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Welcome to Special Guest Episode 448 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

Jay Campbell is a 5x international best selling author, men’s physique champion, founder of the Jay Campbell Brand/Podcast and Co-Founder of BioLongevity Labs.

Recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on hormonal optimization and therapeutic peptides, Jay has dedicated his life to teaching Men and Women how to #FullyOptimize their health while also instilling the importance of Raising their Consciousness.

Jay’s website JayCampbell.com (where he’s been writing online since 2006) offers some of the most deeply researched articles on the topics of hormone optimization, peptides, fat loss, fitness, and spirituality.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 448 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 448 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with such a special guest. Friends, prepare to have your minds completely blown. The backstory on today's conversation is last year, by the time this came out, I met in person an incredible human being, Jay Campbell, at the Biohacker Self-Premier in Vegas. I was actually hosting on the red carpet there, and he was one of the guests on my carpet, which was so incredible. And I was actually already familiar with his work because he is a legend in the world of a few topics, peptides in particular, as well as helping people really get shredded, really just optimize their body composition, burn fat, gain muscle, all the things. He is beyond incredible. So I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast for a deep, deep dive into peptides. We just went all out on everything peptides, which I'm sure we will touch on today, but just in case, listen to that episode as well, because it's like the Bible episode now for me that I will refer people to for peptides. In any case, we had that show, and immediately after, I just knew he had to come on this show because you guys are going to love the topics that we talk about. Since then, he has so many books. I read his book, 30 Days to Shreds, which is a really intense protocol, which we're going to talk about, where it outlies based on where you're at, whether you are a beginner, an advanced, or what we will talk about, an FFO approach to radically losing weight, maintaining even potentially gaining muscle, all the things, the supplements to use, the dietary protocol to follow, all of that. And of course, he talks a lot about fasting, and that is just one of his books. He has so many books, and he has just so much knowledge in general. So I'm really excited about this conversation that we're about to have. Jay, thank you so much for everything that you do, and thank you for being here.

Jay Campbell
Melanie, thank you. And that was a very humbling, awesome introduction. I'm grateful to be here as always.

And like I said, you're like one of the best, if not the best podcast interviewer that I've ever worked with. And that's saying a lot because I've been on a lot of podcasts. So I'm very excited today to be in your studio talking to you and having this awesome conversation.

Melanie Avalon
You are simply the kindest and my compliment to echo back this, and I mean this in the nicest way, and you actually on the last conversation, you called me a fellow Jim bro, which I took. So that was like the best moment ever.

You know, you were in that world of quote, like Jim bros, and you are the most, okay, all of the potentially problematic stereotypes that exist there. You are not those, if you know what I mean.

Jay Campbell
I received that and reflect that back, yes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you're so so intelligent. Not I'm not saying I'm not trying to make like negative, you know, stigmas about other people, but you are so intelligent, so nuanced, and really have the information people need to know to, you know, look like the Jim bros.

So I actually have an elephant in the room question about that. But before that, for people who are not familiar with your work, could you tell them a little bit about your personal story? You know, what led you to what you're doing today? That's a big question.

Jay Campbell
And thank you again for that. I'm grateful to be here.

I'm always humbled and privileged and honored whenever I get a chance to talk to a fellow Jim, bro, who really knows their, their way around the space, which clearly you do. So just like a hundred thousand some foot version of my life, ex college athlete, played basketball. was the oldest of nine children, always had this incredible voracious appetite of understanding the human physique, of understanding the human body, why the body performed in the way that it did. And later in my 20s, like I kicked in the testicles playing in adult men's basketball league. At the time I knew none of this, but obviously I learned this later. It shut me down from a hypogonado axis standpoint and I ended up being testosterone deficient in what is called class two hypogonadism, which is essentially an environmental loss or suppression of testosterone. And this was in 1999, Melanie, and fast forward to now and you look around and you notice and understand how prevalent like hormonal deficiencies are in just the overall general populace. I kind of think it was a synchronicity in my life at that time, because I was one month from turning 30 when this happened. And then I became cognizant of the wonderful world of therapeutic hormones. To make a long story short, I basically went to a doctor about seven or eight weeks after getting kicked because I started feeling run down and my body was destroyed. And the doctor that I went to was just a garden variety, PPO, you know, primary care physician. And he recommended me to an endocrinologist. And of course the endocrinologist happened to be a Harvard educated guy. And he put me on therapeutic testosterone and then told me that, you know, eight weeks later he could take me off. But after being on for eight weeks, it was like a transformational change to my body, my mind, everything. And I told him, I said, there's no way you're taking me off this. This is life changing. And from that moment forward, I became this voracious student of biohacking, you know, underground drug and peptide. And, you know, if you want to call them steroids, testosterone, whatever, I just became this like meticulous student of experimenting on myself, you know, being in bodybuilding and various underground anonymous news forums and stuff. Because again, back then in the infancy of the internet, everybody had an anonymous handle, nobody used their real name. So in that time, you know, and let's just call this from like 1999 to 2010, 2011, I was using peptides, I was using testosterone, I was using, you know, micro dosages of steroids, micro dosages of growth hormone, micro doses of everything. So I self hacked myself and that's the best way to say it, or self biohacked myself by experimenting on myself.

And then eventually the smart people in my network said, dude, you got to write books about this because you know so much about this.

Jay Campbell
And at the time, you know, I was just a guy that was in, I worked in digital marketing and advertising, both in the real estate and the automotive space. And I wasn't, you know, whoever the hell I am now today, which is I guess a biohacker slash influencer.

But I learned all this stuff, you know, from a cutting edge standpoint and cut my teeth and all this stuff. And then I started writing books and my first book came out in 2015, it was called the definitive TRT manual. And it became the number one selling book on men's health for Amazon for like, I want to say six months in 2016. And then from there, I wrote four more books, actually seven more books, but four of the next seven, all were international bestsellers. Like you said, there were two books on fasting, the metabolic blowtorch diet, 30 days to shreds, but the testosterone optimization therapy Bible, which is still the number one selling book of all time on therapeutic hormones and really is a Bible. It's 700 pages. There's just so much information in there. I mean, most of the people in the biohacking space, that's kind of where they know me from that book, you know, the Ben Greenfield's, the Dave Asprey's of the world. And then I wrote my book on peptides in 2023 and it came out, you know, again, no coincidence. It's only synchronicities right at the like peak of the vaccine injury part of the world. And so like when the book came out, all these people were looking for alternative forms of healing. And my book just literally happened to come out on Amazon on January 30th, 2023.

And that book, when it came out, it's called Optimize Your Health with Therapeutic Peptides. It was the second book on peptides because the only other book on peptides that was on Amazon was Dr. Seed's book. And, you know, my book has blown by his book from a sales standpoint. And again, it's because it's more relatable, it's more lay, you know, garden variety people who are non-climations can read it and can understand it. But obviously subsequently since then, a lot of people have written books on peptides and truthfully, I'm actually blown away at how quality some of them are. There's some really bad ones, but there's some really good ones. And so my newest book is Coming, which is not out yet, which is actually a book on GLP peptides or how to use GLP peptides. And it's absolutely phenomenal. And I don't know when it's coming out because I'm so busy with scaling my company and doing all these things I'm doing right now.

But my hope is that it'll be in people's hands by, you know, right before Black Friday or sometime like in November. Might even come out the weekend that I'm speaking at Hack Your Health. But that book is really, really good. And my copywriting team has spent a lot of time and editing it and cutting it and doing stuff to make it relatable to the general public. Because I think you know right now that most people will not read anything.

Jay Campbell
They want short 10 second video blurbs. So you got to really make it, you know, to the point, concise, short-handed, how can people use a GLP productively and not go so far deep into the weeds that people will be lost in the science, but at the same time have enough that the clinical people will find value in it.

So it's not an easy job or production today to write a book and to serve both the scientific community and the lay community.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. So many things. So many questions for you there.

And yeah, so for listeners, the peptide book is the one that I read before the interview for the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, which truly was a paradigm shift and which I was actually, I was embarrassed that I hadn't really dived into the peptide world yet. I don't know why I hadn't that much. It has completely opened my eyes. Quick question. Just going off of what you just said with writing a new book and everything with the, I used to say the admin, but I guess with, with the role of AI now, do you find with AI, cause I use it a lot for, well, helping with writing, answering questions, things like that. Do you agree with its perspective on these different topics or does it kind of censor itself, go conventional? I'm just curious about AI.

Jay Campbell
So you're going to be blown away at this and this could be generational. I refuse to use AI.

You don't use it at all Will not absolutely will not I have looked at what people have sent me because again My name is so ubiquitous in peptides and hormones And so I would say 70% of the information that grok uses on about peptides is my information So like I can see where it's wrong and no instantly Right. So you've got you. Here's the problem. You've got a lot of crowd-sourced information Well, look the easiest way to talk about AI and not insult it is garbage in garbage out The signal to noise ratio on the internet now is 95% noise and 5% signal So you can't expect grok or chat GP 3 3 or 4 whatever levels it is or any of the AI processors or computers to truly give you quality information because all it's doing is searching crap and Then mimicking what it finds. That's the crap and the problem with it is that it's so Regurgitates, you know mainstream Calm elite whatever you want to whatever the people or beings that control this realm of existence Like they've got like pattern recognition And so the pattern recognition is always going to default to like the stereotypical stuff And so you're not gonna always get the truth I mean if you really understand how to coach grok you can probably get 95% accuracy, but most people don't So I stay away from it and no I do not use AI to respond to questions or anything like that because it actually drives Me crazy. I know that there's probably some Utilitarian use for it, but I'm just maybe old-school, you know, I mean again, I'm 54 years old. I mean, I'll be 55 in February So it's like I kind of just avoid it But I'm sure there's a lot of ways that I could use it that would really help me like we're doing a documentary On peptides right now and I know the crew they're all like late 30s, you know Early 40s guys that are involved in the production in the direction and they're all like using AI for everything so it's like I understand that it might be a little generational but I Definitely know that you have to be very careful because a lot of the information that it pulls is it is absolutely not true

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that all completely makes sense. Yeah, I use it.

It's funny, I was just doing hiring for my company. And so I was trying to go through like proposals. And one of the filters I use to immediately just like x people off was if I could tell that they used AI for their answers. If I saw long dashes, I was like, nope.

Jay Campbell
No, that's what I mean. Honestly, that's what I would do too.

And it's it's funny you say that because we have so many people that pitch us for my companies to for writing and building funnels and stuff. And that's the first question I say, you know, I literally will respond and say, if you can answer this question, in the next 20 minutes and not use AI, I'll consider having a call with you. That's literally what I say to them. And I would not I'm not joking when I tell you this, that eliminates 95% to 98% of the

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I get concerned, but then I'm like, well, at least I guess people can keep using AI to do all the things, but can they actually like show up in real life? You know? So I don't know.

It's an interesting world to be in. I'll use it. So for emails, I have one trained because I'm an erotic about typos. So I have one called emails and it knows literally just fixed grammar, do not add things, do not use long dashes. And so I'll use that to like really optimize writing emails.

Jay Campbell
I wish I had somebody that could be my assistant, like that's really what I need because I'm such a quantum person. It's so hard, like I've gone through so many people and by the way, I'm like the easiest boss ever because I'm like, I give you full autonomy but I also give you enough rope to hang yourself.

So it's like, I feel like if I could get an AI assistant that could actually go through my emails and delete everything that's non-essential, I would be, it would be the greatest achievement of my life because I cannot, I mean, I'm sure you're the same way. I mean, like I'm a very organized person but I literally cannot see all my emails anymore. And I do have two people that do my calendar and I have a girl that does my live stream stuff but like I can't hire an assistant to go through my emails because the level of like quantum information, they can't process it. You know what I mean? Like I know that sounds egoic but like I've gone through so many people, it's like it's a waste of attempting. And then as you know, you gotta train people. You know, so it's like, you gotta also deal with that. But so I wish I could find an AI that can literally just literally delete all non-essential emails, filter the ones that have to be read like on an every other day or maybe even a daily basis. If somebody could develop something like that, that's when I would say AI would be useful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, I will keep my eyes peeled. If I see it, you'll be texting you. Okay.

So elephant in the room question. We were mentioning like this gym bro world, this world of, you know, becoming shredded, optimizing weight loss, all the things. And something I have found really fascinating throughout the years is on the one hand, we have this culture where like crash dieting is seen as a really horrible thing. And you shouldn't be taking, you know, that like weight loss pills don't work, diet pills don't work. You shouldn't try to lose weight fast. You know, you should go low and slow, lose a little bit a week. Like that's what we're taught as and it has like a like a moral halo to it in a way. Like that's what we should be doing. And we should not be doing these other things. And what I've always been fascinated by and, you know, hearing your background and like we've talked about is I was always in the rabbit hole weeds of the forums and like there are things that do work, you know, and seem like they do help. So what do you say to people who want to lose weight? Oh, A, want to burn fat. B, want to do it fast. Is it possible that that actually could be like a better approach than losing it slow? How do you just handle this elephant in the room of conventional society and the stigma against fast weight loss, diet pills, all the things?

Jay Campbell
It's an amazing question and I would have answered it totally differently 10 years ago than I average it now and I will tell you this. I'm so glad you asked me this question because when this podcast is over, I am writing an email that will go out either tonight or tomorrow that literally says Jay Campbell's ultimate shred protocol for 2025 and this is how relevant your question is to this.

My shred protocol has changed in three months from where it was in April and it's already I would say three to five X better than it was in April and my shred protocols are the best red protocols in the world and the reason that I say that I'm not bragging is because I have this incredibly advanced knowledge of peptides by regulators and small molecules. So think of every tip of the spear bleeding edge product that is out there or available or in the underground community and I'm either using it or no of it, right? So it's like 10 years ago. I would have said fat loss is, you know, methodical slow to do it, right? You know, you have to sacrifice. You have to pretty much starve yourself. You have to become comfortable with being hungry, you know, there's a lot of things that you have to do will power intestinal fortitude. But Melanie, those days are gone. We now live in a world where there are chemical agents at people's disposal that can enhance metabolic rate, can increase glucogen production, can dramatically upregulate thyroid, can dramatically upregulate mitochondrial firepower and density. I mean, there are so many insane metabolic cascades that can be induced from chemicals, peptides, bioregulators, small molecules, GLP peptides, I mean, you name it, that I would be ridiculous and lying if I told somebody they could not literally lose 20% body fat in under 30 days because it's totally possible.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And 10 years ago when you thought low and slow was the way to go, this was while you were still experimenting with different compounds though, right? Oh, a hundred percent.

Jay Campbell
Yeah, I mean, again, and I say this all the time, so this isn't the first time I said this on this podcast, but within 24 months, the world of bodybuilding, performance enhancement, fitness modeling, bikini competitions, you know, whatever you want to call for people that have to get into single digit body fat will be completely transformed. Like the professional bodybuilding world will have people that will be standing on stage 350 pounds with 5% body fat. Like that's literally where we're going because these chemical agents are so transformative and so life altering. And I would also be lying if I told you that they were risky because they're really not.

I mean, you know, you and I on the last podcast, we talked about a little bit about GLPs and I tell people that GLPs actually improve biomarkers. They're enhancing longevity. So you know, the only question is, you know, again, I think you and I talked about this on the last call is, do we as a society blow ourselves up before we get to this level of you call it pharmaceutical enhancement or biomedical or bio biochemical enhancement? I don't know. I think it's coin flip, but I definitely know that the meds and the chemicals that are out there are so mind blowing. I mean, I had a call this morning with a biochemist in China. There is already an injectable peptide. It's not available in the mainstream, but it will be available soon that you can inject into stubborn fat and it literally through apoptosis liquefies the fat and is gone in two days. And it's perfectly healthy. You pee it out or you defecate it out, you know, the dead cells. There's no necrosis. There's no ulcers or sores or anything from the site injection. It literally is like taking an injection of an insulin needle and liquefying stubborn fat. That's not a lie. So that's where we are. And that's why I'm saying that within two years, it will be it'll be it'll be so revolutionary that I can't even in my brain power and my knowledge of all this stuff even comprehend where it will be because it'll be so far ahead of where we are. And that's why I'm saying that literally we are now in a world where every three months is like a 10 year quantum leap.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I have so many questions for you. I love this conversation so much.

It's so interesting because I just remember back in the day when I first started exploring all of this and I would think about it like scientifically. I was like, it makes sense that if we have fat cells that have signaling mechanisms that tell them to do things like release their fat or not, it just makes sense that there would be certain compounds that would help with that. This was me, I guess, feeling weird about wanting to be holistic and go low and slow, but then be like, it just makes sense that there would be things that would do things logically. So actually, quick question for you, and this is crazy timing. That was a moment when you were saying that you'd be lying if you said they were risky. I was like, does he mean not risky? But no, then you followed it up to say that they're relatively safe. Actually, last night, I was actually getting my hair done and the woman getting her hair done next to me was saying, and again, this is like an end of one example, but I think it might speak to a potential larger issue at play. In her business, this is wild, she had two people in her business, both ordered GLP ones from a pharmacy offshore and took high doses. This is really tragic. They actually both got really, really sick.

The first girl got really, really sick, went to the hospital stirring up for days and died, and now the second girl is in the hospital with a similar situation. I'm not saying it was from that. I'm just asking and wondering because especially in her books, and you mentioned this when you were doing your intro about different compounds that people might acquire and bringing in what you were saying about the garbage and garbage out, what is the role of acquiring these different compounds, safety, knowing you're getting what you're getting, dosage? What do we need to know about that?

Jay Campbell
Yeah, it's a great question. And I'm glad you asked this question because for 95% of people, they don't know what they're doing.

And that's what that woman dying is. I mean, that's not atypical, but that's getting sick, destroying receptor sensitivity, regaining the weight, damaging the thyroid, getting wagobi face, wagobi neck, wagobi chin, wagobi ass, all those things are very real, happening, side effects, byproducts, whatever you want to call it, of uneducated use. And we are now in a market, remember what I told you about the signal to noise ratio. The noise is so far drowning out the signal that the average person who attempts to use a peptide like a GLP1 has no earthly idea what they're doing when they take it, none. And unfortunately, our medical establishment, I mean, you know, I'm a very anti-allopathic doctor, I mean, allopathic medicine slash illness medicine proponent, but it has failed miserably, and it is now collapsing in on itself. And so anyone who gets their knowledge from their, quote unquote, garden variety, PCP, family doctor, HMO doctor, whatever you want to call it, and obviously also, you know, precurs prescriptions for what GLPs is headed down a very dark path. They will end in tragic failure. And again, loss of life is, you know, rare occurrence for this, but loss of metabolism, loss of livelihood, loss of muscle, those are all very realistic possibilities and actual probabilities.

So to your question, If you're using these, you better be listening to the right people. You better be understanding that, and again, this is just a garden rule that no one should cross anymore. If you're going to use a GLP1 peptide and you're not going to microdose, it is going to end in colossal failure. And what I mean by that is that the pharmaceutical industry teaches people when they buy GLP peptides to start high and go higher with dosage. And the Jake Hambles of the world, and there are thankfully other people as smart as me teaching people about this, we teach people to start low and go slow. So you've got a massive dichotomy on how you do this. If you start low and go slow, you will not have major side effects. I will say you will probably have no side effects if you truly do understand the lifestyle that comes along with doing this right.

And again, we talked about this on the last podcast, but the lifestyle of using a GLP1 peptide is very simple. There's 10 commandments, but I'll give you three. And number one is, are you living an insulin controlled lifestyle when you're using a GLP? Because if you're not living an insulin controlled lifestyle when you're using a GLP, you don't have the foundations set up correctly. The second one is, are you eating enough protein to avoid muscle loss and catabolism? And enough protein is defined as, are you eating enough grams of protein for your goal body weight? Because a 400 pound man or a 300 pound woman cannot eat that much protein. They have to eat the amount of protein that is their goal body weight.

Jay Campbell
It's actual skeletal muscle weight, but 99% of people can't figure that out. So you just say, what is your goal body weight, right? You're a five, five woman, and you weigh 180. You probably should be 130, right?

You're a six foot guy and you weigh 290. You probably should be 100, 195 to 200 pounds. So it's like, that's the amount of protein you would eat. And then the third rule and third rule might be number one is, are you hormonally optimized? Because if you're not hormonally optimized and you use a GLP drug, which is again, a highly effective drug, and let's talk about defining them just really quick. There's GLP1s, GLP2s, GLP3s. GLP1 is appetite suppression. GLP2 is appetite suppression and glucogen stimulation, which is metabolic rate enhancing. And then GLP3 is all those two things plus the increase in brown adipose tissue, which is again, increasing resting thermogenesis. So you've got like three, two levels of enhanced metabolic rate plus appetite suppression. So if you're, if you're using any of those drugs and you're not hormonally optimized, you're putting yourself behind the eight ball to see muscle loss.

So again, if you're on a man or a woman and you're on therapeutic hormones, whether you're 35 or 65, the likelihood that you're going to lose muscle is very minimal. Okay. So those are the three kinds of ground rules. There's other things that we could throw in there, but I don't want to bring those up for the purposes of this, but obviously anyone who really wants to understand how to do this, I have a course that's like, you know, I give it away for $149. It's called the GLP1 masterclass. And I go over all those things and I go over the 10 commandments and all the different things, but it's very, very simple to avoid the catastrophic things that you talked about in the question that those two women, you know, brought up to you.

And again, average people who go to the doctor and get a GLP scripted are going to end in that, that unfortunate tragic, not death because that's an outlier, but usually you're going to end in muscle loss, thyroid damage, metabolic problems, regaining of weight, you know, adding 25 pounds past the GLP once it fails and just very simply to define for people. And I know you have a super educated listening audience, so I don't have to go that deep, but when a GLP fails, it's because you took the dose from too high to too higher and you eventually either run out of money or you hitch a receptor sensitivity and you desensitize the receptor. So it stops working. And then once it stops working, you've got metabolic hell to pay, right? You've got thyroid damage. Most people are not eating enough protein. They're not lifting weights. They're not doing, you know, resistance training and cardiovascular training. So then once they stop taking the GLP and their appetite comes back, they don't have a metabolism to handle their, you know, their voracious or ravenous appetite. And so they eat way beyond their means and their thyroid is slow.

Jay Campbell
Metabolism is slow. And so they, they regain 20 to 30 pounds.

This is very common, Melanie, very common for people that use GLPs. Now let's not forget that they also have muscle wasting and that's the GLP phase or the wagobi phase or the wagobi neck or the wagobi chin or the wagobi butt or all of these things that you hear about. And they're all very, very true and real side effects, but they're all easily avoided if you know what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon
First of all, thank you so much for all of that. And yeah, I opened with a really intense, you know, version like death. But the, the thing I hear the most is definitely the muscle loss.

And I remember when they first started coming out and people were talking about them all the time and they were saying, yes, they make you lose weight. And everybody, it made it seem like everybody is losing muscle. And I, during that whole conversation, I was thinking, well, you know, are the people eating protein? Like, are they supporting their muscle or are they just losing a lot of weight? And so they're losing muscle along with it.

Jay Campbell
No one loses muscle if you do this right. I mean, I am living proof of this. I've been using GLPs for four years. The GLP4, which is CAS 931, which is actually called bio-lipoetics or something like that, is coming. It's within, I don't know, we're estimating somewhere between three to six months being released. The manufacturers of the drug are hiding the CAS number so the research community can't get it and manufacture it, you know, and bootleg it like they do with everything else, which is actually a big joke, but there's no muscle loss.

And that's why I was telling you that like these drugs are so powerful in their nutrient partitioning, in their improving insulin sensitivity, enhancing again metabolic rate, that for people that are using, you know, testosterone, growth hormone, growth hormone, agonist, peptides, you know, recombinant, follow statin, you know, all these very advanced molecular drugs and biochemical wonder products are only going to like the biggest bodybuilders in the world now like that competed the Olympia, you know, are probably 260 to 275 shredded on stage. You're looking at 75 to 100 pounds heavier within the next two years and leaner because of the drugs. Yeah, that's where we're going. Incredible. Which proves there's no muscle loss, by the way. You just have to do it right. And again, the average person is not doing it right. Is it their fault or their doctor's fault? I would say it's a combination, but it's most of the it's mostly the doctor's fault because they're the ones prescribing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, okay. And I just love that you're, you know, illuminating these concerns and fears and, you know, explaining what's actually going on there.

I had made a note from your Your 30 Days to Shreds book, because there were a few different, few different things of these that you mentioned, like you were saying, and I think we might have touched on all of them right now, but you were saying, for example, that like metabolic damage is not going to happen, even though this seems like a very extreme protocol, because you're doing it right. And then you talk about you had a whole section, which I loved on the problem with studies showing muscle loss with fasting, for example, and, you know, why that's also not a concern when it's done correctly. I have a really random nuanced, or like a rabbit hole question, but you say a lot throughout your work, and we talked about it, how important being lean is for longevity and health. And you also say how important having muscle is for health and longevity. And this is a false dichotomy, because we're not going to aim for this. So nobody wants to do this. I just think these sort of questions kind of can provide interesting information. So if a person had to choose between being super lean versus being super muscled, but not lean is one of those preferences.

Jay Campbell
So that's not possible so so that's the so the confusion is what people think so if you're super lean you're super muscular You understand you can't be one or you can't be one without the other So like if you are like say single-digit body fat as a man and you're let's say 12 or 13 percent body fat as a woman That means that the rest of your body is bone and muscle so you can't be You know, but but to your question because it's a good one because again, let's think of it visually most people When they think super lean they think skinny with a six-pack and then they think muscular The big bulky bodybuilder look right where it's the same thing It's just the big bodybuilder has more muscle fiber typing, you know Our cross-sectional muscle fibers due to their training than the person that's super lean But that but the amount of muscle like per pound or you know Square inch of real estate on the bodies are the same and it's also the Versus the same I get in these conversations with people all the time and they're really confused about this I'm not saying you are of course, but most people are like you can be extremely skinny and obese And that's what people don't understand body composition has all to do with training I mean I get people and again, I don't want to make fun of them But I should because they're so stupid But like a message me and they're like, I mean honestly think about this for a second They'll be like 46 years old and they'll tell me they'll send me a picture of themselves and I look at them And I'm like, oh, that's 45% body fat and you're skinny, right?

And I'll be like they'll be like I don't understand why you know This has to be a guy for example, like I don't understand why my dick doesn't work. I have erectile dysfunction. Look at me I'm not fat and then I'll go back to him and I'll be like how much do you lift? And they'll be like I've never lifted a day in my life and I'll be like dude Your body fat is 45 to 50 percent. Have you ever had your body composition tested? No, man I just look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, yeah, I just looked at your picture You're fat and soft you have insulin resistance your dick doesn't work because you do not have Anything but this real body fat in your belly and it's causing a cytokine storm and all of your endocrine machinery doesn't work So it's like you you have to understand that like body composition is literally everything The fatter and softer and more insulin resistant you are the higher your inflammation The higher the levels of cytokines the higher the levels of you know, cellular degradation I mean all of these things are relative to how lean your body is So again, if you're under 10% as a man, then all you have is muscle and bone And if you're under say 15% for a woman, which is super elite, then all you have is muscle and bone So you don't have to be big and bulky. That's just excess muscle from your training But if you're under 10% body fat as a man You're doing something right and under 15% as a woman you're doing something right and obviously that's reflective of your training

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. That makes sense.

Yeah, no, it does completely. And I wonder, so like without example of people who like, can't quite see themselves, I wonder how much that has to do with the body point set point of the cultural lens we look through with today's culture since everybody, our collective weight is higher. Because, you know, you look back at pictures of like the 1920s people on the beach and people just looked completely different or like old game shows. I wonder with the GLPs and how everybody seems, I feel like people are losing weight now starting to systemically, I wonder if our collective, like view of weight will also lower again.

Jay Campbell
Well, so my my take on this and I don't want to offend anybody is like all this like fat acceptance movement nonsense That's happened in the last four to five years.

Whatever you want to call it, you know with the commercials and everything look No one is healthy.

Who's fat whether you accept that that they're fat and it's okay That's like a cultural moray or norm that is now like looked at in society is okay But let's not let's not get confused if you are fat.

You are not healthy you have Cellular markers that say you have insulin resistance and metabolic dysregulation.

That is a fact There is no avoiding that just because it's acceptable doesn't mean you're healthy So we don't want to confuse those two things even though society has like mismatched it to the point where it's like You know, it's okay to be fat And we should accept fat people.

I mean, yeah, of course you can accept anybody for anything But that does not make them healthy and again ultimately at the end of the day You will live the longest by being the leanest and again, i'm not telling people to be under 10 percent You know I think it's healthy for most men to be somewhere between like 15 and 18 percent And women to be somewhere between like 15 and 22 percent But once you get over 25 percent as a man or a woman You're not going to live as long as people who are leader than that.

It's very very simple And again, the statistics show this you're not going to go to any senior citizen homes and find fat people They're not alive.

They're dead So like, you know, are people living longer now heavier, you know, uh, more obese more Metabolically dysregulated insulin resistant.

Absolutely.

But are they living productively?

No They're you know, they're living in nursing homes or they're living in outpatient centers or you know They've got an oxygen tank and a wheelchair and you know that kind of stuff And so I you know, I kind of look at it as like, you know What is the difference like how do you define life you define life by the quality or the quantity?

And so medical which has failed and is a you know, an abomination is keeping people alive longer But it's not keeping people healthier.

Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, completely. And I could not agree more.

I think it's honestly a travesty that there is a movement called health at every size. I think it should be called love yourself at every size, you know, but it's not health. And also it makes people, because I don't think people feel good when they're in this, you know, obese situation of a body. It can't feel good. It's impossible.

Jay Campbell
You're a human cytokine storm when you're obese.

Melanie Avalon
And then you feel like if you don't, if you want to change that, that's not accepting yourself, which is so backward. Like, I just don't agree. I don't think it's.

Jay Campbell
No, no, I mean, I mean you and I we aren't gonna because there's a lot of great information to cover on this podcast, but like You know, I get into it with people every now and then when I lecture or when I do, you know Zoom webinars for clinics and stuff and i'll always have that one clinician Or nurse practitioner or somebody who's 300 pounds And she will like say like well, what about so and so she's healthy and it'll be like, you know Some fat olympic athlete or short sprinter, you know, who's not fat really she's like heavily muscled But she's like chunky, you know, and i'll be like dude like are you serious? But I mean look this is more reflective, you know, like that healthy at any size movement That's more reflective of the delusional nature of society Than it is about talking about health and wellness Because again people want to like reinforce, you know Again delusion.

I mean that's the best way to call it versus reality Which is no one is healthy. That is obese If you tell yourself or anyone that you're healthy as an obese person you are lying that is a lie There is nothing healthy about obesity nothing

Melanie Avalon
same page there. And I, like I said, I just feel bad because I feel like it makes people feel like they are not accepting themselves if they're not happy in that situation.

Jay Campbell
I love the love yourself. And look, I'm very outspoken about obesity. My mom died of COVID, but my mom was morbidly obese. It was a very like scarlet letter for me because of all the knowledge I have and all this stuff and I could never help her.

And I tried so hard in my 20s, tried was the operative word because I did nothing. But again, you said it. Until a person feels worthy of changing who and what they are, they're never gonna do it. And if you or I or any healthy person, you know, attempts to help a person who is not healthy get healthy and they're not actually motivated intrinsically to do it, they're not going to last. They will go, they will automatically default back to the level that you started a mat. And that's the one thing that I had to learn, you know, as whatever I am, a health professional or whatever, you know, I could not proselytize. I could not attempt to awaken anyone else. Like they have to be ready to do the work, right? It's the whole, you know, the teacher appears when the student is ready. You cannot make a person change who isn't ready to change. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Completely and first of all, I'm so sorry about your mom. I'm really sorry

Jay Campbell
Oh, it's okay. I mean, she got you know, she actually died of COVID, which was a scam. You know, they gave her remdesivir in the hospital, and she was dead like two days later. But you know, they got their $120,000.

I mean, we all know, who knows how many people, peers, relatives, friends and family that died of a COVID diagnosis. And it wasn't COVID. It just they ruled it that because the state or the federal government reinvented. Yeah, they refunded the hospital. It's insane.

Melanie Avalon
That's really horrible. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

And that's the reason actually a reason I love podcasting. You're talking about the teacher, like, you know, letting them come to you type thing. I love having podcasts because then I'm not trying to change anybody. Like I can just put the information out there and then the people who want to listen when they're ready, can listen and do the things.

Jay Campbell
That's all you can do. That's literally, it's like when you're in the gym and you see somebody who has absolutely no idea what they're doing, lifting or training or whatever. And, you know, in the goodness of your heart, you're like, ah, I should go over there. And I should teach them the correct technique or I should teach them the correct rec. But that's service to self. That's not service to others.

If they come to you and they ask you for help, now you are perfectly okay to assist. But if you walk up there attempting to help them, even if they're doing the worst form and you know what they're doing is gonna hurt them, that's service to self, that you have no right to intervene.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree so much. So to that point, people coming here to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, like I said, you have so many books in your 30 Days to Shreds protocol, it does heavily involve fasting. So listeners, we're not even gonna even remotely be able to capture all of the incredible information in Jay's books, so go get them now.

But to give people an idea, so like I said, I read the 30 Days to Shreds and there's these three different pathways that you can take, whether you're Beginner Advanced or FFO, which stands for, what does it stand for?

Jay Campbell
Fully effin' optimized.

Melanie Avalon
I have a quick question because at the beginning you figure out which one you are. What if you are different levels for the different categories?

What if for supplements you feel like you're one thing, for diet you feel like you're another, for training you feel like you're another, do you create a hybrid or do you pick one?

Jay Campbell
Yeah, it's a great question. You got to use your intuition. I mean, you usually we kind of defer to the higher end. So it's like if you're a supplement junkie, but you've never fasted, you would be probably in the middle. You know what I mean?

Versus, I mean, the only people that should be like literally like the newbie version or the virgin version or people that have done nothing who literally are clueless, and they're picking up the book, they're not hormonally optimized. They don't know their blood work. They're just absolutely utterly clueless, but they know they need to work. You know, it's hilarious. This is a perfect trend. So I just had somebody on my live stream on Sunday night on my live stream shows, and they're from the root cause Institute in cancer. And they're two of the smartest people that I've ever spoken to in my life. I would actually say the guy, I should actually, you should interview them for one of your podcasts because they cure cancer and I mean, they cure cancer. And these people are the two smartest people. They're like ascended masters in human bodies. Right. And so I saw an interview with this guy and I just literally being me, I reached out to his contact page and said, look, I don't know if you know who I am. Here's who I am. But I listened to an interview you did. And I would love to interview you because we, we, we speak the same language and the same lingo. And I think it would be amazing. And the guy wrote me back in 10 minutes. He's like, bro, I've been following you. I've been, I've been listening to the Jake Hamill podcast for six years. It was crazy. So I was like, oh my God, this is insane. So I mean, again, like minds follow like minds vibe, retract your tribe. So I had them on and they had the five stages of awakening. Now I'm going to give it to you right now because it's perfect for this podcast, but stage one is indoctrination, which means that most people never get by indoctrination, right? Because they believe in big pharma, big food, church, big Agra, you know, the external savior. And then number two is physical aspects of health detoxing, right? So they, that's the biggest step, right? Leaving the indoctrination, moving to the second step, which is like, Oh shit, I got to take care of my physical body. And so how do I detox my physical body? And you know, my wife, you know, Monica has this great statement that she said 10 years ago. And she was like, most people don't value their health until it's gone. And I know you know that because I'm sure you've had a lot of other brilliant minds on this podcast and talked about it, but think about how crazy that is that we live in a world right now where the average person, this is by the way, the average person doesn't even care about their physical body. They just exist in it. They eat, they don't exercise. They eat like shit. They drink copious amounts of alcohol, smoke, weed, smoke, vape, smoke, cigarettes, do horrible things to their body, focus on their business or focus on being a dad or whatever.

Jay Campbell
But then eventually their body just gives out. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you can just get to that awareness, again, past the indoctrination stage where it's like, Oh, my physical health matters. Now you can take ownership.

Now you can actually take, you know, meaningful initiative and with intention and obviously with massive action, and you could do anything you want. You can absolutely go from 350 pounds to 180 pounds. Right. So it's the mindset of like being aware that the physical body matters and how do we detoxify and we detoxify it by listening to podcasts like this, you know, buying books about fasting, you know, understanding how to do all these things. But I just, it's crazy when you really boil it down, how many people aren't living their life in alignment with the idea that the body does matter.

Melanie Avalon
I actually have a question about that, that ties in perfectly, which is because I completely understand what you're saying and I actually think about that a lot when I see stuff on social media and a lot of influencers who are the influencers who what they do is like taste all the like all the crumble cookies or like, you know, all the all the food and which is and this is going to relate to my question because there is an aspect of you wanting to enjoy life and everything like that. And at the same time, I'm like, I feel like they just don't, they just like people who are doing this like 24 seven, I'm like, do I just wish it's like they don't even see what this is doing to their health in the future.

My question is you have two pillars of diet. And one is, you know, a largely unprocessed foods diet. And then the second one is actually not letting your diet become neurotic and affect your, you know, your social life and your mental health and wellness. And I'm paraphrasing those two pillars. But that's like the vibe I got. So how do how do people how do we handle that? How do we handle like, enjoying life, having the food, doing, you know, eating the things, and also respecting our body being healthy? Like, how do we do that's a really hard thing for a lot of people.

Jay Campbell
It's an awesome question. And again, the answer is different 10 years ago than it is now. I mean, obviously 30 days to shreds. And by the way, you're the first person for me to say this to other than like my insider group, the fruit fasting has made me reexamine. My awareness towards dieting because when again, I don't want to rabbit hole because I want to answer your question, but we now know that fruit fasting, if you do it correctly, increases metabolic rate by 20%. So if you can increase your metabolic rate by just eating fruit, you will dramatically increase your body's ability to burn fat.

