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Dec 26

Episode 245: Modifying Eating Windows, Plant Based, Processed Food, Chronic Fatigue, Soy & Tofu, Sugar Alternatives, Corn, Potatoes, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The Ultimate New Year’s Bundle, More Than 7 Pounds Of Meat Added To Your First Box For FREE!!

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get the Ultimate New Year’s Bundle, more than 7 pounds of meat added to your first box for FREE!!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Melanie - episoode #1 and eating earlier

Listener Q&A: Angela - Processed vs. Plant Based

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

The Chef's Garden Book

bioptimizers: Go To p3om.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off Any Order!

Listener Q&A: Julie - How did i get here?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get more than seven pounds of high-quality responsibly farmed meat all for free. Yes, for free. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food, and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution. It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers, they find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately, your health so that you can finally get meat of the highest standards, 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, wild caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry. But back to meat. ButcherBox's meat is delicious. Each box contains eight to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want, and it's shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious.  

The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the porkchops and the bacon, basically, this stuff is delicious. And for limited time, ButcherBox is offering new members an amazing deal for the new year. Just sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, and you'll receive the ultimate New Year's bundle in your first box. This deal includes grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef, organic free-range chicken thighs, and heritage breed pork butt. That's more than seven pounds of meat added to your first box all for free. So, get this New Year's bundle before it's gone by going to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 245 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous because I am at the beach cottage with Will and we're having a great time.  

Melanie Avalon: That's lovely.  

Gin Stephens: It was a spur of the moment kind of a trip. I was going to come this weekend with college friends, but then we had the ACC championship. So, we did that last weekend. So, they're like, "We can't get away again." I'm like, "That's fine. I'll go by myself." Will didn't have anything to do. I'm like, "Come with me." So, yeah, he's doing a lot of painting. Now, he's sitting on the beach with his guitar. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: He's so creative.  

Gin Stephens: He really is. He is so creative. He's 22 and completely right brained and is happiest when he's creating something. He likes to create music, he writes music, and now, he likes to paint. So, I love that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I had a fun event on Friday.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, what was that?  

Melanie Avalon: I had dinner with one of my podcast guests.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fun. I love it.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. It was very exciting. It's weird. I was thinking about it. Most of my really good friends now are all people I've met on my Biohacking Podcast. Isn't that weird? It's so crazy.  

Gin Stephens: You know, it sounds weird except that a lot of my really good friends are people that I met through my Intermittent Fasting Groups and like their real good friends. I mean, obviously, my college friends are people I've known a long time but a lot of my really close friends have been on my podcast. All right, I didn't meet them till after they were on my podcast like face-to-face.  

Melanie Avalon: The people I talk to pretty much every day are people I met in the podcast and then just started talking to after and really got to know really well. So, the person I went with though, I'm not super close or anything, but it was Dr. Eric Zielinski. So, he wrote The Healing Power of Essential Oils. I think that's the title of his first book. I didn't even realize we have the same agent, all of us.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's great. So many people do.  

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Same literary agent. Yeah, it was so fun. So, it was me, and him, and his wife, and their new baby, and my sister, and it was just a really fun time. It was really fun because yeah, like I just said it was only the second person I've met in real life from the show. Because he actually lives here in Atlanta.  

Gin Stephens: I've met people in real life that you haven't met in real life that I met through you.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Are true. So, yeah, it was really fun.  

Gin Stephens: Like, I can think of three. Three people that I've met in real life that I know through you only, but I've met them in real life and you have not. [laughs] And I'm not counting Cynthia Thurlow, because I actually met her first.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she and I met first. We were on a radio program together. We didn't know anything about the other person and we both talked afterwards about here, we're like, "What is she going to say? Is it going to be the opposite of what I say?" But we found we were very in sync.  

Melanie Avalon: I was actually reading her book last night, her new book. 

Gin Stephens: Her book comes out March.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, in March. Okay. So, her book is about intermittent fasting and I'm not saying this to sound like a 'no' at all, but when I read a book about intermittent fasting, it's just so overwhelmingly familiar, like all of the information.  

Gin Stephens: You're like, "Yep, yep, yep."  

Melanie Avalon: It's hard for me to think what would this be like to read this. 

Gin Stephens: For the first time?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: I know what you mean. I 100% get it. But yeah, I met her first and then, you met her later. But the other three, can you think of all three of them?  

Melanie Avalon: Shawn Wells.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Anna Cabeca.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I forgot about her. Okay, four. [laughs] Yes, Anna Cabeca, four, because I forgot that I met her through you. But I did. Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Wade Lightheart.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: And, okay, so, there's one more.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Somebody, he is been on our podcast. Oh, and there's another one, too. There's five. Both of the others have been--  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Todd White.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. And of course, we can't forget the main one. The reason I was at the conference.  

Melanie Avalon: JJ Virgin.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.  

Gin Stephens: Isn't that fun? Now, I've met all of them face-to-face.  

Melanie Avalon: That's so crazy. That was a fun game. I like guessing games.  

Gin Stephens: I know you do. That's why I was happy to do it because I was like, "Melanie's going to like this." You did a good job and you've got all of them. [laughs] And they're all just lovely. That's the best thing.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was reflecting on. Because I was posting about it on my Instagram today, and I was just reflecting on how it's all really, really wonderful people. Literally, it's my closest friends now, not necessarily that group that we just mentioned but-- 

Gin Stephens: The conference that I went to where I met all of them face-to-face, you know, JJ Virgin puts it on, and it is the best community of people. You know, the people that you know from your podcast are all probably very in the same circle. I really think JJ Virgin has a lot to do with that because she has a philosophy of, we should all work together and lift one another up, and like a rising tide lifts all ships and that everyone works together, and that we're not in competition, we're in collaboration.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's definitely the way I feel it.  

Gin Stephens: That's exactly the way this whole community feels. So, everyone is a generous supporter of everyone else. Even if you don't have the same philosophies about things, people talk about them respectfully together, and it really is just an amazing group that she has put together and cultivates. 

Melanie Avalon: I think that's so important. I also, think there's often, I don't think it's necessarily true but there's this cultural idea that like women in particular get competitive when it comes to business rather than collaborative, and yeah, that just doesn't resonate with me.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And the whole idea that we can disagree about things and still like each other. I'm talking to in a big general, not like just me and you. But in a general world of like the health world.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.  

Gin Stephens: Like Wade Lightheart and his partner that eat differently. We've talked about them a lot but that you can have different philosophies and still collaborate. Anyway, I just love it.  

Melanie Avalon: I do, too. I have one more update. I can't say what it is yet exactly.  

Gin Stephens: That's a fun one. No, I'm kidding.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. But I just want listeners to know that I'm really getting closer to currently developing a supplement number two and it's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, here's the funny story. Can I tell you a funny story about supplements?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: I was telling Chad about your supplement and how great it was going. I'm like, "I'm never going to make a supplement." He's like, "What do you mean?" Because he's a medicinal chemist. [laughs] So, I actually have someone living in my house who probably could formulate a supplement. He's like, "What do you mean? We could make a supplement." I'm like, "I don't want to make a supplement." He's like, "But we could. We could do that." He's at the point. He just found out he can retire after one more semester. He can retire and start drawing retirement. He's not sure if he's going to. He hasn't decided but he can. So, he might be like, "Let's make some supplements." I'd be like, "Oh, okay, you're in charge of that, Chad." But after I've always said, I wouldn't, I'm still not planning to but the way he reacted was just so funny.  

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.  

Gin Stephens: He's like, "I could do that." I mean, he totally could. Drug design is his thing but [laughs] he's going to have to be 100% in charge. It'll be Chad not me. I don't really want to make supplements. But I'm glad it's going well for you.  

Melanie Avalon: It's going so well. It's just so fun and I said this before, but it's just really exciting to see this concept manifest in real life and for it to work so well. Oh, my goodness, so, the supplement, I haven't mentioned the one out right now, which is serrapeptase. I think, I've mentioned before that I have this mole on my nose that won't go away that I keep getting it like lasered off or shaved off and it keeps coming back. I was wondering if the serrapeptase would do something, but I think it's actually going away now.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, then I've got to get your serrapeptase and take it because I've got an eyebrow mole and I need that eyebrow-- It drives me crazy. The hair grows straight out of it like a witch's mole. I mean, so, I have to pluck it. Like right in the middle of my eyebrow, I have to pluck all that hair out, and then, I have a bald spot in the middle of my eyebrow. It could be worse, right?  

Melanie Avalon: So, it's colored? Like it's brown?  

Gin Stephens: No. It's skin color. It's a skin color mole.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. That's what mine is, too.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But it is right there in the very middle of my eyebrow, and the hair that grows out of it right there just sticks straight out like crazy. One day when I'm really old, I'll just let it go. I won't care.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, maybe you can try my serrapeptase and maybe it will. 

Gin Stephens: I need to. Does that make my mole go away then that would be amazing?  

Melanie Avalon: That would be so exciting.  

Gin Stephens: So, I will never do a supplement because you'll have all the supplements. So, I don't need to. 

Melanie Avalon: I think, I definitely know my next five that I want to do. So, when this episode comes out, we're doing a holiday special. Okay, we're logging down the details probably tomorrow. So, this might change. But what I think it's going to be is, I think, it's going to be 25% off which is crazy. So, 25% off, and then, I think, it's going to be that if you order it while it's 25% off, then you get like a special link. You can send to your friends, and then, if they use that link, they get 20% off of a future order, and you also get 20% off for every friend that purchases. It's like refer a friend thing. So, that's all at avalonx.com, and then my email list for information about the future supplements, and then, like that special and all the things is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. So, yeah, and last thing, do you know what I really want to develop Gin, I guess, it would be under my supplement line, but it's not a supplement that you take internally.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know if I could ever guess.  

Melanie Avalon: I want to make a fasting fat unlocking cream.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. What? You're going to have to explain it. I'm so confused. [laughs] I feel like fasting just unlocks the fat already.  

Melanie Avalon: Well. Okay, so, a lot people have stubborn fat. It's often subcutaneous fat. So, it's like that fat that you can pinch. So, love handles, and maybe on your arms, or on your abs. So, yes, fasting puts you into a fat burning state and encourages fat burning but a lot of times those actual fat cells, there's receptors on fat cells that basically determine whether or not they are releasing their fat or storing their fat. Even if you're fasting, fasting does not necessarily mean that you'll automatically, easily open up all your fat cells to be used. Especially, depending on their metabolic state and where they're at like people who you know, yo-yo diet, I think, the more you lose and regain, and lose and regain fat, the more resistant your fat cells come to losing their fat again. So, if you literally put a compound into the fat cell topically that activates receptors that encourages the fat cells to release their content, then, I think, you can more easily burn stubborn fat while fasting. So, it's like upgrading your fasting, like if people were to drink coffee and find that that helps them burn more fat.  

So, there are different compounds that do this like caffeine, and menthol, and green tea, and I found one that I currently use, and I like the ingredients mostly, but it's not completely clean, and I just want to make one that has no problematic ingredients and just these active ingredients, and I think, it can go two ways people who have really stubborn fat and maybe a lot of it, it can help that for sure. But also, people who don't even necessarily need to lose weight, but they have like, just it seems little stubborn areas, I think, it can really, really benefit that while fasting. So, it would be a fat unlocking cream. It wouldn't actually burn any fat, but it would make it easier to burn, to spot treat fat burning while fasting.  

Gin Stephens: All right, well, that's interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: That's my pitch. [laughs] I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm inspired because the one I've ordered is actually, I'm a bit shocked how well it's working, but it has stuff in it that I don't like. So, I've got to make my own version.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's fun to know connections so that you can make things that have just the ingredients you want in them.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Like the one I'm using right now is like bright blue. I'm like, well, it was not good, dyes and stuff like that.  

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day and I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin, and I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy, pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use.  

Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there. And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices and they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick, easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light.  

And this is my personal favorite update. So, for those of us who like to use do devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a gamechanger for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply. And this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off-- Oh, I don't think I even realized this was from a Melanie.  

Gin Stephens: I've actually met this Melanie face to face.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. She was on my podcast. So, I wonder when she sent this one in, it might have been like a long time ago. It might be an old one because I've met her face to face and she was on my podcast.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, hello, Melanie. The subject is: "Episode number 1 and eating earlier." So, Melanie says, "I just listened to my first IF podcast." So, she had just listened with this had been a while ago, you think?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't know because I don't know when people listen to Intermittent Fasting Stories, and then, they might run out of those, then, they start Intermittent Fasting Podcast, so, it's hard to know. The question that she asked about me makes me feel like maybe this was before. You'll see when you keep reading it.  

Melanie Avalon: So, she says, "It was fantastic. I really enjoyed it." And this is a question we get a lot. She says, but where is Episode 1, on iTunes, it starts as number two. Yes. There is no Episode 1. We had technical difficulties with it and it's lost forever. I don't even know. Yeah, it's lost. [laughs] I'm sorry. It's funny. Sometimes, I think, occasionally we've had a question where they say, they actually heard Episode 1, and that's how you know they've been there since day one. Her second question. She says, "Gin was talking about how if there is a family gathering i.e., brunch she eats earlier. Does she still follow up with a five-hour rule and stop eating after five hours no matter what time of day it is? Thanks, and again loved my first episode, you both sound great together." She's from Canada. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. And this is why I think she probably knows the answer to this now. But the answer is, of course, probably, people who've been listening a long time know that I do not time my window anymore at all. For example, yesterday, I had brunch with Will. It actually wasn't very early we went at 2. There's this place down here they have this jazz brunch, and it's fantastic, and I love to go there. It's called LOCAL. It's in Pawleys Island. If anyone's ever down in the Pawleys Island area, go to LOCAL, I love it. They made me a mocktail, I had eggs Benedict, we split avocado toast, we listened to jazz, yum. But it was 2 o'clock. And then, if I was still following the 5 o'clock rule, I would be like, "All right, must stop eating by seven." Nope. [laughs] I no longer do that at all. I just go with the flow depending on what day it is and what's happening. There are many days that my window is shorter.  

For example, let's see what day is it. Today's Sunday. We're recording. We came to the beach. Okay, Wednesday and Thursday--, both Wednesday and Thursday, I was busy. So, I didn't eat until later probably, 6:00, 6:30, something like that. I had dinner, closed my window less than an hour, two days in a row. Then, I've had a couple of days right after that with longer windows. So, I feel like it all balances out. I would really be, I mean, of course, I don't track it. It would be interesting to see what my average is. I bet my average is probably five hours or less but I don't even know. So, I no longer track anything. I just wait till I open my window and then I close it when I'm done whatever that may be. 

Melanie Avalon: When you're tracking, would you adjust for that?  

Gin Stephens: Well, when I was trying to lose weight, see that was a different thing. When I was trying to lose weight, I was following Dr. Bert Herring's Fast5, and he had 19:5 as the foundation of his plan. And his one rule is, find a consecutive five-hour window every single day and stick to it. That was the only rule. It needed to be a consecutive five-hour window. And he didn't even talk at all about tracking the fast. It was like, you have that, the boundaries of the five-hour window, you open, you close it within five hours. He's like, "Of course, you're going to have some days where it's longer, some days were shorter, but in general, five-hour window." So, that's the way I was raised up my early days with the Fast-5 program. So, when I was losing weight, that's what I tried to stick to.  

Melanie Avalon: When you were doing that, if you had opened it earlier, you would just do it earlier five-hour window?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. But that didn't always work so well. People have heard me talk about this before, when I open early, even if I have a giant brunch at noon, a giant meal. Let's say, I have a Thanksgiving dinner at noon.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. 

Gin Stephens: I'm probably going to feel great till about 8 PM. It is just about what I've noticed for myself. So, I'm like, "I'm just going to eat this one big meal, and then, I'll be fine. And then, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine." 8 PM rolls around, I'm starving. So, I have two options at that point. I can be like, "I'm just going to push through the hunger and go to bed." But I don't do that. If I'm starving at 8 PM, I eat again. I don't like to go to bed starving. That's not the right answer for everybody. Maybe someone else push through. But it's easier for me to push through, after I wake up in the morning, fast longer than it is for me to push through in a day when I've closed my eating window, and now, I'm starving again.  

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this, but I'm the exact same way-- The exact same way. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. And this is from Angela, and the subject is: "Processed versus plant-based." She says, "Hi, hello, Melanie and Gin. I am a 33-year-old female who has been experimenting with intermittent fasting since November of 2019. I lost a total of 20 pounds between November and December of 2019 and have over 50 more to go. Then, I slowly went back to my old ways in February, but never fear I'm going to continue IF immediately. It is the only thing I have found that has helped combat my chronic fatigue in addition to weight loss. So, we know that processed foods aren't the best for our bodies and Whole Foods provide more nutrition. My body doesn't do well with most meats. I can have very lean meat and fish. So, I've been looking into incorporating plant-based foods into my diet. My question is kind of threefold. First, if I am eating pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods, is it counterproductive to try to increase nutrition?" It's never counterproductive to try to increase nutrition. I'm just going to say that.  

Melanie Avalon: I agree.  

Gin Stephens: Although, we can talk about the first part in a minute, but it's never counterproductive to increase nutrients. All right. "Second, what should we be looking for so far as no added this in plant-based products? Last, are there any plant-based foods or food brands that you can recommend? Thank you, ladies for all that you do. You bring so much inspiration and information to us all and all I can say is," she's going to love Clean(ish). Angela needs to read Clean(ish), because it's all explained in there. So much detail. But anyway, you get to go first, so, I'll let you talk about it first.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, this is a great question from Angela. This definitely in my opinion touches into something that I see a lot now, especially, with the plant-based food movement, which is where a lot of people are making the dietary choice for health, or environmental, or ethical reasons to go plant-based, which can be really great for the individual depending on the individual's constitution. But there are a lot of like Angela said, you know, pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods that may come with their own array of issues.  

Gin Stephens: Like Girl Scout Thin Mint cookies. I think, they're vegan. [laughs] So, yeah, they call something vegan and you're like, "Oh, it's so healthy." No, it is a Girl Scout Thin Mint cookie.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I mean, think about how many just like of the breakfast cereals on the market are probably technically vegan. Sugar is vegan. Yeah, so, a lot of things. I did a lot of research on this, by the way for brands and stuff, the different thoughts. There is the option of less processed, less pre-packaged plant-based foods. So, you could still be making meat alternatives yourself and I know that might require more time, but once you figure out the system that works for you and how to cook it and what you like and integrate it into your life, I think, the cost benefit of learning how to make food closer to its natural form that you really like long term in the health world will have massive, massive benefits. So, if that's an option, I would definitely go that route. So, that would be things like, if you are eating soy or tofu, getting that more plain and cooking it the way you like or things like mushrooms or-- Did she say, she's vegan or vegetarian?  

Gin Stephens: She just said plant-based. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, she does have lean meat and fish. So, you might be having eggs, and lean meat, and fish. You could still stay in the Whole Foods world and make it work plant-based wise. If you are having more of the pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods, things you would want to look for, it's really, really shocking. If you turn over most of the things in the market and see the ingredients, there's just so much stuff. So, things I would look for are anything you can't pronounce or don't know what it is, that's probably not the best sign. A lot of like gums and carrageenan are added to these foods, and those can be problematic, they can be inflammatory. If it ever says like natural flavors that can be anything, so that's a little bit sketchy.  

Gin Stephens: It could be MSG. They hide that under all sorts of flavor kind of things. 

Melanie Avalon: Something I personally am very concerned with is refined seed oils, and I've done an episode with Dr. Cate Shanahan all on this. If you'd like to learn more, that's at melanieavalon.com/fatburnfix. But that's all about the potential problematic issue of refined added vegetable and seed oils. So, that's vegetable oil and there's like you can remember it because there's three C's three S's, there's probably more but that's a way to remember the main ones. So, it's canola, corn, cottonseed, soy,- 

Gin Stephens: Sunflower. 

Melanie Avalon: -sunflower? Yeah, sunflower. I would be really wary of those in the foods. The ironic thing about it is that, a lot of the vegan and vegetarian foods will actually use these oils because it's a way for them to have less saturated fat, and it works for them, and what they're trying to make the label say. But the problem with these oils is they are highly, highly unstable. So, when they are refined like that and then in these foods, they can really create a lot of inflammation in the body and oxidative issues. So, I would really, really avoid added C in vegetable oils. If you are having soy which is going to be pretty prevalent in the plant-based world, the majority of soy is GMO. So, I would look for organic soy only. My thoughts on soy have been changing. So, I've always sort of historically been on the fence and a little bit confused, and I didn't do a really, really deep dive until pretty recently because I interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard, who is one of the top vegan proponents of all the vegans.  

A lot of listeners probably know who he is because he's in all the documentaries, he has a lot of books. I interviewed him finally, like two weeks ago. So, that episode I think will come out around March or so. He wanted to come on actually for his study about soy. So, ooh, I went deep. I read everything I could find and my takeaway was that-- we've talked about this on a recent show, so I won't go too deep into it. But my takeaway was that, it's probably very context dependent. It probably depends on your gut microbiome, it probably depends on your genetics as to whether or not you benefit. I think, it might depend on your current estrogen burden. But in any case, I think, going the natural route, so, non-GMO, organic soy and/or like fermented soy, which is called tempeh would be the route to go if you go that route. So, yes. So, my suggestion would be to turn over, go to like Whole Foods, and look at all the brands, and turn them over, and see what's in them. I will list some brands that I like.  

So, Primal Kitchen does make some vegan, and like non-dairy condiments and things like that. So, you could check them out. Check out Amy's. If you're sensitive to gluten, that's something that you would want to be looking for. So, any grains or gluten and the products. I like Eden Foods. That's a brand they make some soy milks, and soups, and they're mostly organic, no additives or they might be all organic. A good dairy alternative is coconut milk but it's pretty hard to find coconut milk without gums and carrageenan, but I know they do have one at Trader Joe's and Native Forest is also a brand. If you're going with the vegan milk still, it's like almond milk, it's really hard to find one without additives, but MALK is a brand that doesn't have any problematic ingredients, For the soy, SoyBoy is a brand that I like. They have soy and they have a Tempeh.  

