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Aug 08

Episode 225: Hormonal Hunger, Metabolic Flexibility, Pro-Metabolic Eating, Cortisol, Breastfeeding, Hunger In The Window, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 225 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

NSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Somavedic: The Science of EMF Protection, Cell Phone Radation Effects, Preventing Cellular Damage, Increasing Heart Rate Variability, Cardiovascular Health, Structured Water, And More!

Go to melanieavalon.com/somavedic and use the coupon code Melanie10 to save 10% off your very own Somavedic!

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast100 And Use Code IFPODCAST100 To Get $100 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Zoe - Stalling and Feeling Hungry

Listener Q&A: Kelsey - Metabolic flexibility, pro-metabolic eating and cortisol

Listener Q&A: Alyssa - Having a "bouncy" eating window

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 225 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing your when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. When you do what you love, like running, racing, enjoying the great outdoors, or if you're me, scrapbooking, podcasting and wine tasting, you want to do it for life. InsideTracker can help. InsideTracker was founded in 2009 by leading scientists in aging genetics and biometrics. In fact, David Sinclair partnered with them, who I've had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast and has been one of my favorite guests of all time. Using a patented algorithm, InsideTracker analyzes your body's data to provide you with a clear picture of what's going on inside you. Then, they offer science backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes. Then, InsideTracker tracks your progress every day, every step of the way toward reaching your performance goals and living a longer, healthier life. I'm obsessed with what I have learned from InsideTracker. You test your blood by ideal rather than conventional ranges, you can keep all of your blood work in one place, and you can see trends and graphs over time. It has been so eye opening for me. You can also find out your true biological inner age, basically, how old is your body actually, not chronologically. And InsideTracker makes recommendations to help you lower that. It is so incredible, and I am so honored to partner with them. I even partnered with InsideTracker and Dave Asprey’s recent virtual biohacking conference.

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

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And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 225 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I’m here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fantastic, and I'm so excited that I can finally announce who wrote the foreword for Clean(ish).

Melanie Avalon: And who is that?

Gin Stephens: It's somebody that listeners know that I'm a huge fan of, Dr. Tim Spector of Zoe, and all the twin research, and all the microbiome research. He is somebody I really, really respect and admire. I sent him a draft of Clean(ish), and I was so afraid that he was going to reply like, "This book is garbage. I can't put my name on this book." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: We knew he wouldn't say that.

Gin Stephens: He didn't say that. He didn't say that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Did he say anything, yet?

Gin Stephens: Well, the foreword had some more words in it about the book. It made me super excited and happy.

Melanie Avalon: I actually completely unrelated to that update from you started listening to his book, Spoon-Fed, yesterday.

Gin Stephens: Because he's coming on your show, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: He's great. His book, the one before Spoon-Fed, The Diet Myth came out in, I don't know, maybe, it was 2015. It was either 2015 or 2016, because it was early in my weight loss journey, I'd already lost the weight, I'm pretty sure, but that's why I think it might have been 2015 when I just barely gotten to goal. But it really blew my mind. I think I read it before I read The Obesity Code. Although it could be 2016, so, I'm not 100% sure, but the stuff he talked about, food and how we're different, that was really probably the first time I ever had that concept really presented to me. Because all the diet books we ever read said, this is how you do it, and this is why. It didn't ever talk about how we were different.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I actually read the diet-- is it The Diet Myth?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's called The Diet Myth.

Melanie Avalon: I was trying to decide which one to read. Did you read Spoon-Fed?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yes, I pre-ordered it. I'm [laughs] one of those people that I'm such a fan. I'm a pre-orderer when it comes to anything he writes. Yeah, there's some overlap. It's really a different style. I don't know. I really enjoyed reading The Diet Myth, also. I might have enjoyed reading that one more, but it also might be because I read it first, and it was a long time ago, so it was new to me. When you're reading something that's new to you, it's like a page turner. [giggles] Because I'm like, “What?” Turning the pages, "No way." You're turning the pages. Then, when I read Spoon-Fed, I'm like, “Yep, yep, yep. Yep.”

Here's something that is so funny. He and I both tell the same story. He tells it in Spoon-Fed, I told it in Fast. Feast. Repeat about this study about these cheese sandwiches. We both analyzed the same study. But I had already turned in Fast. Feast. Repeat before Spoon-Fed came out. I was already in this house. We were long into the process of Fast. Feast. Repeat. But I'm like, “Oh, my goodness, we're telling the same research story.” Anyway, that was cool.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: It really is. Yeah. But I also was really glad that I had already gotten mine turned in, and that it was because I was like, “There you go. It's going to sound like I copied him.” But I didn't. It was this research study we used, when you're talking about the same study.

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.

Gin Stephens: But it was such a good study, because it was about these different cheese sandwiches, and the point is that the less processed cheese sandwiches, the body managed them better than the ones that were more ultra-processed. If you're trying to make that point about ultra-processed versus less processed, that is definitely a study to discuss.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was going to say, I feel I remember that study, it's probably from reading your book.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Yep, because it was in my book. But yeah, I turned my book in July of 2019 I think, and Spoon-Fed came out, I don't know. It was at fall of 2019 or spring of 2020. It came out before Fast. Feast. Repeat was officially out I think, but I think it did. Maybe, it was after. Anyway, on the timeline, I was well done. You know how it is with books. I'm completely done with Clean(ish). It's still not coming out till January.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. I've been seeing the way the pages look like, they're designing the pages, and the books going to be 400 pages long.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: I do. I was like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: Hardback or paperback or--?

Gin Stephens: It's paperback. I tried so hard to get them to do hardback, but it has to do with getting stores to stock it. It's a harder sell, I think, to get stores to stock a hardback.

Melanie Avalon: Do you think they'll ever do a hardback a Fast. Feast. Repeat?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually very surprised they haven't, with it being a New York Times bestseller.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and sticking up there in the weight loss category as far as like we know ranking. The other day, I looked, it was number one, and it's still sticking up there. it's really exciting. Oh, I'm starting on Instagram to see people tagging me in Italian, which means people are reading the Italian version, and that is so exciting.

Melanie Avalon: That's really fun.

Gin Stephens: I know. And the Spanish version, too. The Chinese version is coming out at some point. I don't know when.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: I know. Isn't that exciting? Someone joined the Delay, Don't Deny social network this week, and she was talking about how she lives in China. She's an expat. She's an American, but she lives in China, and she was talking about how no one there really knows about intermittent fasting. I'm like, “Hopefully, that'll change eventually, when my book comes out.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's interesting.

Gin Stephens: It is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I never really thought about it in Asia.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, we’ll see. It's just so exciting to see it happening, and unfolding, and feeling like even though we're over a year after it came out in English, it's still very early in the days of the book, and it's just exciting that it's continuing to do well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I'm excited. I think Clean(ish) will be here, and then could be a whole another thing.

Gin Stephens: I know. I really am proud of Clean(ish), because I think it's stuff we all have in our minds, but when you put it all together-- I just was constantly while I was researching for that book like, “Oh, my gosh. I knew that, but now, I really know that.” Really, how important it is. You already know how important it is, but why it's more important now than it was even 10 years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What was I reading? I was reading something yesterday. It might have been Tim Spector’s book. I don't know. I was just reflecting on how overwhelmingly obvious it is when you look at the literature about what these toxic things in our environment are doing to us, and how little it's appreciated, just in general. It's very appreciated in the biohacking world and in a niche area, but not beyond that.

Gin Stephens: But I don't think it's really yet. Exactly. It's like we're probably preaching to the choir here with our audience.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It just seems so obvious.

Gin Stephens: But I want to get beyond just my audience with this book, and introduce new people to the ideas. I tell a story the first time my eyes were really open to chemicals and how they affect us, which was when Will was little. Have I talked about this before with you? Chemical sensitivities, and foods sensitivities?

Melanie Avalon: I think you have about his food. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and so I tell that story in the introduction for Clean(ish). It made such a difference cleaning up Will's diet. But I didn't clean up mine at the same time, because I didn't need to. I wasn't having the problems. He was the canary in the coalmine. Looping back to that time, I missed an opportunity to make a change for the whole family, and then, once he “outgrew" it. We all went back to eating how we had been including him. It's mind boggling. If I really, really knew what I know now, but of course, I didn't. But you start connecting things, it's all so connected. Of course, Tim Spector’s introduction talks about how all of these things affect the gut microbiome negatively, because that's his area of expertise. We don't just want to feed the gut microbiome well by choosing foods that nourish it, nourish those little gut guys, but we also don't want to put in things that harm the gut microbiome. It's really there's so much to it.

When you start realizing all of it, you're like, “Okay, now it matters.” I did not-- I was really in a run, we're in a rush the other day, I'd been out with family, it was late, and I've made no secret that I love a good McDonald's cheeseburger from time to time, and I was running late, and I hadn't eaten, and I didn't have anything at home to eat, because of the beach schedule. Anyway, I was like, “I could just drop through and get double cheeseburger, and it would be so delicious, and the fries and I would love that.” I'm like, “Yeah, but I just don't really want to put that in my body right now.” I'm like, “Oh, my God. I think that's the first time I've ever had thought.” You know but I was like, had time and wanted to, and it wouldn't hurt anything. It wouldn't have affected my weight, because first so long, it was all just about did this affect my weight?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can say this completely honestly. I am grateful. If I eat that type of food now, I will feel sick. I'm grateful for that. It doesn't bother me, because I'm really happy eating the food that doesn't make me feel sick.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I wouldn't feel sick from eating it probably. Although if I go to a restaurant that has really bad cooking oil and eat a plate of fries, I might have a stomachache from that, I've never had a stomachache at McDonald's, but also, I don't eat it a lot. Maybe, I would now. There was no guilt attached to eating it. That's the thing. It wasn't like, “Oh, I would be so bad if I ate that.” I was just like, “I really don't want to eat that.” That's the first time. I'm still continuing to evolve with [laughs] what even being cleanish means to me, because being cleanish means I could have a McDonald's cheeseburger and fries if I wanted to, but I legitimately didn't want to. That was the part that was shocking.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Speaking to the guilt part, I definitely, when I started, it was a lot of guilt. I don't think it really is guilt now, because now, I honestly would rather not eat that food, and like I said, I will feel unwell and sick. But that doesn't bother me, because like I said, I don't want to eat it anyway.

Gin Stephens: Right. Well, it was a super surprise that I didn't want to. I came home and had some leftover red beans and rice that I had made [laughs] on my own. Anyway, and I was like, “I'm glad I waited.” Thank goodness for fasting. Hunger is not an emergency. I didn't need to eat on the run. So, I didn't. Anyway, what's up with you? Anything new?

Melanie Avalon: Not that much. Still working on developing the serrapeptase supplement. We're still hashing out the final parts of the contract. I'm learning so much about a creating supplement. So, that's been fun.

Gin Stephens: I bet that is a whole new thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is. Shawn Wells, do you know, Sean?

Gin Stephens: You interviewed him, and then connected us by email?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I did. He's amazing. I'm not developing it with him, but he's really one of the go to supplement people in the biohacking sphere. He's been helping me a lot with just-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: Things you didn't know, you needed to know.

Melanie Avalon: He's like, “You need to ask these questions, and you need to like this needs to be in the contract.” I was like, “Oh.”

Gin Stephens: Really, honestly, it is the things you wouldn't even know that you need to know. It's good to have somebody like him on your side.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm really, really grateful for that. He even connected to me to his attorney to just help look over everything. Yeah, that's been great. Also, I talked about one little thing that I've been using that--

Gin Stephens: No, I'm sorry.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Yes, of course you can.

Gin Stephens: Please talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: Have I told you about my Somavedic?

Gin Stephens: Your what?

Melanie Avalon: Somavedic.

Gin Stephens: No, I don't even know what words you just said.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I've been wanting to talk about on the show, but for weeks now, we've always gotten really long in the intro like we are right now. But I’ll [laughs] make it short.

Gin Stephens: It's all related that. It's all good stuff. Say the word slower.

Melanie Avalon: Somavedic. It's S-O-M-A-V-E-D-I-C. Somavedic. I feel like I did a spelling bee.

Gin Stephens: Is it in a sentence?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, they sent me one, and I was skeptical, like, very skeptical. It's this glass housing thing, and it has precious and semi-precious stones on the inside, and they have different ones, and you plug it in, it lights up, and they say that it creates a field that combats EMF. I don't know. It seems a little like, woo-woo. I was like, “I don't know about this.” I plugged it in. I've been using it. Since using it, my Oura Ring scores have dramatically improved.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's real data. It's supposed to do what?

Melanie Avalon: It combats EMF. They have four studies on their website, and I did a whole blog post, went through their studies, and one of them is published in a scientific journal. The one that's published looks at the effects of cellphone radiation on human cells in the presence or not in the presence of the Somavedic, and basically, when there wasn't the Somavedic, it did all this damage. And when there was the Somavedic, it mitigated the damage by 80%.

Gin Stephens: Wow. It's energy. It's doing something with the energy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Then, they have three other studies, which are not in a published journal, but it's like the data and all of the information, and one is heart rate variability in a dozen patients or so. Almost all of them, their heart rate variability substantially improved. The other one looked at cardiovascular health, and almost all of theirs improved, and then, the fourth one looked at blood sedimentation rates, and it improved. I'm so sold on it. They sent me one, because it is a little bit pricey. They sent me one. I'm so sold, I bought a second one myself, just myself. I'm really obsessed. So, I just wanted to share.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that sounds very interesting. The thing about it is, energy is real. We're made of energy. The world is energy. The fact that things have fields-- we've all seen a magnet work. That's not magic. That's not woo-woo. It's energy. [laughs] It's the attraction of a magnet and the metal. So, it makes sense that things would interact in a way we can't see.

Melanie Avalon: Just my scores on the Oura Ring-- and I really realized it this week, hit me how much it's changed, because I had a night where I stayed out a little bit late, and had a little bit of wine, my Oura Ring scores were not that good. It's like I knew that I'd been up late and had wine, but I’ve realized the scores that were not good were the scores that used to be normal.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow. You're sleeping better.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm sleeping better, my readiness score is better, my heart rate variability is better. If listeners want to learn more, I'm obsessed. I might buy a third one, because they just released one for your car. [laughs] I did a whole blog post. It's very long. It's melanieavalon.com/somavedicscience. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. My discount code is melanieavalon.com/somavedic and the code, MELANIE10, gets you 10% off. I'm obsessed now.

Gin Stephens: Well, that is very cool.

Melanie Avalon: So, that's my update. This was a long intro.

Gin Stephens: It was. But it was all very interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It was. Environment, cleaning things.

Gin Stephens: I think it was interesting. Maybe, everybody's like, “Man, that was so boring,” but I thought [laughs] it was pretty.

Melanie Avalon: I've been talking about it on Instagram, and places, and people keep asking me. So, that's the information.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we actually have two questions from the same listener. She wrote in this original question, and I had it in the prep doc to answer, but then she sent a follow-up saying that it was addressed, but I actually am going to read both, because I think it's nice hearing about how she found the answer to her problem. Oh, wait, oh, one last thing. I just drink some water. The Somavedic, the green one also structures water, and they actually have pictures of that. Here we go. From Zoe, the subject is, "Stalling and feeling hungry."

Zoe says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I'm hoping you both can shed some light on a current issue I have with feeling hungry, or what I think is hunger. I have a large amount of weight to lose over, 100 pounds. I've been doing IF one meal a day since March 2021, and I've lost over 50 pounds since then. It's been easy so far, more than that. The non-scale victories such as being more energized, reduced inflammation, and general wellness have been fantastic. However, I'm recently starting to feel hungry in the day, and have not been able to make it to my usual 20- to 24-hour fast. I'm trying to decide if it's mindset, I can feel my old diet mindset starting to kick in of wanting to eat whenever I want. I've never really felt hungry in the time I've been doing IF so far, which is great. But now suddenly I do.

One thing of note is that it's my time of the month, which could be it, but it seems odd that I've had this sudden change. Is it because my easily available fat has been used up now, and I am now accessing other fat reserves? My eating is varied. I really don't do low carb, keto, low fat, or anything like that. I just focus on whole foods with a few treats thrown in. I'm still enjoying all the non-scale victories, but I'm now eating too much in my window, or eating twice a day, which doesn't result in weight loss for me. I don't mind if I hit a weight plateau for a bit, having lost such a big chunk so far, but what worries me is that I'm going to start gaining weight back, because I can't control my urge to eat.”

Gin Stephens: Before you read her follow-up, can I just jump right in on something?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, was going to ask you, too. [giggles]

Gin Stephens: Oh, good, good. I just wanted to make sure that [laughs] we didn't go on, because had we not gotten the follow-up, I would 100% have zoomed in on the part about her saying it's her time of the month, that hormonal time. Before I went through menopause, even when I was still trying to lose weight, when I was still cycling regularly, I always noticed I was starving, starving, starving, and I'm like, “Why am I so hungry?” It always puzzled me just like it did Zoe here. Every single time. That's what's hilarious.

Every time, I'm like, “What's wrong with me? Why am I so hungry? Why am I eating so much?” Then, the next day, bam, my cycle would start, and I was like, “Well, duh.” But it's every single time, I felt like that. Ladies, don't be like me when I was always so surprised by, “Why am I so hungry? What's happening?” Yes, hormonal hunger is absolutely real. For me, it wasn't something that went on for days and days. It would either be one mainly really hard day when I needed to have more food, and I listened to my body, and I did. Then, eventually, I stopped being puzzled by it. I'm like, “Oh, looking at my calendar, it's probably time.” That is absolutely something to always keep in mind instead of worrying about it. It's totally normal.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I've thought about this as well, because it's thought that the increase in hunger during the second part of your cycle, usually right before your period is because progesterone levels are really high, and they increase metabolism. What's really interesting about it is the studies say that it's really probably only around 300 extra calories that you burn. But I don't think it's even that so much as it's just your metabolism is ramped up. So, regardless of how many actual calories extra you need, it's your metabolism is in a hungry state.

Gin Stephens: It really is. Yeah. It's really hard to fight nature. That's an example of that. You feel guilty perhaps that you ate more than you intended, but it's really hard to fight your body like I said.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm glad she said that, and then, her follow-up was she said, her new subject was "Longer windows/continuous eating." She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I submitted a question about a week ago about hunger. You can ignore it, if you wish, as all the negative symptoms are now gone, and I'm back to no hunger during the fast. I can only put it down to PMT.”

Gin Stephens: Based on her spelling, I think that she might be British, and so that must be PMS. When America would say PMS.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, they call it PMT?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. That just guessing.

Melanie Avalon: I looked it up and it was premenstrual tension. Maybe, they call it that.

Gin Stephens: I think so. She's got a spelling that's a British or Australian spelling. The way she spelled energised with an S instead of a Z. That's not the American spelling. So, I think it's what we call PMS.

Melanie Avalon: Premenstrual tension is what they call it there, I guess. She says, "I can only put it down to PMT, and will be ready for it next time. It won't freak me out."

Gin Stephens: Or it might. It’ll be surprised again like I always was, and then, you're like, “Oh, wait, that was okay.” [laughs] In hindsight, you'll understand it.

Melanie Avalon: I do the same thing with tenderness, like, “Hmm. Why am I so tender every single time? This is odd."

Gin Stephens: I know [laughs] this is funny. I know. I've been a woman for about-- before I went through menopause. It had been-- 51 years, I've been cycling for a large proportion of that, and still it surprised me every time. [laughs] What's this crazy? Oh, yeah. Okay, it's that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Okay. The rest of her question. She says, “I do have another question, though, if you will permit me. I usually have an eating window around 1 PM to 2 PM on a 23:1.” I do this every time, regime? Regimen?

Gin Stephens: Regime. That as regime, regimen has an N on the end of it.

Melanie Avalon: But they can both mean the same thing?

Gin Stephens: Well, I would probably say regimen in this case, instead of regime. Regime is not the right word here. So, why don't you say regimen, because really, regime is not the same word.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it can also be a system or planned way of doing things, especially, one opposed from above. Oh, so, regimen would be like self-done, and regime would be forced upon you.

Gin Stephens: I always think of regime is like an organization.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the first definition, and then, the second one is a system basically from that.

Gin Stephens: I've never used it the second way.

Melanie Avalon: I love learning about words.

Gin Stephens: I've never used it that way. But again, in other parts of the world, they regularly use words differently than we do. I would have said regimen.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I feel regimen is like your plan, and regime would be like, they made to do this regime.

Gin Stephens: I could see that.

Melanie Avalon: So, her would be regimen though, probably.

Gin Stephens: Although maybe that's how it's used, where she lives. It's true. Subtle differences in meanings.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm just going to move on. She says, “This suits me as I can't graze over a long window. When my meal is finished, I'm done. My question is this. When I get invited out or we have people over for dinner, I choose to open my window at the usual time having a slightly smaller meal than I usually would, and eat again in the evening. I don't seem to be able to wait until the evening from the previous lunchtime around 30 hours. I get hungry/expect to eat, not sure which. Is it better to eat my usual smaller meal than have nothing? No cordial, diet soda, fruit, nuts, or anything until the evening meal, or does it make a difference? My window's open, so it doesn't matter if you “rest your system” between lunch and dinner. I'm currently doing the ladder and feel good on it, and I think this is because I'm not spiking insulin over those few hours between meals, or do you think insulin will be high for my lunchtime meal, so, it doesn't actually make a difference? Thoughts please, love all your podcasts.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think a lot of that is very theoretical, and how much does that really matter. What you don't want to do is overeat over a long window period. But we're not all the same. For example, Dr. Bert Herring, who wrote Fast‑5, grazes over his entire five-hour window versus eating once, not eating anymore, and then eating again at the end. I don't want to say this is what you should do. What you should do is the one that feels right to you, and the one that feels good. if you are having a smaller meal at your normal time, then not eating again to later, and then eating then, and that feels really good to you, then do it because it feels good and that's what's working.

I wouldn't really worry about what your insulin is doing in between, whereas if you instead open your window and do a little grazing-- and I feel like if I grazed all the way through there, I wouldn't be hungry for dinner, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the dinner. The way you're doing it, forget about what's happening in the biochemical world of your body, or your hormones, or whatever. What you're doing seems like it just makes a lot of sense because you want to enjoy your dinner later. I absolutely agree that there's no need to force yourself to wait, and not eat, and then wait till dinner. It's fine to have a longer window.

I've talked about it before, you've probably heard me, and I talked about it in Fast. Feast. Repeat. If we have something that's the same day after day all the time like the 23:1 that you normally do, your body is more likely to adapt, if it's exactly the same every day, day in, day out. Having a longer window on those days probably is helpful for your body, revving up that metabolism a little bit. By the way, this is how Chad eats. He eats in the middle of the day for lunch, then he doesn't snack between meals, and then, he eats again later. Versus for me, if my window is open, just I'm going to eat something if I feel like it. If I opened my window with lunch, ate my lunch, maybe mid-afternoon, I'll have a little something or whatever, and then, I do more of the grazing thing.

Melanie Avalon: I'm similar. For me, it's like I'm eating or I'm not eating. [giggles]

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah. Chad, he will say his window is closed. I think I've said this before. It is hilarious. I'm like, “No, it isn't.” If he'll have his lunch, and then, I'll be like, “If you want little bit of this?” He's like, “No, my window’s closed.” He has two windows, and that's not really what you're doing. But okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think what you said is really great. Yeah, basically, because she's asking what's better or doesn't matter. If you're eating at those two different times, even with a gap in between, you're pretty much probably going to stay in the fed state that whole time. So, it's not a matter of trying to get back into the fast and then what Chad thinks he's doing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, he's not doing it on purpose. He just doesn't eat between meals, really. He's not trying to fast twice or whatever.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What's interesting is, I think the question is, what are the two options you're choosing between, because if it's choosing between having an early meal, and a later meal, and the same earlier-later meal with or without eating in between, there's a difference. You're eating more in the second situation. Depending on your goals, I wouldn't write off-- It really depends on your goals, on what you're trying to focus on. But I wouldn't write off the effect. It's not like magically that food in between doesn't mean anything or add any extra food just because it's all within the same window. It is extra food.

Gin Stephens: For me, what would happen would be I would just not be able to eat as much at dinner, I wouldn't be as hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Mm. See, I would be the same amount of hungry probably. For me, it would probably be better to not eat in between. Well, I would be hungry. So, I'd be wanting to eat.

Gin Stephens: I would just eat in between if I was hungry. If I wasn't, I wouldn't. That would be it. It's hard to know. I can't know, if I eat a small meal at lunchtime, and then the middle of the afternoon is rolling around, and I'm hungry again, I'm going to eat even if it's not dinnertime yet. I'm going to eat a little something. I don't like to be hungry. Once I've opened my window, I do not suffer with hunger. I'm not going to-- My windows already open, I'm hungry, I'm going to eat something.

Now, the other day when I told that McDonald's story, it was easy, because I was still in the fasted state. I hadn't opened my window yet. I was like, “I'll just wait. I can wait longer. I'm fine.” But once my windows open, I don't ignore hunger.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, all right. I think we got it.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, I love that. Thank you for the follow-up, Zoe, and everybody, be aware of hormonal hunger.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Kelsey, and the topic is "Metabolic flexibility, pro-metabolic eating, and cortisol." “Hey, Gin and Melanie, I’ve started IF in May of 2020. So, as of writing this email, I'm coming up on one year of this lifestyle. I've had ups and downs, and made tweaks here and there. Your podcast has been a wealth of information and encouragement for me. I'm long winded, so buckle up.

Here's why I'm writing. I'm currently in school to become a nutritional therapy practitioner, NTP, and one of the most common diets/advice in this space right now is called pro-metabolic eating. Have either of you heard of this? The proponents of--” If anybody hears vacuuming, Chad's vacuuming.

Melanie Avalon: I don't hear it.

Gin Stephens: Well, you might hear it in a minute. I think he's vacuuming towards the podcast studio. He likes to vacuum. [laughs] Anyhow, just had to say that. We have a cordless Dyson. I have a big Dyson that you have to plug in, but I think you're about to hear him coming. But then, I got a little one that's cordless, and so, he'll just go grab it, and just start vacuuming, and I’m certainly not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: I crack up every time you [laughs] say that. It’s so funny, how he likes to vacuum.

Gin Stephens: He likes it, but he never has one time pulled out the big one in the whole history, we've been married for 30 years now.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, this is the big one?

Gin Stephens: No. He doesn't use the big one. In 30 years of marriage, he's never pulled out the big one and started vacuuming the house unless something tragic happened, and I was away, and he had-- Anyway, but he pulls out the cordless every single day, and vacuums. You could probably hear it. It's coming towards the rim. Anyway, so sorry. I'm going to come back to the question. Listeners, feel and enjoy the sound of the vacuuming. All right, so, she says, pro-metabolic eating. Have either of you heard of this? The proponents of it claim that to heal the metabolism, we need to eat a balance of carbs, fat, and protein, which I agree with, an emphasis--" and that was her saying which I agree with that was coming from Kelsey. "With an emphasis on the most nutrient dense foods again, I'm in agreement." That's Kelsey again, "where they lose me is that they claim we need to eat every two to three hours to keep the blood glucose balanced and specifically to reduce stress on the body. This, I'm guessing, is because they believe it is damaging for the body to release cortisol in order to create glucose from liver storage of glycogen to raise blood glucose back to stable levels when we go so long between eating. They actually even claimed that the reason most people wait during the night is due to the body's running out of fuel, glucose, and stimulating cortisol production to release glucose. They claim it's that cortisol release which causes the waking. Have either of you heard of this?

Personally, I don't often wake in the night, and I've even been getting better or more restful sleep since a few months into IF. My guess is that it has to do with becoming metabolically flexible and fat adapted. Is it possible that with increased metabolic flexibility, my body isn't producing so much cortisol to regulate my blood glucose during the fast? Because it no longer views my lack of energy in the form of food as an actual energy emergency, since it's adapted to burning fat stores. If you can share any insights or really some actual evidence, I would be so grateful as those in this camp of pro-metabolic eating are highly critical of IF.

Thank you both for the work you do. I've been working my way through your podcast from Episode 2 since last year, and I'm currently coming up on Episode 92. But I listen to the new one every Monday as well. So, if you answer this, I won't miss it. Thanks, again. Much appreciated. Kelsey.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kelsey. Thank you so much for your question. Can I ask you a really random question, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: What is your go-to color for heart emojis? Kelsey used a yellow heart emoji.

Gin Stephens: I use red. The heart is red.

Melanie Avalon: Like the red-red one?

Gin Stephens: Total red.

Melanie Avalon: I just use the red. See, I feel the red-red one is romantic. So, I don't ever use that one, usually.

Gin Stephens: I always use the red one.

Melanie Avalon: I use the pink one with the sparkles.

Gin Stephens: Okay, I'm not pink sparkly at all.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: The vacuum is approaching again. Maybe, something happened out of there. I don’t know. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Kelsey likes yellow hearts. Some people use the blue heart, some people use the green. I always think it's really interesting. I feel you can say tell a lot about a person by--

Gin Stephens: Maybe, we should do some study on that. A psychological study of what does your heart choice say about you. We can just make stuff up, because people do apparently. Somebody shared something in the moderator group about, there's a new intermittent fasting ad. You know how to have all those crazy ones like what your foot length says about what intermittent fasting protocol. There was another crazy one. I can't remember what it was, but it was nutty.

Melanie Avalon: You don't remember, though?

Gin Stephens: I would have to look back, but we were all laughing about it.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I'm trying to remember. I did an informal study in my IF Biohackers group. I wanted to find out. I asked, do people count the eating window or the fasting window? You know that whole thing that we talked about?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I want to find it. It was heavily weighted towards people counting the fasting window.

Gin Stephens: I believe that. But for me, I just got started with Fast-5 with Dr. Bert Herring, and his whole premise was five-hour window. Start eating and close the window within five hours. That's how I was trained to do intermittent fasting. That's how I was raised. I was raised up by Bert Herring. [laughs] I don't think there's any one right or wrong way. But that's just the way I started doing it. But again, that was why Cal made the window app for me, because all the apps that I could find wanted to track the fast. I didn't want to track the fast. So, I believe that maybe more people track the fast. I didn't want to track the fast. I found it.

Melanie Avalon: I said, which do you/would you rather count? The first option was the fasting window, which, i.e., the minimum amount of hours to fast, so that got 236 votes. The second place was eating window, the maximum amount of hours to eat. That got 39 votes.

Gin Stephens: Only 39? Wow, that's shocking.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 39 compared to 236.

GIN Stephens: You see, because for me, I need the structure of the eating window, the timing. because I don't care how long I fast. I could overeat in an eating window that was too long.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I solved that problem by having my eating window go up until my bedtime so it can only be so long. I think I said this last time. I think if I had an earlier eating window, I might have to count both.

Gin Stephens: Close the window.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if it was earlier, I think I would have to count the eating, and then the fast would just naturally be long. Oh, four people said, I track both on two different apps. That sounds complicated. Then, 15 people said I don't track or count.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm now in the I don't tracker account stage. Sometimes out of curiosity, I'll think back, “How long was my window today?” But I still always think in terms of the window.

Melanie Avalon: Of the eating window.

Gin Stephens: Yep, the eating window. I don't say fasting window. I never say that. When I say window, I'm talking about the eating window. But although the other day when I had the longer fasts because I was over at my parents’ house, and I was really busy, and out and about, and then, I went and did some shopping, the only reason I paid attention to that is because it was 24 hours. I was like, “Oh, it's been 24 hours.” I very rarely fast that long.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't track or count it now. I typically don't start eating before a certain time, basically. But I don't like track the hours fasted, but I would feel weird eating before a certain time.

Gin Stephens: Well, Chad and I went out to lunch last Friday. About the time our food came, it was probably 1 PM. So, I started eating at 1 PM. What's always so funny is, even though, I don't say because I'm not at the stage where I'm heavily regimented with what I'm doing, I still will sometimes if I start earlier than normal, just out of curiosity, I think is the word for like how long was my window, and it's rarely over six hours no matter what I do.

Melanie Avalon: Your eating window? Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Rarely over six hours. I'm just like, “All right, I'm done now.” I look and it's 7. I’m like, “Okay. No surprise.” [laughs]

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Melanie Avalon: All right, so back to Kelsey’s question, [laughs] which I almost forgot the question at this point. How do we get off on that? I asked about the heart emojis and then doing track studies, and I did the comment in my group, or the poll. So, Kelsey, yes. I have heard about the pro-metabolic eating thing. To answer the different questions, I do think it is very often the case with a lot of people that the reason they wake up at night is because their blood sugar drops, and then, the cortisol is released to release blood sugar, and then you wake up. The people in the Ray Peat world talk about that a lot. I also think, yes, it's very possible that with her fat burning state that she is now in, or that her body is really good at not relying on wavering blood sugar levels so much, so she's not having this cortisol experience. I think that is very, very likely as well. As far as fasting being in conflict with this pro-metabolic eating thing, it makes sense, because the concept behind this pro-metabolic eating is in order to mitigate these blood sugar swings. The solution is eating constantly.

Gin Stephens: When she said either have you heard of this, I don't know that I've heard that terminology, pro-metabolic eating, as a program, which seems just be a fancy repackaged way of what we were told to eat all the time. Well, we've been told that now for a long time, and how's that working for people?

Melanie Avalon: With the addition of the focus on the food types, like the balance of the macros, and then the nutrient-dense foods.

Gin Stephens: Well, I do agree that nutrient dense foods, that's important. Whether you balance your carbs, fat, and protein that would depend on you personally, and how your body responds to those foods. Not everyone should balance them identically.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: But I don't agree with that.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, I just think that everything she said is quite possible.

Gin Stephens: I think so too. I don't have blood sugar crashes. Like I said, I went 24 hours just on the-- I didn't mean to. It was just because I was somewhere where we weren't eating, and then I ran some errands, and then it was late. I didn't have any blood sugar crashes. My body didn't feel stressed out. I felt perfect. Even thinking, I could eat right now if I wanted to have, that's something I used to love, I didn't even want to. I was like, I can wait till later. I don't think that we're having those crashes and nobody's going nuts. I'd never have felt better with intermittent fasting, and I remember back-- probably all of us can remember back when we tried to do these diet plans where you were eating every two to three hours like a newborn baby, who is trying to grow by the way. [laughs]

The eating every two to three hours is the perfect protocol if you're trying to build a newborn body. That's how babies eat. They wake up and around the clock, they're eating every two to three hours, and they're growing, growing, growing. Now, one thing that is interesting, the whole eat frequently to raise your metabolism is based on the fact that eating does raise the metabolism. But the flaw in the logic is that it doesn't raise it more than the amount of the food you just ate.

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's a percent of the food consumed.

Gin Stephens: Right. I'm just going to make up numbers. I don't count calories, but let's say you ate 400 calories' worth of food. It's not going to raise your metabolism enough that will burn more than 400 calories of food.

Melanie Avalon: The average is around 10% of--

Gin Stephens: Right. It's a flawed-- Yeah, it might raise your metabolism, but it's not going to give you the balance that you're looking for, because you just ate all that food to do it. I hope that made sense the way I explained it.

Melanie Avalon: No, it does. It's really funny how people say it. Yeah, people say that. They say, eat food, burn calories, and raise your metabolism but it's a percent of what you ate. It's not like you burned more calories than you ate.

Gin Stephens: Than you ate. Exactly. You're not coming out on the plus side of that mad math.

Melanie Avalon: If that was the case, [giggles] you could just eat to lose weight. Ironically, I'm just thinking about it, the exception to that might be-- well, the closest that you would come to that would be something like alcohol.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: Because you can actually store alcohol calories, but you burn calories, burning alcohol? In theory, that would be the closest you could come to burning calories from consuming something and burning more than you took in. We do not recommend this approach. This is not a protocol that we recommend. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: The straight vodka diet. No, please do not eat that diet. I would die. Literally die.

Melanie Avalon: Such a headache thinking about that. [laughs] Oh, yeah. All right. Shall we move on?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Now, we have a question from Alyssa. The subject is "Having a bouncy eating window." Bouncy, I like that. She says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. First off, y'all rock. Love the podcast, the banter, all of it. Your opinions and personalities unify and clash in the perfect symphony of information to provide us IF-ers with a well-rounded guide to this IF thing and I appreciate that. Now, to my question. I've been doing IF now since early April. When I started, I was breastfeeding, and only doing short fasts, around 12 to 14 hours, to get used to it since I knew I wanted to jump right into it full blown after I was done. I did do a clean fast jumpstart, even though I had no idea what that was at the time.” Do we want to comment on the breastfeeding, or--?

Gin Stephens: Yes, 100%, I would like to. I would like to just really say, I am 100% firm on my stance when it comes to breastfeeding and intermittent fasting. There's more than one reason. It's especially now in today's modern world after writing Clean(ish). I talk about in Clean(ish), babies are born with chemicals in their cord blood. We've got chemicals stored in our fat cells. In the Breastfeeding and Human Lactation book, it's like a textbook, page 440, so it's not a tiny little textbook. Here's a direct quote. It says, “Rapid weight loss programs should be avoided.” This is during breastfeeding. “Because fat soluble environmental contaminants and toxins stored in body fat are released into the milk when caloric intake is severely restricted.”

Now, let's unpack that a little bit. That means you do not want to have a goal of burning fat while you're breastfeeding. So many people think that the only reason you wouldn't want to breastfeed is if it impacted your milk supply and turns out that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is, we're not in a normal world now. Yeah, we're designed as humans to be able to feed a baby, even if the mom is going through some nutritional hard times, we want to feed that baby, and we're designed to be able to do that, to feed that baby and reproduce. But we're not in those times, because now, we've got all these toxins in our fat cells. So, it's a whole different thing to consider. I would never, never, never, never, never, never, can I say never, recommend anyone do any fasting while they're breastfeeding, and really don't try to lose weight. I know, look, I had two babies, and the first thing I wanted to do was get back to my pre-pregnancy body. But when you understand, yes, our bodies do store fat, I will store toxins in our fat cells, do you want to be passing that on? You really, really don't. I, of course, didn't understand that when I was pregnant. But here, it is, I read it out of a textbook on breastfeeding.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's huge. Somebody actually posted about this the other day in my Facebook group, and I went and looked up the studies and in addition to what you’ve mentioned, there's actually quite a few studies looking at weight loss while breastfeeding and the effect it has on toxins through the breast milk.

Gin Stephens: It's a shame, but this is our modern world. Really, we should be honestly encouraging all new mothers not to try to lose weight at all in any way, all breastfeeding. Consider that baby is still inside you. Of course, it isn't. But it's the fourth trimester when you're breastfeeding, you need to protect what comes out of you into your baby in a way that you probably hadn't thought of before. It's not just, can you give your baby enough milk? It's what else are you giving your baby that you didn't mean to. Because it's stored in your fat cells, and you can't help it. That's the part that shocked me so much when I was writing Clean(ish). No matter how careful you're trying to be. We're getting more stuff just from our environment now, no matter how careful you are. So, it's a little scary.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, glad we could comment on that. [laughs] I know that wasn't what she was intending to ask.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, but it was important. I had that highlighted in yellow, that part, to make sure to go back to you. All right.

Melanie Avalon: Back to her question. She says, "Since my little one has stopped nursing, I have started doing various windows that change pretty frequently. Most days, it will be 16:8, but I have been adding in 18:6 and 20:4 days and here and there as well. I do clean fast and I believe my body is fat adapted. My fasts usually feel great. Though, sometimes, I do get hungry. I typically exercise while fasted, but sometimes life doesn't let that happen, and I end up getting my workout and during my eating window. I definitely feel better doing it fasted though.

My main question is whether or not it is okay to have longer or shorter eating windows and how that can affect your progress, weight loss, but more so body composition changes. To explain it a little better, I will break my fast around 2 on an 18:6 day, then, I won't start fasting again until 10, so my window ends up being longer than six hours. Then, the next day I will fast until 4 to get in a 16:8 day. Essentially, my eating window will vary and sometimes not match up with the fasting day type exactly. Is this okay? Do I need to nail it down a bit more to really see those changes? Thank you for all that both of you do for the IF community and I appreciate your help."

Gin Stephens: Here's something really funny. I see this all the time. Alyssa is trying really hard to make those numbers add up to 24. She said she's doing 18:6. But actually, she didn't. She did 18:8 that day. Breaking her fast around 2 and then eating until 10. She fasted for 18 hours, then she had an 8-hour window. That is not 18:6, that is 18:8. Then, she went from 10 until 4. That wasn't 16 hours. Was it? How long was that?

Melanie Avalon: 10 to 4 would be-- Well six hours to eat.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that is 16. But then she's not eating for eight hours. That's not 16:8. Maybe, she would only do 16:3. Maybe, she did 18:8, then the next day was 16:3. Don't try to make them add up to 24, because a 24 hour a day part of it is while we're sleeping. When we're sleeping, we're spanning two calendar days. It is very, very rare unless you're so regimented that you're using an app and you're always starting and stopping at the same exact time every day. It's very, very rare that it will actually be adding up to 24. Does that make sense? Like mine, it definitely doesn't. I'd never do. Even though I had a six-hour eating window last Friday, I don't know how long I fasted before I open my window. But who knows, it might have been 15 hours. I did 15:6, right? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It would only add up to 24, if you end it right at a 24 cycle every single time.

Gin Stephens: Exactly, exactly. Right. It's very rare unless you're very, very regimented, and you're always like, “I always have been at four, and I always close at seven, and that is what I do,” then you're going to have something like that. The question is, can you be flexible? Yes, yes. Don't try to label it. But don't worry about whether you're doing 18:6, because you didn't. You did 18:8 like I said. That's okay. What I found for me, when I was trying to lose weight, I did have to rein in the length of my eating window. That is why I had to track my eating window length instead of the fast. That's also why it's less confusing to only track one thing. Instead of trying to track them both, pick one thing that works well for you. For me, it was eating window length, because if my eating window went too long, I overate and I wouldn't lose weight. I lost weight with as long as I could keep my eating window five hours or less. I would slow and steady lose weight.

It was when I started extending my eating window beyond five hours that the weight loss would slow down or stop. What do you need to do, what approach is going to be right for you? We can't tell you. It all depends on you. There are people who lose weight with an eight-hour eating window. There are people who don't. Which will be you? You'll have to see. A lot of it just depends on your eating habits. If you're somebody who likes small meals and you have this delicate approach to eating, you could probably have a longer window. I am not that person. I like to eat a hearty meal. I like to eat a lot. I like to feel like there's-- I like to eat. So, that's why I needed a shorter eating window so I could have that sensation of being full like my body enjoys. I'm not someone who eats like a bird. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: It does. It actually really clicked in well with what we were saying earlier about focusing on either-- it gets rid of that whole issue if you focus on one or the other. Although that said, depending on your goals, and what progress you're seeing, and what you're doing, you could still even change up that focus.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I'm a big fan of changing things up. Changing up is great, because it keeps the body from adjusting and adapting to what you're doing. Having a longer window one day and a shorter window the next day, a mild up and down pattern. One hour window one day, seven-hour window the next. That's not technically up-down ADF. But they will give you that mild up and down pattern.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, for her question though, does she need to nail it down to really see those changes? You can just see-- are you seeing the changes?

Gin Stephens: That's what I meant. We don't know. We can't say.

Melanie Avalon: If you are seeing changes, then keep on keeping on. If you're not--

Gin Stephens: Nail it down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, then you can adjust from there.

Gin Stephens: It just always strikes back to me, people really just want to label everything. Everyone wants to put a label on what they're doing. I would like to see us getting more away from having to label it. Someone was asking the other day about one meal a day, and she's like, “well, this and that, and then, it was that one meal a day.” I'm like, “I don't know. It doesn't matter. Don't try to name it. That is my goal for you.” You do intermittent fasting, you open your window, you close your window when you've had enough to eat for the day whenever that is. You know what? Someone was talking in the-- It was on the Delay, Don't Deny social network. She's like, “I don't know what to do. My window is closed. I'm really, really hungry.” I'm like, “Eat some more.” Your body is telling you, you need to eat some more. You should not have to be fighting against hunger that feels bad just because you've decided you were going to do 20:4, and it's been five hours.

Melanie Avalon: Struggling with the hunger in the eating window is different than proceeding to struggle with hunger in the fasting window.

Gin Stephens: Over time as you become fat adapted, the fast really shouldn't be a struggle of hunger. If you're still in your first month to eight weeks, you may struggle with some hunger. But once you're past that, you should be fat adapted. If you're still struggling with really bad hunger, I would examine your fast, make sure you're not having something that's inadvertently breaking it. Maybe, you're someone that can't even do black coffee. There are people like that, that have to do water only, or they get hungry. But there's something that you can work on because you really should not be feeling miserable during the fast if your body is fat adapted.

Sometimes, if people end up, let's just say a 16:8. If someone does 16:8, every day they get really hungry at 16, then they eat and they're never quite getting into the fat burning. You just might need to extend that fast a little bit to feel the metabolic magic.

Melanie Avalon: That can seem ironic probably to some people. If they're always experiencing hunger, and then that the answer might actually be too fast longer. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the reason you're always hungry at 16 is because you've never pushed past it to the point where your body's like, “Oh, there's the energy.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, counterintuitive, but might be the case.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode225. Those show notes will have a complete transcript. So, definitely check that out. You can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. we are @ifpodcast, Gin is @ginstephens, and I am @melanieavalon, and I think that is everything. All right. Anything from you, Gin, before we go tonight.

Gin Stephens: Nay, I think that's it. I really enjoyed it.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I guess I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jun 27

Episode 219: Exercise, Muscle Building, Protein Intake, Electrolytes, Hydration, PCOS, Fertility, Pregnancy, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 219 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free BACON For LIFE!!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free BACON For LIFE!! The Science, Nutrition, And Health Implications Of Conventional Vs. Sustainable, Grass-fed, Pastured, And Wild Meat And Seafood, Featuring My Honest Butcher Box Review!
The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Listener Q&A: Ryan - IF All Or Nothing

Listener Q&A: Mikelle - Not working? (PCOS)

Intermittent Fasting Stories - Episode 34: Cecily Ganheart

Listener Q&A: Kati - Pregnancy

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 219 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get sugar-free, nitrate-free, pastured bacon for life. Yes, free bacon for life. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door.

When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone, that includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency, regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company.

All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished, that's really hard to find. they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet, this is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal. It's so easy, everything ships directly to your door.

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Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer, is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list, and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. Again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 219 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm good. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. For listeners, we're struggling. Gin and I forgot how we--

Gin Stephens: I think either you didn't say or maybe my sound cut out. Because I swear I don't think I heard you say it. I was waiting by sitting here. The likelihood that it's my sound going out is highly likely because my internet is still wacky.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, we struggled recording our intro that we recorded 219 times. [laughs] Good times.

Gin Stephens: It's like when you're so good at driving a car that you forget how to drive the car when you're trying to think about it, it's like, “I don't know how to drive the car. How do you start the car? I don't know.”

Melanie Avalon: Like you're driving and then you randomly for a second overanalyze the lanes or the turn signal or something, and you're like, “Wait.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I will be driving in my car, and Chad will say, “How do you turn on the whatever?” and I'm like, “I had no idea. I just turn it on.”

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. We run so many programs and the part of our brain that just runs it on autopilot. When we think about it, it's a different part of our brain.

Gin Stephens: It's true. Just try to walk and think about every action your body's making. You just can't do it. Even walking across the room.

Melanie Avalon: Stressful.

Gin Stephens: It is. Anything new going on with you?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, yes. Well, more of just updates. I'm continuing to take care of my cucumbers. It's perfect timing, because I'm reading a book called Flowerevolution, it's about flowers, but it is blowing my mind about plants. You know how we were talking last time about the consciousness of plants?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know they've done studies on plants where they put stress detectors on the plants, and then they do things and the plants know, the plants freak out?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I am fascinated by that type of research. Even playing music for plants. Have you heard the studies about what they do to water? Scream at the water and then pour it in the plants, and the plants are, like, “Oh my God, what's happening?” Just because you screamed at the water. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I have to read the original study. She said they did one study where the guy had a plant, it was his plant, and then he went to another state. They did a surprise birthday party for him, and at the moment that they screamed surprise, and he got really scared, the plant spiked.

Gin Stephens: Wow, that's fascinating. It all does sound really crazy until you think about the fact that we are all just energy. Even my chemist husband, who's just Mr. Science mind, he's like, “Yep, that's true. We are all energy,” at our molecular level, and we're mostly space and we're energy. The way our energy is all connected, like quantum physics, it's just way so, so much. There's so much that we're still understanding.

Melanie Avalon: Something that made it seem very clear and not as woo-woo to me, was she compared it to the internet and text messages. We send messages every day through energy, like with text messages.

Gin Stephens: The only reason it's woo-woo is because we don't understand it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what she said. She says that we don't understand the plant language, like we don't understand that energy system. We don't think it's there, we think it's not real.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like when they used to think thunder was God is mad at you. [laughs] They didn't understand scientifically why we were having thunder. When we can't understand it, we think, “Well, that can't be true,” or that has to have a magical source or whatever. Yeah, it is fascinating. It's why you just can't discount things even though it might sound, like you said, woo-woo.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Second update. I am prepping for Valter Longo for the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Remember when we interviewed him, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Now, what if I had said, “No, I don't remember that.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That would be--

Gin Stephens: Crazy? Yeah, no, I do remember.

Melanie Avalon: I'm rereading his book. Is it The Longevity Diet? Yes, The Longevity Diet. There's so many books with the word ‘longevity’ in them. It's interesting to me how much I forgot from that book. Just rereading it now, because I only read it a few years ago, but I feel like I'm reading it for the first time.

Gin Stephens: It was like four years ago, right? Or was it 2018? Was it 2018 that we had?

Melanie Avalon: Probably 2018.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that was three years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to play the guessing game for something from it?

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lordy. Yeah, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I just read this right before we got on the call. I was like, “Oh, this is the perfect guessing game question.” For listeners, Valter Longo is the-- I don't know if he's the director of, but he he's at the Gerontology Longevity Institute at USC, and he is a fasting researcher and he developed the fasting mimicking diet and his company is ProLon. So, he's all about fasting. Oh, and he's in everything. I feel like everything I watch now, I see him. He was in that Goop Lab show. I've been watching Zac Efron’s show on Netflix called something about the earth. It's a lot of biohacking health stuff, he was in that. I just keep seeing him everywhere.

In any case, what do you think, when they were studying fasting water fasts in mice? What was the four changes that they identified as the important, protective, antiaging, health-promoting factors of fasting that they tried to recreate with the fasting mimicking diet? Like they wanted to create a diet that would create these four factors? Isn't this a fun game?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, it's going to be hard. All right, number one, would be calorie restriction.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wait, no.

Gin Stephens: I don’t understand the question.

Melanie Avalon: When they tested the blood, what four blood markers?

Gin Stephens: Okay, okay, okay. I'm going to say blood glucose went down.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. One. Oh, this is so fun.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Insulin went down.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that would have been one of them.

Gin Stephens: But did they not test it?

Melanie Avalon: He didn't list it as the four.

Gin Stephens: Okay, in their blood. Did ketones go up?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Two.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I don't know, do mice have cholesterol? Do they measure cholesterol?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It's not one of the ones.

Gin Stephens: Okay. All right. So, I got two of them. Let's see.

Melanie Avalon: I think you can get the third. I don't think you'll get the fourth.

Gin Stephens: Something they're measuring in the blood of mice. Okay, blood glucose down, ketones up. I don't know, cortisol?

Melanie Avalon: No. I can give you a hint. It relates to growth.

Gin Stephens: Oh, human growth hormone went up?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, then I don't know. You're just going to have to tell me.

Melanie Avalon: You're close, lower IGF-1. Then, the fourth one that I didn't think you would get, higher IGFBP-1.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was not going to get that.

Melanie Avalon: Which is a growth factor inhibitor.

Gin Stephens: I still didn't get it. [laughs] Even though you said it, I couldn't tell you that, no.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, I just found that was really interesting. They found what the water fast that there was lower IGF-1, that's a growth factor promoter. Lower glucose, so lower blood sugar. Higher ketones, and then higher growth factor, IGFBP-1, and that's a growth factor inhibitor. When they created ProLon, or the fasting mimicking diet, they wanted to create a diet that would create those four factors. Pretty cool.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Anything new with you?

Gin Stephens: No, not really. I'm in a fabulous, nothing new kind of a time. It feels good. I have been so stressed out the whole from the beginning of the year till when I turned my book in, and also the new Delay, Don't Deny Social Network. So, it has been like just bam, bam, bam. I don't even know where the year went so far, we're already in June. I've got a big family beach trip coming up and it just feels-- Of course, I've got a lot of editing coming up these different weeks when they're going to send me the copy edits and whatever. But right now, I'm in a nice little lull. I'm reading, I think I talked about this before. I bought a hummingbird feeder for my front yard yesterday. The lady said there probably aren't going to be any hummingbirds for a while, that it's still early or something, I don't know. They are in their little nests. Can you imagine how cute a little hummingbird nest is? Oh my gosh, I know. I would just die if I could see a hummingbird nest. That'd be so cute. Anyway, I was joking with some friends yesterday. I was like, “Does this mean I'm legit old and retired because I'm putting my hummingbird feeder in my yard [laughs] and I'm going to stare at it?”

Melanie Avalon: I spent like an hour before this pruning my cucumbers.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, and that is not a euphemism, people. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what? A euphemism?

Gin Stephens: A euphemism. It's when you say one thing, but it means something else.

Melanie Avalon: For pruning my cucumbers?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, spicy?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs] Ah.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know what that would be. But it just sounded a little bit like one of those double meaning kinds of phrases.

Melanie Avalon: No, these are very real, cucumbers.

Gin Stephens: I do want to say the little baby birds that we had in the nest around Mother's Day, they're gone. They've moved out of the nest.

Melanie Avalon: Where did they go?

Gin Stephens: I guess they flew away. Where do birds go? [laughs] But we actually thought for a brief period of time that they were going to die because Ellie had a bird in the dining room, and we thought it was mama bird. It seemed injured, but we put it out, and Chad's like, “That bird is going to die. If that was mama bird, the babies are going to die.” Then, we were like really sad for a while. I don't know, that bird might not have been injured. If it was a mama bird, she came back and fed them. So, the babies didn't die. The last time Chad looked in there at the nest, they were big babies, they're getting so big. Anyway, the circle of life. This is what I'm doing. It's pretty much birds. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Birds and the bees, I'm contemplating-- I don't know, I wish I could get a pet bee to pollinate my flowers.

Gin Stephens: I think you need a whole ecosystem. That sounds like too much. What's next? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was seriously contemplating this. I was like, “Could I have a pet bee?”

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't think it's got everything it needs to thrive.

Melanie Avalon: Oh right, because then I have to feed the bee.

Gin Stephens: Well.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, the bee eats the flower?

Gin Stephens: No, it doesn't. It's the nectar and then it does something with it. It's getting the nectar out of there, then takes the nectar back to its hive.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: I could be wrong. I don't think it's like eats the nectar. Eats the nectar, then spits it up in the hive, I'm not sure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I do remember that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, like all coming back to me. It's like bee spit. Honey is bee spit. Right?

Melanie Avalon: Another fact I learned from the book about bees and flowers. They used to think bees were attracted to the flower’s color and scent.

Gin Stephens: Isn't it something with like ultraviolet light, like a runway?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like the energy. It's not the flowers-- or it's not the color.

Gin Stephens: If you look at the flower differently, it's a different wavelength. It's not the visible light spectrum that we see. It's a different wavelength you could see. If you go to the airport and on the runway, like go here, arrows. It's kind of like that to the bee. It's like a landing strip, the way it looks to the bee. I think so. For some reason, that's in my head. It's all that elementary school knowledge. [laughs] Maybe I saw it on Magic School Bus or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I asked my Facebook group for ideas about turning my podcast into a TV show, and one person said, it should be like the adult version of Magic School Bus. I got so excited. That would be so incredible. They were like, “And David Sinclair can be the narrator.” Oh, my goodness. Very cool.

Gin Stephens: I loved that TV show when I was a teacher, but see, you were a kid, I was a teacher. I could have been your fourth-grade teacher.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: Could you have? Yes.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I was teaching fourth grade in 1990.

Melanie Avalon: You could not have been my fourth-grade teacher. Oh, wait. Well, you were teaching it after then, too?

Gin Stephens: Yes. And after then. Yes. I could only not have been your teacher if you were in fourth grade prior to 1990.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. Wow.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's how old I am. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That would have been so crazy.

Gin Stephens: I know.

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Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Ryan and the subject is “IF, all or nothing.” Ryan says, “Thanks for the comprehensive and fun pod. I've been IFing for eight months and know it has influenced my eating for life. I'm a 35-year-old male who started IF for the health benefits and lifestyle compatibility. I'm finding myself fit as I was a decade ago with my exercise during these IF months oriented around cardio, and mid to low intensity bodyweight workouts. Recently, however, I've increased the intensity of my bodyweight workouts in a push for the summer body I always wanted, but never once had. Removing breakfast and lunch in lieu of a nighttime window has increased my work performance which is great, and I exercise after work in the fasted state before opening my window until bedtime. I've also finally learned to respect the need for adequate sleep, which prompts the first part of my issue.