Okay. Now we can go deeper on that in a second, but like I'm telling you that because my answer to your question used to be that it's simple. I developed a diet one day you eat. If you're doing everything right, you're hormonally optimized. You're using, you know, growth hormone, agonist, peptides, or even growth hormone itself as a microdose. You're using mitochondrial optimizing things. You can dramatically increase your metabolic rate and you can enjoy food every other day, right? And on the days that you enjoy food, you're also trading with weights or resistance so you can, you know, you increase your body's insulin sensitivity, which obviously helps you digest, you know, carbohydrates, protein, and fat more easily because your, your body is like an insulin sump pump because you're building muscle. But now because we understand fruit fasting and again, this fruit fasting, when I say we understand this, this is four months old. So this is like absolutely tip of the spear. You've got Nick Norvitz now who's out there, you know, the Harvard educated nutritionist. There's now a friend of mine five months ago. He was attacking this and now he's writing about like, oh my god, like we don't even understand nutrition. We don't even understand metabolic capacities. We don't understand molecular dynamics. There's, there's things that we're learning that we have to overturn, you know, from the walls of thermodynamics because we never understood about phosphofructokinase, which is this rate-linomating enzyme that handles fructose consumption and fructose digestion. And now we have FGF21, which is this endocrine hormone that is massively upregulated in the presence of lots of fructose from fruit and it increases metabolic rate by 20%. Now, I'm not joking when I say this, there's studies and research out there on this. Imagine increasing your metabolic rate by 20% in addition to being hormonally optimized, in addition to be using human growth hormone or a growth hormone agonist peptide, like Tessamorel and Ipomerone or CJC, in addition to using mitochondrial optimizing peptides like BOTC, SS31, injectable 5-amino, NAD+, and then doing that understanding that you're, you know, your fruit fast is 20%. I mean, Melanie, you're increasing your metabolic rate by 35%.

Melanie Avalon
Is this only eating fruit? Only eating fruit.

Jay Campbell
Yes, this is I'll get to it. I'll break it down and show you like what I've done and what I'm doing But I'm going to Aruba next Thursday with my wife And I have been playing around with the fruit fast Again, the the internet knows it is a sugar fast, but that's a misnomer And we shouldn't say that because to do this right you're eating fruit only you're not You know, you can get away with eating gummy bears and licorice, you know non-fat just pure sugar Of candy, but you shouldn't because it's bad for your teeth and it's just you know, it's bad I mean again metabolically your body can handle it because it's just pure glucose or sucrose But you don't want it you want to eat fructose But the bottom line is i'm going to Aruba next Thursday with my wife And I will be the leanest most shredded Most muscular that i've ever been in my life at 54 from literally doing 10 days of fruit fasting I'll be way more Leaninger and way more muscular and way more energized than I ever would be from doing 30 days to shreds No, don't get me wrong.

You can do a 30 days to shred protocol like in my book Which is again, you know for the lay community that doesn't know what it means It's like every other day fasting on the day that you and I mean no food fasting It's so funny. You can't say fasting anymore. You got to say fruit fasting or no fasting for people to really understand

Melanie Avalon
It's like all different types.

Jay Campbell
Yeah, but so but the reality is it's like you can follow my 30 days of shreds protocol and you can get absolutely shredded But the difference between that protocol and fruit fasting is you will be way less energized because again, you're not eating You know as you know in the book There's there's periods of 48 to 60 hours of fasting and the fatter you are the more you should be doing those because you'll lose fat faster per unit of time, but you can now do this and not be depleted energetically because you're not eating any food and just eat fruit and Enhance metabolic rate dramatically when you're not enhancing metabolic rate when you're just not eating Look, there's some metabolic rate increase because obviously if you get into trace ketosis, you know in a 48 to 60 hour fast window There is some increased, you know FGF 21, which again is the endocrine hormone that's responsible for enhancing metabolic rate But it's minimal compared to fruit fasting So it's like, you know I'm a scientist even though I'm not a technical scientist But I'm capable of changing my opinion and adopting, you know information when we get more science to prove that you know We should change. There's a lot of people that won't change But I'm you know here to say that hey, you know, if what I know now If I was gonna you know write a Part 2 or a part 3 because it's technically part 3 30 days of shreds because the first book was the metabolic blow towards diet It was really the the origin or the genesis of that and then this was part 2 part 3 would would say hey, I've got a new improved way to do this and the new improved way to do this is eating fruit every other day and so you don't lose energy you don't have a Decline in performance because that's the thing, you know anyone who follows 30 days to shreds protocol can get absolutely shredded But you're gonna have energy deficits on the days that you're fasting for 48 to 60 hours Or you know the two and a half day window the weekend window you stop eating Friday night You eat again on you know 6 a.m. On Monday morning. You're gonna be tired on Sunday afternoon You know You're doing your two cardio sessions on that on that 48 hour to 60 hour window on Sunday or whatever if you're doing it from Friday night to Sunday morning and you're gonna be tired It's gonna be hard to do that Versus if you're just eating fruit you have all the energy in the world and you're not having any kind of muscle degradation or catabolism because the FGF 21 is a Anabolic endocrine hormone that's muscle sparing. So increasing metabolic rate by 20% and sparing Muscle tissue so a lot of people come at me. I'm getting deeper into the fruit fast now So a lot of people will come at me and they'll say oh, bro That's only for enhanced bros like you, you know, Mark Bell is like one of the biggest proponents of this right now He's like all over the internet talking about this and he's a good friend of mine and he really exposed me to this He's not the guy that created this the guy that created.

Jay Campbell
This is a guy by the name of Joe Binley and he goes by Joe English on Instagram because he's in England. He's from England He's got the massive UK twang, but but the reality is that this diet works for anyone obese insulin resistant lean If in fact, I will say this and I say this to everyone now and like I said when this podcast ends I'm writing an email tonight.

That's gonna detail You know this like Quantified after using it for four months now of like how to do this, right? But any person can do this diet and in one month Probably lose 20 to 25 percent body fat and not have any energy deficit and feel fine and continue to eat on days That you would have normally been fasted on my 30 days to shred protocol. It's crazy It is it is without a doubt 100% unequivocally scientifically the strongest best fat loss diet known to man It's better than keto. It's better than carnivore and remember when I say that I'm the guy that helped Lyle McDonald write the first book on ketogenic dieting I was in a ketogenic diet for three years and I was in a cyclical ketogenic diet So I have more experience than any of the keto and carnivore people I've forgotten more about this shit than those people know and the problem with keto and carnivore in comparison to this diet is After a while and remember I told you this on the last podcast you in you retard insulin metabolism So people that are on long-term carnivore diets have high a 1c values Because their insulin production is ineffective and inefficient.

In fact, I could argue it actually stops working And so a lot of these people that have been on long-term carnivore They go get their a 1c and they've got like a 5.7 or 5.8 a 1c, which is they're like type 2 diabetic Right. So it's like you have to be very cautious. You know, you use the word nuance. I love that word But if you do the fruit fast correctly And there's only a couple exceptions for people, by the way, just so I can say it. And I want to say that the exceptions for fruit fasting people are people that have sevarious NGFL, right? They have the, what do you call it, fatty liver disease. And those people are the only ones that should be extra cautious with doing the fruit fast.

And I mean that by like getting your labs before you start, you know, not eating like dates or raisins or like very, you know, not starchy, but heavy fructose. You know, you want to eat a lot of citrus fruits like watermelon and peaches and pineapple and apples and applesauce and plums and berries and things like that. But I'm telling you, it works better than anything. I know hundreds, if not thousands of people right now, because they're all messaging me because I'm like one of the biggest people that are out there talking about this now who have started this diet and said, holy shit, I thought you were crazy. Holy shit. I've never, I mean, I'm insulin resistant. People are rebooting their thyroid production and rebooting their insulin sensitivity and their insulin production. Just call it their fasting glucose is going down because the more you increase insulin sensitivity by eating all these fructose carbs, the faster your metabolism comes.

Jay Campbell
So literally no exaggeration. I'll just tell you really quick for the listening audience and then you can go whatever rabbit hole you want down on this. But basically this is a diet where you basically, let's say you start on Monday, you eat nothing but fruit all day Monday. You eat no protein, no fat. It's just fruit.

You drink. I mean, literally as I'm, because I'm on this hardcore right now, I've been drinking matz apple, apple cherry juice the whole time I've been talking to you. So fruit juice, apples, pears, pineapple. I love crushed pineapple. I love cubed pineapple, bananas. I mean, if you really want to eat raisins, you know, you can, but I mean, I kind of tell heavier set people to stay away from that. You do the same thing on Tuesday. Depending on your training, you know, I recommend you lift weights like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and I'll explain the Friday, Saturday lifting in a second. But like today was my Wednesday lifting. I lifted with my wife at about 11, 10 45. I was done about 12. I came home and I had grass fed beef and sweet potatoes. So I ate my first like carb non fruit and obviously protein in two days.

And now since then I've been just working and now I'm talking to you on a podcast and I've been drinking this whole entire bottle of matz apple cherry juice. And then tonight I will eat another protein and dry carb like rice. It'll probably be like shrimp or white fish and rice. And then I'll go to bed and then tomorrow morning I'll jump right back into the fruit fast. I'll just eat nothing but fruit on Thursday and I'll eat nothing but fruit on Friday. I'll train again on Friday. I might not train on Friday. I might just do cardio, but remember when you're eating fruit, you're getting somewhere between, you know, depending on the size of the person somewhere between 350 and 650 grams of carbs a day and pure fructose, which again, when you hear that you instantly as a nutritional person or someone who thinks that like all that sugar from fructose and carbs is bad for you. It's going to make you fat. It's the opposite. So your body is massively upregulating through the enzyme phosphofructokinase. It's upregulating this endocrine hormone called FGF 21, which is fiberglass growth factor at 21, which massively increases metabolic rate, which shreds you, makes you leaner, gives you more energy.

And everyone sees this after the first two days. So anyway, to continue on Friday, more fruit, go to bed. If you have to have like dry starch or something like that, because you're craving dry starch, you can have white rice and salt. You can eat like sourdough bread. I mean, there's, you know, Joe Binley has a book. I'll send you the book, you know, after this call and you can read the book, but you know, I have my own protocol so I can send you that too.

Jay Campbell
I've actually written about this on IG and X. And so a lot of people have followed the threads and stuff like that. But basically on Saturday, if you want to have like a depletion workout, like late Saturday morning, you know, 15 to 20 reps, a couple sets, you know, get your body massively glycogen depleted, and then all day Saturday, just eat dry carbs and protein. And then on Sunday, it's kind of like you could probably eat whatever you want because you've gotten so ripped from eating all that fruit during the week.

And so then you basically assess your body composition. If you're a heavy person, you're probably gonna have to do this for a month, maybe six weeks. If you're somebody like me or you and you wanna just get into absolute the best peak condition you could be so you look great in a bikini for an exotic vacation or maybe you're competing or doing a photo shoot, you might need one more week. I'm going to Aruba next Thursday and so I'm gonna do it Monday through Thursday again. And then we fly to Aruba and then my wife and I are gonna probably hopefully get some pictures in Aruba, maybe on the beach, super lean and shredded. And then I'll just go back into my normal lifestyle of like normal, whether I do 30 days of shreds. I mean, normally when I eat normally, I probably eat omnivore on my training days and then on my non-training days, I fast, like no food fast for maybe 16 to 18 hours. And then I eat omnivore couple meals. So that's like my normal lifestyle eating. But again, when I wanna fruit fast now, I can get absolutely shredded. And when I say shredded, I mean, I'm talking like 5% body fat. I can go from 10 to five in 10 days. And yes, I can do that in 30 days to shreds by no food fasting, but I'm much more depleted. It's much harder. Cardio is much harder. I have less energy. Now the people listening to this are gonna be like, oh, Jay's crazy. I mean, he might have fat loss, but what about his biomarkers? Is he increasing the load on his liver because of, he's got all this fructose coming into the liver and the liver is rate limited enzymatically and breaking down glucose and storing glucose in the liver. And they're all good questions and people from a universal dogmatic understanding of nutrition have a right to ask those questions. But what they don't understand, and this is what Nick Norvitz is talking about and I'm talking about now is that this is flipping the biochemical equation in the presence of nothing but fruit. Now this is the most important thing, Melanie. Fruit without protein and fat. The body goes into hypermetabolic mode and increases again through the conversion of phosphofructokinase, this again, super powerful endocrine hormone called FGF21, which is fiberglass growth factor 21. And that massively increases metabolic rate and glycation and burns through all the fructose and the glucose from whatever you're eating. And in the process of burning it out, you feel better, you're more energized, you're shredding body fat, because again, you have an increase in metabolic rate.

Jay Campbell
And by the way, this is just from the fruit. If you're doing all the other things, right? Metabolic optimizing peptides like MotC or SS31 or 5-Amino or SS or NAD+, or taking sloop, SLU, PP-332 or any of those things, Metasred, the stuff that we sell at BioLongevity Labs, you're increasing your metabolic rate by another 10 to 12 to 15%. So again, what I told you in the beginning of this call that people can now in 10 to 14 days lose five to 7% body fat, if you're a lean person naturally or you keep yourself in decent condition, in that short amount of period when you're already that lean, that's unheard of. But this is all possible now.

So we're now in a totally different time and age when people who understand these things can completely and dramatically alter their body composition in the shortest amount of time possible. And again, totally healthy, because what I haven't told you is that Mark Bell, and by the way, I'm getting all my labs done at the end of August. When we get back from Aruba, it'll be three and a half months. Actually, it'll be almost four months that I've been playing around with this. And so I'm gonna get all my labs and my biomarkers done. But I've looked at tons of people who've been on this diet longer than me, and all of their biomarkers have improved. In fact, Mark Bell's fasting glucose is 2.7, which is insane. Like it doesn't even pencil. It makes no sense. They're like, how can someone be eating 650 to 750 grams of sugar through fructose of fruit every day and have a glucose level below 2.9? It's insane. It doesn't make any sense metabolically, but that's because we've never understood what this FGF21 endocrine hormone does in the absence of protein and fat. So we were always looking at fructose. but we weren't looking at it in isolation. We were looking at it with the combination of fat and protein being consumed around it. It's the protein and fat that inhibits the FGF21 production. So again, this is all new science. No one knew about this. It's turning everything upside down. There are thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands of people now around the world using the fruit fast and they're losing body fat at rates never before seen. And again, in the presence of like good health factors and longevity factors, it's not doing anything negative. Now that doesn't mean that we won't see things, six months, eight months, nine months from now that tells us, oh, you know what? We can do this, but we also have to take this supplement, right? Because like Joe Binley will say, the guy that wrote the book on this, he'll say, well, you need Tudka. You need supplements to support the liver. You also need like choline or choline by tartrate for also to help with like bio production and bioflow and stuff like that. So there's probably things that we'll do to tweak this diet as we learn more and more about it. But for now, in the short term, most people are seeing incredible body composition changes and also improved biomarkers, which when you're really measuring fat loss and body composition change, that's all that really matters.

Melanie Avalon
So I was doing like the keto diet, the low carb, and I got really alert by the idea of fruit and I was really scared to start eating carbs again because I had entered what I think happens to a lot of people is they get stuck in this low carb world and they think if they have carbs, they're going to gain weight and

Jay Campbell
Well, you will remember, if you've done it a long time, it does retard insulin metabolism. So in the short term, you will hold water and you will gain weight, a hundred percent.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So I realized though, I was like, you know what, I think the problem is the carbs and the fat together. So I was like, what if I'm having the high protein still, but I switch my like fuel source from primarily fats, primarily carbs and make that primarily fructose because I just went down the rabbit hole of, I thought there was a lot of benefits to fructose. So I basically switched to like a high protein, high fruit diet with fasting. So like daily fasting and then eating high protein and high fruit at night.

And that's why I have a question about the FGF 21. Doing that, my blood sugar lowered. I lost weight. My energy came back. I was like, oh, I was like, hold on.

Jay Campbell
about the fruit. So the only problem with what you did, and by the way, what you did works in 99% of people. Everyone who does this experiences what you experience. They experience enhanced energy.

They experience improved insulin sensitivity and production. So again, insulin is right. Remember the key and critical metabolic hormone. I mean, we want to control insulin to live longer, but at the same time, we want to also have ability to modify our insulin for energy production. And so when you're eating fruit all the time, you have insane energy, you know, and that's why like when you're doing this and you're working out again, the fruit fast and in your call it your fruit fast windows, you never are tired. Like people stop drinking coffee, Melanie, they stop taking caffeine. They stop taking anything that enhances mental focus or, you know, improves alertness because you don't need it. So again, this is why I like this more so now than my 30 days to shred, which again, I have to say is my no food fasting thing.

Because again, when you're not eating, sure, there's benefits. You're removing senescent cells, you're increasing hermet or hormesis. You know, there's a lot of other benefits to doing that. But as you know, as the time goes through the day and you're at 19 or 20 or 21 hours of no food, you become less energetic. Like there's no avoiding that. Yeah, you could take stems and shit like that, but that's no good because obviously you're now you're screwing with your adrenals and as I always say, what goes up must come down. But when you're just taking insulin, I mean, improving your insulin production through drinking fruit and consuming fruit, again, most importantly, in the absence of protein and fat, you're not getting fatter. You're improving metabolic rate, again, through the increase of phosphofructokinase and FGF 21.

And there's a there's an anabolic effect. It again is protein sparing when you have all that insulin from the fruit. So you can't. And this is where all the bros get mad. They're like, oh, it's only for people that are enhanced. No, it will do the same thing for a non-enhanced person as an enhanced person will spare muscle tissue. So you will not lose fat. I mean, excuse me, you will not lose muscle tissue. So the only thing to you, what you were saying is, and again, I think people are metabolically different, you know, based on genetics and stuff like that. But the protein excess protein with the rice or with the fruit will kick down or out of elevated FGF 21. You'll still get the benefit of the higher insulin, but you won't have the fat loss that you would have in the absence of protein.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah, my question was, was it, you know, equally the fat and protein affecting the FGF21, you know, more the fat? It's literally, it's literally the fructose.

But the protein does affect it, not just the fat.

Jay Campbell
The protein, so it's the, so Nick Norwitz just did an awesome article about this the other day, and Nick is an absolute dorky guy, genius, but just dorky guy. And he is a pro keto bro before all of this. And so it's blown his mind apart because he was like, this is not possible. I know everything there is to know about nutrition.

So now he's deep down this rabbit hole, but it's the absence of protein that's really stoking the FGF21 fires. So you could probably have, and this is important. And again, this is in the book. And you know, when I send you my protocol, you'll understand it, but you can have MCT oil, you can have palmitic acid. You can have stearic acid and those fats elevate FGF21. So like you can get like palm oil or kernel oil, but again, MCT oil, you know, is usually the best, but so you could take a lot of MCT oil and fruit and you would be fine and you'll keep blasting FGF21. The type of protein that you take is the type is what is going to really fuck up FGF21 production and it's isoleucine. So it's basically chicken whey protein, turkey, anything with a lot of isoleucine is going to absolutely destroy FGF21 production. So if you're going to eat protein when you're doing this and you want to keep FGF21 pretty high, it's going to be white fish, shrimp, scallops, and then the only protein powder that you could take would be collagen. And Nutricost has a really good blend of chocolate, peanut butter, chocolate, and salted caramel that you can get on Amazon and you can drink that post-workout with MCT oil, even on your fruit fasting days and get away with it and not knock yourself out of high levels of FGF21.

Melanie Avalon
The last time that I had heart alcohol, I might have had it like once or twice since then, but in college. And it was because I was always doing like crazy diet experimentation. So I decided to do a fruit fast actually. And I was going to do it for three days, but I decided to just eat apples. So I ate just apples for three days. I felt so amazing, like literally so amazing.

I kept going. I did it for 11 days. And then I went to film school prom, a party, and I had some, oh, and I cut out caffeine and everything. Like I felt so high. And then I had, I had just the normal amount of alcohol I would normally drink. And it literally, it just killed me. Like I was like, I felt like I was dying.

Jay Campbell
So you know why that was so so so that's a great transition So so this actually proves how bad if you are how bad alcohol is actually for the human body So like when your body is got massive amounts of FGF 21 Which clearly you did because you're eating apples for three days all of a sudden introducing alcohol, which again metabolically And I don't want to like kind of dork But like you when alcohol comes into the body it is basically converted in this like chain of fatty acids Dehydrogenase ultimately it gets to what is called triglycerol and triglycerol is then converted to triglyceride And so when you drink alcohol in excess You're gonna be soft in places that your body is prone to store fat, right? So for men, it's the belly That's why guys have beer bellies for women.

It's like the hips the glute and hamstring tie in and again This is all regional body fat storage relative to genetics and blood flow And so it's you feel like shit when you have all that FGF 21 and all that insulin to throw in a solvent Into your body it would just literally like it would be like throwing water into your gas tank when your gas when you were like a Ferrari flowing

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So to that point, actually, because I'll let you know my thoughts on alcohol and everything. So I feel like if we look at, I think, well, first of all, I think there's a bit of a problem with the literature on alcohol in general, because it often lumps together alcohol into one category, like alcohol, or we'll call it like all wine, all beer. There's not any nuance of, is this dry farm, low alcohol, pesticide-free organic wine compared to conventional high alcohol, full of colorizers and additives and pesticides and all the things. So I think there's a distinction that could make a difference.

Because I know if I drink certain drinks, I just feel horrible. But if I drink, I'm neurotic with what I drink as far as the wine. I feel like it's additive to my life. And then if we look at the longest lived populations, with the exception of Loma Linda, they all have some amount of alcohol in their diet. And so you could ask the question, well, maybe without that, they would live even longer. Or maybe it's kind of like the, maybe the benefits outweigh any potential negatives of actual alcohol content from the polyphenols, the rest of the drink, the social setting. It's a very, again, nuanced topic.

Jay Campbell
So here's the answer. Here's the answer.

So I wrote about this in my TOT Bible. The human body can handle four ounces of unfermented alcohol per 24 hours. So that means that if you drink four ounces of, you know, call it, you know, wine, even four ounces of like distilled vodka or distilled liquor, you're probably not going to have any kind of like, what do you call it, delay from a standpoint of, you know, your central nervous system is not going to be depressed. But how many people can actually go four ounces and not go beyond that? Very few, if not any, right? Because again, it's like, you know, does all sorts of things to lower inhibition, to do all these things that people enjoy, right? So that's why they keep drinking it. So you can, you know, and to what you were saying about the different forms, I mean, again, it just comes down to the ounces. Because again, at the end of the day, molecular alcohol is alcohol when it's converted. So like, if you want to live the longest and have the least amount of brain decay, you know, degenerate neurodegeneration, depending on what pathways, you should avoid alcohol like the plague because it is zero value. I mean, it really is zero value. But if you want to be that person that says, oh, no, I enjoy a glass of wine with my friends and it's like great for me in social settings, I mean, just keep it below four ounces. You know what I mean? Because that's like what the body can actually process and handle. But I would still say that if you drink four ounces of wine every single day, by the time you're in your 40s, you're fucked.

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, I don't think people because I don't think I agree and I don't think people People don't realize that like so like if you look at like a bottle of wine You could have like a 11 ounce abv wine and you can easily have like a 15 ounce a 15, you know 15 percent Sorry outs 11 percent abv wine and there's also a 15 percent abv wine and people just consider those the same And then a glass of wine is glass of wine. No Because if you have a 15 percent compared to 11 percent like that's a big difference Like

Jay Campbell
Than the amount the best way i'll say it is now and this is going to probably be offensive to some people but if you are Heavily faxed and boosted And you're drinking alcohol on the weekends getting blown up and I mean like you're getting in sloshed You are dramatically shortening your lifespan Because your autoimmunity is already let's just say detuned for lack of a better word and by adding in You're pouring kerosene on the fire. You know what i'm saying? Like that's the best way to say it. So like You know people in their late teens and early 20s and even late 20s and maybe early 30s They're going out every weekend getting wasted You know, can you clean up your act?

Yes But if you're literally in your 40s and you're still doing that and you're heavily vaxen boosted, you're not going to live much longer I mean, I mean melanie I could tell you because I see people's labs We are we have a national crisis. It's not a national crisis. It's a global crisis I mean I am seeing people's inflammatory markers when they send me their labs and these are normally I should say normal otherwise healthy people like, you know, they're not insulin. They don't look fat They're not fat and they're not, you know insulin resistant But their inflammatory markers are literally indicative of a person who has one foot in the grave I mean it is so bad that it blows my head off Like i'm gonna just this is a person who sent me their labs three days ago. It's a woman. She's a nurse So again, the medical system people are the worst because they were forced So you're ready for this? So this is from june 14th 2025 and again, this is a normal if you saw this woman you would be like she's healthy. She takes care of herself She's exercising She got two shots and two boosters again. She's a nurse forced her high sensitivity crp, which is c-reactive protein is 30 0.51 on a range of zero to three 30 her c-reactive protein on a range of zero to three is 28 Her esr her fibrin activity her neutrophil lymphocyte and her platelet lymphocytes are all 40 points to 60 points over the high end of the risk range And this is a normal person who's 42 years old. So what i'm saying is and i'm not trying to scare people But if you're out there and you're vaxxed again and boosted and let's just say two and two And you're sloshing yourself on the weekends. You're not going to live much longer Because your autoimmunity is turned off and again, i'm really sorry if you were forced to do this There are ways to fix yourself. There are people that can do plasmapheresis. You can fly to costa rica Panama mexico there's other places and you can have your blood exchanged, but it costs 75 to a hundred thousand dollars But i'm telling you dude I see this every day if not every other day and i am literally flabbergasted because it drives me I mean it saddens me Like I get sad just telling you right now because I think about these people, you know They were forced to do this, but I mean it's not good, dude

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, I think the binge drinking type situation like going out drinking all like that is not good either like not never good. Wow, so many things.

Okay, one quick question on the the alcohol and the mental or like the brain. It's interesting as well. I've had on the show, the researchers behind the the mind diet, which they did like the longest or the the I guess they've done the most research on diet to prevent cognitive decline. And their protocol literally like you get points for having wine in the diet, which

Jay Campbell
It's like look genetics are everything and and you know going back to the five stages of awakening I mean again This is very important, you know And obviously there's a lot of smart people to listen to your podcast and a lot of people that are very smart in my world too, but Number four in the stages of awakening is the emotional impact of stress on our physiology Do you realize and I mean this for everyone listening? I don't care.

This is not woo We are nothing more than energy we are vibrating atoms and oscillating waves of energy in these physical bodies and These physical bodies get disease or cancer heart disease, whatever you want to call all the aging diseases due to resistance in the energy field So when those researchers come on your show and they talk about people live the longest from drinking wine There's also a reason that they live long and it has nothing to do with physical It's literally because they are meaning the people that live the longest who are drinking the wine are happy whole and complete And what I mean by that is they do not have resistance in their energy field when they drink wine they do it in the spirit of Abundance prosperity generosity gratitude. They're with friends their family. I mean again They're in a place of happiness of productivity of like feeling You know super productive and super You know abundant they're not coming from a place of lack And so that's what we have to understand is that like literally the emotional the psycho emotional Component of our being is what affects us the most and whether or not we get disease or live longest It's more. It's more than anything. I mean again, you know, here's I'm the guy here talking about fruit fasting and peptides and all this stuff And you're all physical implements but at the end of the day If you feel that you are worthy and that you love and trust yourself You can absolutely live into your 120s, you know 115 113 whatever and drink Four to six to eight to ten ounces of wine every day So it's it really you know, we really have to understand that the mental place the state of being this You know of our emotionality. Are we in resistance or are we in flow is ultimately going to determine how long we live?

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I think it's overwhelmingly powerful. And I mean, we see it just scientifically with the placebo effect with pills, you know? So yeah, incredible.

Jay Campbell
Fat people, you know, I'll just say this, fat people don't love and trust themselves. Because if you were not fat, now that doesn't mean that skinny people or healthy, I mean lean people love and trust themselves either. I'm not saying it's all that way, but like to be that level of poor physical health means that you have a psycho-emotional block of resistance somewhere from trauma as a child, a past life, you know, some sort of abusive setting. You were emotionally or physically or verbally abused or something, and you shut down and you stopped caring about what is very important, which again is the stage two, your physical vessel, right? Like you need a healthy physical vessel to enjoy your life because when you're fat, you're in pain. Your default state is suffering. So it's like when you see someone like that, you automatically know that they don't feel truly worthy of being any other way. And so that's their default state, which is suffering and it's horrible, right? Like again, you and I don't understand that, but like it sucks. And so it's like, they're not gonna change until they get to a place. And again, they have to be ready to do this where they feel worthy of changing. It's really that simple.

And that's kind of the way it is in life. And I'm not saying that healthy, lean people don't hate themselves too, because there's plenty of people like that. There's plenty of people in the bodybuilding world that have muscle dysmorphia and body dysmorphia. You know what I mean? But it's like, you cannot change until you feel worthy of change. I cannot tell anybody, you cannot tell anybody anything about all these things that we're talking about and will make sense to them until it makes sense to them. You know, it's the whole like, until a person is sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, they're not gonna change.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's a reason actually, that, because I think people can see these, like, protocols, and they can seem intense, and like, it's a lot of rules, and it's stressful, and it's going to require a lot of change to do it.

And at the same time, I think for a lot of people, having these these rules and boundaries that you just commit to, then that actually frees up a lot of willpower and can change your relationship to the entire diet, fitness experience, because now you just follow the rules. And then the physiological changes happen, you experience a new thing, it kind of can like be a backwards way in for people to, I think, have a new relationship to weight loss, health, training their bodies by having like the plan and the rules to follow.

Jay Campbell
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I agree. Yep. I mean, I don't agree. I know you're right. It's a fact.

Melanie Avalon
So we'll ask a quick question about the fruit fasting. If a person is doing this and not taking the peptides that they needed to take, will they lose muscle?

Jay Campbell
No, no. So that's the craziest part about this. And I've experimented again, not obviously myself, because I am enhanced, but I've had hundreds of people message me on Instagram and TikTok. I mean, not TikTok, Twitter X. It's hard to keep up with the social media these days, who have read my threads and sent me private messages and said, you know, I really doubted this, but I was like, everything else doesn't work for me. Look, I've had so many keto and carnivore people who have switched over to this diet and said, I never thought anything was going to get my scale moving again. I never thought I was going to feel this energized. I cannot believe that I actually stopped eating carnivore and keto.

And again, this is simple. You've already talked about this. You experienced it yourself. When you pigeonhole yourself in a carnivore keto diet for so long, your body's insulin metabolism retards, it slows down, it becomes inefficient. Your A1C level, which is your blood glucose measurement level spikes, it goes higher. You're literally a borderline type two diabetic. And as you said, when you start reintroducing carbs into your life or your diet, you feel like shit. You start holding water, you gain weight, because again, your insulin metabolism is not functioning efficiently. And I would even argue correctly or properly at all. And so there's going to be a delay in your body getting back. And so that's why the fruit fast works so well, because if you do seven to 10 days of it, it'll bring your insulin metabolism back and it'll bring it back way faster than any other way. Because I think a lot of people, when I was one of these people, when I came off the cyclical ketogenic diet of doing it for three years straight, my insulin metabolism was retarded for six months. I mean, I remember I was having narcolepsy. I would eat like a carb meal at one o'clock and I would be wanting to snore at two o'clock. It was horrible. I remember it took me six months. And again, I knew nothing like I know now that was back in my twenties. But now knowing when I know, like I could tell anyone who's a carnivore keto person who's been hardcore and deep into those diets to just do the fruit fast for seven to 10 days and your energy will literally come back. Your insulin will turn back on. Your metabolism will come back on and you will start the plateau that you're on right now because your blood glucose is high and your insulin is not functioning. Your plateau will, you'll blow through your plateau right away. And that's what I'm seeing. So there's, again, there's, there's no reason for anybody who's not on testosterone or not on peptides to not do the fruit fast because again, the FGF21 is not only metabolic enhancing, but it's anabolic and protein sparing.

Melanie Avalon
Another question, and it's related to that because one of my favorite parts of the shreds book was at the end. And it was a very motivating and helpful piece of the book.

And it was talking about how, like, basically, there's always something you can do if you're stuck in a plateau and you go through, like, exercise stuff, diet stuff. So I'm guessing now you would definitely add to that the fruit fast. But the question I have is, what are things, just in general, if people feel like they're stuck in a plateau, so clearly there's this fruit fast option. But in general, what are things people can and can't change to try to break through a plateau?

Jay Campbell
So I just, it's a great question. I literally just answered this on X to somebody like two days ago. So, I mean, it really depends on whether or not a person is using a GLP one peptide or has never used one. So I will just say as like a, a very garden variety template cookie cutter answer, if you've never used a GLP, the greatest plateau breaker ever is red true tide, which is a GLP three peptide and very, very simply, as I said earlier in the show, but you know, it stands good to refresh, you start low and you go slow.

If you're a woman, you use what my wife uses. My wife is obviously a very, very lean, very ripped 53 year old woman, and she uses 0.10 milligrams twice a week, which is literally one thirtieth of a weekly dose that they give in the pharma world. And it still works amazingly well. It eliminates food noise, increases metabolic rate slows, by the way, it's very minimal, but it does enhance or slow gastric motility, which means obviously it suppresses appetite and slows digestion a little bit, but it's very minimal compared to like the GLP ones and the GLP twos, which are again, the first appetite in the manjaros. I mean, uh, uh, we go ease, which are known to cause the side effects and to cause, you know, the issues that people have with digestion, because again, they're not, they're not eating right. They're not doing all the things that we talked about earlier on this podcast, but rather true tide at a micro dose twice a week for three weeks, a month is going to dramatically increase metabolic rate. It's going to dramatically increase nutrient partitioning. It's going to improve insulin sensitivity. It's anabolic as long as again, you're eating enough protein and training. So that would be number one. I think number two, you know, if you've been fasting without food and you're in a massive, you know, you've been saying in a very high caloric deficit of say three or four weeks, and again, you know, let's just use four weeks as kind of the maximum of 30 days to shred protocol. The best thing to do is, is to eat a lot of food. I mean, Mark Bell talks about this all the time.

If you've been, and this applies to keto carnivore 30 days without food fasting, you know, doing the 30 days protocol, when you increase food consumption, and again, primarily knowing what we now know about carbs and fructose, if you just ramjacked five or 600 grams of carbs for two or three days in a row, your body's metabolic rate will go up because something has to burn the carbs. And again, we now know there's, you know, biochemical releases of, you know, through phosphococcal kinase and FGF 21. If you just eat, you know, you talked about the rice diet. If you just eat dry rice, four to 600 grams of dry rice a day for two or three days in a row, and maybe just eat a very super low protein, you know, keep that minimal to none, maybe, maybe some MCT oil or, you know, some, uh, Italian dressing or, you know, olive oil or something like that, even MCT oil, same thing, you know, your, your body's insulin production and insulin or nutrient partitioning and all that is just going to go up.

Jay Campbell
It's going to ramp up. So those would be the two things, you know, that I would recommend.

I mean, obviously I could talk about mitochondrial optimizing peptides that you could add to that. I mean, my favorite, which we're going to make a blend on this now, and I don't want to rabbit hole, but my favorite peptide mix blend, and by the way, this is going to be a massive seller is, uh, any D plus injectable five amino and not see all in a medical grade pen, all blended together. They mix perfectly well. That is instant energy for anyone who is a dumpster fire or a metabolic emergency, insulin resistant, too much weight, no energy, you know, tanked metabolism, injecting about eight to 10 units of that every other day for a week or maybe, you know, maybe four weeks, three weeks or whatever, depending on how bad you are is instant energy. That's instant. Give me exercise, instant. Give me improved metabolic rate, instant, like energy to train or exercise. I mean, it's incredible what that does and no one is selling that as a blend yet, but we will be selling that very soon. So I was kind of like an experiment that my business partner and I have been playing for the last four weeks with it, but that product, that'll be an insane. We're going to actually call it the metabolic blend, I think, but it just massively increases metabolism. So that's, you know, that's, you can explore the mitochondrial peptides too. That would be like option three.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, and again, I will refer listeners to our really epic conversation that was almost entirely on peptides on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Yeah. So friends, go to biolongevitylabs.com use the coupon code Melanie Avalon for 15% off.

Thank you so much, Jay, especially because like we talked about earlier, clearly, these are such powerful compounds that could radically change people's lives, but they need two things. They need one, the right information. So you're providing that. And then two, they need the right substances. So right, I guess those are the two things they need.

Jay Campbell
that's nailing it right on the head. You need the right guidance and instruction, and you need the right products that are pure and efficacious.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Okay, so bio longevity labs calm coupon code Melanie Avalon for 15% off Was there anything else you want to touch on? We covered a lot of ground

Jay Campbell
No, I mean, this was an amazing podcast. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

We did. I don't think, I don't think there's really anything that we didn't cover. I think we nailed it. I think we hit it all.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And friends, just get Jay's books because it's all in there. Are you going to write a sugar fast book? A fruit fast?

Jay Campbell
I probably should. I've written pretty prolifically on X. I've got a couple of really super deep dives, two of them, which I'm going to send to you so you can read them and get the deep dives. But I honestly think, and I'm not joking when I say this, and I think my head would have blown off if I said this two months ago, but I think this is going to revolutionize nutrition.

