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Welcome to Special Guest Episode 448 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

Jay Campbell is a 5x international best selling author, men’s physique champion, founder of the Jay Campbell Brand/Podcast and Co-Founder of BioLongevity Labs.

Recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on hormonal optimization and therapeutic peptides, Jay has dedicated his life to teaching Men and Women how to #FullyOptimize their health while also instilling the importance of Raising their Consciousness.

Jay’s website JayCampbell.com (where he’s been writing online since 2006) offers some of the most deeply researched articles on the topics of hormone optimization, peptides, fat loss, fitness, and spirituality.

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 448 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 448 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with such a special guest. Friends, prepare to have your minds completely blown. The backstory on today's conversation is last year, by the time this came out, I met in person an incredible human being, Jay Campbell, at the Biohacker Self-Premier in Vegas. I was actually hosting on the red carpet there, and he was one of the guests on my carpet, which was so incredible. And I was actually already familiar with his work because he is a legend in the world of a few topics, peptides in particular, as well as helping people really get shredded, really just optimize their body composition, burn fat, gain muscle, all the things. He is beyond incredible. So I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast for a deep, deep dive into peptides. We just went all out on everything peptides, which I'm sure we will touch on today, but just in case, listen to that episode as well, because it's like the Bible episode now for me that I will refer people to for peptides. In any case, we had that show, and immediately after, I just knew he had to come on this show because you guys are going to love the topics that we talk about. Since then, he has so many books. I read his book, 30 Days to Shreds, which is a really intense protocol, which we're going to talk about, where it outlies based on where you're at, whether you are a beginner, an advanced, or what we will talk about, an FFO approach to radically losing weight, maintaining even potentially gaining muscle, all the things, the supplements to use, the dietary protocol to follow, all of that. And of course, he talks a lot about fasting, and that is just one of his books. He has so many books, and he has just so much knowledge in general. So I'm really excited about this conversation that we're about to have. Jay, thank you so much for everything that you do, and thank you for being here.

Jay Campbell
Melanie, thank you. And that was a very humbling, awesome introduction. I'm grateful to be here as always.

And like I said, you're like one of the best, if not the best podcast interviewer that I've ever worked with. And that's saying a lot because I've been on a lot of podcasts. So I'm very excited today to be in your studio talking to you and having this awesome conversation.

Melanie Avalon
You are simply the kindest and my compliment to echo back this, and I mean this in the nicest way, and you actually on the last conversation, you called me a fellow Jim bro, which I took. So that was like the best moment ever.

You know, you were in that world of quote, like Jim bros, and you are the most, okay, all of the potentially problematic stereotypes that exist there. You are not those, if you know what I mean.

Jay Campbell
I received that and reflect that back, yes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you're so so intelligent. Not I'm not saying I'm not trying to make like negative, you know, stigmas about other people, but you are so intelligent, so nuanced, and really have the information people need to know to, you know, look like the Jim bros.

So I actually have an elephant in the room question about that. But before that, for people who are not familiar with your work, could you tell them a little bit about your personal story? You know, what led you to what you're doing today? That's a big question.

Jay Campbell
And thank you again for that. I'm grateful to be here.

I'm always humbled and privileged and honored whenever I get a chance to talk to a fellow Jim, bro, who really knows their, their way around the space, which clearly you do. So just like a hundred thousand some foot version of my life, ex college athlete, played basketball. was the oldest of nine children, always had this incredible voracious appetite of understanding the human physique, of understanding the human body, why the body performed in the way that it did. And later in my 20s, like I kicked in the testicles playing in adult men's basketball league. At the time I knew none of this, but obviously I learned this later. It shut me down from a hypogonado axis standpoint and I ended up being testosterone deficient in what is called class two hypogonadism, which is essentially an environmental loss or suppression of testosterone. And this was in 1999, Melanie, and fast forward to now and you look around and you notice and understand how prevalent like hormonal deficiencies are in just the overall general populace. I kind of think it was a synchronicity in my life at that time, because I was one month from turning 30 when this happened. And then I became cognizant of the wonderful world of therapeutic hormones. To make a long story short, I basically went to a doctor about seven or eight weeks after getting kicked because I started feeling run down and my body was destroyed. And the doctor that I went to was just a garden variety, PPO, you know, primary care physician. And he recommended me to an endocrinologist. And of course the endocrinologist happened to be a Harvard educated guy. And he put me on therapeutic testosterone and then told me that, you know, eight weeks later he could take me off. But after being on for eight weeks, it was like a transformational change to my body, my mind, everything. And I told him, I said, there's no way you're taking me off this. This is life changing. And from that moment forward, I became this voracious student of biohacking, you know, underground drug and peptide. And, you know, if you want to call them steroids, testosterone, whatever, I just became this like meticulous student of experimenting on myself, you know, being in bodybuilding and various underground anonymous news forums and stuff. Because again, back then in the infancy of the internet, everybody had an anonymous handle, nobody used their real name. So in that time, you know, and let's just call this from like 1999 to 2010, 2011, I was using peptides, I was using testosterone, I was using, you know, micro dosages of steroids, micro dosages of growth hormone, micro doses of everything. So I self hacked myself and that's the best way to say it, or self biohacked myself by experimenting on myself.

And then eventually the smart people in my network said, dude, you got to write books about this because you know so much about this.

Jay Campbell
And at the time, you know, I was just a guy that was in, I worked in digital marketing and advertising, both in the real estate and the automotive space. And I wasn't, you know, whoever the hell I am now today, which is I guess a biohacker slash influencer.

But I learned all this stuff, you know, from a cutting edge standpoint and cut my teeth and all this stuff. And then I started writing books and my first book came out in 2015, it was called the definitive TRT manual. And it became the number one selling book on men's health for Amazon for like, I want to say six months in 2016. And then from there, I wrote four more books, actually seven more books, but four of the next seven, all were international bestsellers. Like you said, there were two books on fasting, the metabolic blowtorch diet, 30 days to shreds, but the testosterone optimization therapy Bible, which is still the number one selling book of all time on therapeutic hormones and really is a Bible. It's 700 pages. There's just so much information in there. I mean, most of the people in the biohacking space, that's kind of where they know me from that book, you know, the Ben Greenfield's, the Dave Asprey's of the world. And then I wrote my book on peptides in 2023 and it came out, you know, again, no coincidence. It's only synchronicities right at the like peak of the vaccine injury part of the world. And so like when the book came out, all these people were looking for alternative forms of healing. And my book just literally happened to come out on Amazon on January 30th, 2023.

And that book, when it came out, it's called Optimize Your Health with Therapeutic Peptides. It was the second book on peptides because the only other book on peptides that was on Amazon was Dr. Seed's book. And, you know, my book has blown by his book from a sales standpoint. And again, it's because it's more relatable, it's more lay, you know, garden variety people who are non-climations can read it and can understand it. But obviously subsequently since then, a lot of people have written books on peptides and truthfully, I'm actually blown away at how quality some of them are. There's some really bad ones, but there's some really good ones. And so my newest book is Coming, which is not out yet, which is actually a book on GLP peptides or how to use GLP peptides. And it's absolutely phenomenal. And I don't know when it's coming out because I'm so busy with scaling my company and doing all these things I'm doing right now.

But my hope is that it'll be in people's hands by, you know, right before Black Friday or sometime like in November. Might even come out the weekend that I'm speaking at Hack Your Health. But that book is really, really good. And my copywriting team has spent a lot of time and editing it and cutting it and doing stuff to make it relatable to the general public. Because I think you know right now that most people will not read anything.

Jay Campbell
They want short 10 second video blurbs. So you got to really make it, you know, to the point, concise, short-handed, how can people use a GLP productively and not go so far deep into the weeds that people will be lost in the science, but at the same time have enough that the clinical people will find value in it.

So it's not an easy job or production today to write a book and to serve both the scientific community and the lay community.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. So many things. So many questions for you there.

And yeah, so for listeners, the peptide book is the one that I read before the interview for the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, which truly was a paradigm shift and which I was actually, I was embarrassed that I hadn't really dived into the peptide world yet. I don't know why I hadn't that much. It has completely opened my eyes. Quick question. Just going off of what you just said with writing a new book and everything with the, I used to say the admin, but I guess with, with the role of AI now, do you find with AI, cause I use it a lot for, well, helping with writing, answering questions, things like that. Do you agree with its perspective on these different topics or does it kind of censor itself, go conventional? I'm just curious about AI.

Jay Campbell
So you're going to be blown away at this and this could be generational. I refuse to use AI.

You don't use it at all Will not absolutely will not I have looked at what people have sent me because again My name is so ubiquitous in peptides and hormones And so I would say 70% of the information that grok uses on about peptides is my information So like I can see where it's wrong and no instantly Right. So you've got you. Here's the problem. You've got a lot of crowd-sourced information Well, look the easiest way to talk about AI and not insult it is garbage in garbage out The signal to noise ratio on the internet now is 95% noise and 5% signal So you can't expect grok or chat GP 3 3 or 4 whatever levels it is or any of the AI processors or computers to truly give you quality information because all it's doing is searching crap and Then mimicking what it finds. That's the crap and the problem with it is that it's so Regurgitates, you know mainstream Calm elite whatever you want to whatever the people or beings that control this realm of existence Like they've got like pattern recognition And so the pattern recognition is always going to default to like the stereotypical stuff And so you're not gonna always get the truth I mean if you really understand how to coach grok you can probably get 95% accuracy, but most people don't So I stay away from it and no I do not use AI to respond to questions or anything like that because it actually drives Me crazy. I know that there's probably some Utilitarian use for it, but I'm just maybe old-school, you know, I mean again, I'm 54 years old. I mean, I'll be 55 in February So it's like I kind of just avoid it But I'm sure there's a lot of ways that I could use it that would really help me like we're doing a documentary On peptides right now and I know the crew they're all like late 30s, you know Early 40s guys that are involved in the production in the direction and they're all like using AI for everything so it's like I understand that it might be a little generational but I Definitely know that you have to be very careful because a lot of the information that it pulls is it is absolutely not true

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that all completely makes sense. Yeah, I use it.

It's funny, I was just doing hiring for my company. And so I was trying to go through like proposals. And one of the filters I use to immediately just like x people off was if I could tell that they used AI for their answers. If I saw long dashes, I was like, nope.

Jay Campbell
No, that's what I mean. Honestly, that's what I would do too.

And it's it's funny you say that because we have so many people that pitch us for my companies to for writing and building funnels and stuff. And that's the first question I say, you know, I literally will respond and say, if you can answer this question, in the next 20 minutes and not use AI, I'll consider having a call with you. That's literally what I say to them. And I would not I'm not joking when I tell you this, that eliminates 95% to 98% of the

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I get concerned, but then I'm like, well, at least I guess people can keep using AI to do all the things, but can they actually like show up in real life? You know? So I don't know.

It's an interesting world to be in. I'll use it. So for emails, I have one trained because I'm an erotic about typos. So I have one called emails and it knows literally just fixed grammar, do not add things, do not use long dashes. And so I'll use that to like really optimize writing emails.

Jay Campbell
I wish I had somebody that could be my assistant, like that's really what I need because I'm such a quantum person. It's so hard, like I've gone through so many people and by the way, I'm like the easiest boss ever because I'm like, I give you full autonomy but I also give you enough rope to hang yourself.

So it's like, I feel like if I could get an AI assistant that could actually go through my emails and delete everything that's non-essential, I would be, it would be the greatest achievement of my life because I cannot, I mean, I'm sure you're the same way. I mean, like I'm a very organized person but I literally cannot see all my emails anymore. And I do have two people that do my calendar and I have a girl that does my live stream stuff but like I can't hire an assistant to go through my emails because the level of like quantum information, they can't process it. You know what I mean? Like I know that sounds egoic but like I've gone through so many people, it's like it's a waste of attempting. And then as you know, you gotta train people. You know, so it's like, you gotta also deal with that. But so I wish I could find an AI that can literally just literally delete all non-essential emails, filter the ones that have to be read like on an every other day or maybe even a daily basis. If somebody could develop something like that, that's when I would say AI would be useful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, I will keep my eyes peeled. If I see it, you'll be texting you. Okay.

So elephant in the room question. We were mentioning like this gym bro world, this world of, you know, becoming shredded, optimizing weight loss, all the things. And something I have found really fascinating throughout the years is on the one hand, we have this culture where like crash dieting is seen as a really horrible thing. And you shouldn't be taking, you know, that like weight loss pills don't work, diet pills don't work. You shouldn't try to lose weight fast. You know, you should go low and slow, lose a little bit a week. Like that's what we're taught as and it has like a like a moral halo to it in a way. Like that's what we should be doing. And we should not be doing these other things. And what I've always been fascinated by and, you know, hearing your background and like we've talked about is I was always in the rabbit hole weeds of the forums and like there are things that do work, you know, and seem like they do help. So what do you say to people who want to lose weight? Oh, A, want to burn fat. B, want to do it fast. Is it possible that that actually could be like a better approach than losing it slow? How do you just handle this elephant in the room of conventional society and the stigma against fast weight loss, diet pills, all the things?

Jay Campbell
It's an amazing question and I would have answered it totally differently 10 years ago than I average it now and I will tell you this. I'm so glad you asked me this question because when this podcast is over, I am writing an email that will go out either tonight or tomorrow that literally says Jay Campbell's ultimate shred protocol for 2025 and this is how relevant your question is to this.

My shred protocol has changed in three months from where it was in April and it's already I would say three to five X better than it was in April and my shred protocols are the best red protocols in the world and the reason that I say that I'm not bragging is because I have this incredibly advanced knowledge of peptides by regulators and small molecules. So think of every tip of the spear bleeding edge product that is out there or available or in the underground community and I'm either using it or no of it, right? So it's like 10 years ago. I would have said fat loss is, you know, methodical slow to do it, right? You know, you have to sacrifice. You have to pretty much starve yourself. You have to become comfortable with being hungry, you know, there's a lot of things that you have to do will power intestinal fortitude. But Melanie, those days are gone. We now live in a world where there are chemical agents at people's disposal that can enhance metabolic rate, can increase glucogen production, can dramatically upregulate thyroid, can dramatically upregulate mitochondrial firepower and density. I mean, there are so many insane metabolic cascades that can be induced from chemicals, peptides, bioregulators, small molecules, GLP peptides, I mean, you name it, that I would be ridiculous and lying if I told somebody they could not literally lose 20% body fat in under 30 days because it's totally possible.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And 10 years ago when you thought low and slow was the way to go, this was while you were still experimenting with different compounds though, right? Oh, a hundred percent.

Jay Campbell
Yeah, I mean, again, and I say this all the time, so this isn't the first time I said this on this podcast, but within 24 months, the world of bodybuilding, performance enhancement, fitness modeling, bikini competitions, you know, whatever you want to call for people that have to get into single digit body fat will be completely transformed. Like the professional bodybuilding world will have people that will be standing on stage 350 pounds with 5% body fat. Like that's literally where we're going because these chemical agents are so transformative and so life altering. And I would also be lying if I told you that they were risky because they're really not.

I mean, you know, you and I on the last podcast, we talked about a little bit about GLPs and I tell people that GLPs actually improve biomarkers. They're enhancing longevity. So you know, the only question is, you know, again, I think you and I talked about this on the last call is, do we as a society blow ourselves up before we get to this level of you call it pharmaceutical enhancement or biomedical or bio biochemical enhancement? I don't know. I think it's coin flip, but I definitely know that the meds and the chemicals that are out there are so mind blowing. I mean, I had a call this morning with a biochemist in China. There is already an injectable peptide. It's not available in the mainstream, but it will be available soon that you can inject into stubborn fat and it literally through apoptosis liquefies the fat and is gone in two days. And it's perfectly healthy. You pee it out or you defecate it out, you know, the dead cells. There's no necrosis. There's no ulcers or sores or anything from the site injection. It literally is like taking an injection of an insulin needle and liquefying stubborn fat. That's not a lie. So that's where we are. And that's why I'm saying that within two years, it will be it'll be it'll be so revolutionary that I can't even in my brain power and my knowledge of all this stuff even comprehend where it will be because it'll be so far ahead of where we are. And that's why I'm saying that literally we are now in a world where every three months is like a 10 year quantum leap.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I have so many questions for you. I love this conversation so much.

It's so interesting because I just remember back in the day when I first started exploring all of this and I would think about it like scientifically. I was like, it makes sense that if we have fat cells that have signaling mechanisms that tell them to do things like release their fat or not, it just makes sense that there would be certain compounds that would help with that. This was me, I guess, feeling weird about wanting to be holistic and go low and slow, but then be like, it just makes sense that there would be things that would do things logically. So actually, quick question for you, and this is crazy timing. That was a moment when you were saying that you'd be lying if you said they were risky. I was like, does he mean not risky? But no, then you followed it up to say that they're relatively safe. Actually, last night, I was actually getting my hair done and the woman getting her hair done next to me was saying, and again, this is like an end of one example, but I think it might speak to a potential larger issue at play. In her business, this is wild, she had two people in her business, both ordered GLP ones from a pharmacy offshore and took high doses. This is really tragic. They actually both got really, really sick.

The first girl got really, really sick, went to the hospital stirring up for days and died, and now the second girl is in the hospital with a similar situation. I'm not saying it was from that. I'm just asking and wondering because especially in her books, and you mentioned this when you were doing your intro about different compounds that people might acquire and bringing in what you were saying about the garbage and garbage out, what is the role of acquiring these different compounds, safety, knowing you're getting what you're getting, dosage? What do we need to know about that?

Jay Campbell
Yeah, it's a great question. And I'm glad you asked this question because for 95% of people, they don't know what they're doing.

And that's what that woman dying is. I mean, that's not atypical, but that's getting sick, destroying receptor sensitivity, regaining the weight, damaging the thyroid, getting wagobi face, wagobi neck, wagobi chin, wagobi ass, all those things are very real, happening, side effects, byproducts, whatever you want to call it, of uneducated use. And we are now in a market, remember what I told you about the signal to noise ratio. The noise is so far drowning out the signal that the average person who attempts to use a peptide like a GLP1 has no earthly idea what they're doing when they take it, none. And unfortunately, our medical establishment, I mean, you know, I'm a very anti-allopathic doctor, I mean, allopathic medicine slash illness medicine proponent, but it has failed miserably, and it is now collapsing in on itself. And so anyone who gets their knowledge from their, quote unquote, garden variety, PCP, family doctor, HMO doctor, whatever you want to call it, and obviously also, you know, precurs prescriptions for what GLPs is headed down a very dark path. They will end in tragic failure. And again, loss of life is, you know, rare occurrence for this, but loss of metabolism, loss of livelihood, loss of muscle, those are all very realistic possibilities and actual probabilities.

So to your question, If you're using these, you better be listening to the right people. You better be understanding that, and again, this is just a garden rule that no one should cross anymore. If you're going to use a GLP1 peptide and you're not going to microdose, it is going to end in colossal failure. And what I mean by that is that the pharmaceutical industry teaches people when they buy GLP peptides to start high and go higher with dosage. And the Jake Hambles of the world, and there are thankfully other people as smart as me teaching people about this, we teach people to start low and go slow. So you've got a massive dichotomy on how you do this. If you start low and go slow, you will not have major side effects. I will say you will probably have no side effects if you truly do understand the lifestyle that comes along with doing this right.

And again, we talked about this on the last podcast, but the lifestyle of using a GLP1 peptide is very simple. There's 10 commandments, but I'll give you three. And number one is, are you living an insulin controlled lifestyle when you're using a GLP? Because if you're not living an insulin controlled lifestyle when you're using a GLP, you don't have the foundations set up correctly. The second one is, are you eating enough protein to avoid muscle loss and catabolism? And enough protein is defined as, are you eating enough grams of protein for your goal body weight? Because a 400 pound man or a 300 pound woman cannot eat that much protein. They have to eat the amount of protein that is their goal body weight.

Jay Campbell
It's actual skeletal muscle weight, but 99% of people can't figure that out. So you just say, what is your goal body weight, right? You're a five, five woman, and you weigh 180. You probably should be 130, right?

You're a six foot guy and you weigh 290. You probably should be 100, 195 to 200 pounds. So it's like, that's the amount of protein you would eat. And then the third rule and third rule might be number one is, are you hormonally optimized? Because if you're not hormonally optimized and you use a GLP drug, which is again, a highly effective drug, and let's talk about defining them just really quick. There's GLP1s, GLP2s, GLP3s. GLP1 is appetite suppression. GLP2 is appetite suppression and glucogen stimulation, which is metabolic rate enhancing. And then GLP3 is all those two things plus the increase in brown adipose tissue, which is again, increasing resting thermogenesis. So you've got like three, two levels of enhanced metabolic rate plus appetite suppression. So if you're, if you're using any of those drugs and you're not hormonally optimized, you're putting yourself behind the eight ball to see muscle loss.

So again, if you're on a man or a woman and you're on therapeutic hormones, whether you're 35 or 65, the likelihood that you're going to lose muscle is very minimal. Okay. So those are the three kinds of ground rules. There's other things that we could throw in there, but I don't want to bring those up for the purposes of this, but obviously anyone who really wants to understand how to do this, I have a course that's like, you know, I give it away for $149. It's called the GLP1 masterclass. And I go over all those things and I go over the 10 commandments and all the different things, but it's very, very simple to avoid the catastrophic things that you talked about in the question that those two women, you know, brought up to you.

And again, average people who go to the doctor and get a GLP scripted are going to end in that, that unfortunate tragic, not death because that's an outlier, but usually you're going to end in muscle loss, thyroid damage, metabolic problems, regaining of weight, you know, adding 25 pounds past the GLP once it fails and just very simply to define for people. And I know you have a super educated listening audience, so I don't have to go that deep, but when a GLP fails, it's because you took the dose from too high to too higher and you eventually either run out of money or you hitch a receptor sensitivity and you desensitize the receptor. So it stops working. And then once it stops working, you've got metabolic hell to pay, right? You've got thyroid damage. Most people are not eating enough protein. They're not lifting weights. They're not doing, you know, resistance training and cardiovascular training. So then once they stop taking the GLP and their appetite comes back, they don't have a metabolism to handle their, you know, their voracious or ravenous appetite. And so they eat way beyond their means and their thyroid is slow.

Jay Campbell
Metabolism is slow. And so they, they regain 20 to 30 pounds.

This is very common, Melanie, very common for people that use GLPs. Now let's not forget that they also have muscle wasting and that's the GLP phase or the wagobi phase or the wagobi neck or the wagobi chin or the wagobi butt or all of these things that you hear about. And they're all very, very true and real side effects, but they're all easily avoided if you know what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon
First of all, thank you so much for all of that. And yeah, I opened with a really intense, you know, version like death. But the, the thing I hear the most is definitely the muscle loss.

And I remember when they first started coming out and people were talking about them all the time and they were saying, yes, they make you lose weight. And everybody, it made it seem like everybody is losing muscle. And I, during that whole conversation, I was thinking, well, you know, are the people eating protein? Like, are they supporting their muscle or are they just losing a lot of weight? And so they're losing muscle along with it.

Jay Campbell
No one loses muscle if you do this right. I mean, I am living proof of this. I've been using GLPs for four years. The GLP4, which is CAS 931, which is actually called bio-lipoetics or something like that, is coming. It's within, I don't know, we're estimating somewhere between three to six months being released. The manufacturers of the drug are hiding the CAS number so the research community can't get it and manufacture it, you know, and bootleg it like they do with everything else, which is actually a big joke, but there's no muscle loss.

And that's why I was telling you that like these drugs are so powerful in their nutrient partitioning, in their improving insulin sensitivity, enhancing again metabolic rate, that for people that are using, you know, testosterone, growth hormone, growth hormone, agonist, peptides, you know, recombinant, follow statin, you know, all these very advanced molecular drugs and biochemical wonder products are only going to like the biggest bodybuilders in the world now like that competed the Olympia, you know, are probably 260 to 275 shredded on stage. You're looking at 75 to 100 pounds heavier within the next two years and leaner because of the drugs. Yeah, that's where we're going. Incredible. Which proves there's no muscle loss, by the way. You just have to do it right. And again, the average person is not doing it right. Is it their fault or their doctor's fault? I would say it's a combination, but it's most of the it's mostly the doctor's fault because they're the ones prescribing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, okay. And I just love that you're, you know, illuminating these concerns and fears and, you know, explaining what's actually going on there.

I had made a note from your Your 30 Days to Shreds book, because there were a few different, few different things of these that you mentioned, like you were saying, and I think we might have touched on all of them right now, but you were saying, for example, that like metabolic damage is not going to happen, even though this seems like a very extreme protocol, because you're doing it right. And then you talk about you had a whole section, which I loved on the problem with studies showing muscle loss with fasting, for example, and, you know, why that's also not a concern when it's done correctly. I have a really random nuanced, or like a rabbit hole question, but you say a lot throughout your work, and we talked about it, how important being lean is for longevity and health. And you also say how important having muscle is for health and longevity. And this is a false dichotomy, because we're not going to aim for this. So nobody wants to do this. I just think these sort of questions kind of can provide interesting information. So if a person had to choose between being super lean versus being super muscled, but not lean is one of those preferences.

Jay Campbell
So that's not possible so so that's the so the confusion is what people think so if you're super lean you're super muscular You understand you can't be one or you can't be one without the other So like if you are like say single-digit body fat as a man and you're let's say 12 or 13 percent body fat as a woman That means that the rest of your body is bone and muscle so you can't be You know, but but to your question because it's a good one because again, let's think of it visually most people When they think super lean they think skinny with a six-pack and then they think muscular The big bulky bodybuilder look right where it's the same thing It's just the big bodybuilder has more muscle fiber typing, you know Our cross-sectional muscle fibers due to their training than the person that's super lean But that but the amount of muscle like per pound or you know Square inch of real estate on the bodies are the same and it's also the Versus the same I get in these conversations with people all the time and they're really confused about this I'm not saying you are of course, but most people are like you can be extremely skinny and obese And that's what people don't understand body composition has all to do with training I mean I get people and again, I don't want to make fun of them But I should because they're so stupid But like a message me and they're like, I mean honestly think about this for a second They'll be like 46 years old and they'll tell me they'll send me a picture of themselves and I look at them And I'm like, oh, that's 45% body fat and you're skinny, right?

And I'll be like they'll be like I don't understand why you know This has to be a guy for example, like I don't understand why my dick doesn't work. I have erectile dysfunction. Look at me I'm not fat and then I'll go back to him and I'll be like how much do you lift? And they'll be like I've never lifted a day in my life and I'll be like dude Your body fat is 45 to 50 percent. Have you ever had your body composition tested? No, man I just look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, yeah, I just looked at your picture You're fat and soft you have insulin resistance your dick doesn't work because you do not have Anything but this real body fat in your belly and it's causing a cytokine storm and all of your endocrine machinery doesn't work So it's like you you have to understand that like body composition is literally everything The fatter and softer and more insulin resistant you are the higher your inflammation The higher the levels of cytokines the higher the levels of you know, cellular degradation I mean all of these things are relative to how lean your body is So again, if you're under 10% as a man, then all you have is muscle and bone And if you're under say 15% for a woman, which is super elite, then all you have is muscle and bone So you don't have to be big and bulky. That's just excess muscle from your training But if you're under 10% body fat as a man You're doing something right and under 15% as a woman you're doing something right and obviously that's reflective of your training

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. That makes sense.

Yeah, no, it does completely. And I wonder, so like without example of people who like, can't quite see themselves, I wonder how much that has to do with the body point set point of the cultural lens we look through with today's culture since everybody, our collective weight is higher. Because, you know, you look back at pictures of like the 1920s people on the beach and people just looked completely different or like old game shows. I wonder with the GLPs and how everybody seems, I feel like people are losing weight now starting to systemically, I wonder if our collective, like view of weight will also lower again.

Jay Campbell
Well, so my my take on this and I don't want to offend anybody is like all this like fat acceptance movement nonsense That's happened in the last four to five years.

Whatever you want to call it, you know with the commercials and everything look No one is healthy.

Who's fat whether you accept that that they're fat and it's okay That's like a cultural moray or norm that is now like looked at in society is okay But let's not let's not get confused if you are fat.

You are not healthy you have Cellular markers that say you have insulin resistance and metabolic dysregulation.

That is a fact There is no avoiding that just because it's acceptable doesn't mean you're healthy So we don't want to confuse those two things even though society has like mismatched it to the point where it's like You know, it's okay to be fat And we should accept fat people.

I mean, yeah, of course you can accept anybody for anything But that does not make them healthy and again ultimately at the end of the day You will live the longest by being the leanest and again, i'm not telling people to be under 10 percent You know I think it's healthy for most men to be somewhere between like 15 and 18 percent And women to be somewhere between like 15 and 22 percent But once you get over 25 percent as a man or a woman You're not going to live as long as people who are leader than that.

It's very very simple And again, the statistics show this you're not going to go to any senior citizen homes and find fat people They're not alive.

They're dead So like, you know, are people living longer now heavier, you know, uh, more obese more Metabolically dysregulated insulin resistant.

Absolutely.

But are they living productively?

No They're you know, they're living in nursing homes or they're living in outpatient centers or you know They've got an oxygen tank and a wheelchair and you know that kind of stuff And so I you know, I kind of look at it as like, you know What is the difference like how do you define life you define life by the quality or the quantity?

And so medical which has failed and is a you know, an abomination is keeping people alive longer But it's not keeping people healthier.

Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, completely. And I could not agree more.

I think it's honestly a travesty that there is a movement called health at every size. I think it should be called love yourself at every size, you know, but it's not health. And also it makes people, because I don't think people feel good when they're in this, you know, obese situation of a body. It can't feel good. It's impossible.

Jay Campbell
You're a human cytokine storm when you're obese.

Melanie Avalon
And then you feel like if you don't, if you want to change that, that's not accepting yourself, which is so backward. Like, I just don't agree. I don't think it's.

Jay Campbell
No, no, I mean, I mean you and I we aren't gonna because there's a lot of great information to cover on this podcast, but like You know, I get into it with people every now and then when I lecture or when I do, you know Zoom webinars for clinics and stuff and i'll always have that one clinician Or nurse practitioner or somebody who's 300 pounds And she will like say like well, what about so and so she's healthy and it'll be like, you know Some fat olympic athlete or short sprinter, you know, who's not fat really she's like heavily muscled But she's like chunky, you know, and i'll be like dude like are you serious? But I mean look this is more reflective, you know, like that healthy at any size movement That's more reflective of the delusional nature of society Than it is about talking about health and wellness Because again people want to like reinforce, you know Again delusion.

I mean that's the best way to call it versus reality Which is no one is healthy. That is obese If you tell yourself or anyone that you're healthy as an obese person you are lying that is a lie There is nothing healthy about obesity nothing

Melanie Avalon
same page there. And I, like I said, I just feel bad because I feel like it makes people feel like they are not accepting themselves if they're not happy in that situation.

Jay Campbell
I love the love yourself. And look, I'm very outspoken about obesity. My mom died of COVID, but my mom was morbidly obese. It was a very like scarlet letter for me because of all the knowledge I have and all this stuff and I could never help her.

And I tried so hard in my 20s, tried was the operative word because I did nothing. But again, you said it. Until a person feels worthy of changing who and what they are, they're never gonna do it. And if you or I or any healthy person, you know, attempts to help a person who is not healthy get healthy and they're not actually motivated intrinsically to do it, they're not going to last. They will go, they will automatically default back to the level that you started a mat. And that's the one thing that I had to learn, you know, as whatever I am, a health professional or whatever, you know, I could not proselytize. I could not attempt to awaken anyone else. Like they have to be ready to do the work, right? It's the whole, you know, the teacher appears when the student is ready. You cannot make a person change who isn't ready to change. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Completely and first of all, I'm so sorry about your mom. I'm really sorry

Jay Campbell
Oh, it's okay. I mean, she got you know, she actually died of COVID, which was a scam. You know, they gave her remdesivir in the hospital, and she was dead like two days later. But you know, they got their $120,000.

I mean, we all know, who knows how many people, peers, relatives, friends and family that died of a COVID diagnosis. And it wasn't COVID. It just they ruled it that because the state or the federal government reinvented. Yeah, they refunded the hospital. It's insane.

Melanie Avalon
That's really horrible. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

And that's the reason actually a reason I love podcasting. You're talking about the teacher, like, you know, letting them come to you type thing. I love having podcasts because then I'm not trying to change anybody. Like I can just put the information out there and then the people who want to listen when they're ready, can listen and do the things.

Jay Campbell
That's all you can do. That's literally, it's like when you're in the gym and you see somebody who has absolutely no idea what they're doing, lifting or training or whatever. And, you know, in the goodness of your heart, you're like, ah, I should go over there. And I should teach them the correct technique or I should teach them the correct rec. But that's service to self. That's not service to others.

If they come to you and they ask you for help, now you are perfectly okay to assist. But if you walk up there attempting to help them, even if they're doing the worst form and you know what they're doing is gonna hurt them, that's service to self, that you have no right to intervene.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree so much. So to that point, people coming here to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, like I said, you have so many books in your 30 Days to Shreds protocol, it does heavily involve fasting. So listeners, we're not even gonna even remotely be able to capture all of the incredible information in Jay's books, so go get them now.

But to give people an idea, so like I said, I read the 30 Days to Shreds and there's these three different pathways that you can take, whether you're Beginner Advanced or FFO, which stands for, what does it stand for?

Jay Campbell
Fully effin' optimized.

Melanie Avalon
I have a quick question because at the beginning you figure out which one you are. What if you are different levels for the different categories?

What if for supplements you feel like you're one thing, for diet you feel like you're another, for training you feel like you're another, do you create a hybrid or do you pick one?

Jay Campbell
Yeah, it's a great question. You got to use your intuition. I mean, you usually we kind of defer to the higher end. So it's like if you're a supplement junkie, but you've never fasted, you would be probably in the middle. You know what I mean?

Versus, I mean, the only people that should be like literally like the newbie version or the virgin version or people that have done nothing who literally are clueless, and they're picking up the book, they're not hormonally optimized. They don't know their blood work. They're just absolutely utterly clueless, but they know they need to work. You know, it's hilarious. This is a perfect trend. So I just had somebody on my live stream on Sunday night on my live stream shows, and they're from the root cause Institute in cancer. And they're two of the smartest people that I've ever spoken to in my life. I would actually say the guy, I should actually, you should interview them for one of your podcasts because they cure cancer and I mean, they cure cancer. And these people are the two smartest people. They're like ascended masters in human bodies. Right. And so I saw an interview with this guy and I just literally being me, I reached out to his contact page and said, look, I don't know if you know who I am. Here's who I am. But I listened to an interview you did. And I would love to interview you because we, we, we speak the same language and the same lingo. And I think it would be amazing. And the guy wrote me back in 10 minutes. He's like, bro, I've been following you. I've been, I've been listening to the Jake Hamill podcast for six years. It was crazy. So I was like, oh my God, this is insane. So I mean, again, like minds follow like minds vibe, retract your tribe. So I had them on and they had the five stages of awakening. Now I'm going to give it to you right now because it's perfect for this podcast, but stage one is indoctrination, which means that most people never get by indoctrination, right? Because they believe in big pharma, big food, church, big Agra, you know, the external savior. And then number two is physical aspects of health detoxing, right? So they, that's the biggest step, right? Leaving the indoctrination, moving to the second step, which is like, Oh shit, I got to take care of my physical body. And so how do I detox my physical body? And you know, my wife, you know, Monica has this great statement that she said 10 years ago. And she was like, most people don't value their health until it's gone. And I know you know that because I'm sure you've had a lot of other brilliant minds on this podcast and talked about it, but think about how crazy that is that we live in a world right now where the average person, this is by the way, the average person doesn't even care about their physical body. They just exist in it. They eat, they don't exercise. They eat like shit. They drink copious amounts of alcohol, smoke, weed, smoke, vape, smoke, cigarettes, do horrible things to their body, focus on their business or focus on being a dad or whatever.

Jay Campbell
But then eventually their body just gives out. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you can just get to that awareness, again, past the indoctrination stage where it's like, Oh, my physical health matters. Now you can take ownership.

Now you can actually take, you know, meaningful initiative and with intention and obviously with massive action, and you could do anything you want. You can absolutely go from 350 pounds to 180 pounds. Right. So it's the mindset of like being aware that the physical body matters and how do we detoxify and we detoxify it by listening to podcasts like this, you know, buying books about fasting, you know, understanding how to do all these things. But I just, it's crazy when you really boil it down, how many people aren't living their life in alignment with the idea that the body does matter.

Melanie Avalon
I actually have a question about that, that ties in perfectly, which is because I completely understand what you're saying and I actually think about that a lot when I see stuff on social media and a lot of influencers who are the influencers who what they do is like taste all the like all the crumble cookies or like, you know, all the all the food and which is and this is going to relate to my question because there is an aspect of you wanting to enjoy life and everything like that. And at the same time, I'm like, I feel like they just don't, they just like people who are doing this like 24 seven, I'm like, do I just wish it's like they don't even see what this is doing to their health in the future.

My question is you have two pillars of diet. And one is, you know, a largely unprocessed foods diet. And then the second one is actually not letting your diet become neurotic and affect your, you know, your social life and your mental health and wellness. And I'm paraphrasing those two pillars. But that's like the vibe I got. So how do how do people how do we handle that? How do we handle like, enjoying life, having the food, doing, you know, eating the things, and also respecting our body being healthy? Like, how do we do that's a really hard thing for a lot of people.

Jay Campbell
It's an awesome question. And again, the answer is different 10 years ago than it is now. I mean, obviously 30 days to shreds. And by the way, you're the first person for me to say this to other than like my insider group, the fruit fasting has made me reexamine. My awareness towards dieting because when again, I don't want to rabbit hole because I want to answer your question, but we now know that fruit fasting, if you do it correctly, increases metabolic rate by 20%. So if you can increase your metabolic rate by just eating fruit, you will dramatically increase your body's ability to burn fat.

Okay. Now we can go deeper on that in a second, but like I'm telling you that because my answer to your question used to be that it's simple. I developed a diet one day you eat. If you're doing everything right, you're hormonally optimized. You're using, you know, growth hormone, agonist, peptides, or even growth hormone itself as a microdose. You're using mitochondrial optimizing things. You can dramatically increase your metabolic rate and you can enjoy food every other day, right? And on the days that you enjoy food, you're also trading with weights or resistance so you can, you know, you increase your body's insulin sensitivity, which obviously helps you digest, you know, carbohydrates, protein, and fat more easily because your, your body is like an insulin sump pump because you're building muscle. But now because we understand fruit fasting and again, this fruit fasting, when I say we understand this, this is four months old. So this is like absolutely tip of the spear. You've got Nick Norvitz now who's out there, you know, the Harvard educated nutritionist. There's now a friend of mine five months ago. He was attacking this and now he's writing about like, oh my god, like we don't even understand nutrition. We don't even understand metabolic capacities. We don't understand molecular dynamics. There's, there's things that we're learning that we have to overturn, you know, from the walls of thermodynamics because we never understood about phosphofructokinase, which is this rate-linomating enzyme that handles fructose consumption and fructose digestion. And now we have FGF21, which is this endocrine hormone that is massively upregulated in the presence of lots of fructose from fruit and it increases metabolic rate by 20%. Now, I'm not joking when I say this, there's studies and research out there on this. Imagine increasing your metabolic rate by 20% in addition to being hormonally optimized, in addition to be using human growth hormone or a growth hormone agonist peptide, like Tessamorel and Ipomerone or CJC, in addition to using mitochondrial optimizing peptides like BOTC, SS31, injectable 5-amino, NAD+, and then doing that understanding that you're, you know, your fruit fast is 20%. I mean, Melanie, you're increasing your metabolic rate by 35%.

Melanie Avalon
Is this only eating fruit? Only eating fruit.

Jay Campbell
Yes, this is I'll get to it. I'll break it down and show you like what I've done and what I'm doing But I'm going to Aruba next Thursday with my wife And I have been playing around with the fruit fast Again, the the internet knows it is a sugar fast, but that's a misnomer And we shouldn't say that because to do this right you're eating fruit only you're not You know, you can get away with eating gummy bears and licorice, you know non-fat just pure sugar Of candy, but you shouldn't because it's bad for your teeth and it's just you know, it's bad I mean again metabolically your body can handle it because it's just pure glucose or sucrose But you don't want it you want to eat fructose But the bottom line is i'm going to Aruba next Thursday with my wife And I will be the leanest most shredded Most muscular that i've ever been in my life at 54 from literally doing 10 days of fruit fasting I'll be way more Leaninger and way more muscular and way more energized than I ever would be from doing 30 days to shreds No, don't get me wrong.

You can do a 30 days to shred protocol like in my book Which is again, you know for the lay community that doesn't know what it means It's like every other day fasting on the day that you and I mean no food fasting It's so funny. You can't say fasting anymore. You got to say fruit fasting or no fasting for people to really understand

Melanie Avalon
It's like all different types.

Jay Campbell
Yeah, but so but the reality is it's like you can follow my 30 days of shreds protocol and you can get absolutely shredded But the difference between that protocol and fruit fasting is you will be way less energized because again, you're not eating You know as you know in the book There's there's periods of 48 to 60 hours of fasting and the fatter you are the more you should be doing those because you'll lose fat faster per unit of time, but you can now do this and not be depleted energetically because you're not eating any food and just eat fruit and Enhance metabolic rate dramatically when you're not enhancing metabolic rate when you're just not eating Look, there's some metabolic rate increase because obviously if you get into trace ketosis, you know in a 48 to 60 hour fast window There is some increased, you know FGF 21, which again is the endocrine hormone that's responsible for enhancing metabolic rate But it's minimal compared to fruit fasting So it's like, you know I'm a scientist even though I'm not a technical scientist But I'm capable of changing my opinion and adopting, you know information when we get more science to prove that you know We should change. There's a lot of people that won't change But I'm you know here to say that hey, you know, if what I know now If I was gonna you know write a Part 2 or a part 3 because it's technically part 3 30 days of shreds because the first book was the metabolic blow towards diet It was really the the origin or the genesis of that and then this was part 2 part 3 would would say hey, I've got a new improved way to do this and the new improved way to do this is eating fruit every other day and so you don't lose energy you don't have a Decline in performance because that's the thing, you know anyone who follows 30 days to shreds protocol can get absolutely shredded But you're gonna have energy deficits on the days that you're fasting for 48 to 60 hours Or you know the two and a half day window the weekend window you stop eating Friday night You eat again on you know 6 a.m. On Monday morning. You're gonna be tired on Sunday afternoon You know You're doing your two cardio sessions on that on that 48 hour to 60 hour window on Sunday or whatever if you're doing it from Friday night to Sunday morning and you're gonna be tired It's gonna be hard to do that Versus if you're just eating fruit you have all the energy in the world and you're not having any kind of muscle degradation or catabolism because the FGF 21 is a Anabolic endocrine hormone that's muscle sparing. So increasing metabolic rate by 20% and sparing Muscle tissue so a lot of people come at me. I'm getting deeper into the fruit fast now So a lot of people will come at me and they'll say oh, bro That's only for enhanced bros like you, you know, Mark Bell is like one of the biggest proponents of this right now He's like all over the internet talking about this and he's a good friend of mine and he really exposed me to this He's not the guy that created this the guy that created.

Jay Campbell
This is a guy by the name of Joe Binley and he goes by Joe English on Instagram because he's in England. He's from England He's got the massive UK twang, but but the reality is that this diet works for anyone obese insulin resistant lean If in fact, I will say this and I say this to everyone now and like I said when this podcast ends I'm writing an email tonight.

That's gonna detail You know this like Quantified after using it for four months now of like how to do this, right? But any person can do this diet and in one month Probably lose 20 to 25 percent body fat and not have any energy deficit and feel fine and continue to eat on days That you would have normally been fasted on my 30 days to shred protocol. It's crazy It is it is without a doubt 100% unequivocally scientifically the strongest best fat loss diet known to man It's better than keto. It's better than carnivore and remember when I say that I'm the guy that helped Lyle McDonald write the first book on ketogenic dieting I was in a ketogenic diet for three years and I was in a cyclical ketogenic diet So I have more experience than any of the keto and carnivore people I've forgotten more about this shit than those people know and the problem with keto and carnivore in comparison to this diet is After a while and remember I told you this on the last podcast you in you retard insulin metabolism So people that are on long-term carnivore diets have high a 1c values Because their insulin production is ineffective and inefficient.

In fact, I could argue it actually stops working And so a lot of these people that have been on long-term carnivore They go get their a 1c and they've got like a 5.7 or 5.8 a 1c, which is they're like type 2 diabetic Right. So it's like you have to be very cautious. You know, you use the word nuance. I love that word But if you do the fruit fast correctly And there's only a couple exceptions for people, by the way, just so I can say it. And I want to say that the exceptions for fruit fasting people are people that have sevarious NGFL, right? They have the, what do you call it, fatty liver disease. And those people are the only ones that should be extra cautious with doing the fruit fast.

And I mean that by like getting your labs before you start, you know, not eating like dates or raisins or like very, you know, not starchy, but heavy fructose. You know, you want to eat a lot of citrus fruits like watermelon and peaches and pineapple and apples and applesauce and plums and berries and things like that. But I'm telling you, it works better than anything. I know hundreds, if not thousands of people right now, because they're all messaging me because I'm like one of the biggest people that are out there talking about this now who have started this diet and said, holy shit, I thought you were crazy. Holy shit. I've never, I mean, I'm insulin resistant. People are rebooting their thyroid production and rebooting their insulin sensitivity and their insulin production. Just call it their fasting glucose is going down because the more you increase insulin sensitivity by eating all these fructose carbs, the faster your metabolism comes.

Jay Campbell
So literally no exaggeration. I'll just tell you really quick for the listening audience and then you can go whatever rabbit hole you want down on this. But basically this is a diet where you basically, let's say you start on Monday, you eat nothing but fruit all day Monday. You eat no protein, no fat. It's just fruit.

You drink. I mean, literally as I'm, because I'm on this hardcore right now, I've been drinking matz apple, apple cherry juice the whole time I've been talking to you. So fruit juice, apples, pears, pineapple. I love crushed pineapple. I love cubed pineapple, bananas. I mean, if you really want to eat raisins, you know, you can, but I mean, I kind of tell heavier set people to stay away from that. You do the same thing on Tuesday. Depending on your training, you know, I recommend you lift weights like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and I'll explain the Friday, Saturday lifting in a second. But like today was my Wednesday lifting. I lifted with my wife at about 11, 10 45. I was done about 12. I came home and I had grass fed beef and sweet potatoes. So I ate my first like carb non fruit and obviously protein in two days.

And now since then I've been just working and now I'm talking to you on a podcast and I've been drinking this whole entire bottle of matz apple cherry juice. And then tonight I will eat another protein and dry carb like rice. It'll probably be like shrimp or white fish and rice. And then I'll go to bed and then tomorrow morning I'll jump right back into the fruit fast. I'll just eat nothing but fruit on Thursday and I'll eat nothing but fruit on Friday. I'll train again on Friday. I might not train on Friday. I might just do cardio, but remember when you're eating fruit, you're getting somewhere between, you know, depending on the size of the person somewhere between 350 and 650 grams of carbs a day and pure fructose, which again, when you hear that you instantly as a nutritional person or someone who thinks that like all that sugar from fructose and carbs is bad for you. It's going to make you fat. It's the opposite. So your body is massively upregulating through the enzyme phosphofructokinase. It's upregulating this endocrine hormone called FGF 21, which is fiberglass growth factor at 21, which massively increases metabolic rate, which shreds you, makes you leaner, gives you more energy.

And everyone sees this after the first two days. So anyway, to continue on Friday, more fruit, go to bed. If you have to have like dry starch or something like that, because you're craving dry starch, you can have white rice and salt. You can eat like sourdough bread. I mean, there's, you know, Joe Binley has a book. I'll send you the book, you know, after this call and you can read the book, but you know, I have my own protocol so I can send you that too.

Jay Campbell
I've actually written about this on IG and X. And so a lot of people have followed the threads and stuff like that. But basically on Saturday, if you want to have like a depletion workout, like late Saturday morning, you know, 15 to 20 reps, a couple sets, you know, get your body massively glycogen depleted, and then all day Saturday, just eat dry carbs and protein. And then on Sunday, it's kind of like you could probably eat whatever you want because you've gotten so ripped from eating all that fruit during the week.

And so then you basically assess your body composition. If you're a heavy person, you're probably gonna have to do this for a month, maybe six weeks. If you're somebody like me or you and you wanna just get into absolute the best peak condition you could be so you look great in a bikini for an exotic vacation or maybe you're competing or doing a photo shoot, you might need one more week. I'm going to Aruba next Thursday and so I'm gonna do it Monday through Thursday again. And then we fly to Aruba and then my wife and I are gonna probably hopefully get some pictures in Aruba, maybe on the beach, super lean and shredded. And then I'll just go back into my normal lifestyle of like normal, whether I do 30 days of shreds. I mean, normally when I eat normally, I probably eat omnivore on my training days and then on my non-training days, I fast, like no food fast for maybe 16 to 18 hours. And then I eat omnivore couple meals. So that's like my normal lifestyle eating. But again, when I wanna fruit fast now, I can get absolutely shredded. And when I say shredded, I mean, I'm talking like 5% body fat. I can go from 10 to five in 10 days. And yes, I can do that in 30 days to shreds by no food fasting, but I'm much more depleted. It's much harder. Cardio is much harder. I have less energy. Now the people listening to this are gonna be like, oh, Jay's crazy. I mean, he might have fat loss, but what about his biomarkers? Is he increasing the load on his liver because of, he's got all this fructose coming into the liver and the liver is rate limited enzymatically and breaking down glucose and storing glucose in the liver. And they're all good questions and people from a universal dogmatic understanding of nutrition have a right to ask those questions. But what they don't understand, and this is what Nick Norvitz is talking about and I'm talking about now is that this is flipping the biochemical equation in the presence of nothing but fruit. Now this is the most important thing, Melanie. Fruit without protein and fat. The body goes into hypermetabolic mode and increases again through the conversion of phosphofructokinase, this again, super powerful endocrine hormone called FGF21, which is fiberglass growth factor 21. And that massively increases metabolic rate and glycation and burns through all the fructose and the glucose from whatever you're eating. And in the process of burning it out, you feel better, you're more energized, you're shredding body fat, because again, you have an increase in metabolic rate.

Jay Campbell
And by the way, this is just from the fruit. If you're doing all the other things, right? Metabolic optimizing peptides like MotC or SS31 or 5-Amino or SS or NAD+, or taking sloop, SLU, PP-332 or any of those things, Metasred, the stuff that we sell at BioLongevity Labs, you're increasing your metabolic rate by another 10 to 12 to 15%. So again, what I told you in the beginning of this call that people can now in 10 to 14 days lose five to 7% body fat, if you're a lean person naturally or you keep yourself in decent condition, in that short amount of period when you're already that lean, that's unheard of. But this is all possible now.

So we're now in a totally different time and age when people who understand these things can completely and dramatically alter their body composition in the shortest amount of time possible. And again, totally healthy, because what I haven't told you is that Mark Bell, and by the way, I'm getting all my labs done at the end of August. When we get back from Aruba, it'll be three and a half months. Actually, it'll be almost four months that I've been playing around with this. And so I'm gonna get all my labs and my biomarkers done. But I've looked at tons of people who've been on this diet longer than me, and all of their biomarkers have improved. In fact, Mark Bell's fasting glucose is 2.7, which is insane. Like it doesn't even pencil. It makes no sense. They're like, how can someone be eating 650 to 750 grams of sugar through fructose of fruit every day and have a glucose level below 2.9? It's insane. It doesn't make any sense metabolically, but that's because we've never understood what this FGF21 endocrine hormone does in the absence of protein and fat. So we were always looking at fructose. but we weren't looking at it in isolation. We were looking at it with the combination of fat and protein being consumed around it. It's the protein and fat that inhibits the FGF21 production. So again, this is all new science. No one knew about this. It's turning everything upside down. There are thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands of people now around the world using the fruit fast and they're losing body fat at rates never before seen. And again, in the presence of like good health factors and longevity factors, it's not doing anything negative. Now that doesn't mean that we won't see things, six months, eight months, nine months from now that tells us, oh, you know what? We can do this, but we also have to take this supplement, right? Because like Joe Binley will say, the guy that wrote the book on this, he'll say, well, you need Tudka. You need supplements to support the liver. You also need like choline or choline by tartrate for also to help with like bio production and bioflow and stuff like that. So there's probably things that we'll do to tweak this diet as we learn more and more about it. But for now, in the short term, most people are seeing incredible body composition changes and also improved biomarkers, which when you're really measuring fat loss and body composition change, that's all that really matters.

Melanie Avalon
So I was doing like the keto diet, the low carb, and I got really alert by the idea of fruit and I was really scared to start eating carbs again because I had entered what I think happens to a lot of people is they get stuck in this low carb world and they think if they have carbs, they're going to gain weight and

Jay Campbell
Well, you will remember, if you've done it a long time, it does retard insulin metabolism. So in the short term, you will hold water and you will gain weight, a hundred percent.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So I realized though, I was like, you know what, I think the problem is the carbs and the fat together. So I was like, what if I'm having the high protein still, but I switch my like fuel source from primarily fats, primarily carbs and make that primarily fructose because I just went down the rabbit hole of, I thought there was a lot of benefits to fructose. So I basically switched to like a high protein, high fruit diet with fasting. So like daily fasting and then eating high protein and high fruit at night.

And that's why I have a question about the FGF 21. Doing that, my blood sugar lowered. I lost weight. My energy came back. I was like, oh, I was like, hold on.

Jay Campbell
about the fruit. So the only problem with what you did, and by the way, what you did works in 99% of people. Everyone who does this experiences what you experience. They experience enhanced energy.

They experience improved insulin sensitivity and production. So again, insulin is right. Remember the key and critical metabolic hormone. I mean, we want to control insulin to live longer, but at the same time, we want to also have ability to modify our insulin for energy production. And so when you're eating fruit all the time, you have insane energy, you know, and that's why like when you're doing this and you're working out again, the fruit fast and in your call it your fruit fast windows, you never are tired. Like people stop drinking coffee, Melanie, they stop taking caffeine. They stop taking anything that enhances mental focus or, you know, improves alertness because you don't need it. So again, this is why I like this more so now than my 30 days to shred, which again, I have to say is my no food fasting thing.

Because again, when you're not eating, sure, there's benefits. You're removing senescent cells, you're increasing hermet or hormesis. You know, there's a lot of other benefits to doing that. But as you know, as the time goes through the day and you're at 19 or 20 or 21 hours of no food, you become less energetic. Like there's no avoiding that. Yeah, you could take stems and shit like that, but that's no good because obviously you're now you're screwing with your adrenals and as I always say, what goes up must come down. But when you're just taking insulin, I mean, improving your insulin production through drinking fruit and consuming fruit, again, most importantly, in the absence of protein and fat, you're not getting fatter. You're improving metabolic rate, again, through the increase of phosphofructokinase and FGF 21.

And there's a there's an anabolic effect. It again is protein sparing when you have all that insulin from the fruit. So you can't. And this is where all the bros get mad. They're like, oh, it's only for people that are enhanced. No, it will do the same thing for a non-enhanced person as an enhanced person will spare muscle tissue. So you will not lose fat. I mean, excuse me, you will not lose muscle tissue. So the only thing to you, what you were saying is, and again, I think people are metabolically different, you know, based on genetics and stuff like that. But the protein excess protein with the rice or with the fruit will kick down or out of elevated FGF 21. You'll still get the benefit of the higher insulin, but you won't have the fat loss that you would have in the absence of protein.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah, my question was, was it, you know, equally the fat and protein affecting the FGF21, you know, more the fat? It's literally, it's literally the fructose.

But the protein does affect it, not just the fat.

Jay Campbell
The protein, so it's the, so Nick Norwitz just did an awesome article about this the other day, and Nick is an absolute dorky guy, genius, but just dorky guy. And he is a pro keto bro before all of this. And so it's blown his mind apart because he was like, this is not possible. I know everything there is to know about nutrition.

So now he's deep down this rabbit hole, but it's the absence of protein that's really stoking the FGF21 fires. So you could probably have, and this is important. And again, this is in the book. And you know, when I send you my protocol, you'll understand it, but you can have MCT oil, you can have palmitic acid. You can have stearic acid and those fats elevate FGF21. So like you can get like palm oil or kernel oil, but again, MCT oil, you know, is usually the best, but so you could take a lot of MCT oil and fruit and you would be fine and you'll keep blasting FGF21. The type of protein that you take is the type is what is going to really fuck up FGF21 production and it's isoleucine. So it's basically chicken whey protein, turkey, anything with a lot of isoleucine is going to absolutely destroy FGF21 production. So if you're going to eat protein when you're doing this and you want to keep FGF21 pretty high, it's going to be white fish, shrimp, scallops, and then the only protein powder that you could take would be collagen. And Nutricost has a really good blend of chocolate, peanut butter, chocolate, and salted caramel that you can get on Amazon and you can drink that post-workout with MCT oil, even on your fruit fasting days and get away with it and not knock yourself out of high levels of FGF21.

Melanie Avalon
The last time that I had heart alcohol, I might have had it like once or twice since then, but in college. And it was because I was always doing like crazy diet experimentation. So I decided to do a fruit fast actually. And I was going to do it for three days, but I decided to just eat apples. So I ate just apples for three days. I felt so amazing, like literally so amazing.

I kept going. I did it for 11 days. And then I went to film school prom, a party, and I had some, oh, and I cut out caffeine and everything. Like I felt so high. And then I had, I had just the normal amount of alcohol I would normally drink. And it literally, it just killed me. Like I was like, I felt like I was dying.

Jay Campbell
So you know why that was so so so that's a great transition So so this actually proves how bad if you are how bad alcohol is actually for the human body So like when your body is got massive amounts of FGF 21 Which clearly you did because you're eating apples for three days all of a sudden introducing alcohol, which again metabolically And I don't want to like kind of dork But like you when alcohol comes into the body it is basically converted in this like chain of fatty acids Dehydrogenase ultimately it gets to what is called triglycerol and triglycerol is then converted to triglyceride And so when you drink alcohol in excess You're gonna be soft in places that your body is prone to store fat, right? So for men, it's the belly That's why guys have beer bellies for women.

It's like the hips the glute and hamstring tie in and again This is all regional body fat storage relative to genetics and blood flow And so it's you feel like shit when you have all that FGF 21 and all that insulin to throw in a solvent Into your body it would just literally like it would be like throwing water into your gas tank when your gas when you were like a Ferrari flowing

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So to that point, actually, because I'll let you know my thoughts on alcohol and everything. So I feel like if we look at, I think, well, first of all, I think there's a bit of a problem with the literature on alcohol in general, because it often lumps together alcohol into one category, like alcohol, or we'll call it like all wine, all beer. There's not any nuance of, is this dry farm, low alcohol, pesticide-free organic wine compared to conventional high alcohol, full of colorizers and additives and pesticides and all the things. So I think there's a distinction that could make a difference.

Because I know if I drink certain drinks, I just feel horrible. But if I drink, I'm neurotic with what I drink as far as the wine. I feel like it's additive to my life. And then if we look at the longest lived populations, with the exception of Loma Linda, they all have some amount of alcohol in their diet. And so you could ask the question, well, maybe without that, they would live even longer. Or maybe it's kind of like the, maybe the benefits outweigh any potential negatives of actual alcohol content from the polyphenols, the rest of the drink, the social setting. It's a very, again, nuanced topic.

Jay Campbell
So here's the answer. Here's the answer.

