past 16, but they will go up to 16, so long days, long days. Back to the phone situation. The thing I was going to talk about was I saw-- last night with my dad, we saw Oppenheimer. Have you seen that movie? 

Vanessa Spina: No, but I've heard lots of good things. 

Melanie Avalon: It was very good. It was very long though. But I was just thinking about how going to a movie theater, it's one of the few last things left in the world where people pretty much turn off their phone or don't really look at their phones and are just in the moment. I was thinking about how it was just a completely different experience to experience the world and not be looking at your phone during it, how nice it was. But I think there's definitely a huge difference between even in the movie theater, I can look at the phone. I can check the time if I need, compared to not being able to. Having that taken away is just-- that would create anxiety for me.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I was saying to our friends when we got to their house to pick up Luca. I was like, I went to a movie. We went to see the Barbie movie. I didn't have my phone out. I checked it a couple times again because I have a little one, but I feel as an adult, I can be trusted to put it away. And all they have to do at a show, if they don't want recordings, is just say, “No recordings.” [chuckles] I feel like you can trust people to put their phones away and then they can just check and see if people are turning them on. I don't know, it was just an experience that we will never do again. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, I'm so sorry.

Vanessa Spina: Not all date nights are successful, but we still had some nice moments, just like, being the two of us and holding hands and just having some romantic time. But we also went away, I have to say, to this incredible place this weekend to visit two castles, and we had the best weekend, I think, of the whole summer. It was so much fun. There's this one castle, I sent you a picture of it once, that is my favorite castle.

Melanie Avalon: Is it the Disney one? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's the Disney one, but like a real, the original one that Disney takes inspiration from that one and a lot of other castles in Europe. But it's the most amazing castle ever. There's this little town, it's a UNESCO heritage site, and we go there pretty much every year. We figured out this was our sixth time that we've been there because we've been going every summer. But it was so much fun to take Luca there. It was the first time, because once you get in the town, it has this river going through it, and there's a castle and all this fun stuff, but once you get in, there're no cars. So, we didn't even take the stroller out of the car. The whole weekend, Luca was just running around exploring everything, going everywhere. It had so many playgrounds and play areas. And then we did a boat tour and took him up to the castle. The castle has a moat that has these bears in it and and then we took him-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: Bears in the moat.

Vanessa Spina: It's a moat, but there's no water in it anymore. It's just empty and they have bears living there.  [laughs] Then we took him to the other castle. It was just amazing. I posted on my personal Instagram. I was like, “We used to bar hop, now we castle hop.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. 

Vanessa Spina: But we had the best weekend of the summer. So, on a more positive note, I'm feeling pretty good about the weekend despite last night. 

Melanie Avalon: I love seeing all the posts in your videos. Luca's always so cute and he always looks so happy.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he's a really, really sweet, happy kid. And yeah, I'm definitely getting nervous for what's coming and hoping that he doesn't feel slighted or replaced or any of those things. But in general, he seems pretty excited about the babies. I think he's going to be an amazing brother. So, he's a very happy boy. Hopefully, he'll continue to be that way. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I feel on social media, it always goes one of two ways with the videos. It's always the videos of the kid being upset by the arrival of the new sibling or it's the kid just adoring the new sibling.

Vanessa Spina:  Aww.

Melanie Avalon: I've seen both. They're always funny moments regardless.

Vanessa Spina: I think it's a mix. So, a lot of my friends here have recently had a second child and we all are like half of us just had babies and the other half are having babies. There's one this month, one next month, one in November, and then me in December, and then one in January. [chuckles] We're all just in that phase of life, [chuckles] that season of life. It's really interesting because you definitely see that you have some really challenging moments with tantrums and dealing with the arrival of the new sibling, sharing things, and sharing mummy and daddy and all that. But there's also moments that just take your breath away when the first baby is cuddling the baby or holding the baby or just like they're playing together. All that stuff takes your breath away. So, I think it's definitely a mix of good and bad, but it's all part of the journey. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited for you. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Did you have a good weekend? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it was Labor Day weekend here, so it was longer.

Vanessa Spina: We took the long weekend. That's why we were away. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you guys have Labor Day weekend as well.

Vanessa Spina: We take all the holidays. We celebrate. [laughs] I mean, our work lines up more with North America than Europe because our businesses are in North America, our clients are in North America. So, we take the same holidays as everyone in North America. Not so much the ones here.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. Yeah. I embodied the spirit of Labor Day weekend. I really used it to catch up on work, which was really, really fabulous. I was like, “I need another week of this honestly,” But yes, it was lovely. Shall we jump into questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a question from Brian and the subject is podcast questions, cycling, and ADF. Brian says, “I have been following ADF, which is alternate-day fasting eating12:00 to 8:00 PM Monday, Wednesday, Friday, fasting Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and have a free day on Sunday. So, it's basically three, 42 hours fasts and one 16-hour fast per week since the end of November and I have lost approximately 60 pounds, around halfway to goal. General low carb, but not super serious about it. I started cycling in early December. I'm in the Phoenix area, so it's not as bad as it sounds. It's really nice right now and I've been riding three to four days per week on average. My question has to do with cardio-type exercise and fasting. Google searching has returned really mixed results. You have to eat, you don't have to eat, you have to eat carbs, etc. I definitely notice a difference biking after I eat, I have a lot more energy on those rides. What are your thoughts and experiences with high energy output exercise like cycling or rowing and longer fasting times? Should you always eat beforehand during carbs or fats or protein? And does any of this interfere with the benefits from longer fasts, like autophagy? How might that be impacted if the amount eaten before is less than the amount burned? Does gender make a difference?”

Vanessa Spina: Wow. Well, congratulations on getting halfway to your goal. That's amazing. And alternate-day fasting is one of the most effective ways to do that. So, it sounds like you found something that's really working well for you and you're feeling good about it. When it comes to fasted workouts, I just say it really depends on your preference. Because, it sounds like you still have 60 pounds of fat that you want to lose, so you have fuel on board. You're not an athlete with too low body fat percentage that's at risk of under fueling. So, I would say fasted workouts are probably fine for you as long as if you're doing really long or extended rides, make sure to supplement with electrolytes because you will lose electrolytes when you're doing that much activity outside in the heat. I think it comes down to how you feel and what your goals are.

So, it sounds like your main goal is fat loss, but then you also brought up autophagy, which you're probably getting into by going all the way to 42 hours on your fast. If you're cycling fasted, you are going to stimulate the biogenesis of more mitochondria, and that can be really amazing for a metabolic health and overall health and wellness. You're definitely going to boost your fat loss because you're going to be fueling those rides with your stored body fat if you are doing those rides fast, and you're going to be definitely ramping up the autophagy on those longer fasts. However, you did say that when you eat and then go biking, so if you bike not in the fasted state, you have a lot more energy on those rides. And that's an important factor as well. I think it really comes down to how you feel, how you prefer to feel, do you prefer to feel more energized?

Some people feel more energized when they do fasted workouts. I tend to be one of those people. I find that my workouts are more powerful and I'm more energetic because my body is not diverting blood flow and energy to breaking down and absorbing and digesting food. So, I think that it depends on what you feel best doing, what you prefer to do, because you'll probably get to your goal either way, the way that you are going so far. I don't think that either doing fasted workouts or not will interfere with your goal. So, I would just go with what you personally prefer to do.

And your other questions were thoughts and experiences with high energy output, like cycling or rowing and longer fasting times, if you should always eat beforehand or during. So, like I said, if you're an athlete with really low body fat, you probably don't have enough fuel on your body to rely on for really extended exercise. But if you have a lot of body fat that you're wanting to burn off, then it depends on you if you want to fuel yourself off of your body fat or off of the food that you eat and n terms of interfering with the benefits of autophagy, I would say if autophagy is a big goal of yours, then just focus on doing the fasting. I would just do your exercise or your bike rides or your workouts, whether it's cycling or rowing on your eating days. Then you don't really have to worry about the fact that your eating could be interfering with either your fat loss or your autophagy goal. So that's pretty much my take on it. In terms of gender, I don't really--

Melanie Avalon: I got that one. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay, go for it. Melanie, what are your thoughts? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I loved your thoughts about all of that. I do agree that it's so individual as far as people finding what works best for them. So, clarification about his terminology because he says high energy output exercise, which immediately makes me think of-- I think of high intensity output or really glycogen demanding output. So, like high intensity interval training or spurts or power lifting or something like that. But he's referring it to cycling, which could also be long slow cardio, but it would be, “High energy” because it would be using a lot of energy. The reason I'm clarifying about that is I think people can do-- they can become fat adapted and do “High energy output” in that long duration but slower energy. So, if you think about somebody like Mark Sisson with his primal endurance concept, he talks about running marathons and stuff and doing lots of endurance-type exercise that is a long time timeline wise, and doing it on a low-carb diet and/or fasting.

But that's different than the high energy output from something like spurts or like I said, like doing intense weightlifting and things like that. So, I just want to properly answer what he's asking. I do think it is possible for people to become really fat adapted and do well with fasting in “High energy output exercises.” I think for some people it takes maybe longer than they might expect to really get into that. But in some people, maybe that just never really is what works for you and maybe you just find more benefit with your workouts, having carbs beforehand or whatever it may be. I personally-- well, I don't really do [chuckles] super long, extensive energy output type exercise.

I do my CAROL Bike, which I am obsessed with, and just walk and move throughout the day and do like EMSculpt for muscle building. CAROL Bike, by the way, gives you a REHIT workout, which is a more optimized, efficient version than high intensity interval training. And it uses AI to adjust resistance on the bike so that you get the ideal form of REHIT in your session and it only lasts eight minutes. Although, I just interviewed the founder and realized it actually can only last six minutes if you want, which was very exciting. That was a whole tangent. But by the way, that's at carolbike.com and the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON gets you $100 off, it's like my favorite thing ever.

Back to Brian's question. So, Vanessa really nailed it as far as intuitively finding what works for you from that, as far as the gender, I always thought this was so interesting because a lot of people, there's like this idea out there that women don't do as well with fasting as men or women don't do as well with keto as men or as low carb as men. When the literature and I can find the studies for this, but I talk about it in my book and I've talked about it with other guests on my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, since then.

But women actually, during exercise, more readily burn fat and more of it than men. Men's bodies tend to preferentially burn glycogen, whereas women's bodies more preferentially burn fat, which is I don't know that was not expected to me, but it's pretty consistent in literature. Have you seen that before, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: Now that you mention it, I do feel like I have. But I also love that you brought up the type of exercise and the intensity, because I also wasn't sure. And one thing that I know is that if you are doing any activity that is around 60% to 70% of your VO2 max, you're actually better suited to being fat fueled. So, it does depend like, you could do cycling at 60% to 70% of your VO2 max or rowing and that's list long-distance type of endurance exercise, like marathon running and that thing. You're definitely being fueled from your fat or you're actually better off being fueled from your fat than being fueled from glycogen and hitting that wall, which doesn't happen when you're fat fueled. But if you're doing super high intensity that's higher than 60% to 70% of your VO2 max, then, yeah, you might need those glycolytic reserves.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. Definitely friends, check out my interview with the founder of CAROL Bike. His name is Ulrich Dempfle. He's German. We dived so deep into all of this. So, we talked about VO2 max. We talked about different substrates that you burn, how the metabolism works during energy output. It was a fascinating fasting conversation. We talked about how fast glycogen stores are depleted. It was really, really fun.

Vanessa Spina: That sounds amazing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It was so amazing, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. So, hopefully, we answered Brian's question. Feel free to write back Brian and let us know where you ended up landing with everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I'd love to know too.

Melanie Avalon: All righty, so two quick questions for Vanessa and these kind of go together. Brooke wants to know, “What's the difference between BCAAs and EAAs? How do I know which one is better for me to use? Are there certain brands that you like? And then Margaret wants to know, does Vanessa's Tone Protein contain amino acids like creatine in viable amounts so that she will not have to be using two powders?” So, Vanessa, can you educate us a little on amino acids and what these different ones are and what your Tone Protein will contain? Will it have creatine?”

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, I absolutely can answer that and both of these are great questions. So, in terms of BCAAs, we're talking about branched-chain amino acids, of which there are three that they actually are essential amino acids. So, actually, BCAAs are EAAs because we have leucine, isoleucine, and valine. Those are the three branched-chain amino acids, and they also happen to be part of the nine essential amino acids. So, there isn't fully a difference although the essential amino acids, there are nine of them, so there's six more in addition to that. But the BCAAs are the ones that are often marketed for sport, for growing muscle, etc., because they do play a special role, especially leucine and isoleucine. But leucine being the foremost of the three when it comes to building muscle, because the level of leucine in your blood is this nutrient signal to your body to initiate muscle protein synthesis.

It is a binary process where it's really just like off or on like you're either triggering muscle protein synthesis or you're not. You're either getting enough protein at your meal that you have enough of the amino acid leucine to trigger muscle protein synthesis, which means your body is going to synthesize muscle tissue and that's going to balance out the muscle protein breakdown that happens every day. So, it is really important to get BCAAs, but you can get, and it obviously is really important to get essential amino acids every day because they're essential, because we have to get them from the diet. We can't make them on our own. There are 11 other amino acids that we can make on our own, but only if we have complete protein. So, in terms of supplementing, this is how I tend to look at it. If you are eating enough protein in the day, and by that, I mean, if you're getting at least 30 g of animal protein per meal or 35 to be on the safe side, if you're doing plant proteins, you will get enough of those BCAAs at those meals and you will get enough of those essential amino acids at those meals. So, you don't need to supplement with either. The only time it makes sense to supplement is if you have a meal. This is something I do myself and I also do with my father and some other people, is if I happen to have a meal that had lower protein. So, this usually happens to me when eating out. It doesn't really happen to me at home because I know how much protein to make to make sure that I have 30 g at a meal. But if we're eating out and the options are limited, protein portions tend to be smaller at restaurants, I don't know if it's always the same in the US. I know the portions tend to be bigger, but in Europe they're not as big. Sometimes, I'll have to do like if I get a burger, I'll ask for double meat or go to Chipotle, ask for double meat. 

There are situations when you can get a double serving of protein but if you can't and you know that you had, say, a chicken Caesar salad or something, and you know that you didn't probably get 30 g of protein in that meal, then you could have some essential amino acids or some BCAAs, you can get encapsulated BCAAs, which is something I have, and just take that and that will help top you off so that you hit that 2.5 to 3-g threshold, 3 g, you really optimize and maximize muscle protein synthesis. So, if you take either of those things, BCAAs or essential amino acids outside of a meal where you're trying to top off the levels, it does nothing. It does nothing for you. It literally does zero.

So, I would not use them for any other reason. And the only time that I would take BCAAs in particular is at a meal that you had a lower protein amount. So, my Tone Protein has BCAAs added and a particular leucine added so that it's scientifically formulated to make sure that you hit that amount of leucine that you need every time you have a serving so that you can initiate muscle protein synthesis. In terms of brands of BCAAs and EAAs, I don't really know of any. That's why I'm creating my own protein, because I haven't found anything that meets my standards yet. I do have some encapsulated BCAAs that I found in Europe, so I don't think that something I can really recommend. But yeah, that's something that you can have in your back pocket.

If you don't have BCAAs though and you did have a smaller protein meal, say you were out at a restaurant and all they had was one egg or something like that, sometimes it happens. You can go home and when you get home, have a protein shake and just top that off as well. And you're going to get all the BCAAs and all the EAAs as well. Thank you, Brooke, for your question. So, creatine tends to be present in beef, for example, as well as a lot of other nutrients like carnitine, niacin. There's just so many amazing nutrients in it. One thing I can say about creatine is your body can make it if you have enough glycine and arginine. So basically, if you're taking Tone Protein, your body can make the creatine. So that's something that anytime you're getting a whole or complete protein, you're going to be able to synthesize creatine because you have both glycine and arginine.

There is also S-Adenosyl methionine, which is a derivative of the amino acid methionine that can help with that process of making creatine. So, I don't think you fully need it as like a separate supplement. But we have tweaked Tone Protein so that it is optimized in certain ways and you can find out more about it and get updates on it if you sign up for my email list, which is the exclusive launch discount email list as well at toneprotein.com, you'll be able to get updates on the formulation and the timing of when it's out, as well as getting the launch discount. But in short, just taking Tone Protein itself, because it's a very high-quality protein whey isolate, your body is going to be able to make the creatine from the amino acids in that, so you don't have to take 50 different powders and things with it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, I think that's pretty mind blowing to people who because I think there's this narrative out there, people think they should be taking BCAAs all the time to protect muscle or while exercising and so is it analogy because what it sounds is sort of like seasoning in that salt and pepper or something. Say you want to have the ideal meal you can add like salt and pepper and seasoning to the meal and optimize your meal, but we wouldn't just take salt and pepper by themselves. It literally would do nothing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, if you just take the BCAAs on their own, it literally does nothing. It just does nothing. An analogy would be like you're turning the key in the ignition of your car, but you have no gas and no engine. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Ah. Yeah, that's a good analogy.

Vanessa Spina: The engine is the mTOR complex and the amino acids are the fuel. So, if you don't have all the amino acids that you need to make the muscle, you're just revving the engine and you're going nowhere. So, it's a big marketing thing. People take BCAAs in their water before working out and do this and that, but you're sending the signal, but then you're telling your body keep build muscle, but then your body is going to go with what? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a total waste of money. I think there are some purposes with the essential amino acids, but the only time you can take them effectively. So, I talk about this a lot on my podcast, but for older people who need to eat more protein and tend to not, and the statistics on it are really alarming. Most people 70 and above are not even getting the minimum RDA for protein, let alone optimal amounts of protein or what they actually need, because whenever you're aging or you're ill or you're growing, you need more protein. So, what I do is I have people in my family take BCAAs that are encapsulated with their meals and that's going to help them bump up the leucine so that even if they are not eating a lot of protein at the meal, at least they will get muscle protein synthesis initiated and also shakes because a lot of people just don't want to eat that much as they get older. But like a really tasty chocolate or vanilla shake or something can be enticing and can really help with preserving muscle mass. So, I do think there's a role for BCAAs when it comes to that.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I asked for questions for the show and I didn't integrate any of them into this episode, but so many people were like, “When is Vanessa's protein powder coming?” People are very excited. 

Vanessa Spina: It makes me so happy when I see that because I'm like, “Yay, you're excited as excited as I am.” I definitely think it's going to be worth the wait. It's something that you are all going to love. So, I appreciate your patience in waiting for it and getting excited for it. It'll be here before you know it. So, if you are on the email list, you'll be the first to know when it is out. So, I'll keep you updated there.

Melanie Avalon: Very excited. All right, shall we go to our next question? By the way, that was very educational. I should know more about this, but it's not my-- I think probably because I just eat so much protein that I haven't focused on the specifics of it so much, so I always learned so much hearing that from you, so thank you.

Vanessa Spina: Aww, that's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that. I always learn so much from you every episode or every time we talk, so it's definitely mutual [laughs].

Melanie Avalon: Mutual learning pool. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, we have a question from Teresa on Facebook. She says, “Okay, first off, love the two of you together, blue heart.”

Melanie Avalon: She has a lot of emojis.

Vanessa Spina: I love the emojis. “While I don't really do much fasting or follow specific ways of eating, I've always been one to prioritize protein and whole foods, especially since discovering that I can eat gluten in my early 20s. Which leads me to my next question that I just have to ask, laughing emoji. Melanie Avalon, is your GI system completely accustomed to your diet or do you find that you are eliminating blueberry and cucumber fiber like crazy? I'm sorry. I'm sure it's TMI, too much information.”

Melanie Avalon: Never TMI with me.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] “But even regularly when I eat large amounts of certain fruits/nuts/fibrous foods, I definitely notice massive bulk. I'm sorry if this is too much. I just have always been so curious and hiding her eyes. Lol.”

Melanie Avalon: Yes. She also included the little emoji with I don't know what to call it. The little bowel movement emoji as well.

Vanessa Spina: A poop emoji? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Vanessa Spina: We love the emojis. Keep them coming.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Feel free to include in your questions your favorite emoji. I would love to hear people's favorite emojis. I find it really interesting in this whole topic that there're so many people that don't even think about this ever. And then people who are beyond obsessed with this. I tend to fall in the beyond obsessed camp. Cynthia was also very much into bowel movement issues. Where do you land on the [unintelligible [00:43:22]? Did not think about it much, I don't think.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's definitely important. I remember someone, I think it was my book publisher told me that one of their most popular books was a book just about poop, and it was like it had guides and illustrations and I thought that was hilarious because I was, I mean, people want to know the info.

Melanie Avalon: So funny. I'm having flashbacks when I was little and I had the little book that taught you how to go the bathroom. Does Luca have that book, one of those books? 

Vanessa Spina: We have a book about potty training and he's really into that one right now, so maybe I need to get this other book that you’re talking about. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: All the books all the time. I don't know if I should tell this story. It's probably not even funny.

Vanessa Spina: Every time you say, I don't know if I should tell this, I'm like, now you have to. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I just know one of our favorite home videos in our family is when we were little-- and I think why it's so powerful to me is I have the memory associated with it. I remember being there and then seeing it on camera is just so funny. So, I must have been at least-- it was in our first house. So, the oldest I could have been was four and then I had my brother and sister, and we were all taking a bath together. One of them, I guess, had a little poop situation in the bath. I distinctly remember being there and seeing the little poop turds floating in the water. I remember telling my dad or whoever was there filming us, nobody believed me. I was right. We have the video and in the video it's like us all playing, and my brother and sister are splashing and I'm splashing and then you see me notice it, and you see me just staring at it, [laughs] and I have a moment.

Vanessa Spina: Family videos are the best. You just laugh so hard until your stomach hurts.

Melanie Avalon: They're so, so great. Yeah, it's laser focus. I'm like, “Yeah.” I remember being vindicated though, finally they believed me. 

Vanessa Spina: You had the evidence.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have that memory, though, of seeing it in the water. 

Vanessa Spina: Do you think you have the memory, though, or do you think you have the memory because of the video?

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it's from the video, because when we would watch the video, I was like, “Yes, I remember like I was there, vindication. This is that time that nobody believed me.” 

Vanessa Spina: That's so funny. 

Melanie Avalon: Good times. Good times. Now I want to go watch home videos. Back to the question. So, there is the Bristol Stool Chart people are probably familiar with. So, it has seven types of stool consistencies. You can Google this if you like. They'll say that you should exist in a certain sphere on this chart. So, they say that type 1s to 2 indicate constipation, types 3 to 4 are ideal stools and are easier to pass, and type 5 to 7 may indicate diarrhea and urgency. The thing is, people are all over the spectrum with this. So, on the one hand, you have people on carnivore diets who are eliminating once every few days, maybe, but they don't have any feelings of constipation, and they have easy eliminations. Then you have people on the vegan spectrum who are eliminating multiple times a day, like all this bulk and all this fiber.

And my thoughts on all of this is that so much of it is affected by diet and the gut microbiome. I don't know how much we should hardcore overanalyze or try to achieve some certain ideal stool despite there being a Bristol Stool Chart. I think it's more about do you feel like you're eliminating completely or not. So, when you are having bowel movements, how are you feeling? Do you feel like that was a complete evacuation or do you feel like that it's not moving through slowly? So, I wouldn't get overly fixated on if you're having a lot more fiber and then you're noticing massive bulk in your bowel movements. It really depends on are you having GI distress with that? So, if you're having bulk and you're not having any GI distress, I don't see that there's any issue. But if you're having bulk, you're also constipated, bloated, and having issues, then there's probably something to work on there.

If you want my personal answer in the TMI front, I use a lot of digestive enzymes. I'm a big fan of digestive enzymes. I do plan to launch my own in the future and I'm so excited about them. So, when I take a lot of digestive enzymes, that massively affects the amount of bulk that I will have because those enzymes help break down all of that fiber. If I didn't take any digestive enzymes, I would have probably like she's experiencing the massive bulk, but I use a lot of enzymes, which helps with that. So, the point that I want to make about all of this is that it's a massive spectrum of the stool potential and I would look at a lot of things beyond just the actual chart or look of it and how you actually feel beyond that. Do you have any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, she really wanted to know about your bowel movements. [chuckles] So, I don't feel like I have much to add, but I do eat similarly to you. I will say from trying carnivore, I noticed the same thing happening and I found it fascinating because at the time I was really learning as much as I could about the microbiota and what's happening. It's shifting when you eat more carnivore. But also, what I found fascinating is that there's this strange procedure that people can get where they bypass their stomach and they can eat and then it goes into this receptacle. I don't know if you've heard about this.

Melanie Avalon: Is it where they get rid of their colon, their large intestine.

Vanessa Spina: So, it's a fat loss strategy where it's different from that. But you're right though what I was going to say next is that what they found with people who don't have a colon and have to eliminate through this assisted method that when they were eating a lot of protein or mostly protein, there was nothing there, that the body was just basically using everything either for hormones, neurotransmitters. Our body is mostly protein, it's 40% protein. So, everything in your body, from your tissues to many of your hormones, thyroid hormone, insulin hormone, are made of peptides, proteins, so many things and I am like, “All of our cells are just little 3D protein printers.” So, we just use so much of the protein that we consume. So, either we're using it to build muscle, build actual tissue, create any of these different biomolecules or we can actually oxidize it as fuel as well.

There are certain amino acids that just fuel our colonocytes. It's like we use most of the protein. It's really not so much a fuel. Then we have the gut to help us assist and break down fiber and carbohydrate foods and then fat. There're different forms and things, but it really fascinated me that the elimination would go down and that they found that for the most part, people's digestive issues were very much improved with less fiber. Whereas, I found that to be mind-blowing because my whole life I had heard, you need more fiber, you need more fiber for good digestion, you have to have more fiber. Then I tried carnivore, and I was like, “Wait,” maybe digestion can improve this way. I read a lot of stories from people. I found that was really interesting. I don't eat carnivore now, but I eat carnivore-ish style because I eat mostly protein. I do eat similar to you in terms of cucumbers and blueberries and I do a lot of iceberg lettuce too. But, yeah, I mean, she really wanted to know about your bowel movement. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I know it's the hot topic. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and I get it. You eat a very specific way. I also eat similarly specific way but everyone's different. For some people, you might be eliminating more or less processing, eliminating more or less depending. I think it's great that you mentioned that chart. People can go look it up or get the book and [chuckles] learn about all the different types of stool. But I think it's good to know in general, what does it mean if you're really eliminating in certain ways. You don't want to be constipated, but you don't also want to be on the other end of the spectrum either. So yeah, it's a great question. 

Melanie Avalon: There's a study that people in the carnivore world often reference and I wish there were more studies like this, because it's a very small study, but it was overwhelmingly it might be one of the ones you're talking about. It was only a handful of people, but basically it was people with GI distress, and they went on a zero-fiber diet, and every single person had a complete resolution of constipation.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, yes. There's another one. I interviewed this scientist. He was out of, I think, Germany and they found that they were able to completely heal SIBO with carnivore. And then there's paleo medicine or they have a new name. It's IFM, Institute of Functional Medicine or something in Hungary. They treat cancer very successfully with ketogenic carnivore with lots of organ meats. Yeah, I'm fascinated by carnivore. I think it's an amazing protocol. And also, a lot of it is due from the fact that you're eliminating all the processed foods and the oils and seed oils and all the hyper-processed foods and all the sugar and all the wheat and the grains and everything. And it simplified life so much for me. I really enjoy the simplicity of it, and I still feel like I eat very much carnivore-ish, I was saying, “Is like carnivore plus,” mostly berries, cucumbers, and lettuce.

I feel great. I feel really satisfied from it. It's not for everybody, but I feel great on it. So, I don't feel like changing anything. But I also find it's not limiting. I had the most amazing protein pizza for dinner right before we recorded. It’s one of my favorite meals to make and we usually do pizza night at least one night a week. I get this whole massive pizza. The crust is all made out of egg whites and egg white protein powder, and I put mozzarella on it and ham, chicken, and lots of delicious herbs, olives, mushrooms, sometimes jalapenos and chilies, and it's so satisfying. It's so delicious. And then I make a yogurt dip that's a spicy ranch and it's just so good and it's so satisfying.

There's a lot you can do even though the way that I eat may sound limiting to some people, I feel very satisfied and very happy on it. I'm always very full and nourished. It's just one last thing I wanted to say. We were talking about last week about how I still mostly do two meals a day while pregnant, although, like I said, I would change it up at any time if I didn't feel good on it. But my meals are so nutrient dense that I think that's part of why I can eat this way. Whereas, if I was eating a lot of processed food or food that wasn't nutrient dense, then I probably would need to eat five or six times a day. So, nutrient density is really key. I eat a lot of organ meats and just yeah, lots and lots of nutritious proteins and some of the most nutrient dense plant foods.

Melanie Avalon: I'm curious, do you notice because we talked before about nightshades and food sensitivities. When you put the peppers on the pizza, do you notice any effects from that? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, so I was talking last episode about how I had peppers, a couple of nights and I woke up with really bad back pain, and I haven't had them since then. So, on the pizza, I put chili pepper, but it's just very small red chilies, and those don't affect me. It's when I have a big serving of red, yellow bell pepper and the more cooked they are, the more it's an issue. So, sometimes I'll make a salad with bell peppers in it or mini bell peppers and they're raw and I don't wake up with any of that pain. But when I grilled them, it must have released all of the nightshade and the lectins or whichever of the two I reacted to because it was crystal clear that that's what it was. Because it happened to me several years ago a few times, and it happened a few weeks ago, and then I retested it happened again.

I was like, “Aargh, now I have to go all morning feeling this way.” But like I was saying at the beginning, was it this episode or the one before? I don't have pain in my body ever. So, it's very easy to identify the things. But yeah, I just put the tiny little red chili peppers and those don't affect me.

Melanie Avalon: The flakes or the peppers?

Vanessa Spina: The actual peppers I slice them and then sometimes I put jalapenos, but those are from a jar and those also don't bother me. So, it's like you really have to experiment because sometimes if you just rule out everything in that family, you might not realize that some of them you're okay with or you can manage fine.

Melanie Avalon: I need to fact check this, but I think I read that humans are the only species that willingly eat and engage in foods that just create pain with no benefit beyond that, people who love really spicy foods. 

Vanessa Spina: I love spicy food. Do you? 

Melanie Avalon: Not really, no. 

Vanessa Spina: See, I was raised in Southeast Asia and in China, and I love spicy food, like spicy curry. We actually make a lot of curry with coconut milk and red curry, chicken curry, beef curry. It's so good. My husband and I go through so much hot sauce, it's crazy. I just had to buy this whole, it's a 10 liter or something of Frank's hot sauce because it's really hard to get locally. There's this store here in Prague called the American Candy Store and it has a lot of the American-type foods that you can't get here. So, I always get the classic American mustard from there because I love yellow mustard.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. So, they have non-candy stuff too. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's a lot of candy and a lot of cereal, but they have sauces, juices, drinks, and sodas and all the things that are from the US. They import them in, but then they ran out of our favorite hot sauce. I love Louisiana and Frank's and so I went on Amazon Germany, and they had this, 10-liter bottle of it. So, we have this giant one right now, but we both put hot sauce on everything and yeah, that doesn't bother me either, which is great because that would be very unfortunate. But I love the spice. It's good, thermic effect too for your metabolism. 

Melanie Avalon: That is true. Yeah. I do a lot of turmeric and ginger, but those aren't really spicy.

Vanessa Spina:  They're awesome. Yeah, yeah. I love ginger tea and making dressings with ginger, so good. 

Melanie Avalon: Is Amazon Germany in German? 

Vanessa Spina: But you can change the settings so that it's always in English. And that's the closest Amazon to us here. So that's when I order things, it's usually from there. I order a lot of clothes for Luca on there, like appliances and things.

Melanie Avalon: And are the movies in Czech if you go to a theater?

Vanessa Spina: They have both, so they're usually all English with Czech Subtitles or they'll have it dubbed in Czech for Czech speakers.

Melanie Avalon: When you watch stuff at home, do you put on subtitles? 

Vanessa Spina: Yup. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Yeah, me too. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't watch anything without them now. I just feel like it's a more engaging experience and I don't miss anything. I got Pete into it because it used to drive him crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I'm all about it and you don't even see them anymore. It's just part of it because then you go to the movie theater and I'm like, “Oh, there're no subtitles.” 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's true. I'm so used to them because every time we go to the movies, they have them here. But yeah, I can't watch anything without them now. I think it's better for you to have a lower volume anyway and have the subtitles on. But for the Oppenheimer movie, I was going to ask you if it was hard to sit through all that because three hours for me feels too long. I'm like, “I think we have to watch it at home,” even though my parents were like, “You have to see it in the movie theater. I'm like, “I don't think I can.” It's just too long. 

Melanie Avalon: It was longer in the beginning and that I was watching it. I had a moment where I was like, “Okay, I feel like we're two hours in now. I checked my thing and it was only an hour. I was like, “Oh, got ways to go.” And there's definitely a point where two hours in, it feels like it's over, but you still have an hour left and you're like, “Okay, third act.”

Vanessa Spina: Are there intermissions?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Vanessa Spina: No. Yeah, that's rough. I think the last three hour one I saw was Pearl Harbor that was a long time ago and it was long. [laughs] It was really long. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was long. I had my wine though.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that helped.

Melanie Avalon:  Yeah, well, I didn't start drinking it until the last second half. It's kind of like a boost.

Vanessa Spina: So, how much will you drink in a three-hour movie?

Melanie Avalon: Well, again, I didn't start drinking it until the end of it, so I probably also was drinking a very, very light Dry Farm Wines, which I'll drink more of than if it's like a fuller bodied one probably had a glass and a half. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That would be similar to what I would drink. Because I remember you mentioned once that you'll have just, was it, was it, maybe I'm thinking of the coffee.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, coffee. I have just a sip.

Vanessa Spina: A sip. But do you ever do that with the wine?

Melanie Avalon: I did that for a year.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I'm thinking of.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:  So, I was like, are you just having one sip? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, essentially. I consider it not I say I didn't drink that whole year because I really literally was just a sip for the hormetic potential kind of like as a digestive, I was literally taking it more of like a supplement than a drink. While I'm mentioning, I'll give links for those two things. If I can drink Dry Farm Wines that I'm just so obsessed with, you can get a bottle for a penny at dryfarmwines.com/Ifpodcast and then the coffee I drink is Danger Coffee, which is Dave Asprey's new coffee brand, and it's remineralized with over 50 trace minerals and I am obsessed with it, even though I only drink a little bit, but I really love it. Historically, I was drinking Bulletproof coffee for a decade, but then when he got kicked out of that company and started Danger Coffee, I decided to try that. So, listeners can get a discount with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON at melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee.

Okay, well, on that note, if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Feel free to let us know in your questions your favorite emoji, feel free to include emojis. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode340. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. Then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun with you again. Thank you, listeners, for the wonderful questions, for the interest in Tone Protein, and all the things that we do and for being here.

Melanie Avalon: I know I had so much fun. I enjoy our episode so much and I love hearing from the listeners. I wish we could do a live show someday.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that would be insane.

Melanie Avalon: That'd be fun. With like a, oh, I was thinking like a moderator, but that doesn't really make sense.

Vanessa Spina: I need to put that in my vibrational escrow.

Melanie Avalon: Manifest it. 

Vanessa Spina: I love that. That would be so fun. We could do like a tour.

Melanie Avalon: We could do listener Q&A.

Vanessa Spina: I had the time of my life when I went on my book tour. It was so much fun. I always think about doing a podcast tour, but yeah, together that would be insane.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh. How many places did you go on your tour.

Vanessa Spina: We had 11 cities and I just presented at all of them. It was so much fun because the very last one I went to from Miami, Connecticut, Arizona, LA, everywhere. The LA one was really fun. They were all really fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Where was the LA one?

Vanessa Spina: It was at this really cool bookstore. It's like I had seen it on Instagram before I even knew that that's where it was going to be. I can't remember the name of it now, but it was like this really cool venue--

Melanie Avalon: It’s a downtown?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, downtown. 

Melanie Avalon: I think I know what you're talking about. 

Vanessa Spina: It was really, really fun to be there. It was a thrill too. I was like--

Melanie Avalon: It's themed, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I feel like it's called couches and something or something with a C. It's relatively large and it's very unique and everyone's angry hipster working there. But it was a thrill. It was really cool to fly in there and speak there and then went to San Francisco and the very last stop was in Denver, so all my family got to come. And that one, they pretty much were all standing room only, but that one was the most awesome one because all my family was there too. They all came and got to see how well attended it was. It actually was really stormy and rainy that day. So, I was nervous before that like some people would stay home because when the weather is bad, it's less motivating to go out. But everybody came out. Yeah, I had so much fun. So, podcast tour, that would be lit that would be so much fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Was it The Last Bookstore? That's the one I was thinking of.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Yeah. Why did I think C? I don't know why, but yeah, it's The Last Bookstore.

Melanie Avalon: I saw that. I was like, wait, but that's not a C. But that's one I was thinking of. Mine was like during my dark time and it was at the Barnes & Noble in LA. There was only a handful of people and it would be interesting. I would love to do that all again now I feel like it would be a completely different experience.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, totally. Because what year was that?

Melanie Avalon: 2018.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it would be so different to do it now. The comedian that we went to go see last night, he has a podcast. It's in the top 50 or whatever of all podcasts. So many people were there. I kept saying to Pete it's because of his podcast and obviously Netflix and stuff, but it's definitely because of the podcast. I think there was like I don't know, it felt like maybe several thousand people. I know he didn't have that audience before, but he has such a popular podcast, and podcasts are global. They reach so many people. Yeah, I think it would be so cool to do it now because when I went and did that one too yeah, it was way before I had a podcast or anything like that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Wow. I'll work on my travel skills. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, [laughs] because that would be a lot of cities we'd have to go to, but we could put it in our vibrational escrow and manifest it.

Melanie Avalon: Manifestation. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and for now we can just keep our shows virtual. Thank you for the listeners for all the questions and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Talk to you soon.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 15

Episode 339: Vitamin D, Cortisol Circadian Rhythms, Lipoprotein(a), Body Scans, Metabolic Syndrome, Visceral Fat, Carnivore Diet, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 339 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: We Have Some Exciting News To Share… Grapefruit Salt Is Officially A Permanent Flavor And Is Now Available Year Round. For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. Also, Grapefruit Salt is officially a permanent flavor and is now available year round! For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: We Have Some Exciting News To Share… Grapefruit Salt Is Officially A Permanent Flavor And Is Now Available Year Round. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

go to melanieavalon.com/vitamind with code SUNSHINE15 to save 15% off MDLogic's brand new vitamin D Supplement!

Listener Q&A: Patty - What are your thoughts on high cortisol and extended fasts?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #218 - Dr. Joel Kahn

I'm Biohacking My Health, the Results Are Incredible

Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity

Systematic review and meta-analysis reveals acutely elevated plasma cortisol following fasting but not less severe calorie restriction

Time Restricted Feeding Reduces Inflammation and Cortisol Response to a Firegrounds Test in Professional Firefighters

The Window Matters: A Systematic Review of Time Restricted Eating Strategies in Relation to Cortisol and Melatonin Secretion

Intermittent fasting’s impact on autophagy, insulin sensitivity and cortisol in a clinical setting

A Preliminary Study of Circadian Serum Cortisol Concentrations in Response to a 72-hour Fast in Rheumatoid Arthritis Patients not Previously Treated with Corticosteroids

Effects of a 48-h fast on heart rate variability and cortisol levels in healthy female subjects

Early Time-Restricted Feeding Improves 24-Hour Glucose Levels and Affects Markers of the Circadian Clock, Aging, and Autophagy in Humans

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 339 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone breath ketone Analyzer and ToneLUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 339 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: Doing great, how are you? 

Melanie Avalon: Good. I'm trying to see. Okay, now for listeners, we're at the point where we're recording pretty far in advance, so I'm trying to look at future us at this time. I have two timely related things related to this time. Actually, I will save one of them. Really quick announcement, I think, when this comes out, unless things have changed. Do you take a vitamin D supplement, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm supposed to be right now. I do take one right now, but it's not a pure one. I take a prenatal by Thorne. It's called Basic Nutrients Prenatal and it has vitamin D in it, so that's what I'm doing. But I also like to get most of my nutrients through food sources. So, I like to add cod liver oil, like just drops of cod liver oil. I think that's what a lot of the drops on the market are actually made of.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's a perfect segue. So, they probably are if they don't say that they're vegan or if they're not synthetic. I guess that would be the alternative for the vitamin D supplements, right?

