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Apr 04

Episode 207: Gin’s New Social App, Whoosh Effect, Water-weight & Inflammation, T1 Diabetes, Energy Toxicity, Collagen, Vitamins, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 207 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BIOPTIMIZERS: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Support Your Gut Health With A Patented, Proteolytic, Anti-Viral, Superstar Probiotic, P3OM! Go To p3om.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off Any Order!

 PREP DISH: Prep Dish is an awesome meal planning service which sends you weekly grocery and recipe lists, so you can do all your meal preparation at once, and be good to go for the week! It's perfect for the IF lifestyle! And better yet, the meals are all gluten free or Paleo, which is fantastic if you're already doing so, but also a wonderful way to "try out" gluten free or Paleo with delicious meals, and no feelings of restriction!! We can't recommend them enough! Try Prep Dish's Super Fast Menu And Get A Free 2 Week Trial At prepdish.com/ifpodcast!

ASPIRATION: Aspiration is a new kind of financial partner that puts our customers and their conscience first. Get A $50 Bonus When You Create An Account With Today's Sponsor Aspiration. Go To joinaspiration.com/ifpodcast!

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BIOPTIMIZERS: Go To p3om.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off Any Order!

3:25 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Delay Don't Deny Social Network

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #86 - Harpreet Rai (Oura)

24:10 - PREP DISH: Try Prep Dish's Super Fast Menu And Get a free 2 week trial At Prepdish.com/ifpodcast! You'll get weekly gluten-free and Paleo grocery and recipe lists!!

25:50 - ASPIRATION: Get a $50 bonus when you create an account with today's sponsor Aspiration. Go To joinaspiration.com/ifpodcast!!

27:45 - Listener Q&A: Jamie - Whoosh 

The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating (Gary Taubes)

Big Fat Keto Lies Book (Marty Kendall)

The Case for Keto by Gary Taubes – honest review

47:20 - Listener Q&A: Daniela - Collagen/Vitamins

Aspen Naturals Grass Fed Bovine Collagen Peptides Powder

Aspen Naturals Marine Collagen

52:00 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

55:00 - Listener Q&A: Elizabeth - Starting IF After HCG

Follow Melanie On Instagram To See The Latest Moments, Products, And #AllTheThings! @MelanieAvalon

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 207 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I’m here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, Gin and I talk about the importance of gut health all the time on this show. You guys know we are obsessed with the gut microbiome. There's also a lot of confusion out there surrounding probiotics. There are so many different probiotics. It can be so hard to know what to take. I personally have actually experimented with a lot of probiotics over the years. A lot. You guys know me. Did you know there's only one probiotic that I have consistently taken almost every single day, since I found it? It's a nonnegotiable. I see, such radical improvements in my gut health, when I take this probiotic, and it's not just me, you guys, and my audience tell me all the time about how you feel this way as well. That is P3-OM. What is P3-OM? It's a patented probiotic that actually eats up excess sugar, eliminates bad bacteria fast, and protects your gut from inflammation and viruses. What initially made me so intrigued by this probiotic is that it is proteolytic meaning it can actually digest protein. I even saw a video on the BiOptimizers website of the probiotic digesting a steak. Yes, a steak.

P3-OM has also been shown to improve digestion, speed up metabolism, and increase energy throughout the day. What also makes it unique is that it can survive the gastrointestinal tract, and it goes through your whole body to support both your gut and your entire immune response. It's a secret weapon for reducing or eliminating bad gas and upgrading your immunity and protection against bad bacteria. It's personally one of my go-to tools in my biohacking arsenal. I have some fantastic news for you guys. You can get 10% off P3-OM right now, when you go to p3om.com/ifpodcast and type in the coupon code, IFPODCAST10. By the way, if you order it and it's not everything you hoped for, the BiOptimizers support team will give you all your money back, no questions asked. To get that discount, just go to p3om.com/ifpodcast to get a 10% discount on one of my favorite probiotics P3-OM with the coupon code, IFPODCAST10. We'll put all this information in the show notes. One more thing before we jump in.

Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare and makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol, so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift, that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fasting clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 207 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I’m Melanie Avalon, and I’m here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am worn out. I am riding high on a bunch of emotions, good emotions, scary emotions, all sorts of emotions.

Melanie Avalon: That's good.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Do you want me to elaborate a little bit?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, would you like to elaborate?

Gin Stephens: Well, we're recording this in mid-March. Yesterday, I finally announced to the public in the advanced group on Facebook, the project that I’m working on since the beginning of the year, and that was, I have launched Delay, Don’t Deny social network off of Facebook. It's a membership-based platform. Yes, members do need to pay to join. It's $4.99 a month. If you, what's the word, amortize your membership, it's $59.95 a year, and you join and that works out to $4.99 a month, if you join for the year as a founding member. Yes, it's a membership site. Now, we're all together, I have all the spinoff groups going on. It's hard to explain. I was letting people start spinoff groups. We had one spinoff group over there, and another spin off group over there, and I felt like I was losing touch with the community. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I didn't have time to manage-- Facebook takes a lot to manage groups. You have membership requests, you have posts to approve, you have people coming in, they don't know who you are, why they're there. It takes a lot of work to manage it. We've got over 100 groups on the new platform. The address is dddsocialnetwork.com. DDD for Delay, Don’t-Deny. dddsocialnetwork.com. Like I said, we have over 100 groups, and they're not all intermittent fasting. We've got groups for different fasting styles, one meal a day, alternate daily fasting, the hybrid approach, but we also have a paleo group, Melanie. We have a vegetarian group. No matter how anybody eats, we've got a group for it. We've got hobbies, we've got different exercise styles. We've got a group for people who are interested in starting podcasts and writers, because a lot of people in my community have started podcasts and written books, which is one of the things, I’m a teacher, nothing makes me prouder than seeing other people create content. Does that make sense? Like inspired, they're like, “Well, Gin did a podcast, I can do a podcast,” or, “Gin wrote a book and self-published it. Melanie wrote a book and self-published it, and I can do that too.”

I feel like in a way the Delay, Don’t Deny community has been an incubator for some of these amazing people that I've connected with in the groups. Graeme Currie, he's got a great podcast called The Fasting Highway, and he started off just in my group. He's written a book. He's from Australia. We'll have a group for people who want to do stuff like that, so they can connect and talk about platforms and the process. We even have a group about dogs and cats if you're a pet lover. [laughs] The tag line is we want to be your favorite social network, because we really do. We were on Facebook, we've been on it for so long, but it's gotten a little harder to navigate, and the artificial intelligence has gotten a little weird lately. Like over Christmas in the Life Lessons group, we had some weird, we got something that Facebook was like, “This post does not-- it goes against community standards. Please review it.” I’m like, “Oh, my God, that sounds so scary.” I went to review it, it was covered up with a mask and how Facebook will cover something. Have you ever seen that?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Well, if they think it might be questionable, they're like, “Click on it on your own risk.” I’m like, “What was someone trying to post?” I clicked on it to see what it was that was so questionable and objectionable. It was a Christmas bow tutorial.

Melanie Avalon: That’s strange.

Gin Stephens: The artificial intelligence called it drug paraphernalia, but it was bows made of raffia. The artificial intelligence is also picking up on certain words as hate speech and bullying, like one of the moderators got put in Facebook Jail for clicking on something incorrectly, and then she said, “Oops, I apologize. I must have fat thumbs.” They put on Facebook Jail and said it was hate speech. Clearly, it wasn't, fat thumbs is a saying.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't know there was a Facebook Jail.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've been In Facebook Jail before. I liked too many things too quickly?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the artificial intelligence--

Melanie Avalon: I've commented too much before.

Gin Stephens: Yes, the artificial intelligence looks for people who are doing things too rapidly. You have to take things slowly on Facebook. So, ever since then if I'd make a post and 100 people comment, I just want to go like, like, like, like, like, no, you cannot do that. I lost the ability to post for 24 hours, when I was in Facebook Jail that time. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's weird when it happens in your own group, like it's your group, because it's done that to me, I’m like, “Wait, but this is my group. I should be able to post whenever I want.”

Gin Stephens: You can't though. It's just a million little things like that. You hear stories. My friend Sheri that does the Life Lessons podcast with me. She has a friend, who was running a cooking group. It had like 10,000 members, was a cooking group. She woke up one morning, and her cooking group had been removed from Facebook, and she had been blocked from Facebook, like her account was deactivated, based on something that had happened in the cooking group overnight. I realized that we're at the whim of a platform. Now, I’m not knocking Facebook, because we have enjoyed being there for years and it has helped us grow this wonderful community. I will always have love for that platform, and what it allowed us to build. But at the same time, that terrified me that, I have that one group, the 300,000 plus member group that if something went really terribly wrong-

Melanie Avalon: Right, it could just disappear.

Gin Stephens: -it could disappear and I wouldn't be able to contact those 300,000 people at all. I don't have their email addresses, I don't know, would they ever find me again? I don't know. I’m one of those worst-case scenario people, like what could go wrong, always think about that. I’m like. “I don't want to lose this community that I've built.” We started the new platform, launched it yesterday-- Yeah, there's been some positives and some growing pains with it, not everyone was thrilled that I was starting a membership site, because people say-- well, rightly so, intermittent fasting is free and intermittent fasting continues to be free. However, starting a paid platform is very, very expensive, and Facebook is free, but why is it free?

Melanie Avalon: Ads.

Gin Stephens: It's got ads, they're selling you data, you're the product honestly. If you're on Facebook, you're the product and I’ve been okay with that for myself personally for all these years knowing that Facebook was looking at my data, and whatever, showing me ads, I lived with that for the free platform. But for me to have a platform, it is most certainly not free, because I’m not going to be selling your data and showing you ads, and there's a lot of costs involved in it, so it has to be paid. Anyway, I’m sad about any pushback, because I just made this fabulous community and I want everyone to be like, “Oh my God, I love it.” [laughs] So far, positive people are in there. We've got almost 1000 members on day two. It's just so exciting watching people find their community. Also, some of people that I know that had left Facebook for whatever reason, one of my trusted moderators who I love so much, he's a comedian, people may remember him, John McDonald from the Intermittent Fasting Stories Podcast. He left Facebook completely for personal reasons with his family, but he's joined the new platform. It's so good to reconnect with people that I had lost touch with, it feels amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I made a profile. I’m going to come in.

Gin Stephens: Well, people are waiting for you, because we made a Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast group.

Melanie Avalon: Group.

Gin Stephens: Yes. There's a group that you're in.

Melanie Avalon: Are there people in it?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you want to know how many members are in, I can tell you right now.

Melanie Avalon: How many?

Gin Stephens: How many people have joined it? Hold on, I got to pull up the-- We're also going to have an app. The app is not out yet. Right now, I'm on my iPhone looking at it. Let's see Melanie. but right now, it's pretty easy to use in mobile on the iPhone. Melanie Avalon, you've got 63 members.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Okay, now I am very much alert. I mean I was already alert, but let me go see.

Gin Stephens: Let’s see how many are on the Intermittent-- we have an Intermittent Fasting podcast group. Let me search for that one. Anyway, what I’m saying is, I’m certain that we probably have listeners, who are not on Facebook for whatever reason. Not everybody's on Facebook. My sister for example never joined Facebook ever, like ever, in her whole entire life never joined Facebook. From day one, she's like, “For some reason, I don't like that,” so she didn't join. People, that just never joined or didn't want to, we have a place for you now. We have 77 members right now in the Intermittent Fasting Podcast group. We can all get together there, and we also have something called the Podcast Enthusiasts Lounge, where you can go and talk about any podcast you want. If you say, “Oops, fat thumbs, I didn't mean to click that,” we don't even care. If you like things really quickly, go for it, like them as fast as you want.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting. Congratulations.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. Thank you. I didn't sleep last night, I tossed and turned, I thought, “Have I ruined-- Did I mess up? Is this wrong?” Like I said, I’m very much a people pleaser. I want to do things that make people happy. I’m like, “Look what I created for you. Aren't y'all excited?” “No, no, we're not excited. We hate it. Don't create this thing.” Anyway, ah, now I can take a breath, and the people that are there are very happy to be there, and the people who don't want to join, don't have to join. That's the thing,

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, friends, you can all join, we can put links to it in the show notes. That's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: That'd be awesome. dddsocialnetwork.com. It is very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I can't even imagine, the logistics and everything that you have to go through to do that, so it's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Well, setting up those groups was a lot. We thought about what would someone want? What could people want? We actually had a little survey and like, “If you were wanting to join a group, what would you want it to be?” I didn't tell anybody what it was. We got the ideas from members, and then we thought of more just on our own. We've got about 55 moderators/facilitators in there, plus a whole lot of members growing by the minute. I’m just very excited, because I love community. That's really it. The whole reason I started this with my first Facebook group back in 2015, before I'd even written a book, I didn't have a master plan, I’m going to write books, I’m going to have podcasts. No. I started a community, and that was the whole point of it. That's what I’m doing here. Everybody, you're welcome to join my community, I'd love to have you or don't join the community. Intermittent Fasting is still free. If you want to be with us on the platform, join us. I’m not closing down the Facebook groups, though I am going to be very busy with the new platform. The Facebook groups are still going. If you're a member, I’m not going to lock you out. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was going to ask you that if you're keeping--

Gin Stephens: I might not answer all as much, because I’m going to be on this new place, because these people have joined and I can just take a deep breath, I don't have to approve posts, I don't have to approve members. You just join, there you are, you can do what you want, you can come and go. You can join 100 groups if you want to.

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. You don't have to see what you don't want to see. In the advanced group, we've been talking a lot about Zoe, the Zoe app with the personalized nutrition and the gut microbiome testing and the CGM. Some people don't want to see that. They're like, “I’m really frustrated seeing all this talk about Zoe, because I just want to keep it simple.” Well, now you don't have to see it. You don't go to the Zoe group, but we have a Zoe group for people who do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense.

Gin Stephens: It does. I think it's nice. I’m so excited. Scared, yes, and excited. All the feels. I have all the feels. I have cried, I have laughed, I have cheered. I didn't sleep at all last night.

Melanie Avalon: Another reason, you know what happened last night?

Gin Stephens: The time change?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. That's when you realize you really are a night person. When you don't know the time change is going to happen, and then you get really confused, because all of a sudden, I was like, “Wow, that hour went by so fast.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, because you were awake?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I looked at the clock and it was 3:00, I was like, “What happened?” [laughs] Yeah, not a fan.

Gin Stephens: I really tossed and turn, because I started having doubts. Do you ever do that? Do you have doubts? I’m like lying on the bed, we had 400 and something members join yesterday, and I was having these doubts. I was like, “What have I done? What if everyone hates it? What if no one is there?” Anyway, but I woke up today, got refreshed, and I started reading what people had been posting, and seeing how they were joining the groups, and everyone was excited, and then people were coming in that I hadn't seen in a long time. It felt like a big party, that I’m like, “Okay, now I can relax,” except I had this book deadline. Why did I do this at the same time that I have a book deadline? I don't know, I might be crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have no comment. That was some [laughs] interesting choice of timing.

Gin Stephens: Well, all of a sudden, I had that thought in my head that something could happen to my group. I was panicked. I was like, “I got to protect these groups,” so that move to the front burner. Honestly, I really was like, “I've got to do this now,” because it's too late. If I don't, and then something happened, something's probably not going to happen. I know that it probably won't, but it could. Did you know they shut down a bunch of essential oil groups?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Like all in one fell swoop. One of my members was telling me about it. When somebody like, “Nobody's shutting down groups, unless they're bad, dangerous groups.” This girl was like, “Well, I was on a bunch of essential oil groups, and they all got shut down because Facebook decided essential oils were dangerous,” and maybe they are, if you use them incorrectly, but isn't fasting, kind of like that, too? Couldn't fasting be dangerous if you use it incorrectly?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The answer is yes. Google restricts what it shows you now when you search, it has chosen which health people they're going to show you in, which health people they're not going to show you based on certain criteria. I felt like we might have a tenuous existence on a platform, that we couldn't 100% count on tomorrow, I’m going to wake up and my groups are going to be there. I’m 99.99% sure tomorrow I’m going to wake up and my groups will be there. But once I had in my mind that maybe they wouldn't be, I’m sure the essential oil people didn't know they were all going to be gone. It's almost like I wish they had told them, “Hey, we're going to remove your groups and one month, you have one month to figure something else out,” that would have been a good thing. I would have-- if only.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that reminds me of a fun little fact I learned by listening to a podcast.

Gin Stephens: What is that?

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what the difference is between fear and anxiety?

Gin Stephens: Well, no.

Melanie Avalon: As it relates to this conversation?

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to hear though, because I think I have felt fear and anxiety.

Melanie Avalon: Fear is when you are aware of something bad happening, and you have the fear response. Anxiety is not knowing what is going to happen, and having the response, but then it's like, chronic, because--

Gin Stephens: I did have both.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I had fear because I saw people who were not happy with me. They were not happy that I would do this, and that really hurt my feelings, because I’m like, “Look, number one, it came from the place of, I don't want to lose our community, how am I going to keep that from happening, just in case,” but nobody's making anybody join it. I didn't click archive group on Facebook nearby, come over here. Didn't close the group. My wording may be when I announced it, gave people some things to worry about, because I said, “We're not sure the future of how these groups are going to work on Facebook,” because clearly, I’m one person. I can't be here and there and everywhere all over the place. [laughs] Sometimes, I have to eat, and sleep, and take a shower. We're not closing the groups down, but, yeah, I had fear from backlash, like I made a huge mistake. But then, I saw the love. There was so much love. This morning, I woke up to so much love and there's so much positivity surrounding the new community that I can just let the rest go. The fear is gone. I still have some anxiety, but no more fear.

Melanie Avalon: That is fabulous.

Gin Stephens: Yes. Anything new with you? I’m sorry. I just rambled for 18 minutes, but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The only thing is I never travel ever, and I travelled somewhere, and I lost my Oura ring.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. 

Melanie Avalon: I’m so sad. I'm so sad. I did something that I never do, because I don't-- We talked about this. You like jewelry, right?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wear earrings every day, and I have on my wedding ring every day.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I don't ever really wear jewelry. They have an Oura ring that has diamonds in it. I was like, “If I’m going to get one piece of nice jewelry that I wear every day of my life,” so I upgraded, and I got that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, and you lost it.

Melanie Avalon: No, I didn't lose that one. I lost the one I had. I decided to buy a new one, because--

Gin Stephens: I thought you upgraded to the really expensive one and then lost it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, I would be crushed.

Gin Stephens: That's what I thought you did.

Melanie Avalon: They're already pretty expensive normally, but yes. I think listeners think we get all the things for free all the time, but we don't. I have to purchase things. But that's how much I love it. I was like, it's not a question I’m buying a new one right now, and then I realized, I really want the one with the diamonds. I learned don't wear it on your ring finger, because then you look married or it looks like a wedding ring.

Gin Stephens: I probably would agree with that. I mean, unless who cares? Why do you care if people think you're married, right? That could be a plus.

Melanie Avalon: True.

Gin Stephens: Keep in mind. I've been wearing a ring on my wedding ring finger since I was 21. It's been a long time. 30 years I've had this ring on my finger.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It's ironic. I lost it, and I actually interviewed the CEO, again for Part Two episode a few days later. I’m airing it very soon, because I wanted it to be timely. If listeners are interested in Oura ring and learning more, I'll put a link in the show notes to that second interview that I just did with him.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. Today, I want to tell you about Prep Dish’s New Super Fast Menus. These are in addition to their three existing meal plans, keto, paleo, and gluten free. Instead of scrambling and spending every single night prepping meals, do all of your prep at once, and under one hour. You'll get delicious healthy meals on the table, even when you have limited time. If you've been a longtime listener, you know we're huge fans of Prep Dish. No more scrambling at each meal. Instead go into mealtime with a plan, like Melanie would say, “You've got this.”

Prep Dish subscribers now get four menus every week. Gluten free, paleo, low carb keto, and the new Superfast menus. Now, you can prep a whole week's meals in just an hour. You don't have to choose between meal prep and spending precious time with your family. With Prep Dish’s new Super Fast Menus, you get fast food, but it's homemade and healthy. If you've thought about trying Prep Dish but worried you wouldn't have time to do the prep, now is a great time to check out the free trial. The founder, Allison, is offering listeners a free two-week trial, and you can get that by going to prepdish.com/ifpodcast for this amazing deal. Again, that's prepdish.com/ifpodcast, and your first two weeks are absolutely free. Try it out, see what you think about the new Super Fast Menus, and then send us an email. Let us know, how you like it.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything fasting related?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Jamie. The subject is “Whoosh.” Jamie says, “When on average does someone, women get the whoosh effect, losing a bunch of weight at once, two weeks in and I've only lost one pound, where my husband has lost 17 pounds.”

Gin Stephens: All right. That's a great question. First of all, let's talk about what is the whoosh? We've talked about it before, but I want to talk about it again. The whoosh effect is when-- let's think about in our bodies biologically, we lose fat at a pretty slow rate, even if you're doing a complete fast, or you're eating nothing, your body probably is only going to lose about half a pound of fat a day max really for fat burning. Keep that in mind. That's like we're not usually losing about half a pound of fat a day with doing an intermittent fasting lifestyle. Let's say, you get on the scale and you don't see your weight change, you don't see your weight change, you don't see your weight change, you don't see your weight change, and then you get on one day and it's down five pounds. Did you just lose five pounds of fat overnight? No, you did not. You had a whoosh.

You had lost fat slowly, but something was hiding that fat loss. We were pretty sure that your body does something with water during the fat loss process, but not everybody has the same experience. Some people never whoosh. They just have a slow and steady down, down, down over time. They have this nice little graph, they're pretty linearly down. Most people don't, but some people do. Whereas someone who whooshes might look more like a stair step, where you have it's just the same, the same, the same, the same and then down. Then the same, the same, and same and then down, like that. I mean, you might zigzag up and down. I tended to have the pattern where I would go way down, and then I would go back up a little and stay there for a while, then I would go way down, then I would go up a little. Mine’s like the stock market's going down a little bit. Why does this happen?

As I said, we have the theory that it's something to do with water balance, because people will notice, maybe they have to get up in the middle the night to go to the bathroom a lot, and then the next morning they're lower. The water is coming from somewhere. There's one theory that I don't think is true, and that theory is that the body is actually putting water in your fat cells. I haven't been able to find any scientific basis for that, and I've heard scientists who are smarter about the body than me saying, “No, that's not what's happening.” Could they be wrong? Could that be what's happening? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: One of the ones that sounded plausible to me was I think the glycerol. One thing I was reading online, his theory was that fat when we break it down, it breaks it down into glycerol. Is it fatty acids and glycerol? I think so. He says it takes a while for the body to process glycerol and glycerol attracts water.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: It's like you burning the fat, you burn the fatty acid part of the fat-- and I might be wrong with a fatty acid is the other component, I think it is. Then the glycerol takes backlogs and as we process, in the meantime, it's stored with water or attracts water.

Gin Stephens: It's not happening in the fat cell, right?

Melanie Avalon: I’m not sure where the glycerol is?

Gin Stephens: Something's happening with water, we know that. [chuckles] It's somewhere. I also have talked about it before here, I have a hunch. It could be in your lymphatic system, which is the body's sewage system, because as you're clearing out a fat cell, fats not the only stuff that's in there, you've also got a lot of toxins and weird stuff that your body shoved in there. You shove junk under your bed, your body shoves junk into your fat cells when it doesn't know what else to do with it. Toxins do come out, and your body has all that going around in your lymphatic system, and then it can flush it out all at once. You may have puffy fingers, we've all experienced this, puffy ankles, your face might be puffy. That's water retention happening in your tissues, and then whoosh, you wake up and that's gone.

Jamie, not everyone gets a whoosh. Don't expect you're going to get one. But let's address the fact that you're two weeks in and you've only lost one pound. If you think back to the 28-Day FAST Start-- if you read Fast. Feast. Repeat, in the 28-Day FAST Start, I’m very, very emphatic about do not expect any weight loss for the first 28 days, because the first 28 days are the time for your body to adjust to the clean fast, and that's it, your body's not great at tapping into fat stores yet. It may lose a great deal of inflammation, like with your husband with 17 pounds in two weeks. He did not lose 17 pounds of fat in two weeks. I know that we would like to, we don't lose fat that quickly. But even if that's a lot of that's inflammation of water weight, 17 pounds is a lot of mass. Imagine how good it would feel to lose 17 pounds, whatever it is, water weight, inflammation, I know he feels better, but we don't lose fat that quickly.

Just understand that your body is doing what it's doing behind the scenes, and the scale doesn't always reflect that. The scale can go up because of water, it can go down because of water. It can go up if you're gaining fat, but it can go down if you're losing fat, but it can also stay the same while you're losing fat because you're also regaining water. The scale can really just confuse you.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, 100%. Did you read Gary Taubes, The Case for Keto?

Gin Stephens: No, I read Marty Kendall’s critique of it. I really like Marty Kendall. By the way, Marty, we talked about him on the podcast. I think that came out maybe last week, we're recording. It's several weeks ago in podcast world land, but in the real world, it was like last week. Marty listened and he was like, “Oh, thank y’all for talking about me.” Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: On our show?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, when we talked about Marty Kendall and his Optimising Nutrition site, but I read Marty Kendall’s blog post about The Case for Keto.

Melanie Avalon: I finished his book about it. So good. So good. I'm like three fourths of the way through, Gary Taubes.

Gin Stephens: He's coming on your podcast, right?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I’m so excited. I want to air them back-to-back, like air Marty's and Gary's. I don't know what order I put them-- I guess it depends how that conversation goes.

Gin Stephens: I’m going to tell you Marty Kendall is brilliant, and you would think by reading-- he has a book called Keto Myths or something. You would think by reading the title of whatever, I can't remember the name of--

Melanie Avalon: Big Fat Keto Lies.

Gin Stephens: Yes, Big Fat Keto Lies, you would think by reading it, he was anti-keto, and he's not. He is busting some keto myths, like if you're having trouble losing fat, eat a lot more fat. He's saying some things that need to be heard in the keto community. I actually think some people are listening. One of the big guys, I can't remember which one of my moderators showed me one of the big keto people, might have been the Diet Doctor guy, the guy who runs Diet Doctor. He was somebody really big, well known. I just can't remember, my brain is full. Made some post, I don’t know if it was a tweet, I don't know where it was, but she showed me a screenshot of it, where he said that, he had lowered his fat intake or something and increased his protein. He was getting leaner than ever, he’d stopped eating so much fat. I’m like, “That's huge.”

Melanie Avalon: I think it's one of the biggest misconceptions. This is something I’m going to ask Gary, this is the question I want to ask him, because it's probably the biggest takeaway I took from Marty. It’s the biggest paradigm shift I had about insulin after reading Marty's book, and now reading Gary's book. He talks about this completely, but he doesn't draw the same conclusion and it's really haunting me, and it's the fact that this has made me completely rethink insulin, its main purpose is not to store fat. Marty talks about this, which I'd never realized before.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's antilipolytic, which means if you have high insulin, you're going to have a hard time burning fat.

Melanie Avalon: Its main purpose is not to store fat. Its main purpose is to stop fat from being released. It's putting on the brakes--

Gin Stephens: To fat release. It's putting the brakes rather than shoving it in. That's a very good point. We read so many times that people are saying insulin is shoving the fat in or shoving sugar in something.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it could because its main purpose-- and this is something that Marty pointed out that I hadn't really thought of. Fat doesn't elicit at all or barely any of an insulin release, and so they reached the conclusion that because it doesn't release insulin that it's not easily stored as fat. What Marty argues is the reason it doesn't release insulin is, because it doesn't need insulin to be stored as fat. It was just the complete opposite idea of what people are drawing the conclusion from. They're saying, “Oh, unlimited fat because it doesn't require insulin.” Right, it doesn't require insulin because it just gets stored without it, which is huge. Basically, insulin’s purpose is to deal with the toxicity of sugar in the bloodstream. If insulin wasn't there, we would just be burning fat and then we'd have an overload of fuel in our bloodstream, and so when we eat carbs, the body needs to burn it immediately, because too much sugar glycates and is toxic. It needs to shut down all other potential sources of fuel going into the bloodstream, which is from our fat cells and from the storage of carbs. Insulin is just closing the doors.

Gin Stephens: The traffic cop saying no.

Melanie Avalon: I've been thinking about it. It's like if you live in an apartment, I've been thinking about this, and the hallway is your bloodstream and then the doors to all the apartments are your fat cells and normally the doors are open and stuff is going in and out of the rooms, but once carbohydrates enter the bloodstream, insulin is like, “Nope, shut all the doors so that nothing else can come out and we can just deal with this these carbs right now.” What I want to ask Gary, and it helps me articulate this, because I've been thinking about this, but I haven't said it out loud and I want to like--

Gin Stephens: Well, it's also very interesting.

Melanie Avalon: The thing that I want to ask him about is, I mean, he gives that length-- It's basically, if anybody's read any of his books--

Gin Stephens: They're long.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Like, I said, I went on a trip this week, it was a four-hour drive both ways, I listened to the audiobook as much as I could both ways, and I was like, “I filled my Gary Taubes quota for quite a while.”

Gin Stephens: Does he read it himself?

Melanie Avalon: No, he doesn't. He's an investigative journalist. He's not a scientist. He's rather telling the history of all of these things. He makes a very good point that actual scientists-- and now I’m going on tangents, but scientists and nutritionists and doctors don't normally ever study the history of everything in detail, because they don't have time, they don't think it's relevant, but he's saying that, “You can't really understand a subject until you know the history of how it got there,” so, that's what he's doing. In any case, with the insulin, he [unintelligible [00:38:32] idea that it stops fat cells from releasing their fuel, but he'll also say a lot throughout the book that the misconceptions we have and how we've oversimplified calories in, calories out, and we say it's just about calories and really it's about insulin, it's really complicated, it's really nuanced, but I feel the simplistic statement he still continues to make is that insulin leads to fat storage. I'm not articulating this well. The insulin is required for fat storage, like that idea still comes through.

Gin Stephens: Okay, yeah, insulin is antilipolytic. It's anti-fat burning. If you want to tap into your fat stores, you don't want to have high insulin, but that doesn't mean you're storing, you're just not burning.

Melanie Avalon: I need to relisten or reread one part, because there's one part where he specifically says this, but I don't know if he's saying it or he was quoting somebody else, but it was the theory that you can't store fat in the absence of insulin, which just seems to not be true. The takeaway that I’m having right now is-- I don't even know if this is worth pondering, but, because he's trying to deconstruct the calories in, calories out model, I don't know if you are at a genuine calorie deficit even with high insulin. Do you think you can gain weight? Maybe you can't ever burn weight.

Gin Stephens: If nothing is coming in, what are you storing the fat--? What's it being made of? We don't create fat out of thin air. Our bodies don't just create fat out of thin air, It's something comes in, our bodies do something with it and store that as fat. Maybe it was fat already, and we just shoved it away.

Melanie Avalon: What I’m thinking is it seems like insulin could make it impossible to burn fat, so you could not possibly lose weight at a calorie deficit, because of high insulin. But I don't know if you could gain weight at a calorie deficit and high insulin, because if you are literally taking in less energy than you're burning, I don't know how you can have a net gain, even if-- I don't know.

Gin Stephens: You were talking about based on what the metabolism is doing. You couldn't.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, your metabolism could slow down.

Gin Stephens: Right, but if you're still burning more than that slowed metabolic rate, I don't think it's possible. No, I don't think so, that wouldn't make sense. The one thing to keep in mind though, let’s think thing about type 1 diabetics. Their bodies are not making insulin, they were unable to gain weight at all. Low insulin, because they're not making it, unable to gain weight. See, that's one of the big examples Fung uses, I think I used it, you hear it so much. That's why we know that high insulin is related to storing. It's a storage hormone.

Melanie Avalon: To clarify, it definitely encourages the storage of carbs as glycogen.

Gin Stephens: People who had type 1 diabetes before anybody knew what type 1 diabetes was, they would just waste away and die because they didn't have enough insulin. Because they could not, no matter how much they ate, their bodies couldn't store anything away. So many questions, so many complicated things going on. Here's what we need to know. The takeaway is we want to keep our insulin low. That's good, but also fat is not free.

Melanie Avalon: So far what I've read, that’s his thesis.

Gin Stephens: His takeaway is fat is free?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I haven't gotten to that yet, if he does say that. His takeaway is that-- I really like this idea, that everybody has a personal insulin threshold, and that if you're at that insulin threshold or below it, you'll be able to burn fat, but if you're above it, you won't be able to.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I 100% can buy into that theory, because I don't even know if that's like a-- I think that's true. I don't think it's under question. I think that is a fact. It explains-- I’m sure that I had really high insulin for so many years when I was overweight and having trouble gaining weight, and then, Chad, my husband always been slim, I’m sure he's always had low insulin. We had our insulin tested last year. Mine is low now, thanks to fasting, but Chad's was slow. His was lower than mine. I’m like, “Well, no wonder he never gained weight.” His body just makes less insulin. He's not like diabetic, but his body makes less insulin than me. We all have a different threshold with what our body's going to do based on the amount of insulin we have in our fasted insulin level.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he talks about while fasted, if you release insulin, and how one person, they can think about something really delicious and yummy, and they don't get ravenously hungry, it doesn't make them-- they can handle it, they don't feel they have to have it and they're not craving and shaky and another person does have that response. He was saying that it's from this cephalic insulin, basically in our brain, and depending on your basal insulin, that may or may not be enough insulin release to put you over your personal insulin threshold. If you're wavering around your personal insulin threshold or if you're already past it, and then you think of something really delicious, then your brain releases cephalic insulin, which is basically some insulin that's primed and ready just to be released, and that might be an--

Gin Stephens: It's anticipating food’s coming in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Then it releases that, and then that puts your personal insulin threshold high enough that, it just shuts off the fat cells’ ability to release fat, so then you're not giving any fatty acid fuel. It's really interesting. I’m really excited to interview him.

Gin Stephens: One thing that Marty really helped me understand-- also with Zoe, if I put together Marty and Zoe, it really helps me understand a lot about my body. Marty talks about energy toxicity and having too much energy in your blood, whether it's fat or ketones or glucose. You're having a lot of energy in your bloodstream from any source is not good. I never did feel well when I did keto, that summer of 2014. I felt awful the whole time. I also felt very inflamed and puffy, and I just didn't feel good. Zoe taught me, when I did the study with them, that my body doesn't clear fat quickly. They tell you that if your body doesn't clear fat quickly, then too much fat is inflammatory for your body. I’m like, “Well, that makes perfect sense.” It explains why I didn't feel well when I was doing keto, because I was taking in a whole lot of energy, my body didn't clear it very quickly, and so I’m sure I had a ton of fat circulating in my bloodstream that I was taking in, and I wasn't clearing it. Of course, I also didn't release any fat. I didn't lose any weight. All those butter coffees I was chugging, they were keeping my energy levels topped up in my bloodstream, my body had no need to release any fat.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, speaking of, since we recorded last, I did release that episode with Dave Asprey speaking of butter coffee. Listeners, I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. You can check that out. I think my favorite chart-- because Marty has a lot of really great charts in his book, my favorite one is the one that shows “preferred order of burning different fuels.”

Gin Stephens: By the way, I like Marty so very much that even in the new platform, the DDD Social Network, I have a data-driven fasting group over there. For anybody who's following Marty, because a lot of my people have followed Marty, especially since I interviewed somebody on the podcast that talked about him, and then I interviewed Marty. It hasn't come out yet. A lot of people were like, “Hey, I want to learn about that.” Anyway, so data driven-fasting in the DDD Social Network.

Melanie Avalon: This is not the full chart. The full chart is on a different page. The full chart that I saw included alcohol and ketones, I think the order was-- when alcohol and ketones were included, I think it was alcohol and ketones, and then, which is the order of that the body preferentially burns the fuel substrates in our body. I think it was alcohol and ketones, and then glucose in your blood, and then liver and muscle glycogen. I have to ask him about that, because I don't think muscle glycogen would be right there. I think that's incorrect. Then, free fatty acids in your blood and then body fat. So, body fat is basically at the very, very, very last resort.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, our body doesn't want to dig in. I love Jason Fung’s analogy that it's in the freezer in the basement. I’m not going to go down to that basement freezer unless I have to. That's the body to not wanting to-- but it's there, we can get to it if we have to. We just have to give the right environment for the body to tap into your fat.

Melanie Avalon: 100%.

Gin Stephens: Not as easy as it sounds though. [laughs] Ready for the next one?

Melanie Avalon: Sorry for the tangents. Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: No, it was good. I think it's all been very interesting. We have a question from Daniella. The subject is “Collagen/Vitamins.” She says, “When breaking a 19- to 20-hour fast, can I start with my collagen supplement which is powder in water, and gummy vitamins? Please don't judge a grown woman taking gummy vitamins, laugh emoji.” [laughs] I will not. No judging.

Melanie Avalon: Great question, Daniella. The very short and simple answer is yes. The longer answer is, it's a good thing to clarify. I think collagen is something, especially people that are new to fasting, think that it might be something that they can take, while fasting especially, because it's often, “prescribed” to take it the way she's taking it like in water. Collagen is definitely something that’s not fast and friendly. It's a protein, and amino acid, it's going to definitely, definitely break your fast.

Gin Stephens: People like to start in coffee. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I think Dave started that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, did he?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I think way back in the day, because I remember reading him writing about it and he was saying for women in particular it was a good thing.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. It's like, “Why’s everybody wanted to put this in their coffee?”

Melanie Avalon: The good thing about collagen though is, it's very nourishing to your gut. It's actually a really wonderful time to take it right when you're breaking your fast, like Daniella is, and then same, it's fine to take the gummy vitamin. I’m not a huge fan of multivitamins in general. I think, it's better to target specific nutrients. There's so much complexities to vitamins that-- it's hard to find a vitamin that you know is actually doing what you want it to be doing, but that aside, it's fine. Yes, Gin, thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. I was just thinking, I’m really hungry and I was like, “Why am I so hungry?” Then, I realized it's 3 PM but my body-- Wait, we sprung forward. See, I get so confused with the time change.

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: It's only 2 PM to my body. Then why am I so hungry? Okay, sorry. I just got really hungry.

Melanie Avalon: All the emotions, or all of our talk?

Gin Stephens: Maybe, the stress. I also didn't eat a lot yesterday that must be why. My body might need two meals today. I’m just all of a sudden really starving. All that delicious collagen discussion.

Melanie Avalon: Might have been that cephalic insulin response.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, but all of a sudden, I was like, “I need to eat some food right now.” Anyway, I’m going to go eat some eggs on toast, that sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Next question or do you have thoughts about--

Gin Stephens: No, I really think that's it. I don't take collagen. I sometimes wondered if I’m missing out, because so many people take it, but I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: It can do really wonderful things, especially if you are trying to grow your nails and hair, and then heal your gut lining. It can be really great.

Gin Stephens: Well, I’m of the age where collagen production in our skin goes down, and we start to look saggy. I mean, that's just part of the hormonal changes of being in the postmenopausal years. We've all seen those amazing grandmas on the beach rocking their bikinis, but they're all saggy. I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to have to start to get some collagen maybe,” or I'll just embrace the sag, I don't care.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I think the probably the most important thing about collagen is, it's really important the amino acid balance of the meat that we eat. Today, we tend to eat basically muscle meat, so chicken breasts and lean steak, or even fattier steaks, if it's not shank or something like that. Historically, we probably would have been eating more of the whole animal and getting collagen, which is really important for an anti-inflammatory/amino acid ratio, and building your gut like I said.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it may be time, but I will keep it in my window. I don't know why I just can't think of the idea of powder and water. Can you take it in like a pill? That's what I’m going to look for. I don't know. I don't want to dissolve anything in water.

Melanie Avalon: When I took it, of course, I just would eat it with my food, I thought it tasted really good. It’s really important in my opinion to get grass-fed collagen. We can put the link in the show notes to some brands that I like.

Gin Stephens: I don't know why, I have a mental thing against it, like I feel it's going to be gross. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. I love the way it tastes, but I’m weird.

Gin Stephens: I did eat bone marrow, when I was in Charleston.

Melanie Avalon: Was it delicious?

Gin Stephens: Oh, my Lord. It was good. It was at this little restaurant on King Street in Charleston. Man, it was good.

Melanie Avalon: It's one of those things where if you haven't tried it, it might sound gross, or it might sound like, why would you want to eat that?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was scared of it, but everybody raved about it on all the reviews.

Melanie Avalon: It tastes like heaven.

Gin Stephens: It was so good.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, we agree on a food. [laughs] It's hard to describe the taste. It just tastes like-

Gin Stephens: This is some kind of bone marrow pudding. It was like a bread pudding made of bone marrow.

Melanie Avalon: If you go to Whole Foods or something you can get--

Gin Stephens: Can't.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, you can get bones or you can get cuts that have the bone in it, like a shank cut and it'll have that marrow and if you cook it like normal, then you could just eat them marrow plain. It just tastes, oh, my goodness, amazing.

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Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: This comes from Elizabeth, and the subject is “Starting IF After HCG.” Elizabeth says, “I've read both Delay, Don't Deny and Fast. Feast. Repeat. I discovered you while in the midst of a round of HCG. I am sure IF is for me. My HCG ends this week. My question is, do I need to do the follow-up protein diet and reintroduce carbs, before starting IF, or can I go right to IF after my three days after HCG?”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a great question, and I do want to say, I’m really glad, Elizabeth, that you found us even in the middle of HCG, but I do not recommend HCG. I mean, honestly, you didn't know that because you were already doing it before you found us. I’m not saying, you shouldn't have done it, because you can't go back in time. Does that make sense? [laughs] For anyone who has not done HCG, I highly, highly would not recommend that you do it. I certainly tried it back in my diet days. I didn't do the drops, I did the “Go to the doctor, get the prescription, take the injections,” because the theory made so much sense. It was you're going to tap into your fat stores, because you're using this pregnancy hormone, your body thinks you're pregnant, so that it's going to help you tap into your fat stores better and it does something to your hypothalamus. That's the theory. Keep in mind, this was a long time ago that I was doing this. I was desperate to lose the weight. I was obese, so I get it.

Everyone who has tried these things like HCG, I tried them. I've done them. I lost a lot of weight doing it. Then, that was when I really started the diet yo-yo after that. The diet pills really got me, and I got those from my doctor too. The doctor prescribed diet pills, regained the weight, then I did HCG, got that from a doctor, lost a lot of weight, regained the weight, but then I was really like obese and struggling. It's not supposed to damage your metabolism, but I don't agree with that. I don't think that's true. I think that theory, just on my own personal response, I don't think that it's true. I think it tanked my metabolism, because suddenly, I gained way past any setpoint I'd ever had before, and I was over 200 pounds for the first time ever. Before all the crazy diets, I was hanging out around 160s as my upper limit. Then, I did all these crazy diets with the diet pills and the HCG, and then all of a sudden, my setpoint is now 200 or 180, in that range.

It definitely harmed my body long term. Thank goodness, I think intermittent fasting helped me reverse it. If it were me, Elizabeth, if I were finishing HCG right now today, and discovered intermittent fasting in the middle of it, I think I would go straight into the eating window approach, because you've already been eating practically nothing. Gosh, actually see, I don't know, because I’m thinking maybe the alternate-day fasting approach would be a good one for her, because her metabolism is probably slow. So you want to boost it again. I would probably, I don't know, you've already been eating a very tiny amount. Those are down days. I might would do alternate daily fasting. Down day, up day, down day, up day. As far as are you're going to reintroduce carbs, I don't know. The original doctor that created this protocol, Dr. Simeons, did have you restrict carbs, but I don't know that was like the magic. I think that just kept you from “regaining” that water weight because you lose a lot of water when you're doing a really restrictive diet like HCG. Then carbs, you eat carbs, and it causes your body to retain water. It's like rapid weight gain, but really, it's like a lot of water. Restricting the carbs as you ease back into eating would keep that from happening, which is what he wanted you to do.

Then, he wanted you to crash diet if your weight went up, like eat a tomato or something or have a tomato and steak day or some crazy nonsense like that. If your weight went up, you're supposed to have a steak day. Eat tomatoes all day and need a big steak or fast all day and then eat a steak, I can't even remember.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it's a one meal a day steak.

Gin Stephens: With just a steak.

Melanie Avalon: It's like carnivore one meal a day.

Gin Stephens: Maybe, that could be it. I think that actually is, but that's the super-duper crash diet. I am not judging anybody who does it, because I did it. I’m just going back and giving my back in the past self, giving her a hug.

Melanie Avalon: The interesting thing about HCGs, the macros of it are very similar to protein-sparing modified fast, which Gary actually talks about in his book about basically being the only “crash diet” that actually pretty much consistently always works because I think HCG is, isn't it like 500 calories of basically protein?

Gin Stephens: A day, yep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If it were me, I would probably just jump into IF, but maybe start with a longer eating window and making sure that you're eating a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, maybe so, because I was thinking about that too. I almost went that direction. It's hard to know either way, coming from the perspective of your metabolism slowed after all that crash dieting.

Melanie Avalon: I just feel I need to be saying this more when we're getting questions especially from people who are hungry or trying to boost their metabolism, focusing on protein I think is so, so important. That's another one of the Big Fat Keto Lies that Marty talks about, is people think fat is satiating, protein is the macronutrient that is most satiating. I think focusing on protein can be really, really important for boosting metabolism and for weight loss, because it's the best of both worlds in that regard, and that it fills you up the most of any food, but it's not very likely to be stored as fat like we don't preferentially store protein as fat. Oh, actually, I don't know if it was in Marty's book. I think it was Marty's book. He mentioned a study about whey, and even in a study where they added in excess calories through processed whey protein, excess calories, the participants did not gain weight from it which I actually would have thought maybe they would when it's fat processed.

Gin Stephens: Because it was whey.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it's whey, which is very--

Gin Stephens: Dairy droved.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's growth promoting. Protein is a really good macronutrient to focus on if you're trying to lose weight, trying to be full. It's probably why I’ve been eating such a high-- I eat such a high protein diet for so long. But yeah, I will probably just jump into IF with a longer eating window. Especially if you're worried about gaining back a lot of weight after that, that's another reason I would really focus on protein. So, I would encourage you, Elizabeth, not to go crazy, and if you're eating tons of carbs and tons of fat, it's very likely that you might gain back a large part of-- not just water, you might gain back in fat a large part of what you lost. If you want to maintain whatever you did lose, I would really focus on protein and then looking at your macros.

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't just reintroduce all the things. That's a tricky one.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I’m glad that you found us, Elizabeth, that makes me really-- or Beth. She goes by Beth. I’m glad you found us, Beth, and don't be scared if your weight goes back up a little bit, don't blame the intermittent fasting. Blame the HCG and know that it's going to go back up a little bit, and then it might take a little while longer for you to actually start burning fat well and start really losing more weight, just because your body's got to learn to trust you again. You definitely don't want to do intermittent fasting in a way that's also overly restrictive. That won't be helpful. Can I get something off my chest real quick?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: I’m so frustrated by the whole women shouldn't do intermittent fasting at certain times of the month or we’re too fragile a flower to do intermittent fasting. That is really becoming more and more out there as just common knowledge, but I don't think it's true. I think women should not be overly restrictive with their diet. The fact that all of a sudden, we're like, “Well that means intermittent fasting is out,” intermittent fasting that is overly restrictive is the problem, but that doesn't mean no woman should ever do intermittent fasting during our cycles. I don't know. Maybe they haven't eaten with me. I eat a lot of food. [laughs] Nobody's telling those women not to do a 1200 calorie a day diet. That's overly restrictive, a traditional diet.

