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Nov 05

Episode 342: Longevity, Depression, Monk Fruit, Natural Vanilla, Ketone False Positives, Fatty Liver, Getting Family To Fast, Liver, Heart & Brain Health With Fasting, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 342 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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10 tips to live to be 100: ‘Far more than wishful thinking,' say longevity experts

7 healthy lifestyle changes that could help reduce risk of depression, says study: ‘Enormous benefits’

10 simple tips to help you reach 100, according to experts

Listener Q&A: Rob - Thank You

Intermittent fasting may protect the heart by controlling inflammation 

Improvement in coronary heart disease risk factors during an intermittent fasting/calorie restriction regimen: Relationship to adipokine modulations  

Intermittent Fasting as Possible Treatment for Heart Failure 

Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Brain Metabolism

Intermittent fasting contributes to aligned circadian rhythms through interactions with the gut microbiome

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

TONE DEVICE: Get on the exclusive VIP list to be notified when the 2nd Generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 342 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 342 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have sparkly things to share. It's been a sparkly whirlwind of a week last week. 

Vanessa Spina: I feel you. Yeah, I'm feeling sparkly too. Could you tell us what all the sparkles are about?

Melanie Avalon: All the sparkles-- well, first of all, not that the first thing I check when I wake up is Instagram, but it sort of is Peter Attia, did you see his post today? 

Vanessa Spina: No. 

Melanie Avalon: He posted about how seeing the Taylor Swift concert has ruined all other concerts for him.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's amazing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was like, my life is complete. My life is complete, but even more sparkly. So, I know you've seen this, but I don't know why the Fox Health Editor, like the official Fox Health Editor has decided that she thinks I'm an expert in longevity related topics, but she has, and she's so amazing, and so back-to-back last week and it was a really fast turnaround, but basically she asked for a lot of questions about my tips on longevity, and it was crazy because I had so much going on anyways, and then I got that, I had to work on that all day because she wanted it that night. So, we submitted it that night, and then the next day-- that morning at like 04:00 A.M., so essentially the next day, she published this huge article on Fox Health about longevity and heavily featured me. So, the title, if people would like to look it up, is 10 tips to live to be 100 "Far more than wishful thinking," say longevity experts. The far more than wishful thinking is from my quote, which is crazy. And then that quote actually opens up the story. And then she lists these ten different tips, and I think I talk about three of them. I think I'm the source for three of them. I talk about intermittent fasting, which is very exciting for longevity, and then I talk about preventing cardiovascular disease, which I learned mostly from Peter Attia. So, I talked about sort of nonconventional testing, so testing ApoB, which is something that InsideTracker tests, by the way, as well as Lp(a), which I learned about with Dr. Kahn. What's the third thing--? Oh, no, I gave her three things and I think she featured those two. 

But then what's even crazier is so that published and then she was like, "Oh, I'm writing another article tonight if you want to submit for that as well." So right after that, she had these questions about lifestyle health tips for depression. So, I gave her a lot of information, and then that published the next day, and it was called “7 healthy lifestyle changes that could help reduce risk of depression,” says study enormous benefits. And what's really crazy about that is, honestly, half of the article is my quotes which is crazy. And then what was kind of exciting to see was she like-- in one of the sections I talked about-- answers I gave her, I included more about wine and polyphenols and studies on that and depression, but she mostly just included the part about the alcohol and depression. But what's interesting, she sort of pitted me against another expert in the study, which felt like-- it felt exciting. 

And then what also happened which was kind of cool in the in between was the first study, the “10 tips to live to be 100,” the one where, like I said talked about intermittent fasting. So, the intermittent fasting part that I talked about. So, her tip number five was consider intermittent fasting. And she says caloric restriction is the only dietary approach shown in animal studies to extend lifespan, Avalon noted, Ahh that's me. And then she quotes me saying that time-restricted eating, also known as intermittent fasting, may be a formidable alternative especially in humans. The article talks about how there are different types of intermittent fasting. And then she quotes me again and I have a story about this quote, but she quotes me saying these include improved metabolic function, increased insulin sensitivity, reduced levels of inflammation, activation of the AMPK pathway, a chain of cellular proteins that regulates many biological processes, and the stimulation of autophagy, a sort of cellular cleanup process, Avalon said.

Okay, two things about this quote, and I need your opinion, Vanessa. So, one, when she originally published this quote, she actually misquoted me and put in MAPK, which is like a different thing. My publicist reached out to her and had her fix it, but not before the New York Post took the article and turned it into their own article. And in that article, they quoted me quoting to Fox, which was kind of exciting to see, but then they misquoted me. So, then the MAPK was in two major online news publication sources. So, I was having this freak out moment where I was like, people are going to think I'm not intelligent, but thankfully my publicist was able to get in touch with both editors and get it fixed. But what I don't know, because she actually inserted the definition for AMPK, and I think she was defining MAPK, not AMPK, but the weird thing is the definition could still sort of fit AMPK, but I'm not sure. So, hearing that definition activation of the AMPK pathway, a chain of cellular proteins that regulates many biological processes, do you think she was defining AMPK or MAPK with that? 

Vanessa Spina: Can you say it again? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, a chain of cellular proteins that regulates many biological processes. 

Vanessa Spina: Well, they both kind of are that. I mean, I'm more familiar with AMPK, which is like an enzymatic pathway, so I guess it could be classified as that. But I've heard people talk about MAPK, I just don’t-- and that pathway. I'm looking it up right now, mitogen activated protein kinase. It's also a family of enzymes, so it sounds like you could really define both of them that way. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's what I was thinking. I just think it's funny because I think she was talking about MAPK, because I would put the biological processes with that. If it had been AMPK, I think it would have been more about energy sensing, like you said. So, it's funny. I was talking to my publicist, I was like, can we get her to change the definition? And he was like, do we really need to? And I was like, I guess it's technically true. So that was just like a whirlwind. And it was all back-to-back, and then with the New York Post jumping in there and quoting me, so not only was it really exciting. Three things were really exciting, B I'm just so grateful that this health editor at Fox is just so kind and so nice and writing all of these stories about longevity and biohacking. She's actually the one who wrote the first article that I had in Fox about biohacking specifically. So, in any case, it's really exciting for a few different reasons. One, I'm just so grateful that the editor at Fox Health is writing all these stories about longevity and biohacking, and it's just really really exciting. And she said she wants to continue, including my insights, so I'm just so grateful for that. That's my week. So, how was your week, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: It's been really good. I'm so excited for you. I think that's just super amazing and it's so great when you form a relationship with a journalist because it's such a symbiotic relationship like they help us out, we help them out, and it's just like they're always looking for great content and authors, and sometimes you develop a really good relationship, and you could have a relationship with this journalist for decades. So, it's really amazing to cultivate those and amazing that she put you in so many huge articles back-to-back, and you're now a bona fide longevity expert, so that's amazing. 

[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was like, oh--, well, it was kind of funny because talking about impostor syndrome and stuff because she defines me in the articles as certain words, like as a biohacker or an influencer or like all these different words that I'm. She never calls me a podcaster, interestingly enough. But words I was struggling to fully embrace, I think. Well, maybe biohacker works for me. Yeah, it's very exciting. And like you said, yeah, I think the long-term relationship is nice. So, we shall see how it continues. 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. And thank you for the support. It actually what it feels like. I was talking with my acting friend. I was like, this feels like casting directors with acting and then getting the auditions the night before, and then they need it right then, and forming relationships and realizing that you are kind of helping them because they're really trying to fill a role. Oftentimes, casting directors on TV shows that are turning over fast and things like that, they need the people. And so, it's really helpful for them to find actors they know can do the parts really quick. And so, I feel like I'm becoming one of her resources for that, which is very exciting. So, I told her, I was like, I will talk, I will comment on anything and everything, you just said and she-- and I go, like, way overboard. So, she asked for a very simple answer, and I send her pages and pages with cited resources so it's probably helpful. 

Vanessa Spina: Very helpful. Yeah, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: So how is your week going? 

Vanessa Spina: It's been really good. I have a funny story to tell you. 

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about this. I'm so excited. Okay, I'm ready. 

Vanessa Spina: So, Scott from MD Logic, both of our supplement partner, he had been sending me the latest samples of Tone Protein and I was testing them out this week. I tested them out on two different, two or three—three days in total. Like, I had just done them on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. And this is the final, final, final version. So, I was super excited to try them. And they have a sweetener in it called monk fruit, which a lot of people are probably familiar with, which I like. We had been trying different sweeteners, like with Stevia and Erythritol and like some, we're trying to find sweeteners that are not banned anywhere, like Europe. Monk fruit looks like it's not fully approved here yet, but it's going to be just like allulose. So, Stevia and Erythritol might be in the European version. But anyway, we kind of settled on monk fruit, which is something that I have never had any issues with, always liked it as a sweetener.

So, I tested out the versions and I kind of compartmentalized that as something separate. And I started having what I thought were some really big issues with the Tone Device, which is my breath ketone analyzer, which is getting ready, we're in the final days of preparing the last units and getting ready to do the final inspection, ship everything out, like really in the final days. And I've been so excited about how incredibly sensitive and accurate this new second generation is. As you know, Melanie Avalon, and as probably some listeners by now know. And it started really acting up on me and I started to get very concerned that there was like a huge issue, because it wasn't just one of them, it was both of them. They were giving me these really high numbers in the morning when I knew that I wasn't in ketosis and I could tell from the blood, and you know we talked about the ratios, and so I was like, maybe it's like something weird happening with a pregnancy where my ratios of beta hydroxybutyrate and breath acetone ketones are decoupling because of the pregnancy. I was like, I don't know what it is, but it was really really worrying me. So, then--

Melanie Avalon: Were you like just not testing any ketones? 

Vanessa Spina: So, in the morning, I usually have 0.2, 0.3 blood ketones and the Tone Device is the same. It's like 2 or 3. So, I'm used to seeing the same thing every day, and suddenly it was showing me 26, 27, 29. And I'm like, these are really high numbers, like, equivalent to 2.7, 2.9, or 3 millimolar ketone, right? Like, ten times more, like, deep, deep in ketosis. But the blood was still showing me 0.2, so I was really concerned. So, second morning, it happened again. I asked Luca if he could test Tone Devices, which he loves playing with, you know, it's like a fun toy, like it counts down, you blow into it makes a beep and everything. 

Melanie Avalon: So cute. Oh, my gosh. You're using your child. Oh, my gosh. 

Vanessa Spina: So, Luca tested for me in the morning and he gets a 4 and a 6. And I'm like--

Melanie Avalon: To get paid.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] No, he's my unpaid intern. So, he gets a 4 and a 6. And I'm like, that lines up because babies and toddlers are going in and out of ketosis all the time and it was the morning time. And he doesn't eat like a high-carb, high-processed diet. So, I was like, okay, that tracks. So, then I asked Pete to test and he gets a 0 and a 1 every time because he doesn't eat low carb. He does intermittent fasting, but he eats donuts at night. He's having mochas with sugar, he's just not eating low carb. There's a whole other story with that and why he can eat high carb and he can do great with it. But anyway--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, teaser. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, 0 and 1, okay, perfect. So, mine are still like through the roof, and I'm just like what is going on? It must be me, because I have two units. They're both testing the same numbers, showing 27, 28, 29, and they're showing consistently accurate results for Luca and for Pete. So, I keep going this way for like three days, and I'm just like, messaging my rep at the factory, and I'm just like, I'm really worried like something bad is happening with the Tones, there's just something is going on at the sensor, I don't know what it is. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.

So, anyway, I'm like, what have I done differently this week? The only thing was Tone Protein. So, I'm like, "Okay, it must be the monk fruit." So, I start going down these rabbit holes of like monk fruit. I'm like, "Okay, so it's this luo han guo, it's like a Chinese fruit," maybe it's having one of those weird reactions, right? Like We talked about with sometimes like cabbage, it'll have some sugars in it, like raffinose that'll give these crazy high false positives. So, I'm like, it must be the monk fruit. I am writing to Scott, I'm like, "This version is not going to work. We have to go back to the drawing board. No monk fruit, it's totally messing with my Tone Device. And whenever that happens, I get worried because I don't want the sensor to get damaged." So he's like, man, that sucks. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, the sensor to get damaged, can it be damaged by?

Vanessa Spina: So, there's certain things that like-- that's why I'm always saying test in the fasted state, is if you are like, you say someone is testing after they brush their teeth, the mint or after they use mouthwash, the mint or the alcohol on there can mess with the sensor if it's done repeatedly. So, this was like a few days that I was using it and I'm like, I don't want the sensor to get damaged here, so I was really upset. 

We have to go back to the drawing board on Tone Protein. It's going to be like huge delay. We have to figure out a different sweetener. We can't use monk fruit. And Scott's just like, "Oh man, that's brutal, I can't believe the monk fruit is doing that." And then he goes, "Wait, it's not the monk fruit." And I'm like on the edge of my seat just watching the bubbles of the three dots like what does he think it is? What does he think it is? 

Melanie Avalon: It's such a vibe. 

Vanessa Spina: And I'm like, what is it? what is it? And it's like 11 at night for me, which is really late for me, I'm just like,--

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I'm okay, I'm--

Vanessa Spina: So, he's like, the vanilla, because it's whey protein isolate, like super pure vanilla and monk fruit. The vanilla had alcohol in it. And that's a very common thing, is like when vanilla is processed and sold as like an extract or as an additive, it has alcohol in it. And I remembered like--

Melanie Avalon: The dried vanilla, doesn't it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, the one that they're using had-- it's a natural vanilla. They were trying to get the most natural vanilla. So, this natural vanilla had alcohol in it to bind it or something. And I remember so many times being at the store buying vanilla and having to try really hard to find one without alcohol in it because most of them just say vanilla extract. But then when you look at the ingredients, there's alcohol. Sometimes, like, soya sauce has that too, it's very common. It's not a lot, but apparently Scott said there was enough in the one sample that I had to be like a tenth of a glass of wine. And nothing messes with the Tone Device more than alcohol in terms of getting false positives. Because as were talking about, if you are in ketosis and you get pulled over, you can blow like a false positive on a breathalyzer. So, alcohol looks very similar to the ketone to acetone in the breath, which is why you can't use mouthwash because it has alcohol in it. And then anything like really really strong, like mint and toothpaste will also have a similar effect. So, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you figured it out." Because that's exactly what the readings would be if I had had a tenth of a glass of wine. It would be like showing around 27, 28, 29. So I had mentioned to him that alcohol messes with the device, but he figured out what it was and we’re like, "Oh, my gosh, here we go, it's not the monk fruit, we don't have to start over." And I could-- I was so relieved that the Tone Device is totally fine.

It takes about 36 hours for your body to metabolize alcohol fully. I'm not an expert on alcohol like you are, but I knew that it would take a day and a half, maybe more, and by Saturday afternoon, it was back to totally accurate readings, giving me the exact numbers that I was expecting to get and no more of the 27, 28, 29. So, I was like messaging factory. I was like, "Don't worry, everything's fine." It was just so many things happening that I was like, "Oh, my gosh, we're going to have to go back to the drawing board of the protein, we're going to have to do some major fixes with the Tone Device." And thankfully, it was neither, so I was super relieved and just really happy that Scott figured out it was the alcohol because I never would have thought that there was alcohol in there. 

And then I was like, well, I don't want to be testing these [laughs] samples anymore, they have alcohol. And I also don't want alcohol in Tone Protein. So, it was kind of a great thing that we caught it because I would have been not very happy if we'd gone to the final steps and I had seen alcohol in there. So now Scott's been doing research all week on finding a vanilla that is not artificial, is pure, and I sent him some information on this powdered vanilla bourbon. He's like, it doesn't alcohol? and I'm like no, no, it's just called bourbon vanilla or vanilla bourbon, and it's just pure vanilla from Madagascar. So, I'm trying to get that in it instead. But I'm really glad that there's not going to be any alcohol in it. I'm so relieved. It was not the Tone Devices, it was just the alcohol. And yeah, it was a crazy few days of being super panicked and then very, very, very relieved. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that's crazy. I did not know-- I always thought alcohol burned out when it was-- you know it cooks out or when it's dry, I didn't realize it could still be there.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know how much they cook it or I don't really know much about the vanilla that we were using in the sample other than the fact that it was natural, but [laughs] yeah, I never would have thought that it had alcohol in it and even though I've seen so many commercial preparations of vanilla that have alcohol. And you know Scott didn't realize that that was important to me either. I'm just trying to make sure that Tone Protein has few ingredients as possible. I'm like, I just want whey protein isolate-- pure whey protein isolate, and basically vanilla and leucine that we're adding the leucine, vanilla and a healthy sweetener, So, yeah, it was a crazy roller coaster moment. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow, wow. I'm excited though for you that they figured it out. And that'll be a really big I don't like using the word "selling point." That's a really nice thing to share with listeners about, just the purity of the ingredients and the quality and vanilla is-- There's like a whole vanilla world, like vanilla-- you know people look for really high-quality vanilla. So, when you find the vanilla that you'll be using, that'll be something really important or something great to share about the protein.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I was like, Scott, this may have been like a stressful few days, but I have a great story to share on The Intermittent Fasting Podcast and on my podcast. It was so funny that happened to really be connected to both of them, but yeah, that's my story, I was really excited to tell you about it. 

[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can imagine that moment of thinking that you have to start over. 

Vanessa Spina: With both my products that I'm so excited on. 

[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my God. Oh, you're right. Ahh wow, wow. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, but thankfully it's all good, so yeah that's how my week's been going with this. That was last week, so this week is amazing and Luca said I love you to me for the first time about an hour ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, whoa. 

Vanessa Spina: We were having dinner. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, it is like moment, hold on. 

Vanessa Spina: I know, I know. We were just sitting there having dinner and he said, mima. And he calls me mima. He calls me mommy sometimes. He said mima and he just gave me this big smile, and I looked at him and I said, I love you, and he said, I love you. Peter and I were both like oh, my gosh, he said I love you. There're just so many firsts like that right now. But he's just the sweetest kid. He's also been doing this thing at night when we put him to bed, he has to give us both forehead kisses, and it feels like a small little bird is like going over and kissing your forehead. He's got like this tiny little mouth you know so he's just like [smacks tongue] he goes back and forth. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like butterfly kisses? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, butterfly kisses. He goes back and forth between the two of us and we both just look at each other and we're both just, like, melting. Yeah, yeah, it's been-- I'm like, you made my entire day. I was already excited because it was our recording day, which always makes me happy all day, but yeah that put things over the top. 

Melanie Avalon: It's a magical night, you got to write this down. Wait, September. Yes, the same day for us, September 19th, 2023. I got to ask my parents if they remember the first time I said I love you. That's funny because I never-- because I think-- when you think about that romantically like the first time a person says I love you, but I've never thought about it in that context, that's so cute. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean, he's just starting to talk so much, and he's just saying the cutest things and repeating everything. But I've said I love you to him many times and I think he knows what it means. Like, just the way he smiled and looked at me and said it was just like I melted into a puddle. But yeah, feeling really great about life and everything. And I'm so thankful to be here and excited to be here. Excited to answer listener questions too.

Melanie Avalon: Life is so magical. It really is. Even when it's not, it is. 

Vanessa Spina: I was so excited earlier this week about our podcast together. My interview on your podcast hitting really high on the charts. I think it was above 20 on the US charts on nutrition. But it was just fun to see it getting such a great response, and I was really excited about that too, and sharing it with you. Just love doing this podcast with you, doing other episodes with you, and it's all just so awesome and wonderful.

Melanie Avalon: No, I feel the exact same way. I was so excited to air that and then the responses from people have just been so wonderful. It's been really great. And I've been personally-- you actually-- I didn't realize that my social media manager was-- I did realize, but I didn't really realize that he was adding Taylor Swift music to my post. And so, Vanessa I was like, "The Taylor Swift song," and I was like, "the Taylor Swift Song." 

[laughter]

Wait, Vanessa Spina, so now guess what I am doing. I just had an email conversation with like I was like, "Okay, so going forward, I'm going to send over for every post the exact Taylor Swift song I want and the exact lyric, and the exact section because I want it to match up the content." So, now my Instagram will be optimized for-- so when I post this week, the posts about you, I picked out that specific Taylor Swift part, although he kind of didn't do the right part yesterday, so that's okay, though, it kind of came off a little bit how do I say this G-rated.

[laughter] 

See because I wanted to do, it was a post about breath ketones and so I wanted to do something from Taylor Swift's song Dress because she makes a lot of breathy sounds in it. So, I had a section picked out that has a lot of breathy sounds and I told him which part to use, but he used the wrong breathy sound part of the song. I think the lyric is like, "I only bought this dress so you could take it off." So that was not like not like what I was going for.

[laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. That's so funny. 

Melanie Avalon: But then I brought it back because I was like, well, actually, this post is about burning fat and so maybe that's the vibe. But I'm not saying, “Vanessa, I only bought this dress so you could take it off. “

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Oye my stomach hurts. And I laughed too much right now. Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, it's so funny, so funny. I feel like at the end of the day, I'd be like, "Let me just do it, because I just can't, that's just too much."

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. 

Vanessa Spina: it would just annoy me, but eventually I'm sure he'll get the hang of it. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, because the problem is. So, with Instagram stories, when you pick the song, you flip through the lyrics and you pick the lyrics, so it's easy. But with the post, there're no lyrics that pop up, you just drag the slider, so you have to find the section of the song without seeing any lyrics. So, last night I spent literally probably 20 minutes deciding all of the songs for Farmer Lee Jones and sent him the timestamp and the lyrics, so we'll see how that goes, but I don't know. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, "Melanie Avalon, is this a good use of your time? I'm like, yeah, but then I'm like, yes, it is." So, aww, we'll see how that goes. On that note, shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina: Excited to get into these. 

Melanie Avalon: Would you like to read the first one from Rob? 

Vanessa Spina: So, the first question is from Rob and the subject is, “Thank you. Hello ladies, I love the podcast, I want to thank the both of you for spreading the word about intermittent fasting. I have been IF-ing since January and I have lost 25 pounds with a 16 to 20-hour fasting window. I got my father to fast as well. He lost more weight than I have and his health has gotten better of course. I was thinking the other day while listening to your podcast. Your podcast has not only helped many listeners lose weight, but you are literally saving lives. I cannot thank you enough. I will enjoy many more healthy years with my father,” aww, I'm going to cry “with my father because I started listening to you two wonderful ladies, thank you.” 

“Thank you. I do not have a question, but a suggestion for the podcast. I recently found out that I have fatty liver. I think that it would be a great idea if you could go over the impact that intermittent fasting has on organs. Ladies, keep doing what you're doing.” Aww, wow, that was so beautiful. Thank you so much, Rob. Really really such kind and sincere words and I just appreciate that so much. And I feel what you're feeling of getting those years back with your dad like it’s seriously going to make me cry, so thanks for sharing all that. 

Melanie Avalon: I know I was sitting there just like taking that in. I mean, we read all of these wonderful messages and I have social media interactions, but I think we forget that these are like real people, maybe I do. I don't want to speak for you. I'm just visualizing that this is real people listening, making these lifestyle changes and experiencing the benefits and it's just so incredible and wonderful. 

Vanessa Spina: I think it's hard sometimes because our audience are kind of like faceless, like except, for like you said, when we interact on Instagram, and it's why I love interacting on Instagram and Facebook because people have photos, you can actually put a face to the listeners, to the community because it's hard to visualize sometimes who's out there listening, like you know-- you see the numbers, but you don't necessarily have a visual idea of what that is so, yeah. I totally get it and when people personalize it, I always say, if you just tell me what you're doing when you're listening, when you tag me in a post you're like take a story of you, out for a walk or a hike or wherever you are, It just fills my heart so much to see where people are, what they're doing, they're driving in the car, or I'll just get a photo of the dashboard with the podcast playing, and I'm like, that's amazing like you're listening while you're driving to work or whatever. Yeah, it's amazing, but to hear your personal story and I applaud you, Rob, for getting your dad into intermittent fasting, and you're the one who's really helping him, so that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, it's so exciting when the family jumps on board as well. Yeah, none of my family has jumped on board, I don't think. Nope, just me, just me. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I've had some people definitely interested and have tried things here and there, but I have part of our extended family on Pete's side that was already into paleo and all the stuff, so that was kind of cool. But I feel like you can't really get people into it, and it's hard to when they're your family, because they're just like-- they're always going to be like little Melanie or little Vanessa or whatever. You're never going to come across as like an authority to them. But I think it's when you do what Rob's doing, you go out and do it, you lose 25 pounds, feeling great, getting these great results, and then your family or your friends come and go like, "Hey, what are you doing? I'd love to do that too." That's the best scenario as opposed to being like, "I did this, I love it, now I'm going to make everyone in my family and friends do it because they won't, they will not." 

Melanie Avalon: No. Yeah, actually to comment on that. And that's how I ended my Newsweek piece that came out where I shared my story about my diet history and coming to fasting and biohacking and all the things. The way I ended that story and this is why I genuinely, truly believe, I don't have any goal to change anybody, I just want to experience things for myself and then share. And because it has such a profound effect on me, like with intermittent fasting, share it with others, I don't want to force it upon anybody. So, I actually have that-- I think that's a really good, so like with my family, I never try to convert them or anything because I think especially a lot of people can fall into profound dietary changes. It will have such an effect on their life and so they just want to tell everybody and they want everybody to do it, but I think people only listen if they're ready, so I just wait until people come to me asking questions, and then I provide my answer, but that I'm aware of-- I really don't I don't really ever walk up and try to tell somebody to change what they're doing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's not effective. I really believe you have to inspire people and they have to feel like it's their idea. And anytime you deliberately try to influence someone as opposed to inspiring them, it just doesn't work like people just-- My favorite thing is nobody likes unsolicited advice, nobody. No, you know It's just a losing game to play, whereas if you just do what you're doing and people are inspired by you then it's so much more effective. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. And actually, that happened with my, I'm thinking, my mom has probably before-- my mom will come and ask me health-related questions, she will for sure. My sister will occasionally; brother, nope, dad, nope, and then sister-in-law, she actually reached out for preparing for her wedding and was curious my thoughts on different diets and things. So, Rob. 

Vanessa Spina: Way to go, Rob. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Thank you for that and very happy for you and your dad. Yeah, that's absolutely incredible. And this was a great suggestion and I went down the rabbit hole-- Okay, well, first of all when he says he would love to hear about the impact that IF has on organs. I had never really contemplated the definition of organs. Almost everything in your body is an organ besides the water. But even your eye-- like within your eye there're different organs, so I was like, "Oh, this is basically your whole body." Because especially people will even make the argument that your skin is an organ. So, I decided to focus on, I think the main things people think of. And since Rob was talking about fatty liver, so I focused on the liver and the heart and the brain with a bonus of the pancreas. 

So, what's interesting about all of this is-- So I individually researched each of these three organs, there was so much overlap in that intermittent fasting would create these conditions that would benefit each of these things. For example, like the anti-inflammatory effect was huge for a lot of them, actually all of them. And it is sort of like, I would say third party, but it's three things, so fourth party factor that really seemed to influence a lot of this was actually the gut, like the effect that intermittent fasting would have on the gut microbiome and then how that would affect the liver or how that would affect the brain. But to go through them one by one. 

So, the heart, and I thought this was really important, especially like I was talking about with that Fox article about longevity, which by the way, we will put links to those articles in the show notes. When she asked me for my tips for longevity, it was so hard because I was like there're so many things, what should I talk about? And the first thing that really obviously came to mind was intermittent fasting, which is why I talked to her about that. And then the second thing, like I mentioned earlier, was cardiovascular health, because ischemic heart disease is the number one cause of mortality. The more I read specifically Peter Attia's book Outlive, the more and more I learned about just the importance of trying to prevent cardiovascular disease risk and-- By the way, Vanessa, do you have thoughts? He is so pro statin use. Even last night, the podcast I was listening to, he was saying that to paraphrase something about how if you want to avoid cardiovascular disease, you're really going to have to be on pharmaceuticals like a statin. Even if you-- even if you like, that's like almost a direct quote from him. 

Vanessa Spina: I couldn't agree less. I mean, after studying physiology and biochemistry and seeing how many drugs like statins and proton-pump inhibitors are interfering with the body's physiology, it's similar to me, the reasoning behind cutting out your gallbladder or cutting out your appendix unless it's exploded or exploding. Cutting out vital organs that are there for good reason, I just don't understand, and statins really mess with hormones. Proton-pump inhibitors have so many downstream negative side effects because you're messing with basic physiology. And I say that with no qualifications whatsoever as a medical professional, I am nothing of the sort, but it's just my personal opinion. I know there're probably some situations where pharmaceutical drugs can be helpful and needed, but I'm really surprised that he has that opinion.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. I am really interested in PCSK9 inhibitors, which are the newer therapeutic pharmaceutical target for cardiovascular disease. I think his argument is, I don't want to get this wrong, but basically it's that if genetically your liver is in a situation where it just creates more cholesterol or-- I was listening to another episode and there's like three different things that can happen with LDL receptors in the liver that can create problematic lipid levels, leading to potentially cardiovascular disease, and a lot of it is genetic, and so there's not much diet modification that you can do to affect it. Like, you can affect it a little bit, but it's hard to go all the way, I guess. And so, I guess his argument is that that's just something that you would have to do if you want to completely abolish cardiovascular disease risk. 

What's interesting then, though, as well, especially after interviewing Dr. Kahn and learning all about Lp(a), which I also talk about in that Fox article, if you have, from what I read in that book, the latest on Lp(a) is if you have that genetic tendency, diet and lifestyle don't really-- Oh, wait, so diet and lifestyle barely affect it and statins may not affect it either. So, yeah, I don't know, that's a whole rabbit hole.

Back to intermittent fasting's effects on the heart. So, there are quite a few studies on the potential beneficial effects of intermittent fasting on cardiovascular disease risk. And oh, so I mentioned earlier that there's a common factor affecting all of these things, obesity. So, the metabolic state of obesity is highly correlated to different other diseases in the body. So visceral adipose tissue, which is the really detrimental type of body fat. So, we have different types of body fat; subcutaneous fat is the type of fat that you can see and pinch under your skin, and it's relatively benign compared to visceral adipose tissue, which is around your organs, and it's actually inflammatory.

And so, it releases inflammatory adipokines, basically inflammatory signals that can have a negative effect. And it's probably that inflammatory state created by that fat tissue, which is encouraging these other disease processes. So, anything that is going to reduce visceral adipose tissue specifically will likely beneficial for not only disease states, but our organs in general. And intermittent fasting has been shown to specifically benefit visceral adipose tissue. And then by benefit it, I mean reduce it. And then on top of that, super interesting, there are studies on how intermittent fasting can promote the browning of white adipose tissue. So basically, turning white adipose tissue, which is the storage inflammatory form, into brown adipose tissue, which is metabolically active and actually burns calories, and that can potentially have a beneficial effect on the heart as well as the liver, which is super cool. 

And then studies have shown that intermittent fasting can have favorable effects on lipid panels, so those cholesterol panels, although I will add the caveat that they can be complicated to interpret, which I also talk about in the Fox article. And then I also found some more specific things related to the heart-- Oh, actually, before that, the heart actually can be fueled pretty well on ketones as well, so that is a benefit there. And so, I found one study, and it talked about intermittent fasting protecting the heart by controlling inflammation and they actually found that intermittent fasting raised levels in a trial of 67 people called Galectin-3. So, it actually can help reduce inflammation. It's been linked to-- levels of it have been linked to heart failure, high levels are protective basically against heart failure, so that is very cool. And then another study by the same author. So that author was Dr. Benjamin Horne. They had a paper published in 2020 as well as a paper in 2017, and they found that intermittent fasting could beneficial for the heart and lower the risk of developing heart failure. 

So, long story short, lots of potentially beneficial effects on the heart including specifically the heart organ itself with the ketones and the anti-inflammatory markers, as well as the cholesterol lipid situation of the body, which would be affecting the potential for cardiovascular disease, so that's the heart. 

So, the liver, which is what Rob asked about. I find it so interesting, the history of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. Vanessa are you familiar with it? How basically it like wasn't a thing and so doctors would think that-- well, it was a thing, but it wasn't a realized thing, so doctors for a while, a lot of doctors would think that patients were just lying about not drinking. 

Vanessa Spina: No, I didn't know that was a thing. That's absolutely hilarious. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh okay, so I'm glad-- not that I'm glad that you didn't know that. 

Vanessa Spina: Story time. 

[laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Not that I'm glad you didn't know that. But when I was saying it, I was like, I feel like everybody knows this. Not to say that it's bad that you didn't know. It just I'm glad you didn't know it. Okay, so because basically, the primary cause of liver failure and psoriasis historically was always alcoholic liver disease. And patients started coming in with markers of psoriasis, but they would say they weren't drinking. And so, I know this is a thing because I've just read this so many different places and Peter talks about it in his book seeing it, that the doctors would just think the patients were lying like, clearly they are drinking because they have psoriasis. But what it ended up being was nonalcoholic fatty liver disease which is why that word is defined in the negative, because they're saying, "Oh, it's not alcoholic fatty liver disease. It's just fatty liver disease, not from alcohol." And it's from fatty liver from our diet today honestly.

And nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is actually the primary cause leading to liver failure and the need for a liver transplant. So, it's a huge issue. And a sad thing about it is that it's relatively silent. You wouldn't know-- You know compared to things like brain issues like we'll talk about with memory loss and dementia and cognition or even like blood sugar issues with cravings and things like that, like fatty liver you're not going to know if you have a fatty liver unless you really check for it. So, the best way really to address nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is to lose weight and clear that liver of fat. And so intermittent fasting can be a great path to that to help reduce the fat levels in the liver. 

And so, there're a lot of different ways. I found an article called The Role of Intermittent Fasting in the Management of Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease, a Narrative Review. They listed quite a few ways, potential mechanisms for how intermittent fasting can benefit those with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. So, some things I already mentioned was the visceral adipose tissue. So that's associated with developing nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and intermittent fasting can help reduce that. They found that specifically having a hormonal profile with low leptin and high adiponectin is protective against nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. And so, there are some studies in intermittent fasting showing that exact profile of low leptin and high adiponectin. That said, some of the studies show just low leptin without the adiponectin effect. So, it might be a little bit nuanced, but there could be something hormonal going on there.

So going back to the gut, like I mentioned earlier, so gut dysbiosis can actually affect how we process choline as well as how we release bile and those effects can have a potentially negative effect leading to or encouraging nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and intermittent fasting can help address that. And in one study, true story, they had mice with gut dysbiosis, it was studying nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and they found that the mice that could not-- this is so fascinating. So, in addition to the visceral adipose tissue affecting nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, the aforementioned white adipose tissue turning to brown fat, so white fat turning to brown fat can potentially be protective against nonalcoholic fatty liver disease.

They found in a study that they had mice with gut dysbiosis. They had some mice that were resistant to intermittent fasting. So, the ones that could not do intermittent fasting, their white adipose tissue would not turn into brown fat. This is still fascinating, this is multilayered. So, their white adipose tissue would not turn into brown fat when they could not do intermittent fasting until they did a fecal transplant and then they could. So, that's kind of crazy. So, there's probably a lot going on with both fasting, the gut microbiome, white adipose tissue, brown adipose tissue, and fatty liver. And then just as a little bow on everything. Some studies have found that alternate-day fasting reduces liver enzymes, which are associated with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. So, lot of potential benefits for the liver.

And then the brain. Oh, my goodness, how am I just at the brain? Okay, so fascinating, fun fact about the brain, it represents 2% of our body weight, but accounts for 25% of our resting metabolic rate, which is kind of crazy to think about because we think about all the time, like, "I want to burn more calories," and we really just think about that as, like physical activity, but a quarter of your resting metabolic rate is likely your brain. So, I find that really interesting. So, our brain neurons, they actually have all of the enzymes that aren't required to use ketones to produce energy. So, our brain does require glucose. Our brain cannot only work on ketones. It cannot only work on fatty acids, but it can when glucose is down, it can use ketones as an alternative substrate.

And also, something that's really interesting is, even though the brain accounts for 25%, like I said of our resting metabolic rate, it's really interesting in that it doesn't store any of its own energy. So, like our muscles for example, they store with inside of them energy for that movement. So when you're doing a bicep curl or a tricep curl, your muscle, it's got its energy within the muscle to fuel that movement, which is actually why people think that you have to completely deplete glycogen levels throughout your whole body to enter ketosis, no that's not accurate. You just have to deplete your liver glycogen. Your muscles still have glycogen within them.

The brain does not store any energy, so it's got to rely on what it gets from the blood stream which is partly being determined by your liver, which is why it is important to keep your liver in tip-top shape, so when glucose is down, it can switch to ketones and fuel pretty well on them. So, ketones and BHB specifically, in addition to being a great fuel for the brain, they also have a signaling effect on the brain and they can produce something known as BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, and that is a super important nerve growth factor family in the brain, and so its involved in helping the neurons survive and synopsis functioning and hippocampus neurogenesis, so creating new brain cells there. It's involved in learning, it's involved in memory, it's really really important basically. So, fasting has been shown to up regulate BDNF levels which is great for the brain, we definitely want to encourage that.

Fasting has been shown to reduce inflammation which has beneficial effect on the brain. It has been shown to increase something called PGC-1 alpha which regulates mitochondrial biogenesis, so what that means is that it is in charge creating new mitochondria or I don’t know if it creates it, but it’s in charge of regulating the process of new mitochondria in our brain cells which are basically the energy creating part of the cells, so intermittent fasting encourages that. It encourages something called SIRT3. You guys might have heard me talk about sirtuins and how they relate to longevity, especially if you have listened to any of my episodes with David Sinclair. SIRT3 specifically is neuroprotective. Fasting has been shown to upregulate that. Fasting has been shown as we talk a lot about autophagy on this show, which is the breakdown of problematic proteins in the body and it really helps counteract these damaged and misfolded proteins and that's something that's highly associated with neurodegenerative disease. Although again, huge caveat that there're a lot of debates in that world about cause and-effect, causation, correlation. 

Regardless, fasting-- the autophagy process in fasting, quoting from a study, "Can potentially exert a protective role in neurodegenerative diseases." I will note though that study then went on to talk about how fasted mice-- basically they had an increase of autophagy in their neurons, in their brain cells, but it was not enough to degrade the beta amyloid, which actually increased from fasting due to the enhanced uptake from the, "extracellular space." I read that, literally-- I read that over and over and I was like, I think that's a big deal because it didn't really comment on it beyond that. So, then I went and asked ChatGPT to break it down for me. Not that I really trust ChatGPT very much anymore, but I wouldn't be scared though by that idea, because in general, that study and everything I've read has talked about how the autophagy process tends to beneficial and something that we want. 

Okay, intermittent fasting has been shown to increase GABA, which is the main excitatory neurotransmitter in our brains. So, it's involved in processing information and our excitability factor and also neuroplasticity. So, the ability for our brain to change beneficially and grow and learn, and create new things, it's also involved in learning and memory. And so fasting has been shown to upregulate that. And then to bring it all full circle about at the beginning how I was saying that there are these common effects and everything. So, the effects on the gut microbiome can actually potentially, probably affect the brain, so intermittent fasting has an effect there, as well as-- this is interesting, so more than 80% of patients with Alzheimer's actually have type 2 diabetes or altered fasting blood glucose levels. So, there's probably a huge connection between metabolic health and neurodegenerative disease. Fasting, as we've talked about so much, can have a really really beneficial effect on blood glucose levels. 

And then there've been myriad of studies looking at IF and cognition and a lot of them find increases in cognition, benefits on memory. I have quite a few here, so I'll put a link to them in the show notes. And then just to wrap it all up with a bow-- So, when we think of circadian rhythms, we think of sleep, like, that's what most people think of. But actually, we have peripheral circadian rhythms, so every single organ-- I don't know if every single organ, I should probably fact check that they might. A lot of organs in our body have inherent circadian rhythms within themselves and when those get messed up and not in line with our environment, they can encourage disease processes. That was actually one of the very first things I read when I sat down to research this was how circadian dis-alignment related to nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and how intermittent fasting might benefit that circadian rhythm and benefit nonalcoholic fatty liver disease that way.

But in any case, to tie it all together, intermittent fasting can help with the rhythms-- the circadian rhythms within our organs and help align them so that they will be lined up, essentially, which is really important to ward off disease processes. Ahh, that is all I have to say about that and that's just three organs. Oh, then I was going to say the pancreas. My bonus point for the pancreas was that we know that people hit type 2 diabetes. They get basically-- the pancreas gets worn out from overproducing insulin and so the effects of intermittent fasting to reduce blood sugar levels, reduce insulin levels, I think understandably, can have a profound effect on the pancreas, the health of the pancreas. Now I'm done. Thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: Wow. I'm like absolutely speechless. That was the most comprehensive overview. I think that was a lot more than Rob was bargaining for. What is his question? Because he was just noting that maybe you should look into it or maybe we should look into it. But boy, did you look into it, because that was absolutely incredible. Thank you for sharing all of that. I learned so much. It was so amazing. I think for me, you went through almost every organ, especially the most important ones. With fatty liver, I first got really interested in fasting and fatty liver by Dr. Jason Fung. He had these amazing blogs, I'm sure they're still up there, and articles where he would talk about how you can reverse fatty liver and basically metabolic disease, metabolic syndrome with fasting. And he just explains it so well, but it completely makes sense. I think it's helpful sometimes to hear it from a physician's perspective, especially like a nephrologist or kidney specialist who has so much knowledge and expertise on those organs, so I would definitely point you there if you want to read up more about fasting and fatty liver because he just covers it so so well. But I don't think you're going to need anything else after the way that Melanie just answered that question. So, yeah, that was absolutely amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. And thank you for pointing that out. We should do a deep dive on the kidneys. I feel like they're so underappreciated. And I find it really interesting that a lot of the doctors that I really really respect are nephrologists like Dr. Fung, Rick Johnson. And I just feel like people don't talk about the kidneys that much. But those doctors, they learn so much about-- I feel like they realize things, like Dr. Fung and Rick. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And it's just always so refreshing to hear traditionally or conventionally trained MD's talk about these alternatives that we're super into, like time restricted eating, intermittent fasting. Of course, there's so much research supporting it as well now, but not every single doctor is open to it, to these kinds of things, so it's always refreshing when someone as brilliant as Dr. Rick Johnson or Dr. Jason Fung. They explain it so well and they're both so good at explaining things and making them easy to grasp. So, yeah, some more great resources there. Because sometimes, especially family members, need to see things written by a doctor to fully-- Also, because they explain things so well, but that's just another resource there.

But I agree with you. I mean, the whole body-- it really comes down to the whole body because I think of our body as trillions of cells and then those cells making up different tissues, and those tissues are organs, and that's what we're made of. So, it's interesting how it can affect organs individually, especially organs that are not at homeostasis. But the body has this incredible program which is homeostasis and oftentimes not in every situation of course, there's definitely genetic conditions, as you mentioned earlier, and disease conditions, pathologies. There're definitely situations where you need pharmaceuticals, medical intervention, conventional medical care, especially with acute injuries and pain. I'm so thankful that we have the medical care that we do.

But there're also situations where if the disease is or the pathological state like nonalcoholic fatty liver is caused by lifestyle, that a lifestyle approach can help reverse it and can help just restore homeostasis just by us getting out of the body's way and fasting. To me, there's no better way of doing that than with fasting. You're literally just getting out of your body's way and letting it heal and go back to homeostasis, which is its prime directive and we often take it off course with different approaches, so I think fasting is such a powerful restorative tool and intermittent fasting especially. So, thank you for that comprehensive overview. 

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. Thank you for listening. It was very long and that's just like the--

Vanessa Spina: Tip of the iceberg. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's so much that's just like what I found briefly. So, yeah, thank you for the question, Rob, and this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email question@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode342. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl.

And oh, I did launch an Instagram account for my AvalonX supplement line and I'm going to do fun giveaways and things like that on there. I actually like-- by the time this airs, it'll be way long gone, but I actually right now have a giveaway on it. MD Logic is releasing a vitamin D capsule supplement and so I'm doing a promotion, giving away 10 bottles of that before it launches. So that was on the Instagram, so hopefully you're following that. And so that handle is @avalonxsupplements because AvalonX was taken. So, yes, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: I think that's everything. I'm excited for the next episode and more wonderful questions from listeners. 

Melanie Avalon: Same. Although one last question. We talked all about your protein. How can people get on the email list or get the protein depending on when this airs? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Thank you. So, for Tone Protein, you just go toneprotein.com. And for the Tone Device, you can go to tonedevice.com. So, both of those are pretty easy, self-explanatory, but you can sign up to get the exclusive launch discounts on both Tone Protein and the Tone Device. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, we will put all of that in the show notes. And this has been absolutely magical and I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Talk to you next week. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye 

Vanessa Spina: bBye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

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Oct 29

Episode 341: Special Guest: Kara Collier, CGMs, Glucose Control, Calibration, Placement, Types Of Sensors, Nocturnal Hypoglycemia, Fructosamine, Finding Patterns, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 341 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

.LMNT: The Days Of Rationing Down To Your Last Stick Pack Are Over – Grapefruit Salt Is Here To Stay. For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At Melanieavalon.Com/Emfemaillist!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter, And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: Grapefruit Salt is here to stay. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

AVALONX EMF BLOCKING PRODUCTS: Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At Melanieavalon.Com/Emfemaillist!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #130 - Kara Collier

Kara's Personal Story

Listener Q&A: Arietta - My doctor said a CGM would just confuse me. How do I make an appeal to her?

Listener Q&A: Ana - Is a 2 week trial period long enough to get a picture of how your body responds to the foods you eat?

how does a CGM measure interstitial fluid?

Listener Q&A: Jill - Deep dive into the actual accuracy…

Listener Q&A: Nisha - I was so confused by the difference between finger prick blood draw...

Listener Q&A: Linda - My blood testing is always 20 -30 points higher then nutrisense...

Listener Q&A: Debby - When doing whole body cryotherapy is it ok to be wearing a CGM in the chamber?

how often does the device collect data?

Listener Q&A: Alison - Is it possible to wear a CGM on another area of the body?

Listener Q&A: Maureen - it always takes about 1day or 2 to calibrate correctly and during that time I get low level alarms going off...

Listener Q&A: Jill - What is the optimal 24-hr average glucose?

Listener Q&A: Benoit - Assuming I wore one for 3 months, would that mean I can calculate my HbA1C (or get a good correlation)?

the insights tab

Listener Q&A: Nancy - I have a CGM device but I am finding it hard to interpret and make use of my readings.

Listener Q&A: Caroline - Is it more important to track insulin than blood glucose as I’ve heard on some podcasts?

Listener Q&A: MaryJane - In your opinion, what’s the greatest benefit to using a CGM? Besides big spikes or big drops in blood sugar what are other patterns of concern to look out for? 

Listener Q&A: Margaret - If blood glucose is shown to be relatively stable (no major spikes) with a CGM what is the next step to assess if weight loss is the goal?

Listener Q&A: Jill - I recently heard some discussion of the dawn phenomenon….

Listener Q&A: Xenia - What to do with the information?

Listener Q&A: Jackie - What is the initial cost of the CGM and continuing cost for supplies and monthly membership? 

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 341 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 341 and I'm Melanie Avalon. I am here today with a very special guest. I have been looking forward to this, friends, for so long. So something that we talk about all the time on this show, like, all the time, is CGMs also known as-- well, continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs, which are devices that you put on your body, and they give you a picture of your blood sugar levels measured through interstitial fluid, which I'm sure we'll talk about, essentially 24/7 for a two-week period when you're doing a program. And me and honestly all of the cohosts that we've had on this show, Gin, Cynthia, and now Vanessa, we are all huge fans of CGMs. We've worn them multiple times. And that's just because it's really one of the only ways to get an actual picture of how your food is literally affecting you in that moment, how your fasting is affecting you, your exercise. It's just so incredibly eye opening. 

And so we've partnered for quite a while now. My favorite brand in the continuous glucose monitor space to make them accessible to people like us, because historically, you needed to be diabetic and have a prescription from your doctor is a company called NutriSense. We love NutriSense. So they provide access to CGMs. You get the CGM, you get the CGM app, the NutriSense app. It helps you interpret your data, and it's just really an easy process, an eye-opening process. I am obsessed with it. So I knew we had to have the co-founder on this show. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice, actually. So I will put links to that in the show notes. But I have here now with me. And I also gathered a cacophony of listener questions from you guys. You had so many questions, so we're going to go through those. But I am here with Kara Collier. Again, like I said, the co-founder of NutriSense, and she is now the VP of Health at the company, and she is awesome. So, Kara, thank you so much for being here. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited to chat.

Melanie Avalon: I am too. I've been looking forward to this for so long, especially because, like I said, we haven't had a full discussion about CGMs on this show. When I asked for questions, I got really excited because I got so many. A few of them had never occurred to me, which was I'm really excited to ask those. So to start things off, your personal story, what led you to co-founding NutriSense? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. So I first tried a CGM probably about three years before founding NutriSense. So at this point, probably eight years ago kind of where I started, I'm a dietitian by trade and I started in a traditional clinical nutrition world. So I was working in hospitals with pretty sick patients, mostly ICUs. So I was seeing a lot of people come in with complications of diabetes, complications of uncontrolled heart disease, complications of uncontrolled kidney disease. What you see in the ICU is a lot of suffering, pain, time spent, expenses, all of this happening that you realize really didn't ever need to happen in the first place. So I was trying to make a difference in people's lives. I was trying to help them with lifestyle changes, with nutrition, with counseling and it was the wrong time and place to be really intervening in the way that I wanted to. 

So eventually I went to a different startup, but was really mulling on this problem that I felt like I was seeing in the clinical world. And at that point, I had worked with patients who wore CGMs, primarily type 1 diabetics and occasionally a type 2 diabetic. And I realized how powerful they were for that audience. But I started to get really curious about trying them, both on myself and others. So I got a hand on a couple, which, as you mentioned, was very hard to do at the time. It took me convincing some of my physician friends to get them. I realized even being really nerdy in the metabolic health and nutrition world and having learned a lot about the topic. When I wore one, I learned so much about myself that you just can't know without the data. That was my first moment where I was like, “Oh, wow, these are powerful tools and not just for managing your diabetes.” 

So then I started putting them on my friends, my family to see what their experiences were like, and I found it was powerful for almost any type of situation that person was in. And that's when I got really excited about the technology and I realized how difficult it was to get them. And then also the app that comes with the device normally is pretty useless. It basically just tells you your glucose value and it's meant for your physician to look at it and dose your insulin accordingly. So I realized for this to be useful for consumers, you needed a completely different app experience. So from there, I actually just stumbled upon through friends of friends, my two other co-founders, both of which come from a technical background and a finance background, and they were looking for somebody who had the nutrition subject matter expertise, and they had a very similar thesis for the business. We just totally meshed and got along really well. We had the same values for how we wanted to create a business, and we just started doing it and going for it, and then suddenly, we had customers and suddenly we had more customers and then we’re like, “Should we quit our day job?” So it really just took off. And that was a little over, that was about four and a half years ago now.

Melanie Avalon: I'm having to stop myself because I would love to have just a two-hour conversation about the entrepreneurial aspect of this, and product development, and creating the app, but I will not go down that route. Wow. So incredible. I'm just curious. The first time you got it from your doctor, we actually had a question talking with doctors about CGMs. So I'll just make a really quick two-part question. Arietta asked, she said, “My doctor said a CGM would just confuse me. How do I make an appeal to her?” My little random question is, when you did first get your CGM, did you have a practitioner that listened to you and was open to prescribing it, or how did you do that? And then what would you say to Arietta’s question about doctors just being a little bit skeptical about CGMs? 

Kara Collier: So for me, my situation was probably a little unusual and it might not be as helpful for everyone else. Since I worked in the healthcare setting, I had friends in the hospital system. So they weren't my doctor specifically, but they were willing to just give it to me as colleagues essentially. So if you have an in in the healthcare world, that's one route. But if you're trying to convince your doctor-- I get this question a lot and it's very difficult. This is part of the reason we created the company. So obviously, a small plug for NutriSense will take care of this problem for you, but if you really want to go through your doctor because you might be able to get a cheaper sensor that way, which I totally understand, I'd rather have everybody wearing it in some way than using NutriSense necessarily. One point to explain is that there's a lot of research and information out there now. So you can even use the blogs and the content on NutriSense's website, other websites, these podcasts to try to make sense of the data. That's part of what we try to do in our app for you. But if you aren't using our app, you will have to do a little bit of learning on your own. But many people are completely capable of doing that. 

But the other thing to help educate your physician is that awareness is really the first step to health. We don't know what we don't know and we need the right tools and information in order to understand if we're where we think we are. We can dig into the traditional glucose metrics, if you'd like, but they only tell us a little bit. So there's a lot of research out there showing how the first signs of glucose dysregulation or deviation typically happens in that post-meal period, so that postprandial glucose response. So our glucose spikes, how we respond to meals, the fluctuations throughout the day, what's called glycemic variability, which is those swings in our glucose. There's a lot of research to indicate that those two things which you can only understand if you're measuring it 24/7 through a CGM are much earlier warning signs of insulin resistance, metabolic dysfunction. And so if you can understand what's happening with those data points, you can make sure you're in really good metabolic health before you ever even get to deviations in the more traditional metrics. 