Vanessa Spina: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Do you regularly test your vitamin D levels? I'm just curious. 

Vanessa Spina: I probably should, [laughs] but I do when I do a full panel. But I don't go out of my way to test just vitamin D more than that, more than annually.

Melanie Avalon: I track mine a lot with InsideTracker, actually. It was funny. I remember one time I was low, so I was like, “I'm going to hit this hard.” So, I started doing the supplements. I started doing-- I know this is controversial, but it was during the winter, so I think I started doing two minutes in a UVB bed every other week or so, and my D levels shot through the roof, it was too high after that. But in any case, hopefully when this comes out, so I actually would love to make a vitamin D supplement because I do take one every single day and have for years. The literature on vitamin D levels is just pretty overwhelmingly positive for the effects on particularly the immune system and so many people are deficient. So, it's on my list of things to make.

It's probably going to be a while aways though, because there are so many other things that I want to be making. Hopefully, when this comes out, hopefully we'll be approaching the launch of my Spirulina supplement, which is very exciting. But in any case, I'm excited. I personally take a liquid form right now, so that's the form I want to make. But MD Logic is making a capsule form that, again, I think should have just launched. But I'm really excited about that because A, I know a lot of people do prefer capsules, so that's a great avenue for that and then it really is. If you take capsules, it's going to be the best form on the market. And speaking to you, what you just said about the source, it's vitamin D3 from lichen. So, it's “Real.” It's not synthetic, but it's vegan, which is super cool.

It comes with K2 and K4, which are really necessary cofactors or important cofactors for vitamin D. They have their own array of benefits. So, I'm excited because I just feel like this is going to be the best vitamin D capsule supplement on the market. Comes in a glass bottle, of course, tested for purity and potency. No problematic fillers. I think they're using an olive oil or a vitamin E as the carrier. I'll have to double check that. But regardless, they should be having a launch special. I think hopefully friends are on my email list and following my updates and my text updates for that, it's avalonx.us/emaillist, text updates, you text AvalonX to 877-861-8318. So, hopefully this hasn't changed. I think the code SUNSHINE15 will get you 15% off one bottle or the subscriptions are going to be 25% off. And that's just during the launch period.

I will make a link for that to go directly to it because it's on MD Logic site. So, for that it will be melanieavalon.com/vitamind. So yes, I just wanted to announce that I'm very excited about that. I have two other quick things, but anything from you? How are things with you? 

Vanessa Spina: Good, Good. I was just going to say that I like to get a lot of vitamin D from the sun. Right now, we're having an extended summer, which I was hoping for.

Melanie Avalon: This is how we're different. You were hoping for, I'm like dying. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because we had about two to three weeks at the end of July, first week of August that were fall here. It was rainy, cold, and it's just not fun when you have a two-year-old and you want to go do stuff outside. So, I just was like, “We were robbed.” [laughs] We were robbed of summer. So, I was really hoping and we often do get in Prague an extended summer into September. Right now, it's like every single day is sunny and beautiful for the next two weeks and then we're going back to our favorite place in Greece. So, I'm going to be getting a ton of vitamin D. [chuckles] Continuing to get a ton of vitamin D. But I do use an app that's really great for--

Melanie Avalon: D Minder?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I've been using D Minder for years and I use a new one, which is a circadian one that’s great for also knowing the different windows of light for morning light, like UVA light is earlier versus the later light, when you're actually getting vitamin D. But we happen to live in a place in Prague that does not get vitamin D for most of the winter. So, I try to really get as much as possible spring, summer, and into the late summer because we just don't get access to it at all. The angle of the sun is too low in the winter, so soaking it all in right now. I can't wait to get back to the beach. I'm so excited to be back at our favorite resort and just be on the beach with Luca, enjoying our last little holiday just as a family of three, because there's only a few months before we're going to be a family of four, so it's really crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I'm so excited for you. I'm also thinking about the experience of being pregnant on the beach, and I really can't think of anything [laughs] I'd rather not be doing. Oh, my goodness. It makes me so happy, though.

Vanessa Spina: Why?

Melanie Avalon:  Well, the beach already not so much a fan.

Vanessa Spina: Not a big beach girl. 

Melanie Avalon: Not a big. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: It's my favorite place in the world. 

Melanie Avalon: It's hot, there's a lot of wind. You're in the elements.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. You're in nature and you're like grounding. Okay, this may be an area where we're very different. You're grounding on the beach, you're barefoot on the earth, you're getting all those negative ions, you're getting rid of excess positive charge, and it's multiplied because you have the salt water, which you can walk into, and you can swim in the sea, and you got the sun. It's just such a healthy combination. [chuckles] Yeah, it's nature. Nature is the best, right. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The beach does have going for it that there's no grass. That's really nice. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's just sand. I guess if it wasn't so hot. 

Vanessa Spina: I've always loved the beach. I mean, you can stay in the shade, have a beach umbrella, which we always have, and stay shady, or you can go in the water to cool off, but it's got to be one of my favorite things. I've been trying to formulate a plan for years to move us full time to a beach location. We're obsessed with the thought of doing that. We're trying to find a way to make it manifest at some point. But it's my favorite place, I can’t wait. So, when you have a kid too, it's even better because the beach is just a giant playground. So, all day you can just do sandcastles and do all this fun stuff in the sand. It's so much fun. It's the best. So, yeah, I'm really excited.

Melanie Avalon: I did use to love it.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Growing up. I mean, I used to go to the pool and lay out there like slather myself in coconut oil.

Vanessa Spina: Are you more of an indoor person now? Or--

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's a good time. 

Vanessa Spina: At least you have red light therapy panels.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know.

Vanessa Spina: Cryo and all that stuff to duplicate nature.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, that's honestly the point. Did you know finding this out has to do with my third podcast coming out that I'm very excited about teaser. Oh, I wonder if that'll be out by the time this comes out. Regardless, did you know there's a lake that is pink?

Vanessa Spina: I didn't. I know. I went to a place in the Bahamas that is known for having pink sand, which was an absolute dream. There are wild horses running on the pink sand. It's absolutely amazing, called Harbor Island in the Bahamas. I hadn't heard of the pink lake.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That is beautiful. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Just Google pink lake. It'll come up. It's called the one I was looking at was Lake Hillier. H-I-L-L-I-E-R. But the thing that haunts me about it is they said they don't know why it's pink.

Vanessa Spina: I was going to say it sounds like sketchy [laughs] like what is in it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And then the crazier thing is they said the water, if you put it in a bottle, is still pink.

Vanessa Spina: Okay, that does not look natural. [laughs] I'm looking at it right now. Middle island in the Goldfields-Esperance region in Western Australia. That looks like a tailings pond or something from a mine. That does not look good or natural at all. [laughs] It could be from-- because Western Australia has a lot of mines, lot of them, and a lot of them have tailings ponds where they deal with the waste. So, it could be from the chemicals of that or something I wonder. It's really close to the ocean though.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Maybe it's just the aliens. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Okay. So, it says it's because of the presence of salt-tolerant algae that produces carotenoids.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so it could be like a vitamin drink. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. We could start a brand here, [laughs] like pink water. That would be a thing. That would be a thing. 

Vanessa Spina: Xanthan is getting more and more attention to. Apparently, it's got a lot of health benefits, but yeah, that's really interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So, yes, pink lakes. One other last thing before we jump in for listeners. We are going to be bringing Valter Longo onto the show, which I'm very excited about. I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and he was on this show years ago. Gin and I actually had him on. So, he's the founder of ProLon and he's the scientist behind the fasting-mimicking diet. He's a researcher at USC. I think, he's the head of their longevity school. He's a renowned scientist in the fasting and antiaging longevity sphere. So, I am very excited to have him on this show. So, if listeners have questions for him, anything about fasting, fasting-mimicking diet, longevity, definitely submit those questions. Yeah, I'm excited because they reached out because ProLon wanted to sponsor, and I was like, “I don't know that's the best fit,” because I don't personally do, ProLon, Vanessa doesn't, I don't think any of the hosts on this show have.

However, I do think I tried it and it was too hard for me. I do think it has a lot of benefits though, but so when they said that, I was like, “Well, Valter can come on and talk about it.” So, I'm very, very much excited about that. All righty, anything from you, or shall we jump into things? 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to get into some of these questions.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Would you like to read the first question? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, Patty from Facebook asked, “What are your thoughts on high cortisol and extended fasts? I was told that high cortisol people should only fast 12 to 13 hours from a reliable source.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Patty, so thank you so much for your question. Okay, so I took a two-pronged approach to this because you ask about extended fast, but then you mentioned people fasting for 12 to 13 hours. So, I wanted to include intermittent fasting as well because it sounds like you're also curious about people who are fasting 14, 15, 16 hours. So, I wanted to address it from both points, is the point. So, I did a deep dive into the literature, wasn't quite sure what I was going to find, and the results are all over the place. It's a hot mess if ever there was. Oh, I got so excited. Sorry, sorry not to go on a Peter Attia tangent, but I am now 25% of the way through his book. Vanessa, I swear, I know I said this last time, but this book, it takes a long time to read, a very long time to read. He used the phrase hot mess to refer to-- he was talking about Lp(a) which I recently went on a tangent. Are you familiar with Lp(a)?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I studied it in bio-chem a bit.

Melanie Avalon: Just as a quick disclaimer or just as a quick PSA for people. I am so sorry for the tangent. I recently interviewed Dr. Joel Kahn, who is a very renowned cardiologist, very big in the vegan sphere, and his newest book is about Lp(a) and it is blowing my mind. I don't know why we're not testing more for this. It's basically, if you are genetically disposed to having a variant that makes you produce high Lp(a), there's just so much terminology behind this. It's essentially a marker related to LDL that independent of LDL levels, independent of your cholesterol panel, independent of everything else, is a very high predictor of heart disease. If you have a genetic tendency towards it, basically you're very inclined to probably get heart disease. And dietary and exercise interventions don't really affect Lp(a), so it's like a whole thing, but you can test for it, and you only have to test for it once because it is genetic. So, when your test comes back, basically it's probably either going to be nonexistent or very, very low, or it's probably going to be high. So that's something that you can test for. But Peter was talking about it. He said, “This hot mess of a lipoprotein,” and it made me so happy. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: I'm noticing that more and more in books that people are using or interspersing highly technical terminology with highly casual terminology like that. I don't know-

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's fun. It's fine. It's like you want to hear the book in the author's voice, and I think you should interject personality if you have one. [laughs] It should be in there. It's probably something I struggle with when I write because I'm like, “I have to be so serious.” But, yeah, I think it's great if you get to a point where you can be lighthearted. And one of my favorite writers, actually, is Jason Fung when it comes to health writing, like scientific writing, because he breaks things down really well, but he's super snarky and it just makes it really fun to read. He's snarky about the things that we all should be snarky about. Yeah, I think he's cheeky and it makes it way more fun to read.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I write that way. Like, I put in little quips for sure. Other sidenote, I did want to mention that I don't think it had published since last. I think last time, I reported it had not come out yet, which was the Newsweek piece actually published. And that was my first--

Vanessa Spina: Oh, congrats. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. That was my first written piece-

Vanessa Spina: Oh, cool. 

Melanie Avalon: -in a very credible publication source. So, I actually thought of you though. Well, I think of you all the time. But I also thought of you specifically, because when they were asking for the before and after photos and I was thinking about how when I read your book and you had your before and after photos and I remember you talking in your book about how even when you weighed more, it wasn't quite as noticeable because of your tall frame and the way you carried it. I was wondering if because the experience I went through because they were asking for before and after photos. The experience I went through was what photos to pick and bracing myself for feedback or backlash about. I thought people would be, “I'm either not overweight enough in the before picture or not thin enough or too thin.” Or I'm just really intrigued by people's response to judging people, especially when it comes to something like before and after photos.

Did you have any of that experience when you were picking yours out? I was wondering if people would either be like you look like the same person, or if they'd be like, you don't look the same at all.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I mean, I know the one that I used in my book, I don't really feel like I looked that heavy before. And people are used to seeing more dramatic transformations. But I do really try to explain that I happen to be one of those people who I'm very concerned about who don't show as much on the outside, like skinny fat or thin on the outside, fat on the inside. Because I was 38% body fat, which is quite obese. It was definitely considered at least obese. I think the cut off for morbidly obese, it's definitely higher than that. I wouldn't say I was morbidly obese, but there's a lot of people walking around like me who just don't feel good in their body and they're told that they look fine, which [chuckles] is what kept happening to me. And that's why I always rail against using the scale because the BMI index is so outdated.

When I finally had my body composition scan done, which shouldn't have been something I had to go out and seek on my own, it should be something that is just annual or every other year thing that we do as a part of our medical routines, because we get our bone density assessed in same machine. So just like scan your body composition while you're there, see how your muscle mass is trending. But when I saw that I was that high, everything made sense. So, I do try to talk about that specifically for people who just don't feel good in their body. They don't know why, but they carry their weight okay because they have height or whatnot. Then getting a scan done I think can really help because those people are at risk like I was of just continuously getting worse metabolically and yet maybe not questioning it so much or thinking that they're fine because on the outside they don't look that heavy.

But what astonishes me about body composition is you could see a person that is big, physically large. They could be way more metabolically healthy than someone who looks small because they are mostly muscle. Like say their body fat percentage is 20% because they work out a lot. So, their BMI would show that they were unhealthy or their BMI would definitely show that they were overweight, which would be totally false because they're actually metabolically very healthy. Then someone who just looks has a smaller frame, but is really under muscled, which I was, and over fat. So, yeah, [laughs] I understand. People ask me all the time for before and after photos, but there's so much as well that you can't tell just from the way you look on how you feel on the inside.

Melanie Avalon: I am so glad you drew attention to that. It hadn't actually occurred to me to really point it out from that perspective. Actually, interestingly also, I'll read a quote from Peter's book, by the way it's called Outlive, and he says it's what you just said. He says, “Well, individual fat storage capacity seems to be influenced by genetic factors. This is a generalization, but people of Asian descent, for example, tend to have a much lower capacity to store fat on average than Caucasians. There are other factors at play as well, but that explains in part why some people can be obese but metabolically healthy, while others can appear skinny while still walking around with three or more markers of metabolic syndrome. It's these people who are most at risk.” Then he says, “All things being equal, someone who carries a bit of body fat may also have greater fat storage capacity and thus more metabolic leeway than someone who appears to be more lean.”

He goes on to more detail, but then he says, “This is why I insist my patients undergo a DEXA scan annually, and I am far more interested in their visceral fat than their total body fat.” What's interesting is one of the comments, actually-- so most people were overwhelmingly supportive with the before and after photos, and most people actually said that they thought, I don't even look like the same person. A lot of people were, “Is that you?” I was like, “Yes, that is me.” One person, though, did say-- in the same comment, they said something about like they were sure I felt better now, but I looked healthier before. I was like, okay, I don't really know what to do with that.

I actually don't think I look healthier before, but just goes to show that people will have their own opinions of everything. But I agree so much. I just think there's a problem with putting everything in a box as to what health would look like. Like, we think it would manifest as this certain thing when really metabolic syndrome, so much of it is invisible. Out of the five metabolic syndrome factors, only one of them presents outwardly, which is obesity, right? Is that correct? Because yeah, blood pressure. Yeah. The other ones you're not going to see on the outside. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I also think we live in a world, especially today, where certain things are being normalized more and more like pathogen, just disease is being normalized. Obesity is being normalized. I'm sure people have seen those photos of the store mannequins, the male store mannequins that are quite large and overweight looking. It's like we live in this society where these things are being normalized, I think in an attempt to protect people's feelings. But it's definitely not advantageous when you understand how much obesity is connected to cardiometabolic risk, to cancer risk, to Alzheimer's risk, to so many different diseases and conditions. I don't know why we're normalizing that, but we don't see as many people who are maybe on the other side of it where you're a biohacker and you're like this is what that looks like, if that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: I had this exact conversation the other day while at cryotherapy with somebody and actually it was with somebody who is overweight and struggling with their weight. It was a really nice conversation because I didn't bring it up, she did. She felt very strongly about it. She felt very strongly about what you were just saying, like how it's being normalized. She was struggling with her weight, but she was also expressing the issues with how it's being normalized and how there's pressure to, in a way, not want to change your weight. Because then it's like you're subscribing to the narrative that you need to be thin, which I don't know, it makes me all really uncomfortable.

Vanessa Spina: It makes me uncomfortable too. But I think there're a few things that people really don't talk about enough. I don't talk about it very often either, but you and I were talking about it recently in a podcast and it got me thinking is the fact that I don't ever have pain in my body. [chuckles] I wake up every day, and if there's a pain, it's like, what is going on? What's happening? Okay, [laughs] I have to go back through my food journal, the day before, figure out, did I pull something? It's just so rare for me to have pain in my body. We don't even have pain relievers in our home because we just don't ever use them. If I have any pain, I'll tend to use-- If it's like a muscle issue or something, I'll use red light therapy. But I don't have pain in my body. Every day, I feel pain free. I feel amazing in my body every day. I feel energetic in my body every day. I haven't been sick. I could count one hand the number of times I've been sick in the last eight years.

I know people who are chronically sick with colds and flus basically for half the year. I'm like, I couldn't imagine living like that. But I can remember what my life was like before when I was at 38% body fat. I remember having this thought where I was like, every day when I wake up, something else hurts. Like, I either have a headache today or I have this or I have that. Every day, there was some pain. When you get into this phase of practicing super healthy lifestyle like we do and so many of the biohacking things that we do for circadian health and alignment, all these things, and you're like, “I feel amazing in my body,” and this is the way I think a lot of us are supposed to feel. 

And you don't know the difference until you've experienced not feeling pain and not getting sick, and then you're like, “Oh, my gosh, I can't believe how I was living before.” In terms of quality of life, we talk so much about appearance, but what about just the quality of your existence? How do you feel every day in your body? Because it's really hard to go out and conquer the world and follow all your dreams. When you don't feel good, you have no energy, you're sick all the time, or you have chronic pain, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Since having an Oura Ring, the only time I was sick was with COVID. Otherwise there's not been any fever because that was the first time, I had a fever. And I was like, “Oh, this is what it looks like on the Oura Ring.” I've had the Oura Ring for over three years. So, that means at least in that amount of time, I was only sick with COVID The headache’s one for me. I used to get headaches all the time growing up and I just thought it was normal. I thought that's just normal like you get headaches. 

Vanessa Spina: I thought that was life. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Vanessa Spina: And that's something you can't take a before and after photo of.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I share my journey, my health journey in the article, and it's called I'm Biohacking My Health. The results are incredible, and it's on Newsweek, hah [laughs]. 

Vanessa Spina: I just found the article and it looks amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. 

Vanessa Spina: Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. The only thing I would change is-- so it is all my words, but the way it was written was they sent me questions, and I answered all of it, and then they put it together. So, if I feel like if I had written it from start to finish, I would have written it a little bit differently. But it's still all my words. It's very surreal. The best comment I got, though this was the best comment somebody DM'd me, and she said she used to work for Newsweek, and so she said she just wanted to let me know how basically big of a deal this was. Congratulations. And I was like, “Oh, my goodness.” It makes me so happy. I'm really honored about that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I can't wait to read it. I feel like we totally went off the rails with the question.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. I know. Oh, my goodness. Okay, bringing it back. 

Vanessa Spina: Sorry, Patty. 

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I know. Sorry. We're back. Cortisol, fasting, here we go. So, first of all, what does cortisol do? So, cortisol is a hormone. It's actually the end product of the HPA axis, which is involved in our stress response. And cortisol's role is really helping us respond to challenges and stressors in our lives. So, it does things like enhance our cardiovascular output, our breathing, it helps us mobilize energy. It helps deliver energy to our brain and our muscles. So, it's a good thing we want it. Of course, people get really nervous about it because there's always this idea that we're overproducing cortisol or that we have too much of it, or that it's spiking or at the wrong times. So, speaking of times, the normal rhythm of cortisol, it should be in a 24-hour rhythm and it actually tends to rise later during sleep and it peaks in the early morning.

So, people might have heard of the dawn effect, which is like this spike in cortisol that happens in the early morning and then it should decline throughout the day, and then it should be lowest right before you fall asleep and then rinse and repeat. So, eating, interestingly enough can have different effects on cortisol. I did not know this. I was wrong. So, eating actually tends to increase cortisol just a little bit. I thought it did the opposite. During the daytime, when you eat food, it actually creates a small acute increase in cortisol toward the beginning of the meal that peaks around an hour after starting and then it starts going down. You can also get anticipatory cortisol peak. So, if you are about to eat, they've seen in rodents that rodents will have a pre-prandial, which means a pre-eating peak in cortisol.

So, one of the problems, because there are a lot of studies looking at cortisol and fasting, they're mostly the ones I could find are in Ramadan studies. So that's a religious type of fasting where people are not eating during daylight. The main issue and it's almost like this issue is so blinding that I almost don't even feel comfortable. I mean, I can share the results, but I don't even know what we can really draw from this actually, speaking of. [laughs] I highly recommend, Peter Attia has an episode out right now, although by the time this comes out it will be a while ago. But it's all about how to interpret studies and what all the different studies mean and how they're created, and it's really, really helpful. So, I highly recommend listening to that. So, back to the problem with cortisol. Cortisol, when we look at, how we talk on this show about how wearing a CGM can be so beneficial because you get to see your blood sugar levels all the time and not just in one given moment. A snapshot like that you would with a blood finger prick.

Cortisol is the same thing. So, looking at a snapshot of cortisol, it doesn't tell you what cortisol was doing the rest of the time. It doesn't tell you if that was just a transitory peak for whatever reason. It just doesn't tell you a lot. And then on top of that, half of the studies out there or a lot of the studies out there, don't even say when they tested the cortisol. So, it's like we don't even know what to do with that data. And then on top of that, if they're only testing once or a few times, it's not necessarily a very clear picture. So, point is, it's hard to know how to even read all these studies. But I did find a nice systemic review that looked at a lot of Ramadan studies and it looked at how it affected cortisol. 

Just to show you how it's all over the place, so this study was called-- it was December 2020 and it was called The Window Matters: A Systemic Review of Time Restricted Eating Strategies in Relation to Cortisol and Melatonin Secretion. It included 14 studies. And in the review, they found that two out of three of the Ramadan papers noted an abolishing of the circadian rhythm of cortisol. So, that doesn't sound good. But going back to what I was just saying about cortisol being a typical 24-hour rhythm, so basically that rhythm was just off. It was just different on Ramadan. One of the studies found-- this is interesting, found increased cortisol levels in the not fasting group. So that's contrary to what you might think. One of the studies found that if you skipped dinner, it reduced evening cortisol and non-significantly raised morning cortisol.

And on the contrary, those who skipped breakfast, so fasting in the morning had reduced morning cortisol. So, that's actually the opposite of the normal axis. They concluded that that was a blunting and indicated a dysfunctional HPA axis. The crazy thing is-- so I'm going to leave that study for a second. I had gone on a tangent, it was when Cynthia was co-hosting the show, I believe. Dr. Sarah Ballantyne had done an overview of some studies and she had referenced a 2019 study called Early Time-Restricted Feeding Improves 24 Hours Glucose Levels and Affects Markers at the Circadian Clock, Aging, and Autophagy in Humans. What was interesting is she talked about how they found that it affected cortisol and she was saying that might be a problem for people with cortisol issues. But then what was ironic was if you looked at the study, they actually found that it did, in my opinion, what you would want to happen.

So, it actually found that early time restricted feeding increased cortisol in the morning and reduced cortisol at night. So that is in line with the normal circadian cortisol rhythm. So, I don't see that as a problem for most people. And then comparing it to what I just read from that other review, it's similar into how they also said that dinner skipping, which would be early time restricted feeding, also resulted in significantly reduced evening cortisol and non-significantly raised morning cortisol. So, basically when you're fasting-- so you can't just apply everything to intermittent fasting without looking at the early versus later versions of it because it might manifest differently. So, also in that study that looked at the 14 studies, they found, for example, that one study cortisol maintained its normal rhythm, but that it had a biphasic pattern, so it was shifted or different.

One of the other studies in the group found that the fasting decreased morning cortisol at the end of Ramadan. Then another one of the studies actually found that it rose cortisol in the fasting group of pregnant women. But the problem with these studies was that neither of them reported the time of the sample collection. So that goes to what I was saying and that it's really hard to draw conclusions when they don't say when they collected it. There's also another study that's been quoted a lot and maybe it's just because I've seen it a lot, but it actually looked at intermittent fasting and professional firefighters and it was an eight-week intervention with time restricted eating and they actually found that it reduced their levels of cortisol. The conclusion from that study, they thought that the contradictory effects of intermittent fasting diets on different markers might have to do with the short duration of the studies and that we just need longer studies to see what is actually happening. 

So, again, that one was a two-month study, eight weeks. So, basically it would be nice to have longer studies. Then I did go down the rabbit hole of longer fasts because I know Patty was asking about longer fasts and I really thought I'd be able to find more. I thought this was going to be easy. I thought I was going to type it in and it would be like here's like 50 studies--

Vanessa Spina: That’s what I looked into a little bit more, it was the extended--

Melanie Avalon: The ones I found were like very-- they weren't actually looking at cortisol specifically, it was just included in the study or some of them sort of were, but it was like different-- I'll just tell you what I found. So, I found one that was looking at the circadian cortisol concentrations and a 72-hour fast in patients with rheumatoid arthritis not previously treated with corticosteroids. And that study found, so it was a three-day fast and they found that overall, the 24-hour free and total cortisol concentrations rose by-- so the cortisol rose by 50%. And then another study called effects of a 48-hour fast on heart rate variability and cortisol levels in healthy female subjects. So that was looking at, again, a two-day fast in women. It found that the cortisol profile shifted towards lower values from baseline to the end of the experiment and they concluded that a total fast induced parasympathetic withdrawal with simultaneous sympathetic activation, in other words it increased their stress response.

Then, I found another study, and this was from 1996, so take that with a grain of salt. But the title literally answers it and the title, It says Fasting as a Metabolic Stress Paradigm Selectively Amplifies Cortisol Secretory Burst Mass and Delays the Time of Maximal Nyctohemeral Cortisol Concentrations in Healthy Men. So, they found basically that in fasted men-- this went up to a five-day water fast and they found that the 24-hour cortisol production increased in bursts by 1.6 fold. So, that is interesting. So, all of that to say, the takeaway that I had from all of this was A, it's hard to draw conclusions because there's not a lot of good data to go on, but B, in shorter fasts, so intermittent fasting during the day, it seems to be all over the place in people's responses. It seems to probably depend on when you're doing your window.

But it might have no effect, it might increase cortisol, it might decrease cortisol. It's just all over the place. It seems like if you had to pick a window most in line with the normal cortisol pattern, it's probably early time restricted feeding. With the longer fasts, it seems to definitely increase cortisol. At least everything I saw on longer fasts, it did increase. That was all over the place. I don't even know how helpful that was. But Vanessa, what did you find? 

Vanessa Spina: I'm glad that you covered all of that, especially on the shorter-term fasts. A couple things that I would add is, well, first of all, I would want to ask if you've had your cortisol assessed with a functional medicine practitioner or someone who specializes in hormonal health. They probably could guide you better on this in terms of actually advising you on what would be recommended but just looking at the research out there. So, I thought I would also find immediate answers. I did find, though, one systematic review and meta-analysis where they were looking at the plasma cortisol levels following fasting and also caloric restriction. There're a few things that stood out for me. The first one that was really interesting is that they noted that cortisol levels went up quite a bit at the beginning, especially with fasting, not so much with caloric restriction, so it's more so with fasting.

So, I mean, you could probably consider a very low-calorie diet or low-calorie diet, just intraday fasting or time restricted eating. But they found that cortisol really went up with the extended fasting and that's more like the prolonged fasting that you were asking about, Patty but a couple interesting things about that. The first is that it tapers off, it spikes at the beginning and it seems to level off. The second observation is that some of it is related to perceived stress. So, I would say if doing prolonged fasting, if you perceive that to be something very stressful, you're probably going to have higher cortisol levels as a result of that because you're perceiving it as a stressor. I would think that that's probably something that happens with people who are more beginners at it whereas people who've been doing extended fasting, like for example, just using myself as an example, I do extended fasts a few times a year seasonally and I don't find it stressful.

I've been doing it for so many years and I actually look forward to it. It's just such a nice break and reset for me. So, I would consider myself an advanced faster though. So, it depends on where you're at. And some people don't find fasting that easy. I think that there's definitely ways to get some of those benefits of autophagy without having to do like a full out fast. Like you could do more of a keto fast with MCT oil, coffee and that kind of thing, bone broth, those kind of like “fasting aids.” Another really interesting thing that they found is that it looks like the cortisol levels go up when salt gets really low. I think that that's probably why it's very much recommended during extended fasting to supplement with electrolytes. Our favorite LMNT electrolytes. I always supplement with them on a daily basis because I eat very low carb and so my body does not retain as much of the electrolytes when those electrolytes are being filtered by the kidneys. So, I take them every day.

But if I'm doing extended fast, I take a lot of sodium on those days, there’s lot of LMNT and I also supplement just with sodium. So, I think that that makes a lot of sense because of how-- what's happening during the stress or prolonged fasting is that HPA axis, as you mentioned, is being activated as a perceived stressor. Last two things, I wanted to say [chuckles] about it is that cortisol going up is not always a bad thing. Like, for example, our mutual friend, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. She talks about how her patients, when she gets them on a higher protein diet, all of their markers improve. For some reason, they tend to have slightly higher cortisol, but she doesn't consider it to be a negative. They tend to also have slightly higher blood glucose on average. But that's because of a lot of different mechanisms, because you're now relying more on gluconeogenesis as opposed to stored glycogen.

So, having cortisol a little bit higher isn't always necessarily something to fear. It also is going up because on extended fasting, you are then activating all your act-- well, first you're flipping that metabolic switch. You're going from primarily burning glucose to primarily burning fat. And you need cortisol to help be in that catabolic mode to be breaking down fat stores. So, I think that depending on your goals at the fast where you're at, if you do have high cortisol levels already that you've had tested and you're working with someone and they've said to avoid stress or avoid anything that raises your cortisol, then prolonged fasting is probably not necessarily a great idea. This meta-analysis did find that it does go up quite a bit with fasting, although it does tend to level off after the initial spike, which I thought was really interesting. 

They also seemed to have a mixed conclusion on it, but we understand the mechanisms. But they did say that with very low-calorie diets or less intense low-calorie diets, it's not so much an issue. The higher cortisol is not as much of an issue. So, it brought up some interesting points. We'll definitely link this in this meta-analysis as well as all the research that you brought up. But the very last thing that I wanted to mention that they talk about in the conclusions is, so they acknowledge that they haven't studied the consequences of this, what they refer to as transient hypercortisolemia, because they're saying it's transient, it has a spike, but then it levels off. But they actually suggest that this elevated cortisol might mediate some of the adverse effects of caloric restriction in the short term. So, they talked about a few different ways that it could help with some of the adverse effects of caloric restriction and also improve fat loss.

So, again, that cortisol is being mobilized because your body needs to be in that catabolic mode and break down fat. And that's definitely what you are being mostly fueled off during a prolonged fast after you get past the first one to three days, there's a little bit of protein breakdown there, but once you get past that, you're just purely burning off of fat-- So, running off of fat. [laughs] So, it doesn't seem to be super clear, but on an individual basis, I would definitely recommend consulting with a hormone specialist or your doctor to look at different strategies. But it does seem like from everything that we've been talking about that those sort of, like you mentioned 12 to 13 hours fast or the intraday fasting during the day, some time restricted feeding doesn't seem to have as much of an effect on the cortisol levels. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for finding that study. That's awesome. It's like I'm haunted by it. I remember that exact sentence in Dr. Gabriel Lyon's book about the blood sugar levels. I didn't remember that she talked about the cortisol as well, so I'm glad you mentioned that. 

Vanessa Spina: No, she just told me that on an interview that we did together. I don't know where it would be in the book, but I was just asking her specifically about that because people get concerned whenever blood glucose goes up, but she doesn't consider it to be a bad thing. It's just something that seems to happen when you're in a different metabolism there, like you're running a little bit more off of that gluconeogenesis than off of the glycogen.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense why [laughs] I didn't remember it. She does mention the blood sugar part in her book and I was going to ask her about that because I actually don't know how I feel about that because I did experience that when I was essentially zero carb, my fasting blood sugar was higher. Then when I switched to bringing back carbs, it was lower.

Vanessa Spina: So, what's interesting about that, especially the morning blood glucose, is when you are high carb or higher carb, your blood glucose tends to be lower because you're running off of the stored glycogen throughout the night. But when you are doing higher protein, lower carb, then because you're running more off the gluconeogenesis, you usually deplete the glycogen throughout the night and so you start making some glucose in your liver and that's why the morning glucose readings tend to be higher.

Melanie Avalon: What's weird though, either way it's your liver regulating everything. It's the liver basically using the glycogen stores or creating its own. So, do you think that just when it's creating its own, it tends to favor a higher resting blood sugar rate?

Vanessa Spina: I think that it's just the mechanism because instead of having it all stored, you're slowly breaking it down. So, if you're eating lots of carbs, you get the glycogen. So, you can just run off of that in your various muscle cells and your various tissues and you have some obviously stored in your liver, which you can also kick out. But if you are running out of glycogen and you're having to make it, then it's just going to be a little bit higher. But I can tell you I run off a lot of protein mostly. I really don't eat a lot of carbs. My glucose is 70s every day. So, when I was doing carnivore, it tended to be more in the 80s but I think I was just eating more then, so especially like when people first go on carnivore, they're just like, “Oh my gosh, all the ribeyes, give me all the ribeyes, give me all the meat.”

I think also I was overcompensating for a while for all the years that I didn't eat protein. A lot of people have that effect where they'll eat a lot at the beginning and then they go down to about half that after they adjust. So, I definitely eat like way less than I used to when I first did carnivore so that could be part of it. But also, as I talked about before, I closed my eating window pretty early. And that I think makes a big difference.

Melanie Avalon: That would make sense, especially with what I read in all those studies. One last point as well about the cortisol and fat burning. I'd read this a lot before and then I again, just read it as well in Peter's book. He says, “Cortisol is especially potent with a double-edged effect of depleting subcutaneous fat, which is generally beneficial, and replacing it with more harmful visceral fat.” I've also heard though and I've read this somewhere else, so basically what he's saying there is that cortisol helps you burn fat, the fat that you can pinch and see, which tends to be relatively metabolically benign, and it can encourage visceral fat storage, like as the hormone itself can do that. But I've also read elsewhere that basically it can go down different pathways. Basically, the state that you're in can have different effects as to whether or not it's encouraging fat storage or not compared to breaking it down more.

I'm trying to remember the technicalities of it. I think it's like does it have to do with-- I don't want to say the wrong hormone. There was like a lot that went into it. Basically. It's complicated. [chuckles] Here's the point, really glad that you made that very practical for her with working with a doctor and trying to see what's actually going on. People can do a DUTCH test, which is a 24-hour urine sampling test for cortisol levels and then they can work with a practitioner to help interpret it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and we should mention the link for LMNT as well if anyone is wanting to take electrolytes when they're fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, thank you. Because they can get it for free. So, you can get free electrolytes to try if you go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and that will get you a free sample pack with any order. We love LMNT electrolytes around here. I'll also mention that if people are unaware, a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor. We love NutriSense, so you can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and the coupon code IFPODCAST will get you 30% off. So, yeah, okay. It was great answering Patty's question. [laughs] Anything from you, Vanessa, before we wrap this up? 

Vanessa Spina: I know I enjoyed the episode and the discussion and all the things and so happy for you with your Newsweek article. It's really huge and huge moment and you should feel so proud of yourself and yeah, just congrats on that and I can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much. That means so much coming from you. I really, really appreciate it. So, for listeners, you can submit your own questions, you can directly email questions@iapodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Please feel free to submit questions for Valter Longo, who I will be interviewing. I'll also be interviewing Dave Asprey and I think the other interviews will have happened by now. So, questions for Dave or Valter, send them our way and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. The show notes for today's episode, which will have a transcript and links to everything that we talked about those will be @ifpodcast.com/episode339. Okie Dokie. I think that is all the things. Anything from you Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait for the next one with you. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. I will talk to you soon. 

Vanessa Spina: It sounds good. Talk to you soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Vanessa Spina: Byeee

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Oct 08

Episode 338: (PSMF) Protein Sparing Modified Fast, Fasting For Fat Loss, HGC Injections, Ozempic, Lectins, Inflammation, Chronic Pain, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 338 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get ground beef for life and $20 Off Your First Box!

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DANGER COFFEE: Danger Coffee Is Clean, Mold-Free, Remineralized Coffee Created By Legendary Biohacker Dave Asprey, And Engineered To Fuel Your Dangerous Side! Get 10% Off At melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Ground Beef For Life And $20 Off Your First Box!

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% Off At melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

Listener Q&A: Jakie - What are your thoughts on Protein Sparing Modified fast (PSMF)?

Listener Q&A: Tara - What do you guys think of lectins?

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, histamine, Amine, glutamate, oxalate, salicylate, sulfite, and thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, reactions To Look For, lists of foods high and low in them, the ability to create your own personal lists, And More!

Antinutrients: Lectins, goitrogens, phytates and oxalates, friends or foe?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #104 - Sally Norton (Oxalates)

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 338 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 338 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing fantastic. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have two book comments I would like to share. One, I finally started reading Peter Attia's book Outlive. Have you read it? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't, but my husband's cousin was just here and she just finished reading it and she was saying she really liked it. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really enjoying it. It is very long. I'm reading it right now on Kindle. I actually just ordered it physically, just to see visually how long it is because it's one of those books where I'm really enjoying reading it. I read every night while eating my one-meal-a-day for hours. I'll read it for what feels like a really long time, and then I look down, I like to read and not look at how much progress I've made, and then look down and see how much progress I've made. Do you use Kindle where it's like you've read 1%, 2%, 3%? 

Vanessa Spina: I do and it's hard for me. I much prefer to hold, like, an actual book, and I recently ordered one because I heard that it's really good for reading in bed, which I'm doing a lot more of now that I have Luca. But yeah, I much prefer the physical sensation of holding the book and turning the pages and even the smell of the books I love. But I think the Kindle is interesting as well. And yeah, I guess you have to glance down at the percentage to see where you are. 

Melanie Avalon: I read on my phone and the Kindle app. I do also really love physical books as well though, just to comment on that. But I will read for what seems like half an hour, and then I'll look down it's like hasn't moved. I'll still be like [laughs] 10% and then I'll be like, "Okay, now it's going to be 15%." And then it's still 10%, so I'm actually really surprised the editors didn't cut it down a little bit. But I'm excited because the chapter I started last night is all about the discovery of rapamycin. The chapter of the title is Chapter 5, Eat Less, Live Longer? And then The Science of Hunger and Health.

Vanessa Spina: So, my favorite interviews of all time of Dr. Peter Attia's are the ones that he did on rapamycin, and I have all of them saved and bookmarked. And I think it was last summer, I was going for long walks, and I would listen over and over to them. And there was-- so obviously he had David Sinclair on, but then he had this other scientist I can't remember his name right now, who worked in the same lab as David Sinclair and was also working on some really interesting discoveries. And they were talking about a lot of the differences in the rodent studies between NMN and NAD. And they're some of my favorite episodes, and I just listen to them over and over again. So, it sounds like [chuckles] I really need to read this book.

Melanie Avalon: I think you like it. It feels very personal. He weaves a lot of his personal story and life into it, so it's very narrative driven while also being about the science.

Vanessa Spina: I think you were saying that to me that you were surprised, like, how much of himself he included in the book.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think that was probably when I listened to an interview he did where he was talking about that and he was talking about how he shares, like, a really personal story at the end that I'm excited to get to. But, yeah, he definitely really does. And so how do I interview this man is the question. [laughs] I'm taking so many notes. Someday, Peter, I promise I will not waste your time, I promise. I only need like 30 minutes, I promise. So, I actually have a document in my Evernote app, and it's titled Peter Attia. And every time I hear him say something that makes me think of a question, I want to ask him, I write it in there. So, I have this ongoing list that I've had for months and months and months of things I want to ask him that are very random and very specific, so someday.