So I wrote about this in my TOT Bible. The human body can handle four ounces of unfermented alcohol per 24 hours. So that means that if you drink four ounces of, you know, call it, you know, wine, even four ounces of like distilled vodka or distilled liquor, you're probably not going to have any kind of like, what do you call it, delay from a standpoint of, you know, your central nervous system is not going to be depressed. But how many people can actually go four ounces and not go beyond that? Very few, if not any, right? Because again, it's like, you know, does all sorts of things to lower inhibition, to do all these things that people enjoy, right? So that's why they keep drinking it. So you can, you know, and to what you were saying about the different forms, I mean, again, it just comes down to the ounces. Because again, at the end of the day, molecular alcohol is alcohol when it's converted. So like, if you want to live the longest and have the least amount of brain decay, you know, degenerate neurodegeneration, depending on what pathways, you should avoid alcohol like the plague because it is zero value. I mean, it really is zero value. But if you want to be that person that says, oh, no, I enjoy a glass of wine with my friends and it's like great for me in social settings, I mean, just keep it below four ounces. You know what I mean? Because that's like what the body can actually process and handle. But I would still say that if you drink four ounces of wine every single day, by the time you're in your 40s, you're fucked.

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, I don't think people because I don't think I agree and I don't think people People don't realize that like so like if you look at like a bottle of wine You could have like a 11 ounce abv wine and you can easily have like a 15 ounce a 15, you know 15 percent Sorry outs 11 percent abv wine and there's also a 15 percent abv wine and people just consider those the same And then a glass of wine is glass of wine. No Because if you have a 15 percent compared to 11 percent like that's a big difference Like

Jay Campbell
Than the amount the best way i'll say it is now and this is going to probably be offensive to some people but if you are Heavily faxed and boosted And you're drinking alcohol on the weekends getting blown up and I mean like you're getting in sloshed You are dramatically shortening your lifespan Because your autoimmunity is already let's just say detuned for lack of a better word and by adding in You're pouring kerosene on the fire. You know what i'm saying? Like that's the best way to say it. So like You know people in their late teens and early 20s and even late 20s and maybe early 30s They're going out every weekend getting wasted You know, can you clean up your act?

Yes But if you're literally in your 40s and you're still doing that and you're heavily vaxen boosted, you're not going to live much longer I mean, I mean melanie I could tell you because I see people's labs We are we have a national crisis. It's not a national crisis. It's a global crisis I mean I am seeing people's inflammatory markers when they send me their labs and these are normally I should say normal otherwise healthy people like, you know, they're not insulin. They don't look fat They're not fat and they're not, you know insulin resistant But their inflammatory markers are literally indicative of a person who has one foot in the grave I mean it is so bad that it blows my head off Like i'm gonna just this is a person who sent me their labs three days ago. It's a woman. She's a nurse So again, the medical system people are the worst because they were forced So you're ready for this? So this is from june 14th 2025 and again, this is a normal if you saw this woman you would be like she's healthy. She takes care of herself She's exercising She got two shots and two boosters again. She's a nurse forced her high sensitivity crp, which is c-reactive protein is 30 0.51 on a range of zero to three 30 her c-reactive protein on a range of zero to three is 28 Her esr her fibrin activity her neutrophil lymphocyte and her platelet lymphocytes are all 40 points to 60 points over the high end of the risk range And this is a normal person who's 42 years old. So what i'm saying is and i'm not trying to scare people But if you're out there and you're vaxxed again and boosted and let's just say two and two And you're sloshing yourself on the weekends. You're not going to live much longer Because your autoimmunity is turned off and again, i'm really sorry if you were forced to do this There are ways to fix yourself. There are people that can do plasmapheresis. You can fly to costa rica Panama mexico there's other places and you can have your blood exchanged, but it costs 75 to a hundred thousand dollars But i'm telling you dude I see this every day if not every other day and i am literally flabbergasted because it drives me I mean it saddens me Like I get sad just telling you right now because I think about these people, you know They were forced to do this, but I mean it's not good, dude

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, I think the binge drinking type situation like going out drinking all like that is not good either like not never good. Wow, so many things.

Okay, one quick question on the the alcohol and the mental or like the brain. It's interesting as well. I've had on the show, the researchers behind the the mind diet, which they did like the longest or the the I guess they've done the most research on diet to prevent cognitive decline. And their protocol literally like you get points for having wine in the diet, which

Jay Campbell
It's like look genetics are everything and and you know going back to the five stages of awakening I mean again This is very important, you know And obviously there's a lot of smart people to listen to your podcast and a lot of people that are very smart in my world too, but Number four in the stages of awakening is the emotional impact of stress on our physiology Do you realize and I mean this for everyone listening? I don't care.

This is not woo We are nothing more than energy we are vibrating atoms and oscillating waves of energy in these physical bodies and These physical bodies get disease or cancer heart disease, whatever you want to call all the aging diseases due to resistance in the energy field So when those researchers come on your show and they talk about people live the longest from drinking wine There's also a reason that they live long and it has nothing to do with physical It's literally because they are meaning the people that live the longest who are drinking the wine are happy whole and complete And what I mean by that is they do not have resistance in their energy field when they drink wine they do it in the spirit of Abundance prosperity generosity gratitude. They're with friends their family. I mean again They're in a place of happiness of productivity of like feeling You know super productive and super You know abundant they're not coming from a place of lack And so that's what we have to understand is that like literally the emotional the psycho emotional Component of our being is what affects us the most and whether or not we get disease or live longest It's more. It's more than anything. I mean again, you know, here's I'm the guy here talking about fruit fasting and peptides and all this stuff And you're all physical implements but at the end of the day If you feel that you are worthy and that you love and trust yourself You can absolutely live into your 120s, you know 115 113 whatever and drink Four to six to eight to ten ounces of wine every day So it's it really you know, we really have to understand that the mental place the state of being this You know of our emotionality. Are we in resistance or are we in flow is ultimately going to determine how long we live?

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I think it's overwhelmingly powerful. And I mean, we see it just scientifically with the placebo effect with pills, you know? So yeah, incredible.

Jay Campbell
Fat people, you know, I'll just say this, fat people don't love and trust themselves. Because if you were not fat, now that doesn't mean that skinny people or healthy, I mean lean people love and trust themselves either. I'm not saying it's all that way, but like to be that level of poor physical health means that you have a psycho-emotional block of resistance somewhere from trauma as a child, a past life, you know, some sort of abusive setting. You were emotionally or physically or verbally abused or something, and you shut down and you stopped caring about what is very important, which again is the stage two, your physical vessel, right? Like you need a healthy physical vessel to enjoy your life because when you're fat, you're in pain. Your default state is suffering. So it's like when you see someone like that, you automatically know that they don't feel truly worthy of being any other way. And so that's their default state, which is suffering and it's horrible, right? Like again, you and I don't understand that, but like it sucks. And so it's like, they're not gonna change until they get to a place. And again, they have to be ready to do this where they feel worthy of changing. It's really that simple.

And that's kind of the way it is in life. And I'm not saying that healthy, lean people don't hate themselves too, because there's plenty of people like that. There's plenty of people in the bodybuilding world that have muscle dysmorphia and body dysmorphia. You know what I mean? But it's like, you cannot change until you feel worthy of change. I cannot tell anybody, you cannot tell anybody anything about all these things that we're talking about and will make sense to them until it makes sense to them. You know, it's the whole like, until a person is sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, they're not gonna change.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's a reason actually, that, because I think people can see these, like, protocols, and they can seem intense, and like, it's a lot of rules, and it's stressful, and it's going to require a lot of change to do it.

And at the same time, I think for a lot of people, having these these rules and boundaries that you just commit to, then that actually frees up a lot of willpower and can change your relationship to the entire diet, fitness experience, because now you just follow the rules. And then the physiological changes happen, you experience a new thing, it kind of can like be a backwards way in for people to, I think, have a new relationship to weight loss, health, training their bodies by having like the plan and the rules to follow.

Jay Campbell
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I agree. Yep. I mean, I don't agree. I know you're right. It's a fact.

Melanie Avalon
So we'll ask a quick question about the fruit fasting. If a person is doing this and not taking the peptides that they needed to take, will they lose muscle?

Jay Campbell
No, no. So that's the craziest part about this. And I've experimented again, not obviously myself, because I am enhanced, but I've had hundreds of people message me on Instagram and TikTok. I mean, not TikTok, Twitter X. It's hard to keep up with the social media these days, who have read my threads and sent me private messages and said, you know, I really doubted this, but I was like, everything else doesn't work for me. Look, I've had so many keto and carnivore people who have switched over to this diet and said, I never thought anything was going to get my scale moving again. I never thought I was going to feel this energized. I cannot believe that I actually stopped eating carnivore and keto.

And again, this is simple. You've already talked about this. You experienced it yourself. When you pigeonhole yourself in a carnivore keto diet for so long, your body's insulin metabolism retards, it slows down, it becomes inefficient. Your A1C level, which is your blood glucose measurement level spikes, it goes higher. You're literally a borderline type two diabetic. And as you said, when you start reintroducing carbs into your life or your diet, you feel like shit. You start holding water, you gain weight, because again, your insulin metabolism is not functioning efficiently. And I would even argue correctly or properly at all. And so there's going to be a delay in your body getting back. And so that's why the fruit fast works so well, because if you do seven to 10 days of it, it'll bring your insulin metabolism back and it'll bring it back way faster than any other way. Because I think a lot of people, when I was one of these people, when I came off the cyclical ketogenic diet of doing it for three years straight, my insulin metabolism was retarded for six months. I mean, I remember I was having narcolepsy. I would eat like a carb meal at one o'clock and I would be wanting to snore at two o'clock. It was horrible. I remember it took me six months. And again, I knew nothing like I know now that was back in my twenties. But now knowing when I know, like I could tell anyone who's a carnivore keto person who's been hardcore and deep into those diets to just do the fruit fast for seven to 10 days and your energy will literally come back. Your insulin will turn back on. Your metabolism will come back on and you will start the plateau that you're on right now because your blood glucose is high and your insulin is not functioning. Your plateau will, you'll blow through your plateau right away. And that's what I'm seeing. So there's, again, there's, there's no reason for anybody who's not on testosterone or not on peptides to not do the fruit fast because again, the FGF21 is not only metabolic enhancing, but it's anabolic and protein sparing.

Melanie Avalon
Another question, and it's related to that because one of my favorite parts of the shreds book was at the end. And it was a very motivating and helpful piece of the book.

And it was talking about how, like, basically, there's always something you can do if you're stuck in a plateau and you go through, like, exercise stuff, diet stuff. So I'm guessing now you would definitely add to that the fruit fast. But the question I have is, what are things, just in general, if people feel like they're stuck in a plateau, so clearly there's this fruit fast option. But in general, what are things people can and can't change to try to break through a plateau?

Jay Campbell
So I just, it's a great question. I literally just answered this on X to somebody like two days ago. So, I mean, it really depends on whether or not a person is using a GLP one peptide or has never used one. So I will just say as like a, a very garden variety template cookie cutter answer, if you've never used a GLP, the greatest plateau breaker ever is red true tide, which is a GLP three peptide and very, very simply, as I said earlier in the show, but you know, it stands good to refresh, you start low and you go slow.

If you're a woman, you use what my wife uses. My wife is obviously a very, very lean, very ripped 53 year old woman, and she uses 0.10 milligrams twice a week, which is literally one thirtieth of a weekly dose that they give in the pharma world. And it still works amazingly well. It eliminates food noise, increases metabolic rate slows, by the way, it's very minimal, but it does enhance or slow gastric motility, which means obviously it suppresses appetite and slows digestion a little bit, but it's very minimal compared to like the GLP ones and the GLP twos, which are again, the first appetite in the manjaros. I mean, uh, uh, we go ease, which are known to cause the side effects and to cause, you know, the issues that people have with digestion, because again, they're not, they're not eating right. They're not doing all the things that we talked about earlier on this podcast, but rather true tide at a micro dose twice a week for three weeks, a month is going to dramatically increase metabolic rate. It's going to dramatically increase nutrient partitioning. It's going to improve insulin sensitivity. It's anabolic as long as again, you're eating enough protein and training. So that would be number one. I think number two, you know, if you've been fasting without food and you're in a massive, you know, you've been saying in a very high caloric deficit of say three or four weeks, and again, you know, let's just use four weeks as kind of the maximum of 30 days to shred protocol. The best thing to do is, is to eat a lot of food. I mean, Mark Bell talks about this all the time.

If you've been, and this applies to keto carnivore 30 days without food fasting, you know, doing the 30 days protocol, when you increase food consumption, and again, primarily knowing what we now know about carbs and fructose, if you just ramjacked five or 600 grams of carbs for two or three days in a row, your body's metabolic rate will go up because something has to burn the carbs. And again, we now know there's, you know, biochemical releases of, you know, through phosphococcal kinase and FGF 21. If you just eat, you know, you talked about the rice diet. If you just eat dry rice, four to 600 grams of dry rice a day for two or three days in a row, and maybe just eat a very super low protein, you know, keep that minimal to none, maybe, maybe some MCT oil or, you know, some, uh, Italian dressing or, you know, olive oil or something like that, even MCT oil, same thing, you know, your, your body's insulin production and insulin or nutrient partitioning and all that is just going to go up.

Jay Campbell
It's going to ramp up. So those would be the two things, you know, that I would recommend.

I mean, obviously I could talk about mitochondrial optimizing peptides that you could add to that. I mean, my favorite, which we're going to make a blend on this now, and I don't want to rabbit hole, but my favorite peptide mix blend, and by the way, this is going to be a massive seller is, uh, any D plus injectable five amino and not see all in a medical grade pen, all blended together. They mix perfectly well. That is instant energy for anyone who is a dumpster fire or a metabolic emergency, insulin resistant, too much weight, no energy, you know, tanked metabolism, injecting about eight to 10 units of that every other day for a week or maybe, you know, maybe four weeks, three weeks or whatever, depending on how bad you are is instant energy. That's instant. Give me exercise, instant. Give me improved metabolic rate, instant, like energy to train or exercise. I mean, it's incredible what that does and no one is selling that as a blend yet, but we will be selling that very soon. So I was kind of like an experiment that my business partner and I have been playing for the last four weeks with it, but that product, that'll be an insane. We're going to actually call it the metabolic blend, I think, but it just massively increases metabolism. So that's, you know, that's, you can explore the mitochondrial peptides too. That would be like option three.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, and again, I will refer listeners to our really epic conversation that was almost entirely on peptides on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Yeah. So friends, go to biolongevitylabs.com use the coupon code Melanie Avalon for 15% off.

Thank you so much, Jay, especially because like we talked about earlier, clearly, these are such powerful compounds that could radically change people's lives, but they need two things. They need one, the right information. So you're providing that. And then two, they need the right substances. So right, I guess those are the two things they need.

Jay Campbell
that's nailing it right on the head. You need the right guidance and instruction, and you need the right products that are pure and efficacious.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Okay, so bio longevity labs calm coupon code Melanie Avalon for 15% off Was there anything else you want to touch on? We covered a lot of ground

Jay Campbell
No, I mean, this was an amazing podcast. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

We did. I don't think, I don't think there's really anything that we didn't cover. I think we nailed it. I think we hit it all.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And friends, just get Jay's books because it's all in there. Are you going to write a sugar fast book? A fruit fast?

Jay Campbell
I probably should. I've written pretty prolifically on X. I've got a couple of really super deep dives, two of them, which I'm going to send to you so you can read them and get the deep dives. But I honestly think, and I'm not joking when I say this, and I think my head would have blown off if I said this two months ago, but I think this is going to revolutionize nutrition.

I think that as more scientists dig into this and start seeing... I mean, again, if you just look at this from a theoretical standpoint and realize that by just eating fruit, and again, it's sugar, because again, at the end of the day, fructose, glucose, sucrose, it all breaks down to the same thing. But if you could increase your metabolism by 20% by just eating fruit and doing it strategically, I mean, dude, what's better than that? I mean, metabolic rate on a ketogenic diet, because again, we wrote the book, Lyle wrote the book, but I helped him write the book back in the 90s. We estimated that the enhanced metabolic rate from a ketogenic diet was 7%. So a carnivore diet is probably 4% to 5%. I think you know this because you've had other smart people on here, but 90% of people who do keto do it wrong because they don't do the right protein and fat percentage. I think it literally is supposed to be 79% to 83% fat and the rest protein. And so most people follow the Atkins style of keto, and they think they can just eat hamburgers all day, and that's not keto. And that's another thing, and we didn't talk about this, but I should say this just to delineate this, but people have high A1C levels when they're doing keto and carnivore because they're eating hamburgers all the time or they're eating raw meat or cooked meat or whatever, animal protein. And they're getting sugar from the protein, which is a very inefficient metabolic conversion called gluconeogenesis, right? So all that over-consumed protein becomes sugar and feeds the brain and also feeds the muscles, but it's very, very inefficient. And eventually, the insulin metabolism or the metabolic response, the glycation pathways from insulin shut down or become diminutized or just inefficient. And that's why people have high A1C levels and again, high blood glucose and become lethargic and have plateaus and can't lose fat because their insulin is not working correctly.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just think there's so much, so much confusion out there. So thank you for what you're doing. This was epic. Can you please, we should just like annually have you back on the shows for more.

Jay Campbell
would love to. I mean, you asked the best question. So anytime you want me to come on, please ask.

And I'll just say for the listening audience, you can find me on social at J Campbell. So it's J, Y, and then Campbell, like the soup spelled out three, three, three. And I'm primarily on Instagram and X. I do have a YouTube channel that is heavily shadow banned because you know, they don't want this information getting out. I think they were trying to block this podcast.

Melanie Avalon
I know, we've been having so many, and you know what's crazy, Jay?

It cut out for me at one point, and I don't think, like, I don't know if you heard, because I came right back, but it was right after you said COVID, and then like cut out.

I was like,

Jay Campbell
Of course, I mean, of course, remember, everything is run by the AI. So when the AI hits or hears a tangent, a term, a word, a phrase, they can absolutely block it out. So it'll be interesting when you run back the recording to see if it was completely moved out. But I mean, that happens all the time.

But also my website, of course, jcamble.com, there's a lot of free information there. We now are over 100 articles that are on page one regarding peptide and bioregulators. So that's also a great place to check out.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put links to everything in the show notes. And again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 448.

Oh, this is so awesome, Jay. Thank you. I'm pumped up. And I'm looking forward to talking to you again in the future with with the new things that you've learned.

Jay Campbell
For sure, Melanie. Anytime you need me, reach out to me, but thank you so much.

And just make sure you email me and I'll get this out to my team when this is posted so we can blast this out everywhere, because this was epic.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect will do. Have a good rest of your day.

Bye Thank you so much for listening to the intermission fasting podcast Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor Relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors show notes and artwork By Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week

Welcome to Episode 443 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 443 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, Win, Wine, Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo Style Meals, Intermittent Doctor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarreConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 443 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barre Conrad. Barre, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey Mel, how's it going? I am good. I'm doing really well. It is a sunny morning here in Melbourne on a Saturday and it's been a packed day. I feel like it's already the middle of the day.

It feels like 3 p.m. for me. I've been up all morning doing some brand work and stuff like that, which means like content creation and things like that because part of my job is is doing that as well. So I've been doing that. But Mel, I went to a musical this week. This week just gone.

Melanie Avalon
I know what you went to. I saw the picture and I'm supposed to go, hopefully in a month. I don't have my tickets yet. You went to Kimberly, right? Kimbo?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. You go into that.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I was excited to talk to you about it. I want to. Didn't it win Best Musical, I think?

Barry Conrad
I think it did, but I have to say this production was so much fun, and it was directed by Mitchell Beattel, who's incredible. He's like an actor-director.

He actually directed the very first musical I did, which is called Violet. And yeah, it's a feel-good show, because it's based on this girl. She kind of has this, for audience, for listeners, that this girl, she has this rare genetic condition similar to sort of progeria, which makes your body age rapidly. So she's like 16 inside, but she looks and lives like a woman in her 60s. She's pretty intense, but it's just fun, and she falls in love, and it's sad as well. There's tears, there's laughing. It was really fun. You'll love it.

Melanie Avalon
That's a real condition, right?

Barry Conrad
It's sort of called, it's formerly Hutchinson-Gilford-Progerio syndrome, so it's a situation.

Melanie Avalon
And when people have that, do they die young as well?

Barry Conrad
Yes, and I don't want to give.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Well, I've, I've, yeah, no, no, no spoilers. Although I listened to the, I listened to it. Yeah, I'm just like thinking about what that would be like. That's wild.

Have we talked about this? Do you ever listen to musicals and you read the plot along so it's kind of like watching it?

Barry Conrad
No, I actually never do that. Do you do that?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. For like all the musicals I do. Like when the Tonys come out, like the top, you know, all the ones that are nominated, I go watch them in my head.

Barry Conrad
So you first listen and read them before you go so that you like know what's coming up.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so here's what you do. This is gonna be a new like hobby for you.

Okay, so you most of them on Wikipedia have the plot breakdown and they include when the when the musical numbers happen. So you so you like read the little bit of the plot and then it'll be like this song, it like says in parentheses, the song. So then you listen to the song, then you read the next little part of the plot, then you listen to the song. So it's like watching it.

Barry Conrad
I think you're, well not I think, I know you're the first person ever that I've met that does this.

Melanie Avalon
Really? Yes. That's so strange.

Barry Conrad
I'm sure there are people that I know that do it, but the first person that's told me that they do that.

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's funny because to me, I thought everybody would do that if they like musicals.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, wow, I didn't know that. Okay, well...

Melanie Avalon
It's really fun.

Barry Conrad
And I actually had no context going into this musical because Melbourne Theatre Company, who's producing Destiny, they are producing this one. That's why we went.

The cast went to it. Oh, cool. Yeah, so I had no idea what it was in for and that's kind of good. Like after a big day of rehearsal, just escape to this like surprise. So I was like really surprised.

Melanie Avalon
I'm trying to think we should switch because I should go to a show where I haven't done this before, which I have done before. But normally I watch it ahead of time, like I said, in my head.

So I should go to a musical blind and you should go to a musical having watched it in your head.

Barry Conrad
You know what, deal, let's do it. And also it kind of tracks that you do that because I know that you don't love surprise, like surprises.

Melanie Avalon
There's, okay, so the reason, well, I know I love, well, I don't like surprises. Okay. Surprises I don't like are people being like, hey, surprise, happy birthday. Here's a whole party and you're not dressed up. Like that's what I don't like.

But surprises if I'm in a safe space of watching a show is totally great. I love that actually.

Barry Conrad
And definitely not a surprise of people turning up to your apartment when you're, you know, just chilling out and, hey, Mel, can we have drinks and food? Like, no.

Melanie Avalon
Nope, nope. So yeah, but you should you should try this the re I started doing it because I wanted to Be what I wanted to see all the musicals, but I can't see all the musicals.

So you have to this is the way you do it and another reason is you know how like songs you like the more the more you hear them and

Barry Conrad
Definitely.

Melanie Avalon
So i get concerned because what if i'm going to a musical and what if it has a song in it that is gonna be my new future favorite song but i haven't heard it yet so the first time i hear it is when watching it so it's not gonna land as emotionally with me so i need to like prep myself and find the songs i really like and then listen to them a lot and then i get to experience it with anticipation of like the song is coming.

Barry Conrad
That's really I love that you're so into it. That's awesome. It's quite like you want it to be an experience for yourself, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. Here, here.

The next one I'm going to though, the next, wait, is that the next one? I'm going to the whiz and I actually have never listened to or seen the whiz. So I will not. And I will just go in.

Barry Conrad
Speaking of the Wiz, did we ever talk about Wicked cause you love, you like Wicked, right?

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes.

Barry Conrad
Did you see the movie? The film? What did you think of the film?

Melanie Avalon
It's like the best thing ever it's i think we have to talk to about it about it because i i dressed up like linda went to the theater.

Barry Conrad
That's right, we did talk about that, because I saw the trailer for the next one coming up. That's out? Well, it comes out like November, which I think could be now, depending on what time this comes out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. This airs October 13th. So I think it'll be in like a month, right? Cause it's, it comes out around Thanksgiving. Yeah. Yeah. We should go.

Barry Conrad
Well, did it actually really imagine that?

Melanie Avalon
being the same.

Barry Conrad
country. That'd be really cool.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's funny about that is it seems so much more approachable that we can do things now and the only, and the criteria is that we're in the same country, like that, that makes you seem so much, it seems so much more possible. Even though you're still really far away. So.

Barry Conrad
not too far away. Also, it's so funny because I was talking to my mom and she goes, it's just so different.

When I used to know that you would just like a hop and a skip across the ditch in Australia because it's so close to New Zealand. But now she's like, you live in New York now and it's just the comfort of not knowing that you're there. Yeah, it's different when you know someone's there, right?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Here's okay.

Here's something to kind of tie everything together what the the beginning and then what we just said now and all the things So i'm reading I just finished a book called 12 questions for love It's by this guy topaz adid adi I just learned how to say his name before I interview him adid adidas adiz is a It's by a guy named topaz He did this really cool film project that won I think like Emmys and went to Sundance Definitely went to Sundance. I won a lot of awards and um, he basically went around for a long time and he would have He would record couples having conversations and they would give them these 12 questions that they formulated that Help, I don't know deepen relationships and all the things spoiler the last question Is it the last question one of the last questions involves Like what would you say like what would you say to somebody? Like what do you really want to say to somebody? Um, the thesis was basically that we wait for really intense moments like When somebody's dying or when we're not going to see them again to say these really profound deep things We want to tell them and he makes the case we should be telling people things All the time and not like wait for really intense moments.

How do you feel about that? Whoa things got really deep

Barry Conrad
Yeah, real deep, real quick. No, I actually, funnily enough, when I was watching Kimberly or Kimbo, that's like a massive part of, you know, thematically what it's about. So it definitely, I agree, you know, like, why wait till if you know you have a time to, well, to be, to be fair, we all are, which sounds morbid, we're all dying every second, right?

Like, you know, like, it's, it's fine. So why? Just because we don't know the time, why do we wait? Like, why do we do that? I try to, really tell people how I feel. Maybe I don't always succeed, but I definitely try to live in the moment and try to, you know, compliment people or tell them how much they mean to me and things like that. I think why withhold that? I really think it's important. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree. I feel like I try to do that too. My question for him that I want to ask, and I have a lot of questions for him, and I'm going to be really, the whole book is about how we ask the wrong questions. So I'm going to be very self-aware of am I asking the right questions in this interview?

But in any case, it's like how big of declarations are these? And can you do those too much? You know, like, I don't know, I wonder if there's a difference between telling people how you feel and gratitude and things like that, versus these really intense things that we say for like people's deathbeds and when they're leaving and things like that. Like, can you say those too much though? Like maybe, you know, I want to know, I just want to think about it.

Barry Conrad
I do think that it's about reading the room and knowing the relationship you have with someone. If you're close enough to someone, if you count them like a real friend, which typically for me, I only like to have real friends. I mean, obviously there's acquaintances, but if someone's a friend, I'm not going to withhold. I think you're awesome.

You really bring a lot of meaning to my life. I love hanging out with you. We have such a good time. Things like that. I mean, I don't know how much more grand it gets unless you're in love with someone or someone professes their love for you or something like that, but I think there's nothing wrong with just read the room and tell people how you feel based on the temperature of your relationship and the depth of your relationship.

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I think we should have another podcast where we talk about where we do these sorts of topics.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think I think as well because it's so funny because when I left Australia, certain people, even just friends that maybe aren't as verbose or descriptive with your language, they really like confessed all these things to me about how they feel. I'm like, oh, thanks so much.

Not that it's insulting that they waited that long. It's just like, oh, I didn't realize that. Thank you. It really means a lot. Why do people do that?

Melanie Avalon
Why do people do it right before they leave? Or why do people not tell people?

Barry Conrad
You know, a lot of people do it right before you leave it.

Is it because you think it's like a sense of like, uh, finality, like you won't see them again or it's, it's so sad in a way, bittersweet.

It's nice and sad, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think so. I think it relates to what your mom was feeling where, you know, I think we take things for granted when they're right there, but when they're not going to be right there anymore, then we have all these realizations of how much it means to us.

Barry Conrad
Do you say things to, do you often tell people, quote unquote, deep things also like, what does deep mean? That's so interesting. We need.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I feel like like you I mean I feel like I tell people I mean a lot I mean I really value you I love our friendship and our hosting

Barry Conrad
Listeners, I will always say this about Melanie Avalon. She is so generous, not just as a person, but with her words, with her accent. She's just very thoughtful and it's not just because we're co-hosts. She genuinely is a great friend and just very, very, very, just a beautiful spirit.

And I think there's, you know, that's the kind of friends that you want in your life. People that are genuine, not just lip service or just like it's contextual or situational, you know? So, value too, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
I echo all of that back to you. That's something that I just have thought is so amazing about you for so long.

Yeah, how genuine you are and kind and real and you show up and committed and just a good human being. So, yes.

Barry Conrad
Love all around!

Melanie Avalon
Love all around. I know. Well, that was a deep opening to the show.

Barry Conrad
That's a deeper one, but a good one. And also this is, you know, hopefully this like emboldens you to do this. Tell someone today how you feel about them in a good way.

Melanie Avalon
I think I should start a new habit. How do you feel about this? What about every day? We just tell a random friend, not like a random stranger, but...

Barry Conrad
the store at Whole Foods, hey.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, think about it because they say that, okay, here's my thing. They say that a person can maintain what, around like 300 relationships at any one time. That's almost a year's worth of, although that might include people you don't want to reach out to.

But my point is once a day, you could reach out to somebody and just tell them how much they mean to you. If it wouldn't freak them out.

Barry Conrad
I think that's a great idea and that, you know, it's a good reminder. I want to do that. I'm going to do that today after we finish.

Awesome. I didn't ask you how you were, by the way. I'm great. Okay, good.

Melanie Avalon
I can catch you up more next week if you like. There's some things. Sounds good. Should we jump into some fasting related things?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump right in.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Okay, do you have a study to start us off with?

Barry Conrad
So I have a study this week and it's called the effectiveness of self-directed meal replacement assisted intermittent fasting in adults.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's a cool title.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it was carried out at the evidence-based medicine center, Department of Preventative Healthcare and Department of Clinical Nutrition in China, and their eight-week trial was published in the BMC Complementary Medicine and Therapies in 2025, so pretty recent. And the situation is that they recruited 126 adults, average age 35 and about three-quarters woman, all carrying a BMI of around 26.6 kgs per meter squared. So everyone had a stable weight history and signed up wanting a sustainable way to shed kilos, which a lot of people come to intermittent fasting for.

So the researchers split them into two groups. One was they followed a balanced calorie-controlled plant every single day, so roughly 1,000 to 1,400 calories of whole grains, lean proteins, fruit, and vegetables, and aimed for about 10,000 steps daily. So pretty simple. The other group did the same on most days, but on Tuesdays and Fridays, they swapped breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a powdered shake, totaling around 800 calories. So, you know, mix-up blend situation. On the non-shake days, they returned to the 1,400-calorie target and the 10,000-step encouragement, matching the first group. And the findings, Mel, was after four weeks, the shake and fast crew had lost an average of 5.1 kgs, about 6% of their starting weight, while the straight diet group, just eating whole foods, dropped roughly 2.8 kilograms or about 4%. So that early drop can sort of feel like a win on week one when the scales barely budge. So fast forward to eight weeks, and the shake group averaged about 6.6 kgs, lost around 8%, whereas the diet-only group sat around 4.1 kgs. So it's super interesting, because when the researchers modeled weight loss over time, they found that sticking with the plan week after week was the biggest drive of success. So in other words, whether you're having shakes or real meals, the underlying thing here is consistency was far more important than the specific strategy. The meal replacements did speed up on the early weeks, but steady effort kept both groups moving downward on the scale. So body composition data showed both groups lost fat mass and reduced visceral fat around the waste, which we love. And the shake and fast group saw a slightly greater percentage of fat loss, about 17%, compared to 15.5%, while preserving most of their lean muscle, which I love too. The balance matters because you want to keep strength and energy when you're losing weight, not just hollow out the muscle. And metabolic markers also improved more quickly in the meal replacement group. So fasting blood glucose, total cholesterol, triglycerides, and liver enzymes all trended downward with more magnitude, and both groups experienced healthier readings by week eight. So what does this mean for our listener's mouth, for example? If you're keen for an early win, maybe you've hit a plateau, or maybe you want to get a bit more momentum in that first month, maybe pairing fasting with some high protein balance shake could take decision fatigue out of some of your meals.

Barry Conrad
On the other hand, if you prefer whole foods and you're confident with that situation and can hit your calorie targets and macros without the shakes, that's still great too. And at the end of the day, whether you're blending a shake or plating up your animal protein, like Mel and I, the real superstar is the consistency.

So just keep showing up, stick into the plans, stay on the course. Mel, what do you think of this study?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so first of all, super cool that you found this. So to clarify, the group that was doing the Tuesday, Friday, quote, fasting, they were given a shake of 800 calories that day on those days?

And so were they, could they have it at any time throughout the day? Like was it a fasting window or was it just that on that day they were given an 800 calorie shake?

Barry Conrad
They didn't specify the time for that. They just said, on Tuesdays and Fridays, they swapped breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a powdered shake.

That sounds like it's just a non-fasting day then because breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, they so they were given the meal replacement shake and each serving was 47 grams of powder. So it was 200 calories ish, 12.3 grams protein, 26.1 grams carbs, 5.2 fat.

Okay, so I guess they were given it. So this is what's so interesting is the word fasting. And we've talked about this before in prior episodes, how people use word fasting to mean all different things. Because it looks like in this study, they were calling it like a five to intermittent fasting thing. And so the fasting days, the two days were really just a really low calorie 800 calorie day with made of shakes. So I okay, what I like about this is I like the some of the takeaways and I don't know if they pointed this out in the study or if this was you concluding this, but I do agree that having especially for people who are not seeing changes and are having a lot of decision fatigue about what to do, doing something like a super buttoned up shake, where it literally just locks you in to that low calorie day. I think that actually is can be really helpful for people, especially if they want to try this where they're having the two days with what doesn't really surprise me that much is that they did like lose more weight and everything because they were having two days where they ate, you know, a lot less calories than than the other group.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely. It's more controlled. I mean, those shakes are very, as you said, buttoned up. There's no guesswork.

So it's very much the same, whereas if they were doing different volume shakes each day, it'd be different again. So it is very controlled in those days, the shake days.

Melanie Avalon
They titled it, you know, self-directed meal replacement assisted intermittent fasting. So I, I wonder like what they were trying to prove, like that, that people do well with meal replacement shakes. You know?

Barry Conrad
I think what we wanted to compare will definitely says how much both of them both groups lost fat mass and visual fat which is really good and only that first week. Was the biggest step for the shake the shakers let's call them the shakers and then after that afterwards it sort of evened out towards the end.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, which I love that point as well, because this is actually a reason because people will say that you shouldn't do like really extreme diets and like short even short term, you know, like these, these fat loss protocols like doing extreme calorie restriction. Whereas I think for a lot of people having an initial win at the beginning can be very motivating.

Like some people need to like to get out of the rut that they're in, they actually need to do something extreme where they see, even if it's like water weight on the scale, where they see something that gives them momentum because inertia is everything. So if you're stuck in the inertia of not being able to make change, it's really hard to commit to a new pattern. And then on the flip side, in support of what you're doing, if you get a bigger whoosh at the beginning of weight loss, by doing something a little bit more quote extreme, that inertia can keep you going to, you know, stay on a new paradigm that continues to help you lose weight, even if it slows down.

Barry Conrad
I agree. And for example, Mel, I'm going to be doing a sort of aggressive cut after this weekend, personally, because by the time this airs, my play would have been done by then, but the character has got to be pretty lean.

He's 24 years old. He's a university student on the run. So I'm going to be doing a pretty aggressive cut after this weekend. I'm enjoying the trinkets this weekend, but after that I'm going to go mainly protein for this coming week only, and then kind of go low carb again after that. So it's going to be a challenging week, but it's just short term to drop that extra body fat and wait for the character.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so a few questions. One, right before you're gonna start it, are you gonna have like an all out feast?

Barry Conrad
Absolutely. So today, actually, after we finish recording, I'm going to today is going to be my feast day.

Melanie Avalon
day.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's a day.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And what are you going to, yeah, what are you going to, are you, are you going to have things like what are you going to have?

Barry Conrad
I'm just going to have whatever I want like I bought I got some pizza bases and I make some pizza maybe I'm going to have some chocolate I'm just going to have what I feel like having and I just have to remind myself that it's not an emergency if I if I forgo the things that I love for a short term. You know for a short time so it's for a reason so I'm I'm excited and also you know I love food so much I love my trinkets so it'll be interesting to see how I go mentally we'll see.

Melanie Avalon
And when you do the, the basically protein only, are you going to be eating like lean, like lean meat? Like what are you going to be? What do you think you're going to be eating?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to have lean meat for sure between five and ten percent, you know, fat, lean meat, chicken, beef, Greek yogurt, I'll do Greek yogurt as well, even though that has some fat in it because it's a lot of protein in their eggs. So I'm really going to, I'm going to go for it.

I haven't done this in a while, so, and also we have, yeah, it's full on days, so wish me luck and I'll keep you posted.

Melanie Avalon
It's kind of, it's so interesting to me because there is the missing of the, as you, you know, you say the trinkets and stuff. And at the same time, I like, I so love all those foods you just mentioned that I get excited at the idea of like just eating tons of lean meat. It sounds good.

So it's like you're like seeing changes, you know, at the same time. Wow. You have to, yeah, keep us updated. I will. Well, awesome. Fine. Any, any, are you going to have any days of protein of these meal replacement shakes?

Barry Conrad
Absolutely not. You know, I think it's great. It's great. If people want to have shakes, I'm all for that. For me, I just prefer to eat. What about email? I just like food, like eating food.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, if I had to choose between, I mean, think about this, like 800 calories of a shake compared to 800 calories of like chicken, I would be so starving with the shake. And the chicken, you can get a lot of chicken for 800 calories, even steak.

Yeah, I liquids don't fill me up. They just, they don't fill me up.

Barry Conrad
They just frustrate me.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, me too. Yeah, they're like the worst teas. I just can't. I cannot.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so the answer is no.

Melanie Avalon
I want to know though, listeners, do some of you guys get full on shakes? Cause I feel like some people, it works for them.

Barry Conrad
And to be clear, we're not slamming or hating on shakes at all. That's great if that works for you. It's just, we just prefer to sit down and feast away on and chew away on food.

Melanie Avalon
I actually even, this is really going down the rabbit hole tangent, so I apologize to listeners, but should I even say this? I have realized that I feel more, okay, because I love, as you know, eating my steak. And I love trying all different types, like grass-fed beef, and I also love bison. I love like Maui Nui, like I love red meats. And I like different cuts, but I really like lean cuts. I've realized that tougher cuts are more satisfying to me, because like a filet mignon, it just melts in your mouth. It feels much more easily digestible. I don't feel like I'm like working through it.

And so I have recently discovered, I think I might have told you about this, I have round steaks, which is a special, it's a certain cut from beef. And it's cut like a steak, it looks like a filet, it's super lean, probably even leaner than a filet, but it's actually really tough, but it's not fatty. So if you cook it right and like mash it with a hammer, you can tenderize it, but then it still requires work to like eat it and digest it. And I find it more satisfying.

Barry Conrad
You were telling me about this!

Melanie Avalon
I think I did, yeah. I don't think I mentioned that it was more satisfying though.

I think I was just trying it for the first time, but I've been I've been doing it now and I've decided it's more satisfying for me than a filet mignon.

Barry Conrad
Do you think it's the action of just chewing like the physicality of it?

Melanie Avalon
I think so. I think like, and this is why I thought about it, because with the shakes, there's something about just, even if it's the same amount of calories, not having to chew it and digest it and it just going straight into your stomach does not give me that full feeling, which actually next week I have a study about this a little bit, so.

Barry Conrad
Really? Oh, can't wait.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So how about you? Do you feel like if, if it's a tougher cut of steak, that it's more satisfying? Oh, I just like, yeah.

Barry Conrad
I like, in general, when I eat, I like to chew and, you know, like work my way through it. Not just, not like have a soup, like there's a time and a place for a soup.

I love soups, but when I'm eating, I want to really eat and just like, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly and I tried for the first time a bison filet mignon the other day and it was the most it was so delicious so tender but it was so tender that I was like I need more I need I gotta chew this more I need more. So listeners takeaways from this is maybe if you want to make your meals more filling I'm not saying to go by eye of round and and tough cuts of steak but favoring whole foods and things you actually chew probably the way to go there.

Okay, shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So the first question we have is Andy on Facebook says, love the podcast and I've listened to every episode. I've been IFing for about one year and it's been a game changer for me. I've never been truly overweight but was very inflamed and just felt sluggish and foggy prior to starting, even with working out. I love the energy and mental clarity from fasting.

I typically do anywhere from 16.8 to 22.2, depending on the day and what social activities I have going on. I have a number of autoimmune issues. So I have fully embraced the quote unquote health plan with a side of weight loss philosophy. I found myself having a glass of wine when I am a few hours into my fast. I only drink dry farm wines as I am obsessed, obsessed in capital letters and don't think I could ever go back to conventional wine. I'm not in denial that this is breaking my fast but I can't help but wonder how much is it really setting me back? Especially if it's low in sugar, is it just setting back the clock while I am metabolizing the alcohol? I also exercise mostly spin class, running and weights. So on that same token, how much does exercise speed up the process of getting into ketosis and obtaining those amazing benefits and all that energy? I can tell the next day after I have the wine that I don't kick into ketosis quite as early as usual but wondering if there's any science behind it. Thanks for all that you are doing to empower people through this way of life. Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome questions Andy. Okay.

So this actually made me think of something to ask you Barry. What was it? Oh my goodness Oh, I was gonna say you doing your Your protein only thing for how long did you say you're gonna be doing that?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to do like initially this week definitely straight the whole week and then the next week super low carb.

Melanie Avalon
So you know what you'll be cutting out? Well... Oh, wait. I don't actually... I don't know what you're about to say.

Barry Conrad
Are you about to say, are you going to cut out wine?

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I was assuming you're keeping that and are you cutting that out.

Barry Conrad
No, definitely not.

Melanie Avalon
we'll talk about that in the question. I was going to say nightshades. Remember how I think last episode or the episode before we were talking about nightshades?

Barry Conrad
Potatoes, yep.

Melanie Avalon
And I was saying like, what would it be like if you didn't have them? I wonder if you would notice anything.

Barry Conrad
Yes, like tomatoes and potatoes and stuff.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so you're gonna be cutting that out. Well, I thought about it because Andy was talking about cutting out, or how, and I don't know if it's a boy or a girl, so they were talking about how they cut out, or sorry, how they experienced reduced inflammation from fasting.

I was just thinking, I wonder if you'll notice anything from cutting out other foods that you might not realize. I'm just curious.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think regardless of whatever other carb, I think me sticking to mainly protein, it's good. I know having done this before, even after the first day, I'm going to drop a whole lot of water away, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I bet. Yeah, definitely. Okay. Well, we should talk about the wine.

So it works well, because Andy was asking about that. First of all, Andy, so happy that I have has been such a game changer for you. And that you're seeing all these, you know, benefits with the brain fog and feeling sluggish and, and the inflammation and the autoimmune conditions and all those things. So yay for that also yay that you love dry farm wines. We obviously love those around there around here they are, they're organic free of pesticides, lower alcohol, low sugar, listeners can get a bottle for a penny at dry farm wines.com slash if podcast. Okay, to answer your question about alcohol and fasting and is it setting you back. So there's a few different things here. Basically, when your body, when your liver is processing alcohol, alcohol in the priority list gets first priority. So when you have different macronutrients in your body, you know, fat, carbs, alcohol, protein, alcohol is what the liver immediately goes to to process. the liver is also responsible for creating ketones. So while it's processing alcohol, it's not going to be creating ketones, which would be from the fastest state. Of course, it wouldn't be doing that anyways in the fed state, but that does stop that process. And then on top of that, this is really interesting, alcohol actually depletes glycogen, liver glycogen, which is the stored form of carbs in the liver. So there's a little bit of an irony here in that, yes, by having the alcohol, that does add, quote, some time because now your body is going to shut off whatever ketone production it was doing. It's going to process the alcohol. It's going to focus on that before really processing your food. So that could elongate the amount of time that you enter the next day. Interestingly enough, the alcohol possibly depleted more liver glycogen than you would have without it. So you might, once you get through that elongated entrance to the fasted state, more quickly enter the fasted state because of the depleted liver glycogen. I'm not going to say it's going to make you enter fasting sooner. I'm just saying it has a really interesting relationship with liver glycogen. So yes, it probably will extend your entry into the fast the next day, which you said you realized because you said that you said you can tell the next day that you don't kick into ketosis quite as early. The reasoning will be for all the things I just discussed. As far as can you have this, how much is it really setting you back? There's so much context here because I think oftentimes people add alcohol or wine or whatever they're drinking to their diet and then they might not make as good food choices along with that. And so the question is, was it the alcohol that was the problem really setting you back or was it the changes in what you were eating with alcohol that was setting you back? If you are, and this is my, just from what I've researched over the years and years and years, studies pretty much, it's interesting because women specifically when they add especially wine to their diet, that's correlated to weight loss.

Melanie Avalon
That could be because women tend to replace what they're eating with what they're drinking rather than making it an add-on. If you are, as far as is it setting you back, I would just look at the literal real results of what you're experiencing. Are you not losing weight like you want to? Do you know as if you look at what you were experiencing and then what do you experience when you add the alcohol and what do you experience when you remove it? I don't think it automatically sets you back massively.

There's also, if you're drinking dry from wines, you're drinking really polyphenol rich wine and quite a few compounds in wine have actually been linked to fat loss and burning fat. There's a compound in wine called PCA-tanol for example, it's a polyphenol and it's been shown, this is in rat studies, but it's been shown to actually inhibit the formation of new fat cells. There are other polyphenols in wine which may be contributing to a beneficial inflammatory state and a fat burning state. And then on top of that, alcohol itself may have a thermogenic effect and actually make you burn a little bit more calories. So I said a lot there, but basically you really just have to see what you're experiencing and is it something that you want to tweak and see how it affects you? I know for me, I can and I could historically lose weight. I have lost weight, a lot of weight historically and I was drinking all during that. I didn't cut out wine. That was not something I ever really cut out to lose weight. I focused more on the food choices and making healthy food choices and doing the fasting. That's because that's what works for me and that's what I like. So you have to find what works for you and what you like. Before we get into the second one, Barry, dying to know your thoughts. Also, you can elaborate on why or why not you would cut out wine while you're doing a cut.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's so interesting. And this is a great question, Andy. Back in the day when I was really into the bodybuilding side of things, like just the not doing bodybuilding, but just like the techniques and getting ready for shoots and stuff like that. I know that drinking red wine was this hack that people would talk about to dehydrate you before shoots and things like that. So I don't do that anymore. Or I don't really know if that's even works that well. But I mean, I've never really, the only time I cut out wine is when I'm preparing for a test, like blood test or stuff or something like that, or something medical. But other than that, I drink pretty regularly. If I have something on the next morning, early, I typically won't maybe drink too late. I do definitely agree with you, Andy, that I feel that I enter ketosis later in the next day, for sure. Like today, for example, I feel like I'm not quite kicking. I don't feel the same because I drank last night quite late. So I agree there. But I'm not going to cut out wine completely. I may limit my wine, be mindful of it rather than drink too much of it. But it's definitely not something I'm willing to give up during this cutting phase.

Melanie Avalon
I think it makes it much more bearable too. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
I can still have my meat and my wine, you know, it's like I still feel like I'm feasting.

Melanie Avalon
It's kind of like honestly like I think the original carnivore diet there was that diet it was like let me find it It was like it was basically you like drank and ate meat

Barry Conrad
That's a thing? Well, that was the origins of it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes.

Barry Conrad
I do think that even now, colloquially, a lot of people still believe, and I talk to so many people about this, and they're like, yeah, I'm trying to cut back wine because I just gained weight, and it's not the wine, it's what you have with the wine, and that's something that people still don't really understand. They think the wine is making them fat.

It's usually what people might eat alongside that. That's what I really think that.

Melanie Avalon
I agree and it's interesting. I actually was recording an episode this week and the topic of alcohol came up and the person said that anybody who tries to defend the health benefits of wine or alcohol is an alcoholic. And I was like, that's a big jump. That's a big thing to say.

And I think it's just such a sensitive topic and people have different relationships with it that it can be hard to look objectively at what actually is doing what in the context of things. Because I think the biggest factor is the food that you're eating. I don't know why I can't find this diet. There was some diet, there was like a book written, I think it was like in the 1800s and they basically, you basically like ate meat and like drank alcohol. And that was like the weight loss diet.

Barry Conrad
I'll be doing the diet mel i'll be doing i'll be full.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I did that basically for quite a while, a while ago. Andy also wanted to know, with exercise, spin class, running weights, how much does exercise quote speed up the process of getting into ketosis? That one I can much more confidently answer, which is yes. So exercise is definitely going to help you get into ketosis faster.

It is true that if you're doing really, really high intensity exercise that actually is, it's fueled more by carbohydrates. It's a different energy system in the body, and it actually can turn off that burning. So that's something to keep in mind. So if you really want to expedite the process into the facet state, and you probably don't want to be doing a lot of high intensity exercise only, you would want to do something like high intensity interval training, where you're doing short bursts of high intensity exercise, because that's going to help deplete that glycogen pretty quickly. But it's not going to turn off your fat burning system, if that makes sense. But doing moderate exercise, definitely doing things like weights, all of this movement is definitely going to help you get into the whole state faster. You're going to burn through glycogen faster with cardio. With strength training, you're going to increase your insulin sensitivity. It's also going to help promote your muscle while fasting. So that's good. That's going to help just everything in general. So yes, yay, team exercise. I just wouldn't do only high intensity cardio only. I would do moderate, low and a blend with strength training. How about you, Barry?

Barry Conrad
I 100% agree with this and Melanie actually speaking on that at the moment I don't know if you've seen but on instagram and tiktok there's this trend of if it's a trend but. A lot of these pts are saying what people think burns fat and they'll split the screen and on the one side of the screen is people sprinting. And running for miles and miles and miles and the other side of the screen is people walking on an incline. Just walking and they say the walking burns more fat rather than just like high intensity.

You know what I mean so it's really interesting that that that's this new thing right now so that speaks to what you're saying about if you're just doing a high intensity all the time it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to. You know go into katosas quickly.

Melanie Avalon
And not only does it, and I'm glad that social media is catching up to this idea, but not only does it not burn fat, it actually turns off that system. It kind of locks you into a glycolytic state where you are preferring to burn carbs rather than fat.

So doing that lower exercise or lower intensity exercise like zone two is definitely the way to go to burn fat. With the exception, like I said, that high intensity interval training, those short bursts, you're actually going to get max benefit there without the problems of locking you into that state and turning off that burning.

Barry Conrad
Melanie, I think it's also, I really believe it also ties back into the whole paradigm or thought that people think, you know, the more effort you put in, the more calories you're burning because it's calories in, calories out, it doesn't work like that. It's not just calories.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And it doesn't have to be that hard.

If you're smart and you know how to hack your biology with things like fasting, like timing of food, the food choices you make, the type of exercise you do, you don't actually have to suffer that much to move toward... You don't even have to suffer, I don't think, if you do it right to move towards, say, the body composition you want. And then I was gonna make a joke, I was gonna say, and throw in like a GLP1 agonist and now you're off to the races.

Barry Conrad
I do think even Andy, for me, I do 35 minutes of weight training three times a week, and then I do the treadmill on an incline for maybe 30 to 35 minutes, not fast, just walking. And that's it.

I'm not out there trying to die and sprint my brain off. You know, I do hill sprints, like short bursts, but I don't run for miles and miles and miles. I just don't. And you look...

Melanie Avalon
amazing!

Barry Conrad
Well, that's very kind. Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
I can never say the phrase. What is it? You walk, you walk the walk, you don't just talk the talk. I try. All right. Well, speaking of, shall we break our proverbial fast? Let's do it.

Barry Conrad
I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon
I'm excited because last time I was bringing the restaurant, I couldn't find the menu because it wasn't up yet and I now have it. So let me get it.

Barry Conrad
I'm excited for this.

Melanie Avalon
I just realized it's a chain, but it's like fancy chain. Have you been to a bourbon stake before?

They're in Charlotte, Delray, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Nashville, New York, Orange County, Scottsdale, DC, and then their new location, Orlando.

Barry Conrad
I have not yet, but I do know of, I have seen this place online, not, not the specific one like menu, but I do know of it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I was going to do the new one because one of my favorite restaurants at Disney World used to be Shula's, also a chain, like a nice fine dining steakhouse at the Swan and Dolphin. It's at the Dolphin Hotel, and now it got replaced with Bourbon Steak, which is run by Chef Michael Mina. He has a lot of awards. I think he has Michelin stars, I believe.

Should we do the one in Orlando, or should we do the one in New York, because you could actually go?

Barry Conrad
I think you should choose the one that you want to go to.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder if it's the same menu.

Barry Conrad
Because which one's the newer one? Because the one if the newer one is a bit more festive and has new additions, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Just open so we can do that. That's the one in Disney World.

Barry Conrad
which is very Melanie coded, there we go.

Melanie Avalon
why I picked it. Like I said, it's replacing.

And this is really cool. So this speaks to a restaurant that clearly had, I think, a good environment because I read that the previous staff that was at Shula's, they all stayed. And they're the staff at this new restaurant. Isn't that cool?

Barry Conrad
That says a lot about the management of the restaurant.

Melanie Avalon
They said it was 100% retention of the staff.

Barry Conrad
Wow, that's amazing. So I just sent you the Orlando. So I'm looking at the dinner menu right now. It's loading. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I see things that I like already.

Melanie Avalon
too. Okay. Oh my goodness. The first thing on the menu.

Barry Conrad
Exactly. I think you tagged me. There was one of the people on Melanie's Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon
I did, yes.

Barry Conrad
Was talking about cuz i think your question on is like what's your favorite meal something like that and they said raw oysters and other things and Melanie was like. What's good about that i think she tagged me and i said like it's the best thing what's not to love about something like that it's like yes someone backs me up finally.

Melanie Avalon
blows my mind, blows my mind. So well, here we are.

So bourbon steak, and let me just read about it really quickly. It's an ode to the traditional steakhouse, celebrates the details that make meals memorable from perfect seers, tableside, old fashioned, to shared sides, milestone moments. Again, it's that acclaimed chef. And yeah, and the new one is at the Dolphin at Disney World. So to start things off, and apparently, because I've been reading reviews of the one at Disney World, apparently instead of bread service berry, they bring out three different french fries and three different sauces.

Barry Conrad
Let's go. That sounds awesome. I love that idea.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'll hear I can tell you exactly what they bring up because I have the article. It was, so they bring out a medley of truffle aioli fries with a truffle aioli, regular herb fries with regular ketchup and then paprika fries with housemade bourbon barbecue sauce.

Barry Conrad
Oh man, that sounds amazing. I want that right now. I know. And you can have them all. That's such a good idea. Have you ever heard of a restaurant bringing out fries instead of bread service?

Melanie Avalon
No, but this actually reminds me of a restaurant I'm going to do in the future that relates to this. That's in LA. I'm going to make a note. Maybe I'll do that next time.

Okay. What would you like to start?

Barry Conrad
I'm definitely gonna go for the shellfish platter, which has oysters on the half shell, chef's ceviche, half main lobster, shrimp cocktail trio of sauces. We have to do caviar as well, right? Gotta do it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, definitely. And I want the Oh, they have king crab. I think I like the shellfish potter too, but just the lobster and the shrimp.

Barry Conrad
I can have the rest.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. With a trio of sauces. And you can have all the oysters.

Barry Conrad
There's also the cells and appetizers, so that's like a different compartment in my stomach, so we need to go to the cells and appetizers for the second part of the beginning situation.

Melanie Avalon
What are you going to get from this?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to forgo the salad because I feel like I want the room for the fries. I'm going to do the bacon wrapped scallops with Bing cherry turnip Marcona almond Madera and illusion.

I've never heard of a bacon wrapped scallop before, have you? Wait, really? No, just like scallops.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's very common here.

Barry Conrad
Oh, is that an Americanism?

Melanie Avalon
I guess so. This is so interesting.

It's so interesting things I wouldn't... I don't know if it's American, but I guess it's not Australian. Yeah, that's very much a thing here. It's so good too. And it's perfect as an appetizer because I eat a lot of scallops, so I don't like to get it as an entree. But in an appetizer version with bacon, yes.

Barry Conrad
But I'm trying to picture milk is because scallops are quite tender. So the bacon would need to like tenderly be wrapped around. Like, how does it work? How does it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, they just do it. Yeah, they just do it.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what are you going to have? What looks good to you?

Melanie Avalon
I also want the bacon wrap scallops. So maybe, maybe we can share or get, wait, what's the other one?

Oh, that's truffle. Yeah. Or maybe the tuna tartare, but I, yeah, maybe the tuna tartare. I just get nervous about the mercury, but, and then for the actual meal,

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, this looks amazing. Oh, wow. I'm looking, uh, I'm going to have to go with, uh, the strip, the a five strip line specialty cut from Japan.

Melanie Avalon
You know, that's not a lot of meat. It says it's four ounces.

Barry Conrad
So if I, oh yeah, it's not going to be that big. I'd like to get like a side of that.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, I think the, nevermind. I think the price is per four ounces. Maybe it's I'm unclear available in four ounce increments. I don't know.

Maybe that means they, they charge that for every four ounces. That's an expensive state.

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to scrap that one rewind. I'm going to go, I'm going to do a, the wag you SRF rib cap.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Do you like do you like fattier? Have you have wagyu?

Barry Conrad
Is this why do you think that's more fatty?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's it's like really fatty. It's that that it's it's like actually it's not as much saturated fat, but the wagyu Stakes are really they're like raised to be really really fatty

Barry Conrad
Your reaction is really fun. It's just like hmm. You like

Melanie Avalon
Well, I just don't I don't I always feel like you don't like fatty as much but I feel like

Barry Conrad
Which one of those do you think would be like the biggest and the smallest.

Melanie Avalon
probably the porterhouse, which would be a strip and a filet. Yeah, the porterhouse, because you would get a strip and a filet.

Barry Conrad
I'll do that one.

Melanie Avalon
perfect. And then I think I, I love a good center cut filet mignon, not cooked, preferably blue. And I'm trying to think if I would, because I'm probably still going to be hungry. I think I would get, yeah, I think I would get the, the center cut filet mignon and then for dessert, I know what I'm going to get to fill me up.

I might add, I might add something to it too. You can add grilled prawns maybe. That's Australian language. Yeah, it actually really is. Yeah, we don't, because that's shrimp, right? Or is it different?

Barry Conrad
Exactly. I would get a bourbon steak sauce over my porterhouse and I don't think I'm going to get any sides because we're getting those fries and by the time we get this main situation, probably would have gone through two or three servings of fries.

Melanie Avalon
that's highly likely. Yeah. How would you get it cooked?

Barry Conrad
Medium rare, not too medium on the rare side.

Melanie Avalon
Sounds good. Okay, should we look at the dessert menu?

Barry Conrad
Let's fast forward. There's a lot. There's other things there, but I feel like I'm happy with my choice.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yeah, the rest is, it's like fish and chicken and then sides, right?

Barry Conrad
Let's do this dessert menu, what do they have?

Melanie Avalon
For dessert, I'm going to have whatever from the appetizer, like the medley that I like the most. So if it was like the shrimp cocktail, if it was the lobster, I'm going to get like another round of that. That's my dessert.

And that comes from the cold part, not the warm kitchen. So they won't hate me as much.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to do there's a couple things that I'm going to do the bourbon steak chocolate bar, which is peanut butter crunch, chewy chocolate brownie, as well as the brûlée Basque cheesecake, which is roasted Harry strawberries, Grand Marnier turbinado crunch that looks pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting that they have a chocolate bar. I don't really normally see that before, you know. Are you gonna get an after-dinner beverage?

Barry Conrad
I sure am. Let's go to, what do we got here? There's dessert wine. Oh, there's a wine list. Let me get a, let's first go to the cocktails. So beverages, hmm. I'm gonna go bourbon steak, old-fashioned. You know, I like to try the specialties of the establishment, so I'll try one of those.

