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Apr 30

Episode 315: The Oldest Cure In The World, The Fascinating Fasting History, The Subjugation Of Women, Religious Fasting, Bernarr Macfadden & The Body Beautiful, Starving Cancer Cells, Fasting Clinics, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 315 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

3:50 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting

10:05 - The Research That Went Into The Book

13:00 - Steve's Personal Story

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #87 - Dr. Alan Goldhamer

18:00 - Dr. Henry Tanner, The Father Of Fasting

25:55 - Why Don't Doctors Believe In The Power Of Fasting?

31:20 - Heroic Medicine

35:15 - Historical Theories About Endogenous Energy Sources During Fasting

37:30 - Why Didn't People Notice It Was Fat That Was Being Burnt For Energy?

39:30 - Fasting In Greek History

45:45 - Fasting In Religion

49:10 - Women Taking On The Role Of Fasting 

55:10 - catherine of siena

54:00 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

55:00 - The Oppression Of Women Through Diet Control

1:00:45 - Jainism

1:04:50 - The Loss Of Fasting In Christianity And The Creation Of Lent

1:12:15 - Bernarr Macfadden

1:19:00 - Upton Sinclair

1:26:10 - The Dismissal Of Fasting In  Fasting In Modern Medicine

1:28:20 - "Tricking" People Into Fasting

1:30:05 - Valter Longo And Fasting Mimicking Diet

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

1:35:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8 - Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

1:39:20 - Fasting Clinics

1:42:05 - Alan Goldhamer's Data On Blood Pressure 

1:46:30 - Steve's Experience At The Clinic

1:49:40 - The Future Of Fasting

1:53:15 - Steve's Fasting Practices

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 315 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the TONE breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanievalon.com and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends. Have you ever felt ashamed or guilty when you eat certain foods. These are likely the, “forbidden foods” that you can't touch and you stay away from them. We are constantly faced with societal pressure and judgment around what we eat and how we look. So, we often feel guilty when we eat something that we think is bad for us. Instead of falling for this, we need to shift our focus to thoughtful nourishment where we are giving our body what it needs. You guys know we are obsessed with continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. NutriSense can help you identify which foods are good for you and what you should eat less of. They provide continuous glucose monitors, which track your glucose levels in real time. So basically, you're able to see, “Okay, I just ate this, and this is what happened to my blood sugar.” Once you're able to see the real impact of certain foods on your body, you can start making better food choices guilt free. 

The CGM is an objective tool through which you can see how your body reacts to different food. This is so important, not subjective, objective, and to make sense of all the data, because it can be a lot. NutriSense pairs you with an expert dietitian who will help you with personalized diet and lifestyle changes that are based on what works best for you. You just might be surprised to find that something you used to feel guilty about does not trigger blood sugar spikes after all. You can actually enjoy it in moderation. Maybe you don't need to avoid certain foods or feel guilty about it. Just sign up for the NutriSense program and start making correct food choices today. 

Curious how it works? A continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is so easy, so painless. Check out my Instagram, I post videos all the time of putting it on. Then there's the NutriSense app, with that you can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiments, and so much more. And then, of course, you get that expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month of free dietitian support. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They'll guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs. I get so much feedback about how people love this aspect of the program. It's really personalized and it really helps you make sense of everything. 

Go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That is nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. I will put all this information in the show notes. 

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it.

So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. We have a super special episode today. This is going to be a little bit different from our normal show. I interviewed Steve Hendricks on my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. He is the author of an incredible book called The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. Friends, that book blew my mind when I was reading it. I was just like, anybody who's even remotely interested in fasting or even if you're not, needs to read this book because it is that fascinating. So, when I aired it on that other show, I immediately knew I needed to air it on this show as well. 

We talk about so many things, like the role of fasting in historical cultures. Did the Greeks actually fast? We talk about fraud in fasting. Yes, that is a real thing. We talk about how fasting might have actually been used to control women historically in the Christian church. That's interesting. We talk about Valter Longo and the fasting mimicking diet, Dr. Alan Goldhamer and TrueNorth Health Center. We talk about some pretty crazy, more modern people in fasting. Really just be prepared to have your mind blown when it comes to all things fasting. So, I really hope you guys enjoy this episode. 

This is also serving as a transition episode between co-hosts. So, Cynthia Thurlow has been the co-host of this show for about the past year and we talked about this in episodes leading up to this, but she is actually leaving the show. And so, next week we have our new co-host, Vanessa Spina, also known as Ketogenic Girl and host of the Optimal Protein Podcast. Friends, you are going to love her. I am so excited about this. So, get excited for that. Take this moment as a sort of intermission and definitely let me know what you guys think.

By the way, if you enjoy this show, you'll probably really like my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, because it's basically like this show. I interview so many people, the world's top doctors, authors, and researchers on all things health and wellness. We're talking physical health and diet and exercise and mental health and wellness. I bring on people from all different perspectives. So, the best of the best in the keto and carnivore sphere, the best of the best in the vegan world. I've interviews with companies for products that you guys love. So, Joovv, red light therapy, Dry Farm Wines, NutriSense CGM, Tim Spector with the ZOE program. Of course, I've also interviewed figures that you guys hear a lot about, like Valter Longo, Jason Fung, Megan Ramos, so many things. So, definitely check out that show. In the meantime, enjoy this fabulous conversation with Steve Hendricks. 

Steve, thank you so much for your time and thank you for being here. 

Steve Hendricks: Oh, it's great to be with you, Melanie. I hope I can live up to that fantastic and very kind introduction. Thanks a million.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for you. I want to hear your personal story, but just a question to start off because I'm so curious. I mean, this book is like a textbook and it's like all of this history. How do you find all of this information? Do you look at Wikipedia? Where does one go to collect all of this information? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, the difficulty is that it's not in any one place, but that's of course, what makes I think the book very valuable. What I wanted it to be was to be both super comprehensive and it sounds like I checked that box for you, which is great. But I also wanted it to be lively. I wanted it to be a more vivid with characters and stories, a very relatable chronicle that people could-- you wouldn't think of a fasting book as a page turner, but that was my aim. My aim was to have the pages just fly by even though there was a lot of information. Now where do you go to find it? The book is sort of divided into three sections that are all sort of intertwined and overlapping. But as you said, it's the history of fasting and the science of fasting and my own experiences with fasting.

So, for the science of fasting, I go exactly where you go, which is reading those scientific studies and interviewing the most prominent researchers who have something interesting to say. The history was the trickier thing because there's so much written about the history of fasting, and unfortunately, a ton of it is wrong. So, you really have to dig pretty deep. And quite often there was an academic at some point will have written a book about fasting for a certain 500-year period in the Middle Ages, okay, awesome, great. So, I've got that period covered. Now what do I do about the other, like 2000 years of history before that and it's a real mix. 

Sometimes I'm reading academics books, sometimes I'm reading their studies. In a few cases, I'm going to the actual Greek or Latin or whatever sources, and I'm trying to find someone on social media who will be kind enough to translate sentences that I'm having trouble figuring out. But most of the time I'm relying on-- I'm a reporter, so I'm reporting on the work of academics. Unfortunately, while there's not as much out there about fasting as we'd like, there is a ton out there if you just uncover all the stones. That's what added up to the book. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm just blown away. I can't even imagine how much you had to read to get to it. I will say so you check the box about the comprehensive history. You definitely check the box, the second one about being lively and creating characters and page turner. There were literally times my mouth dropped open when I read parts about some of these things happening, which we can get into in this show. 

Steve Hendricks: If you could see me blushing now, don't stop, don't stop. 

Melanie Avalon: No, some of the stuff about the females fasting and the religious aspect of all of that. There're so many things. We can circle back to all that. Before that, your personal story, obviously, this is in the book. I'll just say, friends, listeners, we're not even going to remotely touch on everything in this book, so just get it now and you can hear everything. But you do share a lot about your personal fasting experience. So, could you tell listeners a little bit about that? You're a reporter, why did you become interested in fasting? Why are you writing about it now? I know you tried to write about it earlier and things happened with that, so why are you where you are today? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I first started writing about fasting in an article that I published for Harper's Magazine about 10 years ago. That was back in a time where there weren't a lot of people fasting as there are today. And so, it was viewed with a lot of skepticism. I wrote that article because I had come to become fascinated with fasting myself and I had practiced it myself. The center piece of the article was this 20-day fast that I had done. At that time, I was about 40 years old, maybe in my late 30s when I did this. 

I fasted for two reasons, one of which was the one that so many people come to fasting for. I just wanted to lose weight like a lot of people. I had put on a pound or two every year in my 20s and 30s and I'm 5'9" on a good day and I was weighing close to 170 pounds, whereas when I was at my lean in college I'd weigh 140. Partly I just wanted to lose weight. But I'd gotten interested in fasting and learned about fasting in the first place because I also was very interested in fasting for longevity.

I had originally started with caloric restriction, which as most of your listeners probably know, just means sharply limiting how many calories you're getting every day while still getting all your necessary nutrients. The problem with CR - caloric restriction is it is just fiendishly hard to do. It is just impossible. You're walking around hungry all the time and if you're a mere mortal like me, you're not some superhuman person. You just can't stick with caloric restriction. But the irony, well, of course, is that you can get many of the exact same benefits from a prolonged fast as you do in caloric restriction, yet you don't feel hunger. The irony is by doing the most calorically restricting thing of all just simply not eating, your hunger actually gets suppressed and so it becomes a much more doable thing. 

So, this was very appealing to me. So, someone who weighed too much and wanted to weigh less and was curious because I'd read these historic accounts of people who'd done long fasts. I wanted to see what it was like. Now I'll caution and say, knowing what I know now, I would not undertake a 20-day fast on my own without some kind of medical supervision because there are too many things that can go wrong. I'm not telling the audience what to do or what not to do, but I want to caution that fasting doctors have very good reason for saying you don't really want to be doing really long fasts on your own because some things could go wrong. But with that caveat, I did that 20-day fast. It went fantastic. I had a lot of ups and downs that a lot of other people have described when fasting, but ultimately found it to be a very satisfying experience and I lost all the weight that I wanted to lose. 

So, it was fantastic and I wrote this article and I'd like to tell you that in the 10 years since I wrote that article, it's all been a carpet of rose petals in my path, but that has not been the case. We can talk about that, but my health actually deteriorated over the years throughout my 40s, I'm 52 now, and it was eventually fasting and I believe dietary change that have rescued me. 

Melanie Avalon: That was something that I loved was that you've had so many experiences with fasting. Like, for me, I started doing intermittent fasting in college and I did the type I'm still doing today, which is one meal a day, eating at night. I haven't done a long, extended fast like you. I haven't done-- you've tried ADF, you've gone to fasting clinics. I was really thrilled because in the opening of the book, you talk about and throughout the book, Alan Goldhamer, who I've had on the show at TrueNorth and I was super excited to hear your experience there.

So, it's super valuable, I think that you have had experience with all of these different fasts. There's something I wanted to comment on really quickly. I love the distinction that you have between fasting and calorie restriction. For example, you talk in the book about people looking at World War II and starvation and saying, “Well, if fasting has all these health benefits, why did people not get really healthy from starvation in World War II.” And it's the subtle nuance of having just enough calories to not let you actually be fasting. And then they're also malnourished not having enough food so, there's so much complexity, and I'm so happy that you tackle all of it. There're so many directions I want to go with this. You talked about the colorful characters in the history of fasting. I imagine because there were so many different people, why did you settle on Dr. Henry Tanner as the father of modern fasting and why did you choose to open the book with his story and everything that he did? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, great question. So, Henry Tanner was this doctor who was born in the 1830s, say he was a doctor. He was indeed a doctor, but not a medical doctor. He was what was then called an eclectic doctor, which is something like a naturopath today. So, he was an alternative medicine practitioner and somewhere along the way he had picked up fasting, short fasts, a couple of days here, three days there as a useful tool. Well, it turned out in 1877, he had fallen on hard times. He had just lost his wife. He was living in Twin Cities of Minnesota then and he had all kinds of ailments. He had a stomach condition that may have been a stomach flu. He had basically something that sounded like a nervous breakdown. He had heart problems and so on. He decides then that he's going to fast long enough to either cure himself or by one account kill himself and he didn't care what the difference was. 

So, I started with him in part because he's such a quirky character. I'm not very good at remembering my own quotations and so on, but some of the things that he said were just out of left field, but also because he was the first person who in a scientific kind of way-- in a case study, scientific kind of way, sat down and said, “Well, I'm going to fast, and I'm going to see if fasting cures me and see what happens.” And he did it, there had been previous doctors along the way who had been noticing these cures and trying to write about it, but he did it in a way that got the message out to the entire world. What happens is he does this fast. At this time, it was expected-- people thought at this time you could not go longer than 8 to 10 days without food or you would die. 

What Tanner found is when he reached 8 to 10 days, not only had all of his problems started falling away and all of them eventually got cured in the accounts that we have of this fast, but he felt even better, he felt even stronger than he ever had before. And so, he ended up finding out on day 20 something or whatever of his fast, because he just kept going and going because he was curious to see how long this fast could go without his suffering. He would find himself walking 10, 15, 20 miles a day, which is vigorous exercise for 1877. That could be a lot of exercise today. So, he does this fast, he cures himself, he breaks his fast after 41 days, and he had no intention of advertising it, but a friend of his, another doctor who had helped sort of supervise him during his fast, reported it in a medical journal in Chicago. 

It got out to the world and everyone just completely ridiculed him, said, "He must be lying. There's no way that you could fast this long." Through series of other events, he's wanting to prove himself to redeem his name and an opportunity arises for him to go to New York City three years later in 1880, and there to repeat his fast of 40 days on a stage in front of people in New York. He was completely ridiculed at first, but there was this prurient interest in his fast because, oh, my gosh, he's going to fast beyond perhaps 8 to 10 days. What's going to happen? Is he going to die on stage? Interest grew and grew. This was a presidential election year. He was getting more coverage than the presidential contenders. His feat was being recorded all over the world. He went through the 8 to 10 days with no problem and kept fasting for 20 days and then 30, and eventually broke his fast at 40 days. 

What happened with this, unfortunately, when he was in New York, he didn't have anything wrong with him. He wanted to prove that fasting could cure, he didn't have anything to be cured, so it didn't make the splash that he wanted it to make. But because it was reported in every newspaper in the United States and most of the newspapers in Europe and even some in Africa and Asia, he got the message out, the idea out that fasting might just be curative. And from that point on, that's really where we see this more scientific interest in fasting for health taking off in a way that it never had before, because it's fasting and it's counterintuitive and people don't want to do it. It was a very, very slow growth to get from there to where we are today. But without Henry Tanner, we wouldn't be where we are today. 

Melanie Avalon: It sounds like social media, like the first-time fasting was in the eye of the public, and everybody was paying attention. So, on this stage, he literally just sat on the stage? 

Steve Hendricks: It was a very barren stage because they wanted to make sure that there wasn't any hidden food and that no one would sneak food into him. He had a cot and he had a chair, and people could bring him reading material if it had been searched before. It got to the extent that if people were sort of reaching up and shaking a hand with him, they would inspect his hands to make sure that there wasn't food being passed to him, being palmed off to him or something. So, yeah, it was just sitting there and talking with people for 40 days. Newspaper editors sent over teams of reporters to watch him for 24 hours a day. He also had his own sort of core of watchers drawn from medical students and other doctors and so on. But, yeah, it was just sitting there doing nothing but not eating. 

Melanie Avalon: What was the significance of his show off with Dr. Hammond?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so, Dr. Hammond, who was a former surgeon general of the United States, he was part of the occasion that gave Tanner the reason to go to New York to fast, and that's that Dr. Hammond was extremely skeptical of a group of women who were called the fasting maids. These were women who usually actually girls more than women, but young women and girls who had claimed a fasting power. They would claim that they could go months or in some cases even years without eating or with barely eating. And it was completely fraudulent. Not a bit of it was true. He had made it his mission to unmask these fasting maids. He'd even written a book doing his best to unmask them. It happened that there was one in Brooklyn in 1879, 1880, who had claimed to go, “I forget forever, basically, with hardly eating anything.” 

He had challenged her. Her name was Mollie Fancher to fast in public under the watchful eye of doctors round the clock. She said no, she could not be examined by male doctors. Her feminine honor would have been impugned and so on. That was the point at which Henry Tanner in Minneapolis, because all this was being reported in the newspapers around the country, Henry Tanner said, “Well, I'll come to New York and I will fast in her place.” 

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, got you. 

Steve Hendricks: I'm sorry you asked, so, what became of the standoff? Well, eventually, Hammond had to admit that people could, in fact, go longer than he had ever expected without food. He still, of course, rightly, thought that the fasting maids were a croc, but he had to revamp and revisit his ideas about just how people could survive in the absence of calories. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Something I liked about that, like I called it a show off was. It felt like an analogy for a theme throughout the history of fasting with conventional medicine. People positing this other idea of fasting because it seemed like you're talking about how Hammond was a very respected conventional doctor and Tanner was of a different, I don't know what the word would be like woo-woo or alternative. So, it seems like that was a theme throughout, especially later in the fasting history, I think, there were so many forces against fasting. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, emphatically so, conventional doctors have always had a hard time accepting fasting and even today, it's the rare conventional doctor who will look at the science. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah. Why do you think if you had to pick one, well, you don't have to pick one, but if you had to why do you think that is? 

Steve Hendricks: Sure. No, that's a great question. That's one I've been wrestling with for about 15 years. I think the biggest reason is simply this. Fasting is premised on the idea that the body can heal itself. If we get out of its way, it knows what to do. Now, it's not a cure all. I'm not saying it's going to fix every single disease, but my goodness, it can reverse cardiovascular disease and arthritis and diabetes and even one form of cancer, at least. I could go down a list of 50 diseases that we have good evidence that fasting, prolonged fasting in particular, can reverse. That is not something that doctors have been very good at hearing. 

Certainly, and I make this case throughout history, there was a period, even in the early 19th century, where the form of medicine that was most widely practiced by conventional doctors was called heroic medicine and it was horrible. The whole premise of it was, the doctor is going to be the hero. He's going to come in and save the day, and he's going to do this by bleeding the patient of-- leaders of his blood, of making him vomit, of making her have diarrhea with a purgative, of blistering the skin and all this that we're going to just whip the disease out of people, and it undoubtedly killed more people than it helped. 

But that mentality, of course, doctors aren't doing that badly today, but they still have this mentality that disease is something that we have to conquer with technology, with our know how, with our fancy medical degrees and all the stuff that we've learned in medical school and our residencies and so on, and letting that go and saying, “You know what?” If you just back off and monitor these people, make sure they stay healthy while they do their fasting, their bodies can actually do the healing without you. It's that without you part that's very threatening to conventional doctors. I'll just close this little sermon by saying, “Look, I've gotten a lot of benefit out of Western medicine. I think conventional medicine has a lot of amazing points to it.” So, I'm not trying to condemn all of conventional medicine. It has saved me more than once. However, this is an enormous oversight and I think that's where doctors fall down. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought up the heroic medicine. I was saying in the beginning how I'd have moments where my jaw dropped open hearing the things that people would go through with that. I just kept asking myself, “Why did people let these doctors do this to them?” To that question, was it a cultural zeitgeist of just believing the system that these things were helping? Was it ironically enough, the fact that because the body can heal itself that if people survived the heroic medicine and then the body healed themselves, then they would just credit the heroic medicine? How did this go on for so long? And relatively recently, if you think about it wasn't that long ago that this was happening relative to humanity. 

Steve Hendricks: True. Some iterations of this were continuing into the 20th century, for sure. It's some of all of what you say. So, yes, every time you tortured someone [laughs] who was sick and that person didn't die, well, gosh, if you were the doctor, you could claim that your heroic medicine saved them. And so, in the absence of the scientific method existed, but it was really rudimentary back then, and in the absence of any real science, it was just impossible for people to prove. You could discount it. You could say, oh, I doubt that, or something, but you couldn't prove that the heroic medicine had been more harmful than helpful. But I think the other piece of it that you hit on as well is it is an extremely counterintuitive thing for all people, not just doctors, to accept that if we leave our body alone, it wants to heal itself. 

So, you find these accounts when you go back and look through the history of medicine, of doesn't matter where it is. It could be the US, it could be Germany, France, Russia, you find these accounts from 100, 200, 500 years ago where a doctor writes something along the lines of, “It seems that if I leave my patients alone, some of them actually do better than when I give them the medicines.” That was emphatically true back then, the medicines of the day were almost all quackery, unless, by luck, they happened onto some herbal remedy of some kind. They seem to get better. But here's the problem. When a patient is sick, they call me to their bedside and what they want is a cure. They want a pill. They want a potion. It's very much like today. They don't want to hear, “Go home and don't eat for three days and see if that makes your fever better.” 

It's an extremely hard thing for people to hear and you can understand why. I mean, when you have all the science, it just seems ridiculous, like you want to just shake these people. But in the absence of the science, what people are left with are their own impressions. Well, what do we feel like when we don't eat well? We feel weak. Our minds quite often slow down. We're not able quite often to do the same amount of work as we did before. Everything in our own experience tells us that not eating does not make us feel better. I think when a doctor comes along and says try this, it's an extremely hard thing to accept on both sides of that picture, both for the skeptical doctors who doubt this remedy and for patients who are equally skeptical throughout history. 

Melanie Avalon: Chronologically, it's hard prescribing fasting for all the reasons that you just mentioned, and then retroactively, if the person does heal, there are so many examples in the book where fasting won't even be credited. You talk about the woman at TrueNorth Health Clinic and her spontaneous remission. They wouldn't say it was the fasting that did it, it was just spontaneous remission. Or you talked about, I think, a study looking at or I don't know if it was a study, but it was something looking at keto versus fasting-mimicking diet and fasting for epilepsy. And they didn't credit the fasting. They credit the diet aspects. So, even when fasting does work, it's like we can't give it the credit for what it did. 

But another thought that this made me think of was there were so many moments in the book where it was things I just took for granted that it had never occurred to me that people historically were not aware or saw things completely differently. So, for example, the idea that what we burn when we're fasting, could you talk a little bit about theories that people had about what we were running off of energy wise? 

Steve Hendricks: Isn't that incredible? We all know that we run on our fat, at least for most of the time. Yeah, we burn a little bit of protein and so on, but it's basically our fat. But no, people didn't know that, even as late as Henry Tanner's day. So, again, we're talking 1880. There were scientific journals about, there were scientific studies of nutrition and body composition and things like this. People debated endlessly what he was surviving on. Some of the theories were that the water that he was drinking had what were called animalcule, which was just these fancy word for just tiny, tiny organisms in his water, and that his body was surviving off of digesting those organisms. Other people believed that the air contained nutrients and the more people who were around then the more nutrients were being-- In theory, the nutrients were expelled by people who were breathing them out of their bodies, and then other people could breathe them in.

If you weren't eating, you could be nourished by breathing in these nutrients. There was one person who accused Henry Tanner of doing this fast in New York, because there were millions of people there. So, far more people breathing into the air. Other people would claim, of course, fasting has mostly throughout history been used for religious purposes, so people would claim divine assistance of some kind. That was, of course, the mechanism was never stated, but basically you didn't need to eat because your stomach was filled by the Holy Ghost or Jesus or whoever it was you were crediting that to. So, yeah, it was a quite a while, really, until the 20th century before people were-- science had settled the question of what do you burn when you're not eating, you burn your fat.

Melanie Avalon: I think one of the other ones was like, women burning their menstrual cycle or living off of that. 

Steve Hendricks: Oh, right. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Crazy. Do you think if we had had the obesity epidemic earlier so if people were overweight-- When people lose weight from fasting or calorie restriction today, people can lose a lot of weight, and you can clearly tell something left their body, so it seems more obvious that you burned something away. But do you think because people weren't-- we didn't have obesity to the extent that we did today, it wasn't as noticeable that people were losing fat? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's quite probable. Another piece of it is, in order to lose a whole bunch of fat, you have to fast for a very long time. Although fasting has been around for a very long time throughout most of history, most people when they fasted were fasting for only a few days. There were a few people who fasted weeks or months, but they were very, very rare. So, even if you were obese, let's say you're my height, 5'9", you weighed 300 pounds, you fast for three days, you're not going to notice any fat loss. It's going to be very, very subtle. So, I think that was a piece of and that also changed after Tanner's fast. Once people realized in the late 19th century. "Oh, my gosh, you can fast 40 days and survive." Then you got people who were doctors, who were occasionally fasting patients as long as 50, 60, 75 days. And then, of course, it would have been extremely noticeable at that point whether the person was overweight or not, that they were losing their fat. But that didn't happen throughout most of history. So, that's probably a piece of it. 

Melanie Avalon: And so, you touched on this little bit just now with the types of fast that people were doing. You touched on it in the beginning about what was or was not true. So, something that really blew me away was, I think, for most people, if they think about the history of fasting and what they think they know about it, there's just this idea, like with the Greeks, for example, we think Hippocrates was all about "Let food be thy medicine." I guess we can question if he even said that. But there is this idea that, “Oh, the old ancient people knew what they were doing, and the Greeks were fasting.” And were the Greeks really fasting? What was happening there? What was the role of fraud in the history of fasting? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. So, I first started fasting, I was greatly relieved to hear that fasting was this ancient practice. If you're into fasting, you've all seen these quotes. Supposedly Plato had written, “I fast for greater physical and mental efficiency.” Plutarch said, “Instead of medicine, fast a day.” Hippocrates said, “To eat when you are sick is to feed your sickness.” There are all these quotations and stories out there and it turned out on examining them, one or two of which I had even related myself from what seemed like reliable sources when I first wrote about fasting a decade ago. When I dug deeper and really looked at the sources, it turns out, no. Almost none of that. All those quotations I just said, all bogus, every one of them. 

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. And they're repeated, I mean, some of them were created pretty recently, within the last few decades. Some of them, there's a story about Pythagoras who was said to have fasted, was made to fast, before he became a student in Egypt for 40 days. Didn't like it, but he did it, fell in love with it, and made all of his students fast for 40 days as well, before they started studying with him. Well, it turns out that's not true. It wasn't something that was developed yesterday. That was developed by people who were trying to glorify Pythagoras and associate him through the 40-day fast with the 40-day fasting of Elijah and Moses and whoever else. So, anyway, these stories are told for various reasons, but the reason they persist today is because they are extremely comforting to people who are doing this weird thing that, until very recently, no one else was doing. They provide this kind of sense of, “Oh, you are part of this long worthy tradition with these noble people who came up with mathematical theorems and so on. So, it must be a good thing.” 

In fact, the truth is, while it's true that we owe probably the first really deep signs anyway of therapeutic fasting to the ancient Greeks and to people around the time of Hippocrates, they had no idea what to do with it. The reason they had and they had no idea what to do with just about anything to do with medicine. The reason is because there was a taboo on dissecting bodies. You couldn't look inside the body, you couldn't see what was going on, so, they made up these cockamamie theories. The one that eventually won out was called humoralism. It held that if you keep your body's four humors in balance, those were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. So, they believed if you kept them in balance, then you would be healthy. When they got out of balance, then you would be unhealthy. That's why you get to such things as bleeding people, is that's to try to get their blood amount back in balance. Well, it was all completely nonsense, but all of medicine was based on that. 

The few things that have come out about fasting from this time are just useless, almost all of them. So, for instance, a writer in the Hip-- I should say, we don't know if Hippocrates wrote any of the works that are ascribed to him. There are about 60 works in the Hippocratic corpus. They were probably mostly written by family disciples, whatever, some by impostors. But anyway, within the Hippocratic corpus, one of these Hippocratic writers will say something like, “When you have hiccups or you have muscle spasms, you should either fast or overeat.” And it's like, “Well, which one?” Those are opposites. It was full of this kind of nonsensical stuff. 

Now, all that being said, the Greeks did because they were open to fasting and because their big contribution, big contribution that Hippocrates and his colleagues made was that previously medicine was just seen as something that happened by divine fate or something. They said, “No, there are actual causes to diseases. We can learn to understand what those are, and sometimes we may be able to treat them.” Now, the fact that their treatments ended up being wacky doesn't discredit this enormous advance they gave us. And because of that advance, people over the centuries started experimenting with fasting. Eventually they got around to just through random chance practically stumbling on some things that did seem to work here and there. They weren't very prominent, they didn't last super long, but you could see these kinds of bubbling up of fasting intelligence over the years. 

One of the reasons I went into kind of what you're calling them fasting fraud of these ancient quotations and stories and so on is because I just don't think that they're so widespread, they're everywhere, they're unfortunately, every health website and anyone who talks about fasting usually resorts to one or two of them. What you find is I don't think that helps us. What helps us is not sort of covering ancient fasting in a glory that it doesn't deserve, but actually understanding where fasting came from, being humble about what things we did know and didn't know when as a species and therefore treating fasting with a lot more care, I hope. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like now I need to go through all my blogs and my book and my podcast. I'm sure I've been sharing some of this misinformation. This is just a random tangent. The thing you were saying about how the cure for what was it for hiccups was either to fast or to overeat. I actually was reading a study about fasting the other day. I was researching fasting's effect on pain because of a listener question for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and I found a really interesting study, and it was all about how both fasting and eating can relieve pain. Super random tangent. [laughs] So, maybe there was something with the hiccups, I don't know. 

Steve Hendricks: Right. I mean, well, there could have been something there. Had there been a more scientific way of parsing through the various evidence, something might have grown out of that, but they just didn't have that at the time. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You mentioned it in the book, but when we're looking at these quotes, how do we figure out that these sentences weren't uttered by these people? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so the first clue is, if someone's not offering a citation, don't trust them. [laughs] They may well be right, of course, not everything has citations. But the simple thing to do is to go and look, to see who is making those quotations with citations and then just keep following them back like you'll find that I don't know that this quotation say, “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food,” from Hippocrates, which you see everywhere and no Hippocratic writer ever wrote that. What happens is if you start chasing it back, one article will cite another article, which will cite another article, and often this is in the scholarly literature, but no one will be citing an ancient Greek source. Once you get back to the very earliest one of these, that's maybe in 1910 or maybe it's in 1842 or whatever, and you found that on Google Books or somewhere like that, if you go as far back as you can and there's nothing more beyond that, [laughs] then you have to conclude that it's probably made up. You can check some of these by, if you want, emailing your favorite, I don't know, Hippocrates scholar and saying this quotation seems to be completely bogus. Are you familiar with this in any of the Hippocratic writings, nope. They'll usually be able to help you out in such a straight.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so interesting. It speaks to a broader problem of that just happening in general, I imagine, in the scientific literature, because all it takes is some idea to slip into some journal somewhere, and then that's quoted, and then that’s quoted and then we're lost with it. I know that happened with, I think with the quote about how many top soils generations we have left. I know there was something about that. Like somebody said a quote about that at some conference without a citation, and then it made its way into some literature, and then it just kept getting quoted. But I imagine it happens with a lot of things. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. Once it makes it into an academic publication, whether it's a peer reviewed scientific journal or a book by an academic, forget it. Then everyone in the world will cite it, and it's just a lost cause. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, you mentioned 40 days a lot and I think probably a lot of people when they think of 40-day fast, they might think of Jesus' 40-day fasts. I was super fascinated by the history of fasting in different religions. Okay, so to start, here's a quote people will say all the time, they'll say that, “Fasting appears in every major religion.” Does it appear in every major religion? 

Steve Hendricks: It appears in almost every major religion. Now, you could split hairs over what's a major religion, but yes, in virtually every major religion. The one exception is Zoroastrianism, which is in Persia, modern day Iran, Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism. Almost all religions experimented, and some wildly adopted some form of asceticism just being really savage to your body. One form that was available to everyone was fasting. 

So, every religion, practically, certainly every major religion that has evolved has had to wrestle with what is the place for asceticism in our religion. Zoroaster, after experimenting with it, eventually decided that it was extremely harmful. He thought that fasting in particular would leave you too weak to farm, too weak to create productive and strong offspring. He chose a kind of more hedonistic almost view of the world and said, “No, we're not going to fast.” What's curious about this is that it's basically, as I say, a slightly hedonistic religion telling people that this is not a sin and that is not a sin, and you can do a bunch of things that these other religions won't. 

Well, today Zoroastrianism has 200,000 followers, and that's it in the entire world. Meanwhile, the religion, it mostly lost out to is Islam, which in some forms is very strict about what you can and can't do. And there are a billion Muslims. So, I don't know what the heck that says about human psychology, but that's a long way of saying that with the exception of Zoroastrianism, virtually all other religions, certainly the religions most of us have heard of had some place for fasting, but it varied enormously. Some places, some religions, it was a very small role. In other religions, it practically took over the whole religion. 

Melanie Avalon: In Hinduism, because I think that was one of the first religions you talked about that was primarily for enlightenment, was the purpose of fasting? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, the idea was that if you could eliminate desire, you could reach nirvana. So, they would do all kinds of ascetic practices. They would deny themselves sleep, shelter, clothing, family. This is the first time you really get into really ascetic monks who are doing an almost athletic like training for the soul. One of the ways was fasting, this idea that it was a way of renouncing desire, which Hinduism at that time certainly saw as a holy path. Early Hinduism is one place where fasting just grew and grew and grew. And you can see how it happens. If a little bit of fasting makes you holy, then a whole lot of fasting--

Melanie Avalon: Really holy.

Steve Hendricks: Exactly and that's exactly what happens. So, you eventually get to a point where there are Hindu calendars in ancient Hinduism that have 140 days of the year set aside for fasting. The sad part of it is, eventually the men who ran the religion decided that the people most in need of fasting were women. So, the fasting burden fell very heavily on women, very lightly on men. It took a reaction many years later to sort of tamp that down. But even today, if you speak to Hindu families and say, “Who in your family fasts?” You are much more likely to find women who fast than men do. And this is not an uncommon theme. This is exactly what happened in Christianity as well. 

Melanie Avalon: No. So, I think this was my favorite theme [chuckles] in the book. I was blown away by how often it occurred and what happened when it occurred. So, even with the Greeks, I think you said that when there was fasting, it was more with women, I don't know, that just never occurred to me. I don't remember which culture or time it was, but there was one example where women could fast because it was the one thing they could do. Like, men would go on vagabond things and they could do all this other stuff, but the only thing women could do was fast. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, during the Middle Ages, fasting really took hold in Christianity probably 100, 200 years or so after the death of Jesus, who didn't have much at all to say about fasting. Like most Jews who fasted him, he surely fasted, but he didn't have much to do with it. Early Christians didn't have much to do with it. But eventually Christians decided that the church fathers who ran Christianity at the time, that fasting could basically be used to subjugate women. The problem was that men were these very holy, devout creatures. But, yeah, they were little bit weak. They were tempted by this temptress woman who God had just put down here to torment male Christians was almost the view. And so, the idea was that you could neutralize female sexuality by getting women to fast. Sexuality was important, because by this time in Christianity, the sexual being had come to be seen as impure and tainting and so on. 

Fasting was supposed to dry up the moist humors. Remember the crazy humoralism we talked about earlier was predominating. Dry up the moist humors in women that were supposed to behind female lust. If you took fasting far enough, it could obliterate womanhood. It could pare the hips, get rid of breasts and buttocks, it could end menstruation. This wasn't supposed to be a punishment, so the church father said anyway, this was supposed to be something to aim for, to make yourself more holy, and your reward would be becoming a bride of Christ. This was quite literally meant some of the creepiest erotic writings of late antiquity.

Melanie Avalon: It's so creepy. 

Steve Hendricks: Isn't it? Are these scenes where Christ is uniting with his virgin brides in the heavenly bridal chamber or something? It's just obscene. It's not to say that every woman in Christianity fasted herself to this near starvation, but that was certainly the ideal that was held out. And so, you find by the time you get to the Middle Ages in the Renaissance, the vast majority of saints who are women in the Catholic hierarchy, who have been sainted, are these fasting saints. They have these very anorexic traits. Some of them literally starve themselves to death. Most of them just starve themselves into illness and probably an early death because of it, though, of course, we can't say for sure. That brings us to what you just referred to. 

Devout Christians were supposed to be practicing some form of asceticism. It didn't have to be as crazy as what the saints were doing and so on, but it needed to be something. Lots of forums were open to men, and one of the biggest ones of the day was called mendicancy, which is just going around homeless from town to town, begging, saying, “I'm a monk, I'm a brother of Christ, please give me food, or whatever." Your penance was to have or not penance, but your sort of duty was to have a life with few possessions and to live on the goodness of others. When women tried that, there were a few who did, the most famous is known as Clare of Assisi. When she tried it, she was told, “Well, this homeless vagabonding is not in keeping with pure womanhood, so get back into your abbey and forget this kind of thing.” And so, what was open to her was the power over her own body? 

So, on the one hand, while it was a very misogynistic, very horrible set of doctrine that were being handed to girls and women throughout Europe of this time. On the other hand, some of them did this kind of reclaiming thing. Well, okay, all you're going to give me is the power over my own body, I'm going to use it to starve my way to heaven, they would basically think. So, you have one theory anyways to how you got so many of these fasting saints. There was just nothing else or very little else left over that they could do that would achieve for them the equivalent amount of holiness as the men were achieving through their asceticism. 

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Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That was such a crazy ironic dichotomy that on the one hand fasting was used to really oppress these women and repress their sexuality and control them. And then on the other hand, it was like the one thing the women could do to assert themselves. [laughs] It's so ironic. My sister came over the other night and I was telling her about the book and about all of this and I was telling her about these saints who actually were probably anorexic and died from that, and then they were canonized as saints. I found the page in the book that you mentioned with those passages of the bride of Christ stuff, and I was like, “You have to read this.” It's just fascinating. You talk about Catherine of Siena, who is one of the probably anorexic saints that died. You can still see her body, like parts of her body at places. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. There's this creepy thing in Catholicism where they have, in churches and cathedrals, these reliquaries and the relics that are in the reliquaries are often the body parts of saints. So, when a saint would die, sometimes it's a whole body. But people everywhere wanted a little bit of something, so they might chop off a finger and send that to one town, chop off a foot and send that to another town. So, anyway, her body is scattered around Italy. Catherine of Siena was perhaps, no doubt about it, was the greatest, most powerful fasting saint. She had an influence over the popes of the time. She had an influence over various princes and so on and their political dealings. She helped propagate one of the crusades that was happening in her era. 

She died very early, almost certainly because she had weakened herself too much through too much fasting. So, she died in her early 30s. She died in Rome. She was from Siena and someone chopped off her head at some point and brought her head back to Siena. If you go into the Cathedral in Siena, you will see her head still there. You can google it. It's online. It's shocking how well preserved it is, given that we're talking about something kind of forget the dates, but six or seven centuries ago. But yes, it's this creepy thing that is done in a lot of Catholic churches to take these various body parts. 

Melanie Avalon: Because I think we like to think that we're beyond this, but do you think this theme has kind of continued with maybe not as much today with the health at every size movement, but, like, Parisian fashion and runway models. Is that a continuation of that theme? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, it's a very good question, Melanie. And I'm not sure. I went into such detail about how fasting has been used to oppress women, because food and how much you should and shouldn't eat is, of course, still being used to just ruin women's lives, even if it's in a much more secular way of, say, Paris Fashion Week than a dictum from the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know. I never found a scholarly article or report or something that drew a very clear line and said, this is why we're having trouble today. The parallels to what was going on in the past and what is going on today with women's bodies were strong enough that I just wanted to lay that out there. You're astute to notice that, to ask whether there's a connection. In the book, I don't say and that I don't say because I don't have answer. So, possibly yes, possibly no.

Regardless of whether there's a straight connection, I think we can learn from it. It's not a super sophisticated message here. It's just that women have been screwed over by usually men telling them what the hell to do with their bodies. And I especially wanted to be sensitive to that because I tell you, when I talk about-- I mean, I've been talking about fasting with people for 15 years hands down. The ones who resist it far more. The gender that resists it are women more than men. Well, it definitely has to do with some of these themes. Whether it's directly linked to what happened in history, who knows. I think we need to recognize that and understand it and be sympathetic to it. 

Melanie Avalon: It's such a complex and complicated topic, and you're talking about women being resistant to fasting. I definitely see it, just especially with The Intermittent Fasting Podcast and all the questions we get, because there are a lot of studies on the science of the health benefits of fasting, particularly in women and particularly for hormonal issues, PCOS, a lot of benefits that can be had. There's also a huge concern that women shouldn't be fasting. It's hard to piece out how much of that is from themes we all just talked about societal issues of women and eating or how much it's just that women might tend to over restrict and be too restrictive in diet and lifestyle and fasting. I don't know, it's just a very complex topic, and another reason I love your book so much. I hadn't considered the history of fasting in women at all as a piece in it. So, it's really interesting. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I would love it if someone could come up with answer to that question. Hopefully some scholar will turn to that someday. 

Melanie Avalon: Another religion that was super interesting, Jainism. What happens with fasting there and there's suicide fasting?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, it's really something. Jainism probably took fasting to an even greater extreme than Christianity did. So, Jainism, certainly at that time, the belief Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism all kind of grew out of the same, they're called Vedic religions in ancient India, and they've interpreted them different ways and often in reaction to each other. Partly because Hinduism, even as crazy as it was with fasting, and Buddhism, which was much more moderate with fasting, because they were both kind of on the slightly more moderate side than Jainism. Jainism reacted by taking fasting to quite an extreme and they took a lot of dogma to extreme. Their main view is that life is either suffering or it's causing suffering. Even grass is alive, so if you walk across the grass, you're causing suffering. The problem with that is that all organisms are composed of karma, which they've conceived of as these sort of literal bits, sort of like atoms. 

Your karma are mostly bad deeds and they keep the soul from soaring to heaven. They literally weigh your soul down so that it can't soar to heaven. Fasting, they decided, burned off bad karma. So, they would take fasting to some very extreme practices. One of them was this year long thing that they called Varsha Thapa which, if I remember it correctly, you eat nothing from sunrise until sunset 36 hours later. Then you eat after sunset. Once you've done that, you start all over again. At sunrise, fast another 36 hours till sunset. Eat a little more, do it again at sunrise. You do this for an entire year, which is just insane. So, they had all these practices, but the one that has gotten the most attention is this suicidal one you referred to. That was called Sallekhana and Sallekhana was simply starvation unto death. The original idea was that if you were as enlightened as you could possibly be, you had nothing more to achieve in this life. You had burned off as much karma as you could. Well, what was the point in continuing to live? If you continue to live, you might just rack up some more bad karma. You might inflict suffering. You could starve yourself to death.

Very, very devout Jains did this. We don't have an idea as to how many people did this over time. We're not talking millions here. We're talking probably well, today we think that there are probably a couple of hundred people a year who are doing this. Now, in modern times, it's been modified somewhat, so you don't have to be near enlightenment and so on. If you have a terminal illness, you've got a terminal diagnosis, there's no hope for you, you can starve yourself to death rather than suffering. 

There are cases in the west, of course, not just in Jainism, where people have done this, not a ton, but a few, who I speak of a writer, Sue Hubbell, who in 2018 got a dementia diagnosis and it was getting worse and worse and worse. And she essentially practiced Sallekhana. She starved herself to death for about 34 days. And so, people report that this is not a completely painless death, but it is much more painless than many other ways to go, and that the pain is very manageable and that all in all, it's kind of a peaceful death. So, who knows. I don't have much else to say in favor of Jainism, but it seems like an interesting thing to consider for those who are terminally ill. 

Melanie Avalon: Jainism, when I was reading about it, literally, it sounds like the definition of you just can't win. You just can't win. [chuckles] Everything you do is not good. How do you think that compares to somebody dying on their deathbed and then they stop eating and that's how they die? That seems to be very common or more common. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. There's quite often in the last stages of death, if you have a cancer or something, then it's just one of these lingering things where you've been dying of the cancer for six months. Quite often, in the last two days, three days, seven days, maybe you'll just lose your appetite and that's your body shutting down and basically preparing for death, as I have had it explained to me anyway. And I think that makes sense. This is a different category of thing, this is-- I have cancer, it's a terminal diagnosis, I could linger for six months and deal with the pain, the medication, the whatever else or I could starve myself to death and be dead in 30 days. In the Sue Hubbell's case, she had dementia. Heck, she was only, I think, in her 60s. She might have lived another 25 years. The difference is it's consciously seizing the opportunity to shorten that period of what for a lot of people would be hell. 

Melanie Avalon: Something I would love to know. I've never thought about this. I'd be super curious because we know of all of the processes that are activated by fasting and cellular renewal and all of the benefits. I wonder when a person is on their deathbed and then they do enter that state where their body is shutting down and they stop eating, I wonder if they still activate all those processes or if it's different. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that would be really interesting to know because the reason that most of us, well, many of us fast is because it initiates all these repair mechanisms. If your body kind of has some inkling, I assume that it's going to die-

Melanie Avalon: Like nose.

Steve Hendricks: -right, [laughs] would it bother with the repairs? I have no idea. I don't think it's ever been studied anywhere. 

Melanie Avalon: It would be a sad and a morbid study. I would be very curious, though. Just before we leave the religious aspect because I think people, especially since Christian is such a large religion, they might have been surprised to hear that fasting wasn't as prominent or as big as a part as maybe we have thought it might have been, especially with Jesus and the 40-day fast and everything. You talk about how-- I think when Jesus talks about fasting, he talks more about doing it in private rather than public. So, like, Lent, what's going on there?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so that's a really good question. What happened was, after Jesus, we have what we think is a pretty good record of what he probably said. But He didn't lay out how to build an entire society and how to do everything. The church fathers had to come up with a lot of doctrine. Although the early church fathers sort of heeded Jesus-- Jesus had come and basically said all these silly dietary laws and everything else that the Jews are doing, you don't need to mess with that. Like, just, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If you obey that golden rule, then the rest will fall into place. Just don't get bogged down with 3000 laws. So, one of those things that people assumed that he was talking about was don't get bogged down with fasting. In the first century or so after his death, there was not much fasting in Christianity. I mean, some of them had just-- they had been many of them, most of them, probably Jews. Jews fasted, so they'd probably done some fasting and so on. 

But then, what happened was that the church fathers found that they could make fasting into something extremely useful to them. I've discussed the importance of subjugating women in order to keep them in their place and not tempt men. It wasn't all just that. I mean, that was a huge part of what was going on. But there was also, for instance, there came to be an idea that evolved a century or two after Jesus' death that was called the [unintelligible [01:07:58] angelicus, the life of the angels. The idea was that you should try to be on earth as much as you would be when you become angel or a deceased or whatever they thought they would be in Heaven. And angels were obviously incorporeal. They didn't have bodies, so they didn't eat. So, to the extent that you were able to model that here on earth, by not eating, by starving yourself, you could achieve this life of the angels here on earth or as close to it as you could possibly get. So, for reasons like this fasting took on a life of its own and it just grew.

Most people probably heard of the Desert Fathers and Desert Mothers, these monks in antiquity who would go out into the desert and do all these kinds of ascetic feats. One of their ascetic feats was to fast for days or weeks or months. And so, fasting kind of gained a momentum of its own. Remember how I said before that in Hinduism, there were eventually as many as 140 days or something like that of fasting on Hindu calendars. On Christian calendars, it expanded so much that by the Middle Ages and Renaissance, some places in Europe had 220 or 240 days of fasting throughout the year. I mean, it was just overwhelming how it grew to this proportion. So, Lent grew from that just same general expansion. It had eventually been Easter. Easter originally was the holiest day of the Christian calendar. It was also the saddest. It was occasioned for mourning because Christ had been killed, he'd come down to save us, and then there was the joyous resurrection. It ended kind of joyfully, but it was a very mournful period. 

The Church Fathers found that if you wanted to emphasize to people just how mournful they should be, how sober and how contemplative that they should be, you should make them fast. So, Easter got preceded by depending upon where this was enacted a day, maybe two days, eventually maybe three or four days or a week of fasting, which eventually, over time because again, same thing as what we were talking about with the Hindus and the Jains of a little fasting makes you holy, a lot of fasting makes you holier. It eventually grew to this 40-day famine before Easter and it was honored in different ways. 

Some people just sort of famously, as we know today, they just give up one thing. I should say more commonly among the more devout, it was a partial day of fasting each day. So, you might fast until 03:00 PM in the afternoon, have a light meal, maybe a dinner, and then you do it all over again the next day. It wasn't 40 days without food for most people. So that's how Lent grew. It was the way that fasting tended to grow throughout the more primitive parts of human history, which is just this simple idea of, well, gosh, maybe more fasting is even better for us. 

Melanie Avalon: Those fasting days, like you mentioned in Lent, were those the type of fasting days like in Hinduism, when they would have all those days on the calendar? Would they complete fasts or were they just eating lightly? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so for most of those, when I say 220 or 240 days on some of these medieval European calendars, most people observe those by eating lightly. Some people would just observe them by giving up desserts or maybe they would give up meat. So, it was a partial fast for most people. For the most devout people who really honored it, they tended to give up all food until mid-afternoon and then they tended to eat lightly for the rest of the day. One would assume they gorged the next non-fasting day that they had in order to make up the calories, because otherwise they would have been in quite a caloric deficit. But that seems to be what happened. 

Melanie Avalon: Little ADF action going on. 

Steve Hendricks: Right, something like that. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I think when people think back through the history of Christianity, they think of the moment of challenging all of this dogma and doctrines would be with Martin Luther and the Reformation. So, did that affect fasting in any way? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, absolutely it did. It probably wasn't as big a deal with Martin Luther as people thought when he nailed his-- well, he probably didn't, another myth of history. Yeah, he didn't nail his thesis to the door of the church, but when he published his thesis, he was upset about fasting. At that time, what had happened was at the same time that there was this one poll of fasting, which was this crazy, over the top, extreme fasting that led to the fasting saints and some of the stuff we've talked about. There was also this other poll in which ordinary people were trying desperately to get out of fasting any way they could because they hated it. So, particularly if it's on the calendar a couple of hundred days a year. 

The church had eventually gotten around to letting the rich buy their way out of fasting by making donations to the church. These were called dispensations and you could buy a dispensation to let you drink milk or eat butter or something during your days when you were supposed to be fasting. There's even one of the Cathedrals in France in Normandy has a Butter Tower. It's called the Butter Tower because this gorgeous Gothic tower was built on the money from the dispensations for laypeople to eat butter during Lent and other fasting days. So, Martin Luther didn't like all that, but he didn't make a huge deal out of it right there and then in his original protests. But he eventually became much more vocal as he was criticizing the pope in Rome and other members of the hierarchy of the church. He eventually went after them for these dispensations. 

Not only were they unfair to people who couldn't afford them, but who were these humans in Rome to be selling off something that was supposedly God's right to tell us to do or not to do? And so, from there in the Reformation, fasting played a pretty large role in getting people to revolt against the church, because fasting was something that was hated. The church was corrupt, it had tons of money, and rich people could get out of it. So, you had a lot of very ordinary people who were very primed by fasting to revolt against the church, which eventually led to the establishment of all these Protestant churches in countries across Europe. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, one of themes I found so interesting is the backlash and the responses surrounding fasting and especially politically or even with the government and things like that. And so, in the US, there were quite a few interesting people. I was wondering if we could talk about Bernarr Macfadden. I was so fascinated by him and what he did and this idea of the cult of the Body Beautiful and everything that happened with him. So, how does he relate to the fasting world? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. Bernarr Macfadden stumbles onto the scene about 20 years after Henry Tanner's fast in 1880. Macfadden was perhaps one of the greatest showmen in America. And I don't mean that literally. Well, he did do some shows on stage, but I mean just sort of as a carnival like media figure. He came along and in 1899 established a journal called Physical Culture, which by the time it was done with its first year, had 100,000 subscribers, which made it one of the biggest subscribed journals in the country and would just keep growing and growing. I think the number between the two world wars was that it sold 50 million copies. What Physical Culture was, was this Body Beautiful magazine. It showed people who exercise, exercise wasn't huge back then and lifted weights, which was even less huge, and he would show them what they could make of their own bodies and that was its power. 

It was like everyone has the power to be as beautiful and handsome as these models, who, not incidentally, he showed wearing next to nothing, sometimes wearing absolutely nothing. With the genitals artfully concealed behind a literal fig leaf or something. And so, he gained this enormous enormous following. He created one publication after another. It was kind of the beginning of this confessional, first person, lurid stories that played fast and loose with the truth form of so-called journalism. Some of his other publications were like, True Detective, True Romance and stuff. Supposedly the stories were true, but of course they weren't. At the height of his powers, with all of his journals and he owned a newspaper or two. He had a circulation of 200 million copies a year in a country that didn't have anywhere near the number of people who we have today, of course. 

He made all kinds of fantastic health claims. Like he had a way of regrowing bald heads, regrowing the hair on the heads. He had a way of one of the most famous was a thing that he called the penis scope, which was this, like, glass tube and a vacuum pump. It was supposed to give these middle-aged men with erectile dysfunctions like firmer erections. I mean, just crazy, quackery, nonsense stuff. But in the midst of all this, he also put out some really useful information about fasting, because he had discovered fasting when he was a child, probably had heard about Tanner's fasts and so on. But he had noticed, working on a farm that farm animals, when they got sick, stopped eating. So, one time when he got pneumonia, he tried it and believed that it had helped him. He did all of these very important things, but very poorly respected things because of who he was to promote fasting. 

He wrote books and there were articles in his magazines about fasting and he supported various fasting doctors and so on. It didn't take because he was such a quack on so many other things that the medical establishment absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, and he just blasted them left, right, and center in his publications. But it had so very little effect. What he did do, however, was to carry forward and not just carry forward, but expand on Henry Tanner's bringing of fasting into the public consciousness because what Macfadden did was he actually showed-- I'm not talking in any scientific way, but he would report cases of people who claimed to have been cured of their diseases by fasting. People who had skin diseases, headache, constipation, kidney diseases, on and on and on. It's a very long list. This sparked the curiosity of a very small number of doctors and scientists and sort of more judicious reporters than he was, who took fasting to the next step. But he's an enormously important transition figure. 

Melanie Avalon: So, fascinating, it just makes you realize you just don't know what's going to have an effect. I'm blown away. You said 200 million copies a year. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: And today, there's only like 300 million, I think, citizens. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, we've got, I don't know, 330 and 340 million people here. So, yeah, these were-- one person might be getting five of his journals. It's not like it was going to 200 million people. That figure was in 1929 right before the Great Depression struck. He went downhill from there. But even as late as oh, I forget what the year was, early 1950s, let's say. There was this famous show, TV show, where you had to guess a famous person based on just a sentence that they read or something like that. I'm forgetting what the name of it was. It was really catchy, but anyway, 30 years after his peak, 20 years at least, he could appear on this TV show without his face showing, just his voice reading one line or whatever it was, and people could guess who he was. He had that much influence over the culture. 

Melanie Avalon: And he started his own religion. 

Steve Hendricks: He did. [laughs] He started it, had to be one of the shortest-lived religions in history. He started something called Cosmotarianism and Cosmotarianism was just a blend of Macfadden health doctrine and kind of some parts he had stolen from Christianity. It must have lasted six months or something. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of Cosmo, I learned about, I guess Cosmopolitan magazine used to be different than it is today. 

Steve Hendricks: Indeed, it was a serious journal that talked about, I don't know, gosh, the economy or the state of the French Army or what have you. It was not a sex tips and blemish free skin kind of journal. 

Melanie Avalon: There's another theme there that I think we see today, not specifically fasting, but even today, you just don't know what's going to take off, what's going to become popular, even with people who might have celebrity attached to them. You don't know if what they promote will be successful. So, I was super interested to learn that, like, Upton Sinclair, for example, who most people have heard of and are familiar with, that he wrote about fasting. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. He was really the next, I think, most important person after Macfadden. Upton Sinclair is the famous muckraking journalist, who when he was in his late 20s, wrote a book called The Jungle and was about the atrocious treatment of workers in Chicago meat packing plants and also about the completely unsanitary conditions there. But he had a much lesser known side to him and that was that he wrote a book called The Fasting Cure, which grew out of a couple of long articles that he had written for Cosmopolitan magazine back in 1910 and 1911. What Sinclair had a story about, like, a lot of people who come to fasting, which is, “I had all these illnesses. I couldn't shake them. I went to doctor after doctor after doctor.” I mean, he spent gosh, I think, translated into today's money something like $500,000 on doctors and sanitariums and retreats and so on, trying to cure himself of what sounds like a really unshakable fatigue, constantly upset stomach, headaches that would strike him out of nowhere and no one had any cure. 

Then he stumbles on some of this crazy stuff from Bernarr Macfadden and he tries fasting. To make a long story short, it cures him. All of his ailments go away. He is able to write more prolifically than ever, and he says, “Well, I got to tell the world about this. I've got a platform, so let's get the news out.” What he did that was very, very useful. In addition to writing these two articles for Cosmopolitan, he also put out a survey. I think it was at the end of one article and said, “Hey, if you have fasted, if you're reading this, would you please write and tell me whether you had a good response, bad response. Tell me if you were fasting to cure something. Did you cure whatever it was?” So, he did the first really sort of systemic attempt, and he's a layperson. He's not a scientist. He's publishing in something that ordinary people need to be able to read or his publisher will not sell it. 

As good as a layperson could do a very good job of assembling a whole bunch of case studies of people who said, “Yeah, I had a stomach ulcer, I fasted for 35 days, it went away, or, yeah, I had thus and such wrong with my liver or thus and such had a carbuncle on my toe. After a fast of 20 days, it went away.” What he was doing was he was saying, “Look, you don't have to take my word for it.” He provided the names and addresses of these or at least the cities that they lived in, which back then was good enough. He would provide information about these people and just say, “I just want men of science.” They were almost all men back then, of course. “I just want men of science to look at this seriously. It surely cannot be that we have all this evidence of all these people, more than 100, 90% of them, who said they got better when they fasted. It surely cannot be that we have all this evidence and scientists will not take a look at it, particularly because at that time medicine could not cure most diseases. It was really still a very impotent form of medicine back then. But of course, as you might have guessed, that did not happen. Scientists generally looked away. Most men of medicine looked away. 

Melanie Avalon: That's something I found so interesting. You talked about how when they really first started studying fasting for longevity, and it was a lot in rodent studies, I think, probably in the 1980s, but I think you made a comment about how there was all this really fascinating research on longevity and telomeres and shrinking organs and nuclei and stuff, but it took so long for people to apply that to humans, like to do human studies. Why do you think that is? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, again, it just goes back to how counterintuitive fasting is. It is just very hard for people to accept that not eating can make you stronger, that it can heal you. If we have it our sort of textbook ideal version of what a scientist or doctor is, as someone who's entirely dispassionate and doesn't have any biases and can look at things completely fresh every time, “That's not what's going on.” Doctors bring their biases. Scientists bring their biases just like the rest of us. Boy, I mean, I'm telling you, it's still a hard sell today, trying to convince doctors about this. In 1950, oh, my gosh even harder. 

To the point where I tell the story of this one study that this pair of scientists, this odd couple of scientists at the University of Chicago does about that time. It's somewhere in the ballpark of 1950. I don't remember the exact year. They find that when they fast rodents, they live vastly longer and they almost completely eliminate, I believe it was breast cancer was the one that they were looking at in these rodents. They had various groups of rodents and I'm saying rodents because I don't remember off the top of my head whether it's mice or rats, but they had various groups.

One, they fasted every other day. The other group, they fasted every second day. Another group, they fasted every third day. Then there was a control group that ate normally. Well, the one that did the best was the one that fasted the most. All right, but it turns out that those mice ended up being much smaller. They didn't grow to full size. Now, we now have the science to know that's because our growth hormones and our growth mechanisms are intricately involved in our longevity markers. You can grow more slowly and be smaller and live longer, or you can grow fully and eat as much as you want and stimulate your growth hormones and not live as long seems to be the message. But they didn't know that then. So, what did they see? They saw, “Well, hey, look, fasting seems to be able-- well, it certainly makes these guys live longer, almost practically eliminates one of the most dreaded forms of cancer.” 