Vanessa Spina: One day, you will land it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. The other book, okay, so this is a moment, Vanessa, where my mouth literally dropped open when I read this. And I am not going to say the name of the book or the authors because I don't want to say negative things about them, and I am going to be interviewing them. However, I would like to hear your thoughts about this concept. Are you ready? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: They're having a chapter on mental health and wellness and how it relates to physical health and wellness. And they said that today we live in a society where we think our happiness is in things and we need more things. And we have a scarcity mindset, not a mindset of abundance and how problematic that is, which I am, like, agree with so much, so much. So, they said-- And the next sentence, they said that an analogy of this mindset where we feel like we need to have more things to feel complete and feel whole and feel happy also happens with food because we have a scarcity mindset surrounding protein and that we think we need more protein and everybody's worried about not getting enough protein, but really that's a scarcity mindset and we need to realize we have plenty of protein already. 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Has he or she heard of the nine essential amino acids that the body cannot synthesize?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. I think they think we get that enough, that this protein fear is yeah, that it's like a fear-based scarcity mindset thing.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Yeah, I mean, the protein wars, like the diet wars and stuff, I just find it so yawn, [chuckles] I'm just so over it. Because what's interesting to me is-- obviously my podcast is called Optimal Protein podcast, and I focus on optimal protein intake. For me, that means not too little, not too much, optimal. And I think that the levels of protein that I talk about, that you talk about, that a lot of guests that I have on my show who are protein scientists and actual experts on protein talk about, they appear high in relation to what we have been taught is like the recommended daily amount. But most people don't know that those recommendations are based on outdated wartime rationing. So, wartime rationing is something that's put in place because you're literally in a state of scarcity because you're at war. And so, we're trying to figure out what's the minimum amount that we can get away with getting into our population for them to avoid disease and death. So, we're obviously not in that kind of scenario anymore, at least in most of the world, in Western world, we're not in a dire wartime situation.

So, the fact that we're still treating those minimal recommendations as the actual recommendations that should be considered optimal are the problem. So then when you look at an optimal protein intake, it seems like it's very high compared to that extremely low bar. When we're not actually talking about very high numbers, we're just talking about numbers that are perceived to be high because of that extremely low amount that we're still using for some reason, even though so many scientists have written letters showing, like, this is the research. This is actually how much nitrogen we need to avoid sarcopenic obesity, and it's way higher. But in relation to that low number, it seems like people always think, like, "Oh, this is a high-protein diet," and I have to use the word high-protein sometimes to distinguish it from the low-protein levels. But if everyone was using a better bar as where we should be at, then it wouldn't actually seem high if that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy. It's so interesting how the foundation of these ideas and how hard and long it is to change them, once something becomes ingrained, it just is.

Vanessa Spina: That's so true. And I really think that if you look at the state of our metabolic health, like, as a nation, and I'm considering all of North America, part of that definitely parts of Europe as well, and even Asia now is starting to deal with these metabolic crises. When you have research showing 88% of the population is not metabolically healthy, that's a problem. And I think that a big, big, big part of it is the protein question. It's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it is like because of concepts like protein leverage, which explain why people are overeating because they're suppressing the protein intake that they need, and that once you prioritize protein and you get the protein that your body physiologically needs, then you don't overeat energy calories. And I really think it's a huge part of solving obesity, metabolic syndrome, sarcopenic obesity, epidemic that we're facing, and there's not really enough alarm raised about it. So many people are dealing with the complications and the downstream repercussions of having poor metabolic health, and it's killing a lot of people. And yet we don't really look at it as a crisis. Some of us do, but in general, we kind of minimize food and nutrition and lifestyle, and we also dismiss the connection between nutrition, lifestyle, and our metabolic health and our overall health.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. It's kind of like we're saying last show. I think if everybody wore a CGM for two weeks, [laughter] go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to get $30 off, and focused on protein and ate just like real food, it would revolutionize everything. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: [sigh] Someday, someday. 

Vanessa Spina: That's an interesting book. 

Melanie Avalon: What was fascinating to me was I was, like, nodding my head. I was like, "Yes." Like, mindset of abundance, no scarcity mindset. And then they were like, "Protein." I was like, "Whoa." [laughs] I was not expecting that twist ending. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's really funny sometimes too, when you're reading a book about health and nutrition and suddenly there's all these politics coming into it, and you're like, for me, I'm like, "Why is this in here? Why does it have to permeate everything? Why does everything have to be politicized?" Okay, as an author, you may have certain views, but can we exist in a space that's outside of politics and just talk about certain things without politicizing them? Sometimes that'll just hit you out of left field and you're like, "Whoa," [laughs] that was a comment to drop. It kind of took me back. But yeah, that's really funny and unexpected. 

Melanie Avalon: So that'll be a fun interview. I probably will bring it up. 

Vanessa Spina: Knowing you, you'll challenge them and yeah, bring the questions we all want to hear. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Nicely, though. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, of course. 

Melanie Avalon: Always nicely. Anything new with you before we jump in? 

Vanessa Spina: Anything new? I guess it's like we're kind of winding things down with summer. We just had our family visiting here for two weeks, which is absolutely amazing. All of Luca's little cousins were here, and we just spent two weeks just enjoying really hot weather here, taking all the kids to the pool. And there's this amazing pool here. It's actually on the riverbank and it's like this huge zone for kids and it's all just like these shallow pools with waterfalls and these slides that are waterfalls, and there're fountains everywhere, which are, like, my favorite thing. And I was like, "I feel like I'm in Vegas right now." [laughs] It was just so nice, so relaxing, a huge highlight. And went to so many restaurants while they were here, which is fun because we don't usually do a ton of eating out. Like, maybe we'll eat out once a week, usually, we cook most of our meals at home. So, it's kind of fun though, like, when friends or people are visiting or family and you go and try new places. So, we found this incredible new restaurant, a couple of them, actually, that we had never tried before.

And there're so many amazing restaurants in Prague. But, yeah, we found two that one specialized in duck, which is like a big food here. And it was, like, incredible. It was mind blowing. I actually haven't stopped thinking about it since were there on the weekend and I really want to go back. And then we found this incredible brunch place, which is also near the river, so we had a really good time. Luca had so much fun with all his little cousins. So, yeah, we're kind of winding things down, but just had a really wonderful visit. And we have some upcoming travel, which I'm excited about. We're going back to Greece in a couple weeks, back to our favorite spot there, and it'll be kind of like a babymoon, but with Luca, like our last family trip, the three of us, just the three of us. So, it'll be special. 

Melanie Avalon: A babymoon? Is that a phrase? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, babymoon usually means, like, when you go as a couple on a holiday before your baby comes, because it's your last time to be just the two of you. But this time, it's like the last time to be just the three of us on a holiday together. And as excited as we are to welcome another baby, there's just something also that's been so special and magical about the last two years [unintelligible 00:15:42] just the three of us. So, we just kind of want to celebrate that too. And I love being there at the beach and getting up and going down to the beach with Luca for sunrise, it's like the best, the best. [chuckles] Just like being on the beach with him as the sun is coming up and it's like those moments in life that you just live for. So those are the things I'm excited about. 

Vanessa Spina: What about you? 

Melanie Avalon: I did have a really fun time going to another escape room with my family. Have you done escape rooms?

Vanessa Spina: So, I haven't. Pete took some of our nieces when they were here, and there's like a really funny story [laughs] from it. But yeah, they kind of freaked me out. The thought of them kind of freaked me out. 

Melanie Avalon: The doors aren't actually locked. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, at least where we go, you can just walk out if you want. Kind of like that happened once my mom was not about it and she just left the room. 

Vanessa Spina: [laughter] That sounds like something I would do. I'd be like, "Yeah, no." [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: When she did that there was this one moment where they can see you and there's like a microphone and they can talk to you if they want. And something happened and we felt like were getting a sign from the microphone. And I remember somebody, I think my sister was like, "Oh, it's mom. She's like, watching. She's like, giving us the sign." And were like, "Yeah, she's watching." And then we walked out at the end. She was not watching. She was like, "Not about it." [laughter] I'm going to send you the picture. It's on Instagram. It's hysterical. We're all like, smiling. We're like laughing. And then my mom is like, "Not," that was the Egyptian themed one. I always dress up, so that was Egyptian themed. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that sounds amazing. Actually, I'm obsessed with Egyptian stuffs. That would be amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: So, you and I could have dressed up. I dressed up like Cleopatra. 

Vanessa Spina: That was my Halloween costume one year. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I even bought the wig. But then I was like, "No, I'm just going to be blonde." 

Vanessa Spina: That's awesome. I love Egyptian culture. That's so cool. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. The one we just did was saloon themed. My mom did not attend this time. [laughter] I dressed up like a saloon girl. Everybody sort of had like, hats or something, but my brother didn't. So, he was just "in character the whole time." [Vanessa laughs] And it was like the funniest thing, he was so funny, [laughs] and it was our first time not getting out, which was very sad. I've done like five of them and we did not escape. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, no. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. It's okay though, next time.

Vanessa Spina: That sounds fun though to do with your family.

Melanie Avalon: It was really, I highly recommend escape rooms as an activity for people. And here in Atlanta, at least, there're so many different ones. So, I also highly recommend if you can find one, if you are a fan of drinking. The one we go to, they let us drink, so it just adds even more fun. So yeah, and then I also went to a fashion show, so that was fun.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, that sounds really fun.

Melanie Avalon: I want to go to more fashion shows, I decided. But on that note oh, and I will just do one quick plug. Listeners, get on my email list for my EMF-blocking product line because that should be coming out soon. And that will be at melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist, we're launching with air tubes.

Vanessa Spina: So exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into some questions?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that sounds great.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, to start things off, we have a question from Jackie. She actually has two questions, so let's do her first one first, which is, "What are your thoughts on protein-sparing modified fast, which is PSMF, is it the best diet for fast and healthy weight loss?" 

Vanessa Spina: So, I've talked about protein-sparing modified fast a lot, really focused in on them, interviewed some experts on them on my podcast. And so, this is kind of what I tend to my overall thoughts on them are in terms of looking at the research and sort of comparing them to other approaches. So, in the obesity research, protein-sparing modified fast have been proven to be extremely effective for people, especially who are morbidly obese. They tend to be recommended, actually, for people who are preparing to go into major surgery, like even weight loss surgery, in order to help them lose weight before the surgery. And that's a situation where they're doing a protein-sparing modified fast every single day of the week, and it's for a period of time and they're being monitored by a physician. And the standard approach with it is usually for people to be consuming around 650 to 800 calories, and it's mostly lean protein.

And the benefit of it is that you are really cutting out the energy macros as much as possible, but you're still providing your body with enough protein so that you protect your lean body mass. So, I would say that when you compare it, for example, to a water fast, which some people do for weight loss, for fat loss, a protein-sparing modified fast, in my opinion, is a dominant alternative to water fasting because you're protecting your lean body mass and you could stand to lose some lean body mass and muscle tissue if you're just doing water fasting. I don't like fasting in general, water fasting for fat loss. I like it for autophagy, cellular rejuvenation, immunity reset, doing that, say, one, two, three, four times a year. But I don't like it when I see people doing it for protracted periods of time in order to get down to a certain weight because I think that you do compromise some lean body mass, especially if you're over the age of 40 it's really not recommended because it's much harder to retain and gain lean body mass because your hormone levels start to go down even after the age of 30. 

So, I think it depends what you're comparing it to. Now, what I have seen be effective for people and an approach that I personally like and have done myself and recommended actually to clients that I've worked with, is doing one, two, or three days a week of a protein-sparing modified fast. So, you have like, for example, if you were doing caloric restriction where you're cutting your calories by about 25%, you could do that by cutting 25% of your calories every single day or you could do it by sort of eating healthy like four days out of the week and then three days out of the week or two days out of the week you do a protein-sparing modified fast day. And so, on those days you just eat one or two meals of mostly lean protein. People approach it differently, some people have like a little bit of fat with it, a little bit of carb. I think you're not supposed to go over 30 grams of fat typically and mostly be eating lean protein, but you don't want to go under 30 grams of fat and it's actually hard to do that unless you're doing like just whey protein isolate or something because most proteins have a little bit of fat in them. So, I have seen that be effective for people who are stuck in a stall, especially if they are just wanting to do it for like two to three weeks. 

I wouldn't say it's necessarily like the best diet for fast and healthy weight loss because I personally think that if someone's losing more than two pounds a week, some of that is lean body mass. So, you really want to protect your lean body mass, especially when you're doing fat loss. And that's when high-protein diets really, really shine is whenever you're doing any kind of fat loss or weight loss protocol. And I think that the average person can probably do a couple of days a week with it if they want to break a stall, but don't do it for too long of a time. And if you are in the situation where you're obese or morbidly obese and you want to approach it every single day, I think it's a better alternative to water fasting. But you should be working with a doctor usually who can help supervise or has some experience with protein-sparing modified fasting. What are your thoughts on protein-sparing modified fasting?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have really similar thoughts. And for listeners who aren't familiar, I mean there are quite a few Facebook groups like PSMF Facebook groups and they're like a place. They are a place.

Vanessa Spina: Really? I had no idea. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. There're, like, two really big ones because I was always really fascinated with PSMF for the reasons that Jackie said and things you touched on like this idea of basically being similar to fasting in regards to the potential for the weight loss and the metabolic effects, but also providing enough protein to hopefully at least maintain your muscle. Even though, I know you were talking about there is the potential for muscle loss there, but the Facebook groups that people are in, it's like all these recipes. I mean there's like the recipe rabbit hole of PSMF is a lot. I think Maria Emmerich, even has a book of recipes for PSMF, I believe.

Vanessa Spina: She does. And they also recommend it two to three days a week. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. She does, okay. Although the drama in those groups, it's interesting because there's a few, like I said, a few groups with a lot of people, and they don't like Maria's approach. And I'm not quite sure why? but that's like a whole thing. But in any case, to get to the actual question and my personal thoughts, I do think-- I remember I think Gary Taubes talks about this in one of his books. I think in the newer book that he released. He talks about how they-- I don't want to get it wrong. I think there was like, a situation where they were doing some sort of experiment and they just so happened to use PSMF as they weren't doing it to test PSMF. They were using it as like a control or a comparison or something. The effects they found were incredible as far as, like, weight loss and the maintenance of muscle. I do think as far as the question about fast and healthy, if your goal-- so people like-- and this kind of ties into her next question as well. 

People often want to lose weight really fast. And I see this all the times, and they want to do PSMF or they want to do what her next question about, which is hCG, which actually, maybe I'll go ahead and read her next question because I'll tie it all into this. Because her next question is, "What are your thoughts on hCG? Could it be the fastest, healthiest way to lose weight?" So, people are always looking for this magic bullet to be the fastest, healthiest way to lose weight and they'll try things like these things. I do think they're very effective. So, I actually do think [chuckles] well, hCG I'll talk about, but for PSMF, I do think say you're on a crunch, you have a wedding, you really want to lean out, and you have like, two weeks. PSMF might work for you. And you'll probably see benefits. And studies have shown that because often we're taught or there's this idea that you need to approach weight loss slow and steady. So, you need to just make a tiny change and cut out like a little bit of calories every day and then you'll lose the weight. People get a little bit fatigued by the thought of chronic dieting for a long time, which is why I just love intermittent fasting, which is a whole another option and solution entirely.

There's been really interesting studies that have shown that doing a, "extreme diet" for a short amount of time can actually be very effective because people can stick to it short term and they're motivated and that can be easier for people. And again, it depends on your mindset and how you approach things. But that for some people, can be easier than the longer, slower approach. So, I'm actually all fine with a smart approach that's PSMF inclusive for a short-term goal. It's not meant to be for life. People are in these PSMF groups and they're there for years and it's like I don't think you should-- it's like the purpose of this was not to be here for years. So, all of that to say, I do think it's great because it supports, because it is high protein, it is severely calorie restricted, you will get the weight loss. I don't think it's a long-term solution. And I think for most people, assuming you don't have like a two-week goal for something, I would just jump into intermittent fasting.

And actually, I was just having an email conversation yesterday with somebody who was going to do hCG and she was saying that she was going to do intermittent-- She wanted to do hCG now and she's like on the yo-yo dieting train that she's been on for years. And then she was saying that she's interested in intermittent fasting and she's going to bring that in for maintenance after she loses the weight. And my initial thought is, I just want to say or you could just do intermittent fasting now. That could be the path to weight loss and the path to maintenance. And you don't have to include this really intense thing in the beginning just because I think when people find the fasting window that works for them, that can work so, so well. And then we don't have the issues with the potential muscle loss because you can't get adequate protein. Another option to consider, you could do kind of a hybrid PSMF approach. This is what I would do back when I played around with PSMF, which was I would basically eat PSMF foods, but I wouldn't restrict the calories. It also worked really well. Then I didn't feel restricted at all and I did it in an intermittent fasting pattern. 

So basically, what I did was I would say I'm doing this PSMF for like two weeks. I would do like a one-meal-a-day situation still, but I would only eat PSMF foods. So, it's basically like just lean protein and I wouldn't calorie count. And I found that to be really effective, I got to have tons of protein and then I also still had the severe calorie restriction from it and the protective mechanisms of the fasted period. Because with normal PSMF, you are eating still like two or three meals. So, I think there is something protective to entering into a full-blown fasted state that's a little bit controversial, but those are my thoughts on that. And then with the hCG, I definitely went down that rabbit hole in college. I did the drops. Have you ever done hCG? 

Vanessa Spina: No. I've only heard really bad things about it, like that it really tanks people's metabolism because it's like 500 calories a day. I'm not sure what the macros are like, but I've heard that people really can dig themselves into pretty deep holes metabolically because then the metabolism slows so much that it's really hard to not regain weight after. But that's about all that I know of it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What's interesting about it, so you can't even get it anymore now? It's been I mean, you probably can, but it got cracked down on I think it's banned now, technically. I know there was some change that happened with it. It's human-- what does it stand for? 

Vanessa Spina: I think it's like human gonadotropin. Like it's a hormone that you get when you're pregnant. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, human chorionic gonadotropin hormone and it's produced during pregnancy. And the theory behind it is that it tells your body that it's pregnant. That's like what it's telling the body. So, when you go into this severe calorie restriction mode, the body's, like, must protect the baby and willingly burns fat rather than entering, "starvation mode." That's the theory. I went down the rabbit hole back in the day looking for clinical studies on it and there aren't really, I couldn't barely find anything. I think I found like a few there's not good literature to back it up, is the point. I think what it boils down to, because you said you didn't know the macros. The interesting thing is a lot, it does end up sort of resembling protein-sparing modified fast because the recommendations are basically very similar to that as far as like lean protein. So, I think it works because it's such a severe calorie restriction. I would not put it in the healthy category and I'd be really concerned about it, especially with the effect on people's hormones, like you were saying. 

I think it definitely maybe the hormone is doing something. I think it also has-- even if the hormone is doing something, it probably also has the placebo effect, which can be a real thing. But because you're taking these drops or doing these injections, it has like a physical thing that you're doing with it that really, I think, makes people stick to it more and feel like it's doing something which could be having an effect just from their mind. I do remember when I tried it in college because I was on the fence as to whether those drops were even real or could do anything. But what was interesting was I started taking the drops and it actually changed my cycle. And I was like, "Oh," it came early or something. And I was like, "Oh, maybe I guess there is something hormonal probably going on in here." But yes, I do not [unintelligible 00:33:30] suggest going the hCG route. Any other comments about it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I definitely don't think-- I'd have to look at the macros, it would be interesting if it was really similar to protein-sparing modified fast like it was mostly lean protein. But the injection thing is kind of creepy. [laughs] And I'm sure there are a lot of listeners who've tried it like you do and I don't mean any offense by it. I just mean the concept of it is a little bit strange. I think anytime people are injecting things in their body like people are doing with Ozempic now, it's a little bit scary. There're a lot of physicians out there who think it's great, it's a great tool. And then now they're finding all these people have major issues with their digestion because it basically paralyzes your stomach. So, they found all these people who've been taking these kinds of semaglutide drugs like Ozempic, and there's a couple other names, their stomachs were paralyzed, so they had just all this food in their stomach. 

Melanie Avalon: That's literally my worst fear and I'm not kidding when I say that, that's what I'm in therapy for is like-- [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: When I started reading about some of them, yeah, I was like physically ill from reading what was happening. And of course, it's going to have bad side effects like that. It's not affecting everyone who's taking it, but shortcuts are always going to come at some kind of cost. It's never free. It's like, yeah, you could just stop eating for a year. Like that one guy did, he was morbidly obese. So, most of his weight that was lost was fat because he was like almost 400 pounds. But I think people who take shortcuts will inevitably have to pay in some way. And one of the worst things you can do, I think, is really downregulate or slow down your metabolism because weight loss, people forget, is like two parts. It's like the fat loss period and then the maintenance period. So, successful weight loss is both sides to it, it's like losing it and then keeping it off. So, if you lose it and then you regain it and your body composition is worse because you've lost fat and muscle and now you've just gained fat back, you're better off never even doing that in the first place. So, I'm very wary of things that are like a gimmick. 

So again, no offense to anyone who's done it in the past, I'm not sure what your results were. Most of the people I hear from are unhappy with their results over time from doing it and the after effects on their metabolic rate. So, if you're comparing, for example, protein-sparing modified fast with hCG, I would definitely opt for the first for the protein-sparing modified fast. If it needs to be doctor supervised, like, if you're doing it every day or if you're doing it, like, two, three days a week and then eating at maintenance calories the other days, then you're going to offset that, slowdown in the metabolic rate in a couple of ways because you're going to maintain lean mass and you're also not going to be doing that extreme caloric deficit every single day, which can slow your metabolic rate down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like I said, I love just having not for me right now, but for people if they're doing a daily intermittent fasting lifestyle, already having a few, "PSMF days," where the approach I did, like I said, was I didn't actually count the calories. I just ate PSMF foods that day. So, it's basically a day of just lean protein. And I think that integrated into an otherwise intermittent fasting pattern where you are having more nutrition and the macros, those days of just protein, you can support the muscle, the protein is very thermogenic, and you can drop some weight. I like that approach. That's probably what I would do if I wanted to speed up the weight loss with intermittent fasting. 

Vanessa Spina: I've totally done the exact same thing. And I would just do that lean protein approach but without worrying too much about how much lean protein I'm getting and knowing that having a little bit of salad or greens with it is very low calorie and just mostly keeping the fat to a minimum but not necessarily counting it. The other thing too is you get this 20% to 30% thermogenic effect from the protein. So, it's a huge amount of those calories is actually being burned off. So even if you go above, they say I think certain people advocate, like, no more than 800 calories in the day of lean protein. But if you go above that, there's so much research showing people who eat more protein lose more fat, and it's because you have that amazing thermogenic effect. So, I actually prefer that approach. And it's something that I've done myself when I wanted to cut a little bit of fat without having to count up all the protein grams and really worry too much about it. But just focus on, like, I'm just going to eat lean proteins and avoid fat [chuckles] and have some carbs with it if needed, some low glycemic carbs. Yeah, I've done the exact same thing.

Melanie Avalon: We literally were doing the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Way less stressful than being like, "Did I get over 800 calories?" because it's self-regulating. You'll only be able to eat so much lean protein before you're just like you're done. 

Melanie Avalon: I found that when I would do that in a one-meal-a-day pattern, it worked really well because then you really could eat all this really satiating lean protein in a really big meal and not count the calories. And you probably won't even go that much over 800 anyways, even if you went crazy. If it's literally just the lean protein. And then, like we just said It's very supportive of the metabolism that big, huge protein bolus, so. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, Tara from Facebook asked, "What do you guys think of lectins for yourself and then for others? 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, lectins. So, lectins became quite popular with Dr. Steven Gundry with his book, The Plant Paradox. I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice, I think. Have you had him on your show? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And I remember one of our conversations, I think it was last summer, and we're talking about how we both initially had this impression that he was maybe a little gimmicky, but then we met him and were like, "This person is gem of a human [laughs] and we both really like him." 

Melanie Avalon: He is the definition of-- because he comes off as-- just because of all the-- like, The Plant Paradox, The Longevity Paradox, and don't eat the lectins. And he has a massive press and image and he blew my expectations out of the water. He's very kind, very smart and I had really great conversations with him.

Vanessa Spina: Same.

Melanie Avalon: So, love that. So, he did really popularize this idea of lectins. And so, lectins, they are one of the many types of antinutrients naturally found in plants. They are part of the plant's natural defense mechanism and they preferentially bind to carbohydrates or like carbohydrate-type substrates. Although this is what's interesting, people think they're just some plants, they're in everything. So, animals make lectins, plants make lectins, bacteria make lectins, fungi make lectins. When you eat animal products, you actually are eating lectins, which kind of goes in the face of this idea that lectins are straight up bad. And so, like I said, the way they work is that they bind to this complex carbon, actually they're hydrocarbon complex structures. And the theory is that they and this has been shown in vitro in a lab situation, they can make red blood cells agglutinate, so basically like stick together. And so, there's this idea that when we take in plant lectins that they might be having a negative effect, like clumping up our blood and creating health issues. And then they also are very resistant to digestive enzymes, so they can interact with our intestinal cells and potentially increase gut the permeability. And so that has been shown in vitro. 

So, like putting lectins on intestinal cells can create intestinal permeability. That's been shown. What's interesting about all of this is that most of these studies are just in vitro, like I said, and then a lot of them are animals. There aren't really like a lot of human in vivo. So human studies looking at lectins and finding super intense negative effects. So, some things to keep in mind if you cook your food certain ways, it can dramatically reduce lectins. So, for example, one study found oh, where are they primarily found? So, they are in all plants. They're all in all plants. Oh, you can get-- and I do think they can be a problem for people. And you can get my app Food Sense Guide, which is a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods for 11 different compounds that might be problems for people and it does include lectins. So, you can look up a food. So, for example, Vanessa, pick a food. 

Vanessa Spina: Umm. Like any food, [laughs] red bell peppers. 

Melanie Avalon: So, it is for lectins, it's high. It's like, in the red. And I have a curiosity so, like, for other things, its low FODMAP, low gluten, low thiols, low oxalate, low sulfites, medium for glutamates, medium high for amines and histamine, and then high for lectins and salicylates. It is not AIP friendly, and it is a nightshade. That's what you can learn from my app, Food Sense Guide, which you can get at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide on the Apple Store. 

Vanessa Spina: Such an amazing app. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you. I really loved creating it. And friends, you might want to get it now, like, get it now because I want to update it substantially, like, make it the app I always wanted it to be. And when I do that, I'm probably going to switch it to subscription, but I'm going to do some sort of-- for people who already have it, I'm going to grandfather them in to some extent. So definitely get it now is my point, because it's not very expensive, and it's in the Apple Store, and it's often in the top 10 for Apple food & drinks, which is just crazy to me. And I don't say that to brag, I say that because that just blows my mind. Like, it just blows my mind. 

Vanessa Spina: That is so cool and huge. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Okay. So like right now, for example, it's number 23 in the food & drinks charts. It plays around in the charts, which is precious. It feels like my little baby. So, in any case, back to lectins. So, I clearly do think they can be an issue for people. Oh, and you can learn about the compounds in the app as well. But cooking can substantially reduce lectins. One study found that boiling pulses for 1 hour at 95 degrees Celsius actually reduced the-- so they don't say the lectins, but they say the hemagglutinating activity. So basically, what the lectins are doing between 94% to 100% from boiling, the plant types they're most high in typically are nuts, cereals, and seeds. Another study found that germination and fermentation can reduce lectins and cooking in general. And it makes sense that there's a reason we cook our food. We like to think it's because it makes it taste really good, which it does, but a lot of it has to do with reducing these problematic plant compounds. So, all of that is to say, so as for Dr. Gundry, he says that in his work, because he's a doctor and he's worked with a lot of people, and he really believes that the lectins are the source of a lot of issues for people as far as, like, health conditions, autoimmune conditions, people who can't lose weight. So, he puts people on these. What's interesting is it's kind of positive as like a lectin-free diet. But like I just said, "Lectins are in everything."

The reason, I think his approach, because his approach works for a lot of people, his plant paradox approach. And he does have very easy to read guides to foods to eat and not to eat in his books. And I do recommend that if that's of interest to you. The reason I think it's probably working is because when you go onto his plan, it's sneakily switching you into eating whole foods and cutting out processed foods. And it's also removing a lot of foods that I think are often inflammatory for people. Maybe it's the lectins, but maybe it's other things in those foods. So, I think just naturally, his diet works really well for a lot of people. So, the lectins could be involved. They probably are involved to some extent. I don't know that they are the be all end all reason that his diet works so well for a lot of people. I'll put a link in the show notes to a study that was really good about this.

It's called Antinutrients: Lectins, goitrogens, phytates and oxalates, friends or foe? I love when the clinical journals have like fun titles and it's really recent. It was February 2022 and they talk all about this and their conclusion at the end-- Oh, on top of that, to make things even further confusing. So, some isolated compounds of lectins have actually been studied for their health benefits. So, some lectins might be anticancer. They have potentially antiangiogenic, antimetastatic, and antiproliferative activity both in vitro and in vivo. For cancer, some studies have looked at lectin compounds. This one was from lectin-rich extract from mistletoe, which makes me happy, mistletoe, but they found that it had antitumor properties. They've also looked at isolated compounds for diabetes. They found that some have antidiabetic properties and they've also looked at things for immunomodulatory potential in a good way, and that they potentially can be antimicrobial, antibacterial, antifungal, antiviral. And this is also with isolated lectins. And again, this is more using lectins, kind of like a drug in a way, like kind of a pharmacological approach to lectins. So, the whole thing is very convoluted. 

I think the takeaway is that and I'll just tell you what the conclusion of this article says. They say that it can be observed that foods basically without culinary treatment can cause negative effects on human health. However, they say in the context of a regular diet, when they are consumed in a food matrix and with culinary treatment like germination, fermentation or milling, they are found in reduced concentration or they are found in synergy with other compounds beneficial to health and the food. And so, the negative effects are minimized. So, translation in whole foods cooked form with the other beneficial effects of foods, and especially like fruits and vegetables, maybe it's not that much of an issue. Then they say purified molecules seem to have beneficial effects on some pathological conditions. They say there are issues because a lot of the studies are carried out in animal models and we're not sure how much that applies to humans. They also said that epidemiological studies show promising results, but the design makes it difficult to discern if it's from the actual compounds or if it's from molecules in the entire matrix of the food.

And then lastly, they say there are few human clinical trials that evaluate these effects if future research is required. So basically, takeaway intuitively. If you feel like you have sensitivities to certain foods, honor that, go with that. If you feel like you have a problem with lectins, try a lectin-free diet. I'm totally fine with that. [laughs] That's primary reason I have an app partly for it. I do think, though-- I don't want people to have food fear. And I do think when we cook our food, it can have a profound effect. And I think it's hard to apply the theory of lectins to the context of cooked vegetables and a whole foods diet, that was very long. Vanessa, what are your thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that was amazing, so comprehensive. I really don't have much to add. The only thing that I would say is just like, my personal experience with it is that I try to avoid a lot of foods that have lectins in them, mostly because of the research that I've seen on how they can act as antinutrient and interfere with the absorption of other nutrients. And so, I personally, I think it's ever since I first started carnivore many years ago, I kind of eliminated a lot of superfluous things from my diet. So, I just stuck with like, "Okay, what's the most nutrient dense food for me that often looks like animal protein, high quality protein, a lot of eggs, a lot of berries, low glycemic fruit." That's mostly what I eat and some salad. And I have the occasional, like, veggies that I have are mostly salad. I am very sensitive to nightshades, especially peppers, which is why I asked you about bell peppers. And I had done this experiment many times, and every time I do it, the same thing happens. Every time, I have a lot of cooked bell peppers. Even though they're cooked, actually, it's worse for me when they're cooked for some reason. And I know they're nightshades they're not lectins. So, I know we're talking about two different things. 

Melanie Avalon: It did say they were high in lectins too. 

Vanessa Spina: Ah, okay. Well, anytime I eat peppers, I wake up the next day with extremely sore back. I can feel it from the moment I wake up. And for me, it's really unusual because I don't have any pain in my body on most days. I would say 99% of the time I don't have pain in my body at all. So, when I do wake up with pain, I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, what did I have?" And it actually happened two weeks ago. And I was like, "I cooked all those red and yellow bell peppers, and I grilled them in the oven, and sometimes you just forget." I'm like, "I haven't had bell peppers in a while. Let's have some." Or I'll make things for Pete and Luca and then I end up having some. And I repeated the experiment the night before last and woke up again with so much pain in my back and it's gone within usually 24 hours, thankfully. 

So, I don't know, maybe it's like the nightshades plus lectin, but that's maybe the only lectin food that I have. So, I would say it depends on how sensitive you are as an individual. You can test different things and see, especially if you do an elimination diet like carnivore for a few weeks and then reintroduce foods. It's a great way to figure out what you may be sensitive to. Like, I learned that cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower for the most part bloats me really bad, and then when I cut those foods out, I didn't have to deal with bloating anymore. So, for me, learning that the most nutrient dense foods are more so, like proteins and organ meats and things like low-glycemic berries and those kinds of things. And like cucumber, we eat very similarly too, which is really funny because we both research so much on food. And I think that to me, those things are just unnecessary. But not everyone is like me. And if you like having a lot of foods that have lectins in them, just test different things and see how does it actually make you feel in your body when you go a long period of time or even like two, three weeks without it and then test it. Test one food at a time and see if you notice. Do you notice any pain? Do you notice any inflammation? Do you notice any bloating or any uncomfortable symptoms? And I just think everyone should do an elimination diet at some point and then just reintroduce different foods. And then you learn so much about how your body responds to different foods. It's very similar to wearing a Nutrisense CGM, because you also learn about how your blood sugar responds to food, which is kind of slightly different response to food. I think it's invaluable information. 

And people have bio-individuality and they do have different responses to things. So, you may be able to eat tons of bell peppers, tons of nightshades, tons of lectins, and have no reaction whatsoever. So, in that case, I would just caution against cutting out foods that you don't need to if they have no effect on you. But the final caveat there is that there is research showing that they can act as antinutrients and interfere with the absorption of other foods. There's, like, a really popular one where I think oysters, the lectins, interfered with the absorption of the zinc when they were consumed at the same time. I think one strategy would be to, like, if you're eating a really nutrient dense food, like organ meats or oysters or something like that. Just don't eat them with lectins. Maybe that could help as well. But you answered the question so comprehensively. I'm just, like, throwing in a little bit of personal experience here and sort of what I've personally done, and I'm just not someone who feels the need to have that much variety in my diet. But some people find that limiting, so I completely understand that perspective as well. 

Melanie Avalon: No, that was so wonderful. And it's interesting because now I'm just looking through my app more, and with the nightshades, I have the exact same experience. Like, I don't normally have any pain in my body.

Vanessa Spina: Really. 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. And then on the few times when I've tried something like that, I wake up the next day and it's like, "Whoa." I did an experiment where I tried white potatoes, and I woke up the next day and I felt like I got hit by a bus. I was like, "Oh." And they're a nightshade. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's like eggplant, peppers, potatoes. I love eggplant. It's like [chuckles] maybe my favorite vegetable, but I don't consume it that often. It's one of the foods that I consume a lot when we're in Greece and it doesn't seem to bother me there. And I think it might be one of those things too, with the buckets, like how full your bucket is. For some reason, I'm okay with eggplants. So maybe it is lectins thing, but it's really interesting how you can be more sensitive to certain ones or how amazing is it to notice that? Because what if you just lived your whole life with some kind of pain in your body that you didn't need to have? And I learned that from gluten. I was having pain that was so severe that I would be doubled over, and I cut out gluten, and within two weeks, the pain disappeared completely from my life. So, I could have continued living that way if I hadn't have gotten that knowledge and information about gluten. And the same thing with the back pain. I could just be one of those people who's like, "I just have back pain. My dad had back pain." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. Sorry, I'm like because my mom always has chronic pain. I'm just like, "If she just tried," I mean, maybe not but she always says, "It's genetics, I was born with it." I'm like, "Have you just tried. If you just tried, it might blow your mind."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. You kind of know it's never going to happen also.

Melanie Avalon: For people who have the app, because there're a lot of little treasures in the app, I think people don't quite realize. So, if you go to compound info, then you can look at the compounds and learn about them, and then you can see a list where you click, like, foods high in it. So, like, for example, for nightshades, the nightshades in my app are eggplant, goji berries, tomato juice, paprika, bell, sweet pepper, white potato, and tomato. And then it was funny, I was looking up meat. I was trying to see, like, beef, for example. Literally everything is green except for glutamates, but there's, like, so little that people potentially react to compared to the bell pepper we did where there's a lot. It's definitely very individual. 

Vanessa Spina: And that's last thing I just want to say, that's such a good point that you just brought up. It's the same for foods with oxalates. People who have kidney stones, a lot of times they don't realize it could be connected to oxalates. And my rule of thumb with things like this is don't go out and cut out every single food that has oxalates in it. Just look up the list and cut out the top five. Because with oxalates, if you look at the top five, they have 1000 times more than some of the other ones. So, it's just the same as I know you always talk about with mercury in the fish, there's some fish, I think there's four or five of them especially, that have such high amounts in them that if you just avoid those, you're probably fine consuming all the other fish at a moderate level. Whereas there's definitely foods I know with oxalates that there's some of them that are off the charts high in them. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, spinach is really high. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, exactly. I never eat spinach. And I'm always telling-- there's a couple of people I know who have issues with kidney stones all the time and bladder issues. And I'm like, "You got to look up what oxalates look like under the microscope. They're like these pointy shards, [chuckles] and they bind with calcium and they create kidney stones and other urinary issues." And I'm like, "Just avoid the foods that have the four or five ones that have the most density of them." And I think that's what I did in the past, definitely with oxalates, lectins. Now I want to go back and look at nightshades and compare, because the peppers, if they have nightshades and lectins, maybe it's like a lot more density of those than the other ones. But yeah, just one last point there. It was like, "You don't have to cut out everything. Just cut out the most dense ones and then you'll probably be fine just having the rest in limited amount."

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm so glad you brought that up. And oxalates are in the app as well. I'll send it to you. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't believe I haven't downloaded. I've heard you talk about it before, and I always thought, what an amazing idea for an app, that sounds incredible. So, yeah, I'm definitely going to download it and do some digging, and it'll probably help me understand why it's the peppers and, for example, not the eggplant.

Melanie Avalon: It's super helpful. And that's the feature I do want to add like when I talk about optimizing it, I want to add some AI to it that will help people, people could put in the foods they're eating and then it'll look for the trends. So that's on the to-do list. And just one last quick note. Some people say with carnivore that they think some of the detox or negative effects people might have in the beginning is like dumping oxalates, but they have, like, oxalates built up and then they cut them all out and then they basically start eliminating them and they're coming out of the tissues. And I actually interviewed on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast, Sally Norton, and we did a whole episode on oxalates, which blew my mind. 

Vanessa Spina: Same.

Melanie Avalon: They're scary when you hear what they are, they're like spiky-- They're like spiky little things like shards. They're like shards of glass.

Vanessa Spina: If you look up the photos of what they look like under a microscope, it's crazy, and it completely makes sense. And when you hear Sally Norton talking about it, you're just like, "Oh, my gosh, why is this not more known and accepted?" Because a lot of people deal with things like kidney stones and other issues that are related to it, and it seems like there's definitely research on it. And there's like one case I think she always talks about where this one guy-- 

Melanie Avalon: Died.

Vanessa Spina: --yeah, he died from having like, pea soup or something at a restaurant because it was so high in oxalate. So, again, it's those few foods that are extremely concentrated in them that you want to avoid, but it doesn't mean you should avoid all of them unless you have some kind of condition or health issue where you're extremely sensitive to all of those various compounds. 

Melanie Avalon: Craziness. So again, melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide, just might help you a little bit. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about as well as a full transcript. That will be @ifpodcast.com/episode338 and then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that is all of the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina: Another super fun episode with you. I love your amazing questions. Keep them coming. And we'll keep the episodes [chuckles] coming because we're having a blast. And yeah, I can't wait to record the next one with you. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I just have so much fun. They're like just so fun. All right, well, I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds good. Talk to you next week, Melanie. Bye 

Melanie Avalon: Bye 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Oct 01

Episode 337: Special Guest Rebecca Rudisch, Balanced Dietary Choices For Animals, Pet Nutrition, Whole Food Diets, Preventable Illnesses, Entrepreneurship, Women In Business, Health Journeys, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 337 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

NUTRISENSE: Visit Nutrisense.Com/Ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

rebecca's back story

health challenges

getting into IF

snacking all day

getting the protein in and muscle building

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #165 - Dr. Karen Becker

Creating yummers

pet food nutrition

using real food

the yummers toppers

sourcing and quality

distribution

being a woman in business

work-life balance

working culture

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 337 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 337 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here with a very special guest today. I have been looking forward to this for so, so long. Listeners, okay, so the backstory on today's episode probably it was a while ago, over maybe a year and a half ago, I'm not even sure at this point. A fabulous listener of the show, Rebecca Rudisch, reached out to me via email. Now, I'm just trying to remember the origin story of all of this. I think she reached out about the topic of today's conversation, which is her incredible company, Yummers, which they make gourmet, pet food toppers as well as a new line of dog food. She reached out about just how she was a listener of the show and how she had this company and how she was all into the health of our pets.