And then I'll also get a, like a good red wine, like a good, cause they're eating a bit of meat there. So maybe some Pinot Noir, the 2022 Bell, glass, Clark telephone, Santa Maria, California, Pinot Noir. What about you, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I would have to look through. So they have a massive by the bottle list. So this would be a situation where I'm doing my whole research and because I am sure on this massive list that they have something I like, which would be, you know, European, probably French, lower alcohol, lower sugar, maybe a cab prong, maybe a pinot. They do actually have a wine by the glass that says it's organic. So that's cool.

It actually says on the menu, they don't normally, you know, say that I feel confident I could find something awesome. And then this would be in the most magical, one of my favorite places in the world, the in the Swan and Dolphin Hotel.

Barry Conrad
So good. How long do you reckon we, Mel, when we finally do eat together, how long do you think we need our reservation to be?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, the thing is, here's the thing. I like eating later. I don't know. We're going to be there a while. I think I feel like we'll be there like four hours.

Barry Conrad
I reckon so. We'll just be eating, drinking, eating, drinking.

Melanie Avalon
at least three will be that table like that table, that annoying table that won't leave.

Barry Conrad
Table twenty two still going can you just please take over I have to go.

Melanie Avalon
I'll be like talking to servers like you guys you guys can close out like we can a different server the closer can take Us now if you need I Won't take it personally. I know the lingo.

I know the lingo You can do your side work and like do we can go ahead and pay so you can do your paperwork and the closer can take us Man awesome awesome. Well, this was super fun. Yay, and it's so fun because it's like a celebratory night where you're gonna eat all the things

Barry Conrad
I know I'm so this is getting me ready for it too I'm getting inspired by all these.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I love it. Awesome, awesome.

Well listeners, friends, thank you so much for all your questions and all the things. These show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 443. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can submit your own questions. You can email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are ifpodcast, I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
That's all the things we just want to say that we really appreciate each and every one of you listening and taking time out of your day to spend with us. So thank you so much and we'll catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
I know, right? We really appreciate you guys telling you now. Awesome. Well, I will talk to you next week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

Welcome to Special Guest Episode 442 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

Dr. Nayan Patel is a sought after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. He has been working with physicians since 1999 to custom develop medication for their clients and design a patient specific drug and nutrition regimen. He has been the pharmacist of choice to celebrities, CEO’s and physicians themselves.

He recently published his first comprehensive book, “The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy.” After more than a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione, Dr. Patel finally shares how powerful and essential glutathione is to the body’s detox system. He speaks about the various benefits it has with slowing the aging process down, and explains how you can increase your levels naturally. Dr. Patel is a firm believer in providing the body with tools it needs to defend itself and promote a healthy lifestyle that fits the pace of the modern world.

Nayan Patel, Pharm.D is globally regarded as the foremost go-to expert on absorbable forms of glutathione, and holds the only patent on transdermal glutathione. In addition to many other topics such as cellular function and hormone replacement, Patel is a highly sought after global authority on the critical role in that glutathione, and all other antioxidants and endogenous molecules play in the body. Along with traveling the world educating practitioners on advanced biochemistry and anti-aging science, Dr. Patel also serves as adjunct faculty at the University Of Southern California School Of Pharmacy where he is also an alumnus.

He is currently a licensed compounding pharmacist that is still involved in designing and compounding drugs and nutrition therapies for his patients that includes athletes, CEO’s, highly stressed actors, physicians themselves and the community where he has practiced for 27 years. Besides being a pharmacist, CEO, and leader, he is a father to his three kids, husband to his supportive wife and a son to his dad who is the inspiration to help heal the world.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 442 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 442 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with such a special guest. Friends, I am so excited about this conversation. So this fabulous guest I have actually had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice now, and I have met him and hung out with him multiple times at multiple conferences. He just happens to be one of my favorite humans in, I mean, this whole sphere. And that is Dr. Nayan Patel. I first met him when I read his book, and it is called The Glutathione Revolution, Fight Disease, Slow Aging, and Increase Energy. And friends, when it comes to our health and wellness, we talk a lot about antioxidants. And you might have heard, I mean, I feel like most people have heard of glutathione, you know, and you might be doing things like getting IVs even, or taking, you know, supplement forms, or, you know, trying to boost your glutathione levels. And there is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to what is the best way to actually support and boost glutathione in your body because it is our master antioxidant. And especially friends, when it comes to things like fasting and diet and fitness, antioxidants are so key to feeling well during everything and not only feeling well, but really optimizing your life. And I now honestly, so I read the book, I learned all about what glutathione actually is, how it functions in the body, how you actually can increase it. And I started using Dr. Patel's transdermal form of glutathione. I use it every single night of my life. And I have now for years, that is a true statement. And on top of that, I also use some of his skincare products, which are incredible for your skin. Prepare to have your mind blown because this is going to be just an epic conversation. So Dr. Patel, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Well, thank you very much for having me here today. I appreciate the introduction.

And I'm glad that your audience is savvy and they're looking to improve their health. And I appreciate this. I can't believe this is a 4 and 20 second episode and your audience is still here. So that means you have some great information. And I'm glad to be here as a messenger for the Health and Wellness Journey.

Melanie Avalon
I think now we've seen each other maybe at maybe three conferences and it's always like super hectic and I feel like we always like squeeze it in like one of us is leaving but it happens every time I do see you and also fight on because you I forget you you taught at USC or went to USC.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So I didn't do my graduate school at USC and I'm still have edging faculty over there as well.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, so I have so many questions for you. It's exciting because I pulled out all my old notes from when you've come on before and I have so many notes here.

So glutathione, a little bit about your personal story. When did you realize that you were going to become the glutathione guy and how do you feel about that?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Boy, you know when you grow up as a kid, no one wants to be a glue with iron guy They want they would be an astronaut. They want to be they want to conquer the world They want to be a doctor They would have been something something very very nice and cool, but not a glue with iron guy for sure And that was not my dream either But you know what I I learned something differently if you keep your arms open and in your heart open The universe will guide you to what's necessary and what's what what people want And I thought I was guided towards working on this molecule by I don't know who but anyways I was guided to to work on to bring this to the To the world and hopefully they can experience the power of what glue time does inside a body Naturally, and so I thought this journey back in the late 90s early 2000 When I was hired to work on actually like liposomal vitamin C And they thought the vitamin C is the next the best antioxidant that ever existed so can we make it better and so I started doing some research and I found out wait a second Glutathone is by far the most powerful antioxidant ever body produces.

Why are we talking about glutathione and The doctor that hired me told me oh, no, that's too hard to work with so let's just stick to vitamin C So I did his project but on the side. I said wait a second Why is this so hard and so that was my first introduction to bring something in the marketplace back in the late 90s early 2000 and The rest as I say is history because all you can do is once your heart gets into something to work on We discovered a stable form of glutathione in seven years.

So by 2007, we already have a stable molecule It was able to get through your skin inside your cell the cell membrane took me another 13 or 14 more years to do research to figure out how much to give you how often to Give you how long can I give it to you for? Am I gonna get results results repeatedly if you take it for five ten years in a row? Is it gonna get better and better every single time? And so I had a lot of questions and not enough answers in the world So I said I'll do my own research and eventually by 2021 We were able to release the product of the to the public in the mid in the middle of the pandemic So that's my story

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

So many things here. So interesting about, you know, them saying glutathione was too difficult to study. And then, you know, you worked for years and years to get this form that we can get into our body. Something I learned in your book, actually, is so glutathione, is it the second most abundant molecule in our body?

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right, next to water. That's crazy. It is, and the thing is, we don't even make water, we drink water.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I mentioned in the introduction, like this word, antioxidants, and you've mentioned vitamin C now, glutathione, for listeners, because I think people hear antioxidants and they think, oh, like good things that, you know, help us.

So how do antioxidants actually function in the body? And in particular, what is the difference between, because you just mentioned we don't, we drink water, we don't, you know, create it. What is the difference between antioxidants that our bodies naturally create versus taking them in through food and supplements and things like that.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely. So that's a great question. I think there's like three or four questions in there, and I'll try to get everything into like one example. So hopefully everybody gets the whole picture of it.

But when you look at antioxidant, there's lots of fruits and vegetables and vitamins in the marketplace today that claims to be an antioxidant. At the end of the day, there are only three ways to reduce oxidation in our body. Now, the reason we need antioxidants is because our body is exposed to oxidation every single second. Because you breathe oxygen, when the oxygen gets inside your body, if it's not getting used up, the excess oxygen is actually producing oxidation to your body. When the oxidation inside your body increases to a point where your body can neutralize those oxidation, it becomes oxidative stress. And that oxidative stress leads to all kinds of diseases.

But that's a stick on the oxidation part. And so what's the big deal about oxidation? I'll give you a simple scenario. If you just take a piece of nail, an iron nail that you get it from your local hardware store, if you put some water droplets on there and put it outside in the sun, within a few days, it will get rusted, right? And once it gets rusted, that's it. And if you don't do anything about it, then eventually the whole thing will just become powder and it's gone, right? And so the whole process is called oxidation. So the oxidation is happening inside our body all the time. Either we breathe oxygen or the oxidative components that are introduced inside our body because of chemical reactions that happens every single second in our body. All those leads to oxidation and will lead to oxidative stress eventually.

So antioxidants is what we need to neutralize those parts. And that's one of the reasons why we body produces so much glutathione because it's the master antioxidant our body produces. And by the way, there's only three or four things our body produces that are considered as an antioxidant. One is glutathione. I'll put them in bucket number one. The bucket number two is the body produces three enzymes, which is catalase is one of them. Superoxide dismutase is SOD. By in short, I believe there's a major skincare company that uses SOD as their flagship product to deliver as an antioxidant. And the third product is glutathione peroxidase enzyme is GPX for short. So these three enzymes are basically are components that helps reduce oxidative stress. And I put them in bucket number two. And the bucket number three is all the antioxidants that you take from outside sources, like vitamin C. Our body does not produce vitamin C. We take it from the fruits and vegetables that we eat. Vitamin E, CoQ10, the juices that you drink and the pills you take. I mean, there's so much things that's out of the bucket number three.

And I'm going to tell you something really, really profound right now. That is bucket number one, which is glutathione. Glutathione by itself is more powerful than bucket number two and three combined.

Dr. Nayan Patel
And so I just want to make people understand that part that if you only have one chance, one chance to get yourself healthier, are you going to put yourself in antioxidants from outside sources like any carrot juice and orange juice and things like that? Or are you going to put all your faith into one molecule which is glutathione?

Which me, personally, of course, is glutathione because it's by far the most strongest one, the most powerful one, the most abundant molecule producing your body that will deal with all these problems for us.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I see friends. This is why I love this conversation because we are actually getting the information on antioxidants. I have so many questions.

I have a very random, just really quick question to ask because I was contemplating this actually last week. When you go and you look at the steaks at the store and they're red and then some are turning brown or you have them, you bring them home and then they turn brown, my understanding is that the steak oxidized. Is that correct?

Is that why it turned brown?

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's exactly right.

Melanie Avalon
So is that, this was the question that I have. If you still eat some of the steak that had turned brown, does that have a problematic ingredient in it for your health since it's oxidized?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So there are a few components in there. You're not eating steak for antioxidants. You're eating steak for amino acids. There's a bunch of protein in there. There's a monosylic topping down into various amino acids. And that's what you're eating the steak for.

The top layer that is getting oxidized, it's the tissue that's getting oxidized. Is it bad for you to eat oxidized food? Kind of. But the thing is, the majority of the food that you're eating on the steak is inside, not the top layer of it. So the grand scheme of the whole thing is not a bad thing. Keep in mind, whenever you cook any meats, any meats, the top layer is going to get oxidized anyways, always. Because it is going to oxidize. So the top layer of all the meats is what we call them is advanced glycation end products, A-G-Es, or in short form, H. And guess what the advanced glycation end products do to you? They make you age faster. So A-G-Es are not good for you. In moderation, their body can deal with it. As long as you have enough glue or thion, they will neutralize those A-G products out of your system and you go back to normal. But eating a lot of those foods is definitely a problem. The number one food has the highest amount of A-G-Es in there, is guess what?

Melanie Avalon
while protein reacted with sugar, right? So, I mean, I don't know. I hope it's not cooked meat.

Dr. Nayan Patel
because it is the very high temperature and very short amount of time. They try to zap every single thing with a very high temperature and that that pizza has the highest amount of AGEs or advanced glycation end products in them.

Now of course if you have home-good pizzas that you do a low temperatures and different story but I'm talking about store-bought pizzas that's the same thing. So going back to your steak if it's out at the top part is brown I'll rather not have that but you know what the grand scheme is not as bad as you think it is.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much. This question has been haunting me. I said last week, that's when I was really pondering it. But honestly, for years, I think it, I think it every time. So thank you.

Little thing about the AGEs. It's just funny to me because I always assumed that it just was a coincidence that AGE, like that advanced glycation in product, that that was the acronym, but they actually purposely, it was purposeful. I think I want to, I've heard something about this. Like they actually called it that in part because it made that acronym. So the science community has their, their, their humor, I guess.

Question about the timeline because you just mentioned how there's these three different groups of antioxidants and, you know, glutathione way surpasses its potential of the second two groups. And that, that third group is the one I think most people think of with antioxidants because they're thinking of fruits and, you know, different foods that have vitamin C and vitamin E and all these antioxidants that we often think of a reason this may be a good thing. And it's going to, that will be answered in part with my question is what is the, the timeline of all of these different antioxidants and the body, the curiousness I have here, especially with the intermittent fasting podcast audience is, you know, when people are doing their fasting, we do a lot of water only fasting here. So it's not like people are going to be drinking fruit juices for antioxidants during their fast. So how does it play out when people are fasting and detoxing and needing these antioxidants and using up antioxidants, where are they coming from?

What's the timeline? So like how, how do we keep glutathione like going during our fast? If we ate antioxidants the night before, are they still around during the fast? How does that all work?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So to produce glutathione, we need three amino acids, glycine, glutamine, and cysteine. So cysteine is one of those amino acids that is not abundantly following most diet. So if you just put in a furious search engine, cysteine-rich foods. And so as long enough cysteine coming from your diet on a daily basis, you could not eat for a whole day, and your body has enough cysteine to keep on producing this glutathione for the rest of the day, not a problem whatsoever.

So we just have to make sure there's enough basic components that it needs to produce its own glutathione as it demands increases. Now when the intermittent fasting people has lived a different story because what they're triggering is autophagy or senescent cells. What's triggering is that, hey, it's trying to get rid of all these dead cells, zombie cells that could be high in inflammation and low in any kind of energy source. So you want to try to get rid of it. And so that's what the IF community was all begun with, is to increase that component. But having to produce glutathione, I mean, you can fast for a couple of days and your body still has the ability to produce its own glutathione on a regular basis as long as there's enough cysteine to die because cysteine stays in the body for a little bit longer time. I can tell you another thing because this was interesting to me when I first started doing my research in glutathione is because they were injecting this glutathione into the blood and initially they got the results. Then there was no results for a while, like for six hours or so, and they said the results again. And it says, why there was a gap? What they found out was when you inject glutathione, the body sees glutathione as a protein, that's like three amino acid chain protein. What does the body do with the protein? It chops it down into various amino acids. It does not absorb any proteins whatsoever or a peptide, whatever. So the body was chopping it down and the chopped up item was, it was chopping it down between five to 20 minutes, something like that, very short on time, it was all gone. The chopped up material was actually cysteine. So cysteine was reabsorbed into the bloodstream. And so they saw three or six hours later, there was a sudden increase of cysteine in the blood and that cysteine was actually being used to make your own glutathione naturally. So what I'm saying is that for your patients, for your community, that is fasting, as long as the diet has some sort of cysteine in there, the body will store it and use it to produce its own glutathione as it needs.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And what I think is such a paradigm shift here for people is again, I think when people think antioxidants, the general bucket, they mostly think fruits and vegetables, like that's what they think they need to get.

And now we're talking about how glutathione is our master source of antioxidants and it's created from protein, not these fruits and vegetables.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right. And the thing is, okay, so we just talked about antioxidant melanin, but I think the audience needs to know that if the body produces so much glutathione, is their job is only to be an antioxidant? That's it? It's just one job, right? If we produce so much of this molecule inside the body, and by the way, the body has a system to recycle, because guess what? If the glutathione neutralizes a free radical, it itself gets oxidized. An oxidized molecule basically becomes trash, right? There's no use for it.

But the body has a system built into it where it recycles this glutathione. It accepts energy from sun and other molecules that you eat, and it becomes reduced again. So again, it becomes an antioxidant. Just to give you an example, I'm going to give you an example. You take vitamin C. Vitamin C is the number one antioxidant sold in the world today, and I'm about to tell you something that is absolutely profound. Vitamin C as a chemical is not an antioxidant. It is actually a pro-oxidant, yes, it's actually a pro-oxidant. But the thing is, at low concentration, vitamin C actually provides the energy to access form of glutathione and revives them back to normal to make it a reduced form of glutathione that can be used as an antioxidant again.

Melanie Avalon
That's mind-blowing. So you're saying the benefits, the quote, antioxidant benefits from vitamin C are actually not that. It's actually helping recycle glutathione.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's exactly right, yeah. And the medical community knows about this thing, but they said, well, that's true, but you know what? It still works. Just because something works does not mean it is going to work every single time.

As a pharmacist, my mind is always working towards, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If you have a problem, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody, if it's the same problem. And if it's not, then it's not the issues with the problem, it's the issues with the product that you're using, why it's not working. And so that was my quest originally to find out. I said, if gluten is so good for you, it should work for everybody. But even the IVs did not work for everybody. Even the other technology products that are out there does not work for everybody. And my question is, why not? Why is not working for you? If your body needs gluten, it should work. And the answer is the body has to make its own glutathione from scratch. Doesn't matter what you do. And if the body doesn't have the ability to produce glutathione, you can take all the building blocks in the world and the body is not able to make glutathione. And if that happens to any one of you, you'll go down really fast. I mean, two to three years tops, you have all kinds of diseases and you have no idea what happened to you. And you get cancer, you get all kinds of things that happen to you. And all of a sudden, oh my God, you're going downhill from here. It happens that fast.

I want to make sure people understand that antioxidants that you take for fruits and vegetables are all actually reviving glutathione as an antioxidant for itself.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. So some questions from there. So you mentioned this recycling power of glutathione, which is awesome.

I also read in your book that can it not be recycled when it's used for detox? Like there was a certain type where it's not recycled.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So that's the second part, right, Melanie? We talked about one job of growth is an antioxidant, and that's a big job. That's a huge job. There's a bigger job than that is to help your body, help your liver detoxify every chemicals and whatever you consume out of your body. And if you do not get the garbage out of your body, within a few days, months, or years, your body will be filled with all those toxic chemicals, and that's usually going to be the end of us as well.

So the two parts that glutathione does for us is as an antioxidant, it recycles itself as a detoxifying agent to help conjugate and get rid of the toxic chemicals outside the body. But when it does that, it uses the whole glutathione molecule once and for all. And so for detoxification purposes, your body has to keep on producing more and more glutathione all the time. Only for antioxidant purposes, the body will recycle the glutathione itself.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. So that in particular, because when people do fasting, which is very, you know, very beneficial for the body and supports health, and you were mentioning autophagy and all these things, it also, you know, upregulates the detoxification process.

So I would imagine supporting your glutathione production while you're fasting would be really, really important. Would that be?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Oh my gosh, this is one thing that we have time and time over. People that do IF intermittent fasting or just fasting is in general, their detoxification activity is skyrocketed when you add growth to the whole regimen.

It is by far the single most important thing that will make a profound impact on your health and wellness.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

Just to clarify, because I realize people might still be wondering about that, the vitamin C being a pro-oxidant thing. And you were mentioning some people, and you just mentioned now with glutathione how people take IVs and things like that, and it may or may not work for people. So with these different exogenous forms of substances, it sounds like with the vitamin C stuff, even though it's a pro-oxidant, do we need to be concerned about that, or does it all work out in the end? And then with the exogenous glutathione, and we'll talk about the form that you've come up with, but that form aside, people taking IVs and pushes and oral supplements, is that just doing nothing? Is it just sitting in the bloodstream? What is it doing?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, so the vitamin C at low concentrations is actually providing the energy to recycle the glutathione. So it's a great product to have it, but in moderation. You don't want to over-consume vitamin C ever.

So if you take like 500 milligrams or 1,000 milligrams per day, it's plenty. It is plenty to recycle your glutathione all the time. Now, of course, if your oxidative stress is pretty high, then you may need a little bit more. But I would say that in that case, just make sure that you have enough glutathione in your body in the first place. So vitamin C will help recycle some of the glutathione. You take more glutathione to increase the concentration of those things. All the other antioxidants, so-called antioxidants in the food sources are just a helper. They're helping inch away the increase of glutathione inside your body. So I would say not to stop it, but do not over-consume any of these products, including glutathione itself, or consume that either. Now, I'll share the story about that one too, but everything in moderation is going to be good for us. Excess, the body does not have anywhere to store it and use up any excess products. So don't give anything excess to the body.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, definitely. And then for the glutathione, the exogenous, and when I say exogenous, I mean forms that you're taking in that you're not creating inside.

Are they doing anything? Are they just sitting in the bloodstream? What happens with that preformed glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So the preformed glutathione is actually in every single cell in your body. So it doesn't matter if it's blood or tissues or any cell, any cell that produces that smartochondria is going to have glutathione in that cell. So you need the glutathione in each and every cell in your body. So it doesn't sit there forever because the glutathione is a very short life also.

It stays in the body for maybe a day or at the most for two, but I don't think it goes anything beyond those two days. So the body has to constantly produce more and more products all the time. So if you fast for seven or 10 days in a row, there might be some issues. But if you're just fasting for half a day or a day at the most, it's not a big deal at all. In fact, it's helping detoxify your body as well. I'm not sure if that's the question we're asking or not.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, or so when people do like a glutathione IV, so that that glutathione, what happens with that glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So that gluten gets broken down into amino acids, cysteine gets reabsorbed, cysteine is later used to produce your own endogenous glutathione inside your body.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, we break it down and reuse it.

Dr. Nayan Patel
And that cysteine will stay in your body for maybe a day or two. So even though you take an IV, the results are not there immediately. Well, the results are there immediately before about five or 10 minutes, and then the results are not there for another six hours. And then once the cysteine kicks in, the body produces more glutathione. Now you have some more results coming in. So you may have results for another day or two at the most.

But the thing is, keep in mind, I don't care what form you take the IVs or the liposomes or the capsules, and the body breaks down and takes the amino acids and produces own glutathione. You are at the mercy of the body's ability to produce glutathione. Now don't get me wrong. You can produce glutathione until the last day. You can make new cells until the last day. Imagine you get a cut when you're 15, and imagine you're getting the same exact cut when you're 60, which is going to heal faster.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, 16.

Dr. Nayan Patel
VF15 and 16, it's going to heal much, much faster than you are at 60, 65. You know why? Because to heal, you need to have all the immune markers, all the nutrients that it needs to heal the body correctly and efficiently. So even though your body can produce glutathione until the last breath, it produces less and less and less as we age. Because I only told you in these three components, glycine, glutamine, cysteine, there's three amino acids. It also needs two enzymes. It needs two molecules of ATP, which is energy. And as you can know, people as they start aging, the energy levels is drilling down anyways, right?

So if there's no ATP energy, but if you have all the enzymes and all the amino acids, your body still cannot produce enough glutathione. And the last thing for electron transfer, you also need NAD. What if your NAD levels are low as you age, which happens all the time? And so even though you may have all the ingredients, but if you do not have the energy source to make your glutathione, your body will not be able to make enough of it. And so if you tell a 50 or 60-year-old person to take glutathione supplementation and they say, well, I get some results, but not like fantastic results, or sometimes they don't even know. They think this is the best that can happen to you. And I said, no, it's not the best that can happen to you. The best is if I get you enough glutathione inside your cells that your body is used to having when you are 10 years old, 15 years old, if I get those levels back to you, that's what your body needs. And eventually, that's what your body is going to be using to heal itself from inside out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So that, yeah, that was going to be one of my questions earlier and you perfectly answered it, which was, I was wondering the role of just taking in the substrates that you need to create glutathione versus actually creating it, like what goes into that.

And it sounds like, you know, like you said, there's all these other things involved in AD and enzymes and the whole process. So, you know, it really requires holistic support to, you know, create this glutathione naturally when it gets harder as we age.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Let me ask you the next question. We want the body to make natural it all the glitter time. We want them to do all that work for us, right?

It's not like we want to take away that job from the body. But at the same time, as we age, if your body cannot produce enough, and if there is a way to give a little bit so that it reduces the workload for your body, that to me is still a good option than to just completely rely on the bodies that we do all the work for us.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, that completely makes sense. And now I understand better what you're saying about the pulse effect when people were taking, or I don't know what they were using in the original studies, but if a person takes an IV, they get this initial boost because it's there, but then they break it down so then you don't see it, and then it rebuilds it up again, which again, if you're, you know, aging and have other taxors and, you know, aren't efficient at producing glutathione, I guess you could take, you know, all this, all these glutathione IVs in the world, and it could be difficult for you to actually reconstitute it into the glutathione that you need.

What did you discover with the form of glutathione that you sell and that you created that I mentioned that I now take every night? So what is happening with that glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
I'm going to ask you another question afterwards too, Melanie, but I'll answer your question first. So when I first created the topical version of this, again, my goal is not to create topical version, it's just that the best scientists in the world are the one that observes things and let it happen the way it comes to you, not trying to change it. And so I was not about to change the form, I was just about to change, I was just about to learn how it works. And it happened to be the topical form was the best way to get the gluten inside your body, inside your cell membrane, inside your cells itself. And so when we discovered that, what we found out was that every single human being, regardless on what genetic makeup they have, were able to absorb the gluten inside your body. And I'll tell you another about the genetic makeup. There's a very small subset of people that we do gene testings today. Now for the last 15 years, we've been able to do gene testing. So we can find out gene mapping studies for people that have gene SNPs that they cannot do certain things in their life. There's few gene SNPs, which are GSTM, GSTP, GGT, these are all different genes required to produce glutathione. And if you're a mutation and your body cannot produce those enzyme that produces glutathione, no products in the world is going to save you. And so that to me was a major, major blow.

Now if you cannot produce glutathione at all, it's an easy one you'll find out very, very soon because you're going to go down really fast. What if people have other gene mutations like MTHFR, the most common gene mutation is MTHFR or COMT, where your body can produce plenty of glutathione, but the workload has increased to double, right? Because now the methylation path is shut down, somebody needs to detoxify your body, so needs for detoxification has gone up skyrocket. Since there's no methyl groups to do that work, the work is now falls on the glutathione to do the additional work. But the body says, oh, I'm already producing maximum amount of glutathione that you need. I cannot produce any more. Now what happens? And so what I discovered is those people had a profound impact on their life immediately after they had the type of glutathione because for the very first time, they had something in the cells ready to use up and help the body detoxify them immediately. And so to me, that was like an aha moment, I said, okay, now I have something to give to everybody. What if the people have, if they're young people and they're producing a glutathione? Well, they don't need my product at that time because the body has enough of it. And it would be in my best interest not to sell them a product because I said, hey, you know what? Your body can make it enough. Just stop drinking alcohol, stop doing crazy things, don't eat junk food, just drink water, and you'll be fine. You'll be literally, you'll be fine. If you want to cheat once in a while, it's not the end of the world, but I'll try not to do that, but it's not end of the world. But if you're an older person, when I say older, I don't mean that old by the way you are.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Anybody over the age of 30 and above, they're not old, but the body is now not able to produce enough glutathione. They will have an impact immediately after using the product because it is actually getting inside your cells, right?

And when it first happened to me in 2007, I got so scared because some of the really sick people had a major detox reaction. Like when that happened, I got scared because, oh, you know what? As a pharmacist, as a medical professional, our first goal is not to do any harm. And so if I had no answers for it, I said, you know what, let me find out. So we stopped the production, we stopped selling the products. We made a prescription item only. We started talking to the doctors. And so for 14 years, all we did was sold via prescriptions and told the doctors to report back to see what kind of problems you're having.

And so we found out, actually, how much to give you, how often to give you, how long can I give it to you for? And the amount we give you, like for IVs, I can give you one grams, two grams, five grams, 10 grams of IV push, and nothing will happen to you. For the topical version, I can only give you 100 milligrams at the most 200 milligrams. And that's it.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. I'm just curious because I do, like I said, I take this every night. How many sprays is that the equivalent of?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Also, four sprays is the typical dose. Four sprays is about 100 milligrams.

This is on the regular version. The plus version, I didn't even release the plus version until 2022 for the very first time. And that's because most of my clients, they get too much money and they go, if less is good, the more is better. I says, no, it's not. And they don't listen to me. So they just said, can you give me more blood? I hate to keep on applying more and more sprays. So that's why we lose the stronger version. But since we're losing the stronger version of the Glothine, we had some more studies done on that as well. And they have some merit to it as well. But overall, I still think that the regular version product is going to be sufficient for almost 90% of the people. No problem.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, okay, and so to clarify, so what you're saying with this form is that it bypasses what we were talking about earlier about needing to break down the glutathione and recreate into glutathione. This actually gets the glutathione directly into the cells to be used.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right. It gets in skin cells and then from there it gets transferred to the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
to that point. And this is something, and I know you've explained this to me before, I just can't wrap my head around this, actually with anything really.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around how whatever the supplement may be, but we'll talk about, you know, oral glutathione in this case, how putting it in one area can have a systemic effect. How does that work?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So yeah, the thing is, if you look at the medical literature, there's multiple ways the signals are transferred from one part of the body to the other part of the body. For example, if you step your foot on a nail, how fast will you take it off? It's really fast, right? But the brain got the message that, oh my God, Melanie just stepped the foot on the nail, and it hurts.

So there's a signaling from the, those are the neurons that send the signals straight to the brain. I said, hey, what do I do? I said, what do you do? Take the foot off, right? And you're done. The same signaling pathway that we have for the neurons, we also have to transport nutrients. And so every cells are closely bound to each other. Like a cell is not by itself, right? So a cell right next to it, there's another cell touching to each other. And this cell is all over the body. That's why if you put something in your tongue, under your tongue, like a sublingual drop, right? Let's say you could, let's say you took a B12 drop sublingually under your tongue. Within seconds, your brain's going to feel it, right? Or if you drink a caffeine, right? If you take a caffeine pill inside your stomach, instantaneously, within minutes, it's going to hit you, it's going to hit in your brain. How do you get transferred to all the systems, right? It's not the blood's going, the blood's not transferring nutrients. It's the cell-to-cell transfers, right? And so there's something called lipid rafts on each cell. On the lipid rafts, there's some ACE receptors. The receptor is basically accepts a nutrient from outside sources. And then once again, inside your cell, all the excess, it keeps on transferring to the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
Pretty magical.

Dr. Nayan Patel
The body is absolutely magical, as I said, our job is not to recreate the body, it's just understand and work with it.

Melanie Avalon
And so does it still, in addition to having this systemic effect, does it also, could you concentrate it on a certain area if needed for something on that area for skin or an injury?

Dr. Nayan Patel
This is so most of people they apply let's say for the joint issues that join directly and the pain goes over the joint right there is a local effect that's the same. Only the excess gets transported to the rest of the body so if you have let's see if you have skin issues and put in your face the facing of the first.

I refuse all use of all the price on the face that you need the rest extra yes transfer out of the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Yeah. Because I've been wondering actually with using the skin products, I'm like, I wonder if any excess glutathione is, if I'm getting any excess, or is it just staying local in my skin?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, you are getting access because the skin product that I have made up is actually a little bit stronger than the regular product. And the reason I make it a little bit stronger is because most of the people that apply the skin care product is applying a very small area, a localized area only.

And so I had to make sure that I get an impact immediately. So I made it a little bit stronger skin care product so they get the localized effect faster.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. You said you had a question for me?

Dr. Nayan Patel
question for you. You said you've been using this product for a while. Can you share me a routine and what makes you use this product every single day?

Melanie Avalon
Sure. Yes. So, and I'll be curious how my routine compares to, you know, what I quote should be doing. I use it though, I use the, the Oro spray and I use it every single night. I use it at night because that's when I'm having my glass of wine and winding down at the end of the day.

And I spray it on my chest actually. I did, I knew it's funny, um, Dr. Patel, because I can remember when we first talked about this, when you first came on the show and I had just started using it, I think I'm pretty sure. Um, and it probably would have been 20 around 2022. Cause I, I think you had out, I think you would just release the extra strength version. In any case, I remember I was communicating to you that it smells soul furry. And, and I was like having to get used to that because it definitely, it definitely has a distinct smell to it. And when I first started using it, I was like, oh, this is an intense smell. I don't even really notice it now. Like I'm so used to it. It really, it doesn't bother me at all is the point. So listeners, my, my point is if the soul fur smell feels like a little bit much to you, just keep going. You won't even, you won't even realize that in the end. And the nice thing is it doesn't, it doesn't linger. It goes away pretty fast. I do a couple of sprays every night and I do it with my wine. And then if I'm, if it's a night when I'm going out and I'm having more than I am, I have it when I, when I'm going to bed and then what's the half-life on it? I might be overdoing this. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I will like spray some more on me.

Dr. Nayan Patel
It's about four to six hours, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that's perfect. So yeah, cuz I'll usually like wake up, you know, like four hours later, and I'll, I'll spray some more. And I find it to be a wonderful tool in my toolkit for those nights out. I love it so much.

But I don't do it during the day. I wonder if I should be

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, thanks for sharing that part. The normal dose is about four sprays twice a day, and if you're going to have a glass of wine, then by the way, each glass of wine will wipe up your gluten levels to zero for the next four hours, and that's unfortunate.

Every drink of alcohol will do the part, so I'm glad that you applied the gluten right away, so that way your wine never fills the wrath of not having any gluten itself. And the reason you're waking at nighttime and applying it again, because your gluten level is not increasing fast enough, but it's an amazing tool to help you increase your deep sleep, especially after alcohol, so your HIV will not drop so low, and hopefully you'll have a restful sleep. The whole idea behind this thing is that it helps you metabolize the alcohol faster, so it does not linger on to give you the sleep disruption that it can normally cause with alcohol. But if you use it twice a day, twice a day is probably the most ideal way of using this product. And the reason is because I'm a creature of habit, right? I only use it once a day for four years, but I tell people to use it twice a day, because the thing is I never form a routine for myself. So about two years ago, I really sat down and wrote down my routine, my morning routine and evening routine, and I taped it in my room mirror, right? It's my morning routine. And then once I put the routine in the place, it took me about six weeks to do it twice a day, every day. And ever since that time, I do it twice a day, every day.

And over the years, over the last two years, I've done multiple tests to find out about my age and my metabolic markers and my organ health. And I can tell you right now, I got no problems, first of all. That's the best part is that my biological age is decreasing finally. I did another test, another one again right now. So I'll get a different number again for the next time I see you. But my overall health and wellness has just gone skyrocketed in the good direction. So all I'm saying is that, yes, it was hard for me to do it twice a day. Once I put the routine in place for the last two years, it has really transformed my whole body in the last two years, more than ever before.

Melanie Avalon
Which testing did you use for the biological age?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So, I'm using a generation lab at this time, so I'm measuring all the organ health, because you're only as good as the weakest organ, right? If one organ is telling me that you are aging 65 years of age, then I don't care if everything else is 20 years of age, my dead organ is 65, I'm 65 right now.

For example, heart. If my heart is old, if the heart gives out, does it matter if your liver is 20 years old? No.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, there's so many out there. So that's why I was really curious.

And that's a good point about looking at the organ specific ones. I love that. I might have to, okay, might have to change my routine, start having mine in the day as well.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Well, twice a day is better. But I think the morning one, I usually do it like half an hour 45 minutes before shower. So that way I wake up, I put my glove on first, do my morning meditations, my stretching. An hour later, I usually go shower. By the time it's done. So it does not see the body for long anyway. So it's okay.

Melanie Avalon
And what about the role? So my favorite of the skincare products right now, cause you have other things coming, is I love the citrine serum so much.

So your high dose, well, is it high dose vitamin C and glutathione? What is in it?

Dr. Nayan Patel
high dose vitamin C. The glutathione is just there to support the vitamin C getting into the complex, but the real work is done by vitamin C itself. Now, as you know, a body doesn't produce vitamin C. It's a pro-oxidant, but it's a very, very low grade pro-oxidant. It's enough to stimulate your cells in your face to have cognitive production, to put defense around it. So it is stimulating your body to do the right things to having cognitive production. So you have normal wrinkles, normal fine lines, things like that. So yeah, the number of products, unfortunately, people like citrine more than the glutathione itself when it comes to the face, but I'm just telling you my thing is G serum is good because yes, the results are not instantaneous, but the thing is once you do get the results, which is sometime during the cup of second, third month, it's a very profound impact in your life as well.

So that's the way I look at it, but your skincare, it's a statin skincare, right? All products are different. If you want to do one product, you submit any serum first, and then you pair that with the moisturizer that goes with that serum, and then the third thing you put the second serum on, and then the fourth thing is put the moisturizing pair that go along with it. All four products have different ingredients inside. All four work synergistically. You can start anywhere, but if you want to start anywhere, start with the serums first and then pair them with pair them with with with its moisturizer.

Melanie Avalon
And I will say to this point, because my audience has heard me talk about the importance of effective and clean and safe skincare for years and years and years. Friends, I have had conversations with Dr. Patel. I trust you so much with your production of these products.

Like we've had offline conversations about just what goes into creating them and sourcing and the materials and I just trust you so much. And I am so grateful for what you're doing with creating these products, because there's a lot of problematic products out there that not only might not be effective to the point that you would think, but also could be problematic with their ingredients and toxins and endocrine disruptors and such. So thank you for creating these products. And I know they're hard for, I know I don't wanna like speak for you, but I know a lot of energy and time and money goes into making these products and they're not easy to make, I don't think.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Thanks for saying that part because that is something that is, if I want to take the product myself, I want to clean product for myself. I don't care about anybody else. For myself, I do care as much as myself. So I want to make sure that anything that I put inside my body is clean.

So like for example, ascorbic acid, vitamin C. Ascorbic acid, again, I don't advertise this anywhere else because it's not my job to do that part. My job is just to create clean products. Ascorbic acid, 100% ascorbic acid in the United States comes from corn, all of them, right? And it's the cheapest way to get your ascorbic acid. It's the cheapest that you can buy. But guess what? All corn in the USA is GMO. It's all modified. And so I said, I cannot, even though it's a very small amount, I don't want to have to put in myself any molecule that is GMO. So guess what? The ascorbic acid that we use is non-corn-based ascorbic acid. Is it cheap? No, it's not cheap. It's not made in the United States. It's made in Europe, right? But guess what? I had to make sure that I get clean products for myself.

Now, this could be a great marketing tool if I want really to market it. But then to do that, I had to put every other product down. And that's not my goal either. My goal is to work with everybody. And I'll just do the right thing for myself. And hey, if the consumer finds out, that's good for them. But if not, I know in the back of my mind that I'm creating good products. That's how it matters.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just, I just love and appreciate this so much. And I remember us talking about that and I was like, wow, this is legit. Like he really, he really goes, you know, all in with this, which I just so appreciate.

Dr. Nayan Patel
One more thing, Melanie, is resveratrol. Resveratrol in the whole world is laced with heavy metals. And the thing is, cosmetic companies that sell the resveratrols, guess what? They're all with heavy metals in there. But the thing is, it doesn't go through your skin, right? So it's OK.

That's what they're telling you. But with my technology, I can push it through there. And if that's true, then I don't want to have resveratrol with heavy metals in there. So I really have to find a source, again, another source, then to clean up my raw materials, completely give me metal free. And if I can get those metals, I can use what cosmetic. Again, this is not something that I like to advertise all the time. But it just tells you what I have to do to make sure that I, myself, get clean products to use on my body.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, it's it's super important to me and I know this audience really appreciates it as well.

So yeah, we are we are team we are team what you're doing will taking or using oral glutathione spray and then also the skincare products will by giving our body this exogenous glutathione what will our body produce less.

Dr. Nayan Patel
The answer is yes. I think it will. I think so. Again, I do not know for certain, but knowing the science, I think it will do that part because the body does not do anything excess.

The body senses that you have something. The body says, okay, I can use energy to do something else. I don't have to produce this part because we have plenty of it, right? And so being that I know that part of the science, I'm assuming the body will not have to produce glutathione. And that was the reason why I found out how much to give you, how often to give you, because I never want to shut down your own production ever, right? But I want to replace a lot of the work by giving you exogenous or outside the body glutathione. If I can do that part and still maintain the body's ability to produce glutathione, then my job is served.

Now, keep in mind, glutathione is not a hormone. It's not like if you take an exogenous glutathione and the body stops producing it, the body will forget to make it. So when you really need it, the body will not know how to make it. The example I'd like to give you is when you're building a house. If you build a house, and if you live in Georgia, you build a brick house. If you're building a brick house, I'm just joking, by the way, I live in California, and there's no brick house because of earthquake.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, whoa, I never, wait, I lived in California for 10 years. I don't think I ever put two and two together there. Oh my goodness, I'm having like a real time epiphany right now.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So let's say you're building a brick house. What's the number one ingredient you need? Bricks. The bricks, because without the bricks, there's nothing that's happening.

And so the body does not take bricks from outside sources, right? If glutathione is the number one ingredient in your body, and if you give glutathione, the body goes, no, no, no, I can't take that. If you give me a brick, I'll break it down, make it into a powder, and then I'll make my own bricks again, and then I'll use it to build a house, right? That's what the body does right now. But let's say you somehow you convince the body to give the brick, okay, so you're done. If that happens, and then you got the brick, and it's already made up and ready to go, now all of a sudden, your body says, okay, if I have the bricks, I don't have to make the bricks, I can use the same energy to do the work because the labor force is still the same. If the labor is still the same, guess what? They can do some other work. And what's the labor force in the body? ATP energy, enzymes, and NAD, and amino acids. The amino acids can be used to make a countess of the peptides and proteins. ATP energy can be used to do other peptides and proteins as well, so does the NAD. So you never lose the ability, but the number one ingredient that your body needs is given to you, so all of a sudden, how much labor force do you need now that you don't have to make the bricks? Much, much less. Much less. And that's the reason why everybody that uses a glutathione for the first time, within two weeks, you have surplus of energy, ATP. Because for the first two weeks, the body goes, oh, I have more energy. Maybe I can do this. Maybe I can do that. I can do this. And after that, I say, yeah, I did everything possible, and I just have to maintain it. So now the extra energy, it shows up in the mitochondria, and I say, now, oh, my God, I got energy. I can do better. I can function better. I can walk. I can run. I have the energy to think better. And so all of a sudden, now, every single organ cell starts getting more and more energy. And over time, over two, three, five, 10 years, every single cell in your body is going to have surplus of energy to work with. And that's my goal, right? Not to take over the body's own pressure of glaucoma is to relieve the body of the number one job it does and allow the body to do the rest of the organs and get them better.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay.

So basically, so while we're supplementing this, our body now has more energy, more time and resources to do other things. And if we stop supplementing, then it will just dedicate time and resources again towards creating it. It's not like it shuts off the glutathione system.

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, it doesn't shut off because the thing is, if you take too much of glutathione, your body will go to a reductive state, which is not a good state. As soon as you do that, the body will have rashes and itching and diarrhea and headaches and things like that.

You know, right away, that something's wrong, right? So you back off anyways. And the dose that we are giving you is not 100% replacement. It's like 90% replacement, maybe less than that. And so that way, you can literally do it twice a day, every day, and never hit 100% from outside sources. You still have to rely on your body's ability to make some. Now, there are people out there that have enzymes, defects, and they cannot make anything. And they need them much higher. And so that's why we created a plus version. And so those plus versions, it's a godsend for them. And so now we have both the regular version for everybody and the plus version for people that have major issues with it.

Melanie Avalon
So listeners, I bet, are super excited to start integrating this into their life. Again, I can't recommend it enough. I use it, well, every single night, and now it looks like I'm going to be using it day and night. We have a 10% discount code for listeners.

So if you go to MelanieAvalon.com slash Auro, that's A-U-R-O. That will redirect to Dr. Patel's website. Use the code MelanieAvalon10, and that will get you 10% off your order. So again, that's MelanieAvalon.com slash Auro, A-U-R-O. Use the code MelanieAvalon10 for 10% off your order. Thank you for that, Dr. Patel. And I really can't recommend this enough. It's a staple, busy staple in my life. And it's funny, so when you, I remember, I remember when I first got the pitch about your book, and I saw the title, and I was really excited because I wanted to learn about Glutathione. And I also saw that you had a company that made Glutathione products, and I was like, oh, is this book just going to be a pitch for his products? And then I read the book, and it just blew me away. I was like, whoa, this guy knows everything I could have ever wanted to know about Glutathione. So thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. Not only are you creating the products that are really changing people's lives, but you're also doing this educational piece, which I just think is so important. Yeah, and you're just such an incredible human being. So if listeners ever go to a conference, because you guys, you're at a lot of conferences, definitely go say hi to Dr. Patel, because he's a, he's a shining figure, you and your wife and the booth and everything. It's just really, really wonderful. I just love it so much.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Oh, thank you so much for that. But again, it's nothing that I'm doing. I have so many angels like yourself that has come into my life and helped me spread this word because we all know, we all know we can only survive if we work together and figure out how to live together, right? If you try to do it by yourself, every single thing, it's not fun, it's not easy, and more than likely you're not going to be able to make it. But if you work together, I think we can all survive and we can all live for a very, very long time.

We've been very healthy. So I appreciate you having me here today and passing this message around. I know there's a part of this about intermittent fasting, so I just want a last foot for thought for people that are doing IF or fastings in general. It's a really, really good thing for a lot of people, not necessarily good for everybody, but it's absolutely an amazing thing for a lot of people. I have done myself intermittent fastings for a very long period of time, and I still do it on a regular basis as well, except for once in a while I may cheat on a Saturday or Sunday with my kids. But other than that, I do practice intermittent fastings all the time.

And with the help of glutathione, my inflammation markers have completely gone down. And so I just want to make sure that people, when you do these kind of things, I want to help people for this community because their goal is to get rid of all these dead cells, the zombie cells, or things like that, and those are mainly for inflammations. And once you get rid of those things, your inflammation will come down. Glutathione is absolutely going to be helping you in this wellness journey.

So please make it part of your routine and please support Melanie for what an incredible job she is doing to spread this word. So thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I just think this is one of such a key important thing, especially for people with a fasting lifestyle.

We didn't even touch on this, but in your book, you talk about its role in fat burning and just all the things. What's next for you right now? Anything?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely. We've been studying for the last few years, another peptide molecule. It's a 3-aminosuccine peptide, GHK. It's called the beauty peptide. The reason is because it is a signaling molecule for your skin cells to do the things to get your skin back to normal or younger. And so with our technology, we will be able to do this GHK copper. We just did a human trial for 30-patient trials and about from patients, for people from 33 years of age to about 70 years of age, something like that. And the results are absolutely mind-blowing.

So I want to make sure that people have access to it. So I am going to fast-track this product, and I'm going to be able to make this product available in the third quarter, sometime in the middle of the third quarter. And so I know this is October, but it's going to be available to everybody really, really, really soon right now. So please watch out for that one. As soon as it comes in, I'm hoping that everybody gets to try it for 30 days and see the results that we are seeing in the clinical trials over here. It's just crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, so a few quick points about it. One, when I saw you at the conference, you had samples of it and I am so excited and it's such a pretty blue color. It's so pretty.

Listeners, stay tuned for episode 448. I'm having Jay Campbell on for that episode and he's like the peptide guy. And I don't think we actually talked about it in that conversation, but in conversations I've had with him and in his book, he's talked about this peptide, this copper peptide and how just mind-blowingly incredible it is for the skin in particular. Because he talks a lot about how most peptides with the skin don't actually do anything or certain forms don't work, but he talks about how this copper peptide is really, really incredible. So I'm excited. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait to start trying it and using it. And that's incredible about the studies. Congratulations, by the way. I know that's a lot to do those studies.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely.

I think, see Melanie, you go to all the medical conferences so you get a sneak peek when I give to the doctors and so you got early access to it because the doctors had this access for over two years now and they have been raving about this product for a while but the thing is until I see the data coming through it I don't I don't release the products I have to see the data coming in before I release the product to the public and so now the data is in I cannot wait to get this out to the public now.

Melanie Avalon
It's so exciting, I can't wait either. So, okay, fingers crossed.

Hopefully it will be out by the time this airs. If not, stay tuned for it. And I'm assuming it'll be on the website with all the other products.

Dr. Nayan Patel
It will be there. Yes, it will be there.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. So again, listeners, friends, go to melonyavlon.com slash auro use the coupon code Melanie Avalon 10 you'll get 10% off site wide there.

That's where you can get that transdermal spray that I love the skincare products, the citrine and then hopefully soon the copper serums the copper peptide. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel. This was so fun. I just I love talking to you. I always just feel so much lighter. You're such an incredible human being and can't wait to see you hopefully soon at another at another conference. Are you going to eudaimonia by chance?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, because that week I'll be in Mexico. Oh, Mexico.

Melanie Avalon
Hopefully see you at another one soon, for sure.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Yes, for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, have a beautiful rest of your day and I will talk to you soon.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Thank you so much for having me. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Welcome to Episode 425 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Intermittent Fasting: Does It Affect Sports Performance? A Systematic Review⁠

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 425 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 425 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey Mel hey everyone I'm doing really good it's a jam packed Wednesday for me here in Australia and it's all happening that's one of those days in a good way how about you.

Melanie Avalon
Same, and I'm just reflecting on how when Barry Conrad says jam-packed, like the stuff you go to and do, you set the bar high for doing really cool things, like events and stuff.

Barry Conrad
You do too though, so what do you mean? You do amazing stuff.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I kind of exist though within a circle of like I go to shows at this theater or this theater like it's a little bit limited. You like go to like all these crazy events and like red carpets.

I mean it's it's very cool. It's very cool.

Barry Conrad
Thanks. Well, tonight, speaking of red carpets, I'm going to the Rolling Stone Australia Awards. Mic drop.

Mic drop. But it's going to be pretty lit. It's going to be like the shot glass you bought me.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, I think I was aware. Well, I guess I knew that Rolling Stones was very international.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so there's obviously in America, Australia, and it's going to be like star studded night, like lots of amazing Australian talent, lots of categories, red carpet, lots of good, you know, drinks, connections, people, it'd be fun. It'd be good.

Melanie Avalon
Super exciting. Can't wait to see all the pictures.

Barry Conrad
What about you? How's your week been? How's your day been? How's everything in your world?

Melanie Avalon
The world is good. I had a very good meeting today. We wrapped up the financial model for the dating app I am working on. Whoa. We've talked about that, right?

Barry Conrad
You mentioned to me ages ago but now you bring it up again I'm like. Almost my mind that you were doing that I can't melody and I can't keep up with all of your projects so tell me again about the stating out.

Melanie Avalon
been working on it a long time. I don't know. I think I've mentioned it on the show. So we're aiming to have it come out hopefully January 2026. Fingers crossed we shall see.

But basically it is a dating app which allows you to filter and sort by and connect depending on your dietary and drink preferences. So it's going to be like any other dating app, the big mainstream dating apps, you know, hinge, bumble, the league, et cetera. And you will be able to search by diet. So.

Barry Conrad
That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
So people who are like paleo, or keto, or vegan, or carnivore, pescatarian, whatever you are, gluten-free, organic, there's a filter for that. And then also on the drink side of things, we're going to do if you're, you know, like a wine lover or there's this whole sober curious movement, you know, if you're not a drinker.

Because so much of dating and relationships involves food and drinks. They did a study where they looked at the top four different first dates and they all involve food or drink, all of them.

Barry Conrad
I'm not surprised that that makes total sense and it's important if you don't if you're not compatible sure you can have your own situation that's totally fine but if it's going to be so different where you can't. I just put so many parameters around what you can do together that can kind of get in the way maybe what do you think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and I also I left out so it's also going to be like food if you're just like a food lover, you know, because that's a whole category people who love food and they're not dietary like restrictions per se. And there's also like a whole world of like junk food lovers, like that's a whole that's a whole community.

Wow. Yeah, I know this because I read the blogs of them. So I guess I'm in the community. I just don't eat any of it. Oh, my goodness. Okay, but to answer your question, great question. Yes. So I think I think people being on the same page about a lot of stuff about food and drink is just so helpful and important for especially like the drinking and then on the food side of things when you're, yeah, choosing restaurants, going out. I mean, I'm all good for people to eat whatever they want to eat. Honestly, like it does not bother me do what you want to do. At the same time, I think if I was ongoing with somebody who was not into any sort of healthy diet, that might be a little bit difficult.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, I'm with you in the sense that people can eat whatever they want around me, but if I had to be around someone that, for example, was an alcoholic that, or someone that really struggled with alcohol, and then I had to sort of watch that, I don't know, it's not a deal breaker at all, but I do think it just makes it easier to be compatible when you like the same things. So some of the same things anyway.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, and it's really interesting, like, on the drink thing, like, there's the whole sober curious movement, like I said, where I feel like a lot of people are into that now.

Oh, and they'll also have a section for like coffee, you know, so if you're like a coffee lover, you're just, oh, now I'm just brainstorming. I could integrate with my coffee company. Oh my goodness. Vertical. No, that wouldn't be vertical integration. That would be the glow. We're still figuring out our marketing strategies and, you know, user acquisition and such, but at some point we will have a landing page where we can get people, people coming, but it's going to be called craving.

Barry Conrad
I love their name. It's genius for what it is, the kind of app it is.

Melanie Avalon
I think we talked about this. I think you should be like the cover model. Oh my goodness. We could do ads. We could do a photo shoot together. That'd be so funny.

Barry Conrad
Even if you wanted to listen as if you tuned in recently when Mel talked about her mirror technique, remember that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, so we will bring the mirror to set and then you can adopt the mirror technique.

Barry Conrad
I somehow think I wouldn't be as good at it as you, because you have a downpact. You like stroll it out.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like you'd be a natural. All you do is you just pose in the mirror.

Barry Conrad
I think I'd be too self-conscious where I think it helps you get shy to see myself like I can't see myself.

Melanie Avalon
That's so funny. It's going to help. That's so interesting. You're so right. So like it would help me and like help me take good photos and it might do the opposite for you.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's the same thing like when I'm doing yeah, I can't watch myself I just have to be in it and just do it and then just let them decide You know

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Listeners, let us know.

Okay. So this is not the selfie situation to clarify for listeners. This is when somebody's taking your photo. Can you just have the photo be taken or would you rather see yourself in a mirror and pose yourself such as I do?

Barry Conrad
You are the very first person, you in Paris, it's the view of the very first example, you in Paris, that I've heard of, who does this. So that's a first.

I'm going to start a trend. Speaking of wine, by the way, going back to what you were saying about sober curious, I'm not sober curious necessarily, but for the past week, I didn't buy any wine to have around the house because I'm in a new apartment right now. And usually I drink on the daily while I'm cooking to break my fast, which listeners might know. But last week I didn't buy any, just to kind of see how I felt. And interestingly enough, I don't know if I feel any different, which is curious, like I'm curious about Melanie, because a lot of people, you know, have dramatic changes like, oh, I've sleep better, or I feel better in the morning, but I actually don't feel a difference. So that's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon
I, you know, I did a similar, well, it was more intense. I told you I didn't drink for a whole year, right?

Barry Conrad
What?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Why? For the same reason that you did last week. I was like, I'm going to do it for a year. I went a year with no caffeine, no alcohol.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow, that's impressive though.

Melanie Avalon
to see if this thing they speak of where they're like, cut out all the stuff, you'll feel amazing. So I was like, I'm going to try that. And I didn't feel any different. I did not feel, I felt less amazing by the end.

And then I got kind of scared because I was like, Oh, I've been going so long without caffeine and alcohol. Like, you know, how do I bring it back now that I've been so long without it? So literally I made my new year's resolution was to start drinking again.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. So when you had that first sip of wine or coffee after that, like what went through your body or your mind? Like, were you waiting for like a reaction? What happened?

Melanie Avalon
So what's interesting for coffee, I never, I didn't bring it back. I didn't bring back it. I did not bring back a ton of it. I brought back, I just have a little bit every morning.

That's like my, my sweet spot for the wine. I don't, you know what? I actually don't remember to answer your question about feeling different or not. I know what the answer is for me, which is that if I'm doing all my stuff, which is the organic wine, you know, lower alcohol, lower sugar, having my z-biotics, probiotic, pre-alcohol drink, doing all my things, I'm just genuinely happier with wine in my life. I think for me, it's like, it's like a ritual. I, you know, it's like a tasting experience. It like brings all good things to my life and my experience. So yes, but if I were drinking like normal stuff, not with all the stuff, I would, I would definitely feel different drinking or not drinking, I think. You, I think you're, I think you're just a very, very good alcohol processor, like genetically. I thought you were going to say.

Barry Conrad
I think you're just a really good alcoholic, I'm not an alcoholic, Melanie, no alcohol, but yeah, I think so too, which is really interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's really interesting that you don't feel any different.

Barry Conrad
Because my father, for example, he really struggled and struggles with alcohol, and it has been really awful. So it's just interesting that genetically I'm able to process it in a way different way. So that's really, I'm fascinated by that.

I want to look more into it. Because I am mindful that I don't want to have any excess, but it doesn't impact my life, my ability to focus, because my ability to work the way I feel, the way I train, and my bloods as well, my blood work. So do I keep down that road, or do I just pull back to prevent future issues?

Melanie Avalon
I'll let you know. Honestly, from all the research I've done, I do think there are health benefits to, especially if it's wine, having daily wine, like longevity wise, heart health wise, all the things. It's similar to you because there is in my family, there are people who struggle with, not my immediate, like my extended family, there are people who struggle with alcohol and it is really interesting how some people really fall into that addiction pattern and others don't. Like for me, I have zero, I don't have, I have zero fear of that happening to me. So yeah, it's really interesting.

And I will say, oh, so I'm gonna share this with listeners. I had always been talking, I've been talking a lot about ion layer and AD patches, which I was wearing those when I would go out and or the next day. It's your body's master metabolic enzyme that is involved in like basically everything that you do when it gets depleted by drinking. So it always really helped me with, especially when I have like a night out with a lot of drinks. Now they have a glutathione patch as well. Oh my goodness, my protocol now, game changer, it is insane. I've realized now when I go out, this is so crazy, now when I go out and I drink much more than I do normally, I actually feel better the next day than most days because I do this protocol and the only time I do the protocol is when I'm going out. So I wear the glutathione patch while going out and then the next day I wear the NAD patch, it's shocking, it's amazing.

Barry Conrad
I can't wait to try all of these things all of these tax I can't when I moved to America can't wait to do it try it all.

Melanie Avalon
It's, I know, we got to get you stocked up on Ion Layer because it's amazing. So listeners, you can go to melonyavalon.com slash Ion Layer, use the code Melanieavalon, that will get you $100 off. So definitely try that.

Should we jump into some things?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump in.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, do you have a study to start us off with?

Barry Conrad
I do have a study to start us off with. And today, I'm bringing a study called intermittent fasting, does it affect sports performance? I was really excited about this, because as you know, I train a lot, love all this. And it was published in the journal nutrients back in February 2024.

And it's sort of like a systematic review led by researchers from the University of Milan in Italy. And it dives into something we get asked about all the time, can you still perform at your best, whether in the gym, on the field, wherever you train, while intermittent fasting. So this wasn't, it wasn't like a small one off study, they sort of they actually pulled together from 25 different studies, the data. So we're talking about like a pretty comprehensive look at how intermittent fasting impacts a whole range of athletic markers. So think strength, endurance, power output, aerobic capacity, even recovery. And here's what I found super interesting. Now, across the board, results showed that intermittent fasting doesn't negatively affect sports performance. And in some cases, it even even enhanced it.