But guess what? There's a problem here. They don't grow to full size. And they could not reconcile that. They could not recommend to people, “Hey, we might have a cure for cancer here or something close to it, but you're not going to be as huge and big and vigorous and so on as you might be.” So, they played down their own finding and played up one of the other lesser fasting groups who fasted less often and got fewer benefits and so on, because you wouldn't be hale and hearty and strapping if you've-- and I'm like, I shoot, I would trade two inches for 20 years of life. [laughs] It's not even a question for me, but it's a very, very difficult thing for people to accept. Again, just another aspect of it being so very counterintuitive. 

Melanie Avalon: It's also similar to this idea about the assumptions that they make on the findings and what people would want or willing or not willing to do. You talk about the role of advances in epilepsy and the keto diet and fasting, and then this recurring theme where basically, I'm going to say they say but they say that it's too hard to fast to address epilepsy. So, it's not even presented as an option to patients or to parents who have kids who are epileptic. They aren't even exposed to this thing that could possibly really help their children because it's just assumed it would be too difficult, which is very, I don't know. It's frustrating. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. You can understand where it stems from. I mean, you have doctors who have a very short amount of time with each patient, and they're supposed to tell them what exactly in their eight minutes of contact with the patient, “Hey, guess what? Your diet is terrible, so you need to completely overhaul your entire diet if you want to live longer.” The few times that they try to do that or you've got eight minutes with a smoker and you're trying to tell them how to quit smoking. That smoker has 25 years of smoking behind her, and she is not going to hear what you have to say in eight minutes. So, they get this impression that's not completely undeserved of. Look, when we give some kind of advice, not all advice, but when we give some advice, it is very hard to get people to follow it. 

It's hard enough when it's like, you could try eating less processed food or you could try stopping smoking, which everyone agrees with. Gosh, if you're telling them something crazy like, “Hey, how about fasting?” [laughs] What are the odds that they're going to be able to adopt it? I think it is true that if you only have a few minutes with a patient, the odds are very, very slim. However, that's the problem of the medical model. It's not a problem with fasting and it's not a problem with patients because there are a lot of patients who, if you said in those seven minutes or whatever, “Hey, I think you should really try fasting, I don't have time to go into it all with you. Here's what I can tell you in five minutes, and here are some books and websites and so on that you can go and look at, podcasts you can listen to,” and that might actually have some kind of effect, but most doctors aren't thinking that way. They're thinking very, very short term.

Melanie Avalon: Something I wish we could do. There's an issue surrounding it because I don't know if it requires deception, maybe it doesn't. I wish there could be a system where there could be a pill that's a placebo pill and it's a fasting pill. And the directions for taking it is you take this pill, but you can't eat a certain amount of time before or after. So then, you can give them the pill, but really you're just forcing them into a fast. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's great. You have hit upon exactly what some of the United States is anyway, earliest fasting doctors came up with in the early 19th century. One of the doctors I write about, Isaac Jennings, who was this doctor in Connecticut, noticed that people seemed to get better when they stopped eating and noticed that they did better than with the so-called medicines that he was giving them, which were just almost completely useless. So, he did that. He tried an experiment where he created bread pills. He just made pills himself out of flour and water, colored them to make them look like the pills that you would buy from the apothecary and so on, gave them to people and said, your instruction is to take this pill, drink nothing but water, and I'll see you in three days. The results were convincing enough to him that he simply stopped prescribing medicines about 98% of the time and simply prescribed these placebos and then eventually felt bad about it and told his patients about it. He thought for sure that they would run him out of town. So, he had set up. 

Melanie Avalon: But they did it, right? 

Steve Hendricks: No, they didn't. They took it really well and he stayed there in Connecticut for another several years and then eventually went off and practiced in Ohio. But, yeah, it seemed to have worked. 

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about Valter Longo and his approach to fasting and his choice to go the fasting mimicking diet route? I think a lot of it probably involves a lot of these reasons and forces at play as to what you can actually do and get funding for and prescribe to people and make actionable. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. So, I think, Valter Longo, who's a professor scientist at the University of Southern California, I think he's fantastic. He has done some outstanding work. I do have some criticisms which I mentioned in the book, but I understand why he's gone the way he's gone. His big breakthrough, he's had a lot of big breakthroughs. There are people who are pushing him for a Nobel Prize, and he would certainly have my vote if I were on the committee. But one of his big breakthroughs was in fasting for cancer treatment, and he had this terrible experience. What he basically found is that fasting can weaken cancer cells and it can protect healthy cells. So, it weakens the cancer by starving it out of its preferred fuel glucose and shutting down the growth factors that cancer hijacks to spread and divide and increasing the immune cell activity of these cells that go around and zap our cancer cells. 

Meanwhile, the healthy cells bunker down. They go into a protect and repair mode. So, when you give chemo or radiation and you fast people during that, the healthy cells either ignore it or if they get dinged up a little bit, they're great at making repairs. So, in human trials, he found that people had less nausea, less vomiting, less headache, less fatigue if they fasted during their chemotherapy. We know that's for sure in humans and then in mice what he has seen is that the cancer cells that are weakened, more of them are killed by the chemo or the radiation, so more of it dies. And because the healthy cells are protected, you can ratchet up the chemo and the radiation, you can kill more of the cancer. There are human trials going on now to see if that part of killing more cancer is also true in humans. We know that the protecting you from chemo side effects is true in humans. Okay, so I go into all that to say that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. [laughs] 

Steve Hendricks: He has found a way to make chemotherapy less miserable and to make it more potent. So, he takes his findings, which at that point had been in mice, to oncologists at these various hospitals that participate in research studies all over the country and says, “Hey, would you enroll your patients in my fasting trial? Here's what I got. It seems extremely promising,” and it should have taken them about two years to get all the people do the trial, get the data written up and all that. It took them like, five years, and the main reason was because oncologists said no. Many of them just wouldn't take calls from his lab because they thought this was just sheer quackery. They didn't want their patients fasting because patients lose weight on chemotherapy, and so they were afraid that they were going to get too skinny. 

Okay, that makes total sense. What Longo told them was, like, “Look, in my mice and in these human anecdotes that we have, people actually don't lose much weight because they're not as nauseated from the chemo. But even the ones who lose weight, they gain it right back in two or three days when they refeed. This is not a problem.” But oncologists could not hear it, and so Longo decides, “Ah, crap, fasting is just a dead end. I'm not going to spend my whole career beating my head against the wall. I'm going to instead try to see if we can come up with a diet that mimics fasting.” I'm sure you've discussed this on your podcast more than once, but so his fasting-mimicking diet, he actually came up with two.

One for kind of more healthy people to use and one for chemo patients to use. Oncologists have, in fact, proven much more willing to use that. And for that matter, for the healthier people who don't have cancer, but maybe they have prediabetes or high blood pressure or whatever, other doctors have been very excited to do that. They say, “Oh, so we can give our patient a little bit of food and still get most of the benefits of fasting.” Probably not all of them, but most of the benefits, great. So, that's really good. I think that's fantastic. 

Here's the problem. My problem is that in a world where science wasn't controlled by what you can sell and instead was controlled by what's best for the patient, we would have trials that put the fasting-mimicking diet head-to-head against water-only fasting. And we would see which one does best and then people could have a choice. Look, not everyone wants to fast, even when threatened with death from cancer. But if you knew let's just speculate here that if you did the fasting-mimicking diet during your chemo for your cancer, your odds of survival jumped from 3 years to 15 years. If you did water only fasting, they jumped from 3 years to 25 years. Well, you could make an educated choice about what you wanted to do. 

Unfortunately, no one's going to pay for a randomized controlled trial to compare fasting with a fasting-mimicking diet, because you just can't make much money off of fasting. Fasting-mimicking diet is something you can sell. They go for about 200 bucks or so for a five-day package. It's not like a ton of money, but that's money that people, investors can invest in and so, we're getting trials on the fasting-mimicking diet, which are great, but they're not being compared for the most part maybe at all, to fasting, which I think is a real shame. 

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I would hypothesize if they suspected that the fasting-mimicking diet would outperform fasting, that they might.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. What is their incentive to prove that there might be something better out there than the FMD, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Have you done ProLon?

Steve Hendricks: I have not. I've been curious about it, but I have never done it. 

Melanie Avalon: I ordered it. I was going to do it. It was a no go for me. When I'm just doing water fasting, like, not eating, I'm good, but having to eat like a tiny small amount of food, it just makes me ravenous. I think I tried like one day I was like, “no.” 

Steve Hendricks: [laughs] Yeah. People tell me that you get used to it, but yeah, I have wondered the same thing as to what it does for your hunger. Doesn't seem likely to be great. On the other hand, it's only four or five days. 

Melanie Avalon: Have you watched, was it Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop Lab on Netflix? 

Steve Hendricks: I have not watched it. 

Melanie Avalon: She has an episode. One episode is with Dr. Valter Longo and she does ProLon. And then one episode-- was it the same episode? I think she also interviews Dr. Alan Goldhamer, I think. So, fasting clinics today, what was your experience at TrueNorth Health Center like? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so TrueNorth in Santa Rosa, California, which is about an hour North of San Francisco, is America's oldest and largest fasting clinic. There are only like three in the entire country. The other two are just kind of sole practitioners or in one case a husband-and-wife team who see a handful of patients a year. At TrueNorth, they've got 70 rooms, they're seeing 1500 people. Inpatient who are coming there to fast or to eat a vastly reduced diet all year long. They have an enormous amount of experience. I will say, as positive and glowing things about Alan Goldhamer as I said about Valter Longo. He has been a pioneer. He, for the longest time, was the only place you could fast under medical supervision in the United States. He kept fasting alive in this country at a time when it probably should have died, but for his persistence. 

Best of all is that unlike previous fasting doctors, Herbert Shelton, who did an awful lot of good, a fasting doctor of the 20th century, the most prominent American fasting doctor until Goldhamer. Shelton was not very scientific and didn't have much interest in having anything to do with science because researchers had so strongly rejected everything that he practiced and preached. So, what Alan Goldhamer said, however, was very early on in his career, he's been fasting people since 1984, I think he's 62 or 63 now. He said, “Look, if fasting is ever to achieve widespread acceptance, we have to put it on a scientific basis.” 

And so, from very early on, he was collecting data from his patients about how they improved on fasting. He eventually, probably about 15 years ago or so, founded a foundation to undertake research on fasting. What he'll tell you is if you go to TrueNorth, he'll say this looks like a fasting clinic. But in fact, what we are is a research center disguised as a fasting clinic. He keeps the rates there extremely low so that he can get people who will come and fast long enough to get well. He has, for the last 20 years been publishing little by little, little more each year, these scientific studies that document and validate some of the reversals of disease that he and his staff have achieved through fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't he have the largest documented drop in blood pressure? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's truly the-- if you want both a very heartening and very sad snapshot of fasting and science today, it's that. So, yeah, his first study was one that he co-wrote with T. Colin Campbell, who is the author of The China Study, a very respected Cornell nutritional biochemist. What they found in Goldhamer's data-- So, what they did was they took, I believe it was 174 consecutive patients. There was no cherry picking. Every patient who walked in the door at TrueNorth who had high blood pressure and fasted was enrolled in this study. What they found was every single one of those people on high blood pressure, their blood pressure dropped remarkably. All of them were able to go off their high blood pressure medication if they were on it. And those who had the worst high blood pressure did the best. Those in stage 3 hypertension had a drop of 60 points in their systolic pressure. That's the top number 60 overall.

Among all their patients with high blood pressure, the average drop was 37/13 points, which, as you say, is the largest drop ever reported for any therapy in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. Anti-hypertension pill doctors are happy, you get a 10-point drop. These drops of, on average, 37 points, that's just completely off the charts. The need for this is dire because we have gosh, what is it. I think it's 500,000 Americans every year are going to die of at least high blood pressure being one of the contributing causes to their death, and sometimes the cause outright. Half of all Americans get high blood pressure. American adults, and I think it's like three quarters of us by the time we're in our 70s. 

The American Heart Association says still to this day that there's no cure. Yet we have studies going back more than 20 years showing that, in fact, you can completely reverse high blood pressure. One of the great contributions of Alan Goldhamer was-- so scientists have known casually for about the last, oh, I don't know, 80 or 90, maybe 100 years that you could reverse high blood pressure when you fast. However, when people go back to eating, their high blood pressure always went back up. So, it was kind of thought of as a party trick or something. But what Goldhamer did was-- what a bunch of other fasting doctors did, which was just to ask the simple question, “Well, if the disease goes away when we take the food away, was there maybe something in the food that was contributing to the disease?” Like so many other doctors, fasting doctors throughout history, he read the science and experimented with what kept his patients' diseases away. 

He settled on a practically unprocessed, certainly minimally processed vegan diet. It's so unprocessed, he doesn't even use added oil, salt, or sugar. But by doing this, he did something that no previous doctor had ever achieved, which was keeping his patient's high blood pressure away when they went back to eating. So, we have what seems to be a cure for high blood pressure. There have been multiple follow-up studies that Goldhamer has done. The most recent one was done with a researcher at the Mayo Clinic and it was published in a fairly well recognized and prestigious journal. The catch is these studies are not randomized controlled trials. Now, you could conduct a randomized controlled trial, I don't think you'd find anything different. I think you'd find the exact same thing. There's almost nothing in these studies that suggests that these are anything other than legitimate findings, but you can't be 100% certain with something like this unless you do an RCT. 

The problem is those are extremely expensive to conduct. And so, TrueNorth hasn't conducted any randomized controlled trials because they can't afford them. The government's not giving money to people like TrueNorth to do fasting research. Of course, who else is funding it? Big Pharma, big medical device companies, so on. They're not putting forward any money for fasting because they can't make any money off it. So, sadly, although this cure possible, probable I would say cure is out there and known in the scientific literature, it's been almost universally ignored.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy because not only is it ignored and there's all these forces keeping it from being studied and happening, on top of that, you talk about the issues he's encountered, which people trying to shut him down and the authorities, and that happened a lot historically with a lot of these different people. So, it's just very interesting. How was your experience? How long did you go there for? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, my wife and I, in I believe it was June of 2021, we went there for two weeks. So, when you fast at a fasting clinic, they typically will fast you for however many number of days, and then you need to stay there while you re-feed because your re-feeding needs to be carefully calibrated and supervised. You stay there half the number of days you fasted. I think we fasted nine and a half days and re-fed for four and a half days. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Speaking of that, I love how you hacked the German clinic situation by-- didn't you fast before so that you could get a longer fast there? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I went there in part because I was having some health struggles that I hoped to correct. What almost all fasting doctors have found for the last, let's say, 200 years, is that longer fasts tend to better than a series of shorter fasts. However, if you don't have the time or you don't have the money, because some of these places can be quite expensive, they say, well, the next best thing would be to do a shorter fast. So, actually, before both of those, before I went to TrueNorth and before I went to the Buchinger Wilhelmi Clinic in Germany, fasted for I think it was maybe five days or so on my own water only, and then re-fed for a week or something, and then went to the clinic and fasted there for 9 or 10 days. 

Melanie Avalon: Just speaking of listeners are going to have to get your book and hear your experience, particularly at that German clinic and like with the enemas and colonics and things like that. It's really funny. It's really funny. You tell the story really well, your experience there. So, wow. Well, this has been so amazing for listeners. We only barely touched on everything that is in this book. There's so much more. I will just direct them to the book. Things like we didn't even talk about circadian rhythm and a lot of the studies today and things like that. So, listeners definitely have to check it out. The artwork on the book, why did you choose the leaf? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I didn't choose it, but I did approve it. It was something that the graphic designer came up with. But the reason that it was chosen and the reason that I like it is it's symbolic of fasting. It's a leaf for people who haven't seen the cover. It's a leaf that has, a fall leaf. It's changing colors. So, you have in this fasting, some symbolic kind of almost like dying, where we're not eating, we're not getting nourishment, our body is bunkering down in a way that's not part of our normal go getter active kind of life. But from this comes a rebirth. We don't have the whole tree here and we're not seeing that eventually it's going to grow new leaves having shed this old leaf. But I think that's why the artist chose it and certainly why I like it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it. I knew there was something behind it. It's a beautiful book, by the way. I have it right here in front of me. 

Steve Hendricks: I think they did a very nice job with the design. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's amazing and very substantial [laughs] as listeners have not figured that up by now. So, maybe one last question about everything. This book and this work was the history of fasting up until now. What do you think the future of fasting will look like? 

Steve Hendricks: That's a really good question and I'm not sure. One of the biggest discoveries to me-- I got really deeply interested in fasting. I mentioned coming to fasting to lose weight and so on, but I've stuck with fasting and I'm most interested in it because of its ability to heal, its ability to reverse diseases that we do have and prevent diseases that we don't yet have. What I have found in the couple of months since the book has been out and talking with people is most people just aren't interested in that, which really surprises me. Most people are either-- the two biggest reasons I get are one, I want to lose weight, which is great. Nothing wrong if you have excess weight. You will be healthier and less disease prone if you do not have excess weight. We know that. 

But on the other hand, and the other thing that people tell me is I want to fast in order to be kind of more efficient. I want to be able to be, whatever, a better CEO or a better capitalist in some way so I can go out and crush my opposition or something. But fasting can make you more efficient, it can make the mind in some cases work better and so on. It's not to diminish either of those reasons terribly. But when I try to tell people, are you interested in maybe not getting cancer or something. The interest level drops quite a bit. Going into all this, because I sort of assumed because where the research is going is for this longer-term health. The research is heading in the direction of more disease prevention and more disease reversal. That is, I think, almost certainly where the science is going. It's looking at how can we use fasting to stay healthier, not just lose weight or be mentally tougher or whatever it is. 

However, that's not where I at least so far, I'm finding that a lot of the public are and I'm talking about people who are interested in fasting and are perhaps fasting themselves. This junction between where the science is and where the sort of public mood is, it will be curious to see how that plays out. I kind of hope that the science-- well, I definitely hope that the science sort of pulls more people along and more people learn that, like, “Look, fasting is a long-term health-giving thing and can add years to our life if we do it right.” But whether that will happen, who knows? 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, it kind of speaks to human nature, I think, as humans we focus on what we can experience now. That would be lose the weight, feel the productivity, but we're not so good at looking at the long-term benefits. 

Steve Hendricks: Absolutely. We are very short-term thinkers, it would seem. But what surprised me is, as I say, I got into it for the losing weight thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's fantastic if you have some extra weight you want to shed and so on. What surprises me is that once you're in it for that then trying to say, “Hey, so now that you've done it and seen that it's doable doing this somewhat periodically, whether daily intermittent fasting or whether prolonged multi-day fasting, it could help you.” Yeah, I've yet to see an overwhelming interest in that. Maybe my book will be a small nudge for some people in that direction. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, longevity science is what I'm obsessed with. I would say I do fasting for the longevity benefits primarily, but it even for me comes back to now. I think I do it now because I want to feel younger now. I think it makes me-- the focus is always on the present, I think. So, yeah, it's really interesting. So how do you practice fasting now? Do you do it daily? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so they're basically speaking two types of fasting. There's the prolonged multi-day fasting, which is mostly what we've talked about, and I do a fast of about one week twice a year. But I think the most important one is actually the daily fasting. And I do, do that. It was not something that I did before doing the research on this book, but I became extremely interested in it. We're probably running out of time here, but I'll just tease your listeners with the surprising thing that the research has found is about daily fasting. I mean, just in the last like three, four years, this is really new stuff. 

One piece of it is not news at all. It's that if we eat in a shorter window each day and we fast for longer each night, we increase the amount of repairs. A lot of people know this. That's why you have these 16:8 eating patterns and so on, where you're eating in an 8-hour window and you're fasting for 16 hours a night or whatever, that's great. What a lot of people don't know is they tend to usually do that by skipping breakfast and then they put all their food in the afternoon and the evening. It turns out that our circadian rhythms have just hardwired us and there is virtually nothing, it seems that we can do to change this. 

We process nutrients far better and we end up being far healthier if our window is in the morning, if our eating window starts an hour or two after we wake up. For a lot of people, where the science is pointed is it seems like the healthiest eating window out there is probably from, let's say 08:00 AM or so to 02:00 PM. And the thing that I always hasten to add after that because that completely freaks people out. I mean, I hated hearing it. I was a late-night eater. I was a breakfast skipper before working on this book. I just thought this was the worst news in the world that I had come across. I've actually found that it's just really not at all difficult for me to do. I have more energy. I would not go back to eating the way that I did before. Now that I'm eating one of these sorts of 8 to 2, 9 to 3 eating windows every day.

But there is a compromise for people who still want to eat dinner. It seems the science seems to be pointing to the fact that if you put most of your calories in the day in that early window, so that means a bigger breakfast, bigger lunch, and then keep dinner light and early, you can probably get most of the same benefits as someone who's eating just entirely within that window. So, it turns out that the adage that was coined in the last century to eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper actually turns out to be pretty good advice. There's a whole chapter on how the science came to this and hopefully I've presented it in a convincing way because I think it's very good science. It's very convincing, it is extremely counterintuitive, but that could be contributing to a lot of our bad health. The fact that so many of us are eating late and eating big late. 

Melanie Avalon: I was really excited to read that chapter, especially because I am haunted by this question. Well, first of all, just my own biases. I gravitate towards eating late at night as like a person, historically, I always have been. I get so many questions from listeners all the time about this, about early versus late eating. And so, a few months ago, it was longer than that. I was like, I'm going to try to just read everything I can read and be as unbiased as I can and see what I think it shows about early versus late night eating. I thought it was going to be hands down. Early eating was the way to go. What I felt looking at everything and I mean, we could talk about this for hours and there're so many studies, but I felt like from what I saw that probably late afternoon to early evening might be the most beneficial window just hormonally if looking at the hormonal profiles. 

But some of my concerns or my things I'm curious about is the role of bias in breakfast eating studies and then the healthy user bias that we've been told for so long that eating breakfast is healthy. It's hard to separate that. So, the people who eat breakfast are probably more often doing healthy lifestyle habits. And then a third piece was the lack-- I wish there were more studies directly comparing because there aren't many. I tried to find as many as I could, but there aren't that many that directly compare an early window to an evening window, both completely fasted and a short window. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I agree with you. There's definitely a shortage of studies out there. And you're right, breakfast skippers, I was a breakfast skipper for 50 years, [laughs] lumping myself in this category, but breakfast skippers tend to be less healthy. I mean, I'm not talking necessarily about people like you and me, Melanie, but I'm talking about alcoholics will skip breakfast because they're sleeping through breakfast. Smokers will skip breakfast because the cigarette suppresses their appetite. People who are overweight and obese and therefore less healthy, by definition are often skipping breakfast because they're trying to lose weight and some of them binge later in the day. And that's all to say. There are all these confounding factors that scientists try to control for, but there's no perfect study out there that controls for all those perfectly and ends up with the conclusion, yeah, breakfast skipping is unhealthy. 

But I try to present what I feel is the preponderance of the evidence that is saying basically breakfast skipping is unhealthy and with enough detail that the reader can make up her mind about that herself. The one thing that I would say is I don't know a single researcher who has looked at these early time restricted feeding windows. So, you're eating whatever from 08:00 AM to 02:00 PM, rather than eating from noon to 06:00 PM or 04:00 PM to 10:00 PM or whatever it is. I don't know a single person researching the field who wanted to find the answer, “Oh yeah, dinner is bad for you.” [laughs] So, the fact that they have consistently found this answer and there aren't like a thousand studies on here, we're talking a dozen or something, that they've consistently found this. You're right, there haven't been perfect head to heads on all of these, but I think the balance of the evidence has really shifted. 

If you go to my website, which is stevehendricks.org, there's a Frequently Asked Questions page, and I focus in that chapter on one really, really very well-done study by a researcher at the University of Alabama, Birmingham named Courtney Peterson. A question that I've gotten since then is, “Do you have anything other than just Peterson's studies? Are you just relying on her two, three studies that you talk about in the book?” At the time that I wrote about it, I didn't feel that there was a lot of fantastic science out there that was as good as hers that merited taking up the space. But on my website, on that Frequently Asked Question page, I discussed three or four other studies. Most of them have taken place in China. They seem to me, anyway, to be very well conducted and very well controlled. They do do some head-to-head stuff. 

If we have someone eating from, let's say, 07:00 AM to 03:00 PM or something and then we have another group of people eating from noon to 08:00 PM. Who does better? And they're tracking longevity biomarkers and they're tracking disease biomarkers, everything you would expect, cholesterol and blood sugar and things like that. It's just to me, anyway, it just reads really overwhelmingly in favor of these morning eating windows. But having said that, the science is still young. Who knows what we'll find? What does seem more and more clear, though, is when they compare to really late eating windows, like the one meal a day, just being dinner. You're eating from, let's say, 06:00 to 08:00 PM or something. Those really seem not to pan out on a great many of the longevity markers. You might look into some of those and see what you think. Shoot me an email, tell me if you agree or disagree. 

Melanie Avalon: Just some brief comments. One, I think you did a really excellent job of, like you said, laying out all these different studies and acknowledging when there are conflicting findings. It was a very, very valuable chapter, and I think everybody should read it. I know so, what I don't think that's ideal at all. I wish I wasn't like this. I do think, though, if it's between eating all day, if you are a late-night eater and you had to choose between eating all day or having a late-night window. 

I mean, I know you had the Matson study that compared like a 5 to 9 window to an all-day eating and didn't seem to find benefits. What I'm trying to say is I think finding the fasting window that you can stick to and do consistently might outweigh forcing yourself into a different eating window that is not as enjoyable or that you can't stick to as easily because it's not what you thrive on. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I think we don't have enough studies to say for sure, but I think what you're proposing there is entirely possible. It could be that, yeah, it's healthier to do a long fast each night but eat in the morning and early afternoon. But compared to eating all day, it may in fact be pretty healthy by comparison to do what you're talking about doing. So, that's entirely possible. I don't think we have enough research to prove it or disprove it. The one thing that I will say is, again, I was one of these people who I mean, my favorite countries in the world are like to visit are Spain and Italy. That's because they eat and drink till all hours of the night. That's my preferred lifestyle. I have always been a nighttime person. I did not want to make this change, but I thought I would make the experiment. 

I was just stunned in three days, all of a sudden, this 50-year-old habit of mine of eating dinner at night and eating well late into the night with bedtime snacks and so on, it just vanished. It just absolutely went away as though my body had been, as I say in the book, waiting for me to do this all along. It just felt so natural. The research shows if that is in fact something like what's going on, it's probably because I'm eating now more in sync with what my circadian rhythms are asking me to do. So, the one thing I would say is, try it for a week, see what you think. If you get a week where you can do it, try amending it, try playing with it. And you're right. Like, different people will come to different conclusions and they'll have different things that they feel comfortable with and different things that they can do with their work schedule and not do. But you might just experiment with shifting some of your calories earlier in the day, see what you think yourself. 

Melanie Avalon: I am all about self-experimentation finding what works for you. Before, when you're eating a dinner, were you doing intermittent fasting with that or were you just eating throughout the day and eating more at night.

Steve Hendricks: There was a period before I-- as I was starting research on this book, where I had shifted to this daily intermittent fasting and my eating window was exactly the one that I just criticized, which was I skipped breakfast. I would have my first meal around 11:00 AM or noon and try to have my last food by about 08:00 or so at night. I'd say the calories were about evenly divided between sort of lunchtime and dinnertime. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, got you. Yeah. So, well, listeners get the book, read it, read all the chapters, and I can't wait to hear what people think. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. We didn't even talk about you have a whole fascinating chapter on Russia and fasting for mental health and the effects on the brain and fascinating things people with psychiatric disorders have experienced historically with fasting. So, listeners will just have to get the book to read that. But what is something that you're grateful for? 

Steve Hendricks: Well, as we're recording this, Thanksgiving has just happened and more than anything else, I've been thinking over the Thanksgiving long weekend that I am grateful that I have had the opportunity to share this information with people. We didn't talk much about my own health struggles, but I really do credit some of the information that I found in this book with basically having saved my life. I'm in an awfully privileged, fortunate position that I'm able to write a book and share these ideas and hopefully help some other people the way that some of these ideas helped me. So, I'm most grateful at this moment for the opportunity to get to do that. 

Melanie Avalon: I cannot thank you enough for what you're doing because nobody has done this. I kept thinking so much when I was reading the book. I was like, I can't believe that I have been writing, thinking, talking about fasting for so long, and this is all just completely new information to me. My mind was being blown. I think you've done a huge service to humanity to compile all this information in a really wonderful read. I can't thank you enough. It's amazing. I look forward to your future book. Are you writing one now? 

Steve Hendricks: No, I'm busy with podcasts. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, all the interviews. [laughs] 

Steve Hendricks: Which is fantastic, I'm very happy to have them, but no, I've got some ideas floating around in my head, but nothing concrete. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I will eagerly look forward to your future work and hopefully we can connect again in the future. Again, thank you so much for everything that you're doing. Oh, yeah. How can people best follow your work? What links? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I'm not huge on social media. I am on Instagram. I think it's @stevehendricks99 is my handle. But best way to stay in touch is through my website, which is just stevehendricks.org. As I mentioned, the book is not a prescriptive book. It's not a how to about fasting, though you can certainly glean a lot of how to information from it. But I've gotten a zillion questions about how do I do this, how do I do that. My Frequently Asked Questions page probably has, I don't know, 10,000 words of answers to the most common questions I get. So, a lot of people have found that useful. If you want to get in touch, just shoot me an email. It's on my contact page. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much again for your time. I treasure it. I do not take it for granted. And again, thank you for everything that you're doing and hopefully we can talk again in the future. 

Steve Hendricks: Thanks, Melanie. It's been a great pleasure. 

Melanie Avalon: Thanks, Steve.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

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Apr 23

Episode 314: New Co-Host Announced!, Uneven Fat Loss, Inflammatory Fat Cells, Topical Fat Burners, Thermogenic Supplements, Undereating, Safe Olive Oil, Polyphenols, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


Welcome to Episode 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Avalonx Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers, Common Allergens, Heavy Metals,  Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BEAUTYCOUNTER GIVEAWAY: go to Apple Podcasts and Leave a review and/or your thoughts about the new co-host or update your previous review and then send a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com to enter to win!

20:20 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

23:20 - Listener Q&A: Ashely - Uneven Fat Loss

36:30 - Listener Q&A: Diane - Thermogenics

42:00 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

44:45 - Listener Q&A: Amy - What Should We Look For In Safe Olive Oils?

The Freshest, Most Flavorful Artisanal Olive Oil You'll Ever Taste

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free-organic, free-range chicken thighs for a year plus $20 off. Yes, that's right. I'm talking free-organic, free-range chicken thighs for an entire year and $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. 

They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that is raised crate free, and wild caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees, and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. So, they have quite a few options, including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. 

I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking, this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable and better for you and the planet all at home. Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken thighs for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. Yes, that's 3 pounds of bone and chicken thighs free in every box for a year, plus $20 off your first order when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream and then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. So, for listeners who did not listen last week or have not been getting the updates, haven't been in the Facebook group, this is Cynthia's last episode on the show. We talked about this at length at the end of the last episode. But for listeners who are just listening to this episode, I know we talked about it recently, but would you like to talk a little bit about what's happening in your life and your experience with the show and where you're going from here?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. So, in Episode 313 I announced that I was going to be stepping away from podcasting duties for Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and I thanked the community, the IF Podcast team behind the scenes, and Melanie and Gin for really creating a wonderfully enriching and warm and welcoming hello, when I started 10 months ago. My business is going in a different direction and so I hired a CIO. So, Chief Information Officer, and we've gotten laser focused on the next steps in my business. I just felt in a lot of different ways that my attention needed to be focused on those two or three things in my business, and that everything else I needed to kind of reprioritize. 

So, like I shared last week, Melanie and I are leaving on good terms. This is not a breakup. This is a pause. We will continue to be supportive of one another's platforms, agendas, podcasts. I say podcasts with plurals because we both have one of our own outside the context of IF Podcast. And so, really taking the opportunity to say thank you again and then super excited to know who's going to be stepping into the podcasting co-hosting duties, as this is someone that I'm quite fond of and I think will do a wonderful job. But I'll let Melanie share with you who that is. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, first of all, so just to respond to that, when I said this last week, I don't want to be redundant, but it's just been such an incredible adventure having Cynthia co-hosting this show. It was really exciting to see how the show really changed, like the dynamics of it as far as the content that we got to talk about. You just have such incredible medical expertise, when it comes to fasting and specifically women and hormones and all of the things. I know that it's just been such a valuable resource for people. So, I can't thank you enough for your time, for what you brought to the show, for our friendship. It's just been really, really wonderful. Like, you were saying how it's not a breakup. It kind of feels more like in school, there're different grades and different classes and different things in life, but those end just by necessity of that was the thing that you were learning and experiencing at that time. So, this has been like a really incredible chapter of the show that I am so, so grateful for. I know that Cynthia and I will be talking a lot in the future and hopefully seeing each other in person, which will be very exciting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that would be fun. 

Melanie Avalon: That'll be really exciting. I still haven't even seen Gin, actually, which is crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I've met Gin multiple times. Gin is great. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe someday we'll all be at something together. But I also want to say that I really, really support when you first told me about this. I completely understand and understood and I am all about, like, there's so much opportunity and potential and things to do in life. And I think in order to really have the best experience of your life and do everything that you want to do, you have to make those hard decisions about what to focus on and where the energy needs to be invested because I wish we had unlimited time and energy, but we don't. So, I'm all about putting your time and energy where it needs to be for you at your life at this moment. So, just want to say I'm completely supportive of everything that you're doing and we'll have to bring you back for a reunion episode. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that would be fun. For listeners, I know sometimes change seems scary and I remind everyone that change is a part of life, and it's like the ebb and flow of our lives and so it's wonderful to have had the opportunity to be connected to the podcast and now I can be laser focused in my business and kind of move things forward. As I shared, I've got a junior and essentially a rising senior and a rising sophomore, and they're only home for a couple more years. So, all my free time is really deliberate at this point and eventually I'll be an empty nester, which is kind of scary to imagine. I'm sure the doodles will be happy. My husband will probably be happy, but it'll be a big adjustment. So, thank you for everything and for the community that I've been a part of. 

Melanie Avalon: That will be one thing that will be weird. I feel like I know so much about your daily life and kids and everything, but now I'll have to keep up. I mean, we'll still be talking, but we won't be talking quite as regularly. So, I wish you all the best with the kids and the family and all the things. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Likewise. Likewise. We'll get to see, you know, you get a little bird's eye view into your friends lives on social media, but yeah, we'll have to carve out time to catch up on occasion. 

Melanie Avalon: Definitely, definitely, definitely. Especially if you have a future book or something that would be really exciting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: That is the goal. That is the goal, for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, the announcement about the new co-host, who I am so excited. What it's going to look like going forward? This will be the last episode with Cynthia. Next week, I'm actually, as a kind of like, what's the word, an intermission, [chuckles] I'm going to air a conversation that I had with Steve Hendricks, who wrote a book called The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. That book I've talked about it on this show before was mind blowing. I thought I knew a lot about fasting. You just learn so much, how fasting has appeared throughout the ages, throughout religions, throughout culture, and it's not what you think. [laughs] You'll have to listen to the A, read the book and or listen to the episode to find out. There're a lot of misconceptions we have about fasting as far as how it manifested in religions, how it was used, like Hippocrates and the Greeks and fasting and then a lot of drama. A lot of really crazy, controversial stuff with fasting. It's crazy.

Oh, this is something, Cynthia, that really stuck with me from that book. It's so interesting to think for the longest time we didn't realize what was fueling us during a fast. So, it didn't occur. I should find the actual date, but now it's just so obvious to us. Oh, you're burning your fat. That's why you lose weight. But for a long time and again, this is like relatively recently, there were all these theories about how people fasted, like where their energy was coming from. People thought that it was a spirit or a vibe or there was this one moment I should probably give more details, but basically they thought that the energy came from another person.

Oh, one group thought that it was from-- because women's menstruation would go away if they severely fasted. They thought it was like that was what they were fueling on while fasting. It's just really interesting to think that to us, it seems so obvious. Yeah, you're losing fat that's what it is. But that this was not a known fact for quite a while. It's kind of mind blowing to think about.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll have to check that book out. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so interesting. He talks about the role of-- this was really controversial on my Instagram. He talks about how fasting was used as a control mechanism for women with some religions. That is just I mean, it's just crazy stuff. So, in any case, sorry, I'm on the tangent. I'm going to air that episode with Steve because I think everybody will find it so interesting. So, that'll be the intermission. 

And then the new co-host is Vanessa Spina, and a lot of listeners are probably familiar with her. She is the best-selling author of a book called Keto Essentials. But she runs the Optimal Protein Podcast. Her brand is Ketogenic Girl. Her show, I think, used to be called-- did her show used to be called Ketogenic Girl podcast? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When did she rebrand? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Maybe in the last two years. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. So, she's just a beautiful spirit. I love her, I've been friends with her. I was on her show probably a year and a half ago or two years ago or so and that's when I first met her. And she's just incredible. She's very smart, very intelligent, very much into the role of protein like Cynthia and I are. So, there'll be that theme continuing, which is a good thing. She's very into the things that Cynthia and I would always talk about. She's also a Peter Attia fangirl, so that can continue. But she's just very smart. 

Her degree, well, she's a sport nutrition specialist. She completed a two-year biomedical science program at the University of Toronto because she has a love of biochemistry and physiology. And I just think she's going to bring a lot to the show. It's definitely going to be a different perspective. She's not a doctor or anything like that. I think one thing will be really nice is she's the first co-host that has-- well, again, so she has a young son. This will be the first time having a co-host with a young child. So, I'm just really, really excited. You guys are going to love Vanessa. 

Oh, she also created and you'll hear all of this when I actually have her on in her own story. But she created a tone device which measures breath acetone. It's a ketone breath analyzer like she made that, how cool. She also recently launched a red-light therapy line as well. So, again, fits in the family here and being an entrepreneur, creating her own products in the sphere. I can't wait for you guys to meet her. We are going to do a special incentive. This is similar to what we did with Cynthia. You guys responded really well to this, and I'm really excited to do it again, which is reviews of the show help so much more than most people realize.

So, we really want to make it welcoming for Vanessa. We are going to give away a prize. You guys know that I love Beautycounter, Cynthia loves Beautycounter as well, which is non-toxic skincare and makeup that is free of endocrine disruptors and will revolutionize your skin and friends, endocrine disruptors are so, so huge. I'm actually going to talk more about my theory surrounding them and a question that we have in today's show. So, I'm going to give away a Beautycounter prize worth over $500. If you would like to get that, to enter, if you haven't written a review of the show yet, go to Apple Podcasts. If you have already written a show, go to Apple Podcasts and update your review. 

In the review, include your thoughts on Vanessa joining the show, what you're excited to learn about from Vanessa, what you're looking forward to, and then send us a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com. We will enter you into the giveaway to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products. If you're a man listening and you're like, “I don't need Beautycounter,” well, A, if you're a man and you win, I will tailor it to make sure I include products for you. And then also it will be great gifts that you can give to the women in your life because got to make the women in your life happy. I think that's all about that. Any other thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I'm a huge fan of Vanessa's. We have bonded over a shared love of Prague and so I know that she will bring another kind of side to the IF Podcast. I think listeners will really like her. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. Yes, so, Vanessa lives in Prague. [chuckles] She's not even in the US. It's been really funny talking to her because we text the time shift. So, basically, I hit her with all the things and then there's like a time gap and then there's the response. But yeah, I can see how you guys would really bond over that because I remember you talking about how much you loved Prague. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, Prague is awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: So, she loves Prague. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, highly recommend. If you have not been to that part of Eastern Europe, you must go. 

Melanie Avalon: When I've talked to her, I'm always like I wish you would move to the US because I want to hang out with her. But I know she adores Prague. So, okie dokie. So, stay tuned for that. 

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes. Some of which are clean fast friendly for free. Yes, for free. It's not just me who is obsessed with these electrolytes. You guys are so obsessed as well. Honestly, every time I post about LMNT electrolytes, so many people overwhelmingly comment about how much they love them. I'm just going to read some random comments, for example, here's one, “LMNT is the greatest thing ever. My friends and I drink one a day. It's our treat. We are ER nurses and know how important electrolytes are.” Here's another. “My pack is on the way. I've been drinking it for a while. It is my new favorite thing during my eating window. I will be starting training for the Honolulu Marathon next week. So, this is perfect for my electrolyte balance.” Here's another. “I think chocolate LMNT and hot water is my favorite now. It's like a hot chocolate.” 

And then we always just have a sprinkling of I love LMNTs. And the more I research and the more I study, the more I realize just how important electrolytes are. They are key for cellular function. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. That's why LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness and so many other things related to electrolyte deficiency. Athletes, for example, can lose up to 7 g of sodium per day. If that sodium is not replaced, it is very common to experience muscle cramps and fatigue. 

But friends, it is not just athletes. Electrolytes can help everyone. Whether it's after a few glasses of wine, "Oh, hey." Keeping an active lifestyle or especially if you are fasting or doing a keto diet, electrolytes may be key. That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing. So many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that. It contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium and 68 milligrams of magnesium.

Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's right. You can get eight single serving packets for free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share elements with a salty friend. The raw unflavored version, by the way, is clean fast friendly. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast that's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dot com slash ifpodcast and LMNT offers no questions asked refunds. So, you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back and no questions asked. You have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, and this is the question that I actually might relate to what I was talking about with the Beautycounter. This comes from Ashley. The subject is uneven fat loss. Ashley says and this was back when Gin was co-hosting. It was a while ago. She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie.” She says, “I am four months into the IF lifestyle and have been listening from newest to oldest to the IF Podcast. I just finished podcast number 108 and a listener had a question about uneven fat loss. I too have experienced this in my own journey with uneven fat loss around my stomach. It shocked me that you both have said you hadn't really heard of that before, but with the podcast being older, I quickly checked in the Facebook groups to see if anyone had talked about it lately. Still nothing. This isn't really a question, but just wanted to let you know there are now two people that have experienced uneven fat loss.” Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge, Ashley. It was a long time ago that we talked about this. Cynthia, I'm curious, have you had this experience with your patients or you where people seem to lose fat unevenly in areas?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. So, Ashley, thank you for your question. I'm just trying to think about how to answer this thoughtfully, because all of us are our own individuals and we gain and lose fat depending on a lot of different variables. Do I find it surprising that there might be uneven fat loss? Yes, I think you really have to kind of trust the process. Depending on where these adipocytes are, I think you mentioned around your stomach, it could be that you may not be at a low enough level of fat reduction to be able to see the results you're looking for. We know that we can't spot reduce. 

Even if we're frustrated, like, I have certain parts of my body that depending on where I'm carrying or how much fat I'm carrying, I will get pockets in certain spots. I've talked to enough friends of mine who are plastic surgeons, just asking them, like, “Why does this happen? How does this happen?” A lot of its genetically mediated. We're kind of born with a certain amount of fat cells and a lot of that's predetermined by genetics, but then also what we're eating in our younger years up and through our teen years when we're starting to continue to develop. So, I would say that have I seen this? Yes. 

I think there are probably different things that you could try to do. I think, obviously, being conscientious about the nutrition piece where you kind of get discretionary macronutrients, things like sweets and desserts and alcohol can definitely derail good diets, healthy fats is one example. It's very easy to overeat healthy fats. They're delicious. I just ate some macadamia nuts before I started recording. Then I just portion them out. I would say if it really bothers you and you feel like the nutrition piece and fasting and maybe strength training is not getting the results that you want, you may be in a position where, if you desire to, and certainly, again, very personal decision. 

Maybe going to talk to a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist to see what other options are available. I have colleagues using [unintelligible [00:26:25] which is an injectable medication, and some of them are using it on themselves just to spot reduce small areas. I don't know if this is a large area all the way up to cryotherapy modalities or even liposuction. Now, again, those are extremes and for some people that would be a no go, but there're a lot of things that you can do. But it's not at all unusual for people to feel like they've got some degree of asymmetry or some degree of lack of consistency in terms of where their fat distribution is. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: Great answer. I'm glad you talked about the genetics piece. So, something that I think about often-- did you ever read I think it's in Good Calories, Bad Calories. Is it? There's this study they often talk about in the low carb ketosphere where it was a weight loss, but there're pictures, there're like black and white pictures from the forevers ago, like, patient pictures of this patient that lost weight only in one part of her body. I think on the top of her body. She was like skinny and emaciated on top and obese on the bottom. Have you seen these pictures? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm. 

Melanie Avalon: And so, the reason I bring that up is because the argument that was made surrounding that, I think they were talking about how it's clearly not just calories, because how can you be emaciated on one part of your body and literally obese on the other part. So, there's like signaling involved here. So, basically, the body can specifically store or not store fat in certain areas. A lot of that can be genetics like Cynthia mentioned, I think a huge piece of it. I'm not saying our skincare makeup is causing this, but these endocrine disruptors, so these toxic chemicals that we are exposed to through our diet, our lifestyle, especially our skincare and makeup, a lot of them are actually obesogens, meaning they actually modulate our fat cells and cause them to store fat. 

So, the studies on this are fascinating. They've actually found that these compounds can make the fat cells more likely to store fat. They make them more inflammatory, they make them actually hold on-- These toxic compounds, the body often puts them into fat cells to keep them from harming your body, which is great in the short term, not so great in the long term, because it means those toxins, while inert from your body, are stored in your fat cells. And we talked about this before. So, then people will lose weight and actually release those toxins, they have to deal with them then and can experience negative side effects from that. So, the process of it though--

These obesogens can make these cells inflammatory, more likely to store fat, and then more likely to actually recruit via cytokines, more fat cell potential growth, which is crazy. They've been shown to modulate insulin and ghrelin. So, our hunger and our satiety hormones. The reason I'm saying this is that it just goes to show that there can be signaling on fat cells for whatever reason, making some fat cells gaining more or holding on to more lipids and some might be more likely to release lipids. So, there's just a lot of things going into that genetics, endocrine disruptors that can definitely be a thing is my point. It's something where just in general, supporting A, anti-inflammatory state, removing these endocrine disruptors, working on your hormones and your sleep and your lifestyle. 

I'm glad Cynthia brought up that there are mechanical interventions that you can do. I'm all about doing whatever you want to do, honestly. Some of those procedures can be invasive, so you really have to weigh cost benefit of that. But there are more invasive procedures where you can address literally just like remove the fat. Things like liposuction or laser liposuction, which is slightly less invasive but still invasive. And then there are other things that people do, like I've talked about CryoSlim before, which is they apply heat and cold to your fat cells and that can actually, “target that area.” There's CoolSculpting which freezes off the fat. That's been shown to be effective. It can have some side effects though, it can be a little bit painful, create some discoloration of the skin for some people. 

But yeah, it's hard to outside of those more-- I don't want to say drastic because they're becoming more and more accessible at different centers and aesthetic places. Outside of that, it's really hard to specifically target fat cells. That said, something I would like to make in the future. This actually relates to our next question. Given the concept that we know that these fat cells have signaling mechanisms that make them more or less likely to store or gain weight, I actually do think that topical fat burners and I haven't found many that I like. That's why I want to make my own. [chuckles] 

But I do think that it's not going to burn calories. You can't put something on your skin and burn calories, that is not is what is happening. But I can see how you could put on compounds that would act as a thermogenic sort of and making those fat cells more likely to burn fat. So, that's why in the future, I want to make a fat cell unlocking cream, I'm just brainstorming right now, but I really want to do this, where you would put it on those stubborn areas, and then you would do something like fasting and exercise. So, then it might make it more likely that those specific stores would release their free fatty acids that you could then burn. It wouldn't actually burn the fat, but it might be a little key helping you unlock the door. So, I'm just putting that out there. But in any case, so, yes, it is a thing. Clearly, it's a thing for Ashley. There are options. Yeah, feel free listeners to write in. If you have your own experiences of uneven fat loss and if you found anything that has been helpful, definitely write in and let us know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that was very comprehensive. I think it really comes down to we've all got quirky things about our bodies and some things we can learn to live with or if it really bothers us, there's no judgment, I think it's really up to the individual to create a plan or a system that will help them address things they don't like. Obviously, very bio individual, there's no judgment irrespective of what people choose to do if there's something they'd like to change about themselves. 

Melanie Avalon: Agreed. I'm glad we're on the same page about all of that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I was the same way when I was seeing patients in the hospital in the office. I was always like, “Hey, I'm just an open-minded individual.” As long as you're not hurting yourself, everyone has to do what resonates and makes sense for them. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, there's so much-- not to get on a soapbox, but there's so much judgment in today's culture, there's just so much judgment. If you just think about it for a second, especially with social media, everybody has an opinion on everything. I mean, I guess right now I have an opinion on everybody having an opinion on everything, but there's just this vibe of everybody needs to be a certain way. If you feel a certain way in your body or want a certain thing that is or isn't right, and I don't know, it's really exhausting. I'm just about, you just do you, like Cynthia said, if you're not hurting anybody else, just do whatever you want. I don't care. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll just leave this here. But as an example, there's a woman, there's a trainer that I follow, and she's been very open about her facelift. It's actually been interesting from a clinical perspective to see what she looks like each day. I was surprised how many people were just so judgmental of her choice. I just said, I hope you have an uneventful surgery and recovery, and thank you for your transparency, but I think there's this duality that people want people to disclose, but then they want to criticize people for disclosing. I think that it helps people understand why there's sometimes a reluctance to be fully transparent, because there's always going to be someone who has an opinion that's going to be the opposite of the choice that you made. But we're all adults. Human nature is such that we tend to be very apt to be critical of one another. I always say I'm too busy to be focusing on what other people are doing. I'm just trying to focus in on what I need to be doing. 

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I mean, it's just really interesting to think about, not to go on a whole esoteric soapbox tangent, but we don't really have a problem at all with women wearing makeup. And so, the concept of makeup, if we just think about literally what it is, you are changing the way your face looks to other people. That's what you're doing. I don't know how that's different than getting some sort of surgery on your face. People will say that, “Oh, well, you're actually changing your face. You're not just putting on makeup.” Well, how is that different from dyeing your hair? Dyeing your hair is changing the actual composition of your hair. In the end, if you just really step back, it's changing something about your appearance. It's you controlling your appearance, either because it makes you feel better when you look that way or how you look to other people, but I just all lump it in the same category. It's just interesting how there's so much judgment of some things and not others. I'm all about let's just all be friends. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, yes, yes. 

Melanie Avalon: All righty. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I was going to say our next question is from Diane. Subject is thermogenics. “Hey, ladies. I'm 100% obsessed with your podcast. I believed in intermittent fasting before and attempted it for about a month about a year ago, but then fell into the keto craze and just became unattracted to dieting altogether. You ladies have definitely restored my faith by convincing me that it isn't a diet, it is most definitely a lifestyle. I'm only one week in and super confident in my future as an IF-er." Thank you. 

My question is simple. "Does taking a thermogenic in a capsule form break the fast? I typically work out in the morning three to four times a week, and I like to take one 30 minutes before I start my workout. My window doesn't usually open until 3:00 to 04:00 PM. I find that thermogenic curbs my appetite even after working out, until I'm ready to break my fast, which is great, unless I've already broken my fast simply by taking the supplement. Any advice will help. Again, thank you so much. You all are awesome. Keep up the great work. Sidenote, I also like to drink water with powder BCAAs during my workout. I would still like some more insight on that as well." Thank you again.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome Diane, thank you for your question. Okay, so a few things. Well, we don't know what you're taking. We don't know what this thermogenic and a capsule is, so we can't say if the ingredients are not break your fast. So, you'd really have to look at the breakdown of the ingredients and take it from there. I do think we can more broadly talk about just the concept of thermogenics. This kind of relates to what I was saying before. Thermogenics are another thing where I find it really interesting because historically it kind of relates to the fat burning cream idea. People will say weight loss pills, these diet pills, which are often some form of thermogenics, don't work. 

Like, there's this black and white idea that they don't work because a pill can't burn calories and it's seen as a fad. I have a more nuanced perspective in that. And again, it's very similar to what I was saying about the fat burning cream. If you're taking a compound that increases your metabolism or helps increase lipolysis, you're probably going to burn more fat if you're not compensating with eating. So, basically, if you're combining a thermogenic with a diet approach or even with something like fasting, depending on what it is. Again, there are so many on the market, and so many of them have a lot of sketchy fillers, and so many of them probably don't have what they say they have in them. I wouldn't touch most of them on the market, maybe any of them except my own. [chuckles] I don't have one right now, but if I have one in the future. 

My point is, in theory, the concept scientifically, yes, they could help support weight loss, but I think a lot of them are sketchy and have problematic ingredients. And again, I wouldn't touch them. As far as whether or not they break the fast, the concept of a thermogenic itself and what is a thermogenic? So, it could be something, like, caffeine is a thermogenic. Something like, well, back in the day, ephedrine was thermogenic of thermogenics. There's a lot of just other compounds that have been shown to upregulate the metabolic rate and things like that. So, that's what we're talking about here. 

She finds, for example, that it curbs her appetite. Again, I don't know which one you're taking, but the active ingredient itself is probably not breaking the fast. You just have to look at the overall whole picture of it. Well, I can talk about BCAAs, those will break a fast because those are amino acids which are sending a very different signal to the body and are going to stop autophagy. They're just a very different signaling mechanism than a thermogenic. What are your thoughts, Cynthia, on thermogenics? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that was a very comprehensive answer. So, Diane, I would say the BCAAs are definitely going to break your fast. Protein is broken down into amino acids, so you would save that for your feeding window. Not knowing what's in thermogenic, I am not a fan of these. I saw a lot of patients that had palpitations. They have anxiety. If you're only getting one meal in the whole day, I get concerned that you're not eating enough food and that you could be in a chronic deprivation of macros and food on a couple of different levels. The fact that you're taking something to suppress your appetite tells me you're not eating enough. And so, I would say, we know things like black coffee, as an example, have some appetite suppressant mechanisms and can help with boost fat oxidation. Same thing with green tea. 

But I would say thermogenics, as a rule, I've never been a fan of those. I've just seen too many side effects. From my perspective, you're trying to suppress your appetite, which tells me that you're probably not fueling your body the way that you need to. We don't want to suppress our appetite. We can do that with fasting. There're counterregulatory hormones that can do that. But I would save your money and maybe you break your fast around lunch time, and you have a meal then, and you have another meal later in the afternoon, and you're able to hit your protein macros and be able to support your body. But I'm concerned that you're undereating, and I'm concerned that taking thermogenic is not only breaking your fast, but has the potential to cause some unnecessary and unneeded side effects. 

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Okay, so our next question. I'm actually very excited for this question. I specifically wanted to include it in the last episode with Cynthia because I know she's all about the olive oils. So, Amy wants to know what should we look for in safe olive oils? 

Cynthia Thurlow: The sad thing is there was a recent study that came out that demonstrated most conventional, by that I mean stuff you can find in your grocery store and Costco is not actually olive oil. It's adulterated with seed oils and seed oil blends with olive oil, which we want to avoid that. So, I have no affiliation with the company that I buy my olive oil from, but I'll tell you about that. But I will also say you're much better off buying organic olive oil. Like, if you're going to buy from the grocery store organic olive oil, you want to know that it's a company that has a good reputation. Most sourced olive oil comes from Spain and Italy just as an aside. So, hopefully that's one of the places they're sourcing from. 

I have been buying olive oil from the honest to God this is its name, Fresh Pressed Olive Oil Club. And so, every month, we get three different types of olive oil, one that's mild, kind of medium taste, and then one that's a little stronger. I think many of us kind of gravitate towards mild tasting oils. But what you're missing out on is that the pungency and by that I mean, if there's a lot of polyphenols, which are these plant-based compounds in an oil, it feels like it's burning your tongue. It's not really burning your tongue. It's a very intense kind of sensation. This is just completely ironic. My most recent order, they talk about where the things are sourced from, what varieties of olives you get in each order. 

So, as an example, again, I have no affiliation with them. I don't get anything. I don't get a kickback of any kind. But the bold choice was from two areas in Spain. It had three different types of oils and the flavor profile was bold, and they give you a depiction. I'll just share that Ben Azadi, who introduced me to this company, and I just think that we should be thoughtful about where we're sourcing things from. I recognize not everyone may have it in their budget to be able to buy really high-quality oil. So, when you go to the grocery store really looking for oils that are sourced from Spain and Italy, that's where most of the real olive oil comes from. And then organic extra virgin, because that's the first press out of the gate with the olives. Those are two kinds of good things. And then just know that when you go to the grocery store, most of what's there is adulterated. 

Same thing when you go to a restaurant, here in the United States, there's not as much concern about quality. Sometimes your $100 steak is cooked in seed oils, which is a whole separate tangential conversation and rabbit hole, I won't go down. So, those are things I generally recommend. Obviously, there're lots of other options, but this is the company that I've been buying olive oil with. And for me, three bottles of olive oil will last us months. So, I think they had an option where you could join for a penny, meaning you would get a bottle of olive oil for a penny. It was something ridiculous, maybe a dollar, just to try it out. And we actually really liked it. Now this is one of my favorite things to gift to people. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you. You gifted me some of the olive oil for Christmas, which is awesome. So, thank you so much. A lot of great things that you said there. It was so interesting. I went down, like, an olive oil tangent. It's a whole thing. The different types that you see on the market, so there's typically extra virgin, virgin, and then there's light or pure, these different olive oils. So, the extra virgin is the creme de la creme. So, it's mechanically processed. It's cold pressed just basically taking that initial oil straight from the olive. The virgin is still good like that with that extraction process, just not quite as good. There're actually different ratings of olive oils, but one of the main organizations basically qualifies these by the level of free fatty acids. So, it has to do with how many of those are in the olive oil. 

So, for example, extra virgin has less than 0.8%. Virgin has up to 2%. And then the pure and light ones, those relate to what Cynthia was saying. Well, two parts. In general, the pure and light ones. Light, it's not because they're less calories or anything like that. It's more about the marketing and that they often tend to be lighter in color, lighter in flavor. Well, they are refined, so it's probably extracted using chemicals or heat, which is not good, especially when we know how fragile these fatty acids can be and how they have the potential to turn inflammatory when they are heat processed. So, that's a major issue. 

They can also or often adulterated with other like Cynthia was saying other oils like canola oil, grapeseed oil, seed oils. So, it's like a major major issue. But again, it's a major issue not just for the light oils, it happens with the virgin and the extra virgin. This is one of the largest areas for food fraud, which I had Robert Lustig on the show for his book Metabolical. You interviewed him, right, as well? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. He was amazing. Love his book man. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love him. He has a lot in his book about food fraud, the olive oil industry. Major issue with the fish industry, like, scarred me for life. I was like, “Oh, man.” Even if you're having fish at restaurants, oftentimes you're not having what you think you're having, which is a major problem. But, yes, this is a major, major issue with olive oils. Like Cynthia was saying, yes, Spain and Italy are historically the go to, but apparently now it's also becoming a big problem there as well, which is very concerning. I was doing a little bit of research into it. Apparently the two countries where it's least likely to have food fraud are actually Australia and Chile, which I thought was really interesting because they actually have— so, Australia actually has the most stringent standards and testing system for their olive oils, which is pretty interesting. 

But things you want to look for on the bottle, so, well, A, it sounds awesome to do something like Cynthia is doing, where basically you're putting your trust into that company to source you the good olive oil, so that takes away all of you having to play detective. So, I love that concept. I actually also got introduced recently to a company that's very similar. It's not the same company, but they send --I probably should have looked this up beforehand, similar concept where they send you the olive oils. It's like Dry Farm Wines where you're like getting random olive oils to try, but they're all about the quality and everything. What was interesting about this company is I was connected through a friend, and I kept asking to be directly connected to the company. He was saying, “Well, they want to just send it to you because they don't want you to be biased and they want you to just try the olive oils.” 