So from a preventative lens, it's really the route to go. It also really helps drive behavior change, which we can dig a lot more into. But data is powerful, especially real time data. So even just the benefit of something like a Step Tracker like we have our Apple Watch or our Garmins or our Oura Rings, these really help us stay accountable to the things that we might know already, which is maybe I should walk more or I should do some mindfulness practice. But having that data that comes back at you in real time helps you stay accountable. That's another powerful reason for the CGM alone is to really help you be able to make the behavior changes that you know you might need to do that you might struggle doing. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that so much. It's something that's so hard to communicate until you experience it. But the level of accountability that I think it can bring to people because once you finally see it in real life, see this graph of what you're doing and how it's affecting you, it makes it real to you. I think it makes your food choices and your lifestyle choices, real. [giggles] You understand what's happening.

Kara Collier: Exactly. It's so different when you have the data. Even then, when you aren't wearing a CGM anymore and you don't have the data in front of you, having seen it at some point in time really does still drive behavior change in the future. So you don't necessarily have to wear it forever to have that really powerful behavior change impact. So it's pretty incredible. And then of course, there's the aspect that we're all different. We have different unique responses to food, to activities, and we're not all the same exact person. And so there are some things that are just unique to me that nobody else is going to respond in that way. I don't know that information unless I see the data and I test it out. And so learning those type of just bio-individuality really helps you to be empowered to make decisions that are right for you specifically.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to I love what you just said about how having seen how you react to things, you remember that in the future even when you're not wearing a CGM. So what I often say is I really wish that everybody in the world could wear CGM, at least just once because like I said, it lasts two weeks. But then beyond that, I know with NutriSense, you guys have a really great subscription program, so people can do it longer. Anna or Anna, probably Anna, she wanted to know, “Is a two-week trial period long enough to get a picture of how your body responds to the foods you eat?” So that two weeks, what can people realistically get value wise from that? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. We recently changed our lowest option from that two-week to the one month, so you get two sensors. If you're a previous customer and you've had the two-week trial from us in the past and you just want one more sensor, we will do that happily. But if you're a brand-new customer and you've never been with us before, our lowest tier now is one month, so two sensors again. We primarily did that because we really feel like a month is the minimum amount of time to be really helpful. There are exceptions to this for the person who's really knowledgeable. So somebody who maybe lives and breathes these topics as their primary day job, you might be able to have two weeks and you get away with it and you learn most of what you need to learn. But for a lot of people a month is really helpful. You might not even wear them back to back. You might do the one month and have the two sensors and wear one and then wait a couple of weeks and then wear the other one. 

But we think having closer to that 30 days of data is that sweet spot for the minimum amount of information, because ideally what you want to do is at least, first, test your baseline information. So what are your normal day to day habits doing to your data? Because we want to know-- It's really interesting when people are like, “Oh, I want to try my favorite treat that I only have once a month.” That's fun. But what we really want to know is how is your daily routine affecting you? Because that's what's most impactful on your overall health. So we want people to not change anything. Then based on what you're learning, maybe you're seeing that there's one meal in particular in your regular routine that really is resulting in a high glucose spike. So then you might want to experiment with a couple of different variations of that meal until you land on something that's working really well for you, and then maybe trying some of the more fun things that you don't do necessarily every day. To really get that information and takeaway, I think two sensors is a sweet spot.

Melanie Avalon: Because there's a lot more questions, but could you briefly explain, because I mentioned this in the intro, so it's not actually measuring your blood. How is it working with measuring the interstitial fluid? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, good question. So the CGM is actually measuring, like you mentioned, what is called your interstitial fluid. This is part of the reason that the sensors are so painless and you really don't notice them. So to answer the question that I know will come to is, does it hurt? It really doesn't. You put the device on at home, so it's not something that you need to get inserted. It has a small needle for insertion. But what that needle is placing is a little tiny microfilament, that's flexible, no needle that stays just below the surface of the skin. And what that microfilament is then picking up on is that the glucose in your interstitial fluid. What that is is essentially the fluid in between your cells. So you're not even going to the depth of your blood vessels, which is why it's really shallow, really painless. And how the interstitial fluid works essentially is just like normal diffusion. So let's say you eat a gummy bear, and that gummy bear gets immediately digested into glucose because it's basically pure sugar. And then it's going to go into your blood glucose first, and then it's going to diffuse into that interstitial fluid. 

So if we're not eating anything, if our glucose levels are relatively slowly shifting, then blood glucose and interstitial values pretty much match exactly. But if you ate something, let's say you ate 50 gummy bears, and your glucose spiked really high really quickly, you will see that reflected in your interstitial fluid usually like 15 minutes to 30 minutes later. So there's that slight delay with these sharp changes in your glucose, but it is reflected in the same way. It just needs to be diffused into that space. 

Melanie Avalon: So actually, speaking to that, we had quite a few questions about comparing it to blood glucose and the accuracy. This was a really interesting question. So from Jill, she wanted to know about the accuracy, and she said, “She was shocked when she researched the allowable variance from a blood draw or a finger prick.” And then she said, “Do factors like inflammation significantly affect accuracy? Since interstitial fluid may be higher in someone with higher inflammation, I believe this is the reason they have not been studied in pregnancy.” Do you have thoughts on that? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, that's a great question. So just to address accuracy broadly, like she's mentioned, so these are FDA-approved medical devices. So there are two main manufacturers who create the CGMs, Dexcom and Libre, and both are FDA approved. But what the FDA does allow is essentially a 15% variation from what you might get at a lab draw 95% of the time is what FDA deems to be acceptable accuracy. But how this works, typically, is there's a difference between the precision and then the absolute value. So usually, if it is off within that 15%, let's say, it's at that high end of what's acceptable. So let's say your CGM readings are reading 15% higher than if you had the equivalent glucose value drawn from a blood value and that's different than a finger prick. I'm talking like a lab draw. 

Then what happens is it stays pretty consistently 15% higher though. So it's not going to be shifting constantly on the CGM readings. It's the absolute value might be off. So one thing that we do allow in our app is the ability to calibrate each sensor to get it closer to that true absolute value. But the thing that is nice, if you don't have a recent lab value to calibrate with is that those changes in glucose are very precise. And so it's still very useful to understand that my fasting glucose is resting 10 points higher than it was yesterday, what did I do differently? Or, my glucose shot up 80 points with that meal, what was in that meal that I need to change potentially? 

Then the source of the inaccuracy, that's an interesting question with pregnancy. The reason from my understanding from the manufacturers that it hasn't been necessarily approved with pregnancy is because there's such large fluid shifts that happen during pregnancy. So it's kind of a fluid balance thing rather than an inflammation thing. I haven't heard that or read that anywhere with the inflammation aspect. Most likely you're going to be having a similar level of inflammation throughout the body that's impacting both levels. But the accuracy issue is more related to like I guess, the enzymatic reaction that happens within the sensor itself. Sometimes it can be a little off, but again, it's that change in glucose and that precision that is really useful and stable. 

Melanie Avalon: You just said like, if an enzymatic reaction, why would it be so stable but off? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. It's very hard to find the answer to this. So I will say it is hard to find the answer. We've spoken with the manufacturers who make the devices. We have read all of their studies. What they have done though is they've done clinical tests that you need all of this data to get FDA approval. That's where we know that the precision is very good because what they do is they have people wear it and they do these blood draws over and over throughout the 14 days to make sure that it is more of the absolute value that is off rather than the variation between the values. So we do know that from the studies that have been done. But the reason why is hard to get a firm, clear answer. 

What they typically say is that it has to do with placement. What we have found anecdotally is that people who are really, really lean and have less body fat tend to have more variation from that baseline. And so it might just have to do with the placement and where that microfilament ends up sitting is my theory. That's what I meant about the enzymatic reaction that's happening on that little microfilament. If it happens to be placed a little strangely, it might be slightly more off than others. What is interesting for me is I have only had maybe one sensor out of 100 that I've ever needed to calibrate. So for some people, it seems to just always be spot on every single time. Whereas for some people it seems like it's like, “Oh, every time I need to adjust it by 10.” So it seems to almost be relatively consistent with people, which is another just purely anecdotal observation we've had. 

Melanie Avalon: I can share my experience because I don't know, I was just thinking how many I've done. I've probably done maybe like 15 or so rounds. I think I've had to calibrate probably three times or four times. Actually, the last time I did it, that was the only time where-- Because I did have the exact experience that you're saying right now, which is once you calibrate it-- Basically what I do is I get the CGM and then you wait-- It's 72 hours that you're supposed to wait for the calibration period. 

Kara Collier: Just that first 24 hours. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, just 24 hours. Okay. I thought it was longer. So 24 hours in the beginning where it might be off, which by the way, do you know why that is? 

Kara Collier: What is explained again from the manufacturers is it's self-calibrating during that time. I think a lot of it has to do with just potential damage that has been done with that puncturing. Like, some of that minor inflammation that happens with that needle during insertion and maybe even a little bit of bruising or a little bit of bleeding interferes with that at first until it clears out. 

Melanie Avalon: That was Peter Attia’s theory. I heard him saying that on a show and I was like, “I wonder if that’s--" Okay. That's exciting to hear that. Yeah, so basically what I do is I have that 24 hours where I'm not judging. I have, at home, a finger prick and a glucometer and I will check it against that. With the recommendations and maybe you can elaborate on this, but when you're checking it, you want to make sure that you're still and not eating and not moving around a lot. Basically, being in that state, like, Kara was saying earlier in the show, where the blood should mostly be matching the interstitial fluid anyways because there's not that time delay. 

Kara Collier: Right. You want to be stable.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So I make sure I'm in that state and I check it. I'll see if it's off, and then I'll do that a few times, typically, that next day and maybe even the next day if I'm a little bit suspicious. Because actually, before I continue on that train with the glucometers, because that's what I wonder, I'm like, “Well, how do I even know my glucometer is accurate?” And then Nisha, she said, “She was confused about the difference between her finger prick and her CGM.” She said, “Sometimes there is a 30-point difference within three minutes when I took 10 blood pricks as an experiment. I also read that the finger prick blood draw sugar can vary depending on the finger and the amount of blood, but I'm not certain.” So question there, if we are even comparing it to our glucometer at home, how do we know if our glucometer is accurate, and does the finger matter, and how do we figure that out? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. That's the biggest challenge with this is that the glucometers that you can buy over the counter, you can get online. They also have their own accuracy issues. So they are susceptible to the same accuracy guidelines. As she said, you could do an experiment where you can probably prick each of your fingers or same finger multiple times, and you're not going to get the same exact number every time. What I recommend is that people use their latest fasting blood glucose value that they got from a lab draw if it is recent. So again, if it's not recent and you do have a glucometer, you can use that as a general gauge, especially if you think it might be really off and adjust that, but just know that it's not a perfect measure either. 

So what we don't want people getting too obsessed with is pricking their finger 10 times every day for the whole 14 days and constantly readjusting it because that's just going to drive your stress levels up. And so getting it, adjusting it a little if you think it needs to be, and then really paying attention to those trends. And then I recommended-- a very, very minimum, people get labs every year as well. So at least at that annual basis, double checking what your most recent fasting glucose level was as a baseline for that information. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So to clarify about that, you're saying, if somebody has a CGM and they're not pricking their finger, they can look at the fasting levels from the CGM compared to a blood test they had a while ago for their fasting blood sugar levels? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. We recommend, assuming that what we'll ask our customers when we're talking them through this is, if they've had a fasting glucose level from a lab draw that's in the last six months, if they haven't had major lifestyle changes since, we'll just use that as a general baseline. If it's older than that or if in that six months you've made major lifestyle changes, you've lost a lot of weight, you've changed your dietary habits, then it's probably not that useful as a baseline. But for example, I just put a sensor on yesterday, and I got a lab draw done three weeks ago. So I'm just using that fasted glucose value from that lab draw is my source of truth to adjust if I need to adjust my CGM. But if you don't have that, you can do the finger prick, and just keeping in mind that we're using that as a general proxy and not as a gold standard. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Would people if they're doing that, would they probably--? Especially because a lot of our listeners are intermittent fasters, so they might have various eating and fasting windows. I'm assuming if they go that route, they would want to look-- Yeah, it should be on there. They would want to look at the time of the blood draw and probably compare it similarly to the fasted time on the CGM?

Kara Collier: Yeah. Just making sure, you should be fasted going into the lab draws, so making sure both times you're in a fasted state that it's a general same time of day. So typically, they'll want to do labs more towards the first half of the day because it's required to be fasting. So matching that is a good best practice. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. This is just random. I tend to go into labs. I'm always like the last appointment of the day, and I always get the same question. I can't tell you how many times. They'll be like, “Oh, we actually can't draw this lab because we have to be fasted.” I'm like, “I am fasted.” [laughs] 

Kara Collier: Yeah, that's happened to me too. Yeah. [laughs] They can't fathom it. 

Melanie Avalon: No, they'll just assume that I ate. I'm like, “No, it's fine. You can do it.” [giggles] So I'm curious. In your experience, because you said you've done it 100 times or so, the last time I did one-- I don't want to scare people away from them because, like I said, the majority of the time, they haven't needed any calibration, and when they did, it was off by 10 or maybe 20, and then it was fine. The last time I had one, I think are there some that are lemons? Basically, I adjusted it and it needed to be calibrated, for sure. So I calibrated it. Then I think it went back to being accurate without calibration. So then it was like way off. I gave up on it two thirds of the way through. I was like-- [giggles] So does that happen with people ever? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. What we see typically, and this is similar from what the manufacturer's data is as well is about 2% of sensors are just like lemons, like you said. And in those instance, if you reach out to us, we'll replace them for free, because we do know just like every once in a while, for whatever reason, bad sensor. Sometimes it'll just not read at all or sometimes it looks really wacky. Again, it tends to be about 2% of the sensors and we'll replace them happily. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. Yeah. I think for mine, in the beginning it was way high, so I had to really adjust it lower, but then I think it got back to normal. So then it said I was basically dying from hypoglycemia. So I was like, “I don't know what to do with this.” 

Kara Collier: Yeah. In those instances, we would replace that sensor for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, that's great to know. Linda wants to know, she says, “I have another two weeks with a second CGM waiting because I have a salt water pool and it says you can't go in salt. So I couldn't swim for two weeks, plus I'm going to the ocean. So now I will probably purchase in the fall or winter, not the summer.” So is that a concern, the salt water? 

Kara Collier: Typically, we recommend not being immersed in it for more than 30 minutes at a time as just a best practice. But what we have found is there's always people who are like, “No, I'm not going to follow that rule.” [giggles] When they cover it with the bandage that comes with it, most people are okay because we do have people who do like the open ocean swimming, open water swimming in some of the saltwater, and they'll do it for longer than 30 minutes. Nine times out of 10, the sensor is fine, but you are putting at a slightly higher risk of just getting water logged and malfunctioning. So the official recommendation is to not be submerged for more than 30 minutes at a time. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. And then this is one I think I asked you about before. I am still perplexed by this because it seems that-- Oh, although I had a theory about it, which I will ask you, but whole-body cryotherapy. Debbie wants to know, “When doing whole body cryotherapy, is it okay to be wearing a CGM in the chamber?” I know what I see when I wear it is that it spikes way high when I'm in the chamber, like way high. Then I get out, and then it progressively goes lower throughout the day. I was always wondering if it was just the cold freaking it out or if it was a massive dump of liver glycogen. But I'm guessing it's just the cold. What are your thoughts on that? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. Most likely it's just the cold. And so you can wear it in both-- any type of cold therapy, but also any type of heat therapy. So sauna, you can wear the sensors. It's not going to break it, but you might get that extreme response in the moment because there is just like a normal operating temperature for the sensors that probably when the manufacturers made this, they weren't expecting people to be in extreme temperatures. So in those instance, it might just have that higher response. What we know from research in cold therapy is that, usually, you're not having that huge glucose response in reality. Typically, actually, cold exposure will drop your glucose levels, which is usually what people see once they get out of the actual temperature exposure, and the sensor is back in normal temperatures, you'll start to see that glucose drop like you said you saw. 

But with sauna, actually, we do know that individuals have a higher glucose response in reality during the actual sauna exposure. So it's not just that the sensor is reacting to those high temperatures, but it's also that glucose tends to rise in that moment. But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. This usually has to do with the fact that it's like exercise. So your body is working harder, especially in a sauna, and that's causing the glucose to go up a little bit, and it's also a lot of to do with that fluid distribution. So part of it can be a little bit of acute dehydration that's happening. But just like exercise, when we see glucose rise during exercise, we see glucose values lower overall after the sauna and that long-term benefit of sauna use is lower glucose values overall. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. Yeah, the realization I had related to it, so the device itself, is it gathering information every five minutes that it's actually taking a reading? 

Kara Collier: Yes, every five minutes. Correct. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. The moment I had where I was like, “Oh, this is definitely the cold, not a moment is,” it would only happen because the session is three minutes. So sometimes the session-- that reading check would not happen during the cryotherapy. And in that case, I didn't see any spike on my readings. So that's when I was like, “Okay, so it definitely has to be definitely the cold since there's like no residual stuff going on there.” Just a comment before I forget on, whether or not it's painful. It's funny. So I have a lot of videos. People can check out my Instagram, a lot of videos of putting on CGMs and how to put them on. I think it's one of the things that is the biggest difference between how it looks like it's going to feel versus how it feels, like it looks very scary. 

Kara Collier: It's a little intimidating. Yeah, your first time you do it's a little intimidating. 

Melanie Avalon: Like, the needle looks really scary, but it's just so funny. I think it's funny because I have a video with my friend and I putting them on, and her reaction because you literally don't even feel it. So it's funny to see people's reactions about, because they're anticipating it being painful, but it's really not. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, they're wincing, and then it happens, and then they're like, “Oh.” Yeah, the reactions are great. 

Melanie Avalon: Also, speaking of the placement, so can you explain exactly where to put it? We got a lot of questions about that. So, Jill wanted to know, “Where to put it on her body?” Allison wanted to know, “Is it possible to wear a CGM on another area of the body?” She says she has lymphedema in both arms, and she wants to avoid potentially introducing an infection. And then Nancy said that she wears hers on her abdomen, so placement. 

Kara Collier: Yeah. Again, there's the two manufacturers. We are starting to integrate with both, but we primarily use Abbott Libre. And with the Libre, they have only clinically tested and approved for it to be on the back of the arm, so either arm. And that's just the placement that they have done all of their clinical studies on, all of their accuracy data is with that placement. So that is the only recommendation for the Libre, where the Dexcom has been clinically tested on both the back of the arm and the abdomen. So those are approved for both of those use cases. But again, not everybody listens to the official rules, and we have seen people put it all over. So we've seen people put on their abdomen, their thighs, their butts, they put it in different places, and it typically, 99% of the time works okay, but it is not an official recommendation on our end. So if the sensor malfunctions and it's in a weird spot, that's a risk you take. But the official recommendation for the standard sensor we use the Libre is the back of the arm. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it the fattiest part of the back of your arm? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, that's what we recommend. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: I would be interested putting it on-- If you're putting on a much more fattier area, I just find it interesting that do people see a bigger lag time? 

Kara Collier: Typically, people see that it looks about the same. Our sample size of people putting it in strange places is much smaller than but with the arms, so it's a little bit hard to tell. But we haven't seen anything that's been a noticeable difference for those who are deviating there. 

Melanie Avalon: So right now, are you using both versions or just the FreeStyle? 

Kara Collier: Not yet, but we are currently working on the integration to be able to offer both Dexcom and Libre. And then one thing that will be coming soon is that we'll be having a membership plan. So if you have your own sensors, you can just have a onetime annual fee to use our app, and access to our dietitians, and bring your own sensor. And so that is part of the reason we want to be integrated with all the different sensors out there is to give people that flexibility. In case maybe you did get the sensors yourself, but you want the better app experience and what comes with the sensor. We're working towards providing those various flexible options for people to use it.

Melanie Avalon: My hesitancy with the non-FreeStyle Libre options, I don't know when they introduced this, but I'm concerned about EMF exposure. And so the Bluetooth aspect, when was that a nonnegotiable with a Dexcom? Which version do you know? 

Kara Collier: I can't remember when they switched, but it's been a while. It's been at least two generations of Dexcom sensors are Bluetooth. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So I wish they would have an airplane mode. I'm just like putting it out there. I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, that's why I've been definitely preferentially at present choosing the FreeStyle Libre. I'm waiting with bated breath. I'm like, “Don't switch to Bluetooth with mandatory only Bluetooth.”

Kara Collier: Yeah. I will say that the version of Libre that has been released in Europe but not the US is a Bluetooth version. Yeah, it seems to be the trend, but we'll see what happens in the US. It's much different ground-- playing field here. 

Melanie Avalon: So this will speak to how much I believe in CGMs. All of that said, because listeners know how intense I am about EMFs. I'm actually launching an EMF blocking product line. It's so important to me. That said, if the only option was Bluetooth only, I still think everybody should do at least one round of it. So friends, that is how important. That is how amazing and life changing I think CGMs are. So one other question about numbers that might be a little bit off when you're sleeping. I know people sometimes experience issues. So Maureen said that, “She gets low level alarms going off in the middle of the night when she knows her glucose is not dangerously low.” Is there anything she can do about that is? 

Kara Collier: Yes. Well, first, I will say the alarms are, what I would consider a very annoying feature associated only with Bluetooth and Dexcom. So there will be no annoying alarms with the Libre's and the NutriSense experience. But what does happen sometimes is that if people are putting a lot of pressure while they're sleeping on the sensor, it can cause your glucose levels from the CGM readings to artificially dip really low. And the reason you'll know if this is real or not is if it's a really sharp dip, let's say your glucose levels were floating pretty stably at 70 and then you see this sharp dip for just like one reading or two readings to 30 and then back up to 70, it was probably you just laying on it funky. 

Where some people really, truly do have nocturnal hypoglycemia, but the pattern looks a lot different. You'll see a more smooth dip that stays a little longer and almost always, 9 times out of 10, if somebody's having nocturnal hypoglycemia, it's associated with symptoms. So during that hypoglycemic moment, they are sweating, they're waking up, they're having that hypoglycemic symptom. Sometimes people will have nightmares, typically. If it's that just like sharp, really quick dip and you didn't wake up at all, you slept like a baby, it's probably just sensor pressure that's causing that dip. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. I definitely experience the pressure experience with mine.

Kara Collier: We tend to see that, really lean people see that more. So that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, got you. Side sleeper here. I'm actually doing an episode in the next few months with a guest who hopefully will convince me to start sleeping on my back. 

Kara Collier: It's so hard though. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: No, I still have his Neck-- I think it's called like the Neck Nest or something. It's a pillow to make you sleep straight. I haven't even started doing it yet, but we'll see. Okay. So as far as actually interpreting the data, we got a lot of really, really great questions about this. Where to start? So just a really simple question. Jill wants to know, “What is the optimal 24-hour average glucose?” 

Kara Collier: Great question. So with average glucose, we recommend as an optimal to be at least at a minimum, below 105 mg/dL. So that's really that upper threshold. We really want people to below it, which equates, if you're thinking about things in terms of a hemoglobin A1c which is that blood metric that captures your average glucose over the last three months, that is a 5.3%. Whereas normal for A1c levels for the official recommendations out there in the medical world are anything under 5.7, which would equal to 117 average glucose, which we believe is too high. So really keeping it below 105. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. I said earlier, there are some questions that never occurred to me. I love this question. This has never occurred to me to ask. So this is from Benoit or Benoit. Hope I'm saying that correctly. He says, “Assuming I wore one for three months, would that mean I can calculate my HbA1c or get a good correlation?” 

Kara Collier: It does. Yes. That's a great question. We do encourage people to do that because A1c isn't actually that perfect all the time. I don't know how much you've discussed this before, but there are a lot of potential errors with the A1c values. I think the latest statistic was that it's about a 40% to 60% sensitivity and 80% specificity with the A1c, which means, it misses a lot of positives that you might identify in like an oral glucose tolerance test or the CGM, and it misses some false negatives too. So, long story short, to say that the A1c typically has flaws because it is based on the assumption that your red blood cells live for 90 days, because it is making the calculation based off of how much glucose is stuck to that hemoglobin molecule for the past 90 days. 

But a lot of people have different red blood cell turnover rates. So sometimes they live longer and sometimes they live shorter. And that might skew that A1c percentage either a little high or a little low. If your A1c is 10%, your glucose is high, hard stop. But if your A1c is 5.5% and you calculated it with the CGM as more closer to 5.4%, that deviation could actually be meaningful to you and probably closer to accurate on the CGM assuming that you are checking in on the calibration there. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. So basically, especially, if you've had historically, a lot of HbA1c tests, this would be a great way to know if-- Again, I understand that factors possibly could change, but it could be a good way to know when you get your future HbA1c data if it tends to skew one way or the other. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about fructosamine? 

Kara Collier: Fructosamine is interesting. So it doesn't have as many flaws as the A1c. Essentially, it's capturing your glucose over the last two weeks as opposed to the three months. It's more reliable if your red blood cell turnover is abnormal outside of that 90 days. So in situations like pregnancy, if we're concerned about glucose levels, they'll more likely to use fructosamine rather than A1c, because red blood cell turnover is all kinds of crazy when you're pregnant. So it's more reliable in that sense. So if you have something like a known issue with your red blood cells, like, there are some genetic conditions where your turnover rate is different, then fructosamine is going to be a much more useful metric for you. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Awesome. Maybe now I'll share my HbA1c CGM story. I've shared it quite a few times on this show. It's just so shocking to me, this experience I had, and it further drove home my obsession with CGMs. So historically, I've worn a CGM a lot. The diet I've been following for quite a while now is intermittent fasting. I do one meal a day. And at night, I eat huge amounts of lean protein, lots of fruit, cucumbers. So it's high protein, it's low fat, and that I don't add any fat. It's just lean protein and then tons of fruit. So a pretty big carb load. And so whenever I've worn CGMs in the past, I am always really curious to monitor that spike from that massive fruit intake. I'm usually always good. It doesn't normally go above-- Well, it depends. In the past, it would go up to like 130-ish a little or higher, sometimes even 140. But then with some lifestyle changes, like taking my berberine supplement that I make, it actually was going-- it wouldn't really go above 120. 

Point being also historically, my HbA1c has been usually around 5. Yeah, usually around 5. So I made one change to my eating pattern. I made that change for about a month and I intuitively felt like it was probably a problem. But I wasn't wearing a CGM and I was like, “It's fine. It's all good.” And then I went and got my blood tests and my HbA1c had gone up to 5.8 in a month. I freaked out. I was like, [giggles] “What is happening?”

Kara Collier: It's a big jump. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So I immediately stopped what I was doing, which what I had been doing, and I find this so interesting. I had not changed the amount of food I'd eaten. I was eating the same foods, but I had started heating my fruit because normally I eat the fruit frozen and I realized that when you heat it, it made it taste like dessert, like, pie. So I was just heating the fruit. That's the only change. Same amount of fruit. And so I stopped doing that completely, went cold turkey, went back-- no pun intended, because I literally started eating it frozen again and started wearing a CGM. A month later, it was down to 4.9 again. People keep asking, “Have you tested the heated fruit with the CGM?” So I need to. Because basically, what happened was I was so freaked out by that, I immediately put on a CGM and I immediately stopped cooking the fruit. And so I was too scared to cook the fruit at at all so do it-- Now [laughs] that we're back to normal, I need to do a round with a CGM and just have one night. I also don't want to bring back that habit though, because [laughs] I don't think I will. It's been so eye opening. So I don't know, just stories like that. 

Kara Collier: That's fascinating. I have a similar-- Well, not as similar as in-- it's different, but I had my A1c creep up, but my diet was exactly the same, and I put a CGM on, and my average glucose was higher. I was like, “Oh, the data is right. What is going on?” Tested this, got it back down. But what I realized is so I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and it gets nice and toasty here in the summer. It gets really hot. And so in the summer, I stopped going on walks throughout the day pretty much because you're melt when you go outside. I was still going to the gym, I was still doing intense workouts, but I wasn't moving at all in between my step count, had basically plummeted to nothing and it caused my average glucose to creep up a little bit and my A1c to creep up a little bit. I just wasn't really getting back down into those normal levels. It was just a lot more sedentary throughout the day. Baking that back in, finding ways to move when it was still hot, but just being more mindful and intentional about finding ways to move if I wasn't going outside brought it back down into normal, but very interesting too. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that so much. Yeah, it's like you're like a detective, his magnifying glass. It really helps you find what's going on. I'm curious with the app. Okay. Because for friends, the app has so much data and information in it. Does it have anything making comparisons for the history of your different sensors that you've done as far as how it correlates to time of year? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. So we have an insights tab where you have all of your nerdy analytics and statistics all about your glucose data. So that's going to show your average, that's going to show your peak, it's going to show your glycemic variability. And then you can also compare it to previous time ranges. So you could look at what-- If you just finished 14 days, and let's say the first seven days, you did your normal routine, and the second seven days, you switched things up, you could compare the current seven days to the previous seven days, or you could compare the current month to a previous month. And right now, what we just have is set where it's like the last three months as compared to the three months before that. But what we're working on that will be coming soon is more flexible comparison ranges where you could pick like this exact date range compared to this exact date range. So that will be coming soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. If I were to theorize or hypothesize about mine, I would think that mine is consistently lower in the winter because of the cold exposure. Have you seen any trends with people, or with NutriSense with the data in the app about weather? Yeah, weather. 

Kara Collier: Yeah. We tend to see higher values in the summer for multiple reasons. I think one is hydration tends to be more of an issue in the summer. The other is that people tend to eat higher carbohydrate in the summer than the winter. You've got all the fruit is in season, which is great. I'm not anti-fruit. It sounds like you're not either. But it can be easy to get carried away sometimes, especially if you're not mindful about set meal times. So people, I think, tend to eat a little differently in the summer. Then yeah, the hydration thing, so on average. But at the same time, we do see that. The highest glucose values tend to be around the holidays, which tend to be more stacked in the winter. So don't let the holidays deviate you from your goals. 

Melanie Avalon: I believe that. I've also been very impressed with the app, just, again, how much data there is and the features with those cryo spikes. Once I realized that I was fairly certain they were not real [giggles] that they were just from it being cold, I asked in the app how to get rid of them. Basically, you can go in and you can actually remove a data point. So that was pretty helpful. So we got quite a few questions because I think people are just a little bit overwhelmed by the idea of interpreting all this data. So I'll read a few of the questions. Marla says, “If I'm having to pay out of pocket, what is the best as far as affordable and easy to understand? I'm worried I'll pay for it and have no idea what all of the information means or how to use the data to help myself?” Nancy said, “I have a CGM, but I'm finding it hard to interpret and make use of my readings. Where can I go for support? Are there Facebook groups or functional medicine professionals who can make sense of patterns?” 

Okay. So people who are overwhelmed about-- Actually, I'll read this one. And then also Nancy said, same Nancy, she said that, “She's not been able to discover any patterns or behaviors impacting her glucose readings.” As a low carb eater, she says that, “Her swings have nothing to do with food, but maybe it's exercise, sleep, stress, or other inflammation or illness.” So people who are overwhelmed by the idea of interpreting this data, how can NutriSense help them? 

Kara Collier: Sure. So I'll talk at a high level of how to think about interpreting your data and then specifically what we do at NutriSense to help with that, because maybe you have a sensor and you're not going to use NutriSense. Again, I want you to make the most of the CGM data whether you're using NutriSense or not, because as we both believe it's so powerful. So if you're just looking at the data, you have no idea what to make sense of. I would really think about it in three categories. One is, what is my glucose doing in the fasted state? We really want our glucose levels to below 90 when we're fasted. Ideally closer to that in the 70s, 80s. It's okay to be in the 60s or even lower if you're not having any hypoglycemic events. So many people who are really low carb or doing a lot of fasting and entering ketogenesis will be in those lower values.

So one thing to look at is what's happening when you're fasted. A little bit of fluctuation during that fasted state is totally normal, but you will probably see deviations from day to day and you want to look at that. So let's say, overnight, your glucose values were in the 70s today, but the night before they were 110. So looking at what did I do differently that day versus this day. The second thing you want to look at, are those average glucose values, as we mentioned, really keeping them below 105? You might have good fasted glucose values and never be spiking too high, but your average might be always a little too high, what's happening overall that 24-hour view. 

Then the third component you really want to drill into is what's happening when you eat or when is your glucose spiking. And so for a nondiabetic, we really want to keep glucose below 140 as that upper threshold. We want our bodies to be able to recover from a glucose spike and come back down to pre-meal glucose values within usually three hours or so of eating. If you're doing an eating style like yours, where you're eating one meal a day and it's a much higher volume of food, sometimes it might take maybe closer to four hours, and that would be expected because it's more food, but it's going to be counterbalanced by the point that the rest of the day is very, very low and you're not having those peaks and values throughout the day. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. You answered my question. I was going to ask that. [giggles] 

Kara Collier: [giggles] Yeah. And so those are really what to drill into if you're not sure. And then with the NutriSense app specifically, there're two types of people. There's the person who's like, “I want to know if this is good or bad. Am I okay?” And then there's the other person that's downloading their data, and doing Excel models, and logarithm, mathematic equations to know every deviation. They're really nerdy data people. And so if you really just want to get a general idea, we give you a daily glucose score that takes all of the most important components and scores your day on a 1 to 10 scale, so that you can get a really quick at a glance idea of how your glucose values looked that day. We do the same with meals. So we give meal scores. So if you log a meal in the app, you'll also get a score in that two-hour window after you've eaten of how your glucose response was to the meal. Then, as I mentioned, we have a more detailed view of all of the analytics on a separate tab where you can see the trends, you can see-- it'll tell you that your peak glucose is trending 10% higher this week than last week, it can help you drill down. 

The final thing that we do at NutriSense is we also provide you access to a dietitian. This is a dietitian who has seen a lot of other glucose, data who is well versed in all of the various dietary and lifestyle strategies to help support good glucose values. If you have any questions, you're like, “Why is my glucose doing this? What does this mean?” Those are perfect questions to send over to our dietitians. They're there for as much or as little support as you might like. Some people message their dietitian all day, every day, and some people use them very minimally. So they're there to help you navigate, both interpreting the data and also then creating ideas on how to improve the data or what to do differently, creating goals, holding yourself accountable, so to speak. 

Melanie Avalon: I love it so much. Yeah, I've been personally highly impressed with the dialogue with the dietitians. I personally don't use it as much. I more just go on my own and interpret it. But I've had a lot of friends use it and have told me that their favorite part of the app was that access, like, being able to talk to somebody almost in real time. You can log into the app and chat, and they help you ascertain what's going on and how you might make changes to address it. Do you have thoughts--? This is just my question. I think I asked you this on the other show. But some people doing low-carb diets will have higher resting blood sugar levels. Actually, I'm having Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on the show pretty soon. And in her new book called Forever Strong, she actually talks about this, how she typically sees higher blood sugar levels in people on lower carb diets. But she doesn't think it's an issue. What are your thoughts on that? Does the body know or care if the blood sugar is coming from food versus gluconeogenesis in the liver? 

Kara Collier: Yeah, it's a great question. So it is a phenomenon that we do see typically when people are following very low-carbohydrate diet for an extended period of time. So we usually don't start to see this happen unless someone's been doing it for at least a year. And really what's happening here is adaptation. The body is realizing that it's not getting a lot of glucose from food, so it raises glucose levels a little bit endogenously on its own to make sure that some of these more glucose sensitive organs have that steady stream of glucose available. So usually, what we'll see is that fasted glucose values are a little bit higher. Sometimes they might even be in the high 90s, close to 100, but their glucose levels are really stable throughout the day. There's basically no variability, no ups and down, no spikes. 

And so for me, there's very little research out there to actually pinpoint whether this is a good or a bad thing. But my interpretation of this is that it's most likely perfectly fine, but the things that you would want to double check is, first, to make sure that if you get a fasted insulin level that it is also low. Because for this, we would expect insulin to be low. If it's high, then that means you have an over availability of energy if insulin is high and glucose is high. So insulin should be low in this instance. We still want to make sure that your average glucose values aren't creeping up above that 105 range. So if you're starting to see average glucose values at 110, 115, that's when I start to get a little bit concerned that maybe it's too high, because at that point, you still are having a lot of glucose in circulation that's going to lead to higher glycation events, and that can potentially have negative downstream effects. I have very, very rarely seen that average glucose gets that high in that instance though. So those would be the two kind of parameters I would make sure are still okay. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Is insulin also an interstitial fluid? Like, is there the potential of an insulin monitor, continuous insulin monitor? 

Kara Collier: There're talks that maybe one day, it'll be possible. It's much more complicated because even the lab draw to get-- We don't even have a finger prick insulin because it's a lot different to measure it than glucose is. Glucose is a much more simple metabolite where insulin is a hormone. I have heard that it's possible and it might one day happen, but I would say it's not in the very near future at least.

Melanie Avalon: I got really excited. I didn't realize that there was an HbA1c, like, blood glucometer that you could do at home.

Kara Collier: Which is really interesting. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners. I had James Clement on my other show. He wrote a book called The Switch. I totally forgot about this. There was one time where I got some lab work back and my HbA1c was high a little bit, and I was telling him about it, and he sent me one in the mail. I was so happy. I had no idea that they existed. I pulled it out when I had that 5.8. It was a little bit sad, but we fixed it. So yeah. Actually, Caroline wanted to know, “Is it more important to track insulin than blood glucose as I've heard on some podcasts?”

Kara Collier: I think insulin is incredibly valuable. If a day comes where we get the 24/7 insulin view, it's going to be a game changer. But right now, what's mostly practical at this point in time is to be able to get a fasted insulin level, which I really do recommend people do, just to check that that's good. If you are doing the CGM and your glucose readings are in good place, I'm going to put money on the fact that your fasted insulin levels are also good. But what is really useful is that postprandial or 24/7 view of insulin. But it's not really practical to do that for most people at this point in time because you would need to convince somebody to--

Every once in a while in very more expensive concierge medical clinics, they'll do the oral glucose tolerance test with both glucose and insulin. So for that, you drink a bunch of sugar and you sit there for two hours or three hours, and they draw your blood at every 20 minutes, 30 minutes. That's pretty interesting. But again, that's not practical for most people. So at this point, I would say our best combination is to do that fasted insulin once a year with your regular lab panel and do the CGM every once in a while.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, speaking of postprandial, so earlier, you were saying the two main things to look for would be swings and then that postprandial blood sugar spike after your meal. Mary Jane wanted to know, “Besides big spikes or big drops in blood sugar, what are other patterns of concern to look out for?”

Kara Collier: Of course, the big drops and the big spikes. The other is if you see a really slow, gradual increase in your glucose and it takes a really long time for it to come back down. So we'll typically see this type of pattern in either individuals who are insulin resistant or if you could be metabolically healthy and you have this pattern to something that's really high fat, really high carb. So I'm talking like cheeseburger with French fries and a milkshake. That kind of meal, even in a metabolically healthy person, is going to have your glucose rise really slowly. You're probably not going to see a sharp increase because there's so much fat that's slowing the digestion down. So three hours later you might see the glucose peak and then you might not see it come back down for eight hours. That even if you don't ever reach 140, which you probably won't. A lot of people look at that and they're like, “Oh, maybe that meal wasn't so bad because my glucose never went above 120.” But if you see the curve, it took eight hours for your body to really process all of that and you were probably hungry three hours later though. So then sometimes people are eating again while they're still coming back down.

So a slow return back to baseline is also something you want to look at. That big dip, the reactive hypoglycemia is another thing. And then just those big swings. Even if you're never reaching 130, 140, if you're having a lot of that variability, so that up and down momentum, that's a pattern we want to monitor. There's actually research to show that higher glycemic variability creates more oxidative stress and inflammation than sustained stable high glucose levels, which is really interesting. Yeah. So those big swings are potentially worse than if your glucose was just high but stable. So very interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Is that with the same area under the curve, total blood glucose between those two situations?

Kara Collier: Yeah. So between the two, you could assume that they're having potentially the same average glucose, but one is high and flat and then one has lows and highs, but is up and down. That up and down, even if it's the same average glucose is a lot more detrimental to our health.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's really interesting. Margaret wants to know, speaking of a stable blood sugar level, she says, “If my blood glucose is shown to be relatively stable with no major spikes with the CGM, what is the next step to assess if weight loss is the goal?” So where do we go from there, if it is stable? 

Kara Collier: Yeah. If it is stable, that's great. We also want to make sure it's in that optimal fasted range. So for some people, maybe it's stable, but it's resting at 110 or so. So you really want to look at what it looks like in that fasted state and assess that. And then if all of that looks good, then there might be other things at play outside of glucose that might be hindering your weight loss. So that's where it's important to know that glucose is really insightful. That was a point I was going to make when we were talking about interpreting the glucose values of-- You said that somebody said their diet never causes their spike, but sometimes it's stress or something else. The really useful thing about glucose is not only does it fluctuate in response to our diet, but it also fluctuates in response to our level of activity. In my example, my glucose was creeping up because I was becoming more sedentary, but it also responds to stress, both psychological stress, but also physical stressors like being sick or being in a high pollution area, things that cause our body to be put in that stress state. And then it also responds to our sleep quality and quantity. So it gives us this good overall view of our health and where to pinpoint. But at the end of the day, it's not the only metric that matters. 

So sometimes we can get glucose in a really good spot, and maybe we still need to address other things that aren't reflected in your glucose values to help take weight loss to the next level. And of course, that might end up being really personalized depending on the person. But I would say, majority of the time, if getting your glucose values to a good place will really accelerate weight loss for most people because it helps to unlock some of that more fat burning state, but it also, again, helps people be consistent with the habits that they want to do. It holds people accountable more and we know when we're consistent and we're doing the things that we know work for us, that's when we really start to see results. So that tends to be one of the biggest benefits for long-term weight loss and keeping the weight off is that accountability element.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more because I especially get asked all the time. I'll have a lot of new listeners to, both this show and my other show, and everything. There're so many like ways to go when you finally fall into this health world. I actually got a message on Instagram, a DM, yesterday, I think, and she said that she just found me and she found all my stuff and where to start. Then she actually said in the message, she said, “Would a CGM be the best place to start?” I was like, “Actually, yeah. That's one of the best ways,” because you just immediately can see-- 

Kara Collier: You're going to get that view into the most important element. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Like you said, it's not just food. It's so many other things beyond that. Okay. Two other really quick questions about the data specifically. So Jill said that-- This is interesting. She said, “She heard some discussion of the dawn phenomenon and she heard that it's like a report card of yesterday's activity. How true is this?” And then she says, “CGMs are such a great way to see the detailed data.” Have you heard that before? 

Kara Collier: I haven't. I would say that overnight glucose values and those morning fasted glucose values are indeed a report card for the day before, but I would separate that from the dawn phenomenon. So the dawn phenomenon is a very natural response our body has, where we tend to have a little bit of a glucose spike. I wouldn't even call it a spike, a glucose rise when we wake up. I describe it as our body's natural alarm clock. You wake up and you have a surge of hormones that help wake you up, get you going for the day. And typically, that comes with a little release of glucose value or glucose levels, and then usually it comes right back down. So for a normal person, this might be a rise of 10-ish points. And then within an hour, it's back down to baseline values. This is really normal. 

What you'll see with a diabetic is that because their body is no longer insulin sensitive, they have the same dawn phenomenon response, except their glucose rises maybe 50 points and it stays high. It never goes back down. So this phenomenon was really created in response to looking at diabetics glucose values because this is a problem for them. They have really high morning glucose values despite doing nothing differently, basically. But in healthy people, we see a really minor one and it's not a big deal. But when you're looking at your fasted glucose values and your overnight glucose values, really what it's typically reflecting is what you did the day before. So if you had maybe a different meal than normal, maybe you had like a dessert with your dinner the night before and you don't normally do that, you'll probably see that reflected in those morning values the next day. Let's say, you had a couple more glasses of alcohol than you normally do. You'll probably see that the next day. 

The other main reason that we might see fasted glucose levels drive up, well, also sleep quality. So I guess, that's reflected from the previous day. But another big one is just stress levels. So if we're feeling like nothing has changed in our routine but our fasted glucose levels are creeping up, it's typically stress, because that surge of cortisol and that stress response is telling your liver to dump more glucose. And so we see those glucose values rise despite no change in activity levels or our dietary levels, then we can usually pinpoint that to stress. 

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Yeah. We hear the word stress and it can seem very vague. Of course, everybody's stressed, but it literally can have this hormonal effect that [giggles] is raising our levels. So as far as seeing the spikes, so Xena says, “What to do with the information? Does that mean cut the food out completely if it spikes?” 

Kara Collier: Great question, because the answer is no, not always, especially, if it's like a nutrient dense, healthy food. So let's say let's take the example of-- Your example is great. Let's say that you're eating more like cooked fruit and you're having a big glucose spike and you're like, “What should I do with this?” Again, you can troubleshoot this yourself. But this would be a great question if you are working at NutriSense to ask your dietitian, and we'll experiment with that. So maybe the suggestion might be to try it in its whole form, which happens a lot. So an example might be somebody who's drinking a smoothie version of that fruit or they're juicing their fruit. So then we might recommend to just eat the whole fruit and see how that goes. 

Another really useful tip is typically to make sure you've eaten protein and some fiber. But typically, protein is the best in this situation to eat some protein first and then the fruit, and you'll likely see your glucose response improve. Another strategy is to make sure you're getting movement in to help mitigate some of that response. So those are all helpful things to try if it's a food that we believe is healthy, nutrient dense, and also a food that you really enjoy. So if you're like, “No, this is my favorite food ever. I don't want to get rid of it.” Usually, we can find a way to make it work. But if it's something like, let's say you had a candy bar and you had a glucose spike, we could probably mitigate it a little bit, but it's also not good for you, not nutrient dense, not adding any value. So most likely, yes, we would like to just remove that from that routine. But for a lot of things, there is actually quite a bit we can do. 

Melanie Avalon: Going back to something you were saying or we were both talking about earlier about valuable information in the moment, but then also how you remember it, I still-- Because I think there's been one time when I was wearing a CGM when I ate really processed food. It was still paleo, but it was still gluten free and all the things, but it had a lot of natural sugar in it. I don't know why. I think I had like a random craving for cereal. And so I got one of those gluten free cereal things and I ate a lot of it. It spiked so high on my CGM, and that haunts me to this day. [giggles] I'm like, “I know now, like, what that's actually doing to me.” Maybe there's a time and place where I'll be in a situation, and it's my birthday, and the cost benefit of life, like, it's worth it in that moment. I think you can do that and you can still have the agency and the knowledge. I think it's just about taking responsibility for yourself and knowing what's valuable. 

Kara Collier: Yeah. Mindful of those tradeoffs. When you do know that information, you're geared with it, then you can make the really intentional decisions. It's not just like, “Oh, I'm just eating this because it's in front of me.” A lot of times, we'll have people who work in offices where there's always some sort of treat for somebody's birthday. There's cupcakes, there's donuts, there's whatever. When before maybe you would mindlessly have one, now it's like, “I know what that does and I'm only going to do it if it's really, truly worth it.” So it's like making sure it's worth it, because life is worth living and we don't have to be perfect all of the time. But I think it's about being geared with the information and then really weighing the pros and cons and making a decision that feels right for you. 

Melanie Avalon: I cannot agree more. None of the questions today, I don't think mentioned it, but people have said before that they're hesitant to get one because they just don't want to know. Basically, I just find it so eye opening and empowering, so that you can really make the decisions the majority of the time that will best suit your health and then have those moments where if you do choose to do something that you know might not look the best on your CGM, at least you're aware and it's in the context of the rest of the time when you can be taking more agency. So as far as getting a CGM, we did have questions about getting one and the price.

So Wendy wanted to know, “Why are they so expensive and why would you need one if you have no need for one?” Although I think we've talked a lot about that second part. Joy wants to know, “When will they become more affordable?” Jackie wants to know, “What is the initial cost of the CGM and the continuing cost for supplies and the membership? Is it worth it if you're not diabetic and at a normal BMI. Could it be a benefit for a healthy senior citizen? How does the NutriSense program work as far as people getting a CGM, and the affordability, and the pricing and the access? How does that all work?” We do have a code for listeners that we can share as well. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of just how it works, you would sign up on our website, and you fill out a quick health questionnaire and you pick which plan you want to do, so I'll walk through that. But then you don't have to do anything else. So we take care of all of the getting the devices, shipping them to your doors. Based off of the subscription you choose, they would come to each month, and then you have lifetime access to the app and your data. So you put the sensors on at home, you use the app, and then you chat with the dietitian through the app as well, and then you don't have to do anything. And our options, we have that month to month, no commitment, like I mentioned. So you could do just one month. That's the shortest time period. And we have all the way up to a 12-month commitment. Month to month is the most expensive. It's $350. And then the 12-month is the cheapest and it's $199 a month. And then we have plans that vary in between. 

Why it's so expensive? We would also love for it to be cheaper. My goal as well is to have every single person have them at least be able to use it at least once and get that data. But the hardware right now is still just costly. The devices themselves are just more expensive, but they have already trended down in cost since they've been available over the last 10 years or so. So 10 years ago, they were hundreds of dollars apiece, and now they're significantly less than that. So we do anticipate that with more demand, they'll continue to drive down prices. We also anticipate that each sensor will continue to be able to last longer, which helps as well. They used to only last-- the very first version of these sensors only lasted three days, and now they last 14 days. So they will get cheaper, they'll last longer, they'll be smaller, and they'll just continue to get better over time, and we'll be able to drive down those prices. We will be rolling out within the next few months, actually, the kind of membership bring your own sensor option. So this will be a onetime fee. And then if you have sensors of your own, you can use our app and access all of that information as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And for listeners, they can actually go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, and that will get you $30 off as well. So we are super, super grateful for that. Well, this has been so amazing. I cannot thank you enough, Kara, for everything that you are doing with this company and making this accessible to people. I'll just share one last quick anecdote. I had my own experience. Something I really love testing on the CGM was I have my AvalonX supplement line, and I was historically taking berberine for blood sugar control. I don't want to say so much control as, I guess, blood sugar optimization. 

In any case, I honestly thought when I made my version that I wouldn't see any difference, but when I did, I made my own version of it and I saw massive changes on my CGM as far as the effect that it had on my postprandial spike. That was really exciting. And then I heard that from people as well. That's something that honestly, I just never could know if I didn't have the CGM. So it's just been, for me, personally so eye opening in so many ways with that, with my daily diet, with the HbA1c issue, with so many things. I hear testimonials from people all the time. And so, like I said, I cannot recommend enough that people get one of these. I can't thank you enough for making it so, so accessible and so easy to interpret and understand. It's just awesome. You're changing the world literally. So thank you so much for all that you're doing. 

Kara Collier: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate your support. Yeah, our goal is really just to help people take control of their health, and learn this information, and really just better themselves, which ends up bettering everyone else as well. So I'm going to have to check out your supplement as well. I'd be super curious to try it. Sounds awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I will send it to you, most definitely. 

Kara Collier: That would be great. That'd be so fun. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting because I had that experience and then so many people have told me that as well, they would check it on CGMs. I was like, “Ah, this is fabulous.” If you're open to it, I'd love to have you back more regularly because this is just so important and wonderful and I can't wait to air this. I'm so excited. Okay, well, thank you so much for your time, Kara, and I will talk to you very soon. 

Kara Collier: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Sep 03

Episode 333: Tone Device Gen 2, Measuring Breath Ketones, Ketosis, Fat Loss, Muscle Sparing, Protein Recipes, The Mandela Effect, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get 1 month of free nutritionist support.

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get  2 Grass-Fed Filet Mignons And 2 Wild-Caught Lobster Tails For FREE In Your First Box Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

TONE DEVICE: Get on the exclusive VIP list to be notified when the 2nd Generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Niki - Could or should I increase my protein intake on the other days?

Listener Q&A: Nancy - How can I possibly get 120 grams of protein daily when I typically fast 20:4?

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 333 “Oh, such a cool number,” of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, palindromes. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

How are you, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I love the number. It's so in alignment, 333. So, yeah, feeling good about that. And three is one of my lucky numbers, so it bodes well for the episode. 

Melanie Avalon: That's wonderful. And okay, I know we literally just had a conversation about the tangents we go on, but I just have to [laughs] ask you something really quickly related, because every single night now, I go in this rabbit hole, wormhole of something related to numbers sometimes. Are you familiar with the Mandela Effect?

Vanessa Spina:  Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It's haunting me. Do any of them land with you.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah and I've heard them talked about a lot on podcasts too, the Shazam movie. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you remember that movie? 

Vanessa Spina: Yep, I remember. It was called Shazam and not Sinbad was in it. The other guy was in it. 

Melanie Avalon: I think it's Sinbad.

Vanessa Spina: There was someone in it. And then when you look it up now, it's been like purged from our collective media members.

Melanie Avalon: You remember the movie? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: See? Mind blown. The one that got me most recently was the rearview mirrors saying, objects in mirror fill in the blank closer than they appear. And then what is in the blank?

Vanessa Spina: Maybe closer than they appear.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, that's what I thought. I thought it was objects and mirror may be closer than they appear. That's what my mom said, my sister and I polled my audience and hundreds of people answered and half said it was that, but it's not. It's objects in mirror are closer than they appear. I went and looked at all the cars in the parking lot and that's what they say. 