So let's get into that. So one of the most common fasting styles or protocols that came up in this was the 16, eight method. And so for newcomers, anyone listening for the first time where you're new to intermittent fasting, that means 16 hours fasting, eight hours eating, which a lot of you already know. So with athletes who followed this, researchers found no significant decrease in strength or endurance performance. And if anything, a lot of them actually improve their body composition, which really excited me because I was like reading like, please not be bad. And this basically means more lean muscle, less fat, who doesn't want that, not me.

And another big takeaway was how intermittent fasting seemed to improve metabolic efficiency. So what I mean by that for anyone who doesn't know is the body sort of becomes better at using like a fat for energy, especially during the fasting window, which means athletes aren't constantly relying on quick carbs to get through a workout. And over time, like that shift can sort of lead to more more stability in your energy, improved insulin sensitivity, even enhanced recovery markers, which is massive because recovery is so important.

And the only difference though, that I found was where things got more nuanced was during the like the Ramadan style fasting. Side of things. And that means like sort of dry fasting during the day and dry fasting is like no food, no water. That's pretty intense. And in some of the cases, especially with those elite athletes, the performance did dip during that Ramadan style situation. But the study points out that it wasn't necessarily the fasting that caused that issue. It was often like a mix of hydration, sleep, depletion, inconsistent training because of not feeling strong because of the fasting.

So I guess it's the context, you know, so one of the coolest parts of me about this was that certain faster athletes actually improve their short bursts, high intensity performance.

Barry Conrad
So we're talking things like sprints, which I love hill sprints, and I've said that before. So sprints, hit training, jumps, that kind of thing, which actually totally debunks and or challenges the idea that, you know, you have to be quote unquote constantly fed, constantly eating to be explosive or, or powerful. It's just the more we delve into the research, it's just not the case. So of course, like, you still need proper nutrition, you still need recovery, hydration, but fasting when done right, it doesn't have to hold you back.

And this sort of talks about that might even give you that edge. So the researchers at the end, they did say, though, there's a lot more work to be done, especially with the longer term studies and standardized protocols. But the early signs look pretty, pretty promising, especially if you're someone who's fasting on the regular and wondering if you leave in the gains on the table, you're not leaving the gains on the table. So science is showing that we can fast and train and perform and recover like a bus. So Mel, what do you I'd love to hear your thoughts. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon
I love it so much. And you said when you sat down to read it, what did you think it was going to say?

Barry Conrad
I wasn't worried, but there's always something in the back of my mind like I don't want any new research to come out saying fasting is going to inhibit your performance because I'm so active and so I was glad that these are the findings.

Melanie Avalon
No, that's amazing. I love it.

It's so interesting because people just have... I feel like still they're really, really concerned and think that it really will impede performance and it's just not, you know, seemingly what the people's experience shows, what the studies show. I'm glad that you drew attention to the Ramadan thing because, you know, I feel like that's completely different. So like people not drinking water, like just like dry fasting. Yeah, I would not even... I would not even look at that for athletic performance because that's such a huge factor. Like electrolyte balance and hydration is so important. And then like you said, it's also affecting other lifestyle factors as well.

Amazing. 25 studies.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. So I thought it was really comprehensive. And yeah, I do think I agree with what you said as well.

The Ramada, I feel like it's a different category. Do you think like it's not even, it's not really intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon
So, I mean, it is, it is intermittent fasting because I mean, they don't eat during daylight hours, right? So they're getting, I don't, I don't know how long when it's done.

And I don't like, when is it, when is Ramadan?

Barry Conrad
I wanna say, hold on, I don't wanna get this wrong.

Melanie Avalon
February in the U.S. Okay, so like in February, in 2025, it's Friday, February 28th through Saturday, March 29th. Okay.

What I'm trying to envision, what's interesting about it, oh, this is interesting. Oh, I find this interesting. I never thought about this. So, you know, it's a religious event, but the dates are set. So that means depending on where you are, like where you live, it's going to depend on how many daylight hours you have.

Barry Conrad
That is interesting.

Melanie Avalon
So, you know, cause like here in the U S that's a little bit shorter days still. I mean, they're getting days are getting longer, but like for you guys, cause what season is it again now for you?

I know we go through this every time.

Barry Conrad
I want to say it. Okay. It's not, I think it's autumn slash fall. I want to say it's not spring because we talked about this last time. It's like, it's not spring. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
So presumably based on where you are, not even just location because of the season, but also the latitude, like so like how far you are from the equator.

Barry Conrad
Because I know from Melanie, when I used to live in South Africa, there's a lot of Muslim population there. And one of my mom's best friends, one of our best family friends, she married into a Muslim family, and we'd go over during Ramadan so we could eat all the food at night.

But basically, the point is, as soon as the sun went down, that's when they would eat. So there wasn't a set time on the clock. It's just usually somewhere between six and eight, it would be where they can eat and drink.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So like if you lived, for example, at the polls, you would have, you know, that would come, that would drastically affect the daylight hours.

Barry Conrad
Do you think in that case, so like Norway and places like that, would they have to like maybe put a time on it then maybe like

Melanie Avalon
I don't know, like, do they adjust? I don't, I mean, how would they adjust though? Because like, isn't the rules about the light?

Barry Conrad
They'd probably never break their fast data, though. I don't know. Actually, now I want to find out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I looked it up. Ramanan fasting can be adjusted for Muslims living in regions where daylight hours are extremely long or short, such as near the Arctic or Antarctic circles, where the sun may not set or rise for days or even weeks. Islamic scholars and councils have addressed this unique situation with practical solutions. So here are some approaches.

They might follow the nearest moderate location, so like the closest city that has a clear distinction between day and night, or follow Mecca's timetable. Hmm, that makes sense. Or follow a 24-hour clock, like you were saying, using a set number of hours. So interesting. I can't believe I never thought about this before.

Barry Conrad
That actually is interesting. Now we know, so follow near a city or, okay.

Melanie Avalon
But you know what's interesting also? So this is for like the polls.

So, but for people who there is a distinct difference between day and night, but it's like you mentioned, like Norway or something, I feel like in that situation, they're just getting more or less daytime hours, but it wouldn't be so extreme that they might do a different protocol. So basically, I mean, I don't know, but it sounds like maybe, I feel like there would be subtle differences and the length of fast based on where you live.

Barry Conrad
I agree, because if people had for the polls, like you were saying, or like Norway and stuff like that, they would have to, they'd probably be more uniformed with their like structured in their fasting. Like from this time to this time, we'll just do it because it doesn't get dark.

Whereas other people will wait. And it would probably change quite like even in the daily. Yeah, interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Wow. I'm never going to look at Ramadan fasting the same way again. I'm just really surprised that I've never thought about this before, and I've been talking about this for so many years.

Barry Conrad
I do know, based on mates I've had who are Muslim and they do Ramadan, they always have no energy. It's just because you can't drink water, and that's a major thing. I think food is one thing, but being dehydrated and then having to work and things like that, that's pretty intense.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. I know people will do conscious dry fast and they, and it can have other benefits to it in general though. And that's a long time to be doing that. It's like a month.

Barry Conrad
It's a whole lot and also I wonder how people who practice Ramadan fasting, how it affects their bodies over the long term, doing that all the time, you know, because it's like this massive depletion and then like, I'm sure some of them probably, I'm guessing over eat or overdo it when they get back to eating, whereas some probably don't. But I wonder if it has any impact on their long term health, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, it's interesting.

I could see how it could be a good thing or it could be a catalyst for fasting and making good dietary choices. And then I could see how for a lot of people, it might be like, oh, the thing they are required to do one month a year. And then they're just making up for it the rest of the time, which is like 11 months not fasting and one month fasting.

Barry Conrad
Have you ever done, I know you've talked about like, you know, you raised Christian and whatnot, did you ever fast during like for religious reasons in your family? Did they ever get into that?

Melanie Avalon
not fasting. So it's interesting. So I have two memories associated. One is Lent. So that's kind of like the Christian equivalent, but you can quote fast from anything. So that Lent is people often give up something for Lent.

I don't know if I ever actually, I might have given up like candy or something at some point. I do remember though, I remember one of my friends when I was in middle school was doing a fast. It's so interesting to think how far you've come and perspective and mindset because I was much younger then. So it's a different situation. But I know she was doing like a, was it only, was it a 24 hour fast? It's probably like a 36 hour fast. I don't know. Might have been a 24 hour fast. I just remember like it was a whole thing. And that's the only memory I have about fasting related to religion that was for her church. So I don't think I did. Did you?

Barry Conrad
You know what, not without food or water, but what I do remember is like, have you heard of the Daniel fast or whatever that is?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you eat like what Daniel ate when he was in the lion's den, assuming he was there because we recently did an episode, and I know Barry listened to it, on the Mindblown podcast about biblical misconceptions. So many of those blew my mind when I learned them.

Yeah. So which ones blew your mind the most?

Barry Conrad
Well, the fact that it's the best selling book of all time, for some reason in my head, I didn't put together that it gets sold. It doesn't just come from nowhere.

So who's getting that money? A, B, B, the Jonah and the whale as well. It's actually meant to be a big fish, not a whale, technically.

Melanie Avalon
It never says whale, it says big fish, which could have been a whale, they could have been calling it that, or it could have not been a whale.

Barry Conrad
the three wise men there wasn't technically there weren't three oh yeah that was come on really

Melanie Avalon
Because because there were three gifts so that that's why we think that no no they name three gifts.

Barry Conrad
But what if there were 10 people or one person?

Melanie Avalon
Well, what if there were other gifts too? And Mary Magdalene, they never actually said she was a prostitute. I definitely thought it said that.

Barry Conrad
Sam, going back to what you said, Mel, assuming that what we're talking about, the Daniel diet, assuming he was in the lion's den and he actually ate whatever it was, like, it was a specific diet. Like, I've done that for a week and that's meant to be this hardcore thing, which is so easy to do now, but I thought that was, like, so meaningful at the time. Like, yay, I'm doing something for God, you know, eating this.

Melanie Avalon
It's like a, it's like a vegan fast, right? Like, isn't it very like vegetables and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I, I don't do that. I'm familiar with it though. I did not, I did not do it though. There you go.

Very interesting. Okay. Well, thank you for finding the study. Take away fasting for athletic performance. Yes. It's support. So it helps muscle growth, helps actual performance, body composition. Just make sure you're, you know, drinking, getting your electrolytes, sleeping. Yes. Really important. Shall we jump into some questions for today?

Barry Conrad
We should. Let's do it.

So, Carolina from Facebook, she asks, why am I feeling so cold when I extend my fast? I normally eat three meals in an eight hour window, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. every day. I stay under 50 grams of carbs and prioritize protein and fat. I'm very active every day. Resistance training, five days per week. Walk 13K steps every day. No need to lose weight. I'm in calorie maintenance. My goal is body re-composition. I like the idea of having one 800 calorie meal on Mondays for health reasons and digestive rest. But when I fast to delay my breakfast, I'm literally freezing. I have to have a full blast heater on. Is this normal? Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. So I love this question. And what could possibly be going on here?

I did some research and so people's core body temperature can vary pretty individually. And there tends to be, there's this concept of a human thrifty phenotype. I'm not necessarily saying that I know that Carolina, that this is the case for you. But that said, basically, they've done studies on people's energy expenditures, like how much energy and heat their body is producing and how that relates to core body temperature. And it seems that some people have a thrifty phenotype. And when they have that, their core body temperature drops more while fasting compared to people who aren't that phenotype. And then on the flip side, that same phenotype where they get colder while fasting, they also don't get as hot when overeating. And what's actually going on with the neurotransmitters and hormones is that people who have this thrifty phenotype, they basically don't release as much adrenaline and epinephrine during the fast. So it could be genetic. It could be completely normal that, yes, for you when you fast, your body just gets colder. It doesn't try to, or it more actively tries to preserve fat in the fasted state. That's one option. And I think that applies to a lot of people. Another thing is you could be over fasting or overdoing it. And this is just a signal to your body that it's too much. A benefit, kind of like a good thing about this is lower core body temperature in general does correlate to longevity. So calorie restriction, it has been the one thing consistently shown to promote longevity in all species. It also correlates to lower body temperature and lower body temperature tends to correlate to longevity. So not that it's like a great thing to be really cold feeling, but if you are cold, it might be more beneficial for longevity. So that's an upside. Something you could do. So there's some options here. There are some foods that you can eat. And I have found personally that they are very thermogenic and they actually keep me warm. If you've tried adding MCT oil to your food, that is so thermogenic. For me, it makes me really hot. So you might find that adding that to your meals can help you fast longer. If being too cold is impeding you from fasting, you might find, can find that adding MCT oil to your meals will keep your body temperature warmer. You also might want to try doing not the whole low carb diet thing and fasting, you know, doing the fasting hours that you want, but having carbs in your eating window. A lot of people when they do like a ketogenic diet or a low carb diet, they get cold from that diet. So yeah, that's definitely an option to play around with is try having more carbs in your diet. If you're worried about fat gain and weight gain and anything like that, I really want to encourage people that when you're eating whole foods, adding back in carbs after being low carb, as long as you don't also keep all the fats, you actually might find that you actually lose weight from that or see beneficial effects and energy,

Melanie Avalon
body composition, warmth, all the things. So that's something you could try is make a switcheroo and do a more higher carb, lower fat approach.

Yeah, but basically it comes down to yes, it is normal to get cold while fasting could be a genetic phenotype and that's just the way it is and not something you can change or it could be that you're over fasting either way, adding in, you know, carbs or MCT oil. Also, you can add in lots of like spices to your food. Those can have a heat, a heating effect. Actually, I might be a little bit wary about the spices because some people actually eat, add those to their meals because it does increase the temperature, but then they have a response to it where they're bought, the body adapts to cooling. It's kind of like how in hot cultures, they'll eat spicy food to stay cooler. So actually, maybe don't listen to me on that. I do know with the MCT oil though that, I mean, that makes me really, really warm. So what are your thoughts, Barry? And have you ever experimented with MCT oil?

Barry Conrad
I actually have not experimented with MCT oil in my food yet. Do you think it's something that I should experiment with?

Melanie Avalon
Just if, just, I mean, no, just if you want, just if you want, the reason I don't like it is how hot it makes me, honestly.

But it's basically a, especially if you get the C8 or C10 version, which is the most easily, like ketogenic, easily used fat compared to the more full spectrum. If you get just the C8 version, but basically it is a fat that kind of functions more like a carb because it is instantly shuttled to the liver, used for energy. It doesn't easily get stored as fat and it's very, it easily becomes ketones. It's very metabolism stroking, making you, you know, warm and thermogenic and all that. Yeah, it's an interesting food.

Barry Conrad
I have had some in my coffee.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so you've had it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, but I haven't experienced how it feels putting it with my food. Yeah, in general, I'd get pretty hot when I eat, which is kind of frustrating because maybe I'm just eating so intensely, but I get really hot.

What I thought, I mean, you hit everything so amazingly, Mel. The only thing that did cross my mind was when you said that maybe she isn't eating enough carbs, like the fact that, Carolina, you're training five times a week, 13,000 steps a day, like your body sounds like it's already efficient, and there's not a whole lot of extra body fat there for insulation, so you're probably going to feel that chill more. That's the only thing that I thought, which you mentioned. So maybe a tweak, having some more carbs in there. I don't actually get cold when, I don't really get cold when I fast, but you experience that, Mel, called the cold fasting effect.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. When I was low carb, I was much colder. Now, honestly, it really depends on the meal I had for my one meal a day. It is, it's kind of shocking how much it affects me.

So if I have, it kind of goes back to like the, the warming and the cooling foods, especially in like traditional Chinese medicine or Ayurvedic, I actually really find that that applies to me. So if I have a meal of, you know, just lean fish for my protein, I'll be colder the next day compared to if I have a meal with lots of like chicken or steak. Even if I eat the same amount of actual protein, the, the warming proteins really keep me warmer the next day and the colder ones I'm colder the next day.

Barry Conrad
That's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon
in the past I've done where I would just have, like I wouldn't have protein for like a no protein day. And that would make me really cold the next day.

Yeah, the foods you're eating can really, really affect you. But if I had that MCT oil, yeah. Actually, one of the reasons I kind of dread summer is because I feel like I have less freedom in what I can eat because I really don't like being hot. And so I feel like in the summer I have to be more cognizant of meal choices that won't make me really like too hot the next day.

Why are you laughing?

Barry Conrad
I've just never heard of someone say, like, I've never experienced, like, okay, the food that I ate yesterday, this is going to make me feel hot tomorrow, or it's going to make me feel colder tomorrow. That's amazing.

I've never thought of it in that way or experienced that, but maybe now that you've mentioned this, maybe I should try to pay attention to, like, have an experiment and see if I do feel different.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So, and it will especially, so, so some comments, um, it's a little bit different. Like it is the next day for me, but I eat my meal really late. And then, so the next day isn't even necessarily that long into the fast because I think I eat and I go to bed. But all of that said, because I'm so like, I, I'm so conscious and eat within a certain collection of foods. That's pretty similar.

Like I, I, I always crave a certain protein. So basically it's a chicken night or it's just a fish night or it's a steak night. So it's really easy for me to experiment and notice. It's yeah, it's easier for me to notice. So I'd be really curious if you do notice a difference, but you might always have, do you pretty much always have like chicken or steak or.

Barry Conrad
I have a lot of I have a lot of ground beef, steak, chicken, but oftentimes, like, I'll combine like how you said you like to have you crave one type of protein. I'll have smoked salmon to start, for example, or chicken wings to start, and then I'll also have beef. So I don't I often like combine protein. It's never just one.

So that's probably why I can't really I can't really notice because I'm always combining.

Melanie Avalon
Well, what's interesting is I always combine because I always have my scallops. So there's always a fish there, but then sometimes I have just chicken or steak. I'd be curious. Okay. So maybe notice if you have, if there's ever a day that you only eat seafood, see if you notice that you're not as hot.

Okay. There's this book. Okay. If, if friends are interested in this, oh my goodness, I love this book. It's very famous in the world of traditional Chinese medicine. It's called healing with whole foods. It is the, oh, with more than 600,000 copies sold. Okay. It is the biggest Bible of information about every food seen through the lens of traditional Chinese medicine and like yin yang balance. And so it has like, it literally has every food ever. It's crazy. It's so big. It's heavy. You could use it as a weight at the gym and each food, it'll say like, is this warming or cooling? And like, what, like, what parts of your bot, like what organs does it benefit? I love this book. Mine's like all, like all marked up with like notes and highlighters and stickies and that's a great book.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that sounds interesting. I definitely want to dive more into this because I know when I have spices, I get hotter, spicier foods, but that seems obvious.

But I want to try this fish-only day, chicken-only day, and see if it impacts how I feel.

Melanie Avalon
Here's something important, and I kind of said it earlier, but to clarify about the spices. So this is just me thinking it through in real time. When you eat a lot of protein or meat, A, protein is the most thermogenic macronutrient. And what that means is about 30% of the calories just get burned off as heat by processing the protein.

But the long-term effects of eating that protein, it's going to actually keep you warm and keep giving you heat because it's like a slow digestion process, it's thermogenic, et cetera, compared to spices. Where spices are non-caloric, they're not even providing, I mean, what, they might have like a calorie, but they're barely providing any calories, so they're not having a thermogenic effect from that perspective, but they can be very, you know, heating, like create the feeling of heat. But I think that ends up having the opposite effect, like I was saying, where your body gets good at cooling yourself down. So the longer-term effects of the spices might actually make your body cooler in the future, like not at the moment of eating it, because at the moment of eating it, eating either of these things, you're going to be probably feeling warm, but like the long-term effects, like eating a high protein meal is going to make you warmer later, but eating hot spices might make you cooler later.

Barry Conrad
There you go. Carolina, we hope that you- we hope that helped. That was- Melanie said it all. That was amazing.

Also, Melanie, I had to- you're like, why are you laughing? What do you say? I'm gonna be hotter tomorrow or cooler tomorrow. There was just- I've just never heard that. That's why I was laughing. It wasn't- yeah.

Melanie Avalon
You're going to start notice, you're going to notice.

Barry Conrad
And, yeah, you don't like somewhere. I know that. You don't like being hot.

Melanie Avalon
No, you know what's funny is within the past, I think a couple days, three, maybe three, I think three different, I got emails about three different concerts, all of which I would like to go to. They're all in ampli theaters outside in the middle of the summer in Georgia.

I don't understand who, why do people enjoy this? I'm so confused. Somebody please explain to me.

Barry Conrad
Melanie, a lot of people love to be hot and they love summer. Like, I'm sure you know that these people, like a lot of people like that.

Melanie Avalon
It's like so mind blowing to me, it's so crazy. And so I get these, I'm like, oh, I want to go to Mumford and Sons or I want to go to Kesha, but it's like in the summer outside.

Barry Conrad
Okay, but hold on, what if, because I'm guessing the show is like at night, so it would probably cool down.

Melanie Avalon
It doesn't matter. I was Googling. I was like, what time is it going to be?

I was like, what temperature is it going to be at seven o'clock in August in Georgia? And it could, it can literally still be like 80 degrees. I was like, I can't, this is ridiculous.

Barry Conrad
That's not even that hard. That's like 26 degrees Celsius. That's like the limit for me.

Melanie Avalon
Did you look up the right number? That is hot. That's too hot to be like, am I get up? Like my concert get up? I cannot.

Barry Conrad
What if you brought like an umbrella? That might sound intense, but a lot of people have umbrellas for the sun.

Melanie Avalon
it's already covered. It's like covered amphitheaters.

Barry Conrad
That's even better. You could do it. Like, why, why don't I try? Go, go.

Melanie Avalon
in another life. Why don't they do these in the winter outside? That's when I'm there. I'd show up for that.

Barry Conrad
Because you know what? In the winter, no singer, singers inside baseball want to sing in the cold. It's just the worst for your voice.

Melanie Avalon
I'd be there. Okay. Then how about the fall?

Barry Conrad
If there's humidity, it's easier to sing in. But again, what's good for you, the singers is not good for necessarily some audience members, aka Melanie Evelon.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's good for everybody? What? Singing inside.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
solves all the problems.

Barry Conrad
What it's so funny that you said you googled what temperature it could be.

Melanie Avalon
I did. I was, I really wanted to buy these tickets. And I was like, I just can't. And then what if it's raining?

Barry Conrad
You couldn't do it? Nope.

What would happen? Okay. So if you were there and it started raining, what would, how, what would go through your mind? Would you just hate that experience or would you deal with it?

Melanie Avalon
No, I would I would I mean, and it's covered so but it's just my hair would not be nice. You know what? I really love climate control. I'm just it's so great like inside climate control.

Barry Conrad
Have you, Tangent, but have you watched a show called Paradise? What happens?

Melanie Avalon
Is it not paradise? Is it in paradise, but it's not paradise?

Barry Conrad
Basically what you're saying makes me think of the show because long story short, these people have to get on this these flights and go to this like created manufactured world because there's going to be a catastrophe out in the real world. And the president takes like, I don't know, 10,000 people to this built world. And like it's everything's controlled like this, the weather and everything. So it made me think of that.

So if you could control, it's, it's basically in a mountain, they've created this world that looks exactly like normal city, but it's not. There's no sky, but people think there's a sky. It's all controlled. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I know this is so contrary to like our modern climate controlled everything is not good for us hermetically like we're not exposed to stressors and things like that but at the same time that's why I keep my air very cold inside I do sauna I do cryotherapy so I'm like it's like say it's like do as I I don't know.

Barry Conrad
Do as I say and as I do.

Melanie Avalon
But also, I mean, you can do it as I do. If you do it as I do, make sure you do all the other things too. Make sure you combat. One thing we don't want is to just exist in the perfect temperature all the time. That's not good for us.

Yeah, it's not good. We need those extreme temperatures and such. I just don't want the extreme temperatures while I'm seeing abandoned, singing and dressed up. That's why I don't want the extreme temperatures. I want it when I'm in a sauna, not singing or not dancing and such.

Barry Conrad
Okay. So if you had to choose between one of those concerts that you might, you're on the fence about maybe booking, which one will you go?

Melanie Avalon
I really wanted to go to Mumford and Sons because my sister's going and it would be a whole thing. Do it, do it, do it, do it.

Avril Lavigne, Katy Perry, oh, I think Katy Perry might be indoors, I don't know. Shall we break our fast, reverbially?

Barry Conrad
Let's break it proverbially. What do you got for us, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
So the restaurant I'm picking for today's restaurant, and the purpose of this segment of the show is because what, like we've been talking about, this whole conversation, what you eat and having the eating period is actually very, very important with your fasting because you get a lot of benefits from the fasting and you also need the eating period to nourish your body, grow that muscle, all the things. So I like picking restaurants from Disney World.

I'm picking this one today in honor of your story, Barry, that you posted, was it yesterday when the guy in the cab did not know about he had never been to a Mexican restaurant?

Barry Conrad
That's so funny, Melanie. Yeah, listen, I was to give you some intel, so I was basically in an Uber to a Mexican restaurant, and the Uber driver was like, hey, brother, where are you going to eat?

I'm like, having Mexican food. And then I started listening to the radio, just chilling out, and he just goes randomly. I never tried Mexican before, so it was really funny and random.

Melanie Avalon
What's so funny about this video is yes, Barry is just like selfie videoing himself singing in the car. Perfect timing. And then when he says that like the timing of it when he said it at the end, I was just dying life. I literally watched it five times in a row.

I thought it was so funny. The timing and then it just like cuts off. So I am picking the Mexican restaurant at the Epcot pavilion in Disney World. So remember how I've been telling you about the Epcot pavilion where there's all the different countries and each country has a restaurant and such. So the Mexican restaurant is called San, I probably am saying it wrong, San Angel N. It's probably the Mexican pronunciation, but San Angel N restaurante is so okay. Do you see the picture that came up?

Barry Conrad
I do. Oh, whoa, that that's beautiful. That's really.

Melanie Avalon
And if you go to the picture where you can see like the entrance, so there's water down there because there's actually a boat ride that explores the world of Mexico, as they say in it, Mexico, or I guess I guess and it's stunning. It's beautiful.

There's like Aztec structures in the background and like it's evening. It's very, very dark in there, very dark. It's really authentic Mexican food. My dad loves Mexican food. So we used to always go here. I think this is probably one of his favorite restaurants in Disney.

Yeah. So the setting is the base of 17th century Mayan ruins, a hacienda.

Barry Conrad
It looks like a set, like a film set. It's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
It does. It does look like a film set. Yeah, but it's just, it's so, I don't know. I love it.

The vibe. It's just amazing. Oh, and then if you like zoom out, which I don't think there's pictures of it here. There's not pictures. If you could see like outside of this restaurant, which is still inside, it's like, it's like a, um, it's set up like, uh, like being outdoors at this evening, Mexican. There's like little carts and like stores and it's like being outdoors. It's so, it's really pretty and there's fountains and.

Barry Conrad
Sounds great.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so shall we look at the menu?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to the dinner menu right now, checking it out. What have you got? I think I'm going to struggle.

Melanie Avalon
with this one a little bit actually no maybe

Barry Conrad
I love Mexican food by the way, haven't mentioned that to you before, I actually love it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I mean, I, yes, I think so. I'm pretty sure I think I would have, is it your, what's your favorite? Is it your favorite genre of food?

Barry Conrad
That's that this is really hard. It's really tough.

I did say what my final meal ever would be, but I think It's hard to just choose a genre because I just yeah, I love mexican love greek Love japanese. Oh, yeah I could be here all day, but I do love mexican. Do you have a favorite johner?

Melanie Avalon
Probably New American.

Barry Conrad
What would that be?

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I just know whenever I go to a new American restaurant, it's what I like. It's like steak and fish dishes and new American. It's a fusion. Oh, okay. I've never defined it, but I just know I really like it.

It's modern American cuisine or contemporary American cuisine, a wave of modernized cooking, predominantly served at upscale fine dining restaurants in the United States originating in the 1980s. It assimilates flavors from the melting pot of traditional American cooking techniques.

Barry Conrad
Hmm, okay.

Melanie Avalon
Sounds good. So it's, I'm not sure if that defined it enough, but like seasonal, okay. It's often like fresh local seasonal ingredients, focus on creative and lighter dishes, even though I like steak and such. Yeah, I think that's what I like about it.

It's often like seasonal and local, and there's always a lot of like protein options and it's like a steakhouse, but just American modernized.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Well, that tracks though, because you have a lot of stake and yeah, that makes sense from what you post.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so what would you get appetizer wise?

Barry Conrad
There's a few good ones here. There's a couple of things. Definitely guacamole. Love my guacamole.

That's gotta happen. So having some guac, I'm gonna also get the chilaquillas, which is the choice of shaved ribeye or chipotle chicken tortilla chips tossed in ranchera salsa, topped with coca cheese, crema, mexicana, and onions.

So that sounds delicious. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
I might taste the guacamole. Do they not have a shrimp cocktail? Is that not a?

Barry Conrad
No. No, it's not.

Melanie Avalon
I thought ceviche. I thought ceviche was a Mexican thing. Is it not?

Barry Conrad
I don't think it's, I don't think it's as such, but I do think a lot of modern Mexican, I think commercial Mexican food like here has a lot of kingfish and ceviche, but if this is meant to be legit, maybe it's not, I'm not too sure. And we should say the guacamole is topped with mango and toasted pumpkin seeds, served with chicharrones and salsa Valentina.

I'm just guessing that's how it's pronounced, but I'm just going with it.

Melanie Avalon
You I think it yeah I think it sounds good what you said okay it does occur in mexico.

Barry Conrad
Okay, okurr is a lie.

Melanie Avalon
Hello, Chris. Yeah. So the marinade in Mexico tends to feature tomatoes. Might have tomatoes, avocados, and tomato sauce with it.

Well, they don't have it here, so. I think I'll save my appetite for the entree. Yeah? Yes.

Barry Conrad
Okay, you go first.

Melanie Avalon
carne asada.

Barry Conrad
And you get that.

Melanie Avalon
served rare. I was debating between that and the chicken. I might get both.

Okay, the carne asada New York strip with Chipotle butter served with a tamal de raha topped with red and green salsas with a corn rice medley. So everything can just be on the side and have the carne asada you know rare by itself and then maybe also the polo a la raha raja raha grilled chicken breasts over roasted potatoes with onions poblano peppers corn and a poblano cream sauce topped with queso fresco again everything just on the side if possible

Barry Conrad
Could I have your potatoes if you're not going to eat them? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Oh, they also have a catch of the day. So it might depend what the fish is.

Barry Conrad
What if it's trout?

Melanie Avalon
I don't think they have, do they have trout in Mexico?

Barry Conrad
Yes, you know, as I was saying that I was like, is this not even a fish that they have there?

Melanie Avalon
The takeaway, I'm learning so much about the world, the takeaway on the shows that, uh, yeah, if they had trout, I would have that. I'm not sure if trout is there.

Barry Conrad
It says red snapper and Parago Rojo, a significant presence in traditional Mexican, includes a red snapper.

Melanie Avalon
red snapper yeah that's what's coming up a lot here yeah so i'll probably stick with the chicken and the steak how about you

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go for the enchiladas de polo, which is corn tortillas filled with chipotle chicken, covered with ranchera salsa, crema mexicana, cocha cheese, and crispy onion straws atop beans, served with plantains. Delicious.

Topped with crema, mexicana, and cocha cheese. And I'm also going to get the tacos because that comes with lava taco. And that comes with shaved ribeye, a choice of shaved ribeye or grilled chicken. I'm going to go for the ribeye.

Poblano and red peppers, onions, bacon, and Monterey Jack cheese, served with corn tortillas and plantains. Again, topped with crema, mexicana, and cocha. I want to see what their topping tastes like. It's a common additive on this menu.

Melanie Avalon
That sounds very adventurous.

Barry Conrad
Sounds very me.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And you know what you can get with it? What? Did you see at the bottom they have create your own margarita flight? Oh.

Barry Conrad
What? I haven't got that far yet. That's happening.

Melanie Avalon
They have a lot of drinks, but I feel like you can choose three. Is that what you would get? Would you get that?

Barry Conrad
I would absolutely, 800% get that and create my own Margarita flight. I will do. Okay. It says three LDR blood, orange, the cucumber classica, or the wild one. I'll get one. What's in the wild?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, you go look at the I see you look at it. Oh, I get you. I'm following now you pick from the

Barry Conrad
menu. This is the Classica, I feel like that's the classic, just standard. I want something spicy.

Oh, there we go, Aldiablo, that's got a cucumber jalapeno sauce, so that's going to be spicy. I'll do that one. I'll do the wild one, which is Centinella blanco tequila, combia, orange, liqueur, ginger rum, corn, passion fruit, cordial, lime juice, dos jombre, mezcal, grenadine, and hibiscus salt rim. And then one more, I'll go the Classica, just a classic as well.

Melanie Avalon
Like a nice palette cleanser.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, to end with, I should say. What drinks would you consume? Is there a wine list there?

Melanie Avalon
They don't even have a wine list, so this might be a BYOB situation.

Barry Conrad
and sneak in a little thing.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder, cause in Disney, I would have to sneak it into the park, but once it's in the park, I wonder if you can just bring in your own stuff because Disney, you can, you know, you can, you don't have to, you can drink, you can carry drinks around outside and such. Cause it's like all inside, I'm not all in, you know, it's like you're inside of a establishment type thing.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, right. That's pretty good if they do that because it's not really in Australia. It's not really It's not a thing where you can carry walk around with alcoholic drinks

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I think I'm pretty sure you can because there's booths everywhere. I mean, yeah, yeah, you have to be able to because there's like there's like walk up booths everywhere with drinks.

So would you get a dessert?

Barry Conrad
I don't know why I keep trying my luck because I know the answer of it. I just think maybe today she'll say, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
someday. I really applaud your perseverance. I think it's endearing.

Barry Conrad
Desserts I would get a couple things the brown sundaes catching my eye at first so that's a fudge brownie soda dulce de leche ice cream yum and topped with kajita sauce can I have that and then I have to have a. Yeah just maybe just the seasonal mexican flavored sorbet which is me of probably saying that incorrectly but sundae and some so.

Melanie Avalon
I can, I can answer for what I would get if I, if I ate desserts, I would get the, probably the chaseless cake. I love that whole concept.

Yeah. Do you like it? Or does it bother you? It bothers some people, like the soaked cake situation, like the milk soaked cake.

Barry Conrad
I actually made a cake, a tres leches cake with my mom a couple of years ago during Christmas. It was pretty good actually.

It was a nightmare to make though, it was a headache because the soaking and it took way longer than we thought so we were up all night doing it but it tasted pretty good. Tasted pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
that story no that was like a that was like a good that was a good sound sorry if it sounded not good i looked up i found a video of them making a trace i don't know how you say it trace leches funfetti cake once

Barry Conrad
How does I'm trying to picture how that would even look because it's

Melanie Avalon
confetti cake is the cake, and then drown it.

Barry Conrad
trying to milk one day one day you'll try it again maybe

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm getting the non-existent shrimp ceviche as my dessert that they don't have.

Barry Conrad
Imagine Melanie asking the server, could this shift just get me some?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, because is shrimp anywhere else on this menu?

Barry Conrad
I don't think so. I don't think so as well. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, no, it is. There's chipotle pepper and garlic sauteed shrimp in the Camerons a la Diablo. So shrimp is in the house. I feel like, can I get some shrimp?

Barry Conrad
What if they say, sorry, man, we can't, you know, it's kind of packaged with other ingredients. We can't do it separately.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Then I, then I'm just, I just, I just accept. I just give up.

Barry Conrad
Except defeat in this case you did well you chose this restaurant for my benefit, which I appreciate

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And I mean, I love the vibe. I would actually love to go here. The point is you can make any restaurant work, I think.

Yep. I thought, I thought, I don't actually, for me, I could not make a vegan restaurant work. That's the only thing I could not make work for me.

I could go. I just wouldn't, there wouldn't be anything to eat. That's okay, though.

Barry Conrad
I mean, it just wouldn't be anything good or fun, but I mean, there's vegetables and stuff, right?

Melanie Avalon
No, like, because I wouldn't. So if I'm like having my meal, like I need.

Barry Conrad
food. He sounded very, like, very passionate just then.

Melanie Avalon
So like, basically, I wouldn't want to just eat vegetables, it would just make me hungry and so I would just at a vegan restaurant, I would just rather, I'm totally down to go, I would just, I'm going for my sister's graduation, I would just rather not eat there, I sound obnoxious, I'm not obnoxious, I promise.

Barry Conrad
No, you're not obnoxious. You just, you don't want to be like, like angry and angry if you can't eat the things that you know that you need, right?

Melanie Avalon
You nailed it. Like I would just be, yeah, it would just make me more hungry. So yeah, okay. Well, we should definitely go here.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'm about it. I love Mexican food so much. I'm so down for that.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. Okay, well, this is super fun. Friends, thank you so much for listening.

If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 425. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
No, everybody have an amazing rest of your day. Thank you for tuning in and we'll catch you next time. See you, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
I'll talk to you next week. Bye.

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 421 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, Intermittent Fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with a very special listener guest today. We've been doing some episodes in this listener guest series, and it is just so, fun because for so long, for years and years and years, I've been doing this show and putting out content for everybody. And now I feel like it's time to actually talk with you guys and get your stories and hear your thoughts and your fasting experience. So I am just loving doing this. And today's guest has such an incredible story. I'm here with Pamela Wakeman. She is from Arizona, and she has a really incredible story about her fasting journey, and in particular, how it really helped her with navigating menopause and a lot of the symptoms that go with that. And she has so many experiences. So I have so many questions for her. And, and actually, to start it off, Pamela, when I was reading your story that you sent in, I thought it was so funny. So basically, you first found intermittent fasting because you thought Dr. Minnie Peltz's book fast like a girl was about running. What happened there?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, well, because yes, definitely I have been running long distance events for, you know, like a decade and I'm always looking for women focused sort of coaching. And I want to say there's even a blog that I was following before I moved to Colorado before I moved to Arizona. So maybe it was like 15 years ago now.

But I thought it was called Fast Like a Girl. And that's how I like Google that. And I came up with Mindy Pels book. But it wasn't until I actually heard her on Mel Robbins podcast that I understood like what she was really about.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I love that. Did you listen to my interview? I interviewed her on my other show, or was it this show, my other show, I think.

Pamela Wakeman
It was, I think it was a show. Let me Google really quick. She's definitely going to be a fasting lady.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I actually I had her on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, she was really, really great.

The work that she does is so profound and like we were talking about the beginning, she really understands adopting fasting for, for women's hormones and things like that. The beginning of your fasting journey. So you were exposed to her content. Did you, how did you feel? Were you skeptical? Were you excited? Did you immediately jump in? How did you start?

Pamela Wakeman
I had a boss, the manager at work mentioned to me about his fasting experience and it sounded kind of out there at the time. And I thought, good for him, those are pretty lofty goals.

As a couple of years had gone by, I started to have issues from everything from joint pain to hip issues to carpal tunnel syndrome, tennis elbow. I mean, it was all like one thing after the other after the other. And I was not the type of person who had these issues in the past. I had running injuries, but these were all unrelated and coming out of nowhere. And so I started to seek out ways that I could sort of help myself. And so when I heard Mindy talking about healing yourself through fasting, it put a whole different lens on fasting for me. It wasn't about weight loss, which I definitely had through menopause, I was gaining weight faster than I ever had, which was also surprising and a little scary. But the fasting in terms of inducing autophagy, this was incredibly interesting to me. And I thought, I need to try this right away because I was just about to have another hip surgery.

And I was thinking to myself, maybe I could have avoided this had I already had delved into fasting and multi-day fasting to be able to regenerate cells and restore my metabolism or reset as Minnie Pels likes to say. So yeah, I jumped in. Short answer, I jumped right in and started and built my way up to a 16-8 fast. And then I had been following her for about three months. And then she hosted a 72-hour fast at the beginning of the year, January. And I thought, oh boy, is this even safe? Like I started to question how I was even going to make it through. Because there's all these preconceived ideas of what going without food means in our society. I'm raising, she's 19 years old now, but at the time, my daughter was having issues navigating our diet culture and looking a certain way and feeling a certain way in your clothes.

And every time some of those thoughts that I had grown up with would come out of my mouth, and she would just look at me like, what is wrong with you? You can't say these things anymore. Like you can't go without food for a certain amount of time. And I'm like, but wait, this is under a different lens now. We're not talking about going without food because we are trying to lose weight and we just want to tough it through and get to the next day. And then just go and eat the same diet or eat the same kinds of foods that you were eating before. This is about you are emotionally and mentally aware of what you're doing. You're not doing it to punish yourself. You're doing it to unlock the power of your body to be able to heal itself. And sure, drop some fat or burn some fat, which is like a whole different viewpoint from losing weight. Losing water weight and losing muscle comes from dieting in an unhealthy way or in a way that's dysfunctional.

Pamela Wakeman
My daughter was in our society pushes forth, but this ability to sort of trigger ketosis and use those ketones to burn body fat. I mean, this was just so intriguing to me.

And trying to share it to my daughter as it was like, they were even skeptical because they were like, this doesn't sound healthy. This sounds scary. You shouldn't do this. So I really had to dive in and understand the science behind it before I could go back and talk to them about it more fully.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so many things there. Did your daughters come around to your perspective or how did that end up?

Pamela Wakeman
You know, my youngest is still of the mindset where she feels like she's young and she can, you know, wants to eat whatever she wants because she's young and doesn't want to deprive herself. And so, like, I feel like we've kind of met in the middle where she feels, you know, like she still wants to eat certain foods, but, like, she understands what those foods now can do to her metabolism. And so, she's making a conscious choice not because she feels entitled, because, you know, she's young and her body will burn, you know, calories or have a faster metabolism, but more because she just wants to be able to experiment with different types of foods.

And as long as she's aware of what's, you know, when she can control, you know, the types of foods that she's eating, like, for instance, you know, she does want to cut out sugar now because she understands, you know, what it can do to your skin. You know, having multiple reasons beyond just losing weight to look good is really more of an intrinsic motivator than just, you know, I want to look good in my clothes. My other daughter is more, she's cutting out alcohol, so she's looking at it from a different perspective where she's just like, I'm done, you know, going out with my friends and getting drunk on the weekends and partying. I'm really going to be more actively taking responsibility for my health from a health perspective, from a I want to be cleaner. I want to eat healthier whole foods and, you know, make sure that I'm not getting any toxins, you know, in my body. So, both of them coming from different perspectives and both of them very, very important for the whole, this whole process of fasting, because there's so many different pathways to detox, to be able to allow our bodies to be able to fast, you know, most efficiently. So, I feel like I'm having impact, but it's just different for different, maybe different age ranges, probably.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting. And I don't think I'll ever have kids.

One of the reasons I don't want to is I don't want to deal with the issue or the challenge of raising them the way I would want them to live with health choices and things like that, but also supporting, you know, personal freedom and agency. And literally, I just, it's just too much for me to deal with. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.

Pamela Wakeman
No, it's totally a lot. I was running under my, I could hear my parents' voices in my head as I was hunting my kids.

And then it wasn't until, I mean, I went through a divorce and I started to become my own person. I was going through menopause. I was really understanding who I was for the first time. And from that lens, I could actually parent my kids in a more effective way, I think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that. It's ironic because I feel, especially on my other show, I feel like I read so many books that touch on all this, so I'm learning a lot, but I don't think I'll ever actually practically implement it.

And something I think about a lot actually is, so this is not fasting, and I'm not endorsing fasting for kids. It's, you know, 18 or older, but food choices, like the healthy food choices you make, I also feel conflicted about that because on the one hand, I wish, like I wish I had been raised eating like non-processed foods and whole foods and healthy foods, but I ate, you know, all the junk. And it's like I have all these really great memories involving like junk food. So it's this weird dichotomy of like having fondness surrounding these foods that I no longer eat, wondering what it would have been like if I'd never eaten them. It's just really intriguing. It's interesting to think about.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, like the other day, I mean, like when I was growing up, my dad would be like, don't eat all that cool whip, you know, because it's bad for you, it's full of sugar. But like now I see on like ketogenic, like blogs or whatever, they'll have recipes with like, not you know, sugar free cool whip, like make these great desserts. And like you can eat the whole tub. It's like, Oh, awesome.

Like, you know, it's, it's again, a whole different point of view. Like you want the fat in your diet now you want to be able to, you know, feel satiated, and we do need fat in our diet to do that. So that does, you know, bring up like the conjure up like the old junk foods of yesteryear.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and speaking of the food, and your personal diet, the foods that you've eaten historically and then when you started fasting, how did that change for you personally?

Pamela Wakeman
When I first heard Mindy talking, she would say, talk about this story about this man that she was training or she was coaching and how he would eat the same foods, but just in a smaller eating window. And so to me, I guess I wanted to start that way so I wouldn't feel like I was really dieting or making a huge life change all at once. So I didn't change much of my diet. I just compressed my eating window.

And then as I started to maybe drop a few, I started to gain momentum and think, oh, well, it's working. What else can I do to make it even more effective? And so I started to learn about detoxing my body from I started to eat more meat, but I realized that the kind of meat I was eating had to be a little bit cleaner, couldn't just go out and eat any ribeye. It really should be a grass-fed, grass-finished ribeye if I'm going to be able to eat the whole thing and have the fat be of benefit to my body versus pulling in all the chemicals from the pesticides that the cattle eat. So that started to just build on itself. So I stopped eating grains because grains, again, are one of those foods that are sprayed with toxic chemicals.

And I started to replace these foods with other foods that had more protein because having already been clued into the fact that women in menopause have to have even more protein in their diet from reading the book Roar, which is about women who are active, very active, and want to keep staying active even through menopause. There are protein needs that you have to, you really have to maintain. So just finding foods that have more protein and finding ways to just sneak in protein wherever I could, but still fast. So that was kind of tricky, trying to get in enough protein and still stay in a fasting state or a fasted state.

But then I went all into what am I cooking with and how am I cooking these foods? I'm cooking with pots and pans that have Teflon all over them and I'm storing them in plastic containers and I'm using aluminum foil to cook on when I barbecue. It's things like that. It's like, oh, wait a minute. These things are impacting how the nutrition of the food is actually being absorbed in my body or not being absorbed for that matter. So I had to make big changes in the kitchen to get rid of the plastics and the toxic kitchen cookware.

And then beyond that, then it led into, and I know you're familiar with this, the cosmetics, cleaner cosmetics, because I'm living in Tucson where it's really dry. So I'm using all creams, moisturizers where I'm using a lot of it. So is it clean or is it full of different kinds of chemicals that impact my hormonal system? So yeah, everything is impacting the way my body reacts to the foods ultimately that I'm eating, because if the foods aren't able to find a way into my cells because they're blocked by toxins, then I'm not doing the best that I can do for my body.

But this took a while. It took a good year to figure out. Had I known all this at the very beginning, it probably would have been too overwhelming, and I might have stalled out and not continued on with it.

Pamela Wakeman
So I'm glad that I had the chance to just ease my way into it and learn about all this slowly and through different people. Mindy Pels was one person, and ultimately I did actually get a certification with her to be a coach for Fast Like a Girl so that I can help other women enter into that lifestyle.

But also, it's good to have lots of different teachers and really vary the different teachings and understand things from different perspectives, because there's so much out there and a lot of it is conflicting, and to weed through it is tricky. So you have to view it from the lens of your life and what's reasonable for you, or else you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.

Melanie Avalon
You are touching on something that I think so many people experience, and this happened to my friend really recently, which is that when you start this health journey, you said something about how it's a good thing that you weren't exposed to all this information right at the beginning because you would have been overwhelmed. And I think that happens so often with people.

If they want to make change, they can almost feel stuck. If they realize all the things they need to change compared to it being an evolving journey where at least for me personally, what I experienced and what I think a lot of people experience and I'm hearing with you is that when you find it's kind of like the gateway drug, but like the thing that works like fasting for you and you feel the difference and you feel the benefits, then you get excited about everything that you get to learn. And then you can slowly tackle all the things. At least for me, it was like, oh, okay, now what can I do next? And so I really think people can switch that mindset from a potential fear-based mindset of all the things they have to do to one of empowerment of all the things they get to do on their own timeline, on their own pace, or at their own face. Was that sort of your experience? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
In fact, more recently, you know, when I was listening to your podcast, Vanessa was talking about autophagy and she was citing a study where, and I hope I get this right and do her justice, but she had said that there is the same amount of autophagy or to trigger the same amount of autophagy from a 72-hour fast, you can get the same amount or same effect from doing a 30-minute strength or resistance training workout, which is like to me, like that says, okay, so now after I've been on this fasting journey, I'm learning something new that maybe I don't want to do like, maybe my, I can do like a 72-hour fast a couple of times a year, but maybe I don't want to do them off more often than that. And in, you know, to replace that or in addition to that, I can do some, you know, I can really get more resistance training in and kind of extend the amount of time that I was doing it to get the same effect.

That to me kind of blows my mind because, you know, now I have two different tools at my disposal that I can use to get the kind of healing that I'm looking for. And yeah, I think that the more you kind of dive into this world, the more tools you find and the more varied they are, I think that's important because your body needs to, from what I understand, your body really needs to switch it up and to be, you know, confused a little bit so that it has to adapt and learn something new. And then that adaptation kind of makes those changes in your body. And that's where you start to see, you know, the physical changes too.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Vanessa, she's amazing at finding all of these incredible studies, especially around things like protein and autophagy and training. And yeah, I vaguely remember her talking about that one. Something else you touched on that I love is the exposing yourself to different ideas. I think this is so important, like always having an open mind and, you know, engaging with all different ideas and perspectives.

And it's interesting. So one I got reminded of when you were talking was, and we haven't aired this yet at the time of us personally recording, but by the time this episode comes out, it will have aired. So episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman, who's well known for the Forks Over Knives documentary and some books surrounding that. He co-wrote the Whole Foods diet with John Mackey, who is the former CEO and founder, co-founder of Whole Foods. And he has a company called We Be Calm, but he's really amazing and he's very much in the vegan sphere. He brought up actually the concept of toxins and animal fat. And I was saying, well, we could eat, you know, grass fed, grass finished and things like that. And then he was saying, well, no, actually there's not much difference between the toxins and grass fed, grass finished versus conventional because of how saturated these persistent organic pollutants are. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting. So maybe, maybe we should, well, A, I need to look into that more and B, maybe that means we should actually leaner meat, you know, regardless. And so then for episode 414, which I realized comes before that, but we recorded it out of order. You'll have to listen to that episode because we, I went down the rabbit hole trying to find the studies on this. It wasn't very promising, basically, basically there, there does seem to be on the one hand, there does seem to be similar compounds in animal fat, even if it's grass finished organic. I do think it's slightly less, but either way it sounds like going leaner with the meat in particular can actually reduce your exposure to those compounds. But then it's ironic because then there's things like fish where the main, you know, problem with fish is mercury. And that's actually preferentially stored in protein, not in fat. So going leaner with fish doesn't really address the mercury problem. It's so, and the reason I bring this up is because like you were saying, there's so much information out there and so many different conflicting perspectives that, well, A, to tie into the earlier theme, it could be overwhelming or B, it could be empowering because it means, you know, we're always learning and we're always finding what works for us personally. Yeah. So I'm not trying to scare people away from eating, you know, fatty, grass fed, grass finished meat. I personally still think it's really healthy. So I differ a little bit, but it was a really interesting conversation. You'll have to listen and let me know what you think.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, because I mean, one of the cool things about Mindy Pels was that she took it beyond just the fast like a girl, and she just recently released a book called Eat Like a Girl, and it really is composed of a lot of vegan or vegetarian recipes, which I wasn't expecting. I was expecting, I guess, because of the focus on protein, I was expecting more meat-based meals.

So when I started to make these foods, I was like, well, this is way out of my comfort zone, number one, because I wasn't, I'm not a vegetarian. But number two, it exposed me to the possibilities of eating more vegetarian meals, because I don't, like I wasn't, I'm just not familiar with like, eating things like tofu and tempeh, and just understanding how to prepare these foods so that they're not like going to attack your, you know, metabolism, like, you know, the different toxins that come from eating plants, like that I wasn't even aware of before I learned about this, you know, the things that kind of create different blockages in your body, like spinach and kale, I guess I used to think, okay, the more the better and now I'm like, okay, but not if it's not cooked, oxalates, yeah, oxalates, don't cook it too much, you know, cook it enough where you're breaking down the oxalates so that you know, you can eat some of these foods for the nutritional value. So it's, it's, again, it's tricky understanding just based navigating the foods that you eat, and which ones are safest to eat, and which ones you really have to understand how to prepare them or pair them with other foods in order for them to be, you know, the safest way to eat them. So yeah, I've gone from like, learning about fasting to now I'm getting into, you know, the nutrition side of things and the strength training side of things. So it's, it's just evolving, which is why I guess I consider myself like, recreational bio hacker, because I'm trying these different things without, you know, too much like concern about like, the effects, like, I just want to see what will happen and then, you know, kind of pivot from there.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that approach. That is something I remember from interviewing and reading her book, Dr.

Peltz is she's, she's on the lower protein side of things, which I personally, I mean, I feel like it's obvious if people listen to this show, we, I just think a focus on protein is so, so important. I just think it's the most nourishing thing for our body, especially when it's paired with fasting, because, you know, you have the, the fasting period to reduce MTOR and IGF-1, these signaling pathways for growth and stimulate, like you were mentioning, autophagy and stimulate all these repair systems in the body. And then when you eat, that's when you're doing the actual repair and you need that protein for, for not only for growth of muscle and support muscle mass, which is so key for health and longevity and metabolic health, but also for just hunger. Like, you know, a lot of people struggle with hunger and there's, you know, this protein leverage hypothesis that we will feel hungry until we meet our protein needs. So yeah, protein is definitely one where there's all different opinions. How much protein do you try to get daily?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I don't really track. I mean, I kind of like look at the foods that I have and I know kind of in my head, like how much a serving has. And so I kind of, I don't kind of, I do have, I have an issue with hunger. So I really do actually take in probably more than maybe somebody else who like my husband, for instance, he's like, he, I mean, again, he's men and women fast differently and metabolize differently. So I don't mean to compare the two, but I definitely see a difference in our hunger levels.

And so I definitely need to eat additional protein to get, you know, to feel satiated. And, you know, I was doing butter in my coffee for a while. And, and I think for a while, like it worked, but then I found that, you know, it was probably an added calorie intake that maybe I didn't need. And that I, if I, you know, fat, maybe with more fat with my first meal around lunchtime that I was, you know, that was okay. That was a different sort of sort of composition of a meal versus having the fat early in the day. Cause I did want to have benefit from the, the, the fasted workout. I like the fasted workout. I it's, I don't work out for very long cause I don't have a lot of time, but I, you know, from, from what I'm learning, you don't really have to work out for very long if you're, if you're doing, you know, targeted exercise. So I feel like a fasted workout feels really good, you know, for my body. So yeah, no more butter in my coffee, but I'm still doing the MCT oil in my coffee. I love that. I love the creaminess of it. It just gives it a different taste and texture. It feels a little bit more like a kind of a meal. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, but then I definitely like scoops of cottage cheese or grass fed, you know, Greek yogurt later on with, I guess in the evening, I'll have that with berries to, you know, kind of calm down for the evening and feel full. And so that I can have a good night's sleep too. That helps.

Melanie Avalon
well. Cottage cheese and berries are two of my favorite things. That's amazing. I love that.

Well, actually, okay, where do I want to go from here? So, well, I wanted to touch on something that you, so you mentioned earlier about your daughter trying the not drinking thing. I feel like the whole sober curious movement is very popular right now. In your intake form, you're talking about, what were you saying about, about alcohol?

Pamela Wakeman
haul that I guess about six months into my fasting I started hearing about dry farm wines and I was like oh I'm all over that you know because now I can drink wine and not feel guilty about it or whatever you know the sugar you know was it was not the added sugar that you would get from just a wine off the shelf and I never really paid much attention I would just get whatever wine was you know affordable at my local you know a wine shop or whatever but then I started doing the dry farm wines and I really enjoyed it but I realized that for me personally it was too much that I needed to just in general I needed to cut back on any alcohol not all but definitely during the week and like really be mindful of what I was taking and like you know going to restaurants and all their beautiful cocktail menus it was like you know okay you know there were like treats and you know instead of a dessert I would have a cocktail I'm like what am I doing like this is this is this is too much it just feels like too much and it feels like I'm standing still like I'm not I'm making all these progress forward with with fasting and with you know healing my body and then I'm going and you know drinking these drinks that I don't really need but I'm doing it because it looks fun and you know I want to relax on the weekends and so I just had to find different ways like different alternative drinks like kava drinks and adaptogenic drinks to kind of replace you know because I still had that habit of like maybe going for a cocktail in the evening but just replace it with something a little bit less less alcohol because the so many calories and alcohol I was just I felt like I was just like I wasn't progressing forward so it for me it was really a blocker that I had to address and I hear people talk about like oh we should only have a glass of wine at night it's like a glass like who has a glass of wine I always have like at least two glasses of wine like and that is like you know if it's like 200 calories of glass then like that's my whole workout today and like I'm not working out so that I can burn calories so I can have more wine like this is not what this is supposed to be this is about moving forward and getting you know for longevity sake now you know this is about feeling better not just standing still so I I guess I fought it for a long time Melanie I wanted to keep my wine and keep my tonics and I had to finally admit that this is what was holding me back so I just think that you know the women that I coach I I'm going to be part of it like oh you should probably cut out you know cut down on your alcohol no you should really cut down on your alcohol but you know of all the drinks that I love the most you know I do love the dry farm wine

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I obviously love this topic. And I think it's so individual. And people really have to know themselves and find what works for them.

And the dry farm wines piece is, if you are drinking, it's such a key, it's such a key difference. Because if I were to drink because I do drink wine every night. And if I, if I were to drink conventional wine, I would just feel horrible. And I can't believe I was like, I was in a phase like in college. And after when I was just drinking like cheap wine all the time. And I literally could not do that. Now I would feel so unwell the next day.

So I have to stick to my, my dry farm wines. I actually even went, it's funny yesterday, I went to total wine and more I was like, I'm going to see if I can find wines that seem to meet dry farm wines criteria, which is organic, low alcohol, 12.5% or less free of added sugar free of added sulfites. I wouldn't be able to know if it was tested for mold and toxins and all that stuff. I literally stood in the aisle, I was probably there for like, and I knew where to go. I was like, I'm gonna go to the French section, I'm gonna look at the Loire Valley, I'm gonna find like a low alcohol gamay. That's organic. Like I got this. I was there for like 45 minutes and couldn't find anything. So yeah, there's definitely something special to dry farm wines if you are drinking. The thing I was thinking from your format you're filling out was you were saying, because I'm glad you put this in here, because I have heard people say this, which is that drinking alcohol will hijack the liver for detox for the next 22, 72 hours. So the body will not use the fasting window to burn fat.

So I don't know where that idea started. I think maybe that's the case for some people. I can say definitively, at least from my experience that at the very least, it's not always true. And the reason I know that is because I have had a glass of wine every night with the exception of I did try not drinking for a year to see if I felt any better. I did not. So I was like, well, we tried that. I know that I've pretty much had a glass of wine every night for like a decade, minus that one year. And during that decade, I have definitely gained and lost weight. So that negates that idea always being true, if that makes sense. Like basically, I know I've lost weight. I know I burn fat while having wine in the evenings.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, and it feels like you should, right? Because it's like not a sugar alcohol.

I mean, it's a sugar alcohol, but it's not the added sugar, right? Like so you, it really is just the alcohol the liver is burning down or breaking down.

Melanie Avalon
which it would burn first, too.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah and if your body's used to like the same amount like every night I feel like your body adapts so it's probably breaking it down quicker that's my opinion because I guess on days where you drink more and where you know where you've had more than you normally would then maybe that would would be the case you need extra time to recover or your your liver would have more time that it needed to recover but then you could also take some charcoal activated charcoal and that could help you know speed things along too which I totally believe in now since I've been using that you know when I eat things like lots of carbs that I didn't mean to eat but you know they were the only thing that was available or something like that.

Melanie Avalon
I think we might have talked about that on the show, that idea before. It's really interesting.