Melanie Avalon: I agree as well. I was also just thinking one of the other things people say. People say it's too hard for women especially to eat enough protein. I was just thinking about. It's probably really hard if you're not focusing on protein and so you're eating a lot of fat with it, or a lot of-- carbs might make it easier to a lot protein, but I think people focus so much on fat a lot of the times that that would make it harder to eat a lot of protein.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just over-restriction is really hard on a woman's body. Over-restriction is hard on our body. But to then say, “Well, then women shouldn't fast certain times of the month,” I don't buy that argument. Even though some really well-known voices that I respect are starting to say that more it's common knowledge, I disagree. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I don't feel good when I’m not doing my fasting. This is me personally. I don't feel it helps my hormones. I feel much better hormonally during my fasting window, like hands down. But everybody's individual, that said, I do think there might be some women who do better with--

Gin Stephens: Yep. Particularly if they struggle with eating sufficiently, because they've trained themselves to be a dieter for example, and they're a restrained eater. If someone eats like a bird, tiny little amounts of it, maybe they just naturally can't eat a lot at one time. Okay, then they might need a longer window. It's not the fasting that's the problem, it's the fact that you can't eat enough food within your eating window, like that person shouldn't then try to do one meal a day in a one-hour window. I wouldn't recommend that. If you're eating this tiny little amount of food, that's not good for you, it's over-restriction. We don't want to over-restrict our bodies, women.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: But that doesn't mean that fasting is over-restriction. That's the part that I keep getting frustrated about. Assuming that fasting means over-restricting, and it does not to me.

Melanie Avalon: They're not synonyms.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: They are often posited as such.

Gin Stephens: Well, they are. There's this whole complicated graphic that people are now sharing that came from somewhere, and I know where it came from, not going to say, but it's like, “Here's how you fast every week of your cycle.” I’m like, “No, you might have a hungrier day. Listen to your body, do it.”

Melanie Avalon: That sounds really complicated.

Gin Stephens: It does. I don't know that there's solid science of why you would do that. Other than, yeah, your body might need more nutrients at a certain time of your cycle. My body was always good at telling me that, I can remember-- back earlier and before I got on this side of menopause, I remember, when I was doing intermittent fasting and losing weight, there'd be a day and I'd be like, “Oh my God, I’m so hungry today. What's wrong? I just ate and ate and ate and ate and ate and why am I so hungry and then?” Then, boom, the next day, I would have the reason why I would know. Every time it was a mystery. [laughs] Every month, I was surprised that I was so hungry. My body really communicated that well to me and I listened. I didn't try to diet through it. I didn't punish myself.

Melanie Avalon: You still ate what you wanted.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I ate more. My body pretty much commanded me to. I've always had a hard time-- Even though I did those crazy restrictive diets, they weren't easy for me. When I’m hungry, I want to eat. My body's like, “Eat.” I’m like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: Me too. [laughs] That's why we're both here.

Gin Stephens: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Gin can eat, y'all.

Melanie Avalon: So can Melanie, so much. I've already said this. It's a dead horse, but the amount of protein I eat every day is, I mean, it's pounds.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny, not me. Nope, not pounds of protein.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. [laughs] Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode207. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. My Instagram is-- Gin, it's going really well-

Gin Stephens: Oh, good.

Melanie Avalon: -recently. Follow us. How's your Instagram?

Gin Stephens: I've decided I’m just going to live my life on Instagram. I’m just going to be Gin Stephens’ person on Instagram. If you want to come to Instagram and see what Gin Stephens’ person is doing, I don't need to be Gin Stephens. Argh. [laughs] I've just feeling very much like I just want to get back to basics. Maybe that's why I’m doing this new web platform. Just because I’m like-- I don't want to be, “Here's my dinner. Woo.” Maybe, “Here I am, everybody, come sit by me.”

Melanie Avalon: I think I really like Instagram-- well, besides the fact that selfies really stress me out, I like it, because I really like creating-- my background is film and theater, so I love creating visual content. It's combines my love for visual content with words because you-- I never thought about this until right now. You write as well, so I think that's me probably why I really like it. It's like creating little artwork.

Gin Stephens: Not me. I’m like, “Here's my backyard remodel.” Did you see that picture?

Melanie Avalon: I did. No, okay, I saw it really briefly, and I just saw wreckage and I was like, “Oh my gosh, was there is--" no, I was like, “Was there a storm in Augusta, is her house gone?”

Gin Stephens: Can I just tell you how crazy I am right now? I’m going through so many things, the book, and the website launch, and also our backyard remodel that we tried to start in the fall, but we're demoing everything. Well, it's halfway done, but the wood was rotten on the decks that were on the back, plus there was an arbor, all rotten, all needed to go. We knew it needed to be replaced when we bought the house. We got a great deal on this house, it needed some work. The pool though, huge pool from the 80s, it's full of cracks, a tree fell in it in 2014. They had an ice storm. Well, we had ice storm, and it cracked the pool, and so we were going to have to put all this money into fixing it. They're going to dig it all up. All that concrete is cracked, it has to go. The whole surround. So, I have a bobcat, one of those digger things, is in my front yard right now and they have to get it into the backyard. They're going to take down a fence. I think they start doing that tomorrow. They're going to start digging up all that-- it’s a 10-foot-deep pool.

Melanie Avalon: That's intense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, fixing it was going to cost more than just digging it up. That sounds crazy, but we're starting over, we're going to put in a screened porch, because I really missed having the screen porch. We're putting in a small pool, like a dunk pool.

Melanie Avalon: You have a real bobcat in the picture. Does Ellie not have a tail?

Gin Stephens: That's Ellie. You remember she got hit by the car, and then her tail had to be amputated. She's just my little cutie, but, yeah, in that picture, she's got a face on it, doesn’t she? She's got some attitude. I love that cat.

Melanie Avalon: It's really funny. I’m looking at it right now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, anyway, that's what I’m going to put on Instagram. I’m not going to try to influence you at all. I am not an influencer. I’m an anti-influencer.

Melanie Avalon: I’m an anti-influencer, who became an influencer. I give away a lot of free stuff.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I’m not anti-influencers. Let me just say that. I am an anti-influencer, but I’m not anti-influencers.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly.

Gin Stephens: I’m just the anti-influencer. I’m not giving you anything. I’m not giving anything away.

Melanie Avalon: I give away a lot of stuff, listeners, so follow me. I usually give away every week something.

Gin Stephens: Well, follow me to see a very interesting backyard remodel.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait though, because I really want to be able to enjoy the yard, and I like to go outside and sit on a screened porch. The mosquitoes here are tragic.

Melanie Avalon: I feel remodeling for you is therapeutic or something. You're always remodeling something.

Gin Stephens: Well, we bought this house that was built in the 80s, and needed to be-- it’s built in 1979, I said that wrong. It was built in 1979. The people who bought it from moved in 1984. The pool was built in the 80s. It just needed some work. When you have a house, there's always something that has to be done.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: This one needed some stuff. Bathroom, that's all finally done, thank you. The backyard. But it's very stressful.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to finally have a house, sometime.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait for it to be done. I told Chad, because I’m so busy. He likes to spend 100 years looking at stuff. “Look, you just pick two things and say which one, this one or that and I'll tell you.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so he picks. Okay. Yeah, that's good plan.

Gin Stephens: Well, in this case, I like to pick stuff. I don't have time right now to go to Lowe's, and then Home Depot, and then the other place, and then all the places, then back to Lowe's, because that's the way Chad shops. Sorry. [laughs] I’m like, “Hmm, that one.”

Melanie Avalon: He can do that, and pick two and then you pick one?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That works well.

Gin Stephens: I’m very decisive.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: The one I'd say that one too is always the one we end up going with. Even if we've been to 100 places, we always get back to the one that I liked immediately. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, can I share really quick one last thing that relates?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It goes with being decisive. Listeners, fun fact, if you're trying to throw away things, like clean out your apartment, throw away clothes, but you want to hold on to it for whatever reason, just do it when you're completely sleep deprived. It's like when I got back from the trip, and I was completely sleep deprived, I was like must throw away everything. I throw away so much stuff. That's the key.

Gin Stephens: It feels so good, doesn't it?

Melanie Avalon: That's the key. Next time, you're sleep deprived, which is not a good thing, turn it into a good thing. Use the decision fatigue and the exhaustion to throw away all these things that you were having trouble letting go of, like old clothes and stuff, shoes.

Gin Stephens: Very nice. I need to do that. I've got clothes that are no longer in style. Isn't that amazing? I've been the same weight for so long, that my clothes have gone out of style, that I bought.

Melanie Avalon: I think, I must not buy many clothes. I hold on to my outfits for a long time.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because you always wear the same thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, pretty much during the day.

Gin Stephens: That's funny. Oh, by the way, I didn't tell you this. Today is the day, the day that we're recording this, today is the day that six years ago today I hit my initial goal weight.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Today is the day. March 14th, 2015. I was 75 pounds down.

Melanie Avalon: Happy six-year anniversary.

Gin Stephens: Thank you. I've maintained for six years. Oh, also one more funny story. My Shapa was acting super wacky. I was like my age was going up, I was gray, gray, gray, gray, gray. I’m like, “That's not right.” It did that for three weeks. I changed the batteries. [laughs] It needed the batteries to be changed. People, if your Shapa is acting wacky, change the batteries. Got on it. I was 24 again instead of-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon:  Oh, wow. That's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: It was interesting. No scales, when they lose-- It was also taking it a long time to take a reading. I would stand on it, and it took forever.

Melanie Avalon: I still want to reach out to the founder. Gin, I am so overwhelmed with guests. I have interviews scheduled for episodes airing through November. They're all people I have to read like-- [laughs] people keep coming to me and being like, “Oh, you should have this person on your show.” I’m like, “Nope, [laughs] the door is closed.” Unless you’re a New York Times bestseller, that'll get you in the door.

Gin Stephens: That's nice to be able to have options that people want to come on your show. I know that you're proud of that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, oh, sorry, yeah, that came off as ungrateful. I’m really grateful for it.

Gin Stephens: It did not come off as ungrateful.

Melanie Avalon: I’m just really overwhelmed when people come to, especially because sometimes, like some well-known people in the biohacking sphere will try to recommend their friends and stuff and, I'm like, “I could circle back in a few months.”

Gin Stephens: That does make it hard. Same with me, I've got so many people that want to come on Intermittent Fasting Stories that I keep pushing them back, and I feel bad because I know they have a good story. I would like to tell it, but there's one a week.

Melanie Avalon: It's hard to know too-- I don't want the content to be too old. It's something I’m trying to figure out right now. At what point is that way too far in advance? Typically, it's books, so the content is pretty relevant.

Gin Stephens: But people want to come on right when it's launched. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's hard to know.

Gin Stephens: All right, we’ll come to dddsocialnetwork.com and visit the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast group.

Melanie Avalon: Another social group.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you're going to love it though.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I will.

Gin Stephens: Everybody there came there specifically because they like the community. That is what is so exciting. It's not like Facebook where people are just there already, and they're like, “Well, I'll come over here if I want to, but I might not like you, and I’m going to tell you.” [laughs] Everybody who's on the DDD Social Network came there on purpose. It is just so exciting to be there with them. I love them all so much. I love the people on Facebook too. Facebook people, do not feel unloved, but sometimes, somebody will wander in that might not be as good of a fit. Anyway, that's all I’m going to say.

Melanie Avalon: I’m really shocked-- this is the last thing, I know we've said that like a million times. I recently started my Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare Facebook group. I’m really shocked. My IF Biohackers Facebook group, which is my main hub, I don't ever get spammers in that group ever, like ever. I don't get people trying to join who are spammers. I don't get spam posts.

Gin Stephens: We get them in the Life Lessons. We do. They try to join.

Melanie Avalon: My Clean Beauty one, like half of the requests are spam requests. I don't know if it has something to do with the keywords like people are searching-- This group has around almost 900 members. Yeah, everyday, half of the requests are spam.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and it's really hard. I feel like people coming to the DDD Social Network and paying a membership fee are not going to be spammers.

Melanie Avalon: Right, that's going to filter that out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so I’m not going to have to worry about that. People would join the regular group before we changed the way it posts now. People would join it, and then they would get a post approved, through post approval. Then they would edit their post to some crazy spam posts, even post approval didn't fix it. It'll be some crazy spam post. They had this order, they would do it and it'd be called it getting pancaked, but we couldn't talk about it because we didn't want to teach people you could edit your posts. Someone would come in and they'd post something. They started copying and pasting old posts. There was one of our Hashimoto’s that they would use. Then we started to recognize them, we’d just block them straight from there, but they would copy this Hashimoto’s post, and then they would change it to, “Today, I’m five years sober.” Which, do you know why they would do that?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Because that drives a lot of engagement quickly, because everybody's like, “Oh, my God, congratulations. Thank you for sharing that. I support you.” Then they would have a million. Then they would change it to, “The admins of this group are about to start dropping inactive members, please comment me if you want to stay.” Then people would go, “Me, me, me.” I mean, you could just see. Then they would change it to, “These are the best pancakes I've ever had.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's why you called it pancake.

Gin Stephens: Pancaking. Yes. It was always this pancake, and I’m like, “I don't know what happens if you click that pancake link,” but something bad is going to happen if you click it, but we called it getting pancaked, and somebody would post on there, like, “I think we're about to get pancaked,” and we'd be like, “Yeah, that looks like one,” and then we would keep our eye on it, and then sure enough, then we would block them. Now, Facebook has changed it. If you have post approval turned on, it sends edits back through the approval process. So, hallelujah. But now, they're just putting the spam in the comments.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I’m really grateful. Hopefully it won't change. My main hub is much smaller than yours. I think it's almost 8000 or 9000, but I don't know, we don't really get spam.

Gin Stephens: We don't get a lot of spam in the advanced group.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, spammers are not searching out Biohacking groups compared to-- I don't know, it's weird. Well, okay. This has been absolutely wonderful.

Gin Stephens: It's been a lot of fun. I needed it. Lord, I have so much to do. I have so much to do, Melanie. Anyway, send me positive productive thoughts.

Melanie Avalon: Sending you sane, productive, wonderful vibes. Take some Feals CBD.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Nov 15

Episode 187: Blood Sugar Variation, Flexibility, Yen Yoga, Collagen, Elastin, Losing Weight A Second Time, Berberine, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 187 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time, New Members Get 2 New York Strips And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks When They Place Their First Order At Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast

3:25 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At Melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #60 - Wim Hof

INSIDE TRACKER: Go To Melanieavalon.com/Getinsidetracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

16:00 - Listener Feedback: Miranda - Answer to Paige’s Flexibility Question Ep. 173

25:00 - Listener Q&A: Katie - Second Try Has Been BRUTAL

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The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #65 - Mira And Jayson Calton

46:10 - Listener Q&A: Amanda - Berberine

Keto Before 6®

51:10 - BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 187 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, Black Friday is coming up and I'm about to tell you how you can get early access to ButcherBox’s free steak sampler. We're talking two free grass-fed New York strips and four grass-fed top sirloins. Do not miss this. We are huge fans around here of ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust shipped straight to your door. I hardcore research their practices, you guys know I do my research, and what they're doing is incredible. Their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished. Their chicken is free range and organic. Their pork is heritage breed. And super importantly, they are all about caring for the lives of both their animals and the livelihoods of their farmers, treating our planet with respect and allowing us to enjoy better meals together.

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There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well!

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my beauty counter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 187 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am good. Can I tell you that my bathroom is almost done?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like finally?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we've had the plumbing, the lighting was done yesterday. And so, all we need now is the towel bars-- oh, and the medicine cabinet and the mirror have to be hung, then we will be finished. But you could actually go in there and do everything a bathroom is supposed to do. Just you can't look in the mirror or hang anything up.

Melanie Avalon: That is a plus.

Gin Stephens: I know, it is very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: And then, is it just the yard that you're working on?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we're going to be working on a backyard remodel. That's going to be huge. Huh!

Melanie Avalon: To your tropical oasis with Paris?

Gin Stephens: Will see. Yeah, I'm excited. I can't wait. I miss my screened porch. I looked at my Facebook memories today, and one year ago today I was sitting on the floor in my old house with workmen. We were getting ready. It was under contract and we were getting ready to close at the end of the month. So, gosh, so many memories from that. But I haven't had a screened porch since we left that house.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't realize you had a screened porch.

Gin Stephens: At my other house? Oh yeah, I loved it. I sat out there all the time.

Melanie Avalon: I would not sit up there all the time. Actually, I would during the winter.

Gin Stephens: Mainly, I'm out there in the summer, in the spring, in the fall. When it's cold, no. But I like it the rest of the time.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of the cold, guess what showed up at my door yesterday and made my life?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know, unless it was a chest freezer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that would really make my life. You know I had Wim Hof on the show recently? It was a celebratory Wim Hof giftbox with the official-- Oh, it's so exciting. I had a galley of the book. So, I had a pre-release, not finalized version. So, it was like the hardcover actual version, like a Wim Hof towel that says, “Breathe mother F,” because he always says that, that's his phrase. And then, an ice cube tray and a motivational magnet. Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: That's so fun!

Melanie Avalon: My day was made. So, I have a CGM update.

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay, how's that going?

Melanie Avalon: It's going well. I don't know-- today might be the last day. I'm actually interviewing Levels tomorrow. And then, I'm interviewing Nutrisense in a month, but I had a huge epiphany. So, we were talking just a second ago, you and I. I recently did the-- so InsideTracker, which is a David Sinclair affiliated company. They do a lot of genetic testing and blood testing and things like that. And they have a new InnerAge thing. They test, I don't know, it's like 12 key biomarkers to determine your “biological” or your real age. The good thing was that said I was younger than I am. So, I was like, “Okay, that's a plus.” But what was really interesting was I measured my blood sugar on it, and I guess just because of the timing of it-- and it matched my CGM for the time that I got it, but the timing of it, my blood sugar was 79, or something, which is my good number. Historically, I always feel really good in the high 70s.

But looking at my CGM over the past few weeks-- we talked about this last show, it fluctuates so much, even during the fast. If I hadn't been doing the CGM and I just done that one blood test, I would have been like, “Oh, I'm sure my blood sugar is always in the 70s then.” It made me realize getting a blood test and checking your blood sugar, you have no idea. You've no idea what that even means.

Gin Stephens: You don't know where you are on the curve exactly. It could be on the way up, on the way down. That could be your peak, that could be your valley. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It is. I'm just looking back at all the blood tests I've done historically and how I would so judge myself almost based on what the blood sugar was. Now, I've realized literally, depending on which minute I went in, it could have been--

Gin Stephens: I mean, 10 points higher. Yeah, it's crazy. That was the most eye-opening thing for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And then, the other thing was, how high would your blood sugar go after meals? After your curvy meals?

Gin Stephens: Gosh, I'm trying to remember. It's been over a month. I don't know, like 130 normally? That’s how it would go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I've been in 120s.

Gin Stephens: 120s, 130. One time, it went up a little higher than that, but I don't think it ever went out of the 130s. I don't know. I don't know where that data. I had it somewhere downloaded, but--

Melanie Avalon: Was it just through the FreeStyle Libre app or was it--?

Gin Stephens: It was, but then I found a website that you could sync it with. Let me see, I might have some notes.

Melanie Avalon: While you're looking, the interesting thing that I realized was eating lower carb meals or even fruit meals, my blood sugar, it would spike, but it would go like 110, highest like 120 and then pretty quickly go down, and then it would go down too far. But last night, I ate way more carbs than normal and, oh my goodness, it went up to like 200 something.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh. Okay, see, I found some of my data. This is just some very early data that I-- I went up to 135 one time. But normally, like after dinner, I would go up like 112. After pasta, I went up to 121.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because the highest I would really ever go when eating my normal foods was 120. But it would normally go to 110-ish, between 110 and 120.

Gin Stephens: Here's some data that I had. I had two pieces of toast and two eggs on top, and my blood glucose went up to 109 after two pieces of toast with eggs.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so last night, I ate some-- it's like Rice Krispies but there's no additives or anything like that. And it shot up to 200.

Gin Stephens: Wow, yeah, I never saw anything above-- Really, maybe 140 at one time. I never saw anything above, and I was like, “Oh my God, what's happened?”

Melanie Avalon: 217!

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I wish I had all that data. Even after the muffins, it didn't go up all that much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it never really dropped hypoglycemic, did you, after meals?

Gin Stephens: No, not after meals. In the middle of the night, it got down in the tiny little red. I can't remember what the boundary was. Was it, like 69 was the boundary? It turns red. I can't remember. But I got down there just a couple times. But mostly it was not there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine would always draw pretty well, although I was talking with Levels about it and they said a few things. And I'm excited because I'm interviewing them tomorrow, so I have so many questions for them. But they said that, A, if you sleep on the sensor, that can cut off circulation, like if it's on your arm, so that can lead to false like--

Gin Stephens: The middle of the night readings can be weird.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it could be that. And then, he also said that they never really test like historically people's blood sugar levels all night. So, we don't have a lot of data in general about what's normal for--

Gin Stephens: That's a good point.

Melanie Avalon: --nighttime, so yeah. Oh, and for listeners. A CGM is a continuous glucose monitor. I've just assumed that everybody knows what you're talking about. But it's basically a little thing that you put on your skin and it measures your-- What is it, interstitial fluid? To give you a sense of your blood sugar levels throughout the day constantly.

Gin Stephens: And it really is fascinating data and I really hope that it becomes more mainstream for people to use as a preventative health measure. It's not a trinket, it's not a fun toy. It's not something like, “Oh, look at this!” It's something that is powerful data. Yes, it's fun to see, it's interesting to see, but it's powerful data about how your body responds to these foods. And so, it can really make a difference when you choose. You're probably not going to choose that Rice Krispy thing again, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no.

Gin Stephens: For me, though, when my blood glucose went up to 135, that was after coconut water, which really surprised me. I mean, I love coconut water.

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting. It did make me feel better though about the fruit because I was stressing about the fruit. But now it's like, “Oh, well, compared to that.” So, maybe it was a good thing to experience.

Gin Stephens: I made sure to eat the way I normally eat when I was using it. I didn't test things in isolation. When I had the toast with eggs, that's how I would normally have it because I wanted to get a picture of how it looked with my normal day. My normal day really made me happy. My normal day, my blood glucose is within a tight little range and it goes up, but then it goes down. And it's a nice little gentle-- It looked good. It made me feel really good about it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm still a little bit sad because it seems that if I do my keto-ish like approach, it's pretty good, and the Levels app gives me a good metabolic score and it stays within the target range, but I would still in general like it like a little bit lower and then I would also like to be eating more fruit, but goals. The good thing is because it comes in two weeks cycles, the sensors, and I have Levels send me too. So, I have another one I can use. I have to try out Nutrisense and then Levels said they're going to start trialing other brand. So, I think I'll probably trial that as well. So, I think I have like-- what is that? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that's like 6 more weeks' worth of sensors that I can potentially play with. And then, I'm going to be like never again, not really.

Gin Stephens: It's just so interesting. I really think that people who are concerned about long-term health, before you start having prediabetes, that's when you would know, you could really dial in what works for you and then prevent. If health insurance companies were smart, they would let everybody have a trial of these to see what foods-- anyone who's interested. Maybe not everybody, not everybody cares. But for anyone who did, it shouldn't be so hard to get them. They should pay you to do them. It should be like, “We'll give you $250 if you wear this for two weeks and learn from your data.” I mean that would be a wellness strategy for these insurance companies and it would prevent them from paying out thousands of dollars later for sickness. Anyway, I'm not in charge of that. Nobody has to be!

Melanie Avalon: So, listeners, stay tuned, though, because I will be having two interviews with both companies, and I'll probably have discounts or some sort of offer. So, exciting! Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have some listener feedback, which is answer to "Paige’s Flexibility Question From 173," and it's from Miranda. She says, “Hello, Gin and Melanie. I've been listening to your podcast for two years now and I love all the great information you have to offer and your willingness to entertain so many questions from your listeners. I'm happy to be part of such a valued community. I'm just getting caught up on some older podcasts and have some answers for a question you had from Paige from Australia in episode 173 - does IF increase your flexibility? You weren't able to fully answer this, and I am happy to fill in some blanks for you.

I have been practicing yin yoga for over 10 years and teaching it for over six years. Yin yoga is a style of yoga that focuses on purposefully stressing our connective tissue to increase elasticity and ease of movement. It is thought to have been discovered by monks thousands of years ago to help them sit more comfortably during hours of meditation. Connective tissues are the plastic-like tissues in the body, the fascia, ligaments, tendons, etc., that wrap around and connect muscles and bones. And now, they're discovering it runs like a web through muscle and bone. With stress, injury, dehydration, and life, the connective tissue gets tangled, sticky, and begins to shrink wrap our bodies restricting movement. In order to "untangle" and rehydrate that connective tissue, it needs to be purposely stressed. This is what we do in yin yoga. Stressing muscle is done through resistance movement, with or without weight. We're all very familiar with this.

Stressing connective tissue requires consistent tension and/or compression. Usually, both are happening concurrently with minimal muscular effort for a period of time, usually four to six minutes. It takes an average of two to three minutes for the muscles in the area to let go so that the stress can be focused on the connective tissue. During this time, the area being stressed sends a message out, “here's where the work needs to be done.” And the fibroblasts know where to go to start untangling those bunched and knotted-up collagen and elastin fibers and start laying them out in nice, neat, stretchy layers.” And then she adds a little note, this is a very simplified explanation. “This works similarly to acupuncture, but on a wider scale and not literally a pinpoint. Think of a big knotted-up ball of yarn. You have both loose ends in hand, but when you pull, they don't go far. If you take the time, you can untangle the ball of yarn and then layer it back and forth into a nice, neat skein. Now, when you pull on the loose ends, you can pull for miles.

The answer to Paige’s question is twofold. First, Melanie, you are on the right track looking for studies about the effects on cartilage. And Gin, you were partway there when talking about being as flexible at 50 as you were when you were a teen dancer. I believe a lot of that can be attributed to IF and increased autophagy. When our bodies have the time, as they do with IF, they get to go around and clean up the broken-down proteins, i.e., collagen and elastin, which tends to get deprioritized as we age. So, you have less tangled messes that can get taken care of without a practice like yin yoga or acupuncture, although either or both would still be very beneficial.

The second part of the answer, and what I think Paige is experiencing as she was pretty recent in her IF journey, is looking at our flexibility and asking, ‘What's stopping us?’ That answer is either tension or compression or a combination. It's different for all of us in different positions or poses. An easy way to experience this is to stand up, bend over, and try to touch your toes. Can you do it? If not, what's stopping you? Is it the tight sensation you feel in your lower back or in your hamstrings or calves? That's tension. That can be worked through over time with consistent practice. Are you able to touch your toes? Yes. Can you fold completely in half with your head between your knees, your knees on your ears? Why not, what's stopping you? Now, you're likely experiencing compression.

Compression comes in three major forms. Soft, medium, and hard. Soft compression is how it sounds, soft tissue meeting soft tissues, big fat. Using the same example as above, envision an obese person doing the same exercise. Let's pretend they don't have too much tension stopping them from doing that forward fold. They will likely be stopped by the compression of their belly pressing against their thighs. They may still be able to touch their toes or the floor because that can somewhat displace and make space for that to happen. With IF, as we lose this thigh and belly fat, we can increase flexibility. This position in particular will feel a little more comfortable, at least from the compression side of things. And we may start to meet our tension threshold in our lower back and our hamstrings now that we have more flexibility/range of motion. This sensation will likely change as our bodies change.”

Melanie Avalon: Can I interject really quick? So, is she saying that literally losing the weight, it's like a physical barrier that's creating?

Gin Stephens: Yes. When I was obese, I couldn't reach down and paint my toenails. My belly got in the way. 100%.

Melanie Avalon: That is so interesting. I mean, it makes complete sense. I just never really thought about it that way.

Gin Stephens: Yep, I've been there. It's true. I had to sit differently. I couldn't sit cross-legged. And there are a lot of ways I couldn't move. I mean shaving your legs, things like that just were so different to do. It's hard to even remember.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Putting on shoes, all those things. But, yeah, and now I appreciate being able to just do whatever, use my body however I want to. All right, back to her comments. “Medium compression is interesting and what we often experience in our joints. This is a bone-flesh-bone sandwich. Try sitting on the floor cross-legged style. Do you feel a pinching in your leg creases? This is medium compression. It often feels pinchy. If that position feels completely comfortable to you, great.” It does, by the way, I can sit like that. Can you sit cross-legged comfortably, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Pretty sure.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I do all the time. “But I'm sure you've experienced the same sensation in other positions at some point in time. Medium compression often doesn't change in people unless they have “fat show” or “deposits” around the tissues of the joints, most likely in someone more obese. Again, as those fat stores are being used for energy and decreasing in size, there is more space for movement, which equals more flexibility. IF for the win again.

And finally, hard compression. This is bone-to-bone compression. Think of trying to do side splits. Many people can do front to back splits.” Yep, that's the only kind I could do. “But several of those still cannot do side splits.” Yep, I could not do those ever. “Why? Hard compression. They can spread their feet from side to side, have zero tension in their inner thighs, slide down and down, close to the ground and then stuck. What's stopping them? Their hip sockets. The head and neck of their femur fitting into the cup of their pelvis does not have the optimal sizes and angles to make this happen. In yin, we say this person doesn't have skeletal permission to go any further. There is no amount of yoga or stretching that will make this happen for them. Even IF will not change this. This is where we learn to accept our limitations. So, yes, IF can increase your flexibility and I hope this will help people have a little better understanding of their functional anatomy.

If you notice changes in flexibility and increases in the range of motion in your body, please be aware that it's critical to also strengthen the muscles in these areas to prevent injury. We need to have the strength to support the range of motion. Of course, I recommend yoga for this, more flow styles as they strengthen and lengthen muscles at the same time. If you do resistance training, it's very important that you have a great stretching routine on your rest days or at the end of your workouts. Try to hold your stretches with minimal muscular effort for three to four minutes instead of the likely 20 to 30 seconds you're used to. Thank you for listening to this long answer. But I know how much you both dig into research and I didn't want to sell you short.” That was great. Thank you, Miranda.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I learned so much. Who knew?

Gin Stephens: I did not know.

Melanie Avalon: I liked her part about this-- What did she say about the skeletal--?

Gin Stephens: Limitations. It's true. Yeah. I was never going to be able to do a side split no matter how hard I tries.

Melanie Avalon: It's good to know that that was not in the cards. Yeah, good to know that with IF and the weight loss and everything, that it can definitely affect our flexibility. All right, shall we move on to our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off. We have a question from Katie. The subject is, “Second try has been brutal.” And Katie says, “I sometimes wonder if my metabolism is irreparably damaged. I'm so discouraged and ready to give up and regain, no pun intended, that unfortunate fat girl mindset that Gin has often described as accepting that you're just going to get fatter and fatter.”

Gin Stephens: I want to interject there. I felt that way for a time. So, for people who haven't heard me say that, there was a time in my life I gave up, and it was sometime around 2012 to 2014 when I just got bigger and bigger, no matter what I did, I couldn't stick to anything. And I just said, “You know what? This is just me. I'm going to be in this big body.” I gave up. But not forever. I didn't give up forever. Thank goodness. All right. Back to you, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: That's so surreal to me. Till 2014, you were still--?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, 2014 is when I was 210 pounds.

Melanie Avalon: I know we talked about this a lot but the reason that's so mind blowing to me is that-- because I so associate us meeting the first time that I moved to Atlanta, and I moved to Atlanta first time in 2014.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we didn't meet till 2017.

Melanie Avalon: Was it '17?

Gin Stephens: It was '17. It was early in 17 because the podcasts-- and my book had come out already by the time we met. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I guess it was like the tail end of when I was in Atlanta the first time but it's just really surreal to me that time in Atlanta the first time around seems so short. So, the fact that all of that transformation happened all during when I was in Atlanta, and we still met when I was in Atlanta--like, that's a really quick turnaround all things considered.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really was because I really just was like, “This is it. This is going to happen.” And it did. Yeah, it was. I'm really, really, really proud of that. Looking back, it's hard to remember, I was just talking about how hard it was to paint my toenails and bend around and move. But you just feel hopeless because you've tried so hard. I tried so hard. I talk about this a lot for people who listen to intermittent fasting stories. This theme comes up again and again. And that's my other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, for people who have not listened to that one. But people over and over share how they were successful in so many areas of their life, good at things, smart, well educated, but could not get a handle on the weight. It's really frustrating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, inspiring, though. Very inspiring.

Gin Stephens: It is, but it's not you, it's biology, it's your body. I wrote this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. It's not that you have failed diets, diets failed you.

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Melanie Avalon: So, back to our question. She says, “I don't want to be back in that place, but I'm starting to feel like I don't have a choice. Not to say bad things about body positivity, but I don't feel positive or healthy in the current permutation of my body, no matter how much I try to regurgitate the mantras of health at all sizes, and it's the size of your heart that matters, not the size of your waist. Tell that to an obese person with an enlarged heart. Originally, I started IF 16:8 in 2017. It worked marvelously. I lost 30 pounds in less than two months without even really thinking about it. I took it very naturally. I figured I'd found the magic formula that would finally work for me after literal decades of failed diets. Naturally, I plateaued but stuck with the process. My doctor even told me how proud she was of me.

Then, my personal life kind of imploded. Last year, my father passed away less than two years after my mother did. Plus, the stress of an estate sale, the holidays, putting the house on the market, and trying to find a place to live. Needless to say, my discipline with food went straight down the toilet. I regained most of the weight I had lost.

Fast forward a year, I'm finally mostly settled. I'm in a new house, I have a decent nest egg. I'm generally in a good place emotionally. For once in my life, I feel fairly secure. I decided it was time to start fasting again. I thought I could slip right back in no problem since the first time it came naturally and worked marvelously. Boy, was I wrong. I've been at it about a month and the only way I can describe it is agonizing. Just as agonizing as all the other diets I did in the past and eventually failed it. It's 100% stagnation and frustration. Before, I ate whatever, and the weight dropped off. Now, no matter what I eat, it stays put. Before, it was easy for me to wait until 2 or 3 PM to eat and stop at 10 or 11. Now, I feel hungry all the time, regardless of how nutritious my meals are. I know, I know. I can already hear you both saying it's only been a month, but what a terrible month it has been, especially contrasted with how easily I fell into it before. What is happening?

I'm 39, so it's a little early for menopause, though it's not totally out of question. I don't have any other symptoms of early menopause though. Does my body need longer to recalibrate the second time or something? I thought once your body learned to be fat-adapted, it remembered. That seems to not be the case with me. Is this a common problem? Help. I love you guys so much. I'm a fan of this podcast and your individual podcast too. Thank you for all your help and advice.” And then, I sent her an email and I asked her what she was eating. She said, “It depends on the day. Sometimes, it's an Impossible Whopper with onion rings. Sometimes it's nutritious Poke Bowl filled with vegetables, beans, and tofu. Sometimes, it's Taco Bell. Sometimes, it's [unintelligible [00:32:42] stir fry with garlic, onions, peppers, snap peas, spinach, mushrooms, and baby corn. Sometimes, it's protein shakes and bars, which I don't necessarily think are the best. But I found that if I have them around, I will have fewer Burger King and Taco Bell days. I also started adding maca root to my protein shakes as suggested by Anna Cabeca on your show, since I also have hormone balance and energy issues. Katie.”

Gin Stephens: That’s a lot. And I see that the shift happened when you had the very stressful time of your life. You were having a lot of trouble in your personal life. Your father passed away, you recently had lost your mother, lot of stress, the holidays. And then, we've had a pandemic. So, I don't want to make light of that. But even people who did not have all the other stresses that you're going through, people have had trouble this year just because of the stress that the pandemic and all of that-- I mean, even if you had been safe at home and you haven't had any thing that is really gone wrong for you, still, the word 'pandemic,' the way that everything is set uncertain, watching the news, it has been a terribly, terribly stressful year. So, I want you to not discount all of that. The fact that it seems like you're wanting to eat, it's very likely to have something to do with the stress response, like you are just in-- you're craving food early in the day. You can't wait till 2 or 3 to eat. You’re also only a month in, which I know you said that we would say, but it is true. So, think about this. A lot of stress. You've been through a lot. You're hungry, hungry, hungry. You're fighting with it, and it's only a month in.

So, I want you to think back to when you first started in 2017. I bet you approached it with a different kind of mindset. I bet you were just trying it, you were excited, you were eased in, you let it unfold. You felt great. But right now, it feels like you're starting in a different mental place. I would encourage you if you don't have Fast. Feast. Repeat., get it. If you do have it or once you get it flip to the Mindset chapter. That is a really, really important chapter that I think could make a difference for you. Start working on changing yourself talk.

You may also want to kind of ease back a little bit. It sounds like you're really trying. Sometimes, when you try, try, try that makes it actually even harder. Maybe you're forgetting that it was a little challenging at the beginning when you first started, and you've forgotten what it was like in 2017. And you're expecting to just all of a sudden be able to wait till 2 or 3, when really, maybe it took you a while. I also want you to really examine your fast and make sure you're fasting completely clean. You didn't mention that at all. You also said you started intermittent fasting in 2017. That was a long time ago. That was before-- my guidelines for the clean fast have certainly evolved, the more I've learned and the more people I have worked with over the years since 2017. So, I really want you to examine what you're drinking. Are you putting lemon in your water? Are you putting a little splash of something in your coffee or sweeteners? That sort of thing. Is it having a little apple cider vinegar? Really, really think to anything that you're having. Stick to plain water, no flavors, nothing added. Sparkling water, no flavors, nothing added. Black coffee, plain tea, avoid all those fancy herbal teas with the fancy names. Just stick to tea, actual tea, and see if that helps.

Instead of forcing yourself to wait till 2 or 3, maybe say, “Alright, I'm going to open at noon. And I'm going to have a high-quality lunch. And then later, I'm going to have a high-quality dinner.” And you could probably fit in a six-hour window with a lunch and a dinner that are not giant lunch, giant dinner, but a satisfying lunch, satisfying dinner, within six hours. If you're white knuckling it, I want you to switch things up and try them, do different things, and see until it feels good again.

Also, work to de-stress. Anything that makes you feel good and helps you relax, add those things in, whether it's a hot bath, a sauna, working out, reading a book, anything. Listening to music, anything that helps you de-stress and feel better. What would you say, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think you said a lot of great things. I recently interviewed the Caltons, they wrote a book called Rebuild Your Bones. It's about osteoporosis and bone health. But it's really about the role of micronutrients in our health and how our modern diets, it's hard to supply enough nutrients and how things like stress, really, really deplete a lot of our nutrients and our bodies aren't getting all the nutrients they need. It's very likely that we won't ever feel satisfied or full. And you went through such, such an intense stressful period that I feel probably when you first started IF, it was working for you, there wasn't this whole stress aspect. And then, this is what Gin was talking about, going through that really, really stressful time, it can really, really deplete a lot of nutrients in our body can be really taxing on our body and have a lasting effect. And I think when a lot of us go through that, it can make everything harder, including fasting, including adhering to a diet and everything.

And I say that to encourage you because I think focusing on nutrition could be really, really huge. Originally, she didn't say what she was eating, and if we just had that question without knowing what she was eating-- because you were saying that when you first did IF, you ate whatever you wanted, and the weight just dropped off. And now, it doesn't seem to matter how nutritious your meals are. What I'm wondering is because just hearing your meals, it sounds like you do alternate between meals that are potentially more on the nutritious side, like whole foods based meals, and then a lot of fast food. While a lot of people can do IF and eat fast food and see weight loss and experience the benefits, I still think food choices are really, really huge. So, I think it can be hard to know if you're doing well regardless of what you're eating, if you're not eating a certain way for a long enough period of time. So, what I mean by that is, say one day you eat more on the nutritious side. But then, the next day, it's more fast food and then it's back and forth.

Unless you're eating really nutritious meals for a longer period of time, it might be hard to know if you really are feeling this way regardless of what you eat. If you're open to not eating the fast food and focusing more on like whole foods-- and when I say whole foods, I don't mean store, I mean whole foods, especially that the foods that really appeal to you and that are really high in nutrition. I would give that a try. I would almost say in the situation that it might even be better if you're open to it. If you're really struggling with hunger, I would almost say try a spiel of-- because what windows she's doing?

Gin Stephens: She didn't say. She said she's having a hard time getting to 2 or 3, which is why I suggest, don't force it, if you're not feeling good yet. Even though before you eat-- but right now is different.

Melanie Avalon: It was easy for me to wait until 2 or 3 and stop at 10 or 11. So, she was eating like an eight-hour window from 2 to 10. So, I would almost suggest-- I don't know why I say almost. I would actually suggest that you maybe consider trying a not a fasting approach right now and actually just a food approach and eat when you're hungry, but eat whole foods and see if you can get more in touch with your satiety signals and how you're reacting to food without the fast food and things like that that might be hacking your cravings and making you want more. And then, after cleaning that up for a little bit, then move into the eating window and you might find that it's a lot easier to have a fasting window. I just really think the food choices are really huge. I think a lot of people think that when they do IF that it means they can eat whatever they want during the window. And that doesn't always work, especially if it's meals that are not that nutritionally supportive.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I have a section in Fast. Feast. Repeat. about the phrase, “Eat whatever you want” and that people misunderstand it. When we say eat whatever you want, we mean eat whatever you want. We're not going to say this is the style you must eat to do intermittent fasting. But it doesn't mean eat whatever you want! Like, often use the analogy, you're a college freshman with your first meal plan and mom's not there. That happens for a lot of people. They've been careful eaters and then they start intermittent fasting, that is portrayed as eat whatever you want and then they throw all the other out the window. I was already eating like a college freshman before I started intermittent fasting. I did not have good nutritional habits. Over time, my tastes did change. I've talked about that a lot. But most of us are going to find, we feel better when we eat nutritious foods. That's just a fact and that's what our bodies need. So, really keep in mind that, yes, you can eat whatever you want, but that's not permission to eat whatever you want.

Melanie Avalon: Few other things, she says that she has protein shakes and bars, which she doesn't think are the best. But if she has them, she's less likely to eat Burger King or Taco Bell. What other foods could you keep on hand, whole foods that would also if you eat them, make you less likely to eat Burger King or Taco Bell? You're the one in control, you're the one in charge here, you're the one choosing what you want to buy what you keep in your house what you have access to. So, I'm sure there are foods you can find that you do think are the best and that you can keep on hand and that you could eat and have fewer of the fast-food days. Also, if you're drinking protein shakes, that's something actually, for example, that I would suggest switching that to whole foods protein. Instead of a protein shake, have chicken breast or steak or something because it's going to be much more satiating. I don't see really any reason to, especially if you're struggling to lose weight, to make all of these calories so easily assimilated.

Gin Stephens: Can I tell you what I found recently that has been just amazing for opening my window? I don't have an official affiliate relationship with them, although I'd love to. Hello, Daily Harvest, send me an email. Daily Harvest, I've been using them after I saw several people recommend them. And, yes, gin@intermittentfastingstories.com, Daily Harvest, I would love to hear from you. But I can't figure out how to contact them because I would love to have them sponsor my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what did they do?

Gin Stephens: They have food, it is-- I mean, I know it's not all-- it's a lot of grain in there, some grain, not all grains, but it's some things you probably wouldn't eat, but it's whole foods and it comes frozen. And they have bowls, and they have flat-breads, and they have smoothies, but the ingredients list is so clean and good.

Melanie Avalon: Are they plant based?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I think they might have emailed us before.

Gin Stephens: Well, see if you could find that email because I just found them as a person. Gin Stephens, the person. And I have been opening my window every single day with one of their soups or one of their bowls. My husband and I will split one of their smoothies after dinner as a dessert. They don't work well for me on an empty stomach, but they work great as a dessert. We'll just share one. They are so good. If you go to ginstephens.com on the Favorite Things tab, I do have a link there that you can use to save money. It's not official, like sponsorship or anything. It's just like any person could share their link. That's what I'm doing. But it's on the Favorite Things tab at ginstephens.com. But it's also really, really tasty, and I'm not plant based. So, I might have one of their bowls and it might have lentils in there plus a ton of veggies, maybe kale. But it's so quick, you can just pop it in the microwave.

I'm going to cook a big dinner later and I cook it and prepare it, but I don't want to also fuss around with something to open my window. So, their lentil bowl with all the veggies that I can pop in the microwave, maybe I'll throw a little sour cream on there. Yes, that flavor profile that would do well with some sour cream. And I am just so satisfied. Instead of grabbing the cheese and crackers again, I'm having this really nutritious food. So, I'm just a fan. I'm really excited and recommend it. The food is so good. And my husband loves it, I love it. And it's quick. See, that's the thing. I'm busy, I'm working during the day and then I'm going to cook a full meal later for dinner, I don't also really have the time to-- and I was finding myself always grabbing broccoli and hummus or cheese and crackers. And I was in a rut just because I could grab that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. I would really focus on the food choices if it was me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's good advice. All right. We have a question from Amanda. Amanda says, “I started listening to the podcast last week on episode 41 now. I remember you mentioned berberine and I want to know if I can still take it without a meal because I've tried to do one or two 40-hour fast a week. Bottle says once daily with meal or as directed by a healthcare professional. I typically have a window later in the day for regular days, just not sure about taking it on 40-hour fast days. I just bought it today. So, I want to know the best way to take it before I start. I've been intermittent fasting since February of 2020.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, berberine. So, this would actually be a really good situation to have a CGM to see how you react to berberine during the fast. So, for listeners berberine is-- Well, okay. So, there's a drug called metformin that a lot of listeners are probably familiar with. It's often prescribed for diabetes, but it can have really remarkable effects on lowering blood glucose levels, lowering HbA1c, discouraging the liver from producing glucose, things like that. Oh, and activating ANPK, which is one of the main genes that we activate during fasting that has a lot of the beneficial effects of fasting.

So, the reason I say all that is berberine is a natural plant compound that has been found in studies to have very comparable effects to metformin without a lot of the potential side effects of the pharmaceutical. Studies have found that by taking berberine, that it can decrease insulin resistance, just in general can make the insulin in your body be more effective. It can help your cells break down sugars, so use sugar more effectively.

Like I said, it does decrease sugar production in the liver, and I mentioned this before, but one of the most mind-blowing things to me is that in diabetes, the majority of the elevated blood sugar is actually not coming from the diet, it's coming from the liver producing sugar. Do, berberine can interfere with that process, and it might actually even support beneficial gut bacteria, which is really interesting. So, point being, I actually ordered some berberine after doing all this research. It's usually suggested that you take it right before meals, like three times a day. I assume you could take it during that long fast but my only concern would be, depending on how you're reacting to it-- Did she say she started taking it already?

Gin Stephens: No, she wanted to wait.

Melanie Avalon: And she's going to do a 40-hour fast. You might find-- if your blood sugar is already low, on that long fast, the only thing I would be worried about would be if it dropped you too low and then you got symptoms of hypoglycemia. So, that would be something that you'd have to experiment with.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I probably would just follow the directions of the bottle and not try to take it in a long fast. I just wouldn't. I would just take it once a day with the meal, like it says, or if you're not having a meal, don't take it.