Vanessa Spina: I remember it from-- there was, this in Jurassic Park. There's a shot in the movie where he's looking in the rearview mirror and they zoom in on the text and it always stayed with me, but I thought that's what it was. It's funny how yeah, I wonder how much of that is that effect and how much of it is just like, I don't know, just not remembering it properly or your brain filling in a pattern or something.

Melanie Avalon: Some of the really weird ones, though, like the Fruit of the Loom, do you remember that one? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, if you go down the reddit rabbit holes, there are so many people that remember learning what a cornucopia is, because they looked at that picture. So, why would thousands or millions of people have stories about learning what a cornucopia is by looking at the Fruit of the Loom thing if there's no cornucopia? That doesn't make sense. I think it has to do with reality changing. I'm not kidding. Now I've lost half the audience but I'm serious. 

Vanessa Spina: I think it has to do with that. I just don't stress about it too much. I'm like, “Whatever,” maybe we're in the matrix, there's a glitch in the matrix, I don't know I just can't focus on it too much or I won't get anything done.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. Chick-fil-A. I definitely spelled that “Chic” and my mom said she worked at Chick-fil-A in college and even she thought it was something different.

Vanessa Spina: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: So, I don't know listeners, I want to do a podcast on this. I got to find some Mandela effects, like soap person.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you totally should explore it.

Melanie Avalon: I could talk about this for hours. So, yeah, I'm going to lose people here. I do think it might be either parallel realities interacting or some blip or blackhole. I think it could be something with reality.

Vanessa Spina: There're so many possibilities, if this is a simulation or not, or what's going on, but I spend so much time wondering these deep questions, these existential questions, and then I'm like, “Well, we're never really [laughs] going to know, so I may as well just get on with my life.”

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Vanessa Spina: There's only so much speculating you can do until you realize, “Well, you're never going to know either way anyway.”

Melanie Avalon: I just like thinking about it. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't bother me, but when people like-- you think there could be something going on, but you're like, “It's fine.” Some people are like, “Oh, that's not happening.” I mean, it might not be happening, but I don't know. I like thinking about it. I like pondering the possibilities of reality.

Vanessa Spina: Same. Yeah, same. I think there're these questions that haunt you and they kind of come up bubble up every day or every week, and you're like, “Yes. Still don't know the answer.” [laughs] But it is fun to just contemplate what could be. I think also, we've both talked about how we love Star Trek and just sci-fi stuff, and so definitely there's a lot to ponder of what all those infinite possibilities and what could be.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually related to that, I think it's interesting that we just accept reality the way it is. But there are, “How do I say this?” We really judge some concepts of reality as, “Oh, that could never happen.” But then some things we just accept. The idea that red light and near-infrared light, like this invisible stuff, or near-infrared, it's invisible and it is energy and it goes into our body from this device and does things. But we don't think that's weird. But if that didn't exist, we'd be like, “Oh, that's weird.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's true. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, on that note, is there anything new in your world in this reality right now?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I've been so excited because some of you who are listening may know that I created a tone device, which is a breath ketone analyzer. It's kind of a huge passion of mine because I wanted to find a way that people could get biofeedback on their level of fat burning or how deeply they are in ketosis, especially if we're doing intermittent fasting or extended fasting just to get some feedback. That’s like, “What you're doing is augmenting your level of ketosis or deepening your level of fat burning.” I love biofeedback. I'm sure many of you listeners love biofeedback. It's like if you're running on a treadmill or exercise machine, you want to have the feedback of how long you've been on it and how many calories you're burning and your heart rate and all that just adds to the experience. So, I love data. The first generation of the tone has been amazing.

But I really wanted to create the second generation. I've been working on it for almost two years, about a year and a half of iterations of new devices. It's such a long process because every time you kind of go back to the drawing board with notes and then you test the new version and then you recalibrate something. So, we've changed a number of things. But the thing that I wanted to do with it based on feedback from people who are using the tone and love it, is that a lot of us who are doing daily intermittent fasting, we're not getting into 2.0 to 4 super deep ketoses. It's more like you could fast from say, dinner the night before to dinner the next day, a 24-hour fast, you will get into ketosis for sure. But the first generation was really really accurate, the more deeply you were in ketosis, because you get more ketones.

So, the level of acetone would be higher and therefore easier to measure. With breath it's very difficult because with the blood you're measuring millimolar units, which is like in the units of 1000. When you're measuring breath acetone, it's these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles in parts per million. So, it's much easier to measure it when the concentration is higher. Anyway, we have a new airway mold, we have a new program, we have all these new features, and the device is so sensitive, it's amazing. I've been testing the latest version of it, which is the final version, I've decided, because it's working so well, it's performing so well, and it's making me so excited because it's picking up ketones of 0.1, 0.2. 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 really small ketones. But some of us in a day will get to say, if I fast from dinner to dinner, I usually get to 0.8 to 1 millimolar. 

And with the new second generation tone, you can see that. So, you can see if you test in the morning, you test in the early afternoon, you test before dinner, you can see your ketones going up. With the tone, you invest in one device. You don't have to buy all of those expensive wasteful test strips. You don't have to puncture your skin. You don't have to do any of the rigmarole that goes along with that. You can just test an unlimited amount of times and you just have one device. I always wanted to create something cost effective that would give people that biofeedback. I always found blood testing for ketosis was expensive and cost prohibitive. Most people at the most are going to test their ketones once a day, because if it's a dollar or 2 per strip and the costs have come down a little bit, they used to be even $4 or $5, they've definitely come down.

But this is just so much more convenient. If you're wanting to test your blood and you're at someone's house, you're at a restaurant, you have to go in the bathroom, you're not going to pull out your ketone strips in front of other people, your friends or family or whatever. But with the tone, you can just breathe into it. So, you can do it anywhere. [laughs] It's really cool. So, I'm super super excited for the second generation, and I think it'll be out in a couple of months from now. It just gives me goosebumps. It gets me so excited because the accuracy is so high and it's just very difficult to achieve this. But we're finally there and I couldn't be more excited [chuckles] about it. It's really really fun to use and just so valuable. Especially for people like us who do time-restricted eating and then if you do a longer fast, like a 36 hours or 72 hours, four or five-day fast, you also get that feedback, but just in the intraday fasting, like a lot of us do in this community, it can be a valuable tool for that. So, yeah, super super excited.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. Okay, I can't wait till you're on my other show because I feel like I'm going to ask you so many questions. Get ready. [laughs] So, when you're developing this technology, who are you working with to develop it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I have a factory and I have an institute that studies acetone, so it's a collaboration between all of us together, because there's engineering that goes into the program and the program is directing the sensor. So, there's the technology inside the device, the sensor and the programming that goes with it, and then there's the actual mold, which we managed to change. But one of the big challenges with the first version is it only has a 20 second warmup. So, in 20 seconds, the device has to warmup, calibrate, and warmup the sensor. It's a big challenge and we really had to push it and just invest a lot in the new devices to make them able to warmup and do all of that in just 20 seconds because it's quite fast. Usually, you'll see at least 60 seconds I think, the closest other device in terms of the warmup and calibration, unless there's something new out there that I don't know about, but it's a very fast calibration.

So, yeah, it takes a lot of different components and just the trial and error. It is just so time consuming because I can't tell you how many devices I would test. I'd be like, “No, it was working until this and then it's not as accurate here.” So, figuring out, well, what's the next step? Do we do a new airway? Do we do a new sensor? Do we do-- it's just a lot of coordination of different things. It's the most fun thing [laughs] I've ever worked on by far. So, it's definitely a joy, even though it's very time consuming.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. It's just going to be so helpful for people. Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's going to be very motivational for people. That's really what I want for someone who's either been doing fasting for a long time or they're just starting out and they're blowing into it and seeing every few hours the numbers are going up. That's super motivational. I think people would be able to do that with the blood, but it's just so expensive and painful to test like three or four times a day. So, this, I think, can be a motivational tool for people where they're like, “Oh, maybe I'll do another hour and see how high my ketones go” or just to motivate people to practice time-restricted eating. Then my favorite part about it is trying different patterns and trying different things. I was telling you when one of my listeners did the ice bath and their ketones doubled the next day, and then I did it too and mine doubled. 

So, there's really interesting dynamics, because sometimes you can have really high blood ketones and then do a workout and then you test again and they've dropped to like zero. But if you test your breath, they don't go down because you are using those ketones, a high uptake of them that you won't see them anymore in your blood, but you'll still see them in the breath. So, it's a really cool tool I think that will also be motivational for people and that's a lot of feedback that I get is it helps keep me on track. That's how I discovered that, “Oh, breakfast and dinner really work well for me, especially when I'm traveling or staying at a resort or something.” And I don't want to go off the rails, but I could see that having a super early breakfast and fasting until dinner is 9, 10 hours. That got me really high ketones, too. Doing a fasted workout really drives my breath ketones up, whereas on the blood you wouldn't see it as much. So, I think it's definitely a great tool for experimenting and trying all kinds of different things, higher protein, lower protein, higher carb, lower carb. Well, you're not really supposed to use carbs with, it [laughs] no because carbs produce a lot of CO2 and also breath gases when people eat carbs and then the gut bacteria ferment the carbs, we produce methane and CO2 and all kinds of breath gases that really mess with the sensor.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, wait that's interesting. Like me, I eat a really high-carb diet at night.

Vanessa Spina: So, you could use it in the morning when you wake up and all throughout the day until right before you have your first meal. But you don't want to do it after you eat because then the numbers will be conflated with the breath gases like the Co2 and the methane. You never want to use it after brushing your teeth or having alcohol. So, if you have wine, you'll see the numbers will go through the roof because the alcohol has a similar molecular shape to acetone, ethanol does. So yeah, there're a few things that you can't do with, but people who do high carb and do time-restricted eating or intermittent fasting can use the tone as long as you're only testing in the fasted state or at least say you have breakfast and lunch. Then you could wait four or five hours and you could test when you go back in the fasted state.

But that's why it's a tool that people can use. But if you are doing carbs above 20 g, then not after you eat. Because then, yeah, I had one person who was blowing like these crazy numbers and I was like, “What are you eating?” And she's like, “I'm eating low carb with all this cabbage.” I looked it up and there's this sugar in cabbage and some vegetables called-

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what it is?

Vanessa Spina: raffinose.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I think I've heard of that, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And it makes you blow like crazy amounts high, what the tone thinks is acetone. So, it would blow 60, 70. So, some carbs just have certain sugars in them or it's just the fermentation process in the gut that's causing that or it's the CO2, because that's what-- I think there's a lumen. It's mostly measuring the CO2 on the breath. That's because carbs produce the most CO2, whereas fat doesn't.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, I've seen anecdotally I don't remember who was talking about it. At some point, I saw something about somebody getting pulled over and testing positive on breath analyzers for alcohol when it was really being in ketosis.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's totally happened to people. But yeah, if you do a blood alcohol test, you'll be fine. You can prove it. But if you blow into a breath alcohol meter and you're in deep ketosis, it'll set it off for sure.

Melanie Avalon: It's also interesting. I remember it was, I think when Dom D'Agostino was on Peter Attia or something. And that's when I first learned what you mentioned earlier about how the breath acetone-- Does it always or typically comes from burned fat?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it comes directly from your fat. So, your body, when it goes into ketosis, it creates ketones, as you know, in the liver, and it creates beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which are interchangeable forms, but one spontaneously will turn into the other depending on if it's needed. Because BHB is more the storage form as you know, acetoacetate is more the ready to use form. So, it can interconvert between those two forms. But as it interconverts and it turns into acetoacetate, about 15% to 20% of that ketone turns into acetone. It's small enough that it'll diffuse through the airways. So, it's really amazing because like I was saying, if you had high ketones and then you did a workout and then your body used those ketones and your muscles used those ketones and your brain used those ketones, then when you test, you're not going to see much left over in the blood, but you're always going to have that proxy and those molecules of acetone are coming from your fat. It's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite quotes of Dom's. I actually have a reel on my Instagram of him just saying that, “Like the carbons--”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he's like, “the carbons that you're measuring on the breath acetone are coming directly from your fat.” [laughs] And he's like, “You're at your highest rate of fat burning, essentially when you're in ketosis.” So, yeah, I think it's just such a cool thing to be able to breathe your fat and measure it.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. I have three thoughts. One's just a really quick tangent. Somebody commented something on my Instagram the other day, and it is haunting me, haunting me, relates to Dom. They said they found me through Dom's podcast, which I'm like, “Did he mention us or me on his show?”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, maybe he did.

Melanie Avalon:  So, I commented back. I was like, “Oh, when Dom was on my podcast?”, but the person never answered. But I don't think they would mean that because how would they find--? Well, they could have, 

Vanessa Spina: But yeah, he launched a new podcast, so he probably mentioned you or something.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to go listen to every episode, [laughs] I need to find it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you're like, “DMing him, like, “Hey, did you talk about me?” [laughs] Did you mention me?”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I tagged him in the comment when I commented back, but yeah, the comment actually wasn't very supportive. But that's fine, [laughs] turn that ship around.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Now I want to know what it was.

Melanie Avalon: He said, “I was too skinny.”

Vanessa Spina: Oh, and they also found you through Dom's podcast.

Melanie Avalon: They found me through Dom's podcast, but I'm too skinny. [laughs] Thanks for seeking me out and telling me that. So, the things we deal with, I would love to try it because I wonder if I get into ketosis at all. I don't know if I do.

Vanessa Spina: You're one of the first people I'm sending it to. [laughs] I've been waiting to send it to you for so long, and I knew for-- I don't know, a year and a half ago. I was like, “I'm going to send you the second generation when it's out,” because I knew that it would be more practical for the intraday use for you, because I know you were not doing strict keto. If you were, then you could use it anytime, but yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was one of our first conversations way back in the day.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, probably.

Melanie Avalon: You were like, “I want to send it to you”, but I want to wait for the next one. Yeah, this has been a long time coming. This is exciting. I really do wonder though. I think that'll be really interesting to share with listeners because as listeners know, I eat pounds and pounds of fruit every night.

Vanessa Spina: So, what's your morning blood glucose? I'm just curious.

Melanie Avalon: It's usually, I always do get a dawn effect, but typically what I've seen on the CGM when I wake up, depending on when I look at the CGM and the dawn effect and everything, the dawn effect will actually make it go to like 115 or something for a spike and then it'll be 90s and then it goes down all day, 80s. After I do cryo, then it really starts going down in the evening-- So, when I really feel like I'm in my zone fasting, it's usually in the 80s. It used to be in the 70s, but now it's usually in the 80s and then when I eat especially, I noticed a huge difference when I started taking my berberine. Like I said, I was not expecting it to have that profound of a difference. But now when I eat, even with my meal, that will have probably 150 or 200 g of carbs from fruit, maybe it doesn't usually go above 120 and then it comes back down and then it keeps going down. The worst blood sugar regulation is really in the morning period up until afternoon.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because you wear CGM, so you can tell that it is the dawn effect. It's not like something else because mine was in the 80s for the longest time and then I just close my eating window. I know it doesn't apply to you because you eat late, but I close my eating window like around 7, 7:30 and now it's in the 70s. Sometimes it's in the 70s, low 70s every single day for months now. That was the main thing.

Melanie Avalon: So, flatline 70s.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's always low 70s. But I don't know if I have a dawn effect, I have to put one of those NutriSense CGMs on. I literally can't wait to postpartum to put it on because that's when it's going to be super helpful for me. Obviously, not the few weeks right after I give birth, but postpartum when I'm ready to focus on my metabolic health again and focus on my fitness and all that. It's going to be such an amazing tool and I think could be such an amazing tool for anyone who wants to focus on their fitness because I'm staying as fit as I can while I'm pregnant. But I think postpartum it could be a really good tool for that when you're sort of getting back on track with things.

Melanie Avalon: I truly think if everybody on the planet did just one round for two weeks, I think it would have a profound effect on people's life choices.

Vanessa Spina: I remember listening to-- you probably heard this episode with Dr. Peter Attia, maybe it was a couple years ago and he was experimenting with one and he was just talking about all the things that he was like, “I can't believe this did it to me and this spiked my blood sugar and this--.” I was like, “Well, duh, that did.” But there're always things that affect people differently. They've done studies where they'll show one person's response to banana is crazy and another person's is like nothing. So, those are things I want to learn because I'm like, “Hey, if I can have of an unripe green banana, [laughs] I would love that if it doesn't really affect my blood sugar.” There are so many things you can learn and then there's always going to be things that surprise you where you're like, “I never would have thought that that was doing it,” but it was some ingredient in your almond milk or something that you just don't know, is there? Yeah, it's such an incredible tool.

Melanie Avalon: I love seeing how I react to alcohol and wine. That's always really interesting. I love seeing how I react to like if I have either in the moment with the alcohol and wine or drinking more earlier on a night I go out, how that affects it later. I did have a night, the other night when I was wearing it, where I did just eat all meat and it was a flatline. I was like, “Oh, that is interesting.” I was like, “Maybe I should do like a round of carnivore and just have flatlines all the time for a little bit,” just for fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's when I was wearing it last time and it was so funny because it was a flatline. I was like, “This is really not giving me useful information right now, because it was always 80 something. It was always 82, 83, 84, 85.” It's amazing, though, because you learn that protein really is broken down over four or 5 hours, and that's one of the reasons it's so amazing for you. It does improve your blood glucose and it does improve your insulin and you can see it in real time. But, yeah, when I did it, I was carnivore and I was like, “Going to get any action here? What's going on?” [laughs] Like I'm always the same number. I remember there were a couple of people, Dr. Jaime Seeman, she was laughing about my post. I said, “It was just like a flatline.” So, yeah, it was not that exciting. But I can only imagine what-- some people's look if they're doing high carb or processed high carb all throughout the day or eating, starting off the day with some cereal and orange juice. [laughs] You could learn so much.

Melanie Avalon: Two things. One, some people I'd be curious, I bet some people on carnivore who are also really-- I could see how some people, either on higher protein carnivore or given their exercise and stress, I'd be curious, they might see spikes. That would be interesting totally.

Vanessa Spina: Well, we got a question on I did an interview with Dr. Don Layman. He's one of the most incredible protein scientists in the world and one of my favorite guests. 

Melanie Avalon: What did he discover? He discovered--

Vanessa Spina: He discovered the leucine threshold. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: He's really incredible. And a lot of other things. Like, he mentored Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. They came up with the muscle centric fitness concept, but his lab came up with so many different things, the 30 g of protein at a meal concept.

Melanie Avalon: That's him. 

Vanessa Spina: That's all him, so many things came out of his lab. It's super interesting and he believes one of my favorite things is that thermic effect of protein, that extra calorie burn we get from eating protein is because of the ATP being used for muscle-protein synthesis. He's just such an incredible scientist. Yeah. So, one of our listeners wrote in and she said that her husband was getting really crazy blood glucose spikes on carnivore and they're using a CGM to monitor. She's like, “He doesn't eat a single carb. Why is his blood sugar going through the roof?” Dr. Layman was just, “I don't know how to answer this and I honestly don't know.” I was like, “It makes me think of Dr. Ted Naiman.” He always says like, “Fat can also cause diabetes, too much fat.” What if it's the fat? What if he's eating really fatty cuts of meat, just only ribeyes and super high fat that that's what's causing it. Neither of us knew, but I was like, it'd be interesting, right? if it's the fat that could do it because your body is at some kind of energy toxicity and then it's converting all the protein into glucose and then creating this weird after effect that could give you diabetes. I don't know. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's what the vegan community is really big on, how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors on our cells negatively.

Vanessa Spina: But it's so weird because we make saturated fat.

Melanie Avalon: We make it. Yes, but I guess when we're inundated in it or if we take in too much that's because I'm prepping right now. I think I said to interview Dr. Kahn, Dr. Joel Kahn-

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's right, that’s right. 

Melanie Avalon: -on Friday. I'm relistening to his interview on Rogan with Chris Kresser. So, he has a chapter or a section in there. So, I was just reading about it and he talks about how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors and can make you insulin resistance, which I can completely see in the context of a carb diet, but in the context of no carbs. I guess what you just said, if your liver is producing more glucose from protein and then the fat is creating that with the receptors, I guess you could get in a state. I don't know I am not-- This is not my forte.

Vanessa Spina: I really want to know from her if-- and I'm going to follow up with her because she asked the question in our Facebook group for my podcast. I really want to follow up and see what if he did a lean protein carnivore? I wonder if it would change things, because people always assume it's the high protein, but it could be the high protein plus the high fat. And it's just so interesting because Dr. Layman was also saying there're so many studies done where the results that they get are just because people are just eating too many calories in general, too much carb, too much fat. Then they're blaming the protein levels, whereas the protein is like helping improve your blood sugar and insulin. It's the other stuff. It's the fuel macros or so.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, like I said, I’m really excited to interview Dr. Kahn because I think I'm such a good example of-- I know I'm N of 1, but I eat super super high protein and animal protein, very high. I mean, higher than most people definitely in my category and then really really high fruit. I don't have these blood sugar issues and my cholesterol is like plummeting. So, it just makes you question things [giggles].

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm definitely going to listen to that one.

Melanie Avalon: I am excited. Well, and for listeners, I don't think we even said what a CGM is, but if they're not familiar it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a sensor that you put onto your arm. It is painless to apply I promise and then it monitors your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid continuously for two weeks. We love NutriSense. You can get $30 off at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast. So nutrisense.co/ifpodcast, the coupon code is IFPODCAST, that will get you $30 off. You do save money if you get a subscription. So, if you think you're going to be doing it more long term, we definitely recommend that route, otherwise do the two weeks. You also get a free month of nutritionist support, so you can actually chat with somebody in the app and they'll help you make sense of all the data. So, it's super cool. How can people learn more about your new Tone device?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you for asking. I actually am doing a launch for it with a very special launch discount. And you can go tonedevice.com and sign up for the list. And you'll receive that launch discount when they are out. And you'll also find out when they're available to order. But yeah, it's going to be in a couple of months, so it's coming soon. I'm very excited. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. I imagine how many molds have you made? They're very pricey, aren't they?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and it's so funny because I literally have them. I'm in my office right now and there're Tone devices everywhere in our house. Almost every drawer you open, there's a Tone device. It's like Easter. It's like Easter eggs. [laughs] I'm like, “How is there one in this sock drawer? There's one in here, there's one in Luca's drawer. They just pop out everywhere and I don't know what to do with them. I label them which version they are and stuff. I almost just want to keep them all, put them in a glass case or something. [laughs] They are coming out of our ears here. There's just so many. But yeah, it's worth it because I think the new version is going to be just so cool. And that's the most fun part for me. The last note I want to say on this is, it's the most fun part for me is when people actually get them and they're using them and they're tagging me in their stories and they're like, “Look at my ketones today,” and I did a fasted workout and check this out. 

And as a community, I get to just interact so much with everyone. And it's the part I'm the most excited about. I know I'm sure you feel that way too when you get feedback from someone who's saying, “The berberine is like a game changer or whatever, it just makes your whole month.” It just makes you so happy. You're like, “This is why I enjoy doing this stuff.” It affects people in ways that make them happy. And when they love the stuff that you create, it just makes you feel like all warm and fuzzy inside. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's so fulfilling. I do the same thing with the supplement bottles. I had a moment the other day because I've embraced this new mantra and I say it in my head every night, throw away something every day. So, throw away every day. I'm trying to very slowly just cleanse my physical space, get rid of stuff. The thing I threw away the other day was I had the first glass bottle from the supplement line, but it wasn't even labeled. It's literally just a glass bottle. And I was like, “This has just got to go. I do not need this. I don't need to keep this,” but I want to keep all the bottles and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's special to keep it. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I threw it away, but [laughs] I have the ones with the labels still.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, got to put them in a glass case.

Melanie Avalon: It was when Scott sent me just a glass bottle that we're going to use for the glass bottles, it was that glass bottle. But I was like, “I don't actually need this on my shelf.”

Vanessa Spina: Right? Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm just going to throw one really quick link since we're talking about all the things. I am launching my EMF blocking product line. So, more information on that. We're starting with air tubes. Friends, please don't wear Bluetooth AirPods. I just shudder, I shudder, I shudder. But in any case, you can get more information for the launch special at melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist. So melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist, get on that for sure. Shall we answer some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I'm going to read two questions because they sort of go together and these are both from Facebook. So, the first one is from Nikki. She says, “I like to do a couple 24-hour fasts per week. I usually break these fasts around dinner. The goal of the fasting is fat loss, but I do still want to preserve lean muscle. On the other days, I typically get around 115 to 130 g of protein. Should I make sure I get 100 plus grams of protein on my two fasting days even though I have an eating window of two to three hours on those days? It's difficult to get that much in a short window. And I'm not sure how beneficial it is in one sitting. Could or should I make up for it by increasing my protein intake on the other days.” Then related to that is from Nancy and she said, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when I typically fast 20:4?” So, she's doing something sort of similar. They're both struggling to get all the protein. What are your thoughts, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I love both these questions. For me, I need to answer them separately because it's two different things, but they're kind of fun, especially to Nancy's creative ways to get the protein in, I'm all about that. So, in terms of Nikki's question, it's such a great question. So, the goal is fat loss, but wanting to make sure you preserve your lean muscle, which is key for your metabolism and maintaining as much lean body mass as possible for your body recomp. I wouldn't be concerned about only getting-- you're saying on the other days that you're getting 115 to 130 g. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting over 100 g of protein on your two fasting days. I don't think it's that necessary. I think you just focus on getting it on your eating days to get that 115 to 130. It's definitely like that 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, I think is great when you're doing body recomposition. But if you are also doing fat loss and you're practicing fasting, that's how you're also ramping up the fat loss is through that caloric control. So, I don't think that you need as much. If you're fasting, you're probably getting into some light ketosis. Ketones have a muscle-sparing effect, so I wouldn't worry about having to hit 100 g of protein each day. That might just make you uncomfortable trying to do it with less meals. So, that's my opinion on the first one. As far as Nancy's, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when you are fasting 20:4.” So, you're doing one meal a day. 

So, I have two different diverging thoughts on this. The first is, do you necessarily need to get 120 g of protein? I would question that first, and I don't have all the information on why you're consuming that much and what your goals are. But say you're doing 120 g of protein because you're targeting around 1 g of protein per pound of body weight or ideal body weight, and you want to get the optimal amount of protein in to preserve your lean muscle mass while doing body recomposition. I would say target as much protein as possible till you're getting those satiety effects. You need at least 30 g of protein per meal. I don't know if you are able to, but if you're able to have two meals in that 4-hour eating window, if you're having, say, either a dinner and then waiting a couple of hours and having a protein shake, you can definitely fit in a couple of meals, and you can definitely get at least 30 g of protein at each of those meals, which will mean you'll get at least 3 g of leucine, as long as you're doing high quality protein. 

If you're doing plant-based protein, you probably need a little bit more 35 g as a target but if you're getting at least 3 g of leucine at two meals in your eating window, then you're going to be more than fine in terms of preserving your lean mass and your muscle. I know that having a 4-hour eating window doesn't give you that many meal opportunities, but I would definitely try to break it up in that 4 hours so you have at least two opportunities where you are triggering muscle protein synthesis as opposed to just one meal where you're having like 100 to 120 g of protein. Now the other thing is, I myself tend to do a similar eating window. I change it up. Sometimes, I'm doing breakfast early early in the day. I was just doing that for the past week. Then I'll have a dinner about nine to 10 hours later.

So, I go back in the fasted state. But I have come up with so many different creative ways to get in as much protein as possible. So, I have turned different aspects of the meal into protein opportunities. So, the main proteins that I have at my meal, whether that's chicken or beef or fish. But then, I use nonfat yogurt to make a lot of sauces. So, there're so many amazing sauces you can make with yogurt. You can make tzatziki if you're doing kebabs or if you're doing a yogurt marinade. I make salad dressings with it that I'll have with my protein and with some salad. So, like honey mustard is super easy to make with some yogurt in there. Sometimes, I'll make like a tuna salad and I'll use high protein yogurt, which is like lower fat yogurt instead of mayo. And I also do a couple of other things. I make protein bread. So, I make this three to four times a week and I make a couple of loaves of protein bread. It's a bread, you may have heard of.

Melanie Avalon: It is a cloud bread?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, so it's often called cloud bread. The version that I make is Maria Emmerich's recipe and its liquid egg whites and powdered egg whites blended together in a stand mixer and then you put it in the oven for about 30 to 40 minutes and it's delicious. It's the protein wonder bread. I use it in so many different meals. I make sandwiches with it. Sometimes, I'll do like a tortilla soup or like tomato soup and I'll use the bread to dip in it. I'll make protein churros with it with sweetened yogurt. There're just so many amazing things that you can do with it. 

Of course, toast with eggs and all that or just for breakfast, I'll have the protein bread and then cream cheese with lox, tomatoes, and capers. It's a lox bagel. There're just so many things that you can do with it and so that's another way that you're getting more protein in. Then, there's the sweet dessert options. You can make a protein shake using-- I like to use whey protein or egg protein and I usually do that either a couple of hours after my dinner or sometimes it's like closer to dinner if I haven't had as much protein with the dinner. But I do almond milk, frozen berries, ice, and whey protein and blend it up and tastes absolutely amazing. So, I'm hitting the protein at every step of the way and every aspect of the meal has some protein in it.

And sometimes, I think at first when you're starting to prioritize protein more, it seems overwhelming. Like, “How can I get this many grams of protein in one day?” But when you start using these different yogurts, different protein bread, different things to incorporate into the meal, it seamlessly becomes a lifestyle over time. Then you're like, “Gosh, my meals are just so incredibly satiating, so satisfying.” The biggest issue I have is I get so full, it's hard for me to sometimes have another meal because every component of my meal is protein related. So, the first part of the answer was like, do you necessarily need to get 120 g? But if you want to, there're a lot of creative ways and even not 120 g, hitting around 100, you can easily do it if you're getting a bit creative. What do you think, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: That was so helpful. Thank you so much. That was so impressive. That was like, so many great suggestions because I eat the same thing every single night, so I'm not much help. So, [laughs] it's really helpful to hear all of these options. Thank you. I'm thanking you from the listeners. Thank you. Some of the thoughts I had, so really interesting. I was really really curious what you're going to say about the 100 g of protein, especially because I'm reading Dr. Gabrielle Lyon's book right now and she's very adamant about 100 g every day. I'm like, “Oh, this seems very important.” So, you diverge a little bit in your thinking on that.

Vanessa Spina: Well, because if you're not doing time-restricted eating, you're not getting into any light ketosis. But I know our listeners are mostly practicing intermittent fasting or fasting. As Nikki was saying, “She's doing fasting.” So, because she's doing fasting of 24 hours twice a week, she's definitely getting into ketosis. So, she doesn't have to worry about getting that same amount of protein on those days because the ketones are providing that muscle protective aspect. But if she wasn't fasting and you are trying to optimize muscle growth, muscle gains, you want to get as many opportunities in the day to trigger muscle protein synthesis. And for most people, that's three meals a day, 30 g at each meal. I know that's what Gabrielle recommends and that's like 90 g to 100 g of protein a day. And that's a great target I think for the average person who tends to eat three square meals, but for people who do fasting, it's a little bit different. Especially with two 24 hours fasts, you're definitely getting into ketosis and those ketones will help protect your muscle.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to talk to her about it when I interview her, because she didn't-- I don't think because I'm almost done with the book and I don't think she has said anywhere I could be wrong. I don't think she said anywhere that fasting would indicate that maybe you could have less protein. Interestingly, she does say there are studies on exercise and maybe creating a muscle preserving effect. So, it's what you just said, but it's on the exercise front.

Vanessa Spina:  Right, right. Yeah, because you're sending a signal with resistance training to preserve.

Melanie Avalon:  Because I read that and I was like, “Oh, that's kind of like with fasting,” where we're upregulating human growth hormone and we're like creating this state where the muscles are basically primed. That's what she said. It was something about how-- I'd have to find the exact quote, but it was something about how when the muscles are really primed from exercise, then they can soak up those amino acids really well. I'm using very casual terminology, but basically you might not need quite as much because it's so efficient at grabbing what's there. And I feel that's a similar situation that's created from fasting. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. For people who are over the age of 40 and really concerned about keeping as much of that lean mass as possible, I definitely recommend doing that kind of exercise-- resistance training when you're fasting, because you want to send that signal, we need these muscles, we need to hold on to them and not catabolize them. And then when you break your fast, of course, make sure that meal has all the protein in it. But I think that we are really integrating a lot of these concepts. Well, I can see from your community, this community, my community, and others, that people are really getting this information, putting it into practice, noticing huge amelioration or difference in their body composition. It's relatively recent that we've really started talking about protein, really focusing in on it. Unless you've been in the bodybuilding world for years, then you probably know some of these concepts a little bit more. 

But I really feel like this information has kind of been in that space, like the physique competitors, the bodybuilders or the science labs, and now it's reaching so many people. Thanks to advocates like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I just love getting questions like this because it's like, yes, we know how much protein to get, and we know how important it is, and we just want to know the best way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I love it so much. My suggestion that I'll add to your-- because you gave so many incredible suggestions about what to add. So, the thing I'll give as a piece of advice is maybe focusing on what not to have. What I mean by that is really leading with protein rather than having a super high fat, high protein meal because that might really fill you up. So, for me, when I eat, and again, I eat very similarly, it's always just really really high amounts of animal protein, like fish, chicken, steak, and I eat a lot of cucumbers and fruit. So, I'm not prescribing that because I know it's super weird and it's like what I love. I basically lead with protein. So, my hunger is being initially addressed with protein rather than with fat per se. Even with the carbs, I eat those as like my dessert. So maybe not letting focusing on the protein and not adding a lot that might prematurely increase your satiety. That would be my suggestion. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's great. I think that's what Ori Hofmekler always says to you right. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we have to try to get him back on this show. We should have him and Dom and all the people.

Vanessa Spina: Both of those would be so much [unintelligible 00:53:12]. But Ori would be like a dream.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'm going to reach out to Ori. I'm writing that down right now. Ori, O-R-I and I have the thing I can use as the moment. Remember how I said his nephew is my sister's--

Vanessa Spina: Totally. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: And what about protein powders? So, when people have your upcoming protein powder coming out, how much protein will that add for them? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, what's amazing about it? Scott and I have talked a little bit about the formulation, but because we've optimized it based on the science of leucine and muscle protein synthesis, you only need one scoop, which is about 15 g of protein. But because we've added in the leucine, you'll still trigger muscle protein synthesis, but without having to take these giant scoops of protein, which, as you were just saying, with regards to fullness, can make people feel super full or bloated, if it's not a high-quality protein, if it's whey protein concentrate or different blends, whey protein isolate, moderate amount. I only take one small scoop and it's great because I can have that an hour or two after dinner and I'm still not going to bed, feeling super full. I would never even think of doing that if I was using a traditional protein powder where you have to have these mega scoops just be digesting that for so long. I don't think it would be comfortable to go to bed with a full stomach like that.

Melanie Avalon: I love going to bed with a full stomach.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, like overly full when you're just like--

Melanie Avalon: No, true.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: How can people get on the list so they don't miss your launch special for that?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, the other other Tone, toneprotein.com. You can sign up to get that launch discount and be the first to know when it's out. It's going to be the biggest discount ever offered on Tone Protein, and it'll be out in a couple of months, so you can stay tuned on it and just sign up with your name and email @toneprotein.com. But thank you for asking me.

Melanie Avalon: No, of course. That just made me think really quick. Speaking of the naming thing, because I have AvalonX supplements and with my EMF line, I was like, “Do I use the same name? What do I do?” It's like a whole thing, like a big decision. I'm keeping it. I basically have AvalonX supplements and then my AvalonX. I have AvalonX powered by MD Logic for the supplements and AvalonX powered by SYB for my EMF line. But it was a big moment decision. Did you have that moment decision of calling it the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: I felt like it just made sense from the beginning because Tone, I created it because ketones and wanting to get toned. And for me, the Tone Lux just made sense because it's like somehow related to the mitochondria. But Tone Protein was, like, I always wanted to call it that because you're getting toned and it all connects back to that. But I think it's great to have one consistent brand across different things. So, I'm glad you're keeping AvalonX. I think it's such a great name. 

Melanie Avalon: Love it. Awesome. Well, this has been so fun. Great palindrome episode 333. For listeners If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there or you can ask in my Facebook group IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. So yeah, this has been super fun. Anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun and I'm super excited to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 27

Episode 332: Special Guest Barry Conrad, Allergies, Food Fear, IF & Social Norms, High Protein Diets, Value Alignment & Lifestyle, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 332 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

TONE DEVICE: Introducing The Brand New Second Generation Tone Device! If You Practice Regular IF, TRE, Prolonged Fasting And Or Low Carb/Keto, Your Body Makes A Metabolic Switch To Primarily Burning Fat For Fuel! Being Metabolically Flexible Means You Can Readily Tap Into Stored Fat For Energy. With The Tone Device You Simply Breathe Into The Device When Fasting And Receive An Instant Reading On Your Breath Ketones. You May Test An Unlimited Amount Of Times, With One Investment In A Tone. Get On The Exclusive VIP List To Be Notified When The 2nd Generation Is Available To Order And Receive The Launch Discount At tonedevice.com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

TONE DEVICE: Get On The Exclusive VIP List To Be Notified When The 2nd Generation Is Available To Order And Receive The Launch Discount At Tonedevice.Com!

Special Guest: Barry Conrad
Link Tree

dealing with Food Fear

Body Dysmorphia

finding intermittent fasting

is it Metabolism?

starting IF

Listener Q&A: Joelle - What are ways to gracefully decline social food events at work? Depending on the person, I don’t always like to mention fasting.

Navigating Social Norms

Body Composition

Listener Q&A: Jill - Can you optimize for fat loss and muscle building at the same time while doing IF?

Listener Q&A: Deanne - Muscle building and needing to eat more protein...

eating high protein

aligning lifestyle with your values

biohacking favorites

2 truths & a lie

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to episode 332 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out Ifpodcast.com, Melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 332 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here with a super special guest. We have a super special episode today for you guys. I'm just so excited. Okay, so the backstory on today's conversation probably, I don't even know now, a few years ago, I'm trying to remember the origin story of this. There's this fabulous human being named Barry Conrad who is here right now, and we were following each other on Instagram. Barry was actually a listener of the show, correct? That's how you found me through this show? 

Barry Conrad: Yep. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yes. So, we have a listener here, and so I feel like, we’ve interacted a little bit on Instagram, and then I think we started actually talking because I was so perplexed, because this man looks very young, and he is young. [laughs] 

Barry Conrad: Can we not-- [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Basically, I was curious about your age, and I think that's how we started actually talking. It turns out that he is an intermittent faster as well. Well, we can talk about the actual style of intermittent fasting that you do, but this man is so inspiring. He's doing so many cool, incredible things. I thought it would be an amazing conversation to have, a motivational conversation, to see what it looks like to have a really high functioning career, doing all the things, being an amazing physique, and also super appreciating food and doing all the things with fasting. So, I thought listeners would really enjoy this conversation. 

So, a little bit about Barry. And I will ask you about your personal story. So, I'm sure you'll touch on some of this, but he's done stuff with music, acting, and theater. This is actually ironic. So, was Fox's Power Rangers Ninja Storm your first big thing? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah, it was. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having, Melanie. It's crazy, it's surreal, because I started listening to your show. I just finished a show, and I stumbled on-- I've just typed "intermittent fasting" in Spotify. The show that you had with Gin when she was still on it came up and then I just started binging it, and that's how I found you. I was like, "This is really interesting." And then I think maybe shouted out the show on Instagram and then we started going back and forth. I don't know. I think that's the origin story. To answer your question, yeah, it was the first big deal situation to me doing Power Rangers. But the funny thing with that was, I was a huge fan of the show as a kid, so it was pretty surreal as well as I am on the set of a Power Rangers show, that was amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: The crazy ironic thing about it is we've had one other actor on this show and he was in Power Rangers. 

Barry Conrad:  Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: What are the odds? 

Barry Conrad: That is actually weird. 

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that weird? 

Barry Conrad: Is that just a vibe that you give up like you attract?

Melanie Avalon: I guess like if intermittent fasting Power Rangers like-- [laughs] It's pretty telling. It's pretty telling how powerful it can be. So, Power Rangers and then you were in your first feature film, the number one box office hit, The Sapphires, and then you've been on stage, and Violet, which is a broadway hit. Hairspray, Grease, Beautiful, The Carole King Musical, Matilda. And then you originated the role of Kane Jones on Australia's longest running TV drama series, Neighbours. And then most recently, you have your web series Banter with BC, first of all, it's super awesome. Congrats. Are you producing it? Was that all your brainchild? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, well, I was at lost for a new idea. What else can I post? Because, as you know, social media is such a huge part of what we do. I thought, what is interesting other than just, here's another event, here's another set, here's another shirtless photo, here's whatever it is. And so, I thought, "You know what? What do I enjoy doing?" Connecting with people and food. So, I just thought, let me just get someone. Let's have lunch, talk, and film it. And it just got traction from there. But it didn't start, as like, a business venture. It just started as something I'm passionate about, but now it's actually grown into something that is getting press and we're looking at expanding it. So, it's really exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. That's actually similar to this show. We started it as something fun to do and it was a passion project, and here we are now.  If listeners should not pick up on this, you banter with people. So, it's like an interview style show while having a full meal at a restaurant, because we got to love food around here. 

Barry Conrad:  We do. I have to say, though, Melanie, I haven't had scallops yet, so that's something that we need to add to one of the episodes is like a shout out to you. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of scallops, one thing I learned on your show, and I have learned more about since then, is that you used to have a shellfish allergy. Is that correct? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. Good pickup, by the way. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. What I found fascinating about this, and I would actually love to talk a little bit about this. So, you liked it so much that you kept eating it, eating shellfish through allergic symptoms, and now you're no longer allergic. 

Barry Conrad: Is that weird? 

Melanie Avalon: It's awesome. I'm just wondering-- were you severely allergic and then you just stopped being allergic? 

Barry Conrad: It was really a situation. For example, I was in Houston one year, and I just had a couple of some shrimp, for example, and my face just blew up. I'd get hives, my neck would expand, my eyes would swell up. It was really bad. Like, the symptoms were pretty hectic, but I was so stubborn. I was like, "I'm not giving this up. There's no way. [laughs] It's like going up to a stove knowing that it's going to be hot and keep touching it. But I was not willing to give it up, so I just kept persisting and kept eating it. And now I'm very proud to say that I'm not allergic anymore. I can smash it. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated. So, was there a transition? If you remember, did you start reacting less or did you just stop reacting overnight? 

Barry Conrad: It wasn't overnight. Maybe the symptoms started to subside a little bit. My lip would get a little bit itchy. My tongue would get a little bit itchy, but then I wouldn't break out in hives anymore. It did like overtime gradually decrease, but it wasn't overnight. I just ignored it suddenly. I was like, “Nah, keep eating.” 

Melanie Avalon: Well, A, I want to research this more, but I find this really encouraging and motivating because I think so many people have-- well, I'm not saying people who are allergic to things should go eat the allergic things, but in today's culture with food, people have so many sensitivities. I mean, I know, I do. And allergies, and there's a lot of food fear. If there's one thing I've learned about you over the past few years, it's that you are the antithesis of food fear. [laughs] You're very inspiring. 

Barry Conrad: It's hilarious. Maybe I should put that in my bio. The antithesis of food fear. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: No, I think it's so great because I think people-- I mean, I know speaking from experience for me personally, I feel like I react to certain foods and I try to be very careful in what I eat. So, it's very inspiring and liberating to see somebody like you, who you are very health conscious and at the same time you love enjoying the food, and I don't sense any food fear. I mean, you were severely allergic and just kept eating. What are your thoughts on food fear and how do you approach food? Do you have food fear? I might have just made a lot of assumptions. 

Barry Conrad: No. So, food fear, do you mean in the way of, "If I eat this, I'll have a reaction," or do you mean, "If I eat this, I'll gain weight, so I shouldn't eat it?" Or both? 

Melanie Avalon: Both. I think so many people, especially our listeners, are saturated in both. 

Barry Conrad: Okay. So with the first part of that question, not really. Like, I'm pretty game to try any food. Being from South Africa, we were raised a lot of animal protein, but also went camping a lot. So, we catch fish, pick shellfish from the rocks, shellfish. We tried different things. I've had, like, sheep's brains, I've had shark. I've always been adventurous of my taste buds. I'm not sure I would try rodents. That's not really my jam. Just saying. In general, I'm pretty open to trying food. So that's that side of things. In terms of fear of what the food is going to do to me aesthetically, I definitely have had that, for sure. Like, I've had body dysmorphia right after high school. One of my ex-girlfriends got me into modeling, and that set off a massive chain of events in terms of eating disorders. 

I had body dysmorphia big time, and food was definitely something that I'm more controlled, and I wasn't as liberated. Food is more something that I controlled and I wasn't as adventurous because I thought if I had this, I'd get fat or gain weight because an agent once told me, “Perfection is desired, darling, you need to lose some weight.” And that statement still resonates in my mind now. And that was so long ago, but that affected me so much. So, food fear, absolutely. I really struggled with that. But in terms of the allergy side of things, not so much. I'll try pretty much anything. What about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, just first of all, to comment on that really quickly, first of all, thank you so much for talking about that because I feel like it’s very women talk about it a lot, but men, it's like not a thing as much to talk about, like body dysmorphia or eating disorders. And I know it's still prevalent. It's not nice to know, but thank you for talking about that. I will answer your question because I know you asked me a question, but how did you deal with that? 

Barry Conrad: You know what? I definitely wouldn't say that I have body dysmorphia anymore. I don't identify as having that anymore. When I do get tired and weary, at times, a thought may come into my mind diet brain, if you want to call it that. But it's very much something that I don't think about anymore. I think it's just overtime and a lot of healing internally, more changing the view of myself and my self-worth. This is going to sound super corny, but my value isn't in what I do, but who I am. So, that really helped to bring myself back to who I was and to not be chained by the title of “Body Dysmorphia.” It was the point where I would lie to people. My friends would say, “Hey, do you want to hang?” I'm like, “Ah, I've got to help my parents with something.” But I'd be home working out and having chicken breast and stuff. So, it was pretty hectic. But now, as you know, I'll eat all the things. Fasting has just brought so much freedom to my life in that way, big time. 

Melanie Avalon: I think what also is hard about it is speaking of being at home and working out and eating a chicken breast, is it's an experience like the diet culture and the working out and all of that that it gives you things you want, so it can be effective, these restrictive diets and being super controlling and so you get what you want from it.  So, it can be compared to an addiction where it's really just negatives from the addiction, like a drug addiction. When you're engaged in this behavior where you're over restricting and dieting and the gym and all of those things, you're getting what you want from it physically, possibly. So, I think that makes it even harder for people to come out of. 

Barry Conrad: Absolutely, because you are getting a result and the more compliments you get or the more you see it changing, it's like, "Oh, well, I better keep on-- more is more." But that's actually not what you should do because then you get caught in a cycle of like you can't jump off that treadmill, pun intended.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect pun, actually, similar to you, because I can answer your question and it relates to all of this. I was always chronically trying all the different diets and feeling really restrictive and similar to you was because of my concern about being on camera and all of that. And then when I found intermittent fasting, I was like, “Oh, this is amazing.” I can actually eat as much as I want and not feel restricted, even though it might look restrictive to other people. It just works so well for me personally. Then also to answer your question, I am still very and I probably do still have food fear and am controlling on what I eat. At the same time, I super love what I eat. So, it's a weird combination. It's not like I would want to be eating other things. I loved what we've talked before [chuckles] about all the things.

Barry Conrad: The scallops and the cucumbers and the–

Melanie Avalon: Scallops and the protein, steak, elk, and lamb.

Barry Conrad:  Is lamb, yeah. That has the different taste. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That has a different texture-- an earthy texture, yes. So how did you find intermittent fasting? What made you start it? 

Barry Conrad: I'm trying to find the origin because I was thinking about that leaning in today. And I had done, like, the Body for Life situation, and then I did paleo for a long time, which I loved. I think it was definitely about six or seven years ago now. But I must have googled it or something like that and said, “Oh, you can eat whatever you want.” But it takes the decision fatigue out of eating. And I thought, "You know what? Let me try this and see what happens." It was during the end of Grease, when I did Grease, I think, and at that time, I hadn't been in the gym for two years because of-- well, I had the situation with my lung. There's so much to get into, but I had that, so I couldn't work out. I was doing body weight stuff at home and just more controlling my food. I've never thought, "This sucks, [chuckles] I won’t be able to eat more food." So, trying fasting helped me to do that, and I just binged your show, to be honest. That really educated me for real. No, seriously, that I got so much out of that and different protocols. I started with 19:5, and then I moved to 24, and now I averaged 20-hours a day, every day of fasting. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Although you eat earlier. Well, compared to me. [laughs]. So, wait how does that manifest for you, the 24? 

Barry Conrad: Well, I like to eat later because it's more social. You can go out with your friends, go out, have some wine, have some drinks, have some food. But sometimes schedules don't permit that, so I have to do it earlier, which is fine. I'm not bound by, “Oh, wow, can't eat because I'm fasting.” If there's an occasion, I'll just eat, and then I'll just jump back on again. So that's not really a thing. But for me, it's more like a restaurant type situation where I'll have a glass of wine or two while I cook my main meal. I might snack on something, have the main meal, and then I'm done. I don't typically have dessert, but I usually have the one big meal and maybe some trinkets, they're like snacks, so like chocolate, chips. I really eat a lot. And people would be like, "How are you doing that?" 

I don't actually know because some people have that and they just can't like their bodies will just blow up. But I don't know, maybe it's just the protective effects of fasting. I'm not too sure. You tell me. 

Melanie Avalon: Tell you why it's working? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah, in terms of why, I mean, I have ultra processed food maybe once or twice a week, and it's not too bad. 

Melanie Avalon: Now it's coming back to me some of the things we talked about earlier when we first started talking, because you also were on team like protein high. You eat a lot of protein, right? 

Barry Conrad: High protein. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, I think that's a huge key, especially right now I'm reading-- Do you follow Dr. Gabrielle Lyon? 

Barry Conrad: I don't. But should I? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, you would love her. She's all about muscle centric medicine, and she's all about high protein. She has a new book coming out called Forever Strong. I love her. She's amazing. So, I've been really saturated reading her book and the power of a high protein diet. And I've just been thinking more and more. I think if people focused on protein, as like a cornerstone of their meal, I think that would help so much for people with body composition, with satiety, with sustainability. So, I think that could be playing a huge role. I mean, I think for you, you probably do have metabolically-- I don't want to diagnose you, but you probably-- [laughs] here's what's happening from Dr. Melanie. Nope, not at all. That's not what this is. I'm guessing, though, that your metabolism, you probably do well with food, especially if you are doing high protein and fasting, like, it works for you. 

I think a lot of people, when they start intermittent fasting, it's so great because now they can possibly have things, they might not would have been able to have if they were eating in a normal pattern, would make them gain weight or not work for them. But by doing fasting, because of all of these cellular mechanisms that are activated, they're now able to "have their cake and eat it too," no pun intended. 

Barry Conrad: Definitely pun intended. 

Melanie Avalon: Pun intended. Yes. [chuckles]  

Barry Conrad: But for example, can I just say I'm really annoyed with what you just said about the metabolism thing, because a lot of people are like, “Oh, bro, oh, if I was you and you had a good metabolism, I could eat that too,” because that makes me go, “I have to work really hard.” I can't just not exercise. Like, I have to still eat well. I eat well most of the time, but a lot of people just assume, “Oh, you're black and you have a good metabolism," or whatever. You know what I mean? 

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm so glad you said that. Even when I said metabolism, all of these billboard signs flashed in my head about all the assumptions people make about metabolism. I'm so glad that you brought that up to clarify. 

Barry Conrad: [laughs] I'm not calling you out, I'm just calling you out. Is that all right? 

Melanie Avalon: No, it's totally fine. Please, all the calling out. I agree. So, I will clarify. I think, yes, that happens so much, what you just said, where people will be like, "Oh, it's just their metabolism," or something. Wait, that's a line from something. It must be my metabolism or something–

Barry Conrad: Like a film. What is it? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's from a movie. Argh. It's going to come to me, in any case. So, I think people use that as a label all the time. And at the same time, there will be people who are not like what you're doing, who aren't exercising, aren't eating healthy and look good on the outside from that. And it probably is their metabolism but it doesn't mean that they're not healthy. 

Barry Conrad: Must be nice. 

Melanie Avalon: I get really worried about what's going on beneath the surface with that situation. So, I think it definitely goes both ways. I guess what I meant by the metabolism with you is that I think there could be another person in your situation eating the same thing, doing the same workouts, and for them, when they have those extra processed foods or whatever, it does, for some reason, land. It does have a negative effects physically. I think there might be some metabolism aspect [laughs] going on. 

Barry Conrad: You don't have to teeter around it. It's fine that you said that. I just had to bring it up because I always roll my eyes at especially like my bros. "Oh, bro, it's just your metabolism.” I'm like, "Can you not diminish my hard work? Thank you very much." 

Melanie Avalon: You work really hard, I will attest to that. 