I mean, it does make me think, cause I recently interviewed, I haven't aired it yet, but Dr. Kate Shanahan, I had her on the show again. She's the one who wrote deep nutrition and the fat burn fix. And then her most recent book is called dark calories. She's the person who really made the whole idea of seed oils being a problem. She's the one who kind of shown the flashlight on that in the beginning and is continuing to do so. But she does talk a lot in that book about how, you know, some people with metabolic issues and insulin resistance and stuff, how they almost like never burn fat, they're pretty much, you know, always burning sugar. So I could definitely see situations where with certain signaling, certain people may not burn fat in the fast. So I can see, basically I can see how it might be a thing, but I don't, but saying like, Oh, if you drink, then you're not going to burn fat for 72 hours. That's just not a true statement, like across the board for everybody.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, okay. That's good to know. I'm glad that you brought that up because that was a fear of mine for sure.

Melanie Avalon
You heard of Z-biotics? Yes. Mm-hmm. Sure. I'm obsessed with them too. I just found them sort of a few months ago and they're super cool. It's like a GMO probiotic that breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the toxic byproduct of alcohol in the stomach. It's... Yeah, I love that. But in any case, I super applaud you for knowing what works for you and, you know, really it requires a lot of self-awareness and commitment. So, kudos to you.

What type of cava do you have?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I was drinking, I was trying Trucava, which is a product that was on store shelves. It's like a soda, but I already use element, element tea for hydration. So I thought, you know, I could make a cocktail out of element tea and soda water and cava and kind of create my own concoctions so that I could have different flavors when I wanted them and just experiment with like different dosages of the cava, so it would be like a tincture of cava from, you know, health food store and just see what kind of effect it would have and, you know, how much I really needed to feel and to get an effect that I liked without feeling too sort of out of it, you know, because I still have things, you know, I still have to be productive even at the end of the day. So I don't want to feel like, okay, I'm done.

I'm just going to go sit on the couch now, you know? But cava, you know, ashwagandha, those are the two main ones. And yeah, I think those are the two main ones for drinks that I would use.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. There's something I want to, there's a brand, I haven't tried it yet. They're supposed to send it to me. I need to follow up because I'm dying to try it.

But they make a product called, I think it's called like hard ketones. And basically, I haven't tried it yet. But I watched their video with Tim Ferriss about it. And apparently, I didn't know this. Apparently, there's a ketone that it's not. Okay, I don't want to like say it wrong. It's like an intoxicating ketone. So like basically, it will give you a buzz. But it's not alcoholic. And it's literally just a ketone. And they've turned this into a drink. I'm very intrigued by this concept. Because I always thought of ketones as like the energy substrate, not an intoxicating type feeling, not to say we should all get intoxicated all the time, but basically getting like this, you know, this feeling that you might be desiring from alcohol, getting it from ketones in this drink. So I will report back listeners because I'm very intrigued by this brand. One thing okay, so going back to the fasting, one thing I definitely wanted to touch on is I love that you when you start so when you started fasting, you used the prep for the surgery as a way to jumpstart your fast. Is that right? Like that you had to fast anyways? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
That's true, I did. I had a surgery coming up for my hip and the timing was such that I could use that as an opportunity because the doctors make you fast for varying lengths of time before surgery. So it seemed like, okay, I'm doing it anyway, I'm just gonna keep it going. And that concept of being able to speed up the recovery, kind of sort of that momentum kept me going.

So I didn't need any like fasted snacks or any kind of special, not special, but like I didn't take in anything else other than water because I wanted to see if this was like really going to help me heal faster. Hard to say because the surgeries these days are so, you know, amazing that, you know, especially for hips, so you're up and about in like a couple of days anyway. But yeah, I mean, I was definitely, gosh, I think I was running a race by Thanksgiving, I wanna say. So yeah, I think that, I think it definitely would have helped. I also had COVID like three weeks after. I fasted through that with element and water and slept. And so, I mean, I don't know. I definitely didn't have it for very long, maybe three days, but I had it and it went away and I felt, you know, great afterwards. So I feel like it's also a great way to sort of heal from like colds and, you know, as long as you're getting, I guess fluids, you know, I didn't feel that it was necessary to eat anything. And if it's gonna make me heal faster then what it's all the better.

Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. I loved reading that from you because it's such a similar response that I have, which is basically if there's ever something that would cause me to not be eating. So for example, like prepping for a colonoscopy or like you said, getting COVID, I'm like, yay, this, I see it as like as a, as a way to have a longer fast. It's actually sort of exciting. I mean, being sick isn't exciting and colonoscopies aren't exciting, but the longer fast is, is nice.

So I love that. It's kind of like a little hack that people can do. So for me, for example, fasting, I do the same thing fasting wise every day. And I have essentially for a decade with very little deviation. I don't think that's for everybody. I think a lot of people like you were mentioning earlier, do well with switching things up and you seem to be pretty comfortable with, you know, switching up your fast and finding what works for you. So, so how do you do that? Like how often do you switch around your fasting protocol? How planned is it versus not planned? Do you ever not fast? What is that like for you?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I definitely take a day where I don't fast. I guess I try to, for the most part, do five days of fasting and then two days I'll switch it up and it's usually the weekends.

So it depends if I'm training for something or not. I'm mainly, I'm pushed to like, I like to get to the 17 hour mark because Mindy Pels has different lengths of fast that she talks about and really has research behind. Then she says the 17 hours is really like a sweet spot for autophagy, for starting autophagy. And so I try to get at least a 17 hours, if not, you know, to 20 hours to get that effect. So sometimes I'll do like a one meal a day, if I'm not, you know, if I was one of my days and then one day I won't fast at all. That's pretty much, you know, just because I like to have dinner, you know, with my husband in the evenings, that's kind of our time to catch up. I feel like that meal, I don't want to skip on. So it's much easier to skip out, skip the earlier meals because I'm so busy during the day working. And again, I think that just switching it up is really key because yeah, I feel like the body sort of gets used to a certain like schedule of, you know, a pattern. Then the progress kind of stalls a little bit.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that you can do that so intuitively. Does your husband fast? No.

Pamela Wakeman
But I have been switching over to ketogenic cooking. And so he'll eat the dinners that I make that are keto.

But he still, yeah, he likes to have his breakfast. So he doesn't fast. But if he did, he'd probably disappear.

Melanie Avalon
He's very lean. And how do you find doing things socially? Does it ever become an issue? Do people give you grief? Do you adapt pretty easily? What is that like?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, like, socially, I'll try to save it my non fasting day for a day that I'm gonna, you know, go out with friends, I'll eat whatever, you know, is there. And, you know, right now, I'm enjoying the fact that I'm getting a lot of great Mexican food down here in Tucson, which is new for me. So I'll take advantage of that.

Yeah, I mainly like will try if it's not something that I'm planned for, I don't get grief, and it's pretty easy for me to sort of just like, if I'm going to go some to some of his house or to a party, I'll bring, you know, my own, like, food that, you know, I'm going to share, but it'll be food that I know I can eat. So that really makes it easier for me to, you know, eat, you know, while I'm there. And then, you know, I can usually have my choice of different kinds of drinks. So somehow I can I make it work. And it doesn't seem to bother anybody. I think that I did probably get well, I, my daughters say that I probably lost maybe too much weight in the beginning. Because, again, it was sort of like the momentum like just like I was just continuing continuing just to see how far I could take it. And I felt like I was doing okay. But like, they're like, when they saw me and came to visit for Thanksgiving, they're like, Yeah, you should probably like, you know, even it out a little bit now, maybe cut back a little bit on the cut fasting, because you look really good.

But you know, you don't need to lose any more weight. So, so I think there is a tipping point, you know, where, because the, the ketones or the ketosis, like, it does make you feel really good. And it does make you feel like you have a lot of energy. And so moving past a meal does kind of feel effortless. So just being mindful of the fact that like, Oh, yeah, you still need to get that nutrition in though, because that's really what's, you know, gonna make your body performance fast. So rate it rated it a little bit. You

Melanie Avalon
if you need to, yeah. Yeah, so you said you lost around 20 pounds since September?

Pamela Wakeman
Since September, yeah. I mean, I started back in, I started HRT, like your hormone replacement therapy around June. And I swim quite a bit. So I lost about 15 pounds from just the hormone replacement and the additional exercise.

And then when I found fasting, that really like was the additional, I guess, trigger that I needed to lose the extra, you know, weight that I gained over the, I guess, you know, over 20 years, I really did just sort of, because I did, didn't pay much attention. And I was raising kids and I was cooking for them. And I just didn't pay much attention to, to myself. Really, I wasn't taking care of myself. And that's one of the great things about menopause is that, you know, you do find, finally find the time to take care of yourself and realize that your importance

Melanie Avalon
I love that. And I will say to the HRT point, I recently posted in the Facebook group, a post asking people's opinion on HRT. And I don't think I have ever had so many enthusiastic responses.

Like literally, there was, well, A, so many responses, B, every single one was like shouting to the rooftops about how it changed their life. So I was like, oh, I need to dive into this some more. So I'm glad that that was really helpful for your experience.

Pamela Wakeman
I did get the same, I don't know if this is a thing, but if you've heard of this before, but I went to my doctor and she gave me a hard time. I took the hormone testing or the blood test that said you're definitely in menopause, your hormone levels definitely show signs of that you've been in menopause for a while, so it was probably 55 at the time or 54. So I thought the next, you know, obvious next step would be to go on hormone replacement therapy. It was kind of tough to get her to agree to it and so I really had to kind of go outside of my, you know, normal doctors and go online and find, you know, like an online prescriber who would be able to do that for me.

You know, there's lots of them out there now, but at the time it seemed kind of risky because I didn't know anybody else who was doing that kind of thing, but now it's just so much more prevalent because, you know, there is this hesitancy from doctors to just sort of prescribe it because of whatever risk factors that came along with like studies that were back in the 90s that had these different sort of like alerts to that women like shouldn't be taking hormone replacement therapy because of breast cancer risks or blood clotting risks and things like that. So I just felt like I was a good candidate for it. I knew my health, you know, history and I didn't have the kind of risks that they were talking about. So in order to get what I needed, I had to go outside of my normal doctors. I'm glad I did because I got the help I needed and now I'm looking for new doctors.

Melanie Avalon
I should honestly try to do an episode on this and Peter Atea, I don't know if you listen to him. You said you do. Yes. Yeah. So he has so many amazing episodes on this, which is basically, there was like this study that drew conclusions about HRT and breast cancer in women, but it was completely like just not accurate in it and how it presented the risk. And it basically made all these doctors fearful of HRT when the risks just from what, if you listen to him, you'll just be like, okay, they're just not there.

There's like really a lot of benefits that can come. And so it's interesting, especially because pharmaceuticals usually are so easy to be pushed. It's really interesting to me that it's taken so long to come back from that study and the findings of that study. Yeah. Kudos to you too. Being like, no, I need this.

Pamela Wakeman
Well, I mean, I had an x-ray when I was having my hip done and they noticed a fracture in like in my back. I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to him for any issues with my back, but he noticed this and he said, you need to go get a DEXA scan to find out what's going on there.

And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what is happening? Like, I don't understand, you know, why my bone, what's happening to me? Why are my bones suddenly like, and you know, obviously women in menopause, their bones start to, you know, there's bone density is a thing. And so I realized that taking the HRT actually is really good for bone density. And one of the best reasons to take HRT is to maintain bone density, you know, the years, you know, as you get older. So even if it wasn't for, you know, the other symptoms that I had, I might still take it just for that reason alone because of the fracture that I had in my back. So there's that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I'm so, so glad you found that out. Okay. Well, this has been so, so amazing. I think it's really, really empowering for people to hear and just like, I really, really love your mindset and approach to all of this. It's so, I love how you like seek out all these things and you try them and you find what works. It's just really, really amazing and incredible.

What would you like to leave listeners with when people ask you about intermittent fasting for people who, you know, are struggling or haven't even tried it? Like what is your, your big go-to advice or final thought for, for people on fasting?

Pamela Wakeman
It's not something to be feared, it's fasting is something that empowers you to take control of your own health instead of like leaving your health choices and decisions in the hands, all of your choices in the hands of your doctor. You do have choices that you can make on your own and this one has so many potential benefits that it's at least worth a try, you know, move into it slowly and there's no need to rush into it.

I'm one of those people who like wanted to go all in full, you know, 72 hours all at once and that will not work. It just won't work. I mean, you can power through but you'll never want to fast again after that if that's your first experience with it. That's just it's too much too soon. So definitely just try it and you might be surprised for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. I love this so much.

Well, thank you so much, Pamela. Thank you for coming here and sharing your story and all the things. It was, I really had a wonderful time. It was awesome.

And Pamela, how can people best follow your work, all the things?

Pamela Wakeman
Yes, I have a website for Pamela Wakeman Wellness, where I am a certified health coach with open source wellness. And I am also working toward my credential for board certification for health coaching.

And one of the requirements for the certification is that I offer free health coaching to anybody who is looking for health coaching or wants to try it to see if that's something that's for them. And so I thought I'd offer, you know, at least three free sessions to get them started and it's all volunteer basis. But if it's something that, you know, your audience is interested in, I definitely have, like I said, the certification for the Fast Like a Girl coaching, but I'm also health and wellness coaching. So anything under the gamut, I'm definitely, you know, able to accommodate.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So how can people do they just go to your website or how can people contact you for that?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, you can email me at Pamela at PamelaWakemanWellness.com or phwakeman at gmail.com. Either one will hit me and let me know if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, congrats in advance on that.

And for listeners, we will put all of that in the show notes as well. So Pamela Wakeman, wellness.com. The show notes will be at I a podcast.com slash episode 421. And we talked about a lot of things. So definitely check out those show notes. There'll be a full transcript there as well. And if you would like to be a guest on the show, we would love, love to hear your story and have you. So you can actually go to I a podcast.com slash submit and there is a submission form there. So check out that link. And if you have questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I a podcast.com. All right, Pamela. Well, thank you again. So so much. I am sending you all the love and all the good vibes on your journey and we'll have to talk again in the future. Great. I look forward to it. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes, and artwork, library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 408 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast.  If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.  I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine.  Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine.  And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.  For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad

I'm good i'm really really good actually i feel super rested recharged how you feeling today.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad you're feeling that way. I'm hoping that like comes over to me because I love energy. And so the more, the merrier.

Barry Conrad

I'm sending it to you right now through the computer. Take it, take it, take it.

Melanie Avalon

Normally this is my vibe, like 8 o'clock PM my time, but yeah, I'm a little bit on the struggle bus. But last night I went to a restaurant which was South African.

Barry Conrad

Wow. Where was it? What was it called? What kind of food? What was the situation like?

Melanie Avalon

It's called Yibo Beach House, spelled like H-A-U-S, I think, in Buckhead in Atlanta. I only realized it was South African because like half of the wines were, it was a lot of South African wines.  Which, do you like South African wine? Have we talked about this?

Barry Conrad

We haven't talked about this, but they, I was about to say they know we, I should say, because I'm South African, we know how to do wines. It's it's really, really easy to drink.  It's paired well with like meats, especially like Springbok, Budovos, Biltong, all that.

Melanie Avalon

That was a lot of words that I don't think I, what was the first one?

Barry Conrad

Springbok.

Melanie Avalon

spring, bok, buck, like a deer.

Barry Conrad

Like yeah, exactly. So spring book is

Melanie Avalon

ringed deer.

Barry Conrad

Yeah it's actually ends but we call it like for example like a rugby team is the spring box or would like to call them the book like the book.

Melanie Avalon

And it's deer, venison.

Barry Conrad

You can eat it yeah and it's it's honestly amazing like the springbok lamb shanks wow incredible.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, wait, but that would be lamb. Now I'm confused.

Barry Conrad

Like Springbok Shanks, I should say. Kind of like Springbok. I went to South Africa a couple of years ago on a trip, listeners, and we got to stay at the safari, and they fed us like Springbok Shanks, Boudevoirs, amazing chicken paired with ones.  Boudevoirs? Boudevoirs.  Can you try to say it? Boudevoirs? Almost, yeah. You got to roll the R.

Melanie Avalon

I can't do that. Can you do that? I've heard if you don't learn how to do it, you can't ever do it.

Barry Conrad

Maybe you can go Brouwars? It's not quite the same.

Melanie Avalon

I'm not saying it again. I'm not saying it. I'm tapping out. So what is that? That word I will not say.

Barry Conrad

So the boudevoirs, the word that you are tapping out of, it's sausage.  So African sausage, we have it on, you know, like people call the barbecue, like a barbecue, we call it a braai, B-R-A-A-I, and it's like a barbecue, but way better, and we have boudevoirs on the braai, it's the best sausage you'll ever have, it's amazing, not just saying it, we have to try it together.

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if that was on the menu, I should have looked at the menu more.

Barry Conrad

What did you have then? Just the wines?

Melanie Avalon

I just drank wine. So they had a lot of South African wines, but none of them were organic. And South African wines, because of the hotter climate, I'm assuming would be higher alcohol, higher sugar. So yeah, they had one organic wine and it was my favorite white varietal.  So I was a long day. I don't even know how to say it. Milan de Bourgogne from France. It was

Barry Conrad

Like a peanut, what kind of, what does it taste similar to, like a peanut grease you?

Melanie Avalon

It tastes like melon, honestly, which I love. It's really light, fruity, melony. Melony, not Melanie. Melony.  But and something I had before, which I'm dying to tell listeners about. I literally did not plan this, but perfect segue. I interviewed recently Zach Abbott. He is the founder of a company called Zebiotics. Have you heard of this company? I haven't told me. So he made the world's first genetically modified probiotic. So the probiotic is genetically engineered. And we had a whole side topic discussion about the like the misperception of GMOs. Like they're not necessarily bad. Like the concept of like genetically engineering something or modifying something. They modify this probiotic to create the enzyme which breaks down diacetaldehyde, the toxic byproduct of alcohol metabolism. Oh, wow. Yeah. So your liver is really good at breaking that down, but the stomach cannot doesn't really have that enzyme. So according to him, a lot of like the negative effects from drinking come from the diacetaldehyde that is in the stomach because there's no enzyme to break it down because it doesn't all make its way to the liver. So this probiotic is engineered to create that enzyme. So you take it before drinking. It's called Zebiotics. It's like in a little, it's a liquid in a little like shot. You take a shot of it before drinking and it breaks down that, that toxic byproduct. So it is amazing for, if you're drinking a lot or moderately.

Barry Conrad

We need that, Mel. We need to try that. I think that's for us.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I'm using it now, like on the regular. And now every time I go out, I take it before hand. I'm obsessed. It's like part of my protocol.

Barry Conrad

How long before you drink do you have to take the shot is it like a half an hour is like faster an hour?

Melanie Avalon

Like right before you start drinking, but it also lasts 24 hours, which is cool. And he said it produces more, like more enzyme than you could ever drink enough to, like it's enough to cover however much you're drinking, essentially. I'm noticing a difference. Like it really works. And I posted about it in my Facebook group and so many people commented saying that they've tried it and it really, they really noticed a difference.

Barry Conrad

So you feel, what do you feel when you have it compared to before when you weren't trying it?

Melanie Avalon

I just, well, I do so many other things in my like drinking protocol. So I don't really get intense hangover-y type symptoms ever.  Cause I'm like so intense with everything, but I just notice, so it's comparing it, I don't know. I drank a lot for new years.

Barry Conrad

like what

Melanie Avalon

will dry farm wines, but then they had like cheap champagne and I had some of that and it was like way too much. And I definitely noticed the next day, like not, I just would have felt that a lot more, I think, if I hadn't had that before.  So I highly recommend it. He also has one that I have not tried that turns some sugar into fiber. It like converts sugar into fiber. I have not tried that one yet.

Barry Conrad

like commercially where like people need these things because this is going to just help like your everyday life. I need to try these both of those.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, it's it's super cool. So if listeners are interested, I wonder if they ship to Australia.

Barry Conrad

Australia was about to ask.

Melanie Avalon

Probably not. But maybe. Actually, I don't know. I feel like with their regulations and stuff, we should check.

Barry Conrad

Does it come like refrigerated in the start of the year? Probably, I don't know if it would.

Melanie Avalon

it's not refrigerated, it's shelf stable. Yeah. But in any case, listeners, if they would like to try it, they can go to Melanie Avalon.com slash Z Biotics. So it's Z B I O T I C S. Use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off.  Definitely check that out. Literally, like I said, it is part of my protocol now, not every night because of the cost of it, but on nights that go out for sure.

Barry Conrad

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to jump on that train. It's super cool.

Melanie Avalon

Anything new in your life before we jump into topics?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I've I've actually been revisiting like a book that I have read before it's called atomic habits. Have you heard of that book?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, that's one of my favorite books. It's shocking how long that book was on the New York Times bestseller list. It just never left the list. It just stayed there.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. And listeners, if you don't know about this book, it's by James Clear. And it's basically about habits, but not just a generic way of explaining it. It's about small, consistent daily habits over time, rather than a big, dramatic one. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And making it easy and more identity based. So for example, rather than saying, I can't have that to eat. It's like, well, I'm a healthy person kind of a thing. So basically, creating more of a structure around your life. So you don't need the self control, basically making it hacking your habits in a way. And so I think it's super cool. Because, I mean, Mel, you and I talked about this a while ago, how, like, there's more freedom and structure. I really think that I've always lived that way. And this book is all about that.  And even if you were to tie it back to, like, even like intermittent fasting, it's the same sort of thing. Like the structure of having a fasting or eating window. And just remember the decision fatigue. And we're not making choices all day. So I think it's such a good book. I love it. It's a really, really good book for any time of year. So I highly recommend that. Listeners, please check it out, Atomic Habits by James Clear.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. I actually, I think that's the one that I, wait, is that the one that I cried at the end? Wait, have you finished it?

Barry Conrad

I've read it once before, but I'm going through it again, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Do you remember at the end, does he talk about mindfulness and stuff? Is that how it ends? Okay. Yeah. I cried. How are you consuming it? I usually...

Barry Conrad

Consuming having it with like a knife and fork no I usually I usually listen audiobook for nonfiction but this one I kind of wanted to sit down and read something because it was getting distracted a lot and I wanted to kind of block things out some reading it the paperback.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I listened to it and him reading the ending. I was crying. I was like, what am I doing?

Barry Conrad

What about the ending made you cry? Like, why, what do you think? That was probably.

Melanie Avalon

probably like 2018, it's probably like six or seven years ago, something about just how motivating it was. It was really inspiring.  Yeah, I love what you said about it's really great for something like working on habits surrounding fasting and things like that. It's funny, I actually thought about you last night because I was talking with one of the girls and we were talking about, because you just mentioned the freedom and structure concept, and we were talking about making plans. And I was talking about how I feel safe when there were plans. I need plans to feel in control of life and feel safe and feel good and have freedom. And she was saying that the idea of planning something is horrible. It makes her feel constricted and horrible and want to run away. And it's so interesting that people can have completely different feelings about that.

Barry Conrad

I'm with you. There's more freedom in that because you can always divert from the plan, but not having a plan is kind of like, Oh, what's going to happen?  Okay, let me zoom out for a second. I think in certain situations, not all situations, if you're hanging out with people on the day and you're kind of just having a day all day, like I'd go with the floor and whatnot. But if I'm scheduling a specific time or whatever, I'd love to just schedule that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, same. We were talking about the example of like, I love making future plans. Like I have, you know, my guests are scheduled out through 2026. I have like theater shows scheduled out to go to through like the whole year.  And she was saying that the idea of like making a plan to see a show in May is just like the worst, you know, like really, she does not like that concept. And I

Barry Conrad

That is really interesting. And that's actually so far in the future.  I don't think I'm that, I don't know if I'm that well versed in the planning, but I think, you know, maybe it's going to inspire me to do that more. Because sometimes I can see if something's so far in the future, I'm like, am I going to be around? And you kind of get like trepidation or fear about like, what if I'm going to miss out on something else? But sometimes it's good just to be, well, it is good just to be certain and just, you know, decisive and just plan it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's kind of like what you said. You don't have, you know, once the time comes, things can change.  But if I don't plan it, then, and it's something I want to do, then I don't know that I actually might be able to do it unless I put it down on my calendar. Yep.

Barry Conrad

I'd love to see your calendar. It's probably like so crazy, like just dates everywhere, writing everywhere, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Melanie Avalon

It makes me happy. It's my favorite thing. Okay. Shall we jump into some intermittent fasting related things?

Barry Conrad

Julian on Facebook says, I just recently started implementing black coffee with MCT oil in the morning during a fasted state. I usually also take seropeptase during that time as well.  Would it be fine to take both MCT oil and seropeptase simultaneously? I want to make sure the MCT oil didn't interfere with the seropeptase since it's helped my sinuses drastically.  Also, if I'm having black coffee with MCT oil, would I still be in the fasted state? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you. All right, Julian, thank you so much for your question. So it's a pretty simple answer.  Well, first of all, about being in the fastest state with the MCT oil, this is heavily debated as it has been for eons and eons. On this show, consistently, we do believe, well, actually, Barry, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Historically, we believe that having anything caloric, especially something like MCT oil, like fat, would, quote, break the fast, because you're taking in calories. People say that MCT oil doesn't break the fast because it's a type of fat that's immediately, essentially, shuttled to the liver for energy, and it supports the production of ketones. So people will say that it's supporting the fasted state because it's just creating more ketones and running on fat. I believe, though, you're taking in calories, it is a food, so I do not consider black coffee with MCT oil still being in the fastest state. I would see it as being in a state fed on MCT oil and still producing ketones like the fasted state, but not actually being fasted. What are your thoughts on that, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree. I mean, it has calories, so that technically it's going to break your fast. So, you know, if you're wanting to do, if you're someone that subscribes to like a modified fast approach, which some people say, because you want mental clarity or energy without spiking insulin too much, go ahead. But I personally, and I know that you feel the same way, it's not really the clean fast.  It's going to break your fast. Do you know what I mean? So I'm on that team for sure. I'd skip the MCT all and just, you know, just have it during the faster window. I mean, just, just have it during eating. We know, I should say, let's do that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and when I add MCT oil it actually for me would always make me hungrier when I would experiment with that I don't know. Have you experimented with adding MCT oil to your coffee ever?

Barry Conrad

You know, during the bulletproof craze, I've introduced butter and whatnot, but not MCT oil so much. Is it much different? Like the feeling or the taste or the effect, having a bit of butter?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it is. It is pretty different because the butter is a long chain triglyceride. So it's like a saturated fat that has to be broken down, digested, you know, turned into energy. And then like I was saying before, MCT oil, especially there's like, there's the C8 and the C10 version, and I would always get the C8 version, which is even quicker in how it is metabolized and turned into ketones. So it does provide like much faster energy.  The taste is different because butter has like a buttery taste, MCT oil tastes. I love the way it tastes. I actually used to put in my food sometimes. It's a very neutral taste.

Barry Conrad

your food.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah when i was doing like low carb for a while i would just add a lot of empty oil so i feel like it really makes the food i don't know i love it i love the taste of it.

Barry Conrad

Is this kind of like when you would have the rotisserie chicken that phase? Like when you put the amputee over that or not really?

Melanie Avalon

Not that they actually back then I was doing a lot of coconut oil, which has MCTs in it, but it's primarily that that's a misconception. People think coconut oil is like all MCTs. It's not. It's like a small, a little bit of it is MCTs, but the majority of it is actually lauric acid.  A majority of it is lauric acid, which is a long chain fatty acid. No, this was after, after that phase. But when I would do like, I just went through a stint where I was doing like low carb, quote, high fat, but it was high MCT oil fat. I actually think that's a good hack for people if what they're doing isn't working and they're doing low carb, but they still want to do low carb and they don't want to try like a carb approach. I think switching out all your fats for MCT oil or even just like removing your fats and just adding a little bit of MCT oil can actually be a way to try to break a plateau or get weight loss going again.

Barry Conrad

Right. Julian, if you're in doubt, the rule of thumb, the best way to approach it is black coffee, water, black tea.  If you're having to flirt with anything else, if it has calories, it's going to break your fast. Just keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

I agree with you Barry so much like people stress a lot about all the different things to like the perfect, you know, fasting supporting drink or supplement or do you want to add amino acids? Do you want to add these different pre-workout things and really friends like coffee and tea are just like the work so well.  Yeah, we love peak tea around here. They actually have a fasting tea that they made in collaboration with Dr. Jason Fung. The bergamot one is just pure organic black tea. And so again, Dr. Jason Fung helped formulate that to help support fasting. So listeners can actually get 10% off when you go to peaklife.com slash IF podcast, that's P-I-Q-U-E-L-I-F-E.com slash IF podcast. That's on the tea front. And then hopefully we're recording a little bit in advance, but hopefully by the time this comes out, my glow coffee will be hopefully on its way. So plug for that. We're creating that to be the highest CGA content coffee possible and CGA is the antioxidant, which is one of the main antioxidants that gives coffee all of its health benefits. So we specifically searched and sought out beans that are high naturally in CGA. And then we roast them, especially to be high in CGA. And then we third party lab test the coffee to make sure it's free of toxins and mold and pesticides and all the things. And actually over the holidays, Barry, I wish you could have been there. This was so fun. We did a blind taste test with like six of my friends and we tasted it against two other coffee brands that are similar to see what people liked the most. I was happy with the results. We tasted three coffees. It was neck and neck with one of them for being the crowd favorite. And then the other one people did not like as much.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Is there like a profile of coffee that you like?

Barry Conrad

Not too bitter, but I don't love too light. It's got to still give me that kick. Like I love actually tasting the coffee. So somewhere probably profile wise, mid to strong, I would say.  Yeah. I need to try some of it when it comes out when it's ready. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon

or like wrapping up right now, like the art and yes. And I love the way it tastes.  It's lighter to medium. It does have like some fruity notes and acidity to it, but it does have like a nutty flavorful finish as well. It tastes really good. It was half of the people's favorite out of all the three.

Barry Conrad

It's so exciting, I can't wait to try it.

Melanie Avalon

I'm excited too. You and I were talking offline, just while we're talking about drinks and pre-workouts breaking the fast.  What did you get asked recently from somebody about a drink breaking the fast?

Barry Conrad

somebody asked me the other day, they were like, if I drink this, I'm not going to say the brand, this zero sugar energy drink, will that break my fast? Because, bro, it's like, it's energy. So, and it has no sugar. So, surely, that'll be fine.  I'm like, bro, it's not fine. It's going to break too fast.  It has calories. It's besides the point. Do you get asked that?

Melanie Avalon

Yes. And there's just so many, I like shutter when I look at those drinks, like all the ingredients in them and things.  Like you could just get, like I was saying before, you could get health benefits and support your metabolism and all the things with, you know, a really good organic tea or coffee. That'll do it.

Barry Conrad

So you need, just get that glow. Get it. Yep. So we have a question from Jill and she asked, how to incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so Jill, I'm so, I'm actually surprised in the seven years or so that I've done this podcast that I don't think we've been asked this. And what's interesting about it, Well, Barry, have you had a colonoscopy?

Barry Conrad

This is very tasty conversation and I have not yet, but I actually am totally keen to try one because I heard it has so many benefits, right? Clearing out your system.

Melanie Avalon

Well, so Australia, they must have different. So like here in the US, I think you like are supposed to get one. Okay. So actually I just checked the rules. I guess I thought, I thought it was like in your thirties that you were supposed to get one in the US, but in the US it's, they recommend at 45.  And then earlier, if you have a family history of colorectal cancer. Yeah. So I've actually had three, three already. Yeah. That's why I have so many thoughts. That's about this question.

Barry Conrad

I, Melanie, I have not had one, I can safely say, but I definitely, even though I did confuse it with something else before, it's very important to get one because of, especially have family history, and I am due to get one, so.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, Barry was confusing it with colonics, which I love colonics do not get me started on colonics.  We actually have talked about those on the show, but for the colonoscopy, so I didn't ever have it.  I didn't have it for like, I don't have a genetic risk for cancer or anything.  I just had it because of my, because of my anemia, actually they were trying to see, which I don't have anymore, but they were trying to see if I had internal bleeding or something like that.  So the prep for it, because she says, how do you incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep, you actually drink, it's, it's not fun.  You have to, I'm like having flashbacks.  You have to drink this like liquid laxative, like we're talking like a gallon of it.  Like it is so much that you have to drink.  I think it changes the different times I've done it, but I started an amount of time before you stop eating and then you just start drinking and drinking this stuff.  Yeah.  It's funny though.  This is what's funny about it.  So one of the times I did it, I was actually in the hospital for anemia.  So I didn't have the, I wasn't able to kind of like make it my own.  Like if I, cause when I did it at a later time, they just gave me the powder to make the drink and then you could like flavor it with the flavors they gave you.  But I wanted to make it as like clean as possible.  So I didn't do that, which I will circle back to you about how to incorporate fasting.  But when I was in the hospital, I had to just drink, they already pre-mixed it.  I had to drink it.  It had like, we were talking earlier about flavors and stuff.  It had all this like horrible stuff in it, like probably Stevia sweetened.  I hadn't had anything like flavored and fake tasting in forever that literally when I started drinking it, I was like, this tastes amazing.  Cause it tastes like candy cause I hadn't had like, you know, I hadn't had like that fake flavor-y stuff in years.  I was like, this is great.  It's like drinking Pez.  Do they have Pez in Australia?

Barry Conrad

We don't have Pez. What is that similar to? Is it like a sugary drink? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

And no, no, no, it's like, it's like Pez dispensers, like these little like, it's like all the different, they're like different cartoon characters and then they dispense these little like sugar tablets that are flavored.

Barry Conrad

I feel like I feel like I can see what you're talking about and that's that's pretty delicious but drinking it. Yeah, I can see that.

Melanie Avalon

it literally tastes like that. But then by the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like horrible.  I can't not drink another sip. But in any case, so my reframe for colonoscopy prep as a expert colonoscopy undergoer is it is a nice chance to do an extended fast because you do have to stop eating a certain amount of time before the surgery. It's not, I said surgery before the procedure. You have to be drinking this stuff, which even though it's, if you do like the flavored stuff, it does quote break the fast, but it isn't any calories. So you're not taking in any calories and then you like clean everything out. And then if you try to think if I like did not eat that, basically I was able to incorporate it and have a, an extended fast. All right, because the night before I didn't eat the night before cause I was doing the prep. So it was kind of a nice way to get in like a lot longer fasting hours and you actually can drink bone broth. So the most recent time I did it, I drank bone broth. So that actually was like food. So that time I kind of saw it as like an extended fast with a bone broth fast added on or like my normal fasting with like a bone broth fast. If you have to do a colonoscopy prep, I would try to make the actual stuff that you drink as benign as possible. So if you can get the version, cause it's usually covered by insurance, you can get a version where you're flavoring it yourself. Then you can just not use those flavor packets and you can flavor it with more helpful options. So I went to the store and I bought cause what it comes with is like is flavored with artificial sweeteners that are not good and you know, stuff you don't want. So I would, I went and found these like stevia flavored things at the store, which were a little bit more benign to flavor it. So I would recommend doing that. And then if you actually want to have food as well, you can do bone broth. So you can see it as like a way to have a bone broth thing. And then you have the procedure, which is actually, you know, you're under anesthesia. So it's quick from your perception.

Barry Conrad

You had the bone broth and you're just awake in two seconds.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you'll have to report back, Mary, if you do this.

Barry Conrad

So clear, non-caloric liquids, what I'm hearing is non-caloric liquids like water, bone broth, if allowed by your doctor, if they prescribe that, make sure you're hydrated beforehand, but also adjusting your fasting ahead of time. How did you approach your fasting maybe the day, two days beforehand?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I did completely normal up until the day before. And then the day before was the day where I had to start the prep.  So that's where I got in my longer fast because normally I would have eaten that night but I didn't I for the first two I didn't have anything caloric I just had those drinks and then the third time I did it I had bone broth. Yeah, so basically the day before is where I didn't have a one meal a day meal like I normally do so I got in a longer fasting period of time and then had the procedure the next day and then you can eat well, I don't know if they recommend like go I think they do recommend like going slow but I'm so used to that's one thing I've noticed like I'm so used to fasting during the day and then eating a massive meal at night that I don't have to make any special like adjustment I don't need to like ease into my big meal again I'm like good to go. Yeah, you're good to go. Yeah, but I've been doing one meal a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, it's the same thing where doctors always say ease into it after any kind of a surgery or procedure, but I think the great thing about fasting is you already are having that long time of not eating, so your body's really primed for that. Just go back to your eating. You don't have to try to ease into having three gentle meals or five gentle meals, you know what I mean? So that's great.  There's another benefit of IF.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, actually, and similar with like when I get the thing, you confused it with a colonic. Sometimes if I go to a new place, they'll give you all the material where they're like, you know, ease into foods after I'm like, I'm good. Like, like, I am totally good. I literally, I don't ever need it.  I think even if I did like, I mean, I haven't, but I think even if I did like a five day extended fast, I literally probably could just like feast after and be fine. I'm not saying to do that. Ease in if you need to.

Barry Conrad

We're not endorsing, but we're just saying if you're used to that, then you know what you do you.

Melanie Avalon

We're just being real. So yeah, but on the flip side of not eating, speaking of food, Barry, you have a restaurant to explore?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant to explore and let me tell you this is one that I hunted down because one of my favorite cuisines is Greek food and the restaurant is called The Bright Star. The Bright Star is actually based in Alabama and it's the oldest continuously operating restaurant in Alabama. It started as this 25-cafe catering to local workers and it's grown into this 330-seat iconic landmark. It survived the Great Depression, stayed open to serve the community through that time.  Oh, wow. Yeah, it was featured in the 100 dishes to eat in Alabama before you die. Yes!

Melanie Avalon

We love that.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and it's a family run establishment, so it's got lots of history. I love that it wasn't featured in that hundred dishes to eat in Alabama for you because I'm all about that final meals and whatnot.  So should we dive in? Let's do it. Should we look at the menu?

Melanie Avalon

And first of all, I have to say I love places with like I love finding restaurants with history that have been around for so long. That's why for the first time we did this, I picked one that was like one of the oldest restaurants in America.  I just it's so cool to think I just love like history of places. It's cool to think about. So for listeners, every episode we like to feature a cool restaurant that we found and say what we would order from the menu in our breaking of our fast because fasting one of the awesome things about fasting is the feasting on the other side.

Barry Conrad

Let's go to the dinner section and then, so we'll go look at the dinner section after choosing all of our food, then there's wine and beer and cocktail. So I think after dessert, even we might have to even check that out a drink of some sort, you're down.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. Well, this menu is massive. So, and they have a quick menu. I wonder what that's. Okay. You know, it's a massive menu when they start with their quote quick menu and the quick menu is, is larger than most menus. Very confusing.  I'm confused. I'm confused. So what would you get for appetizer? Oh my gosh. There's so many things.

Barry Conrad

So I'm going down right now. Let me have a look. I'm gonna go for the appetizer.

Melanie Avalon

We have appetizers and then we have appetizer as entree.

Barry Conrad

When I saw that initially, I thought of, it's not the same thing, but when you said, I'll have my mains for dessert. But one thing that jumped out of me straight away was remember how I said I hadn't had. There's one thing on here, Mel, that I've told you that I haven't had before and you were really shocked. Can you guess what it is?  It begins with an S, it's two words.

Melanie Avalon

I mean is it shrimp related? No because you like shrimp. Yeah. What was the shellfish that you... Oh right, shrimp cocktail.

Barry Conrad

I've never had a shrimp cocktail listeners ever I love shrimp I eat it normally but I just assume cocktail is not really a thing that you typically get in Australia at restaurants so that's definitely going to be on my starter situation.  What is spag spag spag it sounds like is that spaghetti because we called spat like a spag bowl like a spaghetti bowl here in Australia.

Melanie Avalon

Really? It looks like it's an animal.

Barry Conrad

a spag.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's definitely, okay, Chad GPT says it's a small particle aerosol generator. I don't think it's that. Oh yeah, you're right. They're saying spaghetti.

Barry Conrad

Slickest bag, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Hm, I've never heard it called that. Interesting.

Barry Conrad

Okay, so I'm going to tell you my status first. I have a few. I'm going to do the shrimp cocktail, the entree baked mushrooms, and the entree bowl gumbo because I love gumbo. I tried it in New Orleans and it was game changing. So I'd love to try a Greek styled version. So that's my starters plural. What would you have?

Melanie Avalon

I would probably, I would maybe have lobster and crab. Oh my goodness. I can have so many things.  Lobster and crab and salmon and shrimp. What is snap throat? Oh, snapper throat. Maybe they seem to like snapper here. I think I would get lobster, crab, shrimp, salmon. Let's just get all of it.

Barry Conrad

All of it. I feel like when we find the listeners, when we finally eat together, we probably need two tables put together because we want to have like taste little bits of everything, I reckon.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'd be down. I would be down. What would you get as your main thing?

Barry Conrad

I would get the lobster and we get the fried chicken I love fried chicken with the passion and I love lobster as well so both of those for the manes for me.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like apparently snapper is their thing. I feel like I need to get snapper. I'm a little bit curious though about the mercury levels and snapper. So I probably wouldn't get the snapper.  Now that I say that I probably look it up and see if I could find mercury levels in it. But from my memory, I don't think it's I don't think it's low.

Barry Conrad

I forgot to add that one of the signature dishes is the Greek style snapper.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So you might be missing out. I don't think, yeah, I would want it, but I don't think I would get it because of the mercury. So I probably get filet mignon. Yes.

Barry Conrad

Okay, and for dessert, are you going to get just the one or are you going to get another one?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, right. I think because I got so many appetizers that I can just have the filet. Oh, they have a veal steak. Hmm. I changed my mind. I'm like, I'm gonna get the veal steak.

Barry Conrad

Big, it's a big menu. I'm very impressed this place.

Melanie Avalon

I am too. And then they have a ton of dessert, what would you get for dessert?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I'm looking at it now.

Melanie Avalon

Can you get the birthday pie so I can look at it?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I've got a few choices. I'm going to I'm going to do the because you know, I love chocolate. It's my favorite.  I'm going to do the whole chocolate pie, the peanut butter slice with vanilla ice cream on the side, and then the birthday cake. I'll order as well, but I'm not going to have all of it. I'll just have it for you to a look at and for me to like taste. How's that?

Melanie Avalon

perfect. And I would just watch and get some more, probably some more salmon, maybe probably whatever appetizer, like the best out of the salmon shrimp lobster, grab more of whatever I liked the most.

Barry Conrad

What about a drink? A beverage? What would you like to have? There's wine there, there's beer there, there's cocktails. I'm eyeing the cocktails, just FYI.

Melanie Avalon

I don't know I'd have to look I don't know if there's a wine I'd have to look up all the wines and there's a lot and I'm not sure if there are any that are organic low alcohol European so yeah what would you get?

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, you know, I love a margarita meal, so I'm going to go for their blueberry lemonade margarita. Something different.  I usually get a spicy, but I'm all about trying different margaritas, so that's my choice.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Oh wait, actually they have lovey bunches. I think that's actually, wait, oh my goodness, wait a minute. Actually, they have one of my favorite organic wines.  It's not European. It's, I'm assuming it's a typo on their website because it says love you bumches, but I think it's, if it's love you bunches, if that's supposed to be an N, that I love that wine. It doesn't say which a varietal it is, but they have a rosé that's organic, low alcohol. They also have a red. It's by Staltman Vineyards. Yeah, I really love them. They have really nice organic practices as well. And they're like light, low alcohol.  Oh, I'm happy. Yay. Okay. Awesome.

Barry Conrad

I don't think we've had one in our very few restaurants we've done so far where you've pointed out like a wine that's organic, so that's pretty good. That's awesome. Thanks, Brightstar.

Melanie Avalon

I haven't looked at the wine list before this. Going forward, I will for sure. Well, a shout out again to the Bright Star Restaurant.

Barry Conrad

Shout out to Bart star when we're in Alabama next we'll have to check you out we have to make a list of all these restaurants by the way by the end of at the end of each year and sort of like okay when when we're going to be there let's just go through list and just do a tour of all the places.

Melanie Avalon

Sounds like a plan in my dream mind.

Barry Conrad

I don't think you're going to do that because you want to travel for a day.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you can do it. I'll watch. I'll come to one of them.

Barry Conrad

That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon

Shall we answer one more question? Let's do it. Jennifer would like to know, if you could only have one biohack in your life, what would it be?

Barry Conrad

Okay, that's that is a tough one. But for me, I would probably say real life therapy for me, because the benefits next level, you know, it boosts my collagen and production, which means smoother, firmer skin for me, which is great for what I do. So I'm not going to be mad at that.  It's it's great for also even more importantly, recovery muscle recovery, because I work out a lot. I work out at least three times a week doing resistance training. So that's usually beneficial for me. So red light therapy has already helped. I've found I've got a device or two devices actually that I use already and that has made a difference. So use that on the daily. It also helps with inflammation and pain and even with hair growth. And you know, it's not just about looking good for me. It's about feeling great. And I definitely feel like even having that Melanie, how you say you have the ambient sort of red light on while you're working away that I feel the same way. Like I just have it like playing. It only goes for 10 minutes at a time though. So I have to like time it and then put it on again. But that's part of my daily. I love it. That's probably the one hack that I would choose so far. Watch the space is probably going to be more to come. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's a really good choice. That's definitely in my, my running. This question is so hard and I'm so glad I don't ever have to actually do this. Like just picking one would be so I would be so hard. So thinking about it, I'm obsessed with my cryotherapy, but if I could only have one, then I could, I could like not go to cryotherapy every day and just do like a cold shower.  Am I allowed to like, like tweak this? So like, basically I could, I could get it, you know, without the actual biohack form, which is like going into a cold chamber, but I would really miss it. Red light, that's really up there. The one thing that I like blue light walking glasses at night, but it's like, okay, well then I could just force myself to not look at screens at night. But one of the ones where like I travel and I just, it's really hard to not have that is my daily infrared sauna session. It's so profound the way it makes me feel. And I feel you go in, it feels so good and relaxing. You sweat, you sweat out all these toxins and you just feel cleansed on an internal cellular level after it. And when I travel, I'm like, Oh, I needed sauna sessions. So bad. So, and that's not something where I can, I guess you could sweat by like working out of the gym, but this I don't, I'm not going to do that. So it would be my sunlight in infrared sauna and for listeners. So I have the solo unit, which is where you lay down inside of it and your head is outside of it. So you can like do your work while you're in it or read or something like that. But they also have cabin units as well. Literally one of my favorite things in my entire life. And if you tell them I sent you Melanie Avalon, they'll give you a major discount. So sunlight in infrared sauna is my choice.

Barry Conrad

I've only done one infrared sauna before and that was last year at like a like a health and fitness joint nearby and it was it was amazing like it's different to it's so different to a regular like steam sauna like because you do feel like it's from the inside out and you do feel refreshed and you're sweating you know your butt off as well so it's it's quite a unique experience so I can see why you would go for that I actually forgot about that that's that's a really good one

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Did you feel like you wanted to get one of your own integrated into your life daily?

Barry Conrad

I did actually feel that and then I just and I made a note to like do it again and I just haven't but I think it would definitely be really relaxing too because I like I actually like the feeling of being hot when it's for a purpose I don't like feeling hot when I'm just you know at home that's why I like being cold just like you but it's a really it's a really good feeling isn't it?

Melanie Avalon

Wait, that is so true. So I do not like being hot.  The only time is when I'm in a sauna because it's like a controlled environment for a purpose. You're, you're not sweating over yourself because you're like, it's, I don't like, I don't like sweating with clothes on. It's like, I don't like textures of that.

Barry Conrad

In the gym, you do that, though, so...

Melanie Avalon

Right, but I don't go to the gym. You don't do the gym, yeah. I don't like it.  I'm thinking about it right now. It feels so disgusting. I think I'm like texture, but I don't like the texture of certain things on my body. I'm very sensitive to that.

Barry Conrad

What do you mean? Like, give me an example.

Melanie Avalon

like clothing and like sweat and not about it.

Barry Conrad

Do you like black, you know those black dresses that you wear to these awesome letouts, does that count?

Melanie Avalon

So dresses, I don't like pants because I don't like all that constrictive clothing on my body. So dresses are great because they're very flowy.  They're maybe tight at top, but you know, or maybe they could be, they're not as constrictive. I could not be a man and wear pants all the time.

Barry Conrad

You know, now that you mentioned, I've actually never seen you wear pants in like in any post ever. Like, that's such a good point. Like, never seen you wear jeans, pants. Do you wear jeans?

Melanie Avalon

I do not like jeans. The last time I wore jeans was, so every year I post my annual Christmas tree getting video.  One of the times I went, I was like, I'm gonna dress up like rustic to get this Christmas tree. So I wore jeans.

Barry Conrad

I actually can't picture it now. I actually can't picture you in like jeans and boots. I mean, jeans. Yeah. That's so interesting. Wow. There you go.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you're missing out Barry with the dresses.

Barry Conrad

Well, I feel it could be too breezy for me. I mean, it's, yeah, let's not keep going down that path. I'm just going to pass now.

Melanie Avalon

So, at any point, that's why I love the sauna because it's like you sweat and like this sweat immediately is, you know, you're naked, it's like whisked away onto towels. And then you're like out, you shower, it's all contained.

Barry Conrad

How many showers do you have a day like two three.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's such a good question. It depends how many sauna sessions I do in a day. How many do you do in a day? Well, I always do at least one long one, but sometimes I do two, sometimes I do three.  I like taking sauna naps. That's a hack. That's a good biohack. So you can sleep. Yeah, because then you literally sleep and get a cardiovascular workout at the same time. Like what?

Barry Conrad

So cool. I'm trying to picture this device. I need to... Is this... Is it like a chamber? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

It's like a dome. So again, so Sunline makes cabin units like the stereotypical cabin units, but they make this solo unit. It's like a dome that you slide into.

Barry Conrad

Wow, that sounds awesome, actually.

Melanie Avalon

So yeah, I like, I've like set it up with my hulk and trap. So I put it on top of a twin bed, a twin bed frame that I got on Amazon, like a metal twin bed frame. So it's on top of that. So then I can store stuff underneath it.  I got a little arm thing that I attached to it that holds my iPhone above my head to do like work. And then I got a standup fan. So I put a fan on my face. So then I don't even feel that hot cause I have the fan on my face.  And if you want to take a nap, if you're like really exhausted, you can take a nap in there and you wake up and it's like you worked out. That's.

Barry Conrad

wild. You never told me this before until now in terms of the whole setup. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's really cool. So to answer your question, I take a shower in the morning and then however many sauna sessions, I take a shower after every one of those.  So the most hours I take would be four, I guess, in a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I love showers.

Melanie Avalon

Do you end with a cold blast?

Barry Conrad

You know what? I've definitely started introducing that more because it's kind of my way of doing the cryotherapy, but it's not really. It's just more cold water therapy. Because cryo, from what I understand, is freezing. Freezing, freezing, freezing. But it definitely refreshes me doing it.  I had a cold water shower today before doing the podcast after the gym. It wakes you up. Yeah. Didn't you hear it? I'm peppy. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

So awesome. Okay. Well, Jennifer, thank you for the question and thank you everybody else for your questions. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ipodcast.com and can go to ipodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get all of the stuff that we like at ipodcast.com slash stuff we like. Definitely follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is okay. Ready? Barry underscore Conrad, right? You got it. Yes. And on Instagram, our show is IF Podcast. So yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

I hope you all have an awesome day and something really great to break your fast and we'll talk to you next time.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

See you later!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye.  Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.  If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.  See you next week!

Welcome to Episode 398 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS:

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LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets, electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. For a limited time, LMNT Chocolate Medley returns, featuring Chocolate Mint, Chocolate Chai, and Chocolate Raspberry. Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast.

STUFF WE LIKE: 

Visit ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike for all the stuff we like!

STUDIES:

Fasting's effects on stem cells linked to increased cancer risk (link)

Short-term post-fast refeeding enhances intestinal stemness via polyamines (link)

OTHER LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

Melanie Avalon

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels.

Melanie Avalon

For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com.

Melanie Avalon

We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome.

Melanie Avalon

This is episode number 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing well. How are you? I am good. I have had an epiphany about a product I want to make.

Melanie Avalon

Can I like pitch you it? Okay. So you know how we talk about sleeping and how I love sleeping cool with like cooling mattresses and air temperature down and all the things? Yes. So what if I make like a stuffed animal that you sleep with that is filled with like a gel or a water and you keep it in the freezer.

Melanie Avalon

And so then at night, you pull it out of the freezer and you snuggle with it and it keeps you cold. So cute. I've been snuggling with like those like cold packs and realizing how effective they are. And I was like, Oh, this should be like a stuffed animal.

Vanessa Spina

That would be really cute. Have you checked if they have that anywhere? Like, it's got to be a thing. But probably for heat ones, maybe they have them for heat ones, but not for cold ones.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'm getting flashbacks when we were little. We had the boo boo bunny. Did you have a boo boo bunny?

Vanessa Spina

No, but you literally are Elsa, like you are it's crazy. Like who cuddles with an ice block?

Melanie Avalon

Listeners friends, let me know if this is something you want and I will I will make one. This is hilarious. What's new in your life?

Vanessa Spina

Things are going well, you know, overall, just like juggling all the things, the family, the work, the fasting, the not-so-fasting. I've been... The not-so-fasting? Yeah, like I've been revisiting, you know, I probably mentioned it a few different times.

Vanessa Spina

I've been trying different things, you know, I told you I had recently added in this morning meal, like at 10 a.m. before my workouts. And now I'm starting to learn about how to strategically use carbs before workouts and protein.

Vanessa Spina

And I had the most brilliant guest I think I've ever had on the podcast, Dr. Stacey Sims.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, which we have a question about her later, so.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, I saw that, which was amazing timing, but I interviewed her and she's just so incredible because she is such an expert when it comes to women's physiology and especially women who are active or athletic.

Vanessa Spina

And she really talks about how she had this viral TED talk where it was women are not small men. People, a lot of listeners have probably heard that before, but maybe they knew it was her. They didn't know it was actually from her.

Vanessa Spina

And so she talks about how a lot of the research that's done on things like intermittent fasting and fasted workouts and, you know, protein timing, meal distribution, all this stuff, it's always for the majority of the time done on men.

Vanessa Spina

And so she looks at the research that's specifically done on women and also how things affect our brains and also our ability to recover. And it's just so specific. She just has a very specific and incredible amount of knowledge.

Vanessa Spina

So it was really interesting to interview her and talk to her because I think things are different if someone is metabolically unhealthy. And I kind of told her, this is, look, this is my journey. I'm not an athlete.

Vanessa Spina

Like I tried out for sports in high school. I did not make the teams. Like I was an overweight teen. I was not fit. Like I would get super red if I tried to run a mile or anything like that. I was usually like the one last picked for team sports and stuff like that.

Vanessa Spina

So I became athletic now as an adult, but as a kid, I was not that. And I was someone who became, you know, metabolically unfit, very metabolically inflexible and obese. You know, I was like 38% body fat.

Vanessa Spina

So I told her before we started recording, like, I'm not an athlete. This is my story. I use intermittent fasting and keto and all these things to help me when I was in that really metabolically unfit place.

Vanessa Spina

And now over the years I've started doing resistance training. I started getting energy back as I lost fat mass through keto and intermittent fasting and these different tools and strategies where now I'm this active person and I am building all this muscle and I, and now I have to revisit my strategies like do these things still work for someone who's now metabolically fit and who's very active compared to older version of Vanessa who was unfit and obese.

Vanessa Spina

Right. So it's really interesting because she does say that these things have a place like intermittent fasting has a place for women who have PCOS. As you know, the research on that is amazing for women who have issues with things like PCOS and obesity, they have their place there.

Vanessa Spina

What she doesn't like is when they're applied to the fitness space and women's active women and women who are athletes because there she finds there's more a risk of under fueling and not recovering well.

Vanessa Spina

Whereas men who are athletes and athletic, they can sort of get away with some of those strategies even when they're athletic, but women not as much. And so she has this very specific knowledge that has been really interesting.

Vanessa Spina

And I think anyone who's, you know, completely if you completely recompose your body and completely transform your metabolic health, where you're a new person and your activity levels are completely different, you may need to revisit your strategies, you know?

Vanessa Spina

And so now I'm finding things that are like, wow, I'm really fired up about all these things that are now helping me take things to the next level athletically where these other tools really helped me when I was in a different place.

Vanessa Spina

So it's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness, I have questions and thoughts. This is actually just a random question. Have you ever thought about doing a TED Talk?

Vanessa Spina

No, I don't think I really have.

Melanie Avalon

I just think about it because I feel like for so many people it's how they get their initial massive audience. Like Cynthia had a TED Talk. I just feel like it's like a thing to do that really gets you out there with a message.

Melanie Avalon

If you have a particular specific message, it's interesting. I would have thought that you would have thought of it. I don't know. I felt like it was something that sounds like a Vanessa thing, like doing a TED Talk.

Melanie Avalon

Like would you want to? It was like given to you like an invitation.

Vanessa Spina

I don't know. It kind of scares me. I think I would need to get to a point in my career where I had a specific amount of knowledge, and I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I'm still refining things, but I have a specific amount of knowledge that only I have.

Vanessa Spina

Maybe you just need a message that you're really passionate about sharing. I definitely have that. I think there's just a lot of pressure. I had two friends who did TED Talks, Darryl Edwards and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

Vanessa Spina

When Gabrielle was preparing, she was rehearsing with me. I just felt so nervous for both of them when they were doing it. I knew they were both going to absolutely crush it, and they both completely did.

Vanessa Spina

But I remember the feeling of seeing them go through the process. It was making me nervous because it's a lot of pressure, stepping on stage and delivering this perfect 10, 12-minute pitch. But I don't know.

Vanessa Spina

It maybe would be worth thinking about. What's interesting too is a lot of people, I think, maybe Cynthia, maybe I'm wrong about this. It seems like certain people that I know, I think maybe Cynthia, maybe Dr.

Vanessa Spina

Stacy Sims, they did their TED Talk, and then they started really building a huge following partly because of the virality of that. That elevated all the work that they had been doing over the years.

Vanessa Spina

Maybe I could be totally wrong because I actually don't fully know. This is just what I'm inferring. Whereas other people, and then once they do the TED Talk, they get a book deal and they get multiple book deals and they build this massive community.

Vanessa Spina

But then there's other people who build up their communities in other ways, either with a book first or with a podcast or with an Instagram or whatever, and then they do a TED Talk later. That was more Gabrielle.

Vanessa Spina

She already had built up this huge audience and stuff, and then she was like, I need to do a TED Talk, which just took her message to the next level and her following a community to the next level. Yeah, it's really interesting on when is the best time to do it as well.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really intrigued by it. And now I'm thinking back through all the people I know who have done TED Talks. And I know some of them have, I know I had like a long call with somebody who had done TED Talk and he said it was like the most stressful thing, like the vibes of what you were just saying.

Melanie Avalon

And I remember being like, Oh, okay. But then I've talked to people who are like, Oh, you should totally do one. So any case, a huge question I have about Stacy, and it actually relates to the study a little bit.

Melanie Avalon

It relates to an idea I have about the study we're going to discuss. But you mentioned that she said one of her main concerns is under fueling while fasting. So are, I don't know if this came up specifically, but are the issues from the fasting or are they from fasting if you're an athlete under fueling?

Melanie Avalon

Like is it like required to have the under fueling piece as well?

Vanessa Spina

It's that the, it's that the fasting, one aspect of it is that the intermittent fasting leads to under fueling because especially for athletes, the energy demand, depending on the athlete as well is so high that you can't really, you can't really cut out that fast and that, that eating time.

Vanessa Spina

And for her, it's the ones who like skipped the morning meal or like really push to extend their fasting window late into the day, she thinks it's really not ideal for athletes because of certain hormonal things.

Vanessa Spina

And so one of her things is like, if you're going to do resistance training, you just need 15 grams of protein before resistance training. And this is like a small amount of amino acids that basically signals to your hypothalamus that there's fuel on board and amino acids on board.

Vanessa Spina

And it also helps get into the state physiologically post exercise to recover, which is really interesting. So she has a lot of research showing that specifically in women, one of the ways that we're different.