Melanie Avalon: If you are measuring your blood sugar-- although we just talked to the beginning about how that might be all over the place. But that might be a situation where if you're long into your fast and you measure your blood sugar, and it's good, I probably wouldn't take berberine at that moment because probably just going to drop it lower. On the flip side, if you're long into your fast and your blood sugar's high, then you might want to take it and see what happens. I'm really excited now because I just ordered some and I want to see how it affects my CGM.

Gin Stephens: Well, definitely share that after you've tried it for a while and let us know what happens.

Melanie Avalon: I will. I do take oftentimes Keto Before 6, which is my Quicksilver Scientific, and it has a lot of ANPK activators. So, I just mentioned that ANPK is genetic pathways that are activated while we're fasting and is responsible for a lot of the benefits of fasting. And so Keto Before 6 contains-- it's different compounds that all activate ANPK. So, it contains berberine. It also has quercetin and I think resveratrol and milk thistle and a few other things. I've been taking a little bit of berberine via that, but I haven't taken like just berberine. So, I have to report back. But I'm a fan of the concept of berberine. I'm not a fan of most pharmaceuticals, but I don't really know how I feel about metformin. I'm very intrigued by metformin. I think if I ever were to experiment with a pharmaceutical, I would experiment with metformin out of curiosity.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because a lot of people just take it for health benefits.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I know David Sinclair talks about it a lot. Peter Attia, I think, talks about it. It's one pharmaceutical that often comes up in discussion on a lot of the podcasts that I listened to about the potential benefits. Some people will pretty much take it for life, kind of like aspirin. It doesn't do the same thing as aspirin but as far as “pharmaceuticals” that potentially might have more health benefits than not.

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That's also why he made BLUblox light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions. They have clear computer glasses you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGlo lens that block the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like, bam, tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep. Also, get their Sleep REMedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes. Like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind blowing.

In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life. These glasses also come in a huge array of styles, so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style. You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom, and use the code, IFPODCAST, to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code, IFPODCAST, for 15% off.  All right, now back to the show.

We have a question from Heather. Subject is "Transition Period." And Heather says, “Hi, guys. I just started IF five days ago. I'm currently doing a six-hour eating window. My husband and I decided to start a healthier lifestyle and we each chose our own method. He is counting calories and I am attempting IF. I've absolutely loved IF so far. I'm the type of person that has in the past claimed to need food every 10 minutes. I truly didn't know that I would be able to maintain this lifestyle for more than one hour. I know, I'm crazy. Anyway, this week has been wonderful. I feel more energy throughout the day. I've not felt deprived at all, and I am enjoying my food so much more than I did when I was eating all day. I'm currently going through your podcast from the beginning and I'm on episode 11.” I hear you meant 11, that’s so long time ago.

Gin Stephens: I'm sorry if we gave bad advice on episode 11.

Melanie Avalon: Sometime, I'm going to have to go back and listen to just like a random episode from that time period. I might do that. She says, “I hear you mentioned the transition phase or period, and I'm curious how long that usually lasts. I've had moments in my fasting period where I'm tempted to reach for food out of sheer habit or quick moments where I feel hungry because my body is used to eating very often. Does this go away? I thought I would add that I've only lost about one pound so far. I would have been discouraged by this if it were not for your podcast. I'm trusting the method and I'm waiting for more results. Thanks so much.” All right.

Gin Stephens: All right, Heather is on day five. So, Heather, I hope that you fast forward to this new episode and hear it now. I really don't want you to expect any weight loss in the first 28 days. That's what I've got in my 28-Day FAST Start of Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, a pound and five days is actually really good. Remember, also, I don't want you to weigh every day and think of the fluctuations. I mean I do want you to weigh every day, but I don't want you to get caught up on the daily fluctuations. I want you to weigh daily and then once a week, calculate your weekly average. So, if you're on day five, you don't even have a week yet to have a weekly average. And, of course, I don't want you to do that till after your first 28 days.

So, on day 29, I'd like you to weigh again, and then weigh daily and once a week, calculate your weekly average because really, it's only the overall trend that matters. So, as far as the adjustment period, that really varies for everybody. Bert Herring talks in his book about three weeks. Three weeks to adjust. And I think that is actually overly optimistic. And maybe now with how everyone seems to have metabolic syndrome, prediabetes, people are just not in great shape starting out. I sure wasn't. When I started out, I wasn't in great shape, physically, I was obese. And so, three weeks is a little bit optimistic. So really, some people find it takes as long as 8 weeks, 12 weeks even, depending on you and your body, to really feel like you're starting to adjust to intermittent fasting.

And if someone's been obese or overweight for a long time, it can take even longer. A lot of that has to do with what your fasting insulin level is, and you're not going to know what that is unless you've had a test, and most people haven't. Melanie, someone was talking recently in the Facebook groups about trying to get a fasting insulin test, and her doctor's like, “That's not what you mean. You want to get a blood glucose test.” And she's like, “No, I want fasting insulin,” he's like, “No,” [gasps] And the doctor could not understand why someone would want a fasting insulin test, or couldn't figure out how to write it on the forum, didn't know what she was talking about. I'm not saying that to say bad things about doctors, because there's a lot of doctors who are using them and understand them and all of that. So, you probably don't have your fasting insulin levels. But if your fasting insulin levels are high, it's going to take time for that to come down and that's part of your body's adjustment before you'll see the benefits of fasting.

Long story short, we really could say three to eight weeks for the adjustment period, but it really can vary wildly. If you were someone who was eating keto prior to starting intermittent fasting, your body may already be fat adapted, and so your adjustment period might be very brief. I mentioned before on the podcast, in 2014, when I finally was able to start intermittent fasting and finally stick to it for the first time ever, I had been trying keto that whole summer, failing at keto. I mean I was doing it, I didn't lose any weight. I did it 100%, didn't lose a single pound. Now, I know that's not how my body feels best. But I probably became fat adapted, and I was definitely in ketosis. Wasn't losing body fat, probably because I was eating a lot. Eating a lot of fat, not having any need to tap into my body fat. But as soon as I switched to intermittent fasting and added that carbs, I felt immediately better, and I started losing weight right away. I didn't have to have an adjustment period. So, all that to be said, it really, really varies.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's great. I think you covered it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's going to be months before Heather gets to this episode if she's listening from episode 11.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. Okie-dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode187. Those show notes we'll have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. You can join our Facebook groups. I have IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life. Are we plugging your new Facebook group, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do have a new Facebook group if anyone is interested in things outside of intermittent fasting because I talked about that I've started a third podcast. We've actually recorded episode 0, which is our trailer episode and also episode 1. The Facebook group is Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. The podcast will come out-- we're hoping for Episode 1, December 2nd is our target release date. And our first episode is all about sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I just recorded two back-to-back part one and part two episodes again with Dr. Kirk Parsley, listener Q&A on sleep and both of them are almost three hours.

Gin Stephens: We talk about Dr. Kirk Parsley and his Sleep Remedy on the podcast, but we also talk about the sleep chronotypes. You and I've talked about that before, right? I'm a lion, you're a--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What was it, a wolf or something?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think you're a wolf. Sheri is also a wolf, my friend Sheri. Late at night, yeah, Sheri’s a wolf. My cohost on the other podcast is a wolf, just like you. That'll be coming out December 2nd. The reason we decided to start with sleep is because we asked people what they were interested and hearing and that came up over and over. People are struggling with sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I emailed the first heart one episode to my assistant and it was three hours. She was like, “I didn't realize there was so much to know about sleep.” And I was like, “This is just part one. There's a part two coming.” There's so many questions. There's so much. That was one of the good takeaways. Because so many people will say that we all are naturally early birds, and I asked him about that, and he was like, it's not really debated in the scientific literature about there being different circadian rhythms for people.

Gin Stephens: It's known that it's true, right? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He was like, it's not really controversial. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Then, why is everybody saying that we're all early birds."

Gin Stephens: I know. The early birds started that. People who are one way, really, really assume that everyone else should be like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Kind of like with food and diet and everything.

Gin Stephens: I mean, I really think they're like, “Well, I wake up really early, and I feel great and I get a lot done. So, you should do that, too. And if you can't, you must be super lazy.” And that's how these things get started. And, no, it's not that you're super lazy or even lazy at all. You just have a different rhythm. You're more productive later in the day, and you could feel like a loser and a failure because you're fighting against your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100%. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. And I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. I look forward to it.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Aug 21

Episode 18: How Much Food?, Favorite Recipes, How Many Calories Break A Fast, IF Weekend Struggles, Collagen Peptides, Window Changes And Timing, And More!

Collagen Peptides , Intermittent Fasting , Mindsets , paleo , Struggles , Supplements , Vegetarianism , What To Eat , Windows

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Welcome to Episode 18 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of The What When Wine Diet: Effortless Weight Loss - Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Hi friends! In this episode, we talk about how much food we eat in our window, and our favorite recipes! We also tackle how many calories break a fast, and tips for sticking to IF when you're bored/not working/it's the weekend/ etc. We also clarify some things about the eating windows, like how strict they are and if you can change them up. And much more!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

2:05 - Gin's vacation experience

5:10 - Listener Feedback: Camilla - Veganism As An Ethical Rather Than Dietary Choice  

7:35 - Listener Feedback: Kelley - Micro Algae Omega-3 Supplementation

10:00 - Listener Q&A: Jessica - How Much Food Do You Literally Eat In Your Window?

14:35 - Listener Q&A: Annie - What Are Gin's And Melanie's Favorite Go-To Recipes?

21:55 - Listener Q&A: Phillip - How Many Calories Break A Fast?

28:2o - Listener Q&A: Stephanie - How To Do IF On The Weekends, Or When Not Working?

Gin's Post: The Importance Of Mindset 

36:5o - Listener Q&A: Sandy - Can You Have Collagen Peptides During The Fast?

Gin's Post: Does A "Clean" Fast Really Matter?

40:55 - Listener Q&A: Mimi - What If You Have Bladder Pain During A Fast? Is It From Oxalates? 

Melanie's FREE Food Sensitivity Guide

40:55 - Listener Q&A: Mimi - Can You Benefit From IF If You Don't Fast For More Than 16 Hours?

47:50 - Listener Q&A: Susanne- Can You Alternate IF Methods And Windows?

47:50 - Listener Q&A: Susanne- How Strict Is The Timing For The IF Windows?

STUFF WE LIKE

50 Awesome Delicious Gluten-Free Paleo Recipes In Melanie's New Book: The What When Wine Diet!

Collagen Peptides (Bulletproof - What Melanie Currently Uses)

Collagen Peptides (Vital Proteins - Melanie has used this in the past, and many people love it!)

Collagen Peptides (Marine-based: Melanie's recent research indicates that marine based peptides may be ideal, and better than bovine-based)

REFERENCES

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, and/or Gin's Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 28

Episode 241: Fasting For Health, Minnesota Starvation Experiment, Glycemic Index, Red Meat Vs. White Meat, Grain Fed Vs. Grass-Fed Beef, Saturated Fat, Clean Beauty Products, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 241 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

FEALS: Feals makes CBD oil which satisfies ALL of Melanie's stringent criteria: it's premium, full spectrum, organic, tested, pure CBD in MCT oil! It's delivered directly to your doorstep. CBD supports the body's natural cannabinoid system, and can address an array of issues, from sleep to stress to chronic pain, and more! Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

3:35 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

15:45 - Listener Q&A: lynn - Best window for health benefits

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

25:15 - FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

27:55 - Listener Q&A: Ashley - Minnesota Starvation experiment

The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating

39:05 - Listener Q&A: rebecca - Eating red meat regularly

Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet

Episode 237: Our Taste For Sodium, Electrolytes, Low Carb Diets, Hydration & pH Balance, Fatigue & Muscle Cramps, Thermoregulation, Exercise, Sauna, Need Vs. Optimization, And More!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

53:00 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

56:00 - Listener Q&A: Phoebe - Clean Beauty brands besides beautycounter

Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon Facebook Group

EWG’s Healthy Living App

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #77 - Dr. Jason Fung

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 241 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. Yes, free steaks for a year. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high-quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution. 

It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers. They find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately your health so that you can finally get meat have the highest standards 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry.  

But back to meat, ButcherBox's meat is delicious. Each box contains 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want and it's shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious. The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the pork chops and the bacon. Basically, this stuff is delicious. And this holiday, ButcherBox has an incredible deal. They have never done this before ever and it won't last forever. They're actually giving new members pre–New York strip steaks for a year. Until November 30th, 2021, you can get two delicious 100% grass-fed New York Strip steaks for free in every box for a year. Just go to butcherbox.com/if podcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive this limited time offer of free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 241 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I am okay but so, so disappointed. As you know-- 

Melanie Avalon: Me too.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The last time we recorded, we were going to be getting together in Atlanta. We've never met face to face still. But I had to not go to Atlanta because I got a little fever and I was like, "Well, team, should I still come to Atlanta if I have a fever?" They're like, "We can just record from your house." So, I'm recording from home instead of going to Atlanta and so we did not meet. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so sad. Listeners, I found the place we were going to go. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I looked at the menu. It was going to be great. I will go to Atlanta, again. I know I will.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I want to tell you, Gin, Gin sent me very beautiful flowers but it's funny. I sent her picture and she was like, "They're supposed to look like this." She sent another picture where they looked more full in the picture. They have since opened up. So, now, they look like the picture that you sent. 

Gin Stephens: Were they already arranged or did you have to arrange them? 

Melanie Avalon: I did.  

Gin Stephens: See, it was supposed to be arranged. It did not work out. It was supposed to come already arranged from a florist.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, really? Did it say that in the notes? 

Gin Stephens: I mean that's what I ordered.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, okay. [laughs] Well, they were beautiful. Thank you. Lots of pink. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm sorry, you had to self-arrange your flowers. That's new. When you do one of those, it goes to just a local florist and then I guess they decide what to do.  

Melanie Avalon: Somebody else sent flowers from the same company in the same order in the same box and they weren't arranged either. Do you think those were supposed to be arranged? 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's weird. I don't know. But I've used this company for a long time and they've always gone to people arranged before.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, they were beautiful. Thank you.  

Gin Stephens: But you know, with the whole pandemic, who knows? Maybe business models have changed. So, I'm glad they were pretty. Happy, happy birthday. Sorry that we didn't get to celebrate in person. But you know, thank goodness for modern technology where I can just record from home which is probably working out better anyway, because I didn't want to be in a hotel for all those days and in a recording studio.  

Melanie Avalon: I think this happened last time. Remember last time you're going to come?  

Gin Stephens: Well, last time, I couldn't come because the world shut down. I wasn't sick but all the recording studios shut down because it was March of 2020. 

Melanie Avalon: Right.  

Gin Stephens: They're like, "Sorry, no one can travel anywhere in the entire world ever because of COVID." It was just because they just shut down everything. I tried to find a place here locally, at a local radio station, they're like, "Nope, we're not letting anyone in because of COVID." So, I just recorded from home. But you know, we have it all worked out because I did it once before. If it ever happens again, I'll just plan to record from home because it really is nice just to be at home.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Nice.  

Gin Stephens: I can do it. I can record professionally from home. So, it's really fun. I have a director, and there's an engineer, and we're all in there together, and the two ladies that are doing it with me are just delightful. We actually have a great time. As we're going through the book, they're like, "Okay, now, tell me more about that." [laughs] Lots of fun. 

Melanie Avalon: How much more do you have to record? 

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, I'm never going to be finished. It feels like it's going to be forever. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I've done a lot of audiobooks on my own but for my book, I just recorded the intro and that took long enough. 

Gin Stephens: It takes hours. It's really intense.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it really is.  

Gin Stephens: I really don't enjoy it. I'm making the most of it. I'm enjoying the company, I'm enjoying the process as much as I can, but I can't wait for it to be over. All the words, I'm like, "Who wrote this book? Who put all this garbage in there?" They're like, "Oh, yeah, me. It was me. I wrote it." Like, "Why did I write it like that? I should have not used that word." [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm sure it will turn out fabulously. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I hope so. So, how was your birthday? 

Melanie Avalon: It was so good. I had a wonderful dinner at my favorite restaurant in Atlanta where I'd only actually been to the bar, I hadn't eaten there before. I went with the family, and it was just really, really amazing. Then, oh, can I tell the first thing that happened on my birthday?  

Gin Stephens: Sure.  

Melanie Avalon: It is so exciting and it's only going to be exciting for a segment of our audience. But, okay, Taylor Swift, as you know, for all of her albums, she releases a signed version on her store, and they sell out in minutes, like minutes, like you cannot get the signed version. It just so happens that when I woke up on my birthday-- I do this thing where I wake up and you're not supposed to do this, listeners, but the first thing I do when I wake up is I check my email, because I wake up very groggy and I find that if I check my email, then I'm like, "Oh, I'm awake." So, I find it to be very helpful. 

So, I checked my email. The first email I saw was from the Taylor Swift store announcing the signed CDs. I was like, "Oh, my goodness, I'm sure these are all gone. There's no way." I clicked on it. They were there. The email had just come in, and I'd just woken up, and I checked it. So, I got three of them. Then five minutes later, they were gone. But it was like, "Happy Birthday." 

Gin Stephens: Perfect birthday. First thing I do is check my email too. Who said you're not supposed to do that? 

Melanie Avalon: They say start your day off-- 

Gin Stephens: Who is they?  

Melanie Avalon: They say, oh, no. They're like starts you off in a state of cortisol rather than gratitude. But I think it just wakes me up. 

Gin Stephens: I've already been like resting, and I feel good, and so then, I just look at them. It doesn't stress me out.  

Melanie Avalon: I like checking my email.  

Gin Stephens: I think it would stress me out more not to check it. I'd be like, "What am I missing? What am I missing?" Then, I'd be all stressed out. Instead, it gives me a feeling of accomplishment like, "I just did all that," and then I get up about of bed. So, actually, they are not the boss of me or you. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it gives me a sense, because I can't address all the emails, but I can see what all is there. So, I can have a sense of like, "Okay, this is the task for the day." 

Gin Stephens: Yep, exactly. Yeah, it's the day started. I flagged things that I can't handle right at that moment. So, then I have flagged emails, then I go back to them later, but it puts that aside and then I can start my day. 

Melanie Avalon: It might also matter-- I love in general my emails. It's all things I want to be talking about. It's like talking to guests. It's with brands. It's very fun. It's not like a drag for me. So, it's not like it's I very much look forward to emailing people. So, can I make one quick announcement?  

Gin Stephens: Sure.  

Melanie Avalon: By the time this airs, for sure, I think the preorder special will have gone live last week, I think, for my serrapeptase. So, that's very exciting. If it's still available, you can get it now probably or preorder it now. I'm pretty sure-- because I was talking with my partner, I'm pretty sure it's going to be shipping pretty soon after the preorders. So, we thought it was going to be maybe January, but the turnaround has been pretty fast, and I think today that we're recording, not that this is released, I think I'm going to get my bottle of it because--  

Gin Stephens: I was going to ask if you had had any yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Scott at the company, he got his yesterday and he was sending me pictures, and he tried it for himself-- and oh, this is really exciting. So, it has an enteric coating, because serrapeptase, if you don't have a protective coating on the capsule to keep it from breaking down in the stomach, it'll break down before it reaches the small intestine where it needs to reach in order to get into the bloodstream. So, he did some tests where he was putting our serrapeptase in vinegar and then putting other competing brands in vinegar to see if they broke down or not. All the other brands broke down within like half an hour and ours was still good at the two-hour mark, which means it's definitely surviving the stomach, and then it'll open in the small intestine. They've tested it for the potency and the effectiveness because apparently enzymes die pretty easily. They'll become inactive. But this one is all good and it's tested for mold and heavy metals, and it has an MCT filler, no additives. Oh, I'm so excited. 

Gin Stephens: Very exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: So, friends, you can get it. Long, long, long story short, it's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. Now, it's created in a lab. That's why it's vegan. People were asking me how can it be vegan if it's created by a silkworm? It is grown in a lab. That is how. You take it in the fasted state it breaks down protein buildups in your body, problematic protein buildups. So, if you have allergies or inflammation, it can help that, it can break down fibroids, it can potentially reduce cholesterol, amyloid plaque which is involved in Alzheimer's. It's like a wonder supplement. So, you can probably order it now. The information for it is that melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase and the actual website to order is avalonx.com. And I'll put all that in the show notes.  

Gin Stephens: So fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I know. All right. So, shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Lynn and the subject is: "Best window for health benefits." Lynn says, "I am new to IF, and while I could see me lose a few pounds, I'm in good shape overall. No health issues to speak of, all blood work in normal range, and I work out with weights and cardio regularly. My goal, which leads to my question, is to gain optimal health from IF, not necessarily to lose weight. So, my question is what is or are the best fasting windows for optimal health gains whether that be gains in gut health, autophagy, insulin, etc.? What can I expect as a 53-year-old woman to gain from a 24-hour fast, 36-hour fast, 48-hour fast etc.? Is there a sweet spot of fasting that might be best for health gains? Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I love your podcasts. I listened to them all. No offense, Gin, but Melanie, I really enjoy your Biohacking Podcast." No offense taken Lynn. [laughs] I'm glad you love it. "For this podcast, I really enjoy it when you go on your tangents. I always learn something new. Wishing you both health and happiness. Lynn." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Lynn, thank you for your question. I'm glad she likes the tangents. This is a really great question and I feel like with diet where I don't think there's one right diet for everybody, and it's very individual, and you have to find what works for you, I think the same goes for fasting. Also for diet, [giggles] I think the idea with diet for long-term health, I think it's more about what you do for life, the thing that you can maintain and do that is healthy compared to a crash diet or a crash healthy phase, and then reverting back to a standard diet. So, with fasting, I think is a foundation, finding the daily fasting window that works for you in that you get in "ample fasting." So, probably a minimum of 16 hours fasting every day. Then, the window-- I think if you can fast longer than that every day, I think that's fine. But if you're doing a 24-hour fast and that leads to an unhealthy relationship with food where you feel like you overeat or you feel that it's not sustainable, then I would say fast less. For some people, that might be great. I think the first part to answer the question is just the daily fasting window that works well for you-- Of course, there would be an approach. Some people do better with something like ADF, where they're not fasting every day. So, that might be the "daily maintenance approach" that you do and that would be where you'd be alternating. 

But then beyond that, like longer fasts, so 36-hour, fast, 48-hour fast, etc., I think those are concentrated endeavors that you might want to take occasionally to do some extra deep cleaning in a way. You can kind of think of fasting is your daily cleaning of the apartment or house, and then a longer fast might be like that time where you sit down to do a really deep clean. That said, I think you will get a fantastic epic health and never do a long fast. I don't think you have to do it to have incredible health benefits. But if it resonates with you and you want to do one, I also think that's fine. I don't want to be confusing to listeners. But I also don't have a problem with something like a fasting mimicking diet, which is Valter Longo's work. He has his version that you can buy or people do their own self constructed versions. You can google like D-I-Y-F-M-D. I'm not a doctor. I'm not endorsing that, but I'm saying that it's something you might want to do as well. That would be basically getting, according to his research, the effects of a long fasts or like a five day fast without completely water fasting for five days. 

Gin Stephens: It just sounds so much harder to me than having to eat that little bit of food. I cannot imagine it being easier than just fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: What's interesting is for me, a 48-hour fast, I think, it would be much easier for me, complete water fasting. Five days, I don't know if I could fast five days. Mostly with the sleep issue, I think if I did-- I haven't done FMD, but I wonder if I did it, where I had all of the stuff just at night, if I could do the five days. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it just sounds like a really miserable low-calorie diet. It doesn't sound like fasting at all 

Melanie Avalon: The benefits that you're getting, it's extremely low protein. So, you're really tapping into that autophagy. So, there's a lot of research on how it affects the immune system. Breaking down immune compounds-- I think most of his research is in rodents, but basically, breaking down immune compounds and as he says it can "reset" the immune system, and it might be like a level of autophagy that you wouldn't achieve otherwise. 

Gin Stephens: So, you're saying that by eating those small amounts of food, you're having more autophagy than if you just completely fasted? That doesn't make any sense. 

Melanie Avalon: No, no. Not more than if you just completely fasted.  

Gin Stephens: Right. See, that's my whole point. That's what I don't get. I understand his research showing that there are benefits to his fasting mimicking diet, mimicking fasting, but I cannot wrap my head around it being easier than actual fasting or even better than actual fasting. That's the part I cannot make sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think as far as easier, I think it'd be individual, some people would find it easier and some people wouldn't. As far as equivalent or better, I think it's possible depending on the individual, it might be equivalent. I think it's possible depending on an individual, for some, it might be better, for some, it might be worse. It's hard to know. Yeah, it's a lot of unknowns. Basically, it's something that people could try if they want. 

Gin Stephens: I do want to also say that personally, I always recommend, if you're going to fast more than 72 hours, you should be under medical supervision, just because you don't want to DIY it and get in over your head. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's great point. I'll put a link in the show notes. I have interviewed recently actually Dr. Valter Longo on the show that Lynn mentioned on the Biohacking Podcast. So, I'll put a link to that. But I said a lot, Gin.  

Gin Stephens: I think Lynn has such an interesting question. We really haven't seen a lot of this recently. Maybe because I left Facebook, I don't know. People in the community are less likely to-- I'm not sure. All the time in Facebook, I remember people would try to post this one graphic that was like, "Here's what happens when you fast." By the hour and it was like, "Here's what happens at x and y and art 24 and 36." Unfortunately, our body just isn't like that. We don't really have like, "Here's what happens at 24 on the dot and here's what happens at 36." It's going to be really highly individual, because it depends on your own metabolic flexibility, it depends on what you ate, so many factors. So, it's not like we can say, here is the amount of fasting that's right for you. We very often-- well, actually, every time, I think we emphasize that we can't really say that, because it just depends so much on personal factors like how big your appetite is.  

Like you said at the beginning, Melanie, whether you fast for 23 hours or 16 hours, it really just is going to depend on you. So, we can't give you a here's what a 53-year-old woman would gain from this particular fast or that particular fast. It's really all about being your own study of one and responding to how you feel over time in day to day. Some days, you're going to find that you feel great fasting longer, and other days, you're hungrier. I think for optimal health gains, your best fasting windows are the ones that feel good day after day. For me, that really looks like a flexible approach.  

I started off back in the day, Dr. Herring's Fast-5, which was a five hour daily eating window, and I was fairly rigid with that when I was first starting out. But over time, it had become very intuitive and learn to listen to my body. That's really I think where the optimal health comes in, in the listening to your body. One day I'm really busy and have a short window and the next day I'm like, "Man, I'm extra hungry. I need an eight-hour window today." That is really I think where the best health comes in. Learning to listen to your body, being responsive, knowing when you need a longer window and fasting longer when it feels right. I was just sick last week and I wasn't as hungry when I wasn't feeling great. So, I didn't eat very much. Then, when I got my appetite back, I ate more food. So, it's just a matter of again really being responsive to your body. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. We are on the same page.  

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Melanie Avalon: Now, we have a question from Ashley. The subject is: "Minnesota starvation experiment." And Ashley says, "Hello, Gin." So, this was directed at Gin. She says, "I absolutely love Fast. Feast. Repeat and I wish I had read it 10 years ago. I'm curious regarding why the subjects in the Minnesota starvation "failed," so to speak, and that they became obsessed with food and could not maintain a healthy weight loss? Is it simply a matter of extended eating window? I'm not fully convinced that the reason is based on the fact that their foods had high glycemic index. There are many, many people in this world with diets that are similar in nutritional makeup. Yet, they aren't all necessarily obsessive with food, nor do most of them have weight problems. I would greatly appreciate your insight." 

Gin Stephens: Yep. Thank you for asking, Ashley. Yeah, at no point, did anyone, me, or any of the things that I've read have any comments about their failure being related to the high glycemic index. You can go ahead and put that out of your mind. I've never read an interpretation of their failure as having anything to do with the glycemic index. I'm not even sure if the glycemic index had been created at that point, honestly. The reason that they "failed" had to do with their bodies perceived that they were starving. They were eating very low amounts of food. They were doing a typical low-calorie diet, where they were eating a little bit here and there. They were eating small amounts of calories over the day. So, they never really were tapping into their fat stores like you would during the fast. So, they were not fasting. Obviously, they were eating but they were eating a very low-calorie diet. So, their bodies slowed things down, their metabolisms got slower, they started to have problems with their hunger hormones going out of whack. 

You may want to read that section again in Fast. Feast. Repeat, this is the teacher in me, because if you read it, again, I think, it's pretty clearly explained. So, whatever chapter that said, I guess, it's in the introduction. But basically, it's the classic what we've all been through and also the Biggest Loser study showed the same thing. When we do a really low-calorie diet, our bodies fight back. How is fasting different? Fasting is different, because we are metabolically flexible once we adapt to the clean fast, we are fasting. Our insulin is low, we tap into our fat stores, we're actually well fueled during the fast because we're tapped into our fat stores. So, our bodies don't see that we need to slow down. All I know is anybody who's done a low-calorie traditional diet, and struggled, struggled, struggled, knows what I'm talking about. When you fast clean, it is like night and day difference. I could never maintain a low-calorie diet long term. I always failed and struggled. But I've been doing intermittent fasting with no problems since 2014. It's just a completely different way of fueling your body. Did that make sense, Melanie?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have some thoughts about it. I'm super curious. I interviewed Gary Taubes and his newest book is called The Case for Keto. But he talks about how people are on protein-sparing modified fasts, which are severely restricted diets, much more so than the Minnesota starvation experiment, which was-- I was just looking at it, 1,560. Yeah, 1,560 calories per day. Like a PSMF, protein-sparing modified fast. Sometimes, that's like 500 calories per day. I remember he said, what was interesting and one of the studies on it was that, when people follow PSMF, they didn't experience hunger. So, if they had that diet, but then if they added to it just a little bit of carbs, then they would be like ravenously hungry, which is really fascinating. Basically, being in a certain state due to the dietary choices and the calorie restriction was likely putting them in a state of ketosis, so they weren't hungry because they were living off of their body fat stores. But then, when you add in these carbs that mess with the mechanisms, then all of a sudden, they get hungry. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, they were eating just enough to keep them out of ketosis, so they were lethargic, and draggy, and-- yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Few things I wonder like, because she was mentioning the high glycemic. So, they were eating-- I mean they're basically just eating carbs. They're eating potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, bread, and macaroni. I'm super curious if they've been eating keto, like if they've been eating 1,560 calories of keto, would they have been starving? I would posit that maybe they wouldn't have been. It sounds like they are basically on-- basically, if you wanted to create a diet, a calorie restricted diet to I think, make somebody starving, you would want to give them calorie restricted, but like you just said, Gin, not so severely calorie restricted that they're inevitably going to enter ketosis because there's just such severe restriction. So, it's enough to keep them pretty much in the fed state and then all from carbs to boot. So, they're basically just living from carb to carb. 

Gin Stephens: And so, they were lethargic, and draggy, and never felt good. Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: That's the setup. This has not occurred, because I know you and I have discussed this before in the show, but this hadn't occurred to me before, Gin, until just now. I bet also, this was 1945. So, the obesity epidemic was not what it is today. I imagine these people coming into the experiment, even if they did the same experiment today with the same "baseline" state of people, I imagine these people probably had lower body fat to begin with. So, that could have played a role too.  

Gin Stephens: They started out leaner just because that's how people were back in the 40s. 

Melanie Avalon: I really think they could set it up the same way and they would make it look like the same way, because it would be a not an underweight BMI. But I think people were just leaner then. So, even a not underweight BMI, it probably was just a basically different cohort. 

Gin Stephens: Different variables.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: The key thing is that they were not allowed to eat until they were satisfied. Because at the end of what Ashley said, she's like, "There are many, many people in the world with diets that are similar in nutritional makeup, and yet they aren't necessarily obsessive with food." The key is that people who follow a diet where they're allowed to eat until they're satisfied, that's a very different case. These are artificially constructed from eating, like they were kept from eating the amount of food that their bodies wanted, and also their physical activity was increased as well. So, it was like the perfect storm of eat less, move more while never allowing them to-- if they'd actually fasted, how would it have been different? So, of course, we can't go back because that's not the test that they did. That's not the experiment.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep, this is interesting. Actually, yesterday, I was interviewed-- This is always so surreal to me, Gin. There's this guy named Bill Tancer. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he actually has a CGM company, and he'd reached out to me because he wanted to work with me on some stuff. He invited me onto his podcast. It was so fun because it's so like weird to me because he had read my book. He actually read my book like all of it, and with asking me specific questions about it. It's very surreal to me still to like, "Oh, a New York Times bestselling author reads my book and wants to ask me questions about it specifically?" So, it was really fun. But the reason I'm bringing it up was, one of the things he asked me about from the book was, I discussed in the book, so, it was the 2015 personalized nutrition by prediction of glycemic responses, and this is something that I know Gin and I discussed this study on the show before, but I reread it because he had mentioned that he wanted to talk about it. I was like, "Oh, I better reread it."  

It's the one where they put people on CGM, it was 800 people, and they measured their responses to a total of 46,898 meals. They didn't just look at the CGM, the blood sugar response, they also looked at the gut microbiome, they looked at their blood markers, their activity levels, a lot of other factors, and this was the one where they found that-- and I'm bringing it up because she was mentioning-- We're talking about the glycemic index. Basically, it dismantled the idea of the glycemic index, because people had completely different responses to all different foods. So, while there was a trend, so when you put all the foods on a chart and see in general which ones create a higher glycemic response, it does match up with a glycemic index. There's still massive variability.  

Gin Stephens: Do you know how they came up with the glycemic index? They tested 10 people from, the food and averaged it. That is like, it's ridiculous. It is ri-diculous. Yeah, the glycemic index is just-- it would be like if we gave everyone a height index and said, "All right, you are 5'5" because that's the average height for a woman, 5'5". So, you're 5'5". You'd be like, "But I'm not 5'5", I'm 5'2." They're like, "I'm sorry, but we averaged the height together. You are 5'5"." That is how they did the glycemic index. Everyone's 5'5". 

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny. Yeah, and so they did find that within the individual, people react similarly. So, if you have a piece of bread on one day and then piece of bread on another day, you're probably going to react the same, but another person might react completely differently to bread. Actually, I think there was some comment in the study about how every single food, I think, had almost the entire span of responses. So, I mean, that's--  

Gin Stephens: It really is astonishing. For example, ice cream was one of the foods they talked about. They said that some people reacted really poorly to ice cream, some reacted really well. You're like, "Well, that sounds nuts." I am someone who reacts really well to ice cream and I can eat ice cream and feel great. I can open my window with ice cream. Ice cream does not give me a weird, whatever. Cake, different. Totally different. But it's fascinating. I can eat bread, no problem. But cookies? No. So, it really is just different. 

Melanie Avalon: And it likely involves-- like they say in this study, it's so many factors, not just the food.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Potatoes, they are great for my body. I can eat a potato and feel perfect. But not everybody can.  

Melanie Avalon: That's just something to keep in mind.  

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Rebecca. The subject is: "Eating red meat regularly." "Hi, Gin and Melanie. First, I just want to quickly say that I cannot thank you both enough for completely changing my life. I've been IFing for two years, and it has improved my life in so many ways. Not only did I lose 67 pounds, but I've also seen major improvements in my mental health, my relationship with food, and my body, and the chronic pain I have from a previous injury. So, I just want you to know that you ladies are truly helping people and making a difference in so many lives by putting this important information out in the world. You two are amazing and I will be forever grateful." Oh, thank you, Rebecca. 67 pounds that is amazing. 

"All right. Okay, on to my question. As you know, there is a pretty widespread stigma against red meat. Most people or doctors think it is detrimental to your health and should not be eating frequently. They say, it will cause cancer, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc. So, of course, these scary thoughts are always in the back of my mind. I now exclusively get all my meat from ButcherBox. Thank you for the rec, by the way. So, I know the meat I am consuming is high quality. Over the past year, my beef consumption has significantly increased to the point that it has become a staple in my diet. I eat mainly whole foods and try to focus on fruits, vegetables, and meats but I don't restrict any particular food or food group. However, I find myself no longer gravitating towards chicken or fish, never really was a fan of pork, which means that pretty much all of the meat I consume is now ButcherBox beef. I'm definitely eating at least a few servings of red meat five to six days of the week.  

Is this really bad for my health? Should I start to force myself to eat different types of protein even though, it's not really what I want or crave? I've tried googling whether this is okay and pretty much everything that comes up says no. But the articles are almost always referring to conventionally farmed or processed red meat. I know there are tons of studies that show eating lots of red meat and processed meat can cause a variety of health issues. But what about grass-fed, grass-finished beef? Are there the same increased health risks from eating that too? I feel good doing what I'm doing but I would change it if it meant that I was harming my body. What do you think about this topic? I'd love to hear your thoughts because I really value your input. Sending positive vibes your way. Rebecca." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Rebecca. Well, this was a fantastic question and I'm so happy that you're enjoying ButcherBox and I promise I did not plan this. ButcherBox is actually a sponsor on this episode and I just checked the offer they have right now is for grass-fed, grass-finished steaks for free. So, that's perfect. If you want those, if you want to join Rebecca, listen to the ad in this episode for ButcherBox. The link is butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and that will give you the offer right now is free New York strip steaks for a year, which they've never actually done that before. So, that's huge and those are grass fed, grass finished, but again, details are in the ad that runs on this show. So, for your question, I have so many thoughts. I think about this so much. 

Gin Stephens: I knew that you would.  

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I will just put it out there. I do think it is very important when you are contemplating a topic, especially related to health, to take in all different perspectives on the topic. It's very easy to get into an echo chamber. That said, I think one of the issues that can make this convoluted and confusing for people is that the two sides to approach on this, if we want to look at warring sides, it would be the pro-meat and then it would be the anti-meat. One of the issues is I think there is especially in a lot of the vegan literature or vegan voices, there's a morality clause that comes in where I think sometimes things get lost in the practical science, the health implications that I think often lead to more of a bias. So, I think that's really important to keep in mind when you are reading all the different perspectives because I do think you should read all the different perspectives. 

All of that said, the best source of information I have found that I do not believe is biased that I think has been so helpful is Robb Wolf's book Sacred Cow. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. We recently had Robb on this show, but that was an episode all on electrolytes. I'll put a link to it anyways, but we didn't talk about this. But I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice. Actually, his second episode with me aired yesterday. But my first episode I did with him was all about this. So, I'll put a link to that as well. What I really liked about his book and what I learned in it is, he talks about the health benefits and the huge importance of the role of meat in our diets for health. I do think some people can thrive on a vegan diet. I think it's a very small percentage of people. It's the people who have the gut microbiome that can really handle that and can really create all the nutrition that they need. Most people's gut microbiomes aren't up to par for that and I don't know that dietary choices alone given your state can convert you to a microbiome that would long term subsist on that. So, basically, I do think nutrition wise that there's a huge important role for meat in most people's diets.  

When it comes down to the actual type of meat, red meat versus fish versus chicken, Robb actually talks about this in his book the environmental impacts. I know she wasn't really asked me about the environmental impacts but he does talk about the environmental impacts of these different animals and dismantles some of the myths surrounding that about what is actually more sustainable. I do a lot of research on the different meats and how they affect our body. I do think, though, Rebecca, what your intuition about gravitating to what you are craving or what speaks to you is probably really telling, and I think, especially if you're not following-- because I think when we follow a processed diet or standard American diet, it can be harder to discern what our bodies actually need. But when you follow a more whole foods based diet that it can be easier to really hear your body signals about which protein source your body needs at that time.  

I think, especially with red meat, it's something where people might need more of it at sometimes rather than other times. Especially women, they might be craving it because of the iron content and women often can become anemic. I mean men can too, but it's more common with women. If you're feeling good on the red meat and you're not craving chicken or fish, I wouldn't stress about it. I wouldn't try to convince yourself into eating not red meat, and chicken, and fish because you think that's what you "should" be eating. Especially, if you're eating this grass fed, grass finished, sustainably raised from ButcherBox that one of the things about ButcherBox is so amazing is they work really hard to support the sustainability and the health of the farmers, of the farming system, of our planet. It's just really, really wonderful what they're doing.  

All of that said, to make things a little bit more complicated, I personally believe there is an incredible benefit nutrition wise to grass fed, grass finished over conventional beef. That said, Robb Wolf makes the case in Sacred Cow that there's not much difference at all, that the nutrition is actually pretty similar and that there's not a huge difference there. I do wonder a lot about the role of toxins in conventional agriculture. I think that might be playing a big role.  

Gin Stephens: 100%, I agree with you. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really hesitant about that aspect of it. He doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal in the book, but I think it probably is. So, my takeaway is that the best of the best is obviously the grass-fed, grass-finished beef. I think it's giving you nutrition and I would not succumb to the pressure to think that you don't have to eat it or that you need to eat white meat instead. 

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting that he says that because I just read the part of the book for Clean(ish) where I talk about grass-fed, grass-finished beef and why it matters. I just read it yesterday, I think. Cows are not supposed to have grain. Their bodies are not designed to digest it, it makes them unhealthy. Then, they have to have all that medicine, because they're now sick from eating the grain. There's no part of that that is good, except that the beef tastes great. It's like fattier, but it's huge. I can't understand how he looked into all that and came to the conclusion that it didn't matter.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it was so much that it 100% didn't matter but it was like in the grand scheme of things just from a pure nutrition standpoint that there wasn't that much of a difference and I'd have to reread. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it does have a better-- I think, a more favorable omega profile? 

Melanie Avalon: That's something I've been saying historically, and I say it in my book, and I believe it. His thoughts on it are that it's not that big of a difference. If you're looking at it for omegas, it's not a huge difference, it's not a huge source comparatively to something like the fish side of things. 

Gin Stephens: I guess, the real issue really, really is that because the cows are sick, because they're not fed in a way that their bodies are meant to be eating, they're eating the grains, their stomach is not designed to process those grains, so they have to have all the medication, the antibiotics, and then that residue is in the meat. 

Melanie Avalon: That's what I'm very concerned about. Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I mean it's huge. That is a huge factor. Do we want to get antibiotic residues from our meat? No.  

Melanie Avalon: I personally think, it's huge.  

Gin Stephens: I do, too. I've really come across to this thinking. I didn't used to think it mattered as much till I really looked into it. The more I looked into it, the more I realized it mattered. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I asked him about this. I'm going to have to revisit the transcript and see what his response was to that specifically. That's why I just really, really love something like ButcherBox, for example because they're really addressing this issue. Also, I think, a lot of the demonization of meat is about things like saturated fat and stuff like that. I just want to put out there because I'm haunted by the saturated fat question, actually. I do think a huge part of the studies and the literature on saturated fat and its health benefits are two things. One, it's looking at saturated fat as an isolated mechanism of action rather than in the context of an entire diet. So, how does saturated fatty acids on a cell affect insulin sensitivity or how does fatty acid levels in the bloodstream affect things, and then saying that's automatically the same, it's like the saturated fat that you eat, there's also the whole history of why saturated fat became demonized for heart disease and things like that, and it goes back to Ancel Keys, and there's a lot of controversy around his research, and was there cherry picking? 

I think there's a lot of debate. I do think there are probably issues for a lot of people with saturated fat, especially too much saturated fat, especially today's-- Oh, that was it. I think saturated fat in the context of a processed diet, or a high carb diet, or a modern diet is a problem. But in a holistic, whole foods based diet, I think it's much less of a problem, if it even is a problem. So, I said a lot, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: You did say a lot. I was just going to say, Rebecca, trust yourself. I have also gravitated really away from chicken because I just realized I don't love it, or crave it, or really want it. But beef, when I want to eat beef, I really am-- Now, I'm craving it right now. I'm pretty sure there's going to be beef in my day today. [laughs] And after, I'm like, "Ooh, I just really need some beef." So, listen to your body. You're getting in tune with your body, and how you feel when you eat certain foods, and I think your body is boss. 

Melanie Avalon: A lot of this goes back to a study that was sensationalized in the media about the WHO's carcinogenic classification of various meats, and red meat, and processed meat. If you look at actually what was found in the study and the risk factors, it was grossly misinterpreted by the media. Because the headlines were things like, "Red meat is the same as smoking every day" or something like that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I remember those.  

Gin Stephens: It's just that's not what it found at all. Processed meat was a problem, red meat was like-- I have to look at it again. It was a higher level than the other meats but when you looked at the actual meaning of interpreting the stats in the data, it was not at all what it was made out to be. So, that is something to keep in mind. I think pretty sure Robb talks about that in Sacred Cow, pretty sure Gary talks about it in Case for Keto. I'll put links to all of that but that was a lot.  

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And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light. And this is my personal favorite update. For those of us who like to use do devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. 

If you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply, and this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Phoebe. The subject is "Clean beauty brands" and she says, "Hi, both. I have been listening to your podcast since March of 2020 at the beginning of lockdown. I feel I have learnt so much over the past year and a half." I love the word 'learnt.' It's very British. 

Melanie Avalon: Do we say learnt? 

Gin Stephens: We say learned. Learned. They say learnt. She said, "I have a question on clean beauty. Having heard both of your rave reviews about Beautycounter, I am desperate to use their products. However, I am based in London, England, and they don't have any stockists here, nor do they ship internationally. I know you've said that Europe has stricter rules on banning chemicals but a lot of the brands I have seen on sale in Whole Foods and similar health stores have compounds in them that are ranked poorly in the EWG Healthy Living app. Could you please recommend any comparable internationally available brands for beauty products and makeup? Thank you in advance for all you do. I look forward to your podcasts every week. Kind regards. Phoebe." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Phoebe. This is a great question. So, I will put a resource out for you. You can join my Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare Facebook group. That will be a great place to talk about this because we have a lot of members now. I think we have almost 2,000 members. People share a lot of reviews, and thoughts, and there are a lot of international people. So, that'd be a great place to discuss it there. Because I'm not personally familiar with any brands that are up to Beautycounter standard. It sounds like this is what you're doing already. You're looking things up on the EWG but that would be the resource to use for sure. So, for listeners, the EWG, they basically look at all of the ingredients and products and they rank them for toxicity so you can see how potentially toxic are your products on the shelves. 

The thing that is so amazing about Beautycounter, for example is, you can look at the toxicity. So, that's one thing. But then beyond that, there are things like heavy metals, for example, and that's huge, huge, huge to me, and that's not going to be something that's going to be on the EWG. Like lipstick, for example, there's this one study that they did, I think it was in the-- I don't know how long ago it was. It was a few years ago, but they looked at so many makeup brands. It was like hundred something and every single one had lead in it, and most of them had really high levels, and that's something that you're not even going to see on the EWG. So, an amazing thing about Beautycounter they test everything six times for heavy metals. So, that's huge. I don't know if there are any international brands that do that as well but your best bet, I guess would be continuing to look on the EWG and trying to find things that are that are rated green. I'm sorry though that Beatycounter is not available internationally. I'm hoping someday that they will. Right now, it's just the US and Canada. I feel like it was not very helpful. But yeah, my resources are to keep looking on the EWG, and to join my Facebook group, and ask there. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah, the EWG Healthy Living app is a great resource but I don't know about clean beauty brands in Europe either or England.  

Melanie Avalon: It is true though about the higher standard. It also just speaks to the sad state of the US with all this because Europe has banned thousands of compounds in conventional skincare and makeup because they can be endocrine disruptors, meaning they mess with your hormones or obesogens, which actually literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens which are linked to cancer, and the US has only been at around a dozen, which is just really shocking. Then on top of that, there's essentially no regulations. So, even if there were products on the shelves that were found to be actually toxic, and this has happened. It happened, I don't remember when, but there was this whole thing where there were these products at Claire's that were found to be tainted with I think-- it was asbestos tainted with something, and nothing was done about it. There's really no regulation. It's really shocking. But yes, Europe does have stricter standards. So, that is nice because that will be a little bit on your side. 