Barry Conrad: I do think, though, I do think that. I mean, come on, let's be real. There has to be some sort of a genetic advantage, though, like exactly what you're saying, because someone else--

 Melanie Avalon: Genetic advantage. That’s a good phrase. 

Barry Conrad: Because some people could-- yeah, exactly. They could do the same thing, eat the same thing, do the same exercise, and not have the same result. So, you're right in that way. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. But it's not all your metabolism. You're doing the intermittent fasting, you're focusing on the protein, you're doing the exercise, and you're living a vibrant life. 

Barry Conrad: Do you think it could be effective like the up-day down-day thing as well? Because maybe, for example, I'll tell you so if I'm going to be on camera and I have some notice so maybe it's on Monday, I'll pretty much stick to very high protein and minimal carbs sort of thing. But then right after I film something, my ritual is like, I'll have a high carb meal, a celebratory feast. So, is that a metabolic boost caused from the up-day down-day situation? Do you think it could be that? 

Melanie Avalon: I bet that does help a lot. Yes. And we get questions about that a lot, like should you mix it up? Is it okay to do the same thing all the time? It's interesting because for me, I pretty much eat the same way all the time and it works for me. For some people, having that different, that up-day down-day or however it manifests, that actually is a key to them, for it working. Then for some people, I think it might just be an added benefit, but I bet that is very helpful. It makes sense to me. Especially from what we-- I feel like I'm being very casual. This is in the literature with [laughs] this type approach, because I think people will try to consciously do that as a pattern, but it's nice when you can just make it-- it's actually very inspiring, make it a part of your life and just do it on an on-call basis, like you said.  So, when you're going to be on camera a certain way and then when you're not, you can be a different way and then it's just like natural. 

Barry Conrad: It's actually clockwork at this point. It's not even something that I really-- I don't struggle with it. As soon as I know it's a work thing, my brain does this thing where it just switches and it just happens. Like, I don't have to go, “Oh, this is really hard.” It's just like, “Cool, I'm working.” Time to pull it in. And by pull it in, it means I know for my body, that's what works in terms of getting the results I want. But for someone else, they can eat all the bread, all the trinkets, all the pasta and look great. For me, if I have some bread, I'm just going to look puffy like tomorrow. And that's fine. 

Melanie Avalon: It's probably their metabolism. [laughs] Actually, okay, I have so many questions for you. Was intermittent fasting hard for you in the beginning, or was it easy or how was it when you first started? 

Barry Conrad: It was hard in the very beginning because I thought, how am I supposed to go without eating for like, 19 hours? Because I dove straight in. I didn't do 16. I just went to 19. And, yeah, it was tough, but I walked a lot and I used the walks to listen to your podcast. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my God. [laughs] 

Barry Conrad: And so that would kind of like, inspire me to keep going, keep going. But then, I would open my window with not the best food because I thought I should treat myself, “treat” fasting. But then that changed and you hear people say that a lot like, “Your taste buds change,” but it's actually for real. What you feel like eating over time does change because you pay attention to your body, what your body wants. But yeah, it was hard. It was so hard in the beginning. What about you? Was it easy or? 

Melanie Avalon:  I was doing low carb before, so I was already pretty fat adapted. Actually, I remember I was working on my friend's film set the next day, and I had decided to do it, and I was like, “I'm going to do this one meal a day thing.” This is going to be so hard. I remember I went to the set and normally at crafty I would eat all the snacks, and instead I just drink all the tea. 

Barry Conrad: That's real fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember thinking, “Oh, this is doable,” because I was going to do it for a week. And then it was just so amazing that I just never stopped. And that was a decade ago. I do remember thinking, though. I do remember thinking because sometimes I would go to sets and the craft station would have the most epic food ever. And I was like, this is just a waste of money. It's a waste of money for me personally because I could be eating all of this amazing free food and instead, I'm fasting. Oh, well, next time. 

Barry Conrad: That's the only thing about that, because on set, you have that FOMO like, “I've got to make the most of this thing,” but I'm the same as you. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was mostly FOMO financially, though, because I really had no money. And then it'd be like salmon, shrimp ice sculptures, and all this stuff. That's a true story. Once it had a shrimp ice sculpture. 

Barry Conrad: What do you mean? 

Melanie Avalon: At the craft food station, there was an ice sculpture with shrimp. I'm not making this up. 

Barry Conrad: You didn't have that? 

Melanie Avalon: No. [laughs] I was like, “This is such a waste of money right now.” 

Barry Conrad: That's hilarious and cool. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, but I would sometimes take food home, which you're not supposed to do, but I would. 

Barry Conrad: So, what you just will stuff it in your bag, casually? [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.

Barry Conrad: Do you have a photo of this shrimp situation, by the way? 

Melanie Avalon: Are you questioning me? [laughs] 

Barry Conrad: I want to see it. I'm so curious because it's funny and awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't. Actually, if I did, it was on a different phone. It was a while ago. It was on the set of-- I don't even remember. It was one of those live TV shows, like a studio audience. 

Barry Conrad: Oh, yeah, yeah, craft services. It's so good. 

Melanie Avalon: But it's also a problem, though, that's a reason fasting is so amazing, for it is just constant access to food. So, you mentioned this earlier, decision fatigue, the freedom you get from just not having to engage with that question of, “Am I going to have the snack? Am I not going to have the snack?" When it's just like a no, it's so freeing because you don't have to have that whole exhausting debate in your head, which is just very draining. 

Barry Conrad: I 100% agree. 

Melanie Avalon: Nobody wins. Because if you don't eat it, you don't get to eat it. And if you do eat it, you might feel bad about eating it. So literally nobody wins. 

Barry Conrad: Do you ever-- let me say this properly. Do you ever not cheat, but do you ever break your protocol, just say your bestie just came into town, surprised you, and she's like “Hey, let's go hang. I'm taking you out to dinner.” And in your head, you're like, “I was supposed to fast two more hours.” Would you ever open your window earlier? What's your view on that? Do you struggle with that? 

Melanie Avalon: This is such a great question and I'm so excited because it relates to a question I was going to ask you. So, everything is coming together in this moment [chuckles] because you mentioned earlier something about how I think you basically said that you will go to restaurants and you're not like super intense, religious. It has to be this way If life happens, that was the vibe I got from what you said earlier. I actually asked for questions, I didn't say who I was interviewing, but I asked for questions for how to do fasting if you're high achiever, career driven, socially, how to do fasting with that. We got a question from Joelle. She said, "What are ways to gracefully decline social food events at work, depending on the person, I don't always like to mention fasting.” So, I'm going to bring all this together into a question and a conversation, which is when these moments come up, Joelle said, where it's a social event at work, or like you just said, where a friend comes in town and it's a dinner. Do you decline? If so, how do you decline? Do you not, like, how do you act with that? So, for me to answer your question, if it's something where it's still in the dinner vicinity, like-- I eat really late. I don't even like saying how late it is. I'll eat at late 10:00. 

Barry Conrad: Oh, wow. 

Melanie Avalon Did you not know that? 

Barry Conrad: No judgment. Well, I mean, maybe I knew that, but I still had a reaction to that but also your sleeping situation is different too or so. 

Melanie Avalon: I sleep late too. Yeah, it's a normal pattern. It's just shifted. Everything's just shifted. So, typically I do eat late. I thought you knew that because Barry's in Australia. I didn't mention that yet. 

Barry Conrad: From Sydney, Australia. 

Melanie Avalon: Sydney. Although you're not from there. I learned this from Banter with BC that you moved there for your breakdancing group. 

Barry Conrad: Yeah, I was in a singing dancing break dancing crew. Yeah. We moved here from New Zealand. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you breakdance?

Barry Conrad: Let me loosely say I used to, but don't ask me to do a head spin now. I mean I could probably-- [laughs] but I used to be able to. 

Melanie Avalon: That's impressive. 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. What about you? Do you dance? 

Melanie Avalon: I wish I did. That's actually one of my-- I have very few regrets in life. Life is amazing. One of my few regrets that I have is that I didn't do dancing growing up. I just feel it would be so helpful for, A, your health, B, feeling comfortable in your body. 

Barry Conrad: It's not too late. You can do dance classes, as you can take.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Maybe. Maybe. 

Barry Conrad: Then when I come to Atlanta, we can go dancing and you don't have to hug the wall? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'll show you my skills. I'll show you my skills. I did in college. Did you go to school? College? 

Barry Conrad: I didn't, actually. No. 

Melanie Avalon: See, that's another inspiration thing. Okay, that's a whole tangent. I did, and when you like freshman year, you go and there's like it's great. Well, I guess it depends which school you go to. I went to USC, and there's all of these clubs and all of these things, and it's like, "Wow," for free. So, in freshman year I was like, "I'm going to sign up for everything." So, I signed up for fencing. That did not last very long. 

Barry Conrad: Fencing. [laughs] I can't picture that for some reason. 

Melanie Avalon: I think I would have done it longer. I can still. I got the muscle memory to do it, I think. When I realized you had to wear that that mask thing, I was like, "Hm-hm, hm-hm." [laughs] This is not for me. But the other thing I did was ballroom dancing, and so I think that would be-- that's something I think would be really, really fun. Do you ballroom dance? 

Barry Conrad: I can picture you ballroom dancing to a Taylor Swift song. Maybe All Too Well. 

Melanie Avalon: Argh. I have convinced Barry that All Too Well is a treasure. Well, I've convinced you that that it's talented. 

Barry Conrad: For the listeners out there, Melanie loves Taylor Swift, obviously, as you know if you follow her, and she convinced me to listen to the full 10-minute version, and I did it. I did what she said. And you know what? I liked it. It was good. 

Melanie Avalon: I was so happy. Especially he said, he was like, "I listened to it." And you took a while to tell me your thoughts, you built up. I was waiting with bated breath. I was like, "What if he doesn't like it? [gasps]" But yes, it's very good. All of that to say, okay, that's a whole-- What are we talking about? Break dancing. 

Barry Conrad: You eat really late, because of your sleep pattern, so you eat really late. How do we get into that? 

Melanie Avalon: Break dancing, Australia. Joelle wants to know how to gracefully decline social food events at work. I'm just going to bring it back to. 

Barry Conrad: Oh, you said if it's still in the dinner part of the day. Yeah 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, if it's still in the general dinner time, then I will definitely adjust accordingly. The problem is when you do eat so late and so much so late, it's hard to be hungry earlier. And I don't like eating when I'm not hungry, I will adjust. Basically, if it is yes socially, if it's a dinner, I will make the adjustments. If it's a lunch, no. Breakfast, no. I'll just go and not eat. Yes, I will just go and not eat.  And I want to encourage listeners, I think there's a lot of fear, and this speaks to Joelle's question about how do you decline, if that's your choice? There's a lot of fear about like, will I look weird? Will people judge me? She says she doesn't like to mention fasting, which I completely understand. Well, A, you start to realize that it doesn't have to be as big of a deal as you think it is, especially in large gatherings. 

So many people are just focused on themselves that they're probably paying less attention than you are to it if you're not eating. B, you can get away with a lot by just holding a drink, like holding water or something. C, you do you. You do what makes you feel good and don't do it for other people because of what they may or may not think. It's just my thoughts on the matter. And you don't have to say that you're fasting. I mean you could say you're fasting. You could say that for health reasons you're making certain choices, or you're just not hungry or you already ate, which is true, or you're going to eat later, which is also true. There's a lot of truth you can speak without making it a whole thing, I think. What are your thoughts? 

Barry Conrad: I think that's all exactly right. For me, I try to zoom out if something's happening that's special, I zoom out on the week and I go, "What am I doing most of the time?" I'm being consistent. I usually fast very consistently, make good choices, choices right for my body. So, if something comes up, it's not going to affect what my desired result is. So, it's like, fine, you have to go with-- for me, I go with moments because experiences only happen when they do. So, I'm not going to say, “Oh, sorry, I'm not going to eat.” If something's happening, I'll just have it. But if I'm focused on what I'm doing, I'll just say, “Oh, I've got plans, but thanks so much,” which I do. I've got plans to eat later, or I've got plans to do whatever. So, to what you said, it's not lying. You don't have to say, “Ah, sorry, I'm fasting,” and make it a big deal because it's only weird if you make it like a big issue. No one really cares. So, I just kind of say, “Oh, I've got plans, but thanks so much for inviting me,” or I'll be like, ‘Cool. See you there.” It's just really simple. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. And to that point, talking about how it's not as big of a deal to the person as we might think it is. If it is, because that happens too, where it is a big deal to them, it's often coming from their own stuff. It's not necessarily you. I don't think people need to change themselves to accommodate other people's stuff. Although, interestingly, something that happened with me historically, this was before fasting, but this is when I went low carb for the first time and my family was pretty much okay with my crazy stuff, but my mom was not really about it, in the beginning. She's great now. She's wonderful now, but in the beginning she was not. I remember one of the family get-togethers, my grandmother would always make-- Do they make in Australia or South Africa, refrigerator cake or ice box cake? 

Barry Conrad: I feel like we might call it something different, but I feel like we do. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like where you put the cookies and the whipped cream and you don't actually bake it. You put it in the refrigerator and it turns it into cake? 

Barry Conrad: I make that. It's banoffee pie. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, what was that word? 

Barry Conrad: Banoffee. So, B-A-N-O-F-F-E-E. It's like you set it in the fridge, right? You don't bake it. It's actually really good, Melanie. I'm really good at making it.

Melanie Avalon: Made from bananas. Oh, is it normally made from bananas?

Barry Conrad: You should slice bananas on top of it, but it's not made with that. It's condensed milk, crushed biscuit, cookie base for the crust. And then you pour the condensed milk in and it sets in the fridge, and it's delicious. Yeah, same, same. 

Melanie Avalon: It's a classic English dessert. Okay. So similar. Yeah, we have refrigerator cake, ice box pie, which is a similar concept. I remember my mom took me aside. She was like, “Melanie, are you going to eat the refrigerator cake at Thanksgiving?” I was like, “No.” And she was like, “But your grandmother worked so hard to make this cake, and it'll mean a lot to her if you eat it.” And I was like, “I'm sorry, I'm not going to eat it.” So, the story has a good ending. So, I went to the Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever it was, and I didn't eat it. My grandmother asked me why, and I told her that-- this was when I was doing paleo, I think. Oh, that's what it was. Yeah, when I first started doing paleo. And so, I told her that I was doing the paleo diet, and I was eating certain things, like whole food. 

And my grandmother got so excited, she was like, “That's the way we used to eat. That's the way it should be.” She was all about it, and I was like, see, this is such a good example of there's so many narratives and so many things going in different people's heads. You got to just do you, just do you. 

Barry Conrad:  I think that's an awesome story. That's so good. 

Melanie Avalon: A little tip. So, I read this, I think from one of the guests that I interviewed.  They said that the issue with not accepting food, like, in that situation where it's from a family or a friend and they made something, it's an offer of love, oftentimes to you. So, the key is to decline politely and maybe say why and then give them an opportunity to show love some other way in that moment to you. So, you can say, “I'm so sorry, I'm following this diet. I can't eat that right now, but I would love if you would like make me some tea.” You give them an opportunity for them to show love some other way and then that can smooth things over a little bit. 

Barry Conrad: That's pretty evolved of you to have that perspective. A lot of people wouldn't maybe have the confidence to say that in the moment. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, let it marinate for people and maybe next time it comes up they can work on it. And I will say the more you do it, the easier it gets. Another question, speaking of eating all the things. So, here's two questions and they sort of go together, because I'm curious-- actually no, before I ask this, when you started intermittent fasting, did you see a big change in your body composition or what happened with that? 

Barry Conrad: Okay, this is a big thing for me because I'm not going to talk about age or anything like that, but what I'm going to say is, back in the day, I'll say in my early 20s, I feel like I look better now than before. And that's not like a flex, it just is what it is. My face looks different, my body looks different. It's so strange. And I feel like I eat more now if I had to spread it out in the day. I eat so much more food, so much more variety of food, and my body looks just different. It's like a different body type. I'm not as bloated looking. I'll have to send you a photo as well, but it's crazy. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I want to see your pictures. 

Barry Conrad: Yeah, it’s really, I don't understand how that works, but it's pretty magical what fasting can do with the body composition. So, it definitely did change. And people like, "How are you looking younger now?" Last night I went to an event and someone was like, “You look younger.” I get that so much. And that sounds really up myself to say, but that's one of the most common things people say. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll say it. You look younger. 

Barry Conrad: [laughs] Yeah. What about you? Do you get the same thing? 

Melanie Avalon: I do. Yeah, I do. I get that a lot. I get that I look younger than before, even. It's like something clicks when you find and I think different diets work for different people. So, when you find the food choices that really work for you, and especially when you find the fasting pattern that works for you, that together, I think can just be magic because then your body is given the fuel it needs to do what it needs to do. It's given the fasting it's giving the time it needs to detox and repair and recover. I think it's like antiaging in a dietary protocol. 

Barry Conrad: Your skin as well, your skin changes, like for real.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. So, you notice that? I notice that big time. 

Barry Conrad: Skin, and even like nails, even just like they grow really quickly. I'm like, “Man, slow down.” 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah.  I noticed that too. I'm getting flashbacks now. I used to have such brittle nails. 

Barry Conrad: What? They'd break like a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And what's interesting is I was probably eating way more calorie wise back then. But I think there's such a difference when you're eating, like, when you give your body the food that's actually nutritious and you're supporting its ability to utilize that food. I think it manifests in your body. So, the question from Jill.  Hi, Jill. [chuckles] She wanted to know, “Can you optimize for fat loss and muscle building at the same time while doing IF?"  So, did you find that you were able to do both of those at the same time, or do you have to do one or the other? 

Barry Conrad: I don't do the whole gym bro dirty bulking and then I cut, I don't do that. My gym protocol is very simple. I work out for 25 minutes, which sounds like a lie, but I do. I just get in there real intense, lift with dumbbells, push-ups, and then the rest is just really all food and fasting. I do think that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time because fasting promotes human growth hormone and it doesn't-- contrary to what people think. Fasting is not going to eat away your muscle because it's protective and your body's smarter than that. It's not going to kill your muscle off first if you haven't eaten in 20 hours. It doesn't work that way. Whereas in the gym culture, guys are like, “Oh no, you got to have your protein shake, like straight after your session, bro.”  I'm like, “Hmm, do you?”

Melanie Avalon: Fact check that. [giggles] 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. So, to answer the question, Jill, you can do both at the same time, I believe when you're in the fat burning state and you're fat adapted and your body is preferentially using fat for fuel, you absolutely can do that. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. And I've experienced that as well, definitely. Then Deanne wanted to know, muscle building and needing to eat more protein. She says, “How do I eat more protein while fasting?” She said she's been doing one meal a day for two years and it's so hard to eat more often. Do I really need to--" well, we talked about this earlier, but how do you get all of the protein in your one meal a day eating pattern? 

Barry Conrad: I eat a lot of protein. I'm just going to say, for example, I might have 500 grams, this is like just a simple meal, but like 500 grams of ground beef with sometimes six eggs thrown into that and then just like a lot of protein. And I can eat volumes of food. So, that's not-- I don't struggle to get protein in, but I feel satiated so much more when I do high protein. My body just recognizes that. Whereas if I eat more carbs, I can tend to maybe overeat more than what I need to. What about you? 

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because I get this question so much. I empathize and I want to find solutions. It's just not my experience, I just love eating the pounds of proteins. I just love it, personally. So, it's like what I crave. I'm prepping right now to interview Dr. Joel Kahn. I don't know if you are familiar with him. He's really big in the vegan sphere. I'm just so hungry reading his book. It’s all talking [chuckles] about-- and more power to people who can do veganism, and it supports their body. I would just be so hungry on that. I just feel so good and satiated and full, but I also can eat a lot of it in one sitting. So, like, for Dan's question how to eat more protein, I don't even know what to say because for me, I just crave it so much. Like, it's what I want to eat. 

I would say maybe what you're eating, it can go both ways. Because you just mentioned right now how adding carbs can actually make you hungrier, make you want to eat more. At the same time, I think if you're focusing on protein, for some people, it might have maybe more like adding fats. They might get too satiated. So, I think a potential solution here would be to focus on protein as the opener and the foundation so that you don't fill up on other things beforehand, because lot of people in the low carb world would do really high fat, so maybe going lower fat so that you can have more of the protein. 

Barry Conrad: What I also did, I didn't forget to add is I'd start with 200 grams because I love salmon, smoked salmon. So, I'll have 200 grams of that with some freshly squeezed lemon juice over the top of that, snack on that while I cook my chicken or beef, lots of it. And then I'll always add eggs to that. Sometimes I'll have dozen eggs a day. I don't know if that's right, but it works for me. And I just can't get enough of protein, and that really works for my body. It really does. 

Melanie Avalon: That's good. I like the egg thing, sneaking in the eggs. For me, I would take it one step further. I would start with the salmon, have the meat, and then have more salmon as dessert. 

Barry Conrad: That's so wild. I've heard Melanie say this to all the listeners out there. She's like, “I have salmon for my dessert.” I'm like, "What?" But you have to let the kitchen know.

Melanie Avalon: You have to let the kitchen know in advance. People need to know that. I got to spread that awareness. I'm going to start, like, a trend of savory desserts, but let the kitchen know in advance. Oh, which that's something I learned from your Banter with BC that you got fired from your-- what job was it in the restaurant? 

Barry Conrad: I don't know if they call it that in America, Kitchen Hand, which is, like, you're just in the kitchen, maybe food prepping or just whatever they need, washing dishes, slicing up squid, whatever it is, just kitchen hand. I got fired. 

Melanie Avalon: What did you do?

Barry Conrad:  I was going to auditions too much, and it would just keep clashing. So, it wasn't something wrong I did, but they were like,” Barry, you're just never here. This is not working out. You're fired.” 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I also learned you used to be a chain smoker. How did you quit that? 

Barry Conrad: You're just calling me out this whole episode, aren't you? 

Melanie Avalon: I think it can be very inspiring for people because I can't even imagine-- I mean, that must be really hard to stop. 

Barry Conrad: I would literally light another cigarette while I was still smoking one. That sounds hard to believe if people know me. 

Melanie Avalon: So, literally, the definition of wow. 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: When you started, did it immediately become an addiction once you started? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. I don't want to label myself, but I feel like I go all in with whatever I do. So, I really did become addictive. It started more socially like to be cool, whatever, but then I really enjoyed it, and it took me three times to quit, actually. 

Melanie Avalon: It took you three times to quit? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah, I tried three times, I should say. 

Melanie Avalon:  Oh, you tried, okay. 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: How did you finally--? I'm just curious if it was a physical thing, did you use nicotine patches, or was it a mental paradigm shift? Was it environmental change? 

Barry Conrad: Definitely didn't use patches. There was a wakeup call because someone said to me, “Bro, like, your voice, don't you care about that?” And that was like, "Okay, you know what? I do value what I have, and that doesn't align with that, so that's not going to be helpful." And also, my mom's side of the family smoke a lot. No judgment at all. Like, you do you but it's just like, I didn't want to-- Yeah. It's just not worth it. And now I can't stand it, really. Especially, kissing a smoker. It's not ideal, being around them, their breath, the house, everything. 

Melanie Avalon: How long did it take for that, like, the smell in your clothes and your environment, did it go away pretty quickly, or did you linger? 

Barry Conrad: It may be kind of go as well. "Wow, do I smell like that?" I didn't like it once I quit, it was like, it's not for me, but in saying that, it doesn't mean that I haven't had an occasional here or there, like, whatever cigarette, but I'm not a smoker anymore. 

Melanie Avalon: I think that's so empowering what you said, though, and I think it's a really nice approach people can take to anything they're struggling with. It sounds like it took a value focus and you were running towards something, rather than being, "I can't do this thing," and that being the end goal, it's like, "I'm running towards what I do value." I think that's really inspiring. 

Barry Conrad: I think that's with every decision I have, I kind of go now, more so now, does this line up with what I actually say that I want or what I say that I believe that I want? And if it doesn't, then you just have to eliminate it for yourself, for my peace of mind. It's about exactly what you said, run towards your values and whatever is around that sort of, need to support that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So much easier to do that than to try not to do something. 

Barry Conrad: What about you? Do you smoke or have you smoked? 

Melanie Avalon: I think I've smoked a cigarette, like, three times in my life, maybe, and each time-- it's so interesting, and this could be a whole tangent. I'm really fascinated by how with different compounds, so drugs, smoking, alcohol, whatever it may be, how certain things really vibe with certain people and others don't. People struggle with different things and not others. So, for me, with smoking, it was interesting experience, but it wasn't anything profound. And then the next day, I was, like, coughing and my throat felt scratchy. I was like, “Oh, this is not my cup of tea.” So, I do wear nicotine patches. 

Barry Conrad: Why? 

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. [laughs]  

Barry Conrad: That's random. [laughs] You say that's so random. 

Melanie Avalon: People don't usually see them because I wear them on my ab, but every now and then when I'm doing cryotherapy, if it's like a new person, they'll see it. And I've had comments, “Oh, congratulations, good job.” I'm like, "No, no, no I don't smoke. [laughs] This is not--"  Nicotine actually has a lot of health benefits, so it's preventative of Parkinson's. My friend James Clement, who wrote a book called The Switch, which is all about the AMPK pathway activated by things like calorie restriction and fasting and dieting and longevity, not activated by longevity. The book is about longevity. And he talks about this really long-lived population that actually smokes, and not that smoking is good, I'm not advocating for smoking, but he thinks that possibly the nicotine has something to do with that. It makes me feel good. And what I like about it is, I don't have that addictive issue with it, so I could just not wear the patch and be fine. I'm not worried about it. But, yeah, in the biohacking sphere, there's like a whole nicotine thing.

Barry Conrad: Interesting. It was just more the timing of what you said, you were just talking, you're like, “I wear nicotine patches.” [laughs] I just wasn't expecting that. 

Melanie Avalon: I do. And friends can look this up, they can fact check this about nicotine and its health benefits. I will say, if people want to experiment with it, I feel like we're going to get listener feedback about this because I've talked about this before on the show and got emails. 

Barry Conrad: Good, feedback is good. It's good.  

Melanie Avalon: Feedback is good. So no, please. I do welcome the feedback. If people want to experiment with it, do not go high dose in the beginning because you will get sick, I'm just telling you. So, start small and stay small. That's a tangent. Some questions to end on because I know that you have another call coming up. 

Barry Conrad: So annoying. I'm sorry. 

Melanie Avalon: This has been so amazing. I literally can't wait to air this and get people's thoughts on everything. Okay, there's two questions I want to ask. Rapid fire. One is, you are into some of the biohacking stuff, like the red light and stuff like that. What's one of your favorite biohacking things that you do? 

Barry Conrad: I've got a Joovv. I've got one of those mini Joovvs. So, my ritual at night after I get home and everything's done, my wind down situation is I'll be listening to something whilst doing 10 minutes of holding my Joovv on my face. That's what I do. 

Melanie Avalon: On your face? Okay. Have you only done your face? Do you use it anywhere else? 

Barry Conrad: I've used it on muscles as well like if I've had aches and pains. And it seems to work, so I'm hoping that works, because I think it does. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, we are all about the red-light therapy. You've got to meet Vanessa because she has her Tone LUX devices. She's hardcore about the red light. Oh, and I think she just had an update where she's shipping to Australia. So, let me see what I can do there. If you would like a larger device. I hope Vanessa might be down with this. And then something else. I thought, in honor of your Banter with BC, the way that you started off oftentimes, not every episode, you left out one episode. 

Barry Conrad: Good pick. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I watched all of your episodes. 

Barry Conrad: That's because it got lost. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it did. I was wondering, I was like, "Did he forget?" Oh, wait. Oh, I have a question. Are those extras in the background? 

Barry Conrad: They're actually not, but that's a good question. A couple of episodes when there's people there, that's a double show day. So, the restaurant kindly opens early for us before it actually opens. They do the kitchen and everything, but then sometimes when they do open, people come in and they're just sitting in the background staring and trying to get a look. But they're not extras. 

Melanie Avalon: I was dying to know. I was like, "Did he hire extras? Are those real people?" I need to know. I know you have to go. Do you want to play really quickly? 

Barry Conrad: Maybe I should 

Melanie Avalon: Go.

Barry Conrad:  No, I'll hire the extras. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs] And mic drop. Okay, bye. It's been real.  [laughs] Oh, man. I do know you have to go in five minutes. Do you want to do two truths and a lie? I don't know if we can do that in five minutes, though. 

Barry Conrad: Okay, you go, you hit me with yours first. Go ahead. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I have mine because I planned this. Okay, ready? Number one, I was accepted into the USC School of Theater without submitting an application. Two, when I was three, I informed my mother that Santa Claus did not exist because, “There was no way a man could fly around the world with reindeer and bring presents to people.” Three, when I was on Millionaire Matchmaker, the millionaire did not pick me, but then afterwards, he sought me out and DM'd me and said that he wanted to pick me, but the producers would not let him and would I like to go on a date with him, to which I declined. 

Barry Conrad: I feel like the first and the third statements are the truths. Am I right? 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. I actually informed my mother that the Easter Bunny did not exist because there was no way a rabbit could go around giving candy to people. 

Barry Conrad: Yes, I got it right. I'm so excited. 

Melanie Avalon: And she was like, "Just don't tell your friends." How about you? I'm impressed. Good job. You win. 

Barry Conrad: It's just the vibe. I'm dyslexic. I don't have any tattoos. My very first acting experience performance was a school production of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I'm going to go with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Barry Conrad:  What's the other truth.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, as the lie, but now I feel like it's the truth. 

Barry Conrad: Oh. Argh.

Melanie Avalon:  What? 

Barry Conrad: I don't know. I just was cramping up, so just had to stretch. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I'm so upset. Okay, wait, so wait, was I right?  Wait.

Barry Conrad: So, you're saying that's the lie. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like Millionaire Matchmaker, final answer. I don't know. Yes.

Barry Conrad: You are incorrect. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. 

Barry Conrad: The lie is I am not dyslexic. 

Melanie Avalon:  You just came up with that so quickly. I should have thought about that more. Who did you play? Were you Aslan? 

Barry Conrad: I played Edward. 

Melanie Avalon: Edward? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. With the-- what is it? Turkish Delight? 

Barry Conrad: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: You ate that Turkish delight. 

Barry Conrad: [laughs] I actually developed obsession with Turkish Delight after that role. 

Melanie Avalon: Really? See. Bring it all full circle, acting. 

Barry Conrad: Full circle, method acting. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, well, I know you have to go. This has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I just think it's so cool what you're doing. And, oh, if listeners are curious. So, you are an ambassador for a suicide prevention charity called R U OK? You're involved with We Are Lonely, a six-part reality podcast series which is super cool. Your upcoming TV series-- Okay, is it actually called Erotic Series or is that the working title. 

Barry Conrad: Erotic Stories, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, oh, your thing says Erotic series. Okay, so Erotic Stories. So, look for Barry there. Thank you so much for being here. This was amazing. Hopefully we can talk again in the future. 

Barry Conrad: I'd love that. Thank you so much, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: Thanks, Barry. Bye.

Barry Conrad: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 20

Episode 331: Night Shift Work, Quality Sleep During Daylight, Melatonin, Red Light Exposure, Sugar Free Kids, Greenwashing, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 325 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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tone device: introducing the brand new second generation tone device! if you practice regular if, tre, prolonged fasting and or low carb/keto, your body makes a metabolic switch to primarily burning fat for fuel! being metabolically flexible means you can readily tap into stored fat for energy. with the tone device you simply breathe into the device when fasting and receive an instant reading on your breath ketones. you may test an unlimited amount of times, with one investment in a tone. get on the exclusive vip list to be notified when the 2nd generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Salmon For 3 Months Plus $20 Off Your First Box!

AVALONX MAGNESIUM NIGHTCAP: Get 25% Off For Life By Signing Up For Subscription Service By August 21st, Or Get 10% Off avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

TONE DEVICE: Get On The Exclusive VIP List To Be Notified When The 2nd Generation Is Available To Order And Receive The Launch Discount At Tonedevice.Com!

MELANIE AVALON’S CLOSET: More Clothes For You, Less Waste For The Planet  Get A FREE MONTH At melanieavalonscloset.com!

Listener Q&A: Kaila - My questions are regarding night shift work

BON CHARGE: Go To boncharge.com And Use Coupon Code IFPODCAST To Save 15%.

Controlled light exposure and intermittent fasting as treatment strategies for metabolic syndrome and gut microbiome dysregulation in night shift workers 

Sleep quality among shift-work nurses: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Effects of 2-hour nighttime nap on melatonin concentration and alertness during 12-hour simulated night work

Effects of melatonin administration on daytime sleep after simulated night shift work

Melatonin treatment of pediatric residents for adaptation to night shift work 

CHILIPAD: Go To chilitechnology.com And Use The Code MA25 For 25% Off The Chilipad, Or The Code MA15 For 15% Off Their Ooler! 

SLEEP REMEDY: Go To Melanieavalon.Com/Sleepremedy And Use The Code MELANIEAVALON For 10% Off!!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 331 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 331 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I am doing awesome. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have an exciting announcement about something I'm very excited about. 

Vanessa Spina: You tell.

Melanie Avalon: Well, two things. So, two things. One is this is actually and people can listen to the ad in the episode to get the full details today. If you're listening today, is the last time that you can get a for life subscription, grandfathered in for 25% off for life for my Magnesium Nightcap, which is magnesium threonate, a special type of magnesium that crosses the blood brain barrier, helps with memory, mood, sleep, relaxation. I take it every single night. And basically, when we launch-- I'm so excited for you to launch your products, Vanessa, and experience this whole subscription thing. I don't want to assume that you're going to do it the way I do it. When we launch the subscriptions, we do this fun thing where if you opt-in during the launch period, you get grandfathered into this massive discount for life, and as long as you keep the subscription, you keep that discount. So, it's super fun. 

And by the way, you can always pause your subscription at any time, so it's not like you're hardcore committing for all of the commitment-phobic people. So, yeah. So, for that, just go to avalonx.us to sign up. And if you're listening after the 21st sad day, [chuckles] you can still get a discount with a subscription, but that 25% off will have passed. So hopefully you were on my email list and got the updates or the text updates. So that's avalonx.us/emaillist and texting AvalonX to 877-8618-318, which also gets you a 20% off coupon code. Vanessa, do you text updates for people? 

Vanessa Spina: Ahh, I'm working on some, but I mostly do email. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's like a newer thing for me. I really-- I like it. 

Vanessa Spina: I got really excited about it a while back, but I think because I'm in Europe, I just haven't been taking full advantage of it. And also, I don't like asking people for too much personal info. [chuckles] I'm just like, "Let's stick to email." But I know it's great. 

Melanie Avalon: The way I see it is I figure it's completely opt-in. I'm not forcing people, but it's really nice because you can do it all. And I'm sure you saw this. You do it all online through websites. But here's the second announcement that I'm so, so excited about. So excited about this. Okay, so, friends, as you know, I love clothing. I love wearing black dresses. I love wearing new black dresses all the time. I've been haunted by this for so long because I know it's not sustainable and not great for the planet that I buy so many new clothes all the time. Like it's just bad. It's one of the habits that I really do feel bad about. So now, I have a little bit of a solution that I'm very excited. Are you familiar with companies, Vanessa, like, Rent the Runway? 

Vanessa Spina: I've definitely heard of it, and I think it's great to be eco-conscious, and there's so much waste in fast fashion. So, I definitely think they're great services. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I agree. [chuckles] So it's not Rent the Runway. It's something I like even better. It's called melanieavalonscloset.com. I'm just so excited about this. So, the way it works, by the way, friends, if you sign up, you get the first month free, unlimited clothes. Unlimited clothes. So, the way it works, you sign up, you get an account, and they have different plans. So, like, two pieces of clothing at a time, four, six, eight, I think. Although, I have a little secret that I'll share about how you can get more than that. So, say you sign up for the two pieces at a time, then they have hundreds of brands, maybe not hundreds. There's probably, like, 100 brands on the website, including my favorite BCBG. And it's just this revolving amazing collection of the newest clothes, all the colors, all the styles, and it's unlimited. So, for one monthly cost, which, honestly, I am not making this up, is less than what a lot of people would pay on, like, one dress. You get unlimited clothes. 

So, you look through everything that you like, you pick what you want, they send the clothes to you, wear them, wear them as long as you want. And then when you want new ones, you send them back, they send you more. And it's just a revolving basis. It's so easy to send back. So, when they send you the clothing, it comes already with a return, pre-stamped, prepaid envelope. So, when you're done, you just stick the clothes in the bag, drop it off at the post office. You don't even have to go to this talk to somebody at the counter. You can just drop it in the box, and then they'll send you the new one. And then that's the little hack. So, if you do the two-piece option, the way it works is you have an account and so you have your virtual closet online of all the things you're thinking of ordering and the things that are coming. So, the second they send it, you click return already, even though you don't have it yet. And they'll go ahead and send you two more. It's a little hack. So don't tell anybody that I told you guys that. So, if you get the two plan, you actually can have four pieces of clothing at one time. But just as a-- well, something really important about it.

My one reservation was, I was looking at the site and it was going on and on about how clean it is and like, dry cleaning. And I was like, "Dry cleaning, huh? That's a problem," [chuckles] because of toxins we don't want to have all of that. So, I emailed them because there wasn't really any information about what they use. So, I emailed them and so, they are professionally dry cleaned, but they only use detergents that are free from dyes and scents. They don't use any harsh compounds or chemicals, and they use low temperature cycles. So, I was so thrilled to read that that it's not like this super toxic mesh of washing that they're doing. So, you can feel good about that. Friends, I'm just so obsessed. It's been really helpful for me recently because as you guys know, my whole wardrobe is basically black. Like, it's all black dresses. And I really want to go see the Barbie movie. Have you seen Barbie, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I'm really, really excited to go see it.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. And I was like, "What am I going to wear?" Because I don't have any-- I used to have, like, all pink clothing, but I left that phase of my life. So, [chuckles] I was like, "What am I going to wear? Oh, wait, let me go to melanieavalonscloset.com and check." And they had so many cute, incredible pink dresses and outfits. And I'm kind of convinced that maybe that's Barbie infiltrating into like the culture.

Vanessa Spina: Barbiecore. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. So, I ordered quite a few options. And so now I'm going to have my outfit for when I go see Barbie. And I didn't have to buy anything new. I know I'm just going to wear it once, but it's super sustainable. I can wear it then I send it back. And then I can go back to my black dresses ordering from them. I'm so excited. Again, you can get a free full month, so you have literally nothing to lose, like free clothes for a month, friends, melanieavalonscloset.com. And then after that, it's super, super affordable. I'm very excited. If this is something that you're interested in, Vanessa, I can connect you to them because I just think it's so cool.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's super exciting. It probably won't work for me because I'm in Europe. But anyway, right now [laughs] I'm just wearing a lot of Lululemon Align leggings because those are the good ones for pregnancy. [laughs] They stretch, I wore them the entire time up until like 42 weeks last time, and they are so buttery soft. I pretty much just live in these and like, big dresses. Although I'm not at that point yet, we're only around 20 weeks. But yeah, I don't think I'm going to be wearing a [laughs] lot of exciting clothing until postpartum maybe next summer, it'll be something for me to look into.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I can't do leggings.

Vanessa Spina: No.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: I'm wearing them today, actually, because we've had a little bit of cooler weather. And normally I'm wearing shorts right now, but, yeah, shorts and dresses or like shorts with dresses sometimes. But I'm wearing them today because we've had some cooler days and I'm like, "This is what fall and winter are going to be like for me, because I'm just going to be in leggings all the time." But, yeah, I find them super comfortable. I'm also, like a big yoga person, and so it's kind of infiltrated all my clothing is like the athleisure.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wait, I have comments. One, yeah, I can't do pants or leggings. It's so [laughs] constricting. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I like that feeling.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I shudder.

Vanessa Spina: I like really tight clothing.

Melanie Avalon: I can do tight. I like tight dresses.

Vanessa Spina: Hmm-hm. Similar. But, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: But I don't even like it. I tolerate it because I like the way it looks aesthetically. Like I said, I went and saw Wicked recently. I got the most incredible gorgeous gown, and it was like a corset, and I was corseted up. My date was like-- Okay, [laughs] so it's like 100 degrees here in Atlanta. No, it's not 100 degrees. It's like in the 90s and so I'm going to theater at 06:00 and he texted and was like, "Do you want to meet outside theater? We can go in together." And I was like, "No, [laughs] I will not be doing that. I'll meet you inside." [laughs] It was a hard no. You got to have your boundaries. Do you remember the phase, it was very brief, it was like a passing moment in time of wearing dresses over jeans. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, for sure. And dresses over pants. And dresses over pants that were like boot cut, which are back in now, like flared. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, flared jeans. 

Vanessa Spina: I loved flared pants. And I had a pair of black guest pants that were flared. I just love them so much. And, yeah, I would wear dresses on top. And I thought it was so cute, and I still think it's really cute. Actually, a lot of people in Czech for some reason in Prague wear skirts or dresses over their pants. So, either they're still in that time or they're like in the future, because sometimes Europe is a little bit ahead of the game usually with fashion, so it may be making a comeback [laughs] that’s what I mean.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I feel like it was like a brief at least I'm remembering it. I feel like it was like a briefer period of time, but I was like all about it. This is really not important, but the pant loathing, I literally-- I tolerate it now. There was a period of time where I would not, like as a child, would not, I hated jeans. Hated pants, hated them. They were the worst thing in all of existence. And then I had a paradigm shift moment where I was like, "I can wear these. I can do this." And then I got really excited because I'd been longingly looking at my peers wearing jeans and was like, "What is it like to wear jeans?" And so, then I had this moment where I tolerated it and started wearing them again. And that's when I would try those styles. I wanted to explain how I know about wearing things over pants when I said I don't wear pants. But now we're back to no pants.

Vanessa Spina: We are so similar. I've totally gone through, like I remember for years, going through years where I just didn't wear jeans at all. And people were like, "Why don't you wear jeans?" "I don't know. I just don't really wear pants."

Melanie Avalon: Did you not like how they felt? Or did you just not like--

Vanessa Spina: I don't know what it was. But I remember distinctly that when I was a little girl, I would go through phases where I would tell my mom, like, "I'm only wearing dresses." And then I'd be like, "I'm only wearing pants." [laughs] So it's something that started at a really young age. Now I kind of incorporate all of it. And for a while, just like you, I also wore a black dress every day, I had like 12 of them. And it was my uniform. I posted about it. I have a uniform because Albert Einstein.

Melanie Avalon: Decision fatigue.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. All these different people saved their decision-making ability by not having to choose what to wear. And so, I was like, "I'm just going to wear a uniform." But now I like color, something shifted in me. We talked about this before, maybe since Luca. I don't know what is, but I am embracing color more [laughs] and all kinds of different styles and things that there was a couple years maybe right before I had Luca, where I was just wearing the black dress every day. And I like switching it up now. And I don't know what causes these shifts or what, but I do know that it started really young for me that I would have those phases.

Melanie Avalon: I love that so much. And appropriately enough, every time I post, like, a non-black dress, everybody gets so excited on Instagram. And I'm like, "Oh, man." So that's what happened with Wicked is like, I wore a green dress because I saw it twice. I wore it the first time, and I was going to wear a black dress the second time, but the response to the green was so supportive and overwhelming. I was like, "Okay, I got to do another green dress."

Vanessa Spina: I love green. Like, emerald green, forest green. It's one of my favorite colors to wear. Like, I've got a bunch of yoga pants in that color and tops, and it's really flattering. I think maybe with blonde; it's really flattering.

Melanie Avalon: So that's the thing. And that's where I was going with this. The reason I have to wear black, the main reason is because of the hair, because it contrasts a blonde, and so it makes your blonde look like fuller. And I'm convinced I only have good hair days with black dresses. And so last night, my pre bed contemplation what I was contemplating-- do they do Halloween? We talked about this. Do they do Halloween in Prague? 

Vanessa Spina: It's a mix. Yeah, they're doing it more and more now.

Melanie Avalon: Like, dress up and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, good. So, last night, I was like, "What am I going to be for Halloween this year?" And I was, like, thinking of all the different blondes and what outfits they wear, because I really want to be Princess Odette from this one princess, but she wears a white dress. I can't wear a white dress.

Vanessa Spina: White is really flattering too on blonde, I find.

Melanie Avalon: It's like the same color as the hair, so you don't get the contrast. So, it makes your hair look like less. 

Vanessa Spina: No, I think white is, like, one of the most flattering colors on me, anyway. I don't know. It might be the same for you. You got to try it out. White is very flattering on people. Think about wedding dresses. Women look their best. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's a problem. It's another reason I can't get married. 

Vanessa Spina: You can do a different color. You could do a black one or a green one. 

Melanie Avalon: I probably would. I might go the Sleeping Beauty route or, like, get a wig and do something crazy. 

Vanessa Spina: That's fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what you would want to be? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm trying to think what I did last year. A lot of times I just go for Cats [laughs] because it's so easy. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my God. It's like Mean Girls. Have you seen Mean Girls? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I don't remember that reference, but I just make the nose and the whiskers, and I put cat ears on, and I'm good, and I'm in a black dress, and I'm like, "I'm good to go." Last year we did--

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait, you could be Catwoman. You could wear the tight bodysuit.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Well, last year we did a cat theme. We went to a Halloween party here with some friends, and so I got Pete a full lion costume, which I was so proud of him because he fully owned it, fully wore it. Luca was a little lion, and I did a cheetah thing, so I had like cheetah ears and a cheetah dress. And it was so fun and cute and, yeah, it was great for the party, but their place is not that far from us. It's only like a couple of tram stops away. So, we just take the stroller, get on the tram, then you don't have to do the whole car parking, everything. And so many people were staring at us because it's like people are doing it more and more here now, but it's not fully, it's they're being influenced more and more, but still everyone was staring at us, seriously. And Pete was just like owning it. He was in the full lion. And I think he had a beer in his hand as we went down there too. So, it was kind of funny picture, but, yeah, we were cat family, a little pride.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. I think the way to my heart is like, a man who would dress up like that and own it.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I was so impressed. He's pretty good with stuff like that. And I think it helps that it was for Luca, you know what I mean? Like we rely in like family, cat family. So, I think that made it like it made him want to do it because I don't know if he would have done it, but we did Cleopatra one year. I was Cleopatra, and he did like a-- it was like not Caesar, but he was like a Egyptian God or something like that. And we went out downtown Colorado. That one was fun. We've done a few fun couple costumes. Yeah. I revert to the cat family a lot because it's like the easiest thing to throw together. If you have cat ears in your closet and you have a black eyeliner, it's like you're done.

Melanie Avalon: You're good. It's amazing.

Vanessa Spina: And always looks cute. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm feeling Catwoman for you.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay.

Melanie Avalon: Because she wears that bodysuit which you're like all about. 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Latex. I need to get latex. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I would like to be Cinderella before the dress. The issue is she wears her hair up, and I don't have the confidence to do that.

Vanessa Spina: I almost did Cinderella instead of the cat thing, I was like, "Okay, Pete, you be Prince Charming, I'll be Cinderella." And, yeah, I didn't like how the hair was up either. Pete was just not into the Prince Charming costume, he was no. [laughs] So we went with the lions. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: It's blue. I love that color. Blue too.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. So, like, literally last night I was laying there, I was like, "Can I be Cinderella with my hair down?" 

Vanessa Spina: You should be a princess, like at Disney. A lot of people do that or you should have been maybe when you were in California. I feel that would have suited you well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, at Disney.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, oh. Okay, sorry. [chuckles] I was like in life? 

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: At the grocery store.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not tall enough. I'm only tall enough for-- trust me I have gone down-- I went down that rabbit hole. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, do you have to be a certain height? They have a height requirement?

Melanie Avalon: I could have only been Alice or Tinker Bell.

Vanessa Spina: Aww, Tink. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Who wears her hair up.

Vanessa Spina: Alice. Okay, I could see that too, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think they have to be-- All the Disney people are going to fact check me on this. It's either five-- I think you're tall enough.

Vanessa Spina: I love that you went down this route. I'm like, "This would be the perfect thing for you." Of course, you must have thought of it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. No, I definitely did. Oh, okay. So, oh-- I could be Mulan. Wait-- I do not know if this is accurate. This says you can be 5'3" to 5'7" for Cinderella. Well, I'm not sure, I just know when I looked up-- [laughs] I just know back in the day, I felt like I was not the correct height for the main princesses.

Vanessa Spina: You got Halloween. So, you know--

Melanie Avalon: And last night I was, like, reflecting with gratitude. I was, like, contemplating Halloween. I was like, "How wonderful is it that in our world we have this day where we come together as adults and we all agree to dress up and pretend to be something." Like, "How cool is that?" It's really cool. 

Vanessa Spina: When I was little, it was my favorite holiday because of all the candy. [laughs] Yeah, I loved Halloween. So, I still have to figure out what we're going to do with Luca because he doesn't eat sugar. I make him-- we avoid sugar as much as possible, especially the first two years. So, yeah. I don't know, it's tricky. [laughs] Trick or treat. It's very tricky.

Melanie Avalon: It is tricky. Has he had a moment where he had a conventional candy?

Vanessa Spina: No. And actually last night, Pete randomly pulled out some of my dark chocolate with stevia. I don't know why, but he was eating some on the couch and I was like, "You know Luca was asking to have some." And I've given him that before at birthday parties when other kids are having the cake like, I'll give him some Lily's Chocolates and he loves it because he's having a treat with everyone else, he's like bonding. If I haven't made something like I did for his birthday, I'll make things that are naturally sweetened or whatever. But he has never had a standard candy with sugar or anything. And I really felt strongly about that, especially the first few years of protecting them from sugar because there's a nurse in Sweden, I don't know if you've ever heard of her, called Bitten Jonsson, and she is an educator on addiction. And she gave some really amazing seminars. We were both speaking at this conference, Low Carb Universe Conference in Spain together, and she talked about how the sugar when you're little, if you're consuming a lot of sugar, which tons of kids do, it creates this pathway in the brain that later on can make people more susceptible to other addictions.

She's a nurse as well and an educator, and she really does amazing work. But she said if you at least try to stay away from it for the first couple of years, then it won't have the same effect. So, she showed all this amazing research how that pathway would get lit up by sugar, it would then sort of lay the groundwork for alcohol addictions or every kind of addiction because that pathway would be sort of like set up from a really young age.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I definitely believe that. And, see, that's something I wish more parents knew, because maybe they're-- and again, not that we ever really want to have our kids exposed in large amounts of these foods, but I can see how it would be really overwhelming for new parents, like, "Oh, I'm not going to be able to enforce this on my child for a long time." But knowing that, well, at least those first few years where you really are making all of the decisions and they're like, "You are making the decisions," and you can do that. 

Vanessa Spina: I've been really impressed since having Luca and being in a lot of mom communities and groups here how many people also don't give their kids sugar and they're not doing any kind of similar lifestyle to me, not even close. But it's like they know. I'll just meet people randomly and they'll be like, "Oh, I made banana bread, but don't worry, it has no sugar." Like, "No sugar for the kids." So, I'm like, "Okay." This is permeated to larger society. It's not just in the low-carb or paleo or keto or whatever health space. It seems to be a thing that a lot of people know. I can't say that's the case for everyone, but, yeah, I think it's really important information. So, it's the same with screen time. There's a certain period of time, the first couple of years where they're really the most susceptible to those kinds of things.

Melanie Avalon: And to that point, just a little quick PSA about greenwashing. The other night, I wanted to talk about this on the podcast, so this is a perfect segue to it. I was looking at, I think I've talked about this before on this show. I don't eat any of these foods. I like reading about them. It's kind of like how people watching cooking shows and stuff. It makes me sound-- I say it so hesitantly because it makes me sound crazy. Like, "Oh, she reads about the food that she doesn't eat." That's very disordered sounding, but it's because I have so much nostalgia and memory around all these things. So, I like looking at pictures of different cakes and stuff, but I don't actually eat any of them. And sometimes I'll look at like, "Oh, how would I make this?" I'll look up recipes for-- you were talking about making it with stevia, like how would I make it with more healthy ingredients? So, in any case, I came across this brand. I love looking at unicorn themed foods and magical looking foods.

So, I found this brand, and they had a unicorn themed snack thing. And the name of the brand is very encouraging and motivating, and it's about good things and the name of the brand, it's a celebrity brand. And then I was looking at this unicorn bar and all of the things it said, and it said, like, "Full serving of fruits and vegetables, 8 grams of sugar or less, only 80 calories, allergy tested, so it's great for your kids as a lunch item." I'm like, "Oh, this is so great." Like, fruits and vegetables, unicorns' sprinkles. And then I looked at the ingredients. [chuckles] Literally, these are the ingredients. One, rice and then in parentheses, which is rice, brown sugar, salt. Okay, so we already have sugar as the second ingredient. Second ingredient-- because that was in parentheses. Second actual ingredient, glucose syrup. Okay, so another sugar, third ingredient, sugar. Fourth ingredient, shortening, which is palm oil and canola oil. Fifth ingredient, sprinkle, which includes sugar. [laughs] I was like, "Oh, my gosh. It is literally rice, sugar, salt, sugar, sugar, fat, fat, sugar, fat, fat, cornstarch colors." That is the ingredient list.