My window, typically three to four hours, seems no longer large enough to accommodate the calorie intake I need without uncomfortably stuffing myself. I usually spend one or both weekend days eating normally and have started switching my Wednesdays back to non-IF as well. But my body tells me I'm still not getting enough calories in, which wasn't a problem until this recent exercise change. One obvious solution would be to give up my insistence that all workouts occur in the fasted state and to eat lunch or a smaller meal in the early afternoon.

Enter the second part of my issue. I've learned a lunch will throw me for a mental loop for the rest of the workday. Even if it's a low-carb salad with lean protein and healthy fats, for example, avocados, nuts, and seeds, I feel mentally foggy and have notable loss of cognitive function and alertness. I knew this was a problem when my boss asked me on multiple occasions, if I was okay, which itself is a sign that I was not. And this was an issue before the recent increase in exercise intensity, so I know ratcheting back the exercise won't solve it.

Have you experienced this or counseled others who've dealt with it? I can't be trapped by IF, such that deviating from my usual eating schedule puts me somewhat out of commission on work matters. Successful days are either entirely non-IF or fully IF with my usually intense, but short nighttime window. I'd really appreciate your thoughts. Many thanks, Ryan.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin. I have to tell you something, and I can tell listeners as well. I'm so upset. For listeners, I just went to turn off the pumps on the hydroponic plant things and I realized I hadn't turned the pump on one of them. I hadn't turned the pump back on from my last podcast interview. So, the pump hasn't been running for a few days.

Gin Stephens: It'll be okay. Plants are hardy. Think about in the real world, they have to be able to withstand droughts, they have to be able to withstand monsoons, they are resilient. It will be okay.

Melanie Avalon: I was sitting there today. I was staring at it, and I was like, “I just feel like it's not getting the nutrients it needs.” That's probably why.

Gin Stephens: It is fine. It will be okay.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for talking me off the ledge.

Gin Stephens: Just think about how in nature, plants can do all sorts of crazy things. They're hardy.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it's okay. Okay. I'm glad that that happened.

Gin Stephens: Your plant was fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs] But they're in a growth mode right now, remind me at the end to turn the pump back on. Ryan, this is a really great question, and I thought about it a lot, and I have so many thoughts. Okay, to start, hope I can articulate all of this well, the first thing I have is a question. He talks about how he upped his workout to get the summer body that he always wanted, but never had. He doesn't tell us what his weight or what his stats were before. So, it's important to know-- I'm guessing this is the final push, that stubborn last part, especially since it's for the summer body. The reason I think that's important is, I'm wondering, when he says that he feels he's not getting the amount of fuel-- Does he say fuel or calorie intake?

Gin Stephens: He says calorie intake. Remember, we talked about this last time. The fuel comes from what you're taking in, but also from your body.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so his body says that he's not getting enough calories in. I'm curious what he's experiencing, feeling like he's not getting enough calories. Is it hunger? Is that lack of energy? Does he feel he's not building adequate muscle? What is it? The reason I'm emphasizing that is that if this is the final push, I feel it's a situation where it might be normal to experience hunger. Does that make sense? If it's the final push to do something that's a little bit resistant, I don't know if doing so can be done without feeling any sort of--

Gin Stephens: A little hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I would evaluate first, as far as maybe, are you getting enough calories in? Maybe you are for the goal that you're achieving? I don't know, because I don't know exactly where he's at. But that's my first part. I also want to do a disclaimer and a clarification, obviously, we're not doctors. But two, I do think when it comes to this, as far as the body having hormonal issues and things like that, that it's less common in men. Men can more healthfully do what Ryan is doing than women without having to worry quite as much about creating a lot of hormonal damage. And the reason I say that is if it is a natural state of hunger that he actually needs to be in to get the “body” he wants, it might all be okay.

All of that said, the continuation of my thoughts. First of all, I completely relate with when you're doing fasting, and then it's hard to go back to daytime eating and experiencing the brain fog or the loss of cognitive function like he says, and I'm really jealous. I feel some people do fasting, like a one meal a day type thing, and then they are able to eat on days that they want and they don't experience that, and I'm really jealous, but that's not me. I completely understand and identify with that. My suggestion would be, what do you want to preserve with everything? It looks like you really want to preserve the fasted state in the workday, it looks like that's the thing that's really important to keep.

Gin Stephens: The mental clarity. I would keep that obviously-- and then sure, we are going to have to adjust other factors if you do decide that you really do need more calories. Well, I like what he's doing where he said he was doing one or two days of the weekend not fasting, so just do both days of the weekend not fasting is like a thing. Then, he talks about potentially fueling the workout, or not doing the workout in the fasted state. Again, if you decide that you can still get the body composition changes that you want, while not working out in the fasted state some days, then I think that's completely fine. This might sound crazy, but this might be a thing where you might want to do a bulletproof decaf coffee and don't really qualify it either way about it being part of the fast. You might be able to do something with the workouts to get in more calories throughout the day and fuel the workouts without breaking the cognitive state and getting the lethargy. This might actually be a situation where something like MCT oil before some of the workouts might actually work for you.

I'm also wondering, it sounds like you cram everything into your window, your dinner window. I'm guessing there's not really much room to lengthen that at all. Otherwise, I'm assuming you would have done that. But if there is a way you could do that, even if it's just changing around how you're prepping your dinner, maybe there's a way that you can eat your dinner sooner after your workout and have a longer window. Also, if you wanted to add just calories to your window and make them more easily absorbable without feeling like you're completely stuffing yourself, that actually might be something where I brought up the MCT oil, you might be able to add that to your food, to your dinner, and that actually might, A, get you even faster to your goals because I personally experienced and there's this girl on Instagram who's been talking about it a lot. She has a big following, but they're experimenting with adding MCT oil to the meals and actually losing more weight. So, that might be a way to actually add in a lot of calories, but also move you closer to your goal.

The very last thing is, it's a little bit ironic because I'm saying focus on protein and nutrient density. The reason I think it's ironic is because if you're not doing this already, which I feel he probably is, based on what he said, the type of things that he eats. True, if you eat more protein, it's actually going to make it harder to eat more, and I know he's thinking that it needs to eat more, but it's the nutrients, especially with the bodybuilding state and the fat loss state that you want to be eating and need to be eating. So, it might be possible that you don't actually need to eat more calories, but you just need to focus on the protein and the nutrients. So, playing around with what you're eating, it might not be a calorie thing, it might be a macronutrient-nutrient thing. Those are my thoughts. I thought about it a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's all just a matter of tweak it till it's easy, Ryan, and finding what feels good to you. You'll really only know it when you feel it and you find it. It sounds like you were feeling great before you increased the intensity of your workouts. That made you feel hungrier, like you weren't getting enough to eat. And then, having the longer window, including lunch, takes away that mental clarity that you were enjoying so much. That totally makes sense, but think about what we always were told by our grandparents, you exercise, you're working up a good appetite. Your body is telling you, you need more fuel, if that's indeed what your body is telling you. It sounds logical to me. Figuring out a way-- and this is where you've just got to tweak it. Like I said, figure out a way to-- I would not suggest having the lunch because clearly that's not feeling right, that would not be the tweak I would make, but playing around with maybe having something in the late afternoon, a little something, and then having your workout.

You hinted earlier that you would consider maybe not working out in the fasted state, so to try that. Just see how that goes. You said, the only way you're having success is to be either all or nothing, non-IF or fully IF. Then, you said you have an intense but short nighttime window. I also want you to consider that as you get to your goal, you're probably going to need more fuel, just in light of the fact that you're not going to be burning as much body fat. Like I found when I got to my goal size, I did need a little more food than I was to lose weight. You need to eat more in maintenance than you did to lose the weight, that's just how our bodies are hungrier because we're maintaining and we're not getting as much fuel from our short fat, if that makes sense. I think I just talked in circles. But hopefully, I made sense with it. Depending on how much fat you're still burning, and how much working out you're doing, think about lengthening that window, but not so long as to impact your workday and make you sluggish. You've got to figure out how you can do that. I wonder if you could work out early before work, then you'd really be ready to go for work and then have an afternoon snack before the end of work.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about that, but then I thought he probably would just be hungry and would have the cognitive issues of eating.

Gin Stephens: Well, it depends. I don't know, working out in the fasted state, it might just really pop up his alertness, make him feel better and more alert, because he's deep in the fat burning state and then have a longer window on the back end.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I guess it would depend if it makes him super hungry right after.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. It would depend on that. I find that when I'm really, really active in the fast, that I'm not as hungry for a while after working out-- during the fasted workout. It all changes up when just in-- maybe the next day, I might be hungrier though. I really do believe that if your body is sending you, “I'm hungry” signals, there's a reason.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, the reason might be that it's this final push and that's why it might be something that you have to just accept. It's hard to know where he's at and what he's trying to do. Like I said, I'm much more comfortable talking about this when it's a man than a female. Not because it's a gender bias, because it's just literally our bodies are different.

One other thing I thought of, so I'm actually interviewing tomorrow, John Jaquish. I don't know how you say his last name. I think I might have mentioned it. Did I mention him to you, Gin? He makes the X3 Resistant Band system.

Gin Stephens: Yes, you mentioned him to me.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I learned so much in that book. It was a situation where-- because I don't actively seek out exercise science books or information, I probably should. So, it's really nice when it just lands in my lap, they reached out to me to bring him on the show. He's been on Dave Asprey and a lot of other shows and other podcasters that I listen to have been mentioning his bands. His book goes into the exercise science of muscle building, I learned so much. It's so interesting when something that you're steeped in normally-- like tomorrow when we record, I just still don't feel like I have the knowledge that I would like to engage in an intellectual dialogue about it, but that's fine, I'm going to learn.

The point of all this was he talks about usability of proteins. I was trying to look up charts online, because I think people often say that whey protein is super usable, and that's why they use it. I feel he said in the book that it wasn't, which is confusing, but something that also might help Ryan is experimenting with the type of protein that he's eating. For example, like egg whites are typically known to have the highest bioavailability and then fish. Fish is more easily digestible sometimes than other meats, so you might be able to eat more of it, and also get more protein that you need. Then, meat is farther down the line. I was trying to figure out exactly where chicken lies, but that might be something to look up. You could google protein bioavailability.

Gin Stephens: Can I tell you something cool that I just thought of while you were talking? We have new neighbors across the street, and they have gutted the house across the street from the 60s, and they are totally rebuilding it. They're there are a lot, and now that I'm sitting in the front yard, since we're redoing our backyard, I have a lot of time to talk to them, because they are in the front and you're waiting for the workers that are working on the house if they can lock up. Well, the husband of the couple, he is a retired exercise physiology researcher. Fascinating stuff. He was telling me all these stories about-- he worked with top level tennis players and the impact of heat and sweat. He wouldn't tell me what tennis player it was, but it’s somebody we would know. The amount of sweat output he was having, and so he helped him with electrolyte supplementation based on that. He and I had a great discussion about electrolyte supplementation, and who needed it and who didn't. It was really fascinating. This is just in the wild with my neighbor.

Melanie Avalon: No, that's amazing. Exercise science is so fascinating.

Gin Stephens: It really is. Basically, a lot of us don't need it, [laughs] the electrolyte supplementation. But some people do, obviously this high-level tennis player who was working out like crazy and sweating like buckets, he had the highest sweat output, like I said, this exercise researcher had ever seen, is going to need supplementation.

Melanie Avalon: I think a lot of people who are not eating the standard American diet needs electrolytes more, because our processed food is so high in sodium and when people switch to a whole foods diet, they lose a lot of electrolytes.

Gin Stephens: Well, he and I didn't get into that. But we also talked about children and how much heat they can take, which was interesting to me as an elementary teacher. He actually was instrumental in the writing the American Academy of Pediatrics advice for what kids can do in the heat before they need to hydrate and stuff like that. Basically, healthy kids are very resilient. There's no one size fits all, that was the best thing that I took away from the whole conversation, which is everything we say all the time. There is no one size fits all recommendation for anything. He, as a science researcher, found that in everything he was doing as well. He talked about how difficult it was, because the American Academy of Pediatrics wanted a one size fits all recommendation. He's like, “If you're going to do that, I refuse to be a part of it. I'm not doing that.”

Melanie Avalon: One of the things that John says all throughout the book is how he thinks exercise science is-- it has a lot of tenets in it that it sort of wanted to cling to and that it was hard to evolve appropriately.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's all science. I think that's true because when you come up believing something and you're trained in it, just like the cholesterol paradigm, for example. With doctors, that's just one example. When you're trained in something and it's what you believe, it's hard to shift as we learn new things. That's true for all of us.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, one of the stories that Valter Longo tells in his book is, how I guess, in 1994, because there's all these debating theories about aging and longevity and what causes aging. I guess, he formed the idea that we have programs for aging. Cells are programmed to die at a certain time, and maybe you can manipulate those programs based on diet and fasting and things like that. He says a story about how I guess he had a debate in 1994 about the cause of aging, and he put forth his thesis. He said at the end, the audience voted, and the audience was all scientists and lots of people like that, and they voted who they thought was correct, and he lost. With the follow-up polls, he had actually convinced over half of the people of his idea, but people don't like-- I guess in science, it's hard to not accept the current idea, even if they think that something else makes more sense.

Gin Stephens: It's true. Confirmation bias is real, and the inability to change your paradigm is hard. It's hard for people to do when you've believed something for so long. But we all have that in us, and we have to fight against it.

Melanie Avalon: Also, the power of groupthink, so not wanting to go against all the studies they do, where they have people-- like people enter rooms, and they don't know that it's a setup, and everybody will do something weird, but because everybody else is doing it, they'll start doing it, or they won't. This happened to me in real life the other day, and I saw it happening. I was like, “I know this is what this is,” but I still did it. Outside of my apartment, there's the street and there's parallel parking on both sides. You know how parking in streets around communities or neighborhoods can be casual. People might park the wrong way with the parallel parking because it's not the outside world. The road right outside of my apartment, there's parallel parking, and everybody on one side was parked the wrong way. They were all parked opposite the flow of traffic with the parallel parking. There was one open space, and there's like six spots. I was like, “Do I park the way I know I'm supposed to park? Or do I park the wrong way like every other single car?” So, I parked the wrong way. I was like, “This is what this is.”

Gin Stephens: That'd be hard for me as a rule follower.

Melanie Avalon: Would you park the right way?

Gin Stephens: It might depend on what was convenient. Was it more convenient for you to park the “right” way? Or, was it more convenient for you to park like everybody else, based on the way your car was pointed?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, at the time?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's a good question. I don't remember. I definitely sat there. I was like, “Hmm.”

Gin Stephens: That would be a factor. Yeah, that actually might have been a factor now that I think about it but I definitely had the debate. I was like, “This is what this is. This is me wanting to go with the group.”

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All right, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have two questions sort of related. The first one is from Michelle. The subject is “Not working/PCOS.” Michelle says, “Hey, ladies, love your podcast, I have been intermittent fasting for about a month now. I'm doing a 20:4, sometimes 19:5 window, eating from 3:00 to 7:00 PM, and I feel really good while fasting. However, I am gaining weight, not losing. I do treat myself to ice cream somewhat frequently. Other than that, I eat mostly meat, veggies, fruits, and rice. I also exercise for 30 minutes about three to four times a week, usually jogging or weightlifting. I have PCOS, which I know can make weight loss harder, but I can't help but feel discouraged. I'm not planning to stop doing IF because I really like it. But any advice on what I should change or do differently? How long does it take to start losing?

Lastly, my husband and I are trying to start a family. With PCOS, it's a bit harder but we are working with a great OB-GYN and are hopeful. I listened to your IF stories podcast with the OB-GYN, and I've heard you guys mentioned great things about IF for people with PCOS. My mom keeps sending me articles that say not to do IF when trying to become pregnant because it messes with your cycle. Should I be worried about that? Thanks for all you do.”

Then, a continuation of that after we answer that, we can also address Katie's question about pregnancy. And she says, “Hi, ladies. Love your podcast. I'm currently testing out intermittent fasting. After many hours of research, I see that IF may not be suitable for those trying to get pregnant, or those who are pregnant. Could you shed some light on this? I am trying to conceive, but don't want to do anything to harm myself or the baby. Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: Of course, the number one best advice is have these conversations with your OB-GYN and don't take what we're saying as advice of what you should do. Even the doctor, I'm getting ready to mention Dr. Cecily Ganheart, she says the same thing. I am not your doctor, she'll say-- I've seen on Instagram say it, “Even though I am a doctor, I'm not your doctor, I'm not giving you medical advice.” That would be her talking, not me, because I'm not a doctor. I'm definitely not giving you medical advice. Even a doctor will not give you medical advice at random. So, just keep that in mind.

I want to first go to what Katie said do not do intermittent fasting while you're pregnant. 100%. For everybody who has not yet listened to the episode that Michelle was talking about, it's Episode 34 of Intermittent Fasting Stories, Dr. Cecily Ganheart. If you go to just any Google, whatever, and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories, Cecily Ganheart, G-A-N-H-E-A-R-T, or probably you could type in Intermittent Fasting Stories Episode 34, it'll take you to her episode, and she's an OB-GYN, who is an intermittent faster herself, but she also works with a lot of patients who have PCOS and fertility issues. Her strategy that she uses with those patients is intermittent fasting coupled with dietary changes. So, not to be flippant, I would listen to her before I would listen to your mom. Sorry, mom. I think Dr. Ganheart knows based on what's working with patients. You could find all sorts of articles that say literally anything, including the earth is flat. So, I would not go based on articles anyone is sending you from the internet, unless they're written by-- if there’s any medical journals, that would be different.

With PCOS, Michelle, let's address that, first of all. PCOS is linked to high insulin levels. The reason intermittent fasting works so well is because it lowers your insulin levels naturally, because you're fasting clean, and insulin goes down during the fast. But that is also why Dr. Ganheart with her PCOS patients works on what they're eating as well because when you describe what you're eating, mostly meat, veggies, fruits, and rice, she tends to employ a low-carb approach with her PCOS patients because that's also great at lowering insulin and that’s what you targeted, you're trying to do. She finds with her patients that when you lower insulin levels, fertility increases, and that is what you're hoping to find. You're hoping for increased fertility, so lowering insulin should be what you're focused on. On the flip side, there's the whole mastering diabetes mindset of actually eating low fat, high carb, also to lower your insulin levels. You just really have to decide. I think both are good at it, but you can't be there in the middle. Melanie and I've talked about that many times. In the middle is where it's murkier. If your goal is lowering insulin levels, you need to really commit to one or the other, if it's for this purpose of fertility with PCOS.

Back to Katie's question as well, who didn't say anything about being PCOS, should she do intermittent fasting while she's trying to get pregnant? Well, that depends. As long as you're not using intermittent fasting in an overly restrictive way, it's likely to not be a problem. Just like Melanie talked about a few minutes ago, when we were reading Ryan's question, women's hormones are more delicate in a state of over-restriction. You don't want to over-restrict while you're trying to get pregnant. But intermittent fasting is not necessarily overly restrictive. That's the whole-- I mean, I also wouldn't do the hCG diet, when I'm trying to get pregnant. I wouldn't do a very low-calorie diet when I was trying to get pregnant. You need to nourish your body well, but you can do that in the intermittent fasting paradigm, but you just have to be mindful of how you're nourishing your body.

Back to Michelle who said that she's been doing intermittent fasting for about a month and not losing weight and actually gaining weight, that's not abnormal. I talk about that in Fast. Feast. Repeat., that's why I want you to take that whole first month, as just the 28-Day FAST Start, you're nailing the clean fast, you're not even looking at the scale. Then after that you can start-- you're tweaking it for weight loss, if that's your goal. The foods are going to be even more important, if you're trying to think about getting pregnant. If your goal is fertility right now, maybe weight loss should not be your goal. Put that on the back burner and focus on nourishing your body and an eating window that feels good to you, getting insulin down. I think that's your best bet. Also, ready to quit the intermittent fasting as soon as you find out that you're pregnant. Back when I had the Facebook groups, we heard all the time from people who had trouble with fertility, started intermittent fasting, bam, then they were pregnant. Did I get to everything that she said?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, I guess just to clarify, when you actually are pregnant--

Gin Stephens: Stop.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. That was a really fabulous answer.

Gin Stephens: Dr. Ganheart says that. She loves intermittent fasting, but she does not want you to do it when you are pregnant. Do it as part of healing the PCOS, then take a break until the baby is weaned, not just through the pregnancy, but all the way through the breastfeeding time too. Do you know why my number one reason for not recommending breastfeeding and intermittent fasting, Melanie, is not just about your milk flow and your supply, like some people think.

Melanie Avalon: Is it because toxins?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We're in a different world now. Actually, I was having this conversation we were having with one of the moderators in the Delay, Don't Deny moderators, I'm not there anymore. I mean, it was a really good conversation. It wasn't like a bad conversation, or anybody was in trouble, or we were mad. No. It was just we were having a conversation behind the scenes about breastfeeding. One of the moderators said, “I can't think that it would actually be really a problem because women always were breastfeeding their babies in times of famine, and then they were able to.” I'm like, “Well, a lot of things are different now. First of all, not just because your baby is going to be fine. We want your baby to be optimal, not just fine.” That's one thing, but just having a milk supply is not the only thing because now we live in such a toxic world. This was reiterated when I was researching for Clean(ish). How many toxins are actually passed through breast milk to the babies? It's because we're just like in this whole chemical soup now. Even if you're trying really hard not to be, you are you, you can't help it. So, you've got toxins stored in your fat, even if you live a pretty clean life.

When you're breastfeeding, if you're losing fat, then you're going to be releasing those toxins from your fat stores. So, it's almost like you really don't want to be losing weight at all while you're pregnant or breastfeeding, because of the toxins. This is different. This is not like thousand years ago, when people were still able to grow a healthy baby even with all the crazy famines and whatever they were going through. We've got a different environment than they had.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to bring that up. Also, one of the biggest detox moments that a woman experiences is actually when she's pregnant, because the toxins actually go through the placenta, into the baby. That's why it's so, so important that those are the toxins are coming from processed food, our environment, and then that's why we always talk about our skincare and makeup because that is one of our largest sources of exposure. If you're using conventional skincare and makeup, you are literally putting on probably compounds straight into your body. These are endocrine disruptors, and there's been thousands of compounds that Europe has banned, they actually regulate it there. The US has banned around a dozen. You can pull it up on their website on the FDA. They list like 12 things.

Gin Stephens: It's true. When I was researching for Clean(ish), it really just made it so much more important than it ever had before. The understanding of why this is so important. I have a whole chart in Clean(ish) about all the things they found in the cord blood of the baby’s and in the breast milk. It's shocking. I don't want to scare people into being afraid to live because we have to live, but there's a lot going on.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's why I love Beautycounter.

Gin Stephens: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: By the way, for women, because Beautycounter makes skincare that you need, they make sunscreen, they make shampoo and conditioner, which I love. They make makeup, their makeup’s amazing. Tina Fey actually wore it at the Golden Globes this past year. But they also make-- I don't think most people realize this, they have a line for kids. They have like a baby wash and diaper balm and all of that stuff.

Gin Stephens: And for men, they have a men’s line.

Melanie Avalon: By the time this comes out, this will have aired, but for Father's Day, my dad is getting a lot of Beautycounter. He's getting Beautycounter and Dry Farm Wines. I emailed Dry Farm Wines and asked if they could make me a-- because normally those wines are on the lighter side, like body wise, but he likes heavy cabs[?]. I asked if they can make me a box of like the heaviest cabs that they have. Fun fact, if you like Dry Farm Wines, you can email them and they will make you a special box for whatever you want. So, I did that for him. Then I did it for a friend who specifically likes wines from the Loire Valley. I was like, “Can you make me a box of wines from the Loire Valley?” So, fun times. Links, if you want any of that, a bottle for a penny of Dry Farm Wines, is at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and then you can shop with us at Beautycounter at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Did you have anything you wanted to add?

Melanie Avalon: Her mom was talking about IF messing with your cycles. Gin talks about this. Yes, if IF is too restrictive, then it can create hormonal problems. The emphasis, and it's a slight change in words, is that her mom is cautioning her not to do IF because it messes with your cycle. The way to approach it would be, isn't messing with your cycle. If your cycles not changing, I don't think IF is sneakily changing your cycle behind the scenes, but it still appears normal, like you will know. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Also, on the flip side of that, people often have cycle changes as their bodies are adjusting to IF and then things regulate. Just because you have a couple of months that are wonky, doesn't mean, “Uh-oh, I better quit.”

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: It doesn't happen-- it's not that fast. If it does cause hormonal problems that's going to happen later, as you're going. If things start getting worse and worse and worse and worse, bad sign. But if things are weird for a while, then they improve, that's normal.

Melanie Avalon: Then, the last thing I wanted to touch on was, I think a lot of the fear surrounding fasting and fertility-- Well, Gin talked about this already that people equate fasting with over-restriction, which it can be. It can easily be, but it's not a synonym for it. The other thing though, and I've talked about this on prior episodes as well, but the majority of studies in fertility for females that are used to create this idea of it being an issue are in rodents. I just can't say this enough. So, rodents are reproducing on a much faster timeline. They have a shorter lifespan, they've a much shorter lifespan. I think it's like two years max. They're reproducing much more frequently, so they're much more sensitive to factors that would throw that off.

Gin Stephens: Stressors.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they do “time-restricted eating” in a rat, where they're fasting for a day. That's days and days, if not weeks in a human a fasting. Those two factors together, the fact that the fasting studies in rats are the equivalent of very long, extended fasts, and they're more sensitive to fertility issues with fasting anyways, if you see a rodent study that says fasting creates hormonal problems and fertility, I don't think you can make those connections to humans at all. I actually just finished reading an entire book about female fertility and the female cycle and all of that. It was very, very informative. I learned so much. I didn't know about the different phases of the cycle, like the follicular and the luteal, and ovulatory. I didn't know how hormones changed, and I learned so much. I'm probably going to do an episode with that author about that book. But the author does talk about fasting and its effects on fertility and makes the case that fasting is very detrimental for fertility. If there were an author to make this case-- if there were studies that really showed this, I think the author would have found those studies and put them in, but there really weren't any studies listed that to me, seem to make that case.

There was a rodent study, there were some studies that showed hormonal changes, but overall, it was more nuanced and complex than fasting is bad for your hormones or something like that. The reason I say that is I think a lot of people have this idea that fasting is a negative thing for fertility, but when you actually sit down and look at the literature, I don't see it anywhere. I'm looking for it. I see in the rodent studies, but I don't think they're applicable, and then on the flip side, I think we have so much-- just like Gin was talking about with-- what was the doctor?

Gin Stephens: Dr. Cecily Ganheart. She actively uses it as a strategy to help her patients that are having trouble with fertility.

Melanie Avalon: Right, exactly. I think the issue is just that fasting, and I said it already, but it can-- Oh, especially for a lot of women very easily become too restrictive, but it doesn't have to, and it can actually be really incredible and really healing and really supportive of fertility. So, it just depends on how you are doing the fasting.

Gin Stephens: And any diet could be a problem for women with fertility if they're overdoing the restriction.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Maybe we can do it next week. We actually had another question that's sort of related to this. But in any case, yeah, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you would like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Just fun fact, those are the ways to submit questions. People keep DMing me on Instagram, trying to submit questions and I'm like, “If you want it on the show, it's got to go through the email.” Speaking of, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes for today's episode, which will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode219. Lastly, you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, well, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye. Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jun 13

Episode 217: Bile & Gallbladder Stones, Longevity, Asthma, Steroids, Berberine, Hyperglycemia, Glucose Tolerance, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 217 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Listener Feedback: Mario - Gallstones follow up

Gallstones (Johns Hopkins)

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #82 - Sergey Young

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/90ifpodcast And Use Code 90IFPODCAST To Get $90 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Christine - Inhalers/Puffers'

Listener Q&A: Jen - Everything Is Terrible: Berberine Rebound Hyperglycemia/Glucose Tolerance, Microbiome Changes?

Go To Melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM And Use Coupon Code MelanieAvalon For 15% Off Select Packages

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #93 - Shawn Wells

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 217 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. Ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for led, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

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And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter. People share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. Again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 217 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am great. I'm in this phase of in between when I sent off my book with the edits that my editor wanted me to make, and now it's in copy editing. So, I have a couple of weeks of downtime and [sighs] [laughs] copy editing is scary.

Melanie Avalon: So, then it'll come back and then--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I’ve got all the dates, I can't remember them. Actually, here I have the printout of them beside me. I had them somewhere, but here they are. The copy editor, I'll get it back June 28 from the copy editor. Then, I have a week to get it all back to them. Then, I get another set of it a month later after they've done something else with it. then I have another week or so, maybe two weeks this time to give more feedback. This is the thing though that's so scary. Sometimes, things get changed up. Like I found out with Fast. Feast. Repeat., something got changed in the process that was right on one version, and then some paragraph got in there in the wrong place. So, you have to read it so carefully and make sure things didn't get moved around. There's a lot of hands on it. Let me just put it that way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember when that happened with my book a few times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm just going to cross my fingers that I'm reading it for-- I don't know when I'm reading it for Audible, but I hope that I'm reading it for Audible before it's in line for the printer, because that's what happened last time. I was reading it for Audible, and I found the weird things. And they're like, “Too late. We're already in line at the printer.” I'm like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Then, you can't apparently change something, get out of line. Seems like you should be able to do that, you should be able to change your file, but you can't. It's not how it works.

Melanie Avalon: Well, fingers crossed, it all manifests.

Gin Stephens: It's true. It's a lot more complicated than self-publishing, but so much worth it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I went in Barnes & Noble this week. Every now and then, I just go in and I like to look at my book on the shelf. It was so surreal because since my last name is Avalon, A, I'm right by all the authors, so like Dave Asprey, I'm right by Dave. I took a picture and I put it on my Instagram, but I took a picture of just my book and the immediate surrounding books, and I knew so many people right next to me, and it's weird to think that that's just the As and Bs and Cs, authors. It was like, Dave Asprey, James Clement, Jonathan Bailor, Dr. Alan Christianson, I was like, “So many people.” It's exciting. I didn't sign it though. Do you sign it if you ever go in?

Gin Stephens: Well, I've done it a couple times. Yeah, I did. I did it one time in Augusta, and once at Myrtle Beach. The one at Myrtle Beach was funny. It was before I stopped doing as much drinking as I'm doing, not that I was like some crazy drinker, but we had been to brunch. I was there with my friends from college. We had been to brunch for a long time and had multiple drinks. They were like, “Let's go see if my book is there.” I was like, “I'm the author. Can I sign it?” They're probably like, “That girl, she's crazy,” [laughs] because I was in the happy phase of having had a few drinks. Let me just put it that way. I wasn't like sloppy wasted, no. [laughs] But that's not how I roll, you know what I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder how long Barnes & Noble is open. If they're open late, I should do that sometime, like have a glass of wine and then--

Gin Stephens: Maybe don't go after a long, long boozy brunch. I'm sure they probably were like-- we were[?] lots of fun. Let's just call it that, but that might be like the last time I had that much to drink, because right after that, I was like it's really just not working for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can't day drink.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, we did go have a nap after that. [laughs] But no day drinking is definitely not for me. Now, just one drink, two drinks max, and I'm just like, “All right, that's enough. It feels so much better.”

Melanie Avalon: I don't ever really drink that much. I drink my Dry Farm Wines. Actually, I'm continuing to read Dr. Breus’s book, The Power of When. He talks about the best time for each chronotype to drink their drink.

Gin Stephens: Well, now I really wonder what the best time for me to drink.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, because do we think you're a lion?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think I'm a lion.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, the lion, I can tell you really quick.

Gin Stephens: Is the answer never? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I think it's early in the day. Let me check. You would have dinner and one drink at 6 o’clockish. The lion’s metabolism best tolerates alcohol at 4 o’clock. He says, “In good conscience, I can't advise anyone to start happy hour at 4 o’clock, but that is when lion’s metabolism best tolerates alcohol. If you start drinking at dinnertime, you can handle one or two glasses without feeling flattened, but do not drink after 7:30 PM, or your body won't be able to metabolize the alcohol in your system before bed.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, my gosh, that is 100% true. He's right. Yes. When I have one glass of wine with an earlier kind of dinner, it's when I keep drinking it or have a second glass after dinner and nurse it for a while until maybe 8 or 9, that's when it starts to interfere with my sleep. He's right. That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon: For me, I'm a dolphin. Okay, for the dolphin, if you meet a friend for a drink or have a glass of wine between 8:30 to 10:30, make sure you have your last swallow by 9 PM. Significantly later for the dolphin that I can have my wine. I usually have my last wine usually by 10.

Gin Stephens: I feel like if I had a glass of wine at 4, then I'd be asleep by 8. [laughs] That's not going to work.

Melanie Avalon: Is this what you experienced? He talks about how the lion, it's like once they hit their, like sleep time, the brain just shuts off. It's just bedtime.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's really, really hard to stay awake.

Melanie Avalon: I always saw my dad experienced that. I just don't understand that. I just can't comprehend that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm like, “I've got to go to bed right now.”

Melanie Avalon: That's what makes it sound like.

Gin Stephens: Even in college, I would be the one who be like, “I'm out.” [laughs] Not all the time, but sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: He talks about for each chronotype when they leave the party. He talks about how the lions are the first leave the party.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh, I'm definitely a lion.

Melanie Avalon: The wolves are the last to leave. Yeah, so next week, I'm just doing a phone call just to talk to him, and then going to bring him on the show. So very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Anyways, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a follow-up email about a topic we've been discussing on the show, which was the role of fasting and gallstones. This comes from Mario. Mario says, “Gin and Melanie. It seems you have just answered a question on the gallbladder on a recent podcast, but you said you were only able to find limited evidence about this in journals. I'm hoping to shed a bit of light on this. I work in healthcare, and I have some anecdotal evidence with this but not much in terms of medical journals. Like Gin says, you'd hear more about it if it was a problem. My anecdotal evidence is not for people who practice fasting as a lifestyle, but those who fast for religious purposes. During Lent and Ramadan, more people come in for gallbladder complaints. The theory behind this is that the gallbladder is a wallet for unused bile in the body. When you eat a fatty meal, the liver secretes bile, but while it is busy making more, your body pulls out readymade bile that was stored in your gallbladder. Stones in general precipitate out of solution when there is increased concentrations, like crystallizing salts when you boil off the water, but it does not redissolve when the concentration goes down. Gallstones can have different types depending on the components, such as calcium stones from oxalates, and this can depend on your diet. If the gallbladder is constantly emptying out, there's less chance for the stones to form. If there are stones, they're usually small and will sink to the bottom of the gallbladder. Therefore, fasting allows for biliary stasis, which then leads to more time for stone formation. Unfortunately, stone formation is a lengthy process. Journal studies generally do not do studies that will give results in a few years, because of the funding issues to do long studies and the rate of patients getting lost to follow up. Also, when your study has no marketing potential, so no drug to sell or process to market, there is no reason to do studies for it.”

I have quick question, Gin, because I was thinking about this a lot, because I do think about that how the intention of studies is typically to sell drugs, but there are a lot of studies on fasting. There's not really drugs related to fasting. Have you thought about this before?

Gin Stephens: It really depends on who's funding the study. He's right when he says that a lot of studies are funded by drug companies, but not all of them are. Not all studies are funded by drug companies. You can get grants and things like that. My husband's a research chemist, and so he's not been funded by a drug company ever.

Melanie Avalon: True. The closest thing would be, if ever they try to develop fasting mimetic drugs or drugs that-- if they're setting fasting, to figure out how the health benefits happen, then try and create drugs that would mimic that.

Gin Stephens: There's a lot of stuff going on at universities, that is not funded by like Big Pharma.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. That's good.

Gin Stephens: There's a lot that is.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so he says, “The IF community is relatively young for the amount of time it takes for stones to develop. Maybe when the 20-year-olds in your community reach 50s to 60s after doing IF for 30 years, then we may get some data, and can do a retrospective study on the effects of intermittent fasting on gallstones. I first heard of IF about five years ago. I found out about the different plans but was unable to get started due to a lack of resolve and meal planning. The gallbladder issue was a factor back then too, but my friend was unable to address that question. My tip for looking up information about this topic will be to look up Abstracts and PubMed and Google Scholar, but use jargon like biliary stasis, which is delayed gallbladder emptying.” I don't even know how to say this. I feel bad for our transcript writers right now. Cholelithiasis, which is gallstones or cholecys--

Gin Stephens: Cholecystitis.

Melanie Avalon: Cholecystitis, which is gallbladder inflammation, due to gallbladder blocked by gallstones, which is the cause of the gallbladder-associated pain. He says, “You can also take a look at textbooks for the theory rather than in journals. I hope this clarifies a bit and helps you in your research. I'm still interested in continuing this on for now but wonder if more frequent cheat days is the solution for this. Kind regards, Mario.”

Gin Stephens: That was great info, Mario. Thank you for sending that in. It makes me think instead of “cheat days,” maybe ADF, alternate daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, that would be--

Gin Stephens: Because every other day is an up day if you're doing alternate daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon: With the stasis that he talks about with things, I wonder how many hours it takes for that to--

Gin Stephens: Me, too. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The study we talked about the last time was the one that looked at the fasting. I feel there was an increased risk at-- wasn't it between like 12 and 16 hours or 12 hours, but then after that the risk actually went down?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For listeners, we talked about this on a recent episode. One other thing I'd like to just draw attention to that he talked about, I do like how he pointed out that we don't really have long-term studies on a lot of the things in the IF community. It will be interesting to see over time how things manifest, but we have been doing fasting for a very long time as a species. At least there's that. It reminds me one of the things that Gary Taubes talks about in Case for Keto is, he questions the potential safety of foods and dietary protocols and things like that. He talks about how a lot of people debate health potential of dietary fat. I think he's quoting somebody else, but he calls them vintage fats. It's more likely that the fats we've been eating for thousands of years are likely much more safe for the human constitution than non-vintage fats, or just food in general.

Gin Stephens: I agree completely. Really, I think if we all just started eating real food that people have been eating for thousands of years, if you go back to what your great, great, great, great grandmother ate, and ate that, you'll probably be fine. You can't just say grandmother, because my grandmother was drinking Tab and putting saccharin in her tea. So, you have to go back farther than your grandmother [laughs] now, but the foods that are bought our bodies are adapted to eating those foods that are traditional foods.

Melanie Avalon: Like even saturated fats, for example, we've been eating for thousands of years compared to-- Well, obviously, like trans fats, but even refined polyunsaturated fats, we wouldn't really have been exposed to.

Gin Stephens: Well, think back in history, let's go back to Medieval England. The nobility that had the more refined foods and the more indulgent foods and the more processed foods, they had worse lifestyle diseases than the peasants. They were all healthy. I would have been a peasant. [laughs] My family, they were peasants. We're down there eating the brown bread, and I don't know what else we were eating. It was probably not something I would recognize as food right now. But we had different issues, obviously, with our health people were more likely to die of infections and viruses, the plague. But the lifestyle diseases with the food, the nobility did have those.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's definitely been a trend. Affluence and the effect. Thank you, Mario. That was very insightful, everything that he said,

Gin Stephens: Thank you for sending it. In 30 years, we'll have a follow up on episode 10,942. I don't know. I just did that. That's probably not the right math, but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The other book I'm reading right now are one of the books. There's so many. I'm bringing back on-- I think I talked about Sergey Young before, he's the longevity investor. He finally has his book coming out. I'm reading it right now. It's blowing my mind. Okay, the stuff that he thinks is going to happen relatively soon with health advances, I'll be really, really curious to see if it manifests. It seems like so out there and so far removed, but you think about how far we've come just in a few years, I guess, it could be possible. I mean, it's all longevity stuff, but in reversing aging, but wearables and monitoring health conditions and computer artificial intelligence and health. We shall see.

Gin Stephens: That is so cool. By the way, I just actually did the math, it will not be Episode 10,000. It'll be Episode 1560 in 30 years, plus 217. The reason I thought it would be so big is because we already are on episode 217, and it feels like we just started.

Melanie Avalon: It does feel like that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but we did not just start.

 Melanie Avalon: We should go back and listen to our first episode. The elusive first episode that I don't think I even have it anymore. You should go listen to episode 2.

Gin Stephens: We've been doing this for four years.

Melanie Avalon: Four years? Wait, actually four years?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just over four years. We started in 2017.

Melanie Avalon: If we make it to five years, it'll be half a decade.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that crazy?

Gin Stephens: Yes. [laughs] Crazy. All right. Now my mind is blown. It just seemed like 30 years would be a lot more than that, but there's 52 weeks in a year. I multiply that by 30, and it was smaller than I was thinking. When I just randomly blurted out 10,000, but in 300 years when we get to episode 10,000. Yeah, we're not going to live that long, sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Sergey Young thinks that we might-- Yeah, he thinks immortality will be an option. Then, he thinks death will only occur from accidents, but those will be less common, because most of the accident things that we engage in today will have been taken care of like car crashes and stuff. Then, if you do die in an accident, you can be an avatar.

Gin Stephens: Now that's just gotten beyond me. I don't think I want to be an avatar and live forever. No, thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you don't have to if you don't want to. [laughs] And you also don't have to live forever. Oh, wait, sorry, last thing. He asked this question, it's so funny, because he had the same approach to it that I did. I might have asked you this before. I thought everybody would want to live forever. We've talked about this, right?

Gin Stephens: I don't know if we have.

Melanie Avalon: I always just assumed everybody would want to live forever. When I ask people, I feel most people I asked don't want to live forever.

Gin Stephens: Well, also what age people are you asking? Because you're a lot younger than me. Are you asking people my age? We're like over it. No, we're not over it. That's-- [laughs] But we already know we don't want to live forever. That's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: I probably mostly asking people your age. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: We love life. Life is fabulous. I love life.

Melanie Avalon: I feel I will perpetually-- I don't know, I guess we'll see.

Gin Stephens: I want to live for a long, long time, somewhere between a long time and forever, though, is the answer. [laughs] I do want to have a long, healthy life.

Melanie Avalon: Well, he talks about how three reasons people usually don't want to live forever. Then, when you dismantle them, maybe people do want to live forever. It's like people associate living forever with being decrepit, like being old and not being able to function, but that would not be the case. Then, people think that it's selfish or taxing to the environment if everybody lived forever. I haven't gotten to the chapter where he discusses that yet, but he says that's not a problem.

Gin Stephens: I have to admit, I did wonder about that, because if you live forever, then all the other generations grow up, and now they're all adults too. Now, we have all these adults, what do we do with all these adults? So many adults. Because everybody that's a child grows up, do you stop having children? And that would be sad because children are amazing. I love children. I think the answer is not a bunch of adults and never having children. Children are such a pleasure of life. I'm not just talking about your own children, but I'm loving watching my nieces grow up. One day, I'll have grandchildren and teaching children. All right, I'm thumbs down with immortality. No. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm curious, I’ll have to report back when I read that chapter. It's the only thing he said that he teased about it was he said that-- I didn't know this, did you know that--? Well, I don't know if I knew this. Our expansion rates are actually dropping.

Gin Stephens: I did know that. Yeah, I did know that.

Melanie Avalon: I think he said, like Japan and one other country are predicted to have, half of their population. I don't know what the timeline is on that.

Gin Stephens: I once read a statistic about that, that every man, woman, couple, whether you're married, whatever, needs to procreate at the rate of two point something-- clearly, we can't have point of a child, but that's the average. Two point something in order to continue to keep the species up because there's two of you, you have to reproduce by--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so once you fall below that, will that species actually eventually--?

Gin Stephens: Well, if the average fell to less than two for all of humans, though, just think about that. You're not reproducing at the rate that's enough to replace you when you die.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't get it exponential, though, again, because you have--?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, I can't remember. I just know that I read that.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Not if two people produce two people, that would not be exponential. Think about it. If every two people produced exactly two people, and then they die.

Melanie Avalon: But then those have two--

Gin Stephens: Well, those two people each have two people and then they die. You're not adding. All right, here's me and Chad, that's two of us. If we have two children, that's two more people, then we die, and we've made two people. Those two people marry somebody else that we did not create, but between them, no, it's not going to be exponential. It's only exponential if you create more people than you. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: If every two people created three people, now it's starting to get exponential.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Okay. I always spend too much time thinking about this.

Gin Stephens: I know it's like, “Ah.” [laughs] Well, anyway, my logic could be completely off, but it sounds perfectly reasonable to me right this minute.

Melanie Avalon: The other night I met with four friends. There were four combinations of a possibility of something that could happen. Each one of us was one of those combinations and the amount of time I spent later that night trying to figure out the odds of that, so if there were four possible options, and four people met, and each person is one of those four options-- I wish I'd still remembered math better, like permutations.

Gin Stephens: If you don't use it, you lose it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Good times.

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We have a question from Christine. The subject is “Inhalers.” “I have been reading your book, Fast. Feast. Repeat. As I am reading, I started thinking about my puffers for asthma, wondering if they affect my weight. I looked it up, and it can because they're steroids. Wondering if you can expand on this at all, or if you have in the past. Also wondering, when I do take the puffer, it is in the nighttime before I go to bed, will this take me out of my fast? I'm just starting to listen to all of your podcasts. Thank you, Christine.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, this is a great question from Christine. In general, steroids are usually [sighs] linked to weight gain. I've always thought that it's usually because mostly electrolyte issues, like they cause you to retain water, but they can also just in general affect hormones. It's possible that they can increase your appetite and make you gain weight that way, or actually even change where your body stores fat. Which connects to what we're talking about last time with is a calorie a calorie and how there's so many factors that go into weight loss and weight gain and medication, I think, is a hugely underappreciated piece of the puzzle for many people in that. Medication doesn't have calories, but taking certain medication can 100% change how your body is using and storing calories if you're gaining or losing weight. So, yes, steroids can cause weight gain, that could be a thing. As far as it actually breaking your fast, we don't consider medications breaking the fast. Fasting is about if you're eating or not eating, it's not about if you're taking something that changes how you're metabolizing energy, that's not breaking your fast if it's not food. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, just you know, that's one of the things we know about steroids, like Melanie said, they are linked to weight gain. That is a well-publicized, well-understood side effect. You have to take what you need to breathe. If you've got asthma, and you've got to use your inhaler for medication in order to breathe, you have to do it. Weight gain may be the side effect, but it's important to take that medication that you need.

Now, here's a plus, with intermittent fasting, you may find your asthma gets a lot better. I've actually heard this a lot. People who were asthmatics who required inhalers a lot prior to intermittent fasting get to the point where they no longer need them. Inflammation goes down. So, you may find you don't need to use your inhaler-- of course, talk to your doctor, don't just stop using it, make a plan and use it when you need to. Fingers crossed, maybe you won't need it for long.

Melanie Avalon: A few different books that I've read recently have actually had chapters on asthma, and linked asthma to whatever the subject of the book was, but in general, the subject of the books, they've been things like metabolic issues regarding like insulin sensitivity, or dietary approaches or things like that. A lot of people, like Gin just said, with fasting, find a lot of health conditions that they might not suspect would be affected by fasting actually get better, or even go into remission. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Oh, and I have an update, I looked it up because I was curious. The number is 2.1. The fertility rate needs to be 2.1 in order for the size of the population to remain stable. My logic was right. And just for a little bit of info here, in 1950, the average-- I just want you to guess. I'll do what you always do. How many children--?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love the guessing game.

Gin Stephens: No, I knew you did. All right, in 1950, guess what the average rate of how many children a woman would have in her lifetime was?

Melanie Avalon: Four.

Gin Stephens: It was 4.7

Melanie Avalon: 4.7?

Gin Stephens: Yep. 4.7. Of course, that's an average no one's having point seven of a child, but one person had four, someone else had five. Yeah, in 1950. I guess it's probably a worldwide stat putting it all together. Of course, it depends country to country. What will it be by 2100?

Melanie Avalon: By 2100. Okay, wait. you said it needs to be 2.1 for us to-- do I think that they think by 2100 that we will be stable or not? That is the question. Hmm. So, I think 2.1?

Gin Stephens: No, it was already 2.4 by 2017. So, they're predicting it will fall to 1.7 by 2100. This article--

Melanie Avalon: Ooh.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the researchers are predicting that the number of people on the planet will peak around 2064 and then begin to fall. Isn't that interesting?

Melanie Avalon: Unless Sergey Young is correct, in which case. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, then we got a different problem. [laughs] Will you change careers a bunch of times? You don't want to do the same job for 500 years, probably. By that time, you're really tired of your husband’s BS. I'm just going to tell you. 500 years later, you're like, “I didn't sign up for eternity, for 500 years.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I just won't get married, solve that problem.

Gin Stephens: That would change everything.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Another reason I don't want to. Just forever. What are you going to do for the next 100 years? How many jobs do you want to have? I guess maybe it would be a plus, you could try a lot of jobs. I could be an interior designer, like I wanted to be, and then I could do something else.

Melanie Avalon: I've never wanted to do anything else besides the stuff that I do.

Gin Stephens: Really, I have so many things I would like to do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Interesting. Got me thinking. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. A little bit of a long email but has two good questions. This is from Jen. The subject is “Everything is terrible. Berberine rebound. Hyperglycemia/gut microbiome changes?” It's a very descriptive subject. Jen says, “Hi, ladies. Number one, I did the ZOE test after hearing Gin talk about it. And much to my dismay, everything came back as “bad.” Bad blood sugar clearance, bad blood fat clearance, bad gut microbiome. I'm so disappointed. I was surprised because my fasting glucose is typically in the 70s to 80s. I eat a lot of different vegetables and take P3-OM. I eat an omnivorous diet where my main meal is usually pretty healthy focusing on whole foods. I still enjoy a smallish amount of processed junky stuff for my snacks, which I know I need to minimize for my gut microbiome and overall dietary inflammation. I've started my ZOE program, and notice that if I eat the exact same amount of the exact same foods in a day, but portion/time them differently, I can get a vastly different ZOE score.

For example, entering a mealtime to my usual one meal a day lifestyle where I'll have a large amount of fat, we will arbitrarily say 60 grams, in a short period of time will significantly lower my score. But if I have that exact same amount of fat, with the exact same foods, but spread out over a meal and a snack, spaced at least a few hours apart, where I have 40 grams and then 20 grams of fat later, my day score will be much higher. I get that's because of the impact of dietary inflammation from too much fat, especially with my slow fat clearance. Does this mean one meal a day really is not the IF lifestyle for me? Do you think my one meal a day lifestyle is making this worse, since I eat one large meal a day, plus some smaller snacks that basically dump all my macronutrients in a short period of time? Should I do two really small meals spaced apart to give my sluggish blood sugar and fat clearance time to move things out? This will really cut down my daily fasting hours and I'd hate to miss out on all the health benefits of a longer fast. But if one meal a day creates too much of an inflammatory blood fat burden on me, I suppose that could negate the benefits of a longer fast and the first place?”

She tells us a little bit about her. She says she's been doing one meal a day with clean fasting for a little over a year, “Usually 20 to 24 hours fasting with around a three-hour eating window. Sometimes 18-hour fast on the weekends, I usually still do 40- to 44-hour fast once a week followed by an up day. My fasting glucose is usually 70s to 80s. HbA1c is in the low 5. My cholesterol and triglycerides are excellent, blood pressure is good, normal BMI.” Despite her garbage gut microbiome, she can eat anything comfortably, really loves doing one meal a day and feels great on it. When she did two smaller comparison meals, when she was doing the ZOE test, she felt hungry and unsatisfied. Maybe there's a lot of dietary inflammation going on inside. She says, “I don't know because my blood sugar and fat clearance.” This is a really good question.

Gin Stephens: It is, and keep in mind we are not ZOE researchers. [laughs] I'm a consumer of the ZOE program. I'm not involved in the science of it or running it. I'm just someone who used it and shared about it. I have talked to them, of course, because I'm such a fan, because it's such good cutting-edge science. We're actually part of the science here. They're using the information they're getting from us. They're continuing to add to the research and learn more about people. That's what's really exciting here. Jen, this is J-E-N, by the way, so I imagine you're Jennifer. Jen, I got the same as you, except my gut microbiome wasn't bad. It wasn't ideal. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad. I did have slow blood sugar clearance. Instead of calling it bad, let's just call it slow.

Melanie Avalon: Can I ask a quick question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Do you take the muffins and then later do your food as well, and it determines your blood sugar clearance based on your CGM only?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't know what their algorithm is for calculating your blood sugar clearance. No. You enter when you eat the muffins, but you also take a blood sample afterwards. I don't know what they're used. I mean, I can't answer that, because I don't know. They do have your CGM data, obviously. You also have a blood sample that you send them within a period of time after having the muffins, so they might be using the blood sample, not the CGM. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: My question is, I'm just trying to get a sense of the program. Is it like you do the muffins, do the blood sample, do the CGM, and then when you're starting the ZOE program-- because you get scores, is it still monitoring your CGM? Or do you just put them in?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you just put the meals in the app and it gives you a score. It's not like looking--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, later. Later, once you've sent everything in, you send the CGM back, and they take all of your data. They have these predictive algorithms that they use, and they put-- and so everyone has different numbers. Some of the moderators for my community have done it. We've compared back in discussions, like this is what chickpeas are for me, this is what happens to avocado. I mean, we all have different numbers. Legit, every person is going to have something different than the other people. But it's all based on everything put into this predictive algorithm based on your blood sugar clearance, your blood fat clearance, and what happens with your CGM, and what you have in your gut microbiome based on the species that they find in your gut microbiome and what makes the good guys thrive, or what would make the bad guys thrive. They want you to avoid things that would feed the negative inhabitants of your gut microbiome, and they encourage you to eat the things that are linked to nurturing the good gut microbiome and then, whether your body handles the fat well.

I have slow blood fat clearance, I also had slow blood sugar clearance. Jen, I think this is amazing data because, think about this, when I wrote Delay, Don't Deny, this research hadn't started yet, research they're doing now. 2017 was the first time I ever heard of people having a different blood glucose response, that science was just being reported in 2017 with that TED Talk with Eran Segal, and the whole idea of Personalized Nutrition. All of this is unfolding right now. We're learning that, “Hey, we don't all process the food the same way.” Actually, Jen, 100%, yes, if our bodies process this energy slowly, then maybe we do need a longer eating window because if you think about what we've talked about with Marty Kendall, he talks about energy toxicity. When we have too much energy building up in our bloodstream, that's not good. He talks about that with, he has blog posts about it, in any kind of energy, whether it's too much fat, too much blood glucose, or even too many ketones building up. Energy toxicity, according to Marty, and he explains this very well in his writing, is when you have too much energy in your blood, that is not what we want.

That being said, you may find that take that same exact amount of food just like ZOE is prompting you to spread it out, spread it out. ZOE didn't tell you what to eat. Specifically, you still get to decide what to eat, but think about how you're shifting it around. Also, alternatively, maybe you're talking about having 60 grams of fat, maybe your body would do better with less fat, you can also change what you're eating based on the fact that that might not be good for your body. Like for me, if I eat too much fat, it does feel inflammatory for me. When I did keto and I felt so bad. In order to feel my best, I do feel better when I add less fat to my meals, if I overdo it and have too much fat, I feel a little puffy, I really can tell the difference. Knowledge is power. We're learning things about our bodies that 10 years ago, no one could have told you. Instead of being like upset-- because I get it, I'm bummed that my body has bad blood fat clearance or slow-- Let's use the word slow, not bad. Slow blood fat clearance and slow blood sugar clearance, I wish that were not the case, but it's the body I have.

In order to have the best outcome for me, if I want to focus on what I'm eating, I can choose whole foods, slightly less fat. You don't have to have zero because you're talking about-- if you have 40 grams of fat, and then 20 grams of fat later, that's still a lot of fat. The low-fat people who are like strictly low fat would not be having 60 grams of fat in a day. So, 60 grams of fat is not destined to not have fat, you're still having fat and your food can still be delicious. But just spreading it out a little bit might be better for your body. That's what their science is telling them. That's why they're making these recommendations.