Gin Stephens: Yep, and all this is also in Clean(ish) which is available for preorder. So, [laughs] if you haven't preordered it yet, go ahead and preorder it wherever books are sold. But yeah, I talk all about clean beauty and why it's so important, and about grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and all the things. So, I can't wait for you to get a copy of the book, Melanie.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. Do I get one soon?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We've got to get you on the list. We've got to get you-- Yep, yep. We got to get you a copy. I would like you to get a better copy. Right now, they're sending out the early reader copies and it's the ones with the typos and stuff.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.  

Gin Stephens: Can you wait till actual the real book comes out or do you want an early reader copy? I could get you an early reader copy now. Not till February, right?  

Melanie Avalon: I think so.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you've got time.  

Melanie Avalon: Can I get it by January?  

Gin Stephens: Or, January 4th is when it comes out.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Perfect.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Yay, anyway, all this is in there and why it matters, and how you can develop your own definition of Clean(ish) so that you change up what feels right to you. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I feel like we've come so far. We're on similar wavelengths about all the things. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it's true. The more you learn about it, the better you feel. The more changes you make, you realize it matters. 

Melanie Avalon: The more I study hormones, I've been interviewing a lot of hormone doctors recently, those are just signals affecting everything in our body, and the factors that affect them, it's our environment and our lifestyle. I mean it's our food, obviously, and you can help them with fasting but when you're exposing your body to compounds every day that are messing with your hormones, I just think the effects are just so not appreciated. 

Gin Stephens: The part that was so striking to me is how different the world is now than it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, because basically, our body burdens are just so much greater. We didn't have all this decades ago. So, we're starting off with a worse-- babies are born with all these chemicals and their cord blood. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Ladies, if you're going to have children someday, when you give birth, a huge part of your toxic burden goes into the baby. I was actually listening to an interview this week, and they were talking about how one of the problems with these compounds is that the problem is actually that they're not so toxic that they outright cause cancer right away. If they did, they wouldn't be there. But they're not so toxic that they kill yourself right away, but it's that slow, accumulating damage. 

Gin Stephens: Right. They bioaccumulate and they also work together in ways that are unexpected and not even understood because they don't study these chemicals together. They studied a little bit in isolation, like if you just had this, and "Oh, it's fine." But that's not the real world, that's not your body. It ends up being a toxic soup. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so cancer-causing compounds, there are not things that are so toxic that they just kill a cell because if that was the case you wouldn't get the cancer. Because in a way, they would get rid of themselves, because they would just kill whatever they're killing and be gone, but the fact that our cells can still survive in their presence, it's like a slow draining, it forces ourselves to adapt. That's what when I interviewed Dr. Jason Fung. He was saying, that's what makes carcinogens carcinogens is that they damage the cells just enough that the cells have to go rogue and form their own metabolism, their own state. They get very selfish in a way. So, in order to survive in the face of these carcinogens, they have to just basically defy living in a happy relationship with the rest of your body cells, and that's basically what cancer is. That was such a mind-blowing moment for me. 

Gin Stephens: Wow. Yeah. But anyway, we put less in. So, clean beauty, you're putting less in, you are lowering your toxic load, and that is why it matters. You don't have to freak out because you're going to go through life and get exposed to things, but you can control a lot of things and just taking control of what you can and letting go of what you can't.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I love that. Yep. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can follow me on Instagram, have a blue check? 

Gin Stephens: I do not.  

Melanie Avalon: But you will probably soon, I'm assuming.  

Gin Stephens: I don’t know. I'm not even trying.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, in any case, we're both on Instagram. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show, super helpful because we mentioned so many things, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode241. Yeah, you can get all the stuff that we like and ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, I think that is all of the things.  

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.  

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, I think that was it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been wonderful and I will talk to you next week. 

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 14

Episode 239: Melanie’s Zoe Results, Burning Fat & Carbs, Blood Types, Personalized Nutrition, Low Insulin & High Glucose, Diabetes, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 239 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

4:00 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

28:00 - INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #117 - Tim Spector

38:55 - Listener Feedback: Apryl - Yay!

44:25 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

47:25 - Listener Q&A: Michele - Fasting insulin and fasting glucose

56:00 - Listener Q&A: John - Fasting

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 239 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get 50% off a product that has truly changed my life. Do you experience stress or anxiety or chronic pain? Do you have trouble sleeping at least once a week? If you do, trust me, you are not alone. I personally have explored so many avenues for how to have a healthy relationship with stress and finding the world of CBD oil has been absolutely incredible for that. After doing more and more research, I realized just how incredible the health benefits of CBD are. CBD regulates your cannabinoid system, like an adaptogen making you feel better naturally. It's not addictive. It's not a crutch. Basically, it's just helping your body function better when it comes to stress, anxiety, pain, and sleeplessness. I take it daily for my mood, and the effects are profound.  

In fact, I even got robbed last year and I went from crying with stress and anxiety to taking some Feals and laughing. I said to my mom, “Mom, see how effective this is.” Due to all of its health benefits, we knew we wanted to partner with a CBD company for the podcast, but I have very stringent criteria. You guys know this. So many brands approached us, and I kept just saying, “No,” because nothing fit all of my criteria. I wanted CBD oil that was full-spectrum, tested for purity, organic, made with MCT oil as the carrier and that I actually experienced benefits from, that's a pretty tall order to fill. We said no to a lot of brands and then Feals came along and it was meant to be. I personally tried it out and started seeing massive effects on my sleep and stress. Feals is so easy to take. You can just put a few drops under your tongue and you'll feel the difference within minutes. I truly do feel it within minutes.  

Of course, it is important to remember that CBD works differently for everybody based on your own unique cannabinoid system. You might need to work to find your perfect dose. Experiment over the course of a week or so, and you may find that you need more or less depending on the effects that you're looking for. I'm also super grateful because they have an incredible offer for our audience. You can start feeling better with Feals. Become a member today, by going to feals.com/ifpodcast and you'll get 50% off your first order with free shipping. That's F-E-A-L-S dotcom slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T to become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping, feals.com/ifpodcast. When you get that offer, you'll be joining the Feals community and you'll get Feals delivered directly to your doorstep every month. You'll save money on every order. Of course, you can pause or cancel anytime. Definitely try it out for the first month with our code for 50% off and see how it works for you. We'll put all this information in the show notes. One more thing before you jump in.  

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for leads, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 239 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited because our screened porch furniture came this week. Now, I can actually sit on the screen porch. We've been eating dinner out there every night. I'm so happy. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. 

Gin Stephens: I know. It's a lot of porch. It's a big, big porch. So, [laughs] yeah, the furniture didn't go in like I thought it would. It looks way better than I thought it would, because of the way that we tweaked it, and I ordered a couple of rugs today, because it needs to be warmed up a little bit, but it is so cute out there. Ellie loves it. My cat Ellie, can I just tell you. The first night we always watch TV in the den which is right next to this room which Chad and I do before bed. Ellie sits or she might be outside. Ellie's in different places, but sometimes, she's outside, sometimes she's with us. But we always go to bed and I'm like, "All right, Ellie, time to go to bed."  

The first night we were out on the screen porch watching TV before bed with Ellie and then Ringo was out there, too. There's a cat flap on the door, the screen doors, they can go in and out. But Ellie was out and like she didn't know how to use it. So, we're like, "Okay, no problem." But when it was time to go to bed, I'm like, "All right, Ellie time to go to bed." So, we get up to go in the house, and you could tell-- She has got so much personality. She was like-- if she was a person, she would have said, "I don't want to." [laughs] She hid under the sofa, and then, I got her out, and she was running, and she ran under the table, and she wouldn't come out. So, finally, I got her and I took her inside. I was like, "All right, we're going to bed now."  

She did not go to bed. She ran outside through the other cat door. So, all right, whatever. She's mad now. The next morning, I woke up, she was on the screen porch. She had figured out how to use that because that cat flaps a little different. She had figured it out. She was like being super naughty and belligerent, and she's like, "You can't stop me. I'm going to sleep on the screen porch." [laughs] So, just a few minutes ago I was out there. She came in with a lizard. It was like old times. She ran right in with her little lizard, and dropped it at my feet, and start making that little noise she makes. So, she has claimed the screened porch. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that sounds like a very southern thing, the screen porch. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it is, because it's just-- so much of the year, you can go out there. Of course, you know, here we are. We're recording this end of October. It comes out in November, but it's still warm enough to go out there. But I wish we finished it just a month ago instead of. You know what, I've had more time to enjoy it because there will be December, January. There'll be some days I can use it, but I won't get as much use out of it as I will in like spring.  

Melanie Avalon: Will you guys put a fire pit or anything like that? 

Gin Stephens: I don't think we're going to. We've thought about that, but we've got a couple inside fireplaces in. I don't know. What we're thinking about it, maybe on the deck but I don't know, outside. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, very nice. 

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. It's only been like a year ago that we had the plans drawn. So, it was a yearlong process. We're still not finished. It's taking forever like gutters need to be put on. We don't know why the gutter people haven't come. The electrician needs to finish a few things. Landscaping, oh, Lord, it's going to be another year before all the landscaping is done. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I want to see pictures when it's all done.  

Gin Stephens: All right. I have one picture on Instagram of a little table that we have out there.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Take a look at that.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to look. I think I did see that pop up. Oh, that looks like indoors.  

Gin Stephens: I know. That's outdoors, though.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. I love it. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's very much like a-- here in the south, a screen porch is really very much three seasons. I can put on my Uggs and wrap up in a blanket and be out there on the warmer days. Probably, January, February, not as much, but-- 

Melanie Avalon: Very nice.  

Gin Stephens: What's up with you?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, we said, last week that we would discuss my ZOE results. 

Gin Stephens: I know and I've been waiting. I'm so excited about that.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think we ever talked about yours.  

Gin Stephens: I think we did. I said that I cleared fat slowly and I cleared glucose slowly.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you were slow on both of them?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I wasn't surprised that I cleared fat slowly. But I was a little more surprised about the glucose. 

Melanie Avalon: Were you like in the yellow, or the red, or was it really bad, or--? 

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. I don't remember that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I don't think we talked about it that granularly. So, mine was exactly what I thought it was going to be. I clear fat really well, like almost excellent. 

Gin Stephens: See, yeah. I'm not surprised about that. Now, you clear glucose slowly, do you? 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, I was so close. Fat, I was almost in the excellent category, and then for blood sugar, the four levels are bad or good and excellent, and it gives you an actual number. So, for blood sugar, I'm 35 which is poor. Good starts at-- It shows you like the average population and then it shows like what you are. So, the lowest of the low for the average population is 46. So, I'm below the average. I feel like I've said all along. I feel like I don't handle blood sugar very well. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. I just pulled up my report. So, I'm going to look at mine. Tell me, again, what was your blood sugar control?  

Melanie Avalon: My blood sugar was 35.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, mine was worse than yours. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what was yours?  

Gin Stephens: 23. And I'm not surprised because I can remember when I was a little girl, I didn't eat a lot of sweets and sugar because I could feel it make my blood sugar crash. This is when I was young. I never really ate a lot of sweets, I didn't really like it. I could feel, it made my blood sugar crash. So, I was always the salty snack kind of person versus the sweet snack kind of person. So, yeah, my blood sugar control is worse than yours. What was your blood fat? 

Melanie Avalon: Is that in the bad category? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. I was right at the threshold of poor and bad. Yeah, it's in the bad but close to poor, but bad. What was your fat? 

Melanie Avalon: My poor, by the way, is dead smack in the middle of poor.  

Gin Stephens: Smack in the middle of poor. What was your fat? 

Melanie Avalon: 73. 

Gin Stephens: Mine was 46. So, it wasn't as bad. Mine's in the poor. So, the blood fat wasn't as bad.  

Melanie Avalon: Very cool. Yeah. Mine's, I'm so close. It's almost in the excellent. You know, that's really what I thought it was going to be something like that. I also think it's pretty telling because so clearly, I don't have good blood glucose or blood sugar control, but my fasting blood sugars are always good, my A1C is always good. So, I think that's pretty telling that the dietary approach that I'm doing with intermittent fasting and very high carb fruit, but low fat is working well.  

Gin Stephens: That's true, too, for me because I--, same exact thing. My test results are always fine. Interestingly, personalized nutrition, we know that the form that something's in makes a difference, I know, we tested the muffin. Muffin is what we used for the test. I know that things like muffins, and cookies, and cake, I know that, that makes me crash worse than if I have ice cream. So, I would have predicted that baked goods would make me crash sooner if that makes sense. But I guess that the ice cream is also high fat. When I had the fat, that's the variable. So, now, I'm thinking about I don't know how they would test that because I guess, maybe, if I had like a low fat ice cream, that would be interesting to test. 

Melanie Avalon: I would love to test just like the same amount of-- I mean, but it would be a huge volume. But the same amount of calories, and fat, and carbs, but from whole foods that would be from the type of foods I normally eat. But I know for me personally, eating the same amount of carbs from fruit, I tolerate really well. But if I eat that from starches or definitely processed foods, major spikes there. 

Gin Stephens: I see that's so interesting. My body responds fabulously to potatoes and starchy like whole grain kind of things. But not as well to fruit. Fruit makes me crash more so. It's very interesting and I've never been a big fruit eater. People have actually said that like back when I was on Facebook and posting my meals all the time, they're like, "I never see you eat fruit." I'm like. "I never do." [laughs] Sometimes, I'll have strawberries and blackberries when they're really in season and they look great in the grocery store. But I don't eat apples. I don't buy fruit and eat fruit.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm all about the fruit. I feel like I should-- well, I was going to say I should start a dietary approach, but it really is sort of the way Peat approach already, but a lot of people have come to me actually, people who have been doing carnivore or low carb, but pretty meat heavy, and doing a paradigm shift where they go low fat, but keeping all of that meat, but just make it lean and add in the fruit, because that's what I do basically. I've had quite a few people come to me and say, they want to experiment with that, and they're super nervous, but it's gone really well for all of them.  

Gin Stephens: So,  low fat, low carb, high protein. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, basically keeping in the aspect of a carnivore low carb diet, that's high in the protein and high in the meat, but just replacing the fat aspect of that with fruit.  

Gin Stephens: High carb, high protein, low fat. All right, I'm done just trying to wrap my head around it. I was trying to compare it to what it might be out there. I was thinking of the Dukan diet, but Dukan is not- 

Melanie Avalon: It's Peat.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Dukan is low fat, low carb, just high protein. Yeah, that's how it's different from that. I was trying to remember but yeah, it's definitely not the same as Dukan. I felt so bad on Dukan. That was the worst I ever felt ever. 

Melanie Avalon: It's basically what I did for a few years. 

Gin Stephens: You felt good on that?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: I've never felt worse. I only made it like a very short time on that. It was because it was like low fat, low carb, high protein and I just was like, I felt that I was going to die. [laughs] I didn't last very long at all. 

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, so Maria Emmerich, do you know her? 

Gin Stephens: I know who she is. Yep, she's a keto person. She writes cookbooks, too, right? She's got a lot of cookbooks.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, her thing is the whole Protein Sparing Modified Fast, PSMF. But she just focuses on the protein sparing part and there's no calorie restriction at all. So, she advocates basically Dukan Diet days. Basically, days of really high protein, low fat, low carb. She had a webinar thing recently. It was an in person and a webinar. I have the playback and I'm watching it right now, because I'm prepping the show, and you've got to watch this. It's her and her husband, and they talk about everything we talked about. So, well, with slides and her husband, I think is some sort of, I don't know, if he's like an engineer. He's in that world. But literally everything we talked about, like chasing ketones, and the role of fat, but something he pointed out that had never occurred to me and I seriously just need to take a course, and I'm like, I don't know, metabolism. What would that be? Biochemistry?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't really know. Chad would know. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He pointed out something that never occurred to me. The reason we enter ketosis is not because we can't burn carbs. Do you know why?  

Gin Stephens: Why?  

Melanie Avalon: It's because we can't burn fat. This blew my mind.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, wait a minute. We can't burn fat, but does he mean that we can't be fueled by fat?  

Melanie Avalon: No, we can't burn fat. So, burning fat requires pyruvate. Pyruvate is created from carbs. When we don't have carbs, we can't form-- is it pyruvate or- 

Gin Stephens: I don't know. But wait, we do burn fat. So, now I'm confused. I just don't understand what he means by, you can't burn fat. He's not saying our bodies are incapable of burning fat ever.  

Melanie Avalon: -okay oxaloacetate. Okay. So, the thing he said that blew my mind is, he said, "The reason we enter ketosis is not because we can't burn carbs, it's because we can't burn fat."  

Gin Stephens: But we can burn fat though. We do burn fat. I don't know. What do you mean by can't burn fat? Can't burn fat, so, we have to go into ketosis to allow us to burn fat? He's not saying, we don't burn fat from our bodies, is he? 

Melanie Avalon: When we're not in ketosis, we're burning fat in the Krebs cycle. To burn fat, it requires oxaloacetate which is made from glucose. So, when we run out of carbs or glucose, we can't make oxaloacetate, we can't burn fat in the Krebs cycle. So, the body has to instead switch into a ketogenic state, send fat to the liver, generate ketones, and also, it can break down fat for glycerol in the liver. So, that just blows my mind. Literally, the switch like, "Oh, making ketones. It's not because we ran out of carbs. It's because we can no longer burn fat without carbs."  

Gin Stephens: Okay. The liver has to basically once it depletes the glycogen, then the fat comes in and we make the ketones out of that in the liver. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But the reasoning-- that just blows my mind. The reasoning is because we can't burn fat is the reason we start burning ketones, not carbs. Mind blown. Mind blown. 

Gin Stephens: I guess I'm trying to understand the definition of can't burn fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Literally, can't. So, to burn fat in the Krebs cycle it requires oxaloacetate from glucose. So, literally cannot burn fat. Don't have the substrate to burn it. 

Gin Stephens: We have to convert it. When we say that we flipped the metabolic switch, we're not getting into deeper fat burning. We're getting into fat conversion. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess it's like trying to think of analogy. 

Gin Stephens: I know. That's more than I want to go. [laughs] That's a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: When we're not in ketosis, we're burning fat a certain way and the way we burn it, it requires carbs. It's like they always say fat burns in the flame of carbs. It's because it actually does require carbs to burn fat in the normal functioning state if you're not in ketosis. So, then when you run out of carbs, your body's like, "Oh, we can't burn fat anymore. This is a problem. What are we going to do?" So, it starts a whole different process. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. You just wouldn't call the process of turning fat into ketones burning fat. It's converting fat and you're using the fat to convert it into ketones. But technically that's not "burning the fat." It's just the technical wording is what it sounds like to me.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, in a way you are, but I'm saying before that happens. So, like the in between. The moment we start a new way of fat burning with ketosis is because we temporarily can't burn fat without carbs. So, it's like switching the way that we're burning fat. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm just going to keep calling it flipping the metabolic switch like Mark Mattson says. [laughs] That's my favorite way of referring to. It's we're flipping the metabolic switch, so our body is using fat for fuel through the ketosis process. That still works. We can still say that because that's still true. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's a good clarification. I think the misconception that's out there is that while we have carbs, we're burning carbs, and we're not burning fat, and then we run out of carbs and it's like, "Okay, well now we've got to just burn fat, so we start ketosis." But actually, when we're burning carbs, we're also burning fat, and then it's when we run out of carbs that we can't burn fat for the long term, so then we switch to ketosis. 

Gin Stephens: Basically, my takeaway is, there's a lot going on. So, I don't think we need to really worry about what's going on Fast. Feast. Repeat. and it'll happen. That's my take. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I literally wrote in all caps, 'MIND BLOWN, TALK ABOUT.' That's the note I wrote. 

Gin Stephens: Well, cool. I'm glad. I'm just like, "Yeah." [laughs] Look, the teacher in me loves that you want to know all that. Does that make sense?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: Then I'm just like, "All right--." I tuned out when my teacher was talking about the Krebs cycle in biology.  

Melanie Avalon: I might take a course in all my free time or get a book.  

Gin Stephens: Keep in mind, I taught elementary school. So, my mind really loves elementary level science. Understanding it at the basic just-- Think about the greatest hits, right? You know, how you learned the greatest hits of every artist, like a lot of things but you're not like, you don't know everything there is to know about Taylor Swift? You know everything there is to know about Taylor Swift. You're the deep diver. I'm the greatest hits. There's the difference. 

Melanie Avalon: You know why that's an even better analogy, because if you just hear the greatest hits from an artist, there could be like not misconceptions, but you could have like a certain-- because I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm saying like you could have a view that's correct but is not actually quite as nuanced as-- 

Gin Stephens: The very best example of that is the Grateful Dead. I went to a Grateful Dead concert with Will a few years ago in Atlanta and I was like, "Where's Sugar Magnolia, where's Uncle John's band, what are they playing?" [giggles] Because I had the Grateful Dead Greatest Hits, if that is not what they played. So, I get it. I was like, "I do not like the Grateful Dead at a concert. It was not my jam." But Will was like, "This is amazing," and it was actually dead in company. I think, they call it now and it was with John Mayer, and Will is so excited, but I was, "This is terrible. What's happening?" Anyway, I just want to hear Sugar Magnolia. Anyway, I wanted to circle back to something from before. What is your blood type?  

Melanie Avalon: Oh.  

Gin Stephens: I knew it was, oh. I was going to say, "Oh, let me tell you why, now." Here's a caveat. I do not believe it is as simple as blood type. But did you ever read The Blood Type Diet 

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: And my friend, who did great on the Dukan Diet and he loved it. She was type O. I am type A. So, I do not believe everyone should go out and read The Blood Type Diet and follow it, because I tried to follow it. It never-- what he said to eat for 'A' didn't quite feel right to me. Then, if you read his later books, it gets even little more convoluted. He's like, "Well, it's not your blood type. It's like whether you're this or genotype or whatever," and then I was trying to figure that out. Then, it directly contradicted what he said earlier, and then I was so confused. I was like, "Never mind."  

But that really was the first time I ever-- I say the first time, I heard about personalized nutrition was 2017, but actually, it was when I read The Blood Type Diet, the whole idea that we are different when it comes to what foods might work for us. So, there's that whole genetic factor or whatever. So, I don't think it's as simple as blood type, and I don't think he ever really proved his concept sufficiently for me to be like, "Yeah, that's it." But I was predicting you were type O. 

Melanie Avalon: My theory with that is-- and this is not a comprehensive theory. But one of my thoughts about what might be going on is, he says that blood type O naturally correlate to higher HCl levels. I think that probably plays a big role in the high protein intake.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense. Because your body is better able to break it down.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like having just a naturally more carnivorous gut in a way. The thing about his work is very fascinating. But he mentions all of these studies and these tests and like I don't know where they are. I think they're all of his own work, you know?  

Gin Stephens: And his dad even. I think his dad started the-- I don't know. It's been years since I read it.  

Melanie Avalon: I wish they were published or something because you have to just take his word at it. 

Gin Stephens: Then when if you read his later work, did you read his later work or you started going into like, whether you're the farmer, or the teacher, or the warrior, or whatever, genotype stuff that and you could get this test and that test, and then I was like, "Wait, whether you're secreter or non-secreter." I'm like, "This is way too complicated. Forget it." He lost me. [laughs] You know, everything was so contradictory, that also confused me. But I do think, we're different. Blood type is definitely related to genetics, right? You know certain populations, so it takes you back to the part that we've got genetic differences, which I do think is the solid foundation of that theory of his. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Just his catalog is so specific and granular. 

Gin Stephens: It's like this really specific food. Eight navy beans, don't eat lima beans. I'm like, "What? Right." [laughs] Yeah, eat almond butter, not peanut butter. It was kind of like that. I can't remember what it was. But I know that overall, 'A' was supposed to thrive on-- in general, you would describe it as 'A.' 

Melanie Avalon: Was it agrarian or agriculture?  

Gin Stephens: Kind of vegetarian-ish with less meat, but some meat. That is really how I eat and 'O' was more like protein and meat. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it did-- It did line up with me pretty well, which was interesting. I wonder if he goes on shows. I should try to get him on the show. 

Gin Stephens: That would be interesting. He's an interesting guy. So, I don't think that everything he says is completely wrong. But I don't think it's quite as simple as just blood type. We know it's not because the work that Tim Spector's doing, we know that a lot of it is your gut. We're so complicated that whenever we try to drill down to just like one little thing, we're a lot more complicated than that. 

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Melanie Avalon: How was your gut microbiome result from it? 

Gin Stephens: I don't have that report of-- I had some good stuff and some not as good stuff. It wasn't bad. It wasn't terrible. 

Melanie Avalon: Mine was, let me pull it up. Mine was pretty much where I thought it wasn't that good.  

Gin Stephens: It wasn't?  

Melanie Avalon: No. 

Gin Stephens: Let's see if-- I don't know if I can find it quickly or not.  

Melanie Avalon: Because they test 30 different strains. I'm dying to know like, people who follow a carnivore diet, and don't perceive having any gut issues and feel really good, I'd be really curious what they look like on these panels. I wonder if this panel is something that is--, I don't know I'd be curious like vegan versus carnivore. So, I only had three of the good ones and I had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven of the bad ones. So, less than ideal. 

Gin Stephens: I'm looking at it sideways. It's hard to say. I've got more than three of the good ones. One, two, three, four, five. I've got like, most-- I've got a lot of good ones.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: I have a lot of [unintelligible [00:30:56]. How's your [unintelligible [00:30:57]? 

Melanie Avalon: I don't have [unintelligible [00:30:59]. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. It's one of the good ones. I've got 9%. It's fecal bacterium [unintelligible [00:31:07]. I'm reading it sideways. Oh, listen to this. It says it's associated with higher polyunsaturated fat levels and lower levels of insulin. Well, we know I have low levels of insulin. I have 9.3% and normal is 7%.  

Melanie Avalon: You can see just all the good and bads. Can you see how many goods you have and how many bads? 

Gin Stephens: I think my report might be different than yours because I did it so long ago. I don't see that information.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have an overview of the 30.  

Gin Stephens: Listen, I have a lot of Oscar too, which is Oscillibacter whatever and it's associated with higher insulin sensitivity and lower levels of insulin. So, again, the ones that are associated with higher levels of insulin sensitivity and lower levels of insulin, I seem to have a lot of those or more of those.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I have Veronica with higher insulin sensitivity and lower inflammation, Violet higher insulin sensitivity and lower insulin, and Valentina, I have all Vs, higher polyunsaturated fat levels and lower inflammation. That's so interesting, all the inflammation ones. The other ones-- wow, wait, that's really interesting. 

Gin Stephens: So, you've got really low inflammation according to your gut. 

Melanie Avalon: I have the ones for inflammation. 

Gin Stephens: Then the bad ones, I've got some good on the bad ones too. The one that's associated with less favorable fat profile, I have a good ratio of those. I have fewer of those. I get green because I have fewer of them in the bad bugs. I don't have a lot of bad bugs at all. I'm really good on not having the bad ones. That's good.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting.  

Gin Stephens: It is so interesting. You know your gut changes, so that's good. How about the beneficial parasite Blastocystis? 

Melanie Avalon: Blastocystis hominis? 

Gin Stephens: I was negative for that one. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I have that. Let me find that. 

Gin Stephens: It's supposed to be good for you. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't have it. 

Gin Stephens: And they said it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just one part of a very complex system, so that's good. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't have it. Yes. So, for listeners, if they are interested, we didn't even say what it was. We kind of just assumed-- 

Gin Stephens: Well, people have been listening. They know. Oh, I just got a crick in my neck because I was turned my head sideways because the report was like sideways. So, now I've got like a crick in my neck. I need somebody to rub my neck. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin, last night, I went to-- I love massages and I went to the massage parlor that I always go to and normally they just do like a Swedish massage, the normal thing. But this woman, I don't know, she went straight-up Thai. The whole walking on top of me. I was like, "What is happening?" You know, where they hold on to the bars and then they walk on you? 

Gin Stephens: No, I've never had a massage therapist that did that.  

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "What is happening?" Then she started pulling out these tools and she was like, "I'm going to do these things." I was like, "Okay." Then, she started doing cupping which is fine, but my whole back looks I don't know, it still looks like really scary. I hope it goes away.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, no, I have a massage therapist that I go to. I'm very like, I'll find somebody and that's who I go to forever until something happens to them. So, I have a girl. Her name is Ginny and she's amazing and I go-- I go every four weeks. I just make my appointment. I used to go every six weeks, now I go every four weeks.  

Melanie Avalon: I probably go four days a week.  

Gin Stephens: Really to get a massage? 

Melanie Avalon: To get a chair massage, a 15 or 20-minute one, and then there's like hour long massage. I probably go once a month. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I go once a month. I do 90 minutes once a month. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, she was saying, she was like, "Next time you should come for 90 minutes," and I'm like, "Mm, I'm not--" [laughs] No, I'm not going.  

Gin Stephens: But I just really liked the girl that I go to. She's fabulous. I just started going to her over the pandemic. I lost the person I had been going to, anyway long story. She was no longer available. So, I had to find to somebody new. My hairstylist recommended, you want to know somebody good, ask your hairstylist, because they know who's good.  

Melanie Avalon: But yes. So, ZOE. I don't remember why we were talking about that. Oh, you've got a crick in your neck.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I have a crick in my neck. I'm not going to your girl.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. No, I was scared. I was like, "Oh my goodness, what if I--" I was like [unintelligible [00:35:17], "I wonder how many people have died during massage." Like somebody walking on them, and then accidentally stepping on their neck or something. 

Gin Stephens: Crushing them?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, that sounds like a bad idea. I'm not down for that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not. She gave me her number and her name. She's like, "You know, next time, you can come back?" I'm like, "Okay." I'm not going to do that. So, ZOE for listeners, is a very super cool program created by Tim Spector, who wrote Spoon-Fed and The Diet Myth, oh, which, by the way, my episode with him airs. While we're recording it, it airs this Friday. So, it will have come outs. If listeners would like to listen to my interview with Tim, which was incredible and amazing. We dive deep into the gut microbiome. We talked a lot about the ZOE program. I was really excited because I talked about this before on the show, but he was very open and transparent about how the way it's set up right now.  

Gin Stephens: It's not perfected yet, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. People are doing low carb diets, for example, because of the temporarily--, is it called physiological insulin resistance? So, basically, when you're on a low carb diet, your body becomes a little bit insulin resistant if you are exposed to carbs, because it wants to basically save those carbs for the brain. So, the muscles become a little bit insulin resistant. It's transient, and it's temporary, and it's not-- it's benign, and it reverses really quickly. But the way to reverse it is to basically reintroduce carbs. So, he was saying that, they've even been wondering, should they have some accommodation for that for people who do the muffins after coming from a low carb diet? 

Gin Stephens: Oh, good point. Yeah, that makes sense. Isn't he brilliant? He's a brilliant man. 

Melanie Avalon: Because I asked him that. I was like, "What about people on low carb diets?" He was saying, "They're thinking about that," and he was saying in the future, "They might--" Oh, he's saying also like, "What they have a version of it that is low carb, basically." Oh and I asked my question that I had which was people who get bad fat clearance scores, might it actually be possible that they actually would do well on a low carb diet, which might be higher fat. Anyways, we talked about all of that. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But he created this program. If you've signed up for the CGM arm of it, you get a CGM, you eat these muffins, it measures your blood and fat clearance, like Gin and I just talked about, you do a gut microbiome test, which Gin and I just talked about. It is very, very cool. So, we'll put links in the show notes to it. 

Gin Stephens: Awesome. So, that was a lot. [laughs] But also interesting. Oh, we have some feedback.  

Melanie Avalon: We have some feedback from April, and the subject is "Yay." April says, "I'm so excited. I'm listening to Episode 216 and you answered my question on a morning window. Thank you and I have an update on it. I've been fasting now for a while and I'd say I have adjusted and I'm fat adapted. I was feeling really good in my morning window. I almost hit my goal and was starting to incorporate some ADF to try and push through to it. I was getting comments about how good I looked and how much younger I looked. But my husband was not liking me not eating with the family at dinnertime since that's when he's home, and that's our only family meal together. So, I again moved to a later window and started gaining weight and felt horrible. I wonder if this is part of why fasting doesn't "work for some people."  

Because if I had only ever tried a later window, I would definitely say fasting doesn't work for me. I know you always say you will never stop fasting, but if I only knew the later window, I certainly would not want to continue fasting. Anyway, as a compromise, I sometimes eat dinner with the family and just do a shorter fast that day, and sometimes have my morning eating window. That's working for now. Thanks again, April." 

Gin Stephens: It really illustrates that there is no one size fits all. When people ask me, "What's the best window?" I can't tell you. I can only tell you what window works well for me. What makes me feel the best, like Melanie and I were talking before we started recording, my aunt recently died. She was 94. She had a good life. She really did have a great life and I got to see her the week before she died, and connect with her, so that was nice. But we were at the funeral yesterday and it was a southern church funeral. Anybody who [laughs] has been to a southern church funeral, all the people of the church brought just amazing food. Like fresh corn from-- Amazing. So, I opened my window at noon.  

Then, I had a second meal at my sister's, we had chili. So, I ate twice. I was so full, and tired, and sluggish all afternoon, and then I realized I only had a seven-and-a-half-hour window. It felt like such a long drawn out window to me. So, I feel better when I have an afternoon/evening eating window with one real meal in it. But that doesn't mean that everybody will. Like Melanie, you feel better with a late-night window. I would not feel good with a late-night window.  

So, April, I love that you figured out that a morning window is really where you feel the best. Everyone who feels like, they can't find their ideal fasting time and eating time, tweak it till it feels good. That really is the key. April's body let her know that it didn't feel good when she tried to have the evening eating window. I love that that she figured it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, we're talking about ZOE. The feeling I had-- because for me, if I were to do earlier eating window and then have to fast after it's so miserable for me.  

Gin Stephens: Me too.  

Melanie Avalon: I had that thought while doing ZOE because you have to-- with the muffins, you've to eat one muffin, then you've to fast four hours, and then you've to eat another muffin, then you've to fast two hours. I just remember thinking like, "This is the hardest thing I've ever done." I fast every day for almost probably 20 hours, but fasting especially after having eaten something like this only muffin, but I was like, "Wow, this is "me trying to fast," and this is so hard." I was just thinking if this was my only experience with something that I perceived as "fasting," I'd be like, "This is the hardest thing ever. I can't do this." It would be the same reaction that April had.  

Gin Stephens: Whenever I tried to have an early window like I would be fine. I would feel more sluggish, then I'd be fine. But then by the time 8 PM rolls around, I'm like starving, starving and miserable and have to eat. If I ate a really big meal at 9 AM, I'd be fine for a while. I wouldn't feel my best throughout the day, but I'd be okay. But then later, I would be so hungry, I would eat again. So, that would be that. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: The weird thing for me is like, I have to eat to fall asleep. Yeah, I do not sleep well on an empty stomach. 

Gin Stephens: But I love what April said. She said, "I wonder if this is part of why fasting doesn't quite work for some people." Yeah, I have a feeling that if someone feels like it doesn't work, it's because they haven't found the plan that feels right to them yet.  

Melanie Avalon: I agree.  

Gin Stephens: 90% of the time when someone tells me, "Fasting didn't work," I say, "What did you drink?" [laughs] during their fast and they tell me-- There's somebody local that is at this store that Chad I go to, and we went back in there the other day and she's like, "Hey, I tried that fasting thing and it didn't work for me." I'm like, "All right, well, first of all, how long did you give it?" She said, "One week." I'm like, "Well, okay, that wasn't really very long." I said, "What were you drinking?" She's like, "Well, I like to put sugar free creamer in my coffee." I'm like, "Well, okay, let's examine this." I said, "Did you by any chance get my book and read it?" She's like, "No." I'm like, "Well, I would start there. Try that." You got to understand the clean fast and she's very open to it. We had a great conversation, but she was not fast and clean, and she gave herself a week, and she felt terrible. But as I would predict that if you're drinking coffee with sugar free creamer for a week, you're going to feel awful. Oh, anyway, that was good feedback. Thank you, April.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, April. 

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin. And I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy, pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology, and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use.  

Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there. And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices and they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick, easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light.  

And this is my personal favorite update. So, for those of us who like to use Joovv devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game-changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply. And this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Michelle, and the subject is "fasting insulin and fasting glucose." She says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie. I love listening to your podcast. Thank you for all you do. My question is about insulin and glucose. I've been doing IF for one and a half years now and I love it. I've always had high blood sugar since as long as I can remember. I was hoping that IF would help me with that, but it's still high. I just got bloodwork done last week and my fasting insulin was great. It was three, but my fasting blood glucose was 130 and my HbA1c was 6.3, which is what it's always been close to.  

I'm just confused as to why my fasting insulin was so good, but my blood glucose in HbA1c were still so high. I try to eat low carb, but lately I would say I'm eating a moderate carb diet. I probably should eat low carb. I just don't like feeling restricted and I work out a lot. So, I justify being able to eat some carbs. Also, I find that when I have a few alcoholic drinks, I crave carbs like crazy, it's really strange. Thank you for your help," Michelle. I want to throw in there. Yeah, if I have too much alcohol, I start eating just everything that's around. It lowers my inhibitions to all food. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it can lower inhibitions and then it can also drop blood sugar. So, then you're craving carbs-- This is a great question from Michelle. I'm not prescribing this as this is what Michelle has. But this profile of low insulin, high blood sugar, high HbA1c, that's like type 2 diabetes realm. Because that's not having enough insulin to deal with carbs and always having high blood sugar and high HbA1c. 

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was thinking that exact same thing. Not enough insulin to do the job. 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, clearly, she got this done through a doctor. I'm really curious what her doctor thought about all of that. But this would be a situation, again, not a doctor, but I do think it's a concerning situation to be have those high fasting blood glucose and that high HbA1c, especially for--she said it's like been a thing for a long time. Ironically, so we often talk-- or I at least often talk about how you can potentially get really good insulin and blood sugar control on like high carb, low fat diets or things like that. But if you have this situation where you're not clearing carbs, I would work with a doctor, I would really consider maybe a low carb or a ketogenic diet. I would look into it further basically because it's a bit concerning. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There comes a point with type 2 diabetes where you're not controlling your blood sugar, so your body stops making so much insulin, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Your beta cells and the pancreas are not producing insulin.  

Gin Stephens: Right. Then, you would have a low level of insulin and you might think, "Oh, that's really good." But really that's not, not a good sign. We've said before, yeah, low fasted insulin is good, but not always, not if you've got other things. If it's low because your pancreas is not working properly then that's a different situation. So, yeah, I think low insulin and really high blood glucose is just like you said, Melanie, that's something that I would dig into, let your doctor figure out.  

Melanie Avalon: Or I said type 2, it's really-- it would be type 1 diabetes. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like type 2, you are type 2 and then it like-- Do they say that it converts to type 1? I don't really know what they say. Do they change your diagnosis when your pancreas is no longer working?  

Melanie Avalon: Then there's also like type 3 diabetes.  

Gin Stephens: It's like a progression. You know what I mean? I'm not an expert in this.  

Melanie Avalon: There's like type 1.5.  

Gin Stephens: But it's like a progression. You're type 2 diabetic because you have high levels of insulin, but then over time your pancreas stops working because it's burned out. I don't know that's not like the medical term for it, maybe it is. Then your pancreas stops functioning properly, and then you have to start-- you're type 2 diabetic, but now you're insulin dependent. So, basically, Michelle, it's really complicated. You see what we're talking in circles a little bit around it. We're not endocrinologists, and there's a lot of factors, and so I would work with a doctor or endocrinologist, somebody who can pinpoint this and see what's going on. Make sure your pancreas is functioning properly because as we both have said, we're not doctors, but you may not be producing enough insulin to get your glucose down. 

Melanie Avalon: So, basically like type 1 is autoimmune related, so the beta cells are being attacked by the body and you're not producing the insulin that you need, and then type 2 is more lifestyle driven? 

Gin Stephens: It progresses.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, type 2 does not become type 1?  

Gin Stephens: No, but type 2 progresses to the point that you are insulin dependent like my dad, okay? My dad, type 2 diabetic, eventually became insulin dependent.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Because it like wore out. That's where I was using the terminology. I don't know what the correct medical terminology is. But it's like it wore out his pancreas. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Either way, the presentation of low insulin, high blood glucose, high HbA1c would most likely signify. If you just put that on paper, that's what type 1 diabetes looks like compared to type 2 diabetes where you have high insulin, high blood sugar, high--  

Gin Stephens: Right. Well, that's true. Unless you get to the point where your pancreas is not producing insulin at all, which that's the part that's-- [laughs] I don’t know what they call that. What do they call that? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. The insulin being low in the presence of the high blood sugar, high blood glucose, that would be like a presentation of type 1 diabetes. Regardless, I'm really curious what your doctor said. So, you might want to keep monitoring this and work with a doctor, and yeah, definitely monitor it. I'm glad she asked about it because I can see how this would be a major misconception because we talk so much about how low insulin is good. But the context is super key and if you have low insulin and you're not releasing enough insulin to deal with your carb load and it's building up that's a major problem. 

Gin Stephens: Again, not doctors, but I did just real quick find a study called Mechanisms of Beta Cell Death in type 2 diabetes. I don't know what the exact terminology should be, but it definitely can happen as it progresses.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there's actually-- and I just looked this up because I was thinking it was a thing. There's also type 1.5 diabetes and that's latent autoimmune diabetes in adults. It's the one that shares characteristics of both type 1 and type 2. It's usually diagnosed during adulthood, it sets in gradually, like type 2, but unlike type 2, it's actually an autoimmune disease and that's where your beta cells stop functioning. So, I am not diagnosing but you might want to approach your doctor with curiosity about type 1.5 diabetes.  

Gin Stephens: But if you get a fasted insulin level that's low, and your blood glucose is low, your fasted blood glucose and A1c is good, that's not something to worry about. It's only when insulin is low and your glucose is high that you might be like, "Huh." Your body, if it were working properly would pump out more insulin to lower your blood sugar because that's what your body wants to do. That's how it's designed to work. So, something's keeping it from doing that.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right, we talked around and around that one. 

Gin Stephens: [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I did a Q&A episode. I recorded it. I haven't released it yet with NutriSense CGM with Kara Collier there and she's the founder. I learned so much about the studies about different levels and if you have certain spikes how that correlates to health and longevity. It was really, really fascinating. So, I don't think it'll be out by the time this airs. Point of all that is that it's very fascinating what we can learn from blood sugar levels and HbA1c. But in any case, something is definitely going on here with the insulin.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Do we have time for one more quick one? 

Melanie Avalon: So, we have question from John. The subject is "fasting," and John says, "Hello, my name is John. I'm 57 years young, and I've been doing intermittent fasting for 31 days now. I do the 16:8. I eat mostly vegetables with about four to five ounces of protein per meal if I can. My eating window is from noon until eight. I've had increased energy, but for the last couple of days seemed to be getting tired around 3 o'clock. Should I go from 16:8 to 18:6? I'm losing weight on the 16:8, but I don't know if I should make my fast longer. What do you think? I'm reading Fast. Feast. Repeat. Great book," John. 

Gin Stephens: Thank you, John, and it's been about a month since you wrote this question. So, hopefully you pushed through that. But this is what we find as your body's getting to the end of the adjustment period. Very, very common. Whenever that might be, you've been having an eight-hour window. So, as you get to the end of the adjustment period, your body is about ready to flip that metabolic switch. It's very, very typical to have like a lull, and they're like a feeling of decreased energy, like you're moving around through Jell-O a little bit, and then you get to the other side, and there's ketosis, and then you feel better, and there's the energy, again.  

You asked if you should go from 16:8 to 18:6, you know, that was one way to push through. Just give yourself just a little more fasting to push through that, and then it's so much better on the other side. There's classic adjustment period description right there. The reason it took John, 31 days, because he's been doing 16:8. Had he been doing 19:5, he might have hit that wall in week two to three. It just really depends on your own personal metabolic factors, so many factors. Some people might not get that adjustment phase lull till week six.  

Melanie Avalon: Perfect.  

Gin Stephens: You were doing keto before, right? You were already fat adapted.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: It's the same with me. I went from summer of 2014, I had been doing keto all summer, we've talked about this before. So, I was fat adapted from keto from the fat from the keto, but not losing any weight. Then, I reintroduced carbs and started intermittent fasting and then bam. So, I didn't have a lull. That was the only time I was able to stick to it too. I felt so much better with the fasting and adding back in the carbs, and I immediately started to see weight loss of about a pound a week. But I was already fat adapted. So, yep. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you have your own questions for the show, you can email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode239. Those show notes will have a full transcript. So, super helpful and we will put links to everything that we talked about. Then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. I think that is all of the things.  

Gin Stephens: Yep.  

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: No. I got nothing.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Oh, I will say, I'm very happy. The weather seems to maybe be getting a little bit cooler, maybe? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm not.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. [laughs] I was so excited. 

Gin Stephens: I'm going to the beach next week. So, I hope it's warm. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I'm so excited. Have fun. 

Gin Stephens: I don't care if it's warm. It's still the beach. I'm still going to look at it and hear the ocean and I can't wait. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm ready for it to be freezing.  

Gin Stephens: No, no.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 24

Episode 236: Non Scale Victories, BMI, Hip-to-Waist Ratio, Ketone Esters, BHB Salts, Endurance Athletes, Exercise Performance, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 236 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At Melanieavalon.Com/Serrapeptase!

14:35 - Listener Feedback: Susan - Feedback about doing IF as and intense exerciser 

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42:35 - Listener Q&A: Jenny - Boosting ketones

57:05 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 236 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 10- to 16-pound, humanely raised, free-range turkey for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be supported by a company called ButcherBox. It is so, so important to us to buy high-quality meat that you can trust. It tastes better, it's more ethical, it's more sustainable, it's truly what benefits not only ourselves, but the planet. Friends, I've been doing a lot of research on transparency in the food industry and it is shocking what goes down. What you see on the shelves at the grocery store can be very misleading with practices that are not benefiting ourselves or the planet. So, if you're tired of searching for 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more, you've got to try ButcherBox. Their entire sourcing is actually done holistically. They keep the farmer, the planet, the animal, and your family all in mind to deliver products directly to you, cutting out the middleman of a grocery store to save you money, and get you quality meat and seafood that you can trust. 

Plus, their products taste amazing. Oh, my goodness, friends, I am a steak girl. ButcherBox filet is one of the best filets I have ever tasted in my entire life. I recently gave my family some of their grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and my mom told me it was the best ground beef she had ever tasted. My brother also adores their bacon. Yep, if you want pastured heritage-breed bacon that is sugar and nitrate free, you can get that at ButcherBox. I'm also a scallop girl, and their wild-caught scallops are delicious, and I can finally feel good about the transparency with that because friends, the seafood industry is very, very sketchy. A 2013 Oceana study found that one-third of seafood in grocery stores and restaurants was mislabeled. Farmed salmon is often labeled as wild salmon, and other fish species are just complete lies. It's honestly very shocking. 