I was like, “Yes, but I need to talk to them. So, if I do like them, I can share them with my listeners. I will look up the company and put it in the show notes. But if you're just at the store looking some things to look for, you definitely want it in a dark bottle, do not even think of getting olive oil that's not in a dark bottle. Olive oil oxidizes very easily. It goes bad, it can get rancid. So, you want to protect it. So, when you do have it, you want to store it in a cool, dry place. The best buys, like the expiration date, doesn't even matter. Don't even look at that. That's not telling you anything. Also, if it has a bottled-on date also doesn't matter, just throw that out because that can basically-- that's just when it was put in the bottle, it doesn't talk about when the actual olives, like, when the harvesting happened. So, that's why you want to look for a harvest date. That's the date you want to look for on the bottle. The more specifics on the bottle, the better. If there's an estate name, a mill name, that's good. If it specifically says where it's coming from, if there's third party certification seals, those can be really helpful. So, in Europe, they have protected designation of origin, the PDO, Italy has something called the DOP or in California, The California Olive Oil Council has the COOC certified extra virgin seal. So that's really good to look for those standards beyond everything else, just the actual taste and quality can be really important. Cynthia was talking about how there's different-- people will even do, like, olive oil tastings. Have you done those before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. There was this wonderful place in Northern Virginia that did them. I believe the mom was like from Italy and the dad was from South America, maybe Argentina. They had this family business and they would have olive oil tastings. It was really interesting to see the high polyphenol content ones were really bitter, and they would always say, “Don't be afraid of bitter.” Unfortunately, our palates are so conditioned to sweet. Now that I really understand how important polyphenol rich compounds are to our health, I'm like, “Oh my gosh,” those opportunities to try different olive oils and I would always gravitate towards the mild one, but now bitter things like bitter tea, bitter vegetables, it sends important information to our bodies. But yes, I've been to olive oil tastings and I love doing them. I think it's such a great opportunity to expand our palates.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned the oleocanthol because that's attributed to be one of the main benefits for why olive oil has so many benefits. It's very anti-inflammatory. It rivals NSAIDs in clinical studies for its anti-inflammatory potential. I remember the first time I went through an olive oil phase where I was using all the olive oil. I remember I would get that burning feeling and I thought it was because I was allergic. And then I realized later it is from that plant compound that does have those health benefits. For the health benefits, at least you do want that burning feeling from the olive oil and there're benefits with that increased bitterness and things like that. So, yeah, olive oils. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Certainly, a very comprehensive way of talking about olive oils. 

Melanie Avalon: Now I'm like craving some olive oil. Maybe rather than doing a last question just to end things, since this is our last moment together on the show, what is in the future for Cynthia Thurlow? What should we be looking for? What are you excited about? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, thank you for that question. I would say there's a degree of consistency. So, obviously the book Everyday Wellness continuing to kind of evolve these supplement lines, speaking on stages. I'm in the midst of writing a second book and so that is certainly exciting. I think that a lot of this year is going to be foundational work that I'm building within my business to be able to continue to scale. Obviously, group programs will continue to be there. Wholistic Blueprint and IF:45 but you'll probably just see a lot of me traveling. I always say I work hard, I play hard, and so going on vacation is one of my favorite things to do. Being able to connect with loved ones, my loved ones, my kids are obviously and my husband are very very important to me, being really deliberate with my time. I think the biggest thing is the realization that if I spread myself too thin, then I can't be good at any one thing. 

So, I'm trying to be super deliberate, blinders on, we're going to be running a beta test for a program that will be coming out in May. For those of you that already follow me on social media or on my email list, just know that there's something coming out that's really cool, that actually will be for men and women because we've had so many requests, wives and significant others want to be able to do programs with their significant others. And so, we endeavored to create a program that is going to be able to meet people at different needs. I'm really excited because I feel like I'm putting things together in a way that is very thoughtful and I don't think I know that what I want to leave people with is that they feel educated, inspired, and empowered. That's definitely one of the missions of my business. 

You'll definitely still see me on social media. I still remain an introvert, so I may not be on video all the time, but you'll definitely be hearing lots of podcasting. We've got some really incredible guests coming up that I'm excited about. Sometimes you get the incredible guests, like the unicorns, you get them when they write a book. [laughs] I've been chasing after two or three people for at least 6 to 12 months, and they're coming on in the next month, which is exciting. Lots of prep, but yeah, all good things. Definitely all good things. Yeah, lots of travel, that's also part of it. That's the funny thing is, people now will say to me, “Oh, you kind of inspire me to set time aside.” I'm like, it doesn't have to be a grandiose trip, it could just be a trip an hour away, or you could just go away for a night. But for me, traveling is like one of my favorite things to do outside of working in my business. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes, that is incredible. If they want to specifically follow you, how can they get on your email list? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, easiest thing to do is just go to my website. There's a little box where you can put your email in, so www.cynthiathurlow.com. You can also get information about upcoming launches. We have waiting lists for programs and I always encourage people to get on the waitlist because, hint, oftentimes when the waitlist opens, it's before the general public can sign up for classes, and so we always have financial incentives to sign up early. So, yeah, we've had a lot of interest in IF:45 and in Wholistic Blueprint, which we just finished this past week. So, yeah, definitely a good way to stay in touch. I always say that I don't endeavor to over email my list. I try to be very judicious, but yeah, it's exciting. I think that you can catch me on Instagram cynthia_thurlow_. 

I wish everything was the same on every platform, but if you can imagine, there are a lot of Cynthia Thurlows out there, which kind of muddied the waters. I'm trying to have consistency. I'm on Twitter. Be forewarned, I can be snarky. I'm on LinkedIn. I have a free Facebook group, Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle/my name. It's a free group. You just have to answer a couple of questions, largely centering around the fact that I'm not giving you medical advice. You'd be surprised how many people don't want to check that box and they don't get in and we have nothing to do with it. That's how the group is set up. We have men and women in that group. It's a very nice, supportive community. We are anti-drama. We boot people out for that. Those are the ways to definitely stay in touch and also subscribe to Everyday Wellness. We're getting close to 100,000 subscribers and this is something I've been working towards very diligently. And thank you for all the support. Listeners should know that it goes both ways with Melanie and I. I will continue to be a supporter of the podcast and of her and all of your endeavors as well as Vanessa's. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It's been such a beautiful journey. I'm so excited to see where everything goes with you. It's just really exciting, everything that you're doing and really, really helpful in having a profound impact on the world, especially women. So, thank you so, so much. We'll put links, listeners, to everything that we talked about and all of those resources and all of Cynthia's stuff in the show notes. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode314 and then you can follow us on Instagram, @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and @ifpodcast. And then again. Lastly, if you would like to be entered into a giveaway to win over $500 worth of beauty counter, go to Apple Podcasts, write a review of the show and/or update your current review to say what you are excited about to experience with Vanessa Spina. She will be here week after next. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful, Cynthia, anything from you before we go? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you my friend and listeners just know that I will be cheering everyone on from the sidelines. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I will talk to you soon. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

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Apr 16

Episode 313: New Publicity, High Volume Training, Carb Cycling, Marathons, REM Sleep, Deep Sleep, Magnesium, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 313 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
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3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX MAGNESIUM NIGHTCAP: Melanie’s Magnesium Nightcap Features Magnesium Threonate, The Only Type Of Magnesium Shown To Significantly Cross The Blood Brain Barrier, To Support Sleep, Stress, Memory, And Mood! Get 15% Off During The Launch (April 8th - April 17th, 2023) With Code NIGHTCAP15 at avalonx.us And 10% off anytime at  avalonx.us and mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon

21:15 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

24:15 - Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I just recently trained and completed a marathon— can you discuss fueling for endurance in Perimenopause?

39:25 - Listener Q&A: Paul - How to improve REM vs deep sleep (as tracked on Oura)

54:45 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

SLEEP REMEDY: Go To melanievalon.com/sleepremedy And Use the code MELANIEAVALON for 10% Off!!

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 313 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. Have you ever felt ashamed or guilty when you eat certain foods? These are likely the "forbidden foods," that you can't touch and you stay away from them. We are constantly faced with societal pressure and judgment around what we eat and how we look. So, we often feel guilty when we eat something that we think is bad for us. Instead of falling for this, we need to shift our focus to thoughtful nourishment, where we are giving our body what it needs. You guys know we are obsessed with continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. NutriSense can help you identify which foods are good for you and what you should eat less of.

They provide continuous glucose monitors, which track your glucose levels in real time. So, basically, you're able to see, okay, I just ate this, and this is what happened to my blood sugar. Once you're able to see the real impact of certain foods on your body, you can start making better food choices guilt free. The CGM is an objective tool through which you can see how your body reacts to different food. This is so important, not subjective, objective. And to make sense of all the data, because it can be a lot. NutriSense pairs you with an expert dietitian who will help you with personalized diet and lifestyle changes that are based on what works best for you.

And you just might be surprised to find that something you used to feel guilty about does not trigger blood sugar spikes after all. You can actually enjoy it in moderation. Maybe you don't need to avoid certain foods or feel guilty about it. Just sign up for the NutriSense program and start making correct food choices today. Curious how it works? A continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time, the application is so easy, so painless. Check out my Instagram, I post videos all the time of putting it on.

Then there's the NutriSense app. With that, you can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiments, and so much more. And then, of course, you get that expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month of free dietitian support. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They'll guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs. I get so much feedback about how people love this aspect of the program. It's really personalized and it really helps you make sense of everything. Go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. I will put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome, this is episode number 313 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I've had a crazy week. Well, two things. The first is that I had an article published in CNBC, which was crazy because it was an actual profile feature-type thing, not just a quote, but a funny story about it. [laughs] I've tried very hard to not talk about my age publicly just because of mostly it's from my acting background, like, you don't want people to know your age or whatever. So, I get questions all the time about how old I am. And so, when the reporter was writing the story, she sent me an email prior to it publishing with fact checking about some different things and sign-offs for the photos and all of that. She asked me if she could include my age in it. So, I was a little bit stressed, and I was talking to my publicist, and I was like, should I and we decided, presumably, hopefully, if I keep getting more articles, it's just going to happen someday, so I might as well just let it go out there.

So, when I told her, I sort of made it clear that I don't normally do that and I don't really want to, but if she wanted to, if she thought it was better for the article to go ahead, I was hoping she would either not do it or put it in somewhere on the down low. She literally made it the title. Did you see the article? [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. I guess as middle-aged women where a lot of women are embarrassed to say their age, I think we should all be proud of our ages. Was it that you thought there would be some bias because you were a young woman?

Melanie Avalon: No, it really mostly goes back to the acting stuff, in which I'm not actively doing right now with the podcasting, so it doesn't matter so much. But like with acting, you could not get roles because of certain .

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? Okay.

Melanie Avalon: So, acting resumes, your age is usually not on there or anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. Okay. That gives context, so at least that makes sense to why you would be averse to discussing that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It is kind of typical to in general how I am with transparency and all the things, I do have fears of aging. It was just funny, though, because it came out and I was like, "Oh, well." [laughs] Okay. And then the crazy part, though, the second part is that a reporter at Fox reached out about an article, and that was more like a quote-type situation. It was crazy because it was Fox Health, and it's about biohacking. And she also quotes Dave Asprey, so it's like me and Dave Asprey being quoted. And she quoted me like seven times, which is insane.

But then what's even crazier is yesterday, if you Googled-- it's probably changed now because news changes so fast. But if you Googled Biohacking and Google News, I was on the front page twice, which is crazy. I was the number one hit for the Fox article, and then CNBC was like a few down. I just say all this to say it's very surreal and exciting and I don't know what's happening, but it's exciting to see biohacking getting out there in the mainstream media.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Well, and I think there aren't a lot of, like when I think about biohackers, I think it's very much a male-dominated field. I think it's certainly very encouraging that they're featuring more women.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and actually both of the journalists were women, come to think of it. Although I actually got another reporter at Fox reached out. I don't know if he saw the Fox article. I'm guessing I don't know because it was not through my publicist. It was just random and so that was a male. But he said he's writing about biohacking [laughs] and wants to interview me, I was like okay.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. So, what is new with you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I literally just finished a podcast with Dr. Mark Hyman, which was really awesome. He is someone that I've really looked up to in the functional medicine space. I have lots of his books, really respect his work, and it was a lot of fun to record with him. We had a couple, like, technical glitches. I'm not sure where that was coming from. There was like of a bump to the beginning to the interview, not because of anything either of us were doing. I think there's just riverside gremlins, just like, you can have Zencastr and Zoom gremlins, just things that ensure technology is not working properly.

But yeah, that was a really cool win this morning. I just think it's important for more women to get interviewed talking about fasting and what is different about fasting for women versus men and how these hormetic stressors can help improve our health. And he was really interested in the supplements, and so we spent a good amount of time talking about creatine and also Myo-inositol. When you admire someone in the health and wellness space, to be able to connect with them and try not totally fan geek and be a spaz, because I think for all of us, it's the recognition like, this is amazing to have been able to interact with someone that I've admired for so long, but also just have a conversation and feel very comfortable being able to discuss how we look differently at health and wellness than we did during our training. And so that was really cool.

This is one of those days. Like, I was trying to explain to my mom, who is coming this afternoon, trying to explain to her, like, "Oh, yeah, I've got this podcast," and I have two with Melanie. I don't know if your parents understand podcasting. My parents just aren't into it. They don't really fully understand the utility and the amount of connection you can have with people. And so, you're trying to explain to my mom, this is a serious part of what I do. It's a wonderful thing that I do, but context of what these things represent, your parents are little bit younger than mine, so they may be more into the concept of podcasting.

Melanie Avalon: They definitely understand because what I'm hearing you say is that, does your mom not quite understand that it's like, career related, that it's very serious?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. She thinks it's like a hobby. Like, this is my hobby. I'm trying to explain to her, if you will arrive while I'm recording, you have to sit and be quiet. [laughs] You can't just come in and talk to me, that kind of thing. But I think my parents are of a generation, like, I love to read, but that's not the only way I learn. And so, trying to explain, like, you can listen in your car, and you can listen while you're at the gym, and you can listen while you're at grocery shop. There're so many ways to learn. It's not just being in front of a book. I think it's just this technology piece. I have aunts who are really into podcasts, so I know it's not per se a generational thing, but it just makes me laugh at my mom. I'll just send her a podcast and she'll be like, "When am I supposed to listen to this?" I'm like, "I don't know. When you're gardening, like, you're retired. You have all this time in the world to do these things." So, anyhow.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, my parents definitely understand that it's a career and they understand that it's well, actually-- they definitely understand because whenever I feel like I'll talk really casually about things, like if an interview gets rescheduled or something like that and they'll get worried, I'm like, no, I'm like, "Mom, it's okay." [laughs] Like it's all okay. She's listened to some occasionally, but definitely not regularly. Although, speaking of interviewing, well, first question, how did you get the interview with Mark Hyman? Were you introduced to him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Their team reached out, so that was nice. Yeah. I was like, yes. [laughs] When people like that reach out, you're like, clear my schedule to make that happen. I've had to kind of explain to my team that when those kinds of requests come in, they interrupt my workflow. Like, we remove things from our schedule. We make ourselves available. This is how this works. So, yeah, they reached out. But I had been in his newsletter earlier this year. The Creatine had been in his newsletter, so I assume that I was, like, on their radar, which I thought was really cool and I was like, if nothing more comes out of it, I'm so grateful for that opportunity to be part of his newsletter.

But yeah, he was a great interviewer. I think you probably know this. I think most people probably know this. There are people who interview at a level that you're just I hope to be at that level at some point and he really did an amazing job. Like, asked me things other people have never asked. Well, I don't think I know, I appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. The reason I was thinking about it was, thank you for your intro to Gabor Maté because I interviewed him. Oh, and I was going to say, I feel like that'll be the one episode that my mom-- well, I don't know if she wants to listen to it because I talked about her a lot. Kind of like you said, it turned into, like, a therapy session.

Cynthia Thurlow: Totally. It's interesting. I don't know if you saw there was, like, an event where he was interviewing Prince Harry, and I feel so conflicted about-- I'm glad that Prince Harry's had so much success with that book and his message, but it's not a slight against him or Megan. It's not any of my business. I was like, I feel like it's so personal. [laughs] Yeah, he is probably one of my favorite interviews, because I think you have to have done the work to be able to interview someone like that, and it would be very inauthentic otherwise. I don't know if you feel similarly after interviewing him.

Melanie Avalon: That experience. I was like, I'm basically having, like, a therapy session with Gabor Maté, except, like, thousands of people are listening. It's fine. [laughs] Good thing I go to therapy every week anyways. Oh, we also had, like, three times, the call dropped out. Like, he just went away. And I was like my heart sank. At the very beginning, I was so nervous. I was just so nervous about it. I introduced him and I said his name, and then I said Dr. Maté to introduce him. He corrected me and he said it's Gabor because he was saying to call him by his first name. But I was so on edge that I thought he was saying that I mispronounced his name. It was like the most mortified moment I think I've ever had on the show and it wasn't even a real moment because that wasn't what he meant; it was incredible. My mom might listen to that was the whole point.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I sent the book to my dad. I'm not sure he'll ever read it, but I think that there are certain books that come along that you recognize how impactful they are on a very substantive level. It's a joy read. Some books are just fun to read and people are fun to interview, but that book, when I read it, I was like, wow, this is a book that took 10 years to write, and this is his life's work, and this is a book that is going to have a tremendous ripple effect for years to come. What a joy to be able to connect with someone like that. So, I'm so glad that you were able to interview him.

Melanie Avalon: And thank you because you made that connection, so I really appreciate it.

Cynthia Thurlow: You're very welcome. Well, you've done that for me many times.

Melanie Avalon: We have a nice little overlapping pool of guests. I have one more thing to touch on before we jump in. This actually well, it relates to one of our questions, so I'm trying to decide if I should talk about it now. I'll talk about it now briefly, and then I'll talk about it more in one of the questions. But today-- so hopefully listeners are listening today that this airs. If you're listening today, March 17, then this is your last day to get the launch special for my new Magnesium Threonate. So, I'm so excited about this magnesium. Basically, when I created my Magnesium 8, which is eight different types of magnesiums. I did not specifically include Magnesium Threonate because it's a special type of magnesium that specifically crosses the blood-brain barrier. It has that unique purpose, and then secondly, it requires a pretty high therapeutic dose to get the intended benefits.

If I had included it in the blend, it just wasn't feasible. Like, you wouldn't have gotten enough of it to actually get the effects that you wanted. So, I released it as a standalone, it's called the Magnesium Nightcap. You can take it to help with everything related to your brain. So, sleep, mood, memory, and this is why I'm going to talk about it, and a little bit about sleep. But so, specifically, if you'd really like to support your sleep, if you'd like to support your cognitive function, the studies have shown that Magnesium Threonate can help, like I said, with memory, learning, mood, it has been shown to reduce anxiety and depression symptoms, and it's also been shown to be neuroprotective. You definitely want to get my Magnesium Nightcap. So, again, today, the 17th, is the last day to get the launch special, and the launch special is 15% off, and the code for that is NIGHTCAP15.

However, some lucky people who got my Magnesium 8 special, so the people who grab that launch special, actually have a special code for 25% off, which is awesome. And that code was emailed to them. So, all the more reason if you didn't get that code to be on all the lists so that you don't miss the specials going forward. For that, it is avalonx.us/emaillist and you can text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. When you text that number, you'll also get a one-time 20% off code, which is great. So, yeah, those are those details. I'll probably circle around just a tiny bit to the magnesium in our sleep question, but I just wanted to get that in there. And we do have another sort of announcement we could share at the end of the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: It's like a teaser.

Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret. I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt. But it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while. You can imagine how thrilled I was when a company called Lomi by Pela reached out to me, wanting to sponsor the show. Normally I have to think about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device, it is incredible.

Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into the dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around six to eight weeks, and maybe even up to a year. But nope with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants.

And Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours. You can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods and packaging that are Lomi Approved. And then there's the Grow Mode that's 24 hours, it's low heat with a longer duration, and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible.

Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with. If you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well turn your food waste into the dirt with the press of a button with Lomi, use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's lomi.com/ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, shall we jump into questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so to start things off, we have a question from Stephanie and this comes still from when we gathered all those AMA questions. But she says, "I just recently trained and completed a marathon. Can you discuss fueling for endurance in perimenopause?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I've thought about this question in the context of this is an Intermittent Fasting Podcast. But when I have women in perimenopause or menopause that are training for big events, I am not a fan of a great deal of fasting so, 12, 13 hours fasted or digestive rest, however, you want to reframe that, I think you have to not be afraid to have some carbohydrate. That doesn't mean overwhelming amounts of carbohydrates. I think the first thing that I think about is, are you sleeping? Are you recovering? Are you eating an anti-inflammatory diet? I find a lot of women in perimenopause do best really limiting or eliminating gluten and grains. I do have some very active women in some of my groups. And so, the way that we kind of dance around this is protein is consistent, cycling carbohydrates, depending on how you feel. Obviously, if you're insulin resistant, really being mindful of discretionary carbohydrates and making sure they're coming from real whole food sources.

Whether it's sweet potato or root vegetables or low glycemic fruit like berries and citrus fruit, I think it's very, very dependent. Stephanie, the way to answer your question is really, are you insulin sensitive? How's your sleep? How are you managing the volume of training? Because I find that a lot of women who've been avid endurance athletes in their 20s and 30s just don't recover quite as well. So, making sure you're getting enough recovery, making sure that you're eating enough food, and not over fasting, I think are the big kind of high points. Obviously, my area of expertise is not training high-level athletes. And if you look at people like Dr. Stacy Sims, she is anti-fasting for women and she is someone that works with elite athletes and individuals that are doing a high volume of training. So, I think it's very unique. But I would say really being cognizant of the lifestyle piece that goes along with that doesn't mean it's impossible just making sure you're getting enough recovery, getting enough sleep, making sure that you're getting your macros, and certainly not to restrict food, especially when you're doing a large volume. Like, I've had girlfriends that were training for Ironman races. Whenever I say that, I always feel like I'm like Ironman, Ironman.

Melanie Avalon: I guess it would be like, yeah, IRONMANs, I guess.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, like semantics in my brain. But I think it's really important to just make sure you're not overtraining. I think that's the big-- this role of hormesis, beneficial stress in the right amount at the right time, really important. I just see a lot of women that are still doing and I'm not picking on CrossFit, I'm just going to give that as an example. CrossFit, Orangetheory Fitness, really intense exercise, not enough recovery, and their cortisol just gets depleted. So, just make sure you're taking care of you while you're doing that high volume of training. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, that was very, very helpful. You definitely know a lot more about that than I do. It's not at all my forte, the athletic realm, but I will just echo some of the things that Cynthia said, which is that in general, I like to think that I am macronutrient agnostic and that I always want people to find what works best for them. I do think in general, a lot of people, especially not in our fasting and obviously keto community, will be in a place of really fueling endurance and a lot of activity on carbs and constantly doing the fuel-ups and stuff like that. And they can find great benefits from switching to a low-carb state to fuel endurance because it really pairs well with endurance because you have essentially unlimited fat stores, even people who are thin in any given race. You're not going to run out of fats compared to carbs, where that's requiring constant fuel-ups and things like that and it's more of a roller coaster-type situation.

In general, perimenopausal women aside, I feel like low-carb ketogenic diets can be really great for endurance once people's bodies adapt to them. That said, I think it's really important, especially for women, and I'm really just echoing what Cynthia said, the body can get too stressed from these types of things. So, that's were bringing in, I like how Cynthia was talking about carb ups might be really beneficial. So, basically finding the right approach to the macronutrients that will allow you to both fuel longer-term endurance-type activities on a lower carb approach while still making sure that you're getting in the carb ups in the way that you need to not be overly stressed. Do you like intense actual carbs-- because you normally eat lower carbs, right? Do you have like carb up days at all?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I always say in the context of this conversation, this is what works for me, because we get so many questions across social media, my teams like we have to just follow you into the gym so that people understand. I typically aim to do three strength training days a week and two of the three are legs and I do some combination of upper body. So, I try to be really efficient because I genuinely don't love the gym that we go to, but we don't have a lot of options because we're not where were before in our state. So, I'll just leave it there. So, I'm like very efficient, I get in, I get out. I also do a lot of Zone 2 Training, and I think Peter Attia does a really good job of explaining what Zone 2 Training is and that's just being physically active. It doesn't necessarily have to be like on a treadmill or a stairmill or elliptical trainer, but I do plenty of Zone 2.

One of the things that I think has been a needle mover for me personally is doing Pilates, largely because I recently learned on Hypermobile and it's really important for me to stretch. So, Pilates is an exercise for my brain. Although I'm working my core, I do find it challenging and those are the three things I try to really focus on and be diligent about and that works well for me. So, when I'm doing strength training. I'm trying to keep my heart rate up, so I'm not necessarily resting more than a minute in between sets. And that's with my trainer's approval. It's not like I'm doing anything to hurt myself. But I do like to get sweaty. And I definitely think that each one of us has to kind of find what works best for me, maintaining muscle is really important, and I'm at a disadvantage.

Ironically, I was talking to Mark Hyman about this. Once you're in late perimenopause, early menopause, you're at a hormonal disadvantage about building muscle unless you're actively working against it. And so, that's why the strength training piece is so important. But I think, for me, I just stopped enjoying the CrossFit-type classes. I stopped enjoying those conditioning classes. I think there's a point to which you get the diminishing law of returns. And so, I think, for me, what I've learned is this is what works for me. I eat a carnivore-ish diet, so generally high in protein, lower in fat, so I do better with leaner meat and then the carbs. I've actually been experimenting more with low glycemic fruit and having a little bit more discretionary carbohydrates just to see how it impacts my sleep. And so, I've been pleasantly surprised.

This is the experiment of the N of 1. I'm not yet ready to say this applies to everybody, but I've been experimenting with more carbohydrates. Not a lot, but experimenting with more to see how it impacts my sleep quality and I've been pleasantly surprised, but not yet ready to share it's this much carbohydrate because I'm still experimenting. But I do find that when I carbohydrate cycle, I'm less likely to feel like I'm depriving myself. And I think everyone has to decide what makes them feel good. I don't do well with a high-fat diet. That's why traditional keto wouldn't work well for me.

I just don't feel good. I just recognize that I do better with leaner meat. And that's something that's been corroborated now by nutrigenomic testing, which is taking my genetics and looking at all the data, and ironically enough, without this person even knowing how I ate, she was telling me exactly my ideal way to eat. I was like, well that makes sense. At least that validates. I'm not crazy. [laughs] I know that you tend to be high protein, high carb, correct?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's so interesting because, I literally-- one of my first memories of us doing this show, actually, I think, is when you were sharing your diet, it was probably on this show, and you made the comment about the leaner meat piece which I feel is sort of rare because there's always all this emphasis on the fat part of things because people are so anti-carb often that people don't normally say that they eat leaner meat when they're existing. Not that we're doing keto, but in this sphere, if that makes sense. If you're in the low fat, you know obviously, like more vegan camp, you would be all vegans, wouldn't be eating meat anyways. But point is, it's like a vibe that I don't hear a lot. And I remember you saying that, and I was like, "Oh, it's like, me too," because yes so historically, I did go through a period of keto and very high fat.

Although, interestingly, it was really plant-based fats. Like, I basically would eat tons of coconut oil and lean meats. And then I switched to leaner meats. I basically just took out the fat. And then I brought back the carbs in the form of low glycemic fruits like you're mentioning and what's really interesting hearing about your nutrigenomic experience. When I do those tests, they actually say that I'm better with low carb and keto rather than the carb side of things. But intuitively, I just looking back at my timeline and again, I'm all about people need to find what works for them. So, I'm always hesitant to talk about what I eat or my diet history because I feel like people want to do what I'm doing exactly, which is not the takeaway message here. But what's interesting is that I was low carb for I wonder how long? Probably three years, maybe. And then I brought back the fruit and I literally just felt like my body was coming alive.

I was like, oh, my goodness. What's interesting is I do remember the very first few days I did feel like I got back into a little blood sugary type feeling or blood sugar swing feeling, but I was still fasting. I powered through it and then I very quickly adapted, and then I realized I'm just so much happier, like, having my carb up essentially every night with fruit and filling up those glycogen stores and then I sleep better. This is going to sound like very vague, but I just feel more lighter and glowy. I like the way fruit makes me feel hydrated, I think. I don't really have to hardcore stress about electrolytes as much as when I was low carb. For me, it works really, really well. And I still stay with the lean meats, the high protein. I don't really ever add fat, but I do eat salmon few times a week and that's actually pretty fatty. Do you add fats?

Cynthia Thurlow: But this is the only time you'll ever hear me utter this phrase, plant-based fats. But this is where-- no, and I'm not being snarky, I feel like I have to preemptively say, I do well with macadamia nuts, which I'm obsessed with. I do well with MCT oil, coconut oil, butter. I tolerate ghee. If I want nut butter or extra virgin olive oil or avocados, I do really well with those. But again, that's the one lever that I have to be the most careful with. And it drives my husband crazy because leaner, like beef, is more expensive. Sometimes our grocery bills are mitigated by the fact that half the house likes fatty meat and the other half doesn't. So, it's just one of those things. I think for everyone listening, you might do well with low carb, you might not. I think it's all about a degree of experimentation and being open minded.

Even though I'm not a traditional keto person, I sometimes get accused of being one, which I'm really not. I'm too high protein to be keto. But I do find that everyone should be open minded. If something's not working for you, that's okay. Like for me, I'm also someone that needs more electrolytes. If I'm doing low carb and I can tell on days when I'm depleting glycogen stores so stored sugar because I'm urinating more and I'm like, okay, I need more electrolytes to kind of hold on to some of that water. But it's being depleted because you're going lower carbohydrates, your body's kind of breaking down this glycogen source and you're urinating out not just sodium, but other electrolytes. But yeah, definitely a good point to honor what works best for you and not feel pressured to do something that doesn't make your body feel good, because if I were fully ketogenic, I probably would not be feeling as good as I do. But that's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. And I really encourage people to not lump all carbs into one basket. Like for me, for example, I do really well with the fruit. Like starches? No, if I eat starches, I fill up like a balloon with water retention and it messes with my energy levels. But some people do great with starches. That's perfect for them. Some people fruit is not their thing. I understand that starches and fruit are all glucose, sucrose, and fructose, but the ratio of them and whether or not they're complex or not can affect how your body breaks them down and processes them and then of course, there's the gut microbiome aspect. It's just so individual and so unique. I as well like you and I think we've talked about this before, but I do prefer for me plant-based fats. Interestingly the animal fats are very satiating for me, which is a good thing. But they just feel-- I think we talked about this before they just for me, I feel heavier in my body or something. I feel like I process the plant-based fats better. They don't seem to slow down my system if that makes sense.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I can't. The last time I had duck-fat fries, I just about vomited. They tasted delicious. Like 2 hours later I was like-- and let me just preemptively say my gallbladder is very healthy. My gallbladder, it's just the way that my body responds to animal-based fats. This is a perfect example of the N of 1 and experimenting to find what works best. If you're insulin sensitive, you have a lot more flexibility than if you don't. I think that's a big takeaway.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, definitely. Awesome. Okay. Thank you, Stephanie, for your question. Shall we go on to our next one?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Next question is Paul. "How to improve REM versus deep sleep as tracked on Oura? Specific strategies or supplements to improve either depending on what we seem to be getting enough of on a regular basis."

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Paul, well, thank you so much for your question. For people who don't have an Oura Ring, something that's really cool about it is you can see your different sleep stages throughout the night, like how long you spent in each stage. Again, it's using a lot of different data to determine that. It's not actually measuring your brain waves, but it does seem to have pretty intelligent AI in order to come up with those numbers. So, you might realize that you are lacking or that you might benefit from more of one certain type of sleep. So, REM sleep, I got a lot of information from this. I got a lot of information actually from Oura's website, appropriately enough. It's actually known as paradoxical sleep because it engages the body and the brain very similar to when you're awake, which is super cool. So, 80% of our dreams actually occur in REM sleep. I had written down the amount, it occurs every 90 to 120 minutes. Early adults should spend around 20% to 25% of their total time in REM sleep. The equivalent of that is basically if you're sleeping 7 to 8 hours, then you should have around 90 minutes in REM.

And the purpose of REM is that it seems to help with our brain health and our emotions and our mental wellness. It's basically like I said, it's when a lot of dreaming occurs. It's really important for-- if you have anxiety or emotional experiences during the day. It's when the brain basically deals with that and reduces the amygdala's response and can reduce your adrenaline. It can actually help you process the things that happen in our stressful life. So, it's really important for emotional balance. So, can you specifically increase REM? Yes and no. In general, stepping back, it's probably best to just focus on your entire sleep as a whole, rather than the very specific sleep stages, but I'm going to give a lot of caveats to that. And also, if you had some disorder understandably that affected a certain type of sleep, that would definitely be a different situation.

But in general, I think the best approach is just supporting sleep in general, which is a lot of the sleep habits that we talk about a lot on this show. I do all the crazy sleep things. But it's one reason I am so in awe, people like Cynthia traveling all the time because I need all of my sleep stuff to sleep well. So, things like a dark cool room and studies have actually shown, for example, that light exposure specifically affects REM and temperature specifically affects REM. So, specifically in REM, our core body temperature drops. So, already in general, having a cool sleeping environment is important for sleep, but especially for REM, it can be really important keeping it dark.

Blackout curtains can be game changers. I remember when Gin used to host this show, I would talk about blackout curtains all the time. The way it was with Gin was basically like, I would talk about something ad nauseam for weeks, months, often years, and then finally she would try it and totally be onboard. I remember the day she tried blackout curtains and she was like, why did it take her so long to do this? So, blackout curtains can be amazing. Sleep masks can be amazing. Speaking of the cooling piece, I use a cooling mattress. I use the OOLER. You use a cooling mattress, right.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm embarrassed to admit to the community that I was gifted an OOLER. We like, complete quiet with sleep, and neither one of us could talk. It was just these consistent noises drive me crazy. And so, it was the noise, it wasn't the coldness. Like I appreciated and liked that. We both liked that. But we actually gave it to a family member who doesn't mind. I mean, I completely believe in them, and I think they're a wonderful option provided you don't mind the noise.

Melanie Avalon: How long ago was that?

Cynthia Thurlow: That was gifted to me in 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm just wondering if it's their newest one.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm assuming they probably have consistently but I have friends who love theirs. They were like, oh my God, you're going to love it. And after a week we're like, no, [laughs] but I do keep my house very cold at night so that definitely helps.

Melanie Avalon: I will say the one thing when I travel, of the rare occasions, the thing I miss the most is the OOLER because it is a game changer for me. It's amazing because noise aside, I wear earplugs and I don't hear anything with those, I will make a recommendation because it can be hard to find earplugs, especially for women if you have small ears. It's the Howard Leight spelled, I don't know if that's how you say it, spelled L-E-I-G-H-T. Women earplugs. They're pink. I've been using these for years, years, years, years, and they are amazing. So, we can put a link to those in the show notes. But, yeah, when I travel, the heat retention, like all of that heat building up in the covers, I just feel like I'm suffocating and what's really cool about the cooling mattress is you're not freezing. It's not uncomfortable. It just basically really pulls the heat out of your body that's building up.

So, you still get to use the covers and feel all warm and snugly, but the heat is not building up. I just find it a game changer for me. And then, some of the other things for sleep, well, obviously nice sleep habits like hygiene, winding down every night, turning off social media. I use red lights to light my apartment. This is something I always leave out of my sleep routine. And I should remember to say it more. On YouTube I love the Hertz Therapies that they have. I play this one called it sounds really woo-woo, but it's called Love Energy Open Heart Chakra. But it's 528 Hz frequency. I just play that and it plays for a long time. It's like a two-hour track. And then it typically just goes into other tracks that are also playing similar things and having that ambient sound that is that therapeutic hertz sound is incredible for me for winding down.

The power of sound, I don't think can be underestimated with its digital health effects, can't be overestimated. [laughs] And then just some last few quick things going back to specifically REM sleep, alcohol has been shown to delay REM sleep and lead to less REM sleep overall. Drinking right before bed probably not a good idea. Marijuana use increases deep sleep, but it can reduce REM sleep, which I realized I never said what REM stands for. It stands for rapid eye movement, which people are probably familiar with it's because people's eyes move back and forth rapidly during REM sleep. And then also caffeine can have an effect. So, if you're having caffeine close to bed, it can potentially invert your sleep cycle, which is kind of crazy. It can actually make REM happen earlier and slow wave happen later. So that's really interesting to me. This is really important. So, obviously, we always want to be focusing on sleep quality. This also might be a thing where sleep quantity is also really important.

I just really want people to focus on sleep quality in general, but REM does occur during the last couple of hours of sleep, so it's a thing where if you are getting just quantity wise less sleep, you're not giving yourself ample time to even get to REM sleep and get enough of it. So, it's something where it actually really is important. Like time in bed might be really important. And then to circle back to what I was talking about in the beginning, magnesium. GABA is really, really important for sleep, as is magnesium in supporting that process. And then magnesium, just as a standalone, it's been shown to be calming, relaxing, to support sleep. So, magnesium in general does this. And then like I was saying before, magnesium threonate is if you want one type of magnesium to really really support sleep, you really want magnesium threonate.

It's going to cross the brain and it's going to help induce sleep and have a relaxing effect, especially for people who are struggling to fall asleep and not wanting to deal with pharmaceuticals and things like that. This can be a really powerful supplement to support your sleep. I say it's natural. It is modified to be in that form. Like, we make it to be in that form to cross the blood-brain barrier. But it is magnesium, it's not like a pharmaceutical. So, like I was talking about in the beginning, if you're listening today, it's your last chance to get 15% off my Magnesium Nightcap, which is the magnesium threonate, just use the code NIGHTCAP15 at avalonx.us. If you're one of the lucky people that got the launch special from my Magnesium 8, which is my full spectrum broad blend, they'll have a 25% off code that they were uniquely emailed. If you're listening past the 17th, use the code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off. Or if you want a 20% off code, sorry for all the codes, text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. Okay, that was a lot about sleep. Cynthia, what are your thoughts on REM?

Cynthia Thurlow: When it comes to sleep support? There's a lot I remind my patients to be thinking about sleep when they wake up in the morning. We know that even if you're not tracking sleep, it's helpful to just kind of lean into a lifestyle. A lot of things that Melanie did a really nice job explaining. Getting sunlight on your retinas, getting sunlight on your eyes first thing in the morning, usually within the first hour, getting five to ten minutes. You can sit outside and drink your coffee, walk your dogs, etc. That can be very beneficial. It helps suppress melatonin and increase cortisol. I think about the things that are lifestyle mediated, so getting physical activity every day, all of us would probably agree if we're sedentary all day long, you're not going to get as good as sleep. Our bodies are conditioned to move, even if that means you do water aerobics or you do Zone 2 training and just walk. Definitely very beneficial. In fact, sometimes I feel like my less intense workouts are the ones that help me sleep best.

In terms of things that I think are the greatest needle movers at night, I would concur a cold dark room. I wear a silk sleep mask every night. It's not sexy, but guess what? Light exposure on your eyes in the middle of the night can actually cause some wakening up. I think for many women, they sleep really well until 35, 40, and then all of a sudden, sleep starts to become a little bit more elusive, and you start to think about hormonal fluctuations, things that are changing in the body, less progesterone, which can impact sleep quality, certainly onset of sleep, certainly anxiety and depression, waking up anxious, waking up with your heart pounding. So, before I talk more about lifestyle things, I want to just mention if you're 35 or 40 and you're starting to see your sleep quality erode or you're 45 or 50 and you've been there for a long time, get your hormones checked.

Progesterone can be life-changing for a lot of people. Actually, I'm in the midst of doing a program through A4M and they validate a lot of things that I tell women. Oral progesterone is going to be sedating. It's going to help with sleep onset. It upregulates GABA, it upregulates this inhibitory neurotransmitter, which can be very, very helpful for sleep onset. The other piece is for a lot of women, and there's still a great deal of fear-mongering about hormones in general. I do find that for those that it's appropriate for, estradiol replacement can help with sleep duration. So, you fall asleep with progesterone and all the lifestyle things and then estrogen can help with kind of buffering that waking up in the middle of the night.

The other thing I would say is, if you're waking up and you're not getting good sleep quality and your REM and deep sleep are not ideal based on WHOOP band data Oura Ring data, I start to think about is it a blood sugar issue. There are a lot of women who are not insulin sensitive in their perimenopausal years into menopause. Glucometer CGMs can be very helpful for teasing out what's going on in addition to HRT. And then in terms of supplements, the supplement that has made the biggest net impact in my sleep quality is Myo-inositol. I know that we talked about that a few weeks ago when Scott and I did a podcast. It really has made such a huge impact and we know that helps with sleep architecture, both with falling and staying asleep.

It's actually part of Dr. Huberman's Labs, Andrew Huberman's Sleep Stack, which I think says a lot. It works for men and women, but that in and of itself, it also helps with insulin sensitivity, helps upregulate GABA, dopamine, serotonin, all these neurotransmitters that can help us fall asleep. And then beyond that, I would say, if appropriate melatonin could be very, very helpful for sleep. When I look at my sleep metrics on my Oura, and so I've been able to track two years' worth of metrics. The things that have been the needle movers are the things that Melanie and I have kind of talked about, but also the use of HRT and Myo-inositol for me personally I would say. I would also kind of tag in there other things that are helpful, soaking in magnesium. Usually, I do a magnesium soak, you can soak your feet, soak your body. There are ways to increase the absorption of magnesium through your skin.

I think many people remember I've talked extensively about the fact that I have this whole arrhythmia background in cardiology. And so, we were constantly tinkering magnesium levels, potassium levels with patients to lessen the likelihood they would go back into arrhythmias, dysrhythmias, etc. And so, magnesium is really important. There're different types of magnesium, as I know Melanie has talked about, but I like to use transdermal magnesium. The product Ancient Minerals does a nice job. I have no affiliation with them. They just have a nice high-quality product. You can buy it on Amazon.

Taking oral magnesium, I think can be very very helpful. I have like a sleep stack with Myo-inositol and then also magnesium L-threonate because that crosses the blood-brain barrier. But I would say those are good things to start with. But if you don't have great sleep metrics, I think it's more important that you reflect on how you feel and not get caught up in the metrics because I think some people live and die by their data and I just kind of look at it and go, oh, that's great. I had 3 hours of REM sleep, I had two and a half hours of deep sleep, that's fantastic. That's really good, especially for someone at my stage of life. But I think kind of being cognizant of the things that are going to be the big needle movers are important, but don't get caught up in the metrics. Just like, I would say that people shouldn't get caught up, like if they have a blood sugar spike on a CGM, like, you just look at and go, okay, that's good data to have. Let's not do that again. So, I think that that could be very helpful.

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Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you touched on so many good things. I'm so glad you brought in all of the physical activity piece, so much of supporting sleep at night is like being active during the day and with the early light exposure. I'm so glad as well what you just said, I think is so important because I think there's one thing that's really going to not help your sleep. It's going to be really stressing about your sleep. Ironically, all of this self-data quantification can sometimes have the effect of not helping because people are so stressed about the numbers. So, a reason I do like Oura's, I feel like it's very encouraging in how it talks to you. It doesn't really make me stressed. I was worried that it was going to make me stressed about things sleep wise, but it really doesn't seem to have that effect on me. I will say if there is like a crazy night where I know that it's going to be really bad and I have to do something the next day, which is a rare occasion, but it does happen. I just don't look-- Mostly this is like traveling, I just don't look at it that day. And then I did think of like two other things that made me think of, so I recently posted actually a poll on my Instagram about what were people's favorite sleep hacks. I wish I could remember what the results were. People did really like different supplements, sleep remedy. So, Dr. Kirk Parsley's sleep remedy is really amazing. That's the one supplement where people where when they did that poll, they were like messaging me that one specifically.

It's basically a combination of different, all-natural precursors to what your brain needs to fall asleep. It works synergistically to help you fall asleep. So, definitely check that out. You can go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy, the code MELANIEAVALON will get you a discount. And then also going back to the alcohol piece, I do think it's really important. I can't emphasize enough the importance of, if you are drinking alcohol to drink like, Dry Farm Wines. It's funny because people will say, I actually had this conversation on Instagram with somebody the other day.

They made a black and white blanket statement like; you can't sleep well and drink alcohol. I know for me that's not a true statement because if I drink Dry Farm Wines minimal to moderate consumption, not directly before bed, I sleep fine. Like, I can see it on my Oura Ring. I think if you are drinking alcohol, doing it in a way that is not detrimental to your sleep. Not drinking right before bed and a lot of the conventional alcohol and wine in the US is just not good. It's high in sugar, high in alcohol, high in additives. I've said this a lot. But if the wine is making your teeth red, that is not from the grapes. That is because there is a dye added to the wine called Mega Purple.

So, we do not want this stuff in our body and I think it can have a pretty detrimental effect on our health. That's why I personally love dry farm wines. They are low sugar, low alcohol, and I found that having them I can sleep well, I can have my drink and drink it too. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that will get you a bottle for a penny, which is awesome. Anything else about the sleep thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think we've got it. Do we have time for one more?

Melanie Avalon: Or we could share our announcement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: How should we share the announcement? We did not plan this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Maybe I'll just say it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Melanie knows what I'm going to share next, but I preemptively want to thank Melanie and Gin and the IF podcast team and the IF podcast community for an amazing last 10 months of being a cohost and welcoming me so graciously and so openly. My business is kind of shifting in a different direction and so I will be stepping down from the cohosting duties with IF podcast at the end of April. And we already have another cohost and I'm going to let Melanie share that news next week. But I wanted to make sure that listeners heard it from me directly. I haven't talked about it on social media, I won't talk about it on social media until after the announcement comes out, but I want to just wholeheartedly thank everyone for so much love and support. My team and I have been really overwhelmed with wonderful messages and lots and lots of support and it's been a really fun last 10 months.

Melanie Avalon: I know that's a big announcement for listeners, but I just wanted to emphasize how wonderful this whole journey has been. I feel like it really took the show in a new direction. I so love the-- Well, first of all, our friendship. I really appreciate your support and friendship and everything and so it was just really thrilling to do the show together. I really love the clinical perspective that you have brought to everything. I feel like we had a lot of questions building up that, honestly, we just wouldn't really touch on the show because prior to you being on the show, we didn't have knowledge or expertise to really talk about all of these things that women experience so much with their hormonal issues and perimenopause and menopause and all of this stuff. So, it was really exciting to really be able to provide that resource to listeners. I just really want to thank you for everything that you brought to the show. It's been really amazing. You'll be so missed, but it'll be open door. You'll have to come back for like a reunion episode at some point.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I would love that. I hope listeners know that Melanie and I are genuinely good friends and super supportive of one another and none of that will change. That was one of the first things I said to Melanie when I shared this news that this is not a breakup. This is just a pause. I know that the new cohost, I was really delighted to hear who the new cohost would be. I think you all will be very, very pleased with who this is. I'm not going to give any more details than that because it's not my place to share, but I wanted to make sure that everyone knew this is not a breakup. This is just a pause. I think that one thing I've learned in the past two years is that I have to really hold true to the direction my business is going in, and I think with the book last year, things were a whirlwind, a wonderful whirlwind.

But now things have kind of settled back down. It's like, okay, what are the things I need to be focusing in on? My kiddos are getting older and I have one who will be heading to college, gosh, in just over a little bit of a year and another in three and a half years, so getting really deliberate with my time. But thank you, Melanie. It's been such a pleasure to be able to cohost with you and be able to interact with these amazing, amazing listeners and community that you and Gin built.

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. Thank you, really. I was thinking about it just now with Gin, she's not really in the biohacking sphere, so she has her fasting community, but it's a massive community. It's more a bubble that I'm not in quite as much because it's a slightly different audience, whereas I think you and I were in a very similar audience. The point of that is I think we're going to be talking all the time and we'll be running into each other probably a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. That's what we keep saying eventually we're going to meet in person, but that hasn't happened yet. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure we will in some conference or something. I need to start going to things more.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, you do.

Melanie Avalon: I'm working on it. [laughs] Give me your travel skills, please.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, I love to travel. Let's just put it this way. We have a trip coming up next week and then I have another trip right after for business. And I'm always planning the next trip. Like, I just planned a trip for next November for my family, like, over a long weekend. It's like, that's just my mentality. It's like, let's keep traveling. So, it's fun.

Melanie Avalon: I'm very jealous like I said. If I didn't have the stress aspect that I get with disrupting my life because I love actually being at the places, it's like everything surrounding it. So yeah, listeners, stay tuned. Hopefully, if you're on the email list, you might have actually already received the announcement about the new cohost, but make sure you get on our email list. If not, you can get on that at ifodcast.com for listeners. You can get everything that we talked about in today's show in the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode213. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. They will have links to everything that we talked about. We talked about a lot of things, so that will be very, very important. You can submit your own questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or going to ifpodcast.com and submitting questions there.

Like I said, we're not mentioning the cohost now, but I do think it's out there. If you already know who the cohost is and you'd like to submit specific questions for that person, feel free to do so. Yeah, I think that is all the things. Oh yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and we are @ifpodcast. So okie-dokie. Well, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. See you on our last episode.

Melanie Avalon: I know, crazy. Well, I will see you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 26

Episode 310: Inositol, Improved Sleep, Cell Metabolism, DNA Repair, Brain Health, Electrolyte Balance, Glucose Control, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

3:45 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

8:10 - what is inositol?

11:25 - sugar alcohol

13:05 - does it break a fast?

18:05 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

20:50 - the importance of sleep

23:00 - DNA repair and cell metabolism; Nerve Health

29:20 - choline

31:45 - Brain health, Dopamine, Serotonin

35:00 - insulin resistance in the brain

38:30 - exogenous sources of inositol

40:45 - magnesium and electrolyte balance

44:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

47:15 - why this supplement? why now?

52:40 - L-Theonine and anxiety

53:20 - Metabolic Health

55:00 - MD Logic

Get 25% off during the Presale 03/11-03-19 or 15% off between 03/20-03/31 at cynthiathurlow.com/insolitol!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes for free. Yes, completely free. The more I do research, the more health books I read, the more people I interview something keeps coming up again and again and that is the importance of electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body. This includes the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you don't have your electrolytes in line, best case scenario, you're not going to perform at your best. Worst case scenario, you're going to feel pretty awful. When your electrolytes are out of balance, you can experience things like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and many other unpleasant symptoms. How do we lose electrolytes? Well, when you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. Athletes can lose up to 7 grams per day. Also, when people go on keto diets, that also often results in depleted electrolytes, and may be responsible for something called the, "keto flu."

Also, if you're not feeling well while fasting, that could be a problem with electrolytes. But here's the other problem on top of the electrolyte problem. Most of the electrolyte mixes on the market are nothing I would personally want to put in my body. Thankfully, I found LMNT. LMNT has none of the junk, no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS. It contains a science-packed electrolyte ratio of 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, 60 mg of magnesium. LMNT is used by everyone from NBA, NFL, and NHL players to Olympic athletes to Navy SEALS to exercise enthusiasts to everyday moms and dads to people like me, and potentially you. The experience I've had of being electrolyte depleted and then having an LMNT packet was like the feeling of coming alive. Like, "Oh, the lights just turned on." It truly is incredible.

Friends, I work with a lot of brands. LMNT is one of the brands where people randomly just tell me all the time how obsessed they are. LMNT offers no questions asked refunds, so you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back, no questions asked. You have nothing to lose. Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single-serving packets free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash ifpodcast. Stay salty.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Today I am joined by my dear friend Scott Emmens. Scott is the CEO and founder of MD Logic Health and today we are going to discuss my latest supplement Myo-inositol. Scott, I'm really excited to have this conversation today about Inositol.

Scott Emmens: I am too, Cynthia. I have to say, this molecule, although I've known about it for quite some time. As I did the research for this, really opened my eyes up to it. So, I'm thrilled to have it. My first question for you is when you decided to make your next supplement, Inositol, what was it that made you choose Inositol? For the audience, what is Inositol?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's important to be fully transparent and share with everyone that sleep over the last eight to ten years has been elusive in many instances. And so, I'm always looking for ways to improve my quality of sleep to ensure that I am getting restful sleep. I mean, now I track my metrics on my Oura Ring. But about a year and a half ago, I was already aware of Myo-inositol, which is a specific type of Inositol, which we'll talk about in a second, and I decided to just guinea pig. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take this before bed. I'm going to see what net impact it has on my sleep." This is the experimentation of the N of 1, the power of how important that is, and what I found is when I woke up in the morning, I didn't just feel more rested. My sleep metrics absolutely recorded deeper and longer deep sleep. For anyone that is familiarized with deep and REM sleep, they both have different purposes. One is really focused on brain health, the other one is really focused on bodily health. But as we are getting older, it sometimes can be more challenging to get high-quality deep and REM sleep. Over the course of about six months, I was able to adjust dosages, timing. I started including it in a lot of my treatment protocols, with my own patients and clients. Happily, the N of 1 became N of 20 or 30. From there I started talking more about it.

If we're talking specifically about this particular form of Inositol, Myo-inositol is a type of sugar alcohol. It's actually the most abundant Inositol in the body making up 95% of free Inositol. It's found within cell membranes. It's sometimes referred to as a vitamin although that's really a misnomer, vitamin B8. It's not a true vitamin because our bodies can actually make Myo-inositol and we can sometimes get it from foods in our diets, whether it's fruits and nuts and grains and beans. But we'll discuss later why some people may not be able to extract a lot of inositol from their foods.

We know that it acts as a signaling agent. It's not just about brain health. We know it can actually help with blood sugar, which for most of our listeners, talking about metabolic health is obviously a huge focus of my work. And then, interestingly enough, it's also a nootropic agent. It helps the brain with cell signaling. To me, the more I learned about it was not just a supplement for women with PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, although the research is really solid in that area. But it's a supplement that I've seen really compelling clinical results from patients not just with improvement in blood sugar, but also improvement in cognition and sleep quality. That's really the basis of the supplements that we're working on together, is to make sure that they are focused in these areas, which are the areas I think most of our listeners are concerned about as well.

Scott Emmens: That alone is quite a list of things that [Cynthia laughs] this particular supplement can address. But there are more, which is interesting. To take a step back, you mentioned that it's a sugar alcohol. For our keto friends and people that are wondering, well, how does something that has sugar alcohol in it, how does that support metabolic health? Articulate or walk the audience through how that works.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's not the sugar alcohol that we're thinking of that's contrived in a lab per se, that we're trying to increase the sweetness of a product and make it keto friendly. This is really speaking to the ability to move glucose into the cell so intracellularly and the stimulation of specific mechanisms in the cell, there's this GLUT4 translocation, which is a fancy way of saying "It's going to make it much more readily accepted into the cell." We know if only 7% of the population right now is metabolically flexible, this is something that most if not all of us want to be concerned about.

The other thing that's interesting is it can actually play a role in regulating the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue. This can be impactful if we are fasting and in a fasted state, we are trying to utilize either stored sugar or stored free fatty acids as a fuel source, it's going to help facilitate that by keeping our insulin levels a bit lower. Then, interestingly enough, it can actually promote the conversion from glucose to glycogen. Glycogen is stored sugar and so we store glycogen in our skeletal muscle and our livers, hopefully not too much of it, so that we end up developing something called NAFLD or nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. But there're several different mechanisms that can help with insulin sensitivity that are of particular interest to me. For those of us that are out there that are metabolically flexible, it can be very effective to help with maintaining insulin sensitivity. For those that are actively working on improving their metabolic health can be useful as well.

Scott Emmens: A couple of things there that I just wanted to circle back on. First is when we talk about sugar and the fasting, we're going to get questions on, does this break my fast? So, I guess that's question one. Would Inositol technically break your fast given that it is actually working to pull in the sugar? What are your thoughts there? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting. I think it's always in the context of what is the greatest value. From my perspective, if we are going from maybe let's say our blood sugar is within a healthy range and we take Inositol in a fasted state, I'm more concerned about making sure that you are maintaining this insulin sensitivity than I am about-- the concerns and I know it gets very granular, very nuanced. I know that I would say 50% of the questions that my team and I field on social media on a given day is related to does X break my fast? Typically, I take Inositol in the evening, usually at the tail end of my feeding window. That's when I will take it. But I have plenty of patients as an example that have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome and if you look at the clinical research the recommendation is usually 2 grams twice a day. So, very likely they are taking their Inositol in a fasted state and in a fed state. I think it really comes down to what are your goals.

From my perspective, this is one of those gray areas. I'm completely comfortable with my patients taking this in a fasted state and not worrying about whether or not this is breaking a clean fast. This is very different than someone taking, let's just say, one of the keto sweeteners in something in a fasted state and wondering what's going on. This is actually helping to improve that insulin sensitivity. So, for me, I'm less concerned about it.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that's the perfect response for folks to make it clear that this is an individual need. What are you taking it for specifically? What's the core reason you're taking it? And then you can determine when you're taking it. But I think the benefit of when you take it in a fasted state, given, let's use the PCOS example, might be a fasted state is a perfectly valid and more important reason to take it than worry about whether it's going to have a minor impact on your fast or not. I think it really does come down to individual choices, individual specific goals.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think for a lot of people when they're getting nuanced about does X item beverage supplement break my fast? The bigger question is, are you insulin sensitive? Are you metabolically healthy? If you are, I'm less concerned about what you are. These little tiny little choices that you're making as opposed to someone who may be new to intermittent fasting, maybe new to these kinds of products, maybe has been quite sedentary, has 25, 50 pounds to lose? Then we have to get much more deliberate. These are individuals that likely would benefit from a bit more than opposed to a little bit less. But with that being said, it's always in the context of what are your goals, what are your metabolic health threshold at this point in time and you can make adjustments.

Scott Emmens: I think the key there is if metabolic health is what you're seeking, then that is the key. If you are metabolically flexible and healthy, breaking the fast with minor things here and there are not going to make much of a difference. But what will make it much more, in my opinion you could disagree, is that your metabolic health and overall flexibility is going to be a much more important factor long term than whether you're stuck to your fast precisely or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think this is a good time to just interject that sometimes we get caught up in the little details when in essence we should be flying at 30,000 feet or we're kind of looking down on collectively, what are all the choices we're making throughout the day, throughout the week and what net impact? How is your sleep? How are you managing your stress? Are you lifting weights? Are you eating a nutrient-dense, whole-food diet, which could look a little different for everyone? Are you eating enough protein? Are you satiated? Those things to me as a rule are, they take precedence over one supplement? It's not to ignore the questions that I know will be forthcoming with regard to this. But just keeping your eye on the big picture as opposed to worrying about little bits of minutiae. Sometimes we'll get questions on social media about a particular type of tea or a particular type of coffee, and we'll say. let's look at the ingredient list, let's educate ourselves, what could be contributing to what your concern is about? but I think sometimes people get fixated on one thing and they're not looking at the big picture.

Scott Emmens: Agreed. And sleep is a great example. If you don't get sufficient sleep, you are going to have metabolic insufficiencies or perhaps your blood sugar will spike. And you'll crave sweet food and that's been proven time and time again. If you're sleep deprived, especially over a long period of time, even one day, frankly, but you go less than 6 hours of sleep, you're going to have impacts on your blood sugar that are not going to be positive. So, everything matters. All of those things combined to your point, I think, is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of your metabolic flexibility and health.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get $30 off one of my favorite tools to help people lose weight. So, losing weight involves your body going through changes. If you want to do it the right way, you need to be able to see exactly what is happening inside your body. NutriSense lets you do that. NutriSense provides access to continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. I know you guys have heard us talk about CGMs all the time. They give you 24/7 real-time glucose data aka blood sugar. So, you can see how your body responds to different foods, as well as exercise, stress, and sleep. The NutriSense program can help you lose weight without making you feel like you have to make sacrifices. That's because once you're able to see the real impact that certain foods have on your body, you'll be empowered to make better choices and have more control over what you eat.