I know we talk a lot about health of humans on this show, but very rarely do we dive into what we're actually feeding our pets. Rebecca and I just hit it off right away. She felt like an instant friend that I had known for years. I really do feel like that. And on top of that, she's pretty much one of the most inspiring people I think I've ever met. She is a role model for being a strong, entrepreneur woman who has done so many things. Her resume is just absolutely astounding. So, I knew we had to have her on the show for so many things to talk about. A, talk about how she integrates fasting into her life, how she does biohacking, health, diet, and fitness while being this awesome career-oriented woman, doing her companies, being a female COO.

Also, to talk about Yummers and the tragic situation of feeding our pets conventional pet food today and how Yummers is working to change that. Oh, and by the way, if listeners are fans of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Rebecca actually co-founded that company with Antoni Porowski and JVN from that show, so you guys may be familiar with them. I'm just so excited about this. I have so many things to talk about. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

Rebecca Rudisch: Oh, my gosh, I'm so honored. You were way too kind in that introduction. I have been waiting for this for a long time too and it's really fun to be here. You're right, when you come to the origin story, you're totally right. You happen to be talking about your mom's cats on one of the IF podcast episodes. I immediately, just for whatever reason, knew I had to reach out to you. I will tell you I've never done that with anybody before. So, I think we were destined to be friends, and I'm really really thrilled to be here today. 

Melanie Avalon: I still remember reading your first email and I was so intrigued. I was like, “Who is this woman?” [chuckles] We just immediately became friends. You just understand all the things. I'm not kidding, Rebecca, I literally, when I am talking about you to anybody, I use you as the example. I'm like, “She is the most inspiring woman, I think, that I know personally,” and I am not-- I am not making that up. That is how I introduce you to people. [laughs] So, speaking of, there are so many things I want to talk to you about, but to introduce you to our audience, your personal story, because I know you went through your own health issues and your own things, and there're so many different ways I could phrase this. Have you always wanted to be an entrepreneur, work with different companies that you've worked with? How did your health journey play into that and ultimately what led you to founding Yummers?

Rebecca Rudisch: Yeah, I mean, it's a wild story and I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was younger. And just in terms of my background, I grew up in the Midwest to a very blue-collar family of very hardworking people, and I had no idea what it meant to be an entrepreneur. I worked a lot during high school and college, and I put myself through college and worked in a retail store, and I never dreamed that I would have the kind of life that I have now, and I didn't even know what that meant. But you're right, I did find my way through a lot of different challenges. So, like I said, I grew up in the Midwest, I went to college, I was really lucky and out of undergrad, I got a fabulous job in management consulting, and I happened to work in a retail store when I was putting myself through school, as I said.

I got scooped up into the retail practice with what was then Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, and it really set my career up. I loved it. I loved what I did and had a chance to work on a lot of really interesting things and all of that made me realize that I wanted to run a business. In the retail industry what that means is you go into a merchandising career. I started my career in merchandising with Target, was recruited to go work for Target and my health and wellness and really my CPG and food background really started there. At Target, I ran a bunch of businesses including the snacks and beverages business. I ran electronics and entertainment and my last job there I ran everything that Target calls healthcare which includes over-the-counter products and vitamins and supplements but also pharmacy, optical and clinics. I definitely had a strong interest in health and wellness much before that. But that really set me up to be the person at Target who was a spokesperson for everything health and wellness which was really an honor.

At the same time during my time at Target I was also going through a little bit of a health journey. I don't think I'll ever really know exactly what happened but I just call it my meltdown where I really started to have a lot of struggles with fatigue and a lot of actually numbness and tingling and my limbs and just very strange symptoms. At the end of it all, I was in intense pain. I had horrible back pain to the point of really not even being able to walk around the block and I was like 29 years old. It was awful. I was really fortunate that I started seeking out alternative care and it wasn't for lack of trying the traditional western medicine route, but I think a lot of people on this podcast can probably empathize that sometimes you don't get the answers that you really need through that process.

So, I found a chiropractor and an acupuncturist and I changed my diet and I eliminated gluten and dairy and a whole bunch of other things and I was really lucky that all of that really helped and made a dent. At some point, I got a diagnosis for Lyme disease. I'm not sure if I had it or not, it's really hard to tell, probably at some point I did. But I think all of that to say for the past almost 20 years I've really been able to manage a lot of things with just living better. I'm sure that's why at some point I found the IF Podcast because I'm always looking for ways to make myself healthier and to really boost all of the things in my life that are wellness related. But anyway, it was really interesting that when I was going through all of that I was also the health and wellness person at Target, which it felt in some ways very odd.

The other thing that I really learned in my time in merchandising because I went on from Target and believe it or not, from there the health and wellness person went and ran all of merchandising for 7-Eleven, which was also enlightening. Eventually, I would make my way to Petco, which is why I'm now in the pet industry. But one thing I really learned in my time merchandising at Target and 7-Eleven, because I had responsibility for a lot of food and beverage and healthcare products, is that the standards for processed food manufacturing and for all of the food development really are, I think, somewhat troubling. I know you talk about this a lot on both of your podcasts, but the industry that is creating packaged food today and it's creating packaged products, there's a lot there that is really troubling when you're thinking about the health and wellness of people and particularly people like me, who really need to have clean, real food in order to be healthy.

So, I could go on for hours. But a lot of that has really led me to where I am today. And in terms of getting to the point of today, all of that led me to be the Chief Merchandising Officer at one point at Petco, which I have always been in love with pets, but it was the best job ever because I got to live and breathe and eat and sleep nothing but pets all day long and it was awesome. I think has really solidified the fact that pets are one of the things I'm most passionate about personally and in business.

Melanie Avalon: I love all of this so much. See listeners, now you can see why she's so inspiring. Okay, so many things. I'm curious, when you were having your health challenges and hearing how old you were when you were at Target, that is really putting things in perspective for me, which has done so much. So, when you were having your health challenges, did you start feeling better overnight? Was it a slow journey? Was there a paradigm shift in your head that helped you feel better? Because now you and I always talk offline about how I'm so in awe of your travel skills and you're always killing it and traveling all over the world and doing all these things, which sounds very energetically draining to me. So, did you just wake up one day and feel better or was it a really slow process or what did that look like? 

Rebecca Rudisch: It was so scary. It was truly, truly frightening. When you're 29 years old and you can't walk around the block, even grocery shopping was so challenging, except at least I could push a cart. And to me, at this point, it just seems surreal that that was my life. But I was terrified. At one point, I think the last doctor I went and I had an MRI on my back, and they couldn't really find anything. A doctor who was doing the best that he could, diagnosed me with something called stiff-person syndrome. I have no idea what this is to this day, but he said that the treatment for it would be to be put on massive amounts of muscle relaxers for the rest of my life, which essentially would have-- I wouldn't have even been able to go to work. It would have been awful and I think, Melanie, you know me at this point, and anybody who knows me, the idea of me not being able to work is terrifying because it's what I get so much passion out of and what I really love to do.

I was absolutely terrified. To this day, I don't even remember exactly how I found this person, but I found a chiropractic neurologist, and I was like, in the darkest of the darkest days. I found a chiropractic neurologist who did a full intake and he said, “I do things really differently.” He used some very different techniques that not only adjusted me physically, but also started to rewire my nervous system. By no means was it overnight, but within a couple of weeks, I was not in complete pain, and within a couple of months, I was walking a little bit better and really starting to see some improvement. It has been a journey though. I could never say that it was overnight. I could never say that I don't have any of the same symptoms that last today. But like I said, 20 years later, literally 20 years later, I get better every day.

Thank you for your callout on my travel skills. I don't know that I'm perfect by any means, but I think I feel incredibly lucky every day that I have never had to completely alter my life or hold myself back from anything because of it. I feel incredibly grateful for that and it's because of a lot of work. I would say that I was biohacking before biohacking was a thing or before I knew it was a thing, because it really is about constant adjustments and knowing my body and knowing what I need at any given time. Sometimes, I will just, I won't be able to go out when I'm out traveling or I will just stay home and take a rest because that's what I know my body needs. But for the most part, I'm all in on life and I do everything. So, I feel incredibly incredibly lucky. 

Melanie Avalon: We have so many conversations about the travel, about the rest, the boundaries, and also, you're also a big foodie, so I'm always having you send me pictures of your meals and these crazy places that you go. It's so haunting to hear you say that about the grocery store thing. I had immediate flashbacks. I obviously did not have stiff-person syndrome, that's crazy. I've never heard of that before.

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't even know if it's a thing, to be honest with you, [laughs] but it was terrifying. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it sounds like something they just give a label when they can't explain something too. I remember when I was severely anemic and wasn't aware, and that's when I was at my most fatigued, and I would drive to the grocery store and just sit in the car for 15 to 20 minutes trying to get the energy to walk inside the grocery store. It was so scary. I was like, “Am I dying?” So, it's really nice to know that-- not that we all go through really dark things, but it's really nice to be on the flipside. It just provides so much hope, I think, to me and to other people. So, thank you for sharing that. One last question about all of that. I'm curious, when you were in that state, was your work draining to you? Because you just mentioned how, it would be awful if your work was taken away from you, which is how I feel about everything that I do. So, was it draining for you or was it actually energizing for you or were you hiding behind it? What was that relationship like?

Rebecca Rudisch: It's such a good question. I would say it was what kept me going. It was the one place where I felt like I was still thriving. Honestly, I was thriving probably during this timeframe that I was going through everything. I probably got promoted like six or seven times. I kept having more opportunities to grow and advance in my career and do new things. And like I said, it was the one place where I felt whole and I felt like I was me. I felt what I put in was coming back out with a lot of reward and gosh, Melanie, I don't know what I would have done without it. I think we all read about or know people or just have people in our lives who have debilitating illnesses of some sort which keeps them from working or makes them have to go on disability or something like that. To me, that would have been the most devastating thing. I don't even know how I would have handled it, because I think the outlet that work became was just so important for me and it gave me a why, to continue to kind of push on.

Melanie Avalon: That's the exact same way I felt during everything, [chuckles] because you mentioned how you were trying to find answers and started looking into all these health modalities and diet and fitness. When did you start experimenting with intermittent fasting?

Rebecca Rudisch: Like so many things, I was probably experimenting with intermittent fasting without knowing it was intermittent fasting. I really just realized that and this is a little bit of a shift when I finally left the big corporate retail world that I had been in and started more of an entrepreneurial path. I really found that when I was working in an office all day, it's just like the food is always there. People are always like there's always breakfast, and then there's a lunch, and then there're snacks, and then there's dinner. And particularly when you're the snack and beverage buyer, you are constantly being barraged with samples of everything. Even when I ran healthcare, there were always power bars or not power bars, but like protein bars and everything everywhere. So, I was always in that mode of like, snack, snack, snack, with meals and dinners out and whatever.

I'll be honest, I just never felt that good. When I stopped working in an office all the time, I found that I was just really happy eating twice a day. I usually work out in the morning and it's kind of my thing. So, I like to work out on an empty stomach. So, I would just find that I wouldn't really need to have anything to eat until like 11 or 12 in the afternoon or whatever. Then, I actually had a friend visit me who talked about how she was doing intermittent fasting. I said, “Oh, what is that? And she goes, “Oh, I just don't eat breakfast anymore.” [laughs] I said, “Oh, well, I think I do that too,” but I didn't really know that that's what it was. She started talking about all of the health benefits of it, which really got me intrigued. I think that's when I officially would have called myself an intermittent faster.

Since then, I changed it up a little bit. I think my body's changed a little bit. I have a really intense goal right now of putting on muscle. I just turned 49, I'm on the verge of 50, and the whole muscle loss as you get a little bit older, it's a real real thing. So, now it's all about muscle for me. I find that what I used to do with intermittent fasting of skipping breakfast and doing probably like 16 hours without eating. I probably more often I'm doing like 12 or 13 instead, just because I like to eat like two really big protein meals, but I'm still doing two meals a day and I feel so much better. It's better for my body. I think after all the years of snacking constantly, my body's just relieved to not have to be doing that anymore. So, it's been very natural and I'm glad I have a name for it now. I just thought I was skipping breakfast. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, I just had an epiphany I don't think I've ever had about intermittent fasting. This is a new thought for me. It just occurred to me because people ask all the time about being in social situations or work situations and if people comment on why they're not eating because they're fasting or people feeling like they're fasting and they feel awkward about it or they don't want to decline the food because of the social implications. It just occurred to me that if you're doing it, “by accident” like you were because you just weren't eating because you weren't hungry. Basically, you could be in the exact same situation, but because you haven't put a label on it in your head as I'm fasting, I think you can easily decline things because it's just you're declining because you're not hungry. Compared to if you have the label in your head that you're doing it because you're fasting, even though you could be in the exact same situation or exact same state. Either way, it's like when people add this label in their head, then all of a sudden, they bring in all of this baggage of, “Oh, I have to explain it or I'm not being normal.” Or compared to, if you're just not hungry, you just say you're not hungry. I just never thought about that before.

Rebecca Rudisch: I agree. And it's so funny that you say that, because my mom, when I was growing up, I don't think I've ever seen, well, now I have, but I don't think when I was a kid, I ever saw my mom eat breakfast. She had coffee every day and she was like, “Coffee is my breakfast. That's all I want.” She had the metabolism of a hummingbird, and she just always had energy, and nobody ever bugged her about it. It was never a thing. But she was an intermittent faster too. She had black coffee every day for breakfast and now there's this whole thing around it. But it was just normal for her.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting. Yeah. I never put that together in my head. Also, really random, do you know the mind-blowing fact about the hummingbird?

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't think I do. 

Melanie Avalon: Did you know-- I learned this when I interviewed Dr. Rick Johnson, who I just simply adore? He talks about the hummingbird in his book Nature Wants Us to Be Fat. So, the hummingbird, it becomes diabetic every night. At some point in its circadian rhythm, it drinks all this nectar and it literally becomes diabetic. Like, if you looked at its blood profile, does so much activity with its metabolism that it undoes all that damage, and then it rinses and repeats. Isn't that crazy? Because you mentioned, the metabolism of a hummingbird. [laughs] But in any case, okay, so when you did put a label on intermittent fasting in your head, when you realized that's what you're doing, did you experience issues with work and social situations of feeling like you wanted to decline the eating situations but feeling awkward about it socially?

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't think so. It’s always been my own person as it relates to that, and I don't really think about it that way. I guess now, as an entrepreneur, for the most part we all work remotely. So, I'm not in an office every day, which definitely makes a big difference because you're not constantly in that kind of situation. My team knows sometimes I have breakfast, sometimes I have lunch, I always have dinner. I think we're all pretty accepting of where we're at from a health standpoint and that's a great place to be, but I do know it can be really challenging. I think back to all of my years in an office setting where I was eating three meals plus snacks a day. I think there probably can be a little bit more of a stigma of always needing to be in some kind of feeding situation. 

But I do think there's starting to be a little bit more awareness around the fact that that isn't as healthy as what people thought it was for a long time again. Like I'll come back to I ran the snack department. We were all about people thinking they needed to eat all the time. We were probably responsible [laughs] for a lot of it. Certainly, all the research from the big CPG companies is there to propagate people's belief that they're going to better off if they just continue to graze all day long. To me, even though I was in that business and in that mode, it never felt good. I certainly did it, but I never felt great as I did it, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it does, completely. And on the protein front, it's awesome to hear about your focus on muscle and protein. We talk about that so much on this show. A question, we get from listeners all the time is they can't grasp how to fit in extra protein into a shortened eating window. I know you said that you elongated your eating window a bit to accommodate the protein. So, how do you fit in all the protein?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, what I found that is working really really well is I eat two big meals a day. And that's why I stretch them out so much, because I'm just not hungry in the middle. But two big meals a day and a really good chunk of protein in both. I've found that my body just responds better to animal protein than it does to plant protein. But I used to do a lot of plant protein too, but I'll just really eat like 40, 50 g a meal and it's working for me. I'm on all the bio-hacks as well and really intense exercise routine that's really helping as well. But I just think for me it's just really been about two really good solid meals instead of multiple times a day. Some people do well with three or more, but for me it's just great to have two really good sizable meals.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I love it. And for listeners, I think, okay, when you and I first started talking about EMSculpt, you had already done it or did you start doing it after I was doing it? 

Rebecca Rudisch: I think we started doing it right around the same time I do EMSculpt and I think that's really helped in some cases. Also, I'm a huge huge believer of the CAROL Bike, so just like small bursts of cardio training. So, you and I also share that. The other thing that it's been a game changer for me is the ARX, which is robotic resistance training. So, basically, you're stronger on your eccentric motion than on your concentric motion, so it pushes back on you on the eccentric so that you get twice as much muscle building. So, I am all into anything that can make all of this not easier, [chuckles] but at least more effective.

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm all about it. Maximum gain, minimum pain, minimum time invested. Sounds like the ARX is like the resistant muscle building equivalent of CAROL and that CAROL is using AI resistance to give you the perfect REHIT workout. 

Rebecca Rudisch: Exactly, right? Yes, exactly. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, so historically, you were working in these retail companies. What made you make the decision to leave that career path and go true entrepreneur spirit, which I think can be really scary for a lot of people and founding an entire company, what was that experience like?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, I can't say that I jumped all in and just was able to do it overnight by any stretch. After I left Petco, like I said, I had been in charge of all of merchandising there. I thought about doing something entrepreneurial and I think I've always wanted to really do something that has an opportunity to change people's lives and make them better. When I was in snacks and beverages or health and wellness at Target, just so often, I had this amazing opportunity to sit across the table from some of the coolest brands and the brands that have made the biggest difference on people's lives in the past couple of decades. Whether it was method cleaning or OLLY Vitamins or Cliff Bar or other brands that were just there to make people's lives just a little bit better, to use ingredients that were cleaner, to use less sugar, less chemicals for your home or any of those things.

It was so inspirational to me to sit across from those founders when they were coming into Target and hear them tell their story, hear them talk about their why and their purpose. The thing that I loved more than anything else about the jobs that I had was being able to help those small companies who were making the world better succeed. So many times, I thought to myself, maybe someday I'll be able to be in that same position, and maybe someday the idea will come to me and I'll be able to make that leap. Then I would chicken out and I would just keep going on my path as a retail executive. I'm so fortunate that I did because finally I had a moment where because of everything that I had done, I had somebody knock on my door and this was a person who really helped me make the connection for Yummers.

While it was an opportunity to be a founder and to start a new company, it was really because somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Your experience is exactly what we need to do something in pet, will you come and join us?” So, I would say, I admire people who can just do it on their own. I am the person who needs to have other people around me. I am inspired by ideation and brainstorming with other people. I like to collaborate. I think best where I have an opportunity to have a sounding board or a partner. And the way that this all worked was perfect. But I've always had a fire in my belly to do something more entrepreneurial, and I feel incredibly grateful that I'm finally here.

Melanie Avalon: So, somebody came to you with the idea for Yummers specifically or was just like the idea of something like that?

Rebecca Rudisch: Yeah. So, Yummers actually came out of an incubator called Caravan, which is basically, we are a part of/venture of Creative Artists Talent Agency, which is why I had a chance to meet Jonathan and Antoni. So, Caravan had identified pet as an area that they wanted to go into. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do in pet. They didn't really know much about pet, but the pet industry is amazing for so many reasons and they thought so too. So, when they said, “We really want to do something in the pet business do you have any ideas?” I said, “Well, yes, I do.” [chuckles] So, that's exactly where Yummers was born, was through some of those ideas and the opportunity to join forces with JVN and Antoni as well.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. So many questions about this. And for listeners, they probably caught this, but Creative Artists Agency is CAA, which we hear that terminology more often, which is the biggest, it's at the top three for the biggest agencies in the entertainment sphere. So, very cool. Okay, so when you sat down, not really, but sat down to brainstorm and create what would ultimately become Yummers, what were your thoughts and what are your thoughts on the conventional pet food industry the way it is now, and what were you looking to achieve with Yummers?

Rebecca Rudisch: What happened with Yummers or where Yummers came from was really that desire to bring better to pets. There were a couple of areas that I was really fascinated by as I really started digging in and determining what exactly our product offering would be. There're really two things, first, the conventional pet food industry in terms of the quality of the product, basically it's a corollary to the human snack food business in so many different ways. Even, when I've toured some of the facilities and seen the production, you basically take ingredients which are certain ingredients, some of them are great, some of them aren't so great, and put them into an extruder. And out comes basically pellets of food that have been stripped of a lot of nutrition and almost all of the flavor and then their [unintelligible [00:33:34] are put back on top of it. Vitamins and minerals are kind of readded to the food so that it has complete and balanced nutrition and reminds me a lot of cereal.

Back in the food days, extruders are how you make Cheerios. So, it's the exact same thing. You take ingredients, you put them through a huge heat process and out comes something that really is not as nutritious. And with pet food, the vast majority of people feed kibble as a pet food. And the nutrition as we just talked about is not all that great. I can say that with my own opinion. But also, it doesn't make the pet that happy, it doesn't make the human that happy. And so much of life and a relationship with your friends is really around food and creating great moments over a great meal. And yet so many people see their pet, their dog or their cat as their best friend and they're just pouring this brown kibble into a bowl every day and putting it on the ground and saying "chow down buddy." 

We really started to see that people weren't satisfied feeding that way anymore. So, the initial line of products that we launched with Yummers was this incredibly nutritious and we can talk about the way that they were prepared in a minute, but this incredibly nutritious and absolutely delicious range of products that were meant to be mix ins and toppers for either dog food or cat food. And some of them are just tasty, gourmet proteins and mixtures that just make the food taste better and give the human being the opportunity to make the meal a little bit more interesting. And then the other part of our assortment is really products that are, we call them supplements or functional. So, they are oriented around conditions that might be common for pets like hip and joint issues, or skin and coat issues, or digestive issues. We have supplements that you just put a little bit on top of the food and you can provide therapeutic doses of ingredients that help with those conditions every day during mealtime.

So, that's really where we started. And the core of our belief was around the way that the product was prepared. We call our products perfectly prepared because we prepare every one of our ingredients for the optimal bioavailability or nutrient availability for the body as well as they have to be incredibly tasty. Our name is Yummers, so they better be good. So, all of our products test off the charts for both nutrition as well as just being really tasty for the pet.

Melanie Avalon: This is so amazing. For listeners, I highly recommend checking out. I did an interview with Dr. Karen Becker for her book The Forever Dog. Honestly, reading that book was one of the most eye-opening things I've ever read. I've read a lot of books. I don't even have a dog. I learned so much in that book. Point being though, so much of what you said right now, I was just again getting flashbacks because she talks about how house pets, our cats and our dogs are really the only animal species on the planet that is eating processed food, a lot of them eating processed food every single meal for their entire lives. I mean, I guess some humans might as well. It's just shocking. It's not surprising to me at all that so many health conditions, mental health conditions, different diseases that we see in humans, we now see in our pets and I really believe it's really going back to the food situation.

Rebecca Rudisch: I think the food makes such a huge difference. I'll talk about Yummers food and what we've done, but I love the human grade fresh and frozen food that's available now and some of the companies out there that have done such a good job of bringing that product and making it available to pet parents. But what I also know is that today over 50% of pet parents, actually closer to 80% of pet parents are feeding processed kibble two or three times a day as the sole source of nutrition. And Melanie, just as you said, and part of that is because it's convenient, part of it is because it's more affordable. It's what they're used to. They don't want know take the fresh stuff out of the freezer and thaw it and have it in the refrigerator. I think that's the reality. So, with Yummers, we've really of struck the middle ground of having a product that is incredibly nutritious and prepared in the way that the ingredients can best absorbed for the pet.

At the same time, it is dry and it can be stored in the cupboard and it does have a little bit longer shelf life because of the fact that it's just freeze dried, it's just air dried and just like any other freeze-dried food that you eat as a human, it does last longer. So, it provides the same convenience, but it is so much better for the pet than feeding the standard processed kibble. 

Melanie Avalon: Because I remember at one point, I was thinking of possibly working on a pet food line and I was diving deep into the rabbit hole because there are so many potential options that you can go as far as what type of pet food to make. It was so much of what you just said that it can be really intimidating for people, not cost-effective time wise, difficult to go on a completely Whole Foods raw diet or something like that with their pet. There needs to be something that's really accessible to people. I think what you're doing is so incredible for that. I can speak to the pets loving it. My sister has a cat, Jackie. My mom has her dog, Mia. And Rebecca was so kind and sent us over so many things and I gave it to them. I kept getting texts over and over about how obsessed they were with the food. And my sister kept asking for more saying how much Jackie was obsessed with it. And then yesterday, I sent Rebecca this. I texted this to her. But our assistant Sharon on the show sent me a video of her dog Tilly, of her putting Yummers into her dog Tilly's food and Tilly is, she's a bulldog and she's freaking out and just so excited about it leading up to eating it. I asked Sharon, I was like, “Does she always act that way around food?” She's like, “No, she's never done this before until Yummers.” So, they love it. They love it. 

Rebecca Rudisch: You made my day when you sent that video. It always makes my day. But Melanie, I will tell you, she is not alone. My dog loves his food. He's really never turned down a good bowl of food, but he loves his Yummers. It seems to be the case for everybody. I just find it absolutely fascinating because I know how this stuff is made. I have seen every aspect of the production and it's just chicken that's freeze dried or beef that's freeze dried. It's just sweet potatoes that are air dried. It's just an ancient grain that is cooked for bioavailability. It's just real food. And to see my dog, to see Tilly, to see every other dog that I see go so crazy over it, actually tells me something about what I have been feeding him his whole life so far. Because this is just real food, it's just awesome real food and for him to get this excited about it, I think it's because instinctively, they know it's good for them, and they know that it's what their body needs. So, I love seeing it. I feel good every day. We get testimonials every once in a while, that just bring tears to my eyes about pets who might have cancer or who really struggle with their appetite. You give them some Yummers and they polish off the bowl, and that makes me really happy because I really do believe that we're solving for something that's really really powerful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so true. I hadn't thought about it in that aspect, but just it's such simple ingredients and they're just loving it so much, which does tell a lot about probably the current nutritional state of the conventional processed food. How did you decide which ingredients to include?

Rebecca Rudisch: A lot of testing. Again, I come back to the fact that our goal is to be the most nutritious and also the most tasty. So, we compromised on nothing. We knew that we wanted a variety of proteins because I think probably some of the listeners will empathize different pets have different allergies or sensitivities to different proteins. So, we wanted to have a good variety of proteins for customers to choose from. We also wanted to make sure that the ingredients that we chose were the best ingredients and the most nutritious. So, for example, I said, we have real chunks of chicken breast in our food because the protein is very bioavailable for pets or with other formulas, we have real salmon or real beef liver. Again, because of the nutrient bioavailability for the pet.

We chose ancient grains because there's more fiber than traditional, like brown rice or rice that would be used in a pet food or grain-free pet foods, which were, I think, trendy for a while. But people have started to realize that having some grains that are made bioavailable is a really good thing for a lot of pets. We chose sweet potatoes and a few other things just because pets really love them and they're incredibly nutritious. I'll tell a funny story. At one point, we did some experimentation of a formula with green beans, which would have been a good addition and certainly provided a little bit of variety. But we learned that a lot of pets don't like green beans very much because they would eat every nugget of the food and they would leave the green beans behind.

So, basically my mantra became only empty bowls were acceptable. So, nothing that is in the food has any reject factor with the pets. And that has been a little bit of our mantra. So, the food is amazing. If your listeners would indulge me and go take a look at yummerspets.com. You can see it looks different. It does not look like the kibble that they're used to feeding. It looks different because it is. You can really see each of the ingredients and how they all come together in the bowl. So, it's really great product. I really hope all of your listeners who have pets will try it. We're offering them the opportunity to do that for free, so we're really excited for that as well.

Melanie Avalon: So, if listeners go to yummerspets.com/ifpodcast you can actually try the new dog food line, a trial version of it, completely for free. Is it three flavors that you have? 

Rebecca Rudisch: Three flavors, yes. 

Melanie Avalon: So, you get to pick your favorite, get that completely free. You'll only pay shipping, which is so so awesome. Then also sitewide you can get 20% off with the coupon code IFPODCAST20, so IFPODCAST20, so thank you so much, Rebecca, for that, really really appreciate that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Thank you. I really hope we would love if every pet in America were to be able to have Yummers in their bowl. So, we want to do anything we can to make that happen. 

Melanie Avalon: I love it. And listeners, feel free to send us videos or feedback about how much your pets love it because it's so wonderful to see. Comment on the grains, because I looked up the grains that you use and is it sorghum, millet, and brown rice?

Rebecca Rudisch: Exactly right. 

Melanie Avalon: Those are all gluten-free grains. 

Rebecca Rudisch: All gluten free, they are gluten free. They're all source of the highest quality and they're all very intentional in terms of the nutrient profile. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you find-- Was it difference formulating the dog food versus the pet food and the toppers or was it a pretty similar process?

Rebecca Rudisch: No, it's totally different. I always say and this probably is analogy that only works for a nerd like me. But developing the toppers was like developing snacks where there weren't a lot of rules and you could experiment with a lot of different things with the exception of the supplement toppers, because those we wanted to make sure to have a real efficacious dose. But like one of our toppers, for example, is just shredded cheese and it's one of our top sellers because people really love how human it is and you can just sprinkle a little bit on the food and that was just a creative idea that we had. We have some really great stuff coming. So, I really encourage people to take a look at what we have coming. At the end of the year, we have another really great supplement topper coming and we're going to keep developing more.

But a lot of that is just fun stuff that we can do and there doesn't need to be as much rigor around the complete and balanced nutrition. When you develop a dog or a cat food, the standards in terms of being complete and balanced are very rigorous. I've always said, I think in many ways developing pet food is harder than developing a lot of human food because there is a very clear standard in terms of the nutrition and the balance of macros as well as the balance of vitamins and minerals and other things. The pet industry in some ways is way behind people and in some ways there's even more standards. So, we were very careful in the development of the food to make sure that it is complete and balanced, that it is incredibly healthy for pets. It fits all breeds and life stages and doing that, it's a lot of work to get the formulations right. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm just thinking about how speaking of the simple ingredients, I remember when you first sent me the toppers because it was right before I was going to Austin for an event. I was looking at the ingredients and I was like, “Oh. I was like, I could eat this. I was like, “Maybe I should pack [laughs] this in my suitcase and then I'll have something to eat” because it was literally just like chicken. I remember I texted you about that. You're like, “I can't officially recommend that.” [laughs]

Rebecca Rudisch: There's nothing that would tell you that you couldn't, but I'm not going to recommend it and I wouldn't recommend it to any of your listeners. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that I share, but I have to constantly tell Antoni that he really shouldn't be putting the cheese on a salad, even though he's talked often about how he loves to put the cheese on the salad. I cannot endorse that behavior. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that I shared that because that is his favorite item.

Melanie Avalon: That’s so funny that's. Especially in the beginning when they were posting on Instagram and a lot, did you have to have some talks about what you could and could not post with that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Particularly, as it relates to them eating the food? Yes. Not that it wouldn't be a good thing, but no, we cannot endorse that. That is not. Again, in fact, what I can also say is that our supplier for one of the products actually ate only his food for a month and actually has some video recordings of it. And again, we can't endorse that. But it's really good food. The quality is impeccable. But no, I wouldn't suggest that any of your listeners start eating it for lunch.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. What are some of the practices like with the proteins as far as the sourcing and the raising practices of those animals?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, we just have really high standards and it's just real human food. So, the chicken is just chicken breast, beef liver is just beef liver. We source from very high-quality sources and all in the USA, with the exception of we have lamb that's from New Zealand. So, we go for the best of the best in terms of sourcing location. We believe that it's just important that the ingredients are the best ingredients that you can put into the food because I think that's why it's so delicious and certainly why the nutritional value is much higher than what you would find in conventional food.

Melanie Avalon: I love it, love it. I'm curious what has been the response because you do have the line in Petco. What has it been like selling it in Petco versus direct to consumer online?

Rebecca Rudisch: It's really interesting. We sell it at Petco. We also sell for your California listeners. We sell at an awesome retailer called Pet Food Express. And then we do sell on direct to consumer. I think we just attract different customers in every location and we see it with the products that we sell. So, at Petco, we have a much higher percentage of our sales coming from cat customers than we do in our direct to consumer, I think, we just have a lot more dog customers coming direct to consumer. Our direct-to-consumer customers tend to like to buy more of the supplements and similarly with Pet Food Express, we just see a lot more of trading into the supplement SKUs. We also see that a lot of people on our own website like to buy multiples. So, they'll like maybe a beef liver and a digestive and a skin and coat or something like that. We've created some bundles around some of those more common combinations as well. But I just think we're attracting different customers with all of the different points of distribution, which is great, because it just means that we're able to reach more customers and they can use Yummers for either along with food that they've already been feeding or now they can try our food. 

Melanie Avalon: You said there are a lot of great things coming in the pipeline, so how do you feel-- Because I know for me, once I created my first supplement line with AvalonX and I created the Serrapeptase, it was just like it lit this fire in me. I was like, “Now I just want to create all the things.” So, what has been your experience now with having this power and agency to create products? Do you want to make a million more different things with Yummers or how do you feel about all of it? 

Rebecca Rudisch: Absolutely, yes, I know exactly what you mean that fire in your belly that just lights you up and you just get so many ideas and you're inspired from so many different things. I've always been that way. I have been a product junkie for my entire life. I'm always looking for white space in different categories. I think part of it because I've run so many businesses in my career. My mind is always going on like, what's next? What's better? What doesn't exist yet? What are trends in the marketplace whether it's ingredients or whatever? So, yes, I'm completely inspired to create a lot more Yummers products. My team's mission is truly, as I said earlier, but our mission is to have Yummers in every bowl.

That doesn't mean that every single person who tries Yummers has to change to our food. We have a great food. I'm thrilled with it. I hope everybody in the US wants to feed it, but if they don't, if they like what they're feeding now or their vet recommends something, we get it. That means that people have something that they like, they might not want to switch, but they can always add a topper or a mix in, and they can always make their meal just a little bit better. So, I start to think about what people might want to do to make the usual meal an extra special dinner. My mind goes crazy. So yes, there're lots of really fun stuff coming. I've always been inspired by things that are really relevant for humans. So, things like superfoods and some of the superfood ingredients I'm totally into right now. I'll just give a little peek under the tent.

I'm totally into the benefit of mushrooms for human health and so many of the things that humans find value in terms of turkey tail mushrooms or lion's mane or chaga, all of those benefits that humans are getting out of those products translate to pet or antioxidants or probiotics, things like that. So, we're developing some really cool stuff that will come out at the end of the year and we're going to keep going from there, new and innovative things to add to the bowl. 

Melanie Avalon: It reminds me as well you're talking about how these compounds and these foods that apply to humans apply to pets. I keep mentioning that The Forever Dog book, but really, listeners, I recommend reading it. That was the big takeaway I took from that book, was just how similar all of these practices that we do for ourselves as humans apply to our pets equally. It’s really, honestly pretty mind blowing. Also, something I thought of with you talking about animals with sensitivities and things like that. I learned a lot about prescription pet food, and I won't even go into it in granular detail. But that's something else she talks about in that book. That really blew my mind because I always thought prescription pet food was from a doctor. I thought it was actually really medical, but I don't want to get controversial. But it's not really, it's still a product of the pet food industry, which is shocking. Oh, you mentioned earlier how you reached out because you heard me share my story on the podcast. Was it me talking about how my cat Misty had died from diabetes? Was that what it was about? 

Rebecca Rudisch: It might have. I vividly remember you talking about-- I think you had just started to dive deep into The Forever Dog when we met. I think you were just starting to recognize how challenging the pet food industry is. I think, yes, I think it was your cat and diabetes but I don't remember exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Because my cat Misty, who I adored, I actually have a story about that, but I'll circle back to it. Yeah so, she died of diabetes. I remember my mom made this comment. She was like, “Oh, well, all cats die from diabetes if they live long enough.” My mom has a tendency to make very exaggerated claims. So, I was like, “That's not true.” And then I went and googled it and yeah, basically I was looking up on PubMed, like cat mortality studies and basically if the modern house cat lives long enough, it usually dies from diabetes. And that blew my mind and that's when I was like, “Okay, there is something very wrong here in the conventional pet food system, very, very wrong."

Rebecca Rudisch: It's so true because we all know how preventable diabetes is for humans. 

Melanie Avalon: Diabetes or kidney disease? I think it's kidney disease. I might need to resay that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Probably a combination of both and actually a little bit of a tangent, but we have a phenomenal vet on our team. She's absolutely incredible. I learn from her every day. And we happened to be at dinner just a couple of weeks ago and she was talking about one of the causes of kidney issues and bladder issues for cats is actually that they get really nervous and so their bladders or whatever, I don't know, if I can describe it the right way, and I don't want to paraphrase her because she's so brilliant, but it's their bladder spasm. If they were calmer and potentially had more even some calming supplements, that a lot of the bladder issues that cats had would not be prevalent. I was fascinated by that. So, I'm absolutely fortunate to have her on our team because she has really true insight into the why physically certain conditions happen with pets. I'm really optimistic that we're going to be able to do some great things and bring some really great solutions to the market too.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because I think it was chronic kidney disease, but Misty did have diabetes, and like you said, I think it all goes together, and it's not something that like that doesn't happen in cats in the wild. So, there's something going on here. Well, okay. I have so many more things I could talk to you about, maybe to bring everything full circle because we opened this up in the beginning, talking more about you and your personal story. This is a tangent question, but what has been your experience as specifically a female in business? Again, I mentioned at the beginning how I'm just so inspired by you and everything that you've done. Have you had any experience of that being a hurdle in your journey or even in your favor? What is it like being a woman in business? 

Rebecca Rudisch: I feel like I've been really lucky, but I also do look back and I think the world has evolved a lot since I started my career, and I definitely feel like there have been a lot of challenges and some opportunities too. I would say probably a mix of both. I definitely think that and I coach a lot of women as leaders and one of the things that I get the most energy out of in the world is building teams and specifically building up and helping women leaders along the way. I think the idea of the impostor syndrome is real. It's a real thing. I absolutely would say that I, at various points in time in my career, have had it. So, I think there's some aspect of being a woman and business that we might even get in our own way a little bit.

I take full ownership of the fact that there have been some situations where I have felt intimidated or I have felt like there have been challenges that I've been up against. I won't tell the full story, but some of the behavior of people on my team when I was really early in my career, it wouldn't be condoned today, let's just put it that way. But that was real. The guys had one set of rules and a social situation, and the women didn't or had a different set of rules, so to speak. I felt like in my career I've been able to overcome a lot and I've had a lot of really great opportunities. I moved fast. I had great opportunities for promotion and leadership. There were a couple of times when I did feel like there was more of boy’s club going on and I think a lot of that was pretty real. 

I worked in companies that were pretty male dominated in many cases and I definitely felt that. I think probably the time that I felt the most like it was difficult to be a woman was really when I was fundraising for Yummers. It wasn't easy. I think, in the industry, there's just a lot of understanding that it is harder as a woman trying to raise money for a company. I don't really know what it is, but there still seems to be a little bit of a ceiling there. I was incredibly successful and I'm eternally grateful for it, but it was hard, and I definitely felt a little bit of that. At the same time, I do think that the world is changing quickly. I'm on a board that I know I was recruited onto because they wanted a woman and because it was founded by a very inspiring young woman.