Every month, ButcherBox members can get a curated selection of high-quality meat shipped straight to their home. Those boxes contain between 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type and what you want. They're packed fresh and shipped frozen with free shipping for the continental US. And friends, with the holidays upon us, how hard is it to find humanely raised, free-range turkeys without additives. Just go look at those turkeys at the grocery store and look at their ingredient list. It should be just turkey, it's not usually just turkey. They often plump up those turkeys at the grocery store to make them weigh more and those solutions are full of additives that you do not want in your body. But we've got you covered. You can skip the lines for your Thanksgiving turkey.  This holiday ButcherBox is proud to give new members a free turkey. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive a free turkey in your first box. I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.  

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 236 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I am looking at the ocean, so that is always a good thing. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: How is the ocean looking? 

Gin Stephens: It looks fabulous. I'm taking a really quick two-day trip, just two nights, which is never long enough. But our last renter of the season left, the renter that was here for a month, and so I had to come and like flip everything, get it ready just for us. So, that was exciting. Can I tell you something that I have learned about seagulls?  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, please do.  

Gin Stephens: When you're out on the beach and you see the seagulls, you just never really know where do they live? Do they stay in the same area? They do. We have this one seagull that lives right here by my house that has something wrong with his leg. So, when he flies one leg dangles down, and he can't use it. When he lands, you can tell he can't really bear weight on it. I have seen that same seagull all summer. And I saw him yesterday and I was so excited. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it possible because he has an injured leg that he doesn't travel far? 

Gin Stephens: Well, it is possible, but he's got his little friends and they're all together. I mean, they feel like they're a community. It's totally possible. He does everything the other seagulls do though. I mean, he flies with them, [laughs] they seem to be seagull friends. He's just right there with them. 

Melanie Avalon: One of my best friends was telling me how he had the epiphany recently that the bird that is outside his house is the same bird. He thought it was like a different bird for the longest time. 

Gin Stephens: No, I really think that they live somewhere. Like this bird, this is where he lives. I'm saying he, it could be a she, I don't know. [laughs] But I've seen him all season. I was so excited, I'll be like, “I got to see that bird. Where's that bird? I saw a whole group of them, and I walked over and there it was, and it just made me happy. I just want that bird to be okay, because when I first saw it, I was like, “Oh, no, I hope that bird's okay. I hope it doesn't die.” Nope. That's just how the bird lives. He seems just to be living his best life even though he's got, like, that doesn't work the same way.  

Melanie Avalon: It's motivational.  

Gin Stephens: It is motivational. Anyway, that bird makes me happy. That just tells you my life. [laughs] I'm out here communing with the birds. [laughs] So, what's up with you?  

Melanie Avalon: I had a moment, was it yesterday, I think. We're continuing production on my Serrapeptase supplement. I've been saying the brand name like when I talked about it on my other show and on the pre-order list. I'm formulating it with, was like, “You do have the trademark, right?” I was like, “No,” and he's like, “You need to take down everything and get the trademark now.” 

Gin Stephens: And that doesn't happen easily or quickly.  

Melanie Avalon: Because I was headed out to something. I was like, “I can do it tomorrow. “He's like, “You really need to do it now.” And I was like, “Okay.” [laughs] I learned really quickly. I think it's interesting how you can learn so much about like a niche topic really quickly if you have to. I got in the trademark registration government website and learned a lot really, really quick. I didn't know this. You probably know this because you've registered. You've registered copyrights or trademarks? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I have copyrights. They're two separate things obviously, you know this, but copyrights are for my books, I've registered those. Trademarks are different. I do have one trademark and it is for Delay, Don't Deny is as a title in a series. You cannot register a trademark for a title of a book in isolation. People don't realize that. That's why there can be a million books out there, all called Fast. Feast. Repeat. that are put out by those people that are the copycats and there's nothing we can do legally, because you can absolutely use a title, but Delay, Don't Deny because it's in a series, like Chicken Soup for the Soul. In order to trademark it, I had to produce several different things, and so I did and got a trademark, but it's not something that happens overnight. The process takes months. 

Melanie Avalon: I would have thought you register the trademark before having the product, but to actually have the trademark, the product has to be created and in use, like being sold. 

Gin Stephens: Or you have to show that you're actively doing it or something. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, basically. What I registered was intent to use, but it's not official until I have a specimen. 

Gin Stephens: Exactly. And if you never have a specimen, you lose it. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: We'll have a specimen really pretty soon because we're really moving forward with the labels on the production and finalizing the formulation, so I'm not concerned about it. That was just so counterintuitive to me. I would have thought you registered before creation, but the officialness comes after. 

Gin Stephens: I guess it's to keep people from just registering all words. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that does make sense. 

Gin Stephens: So, you can't just like grab everything good. “Sorry, you'll have to buy this from me because I have it registered." Right? 

Melanie Avalon: That completely makes sense, because otherwise you would just register everything.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. And then you would be like the wealthy and you would hold it, you would hold it. Yeah, but you can't, so at least thank goodness for that. 

Melanie Avalon: So, that was exciting. Now I have the document and it's very exciting. Today's Sunday we should be getting back tomorrow hopefully like the final word on the formulations and we're lab testing other companies to see what's actually in them. I'm just so, so excited. So, I will say for listeners, my goal was to create a Serrapeptase with no fillers, but now we don't know if that's actually possible with the machines and that's why we're lab testing the other companies because we don't believe they're actually doing it with no fillers. There's only-- there're so many Serrapeptase brands, but there's two that make it seem like they don't have fillers, but we don't believe them. What we've learned from like things they can say on the labels, I'm just learning so much. So, rest assured, I promise my version of it will be the cleanest best version on the market that there is. I'm very excited.  

Gin Stephens: I am not surprised at all about that. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah, I'm going to make this one and then I'm going to make all the other things like taking. For, listeners, just really quick. Listeners are probably familiar, but basically, it's a--Serrapeptase, it's a proteolytic enzyme, created originally by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, breaks down residual proteins in the body. So it can address-- there's so much research on it. It can address inflammation, brain fog, fibroids, that's what Gin originally took it for. It breaks on amyloid plaque and Alzheimer's. It reduces cholesterol, it reduces fatty deposits. It makes antibiotics more effective, so it can combat antibiotic resistance. It breaks down biofilms. It's literally just like a wonder supplement. And you can just take it for daily use as well. So, the link to get on the pre-order list because I do anticipate that it will sell out is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad. You've learned a lot, right? 

Melanie Avalon: I have learned so much. That's one of the funniest parts of it all. I just love learning.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. I love learning, too. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I feel very empowered now to talk more, not with authority because I don't want to say I'm an authority figure, but I can talk with more information and knowledge about the supplement industry. So, yes.  

Gin Stephens: Well, that's always good.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep. So, shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. Let's get started. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so to start things off, we have listener feedback. It's from Susan. The subject is “Feedback about doing IF as an intense exerciser.” Susan said, “Hi there, Melanie and Gin. First of all, I know everyone says this, but I am so thankful for finding your podcast, and I've listened to every episode, and it has had such an incredible impact on my life. I am 49, soon to be the big 50 in November, and I've been doing IF with a clean fast, of course, since January 2020. I exercise five days a week, three runs, ranging from 45 minutes to two hours, and two intense one-hour cross training sessions a week. I also walk for about an hour on top of this most days. My feedback to you is that my window each day ranges from 16:8 to 23:1, depending on the day and how I feel. I never eat before noon and always exercise in the mornings. I just wanted to let you know that I feel better than I have ever felt exercising in the fasted state. I would never again eat before exercising.” I just want to jump in and say I agree so much. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Somebody in our community was just earlier this week was like, “Well, I was working out and I got really, really sick and dizzy and shaky. And I ate a salad right before I did the workout.” I'm like, “That's why, [laughs] you didn't have enough to fuel the workout.”  

Melanie Avalon: The idea of exercising with food in my stomach is just very unappealing to me now, it just feels heavy and-- 

Gin Stephens: Wrong. It feels so heavy. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I don't even feel hungry when I'm done. I just eat when I get hungry. Even after a two-hour run, I'm not experiencing any “need” for food. The funny thing is I used to always eat breakfast, I'm a whole food healthy eater, which was oats with milk and cinnamon before my exercise. There were many days in my past that I would experience signs of low blood sugar, trembling, sweating, weakness, fuzzy brain, etc. And would have to stop exercising and have a quick bite, so as not to faint.” I have to say something about this, circle back. 

Gin Stephens: I also did too, I just want to say that's exactly what the person said she experienced after eating before working out. It was that exactly. 

Melanie Avalon: That exact same thing.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. Trembling, sweating, weakness, feeling sick. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I have not had one moment of this since starting IF, best thing ever. A side note, I started if because I had gained about 10 pounds and couldn't at the time figure out why, since I hadn't changed anything in my routine or diet. I have since learned it was likely hormonal, I lost that weight easily, have maintained it easily. And the health benefits of IF are incredible. So, I will never ever stop this incredible lifestyle. I read your books, listen to all the podcasts and I'm so thankful for you two.” 

Gin Stephens: Yay, Susan.  

Melanie Avalon: And I like this email a lot from Susan because, as listeners know, Gin and I are not regularly going on to our runs. We can't really speak to that. It's nice to hear from people who do and how they're performing well in the fasted state.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. 

Melanie Avalon: My little quick thing was I fainted this week, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: What? I've never fainted, not one time in my entire life. 

Melanie Avalon: And the thing about it is, remember when we answered that question about giving blood and I was really hesitant because I had fainted once before drawing blood? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: And that was 10 years ago. I have had my blood drawn so many times, so I thought I was over it. And I wasn't even having my blood drawn, I was getting an IV for glutathione and vitamin C for just health and wellness. And she couldn't get the IV in, like she kept poking me and it wasn't working. And then she kind of like, I don't know, poked me internally, and it really hurt. I thought I was fine. So, she wasn't drawing any blood, but something about it just psyched out my-- what's it called the vasovagal? 

Gin Stephens: I guess so. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: A vagal response. I started feeling nauseous. I was like, I think I'm going to faint. What's funny is I don't even remember leading up to the fainting. She said she like tried to get me to drink water, and I was like not having it.  

Gin Stephens: So, you don't even remember it? 

Melanie Avalon: I remember feeling nauseous and I don't remember leading up to it. And then I just remember coming to when I was shaking, which is scary because then I was googling like seizures versus fainting. Apparently, you can shake when you faint. It doesn't mean you're having a seizure. It's so scary--. It's like really scary. The scary thing about it is it makes you realize just how not in control you are of your body with something. It's like if your body decides to faint, like there's nothing you can do. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's true.  

Melanie Avalon: The equivalent if you haven't fainted, it's like when you're put under for anesthesia, it just happens, and then you just wake up, it's like that. So, you haven't fainted? 

Gin Stephens: Never. [laughs] Are you surprised? 

Melanie Avalon: No. Now, I'm really hoping it doesn't spark. I felt I'd gotten over my fear response about fainting again, ever since fainting 10 years ago. And I'm like, “Oh.” Now I'm going to be worried again every time I draw blood.  

Gin Stephens: Well, don't worry about it. Just go in there knowing it's not going to happen. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the mindset I've been having. And thankfully it wasn't during drawing blood. So, wonderful listeners would like to write in with their experiences. So, I feel not alone. Yeah, it's the worst.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can imagine. It does seem like it would be the worst. 

Melanie Avalon: It's just very scary. It's just very confusing, because you don't know what's happening. And then you feel like-- 

Gin Stephens: And you really can't control it.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: It was one of those things, like, I don't know, when I was growing up, and we'd be like on stage singing with the chorus and someone would faint. Everybody was like, you remember how that would happen? Like they said it was because you locked your knees, then you would faint? I don't really know. So, they're like, “Don't lock your knees or you’ll faint,” but people would faint on stage. And I'd be like, “That looks so dramatic. I would like to faint.” When you see someone's crutches, and signing their cast, you're like, “I want to do that, too.” You're like, “No, you really don't.” But when you're a kid, you're like, “That looks fun.” I don't know now, that sounds dumb. But you know what I'm talking about? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I always thought it looks so dramatic in movies. When women would faint like, “Huh.” And it's like, “Oh, wow, that's so poetic.” [laughs] But, yeah, it's not fun. It's scary.  

Gin Stephens: No, I wouldn't think so.  

Melanie Avalon: And, of course, my first thought was, “I want my mother.” That's always I feel like my first thought when anything traumatic happens. It's like the fear response. So, all is well. Thankfully, it was with a nurse obviously. And she said she knew I was about to faint. She was like-- she just knew, it just had to happen. There's nothing she could do.  

Gin Stephens: They know the signs, I'm sure.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like, “Well, just got to let this happen.”  

Hi, friends. I am a huge proponent of getting our nutrition from food. When all else fails, I feel food is the way to go. That said, there are some nutrients that are super hard to get in today's environment. Did you know that 80% of the population is deficient in magnesium? Our soils are so depleted of magnesium today, that it's really, really hard to get enough of this crucial mineral. It's actually the number one mineral to fight stress, fatigue, and sleep issues. I've been doing a lot of research on minerals, especially the calcium magnesium balance, and I walk away from so many conversations I have with experts just realizing more and more how important magnesium is. I personally love magnesium for its stress reducing effects, as well as helping with my digestive issues. 

Yes, magnesium is the single most-studied mineral in existence. It actually powers over 600 critical reactions and our bodies. Did you know that there are multiple types of magnesium? That's why I am so excited to share with you, the magnesium product that I discovered, is called Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers, and it combines all seven essential forms of magnesium into one convenient supplement. Most magnesium supplements actually fail, because they are synthetic and are not full spectrum. But, when you get all seven critical forms of magnesium, pretty much every function in your body gets upgraded, from your brain to your sleep, pain and inflammation and less stress. 

With this one simple action, you can help reverse your magnesium deficiency and all of its forms. This is by far the most complete magnesium product ever created, and until or unless someone comes out with a better one, I highly recommend you give it a try. I can't tell you how many times I get feedback in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, about people who have truly benefited so much from Magnesium Breakthrough, and we have a special offer just for our listeners, you can get 10% off Magnesium Breakthrough, if you go to magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast and enter the code IFPODCAST10. That's M-A-G-B-R-E-A-K-T-H-R-O-U-G-H forward slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T with coupon code IFPODCAST10. Once again, that's magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. By the way that coupon code is good for 10% off any order. Definitely take a look around the BiOptimizers website for other supplements that might benefit your health. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.  

Shall we go on to our next listener feedback? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Megan. And the subject is, “Finally my own non-scale victory.” She says hi, “Gin and Melanie. I've been doing IF for a little over a year now, but still struggle to do this consistently. Mainly, I struggle with an all or nothing mentality, with a big dose of perfectionism thrown in.”  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's me.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I totally get it. When I was the gifted teacher and teaching the gifted endorsement classes to adult teachers who were getting their gifted endorsement to teach gifted kids, we talked about perfectionism. It really is true. In people-- Gifted kids are very likely to struggle with perfectionism. It really is like, “Well, I won't do anything if I can't do it right,” kind of a mindset. So being able to understand that was really important for teachers of the gifted. Anyway, yeah, that is a real thing. Kids will throw a project away rather than turn it in because they don't want to turn into something that isn't perfect. 

Melanie Avalon: I identify with that. 

Gin Stephens: I'm a good enougher. [laughs] I'm like, “I did my best. It's good enough. Here you go.” [laughs] Anyway, but I totally do understand perfectionistic kids because we saw a lot of them, over the years, I worked with lots of them. Back to Megan's feedback. She says, “I love listening to all of your podcasts and get so inspired by all of the success stories. But when I fail to have those same results, I get so discouraged. Am I the only person that struggles or for whom IF doesn't work? I've not been blessed with big weight loss results. And up until recently, I couldn't come up with a single non-scale victory and felt discouraged.” I want to jump right in there real quick. You know that saying, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” It really is true, because we think everyone else is having better results than we are. We can be like, just so quick to throw in the towel. So, I get it--, I totally get it. And I'm not blaming anyone who feels that way because it's human nature to look around and see what everybody else has and thinks, “Well, they're all doing it flawlessly. And here I am over here.” Anyway, I totally get it.  

She says, “I am at high risk for type 2 diabetes due to family history. And besides wanting to look great in pictures. This is the main reason I'm drawn to IF. It just makes logical sense, and is what keeps me devoted to this lifestyle. However, I will not say that I don't struggle with what is “wrong” with me when I hear success story after success story, but I'm flying high today.  

I recently got blood work for a much overdue physical. Thank you, pandemic. I'm so thrilled with my results that I just had to write to you. Right before the pandemic in December 2019, my fasting glucose was 97. But now my glucose result was 86. I dropped 11 points. I can't stop smiling. This is the first non-scale victory that I can claim. I am currently 218 pounds down from 235 a year ago, and still have a long way to go with weight loss. My window is 18:6, and I struggle with bingeing if I tried to increase that to 24 or one meal a day. Until I got that test result, I would have sworn that I was broken, and IF just works for everyone except me, but no more. Keep up the wonderful work and I will continue to be listening to all of your great success stories, and knowing that finally, I have a victory to credit to this lifestyle to. Best wishes, Megan." 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I love hearing that from Megan. I really do feel if people stick it out long enough, the non-scale victories will eventually come to them for most people.  

Gin Stephens: I think so too, but also know that there's still tweaking to be had. It sounds like Megan's been tweaking window length, but there's so many things you can tweak besides just window length. Like what you're eating. 

Melanie Avalon: What you're eating. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I know you were going to say that, weren't you? 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's very exciting, because people can see changes with the fasting, but then there's this whole treasure trove of potential if they haven't touched at all the food choices. There's so much potential for amazing improvements. I think it's very empowering-  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: -for people. Any other thoughts? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I'm just really excited to hear about that wonderful non-scale victory with you're-- seeing improvements in your fasted blood glucose. So, that's huge. Just keep looking for other things and tweak those foods if you haven't. Shrinking your window is not always the right answer. Maybe a six-hour window, maybe even an eight-hour window and tweaking what you're eating, just to see what feels right to you. 

Melanie Avalon: With the fasting glucose, it's incredible that it went down 11 points. There is a lot of variability though in fasting glucose. 

Gin Stephens: I thought that and didn't want to say it because I didn't want to be a Debbie Downer.  

Melanie Avalon: This can go either way though, because it doesn't have to automatically be a Debbie Downer. It's just very important to know-- I would encourage listeners to not evaluate the entirety of their progress based on just a single snapshot of blood glucose, because if Gin and I have learned one thing with our, well, blood glucose test, but also our experience with continuous glucose monitors where we see our blood sugar, you basically continually for 24/7 for two weeks at a time is when you wear them. You really realize just how much your blood sugar can fluctuate from minute to minute even. It's crazy. The reason this could be a Debbie Downer or it could be the opposite is, it's possible that the Debbie Downer side of things would be that there actually isn't-- there actually isn't much change in your overall blood sugar levels, like your average blood sugar levels. Or it could be that last time when your blood sugar was 97, that that was actually lower than what it normally is. That this 86 is actually higher than it normally is.  

There could be an actually even bigger difference, or it could be the opposite. It could be the opposite, where actually yours is a little bit higher than 86 now, and actually was a little bit lower than 97 before. It's really hard to know, you could get a continuous glucose monitor to look at things. We'll put links in the show notes to companies that provide access to those. You can check your A1C, which-- it'll give you a three-month picture of the level of glycation of your hemoglobin, which is affected by your average blood sugar levels. There are thoughts out there about its accuracy, but I think it does give a pretty good picture. You could also look at other metabolic health factors.  

Since you are at high risk for type 2 diabetes, I would really, really suggest looking at the five markers of metabolic syndrome. If you have three out of the five, you have metabolic syndrome, so one of them is high blood sugar. The others are low HDL, high triglycerides, the high blood sugar, abdominal obesity and high blood pressure. So, that would be something good to monitor your progress. Like how many of those do you have now and how many do you have as you go forward? I'm surprised we haven't actually really talked about that before because I don't think we've talked about it much on this show. But that really is understood to be the marker of metabolic health.  

Gin Stephens: I thought of something I wanted to say and then I forgot to say it. When I suggested making your window even a little longer, that might have sounded crazy. But the reason that I said that I didn't explain why, is because Megan says that she struggles with bingeing, if she tries to increase her fast to 20 hours a day, or if she tries to eat one meal a day, which I'm assuming she means in a really short window, and increased urge to binge over time, is a sign that you are over-restricting for your body. If you tend to over restrict, in a four-hour window, or one meal a day, maybe you just are someone who is like a lighter eater, like Melanie, you and I talked about, we're not light eaters, we eat a lot of food. So, that's why shorter window--, five-hour window is okay for me. I don't get that urge to binge with a five-hour window. But if you do, that may be a signal that your body perceives, what you're doing is over restriction. So, for you, if you're a lighter eater, maybe an eight-hour window, not like eating solid straight for eight hours. But maybe you need two meals within an eight-hour window, one on each end of it, for your body to feel happy, and not send you the urge to binge.  

That's why every time someone asks me-- I just was interviewed for a podcast two days ago, and the person asked me, “What is the best approach for intermittent fasting?” I'm like, “There isn't one. There is no best.” This is an example of that. An eight-hour window is not right for me. I can eat too much in eight hours, I do, if I eat for eight hours, if I have an eight-hour window. But it might be right for somebody else. Even if a lot of people struggle to lose weight with an eight-hour window, that doesn't mean that it isn't the perfect window for somebody. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad that you elaborated on that.  

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I hope that made sense.  

Melanie Avalon: It did. 

Gin Stephens: Good. It just people might be like, “Why did she say increase your window? That sounds crazy, if someone's not losing weight.” But if you're doing something that feels overly restrictive for your body, that can actually keep you from losing weight, because your body is like, “I'm just going to stay right here.” You can even vary it from day to day, maybe one day, two meals and eight hours. The next day, you lose up and down kind of pattern. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And on top of that, too restrictive could be a problem. And then on top of that, if you do struggle with a bingeing pattern, it just exacerbates everything. So that could be a pattern that would really, really not be working for somebody. 

Gin Stephens: Right. “Tweak it till it's easy.” I've got a chapter called that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. And we are all very much a study of one. If you're feeling things like bingeing, that's a sign something's not working. If you're not losing any weight at all, over a long period of time, that's a sign that something is still going on in your body. Now, it might be something that you haven't got your finger on yet, like hormonal or something else. Maybe your body is pulling fat out of a fatty liver. There's so many things that could be going on. It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong. It just means that you haven't discovered your weight loss sweet spot yet, or maybe your body's working on something more important.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: All right, you ready to go on to the next one.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. We have a question from, I think it's Emely.  

Gin Stephens: I would say Emely. 

Melanie Avalon: That's a very pretty spelling of Emely. And the subject is, “BMI chart says I am overweight should I care?” And Emely says, “Hey, Melanie and Gin, I've been IFing and listening to your podcast since the start of 2018. My health is great, and it's such a joy to no longer stress about gaining weight. I'm a lifelong athlete with a decent amount of muscle. I wear a size eight mediums and feel confident, healthy and strong. My waist to hip ratio is 0.72, which is low health risk. I eat well, mostly plant based, lots of Daily Harvest.” That's what you love, Gin, right? 

Gin Stephens: I do love Daily Harvest. Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Are they a sponsor on your other show? 

Gin Stephens: They are, which is so exciting, because nothing makes me happier than when I love a product, and then they become a sponsor because that's the order that it happened in. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: We can put a link in the show notes. Do you have a discount code for them? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, I do. If you go to ginstephens.com, on the Favorite Things tab, you can find it there. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. “Lots of Daily Harvests with the occasional vegetarian pizza. I workout two to three times a week, cardio, dance, battle ropes, HIIT, and Barre classes. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know what battle ropes is, do you? 

Melanie Avalon: Is that like jump roping where you battle? I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know, but it sounds really fun. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: It's what I was sort of picturing. It's like-- I don't know what it is, but there's these people holding scary-looking ropes and they're attached to the wall and they're moving them aggressively. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. [laughs] Now I'm imagining it. Thank you, Emely, for teaching us something new. That sounds really fun. Like, I might like to do battle ropes. I don't know. 

Melanie Avalon: We're going to become battle rope champions. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I bet, you're going to really increase your arm strength. That's something that-- 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I want to do it. Okay. To-do list. 

Gin Stephens: I probably could not do it right now. I'd be like, “Oops, I'm losing this battle.”  

Melanie Avalon: You have different people focus on different parts of the body, for like, what is most aesthetically pleasing. I focus on arms. I am obsessed with arms. I think we talked about this before. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know, but I know what you mean. I like shoulders, yeah, I get it. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I should look into this. She says, “I don't count or track anything. And I would prefer to continue not tracking or counting. I'm 5’6”, and usually around 159 pounds. This puts my BMI at 25.7 technically overweight. Should I focus on losing five pounds in order to get my BMI at a healthy range? Or should I continue my maintenance plan, is BMI something to stress over? I'm worried that as an American, my idea of what “overweight” looks like eschewed. But according to the BMI chart, I am. Is this something I should focus on changing? If I'm content with how my body looks, feels, and works, should I try to change to get into that healthy range? Thanks so much, Emely.”  

Gin Stephens: I'm going to say, just ignore that BMI for yourself. [laughs] Here's why. We've probably all read articles about how Olympic athletes are classified sometimes as obese, based on their muscle mass. They have so much muscle, and they're lean, and they have a very low body fat percentage, but because the only thing BMI takes into account body mass index, is your relationship between what the scale says and your height. That is it--. That's it. If you are very low body fat, very high amount of muscle, you get on the scale and your relationship with gravity is that you have a lot of mass, more mass. So, your body mass index is higher. Thanks to all that muscle. It's not showing the true picture of your body and what your body composition is. So really, your body fat percentage is a much better indication versus BMI.  

BMI isn't like totally awful for everybody. It can be a good rough estimate for some, but if you are really, really muscular, it is not going to be very accurate for you. For you, though, your waist to hip ratio of 0.72 is a much better indication that you are lean. I would just focus on your waist to hip ratio and know that you are athletic and healthy and BMI is not accurate for you, because as soon as you see that Olympic athletes are obese and they're not because their body fat percentage is so low, you realize that it's very, very imperfect. There is a BMI calculator that, I just want to throw out there. It's not really as relevant in Emely's case, but have you ever gone to the Smart BMI Calculator, Melanie?-- smartbmicalculator.com. I think I may have talked about it before. 

Melanie Avalon: Is that where you add in measurements that go with it?  

Gin Stephens: It has to do with more like your age. and things like that. It's basically it's rethinking the BMI, smartbmicalculator.com 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you don't put any measurements in? 

Gin Stephens: No, you just put your height and your weight and your age. It just gives you a more accurate calculation based on your age, and where you might fall within there. 

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Yeah, we can put a link to in the show notes. Gin pretty much said it. The important thing really there is what is that weight made of? So, is it fat or is it muscle. Even I was just mentioning before that the metabolic syndrome, it's not just obesity that is one of the factors. It's abdominal obesity. It's a certain type of fat, even that is correlated to the health issues. Ascertaining what your weight is made, of which I mean, we can't assume, but it sounds like from all of her activity levels, that it probably is muscle, and especially with her health factors, she could do something like a DEXA scan, which would more likely show your muscle composition. The only potential problem with that is that it can even be misleading if you are on a ketogenic diet. I was just reading about this last night, because it still measures based on water and things like that.  

Gin Stephens: Really? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, low carb diets can play around with that. The study I was reading last night was saying, the issues with the DEXA scan and what you need to do instead, which was--, I don't know if it was stuff that was available. They were doing it in the study. So, like in this study, for example, they talked about the potential issues with DEXA. In this study, they use DEXA as well as an MRI, that's not something that's really accessible. An MRI to assess visceral adipose tissue mass, and thigh skeletal muscle cross-sectional areas. They also looked at nitrogen balance and something called 3-methylhistidine, which measures, I think, the turnover of lean mass to look at protein metabolism in this study because I think DEXA is the thing that's most accessible to the lay people, but just a note that if you're on a low carb ketogenic diet, there might be a slight issue with that.  

I think there are formulations online that look at measurements to find out your body composition. So, doing those, I still would recommend the DEXA. Looking at your metabolic health and all of that should give you a much better picture of everything.  

Gin Stephens: Yep, I think so too. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Ginny. The subject is “Boosting Ketones.” Ginny says, “What do you ladies think about using BHB or exogenous ketones to get an energy boost and promote faster ketosis? I've been using them about a month now and wondered if there's any real benefit, and when you recommend using them? Thanks. Your show was awesome.” Gosh, it's been a long time since we've had a question about ketones. Also, in the communities, like for a while, that's all everybody was asking. I mean, I can't think of the last time someone has asked about them. I thought they were like gone for good. I was hoping they were. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I got really excited because I had that exact response as you, Gin. I was like, “Oh, I haven't even really looked into this and forever.” 

Gin Stephens: I thought that everyone was like, “Alright, we're done with those. Let's move on.” But I think they're still there. 

Melanie Avalon: I went on a really, really deep rabbit hole research on this. And I went in completely open minded because I did have that same response as you, Gin, so I was like, “What is the latest research say? I don't know, maybe it's going to be super supportive and maybe I'll walk away being like I should take these.” I do not walk away thinking that. 

Gin Stephens: No, I've researched it before and always the answer is no. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I will tell you what I found and I only looked at really recent studies. 2020 or 2021, I wanted to look at three things, actually four things. So, physical performance, mental stress performance, weight loss, and then health-- like specific health issues.  

Gin Stephens: Did it have health benefits, is that what you're saying?  

Melanie Avalon: Therapeutically, if you had a specific disease, would it be beneficial? 

Gin Stephens: That's what I meant. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: What did she call them? Because are different types. She called it-- 

Gin Stephens: BHB. 

Melanie Avalon: BHB or exogenous ketones.  

Gin Stephens: Beta-hydroxybutyrate, is that what it is? Did I say it right out of my brain?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, with the ketogenic diet or fasting, we can create ketones endogenously, so our body makes them, exogenously is when you're just taking preformed ketones. This is different than MCT oil that we talked about before-- or that we talked about a lot, MCT oil, easily becomes ketones, but it's not like a literal ketone. If that makes sense. 

Gin Stephens: It's not one yet, it can be made in the one. It's a fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. The two forms that people supplement with are ketone esters and then BHB salts. So, she was asking about the BHB salts. The ketone esters seem to be what creates a higher elevation and ketone levels in the body. So, I looked at different studies. The weight loss study I looked at use salts. The exercise performance when I looked at, oh, it also use salts. I'm not sure if I looked at any specifically with the esters. But regardless what I thought was really interesting, some quick takeaways, and then I'll go into the specifics. So, it seems that there are some factors at play when you take exogenous ketones. In the beginnings--, in the weight loss study that I looked at, it was a six-week study. In the beginning, the people that took the exogenous ketones, and the setup of that study, by the way was they had people, it was a calorie-restricted diet in obese patients. They had people doing a ketogenic diet without exogenous ketones, a ketogenic diet with exogenous ketones and then a low-fat diet. And then all the participants ate the same amount of calories. 

Gin Stephens: The low-fat people, were there two groups for them as well, some with ketones and some not, or they none of them got ketones? 

Melanie Avalon: None of them got ketones. I wanted them to do that.  

Gin Stephens: I know. It seems just a little incomplete.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But they were actually using the low-fat diet as like a control which is interesting.  

Gin Stephens: That's weird--, that's so weird--. So weird.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was like, “Oh, I thought that'd be really cool setup to have.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Now I'll have to after this, I took so many notes, I realized I think I want to write a blog post on this because I spent a few hours researching this and I was like, there's so much so I'm just going to talk about the takeaways that I found. But I might do an even deeper dive into it because it was really, really interesting. But so in that study, for example, what they were trying to look at was, does taking exogenous ketones help preserve muscle mass. Something they started out with, by the way was they hypothesize that, because apparently, some studies show a loss of muscle on ketogenic diets, but they hypothesize that because those ketogenic diets don't have enough protein and/or don't have enough sodium electrolytes. 

Gin Stephens: Or maybe they just for a short duration, and the people weren't fat adapted yet. I think that could also be a factor.  

Melanie Avalon: I agree. In this study, they thought they would find that adding the exogenous ketones would help preserve muscle mass. What they found--, they did not find that. There was a non-significant trend towards better muscle mass retention in the ketogenic diet with the exogenous ketones, but it wasn't significant. So, basically, it was like a tiny little bit of a difference, but not significant. And then on top of that, and this is why I was saying at the beginning about the two weeks. So, interestingly, in the initial two weeks having the exogenous ketones did for the ketone group, it raised their body ketones higher, but by the end of the six weeks, there wasn't any difference between the ketogenic diet with the ketones and the ketogenic diet without the ketones. 

Gin Stephens: So, that makes me think that the reason it was higher early on, is because obviously they're taking ketones right. They're measuring the ketones that they're taking in, but the fact that they didn't stay higher means that the people that were on the ketogenic diet without the exogenous ketones, made their own ketones from stored body fat, whereas the people who were taking the ketones, it just stayed constant from the ones they were taking, rather than making their own. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my thoughts were that something along those lines. And I need to look at the charts and see what happened with the actual ketone levels, but basically, their thoughts, which was my thoughts, which is a little bit different than yours, but I was like-- it's funny. My initial thought is what their thought was, but I had what you just said in the background, as the other idea, but I wasn't really thinking about it. They were saying that basically, there's just a very intense regulation of the ketone levels in the body. And so regardless of the factors that are contributing to it, in the end, your body is going to maintain a certain level. 

Gin Stephens: Think about it, though. That means that you're not making them. If you're trying to maintain within this small range, if you're continually taking them in, you don't need to make them. And the magic isn't in having the ketones, it's in making them from our stored body fat. We want to do that.  

Melanie Avalon: So, that's actually the question like where's the magic because the reason other people researchers are really interested in exogenous ketones for therapeutic benefits is-- Oh, this is perfect because I have a perfect quote about this. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, and by the way, I wasn't talking about therapeutic benefits like Alzheimer's. Yeah, I was talking about for fat loss.  

Melanie Avalon: That's why I was going to say. I wanted to clarify the magic. When our context of what we were just talking about, the magic of them would be from burning body fat. This is why I needed to break it down into different categories. There are people looking at exogenous ketones for therapeutic health effects, and that's where the question comes in of, is there an extra benefit there, but there's this amazing quote. So, this is from a study, appropriately enough called exogenous ketones as therapeutic signaling molecules and high stress occupations, implications for mitigating oxidative stress, and mitochondrial dysfunction, and future research. It's a 2020 study.  

Okay, I feel the vibe, I'm going to get really casual in my words, but the vibe of that article or study was basically I feel it really encapsulated the way, I think, exogenous ketones are because it was a lot of theory. It was basically, like, we see all these benefits of the ketogenic state. So, there should be-- there's this potential that taking them exogenously would have all these health benefits. But then they just don't have any studies. They had like one study, and they were saying, like, in the future, we would like to see more studies, but there's not a lot of research on it. And then they even said, and this is what we were just talking about. They said, “Current speculation suggests that it would be incorrect to assume that exogenous ketones mimic the robust mitochondrial environment induced from an adhering to a ketogenic diet.” 

Gin Stephens: Boom. [laughs] Or, ketogenic lifestyle with fasting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so basically, all the benefits you're getting from this mitochondrial state of a ketogenic diet is not the same thing as taking-- Yeah. And everything that happens from that is not the same thing as taking them exogenously. But then they do say, however, data are limited and human trials, specifically as it relates to the effects of ketone bodies on inflammation and oxidative stress markers. They basically say there's not really research on it. 

Gin Stephens: By the way, can I clarify, when I said that I know I didn't say very clearly? When I say a ketogenic fasting lifestyle, that doesn't mean that you're necessarily eating keto and doing fasting, because fasting itself is ketogenic. I just wanted to clarify that. Anybody who's fasting long enough, is going to get into ketosis, even if you do not eat keto style in your eating window.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. To clarify more that quote about the mitochondrial state, basically, when you enter the ketogenic state, it's not even just that your body is creating these ketones. And this is me, I'm not a scientist or anything, but just from what I've read, I don't think it's so much that that there's this extra magic to an endogenously created ketone versus an exogenously created ketone. It's just that the entire context that leads up to an endogenously created ketones, like making the ketones yourself, the whole system in your body is working differently.  

So, you're changing-- It's like if you had a factory that created ketones. In one situation, you have changed the entire workings of the factory to create those ketones all by itself, compared to a factory that actually isn't that good at creating ketones, and you just come in and put ketones on the belt, like, it's not actually making them. You're not getting all of the benefits to how that factory is working. There's so many other benefits from what leads to the creation of those ketones. 

Gin Stephens: Can I share my analogy that I haven't said in a long, long time because we haven't had a question about it? To me, the very best way of thinking about it is taking exogenous ketones is like spraying yourself with sweat and thinking you worked out, because working out is where the benefits are, not the fact that you're sweating. I mean sweat--.  The actual act of sweating is a detoxification thing. The working out that caused you to sweat is good for your body. But the sweat itself is not the goal. And the same can be said with the ketones. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and like an extension of that analogy was because I think-- I don't know, but there might be a place for exogenous ketones, but I think it would be very specific health conditions. 

Gin Stephens: For example, epilepsy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Where due to that health condition, it's like with a sweat analogy, maybe there's a person who can't really produce sweat or can't produce enough sweat and they're in the desert and it's like this-- 

Gin Stephens: And you're really hot and If I spray you with sweat, you'll have a bit of it. [laughs] But it's not the same as if you worked up a sweat yourself.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: Can I say one thing about Ginny's question? She said that she's using them to get an energy boost. Well, it's because it's energy, you're taking in energy. If you ate a cookie, you'd have an energy boost too, but it's not what you want.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you brought that up, like to that point, the weight loss study for the group that took the ketones, I think they said it added around, like 120 calories. So, they had to adjust for that, for the other-- they didn’t just add it, they had to reduce the calories of-- 

Gin Stephens: Of the food that they ate.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: Bummer. They also had to eat less because they're taking in energy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: That should tell you something. [laughs] Ginny, we have good news and bad news. The bad news is-- 

Melanie Avalon: And I'm not even done.  

Gin Stephens: You don't need the ketones. But the good news is, you don't have to pay for them anymore. You can get them for free. That's the good news. The good news is, we are saving you money. Right now, stop buying ketones, make your own ketones. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. 

Gin Stephens: I thought you were done. I'm sorry. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: No. Just one more thing, I want to talk about the exercise performance, which relates to what you just talked about. So, this is perfect. One last thing about the weight loss study. The title of the study was the “Effects of a six-week controlled hypocaloric ketogenic diet, with and without exogenous ketone salts on body composition responses.” But something I did want to pop in there, just because it dismantles something we talked about occasionally on the show, and that's with the whole ketogenic diet. There's this idea that you have to be in ketosis to lose weight, which is not true. So, the low-fat diet in this study, they all lost around the same amount of weight, and the low-fat diet never went into ketosis. 

Gin Stephens: Although you could go into ketosis on a low-fat diet. 

Melanie Avalon: You could, yeah. you could. I'd have to look at it again. They definitely didn't go to the level of other two of the ketogenic diet.  

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And this is my personal favorite update. So for those of us who like to use Joovv devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game-changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply. And this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Melanie Avalon: The last thing I was going to talk about was exercise performance, which relates to Ginny's question. This is a study from 2020 called “Effects of an exogenous ketone supplement on five kilometer running performance.” This study looked at recreational runners and their endurance running and the effects of taking exogenous ketones. And these people were not on a low-carb or ketogenic diet. They were eating a normal diet. They took either exogenous ketones before a five-kilometer run, or they took a placebo drink that tasted the same, but didn't have any ketones in it. And they wanted to see if it affected their performance, if it affected their perceived exertion, if it affected their energy levels. What I liked about the study was they also summarized all the other research to date. So, this was 2020, and they talked about all the other studies to date that also looked at this general concept. And in their summary, they said that to date, so this was up until 2020. One trial showed exercise improvements. Three trials showed neutral effects. And two trials showed negative effects with exogenous ketone supplementation. So, that is not looking good for exogenous ketone supplementation and performance. 

In this study, they found basically no difference between using the ketones or not using the ketones. Eight people who took the ketones had a non-significant faster time, but it wasn't significant. So, there wasn't that much of a difference, and two of them had a slower time. And then the perceived exertions, like how they felt was-- there was no difference in really anything. So, it really, really looks like exogenous ketones. 

Gin Stephens: If they were really magical and amazing, they would not have petered out like they have. People would just be taking more and more and more and having amazing results. And they wouldn't be speaking for themselves, kind of like fasting is doing. How fasting is continuing to grow and grow and grow. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. They're complete opposite.  

Gin Stephens: Right. I haven't heard-- But neither of us have heard of any questions about these for a long time because pum, pum, pum, it was just another thing they could sell you.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I already said it, but I'm restating, their summary of all of the studies to date that looked at basically athletic performance and exogenous ketones. Up until 2020, there was six of them, only one showed improvement, three showed neutral, and two showed negative effects. That is not a good rate. The very last thing, I don't know which study it was in, but I thought this was really interesting. One of the studies found that it was-- I don't even remember what it was testing. But I found that how people responded to exogenous ketones depended on their metabolic health. If people who had issues with their pancreas and their blood sugar regulation, all of that, did not have the same beneficial effects when they took the exogenous ketones, which to me, and this is just my thoughts on it. But to me, it says it's that whole energy toxicity thing. If your body's not handling energy well and you have too much energy, the last thing I think you want to do is be putting in pure energy. Not that it's the same thing as sugar. 

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's energy--. Its energy for the body.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I just have one more final thought that I wanted to say. The main people who are super big fans of exogenous ketones are the people who want to sell them to you. So, always think about that. If the person who like is extolling the benefits, also wants to sell them to you, then they've got a reason to tell you they're awesome. You don't hear people who are not trying to sell them to you talk about how great they are. That’s all I'm saying. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I think it was-- I don't want to misquote, but I have to go back and look, but it was definitely something about the metabolic health. I wrote a note that said “high blood sugar” that they had less of a beneficial response to exogenous ketones, but it was definitely the idea that if you're in a state of high energy, you want to make your own ketones, you don't want to be taking them. 

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad that you did that deep dive on the most recent information because it's been a long time since we talked about it, maybe like 2019 or something. 

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “Oh, this is going to be fun.” 

Gin Stephens: But it was even out yet.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. 

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad you didn't find the other and prove that they're amazing. [laughs] But they're not, so. 

Melanie Avalon: If I did, I went in completely open minded. 

Gin Stephens: You would have told the truth--. You would have told the truth, I know you would have. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, honestly, if it said that they're great, I probably have been like, “Hmm, maybe I will make my own ketones.”  

Gin Stephens: There you go, and you would start taking them.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it was almost shocking how much there's just not support for this. The only caveat, and to be honest, I didn't even go down this rabbit hole because there's just too much there. And the studies are so like niche. So, it might be for very specific health conditions, there might be a place for it. I encourage listeners, if they're interested in ketones, and they have a very specific health condition, epilepsy, even I don't know, I didn't research for the cancer connection, I probably will, because I want to do a blog post on this. But some cancers, I don't know, but I would encourage you to go on Google Scholar and look up your health condition and look up exogenous ketones and see if there's research on it, because there might be a benefit there.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, what really shaped my early thinking about it was hearing a podcast, and I don't listen to very many podcasts, ever. But it was Dr. Mark Mattson from Johns Hopkins and he's neurological expert brain stuff. I could not pull out who he was talking to, or find the source. But I remember, when I was still teaching. So, it was probably 2017 to 2018 because I remember listening to it on the way to school. I was like, at bus duty, trying to secretly keep listening to it. While no one could tell that I was listening to this, while also doing bus duty, [laughs] because I was so interested in it, because people were asking all the time, and I really wanted to learn the truth before I just started giving out advice, just like you just did. And he was like, very skeptical of taking in ketones in that way, just because that's not something we ever naturally do. They do not exist in nature in a way that you can consume them. He's like metabolically, we don't even really know what they're in there doing because that's not something you can go out and have some. He said he could imagine some biological pathways that made them actually harmful in the body, not just not helpful, but harmful. 

Melanie Avalon: I've even thought that a little bit about the MCTs, and this is the next step from that.  

Gin Stephens: It's not something you're naturally ever going to take in, in your daily life. It's like what are you going to do? I mean, drain someone's blood and drink them? I mean, no, don't do that. [laughs] I don't know how you would accidentally take them in. But there's no source of them around you naturally occurring, is my point. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm glad we had that conversation.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too. 

Melanie Avalon: It was fun. 

Gin Stephens: I'm glad you did that deep recent dive and came to the same conclusion that we came to a long time ago. 

Melanie Avalon: It's almost funny reading, like I said, the one that was looking at using it for stress. I don't know what's like driving it because they clearly really have a lot of hope for the therapeutic potential, but they're just not finding that in studies. So, I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: Well, you have a theoretical-- this could be so great, because and then you want to find support for that., and then it's disappointing not to. 

Melanie Avalon: So, yes.  

Gin Stephens: So, Ginny, save your money, woo.  

Melanie Avalon: I know, yay. 

Gin Stephens: Everyone save your money. And if someone wants to sell you something that say for fasting, tell them no on that too. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode236. And they will have a full transcript and they will also have links to all of the things, all of those studies we talked about. Everything. All right, anything from you, Gin, before we go? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I'm going to go out and walk on the beach some more. And my biggest question for the rest of the day is, do I eat the food I have here in the fridge or do I go out to eat? I haven't decided. There's a place that has like a really good steak. And for some reason I'm craving a steak. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh. I think that's very telling. There's probably a nutrient in the steak that you-- 

Gin Stephens: But then I'm like a little feeling lazy. I don't want to get in my car and drive down there. I need a steak but you're right. You just answered my question. I'm glad I asked it. [laughs] I'm going to go eat a steak and a baked potato. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would eat the steak. 

Gin Stephens: I know. That's where my plate went different from yours. [laughs] I'm going to drink a nonalcoholic beer and look at the water and eat a steak and have a baked potato. Now I'm really excited.  

Melanie Avalon: I would drink wine. Yeah, well, see, I'm driving. So, I won't.  

Gin Stephens: Well, have a fun time.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Oh, the next episode for listeners, teaser, is special. 

Gin Stephens: And I'm not going to be on it, which is weird, because I'm going to be out of town. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Should we say who? Actually, listeners probably know, I think I mentioned it. Yeah, we're going to have Robb Wolf. 

Gin Stephens: This has only happened one other time before when I was out of town and we had a special guest coming on, and I couldn't be there for it. But this is another example of that. And so, yeah, Robb Wolf. 

Melanie Avalon: Melanie fan girl person, I'm such a fan. So, we're going to do a deep dive into electrolytes and anything else that you guys want to ask Robb. 

Gin Stephens: Love it. And I'll be in Arizona, and I'm so excited. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I'm excited too. I will talk to you week after next. 

Gin Stephens: I know, two weeks, and I'll tell you about my trip to Arizona.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm excited.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Alrighty. Well, I will talk to you then. Safe travels. 

Gin Stephens: Thank you.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 17

Episode 235: Inspiring Family, Mystery Ingredients, Cold Brew Calories, Stevia, HCG Diet, Finding The Right Window, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 235 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Gat A FREE Holiday turkey in your first box!

FEALS: Feals makes CBD oil which satisfies ALL of Melanie's stringent criteria: it's premium, full spectrum, organic, tested, pure CBD in MCT oil! It's delivered directly to your doorstep. CBD supports the body's natural cannabinoid system, and can address an array of issues, from sleep to stress to chronic pain, and more! Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Gat A FREE Holiday Turkey In Your First Box!