Vanessa Spina: It makes me so enraged. Like, Scott and I were just talking about that on the last episode, about how many products will say certain things on the front. But then when you check the ingredients, it's like a complete opposite of what they're saying on the front of the package, but that people trust companies to not lie to them. So, they're like, "Oh, if you say it's this, I'll believe you," but you really have to look at the ingredients, because I would say, like, 7 or 8 times out of 10, it's nothing like what they say on the front. And it's so crazy to me, and it makes me so infuriated and the number of people who are eating things that they don't realize because they trust what the front packaging says. And, yeah, we were just talking about this on the last episode, the episode of the podcast that he was on, because it's wild. Like, what people get away with.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy because literally, the front says fruit and veggies in every bite. Full serving of vegetables. And I'm looking at the ingredients, I'm like, "Where are the vegetables?"

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, where are they hiding? 

Melanie Avalon: Where? Is it the rice? 

Vanessa Spina: Make it make sense. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: So, like, way down in the list, after natural flavor, listeners are probably familiar, but it goes in order of concentration. So, when you're, like, at the end, you're like, barely anything there. So, way at the end, it has fruit and vegetable blend as almost the last ingredient. And then it lists, like, apple extract, onion extract. Is that the fruit and veggies? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's like a sprinkling. [laughs] It's really upsetting. 

Melanie Avalon: It's mind blowing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. We were just talking about that and how it'll say avocado oil mayo and then you read the ingredients and the first three are like canola oil, this oil, that oil. Or like we were talking about with protein powder, it'll say whey protein isolate. And you turn it around, the main and first ingredient is whey protein concentrate and then a bunch of other fillers. And then, oh, yeah, we sprinkled it a little Whey Protein Isolate, but we're calling it Whey Protein Isolate on the front. And it's crazy, you just have to advocate for yourself. You have to read the ingredients if you're buying anything that has packaging, you really have to because for some reason, you can say a whole bunch of stuff on the front and then actually have completely different ingredients. 

Melanie Avalon: It's such a problem. Was it Gabrielle's book? Gabrielle Lyon's book? Have you finished reading her book? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't yet. No.

Melanie Avalon: I think it was her-- yeah, it is her book. I learned something in her book that I did not know, which was about the regulation differences between foods like meat, dairy, eggs, like whole foods basically compared to packaged foods. And so, it's like two different industries. And so basically the packaged food people can make all of these health claims and they can make anti claims against the meat and dairy industry and even like produce, the whole food side of things, they can't make claims, at least not to that extent.

Vanessa Spina: It's such a crazy double standard.

Melanie Avalon: It's like so crazy. It's like the actual [laughs] healthy foods, they can't really say they're healthy-- Oh, the reason behind it, now it's coming back to me. The reason behind it is because it's set up differently for the competition. This is so fascinating because the meat and dairy industry is not brand driven and I'm probably not telling this exactly the way it is, but this is the general vibe because they're not like-- I mean, there are brands, but there's not like one brand that's trying to be the thing. They work as a collective. So, the meat industry will promote the meat industry rather than promote one brand and the dairy industry promotes-- that's why you have the vague Got Milk campaign rather than for one milk brand. So that's why they have these laws. It's so that one "producer" can't compete with another producer. It's well intentioned, it's so that they all support each other. But the way it manifests is they can't make claims, like health claims. Isn't that so interesting? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's so crazy. And it kind of reminds me of the double standard with research. Like if you are doing non sponsored, non-corporate sponsored research, you have to report everything. But then if you're doing corporately sponsored research, like if a fast-food company or a big brand that makes sugar drinks is sponsoring a study, they can choose whether to publish or not publish the findings if the findings don't line up with what they want to sell. Whereas if it's non-sponsored, non-corporate, then you have to publish everything. [chuckles] They can hide things. They can suppress things. The double standards make me so angry. [laughs] That's why different forms like long form media, like podcasts, make me so excited. And I know it's the same for you because we can actually get into these topics more deeply. 

We can talk about what does the research actually say beyond the clickbait headline, what's actually happening here. And the long form media is the only way to really get into these topics in a deep way, because so much content is just like for clicks, and clickbait and everything and it just drives these messages that certain companies and brands want to get across. Podcasting is like, to me, one of the antidotes to all the misinformation out there, especially when you can really dive deep and you can talk to experts who can help illuminate things and people like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, she's been become such an amazing advocate for protein and also just like shedding light on topics that are difficult to talk about sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much and I think it's really inspiring because I do get concerned and you referenced it just now, but the attention span of us modern humans, we have such a small attention span and can only look at really quick things. I think it's in favor of humanity that people still listen to podcasts and will listen to a long episode. It gives me faith in humanity. 

Vanessa Spina: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: On that note, 40 minutes into our show. [laughs] Shall we answer some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to. And it's been good just like catching up with you a little bit. I feel like we needed to do that as well. But, yeah, I'm excited to dig into some questions. 

Melanie Avalon: So, would you like to read our question from Kayla? 

Vanessa Spina: So, our first question is from Kayla Party and she says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa. Thank you both for all of the research and time you both give to the health and wellness space. I have learned so much from you both. My questions are regarding night shift work. I have been working night shift as a nurse for the last six years. I also had my three babies." Wow. Congratulations. "Ages five years to four months during this time. I'm getting ready to go back to work after my most recent baby and would love any tips you might have for getting sleep during the day. My room is very dark. I use white noise and earplugs and take magnesium and melatonin prior. I know this is not ideal in general and hope to get a day shift position soon, but any tips in the meantime would be great. Also, since I am sleeping during the days, would using a red light be beneficial? Oh, and I know everyone is talking about morning light right now, but is this helpful before I go to sleep or should I avoid light before sleep? Should I wait to get a lot of daylight in the afternoon when I wake would that have the same effect? Thank you so much. Kayla."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kayla. Thank you so much for your question. And like Vanessa said, congratulations on your babies. And also thank you for what you do with your night shift work just as a gratitude moment for all of the night shift workers out there because it's necessary for our world and think about how much happens with night shift workers. And I don't even like saying it because I don't like putting negative spin in people's heads about things. But there's so many studies on the negative health effects of night shift work, it's pretty shocking all the conditions it's linked to, especially metabolic dysfunction. So, thank you to the night shift workers who do those jobs for us and experience the potential physical negative health effects from that. So, to answer your question, Kayla, I did a lot of research on this. Okay, to start things off, I want to say there's a lot of studies on night shift work and how bad it is for your sleep. 

That said, I encourage you above all else to not let that saturate your mindset because that's pretty much the worst thing you can do to not sleep is to be stressed about not sleeping. That is just going to make it worse. So, I encourage you and all night shift workers to have an empowered mindset about what can you do to take charge of your sleep. And maybe even on the flip side, think about all the people who don't sleep well anyways and they're not night shift working. You as a night shift worker can be so in tune with your sleep and really get a pattern that works for you that A, I think you can combat it and get decent sleep. I'm going to talk about different ways. And then B, you can maintain these sleep skills for life. So, empowerment moment for you. So, we have circadian rhythms in our body. We have clocks all throughout our body that determine our rhythms, and in general, they are informed by the rotation of the Earth. So, we are in line with this 24 hours-ish rotation of the Earth. And for the normal person, that's going to be determined by typical light and dark cycles as it is outside. And then we live in accordance with that and that also relates to our eating, which can affect it. 

There are these things called zeitgebers, which I think is such a fun word and it's basically all of the different cues that inform the circadian rhythm. So again, light is a very prominent one, but also things like temperature affects it, eating affects it. So, I'm going to talk about how you can maybe use food and fasting to help with all of this. When that gets disrupted, it's called chronodisruption and it's just not good for you [chuckles] health wise. And that's what can happen with shift work. So there have been a lot of different ways that they've looked at for people to combat the issues with shift work, which is there are a few different issues. One, it messes up your sleep when you do get it during the daylight hours. And then B, people while they're working there are issues with having fatigue or lack of alertness because it's during a time when they should be sleeping. So, one strategy, and this is to enhance alertness while you're in the shift. And this is something that I realize is probably not practical for most people, but maybe some people. The research does suggest that if you can have a nap break, again, I don't even know how this would be possible for people in a shift work situation. But if you can have a single nap break for two hours in the middle of your shift, that actually helps with alertness in the second part of the shift. So that is an option that I realize is not very accessible. 

So, beyond that, the sleeping around, it basically what you need to do is you need to find the pattern that works for you and it's going to be different for different people. What's probably important, like finding the pattern that works and then sticking to it consistently while you're doing the night shift. So, for some people, what that is, there's three basic options. 

One option is you get done from your shift, you immediately go to bed, you get your eight hours, you wake up and then you're awake for a bit and then you go into work. That's one option. Second option is you get back, you stay up, so you keep going with your "day." And then you go to bed like eight hours before your shift is going to start again. And then you wake up and then go to your shift, so that's the second option. Third option, some people come back, sleep, wake up, do stuff during the day, go back to sleep and then go to their shift. And so again, different strategies but experiment and try to find the one that works for you and then stick to it because what you want to do, you want to give your new circadian rhythm, a rhythm that works so you're not constantly changing all the time because that's what's even worse for your health, your metabolic health, your sleep, all the things, find the one that works for you in the shift. You want to actually-- I know it's during the night, but you actually want to stimulate daytime because you want to tell your body that this is like daytime, this is when I'm awake. So, this is actually when you would want to be exposed to blue light and things like that. But then when you're getting to the end of your shift and you're going to go into your wind down mode, that's when you want to start being very intense with having a pattern that will tell your body that it's going to be, "sleeping time," "night," even though it's not. 

So, Kayla, you say you're going back to work, so I'm assuming you're going in somewhere for this shift. I would start the-- depending on what you're doing, if you decide that you want to sleep immediately after the shift, I would start that wind-down routine, like on the way back. So, get a pair of blue light blocking glasses. Definitely get a pair of blue light blocking glasses. And when you are going back, put them on-- especially because you're going to be combating the daylight and you need to actually be telling your body to be winding down. So blue light blocking glasses, we love Bon Charge. I love bond charge. You can go to boncharge.com and the coupon code IFPODCAST will get you a discount. So definitely get some of those. Have a very intense wind-down routine that is telling your body that it's time to go to sleep. And I was reading about this, this is interesting. I've experienced this. I have a very intense wind-down routine. I do it every single night. It's multifactored. I use all Joovv red light therapy devices to create red light in my apartment. I have blue light blocking glasses on, I have the screens that block the red light from my devices. I go to YouTube and they have these different frequency wind down tracks. I use one called Love Frequency and it's so calming. I put that on and that's like my wind-down routine. And then I actually have my evening meal, which helps me further wind down. And I can initiate this wind down pattern pretty much at any time and will fall asleep. 

So even if I'm going to bed later that night or going to bed earlier, I can start the routine and then I will pretty much be good to go at a certain time later. And the thing that I learned that lined up with that is that it's not so much the amount of time spent in each phase of your wind down, it's the order. It's the order and doing that order. So, if you can create a wind-down routine that includes a shower, maybe like journaling, having your blue light blocking glasses, maybe eating, I'll talk about that. And even if it's like crunched because you get back later than normal, as long as you're implementing that order, you can teach your brain to wind down. And so that's what I meant earlier about you can get some pretty cool sleep skills that you're going to be able to maintain for life. 

As far as melatonin supplementation so the cool thing about melatonin, and I know this is debated and some people will disagree with me on this. I think it's a really cool tool in your arsenal for something like this because melatonin basically tells your brain that it is time to go to sleep. It doesn't help you stay asleep. So, it's not super hardcore going to benefit you with the sleep at length and quality, but it's going to help with that initiation of like we are now shutting down, which is hard to do when it's daylight outside. So that's why I think melatonin can be a great supplement for this and it's cleared pretty rapidly after release, so you don't have to worry so much about it having long term lasting negative effects. You can really use it as like a tool is my point. And I did find studies on this so I will put links to them in the show notes. I found studies on melatonin supplementation in night workers. 

And this is weird, I'm not really sure what's going on here, but in one study, they found that melatonin for night shift workers, that it helped them with their daytime sleep, but only on the first day that they used it, which that doesn't sound very helpful. I just have questions, because that's very odd to me. But they did find that it helped more people who demonstrated difficulty sleeping, they found melatonin more helpful, and of importance, they didn't have any hangover effects from melatonin administration. And then the conclusion was they said that although melatonin can help night workers obtain more sleep during the day, they're still likely to face difficulties working at night because of circadian rhythm misalignment. So, melatonin might help you sleep during the day but that doesn't get rid of the issues of the night shift work in general. There was another study I found, and this was also in night shift workers, they found a 20% reduction in circadian misalignment when people used exogenous melatonin. And this was all chronotypes. So, this was cool because they looked at the different chronotypes. So basically, people who are like night people versus morning people, they found melatonin for all of them helped 20% with the circadian issues. So, I would use melatonin, I would use it before you have your sleep period. 

And then on the food side of things, I actually think if you can find a pattern that works for you that using fasting and your meal is a great way to help create the rhythm that you want to have. And what I mean by that is we see there's a lot of studies with jetlag and fasting and using fasting with travel. And then you go and you eat, like, basically, you travel while fasted. And then when you get to your new location, you eat your meal in timing with the meal of that new location. And that helps sort of like reset your rhythm. I think that you could use this for night shift work. So basically, creating a pattern where, and again, it's going to depend what type of fasting you do and what meal works for you. But for me, I sleep really well after eating, that's what tells me it's time to sleep. So, if I was doing night shift work, what I would do, is I would do the shift, I would come back, I would eat, and I would use that meal as a way to tell my body that we're going to bed. 

I have not been a night shift worker, but I did spend six months doing background on a lot of movies and television shows. And we would have night shoots, which is basically like night shift work. And when we would do that, I would use my fasting and my eating window to deal with it. So basically, I would get back during the day from a night shift and I would eat my dinner [chuckles] because I've been doing intermittent fasting one meal a day. So, I would still eat my big dinner and then I would just crash and it kind of convinced my body that was like my normal night. And then I would wake up and then go to the night shoot. So, if you can find a fasting and eating pattern that kind of helps and train the rhythm that you want, I think that could be a very powerful tool. And then also just any other modalities that you can implement to help with your sleep. So, there was a 2020 review on night shift work and using aromatherapy, and they did conclude that aromatherapy likely has benefits for sleep with night shift work. So that's something to consider if there's like an essential oil that works for you. I know for me lavender has a very calming effect. I like using that. I would definitely get my Magnesium Nightcap. Shout out, today's the last day that you can get a subscription. 

Again, that's a magnesium threonate that crosses the blood brain barrier and helps with relaxation, rest, sleep and mood. So that's at avalonx.us, you can get a 25% off for life subscription right now. If it's after that, you can use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON for 10% off. And then your actual sleep environment, it sounds like Kayla, you're doing all the things. Very dark room is very important, white noise, earplugs. You take magnesium. If you're not taking the Magnesium Nightcap, definitely get that one. You're taking the melatonin, temperature is important you want a cool room. So, if you can turn down the AC, if you can get a chilling mattress, I love chilly sleep, their OOLER. It's a game changer for me for sleeping. That's something to consider. I do have a code for them. I think this is the code, but I might have to double check and put in the show notes. I think it's MA25 for 25% off the Cube and MA15 for 15% off the OOLER. But again, I will confirm and put the correct codes in the show notes. So that's something to consider. 

Oh, and then one last thing. I was reading as part of your wind-down routine. So, people often will talk about journaling and things like that. It's been shown that it's more helpful instead of journaling about what you did that day to make a worry list or a to-do list. So have a list. I know I've had Dr. Kirk Parsley on my show multiple times. He talks about having this worry list, which is where right before bed, he swears that it's a game changer for all of his patients. You write down everything that you want to worry about. So then when you wake up, if you can't sleep because you have worries or you wake up with worries, you just think, "Well, they're on the worry list, so I don't have to worry about them right now. I can worry about them tomorrow." And also writing a to-do list. So, studies have shown writing a to-do list actually can help with falling asleep, because then you know that everything for tomorrow you have on your list. I do also really like Dr. Parsley's Sleep Remedy. The audience loves that one. That's amazing for helping fall asleep. It has all of the ingredients your brain naturally needs to fall asleep without pharmaceuticals. So that's at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy.com with the coupon code MELANIEAVALONE. And then I know she has questions about red light. Did you want to comment on any [laughs] of that, Vanessa? That was a lot. 

Vanessa Spina: So amazing. That was one of the most thorough answers I've ever heard [laughs] on any podcast for any question. It was absolutely brilliant. I mean you-- like, that is a guide. I can't tell you how many times I get questions about night shift, and I'm just like, again, I feel the same way. So appreciative of our night shift workers. They do so much for us, not at risk of their health, but they do so much for us while potentially compromising their future health. And the fact that you just provided this game, I think you should have an eBook or something on this. [laughs] It's so helpful. I'm sure that anyone listening who does night shift that'll be so helpful for them. You researched it so much, you provided so many tips. I think you hit just about everything. I think there was a little question about getting morning light. And, yes, it is very popular right now to get morning light. I'm a huge fan of morning light because of the hormonal cascades when certain wavelengths, especially UVA light in the morning are detected. But I think, just like you were thinking, it's probably going to work against you to have morning light signaling that it is morning and time to start your day when you're about to go to sleep. So, I would just do what you said, which is like sleep, and then get up and get as much daylight as you can and consider that your morning light, because you're not going to be getting those frequencies of midday, you'll be getting the later afternoon sun, and I think that's fine. 

Now, red light tends to be really beneficial for people at sunrise and sunset. So, if I were you, I would create your own sunrise when you wake up and do red light therapy, either in ambient mode or do an actual red light therapy session on your body, maybe, but on your face. Have all that melanopsin in your skin and your eyes detect that red light and you'll set it up as though it is sunrise for you. Some people recommend doing it at sunset as well. I would just do it at sunrise for you, which your sunrise would be when you wake up in the afternoon. So just like, go into your bathroom or whichever room or your bedroom and just do some red light therapy like first thing. 

I in the morning, especially in the winter time when it's still dark out. I get up, and I usually take Luca to the bath, and I put the red light, I put my Tone LUX Sapphire on, and it just illuminates the room, and it's kind of shining in our direction, and it gives our bodies that signal that it is sunrise, even though we're not getting that outside. And a lot of times I'm up so early that we do get some natural sunrise just by going outside because I like to go outside with him in the morning. If we don't, I just turn on the red light panel in the bathroom while I'm either showering or Luca's having his bath and I'm kind of doing my morning routine. So, I think it would be an amazing way to set up your own circadian clock with that. I guess you could call it artificial [laughs] sunrise. But it is the same wavelengths that you'd be getting at sunrise when that red light is so predominant. 

So, I love that you thought of that as a potential tool, as a potential therapeutic intervention to use. So, I hope that you let us know how all this goes. Melanie gave so many incredible tips and suggestions there and let us know if you implement any of them and how it's going for you, because I think it's just a question that so many people have and there are so many night shift workers I know that listen to both of our podcasts and this podcast as well. So this is really, really helpful information. I want to give you, like, a standing ovation on your answer. It was so great. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: No, you're so kind. I learned so much. I didn't realize there was all these different approaches and studies on these different approaches to night shift work. Everything that you just said, yeah, I agree so much, like, hack the light. [chuckles] It's like biohacking. I would definitely get those light blocking glasses, and like Vanessa said and I said, when you're coming back from the like, avoid the morning light, like you wear the glasses and then once you get in, get your red light device and turn it on to create that evening feel in your apartment or your house. And then I love the idea of Vanessa to-- again when you wake up using the red light for the morning, like the morning vibe, I love it. 

I did find one study, one last study, and I hadn't experienced this before. They gave snippets of the study and then make you buy it. So, it was such a tease. It has all these little paragraphs, and then it's just like, dot, dot, dot. And I'm like, [chuckles] "I can't read the rest of it." But it was called "Controlled light exposure and intermittent fasting as treatment strategies for metabolic syndrome and gut microbiome dysregulation in night shift workers." 

So, I really want to read the whole thing, but the snippets that I got from it was basically that they do think that using intermittent fasting can be a way to combat the metabolic syndrome issues of night shift work. And it might be how it affects the gut microbiome, which is super cool. Yeah, so like Vanessa said, Kayla, definitely let us know how it goes and what you learn. And just to end on a good note about it, I really hope you can feel empowered about taking charge of your sleep and gaining all these awesome sleep skills rather than being super stressed about it, because that's not going to help. 

Vanessa Spina: I love that point. It's the mindset is so powerful.

Melanie Avalon: And it feels super cool. I really do mean that about my wind-down routine with my meal, and everything is so intense that I really feel confident that I could go most places and implement my routine and probably fall asleep. 

Vanessa Spina: It's so funny because as you were saying that, I was like, "I've always wondered, what her wind-down routine?" Because sometimes we'll be texting and you're like, "I'm about to wind down or I'm winding down," and I'm like, "Okay, I feel like this is like a thing, the winding-down." And at some point, we need to talk about it because I want to know what your winding-down routine is, but I can tell it's something that you're super intentional about, and I love that. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, just to further clarify really quickly, I do all those things with the light and the sound, and I'm still doing work and blue light blocking glasses, but then when I'm really winding down, I stop texting people. So, I stop all social interactions because that tells that's something I probably should have added earlier that can be stimulating to you. Like when you're sleeping, you're not talking to people. I stop all social interactions, and then that's when I enter my meal period, and that's when I start really eating a lot. 

Vanessa Spina: So, your wind down is before you have your main meal. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like leading up to it, drinking some wine, doing some work, got the light going. And then when I actually start eating, that's when I cut off communication with people and it's just like me time. I don't check email. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean I put my phone, I plug my phone in and leave it in the kitchen so that I'm not having it at the table or anything like that. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have it, but I'm just like reading books on it. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. That makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And that's part of my wind down too is like, I have to read something. It's work, but it really tells my brain that I'm going to bed. And that's why I meant earlier about the order of things. Even if I get back super late, I do all the things. I still read a little bit of a book. I still do everything. Oh, and this is one last thing to keep in mind, just how powerful food can be with your circadian rhythm. Think about the fact that yes, light is there and it tells you when to go to bed and when to wake up. If you're really, really hungry, you will probably not be able to sleep. And on the flip side, it could be the middle of the day and you ate a huge massive meal and you need a nap. So, food can have a really intense effect on your rhythm and I think we can use that to our advantage. On that note,- 

Vanessa Spina: Love it. 

Melanie Avalon: -if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Also, join my Facebook group IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life. I ask them there for questions, so definitely comment on those posts. And also, if you have any questions about anything, it's a great community to join and talk about all the things. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that's all the things. Anything from you Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait for your eBook to be out because I need know make copies available for all the night shift workers who contact me and ask about what they can do to hack the night shift. So, yeah, let us know [laughs] when your eBook is built. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I will make a guide. 

Vanessa Spina: I think it would be amazing. There are so many night shift workers and people who, unfortunately, they would love to get a day shift at some point. They're hopeful that they will be able to, but again, they're making those sacrifices for the rest of us, as you so beautifully pointed out. And I think, yeah, I mean, I know you're doing so many things, but maybe just something to think about. 

Melanie Avalon: I actually might do that. I could get the transcript of this and I could hire somebody to throw it into something and then I could just design it a little bit. 

Vanessa Spina: Totally. That would be fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, look at you inspiring me. 

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I think it would be amazing. But, yeah, I had so much fun with you, as usual. And, yeah, looking forward to the next one and catching you next week. 

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you then. Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Aug 13

Episode 330: Pregnancy, Fertility, Red Light, Indoor Air Quality, Animal Fat, Cholesterol, Cortisol, Coffee, Leptin, Insulin, Fat Burning, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 330 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: sunshine - Is just coffee, first thing in the morning, okay?

Listener Q&A: Sunny - I have the same question re: clean fast with coffee. Is it a stressor?

Coffee inhibits the reactivation of glucocorticoids by 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1: A glucocorticoid connection in the anti-diabetic action of coffee?

The acute effects of coffee consumption on blood glucose and it’s relationship with serum cortisol and insulin in females

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% Off At melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 330 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 330 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I am doing awesome. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I am good. We were just saying it's been a while since we've talked. It's been quite a while because you were traveling and things came up, but here we are. So, we're excited.

Vanessa Spina: So excited to be back here with you. I've been looking forward to it, as always and yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling energized and [laughs] ready to go.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I have so many things to talk about. I have one random question for you, though. I listened to your beautiful episode announcing your pregnancy on your podcast, which was really special to listen to and hear your backstory and everything that you've gone through, and congratulations again. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. This is it.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, have we talked about it? 

Vanessa Spina: No, this is it like, officially sharing it on this podcast that yeah, I'm pregnant again, and super, super excited about it. And when this episode drops, we'll be at 21 weeks. And the day that this is coming out, we're doing it at 21 weeks. We have the big ultrasound, the anatomy scan, and yeah, it's been so exciting. And the baby's due date is December 25th, which is absolutely hilarious. He's going to hate his birthday. I mean, he or she is going to hate their birthday. [laughs] Yeah, we're just so over the moon, so excited. But thank you for the kind words about it, and I've been excited to share it on this podcast too.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that was a complete fail. I totally forgot that we hadn't-- I would have done [laughs] that differently, but we've talked about it so much and I listened to your episode. Okay, friends, that was a big announcement. [laughs] It just happened. Oh, man. Because I was going to ask you the most random question about it, but first, I'm going to focus on the moment. Yes, I am so excited for you. I'm living vicariously through you because I think, like we've talked about, I don't really anticipate ever having children. I mean, I won't say never. 

Vanessa Spina: I used to say the same thing, girl. And here I am like, baby number two coming so yeah, you never know. 

Melanie Avalon: This is true. But in the meantime, [laughs] while I'm not anticipating it, I'm just living vicariously through you because I feel like we would approach it very similarly, like the pregnancy experience. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Probably very similarly. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I'm just so happy for you. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm still going to ask my really random question because I was listening to your episode. We can put a link to it in the show notes where you talk in detail about your whole experience thus far. What do you think causes food aversions in pregnancy, especially things like meat, because you think with meat that it's like the most nutrient dense thing. But you were talking about how in your first pregnancy you had meat aversions and you were hoping that you don't get them this time around.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It's so funny because I've talked to so many friends about this, especially people who are in the paleo space, who are in the keto or carnivore space. Why do you think that is? Because it obviously makes life a little trickier if you're mostly a meat eater and suddenly you are having meat aversions. I had aversions to steak, which is the most common one of all my friends and other moms who are similarly inclined lifestyle and diet wise. This time I haven't had it so far. And the predominant theory is that because of potential pathogens in like, for example, steak that is not fully cooked, because the risk is high from that it's almost safer to just avoid it. I think that it's probably a good theory. I also think it could have to do with other things like what your iron status is, because this time I was slightly anemic in the first trimester.

I actually have to check on how that's going, but I sort of ramped up my consumption of beef, especially because it has so much bioavailable heme iron in it and I wanted to kind of compensate for that a little bit. And I haven't had any meat aversions. So, I'm wondering because my theory was that maybe it has something to do with how many nutrients you need from that certain protein. And maybe if last time I was eating so much beef already going into the pregnancy that maybe I hit some kind of limit where my body was like, "Okay, we have enough of these nutrients, so we're going to have you crave chicken." Because that's what I was craving, [chuckles] it was chicken. So, I was making chicken fajitas like every night. But this time so far, I haven't had it at all. And for me, last time it started in the second trimester, so I may still be proven wrong, but I think this time because I was slightly anemic that my body needs the iron. And this time I'm not having any aversions. Like, we just had steak for dinner like an hour ago. So definitely not having any aversions. But when you have the aversions, it's really intense because a lot of people you can't smell it, you can't be around it. It's a pretty powerful instinct. There're some really interesting theories about it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wow. I have some follow-up thoughts and questions. Okay, so one that was going to be my two theories was the pathogens. My caveat about the pathogens is I find it interesting that we would have evolved enough for our bodies to know that we eat red meat more likely raw, but we typically cook other meats. Like, it's interesting that it would-- if that's the reasoning, it's interesting that our body would distinguish, "Oh, red meat is what we typically eat raw." But maybe and then two, I was going to say the iron, but I was thinking maybe it was because of avoiding nutrient overload, like iron and then the tangent from iron that you are going to like and you might be familiar with this. You probably are. So yesterday, actually two stories here. One, I interviewed a guest yesterday and have you ever lost an episode or like, have you ever recorded and you weren't recording? 

Vanessa Spina: It's like the most brutal, painful thing ever. [laughs] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's so awful. Like, we recorded like 30 minutes, and then his mic messed up. So, we started again and we recorded another, like, 40 minutes. I realized that second 40 minutes, I never hit start. Like, I never hit record. We were like, "We're just going to put a pin in this." [laughs] We're going to come back later. Because it's so defeating. It's like-- 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you can't do it the third time. 

Melanie Avalon: Like, I can't. But in any case, it was an episode on red light therapy and specifically, like, laser implementation because LEDs as well, but also the laser modality. This man is so knowledgeable. His name is Forrest Smith. He has a company called Kineon. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I got to interview him. 

Melanie Avalon: He has a modular device that you actually strap to your body. So, it's for targeted treatment of my knee issues and it's really great. And he's honestly, I think he's the most knowledgeable person I've ever talked to about red light, which is saying a lot. Speaking of iron and hemoglobin, did you know that red light interacts with the photoreceptors on our hemoglobin? 

Vanessa Spina: No, I didn't. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh. So let me tell you. [laughs] So apparently there're photoreceptors on our hemoglobin. The receptors on hemoglobin attach to both oxygen and nitrous oxide. And when red light interacts with these photoreceptors, it makes it drop the nitrous oxide, which goes into the bloodstream, then that has systemic health benefits. And then the hemoglobin can take in more oxygen. So, it increases the oxygen carrying potential of your hemoglobin. So, it's like a double whammy.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing because a lot of the benefits from red light therapy are attributed to the nitric oxide. So that's a really interesting sort of, like, other side to it that I didn't realize that was happening. I'm going to be diving deep into that, probably late into the night.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It was so exciting. He was, like, blowing my mind in so many ways. He also talked about a study where they studied athletes with ACL injuries. And those athletes, if you have an intense injury like that, you're more likely to have cardiovascular tissue inflammation later in life. And it's because, literally, the inflammation from the injury travels to the cardiac tissue.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, wow. That's crazy. The body just is so incredibly miraculous and amazing. It just never ceases to amaze me. All the new things we're learning too about it.

Melanie Avalon: It's just crazy. And he was talking about that because he was saying, if you have an acute injury, how important it is to treat it with red light to help mitigate things like that. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, the red light is amazing. The whole reason why I really got into red light and wanted to create my own panels was because of my fertility journey and I wanted to really optimize our chances of conceiving. And I was going through all of these studies on red light that especially Japan and Denmark have been doing because they've been facing really low fertility rates. So, they've been sponsoring a lot of research on it. And the one in Japan is interesting, it had really good results, but the one in Denmark was actually incredible. And they had all these women who had been completely resistant to getting pregnant, and they did these red light therapy sessions with a laser, speaking of lasers, with something, a device called the GigaLaser. And they had such high rates of pregnancy, caring to full term and one woman was 50. 

And when I was reading it, it just gave me so much encouragement because I had a loss as I mentioned on the episode. And it's not that I suddenly thought like, "Oh, well, now I'm not fertile, but I was starting to feel like maybe I need some extra help or boost." And so, I used the frequency, the wavelengths of light from that study to create the Sapphire panel. So, it has four wavelengths in it. And the Sapphire, which I use and have been using every day, I use it specifically on my abdomen because a fascinating thing about our ovaries is it's, as you well know, like, one of the areas we have the most density of mitochondria along with the heart and brain. And so, in the Danish study, they used the GigaLaser over the abdomen and they hit them with, like the number of joules was like 20,000 or something. It was like a crazy number with this laser. And all these women who were resistant to getting pregnant, got pregnant, had full-term pregnancies, and it was just like, so exciting. 

I was like, this makes me want to create a panel that is specifically for this for myself. [laughs] I do think it probably boosted my fertility because the biggest thing as women get older is egg quality declines, and it's actually because of the mitochondria. And there's a number of things that can happen in addition to the mitochondria, just like losing steam or getting damaged over time. There's also a loss of CoQ10, which is one of the electron acceptors in the electron transport chain. So, I started doing the red light to support the mitochondria there in that area, and then also taking CoQ10. And yeah, it made me really passionate. So much so that I was like, [laughs] "I have to create my own line of red light therapy panels." But it's just like my personal story. But I also know that a lot of women deal with issues conceiving, and it's such an emotional, difficult thing for people that if I could create something that would help boost that in any way, it would just make me so happy. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. So, the wavelength is different than the normal wavelengths that people use.

Vanessa Spina: Every kind of red light therapy panel has different wavelengths in it depending on the device. And the standard wavelengths that you see in a lot of red light therapy panels is 660 and 850 nanometer. So, 661 is red, and the other is the infrared, which is the 850 nanometers. So, I added the 630 and 830 nanometer, which were the wavelengths used in that Danish study. So, I wanted to custom create because a lot of red light therapy panels will just have those two frequencies because they have been supported in the research. But those, specifically the 630 and 830 were used in that Danish study. So, I wanted to customize it to have those four. So, you don't always have four or you don't have them in that specific range. It kind of depends on the device. 

Melanie Avalon: That is so cool. You know what I'm thinking we should do, [laughs] since I'm launching my EMF blocking product line and there're so many studies on EMFs and fertility, we should do like a fertility bundle [laughs] and it'll be like, buy the EMF blocking products.

Vanessa Spina: That would be amazing because I stopped using my AirPods at the same time about a year ago. And it was also because I didn't want that to interfere with my mitochondria, my fertility either. So, it's a really good combination. 

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy. We should brainstorm some sort of promo. How can people get the Sapphire?

Vanessa Spina: If you go to ketogenicgirl.com, you can check out the Tone LUX line of red light therapy panels. And the Sapphire is like the big one, the half body panel that has those four wavelengths. And you can use it for any area of the body. I use it on my legs. I use it to precondition my legs before workouts. It's just a really powerful panel. So, I was using it on my abdomen a lot. I'm not using it on my abdomen as much right now because I'm pregnant, but I'm still using it on my face and other parts of my body and also for ambient lighting around the room, like I know you like to do too. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. [laughs] That's my favorite use of it, which I know is probably most people like lower on the totem pole. But, yeah, I'm all about the ambient lighting. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And I think the other thing that I have been and we talked about this on another episode, really researching is air quality and getting an air filter that is HEPA grade. And I know you know so much about air filtration, and that's kind of the next thing that I want to-- even though I am pregnant now, I'm still taking CoQ10. I'm still doing red light therapy. I'm still doing things to make sure because those things, they improve egg quality, but they also just improve your overall health and longevity and everything. So, I've been reading about how air quality and having an air purifier is so helpful for the mitochondria, because carbon monoxide is killer for the mitochondria. So, you really have to have really high-quality air. 

Melanie Avalon: Were you using air purifiers historically?

Vanessa Spina: No. 

Melanie Avalon: No.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] This is a new thing for me. Okay, I have layers of different things that it's been, like, a thing I've wanted to look into for a while, but haven't. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wait. Pause. Oh, my goodness I'm like, then again, I feel like the air quality-- I don't know. Is the air quality better in Prague than here? 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] No. And it was really bad when I was growing up in China. It was like, horrible, so yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, Vanessa, we got to get you on team-- Well, I guess you're-- I guess you're here. 

Vanessa Spina: But I want to be educated. Like, I've been learning so much from you. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm obsessed with air quality. I have so many. I mean, I go overboard. I have experimented with a lot of different brands, and it's overwhelming, basically, because, think about it, we're always talking about cleaning up our exposure toxins and our food, and then we think about our cleaning products, and then a little bit like our skincare and makeup. I mean, I'm talking about it all the time. But our air is what we are constantly in 24/7 [chuckles] and so many of us spend our time indoors, and they've done studies and apparently indoor air and this is for the US. So, again, I'm not sure about Prague, but in the US the indoor air can be 100 times more polluted than outdoor air, which is crazy. I just got some facts about this. We actually breathe around 30,000 gallons of air per day, which is just so much. There're all these different compounds that can just accumulate. So, people think about things like bacteria and viruses, but mold, VOCs, all of these chemicals from all of our products that we have. So, I am all about the air filters and purifiers. And so actually, we have a new sponsor on this show that I'm so excited about because I had been using their devices for quite a while and was a big fan of them because I think they make having high-quality air purifier so affordable for people. So, it's AirDoctor, I have one of their units. I love it.

Vanessa Spina: Literally looking them up right now to check them out because I want to invest in a really high-quality device or maybe multiple. See, they've got purifiers and well, they have HVAC filters for your whole house. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I would love to do something like that once I have an actual consistent abode.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's nice looking. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay, so things I love about them, they look super nice, aesthetically pleasing, they're very quiet. It's actually one of the only-- this is a true statement. It's the only air purifier I have that I run while podcasting because it's so quiet, which is amazing. And they're super affordable, which is what I love. When I was researching them in the past, one of their missions was to make high quality air affordable to people, so people can listen-- We have an ad for them in the show, so you can listen to that for more details. But we do have an incredible offer speaking of affordability. So, the coupon code, IFPODCAST, depending on the model you choose, will actually get you up to 39% off or up to $300 off, which is like crazy. So, it depends, again, on the model. So that's airdoctorpro.com. So, A-I-R-D-O-C-T-O-R-P-R-O dot com with the promo code IFPODCAST, for up to 39% off or up to $300 off, depending on the model. I have the 3000, the AirDoctor.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's the one I was just looking at. It circulates about 638 square feet, four times an hour or 1200 square feet twice an hour.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, that's the one. I have the AirDoctor 3000.

Vanessa Spina: It's so cute.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love it. I have it in my kitchen. Yeah, like I said, "Looks super nice, very quiet." Has an ultra-HEPA filter, a carbon gas filter to trap VOCs. I really like its auto mode. Oh, this is what I love about it. Okay, so it's in the kitchen because I don't always trust the auto modes on these things. I've had units of different companies and I don't really feel like it's doing the auto mode because it never changes. So, this AirDoctor is in my kitchen and it's always quiet doing its thing. Every time I cook on my George Foreman Grill, if I use it, if I open it, like, open the George Foreman Grill, it like kicks into high speed. I'm like, "Oh, it knows." So, it's very impressive. Like, it knows, totally knows. 

Vanessa Spina: It's like, intelligent.

Melanie Avalon: And it stays on for a little bit and then simmers back down. I'm probably going to get feedback about using a George Foreman Grill, but that's okay. You got to just pick your battles. It's easier to use than my cast iron. 

Vanessa Spina: This is a really nice discount. Like, I just put the coupon code in just to see. And yeah, it's a generous discount.

Melanie Avalon: And they're already affordable, very affordable pricing. Yeah, and then you put in that discount and it slashes it. So yes, AirDoctor. I'm just so excited to have them on the show because I've been using them for so long. So, I do have quick other announcement. Oh, wait, just last question about what we were talking about. I have to ask you. When you said you were anemic, because I struggle historically with anemia, in what lab markers were you anemic? Like, did you do a full iron panel with, like, ferritin and everything? 

Vanessa Spina: I did, and it's actually mostly because your blood volume increases by about 20%. I wouldn't say it's like a true anemia, but it's like a pregnancy kind of anemia, and it's mostly because you're diluting the volume of ferritin, everything, because your blood volume is increasing so much for the baby. And it plays a big role in my biggest pregnancy symptom, which was fatigue in the first trimester. I don't have any nausea. Any other issues? Same thing with Luca. The only symptom I really have is fatigue, especially in the first trimester and the third. So, I've really been amping up my consumption of beef. Like, we had burgers or steak pretty much every day when we were in Denver and trying to get at least some serving of beef in or some red meat every single day right now. But it's really interesting. It's like I didn't have it that I know of last time, but this time I seem to have it. And I know it's because I wasn't eating that much red meat for some reason. I just wasn't like, we just got out of the habit. I wasn't ordering as much steak; I wasn't eating as many burgers. I was just doing a lot of fish, like a lot of seafood, and I just was doing poultry, and I just wasn't thinking about it intentionally. So, I know that that's probably the main reason because I didn't have that with Luca. I was eating so much [laughs] red meat at least once, if not twice a day with him before getting pregnant and during up until I got the aversion. So, it's really interesting. It's like you have certain things like your cholesterol markers to change, and it's just like, transient part of pregnancy, so you kind of have a different lipid profile and overall blood profile when you're pregnant. 

Melanie Avalon: So, it was your ferritin that was low for the anemia. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was the ferritin, but it was also a couple of other markers. And I just knew right away that it was because blood volume increased so much. So, I wasn't too worried about it, but I was like, "I know that I can take some iron supplements, and I can just eat a lot more red meat, and it'll probably get better." And it did improve after that. So, we'll see how it continues to go. But women are often dealing with anemia because we tend to eat less red meat. We tend to eat healthier. We tend to eat more salads. Every time I go to a steakhouse, I look around. It's mostly men, not a lot of women there. And we also lose every month when we menstruate, we lose iron. When we give birth, we lose tons of iron. So, we're more at risk of anemia. And I do lots of posts about how women need bioavailable heme iron. And it's not the spinach, the heme iron, if you are not vegan or vegetarian, it's the red meat. It's the most bioavailable, absorbable, and it makes the biggest difference. And it's really not all in the spinach, as we've been told. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. So right now, I'm preparing to interview I'm reading two books. I'm reading Dr. Gabrielle Lyon's new book.

Vanessa Spina: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: I love her. Are you going to interview her?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I love her so much.

Vanessa Spina: She's a dear friend of mine and she helped me out so much with my pregnancy and birth with Luca because she's a physician too and she just had two kids, so we had a lot. But she really, really helped me. We kind of bonded over that. Yeah, I'm reading it also.

Melanie Avalon: I was texting her and I was mentioning you. It was like a really long text because she was asking, what podcast should she go on? So, I gave her this really long list, and I didn't know if you knew her or not, so I included this whole thing about you in it, and she didn't address it, so I was like, "That's weird." She didn't address it. So, I didn't know that you guys knew each.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. For a while and yeah, she's been on the podcast once or twice, but yeah, she's really an amazing person. And Dr Don Layman her mentor, I just had him on the podcast last week again, but I've had him on three or four times, which is how I connected with her initially.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. No, it's so funny because she texted me. She was like, "Do you know anybody? Any podcast I should go on?" And then she said she was like, "I feel like you know everybody." I was like, "I know everybody. You're Dr. Gabrielle Lyon." [laughs] Where's that? That always blows my mind. And what's funny, though, so I'm reading her book, which I am just loving, but at the same time, I'm reading do you know Dr. Joel Kahn? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. He's the big vegetarian doctor, right, who went on Rogan's podcast to do the debate with Chris Kresser, I think.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was him. Was that? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I did not-- Okay. Yes, that was him and I listened to that. Do you know my story about how I'm getting him on the show? 

Vanessa Spina: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, this made my life. So, I have my list of guests to reach out to try to book on the show. I so rarely do that because I'm just so slammed with [chuckles] incoming requests anyways, so he was on this list of like someday.

Vanessa Spina: Your dream list.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I probably added him after listening to that episode with Chris Kresser honestly. I totally forgot that that's how I originally heard about him. So, when that article came out, the one that made my age the title, like, 32-year-old podcaster article on CNBC profile piece.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, yeah. That was hilarious. 

Melanie Avalon: So, after that came out, I talk in that about wine and alcohol, and he's like, for health and he's a big wine fan, so he saw that article, like, just organically and reached out to me and was like, "We should collaborate." And I was like, Oh, my gosh, [laughs] you're on my list." 

Vanessa Spina: That's a real moment.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that was like a hardcore moment. I was like, "Yes." [laughs] So I'm reading his book right now, which is called-- Oh, we should tell Gabrielle's book. Gabrielle's book is Forever Strong: A New, Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well, hint, hint it involves protein and muscle, and then Dr. Kahn's book is The Plant-Based Solution: America's Healthy Heart Doc's Plan to Power Your Health. And ironically, it's not the antithesis of Gabrielle's work, but they have very diverging viewpoints. So, it's very-- I really love when I have these moments of reading just complete different viewpoints at the same time. I think it's so helpful for, [sigh] I don't know, finding truth [chuckles] to be exposed to a lot of different viewpoints. So, I'm very excited about that. Okay, very last thing about the steak. I thought about you the other night because I went to see Wicked, the Broadway show. Have you seen that? 

Vanessa Spina: No, but I think it's, like, in the news a lot right now because, isn't Ariana Grande in it? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. They're making a movie of it 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I've heard really good things about the musical.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so good. I think I've seen it now, I don't even know, maybe six times, but I saw it twice in a row, like, within five days. Oh, it's so magical. I want to see it again now. I almost cried when she was singing Defying Gravity. The second time I saw it, I was out very late, very long, drinking a lot of wine, and I got back and I was just ravenous. Like, ravenous and I felt like a caveman. Like, I went in my kitchen and I ate three steaks, and I didn't even really cook them. I mean, I sort of did. It's debatable.

Vanessa Spina: That's, like the thing I miss the most is from pregnancy is beef tartare.

Melanie Avalon: Ah, oh, yes you and I have this, we understand the raw meat. I literally just put on the grill for, like, a second. They were frozen too. [laughs] Put on the grill for a second, and then I just cut through it. It was so satisfying. And I was only going to eat one, and I was like, "I got to keep going." So, I ate three.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I was saying to Pete throughout our whole dinner tonight. I was like, "Steak is just so satisfying like, there's no other protein that-- I'm like every time we're eating it, I'm like, this is so satisfying." You know, it's a superfood. It's so nutrient dense. When it gives your body that much satisfaction nutritionally, it's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: It feels like a sigh of relief when you eat it.

Vanessa Spina: Totally. 

Melanie Avalon: I also sometimes get that feeling with salmon, I think from the high omegas. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I've been having salmon every day. [laughs] I crave it so much. I crave it so much, especially when I'm pregnant. So, I've been having it every day. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. I'll go through, like, salmon periods, and I don't know what it is, but I'll just have to have salmon every night for a while. 

Vanessa Spina: I really think the body just needs those fats, and the more in tune you are with that, especially if it-- like for me, I tend to do more, like, tenderloin with the steak. I eat more like lean chicken. Most of my proteins are pretty lean, but I think the salmon is like the fatty one. So, it's like my body knows if it needs to get those omega-3s, it should ask for salmon and I will deliver. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: So good, so good. Sometime we have to hang out in real life and go to some meat place and just eat all the meat. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And just, like, all the raw. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I want to apologize to our vegetarian, vegan audience. I do respect their viewpoint. [laughs] No, I'm being serious. I respect your viewpoints. I just personally need it.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I was vegetarian for most of my life, so I definitely respect it. But I'm still making up for that time [laughs] all the time.

Melanie Avalon: Reading Dr. Kahn's book, I just feel so hungry like, reading it. I would be so hungry without.

Vanessa Spina: I was always hungry because of protein leverage, yeah. And I often think if I were to do it again now, based on what I know about protein, I would be pounding, like, plant-based protein shakes multiple times a day. And I think that that would probably help a lot in addition to the other supplementation that you need to do if you can do. [chuckles] Yeah, I would definitely go about it a different way now because I definitely was not getting enough protein for years. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Something I'm going to ask Dr. Kahn. I'm going to use myself as a case study because he talks a lot about cholesterol and how animal products affect cholesterol. I am the perfect case study. So especially because I've used InsideTracker. 

Vanessa Spina: Shout out.

Melanie Avalon: I love InsideTracker. Oh, did you get your results from InsideTracker?

Vanessa Spina: No, not yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. I can't wait for you to get them. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's just like I'm not really expecting much right now because I'm pregnant like everything is different. And we even discussed that when I went in for the test and they said, "This is not going to be optimal." I was like, "I know," because I'm like growing a person right now. So, I'm looking forward to doing it also afterwards, postpartum.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's something great about it is how it keeps like in the app, you have all your data over the years now for me, and you can see-- and this is what I'm going to talk with Dr. Kahn about. You can see over time how everything's changing and it has these graphs and it's just so helpful. But the thing I want to ask him, because he's a cardiac doctor, so a lot of what he talks about is cardiovascular disease and cholesterol levels and how diet affects that and specifically how bad meat is for cholesterol. I want to be like, look at my cholesterol panel, which I have points in it with anti-tracker, it tests HDL, LDL, cholesterol, triglycerides and apoB, which is very exciting. You can see the trend. So, I have trends where everything's very high, not very high, but high cholesterol, LDL, HDL, and then right now, everything is shockingly low. And throughout that, I have been consuming the same amount of animal protein, very, very high amounts. The difference is the high spikes are when I would do low carb, higher fat and not animal fat, plant-based fat. So basically, I would do high protein with a lot of MCT oil. And in those times, everything's very high. When I do high-carb, low-fat, but very high animal protein, my cholesterol is low. And so that says to me it literally it can't be the animal. I mean, I guess it could, but it's really hard to look at that and say it's the animal protein because I've kept it consistent.

Vanessa Spina: I don't think it's animal protein, but people associate animal protein with animal fat. So, I don't eat high fat proteins except for salmon, which has healthy lipid profile. But I think if you're eating like carnivore and you're eating just like ribeye's and just tons of really high fat like pork and chicken, I think it could contribute to that. I prefer to get my fats mostly from salmon and olive oil and coconut oil a little bit, like just for cooking. But I don't cook with olive oil. So that's like, I think maybe the only other fat I get from animals like egg yolks, but it's so nutrient dense and nutritious. So, yeah, I can't wait to hear you interview him. 

Melanie Avalon: And to that point, it's exactly what you said, people associate, when they say animal products, they're talking about the fattier part and the ironic thing and the reason I think I'm a perfect case study and I can't wait to talk to him. I added plant-based fats and I basically would eat lean protein with, like I said, MCT oil, coconut oil, really just MCT oil. And that's what would drive everything up. And then now, my most recent panel, I'm just pulling it up on the InsideTracker app because people were asking because I posted this on my Instagram, and it's actually too low now. [laughs] So, like, my total cholesterol is 104, which InsideTracker has in the red, not even in the yellow. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's out of range, but we all know the reference ranges are not necessarily-- 

Melanie Avalon: This is by InsideTracker's range. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. InsideTracker ranges might better than the general population. 

Melanie Avalon: They actually don't have a-- Oh, this is so interesting. Is this the way it is for all of theirs. Oh, wow. I never realized this. So, this is not the way with all of their markers, like, HDL will go from green-- Like, on the low side, HDL will go from green to yellow to red. LDL will go from green-- So, LDL goes straight from green to red. So, you go from great to bad and same with cholesterol. So, in any case, everything is really low. So, my cholesterol right now is 104. My LDL is 49. But in any case, people wanted to know what I did. My HDL is low, too. It's 40. But the trigs are--

Vanessa Spina: What're the triglycerides? 

Melanie Avalon: The trigs are 69. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's perfect. 

Melanie Avalon: So, it's a good ratio and I do want to research more how high does HDL need to be if your LDL and cholesterol are very, very low? But in any case, people want to know what I did to make it-- because it really did, like, severely drop. You can see it on the graphs. I did three things. I started taking my berberine before meals. Before I was just taking it in the fasted state in the morning. So, I think that had a major effect because people typically take it for blood sugar, but it's been shown to have an effect on cholesterol lowering as well. I've been using my CAROL AI Bike, which I'm so obsessed with still. 

Vanessa Spina: That could have a huge effect. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because they have a lot of studies on theirs on cholesterol beneficial lipid level changes in people. So, I've talked about a lot before, but basically, it's a long story short, it's an exercise bike. You do two to three per week of these 8-minute workout. It's the easiest thing you will ever do. It's only 8 minutes. The majority of the time, you're just like breathing, literally breathing. Like it's telling you to breathe. And you're pedaling very slow and you're keeping your resistance below a certain level and then you just do two 20-second all out sprints during which time it is yelling at you to run. So, you feel very motivated. It makes a whole story that you're like a hunter-gatherer in the woods running from a tiger. It's amazing. And I am seeing such changes in my leg definition and now getting my blood work back, I really think that that played a role. And the main part of it is it uses AI to adjust the pedals so that if you slow down, it increases resistance, so you're still pedaling max effort.

So, it forces you to actually do it's a REHIT workout, not a HIIT. So, it's high-intensity interval training, but like a new version of it that's more effective and time efficient. I'm obsessed. So, you can actually go to carolbike.com and coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you $100 off. And I'm going to be doing an interview with them soon, so stay tuned for that. But yeah, so that's the changes I made. Oh, the berberine and then I stopped heating up my fruit because my HbA1c had jumped through the roof from doing that and it went back down.

Vanessa Spina: That's right. Oh, so that's really what it was then.

Melanie Avalon: It's ironic because I changed three things. Taking the berberine, the CAROL AI Bike, and stopping cooking the fruit. But yes, friends, this was so upsetting. My HbA1c, which is always around like 5, I started heating up my fruit because it made it taste like pie and it jumped to 5.8. I was freaking out, that's like not [laughs] okay. I went cold turkey, no pun intended, literally cold turkey. Started eating the fruit frozen again. And now my HbA1c is 4.9. So, that was in a month. It changed, a month. 