Again, check their ingredients though because some of the different flavors have problematic additives. There's a meat alternative made from jackfruit and Upton's makes an original form that doesn't have any additives. So, that's something that you could try. You can also get organic canned jackfruit. So, that might be something to cook with. Mushrooms, by the way, are also fun things to add and use as meat alternatives. Especially, the really big like portabella mushrooms. I like some of this Dr. Praeger's that they have at Whole Foods, but it's not organic is the only thing. Maybe that's a place to start but I would definitely either way, there's going to be like, if you really want to invest in this, there's going to be a learning curve, where you are going to just need to familiarize yourself with brands, and then also, like I said maybe learn how to make vegan or vegetarian plant-based alternatives yourself in a more whole foods form. 

Gin Stephens: I have a few things to add, although, you've said a lot as usual, which is good. [laughs] You are thorough, that's the word I'm looking for. So, I really think like I said, Angela, you're going to love Clean(ish), because it can get really hard to decide, you know, how perfect do you want to be? That's where the ish comes in. We know for certain but there's a lot of stuff we don't know for certain in the health world. You'll find a study that says one thing, you'll find something else that says something contradictory, but I will pretty much say, Melanie, see if you agree with me here. We know for certain that no one gets healthier by increasing the amount of ultra-processed foods in their diet. Would you say that's pretty much one thing we know for sure?  

Melanie Avalon: No one gets healthier by increasing ultra-processed foods. I don't like to ever say I'm certain about anything.  

Gin Stephens: I know. I don't either. But this is one where I'm pretty certain. 

Melanie Avalon: That is the closest to approaching certain that I can get.  

Gin Stephens: I've never seen a study that implied otherwise, more and more, ever since the term ultra-processed came out, which really hasn't been very long. I talk about this a lot more detail like I said in Clean(ish). We used to just say processed, but that is a misleading term. Because if you shuck an ear of corn and slice it off the cob and cook it, you've just processed it. But if you grind your wheat into flour, you just processed it. So, processing itself is not a bad thing. It's the ultra-processed, that's the problem. Once we got that terminology, it really helped make things clear. You want to eat things that are not ultra-processed when you can. But again, I'm cleanish. Melanie just listed a whole bunch of options that are probably considered to be ultra-processed but still better than other options that are ultra-processed. Feed foods can be organic, and also ultra-processed at the same time. We think that if it says organic on the label, it's a good choice. Those organic seed oils are just as inflammatory to me. I mean, maybe not just as inflammatory, maybe the ones that are not organic or would be less inflammatory, but they are inflammatory as well.  

There's a term that I learned when I was at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition called crowding out. It's a great concept. It really helped me come up with my own personal definition of Clean(ish). You want to focus on high-quality Whole Foods, whether you're looking at the paradigm of plant-based or whether you're going to be paleo. Melanie, you know for sure that as paleo got popular, paleo ultra-processed foods became available, which is the opposite of what paleo was supposed to be.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I was going to say that exactly.  

Gin Stephens: Right. So, we can ruin anything in America or the world by ultra-processing it and it still quote fits the guidelines, but it doesn't at all. I've talked about this before as well when I did the low-fat diets of the 90s, I read the T-Factor Diet and the only takeaway that I took away from that was eat less fat. So, I started eating SpaghettiOs, and SnackWell's, and McDonald's had a fat free Apple muffin, you could drive through and get and you could have a coke with that and the whole thing was fat free. I mean, that is not what the T-Factor book said to do. I went back through it recently and reread it, and he wants you to eat whole foods that are low in fat. That's really what it is. No matter how you're choosing to eat, the more real foods you can fit in there, the better you're going to be, and over time, you'll figure out, what proportion of ultra-processed foods you can allow in there. Melanie, are you zero with ultra-processed foods, would you say? Do you eat any?  

Melanie Avalon: So, in my everyday day-to-day life, I don't have any. When I go through my low carb phases, that's when I'll do the MCT oil which is ultra-processed. Every now and then if I'm having like a crazy celebratory craving, I will get the low carb like keto cake mixes with the least amount of additives. So, they're typically like almond, or coconut flour and erythritol, or monk fruit or stevia. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're on the continuum. Really close to whole foods all the time, but you still allow the ultra-processed sometimes. And that's your definition of Clean(ish), right?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: But I on the other hand, I wouldn't choose something with monk fruit or erythritol, I would use real sugar or coconut palm sugar instead. That's because we each have a different what we want to do. That's the whole in the book, Clean(ish), which you need to order right now, because it's coming out January 4th, which is so very soon. In Clean(ish). It's all about figuring out your own personal definition of how that looks for you and what will you have and what will you not? I talk about in there that, I avoid these oils, I like to stick to organic things, but there's a mayonnaise I love that I grew up with and I don't eat mayonnaise very often. So, if I do need to eat mayonnaise or want to eat mayonnaise, I use this brand. It's probably GMO. I'm sure it is full of funky stuff, but I like it. But I don't need it all the time and I don't eat those oils day-to-day. So, it's just like I said, a matter of figuring out your perfect balance. My diet has more ultra-processed stuff in it than Melanie's, but it's way different than how it looked one, two, three, four, 10 years ago. So, it's a process.  

Like I said, before, that I ate out twice yesterday, I am feeling so puffy today and I know, it's because when I eat out, they use all these things, these inflammatory ingredients I don't use at home. So, I don't feel my best. When I get home tomorrow, I'm going to make something that has very high vegetable content, and I'm going to feel better. And it's just a matter of finding that balance that works for you. The more ultra-processed foods you can eliminate, but still enjoy your life, I really think the better.  

Melanie Avalon: To that point for me with eating out like I've just learned how to order where I'm equally happy with what I'm ordering but then I don't get any of the negative effects because I'm so specific in how I order. For some people, it's worth it to do that and for some people, it's not. So, it's really just a matter of like you said, Gin, what's worth it to you and what makes you happiest in the long run. Have you tried Primal Kitchen's, mayo?  

Gin Stephens: Yes, [laughs] and it's good. It's fine. If I were someone who ate mayonnaise every day or used it a lot, then, I would really think about the brand that I use. I would not want the brand of mayonnaise that I prefer. I'd like Duke's mayonnaise, and I grew up with it, and it is what mayonnaise is supposed to taste like. If I want something, it needs to be Duke's mayonnaise. But I don't eat mayonnaise every day. If I did, I would probably switch to Primal Kitchen. But it's a sometimes thing. So, having a little bit of this once a month or however often, I really only put it on if I'm making pimento cheese, which I don't do hardly ever. [laughs] Maybe at Christmas, I'll make my cranberry cheese or I'm having an egg sandwich which I have, I don't know, not even once a month. So, I'm going to eat it it's going to be Duke's, but I don't eat it very often. I don't think I explained what crowding out was. Did I explain what it was or did I just say it and then go down another rabbit hole? Crowding out is when you focus on high-quality Whole Foods as the main part, and then you crowd out, let's say, I wanted to have some homemade hummus with a few pita chips on the side, and then a big salad or something. So, I'm crowding out those chips. I'm still allowing them but I'm filling up on the good stuff first.  

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I will say speaking to the sweetener stuff, I reserve the right to change my opinion on this but the sweetener, I'm most interested by as far as I think it probably has-- 

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm predicting in my head what you might say, go ahead. 

Melanie: Oh, ooh, ooh, yay. I like this game. I think it probably has the most health benefits, minimum side effects. Allulose, all right, that's not I was going to say. What did you think is?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I was thinking you might would think blackstrap molasses was interesting because it's got so much mineral content.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, or manuka honey. Pay 100 bucks for a tablespoon.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Have you looked at blackstrap molasses at all? 

Melanie Avalon: I've seen vaguely at different times. I know, it has certain things in it nutrient wise. The allulose is really interesting because it's becoming more and more popular. I went and read all the studies that I could find on it, and it actually, it has a very beneficial effect on especially for like diabetics on just carb content in general. I'd have to revisit what I was saying but the mechanisms of action are really interesting. I think, I don't want to put up misinformation, but it's something like it either competes with carbs or it seems to have a pretty beneficial effect, and it tastes very similar to sugar, and it acts very similar to sugar.  

Gin Stephens: To be honest, for me, the reason I avoid all those others is, I just don't like the way they taste. I don't like any of them.  

Melanie Avalon: Have you tried allulose?  

Gin Stephens: I haven't tried that one. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's what it is. I think, it's actually a natural like sugar. That's what it is. It's a natural sugar found in certain fruits but we just literally can't metabolize it into carb energy. So, it's getting sugar without getting any sugar.  

Gin Stephens: Well, they said all about the sugar alcohols, all those things and I just don't like them.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. I agree. It's not a sugar alcohol. No, it's an [unintelligible [00:45:58].  

Gin Stephens: Those are the kind of things they said like, "Oh, it's natural, oh, it's still not like--" [laughs] I would love to try it but I just stick to coconut palm sugar is really good. It's got that brown sugar flavor. Have you ever had it?  

Melanie Avalon: Nope. Do I know a fun fact? Do you know the difference between sweet corn and corn?  

Gin Stephens: I do.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like the variety?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh. I just learned this because I'm prepping to interview FARMER LEE JONES. Do you know who he is?  

Gin Stephens: I did not.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so excited. He's like this epic regenerative agriculture farmer. He always wears overalls. That's what he's known for. I think, his farm pioneered microgreens, and they're all about creating really interesting varieties, and species, and using all the parts of the plant, and they're just really cool. But I learned in his book, which is epic. Okay, now, going on to some other tangents.  

Gin Stephens: I would probably love his book. What's it called?  

Melanie Avalon: So, his book is called The Chef's Garden: A Modern Guide to Common and Unusual Vegetables -With Recipes. And it came out in April. It is the most beautiful book and it reminds me--, Gin, it reminds me of you so much like what I was reading it. It's really like, "If Gin were to make a, well, actually--"  

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm going to order it right now.  

Melanie Avalon: It's like if both of us were to make this book because-- 

Gin Stephens: Tell me the name of it, again. 

Melanie Avalon: The Chef's Garden: A Modern Guide to Common and Unusual Vegetables -With Recipes. I got so happy because so his people asked to come on the show and I asked if they could send me like the book, and they sent it, and he signed it with a message to me. It made me so happy. So, I have a signed copy but it's a beautiful book and the reason it reminds me of you is the recipes are-- 

Gin Stephens: I just ordered it.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yay.  

Gin Stephens: It's coming.  

Melanie Avalon: Let me know what you think when you get it. You'll see why when you get it, but the recipes are all there are whole foods and stuff, but they also use sugar and they're not like--  

Gin Stephens: They're Clean(ish) 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's really an amazing, incredible book. Oh, but I read the whole thing front to cover, which I probably didn't need to do because you will learn so much about every vegetable ever known to mankind.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait, I'm so excited about that.  

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it should be required reading in a way because the amount of information I learned about, I think, I shared it, did I share about the potato?  

Gin Stephens: I don't think so.  

Melanie Avalon: The fun fact about the potato that I learned from this book?  

Gin Stephens: You said something about corn. First of all, tell me if I'm right. This is what I think like when I said yes, I need the difference and then, I was like, "Maybe, I don't" as I started second guessing myself. This is what I think the differences between sweet corn and corn. Most of the corn they grow is not sweet corn and that is to feed animals. Then, sweet corn is the corn we eat, am I right or is that wrong?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. That's what I thought. There's something about most of the corn they grow is for animals.  

Melanie Avalon: Most of the corn that we grow is, I think to feed animals.  

Gin Stephens: It's not the kind of corn we eat. It's a different variety of corn. That's not the kind we eat and then the kind we eat I thought was the sweet corn. Okay, so what's the difference?  

Melanie Avalon: So, corn is a grain, sweet corn is a vegetable.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. What?  

Melanie Avalon: I know. It blew my mind.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know about that.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you want hear the potato fact that blew my mind? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I've got to look up this thing about corn and sweet corn.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I'm telling you what Southern Living thinks, I'm right and he is not. I just looked up, Southern Living said, "The variety of corn we enjoy eating is called sweet corn, which does not grow nearly as tall as field corn. Sweet corn has a higher sugar content than cow corn and is picked while immature before the sugar has a chance to turn into starch." So, that is exactly what I thought. So, I don't really know what he's talking about. I'm going to have to read this book and figure it out. Sweet corn and field corn, it's different, but it's who's going to eat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Corn can be considered either a grain or vegetable based on when it is harvested.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, that does make sense. Okay, but It's the variety of corn, sweet corn is a different variety than cow corn, right? So, they do let the kind that they're going to feed to the animals dry in the field, and I guess, that's the difference is when you harvest it. Whether you would consider it a vegetable or if you let it dry, then maybe it would be considered a grain. No, we were both right.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, maybe, that's what he meant like the corn that's fully mature and dry.  

Gin Stephens: We harvest it while it's still considered a vegetable. But if you let it sit in the field, but we don't do that with sweet corn. Sweet corn, we do not let it sit in the field and dry. We harvest it and then we eat it. But the other kind of corn is the kind that is for the animals and they do let it dry in the field. When I looked that up, it was because I was driving around and I'm like, "Why is all the corn looks so bad? Why is it all so dried up?" And then, I searched it, I was like, "Is something wrong with the corn this year?" Then, that's where I learned, "No, that's field corn. They're letting it dry for the animals."  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So much learned about corn. You're going to love this book. Here's the potato on. Are you ready?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, the potato became this massive thing when they discovered-- I don't remember when it was like 1,700s. When they discovered that it had a high nutrition value in Europe, it was like a good food source, basically. And it was the royalty people that figure this out. So, they wanted to have it as like a food source for the European population. What did they do to make the people start all growing and eating potatoes?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: They did something. They use some reverse psychology to make the non-royalties like the peasants start growing corn. Do you have any guesses?  

Gin Stephens: Do you mean, potato?  

Melanie Avalon: Potato. Sorry. To start growing potato.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. You just have to tell me.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I am just going to tell you because I played this game at Christmas with my family and it took a long time for them to guess. So, I'm just going to tell you. They planted potatoes in guarded fields, so that the peasants would think the potatoes were like really special and expensive or something worth getting. So, then the peasant would steal the potatoes, and then they started planting themselves.  

Gin Stephens: Well, joke's on you royal people, because potatoes are amazing.  

Melanie Avalon: No, that's what they wanted to happen.  

Gin Stephens: But I know, I know. I know. But they're so good. They were like, thinking they're just for peasants, like wanting the peasants to eat them.  

Melanie Avalon: They wanted to spread potatoes as a food source in general. So, it was like, how do we-- 

Gin Stephens: But they liked them, too.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But it was like, "How do we make the peasants start doing this?" So, they made it seem like they were really exclusive.  

Gin Stephens: All they needed to do is just give them a potato and they would have been in. [laughs] He also talks all about the difference between like yams and sweet potatoes. 

Gin Stephens: I've done some reading about that, too. Does he say that yams and sweet potatoes are not the same thing and that yams are--? I think, yams might be in Africa?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I knew they weren't the same thing but I would go down so many rabbit holes before this being like because I'd be like, "How to identify a yam or sweet potato at the supermarket?" He says, "If you're at a normal supermarket, so not--" 

Gin Stephens: It's the sweet potato.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's a sweet potato. The yams are only ethnic type. 

Gin Stephens: Super specialty. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't wait for you to get this book.  

Gin Stephens: I apparently know a lot about food already.  

Melanie Avalon: You're going to love it. He has sections on every single vegetable, and then all the different varieties, and some of them, there'll be like 30 varieties. They'll talk about 30 varieties of tomatoes. It's mind blowing.  

Gin Stephens: And then, it'll make me want to have all those varieties, then, you go to the store and it's just the plain old boring ones.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. There is a farmer's market here in Atlanta called Buford's Farmers Market, and I've gone a few times, and I think, they have basically everything. It's crazy.  

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Melanie Avalon: That was a tangent. Shall we move on to our next question.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have a question from Julie. The subject is: "How did I get here?" Julie says, "Hello, I started IF in August 2018, 49 years old, 5'2", 134 pounds. I've always been active, walking, yoga, and elliptical weights, workouts. My body mind and lifestyle adapted quickly to IF, a negative self-talk about weight and food finally subsided. I felt healthy free and in eight months, I was 123 pounds. Fast forward to yesterday having not stepped on the scale in months. Now, 51 years old and I weighed in at 136. I maintain clean fast, little alcohol, healthy eating, and 20:4. Please help. Is it age, cortisol? I have read/heard Gin talk about this in relation to COVID-19. ADF is not for me. So, I just try to keep positive, drink more water, almost a gallon daily, eat healthier, etc., but I don't understand how I got here. IF has worked for me and I'm committed to this way of life.  

My weight gain shows in the mirror, my clothes, and my mind. Negative self-talk has returned and I feel like I did pre-IF. Side note: I am in good health, and my doctor supports IF, and the lower weight range for my size. Blood test for my annual physicals were good, no health or thyroid issues. Do you have ideas on supplements or vitamins? Any support is welcome. Thank you." She wants to know if we reply by email or only respond on the podcast, do we give heads up to listeners. Grateful for your expertise and advice. And we do not usually reply via email. Occasionally, we do. Sometimes, emails come through and we just must address something. But normally, it's surprise on the podcast. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, Kate, you got to listen. Hopefully, you'll hear it. So, Julie. We can't answer the why. We can't tell you because you said, is it age? Could be. A lot of people gain weight as they go through menopause and you're right at that exact age for that. Cortisol? Could be. She's referring to a blog post that I put out in 2020 about the pandemic, and stress, and weight gain because all of a sudden, in 2020, people who were maintaining beautifully with intermittent fasting, and had been for a long time started having sudden weight gain. So, we talked about the stress that comes along with the pandemic and we're certainly not over that. [laughs] The stress continues as things continue to like, "Oh, here's a variant." And yeah, the media pumps us full of fear, and we're living in this constant Loki stress state, day after day. So, I would absolutely not minimize the effect of that and I would just say, so, you've gained-- It looks like, you lost 11 pounds initially, and now you're back up the 11+2 more. So, 13 pounds. So, you went down 11 and then you went up 13. So, I know, it's frustrating, but it really could be. It could be a combination of hormones, menopause, and stress that we're living through right now. So, we can't tell you what it is.  

And also, there are no magical supplements and vitamins that we could say, this is what you need. Boy, I wish there were. I'd make that supplement. [laughs] There was a magical supplement that could make us lose the weight, but there isn't. We've been down that road, all of us have, and you buy them and you saw them on the famous TV doctor who had the different episodes about this magical supplement. I bought everything that was on there. Never once did it make me lose magical weight. Sadly, I wish it had. But it could be so many things. I would really suggest, you might need to be someone who does way more frequently. That might be hard to hear, because I'm someone who doesn't weigh at all, and I haven't weighed for a long time. But if I knew that I had gained weight, and I couldn't figure out why, that scale was really good feedback for me when I was trying to lose weight. It really made a difference. And doing my weekly averaging or using something like happy scale, and really being able to see if you can find what's going on. I'm trying to see what she eats. Did she talk about her diet?  

Melanie Avalon: She just says-- I was actually going to talk about that. Yeah, she says, healthy. 

Gin Stephens: Healthy eating is such a big phrase. You know what, what you think is healthy eating, what I think is healthy eating, what Melanie thinks is healthy eating, what Paul Saladino thinks is healthy eating, there are all going to be different definitions. So, there may be some room to improve in your diet, especially, if you're choosing foods that don't work well for you. I could be eating in a way that fits a lot of definitions of healthy eating, but I'm eating too much of it or my body doesn't like those healthy things. My body would like something else. So, it's really time to tweak if-- You haven't done ZOE, yet? You might really enjoy that, ZOE test. I have a blog post about that ginstephens.com/zoe. You've probably heard me and Melanie talk about it. You also might need to switch it up a little bit.  

I know, you said, you like 20:4 with a four-hour eating window. You don't want to do ADF. You said, it's not for you. Although, I will say, the number of people who have said, I didn't think it was for me, and then I tried it, and guess what? I love it. There are a lot of people who say that. So, you might be surprised. But you could do a mild, not really ADF version, where one day, you have 23:1, and then, the next day you have 18:6 or something. You just keep alternating those. That's a very mild up down, up day pattern and see how that goes. That might be enough to get things going. But there're so many things you could try. Unfortunately, though, like I said before, we can't identify the why of the weight gain. We can just point out some suggestions or some ideas of what it might be.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I thought that was great. The healthy eating was actually what I was going to focus in on because I thought it was really interesting that the thing, she asked advice or to adjust the way it is vitamins or supplements, that would be the last, well, not the last thing, but that would not be high on my priority list for addressing weight loss. The foundational things, I believe for addressing weight loss are the actual food that you're eating and when you're eating it.  

Gin Stephens: And you know, that just shows how programmed we are to look for that in a bottle. Because we've been taught here's what you take, and then you will lose the weight, and that's not how it goes. I wish it did.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I think the healthy eating, it's really easy to eat what may be healthy eating and maybe healthy eating for you, but healthy eating that will create weight gain. Because if you're eating certain foods that are "healthy," but are promoting fat storage, easily stored as fat and eaten higher than you are burning off every day, then, you're going to gain weight as a necessity of that.  

Gin Stephens: People often think that because we say, don't count calories that we are saying that calories don't count. Calories are a terrible way of measuring what's coming in, what's coming out. But neither Melanie nor I or really anybody that I really trust and follow thinks that you can really just overeat eat, eat, eat, eat, eat and not gain weight. If you eat too much, you will gain weight. So, I'm not saying that's what Julie's doing. But you can overeat in a four-hour window if you're eating like a lot of cheese for example. That's my own little-- [giggles] my nemesis of overeating is usually cheese and dairy products because I love them, but they're easy to overeat.  