Vanessa Spina

She also talks about cycle specific things. So things happen around women's cycles. She also talks about really interestingly how women have more oxidative fibers. So we're actually more metabolically flexible than men.

Vanessa Spina

Whereas men don't have as many oxidative fibers. So they have to do some of these strategies like fasting until midday or later to become as metabolically flexible as women. So I was like, that's really cool because usually when you compare women's physiology to men's, it's usually some kind of disadvantage, but this is one area where we actually have an advantage.

Vanessa Spina

It's kind of like.

Melanie Avalon

People debate, I mean, I have read multiple times that women are better fat burners than men. I don't know, but I think there's this idea that we're not as good at fat burners because it seems like dieting and everything comes much easier to men.

Melanie Avalon

But I'm pretty sure from like just a physiological perspective, like we burn more fat when we're exercising, we more easily tap into fat. It's actually all in our advantage. Well, okay, I'll tell you, so this is how it relates to the study we were gonna discuss.

Melanie Avalon

So this study was actually sent to me by my friend James Clement, shout out to James. I love James, he wrote a book called The Switch. I was just thinking about, was The Switch about switching into fat burning.

Melanie Avalon

It's about the switch between A and BK and mTOR specifically is what it's referring to.

Vanessa Spina

Oh, not the metabolic switch!

Melanie Avalon

It probably is on a grander scale, but I think specifically it's been forever since I've read it. I think specifically it's talking more about that. I should revisit that and actually check that.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I'm interested.

Melanie Avalon

In any case, so this study is called Short-Term Post-Fast Refeeding Enhances Intestinal Stemness via Polyaminines, August 2024. And he actually sent me an article about it. The title of the article is Fastings Effects on Stem Cells Linked to Increased Cancer Risk.

Melanie Avalon

So this was a rodent study, but it was really interesting because basically the researchers, they had, prior to this, they had done studies on intestinal stem cells. So they actually found in 2018 that 24-hour fasts could boost the regeneration of intestinal stem cells, which tends to go down with age.

Melanie Avalon

So that's super awesome. And their new study actually looked at the effects of the refeeding process after that fasting on intestinal stem cells. And again, this was specifically in rodents, but what they found was actually an increased cancer risk after the refeeding period.

Melanie Avalon

And the way that it was set up, so they actually had three groups. So there was one group that just fasted for 24 hours, another group that fasted for 24 hours, and then they ate whatever they wanted for a 24-hour refeeding period.

Melanie Avalon

And then just a normal control group, a normal control group that ate just normally throughout the study. And the mechanisms that they proposed for why there was an increased cancer risk, just specifically in the group after the refeeding period, was likely due to high levels of mTOR Complex 1, which we talked about mTOR a lot on a show.

Melanie Avalon

They found that it increased protein synthesis via polyamine metabolism in that refeeding process. And so their conclusions from that was that when the fasting and the refeeding cycle that you needed to carefully consider and test the diet-based strategies that you implement for that because of this increased cancer risk.

Melanie Avalon

Something that's really important to note, which they don't really draw attention to in the article about it, surprise, surprise, is these were mice that had a genetic disposition for cancer. So they were mice that were set up to probably get cancer, and then putting them in this setting where they were fasting for 24 hours and then refeeding, that refeeding process actually did increase cancer risk.

Melanie Avalon

And so I have a lot of thoughts about this. The way it relates to what I was saying about asking you about Dr. Stacy Stems, the reason I was asking the question about is it the fasting or is it the fasting and the underfueling?

Melanie Avalon

So is it actually the fasting that's a problem or is it the fasting which creates underfueling? And so my question here is, is it actually the fasting that's the problem or was it the intense overfeeding period that these rats went through because of the fasting and specifically because they were set up for cancer, a genetic tendency towards cancer?

Melanie Avalon

And I have other thoughts beyond that, but just having laid that out, do you have any initial thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

don't. I read both the study links that you sent me. And well, the first thing that I want, I guess, to make clear is that they were rodent studies, right? I think you mentioned that. So what they find could have no application whatsoever to humans, which is something that I've really been learning recently because there's sometimes extrapolations that have been made from rodent studies to humans that later on are confirmed as having absolutely no parallels whatsoever in humans.

Vanessa Spina

So I used to think, well, if they found it in a mice, it must apply to humans even in a small way, right? And then it turns out, no, it doesn't matter. Like it can be found in mice and then not be a factor at all for humans.

Vanessa Spina

So I just want to preface it saying that I would be really curious to see the research done like in human randomized control trials and see, you know, what, I don't know if you could do this kind of study in humans though.

Vanessa Spina

That's one of unfortunate things about the limitations and ethics. You know, I don't think you could, you couldn't create, I guess you could maybe set up the parameters a little bit, you know, differently or just follow people who do a lot of fasting and refeeding in different ways.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I mean, I think you could look at ADF. The problem here, well, like you said with the rodents and like the fasting and rodents, it's hard to translate rodents to days to humans because do you do it one-to-one like 24 hours, 24 hours, or like accommodate the fact that a 24-hour fast and a rodent is days and days and days and a human?

Melanie Avalon

So it's like, what actually is the equal fast? Do we even know? And so, but one of the things I just wanted to, I guess something I think we can take away from this, and this is completely mechanistic, but basically, it is possible that you can do fasting and have these beneficial effects and then have an eating environment that could still be potentially detrimental.

Melanie Avalon

So in this situation, and I would like to actually read, I could only access the overview of the study. I couldn't get the actual details because I would like to know if the rodents that were eating whatever they wanted after the fast, like how did that eating compared to the other groups?

Melanie Avalon

Because it was all just, it was just like what they wanted. So I'm not sure like what they were actually eating or how much.

Vanessa Spina

It also just wanted to make a point there. It also, like they said they did three groups, but they weren't all the same. Like one just did fasting, then one did fasting and refeeding. So they didn't, and then there was a third group, but they didn't do like three, like three or four different types of fasting and refeeding.

Vanessa Spina

So how do they know for sure it's the refeeding?

Melanie Avalon

How do they know to what extent the fasting was the cause here? They need a group that was overeating without having fasted as well. That I'd be curious about because that they might, you know, they might find with that, that fasting was actually mitigating some of the effects, you know?

Melanie Avalon

But something I think that we can take away from this, and this actually relates to our next question is I do, this is my opinion, but I think fasting has so many incredible benefits and I think people can do compensatory, take compensatory measures from that, that create problems and then that, and then the fasting gets blamed for it.

Melanie Avalon

So I think that happens with the under fueling with the athletes. Like I, it might not be the entirety of the cause of the problem is they're under fueling, but I feel like it's probably a big part of it.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm curious if we had a population of athletes and maybe there's been the study, but I'd be curious if there's a population of athletes that did not under fuel like at all and was doing fasting, do they see problems?

Melanie Avalon

And then like with the study, I'd be really curious if they were to have a control group of rodents that fasted and then were controlled to eat normally. Like would they see the problems? And then on the flip side, I don't think fasting is a magical cure all for everything, so you could do fasting and then you can still, in your eating window, eat not good food, like carcinogenic, toxic food, processed food,

Melanie Avalon

high sugar food, and fasting might help mitigate a lot of the effects of that. But I don't think it's a magic wand to just completely undo the negative potential of what we do end up putting in our bodies.

Melanie Avalon

So whether it's too little or too much, that stuff still counts. So yeah, fasting seems to be given, it gets all the blame or like all the praise, and I think the approach is actually more nuanced than that.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, I agree.

Melanie Avalon

So, which that does relate to the question. So would you like to read Amy's question?

Vanessa Spina

Yes so first question today is from Amy. I just finished a three day water fast and when i had my first meal afterwards my body swelled up and became very sore. I am assuming it's the return of inflammation does it seem.

Vanessa Spina

Normal to have the inflammation return so quickly or was this likely more of an indication of a food sensitivity slash intolerance it was tough because i hadn't done a fast. Over 20 hours in a long time however i regained my sense of smell i lost it from coven so that was super cool wow amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, Amy. Well, first of all, I'm dying to know. And since this was from Facebook, maybe I can ask her, I'm really curious how I really want to know how like when she had COVID was her sense of smell gone for months and months.

Melanie Avalon

And then she did a three day water pass and it came back or like, had she just had COVID and then did it and came back. So it would be hard to, you know, parse out if it was actually do the fasting. But if it had been like months and months, and then she did this and it came back, that would be so, that would be so cool.

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it's cool either way and it's awesome either way. Have you had COVID Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

Have had it one time It was really at the very very end. I got like a very last variant I think it was omnichron or something and it was pretty mild

Melanie Avalon

Did your smile go away?

Vanessa Spina

I didn't, but funny enough, that's how we figured out what was going on. We were actually in Greece and the hotel that we stayed at, you know, Uzo, Uzo, Uzo, I'm probably saying it wrong. Uzo is this Greek, it's sort of like a hooch or like a, like a moonshine kind of thing, or just like a alcohol Uzo.

Vanessa Spina

I think it's homemade sometimes. You can make it homemade or professionally made, but it's a traditional Greek drink, very strong, smells very strong, just like most hard alcohols. And they always have it in the room, in your hotel room, it's like a little.

Vanessa Spina

Like a welcome gift? Yeah, like a welcome gift. Exactly. They have some like nice local nuts and then locally made Uzo. And we always take it and put it away because we don't want our kids to, you know, go and play with it or whatever and knock it over.

Vanessa Spina

So we always take it and put away in the closet. And there was one, I think it was like halfway through the trip. My husband took it, took it out. I think he wanted to like taste it or try it or something.

Vanessa Spina

And he's like, huh, that's weird. It doesn't smell. And we were like, what? He's like, and then he's like, I think I lost my sense of smell because I smelled it and it almost knocked me out of my chair.

Vanessa Spina

And so if he couldn't smell that, you knew it was real. And he's like, I think I have COVID. I was like, no, you don't. He took a COVID test the next day, but that was like his only symptom. Weirdly enough.

Vanessa Spina

I never lost any of my smell or taste. Did you?

Melanie Avalon

So was he asymptomatic, COVID, or was he feeling sick?

Vanessa Spina

He didn't feel great, you know, but he wasn't like super sick. Yeah, it just lasted a couple of days. Like a short cold and mine same for me, but I didn't lose this smell.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, for me, I had it twice. The first time I had it, it was weird because I didn't feel... It was the day after New Year's Eve, so I thought I had just been out too late and it's funny because I hadn't been actually sick in years, so I didn't realize I was sick.

Melanie Avalon

I didn't put two and two together. I was like, I'm so tired. I actually had a fever the night before. I was dreaming that I was burning up. I was dreaming about fire and stuff, but I didn't put two and two together, and then my smell went away.

Melanie Avalon

My sense of smell, and I was like, oh... I was like, I know what this is. And then when I got it the second time, same thing, I had a dream at night where I was in some sort of hot situation and woke up and didn't think I was sick, but then it started going away again.

Melanie Avalon

I was like, oh, I know what this is. So that was... Last, sorry, last hand gen. I'm so sorry, but it just reminds me of it. My sister and I went out. The Michelin guide recently came to Atlanta and they starred some restaurants.

Melanie Avalon

Do they come to Prague? Is there a Michelin in Prague restaurants?

Vanessa Spina

Yes, there's a couple. There's just only a couple, but yeah, they do come here.

Melanie Avalon

So we've been wanting to go to the different ones and try them. And we went to one called Lazy Betty over the weekend, which was amazing. I highly recommend it. They were awesome. But the bartender was so incredible and giving us all of this free, all these free drinks, but he gave us this, like a spirit made from grapes made from my favorite white wine, grape, melon blanc.

Melanie Avalon

But it was that situation where like you couldn't even like smell it. It would like wipe you out. You had to like, I was like scared of it. I was like holding it far away from me. But I am not a, I do not like hard alcohol or spirits.

Melanie Avalon

They're not my, they're not my cup of tea. Do you, do you like them?

Vanessa Spina

No, I mean, so we were at a little get together yesterday. And I wanted to have some Prosecco. That's my go to. And they said I could only have a bottle, which was like $500 or something. So I was like, Okay, I guess I'll have something called a skinny bitch.

Vanessa Spina

I don't know if you need to bleep that out. But it's an actual drink in Prague. And everybody knows it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh really? It's like common to order.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, it's just vodka soda with a splash of lime.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yeah, it's like a skinny margarita.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, but when I was back in Texas and I was out with some friends who are also one of my girlfriends who lives in Switzerland and we both were like, yeah, we'll have a skinny bitch. And the waitress was like, excuse me?

Vanessa Spina

We're like, okay, it's not a thing here, but it's a thing.

Melanie Avalon

in Europe. That's funny. Wait, so that's what, so you like it like in a, it's okay. And then like a mixed drink situation, I guess.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, exactly. I'll have it with soda if there's no other options. But over the years I used to have that more. Now I'm more of a Prosecco kind of girl, especially since I tested it with my CGM this summer and saw that really didn't do what I thought it was doing.

Vanessa Spina

So yeah, I feel fine about having those.

Melanie Avalon

which is so interesting to me because Prosecco, I mean, it's a, it tends to be a little bit sweeter, right? Doesn't it? Or is it really dry?

Vanessa Spina

These are pretty dry usually, but I still expected it to.

Melanie Avalon

to do something different.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah. And it just like, well, Kara was explaining to me, just like turns your liver off in terms of putting out, it shuts off gluconeogenesis essentially while it's dealing with the alcohol. So your blood sugar can go down, which is what happens to mine, which is like, I don't think is a bad thing.

Melanie Avalon

This relates to a question we have later. Perfect. I might reorder the question so we can talk about it. In any case, how are we on this tangent? I'm so sorry. Oh yeah. Like COVID and smelling all the things back to Amy's question.

Melanie Avalon

I think Amy, okay. She says, is it normal to have the inflammation return so quickly? So your body's swelling up and becoming really sore after eating. That's not normal. And what I mean by normal is that's not what we should be experiencing in a really healthy metabolic state where what we're eating is really suiting us.

Melanie Avalon

And the processes are all working the way they should be working. I don't want to say it's not normal that, oh, it's like horrible and terrible. And you know, you're an outlier. I don't mean it that way at all.

Melanie Avalon

I just mean that it is a sign that something is not working here because you shouldn't be swelling up and getting sore after eating. You don't have to like sign up for that. It's like part of life. It's like there are other options.

Melanie Avalon

So I would, and the way this really relates to the study before is that that study was showing that even with the fasting, the food eating state, depending on what it is, can be inflammatory. So in that study, it was increasing the risk of, you know, tumor growth in cells.

Melanie Avalon

She says, is it likely an indication of a food sensitivity or intolerance? I'm not a doctor. I would say high probability that that is the case. So I would really look at what you're eating. And the amazing thing about coming off of a lung fast like that is it's a great opportunity to see how you react to food because you should be able to eat food and not swell up and feel bad from it.

Melanie Avalon

So I would think it's probably something you're eating. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

I think it's probably a combination of inflammation and a food intolerance, so when I used to do a lot of extended fasting, which I'm glad I don't do as much of it as I used to, because I used to do quite a bit of it before, I also would notice similar things sometimes, and especially inflammation, like in my legs.

Vanessa Spina

Whenever I would do an extended water fast for four to five days, I would have no inflammation. It was amazing. It was an amazing feeling of lightness, and my legs especially would get really, I don't know what the word is, not toned, but just free of inflammation, and no swelling, whatever the opposite of swollen and puffy is, hydrated and just perfect.

Vanessa Spina

And then when I would go back to eating normally, I usually would have some return of the inflammation. And I have some friends who are like this as well with their legs. It tends to happen in the ankles or legs.

Vanessa Spina

And I think it can also be fluid shifts. Usually when you're fasting, maybe you're having a little bit of salted water, but you have way less sodium coming in without the food. So you also can release just water from the lowered amount of sodium being consumed, and also from the lowered retention and recycling of electrolytes.

Vanessa Spina

Your kidneys, when your insulin levels fall, which they do quite a bit during fasting, your kidneys don't reabsorb as many electrolytes, so people dump a lot of water, a lot of glycogen to you. But yeah, I think it's probably a combination of those things.

Vanessa Spina

But yeah, it can be really frustrating speaking from experience. I actually, I think, got to the point where I was kind of tired of the back and forth that I would experience from that, whereas now where I'm at, I have to say I don't have any issues with any inflammation, swelling, fluid imbalance issues, or anything like that.

Vanessa Spina

And I don't know, it would be interesting if I did a fast now to see if it would make much of a difference. But I just prefer the stability of it because the back and forth, I would get so much relief from inflammation when I would fast.

Vanessa Spina

But then as soon as I was consuming a lot of food normally after. But I have to say, I did figure out a lot of foods that were more inflammatory for me from it. So whenever you do an elimination diet, there's always a massive opportunity to reintroduce things very methodically.

Vanessa Spina

And a lot of people don't do that, which is actually one of the things that those studies were sort of talking about early in the episode is you can do a fast and get all these benefits, but then if you eat sort of the wrong foods when you reintroduce them, then you might end up causing more damage than if you didn't do the fast at all, which I definitely agree with.

Vanessa Spina

So you want to be specific about consuming healthy foods. You are what you eat, so what you consume definitely will become a part of your body and proteins and substrates and all that. So yeah, I think it's probably a combination.

Vanessa Spina

And if you reintroduce things really methodically, one at a time, and usually it's recommended to do a slice of something and then wait a day and see what happens and then do a little more. And it takes time, but it's invaluable what you learn from it.

Vanessa Spina

I really learned, especially with vegetables, which ones would make me very bloated and I never have bloat anymore because I just figured out what those were and I didn't know before. So yeah, it's a great opportunity to figure out what's really well aligned with your personal physiology.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad that you pointed out the part about the fluid changes because that's definitely a huge shift and I think the soreness is part of the part that indicates to me that you're having some sort of immune response to the food likely because like pain signals

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I don't remember having soreness. That part is really interesting and would be interesting to talk to a doctor who's familiar with fasting. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

No, definitely. Yeah, so hopefully that helps. Maybe we can go to the question that related to the alcohol. All right. So now we have a question from Michelle and this is the one that relates to Dr. Stacy Sims.

Melanie Avalon

So this is perfect. Oh, by the way, did you reach out to her to interview her? Dr. Sims. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, she was on Huberman, but she had been on my radar already. And I had emailed her a little bit before she was on Huberman's podcast. And I think I told you, they wrote back and said that they didn't think it would be a good fit because she wasn't a fan of keto and intermittent fasting.

Vanessa Spina

And I realized that if you look up my podcast, it still had the old description where I talk about keto and fasting a lot. So I wrote back and I was like, oh, that's when the podcast used to be called Fasquito.

Vanessa Spina

And I also think athletes need different strategies. And I would love to talk to her and learn from her. They said, yeah, then that's great. She really likes that and would love to come on. And she was absolutely wonderful.

Vanessa Spina

I think it was my favorite episode of the podcast I've ever done.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, whoa. That's an endorsement.

Vanessa Spina

I know. She's like my favorite guest I've ever had on. She's so passionate about understanding women's specific physiology, but she's also so kind and down to earth. Yeah, really amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So Michelle's question, she says, Hey, Melanie, thank you for answering my question about modal diabetes on the podcast. And the reason she's addressing it to Melanie was I posted this, this post in the Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon

I was very excited. Love you, ladies. Thanks for the tips. Another question that I have about fasting is regarding women in their forties. I just turned 40 this year. I listened to a Huberman podcast.

Melanie Avalon

There we go. Recently where he interviewed Dr. Stacy Sims, she was talking about how women should not work out fasted. And then she puts the little like yikes face emoji, especially as we age and our hormones change.

Melanie Avalon

I don't love eating in the morning right away. And I like to work out fasted somewhere between 9am and noon. Any thoughts on this? I saw on Vanessa's Facebook group that she might be interviewing Dr.

Melanie Avalon

Stacy Sims soon or trying to thank you while we answered that last part. Yeah. So Vanessa, do you have thoughts on this, especially after interviewing Dr. Sims?

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, it's really interesting, I think. So she did mention that she thinks any woman who is active on a regular basis is an athlete. Mm-hmm. That's a definition. Yeah, even if it's recreational. Because I was, you know, telling her a little bit, like, I don't really think I'm an athlete.

Vanessa Spina

You know, I just work out recreationally. And she's like, no, if you do regular intentional exercise, you're an athlete. So that's the way she, that's her perspective on it. So she thinks that there's solid research showing that if women are doing resistance training, just a small amount of amino acid is about 15 grams before the workout is really beneficial for the hypothalamus to know that there's fuel on board,

Vanessa Spina

as she says it, and also for the recovery, it triggers certain aspects of recovery as well and helps women recover better from the workout. She also mentioned that women should have a protein meal, I think she said, within half an hour of a resistance training workout.

Vanessa Spina

And then she also mentioned that if you're going for endurance, that I think 30 grams of carb before. So she personally is an athlete. And she has something called like a protein coffee. And she makes an espresso shot with some protein powder in it.

Vanessa Spina

And she'll just like, sort of do a shot of that in the morning before heading out to do like a cold water swim or something pretty intense. I found this information pretty valuable. You mentioned that you don't love eating in the morning.

Vanessa Spina

And I'm very similar to that. I don't have an appetite in the morning. But I started eating anyway. And, you know, like I mentioned, I have my first meal around 10am. I usually work out around 11. And having a small meal, like if you just have a protein coffee or like I've been doing a scoop of protein with some oatmeal or with some yogurt, it's really not a huge meal that you feel it when you're working out.

Vanessa Spina

But I would say in terms of like feeling full, which I always worked out fasted partly because I wanted I didn't want to feel full working out. But I think it does. I have been noticing I've been enjoying my workouts so much more.

Vanessa Spina

I've been able to push so much harder. I'm doing a higher weight level now already. And I've gone from doing two to four workouts a week to doing five to six. And then I've also just added an endurance.

Vanessa Spina

So in the last week, I've done two. It's kind of funny, I call it strollerblading, but rollerblading with my stroller with my nine month old. It was so much fun. I went with a girlfriend twice last week.

Vanessa Spina

And this is like a roller coaster for the kid. Yeah, it was really fun. Damien slept the entire time through it. So the second the second time today he was awake and he was just loving it, zooming around.

Vanessa Spina

But this is like a 600 calorie burn according to my Apple watch. And it was really intense, like very hard work. It looks so easy. Like you're just gliding around, but it's a more intense workout way more than my weights or even running in some ways, but super satisfying if you want like a really intense workout.

Vanessa Spina

So the first time I did it, I, I think I was fasted and, or maybe I had just, I had, I know I didn't have any carbs. I had just had some protein in the morning because I was just doing resistance training in the morning.

Vanessa Spina

And I was struggling. Like I was really struggling during that, that hour. And today I chose to take her advice and I had some carbs before we left and it made a huge difference. I enjoyed it so much more.

Vanessa Spina

I was so much more powerful. It was just a much better workout. So I think I had a banana before we left and I had already had some protein powder earlier. So, you know, I understand the importance of, you know, the fasting windows for some people.

Vanessa Spina

And I was like that for so many years, but I think, Like I said, when we first started talking, I use those strategies specifically to help me lose fat. It was very effective keto. Although it has been said to not be the best diet for building muscle, it is, it has been said to be the best diet for losing fat.

Vanessa Spina

There's lots of different ways to do that as well. Even you know, high carb, low fat, or moderate carb, moderate fat, or however you want to, you know, choose your fuel mix. But I think, depending on where you're at, intermittent fasting can be amazing when you want to lose some fat.

Vanessa Spina

But I just want to say, don't be afraid of having a little bit of protein or even a little bit of carb before your workout. Especially if according to the research, it can help you recover better. And you might even enjoy working out more.

Melanie Avalon

Are you fasting at all now or are you eating a little bit throughout the day?

Vanessa Spina

So according to the international fasting consensus, I'm still doing intermittent fasting because the minimum is 14 hours. So I'm eating usually between 10 and seven, which is not that different from that's a nine hour eating window.

Vanessa Spina

It's not that different from what I used to do. But I'm glad you asked because it probably sounds like I'm not doing any fasting anymore. I still am. I'm just not doing a 16 eight, but now more doing a 59.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. It's so funny how like when you've been fasting for so long, for longer amounts, like you and I were like 14 sounds, I mean, at least to me, like it doesn't sound like that much, but like it's like so much compared to normal, you know, like normal standard eating.

Melanie Avalon

We come from a different, you know, paradigm now, having been in the fasted world so long. I had one other thought about that. Oh, speaking of the fasting definition. So at the time of this recording that episode actually is this week, like is airing this week.

Melanie Avalon

It's funny because we do each time we do four different subject lines in the email. And then long story short, if people run email campaigns, they'll know how this works. But we do different subject lines.

Melanie Avalon

And then the most popular subject line, it sends the majority of the email or half of the emails to the most popular one. So when we were coming up with the lines this week, I saw all the different ones.

Melanie Avalon

And I knew that it was that week. And so I was like, we have to do something about the fasting definition. And so that that subject line was like, finally, we have a definition for fasting. And that was the most popular winner.

Melanie Avalon

So if you want to know the definition

Vanessa Spina

Yes, and I am planning to interview Dr. Grant Tinsley who spearheaded that paper.

Melanie Avalon

It's so exciting. Awesome. Yeah. So, you know, that was, that was super helpful. And I would love to interview Dr. Sims and maybe she, I'd be curious if interviewing her, if it would change my mind. And by, by change my mind, I mean, I think it's great that approach and that concern surrounding women and under fueling.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm not, it's not changed my mind on that. Like, I think it's, I think a lot of women do under fuel and do need more fuel. And I think a lot of women just in general could benefit from having this other approach to fasting.

Melanie Avalon

So I think that's great. I guess my, my thing, I'd be curious if I would change my mind on is does every woman need to adjust to that? So for example, like Michelle working out in the morning, doesn't love eating in the morning either, and hasn't communicated anything about not feeling well doing that.

Melanie Avalon

Like maybe, maybe she's not, but I'd be really, really curious if my thoughts would change on if you're a woman and you're doing physical activity and you feel fine and you're doing it fasted. Like, is that a problem?

Melanie Avalon

I'm assuming she would say that is still a problem.

Vanessa Spina

You'd have to ask her directly, but I think, okay, on the one hand, like I said earlier, she mentioned that these tools do have a place when someone is, say, obese, or has PCOS, or is metabolically unfit.

Vanessa Spina

So her, I think, concern is more for women who are not in that situation and are already really lean, maybe lower body fat percentage, and then are at that risk of under-feeling because you also don't have a lot of stored fuel at that point, right?

Vanessa Spina

I would say, if you were to ask her, I don't know exactly what she would say, but I would say she would probably say something like, you could do it, but you might shortchange like some of your recovery or some of your hormone levels.

Vanessa Spina

One thing that she's also really big on is eating more protein when you're older. So if you're targeting 30 grams of protein per meal, if you're postmenopausal, she believes you should target more like 40 grams of protein per meal, and her protein recommendations are on the upper end.

Vanessa Spina

It's closer to 1.1 gram of protein per pound of body weight to 1.2, very specific. Again, based on a lot of research. So she's on the upper end of protein recommendations. I think that's because of, you know, she's talking more specifically to an athletic population.

Vanessa Spina

I didn't really ask her a lot of questions about postmenopause, so I know that, so for example, Michelle, she just turned 40, so probably not even perimenopausal yet, or maybe, but she did mention something specifically to women who are in perimenopause, and she has two amazing books.

Vanessa Spina

I think one of them is called Roar, I'm reading it right now. The other one is sort of a follow-up to that one, so I think she has specific recommendations for people in different stages, so I don't really know what exactly, because you mentioned, you know, especially as we age and our hormones change, so maybe you're experiencing some hormonal changes, you'd have to ask her directly to know for sure what she would say.

Melanie Avalon

Somebody else who might be an interesting person to listen to would be Dr. Mindy Peltz. She talks a lot about menopause and fasting.

Vanessa Spina

Our last question is from Diane and the subject is glycogen stores. Does the food you eat during your feast affect your glycogen stores? For example, if I eat a salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than if I have pasta or maybe extra wine with dinner?

Vanessa Spina

Does when you eat the pasta during the fast affect how fast you burn the stored glycogen? For instance, if I open with pasta and close with a snack of turkey, does that change the way it burns? I'm truly enjoying your podcasts and learn something new every week.

Vanessa Spina

Keep up this important work, ladies.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, Diane. Thank you for your question. And so we think we think she's probably combining two different words in her question, because it's a word that is not a word. So I think she's confused between glycogen and glucagon.

Melanie Avalon

And she kind of made a new word from that, which is awesome. We love creativity. But assuming she's referring to glycogen, which is stored glucose in our liver and our muscles. So the answer is yes. Yes, and is the answer.

Melanie Avalon

So basically, I think it's more important to have a broader view of everything. So rather than thinking about it, like in this specific meal, this order of the food is going to lead to this storage of the glycogen in this order.

Melanie Avalon

It's more about the entire meal. How much glycogen are you going to store from it? And then in the fasted state, what is the hierarchy of burning fuel? So glycogen, like I said, it comes from glucose.

Melanie Avalon

So any food that has carbs can become glycogen. We can also create glucose from excess protein. The pathway there is a little bit longer. And the carbs are going to be the main thing that are more instantly filling up your glycogen stores.

Melanie Avalon

So like in her example of salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than pasta? Most likely, yes. Well, I mean, but it also depends on the dressing. You know, it's a dressing like really high, like honey mustard, sugar.

Melanie Avalon

So it really just depends on the amount of carbs and glucose that actually end up getting stored. It's like the net carb load. The interesting thing about the extra wine, and this is why it relates to what we were saying earlier, is that wine actually does temporarily, or alcohol, does temporarily decrease glycogen stores, or it can, and decrease blood sugar levels because it turns off the process where the liver is creating glucose and glycogen itself,

Melanie Avalon

gluconeogenesis. And what's interesting about that, which is another tangent side note, but the majority of the blood sugar in your bloodstream is not what you just ate. The majority of it is from your liver churning it out.

Melanie Avalon

So that's a little bit, a slight misconception people have. And that's how things may work like berberine, like my berberine supplement, for example, which can lower blood sugar and metformin, and they may be working in part by impeding the ability of the liver to produce glucose.

Melanie Avalon

Back to the question. She's asking about, you know, the order of it. So like opening a pasta, closing with turkey, does that change the way it burns? At least for storing glycogen, I wouldn't think about it that way so much because it's really going to be the net load of the overall meal.

Melanie Avalon

Because when you're in the eating state, you're in the eating, the fuel storing state, regardless. I would eat in an order that both, that best benefits your digestion and your hunger levels, which might relate to this a little bit.

Melanie Avalon

But for example, people often find, and we talk about this a lot, like opening a protein and centering your meal around protein can have a really safe shading effect, get you the nutrients you need. And then you might find that, you know, having carbs after might be a better approach for you.

Melanie Avalon

You can try different things. This is where CGM really comes in handy. And we've talked a lot about CGM's on today's show. So if you would like a continuous glucose monitor, you can go to Nutrisense.com slash if podcast and you can use the coupon code if podcast to get a discount.

Melanie Avalon

I believe it's $30 off and one free month of free nutritionist support. So we really recommend that. But just to wrap up Diane's question. So yes, it would be the overall net load, mostly of carbs, protein a little bit as well.

Melanie Avalon

But a lot of that's from carbs is determining your glycogen stores. And then oh, one last thing, as far as burning, so like the hierarchy of burning in the fasted state, we naturally burn the glycogen from our liver.

Melanie Avalon

And once we deplete that, that's when we enter into the fat burning. Well, that's when we can more likely enter into the ketogenic state. The glycogen in our muscles is actually saved for like muscle related activity.

Melanie Avalon

So we don't really tap into that while fasting, at least not like in a daily fast. Do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina

That was the most perfect summary and answer ever. There's nothing I could possibly add to that

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Thank you. Well, so hopefully that was helpful, Diane. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Loving the questions. We're approaching next week is episode 399. It's a special guest episode with Barry Conrad, who's back on the show.

Melanie Avalon

Definitely check it out because we dive deep. Actually, it's kind of like the flip side of today's conversation. We dive deep into fasting as a man. He maintains an epic, epic body composition, does his daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon

We talk about his eating window. We talk about how much time he spends in the gym, which is not a lot of time at all. He's an actor and he's in a lot of really cool things. So definitely check that episode out next week.

Melanie Avalon

And then 400 after that, we're going to do something special. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions at ipodcast.com, or you can go to ipodcast.com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon

You can get the show notes at ipodcast.com slash episode 398. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ipodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. All right. I think that is all the things.

Melanie Avalon

Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina

I had so much fun. I love all the questions and can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon

Likewise, I will talk to you in two weeks. Okay.

Vanessa Spina

Sounds great. Bye.

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed.

Melanie Avalon

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon

See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 271 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Mary - Slow weight loss

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #75 - Joel Greene (Part 1)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #88 - Joel Greene (Part 2)

Listener Q&A: Denite - Alcohol should have cancer warning labels, say doctors and researchers pushing to raise awareness of risk

#193 – AMA #31: Heart rate variability (HRV), alcohol, sleep, and more

AVALONX SERRAPEPTASE:  Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At Avalonx.Us/Emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com!

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Listener Q&A: Deborah - LDL higher since IF

Ep. 128 – Cholesterol Obsession: Why It’s the Intellectual Property of the Animal Kingdom with Dave Feldman

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #126 - Azure Grant

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 271 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. And no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get sugar free, nitrate free, heritage breed bacon for life, plus $10 off. Yes, free bacon for life, plus $10 off. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding grazing practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. That's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves, but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. 

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible, the average cost is actually less than $6 per meal, and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, “This is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life.” On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks. And their bacon, for example is from pastured pork, and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? I'm super excited, because ButcherBox’ bacon for life is back and it's even better, because you get $10 off as well. Yep, right now, new members will get one pack of free bacon in every box for the life of your membership, plus $10 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's one pack of free bacon in every box for the rest of your life plus $10 off. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last four years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check on my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products. Deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. And you can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 271 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey there. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well. How are you? Now, we're three days before our vacation. So, I'm super excited.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I'm really excited for you. I can't wait to see the pictures from all the places. Are you guys’ big touristy people? Do you do all the touristy stuff or how do you approach a vacation?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it depends. My kids, well, I should say, we've been incredibly fortunate that even when our kids were younger, it has always been a big priority to expose them to different countries and travel. Believe it or not, there's ways to do that very affordably. I think there's this perception that it's all obscenely expensive. I think a Disney vacation could cost as much as or even more than going to Europe, as one example. We find a balance. To me, I always like to stay in places where it's not so touristy. When we've stayed in Paris, we have stayed in areas where it's still wonderful, but you can walk right outside and go to a café, and I like to go to grocery stores in there, I like to make picnics. To me, there's a lot to be said if you're really exposed to the culture. We'll do cooking classes and we'll still see some of the iconic sights when we're in certain cities. But to me, it's a combination of togetherness, and connection, and being able to be exposed to different cultures, and see museums. My kids actually if you were to ask them their favorite thing they've seen in London as an example, they would say, Westminster Abbey. We're definitely a family that like to be inspired when we go on vacation, but I'm also not someone that necessarily wants to do a lot of tourist trapeze stuff. 

We like good food and we definitely do our due diligence prior to arriving. We're going to be in Prague for a couple days and where we're staying is like a restored monastery. It's got this cool vibe and everything I've heard about Prague is that it's beautiful, and the people are wonderful, and I'm just looking forward to just exploring, and not having too too much plans. One thing I don't like on a vacation is feeling micromanage like, “Oh, every day, we get up and we do this and every day we get up and we do that.” There's built in downtime, which I think is really important, especially coming off of the book launch. I feel I owe my family a lot of family time and connection. I feel there hasn't been as much of that over the last six months. 

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to Budapest? 

Cynthia Thurlow: We are and we're ending in Budapest and I'm super excited.

Melanie Avalon: I was talking with a friend actually, the girl who does my hair at the salon this week, and she was going on and on about Budapest, and she said her favorite thing there was, have you heard of the bone chapel? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to go there? I like the creepy morbid stuff.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, it's interesting, because we had the ability to stay longer in Budapest. We opted not to just because of the proximity at the time we were booking this with the Ukraine and all the unrest that was going on there. I just said, “Okay, well, we'll just be in Budapest for two days,” and then we'll head home, but the heading home part is a little less fun than the going to, because Budapest doesn't fly direct to any major place that's close to where we're going. We have to fly to Paris, and then Paris to Boston, and Boston to our new hometown. So, it'll be a long leg back. But I kept saying the kids, I was like, “It's going to be so great. We don't have to fly into New York, which is great,” because I don't know if anyone listening is flown into. Anytime you fly internationally, there are certain airports you want to avoid when you have to go through immigration and it's been my experience in New York is one of those that you want to avoid. So, I'm actually happy we're flying into Boston, little smaller of an airport, but we'll see. 

Melanie Avalon: Very nice. I'm just thinking, my favorite thing in London was probably Tower of London and in Paris going back to the morbid stuff. Have you been in the catacombs?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have. But I haven't done that with my kids and so, I think there'll be old enough this time when we go back. You know it is, I'm a total Francophile. I actually love the culture, and the food, and just how Parisians are unlike anywhere else in the world and it's such a beautiful city. I love the architecture and I don't know I just absorb it all.

Melanie Avalon: I remember when I was there, we were eating on a street café, and a girl from my film fraternity walked by, I was like, “What are the odds?” Makes you wonder and especially, people that you meet in the future who you might have crossed paths with. It's just crazy. How can be such a big world, but such a small world?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny. My cousin and I were just talking yesterday, and she's actually going to Paris with one of her college friends, and she was saying, “Oh, the exchange rates fantastic. You can really get a nice bag.” I was like, “Oh, don't make me jealous.” The last few times I've been there, the lines are so long that I've just completely discouraged me from procuring a bag at a great price. I just said, “I'll live vicariously through you.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the shopping. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm. That's dangerous. Although, it's funny. When I'm with my husband and my boys, I don't do a lot of shopping, which my husband really appreciates largely, because teenagers don't want to be dragged into any shopping situation. They've always not been big shoppers. I think that's probably been a blessing. So, we go to these amazing cities and I'm not as encouraged to go do that.

Melanie Avalon: My mom is just like a shopaholic. There's more estrogen in my family than testosterone where me and I have a sister and a brother. My brother's the one with all the girls. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, that's funny. Yeah, no, it's funny. I have one sibling, and my brother has all girls, and I've all boys, and I always say, “God has a sense of humor, because if you had asked us before we had kids, I would have ended up with all girls, and he would have ended up with boys.” But I ended up with exactly what I needed. And now that I have boys, I can't imagine-- I’ve three nieces who I love, but now that I have boys, I can't imagine things being any different.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. Love it, love it. I got to see pictures of them for the first time yesterday.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, the other characters. They are characters. One in particular doesn't like his photo being taken anymore. I basically told them their last day of school was June 2nd. I said to them, because obviously, one was in middle school was in high school, now, they're both going to high school in August, and I said, “I didn't get my end of the year photo” and of course, they were giving me a hard time and my husband's like, “You are going to stand on that porch in front of that door with your backpack and you were going to smile or we're going to leave you here.” They both looked at each other like, “Fine.” But it's amazing how when they were younger. They loved having their photos taken, they love doing those first day and last day of school things, and now, I hear my husband saying, “You're doing it for your mother.” So, if anyone's listening and you understand [laughs] why we say just let me take one photo. That's why we say, it's actually hard to find photos of all four of us, because they do everything they can to undermine said photos. They'll make a funny face, they won't smile, my 14-year-old scowls now on purpose, even though he's not like a kid that walks around with that expression on his face, but he'll do it on purpose, and my husband's like, “Your mother does so much for you.” I'm like, “That's right. [laughs] Just do something for me. It'll take 30 seconds.”

Melanie Avalon: I feel the biggest meltdowns we had in our family were always around taking the Christmas photo. Actually, [chuckles] one of the biggest inside jokes in our family is one year we were doing the Christmas photo, and we had a photo of all of us in Rome at the Coliseum, but my mom didn't like that one of her. She had me photoshop her in to another picture at the Coliseum, and we did it in black and white, and I should find it and see if it's noticeable. I guess, we thought it wasn't noticeable. But I do know, I think my dad got some feedback from work colleagues being like, “Did you photoshop in Europe?” [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: That's hilarious. That's hilarious. We are our own worst critics. I know sometimes I'll look at photos of me and I'm like say to my team, “Don't ever use that photo again.” [laughs] But once we don't like a photo, I totally get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I'm the same way. Can I update listeners really quick on my magnesium supplement update? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I know you're eagerly awaiting the launch of my magnesium. By the time this comes out, you know what, it probably is launched by now. Maybe. No, no, it's probably right on the cusp of launching. Get on my email list, so you don't miss the updates. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. But my first serrapeptase supplement did so, so well. The second one I'm doing is magnesium. Magnesium is just such a crucial mineral in our health and wellness. I'm always a proponent of getting nutrition from food, but it can be hard to get all of our nutrients all the time due to our depleted soil today, and our living environment, and our stress depletes magnesium, our lifestyles deplete magnesium. I think a lot of people can really benefit from a magnesium supplement. As you guys know, I wanted to make the best form possible. Mine is going to have eight forms of magnesium. Eight, because actually, my partner and I at MD Logic, we're trying to figure this out how many magnesium types there actually are, I think there's around 17, actually. We picked the eight that we think are most beneficial and it actually has activated cofactors to help you absorb it. So, it has methylated B6 and chelated manganese, no potentially toxic fillers, no rice, no seed oils, no palmitates, no stearates, it's in a glass bottle. Basically, it's the best of the best. 

Then here's the fun thing. We really wanted to include magnesium three and eight in it or I wanted to, which is a specific type of magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier. We had it in the initial formulation, but then we realized that in order to get the full therapeutic amount, it wasn't enough, basically. And also, not everybody wants the mind effects of magnesium three and eight. We're going to release it as a second launch as a nightcap that basically you can add on to your magnesium if you specifically want that relaxation effect, that sleep-inducing effect, and the amazing incentive that we're doing for that is, so, my magnesium supplement is going to be called magnesium spectrum eight. If you get it at launch before we sell out, because I anticipate that we're probably going to sell out. Everybody who gets it from that first run, you'll get a coupon code for when we launch the magnesium three and eight nightcap for a major discount. So, definitely get the magnesium spectrum eight at launch before it sells out. Again, get on the email list because that's where I will be releasing the information. In the meantime, if you'd like a discount on serrapeptase or any supplements at MD Logic, you can use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON for that. But ooh, I'm just really excited. I've been bit by the supplement bug. So, yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's very exciting. I'm very excited to see your product and I look forward to when I can share officially what I'm working on. But I'm starting to respond to people's DMs on Instagram to stay tuned. I will definitely be creating something that is relevant to some of our past conversations.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. I can't wait. [chuckles] Between me and you, we're going to have people covered I think with-- Once we fill out the lines, it's going to be such an amazing resource for people who-- Because the supplement industry is so sketchy and so it can be really hard to find quality stuff and know what you're putting in your body and trust it. It's nice that I think you and I-- We were talking about this before recording how in general, there are a lot of things we want to do, and there are things I want to do that Cynthia might not do, and things Cynthia would want to do that I might not do. So, I think between the both of us, it's going to be really great.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I want to express publicly how grateful I am that you made the intro with this company and I'm really excited because one of the things that I've always been very verbal about is why supplement quality is so critically important and why, generally speaking, you shouldn't source off of big websites like Amazon that most of the pharmaceutical grade companies don't third party source. I'm saying in most instances. And so, it's really nice to know that MD Logic has super high qualities, super high integrity, which I think is also really important and also transparency.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I'm so, so grateful. They're actually making, because some of their products right now have fillers that I personally wouldn't use. That might not be a problem for everybody, but I personally don't like, but they're actually making A, what you said about transparency. They're so transparent. You're not going to have to worry about the quality or things are tested for toxins, things are tested for allergens, but they're also making steps to move towards even less of those ingredients. So, definitely, check out their website. We talked in the past about their melatonin that Cynthia really likes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, my goodness, I laugh about-- Actually, it's interesting, my cousin, who I think the world of and is a physician. She now listens to this podcast. The first thing she said after she listened to that podcast was, “Tell me how to get [laughs] their melatonin because I need that.” She just bought a couple bottles and I'm waiting to get her feedback. But yeah, it's very potent. I've used another brand and really did not find the potency to be equivalent at all. Meaning, the MD Logic was clearly more potent and more potent means you actually will end up using less product. And so, that was really important to me.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, we actually both have codes. You can use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON or CYNTHIATHURLOW and get a discount on the MD Logic products. 

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Melanie Avalon: Well, shall we jump into some questions for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Mary. Subject is: “Slow weight loss.” Mary says, “Hi, I've been listening to your podcast for the last month and I've learned a lot. I have been overweight all my life, but in my teens gained a huge amount of weight due to a shop which we had for three years. I'm thinking maybe this fat does not want to shift because it's been there a long time stored. Can fat laid down for years impact on how slow weight loss occurs or do you think slow weight loss could occur because of the fact that I've passed menopause or I have an office job? I walk for 30 minutes a day in my breaks, I do mostly 20:4 these days. My average weight as an adult has fluctuated from 193 to 167, but I usually hover around 172. When I started IF in July after a stressful year, I was 185 and I'm down 12 pounds to 173. I'm thrilled because it has been very low and I'm aiming to get down to 145 pounds now that I'm not scared of looking old as I realized that autophagy will help with that and also remove the loose skin from my legs, which I've had all my life. I'm thinking to do the DNA test too to see if I would be better off cutting out grains altogether or not. I've included a lot here and I hope that you can give me thoughts on anything I mentioned. Thanks in advance.” Mary is from Tasmania, which is super cool.

Cynthia Thurlow: That is super cool. Well, hi, Mary. Thank you for your question. I would say, first and foremost, give yourself grace. You've been on this journey for a long time and I do find that when women in particular, I don't know your age. It's hard for me to speculate. I think that when women get north of 35, there's a little bit of hormonal flocks that can make weight loss-- can give you some plateaus. I think, first and foremost, we have to really get back to basics. I applaud you for your efforts thus far. Slow and steady wins. We don't want to be losing a nonsustainable amount of weight too quickly. We definitely want to do one to two pounds a week is really what we want to be focused on. I think that your questions about carbohydrates, I would say, we really want to reframe that thinking and be making sure that we are hitting our protein macros. During your feeding window really focusing on good quality animal-based protein, 35 to 40 grams of protein with your meals, which is going to help with satiety. I think non-starchy carbohydrates are a great way to go. I'm not anti-carb, but really earning your carbohydrates. If you're going to have starchy carbs like sweet potato, or root vegetables, or if you tolerate grains, keeping the portions very small especially if you're trying to continue to lose weight and being very mindful of your physical activity, it sounds you do a good amount of walking, which I think is fantastic and that can help with insulin sensitivity as well. 

If you get to a point where you want to start adding in, more things that can help with insulin resistance. Thinking about strength training is very important, getting high quality sleep, which means seven, eight hours a night is very important, and also understanding that if we're aligned with our own chronobiology, if we're really aligned with our sleep-wake cycles, we really want to be eating when it's light outside and not eating when it's dark outside. Now, with that being said, I know you're in a different hemisphere and we're heading into summer and you're heading into winter. That might be a little more challenging. But eating earlier in the day is going to be easier for insulin sensitivity than later in the day. And then obviously, as I mentioned, I don't know your age range, but if you are north of 35 or 40, there're a lot of things to really lean into in terms of your physiology that can help as well. You definitely don't want to be over fasting around your menstrual cycle as well. But I think you're off to a great start. And yes, I do find that long-term insulin resistance, inflammation, and oxidative stress in the body takes a bit of time to get to a point where your body's better calibrated. 

The other thing that I would really encourage you to do is to make sure that you are getting some baseline labs with your primary care provider or internist. You have things to compare to. Really looking at inflammatory markers, things like high-sensitivity CRP, looking your fasting insulin, really examining, looking at your lipid profile, which here in the States we're looking at triglycerides, and HDL and LDL, and then looking at your sex hormones as well to get a good sense and a good baseline so that you have something to compare it to.

Melanie Avalon: That was all really great, really comprehensive. I'll just speak briefly. I'll just add to it about the does fat not want to shift because it's been there a long time stored and does the amount of time that it's there affect? It's basically your weight loss potential. There's actually quite a few factors involved here. I know Cynthia and I have both interviewed Joel Greene for his mind-blowing book. His book is very intense. The Immunity Code, that's what it's called, I think. He talks a lot in his book about the extracellular matrix, the ECM. Basically, it's kind of like the clothing on your body in a way and how if you lose weight and your clothing is now too loose, how it is a lot of energy intensive to alter your clothes, and take it in, and make it fit. Your body would almost rather just wait until you regain the weight and keep the clothes on. That was not a very scientific answer. Only to provide more context. Basically, the extracellular matrix, he talks about how every time we lose weight this fluctuation in weight loss, the fat cell is having less fat in it and it still has this matrix that is too loose in a way for the fat cell. The body would rather just fill up the fat cell again, then actually, address that matrix and make it smaller, and that's one of the reasons that the body would prefer to just regain weight rather than maintain a sustained loss. 

He talks about how every time we lose and regain and lose and regain, it actually becomes harder and harder to make the changes to that matrix. It actually becomes stiffer. Basically, the longer you've had the fat, especially if you are fluctuating back and forth, which it sounds you have done, it might make it harder each time to have a more permanent change with the fluctuations. Something else that I think is so, so huge and this is something that people don't talk about a lot, but our exposure to endocrine disrupters through our diet, our lifestyle, our environment, especially our skincare and makeup, those compounds mess with our hormones, and can get stored in our fat cells, and they're even compounds called obesogens. These are endocrine disruptors, which actually make the fat cell more likely to gain weight, more likely to be inflammatory, more insulin resistant, and less likely to lose weight, and then it gets even worse. Basically, it's self-perpetuating. When our fat cells enter this signaling state of inflammation and weight gain, they signal to the rest of the cells to also do this as well. The longer you've been alive, the longer you've probably been exposed to endocrine disruptors and obesogens, especially if you're using conventional skincare makeup, if you're using conventional skincare makeup, you're most definitely putting these compounds into your body. That can have a huge effect. 

You could be doing all the things and dieting, but there could be hormonal signals because of these endocrine disruptors in your fat cells that are making it harder to actually lose weight. A reason that Cynthia and I love Beautycounter, for example, because they make skincare makeup that is free of endocrine disruptors and obesogens. There's also-- The number three would be, there's a set point theory. This is debated and I've done deep dives into this, but it does seem that the hypothalamus in our brain basically perceives a weight that it wants to be at and it will defend that weight. Some people think that there is a timeline aspect to it, so that basically, the longer you've been at a certain weight, the more your body's going to want to stay there. It's possible that even when you lose weight that you have to stay at it for a certain period of time before that resets in the hypothalamus. Again, this is debated, there's not a ton of literature on it I found some, but just anecdotally and from what I see with people, it does seem to be a thing. I say all of that to validate you and that yes, it is quite likely that it is harder to lose the weight, because of the time that you've been alive and what you've experienced. I actually want to be empowering and all of that aside, you can definitely work with your body hormonally, and through diet, and with fasting, and it's not like this is a closed door. Once you have the knowledge, you can be empowered to make the change that will actually work for you.

Then just the very last thing, I don't know what DNA tests you will be doing to check about the grains. I'm just curious what that would be because normally the testing for grains would be something like a food sensitivity tests, but those are heavily debated. I don't know what your thoughts are on food sensitivity tests, Cynthia.

Cynthia Thurlow: I do see some value. I don't use them as often as I used to, because typically when I'm working in a group, we'll do a broad-based Whole 30 and that usually knocks out most things that people are sensitive to whether they're aware of it or not. I know that there's some genetic susceptibility to-- There's a small percentage and I don't even know the statistics offhand. There are some people that don't do as well off of grains, although, I do find it's usually someone who's already insulin resistant that is craving the grains or craving the carbohydrates. I do think broad-based elimination diets like a Whole 30, which there's tons of recipes. Unlike 10 years ago, when I think I first did a Whole 30, you had to make your own ketchup, and you have to make your own mustard, which is craziness. Now, there are Whole 30 compliant things that you can buy ahead of time, which is really nice. But that can oftentimes be very beneficial for people to determine what their specific threshold is. I do find, especially for most of the women, I work with that gluten grains and dairy can be hugely inflammatory, not to mention the processed sugar. So, pulling them out even for a month can be very insightful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I do think that can be the gold standard for a lot of people is doing that short term. It might be long term if you stay on a Whole 30 type approach, but at least a short-term “elimination diet” of sorts can really be a way to figure out what is inflammatory for you personally. Actually, this will tie into the next question, I have done, because I have my data from-- Did you do 23andMe? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I did.

Melanie Avalon: I did a Facebook group version of it. It was called Genes for Good and it was a research project on Facebook. It was completely free and you got your genetic data. It basically was the equivalent of 23andMe. But I have run that data, well, through Prometheus, which is a mind-blowing rabbit hole of looking through everything, but also through different services that will interpret it for you. It basically told you how well you processed grains, carbs or different food-related things and then alcohol. I was red for everything and green for alcohol. So, basically, genetically, I was like, “I'm good with wine and nothing else,” which will tie in to the next question. But any other thoughts about this question? I guess, there's also the celiac test, but it's a little bit different.

Cynthia Thurlow: Obviously, Australia has progressive allopathic medicine routes. I don't know what the gold standard is there. Here, they generally like to do biopsies and there's different ways around it. But autoimmunity is not at all uncommon to see in women and especially women having-- All of us have been through a pandemic the last two years, we've been under unprecedented amounts of stress would not be at all unlikely that there could be something else at play. But that's why I think getting a check in with your primary, get those labs done, especially thyroid function, which I don't think I mentioned earlier, looking at those sex hormones, looking at a fasting insulin, inflammatory markers, all that could be very helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Shall we go to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Denite. “Alcohol should have cancer warning labels,” say doctors and researchers pushing to raise awareness of risk. “I sure enjoy your podcast and want to say thank you for all the work you do. I came across the article below and it piqued my interest. I do not drink alcohol myself, but my father and mother-in-law recently started drinking wine and/or gin every night to help them sleep. My father-in-law also has high cholesterol and someone suggested he drink wine to lower it. What do you think about the articles claims of the carcinogens in alcohol? In your opinion, do the benefits outweigh the risks? I know that you promote Dry Farm Wines and I actually suggested to my in-laws that they check them out as a better and healthier option. I would love to talk to my in-laws about intermittent fasting for the lowering of cholesterol, but I feel that they will not understand it and just shrug it off. Do you have any advice for me on how to broach the subject in a way that they will understand the great benefits of it and at least give it a try? Thank you so much for your help.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Denite. Thank you for your question. She actually had two questions and actually didn't plan this, but our next question ties into the cholesterol. Maybe when we get her cholesterol question, we can read that second question and do that all together. To talk about the alcohol, okay, we've been looking forward to talking about this for a while. I have so many thoughts. First of all, I will start this off by saying, I have no agenda either way about if you do or do not drink alcohol. I just say that because I know my book is What When Wine and I've been very vocal about being a fan of the benefits of wine for health and how I personally really love wine. And yes, I drink Dry Farm Wines, which we can maybe talk a little bit why we love them in particular. The thing about alcohol is, whatever opinion you hold about it, if you want to support that opinion with hundreds of studies from the scientific literature, you can do that. The reason I'm saying that is because I want to step back and I say that I think context is so key. Because if you want to say it's a carcinogen and nobody should ever drink it, you can find tons of studies probably showing that. On the flipside, if you want to say, it's the best thing for longevity, and supports heart health, and everybody should be drinking, you're going to be able to find tons of studies showing that. So, I think it really does come down to the individual. 

Yes, alcohol is a carcinogen and that's what the link is talking about. If it was a carcinogen, which it is, but if that was the end, so if alcohol is our carcinogen, so, we shouldn't drink it, period. I don't think the epidemiological data would support what we find, which is that it often correlates to longevity, to reduce cardiovascular health. There's something more going on here that is beyond looking at a potentially reductionistic view of alcohol like saturated fat. I know it's not the same thing, but you could make arguments that a lot of people in the actually plant-based sphere will say, “Saturated fat is a toxin and by itself is just something we should not have.” I don't think that takes into account, the full picture of things. As far as the actual correlations of alcohol to different health conditions, it tends to be a J shaped curve. What that means is basically the biggest benefits correlationally are with low to moderate alcohol consumption. If you're a complete abstainer, if you're not drinking alcohol in most of the studies, you actually have a higher risk of certain things like longevity and cardiovascular health than if you're actually having a small amount of alcohol or a moderate amount of alcohol, and then of course, the J shaped, if you can envision like a J on a graph, it starts a little bit high, and then it curves down, and so that down curve is when you are the low and the moderate drinkers, and then it shoots up. Because once you get to high consumption, then it's correlated to a lot of detrimental health effects. 

As far as the cancer specifically, so, the cancers that alcohol tends to correlate to are related to parts of the body that actually touch alcohol, specifically. Throat cancer, esophageal cancer, stomach cancer, it does also correlate to breast cancer. But then other cancers, there's often found no correlation and even kidney cancer, there seems to be a reduced risk of cancer with alcohol consumption. Then other conditions that correlate to health benefits are diabetes, gallstone, stroke, and many things related to cardiovascular health. I was reading one study. It was a review of alcohol and cancer. It talks about how drinking, especially heavy drinking does increase cancer risk, which is what she's bringing to us with this statement. But the study actually concluded that “total avoidance” of alcohol, although optimum for cancer control cannot be recommended in terms of a broad perspective of public health and particular in countries with high incidence of cardiovascular disease. I think that really speaks to her question because basically they're saying, yes for cancer control, avoiding alcohol is really important. But if you take in the full picture because of cardiovascular disease, having some alcohol intake might actually be beneficial. 

Then just some other last thoughts to it. I think there is something to the context, especially something like wine. The role of the other compounds in wine like polyphenols seem to have a beneficial effect on our health. Even in the blue zones, which I know is hotly debated, but that's seven countries that are linked to longevity, and six out of seven of them all include alcohol in some part in their diet. Something else and-- I feel I'm going all over the place, but something else important to point out is that gender does play a role here and what is low or moderate drinking, and actually, Peter Attia had a really good episode recently on this that I can put a link to in the show notes. It's recommended that women drink less than men and there're two reasons. There could be more, but there're probably two main reasons for that. One is that it has to do with the hydration content of our bodies, and how that affects the metabolism of alcohol, as well as what it's called first pass metabolism in the stomach. Women, because of the levels of that in the stomach, we actually experience a quicker effect from alcohol than men do. That was all over the place. But to step back, basically, I think context is key. What is the role of alcohol in your diet? For example, Denise says that her father and mother are taking it to help them sleep. That is not a reason I would suggest somebody take alcohol to help them sleep because while it is a depressant and it can make you feel sleepy, it actually can have a rebound effect and cause reduced quality sleep in the long term. 

I think the reason that you're having alcohol is important to consider. I wouldn't take it to induce sleep like I would not take it for that reason. I would take it though, maybe she's talking about high cholesterol and the benefits there that might be a reason to include it in your diet. I also think maybe reason that we see a lot of longevity with people who drink could be the-- especially not the heavy drinkers, but just people who have it in their life as part of a healthy lifestyle. I think there's a social aspect to it. Not advocating turning to alcohol for stress relief, but I think some people, especially low to moderate drinkers, it's a part of their ritual, it's part of their lifestyle, it does provide stress-relieving benefits, and I don't think we should discount that, because I think that can have a huge, huge effect on health. I do want to mention, because a lot of studies will find that like I said that low to moderate drinking is better than complete abstainers. That's a little bit confusing though because people who abstain often were heavy drinkers. The data might be a little bit convoluted and that it can be hard to separate people who don't drink at all from people who were alcoholics and just aren't drinking now. That was all over the place. Cynthia, I'll let you provide some perspectives.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, you brought up some really good points. Like you said, at the very beginning of the answer that question is, there's almost always research that will support whatever prevailing philosophy you have. I do, however, want to be very transparent and say that one of the things about alcohol that lot of people don't talk about is, people drink alcohol because they think it helps them sleep. We know that it disrupts your REM sleep, it reduces melatonin, it increases cortisol, it dysregulates your blood sugar. For people who suffer with hot flashes, it can actually make them worse. The vasomotor symptoms, a lot of people experience in perimenopause and menopause. There's actually some research to demonstrate that alcohol, of course, is considered to be a toxin and it can actually shrink the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that actually helps regulate the HPA or the hypothalamus pituitary axis, which why is that important because this is our main communicator from our brain to our endocrine system. If this is dysregulated and for a lot of people it has been. We've dealt with a lot of stress the last two years. And so, a lot of the work that I do is helping people understand the interrelationship between stress and the net impact on the body. 