I think that as more scientists dig into this and start seeing... I mean, again, if you just look at this from a theoretical standpoint and realize that by just eating fruit, and again, it's sugar, because again, at the end of the day, fructose, glucose, sucrose, it all breaks down to the same thing. But if you could increase your metabolism by 20% by just eating fruit and doing it strategically, I mean, dude, what's better than that? I mean, metabolic rate on a ketogenic diet, because again, we wrote the book, Lyle wrote the book, but I helped him write the book back in the 90s. We estimated that the enhanced metabolic rate from a ketogenic diet was 7%. So a carnivore diet is probably 4% to 5%. I think you know this because you've had other smart people on here, but 90% of people who do keto do it wrong because they don't do the right protein and fat percentage. I think it literally is supposed to be 79% to 83% fat and the rest protein. And so most people follow the Atkins style of keto, and they think they can just eat hamburgers all day, and that's not keto. And that's another thing, and we didn't talk about this, but I should say this just to delineate this, but people have high A1C levels when they're doing keto and carnivore because they're eating hamburgers all the time or they're eating raw meat or cooked meat or whatever, animal protein. And they're getting sugar from the protein, which is a very inefficient metabolic conversion called gluconeogenesis, right? So all that over-consumed protein becomes sugar and feeds the brain and also feeds the muscles, but it's very, very inefficient. And eventually, the insulin metabolism or the metabolic response, the glycation pathways from insulin shut down or become diminutized or just inefficient. And that's why people have high A1C levels and again, high blood glucose and become lethargic and have plateaus and can't lose fat because their insulin is not working correctly.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just think there's so much, so much confusion out there. So thank you for what you're doing. This was epic. Can you please, we should just like annually have you back on the shows for more.

Jay Campbell
would love to. I mean, you asked the best question. So anytime you want me to come on, please ask.

And I'll just say for the listening audience, you can find me on social at J Campbell. So it's J, Y, and then Campbell, like the soup spelled out three, three, three. And I'm primarily on Instagram and X. I do have a YouTube channel that is heavily shadow banned because you know, they don't want this information getting out. I think they were trying to block this podcast.

Melanie Avalon
I know, we've been having so many, and you know what's crazy, Jay?

It cut out for me at one point, and I don't think, like, I don't know if you heard, because I came right back, but it was right after you said COVID, and then like cut out.

I was like,

Jay Campbell
Of course, I mean, of course, remember, everything is run by the AI. So when the AI hits or hears a tangent, a term, a word, a phrase, they can absolutely block it out. So it'll be interesting when you run back the recording to see if it was completely moved out. But I mean, that happens all the time.

But also my website, of course, jcamble.com, there's a lot of free information there. We now are over 100 articles that are on page one regarding peptide and bioregulators. So that's also a great place to check out.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put links to everything in the show notes. And again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 448.

Oh, this is so awesome, Jay. Thank you. I'm pumped up. And I'm looking forward to talking to you again in the future with with the new things that you've learned.

Jay Campbell
For sure, Melanie. Anytime you need me, reach out to me, but thank you so much.

And just make sure you email me and I'll get this out to my team when this is posted so we can blast this out everywhere, because this was epic.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect will do. Have a good rest of your day.

Bye Thank you so much for listening to the intermission fasting podcast Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor Relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors show notes and artwork By Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week

Aug 26

Episode 436 – IF For Vascular Health, Fasting And Jet Lag, Fasting And Nitric Oxide, Stem Cells Treatments, Vitamin C Serums, Beautycounter’s Return, The Fountain Of Youth, And More!

Welcome to Episode 436 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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LINKS

Featured Restaurant: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Perrone's Restarant and Bar⁠

⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 436 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 436 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Barry Conrad.

Barry Conrad
How's it going, everyone? How's it going, Mel? What are you doing? How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon
I am doing so well. Okay, you know, what's funny, I started doing the intro and then I, I couldn't remember if you, I mean, it hasn't been that long since you recorded.

I couldn't remember if I pause and then you say hello, or if I like ask you first. Like I forgot what I was saying, basically.

Barry Conrad
basically listeners, it's my fault because I'm really jetlagged. So my brain, if there's like a delay in any answers, it's because my brain is catching up to the jet lag because I've just officially moved to the United States of America on Saturday night.

Melanie Avalon
This is wild although although okay, so you moved here, but then you're gonna travel back to Australia for your show

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because initially I was looking at, oh, I'm moving in September, but I've officially like moved on the weekend because I'm just going back to our trip in July, you know?

Melanie Avalon
My goodness. This is wild. Yes. How do you feel?

Barry Conrad
Well, as I speak to you right now, I'm looking out over this amazing view of the city. It's just New York City and I cannot believe that I'm here. I feel so grateful, so pumped, so stoked. It's very surreal because we've talked about this Mel, like for ages and now it's happening. I'm actually at the same time as you, which is crazy too.

Melanie Avalon
I know oh my goodness we're like and you know what New York I feel like it feels so far away from me but the flight is not that long I don't think I don't I feel like it's not I feel like it's like shockingly not that long

Barry Conrad
to ATL. This is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Maybe it's farther. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Okay, wait, New York City.

Barry Conrad
Let's see. It is really surreal that we're in the same time zone because listeners at the moment, it's 9am, 904am on Wednesday in Australia.

And like we're the day, we're like a day before, which is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And how many days have you been back officially?

Barry Conrad
So I got in like Saturday evening, so it's been like maybe three days, kind of full days sort of thing.

Melanie Avalon
So we have to talk about all things jet lag. Although before that, so direct flight from Atlanta to New York City, yeah, two hours and 10 minutes, two hours and 10 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes.

That's fast. That is, that is less than Lord of the Rings, like watching Lord of the Rings.

Barry Conrad
That's... I wasn't expecting you to say that, but that's true. Like, go into a shower.

Melanie Avalon
I've realized when it comes to time, anything that's in three-hour time chunks, I measure it by Lord of the Rings. Anything that is 10 minutes, I measure by Taylor Swift's All Too Well, the 10-minute version.

And anything that is 40 minutes, I measure by a TV show for like 20 minutes, like back when there was commercials.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, yeah, totally. Or even like the length of shows now on streaming, it's not that long. So yeah, 20 minutes tracks.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And so wait two hours and 10 minutes. That's actually, that's even less than most movies today. I feel, or a lot of movies today.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's like I'll just jump into playing and it's that quick. How crazy is that?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. And this will be, this is old news by the time this airs, but you went to the Tonys, right?

Barry Conrad
i went to the tony awards on sunday night and it was insane so got here saturday my suit just made it because i had a suit customized for the the show and i had to pick it up after landing from this cargo carrier place and so did that sunday afternoon got rid of which the tony awards and it was the most incredible night i can't even put into words how inspired i feel how how many people were there i feel like this is like the best year could have gone like anyone you can think of was like there it was incredible mel

Melanie Avalon
That is insane. Talk about welcome to America. Welcome to New York City. What was your favorite part?

Barry Conrad
Well, Hamilton, the musical, had like a 10-year reunion, so like the cast, the original cast, performed immediately. Yes.

Melanie Avalon
No, I have to watch that. I didn't, I clearly did not watch the Tonys. If I had cable, I would watch. Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

Barry Conrad
And the whole room was like, those goosebumps, everyone was on their feet. It was crazy hysteria when that happened.

And they killed it. And then Cynthia Arevo hosted, she was amazing. Sara Bareilles sang. What did she sing? The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow, you know, from Annie with Cynthia. They did like the stuette for people that have passed away. It was really beautiful.

Melanie Avalon
I'm seeing Waitress on Friday that she didn't, she write the music for that. Pretty sure. Yeah. That's amazing. Oh my goodness. Who'd you sit by?

Barry Conrad
I just sat with the people that I was invited with, a shout out to Michael Castle Group for making it happen, and basically Michael Castle Group, they had six Tony nominations with the picture of Dorian Gray, which is a play, and they won too, so that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Congrats to them. Oh my gosh, do they like go on stage and accept an award?

Barry Conrad
Yes, Sarah snook. I don't know if you know her. She was in succession. She's an Aussie actor, actually, and she's doing it on Broadway right now.

The picture of Dorian Gray and I still have to see it. Apparently, it's crazy, like amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that's so amazing. I am so happy for you. I think I was more excited, not more excited, but I think I was almost as excited as you about you going to this.

Barry Conrad
You actually were and you would have actually loved it Mel and just it's such a different culture like everyone loves to celebrate like ambition and being a go-getter and you feel like anything really is possible here which is man just people just come up to you and just say hey I'm so and so here's my number I'd love to help you it's like why you don't even know me I just got here so this is New York you know

Melanie Avalon
That's amazing. So is that a different culture in Australia? Like that vibe is not quite there in the same way?

Barry Conrad
It's not the same because culturally, Australia is more laid back, so if you sort of a go-getter, sometimes that can be like the tall puppy. Have you heard of this thing, the tall puppy syndrome?

Melanie Avalon
Is that like an Australian term? Wait, the tall poppy syndrome. Is that what American Australians call Americans?

Barry Conrad
It's kind of, see if you can guess what that means.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I'm guessing it means that you're being like, like, look at me, do all the things annoying.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's basically like they want you to like, it's more like they'll cut you down and say, Oh, why, why are you doing that? You shouldn't do that. It's too much.

Whereas in America, I feel like generally, very generally speaking, that's, that's more celebrated if you want to get ahead and they love it and people love to collaborate and it's just different that way.

Melanie Avalon
So the tall poppy syndrome is not the person who's, it's the person who cuts the poppies. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I guess that wrong. I thought the tall poppy syndrome was referring to the, like, the person who's trying to stand tall, but it's referring to the person who cuts them down.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's all puppies. But you know what, in saying that, and I'll, I have to be careful, because I do love Australia. It's one of the best places in the world.

I'm not heading on it. It's just a different culture. That's all.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I also think it's not that it's selfish, I think it's two things in America. So it's very much what you're saying where we celebrate ambition and doing all the things and, you know, you can do anything and that's what America is about, which we love that. That's, yes, sign me up.

And I also think because that's the spirit of things that people, not that people are sucking up to each other, but people see that people who are ambition will make it far and people here know that you want to be with people who are ambitious. So it's kind of like, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, but like people want to, it's collaborative and everybody wins. Do you get what I'm saying?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly what you're saying. And I also don't think that's necessarily bad in some cases. Like, you know, I don't think that's a conniving thing. Like, I think it's also like a survival thing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, no, so true. It's like, and it's like literally like we just understand the importance of social relationships and, you know, and we and celebrate success.

And I think it's like, appreciated and understood how that all goes together here.

Barry Conrad
I totally agree.

And Melanie, I have to share one thing as well, what a guest, see if you can guess what my very, my very first meal was on Saturday night. And we've talked about this before. So try to think.

Melanie Avalon
Did you go to one of the things?

Barry Conrad
I didn't because I was I was too tired from but ordered in but

Melanie Avalon
That would have been like, that would have been like a lot.

Barry Conrad
Committed to the cause straight from the

Melanie Avalon
I don't even remember which ones we listed, but oh my goodness. You ordered in oysters. Oh, wait, let me think. Okay, wait. So is it something that's specific to America?

Barry Conrad
think about something that I've like gone on and on about that's like this would be like my final meal.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, I should remember this. Okay, hold on. I should know this.

Barry Conrad
Another clue is it's pretty American. It's not really an Australian thing, really.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. You're going to tell me and I'm going to be like, is it mashed potatoes? Is it pizza? Fried chicken, fried chicken, fried chicken. I got it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I had soul food, so fried chicken waffles, mac and cheese, you got it, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I was going to say mac and cheese too. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I need to like, I need to like list off things and then for it to come to me. So, um, where'd you get the fried chicken from?

Barry Conrad
It's from a place called, I think it's called Sweet Chick and it's like a pretty popular place here. Everyone goes to New York, so I got it from there and it was delicious. I was kind of, in the end, getting tired while I was eating because of the jet lag, but it was so good now.

It was delicious.

Melanie Avalon
oh my goodness wow and speaking of jet lag so how have you how did you okay so how long you you said it's like how many hours from australia to here like how long was that trip total

Barry Conrad
in case of listeners and Melanie, it was first a three and a bit hour flight from Melbourne to Auckland, New Zealand, and then almost 16 hour direct flight from Auckland to New York.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so how did you so did you fast during any of that? Did you eat? What did you do?

Barry Conrad
I fasted during some of it. I fasted during all of the New Zealand flight and the waiting time and stuff, and then I ate a little bit on the plane, but I instantly regretted it because the food's just not great.

It was a mission, but I'm here now.

Melanie Avalon
Have you been using fasting to reset your circadian rhythm?

Barry Conrad
actually have so that's been really helping a lot so I've really pushed my fast I've done about 20 and a half hours today which is really good that's my first really really long normal normal fast protocol for me today so I feel much better but still getting there what about you what's the longest flight you

Melanie Avalon
Done? Wait, wait, wait. Quick question. So you're going to eat late tonight? You're going to eat after this?

Barry Conrad
So I'll probably have like a little something after this I reckon. I haven't eaten yet.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, you're doing it like Melanie style.

Barry Conrad
You know our shows, we do them in the evening listening, so I'm trying to get that Melanie schedule just to see if I like it, to see if it works with me.

Melanie Avalon
What you could do is, even if you don't like it, you could use it as a, here's my, here's my pitch for you. Are you ready? You ready for my pitch? Okay.

So say you, you could do your normal window every other day. So eat earlier. But then on these days, you could eat after. So that would give you one day a week, like a, a long, like a, that would give you like a, you know, a 36 hour fast or something, right?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I actually could do that. I could do a long, I could push it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I can see what I'm saying like do your normal thing And then have your one day a week and then you would automatically get a long fast

Barry Conrad
Yeah, just throw it in there like a bonus, you know?

Melanie Avalon
I like it. The problem for me is that I can't, because I already eat late, there's no way for me to do it.

There's no way for me to... The cool thing about the situation with you is you could still eat every day and get in a longer fast. I can't because I eat late, so in order to get 36 hours, I would have to actually go to bed again. I'd have to sleep in an empty stomach, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
That's not fun.

Melanie Avalon
Which I don't like doing, but to answer your question, the longest flight, um, I've only, I've only gone to Europe, so Europe stuff. I don't know what's farthest away with, it probably would have, oh, actually Hawaii.

Isn't Hawaii far?

Barry Conrad
How was pretty far, but it depends where you're coming from because I know it's like super far from Australia, but from Atlanta, I'm not too sure

Melanie Avalon
I think now it's like looking up all the, wait, I need to see, I need to see.

Barry Conrad
I feel like the UK would be quite far because you went there for like a Thanksgiving situation.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't that far. It was only the fight with the flight from Atlanta today was like six something hours

Barry Conrad
Yeah, actually, I was someone told me yesterday, actually, that someone invited me to come to a show in the UK. And they said it's actually like maybe like a seven, eight hour flight, because Singapore to Sydney time travel situations, not that far.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like shockingly not as far as I thought it was. It looks like Atlanta to Hawaii. Oh, you can take a nonstop?

Barry Conrad
What did you do? Did you, you had connections?

Melanie Avalon
That's mind blowing to me. Yeah, I always thought that you connected like in LA or something. Okay, so it's nine and a half hours if you take a night, if you take a nonstop.

Barry Conrad
That's still not that bad.

Melanie Avalon
No. But then if you connect, then it's like, you know, 13 hours or something.

Welcome to New York. Did you play Taylor Swift's Welcome to New York? I should have sent that to you. Man, should have sent that to you on the day. I should have like played it. I should have sent you a message, a voice message and like played it.

Barry Conrad
Would you have sang it?

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
This conversation, right, about if you can sing really well.

Melanie Avalon
I sang in the past.

Barry Conrad
See, I think once a singer, always a singer. So I'll have, we might have to change that. Maybe I'll get like an exclusive.

Melanie Avalon
You'll get an exclusive performance of me singing. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, maybe not. We'll see. Never say never. Never say never.

Barry Conrad
Anyway, what about you? How's your week been? How's your past couple of weeks been?

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's good. I can actually, we have a question that asks about the biohacking conference so I can, I can tell you then about going to the biohacking conference. It sounds great. Perfect.

Okay. But before that, shall we do a study?

Barry Conrad
we should. So I am bringing a study today called Time-Restricted Feeding Improves Vascular Function in Healthy Humans. And it was published in 2024 by researchers at the University of Colorado Boulder and appearing in the journal Atarias, Chlorosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. And the reason why, Melanie, you know about this story already, but the reason why this hit quite close for me, hit home for me, was because a few years ago, listeners, I had a clot dislodged in my leg and shot up to my right lung. And I essentially had half of my right lung killed off. And it was a moment where it almost passed away. It almost died. And so any time, well, ever since then, I've been really cautious about anything vein or blood flow related.

So when I came across this study, linking intermittent fasting to vascular health, of course, it really appealed to me. And so this study, it involves involve 24 healthy adults aged between 25 and 55, which is not a huge, huge group of people, but the design was pretty solid. So each participant followed a four day control eating pattern first where they ate three meals spread across like a typical regular normal day. And then they switched to four days of early time restricted feeding, where all meals were consumed between 8am and 4pm. And so they were doing a clean love it, the clean 16 eight fast, but then they skewed earlier in the day that time. So what stood out now is that these weren't people with pre-existing issues, the vascular issues, they were healthy, no metabolic diseases, which makes things even more powerful. Because what the researchers saw was a significant improvement in endothelial function after just four days of time, just four days of time restricted eating. So listeners, if you don't know what that means, it's that refers to how well your blood vessels expand and contract. And it's a massive marker of like cardiovascular health. And then when it's impaired, you're looking at way higher risk for things like high blood pressure, heart attack, stroke, and clot formation, which is what happened to me. So the fact that they saw measurable changes in just a few days is awesome. But it gets better too, because they went deeper and looked at nitric oxide availability as well. So that's the molecule in your body uses to relax blood vessels and improve circulation. So after fasting, nitric oxide by availability improved as well. They also saw a reduction in oxidative stress, which is basically cellular damage caused by inflammation or free radicals. And that reduction further supported improved vessel function. So all this from shifting when the people ate, not what they ate, that's the key here. Not how much, just the timing. And I think that's the key takeaway. And there's this deeper layer to fasting, you know, that to a lot of people just goes under the radar, even to people that fast all the time, forgetting that it's not just about those scale victories, you know, it's not just the weight or the glucose or the willpower,

Barry Conrad
it's literally supporting our health, you know, our vascular system. And it's something I take incredibly seriously.

So of course, this was pretty short term and small, as I said before, we need bigger, longer trials to confirm more how long these effects last. But even with the small pilot, I think one thing's pretty clear is when you eat, when we eat matters. And it's just another reminder, Mel, that IF isn't just about the visible stuff. And yeah, it's protecting you from things you might never see coming. Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that is an incredible study. Thank you so much for finding it. And especially sharing your personal relationship to it, it's still so crazy to me that you went through that. And that just must, I don't know, that must give you so much gratitude for life, having been through that.

I think this is really, really powerful, especially because cardiovascular disease is the number one killer of people in general. I was just reading about it more the other day in a book and it was saying how pretty much, not that everybody gets it, but everybody pretty much when you die, you have some level of approaching cardiovascular disease just because of how prevalent it is and how it happens in the body. And so seeing, like reading the study, that's amazing that after only four days that they saw those effects. And then it's not just, you know, cardiovascular, anything that benefits your cardiovascular health and your vascular health benefits essentially your entire body. You know, like the brain, because the brain is relying on your vascular system to be powered. And so anything that affects your hearts, affects your brain, they call it clean fasting.

Barry Conrad
They specifically said they were doing a clean sixteen eight fast which is which is interesting right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Barry Conrad
I don't think I've seen that in a study, like mentioned specifically, like a clean fast.

Melanie Avalon
That is so interesting. I wonder, honestly, you know, Jen Stevens, who used to be the the co-host on this show, like she really is the one who popularized the idea of the clean fast. I don't know if she originated it. She definitely, you know, is probably the reason it's out there is like a concept.

Shut up. Yeah. So, well, good find. Thank you for sharing.

Barry Conrad
Of course.

Melanie Avalon
So friends, support your heart with fasting and your body and your vascular system. And I guess with nitric, I always wanna say nitrous oxide.

Barry Conrad
Yes, I am, yeah, because of the wisdom teeth.

Melanie Avalon
Nitric oxide, I mean that probably benefits sexual health as well because I mean, it's not what a phiagra does. Yeah. Yeah, so everybody Everything in your body benefits the book I'm reading right now. I'm prepping is on dementia and cognitive decline and she was talking about Like the potential of Viagra for preventing cognitive decline for that same reason because of how it relates to nitric oxide Yeah, I think the studies are conflicting.

Yeah. Okay, basically there's interest surrounding it

Barry Conrad
That's wild. It's like, take fire, granule.

Melanie Avalon
benefit your brain.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, wow.

Melanie Avalon
Alrighty, well thank you for finding!

Barry Conrad
Of course.

Melanie Avalon
Shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So we have the first question we have is from Stephanie and she asks, are you going to the biohacking conference? Where can I get a good vitamin C serum now that beauty counter is gone? And then sad face emoji.

What do you think about stem cells?

Melanie Avalon
All right, rapid fire from Stephanie. Rapid fire with longer answers.

So are you going to the biohacking conference? Well, by the time this airs, it was a while ago. But this is what I was saying in the beginning about I can share about my the past few weeks because I did go to the biohacking conference in Austin, that's Dave Asprey's conference. Next year, it's going to be called Beyond, like the Beyond conference. I think they're rebranding a little bit. But Barry, we were talking about this. We have to go. You have to come this year.

Barry Conrad
I really wanna.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's so amazing. Basically, it's just all these different brands and health and wellness are all in one room. So many podcast guests are there in person. I got to hang out with a lot of people that I've had on the shows. I also got to meet a lot of new brands. So I had a lot of like back-to-back meetings, just meeting all these different brands.

Like the new ones I met were I met a company called Sillient. I'm going to have them on my podcast. This was really interesting. They make a material that you weave into fabric and it actually takes your body's heat and turns it into infrared energy and puts it back into your body. So it's like clothing that helps your body's mitochondria and your energy. Actually, this is what was mind-blowing. They're in so many big brands. They're in like body armor, like the brand Body Armor and probably like 15 other pretty well-known brands, but they just haven't done any marketing around themselves. They've been in the shadows. So now they're creating their own product. It's a pillow. They actually gave me one. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm excited.

So I met them. That was cool. I met an electrolyte company where it's like electrolytes and hydrogen water tablet type thing. I met... Oh, this was fun. He was just on Dave Asprey's podcast actually. It's... Is it the first FDA-approved oral testosterone supplement? Maybe. I don't know if it's the first.

Barry Conrad
That's a game changer if that's the case because that's going to, wow, okay.

Melanie Avalon
if it's the first. It's definitely a big deal in the testosterone replacement world, although it's funny.

So I didn't realize that it's just for men, the FDA approval. So I had a meeting with them and I walked up and I was like, I am so passionate about this. We need more awareness about testosterone for women. And he was like, well, it's just for men right now. And I was like, okay, well, if you come on the show, can we talk about women a lot? So that was cool. But yeah, it was a really great experience. I got to go to the dinner, like they have some VIP dinners, I got to go to one and, you know, meet a lot of really cool people and they were, oh, Barry, how do you feel about EDM dances? Dances?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's with the right crew it's fun. I think it's fun. Did you go to one?

Melanie Avalon
So I've never been to one, so this was my first one and they had an EDM dance last night and apparently it was like some really big celebrity DJ, Steve Aoki, I think is his name.

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, I know, Steve Okey, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so he was the DJ and and what was cool is because it's just the conference. So it wasn't like it wasn't that I mean, it was it was a good group, like it was a good crowd. So it was fun, but it wasn't like horrendously, you know, you can't breathe crowded situation.

You know, it was like in a ballroom at a at a hotel. So that was fun.

Barry Conrad
Did you really get your dance on or were you being shy or were you really getting into it?

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I love dancing, yeah, yeah, I was really into it and then somebody came up and handed me, handed me and my sister these like chocolates, chocolates, slightly psychedelic chocolates, we did not take them but I saved them, so I might.

Barry Conrad
It's like mushrooms or something, what is it?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. So not that I have those anymore, but if I did, yep, we'll see. Stay tuned.

Barry Conrad
Stay tuned, dot dot dot.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I highly recommend the conference. That's the question.

That was Stephanie's question. Friends definitely go, oh, and if you go, please come up to me and say hi, because I would love to meet people in person. That's honestly one of my favorite things.

Barry Conrad
No, honestly, I saw some of your photos and it looked, it looked amazing. Like I looked, I cannot wait to go and daddy, your sister as well said, Barry, Barry, you have to come to the conference. It's really good.

I'm like, well, you've got to make it happen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, now it turned her into a biohacker. Now she's like, I think she, she was like on the fence. I don't know if she would identify as a biohacker, but she, this, this was the thing that like really sold it for her for, um, like, like, you know, liking, liking this world, I guess.

And we got to go see, she loves Jodha Spenza and we got to see Jodha Spenza. That was cool. See you next time. Bye.

Barry Conrad
So question about the dinner, the VIP dinner, you said, did you follow your fasting protocol? Did you eat? What kind of food did they have there?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah. So I don't so that's my third time going to that dinner. And yeah, I didn't I didn't eat anything. And this is funny. So the table I was sitting at, I was sitting with a friend because it's like open seating and you can sit wherever. So I went and sat by one of my good friends. I met him through the company Stemmergem. I've had them on the show before. But in any case, at my table, so my friend was on one side of me and then on my other side was a bodyguard because somebody at the table was like that important that he had three bodyguards in the room. And I was telling my friend I and then and then Martin Luther King, sorry, Martin Luther King's like grandson. He was speaking at the conference, he came in the room and that was a lot of a high security situation. And that was right by me. And so I had a moment I was like, I'm either at this moment at like, the safest place or the least safe place. I'm not sure, probably both existing at the same time.

So yeah, it's a very high security room. It was it was really fun to answer your question with the food. The food was I think it was I gave mine away to everybody. I think it was steak. Yeah, I didn't eat any of it. Do you like you love steak? I know, but I don't I eat and then I go to bed. I you know, so if I so yeah, if I were to eat, I would just like fall asleep. It would take me out of my vibe.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I get it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it was fun. You must come!

Barry Conrad
I'm dead. It's happening.

Melanie Avalon
next year. And literally, we would get to hang out so much because it's if we stay in the hotel that it's in, you're just like there.

And so you like go to the stuff and then you hang out like I then afterwards, I went in the hotel lobby both nights until like really, really late hanging out with people. It's so fun.

Barry Conrad
It's happening, putting it out there.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes.

Barry Conrad
Bookmark at this moment. Let's remember it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay. So those are my, my answer to that. And then where can I get a good vitamin C serum now that beauty counter has gone well, Stephanie, by the time this airs, assuming they don't push the launch beauty counter supposedly came back June 25th. So hopefully that happened because we're recording before that. So that's really exciting, but it's actually not called beauty counter anymore. It's called counter. I'm assuming my link will be counter.com slash Melanie Avalon. They haven't told us yet how the link is going to work. Either way, counter.com put me as your reference. That should get you, that'll get you on my, my list. And I send free things to people. So definitely, definitely check that out. And another alternative is crunchy. I talk about them a lot. I love them. They also have a vitamin C serum. So they're great for that. You can go to crunchy.com slash Melanie Avalon for that use the code advocate 10 to get 10% off your first order. And then also I am obsessed with oral glutathione or so oral wellness is vitamin C serum. So there's this called citrine. I use it every night. It's really, really powerful for that. Go to Melanie Avalon.com slash oral AURO. And then you can go to oral skincare, which is in the top left and definitely check out their citrine serum. It's super high potency. It's 25% vitamin C and glutathione. It's a complex of those. It's ridiculously powerful. I did it again. Sorry. It's ridiculously powerful. He's actually, I saw him. So Dr. Patel, he's the one that's his company and I love him. He has a book called the Glutathione Revolution. I'm actually going to bring him on this show on the intermittent fasting podcast. So stay tuned for that. Oh, he told me that he's trying to make an even a higher potency one that's like 50%, but he's trying to figure out how to do it with the bottles because it literally like breaks down the bottles. So he's workshopping that. Those are my ideas for vitamin C serum.

And I'm just assuming that that beauty count are now counter. Well, I'm sure they'll bring back their vitamin C serum because that was one of their most popular things. And then for her last... Oh, and by the way, really quickly, if you want to get the latest updates from me on all these things, you can go to melanieavilon.com slash cleanbeauty. And wait, wait, wait, Barry, are you going to have a... I forgot. I know we went through your lineup. Are you going to have a vitamin C serum in your lineup?

Barry Conrad
Not yet. We're going to have a vitamin A serum. Yep. But stay tuned.

Melanie Avalon
Like a retinol alternative? Awesome. Okay.

So and then the last question, what do you think about stem cells? Okay, that's a big question. So I mentioned stem region a second ago, they make a supplement that supports your body's endogenous release of your own stem cells. And so stem cells are super powerful. If you want to learn more about all the science of it, definitely check out I've done two episodes with Christian Japro. He's, he owns that stem region company. Stem region is actually the title sponsor of the biohacking conference. So when you go to the biohacking conference, there's like a million sponsors, but stem region is like everywhere because they're the main sponsor. They're incredible. I adore them. Shout out to Stephanie and Christian. I'll put links in the show notes to the two episodes that I've done with them, because you will get the deepest dive of deep dive into stem cells, how they work in the body, what they do. Essentially, for people who are not familiar, we naturally have inside of us these, they're like immortal cells, basically, they're cells that there's different types, but they can become anything. So most cells in our body are differentiated into what they are. So like a liver cell knows that it's a liver cell, and it's not going to become anything else. You know, and your bone cells are bone cells, they're just going to be bone cells. Stem cells, they're like this blank slate. And when your body needs repair, or it needs to, you know, fix things, things that happen with aging, stem cells get released from your bone marrow, and they go to that part of the body and then they can actually repair and become that thing. That's why they're so powerful for healing. And that's why people will do like stem cell treatments. And the idea with stem cell treatments is that you are bringing in these cells that can basically, you know, repair things. Christian is very much sold on the idea that they are, you know, literally the fountain of youth and that he thinks aging and death even is depletion of stem cells. Like he thinks that when we die, it's, you know, we basically capped out, we tapped out with our stem cells. He is more about, like I said, endogenous release, because basically you have this bank of stem cells that you can have, but our bodies don't always release them or use them. So his supplement that he has, and he has a whole story about how he found it, like it was this supplement that was having these profound effects with people's healing. And then he realized the connection to stem cells. And it's like this wild journey. But so that's one option is the endogenous release, I do really recommend stem regen. It's incredible.

Barry Conrad
It's a good name too, Stemmergen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, it really is. So for that, you can get 15% off, go to Melanie Avalon.com slash stem regen S T E M R E G E N and use the code Melanie Avalon to get 15% off.

And then as far as like stem cell treatments. So I think there's a lot of potential there. It's still this weird gray area. Like it's not, it's gotten better, I think, but there's been a lot of, like I think technically stem cell treatments are illegal in the US, but people get around them by doing like exosomes or, or doing stem cells, but like tweaking it and labeling it as exosomes. Like I've done a stem cell treatment in the US. And it was actual stem cells. It wasn't exosomes. I don't know how they got around that, but they did. A lot of people will travel out of the US and get treatment and it's way cheaper out of the US. Basically, my comments on it are, I think it has so much potential. I wish that there was more research on it and that the legality issue would get more easier and clearer in the US because it is, you know, difficult to, it's difficult to find, difficult to go with somebody who trusts with all the issues surrounding it. And I think there's a lot of potential, but I just wish there was more studies.

Oh, that was a lot. Do you have thoughts Barry on vitamin C serums, biocompare and stem cells, all the things.

Barry Conrad
I feel like you answered that beautifully, Melanie. I don't think there's anything that I could add that could be any better than that. That was great.

Melanie Avalon
Have you done anything with stem cells before or thought about it?

Barry Conrad
I actually haven't I was gonna ask you the what what inspired you to to get stem cell treatment like why was it a health issue going at the time and did you feel any different after that process.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So it was an opportunity that was presented to me. It was a practice that wanted to collaborate. So they were starting to do stem cell treatments at their clinic and they basically offered to to do it for me at like the cost of basically they just charged me for the stem cells. They didn't upcharge anything as far as like I got it for a really good price is the point.

And they also used me for training. So like everybody was watching when they did it. The reason I was really interested in doing it was I had this injury in my knee that happened. I know when it happened. It happened actually when I went to D.C. for beauty counter in was that 2021? And my knee just always had this. It was really, really bad in the beginning, like the pain and then wasn't really going away. And it's hard to know. Basically, I don't have that issue now. It's gone. The issue is completely gone.

What's hard to know is they say it takes like six months from the injection until you'll feel better. So it's hard to know. It's hard to know like, Oh, well, would I have been better anyways after six months? You know what I'm saying? I think it would be more telling if I had done it on an injury. I don't have one of these, but if I'd had an injury that I'd had for like a decade, you know, or like at least like longer where I was like certain it wasn't going away. And then yeah.

Barry Conrad
Otherwise, it's like, is this placebo or is this the actual, yeah, I get what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
Did I just, did my body heal on its own anyways? Um, but I do know, I mean, it is completely gone now. So I just know the injection was way worse than I thought it was going to be.

Barry Conrad
Like, what do you mean? Like, just like a big needle? Like, what's, what's

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, the needle was massive massive like the biggest needle I've ever seen and then He they freeze the skin so he froze it and he's like you're not gonna really feel it cuz it's gonna be frozen Oh, and it was so painful And it took so long like like to like push it in and I was just like in my head I was like, oh, this is not this does not feel good. This is not feel good

Barry Conrad
Did they give you anything to deal, handle that pain or not?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, in retrospect, I probably would have doped myself up before, but we survived. So it probably, it probably helped that so many people were watching because, you know, then you're in like performance mode and like fight or flight, you know?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. It was really interesting what you said about the theory on stem cells being, you know, us dying or even aging as lack of stem cells or stem cells being depleted, that I've never heard before.

That's interesting.

Melanie Avalon
It's really interesting. I mean, that's just his theory, and he's very open that that's just a theory for him, but that's what he thinks it is. He thinks death is like stem cell exhaustion.

Barry Conrad
So basically, you know, in some reality, let's go to like this, the stem cell vending machine, and just buy like a new cartridge and just like you measure like battery levels going up and you rejuvenate it again. Like I'm just, you know, some futuristic universe. That's maybe a thing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, what's really interesting is I mentioned stem cells being immortal and I should clarify, I don't mean that they're immortal, but what I mean is basically, at any given point in your body, you have these cells that are young cells. Like the stem cells are, even if you're old and you even if you're like, you know, in your 70s or 80s, and you release endogenous stem cells, those stem cells are young, you know, and then they can become anything.

And Dr. Walter Longo talks about this as well in his book. He talks, maybe it was David Sinclair, one of them, maybe both of them. People talk about as well, how it seems like in theory, our bodies would hold the key to immortality because we can make embryos that are like a, you know, a brand new human. So it's like if we can do that, in theory, it's possible for cells to become, you know, completely new and young again.

Barry Conrad
Very interesting. So.

Melanie Avalon
Yep.

Barry Conrad
And I know that you, and I know that Melanie, listeners probably already know this as well, your thoughts on longevity as well, on living, you wanted to live, you know, live a long, live a long life. Live forever.

Melanie Avalon
I'm I'm all about it. So

Barry Conrad
Only if you look the same, right? Not like not.

Melanie Avalon
Right. Yeah, I'd like to like tap. I'd like to, yeah, plateau at a certain or age backwards, if required. It's funny, whenever I hear stem cells, because I was raised in a very Christian church and it was during the time and I went to a Christian private school and it was during the time that there was all the stem cell controversy was when I was in like high school, I think. I remember hearing like stem cells and like thinking, oh, those are really bad because because there was a lot of controversy around embryonic stem cells.

But what I want to clarify now is it's not, well, a few things. One, the embryonic stem cells they were using presumably were stem cells that would have been thrown away anyways, but that's a whole, that's a whole another topic. Now it's not, it's typically not embryonic stem cells that are used. It's typically, it could come from a lot of different places, but it came from like the placenta rather than the embryo. There's other places it can come from. I should be more knowledgeable on this, but it's not typically embryonic stem cells that are being used today is my point. That's super fascinating, Mel. I know. I'll be really curious. I'll be curious to see what happens in the future with all of this. So should we have our proverbial breaking of our fast?

Barry Conrad
We actually should and you know what I think today more than any of the show in recent times I feel like super ready so like this is going to be awesome.

Melanie Avalon
because you're fasted, right? Well, actually, wait, you're normally fasted, right? Or normally you're fasted, but it hasn't been as long. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you're feeling it. Okay, yeah, welcome to my world. Again, how many times can I say that? I'm picking this one, right? Yes, so I have a surprise for you. It's not a Disney restaurant. It's not? No, and actually, I was actually gonna do another non-Disney one, but then today, a listener, shout out to Christina, she suggested this restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow. Shout out Christina.

Melanie Avalon
I know. So I'm going to tell it to you, but first I want to read her message about it. Can I read her messages?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, let's hear it.

Melanie Avalon
So this is where she lives, I guess. So she said, we're going out to dinner Saturday evening to our favorite place.

And I was just playing the menu game and realized that this is one for Mel and Barry Conrad. She said, and then I asked her, why does she like it? And she said, the quality of the food is off the hook. The diversity of the dishes, the varietal of meats. There's always something so different and the vibe is fun. When you read the menu, you can see that they've got a great sense of humor, very tongue in cheek. Barry will flip for the oyster caviar service menu and all the spirits. I think you will be very happy with the wine list. I am a big fan of the cocktails. They're also on the SOS app, the Seed Oil Safe app. And then she says, last time we went, there was a rack of lamb that was amazing, but I didn't see it this time. They changed it up frequently. I can't wait to see what you guys order.