Melanie Avalon: And that's an example we're looking at the type of food rather than the calories or even the amount can take care of itself in a way. Because if cheese is a greenlit food for you, you can most likely very easily overeat it and gain weight from it. Same with like nut butters and things like that compared to with, you know, you're like, "Oh, I can have unlimited protein." It's unlikely you're going to eat so much protein that you gain weight if anything. It has high thermogenic effect, if anything, you'd probably get full faster and probably lose weight and while also boosting your metabolism for example. So, I would focus in on that healthy eating, and look at what you're eating, and I would suggest, and I say this a lot, so, I feel like a broken record. But if you're not looking at your macros at all, there's a lot of magic that can happen. You don't have to count calories, you don't have to count even amounts, but if you play around with a macro approach that can work really, really well for a lot of people, and it doesn't have to be forever, but it can be just while you're losing this weight. So, that would be either low carb or low fat, and seeing how that works for you.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a good suggestion.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode245. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. All right. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I guess, I'll just put in one more plug for go ahead and pre-order Clean(ish) if you haven't already.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

Gin Stephens: It's coming out really soon and I'm excited. 

Melanie Avalon: Really soon when this airs.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. And even really soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Five or six days, like a week. Like a week after this. 

Gin Stephens: Even really soon like now. It's really soon just in general.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think, it's about a week after when this airs. Already well, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. And this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Dec 19

Episode 244: Low Fat Diet Success, Protein & Fruit, Being Discouraged, Gut Microbiome, Prebiotics, Probiotics, Fiber, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To Avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

for A Limited time save 15% on your delay, don't deny community membership with the promo code CLEANISH at ginstephens.com/community!

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Listener Q&A: Josh - Suggestions For My Wife?

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Erin - Microbiome

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in. 

These supplements are formulated to give your body the exact electrolyte balance that you need including sodium, magnesium, and potassium because electrolytes are actually charged minerals that conduct electricity to power your nervous system. So, not only are they regulating your hydration status, they're actually determining how your cells conduct energy. If you want to learn all about the science of electrolytes as well as a lot of commonly asked questions like, can you just drink to thirst, is low sodium or high sodium dangerous, how should you supplement with electrolytes based on your diet and physical performance? Definitely, check out the interview I did with Robb Wolf on this podcast. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many times I get listener feedback about people who have tried LMNT and told me that it basically was the thing that felt like it turned their body back on. It's honestly, truly incredible. And it's not just you guys, LMNT is actually the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, also dozens of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams. Use and recommend LMNT Navy SEALs, FBI Sniper teams, Marines, a lot of tech leaders, it is basically the supplement to get when it comes to electrolytes.  

Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's d-r-i-n-k-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF p-o-d-c-a-s-t. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes. And one more thing before we jump in.  

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is episode number 244 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?  

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have so many things.  

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I've just rolling along waiting for Clean(ish) to come out. On the date that we're recording this, we are less than a month away and on the day it comes out, we're less than a month away. So, if people have not preordered Clean(ish) yet, pretty soon, you'll just have to real order it because [giggles] it comes out January 4th. So, go ahead and preorder it now. You're going to want to have it.  

Melanie Avalon: So, when this comes out, it'll be just a few days before Christmas, which is very exciting. So, people can preorder almost order Clean(ish). I will be having a sale-- holiday sale right now, I think, in theory on my serrapeptase. And I think we're literally locking down the details right now. But I think we're going to do, if you were on the list, so, get on my email list. Hopefully, we can do this some sort of like refer a friend thing where if you refer the serrapeptase to a friend, you get a code, or a credit, or discount. Hopefully, that'll be in the works.  

Gin Stephens: It's just figuring out logistics for that?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But either way, there'll be a sale. So, that will all be at avalonx.us 

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I'm actually running a Clean(ish) special for my DDD community. Well, if you want to join the Delay, Don't Deny community, we're having a Clean(ish) book study that starts on January 5th. So, with the promo code CLEANISH, you can save 15% on your Delay, Don't Deny community membership if you go to ginstephens.com/community. And we figured out the math of it. If you join with the promo code, CLEANISH which is 15% off a yearly membership, it costs less than $1 a week for a year. I mean, that is like, I don't know, that's just like buy different brand of butter one week and you've saved-- I don't know. [laughs] 

You know, it's a very, very small amount and you get the community, and we're doing the Clean(ish) book study which is included. So, ginstephens.com/community, promo code CLEANISH. That's just going to be good until we start the book study. So, get on it. It's very exciting. I'm loving the new community, by the way, since we moved it. It is so good like it works and I got an email today from the company. They just got a $25 million investment from some kind of investor. So, their goal is to be the best community platform out there and I'm very excited that we're on it. That's a big deal.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: So many exciting things coming.  

Gin Stephens: So, people are still loving your serrapeptase, then? 

Melanie Avalon: As of this recording, people are just now starting to get it, so that the pictures are flooding in with people taking it, but it's really exciting. Yeah, people have already reported back. Some people have said that they've noticed differences already, and everybody is saying that they're not having any GI issues because serrapeptase is like the one thing that some people react to. And now, since, people are not reacting to mine, I really think it's probably the enteric coatings. Yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily the serrapeptase as much as serrapeptase requires special coatings normally to be absorbed. So, I think people might have been having issues with that aspect. But mine, we'd like it's good. [giggles] So, I'm so excited. We're developing my second supplement. I'm not going to say what it is, but I'm trying to decide which form to do, and I've been doing a lot of research, and I think, it's going to be surprising the conclusion I reach, so listeners can stay tuned.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'll be so curious to hear.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Can I share a Christmas related story?  

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] I'm just kidding. Of course, you can. Please, I love Christmas. I'm sitting here with my Christmas coffee mug with empty in it. I've got my little Christmas tree. So, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: For listeners. What is empty for those who are not familiar?  

Gin Stephens: It's hot water in a mug?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, two things, I went and picked out a Christmas tree with my dad, and I posted this on Instagram, but there was the most attractive Christmas tree man there like the man in charge of the Christmas trees, who like saws it and stuff. Oh, my goodness. And so, I posted about this through the video. And so, now, whenever I post anything, people ask about, am I going for Whole Foods guy or Christmas tree guy? My epiphany that I had-- I had this dumb blonde moment last night. Like this is definition dumb blonde, I can't even. So, when we were picking out the Christmas trees, I was thinking, "Hmm, people pick out smaller Christmas trees now." I was like, when I was little people picked-- Like the trees were bigger when I was little. I literally was thinking this seriously. And then, last night, I was decorating my Christmas tree with the lights, and I realized the reason I thought all the trees were smaller was because when I was little they looked bigger. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, yeah, that's true. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Literally, I felt like-- I probably for a week, I was like, "This is-- It's so weird." When I was little, people were buying bigger trees. But I guess with like COVID and--  

Gin Stephens: Well, this is how you'll really know that's true. If you ever go back to your elementary school-- You'll go back to your elementary school and everything looks so different because you thought it was all giant, now it looks small? Yeah. That's a really good indication of that. But you're right. If you ever look at how children draw adults, they draw them with like giant legs like little kids. If they draw like a little family, the adults tend to have really long legs that are way out of proportion to the rest of their body. But imagine you're a tiny child, you see mostly leg. See, it is fun having an elementary teacher in your podcast. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I frame some pictures that my niece-- my niece and nephew drew. And I'm looking at them. Yeah, they do have very long legs.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But that is because those kids are little and they look up and your legs look like they go on forever. It's just the proportion is wrong.  

Melanie Avalon: Anyway, that's so funny. It was when I was decorating the top of the tree last night and I was like, "Oh, this was probably the size of the tree." When I was little, it probably wasn't. So, that was a moment. One more thing I just want to share really briefly, I plugged this last time, so, I'm currently creating my epic gift guide email lists. So, hopefully, people got that. So, that's actually on, oh, I didn't mention the email list earlier, so two email lists from people to get on. If they want information about the serrapeptase, go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Now, list will also have information about the new supplement that I'm creating. But if you want my general updates like my Biohacking Christmas guide list that I'm working on right now, that's at melanieavalon.com/emaillist. In any case, I'm writing it right now and I'm putting all the things that are great for gifts, and I want to tell you, I mentioned it last time, Gin. ReMarkable. Do you know about reMarkable?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You told me about that. Yeah. Well, I think we talked about it last time.  

Melanie Avalon: But not on the show.  

Gin Stephens: I thought, we did. Because was it off the air?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I said, I had to tease it for listeners.  

Gin Stephens: That's right and then he told me. Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: Because I was like, "I swear to God, you told me that," but-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I did. Okay. You know when you get something and every time you use it, you're like, "Wow," Like, "Wow. this is changing my life." And then you're like, "How was I living without this?"  

Gin Stephens: Does it save the notes?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, it's like-- kind of like an iPad, but way skinnier. You write with this pen thing. It feels more like writing on paper. That's how they market it. So, it doesn't really feel like a screen. It doesn't feel like paper, but it feels good. You can pick if you're-- Oh, so many options like a pen, a pencil, a ballpoint pen, a marker, and depending on what you're using. It feels like you're using that thing. So, if it's a pencil, it will look like pencil lead. If you go harder, it makes it darker compared to a pen where it pretty much always looks the same. You can make different notebooks or sheets of notes, and you write your notes, you just click convert to text, and you email it to yourself, and you have everything typed up. I can't believe I was-- I mean, this is saving me hours.  

Gin Stephens: Does it have to convert to text because I like things that look like handwriting?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Because I would like to save handwritten notes because that just for me, that's how I remember things better. Tactile, because-- For example, I have a big notepad next-- on my desk, next to my computer, when I'm talking to somebody or doing something, I write stuff down. So, it's like all the stuff written down but it's like random stuff. Like, if you flip back, it's just a random, but it would be nice to have all that random stored somewhere. Because I'll be like, "I know. I wrote that on my notepad." But yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually even easier because so it automatically syncs, I think, with your eye clap. You can get it to sync with your computer. So, if you don't convert it to text, that's just automatically synced. So, I think, it is a drive on your computer.  

Gin Stephens: But it looks like, you see it, it's written on paper while you're writing it. It feels and looks like you're writing on paper, and then it uploads it automatically. That is definitely something for me to play with. I would probably like that. 

Melanie Avalon: And I was super impressed. I was playing with it at Thanksgiving and my mom started writing on it, and she was doing cursive, and I was like, "Oh, this is not going to figure out cursive." It figured it out perfectly when we converted it. Literally, listeners, my pattern of prepping for my other show, my Biohacking Podcast, every night for about three hours I read a book that I'm prepping and I take handwritten notes, and then the next day, I would retype them. So, now, every time I use it, I'm like, "I can't believe I was retyping this every day."  

Gin Stephens: Now, I will tell you something from a teacher point of view. Retyping it--  

Melanie Avalon: You are going to say you learn it more.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. [laughs] Like for me, what I was-- you know, if I really wouldn't, that would be like a way I would study is rewriting anyway. But if you don't need that extra step, then--  

Melanie Avalon: When I was retyping it, it was pretty mindless. Like I would watch stuff and I wouldn't really pay attention. It's when I reorganize the retyped information that I learn it.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're not using the typing as a learning. Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: No. Essentially, rewrite what I retyped. And that's when I--  

Gin Stephens: Because that rewriting part actually gets it into your brain better rather than just rereading your notes actually rewriting it, because it's going in your brain differently. Your processing it more. The more you process it, the more you're going to remember it.  

Melanie Avalon: It's when I reorganize the information that I really learn it.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's also why the teachers now that just write up notes and hand them out to the kids like, "Here are your notes that I wrote for you to have," they are missing the important step of the children taking notes and processing it. They are impacting learning. Anyway, I could talk about that a lot. [laughs] Taking the notes, and I also really believe writing them by hand is better than typing them as far as memory. That tactile writing versus click, click, click. It just gets it in there differently.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. A fellow podcaster reached out to me and they were like, "Can you tell me your process? How many hours do you spend on each show?" I had never thought about that. Like, how many hours do I spend prepping? I really don't know, but I told them, I think, it's probably between like 10 and 50 hours or 40. I don't know. But now that I have reMarkable-- [laughs] take it down. I don't have a code. I've been begging them. I'm like, "Please give me a discount code." They said, "They might in the future." So, I don't know. If you guys get it, tell them I sent you. So, I'm really trying to convince them to give me.  

Gin Stephens: So, they'll be like, "Yeah, I'd to give you a code."  

Melanie Avalon: I want them to know that like, literally, I want everybody to have this and I want them to know how much I am sharing them. So, they'll maybe in the future, give me a code. 

Gin Stephens: Because we love it or you love it. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like I would love it. But that's the thing about the things we share. It's stuff we love and a lot of the things for example that I promote on Intermittent Fasting Stories that have ads for, it's because I've said to my ad team, "I would like to have like for example Green Chef because I use them. Please, get me Green Chef." And then, they did. Because I'm like, I really, really love them. Like, Daily Harvest. I'm like, "Please get me Daily Harvest," and then, they figured out how to. Because I was already using it and like for you, reMarkable, give me a code. [laughs] Because it's stuff we love, and we talk about it, and it feels better to promote something we love. I will never promote something I don't truly love.  

Melanie Avalon: Me neither. It's pretty much all I do. Just tell people what I love. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's really what we do. It's so much fun. I used to tell people what I loved all the time just as a random person. My elementary school is where it would be, you are like doing something about. But I'm like, "Ooh, let me tell you what I love. Let me tell you the best dry erase markers." And they were trying to be like, "Wow, these are better. We are mavens according to--"  

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe that's why we're podcasters.  

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, according to, what's his name? Malcolm Gladwell, 'we are mavens.'  

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, a really quick tangent. I just listened to an interview on Peter Attia with some guy who wrote a book, there's some book about like geneticism, and-- The Genetics of Talent 

Gin Stephens: I mean, is it Malcolm Gladwell? Because he has a book about Talent, but it's not about necessarily genetics.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, no, this guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Well, Malcolm Gladwell does talk about the 10,000 hours in his book.  

Melanie Avalon: Right. This guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Like the opposite of that?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: I'm sure that I haven't seen that one. Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell is who actually introduced me to the idea of there being 10,000 hours. If you practice something for 10,000 hours, you will be a master of it. So, this guy's saying, no?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, Peter Attia interviewed David Epstein. The book they were talking about was The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance. I've read a lot of Malcolm Gladwell stuff, and I'd read the 10,000 hours, and according to David Epstein, those studies are all incorrect, like, they were just wrong. He basically makes the case that it's not 10,000 hours, and it's genetic.  

Gin Stephens: I think that 10,000 hours might be an overly simple way of looking at it because for example, I could practice gymnastics for 10,000 hours and I would not be able to go to the Olympics. I would never be a great gymnast. I don't have the right genetics like you're saying. But if you do, like for example, Will-- my son, Will is an amazingly gifted trombone player, who wasn't going to do music when he went to Davidson Fine Arts, we'd already signed up for something else, and then we were picking Calla, we walked in the music room to pick up Cal, and they had like, the new students were looking at the equipment. Will picked up a trumpet, never had held a brass instrument before. It's really hard to make a sound on the mouthpiece of a trumpet and a trombone. I don't know if you've ever tried.  

Melanie Avalon: I think I tried once in middle school and I was like, "This is not for me." Oh, yeah, that's what it was. It's like, when you do the band class or like to see if you actually want to do band and you're like, "Nope." Oh, I was like, "No." [giggles]  

Gin Stephens: Well, Will picked it up, had never touched one, held it to his lips, and made a beautiful sound the first time. And the girl that we were actually picking up said, "Mr. Kennedy, come listen to this." I thought, she was a student. Will played it for Mr. Kennedy, and the guys like, "Sign up for band." [laughs] So, we went and switched everything, and we got to the-- I mean, Will was first year All-State Band. He also put in the hours. I really do think you have to have a combination of talent and the practice. I think, you can't do without both, right?  

Melanie Avalon: I think so. They were talking about that a lot in the interview. I'll put a link to in the show notes. It was David Epstein on Peter Attia. The Peter Attia episode was called How a range of experience leads to better performance in a highly specialized world? which is about one of David Epstein's other books. They were talking about that. Like the nuances and complexities of talent versus--  

Gin Stephens: Practice.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You got to have a little bit of both. Like I said, there is no way-- you know, my mom was a dance teacher. I do not have a ballet body. My legs are not right, I'm not limber. I can get more limber. I know I could increase my-- But I'm never going to have the lines, the long legs. I'm not built that way. So, I could practice for 10 million hours. [laughs] I wasn't going to be a ballerina. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.  

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Melanie Avalon: So, a lot of listeners will DM me on Instagram, and ask questions, and also on my Facebook group, IF Biohackers which everybody should join, and I try to answer everybody that I can, and this one listener reached out to me, we were first talking because she was playing around with her ZOE, the ZOE program that Gin and I've both done, which is where you eat muffins at certain macronutrients, and you were a CGM, and you see how your body processes carbs and fat, and you see about your gut microbiome. So, in any case, she had gotten back her ZOE results. Oh, and she said, I could say her name. I think she wanted me to say her name. Her name was Tracy.  

Gin Stephens: Hello, Tracy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And so, she has gotten back her ZOE results and her blood sugar was good. It was 74 but her fat control was 57, which was not so good. She'd been fasting for 20 hours, and she'd been doing keto, and she was talking to me because she was saying that, she's never satisfied and she's not losing weight, and that she was eating beef, fish, low carb, always under 40 grams in medium fat, and then etc. And so, I told her, I was like, "Have you tried upping your protein and have you possibly tried high protein, high carb, low fat," which I would have suggested anyways? But especially with her ZOE results, which were showing that she was good with carbs, not so good with fat, and I just thought this was such an interesting conversation, and I wanted to share it because of her experience, because people are so scared often to-- if they've been doing low carb to switch to high carb, low fat. They're just convinced they're going to gain weight. I'm just like I always have to explain that, if you're doing fasting and you're doing high carb, low fat and actually low fat and especially if you have a smaller eating window, which you know, she was doing a four-hour eating window, at the very least, it's unlikely you're going to gain weight, even if you gain like water weight.  

Gin Stephens: Like four pounds. Right. For me, the low carb effect was four pounds, I would start a low-carb diet, I would immediately drop four pounds and then I never lost another pound again ever no longer matter how long I did it. And then, the minute I introduced carbs again, backup four pounds. So, my glycogen storage water weight issue is four pounds. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And the thing is, so, besides that four pounds it's unlikely you're going to actually gain weight if you're actually doing low fat. Because protein does not easily become fat, carbs actually don't easily become fat, and then if you're fasting everyday as well, it's unlikely. So, you can at least know that. Like at the very least, I'm probably not going to gain weight which is what most people's fear is. So, I was asking her about it, she said, "I haven't tried high carb, low fat. I'm kind of nervous. I usually stay under 40 grams of carbs and fat is usually 70 to 80 grams." 

I encouraged her more to try it, and she said, "I'm going to try. I'm nervous, but I'm definitely going to try. I appreciate you." And then, I explained a little bit what I just said to you. So, the first day she reported back, she said, "Yesterday, I had all protein with raspberries, and strawberries, and blueberries, I woke up feeling really good, I checked my ketones and my blood, and my ketones were 0.6, and my blood was 71." So, her blood sugar was 71, and she's still high ketones. So, she was very surprised and she said like, "How low is too low for fat? Not really eating anything with fat and other than my protein, do you think that's okay? I almost reached for the nuts but that's a slippery slope." And I told her that, if you're eating animal protein at least you're probably getting fat in there. So, I told her not to stress about the fat issue, especially, because she was eating chicken breast, 4% beef, and fish. And when-- then I told her that nuts, nuts, yes, nuts can be a slippery slope, and those would be adding some fat.  

So, then she kept doing it, and then she reported back again a few days later, and she said, "This is very interesting. I am on--" Oh, no. She says it was day two. She said, "I'm on day two with protein and fruit. I have more energy after fasting 20 or 21 hours than I've ever had before. My ketones are higher within the last two days than they have been in the last couple of weeks. The only thing is, I don't know how long I can keep eating the fruit and protein. But for now, I'm just going to enjoy it and I'm down a pound. It's probably all water, though."  

Gin Stephens: Well, I wouldn't say so, especially, if she's introduced more carbs. If she's down a pound and has reintroduced carbs that would not be water weight. That would be fat loss in my mind.  

Melanie Avalon: So, then she said-- the next day, she said, "Oh, my gosh, I'm down another pound, what?" And then, she reported back the next day, she said, "I'm so happy about this new way of eating. I'm actually even eating dates and I feel amazing, low fat for the win, I appreciate you." So, I didn't share that to say everybody needs to do low fat. I just found it so inspiring for people who maybe fasting, maybe doing one of the approaches, possibly low carb or keto. And if it's not working, it's okay to try something else and it might work.  

Gin Stephens: Here's what stands out to me. She followed the ZOE recommendations. See, if you read the science written by somebody who loves low carb or keto, they tell you all the reasons why it's how everyone should eat, and it's very convincing, and then you're like, "I'm going to do that," and then, like her, you're like, "You know what? I don't feel satisfied. I'm not really liking this. It's doesn't feel right." Well, her ZOE shows why. She has great blood sugar control, not as great fat control. So, she flip-flopped it, matched her ZOE recommendations. They're not just giving everybody the same ZOE recommendations, right? We're all getting personalized ones. She started eating based on that and she felt better.  

Now, I don't know that she has to just stick to fruit and protein. I would like to see her add in some other carbs. They give you lists, and scores, and dig into their app, and look into your score. You make-- craft a meal that has a high score using their app. That's why it's there. Don't feel scared. She's scared. We're scared to change our diet, right? If you feel like one way is like "best." She had gotten in her mind, "I got to be doing this low carb. That's what my body wants and needs." But number one, she wasn't satisfied. I was never satisfied on low carb. When she switched to something that fit her body better, she was satisfied and losing weight. Love it. 