One thing about them that's interesting, a lot of people may not know this, I've got some friends that went through it way earlier than I did, like a whole year before I did. I didn't have time, I was working on Fast. Feast. Repeat. I didn't have time to fool with it at that time. I was like, “I'll just come back to it later,” and I did. But they changed the app recommendations right in the middle of while all my friends that did it before me were in the middle of trying to create their meals. They had rerun data, they had new data, and it changed the recommendations. They're like, “What? The recommendations are different.” They are genuinely responding to what they're learning. They are changing and making changes to the recommendations as they get more data. They didn't just get some data, and now they're just going on that old data. It's new and updated. Am I explaining this well, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Gin Stephens: It's responding to what they're learning. As they gather more data from more participants, they're refining everything about the process. This is ongoing scientific research. I bet in three years, we'll know more than we know now. I know that's true. Don't be bummed about it. Even though I know that you asked a lot of questions about, does that mean I shouldn't fast as long? Well, you could still fast as long as if you tweaked what you were eating a little bit, or just have a slightly longer eating window. I really don't think there's a giant difference. Think about it, if you're having the exact same amount of food, you're calling it one meal a day, you're eating it in a short period of time, versus if you spread it out a few hours apart, I don't think you're going to have a vastly different fasting experience. Does that make sense, Melanie? Because that's really how I do it anyway. My one meal a day is not like an hour. What I eat is spaced out over a few hours. Don't feel you're not going to get in the health benefits of fasting if you have to eat for a five-hour window. That's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Quick side note question, because you mentioned it. You recorded with Marty Kendall yesterday, right?

Gin Stephens: He streamed it in his Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon: Did he ask you any questions from me?

Gin Stephens: Yes, he did.

Melanie Avalon: Because he messaged me and was like, “What questions do I ask Gin that the audience might like to hear?” What did he ask you?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. We talked for about so many things, I can't remember which ones were you. Also, it was like 6 PM, and I hadn't eaten yet, so I was like, “I'm ready to have some food now.” [laughs] I had a 24-hour fast yesterday, I don't usually, but we had such a fun conversation. I love Marty Kendall. He's great. The whole idea of really what ZOE is telling us from the results of our clearance is the same thing Marty is saying. You don't want to have too much energy building up in your bloodstream. We're learning that.

Melanie Avalon: Question again about the muffins, and I would like to try this out. They never answered the email that you sent. Is there a low carb muffin test at all or no?

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] You're not going to like these muffins. They're full of yucky stuff. They're not high quality, like artisanal muffins. [laughs] It's funky fat.

Melanie Avalon: So, you're eating fat in the context of carbs, and it's testing your fat clearance?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, these are not the muffins that you would eat. It's only just that one period of time and it's short, and then you're done with it.

Melanie Avalon: The thing I'm trying to focus on is, it doesn't test fat clearance in the context of a low carb situation, it sounds like. It only tests fat clearance in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Of their experiment. It only tests what they are testing. It's based on just that one variable. They have one variable and here's the muffin. You're the variable, I guess. The muffin is not a variable, muffin is controlled. What your body does with it, is what they're trying to see. Same muffin for everybody.

Melanie Avalon: Again, I haven't done ZOE. So, I can't comment specifically, but just what I'm hearing, it sounds like it's testing the concern that I've had, that I talked about on the show for, I mean, maybe since day one, which is--

Gin Stephens: Fats and carbs together?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I haven't done ZOE, but that's why I personally eat to address that. I eat to address that in a way that actually allows liberal amounts of fat if I so desire. That's why I was asking about if they do a low carb thing, because it sounds like they're testing fat clearance in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Well, there's two different kinds of muffins. Did you know that?

Melanie Avalon: That you get?

Gin Stephens: You do a high fat muffin, and then you do a higher sugar muffin.

Melanie Avalon: Does the high fat muffin have carbs in it, though?

Gin Stephens: Yes, neither is low of what you would consider-- Neither muffin would be what you would consider low fat or low sugar, but it's lower than the other one. Like the one that's high fat, obviously has a higher proportion of fat, but it still has the carbs. The one that is the higher sugary muffin still has fat in it. It's just a lower proportion. They change the proportion of the ingredients that you're having.

Melanie Avalon: My curiosity there is, for people that it brands as poor fat clearers, it sounds like we don't know if they are poor fat clearers in the context of a ketogenic diet. Just that they are in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Well, that would be a different study.

Melanie Avalon: Right. The reason I'm drawing attention to that is, I'm a little bit concerned, if they get labeled as a bad fat clearer, it might just be that-- again, I'm speaking from a very uninformed position, and that I don't know of the technicalities of what they're testing and everything, but it sounds like people might be bad fat clearers in a carb context, which is what they're testing. I don't know if that always translates to bad fat clearers in the ketogenic state. I'm just thinking right now, like, I hadn't pre-thought about this, the ironic thing is those that are bad fat clearers, if they like fat, they might actually respond better to a low carb, higher fat diet, because that would make it easier to clear fat.

Gin Stephens: I'm not following that. I don't know. Okay, I felt awful on low carb. I felt inflamed and came back as a poor fat clearer, unsurprisingly. I don't feel like having a really high fat diet made me feel great. It didn't.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of people who do really well on low carb, it's often because they don't do well on carbs. One of the reasons they don't do well on carbs might be because they're poor fat clearers in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, that's certainly a possibility, but that would be a whole different experiment, it would be interesting.

Melanie Avalon: What I'm trying to say is, I don't think that means that you can't have fats. I think a lot of people might extrapolate from that, that they need to be on a low-fat diet accordingly, or that they need to watch their fats because they're not good at clearing fats. An alternative that ZOE, I don't think is going to recommend, based on what I know about it. An alternative might actually be a low carb diet, and then you could have more fats. If you're a bad fat, clear, there are two ways you can go. It's the way that I actually live my life, which is not combining fats and carbs. I anticipate-- I don't know if I'm a bad fat clearer, but I feel like I am. That's why I eat my one meal a day, but I do either low fat, or low carb. I don't combine the two. Basically, just like if it says you're a bad fat clearer, I think there might actually be multiple ways that you could use that data. Like for Gin, if she does want to have a lot of fat, I love what she said and what Gin was saying about spreading it out over a long amount of time or maybe trying fat in the context of a low carb diet.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel you just don't know that though. When you say that, someone who's a bad fat clearer because they're having the muffin, because it has carbs in it too, but it was the carbs that made them be a bad fat clearer, so just have a lot of fat, and not carbs and you'll be fine. I don't think that's what we can just jump to that, that that's the answer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, 100%. We also can't make the other assumption that they're a bad fat clearer just by the fact. We don't know.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think most people, and I know that that might be hard for you, or maybe some people in the audience to realize, most people eat fats and carbs together all the time.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. That's not hard for me to realize.

Gin Stephens: Right. Most people are not low carb or low fat. They're eating food together. ZOE is targeting people who are eating like the normal context of food. Most people eat things that are combined. They give us food that's combined and they're testing the combined foods, instead of isolating because they're not trying to limit macros. Even for me with my slower fat clearance, ZOE doesn't recommend that I go low fat. I just need to be a little more mindful with how I'm having it and not compressing it, because she's exactly right. If I have too much fat in a short window, my score goes down. Again, they're also not trying to make you keep your score to any certain thing. It's just we tend to gamify things like that. It's like, “Well, if I can get a score, I want to get 100. I don't want to get a 60.” It's just teaching you what pattern might be better for your body, and then you design your life accordingly. If that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: 100%, I realize most people eat mixed macro situations with what they're testing-- and this is why I would love to interview them. I'm going to follow up on that email.

Gin Stephens: Yes, they are testing a mixed macro situation, because that is how the majority of people are eating.

Melanie Avalon: Which is why I was saying with the fasting, I think a solution for a lot of people, even though the majority of the population eats mix macros, a lot of people in the health sphere do play with macros, specifically. I think there are a lot of potential solutions if it says that you're a bad fat clearer. There's spreading it out and seeing how that makes you feel, then there's playing with the macros, so doing--

Gin Stephens: And that is what they recommend. They recommend spreading it out, because then you're clearing, you have time to clear it. That's the whole point of it because you put in your meal and the time that you eat it, so it predicts based on the data they have on you, how long it will take for you to clear it.

Melanie Avalon: I wish they would do a low carb muffin too. I wonder how that would change things.

Gin Stephens: That would be a whole different study, right?

Melanie Avalon: They could still. I wish they would do it as maybe a two-day thing where you do-- or just another arm of the study. It's like another part of the testing protocol that you do, because it would seem that you would want to know how you clear fat in the context of just fat. A lot of people have been talking about it in my Facebook group, their thoughts and everything. People seem to really, really like the gut microbiome findings because you tested-- don’t you do a stool sample as well?

Gin Stephens: Yes, you do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so people who have sent in that, say that's great. I want to do it for that like are really, really do want to do it and figuring out your gut microbiome and all of that. Then, people love hearing about the fat clearance as well. People seem to say that, in general, it seems to recommend lower fat, regardless, perhaps it's based more on the foods that they think support the microbiome.

Gin Stephens: Probably so, you have to know that is his foundation. That is Tim Spector’s foundation. If you ask a plumber to come over, he's going to do plumbing stuff. If you ask a gut researcher to do something, he's going to spin it towards the gut, because he knows the health of the gut, and what nourishes your gut. That's what he's focusing on. It shouldn't surprise people. When people get those results back, you're getting gut researcher recommendations on what that gut researcher based on research believes will feed your gut the best and it might not be what a diet book that you read, recommending carnivore said to eat. I'm just throwing that out as an example. A gut researcher is looking at the gut, and what is going to make that thrive. Whereas somebody who's writing a book about keto maybe just focusing on what your blood sugar levels are doing or something, I don't know. People focus on different parts of what our bodies are doing. Of course, we're not doing anything in isolation. That's the thing. We're not just our gut. We're not just our blood sugar response. It's all of it together.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100%.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell about one of our favorite companies. I'm sure you've heard us talk about a supplement called Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers and we've been blown away by what listeners have shared with us about it. Anya said, “I love Magnesium Breakthrough. I sleep so well and feel well rested in the morning. It also helps me feel less crabby. I love it so much. It's a nonnegotiable. It's on auto-ship.” Sandra said, “I can work out and muscles are not as sore.” Damon said, “It has helped me with my PTSD. I no longer take medication to help me sleep through the night.” Crystal said, “I have way fewer muscle cramps, less eye twitching and definitely more regular in the bathroom department.” Joan said, “Where do I start? Better sleep, better recovery from strength training. No more leg cramps. I just feel better in general.” Betsy said, “Game changer. Magnesium Breakthrough is the only magnesium supplement that improved my motility, calms my nerves and anxiety, helps me sleep without sleep meds, and got rid of my restless legs. It's the only supplement that I never forget to take. I purchased six plus bottles at a time. I will never quit buying it. I take two capsules every night and recommend it to anyone who will listen.” That's just a few of them.

If you have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep, muscle cramps, bathroom issues or you experience stress, one of the best things you can possibly do is start getting enough magnesium. While most magnesium supplements use the two cheapest synthetic forms, Magnesium Breakthrough contains all seven organic, unique forms of magnesium, so you can experience all its calming, sleep-enhancing effects.

For an exclusive offer for our listeners, go to www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast, and use the code IFPODCAST10 during checkout to save 10%. That's magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST10 to save 10%.

Melanie Avalon: She has one more question. She says, “I've also been wearing a CGM since I finished the ZOE test because I love the data that it gave. I used Melanie’s discount for NutriSense.” Thank you. “Anyway, I've been experimenting with berberine, also after hearing Melanie talk about it. Melanie, you are an influencer, even though you don't think you are. Admittedly, sometimes to see what I can “get away” with during my eating window,” with a little like emoji, that's like, ugh, I don't know what you call that emoji. What would you call that emoji?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Grimacing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was thinking grimacing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. She says, “I take only 500 milligrams of Thorne Berberine 500 once a day, about 30 minutes before my meal, I take it only on days I eat a lot of carbs. It definitely blunts my glucose response, but sometimes I noticed around three to six hours later, I'll have a big spike or two up to 140s to 150s. Is this because the berberine can only suppress the spike for so long? It looks like the half-life is around five hours, but I would have already finished eating a couple hours prior. I don't want to take another dose because I don't want to risk hypoglycemia. How long should it be taken? I read it has antimicrobial properties, which I imagine would worsen my gut microbiome. Any thoughts on the new blood sugar breakthrough from BioOptimizers? Or pendulum probiotics? Thank you, ladies.”

Gin Stephens: Now that is totally a Melanie question. I'm going to defer to you.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, “Gin, do you want me to take this one?”

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, I don't even want to answer that. I don't know what berberine is doing in your body.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I'll put a link in the show notes to two things to the discount for NutriSense, if you'd like to get a CGM. I have a code for 15% off. I think it's melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm with the coupon, MELANIEAVALON, I think. Either way, we'll put it in the show notes. Second thing, I'll put a link to the interview that I did with Shawn Wells. He's really big in the supplement world. We had a very long conversation about berberine. I am a huge fan of berberine. It has been shown to basically rival the beneficial health effects of metformin, which is a pharmaceutical, and it lowers blood sugar pretty consistently. When I've worn a CGM, I've seen that it can do really great things for my blood sugar levels. It's debated about how it works, probably it reduces actual glucose absorption in the GI tract. Then also, it might be that it actually downregulates the liver’s production of glucose, so downregulating gluconeogenesis in the liver.

As far as she's taking it and she's seeing that it reduces, but then she has a big spike later. I don't know, it could be that the berberine is-- because she talks about the half-life, it could be that it is wanting that initial spike, but then there's still glucose absorbing later on. Could be that it only has an immediate effect for you in the liver. I don't know. But it sounds like it is “petering out” in a way. In any case, I would encourage you not to take it for-- because she said she basically takes it to see what she can “get away” with. I think it's a little bit of a dangerous path. I feel a lot of people do this with metformin and diabetic medications and insulin even, basically relying on those to mitigate the potential blood sugar issues from the diet. I would just encourage you to maybe occasionally but try not to make that a habit because we don't want to be relying on something like berberine to undo potentially dangerous blood sugar spikes. Also, because she said how long can it be taken? There's a lot of debate out there about taking it long term versus not. People have been talking about this a lot in my Facebook group. My Facebook group, by the way, is IF Biohackers, so I've been taking it for months now and I'm probably going to keep taking it and I know some people think-- like Shawn is a fan of taking it every day, basically for life, but I'm not a doctor. I don't know.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that we know. I mean, we don't have data of someone who takes berberine every day for years. We don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I guess we know people will take Metformin every day for years, and it seems like it has the benefits of Metformin without the potential negative side effects. But yeah, I can't really speak to it, but I feel like Gin is probably spot on with what is happening as far as it's blunting it in the beginning and then not so much later. I actually haven't tried Blood Sugar Breakthrough by BiOptimizers, people have posted in the group about it and love it, so I definitely need to try it. I have no idea what Pendulum probiotics are, so I can't comment.

Gin Stephens: What's Blood Sugar Breakthrough supposed to do? It's sort of like berberine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it’s sort of berberine, it's supposed to lower blood sugar levels. I think it's like berberine, cinnamon, it's like all these different things. It has a few different ingredients. It has propolis, bitter melon, Tibetan holy fruit extract, gluco advantage. Okay, so this is actually dihydroberberine. Okay, if it contains glucose advantage, I think that's Shawn Wells’ is, I think he patented that. I could be incorrect. I think Shawn did that. It has dihydroberberine which is much more potent form of berberine has cinnulin, has ALA, alpha-lipoic acid, [unintelligible [01:06:19], benfotiamine, glucofit, which is a patented banaba leaf extract, has [unintelligible [01:06:27] I can't even pronounce, fucoxanthin. Yeah, okay. So, it's got a lot of stuff in it. Basically, it's stuff to lower resting blood sugar levels. You could try that, or you could just start with berberine. Okay, that was a lot.

Gin Stephens: That was a lot.

Melanie Avalon: This has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go, you'll definitely want to check out the show notes for today's show because we talked about a lot and there will be a full transcript there and show notes and links to everything that we talked about that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode217. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 23

Episode 214: Gallbladder Resources, Body Odor, Your Body’s Microbiome, Cardio, Bingeing, Intuitive Eating, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 214 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Get The BBQ Bundle! For A Limited Time New Members Can Get 2 New York Strip Steaks, 5 Lbs Of Chicken Drumsticks, And 6 Burgers All For FREE At butcherbox.com/ifpodcast!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: get the bBQ bundle! for a limited time new members can get 2 New York Strip Steaks, 5 Lbs Of Chicken Drumsticks, And 6 Burgers All For FREE At butcherbox.com/ifpodcast!

The Science, Nutrition, And Health Implications Of Conventional Vs. Sustainable, Grass-fed, Pastured, And Wild Meat And Seafood, Featuring My Honest Butcher Box Review!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Listener Feedback: Nelly - Life Saving!

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Listener Feedback: Amanda - Gallstones information

Save Your Gallbladder Naturally and What to Do If You Have Already Lost It (Sandra Cabot)

Listener Q&A: Mandy - Body Odor

NATIVE: Use The Link nativedeodorant.com With The Code IFPodcast20 For 20% Off Your First Purchase!

Listener Q&A: Carre - How to stop Binging

Never Binge Again: How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice! (Glenn Livingston Ph.D)

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #45: Glenn Livingston, Ph. D.

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #68 - Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

Listener Q&A: Joshi - Clean Fast Question

Atmiko Tongue Scraper, Ayurvedic Tongue Cleaner (Pack of 2)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 214 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment., pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get two the grass-fed New York strip steaks, five pounds of free-range organic chicken drumsticks, and six grass-fed burgers all for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. 

When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone, that includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency, regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. 

All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished, that's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves, but the planet, this is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency for quality and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal. it's so easy, everything ships directly to your door. 

I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought this is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? Their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find?

For a limited time ButcherBox has an amazing offer just for our audience. New members can actually get a free BBQ bundle in their first box, that includes two grass-fed New York strip steaks, five pounds of free-range organic chicken drumsticks, and six grass-fed burgers, all for free in your first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to get your free barbecue bundle. I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. 

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter. People share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. Again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 214 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: And this will not be applicable when this airs, Gin, but Happy Mother's Day.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Are you doing anything for it?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, not specifically. One son's in California. Will was actually in Savannah yesterday, but they all remembered me and sent me things and made sure I had little something. [laughs] It's really nice now that they're grown up because they're boys. Boys are not like girls, I think, when it comes to celebrating your mother, but [laughs] anyway.

Melanie Avalon: My brother-- my mom's in Florida right now, and he randomly just flew down to surprise her. It's such a nice thing.

Gin Stephens: That's really nice. I woke up with a potted plant on the doorstep with no card or anything, and I was like, “Where did this come from?” Because Will’s in Savannah. He's had a friend deliver it overnight, [laughs] which is really funny. 

Melanie Avalon: He had a friend--? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, deliver it. A friend delivered it. Yeah, I thought that was fun. He was thinking of me. Anyway, can I just celebrate with you that my life is back to normal?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I was going to say congratulations. 

Gin Stephens: It's actually better than normal. I mean, I feel like I've got a whole like freedom. I submitted my book two days ago. I had my delayed due date. It's my own fault that I couldn't get it done because I did all these new projects in between. I mean started the Delay Don't Deny Social Network, left Facebook, which did free up some time not being on Facebook, but starting a new business takes a lot of time. I haven't really talked about it. Actually, no, I haven't. Everyone knew I was at the beach. I spent like, over half of April at the beach. I figured it out.

Melanie Avalon: Where are you at in your book process? 

Gin Stephens: Well, the book is turned in? 

Melanie Avalon: Is it completely 100%? Like you are completely done? Like will it be anything else?

Gin Stephens: No, I'm done, this is the way the process worked with my editor anyway, because I know probably every editor is different, but it was originally due March 31st. Then I made all these bad decisions like starting the social network and buying a new beach cottage that needed my attention. I begged for a little more time. So, I got until May 7. I left the beach and then I had one week to finish it. I was really almost done because I'd been working like night and day whenever I had a moment like I've been working nonstop on something, since January 1st, really, I've been working really hard. I am completely done with the first part. I've revised it, I've reread the whole thing. It all flows, it makes sense. I've edited for-- I'm sure they'll still be typos, there always are, they'll find them, But now, it's time for the editorial review, so it should be like we need to fix this part or this part sounds weird, that's the part we’re at. Where she's going to then send me notes of things that she wants me to tweak. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah, that's what I was wondering about, like the tweaking if there was going to be more of that. 

Gin Stephens: Well, there's always tweaking because this is just the first raw draft to her, but I feel really good about it. Yeah, I spent the entire day on Friday, just combing through it and reading it nonstop, and the wording, still though, as a writer. If you read What When Wine right this minute, you would say, “Ooh, I should reword that.” Because you never are done. You're never done. You're like, “Oh, I wish I'd have said that little bit differently.” Sometimes, it takes another person to read it to be like, “I don't even know what this means.” Like, “Well, I know what it meant,” but-- [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny.

Gin Stephens: It is. Anyway, I feel just like I went to Lowe's with Chad this morning. [laughs] I had time to do that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you have your life back. 

Gin Stephens: I'm like, “Look, this is the world. I'm in it.” Yeah. It really feels like I have my life back. Since I'm not on Facebook, that took a whole lot of time. The Delay Don’t Deny Social Network is amazing. I'm not spending hours and hours and hours on it every day. 

Melanie Avalon: Right. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Life is good. Anything new with you?

Melanie Avalon: Just plugging away. I'm really upset I can't find-- for listeners, before we started recording, I spent like 20 minutes trying to find a study I wanted to talk about, I'm really shocked that it can't find it. I wanted to talk about it so bad. Basically, I randomly saw a study. I don't know what made me search for it in the first place. It was comparing obese patients-- I don't know if they're overweight or obese, this is why it would help if I could find it. Regardless, they're definitely overweight, they were on either low carb or low-fat calorie restricted diets. It compared their weight loss. It was shocking. They looked at their like baseline level of insulin sensitivity or insulin resistance. The patients that were insulin sensitive lost about twice the amount of weight on a low-fat diet, high-carb diet. The people who were insulin resistant lost like twice the amount of weight on a low-carb, high-fat diet.

Gin Stephens: That's amazing. Again, everybody, it's not we're all right and you're all wrong for the diet people. It's we're all different, and it has to do with so many different factors. It's funny when you read something written from someone who's a low-carb proponent, trashing the low-fat era, or the low-fat people trashing the low-carb, high-fat movement. I know for me personally, Gin Stephens, I lost weight, eating low fat, and got really, really thin, and I never once lost weight on low carb. That is 100%, anecdotal, that's me, that's my experience. I'm not making it up. That is the truth.

Melanie Avalon: You know what that would suggest just based on that study would be that you're probably insulin sensitive, because the patients that who are insulin sensitive lost more on the high-carb, low-fat diet? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I absolutely did. I was the skinniest in my adult life when I was doing that, honestly. I mean, I was like, early 20s but low carb never did a thing for me. I tried really hard to make low carb work for me, because the science is so compelling and the way it's explained. I believe that probably for a lot of bodies, that's exactly what happens, but my body, no, that didn't lead to fat loss for me, magically, anyway. I wasn't fasting with either of them. Just to make it clear. When I did low fat, I was not fasting. When I did low carb, I was not fasting. Those were pre-fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I wish people could just understand this. I post an Instagram video yesterday. It's all the random little dietary myths that people think. People think more ketones is always better or ketones mean you're definitely burning body fat or fat doesn't easily-

Gin Stephens: Get stored as fat.

Melanie Avalon: -become fat. [laughs] Well, if I find that study, I will put it in the show notes. Yeah, that's really, really fascinating.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait to read that one. I want to read it when you find it. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't know why I can't find it. Oh, one other exciting thing. Yesterday was the Bulletproof Conference, the Biohacking Virtual Conference.

Gin Stephens: Oh, how did that go?

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I did Dave Asprey’s Virtual Biohacking Conference that he has every year. He had it this year, and InsideTracker was one of the speakers and they invited me to be a speaker with them. I told Gin this already, but I got really excited because I didn't think that they were going to actually put me on the website. I thought I was going to just be in the video, but they actually listed me as a speaker for the conference and put my bio and put me in the lineup. It was very, very surreal. I don't like watching myself. I hadn't seen the video, but I sort of briefly watched it, like squinted my eyes and made sure it looked okay. Yeah, I think it went really well.

Gin Stephens: See, that is so weird since you're an actress. I can't believe an actress who doesn't like to watch herself.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it's a common thing, though. Maybe? I don't know. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm a podcaster who don’t like to listen to yourself. 

Melanie Avalon: See, yeah. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: But when I do, I'm always like, “Hey, I don't sound that dumb.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't know how common it is.

Gin Stephens: Not that I would think I'd come across sounding dumb. I mean, like sounding weird. You know what I mean. Like when you hear your own voice you think you sound weird.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about that because growing up I used to not like my voice at all, but I don't mind it now. I think probably because I've done so much listening to it all the time. Exposure effect. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I bet so. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, well. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have some listener feedback. The first thing comes from Nellie, the subject is “Life saving.” Nellie says, “Hello, ladies. I don't have a question I wanted to take the time to say thank you. I found your podcast in January of 2019, and I've been hooked on listening to you both every week and I've read all your books, I have lost 60 pounds and I'm still losing even through this pandemic and starting menopause. I really cannot thank you both enough for what you have done to change my life. I have struggled with my weight all my life and I now have such a better relationship with food. I will never go back to my old way of unhealthy eating and counting every single calorie that enters my mouth. What a freeing and liberating feeling that is. 

So many people were so discouraging at the beginning. Still, I kept on because honestly, I was feeling so good, and the best feeling is when they see me now looking amazing in my skinny jeans with a healthy glow to my face looking younger than I should. I played it forward and passed on your books and podcast to my sister and sister-in-law, and they are both also doing AMAZING.” That was an all caps. She says, “Also because of you, Gin, I no longer suffer from horrible night sweats as I now can contribute them to, yep, sadly, the wine,” frowny face.

Gin Stephens: I know I'm frowning too.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] She says I don't believe I would have made that connection if I hadn't been following your podcast. It has opened my eyes to a better way of life, and I am truly eternally grateful to both of you. Wishing you both continued success. Nellie, from Canada.”

Gin Stephens: Well, awesome. Yeah. last night, I drank a glass of wine. Not a huge glass, but we've been kind of celebrating here all week. Well since Friday when I turned my book in. We were playing cards and Chad's said, “Let me open a bottle of wine.” So, I had a small glass of red wine, night sweats tossed and turned. I told him, “If you ever see me drinking red wine again, slap it out of my hand.”

Melanie Avalon: I normally drink Dry Farm Wines every night. I'm really good with it, I sleep well. My Oura ring says I sleep well. If I don't have Dry Farm Wines, like last night I went out, it was still organic, biodynamic wine at the restaurant, but I had that. 

Gin Stephens: Well, mine wine is Dry Farm. We had Dry Farm because I bought Dry Farm red for Chad. We have like a stash of it for him because he drinks a glass of wine with dinner frequently, like very frequently. Sometimes, I'm like, “I want to drink a glass of wine too.” But it really affects my sleep to the point that-- I mean even the Dry Farm Wine, I think it's the menopause. Nellie said that that's what she's noticing as well. I remember when I brought it up, when I was first trying to make the connection, how many women-- it was in one of the Facebook groups said, “Yep, that happened to me with menopause.” Our bodies change in so many ways. Hormones are powerful and I didn't use to. When I wrote Delay, Don’t Deny, I literally was having a glass of prosecco every night with dinner, and it was not Dry Farm wines. It was a Costco brand, their prosecco, their house brand, and I was fine. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of factors. 

Gin Stephens: As you get older, your life is going to be different. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I had a lot of wine last night. 

Gin Stephens: You had a lot of wine?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It's so funny and fascinating to me how much my Oura ring knows. It's like it doesn't let you get away with anything, like it knows.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh. So, you slept badly after not having Dry Farm Wine? 

Melanie Avalon: I wake up and your Oura ring every morning gives you your readiness score and your sleep score. So, your sleep score is how well you slept, and then your readiness score, it takes into account how well you slept as well as your heart rate variability and your body temperature and all these things. It tells you how ready you are for the day and if you should rest or if you should relax. It's funny, I wake up and I'm like, I wonder if it's going to know.” And it knows.

Gin Stephens: Sheri Bullock, co-host Life Lessons with me. She has an Oura ring and she loves hers. Same thing she's noticed a huge difference. In certain things that she drinks affects her more. Like beer, she has a beer, doesn't affect our sleep as much, which is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Does not affect her. That's interesting.

Gin Stephens: Not as much, no.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I normally have probably half a glass or glass of Dry Farm Wines every night. I do really well with my sleep and readiness scores, but if I have too much, then--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I had a very small serving. It was not a full glass. It was a small glass, and it was probably the equivalent of half a glass to three fourths of one glass.

Melanie Avalon: Regardless, if friends would like Dry Farm Wines--

Gin Stephens: I highly recommend it. Chad drinks it, I buy it for him, and I also had their sparkling and they're white and every now and then, I'll have some of that. That doesn't affect me as badly. Something about that read.

Melanie Avalon: It makes such a difference for me. Our link for it is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and that gets you bottle for a penny, and this will be over, but right now they have a special rosé collection for Mother's Day. Do you like rosés?

Gin Stephens: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: I don't really either that much. 

Gin Stephens: No, I always wanted to, because they look so fun and everyone is always so excited about drinking them. When I was at the beach, getting the house ready, some of my college friends came to celebrate with me and we stayed there and we were at a little wine tasting. I was driving, so all I did was literally taste. They had a rosé and they're like, “We love it.” It was a sparkling Rosé and they all bought it, and I'm like, “Ugh, no.” [laughs] But they all literally loved it. They loved it. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: We agree on something.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we do. We do. We agree on a lot of things. Not usually what you're eating or drinking though. [laughs] 

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Gin Stephens: All right. We have something from Amanda. It's feedback and the subject is “Gallstones Information.” She says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. Thank you for your podcast, I always learn something. I have been managing gallstones for over 20 years now, with at most one or two attacks a year and have recently started IF with great success. I'm on the way back to great health. Since starting IF, I have only had one mild attack and it was during the very earliest days. When I'm experiencing pain, I remove fats temporarily. Fats generate contractions of the gallbladder, which equals pain, and increase my intake of acids, especially lemon, which gives your liver what it needs to generate more bile. After 48 hours, I gently reintroduced fats and coffee, another contraction generator, and this seems to work well for me. 

I write to you because Melanie was saying she didn't know where to go for gallstone information. I got all of my best info from Dr. Sandra Cabot who wrote a book about healing the liver and the gallbladder with nutrition. I hope this is helpful. Much love. Amanda, from Victoria, Australia.” Thank you, Amanda, that is very helpful to hear from someone who suffers from gallbladder issues. Also, that she has been managing it for over 20 years and IF did not make it worse.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's absolutely amazing. We'll put a link in the show notes to that book. People might find that really helpful. Yeah, it was really nice to get back some feedback from somebody who specifically experienced this and had the effects with IF. Do people ask about that a lot still, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, not really, no. Sometimes, people will pop in and say, “I heard intermittent fasting is bad for your gallbladder.” Then we have to answer that, just like the question we had, I think started the whole thing. Again, like I said, what we don't hear a lot of is people who are like, “I've never had gallbladder problems before. Now, all of a sudden, I am.” I feel like we would, I feel in the groups with half a million people in Facebook before I left Facebook, I think we would have heard that a lot and we didn't.

Melanie Avalon: People really want like randomized controlled trials and all of these studies and stuff, but it's like what value is there to the end of one, like personal anecdotes?

Gin Stephens: There's huge value. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's like crowdsourcing the information. There's a study they're doing right now in France, they're crowdsourcing, how people are living, and people are inputting it into apps. I think that's how they're going to be collecting data for a lot of things going forward. I know it's not a randomized controlled study, but there are even flaws with all those. If you try, you can pick any study, somebody can come along, say, “Well, here's the flaw there. Here's the flaw here.” There's always something. You can't control for every variable. Even changes become another variable.

Melanie Avalon: Because looking at a large group of people is sort of similar to a correlational study. I just think there's something to seeing it consistently over the years, like with a huge group, the Facebook groups or something, even though it's less official--

Gin Stephens: Right. It doesn't have any weight, but it should count for something because I can tell you what we had over and over, cholesterol goes up right after people start fasting. People, they might lose hair. Yes, if they overstressed their body with the fasting and their body perceives it as a stress. Or, they have increased acne for a while. Yes, we see those things so many times. New gallbladder problems, not a lot and definitely not more than I think you would have it in the regular population because gallbladder issues are hugely common. We would expect to see a certain amount of them, but we really didn't see very many, as I said before.

Melanie Avalon: It's telling.

Gin Stephens: It is.

Melanie Avalon: All right, shall we go on to our first question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Our first question comes from Mandy, the subject is “Body Odor.” Side note, I used to be obsessed with the name, Mandy, growing up, I thought it was a beautiful name.

Gin Stephens: It is a beautiful name. [laughs] Did you wish your name was Mandy instead of Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, I'm actually contemplating this answer. Possibly, possibly, I'm not sure. Oh, when I just thought of a random story, but we can come back to it. Mandy, the subject is “Body Odor.” Mandy says, “Melanie and Gin, I learned so much from your podcast. Thank you for showing up in my earbuds every week to keep me motivated. I am 43 years old and consider myself fairly healthy. I live an active lifestyle, watch what I eat, and I'm hardly ever sick. For years, I have struggled with a bad body odor, specifically from my armpits. A daily shower was a non-negotiable. Even then, it didn't always keep it at bay. Stressful situations, confrontational conversations, or public speaking would worsen the situation. I've made one big change in my lifestyle lately. I've switched from protein pacing my food to a 20:4 intermittent fasting, typically six days a week, my body odor is all but gone. Could this be a wonderful side benefit from the IF lifestyle? Thank you in advance for your thoughts.” All right, body odor.

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. We do hear this from people. First of all, we hear it both ways. We hear that they'll initially have really worse body odor for a while, we've heard that. Then, it gets better. We have actually heard it. Why is this happening? We’re just theorizing here because I don't think there's been a study on fasting and body odor that I've ever seen. Have you seen one, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: I have not. 

Gin Stephens: That'd be a pretty specific topic to be studying. Think about what's happening under those armpits. Your body is releasing sweat. What comes out with your sweat? Not just sweat. We sweat out toxins. Then, why do we smell because it's not the sweat itself that smells, it's what's happening with the little bacteria under there or whatever's going on in that little closed up area, making it have that lovely smell. I guess it's whatever's coming out and what those little bacteria do with it, that sort of thing. I'm not a sweat expert, by the way or I'm not a body odor expert. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my personal experience with fasting and body odor was-- actually I think when I first actually went low carb was when my body odor significantly went down, and then when I started doing fasting, it all but disappeared, and then it didn't come back until-- well, this is interesting, and this is all anecdotal, again going back to one on one, for a long period of time, it would only come back, if I had food that didn't agree with me, I would get body odor, which was really, really interesting. The example I'm thinking of is if I got sick, and I was having a lot of cough drops and stuff with different ingredients, I specifically remember I would get body odor. I think I just am very, very sensitive to detoxing that way. Somebody posted about this the other day my group, IF Biohackers, but they were saying the opposite, that they were experiencing increased body odor with fasting, and wouldn’t go away. I think a lot of people experience that as well, because if they get sort of a detox effect during the past.

Gin Stephens: That, I think so. Mm-hmm. 

Melanie Avalon: Gin mentioned it, it involves a lot of things, it involves the actual like detox, it can involve the bacteria. Interestingly, I didn't really realize the extent of-- our entire body has a microbiome. I don't think I really appreciated that until recently, but I read it in two books recently talking about it, specifically, our gut microbiome, our oral and our mouth microbiome. Did you know our breasts have a microbiome, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Hmm, I'm not surprised. Like, the first time that really I had my eyes open to it is when I interviewed a dentist for intermittent fasting stories, and she was talking about your oral microbiome. We've got all these little critters live in everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: And apparently, one of the books said, there's even-- and I have to research this further, but it said there's even like a microbiome cloud that's around us. I need to research that. I wouldn't be surprised, though. Kind of like, if you think of like Linus, or is it dirty one in Charlie Brown?

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's Pig-Pen.

Melanie Avalon: Pig-Pen. Yeah, point being, I assume there's most likely a gut microbiome population under your armpits that could be playing a factor. Also, it's interesting that she switched from protein pacing, which I'm not sure-- I'm assuming that's having small amounts of protein throughout the day. 

Gin Stephens: I would guess. I don't know, I've never heard it called protein pacing, but that sounds logical.

Melanie Avalon: Depending on the amount of protein I eat, I can experience smells related to that, which is interesting, and I think it has to do with protein metabolism. But, yes, the answer is all over the place. It's a thing.

Gin Stephens: We do hear it. If you start fasting and something changes about your body odor, either direction, yes, it's probably the fasting [laughs] because we have heard it both ways. 

Melanie Avalon: I do think that if it's a detox effect, you don't want to be in a state of detox forever. I think there's people who feel they get stuck in this detox state and they're just constantly detoxing forever and ever and ever. I encourage people who are experiencing that to maybe reevaluate, because that's the whole argument in the whole holistic health world about Herxheimer reactions and detox. Is detox a good thing? Is detox a bad thing? As far as like your experience of it with negative side effects, my point with all of that, is if you have the body odor-- well, she's talking about not having the body odor, but if you are experiencing body odor with fasting, and it doesn't stop, there's probably something else going on, that you might want to revisit.

Gin Stephens: Well, it could be your fat cells dumping out some kind of weird toxin, and you've gotten to that layer of whatever coming out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, true. 

Gin Stephens: Whatever goes in is going to come out, that’s the thing. It's like if you shove a bunch of crap under the bed, you're going to have to pull it back out when you're doing the cleaning. It might not be pleasant if it's been in there a long time. I'm thinking about when my boys were little, and how much grossness would be under their beds. [laughs] I would always get so mad. I was always infuriated by the end of the process. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know maybe all the other listeners maybe they just told their children to clean their rooms and their rooms were cleaned, but at our house, no. They would hide things away. I would go digging around and it was not pretty.

Melanie Avalon: I remember I was always so in awe of how my mom could find anything. Like if you lose something, your mom can find it and I just never understood that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, it's true. We can, we could find anything. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I still don't understand. How does she find the things? 

Gin Stephens: We just do. It's still true even to this day, even though it's only Chad and me here. I can find anything. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I don't understand. 

Gin Stephens: I'm not even home, I'll be at the beach and he'll call me and I know where stuff is.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't understand. [laughs] I will say though, one last plug is if you are using conventional deodorant, I cannot recommend enough not to do so, with the aluminum content. I think it's really, really important to switch to safe deodorant because plugging up our armpits with-- Well, first of all, just the idea of plugging up our armpits when those are supposed to be letting toxins out just seems a little bit counterproductive. Then, on top of that aluminum likely has toxicity in the body. I know we've had Native as sponsor before on the show, they have a great deodorant. Then Beautycounter has an amazing deodorant, so those are two options.

Gin Stephens: I really like the Beautycounter a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: Which scent did you like? 

Gin Stephens: Coconut, but I like lavender, too. I bet you like the rose, don't you? I don't like rose. People, it smells like rose. If you'd like the way rose smells, you would love it.

Melanie Avalon: I actually like the coconut the most. 

Gin Stephens: Do you? Okay, because I was just thinking how we would be the opposite, and you would like the rose. Yeah. You seem like someone who would like rose. Why is that? 

Melanie Avalon: Really? I don't like lavender, and you said you like lavender.

Gin Stephens: Oh, see, I do love lavender. I love lavender.

Melanie Avalon: I get a headache. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. It makes me so happy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't make me happy. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: But they smell very, very true to what they are. If you know you love coconut, you would love the coconut. If you know you like lavender, you would love the lavender. If you know you'd love rose, you would love the rose. My sister is someone who loves rose. That would be one for her.

Melanie Avalon: Rose is approachable, for me. In general, I don't like scents that much though. I wish they had an unscented one.

Gin Stephens: I love getting that little whiff of coconut.

Melanie Avalon: I like coconut though. That's why, yeah.

Gin Stephens: I feel like I'm at the beach.

Melanie Avalon: I feel summery.

Gin Stephens: Can I just tell you that the beach is my favorite? I tried to talk Chad into selling our house and moving there all the time. [laughs] He's like, “You are crazy.” I'm like, “Yeah, probably,” but I could live less than a thousand square feet. All I need is just a few things. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, minimalist.

Gin Stephens: Well, I could go minimalist. Anyway, I just love the ocean so much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my family's there right now, too.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, yeah. It's the best way. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, can I tell you the story that I remembered really quick? 

Gin Stephens: Yep. 

Melanie Avalon: Because you were asking me when I was little, did I want to change my name? Do you know like Mendel's genetics?

Gin Stephens: I do. We did need the little Mendelian, whatever they're called. Yeah.

 Melanie Avalon: Have I told the story before?

Gin Stephens: The little Punnett squares, is that what they're called? Punnett squares where you put in the Little Big B, little B or whatever and you try to figure out the genetics.

Melanie Avalon: He was like studying peas, and then he figured out-- Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Dominant and recessive. Yeah. I think those are called Punnett squares that you apply those. Anyway, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I saw something about him yesterday, and I got hit with this memory. Then, I asked my mom about it for clarification. Okay, this is a two-parter. In kindergarten, apparently, I got very upset that we didn't have homework, so I asked my mom and the teacher if I could have homework. They let me pick an assignment to do, so I decided to read a book about Louis Armstrong, and I did a book report on it with my dad and turn it into the teacher for a grade. Then in first grade, I asked if I could do it again. The teacher said I could. So, in first grade, I got a book on Mendel peas in genetics. I did a report on it with my dad and I presented it to the class. 

Gin Stephens: That reminds me of Cal, my older son. He totally did stuff like that. I can remember when he was in first grade--

Melanie Avalon: First grader. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: Well, Cal did. In first grade, he wrote a book. He stapled the paper together and wrote the book and illustrated it. He was in first grade and he was reading it to his class. His teacher said, “I'm pretty sure Cal just needs to skip on to second grade.” That's what we did. [laughter] Because the other first graders are like, “What's happening?” Cal’s like, “This is the book I wrote over the weekend.” Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Me and Cal would have been such good friends, Cal and I.

Gin Stephens: You would have been really good friends. He read all the presidential biographies in order when he was in elementary school, but he had to read them in order. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. It's such foreshadowing. Like first grade, I was doing a book report on genetics, then how many years later I'm interviewing David Sinclair? But yeah, good times. Anyways, shall we move on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Carrie. Subject, “How she stopped bingeing.” She says, “First of all, I love your guys' podcast and have been listening since last spring. At the beginning, I was super committed to IF and then lately, I've stopped. I'm starting to pick it back up again, but I've gotten into the routine of working out at 6 AM every day, mainly cardio because I love swimming and biking. I've been trying to do a window from 2 PM to 7 PM, but it seems like when I break my fast in the evening, I tend to binge before my window is done. I'll eat anything sweet that I see and just endless snacks, then I feel really gross and sleep badly. When I stick to it though and have that self-control to limit myself and not eat past 7 or 8. I feel great. 

My question for you girls is about the fasting window and what would be appropriate. In my workouts, I tend to burn upwards of 500 to 800 calories according to my Apple Watch. I get pretty hungry afterwards, but I can ignore it and wait until 1 or 2. But that's when I binge and eat everything. If I had a window from 10 AM to 2 PM instead, how would that change the fast? Would that affect fat burning and metabolism, any differently than later window? Do you think that would help? 

I'm 23 and 5’4”, and currently 137 pounds. I'm trying to get to 122 pounds, that's my goal weight. But I know if I look good and feel good, I'm not too worried about being that number. I just feel like I need a goal to lose the weight. Last summer when consistently doing IF, I stayed around 130 and was content, but still didn't have the best diet. Now with working out more to compete in open water swims, I feel like I need to nourish my body better but for some reason, I always have a tendency to eat poorly after I break my fast. SOS, I need your guy's knowledge and help. I'm almost at my wit's end trying to find something that works and get myself to stop bingeing. It's really making me feel gross and mentally making me struggle.” 

I wish I knew one thing, Melanie, I wish I knew when she started back to intermittent fasting, because bingeing is more common during the adjustment phase because your body's not tapping on your fat stores yet, so you're not well filled during the fast. If she's in the adjustment phase, that would be normal. Let's just assume she's not. If you're in the adjustment phase, then that's normal, and it will go away. But we're going to assume that you're not in the adjustment phase to answer the question. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. My thoughts about this are, she's asking two questions, what fasting window would best support her not bingeing? Also, what fasting window would best support, fat burning and metabolism? I wouldn't over analyze which one is going to create the most fat burning and metabolism. I would focus on which window supports not bingeing. Yeah, because I think it's kind of like what they say with exercise. The best exercise is the exercise that you do, it's better probably to be having an active lifestyle, doing consistent exercise in your life, even if it's not as “fat burning exercise,” compared to “fat burning exercise” that you don't like doing, and it's hard to stick to. Applying that to the fasting, I would play around with the window to find the window that makes you least likely to binge and stick to that. I would really, really, really suggest because I think this approach will work. How do you think we say her name? Carrie?

Gin Stephens: I said Carrie.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she spells it in a really interesting, beautiful way. I would really suggest checking out Glenn Livingston's Never Binge Again, I really think his approach would work for you, Carrie, like 100%. I've had him on my show twice, so I'll put links to that in the show notes. His approach is addressing the binge triggers. I've talked about it a lot on the show. I just think it's so, so helpful. Just to speak to how incredible it is, because I'm really good friends with him and I talk to him, actually, almost daily. His book just got over 10,000 reviews on Amazon, which is insane. I mean, that just goes to show how many people it's really working for.

Gin Stephens: You talk to Dr. Livingston daily? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] We're great friends. Yeah, he's a wonderful human being. Yeah, so I would really check out his approach because it basically addresses-- he calls it the pig. He talks about having like a food plan, but in your case, your food plan would be your eating window, or the foods that you feel like you're bingeing on. Identifying that voice that is telling you to binge and to eat, and just, like not listening to it, and it sounds really simple, and like that, it couldn't work because the answer is you just don't do it, but once you read it, you'll understand, like, how it can actually work. I think combining a window that would work for you, which we can talk a little bit about which window we think that would’ve been with the techniques that you might learn in Never Binge Again, you can probably find some freedom from these binge triggers. What window would you suggestion, Gin, for the timing?

Gin Stephens: Here's something that's important. She said she's doing swimming and we know that swimming burns a lot of fuel because first of all, it's you're in the water and so just the effect of the heat loss from your body to the water. Swimmers need more fuel. The fact that it's swimming I think is relevant. Like what was it, Michael Phelps needed 10,000 calories a day when he was training?

Melanie Avalon: I was just reading about that yesterday.

Gin Stephens: Not that we want you to count calories, but the urge to binge is a sign that your body is not well fueled. I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat., which is why I said it's common at the beginning during the adjustment phase when your body is not metabolically flexible yet and you're not well fueled. Your body's like, “Come on now. We're starving to death. Eat, eat, eat.” It's really hard to fight against your body, telling you you're not well fueled. We are designed to eat if our body feels like we’re in a panic situation. The fact that you're bingeing, if you're not in the adjustment phase, it’s probably your body saying, “Hey, you're not fueling me enough for this amount of activity that you're doing.” I would listen, and I would probably adjust your window earlier. You might need to do two meals, and maybe you need an eight-hour window. Make a plan for how you're going to open your window, instead of just grabbing what's there. Because, again, if your body is saying you are not well fueled, it is sending you the signal to eat whatever's around. It's really hard to ignore that driven, I must eat more, when it's your body, really having that physiological reason that you're not well fueled. The urge to binge can really let you know you're not fueling yourself well enough.

That's not the only reason people binge. I don't want people to think the only reason people binge is if that they aren't eating enough, because that's not the only reason. But the urge to binge can be a really strong indication that you're not fueling your body well enough. Then people feel weak, and they feel guilty, and they're like, “I'm so bad. What's wrong with me?” But it's not you, you're fighting biology. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to that, it was such a good interview, Gin. I interviewed Dr. Will Cole for his Intuitive Fasting book.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad it was a good one.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I interviewed him-- what is today, like few days ago. He thought it was going to be well embraced, he got a lot of backlash from the intuitive eating community.

Gin Stephens: I keep my eye on fasting books and see what people are saying about them. I've read all those. They really did not like the word ‘intuitive fasting.’ That really makes me sad, because I've tried to be an intuitive eater for so many years, and read all the intuitive eating books, all of them. I did not connect with my hunger and satiety signals until I started fasting. Being an intuitive eater without fasting is when I weighed 210 pounds. I was also eating-- because they tell you and all the books, they're like, “If you're craving something, eat that thing you're craving.” Okay, so my body's craving that I go to McDonald's, I was eating that food, and I wasn't nourishing my body, so I've had enough signals. Basically, that approach to eat whatever you want, whenever you feel like you're hungry, didn't ever work for me, but coupling it with fasting-- I didn't ever mean to couple it together, but when I started fasting, I suddenly became more in tune with my hunger and satiety signals. When I started improving the quality of the food that I was eating, I got even more in touch. The way they said, “Eat whatever you want, whenever you want to, and stop when you've had enough,” worked 0% for me, but combining it with fasting and food quality was a miracle. That's why it's so sad that they didn't like his work.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, 100%. In the conversation-- it was amazing. I literally said at the end, I told him, I was like, I think this is the conversation I've enjoyed the most that I've ever had about fasting just because we dived into everything that you just said, which is basically the idea of, can you be intuitive if the situation in your body is one that is not necessarily supporting intuitive choices?

Gin Stephens: I would say the answer for me was a resounding no. I was unable to be intuitive, because if I asked myself at any point during the day, are you hungry? My body said, “Yeah,” because I wasn't nourishing my body well, but the books I read insisted that you're not judging food, you're just listening to your body and learning to do that. Well, my body was like, “Eat some more fries.” That was really bad advice from my body at the time.

Melanie Avalon: The other day, I was listening to an episode on intuitive eating with an intuitive eating person. They were saying that in their protocol, how you basically needed to learn to how you could have just one Oreo or have a root beer?

Gin Stephens: Oh, it clearly works beautifully for some people.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Some people, they don't have that addictive response to it. They can work, and maybe they struggle with Oreos, and they have food fears, but because of their type of personality, maybe they could integrate that protocol, and they could learn to have just one Oreo, but I think a lot of people are not like that. I think Oreos are designed to make you want more. They're providing no nutrition. They're not providing anything your body needs. I think people they might hear this in the intuitive eating moment and then they'll feel like failures when they can't have just one, and I don't know if that's like a healthy approach for everybody. I don't think it is.

Gin Stephens: Well, because if I had one Oreo-- right even now, if I went to my kitchen, I don't have Oreos in my kitchen but if I did, if I went to my kitchen had one Oreo, then I would be starving. Then, I would be more likely to overeat because of the cascade of response that my body would have to the Oreo. My blood glucose would crash, and then I would be eating just whatever and I'd be starving and versus if I ate highly nutritious foods, like I love Daily Harvest’s-- their bowls. If my window with one of those, I'm satisfied, because I've nourished my body. I've learned that over time. It was because of fasting that I was able to become intuitive. I love the name of his book, but, yeah, people really did not like that. [laughs] I actually think that's a beautiful name for a book. I haven't read it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited that I interviewed-- because usually with these books, I interview-- not usual, a large portion of the time I interview the authors way before the book has come out. It would have been a very different conversation if I had interviewed him before it came out because we wouldn't have focused on that debate, but because it was after it came out, that took up such a large part of what we talked about. I'm so excited to release this episode, because I think that was a really great resource.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think it's an important conversation. I would identify myself as an intuitive faster. I think I even said that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I think I use the word ‘intuitive’ in there when I talked about it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, dear. [laughs] No, I'm saying good thing you didn't get any backlash from--

Gin Stephens: Well, I didn't because you read all the way to that point before you-- they all didn't even read his book. They just read the title.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that too, like how frustrating it can be when people don't even read your work and then--

Gin Stephens: You know like with Delay, Don’t Deny. Sometimes, people have read the title of Delay, Don’t Deny and think that, I'm in there telling you to eat as much food as you can. Quality doesn't matter. I didn't say that. It's any time, there's no time in Delay, Don’t Deny that I said eat whatever you want as much as you want, it does not matter, and this sounds like a review of just the title. 

Melanie Avalon: In any case, I'll put a link. Well, I don't think that'll be out by the time this comes out. 

Gin Stephens: Once it is, people can find it.

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The reason I went on that whole tangent-- well, Gin was talking about it too with her experience but I would say, Carrie-- because she says that with the bingeing she struggles with eating anything sweet and endless snacks. You don't have to have those in the house. Depending on what it is that you're eating, if you're finding certain foods are triggering binge-like behavior, I would encourage you not to buy those foods and not have them in the house, especially if there's something that, like we just said, are going just going to perpetuate the cravings and wanting more.

Gin Stephens: I agree with that. Yeah. Like Doritos, I love Doritos. I don't have them in the house. I really would eat too many. Anything cheese puffy. Do you like cheese puffs at all, like Pirate Booty or any of those different cheese puffs? I love Pirate Booty, or anything they have organic versions of all that stuff. It's still ultra-processed food, you can have organic ultra-processed foods. It just doesn't mean it's great for you just because it's organic, but I get no stop-eating signal when I eat those. I could eat an entire giant bag and feel like I've had nothing and then now I'm starving. Yeah. 

Do I never eat those foods again for the rest of my life? No, I will eat those foods, but it's best for me not to buy them and have them around a lot. It's just worth knowing yourself. You have to know yourself and what works for you and what does not. Look I'm a slow learner, I just talked about how I had red wine last night and [laughs] I keep saying no more of that, and then I'm, “Oh,” I like that that dog on squirrel. That's one of my favorite movies. I should have watched that movie again.

Melanie Avalon: I do like that movie. I had a really long conversation about squirrels last night.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's interesting. What was the context?

Melanie Avalon: The squirrels we were talking about how squirrels-- they don't have squirrels in Hawaii, I don't think, and people from Hawaii come to America and are fascinated by squirrels.

Gin Stephens: Well, I was in Connecticut one summer, and I don't know, what was it, gophers or groundhogs. I don't even know what it was. I was at the University of Connecticut, I spent a week there. It's called Confratute, and it was for gifted teachers, it was amazing. It was University of Connecticut and they have all these tunnels and you see them all over the campus. I'm like, “Oh my God, there's another one. Oh my God, there's another one.” Probably like the way people.

Melanie Avalon: And they pop up? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. they're everywhere. I'm sure that people up there like-- what was that movie, Caddyshack, where he was trying to blow them up. I could see why because they were everywhere, but they were so cute. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I've seen.

Gin Stephens: No, we don't have them down here. Whatever they were, they were big. 

Melanie Avalon: We're so used to our environment. Like the animals that we are used to, if we had never seen them before, and then we saw them, we will be so fascinated.

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah, I went on a dolphin cruise when I was at the beach. My friend, Sheri, and I, we went out on a boat and we got to see dolphins and it was amazing. I was so excited. I don't think I would ever get tired of dolphins though.

Melanie Avalon: They just seem like really wonderful animals. Oh, can I tell you a fun Mother's Day story speaking of animals?

Gin Stephens: Of course. 

Melanie Avalon: We have been having a bird trapped in our garage every day. Chad likes to have the garage door open during the day and then we close it at night. Every morning when I get up, there's been a bird in the garage flapping around and I'm like, “Why are these birds getting in our garage?” I open the door, and the birds fly out. This morning again, bird in the garage. Then, I realized we have a bird nest in our garage. It's a mama bird. It's not different birds every day. It happened while I was at the beach, Chad apparently kept the garage door open all the time because I would be the one who would close it. She had time while I was at the beach to come in and build a nest and lay her eggs. Chad looked up there. We've got eggs in there. Today's Mother's Day and we have a mama bird and so we're not going to close the garage, we’re just going to lock the house door at night until the birds vacate the premises. 

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting. 

Gin Stephens: I thought that was a good Mother's Day story. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. 

Gin Stephens: She's a mama bird, and she is just like, “Oh, no, I'm trapped in here again.” “Oh, well.” [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's like, Are You My Mother?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Oh, I love that book.

Melanie Avalon: Although-- did we talk about this? I was revisiting that in my head. Technically, the bird would have thought the first thing that it saw was its mother. It would have thought the rock.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because it would imprint on whatever it was, that's what they do. That is true. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: They wouldn't go around keep asking. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: That's true, but that is a great, great book.

Melanie Avalon: Well, do you want to do the one quick, clean, fast question that's really short? 

Gin Stephens: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, one last question from Joshy. The subject is “Clean Fast Question.” Thank you, guys, so much. I love you both and all the endless knowledge you have about the subject. Would it be okay to chew fennel seeds or cloves during the clean fast instead of sugar-free gum to help as a breath freshener? Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: The answer is no. [laughs] That was easy. No, you don't want to chew anything. Don't chew anything. Don't chew fennel seed. Anything that's food like. Fennel seeds, that's food, cloves, food, food, food flavor. You don't want that. Also, don't chew the sugar free gum, you don't want anything that's sweet. I'm sorry. As far as a breath freshener goes, I just have really found I brush my tongue if I need to. I've got Wow Drops, which are just peppermint oil, chlorophyll, they don't have any sweeteners, but I don't use them all the time. Like, if I'm somewhere in public, and I'm going to be running into people, then I'll use some, but most of the time, I mean, my breath is not bothering anybody but me. Especially now in the mask era, right, Melanie? With breath, we're like protected. Brushing my tongue makes a huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Using a tongue scraper for me. Have you ever used a tongue scraper? 