One of her stipulations is that there would be a certain representation of women on the board. I feel pretty lucky about that because I was recruited and my gender certainly was a piece of the reason that I got the role. So, I think there's a lot happening that is really, I think, good. I would just give a lot of advice to anybody who is in the business world today. Taking advantage of every opportunity you have. I think probably the biggest piece of advice I would have is, if you have any of the impostor syndrome happening, get over it and find a way to get over it. One of the things that I like doing more than anything is helping others get past it because it's real. I would say it's not only women, but definitely I think women tend to have a lot of it just inherently.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I can speak to that to listeners that Rebecca is being completely authentic in everything that she said, because there've been so many times, I've connected you to fellow women that I know that you've wanted to connect with. I remember I didn't tell you this, but one of the women that I connected you to, I think you did a call with her or something, and then I talked to my friend afterwards, and she's like, “Rebecca is so nice. She's so incredible. She's so amazing.” She was like, “But I don't know what she wants from me, because she just says she wants to just help.” I was like, “She does,” [laughs] that's who she is. So, yeah. It's really wonderful to see you supporting fellow women and inspiring others and I know I personally appreciate it so, so much. One last question, how do you work on your work-life balance with your health now?

Rebecca Rudisch: I call it work-life integration. I don't know that I've ever had work-life balance. I'm just going to call it integration because if I'm being honest about it, I think that's probably more what it is. I would say in the last 10 years or so in my career, I feel very lucky that I have been able to really integrate my work and my life and I had the wonderful opportunity to remarry. I am with the love of my life now, who is so incredibly supportive of me and also really wants to participate and wants to be a part of what I'm doing at work and so I think one great blessing I have is I'm going to New York next week and my husband's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll come with you.” So, he's going to come. I'll be working most of the time that I'm there, but we'll hang out a little bit when I'm not working and probably go have a good foodie dinner and I'll send you pictures Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Rebecca Rudisch: You know, but I think that's a big piece and I've really started to be good about setting boundaries, and I don't think I was always good about this before, but talk about self-care or bio-hacks or whatever else I do, they are mandatory, and that is how I keep my energy up, that's how I eliminate stress. They're absolutely set in stone and I will not compromise them. It doesn't mean that I get to do red light every day. It doesn't mean that I get to go do the CAROL Bike every day. But I definitely schedule time for those things. Not as much as you, Melanie. You are my inspiration as it relates to blocking off your calendar for self-care. I will someday be that good. But I do know how important it is for me as a leader to have the energy that I need to be a leader.

Those are things that are just they're nonnegotiable. So, I think to summarize, I would say set boundaries. I schedule in the time that I need for myself whether it's exercise or self-care or whatever. I bring my husband and my friends into the work that I do and I'm really lucky to do that. I've recognized that it's always a journey and I have to stay flexible and I also have to make sure that others are flexible. The other thing I would say is that I'm really proud of this. I'm so proud of this. Yummers is the first time that I've had the ability to create a company culture from the ground up. I've worked for big companies before, the culture is what it is and you can have a tiny impact, but you can't really change Target. I loved it, I loved it there, but it was Target and I get to create the culture for Yummers. It's really important to me that wellness is at the core of our culture.

So, you talk about work-life balance and you talk about wellness. One of the things that we do as a team is, if we have a meeting that's over like 2 hours long, like if we have a monthly meeting or something, we do a walking break. So, we all go off video and we take our phones and we go for a walk and we walk and talk about something that doesn't require a presentation. Or when we have our team off sites, we have them at my house because we're a tiny little team. But when we have our team off sites, we build in time for a walk every day after lunch, we build in wellness time. I instituted a wellness benefit with the team and they love it. We all have our wellness goals and we talk about them as a team and we help each other out and support each other. So, I try to bring that work-life balance in a lot of different ways. I don't think there is any one way, but it's something that's incredibly important to me and always top of mind.

Melanie Avalon: I love that reframe of work-life integration. It just occurred to me, I think we need to rebrand the word self-care because I think we don't call like-- when we take our car to the gas station, we don't call it self-care for the car. We call it just filling up the car with gas. I just think it's so important. You have to schedule time into your life to fill yourself up with energy and rest and you have to take care of your body that you're in. We call it self-care. Then I think people think that's selfish because of the word. So, I'm voting for like a new word for self-care. 

Rebecca Rudisch: I will vote with you. That's a good point. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you. This has been so incredibly amazing. Again, you're so kind. So, for listeners, if you like to get your own Yummers, so you can get 20% off sitewide @yummerspets.com/ifpodcast and then you can also get that free dog food and one of their three flavors for free, just go to yummerspets.com/ifpodcast and that offer will be there as well. Well, this was amazing. Anything else that you would like to share with our listeners, Rebecca, about Yummers or where you're at or anything that you would like to put out there.

Rebecca Rudisch: I mean, please take us up on the opportunity to try out some Yummers like it would mean the world to us. And please provide any feedback. We're trying to be the most amazing company for your pets, so please do that. I just want to say thank you, Melanie. Your community is so inspiring and I know that it is because of all the hard work that you do. And you've been so kind to me in this conversation. I just want to say you were a true inspiration to me and I know to so many of the people who are listening today. So, thank you for having me. This has been really really special.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, you're so sweet. I so enjoyed this and I'm so grateful that you sent that email and reached out those many many months ago, because for listeners, Rebecca and I have many potential adventures we want to go on in the future. But I just so appreciate your friendship and this relationship and I'm super excited to see everything that you do with Yummers and I'm super excited for listeners to try it and report back. So, yes, this has been wonderful and I guess I will talk to you very soon.

Rebecca Rudisch: Talk to you soon. Thank you so much, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: You too, Rebecca. Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Sep 24

Episode 336: Eating Timing, Skipping Lunch, Pregnancy, Gestational Diabetes, Keto, Carnivore, Low Carb, App Creation, Scammers, Interviews, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 336 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also GRAPEFRUIT IS HERE TO STAY!

Yummers: Co-founded by Antoni Porowski and Jonathan Van Ness, Yummers provides premium-quality, tasty, healthy “Gourmet” and “Functional" mix-Ins to support the utmost health of your pet! Yummers uses premium-grade animal proteins, real fruits and veggies, and each ingredient is processed separately from one another to maximize flavor and nutritional value. Get 20% off sitewide AND a free sample of Yummers NEW dog food at yummerspets.com/ifpodcast with the code ifpodcast20!

TONE DEVICE: Introducing the Brand New Second Generation Tone Device! If you practice regular IF, TRE, prolonged fasting and or low carb/keto, your body makes a metabolic switch to primarily burning fat for fuel! Being metabolically flexible means you can readily tap into stored fat for energy. With the Tone device you simply breathe into the device when fasting and receive an instant reading on your breath ketones. You may test an unlimited amount of times, with one investment in a Tone. Get on the exclusive VIP list to be notified when the 2nd Generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also GRAPEFRUIT IS HERE TO STAY! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At Yummerspets.Com/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

TONE DEVICE: Get On The Exclusive VIP List To Be Notified When The 2nd Generation Is Available To Order And Receive The Launch Discount At tonedevice.com!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #215 - Vanessa Spina

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Feedback: Jewels - Barry Conrad

Listener Q&A: Neva - While I would be interested in testing the impact of having my eating window earlier, I have NO idea how anyone does that around a weekday job!

Danger Coffee: Danger Coffee is clean, mold-free, remineralized coffee created by legendary biohacker Dave Asprey, and engineered to fuel your dangerous side! Get 10% off at melanIeavalon.com/dangercoffee with the code melanieavalon!

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to Episode 336 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 336 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: Vanessa, I had the most fabulous time interviewing you yesterday. 

Vanessa Spina: It was such a magical experience. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. It was such a treat and an honor to get to be on your incredible podcast. And I had the best time, seriously I had the best night. So, thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, I think assuming the lineup doesn't change, I think it will have already aired actually on September 15th. So, if friends would like to check it out. I had Vanessa on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and we dived deep into so many things, especially her Tone breath ketone device and all the different types of ketones, and then all these random questions that she and I apparently historically have thought about in rabbit holes about protein and gluconeogenesis and all that stuff. So, it was so fun. Thank you again. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. [chuckles] And it amazes me constantly how similar we are. I was re-listening to an interview that I did with our mutual friend Dr. Dom D'Agostino a couple of years ago. It was actually three years ago. It was the first time I had him on the podcast and we started talking about CGMs, and I was like, "I really believe that if every person in the world wore CGMs." [laughter] Melanie literally said that last week when we were recording. It's just crazy. I mean, that's before we even really got to be friends. I think like three, three and half years ago. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, we are the same person. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: We really are. Especially yesterday when you made the comment about how you said you found keto and you felt like you had like, a flashlight finally. Like literally, there's like this image in my head where I see myself finding the urinary ketone strip and being like, "Duhh." And the light comes on in the dark. [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: We both were like, "I can scientifically measure my-

Melanie Avalon: My fat burning.

Vanessa Spina: -fat burning" [laughter] Oh, my gosh, we are twins separated at birth or something.

Melanie Avalon: I know, it's so fabulous. 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] But yeah, thanks again for having me on the podcast. It was such an honor. 

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. It was so fun. And then I was so excited because I was like, "We get to talk today."

Vanessa Spina: I know. You do such a phenomenal job with your podcast. Like I was saying yesterday on your podcast that I was telling Pete, you literally are, I think, the best interviewer I've ever heard or listened to. And I'm sure all of the listeners right now are nodding their heads in agreement because they know your level of preparation and research and just in-depth questions. I always try to ask different questions than people ask on every other podcast. But you do that and you do it so well and you're just such an amazing listener, interviewer, everything. So, it was truly a delightful experience to get to be interviewed by you. I feel so lucky because I got to be interviewed by you for this podcast and now for your podcast. And yeah, both times were just such a treat.

Melanie Avalon: You are so sweet. And I really do remember when you had me on your show. Thank you. Was that the first time we really met? 

Vanessa Spina: I think so, because I think before that, we had tried to schedule in the past, but our schedules were just so [laughs] opposite that I think we had emailed a few times about it and I had asked you to come on the podcast. And I was like, "I record in the morning," and you were like, "I record in the afternoon." And we were just like, "Yeah, this is not going to happen, but let's just put it out there into the universe and maybe it'll line up at some point." And then I'm not sure what happened, but we made the line up, I guess. Yeah. And then I think we just started voice noting and chatting a weekly basis after that. Now we talk every day. But yeah, it's really amazing. And it's so nice to make amazing connections as an adult. When you're a kid, people come in and out of your life all the time and it's so easy to make connections with people and have things in common. When you're older and you're an adult and you have your own life and your career going on. I don't know, it's just not the same. So, it's really special when someone comes into your life that's like an instant bestie. And yeah, I just love continuing our friendship and I love that we get [chuckles] to talk every week for a couple of hours on this podcast. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. And now it is coming back to me because I remember you emailed and you were saying the time difference, and you were saying, could we do it like, I think you're saying like 8:00 or 9:00 AM.? I was like, "No, yeah." [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And you were like, "How about 7:00 or 8:00 PM?" And I was like, "Oh, no, I can't do that." But yeah, we've made it work, thankfully. And it was worth it. It's been so worth it. More than worth it. 

Melanie Avalon: The thing I remember, though, from that interview was similar to things you just said, like how great your questions were. And I was like, "Oh, they were things I would think about, but nobody had definitely ever asked me. Or they were things I hadn't even thought about before." Because normally you get a lot of the same questions over and over from people, which isn't bad.

Vanessa Spina: No, I feel the same way. Like yesterday when you asked me about the ratios and if they differed from person to person, I was like, "This is the stuff [laughs] that I think about all the time." But I feel like nobody else, except for maybe like, Dom might think about these things. [laughs] And he's a ketone scientist in a lab. Anyway yeah, it's amazing and I hope people enjoy the episode. And I was saying to you last night, I really want to interview you again in the future on my podcast, especially when you come out with your EMF blocking headphones. This is something that I literally think about every day. Every day when I'm out, I see maybe like it seems like 50% or 60% of the people I see have AirPods in. 

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Vanessa Spina: It almost, it seems like everyone and also because I'm usually commuting when I'm out, I'm, like, on the tram and I'm going here and there and everybody is wearing Bluetooth headphones and Peter and I, like, "We were those people too," until we started understanding more about how it's, like, microwaving your brain so [laughs] and just, like, really bad for your mitochondria. Anyway, I just would love to have you back on to talk all about EMFs and how dangerous they are, how disruptive they can be to our mitochondria and your whole entrepreneurial journey with so many of the products you've done. But now you're going into tech products, which is like my favorites-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: Tech Duos Inspiring Vision. [laughter] Never gets old, never gets old.

Vanessa Spina: For anyone who doesn't know that's the AI poem that Melanie-- 

Melanie Avalon: ChatGPT]

Vanessa Spina: --had written about Elon Musk and I. So yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Sorry. It called Tech Duos Inspiring Vision. [laughter] Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: So funny.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm really, really thrilled about this. This tech world. Yeah so, for listeners, I'll just tell them briefly the IARC classifies EMFs as Group 2B, which means possibly carcinogenic to humans, which means there're quite a few studies showing that they are possibly carcinogenic. If you go and look at these studies, there are many showing insinuating, they are carcinogenic. And I mentioned this before as well, but even if you go in your phone and go into the settings and go into the legal section, there is a disclaimer in your phone basically saying it's better to use your phone on speakerphone or not by your head because of the RF exposure. It tells you that in the phone. And this is Apple telling you this. So, the headphones I'm releasing will be air tubes that do not emit any EMFs, and they're going to come in black and rose gold. And we actually just finished the-- well, I'm signing off, hopefully on the packaging today. So next steps are coming. I'm excited. 

Vanessa Spina: I love rose gold. My Tone is black and rose gold is my favorite one. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, rose gold is my favorite. It's like my favorite life color, like, to integrate into my life. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm not surprised. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's so great. 

Vanessa Spina: It is beautiful. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: For listeners who are interested, if you want to get the launch special, definitely get on my email list for it. That's at melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist, so go there. Oh, and actually, hopefully you didn't miss it. Hopefully you're on my email list. But I actually just did a summit with R Blank at Shield your Body. They have a lot of really cool speakers all about awareness around EMFs and just health in general. I think it was about healthier tech was the summit. So hopefully you were on my email list for that. But anything else new with you, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I've been working furiously on the launch of the new second generation Tone device. I think we talked about it on a recent episode, but I'm just having so much fun with it because part of it is redesigning the boxes, which we just finished, and now we're redoing the manual. And I feel so excited about the manual because I feel like from the first generation to now, I've just learned so much about sort of like, helpful things and ways to educate, and inform more about the product itself. As I was saying, it takes a lot of education because it's a new product. So, I'm almost done rewriting the manual, but it's been a really fun experience to be like, "Okay, you can figure out your individual baseline, which we're talking about your podcast last night, if you do 24-hour fast, or you can do an MCT challenge, which I think is so cool and so much fun." I've done it so many times with the Tone, especially now because I'm pregnant. Normally, I just do an extended fast when I'm testing the higher ketones on the latest iteration or model, but this time, because I'm pregnant, I've been doing the MCT challenge instead. So, I basically have like two tablespoons of MCT oil powder in coffee, usually decaf because it's in the afternoon. And then I just test blood ketones and breath ketones every like 15 minutes for the next 2 hours. [chuckles] 

I'm literally having so much fun doing this whenever I do it and it's like every 30 minutes, you see it go up in the blood and then you see it go up a little bit delayed in the breath, and then they match up. There's a little bit of a time lag with the breath, because the breath, as were talking about, is a byproduct of the blood ketones. So, you see it-- like you drink it and then you see it go through your liver and the ketones hit your blood, and then they start diffusing through your airways. So, it's just a really fun way to figure out your baseline with the Tone, but also your ratio. So, you know, okay, this is at the peak, it usually happens about 2 hours after you're like, "Okay, this is what my readings on the Tone device look like when my blood is like 1.1 millimolar ketones." And if you have a ratio of 1:1, it'll also be like for me, I was doing it last night, it was like 12 and 13 when I had like a 1.1 millimolar in the blood. So, my ratio right now is pretty close to 1:1. And that makes total sense because when you are eating a eucaloric diet at maintenance or surplus, which I am doing right now because I'm growing a baby, you tend to have a closer ratio there, the 1:1. So, anyway, I'm having so much fun writing the manual, having so much fun with all the little pieces. Like, this is the stuff that I love, just this process of it. And then the launch is always really, really fun and getting people excited about it too. But I just feel like I'm in heaven [laughs] dealing with these aspects of it. It's just so fun and exciting and you know exactly what I'm talking about because you're doing it too. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you have an app for it? 

Vanessa Spina: Do you remember what I told you about the app?

Melanie Avalon: Vaguely, I remember we talked about it. 

Vanessa Spina: So, I was working on the app for the last two years so that the latest version would be Bluetooth. And the programmer that I hired, I had been working with him for years, and we basically got like 99% done with the app. I haven't actually shared this on my podcast yet because I'm still mentally dealing [laughs] with it. We got 99% done. He uploaded it. My designer did all the slides, the artwork, everything, they built the back end, the whole app itself. And as he was putting it onto the Apple Store, there were some issues with privacy or something because it's like a health app, so it's collecting health data. And during that process, I think he got so frustrated by the process that he just effed off and disappeared. [laughs] So, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: No, I didn't know that, I don't think.

Vanessa Spina: I spent thousands and thousands of capital on it and he just disappeared. 

Melanie Avalon: Had you paid him?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: And he took the money and ran? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And there was still more that-- it wasn't the full amount. I was just paying him weekly because him and his team were working on it weekly. I never imagined that he would do all the work on it and then just leave. And I've tried multiple times to contact him and just be like, "Can you just give me what you did and then I can have someone else finish it."

 

Melanie Avalon: You don't have access to what he did. 

Vanessa Spina: Um-Um. I do have our images and slides because my designer worked on those, but I basically have to start from scratch. And at this point, it would have delayed the second generation way too much. Like, it would have delayed it by another year because it's two components. Like, it's the app component and it's the Bluetooth component. And so, I just kind of said, "Okay, this is like a business lesson, I just have to learn from it and move on right now." And maybe the third generation will have the Bluetooth in it, but I think it's okay. The Tone itself has memory in it. So just like when you test your blood glucose or ketones, you can go back and look at the memory. Like, you can keep a written log if you want to. You don't necessarily have to have the app. It's something I still want to do because I wanted to build it. The idea was to build it specifically for my community of users that's using the Tone, so that together we could share our results and our experiments. And, yeah, it was really disappointing, but not everything goes your way, [chuckles] and sometimes you learn big lessons, and I will definitely learn from it and not make the same mistake again. But I just trust people a lot, [laughs] maybe too much. And I never thought that someone would do that. But, yeah, here we are. So unfortunately, it's not going to have the app, but hopefully maybe in a year or so, if I can find someone reliable that can sort of pick up where we left off and build it again or finish it at least, because it's true. I do have the artwork and the images, so at least it's not totally lost. 

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I am so sorry. That is-

Vanessa Spina: Thanks.

Melanie Avalon: -awful. I am so sorry. It's not good timing, but it's appropriate timing because I've been thinking of doing, I'm really excited because there's an app I've been wanting to make for years, and there's also a person I've been wanting to partner with in some capacity also for years. And it just so turns out that this app that I want to make, this other person also wants to make. So, we're like, tentatively talking about making it. And so, I've been looking into the app creation process. And so, I did a call this week, actually, with Dr. Caroline Leaf, who I recently had on the show. I adore her with somebody from her team because they have an app. And I was getting advice, and one of the things she said was, make sure you have everything stored with the app on-- it's this website where it's basically for storing that type of stuff, like source coding stuff. And she's like, "Make sure that you have complete control and ownership and access and login so that you always have all of this stuff all the time." And sounds like hearing your experience, definitely. 

Vanessa Spina: That's my lesson that I'm here to learn. And you can learn from my mistake without even having to experience it. So, I'm glad. And maybe someone out there listening will also [laughs] take away from my mistake. But it's definitely a part of business. You learn the most from your failures. And I think the first few times I attempted setting up a business, they didn't work out the way that I thought they would. And that's how you become a good business owner, a good entrepreneur, is from your mistakes, from learning from them. Sometimes you don't have to make them. Sometimes you learn from other people's. But yeah, it's all part of the process. But I will definitely be doing that next time. So, I'll be getting the name of that program from you for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: It's GitHub. This will make you feel better. I fell once for a scammer. Like one of those scammers in India-type situations. And I don't mean that politically, like, literally, it's like they're in India usually and they're scamming you. And I was literally-- it was the situation-- have I talked about this before? 

Vanessa Spina: I don't think so. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: It was like a situation where I understand how people get in these things and just go so far. It's because you get in it so far and you know that you're probably being scammed. You're in it so far that if you admit that to yourself, then you'd rather just keep on and maybe it's not a scam. So, it was literally to the point where I was driving to a gas station at 2:00 AM to put cash in a bitcoin machine and send it to India, because I thought they were going to do the things they were telling me. They're very good at--

Vanessa Spina: They're going to build something for you or make something for you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: I was using a third-party service where you are matched up with contractors. And I use that for a lot of my contractors. And I had been working with this contractor for years, and they had delivered on everything. They were like one of the top-rated programmers on this website. Everything that they did was like perfect, flawless, amazing. And I don't even think that they wanted to do this, but I thought that the third-party service would offer me protection. And what I figured out too late is that you can get a refund or request a refund on the week before, I think up to two or three weeks' worth of work. But if it's been like six months, which it had been, you can't go back and get refunds anymore on any of those weekly installments. So, I was paying them out weekly and every week they were delivering like, here are the slides, here's the latest progress. Every week it was moving along and I don't know why [chuckles] you won't just finish it, but at some point, you have to just be like, "Okay, this is too stressful, it's not worth it, it's not going to go anywhere. They're just stonewalling me now, so I just have to cut my losses and move on." It could have been worse, [laughs] probably could have been worse, but thankfully I can move on from it and start again. But it just means that for my users of the Tone, who've been waiting for the app and for the Bluetooth version, it's just going to be a little bit longer wait, but that's okay. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like I said, I lost thousands when I had that scam moment, so I completely empathize.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean, that's the beauty and the sort of danger or the dark side of the internet. Like you can connect with people all over the world, you can get amazing things done, but sometimes there's a dark side to it too. There's definitely a dark side to it, so, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Will the device have an airplane mode? 

Vanessa Spina: So, the Tone does not have any frequency. And that's what's really interesting too, is that in order to set up Bluetooth on it, you have to get a number of compliance tests done, just like you have to do for the other stuff. In electronics, we already have all that stuff, but adding the Bluetooth would mean that it now falls under this because it's like producing frequency. It's producing Hertz. Anything that's producing frequency has to meet certain standards and reports and different certifications. So, there's all that sign to it as well, which right now with a baby coming, I don't mind not having to deal with all that right now too, because it's a lot. So, it's probably for the best that it's in the future. But the device as it is right now does not send out any frequencies, so there's no EMFs being produced from it because it's rechargeable. So, you charge it and then you use it and then you don't have to charge it usually for like two, three months. [chuckles] It's really amazing. The battery lasts forever, like forever and you don't have to be plugged in when you're using it and there's no frequency being emitted. So, it's basically like EMF free. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, maybe the extra time you have for developing the Bluetooth mode, you'll be able to develop an airplane mode with a Bluetooth mode. 

Vanessa Spina: That's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon: It'll be a further selling point. 

Vanessa Spina: Totally. I never thought about actually having that on it. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, I know I'm the one that's like the crazy EMF all the time thing, but it's a big selling point for people, and you can turn it into a really big selling point, because especially in the biohacking world, which it's the type of people using this are a lot of biohackers, and a lot of them are very concerned about EMFs. So, if you have, like, an airplane mode, it's like, "Ooh, you want the extra step."

Vanessa Spina: I get it. I feel like all my technology that I handle every day is on airplane mode a lot. Throughout the day, obviously all night. [laughs] I don't want anything touching my person that can't be on airplane mode. So, yeah, I feel the same way. 

Melanie Avalon: So maybe it's for the better you know. 

Vanessa Spina: I like it. Yes. Thank you. I'm writing all these tips down. I'll definitely make sure it has an airplane mode or an option to turn it off. 

Melanie Avalon: That'd be so exciting. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And that's probably important for the plane too and stuff, because you have to bring it in the cabin. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: You can't pack it in your suitcase. You have to bring it in the cabin with you whenever you're flying. So, it would definitely have to have an airplane mode. [laughs] Thanks for that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I'm excited. Okay. 

Vanessa Spina: So nice to have brilliant friends. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. We're like a think tank. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: So, shall we get to some listener questions and feedback? 

Vanessa Spina: Let's dig in. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so we're actually going to start off with some listener feedback. This literally came in right before we started recording, so I thought I would read it really quickly. And it's because on the day that we're recording, we aired a special guest interview on this show with Barry Conrad, who's an actor, singer, songwriter from Australia. This is from Jules. And she just said, "I enjoyed your podcast with Barry so much. Definitely one of my favorite episodes. Please bring him back on again. Love the show." And then we got some other feedback about that as well. And first of all, thank you, Jules, for writing in and the support. And I'm so glad you enjoyed the interview with Barry. That was a really cool, fun episode because he's killing it as far as acting and TV roles. And we talked a lot about his fasting journey. And he had the stereotypical moment because he's an actor.

He had that moment that's like, such a cliche, where was it, like an agent or a casting director, but told him, "Oh, maybe you need to lose a little weight," which is just, like, really sticks with your psyche. So, we talked a lot about the psychology and also it was really nice because I feel like a lot of this is often girls. We talk a lot about women's perspective, and women talk about that a lot. So, it was nice to talk about it from a male perspective. And he talked about how intermittent fasting is, how he used it in his life, and he's a big foodie, so we talked about food. And it was a really, really fun episode. If you guys like that. Well, even if you don't, because it's already in the lineup, hopefully you guys liked it. But we are thinking of having some more guests here and there on the show that I'm really excited about. I'll actually do a call right now. If you have questions about CGMs, send them to us because we're going to do a special episode about that. If you have questions about autoimmune conditions, diet for autoimmune conditions, specifically, like a ketogenic diet, we're bringing Dr. Terry Wahls onto the show, who we adore. And then we have my incredible friend Rebecca coming on. So, she is founder of a company called Yummers, which is this incredible-- they make pet food toppers, but I think now they're going to launch actual pet food, but it's all like healthy food for your pets. And she founded it with Antoni Porowski and JVN from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Vanessa, have you ever watched that show? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't. 

Melanie Avalon: I haven't either. I feel like it's been on for ever. I feel like it was on when I was in middle school. 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Yeah, probably. 

Melanie Avalon: In any case, she founded it with Antoni and JVN, who are two of the main people on that show now and she does fasting. We're great friends and she found me because she listened to the show. Yeah, she's wonderful. And she does fasting and biohacking and so we're going to bring her on and talk about fasting and biohacking and pet food and her entrepreneurial journey. So, I'm really excited. So, any questions about that, about female entrepreneurship? This woman is like an inspiration. She's been top level, like VP level at Target and HEB and 7-Eleven. She's a wonder. So, we're bringing her on. And then I am going to have my first in-person interview ever. Vanessa, have you done an-- We talked about this. Have you done an in-person interview?

Vanessa Spina: I'm trying to think and [chuckles] I don't think I have. I mean, I have on other people's shows, but never when I was hosting, like on my show unless it was like a video. And then, yeah, I have at conferences done some videos with people, but not really not a formal like, let's step into a studio, let's get a sound tech here. 

Melanie Avalon: Let's get a team. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, I am going to be doing an in-person interview with Dave Asprey, which is kind of crazy because I'm actually thinking, spoiler alert of moving to Austin. Pretty sure I'm going to. And he lives in Austin, so I need to feel out Austin. And we wanted to have him on this show anyways because he has not been on this show and he is such a legend in the biohacking world and the fasting world. And he has his new Danger Coffee, which I am obsessed with. Friends, get Danger Coffee. It's my new favorite coffee. Historically, I was drinking Bulletproof coffee for like a decade. A lot of people know this, but maybe if you don't-- He actually got kicked out of Bulletproof. It was like a lot of drama. He's trying to get it back now, I think is word on the street. But in the meantime, he launched Danger Coffee, which is essentially everything he did with Bulletproof coffee, which is organic. I mean, it's not certified organic. They use organic practices. And it's tested to be free of pesticides and mold and it's a remineralized coffee, which is so cool.

So, it is a patent pending formula that has more than 50 trace minerals, nutrients, and electrolytes, which I think is just so cool. And I love the taste of it. So, we're going to do a question on-- because I know we have a lot of coffee drinkers. So, if you have any questions about any questions for Dave in general, anything goes. He will literally answer. He'll talk about anything but, yeah, fasting, biohacking, and coffee. Send us those as well. And if you would like to try Danger Coffee, go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. This makes a great present, by the way, because it can be hard to find presents for people. And this is like a really nice coffee. So, I'm going to be gifting this to so many people come Christmas time. But yes, friends, I'm definitely very nervous about that upcoming interview[sigh] just because I've never done one in person. So, it's going to be like a lot to take in.

Vanessa Spina: You can do dress rehearsals.

Melanie Avalon: With myself.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Or you could have, like, your sister or something. I'm sure you learned that extensively from theater and acting. But you could dress in what you're going to wear and pretend that your sister is your guest [Melanie laughs] Dave Asprey and come in and be like, do the whole rehearsal. Do it a few times, and then when it's time for lights, camera, action, you'll be all rehearsed and ready to go.

Melanie Avalon: That's true. I definitely need to make sure with the mic set up, that it's all good. I am going to bring-- Vanessa knows this. I'm going to bring with me my favorite photographer because it's hard to find a photographer that you feel really comfortable with. So, I'll feel good having somebody there that I know, who I know will make everything look nice. So that should be fun. Okay. So that's a teaser.

Vanessa Spina: I do that every time I'm going to be speaking. I do regular rehearsals and then I do dress rehearsals where I'm wearing what I'm going to be wearing and I have the slides. And then when I'm at the venue before giving the talk, I always ask if I can go on stage and do a last dress rehearsal there. So, I wear the outfit, I have the slides and everything. And usually the tech people are like, setting up the day before. So, they're like, "Sure, just come and do it." And they're happy that you're rehearsing because they want to rehearse too. I have to do that [laughs] to prepare myself. And I got that from being in drama and acting and stuff. So, I'm sure you did that extensively. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I was thinking about that recently. I was thinking about how-- because it's so weird, the opportunities that I've been having recently with reporters and press and interviews, and I'm so, so grateful and it's so surreal. And I was thinking about it, though, because I was thinking about how these are interviews that in the past-- I do think the rehearsal is really important, but I probably would have done that for days beforehand. And now, literally, I'm like, "I just show up." [laughs] I think it's because I don't want to get overly stressed. I do a lot of prep, but then I let it go, and then I just show up, which is how I approach the show, the interview with guests as well. But I do agree that's actually a really good idea. Now, should we answer some questions? I'm sorry. So, Jules, thank you for the feedback. We're glad you're enjoying it. And stay tuned for more guests. All right, so with all that in mind, so please submit questions to questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go in our Facebook group and submit questions, but we would love questions for any of those topics. Would you like to read the question from Neva, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, Neva Warnock asks, "While I would be interested in testing the impact of having my eating window earlier, I have no idea how anyone does that around a weekday job. I get up a little after 5:00 AM. And hoof it to get the critters tended to, me ready and out the door by 6:30. Work 7:00 to 4:00, home 5:00ish. Eating before dinner would be so challenging and not relaxing. What are your thoughts?"

Melanie Avalon: Hi, Neva. Thank you for your question. I love this question because I think it ties into something that so many people experience, not even with just fasting, really with so many things in life where something works for you and is working in your life and it doesn't fit exactly with societal norms or people are saying that it should be a different way. And so, it makes you question what you're doing. It makes you wonder if you should be doing something different. So, for you, you really wanted to try this idea of an earlier eating window, likely because she doesn't say this, but she says the impact. So, I'm guessing it's probably just because hearing what people talk about the benefits of an earlier eating window, so you probably feel a little bit of pressure to try it, but you look at your whole life and logistically it doesn't make sense. You think it would probably be stressful and challenging and not relaxing.

So, my thoughts are you don't have to try an earlier eating window. [chuckles] I mean you don't need me to tell you that for permission, but I would just keep doing what you're doing, and I wouldn't stress about it. And we've talked a lot about the difference between earlier versus late-night eating windows. I did do a really long blog post that I really like about this. It's called Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes. The link for it is melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming. And I really dive deep into the studies on early versus late-night eating and the many factors that we often don't account for in those studies. Honestly, I walked in, I sat down, I tried to be as unbiased as possible. Just because of the zeitgeist surrounding early eating, I thought it was going to be a no brainer looking at the studies like, "Oh yeah, early eating is way better than late-night eating."

Like I thought that was just going to be overwhelmingly what I would find in the studies. And it wasn't bad to that extent because of all of the nuances. And by the nuances, I mean that the majority of the studies I found looking at early eating weren't ever really comparing it. Usually, they were comparing it like early eating to eating all throughout the day or there were very few studies that were actually comparing just early to just late in an intermittent fasting pattern. And then some studies I did find hormonally it actually seemed better to me, eating not late crazy like I do, but not right when you wake up either. So, I would just say that it's all about finding what works for you. And Neva it sounds like what you're doing works for you. So, I would not sweat it. I wouldn't be overstressed about it. Vanessa, what are your thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: I was going to literally say [laughs] the exact same thing. You don't have to do it. You should only do it if it's something that really works for you, is easy to implement, don't feel pressured to try it. I love how you brought up the nuance, as you always do so well with how even though we do see a lot of research pointing to front loading of calories, especially when it comes to intermittent fasting and the beneficial effects on hormones, etc. I wouldn't say it's conclusive. There are very few things that are completely conclusive. I think there are other factors that can probably make a big difference as well. I found myself starting a new intermittent fasting pattern where I was having breakfast within an hour of waking and then going back into the fasted state 4 to 5 hours later because I was fasting until dinner. And I was recently interviewing one of my favorite protein scientists who I always talk about, Dr. Don Layman. This is what he does as well after spending 50 years researching protein. And he found that it's an amazing pattern for especially protecting your lean body mass. And after an overnight period of time when we're more catabolic. It's great to sort of blunt muscle protein breakdown by having a protein meal. It's also great for leptin if you have leptin resistance. But I found my way there by trying so many different things and trying things that would actually work for me and my family. And when I actually tried the breakfast and dinner pattern because, like you, I wanted to try it did not work for us as a family at all. But I do think that sometimes you can see how your life goes and maybe things will change at some point.

You'll have an opportunity where you'll be able to eat earlier in the day, but if you don't find it relaxing and dinner should be a relaxing meal where you're spending time with your family and you're nourishing yourself after a long day of working hard, I don't think you should feel any pressure at all to do that kind of approach. [chuckles] And it sounds like you think maybe or you have the perception maybe that a lot of people are doing that, and I don't think that they are. I've talked to so many people who said that they've tried it and it just doesn't work because dinner is our most social meal. Typically, it's when we get together with our loved ones, it's when we get together with friends. It's like usually when we go out with friends and catch up. So not having that dinner meal is really difficult. What I find for myself is that once in a while, like, on the weekend, the opportunity will come up where Pete and I both feel like having an early dinner. And we'll have dinner at, like, 3:30 or 4:00, and it's great, but I get up at, like, 05:30, 06:00 every day, which is also similar [Melanie laughs] to the pattern that you're doing.

So, getting up at 05:00 or 06:00 and rushing off you're out the door by 06:30. I don't quite leave the house by 06:30, but I am usually up 05:30, 06:00, and that gives me an hour of time before Luca's up. And so, I have an hour to myself in the morning to catch up on things and set my state tone for the day anyway. I also get up early, and so for me, having an early dinner is amazing. We actually did that today. We had an opportunity that came up and the way that it worked with our schedule, both Pete and I were hungry around 03:30. Actually, we started cooking at 03:00 and we ended up eating dinner at 04:00. And it's now 08:00 and I know that by the time I go to bed in a couple of hours, I'm going to be feeling great because I've had all this time to digest and I'm not going to be going to sleep on a full stomach, which for me is really difficult to do, [chuckles] especially right now being pregnant. But even when I'm not. So, I would say maybe opportunities will pop up if maybe it's on a weekend or on a holiday where you could try it out and see how you feel or test your blood glucose or ketones or whatever it is that you're testing and see if it works for you. But I wouldn't put undue pressure on yourself to do it when, as you said, it's not going to line up well with your work schedule.

Melanie Avalon: That was all really great advice. I can't even imagine going to bed on an empty stomach or having eaten that, like I have to sleep on a full stomach.

Vanessa Spina: But do you eat and then go right to bed? 

Melanie Avalon: Yup.

Vanessa Spina: What time do you eat? I feel like it's pretty late. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't even like saying how late it is because I'll tell you offline. 

Vanessa Spina: No, I figured it was going to be late because you said that you wind down and then you have dinner. And I know when you wind down. [laughter] Okay, so she's eating dinner really late. I just can't. I have to eat usually in an hour's time just with how things are with Luca. But I really don't sleep well if I go to bed with a full stomach. So, it's funny, we actually have some differences, but especially right now, my stomach is so small because I'm pregnant and I'm in the sixth month of pregnancy now, so everything is getting more and more compressed. So, I have the tiniest stomach right now, which has been challenging because I love to eat a lot of protein.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Because the baby is growing and so it compresses the stomach.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I'll send you a picture of what it looks like, but all your organs, like, shift. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, [Vanessa laughs] I can't. I can't do that. [laughter] Oh, like my worst fear, I'm already, like, neurotic about my digestive system and organs. Oh, wow. Thank you for being a mom and doing that so I don't have to.

Vanessa Spina: Trust me, I had the same concerns and fears but it's totally fine. You don't even notice it. It's just that when you do eat, you get full a lot faster. I feel like I had like a gastric bypass or something sometimes. So, I get full really fast. And it's definitely been a challenge for me right now because I like to eat big protein meals and it's yeah, difficult because I'll get so full, uncomfortably full if I overeat. And I don't mean overeat, I just mean eat beyond what my tiny stomach [laughs] take right now. And it's really funny because a friend and I were talking about this on the weekend because they just got back from this all-inclusive resort that has breakfast and dinner buffet, and she's two months ahead of me and she was, like, saying how hard it is right now, because and this is, like, major first world problems, but if you're at a beautiful hotel with incredible buffet dinner and she's like, "Every night, I would enjoy the buffet." And then at the end I would be like, I can't move and [chuckles] I have to lie down. And I was like, I'm thinking about that every day because we're going back to Greece in a few weeks and they have this incredible breakfast and dinner buffet, and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm going to do." I'm really scared because I usually have at least two trips to the buffet for dinner and I usually get really full, and that's when I'm not pregnant. So, I don't know, I might have to have lunch or some kind of midday snack or something so that I'm less hungry at dinner. I might have to actually do, like, small meals for the last few months or something. Anyway, that's major first world problems. [laughs] But it's just funny how things change and I feel like definitely went on a tangent here.

Melanie Avalon: That's how we're also different. If I have a snack earlier, I am ravenous. I will eat more later.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, me too. But I feel like this may be my only option.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Literally.

Vanessa Spina: So that at dinner, I just don't feel like I have to have as much and I really don't want to do that. But if you have breakfast at 07:00, which is what we do when we're there, and then we have dinner, the dinner opens at like, 06:00 or 06:30, which is really late for me. So, by that time you're ready to eat, [laughs] you're ready to have dinner. And yeah, normally I have a couple of trips to the buffet and I feel really good about it. I'm eating mostly lean protein and delicious healthy foods. But, yeah, it's going to be a problem [laughs] when we're there. I don't know what I'm going to do because I don't like going to bed full and yeah, I'm going to have to figure something out.

Melanie Avalon: Can I ask you a controversial question related to content for this podcast that I wanted to talk to you about yesterday? 

Vanessa Spina: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: And it's related to what you're talking about. How do you feel about intermittent fasting and keto while pregnant? 

Vanessa Spina: So, I don't recommend anything to anybody else, you know most of what I do and share about is just me sharing my own journey. I'm not saying anyone should do what I do. When I was pregnant with Luca, I still had two meals a day. I was doing lunch and dinner and I was doing keto, and I had an amazing pregnancy. I had a really easy time getting pregnant. I was doing ketogenic carnivore around the time that we decided to get pregnant. I thought it would take like, four to five months, but we got pregnant on the first attempt. And I'm not saying that to gloat or anything, because the second time around we had a little bit more challenges. And you would know about that if you maybe heard me talk about it on my podcast, but it's definitely a very sensitive area, and I know that with my own experience as well. But I'm just talking about my first pregnancy with Luca. We had a really easy time getting pregnant. I had the smoothest pregnancy. I didn't have 5 seconds of nausea in my entire pregnancy. I had no symptoms the entire time. I didn't even have swelling, which is like something that everybody gets. And the doctors and nurses were like, "Why are you not swollen?" Like, your legs and feet usually get swollen. My blood pressure was perfect. Stayed like 90/60 the entire time I was pregnant. No, obviously no issues with gestational diabetes or anything. It was a healthy, fit pregnancy. I worked out, I did resistance training, I felt amazing the whole time. Luca has turned out incredible. He's just an amazing boy. So that's what worked for me.