Barry Conrad
Wow, that sounds delicious, Christine. Thanks so much for the tip.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and so when I looked at the menu, it's really cool. They're into like all sustainable and local sourcing and they have wine awards. So let me send you the link.

Barry Conrad
Hey, let's, I can't wait to check it out now. That lamb sounded legit. I love lamb so much.

Melanie Avalon
So it's called Perron's Restaurant and Bar, changing lives one dish at a time. And they say, let me see where it is. So it is in Polly's Island, South Carolina. They say on their main page. So they say that their menu is always a work in progress, that they always evolve and change it with the goal of creating one of the area's most unique, exciting and delicious food experiences.

They consider it world cuisine with a Mediterranean focus. They're all about local and organically sourced when available. Their proteins are growth hormone and antibiotic free. They use local poultry farms, ranchers, fishermen, crabbers, clamors and shrimpers, sustainably farmed salmon. And let's see, they're very serious about their cocktails, wines and beers. They have a wine spectator award-winning wine list and they have a core event so that you can, you know, try vintage and price your wines. So shall we look?

Barry Conrad
Let's have a look. I'm going to click on the, should I click on the menu here? Appetizers.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay. So appetizers. Wait. Hey, so app. Okay, wait. So we have options. So there's appetizers, entrees, chop house, caviar service oysters. Should we look first at the caviar service oysters?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I reckon that'll be before, you know, like before the substantial entrees. Okay, perfect.

Melanie Avalon
So, well, we know, we know how I feel about oysters at the moment, at the moment, but I like caviar. So what would you get from this?

Barry Conrad
Okay. And here's that word again, shucked. So I'm going to get, there's oyster shooters, listen, so fresh shucked oyster of the day. I'm not going to, there's the Japanese Bloody Mary. I don't love Bloody Mary drinks in general, so I don't think I'm going to like that one.

There's the caviar oyster shooter, which is, oh, there's the caviar, sorry, which is American hackleback Russian standard platinum vodka, creme fraiche, seaved egg, and chives. I reckon I'm going to do that. And then I'm also going to do, uh, there's so many options here. I'm, ah, what I'm going to do the, the gold service Royal Beluga.

Melanie Avalon
I knew you were going to get that. How'd you know? Because you like the... We talked about the Volugas, the fancy pants one, right?

Barry Conrad
Yep and it's got like warm blini, seed oil-free sea salt, kettled potato chips, creme fraiche, seed farm egg chives, chilled caviar. So delicious. What about you Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I love that they put seed oil free on the menu.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's specific. It's good.

Melanie Avalon
So I think I like the, I want to try the smoked trout row and chips, but not the chips, but it can be on the side.

Barry Conrad
So can I have those? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
you can so like plain do they have just wait caviar eggs so they don't have just plain caviar right oh oh yeah they do yeah they do the silver service oh right oh well you got the royal beluga caviar so i'll i'll like taste that if you'll let me taste it and then and then i'll take wait you did get some oysters right or did you not

Barry Conrad
I got some oysters shooted. I got the...

Melanie Avalon
Oh, right, wait.

Barry Conrad
Oh, I didn't get oysters, I said, I didn't get oysters, no, no, no, no, no. Oysters in the half shell, I'll do that for sure, fresh oysters.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, I will maybe taste one of those.

Barry Conrad
It's gonna happen now. It's closer. It's more of a chance now that I live here because I you know I feel like I'm creeping in it's coming in and it's gonna happen

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'll taste it for you. I'll take one for the team. That's why I'm here.

Barry Conrad
Should we go to the appetizer slash entrees?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Or wait, yes, yes, yes.

And there's also the steakhouse or the chop house option. Oh, it's all on here as well. Oh, it's on here. Oh, and it's the chop house. Oh, this is the full menu it looks like. Okay, so starters. Is there a starter that you like?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, the starters, you know what, I'm definitely going to do, have to do a burrata. I love burrata cheese so much. I'm doing that.

I'm going to have the, from what I can see here, there's dry aged salmon roulettes. That sounds really good. It's a spreadable dip, poached coho salmon, dry aged in house, smoked salmon per nod, salt and shallots, lemon zest, butter and crème fraiche. So the toasted baguettes, that sounds really good. And then last but not least, I have to get the mussels, Bangkok mussels. You, Mel, you haven't tried mussels, right? Have you? You said this. It could be a lucky day, oysters and mussels.

Melanie Avalon
if I can, like, get to, actually, I might, seeing what's on the muscles, I might actually just, I might try them in the, the sauce. Maybe, maybe, we'll see.

I think I would get maybe the Wagyu steak tartare, plain, everything on the side, if possible. Oh, it's from Georgia.

Represent. And yes, yeah, yep. And I don't have to specify how to order because tartare is rare or raw, which we love. I love

Barry Conrad
Blue Raw. Also Mel, I just realized I could have gone to this place because I went to Charleston a couple years ago. If we had been doing the show then I could have ducked in.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, next time.

Barry Conrad
Okay, well, should we go down to the soup and salad? You into the soup and salad, are you going to skip that?

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna skip. Feel free to get something though, if you like.

Barry Conrad
You know what, I'm just going to do the crab soup because I do love a good seafood chowder type situation. So North Carolina, lump blue crab.

You know how I feel about trying things from the actual area. So doing that crab soup.

Melanie Avalon
And I love what they say, I mean, you didn't get a salad, but all of their dressings are made in house from scratch with no processed or refined oils. So there's no trans fats. And they use non GMO, expeller pressed avocado oil and cold pressed extra virgin olive oil. That's super cool. That's first.

Barry Conrad
It's good.

Melanie Avalon
It's for all the, because there's all the concerns about the seed oils. Okay, for Andre, what are you going to get? This looks, there's so many things I want.

Barry Conrad
I know. Oh man. Uh, what am I going to get? Okay.

Here we go. I feel like I'm going to do the, the USDA prime ribeye 16 ounce. It's a prime chop. I'm going to get that medium rare. And then I'm also going to get with that side of mushrooms and onions. Love mushrooms so much. Bacon, mac and cheese and some roasted butternut squash.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm gonna get definitely the elk tenderloin for sure, grass-fed pasture raise, cooked sous vide to medium rare. Oh, specified, I wonder if I can get it rare. I'm gonna ask if I can get it rare. I'll get everything on the side.

It's a lingonberry and pork sauce. If you wanna try it, otherwise I'll get it without it. I'll try it. Okay, on the side, lingonberry and pork sauce, organic grain, medley and grilled vegetable. And then I also want a fish. So depending on what the fresh catch of the day, okay, so if the fresh catch is trout, then I will get that.

Otherwise, interesting that it's a dry aged salmon. That's interesting. Well, I think it depends. Yeah, either the fresh catch, depending on what it is, or then I might switch it up and get duck, which is jurgle wicks. I don't know what that is. Duck breast, pan seared, two potato mash and grilled vegetable, blackberry pork demigle.

Barry Conrad
That sounds pretty good. The Blackberry report doing glaze sounds interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting, too, that the fish is, that they already say how it's prepared, you know, that they don't adjust it based on what the fish is, but it's with black forbidden rice with a sauce of saffron, preserved lemon, shallots, white wine, shrimp stock, and cream. So it must always be a fish that goes well with that, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, the combination. Yeah. I actually drink many. We need to definitely check out their wireless cocktails.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes, and the dessert.

Barry Conrad
Happy ending slash liquid dessert slash dessert. Let's do that first.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I like the quote says seize the moment. Remember all those women on the Titanic who waved off the dessert cart. Alcohol and dessert because adulting is hard.

Barry Conrad
I like that. I like these quotes. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Me too.

Barry Conrad
Is anyone catching? Is anything anyone? Is anything catching your eye on this dessert menu, Mel, that you can see?

Melanie Avalon
Desserts, I will probably get another entree, some fish or something. If I were to order a dessert in my, you know, dream world where I eat desserts. Oh, wait, these are drinks. Where's the actual?

Barry Conrad
If you go all the way right down to the bottom of the page.

Melanie Avalon
Probably, I would just get the house made ice cream.

Barry Conrad
Yeah? Mm-hmm. That sounds pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get a couple of things, see if you can guess.

Melanie Avalon
I think you want the warm chocolate layer cake. Yep, you got it. And you're going to add a scoop of ice cream. Yep, you got it. And then you want, do you want creme brulee?

Barry Conrad
Yes. Well, I was going to say, how'd you know? It's like, Barry, we've done this.

I'm a creature of heaven when it comes to ordering food. I think Melanie knows that. I think you all listening know that as well.

Melanie Avalon
Was there another one that you wanted or those two?

Barry Conrad
I think those two because I had, I've added a couple of things in the savory. So I reckon that's pretty good.

And then definitely to find a, they said they were famous for their cocktails, right? So yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and I'm gonna look for the wine list while you're looking at the cocktails. See, we work well as a team.

Barry Conrad
See? I already know what I want from the cocktails.

Melanie Avalon
Do you see a cocktail that you like?

Barry Conrad
I do. So I am eyeing the chili margarita. Surprise, surprise. Gonna do that.

And then also I'm going to try the casa fresca, which is like fresh muddled mint, lime and cucumber, agave, splash of grapefruit, and club soda.

Melanie Avalon
I, okay, this wine list is really low.

Barry Conrad
And if you happen to spot a decent looking Pinot Grigio mill, I definitely will get that for like the table. AKA probably, I don't know if you'd have it, but I'd be sipping in that as well.

Melanie Avalon
They have a Pinot Grigio from Italy and they have one from Oregon.

Barry Conrad
I'd probably go the idly one.

Melanie Avalon
And then for me, I'd have to look up and find if these are organic or not, but I would probably get something French. They have a few bougoulets. I love bougoulets.

So I probably, they have four bougoulets from France. So I think I would look up those and see which one is organic. And because they have a, see what it says about the tasting. I'm guessing that, because they said earlier that they had the Coravinne, so I wonder if they, if you can like taste the ones by the bottle, that would be super cool if you can. I'm not sure if you can. So something French, I'm thinking, oh, or am I get, they have two burgundies. So maybe one of those.

Barry Conrad
Either way, they weren't lying when they said they had a long list. It looks pretty good from what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they have four burgundy pinot noirs. Okay. So yes, I basically would look through the four burgundy pinot noirs and the four Bourgeois, and I probably would do, I would do one of those to be determined. So thank you, Christina, for the recommendation.

Thanks for the, thanks so much, Christina. We're going to have to check it out when we're there sometime.

Barry Conrad
The restaurant tour we were doing was going to be like a spin-off like it's going to be.

Melanie Avalon
That would be so fun. We could go to every restaurant that we've had that we've like mentioned.

Barry Conrad
You'll like whittle it down like you look this massive tall and then people get to see actually what you know how we eat really for real

Melanie Avalon
really fun. That'd be a lot of travel though. I don't know if I got to like, I got to prepare myself mentally for that. That's yeah, we'll think about that.

Barry Conrad
We may need to do like maybe like a road trip version, like just in America or something, or just Europe, or just pick a country and then...

Melanie Avalon
Maybe once I have a private jet and we can just like easily go there. I don't know if I can do all that trouble.

Barry Conrad
Barry's doing it, I'll just sleep. You can video me in. So funny, sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
All right. Well, this was super fun. Listeners, we hope you enjoyed today's show.

These show notes will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 436. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifodcast.com slash stuff we like. You can follow us on Instagram. We are ifodcast. I am Melanie Avalon, Barry as Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
No, thank you so much for tuning in everyone and we will chat to you next time. Talk to you soon, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
talk to you next week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week! you

Jul 28

Episode 432 – Fasting And Wisdom Teeth Recovery, Fasting And Cancer Cells, Type 2 Diabetes Remission, Blood Sugar Spike Problems, Addressing A Weight Loss Lull, Eating Too Early Or Too Much, Getting Ready For An Event, And More!

⁠Role of Intermittent Fasting In Starving Cancer Cells⁠

Welcome to Episode 432 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 432 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 432 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today? How are you recovering?

Barry Conrad
Melanie what's up how's it going hey everyone thanks for tuning in. Everyone if you not knowing what we're talking about melanies asking how i'm recovering because i've just had my two bottom wisdom teeth yanked out.

A few days ago not too long ago so i'm not gonna lie it's it was a situation it was very very painful and lots of force and i was awake the whole time. Lots of thoughts about this cuz melanie didn't you say you like you should try to ask them if they what was the thing the laughing gas situation.

Melanie Avalon
I have so many questions already. Number one, I feel like, wait, OK, OK, I remember you said you're doing it awake. Is that normal? I feel like normally people get that twilight anesthesia stuff.

Barry Conrad
I feel like Americans, you Americans just have this luxury of just like being knocked out for everything. I did actually ask them, I said, hey, one of my friends said that I need to ask, do you have like nitrous?

And the guy was like, hahaha, actually, we just run out. I'm like, oh, awesome.

Melanie Avalon
What you said my friend told me to ask.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I actually did say that.

Melanie Avalon
I told Barry, I was like, who put me on the phone with them? I'll talk to them. I'll be like, listen, he needs nitrous.

Barry Conrad
I was tempted to call you, actually. I was actually tempted to call you right there. I was like, oh, is this weird? I was about to. And then I was like, ah, maybe she'll think this is a lot, like being put on blast like that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I would have loved that. What time was it my time?

Barry Conrad
This was like, by the time I got in there, I think it was like 4.20 PM my time, so that's probably like, it's pretty late your time, because now it's like 10 AM my time. So it's pretty late.

Melanie Avalon
So, okay, wait, 11, 12, so like six hours later, then now 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, oh, but I was awake, so it would have been like 2 a.m.

Yeah. I would have had my wine, yeah, next time. Hopefully there's not next time, but next time, call me.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, hopefully there's no

Melanie Avalon
It's not a next time melody. But you know what I would have thought? I would have been so excited.

I would have thought that you were calling me on the – oh, wait, no, but I knew you weren't having anesthesia. Never mind. I would have a moment thinking that you were calling me like loopy. That'd be exciting.

Barry Conrad
I was hoping to do that, because that would have been funny, because then you could go, you don't remember, you don't remember this, Barry, but you were like really loopy, like you'd recall it and I'd be like, I don't remember, I was out of it, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. That'd be amazing.

So, but you, so you were not put under, which by the way is better for your health because apparently, apparently anesthesia is like horrible for your body, like just horrible. So that's good that you don't have that to recover from, in addition to recovering from the situation. So no nitrous. I would have, I would have been like, I'm, I'll come back another day then if that's the case, I wish you had had it buried because it would have made it, it would have turned it into like the most fun experience ever.

Barry Conrad
Well, I feel like I believe that. And also one of a client of mine in America, she said the same thing when I said I just had a wisdom teeth extraction and she said, did you have all the things I'm like, what?

It's an American thing. It's not just Melanie, you all think that you get like this buffet.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, of things to make you feel, to not even make you feel better, make you feel great.

Barry Conrad
By the time, Melanie, by the time that they yanked it out, like he, there were, it was in pieces because it was so tough to get out.

They had to drill, smash, pull, yank.

I feel like they pulled my face and I was, I was awake.

So I had my headphones in the whole time listening to music, but I could still hear the drill going.

I could still hear them fussing over like what's going on.

It was pretty full on.

Melanie Avalon
I'm not going to lie. I'm not glad that you went through this.

I'm glad you're saying this because this further colors my argument, which is being in a stress state when something bad is happening to you is not good for the... Being in that nervous system state isn't really good for the trauma of it, from a health perspective. So I feel like it's not just about the pain relief and the loopiness of the nitrous. I feel like it actually is better for your body to be in a disinhibited state when things happen to you.

Barry Conrad
I agree. I actually do agree because while I was there, I remember thinking at some points during the process, is this actually bad that I feel? Because I caught myself feeling tensed or being tensed up. I'm like, is it bad that I'm not just surrendering to the process? Because even though I couldn't feel it technically, it's still, I was awake, so I didn't feel relaxed. So you're right.

If I was just kind of knocked out, your body can probably just let it happen and just deal with it. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And this is not the same thing at all. And I am not advocating this. And just to further prove this point, it's like how people who are drunk when they get into accidents, they don't suffer as many injuries usually because their body doesn't prep itself for the stress impact. And so they don't get as much of a negative effect. This has been studied.

The concept of it, so I'm not advocating being drunk and getting into accidents at all, that's horrible. The idea is basically that being in that stressed out mental state doesn't help anything for the stuff that's happening to you. I think as far as the implications of the effects and the recovery. So we just need to get to all the nitrous next time.

Barry Conrad
Well, I was going to get like another procedure done, but I'm not too sure if I'll have, we'll see how I go and see how I go, but if that does happen, I'll definitely have to be under for this next thing, but we'll see.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, another yeah.

Barry Conrad
Another situation like potentially on my leg, but we'll talk about that offline until it's TBC.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, okay. Well, to bring this all to the topic of the show, listeners, Barry has been saying, just in case they're curious about how authentic Barry is in real life about these things, he has been telling me multiple times about his recovery and how much fasting is helping, right?

Barry Conrad
Absolutely. Because, well, the first 24 hours or so, it was pretty rough, but that's to be expected. But after that, even, I felt like really, really good, you know? And I think even like the dentist was saying that you're tracking really well. My mom, who's worked at the dentist before as well, she said you're tracking really well and recovering really fast.

And I can only attribute that to intermittent fasting. I kept up my fasting protocol during the process, leading up to during and after as well. And I feel good. And I feel like my body's pretty resilient. And this even thrown back to when I broke my ankle a while ago as well. Like, I recovered pretty quickly. And so I've got to put that down to my intermittent fasting. So it's not just about burning fat or autophagy or any of these things. It's also about recovery, you know? So I think there's so many benefits to intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon
It's so amazing. I cannot agree more.

It really makes me wonder, you know, if I had been following a healthier lifestyle, like when I got my wisdom teeth out back in the day, I feel like, I feel like the recovery process would have been better and I probably wouldn't have had as much inflammation and, and we're actually, we haven't recorded it yet. Coming up, we are going to have a special episode with a guest who works with surgery and we're going to talk all about fasting and surgery and recovery, which, which will be great because we get, we actually get a lot of questions about that.

Barry Conrad
That's awesome, very topical, right? Awesome, awesome.

And Mel, I was gonna ask, have you told the listeners, have you talked on the podcast about your wisdom teeth experience and what you had to do the day after?

Melanie Avalon
Have I? Was I telling you that on the show or in real life, like not on the show? Do you remember?

Barry Conrad
I don't know if it was actually on the podcast, but it's a pretty entertaining story though.

Melanie Avalon
don't remember.

Listeners haven't heard it.

I'll tell it again.

This is one of the things where, and I probably told you this when I told you, like to this day, I think my parents made the wrong decision in making me do this.

Like I don't think I should have had to do this, which was, I got my wisdom teeth out like berries.

Mine was actually all four.

They were impacted.

It was a whole like anesthesia situation.

And my sister's graduation from high school was the next day.

And I was actually in college.

So I had come back from college because you know, like when you haven't seen your friends from high school in a while, so it's like, you know, impressions matter.

And so it was going to be seeing like all the high school people.

And my parents made me go the day after my wisdom teeth removal.

And I looked like a chipmunk and it was in a church and I wore sunglasses inside the whole time.

And I hid like in the corner to this day.

I don't think I should have had to go to that.

Barry Conrad
Just the visual of that. It's very funny. I know it probably wasn't funny for you, but it was funny to think about it.

Melanie Avalon
I literally remember having on sunglasses and my mom being like, you can't wear those inside. And I was like, I have to wear these.

And then I hid in the gift shop. Cause like the church is also, side note, growing up, I always thought it was super weird that churches had gift shops.

Barry Conrad
I think so too, because now that I think about it, it is weird.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I guess it makes sense if you're providing, I don't know, but that never really tracked with me when I was little. I was like, isn't this a little bit, didn't Jesus go to the temple because they were selling things at the temple and he got mad and he like turned over the tables?

I feel like that's a story in the Bible.

Barry Conrad
He definitely turned over the tables and I don't know if he'd be all about gift shops like hey, buy this, buy this, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, even though I love the gift shops because they would have like all the stuff and you can hide in them during graduation.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. But also, you're right. That is really weird to think about, like, you know, selling books, selling CDs, selling little trinkets and stuff. It's weird.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm, but here we are now on the other side of things

Barry Conrad
And outside of gift shops, no hiding with your sunglasses on, and outside of weird gift shops and churches.

Melanie Avalon
But to this day, because I'm all about supporting and like I'm the type of person that would go to the graduation and I don't think parents I should have had to go to that like no, no, no, no, I was at a fragile time of adolescence of like social hierarchy circles mattering and looking like a chipmunk was not good for me.

Barry Conrad
That's very funny.

Melanie Avalon
But and I think we can talk next week where Barry and I also just had a really fun exciting call, but I think teaser we can tease it next week, maybe

Barry Conrad
That sounds good. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Cool, shall we jump into some fasting related things? Also, I'm sending you lots of good vibes that you will feel, 100% very soon.

Barry Conrad
I'm feeling it. Thank you so much for the good vibes. I receive it. Believe it. Take it awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So are you starting? Yeah, you have a study for us today?

Barry Conrad
Yes, I brought a study today and it is called the role of intermittent fasting in starving cancer cells. Now, we've heard a lot about this. I've read a lot about this over months and years even, just like, is this a thing? Is this even possible?

And the study I'm bringing is it was conducted by researchers from the Department of Biotechnology at the Government College University in Faisalabad, Pakistan. It was published in the journal Current Drug Targets and it explores how IF could actually support cancer treatment by disrupting the fuel supply that cancer cells depend on to grow and survive.

Melanie Avalon
Can you show me the title again of it?

Barry Conrad
the role of intermittent fasting in starving cancer cells. Perfect. Thank you. No worries. And what this paper really digs into is the difference between how healthy cells and cancer cells respond to stress, especially the kind that comes from fasting is the stress from the body. So cancer cells are sort of, in a sense, like metabolic machines. So they're constantly, they need glucose, they're always replicating, basically refusing to rest. Like, they don't want to chill, they just want to keep going. So they burn through energy fast, and that gives us an opening. So because when you limit glucose and insulin through fasting, you actually start to create an environment where those cells, they struggle to thrive.

So now the healthy cells, they don't respond the same way. They know how to slow down, conserve energy and protect themselves and food is scarce. And so this study email, it's referred to as like the differential stress resistance, which I've never read that before, which basically means healthy cells become more resilient under stress. And while cancer cells become more vulnerable, and that's exactly why I have and what I have promotes a kind of sort of biological edge for our body systems, while weakening the enemy. So the study, it highlights how fasting boosts our immune response. So specifically, it increases CDA T cells, and those babies are like our body's frontline cancer fighters. So they lower things like inflammation, which is massive. They make chemo more effective, the cancer cells become more sensitive to treatment, while healthy cells are better shielded.

So not only does fasting slow tumor progression, it also helps to reduce the side effects of chemo, which I've actually always wondered about. Because it can be controversial to just say like a blanket statement, fast while doing chemo or don't do fasting while doing chemo or intermittent fasting does this while doing chemotherapy because it's a big deal. And they also dive into fast fasting mimicking diets, which we talk about on the show as well. And for listeners who don't know what that is, those are sort of like low calorie, low protein plans that stimulate fasting, while still letting you eat a little bit. And in mouse studies, these diets are sort of like they slowed tumor growth, they improved survival, they reduced toxicity of treatment, again, like really good stuff. And again, like that said, as we always say, fasting, it's not for everyone, it's really important to consult your doctor during the treatment specifically, that's the context of what I'm saying here. And researchers are really clear about that. So people who are malnourished, for example, or really frail, really like elderly already underweight, have eating disorder issues, like they need to approach this with caution.

Barry Conrad
So that's something we've got to preface as well. But for those who can implement it safely, this study shows that intermittent fasting could be a really powerful companion to traditional therapies. And it's not just about weight loss, just as we talked about with the wisdom teeth situation, we're talking real cellular level support that could actually help the body fight back against cancer while preserving what's healthy. So yep, still early, more trials needed, but it's headed in a pretty exciting direction.

And Melanie, what do you think of the study?

Melanie Avalon
I love this so much. Thank you so much for finding it.

Yeah, so I've read before about fasting and cancer and it's really interesting because there's something called the Warburg Effect, which is basically that cancer cells. Dr. Jason Fung talks a lot about this and the Cancer Code, which is his book all about cancer. And interestingly, he doesn't actually talk about, I thought he would talk about fasting more than he does in that book because he's such a fasting legend, but it's more just about what actually causes cancer. But the Warburg Effect is essentially this finding that cancer cells, they preferentially burn glucose even in the presence of fatty acids. And even though it seems they actually can burn fatty acids, they choose to burn glucose. And so this idea of turning off that glucose as a source of fuel to cancer makes it a really viable way to actually starve those cancer cells while supporting the body, which is amazing. So it's basically like selectively targeting cancer while boosting the health benefits of your body, whereas something like chemo, which is really important and needed for people, it's attacking everything and attacking your body in the process, which is not ideal. I had read that before, actually way back when I wrote my book about how there were studies on fasting actually helping with the side effects of chemo because there are so many side effects to that. It's really just encouraging because cancer is such an overwhelmingly pervasive thing and we think anything we can do to help is so wanted.

And it's really great that there's this lifestyle tool that a lot of people can utilize. And I will say as a disclaimer, I think there's a few types of cancers that actually can feed on ketones. So obviously we're not saying all the people do fasting all the time for cancer, but just in general, these findings seem to be really supportive. So I love that you found that. And we will have already, by the time this comes out, we will have aired. We actually recently got a partnership with Falter Longo's fasting mimicking diet prolon, which is something where people can actually buy a kit and try out that diet. So I don't have the code yet for listeners, but we'll have to add it to the show notes because we should have a discount code. If people ever want to try a fasting mimicking diet, I would imagine it's probably going to be prolonlife.com slash I have podcast with the code I have podcast for some sort of discount, but we will have to confirm that.

Barry Conrad
How good is that for timing? Look at that little connection.

Melanie Avalon
I know, I know I was looking up to see when like when we actually are running a spot for them. And I think yeah, it will have happened. It will have happened last month, I think. So yeah, but thank you for finding that.

Do you have cancer in your family, by the way?

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I do too and it's crazy because it's one of those things that, and I was reading a stat about this, but I think basically, I mean, pretty much everybody probably knows somebody directly affected by cancer. So it's so nice that there's something that can have such an overreaching effect that can potentially benefit so many people.

Barry Conrad
Definitely very personal my second mom passed away from cancer and by the time she found out i was just too late to even you know it was just too far down the track and. You know there's so much more knowledge that we have now and as the science keeps evolving like people can become better equipped to help manage whatever.

They going through which I think is the most amazing thing about science in general, like you know, the more we know, the more we can do and that's powerful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, could not agree anymore. And yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that. So we will keep spreading things that might help. All right, shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
I think we should do that now, let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
All right, would you like to read the first question from Sabrina?

Barry Conrad
sure would. So Sabrina from Facebook says, can diabetes really be reversed with diet or is it just controlled with diet and you will never be able to eat normal again? My husband was diagnosed last September. He chose to do the diet and not take drugs and his numbers are great.

His average is 120 but maybe once a month he just wants to try something and then his sugar goes very high quickly and drops pretty quick. Also wondering how that is affecting him when he has these little treats. Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
All right. Sabrina, thank you for your question. So it's such a good question. And I'm going to start by addressing this concept of, you know, can it be reversed or is it just controlled? So there's type one versus type two diabetes. It sounds like your husband likely has type two diabetes. Type one diabetes is an autoimmune-related condition where your pancreas just doesn't produce insulin adequately. People are usually born with it versus type two diabetes, which is where it's induced by diet. And it's where the pancreas essentially gets overwhelmed with having to produce too much insulin all the time. Your cells become resistant to listening to insulin because they're getting hit with insulin all the time. And the reason this is all happening is because of the constantly high blood sugar levels. And then ultimately it can lead to, you know, failure of the pancreas, you know, increasingly other health conditions. So it's just such a problem.

What's really interesting about this idea of can it be reversed versus controlled? So people will say that once you have any sort of condition that you're always just in remission, that you're, you know, that you that it never is gone, you're just managing it essentially. And what I find really interesting about this, and this is kind of like a little bit of an esoteric approach, but you could have two people who are controlling their blood sugar levels through diet. Let's say one person had type two diabetes in the past and then came back and the other person never had type two diabetes. Both of those people, presumably, if they were to follow a diet that constantly raised their blood sugar levels and constantly led to a situation that could create type two diabetes, like they're both vulnerable to that. And it's all being affected and managed by diet. So I find it really interesting that we would consider these two people who, let's say right now, like I said, have normal blood sugar levels, they're controlling it through diet. One has had type two diabetes, the other has not. Yet we consider one of them to be in remission and controlling their type two diabetes and the other person not. But they're both equally, I mean, they're both susceptible to type two diabetes. So in a way, it almost doesn't matter to me, it almost doesn't matter this terminology around reversing, controlling, managing remission, because type two diabetes is something that's going to be created by or started by or restarted by your diet and lifestyle.

So to me, the terminology doesn't really, I don't want to say it doesn't matter, but it almost doesn't matter because it doesn't change the facts about if you do this, you might trend towards type two diabetes. And if you don't, you won't. So as far as your husband and doing the diet, he's not taking the drugs. I'm assuming the drugs might be something like metformin or insulin. It's hard to know, probably metformin. And now his numbers are great. But now he's experiencing this thing where once a month he wants to try something and his sugar goes very high. I'm assuming, I would like to know more about what he's eating.

Melanie Avalon
I'm assuming he's doing a lower carb diet, probably. And this actually is pretty common where people are following a low carb diet, a whole foods diet, a keto diet. They actually can get this sort of physiological insulin resistance, like a temporary insulin resistance. And it's because the body is accustomed to not having a lot of blood glucose around and blood sugar around. So when it does get it, the cells actually are resistant because they want to preserve that glucose for the brain. So basically people who are not eating, who are on a low carb diet or keto diet might experience this effect where when they have some carbs, their sugar goes super high and then drops. So it's something where it could be temporary because of the diet he's following.

The only way to know if it's a quote beneficial adaptation would be if he were to continue following a whole foods diet inclusive of carbs, so have a higher carb intake. And then when he has glucose, sugar, whatever it may be, does he have the same response? That would be pretty telling as to whether or not it's like a temporary thing now where his body is just kind of preferentially not taking in glucose? Or is it that his cells still are insulin resistant across the board, which is possible? And he just, you know, it's gonna have issues taking in sugar. It's also a thing where like if, especially if he's following a keto diet, and it's really high fat, if he's in that state, and then he adds in a sugar dose, it's even harder for his body to process that because those are two competing fuel substrates. There's something called the Randall cycle, which speaks to this idea that basically the body is preferentially burning carbs or fat, not both at the same time. So if he's following like a high fat diet, and then he adds in sugar, it's not a good situation. And that might be also causing this really high number.

And then what can happen is it goes really high, the cells aren't taking it in. And then eventually that the pancreas pumps out a lot of insulin to bring it down. And then you get reactive hypoglycemia, where you actually the blood sugar goes too low. So that might be what he's experiencing. To answer thoughts and responses, how is it affecting him when he has these treats? So it's not good. So even though his sugar sounds like it's low, and he's keeping his average low, any sort of really massive spike is not good for the body. It does lead to it is taxing on the pancreas. So it's not ideal is the point.

That said, if it's literally once a month, and it's just once, and his blood sugar is good the rest of the time, I personally wouldn't be as concerned about it. But the question is, is it really just once a month? Not to say that I don't believe you, but I'm just saying the frequency is probably important there. And something he could do, so I know he doesn't want to take drugs or pharmaceuticals. He might be taking berberine. If not, I would suggest it either way, because it's great for blood sugar control. There's so many trials that actually compare berberine to metformin, which is that pharmaceutical that helps manage blood sugar levels.

Melanie Avalon
And they find it to be pretty equal in their effectiveness. And it's all natural. And it only has really been like has beneficial effects. In addition to blood sugar control, it's great for cholesterol. It can have a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. It even stimulates AMPK, which is an anti-aging longevity pathway in the body.

I love berberine. I take it every day. You could take it in the fastest state. You can take it before meals. I have my berberine, which I made to be the best on the market. And I've tested it with CGMs, which I want to come back to. So I would highly recommend that he get some berberine. So if he goes to avlonx.us and checks out my berberine there, you can use the coupon code IF Podcast to get a discount on that. Speaking of CGMs, oh, actually other things he could do to help with these spikes when he's experiencing them. So say he just wants to do it, he's going to have these treats. There's a lot you can do to help mitigate that blood sugar spike. So take the berberine before the meal, taking apple cider vinegar before the meal can help, adding cinnamon to the meal can help. And definitely, definitely, well, A, if you can like exercise before and then walk after, that also really helps. So anything that you can do to help mitigate that is really great.

And then I would also suggest getting, I mean, he knows that his, okay, I'm guessing maybe he's testing his blood sugar with like a glucometer. He might want to try a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor for two weeks. And that would give him a better picture of how his blood sugar is responding basically all the time to everything. And that might help help give a better picture. Although you say you know that his average is 120. So I don't know if that's just from him doing a glucometer all the time, or it might be from maybe he's already wearing a CGM. But if listeners are interested in a CGM, they can go to Nutrisense.com slash I have podcast. That's n-u-t-r-i-s-e-n-s-e.com slash I have podcast and use the code I have podcast. It should get you $30 off and one free month of nutritionist support.

So that was a lot of thoughts. Barry, do you have thoughts?

Barry Conrad
No, I think that you summed it up wonderfully. The thing that I only had a question about was exactly what you talked about as all which is, is this just an occasional? If it's a one-off, I don't think there's anything to worry about, but it sounds like it's not. What did you think about that, Mel?

Like the occasional treat? Like, you know, because once in a while, it's not a concern, I don't think. To me, anyway.

Melanie Avalon
So she said he does it like once a month, right? You want to enjoy your life, you know, you want to do the things. And if it's literally once a month, and it's good the rest of time, I wouldn't worry about it. I just know it's a slippery slope for some people.

And once a month becomes once a week becomes, you know, more often, it's never good having that massive spike. But I think you have to take it into account with the cost benefit of the entirety of your life, you know, like you want to live a satisfying life. And it's awesome that he's addressing his blood sugar levels through diet. Like that's amazing. So kudos, bravo to him. And I would definitely say try, try the berberine, for sure.

Barry Conrad
Try the brethren!

Melanie Avalon
So Okidoki, shall we go on to our next question?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
So our next question comes from Susan, and this is from Facebook. And Susan says, I've reached a lull. I'm leveling out and I wonder what is good to jumpstart myself again, definitely for weight loss. I got down to a point and crept back up.

We have a big event in two weeks. So starting again strong today, I know that it's eating too early and too much. I hope, is what she says. So what are your thoughts for Susan?

Barry Conrad
Hey Susan, how's it going? Thank you for your question. First off, I know exactly how you feel and respect for, I think, being self-aware. Sometimes the hardest part is just admitting that and just being honest with ourselves and naming where we're at without sugarcoating it. So let's start there.

You've already won half the battle there by acknowledging that. That lull you're describing is totally normal. It's something that almost everyone who's been on a fasting or health or weight loss journey experiences and has experienced. You're going to have plateaus. You're going to feel like you're going backwards, forwards, stalling. You're cruising along, feeling great, maybe even dropping weight consistently. And then suddenly you hit this flat patch or worse, things can feel like they creep back up and like you've lost ground. But the truth is, it doesn't mean what you were doing isn't working anymore. It just means your body's adapted. So the human body, it's so good at keeping us alive and when we're doing something consistently like fasting or following a certain way of eating, our metabolism catches up on that. So it adapts. It's pretty clever. It adapts. It adjusts. And sometimes it slows things down to maintain a balance. And that's where you experience that sort of plateau situation. But you can shake things up without going too extreme as well or going to extremes. So since you mentioned eating too early and too much here, that's a good place to start.

OK, so if your eating window has been creeping earlier, just be intentional about pushing it back even maybe even by 30 minutes or an hour. Like you'd be surprised how much impact that small tweak could maybe make. And on the you said too much. So on the too much side, it's not it's not always about restriction. It's about maybe sorting out your portion sizes, recalibrating those, checking in on whether you're you're eating to nourish or to soothe or to distract or to reward. So really checking in about being mindful about you eating and what you're using there for too is is something that could be helpful. One of my personal go to resets like when I want to feel tighter and leaner or just to get the momentum is I keep my meals pretty simple. And Melanie will say the same thing, like I'm a bit of a creature of habit. And I think you are too. Like we like to eat a lot of the same things, lots of high protein. And I like to keep my meals super simple and protein forward for a few days. So think think lean meats, eggs, greens, healthy fats and maybe dial back to the carbs a little bit for a little bit and and stay away from anything that could make me make you blow it. You don't have to cut everything out. It's not about being extreme. Just reduce the food noise for a period and see how that if it affects you in any way. So the simpler you eat, the easier you can maybe listen to your body, sort of like an elimination diet, but not really.

Barry Conrad
But just just to see tweaking it, if that might help. Also, I reckon don't underestimate sleep, the basic sleep, hydration and keeping stress low stress is a part of life, but keeping stress low because all three of those things, they mess with like a hunger and insulin. So if you're trying to reset, treat those things like non-negotiables because they're like a foundational thing. So hydrate, hydrate, aim for for sleep.

Take a few minutes each day to do something that brings you joy to like switch off decompress whatever that looks like for you. And with this big event coming up in a couple of weeks, that's that's pretty good motivation. But don't let it stress you out because I know how that could be. You feel like this thing is looming, like I need to look a certain way for a certain outfit instead, use it as a focus point. I reckon like get consistent for you, not just for the event. You want to be you want it to be your lifestyle rather than just to live from event to event and let the event be a bonus and not necessarily the reason.