With NutriSense, you also get access to a registered dietitian who can help you interpret your data and come up with a personalized plan that's based on your data that will really work for you. The dietitian support and community of members will keep you motivated and accountable in your journey. Over time, you will start to see a noticeable difference in how you look and feel. Your clothes will feel better, you'll feel more active throughout the day, and feel confident when you look in the mirror. People who have spent years feeling frustrated because they weren't able to lose weight are now on their journey towards healthy and sustainable weight loss with NutriSense. If you're trying to lose weight and overcome your plateau in a healthy way, this is the program for you. If you're curious how it works, a continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. Application is easy and painless.

Friends, just look at my Instagram, I have done so many videos showing how to put them on. You really, really don't feel it. Then there's the NutriSense app. You can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiences, and so much more. You get expert dietitian guidance. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They will guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs including fasting. Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Every single person I personally introduced to using a NutriSense CGM has inevitably come back and told me just how cool it is, how incredibly eye opening, and how it is truly changing the way they view food and their health. You guys will love it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it goes without saying that when we're talking about sleep, I always like to mention sleep is foundational to our health. If you're not getting a quality sleep, everything else is secondary to that. Don't overfast or don't fast at all if you can't figure out why you're not sleeping well. There're so many women, in particular, I don't want to pick on women, but I know for myself, the first couple of years I was in perimenopause, my sleep, it was like an art form. I had to figure out the right things I needed to do to get myself to sleep through the night. But to your point, we know even one night of sleep can be detrimental to our metabolic health, can contribute to insulin resistance, will raise cortisol, will cause us to want to eat junk and not broccoli and chicken. Just understanding that if you're not sleeping well, that's the first thing to work on before you even worry about anything else get your sleep dialed in, figure out why you're not sleeping, and then fit all the other pieces into the puzzle.

Scott Emmens: One of the things I like about Inositol is not only that it helps with your deep sleep, but it helps with your entire sleep structure, meaning each phase, you'd mentioned the various phases and it helps with structuring that sleep so that you get a perfect balance. I shouldn't say perfect, but a better balance, an improved balance that was really interesting to me. I guess we could move on into mechanisms of action into the cell.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. When we're talking about how Myo-inositol and I know that's a bit of a mouthful, so maybe for listeners I'm going to just say Inositol. But the product that we are talking about is Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: In the supplement world, if you see Inositol, that is Myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Generally, yes.

Scott Emmens: 99% of the time if it says just Inositol, that's going to be Myo-inositol. The other most common is D-chiro-inositol, and there's reasons that you don't necessarily want to use it, and if you do it has to be in a very precise amount and it's probably best off to start with Myo-inositol, just by itself for a lot of clinical reasons, but Inositol pretty much means Myo-inositol unless it says D-chiro and that's a totally different [unintelligible [00:22:53], which you got to be very careful with.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, so, such a good point. When we're talking about our cells, we know that it plays a role in DNA repair. As we're getting older, we are more likely to be having issues with our mitochondria which are effectively the powerhouses of our cells. DNA repair, it's absolutely essential for that. It helps regulate cell metabolism. Again, these are kind of nerdy little caveats but really important to understand that this supplement in particular is working at the cellular level and not just kind of these extraneous topics. We know it's very important for the component of the cell membrane. Our cell membranes are important for communication between cells and so understanding that as we are getting older, as things are maybe not working as efficiently. This is why I really like the idea of using Inositol in conjunction with fasting whether you're taking this at the tail end of your feeding window or incorporating it throughout your day, understanding that at a very basic level, this can help your cells become more efficient, have more energy, be able to improve communication between cells, which, the older I get, the more I think about things on a bit more detailed level because I realize how humbling is to understand how our bodies work effectively.

Scott Emmens: Truly. I mean our bodies are a miracle if you think about it. How many different things have to go right for your body to work? It's amazing we can get up in the morning sometimes.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: True, very true. [laughs]

Scott Emmens: Component of the cell membrane and the cell membrane is typically like the fatty layer around that and mitochondria have their own cell membrane as well, correct?

Cynthia Thurlow: They do, they do. So, this phospholipid bi-layering and this is why things that we're exposed to our environment, our personal care products, our food, can all impact this in positive or negative ways. Understanding that we are contributing to components that are going to make this protective layer more effective and allow it to be optimized is certainly very exciting.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. We know that mitochondrial health leads to so many other things too including brain health, so, excellent. Now, the number of things that Inositol, Myo-inositol we're speaking about in particular, and we'll just say Inositol to keep it easy [Cynthia laughs] but it's all when we say Inositol, we're saying Myo-inositol. The amount of things that this product has been clinically studied for in the brain and then the amount of new and upcoming research really blew me away.

I had known about Inositol for many years. I've known many people that have taken it, but when I started to get into the research, as you and I were preparing the product and preparing this podcast, I just was really blown away by the amount of influence this could have on your mood, on your cognition, on the speed of your brain, on your sleep architecture. Let's talk about the things in the brain and why do you think it works there and why that's so important, and what are the core key things that are provable that we can stand behind the clinical data on?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, we know Inositol is very effective with brain signaling. Again, as we've already talked about, it's a component of our cellular membranes. Starting with protection of the blood-brain barrier being a previous ER nurse, there are specific substances that can cross the blood-brain barrier and others that cannot. Now that we understand a whole lot more about the gut microbiome and the interrelationship between leaky gut, leaky brain, understanding that Inositol can beneficial in helping to strengthen that blood-brain barrier.

The blood-brain barrier is designed to protect us, but in many instances, due to lifestyle, personal care choices, etc., can weaken this and can allow us to absorb substances into the brain that do not belong. I also think about neuroplasticity, which is this concept where it allows us to create new neural pathways. But it's also particularly beneficial with commonly recognized neurotransmitters like dopamine, acetylcholine, GABA, and serotonin, understanding that it can strengthen and improve these specific neurotransmitter pathways as well as communication between the neurotransmitters.

I think about glutamic acid or glutamate and GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter, and glutamate is this excitatory neurotransmitter and making sure that we're influencing the right neurotransmitter at the right time. You don't want to be stimulated when you're trying to go to bed. You want to have this inhibitory communication with GABA in particular. I also think about assisting and regulating sodium levels. We talk a lot about electrolytes on this podcast and how important they are knowing that Inositol is involved in the regulation of sodium. There's a sodium-potassium pump in the body across these cellular membranes and this in and of itself helps with maintenance of myelin sheaths that protect our neurons. Down to regulating electrolytes, but also protecting the fatty myelin sheath that allows for proper transmission impulses in between different brain cells I found particularly interesting.

Scott Emmens: I would have to agree. I'll start there but there were a lot of things I want to unpack with that one. So, the myelin sheaths to bring it into layman's terms are like the rubber around an electric cord and that rubber around electric cords keeps other electric cords from touching each other and shorting out. I think it was ALD, which was a nerve disease. The movie Lorenzo's Oil, do you remember that movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Scott Emmens: And his son had that disease. I might be getting the acronyms wrong or the verbiage wrong, but it was basically a disease of the myelin sheaths not being properly built. So, your myelin sheaths are so important because if they're not created well in your brain, then your neurons don't-- even if you have the neurons, but the myelin sheaths are brittle or not connected, you can have little shorts, little skips, and your cognition can decline.

That goes for all of your nerves, right? You've got to have really good myelin sheaths, which also goes back to the point on that bilipid layer that protects the cell. That's like a myelin sheath for the cell, different mechanism, but you've got to prevent those short circuits. That's really important for brain health and overall function cognition. So, I found that fascinating. The other thing, just to tap into it, as you had mentioned how it works with choline, etc. There was a study I read that choline in combination with Myo-inositol, is also beneficial.

Now, choline in itself is really good for your brain if you're not getting enough in your diet, so that's something we can talk about down the road. I do take choline every day with Myo-inositol, with my black coffee. By the way, it does sweeten my coffee just the smidge. it's not like sugar, but just a tiny little sweet taste. It's really made my black coffee more pleasurable.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's funny, after I was hospitalized four years ago, I remember I got out of the hospital and I craved red meat and I craved eggs. Eggs are rich in choline and I have eggs every single day, sometimes four or five at a time. I love that you're seeing this improvement in taking choline on a daily basis. The interrelationship with Inositol makes a great deal of sense. I also think about how Inositol can reduce inflammation by actually reducing pro-inflammatory cytokines. These inflammatory substances that we find in the body, some of which are inflammatory in terms of cytokines, others are not. And then also impacts thought processing. This was something that I tried to get really detailed about because I found this particularly interesting as we are getting older, especially women in particular, as we're losing estradiol, testosterone, and progesterone signaling in the brain that can impact how-- do we have brain fog, are we struggling with trying to find the words, understanding that thought processing as we're getting older can sometimes be mitigated by hormonal fluctuations? But understanding that there are things that we can include into our diet or supplement regimen that can help improve this. It's interesting that this one research article that I looked at, it was talking about how when serotonin and dopamine levels are not optimized, so these are two neurotransmitters. As these are not optimized, it can actually make anxiety and depression worse. This alone can impact cognition, memory and can contribute to some of the age-related decline that we see, but how the introduction of some of these lifestyle measures can make a huge net impact. Now I know for myself personally, I always say that I can accept a lot of things that are changing in my body as I'm getting older, but the brain piece I'm not willing to accept. So, I'm always trying to optimize and make sure I stay sharp. I have teenagers I have to stay on top of and running a business and just being a good human. And I'm curious for you, when you were doing your own research, what did you see that was specific to the neurotransmitter processing in the brain? Anything that you could add to that particular research that I had mentioned?

Scott Emmens: What I saw was similar to what you saw that it does enhance the brain's ability to maintain both the amount of dopamine and serotonin. But also, this part that you had mentioned, the neural pathways helping to support the growth of neural pathways. Well, if you can grow neural pathways faster when you're learning something new, to me that is a massive advantage because as we age, growing new neural pathways becomes pretty challenging. If you can do anything to help support that and I think that's why I like to take the choline with it along with other things that I think support that ability to grow neural pathways. I take a lot of things that have BDNF in them such as Lion's Mane, ginkgo biloba. They don't have BDNF in them. They help the body support its own BDNF.

Exercise, particularly aerobic exercise helps with BDNF, which is brain-derived neurotropic factor. Basically, that's your fertilizer for your brain to grow new neurons. That to me was a big one. But also, the speed with which and the balance which with the dopamine, serotonin and I think might have mentioned GABA in there as well. That sort of perfect balance, again, I use the word perfect. That improved balance to me was really the way that I was like, this is something I really feel like is going to be important for my long-term brain health. Because just like you, I can take-- I'm 52, my body's not going to bench press 300 pounds anymore. I'm okay with that. But I don't want my brain to decline to the point where I'm just two steps behind or feeling like I'm not 100%. I want my brain to get as healthy as it possibly can be because by the time I'm 80, right, whatever my baseline is now, it's not going to get better at 80. But If I can maintain it or make it a little better over the next couple of years and then maintain that for a while, I'm going to have a little bit more capacity as I age. To me, I think of all the things I worry about from a longevity health standpoint, it is 100% brain.

Cynthia Thurlow: One of the other really important/interesting distinctions about brain health as we are getting older is the potentiality of loss of insulin sensitivity and poor metabolic health. That understanding that at the basis of insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia is an upregulation and inflammation and oxidative stress which we know goes on to actually damage our neurons and our brains. Unfortunately, I think for many people, they don't understand the interrelationship that our brains in the latter stages of our lives 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond are made in our 40s and 50s. So, understanding how critically important metabolic health is not just to our bodies but also to our brains is so, so important.

Understanding that also maintaining insulin sensitivity can help with buffering these hormonal changes that are happening in women's brains and frankly men's brains as well. The number one reason why men are dealing with lowered testosterone levels is this loss of insulin sensitivity and also exposure to estrogen-mimicking chemicals as well as women as they're transitioning from perimenopause into menopause, they're losing estradiol signaling, progesterone signaling, testosterone signaling in the brain that can actually exacerbate underlying insulin resistance.

Scott Emmens: That's a serious problem. I have heard the type 3 diabetes analogy fairly often, actually came out of the diabetes world and at that point they were starting to use things like metformin and TZDs, which are insulin sensitizers for clinical trials and Alzheimer's. Now, I don't think those drugs were the right kind of drugs because they don't cross the blood-brain barrier. So, that's probably something to think about. But speaking of crossing the blood-brain barrier and these issues with keeping the cell structure intact, chemicals in our diet can actually make your blood-brain barrier more permeable and not in a good way. You want to make sure that you've got this, your blood-brain barrier, you're doing everything you can do to protect it because if it breaks down and negative chemicals get into the brain, you're going to have more death of neurons and keep your body in this constant state of inflammation that you just spoke about. That's another thing that in our diets there're a lot of different chemicals and additives and food additives that you don't even necessarily know are letting things penetrate your blood-brain barrier whether you're aware of that or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just even thinking, I did a great podcast with Jeffrey Smith, who's this incredible advocate that's doing amazing work educating people about the dangers of certain types of pesticides and herbicides like glyphosate. And understanding that glyphosate creates small intestine hyperpermeability aka leaky gut. Guess what? When you get a leaky gut, you got a leaky brain. Understanding that these things aren't entirely benign and just being conscientious, not feeling like you have to be fearful about your environment but just being informed, and understanding that things like grains, where you can get some exogenous sources of Inositol can also be challenging for the body to break down. I'm sure we'll probably talk about this, the role of phytic acid and exposure to these pesticides and herbicides that are designed to make, "Healthier crops," can actually lead to mineral issues, not being able to absorb as much minerals from the foods that we think we are, but also deal with some of the health implications of exposure to said herbicides and pesticides.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, we definitely have to talk about the phytic acid and natural exogenous sources of Inositol. Now, again, we had mentioned that the kidney and the liver make about 2 grams in the kidney and about a gram in liver. One of the studies I read, despite where it's made, the most concentration of Inositol is in your brain. Obviously, there's something that your brain needs with this natural body-producing compound that's critically important. Maybe it is time to get into the natural sources and why there are some issues there or did we skip something along the way?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting, we touched on the fact that you can get some exogenous, which means outside the body, sources from nuts and grains and beans and fruit. What's interesting, though, is that in particular to grains, phytic acid is a component of a cell wall of plant-based food that can actually impair mineral absorption in the body. You may ingest said food, but your body may not be able to fully optimize. The statistic I read last night was that the average diet allows for 720 milligrams a day found in grains and seeds, but can be as low as 250 milligrams or as high as 1600 milligrams depending on the foods consumed.

It's interesting because as I was looking at different philosophies of research, organ meats can be a great source. I know that organ meats for many people are either things they don't like the taste of, the flavor profile, the texture, trying to get these into the diet. But I thought it would be interesting to kind of identify some of the things that can reduce our ability to be able to extract Inositol from food. Number one was insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia. That was number one and again only 7% of the population actually is metabolically flexible, so that's important.

Low salt intake, we unfortunately have conditioned an entire generation of clinicians and humans that you want to have a low-sodium diet. It's really that you want a less processed diet. Most of the salt that people are consuming is iodized salt, which is a low-quality type of salt. It's not per se that we shouldn't have salts in our diet because I'll be the first person to say we need high-quality salt, but it's the quality of salt that we're consuming. Antibiotic use, I mean, how many people listening have been on multiple rounds of antibiotics? I certainly have had the benefits of needing to take antibiotics, but then understanding that that's largely impacted my entire body diffusely. Then, interestingly enough, caffeine intake, so especially coffee can reduce your endogenous stores of Myo-inositol which I thought was really interesting.

Scott Emmens: You're bumming me out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly and low magnesium. I'm always talking about magnesium anyway, but magnesium is critically important for the biosynthesis of Myo-inositol. Just get another reason why we need more magnesium replacement in our lives. You just can't get enough from eating organic foods or using a whiff of magnesium every day. I could go off on a whole magnesium tangent and my listeners know this, but those are just some of the ways that our modern-day lifestyles can impact our ability to create endogenous Myo-inositol and actually make it harder for us to keep our levels optimized in the body.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. I read the same thing and it was kind of shocking to me because, again, I've done a lot of research on magnesium. When I read that magnesium was essential, "What is magnesium not essential to?" It seems to be essential to just about everything in the body. To your point, magnesium is drawn out of you for so many different reasons. Sodium, same thing, sodium is drawn out of you. I hear in the summer, you're going to need a lot of sodium. Because you're going to sweat out a lot of sodium. If you're a completely sedentary person or you don't-- hot sports or saunas are not your thing, or you're not a big sweater. maybe you only need 2000 milligrams a day. If you're an athlete especially a competitive athlete, you're going to need probably a lot more than 2000 milligrams of, to your point, quality sodium not processed sodium that's put into your processed pizza or from the old-fashioned little blue bottle there. It's iodized salt. You want a good quality, high mineral, high-quality mixture salt. And there're lots available. Yes, those are two critically important things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting, there're over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body that utilize magnesium. This is just one of many examples of why low magnesium is going to impact all of these other processes. I'm the first person to say that when I was working in clinical cardiology, we would recommend transdermal. So, skin-absorbed magnesium and oral magnesium to be able to optimize levels. Just understanding that most magnesiums are not going to get you to where you need to be. More often than not, most people need two different ways of getting the magnesium in through the skin and then also orally.

Scott Emmens: I'm pretty tolerant of magnesium. I take a number of different kinds of magnesiums, different forms. One form I'm actually looking into a little bit more is magnesium chloride because it's already converted into an electrolyte. Whereas the other magnesium your body has to take it and convert it into magnesium chloride essentially to make it an "Electrolyte." I'm really looking at that as maybe the next thing I add to my diet. But magnesium in general, I take a lot of in a lot of different forms. I'll mix them up, but I want to get one foundational magnesium, which I take on a regular basis. I usually add a threonate or a gluconate or bisglycinate and I'm looking into actually two new kinds to potentially launch in the next few months. You can't get enough and there're all different forms.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because listeners will ask. I use Ancient Minerals. They have a spray that you can use, a spray oil, and also a lotion very efficacious. That's what we used in electrophysiology, which is a subsect of cardiology. Typically, you spray into two cupped hands, you rub on your trunk and your arms and legs, leave on for 20 minutes and shower off, very cost effective. You can get it on the Ancient Minerals website or even probably Amazon.

The other magnesium that I think is most efficacious for me personally is magnesium L-threonate. I take that in powdered formulation usually before bed. That is one of the very few formulations that will cross the blood-brain barrier. For me, it's all about relaxation, sleep support and those are probably the two I use the most of. I would say if anyone listening has magnesium oxide in their medicine cabinet, in their supplement drawer, you only absorb about 11%, it is worth throwing in the garbage. It is so poorly absorbed by the body. That was what we used to use in the hospital a lot until I knew better. I always like to share that as a pearl. If you have it, toss it, you don't get much out of it, and you're essentially creating expensive urine.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. The reason that-- So, almost every magnesium you see at Walgreens or your Rite Aid or your general pharmacy, 95% of those are going to be magnesium oxide.

Cynthia Thurlow: Which is crap.

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Cynthia Thurlow: Inevitably, there'll be lots of questions about why this supplement at this time. I think I've been very transparent that my focus for our collaborative work together is metabolic health, brain health, and certainly sleep support  because that's such a pain point for so many. I thought we could talk about a little bit of the indications for why this is the supplement that we chose to do now and then talk about dosing, and then talk about why MD Logic's standards are so high and how that has impacted the decision to kind of collaborate together. Just from a high-level perspective, 40% to 60% of perimenopausal and menopausal women have differing issues surrounding insomnia. Those are not my statistics, that's just statistics that I read. Overall, 10% to 30% of the overall population, both men and women, some as high as 50% to 60% by the second study I looked at. We know it's more commonly seen in women and I think a large amount of that is the fluctuations in progesterone, which oftentimes helps us fall asleep, and changes in estradiol, predominant form of estrogen as we're transitioning out of our cycling years into perimenopause helps us stay asleep.

There was an article, meta-analysis in Frontiers in Psychiatry that talked about in observational studies, there's a higher prevalence in women than men. I don't think we needed a study to confirm that just from talking to patients over the years. Certainly, a greater issue for women than men. And then understanding that Inositol helps us fall asleep and then if we wake up in the middle of the night, will allow us to fall asleep more easily. Even Huberman Lab talks about how Myo-inositol is part of his sleep stack. He uses it several times a week, just makes it part of his sleep stack. I love my own sleep stack, but this is an absolutely integral part of it. We know that Myo-inositol impacts serotonin levels which induces a sense of peace and calm, certainly the way that you want to be thinking as you're kind of heading off to bed, and then it also has direct communication with GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter that we find in the brain and can help support healthy function of the receptors there. Again, inhibitory neurotransmitter that we are positively impacting by the utilization and supplementation of Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, the number of things that it does for sleep is really remarkable as we talked about the faster onset of sleep, the higher quality of sleep, the sleep architecture, the ability to fall asleep if you wake up. And that's my problem. I can fall asleep, but I will inevitably wake up at 1 in the morning, thoughts racing, and 2 hours later I'm still looking at a podcast or something and I can't fall asleep. Now, I try not to take my phone to bed, but when I wake up at 1 in the morning, I'm like I need something to kind of soothe my brain back to sleep, so that's great. I have a sleep stack too, which now includes Myo-inositol and I also do my melatonin with that as well as I'm just recently experimenting with L-theanine, which I'm really liking. I haven't quite dialed in the right dosage yet or like timing, but I really like L-theanine both during the day as a cognitive enhancer with my coffee. It keeps me from getting jittery and kind of balance that caffeine out. I take one of our products along with it, which is a choline, Alpha GPC, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine blend. I take that along with L-theanine in the morning and then I take the L-theanine, the Inositol, and the melatonin at night. With that combo, I've been sleeping really well.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. It's interesting because I have found that if I take the Inositol every night it works better than just using it as needed. I do think there's some degree of cumulative effect. The therapeutic dose that I have found is 1 gram in the evening is very effective. If you look at research on polycystic ovarian syndrome or PCOS, you can definitely see therapeutic benefit from 2 grams twice a day. But obviously, if you're working with someone on your PCOS, an endocrinologist, a GYN, an integrative trained healthcare practitioner, they may have you on other items as well. So, definitely worth discussing with them. It's interesting, there was one research article that talked about dosing in menopause is 3 grams a night. I haven't experimented with that. But having said that, I think the nice thing is you can adjust. If I'm having a particularly stressful day, I may take 2 grams at night as opposed to 1 gram. I think a nice starting point is 1 gram. I do find that most of my patients do really well at that dose.

Scott Emmens: I've been doing about 3 grams and that's been the perfect amount.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sweet spot.

Scott Emmens: I take 1 gram in the day, 2 grams before bed. That seems to be my sweet spot, 4 grams seems a bit much, so I've kind of been balancing around 2 to 3 grams. One of the other things I wonder if it helps with sleep is and maybe this is because of the GABA, but it has been shown to reduce cravings for binge eating disorder. It's been shown to help in panic disorders. It's been shown to help with certain anxieties and OCDs. I just wonder if all of these also are contributing to the overall ability to sleep. If you have less anxiety, you're going to sleep better, or is that you're getting sleep, thus your anxiety is lower. Chicken and egg sort of thing. It just seems to be working across the spectrum of things that disrupt sleep.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think it's important just to understand that, as you mentioned the chicken or the egg, looking at it as what is contributing to the changes in sleep, for a lot of people, they're anxious by nature. It's hard to shut their brain off. Things like L-theanine as you mentioned and alluded to is a really nice amino acid. It's interesting we have components of L-theanine in green tea. We'd have to drink quite a bit to get enough L-theanine on board. That calming effect that you get from L-theanine that can be a nice adjunct to other types of sleep support. It would be remiss if we didn't at least touch quickly on metabolic health, I know we've talked a bit about it. We know only 7% of adults in the United States are metabolically healthy and fewer than one in 15 have optimal metabolic health. That means that you're not being treated for high blood pressure or elevated triglycerides. You don't have a waist circumference greater than 45 inches if you're a male, greater than 35 inches if you're a female. Means your fasting blood sugar is optimized, I like to say between 75 and 90, and you have appropriate levels of HDL. For women greater than 55, men greater than 45. Technically, the metabolic syndrome diagnosis is made when you have 3/5 of those.

We know that Myo-inositol can be helpful for insulin sensitizing. Then there's solid randomized controlled trials on this. We're not just sharing cherry-picking research. We're really looking at the research. It can effectively help to promote weight loss in conjunction with that. What I liked was there was one study that was talking about it can be used in conjunction with other medications like Glucophage, magnesium, progesterone in particular. You can utilize these concurrently. Again, if you're on any of these medications, talk to your prescribing provider. We're not providing medical advice. We're just providing guidance in terms of what the research is showing and it was interesting there was one article that talked about how utilizing Inositol with whey protein will help for better absorption. If you're not dairy intolerant like I am for a lot of other people, you could probably throw it in with a shake or make a protein pudding and know that you'll get better absorption from the whey utilization.

Scott Emmens: I did not read about that. But it's Interesting but now that I know coffee decreases Myo-inositol, I'm going to put 2 grams in my coffee in the morning.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: I think something that I think would be super helpful is to explain to listeners. We have this partnership together that we are co-collaborating on supplements. What is it about MD Logic that distinguishes your company from other companies on the market?

Scott Emmens: I think there're a couple of things. The first is what we've tried to do is a partner with people like yourself that have extremely high standards of what they are looking for. We don't do white label, which is private labeling, a product that you already make and then just putting someone else's name on it. That's not what we're about. We're about clinicians or people that are in the know that understand what they want in their supplement, what their customers want. That's the place we first start is who are the people we want to work with because we want to make sure that they are as committed to the quality as we are, that they're trying to do the best possible thing for their clients and patients because otherwise it would reflect negatively on us. So, that's where we start. It starts with the quality of who the client is that wants to create a supplement with us and then It goes through what we consider the gold standard of GMP.

Now, GMP has its baseline standards and many companies are GMP certified, but that doesn't mean they are GMP compliant. Meaning you can have a GMP facility that's had multiple violations over three to five years. I'm not suggesting that every company has to have a zero, never has had a GMP violation because they'll give you a violation for small things, potentially. When I say they that's the FDA. So, what we do is we start the process by looking at the ingredient itself, making sure that the ingredient itself, before it even comes onto the factory floor. Now, this is not necessarily what most companies do because you only legally have to test it at the end of the process. But we don't even want to bring the product into the door, into the quarantine facility where we make the products because if it's infected with mold or toxins, it could spill over to other things, so every product is tested for toxins, mold, heavy metals, purity, strength, and identity before it even gets into the facility.

Then what we do is we take that product and we create it in the perfect GMP process, which is, you have to make sure that the product is stored at a certain temperature. You have to make sure that you use certain specification sheets so even the documentation to make the product is important. We make sure that if we make what's called a variation from time to time or standard operating procedure that every one of those is filled out, that each process is followed, that the person in charge of the facility is following that SOP to the letter of the law, meaning if they say it has to be 6 inches above the ground, the product has to be stored 6 inches above the ground. All of our products are then stored and climate controlled. Then we send them out for testing. Some products we send out for third-party testing, but we do two in-house tests, which is, again we do all of those same things again at the end of the product. So, let's say we're making a combination product and we use seven ingredients. Well, after it goes through the whole process, you want to make sure of a couple of things. One, is it still as pure and clean as the day it arrived? And all of the strengths, purity and potency, and identity of those products what we said is in there.

So, if we said there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C, there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C. If we said there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, and then is it pure? Does it still have the same levels of heavy metal as when it came into the factory? Or did it get exposed to something? So, it gets tested before it comes in. We follow all of those other regulations because if you leave something on the floor, it could get wet and it gets moldy. So, what came in as clean is now on your floor. It gets moist because it's on the concrete slab, and then it might create mold. We do the testing at the very beginning, all four of the GMP plus heavy metals.

For certain products, we'll send out for additional testing, such as enzyme products. We'll test out to make sure that the SPUs of an enzyme are active that there's what we say, how many-- 125,000 for our serrapeptase for example. We send that out for third-party testing to make sure that's how many active enzymes are in each of those capsules. It's not just an internal test, it's also external. Now, some folks say, "Oh, we third party test, but that also means that they third party, they're paying another client and another entity that they don't know this facility and they don't know if they're doing their job correctly. It sounds great to do third-party testing, but unless you know that third party really well and you know they're following all GMP, you really want to have your own ownership and oversight to make sure that the lab assistants are doing that job properly.

So, we do both an internal and [unintelligible [00:59:35] we need to we'll send things out for third party, on occasion we'll send things out if we're like questioning the potential toxins of something. We'll send it out for additional screening for pesticides, for example. We go through a very rigorous process. At then at the end, we also test it for shelf stability. Every single step along the way before it gets into the consumer's hand, it's been a chain of custody tested across the board for strength, compliance, identity, toxins, heavy mold, etc. At the beginning, at the end and it's climate stored from that process from the beginning to the end.

The only part of that process we can't control is if it's in a UPS truck in California. There might be a couple of hours, but we test things to make sure that they can withstand that kind of temperature for a couple of hours. Whereas when you go to a mega warehouse, let's just say box stores and shipping stores, for example, you have no idea how long it's been sitting there. You have no idea if GMP has been filed through that process. We feel really good about the products we send out because the ingredients are what we say, the purity is what we say, the heavy metals are what we say. We pass all of those tests on the front and the backend. That's what we feel really good about.

And then we work really hard to make sure that the product we're delivering has the least amount of toxic things in it and is the best for the environment it can possibly be, and we're working more and more towards that with each new product. Now, we're a young company, so we inherited some of the products we have, but each time we [unintelligible [01:01:11] a product, we're taking out the steroids and the palmitates, making it in a glass bottle to reduce phthalates in the world and plastics in general. You and I could talk about plastics forever. We're really taking extraordinary efforts to make sure that the product that shows up at your door is the best possible quality you can get.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that. I talk all the time about how most pharmaceutical grade companies don't third-party source to Amazon. I think a lot of individuals are surprised to know that buying pharmaceutical grade supplements is really the way to go if you're going to choose to take a supplement, making sure that you're purchasing from a company that has such a rigorous set of standards for evaluation, transportation, and preservation of their products. Now, for listeners that are still listening and tuning in, want to be fully transparent and share that the presale for Myo-inositol or Inositol starts on March 11th through the 19th. You can get 25% off and you can go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/inositol. That's I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful. From March 20th to the 31st, you can get 15% off. So, obviously, you want to jump on board when it goes on sale and then understanding that you don't need a code for the presale that will get you directly to the discounted price. Again. www. cynthiathurlow.com/inositol I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful but it's fully worth it. Scott, always a pleasure to connect with you. Let my listeners how to connect with you outside of the podcast, how to reach you on social media or your website.

Scott Emmens: The best place to reach me is @longevityprotocol on Instagram or #collagenguru on TikTok if that's your thing. But primarily I don't do Facebook, so you won't find me there. If you would like to get a hold of me directly to talk to me specifically about anything, you can reach out to, let me be specific, mdlogichealth.com is our website. Reach out to us there, just say, "Hey, I'd like to speak to Scott Emmens" and our assistant will get you in touch with me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Great. Thanks so much again, Scott. It's always a pleasure connecting with you.

Scott Emmens: Cynthia, pleasure as always. Thank you so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks again for a wonderful podcast, Scott. Listeners can look for the show notes @ifpodcast.com/episode310 and submit questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or @ifpodcast.com. You can connect with us on social media. I am @cynthia_thurlow_ on Instagram or through my website, www.cynthiathurlow.com. And Scott may be reached at mdlogicwellness.com.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 12

Episode 304: AMA Part 5, Thirst, Dehydration, Sleep Disturbances, Cholesterol, Worst Jobs Ever, Favorite Meals, Bad Diets, Internet Trolls, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

13:15 - Listener Q&A: Celia - New to keto and IF(6 months in) and I am SOOOO thirsty ALL NIGHT LONG! Up 3 & 4 times, drinking LMNT, and going to the bathroom and having a hot flash. HELLLPPPPPPP

Hormonal Changes During Menopause and the Impact on Fluid Regulation

24:45 - BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

27:00 - Listener Q&A: Lynn - Is high cholesterol bloodwork common with intermittent fasting?

INSIDE TRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Ep. 196 – Alternative Tools to Optimize Your Health

Ep. 128 – Cholesterol Obsession: Why It’s the Intellectual Property of the Animal Kingdom with Dave Feldman

36:15 - Listener Q&A: Kim - Hi! Would you recommend fasting longer and then have a 3-4 hour eating window or fasting shorter but having 2 meals, no snacks in a longer eating window, say a 6-7 hour eating window? 53year old female, post menopause, exercises daily with walking and lifting, tries to eat real Whole Foods and wants to lose another 5-10 pounds then enter maintenance. Thanks so much! Love your podcasts and the fantastic info you both share

39:45 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What’s the worst job that you have had? If you weren’t doing what you are what would you be doing?

47:45 - Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What is your favorite dinner?

53:45 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

55:10 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - What are some health related things you’ve tried that you really didn’t like or had bad side effects to?

1:00:00 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - What’s one beauty or health product/fad that didn’t work for you? 

Go to melanieavalon.com/dime and use the code MELANIEAVALON for an exclusive discount.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, including clean fast-friendly electrolytes for free. Yes, for free. I talk about a lot of products on these shows. When it comes to supporting fasting and/or the ketogenic diet, there is a supplement which is a game changer. I cannot tell you how many times I get feedback from my audience about how this was the key to addressing issues that people often experience with keto or fasting.

It is so, so important to replenish electrolytes if you want to have energy and an active lifestyle. A lot of people experience the keto flu or issues while fasting, like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness. These are all common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. You might think you’re not doing well with fasting or that the keto diet isn’t for you, when really, you just need electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you’d like to learn all about the science of electrolytes and get answers to commonly asked questions, definitely check out the interview I did with my hero, Robb Wolf, on this show. He’s also one of the co-founders of LMNT.

There have been moments in my life where I needed electrolytes and drinking some LMNT took me from a state of fatigue to feeling like my body was actually alive. Of course, it can be hard to find electrolytes, which are clean and good to put in your body. That’s why I adore LMNT.

LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don’t. That’s a science-backed electrolyte ratio, 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 mg of magnesium with none of the junk. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS, because we don't have time for that. You guys know I’m obsessed with purity and quality of supplements. LMNT is the electrolyte supplement that I recommend. When you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. When sodium is not replaced, a common side effect is muscle cramps and fatigue. LMNT is used by everyone, including NBA, NFL, and NHL players, Olympic athletes, Navy SEALS, and of course, everyday moms and dads, those practicing intermittent fasting, the keto or paleo diet, and exercise enthusiasts.

Right now, LMNT has a fantastic offer for our audience. You can get a free sample pack with any purchase. That’s eight single-serving packets of eight different flavors for free with any LMNT order. Yes, the raw unfavored version is clean fast friendly. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That’s D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom/ifpodcast. Try it totally risk-free. If you don’t like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give you your money back, no questions asked. You literally have nothing to lose. We’ll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight.

Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because, ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. 

The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have Countertime for anti-aging, Countermatch for normal skin, Countercontrol for acne and oily prone, and Counterstart for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted the Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20, to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20, to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I'm excited to ask you. This actually airs the day before Valentine's Day. How do you feel about Valentine's Day? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I'm laughing because my team just sent me a message and said, "How do you want us to address Valentine's Day on social media?", which I thought was humorous. I think it's one of those contrived holidays that, for a lot of people, makes them feel badly about themselves. Obviously, I've been married for almost 20 years. I've been with my husband for almost 21 years. So, from my perspective, irrespective of where I was in life stage throughout my lifetime, I always spent it with people that I loved. And so, whether it was girlfriends getting together or whether it was who I was dating or my husband, I think Valentine's Day is one of those days that feels very contrived, and it's far more important how you treat your loved ones for the other 364 days out of the year. I don't put a lot of emphasis on it. 

It was always a fun thing to do with the kids when they were younger. Maybe we got them something fun, or maybe we had like a Valentine's Day themed breakfast or dinner. I mean, something that was fun. I don't put a lot of effort, not that I don't put an effort, but it's not something that to me is representative of a whole lot of anything other than a contrived holiday. I don't know if you feel similarly or are you all in on Valentine's Day and go bananas?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I have a question. When you were like in elementary school-- I'm just wondering how long they've been doing, because when I was in elementary school, would you guys do the Valentines that you would give to everybody?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: [chuckles] I was just reflecting on that recently because it's really a little bit traumatic for kids, I think, because I don't know, at least for me, when I was giving the Valentine, you get the cards with all the different ones, and you give your favorite cards to your favorite people. The guy you like, you give the one that's trying to send a secret message to him. I don't know, it's just like a lot. [laughs] It's like a lot for little kids, and then there's candy on top of that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting because my kids grew up in the age where you give a card to everyone, which is fine. But to me, as a parent, it was trying to get creative with cards and get your kids to sit down and sign their name and their friend's name. It just became this very large project. And yes, the candy thing. It's like I remember before we'd even gotten to Christmas, the grocery store started putting out Valentine's Day candy. And I was just thinking to myself, processed food industry just has a field day but these kinds of contrived holidays. I'm all about spending time with people you love. And if you can't spend time with people you love, don't make a big deal about it. I don't think anyone should feel badly about Valentine's Day. 

I think when I was in college, I was in a big sorority, and I just remember people felt so left out if they weren't coupled on these holidays. And yet, the way I look at it is that's not what it's about. It's like, how do you treat the people that you love 364 days out of the year? On this one day, maybe you do something special, but it shouldn't put you into debt. It shouldn't stress you out. It shouldn't mean that you have to spend $150 on a super overpriced bunch of roses. I think sometimes people lose sight of what's most important is the point I'm trying to make. 

Melanie Avalon: I find it really interesting because I've never had-- I don't know if I did in high school, I've never really had FOMO about being in a relationship. I just love being single all about it. Valentine's has never really distressed me in any way. It didn't bother me that I didn't have somebody to do it with. It was just like another day. I do remember though it's funny how you'll have certain memories that really stick with you. I remember when I was in college or-- I think I was in college, and I was dating somebody and I thought were dating pretty regularly. I just really casually asked, “What do you want to do for Valentine's Day?” He was like, “Oh, well, should we do something for Valentine's Day?” I was like, “Oh, okay, never mind.” That was not the question to ask. This Valentine's Day actually, I'm doing something. So, I'm excited about it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, for full disclosure, my husband's going to be on a snowboarding trip with his buddies and I'm totally okay with that for a variety of reasons. Admittedly, for our anniversary last year, I was out in LA, doing press. So, [laughs] we talk about these things ahead of time. I think if you're separated from your significant other, that's okay too. You just set aside time to spend time together and do something that you enjoy together as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the other thing that stresses me out about it is because I was a server for so long and fine dining, so I know what Valentine's Day is like. It's like the craziest day [laughs] for being a server. Like this year, I do want to go to a restaurant on Valentine's Day. But then, I know what's going on in the server's head, so I don't want to go. But then again, well, you can make a lot of money on Valentine's Day as a server.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep, I remember those days. I used to always say, like New Year's Eve, like any of the big holidays, you don't always get a great meal and everything's just chaotic. But yes, you can definitely do well as a server. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like the craziest day. So Happy Valentine's Day or Single Awareness Day or whatever you want to call it. Today's episode, we are continuing from all the AMA questions that we got. And last episode, we did all fasting related ones, and we have a few more of those, so we're going to start with those. May or may not take up the whole episode, and if they don't, we will go to some of our other random AMAs that we still have. So, lots of fun stuff. So, to start things off, we have a question from Celia. She says, “I am new to Keto and IF. I'm six months in and I am so thirsty all night long,” and there's a lot of caps with that. She says, “I'm up three and four times drinking LMNT and going to the bathroom and having a hot flash. Help.” Lots of caps with that too. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm glad that you read this and not me because I could not have done-- 

Melanie Avalon: Help. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well, Celia, a couple of things. First and foremost, when patients tell me that they're up urinating multiple times a night, I have to ask when do you stop drinking water or start/stop drinking liquids because that's very important. Some people have a propensity for an overactive bladder. Drinking or limiting your fluids after 6:00 PM is certainly going to be important. You mentioned hot flashes, so I have to believe you're at least in the perimenopause, menopause realm and I found a really interesting paper that I was discussing with Melanie before we started recording. This is from Reproductive Sciences, Hormonal Changes During Menopause and the Impact on Fluid Regulation. So, the big takeaway for everyone, without me diving deep into this paper, is talking about the net impact of fluid regulation in the body for women as they are transitioning into perimenopause and menopause. 

And so, big takeaway is we are not as good about recognizing when we get thirsty. Sometimes people are not realizing that they're actually dehydrated and by the time they get thirsty, they're really dehydrated. So, they spend all this time catching up. This is actually a byproduct of the loss of estrogen. So, perimenopause is this time where there's dynamic fluctuations in estrogen, sometimes even much higher than they are when we're at peak fertile years. We're losing progesterone, our ovaries are producing less, our adrenals are trying to pick up the slack, and then we have these wild fluctuations in estrogen. And so, we know that estrogen in particular is very important for regulating fluid balance in the body. So, this can directly impact our ability to recognize when we are thirsty and can also impact some of these key mechanisms in the body, like hormones, like the renin-angiotensin, aldosterone system, atrial natriuretic peptide secretion, which all impact regulation in the kidneys and then these fluid responses. 

So, big takeaway is first and foremost, make sure that you're not drinking too much water after 6 o'clock at night. Number two, make sure you're using electrolytes during the day, throughout the day. The other thing that's interesting, and we'll link this study up so people can take a look at it. There's actually a figure here about osmotic regulation in women during different phases of the menstrual cycle and in men. So, it's a superimposition of the men, it's very consistent in terms of where they are. For women, you can actually see that there are changes when they have more estrogen in their bodies versus less. And so, I really think that this speaks to a couple of things both behavioral. Making sure you're hydrating enough during the day period, and then also understanding that there is some hormonal fluctuation with the loss of estrogen that is probably exacerbating this. And like I said, we will tack this along into the show notes that you'll have it available to reference as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that was so helpful. I learned so much. 

Cynthia Thurlow: There is too much information that is so helpful. The other thing that I just wanted to mention before is there's something called anti-diuretic hormone. And when women are getting up at night to pee or urinate a lot, we call that nocturia. You're getting up at night to pee, so nocturia is urinating at night. You start thinking about, is your anti-diuretic hormone which is what concentrates your urine at night. Is that not working properly? Sometimes that can also be a byproduct of things like sleep apnea. There's a lot that can impact ADH secretion. Just something to consider and a way to think about this is, sometimes ADH secretion gets dysregulated when we drink alcohol, which is why sometimes people will feel like when they're drinking alcohol, they're urinating a lot. It's because you get this dysregulation of this key hormone. It's a couple of different variables that may be at play. 

The last thing I would mention is the hot flashes. That could be blood sugar mediated or that could also be your brain sending an SOS to your ovaries like release some estrogen. So, this is another component. There's a lot of different things that could be going on but be reassured that this is something we have to be very conscientious about. Like, I can tell you that on days I travel and I cannot drink enough water, I am really, really thirsty at night. The other piece of that is I'm always thinking to myself personally, “Is there an insulin issue? Am I becoming insulin resistant? Why am I thirsty?” I think a lot of it has to do with if you're not drinking enough water during the day, your body is trying to play catch up and you start to lose those mechanisms to remind you that you need to drink. That was long. 

Melanie Avalon: No, that was great. It was very, very helpful. Do you find with most of your female patients who are having all these experiences that IF and fasting, what do you normally see? Does it normally help? Make it worse? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think most people that are fasting are just more attuned to their bodies in general. So, I think they start to try to figure out what's contributing to this. Because if this is a change, then what's mitigating it? So, I always say, let's work with the most benign things first. Let's make sure you're not drinking too many fluids after 6 o'clock at night. Let's make sure you're getting plenty of electrolytes throughout the day. Let's make sure you're not insulin resistant because that nocturia piece can be problematic. And then, you kind of work backwards. I would say pick the low-lying fruit first and then work backwards. But I do find most women in particular that are intermittent fasters are leaning into what their body is trying to communicate to them. So, I think they tend to stay on top of these kinds of symptoms. Like, whereas someone else might just say, “Oh, I wake up three or four times a night to sleep.” 

The other thing I would say is, and I want to make sure I emphasize this, if your sleep quality is eroded because you are fasting, or you can't get your fluids in during the day, then you need to make some changes because sleep is foundational to our health. So, if you can't sleep through the night, we have to fix that first. So, if you are new to fasting and you're finding it's really challenging to be able to sleep properly through the night, we need to work on that. That is the number one priority. It could be that maybe you back off and you're just doing a 12- or 13-hour window of digestive rest as a way to make sure we can dial in on the sleep piece, because if you're not sleeping through the night, that's a disqualifier. I always say that's super important and it's interesting. 

I'm getting ready to interview Louisa Nicola. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her work, but she's a brain health researcher. One of the things I want to talk to her about is that interrelationship between poor quality sleep and weight loss resistance because that is such a big, huge problem for so many people. 

Melanie Avalon: Does she have a book? 

Cynthia Thurlow: She does not have a book, but she has one of my favorite, favorite podcasts. So, her podcast is The Neuro Experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Very cool. 

Cynthia Thurlow: She's getting her PhD. No book yet, but she has a really great she has great content. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I think that's a pretty comprehensive answer. Thank you. I'm always really curious about people's electrolytes because she says she's drinking LMNT. I just find it so interesting, the actual sodium and aldosterone system and all of that. I think for some people, it can be like they got to find what works for them to where they're staying hydrated and not fluctuating between releasing water, thirsty, retaining water. A lot of people get in their groove with LMNT and they're good to go, but maybe that might be something to dose around. I don't know if she needs more or less, but I'd be curious, especially when it's coupled with keto and low-carb.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and I start to think it because she's six months in, like she's beyond she's at a stage where she has a lot of glycogen depletion and a lot of serum sodium loss. That might be exacerbating some things, but I agree with you that this is a degree of experimentation that's going to be important and for many people. I used to be this person when I was rounding on patients, I didn't want to be having to run to the restroom every hour to urinate. I was clinically dehydrated probably 80% of the time I was working in the hospital or in the clinic, and so I was able to weather that when I was younger. But now when I travel, I have to be really diligent. I'm the person that fills up 2 meters worth of water and tries to get that consumed while I'm traveling just to stay hydrated, because it becomes such a big problem. 

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting for me, just historically with my experience, because I've done bouts of low-carb versus high-carb, and when I was low-carb, that's when I would struggle with dehydration and also needing to urinate more and stuff like that. But what I do now, which is what I've been doing for a long time, which is like a very high-carb approach, but all fruit interestingly, I actually don't have that issue anymore. I always feel pretty hydrated, but I'm an N of one. So, I just think it's really interesting that people can react differently. But if I were to have high carb from like starches, for example, I would retain water. I would have issues with probably actually feeling hydrated. It's just interesting how I react to different carbs and water storage and everything. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Which she describes as having to get up three or four times a night. That's like an active diuresis. That's the technical terminology of your body trying to get rid of excess fluid. You just start to think about the value of the N of one as you stated. And I can tell for me, if I'm carb cycling the days I go low-carb, I know I'm going to urinate more than the days when I'm higher carbohydrate, which mine are never all that high, like maybe a 100 and 125. But cycling from 50 to 125 over a series of days, it's okay for me because I work from home, so I can manage that. But again, for some people it could be the case of Celia, if she's got a job where she can't be getting up every hour to be able to run to the restroom, it may be that she's really pushing the fluids when she gets off of work, or at the latter stage of the day. That could be why she's getting up multiple times a night as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. One of my favorite foods for gut health, skin cravings, energy, and immunity is definitely bone broth. I and so many of my listeners love bone broth, but it can also be intimidating because it can be hard to find a bone broth that is all natural, organic, free of preservatives, and especially no salt added. Of course, you can always make your own, which I love but that can be of a cumbersome process.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Lynn. “Is high cholesterol blood work common with intermittent fasting?” 

Cynthia Thurlow: I would say no. I think there's a lot of different factors. Melanie, I know that you did a bunch of reading and researching on this in particular, but I think for a lot of people, when you're talking about total cholesterol, you can be this. Well, Dave Feldman is the gentleman who's really changing the narrative for clinicians in terms of the way that we look at lipids overall in terms of vis-à-vis diet. And there are certain people that are called lean mass hyperresponders. I am one of them. My body just in relationship to eating a higher protein, lower carbohydrate diet will create more. He usually uses the analogy of boats, like more boats to transport these lipids, but it's not actually pathogenic.

I'm just going to very basically say I don't think there's a direct correlation with fasting and changes in lipids per se, but I think it's largely a reflection of nutritional choices and not per se all pathologic. Like, I don't even worry about the total cholesterol number unless it's low, because that can be a predictor of morbidity and mortality. So, there were a lot of patients that I used to stop their statins for this reason. Melanie, I'm curious, you mentioned that you read some really good research in this area in particular. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's actually a ton of studies on this and I got the sense pretty quickly that I didn't need to read like millions more because the takeaway was the same, which was that people seem to respond all differently, but that it is actually pretty common to see increased cholesterol levels transiently while fasting. And I should clarify, it's funny, ever since, just like we always mentioned Peter Attia, on almost every episode. He had an episode all on cholesterol. He went on a monologue about how because LDL and HDL aren't actually cholesterol. They're the carriers, like Cynthia just said. And he made a comment about how if anybody ever says LDL cholesterol, he basically not immediately dismisses them, but [laughs] questions what they know. I've just kept that in my mind. I've been like, if I ever interview him, like, “Do not say LDL cholesterol.” Do not say, [laughs] like, “Do not say HDL cholesterol.” 

But the point of that is Lynn's question was, “Is high cholesterol blood work--?" So, high cholesterol. That's a big blanket statement that has a lot of factors that are going into that. So, you have your total serum cholesterol, you have your LDL and HDL, which are carriers of cholesterol kind of what Cynthia was just saying. It's like the boat analogy. And then, you have your triglycerides. This is not meant to be a cholesterol entire episode, but there's different implications for what that all means. So, in the studies, literally, I found things showing all different things like in a 2020 trial, I found they found that in Fasting patients with low HDL, they saw that it improved their HDL and it did significantly affect their total cholesterol and their LDL as well. 

And another study, this is of an older study, but it was called Fasting increases serum total cholesterol, LDL and Apo B in healthy, nonobese humans. In their study, they found that fasting increased total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol. I liked this article because it actually went into the mechanisms behind it. They found that the increase in serum cholesterol, LDL and Apo B were all associated with weight loss. They found that fasting did not affect serum concentrations of triglycerol and HDL, which is the opposite of what that other study found. In that study, they actually did a review of a lot of other studies and literally they found all different things. It seemed to really depend on the population, on the sex, on the weight loss or not. So, their mechanisms, they say that these contradictory reports may be explained by sex and or age difference and then some of the things that might be going on is that fasting, especially if it's resulting in weight loss, that is lipolysis, so breaking down and releasing fats. 

They said that could be a reason that people see an increase in LDL. And then on top of that, with fasting, it's possible that the liver actually decreases its LDL uptake so that further can contribute to higher LDL while fasting. Basically, if you go to Google Scholar and just type in cholesterol or whatever one that you want to look at in fasting, there's so many studies, and like I said, it's really all over the place. The important takeaway from it is that long term, it seems to have a beneficial effect on people's lipid panels. So, regardless of the transitory moment, while you're fasting, that might release, break down more fat and result in more cholesterol in the bloodstream, but long term it seems to really help with lipid panels, help with your risk for cardio events. So, yes, that's my thought, is that you might see higher levels, but you're probably having a benefit in the end. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's really interesting because when I reflect back on when I started in medicine over 25 years ago, the way that we look at lipids has really started to shift, thankfully. Looking at these different particle sizes and the inflammatory responses of certain types of densities of LDL and LP(a) and Apo B, and all these metrics that people weren't per se, really looking at so many years ago. I think that fortunately, there are many people that are evolving the way that we look at lipids and benefits to metrics that we look at in blood work for patients. But there are equally just as many individuals that are still, like, practicing the mindset of total cholesterol has to be a certain amount and understanding the cholesterol goes on to be intricately involved in creating hormones. Obviously, we don't want our total cholesterol to be too low. But yeah, it's interesting that there's more and more research being done in this area. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and just a comment, I'm really excited because I love a company called InsideTracker and I haven't done this yet, but they just updated their panel that you get with them to include Apo B. So, I am so excited to get that tested. I'm like so excited. If people would like to get their Apo B tested, as well as a lot of other markers related to their “biological age.” They can go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the code, MELANIE, to get 20% off. So, I will definitely be reporting back about that and posting about it on my Instagram because I don't think I've ever tested my Apo B. Do you test it regularly, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. It's interesting. I have intermittently had it tested over the past probably a few years. I find functional medicine, they're usually the ones that are looking at that, but especially because without oversharing, if you were to just look at a traditional lipid panel of mine, my LDL would look very high, my total cholesterol would look very high, my HDL would look very high, my triglycerides are low. And over many years of having different internists, sometimes the concept of a statin would come up and I knew enough to ask for these advanced lipid analysis and these other metrics. When you would look at, as an example the particle size of my LDL, it was like all light and fluffy. It's the less atherogenic stuff. 

And so, to answer your question, yes, I do episodically get it checked. What I'm encouraging people to do is if your traditional lipid panel looks abnormal, don't settle for that being the one and done. There's more to it than that. I like that there are companies out here now that are allowing people to get that information without having to, per se, have to go through their provider. Even if it comes back and it's abnormal and you still need to bring it to them, that's totally fine. Or if it's completely normal, then it's something that you can look at as a metric to look to determine. Where are you on this metabolic health journey? Are you doing better than the last time? Are you starting to veer off course? What can you do to course correct and keep yourself healthy and vital? 

Melanie Avalon: It is really interesting because I've been tracking my cholesterol, my full cholesterol panel, historically with InsideTracker, so I have a lot of data on it. It's really interesting how it correlates to my diet. So, like, when I'm low-carb, everything is high. I mean, not in a bad way, the nuance that you were just talking about, but the levels of everything is substantially raised compared to when I do my high protein, low-fat, high-carb, everything's lower. It's just really interesting and it's so complicated and so nuanced. I think it's probably one of the most complicated things in health as far as there just being so many different opinions on it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I couldn't agree with you more and it's interesting. We'll link up another podcast I did with Dr. Bret Scher. He's a preventative cardiologist, but also as a functional integrative approach. We talked quite a bit about these advanced lipid metrics. We'll link that in the show notes so that listeners can take a listen to that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, now we have a question from Kim. She says, “Hi. Would you recommend fasting longer and then have a three- to four-hour eating window or fasting shorter, but having two meals, no snacks, and a longer eating window, say, a six- to seven-hour eating window? I'm a 53-year-old female post menopause, exercise daily with walking and lifting. I try to eat real whole foods and want to lose another 5 to 10 pounds than inter maintenance. Thanks so much. Love your podcast and the fantastic info you both share.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks, Kim. It sounds like you're doing a lot of great things already. I think this will be no surprise for listeners to hear me suggest that you have two meals to be able to get in a minimum of 100 grams of protein daily. I would also suggest tracking your macros to know where you are. I just find that most people really are optimized if they're getting two boluses of protein in per day. The other thing that I think is really important is especially because your menopausal getting a really good sense of what your hormones are doing. I'm not sure if you have had your baseline sex hormones, thyroid, leptin, ghrelin, all these hormones that we can have fasting insulin that we can have tested. I'm really looking at those to see if they're fully optimized, because some degree of weight loss resistance can be related to poor quality sleep, inflammatory nutrition. I know that you're strength training, so that sounds like that's really dialed in, but I think for a lot of women, it's looking at the basics and then looking at gut health and looking at things that can be cleaned up in terms of toxin exposure, your personal care products, your environment, your food. 

I know Melanie and I have talked a lot about that, in particular over the last several podcasts, and then also thinking about just the emotional component. I'm in the midst of getting ready to submit a second book proposal, and one of the things I've been really amazed, there's a lot of really good research in this that early childhood trauma, so they call it an ANA score. So, adverse childhood events, if you are at risk for having been through quite a few adverse childhood events, that can put you at risk as an adult for not auto, also autoimmune disorders like Hashimoto, celiac, etc., but can also put you at risk for weight loss resistance. So, recognizing there's a significant emotional component to some of the struggles that we have when we have weight loss plateaus, I think all those things are certainly important. Absolutely two meals in a wider feeding window I think is really helpful. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought that was really comprehensive, and I really like that stuff about the adverse childhood events. So, [laughs] it's what we always say, the importance of protein and everything being so important. Really, Cynthia, it's really been our relationship on this show that's made me pay more attention to that and that a lot of people might need longer windows to get all of that in. So, yes, I would err on the side of eating the window that will allow you to get in all of that protein rather than stressing about having the smaller window per se. Really, when it comes to the food aspect, I think there's so much magic that can happen with your actual food choices, which sounds like you're doing great, you're trying to eat real, whole foods. But I just think there's a lot of magic that can happen with that. Focus on what you're eating in that eating window rather than getting caught up in the nuance of a few more hours here or there. That’s my thoughts on that. Shall we go to some other random AMA questions? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, these are leftover AMA questions that are just kind of all over the place. Here's a really random question from Laura. She wants to know, what's the worst job that you have had? She wants to know, if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you be doing? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, worst job I've ever had was my first job. Many of you probably know I grew up on the Jersey Shore, and working at the boardwalk seemed to be a really awesome job. But I worked at an ice cream place, and so imagine humid, hot weather, and you were scooping ice cream. This is before there was like a lot of soft serve, so it was like getting-- you're literally-- me being five foot three, half my body was practically in this pit of ice cream to scoop it up. I spent the entire summer smelling like ice cream, and I was sticky from my armpits, honest to God, even though I had a uniform on all the way to my hand. I remember I don't think I ate ice cream for several years after that, but I hated that job. [laughs] I really did not like that job. It was very reinforcing, like, “Okay, if I'm going to be working hard and sweating, I want to be making more money.” So I started waiting tables after that.

But if I weren't doing what I'm doing now, I think I honestly would have ended up either this is kind of funny. Originally, I thought I was going to be an attorney, and I realized now I don't like to argue, so I would have been a terrible attorney. I think I honestly would have ended up in the media realm, whether it would have been behind the scenes or being a reporter. I like getting the scoop, I like getting information, which is probably why podcasting appeals to me so much that I get to ask people all the questions that I'm curious about, but that's probably what I would have done. I'm an introvert, so being in front of the camera might not have been where I would have been, but I probably would have enjoyed being a reporter or being a journalist. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. That job does sound pretty miserable. Have I shared with you before my background horror stories? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I've only cried from misery three times in my life and they were all while doing background on TV shows and movies and so the worst experience of my life, I might have shared this story before on the podcast. Do you know the movie, Sharknado? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, [chuckles] so in the acting world, there's union acting. SAG-AFTRA that people might be familiar with, like the SAG Awards. And then, there's nonunion. Well, when you're a background “actor,” so when you're a person in the background of a TV show or movie, you're like the lowest of low on the totem pole. If you ever want to see social hierarchies devoid of empathy, [chuckles] where people are just so blunt about the hierarchy that it's almost shocking, just go to a film set and look at how extras are treated.