Melanie Avalon: And I saw this exact same thing. I've seen it with a lot of people but there's another girl that follows me on Instagram. She was doing carnivore for the longest time. We were having a dialogue about, how I do lean protein and fruit. She was super, super nervous to try. But then, she finally did and it's just funny because it's always the exact same sentiments. It was the same thing that this girl said. She was saying like, "I have so much energy all of a sudden, like I'm full, I just feel better." I know you were saying like adding in other different types of carbs, but I do think there is a subset of people that do really well on a fruit and protein type approach. 

Gin Stephens: But you'll never know if you're going to do better with other ones unless you try. Just because you're doing well on fruit and protein, it doesn't mean you're not going to do-- I mean, keep in mind. The ZOE is also been looking at your gut microbiome because they're not just blindly making recommendations. It's based on your control and your gut microbiome. So, you can trust that they've got some scientifically based data from you that they're making these recommendations on. That's all I'm saying. Maybe not everyone's going to be great with the same things like corn, I don't know. But if it doesn't work for your gut, but that doesn't mean that it won't work for someone else's. 

Melanie Avalon: We know what's interesting about the ZOE thing because that was a really good point about how Tracy switch to what matched her ZOE. But what's interesting is that, my ZOE, I'm good with fat and not good with carbs, but what I do is pretty much high carb, low fat with fasting and that still does work for me. So, I think there's something to even if you're not good at processing carbs, I think, if one is going to process carbs and they're not good at processing carbs doing it in a lower fat context, it can be key for a lot of people.  

Gin Stephens: Well, see now for me, I'm going to just say, maybe, it's because you always have it with protein. If I have high carb, low fat in isolation, I feel awful.  

Melanie Avalon: Without protein or with protein?  

Gin Stephens: Or, without protein or fat. I really eat and I got to have some fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Without protein, I would be starving.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If I don't have enough-- I feel better with mixed meals, honestly. I'm more likely to have-- and not all carbs are the same but as we know with bio-individuality, but certain-- if I just have really low fat, if I just ate certain fruits by themselves, if I just ate pineapple for example, I don't think I'd feel good.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't eat fruit by itself. I would be miserable. It has to be with a protein. The [unintelligible [00:36:22] people, which is basically where that idea really exists a lot, that high protein, high fruit, they like the fruit because it mitigates some of the stress response of eating just protein. One thing I love about ZOE though I'm very, very impressed with-- So, when you do it, you actually have a call with one of the people there. I have been sending my contact there. She's not special not special for me because I work with ZOE, this is the contact through just doing the ZOE program. I've been asking her so many questions about different foods in the app, and how they relate to certain scores, and I'm very impressed. She has checked on every single question that I've asked. Sometimes, it takes her over a week because she's asking the science team, but she always gets back to me. It's very, very impressive. [unintelligible [00:37:10]. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm impressed with them just in general. Oh, we are. Actually, I'm going to be having a webinar with Tim Spector in my community in January. I'm so excited. It's going to be just for people who are in the DDD community. They'll be able to join like-- 500 people will be able to join the Zoom call live, and then it'll be play but it'll only be in the community. But I've never actually talked to him person to person. So, I'm excited. You have, you've talked to him. He wrote the foreword for Clean(ish), which is thrilling because I love him. Anyway, so, I'm going to have face to face webinar with him for my community.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, congratulations on that by the way. It's so exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: The foreword.  

Gin Stephens: I know. It really is. I'm just really grateful to have that connection with him because I've been a fan of his, before I ever wrote my first book or appeared on my first podcast. I was just a person and I read The Diet Myth and it blew my mind. And it really informed me, I learned so much. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I'm going to be a perpetual fan girl my entire life. I interact with these people, I'm just so excited. It's just very surreal, even though, I've had hundreds of guests.  

Gin Stephens: Well, we don't take it for granted, right? We know that they are special people and we're grateful for the opportunity to be able to talk to them.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: And everyone's so nice. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know, I know, I know. I think on Friday I'm getting together with hopefully knock-on wood. Dr. Zielinski, who wrote that Essential Oil book. I didn't realize he lives in Atlanta. So, I'm getting together with him and his wife for dinner. I'm so excited.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that. It's so fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Already. So, we have a question from Josh. The subject is: 'Suggestions for my wife?' Josh says, "Hey, gals, I discovered your podcast a few months ago as I began intermittent fasting. Your information is very valuable and I have learned a great deal from you. My wife dabbled in fasting about a year or so ago, but struggled and backed out. Since, I have started shortly after Valentine's Day 2020, she decided to start again. However, she again is struggling and told me very recently that she gained five pounds in about four days of clean fasting and is taking a break from it once again. She's convinced that the only way she can lose weight is via calorie counting. Background, she is 30 years old. In the last year or so, she had a tubal ligation and prior to that tried numerous forms of contraceptives. She and I are pretty certain that her hormones are all over the board, mood swings, acne, heavy periods, constant stuffiness, etc. She recently started taking primrose and flax daily to begin correcting hormonal imbalances, but has stopped because of a suspected food intolerance that is currently being tested by Everlywell. The results should be here any day. I am unsure exactly of what she ate inside her window. I just know it was an eight-hour window. Her and I have tried talking about IF, but I can be abrasive and the talks don't go well. Any thoughts or advice you may have would be great as I just want her to feel better about her health and appearance. I know IF would help, if not eradicate the issues over time, but any advice would be better received from you gals."  

Gin Stephens: All right. So, Josh, I love that your wife is interested, she's intrigued with the idea of fasting, but struggling, and I'm glad that you want to help her. So, there are two things that pop out at me as so important. First of all, she gained five pounds in four days of a clean fast. It is 100% impossible to gain five pounds of fat in four days. I don't really say that, but I can't imagine [laughs] I know it's impossible for your wife, but what she was eating in eight hours. But I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would really be able to store five pounds of fat in four days, especially, if they've just started fasting. So, that's the good news.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can I just comment really quick on that?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: That'd be really hard to do. Even if you literally took in all the calories needed for that, the body does not want to gain five pounds of fat that fast. 

Gin Stephens: No. But so, that's not what happened. She did not gain five pounds of fat. She is somebody it sounds like to me that is very scale focused, but fluctuations mess her up. So, she needs to learn get a long-term approach with that. But also, she had an eight-hour window, but she only did it for four days. So, here is what I want you to have her do. I want you to buy her a paperback copy of Fast. Feast. Repeat, not just because I want to sell her a book, but by the way, Melanie, this is super exciting. Fast. Feast. Repeat has been number one in weight loss for like, I don't know, a week or two now. Number one every day. I look at it, it's been number one. Like Obesity Code is not number one, and I love Jason Fung, I love The Obesity Code. But it's just so much fun to see Fast. Feast. Repeat number one. So, anyway, I really think she needs to read it herself. You can tell her all day long, but she's got to read it from me. That's the best way.  

Have her start with the 28-Day FAST Start chapter. Even though, that's not chapter one because it wouldn't flow well for that to be the first chapter, but have her start reading the 28-Day FAST Start chapter first, where she's going to weigh and measure before she starts, and then she's never going to weigh and measure again until day 29. Then her scale can go crazy and also, she won't see it. Also, you know, it's fine to start with an eight-hour window, especially, if you're choosing the fast start approach where you're easing in. But if weight loss is her goal, an eight-hour window may not be her weight loss sweet spot. A lot of guys can just boom, do an eight-hour window, boom, they lose the weight. Women are different. Our bodies have different needs, we may not need as much food as that. So, an eight-hour window is probably not her weight loss sweet spot. That doesn't mean it's not a great place to start and it doesn't mean that it won't be her sweet spot. I know women who especially, if they're more restrained eaters. They're used to eating slightly and that feels good to them. Maybe, an eight-hour window is perfect. For someone like me, I like to eat a hearty meal, eight-hour window was a disaster.  

She needs to also really understand the difference between low-calorie dieting and why intermittent fasting is so different in the body. That's all fully explained in the introductory chapters of Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, she can start with a 28-Day Fast Start, then go back to the beginning and read through it, and really understand how a low-calorie diet lets us down. Because very few of us, I mean, I'm not going to say it's impossible because that would be wrong. There are people who can long term do a low-calorie diet and through sheer will and determination and because they can stick to it and they keep their calories low enough, they can lose the weight and keep it off. But that's not what happens for most of us. We might be able to lose the weight, but then we rebound weight gain or there it's back again. We yo-yo. That's how it was for me. You can only white knuckle a low-calorie diet for so long for most of us. Before your body starts to rebel and then you're binging, and then you're overeating, then you're like, "This low-calorie diet, I hate it." Then, you regain the weight, you feel like you failed, but really, it was your body doing what it does when it thinks you're starving. So, all throughout Fast. Feast. Repeat I explain why fasting is different from those typical low-calorie diets.  

So, I really think that's the best thing. Let me explain it to her through the form of Fast. Feast. Repeat, have her start with a 28-Day Fast Start chapter, then go back through the part about low-calorie dieting and the Biggest Loser study and all of that, and the Minnesota Starvation experiment, then you really understand it and you start reading about it, you're like, "That's exactly how I felt when I did a low-calorie diet." And now, you understand why and you can like be relieved like, "Oh, I didn't fail. When I regained all the weight. It was my body." She also needs to really focus on the 'Scale, Schmale' chapter because if she is seeing the weight fluctuate up five pounds, I mean, as women our weight can go up five pounds because we're starting our period. But if those kinds of fluctuations make her give up, then she's got to have a long-term approach and in the Scale Schmale chapter I explain how to do that. Only her trend matters, not the day-to-day fluctuations. All right, that's all I got to say about that. I'm like Forrest Gump today.  

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Gin Stephens: Shall we go on to our next question. Did you have anything you wanted to add?  

Melanie Avalon: I did. I just wanted to comment that this kind of reminds me of what we were talking about earlier with Tracy. So, Tracy was so, so nervous about switching to high carb, low fat and it's kind of like with Josh's wife, she's super, super nervous about not calorie counting. So, I think, it requires a paradigm shift. If the person can understand and Josh rather than telling her this, you can just have her listen to us talking about it. But if the person can understand that, maybe that paradigm that they're holding about diet might not actually be necessarily true, there's a lot of potential freedom on the other side. When it comes to IF, again, like Gin was saying, eight hours might not have been short enough of an eating window for her. If she tries a shorter eating window, even if she's not calorie counting, it's harder to overeat in a shorter eating window calorie wise.  

So, she really doesn't have to be calorie counting with fasting if she can find the window that works for her and still be getting the benefits. If she does want another added "safety" to that eating window and that not calorie counting, things I was talking about earlier with like looking at the macros. You know, if she tries eating either low fat or low carb in that eating window as well that will make it even less likely that she will, at the very least gain weight changing to the fasting. And on top of that there's just so many potential benefits with the fasting, possibly, it can help with her hormones and also hoping that she figures out the food intolerances that she's having. But there's definitely, just goes back to like Tracy saying like, I sense a lot of fear with her, it might be unfounded. 

Gin Stephens: And also, four days is just really not enough time to judge fasting. That's why I had the 28-Day FAST Start and I'm so glad I thought of that putting that in the book. It was through all those years of guiding people through the Intermittent Fasting Support groups, and realizing that if people could just make it a certain amount of time, they would be okay. But it was getting them there. If you're expecting, you're going to lose weight in the first four days and then you don't, then you're like, "Well, this is crap. I'm not doing this." But if you go into it knowing, "Hey, I'm not even supposed to lose weight at the beginning and my body is adjusting, I'm going to learn how to fast first, then I could focus on weight loss." If you go in with that expectation, now, you've let your body adjust, you're much less likely to quit. I just saw that over time, so, I'm really glad I actually thought about how to put it in the book.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Shall we do one more question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. This is from Erin and the subject is: 'Microbiome.' "Hello, Gin and Melanie, I've been listening to your podcast for about a year and I love it. I've learned so much and appreciate your layman's approach to some of the sciency topics. One area that I've learned a lot about thanks to you, ladies, is our microbiome. I've kind of become obsessed with gut health and digestion. My question for you is about prebiotics and probiotics. Can you get enough via food or need to take a supplement as well? Are there better kinds than others? Basically, what's the skinny on prebiotics and probiotics and what are your recommendations? Thank you for taking the time to review my question and keep up the good work, Erin." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Erin. So, thank you so much for your question. So, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I also can say them pretty simply, which is that I think the gut microbiome is so, so important. I think it's affecting so many things and I also think we know so very little about it. I think the more we learn about it, the more we realize that we don't know that much. It's shocking everything that the gut microbiome affects. So, we don't even realize like, for example, I was researching berberine recently. A supplement that you can take to lower your blood sugar. A lot people will say that that dihydroberberine form is more easily absorbed in the body and so I was researching it and actually, the way we absorb berberine normally is we take in berberine and then our gut microbiome actually converts berberine to dihydroberberine and then it goes across our cell wall and then it converts back into berberine, which is super crazy. The point of all that is that, the gut microbiome is doing so many things with how we process food and we don't even realize it. That said, as far as modulating our gut microbiome via probiotics and prebiotics, so, what are the differences?  

Probiotics are the actual microbiome strains, so the different gut bacteria. Prebiotics are the foods that feed the gut microbiome. So, they help you grow certain gut bacteria. There's a lot of debate out there about whether or not you can grow new bacteria if you don't already have that species. That's something, I actually, recently interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard and [giggles] it was a very interesting episode. We talked about that and I talked about it with Tim Spector as well. One of the things that Tim Spector pointed out was that, it's easier to actually wipe out your bad bacteria than it is to grow good bacteria, all of that to say, choosing between prebiotics and probiotics. So, probiotics, I just think it's like this swamp land where we don't know very much. I think try different probiotics, see how they make you feel, definitely give them some time if you are trying them. Some people might benefit from particularly low histamine producing probiotics because some probiotics are high in histamine or can produce histamine. So, you might want to look for a low histamine probiotic blend.  

We often work with BiOptimizers. They have a P3-OM probiotic. It's a single strain probiotic. I do really like that probiotic. But when it comes to probiotics, it's really just try once and see what they do for you. I actually really like fermented foods for helping introduce probiotic cultures to your gut. As far as prebiotics, it's ironic because in a way almost every food is a prebiotic. Because a prebiotic just means that it's feeding your gut bacteria, and pretty much everything we eat feeds some sort of bacteria in some way. But the concept of prebiotic is that it's beneficial. I personally am not a fan of like prebiotic supplements. I would rather eat the foods that will cultivate a certain gut microbiome. I just don't see any reason for it. It seems like we're trying to feed things that we might not even know if they're there. It's a refined form of food. I would just go to the foods.  

Gin Stephens: Eat food that's prebiotic. Yeah. Me, too.  

Melanie Avalon: So, do you have thoughts about that, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I just you know, in general, it's better to get it from food. Both the prebiotics and probiotics like Melanie said, with the fermented foods and everything, so, I don't take a prebiotic or a probiotic. I do eat fermented foods. When I think about it or when I can, I eat a high vegetable diet. I try to get a lot of different variety of vegetables in my diet. Tim Spector talks about this. I see him on Instagram him always mentioning, trying to have a wide variety of different plant foods. I think you're better off to try to eat, I don't know, 20 or 30, I can't remember. Some big number of different plant foods every week because then you're also going to get the phytochemicals that we're not even knowing what they are all in there. There're thousands of them in those foods. So, you're going to be getting so many benefits that you don't even know you're getting, but your body knows what to do with it. So, try to eat a variety of different foods and I'm talking about the vegetable foods and fruits. But I don't need as many fruits.  

Melanie Avalon: And then, it also might depend on your actual resident microbiome, how you tolerate those foods or not. Check out last week's episode because I think that's when we talked about the study that looked at people eating fermented foods versus a high-fiber diet. I'm pretty sure, Gin that we talked about it last week.  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember when that was, but it was just interesting if you've been eating the standard American diet long term, you're very likely to have a damaged gut lining because that's what happens with a standard American diet. So, you're going to have to take the time to rebuild it and that's the part that's tricky. So, people eat the foods, they're like, "These foods make me so sick or they don't work for my gut." Well, it's because your gut is damaged that the foods don't work. You've got to slowly rebuild your gut. I love, I can't pronounce the author's last name. It's Will something with the B, the book, Fiber Fueled, such a good book. I would read it-- Have you interviewed him, you have? Haven't you?  

Melanie Avalon: I have the contact for him. He was supposed to book and he never did.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I love his book. Fiber Fueled, great book. I talk about it in Clean(ish), but get Fiber Fueled and read it. Who was that guy we had on that was the gut guy before? Both Fiber Fueled and-- 

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Rochelle.  

Gin Stephens: Maybe. But both of them talk about how your gut can heal. That's the takeaway. Your gut can heal, and so, maybe grains don't work for you now, but you can heal. We're supposed to be able to tolerate a wide variety of foods in a healthy body. So, it's all about healing the body, but I really think Fiber Fueled is a great book. I would check that one out.  

Melanie Avalon: I need to read it. I was going to read it when I thought he was coming on the show. So, I'm going to reach back out to them today.  

Gin Stephens: Somebody, actually, today asked me if I'd ever heard of it. I'm like, "Not only have I heard of it, but I recommend it highly." He also is working with ZOE now. I read his book before he was associated with ZOE. I think he's on the board of directors or something. But when I saw that they had added him to the board of directors. I was like, "I already love him," and he's from Charleston anyway.  

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes, which will have-- and full transcript and everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode244. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, but enjoyed it, and I'll talk to you next week.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

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Dec 12

Episode 243: Fasted Exercise, Post Surgery Biohacks, Antibiotics, Probiotics, Fermented Foods, Nut Milk, Soy, Veganism, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 243 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Brittany - COFFEEEEEE

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 243 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. Winter aka sick season is upon us and we all know that this is the time of year to take extra care to protect ourselves from germs and bacteria. Of course, you can do everything right, wash your hands, keep your hands away from your face, carry around some hand sanitizer, but you still get sick. That's why you need to protect your body from the inside not just the out. And you can do that by building up your immune system with some high quality and high strength probiotics. That's why I'm really excited about P3-OM. P3-OM is a patented probiotic that might be the most effective probiotic ever developed. P3-OM fights bacteria and strengthens immunity. It's basically a germ fighting superhero. But it also helps digestion, it speeds up metabolism, and increases energy throughout the day, which is way more than you might have thought probiotics could do. And just when I thought P3-OM couldn't get any more powerful, I watched a video which you can see at p3om.com/ifpodcast of the probiotic literally breaking down a piece of steak. After I saw that, I was all in. You guys are going to be so amazed, too. Definitely, check out that video.  

Here's some more awesome news. You can get 10% off P3-OM right now by going to p3om.com/ifpodcast and typing in the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And here's the thing. If you order it and it's not everything you hoped for, BiOptimizer support team will give you all of your money back, no questions asked. So, if you want to protect yourself from whatever bug is floating around this year, and take your digestion to a new level, visit p3om.com/ifpodcast to get a 10% discount with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right now back to the show.  

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 243 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I'm getting super excited. Well, the time, this comes out December 13th, we are just really close to the release of Clean(ish). 

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: It is and so, I have been flushing out my plans for what we're going to do. And we're going to have a book study in the Delay, Don't Deny Community.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, anybody who's listening, if you would like to take part in that book study, go ahead and preorder now. Even if you don't want to take part in the book study, I'd love you to preorder now. It comes out January 4th, you're going to want to have it. But if you go to ginstephens.com/community, you can join the community. And we're going to be doing the book study right there. Like we're going to be walking our way because Clean(ish) is not the kind of book you sit down and you read the whole book, and then you're like, "All right, I read that book." No, it's like you work through it. It was written by a teacher and it's very teachery. [laughs] So, it's like a step-by-step process. So, we're going to go through the chapters and take our time, we're also going to be having a book study on the Life Lessons Podcast starting January 5th. So, January 4th, preorder now, January 4th is when you'll get the book. January 5th, an episode of Life Lessons will come out, getting us kind of started on the book study, then we'll have every other episode will be about Clean(ish) topics. And then in the DDD community, ginstephens.com/community, we'll be actually having a community book study where we work our way through it and support each other as we become more cleanish.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that is very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I have so much work to do. [laughs] But it's teacher work and I love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Did you finish recording the audiobook?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm so glad. I love to talk, but I don't love to read my books out loud. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a lot.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, recording a podcast, love it. Recording an audio book, would rather stab daggers into my eyes. Not really but you know what I mean.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is. It's a lot.  

Gin Stephens: It's tedious. The word is tedious.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited to read Clean(ish). I haven't read it yet.  

Gin Stephens: I know. I don't want to send you a copy till we have the good ones in. The ones that are out right now that people have the early reader copies. Like the moderators in my group got them and a few people got them, but there's a lot of formatting flaws in the early reader copy, because it was based on a very early version you know, how that works. And so, they didn't have the chapters formatted properly. So, you're reading and then there's something that looks like a heading, but it's really a new chapter title, and you can't really tell. We fixed all that. It's perfect now, but it's just weird in the early reader copies. I like it to be right when people see it.  

Melanie Avalon: I understand. I'm excited to read it.  

Gin Stephens: You need the good copy. So, anyway, January 4, it's coming out.  

Melanie Avalon: Although, depending on, I might listen to the audiobook actually. 

Gin Stephens: This is really a book it's-- I think its-- I know you love to listen to audiobooks. This is one, I mean, I'm not going to say no one get the audiobook. People will enjoy the audiobook, but I think you also want a paperback copy. This is one of those times when just the audio is not quite going to be enough if that makes sense. You want the paperback and you can supplement with the audiobook to listen to the chapter. I mean, it's totally up to you, but this is one you're going to want to look at.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, I might do the audiobook and then--  

Gin Stephens: I'll make sure you get a copy of the final. You do not have to buy one. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Well, also, preorder to support. Let me write that down.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I appreciate that. That's really nice of you, preorder the audible then if you think you want that.  

Melanie Avalon: I will. Oh, perfect. Yeah, that's what I'll do.  