Gin Stephens: No, I just brush. I've heard a lot of people talk about tongue scrapers. I just haven't ever had one. 

Melanie Avalon: Huge difference. I'll put a link in the show notes. They make a huge difference. Yeah, I have sort of an oral breath fixation. 

Gin Stephens: Like you really don't want to have bad breath.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Just stay six feet away from anyone else. I don't get really close to strangers anyway. When I was a teacher, I learned when I would bend over kids’ desk, I didn't like exhale all over them. I mean, I don't know. I've kept my breath to myself whenever I could. No one ever said, “Oh, my God, your breath is so bad, Dr. Stephens.” They would have.

Melanie Avalon: They would have. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, my Lord, children, they would have. Yeah, they would have said your breath is bad if my breath was bad, but I tried not to breathe it on them. Even when I was fasting, because towards the end, I was drinking my black coffee and I was an intermittent faster, nobody complained.

Melanie Avalon: I just put the peppermint, and the peppermint oil in little spray bottles and I obsessively carry them around.

Gin Stephens: But, yeah, I would use the Wow Drops if I felt like I needed to get close to somebody. Oh, let me tell you one thing not to do. Do not use Wow Drops and then put on a mask. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I've done that with my peppermint. 

Gin Stephens: It will burn your eyes. 

Melanie Avalon: I've done that. 

Gin Stephens: We went to Costco yesterday because, again, now I'm free. I can go to all the stores as much as I want. Like I forgotten how to get around town, I've been stuck at home doing all this work. Chad and I are walking through Costco, and we still have the mask requirement at Costco, and so I had just used some Wild Drops and I put on my mask. I was like, whoa, bad idea, and my nose was burning too.

Melanie Avalon: Like I said, I make my own with peppermint, and sometimes, I make it stronger by accident than I mean to, and yes if you do that in the put on the mask, like crying.

Gin Stephens: It's like, wow. [laughs] Anyway, yeah, so I'm sorry for that. No fennel seeds, no clove, no sugar free gum. Peppermint is really gray area, you may find peppermint does not work for you. It fortunately does work for me. My body does not consider that to be food.

Melanie Avalon: Works for me 100%.

Gin Stephens: But it doesn't work for everybody. I've definitely had people say that it does not work for them. Their body perceives it as food coming in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I find that so fascinating, because for me, it just like kills my appetite completely.

Gin Stephens: It's just to me unrelated to appetite. Do you know what makes me hungry though? I've realized recently that it's shocking that my body does perceive as food, it's on the yes list. It's okay for fasting. Yeah. I thought this was true, and I now know that it is.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it's not coffee. 

Gin Stephens: No. Coffee does not make me hungry. Unless it's a nitro cold brew. I can't have those because my body thinks that sweet and creamy. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it a tea? 

Gin Stephens: No, I don't like any tea. I don't have any tea.

Melanie Avalon: I'm trying to think what else would be-- so it's on the yes list? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's not a beverage. I'm just trying to think like what you would be--

Gin Stephens: Although you could put it in a beverage.

Melanie Avalon: I'm trying to think what you would be using that you could put it in a beverage. I'm very much invested in this.

Gin Stephens: Something you could put in a beverage that doesn't break the fast. Some people like go crazy about telling you you're supposed to have this all the time. Particularly keto people. 

Melanie Avalon: Ice. 

Gin Stephens: No, ice does not.

Melanie Avalon: No, not lemon. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, definitely not lemon. Oh, this is really fun.

Melanie Avalon: This is really fun. I love guessing games.

Gin Stephens: I've stumped you. When I say it, you're going to be like, “Oh, yeah, of course.” You're going to know. What is it that people in the keto community who also do fasting always tell everybody no matter what their ailment, you need to have some blank? 

Melanie Avalon: Water?

Gin Stephens: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, salt. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Salt makes me starving. Starving. I was refilling a saltshaker recently during the fast like, I have the little pink Redmond salt granules and I was refilling it because it came from Amazon. That's where I order it. I was pouring it in the little saltshaker and dropped one on the table and I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to have a little piece of salt and I popped it in my mouth and then I was starving.” Like, starving. Starving, my body is like, “We’re going to eat now.” I mean, it was close to time to eat. I mean, it was like, so immediate.

Melanie Avalon: That is so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I've noticed it before and I thought could this be true, but it was really a very clear connection for me. I'm also someone who really craves salty things. I wonder if that salty is like a real signal to me that it's food. I don't know. I mean, it's really whatever your brain is thinking about. My brain was like time to eat. It was a signal to my brain, even though salt does not break the fast because it's a mineral. Anyway, I'm not somebody popping salt crystals [laughs] today, typically. Anyway, so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I was so confused. I was like, “What can it be?” Oh, my goodness. Well, in any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode214. You can also get all the stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and you can follow us on Instagram, still my favorite place to be, sort of, minus not liking taking pictures. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I'm happy that you have your life back.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And Happy Mother's Day.

Gin Stephens: It feels amazing. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye-be. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 02

Episode 211: Vitamin D, Insulin & Fat Storage, Blood Fat Clearance, Better Sleep, IF Dreams, Bathroom Urgency, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 211 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Five Health & Wellness Trends In 2021 - Vitamin D

Get Up To $200 Off With The Code MelanieAvalon At MelanieAvalon.Com/Sunlighten

100th Anniversary of the Discovery of Insulin Perspective: Insulin and Adipose Tissue Fatty Acid Metabolism

Listener Feedback: Leah - Gin’s New Social Network

Delay, Don't Deny Social Network

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon 

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon)

Listener Feedback: Alicia - IF And Dreams

Listener Feedback: Britt - ADF Or OMAD? Or Both?

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

The Science Of Fat Cells: Losing Weight, Gaining Weight, Killing Fat Cells, Liposuction, Body Contouring, CoolSculpting®, ECM Remodeling, And More!

Listener Feedback: Carolina - Toilet Urgency When Breaking Fast

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 211 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I am a huge proponent of getting our nutrition from food. When all else fails, I feel food is the way to go. That said, there are some nutrients that are super hard to get in today's environment. Did you know that 80% of the population is deficient in magnesium? Our soils are so depleted of magnesium today, that it's really, really hard to get enough of this crucial mineral. It's actually the number one mineral to fight stress, fatigue and sleep issues. I've been doing a lot of research on minerals, especially the calcium magnesium balance, and I walk away from so many conversations I have with experts just realizing more and more how important magnesium is. I personally love magnesium for its stress-reducing effects, as well as helping with my digestive issues. Yes, magnesium is the single most-studied mineral in existence. It actually powers over 600 critical reactions in our bodies.

Did you know that there are multiple types of magnesium? That's why I am so excited to share with you, the magnesium product that I discovered, is called Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers, and it combines all seven essential forms of magnesium into one convenient supplement. Most magnesium supplements actually fail, because they are synthetic and are not full spectrum. When you get all seven critical forms of magnesium, pretty much every function in your body gets upgraded, from your brain to your sleep, pain and inflammation, and less stress. With this one simple action, you can help reverse your magnesium deficiency and all of its forms. This is by far the most complete magnesium product ever created, and until or unless someone comes out with a better one, I highly recommend you give it a try. I can't tell you how many times I get feedback in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, about people who have truly benefited so much from Magnesium Breakthrough.

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its antiaging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing antiaging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol. So you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do? Definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift, that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fast and clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 211 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm still at the beach, so that lets you know I'm good. I'm going home tomorrow. I've just enjoyed this week so very much. I was going to go home on Saturday. It is now Sunday, and I'm not going home till Monday. Chad was so sad. I was like, “Oh,” because my sister decided to come down, and then I need just a little more time. I was like, “I'll be home Monday.” He's like, “What? You were coming home on Saturday,” but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: So relaxing.

Gin Stephens: It is. Yeah, I've been doing a lot of work. I had things I needed to do here at the beach property, but, well, I'm recording a podcast. I just recorded an ad for something else. I'm working. To me, this is relaxing. It's my kind of relaxing. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: Getting your vitamin D levels?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I am getting my vitamin D. That is true.

Melanie Avalon: Did I tell you I got my vitamin D tested, and I way overshot everything?

Gin Stephens: Like it's high?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know that you can have too much vitamin D.

Melanie Avalon: I've been researching it. I don't think so. I don't want to make that blanket statement. Basically, there's only been as far as toxicity studies with vitamin D, there's been, I think, like two, and they were massive, major doses, like things that people would not be doing, but I am going to hold off. I feel like all my vitamin D levels-- because I was 30, which is low and now I'm like 130. Have you had yours tested?

Gin Stephens: Not for a long time. The last time I had mine tested, it was low, but I had not been supplementing, and it was like I'd not been in the sun, because it was wintery.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess I'll err on the side of having more rather than less. It's so important, the vitamin D.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think so for immunity, I just watched a video, it was a doctor talking about immunity, and he said seasonal cold and flu season-- not to mention coronavirus obviously, but seasonal cold and flu season is very much seasonal low vitamin D season. So, just keeping our vitamin D up is really one of the best things we can do for immunity of all types.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll actually put a link in the show notes, and I talked about this before on the show, but I did a guest blog post on Sunlighten’s blog, and I did a section on vitamin D with a lot of the studies on COVID, and things like that. It's a very intense correlation.

Gin Stephens: Now I couldn't find, does Sunlighten sauna increase your vitamin D?

Melanie Avalon: No, sorry. I'm glad you said that to clarify.

Gin Stephens: I looked for that and couldn't find anything that indicated that. If it does, that's really exciting, [laughs] but I thought the answer was no, because I looked it up.

Melanie Avalon: They asked that about Sunlighten infrared, and they asked that about like red light Joovv devices. No, those do not create vitamin D.

Gin Stephens: I got excited for a minute, because I was like, “Well, I could be wrong. Maybe I missed it.”

Melanie Avalon: No, they have a health and wellness blog. We have a link for them for our show. I think so.

Gin Stephens: Well. If not, we need one. I love my Sunlighten sauna.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so for listeners, you can go to ifpodcast.com/sunlighten, and the coupon code, IFPODCAST, gets you whatever their deal is for us. I think it's like $200 off on sauna and free shipping, which is insane.

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad I invested in that sauna. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so great.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I got the three person that you can get in, and it is-- I wouldn't get in there with two other people. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I actually, because I have the solo unit, the one that you lay down in for the first time, because the place where I'm doing my almost daily cryotherapy, they have an infrared sauna. They actually have a Clearlight, which I like that brand too. I realized I hadn't sat in one of those.

Gin Stephens: Really?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's a different experience, being in the cabin unit.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's nice and it has a tablet in there, so I can watch TV while I'm using it. You may not want to do that, but I can. I have it on like Discovery+, because I'm watching Discovery+ right now. I'll go in there, and put on an episode or something, and set the timer, and just watch one episode, and then get on out. That's been my new morning routine, at home, not at the beach, because I don't have one at the beach, but get in the sauna, first thing in the morning, use it, then go get in the shower.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny how we do it opposite. It's the last thing I do. I brought my phone though, into the Clearlight one, and then I was like, “Oh, I think I'm killing my phone.” [giggles] It got really hot. I felt like I was on the struggle bus when I got out the phone.

Gin Stephens: You really aren't supposed to heat those phones up, that's true. For me, now that I'm no longer on Facebook, I used to feel the stress of being in there because I'm like, “What's happening? I'm 45 minutes in the sauna, and I don't know what people were doing in the groups,” but now I'm just like, “I didn't take my phone in. I just got in.” It was so nice.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, when you have the solo unit that I have, it's hard to describe, but it's like-- I don't want to say a coffin, but you lay down--

Gin Stephens: Like a big sleeping bag?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, that's a good example. A big one so it's not touching you and your head is actually out of it. I have a whole setup. I got this arm to hold a phone, so I can hold the phone over me, and I can read while I'm in it. It's relaxing and productive, and [sighs] one of my favorite things. Guess who I interviewed yesterday?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Marty Kendall.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love Marty Kendall. Yay. Isn't he awesome?

Melanie Avalon: He's amazing, and he was going on and on. He'll probably listen to this. [laughs] It was really wonderful, because I really respect him, and I have for a long time, and he really respects us, and he has for a long time. It's this really cool, mutual respect thing. We were bonding over the fact that neither he nor I, we're not doctors or nutritionists. He's an engineer. I'm an actor, podcaster author, I don't even know.

Gin Stephens: You're a biohacker.

Melanie Avalon: A biohacker. [laughs] Is that my identity label? I guess so. Yes, but, oh, my goodness. Listeners, I can't wait till I air this episode, because it's going to be the resource episode that I refer listeners to now for the misconceptions surrounding keto and insulin and ketones and all of that. We talked for two hours, and we just dived in so deep, but I think it's going to be so valuable just to refer listeners to it.

Gin Stephens: He is brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he's amazing.

Gin Stephens: What I love about him is that he started off thinking certain things, the conventional keto wisdom that we've all read hundred times, but then he realized over time, wait a minute, no, and then he did the work, and has done the actual trials, and he worked with people who are-- I don't mean trials like clinical trials, but they've tried it out, seen what happened, measured things.

Melanie Avalon: I'm trying to remember. I asked him at the end like, “What was the thing that he most changed his mind about?” I try to remember exactly, because we talked about all of this for two hours, so it's all running together.

Gin Stephens: Was it eating a lot of fat?

Melanie Avalon: It was either eating a lot of fat is the key, or it was like that keeping insulin low is the thing, something involving all of that. The idea of constant low insulin or--

Gin Stephens: Right, because we do want insulin to be low during the fast when we're fasting, but the body is so much more complicated.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things we talked about that I think most people do not realize, and even I'm prepping right now to interview Gary Taubes for the case for keto, and I was asking Marty. I've been asking every single authority figure or researcher in this area. What should I ask Gary? I was asking Marty, what would he ask Gary, and one of the things was the difference between basal and bolus insulin, because so many people think that we just release insulin with food and that it's on or off, but the majority of our insulin, I think 80% or something, well, it depends on what diet you're following, but the majority is the insulin, that's just always there.

Gin Stephens: He said that's interesting that he said 80%, I remember a Butter Bob blog post and video, he said, “50%.” I don’t know.

Melanie Avalon: It ranges--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, Butter Bob said 50% of your insulin that you've got circulating is just your natural--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it ranges majorly, since it's a percent, not a specific number. While the specific number of the insulin while fasting might not change, the amount of insulin released when eating might change, depending on the macronutrients. The percentage would change based on your macros, but even though that percentage changes, that doesn't necessarily mean it's changing the amount of insulin necessarily during the fast, while the percentage would change. That was complicated. Did listeners follow that? [giggles]

Gin Stephens: Well, I get that, because the math, as numbers change, percentages change. The range is different, the range changes.

Melanie Avalon: The number might just change for the food based on your macros, but not so much for the fast. One number would change, it could drastically change the percent, but not drastically changed the amount of insulin that you have outside of eating,

Gin Stephens: Those are all ballpark numbers anyway, 50%, 80%. Those are not going to be set in stone for any anyone person, because we're all so different.

Melanie Avalon: 100%. That's what he was saying about the case for keto was that, and I need to revisit it with this lens, but I think the majority of what he talks about is he really just looks at the insulin in response to food. Well, no, because he talks about the baseline insulin state of given individual and smelling foods, I don't know, there's so much. Listeners, I will put this in the study. I found-- I didn't find it. James Clement, who I've had on the show, sent it to me. This amazing new study came out, it's a review. It came out March 26th, so pretty recently, and it's called 100th Anniversary of the Discovery of Insulin Perspective: Insulin and Adipose Tissue Fatty Acid Metabolism. Oh, my goodness, it's blowing my mind. I'm going to have to read it 20 times. It dives really deep into the role of insulin and fat storage and fat release, and there's some really great quotes in there, basically saying with eating fat, specifically, insulin is not necessarily the primary or only factor involving fat storage, and all of these other things can create fat storage as well, and it lists examples of meal fat content, meal timing.

Gin Stephens: We knew that. We knew that already. Or, you and I knew that because- [laughs] but the misconception out there is I don't know why, why it makes no sense that your body can't store fat from fat you eat. I've seen people say that.

Melanie Avalon: It says for example, “Thus, factors other than insulin play more important roles to stimulate adipose tissue uptake,” so that means our bodies taking up fat and “storage of meal fatty acids, including meal fat content, [laughs] rate of meal fat appearance and circulation, repeated meal intake, lower body fat distribution, sex hormones, and other postprandial hormonal responses.”

Gin Stephens: Yep. Really, I think people get it mixed up. Insulin is antilipolytic, I love that word, meaning that, if you have really high levels of insulin, it's hard to be in a really good fat burning state with really high levels of insulin. But that doesn't mean that with low levels of insulin, you cannot store fat. That's the thing that people get mixed up, “Oh, high levels of insulin can't burn fat, low levels of insulin must mean I can't store fat.” No.

Melanie Avalon: 100%, and also with the storing fat, people think, “Oh, fat doesn't release insulin that much, so that must mean it can't be stored,” but the reason it doesn't release that much insulin is because it is easily stored. It's literally the opposite.

Gin Stephens: I was talking on a podcast for Intermittent Fasting Stories. I was interviewing Joel and Renee, a mother-son team of intermittent fasters, they both do intermittent fasting. It was a great episode. We were talking about, “What I would do if I needed to lose weight?” and I said, “I would eat less fat,” because I know how my body is. This was a long time ago before I even knew I cleared fat slowly, but I just knew based on my response results for keto, that my body didn't do well with a lot of fat. I said in that interview, “I would just put less butter on my bread, I would not use as much butter in my cooking, I would lower my fat.” Somebody actually wrote to me and said, “You're wrong. Fat is not the enemy. You cannot store fat,” and I’m like “What?” It just shows me that people are really confused.

Melanie Avalon: Yesterday on Instagram, I'm really trying to get-- I don't know how to say his last name Max Lugavere, the Genius Foods guy. [laughs] He wrote a book called Genius Foods, which is amazing, and then a new book called The Genius Life. I really want to bring him on the show, and people have been asking, and I've been emailing his assistant, but he's not responding. I've been trying to comment on his Instagram stuff to get his attention, but he posted something the other day that was all of these misconceptions about diet, I'm just looking at it right now. It's like eggs are unhealthy, meat is unhealthy, avoid salt, sugar is fine. And then, the next one is fat makes you fat, and then use refined cooking oils and all these different things. I commented and I said, the only one that I think about a lot is the fat makes you fat, because when you're storing fat, probably the majority of it was from fat, not carbs or protein. It's like did the carbs make you fat, or did carbs create an environment that allowed the fat to make you fat?

Gin Stephens: That's a good way of putting it. Had you eaten nothing but fat? For me, yes, you can still store fat. Even Dr. Fung has a blog post about this, where a lot of people didn't want to read it. You know how you put your hands in your ears, you go la, la, [laughs] when you don't want to hear something? He wrote a blog post a long time ago that said, “Who should have bulletproof coffee and fat bombs,” and he was like, “If you're trying to lose fat, not you.” People didn't really read that one or want to hear it.

Melanie Avalon: So many people do say that fat doesn't make you fat, but I feel in most of the cases, it is the fat that's becoming fat. The hormonal environment is determining whether or not it is, so or to what extent it is.

Gin Stephens: I'll never know what happens if you eat nothing but 100% fats, I don't want to do that. It makes me feel yucky. [laughs] It might be hard to overeat fat to that degree, because you're just like, “Gross, I'm done,” but I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you just ate-- Now, I'm thinking of tangents. If you just ate the C8 MCT oil, I don't think you would get fat. I don't think they would get stored.

Gin Stephens: I think it would make me really sick.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, it would make [laughs] if that’s all you ate.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Fine. Honestly, I don't know that I'd be able to eat enough of it to get it down, if I could choke it down enough to know if it would make me gain fat, because I wouldn't be able to consume it in that level. That's the thing. It wouldn't be enjoyable. Eww, ugh. [laughs] Anyway, it's interesting question.

Melanie Avalon: Also, oh, wait, one really last thing. I interviewed Dr. Gundry, recently, for his book. It's The Energy Paradox, because he's always got to use the word ‘paradox.’ [laughs] What he talks about a lot is mono diets in his book.

Gin Stephens: Does he like mono diets?

Melanie Avalon: I got so excited. For the longest time, I have thought if you do a mono diet, if something, so just protein or just carbs or just fat, which not so much the fat one, but it makes it very hard to gain weight in such a situation. He talks about the benefits of temporary mono diets basically because they allow the system to clear out, because there's not all these competing fuels. Though his book is about healing your mitochondria, it's a really good book. I learned so much about the mitochondria. It made me so happy, because I was like, “This is what I think about a lot.” He actually advocates intermittent fasting, opening your window with a monotype diet, and then having your second meal later be not a mono diet. I'll put a link in the show notes to his book, and any of the interviews I have done when this comes out, I don't think any of them will have aired though.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we just have some very brief listener feedback supportive listener feedback from Leah. The subject is “Gin's New Social Network.” Leah says, “Gin,” and then she says in parentheses “and Melanie”. “I just wanted to tell you thank you so much for starting your own social platform. I got off Facebook this year, and I am so excited to reconnect on your platform. Also, I want to tell you both that I am so inspired by what you have created. I have plans to start a podcast, and create content in the future, and you're both such an inspiration to me. Thanks, Leah.”

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you, Leah. It's dddsocialnetwork.com, for Delay, Don't Deny, that's what the Ds are. dddsocialnetwork.com, and I'm really enjoying it. Like I mentioned before, my life is so much calmer now, because not having to manage half a million Facebook members, [laughs] and the posting. I'm going on in the morning to the DDD Social Network, and I'm going in the evening, a couple times a day, and also, I'm checking my emails, because I get instant emails, if someone posts in the 28-Day FAST Start group or the Ask Gin group. I'm responding to those throughout the day, but it's so much less stressful, so much less pressure. For new intermittent fasters, Melanie, I'm having so much fun coaching them in the 28-Day FAST Start group. People are like, “I'm on day 10,” and they're talking about it. It's exciting to see so many brand-new people joining. It's not just for brand-new people, we have lots of experienced fasters too, but I like to see we're starting fresh with new fasters. Also, just like Leah said, a lot of people who had left Facebook, but missed the support. The long-term fasters who were not on Facebook, but missed the community, so now they can have the community again. It really is exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I'll set up an email that I use just with that group, and then I can set it up to have alerts just for my little group in it, because I went in there the other day, and I was like, “Oh, there's all this stuff.” Like, if there's a group for me in there, I didn't even realize-- Oh, I did realize.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but you hadn't really poked around.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: It's so different than Facebook. This is the thing that confuses some people, because they think it's going to be Facebook 2.0 or something, and it's not, because we're used to Facebook serving up the content to us-- I've been on Facebook, or I was on Facebook since 2008 or something, and Facebook decided what you would see, and it showed it to you, and served it up, and you became a consumer of the information Facebook wanted you to see. Versus here on the DDD Social Network--

Melanie Avalon: You're creating the content.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and you decide where you want to go, and what you want to engage with. You want to see the Melanie Avalon Biohacker Podcast group, you go to it. Some people are like, “Wait, I just wanted to show it to my eyeballs.” We're like, “No, that's not how it works. You’ve got to go there.’”

Melanie Avalon: If I did that, if I create an email, could I get alerts just for--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you change it to instant on the settings for each group. I don't have every group I'm in set to instant. Just the ones I never want to miss something in. I never want to miss anything in Ask Gin, and I never want to miss anything in the 28-Day FAST Start. But I don't really care what they're doing in the Melanie Avalon Biohacking group, so I do not get instant notifications there. [laughs] Then, they go to your email, and then it's very easy. You just go to your email and go click, and then it takes you right to it. From that click, it takes you right to that post, and then you can respond to it. It's so easy.

The notifications are different than Facebook notifications, but they're way-- and there's more of them, because it doesn't group them together. You know how in Facebook it groups them together? If 20 people commented, it would group them together as one notification, here you get 20 notifications, but it just takes you to the post when you click on it, but they're less buggy.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Perfect. For listeners, we'll put a link to that in the show notes, and then I always just want to clarify, I still have my Facebook groups. Those are still the place for all of my content. Those are IF Biohackers, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, and then I have a Lumen group, but you can just search Melanie Avalon in Facebook.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I also still have the big Delay, Don't Deny: Intermittent Fasting support group. I'm just not there. The moderators are running it, and you can ask questions on Ask a Moderator. Today, we got, “Does alcohol break a fast?” [laughs] The answer is yes. But the moderators are handling those questions. It's just the basic questions. If you need more support and you want me to walk you through the 28 Day Fast Start, you need to be at the DDD Social Network.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, we have something from Alicia in Phoenix, and the subject is “IF and Dreams.” She says, “Hello, and happy day to you both. Intermittent fasting is fairly new to my lifestyle. Clean fasting for only six weeks after reading Gin's book, Fast. Feast. Repeat. Since finding your podcast, I've been learning tons. So, thank you so much for your continued efforts in bringing all the new and emerging research on the subject. My question is about dreams returning after little to no dreaming for years. Have you heard about this or think it's connected? If so, how? It was a rare occurrence for me to have a dream, now they're nightly. Since starting IF, I've been experiencing better sleep. I'm feeling more rested, and notice I wake less often at night. I'm super happy about this delightful side effect and would appreciate any thoughts you might have as to the mechanism of how this is happening. Maybe hormone balancing, deeper REM sleep?

Side note, here's a little info about myself and my eating window/pattern. I'm 5’5” and weigh 126 pounds. I started eating intuitively in 2019 after starting a daily yoga routine. Whole foods, lots of plants, cutting out what made my body unhappy, i.e., processed and sugar foods. I was inadvertently doing IF, but not clean, waiting to eat until after my noon yoga session. I lost the 30 pounds I needed to within a nine-month period, but a couple creeped back on when I started loosening my strict no-sweets policy.

Oh, a little tangent here. It made me laugh when I heard, Gin talk about her love for black bean brownies on a recent episode. They are my favs.” Yep, me too, Alicia. They're so good. People think they sound weird if they haven't ever had them. That's just a little side note there. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: What's funny is, it doesn't even remotely strike me as weird. I'm like, “Oh yeah.”

Gin Stephens: It's so good. [laughs] All right, Alicia says, “Black bean variety are the best, and I've tried many, many types of alternative whole food brownies. Anyhoo, those couple pounds fell off after adopting the IF lifestyle. It was fairly easy at first, except the black coffee since my DNA report shows, I'm more likely to detect bitter taste like Gin, but I've grown to like it. Clean fasting ever since. My fasts last from 19 to 23 hours, although my average is 21, i.e., until I feel good, always some veggies, and usually something sweet to close my window. When I'm being good, it's dates, yum. When I'm splurging, it could be ice cream or a cannoli. Not often do I get those, probably for the best. Never feeling guilty. Thanks in advance. Lots of love to you ladies, Alicia. Oh, and I also have an Oura ring and love it.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I missed that. I didn't see that part.

Gin Stephens: Oh, by the way, I had ice cream yesterday, and it was amazing. [laughs] I'm at the beach with my sister, ice cream was on the menu. We did a lot of walking, we were shopping, and then we went and walked around a place called Brookgreen Gardens, which is just beautiful. It's spring and they have all these gardens, it's a place to see. Oh, I saw an owl. A baby owl.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you saw baby owl?

Gin Stephens: There's a baby owl, and they had something called Live Oak Alley. The baby owl was up in the tree, and all these people were taking pictures of it, like professional photos, and it was just so fluffy and cute, and it was big, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, how big is a baby owl?

Gin Stephens: It's whatever, a big kind of owl is. It's a big species of owl. I can't remember the species that it is. Whatever they have down here in South Carolina that are really big, it's that. The baby is as big as the adult of some species of owls. It was so cute up in that tree. Anyway, tangent, sorry.

Melanie Avalon: It's appropriate, because owls and dreams at night.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's true. My point was I ate the ice cream, then I walked a lot. I didn't have restless legs, I didn't have any ill effects. I slept great. That was the good news.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I really, really love this question. I'm so happy for you. It sounds like she's really found the diet and lifestyle that works for her, which is awesome. She has her Oura ring, which is awesome. For your question, I actually asked Dr. Kirk Parsley, who is a sleep expert who I've had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast multiple times. I sent him your question. Here is his answer.

“Her sleep is almost certainly improved by improving insulin sensitivity and tighter glucose control, increased dreaming and more memories of dreams as a second order consequence of better sleep, and epiphenomenon.” I asked do people dream even when they don't remember it, he said, “Yes, remembering dreams depends a lot on waking and temporal proximity to the dream. Basically, it's most likely that your sleep is getting better, because of all of the health changes with your insulin regulation that you've experienced with intermittent fasting, and then it sounds like we do always dream, but whether or not remember it has to do with the timing of when we wake up.” That's a short answer, but do you have thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, that's what I was going to say as well. We do always dream, whether you remember it or not, and that people don't know that because if you don't remember it, you're not aware you dreamed, but you did.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You can still have increased dreaming and more memories of them, because you're getting better sleep. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right, this question comes from Britt and the subject is “ADF, or one meal a day, or both.” Britt says, “Hi, ladies. Love your podcasts and books. I'm a postmenopausal 53-year-old, and currently weigh around 190 pounds. I lost weight in 2010. I was 256 pounds, and she went to 132 pounds after a gastric sleeve, and I kept it off mostly until about two years ago by focusing on protein and veggies and incorporating fasting after discovering Dr. Fung. Between COVID and a foot injury, I regained a considerable amount of weight last year, so I'm starting this back on track with fasting. I have no trouble fasting on a daily basis 16 to 24 hours. It didn't seem like I was losing consistently, but I don't have the data to look back at. Now, I've got 60 plus pounds to re-lose.

After hearing Megan Ramos mention that 36 to 42 hours often works better for women, I decided to give it a try. I find it a lot harder to go the full 36 to 42 hours. Not physically, I don't have much hunger until the very end, but it's been fairly difficult mentally. I've struggled with feelings of deprivation and find myself thinking about eating at the end of the first day probably, two out of every three fasting cycles. I'm wondering what advice you might have. Is it really worth pushing myself to do the three longer cycles per week? Is there that much of a difference in weight loss? Do I kick off the year with ADF, and go for maximum weight loss? Start every fast with something like a 20-hour goal, and keep going if my head is in the right place that day? Just do a longer fast one day a week, and work my way back up to three, or kick back to one meal a day and save ADF for a future stall?” Those are a lot of options. She thought this through. She says, “Insight appreciated.”

Gin Stephens: All right, so there's a lot to unpack in there. First of all, I want to say, this is my experience, me. I lost 75 of my 80-ish pounds-- since I don't know what I weigh exactly, we'll say 80-ish. I lost the first 75 with a daily eating window, not doing any ADF or longer fasts during that period of time. I didn't do really ADF. I'd done it way before in earlier tries with fasting back in that 2009 to 2014 struggle period. When I wasn't consistent with anything, I would dabble in eating window, and I would dabble in alternate day fasting and nothing really stuck, so I wasn't consistent, but when I did finally get consistent and lose the weight in 2014 to 2015, it was with the daily eating window approach.

When you say, “works better,” well, that worked fine for me. It was after The Obesity Code came out when I was already in maintenance, but struggling with a little bit of weight regain, which I blame on the fact that I was not fasting clean, because I didn't understand all of that until after I read The Obesity Code, and then I switched to the clean fast, lost the weight I had regained, but right after I read The Obesity Code, I did start doing a 4:3 approach, because he doesn't really have a plan in the book, in The Obesity Code except the appendix at the back, he does have like a 4:3 kind of, where you're doing like three-- Like, you said that Megan Ramos mentioned three 36- to 42-hour fast per week, so that's what I did. I'm like, “Well, that's what he says, so I'm going to do it.”

I did it. I did re-lose, it was about eight pounds that I had regained, I did re-lose those doing that approach, and I also had switched to the clean fast. Did I re-lose those eight pounds, because I was doing ADF or, the 4:3 approach or did I lose them because I was finally fast and clean? We'll never know, because I can't go back in time and replicate that study with a different approach. I did struggle with feelings of deprivation like, you're saying, Britt, that you went through.

Do you need to do it to lose weight? Well, clearly not every woman needs to do it to lose weight, because I didn't. Do some women find that it's an approach that really helps their bodies? Yes, 100%. Especially, if you're insulin resistant, you've been overweight and obese for a long time. Now, you're talking about how you lost a great deal of weight in 2010 after a gastric sleeve. You do have a history of obesity and the weight loss surgery. That was a while ago, but you kept it off, and then you regained it, I guess with the stress of COVID and your injury, so you're getting back on track there.

You may need to throw in a longer fast here and there, but it's really not all or nothing. If you've got Fast. Feast. Repeat., I want you to reread the Intermittent Fasting Toolbox section and pay attention to the part in the book where I talk about a hybrid approach. It's really not all or nothing, where you have to either do daily eating window, or do longer fasts. You could throw in one 36-hour fast. Here on the DDD Social Network, our moderator, Roxy leads us through Meal-less Monday. I don't do it. I don't do Meal-less Monday, but a lot of people do. They start off every Monday with one longer fast to 36 to 42 hours, followed by an up day, and then the whole rest of the week, you could do daily eating window approach if you want to. That's just one way you could do it.

Once a week, after a weekend, some people find that just starts the week off right, and it feels good after a weekend where they might have had a little more indulgence than usual. It also keeps you from having that adaptation that you might have, because even though intermittent fasting does protect us metabolically in many ways, you still can adapt if you do exactly the same thing day in day out. Fortunately, for me, I never do, because I'll have a day where I'm just hungry and I eat more, I've never really fallen into that rut of 23:1 day after day after day or something. I just naturally switch things up. If you find yourself naturally not switching things up, then you might need to purposefully do some switching up.

Oh, one other thing that I highlighted that was so important. This sentence right here, “It didn't seem like I was losing consistently, but I don't have the data to look back at.” Okay, I really, really, really do not want you to go by feel or what it seems. I don't want anybody to do that. When I was trying to be an intuitive eater, and they're like, “Just eat intuitively and you'll be fine.” I was not good at knowing what my body was doing. I could gain a whole lot of weight without feeling it. You got to have some data. I want you to reread the Scale-Schmale chapter of Fast. Feast. Repeat., and if you don't want to use the scale, don't use the scale. That is only one way to do it. Use measurements, use progress photos, use honesty pants, but use something. If you are going to use the scale, weigh daily, and you need to calculate your weekly average, or use an app like Happy Scale that does that for you and shows you your trend. I don't want anybody to go by what it feels like. That is the number one worst way to know whether you're losing or gaining. I'm puffy right this minute, because I ate two meals yesterday with ice cream in between. “Feel like I might be gaining weight.” Am I? No. I'm just puffy. You really can't go by how you feel. I don't want you to do. That is not a good tool.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I have three thoughts. The first thought was, it's ironic. I don't know if it's ironic. Okay, if I read her question a little bit out of order, and if I just read the end, and she's asking about what to do to lose this stubborn weight, I would suggest without reading the first paragraph of her message exactly what she did the first time around, which would be a high-protein veggie diet with a normal one meal a day type fasting window. It sounds like that's what worked for her the first time. I'm wondering why she doesn't want to do that again. It seems that instead she wants to do these really long fasts, but she doesn't like fasting longer.

Gin Stephens: Well, she doesn't say she did one meal a day at the beginning. She doesn't say that that's what she did. She discovered Dr. Fung, focused on protein and veggies. Maybe she was doing longer fasts, because a lot of people--

Melanie Avalon: And incorporating fasting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because we don't know what she did at the beginning. Well, although she does say after hearing Megan Ramos mentioned, “I decided to give it a try.”

Melanie Avalon: I feel this is a new idea to her.

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: She finds it difficult mentally, so it's something that she is struggling with the concept and actually implementing it. For me, when it comes to weight loss, yes, the longer fasts are an avenue to that potentially. I believe the amount of change you can make if you haven't addressed the food choices within just a “normal fasting” one meal a day type window are extraordinary. I would suggest exactly what she already did, which was the protein and veggies. That's what I would suggest, is doing that unless for some reason that you don't want to do that again.

The second question was-- oh, this is a question for you, Gin. Just the concept in general, how do you feel about the concept of starting every fast with a 20-hour goal, and keep going if your head is in the right place that day? Is that something that you ever recommend to people to do?

Gin Stephens: When you start off with a goal that everyday must be 20, then I feel like, you're going to set yourself up for feeling disappointed and you've failed if you don't make that. You could say, “I want my week to have an average of 20,” or something like that, because then you'll have some days where it might have been 22, and another it was 18, but you still had an average of 20. Whereas, if you said every day, I'm going to make it to 20, that day that you did 18, you might feel like you failed, but really your average was 20.

Melanie Avalon: What's ironic is that was what worked best for me.

Gin Stephens: Was what? Every day it had to be 20?

Melanie Avalon: Well, not 20 specifically, but focusing on the minimum fasting hours, that was the most freeing approach for me.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's the thing. You have to find what's the most freeing approach to you, but a lot of people beat themselves up when they set a goal of, “Every day I'm going to do 20, and then I have permission to eat.” That's a rule, that's a diet rule that it might help you, maybe that's the thing that makes you successful, and there are people like that. But there are also a lot of people that feel like, “You've failed if you don't then make it to 20.”

For me, I am more of the average person, like I said. As long as I'm doing the average, this day was 18, but that day was 22, “Hey, it worked out.” That gives me flexibility, but also having a goal, but it's still a flexible goal, but it still averages out to be 20.

Melanie Avalon: How is it different from having an end to your eating window?

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: The way I like to do fasting is the marker that I have, and we've talked about this a lot before on the show, but the thing I'm counting and the marker that I have is the fast, and then when I eat, there's no rule or boundary on that. Compared to when you flip it, some people put the rule and boundary.

Gin Stephens: See, that was me. I was the eating window person. If I wanted to get a little more structured ever, if I needed to lose weight or something, I would work on focusing the length of my eating window and shutting it down. For me, tracking the eating window is a better approach, because if I have too long of an eating window, I can overeat. For me, the eating window was a better thing to try. As long as I kept it to five hours or less, that was better. My fast might have been 18, but my eating window still was 5, and then maybe the next day my fast was 22, but then my eating window was still kept it to less than 5.

Melanie Avalon: You really have to find what works for you. The only reason I wanted to elaborate on it was I didn't want to discourage, because like I said, for me, that's what works best-- is that I don't do it really anymore, but in the beginning, that's what really, really worked for me with minimum fasting hours, and then no rules, no regulations around the eating. That was just ridiculously freeing for me. Some people do better with the opposite, which is not having really any rules or regulations around the fast, and then having more rules and regulations around the eating window just as far as determining times of things.

Gin Stephens: It's what do you struggle with. For me, it was, “All right, I've had enough now, it's time to stop, my window has been open for five hours.” [laughs] That was like, “Okay, that's enough.”

Melanie Avalon: The question I was trying to get to-- because I think we're focused on the 20 hours, the question I was trying to get to though was, how do you feel about if somebody wants to do one of these longer fasts, the ones that Britt was referring to. The idea of I'll just do my normal time restricted eating intermittent fasting window, and then if I feel like it, go longer, how do you feel about that concept?

Gin Stephens: Well, that plays into the idea of intuitive eating. I like the idea of listening to your body, obviously. If you get to hour 20 and you say, “Am I hungry?” I'm really not. You give yourself permission to eat if you want to, instead of telling yourself you can't, or you're going to fail, and you can also do the down day approach where you have the 500-calorie meal on the down day. You could get to hour 20 and say, “All right, do I want to continue to fast to 36 hours?” Or, “Do I want to just play it by ear?” Or, “Do I want to have a down day meal?” Have a 500-calorie meal, and then close your window, and then the next day is an up day. That's also a perfectly good approach. Anybody who's like, “What is she talking about?” If you haven't read Fast. Feast. Repeat., the chapter on Alternate Daily Fasting Approaches. You can have a full 36- to 42-hour fast, or you can have a 500 calorie down day, where you fast clean, then you have one small 500 calorie meal, and then you start a second fast, and then the next day is your up day.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. You're always such a wealth of knowledge.

Gin Stephens: That's because I got all this part down pat. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Don't ask me about ADF and all of this.

Gin Stephens: There's so many ways you can adjust it. What I really was interested in is feedback after people read Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talk about the hybrid approach, which is really I made that wording up. I didn't make up the word ‘hybrid,’ of course, but I applied it to fasting, I'd never seen it applied there, but people were like, “I had no idea you could mix and match.” I'm like, “Yes, yes, you can.” We're so used to following plans where people tell us exactly what to do, and instead, “No, this is your Intermittent Fasting Toolbox, and you can do whatever you want,” and there's the freedom.

Melanie Avalon: Taylor Swift says, “take my hand, wreck my plans, or something like that from Willow.

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Shall we do one more question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, I think it's take my hand, wreck my plans, that's my man.” Okay. I wanted to actually throw out one. It's not really a resource, but I actually did just post a blog post all on fat cells. The reason I'm bringing it up, as I mentioned, because she had gastric surgery, right? Yes. I do talk about that a little bit. I dive deep into fat cells and burning and how they expand and how they shrink, and I address the myth of do fat cells die, because people think that they don't ever die naturally, but they do. They do about 10% per year. And then, I actually talk about different fat removal methods, things like CoolSculpting, liposuction and things like that, and I ponder the implications of that and what that leads to weight regain afterwards. It's interesting to hear for example, well, she a gastric sleeve so that creates weight loss by not actually removing fat cells, but by shrinking your stomach. If listeners are interested, it's at melanieavalon.com/fatcells.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Carolina, or Carol-eena, either, it's a beautiful name, as I'm sitting here in South Carolina recording. Her topic is “Toilet urgency when breaking fast,” and she says, “Good day to you. I've been doing IF for a year or so with some 24 hour and 36-hour fasts now and then. A very common occurrence for me is to have toilet urgency with number two very soon after breaking fast. Any thoughts, please? Thanks, Carolina,” or Carol-eena.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Carolina. I would say Caro-lina, but who knows. We've had questions about this before, and it can obviously be a lot of things. One of the things that I have read that I feel makes a lot of sense to me that it could be is just when we eat, even though we're putting in food at the top of our system, and it's in the stomach and the small intestine, that tends to stimulate peristalsis, so digestive movement throughout our entire digestive tract. When we eat, it can stimulate our lower colon, our large intestine, and depending on the state of our large intestine in general, which depends a lot on your gut microbiome state, it can basically start that process, and depending on what the environment situation is down there, that might manifest as diarrhea. That's an option. Another option, I don't know what you're eating, but people can experience this effect when they have fat with a meal and it creates stimulation of the gallbladder, and that can lead to an effect down there.

As far as my suggestion about the solution, and we just really don't have enough information to know, but it would be something where you would want to work with your food choices to try to address your gut microbiome state down there. Finding the diet that works for you for that, and I know that's really vague. As far as supplements might help, probiotics can potentially help. I really like P3-OM with BiOptimizers. They're actually the sponsor on today's episode, so you can listen to the ad for that to get a coupon. I actually just emailed them last night and I said, I was like, “Can you send me some more P3-OM?” because I'm running out.

I really think that looking at your food choices would be the thing to do here. The reason I think it starts happening a lot for a lot of people with fasting is you've changed from eating throughout the day and having this peristalsis and slow movement throughout the day, compared to a fasting situation where it's more of a-- sort of like a shock. You haven't been eating and then you do eat, and so it just turns on all of this movement. That's my thoughts, Gin. What are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: We hear it a lot in the communities that people have this issue. Not a lot of people have it, but we hear it frequently. That's the way of putting it. It's a common thing that we hear that happens to some people. I'm so glad that it didn't happen to me, though. [laughs] This is a problem I'm glad I didn't have. I feel your pain, those of you that have had this issue, because I'm sorry, I know that it's not fun, and you're like, “What's happening?” What Melanie said, trying to get your gut health back in balance is a great idea. Just know that, yeah, it's your body getting things moving again, really.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Just the food.

Melanie Avalon: The food choices. That actually made me think of something, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Okay, what?

Melanie Avalon:  I have a question for you.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: I've been dying to know, are you still implementing anything that you learned from your Zoe trial?

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. I've got it in the back of my mind. I will never not know that information about myself. It helps me just feel confident in my food choices, but I already was. Knowledge is power. Like I said, it confirmed what I knew about what foods really worked well for me and taught me a few things about that, and so, do I follow it like, this is how I eat exactly according to these recommendations? No.

Melanie Avalon: What dd they recommend for you?

Gin Stephens: It's not as easy as just saying that. There's an app and you can plug things in and see what things work well for your gut, what things work well for you based on your blood clearance, basically you know how quickly you clear blood glucose, how quickly you clear fat. What really was interesting to me, was how the timing of what I eat makes a difference as far as if I eat too much fat in a concentrated period of time.

For example, it would be better for my body to eat over-- maybe eat a little something to open my window, and then wait a while longer-- If I eat something high fat, wait longer before I eat again. The same amount of food in a six-hour window if I'm eating a lot of fat, would allow my body to clear the fat before I put more in.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting is, I don't know enough about the details, but it's like that study we mentioned at the beginning where I was saying that fat--

Gin Stephens: Fat clearance. 100%.

Melanie Avalon: Or something about the timing of fat into the bloodstream was a factor. What did it say?

Gin Stephens: I think you use the word ‘fat clearance.’

Melanie Avalon: Uptake and storage of meal fatty acids including meal fat content, rate of meal fat appearance in circulation. All of these factors are so, so important.

Gin Stephens: We've all been trained by the diet industry that the only thing that matters is calories in, calories out. If you're eating the exact same thing, or the macros, the exact same macros, the exact same calories, why does it matter if you eat them over one hour or six hours? But the way your body handles it, it really can matter.

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, I'm just remembering something that I-- I don't know if we have time. Okay, I'll tell it really quick. Dr. Gundry’s book that we talked about, there was a study. Are you familiar with the NIH study? There was one study in monkeys. I don't know the details, but there were two different institutions that did a study in monkeys, and they were looking at calorie restriction. One of the groups testing the monkeys, the monkeys were on a high fat, sugary, processed diet. The other monkeys, they were on a more whole foods type diet. Both of the monkeys had health benefits, but only the monkeys on the processed diet had increased longevity.

Gin Stephens: Processed food diet had better longevity?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. They were trying to theorize why that was, and Dr. Gundry was saying that he had theorized with other people that it was the low protein content of the processed diet that was the reason. Then, they did a follow-up study. I got so happy, because I read this. Then I was like, “I think I know why what it was.” Dr. Gundry doesn't really come out and say this, and I talked with him. When I interviewed him, and I asked him about it, and I was like, “Is it this,” and he said, “Yes, it's that.” He said the publishers made him word it really weird, because he couldn't come out and say this. [laughs]

They did a follow-up study with mice to try to figure out what was going on, and they did all different setups. They did mice that were eating their normal food all throughout the day, and then mice that were eating the food in a calorie restricted and a fasted window, like a time-restricted window, and then mice that could have all of their normal food, but in a time restricted window, and they were trying to figure out what was going on. Long story short, they found that the longer fasting was creating the most health benefits. The theory with the monkeys is that the high fat diet, because they ate for a shorter amount of time, because in order to control the calorie situation, they would give it just at one time, they didn't have access to it all day.

Gin Stephens: They had longer fasting. That was a variable. It wasn't the food, it was the longer fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Right. The monkeys eating the whole foods, it took them longer to eat it, compared to the monkeys that ate the processed foods, they ate it really fast, and then they had a longer fast, and they actually had more health benefits, and this is all theorizing. With calories, if they are eaten and cleared a lot faster, it matters. The timing matters, because I read the section in his book. I kept reading it over and over and over again, because I was thinking what I just said. I was like it just sounds, because the processed food was digested way faster, but they had a longer fast, and that was where the benefits came. He doesn't outright say that, because the publishers didn't want him to make it look like he was saying eat processed food.

Gin Stephens: There's never been a study that had ultra-processed food lead to better health outcomes, with all other variables being equal.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. With all other variables constant, yeah.

Gin Stephens: See, that's the thing. You can't draw conclusions when the variables are so unequal.

Melanie Avalon: What you'd have to do for that study is you'd have to have ultra-processed food, same amount of calories in whole foods, and then you'd have to dose out the processed food, so that the time window is the same time window as the whole foods.

In any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. We have all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. The show notes for today's episode are at ifpodcast.com/episode211. And then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens, and you can join our various groups that we talked about in the show notes. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Apr 25

Episode 210: Cryotherapy, Building Muscle, Skin Tags, IF Headaches, Hair Loss, Autophagy, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 210 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Blublox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To blublox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie To Get 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #60 - Wim Hof

Delay, Don't deny social network

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon 

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon)

Listener Q&A: Laura - Stuff You Like

BLUBLOX: Go To Blublox.Com And Use The Code Ifpodcast For 15% Off!

LIFEPRO VIBRATION PLATES

THE SHAPA NUMBERLESS SCALE

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie To Get 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Listener Q&A: Michelle - Fasting but GETTING BIGGER????

Listener Q&A: Laurel - Daily Headaches While Fasting

Drink LMNT

Listener Q&A: Diane - Hair Loss

Listener Q&A: Cindas - Sensitive Stomach

Get Melanie's App To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Listener Q&A: Allie - Autophagy and me

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 210 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, are you struggling to lose weight despite fasting clean? Maybe you're even making healthy food choices, fasting more, shortening your eating window, ramping up your exercise, and yet the weight won't budge? Well, we actually just found a major reason for why that may be. As it turns out, there are compounds in our environment called endocrine disruptors. Meaning, they mess with your hormones. Studies show that a lot of these endocrine disruptors are actually obesogens. Meaning, they literally make you gain weight. They also make it hard to lose weight. These toxic obesogens are naturally stored in fat. When they enter your body, your body creates fat to store them in to protect you. Once they're in that fat, they then change the genes in your fat stores, so that you are more likely to store more fat and less likely to burn it. They can also affect your insulin signaling and boost your appetite, so you want to eat more and store more fat.

Most of us are actually exposed to these obesogenic endocrine disruptors daily in our skincare and makeup. That is actually one of the largest sources of these compounds. Yep. As it turns out, when you're washing your face, putting on makeup, using lotion, or even putting on sunscreen, you are likely putting 1 of up to 1300 compounds banned in Europe for their toxicity- and obesity-causing potential but they're completely fine for use in US skincare. When you put them on your skin, you're making it that much harder to burn fat, and that much easier to store fat. So, if you're struggling to lose weight, you definitely, definitely want to clean up your skincare ASAP.

You can do that easily with a company called Beautycounter. They make safe skincare and makeup products that are extensively tested to be free of endocrine disrupters, obesogens, and other toxic compounds. They're truly safe and supportive of your health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd also like exclusive discounts, giveaways, and the latest on the science of skincare, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. So, are you fasting clean inside and out? Well, now you can. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 210 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, 210, it’s 210.

Gin Stephens: Wait, what?

Melanie Avalon: The numbers are in order.

Gin Stephens: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: Counting down.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Yeah. 210, that's right. I was like, “What? What are you talking about?” It's not 210, episode 210, got it. You like when things count down?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It just seems like a pattern. It doesn't mean anything. How are you?

Gin Stephens: Well, the other day, yesterday was, 4/3/21 we're recording this, on the fourth, but yesterday was 4/3/21. Did you know that?

Melanie Avalon: No. If we had done this yesterday, it would have been 210 on 4//3/21.

Gin Stephens: That would have been cool.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Today is my dad's birthday. He's got the coolest birthday. He was born on for 4/4/44.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's a cool one.

Gin Stephens: Now, the world knows how old my dad is.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: We're recording on 4/4, and yesterday it was 4/3/21. Hello, numbers.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm outnumbered now.

Gin Stephens: There you go.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today?

Gin Stephens: I'm great. I'm at the beach. If anybody hears anything weird, that's why, or if it sounds different. [sighs] It's spring break.

Melanie Avalon: Well, are a lot of people there for spring break or is it--?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It is cold. This morning, it was like in the 40s and I look out in the front there and there's people swimming in the pool, I'm like, “What is wrong with you? Are you from Canada?” or something. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: No offense to people from Canada. People down here that are from the south are not swimming in the ocean or the pool today. Let me just tell you. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I have a very related to that exciting update.

Gin Stephens: What is it?

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. You might have seen it on my Instagram. There's a place near where I live, and you can get unlimited-- it's insane the deal, for the first month at least. You get unlimited hyperbaric oxygen treatment, which I am actually too scared to do. Are you familiar with that?

Gin Stephens: I've heard of it for people who have like diving accidents or something, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like you get in a pressurized chamber and they pump in pure oxygen. I don't think I can do it because my phobia is claustrophobia and also pressure on things. It's basically the worst situation I could ever be in, I won't do that. It's unlimited that, unlimited infrared sauna unlimited, they actually have Joovv devices.

Gin Stephens: That's like actual Joovv?

Melanie Avalon: It is the actual Joovv brand. Unlimited stretch sessions, you get one IV. But the main thing that I am doing it for is unlimited cryotherapy.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Have you done that before? Have we talked about this?

Gin Stephens: Well, of course not.

Melanie Avalon: I did it three days in a row.

Gin Stephens: Are you supposed to do it three days in a row?

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to do it every single day that I can do it. I can't even describe how it makes me feel. Oh, my goodness. You feel high, like high, after, not during.

Gin Stephens: After the cryotherapy?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Basically, for listeners who are not familiar, cryotherapy, it's this chamber that you get into and they pump in liquid nitrogen. It gets down to-- I think it depends, but I think it can get down to around negative 250 degrees Fahrenheit. I've been doing two and a half minutes. I don't know what it is, probably around negative 200. It's so exciting. You hook up your phone, so I play a Taylor Swift song. Then I get in, and then it fogs up, and you can see the thing counting down. But then, the nitrogen gets so thick, you can't see the clock anymore, and you're like, “How much longer?”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that doesn't sound fun at all.

Melanie Avalon: It's incredible.

Gin Stephens: I'd rather go swim in the ocean today.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not kidding. I actually mean this in the most authentic, serious way.

Gin Stephens: It's better than getting in cold water?

Melanie Avalon: I think it is more doable and less unpleasant than a cold shower. I actually mean that, like--

Gin Stephens: I believe you.

Melanie Avalon: When I do a cold shower blast at the end of my shower, I used to do 40 seconds, and now I give up after 10 seconds. But this is just so cold that it almost doesn't even register as cold if that makes sense.

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: It just shocks you so much.

Gin Stephens: Seriously, though, is there an upper limit that you're supposed to do? Is it good to do it every day or is that too much?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. I posted about it on my Instagram and my Facebook group. Some people have been saying they do it every day. Some people say they do it as much as they can. I seem fine. You're supposed to work your way up to higher and higher levels. It seems like the more you do it, probably the easier it will get. The first time I did it-- I've only done it three times. The first session, I did the beginner, which was negative 160 something degrees and I'm at intermediate.

Gin Stephens: You beginner you. [laughs] Negative 160, yeah, okay.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: Well, have fun.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, if you want pictures, go to my Instagram, I posted a picture. I'll post a picture of the actual tank. I just posted a picture of me in front of it, but--

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to go look at it right this minute.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I really like the end. I already said this, but at the end when the nitrogen gets so thick that you can't see the clock anymore, it's just this surreal, thrilling experience. Oh, last thing, I should probably say why I'm doing this. The health benefits of cold are pretty, pretty fantastic. A reason that we do intermittent fasting, tying it into our show, one of the reasons is that fasting activates a lot of survival-type genes in our body that basically go around and clean up shop and boost our immune system and just make us more resilient, and cold activates a lot of those same and other genetic pathways as well. It has a lot of health benefits. I've done an episode with Wim Hof, who's basically like the cold guy, you can check out that episode at melanieavalon.com/cold. It's really good. They did one study actually and they were testing specifically cryotherapy in patients with depression. In half of the patients, it reduced their depression by 50% compared to the control group, which was either none or 3% of people. There was basically no effect in the control group, which I can see why. You just get out and you're just like smiling. That's my pitch.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, that's good. Have I talked to you since I left Facebook?

Melanie Avalon: I asked you how it went.

Gin Stephens: On Messenger?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I didn't think I talked to you live, because I think we recorded last Sunday, the day before. Can I just tell you that people are fantastic? They're amazing. I got 99.9% positive feedback from people.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: It was amazing. I was so scared when I woke up Monday morning, and I was going to archive the Advanced group and the One Meal a Day group. The big group is still open. The moderators are answering questions on Ask the Moderator and running the daily threads. My moderators are amazing. They are just amazing. I also sent out my blog post that explained why. It's at ginstephens.com, and it's called Change is in the Air. I have sent out blog posts before, and maybe one person replies to it. I got so many replies to the blog post from people who were understanding, and it said it made them think about it. Just amazing.