You know what I mean? And if your weight crept up a bit, don't sweat it. You know, your body remembers the scale keeps changing day to day anyway. It wants to just get back to a place I reckon where it feels good. So you just need to go out and gently not punish it. So you're starting pretty strong. You know, that's what matters most. So let the momentum do its thing. You got this. Now, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
That was so incredible and so comprehensive. And I agree with everything you said. Yeah, I like that you pointed out about how it's normal to plateau or have lulls, especially when, like you were saying, when you do lose weight, your metabolism does adjust to the new weight. And it's not because your metabolism is slowing down negatively like you harm your metabolism. It's just that when you weigh less, you literally require burning less calories to maintain your body. So it's just a natural thing.

So kind of like on the flip side, when you gain weight, you now have a higher resting metabolic rate. So something that does need to be accounted for with weight loss is that you might have a lower resting metabolic rate at a lower rate. One of the great things about fasting is people often find that it's protective of weight regain and can really help support that whole process. I always find this really interesting.

I feel like we get a lot of questions or we have throughout the years where people ask the question and then in the question, they give the answer. Like they already know the answer. It happens a lot. And it's kind of like they need to hear somebody else say it back to them.

Barry Conrad
they reassured, but you know, they already know. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so like she says she knows she's eating too early and too much a I don't I agree with Barry though that we don't want to make this about restriction so we don't I wouldn't even focus on you know that you're eating I think it's great like Barry said you have awareness of what the issues might be so now you have a lot of tools to address that and it isn't necessarily like Barry was saying it isn't necessarily meaning that you have to start you know eating way less I love the idea so the eating too early I feel like I'm just echoing back what you said but it's what I it's what I think if you've expanded your eating window and now it's not as tight of a windows it used to be you know can you just go back and tighten up the window again and see what that does I think people get they get overwhelmed or upset when they regain weight and so they feel like they have to do like all the things when maybe you can you know make a tweak here a tweak there and that can actually have a massive effect it's the it's the things we do consistently that really really affect us so tightening up your eating window and then again for eating too much so yes a you could just try eating less or b you could do a lot of fun hacks like Barry was saying these are actually some of the hacks I wrote down I didn't write down the one about eating simply but I agree so much about that one it works so well for me like I just love eating I love eating the food I eat and when you don't bring in a lot of variety to your meals you you don't tend to overeat as much especially when you're focusing on protein that's why bodybuilders you know they pretty it's not the only reason but it's a reason that bodybuilders will eat like two foods because it's harder to overeat when you're doing that but the thing is you really want to make sure that you're getting all your nutrients so you really want to make sure it's nutrient dense and things like that you can also try tweaks like so Barry suggested like lowering the carbs I guess we don't really know what she's eating normally so trying I don't know what her carb intake is like normally trying either a higher carb low fat approach or a low carb higher fat approach and I'm being very intentional in where I put the er versus the not er and the point of that is because I think if you do like a um a low fat approach and you want to see magic from it actually making it low fat is key so it wants you you want it to be low fat and then have higher carbs so like not adding and like and if you do it like in a whole foods type situation it's pretty easy to do so that that would basically look like just eating whole foods and not adding oils and fats to your meat or to your sorry to your meals and not eating like super fatty meat and that will pretty much bring you to a a low fat higher carb approach or on the flip side if you want to try low carb higher fat and the reason I say higher fat is because you don't necessarily have to eat all the fat on a low carb high fat approach you can go low carb and eat fatty foods but not like drown everything in butter to to tomorrow so I think eating in a changing around the macros is something to try doing what Barry said with you know trying to eat more simply even throwing in a few days where you do like quote like a PSMF type day like so a day basically where you eat just lean protein not even necessarily counting calories but having a day here and there those will be really stimulating metabolically stimulating for your body because they're so high protein and then they actually end up being a pretty big calorie deficit so so basically if you have a day where you eat you know just lots of like lean chicken this is something that Maria Emmerich talks about a lot a lot yeah I think there's a lot of a lot of things you can try I love the idea about starting strong and just be kind to yourself and supportive of yourself and just remember that this is what I used to tell myself in the past was if you so choose it could in theory only get better from here like you can choose to make every decision about the lifestyle choices you make and what you put in your body be beneficial going forward so in theory it could only go up from here you don't have to be on this on the swing what is it the seesaw

Barry Conrad
So good.

Melanie Avalon
All right.

Barry Conrad
Well, we hope that was helpful for you, Susan, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Susan and Sabrina, some alliteration there, let us know how it goes. And yeah, shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast? What was that word that you wanted to start using?

Barry Conrad
Ah, dude, take a station.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, what is it?

Barry Conrad
Shout out to Damon in the Facebook group he mentioned because I posted some sort of a photo and I said it was a digestation and then he said maybe you and Mel should use that as the word for the restaurant segment.

Melanie Avalon
Still don't know this word, though. What? Wait, you don't know it.

Barry Conrad
D-E-G-U, so, degustation. I mean, I'm so surprised that you don't know this word, because I feel like- Maybe it's Australian.

Really? Because I feel like it's like, it's a very male-coded thing. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
is the careful, appreciative tasting of various food focusing on the gustatory system that senses high culinary art and good company.

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm, but how we kind of use it like typically it's like the digger station is like Multi-course sort of experience kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that Merriam Webster, so that was Wikipedia, Merriam Webster says, the action or an instance of tasting, especially in a series of small portions. Yeah, I had.

Barry Conrad
And Mel, actually, one of the best digestations I've ever had in my life was in Monterey, California a couple of years ago. It was so good.

I have to find the photos and send them to you. It was amazing. A place called Coastal Kitchen, on the water, incredible wine, incredible food. Like, yes, small portions, but by the time you're done, you're pretty satisfied because there's a lot of them.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, okay, so it's like a yeah, it's like a thing it's like a digestation menu is a tasting menu Oh, it's a tasting menu. How do I not know?

Barry Conrad
this word. That's what I mean. I was like, I thought you'd be like, oh yeah, take a session.

Melanie Avalon
because I don't like tasting many.

Barry Conrad
That's actually true. Listen as Mel, you've said this before on the podcast, like, I don't like set menus or like, you know, you'd like to be able to choose.

Melanie Avalon
I would like, okay, there is a Degas station that I would like if it was a Degas station and it was just different meats.

Barry Conrad
Okay, that tracks for sure.

Melanie Avalon
So shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast, which may or may not include a devastation, but will and spirit?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready, especially after this wisdom teeth situation. Like I'm feeling even more into the segment today.

Perfect. Okay. I wonder if there's a good, I wonder if there's a degustation specialty place in Atlanta that you could check out to experience it.

Melanie Avalon
Well, if it's just a tasting menu. Okay.

Barry Conrad
Okay, no, it's, I feel like you're making it seem like

Melanie Avalon
If it's a synonym for tasting menu, that is a thing.

Barry Conrad
No.

Melanie Avalon
It's got to be more special than that. I'm going to see it now, though. I'm going to go somewhere and it's going to be like, Degas Station, written really big.

Barry Conrad
Does your sister know about this word? You should ask her.

Melanie Avalon
I'm going to ask her. Oh, also I'm supposed to tell you hi from her. She says hi.

Barry Conrad
Uh, hey, Danny.

Melanie Avalon
She said before we started recording.

Barry Conrad
I call, listen, this is not very interesting, but I call Melanie sister Danny, and Melanie calls her Danielle, like very, you know, full word.

Melanie Avalon
I'm the only person who calls her Danielle. Everybody else calls her Danny.

She self-identifies as Danny, but I've never called her Danny like my entire life, so I can't start now. It's too, that ship has sailed.

Barry Conrad
with the Digistation Tasty Mini.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's all gone. Okay, so in keeping up with the spirit of my Disney World restaurants, I'm actually going away from Epcot this time. And I sent you the restaurant. This year, 2025, Disney World was awarded two restaurants with Michelin stars. Wow. Yep. And there's only 31 Michelin starred restaurants in Florida, I think. And two of them are at Disney World.

One of them is actually a Degas station restaurant. Come to think of it, I think. Victoria and Albert's, maybe we'll do that sometime. I want to do that one, but the mini is not really. I don't think the mini is online. So the other one though, the God of Michelin star is this restaurant at the Four Seasons Orlando at Disney World. And it's called Coppa.

Barry Conrad
Love the four seasons.

Melanie Avalon
I love the Four Seasons as well. Actually, I have a Four Seasons gift card that I've not used. Maybe we need to go to Disney World and go here and use it.

Barry Conrad
I'm about it, I'm down for that.

Melanie Avalon
want to. I've been saving it. I've been saving it for something and this is it, I guess. I actually have not looked at the menu yet. Actually, I literally forgot that I had it because it's in the Apple Wallet. I have so many tickets in there for theater and it's way at the bottom. I forgot about it.

This restaurant is called Kappa. I know nothing about it. I'm looking at it now. It looks cool.

Barry Conrad
I'm pulling it up right now, it looks pretty, I'm looking at the dinner menu, clicking in. Yeah, it's got already, it's already a hit with me because look at that.

Melanie Avalon
what is the first oh my goodness gracious i didn't even i'm experiencing this in real life the first thing on the menu is oysters the first two things on the menu if you read horizontally

Barry Conrad
Happy about that.

Melanie Avalon
It says, indulge in our Michelin star rooftop steakhouse and bar, boasting the best of Spanish influence cuisine in a romantic setting. Reserve now.

Okay. I'm sold. Crudos. What are you going to get for your starter?

Your crudos. I don't speak Spanish. What does crudos mean?

Barry Conrad
I'm just guessing that it's like small things or like starter, but I could be wrong.

Melanie Avalon
It means raw. Oh, there you go.

Wait, no. A dish, that's one thing. A dish of sliced, seasoned, uncooked seafood. Okay. Uncooked fish or seafood, which equals sea creatures with shells. Okay. So what are you getting?

Barry Conrad
You know what, this is, listeners, when you, hopefully looking this up, looking up this with us as well, it looks amazing. I'm going to actually go for all of those raw items.

I'm going to go for the.

Melanie Avalon
Do you see what they have? They have the caviar that we talked about.

So on the Mindblown podcast, we did an episode on the most expensive foods in the world. And we talked about the Royal Beluga caviar.

Really? Uh-huh, it's like the most expensive caviar. They have it.

Barry Conrad
far out. Okay, we'll see. Well, that's definitely happening. So definitely, it's the, how do you say it, the Trojan Royal Beluga caviar that's happening during the attune. I hope this is being sponsored by the restaurant. Yeah. Imagine that. I wonder what it tastes like too, like, and how much you get of it, like how, how big a serving.

Melanie Avalon
This is what we learned about it. So I think they, there's only one place in the U S that has this caviar. And it's because I think it got, I hope I'm not telling this wrong. I feel like it got like import, you could band import it. You couldn't import it here anymore, but there was this one farm guy that had it already. So he got like grandfathered in. So like he has it and that's why it's so expensive. I hope that was not the wrong story.

I think that was the story that was the case with something that was expensive and I'm pretty sure it was this.

Barry Conrad
It's a pretty good thing to have though. I imagine that like, yeah, it's, I've got it. You got to come through me like this. I can set the price, you know, it's good.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, you're really getting everything? I just want the shrimp cocktail.

Barry Conrad
No, I knew you were going to get that. I'm going to get everything.

Because the oysters, to me, if you actually had oysters, Melanie, you'll realize that they're actually not that filling. They're just delicious, so they don't really... Are you getting both oysters? Because there's two. Yeah, so I'm getting the mediskada, which is oysters, crab salad,

Melanie Avalon
That's like comes with everything.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, cocktail shrimp tuna crudo, so that's like a mixed situation.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so you could get that.

Barry Conrad
And the other side, then the oysters are like extras, like oysters, cocktail sauce, megan net. And then the shrimp cocktail, which is the Camaron cocktailero, the attuncrudo, which is tuna caviar. Oh man, this looks amazing.

Half dried grapes, agio blanco. And then of course, Melanie, the caviar that you talked about before, the Royal Beluga.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah, I think I understand the menu better. So like the Mariscotta includes the other three things so you can try all of them.

And then there's the caviar section is what it looks like. Okay, I'll just get an extra shrimp cocktail and I'll taste the caviar, please.

Barry Conrad
Okay, sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, now we're on to more words we don't know. Para picar. Yeah, do you know what that means?

Barry Conrad
I don't, but let me look it up actually when I find out. It means to eat, to nibble on. Oh, that's cool.

Melanie Avalon
for nibbling to snack on. How adorable. Tapas. Okay.

Barry Conrad
So it's still pretty small, we're still in the small part of the meal, not too big yet.

Melanie Avalon
What are you going to get from here? From the tapas.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get some bread, which is the panerstico. I'm going to get some croquettas, because I like croquettas. That's jamo and serrano, bichamo, onion, subice. I'm definitely going to get the serdó, which is beer, brine, pork belly. Love pork belly. Do you like pork belly well? And then, oh, man, there's just too many things. There's also, I'm not going to do the don't love dates. I'm not going to do the medjool dates. I'll do the gambas, which is shrimp, egg, yolk, chili, celery root chips. So that's what I'm getting.

I'm going to get the panerstico, croquettas, serdó, and the gambas. What about you, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I might skip this course. You get to skip it. Well, you got four things, so I do like pork belly, but I don't like beer brined pork belly.

Barry Conrad
And I don't think that they can put the beer brine on the side. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
What is the shrimp egg yolk? What is that? Shrimp egg yolk, chili, agambas? You were getting that, right?

Barry Conrad
It's celery root chips. So okay, so but what is the year gummus? I wonder...

Melanie Avalon
I'll get that no chili or on the side and the root chips on the side, basically just the shrimp and the egg yolk. So I get another course of shrimp. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Again, this is a good menu by the way, good find, I'm loving the choices so far.

Melanie Avalon
Now we're still in the world of small. It's a small world. After all, small plates. Rastione.

Barry Conrad
Gracionias, what do you what do you reckon you want from the smell? What's looking good?

Melanie Avalon
I'm figuring out what raciones means. It means larger portions of food typically meant to be shared. Oh, okay, oh my goodness, I got the order now. I can't believe I didn't know this.

Tapas are small individual bites, that's what we did. Then there's para picar, which we also did, which is small snacks to nibble, which can include tapas or smaller items. And then there's raciones, which is this, which is larger share plate. Think of a full dish of something. Oh, it's like a full dish that you share. So, but it's still like a small plate it says, so that's confusing. Okay, oh, there's something here I like. Roasted bone marrow, the tuetano.

Barry Conrad
I wonder, have you heard that before?

Melanie Avalon
But it comes with Chistora gratin and an oak-toasted pan. So yeah, I'll go for that. Oh wait, have you had octopus before?

Barry Conrad
Hell yeah, I love octopus. Love it.

Melanie Avalon
It's not fried, right? You've never had octopus. Are you looking down at me for my lack of what?

Barry Conrad
Okay, Melanie, have you never had octopus before?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I have a distinct memory of being somewhere at a restaurant and my parents, and there were tiny little octopuses. I'm pretty sure the plural of octopuses is octopuses.

There were tiny little octopuses.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Well, to answer your question, you can fry them, but they're often not fried. Sometimes they're just cured or grilled. They're really delicious.

Melanie Avalon
I'm kidding. You know, I'm feeling in my body viscerally right now, you know, and you know me, I love my meat and seafood, and the feeling I get about oysters, I'm like getting that feeling about these octopuses.

Barry Conrad
Oh, no, we're going to change this. We're going to experiment with octopus, octopi.

Melanie Avalon
I'm checking the plural form. I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Hold on, octopuses. What is the plural form? The plural of octopus is octopuses. Really? Uh-huh.

Barry Conrad
It doesn't sound right, does it, like octopuses?

Melanie Avalon
It's the most widely accepted and grammatically correct English plural. People often say octopi, but it's technically incorrect.

And it's because octopus is from Greek, not Latin. So using a Latin plural form doesn't apply.

Barry Conrad
Okay.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting so you're getting are you getting octopus is

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm getting the, the Polpo, it's this paprika marinade octopuses and the mojo verde. It's just one octopus though, but yeah, this is normal.

Is it like one little small octopus? Is it like, yeah, hopefully not. It might be a big octopus. It could be. And they're also getting patatas bravas because I actually, Mel, fun fact, I make these, my own version of these crispy potatoes and they're really good.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Amazing. You'll have to compare it to your recipe.

Barry Conrad
Would you taste it though, or would you be like, I'll look at them and see if I.

Melanie Avalon
I will look at them.

Barry Conrad
I think I'm going to try the, I'm curious about your choice to a tunnel because I've never had roasted bone marrow. So yeah, I'll have those three.

Melanie Avalon
You've never had roasted bone marrow.

Barry Conrad
I feel like you're looking down on me.

Melanie Avalon
I know that was my, my getting back at you. No, but here's the thing. I feel like it's much more common to have bone marrow than octopuses.

Barry Conrad
No way! What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yes way, do they not eat bone marrow in Australia?

Barry Conrad
In Australia, pretty much every restaurant, like seafood salad, octopus salad, octopus in the salad bar, it's like a thing.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, we don't. But bone marrow is on a lot of a lot of restaurants here, not like a ton, but it is a common, like it's not surprising to see it on a menu. If you're at a nice restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Okay, well, so to answer your question, no, I mean, I have had bone marrow in a bone, like, you know, but not a roaster. I don't know. What does it look like? Roasted bone marrow.

Melanie Avalon
You probably have roasted them i mean how else. How have you had it cooked.

Barry Conrad
It's more like when there's marrow inside a bone, you suck it out. That's what I mean. Is that wrong?

Melanie Avalon
You're talking about like, you're talking about like you're eating like, like a chicken carcass and there's like marrow inside of it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, or like a lamb shank and you suck it up.

Melanie Avalon
Have you had it as a dish?

Barry Conrad
No, I've never had bone marrow as a dish. So good. Really?

Melanie Avalon
It's it's okay. It's one of those foods that does not taste like what you think it's gonna taste like

Barry Conrad
Do you know what else?

Melanie Avalon
Octopuses.

Barry Conrad
Exactly. I was going to say it's one of those foods that it tastes like you don't think it's going to taste in a good way. So that's why you should give it a chance and oysters.

Melanie Avalon
I'm just being upfront about the my premonition bone marrow because it sounds, I don't know, it sounds like not approachable, like something funky, like an or it sounds like an organ meat or something. No, no, no.

It is just this most delicious tasting fat ever. It's like, oh, like the angels like sing.

Barry Conrad
Sounds good, sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon
So, okay, now we are still in the world of smallness. We're at the Spanish charcuterie and cheeses. Oh, this is easy. I know exactly what I want here.

This is so easy. What are you gonna get? The acorn-fed black hoof, jamon, Iberico, the jamon, I'm probably betraying this, no pun intended, jamon de belata, belata. Iberico acorn-fed, it's like prosciutto. It's so good. It's probably not prosciutto. I'm probably using the wrong words, but it's so, yeah, that.

Barry Conrad
I'm getting all three.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, we ordered the whole new name.

Barry Conrad
A confetti black hoof jamon eberico and then also the other one is the chef's selection of cured meats which is has to happen and then the next one down is the chef's selection of artisan cheeses so I've got to experience the whole thing I can't just have the one thing.

Melanie Avalon
So I thought my gift card was going to cover this. I'm where we might be like reaching the limits.

Oh my goodness. I, I'm glad you're getting though the artists and cured meets because I'm curious, I would try those as well for sure.

Barry Conrad
There also might not be the quantity might not be massive because if it's Spanish style, it's probably not massive.

Melanie Avalon
Salads, we're still in the world of small. I'm passing on salads. Do you want a salad?

Barry Conrad
The one that sticks out to me would probably be the, I love tomatoes, so probably something fresh like the halon tomatoes, cucumbers, smoked garlic vinegar, and black sea salt, because it's just fresh. Have one of those on the table, thanks.

It sounds very fresh.

Melanie Avalon
I'm having flashbacks to... I've told this story before. We went to Paris with my family and my dad ordered the tomato salad at one point. It was literally just a tomato. That was it. I think it was a tomato with some cilantro. My family was laughing about it for eons.

Now we are to the grill. Long time coming. I'm excited to be here. They have a Wagyu flight. That's cool. You get to try five ounces of American, five ounces of Australian, and three ounces of Japanese. It was made for us. Oh my goodness. We have to get that. I don't even like the super fatty meat, but we can't not. That must be received by the table.

Barry Conrad
I have an idea. What is your idea? How about we get that for the table and then we get our own selection of another choice? Because I feel like we should sample.

Melanie Avalon
that could be dessert. It's not dessert. Okay. For the table. Okay. And then what, what are you going to have for your main

Barry Conrad
Okay, looking at now, I'm going to go for the grass fed lamb rack. I just, I'm in the mood for lamb.

Let's do it. Comes with pumpkin, pepita, and cocoa crust. It's Fletcher, New Zealand. So that's, yes, time is delicious.

Melanie Avalon
I really like that they say where every steak comes from. I don't think I've seen this on a menu before.

So every single steak, they put the town it's from. Like one is from like Creekstone, Kansas. One's from Jackman, Fort Davis, Texas, et cetera. So they have my favorite kind of steak here. So that's what I'm getting. Do you know what that is? Oh wait, how are you gonna have your lamb cooked?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go medium rare vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Solid.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because I feel like with lamb, I don't go as rare with lamb as I do with beef. Beef, I can go pretty rare.

Melanie Avalon
Do you want to know a fun fact about Wagyu that I recently shared on a mind blown podcast episode? Tell me.

So you know how they say it melts in your mouth. So Wagyu actually melts in your mouth because the fat composition of it is different from normal steaks. It's higher in monounsaturated fat and it has a melting point that is lower than our body temperature, sorry, yes, lower than our body temperature. So when you have Wagyu steak, it literally melts in your mouth.

Barry Conrad
That's amazing. I never knew that.

Melanie Avalon
That's why I'm here. Fun facts. Okay, so do you know what my favorite cut is?

Barry Conrad
Is it where is it where you know.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no, too fatty.

Barry Conrad
OK, no, it's the filet.

Melanie Avalon
Mmm, which one which one there's there's two

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go for the, is it the prime filet?

Melanie Avalon
The options are prime fillet or prime bone end fillet.

Barry Conrad
I think the prime fillet.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, bone in. I love, I'm a carnivore. How did you not, if you thought about it longer, you might have.

Barry Conrad
Yeah maybe I should have thought about but also I didn't picture you you know picking up the bone because it's not your thing you know you would like cover you say to people look away I don't I can't eat the bones or

Melanie Avalon
I wouldn't tell people to look away, I would just cover my mouth. That's what I mean.

Yes, no, bone and fillet, you get all that extra flavor from the bone. Whenever we had it, when I was working in fine dining, when we would have a bone and fillet, I would sell that. I would sell so many bone and fillets. Really? Yes, because I passionately believe what I say about them, which is that it's like the best of all the worlds. You get the really lean, tender cut because the fillet is essentially maybe the leanest cut and also the most tender, best of both worlds. And then you get all the flavor from the bone as well. So good.

Barry Conrad
Delicious. I really am craving... Do what? You're craving what? Meat. Now. Oh. Sorry, what were you saying? And you also get the what? You also get the...

Melanie Avalon
I was just gonna say that like, if you're like, wait, how is there still an entree section? I'm confused. I thought we were done. Wait, now there's an entree section. Oh, it's like non-stakes.

Barry Conrad
Mm hmm. This is going to be a very long dinner in a good way.

Melanie Avalon
Do you want any of the entrees from the entree section?

Barry Conrad
Guess what I'm gonna get, see if you can guess it.

Melanie Avalon
Is it one of the paleos? Which one? De marascos. Yes. Si, I know you well.

Barry Conrad
Paella dei Marescos. It's bomber rice, mussels, calamari, head on shrimp, baby scallops, and saffron. That sounds like a, that sounds amazing, actually.

Melanie Avalon
Got the saffron. See, I'm seeing all the most expensive ingredients in the world on this list. The Iberico ham, the saffron, the Wagyu, the Beluga caviar. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Melanie, guess what? I don't think that the gift card's gonna get past the first section of this menu.

Melanie Avalon
It is a very big gift card.

Barry Conrad
Okay.

Melanie Avalon
Hmm, I know I don't think so, but it'll it'll help. It'll help

Barry Conrad
Okay, are you going to get anything from the intro section?

Melanie Avalon
I think I would, oh, because there's additions. I might get, hmm, let me look. No, I think I'm good.

Additions? Additions. I think I would like to add a lobster tail. Same. You can also add bone marrow. If you really like it, you could get some more.

Barry Conrad
sources I don't I feel like you're gonna pass on the sources but I'm asking anyway

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna get a sauce?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get the cap of steaks for us. That sounds delicious on the side.

Melanie Avalon
If I, it's Berenesa, Berenese, but written in Spanish. That's what I would get if I was eating more sauces. I love Berenese.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what about vegetables?

Melanie Avalon
We can get some broccolini. How about you?

Barry Conrad
Frockoline is good to have on the table. I also do like the idea of the Calabaza, the roasted winter squash. I don't have a lot of squash normally. That sounds quite nice.

Melanie Avalon
I like what they say at the end, they say our mindfulness and contribution to sustainability are connected in our efforts to make a difference by sourcing locally and seasonally when available, only cage free eggs, sustainably certified fish and reducing waste to minimize while minimizing environmental impact.

Barry Conrad
I love that. That's great.

Melanie Avalon
Do they have the dessert menu?

Barry Conrad
I think you have to go back to the thing. Is there one? There is.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Oh my goodness. Okay. Are you gonna do, are you gonna do the tasting flight of drinks?

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, that's happening for sure. Oh, there's four different ones though. Oh, they're all different. Okay, I'm going to get the tequila tasting flight for sure, which is Sin Cora, Ana Gia, Casa, Dragana, Yovan, Don Yulio, and Petron Grand Platinum for sure, the tequila, and then I'm going to get the... You know what?

Because in South Africa, we drink a lot of brandy, so I think I'm going to try the Taurus brandy. 10 year, 15 year, 20 year, Jamie one. So those two... No, I'm going to be having a happy, relaxed, vibey time.

Melanie Avalon
I'll just get another, I'll get more wine.

Barry Conrad
What about the dulce's, the sweet treats?

Melanie Avalon
This is where I'm going to bring, okay, so we've tried so many things for dessert. I'm going to get another round of whatever I liked the most.

Barry Conrad
Savor, you mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I don't know what that's going to be or am I or am I try like another steak cut But something savory. There's been so many options.

This this actually might be this might be one of my favorite menus that we've looked at

Barry Conrad
Honestly, it's pretty extensive and not just for filler. Like it's all looks really good and really detailed. So I'm about that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Let me guess. You're going to get... Oh, they... No, wait, hold on. I keep looking.

Are you going to get the... What is the... Oh, chocolate churros. I don't like... Even when I ate sweets, I never really liked churros. Do you?

Barry Conrad
I mean, it's pretty hit and miss, like if it's really fresh and like, if they're not too hard, like I'll have it, but it's definitely not like, or like, let me get it, you know, like, that's my last thing that I get, you know.

Melanie Avalon
So what would you get?

Barry Conrad
I would probably because there's no chocolate cake which is my favorite or red velvet cake or something.

Melanie Avalon
Are you going to get the delica exotica?

Barry Conrad
Yes. Delica Exotica, so it's 33% opal is white chocolate, which I don't, I don't love white chocolate, but I'm going to go for that because it's the only chocolate cake with coconut sorbet and mango passion center, which sounds pretty good.

Awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Well, we actually do have to do this because it's at Disney World, it's a Michelin star and I have the gift card. So we actually have to.

Barry Conrad
We're going. We'll just have the reservation from 6 to 8.30 because there's a lot to get through, a lot of food.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, what are their hours? They're open 6 to 10. There's a live Spanish guitarist on Wednesdays and Saturdays from 6 to 9. We have to go on a Wednesday or a Saturday.

Barry Conrad
Saturday for sure more vibey

Melanie Avalon
We have to go on a Saturday. It sounds good. Yay, well that was fun.

Barry Conrad
That was really fun.

Melanie Avalon
Good find. Thank you. I saw I was reading the article about the Michelin stars and I was like, Oh my goodness, this is perfect. Okay. Oh, and I didn't even tell the reason the purpose of that section, which was because fasting. It's not just about the fasting.

It's also about the eating and enjoying the food and nourishing your body and so many of the benefits of fasting actually happen from the eating. So, all right. I think that's all the things if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show. They can directly email questions at I have podcast.com or they can go to I have podcast.com. They can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things the show notes out the show notes will be at I have podcast.com slash episode for 32. Anything from you, Barry, before we go.

Barry Conrad
No, thanks so much for tuning in everyone and we'll catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
I will talk to you next week. Bye.

See you. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Jun 02

Episode 424 – Does Breakfast Increase Hunger, Tips For Fasting At Work, Barry’s New Skincare Line, Dopamine And Addiction, Social Fasting Hacks, And More!

⁠Six Weeks of Morning Fasting Causes Little Adaptation of Metabolic or Appetite Responses to Feeding in Adults with Obesity

Welcome to Episode 424 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Featured Restaurant: ⁠The Tam O' Shanter ⁠

Book: ⁠Good Stress

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If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 423 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 423 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. And Barry, congratulations on successfully moving apartments.

Barry Conrad
Hey, everyone. Hey, Mel. Yes, I moved places yesterday. It was over the last couple of days. And I was saying before, I feel so tired.

I don't get why because, like, when I go to the gym, for example, like, where I feel like I'm pushing a whole lot of weight, I definitely don't feel like this afterwards. Like, Mel, is it like an emotional weight? Like, what's the why am I so exhausted? I don't get it.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting you say that I have the exact same thought whenever I move. I think about what you just said. I'm like, this isn't like, yes, I'm moving a lot. Yes, I'm picking things up, but it's not, you know, it's not climbing Mount Everest and it's not like a workout at the gym. Well, it is a little bit, I think it's, I think it's the emotional part. I really do.

Like, it's just the mental and the psychological aspect of it. And you have so much that you have to get accomplished, like by a deadline, you have to get all your stuff from point A to point B. It's a moment of uncertainty. And we know our brains don't like uncertainty. They register that as a threat. So it's like you're in a stress threat state while also physically moving a lot of stuff, so very true.

Barry Conrad
training. It's training and I feel like like you're right. I think processing all of that at the same time and also kind of maybe grieving in a way like that sounds deep, but you've been in a place for a while. It's like, I'm used to this.

I'm used to that. Now I'm saying goodbye to it really quickly. While the movers are here, packing things up and it's kind of like a low key traumatic kind of experience and also just annoying because moving sucks. But it's also exciting.

Melanie Avalon
I'm pretty sure it's high on the list of top 10 most stressful life events. I'm pretty sure. Let's see. Okay. Oh, maybe not. I thought it was higher up.

Okay. I could have sworn moving was on the list. What's the top 10? Okay. Yeah. This is the official list. It's number one. This is the Holmes Ray stress scale first developed in 1967 and it's a scale of life stressors. What do you think number one is?

Barry Conrad
Your house burning down, is that on there? Like you're losing your home?

Melanie Avalon
No, actually, I'm just confused because I could have sworn moving was like way up there.

Barry Conrad
What about surgeons performing really intense operations? That's a pretty high stress environment.

Melanie Avalon
The closest to that is number six, which is not the same thing, but it's major. Well, yeah, major personal injury or illness is number six.

What's number one? I'm curious. Number one. Number nine is funny. So number one is death of a spouse.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, for sure. That's definitely the number one. I should have said that straight away, losing somebody that you love.

Melanie Avalon
Do you want to guess number two and three because they're similar and they involve relationships?

Barry Conrad
Okay, divorce.

Melanie Avalon
Yes that's number two.

Barry Conrad
And number three, breakups, well, that's the same thing.

Melanie Avalon
No, yeah, similar. What's a breakup where you're breaking up but you're still together? Separation. Yes, marital separation, number three.

Barry Conrad
Wow, okay.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so relationships cause a lot of stress is my takeaway. The top three all involve the top three all involve the significant other. I shouldn't laugh about the death one.

Barry Conrad
So you're running from all things relationships based on this, this little thing, this survey.

Melanie Avalon
I'm just saying and oh wait, we'll wait to get to number nine. Should I tell you what number nine was?

Tell me. Number nine is marital reconciliation. Really? Yeah. You just can't win. You just cannot win. Oh man. For, unless you want to guess any of the other ones.

Barry Conrad
No, it's all right, it's all right.

Melanie Avalon
So, four is being incarcerated. Wow. Interesting, though, that it's more stressful to get divorced than to be put in jail.

Barry Conrad
There's reason to laugh, but it's just funny. It's just that we're not laughing at anyone.

Melanie Avalon
Humor helps us get through the stress of life, I think. Humor and kindness.

Number five is death of a close family member. Yeah, that's sad and stressful. Six was the injury and illness. Oh, seven. What? Seven, marriage. Oh, my God.

Barry Conrad
Oh my god, it's all relationships.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing. Number eight, being fired or laid off from work. And 10 is retirement.

So I was wrong, moving is not on there, but I would put it on there. My scale, well, my scale, I can take off half of those. So I'll, what would you make your scale? What would your top three be on your scale?

Barry Conrad
Oh my God. I think, okay, losing a spouse, for sure. I would say losing a spouse, my second guess was going to be losing a family member. And then the third, I would say maybe divorce, because I think that's pretty traumatic, because it's stressful based on what I know of friends who have had divorces and stuff.

But definitely family would be way up there for me, losing family.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like for my skill, I need to make like a relationship scale and then a non-relationship skill because then I can do a more accurate skill for my life because if I'm not getting married that gets rid of half of these. So I would say death of a family member and then I think I think I would say what you said like your house burning down, that would be horrible.

And then for me, I think moving. Actually being put in jail would be a lot to deal with.

Barry Conrad
of course it would be but also Mel I was I listened to that episode of the the mind-blowing podcast you know the one you were saying about the decluttering I listened to that like while preparing for like packing things up so I had it on like and I was packing stuff up while listening to you talk and something that you said stuck with me it was the the 80-20 rule like the Pareto principle like how we like in context of belongings how we use 20% of our things 80% of the time I really think that's true

Melanie Avalon
I, I mean, looking around, I mean, it might be like for me, I feel like I use like 10% of my stuff, 90% of the time, honestly.

Barry Conrad
It's because like the same rotation of clothes, shoes, like gadgets, whatever it is, like, I feel like whatever you pack with you to go on trips and stuff, that's kind of like what you use most of the time. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think we talked about this last week when you moved all your stuff. Did you get rid of stuff?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I did. I sold stuff. I actually sold like tables, sold like my bed and the bed frame and a coffee machine. Yeah, I actually did pretty good in like a week. I sold all that stuff. So I did it.

Melanie Avalon
Did you get rid of anything that you were inspired to get rid of by listening to that episode?

Barry Conrad
Actually, yeah, because now I have boxes of stuff that I even like I thought that I needed and I'm going to get rid of that as well now. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Nice.

Barry Conrad
Minimalist life.

Melanie Avalon
Did fasting help with your move?

Barry Conrad
It actually did. I made sure I didn't eat or break my fastened or I finished packing everything. I just got into this zone, like this intense zone and just went under a packing rampage. And then at the very end, after that mental clarity and exertion, had a whole lot of food, wine chilled out.

It was the best.

Melanie Avalon
That was always how I approached moving, I would, you know, if I had multiple days, I would, I would not let myself, I would not eat until I was like done with that day's, you know, work of moving stuff.

Barry Conrad
When you when you get into your new place, for example, do you wait like because you're so tired like to get in there, the boxes and stuff are still there and you chill first, or do you just straight away get it all unpacked and then chill?

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So listeners, I'm glad you brought this up because you said you unpacked everything.

It takes me like three weeks to... I'm not kidding. When you said like you unpacked everything that day, I was like... I did. Everything? Yeah, because there's so many boxes and so much stuff. And then I like to, I feel so... Literally, I get dopamine hits just thinking about it. I get so excited to unpack the stuff and like put it in its proper place. Oh, it feels so good. Feels so good. So I savor it and I do it over a couple weeks. Yes, weeks.

Barry Conrad
but also i don't know if i believe that because you know i also heard you say you know you have the thing where you put you throw something away get rid of something like one thing a day and you have a stickers and stuff so how much stuff do you have.

Melanie Avalon
I don't have, I'm like a normal apartment.

Barry Conrad
but you just want to take your time unpacking it. I get it. I get what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
And and okay, okay, here's the other thing. Here is the other thing. I've slowly been like when we moved out of our childhood ish house. A couple years ago, we had to go through everything. That was a lot.

And I kept a lot of stuff from that like I got rid of a ton of stuff but I kept a lot of stuff. And I have a storage unit here. So I have I basically, I am proud to say that I everything from my life that I have kept I now have with me, like in my apartment or my or my storage unit, rather than it being like all different places like there at one point. And so at one point, I had stuff in my childhood home, I had stuff in a storage unit in LA, I was like living here, like I was like, oh my gosh, like I don't everything's not in one place. But I can say now confidently that everything is either in my apartment or in a storage unit. And it's not that much. I don't think

Barry Conrad
That's pretty impressive to have everything that I get I get that feeling of disarray cuz I I'm in that previous position right now where I have some in like an older house still in boxes which I need to I need to consolidate that for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's yeah, it's a lot so

Barry Conrad
Anyway, what about you, other than my moving debacles?

Melanie Avalon
This, this will have happened quite a while ago, but finally I've mentioned it, I think every single episode, the past few episodes. So apologies for that.

But I'm finally launching my EMF blocking product line on Friday, this hour Friday. Awesome. So I'm very excited about that.

This will be my first non supplement physical product, just as a brief recap for listeners, EMFs, we are way overexposed to them today. We were not exposed to them in this way in the past. And I actually just re interviewed our blank, my business partner, and revisited all the science of it. And it does not look good for how they affect our health.