Gin Stephens: You can use an Audible credit. Oh, my God, Audible is sponsoring this episode.  

Melanie Avalon: Are they really?  

Gin Stephens: I didn't even know but yes. [laughs] There'll be an ad coming later everyone at some point.  

Melanie Avalon: Listen to the Audible ad.  

Gin Stephens: But yes. So, you can use one of your Audible credits for Clean(ish). But you also are going to want the paperback for Clean(ish) just-- Like I said, it's not like Fast. Feast. Repeat., I feel like a lot of people would like to have the paperback for that one, but the Audible is enough if you're a really good listener. But for Clean(ish), I think you're going to want both. Not just because I'm trying to sell you two books, I'm not. 

Melanie Avalon: I understand exactly what you're saying. Some books, just because of the formatting and the content, they just need that print version for the full experience.  

Gin Stephens: Yes, you got it. So, anyway, I'm very excited about the book coming out, and I really hope people love it. I want people to really understand the 'ish' part. Because I know that when people read it, they're going to be wanting to do everything 100%. But it's the 'ish' that makes it doable. Because we can't do everything on day one. I don't do everything. I'm ish, cleanish. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited. So, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes to all of those things. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode243 

Gin Stephens: So, what's up with you? Tell me. 

Melanie Avalon: Can I tell you about my serrapeptase launch?  

Gin Stephens: I was knowing you would and excited about it. People haven't gotten it though, have they?  

Melanie Avalon: Some have.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, ooh, that's so exciting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We haven't talked since then. I was going to tell you but I was like, I'll just wait and tell you on the show. So, then, it's not repetitive. So, well, I have learned so much about so much [laughs] very short amount of time. So, as listeners are likely familiar, I released my first supplement, which is serrapeptase that we've been talking about for years on this show. Since, almost day one of the show, we've been talking about it. It's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it goes into your bloodstream, and it breaks down potentially problematic proteins, so, it can help things like allergies, and inflammation, and fibroids, and it helps with wound healing, and it may reduce cholesterol, and it can breakdown amyloid plaque, it just does so many things.  

Gin Stephens: And I tell you, I actually saw something about it the other day in the scheme of like COVID.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, there is a study about that, that I am not allowed to talk about.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, I just mentioned it, but I saw something about that because you know, you got to be really careful. You can't say you know anything about COVID but I saw it, and it made me think "Ooh, maybe I should take serrapeptase." 

Melanie Avalon: There's a really good study about serrapeptase and COVID. It's funny though, working with the company that I work with. We just want to be super careful. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Can't make any claims about COVID. But people can read the study themselves.  

Melanie Avalon: I have an epic blog post about it on my website. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptasescience, that's my original blog post that I wrote with a deep dive into the science, and it does have that study referenced. I was doing a shorter, modified version for the supplement website, which is avalonx.us. And I was talking with my partner and he was like, "You got to take out everything COVID." So, I still had it in the references. He's like, "Nope, [laughs] take it out of there." He's like, "Nothing on the site." Yes, if you want the full version, go to the melanieavalon.com. But in any case, things I have learned, so, I really wanted to do a midnight release because midnight releases are so exciting. It reminds me of, what things come out at midnight? Like Taylor Swift's music or book releases, Harry Potter. So, I want to do it for the excitement, nothing to do with my sleep cycle being a night person. So, I got so many comments from people saying that, a midnight release was really only for the night people. Like that it was wasn't fair for morning people. So, that was a lesson learned that I don't know, to be wary of that.  

Then, so, the day of the release, we realized there was something wrong in the website that I had created. Again, avalonx.us. So, they decided-- the company I work with, MD Logic, they decided to rebuild my entire website themselves, which was insane and brilliant and I'm so grateful. But so, they rebuilt all of it to fix that error. It went live beyond my control around like 11 instead of midnight. Once it did people started ordering because I guess they were checking, so, I was like, "Oh, well, people have been upset that it's a midnight release, so I'll just go ahead and announce it since it's up." So, I sent an email and I announced that it was up early, but then people got mad because they had set their alarm clocks for midnight, and they were like, "Why did you release it early? You said it was midnight." So, I learned so much. 

Gin Stephens: Well, and also, some things are out of our control because when you're releasing something new, it sometimes just happens. You just don't know how long it's going to take.  

Melanie Avalon: The site was going to go up at midnight, but then it went up early. I was trying to make people happy because I received feedback.  

Gin Stephens: I know. We try so hard.  

Melanie Avalon: I just want to make everybody happy. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Impossible. I've learned impossible through moving the community, we had the first one, the DDD social network, and the platform ended up being unacceptable. So, instead of using the whole--, we spent tens of thousands of dollars on that platform. So, for it to be unacceptable, we just abandoned it because that was not okay for the community. So, we lost money on that part of it, but anyway, we moved everybody. But no matter how hard we tried to move everybody in a way that made them all happy, there were people mad at me. And I'm like, "I just want you to know, I'm doing the best I can." Because the alternative would have been just to stay there and suffer through it being awful till the year was up but we didn't want to do that. So, no solution was perfect. That's what I'm trying to say with that story. No solution is perfect, you're just do the best you can, and if people get mad, and can't roll with it, there's nothing you can do. 

Melanie Avalon: The reason people were so eager was, I was pitching that it would probably sell out which I-- Oh, it was such a moment because I just really had no idea like would it sell out, but I thought it might, but I just didn't know how it was going to go, and it went so well. [giggles] So, it sold out-- the first run, sold out in less than eight hours. So, there was a big spike at around midnight, and then there was a big spike in the morning, but that's what I'm telling people.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, so the people, when I went early, it's not like people missed it.  

Melanie Avalon: But the first 300 bottles were super discounted. So, I think, yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Well, those super fans who were checking early, [laughs] they got lucky. That's what I think. Sorry, if the super fans just-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, there was about two hours where it said it was out of stock on the website, and that's when they were-- at MD Logic, they were trying to figure out if they could place another order. They were trying to forget the logistics of the second run. So, there was like a two-hour period where people were checking and thought that it was sold out and that they had missed it. So, I had to do like damage control, and then two hours later it was available for the second run to preorder. I realized, like, in my messaging, I said, "You can now preorder the second run, which would ship in December," but people thought that they couldn't order until December. I've just learned a lot about clarity. But in any case, the takeaway is that, it went so well, and you can order it now. You can preorder it. The people who have ordered, although, when this comes out, this will be a little bit older news, but people who ordered that first run, by the time this comes out there's should have shipped. They probably will have received it. And then people who are ordering from the current run assuming, it's not sold out. That is probably shipping around mid-December. So, I think when this, because this episode comes out mid-December, right?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, December 13th.  

Melanie Avalon: So, it should be shipping around that time. People listening right now, their orders should be shipping if they had already ordered at the second run. I'm just so grateful like I've just been walking around in the state of happiness, and gratitude, and excitement for a few reasons, oh, my God, I will start crying. Okay. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I get it. Look, when I was reading a section of Clean(ish) out loud where I talked about Cal, and his wife Kate, I started crying while I was reading the audiobook. I'm like, "I've got to read that again because now I'm crying." [laughs] We get emotional about stuff. I get it.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm just so grateful because this is something I've been wanting to do for so long, and the guy I work with, Scott at the company, we just really, really are on the same page, and understand each other, and it's just like the most beautiful power team. I'm so happy about how the product turned out, the serrapeptase. I get no GI distress with it, which is something that a lot of people experience. I've been noticing so many benefits from it. It's just really, really incredible, and amazing, and I'm so excited that everybody ordered, and that it sold out so fast, because I was so nervous about-- I really wanted to like, I guess, "perform” because I was working with this company, and I really wanted them to see that my audience really was interested.  

Gin Stephens: Well, because imagine if you had released it, and put it out, and you sold like five bottles.  

Melanie Avalon: My brother texted the next morning and was like, "How did it go?" I was like, "We sold out in less than eight hours." Then my mom was like, "Oh, good." She was like, "I was super worried that nobody was going to buy it." I was like, "Mom?" [laughs] She said, she said-- she said when my brother texted that she was like, "Oh, no. Don't ask that." But now I'm just really thrilled because so that serrapeptase now should be available ongoing. You shouldn't have to worry about it going out of stock, because hopefully we'll be on top of it. Now, we're developing my second one. I know probably the next five ones that I want to do because now, all the supplements I'm currently taking I want to make my own version because then I can really feel good about all of it, and then, I can have something I can really recommend to people. So, I'm really excited. So, the second one, I'm not going to say what it is, but I will say, it's something that we talked about a lot on this podcast, and people asked me for my recommended brand a lot.  

Gin Stephens: All right, does it start with M?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, well then, I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: I'll tell you off air.  

Gin Stephens: So, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, that was a long story, but I'm just so excited and listeners I would love, love, love, love to hear your experience with my brand specifically. And so, you can get it at avalonx.us. Some people have received their bottles and they're posting pictures of themselves with the bottles in the group and it makes me so happy.  

Gin Stephens: I know. That's how I feel when someone's holding Clean(ish). Like someone that's gotten the early reader copies, one of my moderators, or it just makes me really excited to see.  

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting to see, it's like your dreams manifested in a physical form.  

Gin Stephens: It's right because it comes out of your head, and then you make it happen, and then, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: The bottle like holding it like it's everything I could want. The way it looks, the actual product, I'm very excited.  

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited. Well, job well done.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. You, too.  

Gin Stephens: Thank you.  

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Melanie Avalon: Long intro. Shall we jump into some questions?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, the first question actually relates to what we were just talking about and I thought it would might be something good to clarify, especially, after telling you guys my whole story about my supplement launch. So, this comes from Bianca and the subject is: "What supplements to take! And Bianca says, "Hi. I always love hearing the information you ladies have to share. Sometimes I hear about new health trends, but I never jump on it until you guys have done your research and share it on the show. So, thank you for being a reliable source of information that I can trust to objectively evaluate all the new health packs. So, my question is this. What supplements do I need to take if I am generally healthy? I know, Melanie, you are obsessed with so many things, lol. But what are the supplements that I absolutely need to take? Do you ever suggest a multivitamin? I am 45 years old and I have to lose 30 to 40 pounds. I do take meds for an underactive thyroid. I could always use more energy or a mood booster, especially, once a month when I get my period. I don't get reflux or constipated." I just want to say, "I'm very jealous of you, Bianca."  

She says, "I don't get brain fog or anxious. My knees hurt a little from running but it seems like normal aging. I currently take ginkgo biloba, fish oil, and vitamin C. After binge hearing your shows, I suddenly feel the need to drink apple cider vinegar, chlorophyll, magnesium shots, serrapeptase?" And then she says, "(silkworm stuff and CBD oil)." Should I-- "For someone like me that has no specific complaints or ailments, would we need to supplement anything to our diet?" Gin, what do you take on a regular basis? Since you and I are closer in age perhaps you could share with me what you'd like to take. I also want to say, how much I appreciate the two different experiences.  

Gin Stephens: All right, well, I'm glad to answer this. But first I want to say one thing. I have realized that supplements are incredibly personal. What I take might not be right for you. Here's an example of that. One of my friends was taking some supplements that she said that changed her life. It's actually my friend, Sheri that cohosts Life Lessons with me. I'm like, "Oh, well I need to take that supplement that changed your life." So, I started taking it. I can't remember what it was. This is a couple of years ago maybe and I started getting this crazy anxiety and weirdness, and I'm like, "Could this be the supplements, I looked it up?" Yes. [laughs] She takes it. She has like a different genetic profile than me and it works for someone with her, whatever genetic, something or other that I don't have. So, I don't need that supplement. If you don't need it and you take it, it can lead anxiety. So, there are very few supplements that I would consider to be universal. Like serrapeptase for example, I took it for a while for a targeted reason. I had fibroids, I do think that it helped. I do think it has broad benefits for a lot of people, but I'm very keep it simple when it comes to supplements.  

I take magnesium every single day and I have for years. It helps me to sleep. I really notice a difference if I forget it. I did change my brand over the years. Right now, I'm doing BiOptimizers, and I think the brand I used to take changed their formulation because it stopped being effective for me. I think I wasn't absorbing it, whatever. So, it's really important to find a brand or something that works really well for you. So, I take that. As far as multivitamins go, there's a brand called Ritual that sponsors IF Stories and I do take that one, ritual.com/ifstories. It's really minimalist and clean. So, as far as like vitamins go, they really are transparent with their ingredients. As far as other supplements like as needed basis, like I had a little touch of a flu a few weeks ago. So, I supplemented with things that are known to boost the immune system, zinc, quercetin, C and D. But I just did that for that targeted period of time where I needed a little more immune system support, I felt. So, that's really it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, we are on very similar pages, and I think it's funny, because I think people might assume that I am about all the supplements all the time, and I'm really not. I'm actually pretty minimalist myself with supplements. Everything that you said, Gin about us being unique, and I'm all about the actually the minimal effective dose, because I went through a period where I was taking all the supplements and I got really overwhelmed with that. It's really hard to know what's doing what. So, I'm all about being very specific. There's a word being very, just puts the word.  

Gin Stephens: Intentional?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, intentional with what you're taking. So, the serrapeptase for example, I think, it has just such broad ranging benefits kind of like Gin mentioned that I think, most people can benefit from it in some capacity. So, it's one of the reasons I wanted to make it for my first one is, it is one of the only supplements that I actually have been taking consistently every day for years.  

Gin Stephens: And honestly, one reason I stopped was because I got spooked about things on Amazon, and not sure what brand to buy, and I was like, "Well, never mind." [laughs] I might would take a Melanie Avalon brand version.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. After developing it now, people were asking in the meantime until yours is available, which one should I order and I was like, "Honestly, I can't recommend any of them now." 

Gin Stephens: Once you understand, yeah, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: So, that's an example of one that I think most people can probably benefit from it in some capacity. Beyond that, so, Gin mentioned vitamin D, that's one where I think people really should be getting their blood levels tested for vitamin D, because I think, it's super important for so many things, and for immunity, and a lot of people are low. 

Gin Stephens: But you can't know unless you get it tested and that really helps you dial in what you need.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I love InsideTracker because they always test vitamin D, but your conventional doctor can run it as well. But you probably have to ask because most doctors aren't just randomly testing it. I think when it comes to things like digestive enzymes and HCl, that would be case by case basis of, do you have digestive issues and do those help you? They helped me so much but if you don't have digestive issues, if you're not experiencing that, I wouldn't worry about it and it sounds like Bianca, she doesn't experience digestive-- Well she talks about not getting reflux or constipated.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't take any kind of digestive support stuff, zero.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm jealous. It's a gamechanger for me taking the digestive support. Then, so, vitamin C, I actually don't recommend that, especially, if you're taking it while fasted. I don't recommend it as like a daily supplement while fasted.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. That's also important. Supplements, not all supplements are great during the fast but some are. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think there are studies on this taking vitamin C can actually be counterproductive for your body's endogenous production of antioxidants. So, I don't really recommend taking vitamin C is like a thing. But if you get sick for example like Gin said that might be a case where you'd want to high dose vitamin C. Fish oil, I'm perpetually on the fence about. I go back and forth. I'll listen to one person being like never take fish oil and then I'll listen to Rhonda Patrick doing an episode, I'm like, "Oh, everybody should be taking fish oil." But I know one thing. I think, most of them are often rancid. 

Gin Stephens: Right. Quality is so-- The problem with supplements, that's why I'm so skeptical of like, I have a section in Clean(ish) where I talk about, like she said, she takes ginkgo biloba, and I have a whole section on Clean(ish) where I talk about a study they did where it like, wasn't even in there. I mean, it was crazy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's crazy. Actually, speaking of, because I've been getting questions about what testing we do. So, for my serrapeptase for example, it's tested for four different things, pre and post production. So, when they're creating the supplement they test it for toxins, for purity, for active ingredient, for-- It's on the website. I can put a link to in the show notes. But basically, that it is what it says it is that it is effective, and then they do a separate test just on the serrapeptase because they have to do an enzyme test to make sure the enzyme is active, and then they do a batch test, which is where with a finished product, they randomly pull jars and tests that it's still everything that it says it is. 

Gin Stephens: Like quality control-- random quality control stuff, that makes sense.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I think that is so important and minor tested for heavy metals and mold which is so, so huge to me. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you don't want to be putting that in. [laughs] We want to be taken out the bad stuff not putting more bad in. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I just think this is all so, so important. The fish oil for example, I shudder thinking about it now, like we often order that off of Amazon, and Amazon, especially, during the summer are really, really hot warehouses. I just would not order fish oil off of Amazon. It is probably been sitting, especially, in the hot months.  

Gin Stephens: Well, then you have to look at, that's not the only place but the warehouse or a truck. I mean, it's hard to know about anything. Honestly, who knows how it got to the store. So, when you really start thinking about supplements, you start going down the rabbit hole of-- That's why I take so few. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And even serrapeptase is temperature sensitive. So, that's another case where you'd want to be buying direct from somewhere where it's been climate controlled. So, if I ever do a fish oil in the future, I think, it would need to be a little bit down the line because I think it's going to be super expensive. Because I want to do all the criteria to keep it cold shipping and all of that. That's probably going to be like down the line if I do a fish oil. But I'm just looking at the other things she said. Interesting that from the show, she thinks she should drink apple cider vinegar. I guess we talked about taking it like before eating maybe. Chlorophyll, I do take chlorophyll. It's good for iron levels, but I take that with my food. Magnesium, Gin said, she benefits from, CBD is something that has helped me so much, but I realize that people respond differently to CBD.  

Gin Stephens: They really do. Yeah, one of my family members responds great to it like amazing. It helps with mood and for me though, it made me-- I took it for a while because it feels [unintelligible [00:32:55] and I took it and I tried to find my right dose but basically, I never found a dose that made me feel like better, different like it was doing anything. Does that make sense? So, I stopped taking it. But I believe in it because I've seen it make a difference. So, I'm not like anti-CBD. I think it is powerful and amazing. But you need to meet with the people and they will talk you through it. If there's a right dose for you, they'll help you find it. But the answer might be, you don't need that.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. For me, it's a game changer. Like a game changer. It makes me sad because they run whitelisted ads through my Facebook account. So, basically like you might be on Facebook, and you'll see a sponsored ad for Feals from my account. I mean, CBD is such a touchy topic. So, a lot of comments are very abrasive and intense and I'm like, "I shouldn't be like I'm not making this up. Like this supplement changes my life."  

Gin Stephens: No, I've really seen it make an amazing difference in other people. I've seen it firsthand with my eyes in my house. But for me, the magnesium helps me sleep, and I don't have anything that I need help with that. I don't know. Whatever it does in your brain, my brain is okay with. I've got other things in my brain that might need you know like the magnesium, but we're also different. I really think it's the thing that, like now, I pretty much sleep through the night all the time. I think it took a while of finding my dose and doing it consistently, but I take it every single night, and I think it has modulated my entire cannabinoid system. 

Gin Stephens: That's good. You know what changed mine is changing my magnesium. Honestly, I am sleeping great, and I am even drinking a little bit more alcohol, and it's making a huge difference. It's not making me wake up. After if I have like a glass of wine, I don't instantly wake up not able to sleep like I had been for so long. It could, maybe, my body is calmed down after going through menopause, that could be it, because some people told me they had trouble with one. While they were going through menopause then it got better, but I really think it's changing my magnesium that made a difference. But it really, once you find what works for your body, huge difference.  

Melanie Avalon: We do have a discount for Feals which is I think one of our best offers and it's feals.com/ifpodcast. It changes around, but it's usually 40% to 50% off somewhere in there. 

Gin Stephens: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: But like Gin said, like I've said, it's really just a matter of individuality. Like another one I take every single day is berberine. I've seen wearing a CGM that that really does really nice things for my blood sugar levels. It actually really helps my digestive issues as well, which I didn't anticipate. But that's something that I just really like in my proverbial and real cabinet. That'd be something where I think if you've done a CGM, or you've taken blood tests, and you've seen high blood sugar levels, that might be something to play with. But yeah, we could say a lot more about supplements. But something else I will suggest is not trying multiple supplements at one time, because then like new ones--  

Gin Stephens: Don't change everything up. Think of it as a one at a time tweaking kind of thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, another one I think a lot of people can benefit from in general is NR and NMN, which are the NAD precursors. But that's another one that I really want to do one, but it's also going to need to be down the line because that is another supplement that needs to be cold, and it's light sensitive, and they just don't really talk about that. So, that's something that I would want to-- cold ship for example. I've so many plans. But yeah, hopefully, that was helpful.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think it was. There's just so much confusion about supplements. And it's because again, we're all different. So, when my friend said, "Take this one, it's--" or she said, "I take this one." She didn't tell me to take it. She said, "I take this, it's changed my life." I'm like, "Well, I'm going to change my life, and it made me worse and bad and awful." Then I was like, "Well, I've never going to just take something because someone said they take it again."  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Another one I do think a lot of people might benefit from is depending on what their issues are as progesterone. I'll be airing an episode, I think, in January with Dr. Michael Platt, and he pretty much thinks that progesterone can fix all ailments for everybody all the time, which I don't know if it's that intense, but I personally have been taking it, and it's radically helped my sister, got rid of her PMDD. I can put a link in the show notes. I have a discount code for them.  

Gin Stephens: That's another one, I would recommend having working with a doctor who's skilled in that and testing your levels. Dr. Anna Cabeca always says, "Test, don't guess" [laughs] which I like. Just because you don't know what you need.  

Melanie Avalon: He makes the argument that with progesterone, there's not really a issue with-- 

Gin Stephens: Taking too much.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that like, basically, if you have any sort of issue that might be related which really, he thinks is almost everything. You can start taking it and you'll see pretty fast if it's helping.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, that's interesting. So, he has his own kind of it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and it's amazing.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, send me that info. I might look at that.  