4:15 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Introducing: The Delay, Don't Deny Community

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At Melanieavalon.Com/Serrapeptase!

22:45 - FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

25:30 - Listener Q&A: Jaime - DD Cold Brew Black 10 Calories Break Fast?

31:00 - Listener Feedback: Ryan - Spreading The Love And Lifestyle 

39:30 - Listener Q&A: Angela - Size Of Window To Lose Weight

44:15 - Listener Q&A: Belinda - Continuous Glucose Monitoring And Stevia

The Truth About Stevia, GERD and Hormone Imbalances, & the Fiber Debate

53:50 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

56:50 - Listener Q&A: Sheri - Feedback And Quick Question

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 235 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I’m here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don’t Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.commelanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 10- to 16-pound, humanely raised, free-range Turkey for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be supported by a company called ButcherBox. It is so, so important to us to buy high-quality meat that you can trust. It tastes better, it's more ethical, it's more sustainable, it's truly what benefits not only ourselves, but the planet. Friends. I've been doing a lot of research on transparency in the food industry and it is shocking what goes down. What you see on the shelves at the grocery store can be very misleading with practices that are not benefiting ourselves or the planet. So, if you're tired of searching for 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more, you've got to try ButcherBox. Their entire sourcing is actually done holistically. They keep the farmer, the planet, the animal, and your family all in mind to deliver products directly to you, cutting out the middleman of a grocery store to save you money, and get you quality meat and seafood that you can trust. 

Plus, their products taste amazing. Oh, my goodness, friends, I am a steak girl. ButcherBox filet is one of the best filets I have ever tasted in my entire life. I recently gave my family some of their grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and my mom told me it was the best ground beef she had ever tasted. My brother also adores their bacon. Yep, if you want pastured heritage-breed bacon that is sugar and nitrate free, you can get that at ButcherBox. I'm also a scallop girl, and their wild-caught scallops are delicious, and I can finally feel good about the transparency with that because friends, the seafood industry is very, very sketchy. A 2013 Oceana study found that one-third of seafood in grocery stores and restaurants was mislabeled. Farmed salmon is often labeled as wild salmon, and other fish species are just complete lies. It's honestly very shocking. 

Every month, ButcherBox members can get a curated selection of high-quality meat shipped straight to their home. Those boxes contain between 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type and what you want. They're packed fresh and shipped frozen with free shipping for the continental US. And friends, with the holidays upon us, how hard is it to find humanely raised, free-range turkeys without additives. Just go look at those turkeys at the grocery store and look at their ingredient list. It shouldn't be just turkey, it's not usually just turkey. They often plump up those turkeys at the grocery store to make them weigh more and those solutions are full of additives that you do not want in your body. But we've got you covered. Right now, ButcherBox is offering new members a 10- to 16-pound turkey for free in their first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive a free turkey in your first box. I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.  

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 235 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: I am so busy. 

Melanie Avalon: Why are you so busy? I know why, but tell me. 

Gin Stephens: I need to talk to my community first of all but you know we launched the Delay, Don’t, Deny Social Network in March, and it was my dream to have a community that was off of Facebook and amazing. When choosing a home for our community, we looked at everything that was out there that offered this type of platform and we chose a company that had high-end clients, a well-known university that everyone would know, their alumni association uses them and just amazing clients like that and they've been around for over 10 years. So, wouldn't you feel fabulous about choosing a company that's been around for over 10 years with top name clients?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I would. 

Gin Stephens: Well, [laughs] I actually have learned a lot over this process, and if you're choosing a technology company, you're better off choosing somebody who just started within recent times. That's all I'm going to say about that. That's a lie. I'm going to say more about that. But technology changes so quickly that we ended up stuck on a platform that had old infrastructure and I'm not a computer programmer. So, my lingo might be off, but I'm sure, Cal could explain it. But when he was working on his Window app and he was selling it, he was going through it and he's like, “Oh, man, this stuff I put in here back in I guess 2016, I'm having to redo and fix a lot of things because it's so clunky.”  

Well, 10 years of technology layered on top of technology, things were always breaking and glitching. The longer we used it, the worse it got. They would roll out an improvement and something else would break. I literally was losing sleep over it. We paid tens of thousands of dollars for this platform. I hate to say that out loud. It just was not working for the community. So, we're pivoting to a new platform and we're rolling over members now, moving people over, migrating them. So, people who are listening, it was really easy for the lifetime members and the monthly members. They were easier to move over because in lifetime, we just move them. Monthly members, very easy transition because they have less than a month left. But for the annual members, it's been a little trickier. So, we're waiting for a coupon code that we're getting from the platform and then we'll be moving everybody over. But those that have already made the transition, it's so much better. We have gifts, we can sort the feed, we can search. Everything we wanted to do that we couldn't do, our notifications work, it just all works.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's good.  

Gin Stephens: The saddest part is the community members that have been disappointed. They've been disappointed in me, offering a product that was not amazing like we wanted it to be, and I recognize, and I appreciate the disappointment and I own it. We made a bad choice. Anyway, I'm hoping people will forgive [laughs] the flaws that we rolled out the first time and know that we as soon as we realized that it was buggy, I started looking at other platforms. Even though we have a year contract with the other platform, we still have five and a half months left on that contract, and we're moving already. That tells you how important it was to me to make the transition. So, we've actually closed the old one to new members, and right now, nobody new can join.  

But by the time this episode comes out on October 18th, the new community will be completely open for new members. So, we're going to do the linking through ginstephens.com/community, because that'll be really easy for people to remember. ginstephens.com/community, that'll direct you to the new platform, and we're really hoping a lifetime [laughs] happiness at the new place. It's already been great. So, and again, I want to apologize to people who were less than blown away by the original experience. We've made some great connections there, but the technology was so frustrating. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's ironic, because often when people start new businesses or new things, that birthing period where there might be difficulties. It's ironic that you had the difficulties with such a well-established platform, and that it ended up being something newer that worked well. But I guess that makes sense with technology. It's like going with the younger people [giggles] who know more. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I told this analogy to one of my friends. I was like, “It's like the platform that we were using was invented by your granddad, who went to Harvard, [laughs] and the one we flipped over to was made by my son, Cal, who went to Georgia Tech and just graduated in 2019." It's just a little more hip with what people want, and the way features need to work. It's night and day. I'm still going to be providing support on the old DDD social network until the last member is there and we turn the lights off. So, I’m on both places right now. I don't want people to suffer one minute without the support that they want. But it's night and day, the two platforms, and we learned a lot, like I said, so. Once you make a mistake, you learn what not to do next time. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm very happy for you and we will put a link in the show notes. So, this link is ginstephens.com/community. 

Gin Stephens: That's it and it'll direct people to the new place and it's already hopping over there, and people are so happy. We're using GIFs left and right. I don't know. Do you like GIFs? Are you a GIFer? 

Melanie Avalon: I like texting them.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's just sometimes there's nothing better than a good GIF. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] They're nice ways to end conversations. When you're texting back and forth and you need that final thing that encapsulates the conversation.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, for listeners, the show notes for this show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode235 and we'll put links there to Gin's community.  

Gin Stephens: Awesome, thank you. What's up with you?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I am feeling the need to give the final Part 3 update to the Whole Foods guy saga. So, I think only the first episode is aired, where I told the story about how I went in and tried to talk to him and all the things. I don't think Part 2 has aired yet. Well, when this airs, Part 2 will have aired where I went up to him and asked him if he had a girlfriend. It's so funny that I posted a picture on my Instagram, because me and my sister and dad went to Hamilton, and it was me in this gorgeous dress. I was like, “Where am I going?” 20 people were like, "Whole Foods." [laughs] 

So, Part 3, I was mortified about having gone up to him and asking him with no context in the parking lot if he had a girlfriend, which he did. I hadn't seen him again and every time I would go to Whole Foods since then, I would nervously sit in the parking lot and be like, “Oh, please, please don't let him be there,” because I didn't want to run into him again. Last week, it was a Friday and I know he works on Fridays. I went in and I was like, “Please don't be there, please don't be there.” I thought he wasn't, and I thought I was good, and then I was walking to the register, and he was in between me and the register, and I was like, “Oh, crap.” [laughs]  

So, I turned around and I went to the wine section and I hid. I was like, “Maybe, I'll just camp out here. Maybe, he'll be gone.” I went around. I went the long way to circumvent and get to the self-checkout without going by him. I thought I was good, made to the self-checkout, and then he came up beside me at the self-checkout, and he goes, “Hi.” [laughs] I was like, “Oh, no.” 

Gin Stephens: See, you've got to just be confident and be like, “Hey, what's up?” 

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, I was like, “Hi,” and then I was like, “I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed.” He was like, “No, no, don't be,” and he was checking out beside me. I guess he was going on break. He was like, “How was your weekend?” I was like, “It was good. I saw Hamilton.” Then we just had some small talk and he was super nice. Then, at the end, he was like, “Well, it was nice talking to you again, bye,” and then he left. So, it's all good now. I can like walk in and not feel super awkward. 

Gin Stephens: Well, and also you should just be confident at all times, because honestly, he was so flattered by it, whether he has a girlfriend or not. Unless he's married, and even if he is, people are not married forever. Do not try to date someone who's married. That's not what I meant. [laughs] But I mean, even marriage is not always forever but dating someone is definitely not forever, yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, oh, wait. I forgot that is the first thing I said, because I was just in the moment. He was like, “Hi,” and I was like, “Hi, I'm so embarrassed.” He was like, “Don't be.” I was like, “Well, just let me know if anything changes,” [giggles] and that answers my question. I wasn't sure if this was a Cinderella situation, where he doesn't recognize me without makeup on but I was--  

Gin Stephens: But he does.  

Melanie Avalon: He does. He knows I'm the same person. 

Gin Stephens: And he knows you're interested. Again, if something ever goes wrong with the girlfriend, then you know. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so funny though. I've been getting so many messages from people and they're like, “How do you have time for a relationship?” I'm like, Wait, hold the phone. I'm not saying I want a relationship. I just wanted to go on a date. That's all. Just one date." [laughs]   

Gin Stephens: Hey, relationships can actually save you time, because Chad is going to the post office for me today.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.  

Gin Stephens: Of course, [laughs] We've been together for 31 years. So, ladies, if you run into him at Whole Foods, please do not try to go on a date with him [laughs] and we don't have a Whole Foods. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, that's my life. Yesterday, I saw the first draft of the label for my serrapeptase supplement. Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. I had a call with the supplement company, and then their design team. I created the-- because it's going to be called Avalon X like Avalon X. So, I sent them over what I wanted Avalon X to look like, which is basically my signature, and then the X is a DNA.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's cool.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it looks really cool. Then I told them the color scheme, but I wanted the rest of the bottle to look like. They had seven different versions, and oh, my goodness, I'm obsessed. The first one I saw, it's everything I could want. It's perfect. Well, it's not perfect work, tweaking it. It's really exciting. It's exciting. 

Gin Stephens: Really, when it just clicks with you, that's how I feel about the cover for Clean(ish). I did a lot of intense back and forth with them and it looks the way it looks now because of my input so far across from how it started. But now I love it so much. When you know that it's right, it's right. I can't make any suggestions like, “What if you move these words down here? I'm not a graphic designer, but why am I the one noticing this?" Anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: We're trying to lock down the final formulation. But I mentioned this last week, but it's shocking. It's shocking, the supplements because basically, I thought there was quite a few serrapeptase is without other ingredients in them and there aren't. So, we found two. They make it seem like there aren't other ingredients, but we're pretty sure they're lying. So, we're going to lab test them and figure out if they actually do contain other ingredients and we're pretty sure they do. I'm just learning so much. So, friends, I'm scared to take any supplements now, honestly. 

Gin Stephens: You've heard me say that before, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Unless it's Wade Lightheart. I think we know. Unless you know the person making it, right?  

Melanie Avalon: BiOptimizers.  

Gin Stephens: Right. But it's just unless you literally know, they could be totally lying. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, what they do with the serrapeptase is, they say enteric-coated serrapeptase. The ingredients will be enteric-coated serrapeptase. They'll be like pure serrapeptase, enteric-coated and in capsule. That enteric coating, they don't say what's in that and it's usually a laundry list of ingredients and it can include plastics and synthetic compounds, and that's how they tweak things. Then also, we've been reading a lot of documents by the FDA about supplements and basically, they have this list where you can use ingredient A and you can call it ingredient B, C, D, or E. For example, if it's a form of a palmitate and it is calcium palmitate or something, you can call it just straight up calcium when it's not. It's disconcerting. 

Gin Stephens: That's like when they hide things using the name like natural flavors or something. That could literally be anything. There's one big name brand of bottled cold brew coffee, and the ingredients are coffee, natural flavors. Well, we do not recommend that during the clean fast because of the natural flavors, just like you said, they could hide things under that name. They might have stevia in there and are calling it natural flavors, because they're allowed to hide things under the name natural flavors. We don't even know what it is. We know a lot of people have had problems with that. They're like, “I tried that one and it was delicious, then I was starving.” So, we were like, “We don't know what that is, it's a mystery ingredient.” It could be anything. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Even with the supplements, they legally don't even have to disclose-- If it's a minute amount, they don't even have to tell you. So, I'm becoming so passionate about this, and my thing is going to be full transparency about just everything.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm a fan of that.  

Melanie Avalon: So, listeners, if you'd like to get more information, we can get on my email list for it. It's at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Definitely get on that email list, because I'm going to be doing a preorder special. So, the price basically, probably won't ever be that low again. We already have way, way, way, way, way, way, way more people on the email list than I'm doing bottles for that first preorder. So, get on that list so that you can be one of the first people to order before it sells out when I release information about it.  

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I know that's exciting. Are you going to do more supplements down the road? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I want to see obviously how this goes. I anticipate that people are going to love it and it's going to do really well, but I obviously need to make sure that people like it and it's resonating. But if it does, basically every supplement I'm currently taking, I want to make my own version of it.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's smart to see because best-laid plans. I could talk about that all day again with the Delay, Don't Deny Social Network. It didn't turn out the way we thought it would, and said then we're having to pivot. So, I'm wishing you a smoother rollout and no pivoting. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's really nice because I was contemplating doing it all on my own, and I have a few really, really good friends in the supplement industry who were encouraging me to do that, but I decided to partner with an existing company and I feel so good about that, because I would not have been able to do all of this stuff like lab testing other companies. The guy I'm working with, his name is Scott at MD Logic, but we're just an amazing team. We just are on the same wavelength about everything and I've been so picky. He keeps bringing me with options, and I'm like, “Oh, but we can't do that, because of X, Y, Z,” and he gets it and he's fighting for me with the formulators and going to bat. So, it's been great.  

Gin Stephens: Hmm, does he ever go to Whole Foods? 

Melanie Avalon: He's married. [laughs] Happily married.  

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Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Jamie. The subject is "DD Cold Brew black, 10 calories break the fast?" Jamie says, "Hi. I have been googling trying to find a straight answer for this. But there seems to be disagreement as to whether or not 10 calories from the DD Cold Brew medium black will break or otherwise weaken a fast weekend. I feel like we haven't heard that phrase before. I like that. It appears that there may be protein present, which I did not expect when trying to see where the 10 calories come from. There are three carbs I believe as well. I'm fasting for weight loss, but I also need my caffeine in the morning as I'm on the road often. It helps to know for sure whether or not this is a good option for daily consumption. Thank you so much for any help you can provide." 

Gin Stephens: Here's the rule of thumb for coffee. So, as long as the only ingredients are coffee and water, you should be fine. It's when they start adding the mystery ingredients like natural flavors or there's one that has something in there called coffee extract, I don't know what that is. What is coffee extract? I don't need any extract of coffee in my coffee. I would just like some coffee. Here's my recommendation. Make your own cold brew if you're not sure, because then you know what's in it. It is not hard to make cold brew, and then take it with you, and it's better for the planet because you're not carrying around bottles of stuff that somebody else made. You can just use your little reasonable travel container and you're going to get it for pennies compared to what you would spend to buy it. That's what I would do. I would just make my own cold brew, super easy, take it with you on the road, have your caffeine, no mystery ingredients, boom. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, first of all, Gin, I just realized DD is Dunkin' Donuts. Just goes to show how much I go to Dunkin' Donuts. I like what you said a lot. I was just looking at the Dunkin' Donuts coffee that you can buy online, so the actual like coffee-coffee, and they just list coffee as the ingredients. But if you're finding it somewhere, I don't know, if she's actually at the store and is seeing that. 

Gin Stephens: That would be my hunch, that she's at Dunkin Donuts. But I don't know. Maybe, they have a bottled product. 

Melanie Avalon: In any case, if she's looking at it-- because what I'm looking at doesn't even have, they don't even mention the calories. But if she's looking at it and it's saying 10 calories and carbs, it's interesting that she thinks there might be protein present. I would really like to see this label, whatever label she's looking at, but it just goes to what you're speaking about earlier, in that it's hard to know. There could be something in there. So, I really Gin's suggestion of erring on the side of caution and yeah, making your own, just getting a source that you know is good. I personally actually use the Bulletproof coffee, Dave Asprey’s coffee. I've been using that for years and I really like it.  

Gin Stephens: Do you know, I just started using his Nespresso pods. They just came today. I was at my friend's house in Nashville, my friend, Michelle. Hello, Michelle. I had such a great time. By the way, Nashville is a-mazing.  

Melanie Avalon: Nashville's very beautiful.  

Gin Stephens: It is amazing. Anyway, we had a great time but she uses the Bulletproof coffee in Nespresso pods, and they're in a compostable little, I don't know, capsule.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was going to ask. So, is there plastic in them?  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's compostable. So, I don't know what it's made of, but I would figure Dave Asprey would be on the cutting edge of something that's better. [laughs] So, I felt really excited to try it at her house and I liked it. So, I bought some on Amazon. We are not sponsored by a Dave Asprey’s Bulletproof coffee, but it's not Bulletproof coffee, now I'm going to add MCT oil to it. It's the brand. Just like I buy Mayorga Cuban Roast, that is a brand. So, this is just the Bulletproof brand. It's just black coffee.  

Melanie Avalon: I've been using his coffee since years. I really like it. I just really like it. He's made it so known that he's so obsessed with the mold thing-- He doesn't have organic certification or anything like that, but I don't know. He just made it so clear what he feels about with the quality of his coffee that I feel very good purchasing it. I really like it. 

Gin Stephens: Well, there wasn't a good option for the Nespresso until I tried this, and I'm like, “I didn't even know he made this.” 

Melanie Avalon: That actually reminds me, one little last thing about my serrapeptase. I've mentioned this before as well, but haven't found any other serrapeptases in a glass bottle, and we're doing that because while reducing plastic, but if you think about it, a lot of these supplements will say that they are free of phthalates, which are a component of plastic. But a lot of them are sitting in warehouses and plastic bottles, in Amazon warehouses in the heat and plastic bottles. So, it's very likely with that high heat, compounds from the plastic are leaching into the environment or the supplements. So, we are using dark amber glass bottles. So, no plastics at all. Very excited. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The more you learn, the more you realize, wow, so many things to consider. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, shall we go back to the first thing we were going to talk about, which was some listener feedback?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have some listener feedback from Ryan. The subject is "Spreading the love and lifestyle." Ryan says, "Hello, ladies, Ryan from Ohio here. I just have to start by saying what a great thing I have stumbled upon with IF. I am 34. I've been fasting six days a week minimum, usually leaving Sunday open for family breakfast or early lunch. I'm a pretty typical guy working a day shift factory job. I'm a machinist at a large auto manufacturer in Central Ohio, and I actually got intrigued by a coworker who I would love to hear tell his story, but I doubt he would. Let's just say, he is a totally different person now.  

Back to me. 34, wife and three kids, working five to six days a week, cutting, splitting, hauling firewood at least two days a week. I started out around 215 pounds. I'm 5’5”, and clearly active, but I've been steadily gaining a few pounds a year for the past 15 years. So far, I've binged while working the entire IF podcast series. I just played Episode 230 and 231 this morning, and now have been bouncing back and forth between IF Stories and Melanie's Biohacking Podcast. My mind is blown."  

Gin Stephens: Yay.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. "And now, my best friend in firewood-cutting partner has started IF. His wife, now my mom after really noticing my face and stomach slowing down just since starting all of this at the beginning of July. I'm down 20 to 25 pounds, not really watching that, but today, my work pants are almost falling off my ankle, and my joint pain is nearly gone, I've had tendinitis for years in my ankles and elbows, my father-in-law just ordered Delay, Don't Deny on Amazon, and he's about eight years out losing 100 plus pounds after a gastric bypass, and since gaining back 40 pounds. He was very intrigued by it.  

My wife is doing it. She's been kicking around the idea of weight loss surgery for several years. She's been struggling with starting a new job after eight years of being a stay-at-home mom, and today is actually her 32nd birthday. Hopefully, if nothing else, you ladies can give some inspiration out for her to hear. She had a goal of losing 150 pounds at the last weight loss surgery appointment, and then COVID hit closing all the surgery centers for a while, once again pushing back that thing she needed in her head to get her head in the right direction. I want nothing more than to see her lose the weight and be where she wants to be so we can live our lives healthy and happy, and do all the things we've dreamed of doing.  

Thanks again, you two and several of your guests have really struck a chord with me, and made me look more at what I'm eating, and how different things make me feel different, and make fasting easier. Getting used to black coffee was the hardest part. But now, I really enjoy it and I drink a thermos full throughout the day while working. I'm sure I could do without and just drink water, but it definitely does not affect how I feel. So, why not, right? Fast on." 

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that email from Ryan. Loved it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you have some motivation for his wife? It sounds like everybody's on board, but his wife needs some inspiration. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I think that Intermittent Fasting Stories is likely where she's going to find some of her motivation, listening to people like her that have struggled. A lot of women tell their stories. Look, I know what it was like to be obese and feel hopeless, and be so tired of that yo-yo, up and down, up and down and feeling like there's nothing, I could do, to the point that I totally get, when I didn't weigh enough, I'm not sure what the cutoff is for weight loss surgery. But I know there was a time I was like, “Gosh, if I could just get weight loss surgery,” but I think at that time I didn't weigh enough and I'm like, “Well, if I gain more, I'll just have--“  

We think that's the answer. Intermittent fasting really is the answer for you. You just have to be ready. That's the thing about his wife, is that she's got to be ready. We can't be ready for her. Some people are stubborn like my family, for example. The more I push something on them, the less likely they want to do it. So, I just have to sit back and do my thing and not push it. If they want to do it, they will do it. Lead by example rather than by like, “Hey, do this, do this, do this.” If someone is not open to it, you can actually turn them off by trying too hard if that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that's a great thing. I'm really glad that you pointed that out, that didn't even occur to me to bring up that point. Something I was thinking about was, I was talking with a friend recently, and she was doing HCG actually to lose weight. Probably, people who do that, that is very effective.  

Gin Stephens: It's a low-calorie crash diet. Those always are effective until they ruin everything. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was going to say in a way, how can it not be when you're only eating 500 calories a day from basically just protein. But what's so interesting is she's a long, long, long time listener of the shows. She wanted my advice about everything, and she was like-- She wanted advice about how to do HCG, and what to do after that, and I was like, “Well, have you tried fasting?” I just assumed that she had because she's been listening to the show for so long. She said something to the effect of like, “Yeah, but--" She's like, “I can't do it. I'll be hungry.” She's with HCG, I'm not even hungry. Basically, she could not understand how fasting could be easy. It didn't seem possible that it could be that easy. 

Gin Stephens: I think the HCG is a placebo, literally. I think all the stuff they tell you about, "Here's why it's so much--" No, I think that the “science” behind it is placebo, and that if you feel great, it's because you're in ketosis. She's already fasting. Here's what I would do for her. She's already doing down days one after the other. So, if I were her, what I would do is completely never do HCG again. I'd burn that down completely, and have a 500-calorie day than an update, then a 500-calorie day, then an up day. Why do I say that? Because she needs that metabolic boost of the up days. She needs to do ADF and it's going to be painless for her. She's already used to down day down, day down, day down, day down day. So, all she should do is just throw up days in between and she'll rev back up her metabolism and not have this yo-yo. Look, I was on that HCG roller coaster. I did it. It worked. I regained all of it and more. I ruined my metabolism. Luckily, I ate like crazy after that and I think I fixed my metabolism, but-- 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said that because I'm going to specifically recommend to her ADF.  

Gin Stephens: Tell her Gin said.  

Melanie Avalon: Really quick. My thoughts on HCG, I think a lot of it is placebo. I have gone and tried to find studies on the actual controlled studies on it, because I understand the mechanism of action that they're proposing. I understand that they're saying this hormone, it's basically that catalyst you need to unlock the fat stores when you're in a severe deficit. The reason you're not hungry regardless of if the HCG is the magical thing that's encouraging this more, either way, when people aren't hungry, I think it's probably because they're tapping into their fat stores in ketosis, like you said. So, that's what I told her. I was like, “Fasting is going to do the exact same thing.” It's the same mechanism of action, because her crazy fear was that she was going to be hungry while fasting, and I was trying to show her that the reason she's not hungry on HCG is because she's tapping into her fat store, likely being ketogenic, that's going to happen when she fast. The only difference is that she does like an eating window with a bigger meal, and she's getting that refeeding stimulus, the nutrition, she doesn't have to restrict when she eats. So, it's like the best of both worlds.  

All of that to say, I think this is just some inspiration. I think people's fears about fasting, it's like, once you just bite the bullet and just try it, your body adapts, and it turns out to be for so many people the thing that works. You think you need to do HCG, you think you need to do gastric bypass, you think there's got to be some crazy thing that you need to do. But really, this can do it. This can do it in a healthy way, a sustainable way, a delicious way. So, maybe that's a little bit of motivation. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think so too. So, we have a question from Angela and the subject is "Size of window to lose weight." Angela says, "Hello, I love your podcast and I've ordered all your books, Gin’s and Melanie's, and listened to your podcast every week. I'm so happy for the information so I can answer my husband's comments because he is definitely a calories in, calories burned person. I have just started IF two weeks and my question is, do you have to have a one-hour eating window to lose weight?" No. [laughs] I'm just going to throw that in there right now. No. She says, "I weigh 188, would like to lose approximately 40 to 48 pounds. I'm 64 and I have type 2 diabetes. I've been on every diet since I was about 30 years old. So, I'm very excited to make IF a lifestyle for me. Thank you so much." 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for your question, Angela. Actually, just tying her excitement back into our previous question, that's another nice reframe. Instead of being nervous about IF, or seeing it as a challenge, or something that might be hard, maybe you can reframe with excitement for all of the amazing things that you know it can bring you, which Angela clearly has this excitement. So, that's very exciting. 

Well, Gin already answered this, but do you have to have a one-hour eating window to lose weight? No. Do some people do better losing weight with a one-hour eating window? Yes. Do some people not do better with a one-hour eating window to lose weight? Yes. Basically, there's a lot of factors involved. I don't think it's so much about especially, because there's only 24 hours in a day. There's only so much flexibility people have an eating window and what I mean by that is, if you eat all in one hour compared to two hours, what is the practical difference there, one hour to two hours to three hours to four hours? True, maybe, a one- or two-hour eating window is much different than an eight-hour eating window. I think the bigger factors that are involved aren't so much the time as having the consistency of your eating window, and then what is the eating window that doesn't cause you to overcompensate-- basically, the eating window that keeps you feeling satisfied, so you don't go into any sort of cycle where you can't sustain it, because it's not providing the nourishment that you need in a window that works for you to be something consistent. Then on top of that, the actual foods that you eat in that window, I think are so, so huge. So, for me, personally, if I had to choose between a one hour eating window of processed standard American food, super high calorie, not as nourishing compared to a longer window with more whole foods, less additives, less processed, I would definitely choose the longer window with the whole foods approach. So, yeah. It’s basically, it's very individual, it's not necessarily more magical if it's one hour, it really depends on a lot of things. What are your thoughts, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I noticed, I'm big on words. Angela said, she's ordered all of our books, so I bet she hasn't read them yet. So, Angela, once you get Fast. Feast. Repeat, go ahead and flip right to the 28-day, FAST Start chapter and read that first, and that'll help you figure out how to structure your eating window. Then, go back to the eating window chapter and read that one, because I talk a lot about window link. Personally, a one-hour eating window is not sufficient for me day after day after day to get enough food in my body.  

Last week, before I went to Nashville, I was so busy. I had three days in a row where I barely had time to eat, and I had a one-hour window for three days in a row. By that third day, I was in such deep ketosis that I didn't even sleep. So, I was like, "I've got to have an up day." [laughs] My body was telling me I don't know how many calories I ate, but it wasn't enough for my body. Of course, I'm not a counter, but I knew it wasn't enough. Because of the way I was in deep, deep, deep ketosis.  

So, one hour a day is just not enough food for me. I couldn't do that day after day after day after day, and I wouldn't recommend it because our bodies are more likely to adapt if you do the same thing exactly the same thing, day after day. Even with the metabolic benefits of fasting, you still want to be cautious. So, not only do you not have to have a one-hour window to lose weight, I wouldn't recommend it as your preferred, like "Here's the best thing." I'm not ever saying it's the best thing that everybody should do. No. How's that? 

Melanie Avalon: That's great. All right. So, question from Belinda. The subject is "Continuous glucose monitoring and stevia." The reason I wanted to include it was I think it speaks to a little bit of a misconception people might have about something we've talked about which is ZOE, because she doesn't even mention continuous glucose monitors in the question, but you will understand once I read it. 

So, Belinda says, "Hi, guys. First of all, I love your show, and I appreciate all the information. I know you guys often talk about the ZOE app, and I finally decided to do it. However, after filling out the survey on their website, I learned they don't offer it in my state of New Jersey. I was wondering if you could recommend a similar setup that is affordable and comparable."  

Before we go to the next question, we can just answer that one. I think some people might be getting confused because we've talked a lot about ZOE, and I think they think it's main thing is that it's a continuous glucose monitor, like that's its purpose, just because of her subject line. So, ZOE is not just a continuous glucose monitor. If all you wanted was a continuous glucose monitor, I don't think we would recommend ZOE because that's not its main thing. ZOE, that we've talked about that, Gin and I have both done, I'm still waiting on my results, I'm so excited. Oh, by the way, Gin, I literally still think about those muffins and how delicious, like, “Oh.” Actually, I dreamed about them last night.  

Gin Stephens: You're a weirdo. Weirdo.  

Melanie Avalon: I dreamed about them last night.  

Gin Stephens: And I mean that in a loving way everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. Everybody knows I am. Well, other people agree that they were delicious. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, nobody's ever told me that. But I believe you. I believe people. I did not find them too delicious. Maybe because I eat real muffins now. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. In any case, what ZOE is, it's a gut microbiome test. It's a test where you eat these specially formulated muffins that taste delicious. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Or not. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I think they taste delicious. They're made of different macronutrient breakdowns of carbs and fat. You wear a continuous glucose monitor if you so choose. Not everybody even wears a continuous glucose monitor. You do a self at-home blood prick after eating the muffins to see how your body clears sugar and fats. If you are wearing the monitor, the CGM, you continue to wear that, and basically-- I can't wait to get my results. But they tell you basically how your body processes carbs and fat, and how different foods might affect you, and all that. So, it's an entire comprehensive program. It's not just a continuous glucose monitor.  

If you want just a continuous glucose monitor and you want to actually be able to see data on that, like granular data, you want to get either NutriSense or Levels that we've talked about before. So, Belinda, those are two sources for you. We can put links in the show notes for all of that. So, that answers her first question. 

Her second question, she says, "Also in the past, I was not losing weight with fasting until I finally went to alternate day fasting modified." What is modified alternate day fasting, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's the 500-calorie down day.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, right. Instead of a complete 24-hour fast.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it would be a 36 hour fast, not 24.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Right. But fasting that entire 24-hour day. 

Gin Stephens: It's like two sleeps. You go to bed, wake up, go to bed again, and then the next day is your up day. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. She says, "It finally kick started me until losing about a pound a week and then I went to a restricted eating window, which also didn't work unless I cut my hours down to about a five- to six-hour eating window. My husband was doing it with me and in the past when we have dieted together, he has always lost more weight than me. But unfortunately, he has pretty much stayed the same way over two to three months. I know clean fasting is essential, and I have done that. However, he still uses stevia and his morning coffee. It's supposed to be a natural type of artificial sweetener, and many other people still lose weight using this. Do you think this small thing could be the reason why he has lost no weight? Thank you so much in advance, Belinda."  

Gin Stephens: All right, Melanie, predict my answer.  

Melanie Avalon: I think you're going to say yes.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm going to say yes. Belinda, he is not fast and clean because of the stevia. So, I want you to think about what we said before about clean fasting and the cephalic phase insulin response. Dr. Jason Fung in The Obesity Code says-- this is what slapped me upside the face and gotten me to finally get rid of stevia. It's when he said that stevia causes a greater cephalic phase insulin response than table sugar. He said that in The Obesity Code. It's all about how your tastebuds perceive what's going in. We know stevia is actually sweeter than table sugar. So, all the time that your husband is drinking that coffee with the stevia in it non-stop, his brain is thinking, "Here comes some calories," even though it doesn't have calories, our brains don't understand that we've now come up with this amazing low calorie, zero calorie, artificial sweetener. Our brains don't understand that. Our brains are like, “Oh, sweetness. That means something's coming in, it's going to raise my blood glucose. So, I'm going to need to release some insulin," and you have an insulin response. So, you're going to have insulin response constantly from the little bit of coffee with stevia. Little bit of coffee with stevia, your brain continues to pump out that insulin in response to the sweet taste that you keep having over and over and over again. So, he really needs to just switch to black. He can do it. He can do it. I promise. He needs to rip off that band aid, hold his nose, drink the black coffee. In two weeks, his taste buds will be adjusted and he will be used to it, I promise.  

Melanie Avalon: I would definitely recommend cutting out the stevia and then, if he still doesn't lose weight, that's when I think really looking at food choices and things like that might be helpful. I will put a link in the show notes. I wanted to include this question because Noelle Tarr and Stefani Ruper, their show, Well-Fed Women, their most recent episode, Noelle did the deepest dive in stevia I have ever heard. I applaud her. I'm actually really, really, really good friends with Noelle. But it was Episode Number 342 of Well-Fed Women, and she talks about every study on stevia that there is. Her discussion of it is actually more in the context of eating, not in the context of fasting, because it does seem that with food that it possibly has, depending on the context, beneficial effects on regulating insulin production, but I don't think that necessarily extends to fasting, because people often say that stevia lowers blood sugar, but it's possible that it's doing that because it's releasing insulin to lower the blood sugar.  

Well, what's interesting though in favor of stevia while eating, this is something that Noelle talks about, it seems to have that effect beneficially, and it's like an adaptogenic way when you're eating. So, basically, I don't know how it knows. I need to go read the studies that she was talking about. But it seems that it has a beneficial effect if you are in a high blood sugar carb situation. It helps compared to when you're not, it doesn't have that effect. I don't know. it seems to have a pretty cool effect. But this is all in the context of eating. 

So, when you're fasting, that's a different story. Even if the actual mechanisms of it are not releasing insulin, there's always that psychological component of tasting something sweet. Even though, weirdly enough, she quoted a study that looked at fasted intake of stevia compared to other different artificial sweeteners and I think it didn't have that effect psychologically, but I just don't think you can make a blanket statement about that. There is the sweet taste and I think certain people are most likely going to respond to that. So, keeping the fast clean like Gin said can be so, so, so key. So, yes.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I just think it's transformational. For me, I used stevia all the way through, because I just was also in that calories in, calories out mindset until I read The Obesity Code and I was like, “Oh, it's insulin. Hello.” But I started to regain weight. I had regained eight of the pounds I'd lost because basically I was doing a low-calorie diet when I was having the stevia all the time. I wasn't fasting clean. As soon as I stopped the stevia, I lost the eight pounds I had regained, and I've been maintaining ever since. And also, that's when my allergies went away. It wasn't till I started fasting clean. It's also when I stopped white knuckling my fasts.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Have him take the clean fast challenge. Tell him to give it six weeks, and then he can experiment with the stevia and see what happens. He won't go back to it if he gives it six weeks. 

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. So, if he cuts it out and he's still struggling to lose weight. report back and we'll troubleshoot that.  

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Melanie Avalon: This question is from Sherry. The subject is "Feedback and a quick question." So, she has some feedback as well. She says, "Hi ladies, I love, love, love this podcast. You to take the fear and worry out of fasting and make me feel like I can easily live an IF lifestyle. I also listen to Melanie's Biohacking Podcast, and I love the way she will interview so many people with differing opinions, but never with an attitude of right or wrong, always with a sense of curiosity." Well, thank you, Sherry. She says, "I also listen to if stories when I need inspiration." Well, that's perfect, because, Gin, you're recommending that earlier for inspiration. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it is so inspirational. I'm inspired every time I talk to somebody else. 

Melanie Avalon: That's fantastic. Perfect. She says, "I have read Delay, Don't Deny and Fast. Feast. Repeat, and some of the books Melanie recommends as well. I just finished Atomic Habits. It changed my life. My quick question is this. I understand that teas like chamomile break my fast as they create an insulin spike. Does chamomile create an insulin spike? 

Gin Stephens: It's not a bitter flavor profile. It's sweet.  

Melanie Avalon: She says, "I'm wondering if I've just eaten and my insulin is up and doing its thing with my meal, I am one meal a day. Will having a cup of chamomile extend the digestion time or rather the time it takes to get me back into fat burning mode. I hope that makes sense. Keep up the awesome work, you two.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wouldn't think it would be a problem at all at any point during your eating window. Because remember, you're eating so your body is releasing insulin, you're not in fat burning mode. You've already got a lot going on where your body's digesting the food you just ate. So, drinking the tea at that point, it's not going to cause giant amounts of insulin in it to be secreted. So, it's going to have a negligible effect. It's not the same as if you're deep in fat burning mode and then you have something sweet. So, yeah, have it. Have it during your eating window as much as you want. 

Melanie Avalon: It brings up something I'd like to draw attention to which we've talked about this before. But basically, when you're in the eating window, you're eating. You're in the fed state, insulin is supposed to be released, it's doing its thing, especially adding in something noncaloric like chamomile shouldn't be a problem at all. I just want to clarify, that's not the same thing though as, "Oh, since I'm in the eating state, if I just keep eating more and more and more, it doesn't matter because I'm in the eating state." That's not actually not the same thing.  

The only reason I'm clarifying is with sugar or carbs, for example, just because you're in the eating state, everything that you take in is going to have to be processed at some point. So, bringing in more and more and more, your body's going to have to deal with that still. But compared to something noncaloric like chamomile, it should be completely fine.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's an excellent point. Just because you're in your eating window doesn't mean unlimited ice cream [laughs] although ice cream is delicious. There was one day I was in Nashville, we walked by this ice cream place that I love and it was just after noon, and Nashville is a different time zone. So, I'm like, "I am opening my window with ice cream at 12:15 on a Saturday." 

Melanie Avalon: Were you starving after that? I would be starving. 

Gin Stephens: No, ice cream doesn't make me starving. I guess it's the fats and sugar together. Ice cream doesn't make me starving. Now, I had something like a donut, I probably would have been, I don’t know. Ice cream is just really satiating for me. It goes back to that ZOE individuality, again. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You know what's really interesting about that?  

Gin Stephens: What? 

Melanie Avalon: I like in my head can appreciate the thought of a lot of delicious things, especially things like cake. I love thinking about paleo or keto versions of red velvet cake or Funfetti. I really only think about those when I've already eaten. So, like the whole dessert concept. After I've eaten my meal, I'm like, “Oh, it would be nice to have a keto, paleo red velvet cake or Funfetti cake at this moment.” I never crave that breaking my fast. When I'm ready to break my fast my body's like, “I want protein.” I would much rather eat just a slab of chicken honestly. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we were going to have an amazing brunch later, and I knew that, we had brunch coming up at 2:30. We had reservation at this amazing place. Man, it was good. My friend, Michelle, knows food. We basically ate our way through Nashville. It was fabulous. Ice cream, and then-- So, I basically had one meal a day, but I had my dessert first.  

Melanie Avalon: Really quick story. I was a fine dining server. I think I've told this story before. I was a fine dining server for five or six years. One time in that five or six years, a family came in and they all ordered their dessert first. 

Gin Stephens: And then, did they eat their meal?  

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.  

Gin Stephens: Well, you know what, you want to save room for dessert?  No, we're not going to save room for dessert. We're going to start there. 

Melanie Avalon: It was so interesting. They were like, “This is what we do.” They're like, “Can we see the dessert menu?” I was like, “Okay.” They're like, “We are dessert for.” I worked at a steakhouse. So, it was like, they ordered their dessert and I had to go back to the kitchen and be like-- the kitchen was so confused because if you've been a server before you put in the order an order, they were like, “You screwed this up.” Because I put it in for the dessert to go out first and then the steak. They're like, “What are you doing?” I was like, “That's what they want.” [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Well, it makes sense. I had my delicious ice cream to open my window and we walked with it. We were on our walk. So, we walked there, and walked back to her house. We're eating and walking. [laughs] But it was fabulous, and then I was ready. I was ready for our brunch, and then it was amazing, and then I closed my window, and that was it. 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and then our main account is @ifpodcast. So, yes, I think that is all the things. Any thoughts from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: Nope, that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Sep 05

Episode 229: Serrapeptase, Burning Alcohol As Energy, Poor Fasted Sleep, Too Much Fasting, Over-Restriction, Donating Blood, Properly Fueled ADF, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 229 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BIOPTIMIZERS:  Go To masszymes.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off Any Order! plus the chance to get more than $50 worth of supplements for free!

3:45 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Spoon-Fed: Why Almost Everything We’ve Been Told About Food Is Wrong (Tim Spector)

The Diet Myth: Why the Secret to Health and Weight Loss Is Already in Your Gut (tim Spector)

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase!

18:45 - Listener Q&A: Anonymous - Body Burning Alcohol for energy

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

26:20 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

29:20 - Listener Q&A: Sarah - Waking up feeling exhausted during ADF

Natural Force Organic Pure C8 MCT Oil

Adrenaline Dominance: A Revolutionary Approach to Wellness (Michael Platt, MD)

46:15 - PREP DISH: Get A Free 2 Week Trial With The Paleo, Keto, And The September Freezer Meal Challenge At prepdish.com/ifpodcast!

48:05 - Listener Q&A: Evelyn - NSV and donating blood Question 

56:35 - Listener Q&A: Stephanie - 4:3 Window

#171 – Steve Austad, Ph.D.: The landscape of longevity science: making sense of caloric restriction, biomarkers of aging, and possible geroprotective molecules

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 229 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.  

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get $50 worth of some of our favorite supplements all for free. Yes, for free. A really good question to ponder is, can you avoid all digestive issues by only eating organic whole foods? Don't I know that this would be absolutely amazing? But sometimes, it's not exactly possible. Our natural ability to digest food actually declines as we age. This is because our body produces fewer enzymes, which are the proteins responsible for digesting food. Fewer enzymes means more difficulty digesting food, and even organic whole foods don't necessarily provide enough enzymes to properly digest them. This is especially true if you cook your food because cooking kills enzymes. This is why you may have digestive problems even after a healthy meal. Your body just can't produce enough enzymes to get the job done. 

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And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.  

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 229 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I am packing up to go spend three weeks at the beach. 

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting. 

Gin Stephens: It’s the longest I've ever been away from home. Chad just realized that I'm leaving tomorrow, he's known that I was going but he's like, “Wait a minute. Three weeks is a really long time.” I'm like, “Sorry.”  

Melanie Avalon: Is it the longest, really?  

Gin Stephens: It's the longest I've ever been away from him, yeah. Our whole married life. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.  

Gin Stephens: It just worked out. We got to have a lot to do with the house and in between rentals and lots going on, and also got friends coming. I didn't go for the entire month of July, because the house was rented. I only spent one week there in June. So, I grabbed these three weeks in August for myself, and I have a lot to do, like I said. So, I'll be very, very busy, but I've got a couple of friends coming down, one, then she's leaving, then and others coming, then she's leaving, then Will's going to come and spend some time with me. I'll be doing a lot of recording while I'm there too. My regular podcast recording schedule is still happening.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure it will be super fun and productive.  

Gin Stephens: It will but Chad is going to miss me. So, he's already let me know. Yeah, I think it's going to be awesome. I'm very excited. The ocean is very warm in August. So, that's nice.  

Melanie Avalon: I love the Atlantic, the warm Atlantic.  

Gin Stephens: I'm going to get in the ocean every day. I like to get in the ocean and jump around with the waves. It's like a really great workout. Like really.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree. I'm an Atlantic Ocean person. I feel that people are either Atlantic or Pacific.  

Gin Stephens: Or, you might be Gulf of Mexico. Some people are Gulf of Mexico. I am not.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I am.  

Gin Stephens: You’re Gulf of Mexico? You'd like the calm?  

Melanie Avalon: It is just what I-- growing up, that's where we went.  

Gin Stephens: That's what it all boils down to.  

Melanie Avalon: At whatever beach you went to growing up. 

Gin Stephens: Guess where I went, Myrtle Beach. That's where my grandmother took me. [laughs] So, that's where I go. We found a picture that-- my mother came to visit us, a couple weeks ago, and she brought some old photos that actually a cousin on my granddaddy's side gave us pictures we'd never seen before. Because they were like my aunt, my old, old aunt and my granddaddy's side had them. So, we'd never seen them. It was some pictures from my mother was little, and right down there where we bought our house, like 10 minutes away from where we bought our house, my mother, and my uncle, and my grandparents were there in the 50s. Actually, I guess it was the early 50s. Maybe, right even before my house was built that I'm in, that was built in 1956, 10 miles away, it's really fun. We have vacation routes in this area. So, no wonder I love it. 

Melanie Avalon: [giggles] I love that. 

Gin Stephens: So, what's new with you?  

Gin Stephens: I have two exciting announcements. I was just looking at the calendar, though. One of them will have already happened. But all the more reason friends to be on my email list, because if you missed this, you would have known about it. You can get on my email list at melanieavalon.com/email list, although, I might also send an email through our email list because it's relevant. I'm doing a Q&A with the people at Zoey.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that.  

Melanie Avalon: Not like an interview for my show. We're going to do a live Zoom, because I've been getting a lot of questions about Zoey--  

Gin Stephens: In the Facebook group?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm, yeah, and people. Well, people loving it, but then also people a little bit confused about the recommendations, and just wanting some clarity. I sent those questions all over to them, and they were super great. A, they got me very detailed answers, but then they said they would prefer just doing a live thing and talking to people. So, that should be super fun. One of the main things that people were, I guess, curious about was it seemed like a lot of the food recommendations were very similar. I mean they are. They say they are, but it's evolving and that they're working on making it more personalized. 

Gin Stephens: Even though the foods might be similar as far as recommendations go, the scores are different. That's what I noticed working with the moderators of my Facebook groups and the social network, the friends of mine who went through it that are moderators, comparing our scores, like we would put in the same meal just out of curiosity and see what our individual scores were, and the scores were very varied. Even though the same foods are scoring typically higher, the combination would get a different result. That was what was fascinating, we didn't get the same exact number.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Even though we were both putting in the same-- we would even check brand names and things. Somebody's like, “Oh, look, this scores 99 for me on Zoey," and someone else would put it in and it would not be a 99.” 

Melanie Avalon: I haven't done Zoey. I wonder if it'd be more appropriate if I do it first before. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's a thought. Remember, you got to eat those muffins. You've got to do it for science.  