But in any case, when I was nonunion, it can be pretty bad. I got a call for this movie and it was a low budget sci-fi film. They didn't tell us what it was or the name or anything. We were shooting in downtown LA. It was in the winter, which I know it's not that cold in LA. But it was like 40 degrees that day and were in like a tunnel. I think it was like a tunnel without a roof. So, it was like a valley thing. It's hard to describe. It was down, so it created like a wind tunnel. Wind was rushing through it and so they put us down there and then they were like yelling at us from like way up high and then they were like, “Okay, so when we call action, we're going to do the rain and then there are sharks and just run away from the sharks.” We're like [laughs] because it ended up being Sharknado. So, they would say like, “cue rain.” And they do “Action,” it would be like a torrential downpour. We had to just like run from imaginary sharks, like over cars, but for 6 hours, like in 40 degrees with wind and rain like soaked to the bone. I was so miserable. I was bawling. They would say run and I was like tears were like streaming down my face. 

And then finally, they pulled out some of us because like a PA came over and was like, I think they might get hypothermia. [laughs] They took some of us and put us into a tent. It was the worst day of my life. And then, what's really funny is then later I realized it was Sharknado. And I was like, “Oh.”

And then, what's even funnier is I became SAG later. When you're SAG, they treat you a lot better. I got a call for Sharknado 2, and I was like, “I can't do this movie again.” But the second time around, [laughs] I was SAG. I was a flight attendant and it was really cool. It was on a plane, a fake plane. The other flight attendant was Kelly Osbourne. [laughs] It was really fun. It was really funny too, because it was the same thing. They'd be like, “Action,” and they'd be like “Sharks.” And we all had to be like screaming. Oh, man, good times.

And then, the other two times I cried. One was doing background on some TV show and I had to swim in a pool for hours. It was also freezing, and I was just like holding the side and like crying to myself. The third time I was crying was I was on Fast and the Furious 7, out in the desert and it was 110 degrees and I literally thought I was going to die. That's the only time I left the set earlier, I went up to the medic and I was like, “I have to leave. I can't do this anymore.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think for a lot like those of us who are not in that industry or never worked in that industry, I think there's this perception that it's all glamorous and you have definitely reaffirmed that it is not all glamorous. So, kudos to you for being wet and cold and pretending to run from whatever Sharknado thing was going on. But how cool about Kelly Osbourne. Was she nice? Like friendly?

Melanie Avalon: She seemed nice. Yeah, I think I didn't really talk to her, but I actually have a really cool video way back on my Instagram because I think for that scene I was in the back of the plane. So, I was like just with my little cart and not actually going into the scene, so it looked like I was in a plane. But you would just hear action and then you just people screaming like sharks, like the lights flickering. I've had so many experiences on movies and TV shows, it's crazy. Like, I've probably been on every TV show. 

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so funny. Yeah, I've been on sets, but it's been like news environments and so that's totally different. It's a little more like serious. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, what's really funny is some of the experiences are so surreal and it's funny because when you're doing background acting, half the time you really just don't want to be there. Some of the experiences are really cool. People would probably pay thousands of dollars for that. When it's happening for me, I'm like, "I just want to go home." I remember I did a concert scene for CSI and it was actually Ozzy Osbourne and I was like in the front row. So, I got to stand in front of Ozzy Osbourne for like hours while he was doing a fake concert. The whole time I was like, "I just want to leave." I knew that people would probably pay like thousands of dollars for that experience. But for me, it was like $8 an hour. So, [laughs] good times. 

Cynthia Thurlow: The glamorous life. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know, I know. What would I be doing if I wasn't doing this? So funny, like you growing up, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. I still think I could be a good lawyer, but I don't think I'd be happy doing it because I think it would make me upset. So, like Morgan Levine kind of embodies-- She wrote the book True Age, and I had her on my show, and she kind of embodies what I would want to be if I was a scientist, because she's-- not to be stereotypical, but I don't know how to say this all being stereotypical. She doesn't look like your typical scientist. She looks like if I were a scientist, what I think I would like the vibe that it would be. She's brilliant and studies aging. So, when I interviewed David Sinclair the first time, he made a comment about how I should come be a student in his lab at Harvard, and I wanted to just die when he said that. I think that's what I would be doing would be, like a scientist and studying longevity and aging, and the goal would be to get a Nobel Prize. [laughter] Aim high. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: So, here's one. Heidi wants to know, what does a day of eating look like for you? Kim really wants to know what is your favorite dinner? So, those two.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, so we'll start with favorite dinner, because that's easy. Like a big filet and probably either asparagus or broccolini and maybe some mushrooms. I keep things pretty simple. We grill a lot of meat and a lot of fish, and that's my happy place. Give me some healthy fats and some meat and some non-starchy vegetables, and that's like a perfect meal for me. I would say that today is a good example of what I eat in a day. I broke my fast this morning with-- gosh, it was like two bison burgers and some hard-boiled eggs, because it just depends on the day. I was hungry, and so I had that along with some cut-up cucumbers that were salted. I go through phases where I like certain foods, and cucumbers are super hydrating, as Melanie and I both know, and they're just easy to put together. 

And I don't necessarily have to do a lot of food prep. And then tonight, we're having short ribs. So, my goal is always to hit 50 to 60 grams of protein in each meal. Today, I was way more than 60 grams with what I eat because I had two burgers and two eggs. So yeah, I had way over that. And then, dinner is going to be short ribs, and I haven't yet consumed that. My kids will probably-- I think they're asking already for some type of a starch with that, I'll probably have asparagus. I mean, for me, there's probably four or five vegetables that I choose between for big meals and then salad whenever I want it. But that's in a given day. That's what I'm going to have. Today has been busy getting taxes prepared and then podcast recording, doing some couple of podcasts of Melanie. How about you, Melanie? What's your favorite dinner? 

Melanie Avalon: So, it's interesting, I have two answers because there's my favorite dinner that I eat, and then there's like if it was my last meal type thing, which would be completely different. Would your last meal be completely different? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, because I would say my go-to is usually steak or like a bison steak or like a fatty fish, like maybe salmon, like a good-sized salmon steak. For me, it's so satiating that I definitely hit those protein thresholds where I'm like totally satiated and done. Maybe if you're asking if I'd have dessert, then it might be something chocolatey, because I love chocolate, dark chocolate. 

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. I love what I eat. When I answer my Cynthia answer, which is it's what I would often eat, like at a restaurant or something. And I do love it. So, when I say my other answer, it's not that I don't love what I'm normally eating, because I do, but it's very similar to what Cynthia said. It really would depend on what I'm personally craving that night, protein wise. It would be like if it's a steak, a bone and filet is my favorite cut. If it's fish, I love going out when they have whole branzino. I love that. I love chilling sea bass, but it's too high in mercury. That would be my favorite fish. But the mercury is an issue. Yeah, it would be that with steamed spinach or something and then red wine, and then probably lots of fruit, lots of blueberries. If it was like a last meal situation, that's when I would eat all the things. 

So, it would definitely be Cajun chicken pasta from Chili’s, which I haven't had since probably high school. Funfetti cake, just all the Funfetti and lots of cheese. I mean, alfredo-- oh, yeah, Cajun chicken pasta is alfredo. Yeah. I love all these things. The day in the life, I think listeners are overwhelmingly familiar. I just eat the one meal day thing, and I eat tons and tons of lean protein, whatever I'm craving, tons of scallops. So, it's usually scallops and then either some chicken or some fish. Lots of cucumbers, and I love lots of blueberries and wine and rinse and repeat. It's pretty much just whatever I'm craving. Then the scallops are with, like, mushrooms and cilantro and chives, ginger, turmeric. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny, I hadn't had scallops in a while, and I just had scallops recently, and it's interesting. It's one of the few things my husband doesn't like, so if I get them, it's usually at a restaurant. And I ate them and I was like, “Okay I think I'm okay eating scallops.” Again, I won't eat them again for six months. But I definitely love lobster and shellfish. Yeah, there's a lot of good things, but my kind of methodology for everyone that's listening, it's usually heavy on the protein. If there's not fat in the protein, then I'm adding some fats and then some type of a non-starchy vegetable, and I'm very happy. Like, broccolini is my current obsession, especially if it's sautéed with garlic and red pepper. It's really good and just superfast and easy. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that made me think I'll clarify. So, my ideal favorite meal that I actually eat, I love at restaurants when they have tartar or carpaccio, it's like some rare meat appetizer or sashimi if it's salmon. And I'm excited, speaking of Valentine's Day, the restaurant we're going to, I think, has a seafood tower. The thing I love about seafood towers is those tend to all be low mercury things like lobster, shrimp, like shellfish and stuff. So, crab. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all good. Someone was making fun of me the other day because I went into our grocery store and they had lobster that had been deconstructed that day. And so, I bought myself half a pound of lobster tail and claw and just put it on top of a salad and ate that for lunch. And it was amazing. My kids were like, “I cannot believe you bought that for yourself.” I was like, “Yes, I did, and I feel zero guilt.” 

Melanie Avalon: That's totally what I would do. Oh, I love going to-- Fun fact, I might have shared this. If you go to Whole Foods and they have the whole fish, they will debone it for you if you ask. So, I love going-- I went on a kick after I had, like I said, the full branzino at some restaurants. I was like, “I got to start doing this myself.” So, I go and get an entire fish for myself and cook it. It's really fun. It's yummy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially tried it because I travel so frequently, and it just makes my life so much easier to have a convenient, healthy option. I typically will take it in the morning after working out or after my morning tea, and it makes me feel like I have so much more energy/ For me, it's all about convenience. I can take my travel packs with me, whether I'm traveling for business, whether I'm traveling for pleasure, I can throw it in my bag, and I know I can make it through security without any issues. AG1 has been part of millions of mornings since 2010 and a part of my morning for the last three to four years. It's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins and minerals, as well as whole food sourced ingredients that positively benefit my energy and sleep.

I also love that they are supporters of donating to organizations helping to get nutritious food to kids in need, including No Kid Hungry here in the United States. Athletic Greens has donated over 1.2 million meals to kids in 2020.

So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. These travel packs make it so easy and convenient to bring Athletic Greens with you anywhere. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. Definitely check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's a really fun one from Mary Jane, “What are some health-related things you've tried that you really didn't like or had bad side effects to?” I tried like all the diets back in the day before finding low-carb and paleo. So, all of those, like, the cookie diet, just not a fan of that. I tried being vegan for like a week, did not work.

Cynthia Thurlow: How did that go? 

Melanie Avalon: It was like [chuckles] I remember I did it for, like, a week in college, and I was really excited because I went to a restaurant and was trying to find something, and they had something with Green Goddess dressing, and I was like, “This is so thematic. I'm being so vegetarian right now.” I was starving for protein. I was like, “I need meat.” It was very clear that it was not for me. The cookie diet, as well, was not for me. [laughs] Calorie counting, not for me. I need to feast. Like, I'm such a feaster. Also, so getting up early does not work for me. Like, as much as I want to be a morning person, going back and trying to widen my eating window and doing daytime eating after having done intermittent fasting, nope, not a good idea. Then, lastly, pets are so amazing for health. So incredible but I am not meant to, at least right now, have a pet. It's a lot to take care of, [chuckles] but I love when other people have pets. Oh, yeah and iodine. Iodine, I reacted to that supplement so bad. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Did you? Was it oral iodine or just putting it on, like Lugol’s solution on your skin? 

Melanie Avalon: I was doing the skin, and then I took some orally, and it's the only time that I so obviously reacted to a supplement. Like, my eyes got bloodshot red. I was like, “I can't go to work.” It's when I was a server, I look like I'm hungover or something. Yeah, it scared me. I think it's probably because it made me probably flush out like bromides and things. Did that spark your memory for any of yours? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think the things that I've learned about myself that a lot of other people have been able to do effortlessly that have not worked for me. I would say working night shifts never agreed with me. I'm not someone that does well, staying up late at night and not going to bed when it's dark outside. To the point where I think most of the time that I worked nights as a nurse and an NP, I felt like how you feel when you're, I don't want to say the word hungover, but when you're so tired, you just can't function. Like, I would function in the emergencies, but I would then walk around like a zombie on the days I was off or when I was trying to go to bed when it was light outside. So, say that. Certainly, the things that really didn't agree with me was when probably in the early 1990s when were still bastardizing fat and I just got out of college. 

When you take fat out, you're never satiated and you add a lot of processed crap back in there. So, when you're eating a lot of carbs, you're never satisfied. You're overeating carbs, not eating enough protein, eating fake fats. And I would say that definitely, although I was able to pretty quickly figure out that I do better eating more protein, but certainly not as much as I consume now. I would say that and the other thing that I've figured out doesn't suit me well. As I've never been a drinker, I was never someone that did well. I could have a drink or two, but I was never someone who ever felt good if they drank a lot. So, finally feeling like I'm at a stage in my life where I can effectively say I just choose not to drink because for me it doesn't make me feel good and my sleep is far too important. So, I would say those are probably the three things that I think about that for other people might work fine, but don't for me. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I mean, the night shift is interesting because I think it's really interesting how much clinical literature there is on night shift workers and how bad it is for our health. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting as I'm kind of navigating writing this book proposal. It's interesting to me that when you look at the research on metabolic health, the disadvantage people are at that work contrary to the way our circadian biology is designed to thrive. So, if you're not going to bed at all when it's dark outside, that's a problem. And so, you look at the rates of cancer and poor metabolic health and Alzheimer's and all these things, it's pretty solid research. I think about how many of my peers and colleagues like that was the only option they had, either because they had to work when their kids were asleep and then come home and take care of their kids or whatever their circumstances were. Those are hard decisions to make, but the research is certainly leaning in the direction that it's really profoundly detrimental to your health long term. Like, if you do it for a couple of years, that's different, but if you do that for 20, 30 years, definitely problematic. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Here's a sort of related one. What's a beauty or health product or fat that didn't work for you? I have one for that. Do you have one? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, you go first. I'll have to think.

Melanie Avalon: Eyelash extensions. Have you done them before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, the only time I -- Well, I wouldn't-- it's just when they add a little-- like if you get your makeup done, I think that's different.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, yeah, not like the temporary falsies. I got them done and I mean, they look amazing. They make your makeup routine cut down so much time getting ready. So, that was all great. And for a while I was like, “Oh, this is worth it for the time alone,” because I can just get ready faster. But they're so obnoxious to take care of like, when you're sleeping, I wear an eye mask. You're not supposed to do that. You can't really, like, wash them. I found the whole experience to be very stressful, [laughs] and then I took them off and I felt like I had lost so many eyelashes, and it's hard to know if I actually did or if it just looked I was used to seeing them. But the good thing that came out of that was after that started using DIME Beauty, they make an eyelash growth serum, and it's amazing. And I chose it because it's nontoxic. I can't recommend this eyelash serum enough. It has made my eyelashes grow so long now, like, I think probably better than before the eyelash extension. So, everybody get it. You can get a discount at melanieavalon.com/dime and use the code MELANIEAVALON. It's just their eyelash growth serum. So, I really recommend that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I'm going to share what is relevant because I have a troll on YouTube who's been making completely non-factual statements about me. So, I'm going to just call it out because just like I responded to this person. All of us have facial asymmetry. Everyone has-- like the right side of your face is not perfectly symmetrical to your left. As we get older, sometimes one side of your face may be more expressive than the other. You may have stronger muscles one side than the other. So, I have a very full mouth. I have had that my entire life. 

The reason why I'm sharing this story is to preemptively tell you what one thing I did that I didn't like. I've never had filler in my lips, but I have tried filler in other parts of my face. And so, about 12 years ago, there's this “famous" facial plastic surgeon in the Northern Virginia area, and I was like, “Oh, this is the person I need to go to.” They put some filler underneath my tear trough, so like underneath your eye. I guess he put so much filler there that I got horrible bruising. It made me look like I had perhaps been assaulted. I had to live with my face looking like that for like two weeks, and then it settled down. But for some people, you can get something called the Tyndall effect, which means when the filler is placed under the skin, you get a blue glow hue. And so, I had to have it all reversed. This is why I let the buyer beware. And so, I had it all reversed. And the irony is this troll kept saying, “Oh, you can tell she's had a ton of fillers.” I was like, “Dude, let me explain something to you.” After that experience, it was so negative. I was like, if I ever choose to do this again, I'm going to go to the best of the best, which is who I go to. 

This troll the other day was commenting that, “Oh, I'd had a ton of filler in my lips.” I was like, “No.” If you looked at photos of me, I was made fun of growing up because I had such full lips. The irony is I get accused of something I actually haven't done in a place I haven't done it. For me, the thing that I would caution everyone is if you choose to do anything to yourself, just make sure it's something you can reverse. That's the reason why I was comfortable saying, “Okay, this didn't work for me,” and you can reverse filler very easily. But a lot of people overdo it with filler, and it can migrate, so you have to be really, really careful. So, that would be my thing that I've done that I didn't love. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for sharing that and that sounds really intense. Just to discuss really briefly, the troll thing this weekend actually has been really hard for me because I posted a picture of when I went to see Hadestown, which is a Broadway musical, and all it took was like, one person commenting on my weight, which-- that's a whole tangent about. I don't know, I find it really interesting that the body shaming, there's like a double standard as far as what is acceptable and what's not. For some reason, it's okay to comment on people if you think they're underweight, and I know people are. They try to say it supportively, or most people do, but it just led to a torrential downpour of people commenting on my Instagram and then supportive people were there as well, but just stuff that's very not supportive and very negative. 

What's really interesting is I've been eating the same for like a decade, and it's so funny, like, one person called me that they were like, “I just went back through her pictures from ten years ago, and she looks the same as she did ten years ago.” But I just find it really interesting how people interact with people on social media. It's like because you're behind a screen, I don't know that people would say things to people's face in real life that they would say on social media and then just it's really ironic to me that there's a whole body acceptance movement, but it only goes one way. Like it goes for being overweight, but not if you look thin. And I also think we maybe have a warped perspective because I feel like the baseline weight is so high now that if you are thin or underweight, it looks even worse because we're used to seeing, I think, a higher resting weight. So, I've been having a lot of-- I got to see my therapist this week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, no, no and it's interesting because I think that anytime you put yourself out there, you are going to get people who are keyboard warriors. They would never say something like that to your face, but they feel empowered because you can't find them. What's interesting is it was a physician who couldn't who kept making these comments, and people were defending me, but it was also one of the things I was saying to my husband. I was like I was shocked because generally I try to not interject, but I interacted with this individual saying, “No, you're actually incorrect. You don't know what you're talking about,” because someone said, “Oh, it looks like you're having a stroke.” I was like, “No, you can actually have stronger muscles one side of your face than the other. That's normal asymmetry,” and it's just interesting how the people who put themselves out there are the ones oftentimes that are at greater risk for having people make comments. 

But I think energetically, it's like you just don't engage with people like that because you're not going to change their belief system. They want to believe what they want to believe, and it also invites all of us to rise above that and to just not interact. Like, to me, the adage of, “If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.” I think about my mother said that to me growing up. I always think, like, I don't ever want my comments to be perceived as negative. It's like if I have something negative to say, I'm not going to say it. It just isn't worth it. but if you have something positive to say or something that's going to be helpful or beneficial, I think that's great. Just like it seems like over the last couple of days, there's been an uptick in people making comments and my DMs on Instagram and my team trying to make sense of some of these things. 

The point of why I'm sharing all this is if you don't have anything nice to say, just keep it to yourself. I think that's a much healthier way to be. If there's something constructive, if someone and it's something helpful and constructive, that's very different. I think all of us welcome feedback, but people to be mean and self-righteous just for the sake of being mean, that’s no one needs that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's really interesting. The way I reacted was I tried to answer every person and just with kindness and not defensiveness, just hearts and kindness. It's really interesting exercise, I think, for everybody. It's interesting for me to see how I react and what does that say about my feelings. And then for people, if they do take a lens at why they're saying these things, why, because I think often it does come from personal insecurities and things like that, but I was super grateful for the people who are supportive. I got a lot more supportive DMs because I think people, they like to support that way. Yeah, it's interesting and I don't know, I just find it so interesting how thin shaming is totally okay, [laughs] or seemingly okay. Yeah, so, fun times. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I love all these questions. I think they're really, I mean, in some instances I really have to think hard. [laughs] Like I'll say to Melanie, you answer it first and while you're answering, I'll think of my answer. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think next week maybe we still have some good ones, so we might do one more of these episodes. But this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode304. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. I know we talked about a lot of studies, a lot of things, so definitely check that out. And then if you want to [laughs] join us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. So, I think that is all the things and yeah anything else for me, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. By the time this episode comes out, we will have the creatine subscriptions up, so we'll definitely be keeping everyone post about that. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Yeah, and I'll have the switch to more sustainable subscriptions the week after this. So, the links to learn more about all of that is cynthiathurlow.com/supplements for her line and avalonx.us/emaillist for my line and that's to get updates. So, okie-dokie. Well, have a wonderful Valentine's Day tomorrow [[chuckles] and I will talk to you later. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good, bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by Podcast Doctors. Show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner. Transcripts by SpeechDocs. And original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 05

Episode 303: AMA Part 4, Recycling, Extended Fasting, Insulin Resistance, Electrolytes, Coffee, Tea, Glucose, CGM, Fasting Fluctuation, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast and a Whole Chicken plus $10 off!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At  nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!


To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast And A Whole Chicken Plus $10 Off!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

MANUKORA: Go To manukora.com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

15:30 - NUTRISENSEGet $30 and get 1 month of free dietitian support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

19:10 - Listener Q&A: Neva - I’ve been dying to ask, any suggestions on balancing the Fung community perspective of “longer fasts needed to get insulin resistance reversed and for the autophagy needed to reduce excess skin” vs Cynthia’s concerns about longer fasts and especially getting enough protein? This conundrum has been a problem for me.

28:05 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - Is it ok to cycle your fasting times. Anywhere from 14-18
If you consume 10 calories via electrolytes (LMNT) are you still fasting?
Is coffee ok to have while fasting?

For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! 

43:45 - Listener Q&A: Sarah - Help! My fasting glucose is going up! I have been intermittent fasting for over 2 years. I usually eat lunch and dinner and I am low carb. I have been doing my best to eat 100 grams or more of protein daily. I’m 40, haven’t made any huge changes lately. My fasting glucose has been staying over 100 even after 18 hours. In March I had my insulin checked and it was 2, 3 and 5 within two weeks on 3 separate occasions. I would love any advice!

53:20 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

56:40 - Listener Q&A: Natalie - How come some times it’s easy to fast and other times I can barely make it 16 hours. Does age? Cycle? Does/ should Perimenopause change anything about the way we fast. How can we get comfortable fluctuating between 3-5 lbs knowing we didn’t eat that much, yes water weight and bloating, but how can we not let it ruin our vibe. Lol! Random thoughts by a 40-something.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get a grass-fed chuck roast and a whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off. Yes, that is a free grass-fed chuck roast and a whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high-quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high-quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable.

I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild-caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees, and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want.

I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking, this is the most delicious thing ever. And people go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable, and better for you and the planet all at home. Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get a free grass-fed chuck roast and a free whole free range organic chicken, plus $10 off when you sign up today. That's a chuck roast and a whole chicken plus $10 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST, and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a band of beauty member. It's sort of like Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome, this is episode number 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing very well. I actually have a question for you. It relates to, so I have an announcement and I have something that I wanted to share and it relates to a question for you as well. I interviewed a guy named Matt Simon for his book A Poison Like No Other, which was all about microplastics corrupting our planet. And it was mind-blowing and shocking. But in any case, it just made me more and more aware of the importance of sustainability and not creating waste and all of this stuff. I have an announcement about how we're going to change and adjust how we offer subscriptions for AvalonX products. But I was wondering-- do you have subscriptions for your products?

Cynthia Thurlow: The subscription will start on February 10th and we're really excited since there's been such a tremendous response to the creatine. I don't know if we told you that Mark Hyman featured my creatine in his newsletter last week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Did you send it to him?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I had my second podcast with Drew [unintelligible [00:08:20] last month, and when I was out, I brought some with me just to kind of have in case I was going to give it to someone that I thought would enjoy it. And when we were having an off-camera discussion, he mentioned he had just started-- he had been working diligently on strength training and fat loss. I said to him, have you looked at the research on creatine? He's like, I absolutely have. And so, I said, I brought a product of mine, there's absolutely no obligation. He loved it. He gave it to his sister, bought some, and then they featured it in Mark Hyman's newsletter. I was really surprised and very grateful for that opportunity because it led to quite a bit of people purchasing the creatine. So, yes, our subscriptions are going to start on February 10th and it's really going to be a great way to save on a product that I think nearly every person, irrespective of life, age, and stage can benefit from.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's amazing. Have you had Mark on your show?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. He is kind of one of those elusive characters that doesn't do a lot of guest podcasting. I guess you get to a point in your business I know JJ Virgin and I talk about this that people will get to a point in their business where they just don't do a lot of guest podcasting anymore. And I think that's where he is. And so, to answer your question, no, but it doesn't mean that it won't happen, I'm going to cross my fingers and put that intention out there into the universe.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I will as well. That's amazing. That's super cool. The subscriptions are great because they make it easy for people, but then as far as it's less shipping, it's more sustainable. The change that we're making, which we're still locking down the details, but it should be hopefully around February 20th, I think. We're hoping to switch to right now, people get multiple bottles, so we're hoping to switch to a one-large bottle option. Hopefully, that will be live so people can get the updates at avalonx.us/emaillist. And how can people get updates for your products? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so the easy thing to do is to go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/supplements and you'll be able to get information on creatine as well as a little teaser about what the next supplement will be. I'm technically not allowed to talk about it yet, but we're super excited because it's going to be helpful for brain health, metabolic health, and there's a lot of solid research on sleep support as well.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Just as a cap to all of that, I read that book A Poison Like No Other, which I actually really recommend reading the book or checking out my interview when it comes out because it really is upsetting. I didn't really realize the extent that I knew plastics were bad, but he just has all the stats about really what they're doing, but then what's really crazy and this kind of blew my mind. He danced around this but I was listening to an interview last night that made it even more firm. He talks in his book about how recycling is misleading. It's not really doing what we think it's doing and the majority of recycled products just end up in landfills anyway. Last night I was listening to an interview on Rich Roll with Seth Godin and he just outright said that recycling was created by like that it's just a lie. It was created by industry to make us feel better about plastic. He literally says recycling things into blue plastic bins does nothing. Like it's literally created. Again, I got to research this, but he says it was created by the industry so people would feel better about purchasing plastic because they could recycle it.

Cynthia Thurlow: That would make sense, although very disturbing because I think so many of us have been led to believe that if we can recycle it, then it's not so bad. To your point, I was listening to a podcast of Shawn Stevenson's recently and he was connected with Metabolic Mike, who is the podcast host of High-Intensity Health, which is one of my favorite podcasts to listen to because he really provides research and makes it short and relevant so that people can have some takeaways. They were talking about the contamination theory of obesity as a means for why so many people are struggling with weight loss resistance and why we're seeing such a net impact on fertility rates and miscarriages and changes in endogenous testosterone levels. I think for a long time I was always like, "Oh, it's related to insulin resistance, we're such an unhealthy population." It's really the exposure to these endocrine-mimicking chemicals that is so profound. I really look forward to checking that book out and of course, listening to your interview.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I find it all just so fascinating and things that people just don't really think about, but I'm happy that people are taking it more seriously now. It's funny though, I read that book. I'm so happy, my supplements are in glass bottles, but they have plastic caps. I was reading it and I was like texting or calling Scott, our partner at MD Logic. I was like, we have to get rid of plastic caps. I don't know what the alternative is, but yeah, so we'll work on that.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love how thoughtful you've been. I mean, thus far, I think my second product will also be in a pouch. We're trying to navigate healthier options as opposed to a lot of the plastics that most supplements are contained in. There's a lot of nuances and I think that we just try to do the best that we can, but obviously understanding that we don't know at all and that we have to continue to do the work and to learn from experts that know more than we do. Because I certainly feel like it's not a race, it's a journey to make better choices in things we're exposed to in our environment, personal care products and food, and plastics are everywhere. I mean, if you really just sit back and think about it is everywhere. We just think about it as being normal.

Melanie Avalon: So, fun fact, it's literally everywhere. They're on the top of Mount Everest. According to that book, they're at the top of Mount Everest and they're also at the bottoms of the ocean. So, they're literally everywhere. So, yeah, fun times, fun times. I did get really excited because one of our new sponsors, Manukora Honey, which is delicious, it's manuka honey from New Zealand. When I did the call with them because they have individual packets that they send, I was little bit concerned because I was like that doesn't sound very sustainable. But when I did the call with them, they said they actually had completely 100% compostable packaging for those. So, that was super exciting. People can actually get those free if they go to manukora.com/ifpodcast. So, get some manuka honey sticks to try in completely compostable packaging.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, we talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them? How exercise affects them? How fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time, or give yourself a finger prick, which again is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be a revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun.

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Each device lasts for 14 days and of course lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or 12-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allow you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends, do you want to be in the world of CGMs? It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. So, definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

So, today's episode, Cynthia and I have been doing our episode 300 became multiple episodes because we got so many amazing AMA questions and we want to keep doing them because they're so fun and awesome and so many topics. We also realized that I think in the past two or three episodes, we haven't done that many fasting-specific questions. What we're going to do today is we're still doing AMA, but these are the fasting AMA questions we got because when we asked for the questions, we asked for I mean were hoping for non-fasting related questions, but we still got a lot of fasting-related questions, so this actually works out very well. To start things off, we have a question from Neva, and she says, I've been dying to ask any suggestions on balancing the Fung community perspective of, "Longer fast needed to get insulin resistance reversed, and for the autophagy needed to reduce excess skin versus Cynthia's concerns about longer fast and especially getting enough protein. This conundrum has been a problem for me."

Cynthia Thurlow: This is a great question, Neva. I think a lot of this really depends on you as an individual. If you are already metabolically healthy and at a healthy weight, then I don't think really long fasts need to be something that you need to focus on over time. However, if you're someone that is not metabolically healthy, that is insulin resistant, I think that doing longer fasts can be helpful for breaking through plateaus. I think that longer fasts can beneficial for helping with cravings. I think it can be helpful for reducing inflammation and upregulating autophagy. I think there're many, many things that we have to consider when we're trying to balance longer fasts and being able to hit our protein macros. I think that when you look at the science of poor metabolic health and you're looking at sarcopenia and you're understanding that insulin resistance actually starts in your muscles, it's important to then also understand that one of the ways that you are going to help with reversing insulin resistance is reallocating those macros, becoming more physically active, and this is a really good example of the need to experiment depending on where you are in your fasting journey. I've started to speak more openly about this that a lot of times people think fasting has to be the answer for everything. Fasting is but one strategy of many that we can utilize to ensure that we have our health and longevity kind of railed in. When people ask me questions like this, it's always in the context of, I need to know more. Are you at a healthy weight? Are you sleeping well? Do you eat an anti-inflammatory diet? Are you menopausal? Are you perimenopausal? Are you still in your peak fertile years? I really would say that the average woman under the age of 35 shouldn't be doing these really long fasts. Our bodies are just so exquisitely attuned to this kind of methodology or really understanding that our bodies are so sensitive to cues that we take from our environment when we talk about stress.

Unfortunately, I think fasting for many people has now become a strategy that they're really leaning into and doing the extremes. They want to do really long fasts, they want to over-restrict macros in some capacity or another, they don't want to sleep, they want to overexercise, and so the way to answer that question is to say, I would need to know more about your personal circumstances to make suggestions. In terms of wide overreaching comments, I would say it's really dependent on, are you metabolically flexible, what life stage are you in, and what are your goals? So, Dr. Fung and I overlap quite a bit on what we lean into. But obviously, for me, I am all about protein and maintaining muscle mass because that will help in insulin sensitivity and I don't per se see that talked about a great deal. Although most of the insulin researchers, including Ben Bikman will talk about this loss of muscle signaling, loss of insulin sensitivity as being the first site in the body of where we become insulin resistant. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I thought that was an incredibly comprehensive answer. I'm so happy that you pointed out the bit about the insulin resistance starting at the state of the muscle, because that's, like, one of my favorites. I have, like, a list of fun facts about metabolic health. That's one of my favorites because I think a lot of people don't realize that they probably think it starts, I don't know where, they probably don't think about where it starts, but it's really interesting that it does start at the muscle. So, yeah, I just echo everything that you said, which I think is just a slight paradigm shift, and I like how you use the word strategy. Basically, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think we don't see longer fasts as the day-to-day habit lifestyle pathway. Like, longer fasting is not your daily life.

It's a strategy to use with specific goals in mind and keeping in mind the context of everything. Your diet, your current weight, what you're looking for, how much other stress you have. Right now, I'm reading Ben Azadi's book because he's coming on my show in a few weeks. He quoted, I think, some research by Thomas Seyfried, who said, for example, that he thinks if you do, like one long, I think he said seven days fast once per year, that it would reduce your cancer risk by 95%. Again, I don't know. I think that was just his thoughts on it. Basically, it's the idea that you could use longer fasts very specifically with specific goals in mind. I think it can have a lot of benefits. But I also think people can go way overboard and in day-to-day practice, yes, getting enough protein is so, so important. While I'm able to get all the protein in a very short amount of time, a lot of people just aren't able to do that. So, I don't think they're in conflict. I think they're actually just separate goals and intentions and uses.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it's important for people to really understand at a very basic level. We're not asking anyone to have to go out and feel like you've got to research all of these different points. I can tell you, as Melanie can after talking to the experts, it's very apparent that if we really understand where insulin resistance starts from, it just starts to make sense about why it's important to as an example, like, "If you're insulin resistant, walk after a meal that really doesn't require you to do anything special. It's just understanding that with each muscle contraction, your body is using up extra glucose. When people say, I'm insulin resistant, I'm really struggling with this. What's going on? It's like, okay, we have to get back to basics. Let's not make it complicated. I think, unfortunately, what happens is that, well-meaning people sometimes make things so complicated. People don't even know where to start. Ben does a great job making things, making more complicated subjects or concepts, making them very accessible for people, so they can then take action. That's really what it comes down to. We want to be able to provide information so that people can make informed decisions and they can make those changes that are going to have a huge impact on their health.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because there's so much information and then there's so much information and context, and yet we still make these blanket binary statements. I don't know if Jason Fung actually said this, but in her quote that, "Longer fasts are needed to get insulin resistance reversed." I'm saying I'm pretty sure you can reverse insulin resistance without ever doing a "Longer fast." That would help, but it's not the only way.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting because someone on Twitter today posted, what's the longest fast you've ever done? My joking response is always 13 days, but not because I wanted to. I think it also speaks to the fact that finding that happy medium like a lot of people in the health and wellness space are starting to discourage these really long fasts because putting in the wrong individual can really put additional stress and strain on your HPA access and cortisol and other things. Understanding that you can get a lot of benefits from shorter fasts and shorter meaning, like less than 20 hours or less than 18 hours. Actually, the longer I fast, the longer I've been fasting, the less I do really long fasts because I just don't feel like I need to do it. 

If you look at, I always think of Ted Naiman as a good example. He's, I think, roughly my age, very lean, and he talks about this diminishing law of returns after 24 hours. I don't disagree with him because you start to think about what are the net benefits and am I losing muscle. Especially if you're north of like 40, 45, it becomes more challenging to maintain muscle mass as you get older if you're not actively working against that. Why would you do all these long fasts if you're putting yourself at risk for losing exactly the organ that is going to help you maintain one of many, help you maintain insulin sensitivity. Ss you can see, I could talk about this for hours.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. I'm all about it. Okay, so some more AMAs. We got some three quick ones from Nicole. One, "Is it okay to cycle your fasting times anywhere from 14 to 18 hours?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, and I encourage women in particular to adjust their fasting based on where they are in their menstrual cycle and I do like variety. Just like we don't eat the same foods every day, we don't do the same types of exercise every day, I do genuinely believe that there is a benefit from keeping your body guessing, not torturing yourself. I'm not asking anyone to white-knuckle it through fasting. That is not what we are trying to suggest, but I do like moderation. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I agree 100%. Some people do really well with I mean, like me, I tend to do really well with more consistent-- I know I do well with a consistent schedule. Although I was thinking about it, actually, I do naturally fluctuate my window. It's always an evening eating window. Like, last night, for example, I went to a comedy show, actually. Do you know Taylor Tomlinson?

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't.

Melanie Avalon: She's a Netflix special and I actually wasn't familiar with her, but my friend had tickets and then couldn't go, so she just gave them to me. It's like okay, sure, I'll go. Do you like comedy shows?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think I should probably go to them more. There's definitely a lot of health benefits to laughing, but in any case, it started early. I open my window with wine way earlier than I normally do, and that kind of bumped everything up earlier. But then I realized I still went to bed late. I was just thinking about last night that my window was open almost double of what it normally is. I'm not super rigid. Like, it has to be these hours between these times. I just go with the flow if things are changing. In general, beyond that, I agree with what you were saying about a lot of people, especially women can benefit a lot from really changing things up and listening to themselves and the effects of their cycle and hormones. So, yes, definitely. The only caveat I would have is, I think some people and I think we talked about this on a recent episode. I do think for some people who are just starting fasting and they've never fasted before, if they're not adapted to fat burning, depending on what personality type they are, they might do better.

And actually, maybe regardless of personality type, there is a benefit to, I think for a lot of people committing to a window in the beginning because you're making those adaptations. If instead just like go with the flow, it's going to be hard to be intuitive. If you're not a fat burner yet and you're not adjusted to fasting. I think having that regulation in the beginning to become metabolically flexible and understand how you should feel when you're in the fat-burning state and while fasting, I think that's when it can be helpful to be more rigid.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Just like, when I'm teaching women, like, I have IF:45 that I run four times a year. We have a group that they're just in their second week of fasting. I always tell them, until you've got the basics down, I don't mind if you are fairly consistent with what you were doing, but when you get to a point where your body is able to utilize either glucose or fats as a fuel substrate, then you're in a position where you can start varying things. People will know that they're at that point when they don't feel like they're white knuckling through the process like they feel comfortable, they are not having headaches, they have plenty of energy. They're not feeling like they have a slump after a meal. Most people will notice that if they're kind of struggling with weight loss resistance or they've been struggling with cravings, all of the sudden things start to kind of even out for them. So, I 100% agree with you, Melanie. You definitely want to make sure you're fat-adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. She has two other quick questions. One is "If you consume 10 calories via electrolytes LMNT, are you still fasting? I'll just comment on that because I just looked up LMNTs, like their line. The flavored ones are the ones that have calories. For example, their watermelon has five calories in a stick, their chocolate has five calories, but their lemon habanero, for example, has 10 calories, it's really interesting, and I'm assuming that is coming from whatever flavoring they're using. Like with lemon habanero, they're using natural habanero flavor, but then their raw unflavored has no calories. So, I do have thoughts on this. Do you have thoughts on this, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: This is one of those nuances that if you are someone who's metabolically flexible, you're at a healthy weight. Taking in calories during a fast technically is breaking a clean fast. But if you are otherwise metabolically healthy and flexible, I don't think this is something people should stress and worry about. I do find for a lot of women as an example, because I work almost exquisitely with women that this is the type of stuff that can add up. When someone says to me, I'm weight loss resistant, I'm doing all the right things, and we start looking at a daily recall and they don't realize that they've got I mean, five calories-- 10 calories is not going to be the impetus for being weight loss resistant, but not understanding that cumulatively over time, these can be some of the things that add up that could be contributing to weight loss resistance.

It's the 50 grams or 50 calories of grapes that they eat while they're fasted or they're having like a fatty coffee or just these things can add up over time. A clean fast definition of a clean fast, if you're ingesting electrolytes that are flavored with sugars or flavored with nonnutritive sweeteners, technically that breaks a clean fast. Again, it goes back to are you metabolically flexible? If it is, I'm not stressing about that nor should you. If you are weight loss resistant, it's something to consider.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with that. I actually think with the flavors, the issue more for people would be having those flavors during the fast, even if it was zero calories because that signals to the body food type stuff, so I think it can mess with appetite regulation. That's why we've always said on this show, historically, as long as we've been working with LMNT, that the raw unflavored, so the one that I said was zero calories and that's one that has no flavors, that's the one that is clean fast friendly. The other ones we would advocate for within your eating window. And so, this is really interesting. I don't know if this is true. I think I mentioned on this show before, I interviewed Steve Hendricks for his book called The Oldest Cure in the World, and it was the history of fasting, and I talked about it.

We're actually probably going to air that episode on this show because it was just mind blowing. I just want to air it first on my Biohacking Podcast. He talks a lot about the work of Satchin Panda in his book. Satchin Panda does a lot of work on time-restricted eating and in particular circadian rhythms of it and things like that. I'm just going to read what he says because I find this really interesting. Satchin Panda, one of the things he did was he had an app where he had people logging their food intake all throughout the day, and he found out what people were actually eating. One of the takeaways was that people think they're eating way less than they are, not amount wise like time wise. People don't realize, most people are literally having some food enough that they're pretty much in the fed state the majority of the time.

He says most people eating and drinking their last calories at 10:00 or 11:00 PM, this is what Satchin Panda found. "Weren't entering fat-burning mode and repair mode until 04:00 or 05:00 AM and never reached anything like exponential burn or repair before they took their morning coffee with cream at 07:00 AM. Panda has found that just five calories, one and a half grapes are enough to keep us in a fat-making mode for six more hours. Which, I find that I don't know that's a big statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Big statement. It's interesting because there are, I have to believe, well-meaning individuals who tell people on social media that's okay if they consume a bunch of grapes, it's okay if they have copious amounts of fat, it's okay to do all these things. I just remind people that if the average person out there is not going more than 8 to 10 hours without eating during the day, to Melanie's point, you're losing out on opportunities to use up some of the stored fuel. Just to kind of keep that in mind that cephalic phase insulin response is a real physiologic response to things that are sweet on our tongue or if our body anticipates we're going to be eating food. Really thinking thoughtfully about what position are you in? If you're really trying to get a hold of insulin resistance or you're really trying to become more metabolically healthy that you want to lean into unflavored element or save those electrolytes that are sweetened, save them for your feeding window, that's going to be a much better option.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think it goes both ways. One, what you just said, where people put this magical calorie like ceiling and say that if you're below that, it doesn't break your fast, which I don't know where that came from. But then on the flipside, I guess I would need the context of what this research was. It's hard for me to think that if somebody is fasted in the fat-burning state and maybe he's talking about they're not yet in the fat-burning state, but if they're deep in the fat-burning state and then they have five calories, I don't know how that would keep them out of fat burning for six more hours. I just want to know what that research was like what was he measuring?

I think it's safe to say that flavors and such are not going to help you with your fasting experience most likely and there's not some magical like if it's below these calories, it doesn't matter. If listeners would like to get LMNT and get that raw unflavored, they can actually get all the flavors free with their order. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast so, remember the flavored ones in your eating window, the raw unflavored in your fasting. Okay, Nicole has one more super quick rapid-fire question. "Is coffee okay to have while fasting?" I'm guessing Nicole's probably new to our community.

Cynthia Thurlow: Here are my thoughts. If you have healthy adrenals and you're sleeping and you're not super stressed out, I think coffee is incredibly beneficial. We know there are polyphenols in coffee that can upregulate lipolysis and fat burning and fat oxidation. Someone who is not completely stressed out is sleeping well and is not in. Now, I'm going to put this out there. I interviewed Dr. Kyle Gillett for my podcast and he talked about andropause, so andropause is when men go through what's equivalent to menopause. But there's also adrenal pause. Our adrenals are not as stress resilient as we are getting older and so coffee in the right person is a wonderful thing to consume in a fasted state. If you're someone who's super stressed out and drinking that coffee overtaxes your adrenals and it pushes your cortisol up, which sends your blood glucose up, that's not a good thing.

I think it's really always in the context of you as an individual. As an overall recommendation, we do recommend bitter teas and coffee as a great option. Now, again, not coffee with cream in it. We're going to recommend black coffee, bitter teas because those are the things that are going to be beneficial. If you don't love plain coffee, you can add cinnamon which will help with insulin sensitivity. You can also add, like, high-quality salt, like Redmond, that can help with the bitterness. Those are two tips, even though I'm not a coffee drinker that I've learned along the way. What are your thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you answered it from that perspective. In my head, I was thinking about it literally just from the breaking or not breaking the fast. I'm really glad that you went there. I agree exactly with what you said. I'll just expand a little bit on the coffee and the clean fast or not. Plain black coffee would be, "Clean fast friendly." Coffee with cream? No. Coffee with added sugar? No. Even coffee with sweeteners. It goes back to what were just talking about giving your body mixed messages during the fast. Yes, I think that context is really important with what Cynthia said about your adrenals and where your stress levels are. Do you drink coffee, Cynthia? I know we've talked about this.

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not. Neither does my husband. The only person in my house that drinks coffee is my 15-year-old who loves espresso.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have caffeine at all?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a lot. It's something that for me, like, I can drink green tea a couple of days a week, and I do make an effort to do that, but I ice it. I actually brew it and then I ice it and then I drink it with a straw. I've just never been someone that loves caffeinated beverages. I think it can be very overstimulating for me although it's interesting, when I did a biogenomics test over the summer, they're like, "Oh, you're very caffeine tolerant. I was like, really? Because I don't feel super caffeine tolerant. Yeah no, I'm one of those strange adults that does not love coffee. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very as alcohol tolerant, literally, but literally in the genes. Caffeine, not so much. I actually was reflecting on this yesterday with gratitude. Like, I was having so much gratitude for this because historically in college I don't even know how much coffee I drank. I shudder thinking about it. I think listeners know this because I say it a lot, but I just have a spoonful of coffee every morning, literally a spoonful of liquid coffee. I was reflecting with gratitude that I'm not addicted right now to coffee or caffeine. I was like, "Oh, I was thinking about it." I was like, I just wake up and I don't really have caffeine. All my energy is pretty much not from a stimulant, which is a nice thought.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's become normal for people to be really dependent on stimulants to get their day going. I think for me, years ago, everyone knows this, I was an ER nurse, and I had to work nights, and I would drink Diet Pepsi, which all it did was upset my stomach. I've just learned that for me, I do better just with water, a lot of water, and I stay really well hydrated. There's a lot of other things I do to kind of get me going in the morning, as opposed to being dependent on a stimulant, which there's no judgment. It's just not the way I like to feel in the morning. It's not my happy place. But you will see me drinking green tea at least four days a week because there're a lot of health benefits from it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there are a lot of health benefits to moderate coffee drinkers. I think if I was the type that could do that and didn't struggle with my sleep, I probably would but like I said, I don't process caffeine that fast, and so it's just not ideal for me. I do like it kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier with longer fasts. It's nice to have it in your back pocket. Like the night when I got up really early for Taylor Swift tickets and was sleep deprived, and I had coffee that day and I was good. It's nice to have it to pull out when you desperately need it, so, yup.

Okay. Another AMA fasting question. This is from Sarah. She says, "Help, my fasting glucose is going up." Oh, and by the way, we really need to answer Sarah's question because I think she posted this in the AMA. I think she posted it on her own in the group. She DMed me about this. She was like, "Please help." So, Sarah, we're going to try to help you. She said, "My fasting glucose is going up. I have been intermittent fasting for over two years. I usually eat lunch and dinner and I am low carb. I've been doing my best to eat 100 grams or more of protein daily. I'm 40.I haven't made any huge changes lately. My fasting glucose has been staying over 100, even after 18 hours. In March, I had my insulin checked and it was 2, 3, and 5 within two weeks on three separate occasions. I would love any advice.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Sarah, this is a great question. I would say without having more information, you're perimenopausal because you're 40. This is when we start becoming less insulin sensitive. That doesn't mean that you are insulin resistant per se, but you are becoming less insulin sensitive. I start thinking about, are you sleeping enough? Is it high-quality sleep? Are you lifting weights? Are you consuming an anti-inflammatory diet? I can't necessarily tell from what you're sharing here. Gut health is really important. I see a lot of interrelationships with really looking at the gut microbiome as something that can impact blood sugar levels. I also think about you know Melanie, I started off the podcast talking about toxins in your personal care products, Food and Environment is another one that podcast that I mentioned was Shawn Stevenson, the Model Health Show, and it was him and Mike Mutzel talking about metabolic health and also changes in fertility and the contamination theory of obesity.

I just think about other things like are you exposed to mold? Are you exposed to mycotoxins? Are you leptin resistant? I mean, there's a lot of different things that can impact what's going on. Just looking at overall labs, like what's your progesterone doing, what's your estrogen doing. There're a lot of different things that can look at this. When you say that you've been checking your blood sugar, it could be as granular as, has your glucometer been titrated? Do you need to have it looked at to see? Do you need to change your strips? There're so many things that can impact why your blood sugar is not optimal. I would say those are good things to look at and just understanding in the context of other questions we've answered on this podcast today, muscle mass is really important. Understanding that insulin resistance actually starts in the muscle.

So, are you doing resistance training? Because I still think a lot of women heading to their 40s are still doing, like, "I've got to go run 5 miles every day." I'm like, you would be better served by getting in the gym and lifting weights three days a week than doing these really long runs. The other thing to think about is we're coming off the tail end of this pandemic, and I see a lot of women who are stressed, and the stress is bumping their cortisol up, and accordingly, your glucose will go up. Really getting granular and honest with yourself about what your stress management style is like, and it's not five minutes of meditation. It really needs to be practice. Things that you do every day, as an example, I get out in nature every single day, walk my dogs, no sunglasses. When I'm done exercising, I get on my PMF mat and that is part of time that I a lot every morning to do those two things in the context of everything else that I do because it brings me so much joy. It's such something I really look forward to because it helps quiet that sympathetic nervous system. So, those are my thoughts. Just based on what you've shared, Melanie, what are your insights?

Melanie Avalon: So, where I would start, and really this is for anybody who's having this issue. What Cynthia was saying about the glucometer, it can be really hard if you're just looking at a single snapshot of a blood test at the doctor, or even if you have a glucometer where you can prick your finger. That's just one moment in time. Like Cynthia said, so many things can affect it. If anybody's struggling to figure out their blood sugar levels, I would 100% recommend doing at least a two-week round of a CGM. It's the most eye-opening thing. I honestly think everybody should feel like mandatory, like life required, that everybody does two weeks of CGM at some point because what it does is it's a device that you wear on your arm, it's painless to put on, and it measures your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid, and it gives you a picture of your blood sugar. Is it every five minutes? Regardless, it shows you how your blood sugar is changing.

With that, you can actually find patterns and you can see is your fasting blood sugar actually high. It staying high or is it dropping and dipping and then going up? What's actually happening? It gives so much clarity to what might be the cause. We love a company called NutriSense and they're actually a sponsor on today's episode. You can listen to that ad for more information, but you can get $30 off and one month of free support from a dietitian because something that's really cool is you can actually, through the app, talk to somebody who will talk to you about your findings. So that can be actually pretty helpful. Just go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST and that will get you $30 off and one month of free dietitian support.

If it is something where a lot of people do benefit from getting a subscription with that because it can be really helpful to go longer than two weeks to really get a good picture. That's where I would start, just to see what the actual data is and then see what might be the factors that are causing it to be high. Because her insulin, how do you feel about her insulin being 2 is low and 3 is low?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, my general recommendation is between 2 to 5. It could be impacted by where she was in her menstrual cycle or a lot of different factors. I love that you brought up the CGM because that can give a much more complete picture. For me, it's like glucometers, just like blood pressure cuffs are super helpful, but it's like at that one specific time, that's when you're getting that metric. I do agree fervently that having a continuous glucose monitor is an even better option because you can then see the real net impact of sleep, stress, exercise, etc., on your blood sugar in real-time, as opposed to having to prick yourself 10 times a day. And some people prefer that. I personally don't like that at all. I'll be totally transparent.

Melanie Avalon: And this is like a really good case study example. I don't know how often Sarah was checking, but for example, she's saying my fasting glucose has been over 100 after 18 hours. Some people will find when they're using a CGM, that when they're fasting, like 12 hours and 13 hours and 14 hours and 15 hours that it's low, and then when they get even longer into the fast because of their stress hormones from the fast, that it actually starts going up again. So that might be a pattern. I'm not saying that's what's happening with Sarah, but I know that's a pattern that people often experience, and that's something where that would be something to address and fine tune and try to make that not be the case. It might be something where you think if you just checked it at 18 hours that it's been high that whole time when actually it hasn't. That's why CGM can just be a game changer. Are you wearing one right now, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I am not. I'm taking a break. I used one gosh 18 months straight. I just got to a point where I'm very aware of the things that will raise my blood sugar. There're things I do conscientiously throughout my day to make sure that I can manage and mitigate a blood sugar response. The foods that did for me cause blood sugar rises that were beyond my norm, like plantains, which is so sad because I love plantains or whether it's gluten-free flowers and a cookie or cake. I just don't eat those things very often. For me, it just has created an awareness of the net impact of taking a walk after exercise. I don't necessarily feel like I need to wear them all the time. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because that made me think of another benefit or something that people can troubleshoot with a CGM as somebody DMed me about this the other day on Instagram. Some people will be fasting and randomly get cravings, like sugar cravings or hungry, and they don't know why. That can be really beneficial to be wearing a CGM because you can see if when you get those cravings, are you having a blood sugar drop or are you not. That can help you kind of figure out what might be going on there. I haven't worn one in a while, actually, I have it in my calendar. I want to put one on pretty soon. It's on my to-do list. I have to put one on when. I actually am dressed up and going out so I can make a reel from it. That's what's been keeping me from doing it. Do you switch arms when you do it that long?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. Left is my preference because I'm right-hand dominant, but I do switch off. And it's funny. I have one more and I've been trying to decide when I want to put my last one on, so I've been debating. I'm like I don't want it to be when I'm away on vacation or if I'm traveling. I want it to be when I'm home so I can kind of get a really good sense of all the things that I do during the day to stay as metabolically healthy as possible.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the timing of it. Got to figure that out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

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One of my good friends, who is a doctor uses these devices on his, shall we say, manhood for benefits there. Yes, it can help in that department as well. I honestly could not imagine my life without Joovv. You will just feel so good using these devices. People also post all the time in our Facebook group of their pets gravitating towards the Joovv because intuitively they just know that it's good for them. The reason Joovv can address so many things related to health is because it actually affects our cells on the mitochondrial level. Basically, it makes those cells perform better. When those cells are performing better, everything just works better. That's why, yes, Joovv can help with your energy as well.

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Okay, I think we have time for one more question. Lastly, we have a question from Natalie. She says, "How come sometimes it's easy to fast and other times I can barely make it 16 hours?" Does age, cycle, or perimenopause changes have anything to do with the way we fast? How can we get comfortable fluctuating between 3 to 5 pounds knowing we didn't eat that much? But we have water weight and bloating, so how can we not let it ruin our vibe? Random thoughts by a 40-something.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Natalie, this is a great question, and yes, this is the blessing/curse of perimenopause the 10 to 15 years preceding menopause. So, from my perspective, there are reasons why it is harder to fast in the luteal phase when progesterone predominates versus the follicular phase, which is right after you've had your menstrual cycle, and the time preceding when you ovulate. It's much easier to fast in the follicular phase when the estrogen predominates, you're more insulin sensitive. You can go away with harder workouts, you can likely last longer. I spend a lot of time talking about this in my book and on a lot of podcasts, including this one that I'm really a fan of women being very cognizant of where they are in their menstrual cycle in order to ensure that they have a lot of success with fasting or taking a break from fasting.

I'm not a fan of fasting five to seven days preceding your menstrual cycle. You can definitely do 12 hours or 13 hours of digestive rest without any issues. And, yeah, this is why I don't recommend people weigh themselves every day. You can have fluctuations of 3 to 5 pounds due to water, due to macro changes. Did you have more carbs? Did you have less carbs? Have you been exercising? What's your sleep like? What's your stress management like? The last little tidbit that I'll add is that perimenopause is when sleep becomes more important, stress management becomes more important. Lifting weights becomes more important. It also becomes more important that we're leaning into anti-inflammatory nutrition. If you're not already doing some of those things and you're looking to kind of change things up, I would encourage you to lean into those. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: This is so interesting. I almost have the opposite advice, which works well because I think different things work for different people. Because you were saying don't weigh yourself every day.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I think it's like a once-a-week thing. And this is what I can tell you after working with thousands and thousands of men and women over the past 20 years, there are people who have a personality type that they can weigh themselves once a week as a check in. I always encourage people to be very mindful of how do your clothes fit, how do you feel? But there are certain types of personalities. It's not specific to a gender, that it's a control mechanism. Their whole day is they're either having a good day or a bad day based on what that number is when they step on their scale. There're so many things that can impact that number that I always say if you're that type of person and your entire day is a win or a loss based on what that number is, and you're not going to have a good day if you've gained 1 pound, that's not a healthy mindset. So that's where my concern stems from, is do you have a healthy relationship with the scale? Because affectionately, I always say the scale is a liar. It is not a reflection of a lot of other metrics. This is where I will tell people to get their body fat measured, like doing a Bod Pod, which if anyone's not familiar with that, it's a little egg-shaped device, but it'll actually measure how much muscle mass to body fat you have. And that's a much more accurate metric. Actually, my trainer, that's what she uses and that's what I use, I probably do it twice a year. That actually gives me better information than just simply stepping on a scale. Unless you have a scale that is giving you a metric about body fat percentages.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, my answer it actually is similar. It just has a slightly different manifestation because I agree 100% with everything that you just said that the weight fluctuates. There're so many factors that go into it. People can get caught up in this granular number, kind of like the CGM. They see this one number at this one time and they attach all of this meaning to it when it might not be an accurate picture of what's actually happening. I think for some people there actually is a benefit to weighing every single day. The interesting thing is you have to do it for a little bit to start seeing the trend. For some people, if they weigh every single day, tracking it in an app, there's an app called Happy Scale that's really awesome. If you weigh it every single day, it'll show your actual weekly average. You can see your trends over time and you can see what's actually happening. And so, it kind of shows you what your "True weight likely is?" And it requires a bit of data. That's why I'm saying it takes little bit to actually get the benefit from this and kind of change your mindset surrounding it, because when you actually commit and I'm not saying everybody should wear every day, but I'm saying this might help some people, if you do something like use Happy Scale, weigh every single day, after a few weeks, you'll actually be able to see that those numbers that look like you gained weight actually don't mean anything. It'll make like graphs so you can see over time what's actually happening. I think for some people that can really help. Other people might not be able to get beyond what Cynthia was saying, where regardless of knowing the overall trend, they just get caught up in that number. In that case, I don't think they should be weighing every day. I think you just really need to know yourself where you are. I know Gin was obsessed with the Shapa scale. Shapa, have you used that?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: It's the one that gives you a color rather than a number. It's grays to greens. The color indicates if you've, like, stayed the same, if you've lost weight or if you've gained weight. It also uses a similar to Happy Scale, it's going based on your average, not on that weight right at the moment. A lot of people really like that. But yeah, I think just knowing that there're a lot of factors going in can be really, really helpful. She says she's low carb and eating lunch and dinner, but not what she's eating. What you're eating can have a huge effect as well. Even things like sodium content in food and processed foods versus not. If some foods are inflammatory for you that might have an effect. There're just a lot of factors that go into it. I just think having kindness for yourself and this is where working with a therapist can be really helpful as well. I don't know what I would do without seeing my therapist every week.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that you brought up the mental health piece because I think women as and we're all guilty of this, I'm by no means am I perfect at all. I do think that there is a certain amount of grace that we need to give ourselves. I think for women, in particular, women that are in perimenopause and menopause, when all the things that we used to do no longer work well, it can be a huge mindset shift. Like, I'm in a good place now, but 10 years ago or even eight years ago, I definitely was and I was like, what's going on? Understanding that with these changes in our bodies, we just have to make some adjustments in order to optimize our health and wellness. I wasn't even aware of that type of scale that you mentioned Gin liked so much that whether it's red light, green light, or yellow light, I think that's a better alternative to just one metric as a number.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. So, okay, well, we did not get through all of our fasting AMA questions, so we will pick that up next week, and then if we get through them, then we can do some fun AMAs as well after that. Not that these aren't fun, but some other topics. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com they can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode303. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out and then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I think that is all things.