Melanie Avalon: I bumped up his episode earlier than it should have been released just because I want to tell everybody about it. And we just got the discount code. So, I will put a link in the show notes, too. I think it's like a 10% off code. Yeah, that's the one. I said this multiple times, but my sister has had PMDD for 10 years, and they got rid of it in a week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, shall we move on to our next question from Paula?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and she has a few different questions.  

Gin Stephens: She does. Paula says, "Hello, again. Thank you" and more random questions. You want just take them one at a time? 

Melanie Avalon: Sure.  

Gin Stephens: She says, "Gin and Melanie, thank you for answering my questions on the podcast. You're my Monday workout buddies and I am a fan." I love that. People will often tell me they love to walk and listen to the podcast or my other podcast. I'm sure people tell you that, too. I just I love it. It's like we're regular and we're in their head.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. Few DM me on Instagram or few reach out to me on Facebook groups, I really try to engage with everybody who reaches out to me. It's getting hard. But I do try to and people often say, they feel like they know me and I know that feeling because I listened to podcasts and I feel like I know the people, although, now, I often do know them.  

Gin Stephens: Well, that's funny. Well, here's the thing is that we are just really ourselves. I mean, I don't know how to be any other way. Love me or hate me, this is who I am.  

Melanie Avalon: And I've been thinking about that because so, my Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, it's me but it's like interview Melanie. It's like Melanie having an intense conversation with an expert, but this is just like me.  

Gin Stephens: This is us. And you know what? On Intermittent Fasting Stories, I'm able to really be myself, too. Just because it's like me having coffee with a friend is how it feels. I kind of like this one and on Life Lessons. So, anyone who listens to all my podcasts, it's exactly how I am. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I can attest to that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. All right, so, anyways, she says, "A few more random questions. Number one, I exercise fasted like a lot of people in the IF community, has anyone ever researched if exercising fasted would be equal to an extra hour or two of fasting. For example, I close my window at 9 PM, exercise from 6 AM to 7:30 AM, and only open my window at 3:30 PM. Would that mean that I fasted more than 18 and a half hours?" No. [laughs] Sorry, I had to just answer that. Now, Melanie's going to give a longer answer.  

Melanie Avalon: I knew you were going to say, no.  

Gin Stephens: You knew I was going to say no? Well, maybe because you didn't fast more.  

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "Wait for it." [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: You fasted for 18 and a half. That's how much you fasted. But it's a lot more subtle than just-- Here's what happens when you fast 18 and a half hours every single day, all things being equaled. That's not the case. So, 18 and a half might not be equal to 18 and a half. 

Melanie Avalon: Right. So, no, you did not fast more than 18 and a half hours. But I think the question that she's getting at which is actually a very good question. It's something definitely worth thinking about. The processes that happen, or the actions that transpire, or things that happen when you're fasting can also be instigated, or upregulated, or increased, enhanced by exercise. So, there would be fat burning, there would be autophagy. So, it's a little bit of a different question but basically, I do think, if you do exercise while fasted, the benefits that you were trying to achieve from fasting, you might get those same benefits or you might get more of those benefits even, but having fasted less. 

Gin Stephens: Right. Like, think of the exponential curve. We all have seen a graph. You know, think of a graph with a straight line going just up straight. That's not what I'm talking about. An exponential curve is when it starts off sloping gently and then the slope gets higher, I think, by adding exercise, it would make that slope go up higher, like for the things that are happening in your body. Does that make sense?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Especially, I just mentioned them but depending on the exercise you're doing, that it might deplete your glycogen stores faster or it might burn more fat, and then the autophagy thing I think is huge, because there's a lot of studies on exercise increasing autophagy, and it does. It's one of the best ways to do it. So, yeah. You might get the benefits that you're trying to get potentially more so and potentially with less fasting.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. I'm just going to say the exact same thing, yes. I agree with all of that. All right, number two. "I love wine, but cannot eat any sugar with that or I throw up. Actually, any mix of alcohol and sugar thoughts." Well, I've got a thought there. Don't do that. [laughs] Sorry. I just can't control myself today. I'm feeling super punchy.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm wondering like, "Does she just drink wine and then throws up?"  

Gin Stephens: Well, she said, if she has wine with sugar, it makes her throw up.  

Melanie Avalon: Cannot eat any sugar with it. Okay.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Did I read it weird?  

Melanie Avalon: No, no, I'm just thinking about-- because she says, a mix of alcohol and sugar, I've thinking like, "Oh, is it like cocktails that she throws up?" But then she says like, eat.  

Gin Stephens: Well, anything like, I think cocktails or having alcohol with sugar, either.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It could be something about your liver health and trying to process all the stuff. I don't know. I would just say what Gin said, don't do that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Honestly, that's just your body saying, "I don't like this." So, you just going to have to stick to like a Dry Farm Wine that it that has low sugar itself, and don't eat sugar with it, and don't have sugary cocktails. Because I wouldn't want to throw up. So, I wouldn't do that. I don't think there's any way to fix it. Here's the thing you can do to stop that. You just can't do it.  

Melanie Avalon: Like I'm wondering if she gets nauseous. Is it like at the end of the night type thing or is it like she has it and then gets nauseous?  

Gin Stephens: That's your body sending you a powerful signal not to do that.  

Melanie Avalon: But that is one reason like Gin mentioned that, we love Dry Farm Wines because they actually-- I love, love, love. They put on the back of the bottle, the sugar content, which is so cool.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I just ordered Chad's Christmas present. We had paused our subscription for a while because I was barely drinking. [laughs] So, I just got him a year's subscription to Dry Farm Wines. He likes the red and I just drink a tiny bit of red like a Melanie dose of red and I'm okay, but that's what I got him.  

Melanie Avalon: The old Melanie dose?  

Gin Stephens: The old Melanie dose.  

Melanie Avalon: Gin is referring to when I was having a sip of wine every night.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, okay, I have more than that. But when he has one but it's still a very small amount of glass. We have tiny little wine glasses and they put a little bit in there and that's enough.  

Melanie Avalon: Nice.  

Gin Stephens: Nothing like I'm not getting a buzz or anything, but he likes to have red wine with dinner here and there. So, that's his Christmas present.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm literally contemplating. I'm going to a wedding on Friday. I'm like, "Can I bring a bottle of Dry Farm Wines?"  

Gin Stephens: For yourself?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't. Not to a wedding. I would not.  

Melanie Avalon: I could like slip it to the bartender be like, "Can you just pour mine from this one?"  

Gin Stephens: No, I would not do that. Thumbs down on that idea. Just don't drink at all if you are worried. Look, the reason I say that is because when I was drinking less, especially, the past year, I realized I have just as much fun with zero alcohol like honestly.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm definitely going to be drinking. 

Gin Stephens: Do not bring your own wine to a wedding.  

Melanie Avalon: I already like joked about it with the bride. She's like, "Are you going to bring Dry Farm Wines?" I'm like, "Maybe."  

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, if she's like, that's cool. I guess, it depends on your comfort level with the guests, the other guests. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll probably just drink whatever they have. Our link for Dry Farm Wines is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, gets you a bottle for a penny.  

Today's episode is sponsored by Audible. Audible is excited to offer members a new way to explore their interests with the new Plus Catalogue. This holiday season will certainly be more special than last. It's finally time to gather together and exchange thoughtful gifts with the people you care about. In the midst of all the holiday excitement, think about giving yourself the gift of an Audible membership. Now is the absolute best time to do it with a special offer of 60% off your first three months. With Audible, you can listen to more of whatever you're into because Audible has it all. An unbeatable selection of audiobooks, tons of binge worthy podcasts, and exclusive originals, all available to download or stream. Here's what you get. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month. Like the latest bestseller or hottest new release, yours to keep forever. You can listen to Melanie's book, What When Wine or either of my books, Delay, Don't Deny or Fast. Feast. Repeat., and coming January 4th, you can listen to Clean(ish) 

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Melanie Avalon: All right, number three.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. "I'm having surgery elective cosmetic, any supplements that would speed up my recovery." 

Melanie Avalon: So, when I had surgery, I thought I was dying and I was just wrecked. It was when I had my nose surgery. It could have been a coincidence. But I started high, high, high dosing NR and NMN, and I started feeling better the next day.  

Gin Stephens: I don't even know what that is.  

Melanie Avalon: Nicotinamide riboside, probably saying that wrong, NR and nicotinamide mononucleotide, NMN. 

Gin Stephens: Can I tell you something about that real quick?  

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.  

Gin Stephens: When I was reading Clean(ish), there are so many words in there that I had no idea how to say like when I'm talking about chemicals, and I had to say them. So, every time the director would look them up, and then I would try to say it, and then, she's like, "That was not right," and I would try again as like, "This is too hard, who wrote this." "Oh, yeah, me."  

Melanie Avalon: I read especially with that subject. You probably had a lot of--  

Gin Stephens: Well, I did because chemicals, and stuff, and so, anyone who's listening to Clean(ish), if I sound really stupid saying something wrong, it's because there's a lot of words, a lot of words. Anyway.  

Melanie Avalon: The one I can never remember is phthalates. 

Gin Stephens: Phthalates, I got that one.  

Melanie Avalon: Because it's like ph-tha-thalates. 

Gin Stephens: I can't say athe-roscle-rosis. Atherosclerosis like my tongue won't do it.  

Melanie Avalon: I cannot say that word.  

Gin Stephens: I can't say it. She'll say it. I can't. My tongue doesn't do that. They need to change that word. 

Melanie Avalon: They do. No, I remember because when I was recording some audiobook, they had that in a lot, that word. 

Gin Stephens: My tongue will-- athero-- I can't do it. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can't either. Yeah, same page. So, NR and NMN are precursors to NAD which is it regulates your body's metabolism of energy. So, it's super important for turning food into energy for your cells producing energy. It's just really, really important. And NAD levels decline as we age, so, supplementing NR and NMN can boost your NAD levels. I take it currently every day like a smaller dose. But if I were doing something like surgery, I would just like high dose it. The two brands I currently take, I take Elysium and Basis, NR and I take Quicksilver Scientific, NMN. In the future, I want to make my own version.  

Yeah, I would take that during the whole process, because you could take that. I mean, ask your doctor, but you should be able to take that before, during, and after, afterwards serrapeptase might be something to take because it enhances wound healing, lots of studies on that. Lots and lots of studies on that. So, I wouldn't take it before because they're probably telling you not to take blood thinners, things like that and serrapeptase can have a thinning effect on the blood. So, you won't want to be taking it before but afterwards could be really good thing. Those are the two things that come to mind for surgery specifically. And then just in general, any supplements that you're taking to support your personal health state kind of like we talked about before. Any thoughts, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm going to talk about fasting. I know that's not what she asked. But sometimes people will have surgery and they'll ask about, "When should I start fasting again?" I would just say, "It's always great to talk to your surgical team about that and get their advice." But really, you want to listen to your body. You might need to eat more than you think you will. As part of the healing process, your body may like say, you know, be craving protein. If you're hungry for protein and craving it, eat it. Really listen to your body as you're recovering. Don't try to be like, "Well, I'm going to just fast for 20 hours." Maybe that's the wrong thing for your body. Maybe, it's the right thing. Animals in the wild know when to eat and when not to eat, and they listen to their bodies. So, really connect with your body, and see how you feel, and listen to those cues. Like if my body said eat potatoes, I would eat potatoes. If it said eat meat, eat meat. I would just do what it said to do.  

Melanie Avalon: Depending on surgery and everything like protein will likely be important, especially, depending on what you're getting.  

Gin Stephens: That's right. You need it. Here's something interesting. When I had that flu like illness a couple of weeks ago, the whole time that I wasn't feeling well and had a fever, I could not eat meat like I didn't want it. My body was like, "Nope." I would try to, "No, couldn't eat meat." Then as soon as I was better, I was craving meat like a crazy person. I just ate so much meat. [laughs] It was just weird. My body was like, "No meat." Now, I just want meat. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, our bodies are very intuitive that way.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right, question four related to surgery. "Will have antibiotics for the first time in my life for that. My mom was very against it. So, never took in my entire life. What to take with it to minimize gut damage? Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're an amazing duo." You know, I haven't had any antibiotics since, I don't know, 2014 or 2015. I used to take them all the time because I was always having an infection when I was a teacher before fasting. But now, I don't have them. I don't need them. Anyway, she's never had an antibiotic. That's amazing. A-mazing.  

Melanie Avalon: Looking back in high school, I was on antibiotics for so long for acne. It's upsetting, but live and learn. So, this is a really good question and interestingly, I'm going to say something that might surprise people. They've actually done studies on antibiotics and recolonizing of the gut post-antibiotics, and they've actually found that supplementing probiotics directly after antibiotics can potentially slow down the body's return to its pre-antibiotic state. Because I think a lot of people will think they should take antibiotics and then immediately dose probiotics. I actually don't suggest that. I actually suggest taking antibiotics, fermented foods are a completely different case. I would focus on fermented foods instead. 

Gin Stephens: Like natural versions of probiotic foods.  

Melanie Avalon: I can put a link in the show notes to the study that talks about this, but I would probably suggest doing the antibiotics, framing it as in the positive because if you have to take it, no sense having a negative perspective of it and actually, can have a huge effect on things. It's something called the no SIBO effect, which is basically, if you anticipate bad things happening from whatever you're taking, it can actually make bad things happening. So, I would reframe it as, maybe this is like knocking out some bad guys. When you're done with it, I wouldn't do the probiotics right away. I would return to normal diet or standard diet throughout this, bring in natural fermented foods, and then a few weeks later, if you want to start on a different probiotic, that could be something to try. Its interesting people have asked me like, "Will I create a probiotic?" I just think there are a lot of probiotics that help people so much like this episode, for example, is sponsored by BiOptimizers. They make their magnesium.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, it is, isn't it? I didn't even notice that and me talking about my magnesium that I take that's theirs. [laughs] That was-- See, we really like the products that we have on the show. We use them. That's why we have them up on the show. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, they make an amazing probiotic P3-OM. So, that might be something to try a few weeks after going off the antibiotics. But I do think probiotics are another thing where it's just so individual. Like some people benefit, some people don't, and it's really just finding what works for you. So, any thoughts, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was everything. And then, oh, that was it. We got them all.  

Melanie Avalon: All right, so, to end things, we have a question from Brittany. The subject is: "COFFEE WITH LOTS OF EASE." 

Gin Stephens: Coffee.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Yes. She says, "Hello, I just started listening to your podcast. So, I'm at the very beginning and I just listened to the coffee Episode 5." I forgot. We did that.  

Gin Stephens: I know. We were different then,  we didn't know what we were doing yet.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we were trying to figure out like, what format and where we going to do topic episodes, and then we realized that the listener Q&As is just the way to go. She says, "I'm wondering about nut milks? Are they okay to add to my coffee while I'm transitioning or if I wait and break my fast with coffee? Thanks in advance."  

Gin Stephens: I have super bad news, Brittany, but I think you already knew what I was going to say. No, do not add them to your coffee. There's no freebie kind of milk of any kind that you can add to coffee that is not food for the body. Keep the nut milks in your eating window. I would recommend if you're new to intermittent fasting, really, I would Fast. Feast. Repeat. Because I really put everything in there that you're going to need to know and the why. Like, "Why can't I have--, why should I not do that?" It's all in Fast. Feast. Repeat again. Like I talked about with Clean(ish), I'm not just trying to sell you a book, but I spent a lot of time on that book as a resource because I wanted people to have something. So, instead of doing a Google search, where you're going to get crazy advice from people everything from yes to no to you know, "I only drink that milk--." There're all sorts of-- everything is conflicting. I put my very best advice in there based on the science and also what people are having success with, people in my communities.  

Oh, well, I'll tell you something funny, Melanie. Someone just yesterday in the DDD community, the private community that I have, somebody asked a question about butter in coffee, and we were talking about that, and then someone said as a comment, they're like, "You know, Gin, when I read Fast. Feast. Repeat, there were all those personal stories that you included from people about the clean fast and why." I was like, "That's a little bit of overkill." But as I kept reading, I was like, "Oh, no, this is actually [laughs] the best part." Because it's not just me telling you, it's people who are like, "Well, I thought you could have butter in your coffee because I heard that you could, so I did it, and fasting was hard, and then I saw what Gin said, and then, I stopped and oh, my gosh, it's better. It makes such a difference." So, that's why, I really would encourage you to take that clean fast challenge even if you think, "Well, I've always had butter in my coffee or I've always had nut milk in my coffee and it works for me,"  

I would have sworn to you that stevia works for me until I read The Obesity Code and realized the connection between insulin, and fat burning, and blood glucose levels because if your insulin goes up, your blood sugar goes down, that makes you hungrier, that sort of thing. Once I understood it, the science behind it, I took it out, made such a difference. I would have sworn to you that it "worked" for me till I removed it, and then realized it wasn't working for me. I didn't realize until I stopped that it wasn't. You don't know how good you can feel until you really feel good. So, that's why I would encourage anybody to do the clean fast. Black coffee, plain tea, don't use all the sweet herbal flavor or whatever in even things that are Swedish like chamomile, avoid those. Plain water, plain sparkling water, don't add anything else. Fast, clean, see what happens. Give yourself at least a month. Maybe six weeks of the clean fast, and then you know try that nut milk, and you will absolutely be a believer. You'll be like, "Oh yeah, that doesn't work for me." You're going to feel different. Then you will never doubt it again. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I knew you would have the perfect answer to that.  

Gin Stephens: I used to put cinnamon in my coffee back in those days, too. Cinnamon and stevia as part of my fast. So, one day just-- then I realized, "Okay, cinnamon is our body foresees that as being a tasty treat." So, I was like one day, it's been since 2019 because it was in this house where we moved in 2019. I remember, I was about to open my window and not too long, and I'm like, "You know, I'm just going to test cinnamon now. Just I want to see. I just want to see what happens." It made me so starving, and shaky, and I was like, "All right, there you go." And luckily, I was about to have my window, so I just did, but it wasn't like psychological. I was like, "Maybe, this will be fine." It wasn't fine.  

Melanie Avalon: I knew you'd have the perfect answer to that. I have two tangential thoughts.  

Gin Stephens: Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: I never realized how much Swedish sounds like sweetish. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, like sweet-ish.  

Melanie Avalon: Sweetish, like the same word. Two, on the nut milk front, guess who I'm interviewing tomorrow?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I have no idea.  

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Neal Barnard.  

Gin Stephens: Does he love nut milk? He's like vegan, right?  

Melanie Avalon: He's like the vegan. The vegan of vegans. I'm nervous. I'm actually nervous. I don't get nervous much anymore. I'm very nervous.  

Gin Stephens: Here's my advice. If someone is awful or rude, just don't air their episode. So, there's nothing that can go wrong.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't think he'll be awful or rude.  

Gin Stephens: I wasn't saying him. I didn't think he would. But my point is don't be nervous because if someone is awful, not him, but just anybody in general. You got nothing to be nervous about. I get it though, I get it.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated by the whole veganismness. I feel like I have a lot of knowledge about it but I wish I had more if that makes sense, but I have a lot of questions for him.  

Gin Stephens: Well, he is very much like, "This is the way everyone should be."  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I think that's one of that part of the reason that I'm-- 

Gin Stephens: That you're nervous? Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: I get it. I totally get that because obviously, neither of us believe that is the way everyone should be. And I'm not saying no one should be [laughs] either. Between everyone and no one is where the reality is.  

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, this is another reason that I'm nervous. I haven't listened to any debates with him between-- Mostly when I see him, it's him-- Listeners, he's in all the documentaries. So, like any of them. Like What the Health like all of them. He's there. So, it's normally like, he's normally in an environment where it's just him putting forth his position. So, I don't know how he acts. I'm not going to be debating him, but I have a lot of questions. So, I don't know how that dialogue is going to go. So, we shall see.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I get it.  

Melanie Avalon: I have learned a lot though about soy.  

Gin Stephens: So, he's a big fan of it.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. That's something that really goes back to, I think, now, the gut microbiome. It depends if you have gut bacteria that produces compound called Equol. I think around 90% of western population doesn't have that gut bacteria. So, it's like, I think that's a huge factor and if you get health benefits from soy or not.  

Gin Stephens: I also think there's a huge genetic component to soy and the populations that traditionally had that as part of their diet are going to be more adapted to it. I am not one of those populations. I'm European, the British Isles over there, and a little bit of also other Europeans sprinkled in for the most part, and we were not ever there eating soy. My ancestors were not. I like edamame, but tofu can't do it. Can't do it, I've tried, just can't.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Well, I can't wait to hear. 

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. [giggles] All right. So, for listeners, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there or you can directly email questions@podcast.com. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything we talked about. I think we talked about a lot of stuff that is at ifpodcast.com/episode243. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin's @ginstephens, and I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: I just remembered something. I'm going to talk about next week that is changing my life.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait to hear that and I'm not-- really can't wait to hear.  

Melanie Avalon: That's why I thought about it. So, yeah, all right. Well, I will talk to you next week. Happy holidays.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You, too. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Dec 05

Episode 242: Breaking Fast For The Best Digestion, Live Podcasts, Talk Shows, Early Weight Gain, Endurance Sports, Feeling Too Full, Morning Sickness, PMDD, Hormone Regulation, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 242 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

INSIDETRACKER: Go To Insidetracker.Com/Melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

Listener Feedback: Andrea - Thank You!

Listener Q&A: Sally - Best Type Meal To Eat When Breaking Fast

Listener Q&A: Paul - You Guys

Listener Q&A: Phoebe - IF & Weight Gain

Listener Q&A: Ashley - Windows, Endurance Sports, Leaning Out

Get 10% Off With Coupon Code MelanieAvalon at Platt Wellness Center!

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Feeling full

Listener Q&A: Carla - Hormones

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 242 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get 25% off one of the most amazing resources to charge of your health. Do you feel like every day, there's a new wellness trend, eat that, do this, avoid those? Just the other day in my Facebook group somebody posted, saying how they were confused about all of the expert advice out there. It seems like the only thing left that's approved is water. How do you know where to start or who to trust? I am obsessed with a company called InsideTracker. They're a David Sinclair partnered company, and they cut through the noise by analyzing your blood, DNA, lifestyle and fitness trackers to provide you a personalized science-backed trackable action plan on how to live, age, and perform better. InsideTracker is simpler, cheaper, and more convenient than traditional blood tests. 