The other thing that I would mention that I think is important about alcohol, as we know, it impairs estrogen metabolism. Most of our estrogen metabolism occurs in the liver. We have Phase 1 and Phase 2 liver detoxification. It's important to understand that this puts a burden on the liver. If you're drinking excessively and often they can actually impair the way that your body packages up and gets rid of estrogen. Melanie touched on earlier, we can get exposed to estrogen mimicking chemicals in our environment, personal care products and food, and you laid that on with a lot of alcohol drinking, it can really up your risk of things like fibroids, and even breast cancer. It's interesting a lot of the work that I do is looking at women's breast cancer risks. And so, you really have to make the decision that makes most sense for you. There's no judgement from either of us about whether people choose to drink or they don't choose to drink, but you want to make sure that you're doing it responsibly. Obviously, if you're drinking alcohol to help you sleep, it really isn't helping you sleep. If you're drinking alcohol to help manage stress, we have to be thinking broadly about ways that we can manage that really effectively. 

The last thing that I want to add is that I moved from a very much a drinking culture, the environment that I lived in, in my last city. I think for a lot of women, there's the mommy drinking culture and just being aware, building awareness about our habits, and how that can influence decisions that we make the joke is, I don't drink alcohol because it's the only thing that gives me hot flashes and it wrecks my sleep, and so that's my personal choice. But obviously, I work with many women who do choose to drink alcohol. I always look at it from a very objective opinion to make sure that people fully understand the impact of alcohol and just being responsible about it. I think that's the big takeaway that I would say that I think is important that I love that this young woman is so concerned about her in laws and wants to help educate them about good decision making. Maybe it really needs to just come from a place of sometimes with men I feel if you're really straightforward and just let them know, actually, it's not helping your sleep, let's think of some other ways to help you sleep. That might be an effective strategy.

Melanie Avalon: I love that and I also think it's important-- I know Cynthia and I have talked about this. I think it's very possible to understand that alcohol may or may not work for some people, and may be a detriment to some people, and still provide a resource to people who do want to drink. So, the Dry Farm Wines, for example, because Cynthia, you don't drink, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I don't. I made that decision during the pandemic because I was like, “It's the only thing that makes me get hot flashes and it just wrecks my sleep.” In my hierarchy of my life, as a 50-year-old woman, my sleep is pretty important. [laughs] Because of that the one thing that I needed to eliminate and it's amazing to me, Melanie, how triggering that is for people. I always say like, “I don't judge what other people do.” We even had a party at our house last night and it made people uncomfortable that I wasn't drinking. I said, “I'm totally fine. I'm here drinking my LMNT electrolytes and I'm great. I'm totally happy,” because I'm not going to go to bed dehydrated, I'm not going to go to bed and wreck my sleep, I'm going to hit the pillow, and I'm not going to wake up until I wake up. It's a very interesting dynamic as I try to navigate reassuring people, I'm completely fine in this space. There are no issues that I have whatsoever. People choose to drink. Of course, my husband drinks responsibly, but it's an interesting place to navigate. Figuring out what works best for us and the N of 1 that very powerful value of bio-individuality figuring out what works for you or what doesn't.

Melanie Avalon: It's similar to I feel, if you are doing fasting and you're not partaking in the food situation for whatever reason at a social gathering and people can be very triggered or pressure you to that you need to be eating to enjoy yourself. Especially if I go to, so, not like a dinner, but a gathering where there's food involved, I'll often just not eat. I just would be happier if I go and then I'll eat later. It's so interesting, people-- the social pressure. I used to really struggle with it, but now, I just realized like, “I don't owe anybody anything. I can just do what will make me feel the best in the situation.” But social pressure is definitely very interesting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: Going back to the Dry Farm Wines, so, you don't drink and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but based on the conversation that we just had, I think we can both understand for some people that they do have a healthy relationship with alcohol and for them it's beneficial that we can provide a resource like Dry Farm Wines, for example. So, for the people who do want to drink can do it in the healthiest way.

Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly, they have healthy choices. Yeah. I think one of the things I did not know, until I dove down that wine rabbit hole is just how many contaminants are in wine, and how they're exposed to so many chemicals, and how most of the wineries here in the United States really don't even protect consumers. That was something that when I found that out, I was like, “Wow.” I make good use of buying Dry Farm Wines for family members or friends as gifts and just to try to introduce them to products that are certainly cleaner and safer.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. For listeners, who aren't familiar with Dry Farm Wines, because it's really shocking if you think about it. If you go buy a bottle of wine, there's not a label. There's not a nutrition label. It doesn't show the ingredients. You would think it's just fermented grapes, but it's not usually, especially in conventional wines in the US, they have additives, they have stabilizers, they have colorizers, there's something called mega purple, which is actually to make wine look more purple. If you've ever had wine, especially if it's cheaper wine and you've noticed that it really stains your teeth like red, wine shouldn't do that. Not to the extent that it can when you're drinking cheap wine. It's not from the grapes. It's from this mega purple color additive, which is just shocking to me. Dry Farm Wines, I am obsessed with Dry Farm Wines. They're all a drink. 

They go throughout Europe and they won't even do wines from the US, because they said none of the wines in the US meet their standards. They find all of these wineries practicing organic practices, because there are a lot of wineries that are being organic, but they don't have the time or the money to get an organic certification. They test the wines and then they make sure the wines are free of toxins, free of additives, free of mold, free of pesticides, dry farmed, meaning, they're not pumped up with water. The wines are also low alcohol and low sugar. They're all 12.5% alcohol or less and they're all less than, is it 0.5 or one gram of sugar. They're all low sugar. When I drink Dry Farm Wines, it's such a difference. When I drink “normal wine” if I'm at a dinner or something I'm like, “Oh, this is either too sweet or high alcohol.” I really, really recommend them. You can actually get a bottle for a penny at our link which is at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast. I as well, Cynthia, I gift it to so many people, especially when the holidays come, I'm like, “Okay, just going to send the Dry Farm Wines to all the people.”

Cynthia Thurlow: No, and it's so easy. It's funny. My husband really likes their reds. The thing about Dry Farm Wines is you get three bottles, or you get six bottles, or 12 bottles. And so, they pick them out for you and my husband, who is pretty picky about his red wine, actually, he's really liked what they've been sending recently.

Melanie Avalon: I think they've really evolved because I've been promoting them since almost a long time. In the beginning, I just think they found so many more wineries that the wines just continued to get better and better. What's really cool you can do, I did this literally yesterday because like Cynthia said, you get a mixed collection of wines. You don't choose them. If there's one that you really like, you can actually email them and order that bottle specifically. You can do an order of three. I asked if I could get two of one and then one of another, and they were actually out of the one, but they said they would pick one that was similar to it, and put that in there. So, I'm excited.

Cynthia Thurlow: Do you want to hear a fun fact? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I love fun facts.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I am speaking at an event in July here in Virginia, which never happened. Like unicorn event in Virginia and it's me, and Vinnie Tortorich, and Dr. Phil Ovadia, who's this cardiovascular surgeon who's changed his life by eating a low-carb lifestyle, and fasting, and then actually, Todd White will be there. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Cynthia Thurlow: I’ll get to meet him in person.

Melanie Avalon: I've actually interviewed him twice, I think. Have you interviewed him on your show?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. It's on our fall to-do list. As I'm sure is a podcast, you have a podcast where you have people and we're booking into December, and some people want us to create other slots, and I'm really, now that the book launch is behind me, I'm trying to be very deliberate about my availability. Because as an example, I have three podcasts this week to record and sometimes, the unicorns pop up and you have to say yes. Both you and I are interviewing Mark Sisson this week, which is really super-duper exciting. It's hard to find balance. I struggle constantly and one thing I've told my family is heading into the summer, I'm always working in my business. But I'm only working in my business where I'm visible on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays this summer, because I want to be able to spend time with my kids and not be working constantly. So, hopefully, I'll get to interview him in the fall.

Melanie Avalon: For Mark Sisson, was that a last minute? Was that a spontaneous thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: It was. The opportunity came up, I was told he was in town literally, in the country for two days. And so, I was like, “I have an opening on Tuesday. I'll make that happen.” So, it was that spontaneous.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I wonder if the two days are-- Because I'm interviewing him the day after you.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly. I think that's exactly what it is and then I think he's out of the country again. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: So, yeah. When you have those unicorn interviews and one thing I think is really cool about-- I know this isn't relevant to this podcast, but I'm sure listeners, we've interviewed some people, we've had overlap and others we haven't, but I've listened to your interviews that I've done interviews with, and we get different information. If you're a really good interviewee, you can get different information. I'm sure you probably have interviewed people that they spout the same rhetoric to everyone they talk to, but I think we've been fortunate that we've been able to interview some pretty dynamic individuals that really make interviewing them. It’s just such a blessing, it's such an amazing experience.

Melanie Avalon:  I know. I am so grateful and I'm so excited to see how both of our interviews go.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm sure Mark doesn't remember me, but I met him actually in-- Not intentionally met him. I literally was not paying attention. My head was going in one direction, my body was going another, and I bumped into him. He was very polite and that's what struck me he was incredibly polite. I didn't realize, when I ran into him who it was until I fan geeked after he walked away and then I was like, “Oh, my God, I just ran into Mark Sisson. How does that happen?” And he could not have been more polite.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I love that. Can I tell you what was my funniest celebrity run and moment that but I didn't realize like yours that you didn't realize? This is so funny. I was doing a really small little feature bit in a commercial. I didn't know much about the project and so the director came up to me, and he said his name, and I didn't really hear, and then I said, “Sorry, what was your name again?” He said his name then he walked aside, and then I specifically sought him out and said like, “Sorry, what was your name again?” It was Lance Bass.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I guess, that's forgivable. I think it's good to be humbled. I really, really think it's important to be humbled. It's been my experience. Sometimes, I go to events or places and everyone knows me. Sometimes, I go to events and people, no one knows me. I always say to my husband, he's usually with me, “It's actually good to be humbled.” It's actually a good thing to sometimes have people not know who you are.

Melanie Avalon: It was just funny because I remember I said, “What was your name again?” He said, “Lance” and then I walked away and I was like, “Oh.” [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's hilarious. Like I said, it's good to be humbled, right?

Melanie Avalon: Growing up, I was very sheltered. I was like NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, Britney. I was exposed to them through school and the skate rink, but they were not in my collection. I was not watching, listening to their stuff at home. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay. So, I'm now curious. What does “I was sheltered mean”? What does that represent? I want more information.

Melanie Avalon: A very Christian-- I don't want to say moral because that sounds you're not moral, if you're not Christian. But everything had to be filtered through focus on the Family, and nothing sexual, and so things like Britney Spears, and even NSYNC, and all of that was not something I was listening to the Christian pop stuff.

Cynthia Thurlow: Do want to hear something funny. The very first time I saw Britney Spears on a video, I was like, “Oh my gosh, she's going to be a flash in the pan.”

Melanie Avalon: Really? [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, because you have to remember, I was at different stage of life, I was in my 20s, and I was like, “What is this?” Because it was so highly sexualized. Her very first single that came out that I remember, we were at a party and of course all the guys were gawking at her. I remember just thinking like, “Oh, every other teenybopper teenage oversexualized singer that's out there. Where was I wrong?”

Melanie Avalon: Because I know a lot of people can feel they were suppressed or they could be resentful. I'm not a rebellious type and I don't feel bothered by that upbringing specifically. But even looking back now, I'm like, “Oh, yeah.” I don't think my mom was being crazy and not wanting me as like a third-grade girl to be watching Britney Spears’ stuff. Looking at it now, I'm like, “Oh, yeah, that is little bit sexual.” [chuckles] 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because I view things through the eyes of a parent. My husband and I were making returns, which this is completely irrelevant to the conversation, but I'm going to just to share. I'm the type of person I'm now in a city where the shopping is terrible. I buy a bunch of stuff online and I just bring it all back. My husband was walking around with me as I was making these returns, and there were a couple of young women that passed us who were probably teenagers, maybe early 20s, and my husband was like, “Thank God, we have boys because I don't know what I would do if my daughter walked out of the house with her boobs hanging out and super short, booty shorts. I know that a lot of that's the style.” It's not a judgment. It was just funny that he said that because of course, the boys there're a lot less options for them and certainly, there's not stuff hanging out when they go out. But it's very interesting viewing things as a parent like things that maybe weren't on my radar in my 20s and 30s that I now seen, I'm like, “Oh, God, that's bad.” Meaning, that's an oversexualized representation of what a young woman could be doing for herself positively or negatively.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Friday nights were the Friday night skate nights and I loved it because that's when I got to hear all the music, because it's really-- It was the prime time of really good solid pop music. Her music’s really amazing for pop. [laughs] So, needless to say, that is why I did not recognize Lance Bass is my excuse.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's a good thing. You probably humbled him enormously.

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Melanie Avalon: Okay. And then to briefly address Denite’s other question and I'll go ahead and read the second question we had because it all ties together. So, Deborah, her subject was: “LDL higher since IF.” She just said, “I've gotten my best friend to join me in IF, but after only two months her blood work came back with an LDL of 148. Previously, it was completely normal. Her son, who was an RN told her that's why he stopped IF. Help, research on this,” and then as a refresher, so, Denite’s question was about “Intermittent fasting for lowering cholesterol and actually advocating it to her in-laws” and did we have any thoughts about that? So, fasting and cholesterol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I think everyone by now knows my whole background as an NP for 16 years was in cardiology, so, you better believe I have seen a lot of lipid panels, both straightforward lipid panels, which are total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, triglycerides, and then advanced lipid analysis. Number one, I don't really worry about total cholesterol. In fact, we don't want it to be too low. I had patients on very, very powerful lipid-lowering agents and when their total cholesterol got close to 100, you have to remember what cleaves off of cholesterol that includes our sex hormones. How many patients had erectile dysfunction and other issues related to too low cholesterol? You don't want to be looking for a too low of a total cholesterol. I'm not sure if she was specifically referring to triglycerides and HDL, which I typically see being abnormal, meaning, triglycerides over 150, HDL for men being under 45, women under 55, we know those are pathologic. With that being said, I do generally, when I see someone with an LDL that's “abnormal.” I want more information and I actually don't think 148 for an LDL is all that bad. What you want is more information. You want an advanced lipid analysis, you want to look at particle size. This is super important because not all LDL is bad. 

I think we have to start really re-familiarizing ourselves. This includes healthcare professionals and the general public. There are a lot of physicians, and nurses, and nurse practitioners who are practicing with 30-year-old medicine. I see it all the time because I get this question probably five or six times a week. The first thing is you need more information. You need to do an advanced lipid analysis, we used to call it a VAP. I'm not sure what your insurance coverage will cover or even if your physician or nurse practitioner even going to order this, but it is generally covered by insurance. It's looking at LDL particle size. You want light and fluffy like light, fluffy, non-atherogenic. LDL cholesterol is benign. That's actually what I have. Number two, if it's small and dense and you also have concomitant risk factors for cardiovascular disease, or you are insulin resistant, or diabetic, then you've got work to do. Generally, first line of defense is lifestyle management. Can intermittent fasting be part of that? Absolutely. Have I read anything that suggests that you're going to have a worsening of your lipid panel relevant to fasting? No, but it's interesting. 

I always think about Dave Feldman's work. He's an engineer, entrepreneur, and he is doing research in this area. He's changing the way clinicians are practicing because of the work that he's doing. There's actually something called a Lean Mass Hyper Responder. It is beyond the scope of this discussion, but I highly recommend you check out my podcast that I did with him at the tail end of 2020. He's doing a lot of really interesting research. There are a lot of people who actually in a low carb, ketogenic fasted state will actually produce more cholesterol, but it's not pathogenic. I definitely encourage you to dig a little bit deeper, get those advanced lipid analysis done, they are covered by insurance. Not all LDL is bad and I want that to die a death on a hill, because there are a lot of people that are stressed and worried needlessly. 

The other thing that I want to reemphasize is, we do not want our total cholesterol to be too low. When someone says it's high, my question is always quantify it. When you're sending us questions, please tell us how old you are and [chuckles] please tell us, what it is that? If it's too high, tell me what that is, tell me what the lab is, so that I can at least lay my eyes on it. But I would say don't fast because of your concerns relevant to total cholesterol, which is bogus. Not saying you're bogus, but the claims that fasting is somehow going to hurt your cholesterol are bogus. The other thing is if you're told that your LDL is “too high,” you want more information before you get yourself into a panic.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was very comprehensive and you have so much more of a knowledge base about this than I do. So, I'm super grateful for that. The only thing I will add to it is that if you google, go to Google Scholar, you can actually find a lot of studies looking at fasting and cardiovascular health. I'll put links in the show notes to one I found because it was about this specifically. It was time restricted eating to improve cardiovascular health and it was a 2021 review. Looking at everything, but basically, it concluded that the effects of fasting on cholesterol tend to improve parameters when it comes to that and decrease total cholesterol, even though I know Cynthia was just talking about that's not necessarily always the thing, but does it have a beneficial effect on LDL? Interestingly, some studies sometimes don't find any effects on HDL. Not really sure what's going on there, but in general fasting seems to have a beneficial effect on our cholesterol panels. Something that people can experience is an increase in cholesterol transiently due to weight loss. So, that can be something to consider because basically if you're freeing up all of the stored fat, and triglycerides, and it can lead to a transient increase in cholesterol levels. But it's not necessarily-- It doesn't mean that they're increasing over the long term. Then one other last thing I was going to mention-- what was it? Wait, it'll come to me.

Cynthia Thurlow: One thing I just wanted to say while you're thinking about that is, you think about the reduction in inflammation, and oxidative stress, and the improvement in mitochondrial efficiency relevant to vis-à-vis, eating less frequently and changing your macros is pretty significant. That's just something to keep in mind. I think unfortunately, we, and I say we as an allopathic trained physicians and nurses many times just are so reactionary instead of thinking, “What could be going on?” I try to be very, very respectful of my peers and there are a lot of people doing some tremendous work, but this is definitely an area of medicine that I’ve gotten more and more outspoken about that we really need to turn the tide and stop focusing on the wrong parameters.

Melanie Avalon: I thought of it and also I'm so glad that you said that because that was something I wanted to touch on was, I think it can be a little bit nearsighted to just look at fasting, because with Deborah's question, she's talking about fasting was the thing that raised her LDL, which unlikely to me, but the broader context of the effects of dietary interventions is just huge. I would look at diet as a key player in your cholesterol. But the two things I just thought of, one was, I interviewed Azure Grant on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Her focus is actually ultradian rhythms. Basically, the different time rhythms in cells and she's done a lot of work that helped influence the work of Oura Ring. That's how I was connected to her through Harpreet, who used to be the CEO of Oura. But in any case, she has a fascinating study where they tested cholesterol levels and a group of people constantly throughout the day, which is super cool. These people were testing their cholesterol, which must have been very unpleasant with all of the pricks, but all throughout the day. The fluctuations in the levels were crazy. Every single person at some point during the day had a result that went into the pathological levels, even if they probably didn't have a pathological panel. 

The point of that is that when you test, it was 148, but if you had tested at a different time during that day, it might have been completely different. I think that's why it's actually important to be regularly monitoring these things. I use InsideTracker to keep all of my data together and it's amazing because I can see over time. I put my cholesterol panels in there because we can get really microscopic, and just see this one result, and it can be hard to see the overall picture of like, “What does my panel look like in general? Where am I moving, where am I trending, how are the different levels relating?” I have my cholesterol levels since I started using InsideTracker in 2019. And looking at those graphs, it has been very, very helpful for me, I think get a more, I guess, telling picture of what's happening. But yeah, a lot of good stuff. I got to interview Dave Feldman some time.

Cynthia Thurlow: He's amazing. We spoke together at Keto Salt Lake, and that was the first time I had met him, and my husband got to meet him in person. Dave went on a tangent talking to me to a level that at one point, I was like, “Dave, you just blew my mind.” He's absolutely one of the smartest people I've ever met and just brilliant. He's doing cutting edge research in relationship to LDL particles, and cholesterol, and he's really changing the narrative for medicine, and I'm just so very grateful to have had the opportunity to speak with him, and also be his friends. I would absolutely encourage you to connect with him. He's just so smart. He'll blow your mind. [laughs] He'll have a good meeting of the minds with him for sure.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated by all of the cholesterol stuff because it is just so debated. There are some really intense camps. It's confusing. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode271. The show notes will have all of the links to everything that we talked about, which was a lot of stuff, as well as a full transcript. So, definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and our joint account is @ifpodcast. So, definitely check that out. All righty, well, Cynthia, enjoy your trip.

Cynthia Thurlow: I can't wait. I'm so excited. I'll be posting as much as I can photos of our journey. But I'm really so excited and it's been a very exciting last six months, but I am ready to disconnect and get rejuvenated. We took a big vacation in December and I planned this at the same time knowing that I would need it, and I'm so glad that I did.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I am so excited for you. I can't wait to see and hear all about it. Actually, I'm glad we're talking about this now. For listeners, since Cynthia will be traveling, next week, we're going to air an episode that I did recently with Rick Johnson. Cynthia and I are both major fans of Rick. His work is so mind blowing. Get really excited because I think you guys are really going to enjoy it. That'll be next week. So, all righty, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you in two weeks.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good, my friend. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

Welcome to Episode 248 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. 

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes From Our Great Interview With Robb Wolf!

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The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

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Listener Q&A: Keri - Seeking Patience and Answers. My Saga and road to IF

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #117 - Tim Spector

The Delay, Don't Deny Community

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This Naked Mind: Control Alcohol, Find Freedom, Discover Happiness, and Change Your Life

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

Episode 125: Roxi

Episode 50: Renee and Joel

Episode 170: Kristi Osborn

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 248 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean, fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps, and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting. Here's what's going on.  

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially, sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more. 

Guess what? We worked out an exclusive deal for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast listeners only. Guys, this is huge. They weren't going to do a deal, I begged them, here we are. You can get a free LMNT sampler pack. We're not talking a discount, we're talking free. Completely free. You only pay $5 for shipping. If you don't love it, they will even refund you the $5 for shipping. I'm not kidding. The sample pack includes eight packets of LMNT, two Citrus, two Raspberry, two Orange, and two Raw Unflavored. The Raw Unflavored ones are the ones that are safe for your clean fast and the other ones you can have in your eating window. Word on the street is the citrus flavor makes an amazing margarita, by the way.  

I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will, too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on and on top of that, their products actually work that's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 248 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I am fabulous. It is January 2nd and I was late putting up my Christmas decorations this year. So, I took them down earlier than usual. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I was going to ask you. I've been stressing about the proper time to take them down. I was going to take them down today.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I follow the, like, take them down to the 12 days of Christmas kind of a thing. So, therefore, January 5th would be the official or 6th depending on what you count as day one, I don't know. But right around January 5th or 6th.  

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I thought the 12 days of Christmas ended on Christmas.  

Gin Stephens: No, that's when it begins.  

Melanie Avalon: What? Are you sure?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There's the season in the Christian faith called epiphany. That's the name of the season. If you look up epiphany. 

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I feel good. I typed in when are the-- It is the 4th search. People are wondering.  

Gin Stephens: [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to know what the first three are?  

Gin Stephens: What do you mean? The first three what?  

Melanie Avalon: What people are searching for when they search for? When are the- 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: -college football playoffs, Winter Olympics, Grammys, 12 Days of Christmas.  

Gin Stephens: Love it. 

Melanie Avalon: Then, Oscars. Whoa.  

Gin Stephens: What? 

Melanie Avalon: Mind blown. I always thought the 12 days of Christmas ended on Christmas.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See, Gin knows her stuff about stuff. [laughs] So, officially, I always keep it up till later. But I've got so much going on this week. Yesterday, I was like, I'll just take down a few things and leave up the trees. And then, I was in such a roll and I was already all dirty from taking dusty stuff and whatever, and then, I'm like, "I'm just doing it." So, I did it. So, my house is un-Christmased, whatever. un-Christmased. That is a hard word to say. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I feel so much better now. I was stressing about-- Because this is my first time having my own tree, and I was like, "When do I take it down?" Okay, I thought I was late.  

Gin Stephens: No. I was just early and was a little sad. But like I said, I was on a roll, so, I did it, and here we are 2022. Officially, our first time talking in the New Year.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. A question for you. I asked you this before, but you sent me a Christmas tree that is in a pot. What do you think will happen if I keep it in the pot? Will it overtake the container? What I was asking you before is, they say that goldfish, and I don't know if this is true, because I just briefly googled it, and I think it might not be true. But I'd always heard that goldfish grow to the size of their container. So, that's why like when you have a goldfish at home, it's small, but if the goldfish in ponds are big.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't know the answer to either of those questions because I am the last person to ask about how to keep a plant alive. So, Chad does all keeping plants alive and I keep other things alive, like, children and cats. [laughs] He keeps plants alive. Here's what I always do. I keep it in the pot until it dies, and then I throw it away. Now, when I was a teacher, one year Chad gave me this beautiful orchid on the first day of school, and I kept it in my classroom, and it was beautiful, and then it died. There was another teacher at my school who saves things. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, you know about orchids?  

Gin Stephens: I don't know anything about orchids, but I know that my friend, who was like, "I can save that." So, I gave it to her instead of throwing it away.  

Melanie Avalon: Fun fact because Gin and I have the same agent. All the people that I worked with there, so, the main agent and then two assistants, they're actually agents now, I sent them an orchid plant, three of them. It was so perfect. They came in three different colors. So, I was like, they can pick whatever color they want. Are you ready? So, the orchid blooms once a year. It "dies," but it comes back. So, it might not have been dead.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I gave it to her. Normally, I just would throw them away, and then I felt bad. Here's my whole rationalizing this. I felt bad. I'm like, "This plant died and then then I had to throw it away, and that's like a waste of a good plant." Then I'm like, "Wait a minute. Anytime we cut flowers, since you cut flowers, they die and you throw them away."  

Melanie Avalon: And it probably wasn't even dead.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Hopefully, she revived it.  

Melanie Avalon: The thing is, I had never realized this. So, I put everywhere in the note. I explain this because I didn't want them to think it died, because they were dyed. 

Gin Stephens: Brittle looking?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, the flowers were dyed. D-Y. Dyed colors. It said that it would die and then it would come back, but it would be its normal orchid color. So, then, I sent them a follow up email and I was like, "Maybe this is common knowledge. But just FYI about those orchids."  

Gin Stephens: No, no, when I think an orchid is dead, it's not that the flower falls off. It's that the entire stem is now brown and twiggy looking. That's what I call it, it's dead now. Not just because the flowers fell off. I mean, I do know if it's still green just because the flower fell off, that doesn't mean it's dead. But once the stem would get twiggy, actually, I do know my friend did save it. When I said, I hope she saved it, she did. She told me she did.  

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of plants, this is actually so perfect, unplanned. I interviewed Farmer Lee Jones last week.  

Gin Stephens: His book is beautiful.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin. So, up until this point, so, I've had over a hundred something guests on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Up until this point, everybody's been really incredible, really amazing, a lot of people are really passionate, but when I'd interviewed Wim Hof, he was just like another level of passion. Everybody was like at this kind of hit this glass ceiling of passion, and then he was just lightyears ahead. Farmer Lee Jones is on the Wim Hof spectrum of passion. He was yelling at the microphone. I was like, "Oh, my goodness." He was incredible. I have never felt so inspired to support regenerative agriculture, and bring back nutrient density, and revive our soil, and take charge of our health through growing better food. This man is incredible. He's so amazing. So, for listeners when that episode comes out, definitely check it out. The entire time I was just smiling. I was watching myself having the interview and I was just smiling. Can you imagine if everybody had that type of energy, what type of world we would live in?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I know.  

Melanie Avalon: So, it was amazing.  

Gin Stephens: That's great. Oh, I'm actually, finally listening to Why We Get Sick.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Dr. Gregor.  

Gin Stephens: No, no. Benjamin Bikman.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's how not to die.  

Gin Stephens: You had Benjamin Bikman on your podcast, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, I loved that. Oh, he's amazing.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Spoiler alert, insulin. [laughs] But it is everything I already thought and he's saying it, I mean I haven't gotten all the way in but so far, the beginning talking about hyperinsulinemia. 

Melanie Avalon: [sighs] I remember when I was doing all that and I was like, "Gin, read this book." It's basically like the insulin manifesto.  

Gin Stephens: It really, really is. What inspired me to go ahead and get it as someone in my community said that it was available included through Audible Plus, with their new Audible Plus Catalog where you don't have to use a credit for it. You just can listen. 

Melanie Avalon: I haven't used that yet.  

Gin Stephens: What Audible Plus?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-mm. 

Gin Stephens: I've always just had Audible and didn't ever join it. I just had it as my audiobook library and I would just buy a book. I didn't buy very many. But now, I'm driving to the beach and back-- 

Melanie Avalon: Sorry to interrupt. So, this is different then, because I have a membership with credits.  

Gin Stephens: This is the Plus membership. They have a new membership level, the Audible Plus. 

Melanie Avalon: And this book is on it?  

Gin Stephens: And you still get a credit, but you also have more things that you can listen to that are included that don't take credits and this is one of them. It's got good stuff in there. It's not just like, stuff you don't want to listen to that you can listen to for free. No, it's stuff you do want to listen to and it's included and you don't have to use a credit. So, that finally got me to pull the trigger on getting Audible as a membership, especially, now that I'm driving to the beach so much and in the sauna I can listen. So, I'm finally listening to something. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm obsessed with Audible. Actually, for listeners, because right now, as of the time of recording I'm not sure if they're still sponsoring the show. We were actually booked on inventory but I'm so passionate about them that might see if I can keep them in. So, if we do have a code for them right now, because this airs in January. I'll put in the show notes. We probably do.  

Gin Stephens: They do sponsor IF Stories. I just read an ad for them today, but yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: There probably is still an offer at the link, listeners, if you go to audible.com/ifpodcast or text IF PODCAST to 500-500. Well, I'm glad, Gin that you are on the Audible train with me now. Audible is like my life.  

Gin Stephens: It's funny as an author of course. As soon as our books come out, you find like a typo, right? You're like, "Oh, they're--" I was just looking through Clean(ish) and they've already been printed, and of course, by this time, they come out, everybody will have them already, because we're past the date that will be released when this podcast releases. But as soon as I got my copy of the final version, I look, there's some kind of weird typo in one of the reflect and take action sections, and it's clearly just an extra character got inserted, because it's not a letter of the alphabet in the middle of a word, like an and or something. I don’t know.  

In the middle of the word, someone just leaned on their typewriter, I don't know, or their keyboard. I'm like, "Well, there's one right there." But that was not in the original document. But typos get in there all throughout the way. But I was listening to Why We Get Sick today, and an entire paragraph was repeated. I swear, I just heard that exact-- 

Melanie Avalon: In the audiobook.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.  

Gin Stephens: It exactly is in there twice. So, I'm like, I don't care how many people are part of the process, things happen. It makes you feel better when you see in other places, because you want your work to be perfect, but perfection is an illusion.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I told you this before on the show, but when my narrator recorded my audiobook, she did find an error in mine, but she said every single book she's ever recorded has always had an error.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Also, one of the websites that I mentioned as a resource no longer exists and I hate that. Because it existed all the way through, and even when we checked it, and all the way through all the final, and then, all of a sudden, it's not there anymore. I'm like, "Great." [laughs] So, people would be like, "I can't find that website." I'm just waiting for the emails to start. Yes, it doesn't exist anymore. Sorry. The internet is elite living thing and it changes.  

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get 15% off of my favorite bone broth, which is an incredible way to open your eating window. I've been talking about the incredible health effects of bone broth for years. Bone broth is so nourishing for our body. It's rich in collagen, which can really support your gut health, your skin, curb cravings, boost your energy and your immunity, but there are a lot of brands out there, a lot of them have ingredients that I don't like, and making it yourself can also be very time consuming. That's why I am thrilled about Beauty & the Broth. So, Beauty & the Broth was created by Melissa Bolona. She's an incredible actress and entrepreneur. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But Melissa started Beauty & the Broth after she realized the profound effect that bone broth was having on her own health specifically, gut issues, and its ability to give her radiant skin perfect for the camera. She founded Beauty & the Broth which hits everything I could want in bone broth. It uses 100% whole organic ingredients. Yes, it is certified USDA organic. It is one of the only few bone broth companies in the entire US that has a USDA certification for organic bone broth. It has no artificial flavors, no preservatives, no phthalates, no sugar, and something that I love no salt. 

Friends even other bone broth that I really love always have salt added. This doesn't. Her bone broths are made from grass-fed ranch raised beef and vegetarian-fed free range chicken bones from Certified Humane USDA Organic Farms and all certified organic vegetables are used in the broth as well. There're no antibiotics, no hormones, only the good stuff. Here's the super cool thing about Beauty & the Broth. It can be a little bit of a hassle to transport bone broth. It's heavy, you have to keep it frozen. Guess what? Beauty & the Broth comes in shelf stable packets with no preservatives that you keep at room temperature and they are in concentrated form. That means that you add back water to reconstitute and you can make it any strength that you like. They're single servings, so you can take them with you on the go and even on the plane, as yes, they are three ounces and they're delicious. Oh, my goodness, friends, they will just make you light up. They're honestly one of the most amazing things I've ever tasted. So, if you've been looking to finally jump on the bone broth train, do it now and do it with Beauty & the Broth. And Melissa has an amazing offer just for our listeners. You can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com or melanieavalon.com/broth and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 15% off. That's thebeautyandthebroth.com with the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. All of the listeners who have tried it, ever since I aired my episode with Melissa have talked about how much they love it. It is so delicious. You guys will definitely love it. So, definitely check that out.  

By the way, bone broth does break your fast. So, this is something that you want to have in your eating window. In fact, it's an amazing way to open your eating window because when you're in that fasted state, when you take in bone broth as the first thing, all of those rich nutrients and collagen go straight to your gut, help heal your gut, help with leaky gut, help digestive issues. And again, you can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com and use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a very long question. It's from Carrie. Carrie, I cut down your question a lot. But it has a lot of good stuff in it, and a lot of good questions, and a lot of stuff to discuss. So, I thought we could just tackle it. This question comes from Carrie. The subject is: "Seeking patient answers, my saga and road to IF." Carrie says, "Hey, Melanie and Gin, I'm 46 and I started IF-ing two and a half months ago to lose weight. I haven't lost a pound yet nor an inch. Clothes still fit the same too. But I do love the convenience of it and the way I feel while I am fasting, energy, clarity, productivity. I clean fast. I was pretty sure drinking black coffee and giving up my Coffee-mate would cause certain death and it still hasn't. I haven't read any of your books but I did just start What When Wine this week. I chose that one because my story is very similar to Melanie's. So, I went with that one first in hopes of finding help.  

In May 2013, I had my appendix out. A couple of weeks later I got a sinus infection and they put me on, I'm thinking it's an antibiotic, which wrecked my gut bad. I was also nursing our third kid. The doctor said, I should do the BRAT diet which is Bananas, Rice, Applesauce and Toast. A week or two later, I got a positive C. diff test, more antibiotics, it worked. The C. diff was gone and eventually, I felt like myself again. Over a year later, I was training for another half marathon and doing daily HIIT for training. I was tracking calories and MyFitnessPal, and I never want to do that again. I lost 15 pounds which was the rest of my baby weight and I was very happy. But while the weight was coming off other things were starting. Anxiety, panic attacks, brain fog and hives. If I bumped my arm or leg on an edge or the counter or something that scratched it, I would end up with hives. In hindsight I think all the training and running exacerbated gut problems from all the antibiotics, but I have no proof.  

By the end of the summer, I gained 40 pounds. In spring, 2016, a chiropractor who does kinesiology put me on herbs for a liver parasite and liver virus. I added essential oils and that helped not needing Zyrtec. In 2017, she said she started a, it is a name brand 'Weight Loss Drink' thing. She says, eventually, the brain fog and anxiety cleared and I lost 15 pounds, but I plateaued and quit those. In 2019, I gained the 15 pounds back even though I ate very healthy 80% to 90% of the time. June 2020, a naturopathic practitioner put me on some remedies from Europe to support my organs. My once very poor digestion has improved, but it still has its poor movements. I did a parasite detox remedy and a heavy metal detox. I had my fillings replaced. Believe it or not, I had tiny pieces of metal coming out of my skin. I would be skeptical if I hadn't lived it. All of my traditional blood tests are always normal. A few elimination diets, food tests, which change every time, my thyroid appears fine. Now, I'm contemplating a SIBO test. It's like throwing noodles against the wall and waiting for something to stick. There's a reason I'm going through this, I just haven't discovered it yet.  

I did start that 'Weight Loss Drink' company thing again a couple of months ago because it worked the first time until it didn't. Now, it's almost 2022 and I still have 40 pounds. If not for your podcast, I'm sure, I'd have jumped ship by now. But you two keep me afloat in this sea of confusion. I fast a minimum of 16 hours, sometimes, up to 20 to 21. Eat later in the day, so I can eat with the family at night. IF worked for me in all the ways, except the one that outward shows every day and my clothes size, clothes comfort, self-esteem etc. I have three active kids and I cannot keep up with them at this size. I'm 5'4" and I currently weigh 175 pounds on a small frame. I spent so much time researching and going down rabbit holes. For exercise, I love walking and yoga. I don't do it regularly because it's not helping. I used to focus on 10,000 steps a day, but I've lost my motivation and discipline. One of the reasons I can't lose weight is also probably because I'm stressed.  

I also love wine and beer. Beer for socializing and I'm very good at it. I do try to get organic wines, I'm anxious to get to that part of the book that discusses it. I admittedly drink too much alcohol. It's how I deal with stress. I drink nearly a gallon of water daily. A couple of random things to share, I started serrapeptase a while back not for anything specific, but to see if something happened, I wouldn't have thought of. The verdict is still out on that. I did the ZOE program. While interesting, the foods still require tracking and I really don't want to track anything, and maybe, I misunderstood the program, but healthy foods were what was encouraged and less healthy were not. They seemed geared towards plant based and I'm not plant based. I was born to eat meat as well." 

Gin Stephens: That actually is the point of ZOE is teaching you what is healthy for your body so they're going to give those higher scores. That's the point. They are encouraging you to eat what will help your microbiome be healthy. They don't want you to eliminate plants, though. They're not like, "No, don't eat any meat." We're also not trying to get a score of a one hundred. So, I think that's where a lot of people get confused when they do ZOE, because they're not trying to teach you, only eat these foods that give your body a hundred, a score of hundred and don't eat anything else. It's wanting you to live in the real world by encouraging you to emphasize certain foods and de-emphasize other ones, if that makes sense.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm very, very impressed with their-- 

Gin Stephens: Support.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You're connected with somebody who can answer your questions, and I've been drilling them on some of the questions I have about some of the foods in the app, and they've been very good at getting me really detailed answers. I do agree that I think it is very plant based. Some of it, I think is a little bit off with the meat and the seafood just as far as some of the things that it recommends. But in general, the concept that it's addressing is processing fats versus glucose like carbs and that effect. Then, the foods have to do with effects they've seen in the gut microbiome. I think it's a really helpful app and it's really interesting seeing feedback, especially, my Facebook group. Some people are like, "This is a game changer, this completely helped me break through a plateau, I feel better." For some people, it tells them what they feel like they already knew, and then, some people, especially people I think who are more low carb parts of it don't quite resonate. But either way, regardless the information that you get with the CGM and the gut microbiome test, there's a lot to learn there. So, it's really cool. I'll put a link in the show notes. I interviewed Tim Spector, the founder. So, that was a really, really cool conversation.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I'm talking to him. When this comes out, what, is this comes out on the 17th? I'm talking to him on the 19th. We're doing a webinar in my community. We've never actually talked, even though, he wrote the foreword to Clean(ish), we've never actually talked. So, we're going to do a webinar only available for members of the Delay, Don't Deny Community. Go to ginstephens.com/community. You still have time to get there. But the replay will be there in the community as well. That's the only place it will be available. But they're very gut focused. So, that is why they're encouraging the foods that will feed your gut really, really well.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Just we're talking about little pieces as we go. I want to say briefly about the serrapeptase. So that's the supplement that we've been talking about for a while on this show and I finally developed my own, which is very exciting, and it's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm, and when you take it in fasted state, it actually goes into your bloodstream and it breaks down potentially problematic proteins. So, things that your body might be reacting to, it can help address. So, inflammation, allergies, it can clear your sinuses. Things on the backburner that you might not quite notice but you need to be on it long-term to possibly see difference in your bloodwork would be things like it can break down fatty deposits, and it may reduce cholesterol, it just has a myriad of potential benefits, wound healing.  

It's really interesting to see because so many people in my audience have been getting it, and some people go to it with a very specific goal like, "I want to clear my sinuses," and people have really been seeing that. Some people are more like Carrie, where they're not quite sure what they're taking it for. But I just know for me personally, I think it has a very just general synergistic helpful effect on the body like fasting does in a way. So, if you'd like to get your own, it's at avalonx.us. 

Gin Stephens: All right, well, if we're going back, I have one more thing that I highlighted that was farther back. The part about alcohol and she said, "I admittedly drink too much alcohol." and it's how she deals with stress. I'm going to just come right out and say, Melanie and I have a different recommendation when it comes to how much alcohol might support weight loss are affect it negatively, and I think a lot of it is your own bio individuality. But for me, alcohol, when I was trying to lose weight absolutely stalled my weight loss. Like the period of time when I was trying to get to my goal weight, I didn't have alcohol for about 10 weeks at all, and I really focused on eating real foods. I didn't count fat grams, I didn't count carbs, I didn't count calories. I just didn't eat ultra-processed foods. I didn't drink alcohol. I lost two pounds a week. My body did so much better. Over the holidays, yes, I'm still drinking Dry Farm Wines. Yes, I love it. But my body doesn't feel it's best, even if I drink too much Dry Farm Wine. So, to feel my best, I'm better with zero alcohol, am I going to be alcohol free for the rest of my life? No. But if I wanted to lose weight and I knew I was-- If I actually said the sentence, "I admittedly drink too much alcohol." I would really start there.  

If you're worried like, "Oh, my gosh, I can't stop drinking alcohol, I just can't. How am I going to have fun?" Well, that's really when you need to start looking at how much you're drinking. And that's where I would recommend the book This Naked Mind. Annie Grace is the author, and I read it, and I was like, "Wow." Because I always have this, like you said, beers for socializing. I almost like that, too. I was like, "If I get together with my college friends, we're going to be drinking. That's what we do. We always have." So, the first time we got together, I was having a month where I wasn't drinking at all, and I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to tell them till we get there." It sounds like, they're going to be like, I'm not even coming or whatever and then when I got there and I'm like, "I'm not drinking, surprise." They're like, "Oh, okay, that's weird but that's fine." So, I was the designated driver, I had just as much fun, I socialized great, and I felt great the next day. So, I just really want you to-- Like I said, This Naked Mind, consider that book. It really will make you think about your alcohol consumption even if you like me decide you're not going to be alcohol free. But if you feel like you're drinking too much, I would not hesitate to read this immediately. Sorry, I had to pop that in there.  

Melanie Avalon: No, no, no. I'm really excited for her to get to my section on the book on alcohol and I agree. I think it's super context dependent on two things. Before that, I think there is something different between having what a person would consider minimal or moderate alcohol and trying to lose weight by adjusting it compared to knowing that you're probably overdrinking and wanting to lose weight. Like that's two different situations in my head. As far as the context, I think, people can be very different in how they metabolize alcohol. And then, also, I think the context of the diet that you're having it with is huge. So, for example, like for Gin, it sounds like for you, you would rather cut out the alcohol, that's an extreme approach to the alcohol compared to a more extreme approach to the food. 

Gin Stephens: Well, for me, I learned through the DNA testing that my body metabolizes alcohol slowly. Some people metabolize caffeine slowly, I don't. But my body does metabolize alcohol slowly. So, my liver has to work on the alcohol like, we had that breathalyzer that would test your ketones, I actually was using that for a long time, I don't know about a year ago or a little before a year ago. When I would drink, it would vastly affect the amount of ketones I would produce the next day. To the point like, it would take me a while to get it. My liver was busy processing alcohol for a long time is what I'm saying. So, it really affected my body. If I want to lose fat, my liver needs to not be busy processing alcohol.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I guess, what I meant about the food context is, so, I don't want to use Carrie as an example because she's admitted that she does think she overdrinks. But for another person who is moderately drinking and not losing weight, so, one option might be cutting out the alcohol completely and seeing what happens, or another option might be keeping in the alcohol and adjusting the food more, and either of those situations could potentially lead to progress.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely. But putting them together, one, two, I think would also very likely supercharge it for almost anybody. I just really feel that way. 

Melanie Avalon: That's the thing I actually don't know.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But I do want people to try it, just to see if they think. I don't know. Go ahead.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm just going to say, I'm not actually-- and I talk about this a lot in What When Wine. So, people can check that out if they'd like to learn more. But I think some people might lose more if they're really intense on the food but still having alcohol, just because of some of the ways that alcohol does affect metabolism, and its thermogenic effect, and its effect on insulin, and especially like wine, potentially its effect on insulin, its effect on like a few different things. I think some people, let's say that the diet is controlled and it's a certain type of controlled diet, be it macros, Whole Foods, whatever it is, some people might lose more actually having wine with it, and I'm saying wine, but some people might not.  

Gin Stephens: I think probably a lot of it has to do with whether you're a good alcohol metabolizer or not. I've just seen my effects over time knowing how I feel. Also, having that feedback from the breathalyzer showing how it really affected how long it took me to get into ketosis versus when I didn't have it. I mean, that's huge for me. So, it would just be something I would always recommend as a tool in the toolbox for somebody.  

Melanie Avalon: I will say, if you are drinking wine, specifically drink Dry Farm Wines. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I went out on New Year's and we went to two different places, and the first place I went, I was able to get a wine that I had looked up the winery, like I'm pretty sure it probably wasn't as low alcohol as Dry Farm Wines or as low sugar, but I can tell now when I drink a wine at a restaurant that's not from Dry Farm Wines. I can pretty much tell if it's approaching the Dry Farm Wines spectrum. So, that one was and I was like, "Okay, I'm good." But then we went to another bar, and I got the only organic one I could find. But now, I can just so tell how high in alcohol and sugar, a lot of wines are. I wasn't hung over or anything but I had a tiny, tiny little headache and I was like, "Oh, my goodness. I got to stay with my Dry Farm Wines." So, if listeners would like to get Dry Farm Wines, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and they can get a bottle for a penny there.  

I do have a question for listeners. I was brainstorming actually on New Year's Eve with one of my friends. Let me know, would you be interested and I'm contemplating developing an app that would, I know there's so many wines in the world, but you would look up wines and it would tell you if they're organic, or sustainable, or biodynamic, like that would just be so helpful for me personally, when I'm out at restaurants. Let me know if that would be something of interest for people. 

Gin Stephens: I think it would be of interest, but there really are so many different- 

Melanie Avalon: Wines. 

Gin Stephens: -wines that I don't know how you would compile that. Because some are produced in small amounts and here's what I do. I always stick to, if I'm out, I try to get something from France. [laughs] That's my metric. You know, France. If it's made in France, it's smaller kind of a thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, actually, so, my people, if they want to know my protocol, I look at the wine list. I don't even look at US. I don't. 

Gin Stephens: No. Not at a restaurant.  

Melanie Avalon: I look at the European ones, and then, I google the winery, and this is why I want to make this app. I google the winery and you'd be really surprised how many of them actually are implementing organic practices. The thing that Dry Farm Wines goes one step beyond is, they test the wines on top of that to make sure they are organic, and free of pesticides, and free of mold. But then they also test the alcohol and the sugar content, which when you're drinking low sugar, low alcohol wines, it's just such a massive difference. But yeah, the reason I'm thinking it's doable is the Vivino app I love and you scan bottles with it and it comes up with the bottle, and people write reviews, and it has all the information, and it has almost every wine that I scan ever so it's possible to do. Let me know listeners if that would be something of interest.  

Back to Carrie. She says, "I feel like my body is not my own even after all these years of battling the things I have not grown accustomed to it. I feel like I am battling it all the time, but I do not know why. I cannot figure out what is wrong and that is hard for me because I am a fixer." And then, what's interesting is, Carrie sent us this whole email and she didn't mention what she's eating, which is something I actually want to talk about. I emailed her to ask, what she's eating? And she said, "I eat meat, seafood, eggs, lots of veggies, salads with homemade vinaigrette, feta or parmesan, and toasted walnuts or pecans, a variety of fruits, fats, butter, avocado, olive oil, occasional cheese, processed foods like tortilla chips, occasional candy, especially, when the kids share Halloween candy, taco shells, occasional desserts, basmati rice a few times a month. I rarely eat bread and when I do its usually Ezekiel, no milk, sometimes a tiny bowl of ice cream but again once a month, a little sour cream. We do not eat out a ton because we're busy with the kids and work. I'm not perfect with my diet partly because I know it's not sustainable and if I try and fail, I will just say, nope."  

I want to circle back to this. She says, "So, I try to make the best choices as often as I can. Sometimes, I have the cupcake the kids didn't take to Boy Scouts. So, I guess my questions for you are, here we go. Number one, "Podcast listening. I love it. But should I continue working my way through it," because she has started at the beginning, "Or start with the most current and go backwards?" I'm about three years behind right now." I thought this was a really great question. I don't think anybody's ever asked us this before.  

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think so either.  

Melanie Avalon: Gin, what are your thoughts?  

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I feel like I might would start with the most current and go backwards. When we started, so many things have changed. For example, remember when we like the first year, we got that question about CBD oil and we're like, "We think that might be illegal. Don't do that." [laughs] And now, it's like there's a CBD store on every block, right? 

Melanie Avalon: I was just thinking about that. I was ordering some more Feals and I was like, "Wow, things have come so far."  

Gin Stephens: Because we're like, "I don't know. It's against the law probably. Don't use that." Times have changed so much. So, probably listening to the early ones might even be like a hilarious. [laughs] I don’t know.  

Melanie Avalon: I probably suggest doing-- so, the way I handle podcast is-- so, I listen to the new ones as they're coming out, and then, well it depends on what type of show it is. But then, I usually go back and find the episodes that look intriguing and listen to them. But yeah, you could binge listen. A lot of people tell us that. A lot of people write in and say that they're starting at the beginning. I'd be really curious to know how many people, in general, our listeners-- our new listeners, how they approach it. Like, do they go back? That's a good question.  

Gin Stephens: I would definitely listen to the new ones as they come out and also Intermittent Fasting Stories. If people are not listening to that one yet, that's one that I think-- and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I would be more likely to listen to recent of all of them versus going deep dive way back in the archives, unless, you're really looking for something to listen to, and then, that would be tell us the funniest thing you heard from Episode Two or whatever we know. Anyway, I just think we would probably cringe at some of the things we might have said early on.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's such a different format, like the Biohacking Podcast would definitely be one. It doesn't-- 

Gin Stephens: It's not sequential.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like episodic. So, any-- 

Gin Stephens: Same with IF Stories. 

Melanie Avalon: You would basically just go on the topics that you want to listen to. This one it's a lot of the same topic but yeah, it's a good question. So, number two is, "Two and a half months with zero results a thing. All the questions I've heard, no one else asked about going this long with no weight loss. I keep listening, thinking someday someone will ask all the same questions and the clouds will part, the angels will sing, and I'll know what to do." So, two and a half months with zero results.  

Gin Stephens: All right. So, here is a place where Intermittent Fasting Stories can come to the rescue. There are lots of episodes. Lots and lots of episodes out there, but two that really stand out for me as episodes for going a long time with no weight loss. One of the most recent ones that I did has still been a while. Episode 125, Roxi. If you just go to like Google and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories, Roxi, it'll help you find Roxi's episode. But Roxi started intermittent fasting, she was feeling great, she was rolling along, losing no weight at all. Then, she went back to her doctor and had a re-check. She had been diagnosed with fatty liver disease before she started fasting. Doing intermittent fasting for all these months, went back to the doctor, her fatty liver disease was completely reversed, but she hadn't lost any weight. So, it didn't show up on the scale, but clearly her body was busy doing something, which is pretty exciting.  

Now, there's another episode to look at. Oh, and by the way, I just want to say imagine, if Roxi had quit, because she thought it wasn't working for her. "Oh, this isn't working. I'm going to quit." She was clearing out a fatty liver. So, eventually she did go on to start losing pounds on the scale and she's gotten smaller or sizes changed, but that episode just really always inspires me and her story.  

Melanie Avalon: How much did she weigh?  

Gin Stephens: I don't remember the weight exactly but she was overweight.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm just wondering if she was obese.  

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure exactly whether she was in the obese category or not but she definitely had the fatty liver. So, having a fatty liver, it's not something you want. So, here's another story that is, it's Episode 50, and it's Renee and Joel. They are mother-son. Renee is the mother, Joel is the son, and when they started intermittent fasting, they both started it at the same time. He did not lose a single pound for the first eight months of doing IF. But in the ninth month, the weight just started to fall right off, he didn't change a thing, just boom. The weight started to go and he lost the 20 pounds that he wanted to lose after eight months of losing nothing. So, listen to those two stories.  

The thing is that something is happening in the body. You know what was going on in Joel's body? I don't know. Maybe, his insulin was coming down. Listening to this, Why We Get Sick? If he had hyperinsulinemia, insulin is such a storage hormone. It may be all that was happening for eight months is his body's fasted insulin level, his level of circulating insulin that goes around all the time was going down, down, down, down, down. Then, when it got to a certain point, bam he was able to lose the weight he wanted to lose. That 20 pounds dropped off so quickly after nothing.  

Melanie Avalon: That's like Gary Taubes' theory about the insulin threshold. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely. I totally believe that could be a factor. For Roxi, fatty liver, fatty liver, fatty liver, bam. All of a sudden, she started losing the weight. So, something good is happening in the body when you're doing intermittent fasting and you can't always see it. So, there was that.  

Melanie Avalon: She didn't say what window she's doing, does she?  

Gin Stephens: Well, she said that minimum of 16 and sometimes 20 to 21. Here's what I've noticed from years in the Intermittent Fasting Community. When people would say, "I always do at least whatever, and sometimes, I did this." If they start tracking their fasts on an app, they realize that they might skew a lot more to the 16 and less to the 20 than they thought. That's just something to keep in mind. If you're fast or usually 16, 16, 16, 16, every now and then you do a 20 or 21, you're likely not getting into that peak fat burning that starts to ramp up around our 18. Just pushing it to 19 consistently instead of 16 consistently could make a difference. Just something to consider. Try an app and see what you're doing. Because for me, I needed a consistent 19 to really get that fat burning in and to lose the weight that I wanted to lose. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess for me, so, I think it's very telling for Carrie, well, first of all, Carrie, I really, really identify with you and I can see why you feel like our stories are really similar because for listeners, who are not familiar, a lot of my health issues started with GI distress, and SIBO, and antibiotics, and just feeling like my gut got off after this catalyzing incident, and just being a rocky road ever since then. So, I completely identify and I know what this is like for so many people. This isn't even about the weight loss. This is about the health issues that she was experiencing. You just you know something's off, and you just want to find answers, and you try all the things like Carrie has done. So, parasites, and heavy metals, and herbs, and cleanses, and going after this liver virus, and antibiotics, and just trying all these different things. I know that it's very scary and it can feel very disheartening. So, I'm completely there with you.  

For me what happened, I hit burnout with all of it. I hit a point where I was like, "I don't care." Like, I'm not testing anymore, I'm not going to try to fix whatever the specific thing is through a specific supplement or through a specific thing, and I don't know that the ideal mindset to be in either, but the takeaway that I learned from all of that and where I am now, it's really easy to get caught up in the minutiae and try to go after these specific things that you think might be in you or that might be off. When I think if you just step back and breathe, and take a more holistic approach that's foundationally based on diet and food, I think there's massive, massive potential there. You can be doing all these things, but if you're taking in food that is not supporting your gut microbiome and it's contributing to these issues, that's difficult to address. And then, on top of that, there's so much potential that can be gained when you are eating a diet that's really, really supporting your body and helping address that. All that said, so, as far as like, where to focus and like, "Where the answer is?" There might be things that you really, really do need to focus on and address. 

So, for me, the heavy metals were really bad for me. My blood levels of mercury were over 30 which is just shocking. So, that was something I did need to address. For me, I do have to keep monitoring my anemia, for example. That's not something I can just be like, "Oh, I'll just eat food and be okay." No, I actually, I use InsideTracker and I stay on top of my ferritin and my iron because that mine has a tendency to drop. So, there are things that are important to focus on and keep in mind, but I think maybe getting out of the detox mindset and entering a healing diet food mindset can't be understated. I also empathize as well. Carrie has this mindset of the perfectionism mindset. So, she's worried that, I'm going to say it again. She says, "I'm not perfect with my diet partly because I know it's not sustainable and if I try and fail, I will just say, no." So, that's really hard to navigate because I as well, I'm a perfectionist and an all or none person. And I know it's very easy, it's a slippery slope, where some people respond to not being perfect with just throwing it all out the window, which is a really interesting mindset justification that we make that doesn't have to be. So, you can still strive for perfect and then, if you're not perfect, that's okay. But if you're not perfect, it doesn't mean that you throw everything out the window and just lapse into rebelling against perfectionism. You can still strive for perfect but things can be good.  

It's interesting, I just finished Cynthia Thurlow's new book, and she talks about this, and she recommends a, I think, she calls it a good, better, best mindset. So, she says, "Every single day is either a best day." So, that would be like the equivalent of "perfect." So, you ate all the foods you want to eat, you did the fasting the way you want to do it, etc., Then, there's the better day. So, that's where like, you're almost there but some things were like a little bit off, and then, there's the good days, which maybe more things are off, but either way, you're always making progress. So, I would really suggest that mindset, Carrie, applying that to your diet. So, striving for those best days rather than saying, "I'm not even going to try." Because I know you don't want to track and you don't want to be perfect, but it might be that you're not going to be able to make the progress that you want without addressing the actual food choices of your eating window. Intermittent fasting can be amazing. But for some people, it's not going to be enough to actually make the change. We can tweak the window, we can fast more, but at some point, some people, you've just got to look at what you're eating. 

Gin Stephens: And you know to me, that's funny to hear you say that, because what she described is what she eats sounds pretty great. It sounds very cleanish. It's very much like the way I eat. She's eating meat, seafood, eggs, lots of veggies, salad with homemade dressing. It sounded like a pretty, pretty great diet to me.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's the thing. So, I think what it sounds like to me, just looking at it briefly, skimming through the foods like, "Oh, this is a good diet." So, I think maybe she's found a safety within that, when you're saying people, they think they're fasting a certain amount but they're not quite. I think it might be the situation with the food. So, she feels like it's healthy, but the cheese, the fat, the processed food, if her insulin levels are high enough and her carb intake is enough such that she is at a more of a storing mode than having the fats, the cheese, the things like that, they might be every time she's eating, adding in enough excess nutrition that she's not going to ever lose weight unless she gets a little bit more strict.  