Melanie Avalon: But it's just one day, right?  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember and it's always changing. It might have been two days of muffins, but then what they're doing right now is even different from when I did it because, just like you said before, it's always evolving. This is really research in action. They're not just like a program you buy, and here's the program. They are actually doing scientific research. They published something in the journal, Nature, which is a very well-renowned scientific journal recently. So, they're evolving their recommendations and everything about it based on as they learn, as the science evolves. 

Melanie Avalon: I might email them. I might see if they would prefer me to do it first. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a great idea. Also, I have a friend, they actually asked her to do it again, like they're comparing data. As part of the study, they said, “We would like for you to go through it again with your-- just to see.”  

Melanie Avalon: I also finished Tim Spector’s book because I'm interviewing him in less than a month as well.  

Gin Stephens: Isn't he wonderful?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I guess, just from what I'd seen from the feedback about Zoey from my audience, I was anticipating it to be much more not open to something-- His section on meat, for example, he was very much clear that most long-lived populations eat meat and very clear on what might actually be going on with that, and he was also-- I loved his perspective on salt. I loved his perspective on wine and alcohol.  

Gin Stephens: Can I pop in something real quick that confuses a lot of people about Zoey?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Just because something doesn't score 100, doesn't mean you're not supposed to eat it. That was just an example. We tend to want to gamify and beat our scores, and if this scores a 90, then I should try to get a 95. People can mistakenly think that a meal that includes meat the Zoey scores 75 and that means you shouldn't eat meat, but that's not what it's saying. We follow their recommendations and follow their program. They don't tell you that all your meals should score above a 90. So, people mistakenly think that they're being guided to not eat meat at all, when really that is them looking at numbers and thinking I want to get 100. We were trained to get 100 in school. Getting 100 is what you want. Always a 100. That might be something Zoey could keep in mind maybe for feedback, because we're so trained, it's ingrained in our psyche, the goal should be 100. That's not how they want you to live your life and I'm glad that you got that sense from reading Spoon-Fed. 

Melanie Avalon: I thought it was going to be not as nuanced in his perspective on the things I just mentioned, meat, salt, alcohol. The things I learned in the alcohol chapter, I've learned so much. Just things I didn't realize, like the recommendations for alcohol intake between different countries, I knew it was different but it's shockingly different. Then, the correlations to health just don't line up. He said in Chile, the recommendation-- which I tried to verify this and I couldn't find this number this high, so, I'm not sure where this was coming from. But he said in Chile the maximum recommended intake is the equivalent of six glasses per day. Then in the UK, I think now it's like zero or something, but they have the worst health-- It's just really, really interesting. Not saying that alcohol equals health automatically, but he definitely creates a really nuanced picture. 

Gin Stephens: But also, you can't go by recommendations as equating for health. Just because they recommend, they have zero in the UK, I don't think the UK is following that recommendation. Just because they recommend zero and have terrible health doesn't-- you know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a very valid point. He even said some pretty what I thought were very controversial things about the role of alcohol in pregnancy. I was like, “Oh, did not anticipate this.” I'm really excited to interview him. 

Gin Stephens: He's a scientist. He's looking at that info, and he's not always telling you what is politically correct to say.  

Melanie Avalon: It was something to the effect of drinking during pregnancy-- I'm sure there was more context about the amounts and everything. But basically, it very rarely actually creates issues in the child. But again, don't quote me on that. Read the chapter.  

Gin Stephens: It's been a long time since I read it. I read it when it first came out, and I haven't read it since. Maybe, I should go back and read it. I think it's on my Kindle. I think that's how I bought it. If not, I'll get it on my Kindle, and I'll read it on the beach.  

Melanie Avalon: It's Spoon-Fed. I haven't mentioned the title yet. So, for listeners, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. 

Gin Stephens: And his other book, The Diet Myth, is really good too.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to try to read it if I have time before interviewing him.  

Gin Stephens: But just keep in mind. It was several years older. He evolves his thinking. But I learned a lot. It was way early in my-- we're all different. Opening up of my mind, it was really early. I read it in maybe--0 it was either 2015 or 2016. So, it was well before I wrote Feast Without Fear. It really is what got me thinking and it was like a foundational-- just like The Obesity Code was foundational for me, so was The Diet Myth by Tim Spector. 

Melanie Avalon: We might start production this week on the serrapeptase supplement. So, listeners get on my email list for that. I have an email list just for that supplement. It's at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, and we're going to do a preorder special and the prices will probably not be that low ever again. I say this every time but basically serrapeptase is an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state. It breaks down residual proteins in your body. So, it really addresses anything that-- or it can address anything that is from a protein buildup or your immune system reacting to proteins. So, arthritis, inflammation, brain fog, fibroids. An article just came out in June, and I haven't read all of it yet, it actually talks about the role of serrapeptase to treat COVID. 

Gin Stephens: I saw that somewhere. Eating up the proteins, I actually saw something related to COVID and serrapeptase. I wondered if that's where you were going with that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably.  

Gin Stephens: It wasn't that article I sent you, was it?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I just saw this yesterday.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, then it wasn't. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but I haven't sat down and read every serrapeptase study that I can find. So, I need to actually do that. I'm really excited too.  

Gin Stephens: You'll be like the world's premier expert on serrapeptase.  

Melanie Avalon: The few studies I've read, it's just so overwhelmingly clear that it has so many health benefits, and it's really appreciated in countries like Japan and here, it's just not even-- People are just not aware about it. One of the studies I was reading, it was saying that it rivals NSAIDs for its effectiveness without any of the side effects of NSAIDs. 

Gin Stephens: Just to be clear, we're not hinting that it's going to prevent or reverse or COVID or anything like that. But what it does is, it breaks down proteins, and so that's an interesting thought. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, I'll report back next week after I've read the whole study about what it actually says. Because I think it talks about a few different mechanisms of action. In any case, I'm creating my own brand. I've been taking it for years, different brands, but I'm just going to create my own. So, the two emails to get on are melanieavalon.com/emaillist and melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. The show notes by the way will be at ifpodcast.com/episode229, and I'll put links. We've already talked about so much to everything there. Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started, and we have a question from Anonymous. Bum, bum, bum  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for some feedback.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. It's feedback. Yes, and the subject is "Body burning alcohol for energy." Anonymous says, “Hello, and thank you for your podcasts. On Episode 225, you answered a burning question I've had for years about the body using alcohol as a fuel source. I know someone who fasts daily and eats only dinner. He's very lean and well defined, although, he does not lift weights or exercise. In fact, he's disabled. However, he drinks beer all day long.” Now, this is just me interrupting. I would not consider that fasting all day. Beer has plenty of fuel in it.  

Melanie Avalon: Beer actually has carbs as well. It's not just pure alcohol.  

Gin Stephens: He's definitely not fasting. I just wanted to get that out there just in case. Let's say someone was listening and they-- 

Melanie Avalon: And stopped listening?  

Gin Stephens: Right. If he's drinking beer all day long, he is not fasting, not even close to fasting. She continues to say, “I always wondered why he doesn't gain significant weight while adding fuel to his body. This couldn't possibly be fasting.” That's her who said that but you're correct, Anonymous. All right, let's keep going. “Then you posited that in theory, one could drink alcohol and burn more calories taking in as alcohol isn't stored as fat. So, I suppose then my friend is the realization of this theory. While I wouldn't want to replicate his pattern of eating or drinking, it makes sense to me now why he is so lean and still dirty fasting. Thank you for your thoughts. It helps bring so much into perspective.”  

Again, I really don't like the words ‘dirty fasting,’ because I really don't think it's true. We like to have the opposites. If there's something called clean fasting, there must be something called dirty fasting? I actually think the opposite of clean fasting is you're not fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Not fasting.  

Gin Stephens: Right. The only reason I say clean fasting is because so many things have the words fasting in there. Like a juice fast, or a bone broth fast, or a fat fast, and I don't think those are actually fasting either. They're just a pattern of eating different things or drinking things that are not really fasting. Anyway, I just had to throw that in there. Sorry.  

Melanie Avalon: I guess, if you were doing a juice fast or bone broth fast, you're fasting from physical food, but you're not fasting in the sense that we think of fasting. 

Gin Stephens: Well, if you were asked to fast for a medical procedure, that would not fly. They would not want you to drink bone broth before your fasted surgery. That's a good way of thinking about it. If it's off limits [laughs] for a medical procedure, then we wouldn't want to drink a lot of beer right before medical procedure, either.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm just saying terminology wise like, you could eat food and be fasting just from apples, and you're not eating apples like you can fast from something. 

Gin Stephens: I'm fasting from apples. Yeah, well, it's like the Daniel Fast. It's a religious fast that my parents' church. They're eating, it's food. But it's just as special. They're refraining from certain things. But it's not the fasting we mean when we say fasting.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. It's a very interesting observation from Anonymous. So, yeah, we've talked about this before, but basically-- and again, beer is on the higher carb side of the alcoholic drinks. Well, I guess it really just depends, but alcohol itself doesn't really become body fat. I highly doubt it ever does. So, if people are just partaking in alcohol, they're actually probably not going to gain any fat from that alcohol. That said, what you eat with the alcohol can very easily be stored, and then on top of that, if you take in 2000 calories from alcohol, that's 2000 calories of energy. So, it's still adding to your total daily caloric intake and that the other food is more likely to be stored. 

Gin Stephens: Beer is technically, typically only 5% alcohol. Wine is about 12% alcohol or more. These are averages. According to average, beer would average 5%, some will be more, some will be less. Wine will average 12% and spirits, really only like spirits like vodka, usually only about 40% alcohol, unless you're drinking grain alcohol or something.  

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if that is averaging together like sweet wines and normal wines?  

Gin Stephens: I would think that's what they do for an average.  

Melanie Avalon: If you go to the store and look at the back of all the wines to see the alcohol percentage, which is something I have done trying to see if I can find any Dry Farm Wines equivalent wines in the store. It's so hard to find wines with alcohol less than 12.5% which is what Dry Farm Wines uses as they're cut off-- Usually, they're more than that.  

Gin Stephens: Well, again, that could be all data. Maybe, now, it's higher. Maybe, it used to be 12, and no one's updated, and everybody's just assuming it's still 12.  

Melanie Avalon: It’s a good question. 

Gin Stephens: That just shows that all these alcoholic drinks that we're drinking, it's not just alcohol. So, you're not just taking in alcohol calories that other 95% of your beer is not alcohol calories. 95% of it is not alcohol. So, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: I'll give a link since we mentioned Dry Farm Wines. 

Gin Stephens: Of course, some of it's water. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because it's by volume, not by calorie.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because I was thinking about in my head. I was like, “Mm.” 

Gin Stephens: I don't know the percentage of a beer that is of the calories. The percentage of the calories that would be the alcohol. That's another question. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: I just realized this recently. The Dry Farm Wines, a lot of them a relabel with their own label. For listeners, Dry Farm Wines, they go throughout Europe. They find wineries practicing organic practices, and then the wines have to be low sugar, low alcohol, less than 12.5 or less, like you just mentioned. They test them for toxins, and pesticides, and mold. I experienced such a difference drinking them but they often now relabel the back label to give more information and it shows grams of sugar, which is so cool. Most of them are 1 gram of sugar.  

Gin Stephens: I love the label that they put on there.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so helpful. So, that would be very negligible calories from carbs and alcohol. 

Gin Stephens: Will’s coming over for dinner more lately. Last night we're all sitting around and each of us had like a tiny little glass. We opened the bottle day before yesterday of Dry Farm Wines. It's red wine. I don't drink much red wine, but I had a tiny little bit. Now, we've had four servings from it and it's still only half the bottle because we're each having tiny little bits and even Will, because he's 21 now.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, fun.  

Gin Stephens: He's going to be spoiled rotten with his Dry Farm Wines.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. No kidding. Oh, my gosh.  

Gin Stephens: Making this 21-year-old have expensive tastes but in a good way, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, well, she'll be editing this and she'll hear it and her birthday has already passed. But just to show how much we love it, we gave our fabulous girl on our team who helps edit the podcast and create show notes and artwork, we gave her Dry Farm Wines for her birthday. 

Gin Stephens: Happy birthday, again, even though it's passed, Brianna. 

Melanie Avalon: Happy birthday again, Brianna.  

Gin Stephens: We're like, “What should we get her?” We're going back and forth, and we're like, “Well, you just can never go wrong with Dry Farm Wines.” Can never go wrong.  

Melanie Avalon: Never. So, for listeners if you'd like to get your own, you can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that link will also get you a bottle for a penny.  

Gin Stephens: So, that's exciting.  

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our first question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: This question comes from Sarah. The subject is "Waking up feeling exhausted during ADF." And Sarah says, “Hi, Mel and Gin. I wonder if you can shed some light on this. I've been IF for two years and lost 40 pounds. I have PCOS and am about 10 pounds for my goal/healthy weight. I’m currently 151 pounds and 5’4". I've been doing three 42-hour fasts most weeks since January. Never less than two a week. I tend to only lose weight if I'm low carb in my eating window which I find quite difficult and really watch what I eat. I don't eat bread, pasta, or rice usually. Otherwise, I maintain with three 42-hour fasts which sucks. I've tried shorter length fast and one meal a day, which causes me to gain weight. 

My question, on the days I do 42-hour fast, I sleep really, really well, but feel awful when I wake up, really tired and find it difficult to get out of bed. It goes once I'm up and awake, but I love to feel better. It doesn't happen on days I've eaten. I've recently had my general blood checked all fine. I take multivitamins, magnesium, fish oil, primrose oil, and electrolytes when fasting. I'm 50, and with perimenopausal symptoms such as hair falling out. Can you suggest ways to feel better? Love all your podcasts, books, and websites. Awesome. Thank you." 

Gin Stephens: I do want to say that I'm not certain that hair falling out is a perimenopausal symptom.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say.  

Gin Stephens: I feel it's not. It actually is a symptom that what you're doing is stressing your body out. So, I wonder if you may be overfasting for your body. I don't know. Count back three months, as a rule of thumb. Three months or so before the hair started falling out. Did you go through something stressful? If the answer is, “Oh, yeah, that was when my son was in the hospital or that was when I started a new stressful job.” Stress can make our hair start the hair fall process, and it's whatever your body perceives to be as a stress. You even could have had an illness that your body perceived as a stress. We try to make a lot of connections with what it is, and sometimes, we're not right. It might not be menopause. So, just keep that in mind. 

Melanie Avalon: It can be a sign but I think everything you just said is probably more likely the case and given the context of her question, it might not be menopause. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. If you have PCOS, then, that lets us know that your body likely has an issue with insulin because generally PCOS is related to higher levels of insulin. So, you're going to need to do things to get your insulin down, and that is why the longer fasts tend to be good for your body, and also, that probably why your body responds better to lower carb. So, you said it sucks, that's a bummer, and I know that it's frustrating. I get it. Because I would not be happy either, if my body needed me to do something that didn't feel like the thing I wanted to do. However, that being said, we have to work with the bodies we have, not our idea of what we want.  

For example, I wish I had a body that was doing great with allowing me to have a glass of wine, a big glass of wine every night, maybe two, but I don't. So, I've had to say, “Well, you know what? That isn't what my body does well with." If I eat too much sugar, I get restless legs. So, I have to adjust what I do to match what I want to have happen. I want you to reframe the three 42 inch-- 42 inch, I don't know where that came from. [laughs] The three 42-hour fasts. Instead of doing three 42-hour fasts, what if you did three 36-hour fasts? That might make a big difference. 36 to 42 is a lot of difference. Six hours. So, three 42-hour fasts might be more than your body wants to do. Try three 36-hour fasts instead. That would mean you're eating earlier in the day. Maybe model after the carbohydrate addicts' diet, which is an oldie but a goodie. But that was really early days of realizing how insulin affects us and she talked about it in there. Maybe do a low carb on the days that are your up days and you're going to have a 12-hour eating window instead of six because I really do think that three 42-hour fasts might be ever restriction, because the research on ADF, they weren't restricting at all on the updates. They weren't having a six-hour eating window. So, if you're having a six-hour eating window every single time that just might be over restriction.  

So. back to the carbohydrate addicts' diet, what I was talking about is, she had the plan. It was low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, regular dinner, and that was it. That was the whole plan. People lost weight doing that. So, if you do that on your updates, low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, regular dinner maybe still not if you don't eat bread, pasta rice usually but just allowing yourself to have more whole food carbs in that dinner. So, 36-hour fast, up day where you try low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, and then maybe slightly up your carb intake at dinner, see how that goes. See how that makes you feel. That might make you feel better. If it doesn't, if you still feel terrible on the days after your what are now 36-hour fast instead of 40-hour fast, if you still wake up feeling terrible, I want you to restructure your down day.  

Maybe on your down day, you have a low carb dinner instead. So, it would look like on what's your down day, instead of having a complete full fast, you would have a down day that has a low carb dinner. And then the next day, low carb breakfast, low carb lunch, higher carb dinner, and then just alternate that. See if what you're doing isn't just too restrictive. Because really the hair falling out, the fact that you're doing three 42-hour fasts, the fact that you're having trouble. The fact that, that you're seeing weight gain on one meal a day, that just makes me feel you might need to do just a little something else. You might be over-restricting. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, between Gin and me, I think we're going to offer a lot of different options. I'm glad that Gin took the approach of still keeping in the longer fast, but just not quite as long. So, that's definitely an option. I would probably suggest not doing any longer fasts. Gin was just talking about how the fact that you gain weight on one meal a day or shorter fasts is signifying that there's a lot that you can work with what you're actually eating in your eating window. Because I feel you should be able to find an eating pattern and a one meal a day pattern where you at the very least maintain, which would be my goal. So, my goal would be next 42-hour fast, I think what you're doing is sounds way too restrictive.  

You're 10 pounds from your goal weight, that's always when it's the hardest. You wake up exhausted, you don't feel good. You said, you feel good once you get going. That's probably from adrenaline kicking in. Your hair's falling out, I would stop. I would stop these long fasts, I would not do them. I would suggest trying one meal a day, every day, and really working on the food choices. Don't even try to lose weight. Just find something that maintains and then you can move forward to losing weight. I almost wonder if the fact that you're doing three 42-hour fasts, if the weight loss that you perceive that you're losing and the weight gain that you perceive that you're gaining, if it's literally just volume of food.  

Gin Stephens: Fluctuations from volume of food.  

Melanie Avalon: By 42 hours, you've probably lost the physical volume of all the food and then you're probably not retaining water. So, then when you eat, you probably gain back volume wise, just food, and then it's like if you were to keep doing one meal a day, you might feel you're gaining weight, but it's really just that now you have a volume of food in you every day that you didn't have before. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's so true. People do find that to be the case. I've actually had people say, “Gosh, every time I shorten my eating window, I gain weight. I don't gain weight on a six-hour window, but if I have a 1-hour window, I gain, gain. gain.” Really, I think it's just the volume of the food sits differently in the body when you eat it all in a constrained window, and then it causes you to even retain water differently, because a bulk of that food is moving through your system in a different way.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I think just psychologically, the way you're interpreting the game might have a lot to do with that. It's just seems so restrictive to me. A lot of people are really, really proud of themselves if they do one 42-hour fast and you're doing it three times a week. I think there's so much potential. For what I would suggest to do if you want to try one meal a day, well, first of all, like I said, accept the fact that you're going to “gain some weight,” but it's the volume. You're going to need to do it long enough for that to stabilize to actually see what is weight gain, and weight loss, and what like I just mentioned, the volume. 

You're doing low carb. We don't know what foods you're eating in low carb. I don't know if this is something that you're doing, but a lot of people in the low carb sphere, don't lose weight, even if it's working for them because they think that low carb means unlimited fat. But if you're eating enough fat to the point where you're not tapping into your body fat, you're probably not going to lose weight. I think this is one of the biggest things that people experience in the low carb world when they can't lose weight.  

I don't know if you're adding fats to your food. I don't know if you're just doing low carb like low carb foods or if you are also adding fats. A lot of people when they do low carb, they're adding olive oil or butter, maybe even cheese. If you're doing any of that, I would stop doing that and replace it with more protein. So, focusing on lean protein because that's the most satiating, that's the most thermogenic, meaning it's going to stimulate your metabolism the most. That's the least likely to become fat as a macronutrient. So, if you want to stay with low carb depending on what you're doing, reconceptualize it. Focus on the protein, focus on not adding fat. If you want to add fat, I say this a lot, but I would add C8 MCT oil. That's actually very pro-metabolic. So, that's a way to sort of like--  

Because some people's metabolisms on low carb-- and it's not a bad thing. But they might actually slow down a little bit just because of the nature of the macronutrients and I found that adding C8 MCT oil actually can combat that a little bit, because it's very thermogenic, and metabolism stroking, and to clarify, not in your fast, with your food. I'll put a link in the show notes to the one that I really like. As far as the carbs go, I know you said that you only lose weight if you are low carb. But I really like what Gin was saying about the potential of-- what is it called, where you add in the carb days? 

Gin Stephens: It's the carbohydrate addicts’ diet. Because since Sarah has PCOS, we know that insulin is likely a big issue for her. So, getting the insulin down more should be something that she targets. That's why low carb is so beneficial for people with PCOS.  

Melanie Avalon: I misheard. So, the carbohydrate addicts' diet, you don't have carbs, do you?  

Gin Stephens: You do. You have a low carb breakfast, low carb lunch and a “regular dinner.” 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I would suggest something similar. If you're going to do a one meal a day thing, having low carb days, then if you want to have a day with carbs as a carb up, so, it's like cyclical keto or something like that, having a carb up day in your one meal a day and making it very high carb, but making it very low fat for that day. 

Gin Stephens: I want to also say that you're likely to see a four-pound weight gain the next day after a high carb day after being low carb, and that is why people think, “Oh my gosh, I gain with carbs.” No, that's water weight. You did not gain four pounds of fat overnight from a high carb day. I actually did a program years and years and years and years ago back in my trying all the diets day. It was called Carb Nite. I've talked about that before, Melanie?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Keifer. Yep, yep. Carb Nite. The whole point of that was, your low carb for like-- I can't remember. I guess six days a week, and then one night a week, you have Carb Nite. It was where you added in lots and lots of carbs, and you're really trying to get those carbs in it, and he had the whole scientific reason why he recommended that because it keeps our hormones from-- Anyway, all the things that are said to happen when you're low carb with your hormones, this prevents all that. So, it's keeps your metabolism going a thing. It's been a long time, years since I read that work. But the whole premise was once a week, Carb Nite. You had to understand that after the Carb Nite, your weight was going to skyrocket. But it wasn't all fat. It's the water weight, and that comes because carbohydrates make us retain water, hydrate water.  

Melanie Avalon: For the Carb Nite, you do focus on being lower fat as well. That protocol works really, really well for a lot of people. That's probably the protocol I would actually recommend, would be a one meal a day situation, making the low carb days low carb, making them very high protein and not adding any fats. If you do add fats, add the MCT and then have a Carb Nite one night a week where you do high carb, low fat. 

Gin Stephens: No, I don't recall it being high carb-low fat because I remember I was in the community for a while. This was a long, long time ago. There was a Facebook group for it. I recall us eating things like gelato and we were not low fat. So, I don't know if we all were doing it wrong, but I don't recall the emphasis being low fat. 

Melanie Avalon: I think if I recall correctly and I can double check, I think he suggests, you're allowed to have fat, but I think he suggests you start with carbs. The idea is to fill up, and then if you're still hungry at the end, that's when you add in the fat but you don't start with the fat. 

Gin Stephens: That's not how I remember it but again, I could be misremembering it. 

Melanie Avalon: Or, might be the other way around. But there's an order to it.  

Gin Stephens: I just know, I was not doing low fat in there too. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, that's the thing is you can have it. I'm pretty sure. Because I read this a few months ago, and I think there's an order to it. 

Gin Stephens: Also, it could have been revised since then maybe he revised his recommendations since whenever it was I was doing it years ago. That is entirely possible. 

Melanie Avalon: Regardless of what he writes, I personally believe that if you make that high carb day low fat, then what's so incredible about it is, if you've been low carb, so you've been a fat burning ketogenic metabolism, lowering insulin, when you have that carb up day, you get all of the metabolic benefits of carbs. So, thyroid stimulating, metabolism, promoting filling up your glycogen stores throughout muscle, and your liver, if you do that in the context of high protein, high carb, low fat, it's actually-- even though, you'll most likely gain water weight, it's actually unlikely that you will gain much weight at all. So, it's like you get to have this. 

Gin Stephens: You're not really gaining fat. You see it on the scale. But that's what I don't want people to be freaked out about is like, “Oh my gosh, look at the scale. I'm up. I've gained all this fat from this. See, my body can't eat carbs.” That is not what that means. 

Melanie Avalon: Right. If you do eat fat on that high carb meal, you're going to store whatever fat. Basically, that's where you can see it. If you do this high carb day, this carb up day, basically, see it as whatever fat you eat that day you are most likely going to store. 

Gin Stephens: Not if it's not over what you needed.  

Melanie Avalon: True.  

Gin Stephens: Just because you eat fat doesn't mean your store it. I eat fat every day and I'm not storing a bunch of fat. I eat fat and carbs together every day. Only in the paradigm of now you're overeating. If you're overeating, what's leftover will be stored.  

Melanie Avalon: When I'm saying in my head is a lot of people who do this carb up, they make it really intense. It's like the big feast day. 

Gin Stephens: The cheat day kind of paradigm which is not really what it's supposed to be.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, right. Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: I don't like the idea of cheat day anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: So, let us know, Sarah. Let us know how it all goes. I will also-- just because I mentioned this last week, I'm reading Dr. Michael Platt's book about Adrenaline Dominance, and he really recommends and-- I started doing it. He really recommends progesterone cream for all hormonal issues really. But he actually recommends it right before eating for insulin sensitivity, which was really interesting. Apparently, if you take it right before eating, it's only in the bloodstream for a brief amount of time. It can possibly help you with your insulin response. 

Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about Prep Dish and what they have going on for you this summer. Summer is my favorite season. I'm sure that you've heard me say that before. But one thing about summer is that we are busy. That's why I'm so excited to tell you about the free bonus menu Prep Dish is offering this month, and it's only good through the end of June. 

If you're a regular listener, I'm sure you're familiar with their new Super Fast Menus. If you thought prepping five healthy dinners in just an hour was the best it could get somehow, they're upping their game. Just for the month of June, Prep Dish is offering all new subscribers a free bonus menu. It's not just your average meal plan though. It's designed to let you prep five healthy dinners in just 30 minutes. It seriously doesn't get any easier than that. Don't worry. Just because the meals come together quickly, that doesn't mean you'll be missing out on flavor. The bonus menu includes things like California burgers with berry salad, shrimp tostadas and a slow cooker Italian pork. When you subscribe, you'll have access to the gluten-free, paleo, keto and the Super Fast menu, in addition to the bonus menu. 

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Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, and this is from Evelyn and the subject is "Non-scale victory and donating blood." She says, “Hello, ladies. My name is Evelyn and I have been doing Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat protocol for just over a year. I would like to report a few non-scale victories and ask one question. First a bit about me. I am 51 years old, a mother of four adult children, happily married for nearly 30 years, and work at home as a private piano teacher. Mid July 2020, during the middle of COVID and shutdown, I was taking inventory of my life. My weight was the highest it had ever been at 210 pounds.” Gosh, I just want to say, we have so much in common, Evelyn. I only have two children, not four. But I've been married for 30 years, I got up to 210, so many similarities. I'm 52, you're 51. Anyway, back to the question.  

She said, “I was entering into menopause. A few more months and I will be past that famous one-year mark. I was charting my blood work from several years past and began to see that the trend was getting higher and higher in almost every category. I could see the writing on the wall that medicine would be in my future, kind of depressing. When my girlfriend graciously shared her copies of your two books, Gin, I read them both in two days and started immediately. I was a rip the bandage off kind of girl. My first hope of course was to lose weight, which I have. I am currently 158 pounds with about 10 to 15 pounds to go. But I also wanted to work on my blood work. I'd like to report this year my wellness checkup that all my numbers improved, and are once again within normal ranges.”  

Melanie Avalon: Hooray. I'm cheering. That was me cheering for Evelyn.  

Gin Stephens: “My total cholesterol dropped 30 points and the nurse said, that doesn't usually happen without medicine. Amazing. My blood pressure and blood glucose numbers are near perfect and today I saw my eye doctor for the first time in a year. He made the comment that the health of my eye looks like a 20-year-old. He has never said that in all the years I've seen him. He mentioned that my eye pressure, which I take daily drops for, has gone down. He seemed pleased with that. I also realized today that I no longer have any floaters. They've disappeared." For anyone who doesn't know that's, when you see these little spots like floating in your field of vision that just pop up. You think there's like something floating in the air, but it's just something in your eye, in your field of vision.  

All right, she said, "They've disappeared. That must be autophagy at work doing its thing, cleaning up the old and used up parts. It's been exciting to see how my health has improved in such unsuspecting ways because of IF. Okay, my question, as part of my turning 50 and becoming an empty nester, losing weight, and just enjoying life in this new season, I started giving blood. I have never done it before and so, unwittingly went to the blood drive without eating breakfast, a good 12 to 14 hours into my fast. I got through all the screenings with good “grades” and then they casually asked me, “You've had a good breakfast, right?” “Um, no, I hadn't.” They almost turned me away. I promised them that I am very much used to not having breakfast and that if I were to get dizzy, I would tell them. I know that for many people who are not fat adapted, giving blood without their regular source of energy stocked up may not be good. But do you know if you must or even should eat either before and after, and when donating blood? They also offered food afterwards too. I will gladly break my fast to give blood several times a year if I must, but must I? Can you see a day when this eating protocol is different as more and more IF people show up at blood drives? Thank you for fielding this question and rejoicing with me on the non-scale victories."  

After reading this, I'm so curious. I wish Evelyn had said how she felt after giving blood in the fasted state because that would be very instructive. Because she said, they almost turned her away, but it sounds like they didn't which sounds like she followed through giving blood in the fasted state and in which case, it would be very interesting to see how she felt because I'm a big believer in listen to your own body, and how you feel, and if she felt perfectly fine after giving blood, that would be a big indication that it works well for her body. Again, they have food afterwards. If you feel that dizzy, low blood sugar, there's something there you could eat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because it does sound like she actually gave the blood. When I first heard her question, I was thinking she didn't. Let us know, Evelyn, if you did give the one the fastest day and how you felt. I will note, she was saying that maybe because she's fat adapted, that she would be less likely to be dizzy or faint. I do not recommend people give blood in the fasted state. It's actually not about blood sugar, it's about blood pressure. So, it's not something that has to do with your fat burning metabolism. So, not everybody faints, but it just has to-- Well, obviously, because people are fainting left and right. But it has to do with how your body reacts to a perceived blood pressure dropped that can happen pretty quickly from giving a large amount of blood. It's obviously up to you if you want to try. I have fainted before with blood, and it's a very unpleasant experience, and I don't wish it on anybody. It's not terrible, but if you haven't fainted, it's surprising. 

Gin Stephens: I have never fainted ever, not in my entire life. You probably could have guessed that, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I probably could have.  

Gin Stephens: Has Gin ever fainted? Yes, or no? No, Gin has not. 

Melanie Avalon: Has Melanie? Yes. It's just funny. I have only fainted once from a blood draw, and it was forever ago. But still, just because it's such an intense experience-- because you feel like you're dying because you don't know what's happening and then, you wake up and you don't know what happened, and it's just not pleasant, and what's really interesting, I do blood tests all the time, listeners know this. All the time. I still get nervous now because I fainted that one time, maybe this is something I can work on with a therapist or something. but I still get nervous. Even though I'm like a champ at blood tests. I'm always worried I'm going to faint. I do all my blood tests fasted, obviously, because we have to be usually fasted for blood tests. 

But giving blood is a whole another-- I would just be really nervous to be completely fasted and do a blood draw. But I would love to hear it. If any listeners who are doing fasting, I would love to hear their experience. So, yeah. I do think that's really interesting, though, that it's not related to blood sugar. Oh, something that has reassured me though about just getting blood tests is that the amount of blood they take for a normal blood test, it's negligible as far as your body reacting to it. So, if you faint from a blood test like I did, that's usually psychosomatic. It's not going to be because of this massive blood pressure drop most likely, that is possible when you're giving blood. Or, it could be psychosomatic blood pressure drop. But my point is, when you're giving blood, it's a physical amount of blood that can create that blood pressure drop compared to when you're getting a blood test where it's actually not a huge difference in your overall blood stream. Fun fact. Any thoughts, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is just one of those things that I'm not comfortable saying yes or no to. I'm not going to say yes, fast or no, don't fast, because that's not-- I would always follow the recommendations of medical professionals before any procedure, even giving blood. If you're not doing it very often, go later in the day after you've eaten. If they want you to have something to eat before you get blood, go when your window is open. Then, now, we don't even have to worry about it. You're not having to sacrifice your fast or making them happy and whatever the reason is, maybe the reason is wrong and you don't need to, but I'm not going to say that. I would do it later, personally, when my window was already open just to not even have to ask the question or worry about it. That's just what I have to say about that. I never want to go against a medical professional. Does that mean I think every medical professional is always got the most updated information? No. We know that things change. Protocols change, recommendations change, doctors have different ideas about things, research changes. So, follow the advice. If you go to give blood and they say you should have had breakfast, then have something to eat, come back later. Go during your window. Better safe than sorry.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. If you eat, you're much less likely to faint, and then it will much more likely be a successful blood draw.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, our next question comes from Stephanie. The subject is "Four-three window." Stephanie says, “Hello, I just love you girls. I've been doing IF for three months, and I'm down 25 pounds. I just love it. I recently started the four-three window. I only have 500 calories on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I've always done a 20:4 window. I was just wondering on my up days, do I fast for 20 hours still or can I start eating whenever I get hungry on my up days? Also, I'm a fitness instructor. So, I burn about 1000 extra calories a day and exercise. Should I up my low days to 1000 calories or stay at 500 calories? Thanks so much. So thankful for your podcast.” 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is a great question, Stephanie and I can answer it pretty quickly. Please do not fast for 20 hours on your up days. No, no, no, no, no. There's a lot of confusion with up days. And the research that was done on alternate daily fasting, they did not have any sort of fasting paradigm or window on updates. I mean, none. They were not instructed to skip breakfast, eat breakfast, eat in a window. They were just told on a down day, depending on the study, some down days were full fasts, and some down days were 500 calories depending on the study. And the up day was just, now you eat. So, they had the down day protocol they were following whether it was 500 calories or zero calories. Then the update, they were just instructed to eat normally. So, I'm pretty sure there was nobody in those studies that was also continuing to fast on the up day.  

We don't have data on that. We have no research on that. Maybe, there was somebody. When I say I'm pretty sure there wasn't, no, it wasn't reported in this study. Probably most of them ate breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is why I make the recommendation for an up day to purposefully make sure you're eating at least two meals, at least six to eight hours. Just because it's hard for some of us that have been doing intermittent fasting with the time-restricted eating for a while. It's hard for us to wake up and have breakfast at 7 in the morning. So, we feel better delaying our breakfast or not eating first thing when we get up. But we need to consciously make sure we're eating at least two meals, at least a window of six to eight hours. But again, notice that at least that doesn't mean, okay, well then, I'm going to do six every day, that first question that we answered from Sarah, she's doing three 42-hour fasts a week. Just because I say at least six to eight hours doesn't mean all right, I'm going to go with six, because I'm really dedicated. Sometimes, we feel like more is better and it's not always. 

With alternate daily fasting, they found the metabolism didn't slow down from that alternate-- that rhythm. But the up days, they were eating more, of course, we don't recommend calorie counting. There's a lot of flaws with that, but I'm going to use the word 'calories' in terms of energy intake, they were eating more calories, then their bodies needed on the up days. I can't remember the percentage, 100 and something percent of their daily caloric needs on up days. So, you want to eat more food. It needs to be up. You want to slightly overeat on up days. So, if you're comparing an up day to a normal day when you're not doing intermittent fasting, you want to slightly overeat on an up day. If you're doing a four-hour eating window on an up day, are you going to be slightly overeating? Doubtful.  

Oh, for the other part of Stephanie's question, the research on alternate daily fasting, they were right around 500 calories, and it didn't matter how active you were, if you were a man, if you were a little tiny woman, it was just. “Hey, let's just do 500 calories.” If you want to have 1000 calories, you could do your own approach to it. It won't be exactly the same as the researched alternate daily fasting, but if your body needs more than that 500 calories down day, you just try it and see if it works for you. That would be okay. Because you're still having that-- It's like a hybrid approach or you're modifying it. You just don't want to over restrict. You don't want to err on the side of over-restriction is my point. 

Melanie Avalon: That was great. I was going to say it was-- You used my word 'hybrid approach.' I guess the thing to clarify is just in general with ADF, it's not like you adjust your calorie intake based on your activity to do ADF, which I think might be the confusion maybe for people. They think, “Oh, it's 500 calories, but I adjust for my activity.”  

Gin Stephens: Everybody was assigned the same 500 calories on the down days. Although in Dr. Johnson's book, I can't remember the title of it but it was one of the early ADF books out there, he actually did have like men can-- maybe 600 calories. I don't know. There was a little bit of variability in there, but he was just basing it all just on calories. It was before we really understood, there's a lot more going on than just calories. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to put a link in the show notes. I'm listening to an interview. It's the latest interview on Peter Attia. It's with Steve Austad, PhD. It's making me so happy. They're diving deep into studies on calorie restriction, especially because there have been quite a few studies that have been confusing. There was the one in the rhesus monkey studies and the monkeys on whole foods diet versus I don't know the exact details, but it was calorie-restricted monkeys on either a whole foods type diet or calorie-restricted monkeys on a processed diet. 

Gin Stephens: I don't think I've ever seen a monkey study with ultra-processed and whole foods. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it was one study. I think it was two different institutions. But it's been something that has been perplexing, because I believe there was greater benefits in the process diet monkeys. Basically, the takeaway was that when you're eating a whole foods diet, there might be less benefit to gain from calorie restriction compared to when you're on a processed diet. That's been a conundrum, and then there was something I talked about when I interviewed Dr. Steven Gundry. There were two different mice studies looking at mice on processed diet or whole foods, and perplexing findings with the mice eating the processed diet experiencing greater benefits. I don't know if it's because it was like protein amounts. But Dr. Steven Gundry's theory and it's the theory that I immediately thought of when I read it was that by eating a processed diet-- because they only put out the food a certain amount of time. By eating the processed food diet, it actually created a longer fast because they ate it so fast and it was digested fast. 

In any case, there's been a lot of really interesting studies on calorie restriction in rodents and monkeys and perplexing findings, and so, if you listen to that episode with Peter Attia there, I'm only halfway through it, but they're diving deep into it. They also talk about that famous calorie restriction study. You know the biosphere where the people went in? They were talking about that too. And he's been talking about how calorie restriction in rodents in the wild actually, probably does not lead to longevity. It actually reduces lifespan. I'll put a link to it. It's really, really interesting.  

Gin Stephens: That does sound really interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but you did an excellent job answering that question. [giggles] Gin's got it.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I know how to answer these questions because I've heard them all in the Facebook groups back in the day. That's why I love helping people. Melanie is the one who loves what are the monkeys doing. [laughs] I mean that with love Melanie and I'm like, “Let me tell you the nuts and bolts of this of how you can make this work for your life with your question." [laughs]   

Melanie Avalon: I think that's why you make a good team.  

Gin Stephens: I think so too. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode229. There will be a full transcript there, all of the links. I'm plugging it again, definitely get on my email list for the serrapeptase at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. You can submit your own questions for the show, just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I'm @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. 

All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No. I think that's it. Next time, I will be coming to you from the beach.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I'm excited. [laughs] I'll talk to you then.  

Gin Stephens: All right, bye-bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 15

Episode 226: CGMs, Blood Glucose, Large Volume Eating, Electrolyte Balance, Cryo-Toning, Infused Water, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 226 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BIOPTIMIZERS:  Go To masszymes.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save Up 10% Off Any Order!

18:20 - FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

21:05 - Listener Feedback: Susan - Prolonged Fasting - Not A Fan 

24:05 - Listener Feedback: Emilie - Thank You LMNT

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29:05 - Listener Q&A: Leslie - Splitting OMAD Up

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48:35 - Listener Q&A: Tish - Cryo-Toning - Follow Up

The Science Of Fat Cells: Losing Weight, Gaining Weight, Killing Fat Cells, Liposuction, Body Contouring, CoolSculpting®, ECM Remodeling, And More!

56:40 - Listener Q&A: Paul - Is Infused Water Breaking Fast?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 226 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing your when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine - Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 226 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous, and my eyelashes look amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, did you get Beautycounter’s new mascara?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's it. I was so excited.

Gin Stephens: It's what I've been waiting for, because as much as I love Beautycounter, their mascara didn't blow me away. It was literally the only thing was that they're all mascara. I was using another safe mascara that I was like, “Darn, I wish Beautycounter had the great mascara.” They came out with a new one, and it was right now, we can only-- it's not available for the public yet, but it's about to be. So, by the time this comes out, will it be?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it should be.

Gin Stephens: But it's amazing. It is better than any mascara I've ever used in my life. That's how excited I am.

Melanie Avalon: I think this is the most exciting thing you've ever told me. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I couldn't wait to tell you.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I'm so happy. For me, my mascara history, I've always been a mascara combiner because I could never find one mascara that would do everything I wanted.

Gin Stephens: I'm too lazy. I'm not going to combine anything.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I was using Beautycounter’s volumizing mascara, and then, I was using Pacifica, and I was blending them. Then, they just sent the new one which is called Think Big, I think.

Gin Stephens: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: It's gotten big in the name of it.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing.

Gin Stephens: It just goes on big. It goes on-- [laughs] Anyway, I love it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so happy. Yes, listeners, do not pass go. Go get this mascara right now. For listeners who are not familiar, we love Beautycounter, because they were founded on a mission to remove endocrine disruptors from makeup. Gin, with her new book coming out now as well as me knows all about.

Gin Stephens: It's a huge deal on, didn't want to listen, but [laughs] I switched because you were so excited about it. I'm like, “Well, okay. Cleaning up is never a bad idea.” Then, I did the research for Clean(ish). Then, I'm like, “Okay, this is really, really important.” I didn't really connect all together. Yeah, we know, we want to have things that are safe, but our toxic load is so much bigger than it was before.

Melanie Avalon: It's huge.

Gin Stephens: That's the thing. It might not have mattered 20 years ago to the point that it matters now, because it all adds up. It's like our bucket gets more and more full.

Melanie Avalon: I'm reading a book called Diet for Sex written by an acupuncturist. It's actually very interesting. But she was having a chapter on endocrine disruptors and toxic compounds in our environment, and she said-- I think it was like, what is it the World Health Organization released a statement? They basically came up with nine environmental toxins that are a problem for us. So, this was the Environmental Burden of Disease project that the World Health Organization did. They basically found nine compounds, and the scientists concluded that 3% to 7% of the burden of disease in Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands, which I feel-- I don't know, I feel the US has just as many if not more compounds than those countries.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm sure we do. Because our criteria are not as strict here.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. It was attributed to environmental pollutants, which is like-- That's a big statement for them to make. If you think about it, there's basically three avenues. There's our food, which we often-- I think a lot of people focus on cleaning up their food, because you're directly putting it in your body. There's our air, the environment that we live in. But then there's our skincare makeup that we're putting directly on our skin, and it can directly go into our bloodstream. It's very, very shocking the implications that it can have.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I had my attorney meeting for my book.

Melanie Avalon: Should I get the link really quick?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Get the link. So, if listeners would like to clean up their skincare makeup, you can shop with us, and our link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Get that mascara.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm a huge fan. I just had my meeting with my attorney for Macmillan. I’ll show you though, attorney that-- I don't know. We didn't do that for Fast. Feast. Repeat. Maybe, they did it and just didn't call me. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Like the law department?

Gin Stephens: I never had a call with the law department for Fast. Feast. Repeat. They must have just looked at it on their own. But this attorney called me on it because you said you had one for What When Wine. I was super nervous. I was so nervous.

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, when I had mine, because I was on Imprint, but the attorney was that Norton like the head.

Gin Stephens: This was from Macmillan, yeah. even though I'm at an Imprint too.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm with St. Martin's Press. Well, it was awesome. I was so scared. It's like, “I'm so scared.” She's like, “Don't be scared.” She was very complimentary about the book. She said, I love the way you phrase things like a scientist. Of course, I'm married to a scientist. Things are rarely “proven.” We have evidence. Anyway, she was pleased with the way I wrote it. That was good. It was just a few little wording things. She's like, “Instead of saying hazardous, maybe you should say problematic.” I'm like, “All right, fine.” It was a tiny little thing. It was nothing big.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, that's amazing.

Gin Stephens: It was amazing. I feel so good. She said she's going to make changes in her life after reading it.

Melanie Avalon: I remember that was happening with me when the people that were reading it. It's so wonderful. It's like, “That's great. That's so exciting.”

in Stephens: Well, yeah. When I was reading my other book for Audible or for, well, I was reading for the audiobook, the director was like, “I'm going to start intermittent fasting.” [laughs] Every day, he was like, “Oh, that sounds really-- You make it sound fun.” I’m like, “Yay.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: With this, our people wanting to clean up their environment or they--?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she's a mom, and she's got kids and she says, she's inspired to do it for a family, and also, there's just one chapter about intermittent fasting, but she also was interested in that.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's amazing.

Gin Stephens: Because it's not an intermittent fasting book. But in the-- Let your body self-clean section. Intermittent fasting is not the only way we let our bodies self-clean, of course. It's just one way our body self-cleans.

Melanie Avalon: You don't tell me the exact date, but will you have galleys soon?

Gin Stephens: I will. I'll get you a galley.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Can we book you for my show?

Gin Stephens: Pretty sure can. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Gin Stephens: We can. That would be fun.

Melanie Avalon: Oof, exciting. [laughs] Awesome.

Gin Stephens: I'm really proud of this book, because I don't think there's one book that necessarily puts it all together in the same way that I did where it's talking about your food, and what you're putting on your body and, your cleaning products, and things you're surrounding yourself with, but also trusting your body to do some stuff, too, and there's so much we can do, and then letting you decide as a reader what you're willing to do. There's no like, “This is what you must do." Anybody who knows me knows I'm not going to tell you exactly what to do. But it's guiding you to find a way that is going to be cleanish for you.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited to read it.

Gin Stephens: Well, go ahead. I hope you love it.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot. Is it similar length to your last book?

Gin Stephens: It's longer. It's 400 pages.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: Are they going to hyperlink your references or the references are in it?

Gin Stephens: Well, we were just talking about that, actually, yesterday. A lot of my references, of course, a lot of journal articles, but a lot of them are also things from the EPA or the World Health Organization, documents like that, that I used for my sources. In the reference section, some of them, like if it's an EPA document, for example, that lives on the web, they're going to put the name of it, and describe it, and then a hyperlink for it. I think you'll be able to hyperlink through the reference section in the electronic version.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That makes sense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm not sure what the others will look like, because the beauty of having editors is they do all that. Even for the journal articles that you're getting from PubMed, they've all got a link that you can put. So, instead of me trying to format the journal articles, I didn't even bother, I just said, "Here they are. [laughs] Y'all do it, however you want to." It's amazing. That's like, I feel so good.