And I didn't know this. I didn't know EMF sensitivity is actually a medical diagnosis. Like there's codes for it. Really? Yeah. I did not know that. That's exciting. It's exciting to know that the medical community is taking it seriously.

They are classified by the IARC as a group to be carcinogen and you can reduce your exposure by not using wifi. If you can not using Bluetooth as much as you can, not holding your phone up to your head, which the iPhone actually suggests that you use speakerphone in the legal section of the iPhone. And so I have created EMF free headphones because even normal headphones can conduct their digital so they can conduct EMFs into your brain. So mine are completely free of that. So listeners, they will be out by the time this comes out. So you can go to Avalon X EMF dot us and use the code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off.

And that code will also work for 10% off site wide because what happens when you go to that, that website, it's my website, but then you'll be directed to my partner shield your body, their website. And so that code will work on my products and all of their products as well. And if listeners would like to get all the updates on those products and future launches and sales and specials and all the things, you can go to Melanie Avalon.com slash EMF email list. Okay. Yes, I'm excited.

Barry Conrad
Congratulations, Melanie. That's amazing.

That's honestly so incredible. And the fact that I love that you said it was like a medical diagnosis and you you're kind of ahead of the curve because I haven't heard of anyone else doing this in this way. So that's amazing. That's awesome. Seriously.

Melanie Avalon
Well, thank you so much. And also shout out to my partner, our blank is his name. And he owns shield your body. They also make emf blocking products. And he's just so knowledgeable on this topic. I really respect him.

And he's been incredible to work with creating the products together. So shout out to him. And thank you for the kind words means a lot coming from you.

Barry Conrad
Very exciting.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, shall we jump into some fasting related things for today?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump right on in.

Melanie Avalon
Let's do it. Also, wait, before we do that, really quick question. So are you, so when you sent me that message about being done and unpacked and everything in one day, which I'm still, I want a picture of your apartment. I just need to see this.

But in any case, I listened to that and I was like, like, is he gonna be okay to record? But look at you, you're here. Are you really tired? Are you good?

Barry Conrad
I'm actually fine like I'm good like my back is a little bit janky I think probably lifting stuff but that's fine that's just normal but I feel really good I had a really good sleep and I'm gonna hit the gym after the show I mean after we record so I feel good.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So do you have a study to start us off with?

Barry Conrad
I do have a study to start us off with and the study I'm bringing today is called the influence of ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting on the change of body fat rate. This was done by Pu Yuan Yu from the College of Biological and Agricultural Engineering at Jilin University in China. I know it sounds like a pretty clinical title, but the findings are really, really exciting.

It's sort of about something a lot of us are already curious about, about how effective is IF alone and how does it stack up against keto and what happens when you combine the two. This was a 12-week randomized control trial, which is sort of like the gold standard when it comes to research. So they took 120 overweight or obese participants and they split them into four groups. So one stayed on their normal diet, aka the control group, one went full keto, one practiced intermittent fasting, and the last group did both keto and intermittent fasting together. So Mel, see if you can rank those four groups for me of who had the most change or none at all. Four being no change, one being the most change.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and it's checking. You said it's checking for I was going to ask you to say it again. The title is checking body fat, you said.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, to change your body fat rate, you know.

Melanie Avalon
So like how fast they lost weight.

Barry Conrad
or how much body fat they dropped.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, it's interesting because it's similar to the other study you found where it was fasting, exercise, or fasting plus exercise. The options are normal diet, fasting, keto, fasting and keto.

Barry Conrad
That's it, you got it.

Melanie Avalon
Did it talk about what they ate exactly?

Barry Conrad
They didn't talk about what foods they had, they just, yeah, they didn't specify that.

Melanie Avalon
Did it talk about the macros? Like actually, because sometimes the studies they'll say is keto and it's not keto.

I saw this in a study recently and it drove me up the wall. I was like, you can't know, like you can't do this study. It was like, they said it was keto, but it was like 30% carbs. Like that's not keto. That's not keto.

Barry Conrad
So that I sent you the link so you can check it out as well. But they, from what I can see, they're not, they controlled like the age and the sex and the starting weight, but they didn't, they're not talking about the exact diet or even how long people are fasting for, they just have 120 overweight or obese participants and split them into those four groups.

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna guess keto and fasting lost the most. And then, oh, this is so hard. And then fasting and then keto and then normal.

Barry Conrad
Almost.

Melanie Avalon
Other way around, then keto and then fasting? Yeah. Okay, so fasting and keto and then keto and then fasting and then normal.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so the control group pretty much nothing happened. The weight and body fat stayed the same.

The keto group saw really strong results, losing an average of 3.5 kgs and 4.8%. And 3.5 kgs and 4.8% body fat. Intimate fasting group saw 2.1 kgs down and 3.2% drop, but the combo of intermittent fasting and keto, they lost 4.7 kgs at a massive 6.3% of their body fat. So that's more than any of the other. And there wasn't just like, what's crazy, the group wasn't just better. Like statistically, it was more effective because the regression analysis showed that doing both together had the strongest impact on fat loss even after controlling their age and starting weight in sex. And they also said here that movement, the movement helped because the more participants exercised each week, love exercise, the more fat they lost. So exercise still played a massive role, especially with IF or keto or both.

And they also said, what I loved as well is like, they checked in with participants about how they were feeling afterwards, which I haven't really seen at other studies. So they, the people doing keto reported being hungrier at first, but that improved over time. Those doing IF said they felt hunger most on the fasting days, which kind of makes me think, are they doing ADF?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, maybe.

Barry Conrad
and that they were fine otherwise, and then the combo group found it the most challenging to stick to, but were the most satisfied with the results.

From what I can see as well, they also have a few caveats because the study did mention possible risks like hypoglycemia and ketoacidosis, especially for people with certain conditions, or if they're jumping in too quickly, too fast, so... I would say to listeners, if anyone's thinking about giving something like this a try, please talk to your healthcare provider first, because it's not a one-size-fits-all and we're not doctors. But I think my main thing, Mel, is, as we can see, both IF and keto have their own fat loss mojo, but combining them, it's maybe that's the cheat code. I don't know, like, for reducing body fat, because I've never tried keto, personally.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's a conversation, really. Oh, wow, I did not know that, never.

Barry Conrad
Have you like what's

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Did you ever, did you ever, that surprises me actually. Uh-huh. Did you ever like contemplate trying it?

Barry Conrad
I think you know what I actually think it was more my opinion of it became such a such a thing a few years ago like Keto. And I think my natural disposition is like to not jump on like a fatty kind of thing. It seemed more like diety and I was like I don't want to do that because everyone's talking about just like losing weight and it seemed more diety to me so I kind of veered away from it.

But I know that's not true. I've done paleo though, which is kind of close ish.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. What about you?

I did not realize that. Yeah, keto was my gateway into fasting because I first tried it before it was popular. I mean, Atkins, I did Atkins. Well, so I guess Atkins was popular, but I didn't do it during the heyday of Atkins, so I did it in a lull period. But that's when I discovered the science of ketosis and ketones and became obsessed with the science of everything. And then that's how I found fasting, was through that obsessive rabbit hole internet searching.

Barry Conrad
What's the difference between Atkins and Paleo?

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's very, it's very different. So, Atkins is more similar to keto. Atkins, you can eat anything as long as it's a certain amount of carbs. It's what made keto popular originally and there's no limitation though on like the quality of food, the type of food.

Like when I was doing it, I was eating literally this like carb quick stuff that was low carb and it was literally like the first ingredient is like gluten. There's something about diet quality. There's something about like whole foods. It's, they have all these Atkins bars and that are made with all these, you know, processed ingredients. So, it's keto without any, yeah, stipulation about that. Compared to paleo, which could be keto if you eat ketogenic foods on paleo, but paleo would be about, you know, whole foods based, no, well, so no dairy and a lot of paleo and Atkins is often high in dairy. No dairy, no grains, no legumes, you know, no sugar, processed foods, et cetera. It's interesting. We should make like a painting of like how they all overlap.

Barry Conrad
You know carnivore is carnivore quite similar to keto then because it's like protein and fat.

Melanie Avalon
Really? Carnivore is keto. So like carnivore is keto, but keto isn't necessarily carnivore.

What do you mean? So if you're keto, sorry, if you're carnivore, you are keto because you're not taking in any carbs. Keto was just about the carb number. So you could do, you could do keto and be eating leafy greens and dairy and well, like a dairy's carnivore. So you could be doing keto and eating a lot of leafy greens and be keto, but you wouldn't eat carnivore because you're having plants.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I get you. Okay. But I've never, yeah, I've just maybe, I don't know how I, how I'd go with Kiro.

Melanie Avalon
I'm dying to know what that would, yeah. Well, you have done it when you do, because you've done like PSMF, right?

Barry Conrad
So i have actually done it without really not like intentionally doing it so just cut cut carbs stick to protein and and fat or animal protein with the phone rather than trying to externally like try to find fat you know.

Melanie Avalon
So that's keto. Okay. Have you done it like multiple days in a row or would you do it as like, like a day, like a, you know, like a one-off type thing? I've done it like who?

Barry Conrad
a few days in a row, like maybe a couple, but not like a whole week or two weeks or anything like that.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Yeah, I think that's probably the difference. You've had days that are keto, but you haven't done a keto diet where you're living in that world for an extended period of time.

Barry Conrad
like consistently to see what the results could be if I gave it a chance properly.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, because I remember when I first started doing it, I was so excited because and this is the reason it was the gateway for me into an obsession with the science of diet and fat burning. I was so excited that I could get those keto urine sticks and measure ketones.

Hello, what's that? Keto urine sticks? Wait, is this new to you? Oh my goodness, I'm so excited to tell you. Okay, so when you first go into... When you first start a ketogenic diet or fasting, this can happen too, and you start producing ketones. At the very beginning, your body is not very efficient with those ketones and it actually wastes a lot of them rather than converting them into a type of ketone that you use for fuel. So you actually excrete a lot of... When you first go into ketosis, you start excreting ketones in your urine. So there are these urinary test strips and they show you if you're making ketones or not. And it can be confusing for people though because when you first start, it'll be really high and then the longer you do it, you might stop... It'll be less in your urine or you might even... I mean, to probably still register it, but you might not. So people think that they're not in ketosis as much or they're not burning fat and that's not true. It's just that your body isn't wasting the ketones anymore. It's using them.

Barry Conrad
Do you know what my initial thought was when you told me about the urine strips?

Melanie Avalon
I literally have no idea. Wait, I'm trying to think, like, what...

Barry Conrad
like to do like a pregnancy test that's like the, you know, it's just, it's just funny. It's a funny visual for, I don't know why that may be laugh.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, glad that now everybody has this visual of me taking it. Well, it's funny. So one of the shocking moments I have, because at the beginning, okay, well, let me backtrack. The reason I thought it was so exciting was it was like, oh, now I don't have to question am I burning fat, I can literally check. Like I can see on this test strip. So that was very exciting.

And, but then I remember one time I got, so I was doing a keto diet and I would be testing my urinary ketones all the time. And then I went to, oh wait, do they have IHOP in Australia? They should. It's international.

Barry Conrad
I do like it. I do love IHOP. But why were you there? Why were you there? That's not a melody.

Melanie Avalon
Because I, okay, because I went, I wasn't paleo first, paleo didn't come into later, I was keto and Atkins, which like I said, you can eat anything as long as it's certain amount of carbs. So I was still eating like, my order of progression was keto and Atkins, then I found fasting, I wasn't paleo yet, then I found paleo.

So I didn't clean up my, like, quote, clean up my diet for non-processed foods until the third era of my dietary evolution. And honestly, I remember I was, I was fasting, I was doing keto, I was like, it's not going to make much difference if I only eat whole foods, like, what difference will that actually make? Middle, big difference.

Barry Conrad
So hold on, so when at IHOP, what would you like give us an example of what you would have then versus something you definitely wouldn't like even consider now?

Melanie Avalon
So this is the thing. So when I was in my keto Atkins phase at IHOP, I ordered an omelet, which is like eggs, bacon, cheese. Like it should be very keto, right? Like you would think.

I ate the omelet. I went home, I tested my urinary ketones and they were gone. And I was like, what happened? And that's when I found out that IHOP puts pancake batter in their omelets.

That's so dumb. Why would they do that? Make them taste better, I guess. But I was like, how do they not tell you? I mean, I wonder if they tell you that now because I haven't been in IHOP in forever. But back then you could just I mean, maybe they say it on the menu. But I just remember thinking I was like so safe, so good with my keto omelet. And then.

Barry Conrad
Nope. Yeah, because the omelet, it's like, it's definitely keto. That's what I think of as keto.

Melanie Avalon
Not when you add pancake batter to it, sneakily.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny that i can just pick because i'm picturing you sitting in an i hope it's just fun it's a funny visual cuz it's just not is not a melanie place now the melanie i know anyway.

Melanie Avalon
What's funny is all my memory, like when you say IHOP or Denny's, all I can think is 3am, probably wearing like a sparkly cocktail dress, being high on life with my fellow early 20 year olds, living our best lives and eating horrible, greasy food at, you know, a diner in LA. That's what I think.

Barry Conrad
You said Denny's, we had Denny's in New Zealand and it's the best ever. It's like exactly what you said. It's like 24 hours and it's like the whole two AM, three AM thing. Same thing.

Melanie Avalon
after the parties and that food tasted so good and so bad for you. Like just the memory I'm getting hit with right now is I remember, so when I went to USC, there was a Denny's like right by all of our housing. So the memory I have right now is it was at my film fraternity party, it was a dinosaur themed party. So it was me and my two friends all in dinosaur outfits. I think I painted my face with like green glitter and was wearing like a glittery green cocktail dress and something else to look like a dinosaur. So I just have a memory of that.

And my friend Matt and his like yellow dinosaur outfit, he actually got like a dinosaur outfit. And then I don't think Carmen was dressed up. And then we were just at Denny's. Like that's what I get hit with. Good times.

Barry Conrad
Do you have, is there photo we need to see a photo of?

Melanie Avalon
There is a photo. Yeah. Do you want to see it? I'll send it to you.

Barry Conrad
I do wanna see it, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, do I not have my photos anymore? Because I lost my Facebook. Oh, no. Well, it's in my scrapbook. So I'll take a picture of it for my scrapbook and send it to you. Do you have a scrapbook?

Barry Conrad
I don't have a- is this an app where you're talking about an actual old school scrapbook?

Melanie Avalon
That's such a cute question. And so sad.

It's such a sad question. Like, it's so sad that now we are in this world where something like scrapbooking it's like, is it an app, you know, like just how far we've come from like the visceral, tangible, these are real, these are real scrapbooks like books, because they can't take that away from me.

Barry Conrad
You know, I used to always keep like a diet, like a diary, like a not not just like a diary, like, you had to plan out things I used to like write at old school, but now I just someone gave me one for Christmas. I'm just I'm just not going to use it.

So I did the whole Melanie, Evelyn mind blown decluttering thing and just tossed it out. I'm not going to use it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, wait, you throw you throw away the unused one, not not like your one with writing in it. Yeah, the unused one. Yeah. Do you have diary like journals diaries that have writings in them?

Barry Conrad
I actually think you know how we talked about how I had some stuff at like an older house. I think there's a box full of older diaries still there. I'm pretty sure.

Melanie Avalon
It is the best when you find those. When I was going through all my stuff moving, I found so many journals and diaries from my five-year-old self, middle school self.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's like a time a time capsule like I thought this like I had this it's so weird in a good way

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's.

Barry Conrad
It's wild. If I interrupted you, Holden, you said scrapbook, so tell me about scrapbook.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, no, just I can take a I'll take a picture of my dinosaur outfit. Oh, I was asking you if you scraped books, if you had scrapbooks.

Barry Conrad
No, no, no, it's not, it's not a BC thing. It's not, I don't know. I just, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
You don't have a whole set of scrapbook materials. You should see my scrapbook material closet. There's a lot.

Barry Conrad
You have a scrap material closet?

Melanie Avalon
yeah, paper, stickers, all the photos. I'm sad because I finished my college scrapbook, college one, like it's done.

And I have a Disney one that's like pretty much done. And then I have a life one that I never finished and then like life got too busy. And maybe I need somebody to do it for me, but I get really into it.

Barry Conrad
Maybe this is a sign that you haven't thought about it in a while, so maybe you should get back into it.

Melanie Avalon
I just don't think, I don't know if I have time. Sad day.

Barry Conrad
What about during your cry?

Melanie Avalon
I'm like, bring all my little supplies with me.

Barry Conrad
Habit stacking, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Awesome. Okay. So does that all make sense now? Like Atkins, keto, paleo, carnivore? Are you going to try keto? Are you going to get some urine sticks?

Barry Conrad
No, no, I'm not going to hit the urine sticks. No, that's, that's a no for me for that, but you know, but I will, I will say that I'm going to intentionally now more approach it and see how I go.

See if I feel any different for starters and then see if it physically affects me like in terms of like how quick I drop weight or water or whatnot over like a longer period of time, we'll see.

Melanie Avalon
Well, you'll have to definitely let us know. Okay, sounds good. How did we start talking about this? Oh, because of your study that you found. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
but no keto urine sticks for me. I'm good.

Melanie Avalon
Barry is not in. Well, if you do want some, I can send you some.

Barry Conrad
I feel like a package from Melody.

Melanie Avalon
hear you. Wait a minute. Okay. I have ideas.

Barry Conrad
That's really funny. I'd probably laugh if you did send it to me like, Okay, I guess I have to try it now.

Melanie Avalon
Surprise. So OK, shall we jump into some listener questions? Let's do it. To start things off, we actually have two related questions. And it relates to a prior episode we did. Last episode, we went through a Facebook post from my group, IF Biohackers. And it was everybody commenting on things they struggle with with fasting. And a few people said that binging was a problem for them. So we wanted to address that here and then also read some questions we've also had about that.

So Michelle sent us an email. And the subject is binge eating. And Michelle says, long story short, I lost approximately 90 pounds last year. Wow. Working out two to three times a day and eating around 1,500 calories under 50 grams of carbs and 20 grams of sugar. That reminds me really quick, Barry. I don't think I define the amount of carbs that qualifies as keto. So Atkins considers it 20 grams or less of net carbs. And net means you subtract fiber. But sometimes it's put in percentages and people say different amounts. But in general, it's usually around 20 grams. So that's nothing. Yeah, it's not much. Oh my goodness. I'm getting so many flashbacks to my keto Atkins days. Like the recipes I would make, I would get like blocks of cream cheese.

Barry Conrad
I love cream cheese.

Melanie Avalon
I know and put like Splenda in them because this was pre-paleo and just make like icing.

Barry Conrad
just eat it? That sounds good. That sounds really good.

Melanie Avalon
And I would make like, I would get cream cheese and I would make like Alfredo type sauces and just eat like chicken and Alfredo. Oh, so good.

Oh, and I would get these Shirataki noodles. Do you know about those?

Barry Conrad
I do. They're really delicious.

They're really good. You like them? And there's actually a store, literally, I'm not even lying, like downstairs from this apartment block that like an Asian grocer and stuff, and they sell all of that. I just had a look yesterday.

Melanie Avalon
Do they, the ones in Australia, do they smell, because like for me, when you open the bag, they smell like formaldehyde. Like literally smell like formaldehyde.

Really? Yeah, do the ones there smell like that?

Barry Conrad
Not not from what I can remember. I don't think so. Maybe here of a sensitive nose.

Melanie Avalon
This was a thing because I because you had I'd like Google it and people talk about how to get rid of the smell. You had to like dump the water, boil it like a lot and then coat it heavily.

And maybe maybe it's gotten better now.

Barry Conrad
Maybe they've improved. Sniff it in the store. People are like, are you okay, sir?

Melanie Avalon
You know what that would wreck my gut if I had those right now They're like basically just indigestible fiber

Barry Conrad
Yeah you changed your diet up a lot from what you said so no stay away from those.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I remember I used to get, okay, so similar to sirotaki noodles. Have you heard of konjac flour or glucomannan? Okay, wait, there's two different things. They might be the same thing. I'm not sure.

It was this powder that you could add to liquids and it would gel it up and I would get these Atkins shakes that were like no calories but like chocolate or vanilla and then I would add this powder to it and it would turn it into like a pudding and it would be so good and then I would literally be in pain for like a day and then I would get over it and then I would just rinse and repeat like it was so so messed up.

Barry Conrad
Like you're self-sabotaged but you just can't get away, you just can't jump off that train.

Melanie Avalon
So in any case, keto tends to be like 20 grams of carbs.

Barry Conrad
You're a real chemist. You really made all these recipes.

Melanie Avalon
I would make my own version of chicken teriyaki, and I would get liquid Splenda and make teriyaki sauce. I did a lot.

Barry Conrad
Splendid though, is that like the sugar alternative? I've never actually tried that before, ever.

Melanie Avalon
artificial sweetener. I thought it was the best of the best back before I realized how toxic they all are.

So Michelle says she lost 90 pounds working out two to three times a day, eating around 1500 calories, under 50 grams of carbs and 20 grams of sugar. I was mentally and physically the healthiest I ever had been. When I started my first year teaching, I started getting out of the routine. By the time May of this year came around, I was burnt out. I was dealing with a burnout, a breakup, a job transition, and applying for grad school. As a person with generalized anxiety, I thrive on consistency. This summer put a huge toll on me and I believe I fell into a depression. I started rewarding myself with bad meals frequently and became too tired to work out. I've gained about 20 pounds back, but overall my issue is binge eating. I will eat when I'm not hungry and make myself miserable. Sometimes I feel like I do it because I'm scared it's not going to be there later on. I'm not sure why. I didn't grow up neglected or it's emotional eating, feeling a void, and overall my family is very overweight. I also take Vyvanse to help with binging. I'm just at the point where I am feeling defeated. My gut health is in terrible shape and I know I just need to get back into getting healthier. I used a 16.8 window on and off last year and I believe it helps. Any advice on binging? And then Noreen, she posted in Facebook, she said, oh and I think this was from that chain we went through. She said, I became so focused on the clock that I forgot to listen to real hunger. This has led to binging. I started IF to lose 20 pounds. It worked until this happened and now I'm still fasting and I have the extra 20 pounds. It took six months to lose. I maintained 1.5 years. I've struggled the past two years. I don't listen to my body's cues anymore. Every day I say I'm going to. I work out hard at the gym, lifting and cardio, 70-30. I'm strong and lean underneath 20 pounds of fluff. So binging. Barry, do you have thoughts on this topic?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, I like to like addressing kind of both individually. Can I do that? Or do you want me to summarize what I? Sure. Yeah. I mean, Michelle, like what you're saying, it's, it's stressful, like the emotional toll of everything, like the burnout, the transition and everything. And it makes total sense that your team's gonna, it's gonna get thrown off. You're human. The fact that you're even thinking about how to get back on track shows just how much you care about your health.

So don't underestimate that. I mean, binge eating is super tricky because it's never, it's never just about the food. It's a combination of a few things is physiology, psychology, the habits that are built up over a long time. And what I'm hearing you saying is that you were in such a structured discipline place before, like you're working out two, three times a day, eating a very specific way, keeping your carbs and your sugar pretty low, and then life just sort of hit you pretty hard. And when that kind of structure suddenly disappears, Michelle, like your brain tends to swing the other way to compensate. And it's like, hold on, you know, we're operating under all these tight rules. And now things just feel like way out of control. So let's just grab whatever we can eat on the go. So I think the key here is to look at why the binging is happening. And you mentioned sometimes feeling like you need to eat because the food might not be there later. I've had thoughts like that before as well. Like maybe let me just sort of eat for the future. And that's just not, you don't need to do that, even though you didn't grow up in a food insecurity. That right there tells me like your brand, it's still wide in a scarcity mindset when it comes to eating, which is something a lot of people experience after, especially a long periods of restriction. So it's not even necessarily a conscious fear. It's just this like a deep rooted drive that says stock up now while you can. And then, of course, there's the emotional side, which is like filling a void and using food as a comfort mechanism, which again is is a big thing for a lot of people, especially when stress and exhaustion piles up. So I guess where do we go from here, Michelle? I guess one of the biggest things is shifting the way you're looking at structure. So it sounds like you thrive in a routine. Same. And fasting definitely gives you some of that. So maybe bring back that 16 eight window, for example, maybe that could help, but not in a restrictive way. So instead of thinking of I can't eat outside this window, try reframing it as this is when I feel my best eating. This is when I can eat. That small shift in mindset makes a huge difference. And within that, focusing on nourishment rather than restriction is going to be your friend. So if your meals are built around protein rich nutrient dense foods, that's going to help stabilize your blood sugar and and actually help with those binges.

Barry Conrad
Michelle, because binging isn't just mental. It's also literally blood sugar and satiety issue as well. So if your body isn't getting what it needs on the regular, it's going to push you towards those massive cravings. And I have to mention gut health as well, because you said your guts is like a mess right now. And honestly, I think that could be playing a bigger role than maybe you realize, because there is a big gut brain connection. And when your microbiome is off, it can actually increase stress and anxiety. And it becomes the cycle where like, if your gut health fuels your mood imbalances, which feels binging, which then leads like to gut issues. So bringing in maybe like fermented foods, you know, omega threes, making sure you're giving your gut that right environment is going to help. I mean, finally, I would say like, back on track, you know, that same back on track, like it doesn't mean going back to where you were a year ago. I mean, you made so much progress. It's about creating something that fits into your life now, Michelle, and that supports you instead of like controlling. You already know what works. Now it's just about finding a way to do it that doesn't feel so extreme and constricting. And Melanie, what do you think about that? I mean, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon
I love everything you said so much. So I love that you touched on the part about having the eating for the future. I think that happens a lot with people, not even just with binging, but with people with intermittent fasting. They think that because they're fasting, yeah, they have to stock up on food because they're going to be fasting. So having a reframe there of, like you said, this is when you feel best to eat, and you get to eat again tomorrow, like the next day, if you're doing a fasting protocol, just remembering that I think is so important.

The gut health piece, so I'm glad you brought this up because I wanted to mention this. I interviewed, again, Dr. Stephen Gundry. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes that was on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast. One of the things I really liked that we talked about, and this was for his newest book called The Gut Brain Paradox, and it's about the connection between our microbiome and our gut. He makes the case that the concept of intuitive eating, for example, might not even be, I don't want to say not possible, but our gut microbiome largely determines our cravings. So the intuitive thing to do if our gut microbiome is out of whack and used to eating things that are not in our favor, the intuitive thing is to eat those things because that's what the microbiome is telling you. So if you get into a binge type cycle where you're binging on a lot of unhealthy foods, your microbiome is going to start craving that and tell you to eat more. The way out of that is to stop eating those foods and change what you're eating and your microbiome will actually change. It can change pretty fast. So I guess just knowing that these cravings you're having for certain foods may, like Barry said, and I just touched on, they may be coming from a gut microbiome that's a little bit out of whack, but you can definitely change it for the better. And we'll put a link in the show notes to that episode with Dr. Gundry. One thing else that I think is really important is on the one hand, I do think that there is usually behind binging habits, it's a psychological piece like Barry was saying. So could be something from your childhood, some sort of trauma, like it's probably coming from an emotional place. At the same time, I love the work of Glenn Livingston. He originally wrote a book called Never Binge Again. His newest book is called Defeat Your Cravings. And I've had him on the shows a few times, but most recently we had him on this show for episode 356. So either go to show notes, which will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 423, or go directly, so it uses link instead, or go directly to ifpodcast.com slash cravings. And you can get his book for free there. But his whole thing that I love so much is that yes, even if there are these emotional things behind everything, even if it's from childhood, like it literally doesn't, not that it doesn't matter, but to make change, you can you can quickly and rapidly make change if you have a mindset shift where you just say no.

Melanie Avalon
His whole thing, I've talked about it a lot in the show before, but he calls it like the pig. So you call this, you call this voice inside of you that's telling you to eat, you call it something else that's not you. He calls the pig, but you can call it whatever you want. You basically learn to that you don't have to listen to it.

And I know it sounds so simple to say you just stop binging. That's the concept. Like you don't like you don't like contemplate it. You don't like wonder where it's coming from. You don't like try to reason with it. You don't try to like logic your way out of things. You literally just say no. And I'm way oversimplifying it. But it's an incredible approach. And it has radically changed so many people's lives. So I would definitely, definitely get his book ASAP. Again, you can get it for completely free. Just go to ifodcast.com slash cravings, and you can get it there. So that might help I think for both of them.

Barry Conrad
It's awesome, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, all right any other thoughts for those

Barry Conrad
you know with yeah with Noreen I you know thanks for being so honest and vulnerable about this you know I think a lot of people relate and the fact that you lost 20 pounds and maintained it over like a whole year is massive and one of my personal mentors that I actually use in life is I have done it I can do it and I will do it again so you don't have to worry about that but I know that the last couple of years I felt like a struggle so take a breath in let's zoom out for a second you know you you mentioned that you're strong and you'll lean but underneath that 20 pounds and first of all that's amazing the fact that you you're lifting and doing cardio you're showing up for your workouts that's great it says a lot but I reckon it might be time to maybe shift a little bit like starting to ask again reframing things like am I hungry right now am I just watching the clock rather than paying attention to how I feel you know and with binging as Melanie and I bursted before it's it's often from restriction physically or mentally especially for too long and you're trying to white knuckle your way through it and at what might help us maybe go into a 18 maybe go from 18 6 to like a 14 10 even for a little bit like give yourself permission to eat when you're hungry focus on that because you're you're also lifting a lot and doing cardio and gymming like that put stress on your body the good kind of stress but you need to feel yourself properly as well you know so under feeling or inconsistent feelings gonna spike those cravings and when you prioritize protein healthy fats and carbs after that's gonna help you I mean last thing I would say Noreen is just give yourself some grace you know like the hardest part is showing up and just be willing to change things just change your mind reevaluate reset you've got this you know you're more in tune than you think so keep us posted with how it goes now what do you reckon

Melanie Avalon
I love everything you said so much yeah people you really do have this and i love what you said about i do the same thing so when you're saying that you. You can do it because you've done in the past something i often tell myself is.

You only have to do something once to do it a million times because if we haven't done something before it's scary and i might seem like we can't do it but once you've done it once you can do it a million times cuz you know you've done it so. You know tackling these things in your own at your own pace and one thing at a time just know that you you've done it before you can keep doing it going forward so definitely let us know both Michelle and arena how it goes.

Barry Conrad
Please do. Good luck and keep us posted. We're rooting for you.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Shall we have our hypothetical, magical, not real, fake, but also real breaking of our fast?

Barry Conrad
I'm so ready and I'm hungry too. It's now Melanie and Phyllis is out there just to give you some inside baseball.

It's 12 p.m. here in Australia right now. Melanie, what time is it where you are? Nine o'clock p.m. That's so crazy. There you go. Just a bit of insight.

Melanie Avalon
I know I call you Australia when I'm, if I'm like saying that I have a, if I like can't do something with somebody, I'm like, I, I'm like, I'm, um, got my Australia tonight.

Barry Conrad
That's pretty funny. That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon
talking with Australia. I love it. Works well. Works well with our, it's a good thing I have such a crazy circadian rhythm.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Otherwise you'd be like, it's too late. Can we do like one PM my time?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know what we're going to do when you move to the US, so I have to figure that out.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, what are we going to do? We can do it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah we'll figure it out okay so well I'm inspired because our last our last episode you gave me the green light to do Disney restaurants.

Barry Conrad
Of course, let's do it. I was hoping that you'd bring another one.

Melanie Avalon
I'm going to like slowly, I mean, I know you're already on board, but I'm going to make, I'm going to turn Barry Conrad into an Epcot like fanboy by the time we move here and then you're just going to have to go. So let me send you the link.

Actually let me explain first. So this menu is not, okay, let me explain. One of my favorite restaurants in Epcot, which to recap, Epcot is the experimental prototype community of tomorrow, one of the four Disney World Parks. And it has an area called the World Showcase where there are 11 countries in a row. Each country is, it looks like you're in that country. The people who work there are from that country, they're dressed up, there's like restaurants and stores. Some have rides. It's incredible. And the restaurants are just really amazing. And they're very authentic. So actually I'll save it. It's like the Mexican restaurant, for example. It's like authentic Mexican. It's not like Tex-Mex, like American food. One of my favorites is called the Beer Garden Restaurant. It's in Germany. And it is set up to look like, it looks so cool, Barry, like you could Google it. It looks like you are at an outdoor, like in Germany, outside, but you're inside. But it looks like it's outside and it looks like it's nighttime. And it looks like there's like buildings and everything and then there's a big stage. And they do like a show every night, like multiple times. And they do like a beer garden show with like music and Lederhosen and singing and like cheers and it's the most best time. And then there's a buffet of German food that you get food from.

Barry Conrad
I'm looking at photos right now, Mel. It looks awesome. It looks epic.

Melanie Avalon
Doesn't it look so cool?

Barry Conrad
All the lights in there, it's amazing, it's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
And it literally feels like you're outdoors, but it's indoors. It's so cool. I love it. It's wonderful.

And then the show. So I set you the list of what they have on the on the buffet. So what all would you eat from the buffet here? Let me turn it to dinner.

Barry Conrad
Lunch menu. Okay, let's turn to dinner.

Melanie Avalon
And it's a partial listing. So these are like the main things that they always have, but then they'll have, they probably have like double this, but they'll have specific things that night. So these are the staples.

So actually I can read the staples. So like the staples, they have seasonal salads, rotisserie chicken, potatoes, schnitzel, traditional sausages, sauerkraut, schnitzel, noodle gratin, and assorted desserts.

Barry Conrad
What would I have? I would, I would have all, I don't know what's that's all is and noodle grats and what are those smells, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So this is so funny to me. So my family is German. We would go to Germany a lot growing up, and my dad took me to Germany when I was five. And I remember being so upset because like when I first went with my dad, all he fed me over there in Germany was bratwurst, like bratwurst and vice first, which is like white bratwurst. And I mean, I liked bratwurst, but I didn't like love bratwurst. Like it wasn't my favorite thing.

And then I realized when I was older that they had this thing called schnitzel. I know you asked about schnitzel, but they have schnitzel, which is basically like fried chicken and it's delicious. And this was before my like dietary changes. And like half of the time it's like stuffed with cheese. And I was like, dad, how, like parents, how are you like only feeding me bratwurst when I could have been having this like amazing fried chicken and fried ham schnitzel or like schnitzel, which is like a pasta dish. It has like eggs and flour and milk and butter. It's usually when I've had it, like when I had it there, it was always warm. Sometimes it has like a sauce on it. It's really usually really yummy. Sometimes it has like a cheesy sauce. It's really good.

Barry Conrad
I'm Googling a photo of it. Ah, this looks really good. It almost looks like macaroni and cheese vibes, like in terms of creamy, ta-da-da, na?

Melanie Avalon
It's like that without being super cheesy but it's like very creamy and I wasn't sure what noodle gratin was. I looked it up and literally Disney World comes up so I feel like they came up with it.

I don't know. It looks like it's um potatoes or gratin but with noodles instead.

Barry Conrad
So I would go off this buffet list, pretty much everything there. I would try everything there.

So the seasonal salads, rotisserie chicken, potatoes, schnitzel, for sure. By the way, Melanie, schnitzels are massive in Australia.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, really? Yeah. Wait, is it the same thing?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's like chicken snitty. You want to get a chicken snitty? We said chicken snitty.

Melanie Avalon
don't have that here in the US. Even when I say fried chicken, I realize I'm glad you I'm glad you're saying this because when I say fried chicken, it's not what Americans are thinking up.

It's like, it's like a fried patty like, like a fried no, how do I say it?

Barry Conrad
It's like breaded as well, right? It's not like, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
It's like taking a chicken breast and breading it. So it's flat and square, usually. It's not like fried chicken, like Kentucky fried chicken. It's not like that. It's like pounded, usually.

Barry Conrad
It's actually really good. Actually, you saw right. I've never seen it in America. It's not a thing there.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, which is like so weird because it's very in line with what we would like here. Something strange that it hasn't taken off.

Barry Conrad
I also didn't know you were German learned something again about you didn't know i did not know that till now there we go.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just think it's so funny, though, that my parents, like, why were they making me eat bratwurst the whole time when I could have been having schnitzel and spatzel?

Barry Conrad
traditional sauce, just sauerkraut nuts, so I mean, it could take it to leave it for me. I want to try the spazzle and I want to, out of curiosity, try the noodle gratin, whatever that is. Yeah, what about you?

Melanie Avalon
Well, what's funny, it's funny how far I've come with sauerkraut. So I remember being again, growing up German, being so grossed out by sauerkraut and thinking like how horrible and disgusting it looked. And now I'm like, I think it's like the best thing ever.

And it's so good for your gut microbiome, you know, fermented. I would eat probably eat the, well, they have allergy friendly options. So I would ask for allergy friendly versions of, I probably just eat the chicken and sauerkraut.

Barry Conrad
Really? What about the traditional sausages? Is that too much from your past? No more. I'm done with that.

Melanie Avalon
I would like to try it. It's just with the sausages, you don't really know what all is in there. So I wouldn't know if it had a lot of like sugar added and stuff. If I knew it was like just sausage, I would definitely like to try it.

But the good thing, the one thing I love about Disney is they are very good at working with dietary restrictions. They're like all about it. They'll like give you a tour. So like when you I've been given the tour at the buffet, they'll like come out and they'll tour you through the buffet and point at what is on your diet or not. It's crazy.

Barry Conrad
That's really good. I like that.

Melanie Avalon
I do too, but they're Disney.

Barry Conrad
What about the assorted dessert? What kind of desserts do they have, do you know?