Gin Stephens: That's what my tweaks recommended would address that exact thing would be try to delay the alcohol for a month. See what happens if you just avoid the alcohol and just push that window length a little bit. That would give you the same benefit in lowering your insulin because you're fasting a little bit more. It seemed like a pretty good a balanced kind of a way because otherwise you're just like dieting hardcore. So many of us don't want to diet hardcore.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's the mindset I'm trying to dismantle right now. Because she's eating what she's eating but she doesn't want to diet hardcore.  

Gin Stephens: Right. I don't think she needs to change what she's eating.  

Melanie Avalon: She could substantially change what she's eating without it being dieting hardcore.  

Gin Stephens: See, I don't think she needs to substantially change what she's eating. I guess, that's where we're having that disconnect. She has occasional candy. I eat tortilla chips. I eat occasional candy. She seems like she's eating a very good diet to me. I don't know. To change it up would seem hardcore to me.  

Melanie Avalon: I think for some people if they're eating fats and carbs in their meals, especially, cheese in there, butter in there, nuts in there, cheese, nuts, things like that can easily be very weight promoting. It might be that in order to lose the weight, it doesn't have to be crazy. But eating just Whole Foods, so no longer adding additional fats like still eating your normal meats but not adding the fats, not adding nuts, not adding cheese, you might see massive, massive changes. It doesn't have to be like counting calories, and it doesn't have to be super intense, but just making some tweaks, and that's what I'm trying to dismantle like, there's a lot of change she can make to her diet. That's not going to be crazy dieting, it doesn't have to seem like really restrictive, but it might make super, huge changes pretty quickly. It could also be a macros approach. So, if you do want to keep in the fats, maybe, you're trying low carb. There're different ways that you could try it. But you could tweak it within a paradigm that is not super restrictive, not super crazy, but might be addressing the things that might be making it impossible. 

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Gin Stephens: I think that probably a good majority of the people out there don't want to tweak by eating less fat, or less carbs, or go low fat, or go low carb, I think we just want to eat real food. I don't want to have a potato with no butter or butter with no potato. I want to have a potato with butter. The way that I and a lot of people are able to have the potato with the butter is by focusing on maybe a 19-hour daily fast instead of 16, and by being careful with how much alcohol and things like that. I know that some people are really excited to try leaving out certain macros. But I think a lot of people really just don't want to do that. I don't know. Something to think about. She could certainly do whichever of those seems appealing to her. We've given her a lot of tools to pick from, I think. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't want to make blanket statements because I don't know what the majority of people want.  

Gin Stephens: Can I be honest with something? Somebody in my community listened to last week's episode, where we talked a lot about cheese and nuts, and was a little salty about it. There was some feedback of feeling like, we are telling people what to eat and what not to eat. She said, "We." She wasn't talking about you, it's about me and you. A very interesting discussion ensued in the community. So, that's why I wanted to bring that up. A lot of people really don't want to count macros. They don't want to do the low fat, they don't want to do the low carb, they just want to eat food. 

Melanie Avalon: What's interesting is, I had some feedback as well, but it was the complete opposite. This is why I think like, I'm just about telling people options and you find what works for you. People just find what works for you but we had one listener write in and she was saying that, I think she was talking about the protein and the fruit. We made the suggestion about maybe trying to bring in other types of carbs because, maybe you could have them and then she reported back to me, she was like, "Nope, you know that didn't work at all." I think it's all very individual and I think we see the world through the way we approach it. So, for me, I do better with macros, and I do better being more strict on what I'm eating. And some people are like that as well. I think you see through the lens of not like that.  

My foundational thing, though is that, I think people are so nervous about falling into restrictive diety mindsets and they don't want to ever count calories, they don't want to ever track anything that sometimes it can be-- we like to ignore the fact that certain foods are very likely weight promoting, and make it harder to lose weight if they're in there, and that might just be-- I don't like to ever saying something is a reality, but approaching a reality. That's why I'm trying to suggest like the good, better, best approach, and I just thought it was really interesting that she didn't even mention what she was eating. The email I cut it down from, it was probably three times as long. But there wasn't any mention of the foods, which said to me that there wasn't a focus at all on the food. She probably feels like the food is a healthy approach, and so, there's not much tweak there, and I just think there's so much progress that can happen if things are tweaked. I am never trying to enforce or impose my beliefs on anybody. This is going to sound callous, but I really could care less when people do. Like, "Do what you want, I don't care." I just want to tell people, what has worked for me and it may or may not work for you. But if things aren't resonating with people, I'm sorry. But it doesn't really bother me-- that does not bother me.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The feedback was that, we were demonizing cheese and nuts. I really don't think that we came across as demonizing cheese and nuts. We were just saying, they're easy to overeat. But that's not us saying those are off the menu. I eat cheese, I eat nuts, but I am mindful that I can easily over eat cheese. But I'm not overeating cheese right now.  

Melanie Avalon: I know the way I've talked about cheese and nuts. I don't think I've demonized them. I have not intended to. I do think pretty objectively they are foods that can be very weight promoting. So, it sounds like a defensive reaction because people want to keep it in. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I definitely want to keep cheese and nuts in my diet and I want to eat them. I just need to be mindful. The same with like tortilla chips. She eats tortilla chips, I eat tortilla chips. But I mindfully eat them and I choose really high-quality ones. 

Melanie Avalon: So, a simple concept of cheese is easily weight promoting. Again, I don't like to say anything black or white, I'm fairly certain that that's a pretty accurate statement. So, what you do with that is up to you. So, you know you can keep it in moderation, find the way that it works for you, it doesn't change the fact that it might be weight promoting if had in excess, which often happens. 

Gin Stephens: Right. I think that's often very key said in excess and it's just hard to know. You're probably not going to have broccoli in excess, but it is a lot more likely to have cheese in excess. So, I just wanted to point that out. 

Melanie Avalon: Literally, listeners, do what you want. [laughs] Do what you want. I just think it's funny because I think people, I know we're on like tangents, but I think sometimes people think that I have an agenda or I'm trying to convince people of anything. I really not. Like, do what you want. I'm just going to tell you what worked for me, and what I've learned, and what I think might help. Yes, I have no agenda. 

Gin Stephens: I do have an agenda. Do you know what it is? I want people to enjoy what they're eating without stressing about it. That is it. That is what I know you do, too. But that is what Clean(ish) is all about. it is figuring out what things you want to include. There's the 'ish.' I know that a tortilla chip fried in an oil that is one of those inflammatory oils is not great for my body. But I'm still going to include them in small amounts because I enjoy them. I'm not going to veer so far to perfection that I'm not enjoying the way I love and you're not either, Melanie. You very much enjoy the way you live. But it's a matter of finding your own balance of what foods you enjoy that make you feel good. My friend, Laurie Lewis, she says it beautifully. She says, "You want to love the foods that love you back. You want to pick the foods that make you feel great and are delicious, and you're balanced in a way that your weight ends up being at a stable level, where you feel comfortable." Sometimes, you do have to make some, like that period of time where I didn't drink alcohol and I didn't have those tortilla chips or other ultra-processed foods for 10 weeks.  

This was in the spring of 2015. So, would you say that I was dieting? All right, maybe so. I was not having certain things because my goal was to lose weight more quickly. I still ate a lot of good things, I had plenty of fats and carbs together, but I just didn't have alcohol or ultra-processed foods. Potato with butter, yes. Tortilla chips, no. I lost weight the most quickly I ever lost two pounds a week and then kept it all off. That was that kind of a thing. But it was delicious and I enjoyed it. So, my agenda and I think Melanie's, too, is for you to find a way to get the results you're looking for while loving the journey.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. This is what you just said but it might be for certain people with certain goals. But you do have to do some sort of tweak. 

Gin Stephens: There's the delay, delay, delay the extra cheese that whenever you eat it, you don't lose weight. Whatever it is. For me, it was delaying the alcohol. So, someone might say, "Gin is anti-alcohol." No, I'm not. I wish I could enjoy it more. My body tells me, "Nope, that's too much for you. I have to have a little bit." But I'm certainly not anti. I just know that for me, that is a big, big factor. So, I'm always going to suggest that, that might be something to look at.  

Melanie Avalon: I'll just read really quickly her next question. She says, "I'm sure there will be more supplements introduced to me through future episodes as I catch up. Based on my situation, do you have any you really recommend for me? Obviously, you're not doctors. I get that. Based on anecdotal evidence, are there any that you recommend?" Again, so, this was from her original email, which did not mention anything about food? Again, it was this five I got of looking for the answer in a supplement rather than the foundation of diet.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I don't think there're any supplements out there that you can take that. It is like the reason you're not losing weight that I can just blanket say is everybody's reason. Maybe, let's say, your thyroid is all messed up. A thyroid medication or thyroid support is obviously going to be transformational for your body. But that doesn't mean everybody needs to go take thyroid medicine or a thyroid supplement. So, there's nothing we can blanket say, "Here's what you need to help the weight loss happen." 

Melanie Avalon: I will say, one I do in general, that one that I do take every day though. But this is not to lose weight but to help with insulin sensitivity and stuff like that is I do take berberine every day. But there's not some sort of magical supplement that is going to make you lose weight. And then, her last thing she says, "Tips, advice, or anything I may not have thought of. I wish you both a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Much love," Carrie. So, keep us updated with how your journey goes. I will say, I really, really like her mindset. Despite all of this, she said multiple times, she said things like how she like, I'm paraphrasing, but something about how she doesn't know why she's going through this. But she knows there's a reason, and she's not giving up hope, and we're right there with you. Like, your mindset is really, really wonderful, and I know you'll find answers, and I do want you to know that I've definitely been there with everything just feeling like it fell off the wagon health wise, and not knowing what to do. So, I applaud you for really taking agency and trying to find answers, because a lot of people don't. So, yeah, you'll find it. 

Gin Stephens: I did have one more thing I wanted to pop in there, and it was me circling back to the fact that she did the ZOE program, and I really think if you've got all that data from ZOE, that could really help you figure out your diet without trying to be perfect about it. Because again, ZOE doesn't expect you to be perfect, you're not trying to get hundred on your score. So, if you put the meat in and it takes you down to a 70, you might be like, "Oh, this is terrible." But actually, it's not. That 70 is not a terrible score. So, you may want to listen to Episode 170 of Intermittent Fasting Stories. I interviewed Kristi Osborn. She's also really active in the Delay, Don't Deny Community. For anyone who's looking for that, you can go to ginstephens.com/community. Kristi's story is pretty amazing. She was also having a really hard time losing weight, loved intermittent fasting, and how she felt.  

But once she really embraced ZOE, and she doesn't like tracking either. She's not like loving the tracking part or trying to be perfect with ZOE. But it absolutely changed everything. So, I just wanted to pop that in there. She finally lost a lot of weight. She's actually in the community and she is part of the-- we have a little ZOE space in the Delay, Don’t Deny Community where people can come and talk about their experiences. She really does a great job guiding people how to make the most of it without letting it make you crazy. Because if you look at it through the lens of perfectionism, and like, it's a diet that's telling you what you have to eat and what you can't eat, that would be very like that diet brain kind of thing going on. Instead of like, "Oh look, my avocado toast score is higher with more avocado than adding an extra egg or something." It just might surprise you. You had to tweak those food combinations to get a higher score for you.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually to that point, the mindset that's worked well for me. So, if you are addressing the types of foods you are eating, focusing on unlimited of certain types of foods rather than like, "Oh, I can't have this, I can't have that." Being like, "Oh, I can have unlimited of all of these foods and then--"  

Gin Stephens: [laughs] That's just so the opposite of the way I could be. If I get told myself, "I can have unlimited of anything, I just don't do well with that approach."  

Melanie Avalon: Within the certain macronutrient that I'm following.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But I'm just saying that, it is just so interesting how our minds like the way that we-- I'm trying to explain how to put it. I don't know. I could overeat something if I told myself that's unlimited. Okay, I'm sorry.  

Melanie Avalon: Even if it was within an intense macro nutrient. So, unlimited within a low-carb world or unlimited within a low-fat world.  

Gin Stephens: I'm pretty sure I did overeat when I was unlimited in the low-carb world because I never lost any weight.  

Melanie Avalon: I guess, I do high protein, low fat. It's so funny. IF turned so many people onto this. I'm really trying to think of this should be my next book.  

Gin Stephens: High protein, low fat, is that what you said?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But lean meats and fruits specifically for me. This is what I've been doing for years. It is like unlimited lean protein, unlimited cucumbers, unlimited fruit, all I want. It's just a setup because of the metabolism of those macronutrients, especially, within a fasted window. It's very unlikely you'll gain weight and if anything, you might lose weight.  

Gin Stephens: I just know that the one reason I never did Weight Watchers is, they have the zero-point foods. I'm pretty sure I would be overeating zero-point foods, I'd be gaming that system and probably gaining weight. [laughs] I don't know. I just know my own mindset. I do much better focusing on satiety, listening to those hunger cues instead of telling myself this one's on limited. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which I guess the foods I focus on, like, protein is the highest for satiety. So, it's like a double whammy. But yeah. People view the world all different ways.  

Gin Stephens: It is. Just like, we were naming foods whether we liked them or not. We were the opposite on all of them.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Gin and I, yeah, [laughs] I can tell you, every food Gin won't like or will like based on if I like it or not.  

Gin Stephens: Probably for a lot of them. Does Gin like cucumbers?  

Melanie Avalon: You like cucumbers?  

Gin Stephens: No.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Do you like lima beans?  

Gin Stephens: I love lima beans.  

Melanie Avalon: I can't stand lima beans.  

Gin Stephens: If you told me, I could just have unlimited lima beans, I would just eat lima beans till I exploded.  

Melanie Avalon: If there's one bean I can't, like, lima beans. Or, what about hazelnuts?  

Gin Stephens: I like hazelnuts. They're so good.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't like hazelnuts or oranges.  

Gin Stephens: I love oranges.  

Melanie Avalon: I love most foods. So, that's the thing. There are very few foods I don't like.  

Gin Stephens: There's really very few foods I don't like. 

Melanie Avalon: What do you not like?  

Gin Stephens: I don't like cucumbers. Well, when I start listing them, I don't like anything that you're going to have on sushi. Let me put it that way. When I was in Tampa-- 

Melanie Avalon: Ginger?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I like ginger. Okay. I like ginger. I like ginger, I like wasabi, I like the sauces. But everything they roll up, I mean, I like rice. But anything else practically that they're going to roll up in there, I don't like the cucumber and they all have cucumber. I don't like fish, they all have fish.  

Melanie Avalon: I love fish.  

Gin Stephens: [sighs] Anyway, it's like the one restaurant I do not want to go to you with is a sushi restaurant because I have a hard time finding anything I want.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. What is the one food you dislike the most? Oh, I don't like oysters.  

Gin Stephens: I don't like any kind of fish and I don't like oysters.  

Melanie Avalon: But mine is probably oranges.  

Gin Stephens: I love oranges. You do not like oranges that much?  

Melanie Avalon: They give me a raging headache.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I love them. If I'm ever sick, I start to crave orange juice and it always makes me feel better. I need the pulpy kind. Pulpy orange juice, love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Oranges and grapefruits.  

Gin Stephens: I like grapefruits.  

Melanie Avalon: I think I have a reaction to some compound--  

Gin Stephens: To citrus?  

Melanie Avalon: I love lime and lemon. There's something in orange that just-- 

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: You're not a huge watermelon fan, right?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I hate it. It's gross. I don't like any kind of melon. See, I think cucumbers are in that Melanie kind of. I don't like cucumber or any kind of melon. I don't eat a fruit salad that has melon in it because it has infected the rest of the fruit with its grossness. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the best, because I'm a fruit lover and out of the fruits, all of the melons.  

Gin Stephens: I like pineapple, I like oranges, I like strawberries, I like any kind of berry. 

Melanie Avalon: I like berries.  

Gin Stephens: I'll eat an apple if it's in a pie.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. It is so funny.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was a fun time. So, for listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go at ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode248. Definitely follow us on Instagram because we just got actually a new fabulous woman who is going to be helping us with our Instagram. Shoutout to Shannon. So, we're going to start posting and interacting there more. Oh, and in case you're wondering, it's not like just Shannon. I am very much-- Gin and I are both, we see it and I'm there. When I go on to my Instagram on my phone, I'm there. Don’t want to think they were like outsourcing it. So, definitely follow us on Instagram @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon on Instagram. Gin is @ginstephens, and I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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Welcome to Episode 229 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. 

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SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
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Spoon-Fed: Why Almost Everything We’ve Been Told About Food Is Wrong (Tim Spector)

The Diet Myth: Why the Secret to Health and Weight Loss Is Already in Your Gut (tim Spector)

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Listener Q&A: Anonymous - Body Burning Alcohol for energy

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Listener Q&A: Sarah - Waking up feeling exhausted during ADF

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Adrenaline Dominance: A Revolutionary Approach to Wellness (Michael Platt, MD)

Listener Q&A: Evelyn - NSV and donating blood Question 

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - 4:3 Window

Steve Austad, Ph.D.: The landscape of longevity science: making sense of caloric restriction, biomarkers of aging, and possible geroprotective molecules

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 229 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.  

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And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.  

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 229 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I am packing up to go spend three weeks at the beach. 

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting. 

Gin Stephens: It’s the longest I've ever been away from home. Chad just realized that I'm leaving tomorrow, he's known that I was going but he's like, “Wait a minute. Three weeks is a really long time.” I'm like, “Sorry.”  

Melanie Avalon: Is it the longest, really?  

Gin Stephens: It's the longest I've ever been away from him, yeah. Our whole married life. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.  

Gin Stephens: It just worked out. We got to have a lot to do with the house and in between rentals and lots going on, and also got friends coming. I didn't go for the entire month of July, because the house was rented. I only spent one week there in June. So, I grabbed these three weeks in August for myself, and I have a lot to do, like I said. So, I'll be very, very busy, but I've got a couple of friends coming down, one, then she's leaving, then and others coming, then she's leaving, then Will's going to come and spend some time with me. I'll be doing a lot of recording while I'm there too. My regular podcast recording schedule is still happening.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure it will be super fun and productive.  

Gin Stephens: It will but Chad is going to miss me. So, he's already let me know. Yeah, I think it's going to be awesome. I'm very excited. The ocean is very warm in August. So, that's nice.  

Melanie Avalon: I love the Atlantic, the warm Atlantic.  

Gin Stephens: I'm going to get in the ocean every day. I like to get in the ocean and jump around with the waves. It's like a really great workout. Like really.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree. I'm an Atlantic Ocean person. I feel that people are either Atlantic or Pacific.  

Gin Stephens: Or, you might be Gulf of Mexico. Some people are Gulf of Mexico. I am not.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I am.  

Gin Stephens: You’re Gulf of Mexico? You'd like the calm?  

Melanie Avalon: It is just what I-- growing up, that's where we went.  

Gin Stephens: That's what it all boils down to.  

Melanie Avalon: At whatever beach you went to growing up. 

Gin Stephens: Guess where I went, Myrtle Beach. That's where my grandmother took me. [laughs] So, that's where I go. We found a picture that-- my mother came to visit us, a couple weeks ago, and she brought some old photos that actually a cousin on my granddaddy's side gave us pictures we'd never seen before. Because they were like my aunt, my old, old aunt and my granddaddy's side had them. So, we'd never seen them. It was some pictures from my mother was little, and right down there where we bought our house, like 10 minutes away from where we bought our house, my mother, and my uncle, and my grandparents were there in the 50s. Actually, I guess it was the early 50s. Maybe, right even before my house was built that I'm in, that was built in 1956, 10 miles away, it's really fun. We have vacation routes in this area. So, no wonder I love it. 

Melanie Avalon: [giggles] I love that. 

Gin Stephens: So, what's new with you?  

Gin Stephens: I have two exciting announcements. I was just looking at the calendar, though. One of them will have already happened. But all the more reason friends to be on my email list, because if you missed this, you would have known about it. You can get on my email list at melanieavalon.com/email list, although, I might also send an email through our email list because it's relevant. I'm doing a Q&A with the people at Zoey.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that.  

Melanie Avalon: Not like an interview for my show. We're going to do a live Zoom, because I've been getting a lot of questions about Zoey--  

Gin Stephens: In the Facebook group?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm, yeah, and people. Well, people loving it, but then also people a little bit confused about the recommendations, and just wanting some clarity. I sent those questions all over to them, and they were super great. A, they got me very detailed answers, but then they said they would prefer just doing a live thing and talking to people. So, that should be super fun. One of the main things that people were, I guess, curious about was it seemed like a lot of the food recommendations were very similar. I mean they are. They say they are, but it's evolving and that they're working on making it more personalized. 

Gin Stephens: Even though the foods might be similar as far as recommendations go, the scores are different. That's what I noticed working with the moderators of my Facebook groups and the social network, the friends of mine who went through it that are moderators, comparing our scores, like we would put in the same meal just out of curiosity and see what our individual scores were, and the scores were very varied. Even though the same foods are scoring typically higher, the combination would get a different result. That was what was fascinating, we didn't get the same exact number.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Even though we were both putting in the same-- we would even check brand names and things. Somebody's like, “Oh, look, this scores 99 for me on Zoey," and someone else would put it in and it would not be a 99.” 

Melanie Avalon: I haven't done Zoey. I wonder if it'd be more appropriate if I do it first before. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's a thought. Remember, you got to eat those muffins. You've got to do it for science.  

Melanie Avalon: But it's just one day, right?  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember and it's always changing. It might have been two days of muffins, but then what they're doing right now is even different from when I did it because, just like you said before, it's always evolving. This is really research in action. They're not just like a program you buy, and here's the program. They are actually doing scientific research. They published something in the journal, Nature, which is a very well-renowned scientific journal recently. So, they're evolving their recommendations and everything about it based on as they learn, as the science evolves. 

Melanie Avalon: I might email them. I might see if they would prefer me to do it first. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a great idea. Also, I have a friend, they actually asked her to do it again, like they're comparing data. As part of the study, they said, “We would like for you to go through it again with your-- just to see.”  

Melanie Avalon: I also finished Tim Spector’s book because I'm interviewing him in less than a month as well.  

Gin Stephens: Isn't he wonderful?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I guess, just from what I'd seen from the feedback about Zoey from my audience, I was anticipating it to be much more not open to something-- His section on meat, for example, he was very much clear that most long-lived populations eat meat and very clear on what might actually be going on with that, and he was also-- I loved his perspective on salt. I loved his perspective on wine and alcohol.  

Gin Stephens: Can I pop in something real quick that confuses a lot of people about Zoey?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Just because something doesn't score 100, doesn't mean you're not supposed to eat it. That was just an example. We tend to want to gamify and beat our scores, and if this scores a 90, then I should try to get a 95. People can mistakenly think that a meal that includes meat the Zoey scores 75 and that means you shouldn't eat meat, but that's not what it's saying. We follow their recommendations and follow their program. They don't tell you that all your meals should score above a 90. So, people mistakenly think that they're being guided to not eat meat at all, when really that is them looking at numbers and thinking I want to get 100. We were trained to get 100 in school. Getting 100 is what you want. Always a 100. That might be something Zoey could keep in mind maybe for feedback, because we're so trained, it's ingrained in our psyche, the goal should be 100. That's not how they want you to live your life and I'm glad that you got that sense from reading Spoon-Fed. 

Melanie Avalon: I thought it was going to be not as nuanced in his perspective on the things I just mentioned, meat, salt, alcohol. The things I learned in the alcohol chapter, I've learned so much. Just things I didn't realize, like the recommendations for alcohol intake between different countries, I knew it was different but it's shockingly different. Then, the correlations to health just don't line up. He said in Chile, the recommendation-- which I tried to verify this and I couldn't find this number this high, so, I'm not sure where this was coming from. But he said in Chile the maximum recommended intake is the equivalent of six glasses per day. Then in the UK, I think now it's like zero or something, but they have the worst health-- It's just really, really interesting. Not saying that alcohol equals health automatically, but he definitely creates a really nuanced picture. 

Gin Stephens: But also, you can't go by recommendations as equating for health. Just because they recommend, they have zero in the UK, I don't think the UK is following that recommendation. Just because they recommend zero and have terrible health doesn't-- you know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a very valid point. He even said some pretty what I thought were very controversial things about the role of alcohol in pregnancy. I was like, “Oh, did not anticipate this.” I'm really excited to interview him. 

Gin Stephens: He's a scientist. He's looking at that info, and he's not always telling you what is politically correct to say.  

Melanie Avalon: It was something to the effect of drinking during pregnancy-- I'm sure there was more context about the amounts and everything. But basically, it very rarely actually creates issues in the child. But again, don't quote me on that. Read the chapter.  

Gin Stephens: It's been a long time since I read it. I read it when it first came out, and I haven't read it since. Maybe, I should go back and read it. I think it's on my Kindle. I think that's how I bought it. If not, I'll get it on my Kindle, and I'll read it on the beach.  

Melanie Avalon: It's Spoon-Fed. I haven't mentioned the title yet. So, for listeners, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. 

Gin Stephens: And his other book, The Diet Myth, is really good too.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to try to read it if I have time before interviewing him.  

Gin Stephens: But just keep in mind. It was several years older. He evolves his thinking. But I learned a lot. It was way early in my-- we're all different. Opening up of my mind, it was really early. I read it in maybe--0 it was either 2015 or 2016. So, it was well before I wrote Feast Without Fear. It really is what got me thinking and it was like a foundational-- just like The Obesity Code was foundational for me, so was The Diet Myth by Tim Spector. 

Melanie Avalon: We might start production this week on the serrapeptase supplement. So, listeners get on my email list for that. I have an email list just for that supplement. It's at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, and we're going to do a preorder special and the prices will probably not be that low ever again. I say this every time but basically serrapeptase is an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state. It breaks down residual proteins in your body. So, it really addresses anything that-- or it can address anything that is from a protein buildup or your immune system reacting to proteins. So, arthritis, inflammation, brain fog, fibroids. An article just came out in June, and I haven't read all of it yet, it actually talks about the role of serrapeptase to treat COVID. 

Gin Stephens: I saw that somewhere. Eating up the proteins, I actually saw something related to COVID and serrapeptase. I wondered if that's where you were going with that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably.  

Gin Stephens: It wasn't that article I sent you, was it?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I just saw this yesterday.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, then it wasn't. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but I haven't sat down and read every serrapeptase study that I can find. So, I need to actually do that. I'm really excited too.  

Gin Stephens: You'll be like the world's premier expert on serrapeptase.  

Melanie Avalon: The few studies I've read, it's just so overwhelmingly clear that it has so many health benefits, and it's really appreciated in countries like Japan and here, it's just not even-- People are just not aware about it. One of the studies I was reading, it was saying that it rivals NSAIDs for its effectiveness without any of the side effects of NSAIDs. 

Gin Stephens: Just to be clear, we're not hinting that it's going to prevent or reverse or COVID or anything like that. But what it does is, it breaks down proteins, and so that's an interesting thought. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, I'll report back next week after I've read the whole study about what it actually says. Because I think it talks about a few different mechanisms of action. In any case, I'm creating my own brand. I've been taking it for years, different brands, but I'm just going to create my own. So, the two emails to get on are melanieavalon.com/emaillist and melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. The show notes by the way will be at ifpodcast.com/episode229, and I'll put links. We've already talked about so much to everything there. Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started, and we have a question from Anonymous. Bum, bum, bum  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for some feedback.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. It's feedback. Yes, and the subject is "Body burning alcohol for energy." Anonymous says, “Hello, and thank you for your podcasts. On Episode 225, you answered a burning question I've had for years about the body using alcohol as a fuel source. I know someone who fasts daily and eats only dinner. He's very lean and well defined, although, he does not lift weights or exercise. In fact, he's disabled. However, he drinks beer all day long.” Now, this is just me interrupting. I would not consider that fasting all day. Beer has plenty of fuel in it.  

Melanie Avalon: Beer actually has carbs as well. It's not just pure alcohol.  

Gin Stephens: He's definitely not fasting. I just wanted to get that out there just in case. Let's say someone was listening and they-- 

Melanie Avalon: And stopped listening?  

Gin Stephens: Right. If he's drinking beer all day long, he is not fasting, not even close to fasting. She continues to say, “I always wondered why he doesn't gain significant weight while adding fuel to his body. This couldn't possibly be fasting.” That's her who said that but you're correct, Anonymous. All right, let's keep going. “Then you posited that in theory, one could drink alcohol and burn more calories taking in as alcohol isn't stored as fat. So, I suppose then my friend is the realization of this theory. While I wouldn't want to replicate his pattern of eating or drinking, it makes sense to me now why he is so lean and still dirty fasting. Thank you for your thoughts. It helps bring so much into perspective.”  

Again, I really don't like the words ‘dirty fasting,’ because I really don't think it's true. We like to have the opposites. If there's something called clean fasting, there must be something called dirty fasting? I actually think the opposite of clean fasting is you're not fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Not fasting.  

Gin Stephens: Right. The only reason I say clean fasting is because so many things have the words fasting in there. Like a juice fast, or a bone broth fast, or a fat fast, and I don't think those are actually fasting either. They're just a pattern of eating different things or drinking things that are not really fasting. Anyway, I just had to throw that in there. Sorry.  

Melanie Avalon: I guess, if you were doing a juice fast or bone broth fast, you're fasting from physical food, but you're not fasting in the sense that we think of fasting. 

Gin Stephens: Well, if you were asked to fast for a medical procedure, that would not fly. They would not want you to drink bone broth before your fasted surgery. That's a good way of thinking about it. If it's off limits [laughs] for a medical procedure, then we wouldn't want to drink a lot of beer right before medical procedure, either.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm just saying terminology wise like, you could eat food and be fasting just from apples, and you're not eating apples like you can fast from something. 

Gin Stephens: I'm fasting from apples. Yeah, well, it's like the Daniel Fast. It's a religious fast that my parents' church. They're eating, it's food. But it's just as special. They're refraining from certain things. But it's not the fasting we mean when we say fasting.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. It's a very interesting observation from Anonymous. So, yeah, we've talked about this before, but basically-- and again, beer is on the higher carb side of the alcoholic drinks. Well, I guess it really just depends, but alcohol itself doesn't really become body fat. I highly doubt it ever does. So, if people are just partaking in alcohol, they're actually probably not going to gain any fat from that alcohol. That said, what you eat with the alcohol can very easily be stored, and then on top of that, if you take in 2000 calories from alcohol, that's 2000 calories of energy. So, it's still adding to your total daily caloric intake and that the other food is more likely to be stored. 

Gin Stephens: Beer is technically, typically only 5% alcohol. Wine is about 12% alcohol or more. These are averages. According to average, beer would average 5%, some will be more, some will be less. Wine will average 12% and spirits, really only like spirits like vodka, usually only about 40% alcohol, unless you're drinking grain alcohol or something.  

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if that is averaging together like sweet wines and normal wines?  

Gin Stephens: I would think that's what they do for an average.  

Melanie Avalon: If you go to the store and look at the back of all the wines to see the alcohol percentage, which is something I have done trying to see if I can find any Dry Farm Wines equivalent wines in the store. It's so hard to find wines with alcohol less than 12.5% which is what Dry Farm Wines uses as they're cut off-- Usually, they're more than that.  

Gin Stephens: Well, again, that could be all data. Maybe, now, it's higher. Maybe, it used to be 12, and no one's updated, and everybody's just assuming it's still 12.  

Melanie Avalon: It’s a good question. 

Gin Stephens: That just shows that all these alcoholic drinks that we're drinking, it's not just alcohol. So, you're not just taking in alcohol calories that other 95% of your beer is not alcohol calories. 95% of it is not alcohol. So, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: I'll give a link since we mentioned Dry Farm Wines. 

Gin Stephens: Of course, some of it's water. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because it's by volume, not by calorie.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because I was thinking about in my head. I was like, “Mm.” 

Gin Stephens: I don't know the percentage of a beer that is of the calories. The percentage of the calories that would be the alcohol. That's another question. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: I just realized this recently. The Dry Farm Wines, a lot of them a relabel with their own label. For listeners, Dry Farm Wines, they go throughout Europe. They find wineries practicing organic practices, and then the wines have to be low sugar, low alcohol, less than 12.5 or less, like you just mentioned. They test them for toxins, and pesticides, and mold. I experienced such a difference drinking them but they often now relabel the back label to give more information and it shows grams of sugar, which is so cool. Most of them are 1 gram of sugar.  

Gin Stephens: I love the label that they put on there.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so helpful. So, that would be very negligible calories from carbs and alcohol. 

Gin Stephens: Will’s coming over for dinner more lately. Last night we're all sitting around and each of us had like a tiny little glass. We opened the bottle day before yesterday of Dry Farm Wines. It's red wine. I don't drink much red wine, but I had a tiny little bit. Now, we've had four servings from it and it's still only half the bottle because we're each having tiny little bits and even Will, because he's 21 now.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, fun.  

Gin Stephens: He's going to be spoiled rotten with his Dry Farm Wines.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. No kidding. Oh, my gosh.  

Gin Stephens: Making this 21-year-old have expensive tastes but in a good way, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, well, she'll be editing this and she'll hear it and her birthday has already passed. But just to show how much we love it, we gave our fabulous girl on our team who helps edit the podcast and create show notes and artwork, we gave her Dry Farm Wines for her birthday. 

Gin Stephens: Happy birthday, again, even though it's passed, Brianna. 

Melanie Avalon: Happy birthday again, Brianna.  

Gin Stephens: We're like, “What should we get her?” We're going back and forth, and we're like, “Well, you just can never go wrong with Dry Farm Wines.” Can never go wrong.  

Melanie Avalon: Never. So, for listeners if you'd like to get your own, you can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that link will also get you a bottle for a penny.  

Gin Stephens: So, that's exciting.  

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our first question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: This question comes from Sarah. The subject is "Waking up feeling exhausted during ADF." And Sarah says, “Hi, Mel and Gin. I wonder if you can shed some light on this. I've been IF for two years and lost 40 pounds. I have PCOS and am about 10 pounds for my goal/healthy weight. I’m currently 151 pounds and 5’4". I've been doing three 42-hour fasts most weeks since January. Never less than two a week. I tend to only lose weight if I'm low carb in my eating window which I find quite difficult and really watch what I eat. I don't eat bread, pasta, or rice usually. Otherwise, I maintain with three 42-hour fasts which sucks. I've tried shorter length fast and one meal a day, which causes me to gain weight. 

My question, on the days I do 42-hour fast, I sleep really, really well, but feel awful when I wake up, really tired and find it difficult to get out of bed. It goes once I'm up and awake, but I love to feel better. It doesn't happen on days I've eaten. I've recently had my general blood checked all fine. I take multivitamins, magnesium, fish oil, primrose oil, and electrolytes when fasting. I'm 50, and with perimenopausal symptoms such as hair falling out. Can you suggest ways to feel better? Love all your podcasts, books, and websites. Awesome. Thank you." 

Gin Stephens: I do want to say that I'm not certain that hair falling out is a perimenopausal symptom.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say.  

Gin Stephens: I feel it's not. It actually is a symptom that what you're doing is stressing your body out. So, I wonder if you may be overfasting for your body. I don't know. Count back three months, as a rule of thumb. Three months or so before the hair started falling out. Did you go through something stressful? If the answer is, “Oh, yeah, that was when my son was in the hospital or that was when I started a new stressful job.” Stress can make our hair start the hair fall process, and it's whatever your body perceives to be as a stress. You even could have had an illness that your body perceived as a stress. We try to make a lot of connections with what it is, and sometimes, we're not right. It might not be menopause. So, just keep that in mind. 

Melanie Avalon: It can be a sign but I think everything you just said is probably more likely the case and given the context of her question, it might not be menopause. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. If you have PCOS, then, that lets us know that your body likely has an issue with insulin because generally PCOS is related to higher levels of insulin. So, you're going to need to do things to get your insulin down, and that is why the longer fasts tend to be good for your body, and also, that probably why your body responds better to lower carb. So, you said it sucks, that's a bummer, and I know that it's frustrating. I get it. Because I would not be happy either, if my body needed me to do something that didn't feel like the thing I wanted to do. However, that being said, we have to work with the bodies we have, not our idea of what we want.  

For example, I wish I had a body that was doing great with allowing me to have a glass of wine, a big glass of wine every night, maybe two, but I don't. So, I've had to say, “Well, you know what? That isn't what my body does well with." If I eat too much sugar, I get restless legs. So, I have to adjust what I do to match what I want to have happen. I want you to reframe the three 42 inch-- 42 inch, I don't know where that came from. [laughs] The three 42-hour fasts. Instead of doing three 42-hour fasts, what if you did three 36-hour fasts? That might make a big difference. 36 to 42 is a lot of difference. Six hours. So, three 42-hour fasts might be more than your body wants to do. Try three 36-hour fasts instead. That would mean you're eating earlier in the day. Maybe model after the carbohydrate addicts' diet, which is an oldie but a goodie. But that was really early days of realizing how insulin affects us and she talked about it in there. Maybe do a low carb on the days that are your up days and you're going to have a 12-hour eating window instead of six because I really do think that three 42-hour fasts might be ever restriction, because the research on ADF, they weren't restricting at all on the updates. They weren't having a six-hour eating window. So, if you're having a six-hour eating window every single time that just might be over restriction.  

So. back to the carbohydrate addicts' diet, what I was talking about is, she had the plan. It was low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, regular dinner, and that was it. That was the whole plan. People lost weight doing that. So, if you do that on your updates, low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, regular dinner maybe still not if you don't eat bread, pasta rice usually but just allowing yourself to have more whole food carbs in that dinner. So, 36-hour fast, up day where you try low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, and then maybe slightly up your carb intake at dinner, see how that goes. See how that makes you feel. That might make you feel better. If it doesn't, if you still feel terrible on the days after your what are now 36-hour fast instead of 40-hour fast, if you still wake up feeling terrible, I want you to restructure your down day.  

Maybe on your down day, you have a low carb dinner instead. So, it would look like on what's your down day, instead of having a complete full fast, you would have a down day that has a low carb dinner. And then the next day, low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, higher carb dinner, and then just alternate that. See if what you're doing isn't just too restrictive. Because really the hair falling out, the fact that you're doing three 42-hour fasts, the fact that you're having trouble. The fact that, that you're seeing weight gain on one meal a day, that just makes me feel you might need to do just a little something else. You might be over-restricting. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, between Gin and me, I think we're going to offer a lot of different options. I'm glad that Gin took the approach of still keeping in the longer fast, but just not quite as long. So, that's definitely an option. I would probably suggest not doing any longer fasts. Gin was just talking about how the fact that you gain weight on one meal a day or shorter fasts is signifying that there's a lot that you can work with what you're actually eating in your eating window. Because I feel you should be able to find an eating pattern and a one meal a day pattern where you at the very least maintain, which would be my goal. So, my goal would be next 42-hour fast, I think what you're doing is sounds way too restrictive.  

You're 10 pounds from your goal weight, that's always when it's the hardest. You wake up exhausted, you don't feel good. You said, you feel good once you get going. That's probably from adrenaline kicking in. Your hair's falling out, I would stop. I would stop these long fasts, I would not do them. I would suggest trying one meal a day, every day, and really working on the food choices. Don't even try to lose weight. Just find something that maintains and then you can move forward to losing weight. I almost wonder if the fact that you're doing three 42-hour fasts, if the weight loss that you perceive that you're losing and the weight gain that you perceive that you're gaining, if it's literally just volume of food.  

Gin Stephens: Fluctuations from volume of food.  

Melanie Avalon: By 42 hours, you've probably lost the physical volume of all the food and then you're probably not retaining water. So, then when you eat, you probably gain back volume wise, just food, and then it's like if you were to keep doing one meal a day, you might feel you're gaining weight, but it's really just that now you have a volume of food in you every day that you didn't have before. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's so true. People do find that to be the case. I've actually had people say, “Gosh, every time I shorten my eating window, I gain weight. I don't gain weight on a six-hour window, but if I have a 1-hour window, I gain, gain. gain.” Really, I think it's just the volume of the food sits differently in the body when you eat it all in a constrained window, and then it causes you to even retain water differently, because a bulk of that food is moving through your system in a different way.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I think just psychologically, the way you're interpreting the game might have a lot to do with that. It's just seems so restrictive to me. A lot of people are really, really proud of themselves if they do one 42-hour fast and you're doing it three times a week. I think there's so much potential. For what I would suggest to do if you want to try one meal a day, well, first of all, like I said, accept the fact that you're going to “gain some weight,” but it's the volume. You're going to need to do it long enough for that to stabilize to actually see what is weight gain, and weight loss, and what like I just mentioned, the volume. 

You're doing low carb. We don't know what foods you're eating in low carb. I don't know if this is something that you're doing, but a lot of people in the low carb sphere, don't lose weight, even if it's working for them because they think that low carb means unlimited fat. But if you're eating enough fat to the point where you're not tapping into your body fat, you're probably not going to lose weight. I think this is one of the biggest things that people experience in the low carb world when they can't lose weight.  

I don't know if you're adding fats to your food. I don't know if you're just doing low carb like low carb foods or if you are also adding fats. A lot of people when they do low carb, they're adding olive oil or butter, maybe even cheese. If you're doing any of that, I would stop doing that and replace it with more protein. So, focusing on lean protein because that's the most satiating, that's the most thermogenic, meaning it's going to stimulate your metabolism the most. That's the least likely to become fat as a macronutrient. So, if you want to stay with low carb depending on what you're doing, reconceptualize it. Focus on the protein, focus on not adding fat. If you want to add fat, I say this a lot, but I would add C8 MCT oil. That's actually very pro-metabolic. So, that's a way to sort of like--  

Because some people's metabolisms on low carb-- and it's not a bad thing. But they might actually slow down a little bit just because of the nature of the macronutrients and I found that adding C8 MCT oil actually can combat that a little bit, because it's very thermogenic, and metabolism stroking, and to clarify, not in your fast, with your food. I'll put a link in the show notes to the one that I really like. As far as the carbs go, I know you said that you only lose weight if you are low carb. But I really like what Gin was saying about the potential of-- what is it called, where you add in the carb days? 

Gin Stephens: It's the carbohydrate addicts’ diet. Because since Sarah has PCOS, we know that insulin is likely a big issue for her. So, getting the insulin down more should be something that she targets. That's why low carb is so beneficial for people with PCOS.  

Melanie Avalon: I misheard. So, the carbohydrate addicts' diet, you don't have carbs, do you?  

Gin Stephens: You do. You have a low carb breakfast, low carb lunch and a “regular dinner.” 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I would suggest something similar. If you're going to do a one meal a day thing, having low carb days, then if you want to have a day with carbs as a carb up, so, it's like cyclical keto or something like that, having a carb up day in your one meal a day and making it very high carb, but making it very low fat for that day. 

Gin Stephens: I want to also say that you're likely to see a four-pound weight gain the next day after a high carb day after being low carb, and that is why people think, “Oh my gosh, I gain with carbs.” No, that's water weight. You did not gain four pounds of fat overnight from a high carb day. I actually did a program years and years and years and years ago back in my trying all the diets day. It was called Carb Nite. I've talked about that before, Melanie?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Keifer. Yep, yep. Carb Nite. The whole point of that was, your low carb for like-- I can't remember. I guess six days a week, and then one night a week, you have Carb Nite. It was where you added in lots and lots of carbs, and you're really trying to get those carbs in it, and he had the whole scientific reason why he recommended that because it keeps our hormones from-- Anyway, all the things that are said to happen when you're low carb with your hormones, this prevents all that. So, it's keeps your metabolism going a thing. It's been a long time, years since I read that work. But the whole premise was once a week, Carb Nite. You had to understand that after the Carb Nite, your weight was going to skyrocket. But it wasn't all fat. It's the water weight, and that comes because carbohydrates make us retain water, hydrate water.  

Melanie Avalon: For the Carb Nite, you do focus on being lower fat as well. That protocol works really, really well for a lot of people. That's probably the protocol I would actually recommend, would be a one meal a day situation, making the low carb days low carb, making them very high protein and not adding any fats. If you do add fats, add the MCT and then have a Carb Nite one night a week where you do high carb, low fat. 

Gin Stephens: No, I don't recall it being high carb-low fat because I remember I was in the community for a while. This was a long, long time ago. There was a Facebook group for it. I recall us eating things like gelato and we were not low fat. So, I don't know if we all were doing it wrong, but I don't recall the emphasis being low fat. 

Melanie Avalon: I think if I recall correctly and I can double check, I think he suggests, you're allowed to have fat, but I think he suggests you start with carbs. The idea is to fill up, and then if you're still hungry at the end, that's when you add in the fat but you don't start with the fat. 

Gin Stephens: That's not how I remember it but again, I could be misremembering it. 

Melanie Avalon: Or, might be the other way around. But there's an order to it.  

Gin Stephens: I just know, I was not doing low fat in there too. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, that's the thing is you can have it. I'm pretty sure. Because I read this a few months ago, and I think there's an order to it. 

Gin Stephens: Also, it could have been revised since then maybe he revised his recommendations since whenever it was I was doing it years ago. That is entirely possible. 

Melanie Avalon: Regardless of what he writes, I personally believe that if you make that high carb day low fat, then what's so incredible about it is, if you've been low carb, so you've been a fat burning ketogenic metabolism, lowering insulin, when you have that carb up day, you get all of the metabolic benefits of carbs. So, thyroid stimulating, metabolism, promoting filling up your glycogen stores throughout muscle, and your liver, if you do that in the context of high protein, high carb, low fat, it's actually-- even though, you'll most likely gain water weight, it's actually unlikely that you will gain much weight at all. So, it's like you get to have this. 

Gin Stephens: You're not really gaining fat. You see it on the scale. But that's what I don't want people to be freaked out about is like, “Oh my gosh, look at the scale. I'm up. I've gained all this fat from this. See, my body can't eat carbs.” That is not what that means. 

Melanie Avalon: Right. If you do eat fat on that high carb meal, you're going to store whatever fat. Basically, that's where you can see it. If you do this high carb day, this carb up day, basically, see it as whatever fat you eat that day you are most likely going to store. 

Gin Stephens: Not if it's not over what you needed.  

Melanie Avalon: True.  

Gin Stephens: Just because you eat fat doesn't mean your store it. I eat fat every day and I'm not storing a bunch of fat. I eat fat and carbs together every day. Only in the paradigm of now you're overeating. If you're overeating, what's leftover will be stored.  

Melanie Avalon: When I'm saying in my head is a lot of people who do this carb up, they make it really intense. It's like the big feast day. 

Gin Stephens: The cheat day kind of paradigm which is not really what it's supposed to be.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, right. Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: I don't like the idea of cheat day anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: So, let us know, Sarah. Let us know how it all goes. I will also-- just because I mentioned this last week, I'm reading Dr. Michael Platt's book about Adrenaline Dominance, and he really recommends and-- I started doing it. He really recommends progesterone cream for all hormonal issues really. But he actually recommends it right before eating for insulin sensitivity, which was really interesting. Apparently, if you take it right before eating, it's only in the bloodstream for a brief amount of time. It can possibly help you with your insulin response. 

Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about Prep Dish and what they have going on for you this summer. Summer is my favorite season. I'm sure that you've heard me say that before. But one thing about summer is that we are busy. That's why I'm so excited to tell you about the free bonus menu Prep Dish is offering this month, and it's only good through the end of June. 

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Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, and this is from Evelyn and the subject is "Non-scale victory and donating blood." She says, “Hello, ladies. My name is Evelyn and I have been doing Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat protocol for just over a year. I would like to report a few non-scale victories and ask one question. First a bit about me. I am 51 years old, a mother of four adult children, happily married for nearly 30 years, and work at home as a private piano teacher. Mid July 2020, during the middle of COVID and shutdown, I was taking inventory of my life. My weight was the highest it had ever been at 210 pounds.” Gosh, I just want to say, we have so much in common, Evelyn. I only have two children, not four. But I've been married for 30 years, I got up to 210, so many similarities. I'm 52, you're 51. Anyway, back to the question.  

She said, “I was entering into menopause. A few more months and I will be past that famous one-year mark. I was charting my blood work from several years past and began to see that the trend was getting higher and higher in almost every category. I could see the writing on the wall that medicine would be in my future, kind of depressing. When my girlfriend graciously shared her copies of your two books, Gin, I read them both in two days and started immediately. I was a rip the bandage off kind of girl. My first hope of course was to lose weight, which I have. I am currently 158 pounds with about 10 to 15 pounds to go. But I also wanted to work on my blood work. I'd like to report this year my wellness checkup that all my numbers improved, and are once again within normal ranges.”  

Melanie Avalon: Hooray. I'm cheering. That was me cheering for Evelyn.  

Gin Stephens: “My total cholesterol dropped 30 points and the nurse said, that doesn't usually happen without medicine. Amazing. My blood pressure and blood glucose numbers are near perfect and today I saw my eye doctor for the first time in a year. He made the comment that the health of my eye looks like a 20-year-old. He has never said that in all the years I've seen him. He mentioned that my eye pressure, which I take daily drops for, has gone down. He seemed pleased with that. I also realized today that I no longer have any floaters. They've disappeared." For anyone who doesn't know that's, when you see these little spots like floating in your field of vision that just pop up. You think there's like something floating in the air, but it's just something in your eye, in your field of vision.  

All right, she said, "They've disappeared. That must be autophagy at work doing its thing, cleaning up the old and used up parts. It's been exciting to see how my health has improved in such unsuspecting ways because of IF. Okay, my question, as part of my turning 50 and becoming an empty nester, losing weight, and just enjoying life in this new season, I started giving blood. I have never done it before and so, unwittingly went to the blood drive without eating breakfast, a good 12 to 14 hours into my fast. I got through all the screenings with good “grades” and then they casually asked me, “You've had a good breakfast, right?” “Um, no, I hadn't.” They almost turned me away. I promised them that I am very much used to not having breakfast and that if I were to get dizzy, I would tell them. I know that for many people who are not fat adapted, giving blood without their regular source of energy stocked up may not be good. But do you know if you must or even should eat either before and after, and when donating blood? They also offered food afterwards too. I will gladly break my fast to give blood several times a year if I must, but must I? Can you see a day when this eating protocol is different as more and more IF people show up at blood drives? Thank you for fielding this question and rejoicing with me on the non-scale victories."  

After reading this, I'm so curious. I wish Evelyn had said how she felt after giving blood in the fasted state because that would be very instructive. Because she said, they almost turned her away, but it sounds like they didn't which sounds like she followed through giving blood in the fasted state and in which case, it would be very interesting to see how she felt because I'm a big believer in listen to your own body, and how you feel, and if she felt perfectly fine after giving blood, that would be a big indication that it works well for her body. Again, they have food afterwards. If you feel that dizzy, low blood sugar, there's something there you could eat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because it does sound like she actually gave the blood. When I first heard her question, I was thinking she didn't. Let us know, Evelyn, if you did give the one the fastest day and how you felt. I will note, she was saying that maybe because she's fat adapted, that she would be less likely to be dizzy or faint. I do not recommend people give blood in the fasted state. It's actually not about blood sugar, it's about blood pressure. So, it's not something that has to do with your fat burning metabolism. So, not everybody faints, but it just has to-- Well, obviously, because people are fainting left and right. But it has to do with how your body reacts to a perceived blood pressure dropped that can happen pretty quickly from giving a large amount of blood. It's obviously up to you if you want to try. I have fainted before with blood, and it's a very unpleasant experience, and I don't wish it on anybody. It's not terrible, but if you haven't fainted, it's surprising. 

Gin Stephens: I have never fainted ever, not in my entire life. You probably could have guessed that, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I probably could have.  

Gin Stephens: Has Gin ever fainted? Yes, or no? No, Gin has not. 

Melanie Avalon: Has Melanie? Yes. It's just funny. I have only fainted once from a blood draw, and it was forever ago. But still, just because it's such an intense experience-- because you feel like you're dying because you don't know what's happening and then, you wake up and you don't know what happened, and it's just not pleasant, and what's really interesting, I do blood tests all the time, listeners know this. All the time. I still get nervous now because I fainted that one time, maybe this is something I can work on with a therapist or something. but I still get nervous. Even though I'm like a champ at blood tests. I'm always worried I'm going to faint. I do all my blood tests fasted, obviously, because we have to be usually fasted for blood tests. 

But giving blood is a whole another-- I would just be really nervous to be completely fasted and do a blood draw. But I would love to hear it. If any listeners who are doing fasting, I would love to hear their experience. So, yeah. I do think that's really interesting, though, that it's not related to blood sugar. Oh, something that has reassured me though about just getting blood tests is that the amount of blood they take for a normal blood test, it's negligible as far as your body reacting to it. So, if you faint from a blood test like I did, that's usually psychosomatic. It's not going to be because of this massive blood pressure drop most likely, that is possible when you're giving blood. Or, it could be psychosomatic blood pressure drop. But my point is, when you're giving blood, it's a physical amount of blood that can create that blood pressure drop compared to when you're getting a blood test where it's actually not a huge difference in your overall blood stream. Fun fact. Any thoughts, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is just one of those things that I'm not comfortable saying yes or no to. I'm not going to say yes, fast or no, don't fast, because that's not-- I would always follow the recommendations of medical professionals before any procedure, even giving blood. If you're not doing it very often, go later in the day after you've eaten. If they want you to have something to eat before you get blood, go when your window is open. Then, now, we don't even have to worry about it. You're not having to sacrifice your fast or making them happy and whatever the reason is, maybe the reason is wrong and you don't need to, but I'm not going to say that. I would do it later, personally, when my window was already open just to not even have to ask the question or worry about it. That's just what I have to say about that. I never want to go against a medical professional. Does that mean I think every medical professional is always got the most updated information? No. We know that things change. Protocols change, recommendations change, doctors have different ideas about things, research changes. So, follow the advice. If you go to give blood and they say you should have had breakfast, then have something to eat, come back later. Go during your window. Better safe than sorry.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. If you eat, you're much less likely to faint, and then it will much more likely be a successful blood draw.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, our next question comes from Stephanie. The subject is "Four-three window." Stephanie says, “Hello, I just love you girls. I've been doing IF for three months, and I'm down 25 pounds. I just love it. I recently started the four-three window. I only have 500 calories on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I've always done a 20:4 window. I was just wondering on my up days, do I fast for 20 hours still or can I start eating whenever I get hungry on my up days? Also, I'm a fitness instructor. So, I burn about 1000 extra calories a day and exercise. Should I up my low days to 1000 calories or stay at 500 calories? Thanks so much. So thankful for your podcast.” 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is a great question, Stephanie and I can answer it pretty quickly. Please do not fast for 20 hours on your up days. No, no, no, no, no. There's a lot of confusion with up days. And the research that was done on alternate daily fasting, they did not have any sort of fasting paradigm or window on updates. I mean, none. They were not instructed to skip breakfast, eat breakfast, eat in a window. They were just told on a down day, depending on the study, some down days were full fasts, and some down days were 500 calories depending on the study. And the up day was just, now you eat. So, they had the down day protocol they were following whether it was 500 calories or zero calories. Then the update, they were just instructed to eat normally. So, I'm pretty sure there was nobody in those studies that was also continuing to fast on the up day.  

We don't have data on that. We have no research on that. Maybe, there was somebody. When I say I'm pretty sure there wasn't, no, it wasn't reported in this study. Probably most of them ate breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is why I make the recommendation for an up day to purposefully make sure you're eating at least two meals, at least six to eight hours. Just because it's hard for some of us that have been doing intermittent fasting with the time-restricted eating for a while. It's hard for us to wake up and have breakfast at 7 in the morning. So, we feel better delaying our breakfast or not eating first thing when we get up. But we need to consciously make sure we're eating at least two meals, at least a window of six to eight hours. But again, notice that at least that doesn't mean, okay, well then, I'm going to do six every day, that first question that we answered from Sarah, she's doing three 42-hour fasts a week. Just because I say at least six to eight hours doesn't mean all right, I'm going to go with six, because I'm really dedicated. Sometimes, we feel like more is better and it's not always. 

With alternate daily fasting, they found the metabolism didn't slow down from that alternate-- that rhythm. But the up days, they were eating more, of course, we don't recommend calorie counting. There's a lot of flaws with that, but I'm going to use the word 'calories' in terms of energy intake, they were eating more calories, then their bodies needed on the up days. I can't remember the percentage, 100 and something percent of their daily caloric needs on up days. So, you want to eat more food. It needs to be up. You want to slightly overeat on up days. So, if you're comparing an up day to a normal day when you're not doing intermittent fasting, you want to slightly overeat on an up day. If you're doing a four-hour eating window on an up day, are you going to be slightly overeating? Doubtful.  

Oh, for the other part of Stephanie's question, the research on alternate daily fasting, they were right around 500 calories, and it didn't matter how active you were, if you were a man, if you were a little tiny woman, it was just. “Hey, let's just do 500 calories.” If you want to have 1000 calories, you could do your own approach to it. It won't be exactly the same as the researched alternate daily fasting, but if your body needs more than that 500 calories down day, you just try it and see if it works for you. That would be okay. Because you're still having that-- It's like a hybrid approach or you're modifying it. You just don't want to over restrict. You don't want to err on the side of over-restriction is my point. 

Melanie Avalon: That was great. I was going to say it was-- You used my word 'hybrid approach.' I guess the thing to clarify is just in general with ADF, it's not like you adjust your calorie intake based on your activity to do ADF, which I think might be the confusion maybe for people. They think, “Oh, it's 500 calories, but I adjust for my activity.”  

Gin Stephens: Everybody was assigned the same 500 calories on the down days. Although in Dr. Johnson's book, I can't remember the title of it but it was one of the early ADF books out there, he actually did have like men can-- maybe 600 calories. I don't know. There was a little bit of variability in there, but he was just basing it all just on calories. It was before we really understood, there's a lot more going on than just calories. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to put a link in the show notes. I'm listening to an interview. It's the latest interview on Peter Attia. It's with Steve Austad, PhD. It's making me so happy. They're diving deep into studies on calorie restriction, especially because there have been quite a few studies that have been confusing. There was the one in the rhesus monkey studies and the monkeys on whole foods diet versus I don't know the exact details, but it was calorie-restricted monkeys on either a whole foods type diet or calorie-restricted monkeys on a processed diet. 

Gin Stephens: I don't think I've ever seen a monkey study with ultra-processed and whole foods. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it was one study. I think it was two different institutions. But it's been something that has been perplexing, because I believe there was greater benefits in the process diet monkeys. Basically, the takeaway was that when you're eating a whole foods diet, there might be less benefit to gain from calorie restriction compared to when you're on a processed diet. That's been a conundrum, and then there was something I talked about when I interviewed Dr. Steven Gundry. There were two different mice studies looking at mice on processed diet or whole foods, and perplexing findings with the mice eating the processed diet experiencing greater benefits. I don't know if it's because it was like protein amounts. But Dr. Steven Gundry's theory and it's the theory that I immediately thought of when I read it was that by eating a processed diet-- because they only put out the food a certain amount of time. By eating the processed food diet, it actually created a longer fast because they ate it so fast and it was digested fast. 

In any case, there's been a lot of really interesting studies on calorie restriction in rodents and monkeys and perplexing findings, and so, if you listen to that episode with Peter Attia there, I'm only halfway through it, but they're diving deep into it. They also talk about that famous calorie restriction study. You know the biosphere where the people went in? They were talking about that too. And he's been talking about how calorie restriction in rodents in the wild actually, probably does not lead to longevity. It actually reduces lifespan. I'll put a link to it. It's really, really interesting.  

Gin Stephens: That does sound really interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but you did an excellent job answering that question. [giggles] Gin's got it.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I know how to answer these questions because I've heard them all in the Facebook groups back in the day. That's why I love helping people. Melanie is the one who loves what are the monkeys doing. [laughs] I mean that with love Melanie and I'm like, “Let me tell you the nuts and bolts of this of how you can make this work for your life with your question." [laughs]   

Melanie Avalon: I think that's why you make a good team.  

Gin Stephens: I think so too. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode229. There will be a full transcript there, all of the links. I'm plugging it again, definitely get on my email list for the serrapeptase at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. You can submit your own questions for the show, just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I'm @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. 

All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No. I think that's it. Next time, I will be coming to you from the beach.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I'm excited. [laughs] I'll talk to you then.  

Gin Stephens: All right, bye-bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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