Vanessa Spina: That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Which is really empowering to show how much change you can make in a short amount of time. Because even HbA1c, it's supposed to be a three-month marker, but it changed that much in a month. So, team exercise, team don't cook your fruit, team berberine before the meals.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. We just have so much incredible access to biofeedback and data now. In terms of-- that was the thing that it made me so excited the first time I learned that I could measure my own blood at home and I could see what was happening inside my body in response to what I was eating. And then obviously the ketone thing really took off for me too. But I just think now we have the ability to get so much feedback, we don't have to poke around in the dark anymore. You can actually figure out if heating up your fruit is making your blood sugar higher. You can actually figure things out with these kinds of incredible tools.

Melanie Avalon: And it's so telling, especially with the fruit theme, because I did not change the amount of fruit I was eating. The only thing I changed was I was heating it up and that it can have that big of a difference is so-- it really makes you think more about processed foods and how we might be eating the same amount of food, but in a processed form, like how that changes, how it interacts in our body. It's crazy. It's crazy. So, yeah, [laughs] all the things I did want to do a fasting question before we wrap up. Okay, so we actually have two questions related to coffee. Vanessa, would you like to read both of them and we can talk about it?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Let's get into it. So, we have the first question from Sunshine. It came to us on Facebook, in your Facebook group, and the question is, "Is just coffee first thing in the morning, okay. Lately, it has gotten so much negative attention. I have seen more and more lately about if you only drink coffee in the morning, it causes leptin resistance and imbalanced cortisol. I am a longtime faster, OMAD, one meal a day was my go-to for a long time until Cynthia on this podcast convinced me that I wasn't eating enough protein in a 24-hour period. So, I lengthened my window. I don't eat until later in the day and only have coffee for breakfast. Is coffee okay just by itself." Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. And then we also actually have another question. And this is ironic because the first question was from Sunshine and this is from Sunny, and they're not the same person. They are different people. So, would you like to read Sunny's question? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, Sunny asks, "Melanie, I have the same question regarding clean fasting with coffee. Is it a stressor?" 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, friends, I went down the rabbit hole with this question. And so, honestly, when I read this because I feel like people do think coffee and they think that it rises cortisol. I know I did like, I read this and I was like, "Yeah, I've heard that." Let me see what I find. So, my takeaway I found a lot. [chuckles] So I think this is just my theory because I'm going to go into what I found about it. I think people are confusing. Okay, well, first of all, let me step back. There are conflicting studies. So, there are some studies that show caffeine raises cortisol and there are some that show that it lowers. Overall, though, I read this really amazing review and walked away from that feeling. Like in general, caffeine and coffee actually has a lowering effect on cortisol. And I'll talk about why. I think people are probably possibly confusing cortisol with catecholamines because both of the-- so catecholamines, like adrenaline, epinephrine, noradrenaline, both of those can stimulate a sympathetic state. So, like a fight-or-flight type response. We get that from cortisol. We get that from catecholamines. Coffee, caffeine pretty consistently stimulates catecholamines. It does not seem to do so with cortisol and it might actually do the opposite. So that's my theory about where the confusion is coming in, just a theory.

So, what's really interesting is that there is a lot of data and literature on coffee's beneficial effect on diabetes and blood sugar control. And so, I found this really cool study, it's 2022. It's called the acute effects of coffee consumption on blood glucose and its relationship with serum cortisol and insulin in females. And so, it was looking at how coffee affects cortisol and insulin in females. And it also referenced a lot of the literature up to that date. And again, I liked it because it was 2022, so it was very recent. And basically, a lot of literature has shown that coffee lowers cortisol levels in the blood. They think that might actually play a role in its beneficial effects on blood sugar levels because ironically, in the short term, coffee seems to reduce insulin sensitivity. But there's more going on there because like I said, "The long-term effects are beneficial effects on blood sugar regulation and diabetes." So, the response to coffee seems to be connected with the cortisol. So, cortisol seems to go down and blood sugar seems to go down with coffee consumption and it tends to be an acute response with that cortisol. So right after drinking is when you're seeing the decrease in serum cortisol levels. And that's what they found specifically in that study. It also can reduce glucose and glycogen in the liver and it does that by inhibiting muscle glycogenesis, which is basically the formation of glucose in the liver. 

And then at the same time, not only does it seem to lower blood sugar levels and reduce cortisol, but it might also affect other hormones. So, adiponectin and that might be playing a role in its beneficial effects on diabetes. And then Sunshine was asking about the insulin connection. There was another study from 2017, so they actually found that it did affect leptin levels, but that it did not affect insulin or cortisol levels. So that's like a baseline no response with cortisol. So, my takeaway reading all of it, and this is crazy because a lot of people are thinking coffee, stress, that it's the sympathetic state and a problem. But literally this article was positing that coffee might have antistress effect because of its reduction in cortisol levels. So, what is going on here? And then just as like another tangent, I didn't know this, there are over 1000 compounds in coffee that affect glucose metabolism, which is crazy, mind blowing and likely beneficially. So, my takeaway after reading all of that was coffee and caffeine is probably not having a negative effect on cortisol. It's probably having, if anything, a beneficial effect. And this fear and concern about the "cortisol," I think might be due to caffeine activating the sympathetic system via other modalities, which would be something to keep in mind. So, it might still be a concern for other reasons, but I actually don't think it's the cortisol. At least just not from what I was reading. And then I was going to go on a tangent about my new favorite coffee. But before that, do you have thoughts on the coffee and the cortisol?

Vanessa Spina: I'm so glad that you clarified that. Honestly, I'm kind of over the whole anti-coffee trend. As a sports nutrition specialist, I'm very aware that caffeine is actually one of the only scientifically backed supplements that is an ergogenic or performance aid. I'm such a huge fan of coffee and caffeine and not just because I'm super addicted to it, but also because I just think it has so many amazing properties. It actually helps with fat burning. It helps the body release those catecholamines that you were mentioning which bind to the beta receptors on our fat cells to help with fat flux. It actually even can stimulate brown fat. There're just so many wonderful things about coffee. I think the issue that people can run into is if they are doing too much potentially or if they're sensitive to it and they notice. If you have caffeine and you notice that every time you have it. I mean coffee, you feel anxious afterwards, try having a less potent dose of it or try going off it. I've done so many experiments where I was convinced by all this anti-coffee messaging, like maybe I should try it, maybe it is affecting my blood glucose, etc. And every single time I would cut it out for like a month, it would make zero difference, none whatsoever.

I probably was just like having less fat burning, less performance. I limit myself because I know myself. I have one cup in the morning and I make my own espresso. So, it's about 75 mg. I continue to have it during pregnancy because it's safe up to about 200 mg. If I really need it, I'll have another coffee in the afternoon, but I very rarely do that. So, I have talked to people though, like I have a friend who's a physician. She has like six or seven coffees a day because she's a super busy [laughs] physician who needs to be alert and on it all the time. And I think that potentially there could be issues, like if you were having just so much caffeine constantly, so much coffee. But I'm a big fan of it. I don't understand why it is being touted, like you said, "As having to do with stimulating cortisol." Other people say it makes your blood sugar higher if anything, that's probably just having you dump a little bit of glycogen from your liver and that's not a bad thing. It's not like, "Oh, it's making your blood glucose higher, so you're going to have diabetes kind of thing." [chuckles] Not at all, so I don't really get the anti-coffee rhetoric. I think it's a little bit like maybe trendy and so people are jumping on the bandwagon. And I think people like to deny themselves things and feel good about themselves for doing that. So, I think that may be where some of it's coming from, but scientifically it's like a proven performance aid. It's great for performance, [laughs] it's great for fat burning. So, I'm very pro coffee, just personally.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I'm so glad we're on the same page. And it's so interesting where that came from because that is the vibe that I have just tangentially experienced about coffee. Like I said, "I read the question." I was like, "Yeah, I've heard that, that makes sense." And then I went and looked at all the studies. I was like, "Oh, it does the opposite. It probably is really good for cortisol." 

Vanessa Spina: Busting myths here on The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Melanie Avalon: My mind was a little bit blown and I walked away from reading all the studies and I was like; "I need my coffee for my blood sugar control." [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: Totally. People have it totally opposite. A lot of people get it, but a lot of people have it totally opposite. And I don't think a week or two goes by that I don't get some kind of comment or message stating that, like, "Oh, this person said that it's bad for my blood sugar, bad for my cortisol." And I'm just like, [sigh] "Here [laughs] we go again." So hopefully people listening to this will know and understand. And I know you will link up all those studies in the show notes for people because some people may be like, "I don't believe it, I have to go read that for myself so that I can be convinced too." 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'll definitely put a link. There was another study I found, and this wasn't coffee in the liquid form, it was coffee extract. But they found that coffee extract actually blocks the conversion of cortisol creation, which is crazy. So that's like also the antithesis that it increases cortisol. So, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I do think that a lot of people can have an issue with mold in coffee and might be reacting to compounds in coffee and toxins in coffee. And that's why historically I'd been drinking literally Bulletproof Coffee since 2012. I am no longer drinking Bulletproof Coffee because, well, Dave Asprey is no longer with Bulletproof Coffee and can no longer confirm that they are-- I mean, they might still be doing all the mold testing and everything, but he's the reason I was trusting to drink that coffee.

So, he has a new coffee brand that I'm obsessed with. It is my official favorite coffee and I'm probably going to give this to a lot of people for like Christmas and stuff. It's called Danger Coffee. So, it's mold free. But what's really cool about it is it's remineralized, which is so cool because minerals are just so key. And this is probably something I need to go down the rabbit hole and research and see just how much does normal coffee potentially like, does it deplete minerals or not? Regardless, though, so Danger Coffee, he actually has a potent formula that has over 50 trace minerals, nutrients, and electrolytes in the coffee. So, you get all the benefits of coffee, none of the mold, tested for purity and potency, and you get these minerals, these nutrients, these electrolytes, and it tastes amazing. I prefer it to Bulletproof Coffee. So, it's my new favorite thing. I do have a discount if you go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. So that's my favorite coffee for intermittent fasting. But yeah, just last comment is that researching all the coffee, my takeaway was that it sounds like the perfect thing to pair with fasting if you're a coffee drinker.

Vanessa Spina: It totally is, like it also has appetite suppression effects. Like if you are wanting to do intermittent fasting, it's like your best friend, [laughs] especially in the mornings. Now, I know that there is some rhetoric out there, some discussion out there about skipping breakfast and having coffee in lieu of breakfast and that being bad for your hormones, as we just talked about, it actually doesn't really have that effect. But some people do find that having a high-protein breakfast is great. It's great for your muscle mass, your lean body mass, it's great for your metabolism and you can have coffee with it. If you like to eat earlier in the day, then I suggest either doing a break-- and you still want to do time restricted eating or intermittent fasting, doing a breakfast and lunch or doing and closing your eating window early for the day or having a breakfast and then fasting until dinner. And you can have your coffee with your breakfast. 

But if you prefer to eat later in the day, which I find so many people, myself included, prefer to do because we just don't feel that hungry in the morning, that's not a bad sign. And I think the fact that there's been this association, the fact that maybe people are saying that having just coffee for breakfast is causing leptin resistance, it's coming from the fact that having a high-protein breakfast can help if you have leptin resistance is not the same as having just coffee for breakfast as causing leptin resistance. So, if you do have leptin resistance, it's one of the things that's recommended in Dr. Jack Kruse's, Leptin Reset protocol, have a high- protein breakfast, like more so fat for calories, not so much carbs. Protein scientist Dr. Don Layman also recommends that. You know Dr. Paul Arciero, who we recently interviewed, also recommends that. It's definitely great for body composition, but I don't think that we can then infer that it causes leptin resistance. So, I'm really glad that you cleared it up with some of the research as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I love that we are on the same page. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm a little bit passionate about this topic. [laughs] Don't take my coffee from me. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm passionate about it. I don't drink that much coffee, though. I just have a little bit every morning. 

Vanessa Spina: I know, yeah. And you're still passionate about it so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I still love that little bit that I have, and I think it just works so well for so many people, especially just one last tangent. Like all of these pre-workouts and stuff that people are cramming down with all these weird ingredients. Coffee is a great pre-workout. I feel like you can get a lot of the benefits just with coffee and just like a lot of health benefits from it.

So, yeah, on that note, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. We talked about so much in today's show. You can get links to everything that we talked about and a full transcript in the show notes. That will be at ifpodcast.com/episode330. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there and you can join me in my Facebook group IF biohackers. I've started to ask in there for questions and I kind of like using them because it keeps it really fresh. So, if you'd like your question featured, definitely check out that group and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalo and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: No, that's everything. Thank you so much for the wonderful questions and I'm super excited for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

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Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jul 16

Episode 326: Weddings, Castles, Ice Baths, Running, Hypoglycemic Response, Electrolytes, Sugar Free Gum, Strong Cravings, Autophagy, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

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Go To toneprotein.com To get the Vanessa's New Protein Supplement with an exclusive pre-launch discount!

Listener Q&A: Evi - Questions for Vanessa

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! 

Listener Q&A: Ben - Does chewing sugar free gum like “Extra” ruin most of the benefits of intermittent fasting

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I am doing awesome. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. We were saying last week or actually two weeks ago, because I think last week we had our fabulous episode with Paul, hopefully since we haven't recorded [laughs] it yet, but manifesting putting that out there. I was going to tell you about my experience at my brother's wedding. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I can't wait to hear everything.

Melanie Avalon: I decided-- I love weddings. Do you like weddings? 

Vanessa Spina: I do, yeah. They're so much fun. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting because it's seeing people and hanging out and like, drinks and food and fun. But then it's also family and then the blend, did I tell you the blend of families at this wedding? 

Vanessa Spina: Um-mm.

Melanie Avalon: So [chuckles] on my mom's side of the family, her side of the family is Southern, but very Christian, very religious, like conservative. Then my dad's side of the family is like, Southern, more like to have a good time, just a different vibe. [chuckles] And then on her side of the family, the bride's side, her father is Jewish, so there was a whole Jewish culture. It was actually a Jewish wedding. And then her mom is Puerto Rican, so everybody flew in from Puerto Rico. So, it was like this blend of families. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: It's just crazy to feel all the dynamics. So even like at the dance party, at the end, half the songs they're playing were all these Latin America songs that none of us knew, but they all knew, like, every word too. And it was my first Jewish wedding. I'd never been to it. Have you been to a Jewish wedding? 

Vanessa Spina: I actually have never been to one.

Melanie Avalon: It was nice to see the traditions. 

Vanessa Spina: I've seen it, it's so beautiful. 

Melanie Avalon: Like in general Jewish weddings.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I've just seen some of the traditions in movies or shows and they just look so neat. 

Melanie Avalon: It was exciting. I feel like it was educational and it was at a winery, which was fun. And I did successfully sneak in my Dry Farm Wines because if I'm going to be drinking more than normal, I have to have my organic low alcohol wines. So, I did that successfully. So that was helpful [laughs] for having a lot to imbibe in. But some takeaway highlights were my parents got down on the dance floor, which was-- I was not anticipating that. So that made my life beyond belief. My life is complete. And then I did give a bit of a speech. Have you given a speech before at a wedding? 

Vanessa Spina: I was my best friend's maid of honor and it was huge, they had so many guests. I did a speech in front of all of them and it was really special but nerve wracking.

Melanie Avalon: Had you written it out and read it or how did you do it? 

Vanessa Spina: I think I had notes. I think I had notes for it. What about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I kind of had like an outline as a joke. I got ChatGPT to write some of it because my brother and I always talk about ChatGPT. And then I just brought in some personal stuff as well. It was really fun. But then the funny moment for me [laughs] "Oh, I'm trying to decide if I should share this." So, my brother is he's younger, he's like 20-- I should know this. I think he's like 28. His wife, crazy, she's like 25, 26. Everybody was mostly younger as far as like the bridal party and everything. And so there [chuckles] was the party at the wedding and then the winery and it was amazing. And then we went to like, the "after party." I literally felt like I was back in college because it was like, at the groom's-- like the house where the groomsmen and the bridesmaids were staying. It was like old school, college vibes. [laughs] I was like, [laughs] "This is so fun." I saw somebody across the room who looked older. I was feeling like a little bit out of place. I literally just walked up to him and I was like, "Hi, you look old. Can we be friends?" [chuckles] Literally, that was my opening line. I was like, "How old are you?" And he was like, "I'm 38." And I was like, "Oh, great." [laughs] I was like me and you, we're talking. But then what's really funny is it was my brother's boss [laughs] who flew in for the wedding. So, I became like friends with his boss, which was just like precious.

Vanessa Spina: Became besties. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It was a really fun time, though, all around and it was really beautiful. The North Georgia mountains are very, very beautiful. There's like wineries. It's like very unexpected. 

Vanessa Spina: That sounds gorgeous. 

Melanie Avalon: So now, I want to go to another wedding. People need to get married [chuckles] so I can go hang out. That's my life. What's new with you? 

Vanessa Spina: That sounds amazing. That sounds like so much fun. We had a really fun weekend too. We had a lot of fun, a lot of family fun. And we had a little birthday party for one of Luca's little friends, Maya. His little girlfriend was turning two, so we had--

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait. Pause, his girlfriend? 

Vanessa Spina: No, not really his girlfriend, but him and Maya, they're just like two peas in a pod. They're almost the exact same age. So out of all their little friends here, him and her, they kind of get each other. They're always going through similar stages, and they're really cute. Like, Luca will feed her blueberries or I don't know. They're just so cute together. So, it was her birthday party, and we had, like, a barbecue in the park, this beautiful park in Prague. And we all brought, like, whatever we wanted to grill. Their extended family was all visiting from Arizona, so it was really fun to have all them there. And we just had a great time celebrating with them. And it was just a really fun weekend. They've had this thing called Children's Day here. And so, on Saturday, went to the Castle Royal Gardens, and they had this sort of recreation of what like a medieval carousel would look like. And I was actually asking them if it was the original, because Pete and I were debating if it was the actual original carousel from back then, and she said it's not, but they rebuilt it to look like the one in her grandfather's pictures. So, it was like, it was a good recreation of an original medieval style carousel with just all this so beautifully hand painted and gorgeous. There's just been all these events like that around the city, so Luca's gotten to go on all these carousel rides and stuff and he loves it. So, it's really fun just to have activities like that to go and do. And the weather has just been so sunny and amazing. Just glorious, sunny summer days. 

Melanie Avalon: A carousel? Like a moving carousel? Like a ride. They had those in the medieval times.

Vanessa Spina: Apparently, they did? [chuckles] Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: What motorized them? 

Vanessa Spina: There's one. So, the guy, like, cranks it.

Melanie Avalon: A guy's pumping it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. He's like crank. And so, this one had like it was all wooden, and it was beautifully painted. And then they had these little boxes, so Pete and Luca sat in one. But there's another one near our house in the park that's from, I think, about 100 years ago or 150 years ago. And it's from Italy, and it's original, and it's the one with, like, the horses that go up and down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, that's what I'm picturing. 

Vanessa Spina: So beautiful, it's so beautiful. And it's actually, like, authentically from that time. And that one's really fun, too. We can sit on the horse and stuff. I have a reel on my Instagram where Luca and I are on it together. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. I'm going to go find that ASAP.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] It's from last summer. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Just fun little things like that from another time. But as I was telling you last week, we're so excited to go visit more castles, and a lot of the castles here are actually were inspiration for the Disney Castles. I have to send you pictures of that. There's this one, it's about 2 hours south of here and it looks like the actual Disney, like, the main Disney Castle. Like, I'm pretty sure it's the one that inspired their creation of it. And it's so amazing because they have all the original furniture in it. All the original chandeliers like I was telling you. And you can walk through. It takes a couple hours to do a tour and it's so stunning. But I have to send you a picture of it because you'll be like, "Oh, my gosh, that's the Disney castle." 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. I want to live in a castle. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, same. [laughs] I always walk through, and I'm pretending that this was my house. 

Melanie Avalon: You live there? [laughs]  

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] This is my house. And this is, like, my little window sill where I would read books or write poems [laughs] or I don't know, whatever they were doing, like, stitching, needle points or whatever at the window. It just sounds tranquil.

Melanie Avalon: It does. Although we probably really idolize it. Can you imagine, like, the bathroom situation back then? 

Vanessa Spina: That's not the medieval thing. You don't want a medieval bathroom, like no. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. And just, like, family dynamics, people. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I think life was very good for just a few people. For most people, it was not very good. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: [chuckles] I shouldn't laugh, but yeah, it's a gratitude moment, and I realize even now there are people privileged, but I'm just very grateful to not be, like, a peasant. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. The average person like today's peasant lives and I'm talking about the average person ourselves compared to those kings and queens back in the day, even an average person with a decent income has better bathroom situation than a king 100 years ago. You know what I mean? Our comforts, we talk a lot about the plagues of prosperity, like, the different issues we have from our convenient lifestyles, but we're so comfortable compared to-- we have things that emperors and kings and queens in the past would have only dreamed of. So, I think we have it pretty good. I agree. Thankfulness moment. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it really becomes present when you lose it. Like, when the power goes out or the water is not working, and you're like, "Wow, I really need to not take this for granted." It's kind of mind blowing. Even the shower, I can just go in this little room and turn on this thing. And water comes from the ceiling any temperature I want and immediately gets taken care of. It's not messy. [laughs] Everything I don't know, modern life, I appreciate it. 

Vanessa Spina: It's about that every day. I'm thankful every day for my kitchen, for our bed, for the dishwasher. Everyday I'm like, "Pete, dishwashers are amazing." You put it on and it cleans everything for you. We have it so good. 

Melanie Avalon: We really do. 

Vanessa Spina: Technologies, amazing technologies. We're talking to each other right now from across the world. Like, we would have had to take a steamboat or something for, like, two months to have a conversation at a different time.

Melanie Avalon: Or, like, texting now. It's like the modern-day equivalent of writing letters. Think about how much you stress writing a text to your lover. And now think about if you could only do it via letters. And it was like months and months in between.

Vanessa Spina: caring.

Melanie Avalon: You wouldn't know if you've been ghosted because the turnaround time [laughs] is already like ghosting time.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It feels like you have to be so patient. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Yeah. 

Vanessa Spina: But it also sounds kind of romantic.

Melanie Avalon: It does. Did you ever send actual letters with people? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. When Pete and I first met, I sent him a letter with a CD I made for him. I think it was like a CD with mp3s on it of songs that made me think of him. And he loved it. [laughs] He was so excited and thrilled. And because we did long distance for a long time when we first met, I was in Canada, in Vancouver and he was in Denver. We really got to build such a beautiful friendship because we were just getting to know each other a lot. Just, like, talking to each other on, like, what was the messenger? We were on some chat on the computer. We would message each other on there. We would text, we would email, we would call each other, and then we would get to see each other. And it was so romantic. He'd come pick me up at the airport and take me on amazing dates, and then he asked me to go to Hawaii with him. After we had-- I think we'd been on two or three dates of seeing each other in Vancouver and Colorado.

He's like, "Do you want to go to Maui?" I was like, "Yeah." [laughs] So went to Maui together and we took, I think it was like a week holiday or something. And it was amazing because we're dating long distance. Like, normally a long-distance relationship, you're like, together and then you have to live apart. But dating long distance is totally different. So, we kind of had to figure out, is this going to work out? Is this worth dating long distance? We had to get to know each other a little bit faster, and that was, like, the best way. We had the most incredible romantic time there together. I just remember being in my pajamas, like, brushing my teeth with him, and I was like, this is so weird. I don't really know him that well. [laughs] And we're like brushing our teeth with our pajamas on, but it was so amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. We're so similar because when I had a long-distance relationship, I was all about it for all of the reasons you just said. Like, you get to know the person through talking, so it's like all conversations and you don't get to know them one level physically. I don't know. You were talking about, like, cultivating the friendship. I feel like you get a lot of that aspect and then it's just, like, so magical when you actually are together because it's very limited treasure time. So, it's like magical romance and I need my space. So, I was like, "This is great." I was like, "I was made for long distance relationships." 

Vanessa Spina: They're so great. 

Melanie Avalon: We should write a book about it. I remember I was, like, looking up all the stats when I was in it because apparently the stats are not favorable. I was like, "I don't know. I'm down. This works for me." And I've said this before-- I don't know, if I'll ever be married, but I don't know if I could live with somebody. And if I did, I think I would still need my own bedroom. I need my space.

Vanessa Spina: I used to always say I would need a separate wing. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Yes. 

Vanessa Spina: No matter the size of the house, I would need my own area. 

Melanie Avalon: In our castle. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. In the castle, exactly, exactly. I think it keeps a little bit of the romance alive longer when you have your own bathrooms that’s definitely--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if that would-- not that would solve relationship problems. But it's kind of a cool hack. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It really, really helps if you can do it just to have your own space. My husband uses  

Melanie Avalon: Do you guys have separate bathrooms? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he uses our hallway/guest bathroom and I use our bedroom one. And it actually works out great for him because he has one of those standing showers in the what's it called? The door. [chuckles] It's got a door to it. I don't know what they're called. Just a shower with a door. Whereas mine is like a bathtub with a shower. So, we each have our preferences and it works really well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you take baths? 

Vanessa Spina: I take ice baths. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I need to get on that.

Vanessa Spina: The only kind of bath I take lately. But I did like in the last six months, I think a couple of months ago I was having some muscle soreness, which I never have. And so, I did an Epsom salt bath and it was amazing. It really helped. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I've actually never done one, actually. I might have a long time ago. But people swear by those. Think about what people-- just to bring this awful circle, think about people back in the old times and how often they could take baths and showers. Their hair was probably really greasy. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I think maybe in some ways it was better because you'd have more natural oils in your hair whereas I think we tend to now like over bathe.

Melanie Avalon: That's true. They might not have had as much of the rebound effect from responding to all these stripping products. Yeah. Well, [chuckles] on that note, I will just make a really quick announcement, because the day this airs, tomorrow is the last day to get grandfathered in for life for my berberine subscription. So, friends, if you've been wanting to take control of your blood sugar levels with berberine, which is an herb that's been used in ayurvedic and Chinese medicine for thousands of years, can have a profound effect on your blood sugar, your cholesterol levels, even your gut microbiome, and can activate longevity pathways like AMPK. You definitely want my AvalonX Berberine. I sound like a commercial right now, [chuckles] but I'm not reading anything. I'm just saying this. Tomorrow is the last day to get a subscription for life and you can pick either two bottles every two months or two bottles every three months. And doing so is going to help us figure out what you guys most want when it comes to launching a large bottle option, which in the end is the most sustainable option for everybody. So definitely get that. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. And then would you like to give your landing page for your Tone Protein, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. If you would like to get the launch discount, make sure to go toneprotein.com and sign up with your name and email so that you can get the launch discount. It'll be the biggest discount that will ever be had on it. So definitely sign up if you're interested in checking out the protein that I am making. And it is going to be scientifically optimized for muscle protein synthesis in a way that no other protein powder does. So, I am super excited about it and that's at toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have a question from Evie, and the subject is actually questions for Vanessa. So, she has two questions, but of course we can both answer these. So, question one for Vanessa. She says, "I have been low-carb for years, mixing it up with being in ketosis. I am hardly ever hungry and feel good and healthy at the age of 48. What does it mean/what happens when I have a sweet cake and an hour later, I feel cold, sweaty and no energy?" So, I think we can answer that. 

Vanessa Spina: So, my first-- Hi, Evie thank you for your question. And it's great that you've been doing low carb and sort of mixing it up with being in ketosis and sounds like you don't have out of control hunger and you feel good and healthy. But what I would say, my initial thought is that it's a hypoglycemic response and sometimes people who do a keto or low carb, they get a kind of hypoglycemic response, which is just temporary or transient. And it's because your body is not used to receiving these higher carb loads at one time because you're more optimized for fat burning. So, if you do eat something that's like really sugary or processed like a sweet cake, then it probably will send your blood glucose a lot higher than if you were eating carbs all the time. And it's just sort of a temporary response. So that's probably why you're having that, is that your blood sugar is going a lot higher. And then because it's going so high, it's then dropping quite low afterwards. And that's usually what that means if you feel like a cold sweat and no energy. But I'm not a doctor by any stretch, so I would definitely ask a properly trained doctor about that.

If you have concerns about it, just note that it's very common for people who do keto and low carb and then they eat something that they don't normally eat because you're just not trained to. If you were to go back and eat carbs for a week and then have a sweet cake, then you probably wouldn't have that effect, I'm guessing. But because you're so optimized for fat burning, your body doesn't-- it gets kind of overwhelmed by all of that sugar hitting all at once when it's not used to having much in there. And the body's always optimizing for whatever you're giving it on a regular basis. It's always preparing. And so, if you're eating carbs on a regular basis, it's ready to go. It goes, "Oh, I know what this is, it's carb coming in, I have the insulin ready to go to get the blood sugar under control so it doesn't go too high." But then when you're eating keto and low carb, you're not all ready for that. Your body not as primed for that, so it can send blood sugar higher than normal, and then you may have a low. But again, I'm not a doctor, so you'd need a professional interpretation of it. But I'm just thinking that's what it could potentially be. What do you think, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and I think I read it wrong. I think I said cold, sweaty, and it's cold sweat, like you were saying. That was my exact thoughts. Because basically when you get that swing up and then that drop, the body will often respond with like cortisol and adrenaline to raise back up your blood sugar, and that can create those cold sweat feelings. So, it's probably what's going on. This would be a great example of somebody who could benefit probably from wearing a CGM if you haven't. And actually, on today's episode, I did not plan this, but NutriSense is a sponsor of today's episode and I love using their CGMs. And if you wear a CGM, it's basically a continuous glucose monitor and it gives you a real time picture 24/7 of your blood sugar levels and how you are responding to food. It's technically testing your interstitial fluid, but it is a reflection of your blood sugar. 

If you were wearing that during this experience, Vanessa, you could see if that is what's happening and what that would look like. It would go up and then drop down. So, yes, our code for NutriSense, you can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST, and that will save you $30 and it will also get you one month of free dietitian support. And the cool thing about the dietitian support is they will actually help you interpret what you're seeing on the CGM and give you guidance and advice. So, it's a very, very cool thing.

Okay. Her second question, she says, "What is important to eat in real food form as a lifelong runner?" I ran my first marathon last year. I don't take any supplements ever. I feel healthy now, but I don't want my joints to suffer. I want to be able to run as long as I can. I don't take collagen or protein or energy bars as I don't feel the need, but I worry it may catch up with me. If you recommend any products, please bear in mind, she lives in Prague. [chuckles] She says, "I live in Prague. I like you live in Prague and may not be able to get things." Thank you. I do have a quick question before we answer this. Vanessa being in Prague, is there an Amazon Prague? 

Vanessa Spina: There's an Amazon Germany, so I do order from them a lot. But I usually-- if there's anything that I specifically can't get here, I usually just stock up on it when we're home, and there're a few things that I can get here, but they're just like two, three times the price. So, like, my magnesium calm, I always get that. I think Natural Vitality, I always get some of those when we're home. I bring back lots of LMNT, LMNT packs and there are certain things that now, over time, I've been able to find local replacements for most of them, but at the beginning, they didn't have as many things, so I was, like, bringing over more or my friends or family would bring stuff over also when they came. So, with availability, I would say it's gotten a lot better in even just the last five years. There're all these companies now that have supplements and all kinds of things and it's really popped up in the last few years. It's way more accessible. 

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Yeah. I think I was sharing with you when I was trying to mail you some Beautycounter stuff. I learned [chuckles] all about shipping. I literally went everywhere. 

Vanessa Spina: It's so funny because I ship myself stuff all the time from my warehouse. I wonder what-- it's funny, but I'm so glad that you figured out in the end, even though you had to jump through so many hoops to send it to me. 

Melanie Avalon: So that experience and then I mentioned him before recently, Mark Schatzker, who wrote The Dorito Effect, I was getting a signed copy of it. He lives in Canada and I was trying to get a signed copy of his book for a friend. I was trying to just send him money to reimburse him to Canada and that was a hassle. I literally went everywhere. I was like, "Why is this so hard?" This should not be this hard. But yeah, with the post office, they didn't even have Prague in the computer. 

Vanessa Spina: That's so crazy. 

Melanie Avalon: Just wasn't there. 

Vanessa Spina: So funny, though. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like okay, [chuckles] that's how we handle things. 

Vanessa Spina: [unintelligible [00:27:20] this country, like what? 

Melanie Avalon: It's like an ostrich putting its head in the sand. So, DHL was what ended up being the best option in case people are wondering, at least for me for international shipping.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. DHL, FedEx usually is great. UPS, it all comes here, [laughs] really, but it's gotten better and better. But I totally understand where you're coming from, Evie, because Evie, I know sometimes it's harder to find some of the products that you'll see online or you'll hear people using. And it's frustrating sometimes because sometimes you do find them. But for some reason, imported products are, like, two to three times as much as they normally would be. So that can be frustrating too but it's a really great question. Now, I think the traditional thinking with running is always like carb loading, etc. But I think there are certain sports where a low carb can really actually give you an advantage. And especially if you're doing like a marathon, anytime you're operating between 60% to 70% of your VO2 max, or you're doing that kind of aerobic activity where you're burning lots of fat, it's going to be advantageous to be a fat burner. So, you may have even felt that while you're running.

The biggest thing, I think, that trips people up can be the electrolytes. So, if you can find a good electrolyte supplement, Melanie and I love LMNT, and they have amazing flavors with the electrolyte packets as well. And that's something that I always take with us when we're doing any kind of like hiking or especially if it's going to be dry. And sometimes if I don't have access to that, I'll just sort of make my own electrolyte drink. And I'll do that with some salt and magnesium powder. And it's really the salt I think that's important, especially when it comes to doing endurance. If you're not eating as many carbs, it's going to be a little bit more of a challenge for you to retain electrolytes because your kidneys won't reabsorb as many electrolytes and so you'll sort of release more water and it can become harder to hold on to them. So, supplementing with electrolytes, I think, can be a big thing.

In terms of the foods, like I said, you could either go the carb route and eat lots of carbs and carb load before your races which some people do, but they tend to hit that wall once they run out of the glycogen stores in the liver and muscles. Whereas if you're a fat burner, it's possible to not hit that wall in the same way because you're not running out of glycogen like you're already primed to be fat fueled. I've actually never run a marathon and I don't know what the experience would be like, but I know that if you're doing intense activity, you definitely have to keep the electrolytes up in terms of what foods to eat or supplements. There's more and more protein bars and protein supplements and protein-type foods available here. I've seen them more and more. There's nothing really super special that I would recommend other than finding some local electrolytes. And I use LMNT, so I don't know what they would have potentially available in Europe. Maybe there's something similar. I don't think LMNT ships to Europe yet.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so. 

Vanessa Spina: There might be an electrolyte drink that does ship here or you can look up online different ways to make your own. It's pretty relatively easy to do and other than that, I can't think of any specific foods that would, like, whole foods or supplements that you would take to enhance running. I think just being adept at fat burning, being fat fueled can potentially give you an advantage if you are sort of in that heart rate zone. What do you think, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, I got distracted. I was looking up where LMNT ships. It says they actually do ship to most countries. They have a list where they don't ship. Prague is not on that list, so it is possible that they ship there.

Vanessa Spina: I'm going to try to check out while you answer and see if it will ship to me here. I've never tried. I just usually get it when we're home. What are your thoughts on her second question?

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad that you brought attention to the electrolytes. I definitely agree. I as well do not have marathon running experience, so my apologies there. I agree with everything Vanessa was saying about how low-carb diet can work really well for a lot of distance running for the reasons she said about not hitting that wall. So, I understand about the want and the need to consume foods in real food form, which I totally love. So just to speak specifically, because you're talking about like joint health and stuff like that, so collagen, a lot of people do benefit from supplementing collagen. MD Logic Health has a great collagen that people can check out. If you don't want to take supplemental collagen, you could focus on whole food meat with a high glycine ratio. So gelatinous meats, if you're having chicken, like eating all of the whole chicken, so you get the meats around the tendons and all of that. Making bone broths or meat broths can be a good way to up that glycine ratio and get the collagen benefits without necessarily taking a collagen supplement.

And then as far as protein, yes, I'm totally down with whole foods form protein. If protein powders are not a way that you want to go, same with energy bars. But it does go back to just making sure that you're able to absorb and getting all the protein that you need. And some people struggle with that more than others and especially athletes probably have higher protein intake. So just making sure that you are getting what you need and if not, possibly supplementing accordingly. I'll make a brief plug because you're talking about your joints again. So, anything anti-inflammatory will be pretty beneficial for that. So, I really love my serrapeptase supplement, which was the supplement that I launched AvalonX with, just because it can be so anti-inflammatory and really help people with their joints.

It's a proteolytic enzyme, so when you take it in a fasted state, it goes into your body and it breaks down problematic protein buildups and can really help resolve inflammation and sort of be protective on that front. So that might be something to proactively take and then continually take. And then just like anti-inflammatory diet in general with the joints. So going back to that whole food protein, eating a lot of fish with a high omega-3 ratio can be something really great to focus on, low mercury omega-3 fish. So, I love The Better-- it used to be called Australias, now it's called The Better Fish Barramundi. You can get it at Whole Foods and Costco. I am obsessed with this fish. It's a lean whitefish, but it actually has the highest omega-3 ratio of any whitefish and it's tested to be free of mercury. I love that fish. It's a great protein to have. And then salmon, sardines, scallop, shrimp, things like that can be great on the protein front. Yeah, I think focusing on the anti-inflammatory diet sounds like the low carb will probably work well for you or is working well for you with the marathon and focusing on the electrolytes. Did it work, by the way, Vanessa, to ship?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it does ship here to Prague. So, if you want to order it and I know we both have links for LMNT as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so the link for this show is drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and that will get you whatever the current offer is. So, when you go to drinklmnt.com/Ifpodcast, you'll get a free gift with purchase, so you'll actually get a free element sample pack with any order. So that's really awesome. It includes all of their flavors to try. So again, that is drinklmnt.com/Ifpodcast. And then one last little piece about it. A podcast I was listening to recently, Vanessa, they were actually saying that BCAAs also could help with hydration, similar to the way electrolytes do. Have you heard that before? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't. I wonder what the mechanism of action would be.

Melanie Avalon: They were talking about it. It's the same-- [laughs] it's the same episode that I talked about recently with other-- I'm going to send you this episode and I'm dying to hear your thoughts and then maybe we can circle back on some of the points because it was interesting. It was an interview with Kion for their BCAA supplements. So, shall we answer another question? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, the next question is from Ben and the subject is, "Does chewing sugar free gum, like, extra ruin most of the benefits of intermittent fasting?" "Hey ladies, I love, love, love all three of your podcasts." I listen every day during my fasting to keep me motivated. I'm a 36-year-old man who has been intermittent fasting for three months. I've lost weight. I feel absolutely great overall. Still five pounds to lose, but not as worried about that since I feel great. I am curious though does chewing sugar free gum, like, extra completely ruin the benefits of intermittent fasting when eaten during the fasted state? I also count my calories and macros, so that may be the reason for my weight loss. I know intermittent fasting has helped me get rid of my hunger cravings and the eating window helps me to not snack all day and be able to stay within my daily/macros. But am I getting any other benefits, like autophagy, many other benefits that you'll talk about? I chew the gum to curb my appetite or cravings and I may have during the fasted state, which is from 7:00 PM to 1:00 PM the next day and it works great for that. I chew it both in the beginning of the fast as well as at the end. This is working for me, so I probably won't change it, but I'm just curious as to your thoughts on it. Thanks so much. Keep up your amazing work that is helping this farmer from Kentucky," Ben Winters.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, Ben. Well, just a few comments first about you, Ben personally, one I love when listeners give us a little snapshot of who they are. Like a farmer from Kentucky, I can like, you know, I get like this whole picture of Ben now. 

Vanessa Spina: Me too. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that also, Winters, best last name ever. That should be my last name. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I love the last name. 

Melanie Avalon: I really love this question and it's something I've thought about a lot, especially being on this show, talking about intermittent fasting for so long, I know in my own personal journey and I'll be curious to hear about you as well, Vanessa. When I started fasting, I did chew all the gums. It was like training wheels. It was like a nice way for me to get used to the fasted state and sort of like Ben, I felt like it was really working for me, although it was bad. We had a conversation recently on the show about different artificial sweeteners and I would like== do you remember the dessert gums? Did you ever have those, the Dessert Delights or something? Vanessa, it was like Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Did you watch that movie growing up? 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Of course, yes.

Melanie Avalon: They had this like Extra Dessert Delights. They had a cinnamon roll and they had an apple pie and a strawberry shortcake and it literally tasted like you were eating that dessert. I mean, it was magical. It was like Wonka level and it was bad. I would go through like he said I think he used the word eat in this question. I felt like I was eating a whole pack and I would often get GI distress as well, which was a fun time. So, my thoughts on all of it are I'm like pausing in the ideal world. I don't think it's ideal. And I know for me, on the flipside of not chewing these gums and having these flavors during the fast, it is so much better for me, so much better. I also used the training wheels with coffee and tea, really making it really sweet and flavored. And it was kind of like extending the eating window into the fast and just making the fast a non-caloric version of the eating window in a way.

It did work for me. It did help me transition to fasting. So, I can't tell people don't do it because it worked for me. And I know it works for people. Long term, though, I feel much better again not being that way and actually experiencing the fast naturally. And I do have, so it sounds like for Ben it doesn't create more cravings and appetites. Or maybe it is maybe if you cut it out, you'll realize that you don't have any appetite or cravings while fasting. And maybe this is the thing that's actually keeping that present and as long as you're doing it's going to stay there. I might bet money [chuckles] on that. So as far as the actual, is it ruining the benefits of intermittent fasting? 

Well, one, these foods or these gums, they actually do have calories oftentimes like they feel like they're zero calories. But when you're having like a whole pack, I think legally they can have a certain amount of calories and still label it as zero. So, it'll stay zero, but it might have a few. And then if you're having a whole pack that can actually add up. You are sending your body signals of eating something. So, it's kind of like mixed messages to your body, I do think, because people will say, that if you take in artificially sweetened things that it does just stop all the benefits of fasting. And I don't agree with that because if you're not taking in any-- I just said that maybe you are taking in some calories with it. But if you're not, I still think you will get benefits of the fast. It just might be harder. 

I think for a lot of people, it will make their body more reluctant to sort of really tap into that fat burning state because it's constantly sort of waiting for what it perceives as the need for something sweet or sugar. I think it can still create a blood sugar roller coaster for a lot of people even if they've been fasted for a while. This would actually be a good chance to try something like a CGM. You could see, Ben, when you're having these cravings and when you chew the gum, what's actually happening with your blood sugar levels, that would be really cool to see. We love NutriSense, if you go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST you can get $30 off. As far as, autophagy, which he asked about and the other benefits-- well, first of all, autophagy, it's not this black and white on/off thing. And we also don't have a ton of information about the extent to which it ramps up on a timeline basis.

I think people make a lot of assumptions. They're like, "Oh, you're fasting. You have a lot of autophagy. You're not fasting. You don't have autophagy." And that's just not the case. You literally have autophagy going on 24/7. And it can get ramped up by certain things like fasting and exercise and calorie restriction so it's hard to know. I don't know, it's hard to know if there's an effect on autophagy from chewing gum or something like that. I would think it's still going on, but it's hard to know. My long takeaway for all of that rambling is that I think you're still getting benefits. I think for a lot of people, it's going to make it substantially harder, and they'll feel probably a lot better on the flipside. And you might find for you, Ben, you said that you still want to lose a few pounds. It might be that you could cut out this gum and keep everything the same and you might actually find that you lose the weight. That's very possible. It would be a fun thing to experiment with. What are your thoughts, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I agree with most of what you'd say. Yes, autophagy is occurring, like, every night as long as you are closing your eating window further enough away from bedtime to actually get a lot of that repair and restoration. But autophagy gets deeper at night and it can get really deep if you do an actual, like, just water only fast. And the research done on that in humans is measuring the autophagy genes and it seems to ramp up to significantly greater levels between 36 to 72 hours of pure water fasting. So that's like a whole different kind of fasting, in my opinion, than the daily intermittent fasting where you're getting-- I think I agree with you in the sense that you're getting greater cell turnover in that time, that you're not consuming food in that time that you are fasted.

A lot of the benefits that are talked about on this podcast and in the literature on just fasting and what happens, I think it occurs more so in the state of not stimulating insulin that much, but you probably can still get a small fraction of the benefits. But if your main goal, Ben, is weight loss and you're getting there, you're counting your macros as well, and your calories, and you're also finding intermittent fasting helps you to just stick to your calories and macros for the day, which a lot of people find it really supportive of, then I think you're doing great, and I really wouldn't worry about it too much. If you're in a situation where you're like, "Wow, I really want to spend some time ramping up autophagy, maybe doing a deeper cellular cleanse, mitophagy, getting all that stuff really going on. I would maybe do a longer, like an extended fast once a year or something like that for the purposes just of like autophagy, mitophagy, cellular renewal, anti-aging, etc.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it just in the day to day of intermittent fasting. Because like you said, Melanie, we just don't have enough information yet on what's really happening. But we know, okay, you're chewing gum, you're not eating protein, so you're not stimulating mTOR. You're probably still in that AMPK pathway of being in the fastest state of being in that catabolic state of breaking things down, tearing certain things down, repairing them, recycling some proteins, etc. But it's just hard to know exactly how much, like you were saying.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. It's interesting because he [chuckles] clearly really feels good with what he's doing. So, I think that's amazing and I love that he's fasting and getting benefits that he does perceive. He won't ever know, though, unless he cuts out the gum if there're even more benefits beyond that, you just won't know unless you try. I don't think you're ruining most of the benefits, but I think you'll get more benefits if you cut it out. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, perfect answer. 

Melanie Avalon: Perfect answer, okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And when you submit the questions, feel free to insert your favorite emojis so we can see your personality. 

Vanessa Spina: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: Please start putting your favorite emoji at the end so we can know. The show notes for this episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode326 and that will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: That was everything. It was so much fun. I absolutely love the questions and I'm excited to answer more in the next one. 

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Well, have a fabulous night and I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much, Melanie. Talk to you next week. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jul 02

Episode 324: Air Purification, Biking, Protein Intake & Exercise, Bolus Intake Of Protein, Allulose, Monk Fruit, Erythritol, Stevia, Hormones, Blood Sugar, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get NY Strip Steak For Free In Every Box For 1 Year Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Flank Steak For Free In Every Box For 3 Months Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Go To carolbike.com And Use The Code MELANIEAVALON To Get $100 Off!

AVALONX BERBERINE: This Natural, Potent Anti-Inflammatory Plant Alkaloid Reduces Blood Sugar And Blood Lipids, Aids Weight Loss, Supports A Healthy Body Composition, Stimulates AMPK And Autophagy, Benefits Gut Bacteria And GI Health, And More! Help Us Release What Works Best For You! On 7/07 At 7pm EST Select Your Favorite Option For The Pre-Launch Of The Berberine Big Bottle Subscription! 
AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At Avalonx.Us/Emaillist! Get 10% Off Avalonx.Us And Mdlogichealth.Com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Go To toneprotein.com To Stay Up To Date On Vanessa's New Protein Supplement!

Listener Q&A: Lori - What does our body do with a bolus of protein if we have a shorter feeding window?

Listener Q&A: Samantha - Have you heard of Allulos?

Allulose in human diet: the knowns and the unknowns

Allulose for the attenuation of postprandial blood glucose levels in healthy humans: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Effects of D-allulose on glucose tolerance and insulin response to a standard oral sucrose load: results of a prospective, randomized, crossover study

Allulose Attenuated Age‐Associated Sarcopenia via Regulating IGF‐1 and Myostatin in Aged Mice

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm great. Where should we start? I feel like it's been so long. 

Vanessa Spina: I know. I've really missed podcasting with you. I was listening to today's episode, and just been really enjoying. Listening back to our episodes, it was just funny, because I remember when you first announced that you were going to be changing the host, and you and I first started talking, and I was so excited to be cohosting with you, but a tiny little part of me was like, "I'm going to miss listening [unintelligible [00:01:49]," but it's actually still quite fun to listen even though I already know what the answers are going to be, it's still fun. So, yeah, I'm really glad that we're back. 

Melanie Avalon: I have so much fun. I was telling you this right before how I was talking with a friend yesterday and we were talking about the concept of loneliness and having connections and-- Well, actually, we're talking-- I was reading about this as well how especially men, I think, loneliness becomes more of an epidemic for them, especially when they age, and it's hard for them to find friend groups. But in any case, I was reflecting on how the people I get to hang out with daily in my work are also my best friends like you, and Scott, our supplement partner, and all the things. So, I'm really grateful for that. 

Vanessa Spina: I am too. It makes it so much fun. I'm going to work at night and I'm so excited. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I know. It's been so long. I just want to update listeners. I am still really, really obsessed now that I've used it some more with this CAROL AI Bike.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like my gym. It's amazing. 

Vanessa Spina: I remember you said you were really into it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Because I think last time I talked about it, I just started it. I'm actually able to do it a couple times a week now, and it's just so easy. Basically for listeners, it's like HIIT, H-I-I-T, interval training, but it's called REHIT because it's even more efficient and it uses AI and the whole workout takes eight minutes. I was saying before, it acts like you're a hunter-gatherer walking in the woods, and then a tiger comes, and it yells at you, and you run. It's amazing. So, people are really looking to optimize their metabolic health and fitness and are not gym goers intense like me, then definitely check it out. The code MELANIEAVALON will get you a $100 off of that. It's called CAROL AI. So, if you go to carolbike.com, you can learn about it, and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you a $100 off. I'm wondering if they'll be at the Biohacking Conference, which is next week, Vanessa. Oh, my goodness. I'm so scared. How do you travel so intensely? Give me your skills.

Vanessa Spina: I'm lucky that my parents brought me up traveling a lot. We did such long flights. But I always find packing to be challenging because there're so many micro decisions involved and you have to anticipate all these different scenarios and things. And now that we have a one-year-old, almost two-year-old, it adds a whole other [giggles] dimension to packing of anticipating their needs as well. And for me that's the toughest part about doing it. But I think I just try to plan as best as I can. Some of my friends make spreadsheet things, [giggles] especially when we have more than one kid, you know? My best friend, Jess, she has spreadsheet that she'll send to me on her packing methods and things like that, because there're just so many things you have to remember. But at the end of the day, if you need something, you can probably find it locally unless you're going to the middle of the jungle or something. But what is it about travel that do you find the most intimidating or challenging? 

Melanie Avalon: Mostly, how it affects [giggles] the circadian rhythms of everything in my body. So, my digestion primarily, my sleep. It's really those things. So, it's not the actual travel. It is a lot to bring all your stuff, like, all my supplements, and all my red-light devices, and clothing and shoes, yeah. So, it's more like the environment I would like to have. Although, although, I just learned, when I interviewed-- Who was saying this? Oh, when I interviewed David Milburn at HypoAir, he makes a certain type of air purifier. Did you know this, Vanessa? He said that, if you call hotels and ask for the hypoallergenic rooms that a lot of hotels have special rooms for people with issues. And so, they'll use more cleaning stuff. Did you know that? 

Vanessa Spina: No. That's really interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: He said most hotels do it and it'll have more air purification. The reason he knows about it is they actually outfit hotels with their technology for these either rooms or floors. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I was like, "That's a--" I'm glad we're talking about this. After this, I'm going to-- 

Vanessa Spina: You could do that for your trip. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm going to do that. I'll report back. 

Vanessa Spina: I was just reading about how air purity can affect the mitochondria and how important it is to have a HEPA air filter, which I've started looking into at least for our bedroom, because you spend so much time in there breathing every night. Yeah, I'm looking into one now. Apparently, it has to be HEPA designated in order to meet certain standards that would be beneficial to your mitochondria. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. So, that's really interesting. So, in the study, they were looking at HEPA filters specifically? 

Vanessa Spina: This is in a new book I'm reading about Mitochondria and the Future of Medicine. It's really interesting, because they were listing out the top things that can affect your mitochondria. It's one of the topics I talk about on other podcasts when people interview me is, like, the ways that you can optimize your mitochondria. So, I'm always trying to learn more things. The author's number one thing when it came to optimizing mitochondria was getting a HEPA air filter. So, I was like, "Well, if it's our number one thing, then I think I need to look into this." It's because, as you know, the mitochondria need oxygen to make ATP and the ingestion of carbon monoxide is so bad for the mitochondria because it's basically a lack of oxygen. So, the ATP production stops and this buildup of electron happens. So, it's so crucial to mitochondria to have pure oxygen. 

Melanie Avalon: So, that's really fascinating. When I interview David, I can't wait to air that episode, I learned so much about air purification, because apparently, there're multiple different modalities and methods. And so, HEPA, for example, has to do with particle size, so physically capturing particles in the air. The HEPA designation is designating that it can capture a certain-- I don't know if it's a certain particle size or number, but that's what it's addressing, basically. I should pull up the charts I had from when I interviewed him. So, in my apartment, I have multiple units that use HEPA air filter. So, I use Alen, I have AirDoctor, and then there're other technologies. So, his technology, HypoAir, it's crazy because it's like this really small little unit but what it does is it actually-- it's technology-- 

Now I'm forgetting exactly the technology. But it basically acts offensively instead of defensively. So, if you think of HEPA, HEPA is being like a defense because it's taking the particles out of the air. This actually changes something in the air that actually goes out and kills things. So, it kills mold spores and viruses on surfaces. And so, the air doesn't have to go through the unit for it to kill things everywhere in the room, which is really fascinating. Then there're other filters, a lot of HEPA filters will have carbon filters as well, and that helps absorb odors and gases. Yeah, there's just so much to air purification and I'm obsessed with it. I have so many units in my apartment. 