Melanie Avalon: That makes me so happy.

Gin Stephens: Also, no one ever comments on my blog posts, but 80 people commented. You know you can comment on a blog post?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Wow.

Gin Stephens: I mean, it made me cry.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: I was so scared that people were going to be like, “No, I hate you, Gin. How could you leave Facebook? You're awful. You've ruined my life.” Instead, people were like, “Take care of yourself.” They were so supportive. Anyway, it was amazing.

Melanie Avalon: That's wonderful.

Gin Stephens: Also, there's a kid running up and down in the hall, in case you hear it. Everybody, the teacher in me is going crazy. I'm at the beach condo, and someone is running up and down right outside the room while I'm recording it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I heard that. I was like, “Are there children?” [laughs]

Gin Stephens: There are children at the beach condo. If you hear running, that's what it is. Anyway, I'm just so grateful. I am so, so, so grateful. First of all, I'm grateful to the moderators that have allowed me to keep the large Facebook group open for people who want intermittent fasting support for free still on Facebook, but I'm also grateful to people who understood why I left Facebook. I feel like I have my life back in some ways. I really just can't explain how-- because we had pending posts, and I would go check them every 10 minutes, I swear I was on there, and it gave me so much stress and anxiety.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I can imagine.

Gin Stephens: I guess no one was going to drop dead if their Facebook post wasn't approved but I felt personally responsible, like I needed to be in there doing it. Anyway, and I'm loving that there's an Ask Gin Group on the new platform. I'm also really grateful for people that have joined me on the DDD Social Network. There's an Ask Gin Group, so anybody can go in there and ask me a question, and because of the way that the platform works with the notifications, I get an email. I see an email that I need to go answer someone's question. It's just so much more of a relaxed way of responding to people.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it's going to add a really nice-- you already had a foundation, but like a stable, healthy foundation to all the work that you're doing.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that is all good things.

Gin Stephens: It is good. I just feel so relieved, because I was like, what's going to happen if everybody's so mad, and then no one ever listens to any of my podcasts again, because the whole key was that I was on Facebook. That was the key to my life. I'm just so glad that it isn't. I've been stuck in fear for a long time. Knowing I needed to do something different and knowing I wasn't present in my life but knowing I really couldn't do anything. When I wrote Fast. Feast. Repeat., okay, I wrote it in 2019. I purposely didn't say the word ‘Facebook’ in it one time. My editor was, like, “Don't you want to put in your bio about your Facebook groups?” I'm like, “No, do not put the word ‘Facebook,” because I just knew it was unsustainable. That was we only had 100,000 members at that point. I already knew I was like, “I don't know how I'm going to manage this.” Ah, such a relief.

Melanie Avalon: Well, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes to Gin's new group that you can join the DDD Network.

Gin Stephens: DDD Social Network. That's right.

Melanie Avalon: DDD Social Network. Then I always do just want to clarify, I do still have my Facebook groups.

Gin Stephens: I do too. I have the big one. The Delay, Don’t Deny Intermittent Fasting Support, but you won't get me, you'll get a moderator, and the moderators are fabulous at answering the questions. They've all been trained by me. They love what they're doing. It really helps them become stronger in their intermittent fasting practice too, they enjoy supporting new members, they like to do it. I told all of them, “If this is not bringing you joy, walk away. You just tell me.” It is bringing them joy.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of communities, for listeners, DDD Social Network, the existing Facebook groups Gin has. Then I still have, if you want to talk about cryotherapy, and all the things, I have IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life, also Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare group, and then a group for Lumen, Biosense, CGMs, and all that stuff. I've actually contemplated, the other day, I was like, “Should I start an Oura ring group?” No, at least not right now, but contemplating it. On that note, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started. The first is a question from Laura. The subject is “Stuff You Like.” She says, “First of all, I love your podcast. Thank you for all the information and inspiration. If you could choose only one or two items from the stuff you like list, what would you choose? And why?”

Melanie Avalon: All right, so that's a great question from Laura. I'm glad she sent this because I realized I think I've dropped the ball on updating that recently. I thought about this, I didn't even pull up the page. Basically, that page is supposed to have everything that we've ever talked about liking. I actually, my number one answer is the books because I think the most important thing to me, or one of the most important things to me in my daily life is knowledge and finding knowledge and researching. All of the books, if I can list that as one thing and then second would probably-- but it's so hard. If I had to pick an actual device or something like that, I don't know, it's probably red-light therapy, Joovv, or BLUblox, blue light blocking glasses. Those are both just so invaluable to my daily life. I can't imagine my life without them. Or Beautycounter. Okay, that was a lot of stuff. How about you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I love Beautycounter as well. I've started using my blue blocking glasses again, from BLUblox. I'm lazy about using them. I don't like putting glasses on my face. [laughs] I'm doing some research for my new book and got to that section. I'm like, “Darn it, you really should be using these. You really, really should. Darn it.” The science is so clear.

Melanie Avalon: Which ones do you have again? Are they red colored?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. You're wearing them at night before bed?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, is it helping?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. It's hard to know. I think so. Yeah, blue blocking glasses. I need something else, like something that just attaches to my face and they're not glasses. I don't know how to fix it. I don't know what I need. Maybe like a face shield, I'm not wearing glasses but they're important. I don't know, maybe I need like a bubble, like astronauts’ wear, or I just need to go to bed when the sun is down. I don't know. Anyway, the science is so very clear, it makes sense why we're not supposed to see those wavelengths at night because the blue light is the wavelength from the middle of the day.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When I interviewed Andy Mant for the second time recently on my show, he said that even a brief exposure to blue light at night sets back your melatonin production by 30 minutes, which is upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's hard to do. I'm taking off my makeup with my eyes closed, so I don't accidentally see light. It's [laughs] really a challenge.

Melanie Avalon: Just thinking about what I do, because I put on the yellow, the SummerGLO ones earlier in the day. Well, when the sun's going down, I put on the SummerGLO one. Then if I'm taking off my makeup, then I guess I just take them off. Actually, I probably sometimes take off my makeup in the dark, and then switch over to the red. If listeners would like their own pair, they can go to BLUblox.com, that's spelled B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom. The coupon code, IFPODCAST, gets you 15% off. Something cool that BLUblox does is for every pair of glasses you buy, they actually donate a pair of glasses to someone in need.

Andy created the company because he realized the importance of how much blue light affects everything like our sleep, our stress, our anxiety. Then, he went actually tested a lot of the blue light blocking glasses on the market and realize they weren't actually blocking what they said they're blocking, so he decided to start his own company. I love BLUblox. They have so many options. They have all different styles and you can get them in prescription, if you have a prescription which is really cool. They also have clear computer glasses that don't block all of the blue light but those are good if you're staring at screens all day. Huge, huge fan. Again, the link for them is blublox.com, coupon code IFPODCAST gets you 15% off. Yes, they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need with every purchase that you'd buy. That worked well.

Gin Stephens: That did work. Well, I have a couple of other things that I really like. First of all, is my LifePro vibration plate. Yeah, ginstephens.com/lifepro, you can see about those. I also love my Shapa scale. I'm still using it, ginstephens.com/shapa. I really love it. It's helping me a lot. To have that, that color, it keeps me from feeling crazy about a number.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense. I also want to add Oura ring to my list. I got my new diamond one.

Gin Stephens: Oh, how's that?

Melanie Avalon: It's really pretty. Although I feel like it probably does look like a engagement ring or wedding ring.

Gin Stephens: Are you wearing it on the wedding finger?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, you're married to Oura.

Melanie Avalon: I am. [laughs] I do. It's measuring my heart, literally. I did a lot of research on which finger to use, but my ring finger is just the most comfortable.

Gin Stephens: It's 2021, you can do whatever you want.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: The worst thing that's going to happen is who's going to think you're married. Oh, no.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. [laughs] Oh, my goodness.

Hi, friends. I wanted to tell you about one of the most incredible resources for taking charge of your blood tests and lab work, ever. I am a huge fan of a company called InsideTracker. They are actually a David Sinclair partnered company. What they do is they provide access to the blood tests that you need to be testing, as well as interpretations, so that you can figure out what that all means.

Basically, we often go to our doctor, we get blood tests, we test things, but is it what we need to be testing? What does it even mean? That's what InsideTracker is here for. They've done extensive testing to figure out which blood markers can tell you the most about your actual health. These aren't necessarily all the tests that you might expect. They provide personalized interpretations of those results along with dietary and lifestyle recommendations, so that you can truly take charge of your health. Their InnerAge, for example, analyzes your blood work to determine your true “inner age” and how to lower it. I did it recently. Thankfully, my inner age was lower than my actual chronological age, but there were still some things that I could work on. InsideTracker has really helped me meet my goals in that way.

They've also got DNA testing, as well as one of my favorite things, which is their online portal. Guys, this online portal is a game-changer that includes your results from InsideTracker, but then you can upload all of your own data from any other blood results that you've had through your doctor, so helpful. You just go into the portal, you drop in your lab results, and then you have all their lab results all in one place. It's so easy to see how things have changed over time, and they interpret these lab results from other companies by their standards. It is so helpful. I cannot even describe how much I use this platform.

If you'd like to learn more about them, as well as all about bloodwork testing, definitely check out my interview I did with the founder, Gil Blander. That's at melanieavalon.com/iInsidetracker. And InsideTracker also has an amazing offer just for my audience. It was 20%, I asked if it could be 30, and they said yes. They are so amazing. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/getinsidetracker, you can use the coupon code Melanie30, to get 30% off sitewide. Yes, 30% off sitewide, melanieavalon.com/getinsidetracker, you can use the coupon code Melanie30. That’s M-E-L-A-N-I-E 30, I'll put all of this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Shall we jump into our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: This comes from Michelle. The subject is, “FASTING BUT GETTING BIGGER????” She has that in all caps with lots of question marks, so she seems a little bit distressed about this. She says, “Hello Gin and Melanie, I thoroughly enjoy your podcast, your knowledge, your willingness to do all the research and your expertise on IF. I am 51 years old, I started fasting June 1st, 2018 but didn't know about the clean fast until December 2018, and I've been a faithful clean faster ever since. I had no weight to lose when I started but just thought my body was starting to look older. My dad had Parkinson's disease, which I would like to avoid if at all possible. I started IF for the health benefits and I have seen felt many. Greatly reduced inflammation, no more eczema skin tags gone.” I want to circle back to the skin tags, by the way, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah, I know what that is, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. “So much energy. No more bloating or gas, increased muscle mass, to name a few. This last one brings me to my question. I work out every day for at least one hour and then walk my dog three to six miles most days. I do HIIT workouts, cycling, weight training, running, stairs, elliptical, kayaks, swim all the things. My body is getting bigger, not in a bad way but I don't really want to be bigger. My legs/butt are rock hard. My arms are quite muscular. I have abs, but a tiny bit of flab, I have three kids, just under my belly button. I fast clean for 19 to 21 hours every day, eat all the things and one meal and a snack, but mostly healthy and hardly any processed foods and rarely any added sugar. I do eat fruit. I'm not much for alcohol, but I have an occasional drink. My jeans have gotten tight through the legs, and it makes me sad.

I've been the same size my whole life until now. I don't really weigh, but I would say I've always been 115 pounds, I'm 5’6.5” tall. When I last saw a doctor, they weighed me in at 126 pounds. I'm not at all concerned about the extra numbers on the scale but I do want my clothes to fit and I will never go back to all those daily meals and snacks. Yuck. I do not want to let up on my exercise. I have good energy and like to expend it. Any suggestions or ideas on how to fix this? I understand it's not a bad problem to have, but it's still a problem for me. Thank you again for all you have done and continue to do to help so many people. You two are a blessing. Michelle.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, Michelle, I've got some news for you that might be bad news, or maybe it's good news. All right, until we get to the part where we know that you're 5’6.5” tall, and you were 115, now you're 126, and you work out a lot, and your legs and butt are rock hard. You my dear are putting on muscle. We talked about how fasting increases human growth hormone and you're able to build muscle more easily. That's what's happening. You are going to have to stop doing so much working out or accept that you are now building muscle and you are going to be bigger. You're not gaining fat. If you're rock hard, it looks like you've gained 11 pounds of lean muscle honestly. Wouldn't you think so, Melanie? I don't know that she's gained 11 pounds of lean muscle, but she was 115. She's now 126. 126 is on the low end of a healthy weight for 5’6”. It's definitely not overweight, it sounds like you are just-- I bet you are gorgeous. I don't know that there's a problem to solve, except that your body is different now and more muscular.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my thoughts were that most of the weight gain is likely muscle, most likely. It's harder for women to quit on size when it comes to muscle. If we do put on size, it's usually in our legs, that's like our thighs.

Gin Stephens: That's where she's having the trouble.

Melanie Avalon: That's where it feels tight. I think that's probably what's going on is that you are gaining muscle in your legs.

Gin Stephens: She said her arms are quite muscular, she said.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, also that too. Yeah. Just as far as like, be getting bigger from an actual, size perception, changing how your clothes fit, that will probably happen in your thighs and your legs, which is what you're experiencing. It's possible that you just gained muscle, but also didn't really lose fat. So, your legs would just be-- I mean, they would just be getting bigger, that would just be understood. My suggestion would actually be because I am all for muscle, 100%. I think it's-- honestly, the more I researched the more experts I interview-- People don't really talk about this that much, but it's thought that insulin resistance actually starts at the muscle. It's the muscle that first-- I don't know if it's that the muscle becomes insulin resistant, or we lose muscle so we don't have a glucose sync, and so that becomes an issue but muscle is just so, so important for overall health.

What I would suggest actually is if you don't want this volume, so this bigger-ness and the jeans and everything like that, I would change the type of the exercise that you're doing. She said she's doing workouts, cycling, weight training, running, stairs, elliptical, kayak, swim. I don't know what type of weight training she's doing and stuff, but if she's doing the type of weight training that specifically, its purpose is to grow like your legs bigger with muscle, maybe don't focus on that as much, maybe focus on full body strength, maybe try yoga or something, something that will be more toning and supporting your current muscle, rather than necessarily building it per se. I think if you change the type of workouts you're doing--

Gin Stephens: Like a Pilates kind a thing maybe. Get long lean muscles.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, especially it sounds like she really likes working out. Just changing that-- Oh, and she's doing cycling.

Gin Stephens: This is the magic of human growth hormone. I'm serious. She's 51, putting on lean muscle. The more lean muscle that we can have as we age, the better.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is a good problem to have, I understand for your own personal preference that you don't aesthetically want it to be that way. Just change the type of exercise you're doing. But I would still support all of the strength exercise, just a different type. If she is doing the cycling, the hard type of cycling, that's going to build your thighs a lot. Speaking from experience, growing up, but yeah, awesome.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Laurel, and the subject is “Daily headaches while fasting.” She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Thanks for creating such a fabulous resource for intermittent fasting. I began IF in 2018 after having my daughter to lose the baby weight and never looked back. On average, I typically do 18:6 or one meal a day, with an evening eating window. I found recently that in the afternoons, I started getting headaches. They're not horribly painful, but more just uncomfortable and distracting. I know that I'm fat adapted because I've been eating a mostly ketogenic diet for years and have been doing IF for almost three years. I also drink tons of water during the day, usually around 70 to 80 ounces at least. I also noticed that these headaches disappear when I eat a snack. So, it's something food related, but I don't know why I'm getting headaches if I'm used to fasting. Do you have any ideas what might be causing these? As a side note, I worked out for approximately 30 to 40 minutes five to six times per week, early in the morning, doing cardio or strength training. Thanks for your help.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Laurel. Thank you for your question. I have two ideas of what this might be. The first one is what I think it more likely might be. I would place a bet on electrolytes being a thing, especially the more that I research electrolytes. I've been listening to a lot of Robb Wolf's interviews for his company, LMNT, which we have partnered with before. I just think electrolytes can be a huge issue for a lot of people, especially on keto diets, especially while fasting. The fact that it goes away when you eat would probably speak even more to that. What I would suggest doing, Laurel, if you go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, you can get a free sampler pack of LMNT. It includes four different flavors, they have way more than four flavors, but their sample pack includes four flavors. The raw unflavored version, which is included in that sample pack is clean fast friendly. I would get that, try that, and see if that resolves the headaches. I feel like it will. I'm feeling like it will. If it doesn't, then it's likely something else.

The other thing I was thinking it might be some sort of detox thing. It could be a recent exposure to something that you had, or it could be that you're going into the detox phase and something that you're detoxing is creating the headaches, and the reason that it goes away when you eat is that you're stopping your detox process. Those are my two thoughts. What do you think, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, the thing is that she's been doing this since 2018. I would say, okay, what is different now? I would find it to be very unusual that you've been fine since 2018, and now all of a sudden, your electrolytes are out of balance.

Melanie Avalon: I actually do, if I could just jump in really quickly, because that's one of the reasons they formulated it, is that they saw this a lot with people.

Gin Stephens: Like people were fine, and then all of a sudden, their electrolytes got out of balance?

Melanie Avalon: Well, for a lot of people, it's an issue right at the beginning, but for other people, it will become an issue later.

Gin Stephens: Why is that? Why does it become an issue? 2018 is a long time. She's not a baby faster. What would make someone who's been fat adapted since 2018 all of a sudden have trouble with electrolytes? I understand if she started a new workout regimen, and she's sweating more, or if it's like summertime. I can understand that, but that's where I'm puzzled.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not an expert on it. I can research this more but I imagine there are just so many lifestyle factors. Electrolytes are involved in so many things in our body.

Gin Stephens: Or, if she upped her water lately, that would do it.

Melanie Avalon: That was another reason I thought it might be that is that if she's upping her water.

Gin Stephens: Or even if she changed, maybe she used to be drinking San Pellegrino or a mineral water and now she switched to plain water. Maybe she's missing some minerals that she was getting or maybe she changed her salt that she uses. I don't know, I guess it could be something like that. Something may have changed, or something has changed. If you know suddenly she's having an issue, that's what I think with that. Also, Laurel, please do not assume that it's because of fasting. Even if every time you eat your headache stops, headaches that start out of nowwhere when nothing else has changed should not be ignored. I want you to go to your doctor and say, “Hey, I've all of a sudden started having headaches, and I didn't change anything else. Nothing is different.” There's likely-- there is a reason that you're having the headaches, and so it's time to get to the bottom of that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. I would definitely give you electrolytes a try as well. Oh, I forgot. I want to touch on the skin tags thing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Go ahead. I forgot to talk about that.

Melanie Avalon: I did too. Listeners might think that I'm going to say Beautycounter or something, but no. Skin tags, I think it's pretty well accepted that they are from insulin resistance.

Gin Stephens: Yes, they are. That's very commonly discussed.

Melanie Avalon: Aren't they benign tumors on the skin technically, isn’t that what they are?

Gin Stephens: I haven't thought about that. I don't know. I haven't read about what they are. I know that they are associated with insulin resistance. We hear it all the time that people lost their skin tags after they become more insulin sensitive after doing intermittent fasting. It usually corresponds like A1c going down and things like that. We have confirmation that their bodies are healing metabolically.

Melanie Avalon: It's awesome that they-- she said they were cleared up or gone.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they just fall right off. I've heard this hundreds, thousands of times, we've heard this.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. I didn't realize they did that.

Gin Stephens: They do. This is one of those things. You know how we talked last week about gallbladder? We don't hear that all the time, but we hear skin tags all the time. We know that is a thing. The next question we're getting ready to talk about also we hear, so we know it's a thing.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we can go right into that.

Gin Stephens: Alrighty.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Diane, the subject is “Hair Loss.” Diane says, “First, let me say I'm new to this, and I've learned so much from you, ladies, you're amazing. Please keep up the good work. My question is, if you're not doing keto, does one meal a day contribute to hair loss or thinning? I have hypothyroidism, so thin hair is an issue for me to start with. I do take super collagen with C and biotin, magnesium with a good multivitamin. To be honest, that's why I stopped doing keto was because my hair got so thin. I tried to eat a medium carb way of eating to avoid this. However, we keep trying to lose the weight to be healthy and look better but losing our hair definitely doesn't help that. I don't have this issue currently but I keep seeing posts in the One Meal a Day Facebook page, and this freaks me out to go through this again.”

Gin Stephens: The thing to keep in mind is that anything that your body perceives as a stressor can cause your body to begin the hair fall process. The name of that is telogen effluvium, if that is why hair falls out. If you are going through telogen effluvium, you may have hair fall issues from stress. It happened to me when I was doing the keto diet in the summer of 2014. My hair started falling out. Obviously, my body felt the keto diet was a stressor. Then I stopped doing keto, and my hair grew back in. Here's the thing though, I've done a good deal of reading about this, once the hair fall process starts, it's too late. It's already had the stress and it has to run its course. There's nothing you can do at that point to make it stop falling out, it just has to keep doing it. It just keeps pushing out those hairs and the new ones are going to come in, if that is the reason you're losing your hair. You said you're not losing your hair, Diane, but could intermittent fasting cause as well if your body perceives it to be a stress, it could, it could happen.

It's a two- to three-month process from the time the stressor. Really, if you see that your hair is starting to fall out, this for anybody, if your hair all of a sudden, starts to fall like crazy, count back two to three months and say what happened two to three months ago. It could be really anything. It could have been death of a family member, it could have been a serious illness that you went through. It could have been really radically changing your diet, like going keto. It could be starting intermittent fasting. By the time you notice it, it's already too late to stop it. That's what I have to say about that. It does grow back. I didn't mean to say that, sorry. It comes back. You just have to let it happen. What's funny, Melanie, I guess it's not funny, but even with me when I did it, I didn't really know what was happening. I was like, “Oh my God, keto’s make my hair fall out, I'm quitting.” You start taking things, like biotin, and all these things, and then you're like, “Look, it fixed my hair.” Well, actually, if you do nothing, your hair is going to start growing back.

Melanie Avalon: If you do nothing, and you have adequate nutrition.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's true. Yeah, what I'm saying is we were like, “Well, I started taking these hair and nail vitamins, that must have been the trick. Really, it's a process and you come out the other side.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to be interviewing an author named Ann Louise. I don't know how you say her last name. I think it's Ann Louise Gittleman. She's a New York Times bestselling author, but she has a new book coming out called Radical Longevity. She actually has a chapter just on hair. She talks about, Gin, what you just mentioned that the telogen, how do you say, effluvium?

Gin Stephens: Effluvium, is how I would say it. It could be totally different. When I look at, it look like telogen effluvium.

Melanie Avalon: Normal hair has two different phases. It has the antigen phase, and then that telogen phase. A normal hair when we're not experiencing this intense stress, she said, it lasts four to six years, and the antigen phase, and then for two to four months, it's in the telogen phase. The telogen phase after that is when it's shed, and when people get telogen effluvium, 70% of your hair around that switches over really fast to the telogen phase and it often happens after an intense stressor. That's why you automatically can lose all of this hair, which is very-- that can sound really scary, but it's reassuring in a way because it doesn't necessarily mean that you're destined to lose all your hair for life. It just means that those hairs switched over to that face, which is a phase, they're all going to hit at some point.

Gin Stephens: They do it sooner and at the same time, but it really is terrifying. I can remember how scary it was. I was like, “What is happening?” It comes out a lot when it's happening. Then for about a year, my hair looked thinner I have the photos of me going through that period of time, and then you get a lot of little baby hairs that start growing back in. That'd be a good time to get some bangs because you're going to have them anyway. [laughs] You get these little tiny baby hairs growing back. Now, my hair is thicker than ever. Did intermittent fasting make me have thin hair for life? No, actually, it was keto that was the stressor for me, but it can be anything like that, like I said.

Melanie Avalon: It's really reassuring because, again, it doesn't mean you're destined for that. The nutrition though, and the stress is key. In the priority list of processes in our body, our hair is not high on the priority list for our body to maintain. When we're in a really intense stress event, or if the fasting that we're doing is being perceived as too much of a stress, the hair is something that can be expendable. That's a reason that can happen. Important nutrition for your hair, you want to make sure that you have enough protein, adequate iron levels, zinc, B vitamins, essential fatty acids. I do think concentrated nutrition to support hair can be key, and likely, when you are growing it back, you want the nutrition to support it. Again, everything I just mentioned with the protein, a lot of people actually benefit a lot from bone broth, MSM, silica, of course, addressing your stress levels.

This also might be something where you could work with a practitioner and do nutrient testing to see if you're lacking in certain minerals or nutrients. We do know that she has hypothyroidism, so that is linked to hair issues. I mean, hair loss is one of the main symptoms I feel of hypothyroidism. It can also be hormonal, so that would be where you'd want to work with a practitioner familiar with hormones and addressing that.

Gin Stephens: Don't be afraid that it's going to happen. I don't want anybody listening, like Diane said, “It's not happening to me, but I thought that it could, and now I'm really worried about it.” Ironically, stressing about the stress could cause the stress that leads to the stress. So, nobody worry about this. Don't worry about it.

Melanie Avalon: One of my really good friends right now who's my age is experiencing this and I feel so bad for her. It's been wrecking her, the amount of stress that she has about it on top of it, but she actually ordered-- this is something that the clinical trials have shown. If you have a Joovv device or if you have red light therapy, you can use that. They also make actual caps that concentrate the red light on your head, and she actually just ordered one of those. I'm really excited to see if it helps her. You can also do microneedling with stem cells and that has been shown to help. Can be pretty expensive, but it's definitely something to look into.

Hi friends, Gin and I talk about the importance of gut health all the time on this show. You guys know, we are obsessed with the gut microbiome. There's also a lot of confusion out there, surrounding probiotics. There are so many different probiotics. It can be so hard to know what to take. I personally have actually experimented with a lot of probiotics over the years, a lot. You guys know me. Did you know there's only one probiotic that I have consistently taken almost every single day since I found it? It's a non-negotiable. I see such radical improvements in my gut health, when I take this probiotic, and it's not just me, you guys, and my audience tell me all the time about how you feel this way as well. That is P3-OM. What is P3-OM? It's a patented probiotic that actually eats up excess sugar, eliminates bad bacteria fast, and protects your gut from inflammation and viruses. What initially made me so intrigued by this probiotic is that it is proteolytic. Meaning, it can actually digest protein. I, even saw a video on the BiOptimizers website of the probiotic digesting a steak. Yes, a steak.

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And I have some fantastic news for you guys. You can get 10% off P3-OM right now, when you go to p3om.com/ifpodcast and type in the coupon code, IFPODCAST10. By the way, if you order it and it's not everything you hoped for, the BiOptimizers support team will give you all your money back, no questions asked. To get that discount, just go to p3om.com/ifpodcast to get a 10% discount on one of my favorite probiotics, P3-OM, with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. We'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Cindus. That's a beautiful name. Is that how you would say it, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I always think Cinda because of Cinderella.

Gin Stephens: She says, “I have a sensitive stomach. I've been trying to follow the low FODMAP, which is gluten free and no dairy products. Any recommendations? There is a lot of food that irritates me, I need to lose at least 50 pounds. Thank you, Cindus.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Cindus, thank you so much for your question. I'm actually pulling up my app right now because it's interesting because you said low FODMAP, which is gluten free and no dairy products. Dairy products are actually usually not that high in FODMAPs. That's a blanket statement, some are. I don't know if she's doing low FODMAP and no dairy, or if she's doing--

Gin Stephens: It sounds like she is. I think maybe I've read it with the wrong emphasis. She's doing low FODMAP, which is gluten free and no dairy products, I think I might have read the emphasis incorrectly.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. Recommendations, and she wants to lose at least 50 pounds. I will say that when you have a sensitive stomach and foods are being inflammatory for you. Actual fat loss aside, finding the foods that are not inflammatory for your body can actually have a huge effect on weight loss. That's exciting for two main reasons. One is that losing the actual water weight from the inflammation can be huge. Then also, an inflammatory state is counterproductive for weight loss just because of the signaling that's going on. So, I'm very excited for you, Cindus, to find the diet that works for you. My recommendations are to get my app. You can get that at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide because it has gluten, it has FODMAPs, it has 11 compounds total of foods that have compounds that can be potentially inflammatory for people, and then also has AIP, if you ever want to try an autoimmune paleo approach.

As far as how to approach this, when you're trying to figure out what foods are working for you, I think it can be very beneficial in the beginning to commit to the things that you want to test. If you're trying low FODMAP, do low FODMAP and know that it's going to be-- it might be temporary, it might not be for life, but it's just so that you can find those foods that are working for you, because when we're taking in a lot of factors when it comes to food, like a lot of different types of foods, it can be hard to ascertain what's working and what's not. If low FODMAP, gluten free, no dairy is what you want to try, then embracing it with excitement, get my app, find the foods that you love that fall within that category. Then research recipes for that. If you get my book What When Wine, I have 50 recipes in that book and a lot of them, they're all gluten free. Then they're noted if they're low FODMAP, and they are noted if they're dairy free, so there's ideas in there. You can join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, and ask in there for recipe ideas, but I always think of it is really exciting because it's like, “Oh, I find the foods that you love, I love these foods, and there's so many fun things that you can try.” You also might benefit from supporting digestion with HCl, depending on how your actual digestion is going down. That can help break down proteins and fats pretty well. Also, digestive enzymes can help a lot of people. We work with BiOptimizers a lot and they make a really good HCl supplement. They also make MassZymes supplement that might help. Yeah, there's a lot of potential. For a code for BiOptimizers, they are also a supporter on this episode. In the show notes, find the timestamp for the BiOptimizers ad and there'll be a code in there for a discount. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I got nothing else to add to that.

Melanie Avalon: Quick reframe for people with sensitive stomachs. You can get excited because you're like the canary in the coalmine, or your stomach is like the canary in the coal mine and your stomach is telling you right away that food is not likely benefiting your health. So, it can be a nice thing.

Gin Stephens: You're listening to your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Right. Shall we do one more question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. This question comes from Allie. The subject is “Autophagy and Me.” Allie says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I only recently stumbled upon your podcast and it is wonderfully informative. Thank you for all the information you provide during every show. I've been intermittent fasting since August 2020. I started IF not for the weight loss, but for the healing aspects. I am 36 years old and I have a rare autoimmune disease called granulomatosis with polyangiitis that I take medication for on a weekly basis. My end goal is to heal myself through IF so well that I won't need medication anymore. My question is, it seems in general, autophagy is not achieved unless a longer fast is done. That it is the next level unlocked after ketosis. I know I reach ketosis during my fast and I really want to help my body heal but I just don't want to fast for longer than 24 hours. It does not appeal to me.

Longer fasting seems to be the best route to obtaining autophagy. I usually fast for 20:4 every day and I feel it is a good balance for me. I know everyone's journey is different. I am wondering if my journey of self-healing can only be accomplished if I do a longer fasts such as 24 hours plus, healing occurs during ketosis. Autophagy on a whole different level of healing, my concern is that I'm not optimizing my best options to get to my end goal of no medications, just looking for the best route. Can I still reach autophagy level healing if I only reach ketosis level over an extended period of time, if that makes sense? For example, if I continue just doing 20:4 fasts every day, will eventually have the same amount of healing as if I were to incorporate a 24 plus hour fast into my routine once or twice a week? I know the longer I continue my IF journey, the more healing can happen. Will slow and steady win this race for me too? Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: This question, Allie, shows the level of confusion that's out in the world about autophagy. There's one graphic that is just so terrible that people have been sharing for years. It used to be a typed piece of paper and there’s was a photocopy everyone was sharing, or a screenshot of it or something. Then people made it pretty, it was the same exact information from that typed piece of paper, but someone made it into like graphics, and it said, “Autophagy begins at 24 hours.” That is not true. [laughs] Autophagy is not like that.

First of all, let's think about autophagy and what it is. It is the way our bodies scrounge around for old stuff hanging around when we've got no new things coming in. It's natural, it's what our bodies are supposed to do. Do you think that our bodies have processes in place that require us to fast for 24, 36, 48 hours? No. Our body is supposed to be able to do what it needs to do when it needs to do, just in and out. For some reason, the misconception here in your question is that there's a timeline like, “Oop, now I'm in ketosis. Oop, autophagy comes later.” That's not how it works. Autophagy and ketosis happen in the same state of nothing coming in.

Instead of a light switch, imagine you've got two dimmer switches, maybe and instead of just on off, it's like you're going up and down. Ketosis and autophagy are happening in the same state, they're not the same thing. Autophagy is one thing, ketosis is another thing. But when one is ramping up, the other is ramping up at the same time. Everybody experiences autophagy, even people who are not fasting. The misconception of unless you're fasting 24, 36, 48 hours, you have zero autophagy is so incorrect. But we have increased autophagy that goes along with the state of ketosis because they both happen when you get to that same state in the body, that fasted state when your body has to start rummaging around. Your cells start rummaging around for those junky proteins, that's autophagy. Your body starts to dig into your fat stores to fuel your brain, that's ketosis. But they're all happening at the same time. There was something else I was going to say, and I forgot what it was, but maybe I'll remember.

Melanie Avalon: It makes sense why she thinks this because it is the way it's put out there like you were saying. She thinks that it's ketosis, and then autophagy. When actually, if anything, it's the reverse because ketosis is not happening 24/7. Autophagy is happening 24/7.

Gin Stephens: That's true. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: There is some level of autophagy always happening.

Gin Stephens: But if you're eating all the time, it slows it down. Oh, I know what I was going to say, I thought of it. A lot of things increase autophagy, fasting is one of them. Coffee is linked to increase autophagy. Exercise is linked to increase autophagy. So, if you want to have increased autophagy, drink some coffee while walking on a treadmill during the fast, I'm making a joke there, but you get my point.

Melanie Avalon: I have written down. I had written down, exercise, coffee.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Yeah, I knew that I had something else in my brain. I'm glad I found that again.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners who are not familiar, we just jumped right into it. Autophagy is basically when your body finds old broken proteins in your body and basically breaks them down, recycles them, to create new things. It's a really great cleanup process for your body. Like we said, it's going on 24/7, to some extent. It just ramps up significantly with fasting, ramps up in exercise, coffee supports it. Everything Gin said is spot on and exactly what I was going to say. Only two things I would add would be, if you want to get heightened autophagy while still maintaining a 24-hour fast, you could do a day. She doesn't mention what she's eating. That was actually the second of the two things, so I'll just say them both.

She's talking about wanting to recover or put her autoimmune disease into remission, which I completely support, and I think that's wonderful, your goals about getting off of the medication. I don't know at all what you're eating, but I would make that a primary focus and the healing aspect. If it's just fasting, I don't know that everybody-- if they're eating foods in their eating window that are in favor of-- I don't know if encouraging is the right word, but encouraging the autoimmune disease. I don't know fasting alone would be enough to reverse it. So, I would definitely, definitely take a look at your food choices if you haven't already. Again, I already mentioned that app, Food Sense Guide, but it does have autoimmune paleo approach, which a lot of people find shocking success in reversing autoimmune conditions. So, that might be something to try. Again, the link for that is melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide. That was the one thing.

The second thing was, if you did want to get heightened autophagy, you could do a day where your eating window is very, very low protein. I'm not encouraging this please, listeners, friends. I'm not saying do low-protein diet in general. I'm not saying do this every day. I think a higher protein diet is super, super important for so many things, health, body composition, weight loss, just so many things, but the occasional day of very low protein will ramp up autophagy, especially if you're combining it with fasting. If you want to do a little hack and try to get an autophagy day without fasting longer, that's what I would suggest doing, especially since autophagy seems to be something she wants to play with. Any other thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that all sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes which I feel like are very important for today's show, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode210. You can follow us on Instagram, see my pictures of the cryotherapy. Oh, my goodness. You can see Gin's cats and Gin's food [laughs] and Gin's house. Yeah, anything else, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Apr 04

Episode 207: Gin’s New Social App, Whoosh Effect, Water-weight & Inflammation, T1 Diabetes, Energy Toxicity, Collagen, Vitamins, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 207 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

ASPIRATION: Aspiration is a new kind of financial partner that puts our customers and their conscience first. Get A $50 Bonus When You Create An Account With Today's Sponsor Aspiration. Go To joinaspiration.com/ifpodcast!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Delay Don't Deny Social Network

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #86 - Harpreet Rai (Oura)

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Listener Q&A: Jamie - Whoosh 

The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating (Gary Taubes)

Big Fat Keto Lies Book (Marty Kendall)

The Case for Keto by Gary Taubes – honest review

Listener Q&A: Daniela - Collagen/Vitamins

Aspen Naturals Grass Fed Bovine Collagen Peptides Powder

Aspen Naturals Marine Collagen

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Listener Q&A: Elizabeth - Starting IF After HCG

Follow Melanie On Instagram To See The Latest Moments, Products, And #AllTheThings! @MelanieAvalon

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 207 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I’m here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, Gin and I talk about the importance of gut health all the time on this show. You guys know we are obsessed with the gut microbiome. There's also a lot of confusion out there surrounding probiotics. There are so many different probiotics. It can be so hard to know what to take. I personally have actually experimented with a lot of probiotics over the years. A lot. You guys know me. Did you know there's only one probiotic that I have consistently taken almost every single day, since I found it? It's a nonnegotiable. I see, such radical improvements in my gut health, when I take this probiotic, and it's not just me, you guys, and my audience tell me all the time about how you feel this way as well. That is P3-OM. What is P3-OM? It's a patented probiotic that actually eats up excess sugar, eliminates bad bacteria fast, and protects your gut from inflammation and viruses. What initially made me so intrigued by this probiotic is that it is proteolytic meaning it can actually digest protein. I even saw a video on the BiOptimizers website of the probiotic digesting a steak. Yes, a steak.

P3-OM has also been shown to improve digestion, speed up metabolism, and increase energy throughout the day. What also makes it unique is that it can survive the gastrointestinal tract, and it goes through your whole body to support both your gut and your entire immune response. It's a secret weapon for reducing or eliminating bad gas and upgrading your immunity and protection against bad bacteria. It's personally one of my go-to tools in my biohacking arsenal. I have some fantastic news for you guys. You can get 10% off P3-OM right now, when you go to p3om.com/ifpodcast and type in the coupon code, IFPODCAST10. By the way, if you order it and it's not everything you hoped for, the BiOptimizers support team will give you all your money back, no questions asked. To get that discount, just go to p3om.com/ifpodcast to get a 10% discount on one of my favorite probiotics P3-OM with the coupon code, IFPODCAST10. We'll put all this information in the show notes. One more thing before we jump in.

Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare and makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol, so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift, that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fasting clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 207 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I’m Melanie Avalon, and I’m here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am worn out. I am riding high on a bunch of emotions, good emotions, scary emotions, all sorts of emotions.

Melanie Avalon: That's good.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Do you want me to elaborate a little bit?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, would you like to elaborate?

Gin Stephens: Well, we're recording this in mid-March. Yesterday, I finally announced to the public in the advanced group on Facebook, the project that I’m working on since the beginning of the year, and that was, I have launched Delay, Don’t Deny social network off of Facebook. It's a membership-based platform. Yes, members do need to pay to join. It's $4.99 a month. If you, what's the word, amortize your membership, it's $59.95 a year, and you join and that works out to $4.99 a month, if you join for the year as a founding member. Yes, it's a membership site. Now, we're all together, I have all the spinoff groups going on. It's hard to explain. I was letting people start spinoff groups. We had one spinoff group over there, and another spin off group over there, and I felt like I was losing touch with the community. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I didn't have time to manage-- Facebook takes a lot to manage groups. You have membership requests, you have posts to approve, you have people coming in, they don't know who you are, why they're there. It takes a lot of work to manage it. We've got over 100 groups on the new platform. The address is dddsocialnetwork.com. DDD for Delay, Don’t-Deny. dddsocialnetwork.com. Like I said, we have over 100 groups, and they're not all intermittent fasting. We've got groups for different fasting styles, one meal a day, alternate daily fasting, the hybrid approach, but we also have a paleo group, Melanie. We have a vegetarian group. No matter how anybody eats, we've got a group for it. We've got hobbies, we've got different exercise styles. We've got a group for people who are interested in starting podcasts and writers, because a lot of people in my community have started podcasts and written books, which is one of the things, I’m a teacher, nothing makes me prouder than seeing other people create content. Does that make sense? Like inspired, they're like, “Well, Gin did a podcast, I can do a podcast,” or, “Gin wrote a book and self-published it. Melanie wrote a book and self-published it, and I can do that too.”

I feel like in a way the Delay, Don’t Deny community has been an incubator for some of these amazing people that I've connected with in the groups. Graeme Currie, he's got a great podcast called The Fasting Highway, and he started off just in my group. He's written a book. He's from Australia. We'll have a group for people who want to do stuff like that, so they can connect and talk about platforms and the process. We even have a group about dogs and cats if you're a pet lover. [laughs] The tag line is we want to be your favorite social network, because we really do. We were on Facebook, we've been on it for so long, but it's gotten a little harder to navigate, and the artificial intelligence has gotten a little weird lately. Like over Christmas in the Life Lessons group, we had some weird, we got something that Facebook was like, “This post does not-- it goes against community standards. Please review it.” I’m like, “Oh, my God, that sounds so scary.” I went to review it, it was covered up with a mask and how Facebook will cover something. Have you ever seen that?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Well, if they think it might be questionable, they're like, “Click on it on your own risk.” I’m like, “What was someone trying to post?” I clicked on it to see what it was that was so questionable and objectionable. It was a Christmas bow tutorial.

Melanie Avalon: That’s strange.

Gin Stephens: The artificial intelligence called it drug paraphernalia, but it was bows made of raffia. The artificial intelligence is also picking up on certain words as hate speech and bullying, like one of the moderators got put in Facebook Jail for clicking on something incorrectly, and then she said, “Oops, I apologize. I must have fat thumbs.” They put on Facebook Jail and said it was hate speech. Clearly, it wasn't, fat thumbs is a saying.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't know there was a Facebook Jail.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've been In Facebook Jail before. I liked too many things too quickly?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the artificial intelligence--

Melanie Avalon: I've commented too much before.

Gin Stephens: Yes, the artificial intelligence looks for people who are doing things too rapidly. You have to take things slowly on Facebook. So, ever since then if I'd make a post and 100 people comment, I just want to go like, like, like, like, like, no, you cannot do that. I lost the ability to post for 24 hours, when I was in Facebook Jail that time. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's weird when it happens in your own group, like it's your group, because it's done that to me, I’m like, “Wait, but this is my group. I should be able to post whenever I want.”

Gin Stephens: You can't though. It's just a million little things like that. You hear stories. My friend Sheri that does the Life Lessons podcast with me. She has a friend, who was running a cooking group. It had like 10,000 members, was a cooking group. She woke up one morning, and her cooking group had been removed from Facebook, and she had been blocked from Facebook, like her account was deactivated, based on something that had happened in the cooking group overnight. I realized that we're at the whim of a platform. Now, I’m not knocking Facebook, because we have enjoyed being there for years and it has helped us grow this wonderful community. I will always have love for that platform, and what it allowed us to build. But at the same time, that terrified me that, I have that one group, the 300,000 plus member group that if something went really terribly wrong-

Melanie Avalon: Right, it could just disappear.

Gin Stephens: -it could disappear and I wouldn't be able to contact those 300,000 people at all. I don't have their email addresses, I don't know, would they ever find me again? I don't know. I’m one of those worst-case scenario people, like what could go wrong, always think about that. I’m like. “I don't want to lose this community that I've built.” We started the new platform, launched it yesterday-- Yeah, there's been some positives and some growing pains with it, not everyone was thrilled that I was starting a membership site, because people say-- well, rightly so, intermittent fasting is free and intermittent fasting continues to be free. However, starting a paid platform is very, very expensive, and Facebook is free, but why is it free?

Melanie Avalon: Ads.

Gin Stephens: It's got ads, they're selling you data, you're the product honestly. If you're on Facebook, you're the product and I’ve been okay with that for myself personally for all these years knowing that Facebook was looking at my data, and whatever, showing me ads, I lived with that for the free platform. But for me to have a platform, it is most certainly not free, because I’m not going to be selling your data and showing you ads, and there's a lot of costs involved in it, so it has to be paid. Anyway, I’m sad about any pushback, because I just made this fabulous community and I want everyone to be like, “Oh my God, I love it.” [laughs] So far, positive people are in there. We've got almost 1000 members on day two. It's just so exciting watching people find their community. Also, some of people that I know that had left Facebook for whatever reason, one of my trusted moderators who I love so much, he's a comedian, people may remember him, John McDonald from the Intermittent Fasting Stories Podcast. He left Facebook completely for personal reasons with his family, but he's joined the new platform. It's so good to reconnect with people that I had lost touch with, it feels amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I made a profile. I’m going to come in.

Gin Stephens: Well, people are waiting for you, because we made a Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast group.

Melanie Avalon: Group.

Gin Stephens: Yes. There's a group that you're in.

Melanie Avalon: Are there people in it?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you want to know how many members are in, I can tell you right now.

Melanie Avalon: How many?

Gin Stephens: How many people have joined it? Hold on, I got to pull up the-- We're also going to have an app. The app is not out yet. Right now, I'm on my iPhone looking at it. Let's see Melanie. but right now, it's pretty easy to use in mobile on the iPhone. Melanie Avalon, you've got 63 members.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Okay, now I am very much alert. I mean I was already alert, but let me go see.

Gin Stephens: Let’s see how many are on the Intermittent-- we have an Intermittent Fasting podcast group. Let me search for that one. Anyway, what I’m saying is, I’m certain that we probably have listeners, who are not on Facebook for whatever reason. Not everybody's on Facebook. My sister for example never joined Facebook ever, like ever, in her whole entire life never joined Facebook. From day one, she's like, “For some reason, I don't like that,” so she didn't join. People, that just never joined or didn't want to, we have a place for you now. We have 77 members right now in the Intermittent Fasting Podcast group. We can all get together there, and we also have something called the Podcast Enthusiasts Lounge, where you can go and talk about any podcast you want. If you say, “Oops, fat thumbs, I didn't mean to click that,” we don't even care. If you like things really quickly, go for it, like them as fast as you want.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting. Congratulations.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. Thank you. I didn't sleep last night, I tossed and turned, I thought, “Have I ruined-- Did I mess up? Is this wrong?” Like I said, I’m very much a people pleaser. I want to do things that make people happy. I’m like, “Look what I created for you. Aren't y'all excited?” “No, no, we're not excited. We hate it. Don't create this thing.” Anyway, ah, now I can take a breath, and the people that are there are very happy to be there, and the people who don't want to join, don't have to join. That's the thing,

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, friends, you can all join, we can put links to it in the show notes. That's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: That'd be awesome. dddsocialnetwork.com. It is very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I can't even imagine, the logistics and everything that you have to go through to do that, so it's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Well, setting up those groups was a lot. We thought about what would someone want? What could people want? We actually had a little survey and like, “If you were wanting to join a group, what would you want it to be?” I didn't tell anybody what it was. We got the ideas from members, and then we thought of more just on our own. We've got about 55 moderators/facilitators in there, plus a whole lot of members growing by the minute. I’m just very excited, because I love community. That's really it. The whole reason I started this with my first Facebook group back in 2015, before I'd even written a book, I didn't have a master plan, I’m going to write books, I’m going to have podcasts. No. I started a community, and that was the whole point of it. That's what I’m doing here. Everybody, you're welcome to join my community, I'd love to have you or don't join the community. Intermittent Fasting is still free. If you want to be with us on the platform, join us. I’m not closing down the Facebook groups, though I am going to be very busy with the new platform. The Facebook groups are still going. If you're a member, I’m not going to lock you out. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was going to ask you that if you're keeping--

Gin Stephens: I might not answer all as much, because I’m going to be on this new place, because these people have joined and I can just take a deep breath, I don't have to approve posts, I don't have to approve members. You just join, there you are, you can do what you want, you can come and go. You can join 100 groups if you want to.

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. You don't have to see what you don't want to see. In the advanced group, we've been talking a lot about Zoe, the Zoe app with the personalized nutrition and the gut microbiome testing and the CGM. Some people don't want to see that. They're like, “I’m really frustrated seeing all this talk about Zoe, because I just want to keep it simple.” Well, now you don't have to see it. You don't go to the Zoe group, but we have a Zoe group for people who do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense.

Gin Stephens: It does. I think it's nice. I’m so excited. Scared, yes, and excited. All the feels. I have all the feels. I have cried, I have laughed, I have cheered. I didn't sleep at all last night.

Melanie Avalon: Another reason, you know what happened last night?

Gin Stephens: The time change?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. That's when you realize you really are a night person. When you don't know the time change is going to happen, and then you get really confused, because all of a sudden, I was like, “Wow, that hour went by so fast.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, because you were awake?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I looked at the clock and it was 3:00, I was like, “What happened?” [laughs] Yeah, not a fan.

Gin Stephens: I really tossed and turn, because I started having doubts. Do you ever do that? Do you have doubts? I’m like lying on the bed, we had 400 and something members join yesterday, and I was having these doubts. I was like, “What have I done? What if everyone hates it? What if no one is there?” Anyway, but I woke up today, got refreshed, and I started reading what people had been posting, and seeing how they were joining the groups, and everyone was excited, and then people were coming in that I hadn't seen in a long time. It felt like a big party, that I’m like, “Okay, now I can relax,” except I had this book deadline. Why did I do this at the same time that I have a book deadline? I don't know, I might be crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have no comment. That was some [laughs] interesting choice of timing.

Gin Stephens: Well, all of a sudden, I had that thought in my head that something could happen to my group. I was panicked. I was like, “I got to protect these groups,” so that move to the front burner. Honestly, I really was like, “I've got to do this now,” because it's too late. If I don't, and then something happened, something's probably not going to happen. I know that it probably won't, but it could. Did you know they shut down a bunch of essential oil groups?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Like all in one fell swoop. One of my members was telling me about it. When somebody like, “Nobody's shutting down groups, unless they're bad, dangerous groups.” This girl was like, “Well, I was on a bunch of essential oil groups, and they all got shut down because Facebook decided essential oils were dangerous,” and maybe they are, if you use them incorrectly, but isn't fasting, kind of like that, too? Couldn't fasting be dangerous if you use it incorrectly?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The answer is yes. Google restricts what it shows you now when you search, it has chosen which health people they're going to show you in, which health people they're not going to show you based on certain criteria. I felt like we might have a tenuous existence on a platform, that we couldn't 100% count on tomorrow, I’m going to wake up and my groups are going to be there. I’m 99.99% sure tomorrow I’m going to wake up and my groups will be there. But once I had in my mind that maybe they wouldn't be, I’m sure the essential oil people didn't know they were all going to be gone. It's almost like I wish they had told them, “Hey, we're going to remove your groups and one month, you have one month to figure something else out,” that would have been a good thing. I would have-- if only.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that reminds me of a fun little fact I learned by listening to a podcast.

Gin Stephens: What is that?

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what the difference is between fear and anxiety?

Gin Stephens: Well, no.

Melanie Avalon: As it relates to this conversation?

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to hear though, because I think I have felt fear and anxiety.

Melanie Avalon: Fear is when you are aware of something bad happening, and you have the fear response. Anxiety is not knowing what is going to happen, and having the response, but then it's like, chronic, because--

Gin Stephens: I did have both.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I had fear because I saw people who were not happy with me. They were not happy that I would do this, and that really hurt my feelings, because I’m like, “Look, number one, it came from the place of, I don't want to lose our community, how am I going to keep that from happening, just in case,” but nobody's making anybody join it. I didn't click archive group on Facebook nearby, come over here. Didn't close the group. My wording may be when I announced it, gave people some things to worry about, because I said, “We're not sure the future of how these groups are going to work on Facebook,” because clearly, I’m one person. I can't be here and there and everywhere all over the place. [laughs] Sometimes, I have to eat, and sleep, and take a shower. We're not closing the groups down, but, yeah, I had fear from backlash, like I made a huge mistake. But then, I saw the love. There was so much love. This morning, I woke up to so much love and there's so much positivity surrounding the new community that I can just let the rest go. The fear is gone. I still have some anxiety, but no more fear.

Melanie Avalon: That is fabulous.

Gin Stephens: Yes. Anything new with you? I’m sorry. I just rambled for 18 minutes, but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The only thing is I never travel ever, and I travelled somewhere, and I lost my Oura ring.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. 

Melanie Avalon: I’m so sad. I'm so sad. I did something that I never do, because I don't-- We talked about this. You like jewelry, right?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wear earrings every day, and I have on my wedding ring every day.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I don't ever really wear jewelry. They have an Oura ring that has diamonds in it. I was like, “If I’m going to get one piece of nice jewelry that I wear every day of my life,” so I upgraded, and I got that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, and you lost it.

Melanie Avalon: No, I didn't lose that one. I lost the one I had. I decided to buy a new one, because--

Gin Stephens: I thought you upgraded to the really expensive one and then lost it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, I would be crushed.

Gin Stephens: That's what I thought you did.

Melanie Avalon: They're already pretty expensive normally, but yes. I think listeners think we get all the things for free all the time, but we don't. I have to purchase things. But that's how much I love it. I was like, it's not a question I’m buying a new one right now, and then I realized, I really want the one with the diamonds. I learned don't wear it on your ring finger, because then you look married or it looks like a wedding ring.

Gin Stephens: I probably would agree with that. I mean, unless who cares? Why do you care if people think you're married, right? That could be a plus.

Melanie Avalon: True.

Gin Stephens: Keep in mind. I've been wearing a ring on my wedding ring finger since I was 21. It's been a long time. 30 years I've had this ring on my finger.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It's ironic. I lost it, and I actually interviewed the CEO, again for Part Two episode a few days later. I’m airing it very soon, because I wanted it to be timely. If listeners are interested in Oura ring and learning more, I'll put a link in the show notes to that second interview that I just did with him.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. Today, I want to tell you about Prep Dish’s New Super Fast Menus. These are in addition to their three existing meal plans, keto, paleo, and gluten free. Instead of scrambling and spending every single night prepping meals, do all of your prep at once, and under one hour. You'll get delicious healthy meals on the table, even when you have limited time. If you've been a longtime listener, you know we're huge fans of Prep Dish. No more scrambling at each meal. Instead go into mealtime with a plan, like Melanie would say, “You've got this.”

Prep Dish subscribers now get four menus every week. Gluten free, paleo, low carb keto, and the new Superfast menus. Now, you can prep a whole week's meals in just an hour. You don't have to choose between meal prep and spending precious time with your family. With Prep Dish’s new Super Fast Menus, you get fast food, but it's homemade and healthy. If you've thought about trying Prep Dish but worried you wouldn't have time to do the prep, now is a great time to check out the free trial. The founder, Allison, is offering listeners a free two-week trial, and you can get that by going to prepdish.com/ifpodcast for this amazing deal. Again, that's prepdish.com/ifpodcast, and your first two weeks are absolutely free. Try it out, see what you think about the new Super Fast Menus, and then send us an email. Let us know, how you like it.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything fasting related?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Jamie. The subject is “Whoosh.” Jamie says, “When on average does someone, women get the whoosh effect, losing a bunch of weight at once, two weeks in and I've only lost one pound, where my husband has lost 17 pounds.”

Gin Stephens: All right. That's a great question. First of all, let's talk about what is the whoosh? We've talked about it before, but I want to talk about it again. The whoosh effect is when-- let's think about in our bodies biologically, we lose fat at a pretty slow rate, even if you're doing a complete fast, or you're eating nothing, your body probably is only going to lose about half a pound of fat a day max really for fat burning. Keep that in mind. That's like we're not usually losing about half a pound of fat a day with doing an intermittent fasting lifestyle. Let's say, you get on the scale and you don't see your weight change, you don't see your weight change, you don't see your weight change, you don't see your weight change, and then you get on one day and it's down five pounds. Did you just lose five pounds of fat overnight? No, you did not. You had a whoosh.

You had lost fat slowly, but something was hiding that fat loss. We were pretty sure that your body does something with water during the fat loss process, but not everybody has the same experience. Some people never whoosh. They just have a slow and steady down, down, down over time. They have this nice little graph, they're pretty linearly down. Most people don't, but some people do. Whereas someone who whooshes might look more like a stair step, where you have it's just the same, the same, the same, the same and then down. Then the same, the same, and same and then down, like that. I mean, you might zigzag up and down. I tended to have the pattern where I would go way down, and then I would go back up a little and stay there for a while, then I would go way down, then I would go up a little. Mine’s like the stock market's going down a little bit. Why does this happen?

As I said, we have the theory that it's something to do with water balance, because people will notice, maybe they have to get up in the middle the night to go to the bathroom a lot, and then the next morning they're lower. The water is coming from somewhere. There's one theory that I don't think is true, and that theory is that the body is actually putting water in your fat cells. I haven't been able to find any scientific basis for that, and I've heard scientists who are smarter about the body than me saying, “No, that's not what's happening.” Could they be wrong? Could that be what's happening? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: One of the ones that sounded plausible to me was I think the glycerol. One thing I was reading online, his theory was that fat when we break it down, it breaks it down into glycerol. Is it fatty acids and glycerol? I think so. He says it takes a while for the body to process glycerol and glycerol attracts water.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: It's like you burning the fat, you burn the fatty acid part of the fat-- and I might be wrong with a fatty acid is the other component, I think it is. Then the glycerol takes backlogs and as we process, in the meantime, it's stored with water or attracts water.