Melanie Avalon
It's been so long. I'm trying to remember if I remember anything. I've been there so many times though. I do know I feel like there was like a pudding that was good, but they probably change it now.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because I wonder like I'm part German, but don't really know it. Yeah, but I don't know anything about that, but it's not really a cultural thing.

So I don't know what sort of desserts to expect the German type motif. I don't, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Well, so I'm looking at pictures and it looks like they have, these are just pictures on Google. I see some, let's just look up common German desserts, because that's probably what they have, common German.

So common German desserts are things like, I don't know how to say these words, chocolate, lebuken. There's some sort of chocolate cakes, plum tarts, cookies, stolen, they probably have that. It's like a bread that has fruit in it, kind of like fruit cake, but not really. It's harder, has fruit and nuts and spices and then icing on it.

Barry Conrad
They got cheesecakes. I'm looking at, there's quite a few German cheesecakes. Is that a thing there? Quite big? Yeah. I'm all for the dessert, so let's do it. I'll try the assorted.

Melanie Avalon
I will watch you have them. I will, this is what we can do. I think this will be fun.

You can get all of them, and then I will tell you which ones I think I would like. And then you can try them all and let me know which ones you like, and then we'll compare notes.

Barry Conrad
And then you'll try some too? Okay, what else would you like to try? There's some beverages there. How about beverages?

Melanie Avalon
So they do have a Pinot Noir from Germany, I would have to look it up and see if anything's organic. Would you get some beer?

Barry Conrad
I would in the theme of being at this place for sure, and I'm not normally a beer guy, but I'm definitely gonna have some beer here because I saw it in the photo too. So I'm like, yeah, I'll do that.

Melanie Avalon
You've got to have it because during the show they do this whole thing where they like sing and then they're like Broast and everybody like like broasts and everybody sings the thing together. Oh and they do that.

They do the um The chicken song what's that like that? Dada? Dada? Dada? Dada? Dada? Do you know that song? Yeah, I have cool it. Dada. Dada. Dada. Dada. Yeah, they do that and like everybody sings it Apparently, it's I guess it's german. I don't know

Barry Conrad
Would you get a beer as well to try it on up.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no, no. I, yeah, I don't like beer. I like active, not only, I mean, it has gluten in it, but I actively dislike beer. Like I dislike it.

Barry Conrad
Whoa, why? Why actively? It's like quite, you know.

Melanie Avalon
I know. And I like most foods and drinks.

I just don't like the taste of it. Well, what's interesting is I do have a gluten and a wheat sensitivity. And so it's literally just brewed wheat. So I think my body is telling me that I should not be eating it.

Like my body does not like wheat. Fair enough. So I don't like the taste.

Barry Conrad
You know, Mel, I don't like, I'm not a beer guy, but while I was moving, I bought, I bought a six pack. That says a lot, right? You got to. I did it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it like blows my mind like I can't wrap my mind around enjoying the taste of beer and I like I know people like crave like a cold beer on a summer day and like literally that sounds miserable sour beers. If I had to, I do a sour beer.

Do they have a sour beer? What's that? It's kind of more like wine.

Barry Conrad
Is it a brand or is that a type of beer?

Melanie Avalon
No, it's a type of beer. I don't see one. So I actually, I worked in a beer bar. That was my first serving job.

So I learned a lot about beer, which was helpful, even though I don't drink it. So sour beers are kind of, they're very like fruity and they're, yeah, they're more like wine. You would, you should keep your eyes if you see, like next time you go to a restaurant, like that has a lot of beer, see if they have a sour beer.

Barry Conrad
I did a couple of years ago when I went back to New Zealand for Christmas, this hotel invited me there for this beer tasting situation. It was really fun actually, because I don't normally drink beer, but they had like six to eight beers, and we just went through them all, and it was actually pretty interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Do they have one that was soury, kind of fruity?

Barry Conrad
Not sorry, but there were there were fruitier ones. Maybe it's maybe that's just a thing. I'm sure there is, though. It's Australia. Australia, we love our beer here. I'm sure there is.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Australia, I just find Australia so like interesting. Really? Yeah. Feel like everybody's like happy and hot and drunk and.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. And what's the alternative in America? Like what? Everyone's like at IHOP?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, because you guys seem like genuinely happy. Here, we're like happy, but also like have like a lot a chip on our shoulder, and our petty and then lots of different seasons.

So not just hot drinking on and off.

Barry Conrad
We have different seasons, but it's not just like so I feel like you feel like it's somewhere here all the time and everyone's like running around and like board shorts.

Melanie Avalon
I do feel that. That's probably completely wrong. I realize I have completely wrong perspective, but I'm just telling you my stereotype from my head.

Barry Conrad
So you wouldn't get so you wouldn't get a base on this menu here would you have a wine maybe a pinot noir.

Melanie Avalon
Maybe. I have to look up the two. They only have two right now. So maybe the Pinot Noir, this might be a sneak in my wine situation.

Barry Conrad
I really want to see this happen like the compartment, how you do it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, I will I will show you I'm not right now when I'm thinking about I'm thinking about because I haven't been to Disney since I started this. I'm trying to think about the security at the front. How that works.

I think I could do it. The bad that I'm telling like thousands of people this it's too late now. I'm just doing it to support my health. Yeah, it's health reasons.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I would get the Pinot Grigio, by the way, I get a glass of that

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I might have to look at the whites here. Yeah. So and to emphasize, friends, the importance of the eating window because the benefits of fasting are not just in the fast. You need that eating window to actually get all of the benefits.

So cheers to everybody. This was so, so amazing. Listeners, friends, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at ipodcast.com, or you can go to ipodcast.com. You can submit questions there. And the show notes will be at ipodcast.com slash episode 423. To get that free defeat your cravings book, go to ipodcast.com slash cravings. And you can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And we are I have podcast. So I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go

Barry Conrad
No, thanks again so much for tuning in everyone. You're awesome. Have an amazing rest of your day and we'll see you next time.

Melanie Avalon
I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
I think I'll talk to you then, bye.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

May 12

Episode 421 – Special Listener Guest Pamela Wakeman, Fasting For Menopause, Alcohol, Kava, And Fat Burning, Changing Up Your Window, HRT Benefits, Protein Intake, Combatting Lifestyle Overwhelm, Food Choices For Kids & Teens, And More!

⁠pamelawakemanwellness.com

Welcome to Episode 421 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, Intermittent Fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with a very special listener guest today. We've been doing some episodes in this listener guest series, and it is just so, fun because for so long, for years and years and years, I've been doing this show and putting out content for everybody. And now I feel like it's time to actually talk with you guys and get your stories and hear your thoughts and your fasting experience. So I am just loving doing this. And today's guest has such an incredible story. I'm here with Pamela Wakeman. She is from Arizona, and she has a really incredible story about her fasting journey, and in particular, how it really helped her with navigating menopause and a lot of the symptoms that go with that. And she has so many experiences. So I have so many questions for her. And, and actually, to start it off, Pamela, when I was reading your story that you sent in, I thought it was so funny. So basically, you first found intermittent fasting because you thought Dr. Minnie Peltz's book fast like a girl was about running. What happened there?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, well, because yes, definitely I have been running long distance events for, you know, like a decade and I'm always looking for women focused sort of coaching. And I want to say there's even a blog that I was following before I moved to Colorado before I moved to Arizona. So maybe it was like 15 years ago now.

But I thought it was called Fast Like a Girl. And that's how I like Google that. And I came up with Mindy Pels book. But it wasn't until I actually heard her on Mel Robbins podcast that I understood like what she was really about.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I love that. Did you listen to my interview? I interviewed her on my other show, or was it this show, my other show, I think.

Pamela Wakeman
It was, I think it was a show. Let me Google really quick. She's definitely going to be a fasting lady.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I actually I had her on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, she was really, really great.

The work that she does is so profound and like we were talking about the beginning, she really understands adopting fasting for, for women's hormones and things like that. The beginning of your fasting journey. So you were exposed to her content. Did you, how did you feel? Were you skeptical? Were you excited? Did you immediately jump in? How did you start?

Pamela Wakeman
I had a boss, the manager at work mentioned to me about his fasting experience and it sounded kind of out there at the time. And I thought, good for him, those are pretty lofty goals.

As a couple of years had gone by, I started to have issues from everything from joint pain to hip issues to carpal tunnel syndrome, tennis elbow. I mean, it was all like one thing after the other after the other. And I was not the type of person who had these issues in the past. I had running injuries, but these were all unrelated and coming out of nowhere. And so I started to seek out ways that I could sort of help myself. And so when I heard Mindy talking about healing yourself through fasting, it put a whole different lens on fasting for me. It wasn't about weight loss, which I definitely had through menopause, I was gaining weight faster than I ever had, which was also surprising and a little scary. But the fasting in terms of inducing autophagy, this was incredibly interesting to me. And I thought, I need to try this right away because I was just about to have another hip surgery.

And I was thinking to myself, maybe I could have avoided this had I already had delved into fasting and multi-day fasting to be able to regenerate cells and restore my metabolism or reset as Minnie Pels likes to say. So yeah, I jumped in. Short answer, I jumped right in and started and built my way up to a 16-8 fast. And then I had been following her for about three months. And then she hosted a 72-hour fast at the beginning of the year, January. And I thought, oh boy, is this even safe? Like I started to question how I was even going to make it through. Because there's all these preconceived ideas of what going without food means in our society. I'm raising, she's 19 years old now, but at the time, my daughter was having issues navigating our diet culture and looking a certain way and feeling a certain way in your clothes.

And every time some of those thoughts that I had grown up with would come out of my mouth, and she would just look at me like, what is wrong with you? You can't say these things anymore. Like you can't go without food for a certain amount of time. And I'm like, but wait, this is under a different lens now. We're not talking about going without food because we are trying to lose weight and we just want to tough it through and get to the next day. And then just go and eat the same diet or eat the same kinds of foods that you were eating before. This is about you are emotionally and mentally aware of what you're doing. You're not doing it to punish yourself. You're doing it to unlock the power of your body to be able to heal itself. And sure, drop some fat or burn some fat, which is like a whole different viewpoint from losing weight. Losing water weight and losing muscle comes from dieting in an unhealthy way or in a way that's dysfunctional.

Pamela Wakeman
My daughter was in our society pushes forth, but this ability to sort of trigger ketosis and use those ketones to burn body fat. I mean, this was just so intriguing to me.

And trying to share it to my daughter as it was like, they were even skeptical because they were like, this doesn't sound healthy. This sounds scary. You shouldn't do this. So I really had to dive in and understand the science behind it before I could go back and talk to them about it more fully.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so many things there. Did your daughters come around to your perspective or how did that end up?

Pamela Wakeman
You know, my youngest is still of the mindset where she feels like she's young and she can, you know, wants to eat whatever she wants because she's young and doesn't want to deprive herself. And so, like, I feel like we've kind of met in the middle where she feels, you know, like she still wants to eat certain foods, but, like, she understands what those foods now can do to her metabolism. And so, she's making a conscious choice not because she feels entitled, because, you know, she's young and her body will burn, you know, calories or have a faster metabolism, but more because she just wants to be able to experiment with different types of foods.

And as long as she's aware of what's, you know, when she can control, you know, the types of foods that she's eating, like, for instance, you know, she does want to cut out sugar now because she understands, you know, what it can do to your skin. You know, having multiple reasons beyond just losing weight to look good is really more of an intrinsic motivator than just, you know, I want to look good in my clothes. My other daughter is more, she's cutting out alcohol, so she's looking at it from a different perspective where she's just like, I'm done, you know, going out with my friends and getting drunk on the weekends and partying. I'm really going to be more actively taking responsibility for my health from a health perspective, from a I want to be cleaner. I want to eat healthier whole foods and, you know, make sure that I'm not getting any toxins, you know, in my body. So, both of them coming from different perspectives and both of them very, very important for the whole, this whole process of fasting, because there's so many different pathways to detox, to be able to allow our bodies to be able to fast, you know, most efficiently. So, I feel like I'm having impact, but it's just different for different, maybe different age ranges, probably.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting. And I don't think I'll ever have kids.

One of the reasons I don't want to is I don't want to deal with the issue or the challenge of raising them the way I would want them to live with health choices and things like that, but also supporting, you know, personal freedom and agency. And literally, I just, it's just too much for me to deal with. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.

Pamela Wakeman
No, it's totally a lot. I was running under my, I could hear my parents' voices in my head as I was hunting my kids.

And then it wasn't until, I mean, I went through a divorce and I started to become my own person. I was going through menopause. I was really understanding who I was for the first time. And from that lens, I could actually parent my kids in a more effective way, I think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that. It's ironic because I feel, especially on my other show, I feel like I read so many books that touch on all this, so I'm learning a lot, but I don't think I'll ever actually practically implement it.

And something I think about a lot actually is, so this is not fasting, and I'm not endorsing fasting for kids. It's, you know, 18 or older, but food choices, like the healthy food choices you make, I also feel conflicted about that because on the one hand, I wish, like I wish I had been raised eating like non-processed foods and whole foods and healthy foods, but I ate, you know, all the junk. And it's like I have all these really great memories involving like junk food. So it's this weird dichotomy of like having fondness surrounding these foods that I no longer eat, wondering what it would have been like if I'd never eaten them. It's just really intriguing. It's interesting to think about.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, like the other day, I mean, like when I was growing up, my dad would be like, don't eat all that cool whip, you know, because it's bad for you, it's full of sugar. But like now I see on like ketogenic, like blogs or whatever, they'll have recipes with like, not you know, sugar free cool whip, like make these great desserts. And like you can eat the whole tub. It's like, Oh, awesome.

Like, you know, it's, it's again, a whole different point of view. Like you want the fat in your diet now you want to be able to, you know, feel satiated, and we do need fat in our diet to do that. So that does, you know, bring up like the conjure up like the old junk foods of yesteryear.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and speaking of the food, and your personal diet, the foods that you've eaten historically and then when you started fasting, how did that change for you personally?

Pamela Wakeman
When I first heard Mindy talking, she would say, talk about this story about this man that she was training or she was coaching and how he would eat the same foods, but just in a smaller eating window. And so to me, I guess I wanted to start that way so I wouldn't feel like I was really dieting or making a huge life change all at once. So I didn't change much of my diet. I just compressed my eating window.

And then as I started to maybe drop a few, I started to gain momentum and think, oh, well, it's working. What else can I do to make it even more effective? And so I started to learn about detoxing my body from I started to eat more meat, but I realized that the kind of meat I was eating had to be a little bit cleaner, couldn't just go out and eat any ribeye. It really should be a grass-fed, grass-finished ribeye if I'm going to be able to eat the whole thing and have the fat be of benefit to my body versus pulling in all the chemicals from the pesticides that the cattle eat. So that started to just build on itself. So I stopped eating grains because grains, again, are one of those foods that are sprayed with toxic chemicals.

And I started to replace these foods with other foods that had more protein because having already been clued into the fact that women in menopause have to have even more protein in their diet from reading the book Roar, which is about women who are active, very active, and want to keep staying active even through menopause. There are protein needs that you have to, you really have to maintain. So just finding foods that have more protein and finding ways to just sneak in protein wherever I could, but still fast. So that was kind of tricky, trying to get in enough protein and still stay in a fasting state or a fasted state.

But then I went all into what am I cooking with and how am I cooking these foods? I'm cooking with pots and pans that have Teflon all over them and I'm storing them in plastic containers and I'm using aluminum foil to cook on when I barbecue. It's things like that. It's like, oh, wait a minute. These things are impacting how the nutrition of the food is actually being absorbed in my body or not being absorbed for that matter. So I had to make big changes in the kitchen to get rid of the plastics and the toxic kitchen cookware.

And then beyond that, then it led into, and I know you're familiar with this, the cosmetics, cleaner cosmetics, because I'm living in Tucson where it's really dry. So I'm using all creams, moisturizers where I'm using a lot of it. So is it clean or is it full of different kinds of chemicals that impact my hormonal system? So yeah, everything is impacting the way my body reacts to the foods ultimately that I'm eating, because if the foods aren't able to find a way into my cells because they're blocked by toxins, then I'm not doing the best that I can do for my body.

But this took a while. It took a good year to figure out. Had I known all this at the very beginning, it probably would have been too overwhelming, and I might have stalled out and not continued on with it.

Pamela Wakeman
So I'm glad that I had the chance to just ease my way into it and learn about all this slowly and through different people. Mindy Pels was one person, and ultimately I did actually get a certification with her to be a coach for Fast Like a Girl so that I can help other women enter into that lifestyle.

But also, it's good to have lots of different teachers and really vary the different teachings and understand things from different perspectives, because there's so much out there and a lot of it is conflicting, and to weed through it is tricky. So you have to view it from the lens of your life and what's reasonable for you, or else you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.

Melanie Avalon
You are touching on something that I think so many people experience, and this happened to my friend really recently, which is that when you start this health journey, you said something about how it's a good thing that you weren't exposed to all this information right at the beginning because you would have been overwhelmed. And I think that happens so often with people.

If they want to make change, they can almost feel stuck. If they realize all the things they need to change compared to it being an evolving journey where at least for me personally, what I experienced and what I think a lot of people experience and I'm hearing with you is that when you find it's kind of like the gateway drug, but like the thing that works like fasting for you and you feel the difference and you feel the benefits, then you get excited about everything that you get to learn. And then you can slowly tackle all the things. At least for me, it was like, oh, okay, now what can I do next? And so I really think people can switch that mindset from a potential fear-based mindset of all the things they have to do to one of empowerment of all the things they get to do on their own timeline, on their own pace, or at their own face. Was that sort of your experience? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
In fact, more recently, you know, when I was listening to your podcast, Vanessa was talking about autophagy and she was citing a study where, and I hope I get this right and do her justice, but she had said that there is the same amount of autophagy or to trigger the same amount of autophagy from a 72-hour fast, you can get the same amount or same effect from doing a 30-minute strength or resistance training workout, which is like to me, like that says, okay, so now after I've been on this fasting journey, I'm learning something new that maybe I don't want to do like, maybe my, I can do like a 72-hour fast a couple of times a year, but maybe I don't want to do them off more often than that. And in, you know, to replace that or in addition to that, I can do some, you know, I can really get more resistance training in and kind of extend the amount of time that I was doing it to get the same effect.

That to me kind of blows my mind because, you know, now I have two different tools at my disposal that I can use to get the kind of healing that I'm looking for. And yeah, I think that the more you kind of dive into this world, the more tools you find and the more varied they are, I think that's important because your body needs to, from what I understand, your body really needs to switch it up and to be, you know, confused a little bit so that it has to adapt and learn something new. And then that adaptation kind of makes those changes in your body. And that's where you start to see, you know, the physical changes too.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Vanessa, she's amazing at finding all of these incredible studies, especially around things like protein and autophagy and training. And yeah, I vaguely remember her talking about that one. Something else you touched on that I love is the exposing yourself to different ideas. I think this is so important, like always having an open mind and, you know, engaging with all different ideas and perspectives.

And it's interesting. So one I got reminded of when you were talking was, and we haven't aired this yet at the time of us personally recording, but by the time this episode comes out, it will have aired. So episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman, who's well known for the Forks Over Knives documentary and some books surrounding that. He co-wrote the Whole Foods diet with John Mackey, who is the former CEO and founder, co-founder of Whole Foods. And he has a company called We Be Calm, but he's really amazing and he's very much in the vegan sphere. He brought up actually the concept of toxins and animal fat. And I was saying, well, we could eat, you know, grass fed, grass finished and things like that. And then he was saying, well, no, actually there's not much difference between the toxins and grass fed, grass finished versus conventional because of how saturated these persistent organic pollutants are. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting. So maybe, maybe we should, well, A, I need to look into that more and B, maybe that means we should actually leaner meat, you know, regardless. And so then for episode 414, which I realized comes before that, but we recorded it out of order. You'll have to listen to that episode because we, I went down the rabbit hole trying to find the studies on this. It wasn't very promising, basically, basically there, there does seem to be on the one hand, there does seem to be similar compounds in animal fat, even if it's grass finished organic. I do think it's slightly less, but either way it sounds like going leaner with the meat in particular can actually reduce your exposure to those compounds. But then it's ironic because then there's things like fish where the main, you know, problem with fish is mercury. And that's actually preferentially stored in protein, not in fat. So going leaner with fish doesn't really address the mercury problem. It's so, and the reason I bring this up is because like you were saying, there's so much information out there and so many different conflicting perspectives that, well, A, to tie into the earlier theme, it could be overwhelming or B, it could be empowering because it means, you know, we're always learning and we're always finding what works for us personally. Yeah. So I'm not trying to scare people away from eating, you know, fatty, grass fed, grass finished meat. I personally still think it's really healthy. So I differ a little bit, but it was a really interesting conversation. You'll have to listen and let me know what you think.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, because I mean, one of the cool things about Mindy Pels was that she took it beyond just the fast like a girl, and she just recently released a book called Eat Like a Girl, and it really is composed of a lot of vegan or vegetarian recipes, which I wasn't expecting. I was expecting, I guess, because of the focus on protein, I was expecting more meat-based meals.

So when I started to make these foods, I was like, well, this is way out of my comfort zone, number one, because I wasn't, I'm not a vegetarian. But number two, it exposed me to the possibilities of eating more vegetarian meals, because I don't, like I wasn't, I'm just not familiar with like, eating things like tofu and tempeh, and just understanding how to prepare these foods so that they're not like going to attack your, you know, metabolism, like, you know, the different toxins that come from eating plants, like that I wasn't even aware of before I learned about this, you know, the things that kind of create different blockages in your body, like spinach and kale, I guess I used to think, okay, the more the better and now I'm like, okay, but not if it's not cooked, oxalates, yeah, oxalates, don't cook it too much, you know, cook it enough where you're breaking down the oxalates so that you know, you can eat some of these foods for the nutritional value. So it's, it's, again, it's tricky understanding just based navigating the foods that you eat, and which ones are safest to eat, and which ones you really have to understand how to prepare them or pair them with other foods in order for them to be, you know, the safest way to eat them. So yeah, I've gone from like, learning about fasting to now I'm getting into, you know, the nutrition side of things and the strength training side of things. So it's, it's just evolving, which is why I guess I consider myself like, recreational bio hacker, because I'm trying these different things without, you know, too much like concern about like, the effects, like, I just want to see what will happen and then, you know, kind of pivot from there.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that approach. That is something I remember from interviewing and reading her book, Dr.

Peltz is she's, she's on the lower protein side of things, which I personally, I mean, I feel like it's obvious if people listen to this show, we, I just think a focus on protein is so, so important. I just think it's the most nourishing thing for our body, especially when it's paired with fasting, because, you know, you have the, the fasting period to reduce MTOR and IGF-1, these signaling pathways for growth and stimulate, like you were mentioning, autophagy and stimulate all these repair systems in the body. And then when you eat, that's when you're doing the actual repair and you need that protein for, for not only for growth of muscle and support muscle mass, which is so key for health and longevity and metabolic health, but also for just hunger. Like, you know, a lot of people struggle with hunger and there's, you know, this protein leverage hypothesis that we will feel hungry until we meet our protein needs. So yeah, protein is definitely one where there's all different opinions. How much protein do you try to get daily?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I don't really track. I mean, I kind of like look at the foods that I have and I know kind of in my head, like how much a serving has. And so I kind of, I don't kind of, I do have, I have an issue with hunger. So I really do actually take in probably more than maybe somebody else who like my husband, for instance, he's like, he, I mean, again, he's men and women fast differently and metabolize differently. So I don't mean to compare the two, but I definitely see a difference in our hunger levels.

And so I definitely need to eat additional protein to get, you know, to feel satiated. And, you know, I was doing butter in my coffee for a while. And, and I think for a while, like it worked, but then I found that, you know, it was probably an added calorie intake that maybe I didn't need. And that I, if I, you know, fat, maybe with more fat with my first meal around lunchtime that I was, you know, that was okay. That was a different sort of sort of composition of a meal versus having the fat early in the day. Cause I did want to have benefit from the, the, the fasted workout. I like the fasted workout. I it's, I don't work out for very long cause I don't have a lot of time, but I, you know, from, from what I'm learning, you don't really have to work out for very long if you're, if you're doing, you know, targeted exercise. So I feel like a fasted workout feels really good, you know, for my body. So yeah, no more butter in my coffee, but I'm still doing the MCT oil in my coffee. I love that. I love the creaminess of it. It just gives it a different taste and texture. It feels a little bit more like a kind of a meal. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, but then I definitely like scoops of cottage cheese or grass fed, you know, Greek yogurt later on with, I guess in the evening, I'll have that with berries to, you know, kind of calm down for the evening and feel full. And so that I can have a good night's sleep too. That helps.

Melanie Avalon
well. Cottage cheese and berries are two of my favorite things. That's amazing. I love that.

Well, actually, okay, where do I want to go from here? So, well, I wanted to touch on something that you, so you mentioned earlier about your daughter trying the not drinking thing. I feel like the whole sober curious movement is very popular right now. In your intake form, you're talking about, what were you saying about, about alcohol?

Pamela Wakeman
haul that I guess about six months into my fasting I started hearing about dry farm wines and I was like oh I'm all over that you know because now I can drink wine and not feel guilty about it or whatever you know the sugar you know was it was not the added sugar that you would get from just a wine off the shelf and I never really paid much attention I would just get whatever wine was you know affordable at my local you know a wine shop or whatever but then I started doing the dry farm wines and I really enjoyed it but I realized that for me personally it was too much that I needed to just in general I needed to cut back on any alcohol not all but definitely during the week and like really be mindful of what I was taking and like you know going to restaurants and all their beautiful cocktail menus it was like you know okay you know there were like treats and you know instead of a dessert I would have a cocktail I'm like what am I doing like this is this is this is too much it just feels like too much and it feels like I'm standing still like I'm not I'm making all these progress forward with with fasting and with you know healing my body and then I'm going and you know drinking these drinks that I don't really need but I'm doing it because it looks fun and you know I want to relax on the weekends and so I just had to find different ways like different alternative drinks like kava drinks and adaptogenic drinks to kind of replace you know because I still had that habit of like maybe going for a cocktail in the evening but just replace it with something a little bit less less alcohol because the so many calories and alcohol I was just I felt like I was just like I wasn't progressing forward so it for me it was really a blocker that I had to address and I hear people talk about like oh we should only have a glass of wine at night it's like a glass like who has a glass of wine I always have like at least two glasses of wine like and that is like you know if it's like 200 calories of glass then like that's my whole workout today and like I'm not working out so that I can burn calories so I can have more wine like this is not what this is supposed to be this is about moving forward and getting you know for longevity sake now you know this is about feeling better not just standing still so I I guess I fought it for a long time Melanie I wanted to keep my wine and keep my tonics and I had to finally admit that this is what was holding me back so I just think that you know the women that I coach I I'm going to be part of it like oh you should probably cut out you know cut down on your alcohol no you should really cut down on your alcohol but you know of all the drinks that I love the most you know I do love the dry farm wine

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I obviously love this topic. And I think it's so individual. And people really have to know themselves and find what works for them.

And the dry farm wines piece is, if you are drinking, it's such a key, it's such a key difference. Because if I were to drink because I do drink wine every night. And if I, if I were to drink conventional wine, I would just feel horrible. And I can't believe I was like, I was in a phase like in college. And after when I was just drinking like cheap wine all the time. And I literally could not do that. Now I would feel so unwell the next day.

So I have to stick to my, my dry farm wines. I actually even went, it's funny yesterday, I went to total wine and more I was like, I'm going to see if I can find wines that seem to meet dry farm wines criteria, which is organic, low alcohol, 12.5% or less free of added sugar free of added sulfites. I wouldn't be able to know if it was tested for mold and toxins and all that stuff. I literally stood in the aisle, I was probably there for like, and I knew where to go. I was like, I'm gonna go to the French section, I'm gonna look at the Loire Valley, I'm gonna find like a low alcohol gamay. That's organic. Like I got this. I was there for like 45 minutes and couldn't find anything. So yeah, there's definitely something special to dry farm wines if you are drinking. The thing I was thinking from your format you're filling out was you were saying, because I'm glad you put this in here, because I have heard people say this, which is that drinking alcohol will hijack the liver for detox for the next 22, 72 hours. So the body will not use the fasting window to burn fat.

So I don't know where that idea started. I think maybe that's the case for some people. I can say definitively, at least from my experience that at the very least, it's not always true. And the reason I know that is because I have had a glass of wine every night with the exception of I did try not drinking for a year to see if I felt any better. I did not. So I was like, well, we tried that. I know that I've pretty much had a glass of wine every night for like a decade, minus that one year. And during that decade, I have definitely gained and lost weight. So that negates that idea always being true, if that makes sense. Like basically, I know I've lost weight. I know I burn fat while having wine in the evenings.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, and it feels like you should, right? Because it's like not a sugar alcohol.

I mean, it's a sugar alcohol, but it's not the added sugar, right? Like so you, it really is just the alcohol the liver is burning down or breaking down.

Melanie Avalon
which it would burn first, too.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah and if your body's used to like the same amount like every night I feel like your body adapts so it's probably breaking it down quicker that's my opinion because I guess on days where you drink more and where you know where you've had more than you normally would then maybe that would would be the case you need extra time to recover or your your liver would have more time that it needed to recover but then you could also take some charcoal activated charcoal and that could help you know speed things along too which I totally believe in now since I've been using that you know when I eat things like lots of carbs that I didn't mean to eat but you know they were the only thing that was available or something like that.

Melanie Avalon
I think we might have talked about that on the show, that idea before. It's really interesting.

I mean, it does make me think, cause I recently interviewed, I haven't aired it yet, but Dr. Kate Shanahan, I had her on the show again. She's the one who wrote deep nutrition and the fat burn fix. And then her most recent book is called dark calories. She's the person who really made the whole idea of seed oils being a problem. She's the one who kind of shown the flashlight on that in the beginning and is continuing to do so. But she does talk a lot in that book about how, you know, some people with metabolic issues and insulin resistance and stuff, how they almost like never burn fat, they're pretty much, you know, always burning sugar. So I could definitely see situations where with certain signaling, certain people may not burn fat in the fast. So I can see, basically I can see how it might be a thing, but I don't, but saying like, Oh, if you drink, then you're not going to burn fat for 72 hours. That's just not a true statement, like across the board for everybody.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, okay. That's good to know. I'm glad that you brought that up because that was a fear of mine for sure.

Melanie Avalon
You heard of Z-biotics? Yes. Mm-hmm. Sure. I'm obsessed with them too. I just found them sort of a few months ago and they're super cool. It's like a GMO probiotic that breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the toxic byproduct of alcohol in the stomach. It's... Yeah, I love that. But in any case, I super applaud you for knowing what works for you and, you know, really it requires a lot of self-awareness and commitment. So, kudos to you.

What type of cava do you have?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I was drinking, I was trying Trucava, which is a product that was on store shelves. It's like a soda, but I already use element, element tea for hydration. So I thought, you know, I could make a cocktail out of element tea and soda water and cava and kind of create my own concoctions so that I could have different flavors when I wanted them and just experiment with like different dosages of the cava, so it would be like a tincture of cava from, you know, health food store and just see what kind of effect it would have and, you know, how much I really needed to feel and to get an effect that I liked without feeling too sort of out of it, you know, because I still have things, you know, I still have to be productive even at the end of the day. So I don't want to feel like, okay, I'm done.

I'm just going to go sit on the couch now, you know? But cava, you know, ashwagandha, those are the two main ones. And yeah, I think those are the two main ones for drinks that I would use.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. There's something I want to, there's a brand, I haven't tried it yet. They're supposed to send it to me. I need to follow up because I'm dying to try it.

But they make a product called, I think it's called like hard ketones. And basically, I haven't tried it yet. But I watched their video with Tim Ferriss about it. And apparently, I didn't know this. Apparently, there's a ketone that it's not. Okay, I don't want to like say it wrong. It's like an intoxicating ketone. So like basically, it will give you a buzz. But it's not alcoholic. And it's literally just a ketone. And they've turned this into a drink. I'm very intrigued by this concept. Because I always thought of ketones as like the energy substrate, not an intoxicating type feeling, not to say we should all get intoxicated all the time, but basically getting like this, you know, this feeling that you might be desiring from alcohol, getting it from ketones in this drink. So I will report back listeners because I'm very intrigued by this brand. One thing okay, so going back to the fasting, one thing I definitely wanted to touch on is I love that you when you start so when you started fasting, you used the prep for the surgery as a way to jumpstart your fast. Is that right? Like that you had to fast anyways? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
That's true, I did. I had a surgery coming up for my hip and the timing was such that I could use that as an opportunity because the doctors make you fast for varying lengths of time before surgery. So it seemed like, okay, I'm doing it anyway, I'm just gonna keep it going. And that concept of being able to speed up the recovery, kind of sort of that momentum kept me going.

So I didn't need any like fasted snacks or any kind of special, not special, but like I didn't take in anything else other than water because I wanted to see if this was like really going to help me heal faster. Hard to say because the surgeries these days are so, you know, amazing that, you know, especially for hips, so you're up and about in like a couple of days anyway. But yeah, I mean, I was definitely, gosh, I think I was running a race by Thanksgiving, I wanna say. So yeah, I think that, I think it definitely would have helped. I also had COVID like three weeks after. I fasted through that with element and water and slept. And so, I mean, I don't know. I definitely didn't have it for very long, maybe three days, but I had it and it went away and I felt, you know, great afterwards. So I feel like it's also a great way to sort of heal from like colds and, you know, as long as you're getting, I guess fluids, you know, I didn't feel that it was necessary to eat anything. And if it's gonna make me heal faster then what it's all the better.

Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. I loved reading that from you because it's such a similar response that I have, which is basically if there's ever something that would cause me to not be eating. So for example, like prepping for a colonoscopy or like you said, getting COVID, I'm like, yay, this, I see it as like as a, as a way to have a longer fast. It's actually sort of exciting. I mean, being sick isn't exciting and colonoscopies aren't exciting, but the longer fast is, is nice.

So I love that. It's kind of like a little hack that people can do. So for me, for example, fasting, I do the same thing fasting wise every day. And I have essentially for a decade with very little deviation. I don't think that's for everybody. I think a lot of people like you were mentioning earlier, do well with switching things up and you seem to be pretty comfortable with, you know, switching up your fast and finding what works for you. So, so how do you do that? Like how often do you switch around your fasting protocol? How planned is it versus not planned? Do you ever not fast? What is that like for you?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I definitely take a day where I don't fast. I guess I try to, for the most part, do five days of fasting and then two days I'll switch it up and it's usually the weekends.

So it depends if I'm training for something or not. I'm mainly, I'm pushed to like, I like to get to the 17 hour mark because Mindy Pels has different lengths of fast that she talks about and really has research behind. Then she says the 17 hours is really like a sweet spot for autophagy, for starting autophagy. And so I try to get at least a 17 hours, if not, you know, to 20 hours to get that effect. So sometimes I'll do like a one meal a day, if I'm not, you know, if I was one of my days and then one day I won't fast at all. That's pretty much, you know, just because I like to have dinner, you know, with my husband in the evenings, that's kind of our time to catch up. I feel like that meal, I don't want to skip on. So it's much easier to skip out, skip the earlier meals because I'm so busy during the day working. And again, I think that just switching it up is really key because yeah, I feel like the body sort of gets used to a certain like schedule of, you know, a pattern. Then the progress kind of stalls a little bit.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that you can do that so intuitively. Does your husband fast? No.

Pamela Wakeman
But I have been switching over to ketogenic cooking. And so he'll eat the dinners that I make that are keto.

But he still, yeah, he likes to have his breakfast. So he doesn't fast. But if he did, he'd probably disappear.

Melanie Avalon
He's very lean. And how do you find doing things socially? Does it ever become an issue? Do people give you grief? Do you adapt pretty easily? What is that like?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, like, socially, I'll try to save it my non fasting day for a day that I'm gonna, you know, go out with friends, I'll eat whatever, you know, is there. And, you know, right now, I'm enjoying the fact that I'm getting a lot of great Mexican food down here in Tucson, which is new for me. So I'll take advantage of that.

Yeah, I mainly like will try if it's not something that I'm planned for, I don't get grief, and it's pretty easy for me to sort of just like, if I'm going to go some to some of his house or to a party, I'll bring, you know, my own, like, food that, you know, I'm going to share, but it'll be food that I know I can eat. So that really makes it easier for me to, you know, eat, you know, while I'm there. And then, you know, I can usually have my choice of different kinds of drinks. So somehow I can I make it work. And it doesn't seem to bother anybody. I think that I did probably get well, I, my daughters say that I probably lost maybe too much weight in the beginning. Because, again, it was sort of like the momentum like just like I was just continuing continuing just to see how far I could take it. And I felt like I was doing okay. But like, they're like, when they saw me and came to visit for Thanksgiving, they're like, Yeah, you should probably like, you know, even it out a little bit now, maybe cut back a little bit on the cut fasting, because you look really good.

But you know, you don't need to lose any more weight. So, so I think there is a tipping point, you know, where, because the, the ketones or the ketosis, like, it does make you feel really good. And it does make you feel like you have a lot of energy. And so moving past a meal does kind of feel effortless. So just being mindful of the fact that like, Oh, yeah, you still need to get that nutrition in though, because that's really what's, you know, gonna make your body performance fast. So rate it rated it a little bit. You

Melanie Avalon
if you need to, yeah. Yeah, so you said you lost around 20 pounds since September?

Pamela Wakeman
Since September, yeah. I mean, I started back in, I started HRT, like your hormone replacement therapy around June. And I swim quite a bit. So I lost about 15 pounds from just the hormone replacement and the additional exercise.