Vanessa Spina: Do you also have plants? Because that's something that I know there're certain plants that can be natural air purifiers for you? 

Melanie Avalon: I do. Well, I have you know my cucumbers-- I have cucumbers, I have a Dollar Tree, I have quite a few different plants. I know there are specific ones that are supposed to better, like, better at that. I'm not sure, you know, if any of mine meet those qualifications, but I do like the plants. Oh, I saw on your Instagram, your beautiful-- was that your deck that you did? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, we just redid the stone on the deck. So, we have a terrace going around, like, the front of our place and then on the side. And then we have a little garden on the side, and we are replacing the stone. It turned out really nice. They got it all done in one day. It just upgraded the side, because it was just like an older stone that had been there. Our building is actually quite new, but it just had been a bit weathered, so we replaced it. It looks all pretty now with the flowers and everything, but we actually live right next to a small forest. So, if you saw in the stories, there's just forest everywhere, and there's, basically, our deck, and then there's just forest. So, it's really amazing because we're still in the city too. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's best of both worlds. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, exactly. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's really amazing. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous. City and forest altogether?

Vanessa Spina: That's why I was telling you. We were so excited. Speaking of biking, when she kicked the episode off with CAROL Bike, we were so excited to get our bikes out. I keep telling you about it, because it's actually been three years since I've gotten to bike. Pete and I, that's what we would do every weekend. We would get on our bikes, go down, bike all along the river, stop somewhere, like, a cute little burger place and get burgers, and then get back on the bike. It was just so much fun. We did that all summer. And then, because I was pregnant and then had Luca, we haven't been able to. He's finally old enough that we got him a little bike seat, and he's on the bike seat on the back of Pete's bike, and so they go in front and I'm in the back, so I can watch him and interact with him, and we're just back at it finally it's absolute heaven just going through the woods. Because I was saying, the woods are all around us, we can just go up into the forest here, and bike for hours, and then discover little hidden castles in the woods and-- 

Melanie Avalon: Hidden castles?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there was one-- Yeah, there were . 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, real hidden castles? Are they abandoned? 

Vanessa Spina: Czech has the highest density of castles per capita in Europe. So, there're castles everywhere. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, okay, wait, let's pause for one sec. Okay, so like people live in these castles? 

Vanessa Spina: Well, some of them people still live. The original families will hand them down and they'll live in part of the castle, but that's what we do a lot of times on the weekend is go visit a castle. You can go to a tour of the interior. A lot of them still have original furniture in it. It's absolutely stunning. They have these incredible Venetian chandeliers from Murano in Italy. It's just so beautiful and so much fun. [giggles] We go to a lot of them on the weekends and we're starting to do that now that we're able to be more mobile and stuff. But there's one that we went to, we were just talking about this weekend, we stumbled upon and it looks like it used to have the Knights Templar or something there. We found another one that had all this grotto inside, and then we went inside, and there was all the Knights Templar relics and all of their, just like, clothes that they wore. It's just amazing, like, just find this stuff in the middle of nowhere sometimes. 

Melanie Avalon: Woah. That's such an adventure. 

Vanessa Spina: It's so much fun. Now we can take Luca with us. So, I want to get that CAROL Bike you're talking about, but we also love biking outside in the summer. It's just so amazing to be in nature. And now that we're back at it, it's all I think about during the week. It's like, I can't wait to go biking on Saturday and Sunday. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Now it's reminding me too growing up-- When I was growing up in Atlanta, I'm going to have to go back and find this. I'm going to do this. I wonder if it's still there. I remember outside of our neighborhood, there was a castle. It was like a person's normal house, but they made it look like a castle. It had like a moat, it had a moat. [laughs] I'm going to go find that by myself. When I first moved back here, I was like, "I'm going to go look at my childhood house." So, I drove to it and it was in a not the safest part of town now. Everything has changed. So, I drove and I just parked, and I just sat there for a second, and everybody was looking at me, and then I left. [laughs] But I looked at it for-- It's so crazy to see things from that, like, from your childhood. This was, like, my real childhood. This is until I was probably four or so. 

Vanessa Spina: And you're thinking of moving, right? 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I should move to Austin. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm so jealous. I would love to live there. 

Melanie Avalon: You should. No, not really. You're in Prague with castles. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: I know. We could form this community with all the biohackers and people who are interested in health optimization, create some, like, what is it, like, a compound. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Commune? No, is that bad? I don't know the correct terminology. Yeah. No, I am seriously considering it. I feel like everybody I know now or a lot of the people I know in this sphere, all live in Austin. It's the place to be. Is it even hotter than here, Georgia? I don't know. 

Vanessa Spina: Probably similar. But I know in the summer, when I would go to KetoCon, it was insanely hot. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it more dry though? It's drier than the south. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm not sure exactly, but I just know that you just go in the AC because it's so hot. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we shall see. Okay, next episode, I have to tell you about the wedding, because I realized it's been so long since we've talked. 

Vanessa Spina: I actually was planning to ask you about it. Okay. Let's save that recap for the next one. 

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Okay. So, one quick announcement before we jump in. My berberine supplement, we're we are launching subscriptions, and we launched a large bottle for serrapeptase a few months ago, and that went really well. We want to do it for berberine as well. It was easier with serrapeptase. With berberine, it's hard to tell how often people are taking it and how much they're taking. So, we're going to do a trial subscription thing where it's like you guys get to help us know what you want. So, this ends July 17th. So, you have a little bit longer, so grab it now. You can get either two bottles for two months, so the normal bottles or two bottles for three months. And you will get grandfathered in for life on a major discount. I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but I don't want to say because I don't want to be wrong. But it'll be basically one of the biggest discounts you can get and you'll be grandfathered in. So, as long as you keep the subscription, you'll keep that discount. 

Then based on how that goes, we'll make a large bottle based on what's more popular. So, it's going to help us know what you guys want with a large bottle, and it also gives people the chance to get on a berberine subscription. It's really shocking. I mean this. I thought when I made my berberine that it would be the same. I was taking Thorne before. I thought it would look the same on my CGM, because I like Thorne. It's crazy that effect I've seen on my personal blood sugar levels using AvalonX berberine, and other people have said this as well, like, friends, other influencers. So, if you're looking to help your blood sugar and work with that, it also has antiaging effects because it affects the AMPK pathway, it can help with cholesterol, it can help with gut microbiome. It's really an awesome supplement. So, avalonx.us, you can get that subscription now. You can get updates at avalonx.us/emailist. And you can get text updates with a 20% off coupon code when you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And now with all of that, before we jump in, Vanessa, do you want to give your landing page for your protein powder that's coming out in the future? 

Vanessa Spina: I am so excited about Tone protein, which is a scientifically formulated protein that is optimized for building muscle, triggering muscle protein synthesis. I'm going to be sharing more details on how it works. But if you would like to get on the exclusive VIP list, you'll receive a very special launch discount, and you just need to sign up with your name and email at toneprotein.com. That's toneprotein.com and I'm sure you'll link that up in the show notes for everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited for you. I think about you now all the time. Last night, I was listening to an interview all about protein powders. Oh, it was about protein powders and BCAA. It was about everything protein and they were talking about their products, and I was like, "Vanessa's going to have the best product ever." 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you so much. That means so much to me. 

Melanie Avalon: Aren't you focusing on formulating it to be the--? I don't want to put words in your mouth. I feel very good about your formulation. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to be sharing more details on how it works, but it is-- Yeah, it's being scientifically optimized for building muscle in a way that no other protein is doing or has done. So, I'm really excited about it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. Okay. So, yes, friends. Okay. So, on that note, shall we jump into questions for today? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I can't wait to get into them. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a question from Lori, and this was actually from Facebook. I think it was probably when I was asking for questions for you in Facebook. So, Lori says, "What does our body do with the bolus of protein, speaking of protein, if we have a shorter feeding window two to four hours? I've been trying to eat 100 grams of protein a day in my feeding window, but I have heard on other podcasts like, Huberman Lab, that it is best to take in the protein in two to three separate meals of 40 to 50 grams each meal, advantages/disadvantages. And then she also wants to know about the timing of protein intake with exercise." 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's such a great question. I'm sure you have lots of thoughts on this as well, Melanie. But I'll give you my opinion on the pros and cons. Optimally, if you were just going for building the most amount of muscle possible, so in the case of someone who's a professional body builder, for example, or just someone who really wants to build the most muscle possible regardless of other goals, that's your number one goal, you would want to eat at least 30 grams of protein as many times as you possibly could in the day. Now, most of us are not trying to be professional bodybuilders, but every time you eat a certain amount of protein, so around 30 grams of protein from lean chicken breast, or steak, or pork, or eggs, you are increasing the level of leucine in your blood, which is an amino acid. It's part of the branched-chain amino acids, but it actually has the biggest or strongest effect on triggering mTOR for muscle protein synthesis. And so, if you have under this amount of leucine, it's called the leucine threshold, basically. If you exceed it, which is for most people around 3 grams, it can be somewhere for 2.5 to 3 grams depending on how old you are. The younger you are, you can basically just look at protein and you'll build muscle. But if you're over 30, then you're probably going to need at least maybe 2.7 to 3 grams of leucine at that meal.

So, what that means is that, when you exceed that threshold, your body starts making muscle. The thing is, if you eat more than what you need to trigger muscle protein synthesis, you are not going to trigger it more. You can only trigger it once in one sitting. So, if you eat 30 grams of protein, you'll trigger it once. If you eat 100 grams of protein at that meal, you'll also trigger it once. So, if you're eating all of your protein in just one meal a day, then if your goal isn't to build more muscle than anything else, if you have other goals. For example, longevity or optimizing just body composition overall. There're so many different goals that you could have, then that's fine. 

But if your goal is to say put on 4 to 6 pounds of muscle in a year, you're going to be missing out on those opportunities. I would put it at the very minimum to split it up into two separate meals or three up to four being more optimal if that's your goal. So, some people say, if you eat all of that protein in a bolus that-- I've interviewed amazing protein scientists like, Dr. Don Layman, who say that, "Basically, the rest for every 100 grams of protein that you eat, you get about 60 grams of glucose," like, basically, the protein just turns to glucose. But if you are eating it at separate meals, most of that protein is going to go towards building muscle. So, it depends on what you're optimizing for. I would say, at the very least, if your goal is 100 grams approaching a day to split it up into two at minimum up to three separate meals. If you're doing two, like, 40 to 50 grams, like you said, if you're doing three meals a day, then 30 to 35 grams per meal. 

In terms of timing, protein intake with exercise, for most people who are not professional athletes, your anabolic window lasts about 24 hours. So, you could eat protein even the day before, like say, if you had protein at dinner and then work out the next day in the morning, and that protein is still going to go towards helping you lay down new muscle fibers at that workout. So, it's usually about 24 hours for anyone who isn't a professional athlete. Professional athletes are people who have been doing, for example, resistance training for years, they may need to time it a little bit closer within two hours to four hours of the meal. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That was amazing. Quick question. So, at the very beginning, you said, basically, ideally, if you're wanting to get maximum muscle, everything that you would be eating this protein as much as you can throughout the day, what is the actual window of each of those times? 

Vanessa Spina: You would basically eat when you wake up. Professional bodybuilders, they'll eat proteins six, seven, eight times a day. That's why they're just always eating, like, the whole pretty much every two hours. So, I think within a couple hours, you could trigger it again. So, for example, in the Paul Arciero, the protein pacing, they had very specific time windows where they were eating that protein, every two hours to three hours. I think sometimes, three hours to four hours, but making sure to get it at regular intervals throughout the day. That's typically what aesthetic bodybuilders do. They wake up, have a protein meal at breakfast and some of them will even have a protein shake before going to bed, because it can also help with retaining muscle. 

Melanie Avalon: That sounds very exhausting. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a job. It's a job in itself, like, you're carrying around chicken breast with you everywhere you go. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, I agree with everything that you said. I will say, because I know people get worried about muscle retention with fasting, for example, specifically. It's a two-part thing, because you were talking about the anabolic window of exercise lasting for 24 hours. So, not the same thing because that's related to exercise but, for example, with intermittent fasting, a lot of people will eat all of their protein within a shorter window and they're worried about potential muscle loss. So, this is just N of 1 for me and again, I eat a protein a lot, and I do eat it over quite a few hours. I wonder your thoughts on this Vanessa. 

I eat so much protein and I wonder if that's why I've been able to, not just maintain but build muscle with daily intermittent fasting window for years and years. Do you think most people would struggle with their protein intake in a shorter window? 

Vanessa Spina: Sorry. The question is, would people struggle--? 

Melanie Avalon: So, I think about this all the time, because I eat such a high-protein diet and I eat it in a "one-meal-a-day situation" and I have for a decade. I've had zero issues with muscle maintenance and zero issues with gaining muscle. So, I know it's possible, basically, in a shorter window. But I also wonder is the effect, is it because I'm eating so much protein, more than most people would. I just wonder how in the practical day to day life, do more people who do a shorter eating window find issues with this rather than not and your experience with all people you've worked with?

Vanessa Spina: I think because you're younger, that's part of it. You don't need to consume as much. Especially when you're in your 20s and 30s, you just don't need to consume as much protein and you don't need to consume as much leucine to just maintain what you have. Because every day you have a certain amount of muscle protein breakdown occurring. You just want to make sure that you trigger muscle protein synthesis enough, so that it at least equals the amount of muscle protein breakdown. You'll be fine with just one bolus of protein what you're doing every day. I don't want to say this will happen for you, but in 20 years or maybe 30 years, you might need to do two meals, I don't know. You might be fine because you're consuming such a big bolus of protein that you're probably hitting 5 grams, 6 grams, 7 grams of leucine, which is what you need when you're in your 50s and 60s. So, it could be fine just for maintenance and building. But if you were going to go be a full-time bodybuilder, you probably would find that you would need to do more than one meal just to compete with the amount of muscle that other people are putting on by consuming protein all day long.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Well, you hit on exactly what I've wondered, because whenever I hear people talk about this, and I told you before the show that I was listening to an episode all about this last night, and they talk about which I agree with and believe that as you age, it's more of an issue basically after-- Yeah, what I just said. I'm like, "But am I the unicorn here?" Because I just like to seeing myself eating all this protein for like ever. I just love it. 

Vanessa Spina: Well, do you know how many grams you do in a day? 

Melanie Avalon: I should probably check. I literally eat pounds and pounds of meat and seafood every night. I could throw it in Cronometer really quick. 

Vanessa Spina: Maybe you're somewhere between 150 grams to 200 grams. Think one pound is like 50-- usually one pound is around 50 grams. So, if you're doing three pounds, it'd be around 150 grams, fours pounds would be like around 200 grams. 

Melanie Avalon: This is a pound of protein, like, but salmon's fattier is 99 grams. Is that right? Let's see, tilapia 120 grams, trout 92 grams. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Maybe I'm thinking, maybe it's closer to 100 grams per pound. 

Melanie Avalon: That's what I always thought with chicken, but chicken's very lean. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, chicken has so much protein in it. It's crazy. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I would say it's probably in the 200s of protein grams. 

Vanessa Spina: It may be also because you're not just eating it all within half an hour or an hour. You are eating it within your-- You have four hour or five-hour eating windows, right, something like that? So, maybe it's also spreading it out a little bit. So, you have this constant trickle of amino acids. 

Melanie Avalon: I think that does need to be considered, because I probably am digesting that meal for a long time. So, it's probably a slower release of the protein of the amino acids.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because it takes four hours to five hours after a meal for them all to be broken down.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I did not mean to turn this into about me. I just been thinking a lot about that with the aging aspect. Interestingly, last night in the interview I was listening to, he was saying with leucine that it can actually turn catabolic. Does that make any sense to you? 

Vanessa Spina: Mm-mm. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I meant to take notes, such a fail. I was like, "I've asked Vanessa about this."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Ask me when you find out or send me the podcast. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I will, I will. 

Vanessa Spina: It would be catabolic if you eat a meal and you don't get enough leucine. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to relisten and see what he was saying about it specifically. It's really interesting. He was talking about the EAAs and people used to focus on just leucine, val-- What are the three? Leucine, valine, and isoleucine.

Vanessa Spina: Isoleucine. Yeah, isoleucine is like a secondary triggered after leucine, but leucine, like, by itself. It just blows away the other ones for muscle protein synthesis activation. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, I think it was in the context of-- I will revisit it and circle back.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's really interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Does that answer her question mostly? 

Vanessa Spina: I think so. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. 

Vanessa Spina: All right. Our next question is from Samantha Tuff. "Morning. Just a quick hey y'all, I hope you are doing well. I'm sorry about the trolls of the universe. They're crazy, and jealous, and you guys are rocking it. Keep it up." 

Melanie Avalon: I'll jump in to explain what she's talking about there, because I don't think you were here, Vanessa. Cynthia and I had a few episodes where we were talking about the environment of social media and just some of the negative energy we had experienced. So, I think this was Samantha reaching out to be supportive, which is very kind. So, thank you, Samantha. 

Vanessa Spina: She asks, "Have you heard of allulose? I am going to do some research, but thought who best to send down a new rabbit hole than Melanie. Have a fantastic weekend. Hearts." Thanks, Sam Tuff.

Melanie Avalon: I like that you read the emoji hearts. We love emojis, by the way, if listeners ever want to add emojis.

Vanessa Spina: More emojis  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Just go whatever speaks to you. [giggles] Wait. Question, Vanessa. When you're deciding what emojis to use, do you do what I do, which is I just look at all them, I'm like, "What speaks to me right now"? 

Vanessa Spina: For sure. It's like a catalog of feelings. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like, I was talking with a friend the other day, and we needed to come up with an emoji to communicate something specific between us. It was so fun. I was like, "I just need to look through the catalog. I need to pick the one that will embody this vibe." What did we do before emojis? 

Vanessa Spina: I don't know, but whenever there's an update, I'm so excited. Sometimes, I'll just scroll through to see if there're any new ones that I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, there's this."

Melanie Avalon: You further convinced me to update, so that I can see, when I get the question mark boxes, it kills me. 

Vanessa Spina: So exciting. There's a new one which is, like, angel wings really into it right now. 

Melanie Avalon: You know my sister, because I couldn't see what my sister was sending me, and I told her, so she sent me screenshot, and it was this beautiful new blue shade of heart. 

Vanessa Spina: That's the heart I keep using. That's the one you're like I can't see what you're sending me. It's always the pretty blue heart." 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Okay, I'm going to update. I'm going to join you in the blue heart, angel wing club.

Vanessa Spina: That's way better than just seeing a box question mark.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It reminds me of Mario though. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know. [laughs] My favorite. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, back to the question. Thank you, Sam, for your question. It's funny. So, I've had this one in the lineup for a little bit, but I didn't answer it because I thought we had just answered it. But then I remembered when we answered this, it was when Gin was the cohost. So, it's been a while. So, time to revisit this question. I went down the rabbit hole as requested and learned a lot. So, before I jump into this, Vanessa, do you use allulose?

Vanessa Spina: I use stevia and monk fruit, but we're actually researching allulose right now for the protein. So, I am super excited to hear your answer on this. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, this is exciting. Wow, this is in real life. 

Vanessa Spina: My brother randomly this weekend was like, "I think you should use allulose in your protein powder." 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. This is exciting. This is perfect. Well, I have noticed probably throughout the past year-ish, year and a half that I feel like allulose as the sweetener has skyrocketed. Well, it used to be artificial sweeteners. Let me know if you agree with this timeline. I feel like, first, it was artificial sweeteners. Then it was erythritol and stevia and they of floated there for a little bit. And then stevia, I feel got more popular. And then monk fruit came in. Then it was like stevia and monk fruit. 

Vanessa Spina: What do you like? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, back in the day, I don't use any of them really now. I did like stevia, especially when I was struggling with Lyme disease. I read a study about how stevia was anti-Lyme. So, I went through a phase where I was all the stevia, like, on everything. I don't know, I like stevia and I liked monk fruit. How about you? 

Vanessa Spina: I like stevia or stevia. I never had any issues with it. I like that it's made from a plant. But there was a concerning report out recently that it can negatively affect male fertility. I was talking about it with Scott, because I was like, "Maybe we should look into a different one." I said, first, someone commented that on my post and I was like, "Do you have the source?" They didn't reply back. But I asked Scott and he was like, "Yeah. I saw that report." So, I was like, "Send it to me, please." So, I don't know yet if there's any truth to it or validity at all or if it was one of those things where there was a weird clickbait headline like the thing that happened with erythritol, which was, yeah, crazy. 

Melanie Avalon: What happened with erythritol? That's ringing a bell a little bit. 

Vanessa Spina: There was a study that came out this, I think it was sometime around Christmas time maybe or the early in the New Year, and it was a study showing that it increased risk for cardiac events. But when all these people in the community started breaking it down like, Robb Wolf, and all these people. Dr. Ryan Lowery, I know he did a really comprehensive breakdown and he was just explaining why. In the study, it turned out that the body can actually endogenously produce erythritol when people are obese. So, that's actually what was happening is that, there were higher levels of erythritol. Because of that, more so obesity was linked with cardiac events or a prior probability of that. They were somehow trying to paint erythritol the sweetener as the issue. But there're a lot of different breakdowns that were really good explaining it. But of course, the headline, I had so many people send it to me who just saw the headline and were freaking out about it, I don't really use it, but I have recommended it in my cookbooks and stuff. So, I was really glad to see that what people were saying it was. 

Melanie Avalon: As far as taste goes, I do really like the taste of erythritol. And then, yes, stevia. I remember, I was using monk fruit a lot and then I was reading about how it could possibly mess with hormones, and I was like, "Oh, it's always something. Always something." 

Vanessa Spina: So, allulose might be the  

Melanie Avalon: So, what is allulose? So, actually, it is a sugar. It's a low energy monosaccharide sugar. It's naturally found in some fruits, so kiwis, figs, and raisins, but in very small amounts. And then compared to sugar, it's about 70% of the sweetness of sugar. It's 0.2 calories a gram, so that's 95% less calories compared to straight up sucrose what we think of as white sugar. So, here's the thing. It is similar to fructose and it actually uses the exact same transport and distribution pathways that fructose uses, but we don't have enzymes to metabolize it. So, basically, what happens is, it is a sugar, it tastes sweet, it goes down the fructose pathway, we don't extract energy from it. It actually almost completely extracted with the help of the kidneys and doesn't provide any calories. So, that's really cool. 

On top of that, so not only is it sweet without any calories, there's actually been a lot of studies on its effect on blood sugar levels and insulin levels. It seems to have really beneficial effects. So, it actually has anti-diabetic effects. The majority or a lot of the studies especially in the beginning were in Asian populations, but they were pretty consistently showing this data. I found a newer study. It was called Effects of D-allulose on glucose tolerance and insulin response to a standard oral sucrose load: results of a prospective, randomized, crossover study. So, this was a 2021 study. They looked at a Western population to see the effects of allulose and they compared it. 

So, basically, the participants were given a standard load. So, they were given a basic load of normal sugar, 50 grams and then they were randomized to either a placebo or they were given more and more doses of allulose, so 2.5 grams, 5 grams, 7.5 grams, 10 grams. It was a crossover treatment, so people did both things. And then they measured glucose and insulin levels to see the effects. They found it was dose dependent. Meaning, the higher the dose of allulose, the greater the effect of reducing blood sugar levels in the allulose group 30 minutes after the dose compared to the placebo. So, that is pretty cool. It didn't continue beyond that. They didn't have continued lower blood sugar after the 30-minute mark, but it did happen right after. Also, the insulin levels were trending towards lower as well.

Again, it's similar to the sugar, the insulin. Later on, it didn't have any effects, but it did immediately after the meal. So, their conclusion was that, I'll just read it to you. It said, " This is the largest study assessing the effects of D-allulose in Westerners demonstrating an early dose-dependent reduction in plasma glucose and insulin levels as well as decreased postprandial glucose and insulin excursion in subjects, oh, without diabetes." So, these were normal people. So, in addition to what I was saying about how the allulose is basically processed, but not processed by the body. There's also been a lot of other hypotheses. What's the plural of hypothesis? 

Vanessa Spina: Hypotheses. 

Melanie Avalon: Hypotheses. Hypotheses, I feel like I should know that for why this happens. It's like berberine. When I was researching berberine and I realized there're all these potential ways that it may be working. That seems to be the same with allulose. So, it may inhibit enzymes directly in the body, which suppress the glycemic response to carbs. It may also directly slow the absorption of glucose if it's there at the same time. So, basically, not only is it tricking the body, and tasting sweet, and not being metabolized, it might actually at the same time impede or stop the body from also absorbing any sugar taken with it. So, I've been reading about how people with blood sugar issues will actually add allulose to the carb meals to actually beneficially affect the absorption of the carbs as in slow it down or inhibit it a bit, which is very interesting. 

It has been shown to stimulate glycogen synthesis in the liver and also promote faster restoration of glycogen in the liver and muscles after exercise. That's really interesting. So, not only is it impeding carbohydrate absorption, it's also helping promote the actual glycogen in the liver, which is I feel like that's a little bit counterintuitive, but very interesting. And then it also induces glucagon like peptide 1, GLP-1 released for intestinal cells and can regulate glucose concentrations after glucose and allulose intake. So, yeah, it seems to have a lot of really cool facts. Then I went down the rabbit hole, because I was reading in one list of benefits where they said it had potential antiaging properties and I was like, "What?" So, then I went and looked that up. These are all in animal trials, but there was one trial in mice called Allulose Attenuated Age-Associated Sarcopenia via Regulating IGF-1 and Myostatin in Aged Mice and they found that allulose actually improved sarcopenia in mice, and enhanced the antioxidant properties, and it was all by altering mRNA in their bodies and affecting IGF-1. So, it might support muscle maintenance like we were talking about earlier. 

Another study, again, this was in yeast, they actually found that allulose affected, it might work as a calorie restriction mimetic. Meaning, it can send signaling to the body, like, a calorie restriction or fasting would do, specifically activating the AMPK pathway that we talk about a lot, which is you have the AMPK pathway and the mTOR pathway. AMPK, it's activated by things like calorie restriction, fasting, exercise, and it helps the body with repair, and it just has a lot of antiaging potential to it. Allulose might affect that as well. So, that was a lot there. But it sounds like allulose has a lot of potential benefits when it comes to blood sugar control, insulin and it's more practical because I know that was like a lot of sciency stuff. I think it bakes very similar to sugar. So, you can use it very similar to sugar in your goods, and it doesn't really have-- You've tried it, right, Vanessa, have you? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't actually tried it before. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so, it actually tastes very similar to sugar and acts the same. It doesn't really have any weird aftertaste at all. It's very surprising, actually. So, it seems to be a pretty cool supplement. I do have one concern about it, but before I do that, do you have any thoughts based on all of that? 

Vanessa Spina: Well, I'm feeling really good about it. And then I was doing a little bit of research, and it turns out that it's banned in Europe, because it's a potential carcinogen. Canada also, but there's also current applications to have allulose approved in Europe. So, it sounds like the most recent update is that, it's actually going through the process as a novel sugar for approval. This was back in September. It's going through this process, a novel foods process in order to gain approval and be able to be sold in the EU. I don't know if it's in Canada. It's definitely approved by the FDA. There're some German researchers that published a study in nature and they said that allulose has real potential to meet customers' needs in the EU when replacing sugar or sweeteners with different forms of sugar, and taste is one of the most important factors. As you were saying, it tastes good, followed by its glycemic effect, and then on insulin and then the price, dental health, and calorie content. So, it sounds like it might get approved, but it's not yet. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because I'm just googling carcinogen. I wonder what studies they're using, because I'm not finding any studies. Nothing's coming up for studies showing that it's a carcinogen.

Vanessa Spina: So, it just hasn't been approved for use yet in Canada or Europe, because it's considered a novel food, which means it hasn't been available long enough for sufficient testing according to the governments in Europe. So, it may have no carcinogenic effect at all. That was just one thing that I read, so maybe it's new and they need more studies in order to approach this. It sounds like they're just being a little more cautious with it, but it's been improved in the US by the FDA since 2012. So, it sounds like they just need more research, but these German researchers just submitted a study, and so it's going through the process. 

Melanie Avalon: Did it say the timing on that? 

Vanessa Spina: That was September of 2022, the most recent, September. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll be really curious to see how that unfolds. Studies were overwhelmingly positive. I did find one negative study and it was just hypothesizing. It was saying that, in vitro so not in vivo, but in vitro, basically, if they put this certain type of bacteria called [giggles] Klebsiella pneumoniae, which is an opportunistic human pathogen. So, basically, if they take this bacteria that we don't want flourishing in us and they put it in as a culture and they give it allulose, it uses the allulose, so they were saying that we need to make sure it doesn't support the growth of problematic bacteria. That was the only negative thing I could find. 

My thoughts, "negative," and this is all-- This is going to be the case, I think, with any artificially sweetened thing, which it's mostly after interviewing Mark Schatzker for his book-- Well, he wrote The Dorito Effect, but he also wrote The End of Craving. I don't know if I talked about this when you were on the show, but he talks about studies where they give people artificially sweetened beverages, where they were either calorie matched to the actual amount of sugar or not calorie matched. Does this ring a bell? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we talked about it before-- Yeah, it's like his theory that it's really just a mismatch in what you're signaling to the body is coming in and what is actually coming in that causes confusion with the metabolism.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, look at you. On top of it. Yeah, so, he talks about these really fascinating studies where basically when people were given mismatched beverages. If it was artificially sweetened and it actually had less calories than it tasted like it did, it actually stopped the people's [giggles] metabolisms. So, it's really ironic, because basically, they'd be taking in less calories, but their body thought it was sweeter and it freaked out and it downregulated the metabolic rate. So, his whole theory is, well, not his whole theory, he has a lot of theories. But one of his theories is that, artificially sweetened things might create confusion with the body. So, that is separate from allulose. That's just the concept in general of artificially sweetened things. But when it comes to actual allulose, it's overwhelming the positive studies on it. 

Vanessa Spina: I agree. I think it sounds overwhelmingly positive. My brother mentioned it, because he said, maybe it's the only sweetener that he can actually tolerate. I think that's also an issue that people have with these sweeteners is for some people they cause gastric distress. And so, yeah, if it's one that is well tolerated that would be a big plus too. 

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting and something to think about for the labeling if you do go this route and you'll come to this. I don't know if this will change, but when they label it on the packages, it has to be labeled as a carb, I believe. So, when you look at the label, it'll say that it has all these grams of sugar, but then you have to have a disclaimer saying that's from allulose and it's not metabolized. 

Vanessa Spina: I've seen that for sugar alcohols. I wonder if it would be the same for stevia or for all of them, because I would never consider stevia a carb.

Melanie Avalon: Stevia, no. Monk fruit, no. Sugar alcohols, yes, but labeled as a sugar alcohol. The problem with allulose is that you have to label it at least right now, it's labeled as a sugar. So, it's really confusing. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because it sounds like it technically is one, but your body just doesn't metabolize it. 

Melanie Avalon: It requires a lot of education and it requires a lot of disclaimers on the bag to let people know that. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you sharing all that incredible research on it and I'm sure listeners will as well, because it was so comprehensive. Thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: No. Thank you. I'm really excited for your journey of designing the protein and what you-- You have to keep as much as you can without giving things away. You have to let me know. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, definitely. I'm just so excited for the formulation. I think stevia probably is going to make the most sense. I'm super interested to learn about all of them. It sounds like everything. There're pros and cons with everything. But yeah, we just got to research it a little bit more. But it's so much fun to just be in that creative space with it. 

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I will say if I'm just putting on my forecast hat, I do see allulose being the future, like, it's the trend I've seen. So, I think it will become more and more popular. 

Vanessa Spina: I definitely have seen it trending more and more. So, I got to try it. Maybe I'll try it when we're in Denver, because I was pleasantly surprised with monk fruit. I tried that a couple of times at KetoCon, actually and I thought it was great. And Pete actually liked that one, he doesn't like the other one. So, I did get that one a little while for him. But it's great to see more stuff, more options available. Yeah, I personally use stevia most days, a little bit in my yogurt, sometimes in some water with lemon, like, make a lemonade, or in my protein shakes. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. This is so exciting. It's in real life, in real time. I feel like the audience is helping us develop the protein powder, so exciting. I love it. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, so many great questions on this episode. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, for listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions to the show, I remember we love emojis, just email questions@ifpodcast.com or go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode324, and those will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so that's super helpful. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. All right, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we wrap this up? 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to catch you all on the next episode. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. Talk to you next week. Bye. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Jun 18

Episode 322: Genetic Testing, Blood Testing, Food Allergies, Medical Care, Leptin Resistance, Insulin Resistance, Nutrient Deficiency, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

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go to toneprotein.com to stay up to date on vanessa's new protein supplement!

Listener Q&A: dina - Blood Test

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INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

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Listener Q&A: Niki - Leptin Resistance

Mitochondrial Health Series: Fructose & Dr. Rick Johnson Recap (Part 1) Optimal Protein Podcast (Fast Keto) with Vanessa Spina

How to Start the Leptin Reset and Regain Leptin Sensitivity

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it's been so long.

Vanessa Spina: It feels like ages. Like, I'm so happy that we're back at it.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. So, what is new in your life? You've been gallivanting about the world?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. We just got back from absolutely stunning Greek Islands, which is one of our favorite places to go. And we go to this absolutely beautiful resort. It's actually a design hotel, but it's for families and young kids mostly, so everyone there has a one- or two-year-old or multiples. And it's really fun because it makes it so easy and casual to go to eat because they have baby seats already set up. And then if your kid makes a mess, like, you don't care, because they're used to doing that. And if your kid screams, there're two other kids who are screaming more. So, it's very nice to just be in that environment. And it's super easy because we do like this halfboards, they have breakfast and dinner, and it is one of the most phenomenal buffets I've ever experienced. It's just such high-quality food and it's Greek food, which is amazing.

We just had an incredible time. And they have this thing every night called the baby disco. So, after dinner, we usually go and watch the sunset at the beach. And then at 8:15, all the babies and the parents gather in this area they call the place. They also have movies and stuff there, and they do baby disco for like half an hour and they just do songs and all the babies dance along. And so, at the beginning, Luca was really overwhelmed and at the end, he was, like, doing all the moves and it was so adorable. It's some of the most adorable videos I've ever taken of him.

At one point, they all had sombreros on and they were dancing along to the music and it was so unbelievably cute. And then the babies, some of them like, one of this-- one girl tried to dance with Luca and was kissing him. It's just like so cute because they're like 1.5. It's the most adorable thing ever. So, we had an incredible time, like recharge, all the sun, all the grounding in the water, playing on the beach all day, swimming in the ocean. I feel incredible right now.

Melanie Avalon: That's so amazing.

Vanessa Spina: I was telling you I was thinking of you while we're there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so excited to hear.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, this buffet, I'm telling you, it's amazing. Of course, they have all the things. The breakfast buffet is, like, insane. And the dinner every night is different and it's just, like, never-ending and just so amazing. But every morning and every night, they have this station near the salads, and they have several different types of cucumbers. And they're all peeled, and some of them are in sections, like long sections, others are in just slices, and then they have cubed. And this is like a cucumber, just like this cucumber section. I love cucumbers. Like, sometimes just the seeds, like the seeded part in the middle, and they have these long stems of them and stuff. So, every time I went to get cucumbers, I was laughing. Melanie would love this as well. It's just like it all peeled for you, all sliced, all done and it's like unlimited.

Melanie Avalon: And it's different types of cucumbers?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, they have a few different types. And then, of course, because it's Greece, they have Greek salad every night, which is, like, basically cucumber base. And then like, fresh feta and peppers and tomatoes and stuff. But it's just like the freshest food, so amazing. But the cucumbers are like it's just so nice to just-- I don't know, have a break from cooking, have a break from meal prep. And I was like, "Melanie would definitely appreciate this cucumber situation as well."

Melanie Avalon: I would wipe out that section, it would be gone.

Vanessa Spina: And they have amazing fresh fish, like every night, fresh seafood. Yeah, it's a dream.

Melanie Avalon: They have blueberries?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, actually, no, they didn't have blueberries because they're not in season there, but they had fresh strawberries and they grow a lot of the food that they serve there on the property gardens. So, it's so organic. They have this amazing organic garden that you can go tour and it's really high quality, amazing food. So, whatever diet you're doing, you can keep up. And then I switch up my intermittent fasting when we're there. And I do the breakfast and then fast till dinner. So, yeah, it's awesome. But how have you been?

Melanie Avalon: I've been good. Do you want to help me with my current conundrum?

Vanessa Spina: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I don't know if I should share this because I feel like it's going to make me sound crazy and neurotic, but I guess we're way past that point anyways. Okay. So, I love wine right. At home honestly, I only drink Dry Farm Wines, which listeners have heard me talk about all the time. I guess they don't deliver to Europe.

Vanessa Spina: I tried it at KetoCon once.

Melanie Avalon: That was a while ago, probably, right.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I had a friend who at some point she wanted to set one up over here. They really should.

Melanie Avalon: To do European delivery. Yeah. So, basically, for listeners who aren't familiar, it's not like a brand of wine. They go all throughout Europe and they find all the wineries that are practicing organic practices, and then they test the wines to make sure that they are low sugar, low alcohol, organic, free of mold, free of toxins, all the things. So, it's really only the wine I drink because it is what makes me feel really amazing still the next day. So, when I go out, I just look and I think I've talked about this at length, but when I go out, I just look up all the wines on the wine list and I try to find the ones that are organic at whatever given restaurant because normally if it's like a nice restaurant and you look up all the wines.

Normally some of the wineries are practicing organic practices. And then I normally even go one step further and I'll try to find that alcohol content and try to find ones that are 13% or less alcohol by volume. Dry Farm Wines is 12.5% or less. In any case that's what works for me. But coming up is my brother's wedding this weekend. So, it's the rehearsal dinner on Friday and then the wedding on Saturday, which Vanessa, it is not my skill set to go out and do something very social two nights in a row. It's just not, I cap out at like once per week.

Vanessa Spina: I can relate.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, like, going out and it's funny because I'm an introvert and I love going out. I love it. But I have to recover the next day. I'm already a little stressed at, like, going because it's far. It's like an hour and a half away. So, going to the rehearsal dinner, coming back an hour and a half, going to bed, rinse and repeat, an hour and a half, there wedding, and then coming back. So, all of that to say, if it was just one event, I would just suck it up and drink the wine. If I was just going to the wedding, I would drink the wine there. It'll be fine, live and let live. But I don't want to drink nonorganic wine on the rehearsal dinner and then go to the wedding the next day because I don't know how it'll make me feel.

Melanie Avalon: And like, literally, it's not like I go crazy. I just don't feel well now when I don't drink organic wine. So, the question is, at the rehearsal dinner. Can I bring up my own bottle of wine?

Vanessa Spina: Why not? I mean--

Melanie Avalon: Here's the caveat. It's at a winery.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh. Yikes.

Melanie Avalon: Can I hide it in my purse and then pour the wine in the trash?

Vanessa Spina: No, that's legit. Something I would do. I would put it in a nondescript bottle or something and just bring it because no one would really know or care. But I'm very specific about certain things like that. And I would say if it was anywhere other than a winery, go for it. But yeah, if it is at a winery, what I would do would probably be to put it in something else, like a water bottle, something that looks like a water bottle and just like.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have my wine bottle. So, like, when I went and saw Moulin Rouge, I got this amazing Moulin Rouge aluminum water bottle, but it's actually my wine bottle. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: That's perfect. You're all set.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so maybe I'll just do that. Although people are going to be like because the Dry Farm Wines wine is very light. It doesn't look dark. People might be like, "Where is that from?" Like "I don't know."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would just, like, be like, "Look over there." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Mm, what? Okay.

Vanessa Spina: Just ask them a question about themselves and yeah, they'll instantly be distracted.

Melanie Avalon: This is true. One of my friends, actually, Scott, my business partner, I was asking him, he's like, "Just bring a 20, go up to the server beforehand, can you just fill my glass with this wine instead?"

Vanessa Spina: That's a great idea. I would go with either of those. But it depends on how the wait staff is. If the wait staff works for the winery or if they're contracted in or something because they might have rules about that. And you're like going up to the owner's son or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. So, the things I stress about. And again, if it was just like the one event, I would just suck it up. But I want to feel really sparkly at the wedding.

Vanessa Spina: You should, it's your brother's wedding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Everybody else is staying down there, but as you know, traveling stresses me out. So, literally, that's why I'm like going there, coming back, going there, coming back.

Vanessa Spina: You got to do what works for you and not worry about what anyone else thinks.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Thank you. For listeners though, so, if you'd like to get your own Dry Farm Wines, you can get it at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that gets you a bottle for a penny. Okay, I have one announcement, but just first, do you go to a lot of weddings? Are weddings different in Prague?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, we had our wedding here and it was amazing. It was like a fairy tale.

Melanie Avalon: Was it at a castle?

Vanessa Spina: We had it in this beautiful place called the Hall of Mirrors, which is like this incredible chapel. It looked like an Italian just frescoed, just absolutely stunning roof and room and everything. But we took a horse-drawn carriage after from there, all through the city, like through this main town, old town, over the bridge and then to the Mandarin where we had our reception. And I just felt like a princess because we had the horse-drawn carriage.

There're just so many things about Prague that are like a fairy tale. Weddings are pretty much the same here. They have some different traditions, but they're not all that different. It's definitely wedding season now because there's like a stag party or a stagette or a hen's party. People call it that in England.

Melanie Avalon: Is that like a bachelor party wait, a stag's party? What is that?

Vanessa Spina: Stag is like yeah, bachelor party, stagette. And then they also like there's a lot of Brits that come here for those events and some of them are called like a hen something like for the women, I don't know all the terms, but you regularly just see people in crazy costumes like if they're with their guy friends or things like on their stagette or stag party.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, awesome. Because I feel like I have a lot of family in Germany and I feel like they talk about weddings being days and days long.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, definitely traditional Czech weddings can be like that.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, well, one quick announcement for listeners because we finally just made a decision about this. We were really on the fence. I have four supplements out to date. And the last thing we did, I think maybe or I don't know if it was this last or the Magnesium Nightcap, but in any case, we released a large bottle subscription option for my serrapeptase. And the benefits of that is it's more sustainable for the environment because it's less bottles, less shipping costs and it saves money for everybody. So, everybody wins. Helps your wallet, helps the planet. All good things.

We don't currently have a subscription out for berberine, which I love berberine. For listeners who are concerned with their blood glucose levels, it is amazing for modulating blood sugar levels, it's been found to be comparable to metformin, the pharmaceutical. And then it has a lot of benefits beyond that, like cholesterol lowering. It can even support longevity pathways like AMPK, which is something that we talk about a lot with fasting. So that's super cool. Beneficial effects on the gut microbiome. All cool things. I've been getting a lot of requests for a subscription for it. And we wanted to do the large bottle because people were loving the large bottle idea. But here's the thing. We aren't quite sure how people are currently taking it. We don't know how often, how many because people seem to be all over the place. The general recommendation is two of them before meals. You could do that once or twice a day. We don't know what size bottle to create and how many capsules to put in it.

So, what we're going to do is we're going to do a special trial launch special where you guys get to help us know what you want when it comes to a large bottle. Okay, so July 7 at 07:00 P.M., we're going to launch berberine subscriptions with two options. So, you can either get two bottles of the normal bottles every two months or three bottles of the normal bottles every three months. That will help us know sort of how often you guys are wanting to get the berberine and how many. And from there we'll make the large bottles.

Hopefully, that wasn't confusing. Basically, this is a chance for A, you to get an amazing launch special on the subscription and help us figure out what you guys want so we can make the best large bottle option possible. And just in case you're wondering, I've learned so much about the supplement industry. Like, before this, I would have been like, it's no big deal. Can't you just make multiple options? But friends, it is not that easy. You're like committing to order numbers and it's basically a pretty solid decision that we have to make. So that's why we're doing this trial run.

So, you can get updates at avalonx.us/emaillist or text updates by texting AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And doing that also gets you a 20% off coupon code. Okay. That was so long. Yes, Vanessa, I'm excited for you to maybe enter the supplement world with me.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. Yeah, I'm super excited for the first one, Tone Protein. And yeah, I think it's going to be just really exciting. I love creating things and just like creating all the things that go with it, especially the design aspects. It's just such a satisfying process to create something, especially when it's something that you feel passionately about, like mitochondrial health or ketones or protein or serrapeptase or magnesium. It really lines up with your values and what you are passionate about. So, I think it's really thrilling. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And how can listeners get on your email list for updates about what you'll be creating?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, if you go to toneprotein.com, you can sign up to be the first to know when we announce and release and also get access to exclusive sales and promotions and all the things. So that's toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And for listeners, something I love about Vanessa, you're just such a boss woman. Like, "Anytime I text you about anything, I don't even blink and then it's done." You're like "I'm doing it. You're amazing."

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for saying that. Sometimes I just feel like I'm running all these businesses, like, flying by the seat of my pants. So, it feels really nice to hear that. And yeah, thank you.

Melanie Avalon: You know, you're really efficient at executing things and you're doing it all with a child, which blows my mind.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon: But in any case, shall we jump into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to. I was previewing the questions yesterday and was really excited for these ones.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, would you like to read the first one?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. We have a question from Dina, and the subject is a blood test. "Hello. What is the blood test or genetic testing that you recommend to figure out which foods suit me best? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome Dina. Thank you for your question or Dina. Dina. What did you say? What do you think it is?

Vanessa Spina: Dina.

Melanie Avalon: Dina, probably.

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Dina. Dina. So I have a curveball answer for this question. I wonder if you can guess.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I know you work with InsideTracker. We work with InsideTracker, but I also know, like, you did a bunch of testing with was it the ZOE.

Melanie Avalon: Mm. Okay. "Oh, that didn't even occur to me. Okay, that's a good one, too. Okay, you're very close." So, I will talk about InsideTracker as well. But actually, because when people think of what foods work for them, they're wanting to do a blood test. Often they're thinking of things like Dina said, so, like an IgG sensitivity blood test or an IgE panel. To clarify, IgE would be-- that's more "concrete." So, if you do an IgE blood panel, which is something that even a conventional doctor is probably more likely to test, that will show you what you are actually allergic to.

So, for example, I'm allergic to wheat, which was so exciting when I found out because I'd been gluten-free way before that. So, then I felt like I officially could say no to gluten-containing things. I do know that there's more to wheat than just gluten, but in any case and then I have an IgE reaction to sesame. Do you know if you have any IgE food allergies?

Vanessa Spina: My main one is gluten.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. So that's IgE, then there's IgG, which is a very debated food sensitivity topic. The debate is because basically, IgG are markers of the immune system's memory to things that you've been exposed to, like, often foods. And some people say that you have IgG just to things that you're eating anyways, that doesn't necessarily indicate an allergy or a sensitivity. Other people say that if you have a sealed gut, you wouldn't be reacting to those proteins. So, it's a whole debate. I don't know. Where do you stand on that debate, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I don't really have an opinion on it, actually. I don't think I know enough about it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, that's a nice place too because it's stressful. [laughs] Also, I really respect you in saying. Maybe we talked about this, one of my favorite things is just reserving the right to not have an opinion, especially in today's world, where everybody has an opinion about everything all the time. So, I love that concept. You don't have to have an opinion. It's very freeing. So that's that world honestly. And I realized I opened this by saying I was going to give my answer and I went on a rabbit hole. But for the IgG, I don't really have a go-to recommendation. Historically, I have done a few different ones, but honestly, I don't have a go-to for that. And then genetic testing. So, I'll circle back to InsideTracker because they do provide that.

But all of that to say the first thing I think of when it comes to food reactions is actually wearing a CGM. So, that does relate to ZOE like Vanessa was saying. And the reason I recommend that is because if you're wearing a continuous glucose monitor, you're going to see how different foods are affecting your blood sugar. So not necessarily an allergy per se or a sensitivity per se, but you are going to see what foods are suiting you because it's going to show you metabolically with your metabolic health, what is best supporting your blood sugar levels so that you're not getting crazy spikes or so that your blood sugar is not staying elevated. On top of that, some people will also say-- I feel like Vanessa, did you maybe talk about this in your book? Some people will say that "If you do have a sensitivity to a food, you might get a blood sugar spike just from the sensitivity aspect of it."

Vanessa Spina: I did talk about it in the book. I'm pretty sure.

Melanie Avalon: I think you did. Do you still feel that way or do you not have an opinion?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I think it's really interesting because you can get so much insight from measuring your blood glucose. And I think that it's definitely like one form of feedback. Like, I wouldn't say it's the be all end all, but if your blood glucose is spiking after something that maybe shouldn't necessarily be spiking so much after, it could give you some insight. But I remember it was one of the things I would get the most questions about that people were like, "Can I use this to identify sensitivities?" I just find the interpersonal variability on reactions to foods to be fascinating, but, yeah, it could definitely maybe signal something to look into more.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there's that. And then I know some people. I haven't sat down and done a test for this, but I have noticed it after eating, if you feel like your blood pressure is going up or you get an adrenaline response, that can often be a sign of reacting to the food. And then I don't remember who talked about this. "Oh, man, I wish I could remember." I was like, "Whoa, that's crazy." One person was saying what you could do. "Oh, man. Okay, make sure I say this correctly." It had to do with time perception. I'm going to have to find it. It was something about using a met, is it a metronome? Something that taps for time? Metronome?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there's one on my-- I'm not a musical person. Metronome sets like the pace, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm going to have to circle back to this and figure out what they said. But it was something about using a metronome for time perception before or after eating a food. And if you are reacting to the food, you would perceive the time differently because of the adrenaline response. I was like, "Whoa, that's next level." [laughs] It's next level. So, in any case, ZOE actually would be a really good example. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I had Tim Spector on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Have you had him on the Optimal Protein podcast?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't, no.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if you'd like me to connect you to him.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: So, he has the ZOE program and they actually pair up a CGM with a food. So basically, you eat these-- We've talked about it a lot in the show. You eat these muffins.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God the muffins.

Melanie Avalon: So, you've done it?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I remember listening that "You had to eat the muffins and you were like, I'm going to get to it." You were maybe stalling on it a bit or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was majorly stalling because I knew it was going to be after fasting for so long. After not eating processed food for so long, the idea of sitting down, eating a processed sugary fatty confection, and then just sitting with that and not like "I knew it was going to majorly create cravings." And then I was going to have to not eat. This is going to be miserable.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon: And I remember you might have been listening, but Gin and I kept debating because Gin was like, "You're going to hate the muffins." And I was like, "I'm going to love the muffins."

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I remember, you talking about that. And I was like, "She's probably going to love the muffins."

Melanie Avalon: That muffin, Vanessa, I still think about it, "Oh, it was so good."

Vanessa Spina: Was it because she didn't think they were that great?

Melanie Avalon: She said it was hard to finish them.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, but if your receptors have been totally reset from not eating any confectionery like that, even the most basic, gluten-free, basic muffin would probably taste amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, it literally, I watched my brain light up like a drug. I was like, "This is a drug." [laughs] And then it was so sad. I had one bite and I was so sad because I was like, "This feels amazing and it's going to be over soon." And then I have to sit there. [laughs] It was so awful. Oh, man. And then interestingly, I did do a poll in my Facebook group after, and I asked people. There was like four options. It was, "Do you eat processed foods? Did you like the muffins? Do you eat processed foods? Did you not like the muffins? Do you not eat processed food? Did you like the muffins? Do you not eat processed foods? Do you not like the muffins?" And it was exactly what I predicted. People who normally eat processed foods did not like the muffins, and people who don't eat processed foods liked the muffins.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would have guessed that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All that to say with that experiment, it actually helps, you know, how you clear carbs and fat. So, do you clear carbs better from the bloodstream or fat? And I actually have some thoughts about there.

Vanessa Spina: What were your results? I don't think I ever heard.

Melanie Avalon: It was what I thought, that I am better with fats, actually.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because I remember, I think Gin found out that it confirmed that she would not be optimal for keto or something like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

Vanessa Spina: I remember her saying it was showing that's why all those years ago when she tried keto, it didn't work for her. And now she knows that it's because she doesn't clear the fat well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she did have a whole thing with that. My primary issue with the program and I think it's a great program, and I talked to Tim about this when I interviewed him. But my primary thing is that the conclusion they draw if you don't clear fat well-- there's not a low-carb muffin. There's no setup for people to clear fat in the absence of carbs. But it's a higher carb, lower fat, and then it's a higher fat lower carb, but it's not low carb. I don't know if you can get the information that you need from it. And then on top of that, the irony is that it might say that you're not good at clearing fat and that might actually mean that a low-carb diet would be really good for you because it's signaling that you need a different context to deal with fat. This is just my opinion.