Gin Stephens: It's not happening in the fat cell, right?

Melanie Avalon: I’m not sure where the glycerol is?

Gin Stephens: Something's happening with water, we know that. [chuckles] It's somewhere. I also have talked about it before here, I have a hunch. It could be in your lymphatic system, which is the body's sewage system, because as you're clearing out a fat cell, fats not the only stuff that's in there, you've also got a lot of toxins and weird stuff that your body shoved in there. You shove junk under your bed, your body shoves junk into your fat cells when it doesn't know what else to do with it. Toxins do come out, and your body has all that going around in your lymphatic system, and then it can flush it out all at once. You may have puffy fingers, we've all experienced this, puffy ankles, your face might be puffy. That's water retention happening in your tissues, and then whoosh, you wake up and that's gone.

Jamie, not everyone gets a whoosh. Don't expect you're going to get one. But let's address the fact that you're two weeks in and you've only lost one pound. If you think back to the 28-Day FAST Start-- if you read Fast. Feast. Repeat, in the 28-Day FAST Start, I’m very, very emphatic about do not expect any weight loss for the first 28 days, because the first 28 days are the time for your body to adjust to the clean fast, and that's it, your body's not great at tapping into fat stores yet. It may lose a great deal of inflammation, like with your husband with 17 pounds in two weeks. He did not lose 17 pounds of fat in two weeks. I know that we would like to, we don't lose fat that quickly. But even if that's a lot of that's inflammation of water weight, 17 pounds is a lot of mass. Imagine how good it would feel to lose 17 pounds, whatever it is, water weight, inflammation, I know he feels better, but we don't lose fat that quickly.

Just understand that your body is doing what it's doing behind the scenes, and the scale doesn't always reflect that. The scale can go up because of water, it can go down because of water. It can go up if you're gaining fat, but it can go down if you're losing fat, but it can also stay the same while you're losing fat because you're also regaining water. The scale can really just confuse you.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, 100%. Did you read Gary Taubes, The Case for Keto?

Gin Stephens: No, I read Marty Kendall’s critique of it. I really like Marty Kendall. By the way, Marty, we talked about him on the podcast. I think that came out maybe last week, we're recording. It's several weeks ago in podcast world land, but in the real world, it was like last week. Marty listened and he was like, “Oh, thank y’all for talking about me.” Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: On our show?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, when we talked about Marty Kendall and his Optimising Nutrition site, but I read Marty Kendall’s blog post about The Case for Keto.

Melanie Avalon: I finished his book about it. So good. So good. I'm like three fourths of the way through, Gary Taubes.

Gin Stephens: He's coming on your podcast, right?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I’m so excited. I want to air them back-to-back, like air Marty's and Gary's. I don't know what order I put them-- I guess it depends how that conversation goes.

Gin Stephens: I’m going to tell you Marty Kendall is brilliant, and you would think by reading-- he has a book called Keto Myths or something. You would think by reading the title of whatever, I can't remember the name of--

Melanie Avalon: Big Fat Keto Lies.

Gin Stephens: Yes, Big Fat Keto Lies, you would think by reading it, he was anti-keto, and he's not. He is busting some keto myths, like if you're having trouble losing fat, eat a lot more fat. He's saying some things that need to be heard in the keto community. I actually think some people are listening. One of the big guys, I can't remember which one of my moderators showed me one of the big keto people, might have been the Diet Doctor guy, the guy who runs Diet Doctor. He was somebody really big, well known. I just can't remember, my brain is full. Made some post, I don’t know if it was a tweet, I don't know where it was, but she showed me a screenshot of it, where he said that, he had lowered his fat intake or something and increased his protein. He was getting leaner than ever, he’d stopped eating so much fat. I’m like, “That's huge.”

Melanie Avalon: I think it's one of the biggest misconceptions. This is something I’m going to ask Gary, this is the question I want to ask him, because it's probably the biggest takeaway I took from Marty. It’s the biggest paradigm shift I had about insulin after reading Marty's book, and now reading Gary's book. He talks about this completely, but he doesn't draw the same conclusion and it's really haunting me, and it's the fact that this has made me completely rethink insulin, its main purpose is not to store fat. Marty talks about this, which I'd never realized before.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's antilipolytic, which means if you have high insulin, you're going to have a hard time burning fat.

Melanie Avalon: Its main purpose is not to store fat. Its main purpose is to stop fat from being released. It's putting on the brakes--

Gin Stephens: To fat release. It's putting the brakes rather than shoving it in. That's a very good point. We read so many times that people are saying insulin is shoving the fat in or shoving sugar in something.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it could because its main purpose-- and this is something that Marty pointed out that I hadn't really thought of. Fat doesn't elicit at all or barely any of an insulin release, and so they reached the conclusion that because it doesn't release insulin that it's not easily stored as fat. What Marty argues is the reason it doesn't release insulin is, because it doesn't need insulin to be stored as fat. It was just the complete opposite idea of what people are drawing the conclusion from. They're saying, “Oh, unlimited fat because it doesn't require insulin.” Right, it doesn't require insulin because it just gets stored without it, which is huge. Basically, insulin’s purpose is to deal with the toxicity of sugar in the bloodstream. If insulin wasn't there, we would just be burning fat and then we'd have an overload of fuel in our bloodstream, and so when we eat carbs, the body needs to burn it immediately, because too much sugar glycates and is toxic. It needs to shut down all other potential sources of fuel going into the bloodstream, which is from our fat cells and from the storage of carbs. Insulin is just closing the doors.

Gin Stephens: The traffic cop saying no.

Melanie Avalon: I've been thinking about it. It's like if you live in an apartment, I've been thinking about this, and the hallway is your bloodstream and then the doors to all the apartments are your fat cells and normally the doors are open and stuff is going in and out of the rooms, but once carbohydrates enter the bloodstream, insulin is like, “Nope, shut all the doors so that nothing else can come out and we can just deal with this these carbs right now.” What I want to ask Gary, and it helps me articulate this, because I've been thinking about this, but I haven't said it out loud and I want to like--

Gin Stephens: Well, it's also very interesting.

Melanie Avalon: The thing that I want to ask him about is, I mean, he gives that length-- It's basically, if anybody's read any of his books--

Gin Stephens: They're long.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Like, I said, I went on a trip this week, it was a four-hour drive both ways, I listened to the audiobook as much as I could both ways, and I was like, “I filled my Gary Taubes quota for quite a while.”

Gin Stephens: Does he read it himself?

Melanie Avalon: No, he doesn't. He's an investigative journalist. He's not a scientist. He's rather telling the history of all of these things. He makes a very good point that actual scientists-- and now I’m going on tangents, but scientists and nutritionists and doctors don't normally ever study the history of everything in detail, because they don't have time, they don't think it's relevant, but he's saying that, “You can't really understand a subject until you know the history of how it got there,” so, that's what he's doing. In any case, with the insulin, he [unintelligible [00:38:32] idea that it stops fat cells from releasing their fuel, but he'll also say a lot throughout the book that the misconceptions we have and how we've oversimplified calories in, calories out, and we say it's just about calories and really it's about insulin, it's really complicated, it's really nuanced, but I feel the simplistic statement he still continues to make is that insulin leads to fat storage. I'm not articulating this well. The insulin is required for fat storage, like that idea still comes through.

Gin Stephens: Okay, yeah, insulin is antilipolytic. It's anti-fat burning. If you want to tap into your fat stores, you don't want to have high insulin, but that doesn't mean you're storing, you're just not burning.

Melanie Avalon: I need to relisten or reread one part, because there's one part where he specifically says this, but I don't know if he's saying it or he was quoting somebody else, but it was the theory that you can't store fat in the absence of insulin, which just seems to not be true. The takeaway that I’m having right now is-- I don't even know if this is worth pondering, but, because he's trying to deconstruct the calories in, calories out model, I don't know if you are at a genuine calorie deficit even with high insulin. Do you think you can gain weight? Maybe you can't ever burn weight.

Gin Stephens: If nothing is coming in, what are you storing the fat--? What's it being made of? We don't create fat out of thin air. Our bodies don't just create fat out of thin air, It's something comes in, our bodies do something with it and store that as fat. Maybe it was fat already, and we just shoved it away.

Melanie Avalon: What I’m thinking is it seems like insulin could make it impossible to burn fat, so you could not possibly lose weight at a calorie deficit, because of high insulin. But I don't know if you could gain weight at a calorie deficit and high insulin, because if you are literally taking in less energy than you're burning, I don't know how you can have a net gain, even if-- I don't know.

Gin Stephens: You were talking about based on what the metabolism is doing. You couldn't.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, your metabolism could slow down.

Gin Stephens: Right, but if you're still burning more than that slowed metabolic rate, I don't think it's possible. No, I don't think so, that wouldn't make sense. The one thing to keep in mind though, let’s think thing about type 1 diabetics. Their bodies are not making insulin, they were unable to gain weight at all. Low insulin, because they're not making it, unable to gain weight. See, that's one of the big examples Fung uses, I think I used it, you hear it so much. That's why we know that high insulin is related to storing. It's a storage hormone.

Melanie Avalon: To clarify, it definitely encourages the storage of carbs as glycogen.

Gin Stephens: People who had type 1 diabetes before anybody knew what type 1 diabetes was, they would just waste away and die because they didn't have enough insulin. Because they could not, no matter how much they ate, their bodies couldn't store anything away. So many questions, so many complicated things going on. Here's what we need to know. The takeaway is we want to keep our insulin low. That's good, but also fat is not free.

Melanie Avalon: So far what I've read, that’s his thesis.

Gin Stephens: His takeaway is fat is free?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I haven't gotten to that yet, if he does say that. His takeaway is that-- I really like this idea, that everybody has a personal insulin threshold, and that if you're at that insulin threshold or below it, you'll be able to burn fat, but if you're above it, you won't be able to.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I 100% can buy into that theory, because I don't even know if that's like a-- I think that's true. I don't think it's under question. I think that is a fact. It explains-- I’m sure that I had really high insulin for so many years when I was overweight and having trouble gaining weight, and then, Chad, my husband always been slim, I’m sure he's always had low insulin. We had our insulin tested last year. Mine is low now, thanks to fasting, but Chad's was slow. His was lower than mine. I’m like, “Well, no wonder he never gained weight.” His body just makes less insulin. He's not like diabetic, but his body makes less insulin than me. We all have a different threshold with what our body's going to do based on the amount of insulin we have in our fasted insulin level.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he talks about while fasted, if you release insulin, and how one person, they can think about something really delicious and yummy, and they don't get ravenously hungry, it doesn't make them-- they can handle it, they don't feel they have to have it and they're not craving and shaky and another person does have that response. He was saying that it's from this cephalic insulin, basically in our brain, and depending on your basal insulin, that may or may not be enough insulin release to put you over your personal insulin threshold. If you're wavering around your personal insulin threshold or if you're already past it, and then you think of something really delicious, then your brain releases cephalic insulin, which is basically some insulin that's primed and ready just to be released, and that might be an--

Gin Stephens: It's anticipating food’s coming in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Then it releases that, and then that puts your personal insulin threshold high enough that, it just shuts off the fat cells’ ability to release fat, so then you're not giving any fatty acid fuel. It's really interesting. I’m really excited to interview him.

Gin Stephens: One thing that Marty really helped me understand-- also with Zoe, if I put together Marty and Zoe, it really helps me understand a lot about my body. Marty talks about energy toxicity and having too much energy in your blood, whether it's fat or ketones or glucose. You're having a lot of energy in your bloodstream from any source is not good. I never did feel well when I did keto, that summer of 2014. I felt awful the whole time. I also felt very inflamed and puffy, and I just didn't feel good. Zoe taught me, when I did the study with them, that my body doesn't clear fat quickly. They tell you that if your body doesn't clear fat quickly, then too much fat is inflammatory for your body. I’m like, “Well, that makes perfect sense.” It explains why I didn't feel well when I was doing keto, because I was taking in a whole lot of energy, my body didn't clear it very quickly, and so I’m sure I had a ton of fat circulating in my bloodstream that I was taking in, and I wasn't clearing it. Of course, I also didn't release any fat. I didn't lose any weight. All those butter coffees I was chugging, they were keeping my energy levels topped up in my bloodstream, my body had no need to release any fat.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, speaking of, since we recorded last, I did release that episode with Dave Asprey speaking of butter coffee. Listeners, I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. You can check that out. I think my favorite chart-- because Marty has a lot of really great charts in his book, my favorite one is the one that shows “preferred order of burning different fuels.”

Gin Stephens: By the way, I like Marty so very much that even in the new platform, the DDD Social Network, I have a data-driven fasting group over there. For anybody who's following Marty, because a lot of my people have followed Marty, especially since I interviewed somebody on the podcast that talked about him, and then I interviewed Marty. It hasn't come out yet. A lot of people were like, “Hey, I want to learn about that.” Anyway, so data driven-fasting in the DDD Social Network.

Melanie Avalon: This is not the full chart. The full chart is on a different page. The full chart that I saw included alcohol and ketones, I think the order was-- when alcohol and ketones were included, I think it was alcohol and ketones, and then, which is the order of that the body preferentially burns the fuel substrates in our body. I think it was alcohol and ketones, and then glucose in your blood, and then liver and muscle glycogen. I have to ask him about that, because I don't think muscle glycogen would be right there. I think that's incorrect. Then, free fatty acids in your blood and then body fat. So, body fat is basically at the very, very, very last resort.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, our body doesn't want to dig in. I love Jason Fung’s analogy that it's in the freezer in the basement. I’m not going to go down to that basement freezer unless I have to. That's the body to not wanting to-- but it's there, we can get to it if we have to. We just have to give the right environment for the body to tap into your fat.

Melanie Avalon: 100%.

Gin Stephens: Not as easy as it sounds though. [laughs] Ready for the next one?

Melanie Avalon: Sorry for the tangents. Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: No, it was good. I think it's all been very interesting. We have a question from Daniella. The subject is “Collagen/Vitamins.” She says, “When breaking a 19- to 20-hour fast, can I start with my collagen supplement which is powder in water, and gummy vitamins? Please don't judge a grown woman taking gummy vitamins, laugh emoji.” [laughs] I will not. No judging.

Melanie Avalon: Great question, Daniella. The very short and simple answer is yes. The longer answer is, it's a good thing to clarify. I think collagen is something, especially people that are new to fasting, think that it might be something that they can take, while fasting especially, because it's often, “prescribed” to take it the way she's taking it like in water. Collagen is definitely something that’s not fast and friendly. It's a protein, and amino acid, it's going to definitely, definitely break your fast.

Gin Stephens: People like to start in coffee. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I think Dave started that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, did he?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I think way back in the day, because I remember reading him writing about it and he was saying for women in particular it was a good thing.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. It's like, “Why’s everybody wanted to put this in their coffee?”

Melanie Avalon: The good thing about collagen though is, it's very nourishing to your gut. It's actually a really wonderful time to take it right when you're breaking your fast, like Daniella is, and then same, it's fine to take the gummy vitamin. I’m not a huge fan of multivitamins in general. I think, it's better to target specific nutrients. There's so much complexities to vitamins that-- it's hard to find a vitamin that you know is actually doing what you want it to be doing, but that aside, it's fine. Yes, Gin, thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. I was just thinking, I’m really hungry and I was like, “Why am I so hungry?” Then, I realized it's 3 PM but my body-- Wait, we sprung forward. See, I get so confused with the time change.

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: It's only 2 PM to my body. Then why am I so hungry? Okay, sorry. I just got really hungry.

Melanie Avalon: All the emotions, or all of our talk?

Gin Stephens: Maybe, the stress. I also didn't eat a lot yesterday that must be why. My body might need two meals today. I’m just all of a sudden really starving. All that delicious collagen discussion.

Melanie Avalon: Might have been that cephalic insulin response.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, but all of a sudden, I was like, “I need to eat some food right now.” Anyway, I’m going to go eat some eggs on toast, that sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Next question or do you have thoughts about--

Gin Stephens: No, I really think that's it. I don't take collagen. I sometimes wondered if I’m missing out, because so many people take it, but I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: It can do really wonderful things, especially if you are trying to grow your nails and hair, and then heal your gut lining. It can be really great.

Gin Stephens: Well, I’m of the age where collagen production in our skin goes down, and we start to look saggy. I mean, that's just part of the hormonal changes of being in the postmenopausal years. We've all seen those amazing grandmas on the beach rocking their bikinis, but they're all saggy. I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to have to start to get some collagen maybe,” or I'll just embrace the sag, I don't care.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I think the probably the most important thing about collagen is, it's really important the amino acid balance of the meat that we eat. Today, we tend to eat basically muscle meat, so chicken breasts and lean steak, or even fattier steaks, if it's not shank or something like that. Historically, we probably would have been eating more of the whole animal and getting collagen, which is really important for an anti-inflammatory/amino acid ratio, and building your gut like I said.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it may be time, but I will keep it in my window. I don't know why I just can't think of the idea of powder and water. Can you take it in like a pill? That's what I’m going to look for. I don't know. I don't want to dissolve anything in water.

Melanie Avalon: When I took it, of course, I just would eat it with my food, I thought it tasted really good. It’s really important in my opinion to get grass-fed collagen. We can put the link in the show notes to some brands that I like.

Gin Stephens: I don't know why, I have a mental thing against it, like I feel it's going to be gross. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. I love the way it tastes, but I’m weird.

Gin Stephens: I did eat bone marrow, when I was in Charleston.

Melanie Avalon: Was it delicious?

Gin Stephens: Oh, my Lord. It was good. It was at this little restaurant on King Street in Charleston. Man, it was good.

Melanie Avalon: It's one of those things where if you haven't tried it, it might sound gross, or it might sound like, why would you want to eat that?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was scared of it, but everybody raved about it on all the reviews.

Melanie Avalon: It tastes like heaven.

Gin Stephens: It was so good.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, we agree on a food. [laughs] It's hard to describe the taste. It just tastes like-

Gin Stephens: This is some kind of bone marrow pudding. It was like a bread pudding made of bone marrow.

Melanie Avalon: If you go to Whole Foods or something you can get--

Gin Stephens: Can't.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, you can get bones or you can get cuts that have the bone in it, like a shank cut and it'll have that marrow and if you cook it like normal, then you could just eat them marrow plain. It just tastes, oh, my goodness, amazing.

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All right, now back to the show. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: This comes from Elizabeth, and the subject is “Starting IF After HCG.” Elizabeth says, “I've read both Delay, Don't Deny and Fast. Feast. Repeat. I discovered you while in the midst of a round of HCG. I am sure IF is for me. My HCG ends this week. My question is, do I need to do the follow-up protein diet and reintroduce carbs, before starting IF, or can I go right to IF after my three days after HCG?”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a great question, and I do want to say, I’m really glad, Elizabeth, that you found us even in the middle of HCG, but I do not recommend HCG. I mean, honestly, you didn't know that because you were already doing it before you found us. I’m not saying, you shouldn't have done it, because you can't go back in time. Does that make sense? [laughs] For anyone who has not done HCG, I highly, highly would not recommend that you do it. I certainly tried it back in my diet days. I didn't do the drops, I did the “Go to the doctor, get the prescription, take the injections,” because the theory made so much sense. It was you're going to tap into your fat stores, because you're using this pregnancy hormone, your body thinks you're pregnant, so that it's going to help you tap into your fat stores better and it does something to your hypothalamus. That's the theory. Keep in mind, this was a long time ago that I was doing this. I was desperate to lose the weight. I was obese, so I get it.

Everyone who has tried these things like HCG, I tried them. I've done them. I lost a lot of weight doing it. Then, that was when I really started the diet yo-yo after that. The diet pills really got me, and I got those from my doctor too. The doctor prescribed diet pills, regained the weight, then I did HCG, got that from a doctor, lost a lot of weight, regained the weight, but then I was really like obese and struggling. It's not supposed to damage your metabolism, but I don't agree with that. I don't think that's true. I think that theory, just on my own personal response, I don't think that it's true. I think it tanked my metabolism, because suddenly, I gained way past any setpoint I'd ever had before, and I was over 200 pounds for the first time ever. Before all the crazy diets, I was hanging out around 160s as my upper limit. Then, I did all these crazy diets with the diet pills and the HCG, and then all of a sudden, my setpoint is now 200 or 180, in that range.

It definitely harmed my body long term. Thank goodness, I think intermittent fasting helped me reverse it. If it were me, Elizabeth, if I were finishing HCG right now today, and discovered intermittent fasting in the middle of it, I think I would go straight into the eating window approach, because you've already been eating practically nothing. Gosh, actually see, I don't know, because I’m thinking maybe the alternate-day fasting approach would be a good one for her, because her metabolism is probably slow. So you want to boost it again. I would probably, I don't know, you've already been eating a very tiny amount. Those are down days. I might would do alternate daily fasting. Down day, up day, down day, up day. As far as are you're going to reintroduce carbs, I don't know. The original doctor that created this protocol, Dr. Simeons, did have you restrict carbs, but I don't know that was like the magic. I think that just kept you from “regaining” that water weight because you lose a lot of water when you're doing a really restrictive diet like HCG. Then carbs, you eat carbs, and it causes your body to retain water. It's like rapid weight gain, but really, it's like a lot of water. Restricting the carbs as you ease back into eating would keep that from happening, which is what he wanted you to do.

Then, he wanted you to crash diet if your weight went up, like eat a tomato or something or have a tomato and steak day or some crazy nonsense like that. If your weight went up, you're supposed to have a steak day. Eat tomatoes all day and need a big steak or fast all day and then eat a steak, I can't even remember.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it's a one meal a day steak.

Gin Stephens: With just a steak.

Melanie Avalon: It's like carnivore one meal a day.

Gin Stephens: Maybe, that could be it. I think that actually is, but that's the super-duper crash diet. I am not judging anybody who does it, because I did it. I’m just going back and giving my back in the past self, giving her a hug.

Melanie Avalon: The interesting thing about HCGs, the macros of it are very similar to protein-sparing modified fast, which Gary actually talks about in his book about basically being the only “crash diet” that actually pretty much consistently always works because I think HCG is, isn't it like 500 calories of basically protein?

Gin Stephens: A day, yep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If it were me, I would probably just jump into IF, but maybe start with a longer eating window and making sure that you're eating a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, maybe so, because I was thinking about that too. I almost went that direction. It's hard to know either way, coming from the perspective of your metabolism slowed after all that crash dieting.

Melanie Avalon: I just feel I need to be saying this more when we're getting questions especially from people who are hungry or trying to boost their metabolism, focusing on protein I think is so, so important. That's another one of the Big Fat Keto Lies that Marty talks about, is people think fat is satiating, protein is the macronutrient that is most satiating. I think focusing on protein can be really, really important for boosting metabolism and for weight loss, because it's the best of both worlds in that regard, and that it fills you up the most of any food, but it's not very likely to be stored as fat like we don't preferentially store protein as fat. Oh, actually, I don't know if it was in Marty's book. I think it was Marty's book. He mentioned a study about whey, and even in a study where they added in excess calories through processed whey protein, excess calories, the participants did not gain weight from it which I actually would have thought maybe they would when it's fat processed.

Gin Stephens: Because it was whey.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it's whey, which is very--

Gin Stephens: Dairy droved.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's growth promoting. Protein is a really good macronutrient to focus on if you're trying to lose weight, trying to be full. It's probably why I’ve been eating such a high-- I eat such a high protein diet for so long. But yeah, I will probably just jump into IF with a longer eating window. Especially if you're worried about gaining back a lot of weight after that, that's another reason I would really focus on protein. So, I would encourage you, Elizabeth, not to go crazy, and if you're eating tons of carbs and tons of fat, it's very likely that you might gain back a large part of-- not just water, you might gain back in fat a large part of what you lost. If you want to maintain whatever you did lose, I would really focus on protein and then looking at your macros.

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't just reintroduce all the things. That's a tricky one.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I’m glad that you found us, Elizabeth, that makes me really-- or Beth. She goes by Beth. I’m glad you found us, Beth, and don't be scared if your weight goes back up a little bit, don't blame the intermittent fasting. Blame the HCG and know that it's going to go back up a little bit, and then it might take a little while longer for you to actually start burning fat well and start really losing more weight, just because your body's got to learn to trust you again. You definitely don't want to do intermittent fasting in a way that's also overly restrictive. That won't be helpful. Can I get something off my chest real quick?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: I’m so frustrated by the whole women shouldn't do intermittent fasting at certain times of the month or we’re too fragile a flower to do intermittent fasting. That is really becoming more and more out there as just common knowledge, but I don't think it's true. I think women should not be overly restrictive with their diet. The fact that all of a sudden, we're like, “Well that means intermittent fasting is out,” intermittent fasting that is overly restrictive is the problem, but that doesn't mean no woman should ever do intermittent fasting during our cycles. I don't know. Maybe they haven't eaten with me. I eat a lot of food. [laughs] Nobody's telling those women not to do a 1200 calorie a day diet. That's overly restrictive, a traditional diet.

Melanie Avalon: I agree as well. I was also just thinking one of the other things people say. People say it's too hard for women especially to eat enough protein. I was just thinking about. It's probably really hard if you're not focusing on protein and so you're eating a lot of fat with it, or a lot of-- carbs might make it easier to a lot protein, but I think people focus so much on fat a lot of the times that that would make it harder to eat a lot of protein.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just over-restriction is really hard on a woman's body. Over-restriction is hard on our body. But to then say, “Well, then women shouldn't fast certain times of the month,” I don't buy that argument. Even though some really well-known voices that I respect are starting to say that more it's common knowledge, I disagree. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I don't feel good when I’m not doing my fasting. This is me personally. I don't feel it helps my hormones. I feel much better hormonally during my fasting window, like hands down. But everybody's individual, that said, I do think there might be some women who do better with--

Gin Stephens: Yep. Particularly if they struggle with eating sufficiently, because they've trained themselves to be a dieter for example, and they're a restrained eater. If someone eats like a bird, tiny little amounts of it, maybe they just naturally can't eat a lot at one time. Okay, then they might need a longer window. It's not the fasting that's the problem, it's the fact that you can't eat enough food within your eating window, like that person shouldn't then try to do one meal a day in a one-hour window. I wouldn't recommend that. If you're eating this tiny little amount of food, that's not good for you, it's over-restriction. We don't want to over-restrict our bodies, women.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: But that doesn't mean that fasting is over-restriction. That's the part that I keep getting frustrated about. Assuming that fasting means over-restricting, and it does not to me.

Melanie Avalon: They're not synonyms.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: They are often posited as such.

Gin Stephens: Well, they are. There's this whole complicated graphic that people are now sharing that came from somewhere, and I know where it came from, not going to say, but it's like, “Here's how you fast every week of your cycle.” I’m like, “No, you might have a hungrier day. Listen to your body, do it.”

Melanie Avalon: That sounds really complicated.

Gin Stephens: It does. I don't know that there's solid science of why you would do that. Other than, yeah, your body might need more nutrients at a certain time of your cycle. My body was always good at telling me that, I can remember-- back earlier and before I got on this side of menopause, I remember, when I was doing intermittent fasting and losing weight, there'd be a day and I'd be like, “Oh my God, I’m so hungry today. What's wrong? I just ate and ate and ate and ate and ate and why am I so hungry and then?” Then, boom, the next day, I would have the reason why I would know. Every time it was a mystery. [laughs] Every month, I was surprised that I was so hungry. My body really communicated that well to me and I listened. I didn't try to diet through it. I didn't punish myself.

Melanie Avalon: You still ate what you wanted.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I ate more. My body pretty much commanded me to. I've always had a hard time-- Even though I did those crazy restrictive diets, they weren't easy for me. When I’m hungry, I want to eat. My body's like, “Eat.” I’m like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: Me too. [laughs] That's why we're both here.

Gin Stephens: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Gin can eat, y'all.

Melanie Avalon: So can Melanie, so much. I've already said this. It's a dead horse, but the amount of protein I eat every day is, I mean, it's pounds.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny, not me. Nope, not pounds of protein.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. [laughs] Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode207. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. My Instagram is-- Gin, it's going really well-

Gin Stephens: Oh, good.

Melanie Avalon: -recently. Follow us. How's your Instagram?

Gin Stephens: I've decided I’m just going to live my life on Instagram. I’m just going to be Gin Stephens’ person on Instagram. If you want to come to Instagram and see what Gin Stephens’ person is doing, I don't need to be Gin Stephens. Argh. [laughs] I've just feeling very much like I just want to get back to basics. Maybe that's why I’m doing this new web platform. Just because I’m like-- I don't want to be, “Here's my dinner. Woo.” Maybe, “Here I am, everybody, come sit by me.”

Melanie Avalon: I think I really like Instagram-- well, besides the fact that selfies really stress me out, I like it, because I really like creating-- my background is film and theater, so I love creating visual content. It's combines my love for visual content with words because you-- I never thought about this until right now. You write as well, so I think that's me probably why I really like it. It's like creating little artwork.

Gin Stephens: Not me. I’m like, “Here's my backyard remodel.” Did you see that picture?

Melanie Avalon: I did. No, okay, I saw it really briefly, and I just saw wreckage and I was like, “Oh my gosh, was there is--" no, I was like, “Was there a storm in Augusta, is her house gone?”

Gin Stephens: Can I just tell you how crazy I am right now? I’m going through so many things, the book, and the website launch, and also our backyard remodel that we tried to start in the fall, but we're demoing everything. Well, it's halfway done, but the wood was rotten on the decks that were on the back, plus there was an arbor, all rotten, all needed to go. We knew it needed to be replaced when we bought the house. We got a great deal on this house, it needed some work. The pool though, huge pool from the 80s, it's full of cracks, a tree fell in it in 2014. They had an ice storm. Well, we had ice storm, and it cracked the pool, and so we were going to have to put all this money into fixing it. They're going to dig it all up. All that concrete is cracked, it has to go. The whole surround. So, I have a bobcat, one of those digger things, is in my front yard right now and they have to get it into the backyard. They're going to take down a fence. I think they start doing that tomorrow. They're going to start digging up all that-- it’s a 10-foot-deep pool.

Melanie Avalon: That's intense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, fixing it was going to cost more than just digging it up. That sounds crazy, but we're starting over, we're going to put in a screened porch, because I really missed having the screen porch. We're putting in a small pool, like a dunk pool.

Melanie Avalon: You have a real bobcat in the picture. Does Ellie not have a tail?

Gin Stephens: That's Ellie. You remember she got hit by the car, and then her tail had to be amputated. She's just my little cutie, but, yeah, in that picture, she's got a face on it, doesn’t she? She's got some attitude. I love that cat.

Melanie Avalon: It's really funny. I’m looking at it right now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, anyway, that's what I’m going to put on Instagram. I’m not going to try to influence you at all. I am not an influencer. I’m an anti-influencer.

Melanie Avalon: I’m an anti-influencer, who became an influencer. I give away a lot of free stuff.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I’m not anti-influencers. Let me just say that. I am an anti-influencer, but I’m not anti-influencers.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly.

Gin Stephens: I’m just the anti-influencer. I’m not giving you anything. I’m not giving anything away.

Melanie Avalon: I give away a lot of stuff, listeners, so follow me. I usually give away every week something.

Gin Stephens: Well, follow me to see a very interesting backyard remodel.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait though, because I really want to be able to enjoy the yard, and I like to go outside and sit on a screened porch. The mosquitoes here are tragic.

Melanie Avalon: I feel remodeling for you is therapeutic or something. You're always remodeling something.

Gin Stephens: Well, we bought this house that was built in the 80s, and needed to be-- it’s built in 1979, I said that wrong. It was built in 1979. The people who bought it from moved in 1984. The pool was built in the 80s. It just needed some work. When you have a house, there's always something that has to be done.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: This one needed some stuff. Bathroom, that's all finally done, thank you. The backyard. But it's very stressful.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to finally have a house, sometime.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait for it to be done. I told Chad, because I’m so busy. He likes to spend 100 years looking at stuff. “Look, you just pick two things and say which one, this one or that and I'll tell you.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so he picks. Okay. Yeah, that's good plan.

Gin Stephens: Well, in this case, I like to pick stuff. I don't have time right now to go to Lowe's, and then Home Depot, and then the other place, and then all the places, then back to Lowe's, because that's the way Chad shops. Sorry. [laughs] I’m like, “Hmm, that one.”

Melanie Avalon: He can do that, and pick two and then you pick one?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That works well.

Gin Stephens: I’m very decisive.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: The one I'd say that one too is always the one we end up going with. Even if we've been to 100 places, we always get back to the one that I liked immediately. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, can I share really quick one last thing that relates?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It goes with being decisive. Listeners, fun fact, if you're trying to throw away things, like clean out your apartment, throw away clothes, but you want to hold on to it for whatever reason, just do it when you're completely sleep deprived. It's like when I got back from the trip, and I was completely sleep deprived, I was like must throw away everything. I throw away so much stuff. That's the key.

Gin Stephens: It feels so good, doesn't it?

Melanie Avalon: That's the key. Next time, you're sleep deprived, which is not a good thing, turn it into a good thing. Use the decision fatigue and the exhaustion to throw away all these things that you were having trouble letting go of, like old clothes and stuff, shoes.

Gin Stephens: Very nice. I need to do that. I've got clothes that are no longer in style. Isn't that amazing? I've been the same weight for so long, that my clothes have gone out of style, that I bought.

Melanie Avalon: I think, I must not buy many clothes. I hold on to my outfits for a long time.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because you always wear the same thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, pretty much during the day.

Gin Stephens: That's funny. Oh, by the way, I didn't tell you this. Today is the day, the day that we're recording this, today is the day that six years ago today I hit my initial goal weight.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Today is the day. March 14th, 2015. I was 75 pounds down.

Melanie Avalon: Happy six-year anniversary.

Gin Stephens: Thank you. I've maintained for six years. Oh, also one more funny story. My Shapa was acting super wacky. I was like my age was going up, I was gray, gray, gray, gray, gray. I’m like, “That's not right.” It did that for three weeks. I changed the batteries. [laughs] It needed the batteries to be changed. People, if your Shapa is acting wacky, change the batteries. Got on it. I was 24 again instead of-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon:  Oh, wow. That's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: It was interesting. No scales, when they lose-- It was also taking it a long time to take a reading. I would stand on it, and it took forever.

Melanie Avalon: I still want to reach out to the founder. Gin, I am so overwhelmed with guests. I have interviews scheduled for episodes airing through November. They're all people I have to read like-- [laughs] people keep coming to me and being like, “Oh, you should have this person on your show.” I’m like, “Nope, [laughs] the door is closed.” Unless you’re a New York Times bestseller, that'll get you in the door.

Gin Stephens: That's nice to be able to have options that people want to come on your show. I know that you're proud of that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, oh, sorry, yeah, that came off as ungrateful. I’m really grateful for it.

Gin Stephens: It did not come off as ungrateful.

Melanie Avalon: I’m just really overwhelmed when people come to, especially because sometimes, like some well-known people in the biohacking sphere will try to recommend their friends and stuff and, I'm like, “I could circle back in a few months.”

Gin Stephens: That does make it hard. Same with me, I've got so many people that want to come on Intermittent Fasting Stories that I keep pushing them back, and I feel bad because I know they have a good story. I would like to tell it, but there's one a week.

Melanie Avalon: It's hard to know too-- I don't want the content to be too old. It's something I’m trying to figure out right now. At what point is that way too far in advance? Typically, it's books, so the content is pretty relevant.

Gin Stephens: But people want to come on right when it's launched. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's hard to know.

Gin Stephens: All right, we’ll come to dddsocialnetwork.com and visit the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast group.

Melanie Avalon: Another social group.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you're going to love it though.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I will.

Gin Stephens: Everybody there came there specifically because they like the community. That is what is so exciting. It's not like Facebook where people are just there already, and they're like, “Well, I'll come over here if I want to, but I might not like you, and I’m going to tell you.” [laughs] Everybody who's on the DDD Social Network came there on purpose. It is just so exciting to be there with them. I love them all so much. I love the people on Facebook too. Facebook people, do not feel unloved, but sometimes, somebody will wander in that might not be as good of a fit. Anyway, that's all I’m going to say.

Melanie Avalon: I’m really shocked-- this is the last thing, I know we've said that like a million times. I recently started my Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare Facebook group. I’m really shocked. My IF Biohackers Facebook group, which is my main hub, I don't ever get spammers in that group ever, like ever. I don't get people trying to join who are spammers. I don't get spam posts.

Gin Stephens: We get them in the Life Lessons. We do. They try to join.

Melanie Avalon: My Clean Beauty one, like half of the requests are spam requests. I don't know if it has something to do with the keywords like people are searching-- This group has around almost 900 members. Yeah, everyday, half of the requests are spam.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and it's really hard. I feel like people coming to the DDD Social Network and paying a membership fee are not going to be spammers.

Melanie Avalon: Right, that's going to filter that out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so I’m not going to have to worry about that. People would join the regular group before we changed the way it posts now. People would join it, and then they would get a post approved, through post approval. Then they would edit their post to some crazy spam posts, even post approval didn't fix it. It'll be some crazy spam post. They had this order, they would do it and it'd be called it getting pancaked, but we couldn't talk about it because we didn't want to teach people you could edit your posts. Someone would come in and they'd post something. They started copying and pasting old posts. There was one of our Hashimoto’s that they would use. Then we started to recognize them, we’d just block them straight from there, but they would copy this Hashimoto’s post, and then they would change it to, “Today, I’m five years sober.” Which, do you know why they would do that?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Because that drives a lot of engagement quickly, because everybody's like, “Oh, my God, congratulations. Thank you for sharing that. I support you.” Then they would have a million. Then they would change it to, “The admins of this group are about to start dropping inactive members, please comment me if you want to stay.” Then people would go, “Me, me, me.” I mean, you could just see. Then they would change it to, “These are the best pancakes I've ever had.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's why you called it pancake.

Gin Stephens: Pancaking. Yes. It was always this pancake, and I’m like, “I don't know what happens if you click that pancake link,” but something bad is going to happen if you click it, but we called it getting pancaked, and somebody would post on there, like, “I think we're about to get pancaked,” and we'd be like, “Yeah, that looks like one,” and then we would keep our eye on it, and then sure enough, then we would block them. Now, Facebook has changed it. If you have post approval turned on, it sends edits back through the approval process. So, hallelujah. But now, they're just putting the spam in the comments.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I’m really grateful. Hopefully it won't change. My main hub is much smaller than yours. I think it's almost 8000 or 9000, but I don't know, we don't really get spam.

Gin Stephens: We don't get a lot of spam in the advanced group.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, spammers are not searching out Biohacking groups compared to-- I don't know, it's weird. Well, okay. This has been absolutely wonderful.

Gin Stephens: It's been a lot of fun. I needed it. Lord, I have so much to do. I have so much to do, Melanie. Anyway, send me positive productive thoughts.

Melanie Avalon: Sending you sane, productive, wonderful vibes. Take some Feals CBD.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 28

Episode 206: Kreb’s Cycle, Fat Burning Vs. Ketosis, Obesity Epidemic, Fasting On An Odd Schedule, Non-Scale Victories, Heartburn, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 206 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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  JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For LIFE!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #15 - Dr. Chris Shade

Mercury Madness: Exposure Sources, Safe Fish Consumption, Chelation, EDTA/DMPS/DMSA, Detox, Amalgams, The Cutler Protocol, Glutathione, And More!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Samantha - My Lifestyle

Listener Q&A: Ellie - non-scale victories

BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Listener Q&A: Sandy - Heartburn

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 206 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And here is that amazing offer we have for you guys. For a limited time, new members can actually get two pounds of grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for free in every ButcherBox order for the rest of your life. I am not making this up. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, to get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life. That’s butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare and makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my Clean Beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. definitely check it out.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 206 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I am great. How's your book coming along?

Gin Stephens: I think I've reached a turning point this week, it's very research heavy. A lot of research. In fact, it's harder to write than Fast. Feast. Repeat. was. I've just been bogged down with all the research, but I've turned a corner at the “putting it all together stage,” making it flow, and it's starting to really come together, so that's the good part.

Melanie Avalon: In a Word doc?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Doing it in a Word doc.

Melanie Avalon: I can't imagine a whole book in a Word Doc.

Gin Stephens: What do you do yours in?

Melanie Avalon: Scrivener. It will change your life.

Gin Stephens: Why is that?

Melanie Avalon: It's like this portal. You can keep all of your stuff in different sections that you can drag around. It's just so easy. Basically, any section of the book you want to work on, you have it there on the side, and you can go work on that, and you don't have to go through just one whole big document. You can just easily move stuff around. There's places for notes, and you can put notes directly into what you're writing, like little sticky notes on the side. It's just the most amazing thing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I put them all in any way, just my own little way. I'll write a little note to myself and highlight it yellow, right in the middle of the document. I use the table of contents to get around. It's clickable, so it gets to move from place to place.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, is it on the side, the Table of Contents?

Gin Stephens: No, it's back at the beginning. I don't know, it's feels very intuitive to me. Maybe I would love the other. I thought about doing this one in Google Docs instead, and then I was like, “Nah.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The reason I know about Scrivener is one of my best friends from LA, he's like a Wall Street Journal best-selling artist or artist/author, and he self-published all of his books originally and he was like, “Do Scrivener, don't look back.” So, I did Scrivener, I didn't look back. It's amazing. Then you can export it as a Word doc because publishers use Word docs.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'll see about that. I'm might look at it next time, we'll see. Right now, it's going. It's getting there, word count’s going up. [laughs] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I have a sort of exciting announcement. I don't know if I said this on the podcast already. I know I told you. He officially scheduled last night.

Gin Stephens: Who is he?

Melanie Avalon: Gary Taubes.

Gin Stephens: Oh. I don't know that you said it on the podcast or not.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. It's very surreal moment, because--

Gin Stephens: I think you did mention that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think so, because I think we talked about Good Calories, Bad Calories. He had said he wanted to come on, but he hadn’t actually scheduled. Last night, he scheduled, so it's in the calendar. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. It is so amazing. I'm not connected to as many of the big names as you've been interviewing them. Tim Spector is somebody I really look up to. I was actually talking to the Zoe app people the other day, they have such a long waiting list. They have a special waiting list just for people who are in my audience, which is funny. You can be on the long waiting list or the special waiting list, but we were emailing and she's like, “I realized you, and Tim have not ever been connected officially. Would you like to do a Facebook Live together?” I'm like, “Oh my God.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, are you excited? Are you going to do that?

Gin Stephens: Well, not until after I finish the book, because I've got too much going on. I don't have time to do anything else right now. I can barely do what I'm supposed to be doing, but it's just very exciting. When somebody you look up to-- because his research has shaped my thinking from earliest days.

Melanie Avalon: It's very surreal.

Gin Stephens: It is. I’m like, “He knows who I am. Oh my God.” [laughs] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's a really wonderful community to, all these people that I'm meeting and most people seem to know each other, but there's some really wonderful people.

Gin Stephens: It's true. It really is true. Yep.

Melanie Avalon: I'm now working my way through Marty Kendall’s book. Is his book out yet?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Did he send you a PDF version?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: See, I don't know the format that he's doing it in. I don't know how he distributes it. Or, if it's going to be-- I don't really know. I just know he sent it to me and I skimmed through it in the format that he sent it. I don't know how other people get it.

Melanie Avalon: If it's available.

Gin Stephens: Right. I feel like it is though, maybe through his website?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I’ll have to ask him. I was so excited last night reading the section. It was what I've always wanted to know, I'm honestly embarrassed that I hadn't.

Gin Stephens: Is that the screenshot that you sent me with that?

Melanie Avalon: No, it was around that section. I'm embarrassed I haven't sat down and read about the-- what's the word, like the Krebs cycle basically. [laughs] I now understand burning fat, not in the context of ketosis and burning fat in the context of ketosis. I feel I understand it now. Can I very briefly say it?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting. Okay, because they say when you teach it, that's how you learn it, and I'm still trying to learn it myself.

Gin Stephens: That's 100% true. From a teacher, let me tell you, one of my best strategies as a classroom teacher was having kids teach things.

Melanie Avalon: His second, Kito Lie, because his book is these keto lies. His second Keto Lie is you have to be in ketosis to burn fat.

Gin Stephens: Right. We know that's not true.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, the Krebs cycle, which I am so embarrassed, I hadn't sat down and tried to actually learn, but it's our normal way that we generate energy. When we're not in ketosis, we're using the Krebs cycle. It's using carbs, protein, and fat. I want to make this really simple. When we have fat, it forms a compound or it's broken down, I think, into a compound. It forms acetyl-CoA. Oh, and listeners, by the way, we have transcripts of this show. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode206. Okay, so fat is, I think, broken down into Acetyl-CoA. It condenses with oxaloacetate to form citrate. Okay, but the key thing is that oxaloacetate requires protein or carbs to be formed. Basically, you get a compound from fat. It combines or does something magical with this other compound that is made from protein and carbs. That's why they say-- have you ever heard the phrase like, “Fat burns in the flame of carbs,” or something like that? There's some phrase about that?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel like I have.

Melanie Avalon: It's because in the Krebs cycle, you need protein or carbs to burn fat, you can't just burn the fat. On a normal diet and a non-ketogenic diet, you're burning fat, and you're using carbs or protein to burn it. In the Krebs cycle. I mean, my mind is just being blown. This is something I should have understood forever ago.

Gin Stephens: Here's what's so funny. I'm just like, I don't need to understand that. [laughs] I don't want to.

Melanie Avalon: See, I feel like I really need to understand this.

Gin Stephens: Oh, we had a huge argument. Can I just tell you a funny argument, we would get back to this real quick and let you keep telling us about it? We went out to eat a week ago and we had a heated argument about mercury in fish. It was huge. Here's why, because as I was saying, mercury, and he's like, “It's actually methylmercury.” I'm like, “I don't even care.” Then, he we had this huge argument about how I should care. I was like, “But I don't.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because there are multiple different forms.

Gin Stephens: He's like, “Well, the chemists would know,” I'm like, “Well, that's like what, 10th of a percent of the people?”

Melanie Avalon: I would have been so engaged in that conversation. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, I was like it doesn't matter because I was talking about mercury and fish. He's like, “Well, you need to specify.” I'm like, “I don't think I do,” because everywhere you read it, it just says mercury. I don't think anyone needs to specify. I don't need to prove that. Anyway, back to you.

Melanie Avalon: Unless you listen to episode of the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast with Chris Shade, the show notes are at melanieavalon.com/heavymetaldetox. We talked about mercury and methylmercury and the different forms of mercury in detail.

Gin Stephens: Well, Chad Stephens is very much interested in all that. I'm like, “Look, look, I am trying to get across this concept, mercury and fish bad.”

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what was the fish in question?

Gin Stephens: It doesn't matter. Just the fact that-- we were talking about the concept of bioaccumulation and how these things build up in the tissues of animals. I'm really trying hard to convince Chad. This is hard, that we need to buy organic everything, because he is very much price centered. I'm like, “Come on now, stop it. It costs more in the long run with our health.”

Melanie Avalon: In the long run, it's a huge difference, I think.

Gin Stephens: He's a chemist, so it's hard to convince him. Believe it or not, some of the scientists are harder to convince than just normal people. Anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt your story. I just had to say, this is just an example of that because Chad's like, “Everyone needs to know.” I'm like, “No, they don’t.” [laughs] Anyone who really wants to know can dig in.

Melanie Avalon: Was he saying that the form in fish was not the toxic form of mercury?

Gin Stephens: No. He wasn't saying that at all. He said that he thought I needed to take it-- instead of saying mercury, I should say methylmercury.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Gotcha.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “I don't think so,” because I don't think that's the conversation that 99% of people are having about it.” People don't need me to go beyond, and he was saying that people did. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes. I have a blog post about mercury. I go into that in detail. If you do want to know about methylmercury and the different forms of mercury--

Gin Stephens: Talk to Chad, talk to Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, we'll put links in the show notes. That's why there's that phrase, “Fat burns in the flame of carbs” or something. I've always heard that. That's why you can ever be in ketosis and burn fat because you don't require ketosis to burn fat. Okay, I said that fat combines or condenses with this oxaloacetate to form citrate, to form energy. If we don't have oxaloacetate, which is created from protein and carbs, that's when the fat shuttles over to the ketogenic process. I relearned about the three types of ketones. Can I talk about it briefly?

Gin Stephens: It's very appropriate to talk about here, and it's why I was never a fan of blood ketone measuring. Actually, it was Marty that taught me that and it was a long time ago. His old blog post, not this book, but his old blog posts taught me about why blood ketones can be confusing. Anyway, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: This is what happens. The acetyl-CoA doesn't have its little friend made from carbs and protein, oxaloacetate. It gets shuttled over to, like the whole ketogenic cycle. What happens is, acetyl-CoA, it gets converted into acetoacetate. Marty really explained it really, really well, because I had the Biosense people on the show, that's when I first learned about this, but he explained it really well. Acetoacetate is one type of ketone because there's three types. It's the usable energy form. What he compares it to is glucose in our bloodstream, because you know how blood sugar is instant energy in a way, like you can just burn it. That's what acetoacetate is. It's also the type that shows up in the urine. What's important about that is that when it's showing up in the urine, that's why we know it hasn't been used for energy because it is the energy form. It's not in the urine. It's like a byproduct of a ketone, it is the ketone.

Gin Stephens: It's more likely to show up in the urine, if your body is not efficient yet at using it, then you're peeing it out, sorry for my language, because your body isn't great at using it yet. That's why we have high levels of urinary ketones early in the process, not later.

Melanie Avalon: 100%, because when we first start this ketogenic process, we start creating all this acetoacetate, which we can either use and burn, in which case we wouldn't see it in the urine, or it can just go unused into the urine. But as we become more efficient, we're not going to see it in the urine, because some other magical things are happening to it, which are the acetoacetate, which is the one type of ketone, it can either become acetone or BHB, beta-hydroxybutyrate. A lot of listeners might have heard of BHB because people talk about it a lot. The acetone, that's what comes out in our breath. The ketone breath that people experience, it's from the acetone. What's really interesting is, it's a byproduct of burning acetoacetate for energy. What I mean by that, it's not like you had the acetoacetate, and it got converted to acetone and it's a new thing. It's when you burn the acetoacetate, acetone is a byproduct, and that comes out through your breath.

Gin Stephens: It's like where there's smoke, there's fire. That's the smoke.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. This is what I said, the screenshot to you last night was, that's why measuring breath ketones. It's a sign of burning ketones for energy because what you're measuring is the byproduct in a way. That's really interesting. Then, the other thing that can happen from acetoacetate, which again, acetoacetate is like the instant ketone energy glucose, is it can become a storage form, which I didn't really think of it as a storage form until I read this in Marty's book. BHB is also in the bloodstream, which is a little bit confusing, but he compares it to glycogen. It's like when we talk about glucose and glycogen, glucose being our instant energy, and glycogen being the storage form of glucose in our muscles. BHB is the storage form of ketone. It's in the blood. When we're measuring our blood ketone levels, that's a storage form, that's not actually an actively being used form, which is very, very fascinating to me. That's why he makes the case that we actually don't necessarily want high blood ketone levels, because that just shows that we have a lot of stored fuel. It's like having a lot of stored glycogen.

Gin Stephens: I love Marty. I was just going to say he really has a way of breaking it down.

Melanie Avalon: It was just so clear reading all of this. That's why he makes the case that high blood ketone levels-- because we can't actually really measure acetoacetate, that would be the ideal, I guess-- I mean we measure it in the urine, but not in the blood or anything like that. All we really measure on the blood is the BHB, the storage form. That doesn't really indicate how much you're actually using.

Gin Stephens: That brings me back to when we got the Keto Mojo, and we were testing our blood ketones, and you and I both had very low levels, but I had already read Marty's blog post that explained it. He's got this graph, I think he has the same graph in the book with the unicorns over on the left side, and what you really want is low levels of overall energy in your blood. I'm like, “No, we don't want them to be high.” Early in the process, you might see high levels in the blood. That's not our goal, to have high levels in the blood as we're living our lives. I love the phrase, he uses, ‘energy toxicity.’ It's high levels of any kind of energy in the blood are actually a sign of metabolic problems.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, he has a graph.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about with the unicorns on the left, and the good side everything low. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for him, I'm really excited to interview him. I finally understand it, because I remember you and I were looking at it probably a few months ago, and we're trying to figure out exactly what it was measuring. But reading it in the context of the book, I now understand what the graph is showing. It's showing total energy of glucose and ketones and then what percent of that is ketones, what percent is glucose. What I want to ask him is none of the dots on the graph, none of them are super high ketone, low energy, none of them. I find that very shocking that out of 3000 data points. I have to ask him about that. It makes it seem all the people who are low energy were lower ketones as well.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's the sign of metabolic health, is having low levels of all of it, circulating in your blood, because you don't want it to build up. Problems occur when the energy builds up in your blood. No matter what that energy is, we don't want high levels of any of it. It's fascinating listening to Marty talk about or read. I interviewed him for Intermittent Fasting Stories, but reading his book, he talks about, it was in his kitchen, Stephen Phinney?

Melanie Avalon: Phinney, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Of Phinney and Volek of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living. The whole idea that we needed to have high blood ketones came from a graph or a table.

Melanie Avalon: I just read this last night. It's really fresh on my mind. Two studies from the 1980s.

Gin Stephens: Also, they were from people who had just begun living a ketogenic lifestyle, and that's when the levels are high. In practice, they go down. People are like, “Oh, my God, something's wrong with me. My levels have gone down.” No, that's normal.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. nobody has really updated this. He even said that they've done-- what was it, the Virta study since then? Which actually did look at people on ketogenic diets for two years. I love what he said in the book, he said, that's what it found. It found that, I'm just going off of memory, but I think on average, after two years, people who have been keto for two years, their blood ketones were less than 0.27 millimole. That data was in the study, but there was no focus on that data. The authors didn't really draw attention to that.

Gin Stephens: It's such important data, especially with the fact that the way people are chasing ketones. When you hear about Marty's book and the title of it, Big Fat Keto Lies, is that what it's called?

Melanie Avalon: Big Fat, yes.

Gin Stephens: It may sound like he's against keto, and he's not. Not at all. He's not an anti keto person.

Melanie Avalon: The question I want to ask him, I have million, but the one I really want to know is, he does say that when we're on a lower-carb diet, and we don't have as much of the oxaloacetate, he said, the body can do one of two things. It can start ketosis, or the Krebs cycle can adapt to still run off of fat with less oxaloacetate. I'm guessing maybe we could generate that oxaloacetate from gluconeogenesis, or something. I want to know if that's a problem, is there any downside to just staying in the Krebs cycle and not going the ketosis route? I'm really dying to know. From an oxidative byproduct perspective, because I feel that's what-- I don't know, just intuitively, I just wonder if for years, that's what I was doing, never even really going into ketosis and just staying in the Krebs cycle.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know that I do go into ketosis daily. It's because-- I have the Biosense breath ketone monitor, and I do exhale ketones in my breath every single day.

Melanie Avalon: That's the other thing. If breath ketones are a byproduct of using acetoacetate for energy, it seems that the breath ketones probably would not go down the way--

Gin Stephens: No, mine do not. Mine have not. I have never stopped exhaling breath ketones.

Melanie Avalon: Because they are a sign of burning ketones for fuel. If that's what we're doing, it seems like BHB should go down if you're becoming more efficient, but breath acetone, it seems like should stay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, in practice, that's what I have found to be true. I do want people to not get obsessed with measuring things necessarily just because, I don't know, there's a lot of benefit to it to. If you want to know what's happening in your body, but if you're going to measure anything, measure the breath ketones. I have to admit, I do pull out my Biosense and I'll blow and there they are. It's just confirming. I'm not chasing a high number, that's the fear I get to. People would be like, “I'm not going to eat until I blow a 20,” or something. Maybe the number is not even completely accurate. Instead of trying to chase a number, just you can say, “Yep, there they are.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. He also has an amazing chart. It charts like fat carb protein intake, over the years correlated to obesity, and it shows total energy. He talks about how carb amounts have changed, fat amounts have changed, but obesity continues to rise. The thing that correlates is total energy. We're eating more.

Gin Stephens: That was something I talked about in my book recently. We are actually eating more. The reason why is really complicated. For one thing, the nutrient density of our food has gone way down. We're eating basically nothing good. We're just eating all this processed food.

Melanie Avalon: So, we have to eat more.

Gin Stephens: I talked about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. that our bodies are not searching for calories, they're searching for nutrients. There's lots and lots of research that supports this. When you eat a highly nutritious diet and get what your body needs, it suppresses your appetite basically, because you've eaten the nutrients. I have one study that I just read yesterday that appetite-suppressing hormones went up with a nutrient-dense diet of real foods. It's all connected. The research that I'm doing for this new book, like I said, it's taking me down all these different rabbit holes, but really, we're in a wasteland. A wasteland of nutrition. We just keep eating and eating trying to find the nutrients and they're not there. Modern farming practices, even high yield crops, for example, the foods have been bred to yield more. It's like the nutrients are diluted. Like a tomato is not even a tomato anymore.