I interviewed the founder Gil Blander on my show, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. What is so amazing about InsideTracker is that their blood tests, include the biomarkers that you need to be testing that are key to performance that you don't get from traditional blood tests. These are things like ferritin, vitamin D, GST, which is a liver enzyme that you will rarely ever see on a blood test. My favorite part, they don't just give you the data, they provide you with nutrition and lifestyle tips to take action. They also can track your inner age. Basically, how old you really are based on your blood markers. 

InsideTracker’s advanced data driven model first calculates your biological age, then they provide an action plan of science backed recommendations with the goal of improving the quantity and quality of the years ahead of you. They also have this amazing online portal where you can keep track of all of your InsideTracker blood tests and upload your own blood tests from your conventional doctor to keep everything in one place. What I really love is that they analyze your blood work by the ideal ranges, not the conventional ranges that you might see on your normal blood tests. Basically, they give you true clarity and insight into where you're at with your health.  

I am so honored because InsideTracker has the biggest discount pretty much anywhere with us specifically. I mean this. You can go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the coupon code MELANIE25 to get 25% off sitewide. That's insidetracker.com forward slash M-E-L-A-N-I-E with the coupon code MELANIE25, to get 25% off sitewide. We'll put all this information in the show notes. 

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.  

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 242 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?  

Melanie Avalon: Guess what I am holding in my hand.  

Gin Stephens: Water?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Because you just said you're going to drink some water before we started recording. So, I just assumed.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I do have water. Guess what type of water the water is? 

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lord, I don't know. Some kind of weird wacky water? 

Melanie Avalon: Deuterium depleted.  

Gin Stephens: I knew it. I knew it was going to be that one. I'm holding a mug of hot water, some [unintelligible [00:06:38]. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man.  

Gin Stephens: So, I'm going to guess that you're holding your Serrapeptase?  

Melanie Avalon: I am.  

Gin Stephens: I knew it.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so beautiful.  

Gin Stephens: Have you taken any yet?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I have. So, it came yesterday that like the box of my samples. Oh, the samples, that means I can finish the trademark registration. So, last night, I got the bottle and I tried it for the first time, and it was great. No GI issues. That's one thing I was a little bit worried about was GI distress because Serrapeptase doesn't really have side effects. But that is the one thing that is sometimes reported, but it felt amazing. My brain felt so clear after, and I took some today and the same thing. I'm so excited. And then I was chatting with my business partner. And he-- wait, did I tell you this already? He put one-- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, in the vinegar, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I told you that last time. So, I'm excited.  

Gin Stephens: Yay. It's good to see a plan come together.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting to see an idea manifest in its physical form in front of you.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. It really, really is to know that you could do this. I was always a big dreamer as a kid, like I had all these ideas and I was like, “I'm going to do this. And I'm going to do that.”  

Melanie Avalon: Me too.  

Gin Stephens: I believe it. And you're like, “Wow. Look, we did these things.”  

Melanie Avalon: I know, you really can. When listeners get it, the logo, the Avalon X logo. The Avalon is my signature, and then the X is, it's like a DNA, but I designed that, and then they designed. I told them what I wanted the imagery to look like. It just really came together very nicely. So, by the time this episode airs, pretty sure it probably should already be in preorders if it's not sold out. So, if you'd like to preorder the supplement, which really quickly is an enzyme originally created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it breaks down protein buildup, so it can help with inflammation and allergies and brain fog and it can reduce cholesterol, breakdown amyloid plaque, and fibroids, and pain relief, and all these things. The website for it, is avalonx.com, and the email list for all the information on it as well as future supplements, is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. So that is that. 

Gin Stephens: Congratulations.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's actually releasing as of this recording date this week, most likely. Like a midnight release thing. So, we shall see. Anything else new with you? 

Gin Stephens: No. Not really. I stopped to finish recording my Audiobook. So, got that coming up. I'll be glad when it's over. I love all the people who love to listen. But Lord, it's hard. [laughs] It is really hard to read a book. Clean(ish) has a lot of hardness in it. A lot of difficulty.  

Melanie Avalon: Hard words.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm like, “Why did I write that? Why? Why did I write that?” I will be talking to the director and I'm like, “Can I just change this?” She's like, “No, that's a direct quote out of a journal. You cannot.” I'm like, “Okay. But why did they write it like that?” Like, how to say things, it's so hard.  

Melanie Avalon: You know what I would be curious to hear? 

Gin Stephens: What? 

Melanie Avalon: I think Fast. Feast. Repeat. is on Blinkist.  

Gin Stephens: What is Blinkist?  

Melanie Avalon: It's this, I don't know-- it's a website. I keep hearing about it on [unintelligible [00:10:17]. But it's a website where they put 15-minute summaries of nonfiction books. So, you can like, learn a lot really fast. I think your book is on there. 

Gin Stephens: I feel it might be. I think someone might have told me that, that sounds familiar. I don't really know anything about it.  

Melanie Avalon: I was contemplating downloading it not to replace researching books for my show, because I always have to read everything. But just as a recap at the end, like a summary of the book. 

Gin Stephens: For Fast. Feast. Repeat? 

Melanie Avalon: No, just in general for prepping my other-- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, I see. Okay. I was like, “What? Why do you need to listen to Fast. Feast. Repeat.? Whatever. Okay. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Like prepping other books. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that wouldn't be a bad idea.  

Melanie Avalon: I'd be curious if you listen to the Blinkist, did they put in what you would want to be the 15 minutes?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. See, that's the kind of thing that would drive me crazy. So, I'll probably never listen. I don't want to know. That kind of stuff is so frustrating.  

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. Let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have some feedback. This is from-- Oh, no. We had this discussion recently. This is from, here we go, Andrea, Andréa, A-ndrea, And-rea, one of those. Andrea. She sent this email to me, but I asked her if we could include it because I thought it was a nice email. She said, “Hi, Melanie, I'm really fan crushing emailing you right now. I have not had a good enough question that felt worthy of emailing to the show. But I want to take this opportunity to thank you and Gin for all that you do. I'm a 44-year-old that found intermittent fasting after a long battle with my weight and anemia, that I later learned stemmed from methane based SIBO that developed after years without an appendix and gallbladder. While everyone understands how the gallbladder works. Did you know the appendix produces a probiotic that helps balance the microbiome? It's not so useless. after all.” I'd never heard that. Had you heard that, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: I haven't heard that. No, but I'm not surprised that it's not useless, because-- just because we don't understand what something is doing, doesn't mean it isn't doing something important. One of those things that never made sense to me. “Oh, you don't even need it. It's just there.” I'm like, “I doubt that.” [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if there is anything that as a species did become purposeless that we lost that we don't have now.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, that's something to research. She says, “After resolving my gut issues with high dose herbs, biofilm disruptors, and antifungals, then healthy probiotics and prebiotics. I started intermittent fasting, and I've never felt better. I first started listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast and from there, discovered your podcast,” and she's talking about the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. She says, “Now I am into so many of the hacks, I'm sure my family thinks I'm nuts, lol. But they have no argument when the results so clearly speak for themselves. I appreciate all you do to bring light to sometimes little-known topics and speaking with the experts in an understandable way.” So, those are some great feedback from Andrea. For listeners, SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, and it's a gut issue that a lot of people, especially with IBS often struggle with, and it can be difficult to address. So, it's nice to hear that she worked out her gut issues and that intermittent fasting is really helping with that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think so too. It also made me reflect by listening, she's a biohacker now listening to the Biohacking Podcast. I think it's just perfect the way we each are so different. Here we are together on the intermittent fasting podcast, but we each have our different strengths here. But our strengths here have spun off into completely 180 podcasts. I mean, your podcast and my podcast couldn't be more different.  

Melanie Avalon: You think so?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, we both interview people, but we're not talking about biohacking on my podcast. It's making intermittent fasting a lifestyle on Intermittent Fasting Stories.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's personal stories.  

Gin Stephens: It's personal stories. It's day to day stuff. It's nitty gritty of a life.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Mine is all the random tangent rabbit holes into all the biohacking.  

Gin Stephens: I just think that's interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: We create a lot of good content.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but it's so different.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. But then it comes together here on this show.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Well, good. Thank you, Andrea.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, thank you.  

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Sally and the subject is: “Best type meal to eat when breaking fast.” “I'm hearing protein/good fat meal is best when you're breaking your fast. Wonder why I'm being told that, and is there any validity to it? What are your responses knowing that Melanie likes paleo, so that kind of goes hand in hand, but Gin enjoys some carbs, including grains and starchy veg. So, do you really care? You just eat what you want? Or, is it beneficial to do something more intentional? And should the big meal be first within your window? Or, would you recommend maybe eating a handful of nuts as a start? And then maybe an hour later, have your bigger meal while in your window? Thanks.”  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, this is a great question from Sally. Something I'd like to clarify because people often say that to me, people think I don't eat carbs. I might eat more carbs than Gin every night.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I doubt it.  

Melanie Avalon: How many carbs do you think you eat?  

Gin Stephens: I mean, I don't count things. I just eat.  

Melanie Avalon: I eat pounds of fruit every night. So, there's a lot of carbs.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I do not eat pounds of anything.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I eat pounds of meat, pounds of cucumbers, and pounds of fruit.  

Gin Stephens: I just like eat a meal of food. I'm not eating individual ingredients, like separately. Last night, I ate a burger from local farmhouse burger, which is really good high-quality burger. I had grass-fed meat, I had a whole grain burger bun, I had really high-quality French fries. So, that's not my typical meal. I usually cook at home. But last night, I was just craving a burger, and we actually were talking about it. Did I talk about it on the podcast? We're recording two days back-to-back. So, did I mention that I wanted a good burger? I think I did.  

Melanie Avalon: You definitely did to me.  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember if I said it on the air. Well, anyway, spoiler alert, I had one. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: How was it?  

Gin Stephens: It was really good. It hit the spot. My body was craving that beef.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.  

Gin Stephens: It wasn't like pounds of anything, but it was a nice meal.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm just trying to see how many carbs, it probably equals out to.  

Gin Stephens: Like what you're eating? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I just don't think of food as macros. I just think of food like-- I am sensitive to the idea that my body doesn't clear fat as well. So, I shouldn't load up on the fat. But I'm still going to, like, if I'm having bread and butter, I'm going to put butter on there till it's delicious. Not like a slab just to go crazy, but it's really good. Bread and butter are good together. So, I eat the food that makes me satisfied, and that tastes really good. I add olive oil to my vegetables, so that they roast well. It's part of the cooking process kind of a thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll have to look it up later, but it's definitely a lot of carbs in the form of fruit. But as for her question, so the answer we always say, it's very individual. You have to find what works for you. I think a lot of the concern about needing to be super specific and careful when you “break” your fast is, in general, likely more applicable when you're breaking a much longer fast. So, like an extended fast, because there's just idea of slowly reintroducing foods. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That is not every day what we're doing. I don't have to be careful at all. There are some people who have digestive upset even with a daily eating window. I mean there are. People have like a supersensitive system, and if they're not opening carefully, they experience dumping. We hear it a lot in the community. I didn't know if you had, but that really is something that happens to a small segment of the people, never happened to me.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't happen to me either. But as far as to break it with, so I think a reason people say, like protein and fat is because that will likely fill you up fast, if you're trying to not overeat or get satiety signals soon. Protein is often the macronutrient that really leads to satiety. There's the whole protein leverage hypothesis, which says that we will eat to get our protein needs. So, we'll keep eating in any given meal or situation until we get our protein needs. So, that might be a reason somebody might want to start with the protein, because they'll fill up faster. But it really is a matter of just what digests for you, what you like.  

For me, I would not want to start with something like that because that would really slow down my digestion. I do do a specific ordering to my food, and it's because with that order, that I had found that works for me. I digest it well, none of the food compounds slow down the other compounds because I tend to lean towards digestive issues, so I do have to be careful. I would just experiment and find what makes you feel good.  

Gin Stephens: Nuts make me queasy on an empty stomach. So, I absolutely would not start with a handful of nuts. That would be the wrong thing for me. I talk about how a lot of things don't bother me. Well, tea makes me queasy on an empty stomach and nuts make me queasy on an empty stomach. I also don't think protein and good fats on their own would feel good to me. That would probably also make me queasy on an empty stomach. 

Melanie Avalon: Make you queasy? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. My stomach needs starchy carbs.  

Melanie Avalon: That's funny, that settles my stomach. If I ever have an upset stomach, if I just eat a big hunk of protein- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, God, no. 

Melanie Avalon: -that will always settle my stomach.  

Gin Stephens: Nope, nope, no, opposite. When I was sick last week and not really hungry, I couldn't even look at me. I didn't want me, I wasn't interested in me. I was like, “Chad, you're in charge of your own dinner. I just can't.” I cannot eat any meat. I did eat eggs. Eggs sounded good. But it wasn't a big piece of meat. Like scrambled eggs, I was eating like egg sandwiches, that sort of thing. So, I was still getting protein that way. But I absolutely did not think I could eat meat. Which is why when I suddenly felt better, I was like, now I need a cheeseburger. Isn’t that interesting? 

Melanie Avalon: That's so interesting. If I ever have an upset stomach, or if I'm ever sick, the thing I will crave is just pure animal protein. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, and a grilled cheese sandwich. I always crave a grilled cheese sandwich. Grilled cheese sandwich and apparently egg sandwiches.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that because I've never had an egg sandwich.  

Gin Stephens: So good. Scrambled eggs on bread. The whole moral of the story is, we're all very, very different with what makes you feel great. And you're just going to have to figure it out. The person who is telling you to eat a protein/good fat meal, probably that's what makes them feel the best. So, they're like, “Well, everyone should do that.” But that doesn't make it true. 

Melanie Avalon: I did have an experience though, like the different foods, if it has a big effect on you, you can really notice. For example, I, at my birthday dinner this past week, it was amazing. I was having wine and I had fish and mushrooms and everything was delicious, and I was feeling satiated. And then they brought out so many random things that most of them I didn't eat, but they did bring out this dessert plate. They told me what was gluten free and so there was a strawberry gummy bear thing. I was like, “It's my birthday. I'll just eat this.” So, I ate it. It was tiny. And it was so sweet, I ate it, after eating a full meal and then I was starving. It was such a good moment to experience just how much of an effect the foods can have. I went from being like completely full and fine, to starving from a tiny little gummy bear. 

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Because it made my blood sugar drop. Reactive hypo, I'm guessing, or just like that craving from the sugar, like switching over to that mode.  

Gin Stephens: Today's episode is sponsored by Prep Dish. I want you to think through your day. What are the hectic daily moments you dread? For many of us, it's 5:00 PM when you realize the dinner hour has somehow snuck up on you again and you have no plan. Naturally, this is also the time young kiddos start losing it. Trying to throw together a healthy meal amidst that chaos is just plain hard. Even though my kids are grown, I remember those days well. Often, I would just hit the drive thru, again.  

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we move on to the next question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, this is a question from Paul. The subject is: “You guys.” Paul says, “How did you guys get to be so funny? [laughs] I don't think we're that funny. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I just realized that my zipper is down, so that's kind of funny. I'm fixing it now, sitting here with my zipper down.  

Melanie Avalon: You wear zippers? 

Gin Stephens: I'm wearing jeans. I wear jeans all the time.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't remember the last time I had a zipper, that was not addressed. He says, “Truth is, you brighten my day with your always upbeat conversation. Will you ever take your show on the road for some live tapings? And, of course, will you start with Boston?” Doubtful. 

Gin Stephens: That does sound fun, though, but we first have to meet.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

Gin Stephens: Atlanta is where we'll start.  

Melanie Avalon: So, this is just a little fun fact into podcasting. The setup for recording in the same room is drastically different from the setup-- 

Gin Stephens: That is true.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for the setup, like right now, it would be a completely different setup.  

Gin Stephens: It's harder. When I was at the beach in August, I had to record two episodes of people live. And they were just not as good. I recorded one with my friend Michelle, she's amazing. I don't regret that we did that. I love that we did that. But sounds are different and trying to share the same microphone.  

Melanie Avalon: Did you share microphone?  

Gin Stephens: We did. I was just listening-- You sent me a podcast yesterday, I'm not going to say who it was, but I listened to it. And I noticed they had wacky quality of sound. 

Melanie Avalon: On both sides? 

Gin Stephens: Well, the host, the main guy, the one whose podcast it was. There was a beginning part and that part was really professional sound quality. And then the part where he was interviewing his guest, it sounded like he was like in his car or something, I don't know. Or maybe on his phone, it sounded like maybe he was on his phone, but I just thought that was interesting. So, I don't get real stressed out. The point of my story is, not to criticize someone else's podcast, but that it makes me feel better because I know that sometimes if I have a guest, the audio is not perfect, and I don't let that stress me out. That's my point.  

I was listening to this amazing podcast or who had great content, and I really enjoyed it. And thank you for sending it to me. I just noted that the audio wasn't amazing, and I didn't judge it. But it made me feel better about myself. That was why I told that story. [laughs] Anyway, it might not be perfect, but it's-- actually my director told me that when we were recording the Audiobook. She's like, “Podcasts can be recorded on the street, but for Audiobook, it has to be perfect.”  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's interesting. I have had a few requests on my other show to do it live. So, I remember when-- I haven't released this episode yet, but I did an episode on hyperbaric chambers. And I'm like friends adjacent with the guy, like he's a friend of a friend. He was like, “You should come down to my hyperbarics and we’ll record from the chamber.” I was like, “No.” [laughs] He was trying to convince me to do that for a month.  

Gin Stephens: Seriously, though, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just have some fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, so here's the other thing. And then I had Brad Kearns on recently, and we've become really good friends. And he's like, “We're going to do another one. We're going to do it live.” And I'm like, “No, no, no,” because here's the thing, with my other show, well, it might be different if it was more casual, like talking again with Brad. But, in general, I have so much prep work that, I need my notes, I need to not have the camera because they need to be like-- basically, I like have to be in my zone, as the way I perceive myself as a performer. If I was in real life with these guests, it would add a whole another aspect of me being aware of like what I look like. 

Gin Stephens: 100%, I get that, yep. People have been like, “Why don't you do a video of your podcast too, and then you could put it on YouTube, because so many people do.” Because I don't want to. I don't want to be on video while I'm recording with someone. I take notes while we're talking, I take notes what my guest is saying, and then I circle back to things, but I'm writing and I don't want to have to think about how my face looks. And do I look weird? Yeah, I get it.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you do video?  

Gin Stephens: Well, we can see each other while we're recording, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, but you don't want to air it. 

Gin Stephens: But we don't record it. We don't record the video. No, no, I've no desire to record that and air it. 

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I'm that plus one step more. I don't even let the other guests see me because it would just take me out. I have so much going on in my head when I'm doing those shows. I can't-- It would really stress me out, too bad.  

Gin Stephens: I enjoy being able to see the person we like, we see each other. That's okay. Sometimes if we have weird internet, we'll have to turn off the video and I don't like it as much. I like to be able to see the person I'm talking to, but I don't want the world, I don't want to have to worry about it, because when I'm being recorded, sometimes someone will record me for a podcast and it'll be video and it just feels-- it feels like I have to be like on in a different way that I don't want to be. It's a different thing to think about.  

Melanie Avalon: I feel like most of the shows I go on, I don't seek out going on other podcasts, but if people invite me- 

Gin Stephens: Ditto, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: -which is a good problem to have, because I know a lot of people would die to be on some of the shows I've been on, but most of them are video. And it is-- it is a completely different experience, but it's easier for me on video if I'm the one being interviewed because then I'm not-- I'm just answering the questions. 

Gin Stephens: That's true. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: The one I did this week-- did I mention it on the show that I did one with Bill Tancer, New York Times bestselling author, but he's going to come on my show.  

Gin Stephens: I know you told me. I can't remember if you said it on the show.  

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. I could tell, especially interviewing with him, we were very similar. We were talking about this, we see the world kind in the same way and he understood right from the beginning, I told him, I didn't really want to do video if that was an option. He totally understood. So, I do appreciate that. I mean, obviously, my dream is still to have a talk show and that would be completely video. But that would be different.  

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't mind doing a Clean(ish) television show. Wouldn't that be fun?  

Melanie Avalon: I know. 

Gin Stephens: Like Marie Kondo came in and help people say goodbye to their things. I could go in and help people get Clean(ish) in their bathroom or in their makeup or their pantry.  

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I could produce your show.  

Gin Stephens: That would be fun. I think I would have fun with that because it's just me and regular people and here we are, and let me help you with this, and look at this product, can you believe it?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I would do that. That would be fun. I love people. I love hanging out with people and talking to people and doing stuff with people.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is why I want like a talk show. I like people in a controlled setting, so I would want everything to be very controlled. 

Gin Stephens: I'm the opposite. I'm like, “Let's just see what happens.”  

Melanie Avalon: I want studio audience, I want the lineup, everything is very much on point. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: The people have the card that says 'applause' and everybody would applaud. 

Melanie Avalon: More so just the outline of where it's going to go in the segments, and we're going to do this at this point. And, yeah, I'll let the audience person handle the audience, but I would die to have a show with an audience. That would be so amazing because it would be doing the shows that we do now, but then I will get to interact in real time with people reacting to this stuff. Ah, it'd be so fun. Goals. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, Paul, thank you so much. I'm glad you think we're funny. Yeah, we get to do this for a job. That is so-- I can't believe it. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm super grateful.  