Melanie Avalon: Well, congratulations. I'm very excited for you.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

Gin Stephens: Anything up with you?

Melanie Avalon: I've been wearing a CGM again, because I remember I was wearing CGMs for quite a while, and then I got burnt out. Well, I just got tired of monitoring. So, I put one on again. I'm very, very happy. This time around, even though, I'm eating the same diet, I'm not really sure what changed. It's very interesting. I want to share this. Probably, you will get higher blood sugars while fasting and stuff like that. The one I'm wearing right now is Levels. I'm going to be interviewing Kara again at NutriSense. I'm going to ask her about my specific pattern.

But my pattern right now, pretty consistently is-- so, I eat at night, a huge amount of food, and then, usually right before for eating, it's usually in the 70s or 80s, and then, I eat-- It doesn't usually go above 120, and then, it comes down all night. It pretty much stays in the 70s or 80s after that. What's interesting is, I wake up, it's usually like in the 80s. I have a little bit of coffee, I get going, every morning, it spikes to 110, 115. This is when I'm fasted, and then, it comes down after that and tends to get in the 80s again, maybe 90s, which I'd rather it be lower. I find that spike really, really interesting that happens in the morning with the coffee. So, it's very, very interesting seeing through data. Have you worn one recently or--?

Gin Stephens: No, Levels is sending me one. Yep, I got an email today that said, it's on the way.

Melanie Avalon: When you did Zoe, did you were one that you could monitor?

Gin Stephens: Well, it was a FreeStyle Libre. You can look at it directly on the monitor, but it's hard to tell the data. You're just barely able to just see zigzags. So, I found a third-party website that you could work with like you would.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so, sort of like what Levels and NutriSense is doing.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah, it was a third-party website where you could plug in the monitor to your computer and it synced it with the website, and then, it told you your numbers. Yeah, so, I was able to look at them specifically, but only because I took that extra step.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, for listeners, I probably should have given some definitions. So, CGM is Continuous Glucose Monitor. You put it on-- I'm actually putting another video on my Instagram pretty soon showing how you put it on. So, that'll probably be out by the time this airs. So, you can check that out. But it's painless to apply, it measures your interstitial fluid, so the fluid around your cells, and measures your blood sugar continuously, which is very, very cool. I like to personally check it against a glucometer, like a fingerstick that you have at home, just to make sure that it's accurate because sometimes they can be off, but the precision is usually never off. The accuracy can be off, but the precision usually isn't. So, what that means is, if it's off by 10 points or something--

Gin Stephens: It's always off by 10.

Melanie Avalon: It's always off by 10. Yeah, it's not going to be all over the place. Mine right now seems to be spot on, which is really, really nice. But they're usually only available by prescription. So, there are companies now, like I just mentioned, Levels, NutriSense, that are giving access to people to get them. I have links for both of those. If listeners want to get one for themselves, so for Levels, they're actually on a waitlist. They have 115,000 waitlist of people, which is crazy. You can skip the waitlist with my link. It's melanieavalon.com/levelscgm. Then, NutriSense, they're not on a waitlist, but I have a discount. It's melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm. MELANIEAVALON will get you some sort of discount. A pretty good one, I think. But it's just really, really eye opening, and it was really fun to bring it back after not having done it for a while. I still want to do it while I'm doing carnivores or something, and see what that looks like.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be interesting. I think mine was just delivered literally right back this minute because FedEx just knocked on the door.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Gin, are you going to put it on?

Gin Stephens: Well, not right this second. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Are we excited? Let me know. Let me know if you do. Oh, another little note. I don't know if you know this, Gin. You want to give it at least 24 hours before you judge its accuracy even?

Gin Stephens: That was the same with the Zoe one. They said, “Let it settle in.” [laughs] get used to you.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I'm trying to figure out when I want to do it, because it's good for a month, right?

Melanie Avalon: Nope, two weeks.

Gin Stephens: Oh, only two weeks? Okay. All right. Well, then that. I'm going to the beach and I'm going to be there for three weeks. So, I don't know that I want to be wearing it while I'm at the beach. I'm going to get in the water and yeah, in the ocean, and it won't be my normal routine, people are coming to visit.

Melanie Avalon: I will say that the two things that make a huge difference. Taking the berberine really, really helps, and after I do cryo, it drops and then it stays low. What's interesting, too, is when I do the cryo, it spikes really high, and I don't know if it's actually spiking or if the cold is freaking out the sensor, because after that, it goes down, and it goes down lower than what it was before.

Gin Stephens: Well, then, that actually it sounds like it's doing something. It's like blasts the glucose out of where it's hiding, and, then you’re low, isn’t that would it sound like? [giggles] If afterwards, it went back to normal than that would be yeah, the cold freaks it out. But it goes lower. So, it's blasting it out. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I need to do more research.

Gin Stephens: My scientific language is just-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is how we talk on this show.

Gin Stephens: My cryotherapy blasts out the glucose. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's funny. People have reported to me during cryo that their blood sugar, wearing CGM said it dropped really, really low. One girl told me that she would faint in cryo from dropping too low. So, in any case--

Gin Stephens: Or, maybe, your body needs more while you're going through that cold. Maybe, your body uses it up. Your body's like, “Oh, my God, this glucose, I got to use it up,” because I don't know, because of the cold.

Melanie Avalon: But it's a really big spike. It goes from 85 to 125, and then it drops down to 70s.

Gin Stephens: Something's happening.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have some feedback. This comes from Susan, and the subject is "Prolonged fasting, not a fan." Susan says, I recently listened to Episode 223. I'm a fan of not always having the same fasting/eating window every day. I teach water aerobics, and in the summer, jump from 6 classes a week to 10 to 12. I have had to shorten my fasting window on busy days. On Sundays, off day, I can do a longer fast. I listened to my body and don't beat myself up if I eat earlier one day. It's about being healthy and working with your body. Thanks for your podcast. By the way, I am 63, five feet tall, weigh 135 pounds. Not my ideal weight, but I focus on how fit I am, and how much better I feel. Only been fasting for five months. So, still a work in progress."

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think Susan is a perfect example of being responsive to your changing daily schedule. Gosh, I'm hungry just when I swim a little bit in the ocean for 30 minutes. I can't imagine doing 10 to 12 water aerobics classes a week. That's like two a day or even more than two a day really, because if she's only doing-- well, If she's doing it six days a week, that would be two a day with 12. Anyhow, that's a lot of exercise and also being in the water that uses a lot of energy just because of the water temperature. Your body needs to compensate for being in the cooler water. So, you're going to need more fuel. That makes perfect sense. I'm a big fan of doing exactly what you're doing, Susan, and listening to your body, and all of that exertion, especially in the water, your body needs more fuel. So, good work.

Melanie Avalon: I love what you said. I’ve been thinking about it. I feel there are two major mentalities or things I see happening from the intermittent fasting movement that I think are a little bit problematic, and that I want to dismantle. One of them is what you just said. It's that people-- or I don't know, if you said this exactly, but people I think get really, really rigid with their fasting windows and think that they can't adjust it, or they can't try different things. I don't know, I think there's more of an intuition that can come into play, especially after you've been doing fasting for a while. Maybe not right at the beginning when you're trying to figure it out exactly but afterwards, I don't ever want there to be fear about having to stay in this exact window and not evolving with your body with your fasting window.

The second thing, and I feel we might circle back to this with some other questions, because I think people often think that fasting is the magic cure all and that what you eat doesn't matter at all. It's just the fasting and the foods that you're choosing don't play a role. I think that's something to dismantle a little bit.

Gin Stephens: Yep, absolutely. Shall we move on?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: We have feedback from Emily, and she says, "Thank you LMNT." I always want to call it LMNT, by the way. But you pronounce it element?

Melanie Avalon: Element. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Gin Stephens: LMNT. [laughs] It spelled LMNT for anyone who's wondering. All right, she says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie. I've been listening and IFing with y'all since the beginning, which I love. Thank you for all--" that was me. [laughs] That wasn't in the question. She said, “Thank you for all the information you share. After IFing for almost four years, I started getting horrible headaches in the evening after I ate my one meal a day. I recently upped my water intake to my body weight in ounces, so I knew I wasn't dehydrated." I'm going to pop in there and say actually, having more water than your body needs causes electrolyte depletion.

Melanie Avalon: It can. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's counterintuitive because we've been told that you must pound down the water, and you can't trust your thirst, and you must drink so much water. But when you're fasting, it changes things up, because food isn't coming in and you just having so much water. A lot of water in the fasted state actually can cause the problem to be worse than if you're drinking a lot while you're eating. That's just something to keep in mind. Because it can deplete your electrolytes more than if you were not doing intermittent fasting. So, just be cautious about that, because in our whole society, the common thought is, the more water you drink, the better. That is not true. It can actually be dangerous.

Anyhow, back to her feedback. She said, "I went ahead and tried the LMNT packets by Robb Wolf with my one meal a day, and poof, no more headaches. The orange flavor’s my favorite. Thanks for the recommendation." I really think that her electrolytes were being depleted by it by so much water and the element restored them. Keep in mind, she's having the orange with her meal, and that you can have all the flavored ones all you want during your eating window, but during your fast, stick to the raw and unflavored. That one is safe for clean fasting.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited because I'm interviewing Robb Wolf again next week actually, which has listeners know it well. I don't know if they know, but Robb Wolf is one of the main reasons I'm doing what I'm doing today, because I read The Paleo Solution back in 2012, and I've been a huge, huge follower of his work ever since then. I think he cofounded it, LMNT, because he realized the huge importance that electrolytes play, especially often people with fasting, and especially, people on ketogenic diets. I have so many questions for him next week. I'm so excited. But basically, electrolyte balance is just so, so huge, and it can be involved in a lot of things that people often experience. For example, they might think is keto flu or detox, but it might be electrolytes. So, things like hunger, and cramps, and headaches, and tiredness, and dizziness, and I get so many questions in my Facebook group about recommended electrolyte supplements, but most of them on the market are full of sugars, and flavorings, and additives, and it's just no bueno.

We love LMNT, because it's none of that. Gin just mentioned, they have the raw, unflavored one. That one's totally, completely safe for your fast. So, you can have it during the clean fast and it's all good. Then, they have so many flavors that are amazing, that are not safe for clean fast because they're sweetened with stevia. But you can have those in your eating window of course, and there's a lot of really, really yummy flavors. They have a chocolate one. They just released a great fruit, but I think it's sold out. They have a watermelon, which is my favorite. They have a citrus one that is really good if you want to make margaritas. We actually have an amazing offer for our listeners. You can get it completely free. My favorite is only we can give things away completely free. So, if you go to--

Gin Stephens: That is fun.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's my favorite. So, if you go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, you can get a sampler pack. It includes eight packets of four of their flavors. You'll get two raw, two citrus, two raspberry, and two orange. You pay $5 for shipping. If you don't like it, they'll even reimburse you the shipping. So, literally, you have nothing to lose. What's interesting about this is, when we first started our partnership with LMNT, I think they were testing this, testing if it was going to be cost effective to give it away completely free. Clearly, it is because they decided to keep doing this. So, clearly people are really liking it once they try it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that proves it right there, if people keep buying it. Emily, super happy that the LMNT got rid of your headaches. Oh, and that orange flavor is her favorite, and that one is in the sample pack. So, get it now. All right. Shall we move on to our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Right. We have a question from Leslie. The subject is "Splitting OMAD, One Meal A Day up." Leslie says, "Hi, I'm Melanie and Gin, I've been a very long time One Meal A Day eater. I've loved your podcast, especially learning the power of clean fasting. I recently got a CGM." Oh, that's exciting. [giggles] Oh, my gosh, I did not plan that. She says, "I love seeing the data in real time. From the data so far, I believe splitting my one meal a day into two smaller meals will help my blood glucose levels. I don't want my volume to be much bigger than it is five to six hour eating window most likely but need help actually reversing my volume eating ritual I've become so comfortable with. I know it's mostly psychological, but probably a bit physiological too, and need some practical advice.

Seems simple really, but would like some motivation from both of you. I know you've talked, Gin, about an “appetizer” before your meal, and Melanie, I think you've talked about some raw veg pre-meal but I just like some more ideas. I need a lot of evidence for my brain to prove that, number one, this can be fun, because it's actually more of a challenge for me than one meal a day. Number two, I can do it with ease and mental stillness. Thank you, and thank you so much for all of the value you put out there in the world."

Gin Stephens: Oh, thank you, Leslie. I actually have heard this from people who have been doing the monitoring through, of course, Zoe, and also through data-driven fasting, people who are using CGMs find that they do have better glucose control with a slightly longer, like you're saying, five-to-six-hour window, and moving eating to farther ends of it, like eat, wait a while, eat again. Of course, we wouldn't know this without CGMs. It's only been recently that we can get them to try them. We're learning a lot, and we're all different, of course, when it comes to how our bodies respond to what we eat. But the key for me is that when I open my window, I need to feel satisfied from it, as if I just tried to nibble a little bit and have a little something, then I'm like starving, and I tend to eat longer and more, because I'm trying to-- I don't know, it doesn't do it for me. It doesn't satisfy me. Lately, I'm doing really well opening my window. Have you ever tried Daily Harvest, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: No, I know, you're a huge fan.

Gin Stephens: I'm a huge fan, and if people want to read more about it, I have it on the Favorite Things tab at ginstephens.com, and they're actually, officially sponsoring Intermittent Fasting Stories Podcast, which is exciting. I've been using them for a while, and they have these harvest bowls and soups that I love, and I've really opened my window with that in those days, for real. I think they're vegan, but I'm not vegan. I might add some butter in there or whatever, but make it a little more satisfying, but I might not. Sometimes, I just do them the way they are. With their soups, I don't usually add as much water as they say. I just put a little bit of water, because I like them thicker instead of more of a soup. But because they're substantial, the ones that I tend to get are the ones that have beans, or lentils, or something like that. A lot of them have kale or sweet potato, and so, they just are so satisfying. I like them because they're hot even in the summer. They're hot, that satisfies me. The hot veggie centric, it fills me up, makes me feel good, and then, I'm perfectly fine to wait till dinner, and I'm not going around eating a bunch of stuff out of the kitchen. So, that would be my appetizers. Some people would consider it a lunch, but to me, it's the soup course. Again, you can find it on ginstephens.com on the Favorite Things tab, or you can just go to dailyharvest.com and use the promo code, IFSTORIES. That works.

Melanie Avalon: They've asked us, I think, before about sponsoring the show.

Gin Stephens: Well, I just really loved them. See that's for me, a lot of the companies that sponsor Intermittent Fasting Stories start off with I'm using them. Like Green Chef, for example. They sponsored this one too, and I was like, “Get me Green Chef,” to the company that finds my advertisers. [laughs] Because it starts with me, ease in them, and then I'm like, I really want this company because I use them and I love them. I also love their smoothies. What I'll do seriously, this is really what I do. I'll have my bowl, and then later, I eat dinner with Chad, and it is often Green Chef, which is funny. Then, later, to close our window, we'll have a Daily Harvest smoothie. I know that sounds nuts, but that really it like--

My mother was just here visiting and we had people over for dinner, so I had to make a big meal because there were seven people for dinner, and I spent so much money on dinner for seven at the grocery store buying all the ingredients, and then we had so much leftover even after the dinner for seven. I just love that it's easy. You’ve got the portion, you eat it, you move on. You don't have leftover everything. My point was that I spend more money at the grocery store than I do with these companies. But that's just the way I shop at the grocery store like a crazy person. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I would love. It'd be funny to see both of us side by side shopping at a grocery store.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm like, “Ooh, that looks good. I'm going to buy that,” and then, I come home and Chad says, “How much was that?” I'm like, “I don't know.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I go in and volume buy, pounds and pounds of the same three things.

Gin Stephens: Now, I'm wandering around buying a little bit of everything, and I always end up with flours, and this cheese, and that cheese, and yeah, crackers.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. [laughs] Totally a different, different cart than Melanie's cart.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. The meal timeline is like a crescendo for both of us. We start light and then there's the main and then light again.

Gin Stephens: But I can't start too light. If I start too light, then I'm eating more than I need. It doesn't satisfy me. I have to make sure whatever I start with satisfies me. I'm like medium-medium. Maybe, medium-light, medium-heavier if [laughs] that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: With Leslie, she's asking how to, in a six-hour window, eat a meal, a smaller meal, stop eating, eat a smaller meal. That's what she's asking about. You know what's really interesting is, our mutual friend, Cynthia Thurlow, I was talking to her yesterday, because she was on Megyn Kelly's show yesterday.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my gosh, that's so exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that so exciting?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We were like fangirling. I listened to it, and it was really good, and I just thought about it, because she talks about this. Megyn asked her to talk about something about the eating window and not snacking between the meals and the eating window. Then, Megyn asked like, “Oh, should you not snack between the meals, if you're having a longer eating window.” I'm paraphrasing. I'll put a link in the show notes to that episode. But basically, what Cynthia was saying was, what Leslie had picked up on here, that people often have better glucose control when they're not overeating or volume eating, that maybe it can be practical to do what Leslie is talking about here. All of that said, I was hoping you were going to have really amazing advice, Gin, because [laughs] I want to do this in theory too, but it just doesn't work for me.

Gin Stephens: Well, the thing is that you just have to work with the appetite you have in the body, you have and what feels good to you. Like I said, If I eat too light, then I tend to overeat. So, I have to make sure I eat enough to be not overeating later. I have learned over time. If I just opened up with an avocado or something, then an hour later, I'd be in there ravenous. Wakes up the appetite, but it wasn't satisfied.

Melanie Avalon: The way my meal manifests is, it is volume eating, and it is eating for pretty much the whole time, but it's not high calorie the whole time. So, basically, and Leslie pointed this out or mentioned this, I basically start with a lot of cucumbers and wine. So, it's basically just hydration, and water, and easily digestible fiber. It's not actual lot of calories. Then, I have my meal-meal, which is lots of meat or seafood, and that's my big volume. Then, I usually munch a lot on fruit after for a long time. So, not at all the approach that Leslie trying to get to either for the attempt of trying a meal, and then stopping, and then a meal. I really like what Gin said about the importance of that first meal, if you're doing it, being something that is going to satisfy you in the moment. It's complicated because you don't want it to make you hungrier, but you don't want it to be the entirety of the meal, and then you don't want to eat again.

Gin Stephens: Well, for me, if I tend to be hungry or early, then, later I'll have a smaller amount at dinner. Sometimes, well, even though it's a meal for two that Chad and I are eating, let's say, it was a Green Chef meal, meal for two, we might get three meals out of that. I might not need the whole portion because I've already eaten. So, I'll eat a smaller portion. Then Chad, he's a light eater for a man. He always has been. That's why he's never had a weight problem. He is slimmer that probably than he was on our wedding day when he was 20. He's probably slimmer now than it was then. So, he's just really lanky and lean, but he's not a giant eater.

Well, he'll eat what I didn't eat for lunch the next day. Maybe he'll supplement it with a bowl of cereal, if it wasn't enough, but I don't always eat a whole complete meal later. I don't eat the whole portion. It just depends, I might. No, I don't need all that much. I might eat half a piece of meat, for example, instead of a whole piece of meat. Last night, that's what happened. We had a chicken meal, and I didn't eat the whole piece of chicken. I ate half the piece of chicken.

Melanie Avalon: Can I make a really quick chicken comment?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: I think last night, remember you're talking about the rubbery chicken?

Gin Stephens: Did you get woody chicken?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: Was it so gross in your mouth and you're like, “What's wrong with this chicken?”

Melanie Avalon: It felt like rubber.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It did not taste good. But it didn't taste like it was bad.

Gin Stephens: No, it's not like spoiled. It's just a different consistency. The meat has a different texture.

Melanie Avalon: What did you say causes that?

Gin Stephens: It's called woody breast syndrome.

Melanie Avalon: Is it a bacteria, or something, or is it--?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't think they know. They're like, “Why are these chickens weird?” I don't know. It's been a while since I read about it, but it's just something weird that makes the breast consistency different. It can't be good.

Melanie Avalon: I was eating, and I was like, “This is Gin's chicken.”

Gin Stephens: It probably is. The first time I had it, I had never had it before, and then, all of a sudden, it started happening all the time. It was a meal kit company that I don't use anymore that it was in all of their-- I got to the point I couldn't order chicken from them. But then, it started happening and the other ones, too. Anyway, it wasn't in last night's chicken.

Melanie Avalon: I'm torn now because there's just one brand of chicken I really like. I like Smart Chicken, because they're organic, and I really like the practices. I've researched the practices they do for raising their chicken, and it's usually really good. But if I do, I buy it in bulk because it's fresh. It's not frozen at the store. So, I buy it in bulk, and then, I individually wrap and freeze all of it. This was from three different containers. So, I don't know which container-- I'm like, should I just--

Gin Stephens: No, don't throw it out. You'll know. It also feels different when it's raw. You can tell the texture is different.

Melanie Avalon: It did when I was doing it. But the thing is, now, I guess I'm just lazy, because I'll have to cook them to find out if it's--

Gin Stephens: No, you can tell when it's raw. You don't normally thaw it before you cook it?

Melanie Avalon: I do, but you think I'll be able to tell when it's thawed from frozen?

Gin Stephens: I can. I can tell. Maybe, thaw too and then, you don't have to eat it that day. You can eat it tomorrow, both are good. Always have one ready to go and whatever, thaw two and use them like a day ahead of when you need it or like the next day. I don't know if I'm explaining that well. But I can tell like, if we get two in the day, when we were using the company that I don't use anymore, I would get two chicken breasts and they were different. You could tell, and I'm like, “Oh, that one's not going to be good. I'm not eating that one.” [laughs] I could tell.

Melanie Avalon: When I first bought it, it felt weird. I was like, “I wonder, if this is the rubbery chicken.” I should have just thrown it away then. Because now, it's all in the freezer. I don't know which is which.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you can tell when it's thawed. But definitely you can tell, and it's weird. I can't eat it, so I'm picky now about my chicken. But I love good chicken.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, me too.

Gin Stephens: There was another meal kit company that I tried very briefly. They were out of California, and they're small. They're good for families, and they use some special chicken that really popular in LA. I can't remember the name of it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, was it Mary’s?

Gin Stephens: No. It's a special breed of chicken. It wasn't a brand of chicken, it was a breed of chicken, like an heirloom breed of chicken and the breasts were tiny like chicken breasts used to be, because chicken breasts are little. I did a lot of reading about chicken like-- Oh, in The Dorito Effect, I think he talks about how chickens have been bred to be so different. The breasts are giant now, and they used to be little. All the great cooks were complaining about how chicken doesn't have a good taste anymore. But I'm like, “God, these were so good, this heirloom chicken. If you can get heirloom chicken with tiny little breasts, the old kind of chicken that hasn't been bred to be giant and weird-- think that's why they have the woody breast. They've been bred to be big. They grow differently. So, anyway, the old kind, it was the best chicken ever. But it tasted different. They didn't have enough options really for us. They didn't have enough choices. So, I didn't continue with them, but it made me really appreciate that heirloom chicken.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I want some chicken.

Gin Stephens: It started with a J. I can't remember the name of it, but it was a breed of chicken. I would eat that all day long. Well, except not all day long. I would eat it all day long in my eating window.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. All in your eating window.

Gin Stephens: I might would eat that all day long. No, I'm kidding.

Melanie Avalon: Back to Leslie's question. I wonder what macros she's doing? I wonder if this would be an easier type of thing to do if you're doing a keto diet?

Gin Stephens: Well, not for me, because keto never made me feel satisfied. That would be a big no. I got to have starchy carbs to feel satisfied. That is just a fact about me. The lentils and the beans, that does it for me. The one with the sweet potato, that one is so good. It has wild rice, sweet potato, and avocado, and you might think that sounds weird because avocado hot, it's so good.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, have I had hot avocado? That does sound really good. My suggestion, I suppose, for this, even though, I have never been able to implement this myself, so take this with a grain of salt. But things I have heard is, she wants to reframe this as fun because it is more of a challenge, the one meal a day. Yes, I think it can be fun. You could see it as a fun experiment of trying to find the meals that work for you for doing this. You could try eating the first meal, and then, I think what's probably really important is putting everything away. Like having the meal in the kitchen, or whatever your living situation is, in the kitchen, finishing the meal, putting the food away, stopping. Rather than keeping it all open and out because then it's more likely that you're just going to keep snacking or keep eating, but being done, and then going and doing something completely different so that part of your brain, that meal association is done. Then, going and doing something else, but having the excitement of knowing that you have your second meal coming, and then going back and having your meal, and reopening the kitchen, and then rinse and repeat. That's the thing that I would recommend.

Then, I would recommend for the in between. I know this is not-- You don't struggle with binge eating. That's not what this is about. But I do recommend reading Dr. Glenn Livingston's book, Never Binge Again. It's a really short read. The Kindle is-- I just learned this, because me and Glenn are really good friends now. We actually talk on the phone a lot, and I didn't realize that the Kindle is actually always free, so you can get it on Amazon. It's a really, really amazing reframe for identifying that voice in your head that wants to eat when you don't need to be eating, or shouldn't be eating, or don't want to eat. So, I think it can be a really helpful practice for making this change if this is a change that you personally want to try to strive for. What it'll help you do is it'll help you in that in between the two meals, identify that voice in your head, that's like, “I want to keep eating,” because I'm assuming that's going to be the challenge of it. And how to adequately engage with that so that it's just not a problem. I would suggest reading that book. It's really short, and it's funny.

Hi friends, are you struggling to lose weight despite fasting clean? Maybe you're even making healthy food choices, fasting more, shortening your eating window, ramping up your exercise, and yet the weight won't budge? Well, we actually just found a major reason for why that may be. As it turns out, there are compounds in our environment called endocrine disruptors, meaning they mess with your hormones. Studies show that a lot of these endocrine disruptors are actually obesogens, meaning they literally make you gain weight. They also make it hard to lose weight. These toxic obesogens are naturally stored in fat. When they enter your body, your body creates fat to store them in to protect you. Once they're in that fat, they then change the genes in your fat stores, so that you are more likely to store more fat and less likely to burn it. They can also affect your insulin signaling and boost your appetite, so you want to eat more and store more fat.

Most of us are actually exposed to these obesogenic endocrine disruptors daily in our skincare and makeup. That is actually one of the largest sources of these compounds. Yep. As it turns out, when you're washing your face, putting on makeup, using lotion, or even putting on sunscreen, you are likely putting 1 of up to 1300 compounds banned in Europe for their toxicity- and obesity-causing potential but they're completely fine for use in US skincare. When you put them on your skin, you're making it that much harder to burn fat, and that much easier to store fat. So, if you're struggling to lose weight, you definitely, definitely want to clean up your skincare ASAP.

You can do that easily with a company called Beautycounter. They make safe skincare and makeup products that are extensively tested to be free of endocrine disrupters, obesogens, and other toxic compounds. They're truly safe and supportive of your health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd also like exclusive discounts, giveaways, and the latest on the science of skincare, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. So, are you fasting clean inside and out? Well, now you can. All right now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we have a question from Tish, and the subject is "CryoToning follow-up." By the way, I don't think I have any cryo places here in Augusta at all. I think I got zero. I could be wrong. Anyway, if someone knows one in Augusta, that'd be interesting. I can't believe I'm asking that. [laughs] I've always said I would never do it. I would never do it, but I've got a little FOMO. I hate to be cold. I like to be hot.

Melanie Avalon: Are you in Columbia County?

Gin Stephens: I'm not in Columbia County. I am in Richmond County. Is there one in Columbia County?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wait.

Melanie Avalon: Here's Cryo Care, Augusta, Georgia. The top 10 cryotherapies in Augusta, Georgia.

Gin Stephens: Oh, there is?

Melanie Avalon: Okay. You can go to Cryo Care.

Gin Stephens: Where's that?

Melanie Avalon: Ronald Reagan Drive.

Gin Stephens: That's Evans. Evans is where I used to teach.

Melanie Avalon: Why is it saying Cryo Care, Augusta, Georgia?

Gin Stephens: Like Atlanta, it has all the suburbs. Evans is a suburb of Augusta.

Melanie Avalon: I'll be searching while you read it.

Gin Stephens: Okay. [laughs] I'm not driving to Evans for cryotherapy. I just want to tell you that. [laughs] I don't like to drive to Evans for any-- It's so funny. It a whole different world. When you live in the city of Augusta, the city limits, you'll your small radius of where you go. We're not a big city at all, but I'm like, “I can only go these places.” [laughs] Do you drive to Evans for my massage therapists?

Melanie Avalon: Gin, it is women owned.

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, but--

Melanie Avalon: It has an oxygen bar and a sauna. But you have a sauna.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I have a sauna. But yeah, I only drive to Evans for my massage therapist and that is all.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, great. When you go for your massage, you can get some cryo. They're open from 10 to 7.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Don't count on that. We'll see. All right, back to Tish’s question. She said, "I've been listening since fall of 2019, and have listened to every episode," and she has a smiley emoji. "Love, love, love the podcast. Really keeps me motivated and reinforces my fasting way of life. I've been one meal a day with a two- to four-hour window since November of 2019 and have lost around 50 pounds. In this last episode, you discussed CryoToning as a potential treatment for collagen replacement/sagging skin. I'm so interested in this topic, but really having a hard time finding the best home device to purchase.

I was wondering, Melanie, if you would really take a deep dive on this topic or did you already, and I missed it? I read your fat cell blog, but I would like more CryoToning specifically, since you said in the latest IF podcast, so, you thought this method might be the best. I am 54 and trying to live till I am 120. I went through menopause when I was 36 naturally, but it wasn't till I lost the 50 pounds that I noticed my skin changed significantly. I Joovv. I have the four-panel full body unit every day. I only eat ButcherBox meats in my clean whole food organic diet. I take P3-OM, MassZymes, Magnesium Breakthrough every day, and I only use Beautycounter products on my skin. I'm doing everything I can to live a cleanish life." Can't wait for this book. Yay. That was me. "I would appreciate your feedback/input. Thanks, and much love to you both, Tish."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Tish, wonderful question. I will put a link in the show notes to that blog that she mentioned. I did write a really extensive blog post about the science of fat cells and traditional methods to reduce them, and by traditional methods like liposuction, things like that. I did not have CryoToning in it at the moment. So, I'm going to add CryoToning to it. By the time this comes out, it should be there. That said, there are not home methods for this.

Gin Stephens: I was just going to say, I don't think there's a home method but-- [giggles]

Melanie Avalon: There are on Amazon. Please, this is not the type of thing that you want to be doing at home at all. At all. They have CryoToning and CryoSlimming. CryoSlimming is the one that's supposed to actually kill flat cells. CryoToning is just for collagen and sagging skin. But they use a combination of therapies. They use certain frequencies and heat and cold. For the CryoSlimming, it literally ruptures the fat cells, and then your body naturally excretes the fat cells to your lymph system. It also does some of the stuff that CryoToning does, and CryoToning helps tighten the skin and increase collagen production. I've been doing it on certain areas and seeing remarkable results.

Even the girl who does it to me, she's really wonderful, but she's very intense and very blunt. When I first went to her, she was like, “Why are you doing this?” She's like, “I don't want to do this on you because you don't really have much to address with it,” which I'm very grateful for, and I just want to make it clear that I'm very aware of this. But we've been doing it so much and she agrees with me. She's like,” Oh, this actually has made a really big difference.” I think it's really great, basically, regardless of where you're at. If you have a lot of things that you want to address with the skin tightening and the collagen production, you'll definitely see a result. But then also, if it's just fine tuning, and tweaking, and something that it just seems that diet and exercise aren't quite addressing, I think it can be that great final thing that is actually effective. I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't personally experienced the benefits. That said, to answer your question, you can't do it at home. I'm sorry. You have to find a place that does it.

Gin Stephens: So, the one you're doing is called what?

Melanie Avalon: I've been doing CryoSlimming and CryoToning. Cryoskin is the company. And then they have the two options, CryoTone and CryoSlim. Basically, they say that it works with your body's natural systems to produce slimming and toning effects. Noninvasive sessions result in slimmer, toned bodies and the elimination of fine lines and wrinkles. They use thermoelectric cooling to perform cryolipolysis which is the freezing of fat, which causes cell death of subcutaneous fat tissue without damage to the overlying skin. That's the CryoSlim. Then, the CryoTone uses cold temperatures to diminish the appearance of cellulite, tones the area, and improves skin elasticity by accelerating the biochemical reaction. Stimulation of collagen production occurs to rejuvenate and smooth skin while tightening muscles. It uses cold, heat, and massage. So, okay.

Gin Stephens: I will say that, if it was available in Augusta, I would be willing to try it. But I'm still skeptic, which you've heard me say before. But I would be willing to try it. But now that I'm officially 52 having had my birthday.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Gin had her birthday. Happy late birthday. I did. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yep. 52, that sounds bizarre to me. I can't believe I'm 52. But my skin really did change over the past year after menopause. It's surprising.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have your plant?

Gin Stephens: I do have my plant. Thank you, Melanie, sent me a plant.

Melanie Avalon: We have matching plants. I have that plant too.

Gin Stephens: I used to have one of those plants in my other house, and then, it died when we moved over here. I don't know why it died, but it died. But I've had it in the exact same place that we used to have the other one-

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yay.

Gin Stephens: -that died. It looks really cute there. So, hopefully it won't die.

Melanie Avalon: Is it a dollar tree?

Gin Stephens: Yep, or money tree. It's called a money tree.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, money tree. Money tree.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Will came over yesterday. He was painting, he was like, “I'm going to paint this plant.” So, he painted it.

Melanie Avalon: He painted the plant?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, he painted a picture of the plant. He didn't literally paint on the plant.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Firstly, you have a big plant now?

Gin Stephens: No. He painted a picture of the plant. Yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I’m so excited. That makes me happy. Happy late birthday.

Gin Stephens: Thank you. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: So, hopefully, the answers your question, Tish. Hopefully, you can find a practitioner by you. I think we have one really short question we can answer really quick.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Question from Paul, "Is infused water breaking the fast?" Paul says, "Hi, ladies. Your podcast keeps my IF going. Thanks so much. I've been doing 16:8 for two months. I don't get any weight loss but I love that I can skip my breakfast. Life is much simpler and the fasting window actually feels great. I can handle more stress and I have less mental fatigue. Quick question. I find that drinking infused water during the fasting window helps reduce my hunger. I'm not talking about sweet fruits, but lemon, lime, cucumber, celery, mint, spinach, and ginger. Are they okay to drink? Thanks, Paul."

Gin Stephens: The answer is, no, Paul. They're not. I'm sorry. They are food flavors. We don't want to send any food cues from flavor to our body during the fast. You mentioned you've been doing 16:8 for two months, you're not losing any weight. I would start fasting without the infused water. You really shouldn't be getting hungry. It makes me think you're not fat adapted yet. Honestly, the infused water could be preventing that. Because if you're like starving, and it's just trying to get to lunch, and you're hungry, and you can't even get 16 hours without feeling so hungry that you need infused water, that lets me know you're not really getting the benefits from the fasted state. So, plain water, don't add lemon, don't add lime, don't add anything to it that tastes like food. Plain. No flavor, just water.

I know that sounds counterintuitive, but if it were me, I would try to have a slightly longer fast just till your body gets fat adapted. You've got to break through to get to the other side. Maybe try an 18-hour window for a little while. You see how that goes. Clean fast, plain water, black coffee, plain tea only. No flavors, fast clean, try 18 hours, I bet you'll find your hunger, boom, goes away. Then, also, if you're trying to get weight loss, maybe, you're not, maybe you just feel great, and that's your goal. Chad does a 16:8, never wanted to lose weight. He just feels better. But he also doesn't get hungry during the fast because he only drinks black coffee and plain water. So, try that.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I knew you would answer that.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely. I knew what I would say. [laughs] I love when people are like, “I was listening to the podcast and I already knew how you would answer it.” Yeah, because I'm pretty consistent with my answer. So are you. We should probably have listeners try to answer it. That would be fun. Guess the answer. How do you think general answer this question?

Melanie Avalon: We could come up with some fun thing for our-- what episode is this? [crosstalk] 300th episode.

Gin Stephens: That'll be-- before you know it, it'll be 300. That's crazy. We've been doing this for a long time, and we've never missed a week airing one.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Right, right, right, right. Yeah, most podcasts have breaks, and time off, and best of. Not us.

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy. We've reflected on this before, but there have been times where we haven't recorded a certain week, but we pretty much talk almost every single week for how many years? Since 2017?

Gin Stephens: 2017, over four years, because we started in April or the first one came out May?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Four years? Wow. That's crazy. Well, it's been a lovely time. [laughs] For listeners if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode226. You can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.comstuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and we're also @ifpodcasts on Instagram. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you Gin before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. You can also follow me on Instagram as @cleanishgin. I haven't done anything with it yet. It’s pretty boring. [laughs] One day, there might be something there, besides my cat. I just had to put some pictures in, Instagram made me. They’re like, "You've got to put in some pictures," and I just thought put something-- you've already seen them. It's my cat and my chairs. Anyway, follow us on Instagram.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 01

Episode 224: Frustration In Gaining Weight, Hashimoto’s, Changing Diets, Headaches, Iron Supplements, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 224 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2  Grass Fed Ribeye Steaks And 2 Lobster Tails All For Free!

 JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

PREP DISH: Prep Dish Is An Awesome Meal Planning Service Which Sends You Weekly Grocery And Recipe Lists, So You Can Do All Your Meal Preparation At Once, And Be Good To Go For The Week! It's Perfect For The IF Lifestyle! The Meals Are All Gluten-Free, Keto, Or Paleo, Which Is Fantastic If You're Already Doing So, But Also A Wonderful Way To Try These Out With No Feelings Of Restriction! Get A Free 2 Week Trial With The Paleo, Keto, And SUPER Fast Menus (Plus More!) At prepdish.com/ifpodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 Grass Fed Ribeye Steaks And 2 Lobster Tails All For Free!

4:00 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

20:30 - PREP DISH: Get a free 2 week trial At Prepdish.com/ifpodcast! You'll get weekly gluten-free and Paleo grocery and recipe lists!!

22:20 - Listener Feedback:  Sarah - From Vegetarian-Ish To Carnivore-Ish

30:40 - Listener Q&A: Laura - IF In The News

37:40 - Listener Q&A: Shelby - Frustrated

45:35 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

48:35 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - IF Headaches

51:30 - Listener Q&A: Roxy - Supplements

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 224 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get two grass-fed ribeye steaks and two wild-caught lobster tails all for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that's really hard to find by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door.

When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone, that includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company.

All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished, that's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency for quality and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal. And it's so easy, everything ships directly to your door.

I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought this is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? And their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? And now, you can celebrate this summer by savoring every moment. For a limited time ButcherBox is offering new members two free lobster tails and two free ribeye steaks in their first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, to receive this special offer. Yes, that's free lobster tails and ribeyes in your first box when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. And join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 224 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great.

Melanie Avalon: Great. What's new in your world?

Gin Stephens: Did I tell you last week? I don't know if I mentioned it on the podcast, Fast. Feast. Repeat. is now available in Spanish.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Did I say it on the podcast?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I think so.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, I'm just so excited. I couldn't remember if I did. It's also in Italian. It's available for sale right now. Spanish and Italian, more languages coming.

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting. I don't even remember what languages are coming.

Melanie Avalon: I hope it's in French sometime.

Gin Stephens: I don't remember French if that one's coming, but the way it works, it's really different. A lot of people probably don't know, I just certainly didn't know, but the book is originally purchased, for example, by my publisher for the English translation or for the English rights-- I mean, there's no translation because, hello, I'm English, or I write in English, but the English version is what we were under contract for. The foreign rights are a whole different thing. Every company that is in another country is separate from my original publisher, and they have to negotiate for foreign rights for that specific language. They're all separate publishers. It's really interesting. I would have assumed that my original publisher would be the one that would just keep it and do the-- no.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's so interesting how everything works. Unless you are in that world, you don't realize all of the stuff that happens.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I had no idea. Then, with the foreign editions, you have so much less control over them than you do with the ones right here that are coming out of the US. Like the Italian one has a whole different name and the cover is funny. It's a cupcake. Have you seen the picture of it? It's like a cupcake with an on-off switch.

Melanie Avalon: No, you just told me about it.

Gin Stephens: Nobody showed me that or asked me about it before-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because the evening window opens and we eat cupcakes.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. I guess, I don't know, but I thought that was just really funny and the name of it, is not Fast. Feast. Repeat. in Italian. I think the story for that one is translating Fast. Feast. Repeat. into Italian was weird, like the way they had to translate it made no sense. So, they had--

Melanie Avalon: So, what's the title?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: I'm super curious.

Gin Stephens: It's an Italian, so I-- [laughs] But it's not Fast. Feast. Repeat. but it is Fast. Feast. Repeat. Anyway. Just look for Gin Stephens, that will help you find them if you're looking for them in another language.

Melanie Avalon: Is there like an Italian Amazon?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they have Amazons all over the place and I know this because Delay, Don't Deny is self-published. I published it through Amazon's publishing arm, Amazon is my publisher, really. I get royalty checks from Amazon, but I get one from Amazon Canada and one from Amazon Europe. It's all like where Delay, Don't Deny sells, wherever Amazon sold it, I get a separate royalty check from them. It's fascinating. The paperback just became available in Australia for Delay, Don't Deny because Delay, Don't Deny is print on demand. So, when someone orders it, they print it. So, different places are printing it all over the world, but Amazon in Australia just started printing the American books. If it was published by me in America, you can now get it. You could get it before through several weird places that were probably all counterfeit. The Kindle version has been available in Amazon all the time, but they didn't have print on demand for American books, and now they do. Anyone wanting to get Delay, Don't Deny in Australia, you can now get the actual non-counterfeit version directly in Australia.

Melanie Avalon: Very nice.

Gin Stephens: It is nice. What's up with you, what's new?

Melanie Avalon: I'm really happy right now because Gary Taubes asked if I would tweet about our episode.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's good.

Melanie Avalon: If you had told me like 10 years ago, Gary Taubes would ask me to tweet about our episode-- so that he could retweet it. I don't know. I really like the surreal moments because I released that episode on Friday.

Gin Stephens: Well, that is so exciting that he loved it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Well, it was more just like my assistant since the announcement email to the guest every week, he just said basically, “Can we tweet about it?” So, he could tweet? I was like, “Oh, of course, I can." And then I got on Twitter, because I haven't logged into Twitter in months, like months, and I had all of these-- like Dr. Steven Gundry had tweeted about me, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, I think I might start trying to up my Twitter game.

Gin Stephens: I do have some exciting news. I'm not going to tell all of it, but I can tell a little bit of it.

Melanie Avalon: What is that?

Gin Stephens: Someone that I love and respect and admire in the health and nutrition world, agreed to write the foreword for Clean(ish). I heard from his assistant that he is done with it. I haven't seen it yet. She's reading it and is going to get it to me next week. I don't want to say who it is till I have it in my hands. [laughs] Once I have it in my hands, I’ll announce who is writing the foreword for Clean(ish). No, it's not Jason Fung, if people are probably guessing, because it's not a fasting book, remember? I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: I'm excited. I know who it is.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you know who it is. But [exhales] it's someone I admire greatly, who does great science, and I can't wait to see what he said in the foreword. It really is exciting. I sent him a draft copy and said, “By the way, as you're skimming through it, if you see anything,” you're like, “this is just garbage. This is terrible. This book is the worst book ever,” you know how you're worried about books. But so far, I haven't gotten any emails like that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure that was not even remotely the case.

Gin Stephens: Well, anyway, [exhales] I went through the copy editing this week as well, which, oh, I love copy editors. Y'all are the best, any copy editors that might be listening. They do a lot of work.

Melanie Avalon: They do. I cannot be a copy editor.

Gin Stephens: No, no, apparently, I could not be--[crosstalk] Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. I feel like I might be good at it, but I wouldn't like doing it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I feel there weren't a lot of errors. It's not like there were a million things. It really only took me a couple hours to go through the copy edits, which was kind of amazing. I set aside like days, I was going to go through them, but it was like little things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, one other thing to share. There's this biohacking magazine. They were asking if I would write an article for it. So, I was trying to decide what to write on. I decided to write on either intermittent fasting for women, or early versus late night eating. I posted in my group about it and asked for what would people prefer? I think it's literally 50/50. People really want both articles. Now I'm trying to sit down, I'm going to do it early versus late night eating. I'm going to find all the studies and I'm going to read them and I'm going to see what's actually going on. But it's so frustrating. I found this one article that is talking about early versus late night intermittent fasting, and it's so frustrating

Gin Stephens: Is this the one where they didn't compare equal eating windows?

Melanie Avalon: It's a review. It's not a study. Basically, the first half of it talks about the hormonal differences between early and late-night eating and why early is better in theory, which I agree with. But then it talks about the actual studies on it. It's really confusing when an agenda is so blatant. It is just so obvious that they want to say early eating is better, because they make that case with the hormones. But then they talk about the actual studies, and literally at one point, they say that there's only one study that actually looks at this, and that it doesn't find a difference. Before that, they talk all about all of the studies on breakfast skipper problems and how breakfast eaters have health benefits, which again, I agree with, but I think it's because it's complicated and nuanced, and probably more has to do with the type of person that needs breakfast, and all of that.

When it comes down to it, they say that there's only one study and it doesn't show a difference. Yet, the conclusion they draw is that early is better with comments like how the data shows that, I'm like, “Wait, but you just said that there's only one study and it doesn't show that.”

Gin Stephens: Again, so much of the stuff they're looking at is in the paradigm of eating all day. So, if you're eating all day, you're going to be at a very different place by the end of the day than if you had fasted all day and eaten later. You're going to respond very differently to a meal at 4:00 PM if it's your first meal of the day, versus if now you it's your fifth time you've eaten.

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I just don't think you can untangle that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and one of the other things that says, and this is where I was just like, "Oh my gosh," they say that, like people who eat late, the type of foods we eat at night are more sugary and fattening, I'm like, “Wait, breakfast cereals are pure sugar.”

Gin Stephens: When I was at the beach with my family, some of the members of the family, what they were eating at breakfast time, they bought like honeybuns. I'm not judging my family. I would feel so terrible if I ate that. I've never liked donuts, I think I've said that before, which is crazy. I just never have but like, I've never wanted to start the morning with a honeybun, but that is really the sugariest, most ultra-processed thing you could eat. It would set me up for a day of metabolic awfulness.

Melanie Avalon: What's so frustrating about it is you're making an argument where you're trying to analyze early versus late-night eating, it's not valid, in my opinion, to talk about the food composition, because that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about the timing. It's not even relevant. Then, on top of that, saying that you're more likely to eat bad foods at night. Okay, who-- that's not what we're testing. We just talked about how breakfast foods are usually pretty awful. So, I don't know. It's really frustrating.

Gin Stephens: I'm not convinced.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't seen anything that shows the hormonal profile being more supportive of late-night eating. So, in theory, it works better for the morning, but the practicality of it and people actually doing it, and what makes you sustainable, I think is way, way more important. This is what I think my conclusion is going to be, and I need to do more research because I just started, but I feel you're probably more likely to benefit from the window-- it is like with exercise, like the window that you do. So, if later eating window is sustainable, and that's what makes you happy, and that's what you can stick to, I think that's probably way better than forcing yourself into an early eating window.

Gin Stephens: Do you know what my best evidence is for any of this, is the fact that our bodies let us know what feels good. We get feedback from our bodies. When we just tell people, find the window that works for you, and then the great majority of them gravitate to a late