Melanie Avalon: That's one of the benefits of heirloom varieties.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely, 100%. You put them side by side, the nutrient density in the heirloom varieties that haven't been bred for yield, so many more nutrients. Anyway, [laughs] It's so complicated, but it makes you mad. Then, you understand the obesity epidemic, and you understand why we're eating more food, and then you feel sorry for yourself back in the day when you were eating all this food and trying to-- I'm talking about myself here when I was obese, and I understand why. There's a lot to it.

Melanie Avalon: Then, on top of that, what we talked about and what he talked about is there are so many benefits to being in a low energy state, which also further exacerbates the problem because ideally, you'd want to be a nutrient-dense low-energy state.

Gin Stephens: That's it. Yeah, that's really what he's doing with people. He is teaching people how to be in a low-energy nutrient-dense state. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so excited to finish because I'm only on the-- like I said, the Keto Lie number two. I was just so happy last night, I was like, “This is the best thing ever.”

Gin Stephens: We don't need as much food as we think we do. But it needs to be full of nutrients, the end. [laughs] Thank you for attending my TED talk.

Melanie Avalon: I know, right. [laughs] That's so funny. Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you for entertaining that. I wanted to do that, learn it for myself.

Gin Stephens: Again, I don't need to know all those what's happening in the Krebs cycle, but it's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: It really is.

Gin Stephens: Our bodies are so complicated, and then we really oversimplify everything. Every single conversation we ever have is an oversimplification of the complicated things that are going on in the body. We really don't even understand everything that's going on. Truthfully.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: When I say we, I don't mean me and Melanie. The big we. [laughs] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Everybody wants to boil it down to it’s carbs or it’s fat. I'm pretty sure it's not just carbs or fats, so many things. I don't know if he talks about it more later in the book, but he did say that the thing that really hasn't been plotted, or he talks about Taubes a lot. I'm interviewing him before interview Gary Taubes. That'll be interesting. He talks about how Gary Taubes wrote Good Calories, Bad Calories, which really demonized carbs, and then had to reconcile the fact that there were high-carb populations without all of these issues. So then, he wrote The Case Against Sugar, which demonizes processed sugar, but then, Marty Kendall says the thing that's not being considered is refined seed oils, the PUFAs again, seed oils. I do think they are huge, huge factor.

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Gin Stephens: I have a little number for you. I wrote this today as well. I'm going to play the guessing game that you always play with me.

Melanie Avalon: Because I love the guessing game. I'm ready.

Gin Stephens: All right. In a normal population eating unrefined, just normal real foods, what percent of calories in just real foods when there's eating real foods like beans, grains, vegetables, fruits, meat, whatever, a natural diet, like a Western kind of diet, what percent would be from just naturally occurring polyunsaturated fats occur in foods?

Melanie Avalon: I love this question. Are you eating meat?

Gin Stephens: You're just eating all the foods, like you live in a natural place, that's not modern era. It's thousand years ago, you're just eating food. What percent of just real food that you're eating has polyunsaturated fat in it. What percent?

Melanie Avalon: I would say maybe, like, 4%.

Gin Stephens: It's 4%. Oh my God, did you just-- it's exactly for 4%. 4%.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, I got it right?

Gin Stephens: You got it right. Well, what percent in the modern Western diet, the SAD diet, the standard American diet, what percent of our calories are coming from PUFAs? If you're eating a normal, standardized American diet full of processed foods, and normally 4% is what you would find just eating from nature. PUFAs are not bad in the form of like-- omega-6s are not even bad. Having too many omega-6s is the problem. So, what would be the percent that we've ended up with now? What percent of all calories-- and keeping in mind people are eating protein fat carbs, what percent of all the calories you're consuming in a modern diet?

Melanie Avalon: 26%.

Gin Stephens: 30%.

Melanie Avalon: Or, 27%? Okay.

Gin Stephens: It's 30. You were close. Instead of 4%, we're getting 30%. Well, tell me that's not going to screw up your body?

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: Clog things up.

Melanie Avalon: That's huge.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if you're running your car and putting the wrong fuel in your car, your car certainly wouldn't function very well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because what I was thinking was I was seeing what percent of fat do I think the modern standard American diet is? We didn't talk about that. Is it around like 35% or something percent?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, it might be higher. I would think it's higher. If 30% are PUFAs, then clearly fat would be higher than 30%.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I wonder if it's a lot higher.

Gin Stephens: It might be 50%. Modern day people-- that's one of the things that bothers me when you read some of the rationale for why everybody should be low carb and why carbs are the problem. They say that we did a great job eating low fat. Well, we didn't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we just switched to PUFAs. We switched to vegetable oils.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I should have known that, because I think I did know that it was around that. Total fat percentage didn't change the composition did. We reduce saturated fat.

Gin Stephens: Right. Anyway, fascinating again. [laughs] I'm learning so much. It’s really again processed foods, bot good for our bodies in so many ways.

Melanie Avalon: Step away, friends.

Gin Stephens: The more you read, the more you're like, “Oh, my gosh, this is--” [laughs] Anyway, does that mean I'll never eat a Dorito again? No.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't mean I won't. Probably not. [laughs] I mean, probably will not. I just go down a rabbit hole. I'm very much like, if I have one, I can't stop. I just have to say no. I'm an all or none. person.

Gin Stephens: They're engineered to be that way.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Well, that was a wonderful intro. Should we answer a listener question or two?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, let's do that.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off or continue things, we have a question from Samantha. The subject is “My Lifestyle.” Samantha says, “Hello, my name is Samantha. I'm a 53-year-old 5’2” lady who owns and works in a couple of fish and chip shops in Torbay, South Devon, UK. I'm overweight by about 30 pounds, which isn't a huge amount, I admit, but it's still unattractive. My issue is, I usually start work at 2:30 and finished by 9:30. I don't have breakfast, and my main meal is around 1:30. Whilst working, I never eat chips, etc. But when I get home, I am very hungry, and given to whatever I can find. I've tried black coffee, but I'm still hungry. I don't see how I can change my eating window due to business commitment as even if it is open for five to six hours, my eating downfall still falls outside of the allotted time. Please can you give me some advice? Many thanks, Samantha.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, this is tricky because it sounds to me, Samantha, you're eating before you go to work if you start work at 2:30, and you're eating at 1:30, and then you're done by 9:30 PM. The problem is, I'm not sure if you have time to eat at work, but it sounds like you'd probably don't, you're busy working while you're at work, so you cannot eat between 2:30 and 9:30. You're solving the problem by eating before you go to work. But then, when you get home at 9:30, you're starving. That's because of the way your body-- you've worked and so now you've finished processing that 1:30 meal, and your body needs some more fuel, but you're not far enough along to really be deep in the fat-burning state and you're hungry. I sleep through that part of my fast. The part that you're having trouble with, I'm asleep.

Melanie Avalon: It's like the transition part.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's why you're hungry. Honestly, I don't know what time you go to bed. I really would shift it. If it were me, I would eat later after 9:30, after your shift is over, and work in the fasted state. You're just shifting your window, that's what I would do. I wouldn't go to bed at 10 PM, obviously eating at 9:30 going to bed at 10. I would stay awake a little longer. That reminds me, Melanie, of your schedule, when you were working in the restaurant, and wouldn't you eat after you got off work?

Melanie Avalon: I always ate at night. I tried to get home early, but sometimes I wouldn't get home till like 11 PM.

Gin Stephens: That's when you would eat?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Honestly, I think that if I were you, Samantha, and I ate my main meal at 1:30, then I went to work from 2:30 to 9:30 and then I came home, I would be starving, starving, starving. I don't have a solution for, if you're eating at 1:30, I think you're going to continue to be hungry other than you're just going to have to change your window and try that. Unless you want to have a really long window, eat at 1:30, then eat a little something else when you get home, and if you're not snacking, or eating at all from 2:30 to 9:30, maybe that'll work. It's a longer window, but you're not eating constantly. Eat at 1:30, your main meal, and have a little something when you get home. I don't think you're going to be able to do a five- to six-hour window and not be hungry when you get home.

Melanie Avalon: That was really great. You interpreted it different than I did, but I think you interpreted it correctly.

Gin Stephens: Oh, what were you thinking?

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking that she can't change due to business commitments. I was thinking that she ate with people during that work period.

Gin Stephens: I feel like she doesn't. If you're hungry after your window closes, you need to arrange your window, so it closes to encompass your hungry time.

Melanie Avalon: There are two options basically. Keeping the same window and just saying no, kind of like the Glen Livingston, Never Binge Again, pig approach. For him, he has a book on nighttime overeating, and he talks about ways to just not eat at night, having kitchen closing rituals where don't go in the kitchen after eating, or he says some people like to have actual rituals, like you say, “Kitchen closed” out loud. Basically, just not doing it, or the second option, which is what I think is more appropriate, is making your eating window cover when you're going to be hungry, which is later. I was thinking she was able to eat during her job, so I was going to suggest not having the 1:30 meals, eating later and just having those hours cover when she gets home. But if she can eat at all during her meal, then it would be sort of like a Melanie approach, which I still eat really late. I eat really late. If I was doing her schedule, I rarely eat before 9:30.

Gin Stephens: Really?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I'm usually in the bed at 9:30.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The only time I do is really if I have getting dinner with people. I might be having a drink at 9:30, but usually really late. It works well for me.

Gin Stephens: We ate late the other night. We went out with friends and it was like 9:30 we were on our way home. I'm like, “What in the world is happening? Why is it so late?”

Melanie Avalon: I should live in Europe.

Gin Stephens: Like Spain. Dinner's at like 9 PM, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Like Germany, I remember growing up because we have family in Germany and we traveled there all the time, I hated going to dinner because you would get at the restaurant at 8:30, and then you'd be there until 11:00. I mean it was late. Maybe it wasn't that late, but it's very normal there to eat late. So, I like your suggestion, which was what I agree with.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, eat late, which sounds crazy because we just are so used to being told not to eat late. Really, I still feel the idea of don't eat late is in the paradigm of eating all day. If you eat all day and eat late, that's a problem.

Melanie Avalon: I still think if all things were controlled, and it was equally easy to do, and you had to choose between having all of your meal at night or all of your meal in the morning, I think there might be some benefits to the morning. But in a real-life, practical situation, I think the majority of the things that they demonized late-night eating has nothing to do with it being late, late at night, it's you've been eating all day. By the time you tonight, you're not insulin sensitive, you've been eating all day. We were talking earlier about the high fuel state, you're in a high energy state and then you're eating on top of that. But if you haven't eaten all day, you're in a low energy state, your insulin sensitive, eating tends to make us tired, so that's why a lot of people who do the one meal day at night actually sleep well.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I talked about this last time, I think it was last week, that I've now shifted my window back to later because I wasn't sleeping with the earlier window.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Sleep is important. [laughs] I feel so much better with the later window.

Melanie Avalon: Let us know, Samantha.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. We have a question from Ellie. Ellie is my cat's name. You knew that. Yeah. My cat-- Oh, and my neighbor is named Ellie. We had a new neighbor move in. She's like, “Hi, I'm Ellie.” I'm like, “There's my cat. Her name is Ellie too.” All right, lots of Ellies. It's a beautiful name. By the way, do you know what my cat's name really is? What her full name is?

Melanie Avalon: Isn't she named after Eleanor Rigby?

Gin Stephens: Yes, because we've got the Beatles theme going on with our pets, but she's Eleanor Rigby. All right, so Ellie's subject is “Non-scale Victories.” “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Thank you both for being such an inspiration. Since I started intermittent fasting in June of 2020, you have both been instrumental to my success. I'm an avid listener of the podcast as well as IF Stories and Melanie's Biohacking Podcast. I've read all of Gin's books, as well as What When Wine, and I'm always eager to learn more.

My question is about non-scale victories. In the forums, it seems that many people seem to struggle with weight loss but stay with it because of all the non-scale victories. I seem to have the opposite problem. I have had amazing success with weight loss. Since June, I have lost 50 pounds, and am now at my goal weight. This is truly incredible, considering my lifetime of struggles with weight. Fasting has been effortless, unlike anything I've ever done, and I am so grateful that I found this way of life. I can't imagine ever stopping. Despite my success, I have not seen a lot of changes other than my weight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining and am so grateful, but I really had hoped to have improvements in other areas. My heartburn is still just as bad, my skin condition, psoriasis, is worse than ever. Most importantly, I'm still extremely fatigued and lack energy in my daily life.

Some background. I have a daily eating window of anywhere from one to six hours. I like to switch it up and sometimes eat lunch so that I can have a longer fast the next day. I always fast clean, consuming just water and black coffee. I eat anything I want in my window and would resist changing this given my lifetime of diet mentality. I have found that I have slowly been gravitating toward more whole foods and my tastes have definitely changed. However, I will admit my diet is far from perfect and I do indulge in desserts and occasional processed food. I rarely drink alcohol. I do lead a stressful and hectic life, although less so since the pandemic. I am generally healthy and have had comprehensive bloodwork recently, including a full thyroid panel that has all been normal. Is there any chance that I will start to experience some of the benefits that others are always talking about outside of weight loss? Really appreciate your insight. Thanks, Ellie.”

Can I say one thing just real quick, Melanie, before you start? You're still so new Ellie, I know that June of 2020 sounds like it's been a few months, but it's only been less than a year. We're recording this in February. It took me over a year of being at goal before my seasonal allergies went away. It didn't happen right away. That's all I want to say. You’ve got so much time. There's some other things I will say later, but I'll let Melanie go in first.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Ellie, thank you for your question. I love that she's read all of our books and loves all of the things. As far as fasting and non-scale victories and seeing improvements in other areas besides weight loss, well, first of all, to Gin's point, yes, there's definitely a lot of potential, the more you do, you will see changes. That said, I think there are a lot of health conditions and issues and challenges that we experience that you can't necessarily fast away.

Gin Stephens: Yep, that was my other thing I was going to say. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So, depending on your environment and the food that you're eating, those factors are huge, and they're going to play a huge role and different things that you might experience. For example, the three that she listed were heartburn, psoriasis, fatigue, and lack of energy. Heartburn, for example, there's something happening with the food that you're eating. If the food you're eating and your digestion surrounding that food is leading to heartburn, it's very unlikely fasting is going to change that. If you keep eating the combination of foods in the context that creates heartburn, it's probably going to keep creating heartburn. That's just something that has to be addressed. I really caution against what a lot of people think that they should do for heartburn, which is PPIs, protein pump inhibitors, because those reduce stomach acid, so people take them because heartburn seems to be excess stomach acid, it's usually not that. It's usually a lack of stomach acid, so your food doesn’t digest, so your food builds up and comes up your throat, and there is some acid in there, so you get the heartburn.

A lot of people actually really, really can tackle heartburn by taking stomach acid in the form of HCL, which can seem counterintuitive, but it can really, really work. Also, using digestive enzymes possibly and looking at the food choices to make sure there are food choices that you do digest well, that can really help with the heartburn. Psoriasis is generally-- it's an autoimmune condition, I believe. If it's an autoimmune condition and it's reacting to something that you're either putting on your skin or eating, fasting is not going to change that. As long as you're being exposed to that trigger, which starts the psoriasis cascade, maybe it calms down during the fasted state, for example but if you keep putting on something into your skin that's starting it, or eating something that is exacerbating it, that's probably going to keep happening.

Then, for fatigue and lack of energy. So many people experience that, that thing that I think will be most likely to improve with the fasting. It is possible that if it is related. If your fatigue and lack of energy is completely a fuel processing thing where your body just is not adequately fat burning, or switching into ketosis or something like that, that is something that maybe the fasting could address. That said, there are so many factors that can create fatigue and lack of energy. She got a thyroid panel, but thyroid, anemia, iron levels, your gut microbiome, infections, heavy metals, there's so, so many things. This is a thing where I know she says she resists changing her food choices because of her diet mentality. Choosing whole foods that are nourishing and lead to health, that's not a diet and the diet mentality sense of things. It can seem like it because you are restricting other foods you would want to be eating, so it can harken to that and definitely I can see how it could tap into diet trauma from past diets. But if you can reframe and see it as choosing the foods that are supporting your health, and focusing on what you can have rather than what you can't have, I think that will make hands down the biggest change in conditions that you are experiencing. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I also want to say, there's not a single food out there that you can't make a good version of and enjoy it. There's not a single thing. Let's say you love Big Macs. I've been known to love a Big Mac. I could make organic version here at my house that has only nutritious foods in it. I could even make [unintelligible [00:52:52] dressing that was nutritious, depending on what my start-- there's mayonnaise, you can make homemade mayonnaise, I'm not making homemade mayonnaise, I'm buying mayonnaise, but I've just started buying a brand that doesn't have all those PUFAs in it that we talked about earlier. You can absolutely do it. I'm never going to give up delicious foods or desserts. I enjoy-- for dessert, I still want to have a little something sweet. Maybe I'll have a couple of organic dates or smoothie from Daily Harvest that are made with whole foods that come frozen, I grind them up in my blender and put in a little organic almond milk. It's delicious.

So, I'm still having delicious foods every day. I don't feel I'm dieting, because I never want to do that again. I don't think that there is any such thing as a perfect diet, but you want to enjoy yourself, I do too. I'm not going to live a life that keeps me from enjoying myself. I just refuse to do it. Find foods that you love, gravitate towards real food versions of the foods that you want. Even if that's recreating and making a grass-fed beef Big Mac at your house, do it. [laughs] We've actually started to realize, Chad and I have, that the better versions that you make at home are actually more delicious. We went out--our food box didn't come one night, and so we had to go out to eat. We went to Five Guys, which is actually a higher quality version of burger and fries than a lot of places out there. We both used to love those fries and we were like, “Ugh.” [laughs] They were not delicious. Whereas if I take a potato and cut it up and toss it in olive oil and pop it in the oven, you don't feel gross after eating it, but you have the same experience of delicious potatoes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%. It can be a fun thing because some people might see it as daunting, but I like to see it as all of these wonderful new things you get to experience taste-wise that ultimately-- She even said that she felt like her tastebuds were changing, and I think they'll continue to do that.

Gin Stephens: Slowly. She is still so early on, I cannot express that enough. I've been living this lifestyle for years. I started in 2014, it's 2021, I didn't have all of my non-scale victories all in the first six months. It took years for my taste buds to change and for me to prefer homemade oven fries made from a potato that I tossed in olive oil to fast food fried fries, it's taken a long time.

Melanie Avalon: You've got this, Ellie.

Gin Stephens: You do, you've got it, Ellie.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I have a story for you. I recently got septoplasty to fix my deviated septum so that I could breathe better. And in the recovery period, you're not supposed to wear glasses. Oh, my goodness. I cannot tell you how much I realized how much I adore and need and love BLUblox blue light blocking glasses. I've been wearing them every single night of my life until I got that surgery. Guys, you need this in your life.

In today's world, we're way overexposed to blue light. While blue light is energizing, we're not supposed to be seeing it 24/7. It can raise cortisol, stress levels, create tension and headaches, disrupt your sleep, and so much more. Of course, there are a lot of “blue light blocking glasses” on the market these days, Andy Mant, the founder of BLUblox, he personally realized how incredible blue light blocking glasses were for him personally. So, then he did something crazy and actually tested all the brands on the market to see if they actually were blocking blue light like they said they were. They weren't really. That's why he took things into his own hands to create glasses that would block the blue light you need to be blocking to truly have the healthiest relationship possible with light. That's also why he made BLUblox light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions.

They have clear computer glasses that you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGlo lens that block the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like, bam, tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep. Also, get their Sleep REMedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes. Like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind-blowing. In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life.

These glasses also come in a huge array of styles, so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style. You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom and use the code, IFPODCAST, to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription, made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code, IFPODCAST, for 15% off. All right now back to the show.

We also have a question from Sandy. The subject is “Heartburn.” She says, “Four days ago, I completed Gin's book Delay, Don't Deny. Gin’s story was my story, same age, two kiddos, diet roller coaster, photo of me I didn't recognize, etc. The clincher was the T-Factor Diet. That too was my very first diet.” Wait, what was the T-Factor Diet?

Gin Stephens: It's the fat one. It's low fat. T means thermic effect of food or something and I can't remember, something like that, but it was low fat.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. She says, “I've been struggling with getting if just right for about a year with starts and stops, knowing it was perfect for me. Gin story and book were the final puzzle pieces. The insulin and window information or my aha moments. Podcasts are my jam, and I was thrilled to discover yours. I have one question so far. What do you recommend for heartburn while I am in my fasting state? Typically, I take the chewable Tums, but they are sweet flavored. I'm happy to suffer with heartburn to lose weight but for public situations, I will need something. The wave of peace and relief that washed over me after starting your book, you will never know. I slept like a baby that first night knowing I could and would reach my ultimate goal of throwing away my scale. Gin, I love your no-nonsense approach and attitude that you expertly convey on the podcast. I know this will be my year. Thank you, Sandy.” This was a great to have this because this is actually a condition-- She's talking about having heartburn during the fast which we don't know when she was having the heartburn, but I was assuming it was probably during the fast after eating but I did want to make a little qualifier here. Well, first of all, I don't think, Sandy, that you need to suffer with heartburn to lose weight. Heartburn is not a mandatory for losing weight. If you're having heartburn, there's something going on, which I talked about earlier. Adding HCL, adding enzymes addressing your food choices, you can solve the heartburn question.

If you are experiencing heartburn during the fast-- okay, so I don't recommend PPIs. I don't recommend doing anything to reduce stomach acid while you're eating because you want stomach acid while you're eating. However, if you're in the middle of your fast and you have heartburn, and you're still trying to figure this out, you can experiment with taking baking soda to minimize the acid during the fast, but don't do it close to your eating because you don't want to reduce your stomach acid prior to eating. But I would not take Tums.

Gin Stephens: I was going to say the same exact thing. A lot of people use a little bit of baking soda for that. There's an article that I always share. It's from the Houston Heartburn and Reflux Center, Does Fasting Increase Heartburn? They talk about how when you're adjusting to fasting, sometimes it's because you've had those symptoms all along because you kept frequently eating, it kind of masked them. Now that you're fasting, they suddenly are like popping up, if that makes sense. Yes. It seems like you're suddenly having symptoms you hadn't had before but it's because you were constantly soothing it, and now you're fasting. A lot of people then mistakenly think that the fasting causes the heartburn when really it's just allowing you to experience it.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's the case with so many things with fasting.

Gin Stephens: What's GERD stand for?

Melanie Avalon: It's like gastroesophageal reflux something,

Gin Stephens: I can actually be mechanical in nature, and not a sign that you are missing any kind of acid or have too much acid or whatever, it can be a mechanical problem. They actually have surgery they can do in certain situations that you're not going to be able to take anything that's going to solve the problem if you've got the mechanical issue going on.

Melanie Avalon: That's really good to note.

Gin Stephens: It's not always something we can medicate away.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which is why PPIs are rarely the answer.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I wouldn't take one if they try to give me one. Just from what I've read, I think it leads to so many problems. It leads to a lot of problems with digestion and also small intestinal bacterial overgrowth because your food is now going down into your small intestines. In a way, it's undigested.

Melanie Avalon: You don't want to be shutting down your stomach acid production, we need that stuff. We need it so bad.

Gin Stephens: It might solve that problem, but it's going to create another one.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and actually, I didn't even think about this. We often are supported by BiOptimizers. They're not a supporter of today's episode, but they actually have HCL Breakthrough, which is their stomach acid supplement, and it also has other digestive components to it, so it might be something to check out. It's a really great product, I've used it a lot. If you go to our show notes, you can usually find a coupon code that we have for them. If you dance around the most recent show notes and find the most recent episode that had them on it, there's usually a code. Because often usually our code applies to all of their products, not always, but you might be able to use it on that one.

Gin Stephens: I want to read the last little bit of this from the Houston Heartburn and Reflux Center. This is important. This is like the medical advice straight from them. “If you constantly experience heartburn during intermittent fasting, we recommend a comprehensive GERD evaluation to stage your disease and tailor treatment accordingly.” So, if it's continuing to happen, then you need to have that looked at. Don't just keep taking baking soda.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah, I'm glad you said that.

Gin Stephens: Here, it has to do with-- your esophageal sphincter could be damaged from years of-- anyway. There's a lot that can go on in your body.

Melanie Avalon: Just to iterate, I already said this, but don't take the baking soda right before eating, please.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I am MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. I think that is everything.

Gin Stephens: Oh, can I say something funny about Instagram?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Every time I post a picture of a cat, my number of followers briefly goes down.

Melanie Avalon: Down?

Gin Stephens: It is so funny. It's happened twice now. [laughs] Yeah, I guess both times I noticed it just because I crossed over a new threshold because I don't really notice what's happening. But a couple days ago, I posted a picture of my cat and I was like, “Oh, look, I have 26,000,” that was a new number. Then I looked and, it was 25.9. A few weeks ago, I had posted a picture of a cat, and it was a similar kind of threshold. I had posted the cat, I'd got down. [laughs] People like must be dog people, or-- Look, I have always said, if you follow me on Instagram, there will be cats.

Melanie Avalon: It's one of the few things. Well, I don't post my pictures of cats, but I love cats. I think cats are great.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm just living my life on Instagram. I'm not trying to influence you.

Melanie Avalon: I'm posting all of the crazy things that I just need to share with everybody. It's funny, like whenever I meet somebody new, if I'm having a conversation, I feel like oftentimes something will come up really soon in the conversation that I have a link for. I'm always self-conscious about it because it's like I've just met this person. I'm like, “Oh, if you go to this link, there's a coupon code.” I feel like it comes off like I'm trying to sell something and from the first conversation. It comes up with wine, for example, because wine is often the first topic of conversation with random people. Dry Farm Wines will come up and I’ll be like, “Oh, if you go to dryfarmwines.com/melanieavalon, or, by the way ifpodcast.com, they can get a bottle for a penny. We're not trying to sell it to you. I just--

Gin Stephens: It's really good, you're going to be glad you got it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know. I just feel the need to share everything.

Gin Stephens: Well, let me ask you this. Have you always done that from the time before the podcast. Before we had coupon codes, weren't you always telling everybody everything you did anyway?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I just now have coupon codes and links for all of them.

Gin Stephens: Malcolm Gladwell talks about it in his book. I can't remember which one. We're mavens. We're the people who try stuff and then tell everybody.

Melanie Avalon: I must tell the people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's what I always did. Going back, way before this, I can remember my friend was reading whatever that book was that he talks about that in. She was reading it for a graduate-level class, and this is way before I had books and podcasts. She came to work one day and said, “Oh my God, you're a maven,” because I just always tell people everything that I was doing and make suggestions. That's why we have a podcast.

Melanie Avalon: It's why we have these shows. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: This is how we can just be our mavenly self, but we just can't help it, but tell you about stuff.

Melanie Avalon: The disclaimer I realized I just need to have with these people at the beginning is, I need to say, “I'm really passionate about a lot of things. I do a lot in the biohacking sphere. If there's ever any product or something related to health, wellness, biohacking, I probably have a link for it that I can give you a coupon for,” which is very true.

Gin Stephens: When I first started a new job when we moved to Carrollton, Georgia, I was a new third-grade teacher there, several years after I'd been there. We were all at lunch one day, and they talked about how I annoyed them when I first got there. They thought I was just over the top with all of my excited ideas. They're like, “Yeah, one girl, she was like, ‘yeah, you came in, you were like 90 miles an hour.’ We were like, ‘Oh my God. Who is this girl?’ With all of your ideas.” She's like, “Now, once we got to know you, we're like, “Yeah, whatever Gin said.” [laughs] That was really good that they told me that because it helped me realize that I needed to not go into new situations 90 miles an hour. After a few years, they were like, “Okay, whatever Gin says, we'll do that.” But prior to that, they had to get to know me.

Melanie Avalon: It is really nice to have built the trust in the community. People do want to know now my recommendations, so I still don't hold any liability and I don't guarantee that anything will. You’ve got to find what works for you.

Gin Stephens: That's true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm just telling you about things that worked for me personally, and they might bring joy and wonderfulness to your life as well.

Gin Stephens: Or feel free to say, “No, I don't want to learn about the Krebs cycle. Thank you.” [laughs] All righty. Well, that was a really loud long epilogue at the end here, but I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Interments Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 07

Episode 203: Ketone Levels, Magnesium, GI Distress, Pandemic Plateaus, Heart Palpitations, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 203 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Listener Feedback: Crystal - Thank you!

Listener Q&A: Brenna - Ketosis 

‘Optimal ketosis’ is a goal. More ketones are better. The lie that started the keto movement.

Listener Feedback: Mary Ellen - Bioptimizers

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Listener Q&A: Sofie - AMA 

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Listener Q&A: Chris - Heart palpitations

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Listener Q&A: Madeline - Tea

Listener Q&A: Susan - Flavored Seltzer

Listener Q&A: Lisa - Ask me anything episode 200

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 203 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment., pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean, fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting. Here's what's going on.

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin, in turn, lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world, worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more.

Guess what? We worked out an exclusive deal for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast listeners only. Guys, this is huge. They weren't going to do a deal, I begged them, here we are. You can get a free LMNT sample pack. We're not talking a discount. We're talking free. Completely free. You only pay $5 for shipping. If you don't love it, they will even refund you the $5 for shipping. I'm not kidding. The sample pack includes eight packets of LMNT, two Citrus, two Raspberry, two Orange and two Raw Unflavored. The Raw Unflavored ones are the ones that are safe for your clean fast, and the other ones you can have in your eating window. Word on the street is the Citrus flavor makes an amazing margarita by the way.

I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's DRINKLMNT dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before you jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its antiaging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing antiaging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol, so you can get all of the antiaging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift, that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. So, friends, are you fast and clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 203 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. By the way, if anybody hears something that sounds like a leaf blower, that's my neighbor. The teenager’s outside doing leaf blowing. So, if you hear something weird, that's what it is.

Melanie Avalon: I don't hear anything.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad. [laughs] Someone else might hear. I can hear it even through my headphones.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: How are you?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. Just busy-busy, working on the new book. I can't wait to start talking about it.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm working on it. It's a lot of work. A lot of work to write books.

Melanie Avalon: I was just telling you before, we started recording that every time I think about you writing it, I get very grateful that I am not writing it. [sighs] It's a lot of work.

Gin Stephens: It really is. I thought of something the other day that made me laugh really hard. Let's see if I can paraphrase it. “If you want to be proud, teach someone to write. If you want to live a life of crushing doubt, write a book yourself,” or something like that. That’s not what it was, but I'm like, “Yeah,” because as soon as you write anything, you're like, wait a minute, “Is that good?” “Is it bad?” Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I hear you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I had a really nice interview, I think, yesterday or two days ago.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh. Who was that?

Melanie Avalon: I got to interview Terry Wahls.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Which was really exciting. I feel like she's really well known in the holistic health sphere. For listeners, she has a really famous TED talk. She completely reversed her MS through diet, and she's a doctor and does clinical trials. She said something that I thought was so amazing. I was like, “I'm going to start saying this.” Then, I was actually reading Dave Asprey’s book, Fast This Way. He made a similar concept, and it was an idea I wanted to share, which was, she said-- I don't know-- Were we talking about fasting? Yes. I think we were. Yes. Do you know what she does, fasting?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: She only eats every other day.

Gin Stephens: She's an alternate daily faster.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I was talking to her about it. She said, she encourages people, when they're trying to find the fasting schedule that works for them, to do everything out of curiosity. The alternative was like, rather than fear or feeling you have to do it, just being curious about it. Then I was reading, like I said, Dave Asprey’s Fast This Way, and he made a similar comment about-- I'm not sure if he used the word ‘curiosity,’ I think he was talking about doing everything out of wants and not needs when choosing your fasting. It was just basically this idea from both of them about not having fear or feeling you have to do certain IF protocol or feeling it's this rigid thing that you have to do, but rather just something that you get to do or you want to do, or you're curious about, and I thought that was really freeing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the whole idea of getting your mind in the right place. I had the Mindset chapter in Fast. Feast. Repeat., just having the right mental attitude towards what you're doing. Then, you start appreciating the fast for what it is, instead of just living for the feast. There's a lot of good stuff going on in our bodies, so we learn to appreciate that very much. The fast is powerful.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: I'm glad that you had a great chat with her.

Melanie Avalon: It was good. Then I told you, I'm going to interview Gary Taubes.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: So excited. I was thinking about it. Well, he's not paleo. I always say that Rob wolf was the person who initiated me into the health world, but I think Good Calories, Bad Calories was the first book I read about carbs at least.

Gin Stephens: Right. Yeah, I read that one.

Melanie Avalon: It's a doozy.

Gin Stephens: It really is. If I just could take one thing away from that book, it was that it's a lot more complicated than we thought. That's what that really taught me and-- oh, just because somebody says something doesn't mean-- [laughs] That really sent me down the path, I think, you're right of this is really complicated. Our bodies are not just calories in, calories out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He has a new book. Have you read it yet, The Case For Keto?

Gin Stephens: No, but I've read an analysis of it. Somebody that I really like, Marty Kendall, Optimising Nutrition.

Melanie Avalon: Who I'm also going to interview.

Gin Stephens: I just had him on my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did interview him? How did it go?

Gin Stephens: Yep. I interviewed him this week. He's so fantastic. He's great.

Melanie Avalon: Did you read his new book?

Gin Stephens: Which one?

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's not out yet. I don't know if he sent it to you before the interview.

Gin Stephens: The one about keto?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I've read it. I read it. The myths?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's so good. We talked about it in the interview. Yes, he sent it to me. I read it, but I was like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,” the whole time I was reading it. Then when I talked to him, it was great. By the time this episode comes out, mine will not have come out yet with Marty. Marty Kendall has an analysis of Gary Taubes’ new book, on his Optimising Nutrition website. and Optimising is spelled with an S because he's Australian, if anyone's looking for it, but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I'm curious to see how the timeline goes if I release those episodes back-to-back because I know Marty, I don't know if it's a critique, but he analyzes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's a bit of a critique, not in a bad way. I think that Marty may have been closer in beliefs to what Gary Taubes is now and then has learned more and moved away from some of them, if that makes sense. Everything that Gary Taubes says, Marty Kendall used to agree with all of them and over time has learned more and moved away from them and maybe feels that Gary needs to move away from some of them as well. I don't know if that makes sense. When I read his critique, I think that's the way I would summarize it.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know Gary founded with Peter Attia, what is it?

Gin Stephens: Was it NuSi?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I followed that whole story when they were doing their studies, and it's fascinating the whole idea of, they funded these studies, and they didn't exactly find what they thought they would find and a lot of debate about that. It's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: I'm imagining Case for Keto is probably very long. I haven't even picked it up. I'm like, “Oh, no.” I have so many other books I'm reading right now that I just have to get through. I’ve got to take a breather, but it's going to be fun. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have some listener feedback. The first one comes from Crystal. The subject is, “Thank you.” Crystal says, “I don't have a question. I just wanted to say thank you. I've been dabbling in IF for the last year, mostly in a 16:8 model. Like many people, I heard that 50-calorie rule, I would wake up to two tablespoons of a sweet creamer in my coffee, because it was only 50 calories at 8 AM. At 10 AM. I'd be starving, like that shaky, low blood sugar hungry. I'd have a small breakfast, then basically snack all day, have a big dinner, stop eating at 6 PM. After 6, I drank a cup of tea with stevia and usually a diet soda. I was constantly fighting hunger, it was a total chore. Many days I would cave and not fast at all. My willpower cannot override the hunger I was experiencing.

Since listening to your podcast and learning about spikes in insulin and the benefits of clean fasting, I've dropped my bad habits and I feel incredible. I rarely feel hungry. I never have that low blood sugar feeling. I no longer crave sugar. I have so much energy all day. I find that if I cave and open my window early, I regret it. My weight loss has increased dramatically. My blood glucose has normalized. I just want to say to those just starting out, having a less strict fast isn't helping you. It just makes fasting so much harder. You gals have changed my life. Thank you so much for all of your research and for sharing.”

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you so much, Crystal. I loved reading that. If it were true that putting a little something in there made it easier to fast, I'd be putting a little something in my coffee too. The science explains why and I'm so glad that you stumbled upon our podcast and listened and that it's helping you. Because I remember those days before I was fasting clean, that white knuckling that I was going through. Oh, by the way, Melanie, that made me think of something that Marty Kendall and I talked about when I interviewed him last week and that was the whole putting all the fat in your coffee and why that is not a good strategy for weight loss. Marty agrees with me. [laughs] He agrees with me that the goal is not-- and actually reading his blog is what informed me because I've been reading his blog since 2017, I think, something like that, but his explanation of ketones in the blood and what does it mean and chasing high ketone numbers being not what we're wanting to do, Marty really has a great way of explaining all of that, so you get it. That really helped me understand along the way reading his blog.

He talks about how our goal is not to have ketones, our goal is to get into ketosis, which I have said multiple times-- we've said it on this program, and in this podcast. Putting the fat in your coffee may not have the giant insulin response that sweetener would have, but it's still not what you want to do if your goal is to burn your body fat.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Brenna. The subject is “Ketosis.” She says, “Hello. This question may have been answered before, but I figured I'd give it a go. I've been fasting clean since April 2020 with an average eating window of six hours. Starting out, it was 16:8 and now it's mostly 20:4. I'm a carb lover like both of you, but don't follow a specific diet. My meal/snack foods usually consist of a lot of carrots, potatoes, brussels sprouts and apples, along with chicken or ground turkey for protein. I also enjoy things like Barbara cereals and animal crackers, always a kid at heart.

I recently purchased a Keto-Mojo blood glucose monitor out of curiosity. I am a nurse and I tend to like numbers and raw data. To my surprise, I am barely reaching ketosis when I thought I'd feel it in my body. I would get the odd taste in my mouth and feel energized towards the end of the fast. My average has been 0.4 mmol after 20 hours of fasting, and I've heard 0.5 mmol is considered nutritional ketosis. I've tried to do my own research, but I can't seem to find anything unless it's related to a ketogenic diet, which I absolutely refuse to do. I thought I heard y'all talking about how we shouldn't be measuring ketones, but I may be mistaken. I would love your feedback on this. Thank you so much for your podcast. It's been so great. Thanks again, Bren.”

Gin Stephens: Thank you for asking, Brenna. That is fantastic. Going back to what I was talking about with Marty Kendall, he has got a blog post that I want you to look for on Optimising Nutrition. It's called “Optimal ketosis is a goal. More ketones are better. The lie that started the ketone movement.”

Basically, we are not chasing high ketone numbers. You really need to just read what Marty Kendall says about it, because it's fascinating. He started off the same thing, reading about nutritional ketosis that you're talking about there. Here's something though that's so interesting. People who are in ketosis long term, ketone levels drop over time, Marty talks about this. He even talks about-- he had Steve Phinney who was one of the authors of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, which is where some of these numbers started off. He had Steven Phinney at his house staying with him, when they were [laughs] having low carb down under and they were talking about it, and about the chart that was in the book that people keep referring to. That chart was based on blood ketone levels of participants in two studies from the 1980s. Okay, that's where they got that chart from.

Melanie Avalon: This is the original chart that came up with--

Gin Stephens: Yes, the one that everyone is using as this is what we should be striving for. Basically, these people were new to a lower carb diet at the time that they were tested, so ketone levels were high. Basically, the whole keto community has begun to realize over time, “Oh, ketone levels go down.” “Oh, it doesn't make any sense to chase high ketones.” All the things you had, and Marty goes into this all in his keto myths-- and he's not anti-keto. When you read the title of his book, you might think that it's a book against keto, but it's a book that's trying to bust the myths, the bad advice that's out there, like, “Oh, if you're not getting high ketones, just add more fat, add more fat, have more fat.” Well, adding more fat is likely to give you higher ketones, but why? Well, because your body is going to be making them from all that fat you're consuming, is that going to help you? No. It might look better on paper if you're shooting for this high number, but now you've got all this extra energy from the fat that you're consuming. He and I also talked about the eat more fat to lose more fat myth. It was fabulous because I said there's one thing that people always say that's bad advice in the groups when someone's saying, “I'm struggling with keto, what should I do?” I'm like, “So, Marty, what do you think the number one bad advice we always hear is?” He said, “Eat more fat.” I'm like, “Yep, that's it.” Eating more fat is not a winning strategy for really anything, basically. It might give you higher ketones, but that's not our goal.

Look for his blog post. Just like back in the day when I was reading Dr. Fung’s blog post, this is before The Obesity Code came out, and I'm digging down the rabbit hole and reading this post and that post from Jason Fung and being like, “Oh, my gosh,” it was mind blowing. The same thing happens when you start reading some of Marty Kendall’s blog posts.

Melanie Avalon: She doesn't even really want to do keto, but she's eating a lot of carbs and not experiencing.

Gin Stephens: Okay, it sounds to me she's confused because she thinks her ketone levels should be higher, because she's heard that you get into ketosis during the fast. So, it sounds to me like Brenna is thinking that you want to be in art and science of low carb living, high levels of nutritional ketosis levels of ketones during the fast, and that is not true. She's chasing high ketone numbers, but we're not trying to get high ketone numbers. We're trying to get into ketosis-- we enjoy being in ketosis. I'm not even going to say we're trying to get into ketosis really, because you can lose fat without being in ketosis. We want to prove that we're in ketosis by finding these high numbers that we think we need. That is not what you need to do. That's my point.

Melanie Avalon: Especially if, like for Bren, if she's happy with her diet and likes how she's feeling, it'd be one thing if she wasn't losing weight and didn't feel she was in the fasted state, and was trying to tweak things, then that actually might be a case where she might want to look at our food choices, to possibly further encourage the entry into ketosis because I don't want to discourage people from doing low carb diets, if they want to do it. It is very likely if you're eating high carbs, and then you switch to low carbs, yes, you'll probably get into a deeper state of ketosis, either deeper or sooner, it is going to make a difference, most likely. I'm not trying to discourage people from doing that. If it's somebody like Bren who has no interest in doing ketogenic is happy with her diet, but the only thing that's bothering her is that she's not getting this certain number on her Keto-Mojo, I would not stress about that.

Gin Stephens: She's been getting 0.4 and she's like, “Well, I really need 0.5.” No, no, no. Even if you're only getting point one, that's showing that you're getting into ketosis, we're not trying to have high levels. Marty has another blog post, not the one that I just said, I can't remember the name of this one but has wonderful graph, I'm pretty sure I've referenced it before here on the podcast that health is associated with less energy floating around in your blood of all types.

Melanie Avalon: Like just in general, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we don't want to have high levels of blood glucose floating around in our blood. We know that. High glucose in our bloodstream is bad. We don't want to have high levels of fat floating around in our blood. We know that. We also don't want to have high levels of ketones floating around in our blood. During the fasted state, we really want low levels of things floating around in our blood. We're not trying to get them up. That would be like us thinking that we needed high levels of blood glucose in our blood. That mistake, if you're like, “I'm trying to get my blood sugar up as high as I can, because high is better.” No. It would be the similar kind of idea.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. All right. Shall we jump back to-- going out of order.

Gin Stephens: Go back, yes. Anyway, so thank you, Crystal, back to the original question about the clean fast. Yes, the clean fast matters, and we're so glad that you found that it does. Now, we have one from Mary Ellen, and the subject is “BiOptimizers.” She says, “Hi Gin and Melanie. I don't have a question but would like to give feedback on a product you endorsed for others who may have issues with constipation.” She says, “I am a 49-year-old registered nurse. I've been an intermittent faster for two years and have had great success. I love this way of life. I follow a 4:3 or 5:2 lifestyle and my down days are on days I work since I have amazing energy while fasted. I have had chronic constipation since my 20s. I've been to GI docs, have had colonoscopies, have tried every fiber and supplement. But the only way I have a bowel movement is by taking milk of magnesia once a week. This works but as you can imagine, it's a lengthy and “explosive” event.

I heard the endorsement on the podcast for BiOptimizers Magnesium supplement and decided to try it. Well, I have taken two capsules for the past four nights and, drumroll please, I have had a bowel movement the past three mornings. A normal BM, no diarrhea or pebbles. This is amazing. A total game changer for me. I can't believe how much better my tummy feels. I know it's early on and I'm hoping my body doesn't become acclimated to it. I do have plenty of room to increase the dose if necessary. I just had to share this for any other IFers who have the same issue. Thank you, Gin and Melanie for your great advice. Take care, Mary Ellen.”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, as a fellow struggler of GI issues, I love receiving emails like this. Yes, we've had Wade on the podcast, one of the founders of BiOptimizers, we did a whole episode on magnesium and how basically our bodies are just depleted. Magnesium is one of the minerals that is really hard to get an adequate amount of today from our food, because the soil is just so magnesium depleted. They formulated their magnesium supplement to have-- there's like seven forms of magnesium, so it has all of those forms-- especially in my group, IF Biohackers, people talk about this product, Magnesium Breakthrough. A lot of people experience other great benefits, like reduced anxiety and stress. Then, a lot of people do see a lot of improvement in their bowel movements. Super excited to hear that.

I think they're actually a sponsor on this episode. If you listen to the ad that we are running, I'm not sure where it's going to be placed. It might have been at the beginning or it might be in the middle, that's where you can get the link to our latest offer for them because I don't know if it's magnesium right now. It's always changing. Yeah, they're a really great company.

Gin Stephens: They really are.

Today's episode is brought to you by Green Chef. Green Chef is the first USDA-certified organic meal kit company. Enjoy clean ingredients you can trust, seasonally sourced for peak freshness. Ingredients come premeasured, perfectly portioned, and mostly prepped, so you can spend less time stressing and more time enjoying delicious home-cooked meals. I love cooking, but I really love that Green Chef simplifies it for me. Another thing I love about Green Chef, it's the most sustainable meal kit, offsetting 100% of its direct carbon emissions and plastic packaging in every box. So, you can feel great about what you're eating and how it got to your table.

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Melanie Avalon: All right, shall we jump into some questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Sophie. This is a lingering one from our “Ask Me Anything” episode. She says, “I'd like to know the potential diminishing returns of fasting over time for weight loss. Anecdotally, many long-term IFers seem to hit a wall, and no amount of tweaking seems to make a difference. Me, but I'm not alone. Why do we seem to eventually stop losing weight and even put weight back on? I have read each book and I am aware of the troubleshooting and tweaking and the medical testing for other potential reasons.”

Gin Stephens: Yes. Anecdotally, many, many people hit walls and have issues. I want to say something though that's interesting. I've been in the intermittent fasting community for a long time. The first time that I've seen this happen the way it's happening now has been 2020. I think the stress of 2020, the pandemic-- we did not see a lot of long-term IFers hit a wall and have weight regain and have all these problems until really 2020. It's been different this year. What do you think about that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That is such a fascinating answer. I wasn't anticipating that.

Gin Stephens: Well, I've been in the community for a long, long time and I have said before, people get to goal, they stay there. Then, all of a sudden, we've had more struggle in 2020 than we ever had before. Is it because more people really are struggling or because the community is so much larger that it seems like more people are struggling? Because let's imagine, I've got a group of let's say 300,000 in the regular Delay, Don’t Deny group, it's actually bigger than 300,000, it's more than 300,000. But let's say we have 300,000 intermittent fasters and a half of 1% are regaining weight, and they all start talking about it. It's going to feel like a giant amount of people, but it's really a tiny percentage. When you say many, many long-term IFers hit a wall and stop losing weight and put weight back on, I don't have numbers, but I’d really don't think it's many, many, many like you said there. I will say for me, I know that I-- I'm going to say, I haven't weighed myself on a traditional scale since, what was it, 2017 or something like that. I know that looking at photos of me in 2018, which is right after I retired from teaching, I have some photos, I think I hit my lowest, leanest weight in 2018. Then, I think I slowly put on a little bit of weight, not enough to get out of my honesty pants. I still fit in all my clothes. I was a little puffier, just a little. I also was going through menopause during that period of time, which is a hormonal change most women gain a good deal of weight, during menopause.

If I had been weighing every day, I don't know what my scale would have told me. Maybe I gained 10 pounds, I don't know, maybe I didn't. I think I did have a little bit of gain over that transition. What's interesting is now I'm on the other side of that, and I am actually back to what I felt was my leanest weight from 2018. Here we are now, 2021, I think my weight went up a little bit, and now it's back down a little bit. Again, I don't have the numbers, so I can't tell you exactly what it did. But my honesty pants are fitting me like they did in 2018. Chad's like, “Oh, look. Look how you're losing weight, stop doing that.” All of a sudden, he's saying that to me. But I really haven't done anything different, other than I have tweaked the amount of alcohol I'm drinking. Other than that, I think it's my body and my hormones, maybe 2020 and the stress, I don't know. Did I gained some weight and then lose it again? I think I did. What I didn't do is worry or stress or think that intermittent fasting had stopped working, or why did I gain weight? Why am I losing it again? I think that we have normal cycles in our lives, is where I'm going with this.

For me, I think that menopausal transition, I think I may have gained a little weight and then I lost it again, just based on clothes and photos. But again, I didn't grow out of my clothes ever or need bigger clothes. That didn't happen. I think they may have gotten a little tighter. If a person has hit a wall and no amount of tweaking seems to make a difference, something has changed. It might be your hormones, maybe you're going through menopause. It maybe you've had window creep, and you don't feel like you're eating more, but you really are, your window may be different. Maybe it's the stress of the pandemic, but not one of those things is minor. They're all big. I don't think that there's anything that says that we get diminishing returns of fasting. I certainly don't think that anything that happened for my weight over the past from 2018 when I think I was leaner, and then I wasn't as lean, and now I'm back to 2018 again, I don't think it was fasting that had anything to do with that. Does that make sense? Did I explain that well?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was just thinking about how basically 2020 for many people, even if it was just one factor that could potentially affect weight loss, that would be huge. Say it was just a stressful situation, like stress. But it's not just stress, it's stress, it's the majority of people no longer going into their physical jobs. The physical activity, I imagine, for a lot of people dramatically probably shot down. Not going outside is quite as much for a lot of people. Vitamin D going down. The lack of social connection. There's so many things. Then dealing with a stress, a lot of people probably did turn to more comfort foods, or--

Gin Stephens: Oh, I was certainly doing more baking.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A lot of, I feel, takeout escalated. It's basically the perfect storm of challenges to face with losing or maintaining weight, or not gaining weight. Yeah, I'm really, really glad that you brought that up. This is a new question from Sophie because I know we answer questions from 2017 but this is a very new one.

Gin Stephens: One thing that seems to be implied in this question is that intermittent fasting is the only tool that we use whether our weight goes up or down. It's all related to intermittent fasting. Well, I did intermittent fasting and my weight didn't go down, so intermittent fasting doesn't work. But really, there's a lot of other things in your body going on at one time, the health of your gut microbiome, you mentioned sleep. Intermittent fasting is a tool in our health and weight loss toolbox. But it's not the only tool and it doesn't work in isolation.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. The second thing I was going to say was-- she doesn't even mention this question, like you just said it, it's just talking about fasting, but there's so much more, and food choices, I think is really huge. I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it. I honestly think-- and this would never happen, so I'm grateful for that. If I had to choose between fasting with food choices that don't suit my body compared to healthy food choices that support my body and not fasting, I would probably choose the food choices. I think it's really, really huge what we're actually putting into our bodies, so we don't really have any details about what Sophie's eating or her window. There's really not any details. It does seem to be sort of a resigned mindset idea about IF.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because it seems to imply that you're going to hit a wall, you're going to stop losing weight, you're going to put weight back on. I guess if I had that feeling, especially if I was weighing every day, maybe I would have felt that way in 2020. Maybe I don't know what I weighed, I don't know. I could have been like, “Oh, my gosh, intermittent fasting has stopped working for me.” It didn't. It never did.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually listening to a really, really interesting interview on ritual with-- I don't know who it was, honestly. It was actually in his recap episode, so he was doing little pieces from interviews all throughout the year. I think the guy was a trainer who works with athletes, and he was talking about the effect on athletes during this time and them not being able to train. He was basically talking about the different mindsets. Some people especially were really into physical activity, and then couldn't do it because of the pandemic situation, that some people kind of choose to just not do it anymore and figure that they'll get back to it on the flip side, and then some people keep like a little bit going, so it's like they're at a baseline that's just a little bit removed from where they were. He was saying how much easier it is-- you don't have to be completely perfect and maintaining the exact same thing that you're maintaining. You might perceive, “Oh, I'm not maintaining, or I'm gaining weight.” It's quite possible that you kind of sounds like what happens with Gin, like a baseline that's not egregiously far from where you were, but it is a little bit far. That baseline will probably once the situation changes, the environment changes, you get back to it, it probably won't be that hard to get back to “where you were,” if that's what you're trying to achieve. If you have the mindset of, “Oh, I'm gaining and can't get back to what I was,” then that can be I think the mindsets huge, like that can probably make or break you as far as how you are interpreting if IF is working or not. When it always could, in theory work.

Gin Stephens: I do think that if I had been weighing myself every day, and saw my weight trending up on the scale, it might have panicked me and upset me. Maybe the fact that I threw my scale away, and I didn't have the scale kept me going because it didn't matter. I wasn't worried about it. I also trusted that everything would be fine.

Yeah, I remember us doing an interview, maybe at some point in 2020, for Intermittent Fasting Stories, and I remember saying on the podcast, I think I was leaner a couple years ago, but I wasn't worried about it. The menopausal transition usually comes with a good deal of weight gain for most women. I never had to buy bigger clothes, like I said, so maybe I was a little puffier. I was like, “Alright, everything's okay. I'm not gaining a lot of weight, but I'm a little puffier. No problem.” Now, it's really nice to know that that's changed. Also, interesting, over the holidays I've gotten a Shapa scale now that shows me the color. I've had periods of time where I was gray. Gray means gaining a little bit of weight. I've always been balanced out with periods of time where I go to blue, every time.

Melanie Avalon: I have a question about it, I stopped using mine. I need to start using it again. I finally stepped on it again, it was like, “You have to recalibrate.” I was like, “Man.” Does it always go sequential? Does it have to go from gray to neutral to blue, or does it ever go straight from gray to blue?

Gin Stephens: Well, it shows your trend of the past 10 days, so I feel like it would have to go sequentially just from that because your trend is only going to change a little bit. I guess if you picked up a 50-pound barbell and got on there, I don't know what it would do.

Melanie Avalon: [crosstalk] -liposuction.

Gin Stephens: Do that experiment and see. Something like that might actually make you go to gray from blue.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if you could go straight from gray to blue.

Gin Stephens: You would have to have a big mathematical difference. It would not be actual fat gain or loss. Just today, I was green yesterday, I was teal, I'd been blue for a little while, but before that, I had a little gray. It all seems to be evening out over time. Since I've been on the Shapa, that's helped me be even more calm about what my weight is doing and seeing it go up a little bit over the holidays, but then naturally come back down without any kind of stress about it. Or, I haven't had to really go crazy with trying to lose it. If I saw gray, gray, gray, gray, gray, gray, gray, gray, over time, and it kept being gray, I'd be like, “Alright, why is this happening?” Then, I would think about it, “What's different? What can I do?” There may be a time that I might have to change something, that would be okay, too. Using the data, making a change, seeing what you need to do, but using it as informing you instead of letting it stress you out, I don't know. The opposite could have been true. I could have found that maybe when I went through menopause, maybe I gained 50 pounds, that could have happened. It didn't, but it could have, but would that mean intermittent fasting had failed? No. It wouldn't have meant that then either, because intermittent fasting is always doing-- unless you take it to the extreme and you're fasting in an unhealthy way. If you're fasting in a healthy way, living an intermittent fasting lifestyle the way you and I talk about, I can't imagine intermittent fasting making your health worse.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I haven't talked about this a lot. The thing that sold me, like sold me on the role of hormones and factors, not necessarily related to what you're actually eating, is I maintained a very similar weight for a really, really long time. Then, one of my doctors suggested a super, super low-dose SSRI for my GI issues, so I trial-runned it and I gained a significant amount of weight in a very short amount of time with no change in diet. That is what really opened my eyes. I didn't continue taking it because I didn't really feel comfortable with it, personally. I just didn't really like how it made me feel. But I'm actually really happy that I had that experience because I don't think I really realized until then, just how powerful hormones are. Again, that's a medication, but the reason it's having that effect is because it's changing something in your hormones. It was really shocking.

So, when we get questions from people who feel like, whatever reason, they just can't lose the weight or something's just not working, it could very well be something hormonal, and it's not on your head, but also doesn't mean that there's not an answer to it either. I think especially with hormonal things, I was talking before about the importance of food, I think this is actually a really good example of where you might be doing fasting, you might be doing calorie restriction, but if it is a hormonal issue, food choices can have a huge, huge effect on that. So, if you're eating foods that are hormonally messing with you, that can be a barrier that you might not be able to break through unless you change the food choices.