And a lot of people advise against doing any kind of intermittent fasting, and I agree with that because I do think that when you're pregnant, you should really be in tune to what your body wants and needs. I have been doing intermittent fasting and keto for so long, for so many years before getting pregnant, that my body was very well adapted to being fat fueled to this kind of approach, to all of it. If I had ever felt nauseous, which usually can sometimes be because you're hungry or there're different factors behind that, I would have just eaten, but I was just not hungry. Like, in the morning, I would get hungry for lunch and then I would have dinner and I just stuck to that and I stuck to keto the entire time. But that's not for anyone else to emulate or copy or anything. Like, you need to make your own decisions, do your own research, talk to your own care provider. So, I don't advocate these things to anyone else. I don't think people should try to follow a specific diet or anything like that or a specific meal timing pattern when they are pregnant. Just listen to your body and do what feels good and you know yourself best. It's up to you how you do your pregnancy and that's how you nourish yourself and your baby. But that's just what worked for me.

I've talked to lots of people who are sort of in this community and space who did similar things and who also had no issues, and I'm sure there are people who do it and do have issues this time with this pregnancy, when I got pregnant, I was doing breakfast and dinner, so I've just maintained that. But if I ever get hungry, like earlier in the day, like I did today, I got home, we'd had breakfast early in the morning, and then I got home with Luca around 02:30. And then Pete and I decided to have dinner and we started making dinner at 03:00. So, I just go with whatever I feel like if I'm hungry, I will eat, but I just find that two meals a day usually works for me. [chuckles] And now that my space is getting more limited, I am thinking about maybe I should be breaking it up into more meals just so that it's easier for me, because I don't like feeling uncomfortably full and I do like to eat a lot of protein. And pregnancy is a time when the one thing I will recommend to people is that you make sure to get more protein than usual, because it is one of the times that our protein requirements go up, especially in the second and third semester, we need more protein. Typically, you need 300 more calories per day in the second semester and 500 more calories per day in the third trimester. So those are recommendations that are out there and very well researched. 

But, yeah, I know that people have opinions on what people should and shouldn't do, and I just listen to my body and I do what has been working really well for me for years to have great metabolic health. So, I think the fact that I'm continuing to do what I was doing before is part of what makes it successful for me. Like, if I had been doing a standard American high-carb diet and then suddenly switched to doing intermittent fasting and doing keto, I would never recommend anyone do that unless they actually get gestational diabetes. In which case, my dear friend Lily Nichols has an incredible book called, well, she has Real Food for Pregnancy, and then she also wrote a book about low carb for gestational diabetes. And her book was so amazing that actually the Czech government here where we are, in Prague, used her book to change the policy on what they recommend to women who have gestational--

Melanie Avalon: Whoa.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, gestational diabetes. So, they now recommend and advocate a low-carb diet for women who are either prone to gestational diabetes or have gestational diabetes and that's because of Lily. So, yeah, she's really, really amazing. So, I think if it can help with gestational diabetes, then it can probably help prevent it too. And it definitely is something that kept my blood sugars very healthy and in normal ranges the entire time. So. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's definitely controversial, but it's also a very personal decision what you do and how you do it. And for some people, pregnancy is a time to just eat whatever you want. For other people, myself included, it's a time to be extra careful on what you eat, because everything that you eat is basically building your baby. So, for me, it's like the time that I'm the most conscious about eating the most nutrient dense food possible. I don't limit myself in any way, but that's just like the lifestyle that I'm already used to. So, it works really well for me. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for sharing that. And it's one of those topics where I just feel viscerally you have to tiptoe because people have so many really strong opinions about it, so many people are saying you shouldn't even remotely do anything like keto. You shouldn't remotely do anything that even remotely resembles fasting. And I know we're not making recommendations, but I really appreciate your approach of doing intuitively what you've been doing and listening to your body, and you had a beautiful pregnancy and birth, and experience with Luca. And so now just feeling into yourself now and doing what you're doing. Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's my pleasure. And it's something that I definitely-- I don’t even like when people reach out to me and ask me about doing keto during pregnancy, I'm just like, "You have to talk to your doctor and do your own research, because it's not something that I can even speak on because I'm not a physician, I'm not a care provider. I do share my experience, but I'm not sharing it to recommend it. I'm just sharing what I've experienced." And there're a lot of people in our space like, I know Dr. Ken Berry's wife, Neisha, she did keto her whole pregnancy. I mean, there're a number of people, but Robert, Keto Savage's wife, she's known as a Lady Savage. She also did pretty much keto carnivore during her pre-pregnancy and during pregnancy. I'm not sure how she did it exactly, when she was working, but there're a lot of people in the low-carb space who basically just continued on with the lifestyle that helped their body get pregnant in the first place, and so they felt good about continuing it. But I also think, like I said, "If it's something that you're already doing, your body's already adapted to it." But, yeah, you definitely have to figure it out for yourself. Talk to your doctor, figure out what's appropriate for you. If you don't like your doctor, find a low-carb doctor or a doctor who is more attuned to some of the topics that we talk about. But, yeah, I'd be really interested to know if there are any physicians out there who even recommend these kinds of protocols for people with gestational diabetes, because in Czech, it definitely affected the policy here. And I think it's wonderful that they recommend low carb for people who get gestational diabetes because it's a huge problem with a lot of complications for the baby and the mum. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Wow. Super random, but when you published your book, were there any translation versions that came out?

Vanessa Spina: No. I definitely thought about it, but never got to that point.

Melanie Avalon: I had one come out and it was not my doing, but it was Czech.

Vanessa Spina: No way. 

Melanie Avalon: Umm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. So maybe your book is here.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: I should look for it [Melanie laughs] because I was walking by this one bookstore a few months ago, and my friend Leanne Vogel's book was in the window. She wrote a book about keto. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, it's Leanne." 

Melanie Avalon: And it was in Czech. 

Vanessa Spina: It probably was. I think if it was in the window there, but it may not have been. That's really cool. I wonder why I didn’t check. It's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have no idea. 

Vanessa Spina: I mean, it definitely fits with the European lifestyle.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if what year was that that happened with the government making those adjustments? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm not sure exactly which year.

Melanie Avalon: I just wonder if it was, like, in the vibe of the zeitgeist at the time.

Vanessa Spina: I would guess it was sometime in the last five to six years, but I don't know exactly. I'd have to ask Lily or look it up because I'm not sure.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this was probably, like, in later 2018 that they asked for the- where they basically got the royalties for the Czech version.

Vanessa Spina: That's really cool. I wouldn't say that Czech or Prague are particularly advanced when it comes to those kinds of approaches. In the last few years, I have seen more low carb sort of paleo stuff. Usually, it's at farmers markets where people have their own stalls set up and there has been some keto stuff and some sugar free stuff. But it's pretty minimal because the traditional lifestyle here is still alive and well. And it's like a lot of beer, a lot of carbs, a lot of bread, fried things and it's also because it's like a very popular city for tourists, so there's also a lot of tourist food, a lot of deep-fried schnitzel and French fries and just all that kind of stuff. I know you tried some of that stuff when you were in Germany, so I think that kind of food culture here is pretty decadent. [laughs] There's a lot of kind of like Paris. There're a lot of bakeries with all these confectioneries and patisserie, like, I don't know, pastries and all that kind of stuff. But it's very interesting to me that Lily's work did influence the policy here. And I really commend them for it because it is something that is, I think, to an extent, preventable and treatable with diet and lifestyle and nutrition. So, I'm glad that they're-- I'm sure that's not always the case, but we know that I think, to an extent, it is. So, I'm really glad that they're offering people those kinds of options. 

Melanie Avalon: That would be so cool to know that your work had that influence. 

Vanessa Spina: I know. And I'm having her back on the podcast soon and yeah, I'm excited. I'll ask her when it happened, just out of curiosity, which year that was? 

Melanie Avalon: Amazing. Well, perfect, because I've been wanting to ask you about that. So, thank you for sharing your experience and your thoughts. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And again--

Melanie Avalon: Not doctors. No recommendations.

Vanessa Spina: Don’t model me.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Vanessa Spina: This is just me and my weird, my own lifestyle and choices, and it worked for me, but that doesn't mean it'll work for anyone else. I'm definitely not recommending it because it's definitely something very personal that you have to figure out on your own. But, yeah, I'm happy to share what I personally have done and what's worked for me. 

Melanie Avalon: So true. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Also, join us in my Facebook group called IF Biohackers, and you can also ask questions there. And I also sometimes post and ask for questions there as well as a recap up and coming guests, we need questions about CGMs. We're doing an episode on that. If you have questions about diet for autoimmune conditions, especially ketogenic diets and fasting for autoimmune conditions because we're bringing on Dr. Terry Wahls. And then anything about feeding your pet healthfully with Rebecca from Yummers. And then any fasting, biohacking, coffee, anything goes, questions for Dave Asprey. Definitely email those to us as well as your personal questions, and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl right. And then lastly, the show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and a full transcript. That will be @ifpodcast.com/episode336. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun on the episode and can't wait to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Talk to you soon. 

Vanessa Spina: Talk to you soon. Bye 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Sep 17

Episode 335: Fasting Misinformation, Exciting Announcements, Taking Research To Your Doctor, Berberine, Blood Sugar, Cooked Fruit, HBA1c, CGMs, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 335 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get $20 Off Your First Box!

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Listener Q&A: jackie - Why do many nutritionists/dieticians stand by IF not being a healthy for your body, your hormones, etc. and what do you say to them?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #199 - Marion Nestle

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 335 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 335 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I am doing amazing. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have so many exciting things happening right now. 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. I feel the same way. I'm just like buzzing. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, we should buzz together. What's one of your exciting things? 

Vanessa Spina: Well, today I woke up and I had a message from this podcast most recent host, Cynthia Thurlow. And she shared with me that her interview that she did of me on her podcast, Everyday Wellness, which came out on Friday, hit number one on nutrition on the US.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. What? That's so cool. Wait, that's so cool, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: I was so excited. Then I went to go look, and for me, of being an interviewer, I do interviews a few times a year, but this was like one where I felt as were doing the interview, I was like, "This is a good interview." In terms of my interviews, we're talking about all the things that I wanted to talk about, all my core passion topics. It's very educational for women, just women's health, like optimal protein, body composition, just all my favorite topics, even like, mitochondria, ketones, how do you support the mitochondria with red light and cold plunging and just everything. I just felt I've gotten to my stride in terms of doing interviews. And it's also because Cynthia was such an amazing host and asked such phenomenal questions, and I was just like, "Of all the interviews that you would want to do well, this one was awesome." And it has to mean like people were sharing it a lot, so it definitely resonated with people. So, it's made me so happy all day since I woke up and got that message. And, yeah, just a little thrill. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, I know her show already has a massive audience, but do you think somebody shared it as well. Do you think it had like, a snowball effect somewhere? 

Vanessa Spina: I have no idea. If someone did, I don't know about it, so I don't really know. I just assumed that it just got shared by a lot of people. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean yeah, that's very possible. That's amazing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Yeah. So just, been buzzing a little bit all day about it, but yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Congratulations. That makes me so happy. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Yeah, I'm sure some listeners heard it because they probably follow Cynthia's podcast also, but yeah, share with us what are you buzzing about?

Melanie Avalon: Also, just quick. It's so cool. It's like the two, Intermittent Fasting podcasts at one point, cohosts having an interview together. 

Vanessa Spina: Totally. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Aww, I love it. That's apropos because mine involves interviews as well. Mine have not happened yet, but Newsweek wants to interview me for a story on biohacking. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, that's huge. 

Melanie Avalon: So that was very exciting. And they sent over the questions and what you were just saying. Okay, I don't want to get over comfortable, but I feel very in my vibe and energy answering these types of questions about biohacking, especially the more I talk about it and the more interviews I do, the questions she sent over are just so great. So, I'm really excited about that. And then just before this, right before our call, I just found out tomorrow I have an interview with Men's Journal. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that's also huge. Both of them have massive distribution. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. And the one tomorrow, I don't have the full prep tomorrow, but I don't think it's biohacking. I think it's about wine. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, really? 

Melanie Avalon: I think so. So yeah, it's just exciting. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow. Congratulations to you. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. What are the odds that both of ours have to do with interviews and the vibe of really enjoying talking about these things?

Vanessa Spina: I love that. And I feel like I used to cringe a lot of times internally when I would be interviewed by people because a lot of times, they want me to share my story. And I'm one of those people in a group I don't like to be the one who's dominating the conversation or having all the attention on them. So, I'm always felt uncomfortable doing interviews, but I feel like I'm finally, at the point where I can talk about certain topics in an educated way, and I'm well informed, and so I have a confidence about those specific topics that I'm actually sharing useful, helpful information. And I much prefer talk about that than talk about my health story or I don't really like doing that as much. So, we did that a little bit. But yeah, there's something about doing it enough times too that you've hit a stride. And I love that you feel like you're at that point as well where you're just feeling really good about those topics and being interviewed because it's uncomfortable [laughs] sometimes to be interviewed.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I feel the same. And well, it's interesting because my ultimate love has always been acting and performing. So, I'm not camera shy, I don't have any of that. I though, have impostor syndrome surrounding, I think as far as the topics go, because I'm not like a doctor, I'm not a nutritionist, I have a nutrition certification, but I don't have these credentials. So, I always felt uncomfortable, even honestly [laughs] with this show, like talking about medical-related things or even diet-related things. I always just felt and still feel a little bit like I'm not credentialed enough for it. With the biohacking topics, I feel a lot more comfortable with it because it is becoming this thing more and more in the news and it is people like me talking about it. So, yeah, I feel I'm just finding my stride with the questions.

Vanessa Spina: I love [laughs] that we're both having that, it's awesome. That's really, really cool. A little bit of synchronicity, not synergy.

Melanie Avalon: That's so exciting and then I have one other little announcement. It's a teaser announcement, but I think I'm launching a third podcast. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Listeners, stay tuned. I mean, I am. I should just say it, I am launching a third podcast. It's not going to be health related, so it's branching out and I'm very excited. And listeners, a lot of you guys know the cohost. Stay tuned. Get on my email list for the updates melanieavalon.com/emaillist. I am so excited about this. 

Vanessa Spina: What is it? Can you tease anything else about what it's about? Saying it's not health related.

Melanie Avalon: You know how I like going on all the rabbit holes and tangents about all the things and oftentimes they're not health related. It was inspired by that. So, it's going to be really fun, exciting topics, but not health related. Some might be health related depending. 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. I've always wanted to do that. I think I was telling you maybe a year or two ago that I wanted to start a podcast about living a beautiful life intentionally and designing your life. And whenever I think about it, it makes me really giddy and happy. But I'm scared to do it because I don't want it to turn into work, you know what I mean? But I also feel like I would just enjoy it a lot. But yeah, then it might become work. 

Melanie Avalon: I totally think you could find a way to do it where it wouldn't become work at the same time if it was focusing on one-- I guess it would depend how it manifested when you did it. But I can see how focusing on that one message or topic might make it. Yeah, it seems like work or--

Vanessa Spina: The commitment. When I first started my podcast, I was so scared to commit to something every week that I purposely didn't release the podcast on the same day [laughs] each week, I would just release it randomly. Because--

Melanie Avalon: All because you didn't want to be committed to having to have it released one day. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, and I didn't want the expectation to be there or like I heard other people on podcasts say if my podcast is late, people get upset, and I definitely get that. Sometimes I'll get messages from people like that, but it's okay. I finally realized it's okay. And it's much better to just be consistent. But I just laugh when I think back about, I thought I was being really strategic [laughs] or something that I was like, "This week it'll come out on Tuesday, but next week it'll be Friday and Thursday and Wednesday," I was, "No, no it's got to come out one day." It's kind of like a happy thought I have, you know, like in Hook or Peter Pan, like your happy thoughts, you are happy thoughts that make you feel like you're flying. It's one of those for me. So, I'm really happy for you that you are going to actually do it because I know you have a lot of interest, just like everyone else outside of just health. And you have such a talent and skill for podcasting and hosting and all of that acting, training and everything that you did definitely created you, like, this person who's amazing at hosting and podcasting. And I think any topic that is something that you're really passionate about or interested in, people will definitely want to listen. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, first of all, thank you. Quick, rapid-fire thoughts. One, last night I dreamed about Peter Pan, that I walked the plank. 

Vanessa Spina: What? 

Melanie Avalon: True story. Two, [laughs] I did a similar thing with my show. Okay, that's really funny about you [chuckles] not releasing on-- It's so interesting how that one little-- that seems like such a simple thing, like committing to releasing on a certain day. It's funny how just giving ourselves these small little commitments can have such a profound effect in our lives. Sorry, now I'm thinking I'm not going to go on tangents. Okay, I did something similar. I was really hesitant to have sponsors on my biohacking podcast for that same reason, which was if I have sponsors, then I'm committed. Then I have to always turn out an episode. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I did that for the first two years, I had no sponsors at all. There're no ads at all. Yeah, I felt it would add pressure and yeah, [chuckles] I just felt it would better to not have ads, and people would message me like, other podcasts would be like, "How do you not have ads?" And I was like, "I don't know. I just don't." [laughs] But I can see their perspective now.

Melanie Avalon: Third thing, the exciting thing about this one I want to do is each episode is going to be a different topic. And once I tell you, Vanessa, who I'm doing it with, you'll understand I'm doing it. I didn't tell you already, right? 

Vanessa Spina: You told me about an app. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Oh, yes. Oh, that I'm even more excited about, but I'm so excited about that. I can't even-- There might also be an app coming listeners, but stay tuned. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: I hope it was okay to say that. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh no, no, you can. Yes, definitely. Once you know the cohost, you'll understand, I'm really just doing it or we are just doing it for fun and we'll see how it goes. 

Vanessa Spina: That's so exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: Anything else or shall we jump in? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we can jump in. The last little thing I'm buzzing about is I officially put through, I guess you could say, the final order or the final everything for the second generation of the Tone this morning and it felt so good. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, congratulations. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Yeah, because now we have the actual date that they'll be ready, and it's looking like the end of September and then shipping. And I just spent a lot of time today updating the SKUs and the ISBN, like the barcodes and the new packaging. We just got done with that and just all that stuff I love. I love the journey [laughs] to the new product. Once it's out, it's also fun, but the best part is when you're in the creation mode and just seeing it all come together and it's also beautiful. And I just love creating biohacking products for women. There're just so many biohacking products out there that are designed visually, they're appealing to men, and I love creating things that are for us. I'm not saying that if you're a man that it's not for you, it's also for you. But I like creating things that are also feminine and beautiful and are still, like wellness tools or technology or whatever, because the technology doesn't have to be masculine all the time. It just tends to be. So, yeah. I'm really, really excited, but, yeah, we can jump [laughs] into questions. I'm ready. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, can we just reflect how can we just reflect on the poem Tech Duo's Inspiring Vision? [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait for that episode to come on because I want to listen to us laughing again. 

Melanie Avalon: For listeners who missed it, ChatGPT wrote the most beautiful poem about Vanessa Spina and Elon Musk titled Tech Duo's Inspiring Vision. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: It blew me away. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my God.

Vanessa Spina: I was really, really impressed. I was really amazed. And I might get it framed and put it in my office. 

Melanie Avalon: I really want you to. [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: Because every time I look at it, I'll start laughing. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so fun. I just love that it picked up on everything that you just said. It picked up on that and it incorporated that into the poem. 

Vanessa Spina: It's uncanny. It's like it read our minds and souls and everything. I don't even understand. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so cool. Yeah, awesome. Well, I really appreciate your appreciation of creation of entrepreneurship products and such, I love it. It's a rare trait in humanity, especially in women, I think. I think there are less female inventors and such. That's probably a stat. I'm not trying to be controversial. I think that's just a stat. 

Vanessa Spina: No, I think you're probably right. It's in the process of shifting more as more and more women are doing STEM and stuff. But I didn't do STEM but you don't have to do STEM to invent things either. You can just learn everything now with the Internet. You can learn anything. That's one of the things I'm the most thankful for in the world, is you can learn any skill, pretty much almost probably any skill in the world, except for, underwater welding or something just on the Internet. And even then, there's probably some course for that. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, underwater welding. Is that a thing? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Like welding with metals underwater? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And it actually came to mind because I think it was on a reality show that I was watching, and that's what one of the people did. Like, one of the suitors. He was like an underwater welder. And I was like, "Didn't know that was a thing." [chuckles] But apparently it is. 

Melanie Avalon: You might can learn it online. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. There's probably a course somewhere, but you can learn any skill. You can teach yourself anything, but maybe in a couple of decades, it'll start being more even. But people are always really surprised when I tell them what I do. So, yeah, I think you're probably right. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you lead with podcaster or do you lead with-- what do you lead with? 

Vanessa Spina: Sometimes it depends on the context and who I'm talking to. But I usually say that I create wellness tech products, and I'm an author and I podcast, and they come out in different orders depending on the context or if I think the person knows what podcasting is or doesn't, depending on who you're having conversation with. But I also feel like I have those sort of three roles, and they're not all equal, but they're all, like, my main roles. So, it's a lot, [laughs] it's like a mouthful. And I haven't found one way of describing it that, does all of it maybe I said entrepreneur, but I find that really cheugy when people say that. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like influencer, health influencer kind of embodies everything I do. But that word is like--

Vanessa Spina: It really has a negative connotation to it but you're absolutely right. That really encapsulates it. 

Melanie Avalon: Literally everything I'm doing is influencing people. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. But you're also one of the world's top six biohackers, so you could just say that [laughter] according to ChatGPT. 

Melanie Avalon: According to ChatGPT. Oh, my goodness. So many things, yes. Well, on that note, shall we answer some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: Let's do it. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a question from Jackie and this comes from Facebook. And Jackie says, "Why do many nutritionists/dietitians stand by IF not being healthy for your body, your hormones, etc.? And what do you say to them. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's a really good question. I know you definitely have things [laughs] to say about this. I think that it probably has to do with misinformation, bad information or bad facts that people have. We talk a lot about how there is this one mice study. It was a rodent study where I believe it was young mice that were baby mice practically, who were given this extreme fasting regime. And it was equivalent to a nine-year-old child fasting for every other month at a time. And it's one of the studies, I can't recall the name right now, but I talk about it a lot on my podcast and I've mentioned it before on here as well. But it's one of the studies that the media really tends to quote a lot, because in that study, when they were doing this aggressive fasting on what was equivalent to a young child, it had a negative effect on their reproductive hormones. 

So, it's one of the things that I think has imparted this sort of perception that fasting is really bad for women's hormones. And unfortunately, people don't always look further at what the study was exactly. And anyone fasting a child for a month at a time every other month, I'm sure it did a lot more than just affect the reproductive hormones. Like, I'm sure it had a lot of negative effects. Like children should not be fasting. No one really should be fasting for a month every other month, even an adult. So, to take that and extrapolate the results of that to anything that has the word fasting, like intermittent fasting, I personally prefer the term time restricted eating. It has less of a negative connotation, but we often use those terms interchangeably, especially when it comes to research studies. And I think that there're certain studies that just get undue amount of attention and it just creates this false perception. 

I've done so many episodes of my podcast where I just break down study after study showing the benefits for women, especially, who are in a situation where they need to have their hormones regulated or they need to improve their blood work or their cardiometabolic markers. And I think that another side of it, it may be the fact that if you are someone who is extremely low body fat or an athlete, then doing too much fasting or even just intermittent fasting or time restricted eating can also have negative effects, especially if you're a female athlete. They are the ones in the research who tend to lose their periods, that's obviously affecting their hormones. And they tend to have a lot of negative repercussions to doing things like fasting. Because as an athlete, you have to fuel your body really adequately and you have to feed yourself a lot because you're expending a lot of energy. 

So, there are certain situations where young children, athletes, people with extremely low body fat, those situations are probably contraindicated for a lot of different forms of fasting. But on the other hand, for people who need these kinds of interventions, who are overweight, morbidly obese, or just having metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, prediabetes, which, according to research, like somewhere close to 88% of Americans are not metabolically healthy. It's a huge chunk of the population that needs these kinds of strategies, interventions, and they're extremely helpful for all women's hormones in those kinds of situations. That's my opinion on why I think some nutritionists, dietitians have a negative perception of intermittent fasting. So, I think you really have to look at the context and the person and the exact situation, and then look at research that is not done on really like baby mice for [laughs] extremely long periods of time. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so glad you went that route because I agree so much. And the first thing I thought of is a completely different aspect. So, it's like we're covering all of it. So, the first thing I thought actually was the political history that led to the state of nutrition that we exist in today. I just think it's so saturated in politics and I really cultivated that and learned about it when I interviewed, I'll put a link in it to the show notes when I interviewed Marion Nestle. Did I tell you about that interview, Vanessa? She was so cool. I just looked up her Wikipedia. So, she's 86 years old and she's written so many books. Well, she's written a lot of books, including, I think her biggest one is called Food Politics – How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition and Health. I brought her on for her memoir that she had recently released, but in her book-- and she was so inspiring-- speaking of women doing things in the world. 

She was so inspiring because she was born in the 30s, so she was in college, you know in the 50s I guess, pursuing a career in the lab and actually as a scientist. And a lot of her memoir was about what that was like, being a woman in college pursuing that, but also being a mom. And just it's crazy some of the stories she tells about and she literally was given a grant, and when they gave it to her, they were like, "Yeah, we're just giving this to you because no men applied." [laughs] They literally told her that. And she talks about the differences in wages between the men and women and it's just a really cool story. But she dives deep in her books into the crazy political history of the food pyramid and the recommendations that we have today. And in particular, I learned a lot about the Dietetics Academy, and I don't want to disparage dietitians. I think that's amazing and I think there are a lot of great dietitians. I will just say, after reading her book, it really made me question some of the associations that lead to dietitians and things like that. And I really can't do justice in this very short overview. But it's all very interlocked with political incentives tied to agriculture and the food industry. And so many nutrition associations are tied to processed food and junk food companies.

So, she talks about the American Society for Nutrition partnering with Mars and Pepsi and all these really big companies. She talks about how also the American Society for Nutrition-- and I'm going to tie this back into the question, when they released their Smart Choice label, which was this whole big deal to show that food was, "healthy," the first thing that was labeled that was Fruit Loops, [laughs] which is just like really crazy. She talks about the Dietetics Academy and their relationship with Coca Cola and McDonald's. And point being, we've come to this place where because her question, Jackie's question, is about nutritionists and dietitians, that culture is not really founded on science or it's not really founded on health science as much as politics. And so whatever ideas have come to that, it's going to be whatever is best suiting the powerful interests that stand. And what that has been historically has been the food pyramid, has been eating multiple small meals per day. The concept of intermittent fasting is the concept of not eating, which is not in any service to any food industry producer [chuckles] at all. It's the antithesis of that actually. It just doesn't align. 

So, I think a lot of that goes into it after reading, because I read-- because I was bringing her on for her memoir, and I was so impressed with her that I wanted to read. I think I might have read five of her books. I read so much prepping for her. It really honestly changed the way I view the word nutritionist and the word dietitian. And again, I don't want to discredit. There are really good nutritions and dietitians out there. I just so often see, especially here's a good example. How often do you read articles in magazines online? And then there's this disclaimer at the end where it's like, talk with your nutritionist, talk with your dietitian. I feel like this is controversial. I don't really think they're saying that because they think nutritionist and the dietitian necessarily has the answer. I mean, they might, but it's more just a safety thing. It's all political-

Vanessa Spina: Liability.

Melanie Avalon: -liability. Yeah. I think a lot of that is going into that. So, for the two parter of what do you say to them? Well, first of all, nobody's making you work with a nutritionist or a dietitian, and nobody's making you work with a certain nutritionist or dietitian. So, if they're not supportive of your choices surrounding intermittent fasting and I want to make the disclaimer that you're not doing intermittent fasting while really using it as a mask for disordered eating. If it truly is intermittent fasting, getting your nutrition, getting your protein, doing it in a healthy way that supports your lifestyle and your nutritionist or your dietitian is against it, you don't have to work with that nutritionist or dietitian. So same with your doctor. You don't have to work. I mean, trust me, I understand. I have an HMO insurance plan where I can only work with certain doctors. And I know the hassle of trying to find a doctor you like and how difficult it can be to switch doctors and when all of your labs are with one person. So, I know how hard it is to find a new doctor and you don't have to work. You are hiring the doctor. They're not in charge of you. So, you get to choose who you work with. So that's, one is just maybe not work with this person, but two, if you do and you do want to and you do see that they're open to working with you, I bring in literal studies, like actual printed out studies on paper. I cannot tell you how many times I've done that. I just did the other day, emailed a doctor some studies, you can email them studies and talk to them about what you've learned. 

Vanessa Spina: Can I just say that's a litmus test for if you are working with someone that you want to be working with, is even if you just bring up different studies or bring up different research. If they have a knee jerk reaction and shut you down, or they say something egotistical like, "Well, I haven't read that study yet or blah, blah, blah" and they're closed off to it, then that may not be someone that you want to work with, but if you bring them studies or they're open, it doesn't take a lot just to be open and be like, "Oh, I would love to check those out or I'd be happy to look through that research for you." That's someone you want to be working with. Like whether it's a nutritionist or a physician, someone who can tell that you are genuinely looking at the research, which is what they do like doctors and nutritionists, dietitian, especially physicians are reading research all the time, so they should respond in a way that's very positive and open and yeah, I'll definitely check that out. Or they don't have to be over the moon about it, but just open and not close off to it. And that always for me is like, "Okay, this is a practitioner that I want to invest time with, and they're definitely listening to me and also open to looking at different research and not just like closed off or close minded." 

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. I'm so glad you said that. And also, I have two examples to share because I really have done this a lot. Also, I agree with what you said that how they initially receive it is so key and so telling. And even the doctor that I was working with recently where I did this, he was just so receptive that I was like, "This is great, even though I didn't think I wasn't sure if he was really going to be on the same page as me." I did learn something because I don't want to make this like anti-- I don't have any sort of anti-doctor stance here, which is not what I'm trying to communicate. I did learn something recently, though, that gave me so much more empathy for doctors, and it was that. So actually, the doctor that I was sending my studies over to, because I'm always trying to figure out my thyroid panel, which is wonky, long story short, and if we're listeners who are familiar with thyroid, this will make sense. If not, it might not. [chuckles] 

But basically, my thyroid hormones tend to be low and my TSH tends to be low. And the TSH is the pituitary hormone. It tells the thyroid to release hormone. So, it needs to be higher to indicate that you're not hypothyroid. Because when it's low, it basically seems like what it's saying is that the pituitary is saying, "Oh, we have too much thyroid hormone." It's a very simple, simplistic way of viewing the thyroid because it's not even a thyroid related-- it's a pituitary signaling molecule, not thyroid, which speaks to a lot of the reasons with thyroid panel interpretations today. But in any case, so my TSH is often low, which would indicate I'm hyperthyroid, but my thyroid hormones are low. But this makes sense because I'm on compounded thyroid hormone. Point being, doctors in the past have wanted to lower my thyroid medication because my TSH is low, even though my thyroid hormones are low, which would just make me hypothyroid, which just can't happen. 

That has been the response of conventional doctors and it's been really frustrating to me. And I'm like, "Why don't they get it? And I'll send them over studies? And it was just really frustrating. And then I was working with a holistic doctor in the past few weeks, actually, to do-- have you done ozone therapy, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: Like hyperbaric chamber? Or is this something different. 

Melanie Avalon: Like ozone gas into your body? Okay, I just actually got vaginal ozone therapy. I've never done that before. Apparently, it's really great for balancing, cleaning out, really optimizing your female health down there. So, I was, [laughs] sitting on the couch with my bag of ozone, and they were like, "Wear a mask so you don't breathe in the ozone." I was like, "This is like next level." I posted it on my story and got some interesting responses.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So always something--

Vanessa Spina: I love that you're just always trying things like that. It's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: I was scared, actually. It's so interesting how your body's response to I could feel my body, like the physical, I was scared to put it in me because I didn't know what it was, but I didn't feel it at all. It was fine. It was a great time. I just worked on my laptop on some notes, so why am I talking about that? Oh, so the doctor [chuckles] that prescribed it, she was a holistic doctor out of network, out of insurance, but she really gets the thyroid stuff. And she said that doctors legally, if they lower a patient's and I know we have so many listeners with hypothyroid issues. So, this is going to give you context if your doctor is being a little rigid with your lapse. I guess they can get in big trouble medically if they get reviewed and it's found out that they lowered a patient's thyroid medications while they had a suppressed TSH. And I was like, "Oh, that makes so much sense." That's why all these conventional doctors I've seen have been so resistant to addressing the issue differently. And I didn't realize that. And if that's just one example, I can't even imagine how many other examples where people have health issues and there are unknown laws and medical rules that we don't know where they would get in massive trouble if they do what we're asking them to do. So that's another context to bring in mind and also another argument for if you can afford it going outside of the conventional medical system where maybe they aren't quite bound to those legalities as much. 

Vanessa Spina: I totally agree with that. I mean, I think you have to prioritize where you spend your disposable income and you can spend it on a lot of different things. We're like one of those families that spends a lot of it on healthy food and nutrition because I think it pays dividends. It's just a really good return on investment, whereas there're a lot of other things that you could spend your money on outside of health that you won't really get returns from they'll just be like one-time things. So, yeah, I think it comes down also to how you prioritize things. And if you do have the ability, like you said, to do it, I think it's definitely worth it sometimes, especially if it's something that you will totally change your quality of life or the way you feel in your body. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. And actually, I'm going to make a recommendation. I mentioned them before on the podcast, but I'm just so obsessed with them and just talking about the rates and everything. They're so affordable for what they're doing, and it's because they want to make this all affordable. And they're in Atlanta, but they see patients virtually nationwide. So, you guys can all do a virtual consult. So, they're Elite Personalized Medicine, epmlife.com and if you tell them I sent you, they'll give you $100 off. And their entry thing is already really, really affordable. So, if you want, like, hormonal panels and figuring out what's going on, definitely check them out. I found them because I was doing a regenerative process that I was very excited about doing and I did it with them and I love them. And they actually referred me to the other practice where I got the vaginal ozone. 

Melanie Avalon: So yeah, did we answer her question. Sorry, I went on that tangent about doctors. 

Vanessa Spina: I think so. I think yeah, we can probably go to the next one. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Would you like to read from Andrea? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, Andrea on Facebook says, "I listened to today's episode where you talked about your new InsideTracker results and lower A1c after stopping eating cooked fruit and adjusting when you took berberine, wondering if you really needed to do both or if just one of those implementations would have done the trick. Maybe with the berberine, you could have had your pie (cooked blueberries) and eaten it too. [chuckles] Did you try testing the heated blueberries with a CGM, heated versus cold and then with/without berberine?"

Melanie Avalon: Andrea, first of all, I wish you were here so I could ask you how you pronounce your name. I always want to know with Andreas and Andreas, I love your question. Thank you for sending it in. Thank you for cultivating that sentence about you could have had your pie (cooked blueberries) and eaten it too. That was incredible [laughs] because I said probably on here and on Instagram that the cooked blueberries tasted like pie. So, I really appreciate the effort in that sentence. This is a great question. I'm so excited to talk about it. So, brief review for listeners who missed my story about this. My HbA1c, which is a marker of your-- it's a tentative marker of your blood sugar levels over three months. It's your glycated hemoglobin. A normal HbA1c is below 5.7%. And then if you have 5.7 to 6.4, that's prediabetes, and then 6.5 or more indicates diabetes. And so, when I started cooking-- so I eat as listeners know, I eat pounds and pounds of fruit every night in the context of a high protein, low fat diet. And my HbA1c is usually around 5. Vanessa, who has a flatline on her CGM. Vanessa, what did you say yours normally is around--

Vanessa Spina: 4%. 

Melanie Avalon: 4% [laughs] [crosstalk] That's insane. Yeah. I do want to see your CGM, your graph. Shout out to NutriSense. If listeners would like to get a CGM, check out the ad for NutriSense in today's episode and go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the coupon code IFPODCAST to get $30 off to measure your blood sugar levels constantly for two weeks. Okay, so in any case, I started cooking my fruit and my HbA1c went up to 5.6, which is almost prediabetic and I freaked out. And I immediately stopped cooking my fruit and also started taking berberine before my meals. Prior to that, I was only taking it in the fast when I would wake up. So, this is a great question and I agree that I did change two variables. So how do I know if it was the fruit change or how do I know if it was the blueberries or both? And how do I know that maybe berberine alone might not have just addressed it enough. 

So, my thoughts are I am fairly certain the-- oh, and then did I test on the CGM? Okay, as much as I know it was most likely the fruit because that is the only dietary change I made. My HbA1c is not always 4 like Vanessa, but it is always usually 5. Very historically, I check it all the time with InsideTracker. It's never gone above 5-- I don't think 5.1. And so, to jump that much with that one change, I'm fairly certain it was the fruit. So going back, I'm fairly certain the fruit was involved. And then adding in the berberine, I don't normally do get 4.9. So, I feel like there was probably two things. A, your HbA1c is usually a three-month marker and this reversed in one month. B, it reversed to lower than I normally am as well. So, I think the combination of no longer cooking the fruit and adding in the berberine had a massive effect. 

To answer your actual questions, maybe I could have just had the berberine and had my cooked blueberries and eaten it too. I am so glad you're asking about this. So berberine is a plant compound that's been used for thousands of years by ayurvedic medicine, traditional Chinese medicine. There are so many studies on it. It was thrilling to create my version, my AvalonX, reading all the studies, I was blown away because originally, I thought it was really just for blood sugar control. There're a lot of studies comparing it to metformin, which is the go-to drug to reduce blood sugar levels. And it really does like in the studies, it typically always matches metformin for performance without a lot of metformin side effects, with additional health benefits as well. 

It has so many other health benefits. Cholesterol lowing effects, inflammation, gut health. It even activates AMPK, which is something that-- something like fasting activates, as well as calorie restriction and dieting and exercise that's a pathway in our body that helps with the repair process and supports longevity. So, it's a super cool supplement. I used to be a server for a very long time, for like five years in fine dining. And I had this memory that I will never forget, where I remember I was serving a table and it was time for dessert, and they were, like, all looking over the menu, and the guy was looking at the desserts. And then he made a comment about getting the cake or something, and he was like, "Well, good thing I can take my diabetes medicine." And that really stuck with me. [laughs] It really stuck with me because--

Vanessa Spina: I feel so sad.

Melanie Avalon: I know it did. It made me really, really sad because-- so metformin, diabetes medication, berberine, at least for me, the purpose is not to say eat all the things that are like, actually would be messing up your blood sugar level, but you're just helping combat it. That's not the purpose here. The purpose here is to further support health and in the context of everything that we're doing, help lower blood sugar levels because people struggle with it. It's not a get out of jail free card to eat all the cake. So, let's say as a thought experiment, let's say yes, let's say I could eat the cooked blueberries and take the berberine and it's all normal. So, on paper that would look good. I would wonder, though, what's going on behind the scenes that the berberine is combating. Basically, I don't know if I'm communicating this correctly. That would not be the mindset approach that I would want to have with this if I already knew that something historically was really, really raising my blood sugar. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts? I have other thoughts, but do you have any thoughts on that concept? 

Vanessa Spina: I've never done it. I know that some people do. I've seen even different researchers I admire doing experiments all the time. And that's what I was going to say to you before. I can't wait to do a new CGM cycle when I can do a bunch of experiments where I can learn things like maybe I'll find out. I can have a just ripe banana here and there. I always think of Cynthia when I think of a just ripe banana because I remember she has those sometimes on her workout days. I'm like, remember that there's research that shows that some people will react to bananas by having a huge blood glucose spike and other people don't at all. So, I'm curious to do those kinds of experiments. And I know there are people, like I said, who do experiments with different carbs and then they take a bunch of berberine or they take berberine when they have Sushi or it's like a regular-- And I think that's great for them. 