Cynthia Thurlow: It sounds good. For the listeners who've been sending me DMs, we will definitely be answering some hormone questions. We got such a wonderful array of topics to go over. We've been just trying to keep them really well organized, but we will definitely be answering some of those hormone questions too.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 29

Episode 302: AMA Part 3, Life Hacks, Zone 2 Exercise, Easy Healthy Food Swaps, Travel, Space, Claustrophobia, Bees, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LOMI: If you want to start making a positive environmental impact or just make clean up after dinner that much easier, Lomi is perfect for you! turn Your Kitchen Scraps Into Dirt, To Reduce Waste, Add Carbon Back To The Soil, And Support Sustainability! Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

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SHOW NOTES

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21:00 - MANUKORA: Go To Manukora.Com/Ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

25:00 - Listener Q&A: EIleen - What would consider your best life hack?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #175 - Seth Stephens-Davidowitz

29:00 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - What are some of the other habits or things do you do you’ve maybe never talked about on the pod? Like infrared saunas, ankle/wrist weights, etc. but new ones.

42:30 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - Like switching to Redmonds or more natural salts or single source olive oil, what are some other relatively inexpensive and accessible changes people can make for the better?

DRY FARM WINES: Low Sugar, Low Alcohol, Toxin-Free, Mold-Free, Pesticide-Free, Hang-Over Free Natural Wine! Use The Link dryfarmwines.com/melanieavalon To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

51:30 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

53:15 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What is your favorite vacation and or what’s your bucket list trip?

1:00:25 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Given the opportunity to go to space, would you go? What would you want to study there?

1:05:15 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Do you listen to any non health related podcasts?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret and I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting, aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt, but it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while so you can imagine how thrilled I was, when a company called Lomi by Pela, reached out to me wanting to sponsor the show. Normally, I have to think a little bit about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device. It is incredible. Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around 6-8 weeks and maybe even up to a year. But nope, with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants.

Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours and you can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods, and packaging that are Lomi Approved. There's the Grow mode that's 24 hours. It's low heat with a longer duration and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible. Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with and if you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well, turn your food waste into dirt with the press of a button with Lomi. Use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's L-O-M-I dotcom slash ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the new born. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook Group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

Lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I feel like it's been so long since we've talked.

Cynthia Thurlow: I know. [laughs] I was about to say during the holidays, appropriately so we all take a break from things we do within our business. I was texting with Melanie before I got on, and I was like, we're doing this episode, and this is the format. It's amazing how just a couple of weeks, you kind of feel like you're getting out of practice.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this episode airs end of January, but for us recording, we just started January. How was your New Year's Eve?

Cynthia Thurlow: Very low key. I'll be completely transparent with you and with listeners that last year we were in Costa Rica, which was wonderful. But my boys were pretty adamant that they did not want to travel for Christmas. Because of poor weather, my mom was not able to come as early as she had wanted to and had to leave a little bit early as well. She lives in a rural part of the East Coast, and so they always get more snow and ice. We, the four of us, I mean, I have teenagers, we all stayed in, we had an amazing dinner and then we watched movies and I was asleep before the ball dropped. With the exception of my teenagers, of course, they go to bed. They're like nocturnal animals, they're up really late and they sleep in every day. My husband and I were in bed before the ball dropped, and we've had so many years of really late New Year's Eve parties and it was really nice to just go to bed and have a really nice meal and just have it be low key. Like we didn't have a lot on the calendar and after the book launch and how busy 2022 was and all the travel that I did, even in December, it was just nice to slow down. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine was really good. My sister and I went to a really fun party at the Waldorf Astoria. I love any chance to dress up really fancy, so if there's ever a situation where I can maybe find something to do that, I'm all about it. So, I don't like being out crazy and I don't like loud and I don't like crowds, and I actually don't like-- Even though I'm a crazy late night owl, I don't like being out at midnight. Like, I don't want to be not at my home. It's not normally something I would gravitate towards, but we had a blast. It was good.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm good. I think that's what we all want is if we're going to start celebrating the last day of the year into the first day of the new year, celebrating it, however, makes us happy. I think that's really important. Like, when we lived in Northern Virginia, there was another family, probably our closest friends from our old neighborhood, and for years we would just have New Year's Eve at each other's houses and we would make these incredible dinners. Our boys were all about the same age and we had years where all of us were up till 02:00 or 03:00 AM in the morning just having fun amongst ourselves and so, I agree with you. In my 20s and probably into my early 30s and my teens, I did a lot of late-night parties. I agree with you, as an introvert, I'm completely happy with less people and less noise, and just kind of eating a really good meal and just being around people that I really like.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Very excited for this year and all the things. I feel like there are great things in store.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, absolutely. By the time this episode comes out, I think we're going to have the announcements for my next supplement, which is exciting. I know for you, you just had a new supplement that came out. How are things going with berberine?

Melanie Avalon: So, well. I'm just so grateful and so excited that it's really resonating with listeners and I think it's doing a lot of good and oh yeah, that was something that was really exciting. There were a few different articles that came out over the holidays and one was in Yahoo News. It was like a countdown of wellness products for 2023. It's really exciting to see things like that. I mean, it makes me feel like a real entrepreneur. I don't really feel like a real business woman, but then when things like that happen, I'm like, "Okay, maybe." [chuckles] In a line up next to other, "real things." So, I'm excited. I don't think I know your next supplement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's myo-inositol. So, for listeners, if they're familiar with that. It is a supplement that is very well researched and one that typically we see associated with metabolic inflexibility, insulin issues, insulin resistance, polycystic ovarian syndrome. There's a lot of really good research about sleep and brain health and in keeping with my theme, which is related to metabolic flexibility and brain health, that is the next supplement. I've been taking myo-inositol, it's a bit of a tongue twister to say it, so we're trying to come up with ways to make it a little more approachable inositol. It's one form of inositol. We're coming up with ways to make it easier for people to say, but I've been taking it every single night to help with sleep and I've been recommending it to most if not all of my patients and clients. There's been some pretty incredible breakthroughs not only with reduction in insulin resistance, but also sleep latency, so able to fall asleep faster. If they're waking up in the middle of the night, it's able to help with that as well. That will be the next product that's coming out. It's probably going to be another powder. I'm kind of a sleep stacker. There's usually a couple of products that I will take together and I put this in my water at the tail end of my feeding window and sip on that along with some magnesium L-threonate along with my other sleep stack. This is the first of several products. There will be another one coming out fairly soon after that's going to tie into that sleep thing that I'm really excited about.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Okay, that's really cool. I was familiar with inositol., but if you had asked me, I would not have been able to tell you the benefits at all. So, I learned a lot just now and then I wasn't familiar at all with that version of it, myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting because most of what people think about when they consider that particular supplement is, "Oh, it's great for PCOS" And it is indeed, but it's inflammation reduction and I think for the bulk of our population, which we know only 7% to 8% of our population, and I'm so speaking way outside the context of just this podcast, is not metabolically healthy. This is one of many aspects and strategies that can be utilized and it's really well tolerated. I think that's really important because there are certainly some big gun supplements that are out there where people, they may move the needle a bit faster, but they may also have the issue related to side effects. This is gentle and to me it's cumulative use that will help with sleep. So many middle-aged women really struggle with sleep and it's not just about replacing hormones. There're other ways to kind of layer in support so I'm really excited.

For listeners, you probably don't get the opportunity to read all of the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on with supplement creation, but Melanie has been a huge supporter and has given lots of objective, which is what real friends do. Objective input with regard to product launches and messaging. So, thank you again for convincing me this is the right direction to go in, as opposed to white labelling, which for listeners means for a long time I was white labelling supplements created by Designs for Health as my own. Which you can do legally, but this allows me to completely tailor everything to my specifications. I would imagine that your specifications and mine are superior to a lot of other products that are on the market in terms of what we want or don't want in our supplement line or powders.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. Like 100%. It's so funny because I honestly can say the versions of the supplements that I've made, there's not anything else on the market that I would trust. I wouldn't even take like with serrapeptase in particular, I wouldn't take any of the alternatives on the market. There's some magnesiums and some berberine that I would but it's so nice just with the craziness of the supplement industry to finally be able to make exactly what we want to make, and also to educate listeners about these things. So, I'm just really, really grateful. It's amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting to me. I have always been a proponent of talking to patients about quality of supplements and why it's important to do your due diligence. Even if you go into Whole Foods, which is not a knock-on Whole Foods, you can find good quality things. You can also find a lot of junk. As an example, there was a product that I had sent my husband to Whole Foods to pick up and he's very diligent about checking food labels, but got home and we realized the product had soybean oil in it, back to the store it went. The point I'm making is that you have to be really diligent. What's added to the supplements? What types of oils are they using, if at all, getting really granular and clear. For me, and I know we're in alignment in this, I would rather stack one supplement at a time than have combinations of supplements. There're a lot of good products that are out there that are different types of adaptogens and different types of products, but then you don't know what actually works. Whereas if you're stacking one product at a time, you can determine how do you react to that product, how do you feel with that product before you layer in something else and I think that's very insightful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I could not agree more. That's actually one of my main things as well. It's so cool that we're both aligned with that, the single ingredient thing. Not to say that I wouldn't make blends and like, the magnesium is a blend, for example, but it's all magnesiums. There's so many longevity blends and it's like all these different things or digestive blends and it's all different things. Like you said, "How do what's doing what? And then you can't tailor accordingly. Some of the ingredients might be working for you and some might not and yeah, I'm just like control freak.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well. I think it's also my clinician background because I learned that certain drugs were really efficacious and very effective. Sometimes when there're a lot of medications on the market, as an example, sometimes you can get a blood pressure medication with a cholesterol medicine at the same time, they put them together. Yes, that means someone's taking one less pill, but then if they have a side effect, we didn't always know what was driving it. We had indicators based on what the side effects were, but it sometimes got it harder to tease out. I would drive my drug reps crazy because I was the person that would use single drug agents instead of using the "newest and latest."

I would tell them, well, show me the data that this is more efficacious because this drug cost my patient $5 and what you're recommending is a drug that's going to cost them $50 out of pocket every month and they're on a fixed income. They're retired. For the same purposes, I try to be mindful and thoughtful about what the next needle mover is going to be. What are things people can use throughout the day? Like, as an example, for people that have polycystic ovarian syndrome, the indications for inositol, as an example, are twice daily dosing versus someone that is just using it for sleep properties. So, we're giving people parameters with which to move within, but also giving them, for the most part, single supplement options at a time just so that it makes it easier to add things together. That's just I think ease of use is huge for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned the threonate because that will probably be my next release, which a lot of listeners, actually, who bought Magnesium 8 when it launched. The launch special included a special code for the magnesium threonate. That's a situation where I wanted to separate it out by itself because of its specific benefits for that type of magnesium. Which is, as you're familiar with it, crosses the blood-brain barrier and can really help with sleep and relaxation. That's a situation where it's like, we really want to have that as a standalone so, yeah. For listeners to get updates for both of us, if they want updates for AvalonX supplements, which are mine. They can go to avalonx.us/emaillist or they can text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And when you text that number AVALONX, you will get a 20% off one-time use code, which is awesome. How can people get updates for yours, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: We decided to make it easy because no one knows how to pronounce or even spell myo-inositol, we're doing www.cynthiathurlow/supplement so that people can get on those lists. We're just trying to make it as easy as possible because for this creatine launch that came out, which has been great. Well, by the time this comes out, we'll be talking about where people can buy into monthly subscriptions or every-couple-of-month subscriptions trying to keep it as simple as possible. So that no one's navigating, trying to find it on a website, which we live and learn. We are learning more with each launch. What not to do and what works and what doesn't work.

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Honey in general has those properties. Honey also has hydrogen peroxide activity which can have a beneficial effect on your gut and health, but manuka honey in particular has a different natural antibacterial compound called MGO that only comes from the nectar of this manuka tea tree. They actually measure it. I think it's really funny. They call it non-peroxide activity. The nutrients in manuka honey can help support optimal immune and digestive health. I personally found that when I was using manuka honey, it had an incredible effect on my gut. I became really obsessed with finding the best of the best because there is a lot of controversy out there about manuka honey, and it can be difficult to make sure that you're getting a certified verified source that is actually the stuff that you want.

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Okie Dokie. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners we got so many amazing questions when we asked for AMA. So, we're just continuing in this vein. Probably going to do this one and maybe one more episode just for a grab bag of goodies of topics, health and personal and all the things. So, to start things off. Okay, this is from Eileen. "What would you consider your best lifehack?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay. I'm going to not say fasting [laughs] because that would be expected, "High quality sleep." It's not a sexy answer, but I fervently believe if you are getting high quality sleep, everything else falls into place. Your blood sugar, better hormonal regulation, better food choices, ability to exercise and have great mentation. I would say high quality sleep is probably the one thing that is foundational to our health and really important. I think that I didn't fully appreciate until I really got into the research, why sleep is so critically important? Actually, as a healthcare provider, it's disturbing that so many healthcare providers are expected to skimp on sleep in order to take care of patients. I say this lovingly, we do it without question when we need to, but when we're telling our patients to get high quality sleep and to go to bed earlier and not be on screens until 02:00 in the morning and we're doing exactly the opposite. We're not mimicking good behavior for our patients, but that's probably my number one foundational element to anything that I do. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That's a really great answer and it's really interesting that I think we frame the question differently. I didn't even think about diet or fitness or physical. I was thinking more in like mental side of things, so that's really interesting. Although intermittent fasting would be a really good answer, I think. Because of just, I mean it really is the ultimate lifehack in a way, because not only does it address the dietary issues that we face today with metabolic syndrome and the obesity epidemic and all these things, but on top of that you also get back time, you lose your anxiety surrounding eating. However, that is not what I chose. [chuckles] I picked gratitude, actually, because I think we have so much fear and anxiety today and stress. I love the concept that you can't be in a state of gratitude and a state of fear at the same time. I really just think it's the ultimate hack for immediately changing your mindset. Like literally, if you're stressed, think of something you're grateful for and at that moment you will not, at least at that literal moment, be stressed and then on top of that just the benefits surrounding it health wise are incredible. Even things like loving, kindness, meditations. I was reading about that in a book that I'm reading right now about the brain actually, and studies they've done on that and its effect on health biomarkers and mental health and wellness and brain health. So, yeah, I pick gratitude as a lifehack.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's really important. Ben Azadi is a good friend and he talks about vitamin G as a way to be thinking about gratitude every day. I agree with you that it is an underappreciated lifehack. It is certainly something that has been played out in my life over the past four years. Anytime I think things are getting tough, I have to remind myself that I have so much to be grateful for and it always allows me to kind of pass-through whatever discomfort I'm experiencing emotionally or otherwise. Definitely something, if you're not practicing that regularly, definitely give that a consideration.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think also linked to it the focus on the present moment that it causes. I was reading about I might have mentioned this on the show before when I interviewed Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, who wrote the book Don't Trust Your Gut, all about data and not him, but there was a study where they had people do an app and it checked in randomly all throughout the day and asked them what were they doing and were they happy. They found that people-- this is really interesting, you're happier thinking about something neutral in the present moment. It might have even been bad. I have to double check. It was definitely neutral then you are thinking about something happy in the future. Basically, focusing on the present moment can just have an incredible effect. I like tying that in as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. It's all good.

Melanie Avalon: It is. Actually, since sort of related, since we're talking about hacks, Mary Jane said, "What are some of the other habits or things you do that you've maybe never talked about on the podcast? Like infrared saunas, ankle and wrist weights, etc., but new ones.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think Zone 2 training is something that I've been very focused on probably the past year in conjunction with regular strength training and then doing Pilates or Solidcore. Zone 2 training, I have to fully admit that my functional medicine doc and my trainer both are really into Zone 2 training. Keeping your heart rate, for me being 51, that means my heart rate is under 129 while I'm exercising. Enough that you can comfortably have a conversation, but you're still exercising. For me, a lot of what I do is walking. I know exactly what cadence, if the weather is bad outside or raining, I can walk on my treadmill inside, and I know exactly where my heart rate is. If I'm walking too fast, I can slow my pace down. Same thing with walking hills in my neighborhood. I'm in a very hilly part of Virginia that, for me, I think has really been very impactful. I probably haven't talked about it because it doesn't sound like a particularly sexy topic. But one that I think most people, if they've been conditioned to believe that doing a lot of HIIT, which HIIT should be brief, like 10 minutes long or if they're doing chronic cardio and they're wondering why it's not working for them physiologically or in terms of body composition whatever it is they're trying to improve. Zone 2 training for both my physician and my trainer is very important, especially for where I am life stage wise. Actually, Peter Attia talks about it quite a bit as well.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny you're talking about that. I was just getting hit with all of these things I've heard Peter Attia talk about who I'm still trying to book for the show because he has a new book coming out.

Cynthia Thurlow: I tried pitching him. They responded to me. I was really excited. I tried very hard because I was like, “I am a Hopkins alumn, I was there when he was training. Although he was in the bowels of the hospital and I was in the ER, but you know what? I just wanted to interject. If you haven't already listened to the latest podcast with him, with the neurocognitive, it's like a 2 hour and 40 minutes podcast, which is super long. I've listened to it twice. I've recommended it to nearly every person I know, non-clinician and otherwise. Really superlative podcast, it completely blew my mind about different types of proteins and how we approach neurocognitive disorders. Really smart female physician whose name evades me because I'm terrible with names.

Melanie Avalon: I did listen. I didn't realize until the very end that she's in his practice. I don't think he mentioned that in the beginning. He might have, I'm so annoyed at myself. I had pitched them early December. And so, when I'm writing an email that I want to be the perfect email, I put in my email address so that I don't accidentally send it soon to somebody else. I realized when I sent it to them, I didn't actually send it to them because I was going back to follow up. I was like, I haven't heard back. I went to follow up and I was like, "Oh, so that explains a lot." So, I just resent it. Did they book you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well. What they said was a very nice gentleman actually apologized for not answering for nine days, which I was like, that's a good sign. I explained the podcast reach and who I am and my background, and how we both shared time at Hopkins and how I was a huge proponent. I said, if there's any way I can support his book launch, that's kind of how I left it. [laughs] They said, "This all looks really good. We'll be back in touch." This is my thinking process, I would imagine when you're at that level, like Peter Attia level, I'm assuming he's not going to be doing tons and tons of press. I think he's going to be selective. Even if I don't get him as a guest, I will still be super, super supportive of the launch. I'm just kind of leaving it out there in the universe that I'm completely open to the possibility. But I will not be disappointed if I am not one of the people that interviews him. I'll just be super excited to listen to him on other people's podcasts. I know he was not wanting to do the audiobook. [laughs] He wanted to have someone else narrate it. I was cracking up listening to him explain that he actually did narrate the book. I was like, "I'm really glad that you did that." But it is, as you as a trained thespian, I'm sure you probably can't appreciate this, but I had no idea how much work goes into an audiobook in terms of just the degree of proper alliteration of words and diction. I actually said to the producer, because my producer was particularly picky, which is her job. I was like, "What do people do that don't articulate or don't have good diction?" And she just laughed. She was like, "They do a lot more recording than you will be doing." And I was like, oh my gosh. So, yeah, very humbly. I just say I'm not a thespian anyway. I'm down a rabbit hole, but I hope that you get to interview him. I will certainly be super supportive if that happens, but I'm kind of, like, cautiously optimistic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have no idea if this is going to manifest. It's like my dream, we shall see.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll try not to fan geek too much if I get to talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: I'm always prepping shows all the time. I have this one evergreen document called Peter Attia, because I'm listening to him all the time. Anytime he says something where I can tell it's a subject that's really random, that he's really interested in and I'm also interested in. And he has, like, an interesting thought, I write it down. [laughs] I have, like, two years' worth of random insight from him that I can tie into the interview.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's awesome. No, I think he's intense and brilliant, and just very intense. Like, my husband now listens to Peter Attia. My husband's an engineer, it gives you an idea of how his brain works. Sometimes he walks around and he's like, "Whoa, that guy's intense." I'm like, "Yup." [laughs] That's who you want as your physician. You want someone who's intense and methodical, it's all good.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So someday, someday. So, my answer is for the hacks. It's interesting, a lot of them I have talked about in the show. I guess I shouldn't say, though, I mean, my exercise related one, or it's not hacks, it habits and things that you do. My exercise one is Emsculpt, but I've talked about that all the time, the muscle building. I can comment on it, that I have started doing different body areas with it and I've seen really incredible effects. I started doing inner and outer thigh and it's kind of profound how it-- I think it does things to you and your legs that you would have to do, I think very specific exercises for a long time to see benefits. I'm loving that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Does it hurt?

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't hurt. You pick the intensity so you can work your way up and you get used to it. It's unpleasant and depending on which area it is, some are worse than others. Like the glutes, those are the easiest. I've been doing those most recently and those are pretty easy. Inner and outer thigh actually are not that bad. The outer thigh a little bit, it's more unpleasant, but they can adjust the intensity and you work your way up.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all very interesting. I know very little about that.

Melanie Avalon: It's incredible. [chuckles] It literally builds muscle, like literally and burns fat and I really see the difference. Actually, that reminds me of something I hadn't written down for this, but I started doing of peptides, which I had not done before, so injections of peptides. I think that's something that's pretty cool because I was having some knee pain. Okay, and then another one. This is so funny. I had this on the list and I couldn't even remember if we had booked them for this show, but I just realized they are actually sponsoring this episode. I did not plan this. I couldn't even remember if they were sponsoring this show or not in comparison to my other Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I am obsessed with my Lomi. Do you have one, Cynthia? Did they send you one?

Cynthia Thurlow: They did not send me one.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'll have to email them. Friends listen to the ad that we're running for them. I'm obsessed. I bought one all by myself for my parents for Christmas. That's how much I love it. It's a composter and I've been wanting to compost for a long time, but it seemed very intimidating and complicated and I didn't want to get into that. When they reached out, I was really excited. This is revolutionizing my experience of my food and of my trash waste habit because I eat so many cucumbers as listeners know. I would fill up these trash bags all the time with all these scraps and everything. Now I just put them in my Lomi every night. You run it overnight, it's dirt in the morning, it's mind blowing. You can use that dirt outside. You can grow with it. They come with these little pellet things that you can put in to make it more microbial rich. Yeah, I'm like all about the composting and it's so quiet, you don't even hear it and it's easy to clean up. You don't even have to clean it that much. I don't clean it in between cycles I clean it, like, once a week, so composting, Lomi.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well. It's interesting. So, the neighborhood we lived in in Northern Virginia, was very strict. They wouldn't allow us, my husband likes to garden, so Todd is like this renaissance man. He kind of does a lot of different things, and he really wanted a composting area in the backyard, and they wouldn't allow us to do that. Now we're in a different neighborhood. They're strict about some things and not about others. I think having a compost, he would be so happy.

Melanie Avalon: It goes inside in your kitchen, and it's like the size of maybe two Instapots together. If you could take the Instapots and make it little bigger or Crockpot and make it twice the size. It's sleek looking, so you can compost without doing everything outside.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so cool.

Melanie Avalon: Our offer is you can go to lomi.com/ifpodcast and use the promo code IFPODCAST that will get you $50 off. Cannot recommend this thing enough. I'm obsessed. So, yes. That's something new. I think I had one that I talked about before in the show, but I just want to emphasize it because I upgraded my version of it a little bit. One last one, it's funny because you were saying that your answer, Cynthia, was not a sexy answer. I have a sexy answer for this question. I don't know if I've shared this on the show or if I should.

Cynthia Thurlow: I was going to share my V Fit, but I'm still in the beginning stages.

Melanie Avalon: Your what?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's called a V-Fit.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It is essentially a device with red light therapy that's supposed to help build up collagen and elastin in your vagina.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Cynthia Thurlow: I just got it. I've used it twice, but Mindy Pelz has been suggesting I do this for a year, and I bought it, and my husband was like, "Oh, my God, you've got to be kidding me."[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Do you stick it in like a tampon?

Cynthia Thurlow: It looks like a dildo.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll take a picture of it for you.

Melanie Avalon: Large.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And it has red light.

Cynthia Thurlow: But, like it's only probably, like, four inches that's inserted inside. It's just designed to be comfortable to hold.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. [laughs] That's cool. I support that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I was going to say, if we're going to talk about that's, probably the most interesting thing that I have recently started trying. But I haven't been using it long enough to be able to give a full report, but I have friends that swear by it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. We should try to get them as a sponsor. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. That would be nice. Right?

Melanie Avalon: I'll reach out to them. My related answer, if kids are listening, maybe pause for a second [laughs] for the moms because I know they're listening with families sometimes with their kids in the car. Mine would be ever since, I interviewed Dr. Stephanie Estima, she had her seven-day orgasm challenge that she said would have a profound effect on your health. And I started that, I mean, that was a while ago. That was probably a year ago. I just kept it up as an everyday orgasm challenge. It's literally because how much I'm a planner and a scheduler, it's literally, like, scheduled in to my life, my daily life.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important, but nothing else. One of the things that I think we've talked about tangentially on the podcast is my PMF mat. It's like I crave it in the morning and now I crave it in the evening. My husband walks in and just laughs at me because I'm lying on this mat and I'm usually got, like, a blanket on top of me and I'm just so relaxing and he just laughs at me. I'm like, "I need 30 minutes of this in the morning." He was like, "Whatever makes you happy."[laughs] I try to do it at night because it's a time that I'm not doing anything else. I'm kind of gearing down, it's so relaxing, and good for your mitochondrial health.

Melanie Avalon: I love it, all the things. Okay, so I had another one, but I think I'll use it in part to answer this next question. This is the lifehack episode. Mary Jane said, like, "Switching to Redmond's or more natural salts or single source olive oil, what are some other relatively inexpensive and accessible changes people can make for the better"? I will say really quickly, "Thank you, Cynthia, so much." Cynthia sent me some wonderful olive oil for Christmas, so thank you. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, I think for me, I'd like to keep it really simple. Like Melanie, mentioned, I sent her olive oil. Let me be clear, it is hard to send Melanie gifts because she has so many cool gadgets, and I couldn't send her scallops. It was literally impossible to do. That was high on the list, and that just wasn't feasible and cucumbers.

Melanie Avalon: So adorable that you were going to do-- just that you thought about that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. So, high quality olive oil I think is really helpful. I do like Redmond's, and for full transparency that's the only salt we use in our home. I also think about using like I'm a fan of make some things from scratch and if you find a brand of product, whether it's a dressing or ketchup that you like, there's this company called Primal Keto. I have no affiliation with them. It's a women-owned business, and they have this spicy barbecue sauce that I use instead of ketchup. For me, that bottle will last months because no one in my house wants it. It's just I like it and so I use that in lieu of making my own barbecue sauce or Chosen brand avocado oil. They do have dressings, which I occasionally will use when I'm lazy. I know you don't like olives. I love really high-quality olives. I am a little bit of an olive snob. Sometimes I'll buy hearts of palm that are already done, same thing with roasted red peppers. Again, like a high-quality brand that doesn't have any chunk in it. Those are the kinds of things I'll lean into like salted macadamia nuts, just things that are easy, single ingredient or little-to-no ingredients that make my life a whole lot easier that are fairly inexpensive. Like nuts are not inexpensive, but if you portion them out and you go to Costco, they have salted macadamia nuts with no junk oils and they are amazing. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I love that. To stay in the food realm, this is a hack I've done for a while, which is especially if you can't afford or if it's hard on your budget to have higher quality meats, I like getting the leaner cuts of meats and then making the fat come from olive oil or coconut oil or MCT oil. You can kind of get the best of both worlds because at least for me, I feel like the majority of the issues with conventional agriculture for livestock, a lot of those toxins are in the fat of the animal. So, if you get just really lean meat, then you can add organic olive oil or organic coconut oil and things like that where that will last longer. I kind of like that little hack. Also, for organic produce, the Environmental Working Group and looking at their Dirty Dozen and Clean Fifteen. So, if you can only afford organic for some fruits and vegetables, then you can choose the nonorganic for the ones that are on their Clean Fifteen and then get organic for their Dirty Dozen. So, I think that's helpful. Also, food still, because she's asking what are some easy, inexpensive accessible things you can do to feel better? I don't think people realize, especially going out when they eat at restaurants, how once you learn how to order, to make it healthier, it's really not that hard. I think people think it's picky and difficult, and you're not going to be able to find something at restaurants. Once you get the system down because it's a very easy system, you can make most restaurants provide a dish for you that will be healthier for you and make you feel better the next day.

The first step is just like for all the meat dishes and entrees. If you're getting steak, salmon, fish, asking that it's not cooked either not in oil at all, or if it is that they use olive oil. Because a lot of them, a lot of the restaurants use vegetable oils and seed oils. That's like a really easy swap that you can make. I always just ask for plain and then you can add salt and pepper, but I tend to go really extreme with that. Also at restaurants, I always just ask for the vegetables that I want and they usually have it even if it's not on the menu. Like spinach, for example. I'll ask for like steamed spinach and even if it's not one of the side dishes they have, usually they can modify. Like restaurants are pretty good at that, so I think that's a hack.

Also, when you're getting wine, when you're out at restaurants, look up all of the wines. I know we're a big fan of Dry Farm Wines around here and really Dry Farm Wines I feel so different drinking it because it's low sugar, low alcohol, tested to be organic, free of pesticides, molds, toxins, all the things. It's the only thing I drink at home. If listeners want a bottle for a penny, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that will give them a bottle for a penny. However, when you are out at restaurants and bars, look up the wines, just type in the winery and then type in organic and Google and you'll find immediately which ones are organic or not. And you'd be surprised, there're a lot of wineries that are practicing organic practices. They just don't have organic certification because of all the hassles and everything with that. That would be like USDA Organic, so backtracking with the wines. If you want to get as close to Dry Farm Wines as possible when you're ordering out, pick European. I usually favor like French and Italian and then look up the winery, type in organic, see if it says that they're practicing organic. If you want to go one step further beyond that to really try to mimic Dry Farm Wines, look up a picture of the label. We'll type in the actual wine and type in ABV, and it might come up with the alcohol by volume.

Dry Farm Wines are all 12.5% or less, so look for ones that are 12.5% or 13% wine. If you can't find it that way, look up the label, you can usually see the alcohol on the label. If you want to go the final step, you can get the Vivino App and look up the wine and see if people are ranking it as dry or not, just taste wise, the you can find ones with low sugar. I've been so impressed with myself. I've gone on quite a few dinners recently where we bought a really nice bottle of wine. It was really up to me to just research and try to figure out which one I thought would be very Dry Farm Wines-esque. Every time it tasted like Dry Farm Wines and I felt good the next day. So, that was a long education about how to order wine at restaurants.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, that's so helpful. The one thing that I would encourage everyone to not feel any sense of guilt. I think we as women more often than not feel guilty when we're advocating for ourselves in restaurants. I actually tell people, I have a seed oil allergy, so they take it really seriously. And it's surprising like you can get your steak or your chicken, or your fish or whatever you're having. I have colleagues in the health and wellness space that do the same. Generally, if I tell people that, they take it pretty seriously. I think seed oils are one of the easiest things to try to avoid or just ask like what is the dressing made with, what are they cooking your meat in or your fish in? It's not surprising that more often than not, they're happy to cook it in butter or they're happy to find an alternative and as Melanie suggested, more often than not they have more vegetables than what's on the menu. So those are great suggestions.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for saying that. About the-- not that it's like standing up for yourself, but it can be intimidating. The main pushback I usually get from servers is they just don't believe me that I'm going to like the way it tastes if I order it that way. I'm like, "Listen, this is what I like. Trust me, I will love it." Oh, here's a hack you can do if you are low carb. We talked about this on the show already. I think you can order an appetizer as a savory dessert. Get like another round of salmon or something. Just let the kitchen know early on. and then just two more quick things

One, Castile Soap. I use Cove Unscented Castile Soap from Amazon. You can use it for so many things. I use it to clean my face, for the dishes. You can make laundry detergent out of it. You can make washing machine stuff with it. But yeah, Castile Soap is incredible. And then very last thing. I've talked about this on the show as well, but I am doing it more and making more and more adjustments. If you replace all of your plates and bowls and stuff with very heavy alternatives, you get a nice little workout every night when you are moving your stuff around. So, I use like, cast iron bowls. I got this cast iron Le Creuset, Harry Potter Casserole dish that I keep my cilantro in because I eat a lot of cilantro. It is the heaviest thing. It is so heavy. It is overwhelmingly heavy. I get cilantro out back and forth multiple times throughout the evening. It integrates some physical movement into your daily life. So, I'm all about the heavy things.

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I'm ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie, or actually we'll drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It's important to note that it's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you're traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out.

Melanie Avalon: Now we have a question from Laura. This is of a different topic and she says, "What is your favorite vacation and/or what's your bucket list trip?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, this is probably one of my favorite questions and anyone that knows me knows that I live to travel. It is one of my favorite, favorite things to do in the world, and I hope my children develop a love and appreciation for travel. I've been fortunate to have been a lot of places. I would say my favorite vacation I've taken with my husband was Rwanda. We've been to Africa several times and I was surprised at how much, I mean, I knew I was going to love it, but Rwanda was so clean, the people were so gracious. Seeing the apes up close was life changing. It was just like one of my favorite vacations.

And then I would say with my kids and my husband, Eastern Europe this past summer. I know Melanie and I have talked a lot about this. Vanessa lives in Prague. I was humbly stunned at how much we loved Prague. We loved Eastern Europe. We were just awed by how wonderful the people were. It was beautiful. The food was great. In terms of what's on my bucket list, I've got a lot of things, and there are going to be trips that we're going to take, my husband and I will take when the kids are in college. We've just decided that some of these trips are just too far and I need to know my kids are in a safe place before I leave. Because it would be too much to ask a family member to be at our home for a couple of weeks. I would say probably top of the list is New Zealand and Australia. My husband did a lot of Asia travel when we were first married, and I wasn't able to go because I was working as an NP back then. We started having a family very soon into our marriage.

I would say, for me, really seeing the highlights of Asia, I'd like to go to Southeast Asia. I'd love to see Singapore and Hong Kong and then go to Cambodia and Vietnam. Those are probably towards the very top of the list. Beyond that, like, Argentina and Chile are definitely up there as well. Those are the ones that the Asia, New Zealand, Australia trips are going to be longer trips so they're also in there. As well as Botswana and Namibia, which are parts of Africa that I've not yet seen but we really want to go to. How about you? I know you're not as much of an avid traveler [chuckles] as I am, but that was one of my favorite questions.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's funny. Growing up I travelled a ton and my family still travels because we have family in Germany, and so we would go to Germany and then we would go to another country. Yeah, now I get it's like my Achilles heel, honestly, I get anxiety surrounding travel, and I'm a lot better now. I'm making baby steps, but it's not my favorite thing. If I could just pop up somewhere and then pop up back in my apartment and go to sleep at night, of course I would. It's the whole everything. Like how it affects your sleep and your digestion and all of that. It's something I'm working on all the time, especially with my therapist. My favorite place, this is even with all of the places we've been internationally, I am obsessed with EPCOT and Disney World. I'm really, really obsessed.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a happy place.

Melanie Avalon: It's so happy. Disney World in general, I'm just obsessed. I would actually just love to go back there. Interestingly, New Zealand actually would be that's the first thing I thought of. I would love to go back to Paris. This is such a weird reason. Well, A, I loved it when went, and I loved seeing the Catacombs, and I loved just St. Paris. I want to go back now when I'm not as intimidated by the world. When I went, I was in high school and I was very much intimidated by like social clicks and things like that. Paris is just the cool place. I would like to go now where like that stuff doesn't matter to me. I just feel that would not be a thing in my head, if that makes sense, I felt intimidated by the city.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny how for me, I didn't grow up with parents that were able to take us on big vacations outside the United States. The first time I left the United States was when I was 25, so certainly old enough to be able to do that. I feel like every decade of my life, I get different things out of travel, whether it's in the United States or outside the United States. Now, I'm at a point in my life where I just notice a lot more things. I'm much more sensitive and attuned to what's going on than I probably was when I was younger, when it was just like, "Oh, I want to go here, and I want to go there, and I want to do this." I definitely savor more when I travel irrespective of where I'm going. I may really sit and pay attention to the flowers and the trees and be less focused on the big things. It's like, suddenly the little things have become the big things.

I hope that you go back to Paris. It's such an amazing city. I always say, I'm such a Francophile. I love the architecture, and I've never experienced Parisians being rude to me, but there's just something very cool about the culture. And to me, I just kind of savor how differently different cultures or different countries live their lives. The Parisians are just much like New Yorkers. There's just a certain je ne sais quoi. There's just such a unique way that they appreciate the way that they live their lives, and the way that they focus in on certain metrics over other things. The other thing that I think I really appreciate when I travel is a lot of the way Americans live is a byproduct of, they have to live in a big house, they have to have a big yard, they have to have a big car. When I travel internationally, I'm like, "I could be happy with a lot less and just do more with my life." So, obviously, that's a very personal decision, and there's no judgment on what I'm saying. When I travel to other countries, I realize most people don't live amongst a lot of stuff. They're just very grateful for the things that they have and that can be very transformative.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love that. You would love my sister. She's a minimalist and she goes everywhere, like everywhere. She's always traveling. She travels everywhere with a tiny suitcase for weeks. How do you do that?

Cynthia Thurlow: You do laundry in your hotel room. We've started doing that, actually. I'm going to London with my cousin, who's one of my favorite people in the world in early February. She's a big fashionista and I told her I was like, "I'm bringing a carry on." That's all I'm bringing. I'm like, whatever I wear, I'm wearing. I'm not stressing about it because checking bags when you travel can be a little dicey. And sometimes it's easier to travel with less and just get your laundry done at the hotel, or wash it in your hotel room so you don't have to worry about bringing too much stuff. That's why I always believe, like, the capsule wardrobe is a thing when you travel. So super helpful. So, yeah, your sister is definitely ahead of the game.

Melanie Avalon: I literally will. If I have to go stay at a hotel downtown overnight, I bring a massive suitcase, so I have work to do there. Actually, speaking of my sister, this is not my sister, but it's the same name. Danielle said, "Given the opportunity to go to space, would you go? What would you want to study there?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, God. I would not want to go to space. I'm admittedly one of those people, I grew up in New Jersey and Great Adventure was very close to where I grew up. If anyone's familiar with Central New Jersey, I grew up at the shore. I did the rollercoasters. I did every probably unsafe, so imagine in the 1980s and 90s, probably not the safest amusement park to go to. I've done it all, but I've learned I actually don't like being that out of control. For me, I would not enjoy not being in control of what was going on. I will leave that to the astronauts and the people that are interested in space travel. I am terribly claustrophobic, although I deal with it. I would not want to study anything. I don't mind studying things here on Earth, but I would not want to go study other people, or planets or things. Because the claustrophobia would be a big issue for me, which probably I haven't talked about on this. I get into elevators and I have to really do a lot of mindset work to not get uncomfortable and sweat because I just don't like having a lot of people in my space. Have I ever talked about that before.

Melanie Avalon: About the claustrophobia.

Cynthia Thurlow: My weird quirkiness about, yeah claustrophobia.

Melanie Avalon: I'm claustrophobic. I don't think we've talked about it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would not be a good space person. I will leave that to the experts.

Melanie Avalon: Have you taken the test? It's like the phobia test. There're two types of claustrophobia. Did you know that? It'll tell you which one you have.

Cynthia Thurlow: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. So, would you like to know the two types? Because okay, this made me so excited because I was taking the test, and there were these things that would list that freak me out, and I was so happy because I was like, oh, my goodness, this is like a thing. It's not just me panicking about this. In the claustrophobia one, it's things like in an elevator, which actually doesn't bother me. Are you bothered by an elevator.

Cynthia Thurlow: If there're too many people in the elevator? Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, see, so that actually doesn't bother me. We probably have the two different types. Then there're things like in a straitjacket, would that bother you?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Okay, so we have the two different types. This one that was on there was made me so happy. Something that will make me panic, like panic is if I am trying on clothes in the dressing room and I can't get the shirt off. Do you have that experience?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I don't think that would bother me. It's definitely, I think to me it's a personal space thing too. I'm definitely very cognizant of personal space again, because I was in patients spaces all the time. So, I was always very cognizant of being in people's spaces. Yeah, when people are too close to me, I'm like strangers. I should specify friends and family different, but strangers in my personal space on an elevator, I don't love that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you probably have the conventional form of claustrophobia. What people think of with claustrophobia, which is being in small spaces. Mine, which I thought was claustrophobia, they still said it is, but then they have like a subtype. It's actually fear of suffocation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh. I don't have that problem, thankfully.

Melanie Avalon: So, all the things that I thought were claustrophobia, like getting stuck in an outfit or being in a straitjacket, things like that or actually it goes back to the suffocation fear. Isn't that so interesting?

Cynthia Thurlow: That is very interesting. I did not know there was a distinction.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, me neither. So, to answer the space question for me. In theory, I would love to go getting there that moment going up, I feel like I don't think I'd be down for that so much. I'm really stressed out by two things. One, the bathroom situation. I just don't think I can do it. I realized I'd have to be carnivore. I'd have to just get rid of bowel movements mostly, and I would not want the effects on my muscles, the lack of weight bearing exercise. I got to wait until we got like a gravity thing going on up there. I would want to study the aliens for sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Of course, you would.

Melanie Avalon: One last thing. This is actually very interesting health fact that I just learnt. Did you know when astronauts go to space, they often get sick? Like viruses and things like that, which doesn't make sense because they're not exposed to other people and viruses. They think it's probably because when people go to space, their immune system goes down for a lot of reasons. Likely a major part of it might be the social isolation and that makes these dormant viruses that we all naturally have in us that our immune system normally suppresses, flare up. Astronauts often get sick from viruses already inside of them when they go to space. Isn't that interesting?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they get a reactivation of the virus. Interesting.

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah, fun times. I guess neither of us will be going to space then.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, never.

Melanie Avalon: Here's one last fun one to end on. Do you listen to any nonhealth-related podcasts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. Although, admittedly not a lot. Actually, when I saw this question, I immediately went to my library to see what are the nonhealth-related podcasts I listen to and so I listen to-- so I guess it depends. Like, there's a continuum. Jenna Kutcher's Podcast, which is The Gold Digger and then Amy Porterfield's Podcast, the name of which evades me, and Mel Robbins, which is more mindset, but I just find for me at the stage of life I'm in, I want to learn so much that I would be lying if I said I listen to those podcasts on the regular.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's kind of where I am. I have four or five that I never miss. There are others that I'll kind of bounce around, like, listening to them. I would be lying if I were to say and it's not that I don't work on mindset. I do, but I'm usually listening to a book, like the mindset books I listen to, and I lean more into those than listening to a podcast around, like, mindset or nonhealthcare-related stuff. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, most of mine are health and wellness. Although, interestingly, I've been listening to podcasts since middle school, and I got hooked on podcasts when I started listening. I don't listen to it anymore, but it was called WDW Today. It was all about Walt Disney World. I lived for that podcast. I would listen to it every single day. I was obsessed with Disney World like obsessed. Now, really the only one is I listen to Joe Rogan and half the time I listen to guests, where it is health and wellness, but sometimes it's not. Like, I listened to one the other night with the beekeeper woman, Erika Thompson. I think it was 3 hours about bees. It was so fascinating. I learned so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I think for both of us, we're very cerebral and we love to learn. I always jokingly tell my husband that if I took out the household responsibilities, the kids, the dogs, and I could just learn, I would just nerd out all day long. He sometimes will say to me, "Can't you just unplug your brain?" [laughs] Just read for pleasure and I'm like, I have one book I've read in the last year for pleasure, really just like a nonfiction book, but I really enjoy learning that actually brings me joy.

Melanie Avalon: I do, too, and that's why I love podcasts. I love learning just random stuff. Did you know, you've probably never seen a male bee?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did not know that. Aren't they the workers.

Melanie Avalon: The workers are females.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? Where are the male bees? See, I don't know anything about this obviously.

Melanie Avalon: They're just there for basically reproduction and when they're doing their thing they have this reproduction swarm hub thing and it's way up in the sky [laughs] and the queen goes up there, it's crazy. I learned so much about bees. Yeah, so all the worker bees and the ones out with the flowers and doing their stuff, those are females.

Cynthia Thurlow: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The book I'm reading right now is so interesting. It's called The Status Games. I just thought about it because it's about how we really judge wanting to have status or wanting to be in a social hierarchy, and we think it's bad. But basically, she makes the case that it's all evolutionary and the reason we have serotonin has to do with hierarchies and social dominance. Oh, that's why I thought about it because she talks about the hierarchies of different species and matriarchies versus patriarchies and it is fascinating.

Cynthia Thurlow: It is. Melanie and I are well suited for one another. We're at different life stages, but I jokingly told my husband the other day, to his horror, I was like, maybe when the kids are done with college, I'll just go back and when I'm retired and get a PhD and he was like, why? I was like, because I would just love to continue to learn. Now I'm saying that and I may decide I don't want to do that, but just like, from the perspective of continuing to learn. I always love learning, but now people have so many options. They don't necessarily have to go back to school. You could just do continuing education. Like, I thought a bunch of classes. There's a yearlong class with [unintelligible [01:09:27] that I signed up for because they were having a big sale. This is one of the big functional medicine schools and I signed up for it and I was like, okay, this is going to make sure I'm getting my continuing medical education. It means I'm learning new things. I'll be able to share with our listeners, all the extraneous things that are floating around.

Melanie Avalon: No. I love it. I love that we have that in common. Well, so much for getting through half of what we had left.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Just know there are so many good questions. I have to tell you that there is one person in particular, is it Danielle.

Melanie Avalon: Who asked like a million questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, but they're good questions. I was like, wow.

Melanie Avalon: We had a lot of really good questions. I posted again because I wanted to get a few more and I was like and were getting a lot of fasting-specific questions, which I actually kept and saved for another episode. Maybe next week we'll do those and then we'll come back to this. In any case, so I asked for some more nonfasting-related questions and this girl Danielle and the group shoutout, she gave us 20. They were amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really good questions. I think she said she was a teacher, so bravo. They were some obviously all great questions. When I read through these, I was like, oh, I've never talked about this on the podcast or a podcast. This is a fun question to be asked.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because I'm looking at our line-up and most of them are not Danielle, but the last two we did were Danielle. Okie Dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Oh, I should mention this was not on purpose. I was talking about the bees. I just realized that another sponsor on today's show besides Lomi, the composter, is Manukora honey, which makes manuka honey. So, listen to that ad as well. So, manuka honey, I first found it when I was having a lot of digestive issues. Honey by itself has a lot of health benefits, has good effects on the gut due to its hydrogen peroxide potential, which is very cool. Manuka honey actually has other compounds that are different from normal honey. Actually, when they measure it, they call it non-hydrogen peroxide activity or something like that. It can have profound effects on GI health, on the immune system.

I've been researching manuka honey for a long time. A company, Manukora, reached out to us about partnering, and I was really excited because I love manuka honey. I had a call with them last week. It was interesting because there's a lot of controversy surrounding manuka honey because people think that some of its fake and there's all these different rating systems, and how do you're getting what you're getting? So, when we met the brand, I was just thinking, please let them be legit and real. I met the founder and talked with their company, and they're so amazing. They're doing incredible things. They're sustainable. They're really passionate about the bees and the honey, and the health benefits. They're just now expanding to the US market. They actually got an Erewhon, which is cool. So, if you live in LA, you can check them out there. Definitely, listen to our ad for them because you can get free honey sticks. You just go to manukora.com/ifpodcast. That's M-A-N-U-K-O-R-A dotcom slash ifpodcast, definitely don't eat the conventional honey. There are some good honeys in the grocery store, but like, the cheap stuff, just don't eat that. I learned a lot in the episode with Joe Rogan about how adulterated conventional honey can be in the grocery store and how it's basically just like sugar, water, and additives and not what you want. So manuka honey, Manukora [unintelligible [01:12:58].

Cynthia Thurlow: As soon as it arrived, my 15-year-old took it out and tried it immediately and gave it a thumbs up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. It's like a honey that you've never experienced. It's so good. Okay, well, this was absolutely wonderful.

If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode302. They'll have a full transcript so definitely check that out and also links to everything we talked about. Because I know we talked about a lot of products and things like that, so that will be helpful. And then You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love this format. I look forward to doing this a couple of times a year.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Super fun. Yeah. we'll have to decide if we're going to try to speed through the rest of them next time or alternate or we'll decide. This has been great and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 23

Episode 301: AMA Part 2, Celebrities & Movies, Calcium Supplements, Interview Guests, Dislikes, Travel, Eating Habits, Exotic Meats, Secrets, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 301 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

MANUKORA: Support Optimal Immune And Digestive Health With Manukora. Delicious, Raw, Sustainable, Traceable Manuka Honey From New Zealand. Manukora Superpower Honey Is High In Antioxidants, Prebiotics, And The Natural Antibacterial MGO Compound. Go To Manukora.Com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

4:15 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

12:25 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - Celebrity crush and your go-to movie?

16:45 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - If they were to make a movie about you, who would you want to play you or if you were to star in a movie who would you want to act with?

19:00 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - Name one celebrity or person of notoriety, living or dead, with whom you’d like to share a meal & conversation.

19:45 - MANUKORA: Go To manukora.com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

23:30 - Listener Q&A: Brittany - Calcium. I would love to hear how you both feel about supplementing vs not.

27:10 - Listener Q&A: Elaine - Do you ever totally disagree with your interview guest? Are any disagreeable with you?

30:35 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - Most embarrassing or awkward moment during an interview

33:15 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - How many of the 50 states have you been to?

34:45 - Listener Q&A: Hollie - How do you cook your scallops and how many cucumbers and blueberries do you really eat in a day. Do you eat anything else other than the previous three mentioned?

35:00 - Listener Q&A: Mariah - Curious how you consume your ginger and turmeric

37:45 - Listener Q&A: Melissa Hello! I want to know what Cynthia Henry Thurlow eats (I know that Melanie Avalon eats scallops & cucumbers  ). I’m a 51 years old female with 50lbs to loose. My window is 3pm to 9pm. How does a picky eater get in enough protein? My main source of protein is chicken & eggs. 

42:20 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - Your “toxic trait” as my students would say (area you need to grow in or some bad habit you need to work on)

44:05 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What is something that we would be surprised to learn about you?

54:40 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

57:40 - Listener Q&A: Eileen - Thoughts on the information going around (originating from TikTok possibly) that alcohol stops fat burning for 36 hours?

1:01:10 - Listener Q&A: Becky - I heard you mention on one of your older podcasts, that you don’t produce enough acetylaldehyde dehydrogenase. I have the same issue, as do some of my kids. I was wondering if you also get a red face ( ie “Asian flush” ) when you drink? And have you found anything that helps, other than not drinking at all?

Remedies for a hangover-free 2018

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #171 - Dr. Nayan Patel

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

1:04:20 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - most recent text: who is it to and what does it say 

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 301 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends, we talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them? How exercise affects them? How fasting affects them? How do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time, or give yourself a finger prick, which, again, is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun.

You can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more. And you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one-month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement. Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting and so much more.

Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or twelve-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allows you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends, you want to be in the world of CGMs? It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. Definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare, and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 301 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well. Still starving, off a little bit jet lag, but doing good. I'm just excited to decompress over the next two weeks. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing well. We're recording this a little bit in advance, but when this comes out, it will be near the end of January, but I'm really excited about the New Year, 2023. I feel like there's a lot of exciting things and potential. This is an interesting random question before we jump in. I was talking with a friend, actually, with Jon Levy the other day, and I don't remember what brought this up, but we were talking about the concept of when you have projects that you're doing and how do you feel after completion. When you accomplish a goal or a project or something you've been doing, do you have a feeling of sadness or a feeling of, like, now what? Or a feeling of what next? Or what is that experience like for you? I don't really get that experience. When I complete something, I'm just really excited and ready for the next thing. I don't ever really feel like, "Oh, that's sad or what do I do now?" I'm always just excited to do the next thing. How about you? If you have a project or something?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, I think about a lot of business travel I've had purposefully for different events. I'm always so grateful for the opportunities that for me, I'm always like, yeah, that was awesome. What's next? I'm happy and grateful, but I'm always looking forward and not looking behind, so I don't get disappointed even when things like, as an example, I did a business trip up to Chicago in November for an event with a colleague of mine, and the event wasn't at all what we expected it to be. I just said listen this just validates what we want. This just further provides clarity about what direction to take our businesses in. From my perspective, I'm always looking forward. I'm always viewing things from a very positive lens and being very grateful because I acknowledge that we have opportunities that not everyone else has. I would say that the glass is always half full.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, same. I also feel like I'm the same like I'm looking forward, not backward, but also things really last with me. I still feel really grateful for so many things that happened so long ago. I don't think they lose their allure. I was also reading a book last night because I'm just thinking about, like, a positive mindset and all of that. It's like Catch-22, but apparently, if you don't naturally have a positive mindset, you can rewire your brain to become more positive. The catch is that you have to want to do that. It's like if you're stuck in a negative mindset, I think it would be hard to-- if you're like a pessimist, that's what it was about. It was about optimists and pessimists, and could pessimists become an optimists? They can, but they have to want to. I don't know what that experience is like in their head. If they're naturally a pessimist, they might not want to become an optimist. I don't know.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I mean, I've got a couple entrepreneur friends or just people in my life that are like, the sky is always falling, they always view things from a pessimistic lens. It's hard for me to understand coming from a place of negativity when something really good has happened. I agree with you that it's very likely that they can go from being pessimist to being optimists, but it requires a lot of inner work. I think for many people, they're just not in a position where they can per se do that. It's something that they could certainly invest in over time to transition to a more heartfelt, grateful perspective as opposed to one that's always looking at the negatives. It's not to suggest all of us don't have a bad day or a bad mood or you're just having a crummy moment, but the optimist is always going to figure a way out. They're not going to stay in that kind of fixed mindset.

Melanie Avalon: So true, sort of relates. We are continuing our Ask Me Anything episode from episode 300, our celebratory episode because we got so many incredible, amazing questions and they're just fun, but they also relate to health and wellness. We're just going to keep on answering these until we get through all of the ones that we got. I'll start with one by popular request from Cynthia because she wanted to answer this and I do too. Actually, there's three and they're all related to a similar topic, so we can do all of them. First one, Theresa wants to know what is your celebrity crush and your go-to movie.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I have a thing for Charlie Hunnam. Do you know him?

Melanie Avalon: Who is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Claim to fame as Sons of Anarchy? He's not even necessarily in that show like the greatest actor, but there's just something about him physically that I find so attractive. He was in the most recent rendition of King Arthur. He's British, he's blonde and he's hot, so I'll just leave that there. He's my get-out-of-jail card. Not that I'll ever meet him, but he's just a very attractive human being. I don't think I have a favorite movie. I think I have groups of movies that I've enjoyed throughout my lifetime. This probably makes me sound like-- I think I've always been more of a book person than a movie person. I have a cousin who went to film school at USC where Melanie went for undergrad. He'd be so disappointed to hear me say that.

I think I'm old school in terms of like 80s, a lot of the Steven Spielberg movies and George Lucas movies. I love retrospectively thinking about Indiana Jones movies. I mean things that my kids can watch. I don't have to worry about something obscure popping up that I then have to explain to them. I would say trilogies, things like Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. I love, like, the Harry Potter series we've watched multiple times. We've read all the books, but things that I can really lean into and just enjoy and savor well-written characters. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Celebrity crush is Johnny Depp.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, how funny. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love Johnny Depp. I was very much invested in the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard Trial. It was like the most intense real-life TV show. Like, I was literally just watching the court cases, like day after day the court trial. Go-to movie, it's one that you mentioned, Lord of the Rings is my favorite. Do you have a go-to Christmas movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, I love, "Why am I forgetting the name of it?" The one that has Hugh-- Love Actually. Love Actually is a favorite. What's the movie where I'm terrible with names Melanie, this is like a pathologic problem. I'm thinking of the couples that kind of switch places.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, The Holiday.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thank you. I would say those are like, happy kind of holiday movies that we watch every year. I love Home Alone because my youngest is kind of exactly like Macaulay Culkin was at that age, and he would be that child. I would say those are probably, like, the Heat Miser, Cold Miser. So, like the old animated.

Melanie Avalon: That's my favorite out of all the animated ones. I love that one.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. My husband was watching it the other night with our kids and texted me, and I was like, here I am in LA in my hotel room eating, like, room service, and my kids and my husband are home doing something that's holiday related. So, those are probably my favorites. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I love the Heat Miser, Cold Miser ones. I think I've mentioned it on the show before, but Borrowed Hearts, it's like my favorite made-for-TV Christmas movie ever. I'm obsessed with it. It is the best. It has the main guy from, I think, Grey's Anatomy. It's like 1997, and I've been watching it for a long time. And then one other. Oh, I love The Holiday as well. I actually watched this past Christmas for the first time. I think I probably had seen parts of it when I was little, but they made the sequel to A Christmas Story, so I wanted to watch the original. It's kind of dark. I'm glad I didn't watch that growing up. I don't think that would have made me feel very good.

Cynthia Thurlow: There's an amazing rendition done in Ford's Theater every year. Last year we saw it was 2018 because then, of course, it was like 2019 and then the pandemic. But it's so well done. But I agree with you. It can be dark depending on the director and the way that it's written. I think the older I get, the less I like dark movies. I used to love being creeped out when I was little, I loved scary movies, and now I'm "Yeah, I don't really like that."

Melanie Avalon: It feels very adulty if that makes sense. Like, I was watching it and I was like, this doesn't make me feel happy and Christmasy. I'm glad I wasn't watching this growing up. So, the other quick celebrity-related ones, Danielle wants to know, if they were to make a movie about you, who would you want to play you? Or if you were to star in a movie, who would you want to act with?

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, so, obviously, I would be the person advocating for someone to play me because I'm not a thespian. I would not be in a position to be acting as someone else. It's funny over the years, I've had different people tell me I look like different people. I've heard Jennifer Aniston. I've heard Scarlett Johansson, which I didn't really see, most recently, do you know Vera Farmiga?

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, she's got a very unique look. But I was told at this dinner that I went to at John's house, this one was like, "Hey, you look like an older version of her." I was like, you realize she's in her 40s, right? She was like, oh, she is just an FYI. Don't tell women that are older that they look like an older version of someone. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Just don't, women and age just don't.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just don't even go there. I'm a very confident, secure woman, but I was just like, "That's not a compliment, lady." Those would probably be the people I've heard I resemble, but I see aspects of each one of them. Like, I love Jennifer Aniston's hair. I have lips like Scarlett. Vera, I probably look more like than the other two. How about you? I know you would want to just play someone because you are a thespian.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yeah, so I would want to play myself for sure. That is not even a question. If I were to star in a movie with somebody, I'm obsessed with Blake Lively and Keira Knightley.

Cynthia Thurlow: She's so cute.

Melanie Avalon: Blake Lively is besties with Taylor Swift, so then maybe I could become friends with Taylor, too. It would just be great. It would be amazing. Those are the two actresses I will watch any movie they're in. I think I have girl crushes on them. I just like looking at them. I just think they're so beautiful.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Blake, to me, just seems like a nice down-to-earth human being. Ryan Reynolds, who she's married to, he's so cute when he talks about her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. They seem very, like, in love. They seem very-- and they've been together for a long time now.