Gin Stephens: Me, too. I really love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I really do. Now we have a question from Phoebe. The subject is: “IF and Weight Gain.” Phoebe says, “Hi, I first want to say how informative your podcast is. There is so much “bad science” out there. And I think it's great you're both espousing, so much reliable knowledge to your listeners. So, thank you for that. I started IF about two weeks ago, I found 16 hours tough in the beginning, but now I can get to 19 to 20 hours before wanting to eat again. I've been doing HIIT or strength training with small weights for about an hour each day. I feel great during the fast and I love waking up with a flat stomach. I had no issues switching over to clean fasting within the first week and only have black coffee and water in the day. My issue is I have not lost any weight, and instead I keep fluctuating around the same mark. Some days I eat more, and others less, I only really ever seem to go down on the scale if I drink wine the night before, but I don't know if that's due to dehydration. 

I'm 5’7” and 24 years old, but I've gained about 20 pounds about 10 during quarantine that I'm desperate to lose. I'm sensitive to dairy and I have digestion issues when I eat high fiber foods such as rye bread and bananas and also cruciferous vegetables. I can eat in very small doses and be fine, but too much, and I get stomach pains/gas/bloating. I don't know if I haven't given it enough time or if maybe I'm eating too much in these meals and I should calorie count. I really want IF to work and I'm sad at the lack of my own progress. I know, Gin, you say that I might be getting smaller/building muscle, but all of my jeans still tight. Do you think it's something to do with cortisol levels or water retention?” 

Gin Stephens: No. 

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I know--I know Gin has been like dying this whole time. 

Gin Stephens: No. I do not. I do not think that’s it, Phoebe. Sorry. [gasping] Go ahead, keep going.  

Melanie Avalon: One more sentence-- One more sentence Gin. 

Gin Stephens: It's none of that, Phoebe. All right, go ahead.  

Melanie Avalon: “Would love your advice on the issue. Sorry for the giant mega essay. Phoebe.”  

Gin Stephens: I highlighted three words. 

Melanie Avalon: Can I guess what they are?  

Gin Stephens: Yep. 

Melanie Avalon: Two weeks ago. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. Those are the three-- those are the three words I highlighted. That's all you need to know, Phoebe. You just started two weeks ago, there's no diet plan of the world that is going to cause you to lose amazing amounts of fat quickly. You might go down really fast on the scale and certain diets you've done in the past, but we don't lose fat that quickly. But with intermittent fasting, we definitely do not lose weight quickly. It sounds to me you probably have not read Fast. Feast. Repeat. I would really recommend that you read that. Anyone who's starting out, is not just because I want to sell you a book, I promise. It's because I think it's valuable. If I just wanted to sell people book, Delay, Don't Deny, I could have just kept selling that one. I wrote Fast. Feast. Repeat. because I wanted a better book out there. I'm really proud of Fast. Feast. Repeat.  

I would recommend, if you're starting out, take the time to listen to Fast. Feast. Repeat. if you don't like to read, it's on Audible, I read it to you. I want you to start with the 28-Day Fast Start chapter. In that chapter, I'm very, very, very clear that you should not expect weight loss in the first 28 days. That's because your body is learning how to do something new. You're learning how to tap into your fat stores for fuel. So, you're like fasting during the day, then you're also working out in there, and then you're eating, and then your body's doing all these changes. A lot of things are going on behind the scenes. But what your body is probably not doing great yet, is burning fat and metabolically flexible, and all the magic that we want to have happen. So, I don't think that it's that you're building all this muscle and you've lost all this fat. I mean, it's only been two weeks.  

I also want to encourage you to read the Scale-Schmale chapter, that is a very, very, very important chapter. It talks about all the different ways that I want you to measure your progress. The scale is a tiny little piece of that, especially since you're doing high intensity interval training or strength training for an hour every day. That is going to lead to muscle building. I'm not saying that's what's happened already, because it's only been two weeks. But you are going to probably see body re-composition with the combination of fat burning once your body is adjusted. And then now you're doing this high intensity interval training and strength training, so you're going to be building muscle well. You're going to need to use a lot of different tools to measure your progress, and the scale is likely to be the least effective. Especially since you only have 20 pounds to lose, and you're young, you're 24 years old. So, you're probably going to be better at building muscle than someone who's my age.  

You're going to need to use things like progress photos, honesty pants, measurements. If you just are desperately staring at the scale, you're going to be really, really disappointed because you will probably find that you get down to your dream body, and you probably aren't going to see the actual number on the scale you think you need to see, because your body is going to change so much. But it's way too early to be stressing about that for now. You got to give it a long time. It might take you 20 weeks to get to your dream body. Like I said, it might not even be the number on the scale that you think it's going to be ever. You got to let go of that that number and instead focus on what your body does. And your clothes, your measurements, your progress photos, that is really the best way to judge it.  

I don't want you to be all worried about, “Oh, my gosh, I got to change everything because this isn't working.” Your body's doing what it's supposed to do. Just keep going. And don't be sad, because again, two weeks is not very long in the whole scheme of things.  

Melanie Avalon: I really have nothing to add to that, I think. [laughs] Our next question is actually similar about as far as like weight loss. So maybe we can see if there's any nuance to be added for Ashley's question. But, yes, hopefully, Phoebe, feel free to write back and report back if you are still having issues way down the road. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because that's really important. You really have to give it the long-term approach. And even if you are using the scale, it can be an important tool, but you still have to focus on your overall trend. I talk about and Fast. Feast. Repeat. why it's important to weigh daily if you're using the scale, and calculate your overall trend. There are apps that do that for you, like Happy Scale. I like to do an old school because that's just me. I wrote it on paper, got out my calculator, added it off, divided by seven. I even put it on a little graph by hand. There was just something pleasing and plotting it, that made me feel like, “Here I am. I'm plotting it on my graph.” Knowing the overall trend is really important. 

We have a question from Ashley, and the subject is: “Windows, Endurance, Sports, Leaning Out.” All right. She said, “First off, let me say that I love you ladies and feel like we are friends. I've never been into podcasts until I found you. My dad actually said, ‘You need to listen. They are like you.’” Oh, I love that your dad said that. I mean, your dad is listening. Hi, dad or Ashley’s dad. All right. She said, “And I've been hooked ever since. I'm an elementary school counselor and have been following a paleo/primal diet for seven to eight years. I began IF 16:8, not really knowing what it was, and only stopped for pregnancy with my twins. I had to eat to help my morning sickness. I just completed two marathons and run half marathons about four to five times a year. In addition, I teach group fitness class with high intensity interval training, weights, and cardio two to three times a week.” I still have hard time just saying HIIT. I think they say HIIT, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I always say H-I-I-T.  

Gin Stephens: She said, “Sorry for all the info, but I feel like it's helpful to have the background.” Yes, Ashley. We like the info, so thank you.” She said, “I currently alternate between a 16 to 24-hour window. I play around with what works for that day, with Sundays very relaxed. Here's my question. I'm looking for fat loss. Do I keep my window more consistent and pass the 18-hour or 20-hour mark always? Do I forego my paleo treats in my window? Do I focus on carbs? Please help and keep up the good work. Thanks so much, and keep on keeping on. Much love.”  

Melanie Avalon: Did she say how long she's been doing IF? 

Gin Stephens: Ah-huh. See, that's the thing. So, I have no idea.  

Melanie Avalon: I vote that we approach this like she's been doing it longer.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it sounds like she did it and then she got pregnant and stopped doing it. And then she started doing it again.  

Melanie Avalon: If it's the situation where she hasn't been doing it long, then she can apply the Phoebe answer. 

Gin Stephens: True.  

Melanie Avalon: We can answer this now for if it has been longer. First, I want to comment though, on the morning sickness. I have not aired the episode yet. I'm not sure when it's airing. But I interviewed Dr. Michael Platt. And he wrote a book called The Miracle of Bio-Identical Hormones. And he talks a lot about morning sickness and makes a huge case for supplemental progesterone to resolve that. I don't have any experience with morning sickness and pregnancy and progesterone. So, I can't speak to it personally. But for any listeners that are pregnant and experiencing that, that might be something to try. And I've been using this cream every night. I've been using progesterone for years. But I switched over to his cream and saw a huge, huge benefit. And then on top of that, my sister, I don't know, I might have shared this on the show already. But my sister had PMDD, which is basically the really intense diagnoseable form of PMS. And she's had it for like a decade, and she's tried so many things. She started taking the progesterone cream. And he says in his book, and I'm sorry, this is a tangent. He says in his book that it'll just go away.  

I told her about it, and she started taking it, and it just went away after 10 years. She was shocked. I was so happy. I was like he really makes it sound like this will resolve it and she's been dealing with this for so long. So, I will put a link in the show notes. I do have a discount code. Michael Platt is the brand. I think the code is MELANIEAVALON for discount. But that's just a resource for morning sickness. But back to the question. Ashley is doing a lot of activity. Just want to note that. Okay. Assuming you have weight to lose, because she doesn't-- 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she sounds like she's trying to lose fat and she's maybe having trouble with that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The important things to focus on is the diet that provides the nutrition that you need, especially when you're doing all of this exercise. All of the protein, all the nutrients, but is ultimately two things. One, supporting the fat burning state. Of course, with intermittent fasting, the fasting is creating that, but you can really tweak that even more by finding the dietary macros that your body burns very efficiently and lets you really go into the fastest state with no hunger and continue the fat burning mode. And then also, if it's-- fat loss is the goal, focusing on foods that really fill you up without adding a huge surplus of calories because a lot of people think, “Oh, I'm fasting, so it doesn't matter.” I'm not saying that you think this actually, but a lot of people might think that they're fasting, so it doesn't really matter the calories that they're eating. Again, we're not about counting calories. We already said we don't count calories. But choosing the type of foods that are not going to necessarily create a massive calorie surplus, especially calories that are easily stored can definitely have a huge effect on weight loss.  

Gin Stephens: Like what are paleo treats? She said, does she need to forego paleo treats. I don't know what that might even be because I've never tried to do paleo.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know what that is. But a lot of paleo treats are often things like, nut butters and lots of nuts. 

Gin Stephens: Like very nutrient dense, but also calorically dense. 

Melanie Avalon: So in my book for example-- I'm just thinking about the recipes in my book. I have recipes for brownies made from avocado, like avocado brownies and cakes or things like that made from almond flours instead of normal flour. I do find that the-- It depends where they are, but the paleo treats can often be pretty high calorie. So, the point of all of that is, you can eat too many calories in your eating window, so that you don't lose fat in your fasting window. So, you can really choose where you want to focus and try different things because she also asked about, “Do I focus on carbs?” So, I do think if fat loss is the goal, looking at macros, to find the macros that work for you and experimenting is a really good way to go. Maybe low carb works for you. Maybe low fat works better. Maybe one works at one time, maybe one works at another time. But if trying a low version of either one, so either low carb or low fat can often work really well. If you are having those paleo treats, cutting those out can help really well. Ashley might not be eating this. It might not be in her “paleo protocol.” But just for people in general. If they're eating massive amounts of things like cheese.  

Especially after-- I already thought this already, but especially after reading Dr. Neal Barnard’s book, The Cheese Trap. I don't agree with everything that he says, but he does make a very big case for just how incredibly fattening cheese is. If you're eating massive amount, even, maybe not even massive amounts, but a lot of cheese in your window, that could really be stalling weight loss. I think nuts can often stall weight loss. But then also, she asks about like, does she need to actually change the window? Does it need to be consistent? Does it always need to be longer? What I would probably do, and I feel like I'm all over the place right now is, I would probably first find the window that you're liking, if a consistent window does work for you, and then if that's not working, I would tweak with the food choices. And I would really just go in the order of what feels right to you. So maybe it's trying to just cut out these treats, or maybe it's working on the macros. But, yes, things can be done. Oh, and focusing on protein. 

Gin Stephens: I would also be very cautious. If you're really, really doing a lot of physical activity, teaching group fitness classes, two to three times a week. I mean, you probably need a longer eating window, you need to fuel your body because we talk about how intermittent fasting is not a problem for women, but over restriction is. And if you're really hitting the gym hard, and restricting your diet, and intermittent fasting and pushing it more and more, that does turn into a state of over restriction. So, you just have to kind of find the balance, so that it isn't overly restrictive for your body. I just think that's really important. We've gotten to the point in society where we're like, “Well, let's just do more. Let's do more high intensity training. Let's have a longer fast.” Really, maybe you just need to, you did say Sundays are very relaxed, that's good. But that doesn't mean you need to just keep pushing it more every day necessarily, but I feel you already know, Ashley, because when you said, “Do I forego my paleo treats in my window?” I think that was you kind of knowing that might be it. 

There're some things that are really easy to eat. It might be something that's like perfectly on plan, but that doesn't mean that it's helping you with your fat loss goals. 

Melanie Avalon: This is just me personally. The thing I love about fasting and the eating window is, I don't ever want to restrict the quantity of the food I'm eating. I don't want to ever have to feel like I have to stop eating, and I'm not saying anybody has to do that. But when I focus on just whole foods, so I don't make these paleo treats. I don't eat nuts. I have been eating actually fat free cheese recently, I've been experimenting with that, but don't do high fat cheese or anything like that. If I eat the certain foods that I eat that are all whole foods, I really can just eat as much as I want it. It's going to support for me either like maintenance or weight loss. It doesn't really lead to weight gain. Whereas if I added in, at least for me personally, things like this, it could be made from the same substrates of “paleo foods,” but when they enter this more process form, it's a way to eat a lot of more processed calories really fast, and I might not be able to just eat unlimited amounts of that. So, yes. 

Gin Stephens: All right. That was a lot, but I felt like it was good.  

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All right. So, now we have a question from Jennifer. The subject is: “Feeling Full.” Jennifer says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I love your podcast. A friend of mine suggested IF and she suggested that I tune in.” This is the second question where it was suggested by somebody. 

Gin Stephens: I know, I love that. 

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I'm so glad I did. I spent years yo-yo dieting and it was awful. I've been following 16:8 and I'm about a week in. I feel great already. I've been told for years by my doctor and herbalist that I'm insulin resistant, but I didn't want to accept that. I finally have the mindset that it's time to take control and feel better. Here's my question. I have noticed that during my eating window, I get very full very quickly. I've stopped eating and found myself super hungry during the fasting period. I clean fast. I don't want to force myself to keep eating during my eating window either when I feel so full. Suggestions, I want to get my nutrients in, but I don't want to overdo it. I'm eating very little carbs.  

Gin Stephens: All right so Jennifer, I'm going to give you the same advice I gave a few questions ago. And that is that you are still so very new. You are, what, one week in? You're not at the point yet where you're really tuned in to what's happening in your body. The whole idea of appetite correction, that's a term coined by Dr. Bert Herring. I talk about it in Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, if you've got Fast. Feast. Repeat., go to that chapter about appetite correction and read about it. I love the concept. Basically, the idea is that our bodies are born to know when we've had enough to eat so that we stop eating. All the animals in nature, they eat, they stop eating. You don't see obese lions out there. We only see that when animals are like human fed. We start feeding them the things they're not supposed to eat. We start feeding the ducks the bread and now the ducks are having problems. But as long as we leave the animals alone, they know what to eat and how much to eat without even counting a calorie. They just stop.  

The thing about intermittent fasting is, once your body adjusts, and you're tapping into your fat stores during the fast and you're feeding your body nutritious foods, during your eating window, you can reconnect with those natural hunger and satiety cues that your body has. It doesn't really help that you're eating real food though, because just like those ducks that overeat the bread because they're not really supposed to be eating that bread, but we're feeding it to them and they just keep eating it. Same with us. If we're not eating enough nutrients, then we're not going to hear that we've had enough to eat. But my point is that, your signals are all out of whack because you're still early on. So, give it some time. You’re going to be hungrier during the fast now in the early days, then you will after a body adjusts. So, just be patient with your body. Read the chapter again, like I said, on appetite correction.  

No, you do not want to force yourself to keep eating if you feel full. That is 100% true. But if you're really, really starving during your fast, that could just be the adjustment period and that's going to get better as you go.  

Melanie Avalon: That's such a good reframe. She was obviously thinking that the hunger was from the not eating enough, but it might just be the lack of adaptions. So, let's say she's down the road, and she's been doing IF for a few months, like it for anybody who had been down the road, and are still experiencing hunger. And if it is from not eating enough, what do you recommend in those situations?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, that usually doesn't happen. Especially when she's got an eight-hour window, I would have a really hard time with the idea that she couldn't figure out how to eat enough food in an eight-hour window. You could put two meals in there and it works its way out usually after you're adjusted. This is not something that usually keeps coming up after someone's adjusted.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. I think you answered that.  

Gin Stephens: All right.  

Melanie Avalon: So, we have one last question from Carla. The subject is: “Hormones.” Carla says, “I have heard that IF will help regulate--” She says she's not sure what the exact word is, but your hormones. “How long does this typically take? And how can you tell it is working? When I asked this question to an IF Facebook group, they couldn't answer it, and they just asked if I have insulin resistance? I have no clue. How do I know if I have insulin resistance? I'm so confused.” 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is a very broad question like, “Will IF help regulate your hormones?” The answer is maybe yes, maybe no, depends. It depends on which hormones. Now I totally understand why they asked if you have insulin resistance, because that is one hormone that intermittent fasting will help you regulate your insulin levels. When they asked you, “Do you have insulin resistance?” That was them saying, “Well, if the answer is yes, you have insulin resistance, then yes, intermittent fasting will help regulate that.”  

Hormones are such a broad topic in your body, you've got a lot of different hormones. You've got thyroid hormones, you've got metabolic hormones, you've got so many different-- female hormones. 

Melanie Avalon: Even vitamin D is a hormone. 

Gin Stephens: Right, we can't tell you how intermittent fasting is going to impact all those many things that are going on in your body because it's like a balancing act. One thing that happens over here and that changes something that's happening over there. Intermittent fasting does help get a lot of those things into balance, but it just really depends on what your underlying conditions are. We can't really say this is what IF is going to do because we can't know. It just depends on so many individual factors. So, if you don't know if you have insulin resistance, then maybe you don't. But if you're overweight, if you've been struggling with your weight for a while, you probably do. And if the answer is yes, you've been struggling with your weight for a while, then probably yes, intermittent fasting is going to help with that aspect hormonally, and help with your insulin resistance.  

Melanie Avalon: I think as far as-- Gin said it really well. Hormones, it is such a broad term. I think we do throw it around pretty casually a lot. I already earlier was talking about hormones with-- I mean, progesterone, and that whole world, that's all hormones. I think a reason that IF does in general-- help hormones in general is that a lot of the hormonal dysregulation today often does come from our diet. The foods that we're eating, eating constantly can encourage a lot of hormonal dysregulation. And so having this fasted period, it can regulate in a way or potentially help certain hormones, definitely on the insulin resistance front. That's this very specific area of hormones that's dealing specifically with insulin, which is a hormone that's involved with your fuel use and fuel storage.  

In the dietary aspect of hormones, it's most likely going to really help with that. But then beyond that, all the other hormones, the female hormones, I think in general it tends to help a lot of people, but it really depends on what is your personal hormonal issue as to how it's going to affect that or what it's going to do. So, it's a very broad question. You could work with a knowledgeable practitioner, though, if you wanted to check on some hormones, actually some different resources.  

For example, if you listen to the ad on today's show by InsideTracker, they test for example, some hormones. Not a ton of them, but I think they test. They look at certain blood markers that correlate to metabolic health and longevity. They test the test that they think you need to be testing to really get a picture of your metabolic health. So, they test DHEA, testosterone, and sex hormone binding globulin because they feel like those are the most important hormones to be testing for metabolic health. So, you could check out their panel if you'd like to look into that. And then beyond that, you could work with a physician who could do other hormonal tests, you could do a DUTCH test if you want to look at hormones specifically related to women and estrogen and estradiol. And that is something that you need to look at on a 24-hour. I think it's 24-hours that you do the test and it's a urine test. Insulin would be something that you could test, doctors don't test it that much, but you can ask for it. Your HOMA-IR would be testing your insulin and comparing it to your-- I think your blood glucose and that can give you a good marker of insulin resistance or insulin sensitivity. So, it's a whole world. I encourage you to work with somebody on it. But in general, I do think a lot of people experience hormonal benefits with fasting.  

Gin Stephens: Yep, absolutely. The thing that's so important for people to understand is, intermittent fasting is an amazing tool for help. But it's not the only tool and it doesn't fix everything.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: It also doesn't cause every problem that you might have. It isn't the cause of everything or the effect of everything or the fix of everything. It's a tool that's really useful, it will always be in my toolbox. But sometimes I need a different tool for a job. I got a hammer in there, but sometimes I need a screwdriver.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. I really think that phrase, “When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail,” is a really enlightening phrase, because so many people think when they're looking through a certain lens, they might think everything is one thing, so that fasting will fix everything or that all the problems are from fasting. But there's so much more beyond that.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly.  

Melanie Avalon: Alrighty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode242. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we've talked about. And then you can also follow us on Instagram. I am @MelanieAvalon, and Gin is @GinStephens. Gin, I tagged you today in a photo, did you see that?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. No, I didn't.  

Melanie Avalon: It's the flowers you sent from my birthday.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'll have to look. Well, good. I'm just not really on Instagram a lot. So, I'm trying to still decide. But I will definitely look and see the flowers. I'm looking right now. Oh, there they are. Oh, it looks all fancy.  

Melanie Avalon: See how they bloomed?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you see how they're huge? 

Gin Stephens: They are huge.  

Melanie Avalon: Because when I first sent you the picture, and I should have taken it so that it wasn't all the green ones because there's a lot of pink ones on the other side. When I first sent you the picture, they were closed up. Oh, by the way, random side note. You know how I told you my cucumbers died and I had to start over? 

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Now they're growing again up the windows and today is the first day that a flower, like a massive flower. After this, I got to go pollinate them with my pollinator. Oh, man. I'm excited. 

Gin Stephens: Well, have fun.  

Melanie Avalon: I will and you have fun.  

Gin Stephens: All right, I will. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I guess, I'll talk to you after Thanksgiving, right?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's when we're recording next.  

Melanie Avalon: So, have a fabulous Thanksgiving.  

Gin Stephens: You too.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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