It's nothing I've personally ever done. I love that it's there for me with berberine and other supplements or drugs that are similar to that. I love that they exist to help people who cannot make those changes. But yeah, I agree. I don't think it's like a license to go and eat whatever you want and then just take something with it because you're not really going to get healthier that way, like you are just not. It's more so for me. I'm just glad that-- I know there are some people who will never be able to make certain changes and I'm glad that that stuff is there for them. But it's hard to speak to it because I just prefer to eat a certain way and not have to take anything. And it's just kind of the way that I approach everything. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that helped me clarify my thoughts. Thank you so much. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay, good. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: That was so helpful because I was trying to clarify my thoughts more. So basically, following a diet and a lifestyle that works for you, I think most people can benefit from adding in berberine to although Vanessa might go hypoglycemic, [laughter] like adding it in to further lower your blood sugar level. So, optimize what you're already doing, like it's a great way to optimize, a great way to get the other health benefits. And then also, like Vanessa said, if you have a one off or a time where you are having something that, you know, raises your blood sugar a little more, then maybe you up your berberine a little bit more in that context. I just wouldn't want to be in a state where, so me having this knowledge now that cooking my fruit raises my blood sugar substantially, I wouldn't want to be in a pattern of doing that every single day and combating it with berberine. 

I would rather not be doing that. So having a diet that does work for me and adding berberine to further optimize that diet. And speaking to that so I did do a round of my CGM after all of this and I didn't do it again heating the fruit because I probably should now. So, this was in the time period between-- so I got my result about 5.6 and then I was in my really intense no cooking, I put on a CGM immediately. I switched to frozen fruit, I added in the berberine, so it wasn't the time to try the heated fruit again because I was on damage control. I was on like, "Let's fix this." [chuckles] So now that I'm back at an HbA1c that I feel comfortable with, now is the time that I would be open to trying that one night and seeing what happens so stay tuned. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I want to know how it goes when you try that. That's a fun experiment. 

Melanie Avalon: I definitely recommend listeners those two resources though, getting a-- I really, honestly-- can you imagine, Vanessa, if every single person in the world-- if it was like part of education, where they had to wear CGM for two weeks, like how that would change the world? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh yeah, you would learn so much. Even people I'll never forget this one interview I heard with Peter Attia and he was like, I just didn't think that he was traveling in an airplane or something and he had this snack and he saw his blood sugar go crazy. And just visually seeing it made him suddenly realize the effect it was having on his body, whereas before he knew that it maybe was doing something. But there was something about actually seeing because we don't see how our bodies react normally to food. It's all happening inside us. So, when you have a visual, it can kind of snap you out of maybe a little bit of denial or something. So, I have a friend who's doing a CGM right now. I recommended NutriSense to her of course, it's the first time she does anything like this. And were just talking and she's like, "You know what advice do you have," and I'm like, "Just monitor your reactions." Keep a journal of when your blood glucose rises by more than 20 points after eating a certain food. And then you can go back and do experiments with those foods and see if you add some protein to it. Does it actually bring your blood glucose more normal instead of having these big excursions, like if you add some healthy fats, if you add some fiber and you can do experiments like going for walks after meals, that information is just so, so valuable. So yeah, I agree. If everyone could see how their body is reacting to what they're doing, I think it would really, definitely have a huge impact. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. I had one moment in one of the CGM courses that I did where I don't know why, but I got this massive craving. I think it was like triggered by-- it was probably emotional for childhood cereal. I hadn't had cereal and I don't even know. And I went and got one of those healthy, gluten free, all natural cereals and I ate it. And I don't remember what my blood sugar went to, but it was insane. And that image is like, in my head. And ever since then I'm like, "Oh, it's like, now I know what happens [laughs] if I have processed foods like that and you just don't realize it until you see it." So yeah, speaking of Peter Attia, [chuckles] I finally started his book. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, nice. My husband's cousin, who's here right now, she's reading it right now and she really liked it. 

Melanie Avalon: Have you read it? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't yet, no. Yeah, it's on my list. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm enjoying it thus far. I realized if I'm ever going to book him, I just need to read the book and try to cultivate the most epic of epic pitch emails [sigh] someday. 

Vanessa Spina: He did write back to you, though.

Melanie Avalon: I treasure his rejection. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: You're going to frame it? 

Melanie Avalon: [laughter] Yes. His rejection where he's like, "I personally loathe going on podcasts." [laughs] Something to that effect.

Vanessa Spina: Wow. Everything full circle to how we started this whole episode out in multiple ways. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: How perfect. [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: He's what celebrities, they're just like us. Dr. Peter Attia, he's just like us. He also doesn't like being on-- 

Melanie Avalon: He also doesn't like podcasts. [laughter] No, seriously, it's funny. I literally was so happy when I got that email. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, Peter Attia personally rejected me. I'm so happy." [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: It would be such a mix of thrill of like, "Oh, my God," did he really just write to like, he knows I exist and then being aww, but he's not coming on. But still at the end overall just being like, I don't care anyway. This is amazing. I feel the same way about Elon, maybe I should invite him on the podcast- [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Vanessa Spina: -and get rejected.

Melanie Avalon: Rejection. [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: And I know what I'm going to put in the subject line. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Tech Duo's Inspiring Vision. [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Maybe I should just send him the poem. 

Melanie Avalon: Please do. [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I'm sure he gets weirder stuff all the time. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, can you imagine? I can't even imagine. Let's manifest it. Let's manifest. Okay, Vanessa, let's manifest me, you, Peter, and Elon and your husband. [laughter] Oh, and Peter's wife. [laughter] Sorry. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Pete, he has mixed feelings about Elon you know. He likes him, but he also is unsure and also knows that I admire him a lot, so, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: He's keeping his eyes open. [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: He's got his eye on Elon. 

Melanie Avalon: He's watching you Elon. 

Vanessa Spina: It's funny, though, because you never know how sometimes you can get people on the podcast like Gretchen Rubin.

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Have you had her? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I had her on the podcast. It was, like, my biggest interview ever at the time. I think I was, like, two years into doing the podcast at the time. It was called Fast Keto. And she does low carb. So that was, like, my pitch to her. I was like, do you want to come on and talk about low carb? And that's mostly what we talked about. We also talked about her concepts and her books, but we talked about being an upholder, being an abstainer versus all these concepts that apply also to health and nutrition. And it was so much fun because she loves keto and low carb. So, she was also really enjoying talking to me about keto, and it was really fun. But you never know. If someone does keto, they might want to come on or if they do intermittent fasting you know--

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. That's how I felt with Gabor Mate. I was like, "I can't believe he's talking to me right now." [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Did you interview him? I remember Cynthia saying she had the most powerful episode of her podcast with him or something. 

Melanie Avalon: I did, yep. And it was similar to Cynthia. He was like, "Do you mind if we just kind of just ask you questions right now?" Like, we had, like, a therapy session. I was like, "Oh." I was like, "Oh, this is a moment." He thinks everything is trauma from childhood. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's right. That's right.

Melanie Avalon: So, there're a few people I want to reach out to that similar. It's like they seem unapproachable, but when I think about it more and more, I'm like, "You know what? I think I see ways in." Like, I could see how I could maybe get them on the show. I would love to get Bill Nye, The Science Guy. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I love him. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: That would be, like, the most exciting thing ever. 

Vanessa Spina: That would be actually, I bet he would do it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I should [chuckles]-- I think I had a crush on him before I knew what crushes were. 

Vanessa Spina: Aww. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: I'm pretty sure I did. Looking back at my five-year-old, six-year-old self, like, had a crush on Spock from Star Trek. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's funny. I could see that. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that note, anything from you before we go? This was so fun. 

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun, as always with you. It's just such a treat to hang out and to engage with listeners' amazing questions. I love them and yeah, I can't wait for the next one. 

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Well, I will talk to you next week. Oh, wow. I didn't even sign off. Okay, listeners, [laughter] like, in the moment. This is like being at the restaurant and just leaving the restaurant not paying for the check. [laughter]

So, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can also ask questions in my Facebook group. Although I'm going to emphasize because ever since I started saying that, I have started getting questions everywhere. People DM me on Instagram, on Facebook. I'm like, "Wait, no, pause. This was not the avenue." So, in the Facebook group as a public post, because if you DM me, you can DM me. Feel free to DM me, but I'm going to redirect you to post it in the Facebook group or to email questions@ifpodcast.com. And then the show notes for today's episode will be @ifpodcast.com/episode335. We will put links to everything that we talked about and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all of the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I just had the best time. Yeah, I can't wait for our next one. 

Melanie Avalon: I did too. I was thinking during it because normally we record two back-to-back and we're just doing one, I was like, "I want to record another one." [laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: I know, [crosstalk] totally. 

[laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: Well, we have to wait till next week. 

Melanie Avalon: It's a good problem to have. Well, I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Bye for now. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Sep 10

Episode 334: Protein Metabolism, Protein Fermentation, Bloating, Gut Bacteria, Beneficial Strains, Social Media, Resistant Starch, Insoluble Fiber, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 334 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

DANGER COFFEEGet 10% Off At melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

visit EPMlife.com to get $100 of when you mention Melanie sent you!

Listener Q&A: Lori - Can a high protein diet give you a distended belly?

FOOD SENSE GUIDEGet Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 334 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 334 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I am doing fabulously. [laughs] How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm wonderful. I do have a resource I would love to share with listeners. Like, I'm very excited about.

Vanessa Spina: I'm excited to hear.

Melanie Avalon: I had a really cool regenerative therapy treatment done that I was very excited about here in Atlanta. And it's something I've been looking forward to for a long time, like, in general, looking about getting it done. And so, I'm really excited to see how it goes. But in any case, the practice where I got it done, they are so cool. And I get questions all the time for recommendations for doctors. So, I haven't done anything beyond this one treatment that I did but they do all the things. They're functional medical practice. They do virtual as well, so anybody in any state can see them. And I am just blown away. So, I've become really good friends with one of the co-founders and I'm just blown away by what they offer and their prices are so affordable. I'm really shocked. And it's because the founder says that their goal is to really just make this accessible to people.

So, for example, their women's functional medical panel that you can get, because I think when you come in, basically, they do a comprehensive lab panel, a 1-hour medical visit, and you get a personalized treatment plan. It's just so affordable. And they're actually offering our listeners $100 off as well, which makes it even more affordable. But for example, with the comprehensive panel for women, it's CBC, CMP, estradiol, fasting insulin, love that, FSH and LH, homocysteine, RBC, magnesium, progesterone, reverse T3, free T3, total T3, free T4, total T4, total and free testosterone, sex hormone binding globulin, thyroid antibodies, TSH and vitamin D, which I just love that panel and the fact that you can get that and have a comprehensive overview with them and get a plan. And then the follow up visits are so affordable. I'm just so excited that they are offering this. So, that would be like online, anybody could do that. So, if you're trying to make [unintelligible 00:03:36] your labs or just get a marker of where you are with your health, I definitely recommend reaching out to them. They're called Elite Personalized Medicine. 

And I'll give more information. But then if you live in Atlanta, they have a lot of services. So, like I said, they have very cool regenerative medical therapies. I'm not going to say much more beyond that, but you can ask them [laughs] about that if you want more information. They have IV therapy, vitamin injections, health coaching. They have NAD shots, which are friends, well, I've been doing NAD shots now for months and months and I'm getting them done somewhere else. Their prices on NAD are much more affordable, so I might start going to them instead. But their focus, in their own words, is prevention of disease, early diagnosis, anti-aging, and maintaining and achieving optimal health. So, the link for them is Elite Personalized Medicine, epmlife.com. So, E-P-M for Elite Personalized Medicine emplife.com. And you can reach out to them, tell them I sent you, that you heard about them from this podcast and you'll get $100 off, which again, it's shockingly affordable because I see a lot of pricings on labs and [chuckles] they can be expensive. 

Just a resource for listeners. I think that's one good thing that did come out of COVID is the shift to more telemedicine. Like, people were doing it a little bit before, but then COVID just made everybody get their act together and really switch to TeleMed. Although, I think it did have a whole issue with I don't know if we talked about this already on the show. Yeah, I think we did. Like pain medication, prescriptions and things. A lot has come up with that. But beyond that, it's been a really great resource for people. 

Vanessa Spina: It definitely, I feel like, accelerated us into the future in terms of people taking their bricks-and-mortar business, putting it online in places that they wouldn't necessarily have needed to do that, but then suddenly the necessity was there, changing aspects of their business, remote workers, telehealth. It almost fast forwarded [chuckles] all of us into the future, I think a little bit and almost by like, I don't know what, five years or something, or maybe more in just a couple of years. It's really crazy how much it did. And like, we always had these technologies, but it gave us that push to have to kind of make the transition. It's really interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: It really, really did. And then parallel to that, everything with AI is just crazy. Do you follow all of that? I'm so fascinated. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm really fascinated. I want to learn as much as I can, as opposed to other things that have been announced that I'm just like, "Meta." Like, what is it, the metaverse? I'm just like, "Couldn't be less interested." [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Or, like, all the Twitter wars, all the Twitter stuff. It's not even called Twitter anymore, right? 

Vanessa Spina: No. It's called X. And my husband is like, he's all about Twitter, so I get a lot of updates on it, and I've been an Elon Musk fan for years. I was a fan way before people really talked about him at all. I was following his career from a young age, reading all that I could about him. I just thought he was such a fascinating human. I thought he was, like, the modern day--

Melanie Avalon: Was he your crush? 

Vanessa Spina: Little bit. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I can see how he's like--

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, Pete's like, I think it made him at first-- 

Melanie Avalon: Is he a hall pass? [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, probably. I mean, if I had to have one, my hall pass used to be Paul Rudd, but I think I have to officially change it to Elon. I mean, yeah, I've been a huge fan of his for years. I just think what he did to get us off, like, Russian rockets is just so amazing. So many of the things that he does is amazing. I just think he's like a modern day, like Thomas Newton or like Einstein, and to live in a time where we can see someone like that operating in the world but I also-- yeah, I find that and what he's doing interesting. And he's kind of been warning people for a long time about AI, but at some point, he was like, "All right, nobody's listening to me." [laughs] So, I think he's trying to sort of get ahead of it in a sense of like, "Well, it's inevitable, so I may as well kind of create one." I think it's really interesting, and it seems like we're in the start of a new revolution. Like, we had the printing press revolution and the computer revolution, information revolution, internet revolution, and it seems like we're in maybe now the start of the AI revolution. I don't know if I'm ready for it, but [laughs] it's like, you got to kind of get on it, I guess, and learn as much as possible about it and I think try to see the good in it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you play with ChatGPT? 

Vanessa Spina: I don't. I've heard about it enough from you and my family and other friends, and I'm sure at some point I will, but I just keep hearing I think when you and I even talked about one episode that it's not super accurate yet, so I'm just, like, waiting for a version that's really reliable. But if something comes up where I have-- I think that people that do work for me, some different kinds of work for me, they might be using it already, [laughs] so I haven't directly used it myself, but maybe when there's a version that people are happier with, I will. 

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't have the most recent stuff, and then I just am so concerned because it just gives me wrong answers on things, but my favorite thing to do is to have it write poems about me and my crushes. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God, [laughs] that's the cutest. 

Melanie Avalon: It'll write the cutest-- as long as your crush is somebody well known. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: Should I have it write some fiction about poem about Elon and I or what? [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have it write-- Oh yeah, wait, I'm going to have it write-- Okay, I'm going to do this right now. Okay, I'm going to say write a poem, not okay-- Write a poem about Vanessa Spina,-

Vanessa Spina: Don't listen to this episode, Pete. [laughter] 

Melanie Avalon: -I'm so excited, I'm so excited and Elon Musk. Should we tell it we want it to be romantic or do you think it will go that route? 

Vanessa Spina: Let's just see what it does. I don't know. Maybe we'll just be like besties. I'd just love to hang out with him. 

Melanie Avalon: Here we go, ready? Here we go. I'm going to read this to you three paragraphs. The title of this poem is [laughs] I'm back, I'm back This is not where I thought this podcast is going to go, but I love it. I'm back, I'm back. Okay. The title of this poem is Tech Duo's Inspiring Vision. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Can't even read it, I'm so happy right now. Okay, bringing it back. 

Vanessa Spina: Just the title made my day.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know, I know. Okay, In realms of tech and space they tread. Vanessa Spina, Elon Musk ahead. She was knowledge, keto's queen. He, a visionary dreamer, keen. Vanessa's wisdom on health she shares. Keto insights showing how she cares. Elon's mind soars beyond the sky. Mars bound visions aiming high. Their paths converge in realms unknown. Health and cosmos seeds they've sown. Two souls with passions unconfined. Inspiring hearts and sparking minds.

Vanessa Spina: Are you kidding me? [laughs] That is unreal. 

Melanie Avalon: Wasn't that amazing? 

Vanessa Spina: I am, like, speechless. I'm actually speechless. 

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Vanessa Spina: I think I need a copy of that. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. I'll send it to you right now. Don't worry, I'm copying it for you. 

Vanessa Spina: You know what's funny is Elon used to do keto. He's dabbled with it over the years, which doesn't really surprise me because when I read his first biography, we were-- was it like maybe seven or eight years ago, the interviewer starts out the book. He's at a restaurant with him and he's like, eating this weird meal and he's like, it's called the ketogenic diet. And I was like, I got goosebumps, like, all over my body, I was like are you kidding me, like what-- Of course, he does keto. But I know he's gone on and off it. That was insane, like, maybe I need to start--

Melanie Avalon: I know. You can have it write stories about you, like fan fiction. 

Vanessa Spina: I know you looked up the top six biohackers in the world and it said Melanie Avalon, which was amazing. I know that you use it for your brother's wedding speech. I know you use it for product descriptions or looking up studies--

Melanie Avalon: I was using it to till-- I would have it write science pages on things and then I would go fact check it. And that's where I got really worried because it would be like, in this study, it found this and then I would try to go find the study. I couldn't find it. And then I'd be like, "Can you please send me that study?" And it'd be like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I was actually wrong." 

Vanessa Spina: I remember you told me so I was like, "How can you trust it?" 

Melanie Avalon: You can't, but you can trust it with its poems. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm keeping this forever. 

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that amazing? 

Vanessa Spina: I didn't know it could write poetry. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I know, it's talented, I tell you. And when you've got a crush, you just put in that crush and it just writes the things and you're like. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure you've gotten some. I want you to read the other ones, but I won't ask you to do that on air. But who's your like, if you had a hall pass, who would it be? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, Johnny Depp was always my-- yeah. 

Vanessa Spina: So, did you watch the whole court case and everything? Were you mesmerized? [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I lost, like, weeks of time. [laughs] This is awful. Literally, I would just play it, like, live because it was streaming live.

Vanessa Spina: Wow. I mean, that was one sordid tale. 

Melanie Avalon: I want to have him on the show for an episode on the Mandela Effect. I'm going to put that out to the universe. 

Vanessa Spina: No, the number of tangents that you would go on with him, his mind. He says that his brain feels like he's having explosions, continuous explosions in his brain constantly. Like, his brain is so active and powerful. 

Melanie Avalon: When I was a server at Ruth's Chris Steak House in Beverly Hills. 

Vanessa Spina: My favorite steak house. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? 

Vanessa Spina: Um-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: That was my first-- I had one serving job before that, but that was my first actual serving job. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God. Maybe you can answer my questions about what they're doing with the steaks. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, of course I can.

Vanessa Spina: Because I've asked them [laughs] because no steak. I'm like, they're dipping it in butter. There's definitely a layer of butter on top I know that. But every time I ask them, they're like, "There's this rotating fire grill that goes to like 1000 degrees or something." 

Melanie Avalon: It's coming back to me. It's like the steaks in the hot plates with salt, pepper, butter, and parsley. And they take it from the super, super hot thing and put it onto the plate. And it's a little bit stressful as a server. 

Vanessa Spina: I remember just like so many times-- every time we go there, I'm like, "So tell me again about [laughs] this oven." And they're like, "It's like this vertical oven with these panels and it's like a thousand degrees," and then I'm like "Yeah, I just can't replicate it." I've tried to replicate it at home, but it just is so good there. 

Melanie Avalon: Man, if you had known me back in the day, I could have brought you back in the kitchen. You could have had a kitchen tour. Elon Musk was there one day. 

Vanessa Spina: What? When you were working there? 

Melanie Avalon: It was Elon Musk. It was at one table and it was like 20 people. And it was Elon Musk and a lot of other celebrities. 

Vanessa Spina: It's crazy, because when I first started following him, he was just this Silicon Valley entrepreneur and he's become an A-list celebrity. [laughs] It's crazy. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This was a while ago, so it was before he was super famous. But he was famous enough because I wasn't the server on the table. But yeah, apparently, they tipped the servers like, $1,000. Amazing, yeah. So-- 

Vanessa Spina: Of course, he's generous as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Of course. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: Big fan here. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. 

Vanessa Spina: Did you say your hall pass was oh, Johnny Depp? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Probably Johnny, Johnny Depp. Yes. 

Vanessa Spina: He's still number. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Yeah, because I really had to think about that, I mean, because I have my number one in my mind right now. But it's not like that's like, my crush, but my hall pass, my perpetual hall pass is probably Johnny Depp.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I thought you would have named a scientist or like a I don't know--. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Peter Attia. Oh, wait, he has a wife. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: True. Yeah, but hall passes are like fantasy. 

Melanie Avalon: I do have a crush on Peter Attia. I'm just putting that out there. 

Vanessa Spina: And Harry Styles. 

Melanie Avalon: Not Harry Styles. I know he dressed up like Harry Styles. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's what, okay. It wasn't Harry Styles. It was just dressing like him. 

Melanie Avalon: He dressed up like him for the Taylor Swift concert. [sigh] [laughs] I can't, I got to find my perfect man who is like all of that and also wants to go to the Taylor Swift concert. 

Vanessa Spina: If we're living in a simulation, you just have to dream him up and he'll manifest. 

Melanie Avalon: He'll manifest. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Just keep writing those poems. [laughs] Put them under your pillow. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. [laughs] For a while, it was Jack Dorsey. Because I listened to an episode of him on something and he literally follows my lifestyle. Well, a little bit. He literally-- he told his lifestyle. And it was let me just tell you, he was like, "I wake up, I'm fasting." Then he's like, "Fasting some more." And then he goes and does, like, cold therapy. And then he does all of his work. And then at night, he said he eats, like, a steak, wine, and blueberries. I was like, "This is my man." 

Vanessa Spina: Apparently, he wrote a comment to Mark Zuckerberg, that was pretty passive aggressive or maybe just aggressive, [laughs] passive aggressive. I think, Mark Zuckerberg, he said he tweeted something and Jack Dorsey wrote back, like, "Too soon, Mark or something." [laughs] Because he was, like, kind of upset, I guess, that he started the Threads. Are you using Threads? 

Melanie Avalon: I saw that the other day. No, I'm not. Are you? 

Vanessa Spina: So, I was somewhat intrigued initially because I'm on Twitter. I don't really like Twitter. I like it more since Elon took the helm. But I don't really like it, I feel like it's very aggressive. I was actually bullied on there once by these two guys. 

Melanie Avalon: Really? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was really upsetting. These two guys were coming at me about keto or something, and they were like teaming up and tweeting all this stuff. It was very upsetting, I never really had an interaction like that before, but anyway, aside from that, it just feels like people are just like I think Tim Ferriss said this once. "It's like you walk into Twitter and it's like people throwing bottles at your head." Which I don't really feel like that, but it just feels very angry and hostile there. And then people are just, sharing their opinions, putting them out into the universe. Just like so much information. I just don't vibe with it. [laughs] It's not my vibe. I've gone through phases where I use it anyways. I was like, "Okay, maybe Threads. Maybe I'll like it more." And because I don't spend much time on Twitter, I have like 10,000 followers, I think, on there or something like that. And with Threads, they were like, saying that initially you could take your Instagram following over to Threads. 

So, then I was like, "Oh, well, if I had the same amount of followers on Threads, then that would be like, I would have a Twitter with all these followers. It would be worth my time to put stuff on there." And the last thing I need is like another app. [laughs] But then it's like, they initially announced that you would be getting your following, but then it didn't quite work out that way. And then I would open it and it would have me following all these people that I didn't follow. So, then they were like, "Well, we're now working on ways to bring your followers over." It's like every time I log into it, I have more followers on there, but it's like a fraction of what I have on Instagram, so I just don't see the point. 

And someone I listened to on a podcast made a really good point about it because a lot of people have been talking about how there was this initial spike in interest and then it just kind of died off. And it's because people who use Instagram like the format of Instagram, so what they should have done is incorporated it into Instagram. So, when you have your feed, you have like, Instagram posts, and then some of them are like the tweet format, and then it would be integrated in that app and you wouldn't have to go to another app. You would just have it in there. And I'm like, "That would have made so much more sense than having a different app." I just can't be bothered unless there's a huge incentive, like, having all of my followers on there. Then it would be worth me sharing the information that I share. But as of right now, I'm like, "I'm just going to keep doing it on Instagram." That's the main place that I post stuff. 

Melanie Avalon: This is like where you go on the Instagram profile and it's like a little hashtag thing, like it's on your main profile. I thought that was a direct messenger thing this whole time. I didn't realize it was like Twitter. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's like if you open it up, it looks pretty much like Twitter. 

Melanie Avalon: It uses your phone number, right? 

Vanessa Spina: It doesn't use my number, but it basically looks just like Twitter, but it's Threads. I have like 7000 people following me on there, but it's like--

Melanie Avalon: Is it. The little @ symbol at the top by their name? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't realize it was like Twitter.

Vanessa Spina: No and I think what happened is some people were upset that Elon took over Twitter. So, this is like the alternative of setting up a non-Elon controlled Twitter. 

Melanie Avalon: Right now, it's the number one social networking app. 

Vanessa Spina: I think there was a lot of initial interest, but most people that I talked to say that after first week or two, they kind of forgot about it. I haven't really been checking it, except I'll go in there sometimes to see like have they migrated all my followers over? And I think they're not able to really do that. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you think I should wait then until maybe--

Vanessa Spina: No, you could do it anytime and you could see what you end up with. 

Melanie Avalon: Like, you don't think that maybe they'll fix it and then it's like if you start later, you'll get everybody from the get go. 

Vanessa Spina: I don't think so, because the way that they're doing it is every new person that joins. When they set up their profile, they say, "Would you like to automatically follow everyone that you follow on Instagram?" And if they click yes, then you get them as a follower, but if they don't, then you don't. So, it's kind of hit or miss, depending on who amongst your followers are joining Threads and then among them are selecting, "Yes" to that or going out of their way to follow you. As long as I still have more followers on Twitter, I still have like which I had no incentive to really use until now. The main thing that I use Twitter for is actually for podcast guests. Because sometimes an easier way to just hit up certain scientists or physicians or people that I want to talk to than an email or like I've gone the email route and I didn't get through because they're just not responding or they're in the lab or whatever but they'll respond to a tweet, so [chuckles] that's like the main reason I use it. But other than that-- but it's not great because then I forget to check. [laughs] That happened to me when I was in Denver and I had this one guest who was like, "Hey, I can come on today." And then I didn't check it for like two weeks and I was like, "Oops." [laughs] And then I checked back and they were like, "Oh, I'm back at Harvard now, so I can't, [laughs] next year."

Melanie Avalon: And then it never occurred to me to use it, to reach out to people. I think the last time I got on it, I literally spent forever. It was when Gary Taubes--, when I aired my Gary Taubes episode and he tweeted about it, I was like, "Well, I got to get on Twitter now. I got to tweet something. I got to retweet the tweet." Otherwise, I never really go there.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I had a phase where I enjoyed it a bit, but I find Instagram just way happier, [laughs] way just a better vibe overall.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I know I need to be on TikTok but I just don't want to do other-- just energetically.

Vanessa Spina: I did not join TikTok intentionally. And I also think that there's a good chance that it will be banned because it's one of the only political issues that both sides agree on, that it should be banned. And it makes sense, I can see why they would want it to, because it's a Chinese controlled app that's operating in the US. And China would never allow an American owned app to be operating within their population so, and both conservatives and Democrats agree [laughs] that it's probably a security risk. And I'm surprised it actually hasn't been banned yet. Maybe it won't. I know a lot of people love it, but yeah, I never really got into it. And the longer time has passed, the more I'm like, "What's the point if it gets banned and you spend all that time building up something there and it just gets banned?" So, we'll see what happens. Maybe it won't. Maybe it will. 

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking of paying somebody to just repurpose my Instagram content and just get it going. I just know if I do, then I'll go in and I'll want to check and I just don't want another thing. I just got Telegram yesterday because I wanted to get added to some Austin groups since I'm moving to Austin. 

Vanessa Spina: Are you officially?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Vanessa Spina: When? 

Melanie Avalon: My lease is up in the spring, so I think I'm probably going to take a trip, hopefully knock on wood in the fall and look at apartments and teaser for the audience. I'm hoping I might get to interview Dave Asprey in person in Austin when I go to look at apartments. So that would be super exciting for this show. So, send me actually-- glad I'm saying this. Send me questions, if you have questions for him because we're going to do a listener Q&A, possibly, in real life. I've never done-- Would you believe I've never done an in-person podcast? Have you done an in-person podcast? 

Vanessa Spina: I was just thinking [laughs] if I ever have. I don't think I have. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm not going to know what to do. Like, where do I look? What do I do? 

Vanessa Spina: It's funny, because I noticed that most people who do in person podcasts have props. They have all the podcasts, like paraphernalia. So maybe if you have stuff like that, then you'll have, like, props. 

Melanie Avalon: He said there's some good studios and we can rent a studio. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that would be so fun. You have to do that.

Melanie Avalon: It's a lot to deal with. So, send questions, listeners, to questions@ifpodcast.com for Dave Asprey, anything about fasting or his new Danger Coffee or the conference or biohacking, all the things.

Vanessa Spina: That'll be an exciting one. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. On that note, shall we answer [laughs] some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited about this first question. 

Vanessa Spina: We have a question from Lori that comes to us on Facebook. "I have been having issues with bloating. I don't have any GI issues or other symptoms and I have been trying to cut out dairy thinking all the cottage cheese I was eating for more protein was the problem. Can a high-protein diet give you a distended belly? It seems to have been a frequent problem distended abdomen/bloating since hitting my protein macros of 100 to 125 grams." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Lori, I am so excited about this question. I went down the rabbit hole. So, it's interesting because I do remember hearing every now and then-- I think Robb Wolf, every now and then will mention how protein can be fermented and actually how it can be fermented to create short-chain fatty acids, which we want to get from fiber, which sounds like a great benefit. Like, "Oh, we can get it from protein." However, that sounds like in the fermentation role of protein, that's probably the only good thing coming from that, because there's been quite a few studies on protein fermentation in the gut. And yes, I have a lot to say so before you jump to conclusions, being worried about protein fermenting, it's going to be okay. But the potentially toxic metabolites, so they include ammonia, amines, phenols, and sulfides. And they've been linked to a lot of potentially problematic issues like bowel diseases, colorectal cancer, ulcerative colitis as well as just bloating like Lori was talking about and GI distress. 

And so, what is going on there in addition to those metabolites? And this is ironic, because now I'm looking at another study, and it's talking about how excess protein can lead to decreased short-chain fatty acid production. So maybe sometimes it creates short-chain fatty acids, maybe sometimes it leads to less. But in general, it can potentially have a proinflammatory microbiotic profile. Okay, the GI tract, we have the stomach, the small intestine, the large intestine. The issue arises when protein reaches the large intestine and isn't getting fully absorbed the way it should be. So, it's estimated that in the normal population, around 6 to 18 g of protein reaches the large intestine daily. That's mostly from what you're eating. A small part of it is actually endogenously created so created yourself and that ranges. So, people on almost protein free diets, they'll still get around 3 grams that might reach the large intestine. If you're on a vegan diet, the average is around 16 grams. That will reach the large intestine. 

If you're on a moderately high protein intake, which they call 16% of total energy, which for me, that would be very low protein, that's around 17 grams that might reach down there. And basically, what happens-- For the processing of protein in the large intestine, there're two ways that it's metabolized. So, the first thing is that it undergoes proteolysis by two different things, by the gut microbiome primarily and then a little bit by pancreatic proteases. So, compounds created by the pancreas that break down protein, those are actually metabolizing and breaking down some protein in the large intestine as well. So, it's breaking down these proteins into smaller amino acids. And then, interestingly, those amino acids can be incorporated by the body structurally or they can actually be used and incorporated by the gut microbiome.

And then the second thing that can happen to protein metabolism down there and this is where the issues come in, is it can be fermented to produce gases. So, you can produce H2, CH4, CO2, H2S, see and now it's saying short-chain fatty acids. So that's interesting. It can create branched-chain fatty acids. And then, like I mentioned before, ammonia, amines, and phenolic compounds, and also compounds related to nitric oxide. Okay, so the potential harmful effect or the issues that you experience is probably directly related to how much. So, if there's not an excess, you don't have to worry about this. But if there is an excess that's happening, then you do have to possibly worry about these metabolites being created. And so, there's been quite a few studies on how it affects the gut bacteria and it might have a potentially negative effect on the gut bacteria down there. So, one study found that it looked at high versus normal protein diets for six weeks. And while it didn't affect a lot of the abundance of big populations, it did lower bifidobacteria, which is often thought of as a "good bacteria." 

Although, interestingly, in these studies, the amount of carbs alongside the protein was sometimes different. So, they said, "It's hard to know what's doing what. Is it the carbs? Is it the lack of carbs? Is it the protein? What is the main source here?" But there was another study, people on low-carb, high-protein diets, and they saw a significant decrease in the numbers of different populations of butyrate-producing bacteria. And as we know well, I'm saying that, like, it's common knowledge, butyrate-producing bacteria is something that we want because butyrate is a very beneficial fatty acid for the colon. And the reason this happens is that the large intestine, the bacteria there, they actually are obligate protein fermenters. So, their nutrient source is basically fermenting protein. So that's why this can happen. So have no fear though. There are ways to address this. So, there's been a few studies on adding in specific sources of carbs that can actually potentially help mitigate this effect. So, a high intake of resistant starch, something called arabinoxylan, I'm not actually sure what that is and inulin pairing that with protein had a beneficial effect on the ammonia and the nitrogen levels. 

But then another study, interestingly enough, when they added resistant starch, they didn't see a change. It seems to because with the resistant starch specifically, a few studies showed a beneficial effect, like it really helped. Some didn't find a change. Same with insoluble fiber. Some studies found that it helped, some didn't. And just reading through it all, what it seemed like is that it's very individual and there's a lot of factors going into play. Some of these carbs that you might add, so these non-starch polysaccharide, so, like a fibrous-type carb, what really matters is if it's actually making its way down to large intestine. So, some of the carbs, if they're absorbed and metabolized too far up, they might not actually reach the large intestine. So, they might not be able to create this beneficial effect of mitigating the protein issues. So, it really matters when you're taking in the fiber, is it going in all the way and is it reaching the large intestine and is it helping with that inflammatory profile? 

On the flipside, some studies have found that it makes it worse. So, they did a rat study, and they added pectin, which is a type of fiber, and they found that actually made more fermentation of protein. Basically, it's all over the place. Oh, this is really interesting. So, one of the mechanisms of action like why this might be working with the carbs when it does work, is that the carbs can encourage the bacteria to ferment the carbs and the bacteria proliferate, so it increases more bacteria in your large intestine. And then those bacteria actually need amino acids and nitrogen. So, then they synthesize the extra protein rather than fermenting it, which I know sounds pretty similar, but basically there's the potential for, by supporting the gut bacteria with carbs and fiber for them to better deal with the protein load. And this is something actually called the nitrogen sink. So, the conclusion of this one review that I was looking at everything, they did conclude that modifying, like, the best ways to deal with GI distress from excess protein is probably to modify the actual amount of protein, which I know is the antithesis of what we talk about a lot, because basically they're saying reduce your protein intake.

Secondly, the type of amino acids. So, it's primarily the sulfurous amino acids like methionine and cysteine that create this issue. And those are found higher in animal products. So, they're recommending more plant-based protein might help with this. Although interestingly, I think it's very N of 1, because I digest animal proteins so well and when I have plant-based proteins, it does not go so well for me. So, I think you really have to know how you react. And then the third option is they do suggest-- even after they talked about studies showing conflicting findings, they do suggest adding fermentable carbohydrates to help shift that bacteria activity from fermenting the protein to metabolizing the protein and using the protein. This is interesting, so casein in particular might be a problematic protein for bloating related to all of this. And I know Lori was saying that she was having dairy and experiencing this issue. So that might be something that's going on. Lori, you might want to try you're already trying to cut out the dairy, so maybe this will be the final push to maybe stick to non-dairy and see if that helps.

So, my suggestions again, this journal article is suggesting to cut down on protein, but I wouldn't really suggest that. I would suggest a few things maintaining your total protein, but maybe either having a longer window or having it not all in one large bolus and then really supporting digestion of that protein so that hopefully you can digest more of it higher up in the system and it won't be reaching the large intestine. So, I would definitely try out maybe HCl and digestive enzymes to help with that. And by the way, teaser, I do plan down the road to launch a line of HCl and digestive enzymes and I'm so excited. But in the meantime, I personally use right now Pure Encapsulations, their digestive enzymes and their HCl. So that's something you might want to try. And then you could try adding in carbs that work for you, fibrous carbs. Again, resistant starch might be a thing that works, although for me, resistant starch makes me so bloated and gassy. So, it really is individual and N of 1. You could just try different vegetables or different carbs with the protein and see if that helps mitigate the issues. 

And then just as one last tangent I mentioned earlier, nitric oxide, I hope I did call it nitrous oxide earlier which I might have. I love nitrous oxide, but that is something different. So, something that might be going on is that nitric oxide is created from bacteria, from dietary nitrites and that can produce a gas that can be problematic. And when we have excess protein down there, what can happen interestingly is that nitric oxide can have a signaling effect where it interacts with that protein fermentation and actually makes it worse. So that's really interesting. But they have found that changing from red meat to white meat like chicken or fish can potentially reduce the availability of those nitrites in the colon, which are the precursors with the bacteria for that nitric oxide fermentation or formation. So that's something else you could try is if you're having red meat, and I'm a huge fan of red meat, and it's so nutritious and nutrient rich, but it is something that you could play with, is maybe trying more white meats and fish. Yeah, so that was a lot of information. Vanessa, do you have thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: That was so incredibly thorough and amazing. [laughs] I love that you dived so deep on the research as you always do and found it really, really interesting and insightful. So, it sounds like the takeaway is what I was going to reply, I guess, is that if you are feeling bloated, I would just try to eat less protein and see what amounts, like, using a tracker, we often do this to find the carb threshold, the protein threshold for getting into ketosis. So, if you're doing like 120 g a day, try 110, try 100, try 80. But the other thing I would say is, are you eating it all at one sitting? Because that could be the issue as well, because there's only so much protein that your body will use to make new proteins and then the rest will be converted to glucose. Like, the ratio is about 60 g out of every 100 I believe is converted to glucose, according to Dr. Don Layman. So, if you're eating 100 g at one sitting, it could just be a lot in terms of the digestive acids and the digestive-- sort of the pH that's needed for that much protein at one sitting. 

Like, if you were to break it up a little bit into two or three meals, it probably would result in a lot less bloating. And I think that it can happen where if people are doing one meal a day at times, and then they're sitting and having one whole meal with that much protein at one sitting, I wouldn't be surprised if someone would be bloated if they haven't sort of built up to that amount over time. I love that you brought up the digestive enzymes, HCl can definitely help with that as well. But my biggest suggestion would be just to change the amount, unless it is what you are eating with the protein. Like, could it be something else you are consuming with the protein that is contributing to the bloating? I would be far more likely to think that it would be like fibrous foods that's causing that. So, I always recommend an elimination diet if you're having a lot of bloating. I did one and I did carnivore for 30 days and then I went back and reintroduced all of the vegetables that I liked and I discovered which ones really bloated me. And it was such amazing information because once I figured that out by reintroducing each one one at a time, I figured out that all the cruciferous vegetables and especially broccoli, cabbage and cauliflower can really bloat me. And so, once I cut those out, I just didn't have bloating issues anymore. So, it can be as simple as that. 