Cynthia Thurlow: Long time. This is her fourth pregnancy, so yeah, definitely a long time.

Melanie Avalon: There's usually Easter eggs in Taylor Swift's songs about the names of Blake's children, which is lovely. Which brings us to our next question. Easy answer for me, but Nicole wants to know, name one celebrity or person of notoriety, living or dead, with whom you'd like to share a meal and conversation. Taylor Swift. How about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: I thought about this. I gave this some thought, Nelson Mandela, because I don't know if I've ever told you this, but when I went to South Africa for the first time, he was still alive. We were supposed to go to Robben Island, which is where he was imprisoned. The weather was bad, so we couldn't actually go. It didn't look bad on our end while we were in Cape Town but were informed that it was not good weather. I felt such a connection to South Africa when I was there. Subsequent to that, I read his autobiography, and I thought, wow, I mean, this is someone that I'd love to meet. Of course, now he's deceased. That would not even be possible. That's who kind of popped up for me.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, I'm about to tell you how to get free Manuka Honey. If you know what that means, then you know what that means. If you don't know what that means, I'm about to tell you what that means. Back in the darkest days of my digestive issues and chronic fatigue and all the things, I was researching anything and everything to try and get my health back. That's when I first came across the concept of Manuka Honey. I knew honey was supposed to have health benefits, but there was something special about Manuka Honey in particular. It is a special type of honey only found in the remote and magical forests of New Zealand. The bees actually feed on the highly active nectar of the Manuka tea tree, and they make super honey that is honestly unlike anything you have ever seen or tasted before. Manuka Honey is a super honey because of its unique antioxidant and prebiotic properties.

So, honey in general has those properties. Honey also has hydrogen peroxide activity, which can have a beneficial effect on your gut and health. But, Manuka Honey in particular has a different natural antibacterial compound called MGO that only comes from the nectar of this Manuka tea tree. They actually measure it. I think it's really funny. They call it nonperoxide activity. The nutrients in Manuka Honey can help support optimal immune and digestive health. I personally found that when I was using Manuka Honey, it had an incredible effect on my gut. I became really obsessed with finding the best of the best, because there is a lot of controversy out there about Manuka Honey, and it can be difficult to make sure that you're getting a certified, verified source that is actually the stuff that you want. That's why I was so, so thrilled when Manukora reached out to me.

They make a Manuka Honey and what I'm really excited about is they have all of the transparency that I'm looking for. When I did the onboarding call with the brand, I was so impressed with their story, their authenticity, their knowledge, and their mission with Manuka Honey. Their honey can be traced back to a single origin through a unique QR authenticity platform, I love that. The honey is free from environmental toxins, free of glyphosate residue, non-GMO, gluten-free. It's raw, and like I said, 100% traceable. They're also a certified B Corp and something super important to me. They really take care of their bees. The beekeepers actually manage the hive numbers to ensure that the bees have access to diverse pollen sources and plenty of nectar to feed on. To avoid any risk of overstocking the bees, they're never fed refined sugar. There's no excessive hive transportation. 

The hives don't need to be shifted around for pollination practices. They also help support local communities. Like I said, I've been a fan of Manuka Honey for so long, so it's really exciting to partner with this company. Plus, the honey tastes delicious. You can incorporate Manukora into your food choices, into your diet, or you can use it as a supplement, taking some of it daily to help support your immunity, your GI health, and so much more. Manukora's Super Honey is available in a range of easy-to-use formats, including jars, squeeze bottles, and 100% completely compostable packets. Friends, that is so hard to find, so you can eat it straight or add it to your favorite food or beverage. If you head to manukora.com/ifpodcast you'll automatically get a free pack of honey sticks with your order, that is a $15 value. That's M-A.N-U-K-O-R-A dot com slash ifpodcast to get a free pack of honey sticks with your order. Friends, it's called honey with superpowers for good reason, so get on it and try this delicious creamy caramel honey and you won't look back with Manukora. That's manukora.com/ifpodcast for free Manuka Honeysticks and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

We'll do something health-related. Now, Brittany wants to know, calcium. "I would love to hear how you both feel about supplementing versus not."

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm not a fan of supplementing. I don't think it's generally necessary. You get more calcium from green leafy vegetables than you do from dairy. That's a byproduct of the dairy industry. In cardiology, I just saw a lot of people that were over-supplementing with calcium and actually had plaquing in their arteries. Let me be clear. This does not mean this is going to happen to you. I'm just telling you in the context of working with cardiology patients, many of whom already had established disease. We started becoming a little bit more concerned about over-supplementation of calcium. If you're looking at calcium from the perspective of increasing tensile strength of your bones and bone health, lift weights, eat enough protein, get some good sleep, and if you need it, take HRT. That would be my little plug.

Melanie Avalon: I'm currently reading, we talked about this. Are you familiar with Morley Robbins or have you interviewed him or read his book?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: So, he wrote The Root Cause Protocol. He basically makes the case that the majority of our health issues are from not enough bioavailable copper, iron overload even if you're anemic, and this enzyme called ceruloplasmin, which nobody's talking about, it's kind of mind-blowing information in there, and he's very extreme with it. I'm very excited to interview him and ask him a lot of questions. I just finished reading the whole section on calcium, and he is not a fan. I will say that leading up to it, before reading that, I was very much on the fence about calcium supplementation. I think it's a very delicate balance and it's needed to be in the correct ratios with magnesium. On top of that, the studies are not so favorable. I haven't done a deep, deep dive overview, but I know there are a lot of studies. The studies are conflicting as far as calcium supplementation and does it have benefits? Is it neutral? Does it have negative effects? I have never felt comfortable supplementing it. He makes the case that unless it's in the correct ratios, which and that's more from whole foods, that he makes the case you're going to cause more harm than good, kind of like what you were saying.

He was pointing out the ratios. He doesn't like dairy, though, either, because he says the calcium-magnesium ratio is so skewed. Like, it's way more calcium than magnesium. Oh, magnesium, I should mention that's the other, the big big mineral for him that he thinks we're all very deficient in and need more of. It's really involved in iron regulation as well. So, stay tuned when I interview him. It's going to be mind-blowing.

Cynthia Thurlow: It sounds really interesting. That's one of the things I like about you is how open minded you are to entertain varying philosophies, perspectives, opinions on health and wellness-related topics.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I love about you as well. I think we're both very open minded. I never feel like with you, I don't ever feel like you immediately shut down anything. I think that's really, really important to be open to different perspectives and thoughts.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, we should all be lifelong learners. Unfortunately, not everyone is. There's some pretty significant cognitive dissonance that is not unique to medicine. I want to just put it out there and just I was taught from a young age and this was reinforced in my medical training to question a lot and be open minded.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love that. And actually, that reminds me of two questions in our lineup, so I will ask both of them. The first one, Elaine, she wants to know, "Do you ever totally disagree with your interview guest and/or any of the guests disagreeable with you?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I've been really fortunate that, yes, I have had guests that I don't 100% align with. And I think that's okay. It usually means that my team gets an uptick in emails like, why did this person talk more about, only about plant based as being the best protein option? Or why did the guest talk about this? And that's always interesting to navigate. I've never had anyone openly disagreeable on the podcast. I think that I do a really good job of vetting people, I think that we're all aligned in terms of wanting to provide high-quality information and wanting to do it authentically and with integrity. I have never had someone become belligerent or argumentative, and that's so not aligned with my personality. I'm a recovering people pleaser. For me, I have to kind of navigate those boundaries. So for full disclosure, I've interviewed three people for the podcast and I have not put out their episodes and it's been for a variety of different reasons.

Occasionally, I will interview someone and realize after I've interviewed them that it's really not a good fit. It would not serve the purpose of the podcast. I would say that those individuals, although they're lovely human beings, I'm sure the message isn't aligned and it's so far out of alignment that it would have been problematic had I published it. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: So, in general, and kind of like what we're just talking about, I really do believe everybody I've brought on, I really do think there's truth in things they're saying. It doesn't mean that I think everything they're saying is true. I sometimes do disagree with them, but I do always think there's truth to be learned or something to be found there. Probably because using the phrase totally disagree, I think the closest I've come to that has been with people very far on either side of the spectrum. You mentioned it either plant based or on the flipside, carnivore. I've had some plant-based people where it was very much like, this is the way and animal products are awful for you and awful for the environment and I disagree with that.

And then on the flipside, I've had carnivore people where it was like, every plant is the devil and I disagree with that as well. So, that would probably be that. As far as any disagreeable with me in general, same experience as Cynthia. Everybody has been so kind, so wonderful. I've had one experience where I felt like the person didn't really want to be there. They had come in through a friend recommendation, which interestingly at the time it was one of my really good friends connected me to this person. And at the time I was like. "Oh, this is great," because it's a personal introduction. They're going to want to be here more because it was through a friend. Thinking back later, I was like, "Oh, that could go either way." It could be they're excited because it's a friend or it could be they're doing it as a favor for the friend. Maybe they didn't want to be there so much. I will say, stepping back the episode was very valuable, amazing information. I'm so honored to have had it. Very grateful for the interview. I just not sure that person exactly wanted to be there.

Which relates to the next question, which was from Theresa, which is, "What is the most embarrassing or awkward moment during an interview?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably one of those three non-published podcasts where it was this person in particular went off the rails and didn't realize that the language they were using was very offensive and would have been offensive to listeners. I actually had my team listen to the podcast to confirm that I was not losing my mind and they agreed with me. So, unfortunately, I can't share more than that. I would say that using language that is not appropriate in the context of pejorative statements, is that vague.

Melanie Avalon: It's vague, but it paints a picture.

Cynthia Thurlow: To protect people. [laughs] I think the one thing that I know we're very aligned on is that I will not publish an interview if it is not aligned with my mission. My mission is designed to inspire, educate, and empower women, and it was none of the above, so I will just leave it at that if an interview does not meet my standards, I will not publish it.

Melanie Avalon: I as will be very vague, but I had a guest on who, whenever I start off the show before recording, I ask the guest how much time they have for the episode. And so this guest told me that he had basically ample time, like no time limit. We were recording and early into the episode, he made a comment about time and like running out of time. But it was kind of, like, offhanded. I wasn't sure exactly what he was saying, so I just ignored it. And then a little bit later, we kept talking, and then he just interrupted me mid sentence and we edited it out, so, of course, you can't hear it, but he just interrupted me, and was like, I really have to go now or something. And I was like, "Oh, okay." The way it was presented was that I was basically taking up his time, which I would never want to do. That's why I ask in the very beginning, how much time do they have? I was mortified, I was so mortified.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, but you didn't, I mean, Melanie, that's not a reflection of you. That's a reflection of him.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, if someone said if you were to say, Melanie, I have 40 minutes, you'd be like, cool, I can do 40 minutes. If they give you the green light that you're not on, like, a timetable, then the expectation would be is that you will finish when you finish.

Melanie Avalon: It wasn't far into the-- so it wasn't like an hour in. I think the first comment was, like, 20 minutes in or something, and then the final comment was, like, half an hour in. And I've never, so fun times.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's not fun.

Melanie Avalon: Here's a fun question from Danielle. "How many of the 50 States have you been to?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I counted, 35. I have been to a lot of places.

Melanie Avalon: If you went to all of them, where do you think would be the last one you would go to and why?

Cynthia Thurlow: Now, let me be clear. I was born in South Carolina, so I love the south. I think there are definitely states that aren't higher on the hierarchy. Maybe a better question is what was I surprised by? Was there a state that I was really surprised by? I don't want to sound like I'm pejorative about any one state over another, but I would say that Alaska, not because I don't want to go, but it's just the distance to get there in terms of the things we have to do to get there from the East Coast. So, Alaska. Definitely want to see Alaska. And I'm just innately curious. Like, I'd love to go to the Dakotas. I've never been there. I love Montana. That was a surprise. I loved Utah. Although I've not been to Idaho. I think now it's just strategically figuring out how to make my way to all the other states. I would say probably Alaska, but only because of the distance.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was thinking if you hadn't been to Alaska if that would be the one. I've only been to 16. It's mostly the one like the southern-related ones, northeast, and then traveling out to California. I should get on that.

Okay. Some eating and drinking-related questions. We got a lot of questions about what both of us eat. For mine, it was Hollie wanted to know "How do you cook your scallops and how many cucumbers and blueberries do you really eat in a day?" Do you eat anything else other than the previous three mentioned? And then, Mariah wanted to know, "Curious how you consume your ginger and turmeric." Okay, so this is funny. I'm always posting about my scallops, my cucumbers, and my blueberries, especially because I go to Costco. You guys following on Instagram, you will know this. I buy a lot of scallops and cucumbers and blueberries at one time and I post about it. Every time I post about it, I get inundated with DMs about how you cook these, so much to the point that I now have two things. I have a saved auto-reply. Do you use the saved auto-replies, Cynthia? Where you start typing it and then it fills in the rest.

Cynthia Thurlow: I need to, I don't.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, a game changer. [laughs] All I have to type in-- So, if I get a question about this, all I type in is SC for scallop. It fills out my whole answer, which the answer says something about, like, thank you so much. Please see the pinned highlight on my profile so that when people go to my profile, I have a pin post highlight that says how I cook my scallops because I get this question so much. To answer the question, and this will answer about the ginger and turmeric, I put these scallops in a Dutch and a Le Creuset. Do you have Le Creuset?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Melanie Avalon: I love Le Creuset so much. So, a small Dutch oven-type situation. I put the scallops in there. I don't add any water or anything because when you cook it actually makes a water-soupy base, which sounds gross, but it's really good. I add to that, mushrooms, chives, and cilantro. When it's done cooking, I add to that ginger, turmeric, and lemon, and it is delicious. Do I eat anything else other than cucumbers, blueberries, and scallops? Yes. I love the cucumbers because it's very hydrating and it adds a lot of fiber and a lot of bulk, which I love. I love having massive amounts of fruit because that's my carb source, and I digest it well, and I do really well with blueberries. And I used to eat pineapple. The thing I switch around a lot is the meat. I find that being so simple like this, that I specifically crave different meats or types of fish besides the scallops every night.

I eat a ton of scallops, and then I eat whatever meat or fish I'm craving, which will be either chicken or steak or salmon, barramundi, tilapia. I adjust accordingly. Oh, and she wanted to know how many, cucumbers, I probably eat like 10 really really big English cucumbers and blueberries I eat like, I don't know, two and a half pounds, maybe.

The question for Cynthia. Melissa says "Hello, I want to know what Cynthia eats. I know that Melanie eats scallops and cucumbers. I'm a 51-year-old female with 50 pounds to lose. My window is 3 to 9 PM. Oh. And then she has another question. Before I do that, Cynthia, what do you eat?"

Cynthia Thurlow: A lot of meat and a lot of vegetables, steak, bison. We don't eat a lot of fish because my kids don't love fish, and fish is expensive, so my husband sometimes and I will just grill salmon steak. Actually, tonight we're having shrimp scampi as an example. Getting back to your original question, I think as a perimenopausal or menopausal female, based on research, we have to hit these protein thresholds. That's really important. I eat a lot of eggs. I occasionally eat chicken. It's not my favorite protein. I tend to like leaner meats as opposed to fatty meats. If you give me a filet versus a ribeye, I'm going to pick the filet. I learned over the summer through nutrigenomics testing that's actually what my body thrives on is lean meat, not fatty meat.

So, getting back to your original question, I think that on a lot of different levels, my methodology is always 40 to 50 g of protein in a meal and then non-starchy vegetables. It could be roasted cauliflower, it could be broccoli, could be asparagus, mushrooms, salad. I eat a lot of salad while I was traveling just because it allowed me to get in some vegetables. I'm not anti-carb, but I tend to hover, under 75 or under 50 g of carbs most days. On the days where I'm having higher carbohydrates, I may lean into blueberries, I may have just a green banana, which is actually what I had today when I was breaking my fast along with a protein shake. As I'm coming back from being in LA, it's just been a busy day and so it's always protein depending on whether or not I need added fats, I like salted macadamia nuts, I like avocado, I like coconut oil, I like avocado oil, I like butter, my tolerant ghee. I definitely try to mix up my proteins. I think that's important.

Your other question, which she included that, I'm 51 years old, I have 50 pounds to lose. My window is 3 to 9. How does a picky eater get in enough protein? If you look at the research, we have to eat more protein as perimenopausal and menopausal females especially as we're losing estrogen and your menstrual cycle is gone for 10 months. When you're diagnosed with or you're diagnosed, you're told that your menopausal, so 51 is the average age in the United States. I think you have to open up your window to get enough protein. Unless you can get grams in in that protein window and I find most women need a wider window than 5 or 6 hours. Now, Melanie is a really good example. She gets in a lot of protein in a fairly compressed feeding window, but that's probably not the average person. I would really lean into the protein piece. I would experiment with different types of protein. I actually like bison more than I like beef. During the pandemic, we got very creative with proteins. We tried ostrich, we've tried elk, we tried wild boar.

Melanie Avalon: Where do you get ostrich?

Cynthia Thurlow: There's a farm in the Midwest. It's called Blackwing. I have no affiliation with them, but you can definitely try some things there. We started with sausage because I was just like ostrich wasn't something that was super appealing to me, I can tell you. We've tried ostrich twice and it has not been a favorite protein, but, like, elk was good, wild boar was good.

Melanie Avalon: I love elk, ooh.

Cynthia Thurlow: Elk was really good. But I really like bison. I would encourage you to be saying your picky is being pejorative. You can change that, right? Understanding that protein is going to be very important for muscle-protein synthesis. It's going to be very important for satiety. It's going to be very important for maintaining or building muscle. As someone who has identified that you want to lose weight, protein is going to be your friend. You really need to lean into it. If you're sitting down for a meal, one egg is 6 g of protein. You need to eat probably at least four to really get enough of a protein boost and then probably be adding in something else as well. I just find that oftentimes I'm doing, like, a bison burger with two or three eggs and then my vegetables. I'm also currently obsessed with slaw. Shredded cabbage doing it different ways, like a clean coleslaw or like an Asian-inspired slaw. I don't know what it is. I'm going through a cabbage phase, which is both good and bad because I just can't keep enough of it in my house. Hopefully, that's helpful.

Melanie Avalon: It was very helpful. Awesome. I knew you would have that one covered. Okay, so here's something else, Teresa wants to know. "What is your toxic trait as my students would say, or basically an area you need to grow in or some bad habit you need to work on?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't think I have a toxic trait. I would say that my area of focus will always be patience because my brain works really fast, and I'm a very methodical thoughtful person. I would say I sometimes struggle with being patient with other people and sometimes being patient in traffic because I grew up in New Jersey, and some of that has kind of stayed in me, although I'm getting better now where I am. I would say that's probably an area I have to constantly work on is being patient. Being patient and being present. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think for mine, so I think the thing I've made a ton of improvement on is feeling guilty about everything. I literally will feel guilty about everything. I've worked with my therapist a lot on that. I think a lot of that has to do with how I was raised, like Bible Belt, Christian South, and just like a guilt complex. I think also, I know I'm very obsessive and intense and I think I've made a lot of progress in that as well as far as feeling the need for control over my life, I think just finding that balance of dealing with my own intensity because I can be intense.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think half the battle is just acknowledging I'm like, okay, I need to work on this.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, 100%. I definitely like looking in the mirror. Laura wants to know, "What is something that we would be surprised to learn about you?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Gosh. I think I'm pretty transparent. I would say that I think people make a lot of assumptions, and I say this because this is feedback, I've gotten over the years. People assume I grew up a certain way. People make assumptions that I've had it very easy in life, and I have not had a very easy life, but I've done a lot of internal work. I continue to do a lot of internal work. I try to be as authentic and real as possible. I think people would be surprised to know that I grew up in a pretty unhappy household and with parents that were not very happy people. I had to navigate becoming very resilient in order to excel and do well, given the fact that I wasn't really given the foundation to be able to be a healthy, well-adjusted adult. When I tell you I've been doing therapy since my 20s, I'm not kidding.

I'm a fervent believer in working on yourself, but I wouldn't be who I am if I had grown up in a different environment. I always say that I'm grateful for the experiences that I had because it's made me like the strong, resilient person that I am. It also means I have to constantly work on my own traumas that I've experienced. Again, I think that's why Gabor Mate's book and the book that Gabrielle-- Gabby Bernstein wrote this year were particularly impactful for me because we're constantly working on our stuff, and I think that's what people would be surprised. People assume I grew up very privileged. People assume I grew up very affluent, and I didn't. It made me that kind of scrappy individual that wasn't willing to let people tell me, no. Like, I was like, I'm going to figure this out. I've been able to navigate life pretty well, but with the support and love of good friends, specific family members, having lots of healthy boundaries, which I get better about every day.

Melanie Avalon: That's interesting. My family growing up, at least from my perspective, I'm just overwhelmingly grateful. It was very supportive and loving, and the one message we were always told was that we could do whatever we wanted. As far as career goes, we could do anything, we could achieve any goal, and our parents would support us in that. I'm just overwhelmingly grateful for that. I have three things. One, for the longest time I was terrified of phone calls up until college, like answering the phone. Have I told you this before?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: I left high school early, before senior year, and my mom was like, Melanie, you can't go to college if you can't answer the phone. I got major phone anxiety and making phone calls, like, "Oh, my goodness." In high school, we had to solicit ads for the newspaper, which required calling people. It was awful. The thing that cured me of it really quickly, I think I've shared this may be on the podcast before is my first internship was with Jerry Bruckheimer, who's one of the biggest producers ever. He does the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and so many things. They literally stuck me on the frontdesk as an intern and made me answer the phone for hours. It was answering the phone for like really, really important people and having this sheet of you had to connect them to the right office and you could not connect them to the wrong office. It was the most stressful experience of my life and that cured me of my phone fears. There's nothing worse than that as far as the phone goes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, knowing you now, I can't even imagine you having phone fears.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know. Yeah, especially now because now I'm like doing phone calls 24/7 with random people. I remember that when they set me on that, they weren't supposed to do that. I was an intern. But the assistant had to leave. She was like, can you just cover the desk? And like, here's the stuff. And I was like, what? Like, the HR woman came over and was like, why are you sitting here? I was like, I don't know. They just told me to answer the phones. I think also people think I'm an extrovert. I'm very much an introvert, very much. I'm not shy, but going out is very draining to me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's why being in LA and doing four podcasts and I mean, I got back to my hotel room on Friday and just told my husband. I was like, "I'm ordering room service. I'm packing my bag, and I'm just going to watch something on my Netflix because I don't want to talk to anybody." [chuckles] I'm just done as grateful as I was for that experience. I'm like a rubber band. The rubber band has been stretched out, so the rubber band now needs to decompress.

Melanie Avalon: I have a fear of robots, like big robots, like Transformers. I might have talked about this on the show as well. So, Transformers is really scary to me. The concept of-- if the end of the world or if the next political upheaval involves robot-type machines, what are they called, robots? I don't know. There are all these videos--

Cynthia Thurlow: AI.

Melanie Avalon: AI. Yeah. That is like, terrifying to me. Terrifying. Even the nice ones? Like, even if it was like a really big robot and it was a nice one, like Bumblebee and Transformers. Mm, Mm. No, no. I would have a panic attack. Do you have any crazy fears?

Cynthia Thurlow: Snakes? I'm an all-boy mom, so I had to get really comfortable with bugs. And we have a bearded dragon. We have two dogs. I have a very nature-loving 15-year-old and he has been that way his whole life. Snakes, I am absolutely positively terrified of snakes.

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever had a bad experience with a snake?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I don't know what it is. It's one of those things where, as an example, when we're still living in Northern Virginia, right outside of our walk-out basement, was this nonpoisonous snake. Let me be clear, there are plenty of poisonous snakes in Virginia, but this was not one of them. I looked at it and I said to my husband, it's not going to move because it's clearly just eaten something. So, it was like digesting. My husband when he got home, I made him get rid of it to put it in the woods. I was like, I don't want it anywhere near the house. If I walked out the front door and saw that, I probably would have just been hysterical, which is not the way I normally am. I would say I have an unnatural fear of snakes. Beyond that, there's not a whole lot other than the normal fears that you get as a parent.

I have an ER trauma background from many years ago and I've seen a lot of horrific things that have happened. In the back of my mind, the things that I don't allow myself to process because I don't want them. Like, I can talk openly about snakes, but the fear of anything ever happening significant to my boys. That's a fear that I have. That is not what I'm concerned about. I'm not worried about that. The snake thing, we have a lot of copperheads where we are in Central Virginia. I have to remind my kids, if they see them, like, to just leave them alone. Because sometimes the baby copperheads are actually more poisonous because they have more concentrated venom. Even walking the dogs, we have to be conscientious of that in times when they bred and they have a baby, it's out and just kind of trying to explain to Liam, don't play with it, don't touch it, don't go near it, go away from it, don't mess with it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, what's really interesting about that? I'm just thinking about this because when we say snakes, I know you're saying yours is a natural fear, but a lot of people are scared of snakes. If we say snakes, your first thought, at least for me, is, "Oh, yeah, obviously because they're scary. If you think about it, like, there're a lot of reptiles and why are only certain animals do they have this fear response? Like snakes, most people aren't scared of lizards, but we could just as easily live in a world where lizards are the scary thing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Right, well, and it's funny because Liam at-- I think he was second or third grade and it was the only thing he wanted for his birthday was a reptile. And, my husband and I had to talk about, like, said reptile options, and originally, he wanted a tortoise, and when I started reading about them, and first of all, they live forever, and then they tend to carry a lot of zoological diseases and so we kind of settled on the bearded dragon. And the bearded dragon is quiet. It's totally mellow. He doesn't handle it enough anymore that he can take it out and let it run around, thank God. I had friends mine that were like, I can't believe you let your kid get a reptile. I said, well, first of all, he made, like, a whole-- this won't surprise you, Melanie, but he made a whole presentation for why he needed this reptile.

Melanie Avalon: It's something I would do.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly. I said he had such good arguments about it. We've had Kirby now for, gosh, like, six years. They do live a long time, but he doesn't bother anybody. He's in his cage, he gets fed, he's quiet, and he's not so big that he's scary. I think I would have to be honest and tell you that if I were in Florida and there were the bigger lizards that are there.

Melanie Avalon: The monitor lizards, they're like the size of alligators.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, those are not pleasant. I'm drawing, like, a blank on what the bigger lizards are, crap, big lizard.

Melanie Avalon: The monitor ones are huge.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's like this name recalls sometimes, big lizard, there's actually something called the big lizard, great, iguana. If I were to see an iguana and it fell out of a tree, like, when they get cold, they fall out of the trees. I would probably lose my mind. The statistical likelihood of that ever happening is pretty low. When I saw them in Costa Rica, I just stayed away from them.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait wait. They fall out of trees?

Cynthia Thurlow: Because they get cold and then fall out of the trees? Yeah, I would lose my mind if one fell on me. That would be it. I would probably just lose my mind. But otherwise, I'm a really good boy mom. I got in the dirt with my kids. I played with my kids out in the dirt. I definitely didn't pull the girl card, but with a snake, I absolutely would.

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I would not be good with that.

Melanie Avalon: We did have an experience growing up because we had a basement where there was a snake behind the toilet, like a big one. I didn't actually see it, but the story was like my mom was like, we found one. This is when I was little, ever since then, I have a habit where when I sit at the toilet, I look behind it to see if there's a snake back there.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you talk about people in Asia. They'll have boa constrictors that come up through the toilet. I would lose my mind. Like, completely lose my mind.

Melanie Avalon: Like, in the toilet?

Cynthia Thurlow: In the toilet? Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-mm.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I would be officially 'Cuckoo for cocoa puffs'.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

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Okay, here's a really good question from Eileen. What are your thoughts on the information going around originating from TikTok, possibly, that alcohol stops fat burning for 36 hours?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's a good question, but I don't know how long alcohol impacts lipolysis, how long that is. We know that your body processes it as a toxin, so if you eat a massive bolus of food and drink a bunch of alcohol, you have the potentiality for stopping fat loss. I would have to do some reading. I don't know. Melanie, do you have specific research on that?

Melanie Avalon: I didn't research specifically how long alcohol stops fat burning. However, I can say it cannot be true that alcohol stops all fat burning for 36 hours because there are people, myself included, who have been having a nightly glass of wine for years and have lost weight during that time. So, logic says that's an incorrect statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting because I'm looking at brown fat activation mitigates alcohol-induced liver steatosis. So it can't be that long. I mean, intellectually, I can't imagine.

Melanie Avalon: Once you process the alcohol, you're not burning the alcohol anymore. There's no way there's a lingering thing that stops you from burning fat, because, like I said, it would be impossible then to lose weight while drinking every night, which so many people do. That literally just says that cannot be a true statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, the other thing is, I think it's predicated on other things. Are you 25 years old? Are you 50? We know that as women are getting older, they don't process alcohol as readily. It impacts the detoxification pathways. If you are someone who's insulin resistant and you're drinking a lot of alcohol, I mean, that could be a problem. I think it has to be taken in context. I just did a really quick Doctor Google search, and I didn't see anything that said that specifically. So, don't believe everything you see on TikTok. I think that applies to everything on social media because sometimes my team will state something and we're always very research based. People are like, "Where did that come from?" We will share journal articles with people we're like, this is based on this, and here's the research. But I have never read that. I do think it has to be taken in context, how old are you? Are you insulin resistant? Are you metabolically flexible? Those things can increase the likelihood that alcohol is going to be inflammatory.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely. I'm actually really curious. I listened to an interview on Dave Asprey with this probiotic. Have you heard of this? It's called ZBiotics. Have you heard of it?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: I want to reach out to them and learn more. It's this guy who apparently has controversy because it's a genetically modified probiotic. They engineered this probiotic that specifically breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the byproduct of alcohol metabolism, and it's the reason you don't feel well from alcohol. Apparently, this probiotic, like you take it before drinking, because he talks in the interview about how the large percent of acetaldehyde that's formed is in the gut, and so the bacteria breaks it down. It basically mitigates a lot of the negative effects of alcohol. What's interesting is, he says you still get all of the benefits, like the cognitive bit, like feeling tipsy, because people want to feel the feelings. I'm really interested by that, which actually relates to one other question.

Becky said, "Cynthia, I heard you mention on one of your older podcasts that you don't produce enough acetaldehyde dehydrogenase." That is the enzyme that actually breaks down acetaldehyde into acetic acid. You are not getting as many of the negative-- you need it to break down acetaldehyde, which is toxic. She says, "I have the same issue as do some of my kids. I was wondering if you also get a red face, i.e., the Asian flush, and it's called that because that happens a lot in Asian populations when you drink. Have you found anything that helps other than not drinking at all?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Good question. Did I get a red face? Not always. Not that kind of stereotypical red face. I think that the things that I've learned, and I've actually done a TV segment several years ago talking about how to avoid a hangover around New Year's and the things that I think are helpful and beneficial are taking things like NAC before and after drinking, as well as glutathione before bed. We can link that TV segment that I did a few years ago in the show notes. To me, the best way to avoid it is to just abstain. That's what I embrace now, but I acknowledge that people that want to drink want to be able to do it responsibly and not have any untoward effects. I think that I would probably suggest if you're choosing to drink NAC glutathione can be helpful, but also leaning into higher quality options.

We both are huge proponents of Dry Farm Wines. I think about the clear liquors like vodka, gin, also thinking about things like tequila as another option are going to be cleaner than having more traditional wine, having sugary drinks, leaning into bourbon and heavier alcohols that are very likely full of ingredients that could potentially exacerbate a hangover as well as exacerbate symptoms you may experience from drinking.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and that ties in whilst I was saying before that probiotic is specifically one that addresses that. What's interesting about glutathione because that's a really good example and I recently did a whole episode with Nayan Patel about his supplemental glutathione. What's interesting about that is this is what he said and sort of my experience as well it can really help with mitigating the effects of alcohol, but then it also can help you metabolize it faster and so you don't get as much of the tipsy effect that people are looking for.

It's interesting how finding that balance of how can you maximize if people are going in for a certain mental experience but also not have the health issues. I think that's where something like Dry Farm Wines, like Cynthia said. I'm obsessed with Dry Farm Wines. I gifted it to so many people this past Christmas. For listeners, if they would like to get a bottle for a penny, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifodcast, that's wine that's low sugar, low alcohol, and tested to be free of toxins and heavy metals, and mold. Yes, there's definitely a lot that you can do to have your drink and eat it too. So, one last one to end. "Teresa wants to know what is your most recent text, who is it to, and what does it say?" We cannot include if this was your most recent one. My most recent one was to you about the show, but before that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mine was actually to my accountant and he was letting me know that he had sent me some information. I'm actually becoming an S Corp. For listeners, whether they're aware of what that is, but making some changes in my business heading into 2023. My real last official text was from my accountant who was reminding me that he had sent me an email, but otherwise, it would have been for Melanie because that was the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Congrats, by the way, I think I did it about a year ago. It feels very official.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it feels very official and I think we had been teetering on making that decision. This is the year I jokingly say I've always been very fiscally conservative, but this is the year that we've got some more aggressive financial planning within the business and the CPA and I just said now is the time. It's going to be an S Corp, ways to ensure that we are maximizing income and filing taxes properly. I would say fiscal responsibility is number one, but ensuring that I'm very aware, very transparent of what is going to benefit the business the most.

Melanie Avalon: Is it your name? The S Corp?

Cynthia Thurlow: It will be, I think so, although it's interesting, some people like you to do DBA, like doing business as.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I had a DBA leading up to the S Corp. Although I stopped renewing it, so I think it probably is not active anymore.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I had another LLC that I had to pay to deactivate. It's one of those things, they're like, oh, you can't just pay the renewal. You have to pay the fee. Because you didn't renew it on time, you have to pay that too. And I was like, fine.

Melanie Avalon: Always something. There's so much to learn. I feel like I learned so much so fast and I didn't even-- I was working with an accountant as well, but there's just so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's why, the way I look at it, they earn their money by maximizing your income and making sure you're paying your taxes properly, but also working within the law to ensure that you are taking every opportunity to be more fiscally appropriate. How's that? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my last text was actually to a podcast guest. I've had Kirk Parsley on the show a ton, so this will be a plug. He's recording right now for, do you listen to? Well, probably not. It's not really our cup of tea, Jocko Podcast?

Cynthia Thurlow: Very aware of him, Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: He is, I think, right now recording with him. I said, "How is hanging out with Jocko." 

Cynthia Thurlow: Did they ever work together?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're friends. I don't know if they work together, but they're friends.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. The SEAL community is pretty small.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense. It's funny, I was talking to him about it beforehand because he's like the sleep doctor and that's his focus. We were brainstorming about should he just focus on sleep or other things. I'll be really curious to hear how that went.

Cynthia Thurlow: That sounds very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, okie dokie. Well, this has been really fun. And this was part two. We're going to have to at least have a part three because there're still so many good questions.

Cynthia Thurlow: Don't worry for anyone that was asking. There were a lot of questions about hormones, bioidentical hormones, menopause, perimenopause, birth control, and perimenopause, etc., we will absolutely devote some time to those questions. 

Melanie Avalon: We'll get to some of those next time. I actually did I was telling Cynthia we got a lot of questions as well about fasting when we did this and they were all really good. I think I'm going to save them for when we get through the AMAs. Maybe we'll do an AMA IF Podcast episode. Sorry, like a fasting related one. But yeah, so, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show. Like I said, we normally answer a lot of fasting-related questions. You can directly email questions@ifppodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode that will have links to everything that we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode301. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all of the things. Okay. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I love this. We'll have to episodically do these kinds of Q&As. I think it's exciting to talk about the things that listeners are interested in learning more about.

Melanie Avalon: I know I'm like really excited because I have the document in front of me and we got through probably half of it, so we probably got one or two more episodes left. It'll be fun. So, okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 15

Episode 300: AMA! Sleep, Whole Foods, Musical Theater, Bloating, Parasites, Botox, Anti-Aging Skincare, Laser Hair Removal, Favorite Books, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 300 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

 Listener Q&A: Nicole - What’s one piece of advice you’d give to someone looking to get healthier? 

Listener Q&A: Samantha - I know you are a musical theater fan, what is your favorite musical?

BLISSY: Get Blissy In Tons Of Colors, And Risk-Free For 60 Nights, At blissy.com/ifpodcast, With The Code IFPODCAST For 30% Off!

Listener Q&A: Alani - What are your tricks for keeping your stomach from puffing out?

Listener Q&A: David - Have either of you taken a DNA stool analysis for parasites?

Episode 296: Berberine, Insulin Sensitivity, Glucose Control, Gut Health, Liver Health, Body Recomposition, AMPK Activation, Cholesterol Control, And More!

Listener Q&A: Amy - Loved last episode where you both admitted you color your hair without shame in not using cleaner options. I would be curious what other things are you willing to “bend” the rules for?

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

Listener Q&A: Damon - Laser hair removal, is it worth it?

Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What are your top 3 book recommendations besides your own?

Listener Q&A: Danielle - What is your favorite holiday tradition?

Listener Q&A: Lesley - I work at HOTWORX 24 hour infrared fitness studio. What do you think about a 3d workout? Heat, exercise, infrared sauna?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 300 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I’m about to tell you how you can get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off. Yes, all of that incredible meat, plus $10 off, all for free. We are a bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox, which is always in season. Some of my favorite meals that I had throughout the holiday season were fantastic meat and seafood from ButcherBox. Now with the new year, it is time to celebrate with only the very best of the best when it comes to meat and seafood that you put in your body, as well as meat and seafood that helps support our planet and the environment.

They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that’s really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you’re joining a community focused on doing what’s better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox.

All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished and they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it’s so easy. Everything ships directly to your door and it is so delicious. I love carpaccio for example. The ButcherBox steaks are incredible for that. That’s how you know it’s good steak when you can eat it rare like that and ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience.

You can get the New Year bundle for free, plus $10 off when you sign up today. That’s a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, in your first box. Sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. Again, to get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off, sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. We’ll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 300 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Very exciting milestone episode here. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. How are you, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well despite navigating travel back to small airports. I was laughing/texting with you last night sharing all the insights I was gleaming being stuck in an airport for 7 hours with a long delay. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, were talking about the food options, healthy or not, fasting or not in airport layovers, so I'm glad you survived. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I know it's funny. I'm such an observer as an introvert, like, I just love to people watch. The behaviors that I was watching yesterday intermittently between reading a book, listening to a podcast, reading another book, binging on something on Netflix was just the behavioral patterns. I think people feel a lot of pressure to eat constantly when they're in airports, and I just find that all super fascinating. I think I was chronicling how it doesn't matter what airport I go to. I can generally get a naked burger and a salad and that's typically what I do. 

Actually, the waiter yesterday, it was funny. I got off my flight from LA and Chicago and I was like, okay, plenty of time. I have two and a half hours, I'll be great. I went to a restaurant, got my burger, read a book. I was totally by myself. I was totally in my zone. And then get to my gate and then we realized we've got, like, mechanical problems. I guess pilots and stewards, stewardesses are only allowed to fly for a certain amount of time every day because of the mechanical delay it turned into. We had a different flight crew. It was like a seven hour instead of a two and a half hour time in between flights. I was texting with Melanie and I said, and then, it's not a good sign when United rolls out the cart of snacks. And the cart of snacks was gone in about two minutes. It was amazing. People were clearly, “starving.” But it was hilarious to kind of watch all this unfold. So, I'm just grateful to be home and the fact that I got a decent amount of night's sleep, and it's my last business trip of the year, so no more traveling for a while. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I feel like it definitely speaks to just how much well, A, we're inundated with food and food advertising and accessibility and also how food is really just a pastime. Like, if we're bored, I'm sure people were hungry as well. It's a comfort. It fills the gap of boredom. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I get that, there's no judgment on my part, the psychology behind the way people eat. That's why I always say, like, if you eat enough protein, you're just too full. Even if I had endeavored to eat the bag of Cheez-Its or Goldfish or whatever myriad of stuff they had, I was like, I just grabbed a bottle of water because I was so dehydrated from traveling that I was like, I'll just grab the water, and I'll just try to stay hydrated, and we'll just go from there. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I always fast when traveling. If it was, like, that situation where it was a really long layover, honestly, I would probably still fast. I would probably turn it into a longer fast moment. Just because I don't feel comfortable with lots of food in me and trap. It makes me sluggish and--

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, definitely. I wore-- so people will probably be humored. Like, I've got a whole wardrobe of things I wear when I travel so that I can wear layers. So, I'm never cold, because traveling through Chicago, it was actually the airport was quite cold, which actually wasn't a problem. I was like, okay, I got a sweater. I'll just put that on. I had Spanx, like, leggings on all day because they're super comfortable. They weren't comfortable at, like, hour 18. They were definitely [laughs] when my husband picked me up, I was like, there's too much compression on my stomach and I've been doing a lot of sitting. He was like, “What are you trying to tell me?” I said, “You know how I talk about like there are specific things I wear when I travel. This is not the outfit. If I'm doing more than like 14 hours of travel, there's just too much compression on my stomach.” My stomach was like not happy with me at all. 

Melanie Avalon: I can't wear Spanx at all. That's how you don't have GI issues. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they're definitely different. They're super comfortable actually. It's just that amount-- it would be like trying to wear like, Lululemon tights all day long and traveling. It's a lot of compression on your gut. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, speaking of--

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably TMI. This is a good segue into our Q&A because it's like there may be a little TMI today. 

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners, we really wanted to celebrate Episode 300, quite a milestone. There're a lot of episodes, I think actually for every, well, there's only been two other 100 miles markers. So, Episode 100 and Episode 200. I think for both of those we did an AMA episode. So, continuing the tradition going to do and ask me anything. We got so many amazing questions that we're anticipating. This will probably be a part one, part two, maybe a part three. We'll see how it goes. We got so many really great questions in the Facebook Group which people should join, which is IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real foods + Life. That's my personal Facebook group. I asked in that group for ask me anything questions and we got so many. What I did was I divided them into categories. I think we'll just alternate between more personal ones, more health and wellness-related ones. We'll just see where it goes. I have a lot of questions. I'm very excited about this. So, Cynthia, should we jump in?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, we should. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm thinking we might because I have, like I said, it's by categories, so I might alternate with the lifehack ones and the likes and things like that with the more health related. Here's a good lifehack that's kind of both. And this comes from Nicole. "What's one piece of advice you'd give someone looking to get healthier?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, gosh. I think and it's funny, I was out in LA and I did four podcasts and pretty consistently the one for me is sleep as a foundational element to health for anyone at any stage of life. I would say really investing in high quality sleep and really starting with the foundations. Not necessarily rushing to a supplement, but doing the things that we know improve sleep quality, daily exercise, light exposure in the morning, getting off electronics, wearing blue blockers, making sure you don't eat two to three hours before bed unless you're a unicorn. I think those are the things that I really think about. I think we like to make things very complicated. I always say before you even think about adding a supplement, make sure you're doing the sleep hygiene pieces. Sleeping in a cold, dark room. I sleep with a sleep mask. I keep the thermostat at 65 degrees. In fact, it was funny when I came home last night, it was 69 degrees on our second floor. The first thing I said to my family was, “Oh, we're going to drop the thermostat because I need it at 65.” Everyone was like, “We've been sleeping at a much warmer temperature.” And I'm like, “I can't do that.” So, I would probably say focusing in on sleep first and then adding supplements if you still need additional support. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good one. I'm actually surprised I didn't think of sleep as the first thing. Whenever people ask me what's the most important thing for me to focus on, I think I normally do say sleep. So, I'm really glad you tackled it. I was thinking on the diet side of things and I was really torn between eating whole foods not the store, but like, foods in their whole form, because that's macro-agnostic, but I just think if we just return to eating real food, that can have a profound effect on people's health. I was torn between that and fasting [laughs] surprise, but I actually think I would go the whole foods route.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I think that's really important. I am a huge advocate of saying that it all starts with food, and I see so many people that are quick to embrace the latest fad irrespective of what it's leaning into. I just remind people, if we just keep things simple, focusing in on sleep, eating as nutrient dense foods as you can, I think that's really, really helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I obviously think so as well. I think between those two, honestly, if somebody's not addressing those two things and then they address those two things, I think the profound effect it would have on so many people's health would be crazy. You don't even have to be really specific or do like a certain type of diet, but that combined with the sleep, very powerful. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. Keep it simple. I mean if there's one tried-and-true message that I think both of us discuss consistently is keep things simple because if we try to make too many changes all at once, it's overwhelming. It's hard to stay, I hate to use the word compliant, but that's the easiest way to put it. It's hard to be consistent when you're trying to change five things at once. That's what I think most people do. I mean, I certainly have been guilty of it myself, but pick one thing at a time and really lean into it and master it and then move on to something else. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's the fun one and she addressed it to me, but we can both answer it. It's from Samantha. She said, “Melanie, I know you are a musical theater fan. What is your favorite musical?” 

So, I'll go ahead and answer that. I think I might have answered this on another AMA. This question, I always feel mischaracterizes me because my answer is musicals that, it sounds like a cop out, like, “Oh, she doesn't watch musicals because she's listing,” the one that everybody says, but I promise you I listen to so many musicals. But there's a reason that these two musicals are what they are, which is Phantom and Wicked. They're just so amazing. But then my runner ups are next to normal Jekyll & Hyde and Hamilton. I know she said your favorite, but there're so many, and then I have, like 50 million more. How about you, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: A few of those I've seen. I grew up in New Jersey, and so my mom really prioritized taking me to Broadway, and so I did that throughout my childhood. For me, I would say Rent I loved. I mean, I still can listen to the music Wicked, I saw that on Broadway with the original cast just by complete happenstance.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Okay, I have a question. Oh, I have a question. Did you see it because when it first came out, it was a bomb like it didn't-- Did you see it before it got famous? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I saw it afterwards, it was with Kristin Chenoweth and--

Melanie Avalon: So, there was fanfare surrounding it when you saw it, because when it first came out, it did not take off. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, because it was 2005/2006 somewhere around there, because I was up there for a medical conference, and my girlfriend was like, “We should go see this play.” And I was kind of like, “Okay.” I had no idea what it was really even about. I just saw Hamilton, and I've been wanting to see Hamilton on Broadway for, I don't know, five years and with the pandemic that kind of nixed our ability to do that and that was amazing. To me, I have so much respect and reverence for people that work in the creative arts. I am not the least bit like, don't ask me to sing, don't ask me to act or dance in front of other people. I would be so embarrassed. I'd want to crawl in a hole, but I love to watch really talented people perform. I just have so much respect and admiration because it's so very different than where my zones of genius are.

As I was sitting there watching Hamilton with my husband and my boys, and I was like, “God, I feel so lucky to be in this zone of greatness.” Like, watching these really talented actors and actresses do what they do best.

Melanie Avalon: That is the exact way I feel. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I'm the kind of person, I actually get emotional when I'm watching people when they're really, really good at what they do whether it's dancing or singing or a play. I get a little like teary. It's almost like out of total admiration that I'm witnessing their greatness. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I feel the same and actually, I had a similar experience. I saw the original cast of Next to Normal. It was one of those things where I went in like you to Wicked like I didn't really know what I was going into and then I was just blown away. Ah, love musicals. 

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Here's another one and this kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier, “What are your tricks for keeping your stomach from puffing out? Do you use Spanx for that?”

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I don't generally have issues related to bloating. I'm probably blessed genetically with some of this on my own. Obviously, I no longer get a menstrual cycle, but when I did, when I was sometimes right before my period, and I would feel bloated. Spanx is great for that. There're different layers of levels of Spanx, so it's not all so constrictive you feel like you're going to die. For me, quite honestly, it's finding a balance between protein and vegetables. This is going to sound odd, but I'll kind of layer this in. When I'm eating a very protein dense diet and I'm eating cooked vegetables, I have little to no bloating, but if I go on a salad binge, like, I mean, a lot of raw vegetables, that can sometimes give me a little bit of bloat. I have to kind of moderate that. 

I got most of my bloating quite honestly from gluten and dairy. And now that I don't have those in my diet, it's not as much of an issue. But I can tell you, and I know we have a parasite question in this Google Doc that we're looking at when we talk about parasites. I will tell you about my bloating issues, but generally speaking, not a lot. I think a great deal of that has to do with dietary choices and not overeating. Like, I feel so miserable if I've overeaten or if I've eaten too much food that I just-- I know where my sweet spot is and if I'm kind of leaning into the protein and cook vegetables, I do really well. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, first thing I wrote was just suck it in. [both laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I mean, here's the other thing before you say the next thing. A lot of people when they talk about bloating, it's really not bloating. It's because their core is not very strong. So, again, I think some of this is just probably innately how I was made. I've always had a pretty strong core and I've always done Pilates. I've always done a lot of core focused work. If you think about your rectus abdominis and your obliques and all these muscles that work together to kind of hold you in and hold you up, if they're not strong, that can contribute to people perceiving that they're having bloating, when it's really just they have muscles that need a little bit of work, if that helps. 

Melanie Avalon: So that's interesting. That writes me of two things. One, I have this childhood memory, I don't know how old I was, I was probably like nine or ten and some aunt commented on my stomach sticking out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, well, sometimes kids have like lordosis and it's not even that their stomach sticking out, it's they have like a swayed lower back. It has nothing to do with the belly sticking out.

Melanie Avalon: That's what the aunt said. She was like, “Oh, this runs in the family or something.” But do you know how traumatic that is to be told that.

Cynthia Thurlow: People sometimes are thoughtless. I just don't realize they're filters off. It's like you could have said that or just not said that and we would have all been okay.

Melanie Avalon: Not to like a nine or ten-year-old, but what's interesting is, I think this is a fun little also lifehack, I feel like a good way to get a good core workout. So, I saw Trans-Siberian Orchestra recently. I realized I have my crazy concert outfit, which is like this really massive spark-- It looks like a dress, but not really because it's a two-piece, so it's like midriff bearing and then it's this massive sparkly dress. You can see it on my Instagram. It's incredible. In any case, I feel like it's a good hack to get a stomach workout if you wear something like that out, because then you're consciously holding in your stomach, like the entire time, unless you forget. But my first tip was just suck it in.

My second tip [laughs] was based on the digestion and finding the diet that works for you. For me, digestive enzymes are game changers for that. Finding a digestive enzyme supplement that works might help. Also, like Cynthia was saying finding the dietary combination a lot of people-- for me low FODMAP works really well and that keeps me not bloated. Also, oh, here's one. If you go carnivore for a lot of people your stomach will probably get very flat. I experienced that. Whenever I do experiment with a time of just meat, there's zero bloating. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, when and if we get to the parasite question in this episode, we can talk about this because that's how I knew something was very wrong and very, very wrong. I always say going back to an anti-inflammatory, like a real anti-inflammatory diet can sometimes be partial carnivore or carnivore for a couple of weeks can really be hugely impactful. But I always say just perceiving you have bloating is very different than looking six months pregnant bloating. There's that continuum that I think is important to identify. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm starting to think this might be like a four-part episode. It'll be like the AMA month. It'll be like January, the AMA month. [laughs] Okay, so, David, "Have either of you taken a DNA stool analysis for parasites?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, multiple times. I have had parasites, more benign parasites, like Blastocystis, which is very common. Let me just back up and say, it is very common to see parasites even in first world countries. Don't think that, oh, you haven't traveled, there's no way you've been exposed. It's really more about exposure and susceptibility. I think that the really exciting story to share is my Morocco tales, because that's where I got the worst food poisoning of my life. I had probably an acute parasite issue that morphed into a fairly significant parasite issue and we believe is a reason why I ended up developing a ruptured appendix and being so sick and necessitated. So, let me back up further and say that you can have an acute reaction to a parasite infestation and then you can have chronic parasitic infections. I have had both and the second one was harder to tease out. 

But I'm grateful that I have amazing colleagues who, as soon as I told them my symptoms, they were like, you definitely have X. I kept saying, “No, no I've done a GI map and it didn't show it.” And I ended up going through a parasite expert who puts your stool, your poop in a slide and looks at it under a microscope. Microscopy, which is pretty important, and I indeed had two parasites, and I had Candida and I had E. coli. Within one dose of antibiotics, I felt like a different person. There was no question there was something wrong with my gut because I had tremendous bloating. By the end of the day, I looked six months' pregnant, which is a problem because there's no way I'm pregnant. I had horrible, horrible gas, like, distinctively bad foul-smelling gas, and I just didn't feel good.

It didn't matter how much I slept, what I ate. It was like as soon as I ate it started this whole bloating, gas, loose stools situation that went on for probably a month until I had gotten the stool results back. It was actually an expensive test that's done out of a lab in New Mexico, But for me, life changing. I didn't want to go on it. I literally had to take one day of one antibiotic to kill this thing. I was so grateful that I had something that could treat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what antibiotic it was? 

Cynthia Thurlow: As I am saying this. So, this is Giardia. Giardia is generally transmitted in water. If you have like, as an example, doesn't mean everyone has a well. If you are exposed to contaminated water or people that have Giardia and they don't wash their hands after they go to the bathroom, you can get exposed to it. So, I took tinidazole. It's T-I-N-I-D-A-Z-O-L-E. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. It only took one and it knocks it out? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's like a large bolus of antibiotic. My husband had to be treated, too, even though we didn't test him. Parasites can be transmitted in saliva and sexually. I've done a lot of interesting international travel and this female physician friend of mine was adamant, as soon as I talked to her, she was like, I don't even need to test you, you have Giardia, but I didn't just have Giardia. I had another friend too, [laughs] so it was pretty disgusting. It was like literally one dose of medication and the next day I felt 1000% better. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Aren't you glad you asked it? I saw that question and I was like I will be happy to answer that question because conventional testing for ova and parasites does not always pick this up. Even the GI Map, which I clinically believe is a really really good test, never picked this up. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's one of the things. Because I've done parasite stool testing, I mean, probably multiple times. Honestly, I know some of them have been negative. I don't even remember if some of them pick something up. I just remember at one point I was working with a practitioner and it came back negative. But then he was like, “All your symptoms match parasites.” And he said most people have parasites. He had me do a course of Alinia, are you familiar with that one? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I am not personally, but only because I myself have not written a script for it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. He said that it was like a game-changing anti-parasite drug that revolutionized so many of his patients and it probably helped. It was during the time when I was at a really not feeling well place health wise, so I don't really know what was doing what, but I did do that. I also have done, I've talked about on the show before, have you taken Mimosa pudica? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. I've taken a lot of stuff, but I've not taken that. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Cynthia, and listeners, I know they've heard me talk about it before. Okay, this stuff, I should probably do another round of it. So, it doesn't kill anything. So, you don't get detox effects because it's not making anything angry. It's a very sticky gelatinous, something from some tree or something. The thing that's confusing about it and the reason I'm being so hesitant, like you can look it up, people have pictures. If you put it in water, you'll see that it forms a really long mucusy string. So, you end up passing that regardless. It's going to look like you're passing parasites regardless because it just looks like that after it comes out of you. But it will grab things and I swear to you, [laughs] the things that have come out by taking that were shocking to the point where I was like, I can't keep taking this is too scary. 

And that's the response. There are like groups dedicated to this basically, but it's super cheap. You can get on Amazon, Mimosa pudica and maybe I should make this someday. It's crazy, that's all I can say. It's crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think what's interesting as a traditionally trained provider, it's always amazing to me that there are a lot of herbs and antimicrobials including berberine as an example. It's a potent antimicrobial that can be very effective at getting rid of pathogens and they don't have the same detrimental impact on the gut microbiome that traditional antibiotics do. Let me be clear, there was no other option for me. There was no antimicrobial that was going to kill what I had because it was so substantial and significant. I'm like, I will be forever grateful that I got some validation. But having said that, it's just nice to know that there's a lot out there that we're still learning about herbs and other potent combinations of different ingredients that can be very beneficial at killing off what does not belong. If you need antibiotics to kill off what does not belong, there is no shame in that either. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think the thing I really want to emphasize about Mimosa is it's not killing anything. It's literally just physically grabbing stuff out of you. That's why people don't get the detox effects like I mentioned. That's why you can actually see an entire thing. It's crazy. [laughs] It's for parasites specifically. Yes, I agree 100% with what you're saying about. There are so many options and alternatives out there and it's nice that there's more and more awareness about it. Especially like with the berberine, people think about that primarily for blood sugar control. We talk about this in Episode 296 with Scott Emmens, I'll put a link to it. It was actually first used in 3000 BC, which is so long ago, and not for blood sugar control. They didn't even know that was a thing back then, but for gut inflammation and yeah, GI health, so crazy.

That actually reminds me of another question on here because I'm not saying antibiotics are bad, but they're definitely something where, there's a cost benefit and we don't want to be inundating ourselves with antibiotics 24/7, but we take them when necessary and they can be life changing like you said. Sort of in that vein, but not really because we don't really have anti-antibiotic rule. But this question is from Amy. She says, “I love the last episode where you both admitted you color your hair without shame [laughs] and not using cleaner options. I would be curious, what other things are you willing to "Bend the rules for?"”

Cynthia Thurlow: I'd probably say, like, if I go to a nice spa, there's an organic one in my area and I know what they use because we have conversations. But if someone takes me for a nice massage or I'm being treated to spa treatments, I do not micromanage what they're using on me because I will then not relax and enjoy myself. I'd probably say things that are leaning into pampering that are like gifts or they're just an experience. It's like I have to kind of readjust my expectations because if I start asking, then I'm going to be hyper focused on everything that's being used and that's actually not a lot of fun. I would probably say that is the other thing that I'm probably-- in that context, I'm probably very laid back versus what I purchase to use on my body at home. Very different. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. When I go to massage or I get my nails done, I always bring my own stuff, [laughs] actually, and that's good for a question later. I used to think it would be cumbersome, but I mean, I have to be always doing my nails because of my Instagram and stuff like that. There's this one oil, I can put a link to it on Amazon. It's an MCT oil, basically, but it's a massage MCT oil, but it's just organic MCT. You can use it for everything. So, when I get a massage, I bring it with me and they don't care. When I get a manicure, it actually makes it cheaper because then I bring that and I don't have to get all the fancy upgrades and I give them that and I just let them use that for all of the lotion and everything and anything else massage oil wise. And then I got so excited because up until recently, I was having to have them use the scrubs that they have there, but over the holidays, Beautycounter came out with a limited edition scrub and a body polish.

Cynthia Thurlow: I have that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so good. So, for instance, if they still have that, because they tend to have it past the holidays stock up on it. I stocked up on it. So now I actually bring that-- It's one of the gift sets. Now I actually bring that with me to the nail salon as well. My other things that I bend the rules on, well, with wine at home I only drink, Dry Farm Wines. If I'm going out, I look up people know I do this, I look up every single wine and I find the organic ones and that's how I decide. I really want to make an app for this, by the way, so stay tuned. I should make that a goal for 2023 to get this app out there. If I am at a place and there's no organic wine, I will drink nonorganic wine. [laughs] 

I don't enjoy that, but I will. People know I do Emsculpt religiously. I love it. I am very concerned about the amount of radiation that it gives your body, but I think the benefits that I get from it as far as building muscle are amazing. I don't do it on my abs. People ask me that a lot, but I'm a little bit concerned about doing it right over my organs like that. So, I just do basically my extremities, my thighs, my bottom, my butt, my arms. And then this is a big one. This is a big confession. I'm probably going to be writing about this. I haven't done it yet, but I am contemplating doing Botox preventatively in my forehead. I wasn't going to, but I had a consultation and I don't know, I started really thinking about it, like, the preventative action of it and not having wrinkles down the line. So, I think what I'm going to do is because basically it's a trade-off of putting that because it is a neurotoxin. So, putting that into your body and the cost benefit, you just have to weigh the cost benefit, I think, of what matters to you or not. If I do do it, well, A, I'm going to do a ton of research. B, I really want to write a really epic blog post about this if I do it, because I think people will think if you do Botox that means that the rest of your skin care doesn't matter or that you don't value skincare. I think I want to kind of educate people on again. I need to do the research first, but if I proceed with this route, I want to maybe spread the word or awareness about the cost benefits of Botox and also why it's still super important to have really non-toxic clean skin care and why you might have both. So, we shall see.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think that's okay. I've always been very honest. In fact, when I was on Drew's podcast for the second time, we were talking in the context about Liver King. So, I'm sure most listeners know about Liver King and how he predominantly was focusing on this kind of paleolithic lifestyle and eating organ meats. God bless him, he eats organ meats, like, with reckless abandon. Like, it's fascinating. But as soon as I saw him, I remember saying to my son, who was like putting him up on a pedestal, I said you realize that guy is on a lot of steroids. 