Gin Stephens: Intermittent fasting doesn't solve every problem we have and it also doesn't create every problem we have. We hear it [unintelligible [00:42:03] Why is intermittent fasting not solving this problem that I've got? I thought it would. Well, maybe the cause of that is not something fasting addresses, fasting lowers your insulin, fasting does lots of things, but it doesn't change everything in your life. Sometimes, people will have a strange symptom. I've been fasting for two years, and all of a sudden, I have three cavities. Did fasting cause that? Well, we can't say because probably not. But what if you hadn't been fasting, do people still get cavities? Yes. It's impossible to untangle cause and effect.

For example, someone was asking me today. They're like, “Okay, you have a vibration plate, what benefits have you seen?” I'm like, “I can't really tell you because I don't know what would be happening had I not used it.”

Melanie Avalon: Ooh, can I talk about that really quick?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because when I interviewed Terry Wahls, she talks about vibration plates in her book. Probably 30% of our interview was talking about, not vibration plates, but e-stim, electrical stimulation, where they stimulate your muscle to grow. It basically makes you build muscle in the session, because it makes your muscle vibrate so fast. I was asking her about this, but I think a lot of people do it cosmetically-- or not cosmetically, but you can get it through a lot of spas and stuff. I think the brands are called EmSculpt or CoolToning. The point of all this was that MS patients often lose-- their muscles atrophy because they can't use their muscles, and she was talking about this e-stim, how it builds muscle and the profound, profound metabolic effects it has on the body. The insulin resistance actually typically starts at the muscle. When we're losing our muscle, we're losing a lot of our sinks to take in extra glucose. I'm just thinking about what the pandemic and everything. I think a lot of people, especially getting other gym routines, and if they have more physical-type jobs, the changes in muscle could actually be a huge thing.

I got really excited though, in the interview, because we were talking about it. I was just thinking about it and I said had they considered maybe using this for astronauts, because astronauts are in zero gravity and not using their muscles. Then she said her people or her team had actually proposed this to NASA.

Gin Stephens: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “Yes,” but then she couldn't say what they said. Hopefully, it's a good thing. Sorry, that was a tangent. Oh yeah, the vibration plates that Gin and I have. To be clear, the vibration machines don't make you grow muscle, but it is a very, very baby level of that where it's vibrating your body, so it's involuntary muscle contractions that your body actually does rebound from, so it's working out and they've actually done studies on it.

Gin Stephens: The point I was making--

Melanie Avalon: It was a rabbit hole.

Gin Stephens: That's okay. No, your tangent was fabulous, is that I don't have an alternate reality where I didn't use it. I can't say what changes it made if I hadn't ever used it. I don't really know. Maybe it's done a ton of things for me and 100% of my weight maintenance is because I have a vibration plate? I doubt it. But maybe. I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: Do you use it every day?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't use it every day. I use it a lot of days, but it's impossible to untangle cause and effect, is my point. Even everything, and we've talked about this before, even when they're doing like they're trying to do studies for things, there's so many different things that could be the underlying cause that you think it's one thing, but it really could have been something else, but we don't know because both of those things, you can't do one without the other happening.

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Gin Stephens: All right. Now, we have a question from Chris and the subject is “Heart Palpitations.” Chris says, “A 56-year-old male, doing IF for about a year, going great. Recently, I noticed that when I opened my window, 18:6 typically, with a turkey sandwich and some chocolate squares, my heart races. While I realize a racing heart isn't that bad, just wondering if you had any thoughts? I have experimented with no bread or chocolate, I seem to do better. Just weird that I didn't have that problem for a year, and here it is. Love the show. Thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Chris, thanks for your question. A lot of people do experience a racing heart after foods, and just from my experience and research, it's often a food sensitivity/reactivity problem. Because basically when you take in a food that your body perceives as a threat or something that you're sensitive to, it activates your sympathetic nervous system, your stress response, and that's why you get the racing heart rate. There's actually a method that people do where they test their food reactions by measuring their pulse. You can do it if you have done an elimination diet, where you've taken out foods that you are reacting to, and then you reintroduce them, and one of the ways to test if you are reacting to it is to measure your pulse before and after the food. It is most likely that you're reacting to something in the food. The reason that you didn't see it before and now it's just randomly popping up could be the fact that-- especially before we're doing IF or before we clean up our diet, the body can become more sensitive when we clean it out more. People perceive it as becoming more reactive when often the case is that it's just before you're perpetually inflamed or reacting. Then, once you “clean up” your-- cleanup, I don't like that word, but clean up your body through IF or food choices, it can become more clear that you're reacting to things, especially if you're doing fasting because, then you're in the fasted state, so you're not reacting to anything. Then when you take in food, it's a very obvious signal to the body.

Chris, what I would suggest would be playing around with the food choices to see what you do and do not react to. I made an app it's called Food Sense Guide. it compares over 300 foods for-- I always forget because I just updated it, 12 or 13 compounds and these are all things that people often react to, so gluten, FODMAPs, histamines, lectins, whether or not something is AIP, oxalate, there's so many things. Things that often get people racing heart is histamines, although turkey sandwich and chocolate squares, it's hard to know if there's anything high histamine in there. I would suggest looking at your food choices more maybe being open to trying a-- even if it's not an elimination diet, just looking at your food choices and seeing how you are reacting to things, then definitely get my app that might help you. That's at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide.

Gin Stephens: This is just another example of what I said a couple of minutes ago, in that intermittent fasting doesn't itself cause everything that we're experiencing. If you've been doing intermittent fasting for a year, and you're having something new occurring, it's unlikely that like, “Oh, fasting is now causing me to have heart palpitations.” No, it's something else. It's what you're eating and the way your body is responding to it.

Melanie Avalon: Although interestingly, it could seem like IF is causing things when really, it's because IF is the flashlight. It’s like if you were in a dark room, and somebody gave you a flashlight, and say the room is full of things you don't like, if the room was dark, you wouldn't know they're in there. Then, if somebody gave you a flashlight, all of a sudden, you might see all these things that you don't like, did the flashlight cause them? No, it just let you see them.

Gin Stephens: I've heard that same analogy for cholesterol, for example, like high cholesterol. High cholesterol is a sign that there's another problem. Within that analogy, they talk about firefighters showing up at a fire. The cholesterol is the firefighters showing up at the fire. It would be the same kind of a thing, like blaming the cholesterol is just like if we blame the firefighters for starting the fire. They just show up. “Those firefighters, every time there's a fire there they are. Let's get rid of firefighters.”

Melanie Avalon: Or, umbrellas causing rain.

Gin Stephens: Right. Exactly. I think with the cholesterol is the inflammation in our blood vessels, which often can be from-- people debate if it's sugar, or if it's polyunsaturated fats, or whatever it is, the cholesterol is in response to the inflammation. It's not the cause of it. Arterial plaque.

All right. To wrap this up, we have two quick questions about things that break the fast. We have one from Madeline. The subject is “Tea.” She says “I have a tea from Traditional Medicinals that is organic ginger, there are no calories. The only ingredient is organic ginger rhizome. I’m being so careful to adhere to a clean fast. This is okay or not. Thanks so much for your help. I get so cold in the afternoons and coffee is bothering my stomach.” Oh, that's why she needs it tea, sorry. I was thinking that that was like a non-sequitur, but okay. “Thanks for any help you can give me.” Then, we also have a question from Susan. The subject is “Flavored Seltzer.” She says, “I have a question about flavored seltzer. I have black coffee in the morning during fasting, so why can't I have lemon-flavored, no-sweetener, seltzer water. I mean, coffee and tea have a flavor. Why is the flavor of seltzer different? In other words, why does the subtle flavor of lemon or lime seltzer keep you from a clean fast while the strong flavor of coffee doesn't? Susie.” Alright, teas and seltzers.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually go into great detail on this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. in the Clean Fast section. People are often, like Susan’s question, are like, “Aha, you said avoid flavor, but coffee and tea have a flavor, we got you.” No. [laughs] It's different. The flavor of coffee and tea, that's a bitter flavor profile. A bitter flavor profile is not associated with an insulin response. Our bodies do not taste bitter flavors and think, “Oh, glucose is coming in, I need to release insulin.” That's why the coffee and the tea are okay, because of the bitter flavor profile. What we do want to avoid is anything that tastes like food. Would we say that ginger is a food? Yep, it has a flavor associated with food, and the same with lemon and the same with lime. It's a different type of flavor to your brain. It's a food flavor. We avoid food flavors during the fast. The bitter flavor profile of coffee and tea, they're not associated as a food flavor by your brain.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. One of the things that would make me a little bit nervous about ginger in particular is there's a lot of research on ginger. It helps with bloating a lot because it actually speeds up gut motility and can help with digestion. I feel like that most likely is sending a lot of digestion food signals. I just know that one of the things that I read was that it speeds up gut motility when you're eating, so I would be cautious about it. I would suggest possibly opening your eating window with organic ginger rhizome tea. That could be a really great way to do it. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Also, I have the perfect beverage for you, if you don't want to have something that breaks your fast, but you need something hot. Melanie, I bet you know what I'm going to say.

Melanie Avalon: Hot water.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Em-tea. Hot water and a mug. I'm having some right now.

Melanie Avalon: Nothing I want more than hot water in a mug.

Gin Stephens: It's fabulous, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Nothing I want more than a cold shower. Fabulous.

Gin Stephens: There's so many things I want more than a cold shower. All the things. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: We could do hot cold therapy. We could alternate hot water, drinking hot water and then getting in the cold shower and then we could drink the hot water in the cold shower.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, no, no. Not doing that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's a great question though, Susie. I love that you said, “Hey, it's a flavor. You said no flavor.” No, we avoid food flavors, so just think about that. Is this a food flavor? Is this a food or a food flavor? Spices, herbs, things like that.

Melanie Avalon: Lemon and lime are very-- they're fruity, even though they're sour. Yeah. All right. We have time for one more question. This comes from Lisa. Also, a carryover from our Ask Me Anything episode. She says, “Two questions, Gin. What brand of jeans do you like/buy? I often hear you saying you're wearing your size zero jeans as you record the podcast.” She says, “Melanie, if I had everything you mentioned in the podcast, I would have nowhere to store it all. Food deliveries, light machines, blocking glasses, mood rings, breathing necklaces, specialty makeup, pills and herbs, vibration plates, arms and leg weights. I listen a lot and I'm sure I've missed quite a few. If you could recommend just one you can't live without, what would it be? Thank you so much for this podcast. I love hearing you two discuss your lives and your knowledge. Sometimes, it's so over my head, my mind wanders out. But when one of you finishes your thoughts and passes the baton to the other, both of you always sound like you listen through the whole explanation. Surprises me every time. I often expect to hear, ‘I'm sorry, I got sidetracked.’ I just retired from 31 years teaching school in California. Now, with the pandemic, I spent hours in my sewing room. I'm always excited when you release a new podcast. I've been listening to all three. Thanks, again.” All right. I loved this from Lisa. Gin, what brand of jeans do you like/buy?

Gin Stephens: I shop at the Loft. They're the best jeans for my body. Their clothes just fit me. Yep. As I talked about, I never outgrew them, but jeans do have some stretch these days. So, my size zero jeans fit me a little maybe tighter, and now they're loose again. My Loft jeans. I love to shop at the Loft. This is not a Loft commercial. But hey, Loft, I would be glad to have one. I just really love the Loft.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I think I've only been to the Loft like twice maybe.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I really liked their clothes when I was a teacher. I was able to find things there that worked well for the classroom. Now that I'm not a teacher, their shorts fit me great. That's just where I do really well with clothes.

Melanie Avalon: Love it. Then if I had to pick one thing-- This is hard, so I hadn't considered-- because at first, I was thinking like biohacking type stuff. I wasn't considering Beautycounter, like especially makeup, but it's a tie between that because my skincare makeup is so, so important to me and removing toxins from it, and then having makeup that actually works and looks amazing. So, it's a tie between Beautycounter which you can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, and something special will happen if you use that link. Then, it's just so hard. I'm torn between my Joovv red lights and then the blue light blocking glasses, which kind of go together. I think I'm going to have to say Joovv, just because it has so many uses and running the red light has such a major effect on my mood. Then, you can use it as well for-- I use it more for ambient lighting and mood, but the main reason people usually get it is for fatigue, muscle soreness, skin, so targeted treatments for your body. So, probably that. But then, blue light blocking glasses are really important too. There're so many things. [sighs] Probably the Joovv and the Beautycounter though.

Our link for Joovv is, joovv.com/ifpodcast, I think there's a discount at that link if you use the code, IFPODCAST. I wanted to comment about the listening to the other person. One of the things I love about this show is, it's like the one hour where I just don't think about other things. I just really love sitting here and listening to Gin’s answers.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we have fun with it. We enjoy it.

Melanie Avalon: Just like being in the moment and disconnecting from the rest of social media for a second. Yeah, it's a fun time.

Gin Stephens: It really is.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, have you been posting on Instagram?

Gin Stephens: I have. Yeah. I mean, it's not exciting. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I posted today another video of putting on a continuous glucose monitor, of course set to a Taylor Swift song. If listeners would like to see what that looks like, you can follow us on Instagram. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. Oh, and you can get all this stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and the show notes, I don't think I even said this, are at ifpodcast.com/Episode203. There will be a full transcript there, so definitely check that out. All right. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it. Another good show.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 28

Episode 202: Caffeine Metabolism, Slow Eating, Hydration, Protein Intake, Insulin Resistance, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 202 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

FEALS: Feals makes CBD oil which satisfies ALL of Melanie's stringent criteria: it's premium, full spectrum, organic, tested, pure CBD in MCT oil! It's delivered directly to your doorstep. CBD supports the body's natural cannabinoid system, and can address an array of issues, from sleep to stress to chronic pain, and more! Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

Listener Feedback: Samantha - Eating with family

Listener Q&A: Christina - How much black coffee

Listener Q&A: sara - Black coffee

Listener Q&A: shelley - Podcasts....how do you listen to sooooo many??

Listener Q&A: Hannah - what if I don’t “Just Know”

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

Listener Q&A: jessica - Q&A

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 202 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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In fact, I even got robbed last year and I went from crying with stress and anxiety to taking some Feals and laughing. I said to my mom, “Mom, see how effective this is.” Due to all of its health benefits, we knew we wanted to partner with a CBD company for the podcast, but I have very stringent criteria. You guys know this. So many brands approached us, and I kept just saying, “No,” because nothing fit all of my criteria. I wanted CBD oil that was full spectrum, tested for purity, organic, made with MCT oil as the carrier and that I actually experienced benefits from. That's a pretty tall order to fill. We said no to a lot of brands, and then Feals came along. It was meant to be. I personally tried it out and started seeing massive effects on my sleep and stress. Feals is so easy to take. You can just put a few drops under your tongue, and you'll feel the difference within minutes. I truly do feel it within minutes.

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol, so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list, so definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fast and clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 202 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: [sighs] I'm in the stage of book writing, where one minute I'm like, “This is the best book I've ever written.” The next minute, I'm like, “This book is the worst book I've ever seen.” You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: It's the love-hate relationship of the writing process. It makes you question everything, and then you find something-- You find things people are saying. Then, you're like, “Alright, let me find something in PubMed that backs it up” and that's not what PubMed says, you're like, “What? Are we all wrong about this?” Then you start digging some more. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I feel it's the perfect example of can't see the forest for the trees, because you've been writing it for so long, and it's all your words, and you can't get a perspective of what it looks like from the outside.

Gin Stephens: Right now, it's a big ol’ hot mess, but it's getting there. I'm getting there.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of trees.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I like to just throw everything in a pile and then sort it. That's what I'm writing, like, it's a big, giant pile, and then I'm sorting it as I go.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I do. I like word vomit, write.

Gin Stephens: That's what I'm doing. I'm in the word vomit stage. That's a really good way of explaining it. Then you clean it up and make it tell a story and make sense. Right now, it feels like word vomit. I'm like, “How am I going to put that--” Anyway, I have the organizational structure obviously figured out, but it's a lot. You forget. It's like childbirth. Once you've had kids, you forget about the process. You're like, “Where’s my baby? My baby’s so pretty,” but you forget about all the hard parts. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I guess for me, it'd be like my septoplasty surgery.

Gin Stephens: There you go. It's worth it now, but going through it, you're like, “Why am I doing this again? I like my other book. That's enough.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I used to think I was original in saying this quote, and then I realized, I feel this is a really famous quote by somebody about writing with wine and then editing with caffeine.

Gin Stephens: I don't know if I've ever heard that.

Melanie Avalon: I always used to say I write with wine, and then I edit it with caffeine, but that's like a quote. Wait, let me look it up.

Gin Stephens: Well, it makes sense because you have to be in the flow. When you're writing and when you're in the creative process, you're in the flow, and you just let loose and you get out of your way. There's that word vomit that you talked about where you just put it all in there. Then, you go back, you're like, “What did I say?” That's when you need to focus and try to make it make sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. I'm sorry that you're off the wine train.

Gin Stephens: No, it's okay. Oh, sorry that I'm off the wine. Well, I am still a little bit salty about that. I must admit. The other night, I had a tiny micro-dose of wine. Chad can go through a bottle of Dry Farm Wines in two weeks. He drinks really slow. He's an original microdoser. He had some, so I poured a tiny little bit in my glass and had a little microdose, a little Melanie Microdose, and I was fine. Then, the next night I was like, “Well, I'm just going to have like an inch, an inch of wine. That's hardly anything.” Then I tossed and turned all night. [exhales] I know it really affects me.

Melanie Avalon: I've definitely learned with my Oura ring when wine does or does not affect my sleep and heart rate variability.

Gin Stephens: Oh, when does it?

Melanie Avalon: Normally, I usually have probably a glass, if that, before my one-meal-a-day dinner. If I do all that, I'm completely fine. Surprisingly, if I am at properly socially distanced gatherings where I'm drinking more, and even if it's not Dry Farm Wines, as long as it's earlier in the evening, and that's all I'm doing and then I come back, I'm actually still fine. It's only when I am drinking a lot more and I'm at home, so I think it's too close to going to bed, it's like the Oura ring knows, it's crazy.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't realize it again, like I said before, until I started with my bed tracking. I'd be like, “Oh my gosh, look at how little I slept last night.” Just like the Oura ring, it let me know, it tells me my heart rate variability and all of that. The point of it is it's hard to undo the association that my brain has with, “Hey, it's Friday night and I'm going to unwind with a glass of wine.” Even just one glass I feel like, “No, I don't need to unwind with wine.” That's a tongue twister.

Melanie Avalon: I know. My dad actually texted me yesterday because I got him Dry Farm Wines for Christmas. He's been texting me every time he opens the bottle, like, “Love the Dry Farm Wines.” Finally, yesterday, I was like dad he could sign up for a subscription, and so he is doing that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yay, Dad.

Melanie Avalon: I know my sneaky Christmas present maneuver because I want him drinking it because I think it's so much healthier. For listeners, if you'd like to get your own Dry Farm Wines, even if you just want to microdose it, like Gin, have a little tablespoon. Our link is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and at that link, you will get a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure listeners are laughing because how many of the things that you say that you do. I'm like, “I'm never going to do that.” Then I'm like, “Guess what I'm doing now?” [laughs] Oh, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I have a really fun story.

Gin Stephens: Okay, I love fun stories.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to tell you this after we talked, but I just realized I could just tell it on the podcast. My new obsession is-- not my new obsession, but my new research obsession is deuterium-depleted water. I think I've been talking--

Gin Stephens: See, I don't even know what that is. You said, and I'm like, “Yeah, I don't know what that is.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm really shocked that people don't know more about it. In the past week, I have talked to basically two of the main figures in that-- it's not even a movement because people aren't really aware of it, but in that sphere, and talking to them and doing research, I am blown away, how we're not thinking about this more. Basically, what it is like really long story short-- and you can ask Chad this, since this is about molecules.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Apparently there are three types of hydrogen. There's hydrogen, like hydrogen bombs that doesn't really exist anymore. There's proteome, which is the type of hydrogen found in normal water. Then there's deuterium, which is hydrogen with an extra neutron on it, so it's heavier than normal hydrogen, and so water can be made of both types of hydrogen. The heavier type, the deuterium-- because water goes into our mitochondria and is used for energy, the deuterium literally wrecks our mitochondria. It gunks up, which for listeners, if you're not familiar, our mitochondria are the part of our cells that generate energy in our body. When we take in high levels of deuterium, it literally slows down and impedes the entirety of our body's energy processes. I'm just blown away.

Gin Stephens: Was water naturally deuterium depleted or didn't have it? How's this happened?

Melanie Avalon: Like, why is it worse now?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes, the water changes. It has changed throughout time. We naturally deplete it through healthy practices. What's interesting is one of the guys that I interviewed this week, which has to do with the story, he said he thinks basically, the reason everything is helping the way it helps us, fasting and cold exposure, sauna, exercise, is because it's depleting deuterium. He thinks it's the common factor. He actually thinks it's the common factor in cancer. Yeah, so fasting depletes deuterium. A lot of the lifestyle things that we do that are considered to be unhealthy encourage deuterium buildup. The story is, I first heard about this-- Gin, I think you were on the interview, because it was our interview with Joovv, or I don't know if it was my interview, or the one that we both did. Do you remember it coming up ever?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's been so long.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When I interviewed Scott at Joovv, because I've interviewed him twice, and one of them was on this show. That's the first time I'd ever heard of deuterium. It was because I remember us both-- like I can see in my head, us both listening to him, talk about it. He had mentioned Dr. Que Collins, and this was literally like two years ago. I was like, “I’ve got to track down this guy, and bring him on my show.” A few months ago, I didn't reach out to him, his agents or his people reached out to me and asked if he could come on the show. I was so excited because I've been wanting to interview him for two years. We had the interview this past week. Gin-- Okay, so I got on the call and he started, freaking out, fanboying saying that he just realized this week that he was interviewing with me and how he's been a fan of me.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow.

Melanie Avalon: For a long time.

Gin Stephens: That's so awesome.

Melanie Avalon: It was crazy. I was like, “What? People know about me?” People I really look up to and respect, but it was just really, really exciting because I always feel I'm looking from the outside in through a window into the biohacking world. So, it's really exciting to know that people consider me--

Gin Stephens: You're inside the house.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs] I always feel I'm like looking in the window.

Gin Stephens: I know. Me, too. I know exactly what you mean. “What do you mean you've heard of me? What? Huh?”

Melanie Avalon: What? He was legitimately excited, and I was like, “This is so wonderful.” I'm really happy. For listeners, I will report back because, not him, but the other deuterium figure that I talked to, they're going to send me two months of deuterium-depleted water. So, I'm going to do a deuterium depletion protocol and test my levels before and after, and see if it changes my life.

Gin Stephens: How do you test them?

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure what the test is. I know there's a saliva test, a breath test, might be a blood test. I'm not sure.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's so interesting. I can't wait to hear. I'm not going to say I want to do that, as long as you don't have to do it while you're in the cold shower.

Melanie Avalon: No, the cold shower would help though. You do have to make all of your coffee with the deuterium-depleted water.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Right now, what I'm doing is they want me to figure out how much water I drink per day so they can know how much.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that would be tricky, because I have no idea. I'm really bad at tracking and measuring things.

Melanie Avalon: Drink out of the Whole Foods liter, so I'm just seeing how many I drink per day.

Gin Stephens: Right now, I'm drinking a mug of hot water.

Melanie Avalon: You and your hot water, I don't think I'm ever going to do that.

Gin Stephens: I know, because I'm freezing. I'm so cold. It's so good, though.

Melanie Avalon: But I like being cold.

Gin Stephens: I don't.

Melanie Avalon: It's just hot water.

Gin Stephens: It's so good. I promise you. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon: So is cold water. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I drink that too. It just makes me feel soothed from the inside out.

Melanie Avalon: Cold water on your body.

Gin Stephens: Hot water from the inside out.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we have some feedback from Samantha and the subject is “Eating with Family.” She says, “I keep hearing about moms who are trying to IF having issues with family meals. That's definitely an issue for many of us. Today's question partially had to do with the family having to wait around while mom finishes her meal. One of my children and I had this discussion yesterday. Kids are conditioned to eat quickly at school. We need to teach them to eat slowly at home and away from school. It's healthier in the long run to eat slowly and hear your body's cues and savor your food. Let's encourage moms to teach this. It helps everyone with the dilemma.” Man, I love that that is so true, as somebody who was a teacher for 28 years. They have, in Georgia, I don't know what it is everywhere else, but in Georgia, at our school, where I worked, they had 30 minutes, these were elementary kids, 30 minutes in and out of the cafeteria. That didn't mean 30 minutes at the table, because if you were running a little late to the cafeteria, or if the person who was before you in the lunch line [clears throat] teachers who are always late, that's my pet peeve because I was always on time. They were late and they would get there and they would hold you up or the lunch line, if it was pizza day. Your class might take eight minutes to get through the lunch line. Then, by the time they're seated that eats into their 30 minutes, maybe that 10 minutes is gone. You only have 20 minutes, and maybe they get up 30 minutes early, so they're really cramming in the food.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember that from the entirety of my school. I remember it being very distressing to me, because I like to have plenty of time. I don't like being just, in general, I don't like being rushed. Yeah, by the time you get your food, it was very, very brief that you actually had to eat. I think that's a huge problem. I think kids having to go to school so early, the sleep deprivation and everything.

Gin Stephens: Right, and that might not be their typical circadian rhythm of stage of their life of when they would want to get up or eat. Yeah, I love that idea. Instead of feeling like you have to keep up with their fast pace, teach them to learn from you and slow down.

Melanie Avalon: We don't talk about it much. I think it's one of my favorite things about intermittent fasting one meal a day is just how incredibly long I take to eat my meal. I love it. I love savoring it. I don't miss rushing meals.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't like to be in a rush either. Absolutely not.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so now we have two questions about coffee that I'm going to read. The first one is from Christina, the subject is “How much black coffee?” Christina says, “Is there a limit to how much coffee you can drink? I'm in my second week of the clean fast. I'm not very good with water, so drinking a few cups of coffee in the morning. Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, you want me to answer that one now?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: Okay, there really isn't an answer to that that would be universal. I've talked before about being a slow alcohol metabolizer. Meaning that the rule of thumb that we hear is that it takes an hour to metabolize one unit of alcohol, whatever that might be in terms of whether it's wine or beer, whatever. Well, that's not true for my body. My body clears alcohol more slowly, so I have to drink less alcohol than someone else. Then, you can also be a slow caffeine metabolizer. That's the thing. My DNA indicated I was not a slow caffeine metabolizer, thank goodness. So, I can handle caffeine better. Thank the Lord, I'd be so sad if I metabolized everything slowly, but coffee is not a problem for me. Wine is. I think you know when you're having too much, you can feel it. If you feel like it's affecting your sleep negatively, cut back on it. Our bodies tell us when we're having too much of something generally. When we look at long-term research on coffee, there is an association between longevity and coffee consumption. So, I wouldn't worry about, like, “Oh my gosh, is this bad for me?” If you feel great, you're probably fine.

Melanie Avalon: That was exactly what I was going to say was its individual, the caffeine metabolism rate. The half-life of caffeine-- I was thinking about this actually last night, because I was reading Shawn Stevenson's new book, Eat Smarter. He had a whole section on the half-life of caffeine and slow and fast caffeine metabolizers. He was saying the half-life of caffeine is about six hours, which means after you drink coffee, six hours later, half of the caffeine is gone. But that would completely depend, I think, on if you're a slow or fast metabolizer. In any case, I feel like just finding the amount that supports the best energy level for you without creating a slump or a drop, and also, which doesn't interfere with your sleep-

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great advice.

Melanie Avalon: -I think is huge, and that can be really different amounts for different people.

Gin Stephens: You know what really freaked me out when I realized I was a slow alcohol metabolizer, was the idea that maybe I accidentally did drunk driving the next day, without even meaning to. I would sleep all night and wake up. Let's say I'd been at the beach and then I had to drive home, was there enough alcohol in my system because I would never drive after drinking. Never, never, never. If I had one glass of wine, I wouldn't drive. But it's the next day, you're thinking, “I've been sleeping. It's 12 hours later, it must be fine.” Maybe I wasn't. Anyway, that freaks me out to think about because I'm such a law-abiding person. I would never-- I was like, the Uber girl, I would Uber everywhere the night of, but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I do want to throw out there. I do think in general though, I go back and forth. I do a lot of research. Sometimes, I'm like, I want to drink no coffee, I want to be like no stimulants, no depressants, no, nothing, just water and fasting. The studies pretty consistently show that moderate coffee consumption tends to correlate pretty well to so many health benefits.

Gin Stephens: It's those polyphenols.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I feel like it's that thing that if you like it, it makes you feel good, you should embrace it because it has benefits. Then maybe, occasionally, if you want to do a coffee fast where you're not drinking coffee to see how you feel, the self-experimentation that can be fun. I think this is just me speaking to my own insecurities. If it works for you, keep drinking it.

Gin Stephens: I also want to point out one thing that Christina said, she said, “I'm not very good with water.” I want to point out that there's a lot of guilt associated with water consumption these days. It's like a spin that's out there in society that you must force yourself to chug water all the time. Think back, Melanie, you follow the paleo lifestyle back in paleo days, were they carrying around jugs of water all the time?

Melanie Avalon: I highly doubt it.

Gin Stephens: Doubtful. We don't need to think of water consumption as guilt. There's also a mistaken truth, which means it's not true. It's a mistaken truth that people will repeat over and over-- because you know how when people just say things over and over again, you begin to accept it as it must be true, because I've heard so many people say it. They say, “Coffee doesn't count as your water.” I've looked into that, I've researched it, that is not true. Coffee is mostly water. The reason that whole thought comes from the fact that coffee maybe slightly dehydrating, but it's not more dehydrating than the amount of the water that you had with it. It doesn't make you have negative water balance. Let's say you have a cup of coffee, it doesn't suck out more than a cup of water from your body. You're still on the plus side. Would you be more hydrated if it were 100% water instead of coffee? Maybe. It's not going to be like negative hydration. Stop with that guilt.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I had heard as well, what you just said. Now I'm just thinking-- okay, follow this train of thought, let me know what your thoughts are on this. I wonder, however, that aside-- because one of the things I talked about in the deuterium interview was the potential ability of a given water substance to hydrate ourselves. There are a lot of factors that affect whether or not water actually is taken up by ourselves and hydrates us. I wonder if depending on context, it could be possible that coffee is dehydrating if the caffeine acts as a diuretic, so it pulls water out of the cells but because of the nature of water or your body or whatever, you're not necessarily getting the hydration benefits from the water.

Gin Stephens: Everything I've read says that it does not have a net dehydrating effect. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't deplete you. It adds water to your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have to revisit all of that.

Gin Stephens: I've researched that because people ask that all the time, and so I'll be like, “Let me look again, see what I see.” It always reinforces that everything I've found.

Melanie Avalon: What do they measure?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm wondering if they're measuring your-- I don't know the answer to this, I'm just thinking, is it they're measuring your total body water because that might not necessarily indicate hydration within the cell.

Gin Stephens: Well, here's the thing. We know that there are people out there that don't ever drink pure water by itself. Never. They always are drinking a fluid with something else. They don't drink water, they drink juice, they drink tea, they drink coffee, they drink soda. Those things are mostly water. They are liquids and they count. When you eat soup-- Actually, I've even read about-- you can actually get so much of your fluid intake through your foods, like that counts too. Like eating a carrot. Obviously, we're fasting during the day so that we would not be getting carrot fluid during your fast. But even just eating vegetation gives your body fluids.

Melanie Avalon: Most whole foods are mostly water, compared to processed foods which have no water. Even meat is extremely high in water. Which people, I think, find very shocking.

Gin Stephens: Well, our whole body is mostly water.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, exactly. I think we're 98% water.

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure, I can't remember. The point is, is that fluids are fluids. Don't be guilty about what your fluid is, whether it's coffee, whether it's tea, whether it's pure water. We're not that fragile. Some people have found that, “Hey, when I up my water intake, I do seem to have better weight loss.” All right, well, then nothing wrong with that, but stop with the guilt over it.

Melanie Avalon: I was just looking it up because I don't know why I have 98 in my head, something from our water conversation was 98% I the deuterium thing-- we're up to-- on average about 60%.

Gin Stephens: That's what I thought. I was thinking it was more like two-thirds.

Melanie Avalon: Muscles can be up to 79%.

Gin Stephens: It's been a long time since I've taught that lesson in the elementary science class but in my head, I was thinking two-thirds.

Melanie Avalon: Brain up to 85. I don't know what that 98 number was.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we read our next coffee question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Sarah. The subject is “Black Coffee.” She says, “Hi ladies, I'm about two weeks into IF. I'm trying to stick to 20:4. A couple times a week I end up at more like 16:8. I have found when I drink black coffee in the morning, I end up feeling so hungry, but when I skip it, I feel great. I love the taste and routine. So, I'm hoping that this is just part of the transition. Should I continue to skip it a few weeks, then try to introduce it again? I'm not adding anything to it. I grind my own whole beans, whole two shots of espresso, and add hot water to it. On a side note, I've been walking two to four miles each day while fasting and I love it. I listened to your podcast while I walk and it makes the time fly.”

Gin Stephens: All right. that's a great question. You're only about two weeks in. So, it's really, really hard to say whether it's the coffee or not, but you are right on target, Sarah, when you say that you need to experiment and see. You'll just need to try fasting without it. But give a solid try, a week, see what happens. Even maybe wait till your body adjusts because that is another factor the adjustment period. you'll just have to try it and see. Some people are awfully confused about coffee and whether it breaks a fast or not. Here are some of the common misconceptions people have. First of all, people think that when they drink coffee and then their stomach growls, that means it broke the fast. No. Stomach growling is a mechanical action that does not indicate your fast is broken. Also, some people think-- they'll test their blood glucose, and they'll say, “Oh gosh, every time I drink coffee, my blood glucose goes up. Coffee is breaking my fast.” Again, no, that's not what that means.

Coffee stimulates the liver to release stored glycogen. The glycogen is coming from inside you and being released into your bloodstream. Then, your body uses that glucose, that glycogen that was released and then your blood glucose goes back down. But remember, we want to stimulate or we want to deplete the glycogen in our liver over time, that's not a bad thing. Because once your body doesn't have that source of fuel from the liver, the glycogen, you can tap into your fat stores. Don't feel that blood glucose going up is a bad thing. Don't feel a stomach growl is a bad thing. Now, if you feel shaky or nauseous after coffee, that would be an indication that it's making you hungry, it might be dropping your blood glucose. Keep that in mind, keep those distinctions. A lot of people just are confused about all those concepts. What would you like to add, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was great. I just put on my-- I don't even know what number continuous glucose monitor we're on now, but I just put a new one on. For listeners, if you have a continuous glucose monitor, it can be really fascinating to see how your blood sugar responds to things like coffee and how it responds throughout the fast and all of that. But yes, I agree.

Gin Stephens: Totally fascinating. It really, really is.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it's both caffeinated and decaf coffee that makes her feel hungry.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't know that. She said--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, it's espresso.

Gin Stephens: You could have decaf espresso.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, true. I always associate espresso with caffeine. That just might be something to try, one or the other. The opposite of whatever you're doing.

Gin Stephens: Yep. We are very much an experiment of one. All right. We have a question from Shelley, and this is subject, “Podcasts. How do you listen to so many?” Therefore, we know this was for Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Because Gin does not listen to podcasts.

Gin Stephens: Even if people send them to me, they're like, “Please listen to them.” I don't want to listen to that one. I don’t have time.” Shelley says, “I started IF at the beginning of 2020, and pretty much stuck with the program for the entire year. This was the bright spot of my 2020. I lost 30 pounds and felt in control of my eating. I still have about 15 pounds to lose, but I'm confident that I can do it. My question, every time I hear Melanie say, ‘I listened to that on a podcast,’ which she says all the time. I always wonder what does she do when she's listening to all those hundreds of podcasts? I listen while I do my stretching, strength training, and while I do housework. If I sit down at night to listen, I fall asleep. It really is a burning question. What are you doing while you listen, Melanie? Thanks for all you ladies are doing in the IF world.”

Melanie Avalon: Thanks, Shelley, for your question. I basically have an audiobook or podcast going-- I'm just thinking about the phrase 24/7 because the phrase 24/7 means constantly, but technically, it's not 24/7, because we don't do anything 24/7 except be alive or breathe. I basically listen 24/7 and whenever I'm doing something that doesn't require concentration, so something I can multitask with, I just have it playing in the background all the time. Driving, exercising, working on website, blogs, it's just always playing. It's like the soundtrack of my life. If I need to focus, I listened to music instead.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I always listen to music, except for if I'm trying to focus, then I can't even listen to music.

Melanie Avalon: If it's something where I can't be distracted, I listen to instrumental music, movie scores.

Gin Stephens: I have to have quiet. I do much better with quiet.

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever tried the focus music with the specific binaural beats are like--

Gin Stephens: I've tried it even in my classroom with students. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Does that work for you, or no?

Gin Stephens: I do better in quiet. I just do. I do better in quiet.

Melanie Avalon: I go to the grocery store every single day because I must go to the grocery store every single day. On the way there and then while shopping and all that, I listen. There's so much to listen to. One of the most freeing decisions I made-- I feel this was right around the beginning of when the pandemic started, but I just had a moment where I was like you don't have to try to listen to every single podcast ever. If I saw any podcasts remotely related to something I wanted to know about, I would put it in this to-listen list, and it was getting so long and I was getting so overwhelmed. Then, finally, I just let it go and I was like, “It's okay. You don't have to listen to everything. You can listen to what you want to listen to.” That has been very freeing. I encourage listeners, if you have that trait at all, where you think you have to do all the things, you don't have to do all things.

Gin Stephens: That's very true.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so the next question comes from Hannah. The subject is, “What if I don't just know?” Hannah says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. You always say that if something breaks your fast, you'll know. My question is that if I don't have a reaction to my fast being accidentally broken, does that somehow indicate that my body isn't really getting into the fat-burning state? I've been doing IF for nine months with an average one meal a day of 21:3, and an occasional meal-less Monday, thanks, Roxy.”

Gin Stephens: Roxy is one of my amazing moderators. She leads a thread called meal-less Monday, where people who are doing an alternate daily fasting approach and fasting on Monday, they fast together in the thread and cheer each other on one. Then, Tuesday is their up day.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool.

Gin Stephens: She's pretty awesome. She's also been on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and I consider her to be a great friend.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you, Roxy. She says, “I lost 20 pounds in the first four months that I am maintaining, which I am just delighted about. However, I still have at least 50 pounds to go and I've been stalled for several months. I know I'm insulin resistant because I was diagnosed with PCOS five years ago. Luckily, I was still able to have my two little ones. I recently had my fasting insulin tested and it was at 10. I keep telling myself that this plateau is just my body healing on the inside, but as I listened to your podcast, I'm also realizing that I don't have the same sensitivity to a broken fast that other IFers experience.

I've never felt shaky or hungry by accidentally licking a finger while cooking. I've had a sip of sweet tea before thinking it was unsweet and had no reaction. I've also tested myself by sipping something flavored on purpose and nothing happens. What could this mean? Am I not getting into the fasted or fat-burning state in the first place, and this is causing my plateau? Is my insulin resistance so severe that this is just going to be a very long road for me? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you so much for continuing to devote yourselves to spreading the word about IF. You two are truly a blessing to so many people.”

Gin Stephens: This is such a great question because it gets into the physiology of insulin resistance, high levels of insulin, and you've got the data there, which makes it, Hannah, your data shows beautifully what I'm going to explain. We've talked about chronic high levels of insulin, hyperinsulinemia are not good for our bodies. You've got PCOS, which is linked to high levels of insulin. Your insulin was tested, and it was at 10, which is higher than you want to have it when you're really metabolically in a good place. You know that you're insulin resistant. Hand in hand with high levels of insulin, we typically have high levels of blood glucose over time as well, because insulin resistance, it's that whole path you go down. Your insulin goes up, up, up, up, up over time. Then people generally start having more trouble with their blood glucose swinging up and being chronically high. Your A1c may be high when you have it tested. Then eventually, you may end up diagnosed as type 2 diabetic with the high blood glucose that's chronic.

Let's think about what would happen if we tasted something sweet and we were normal. My blood glucose is at normal levels during the fast. Melanie sees that with her CGM, I saw that when I wore mine for the Zoe test, my blood glucose was at a normal level. It ranged up and down a little bit, but it wasn't high, it wasn't low, it was just in that normal range up and down. Here it goes. If I had had something sweet, like a sip of sweet tea, and my body released insulin in response to that, the insulin would have cleared away some of my blood glucose and I would have had a crash. I would have felt shaky, I would have felt hungry. In fact, that's what happens to me when I have for example, Starbucks, that Nitro Cold Brew. It apparently tricks my brain into thinking that something sweet and creamy is coming, so I have a cephalic phase insulin response. I always get shaky and starving after having it. I think it makes my blood sugar crash because I've had an insulin response.

However, if my blood glucose was already high, and then I had whatever that is, the sweet tea, that Nitro Cold Brew, the sweet whatever it is, the licking your finger, my body can pump out a little insulin and bring down my blood glucose, but not enough for me to feel it as a low. I'm not going to be shaky because my blood glucose didn't go down into that shaky range. It just went down, maybe now it's a little more normal, if my blood glucose had been high before now it's normal, but I don't feel it. That's why you can't use the you'll know a thing. I actually don't always say that you'll know. In Fast. Feast. Repeat., I actually say this is not a foolproof way of telling. It just depends on what your blood glucose is doing. Did I explain that well enough, Melanie, did that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: That was beautiful.

Gin Stephens: I need people to be able to see me because I'm doing all these hand motions. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's funny, and just a reference for listeners for insulin levels, because Hannah said that her fasting insulin was at 10. If you'd like to learn all about insulin, like a deep, deep, deep dive, check out-- I'll put a link in the show notes to the interview that I did with Dr. Benjamin Bikman for his book, Why We Get Sick, really, really fascinating. That was actually I think, my first episode of the New Year and people just loved it. He talks about insulin in deep depth, and he recommends-- is it less than a 6, I think, insulin levels?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think 6 is really good for metabolic health. 10, I was going to say this, and I'm glad that you mentioned it, because I forgot. 10 is “normal.” If you got a 10 and somebody was looking at it, who didn't really understand ideal. They might say, “Oh, 10, that's normal, you're fine.” Well, also, insulin resistance is sadly normal these days. Just because you're in that normal range, doesn't mean you're at an optimal, healthy level. Yes, 6 is a good something to aim for, or below.

Melanie Avalon: He said, ideally, your blood insulin levels should be less than 6 micronutrients per milliliter of blood. 8 to 9 is the average for men and women, but it's not good to be average. In this case, a person with 8 actually has-- this is interesting, a person with 8 actually has double the risk of developing type 2 diabetes as a person with 5. He recommends less than 6, the technical average is 7 to 17. Greater than 18 is considered conventionally an issue. But like he said, less than 6.

Gin Stephens: Mine was less than 5.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine was, I think, 4 or something when I got it tested, which made me really happy. I was like, “What if it's really high?” I just want to echo what Gin said about really fabulous that Hannah has done this testing and actually has these markers. Just out of curiosity, Gin, so let's see, we got this question from somebody else. They actually didn't have PCOS and their insulin was really good. They had this experience-- I don't know, have you come across have people have this experience where they don't perceive being insulin resistant?

Gin Stephens: We're all different in so many ways. We all probably are likely to have a personalized insulin response as well. My husband has very low levels of insulin. They were in the twos. That is very low. Here's something about Chad that I've said before, he's never struggled with his weight. He's always been very, very thin, the biggest his waist ever got was 32, for a man that's really small. Having low, low levels of insulin, could he drink diet soda all day long and probably be fine? I don't know, but he probably pumps out less insulin than I do. I think that we're all different when it comes to how much insulin we pump out. He might be able to “get away with it.” Obviously, that wouldn't be recommended, because I think over time, it's not going to have a good effect long term. But it would explain why people have different responses because we really do pump out different levels of, I mean, everything.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, with insulin resistance, one of the main issues is your baseline insulin basically has to be higher to keep everything at the same place that another person would be at. That person's body who's insulin resistant, in a way, they are experiencing the same effect and the same body processes as a person with lower insulin levels, but just the bar is all set up way higher.

Gin Stephens: It inches its way up over time.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it definitely does, slowly. Dr. Benjamin Bikman talks about that. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not like you wake up insulin resistant and you were fine the day before. It's a slow, insidious creep, which is nice, because that means there's a lot of time to reverse that.

Gin Stephens: Well, one of the best articles I ever read was the one that talked about how are we testing the wrong thing with A1c. I can't remember the name of the article, but it was written, I think, by a nurse practitioner, I can't remember, but it was, we're measuring A1c and it would be much better if we measured insulin levels, fasted insulin levels, because that's the precursor to A1c going up. So, if we tested fasting insulin levels, if someone had high fasted insulin, but a normal A1c, we know that's, like, “Well, we're on the rise up.” Eventually it follows along.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, A1c, it's a longer-term picture of how long and how often the extent to which your blood sugar levels are elevated, because when your blood sugars are elevated, it glycates your blood protein, so it's looking at how glycated are your blood proteins. The turnover for those is three months. It shows you in the past three months what has your overall blood sugar-- you don't get a blood sugar number, obviously, but it's showing how severe was your elevated blood sugar levels.

Gin Stephens: When you start fasting, it isn't going to affect your A1c that day, it takes time.

Melanie Avalon: Right, because like I just said, three months is how long it takes to-- I don't know if that's the half-life or the turnover. I'm not sure. I wish they did test insulin instead.

Gin Stephens: I want to get back to what Hannah said, “Is this just going to be a long road for me?” Well, yeah, it is more likely to be a long road, which I know is not what you want to hear. But if you know you have PCOS, you know you're insulin resistant, that is where strategy, more alternate daily fasting than one meal a day is what I would recommend. I would recommend more down days, maybe a 5:2 hybrid approach. Instead of just meal-less Monday, have Monday and Thursday. You're coming up with a hybrid approach, unless you want to do straight ADF, which is every other day, but that's pretty intense and it was a lot when I tried it. Of course, it's been years, five years ago since I did that. What I would probably start with for you is maybe Mondays and Thursdays, as meal-less days, you can also experiment with them as a down day with the 500-calorie down day approach, reread that chapter of Fast. Feast. Repeat. to remember, you know why to do it like that if you want or how to do it. Monday and Thursday down days, that would mean that Tuesday and Friday would be up days, those are metabolic boost days where you need at least two meals, three is also fine. Then you could do one meal a day the other days if you like it, that would be okay. Having those two longer fasts a week, that Monday and then that Thursday fast, 36 to 42 hours, two of those a week would really help bring down your insulin even more.

Melanie Avalon: One other thing I will draw attention to is-- this made me happy that she realized this, she said she knows she's insulin resistant because of her PCOS diagnosis. PCOS is considered-- definitely within the holistic health world, it's pretty much considered that insulin resistance is usually a, if not the primary cause of it. Actually, when I had Dr. Bikman on, I asked him, like, “Is it accepted now that that's basically the cause?” He said not conventionally, but usually basically that's the cause. I know a lot of women struggle with that. There’s been so many studies on-- I think when it comes to females and fertility and hormones and fasting, a lot of the studies on fasting females is often looking at PCOS. It's usually very beneficial, which does not come as a surprise, since we know how fasting affects our insulin sensitivity. It's very exciting.

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Gin Stephens: We have a question from Jessica. The subject is “Q and A.” She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I love your podcasts. Thanks for everything that you do. I was just listening to an interview with Robb Wolf on another podcast and he was talking about how important it is to get enough protein. He was basically saying that while it is really important that we don't eat around the clock, so maintaining some sort of daily fasting protocol, it's also really important to get enough protein in and it's not easy to do that if you fast too much. He specifically called out one meal a day as being incompatible with sufficient protein intake.”

Melanie Avalon: He hasn't met me. [laughs] Wait, he has met me. Oh, my goodness, he has met me. Never mind.

Gin Stephens: Well, he also doesn't follow my definition of one meal a day. Hmm. [laughs] I'm sure he probably is thinking it's 23:1 because that's what people are nowadays, that just has become the definition of it. Even though back in 2015, when I started my one meal a day group, we were the very first one meal a day group on Facebook. We've never considered it to be 23:1. Ideas take root and now pretty much the idea is one meal a day is 23:1. It's hard to get that out of everybody's minds if they're using that terminology everywhere. I will never consider it to be 23:1. I know you don't do 23:1. I bet you, he's talking about 23:1. I have never one time in my life suggested that everybody do 23:1. I just want to say that.

Melanie Avalon: I feel this happens too often where ideas get crystallized about certain things and then they they're just spit out as fact. We were talking about this earlier in the show. Just today in my group, somebody was asking about one meal a day and then somebody commented and was like, they said, “You can't lose weight on one meal a day. It's just for maintenance.” Then they quoted somebody. I'm just like, “I don't know.”

Gin Stephens: That's just suddenly spouted out as truth. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's why actually one of the only rules of our group is phrase everything as opinions. It's so important with all of this that we say, I think it's the case that this is the way it is, because we realize we don't know anything and it's so easy to just spit out something as a fact and then once one person hears it, everybody hears it.

Gin Stephens: All those tens of thousands of people that have been in my groups that have lost weight with one meal a day, they didn't really lose weight. Okay. No, they did. They did lose weight. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I do not all like censorship or anything like that, but I do debate if somebody says something as a like straight-up fact, even if it's a fact I agree with, it's really important to me that we add, “I think,” because all it takes is people reading things as facts and then they run with it. It's like the telephone game where you whisper one thing, and then it changes. So, tangents. Shall we finish her question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. She goes on to say, “I found this a bit concerning as I have been fasting for almost a year now. For the last several months, I've been doing 20:4, which is pretty much one meal a day.” Well, yeah, as Melanie and I define it, yes. Maybe not as Robb Wolf defines it, that would be really important to know, maybe he was talking about 23:1, and I suspect he was. “I know you both follow a loose one meal a day protocol and I, of course, know how much Melanie appreciates the paleo lifestyle and Robb Wolf is a proponent of it. I thought you guys might have some helpful insights. Thanks again and keep up the awesome work you do. Jessica from Portland.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jessica. Thank you for the question. Yes, I'm a Robb Wolf fangirl, if there ever was one. For those who are not familiar, he wrote the New York Times bestselling which Gin is also a New York Times bestseller. He wrote The New York Times bestselling book, The Paleo Solution. He also wrote Wired to Eat. His most recent book called Sacred Cow, which is actually-- I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast for that show. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Yes, he is basically one of the founding father figures of the paleo movement. He is big, big, big on the role of protein and the importance of protein and diet. We actually talked about this in that interview that I did, I brought him on for Sacred Cow. The interview was about the environmental impacts, and the implications of having or not having animals and regenerative agriculture and the future of our environment. One of the most fascinating conversations and books I've ever read.

If I had them on the show, I obviously going to ask them all the other things. We did talk a lot about protein. It's funny, because, yes, a lot of people will say that you can't get enough protein in a short eating window. Actually, when I had Cynthia Thurlow on the show, she as well said, especially for women, that she finds this often to be a problem. I actually do think this might be a problem for a lot of women, because they don't have the problem that I have, which is I could eat-- I have the opposite problem. I can eat so much protein, animal protein which is the most complete form and dense. I can eat pounds and pounds of it easily. I don't have the experience of struggling to eat enough of it. When I aired the episode with Cynthia Thurlow-- listeners, if you're interested in this, also listen to that episode because we dive even deeper into protein. We did talk about this how much protein especially women need and how it might be a problem with fasting.

When I posted that episode, I was actually really surprised that that was the thing that my audience seemed to identify with, or it really hit home with him the most because I do a weekly giveaway in my Facebook group where you can comment what you learned from the episode and so many people said that hearing that about protein intake was a really big thing for them. I think we already said this, but no, I do not think one meal a day is incompatible with sufficient protein. I don't think that at all.

That said, I think there's nuances to it. I think some people if you're struggling to eat enough protein, which I recommend probably one gram per pound of body weight and that's on the high side compared to the conventional recommendations, because the conventional recommendations, the standard American recommendations, I think it's one gram, I could be wrong-- but I think it's one gram per pound of lean body mass, which ends up being less, but I like to aim for one gram per pound of body weight. I personally have no problem achieving that. If you do find that you can't really get enough protein in your one meal a day, I think there's nothing wrong with having a longer eating window to accommodate for that.

Also, if you're specifically looking to build muscle, you don't have to have protein throughout the day to build muscle to support muscle. Not at all. We talked about this so many times on the show. That said, if you're looking to make substantial muscle gains, I think there is a benefit to having punctuated times a protein intake set apart, because there is a cap to the amount of muscle growth that you can do at any one time. If you want to get a growth stimulus twice throughout the day, you'd probably need to have two separate protein meals, that might be more accommodated by a 16:8 approach.

Long story short, I think protein intake is key, key, key. Emphasizing it is super important for health, for bone health even. For weight loss, it's a highly thermogenic food. It supports body composition, it supports health, we need protein. Yes, I think you can get it in one meal a day, but if you're not, definitely be open to lengthening the window.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great. Also, don't forget our bodies are recycling protein during the clean fast. That's one of the things that happens with autophagy. Not all of our protein intake has to come from food you're putting into your mouth, just keep that in mind. One thing I love, and I actually learned it from you, Melanie, since you read more about it is Ted Neiman’s protein leverage hypothesis, which makes so much sense, because I don't listen to podcasts. I've never heard him on a podcast say it, but I've read about it since you mentioned it.

Anybody that's read anything I've written or listened to me on this podcast knows that I'm a big believer that our bodies communicate with us and want us to have what we need. We get signals like hunger, when we're not sending what we need to our bodies, if we're not sending enough nutrients down. The protein leverage hypothesis is that basically, protein is a need that we will meet and our bodies will say keep eating, keep eating, keep eating until you've met that need. I think that's true. Just with myself, I think it's really true. I think it's true for lots of nutrients, but protein specifically, because it's something we really, really need. I don't always eat meat. I had meat last night, let me think, am I going to have meat tonight? Yes, I'm going to have meat tonight, then the next night I won’t because I'm thinking about the meals I have in my kitchen, with my Green Chef meals.

Anyway, with the meals that I have coming up that I have in my kitchen, I'm not going to have meat every night. But if I go several nights in a row, and I don't have meat, maybe a week with no meat, my body is like have some meat. I think my body lets me know when I need more protein. Or maybe I'll feel like throwing eggs on something, or I'm just not satisfied. I really think it's true for me. My body lets me know when I need more meat or more protein, I also get a lot of protein through beans. I wouldn't worry about it. Unless you feel like you're hungry, if you are not satisfied, it might be that you don't have enough protein and consider having more.

Melanie Avalon: I 100% agree with the protein leverage hypothesis theory. I am not full in my one meal day until my body I think has received the protein that it needs. It's so interesting people often posit fat as being super key for satiety, but it doesn't create the same satiety effects that protein does, for example, it doesn't encourage longtime satiety. According to at least Ted's book, protein is the only macronutrient that encourages both short term and long-term satiety, sorry, that's a tangent, but I think we think protein is very important. It all comes back to what we always say, which is N of 1 and find what works for you. I'd be really interested to know what interview, Jessica that you were listening to where he said that, I just would like to hear what he said. Feel free to send it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be great to know.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I got sad because I checked to see when this was airing and I thought maybe this would have aired before Valentine's Day, but this will be after Valentine's Day. Friends, if you're not on my Instagram, get on it, because on Valentine's Day, I'm giving away so many epic things on Instagram.

This week we're doing a signed book giveaway for Dr. Alan Christianson’s The Thyroid Rest Diet. Yesterday, I put up a giveaway for $3,000 worth of blood tests from InsideTracker give away completely free. Then on Valentine's Day, Apollo Neuro, the sound wave therapy device that I have, that I'm obsessed with, they asked if I wanted to give away two on Valentine's Day.

Gin Stephens: Like for a couple?

Melanie Avalon: Because they were like, “Do you want to do giveaway?” I was like, “Sure,” they're like, “Do you want to do for Valentine's Day?” I was like, “Sure.” They're like, “Do you want to give away two?” I was like, “Sure.” [laughs] Basically, friends get it on my Instagram, because there're so many things.

Gin Stephens: If people, they're going to miss it, no, it's too late, because this will already come out, but you join today because you never know what's coming out tomorrow.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm on the giveaway rollercoaster now.

Gin Stephens: I'm not going to give you anything, you can look at my cat.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I know. Gin is not the giveaway. [laughs] You could give away signed copies of your book.

Gin Stephens: I could.

Melanie Avalon: I give away a lot of Beautycounter on my Instagram.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to show you my cat, and if I do something fun with beans, [laughs] and that's pretty much it.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's so fun. Check us out on Instagram. You can find all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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