So, the conclusion they draw, like, if you don't clear fat well, you should not be having fat. I think some people, those might actually be the perfect people to go on a low-carb diet. Not necessarily a high-fat diet, but a low-carb diet, which is the opposite of what they recommend. All of that to say, "Oh, you also get a gut microbiome test with it." So, all of that to say, this is getting very long links for people. If you would like to get a CGM, get NutriSense and you can save $30, just go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, and that will save you $30, and it will get you one month of free dietitian support. And what I love about NutriSense, people love the dietitian support option. It's super cool from your results and it's optional, of course, you don't have to talk to anybody.

But it gives you so much data. Like, when you download the app, there's just so much data there, it can be hard to interpret it or know what it means. Did I even say what a CGM is? I don't know if I did. It's something that you put on your arm, and it measures your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid around the cells constantly. So, you get a continuous picture of your blood sugar levels, 24/7 for two weeks. So, it's very telling. And like I said, it will really help show what foods are appropriate for you. So, $30 off with the code IFPODCAST at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and that will get you one month of free dietitian support. And if you would like to try ZOE, I thought we had an IFPODCAST code, but I'm not finding it. So, you can actually use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON10 and that will get you 10% off their program.

And then lastly, for blood and genetic tests, I do love InsideTracker. On the blood side of things, they're not going to give you food sensitivity options. It's more about biomarkers related to metabolic health, longevity, all of those things. It's all the things you really need to be testing to get a clear picture of your health, your metabolic status, but gives you something called your inner age, which is your, "biological age." And so, you can see how young you are on the inside and you can track your levels of everything over time, which is a game changer for me. And they actually just added some women's biomarkers, which is super cool. So, they added estrogen, progesterone, and TSH. And then right before that, they had recently added ApoB, which I'm very excited about. "Oh, I have a really quick story, Vanessa." So, doctors in Prague? Is the whole medical system completely different or is it similar?"

Vanessa Spina: It's quite different, I would say, but in some good ways and some negative ways. It's quite different.

Melanie Avalon: Do you guys have insurance companies?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, everyone who's here has to have state insurance and they used to have private insurance companies. Now they're like debating in Parliament what they're doing with that. But what's fascinating is that if you go to the hospital, when we first got here, I spilled hot tea on my leg and we had to go to the emergency, and I paid just cash at the hospital for being seen by the doctor and getting medication. It was like $4.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Really?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because they still have this state sort of communist-style medical system where no one pays for medical, and they don't have the same systems where the prices get inflated and stuff too, by all the insurers. So even if you're here and you don't have insurance and something happens to you, you will never go bankrupt or broke or something like that because something happens, and then they really are not like a litigious society. So, I always find this funny, but say you slip and fall on someone's property, like in North America, sometimes people sue for that. You can't sue for damages. There's a schedule of-- if you broke your knee or you twisted your ankle, you get this much money, you just get a small fee, but it's all preset instead of these crazy settlements and stuff. So, it's quite different. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Does that work well, because it just stops people from-- I don't know like all this-- I don't want to say drama because justice can be served, but I don't know, does it make things easier?

Vanessa Spina: I think in a way it sets like a tone of self-responsibility. So, it's like, okay, if something happens, it's more so about your self-responsibility. If you spilled a hot beverage on yourself from a place, even if they didn't have a warning label on it, you could never sue for millions or something like that. They would just throw you out. They would just, like, laugh you out, of there because they'd be like, well, you spilled the coffee. There're a lot of things that they have different mindset mentality about. But it's really interesting as a North American to be an expat and compare and contrast the two systems because there's also things about it here that I really don't love. When you give birth, you don't necessarily have a private room assigned to you. It's only if there's enough private rooms. And that's one of the leftovers of that socialist system that is like, weird, where you'd be like, well, why don't they just give everyone a private room? So, there're definitely things that I love and things I don't love as much.

Melanie Avalon: And you had Luca there?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I gave birth to him here and it was a wonderful experience and we're lucky that we ended up getting private rooms so that we could all be together, because during COVID if you didn't have a private room, your partner just couldn't be there at all.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, I have a lot of friends here who had really bad experiences where their partner couldn't be there or could just come for an hour or two for visiting hours. Things got so wonky all over the world during COVID. But yeah, that was, like, a very stressful thing. So, I was like, "Oh, my God, I hope we get a private room and you can be there with us." And luckily, we did get that. But I definitely had thoughts at times of just, like, going back to Canada, North America, and giving birth there, but we were at a really top hospital.

Melanie Avalon: What year did you have him in?

Vanessa Spina: In 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Did you have to wear a mask during delivery?

Vanessa Spina: No, thank God. It was, like, right after that. But yeah, there were definitely situations that people went through that were just so horrible, like, having to wear a mask during labor. I've heard some stories that are just pretty horrendous, but yeah, thankfully everything is pretty much back to normal now. But yeah, totally different systems. But why do you ask?

Melanie Avalon: Quick question. How long were you in labor?

Vanessa Spina: I was in labor for like two and a half days.

Melanie Avalon: I can't do it.

Vanessa Spina: No, it's fine. My whole life my biggest fear was childbirth.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's my biggest fear. [laughs] That's why I'm--

Vanessa Spina: Every time I would be like, in a stressful situation, I'd be like, "Well, at least I'm not pregnant right now. I don't have to give birth." Like, it would always make me feel better, but your body's built to do it, which in the end made me feel better. But I actually had to be induced. My pregnancy was so amazing and seamless and smooth, but I didn't like, Luca just wasn't coming out, and he was like two weeks late, so I had to be induced. And then I wasn't progressing. And then his heartbeat started slowing. So, after like, two and a half days, I just got so exhausted. And the doctor was like, I think we should do a C-section now before it gets more complicated and stressful and have to be unconscious. So, I was like, "Okay, let's just do it." And it ended up being amazing. I barely have a C-section scar, recovery went really well and also used red light for my recovery. And I have no C-section scar, but I'm going on so many tangents right now.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. I love it. Man, I feel like if I had a baby, I'd like, outfit that delivery room, be like, let's bring in the red light, some cold therapy.

Vanessa Spina: I'm definitely bringing it this time because I started the red-light therapy quite a bit after giving birth and having the scar, and I still can like, you can barely see that I even have a scar. It's crazy. So, I only imagine just the internal and external healing that'll happen this time that I've got all these super powerful panels and I'm going to bring one with me. And yeah, it's definitely like, we'll see how things go the next time around. But yeah, I definitely could see you outfitting your room with a whole bunch of biohacking tools and things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Wow. And did you have your red light at that time, your product?

Vanessa Spina: No, it was before that. I was still, like, researching at that point, so I think I had a different red light, but I didn't think about it at the time to use it.

Melanie Avalon: So many things. And how can people get your panels? What's your link?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you. The panels that I created are called the Tone Lux and they are at ketogenicgirl.com, you can check out the three panels that I have there and yeah, thank you, for asking.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about it. Although now I have one other tangent. I am so sorry. When you spilled the tea on your knee, whenever I hear that, I think about the time that I spilled on my knee, because I feel like people hear that they're like, "Oh, that's not bad." "No, if you have spilled coffee or tea, it is the most painful thing."

Vanessa Spina: I can't believe that happened to you, too.

Melanie Avalon: It was coffee, but yeah, and the memory from it you know when you have a memory that's so impactful, it's in slow motion in your head?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Just like assuming.

Vanessa Spina: I know, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Melanie Avalon: This is on my list. There're a few key memories where I've seen very attractive people and it's in slow motion in my head. And I had this memory of spilling the coffee on my knee at the car shop in Santa Monica and them calling the ambulance. And then I just remember the ENT coming in slow motion and he was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. And I just have this vision in my head. So, every time I hear tea spilled, I'm like, beautiful, attractive ENT man running to my rescue.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: That's really funny. Yeah, it's one of the most painful things I've ever experienced.

Melanie Avalon: It's so painful. How did you spill it?

Vanessa Spina: We were in the car and went through a drive-through and I got hot tea, and I think I just put it between my knees for a second or something like that, and then I can't remember exactly what happened, but, yeah, it spilled all over my leg. And it's crazy because at first, you're like, "Oh, that hurts. That hurts a lot." But it's later that it gets so much worse.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I remember I spilled-- I don't know how I did it, but I spilled a whole thing of coffee. And at first, it was like this really intense pain, but I was like, "Oh, it's fine." Do you want us to call an ambulance? I was like, no, it's fine. And then I sat there and then I started getting nauseous, and I was like, "Okay, maybe this is not fine."

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, good times. Good times in life. So, the reason I was asking about the doctor situation. So here I do have a conventional doctor through my insurance and I think I've talked about this before as well, but it's hard to find I know, for instance, it is hard to find a conventional doctor who tests what you want to be testing. And I don't want to judge the whole system, but I have personally found it hard to find a doctor who is really in line with my thinking who's on my insurance.

So, where I have landed is I have found a conventional doctor through my insurance. So, everything's covered, who will literally just test whatever I want him to test? Like, I don't think he really knows or cares. So, what do you want to test? And I just give them a laundry list and then they just check it all off. But the reason I thought about this, I was talking about InsideTracker and ApoB. I don't get my blood drawn at the office because I have in the past fainted.

So, I'd like to just go where I like to go, which is a certain Labcorp. Like, I like my routine, so they give me the order form and then I leave. And every time they give me the order form where they filled it out per my recommendations. And then I see all the other tests I want on it. And I'm like, can I just click off these boxes?

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I like the claim. You think they'll remember that I didn't.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: So last time the one I saw was ApoB. And I was like, "Ha, I just want to check the box."

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I did not, though. So, I'll just get it from InsideTracker. To wrap this all up. "Oh, my gosh. I've talked the whole episode with this one question and you haven't even answered yet?". Okay, so InsideTracker, they do have blood testing and they have genetic testing as well. And what's really cool is they will show you when you get back your blood results what your genetic tendencies are. So, you know if you're doing worse or better than your genetics might indicate, because as we know or maybe we don't, but I think it's becoming more well known that epigenetics are highly much more influential than genetics. So, just if you have a genetic tendency towards something doesn't mean that you are destined to that, your diet and lifestyle have a much more profound effect even genes that people think are deterministic.

So, for example, people often think that the ApoE4 gene for Alzheimer's is deterministic, but it actually is not. It's actually something that people can really take agency with their diet and lifestyle. If you would like to try InsideTracker, our link for that is you can get 20% off their plan. Just go to insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. So that's 20% off at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. And I will say one last thing. One of my favorite things about InsideTracker is you can upload your own labs as well. So, for example, those results that I get back from my doctor, I upload them into the portal and you can see over time, you can track everything. And it's been a game changer for me. It makes charts, it makes graphs. It really just gives me sanity and peace when it comes to my blood work. So, Dina, you were probably hoping I was going to give you a food sensitivity test and I did not. So, Vanessa, what are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina: No, I think she was asking about the stuff that you've talked about before.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you think so?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I didn't actually prepare an answer because I don't have any to recommend. And as soon as I saw the question, I was like, "Oh, she's probably asking about what the ZOE one is?" Because I know you guys talked about it a lot in the past or maybe it was InsideTracker, but I could be wrong. Dina, I apologize if I'm wrong, but I think Dina is asking about the one that you have recommended in the past about the ZOE.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because it's written in past tense. What is the blood test or genetic testing that you recommended? Ooh. Well, that was a nice recap then. Okay. Shall we answer another question?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: And this one is much more in Vanessa's court. So. this comes from Nikki. The subject is leptin resistance, and Nikki says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa. I suspect I have leptin resistance in addition to insulin resistance, and I was wondering if you can give some advice on how to tackle this. I know some say to do low carb, but by way of background, I have a history of very restrictive dieting in my 20s, which then led to years of binge eating disorder. While I am no longer binging, I don't restrict foods because it would trigger binge eating. I practice intuitive eating and food freedom but within the context of prioritizing protein and crowding out the more processed foods as much as possible. So, while I do eat pretty well, going keto or low carb isn't really an option for me. But I do have Vanessa's Tone device, and I get into, "Light fat-burning mode every day." So, I don't want to think my carbs are out of control." And I do want to clarify for listeners because we've mentioned Tone now twice with Vanessa, but it's actually not this thing. So, we mentioned her tone protein and we mentioned her tone red light panels. This is actually her Tone ketone breath analyzer device. Is that also the same link that you gave?

Vanessa Spina: It's also @ketogenicgirl yes, it's the tone device, the original tone device.

Melanie Avalon: So different thing there. So, she says, "I do have Vanessa's Tone device and I get into light fat-burning mode every day, so I don't think my carbs are out of control. The other advice I hear is to stop eating after dark, but that's easier said than done when you're hungry at night due to the leptin resistance. I always feel hungry right before bed, even when I've had a great day of nourishing food. No amount of protein makes me not hungry at night LOL. Will more aggressive fasting 24-plus hour fast lower my leptin levels like they lower insulin levels? Do you have any other suggestions for how to tackle this problem?" Thanks, ladies. Nikki. So, this is a Vanessa question.

Vanessa Spina: I really love this question. Hi, Nikki. Thank you for submitting this question and providing so much background. Now, leptin is such a fascinating hormone because it's a more recently discovered hormone. So, we're still learning so much about it. And I definitely talk about it on my other podcast, Optimal Protein podcast, quite a bit. And I think that keto, as you mentioned, is definitely a great tool for lowering leptin. But I do have some other tips for you.

The first one would be to test your leptin levels because then you can really know for sure if you have leptin resistance. So, actually, Dr. Rick Johnson, I interviewed him. One of the interviews I did with him on the podcast, he talked about the specific range of leptin that you should look for for it to be optimal. So, I have to find that episode for you. But the first thing I would do is test because you said that you suspect that you have leptin resistance and insulin resistance. But I think it'd be good to confirm it to know because then you can know if these strategies and tools will sort of help with that.

What's so interesting about leptin is that you kind of want to have this sort of Goldilocks amount of it. You don't want to have too little leptin you don't want to have too much. And leptin is basically secreted from our fat cells, especially after we eat. And they are supposed to signal to the brain when they dock on the leptin receptors in the brain that we should stop eating now because we have enough fuel on board. And the fact that you said that you have this sort of insatiable hunger at night, sounds like it could potentially be connected to that.

And so, if your leptin signaling is blocked and what's really fascinating is if you have insulin resistance, insulin actually competes at a similar receptor site for leptin. So, if you have a lot of insulin floating around, then you could potentially be impeding that docking, that leptin docking. So, the brain is not getting the signal that you have enough energy and also, you're not able to then turn on sort of the fat burning as well, which is what happens in a lot of cases with obese people, is that it's a problem with leptin signaling.

So, one of the best things that you can do is actually, like you mentioned, is not eating at night, is closing your eating window early in the day because a lot of that signaling with leptin actually happens around midnight. So, if you've just eaten a big meal before you go to bed, then you also may be interfering with the leptin docking. So, it's definitely one of the big sorts of strategies. I would also recommend, like getting your circadian rhythm synced up well, getting morning light can really help with the cascade of hormones that's triggered from melanopsin and the eye detecting morning light.

That specific light wavelengths that you get in the morning, they trigger a lot of hormonal cascades so it could really help support that. And you mentioned that you prioritize protein and you crowd out the more processed foods as much as possible. And I think that's a really great strategy. As far as fasting, like sort of doing extended fasting, 24 hour-plus fast, that definitely is something that will lower both insulin resistance and leptin resistance. So, that's one of the things that is attributed to keto is that it lowers leptin.

So, it definitely could be something, especially because there is this interrelationship between insulin and leptin as well. If you lower blood glucose, you lower insulin, you're going to also be able to lower leptin levels. I haven't looked at specific research on leptin and doing extended fast. I don't know if you have Melanie and maybe you have anything to add on this question.

Melanie Avalon: I have not looked at it in extended fasting, actually I do have a question for you because you're talking about testing leptin levels. When do you test that? And what's the timeline of leptin in the system? And does leptin in the bloodstream reflect? What does it actually tell you?

Vanessa Spina: It's actually a question we should have Dr. Rick on for when we have him on.

Melanie Avalon: When we have him on, we should yeah, I'll make a note. So, he knows a lot about this?

Vanessa Spina: He does. And he tests for leptin with his patients and he knows a lot about it. I mean, he wrote a lot about it in his book, but he knows what that sort of optimal amount of leptin, like what healthy leptin looks like so that you are at getting the proper signaling. And when leptin is really elevated, it means that it's not docking because it's leftover circulating in the blood. But I don't know what the ideal time is for it. I don't know if there is an ideal time. Like, I don't know if you would get different measurements at different times of day because it is secreted after you eat from your fat cells. So, it's a great question and a great question for Rick.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm going to make a note now because we are bringing him on. That's going to be so fun. Vanessa and I are Rick Johnson fan girls. I showed Vanessa this. I got so happy the other day. He wanted to know how I enjoyed the Taylor Swift concert and said I looked like Taylor Swift at the concert. And my day, I like a life was made. He's a nicest, precious man.

Vanessa Spina: Precious gem of a man.

Melanie Avalon: And he loves musicals. His daughter is very musically talented and his son. It's so cool that I love when there are families like that are, like, sciency and creative.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that was a fantastic answer. I knew Vanessa would be able to do that much more justice than I can because I haven't done a lot of research into leptin, and I really probably should. The only thing I will add on is two things. So, this, well, three things. One Vanessa, do you have thoughts on "Is it Jack Kruse, the Leptin Reset diet?"

Vanessa Spina: Yes, he has a great Leptin Reset protocol.

Melanie Avalon: So, that might be something to check out. I have not done it, but I just know-- especially when I was really steeped more in the low-carb world and gallivanting about the forms and such, I would see people talking about his work a lot. That might be something to check out. I'll put a link to that in the show notes and then two other things. I completely hear you and understand. And first of all, congratulations with no longer struggling with the binging or no longer binging, I don't know if you're struggling with it emotionally. I am happy for you that you are finding what works for you.

So, I'm wondering two things. One, you're crowding out the processed foods as much as possible. I wonder if you're still maybe like I was talking about earlier with how I react to the muffin, for example. I wonder if you're still eating something that is creating a blood sugar drop and a response like if you're eating something that is not serving you. And if that's the case, of course, we don't want you to fall into a restrictive pattern or binge eating or anything like that,

I just wonder if that is the case, if instead it's possible to have a sort of paradigm shift where it's not about restricting, but maybe focusing on what you can eat. So, maybe you could try and experiment for just a day. I don't know if this is happening every night for her. Always feel hungry right before bed. So, what if you tried one day where you only ate whole foods, like nourishing whole foods to abundance, so no restriction, and just see how that affects your hunger before bed? Oh, also this would be a great time to try a CGM like we talked about earlier. You could see when you're hungry at night if it is from a blood sugar drop. Actually, you might want to start there or do that as one of the first things, because then you'll know in that hungry moment, are you having a blood sugar drop or not. And that will be so telling. So again, nutrisense.io/ifpodcast, coupon code IFPODCAST for $30 off.

And then my last recommendation would be I know you are eating nourishing food, but really focusing on high nutrient-rich food. It could be like a micronutrient deficiency of some sort. So, I don't know what you're eating, but seafood and meat and fish and things really, really high in nutrients, maybe egg yolks, if that's something that works for you. I just find that when people focus on nutrition that that can really move the needle for some people.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's a great tip. And I'm a huge fan of making liver pate and having it once or twice a month just for that nutrient density. But I love that you brought up the Leptin Reset protocol by Dr. Jack Kruse. And I know that his recommendation is to have like, 50? I think it's around 50 g of protein when you wake up, right? Yeah. Within half an hour to an hour of waking.

There's also a book, a really interesting book by an author, he wrote a book on leptin going through all the research and science on it. And he says, make sure you get that protein. But also, no snacking between meals is a really important thing for lowering leptin. Yeah, I think that's the last thing that I wanted to add, but, yeah, there's definitely a lot of things you can do to reset it. Yeah, let us know how it goes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, please keep us updated. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for this episode, which will have links to everything that we talked about, which is a lot of things, as well as a full transcript. That is at ifpodcast.com/episode322. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl right. Yes, I think that is all of the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: No, I really enjoyed all the questions and I can't wait to record the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. All right, well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: All right, talk to you soon.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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May 28

Episode 319: Romantic Compatibility, Protein Powders, Detox Diets, Smooth Skin, Cellular Renewal, Retinols, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% off InsideTracker’s new Ultimate
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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX SUPPLEMENTS: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

stay up to date on vanessa's new protein supplement at toneprotein.com

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: Sue - Smooth skin

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

Listener Q&A: Tara - What are your thoughts on retinols?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to episode 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how to get 20% off one of my favorite things for truly taking charge of your health. To live your healthiest and longest life possible, you need to understand what's going on inside. InsideTracker takes a personalized approach to health and longevity from the most trusted and relevant source. That would be your body. By using data from your blood, DNA, and fitness trackers, InsideTracker gives you personalized and science-backed recommendations on things that you can take control of to optimize your health. So, this is things like food, supplements, workouts, and lifestyle choices including ways to optimize sleep and stress. What I love about InsideTracker is that InsideTracker tests provide optimal ranges, not conventional ranges, for over 40 biomarkers including magnesium, vitamin D, testosterone, cortisol, ferritin, which is the storage form of iron that is rare for doctors to test, and the newly released ApoB, which I am so excited about. 

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For a limited time, our audience can get 20% off the entire InsideTracker store when you sign up @insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. So, if you're ready to get a crystal-clear picture of what's going on inside your body along with science-backed recommendations to optimize what's not working, then visit insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. One of the things I really love about InsideTracker is it helps you track all of your results, all of your tests over time, so you can see patterns, see your history, it makes predictions of where you'll be if you continue on your current trajectory. It is a game changer for making sense of your labs. I am obsessed with InsideTracker. Again, you can get 20% off sitewide at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast and we will put all of this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hi, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: I have a question for you, Vanessa. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yay. 

Melanie Avalon: Is love blind?

Vanessa Spina: That is a great question. I think it definitely can be. What do you think? 

Melanie Avalon: I have a lot of thoughts about this. [laughs] So, for listeners, Vanessa and I realize we're both big Love is Blind fans, the reality TV show, which I don't normally watch, like, I don't watch any other reality TV. I don't know why I'm obsessed with that show. Do you watch reality TV? 

Vanessa Spina: I do. I like relationship shows like this one. They're kind of my mental relaxation. I'm just fascinated by interpersonal dynamics and especially what generates chemistry between people, especially what generates chemistry in a couple. What is it that causes chemistry between these two people that it doesn't and these other and I find it endlessly fascinating. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so fascinating, especially when there're all these different options. You could be very physically attracted to somebody and emotionally attracted to them and like them as a person, or you could be physically attracted to them and not like them as a person, or you could really like them as a person and not be physically attracted to them. There're so many options. It's like what you just said, what is that visceral, chemical, physical attraction, like what's creating that. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I find it endlessly fascinating because I know some of it is happening beneath the surface. We all know about pheromones, but then there's these fascinating concepts like your histocompatibility complex. While women who go out to bars and meet men, they've done research where women will be more attracted to the scent of men. Those pheromones of the men that have an immune system that is compatible with theirs for their offspring. The women that get hit on the most at bars are the ones who are ovulating, there's so much going on that we don't even know. It all has to do with reproduction. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: Also, apparently, I haven't read the book yet, but I know there's a whole book about this about how being on birth control affects who you're attracted to. And so, women will be on birth control, be attracted, select a partner, get married and go off of birth control and no longer be attracted to their partner. 

Vanessa Spina: That's the same study I'm talking about with the histocompatibility complex. The women who could smell who were not on birth control they could tell which men had the compatible immune system. But the ones who were on birth control, when they smelled their sweat, they couldn't tell the difference and they couldn't figure out which men were compatible for their offspring. It's unbelievable. 

Melanie Avalon: What I'm also very, very fascinated by and this goes back to the, is love blind question. I find it really interesting. I feel like I have to tiptoe saying this, not around you, just around the world [laughs] that we look down upon listing a person's attractiveness as a quality that we “should be attracted to.” You're supposed to like intelligent people or kind people that's okay to “like” and when I say okay, I mean sort of the way it's presented in the world. But it's like, oh, if you like somebody because they're very attractive to you, that's somehow seen as shallow when in reality all of these things are because this is my thoughts, you're looking for a mate that is most compatible with you. So, it's giving you something you need. So, the intelligence of another person. You're looking for a mate that will A, create intelligent offspring, B, be able to take care of you and survive in the world. 

And then with the physical attraction, it probably goes back to that physical compatibility. The kindness would probably be like a whole. I don't know, there's probably debates about that, about whether we're naturally altruistic or not. Basically, my point is I find it really interesting that it's kind of looked down upon to use physical attraction as something that would be valid. I feel like thesis of Love is Blind is that love should be blind. I feel that's their thesis.

So, for listeners who haven't seen that show, people speed date without ever actually seeing the other person and they have to propose and they meet in the real world and do they get married or not. And then they decide on the wedding day if they're actually getting married or not. But just my thoughts, I feel like that show is championing this idea that love should be blind and that we shouldn't base on physical looks. But I just feel evolutionarily, I don't know, wouldn't you want to be with somebody who you are physically attracted to. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it is looked at in a superficial way, but I think it's a negative when people are making their whole decision, like, centered around that person's attractiveness. What I love about Love is Blind is that it takes the physicality out of the equation so that people can get to know each other more deeply. It's fascinating as a concept to watch people get to know each other without knowing what the other person looks like and making all those connections. But when they do meet in person, I think it's such a great point that you bring up about the importance of physical attraction because sometimes they don't work out and the main reason is because they're not physically attracted to each other, even though they've made that mental and emotional connection. The physical chemistry is really important aside from just sexual chemistry, but I think there's also components.

Like when I met Pete, I knew that we're going to have really beautiful offspring. I just knew I had a feeling. I know that part of my attraction to him was because I knew that he would impart qualities to our children that would beneficial and it wasn't just because he was hot. You know what I mean? I do think it's an interesting point because it is why I've personally always preferred just meeting people in person because you really can form so many of those micro decisions when you meet someone in the flesh, but you can also form amazing connections with people without even ever meeting them.

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, listeners, Vanessa's son Luca is just the cutest thing ever. He's going to be such a beautiful, I mean, he is a beautiful human being, but he's going to grow into such a wonderful man. I can tell. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much. 

Melanie Avalon: Very excited for his future. Yeah. That's something they often say with dating apps today that I feel like I just keep hearing this. If you are interested in somebody on the dating app, you should meet them sooner rather than later, rather than draw out this long conversation, because you just won't know until you see them in person. Like you just said, you can answer so many micro decision questions, I think, about attraction and compatibility just by meeting somebody in person. So, yes, dating thoughts. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I love that we're both fascinated with the show, and I think the whole world has been really I mean, I know this podcast is coming out a little bit after when it's all sort of been blowing up, but it's a really fascinating concept. It's a lot of fun to watch. I was just amazed this season by how many couples really formed beautiful connections, loving connections, like real connections, and stayed together. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I was too, because I was watching it and I was like, “I don't think any of them are staying together.” [laughs] This is like a lost cause. But then, yeah, also something I like about the show, not to make this all about that show with most reality TV, I get the feeling, and I've been on a lot of reality TV shows, so I know this from the other side. Even, oh, sidenote, speaking of humans and evolutionary, I was on a National Geographic docuseries called How Human Are You? It was about all of this and it was like a speed dating thing and they were analyzing how humans interact and speed date, but it was just a little bit upsetting because it was all staged. I was like, I thought National Geographic was real, but it was casted, basically. So, the Love is Blind, I feel like they actually have non-actors. It's actually real people. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, they're not trying to create fake storylines and things like that. 

Melanie Avalon: So fun times. Well, anything new in your world before we jump into all the fasting stuff? 

Vanessa Spina: I've been working on launching my new line of protein supplements. I've been working with your partner Scott at MD Logic. I'm just having so much fun with our conversations and how it's all going and I'm just really, really excited to be working on that. I'm working on some other just really exciting projects. I feel like everything is happening at once as it tends to. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you with that. I don't know how much you can share, but like protein powder-type situations? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've been wanting to make one for years. I've been looking into it for years. With Scott and MD Logic, I think it's just the perfect partnership because he has such high standards, which I know is why you partnered with him. And I think it's just the perfect fit. We're talking about a couple of initial products that we're going to do, but all of them are centered around helping women, especially men as well to build more lean mass and improve their body composition. I just want to have the highest quality possible protein supplement out there without fillers that's really clean and that you can trust. You can trust that it'll help you to optimize your muscle protein synthesis without having to just be eating protein all day long or drinking massive protein shakes. So, I'm really excited about the potential. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. This is so thrilling for so many reasons. Well, one, we get questions all the time about recommended protein powders. So now we will have a go to and it will be one that I can feel so, so good about because I personally don't really use protein powders, but I have in the past and the amount of-- there're just so many brands and they are full of so many terrible ingredients. It's really, really hard to find good quality clean protein powders, at least in my experience, because I have gone through periods where I would play around with them. That's really exciting that you'll be able to make the best of the best. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, that's the biggest thing for me is I've gotten just endless questions over the years on the different protein powders and I've always stayed brand agnostic, but I always try to post guides on what to look for in a really good high quality protein supplement. The number one thing is checking the amount of leucine that's listed. So, the more detailed the packaging is, especially when it comes down to the individual amino acids. You can look at the ingredients and see the order that they're listed in to find out what it's made of. 

But if you are looking at a really high-quality brand, they'll tell you how much leucine is in each serving. That amount of leucine should be, for example, with weight, it should be at around 11%. So, if it's not 2 to 3 grams for a scoop of 20 to 30 grams, then something would be off. And if you just don't see a breakdown of the amino acids of the exact amount of leucine, then I would question it. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily trying to be shady or anything, but I would just question it because you would want to see that they understand the importance of those leucine amounts and that they're putting in all the right things. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so incredible. Yeah, I think that's something I mean, I imagine that people who are really into the bodybuilding sphere and really into all of that will be aware of it. But I'm just thinking about the audience on this show in general. I feel a lot of people are not aware of, there needs to be some education surrounding this. That's so exciting that you can provide the education and you'll be able to provide the resource. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. When this airs, I think that will probably be coming out around this time. I'm not sure. I just had a call with Scott yesterday about this, but we're probably launching subscriptions for my berberine supplement, which is exciting. We're trying to figure out right now. 

Vanessa Spina: Let me ask you, what's new with you? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, just launching that and we're trying to figure out right now what bottle size to go with and so much fun, yes. I was polling the audience. It's really interesting too. It's all these little things you don't think about until you have a brand like things, just so many decisions and hours and hours of conversations that people just have no idea. Like talking about bottle size for an hour. 

Vanessa Spina: I love when I chat to Scott. I feel like I'm talking to you too. It just flies by. It's like I'm in the zone. I'm like, it's been 2 hours. I'm like, “Oh, my God, I got to go. I got to go make dinner.” 

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's one of the problems about-- Scott's into all this stuff. Listeners are familiar with him because we've had him on the show, maybe three or four times now. When you launch your protein powder, we'll have to have him on and do an episode. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, what is new with you? 

Melanie Avalon: Really? Just yeah, working on the supplements we are starting just really quick brief teaser, my next supplement. So, we launched the Magnesium Threonate which has been amazing. Which I think I told them to send it to you. So, hopefully it's hard to get stuff to Vanessa over in your land, but you should be getting it soon. That's been amazing for I've been taking it every night for sleep and relaxation. Now, baby teaser, we're starting on my next supplement, which is probably going to be in the chlorella, spirulina world. So, I'm very, very excited about that. And then Friday, I'm seeing the Taylor Swift concert. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited for you. I was laughing the other night because I was on Twitter, and I was like, I think I'll follow Melanie. I went to your Twitter because I'm barely ever on Twitter, and your last tweet was something about how being on the phone crying to your mom about not being able to get Taylor Swift tickets is the definition of first world problems and I was laughing. It was so funny. 

Melanie Avalon: It really is. It really is.

Vanessa Spina: I remember when you were doing that like trying to get tickets. So, that's so exciting. It's this week. Wow. 

Melanie Avalon: I literally think about it too much, too much. So, that's going to be an experience on Friday. I don't know. I might have a heart attack. Like we'll see. I might faint. But all is well. All is too well. I will tell you, so yeah. So, I'll give links for listeners. For my current supplements, you can go to avalonx.us. You can use the coupon code MELANIE AVALON for 10% off sitewide. You can get email list updates on that at avalonx.us/emaillist. So, that's where you'll hear about the spirulina and chlorella and subscriptions and all the things. Vanessa, have you started an email list for your supplements? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. You can sign up for notifications about the protein at tonepotein.com. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome. Is that going to be the name you think? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I'm sticking with the Tone. I mean, it was perfect for the Tone device because it was like toning and ketones. But it's all about toning getting toned. 

Melanie Avalon: That is perfect. I'm so excited for you. Okay. This is great. 

Hi, Friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this. How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them. But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time or give yourself a finger prick, which again, is a snapshot of that one moment in time.

What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now and I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. So, we are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. 

Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun. Then you can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more, and you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. 

One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement. 

Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting, and so much more. Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. So, we definitely encourage you to choose a 6 or 12-month subscription, which are cheaper per month, and allow you to not only achieve your goals, but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. 

You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That is, nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends you want to be in the world of CGMs. It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. So, definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

All right, shall we jump into questions for today? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, our first question today comes to us from Sue Kimpton. Subject is smooth skin. “Why is my skin smoother when I follow a good fasting protocol? For example, clean fast of decent length for a number of days. I've done IF for almost three years and I enjoy it immensely. Thanks for all your hard work.” 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sue. Well, thank you so much for your question. This is a great question and I did a deep dive into it. It's interesting because when I thought about the question before doing any research, I just felt intuitively, like it makes a lot of sense. The first things that came to my mind for this were reductions in inflammation from fasting, increases of stem cells, like the detox effect. It just seemed intuitively that it makes sense that fasting promotes good quality skin. But there actually is a bit of research. So, interestingly, there's actually a lot of research on calorie restriction and skin health. And I think a lot of the benefits that we receive from calorie restriction, we receive from fasting, there might be similar or there are similar pathways activated. So, I think a lot of that can extend to each other. 

So, for example, calorie restriction specifically can affect plasma proteins, hemoglobin, and skin collagen. All of those are involved in our skin health. There was one study that looked at the impact of calorie restriction on side effects with topical retinoid treatment, and they found that there was a reduction in irritation from that retinoid treatment from calorie restriction. And they hypothesized that this might be due to a boost in local antioxidant levels, which is something we also see with fasting, and also specifically on the inhibitory effect of a transcription factor. It's called the matrix metalloproteinase, MMP genes. And those are involved in tissue destruction. So, basically stopping signaling that would otherwise be destroying our skin. So, again, this is calorie restriction that had that effect. But I do think we can probably extend some of that to fasting as well.

And then studies have also found in general that calorie restriction can improve the appearance of wrinkles and decrease oxidative stress. Again, we know that intermittent fasting definitely has a profound effect when it comes to reducing oxidative stress. I found a super cool study. This was published in very recently, March of 2023, and it's called The Effects of a Fasting Mimicking Diet on Skin Hydration, Skin Texture and Skin Assessment, a randomized control trial. It was published in the Journal of Clinical Medicine. This was looking at the fasting-mimicking diet protocol, which we talked about a lot on this show that was created by Valter Longo, who we've also had on this show, as well as on my Biohacking Podcast. Have you interviewed him, I think I asked you that before. Have you interviewed him? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we did talk about it because I was saying he's really hard to lock down. So, his protocol is a severely calorie restricted fasting mimicking-type approach for five days. They actually looked at that on the effects on skin health. Again, the reason I think this is applicable to intermittent fasting in general is they find that with the fasting-mimicking diet, it basically activates a lot of the circumstances and situations and benefits of fasting, but you're still just eating like a tiny, tiny bit. 

So, in that study, they found that the fasting mimicking diet increased skin hydration in the participants. The participants were a group of 45 healthy women between the ages of 35 and 60. It also helped maintain their skin texture in the fasted group. But for the group that was not doing the fasting-mimicking diet, they actually saw an increase in skin roughness. And so, then they went and talked about the reasoning behind this, and they said that probably due to how it affects the skin barrier, the things I mentioned before with oxidative stress, also the role of stem cells and then super interestingly-- So, this was discussed in that fasting-mimicking diet study. 

They were saying that another way that the fasting-mimicking diet might help skin health is actually through the gut-skin connection. So, basically, the effects of fasting can have a beneficial anti-inflammatory effect on the gut microbiome and support members of the gut microbiome that might be related to skin health. So specifically, those are lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria. They referenced another study, for example, and that was children with eczema. Those children were found to have less gut colonization of Bifidobacteria and lactobacillus compared to controls.

And then in another study, this was animal study, but they found that different strains of Bifidobacteria could actually help with supporting skin hydration and actually protected against UV damage, which is pretty cool. So, basically, they are hypothesizing that maybe the fasting has a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome and that might actually be supporting skin health as well. So that was very long. But all that to say, there's a lot of mechanisms whereby fasting can help promote skin health. Vanessa, do you have thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that was such an incredibly thorough answer. I love that you elucidated all of the main mechanisms and some of the studies there. I mean, I know that you're absolutely correct when it comes to stem cell production, stimulation of that cellular renewal that can happen through that, and definitely the autophagy makes a huge difference. I think the main point that you brought up about lowering the inflammation because you're spending more time in the fasted state. But I definitely always notice it for myself. 

When I just did my recent five day seasonal fast, I had a massive improvement in my skin it just feels so soft, like a baby's bum. I've been combining it with red light as well. The red light therapy, I think, makes a big difference because it's stimulating all those epigenetic growth factors in the collagen and elastin. So, combining it with that's made a big difference. It's amazing how tangible the difference is. I think that's awesome that Sue is noticing that, because this definitely motivates you when you have those kinds of tangible results. 

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. My brother is engaged and he's getting married. His fiancée reached out to me, and she wanted to know about-- she said she wanted to work on her skin for the wedding, and she wanted to know my thoughts on doing one of those, like, juice cleanses. I think she wanted to do some lemon water juice cleanse. 

Vanessa Spina: The Master Cleanse. 

Melanie Avalon: It wasn't the Master Cleanse. Have you done the Master Cleanse? 

Vanessa Spina: I did years ago when I was very misinformed. 

Melanie Avalon: That's the one with the pepper, right? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's lemon juice, maple syrup, and cayenne. In Canada, anyways, we use maple syrup. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, in Canada you use--

Vanessa Spina: Maple syrup. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, Canadians are known for their maple syrup. 

Vanessa Spina: But you're basically just drinking spicy sugar water.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds miserable. I don't think I ever did it. I remember my friends in college were doing it, and they said, [chuckles] I will never forget this. They were like, they say when you do that you shouldn't, I apologize if this is crude, “Don't trust a fart when you're on it.” 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I bet. Don't trust your farts for sure. People misinterpret that as, like, detoxification, but it's not. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What's the craziest diet thing you did? 

Vanessa Spina: Probably that, but I remember just being out of college, so many cleanses and detoxes. They were so popular. I think now, like, teas. Detox teas have been pretty big in the last few years, which I never tried any of that. But probably the Master Cleanse was the craziest thing. What about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Two things, the cookie diet. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, that's right. You did the cookie diet. 

Melanie Avalon: I was all about those cookies and then I went back and yeah, I looked at the ingredients, and it's literally gluten. I think the first ingredient is gluten. It's like fiber and gluten. It was so miserable. I will get these shipments, like, shipped, and I was living with roommates at the time, and they were like, “What is Melanie doing?” That one and when I ate, I did the apple, what's his name-- like the apple diet, Edgar Cayce or something, basically, where you're supposed to eat just apples for three days and then you take some olive oil and it's supposed to flush out. 

Vanessa Spina: I've never heard of that one. That's hilarious. 

Melanie Avalon: What's funny, though, is I did it for-- so you're supposed to do it for three days, oh gosh. You're supposed to do it for three days and I did this in college, and I felt so amazing. I felt high. This was before I had done intermittent fasting. I wasn't overweight, but I had weight to lose. Now I'm such a low body weight, I would not feel comfortable doing something like this. I want to clarify about that because I was reading not that I get wrapped up and we don't have a lot of trolls, but comments from people. But I did see a comment somewhere the other day about how I guess I talk about these crazy things I've done, so people shouldn't listen to me. 

Friends, listeners, I'm just being completely transparent. Before I became super aware of the importance of food and how it affects our bodies and fasting and paleo and keto and all of that. I mean, I was just trying all the things because you so desperately want to find something to lose weight. So, I hope it's not a reflection on me now. I think people get confused about that. 

Vanessa Spina: That's what I always say. I'm like, I have tried it all. Name me one thing. Okay, maybe I haven't done the apple one, but I've done it all. I've tried it all. And that's how you learn. It's part of how you learn. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I've been super transparent about how I went through my period where I just ate, like, every night, a massive rotisserie chicken. People are like, “You shouldn't listen to her because she went through a phase where she just ate rotisserie chickens.” 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God. When I heard you talking about that, I was like, that is the best. You're in college, you're on a budget, and you're taking advantage of a clearance sale at the end of the day. I had so much respect for you. 

Melanie Avalon: 11:00 PM, my night classes would get over at 10:00, and then I would go to the grocery store and get my rotisserie chicken. It was amazing. 

Vanessa Spina: I love rotisserie chickens. They're so good and they're never as good when you make it at home. They can be good, but the ones that you buy from, like, yeah, they're delicious. 

Melanie Avalon: Really quickly so that was my whole disclaimer about the story I'm about to tell. Please don't, well, you can judge if you like. But I went three days only eating apples. I felt amazing. I was like, I'm just going to keep doing this indefinitely until I don't want to do it anymore. So, I did it. I wasn't drinking or anything, so I did it 10 or 11 days. I was in a film professional fraternity, Delta Kappa Alpha, shout out. We had a film school prom. And so, I went and I drank what I normally would have drunk going out, but this was in the context of only having eaten apples for 11 days. I died. I just died. [laughs] It was the worst night of my life. I remember the next morning I think my roommates thought I was dead. They were like, calling my mom. I was on the floor and my mom was on the phone. She's like, “Melanie, eat some bread.” I was like, "I can't eat bread. I'm not eating carbs now, I don't eat bread." With a very few exceptions, I have not had hard alcohol since then. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, yeah, that combination sounds deadly literally. 

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever had a bad night? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I feel I used to have such high tolerance, especially when I was in university and I could go out and drink, and I could out drink like my guy friends. Now I'm such a light weight. Also, you just don't want to be hungover anymore. The older you get, it's like a day of my life lost, feeling miserable. When you're optimized and you're a biohacker and you feel amazing most of the time you have an off day. You're just like, “What is this?” Yeah, it's not a good combination. Actually, I've been thinking a lot about the but and thing, how if you're saying but, you're negating. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so good. 

Vanessa Spina: So good. I was thinking about and about how it is fun. I do like to do a couple of big nights a year, like New Year's Eve or someone's wedding or something. It's fun to let loose. But when you have a kid and you're hungover, you never want to be hungover. [laughs] So, it's the next level. 

Melanie Avalon: I can imagine. I was actually reflecting on this last night with gratitude. I do drink wine every night, and I drink Dry Farm Wines only, really at home. When I go out, I look up all the wineries of the wine list and I try to find the ones that are organic, and then I also try to find the ones that are probably lower alcohol content as well. But I was reflecting last night on how grateful I was. It's so nice to like you said, I can have my drink and drink it too. I have my glass of wine every night to wind down, and I feel really wonderful the next day. I do all the health things and I just love it. It's just a great experience and that's me. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Get the polyphenols, get all those health boosting, the resveratrol all of it. 

Melanie Avalon: All the things. So, for listeners, if you would like to get Dry Farm Wines, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and all of their wines are low alcohol, low sugar, and organic and tested to be free of toxins and mold, and you really notice the difference, drinking those. All of that to say, skin. That's what we're talking about. I don't even remember how we got on this. Oh, my brother getting married. His fiancée reached out to me and wanted to know if she should do one of these lemon juice things for her skin. And I was just reflecting on how, honestly, the first thing I think about with skin now probably is fasting. It's not really about what you put in. It's about giving your body that break and that detox period. I think people's skin really can glow with fasting. If I had to pick three things for skin health, like three lifestyle practices or things, I would say fasting. Well, fasting, and the foods that you're eating as well. And then red light therapy, which, by the way, how can listeners get your red light therapy devices? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, the Tone Lux. You can check them out at ketogenicgirl.com. I have three different models there and they have all the wavelengths of light that I found were the most associated with the evidence-based benefits, including boosting collagen in the skin and elastin and really giving the skin a softer, more youthful appearance. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome. Nice. So, listeners get that. The third thing I would say would be people's skincare and makeup. It's just so ironic because we turn to these products to support our skin health, and so many of them, especially in the US are they're toxic to our skin. They're marketed as making our skin better, but really we're putting in problematic ingredients that are contributing to our toxic burden and in the long term, probably not doing any favors for our skin's appearance. And then same with makeup. I'm all about makeup. I love makeup. It's ironic that we could be putting on makeup to improve the appearance of our skin, but really doing some damage by again exposing ourselves to these endocrine disruptors, these obesogens, these toxins. So, that's why I am obsessed with Beautycounter, because they make nontoxic skincare and makeup. So, yeah, I would say the diet, the red light, and the skincare products. 

Vanessa Spina: One last one. So, exfoliation is my secret weapon with the red light, is for me those three pillars. I also love the nutrition one, but the fasting, red light, and exfoliation and using a facial scrub has been life changing. I also do the whole-body scrubs and I have various loofas and things for that. But exfoliation really is the key to maintaining youthful skin because you can remove that top layer of skin. I'm not a skin expert or an esthetician, but it works wonders for my skin if I do it once or twice a week, a high-quality facial scrub. You can also get chemical ones and different kinds of chemical, at-home peels that you can do or just go for regular facials. I don't have time, so I just exfoliate. I've spoken to estheticians in the past who've told me the key is just to exfoliate. Antiaging really is exfoliation. So, I notice a massive difference. Do you do much exfoliation? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I know you just received, I sent Vanessa this massive shipment of Beautycounter products, which, by the way, they do not make it easy to ship to Czech Republic. I told you it didn't even come up in the USPS system. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my goodness. That's wild because I ship myself with USPS, like, the Tone device all the time and different things. I wonder what was going on there. 

Melanie Avalon: So, they were, like, going through the computer. They're like, “Oh, it's not in the computer.” I was like, “The country is not in the computer?” Not like they listed it and were not available. They just took it out. [laughs] So, I literally went to UPS, FedEx, post office and then finally DHL. So, we got the box to Vanessa. 

Vanessa Spina: You know who ended up shipping it?

Melanie Avalon: DHL.

Vanessa Spina: USPS. 

Melanie Avalon: What? 

Vanessa Spina: Or maybe that was just a label that was still on it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, that was the label. Yeah, that was because basically when I went to the post office, I boxed it all up with their stuff, and I was like, I'm not going to rebox this. That's funny. So, to answer your question, one of the products in there is the Reflect Effect mask. 

Vanessa Spina: I saw that. I can't wait to try it. 

Melanie Avalon: So, okay, I'm obsessed. This answers your exfoliation question. You put it on your skin and it's like tightening and brightening and all the things, but it has little beads in it. There's a little tool that comes with it as well, which is optional, so listeners don't have to get the tool if they don't want. But when you remove the mask because you're scrubbing your face to wash it off, it exfoliates while removing the mask if that makes sense. Definitely try. It makes my skin glow. If you use a little tool that you can buy as an add on, you can remove it with that, and that will further exfoliate. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited to try that and also, I think there was also a chemical peel in there. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Okay, let me tell you about it. It's the Overnight Resurfacing Peel. So, it's misleading in the name. It's not actually a peel. They call it that because it rivals the effects of getting a chemical face peel. But it's really a leave-on treatment. Every night I wash my face and then I put that on immediately. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm going to try it tonight. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so great. 

Vanessa Spina: I tried the foundation today I was telling you earlier. I tried the foundation for the first time and I had the little sample and it was amazing. I usually use Mac foundation, and I've always felt okay with it because we are in Europe, so I know that they control what's in it a little bit more. But this one, I felt like I could still see my skin, but I was getting coverage and more so just like an overall even, but not so even that it's unnatural. It was a more natural lighter weight. But I like to have a consistent shade across my face and then contour. So, it was just really nice. I felt like I could see more of my skin. So, I'm excited to order that one actually. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. Yes, I think you texted it to me, but I'll order it for you to get it over there. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to try all of it. It's a treasure chest. Thank you so much for sending it to me. 

Melanie Avalon: You're welcome. The awesome thing about the makeup, because I used to honestly, for me, the last thing I “cleaned up” in my diet was my makeup and skincare because it was just so overwhelming. It's really hard to switch out your makeup because it's your makeup. So, I was just so thrilled when I found Beautycounter because knowing that is their mission about the endocrine disruptors, it makes me feel really good about everything. And then on top of that, I went through a phase where I was like, “Oh, everything needs to be completely natural.” It needs to be “natural.” But really the toxicity potential isn't about if it's natural or not. It's about if it's toxic or not. So, they still use a combination of, “natural” and synthetic ingredients, but the testing is surrounding toxicity. So, you can feel really good about what you put on and it means that the products really work. 

Like, for example, I've mentioned this before, but the makeup when Tina Fey hosted the Golden Globes, she wore all Beautycounter makeup. So, it's really good makeup. It's ready for the high-definition cameras. Yeah, so, you have to let me know what you think. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm going to try all of it. You're converting me over I think. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: So good. It's so good. 

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Here's one last question from Tara and it's from the Facebook group, and it actually relates to what we just talked about, so we can quickly answer it. Tara wants to know what are your thoughts on retinols. “Do either of you use it in your skincare routine?” 

Vanessa Spina: So, I know retinols are amazing for acne prone skin, which I have been really lucky to not have to deal with much acne. My skin is pretty normal, so I don't use a lot of it. But I think for people who do have acne prone skin, it can be a game changer. The one thing that I do know about retinoids is you have to avoid them when you're pregnant because of the potential levels of the retinoids in them. So, what about you? Do you use them? 

Melanie Avalon: I do not. It's interesting because there's a lot of controversy surrounding them. People say that they might be damaging, might have toxic effects, and then that there aren't really super long-term studies on them. But I also had on Rachel Varga on my show and she was actually very pro retinols. She didn't think there was issues with them. I just-- So, I don't use them personally. I know they also increase sensitivity to the sun, I believe, so I don't personally use them. I've just stayed on the side of erring on not the counter timeline from Beautycounter. They formulated it to have the effects of retinols without having any actual retinols. 

Vanessa Spina: That's really interesting that they avoided putting retinols in it. I think that says a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: They gave a name for their complex that they created, that they have studies showing comparing it to retinols and showing similar effects. Since I can just easily not do it, I just go that route. So, yes, I would check out the counter timeline from Beautycounter if you're interested in an alternative. If you want to learn more about a supportive side of retinols, check out my episode with Rachel Varga and I will put a link to that in the show notes. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I really like all the exfoliation techniques that we're just talking about, and I like to use glycolic peels and masks that have glycolic agents in them. I know some of them can be a little bit stronger, like salicylic acid, but there's a lot that you can do, I think, without having to use retinoids. I think they're mostly for people who have acne. 

Melanie Avalon: I always thought they were for skin, for antiaging. Maybe it's both. 

Vanessa Spina: The retinoic acid, I think that's what's in Accutane. I think it's related. 

Melanie Avalon: Did you do Accutane? 

Vanessa Spina: I did do it because [chuckles] I had a boyfriend when I was in college and I had this weird episode where I did randomly break out, and he was like, “Oh, just take Accutane like I took it.” I think I did it for a week or something. My entire life never have any breakouts. I couldn't tell you the last time I had any kind of breakout or pimple or anything, so I've been really lucky with that because I know it's really difficult to deal with, and especially with using different creams, and then your skin becoming more sensitive and having to balance out an irritated eye. I just like I really feel for people who are dealing with acne. 

Melanie Avalon: I had it growing up. It was the worst. I was always doing what was that brand, that Proactiv. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I remember those ads. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It was the bane of my existence. So, I empathize as well. Beautycounter has counter control, which I don't have acne anymore. I did Accutane as well. That was a game changer for me. I do wonder now about the effects. There's a lot of controversy. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Like, you have to get blood work done and everything. It's really intense. 

Melanie Avalon: It was a whole thing for me. They made me go on birth control first before going on it. So, I went on birth control in 10th grade to get on Accutane, which, looking back, I'm like, that's just really annoying to me, you know the system. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a good thing that you didn't pick your lifelong partner when you were on birth-- 

Melanie Avalon: I know. My high school sweetheart. Oh, that's so true. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, your immunities would have been just not complimentary. 

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Wow. Good point. Yes, so, friends, skin, fasting, red light, Beautycounter, exfoliation. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode319. 

Something I didn't mention yet on this show. Speaking of Beautycounter, if you would like to be entered to win over $500 worth of products, just go to Apple Podcasts and pull up your review of this show or write a new review. To update it or write a new one and include in the review what you are excited to experience with Vanessa as the new co-host or what you're enjoying about the change in the show with Vanessa here on board, which we are having so much fun. So, send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will enter you to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter. 

And then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa's handle is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that's all the things. Anything for me, Vanessa, before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun. I love all the wonderful questions and I can't wait to record the next episode with you. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. Have a good evening. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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