Melanie Avalon: That's what everybody says. He denies it. Right? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, what came out recently was his steroids, like his anabolic steroid schedule and his stack of growth hormone and a bunch of other things. So, in that context-

Melanie Avalon: I missed that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: -yeah, I was saying it to Drew, I think it's important for people that are in the public eye that are influencers to be very, it's not like you have to disclose everything, but you should be honest. I think it's important for me as a middle-aged woman, in the context of our conversation, to say every year I do ProFractional, which is laser, stimulates collagen and elastin. I think that has a lot to do with why my skin looks really really good. I think some of its genetics and I think some of it's my lifestyle. And then I do Botox, I've done Botox since I was 38. I started doing Botox because I have always had a super mobile forehead and that's where it started. And I still do Botox a couple of times a year. I have done filler a few times. I've had it reversed as well.

I think a lot of if-- you chose to go that route and there's no judgment if you do. You want to work with someone that's incredibly talented. You should never look like you've had work. You should never look like your face is immobile. You should never look like your lips look, like this is just my personal opinion. You shouldn't look like you have massive lips and like crazy high cheekbones and just understanding. I think those products are designed to be used subtly, but I think if you see some people that are in Hollywood that are like the extremes, too much of any one thing is not a good thing. In the context of this conversation, I feel like I should be transparent and say that obviously a laser is pretty benign in terms of stimulating collagen and elastin. I don't per se have a problem with using Botox or fillers very discriminately because so much of the rest of my life is so incredibly healthy and balanced.

And to the person in my DMs recently who was giving me a hard time about the fact that I shared those things. Yeah, this is why people that are in, whether they're influencers, they're in the public eye, this is why people honestly don't want to share because they don't want to be criticized. But I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with that decision because to me it's my decision. With that being said, I think I would be doing the listeners a disservice if I didn't share that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for sharing that and I am so enjoying this conversation. I have some quick thoughts and questions. One, mentioning the laser, is that the same thing as BBL? 

Cynthia Thurlow: So, I'm going to say BroadBand Light is different than the Brazilian butt lift because I very innocently last year said, “Oh, I got BBL.” And people were like, “You did?” 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you said that to me. I remember you were like, you said you were getting BBL. So, something about the next day and I was like, “Oh goodness, that's like an intense surgery,” because I think we still recorded a podcast maybe the next day. I was like, “How is she doing this right now.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, this tells you how long I've been doing BBL. It was preceded the Brazilian butt lift, which I'm told is going out of favor according to my plastic surgeon friends, which is a whole separate tangential rabbit hole that we won't jump down. In conjunction with ProFractional, I do BBL and what it's doing is any brown pigmentation. I don't have a lot of hyperpigmentation in my skin. We do that preceding the ProFractional. I hate it. I hate both of them honestly. It's like a love-hate. I'm doing it in January, which is usually the month I do it. I hide for four days and then I feel fine. With that being said, the laser in and of itself is looking for the pigmentation helps dissolve it. If you have some brown pigmentation, the laser will identify it, it will help dissipate it, but it will actually get darker for a couple of days or maybe a week and then it goes away. 

For me, I think the two of those together have been super powerful. But, for anyone that's just doing BBL - BroadBand Light, it is not painless. Make sure whoever you're working with is like getting you prepared for that because it's almost like having a rubber band snapped against your skin. As you can well imagine, doing it once is not a big deal. If they're doing your whole face that can be painful. Just make sure that they're giving you either topical lidocaine or giving you something to make you feel comfortable. 

Melanie Avalon: Although caveat, also check and make sure your practitioner lets you use that because it was during the podcast last time when we were talking about I was going to go do it and then I put on numbing cream during the podcast, which apparently is some people let you. But, where I went to Ideal Image, which I'll say their name because I think they're the biggest. They're like the go-to place. They do not let you use numbing cream. So, do not use numbing cream if you're going to them.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and my practitioner, they put it on for you. Like when you arrive, you arrive an hour before your treatment and they put it on for you. With very few exceptions, I'm very comfortable with BBL. There are spots when they do ProFractional that are tender, like along your forehead line. It freaks me out when they do underneath my eyes and my nose is a little sensitive, but beyond that, not bad. Not bad at all. 

Melanie Avalon: I've heard that old therapy is the most painful thing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Morpheus is supposed to be very, very painful. I'm not ready, if someone were to give and actually the person I go to who trains providers all over the United States doesn't use those technologies yet, because she still feels like ProFractional has just as much benefits. But every time I see her, I'm like, “So what's the latest?” And then she'll kind of get me caught up.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting though, because you mentioned the laser, so I was talking with a friend about whether or not I should do Botox or not. It's funny because he mentioned people doing lasers and Botox and whether or not you talk about it on social media, it's interesting that for some reason, Botox, I think, has more of a stigma. I have literally no issue talking about BBL or lasers or that seems almost like biohacking in a way, but for some reason, Botox feels more fake. I don't know why because I was thinking about it more, it's not even affecting your skin, it's just paralyzing the muscle underneath so you're not wrinkling your forehead all the time and not forming those lines that last. So, I find that really interesting. I mean, I think you could make the argument that well, maybe not it's because you can make the argument that Botox is biohacking [laughs] but--

Cynthia Thurlow: I think you could and here's the thing, like, I just interviewed Dr. Amy Killen, who's a female biohacker physician, and she's so knowledgeable and offline we were having discussion about some of the things that she does. She's very transparent and that's why I hope to be just as much for listeners so they can kind of get a true sense, like some of this is genetic, some of its lifestyle, and then I get help from other things. That's what we're sharing in the context of this conversation. Amy was talking about, she does all the things, PRP, stem cell stuff. It's very interesting. There's a continuum. It's all very relative. To some people, Botox may be like taboo and then others are like, "I'll do everything up to surgery." Some people are like, "I want to do everything up to surgery and surgery," and there's no judgment provided that you can afford it and you're not body dysmorphic. I think that everyone has to decide what they're comfortable with and what makes sense. From my perspective, I just wanted to add that caveat that I think I want to be fully transparent as a 51-year-old female that I try to do as many things as I can to feel as good as I look internally and reflect that externally as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I could not agree more. And then when I was talking to that friend, I said, I was like, “Well, it's a neurotoxin.” He was like, “Well, wine is a neurotoxin.” I was like good point [laughs] or alcohol. Yeah, no, I agree with the perspective and what's important to you and no judgment and just do you.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's just a healthier space to exist, and I don't have the emotional bandwidth to sit around and be judgy of other people's choices. It's like as long as you're not hurting anyone, there's very few absolutes where I'm okay, that's not a good decision. If you're harming yourself, a child, an animal, other humans, that's not good. Beyond that, it's like, I just don't have the bandwidth to worry about what everyone else is doing. It's like, if it works for you, that's great. If it doesn't, then course correct. 

Melanie Avalon: Also, one last thing to that point and I mentioned this earlier, but it's like, oh, if you're getting Botox, people might think you're lying about the importance of safe skin care or antiaging skin care. But, if you think about it, they're all really important. Like doing a process where you're paralyzing the muscle and keeping wrinkles from forming from just the mechanics of your skin doesn't negate the super overwhelming importance of taking care of your skin. Like, you would still need to do both.

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I’m ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie or actually will drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It’s important to note that it’s made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome, as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you’re traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that’s athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out.

Melanie Avalon: Damon wanted to know, laser hair removal, is it worth it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. It's funny. You do laser therapy and then you realize in your 40s into your early 50s, you don't have as much body hair. So, I'm like, what was I thinking. I went gangbusters in my 30s. Yes, yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I don't think I commented on barely any of the comments in the thread. But when I saw this one, all I did was I wrote yes, all caps.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, think about it. People spend years doing bikini waxes and electrolysis.

Melanie Avalon: And think about forgetting to shave your underarms or your legs. You don't have to anymore.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, although it's funny, I did my legs and my bikini area and I guess I took too well to it because I bought a package. They were like, literally “You've done so well. What else can we do? What else can we do for you?” For me, it was like life changing because I had done like, bikini waxes every month forever and eternity, and then all of a sudden I was like, this is great. 

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because when they try to sell you stuff and they're like, “This will be the best thing ever,” and you're like, “But really?” No, it really is. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, it's resounding. It is worth every penny, every single penny. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I've done the Brazilian, the arms, the legs. Now I'm doing the upper lip. I think that's everything. [laughs] There's nothing left.

Cynthia Thurlow: I had blonde hair on my face. I've been just doing dermaplaning because to me and it's like, here's a fun topic for conversation. During the pandemic, when I could not get to get threaded or dermaplaning or anything, my anesthetician had recommended something called Tinkle, T-I-N-K-L-E. You can find it on Amazon. It's like really inexpensive and it's a little like razor for women, so you can get rid of fuzz on your face. Oh my God life changing. I literally was like, what was I spending all this money on threading for, for years [laughs] and then waxing before that. I was like, “Oh my God.” 

Melanie Avalon: Is it special or is it just a little razor? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's for your face and it's not as strong as what a man would use. To me, it's like I can use it in between facials. And it's amazing, just amazing. For all those little weird hairs, if you like mind just tweeze them. I'm like, “Oh my God, this is amazing.” So highly recommend.

Melanie Avalon: They always have these at Marshalls and TJ Maxx. Maybe not that brand, but I use those or I used to. Oh no, I still do because I'm still doing the upper lip. Okay, here's back to non-skincare health, beauty-related things. What are your top three book recommendations besides your own?

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I've given this a lot of thought, I would say the books that are really in terms of health and wellness, I'm going to just leave it there because there're so many books. I would say the books that really shifted my perspective on a lot of different things, XX Brain by Dr. Lisa Mosconi, who I've been trying to interview for a year. She's like knee deep in research. She works at Cornell. That book helped me solidify why women-- and this is my opinion why women can benefit from hormone replacement therapy.

I would say the other book that I found really helpful, like in that space is Why Estrogen Matters by Dr. Avrum Bluming and Carol Tavris. I have had him on the podcast. We will link that in the show notes. The Women's Health Initiative is probably the most detrimental study that's ever been conducted on women in terms of the net impact on practitioners prescribing hormones and women taking hormones. You have a whole generation of clinicians and women who are fearful to take and/or prescribe medications. 

I would say, most recently, a book that really has had what I would say is this book, is the book I can read now because I've done the work. The Myth of Normal by Dr. Gabor Mate and that podcast will be out with him on December 24th. So, talking about the role of trauma in your life, I mean, he's changing the narrative for the way that we view trauma and doing it in a way that is through the lens of compassion and as someone that's a survivor of childhood trauma, both physical and emotional. For me, that book just allowed me to view my parents from a very compassionate lens. I would say those books right now in terms of health and wellness are the books that I probably recommend the most. For full disclosure, they're not easy-breezy reads. Lisa Mosconi's book, I think, is one that I recommend quite a bit to patients and clients that is more accessible. Myth of Normal is excellent, it's long and I would say that Why Estrogen Matters is a good read as well. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: That's really awesome recommendations. So, I think my favorite is Lifespan. Oh, wait. No, I'm torn. Well, okay. So, Lifespan, David Sinclair's book, Why We Age and Why We Don't Have To. It's basically just everything I'm obsessed with. And what I love, when I interviewed him on the show, I might have told you this. Did you know he drew all of the characters in the back? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? So talented. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He said that because in the very back there's hand drawn pictures of the people and everything. He drew all of those. He said he drew them because he wanted to put the actual pictures or whatever, but they couldn't get the rights to everything. So, he's like, “I'll just draw it.” [laughs] Isn't that crazy? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's along the lines of, like, when I'm in awe of people that are doing something artistic on a stage in the performing arts, okay, there's another level to my respect for him. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, it's insane. And if so you listen to my, that was the first interview I had with him. If you listen to it, he tells me this in real time, and I'm just, like, in shock, in shock. I'll probably say, this is so hard. You know what I haven't read The Paleo Solution since I read it in, like, 2012. But that's what changed my life. Like, that's the reason I'm doing what I'm doing today. Robb Wolf's book, I think I will have to include that I'm torn between James Nestor's Breath and I think I might have to do Kelly McGonigal's The Upside of Stress just because that book-- I need to try to get her on the show. That book was so valuable for me because I started stressing so much about stress, which, yes, stress has a lot of negative health effects. That's no surprise. It's not really negotiable. There's this whole aspect to it where perception affects how stress affects you. And so, reading that book took the biggest weight off of my shoulders about stress and how you can reframe your experience of stress and use it to your benefit rather than as a detriment. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that. It's someone said to me years ago, trying to pick your favorite book is like trying to pick your favorite child, it's impossible. Where I sit, where my desk is in my study, I literally have the ability to see hundreds of books. It's so hard because there're so many great books that I've read, but it's impossible to have a favorite. Just for listeners to understand, those are the three that have had the most impact on me. They've just completely blown my mind. Obviously, the ones that Melanie is identifying, two out of three I've already read. But I'm always reading. Just like, Melanie, I've actually got Sally Norton's new book on my floor to read, I'm like after I get done with podcast prep for this week. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel so bad because I always get her confused with Susan Owens because they both talk about oxalates a lot. I've had her on the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, this will be my first time. I've had one other oxalate expert who I think is trained with her, but her book is coming out. So, I was like, it's probably time to revisit the oxalate issue. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. I didn't realize she had a new book coming out. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's called Toxic Superfoods. [laughs] I'm sure there will be lots of overlap with Gundry's kind of methodologies about plant-based toxins.

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. Awesome. Here's a quick one. This is from Danielle, "What is your favorite holiday tradition?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I think a lot of the traditions that are important for us is just a lot of togetherness, a lot of disconnection from work and social media and things like that. I would say there're a lot of things that we have done as a family including like decorating the tree, decorating the house, making cookies. When my kids were younger, they were more interested, invested in those things. But I think it's the quietness around, like Christmas Eve when we go to Mass and then we read particular Christmas books and then there's a nice meal and just savoring that time. There was a recent study that came out and it talked about how much time you spend with different people throughout your lifetime. As someone with a 17-year-old and 15-year-old, I read this study and my heart hurt. The great thing that I'm going to bring to this conversation is that it just reaffirms why it's so important to connect with one another. 

So, when I think about holidays, I just see it as connection, like spending time together, making meals together, making memories together, not per se, like one specific thing, like do we drive around and look at Christmas lights? Yes. Do we make specific kinds of meals? Yes. But what I value the most, especially now that my kids are older, is just being together, being silly, watching movies, trying to deal with all of the challenges of navigating in laws and parents and expectations for kids and everything else. How about you? Does your family have special traditions around Christmas or the holidays? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I'm obsessed with everything Christmas, and mine was basically the same on Christmas Eve, we'd always had a tradition growing up of opening like, one present the night before and trying to make it a present that is something we could do together. Normally it's like if somebody gave somebody a game or something, and then we would do the gift and yeah, that's always been my favorite thing hands down. We are a big wine loving family. Having the Christmas wine and opening the presents and the Christmas Eve and playing the music, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, I am all about it. I love it. Actually, what we've started doing, I feel like it's been ever since everybody's been adults, it's been changing around. Now sometimes I think last year, maybe even the year before, we opened all of our presents just on Christmas Eve, the night before, because people are more, I don't know, spirited and lively in the evening than coming all over during the day.

Cynthia Thurlow: We've tried that. My kids always beg. My husband's kind of a traditionalist about the gift stuff. I think because I grew up with divorced parents, we just opened gifts. When we opened gifts, it wasn't regimented. My kids every year are like, can't we just open gifts on Christmas Eve. And my husband gets very rigid. I just always say, my husband's 90% of the time he's really easy going, and if he gets fixated one thing, I just tell the kids, back off. So, yeah, they're allowed to open one gift on Christmas Eve and then the rest on Christmas. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We didn't start doing this until very recently, and we're all very much adults now, but growing up like your kids' age, we never did more than one the night before. I don't think we even wanted to. My dad is that way with Monopoly, because Monopoly is always the game we would always play, and we'd always want to do things like play how there's, like, 50 million spin offs of Monopoly, like, all the different themes? No, he, like, only wants to play the original. We would always have debates about, like, the rules and because there's a lot of, I think, like, little fun things you can add or change the rules little bit, nope. [laughs] It had to be the traditional way in the rule book. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm married to an engineer, so I'll just leave that there. Anyone that's married to engineers, know engineers, you understand they can be a little rigid sometimes, but I give him a lot of credit because he's usually pretty laid back about a lot of other things. 

Melanie Avalon: So funny. Two last quick ones. So, one is sort of health related. Leslie says, “I work at HOTWORX, 24 hours Infrared Fitness Studio. What do you think about a 3D workout heat exercise infrared sauna?” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I know exactly what HOTWORX is and I love the idea. I'm going to come at this from two lenses. So, number one, I hate being hot, really hot when I'm exercising. Hate it. Like warm yoga, good. Ashtanga yoga, that's at 105 degrees. No, don't enjoy it at all. For me personally that would be a no, because I just don't enjoy being really hot unless it's hot because I'm exercising at a level that I'm increasing my basal metabolic rate and my internal thermostat.

Number two, I think the concept of a 3D workout sounds great. I think it's probably highly bio individual. If you are a 25-year-old woman who is really lean and you're pushing yourself all the time, and you're not getting a menstrual cycle and you're overdoing it, I kind of call it the triad of over fasting, over exercising, over restricting. 

But I think for probably the average person, it's probably, like, a fun way to exercise. We have to think about what heat and exercise are. They're forms of hormesis. It's the right amount of stress at the right time. I think that it's important to recognize where are you in your cycle, how is your sleep, what's your stress like. Like, it's just adding additional stressors to your body. I think in the context of someone who's sleeping well, who's in the follicular phase of their menstrual cycle, who doesn't have too much stress, that's not overdoing it and is staying hydrated, it's probably fun. That would be my guess. 

Melanie Avalon: That was basically my answer, was that I think it could be really great like, it can be a great way of hacking and getting more bang for your buck as far as benefits go. But you also need to know yourself. I'm literally just spitting out what you just said. You have to know yourself and some people it's going to be too much and it's going to be overdoing it and it's not going to have the beneficial effects in the long term because it's not allowing the adequate recovery in between. And if it's fitting into an overly stressful lifestyle anyway, it might not be the way to go. I think you really just have to know yourself. I haven't done HOTWORKX. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. no offense to anyone who loves working out in a super hot environment. I hate it. I've been that way my whole life. Hate it with a capital H. For me, like if I went to the gym and it was cold in the gym, good. If I walk outside and it's kind of hot and humid, not as interested in walking as long. But it's not that I don't see the utility I just personally hate being that hot. I hate it, just despise it. The only thing I can compare it to is like, being in Morocco, which was like an oven. [laughs] We're telling my husband I don't think we'll ever come back because it was just so hot. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm the same besides my sauna sessions where the purpose is being hot and it's relaxing, especially with infrared, not getting that hot. But I'm not about the heat. I'm all about the cold. are you guys getting a crazy cold front because it's getting down next week to 10 degrees. It doesn't get 10 degrees here. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Atlanta is going to be in a kerfuffle. Yeah. For me, it's like when I walked my dogs this morning, it was 30 degrees and it's like perfect for them. I put a hat on, I've got a light jacket on and I'm totally happy. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so pumped. Especially because the last few years has been warm on Christmas, it's going to be like 15 degrees. I am all about it. This is going to be great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I just feel like Christmas should be cold. We had, gosh it was probably ten years ago, we got snow in Virginia on Christmas Eve and it was like a dusting, but that's still like in Northern Virginia that's a shutdown mode. Everyone's freaking out. I was like, this is completely appropriate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just worried about ever since that Texas, was it Austin or wherever when it got really cold and didn't it mess up all of the water, like the pipes and everything. I'm like, please, that cannot happen. [laughs] I need my toilet.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you know what they always say. I lived in a neighborhood in Northern Virginia and most of the homes were new construction when people bought them and the builder knucklehead that they were a lot of exterior pipes were freezing during really cold spells. If you're ever concerned about your water freezing in a pipe. You can always keep your water like a little drip just to kind of keep things moving. Yeah, lots of experience with friends who went through that. Not fun. Not fun at all. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they always post-- when it starts getting cold they post signs everywhere saying, “Freeze warning and let your faucets drip.” Okay, well, this was fun. This is definitely going to be a two-parter. I'm thinking it's probably going to be a three-parter, maybe a four-parter. 

In any case, for listeners, if they would like to submit their own questions for the show and if this is your first episode listening, which since we get so many listeners, it probably is somebody's first episode listening, welcome to that person. Normally we talk about Intermittent Fasting a little bit more. You can submit your own questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode300. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So, definitely check that out and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. Well, this is been really, really fun, Cynthia. Anything from you, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I'm looking forward to round number two.

Melanie Avalon: All right, sounds good. I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jan 01

Episode 298: Clean Hair Products, Skipping Meals & Mortality, Dietary Recall Studies, Defining OMAD, Breaking Fast Easily, Satiety, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

ATHLETIC GREENS: 75 High-Quality Vitamins, Minerals, Whole-Food Sourced Ingredients, Probiotics, And Adaptogens In One Delicious Scoop! Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #110 - Jon Levy

Ep. 160 – The Power Of Behavior-Centric Health & Wellness: Trade-Offs for a Long and Happy Life with Jon Levy

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

Listener Feedback: Diane - Better hair products

KNOW YOUR ENVIRONMENT. PROTECT YOUR HEALTH. EWG.

Episode 294: Creatine, Excess Skin, Toning Up, Clean Hair Dye, Hormones, Caffeine, Cortisol, Hormetic Stress, Jet Lag, Hydration, Melatonin, And More!

Listener Q&A: Cara - New study found increase risk of early mortality with fasting?

Meal Skipping and Shorter Meal Intervals Are Associated with Increased Risk of All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality among US Adults

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Kemla - Does it matter?

Episode 116: The Great OMAD Debate

Listener Q&A: Nancy - one meal a day?

Listener Q&A: Spencer - Breaking fast

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off. Yes, all of that incredible meat, plus $10 off, all for free. We are a bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox, which is always in season. Some of my favorite meals that I had throughout the holiday season were fantastic meat and seafood from ButcherBox. Now with the new year, it is time to celebrate with only the very best of the best when it comes to meat and seafood that you put in your body, as well as meat and seafood that helps support our planet and the environment.

They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that’s really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you’re joining a community focused on doing what’s better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox.

All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished and they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door and it is so delicious. I love carpaccio for example. The ButcherBox steaks are incredible for that. That's how you know it's good steak when you can eat it rare like that and ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience.

You can get the New Year bundle for free, plus $10 off when you sign up today. That's a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, in your first box. Sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. Again, to get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off, sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting. It's actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. 

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more. 

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I’m Melanie Avalon and I’m here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, Cynthia. Can I tell you a story and also ask you a question? They're unrelated.

Cynthia Thurlow: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, great. [chuckles] This week I had a really crazy moment. I had two interviews for press-related stuff, and I was prepping for one of the interviews. You might have seen this on my story, so I'm sorry if I'm telling the story again. I was prepping for one of the interviews and I knew one of the questions was going to be about being a female entrepreneur. So, I googled, well in DuckDuckGo but it happened in Google too. I checked. In DuckDuckGo, I googled “tips female entrepreneur” the first hit, literally the first hit was an article from Forbes, and it was the one I was in. And not only was it the first hit, but the preview text was my part of the article. So, I literally googled something to prep for the next day and I was the first hit. Isn't that crazy. I keep thinking about that. That's very surreal. Like, out of all the people in the world. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I thought it was funny that I was trying to find the answer and I clearly already had the answer. Yeah, that was my fun story. And then I have a question, but do you have any fun stories you would like to share? I know you saw Hamilton.

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. We were in New York City this past weekend, so my family and I, it's the first time we've all been together in New York in five years, which is hard to believe and it's very different with preteens versus teenagers. We had a lot of fun and Hamilton was worth every effort at seeing it on Broadway. I'm just phenomenal. The irony is I flew back to New York two days later for the Influencers Dinner. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, with John. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Which I did last night, which was amazing. I met such amazing human beings and people that were in different fields. The irony is the only person who guessed.

Melanie Avalon: Who all were there? 

Cynthia Thurlow: There were artists, there were chief marketing officers for major brands, like recognizable brands. There was a cardiologist who was in the midst of the pandemic, like, hitting New York City, who was absolutely brilliant. People just in different fields, but all really interesting like, there was a guy who had been a record producer for, like, Biggie and Pink, just such a diverse group of people, but no egos. Everyone was lovely and you were not allowed to give your last name or what you did. So, we were all interacting and then went about putting a meal together and then sat and had a meal. We went around the table trying to guess what everyone did. 

The person who guessed correctly, what I did turned out to be the cardiologist, even though we had not even talked about any of these things. He was just such a cool person. I would never have guessed he was a cardiologist because of his personality. He was just kind of more free spirited and relaxed and not nearly as intense as most of the other people. I had an amazing evening, but I was up really late for me and then was up at 04:00 in the morning and I'm working on a solid, like, 4 hours of sleep. So, I'm sure tonight I will crash. But right now, I'm running on adrenal and it was an incredible experience. I told John that you said, “Hello.” 

Melanie Avalon: That makes me so happy. I love hearing about those events. I really want to go to one as well. John keeps sending me all the dates. I'm like, “I'm going to come to one, I promise.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, it was a lot of fun. I guess the thing that was really interesting was one of the we thought was participants turned out to be his mom, who was so lovely. I got to meet her and she was visiting from Israel. It's interesting when you see people in their natural habitat because this was actually a dinner at John's house. He was totally gracious and very supportive. I went home with a signed copy of his most recent book. His dad was this incredible artist and went home with a book of his father. So, it was like, all in all, just a really incredible, like less than 24-hour experience. Yeah, no more New York travel for a while. 

Melanie Avalon: That is amazing. John and I have been bouncing off ideas. I don't know if we're going to do this. We've been thinking we should start a podcast or something just because we talk about all of these crazy, random topics. He's so well connected. I just feel like there's a lot that we could do. [chuckles] So that's so exciting. Wow. Yay.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It was a really great experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes. Cynthia and I both had John on our shows, so we will put links to the episodes that we had with him. His book you're invited is super cool. It's all about how well, I think the subtitle is something about the art of cultivating influence. But it's about how people cultivate influence. It's about how people become, like, respected leaders with communities and basically leaders of groups and things like that. It's really interesting. It's human psychology. So why people do what they do. So, yeah. 

Cynthia Thurlow: What was really interesting was that only a few people in the room knew who he was, but they still came to this dinner, which I thought was so cool because someone said to me, like, “How do John?” I said, “Oh, well, through my friend Melanie, but I've also had him on my podcast.” He made sure that he was like, if you ever need any support in your business or you have questions, I'm here for you. I think it's a really phenomenal way to network with people because you're so disarmed, because you're not allowed to lean into what's easy, meaning, like talking about your work or leading with your title, whatever it is that however people lead. That's not the way that I am. When you're making a meal with people, you really just get very relaxed, invested in the process. And so, we even helped clean up. We even did dishes. Everyone was part of making the meal, cleaning up for the meal. It was a really delightful evening. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so fun. It's nice for him, too, not to have to do dishes at the end [chuckles] of all these dinners because he has a lot of them and he does them in LA, San Francisco, and New York. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well and I think it's just nice to feel like this is really the first time I've been in New York. Maybe in September when I was there, when I spoke, but this is the first time I've been back in New York where it's felt like the New York I remember. There's still a lot of mask-wearing, that's a whole tangential conversation and there's no judgment. I'm just saying observationally. There was a lot of mask-wearing and people just being conscientious, but people just seemed, like, happy to be back interacting in person in real life with other humans. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's awesome. I should probably say his last name is John Levy. I don't think I said that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: He's so smart. He was even talking about his siblings, all of whom are incredibly accomplished, too. When we found out his mom was at the table, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so amazing.” 

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Yeah, I love that. My question for you, because this episode airs January 2nd, so this will be the day after New Year's Eve or the day after New Year's Day. Cynthia, do you make New Year's resolutions and do you recommend that people do?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that I personally don't per se change a lot from year to year. I'm of course open to the possibility, but I try to have a word of the year. That's what I lean into. In some years balance or dedication or whatever I'm leaning into and so, I'm mulling over the idea of what is going to be my focus for 2023. On a lot of different levels, I think it's probably going to be clarity about where I am in my business and where I am in my personal life. So, I do think it's a good idea to evaluate behaviors, what works, what doesn't work. But to me, I don't like to think of it as like a New Year's resolution because that to me, really means a temporary thing, whereas if I have a focus for the year, that's how I choose to frame it so that it's something I'm going to be consistently working on month to month, day to day. And so, clarity is my 2023 word, I'm fairly certain. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That is super cool. I like that. That's a very practical, implementable thing that people could do. Maybe I should do that. I don't really and I think it's because I kind of feel like every day is like a New Year's resolution day. Like constantly, I’ve so many dreams and goals, and I always feel very inspired and motivated to be doing them. So, it doesn't feel like, “Oh, this is the chance to start anew.” I'm constantly in that vibe. Not to say that people who make.

Cynthia Thurlow: Growth headspace.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, but I don't mean by that people who make New Year's resolutions aren't that way. It's just it doesn't feel like a milestone in my personal life right now. It might change. I'd be really curious though, if people want to tell us their New Year's resolutions. I wonder if the most common New Year's resolutions like what they are. Like the top 10. I would bet one of them is weight loss, but I bet one's probably career related.

Cynthia Thurlow: So, I am fully adulting now and between our financial advisor, our financial planner, my CPA in my business, it's like we've gotten very granular. I think part of the clarity piece for me, just for full transparency, is that we've gotten really, really, really specific in my business about where my energies go, where they do not. I'll give you an example as I'm sure it happens to you. You get asked a lot to do press, you get asked a lot to do guest podcasts. I was finding that I was spending so much time supporting other people's podcasts that I wasn't creating the space for me to be able to be in my business and not be stressed going from one thing to another. One of the rules that I created with my team was that I only do two guest podcasts a month and I could easily do 20.

It's one of those things where we've gotten very specific about what metrics, what's their audience like, is it a good fit. That's made me very happy because coming off of the book launch, this year has been wonderful but exhausting and it's not a pace I want to keep up. This is not to suggest my podcast is going anywhere or this podcast is going anywhere. I'm just talking about guest podcasting and is it in my best interest to be overcommitting myself. So, as an example, we've already filled the two spots in December, we filled the two in January, now we're working on February. That has allowed me to feel like I have a little bit more breathing space and so we're doing things like that because that serves my higher purpose. Then I can devote more time to my business and not feel super stressed, which has been my baseline this whole year for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no. I think that's amazing and that's something I've been really working on as well, is you want to just say yes to everything, but you can't. You need to know [chuckles] when to say no and that's okay. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, and it's interesting, when you really start getting granular about metrics and who is their audience, is it really serving my best interest and their own to have me on. We've had to politely say no to a lot of opportunities because I either don't want to be traveling all the time, that's another thing. Getting very clear about what speaking events I'm going to do and what are the things that are going to lead to more opportunities and understanding that, you and I both know this that our time is valuable as is everyone's. but does it serve me to be on planes and flying all over if it's really not laser focused on what I'm working towards. That's the one thing I would say, “Clarity.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I'm ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie, or actually we'll drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It's important to note that it's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome, as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you're traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: All ready. Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, this is actually some feedback from a listener. We recently were discussing toxic hair products and whether or not there were options for coloring your hair and we provided some brands. We just got some quick feedback from Diane, and the subject is “Better Hair Products.” And she says, “Hi there, just wanted to remind folks about the EWG website. Listening to your last podcast, someone asked about less toxic hair color/care. I've been looking for a while, and I found a few cheaper brands of hair shampoos and conditioners as I like to switch them often. Herbal Essence has some that rated low. Obviously, the scented ones rate a bit higher. Unscented castile soap is a one." I'm just going to insert something. This is Melanie talking. I am obsessed with unscented castile soap. I use it for everything. Do you use it, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. 

Melanie Avalon: I use it in the shower to take my makeup off and the sink to wash my hands. I mean, that stuff is just amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: And it lasts a while. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's incredible. I think you can also use it for the dishwasher and clothes if you make certain concoctions, but I haven't done that. She says, “I'm sure there are more, but I can't get into my personal list on the EWG website, I also found a pump hairspray that smells edible. It's raspberry and reminds me of one from the 80s that I used to use, but this is much friendlier and far less toxic. It's made by All-Nutrient, which is local to me, but I see they sell it on Amazon. I also tried a brand called I think it's Qet and the sample they sent, but it was the size of a paperclip and despite my toddler-sized hands, I couldn't even spray the thing. As far as color and lighting, I'm with you. I asked my three hairdresser friends to research this and find the least toxic/gentlest kinds, but no luck yet. Love listening to and learning from you and Cynthia XOXOX.”

I'll just comment if listeners check out that other episode. We did list quite a few dye brands that were options and I would actually love if people do have experience with nontoxic hair dye. I would love to hear if people have found brands that they like, because it's definitely one of the areas where there doesn't seem to be a lot of options. I'm surprised we didn't mention the EWG. Definitely, the EWG is amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, their Skin Deep app is certainly very helpful. Diane, thank you so much for sharing those. It gives us more options to consider. Listeners, if there are other brands that you like using that are cleaner, certainly pass them along. I think to me it is a work in progress. Hair is my pain point. I'm very transparent about that, but that does not mean that there aren't wonderful options that are out there. I'm just happy I'm using Argan oil, which is super helpful for the frizz that I experience about eight months out of the year, here in very humid hot Virginia. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to growing up in Memphis and the hair situation. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I didn't realize you grew up in Memphis. I thought you grew up in Atlanta. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, I was here until 10. I was in Memphis my formative years of 10 until 17. So, middle school and high school, elementary school part of it. What's interesting is out of the entire timeline of my life, I've lived in Memphis the least. Compared to Atlanta and Los Angeles, Memphis feels like where I've lived the longest because it was when I was growing up. 

Cynthia Thurlow: So cool. Little known facts. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is a question from Kara and it says, “New study found to increase risk of early mortality with fasting. Please interpret.” "Hi, I saw this post on Instagram from @fastingmd. The study is referenced in the show notes. She mentions, “I love this way of life. I typically fast while I'm seeing patients because I know my brain is more clear and I am more focused. It's usually about 18 hours. I've recently tried a snack at 2:30 to take probiotics for leaky gut, but I just don't like the way I feel less on if I do have a snack. After months of trying to figure out my gut issues, I went to a functional medicine practitioner based on your advice. It was the best thing I've ever done. I had no idea how not normal my bathroom experiences were, but also the amount of mental exhaustion from worrying and trying to figure out what it was that I ate that caused the issues. I tried eliminating every food category with very little improvement. To the listeners out there who this is ringing true for, go get a specialist to guide you. I am a healthcare practitioner and I couldn't solve it on my own. I'd love to hear your opinions about the study, Kara. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, Kara, thank you so much for your question and your experience. I will just comment with the probiotic snack thing. I don't know which probiotic you're taking, but a lot of probiotics you could take it with your meal or possibly even on an empty stomach. I would just look at your probiotic again and see if it indicates that it needs to be taken with food. But I feel like most probiotics you could take on an empty stomach, so that might be an option. Also, thank you for sharing your experience and your openness about being a healthcare practitioner and realizing that you can still benefit from a third-party perspective guiding you. That's super amazing. The study that she referenced is called Meal Skipping and Shorter Meal Intervals Are Associated with Increased Risk of All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality among US Adults. It was published August 10, 2022 in the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. 

It was a prospective study. It looked, in retrospect, at a lot of people, a total of 24,011 adults who had participated in surveys about food intake and eating behavior using 24-hour recall from 1999 to 2014. What it did was it looked at a lot of things, but one of the main things that looked at and why everybody is talking about this is it looked at the role of meal frequency and how it related to cardiovascular disease and mortality and they separated it into different options. There were people that skipped breakfast, people that skipped lunch and people that skipped dinner. They found that people who skipped breakfast had a higher cause for CBD mortality compared to those who didn't. People who skipped lunch and people who skipped dinner had a higher cause for all-cause mortality.

So, of course, it has a really scary headline, which is annoying and we can break this down. I mean, the headline makes it look like it is literally the meal skipping and the shorter meal intervals, because they also looked at how often people were eating, and they looked at that association. In the title, of course, they say that is leading to an increased risk of these diseases and death. But what did it actually find. So, what's interesting is it was looking at a lot of characteristics of people. So, it wasn't just the meal intake. The people who did not eat three meals per day, because the majority of the people so over half of the people were eating three meals per day. The people who weren't, so their general characteristics, they were more likely-- so it's a list. They're more likely to be younger men, non-Hispanic black, less education, lower family income, smokers, heavy alcohol drinkers, higher physical activity, lower total energy intake, lower diet quality, food insecure, and they snacked more. So, what's really interesting about this is [laughs] basically there was a lot of confounding factors happening in these people who were skipping meals. It's really really hard to say that it was the meal skipping that was the cause of this, when there were so many other things going on, unhealthy related habits that seemed to associate with it. 

Also, of interest of note, and I would actually be really curious, I would be super curious if this got redone now, if it would be different, because this occurred, like I said, from 1999 to 2014. Intermittent fasting has, I feel like, really become more popular probably in the last decade. Kind of near the end of the study is when intermittent fasting started becoming more popular. During the time of the study was definitely the time when we were all told that breakfast is the most healthy meal of the day. A lot of people who are skipping breakfast, especially during this time, might have had other unhealthy habits or on the flipside, people who are eating breakfast might more likely have had healthy habits. It's hard to associate causation from correlation is my point.

So, yes, the takeaway is that this was not cause and effect. This did not look at people's blood sugar levels. It did not look at an individual fasting and see what was happening in their body. It literally just looked at thousands of people what are they doing, how are they eating, and then what was their cardiovascular risk and their mortality risk. 

One last note about it, dietary recall studies can be a little bit problematic. I even heard Peter Attia say on an episode that he doesn't even ever consider dietary recall studies because we're just so bad with recalling. So, for example, in this study, from the original group of people, they removed 3136 participants due to implausible total energy intake. Meaning what those people reported didn't make sense realistically. There was really probably no way they were actually eating that. If there were 3136 people that were clearly overwhelmingly wrong in what they were saying, it makes you curious about the people that were included. So, yes, takeaways, dietary recall study issues, the timing of when this occurred during a time when fasting was not seen as a healthy practice, and then the confounding factors, I think, is huge and then lack of actual cause, and effect causation versus correlation. 

Not to say that there's not valuable information here, but those are my thoughts on this study. Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I agree with everything that you've said. I think this is the challenge with nutritional research on a lot of levels. Patients oftentimes do not want to fully disclose what they're eating. It's not to suggest that's per se not kind of human nature, but more often than not, I know when I ask for diet recalls, sometimes I fervently believe that people tell me what they think I want to see or want to hear. Nutritional research in and of itself is challenging.

Number two, I do think that there are many issues with looking at research over a long period of time. As you very appropriately mentioned, we didn't know the insulin sensitivity of these individuals. It's my understanding from the study that it was a fairly unhealthy population that they were looking at and so, does it mean that there's more research that can be done? Absolutely.

As you appropriately stated, correlation does not mean causation and so that's why it's important. Really this is one of the challenges I have with the media is that they don't know how to properly interpret research and what they do is they like sensationalization and so, they'll throw out these articles. There's one in the New York Post that I got tagged in all over social media and people were saying, “Oh well, this is going to hasten your morbidity and mortality.” And I was like, "Hey, time out. Let's look at who sponsored the study, let's look at the data, let's look at the high quality of research.” 

We know that randomized controlled trials are the gold standard and obviously that's not what we're looking at here in this instance. I think it just really speaks to the fact we need more information, we need more research to look at this, but epidemiologic research in general looking at different types of research, nutritional research can be particularly challenging on a lot of different levels. I think it just remains to be seen. If we're looking at an already unhealthy population, it's very hard to extrapolate and then say this is applicable to everyone. Hopefully that's clear.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For example, what I would love for them to have done, which they could have done, I don't know, it's a little bit annoying. They could have separated it out because I mentioned all of those factors about people who were not eating three meals per day what they were more likely to be. I would be super curious if they separated out the people who were skipping a meal by any one of those confounding factors to see if there's a difference. Maybe since its food related, they could have done it by the food stuff. They could have split it by lower diet quality and food insecurity and seen if you separate it that way, do you still see that pattern. You could filter the data a lot of different ways and I bet you would have seen a lot of different things. So, it is what it is. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's just the beginning point to really look at things. The other piece is that probably our listeners and ourselves, we don't eat a Standard American Diet and we recognize now how inflammatory and problematic the Standard American Diet is because it's highly processed, hyper palatable, too many carbohydrates, too many wrong types of fats, too little protein, and that doesn't help metabolic health at all. There're so many different things that usually when I'm looking at these kinds of articles, I always want to know like, what were they eating because I think that has a large impact on the results that they are reporting. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was interesting. I was actually thinking about that when I was reading the article because for diet quality, they actually broke down how they determined that, but they didn't give specifics. It was basically like-- It was like a dozen categories of components of food like fruits, vegetables, fatty acids. It was like a dozen of them, salt, sodium. Even within that, there's so much debate about diet. So, I find it interesting that even ranking things by diet quality, I mean, there would be nuance and debate within that. One other little note I did want to point out, I looked at the original post that she referenced on Instagram. I thought this was interesting. Do you know the @fastingmd, she follows you? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I do. I think she's a fan of circadian fasting. That's kind of her cornerstone. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, okay, got you. So, I don't know if she did this on purpose. I'll just assume she did not. It was a good moment that I thought was a good thing to draw attention to because this goes back to like really encouraging listeners to look at the source material, especially with things like this, where it gets into social media and the news. This is a very small thing, but I still think it's telling of what is happening all the time. So, for example, she mentioned what I mentioned about how the participants who are skipping meals were more likely to be all of these other factors which are mostly unfavorable in that they are associated with lesser health outcomes.

She listed the entire list, but she left out one which was the positive one. She left out higher physical activity and so it could have been an accident. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but I think it's a really good example, because I read it and I was like, wait, but higher physical activity was also one of the things on there. I think it's a good example of even when somebody says, even me right now saying, “What's in the study,” go read the original study. Because I think every time you hear not from the actual source material, you're getting a filtered biased version of it from me, from everybody, even from you. When you read it, you're going to give it your own filter and bias. The most unbiased version you can get is probably reading the original one. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important. I mean, we're realistic, I may not be able to read every single piece of research that's out there, but certainly the ones that are intriguing and really relevant. Looking at the sample size, I mean, just looking at basic tenets of the research that was done, I think can be very helpful. I have to believe if @fastingmd is anything like my team, sometimes they're so quick to get content up but sometimes things get missed. So maybe that was unintentional. But I know that Amy's, it's Amy Shah. I know that her content tends to be surrounded around honoring circadian biology as it relates to fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah. Again, it probably was unintentional, but it was completely separate from her. It was a moment where I realized again how important it is to go look at the original stuff if you have the time and energy and it's something that you are interested in. 

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Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: We have two questions that are sort of related, so I thought we could answer both of them. So, the first one comes from Kimla. The subject is “One meal a day: Does it matter.” And Kimla says, "I hear a lot of disagreement about what really defines one meal a day." Cynthia, I'm just laughing because I think I mentioned before you know we've had, like, the great one meal a day debate on this show, like Gin and I have debated the definition of one meal a day at length, it became a whole thing. What really defines one meal a day? [chuckles] I wonder why so many people debate this. Is it just a label that people want to place on their fasting pattern?

According to Gin, I adhere to one meal a day, but if I use Melanie's definition, then it would only be sometimes. What I do know is that I typically fast for 21 hours. My eating window varies daily based on how hungry I am. Sometimes I have a five-hour window and sometimes two hours. I do use an app called LIFE on Android to track my fasting time since I've only been doing IF since June, and I always forget what time I quit eating the night before. I think I've gotten offtrack of what my question was now, basically, does it really matter if you truly eat one meal a day or is the fasting window the focus? When I start reading a lot about one meal a day or listening to all the debates over one meal a day and by the way, she's calling it OMAD. 

She says, “I start to get a little obsessed about how much I should or should not be eating during my window, and if I can have a snack or need to cluster all my food. I have noticed this tendency. So, instead I really just tried to pay attention only to how I'm feeling. This has been working great so far. I eat ice cream most nights after dinner which makes me so happy. IF is a keeper in my book. Thank you for all the information. The podcasts and resources have been great tools and I love this way of life. I have never lost weight so effortlessly, no special foods, no containers. I don't have to pack and drag food all over with me, I never feel hungry, and my crazy sugar cravings have disappeared. Thank you for clarifying this concept.”

We have another question from Nancy. The subject is “One meal a day?” and Nancy says, “I'm a new IFer and I've been doing a 16:8 fast. I read here a lot about having one meal a day during that eight-hour feeding window, which seems to contradict other things. I read or hear about eating all of one's calories within that eight-hour feeding window. I basically don't understand what it means to eat one meal within that eight-hour window. Does it mean that you can eat one meal, say at 12:30 PM, a big lunch or 07:30 PM, a big dinner and snack for the rest of your feeding window? If you do only one meal, what is the benefit of that versus spreading out your eating window within your eight-hour window? I like to have a lunch at 12:30 and a dinner at about 7:30. Is there a reason I shouldn't do that? Thanks.”

Before you jump in, Cynthia. I'll give you some recap of Gin and I's thoughts on this and what the great debate was, which in the show notes. The show notes will be at ifppodcast.com/episode298. We will put a link to the great debate, the great one meal a day debate episode that I have with Gin. It's ironic or it's interesting because Gin and I typically eat over the same amount of hours-ish, so it's typically like probably an average of a five-hour eating window, probably four to six hours. The difference is that Gin has a pattern where she has a snack and then she doesn't eat and then she eats her meal later, whereas I eat the entire time straight through [laughs] like the entire four or five hours. It's a very long drawn out pattern. Listeners probably already have it memorized. Like I eat my cucumbers and I drink my wine and then I'm cooking my food and then I eat my food, which is like my scallops, my protein, and then I eat a lot of fruit for quite a while.

Our big debate was I was saying for Gin, I was like, “Yours is like one meal a day and a snack because you're having a snack and then you're not eating and then you're eating.” I was like saying for mine that, “It's one meal because it's like being at a really long dinner where I'm constantly eating.”

Kimla's question about why does it matter, I really don't think it does. [laughs] It's more just the semantics of it. Although, that said for Nancy, I don't really know anybody who would consider like an eight-hour eating window at one meal a day. That's pretty long. So, I can share more thoughts. But Cynthia, what are your thoughts on the semantics of one meal a day? Does it matter? What do you call it? All the things. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, goodness, I feel like I'm stepping into a landmine. So, Kimla and Nancy, thank you for your questions. First and foremost, I think it's important to, if you're metabolically healthy, to intuitively eat. So, when Kimla asks about some days when she has one meal versus other days she eats more than one meal, I think there's nothing wrong with that. In my estimation, one meal a day is exactly that one meal a day. When I think about Melanie's methodology and how she chooses to have like a wider feeding window, a wider eating window, I guess that's maybe the way to call it. I kind of differentiate that. I mean that to me is different. I think we can get caught up in semantics. I would say the same thing about when people ask, does this break my fast. We get nuanced and granular and everyone's stressing. I'm like, really what we should be focused on is determining how many meals do we need in our feeding window to get our protein in that's the first thing. I think that's very important for some people. If you're a unicorn and you can eat a huge meal and have 100 g of protein, more power to you. I'm not that person. I divide my food, my meals into at least two, if not three meals to get my protein in. 

Number two is I think it's important to vary what we do. I think most of us need to do that now. Do we have unicorns? Absolutely. That's a loving word when I say unicorn each one of us are individuals, each one of us needs something a little bit different based on our own needs or personal professional needs. And that's totally okay. Women that are still getting a menstrual cycle really should fast for their cycle. Women that are in perimenopause and menopause need to be careful about over fasting. I'm starting to see a lot of this women that are irrespective of life stage, but they are having very rigid rules about when they eat, how much they eat, a rigid fixation. 

I do think just one meal a day is a problem. I think it's fine every once in a while. Let me be clear what Melanie is defining as what works for her, she's getting plenty of protein in that feeding window. If you're just having one meal that has 30 g of protein, you are chronically undereating and that is something I get concerned about. There's zero judgment. Each one of us has to decide what works for our bodies. But if you're chronically undereating and you're chronically undereating protein in particular, and you are a woman north of 35 or 40, you are putting yourself at risk for metabolic inflexibility. That's what I want to just state. I recognize not everyone may like that opinion, but I do feel that it's important to at least interject. Can you get your protein in in your feeding window? Do I have one meal a day when I'm been traveling or maybe I went on vacation and I ate too much? Sure. But do I do that every day? No, but do we need to split hairs about OMAD? OMAD to me is one meal in a feeding window. It is not like a wider feeding window, like what Melanie does. To me, I don't think of that as OMAD. I just think Melanie has a gradual feeding window. How’s that? Is that a good way of describing it? 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. So, I guess, well first of all, super glad that you drew attention to, I think, the crux of the issue with the one meal day of getting in the protein intake. So, yes, that's definitely the major focus there. I guess the reason I feel, I feel like I'm having flashbacks to me and Gin talking, the reason I feel like mine is still one meal a day is, it's like being at a restaurant. It's literally a one meal situation. I start my eating. I'm like having the meal, it just happens to take, because I eat so much volume wise, this is all like whole foods, so it's all pounds of meat, pounds of cucumbers, pounds of blueberries, so it takes a long time to eat all of that. I like to eat slowly, so it's like eating one long slow meal. If you went to a restaurant and it was like a four-hour dinner type thing. 

That's why I feel like it's one meal because it's not like I'm having a snack and then not eating and then having a snack and then not eating, and then eating. It's like mealtime. If listeners are curious what I'm doing, I know people say that you should eat and just eat and focus on just eating, but I'm always reading two books at any one time, so I'm listening to one on Audible during the day to prep for the Melania Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'm always listening to one during the day and then at night is when I read. I'm reading during those four hours and taking notes. That's why I feel like it's a meal situation. It really doesn't matter. It's semantics.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I love that you have this whole process of creating digestive fire. You're starting kind of slowly and then building up to this crescendo and then it comes back down. For me, it's two boluses of food. I do know there are a lot of people out there that have differing interpretations of OMAD. It's not that one is right and one is wrong. I think that to me it makes sense to say OMAD is one meal, one food bolus. If you have two meals in your feeding window, great, but I don't think it should be a source of stress. Like ultimately eating less often should not be causing you more stress like really and truly. We have enough stress in our lives. We don't need to add more stress stressing about definitions of things. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I would comment that like an eight-hour eating window, like what Nancy is doing. I don't see how that would really be one meal. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Right, right. It really should be two. I mean, I'll give you a prime example. I traveled yesterday, I traveled this morning to come back from New York, and today is a much wider, fasting window because I literally have not been able to stop and eat. So, when I'm done with this podcast, I will go eat and I'll probably divide my protein into two portions because I'll probably eat a little bit and then a little bit more before I would close my feeding window just to make sure I get enough protein in.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Yeah. That also goes back to knowing yourself and the unicorn comment and things like that. I do so well with just a massive, massive bolus of protein all at once. For a lot of people, I understand they can't handle that like they would need to separate it. So really, it's about knowing yourself. You commented on this. That's what I really love about Kimla's observation. She seems to be very intuitive with how she feels. So, yes. I think not getting lost in the semantics and like Cynthia said, stressing about the definitions and all of that. There's really no need to just focus on what you need to get out of your eating window.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important because one of the things that I get the sense of is that there's anxiety around rules and there's anxiety around lifestyle changes. And that's definitely not what we want. We don't want to create more anxiety. We actually want fasting or digestive rest, like you do 12 hours of digestive rest. Like, it really should not be an added stress to your life. For those of you that are newbies, certainly lean in. There're so many great podcasts, like, over the last several years that Gin and Melanie did, and Melanie and I have been doing since May. And there's so much great information. Our books are great sources of information as well. Don't let it be a stressor. Just the concept of intuitive eating, intuitive fasting may not be accessible for everyone right now, but that's what we hope you get to a point where you can really lean into what makes your body feel good. 

You're an N of 1. This experimentation that goes on in terms of lifestyle changes. I know that the most I can eat in terms of a protein bolus is about 60 g. That's a good amount of protein for me in one meal. If I do 75, I'm probably going to be uncomfortable. So, 60 g is what I've been able to work up to but that didn't start right away. That was something I worked up to. We know most women are eating probably 40, maybe 50 g of protein a day. Most of us are not eating enough. Just be consistently working towards goals and that's the best that we should be able to do, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I could not agree more. I find it so interesting, too. If I just ate, like, 40 g like you were saying, I would be starving, starving. Every time I go out to dinner, I get an entree, now it's my dessert, another round of meat. So good. So, so good. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that. It's funny Ben Azadi, who I know that you have recently recorded with, Ben, gets two dinners. And so, my husband the first time--

Melanie Avalon: Well, he does two. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Ben is, like, very tall and very lean. We were in Utah together, my husband and I, and his fiancée and Ben, and we're having dinner. And his fiancée, Natassia was like, “Watch.” And Ben's like, “I'll have two dinners.” And they were like, “What?” He was like, “Oh, yeah, we'll have two dinners.” And my husband and I were like, “What's wrong with that?" [unintelligible [00:55:49] one good-sized meal. 

Melanie Avalon: Does he have them at the same time or does he get them back to back? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, at the same time. 

Melanie Avalon: Like I did on my birthday dinner. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hmm-mm. And he ate it all. We were like, he's like a teenage boy, he has that capacity. I was like that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: I will get two entrees, or I will get an entree and then for dessert when everybody gets their dessert, I get another entrée. And I will say, so a little tip for listeners if anybody else wants to do this, I don't know if anybody else wants to do this. But especially if you're like keto or low carb, which I'm actually not, ironically enough, but it can be really fun to get an appetizer, like another round of sashimi or another steak for dessert. Let the kitchen know. If you're there late, they'll often shut down the entree part of the kitchen early. If you do want that for dessert, you need to let them know earlier on that you're going to be ordering that. Just a little tip for the one other person that wants to do this already.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's a good tip.

Melanie Avalon: They've cut it close sometimes because I've waited too long to tell them.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] You also eat late at night, so they're probably like, “We're done.” Melanie's like, “No, I need more food.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you get an appetizer for dessert like the tartar, the carpaccio that comes from one part of the kitchen that might have shut down, and if you get an entree for dessert that comes from another part of the kitchen that might have shut down, the appetizer part of the kitchen is actually more likely to have shut down, I think. Now, I was thinking back to my serving days. That might not actually be true because oftentimes the dessert station is the same person as the appetizer station. In any case, the point is, ask your waiter or let them know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: Should we answer one more question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Our next question is from Spencer. Subject is “Breaking fast.” “Is there a proper way to break a fast? I feel like I want some items that are still a little unhealthy and seem to not really be losing weight on the scale. Maybe I need to also throw mine away but it got me thinking.” I'm assuming he's talking about the scale. “I keep hearing about there being a proper way to break a fast. Any thoughts on what I should be eating when I break my fast to provide me with the best results? I'm currently listening to the podcast and maybe haven't seen this question yet. Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Spencer, thank you so much for your question. It's interesting because we have talked about this question on the show, seeing as how many episodes we've had, probably multiple times. But I think there's a unique spin we can give on answering at this time because normally when we have answered this question, I think it's been more in the context of how to ease your digestion, how to help heal leaky gut. Opening with things like bone broth and with gentle things you can digest. I don't know that I've given the perspective before of how to break your fast with specifically weight loss being the goal. And so, something that occurred to me is that and this is very individual, I think knowing how your body responds with insulin, you don't have to actually know the insulin number, but your perception of responding with blood sugar swings or not to different foods can be very helpful in the ordering of your food.

Because, for example, I mentioned before my order, my crazy order, oh, I'm so happy that we're answering this in here because this works so well together. The reason I do that order is very specific. It's what provides me well, hey, I can digest it well, but it provides me the most-- I always wonder, is it satiety or sha-city? I say satiety, right? But can it be both? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I say satiety, and I can assure you that after doing the audiobook for my book, the producer made sure that every word was enunciated and properly, I mean, everything. Yes, you say it correctly.

Melanie Avalon: Great. I have the most satiety with my personal pancreas and my personal insulin and my personal blood sugar regulation. When I open with the wine and cucumbers, like, that doesn't make me ravenous, it doesn't make me have blood sugar drops. Then I eat the massive amount of protein, which I find very satiating. The reason I actually eat a ton of fruit at the end is because I have found that mitigates what I either perceived as reactive hypoglycemia when I was doing low carb or might not have actually been reactive hypoglycemia. It might have been, we talked about it before, there's a name for it. I think it's like, idio--. It's basically feeling like reactive hyperglycemia, but it's actually not. You actually have normal blood sugar levels, but you feel like your blood sugar is dropping. When I was doing low carb and eating a mass amount of protein, I would be really satiated, and then I would go to bed, and then I would wake up starving. 

I think it was from my blood sugar probably dropping from the high protein intake. I do that pattern because it allows me to feel full, feel nourished and I don't get swings later. So, I think knowing yourself and experimenting to find what can you open your window with that will for you keep you full and satisfied, can be very helpful. For a lot of people, if they were to open with a simple carb-type situation, they might get a massive blood sugar swing that might make them ravenously hungry and make them overeat, even things like alcohol. Some people, the timing of the alcohol, depending on where it is, depending on their own alcohol metabolism, might make them eat more or less. Depending on that, the timing of if you're eating fat or not could make a difference. Basically, I would focus Spencer on finding the way that opens up the fasts that provides you with the most satiety.

Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I am a fan of leading with protein into opening up your feeding window. Sorry, that would be my dog groaning underneath my feet, in case anyone's wondering. I think leaning into protein is important both for blood sugar support and also for satiety. For me, it's either protein and non-starchy carbohydrates, or it's protein and healthy fats, and that's typically how I break my fast. I just think protein is a really important macronutrient and one that I spend a lot of time talking about. I spend a lot of time discussing examples of protein and non-starchy vegetables. It could be chicken, it could be bison, it could beef. You could have arugula or spinach, or you could have broccoli or cauliflower versus sometimes when I sit down to have a protein and fat meal, it might be a piece of salmon, fattier cut of meat.

Those are the things I kind of lean into because it fulfills my needs in terms of getting my macronutrients in, but it also leaves me satiated. I can always tell if I haven't gotten those macronutrients right, because I will then be looking for more food when I'm done. But I think some degree of experimentation to find out what works well for you. I have some patients that want to break their fast with bone broth, others that want to take a light salad, like what Melanie does, where she has her cucumbers and her wine, and then she leans into the protein piece. I would do some degree of experimentation to find out what works best for you, but the protein is one that I always try to emphasize for most people.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like @ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. That is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. Super excited for our upcoming recordings together and I look forward to getting feedback from listeners.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, and because of when this comes out Happy New Year to you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Happy 2023, hard to believe.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's crazy. I'm excited for it, though. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Me too. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, I'll talk to you later.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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