There could just be one certain-- especially fibrous food they can be pretty difficult to digest and a lot of fermentation can occur. So, I would just put a question there. Is it necessarily the protein or is it something else that you're eating with the protein? Unless you're doing carnivore and all you're eating is like protein, you're not having anything else, any carbohydrate or any fiber with it, then it could just be the protein amount. So, I guess you kind of have to play with it. But I'd love to hear back from you on what you figured out and what you tried. And it sounds like from all the research that Melanie went through, that it really just comes down to the amount that's being consumed. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It really comes down to the amount that's reaching the large intestine, which we would think typically correlates to what's being consumed.? But then, like I was saying, Vanessa was just saying, there's so much contextual other food around that that I just think it's important to look, know everything that you're eating. I'll put out a resource for listeners. It's funny, people always ask me all the time, "Why do I eat so many cucumbers?" And it's primarily for this reason that's the really fibrous, hydrating, watery, bulk vegetable that I can add with my meal that I digest so well. And that's just why I eat so much of it. And I find that actually helps me digest the protein more. Love my cucumbers, but a resource for listeners. You can get my app Food Sense Guide and get it now friends, because you want to get grandfathered in, because I'm probably going to be making some really big updates and changes to it and changing the system. So, get grandfathered in now, [laughs] like the way it is now. It's a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods and it has 11 potentially problematic compounds that you may be reacting to. By looking at that, you can kind of see what you're eating. And if you're having issues with foods, you can look for trends. If you find that certain foods are making you bloated, you could see what compounds are those high in and it can be really helpful for that. And it does have FODMAPs. And for me, a low FODMAP diet is a game changer for bloating. I thought about it, because Vanessa, when you're talking about the ones that you react like, those are all pretty high FODMAP foods. 

Vanessa Spina: Such a good point. 

Melanie Avalon: So, the link for that is melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide, and it is often a top app on Apple Podcast or in the App Store, which is very exciting. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: It blows my mind, really, honestly, because it's often top 10 for all food and drinks apps. When you think about it, like, how many food and drinks apps there are or like there could be. 

Vanessa Spina: Got to be millions. 

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that crazy? Blows my mind. I'm really glad it's helping people. So yeah. Wow. We went on all the tangents on today's episode. 

Vanessa Spina: I know. It was like Elon to Ruth's Chris Steak, [laughs] poetry with AI and then protein, then bloating. I mean, like, yeah, real variety of topics today, but I had so much fun. I really enjoy all of our episodes so much and I love the questions so much. I love talking about fasting and protein and digestion and all the research. So, I just enjoyed the episode so much.

Melanie Avalon: I did too. And I'll give the link again for listeners if they would like to find a holistic health practitioner and run labs. I really love Elite Personalized Medicine. So that's epmlife.com. Tell them I sent you or that you heard about them on this podcast and you'll get $100 off and yeah. Okay, anything from you, Vanessa, before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: I think that was everything. Yeah, I can't wait for the next episode, as always, and look forward to next week's questions and being back here with you again. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay, talk to you soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Sep 03

Episode 333: Tone Device Gen 2, Measuring Breath Ketones, Ketosis, Fat Loss, Muscle Sparing, Protein Recipes, The Mandela Effect, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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Listener Q&A: Niki - Could or should I increase my protein intake on the other days?

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TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 333 “Oh, such a cool number,” of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, palindromes. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

How are you, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I love the number. It's so in alignment, 333. So, yeah, feeling good about that. And three is one of my lucky numbers, so it bodes well for the episode. 

Melanie Avalon: That's wonderful. And okay, I know we literally just had a conversation about the tangents we go on, but I just have to [laughs] ask you something really quickly related, because every single night now, I go in this rabbit hole, wormhole of something related to numbers sometimes. Are you familiar with the Mandela Effect?

Vanessa Spina:  Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It's haunting me. Do any of them land with you.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah and I've heard them talked about a lot on podcasts too, the Shazam movie. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you remember that movie? 

Vanessa Spina: Yep, I remember. It was called Shazam and not Sinbad was in it. The other guy was in it. 

Melanie Avalon: I think it's Sinbad.

Vanessa Spina: There was someone in it. And then when you look it up now, it's been like purged from our collective media members.

Melanie Avalon: You remember the movie? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: See? Mind blown. The one that got me most recently was the rearview mirrors saying, objects in mirror fill in the blank closer than they appear. And then what is in the blank?

Vanessa Spina: Maybe closer than they appear.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, that's what I thought. I thought it was objects and mirror may be closer than they appear. That's what my mom said, my sister and I polled my audience and hundreds of people answered and half said it was that, but it's not. It's objects in mirror are closer than they appear. I went and looked at all the cars in the parking lot and that's what they say. 

Vanessa Spina: I remember it from-- there was, this in Jurassic Park. There's a shot in the movie where he's looking in the rearview mirror and they zoom in on the text and it always stayed with me, but I thought that's what it was. It's funny how yeah, I wonder how much of that is that effect and how much of it is just like, I don't know, just not remembering it properly or your brain filling in a pattern or something.

Melanie Avalon: Some of the really weird ones, though, like the Fruit of the Loom, do you remember that one? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, if you go down the reddit rabbit holes, there are so many people that remember learning what a cornucopia is, because they looked at that picture. So, why would thousands or millions of people have stories about learning what a cornucopia is by looking at the Fruit of the Loom thing if there's no cornucopia? That doesn't make sense. I think it has to do with reality changing. I'm not kidding. Now I've lost half the audience but I'm serious. 

Vanessa Spina: I think it has to do with that. I just don't stress about it too much. I'm like, “Whatever,” maybe we're in the matrix, there's a glitch in the matrix, I don't know I just can't focus on it too much or I won't get anything done.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. Chick-fil-A. I definitely spelled that “Chic” and my mom said she worked at Chick-fil-A in college and even she thought it was something different.

Vanessa Spina: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: So, I don't know listeners, I want to do a podcast on this. I got to find some Mandela effects, like soap person.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you totally should explore it.

Melanie Avalon: I could talk about this for hours. So, yeah, I'm going to lose people here. I do think it might be either parallel realities interacting or some blip or blackhole. I think it could be something with reality.

Vanessa Spina: There're so many possibilities, if this is a simulation or not, or what's going on, but I spend so much time wondering these deep questions, these existential questions, and then I'm like, “Well, we're never really [laughs] going to know, so I may as well just get on with my life.”

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Vanessa Spina: There's only so much speculating you can do until you realize, “Well, you're never going to know either way anyway.”

Melanie Avalon: I just like thinking about it. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't bother me, but when people like-- you think there could be something going on, but you're like, “It's fine.” Some people are like, “Oh, that's not happening.” I mean, it might not be happening, but I don't know. I like thinking about it. I like pondering the possibilities of reality.

Vanessa Spina: Same. Yeah, same. I think there're these questions that haunt you and they kind of come up bubble up every day or every week, and you're like, “Yes. Still don't know the answer.” [laughs] But it is fun to just contemplate what could be. I think also, we've both talked about how we love Star Trek and just sci-fi stuff, and so definitely there's a lot to ponder of what all those infinite possibilities and what could be.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually related to that, I think it's interesting that we just accept reality the way it is. But there are, “How do I say this?” We really judge some concepts of reality as, “Oh, that could never happen.” But then some things we just accept. The idea that red light and near-infrared light, like this invisible stuff, or near-infrared, it's invisible and it is energy and it goes into our body from this device and does things. But we don't think that's weird. But if that didn't exist, we'd be like, “Oh, that's weird.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's true. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, on that note, is there anything new in your world in this reality right now?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I've been so excited because some of you who are listening may know that I created a tone device, which is a breath ketone analyzer. It's kind of a huge passion of mine because I wanted to find a way that people could get biofeedback on their level of fat burning or how deeply they are in ketosis, especially if we're doing intermittent fasting or extended fasting just to get some feedback. That’s like, “What you're doing is augmenting your level of ketosis or deepening your level of fat burning.” I love biofeedback. I'm sure many of you listeners love biofeedback. It's like if you're running on a treadmill or exercise machine, you want to have the feedback of how long you've been on it and how many calories you're burning and your heart rate and all that just adds to the experience. So, I love data. The first generation of the tone has been amazing.

But I really wanted to create the second generation. I've been working on it for almost two years, about a year and a half of iterations of new devices. It's such a long process because every time you kind of go back to the drawing board with notes and then you test the new version and then you recalibrate something. So, we've changed a number of things. But the thing that I wanted to do with it based on feedback from people who are using the tone and love it, is that a lot of us who are doing daily intermittent fasting, we're not getting into 2.0 to 4 super deep ketoses. It's more like you could fast from say, dinner the night before to dinner the next day, a 24-hour fast, you will get into ketosis for sure. But the first generation was really really accurate, the more deeply you were in ketosis, because you get more ketones.

So, the level of acetone would be higher and therefore easier to measure. With breath it's very difficult because with the blood you're measuring millimolar units, which is like in the units of 1000. When you're measuring breath acetone, it's these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles in parts per million. So, it's much easier to measure it when the concentration is higher. Anyway, we have a new airway mold, we have a new program, we have all these new features, and the device is so sensitive, it's amazing. I've been testing the latest version of it, which is the final version, I've decided, because it's working so well, it's performing so well, and it's making me so excited because it's picking up ketones of 0.1, 0.2. 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 really small ketones. But some of us in a day will get to say, if I fast from dinner to dinner, I usually get to 0.8 to 1 millimolar. 

And with the new second generation tone, you can see that. So, you can see if you test in the morning, you test in the early afternoon, you test before dinner, you can see your ketones going up. With the tone, you invest in one device. You don't have to buy all of those expensive wasteful test strips. You don't have to puncture your skin. You don't have to do any of the rigmarole that goes along with that. You can just test an unlimited amount of times and you just have one device. I always wanted to create something cost effective that would give people that biofeedback. I always found blood testing for ketosis was expensive and cost prohibitive. Most people at the most are going to test their ketones once a day, because if it's a dollar or 2 per strip and the costs have come down a little bit, they used to be even $4 or $5, they've definitely come down.

But this is just so much more convenient. If you're wanting to test your blood and you're at someone's house, you're at a restaurant, you have to go in the bathroom, you're not going to pull out your ketone strips in front of other people, your friends or family or whatever. But with the tone, you can just breathe into it. So, you can do it anywhere. [laughs] It's really cool. So, I'm super super excited for the second generation, and I think it'll be out in a couple of months from now. It just gives me goosebumps. It gets me so excited because the accuracy is so high and it's just very difficult to achieve this. But we're finally there and I couldn't be more excited [chuckles] about it. It's really really fun to use and just so valuable. Especially for people like us who do time-restricted eating and then if you do a longer fast, like a 36 hours or 72 hours, four or five-day fast, you also get that feedback, but just in the intraday fasting, like a lot of us do in this community, it can be a valuable tool for that. So, yeah, super super excited.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. Okay, I can't wait till you're on my other show because I feel like I'm going to ask you so many questions. Get ready. [laughs] So, when you're developing this technology, who are you working with to develop it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I have a factory and I have an institute that studies acetone, so it's a collaboration between all of us together, because there's engineering that goes into the program and the program is directing the sensor. So, there's the technology inside the device, the sensor and the programming that goes with it, and then there's the actual mold, which we managed to change. But one of the big challenges with the first version is it only has a 20 second warmup. So, in 20 seconds, the device has to warmup, calibrate, and warmup the sensor. It's a big challenge and we really had to push it and just invest a lot in the new devices to make them able to warmup and do all of that in just 20 seconds because it's quite fast. Usually, you'll see at least 60 seconds I think, the closest other device in terms of the warmup and calibration, unless there's something new out there that I don't know about, but it's a very fast calibration.

So, yeah, it takes a lot of different components and just the trial and error. It is just so time consuming because I can't tell you how many devices I would test. I'd be like, “No, it was working until this and then it's not as accurate here.” So, figuring out, well, what's the next step? Do we do a new airway? Do we do a new sensor? Do we do-- it's just a lot of coordination of different things. It's the most fun thing [laughs] I've ever worked on by far. So, it's definitely a joy, even though it's very time consuming.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. It's just going to be so helpful for people. Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's going to be very motivational for people. That's really what I want for someone who's either been doing fasting for a long time or they're just starting out and they're blowing into it and seeing every few hours the numbers are going up. That's super motivational. I think people would be able to do that with the blood, but it's just so expensive and painful to test like three or four times a day. So, this, I think, can be a motivational tool for people where they're like, “Oh, maybe I'll do another hour and see how high my ketones go” or just to motivate people to practice time-restricted eating. Then my favorite part about it is trying different patterns and trying different things. I was telling you when one of my listeners did the ice bath and their ketones doubled the next day, and then I did it too and mine doubled. 

So, there's really interesting dynamics, because sometimes you can have really high blood ketones and then do a workout and then you test again and they've dropped to like zero. But if you test your breath, they don't go down because you are using those ketones, a high uptake of them that you won't see them anymore in your blood, but you'll still see them in the breath. So, it's a really cool tool I think that will also be motivational for people and that's a lot of feedback that I get is it helps keep me on track. That's how I discovered that, “Oh, breakfast and dinner really work well for me, especially when I'm traveling or staying at a resort or something.” And I don't want to go off the rails, but I could see that having a super early breakfast and fasting until dinner is 9, 10 hours. That got me really high ketones, too. Doing a fasted workout really drives my breath ketones up, whereas on the blood you wouldn't see it as much. So, I think it's definitely a great tool for experimenting and trying all kinds of different things, higher protein, lower protein, higher carb, lower carb. Well, you're not really supposed to use carbs with, it [laughs] no because carbs produce a lot of CO2 and also breath gases when people eat carbs and then the gut bacteria ferment the carbs, we produce methane and CO2 and all kinds of breath gases that really mess with the sensor.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, wait that's interesting. Like me, I eat a really high-carb diet at night.

Vanessa Spina: So, you could use it in the morning when you wake up and all throughout the day until right before you have your first meal. But you don't want to do it after you eat because then the numbers will be conflated with the breath gases like the Co2 and the methane. You never want to use it after brushing your teeth or having alcohol. So, if you have wine, you'll see the numbers will go through the roof because the alcohol has a similar molecular shape to acetone, ethanol does. So yeah, there're a few things that you can't do with, but people who do high carb and do time-restricted eating or intermittent fasting can use the tone as long as you're only testing in the fasted state or at least say you have breakfast and lunch. Then you could wait four or five hours and you could test when you go back in the fasted state.

But that's why it's a tool that people can use. But if you are doing carbs above 20 g, then not after you eat. Because then, yeah, I had one person who was blowing like these crazy numbers and I was like, “What are you eating?” And she's like, “I'm eating low carb with all this cabbage.” I looked it up and there's this sugar in cabbage and some vegetables called-

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what it is?

Vanessa Spina: raffinose.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I think I've heard of that, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And it makes you blow like crazy amounts high, what the tone thinks is acetone. So, it would blow 60, 70. So, some carbs just have certain sugars in them or it's just the fermentation process in the gut that's causing that or it's the CO2, because that's what-- I think there's a lumen. It's mostly measuring the CO2 on the breath. That's because carbs produce the most CO2, whereas fat doesn't.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, I've seen anecdotally I don't remember who was talking about it. At some point, I saw something about somebody getting pulled over and testing positive on breath analyzers for alcohol when it was really being in ketosis.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's totally happened to people. But yeah, if you do a blood alcohol test, you'll be fine. You can prove it. But if you blow into a breath alcohol meter and you're in deep ketosis, it'll set it off for sure.

Melanie Avalon: It's also interesting. I remember it was, I think when Dom D'Agostino was on Peter Attia or something. And that's when I first learned what you mentioned earlier about how the breath acetone-- Does it always or typically comes from burned fat?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it comes directly from your fat. So, your body, when it goes into ketosis, it creates ketones, as you know, in the liver, and it creates beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which are interchangeable forms, but one spontaneously will turn into the other depending on if it's needed. Because BHB is more the storage form as you know, acetoacetate is more the ready to use form. So, it can interconvert between those two forms. But as it interconverts and it turns into acetoacetate, about 15% to 20% of that ketone turns into acetone. It's small enough that it'll diffuse through the airways. So, it's really amazing because like I was saying, if you had high ketones and then you did a workout and then your body used those ketones and your muscles used those ketones and your brain used those ketones, then when you test, you're not going to see much left over in the blood, but you're always going to have that proxy and those molecules of acetone are coming from your fat. It's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite quotes of Dom's. I actually have a reel on my Instagram of him just saying that, “Like the carbons--”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he's like, “the carbons that you're measuring on the breath acetone are coming directly from your fat.” [laughs] And he's like, “You're at your highest rate of fat burning, essentially when you're in ketosis.” So, yeah, I think it's just such a cool thing to be able to breathe your fat and measure it.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. I have three thoughts. One's just a really quick tangent. Somebody commented something on my Instagram the other day, and it is haunting me, haunting me, relates to Dom. They said they found me through Dom's podcast, which I'm like, “Did he mention us or me on his show?”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, maybe he did.

Melanie Avalon:  So, I commented back. I was like, “Oh, when Dom was on my podcast?”, but the person never answered. But I don't think they would mean that because how would they find--? Well, they could have, 

Vanessa Spina: But yeah, he launched a new podcast, so he probably mentioned you or something.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to go listen to every episode, [laughs] I need to find it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you're like, “DMing him, like, “Hey, did you talk about me?” [laughs] Did you mention me?”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I tagged him in the comment when I commented back, but yeah, the comment actually wasn't very supportive. But that's fine, [laughs] turn that ship around.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Now I want to know what it was.

Melanie Avalon: He said, “I was too skinny.”

Vanessa Spina: Oh, and they also found you through Dom's podcast.

Melanie Avalon: They found me through Dom's podcast, but I'm too skinny. [laughs] Thanks for seeking me out and telling me that. So, the things we deal with, I would love to try it because I wonder if I get into ketosis at all. I don't know if I do.

Vanessa Spina: You're one of the first people I'm sending it to. [laughs] I've been waiting to send it to you for so long, and I knew for-- I don't know, a year and a half ago. I was like, “I'm going to send you the second generation when it's out,” because I knew that it would be more practical for the intraday use for you, because I know you were not doing strict keto. If you were, then you could use it anytime, but yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was one of our first conversations way back in the day.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, probably.

Melanie Avalon: You were like, “I want to send it to you”, but I want to wait for the next one. Yeah, this has been a long time coming. This is exciting. I really do wonder though. I think that'll be really interesting to share with listeners because as listeners know, I eat pounds and pounds of fruit every night.

Vanessa Spina: So, what's your morning blood glucose? I'm just curious.

Melanie Avalon: It's usually, I always do get a dawn effect, but typically what I've seen on the CGM when I wake up, depending on when I look at the CGM and the dawn effect and everything, the dawn effect will actually make it go to like 115 or something for a spike and then it'll be 90s and then it goes down all day, 80s. After I do cryo, then it really starts going down in the evening-- So, when I really feel like I'm in my zone fasting, it's usually in the 80s. It used to be in the 70s, but now it's usually in the 80s and then when I eat especially, I noticed a huge difference when I started taking my berberine. Like I said, I was not expecting it to have that profound of a difference. But now when I eat, even with my meal, that will have probably 150 or 200 g of carbs from fruit, maybe it doesn't usually go above 120 and then it comes back down and then it keeps going down. The worst blood sugar regulation is really in the morning period up until afternoon.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because you wear CGM, so you can tell that it is the dawn effect. It's not like something else because mine was in the 80s for the longest time and then I just close my eating window. I know it doesn't apply to you because you eat late, but I close my eating window like around 7, 7:30 and now it's in the 70s. Sometimes it's in the 70s, low 70s every single day for months now. That was the main thing.

Melanie Avalon: So, flatline 70s.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's always low 70s. But I don't know if I have a dawn effect, I have to put one of those NutriSense CGMs on. I literally can't wait to postpartum to put it on because that's when it's going to be super helpful for me. Obviously, not the few weeks right after I give birth, but postpartum when I'm ready to focus on my metabolic health again and focus on my fitness and all that. It's going to be such an amazing tool and I think could be such an amazing tool for anyone who wants to focus on their fitness because I'm staying as fit as I can while I'm pregnant. But I think postpartum it could be a really good tool for that when you're sort of getting back on track with things.

Melanie Avalon: I truly think if everybody on the planet did just one round for two weeks, I think it would have a profound effect on people's life choices.

Vanessa Spina: I remember listening to-- you probably heard this episode with Dr. Peter Attia, maybe it was a couple years ago and he was experimenting with one and he was just talking about all the things that he was like, “I can't believe this did it to me and this spiked my blood sugar and this--.” I was like, “Well, duh, that did.” But there're always things that affect people differently. They've done studies where they'll show one person's response to banana is crazy and another person's is like nothing. So, those are things I want to learn because I'm like, “Hey, if I can have of an unripe green banana, [laughs] I would love that if it doesn't really affect my blood sugar.” There are so many things you can learn and then there's always going to be things that surprise you where you're like, “I never would have thought that that was doing it,” but it was some ingredient in your almond milk or something that you just don't know, is there? Yeah, it's such an incredible tool.

Melanie Avalon: I love seeing how I react to alcohol and wine. That's always really interesting. I love seeing how I react to like if I have either in the moment with the alcohol and wine or drinking more earlier on a night I go out, how that affects it later. I did have a night, the other night when I was wearing it, where I did just eat all meat and it was a flatline. I was like, “Oh, that is interesting.” I was like, “Maybe I should do like a round of carnivore and just have flatlines all the time for a little bit,” just for fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's when I was wearing it last time and it was so funny because it was a flatline. I was like, “This is really not giving me useful information right now, because it was always 80 something. It was always 82, 83, 84, 85.” It's amazing, though, because you learn that protein really is broken down over four or 5 hours, and that's one of the reasons it's so amazing for you. It does improve your blood glucose and it does improve your insulin and you can see it in real time. But, yeah, when I did it, I was carnivore and I was like, “Going to get any action here? What's going on?” [laughs] Like I'm always the same number. I remember there were a couple of people, Dr. Jaime Seeman, she was laughing about my post. I said, “It was just like a flatline.” So, yeah, it was not that exciting. But I can only imagine what-- some people's look if they're doing high carb or processed high carb all throughout the day or eating, starting off the day with some cereal and orange juice. [laughs] You could learn so much.

Melanie Avalon: Two things. One, some people I'd be curious, I bet some people on carnivore who are also really-- I could see how some people, either on higher protein carnivore or given their exercise and stress, I'd be curious, they might see spikes. That would be interesting totally.

Vanessa Spina: Well, we got a question on I did an interview with Dr. Don Layman. He's one of the most incredible protein scientists in the world and one of my favorite guests. 

Melanie Avalon: What did he discover? He discovered--

Vanessa Spina: He discovered the leucine threshold. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: He's really incredible. And a lot of other things. Like, he mentored Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. They came up with the muscle centric fitness concept, but his lab came up with so many different things, the 30 g of protein at a meal concept.

Melanie Avalon: That's him. 

Vanessa Spina: That's all him, so many things came out of his lab. It's super interesting and he believes one of my favorite things is that thermic effect of protein, that extra calorie burn we get from eating protein is because of the ATP being used for muscle-protein synthesis. He's just such an incredible scientist. Yeah. So, one of our listeners wrote in and she said that her husband was getting really crazy blood glucose spikes on carnivore and they're using a CGM to monitor. She's like, “He doesn't eat a single carb. Why is his blood sugar going through the roof?” Dr. Layman was just, “I don't know how to answer this and I honestly don't know.” I was like, “It makes me think of Dr. Ted Naiman.” He always says like, “Fat can also cause diabetes, too much fat.” What if it's the fat? What if he's eating really fatty cuts of meat, just only ribeyes and super high fat that that's what's causing it. Neither of us knew, but I was like, it'd be interesting, right? if it's the fat that could do it because your body is at some kind of energy toxicity and then it's converting all the protein into glucose and then creating this weird after effect that could give you diabetes. I don't know. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's what the vegan community is really big on, how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors on our cells negatively.

Vanessa Spina: But it's so weird because we make saturated fat.

Melanie Avalon: We make it. Yes, but I guess when we're inundated in it or if we take in too much that's because I'm prepping right now. I think I said to interview Dr. Kahn, Dr. Joel Kahn-

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's right, that’s right. 

Melanie Avalon: -on Friday. I'm relistening to his interview on Rogan with Chris Kresser. So, he has a chapter or a section in there. So, I was just reading about it and he talks about how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors and can make you insulin resistance, which I can completely see in the context of a carb diet, but in the context of no carbs. I guess what you just said, if your liver is producing more glucose from protein and then the fat is creating that with the receptors, I guess you could get in a state. I don't know I am not-- This is not my forte.

Vanessa Spina: I really want to know from her if-- and I'm going to follow up with her because she asked the question in our Facebook group for my podcast. I really want to follow up and see what if he did a lean protein carnivore? I wonder if it would change things, because people always assume it's the high protein, but it could be the high protein plus the high fat. And it's just so interesting because Dr. Layman was also saying there're so many studies done where the results that they get are just because people are just eating too many calories in general, too much carb, too much fat. Then they're blaming the protein levels, whereas the protein is like helping improve your blood sugar and insulin. It's the other stuff. It's the fuel macros or so.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, like I said, I’m really excited to interview Dr. Kahn because I think I'm such a good example of-- I know I'm N of 1, but I eat super super high protein and animal protein, very high. I mean, higher than most people definitely in my category and then really really high fruit. I don't have these blood sugar issues and my cholesterol is like plummeting. So, it just makes you question things [giggles].

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm definitely going to listen to that one.

Melanie Avalon: I am excited. Well, and for listeners, I don't think we even said what a CGM is, but if they're not familiar it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a sensor that you put onto your arm. It is painless to apply I promise and then it monitors your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid continuously for two weeks. We love NutriSense. You can get $30 off at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast. So nutrisense.co/ifpodcast, the coupon code is IFPODCAST, that will get you $30 off. You do save money if you get a subscription. So, if you think you're going to be doing it more long term, we definitely recommend that route, otherwise do the two weeks. You also get a free month of nutritionist support, so you can actually chat with somebody in the app and they'll help you make sense of all the data. So, it's super cool. How can people learn more about your new Tone device?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you for asking. I actually am doing a launch for it with a very special launch discount. And you can go tonedevice.com and sign up for the list. And you'll receive that launch discount when they are out. And you'll also find out when they're available to order. But yeah, it's going to be in a couple of months, so it's coming soon. I'm very excited. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. I imagine how many molds have you made? They're very pricey, aren't they?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and it's so funny because I literally have them. I'm in my office right now and there're Tone devices everywhere in our house. Almost every drawer you open, there's a Tone device. It's like Easter. It's like Easter eggs. [laughs] I'm like, “How is there one in this sock drawer? There's one in here, there's one in Luca's drawer. They just pop out everywhere and I don't know what to do with them. I label them which version they are and stuff. I almost just want to keep them all, put them in a glass case or something. [laughs] They are coming out of our ears here. There's just so many. But yeah, it's worth it because I think the new version is going to be just so cool. And that's the most fun part for me. The last note I want to say on this is, it's the most fun part for me is when people actually get them and they're using them and they're tagging me in their stories and they're like, “Look at my ketones today,” and I did a fasted workout and check this out. 

And as a community, I get to just interact so much with everyone. And it's the part I'm the most excited about. I know I'm sure you feel that way too when you get feedback from someone who's saying, “The berberine is like a game changer or whatever, it just makes your whole month.” It just makes you so happy. You're like, “This is why I enjoy doing this stuff.” It affects people in ways that make them happy. And when they love the stuff that you create, it just makes you feel like all warm and fuzzy inside. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's so fulfilling. I do the same thing with the supplement bottles. I had a moment the other day because I've embraced this new mantra and I say it in my head every night, throw away something every day. So, throw away every day. I'm trying to very slowly just cleanse my physical space, get rid of stuff. The thing I threw away the other day was I had the first glass bottle from the supplement line, but it wasn't even labeled. It's literally just a glass bottle. And I was like, “This has just got to go. I do not need this. I don't need to keep this,” but I want to keep all the bottles and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's special to keep it. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I threw it away, but [laughs] I have the ones with the labels still.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, got to put them in a glass case.

Melanie Avalon: It was when Scott sent me just a glass bottle that we're going to use for the glass bottles, it was that glass bottle. But I was like, “I don't actually need this on my shelf.”

Vanessa Spina: Right? Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm just going to throw one really quick link since we're talking about all the things. I am launching my EMF blocking product line. So, more information on that. We're starting with air tubes. Friends, please don't wear Bluetooth AirPods. I just shudder, I shudder, I shudder. But in any case, you can get more information for the launch special at melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist. So melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist, get on that for sure. Shall we answer some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I'm going to read two questions because they sort of go together and these are both from Facebook. So, the first one is from Nikki. She says, “I like to do a couple 24-hour fasts per week. I usually break these fasts around dinner. The goal of the fasting is fat loss, but I do still want to preserve lean muscle. On the other days, I typically get around 115 to 130 g of protein. Should I make sure I get 100 plus grams of protein on my two fasting days even though I have an eating window of two to three hours on those days? It's difficult to get that much in a short window. And I'm not sure how beneficial it is in one sitting. Could or should I make up for it by increasing my protein intake on the other days.” Then related to that is from Nancy and she said, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when I typically fast 20:4?” So, she's doing something sort of similar. They're both struggling to get all the protein. What are your thoughts, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I love both these questions. For me, I need to answer them separately because it's two different things, but they're kind of fun, especially to Nancy's creative ways to get the protein in, I'm all about that. So, in terms of Nikki's question, it's such a great question. So, the goal is fat loss, but wanting to make sure you preserve your lean muscle, which is key for your metabolism and maintaining as much lean body mass as possible for your body recomp. I wouldn't be concerned about only getting-- you're saying on the other days that you're getting 115 to 130 g. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting over 100 g of protein on your two fasting days. I don't think it's that necessary. I think you just focus on getting it on your eating days to get that 115 to 130. It's definitely like that 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, I think is great when you're doing body recomposition. But if you are also doing fat loss and you're practicing fasting, that's how you're also ramping up the fat loss is through that caloric control. So, I don't think that you need as much. If you're fasting, you're probably getting into some light ketosis. Ketones have a muscle-sparing effect, so I wouldn't worry about having to hit 100 g of protein each day. That might just make you uncomfortable trying to do it with less meals. So, that's my opinion on the first one. As far as Nancy's, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when you are fasting 20:4.” So, you're doing one meal a day. 

So, I have two different diverging thoughts on this. The first is, do you necessarily need to get 120 g of protein? I would question that first, and I don't have all the information on why you're consuming that much and what your goals are. But say you're doing 120 g of protein because you're targeting around 1 g of protein per pound of body weight or ideal body weight, and you want to get the optimal amount of protein in to preserve your lean muscle mass while doing body recomposition. I would say target as much protein as possible till you're getting those satiety effects. You need at least 30 g of protein per meal. I don't know if you are able to, but if you're able to have two meals in that 4-hour eating window, if you're having, say, either a dinner and then waiting a couple of hours and having a protein shake, you can definitely fit in a couple of meals, and you can definitely get at least 30 g of protein at each of those meals, which will mean you'll get at least 3 g of leucine, as long as you're doing high quality protein. 

If you're doing plant-based protein, you probably need a little bit more 35 g as a target but if you're getting at least 3 g of leucine at two meals in your eating window, then you're going to be more than fine in terms of preserving your lean mass and your muscle. I know that having a 4-hour eating window doesn't give you that many meal opportunities, but I would definitely try to break it up in that 4 hours so you have at least two opportunities where you are triggering muscle protein synthesis as opposed to just one meal where you're having like 100 to 120 g of protein. Now the other thing is, I myself tend to do a similar eating window. I change it up. Sometimes, I'm doing breakfast early early in the day. I was just doing that for the past week. Then I'll have a dinner about nine to 10 hours later.

So, I go back in the fasted state. But I have come up with so many different creative ways to get in as much protein as possible. So, I have turned different aspects of the meal into protein opportunities. So, the main proteins that I have at my meal, whether that's chicken or beef or fish. But then, I use nonfat yogurt to make a lot of sauces. So, there're so many amazing sauces you can make with yogurt. You can make tzatziki if you're doing kebabs or if you're doing a yogurt marinade. I make salad dressings with it that I'll have with my protein and with some salad. So, like honey mustard is super easy to make with some yogurt in there. Sometimes, I'll make like a tuna salad and I'll use high protein yogurt, which is like lower fat yogurt instead of mayo. And I also do a couple of other things. I make protein bread. So, I make this three to four times a week and I make a couple of loaves of protein bread. It's a bread, you may have heard of.

Melanie Avalon: It is a cloud bread?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, so it's often called cloud bread. The version that I make is Maria Emmerich's recipe and its liquid egg whites and powdered egg whites blended together in a stand mixer and then you put it in the oven for about 30 to 40 minutes and it's delicious. It's the protein wonder bread. I use it in so many different meals. I make sandwiches with it. Sometimes, I'll do like a tortilla soup or like tomato soup and I'll use the bread to dip in it. I'll make protein churros with it with sweetened yogurt. There're just so many amazing things that you can do with it. 

Of course, toast with eggs and all that or just for breakfast, I'll have the protein bread and then cream cheese with lox, tomatoes, and capers. It's a lox bagel. There're just so many things that you can do with it and so that's another way that you're getting more protein in. Then, there's the sweet dessert options. You can make a protein shake using-- I like to use whey protein or egg protein and I usually do that either a couple of hours after my dinner or sometimes it's like closer to dinner if I haven't had as much protein with the dinner. But I do almond milk, frozen berries, ice, and whey protein and blend it up and tastes absolutely amazing. So, I'm hitting the protein at every step of the way and every aspect of the meal has some protein in it.

And sometimes, I think at first when you're starting to prioritize protein more, it seems overwhelming. Like, “How can I get this many grams of protein in one day?” But when you start using these different yogurts, different protein bread, different things to incorporate into the meal, it seamlessly becomes a lifestyle over time. Then you're like, “Gosh, my meals are just so incredibly satiating, so satisfying.” The biggest issue I have is I get so full, it's hard for me to sometimes have another meal because every component of my meal is protein related. So, the first part of the answer was like, do you necessarily need to get 120 g? But if you want to, there're a lot of creative ways and even not 120 g, hitting around 100, you can easily do it if you're getting a bit creative. What do you think, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: That was so helpful. Thank you so much. That was so impressive. That was like, so many great suggestions because I eat the same thing every single night, so I'm not much help. So, [laughs] it's really helpful to hear all of these options. Thank you. I'm thanking you from the listeners. Thank you. Some of the thoughts I had, so really interesting. I was really really curious what you're going to say about the 100 g of protein, especially because I'm reading Dr. Gabrielle Lyon's book right now and she's very adamant about 100 g every day. I'm like, “Oh, this seems very important.” So, you diverge a little bit in your thinking on that.

Vanessa Spina: Well, because if you're not doing time-restricted eating, you're not getting into any light ketosis. But I know our listeners are mostly practicing intermittent fasting or fasting. As Nikki was saying, “She's doing fasting.” So, because she's doing fasting of 24 hours twice a week, she's definitely getting into ketosis. So, she doesn't have to worry about getting that same amount of protein on those days because the ketones are providing that muscle protective aspect. But if she wasn't fasting and you are trying to optimize muscle growth, muscle gains, you want to get as many opportunities in the day to trigger muscle protein synthesis. And for most people, that's three meals a day, 30 g at each meal. I know that's what Gabrielle recommends and that's like 90 g to 100 g of protein a day. And that's a great target I think for the average person who tends to eat three square meals, but for people who do fasting, it's a little bit different. Especially with two 24 hours fasts, you're definitely getting into ketosis and those ketones will help protect your muscle.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to talk to her about it when I interview her, because she didn't-- I don't think because I'm almost done with the book and I don't think she has said anywhere I could be wrong. I don't think she said anywhere that fasting would indicate that maybe you could have less protein. Interestingly, she does say there are studies on exercise and maybe creating a muscle preserving effect. So, it's what you just said, but it's on the exercise front.

Vanessa Spina:  Right, right. Yeah, because you're sending a signal with resistance training to preserve.

Melanie Avalon:  Because I read that and I was like, “Oh, that's kind of like with fasting,” where we're upregulating human growth hormone and we're like creating this state where the muscles are basically primed. That's what she said. It was something about how-- I'd have to find the exact quote, but it was something about how when the muscles are really primed from exercise, then they can soak up those amino acids really well. I'm using very casual terminology, but basically you might not need quite as much because it's so efficient at grabbing what's there. And I feel that's a similar situation that's created from fasting. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. For people who are over the age of 40 and really concerned about keeping as much of that lean mass as possible, I definitely recommend doing that kind of exercise-- resistance training when you're fasting, because you want to send that signal, we need these muscles, we need to hold on to them and not catabolize them. And then when you break your fast, of course, make sure that meal has all the protein in it. But I think that we are really integrating a lot of these concepts. Well, I can see from your community, this community, my community, and others, that people are really getting this information, putting it into practice, noticing huge amelioration or difference in their body composition. It's relatively recent that we've really started talking about protein, really focusing in on it. Unless you've been in the bodybuilding world for years, then you probably know some of these concepts a little bit more. 

But I really feel like this information has kind of been in that space, like the physique competitors, the bodybuilders or the science labs, and now it's reaching so many people. Thanks to advocates like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I just love getting questions like this because it's like, yes, we know how much protein to get, and we know how important it is, and we just want to know the best way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I love it so much. My suggestion that I'll add to your-- because you gave so many incredible suggestions about what to add. So, the thing I'll give as a piece of advice is maybe focusing on what not to have. What I mean by that is really leading with protein rather than having a super high fat, high protein meal because that might really fill you up. So, for me, when I eat, and again, I eat very similarly, it's always just really really high amounts of animal protein, like fish, chicken, steak, and I eat a lot of cucumbers and fruit. So, I'm not prescribing that because I know it's super weird and it's like what I love. I basically lead with protein. So, my hunger is being initially addressed with protein rather than with fat per se. Even with the carbs, I eat those as like my dessert. So maybe not letting focusing on the protein and not adding a lot that might prematurely increase your satiety. That would be my suggestion. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's great. I think that's what Ori Hofmekler always says to you right. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we have to try to get him back on this show. We should have him and Dom and all the people.

Vanessa Spina: Both of those would be so much [unintelligible 00:53:12]. But Ori would be like a dream.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'm going to reach out to Ori. I'm writing that down right now. Ori, O-R-I and I have the thing I can use as the moment. Remember how I said his nephew is my sister's--

Vanessa Spina: Totally. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: And what about protein powders? So, when people have your upcoming protein powder coming out, how much protein will that add for them? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, what's amazing about it? Scott and I have talked a little bit about the formulation, but because we've optimized it based on the science of leucine and muscle protein synthesis, you only need one scoop, which is about 15 g of protein. But because we've added in the leucine, you'll still trigger muscle protein synthesis, but without having to take these giant scoops of protein, which, as you were just saying, with regards to fullness, can make people feel super full or bloated, if it's not a high-quality protein, if it's whey protein concentrate or different blends, whey protein isolate, moderate amount. I only take one small scoop and it's great because I can have that an hour or two after dinner and I'm still not going to bed, feeling super full. I would never even think of doing that if I was using a traditional protein powder where you have to have these mega scoops just be digesting that for so long. I don't think it would be comfortable to go to bed with a full stomach like that.

Melanie Avalon: I love going to bed with a full stomach.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, like overly full when you're just like--

Melanie Avalon: No, true.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: How can people get on the list so they don't miss your launch special for that?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, the other other Tone, toneprotein.com. You can sign up to get that launch discount and be the first to know when it's out. It's going to be the biggest discount ever offered on Tone Protein, and it'll be out in a couple of months, so you can stay tuned on it and just sign up with your name and email @toneprotein.com. But thank you for asking me.

Melanie Avalon: No, of course. That just made me think really quick. Speaking of the naming thing, because I have AvalonX supplements and with my EMF line, I was like, “Do I use the same name? What do I do?” It's like a whole thing, like a big decision. I'm keeping it. I basically have AvalonX supplements and then my AvalonX. I have AvalonX powered by MD Logic for the supplements and AvalonX powered by SYB for my EMF line. But it was a big moment decision. Did you have that moment decision of calling it the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: I felt like it just made sense from the beginning because Tone, I created it because ketones and wanting to get toned. And for me, the Tone Lux just made sense because it's like somehow related to the mitochondria. But Tone Protein was, like, I always wanted to call it that because you're getting toned and it all connects back to that. But I think it's great to have one consistent brand across different things. So, I'm glad you're keeping AvalonX. I think it's such a great name. 

Melanie Avalon: Love it. Awesome. Well, this has been so fun. Great palindrome episode 333. For listeners If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there or you can ask in my Facebook group IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. So yeah, this has been super fun. Anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun and I'm super excited to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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