And then when I found fasting, that really like was the additional, I guess, trigger that I needed to lose the extra, you know, weight that I gained over the, I guess, you know, over 20 years, I really did just sort of, because I did, didn't pay much attention. And I was raising kids and I was cooking for them. And I just didn't pay much attention to, to myself. Really, I wasn't taking care of myself. And that's one of the great things about menopause is that, you know, you do find, finally find the time to take care of yourself and realize that your importance

Melanie Avalon
I love that. And I will say to the HRT point, I recently posted in the Facebook group, a post asking people's opinion on HRT. And I don't think I have ever had so many enthusiastic responses.

Like literally, there was, well, A, so many responses, B, every single one was like shouting to the rooftops about how it changed their life. So I was like, oh, I need to dive into this some more. So I'm glad that that was really helpful for your experience.

Pamela Wakeman
I did get the same, I don't know if this is a thing, but if you've heard of this before, but I went to my doctor and she gave me a hard time. I took the hormone testing or the blood test that said you're definitely in menopause, your hormone levels definitely show signs of that you've been in menopause for a while, so it was probably 55 at the time or 54. So I thought the next, you know, obvious next step would be to go on hormone replacement therapy. It was kind of tough to get her to agree to it and so I really had to kind of go outside of my, you know, normal doctors and go online and find, you know, like an online prescriber who would be able to do that for me.

You know, there's lots of them out there now, but at the time it seemed kind of risky because I didn't know anybody else who was doing that kind of thing, but now it's just so much more prevalent because, you know, there is this hesitancy from doctors to just sort of prescribe it because of whatever risk factors that came along with like studies that were back in the 90s that had these different sort of like alerts to that women like shouldn't be taking hormone replacement therapy because of breast cancer risks or blood clotting risks and things like that. So I just felt like I was a good candidate for it. I knew my health, you know, history and I didn't have the kind of risks that they were talking about. So in order to get what I needed, I had to go outside of my normal doctors. I'm glad I did because I got the help I needed and now I'm looking for new doctors.

Melanie Avalon
I should honestly try to do an episode on this and Peter Atea, I don't know if you listen to him. You said you do. Yes. Yeah. So he has so many amazing episodes on this, which is basically, there was like this study that drew conclusions about HRT and breast cancer in women, but it was completely like just not accurate in it and how it presented the risk. And it basically made all these doctors fearful of HRT when the risks just from what, if you listen to him, you'll just be like, okay, they're just not there.

There's like really a lot of benefits that can come. And so it's interesting, especially because pharmaceuticals usually are so easy to be pushed. It's really interesting to me that it's taken so long to come back from that study and the findings of that study. Yeah. Kudos to you too. Being like, no, I need this.

Pamela Wakeman
Well, I mean, I had an x-ray when I was having my hip done and they noticed a fracture in like in my back. I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to him for any issues with my back, but he noticed this and he said, you need to go get a DEXA scan to find out what's going on there.

And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what is happening? Like, I don't understand, you know, why my bone, what's happening to me? Why are my bones suddenly like, and you know, obviously women in menopause, their bones start to, you know, there's bone density is a thing. And so I realized that taking the HRT actually is really good for bone density. And one of the best reasons to take HRT is to maintain bone density, you know, the years, you know, as you get older. So even if it wasn't for, you know, the other symptoms that I had, I might still take it just for that reason alone because of the fracture that I had in my back. So there's that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I'm so, so glad you found that out. Okay. Well, this has been so, so amazing. I think it's really, really empowering for people to hear and just like, I really, really love your mindset and approach to all of this. It's so, I love how you like seek out all these things and you try them and you find what works. It's just really, really amazing and incredible.

What would you like to leave listeners with when people ask you about intermittent fasting for people who, you know, are struggling or haven't even tried it? Like what is your, your big go-to advice or final thought for, for people on fasting?

Pamela Wakeman
It's not something to be feared, it's fasting is something that empowers you to take control of your own health instead of like leaving your health choices and decisions in the hands, all of your choices in the hands of your doctor. You do have choices that you can make on your own and this one has so many potential benefits that it's at least worth a try, you know, move into it slowly and there's no need to rush into it.

I'm one of those people who like wanted to go all in full, you know, 72 hours all at once and that will not work. It just won't work. I mean, you can power through but you'll never want to fast again after that if that's your first experience with it. That's just it's too much too soon. So definitely just try it and you might be surprised for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. I love this so much.

Well, thank you so much, Pamela. Thank you for coming here and sharing your story and all the things. It was, I really had a wonderful time. It was awesome.

And Pamela, how can people best follow your work, all the things?

Pamela Wakeman
Yes, I have a website for Pamela Wakeman Wellness, where I am a certified health coach with open source wellness. And I am also working toward my credential for board certification for health coaching.

And one of the requirements for the certification is that I offer free health coaching to anybody who is looking for health coaching or wants to try it to see if that's something that's for them. And so I thought I'd offer, you know, at least three free sessions to get them started and it's all volunteer basis. But if it's something that, you know, your audience is interested in, I definitely have, like I said, the certification for the Fast Like a Girl coaching, but I'm also health and wellness coaching. So anything under the gamut, I'm definitely, you know, able to accommodate.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So how can people do they just go to your website or how can people contact you for that?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, you can email me at Pamela at PamelaWakemanWellness.com or phwakeman at gmail.com. Either one will hit me and let me know if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, congrats in advance on that.

And for listeners, we will put all of that in the show notes as well. So Pamela Wakeman, wellness.com. The show notes will be at I a podcast.com slash episode 421. And we talked about a lot of things. So definitely check out those show notes. There'll be a full transcript there as well. And if you would like to be a guest on the show, we would love, love to hear your story and have you. So you can actually go to I a podcast.com slash submit and there is a submission form there. So check out that link. And if you have questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I a podcast.com. All right, Pamela. Well, thank you again. So so much. I am sending you all the love and all the good vibes on your journey and we'll have to talk again in the future. Great. I look forward to it. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes, and artwork, library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Mar 29

Episode 415 – Special Guest Matthew Lederman, Finding The Diet That Works For You, Low Protein Benefits, Whole Foods (The Store And Food!), Reducing Added Oils, Toxins In Animal Products, Plant Based Diets, Finding Calm, Stopping Stress With webe kälm, Parenting Paradigms Shift, And More!

webeKalm.com | webeParents.com | connectiondocs.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 415 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SPECIAL GUEST BIO

Matthew Lederman, MD, is a board-certified Internal Medicine Physician and a pioneering thought leader in holistic health. Renowned for his innovative integration of plant-based nutrition, Nonviolent Communication (NVC), trauma-informed care, and lifestyle medicine, Dr. Lederman's work highlights the profound interconnectedness of physical, emotional, and relational well-being.
Dr. Lederman is the co-host of the webe Parents podcast, a platform dedicated to equipping parents with tools and insights to foster emotional connection, resilience, and well-being in their families. His latest book, Wellness to Wonderful, weaves together medical science, psychology, spirituality, and life wisdom to guide individuals toward lasting health, vibrancy, peace, and joy.
He has co-authored six books, including the New York Times Bestseller Forks Over Knives Plan, and was featured in the acclaimed documentary Forks Over Knives. Through these works, he has shared his transformative approach to wellness with audiences around the globe.

In addition to his roles as a clinician, educator, speaker, and corporate advisor, Dr. Lederman has served as Vice President of Medical Affairs at Whole Foods Market, lectured for eCornell, and provided adjunct faculty instruction in medical schools. He also co-created the webe kälm device, designed to promote emotional regulation and soothe the nervous system.

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Books:

The Forks Over Knives Plan: How to Transition to the Life-Saving, Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet

WELLNESS TO WONDERFUL: 9 Pillars for Living Healthier, Longer, and with Greater Joy

The Whole Foods Diet: The Lifesaving Plan for Health and Longevity

Plus, my listeners can get 25% off webe kälm at ifpodcast.com/webe!

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

WEBE KÄLM

Get 25% off webe kälm at ifpodcast.com/webe.

MD LOGIC

Get 10% off MD Logic's Health Marine Collagen with code ifpodcast at ifpodcast.com/collagen.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 415 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 415, and I am here today with a very, very special guest. I am so excited about today's episode. So the backstory on today's show, I met Dr. Matthew Letterman, I don't even know now, probably a few years ago, I think, because I've had him on the Melanie Adlon biohacking podcast twice. The backstory is I received information about his work, and I was an immediate yes, because I was so familiar with his background and what he does. So he has co-authored six books, including The New York Times bestseller Forks Over Knives Plan, and he was also in the acclaimed documentary Forks Over Knives. He also authored the book The Whole Foods Diet, and he did that with John Mackey, who's the co-founder and former CEO of Whole Foods. And I'd read that book before I explored Forks Over Knives, so I was super familiar. And when his people reached out to me, it was for his new book at the time, which was called Wellness to Wonderful, Nine Pillars for Living Healthier, Longer, and with Greater Joy. So I had him on the show. We talked about that book. That book was incredible. It was such a holistic approach to health. It went into all the things to work on, you know, when it comes to health. So diet and nutrition and sleep, which Matt and I were just talking about before this, as well as a lot of mindset and social things. And I, because when I started reading that book, Wellness to Wonderful, I wasn't anticipating just how much of it was going to be the mental, emotional, social side of things. So I was really interested in that. So that was a great interview. I will put a link to it in the show notes. And also during all of that, I learned about Matt's incredible products called WeBeCalm, which we will definitely talk about today. It's a really cool device that helps you gamify breathing exercises for kids and adults. I actually gave one to my mom for Christmas. And it's a way to just instantly bring some calm into your life. So that's really amazing.

Melanie Avalon

So I had him back on the show for both that, as well as his podcast, the WeBe Parents podcast, which he co-hosts with his wife, Alana, they actually both wrote the Wellness to Wonderful as well. That was a lot. Matt, by the way, he's also a board certified internal medicine physician, a specialist in something called Nonviolent Communication, which I bet we will talk about in today's show. And he's just super savvy, super knowledgeable and so many of these tools and techniques that can really boost people's health. So I knew we had to have him on this show. So Dr. Letterman, Matt, thank you so much for being here.

Matthew Lederman

Wow, what an introduction. I hope I can live up to all that. That was amazing.

Melanie Avalon

No, no, you definitely, definitely will. I've just so enjoyed having you on the shows and really, really appreciate your work. I was thinking about this before we started. I don't think we actually talked and we might have, but in any of my prior interviews with you, I'm really curious, you worked for, what was your position with Whole Foods for like a long time? What was your position there?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I was the vice president of medical affairs there.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that's okay. So that's like a very impressive title. I wasn't even aware that that was a role at Whole Foods. Like what did you do in that role? That's so cool.

Matthew Lederman

Me and Alona, who's my partner at work and in life, worked for them for 10 years. We helped them open medical centers that treated employees with this comprehensive paradigm. There was doctors and more time with patients. There was a more holistic team with health coaches. There was acupuncture, mental health support. And then we partnered, I mean, as nurse practitioners to different level providers. And then we partnered with like-minded healthcare systems that were focusing on optimizing health and wellbeing and minimizing overtreatment and all of the harmful, unnecessary care that happens in a lot of the conventional healthcare systems. And then we would get specialists that also were focused on dealing with the overtreatment problem. A lot of people think the key to getting good specialists is someone that knows about the obscure diagnosis, but more often than not, the bigger problem is finding specialists that don't overtreat, which can only hurt people and doesn't help them. So it was trying to put together a network. We helped them create an insurance plan that incentivized this type of care and put all that together with them.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. Okay. That is so cool. By the over-trading, do you mean specialists where it's like if you have a hammer, everything's a nail, like they see the thing everywhere or actually over-trading once they diagnose it?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, so there's a lot of things that like blood pressure, it's used blood pressure for an example, they'll give you way too much medication to try and get your number significantly low and make your number look normal. But data shows that if you try to give someone a normal looking blood pressure number with medication, you actually can increase strokes, heart attacks and death. So if your blood pressure is really high, medication is great to get it down as far as decreasing strokes. If it's getting a little bit lower, but getting it to look normal would be considered over treatment because the data shows that it can't help you, it only hurts you. But everybody thinks a normal number means normal health. And if you're getting normal numbers with medication and not die in lifestyle, then that's actually harmful. So that would be an example. There's a screening for cancer, a lot of screenings, there's harms that are not explained. So we inflate the benefit of screening and we under represent the harms from screening so that people can't make an informed decision. So there's two back surgeries, another one way too much happening, using back surgery to treat pain doesn't work. And yet, millions and millions of dollars are spent on doing that to patients who just feel terrible and it doesn't help them.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, statins, would that be one maybe?

Matthew Lederman

Statins for secondary prevention, like if you've had heart attacks or strokes, the data's pretty good. But a lot of people take statins and think, oh, my cholesterol number's down, I'm good, I can eat whatever I want because I'm on the statin. And it doesn't work that way. So just because you have a normal cholesterol number with a statin doesn't mean you have the health of someone who has a normal number because of diet and lifestyle. So they do benefit people, particularly if they've had a heart attack or stroke or something like that before. But it's definitely not, to me it's something you do as an adjunct, not the primary focus of the treatment.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that actually happened to my friend yesterday. He had a heart attack and he didn't see it coming at all and he had completely normal cholesterol levels.

Matthew Lederman

And that's the thing we'll tell people, we'll say, we don't know what normal is for you. I know what your normal is when I put you on a whole food plant-based diet and some exercise, and after six to 12 weeks, I see what your cholesterol does. Because I've had people who have a cholesterol of 200, and they go down to 180 on these diet and lifestyles, and that's a normal cholesterol for them. I've had people that are 140 total cholesterol, and they get down to 190. So 140, even though for most people they'd say, that's great for this person on the American diet with a 140, they actually needed to be down at 90. So it's an indicator, it's not a definition of health, it's an indicator of how your health is doing. Given the other circumstances though, you need to take those into account.

Melanie Avalon

to clarify that was for the employees at Whole Foods that could engage with it.

Matthew Lederman

Yes, that was for the employees, correct?

Melanie Avalon

That's so cool. Did that continue on after you left?

Matthew Lederman

It was great. It showed a 20% reduction in health care cost, health care spend. And then it was Whole Foods was bought by Amazon and it's just a big, big company. And they were looking into, they were started expanding it. When we left, it was sort of, we showed that the pilots worked and they wanted to expand it. But I was, me and Alona were not as excited about just reproduction. We wanted to be more in the creative side of things and adding to it. And we also wanted to expand into what we call connection medicine. And basically once Amazon came and some other things started changing, we decided to go out and do what we wanted to do, but do it on our own so we didn't have to work within the confines of a big corporation and legal systems and things like that. So now I think Amazon, it's so big, they wanted something that they could create and spread very quickly. And this was more grassroots. So I don't know if they continued it in any capacity, but we left five years ago. So I'm not sure what's happened since then.

Melanie Avalon

Gotcha. Yeah, I'm I'm super curious because I've been a whole foods girl for quite a while and it's been interesting to see especially with the Amazon merger and the change and everything. It's been interesting to see it. It's definitely I appreciate now that I can use all my Amazon benefits and it's actually helped. It seems some prices and things like that. I always wonder what's happening behind the scenes though with everything. So very interesting. Okay, so you hinted at it a lot, which is that there's so much to health beyond just like diet and beyond just, you know, what you see in your blood work and things like that. Before we get more into that, I am super curious. This is the intermittent fasting podcast. What are your thoughts? Because you're you come from a whole food plant based diet approach to to health and wellness. What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting for health?

Matthew Lederman

I think the most important thing is that you eat whole plant foods and you minimize or eliminate the processed foods and that includes extracted added oils, extracted added sweeteners, added sodium as much as possible. And the same thing with animal products. You don't have to be, for a majority of chronic illnesses, you don't have to be vegan, but we eat way too many animal products. And there's a lot of reasons that eating no animal products can be a good thing, but regardless of what you decide to do on that end of your own, people have to eat significantly less animal products. I don't know what your thoughts are, Melanie, on animal products or what your audience, do you have a sense of what your audience's view is on animal products?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was just thinking how I'm excited to be having this conversation because I feel like we heavily, the majority of the guests that come on are often in like the paleo or you know, keto type world. And then my former co-host and my current co-host, we're all very big supporters. So I like to say that I am dietary agnostic. I'm dietary agnostic in that I think people can follow diets that work for them. So some people do do well on vegan. I think a lot of people struggle to get enough protein or certain forms of nutrients that might be higher in animal-based foods. Some people do really well on a more animal-based diet. Some people do well on, you know, a very omnivore type approach. So I think it's about finding the diet that works for you. But then I think when you step back from that, there are some key tenets that apply. So and you probably just said all of them, like whole foods, so, you know, cutting out these processed foods, avoiding these additives, this added, you know, sugar and flavors and added sodium and just all these different additives and preservatives, just not good. And then the third thing is I do think it's really important to focus on protein. So that's why I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on protein because I think people get very confused, especially on this show because we talk all the time about the importance of protein. How do you feel about protein intake?

Matthew Lederman

My view on protein is probably going to upset most of your viewers. So I'm trying to make sure that I say clearly up front is that, you know, what feels best for your body. And when I work with clients, ultimately, that's what I want to do is help them check into their bodies and see what feels good. And then I also want them to isolate the variables. So sometimes they make a conclusion because they have compounding variables or there's confusion. For example, some people who start on a plant-based diet, the calorie density is significantly lower. So they can go from 2000 calories per pound to 500 calories per pound, which is a quarter of the calories per pound of food. And if you try to eat the same portion sizes over a period of days, you'll start to have calorie deficiency and you'll feel lower energy and fatigue and cravings. And then they'll go out and they'll say, it must be the protein. I need animal protein. And then they'll go out and eat a big burger, which is like a calorie bolus. And then they feel better. And they say, see, it was the animal products. And what I have to explain to them is you can eat animal products if you want, but what helped you there was the calorie bolus. And we need to adjust your diet to deal with the calorie deficiency. It's not an animal protein deficiency. And then they can still choose to eat animal products, but I want them to do it for the reasons, for the right reasons, if you will, but that makes sense. So I want to make sure people have information. They take that information can make an informed decision about what works best for them. So with that caveat, I tell people that protein should be the last thing you were, it's the first thing everybody's worried about. For me, it's the last thing. In fact, I'm working on ways to get less protein because I eat a whole food plant-based diet. I'm getting excessive amounts of protein. And when we're talking about protein, what we really care about is the essential amino acids. And I'm, I'm blowing away if because of my diet is full of whole foods, there's no added oils and sugars, which are, those are actually devoid of protein oils and sugars give you calories without any protein. So if your diet has a lot of oil and sugar, you can start to get, it's still probably hard, but you can still, you're definitely getting a significant portion of calories without any protein. I don't have that problem because all my calories come with essential amino acids because I'm getting them from whole plant foods. So the problem with too much protein is that you don't store it. It doesn't, it doesn't magically, you know, get stored in the body. It doesn't, you know, you can't eat protein and all of a sudden gets pushed into your biceps. It's floating around and your body eliminates it. So you'll, and that puts stress on the bones and the kidneys and the liver. And the more protein you have that you don't need, the more your body has to work to eliminate it.

Matthew Lederman

And then I have a whole slideshow that I take people through to show them how they determined what is the minimum safe requirements. And then what they do is they put a buffer in there. So the minimum like different organizations that have recommendations for protein for populations, they put a safety buffer in there because each person's a little bit different, but they put something in the, you know, so they'll double the amount that made that the person who had the biggest protein requirement of the group in a test study, they would double that amount. So that's more than double what most people need. So if you're getting what's quote unquote, the minimum requirement, you're still getting a safety buffer of twice as much as you need. So knowing that even if you're getting the, you're just meeting the minimum requirements, you're going to do fine. The recommendation for populations with these minimum requirements is basically saying, if we make this requirement to a population, almost all of them not going to get into any trouble if they follow that. And that's the answer. Yes, they're all going to do fine. So knowing that if I'm working out more, I'm going to eat more calories because I'm going to be hungrier and because I'm burning more calories. And when I eat more calories, guess what? If they're whole plant foods and not oil or sugar, I'm getting more protein. So if I work harder and expend more energy, I'm going to eat more calories and I'm going to get more protein.

Melanie Avalon

I so appreciate this conversation and I think it's really helpful because what's really important to me in life is to interview and talk to people of all different perspectives because if not, I think we get really siloed and it can be hard to know if we're being biased or cherry picking or whatever it may be. So I really appreciate having this conversation. So the first point you made, I want to communicate that I understand it and I see it go the other way as well. So you made the example of how people, you know, might be needing calories so they eat a burger and then they think that they think it was like the protein that made them feel better but really they just needed the calories. I feel like that happens and then I feel like it also happens on the flip side where people might cut out, maybe they go completely plant-based or vegan and they cut out everything and they feel massively better and so then they think that going that restrictive on plant-based only was what it was but maybe it was cutting out all these other things and then in the future they might need to bring back selectively some animal-based products if they need certain nutrients that they're not able to get enough of. So I feel like it can happen both ways.

Matthew Lederman

What are those nutrients that people are worried about, would you say? Because I think they can, I think people can add some animal products back and still be healthy. But what other than B12, what nutrient would you say that people can only get if they eat animal products?

Melanie Avalon

Well, so the only one that they can quote, I guess only only get would be, like you said, be 12, but then people can have like spirulina.

Matthew Lederman

But just to clarify, B12 comes from bacteria. And the animals get the bacteria and make the B12. And then they accumulate the B12. So animal products are basically like a supplement. It's not like the animals make the B12 either. So to me, I just wanted to add this in about the B12, that it's made by bacteria. And then we can either get that from a supplement that stores this B12, or we could get it from an animal product that stores B12. Or we could, I guess, potentially stop eating really, really clean food and maybe get some B12 that way. Just to clarify, because when I said B12, I just wanted to make it clear that for anyone listening that I'm not saying that they can only get that from animal products or that animal products are producing it.

Melanie Avalon

Right and kind of kind of the same way like meat from animals they ate grass and turn it into meat so similar concept actually.

Matthew Lederman

Right. I just want to make sure vegans don't hear this and say, oh, I could eat lettuce and I'll get my B12. If you're vegan, they're going to get into trouble without a B12 supplement. So just to be careful that, yes, if you're eating animal products, sometimes they even need to supplement B12. Even eating animal products isn't enough for some people. But yeah, you definitely need to supplement B12. You can't get that. Even if you don't wash your lettuce, it's not enough.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'll do a shout out for my spirulina because it's super high in B12 and it is vegan. So there is a solution for people.

Matthew Lederman

Who don't want to eat animals or take pills, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

The other nutrients I'd be thinking, I think there's quite a few nutrients that are just easier for people to get and assimilate in the plant-based form. So EPA, DHA, so with their omega-3s, getting them in the plant that like from fish compared to converting it from ALA and plants, some people genetically might not have the best conversion there. And then with a lot of fat, soluble vitamins are easier to get in from animal products. Creatine from animal products and protein, I think if you are going and getting just direct animal meat, like lean protein, you're getting those amino acids in a form that I think will be a lot better for stimulating. I know it's ironic because we're talking about anti-aging and reducing protein for reducing IGF-1 and reducing mTOR and increasing AMPK for longevity. But when you're intentionally in the growth state and wanting to support muscle mass and support building your body, I think a lot of people can assimilate and get that better from animal-based protein, easier for them. And a lot of it depends on your gut microbiome, like how good they are at what they do with plants or not.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I mean, people can stay if your goal is to stimulate growth, it's a different goal than if your goal is health. And I think at that point, like you're saying, maybe you want to do if you manipulate the diet, when taking isolated protein powder is going to stimulate IGF one insulin like growth factor, which is going to stimulate growth, you know, getting hormones that are in your animal animal products is going to stimulate growth. So there's different ways we can stimulate growth. But I'm helping people, if you're trying to avoid cancer, stimulation of growth is something you want to avoid as well. So it's just a matter of balancing like, hey, what's your priority, and then helping people meet their needs around that party, because I don't want to come across like, I'm saying this is the right way to do it, and everything else is wrong, it's really important to check in with people, what they want, and what works for them. I just, I just also want to make sure I get people, even if it's another view, like there's some people say, oh, I'm getting older, I can't absorb animal products as well if they're from plants, or I can't absorb protein as well if it's from plants versus animals. That is not my experience. That's not what I see in the data. I know people will talk about creatine, even though that's naturally synthesized in the body from amino acids, arginine, glycine, and methionine, primarily in the liver, kidneys, pancreas. So it's not an essential nutrient. Now, if people for somehow take creatine and they say, wow, my life is amazing, and it's so much better. Like, that's great. I just want to make sure that people who feel great already don't say, oh my God, I need to eat animals, I need to eat creatine, and I need to get more protein, or I'm going to be hurting myself. I think that's what I worry about are the people that are feeling great that are then second guessing themselves. But if on the flip side, you're having a problem, or you somehow you do something and you feel better and it still feels safe enough, you knock yourself out. My worry with animal products is, hey, now it's cholesterol, no fiber, environmental contaminants that are in there that bioaccumulate as they eat up the food chain, and then just the effect of some of the animal products and the more acidic amino acids that tend to be from them with the sulfur-containing amino acids. So I tell people, if you feel better doing this, that's ultimately what you should trust your body. But if you're feeling great and you hear something and it makes you second-guess yourself, then I have a higher bar before I would switch anything.

Melanie Avalon

I so appreciate your communicating everything really clearly. I so appreciate your perspective. I love that you have this perspective, and I think it's really valuable that people hear all different sides of the coin. I really like the central tenet of listening to your body and finding what works for you and being smart about it and seeing what nutrients do you actually need. And we can go more into listening into your body. That's a good segue. But before that, I just have a few other thoughts. I am literally haunted by this protein aging question. Anytime I bring on anybody who remotely might have an idea about it, I ask them. So I've had a lot of people, I don't want to make it like camps, but I've had people with similar viewpoints to you that I've interviewed, so like Dr. Michael Gregor, Neil Bernard, and Walter Longo. And I'm always asking them this question about the trade-off with a high-protein diet and IGF-1, mTOR, aging, and then also this question which you referenced. And I'm curious. It does seem to be pretty accepted that after the age of 60, that people do need to increase their protein intake. But you're saying you've seen some people that don't need to increase as they get older?

Matthew Lederman

Do you see a question you're saying it to people over the age of 60?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think that's the cutoff that they give usually for when people need to increase their protein intake.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I don't I don't see that if if somebody I if people are meeting their caloric needs With whole plant foods meaning they're not getting a lot of processed foods I don't I don't know of a Disease some people will say oh their muscles are wasting and they're they start losing muscle mass They lose muscle mass because they're not active because they're not well There's there's some changes that happen just as you age But as far as a majority of the the the damage it will be When they are not as active they're not doing the resistance. They're not doing flexibility training all of which Are required if you don't use it you lose it, but it's not because they're not eating animal products It's now maybe there's this one, you know, i'm not going to say never But I don't think the majority of people as they get older 60 All of a sudden need to either eat animal products or somehow start supplementing protein powders or they need to Push the caloric intake beyond what they feel satisfied with because that's essentially what I would imagine what happened If you're saying that they're not you or experts are saying That when you hit 60 you need more protein Then to me what they're basically saying is don't listen to your hunger signals Even though you're you're good at you need more than that And or you need to start taking some A non-whole food some type of isolated protein powder Or you need to change the concentration of the protein. So instead of eating, you know You gotta gotta pack in all of these beans, let's say and I don't think any of those Are needed or make people healthier, but I do believe there's problems with people as they get older with not being active Not doing the flexibility training not or not doing it correctly or both And have not getting in the sun or getting the vitamin d so there's there's other issues But I would I would put my focus a little bit differently

Melanie Avalon

I agree completely that it could be causation correlation with people getting older and not getting the stimulus they need to, you know, maintain, definitely not grow, but at least maintain that muscle. The other thought would be, I can also see the issues that you mentioned with animal products like contaminants and things like that. I feel like that goes across the board though, like you could have, you know, pesticides and issues and plant-based foods. And then on the flip side, you could choose. So I pretty much just eat, you know, responsibly raised, toxin free for fish. I only eat low mercury fish because I'm very much concerned about heavy metals. So I think that can be navigated and then the cholesterol thing, I feel like that is more

Matthew Lederman

Could I speak to the environmental contaminant thing? Yeah. So the problem with anopox is that there's bioaccumulation. So things like dioxins and PBDEs, and also they accumulate and break down just based on their half-lives. So you can't eliminate them. They can be passed to the baby through the placenta and the milk, but essentially, you have to just wait for it to break down. When an animal, so let's say there's a grain that has so many parts per million of an environmental contaminant, and you eat that grain directly, versus if you eat an animal that had to eat 10 times or 20 times the amount of grain to get to be the big animal, you're basically eating 20 times in a serving of animal products. You're eating 20 times the amount of that environmental contaminant than you would if you just ate the grain directly. So again, I'm not saying people have to eat grains, but if they look up how biomagnification works, that's the problem with animal products. And eating even organic animal products, it's getting passed down from the mom to the kid. And it's just something that it's hard to avoid. And I wish there was a way where that wasn't an issue, but I have not seen any example where you don't have to worry about environmental contaminant, the biomagnification issue.

Melanie Avalon

So there are like measurable levels of these if you find the best of the best sources with organic pasture raised animal products.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, that doesn't it doesn't matter. And you can look I mean, we'll have to talk offline afterwards. I can show you there's even graphs where they look at this and they know. I mean, milk was one of the biggest as far as dioxin contamination, like it's just because it gets passed down for the mom into the milk. So keep every time it's getting more and more concentrated. So it's just it's just hard to avoid. And that's why you want to eat as low on the food chain as possible, or at least have as much calories as you can tolerate as low on the food chain. Like I said, I'm not against people eating animal products. I just want them to know about all this so they can decide, hey, which one is it worth it? And when is it not?

Melanie Avalon

I'm very concerned with the environmental toxins and especially in the seafood. So hard to get clean, yeah. I had mercury toxicity in the past and that was just from fish and after that I became so aware of it and I think people don't realize, they don't realize that if you have a piece of fish high up on the food chain on your plate, you can't see these toxins. So you can't see just how much can be in there and you don't realize that, oh, if I have a piece of swordfish that could have hundreds of the amount of mercury of like a piece of tilapia that's way lower on the food chain. Like if you look at the charts, it actually can be that much of a difference and that's just mercury. So yeah, it's upsetting.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's really tough, and it just makes the higher up on the food chain these toxins multiply. So the same way smaller fish to bigger fish is the same thing when you're eating a plant to an animal that's eating the plants. So the higher up you eat, it's a cow eats thousands of pounds of contaminated grain and grass over its lifetime, concentrating the pesticides and heavy metals in its meat and its milk. Just like you said, tuna, it eats hundreds of smaller fish that are all filled with mercury, making its flesh one of the most contaminated foods. So you can either choose to eat the small fish, which are going to have less, which unfortunately our oceans are so polluted, even the small fish have it, but at least it's not being concentrated when you eat the fish higher up. So basically plants don't store up the toxins in the same way. So eating the lower on the food chain, the fruit, vegetables, grains, legumes means fewer contaminants. And it's all because there being the pollution from the environment getting into all this stuff. So it's not the animals or the plant's fault. It's just what we have to deal with now.

Melanie Avalon

Could this be mitigated in part, since toxins are preferentially stored in fat, what if people ate very, very lean, you know, organically raised, free-range meat, like very lean, like bison and chicken breast? That might, I feel like that would eliminate a lot of the exposure to the toxins.

Matthew Lederman

Yes, even if someone eats lean, organic, free-range meat, they still accumulate more toxins than someone eating plant-based. It's organic, free-range animal, still eat plants, grains, or smaller animals that have been exposed to the environmental toxins. So that's the challenge, is if whatever they're eating has toxin, then they're going to accumulate it. And since they don't break down very easily, they build up in the animal's body over time, even if the feed is organic. So even lean meat still contains the toxins, but many toxins like dioxins and PCBs store in fat, but they also bind to muscle tissue. So even lean meat is not free from contamination. Mercury in fish is found directly in the muscle tissue, meaning that choosing lean fish doesn't reduce exposure. Poultry containing arsenic used historically in chicken feed, organic standards don't fully protect against environmental contamination. So you just can't get away from it if you're eating things that eat other things. You're just, you're going to be exposed to it, but you can at least minimize by not eating things that eat other things that eat other things. So the little fish still eat the algae that's contaminated. So the little fish are still accumulating, but then the big fish that eat the little fish are accumulating even more, because they already have a level of concentration just from the smaller fish when they eat the algae. So does that make sense? Like the free range organic meat is better. At least it'll have fewer antibiotics and pesticide residues than factory farm meat, but it still concentrates environmental toxins and it doesn't protect against bio magnification, which is just a natural process that happens in the food chain.

Melanie Avalon

It does. I would like to look into this more and look at samplings. I'm curious what this practically looks like, because I understand what you're saying, that it's still in there if we choose the best of the best. I would like to just actually see the numbers of what that practically looks like, just because I don't have that much.

Matthew Lederman

That's a good exercise because then you can make an informed decision about how much you want to eat I mean, we're all getting chemicals. We're all getting stuff from our mind. That's why we want to optimize our immune system It's it's gonna be taking hits every every day from all different, you know from the air we breathe the water we drink So you just try to minimize the hits and you decide what's worth it and certain meals certain dishes certain types of food Really bring a lot of joy and pleasure to people So it's more a matter of understanding all this stuff and then making an informed decision about what works for you

Melanie Avalon

And just for the cholesterol piece, I wouldn't be concerned about dietary cholesterol and animal products raising cholesterol. I would be more for me the saturated fat, which you could get from plants as well.

Matthew Lederman

this is this is a common thing that people say and it's I've learned over the years to not spend a lot of energy trying to convince people like like I'm just like if that's the belief that they feel good about then that's great my read of the data and my read of working with patients that it's they can get saturated fat from eating whole coconut and it will not affect their cholesterol the way it will if they get eating animal products and at a certain point you can keep eating more animal products and it doesn't you know we we saturate pretty quickly as far as the amount of cholesterol that any more than that doesn't matter you know you have it's like saying if you're smoking one pack of cigarettes and then you add a second pack well you've done so much damage from the first pack that adding the second pack it might make things a little worse but you know so so if you so you could do a study that says let's take them from two packs of cigarettes down the one pack of cigarettes and there's not much a difference so therefore cigarettes have no effect on health when in fact if you went from two packs of cigarettes to no cigarettes you would see a big difference so I think you got to look at the studies and when you remove dietary cholesterol it's it's clearly a problem but at the same time there's so much so much of the dietary cholesterol comes with saturated fat too so I think they both have their issues but I really don't like in the end I don't like talking about individual macronutrients when we're trying to direct people's health because nobody sits and eats a bowl of cholesterol or eats a bowl of saturated fat and all these foods have all the different I mean bananas have saturated fat in them so it's not like you're gonna pick one type of the other it's it's to me what foods are health promoting and what or not and which foods feel good when you eat them and what foods don't and you put all that together and find a diet that works for you but I don't I've stopped over the years arguing I just want to make sure people hear that maybe there's more than one opinion out there and if they think if they will feel strongly that cholesterol dietary cholesterol doesn't make their cholesterol grow up great and you know they can do an experiment eat one diet and then try to try a couple of weeks without dietary cholesterol and check your blood cholesterol again and do it in yourself but be really you know strict about it so you get a good study and what I imagine is that people who all they do if all they do is change the dietary cholesterol which again I like is hard you can't just eat a bowl of cholesterol my guess is they're going to see a difference if they go from down to zero cholesterol for a couple of weeks just to test it out so do your own little study

Melanie Avalon

So appropriately enough, I've done almost that. But first I just wanted to comment really quickly. I am the same way. I literally have zero interest in convincing anybody of anything, like zero interest. I just wanna explore and hear different opinions and people make your own decisions. So we're on the same page there. It's interesting for me, because so I have done, I'm really intense with what I eat. Like I pretty much eat, I eat very strict whole foods based diet and it's really just a few similar foods, no additives, meat, fruit, cucumbers, things like that. But point being is what I currently am eating and have eaten for a long time, it's very high animal protein, but it's high lean animal protein and it's tons of fruit. When I do that approach, I have very low cholesterol. So LDL will be in the 40s, total cholesterol hovers around 100. When I make a change, and the only change I make is I get rid of the fruit and I add in lots of like coconut oil or MCT oil, all my cholesterol levels like shoot up, which has been really, really interesting to see.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, oil will definitely get cholesterol, even oils that have more, if you go from an oil that, whether it's high saturated fat oil or high monounsaturated fat oil, you add a ton of oil to someone who's not having oil, their cholesterol is going to go up.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so and that's like a plant-based saturated fat, but for me it makes my cholesterol like go really high.

Matthew Lederman

All right. I'm saying is if you're going to test in yourself, test it with a whole food. If you add an oil, I don't care what kind of oil it is, it's going to cause problems. But if you, I would say eat like whole coconut.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, which I don't like, interestingly, like I love all foods and I don't know why.

Matthew Lederman

But I would say do the study with whole foods. So do a study with its high saturated fat that's a whole food, not even coconut milk. Do the whole coconut with the fiber and all the other stuff that comes with it. And compare that to an animal product that's high in dietary cholesterol. And then compare that to a diet that's whole food plant-based without concentrated saturated fat or concentrated cholesterol. And do that experiment for a couple of weeks. Do a before and after. Everything else controlled, if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon

controlled dietary studies are, like you said, so difficult because you can't really isolate one nutrient. No, well, okay, that was fun. So now, it's funny, we get a lot of feedback from listeners and they're always like, I'm so confused because, you know, I hear this one thing and then I hear another and I agree that it can be really confusing, but I like to see it all as benefit. Like it's more information of things that can potentially make you feel better. So do your labs and see how you feel. It sounds like, though, we do have a few overlying, you know, things we believe, which is whole foods based, removing these processed foods, you know, focusing on minimizing the environmental toxins as much as we can.

Matthew Lederman

as low on the food chain as you can, eat as much whole food as you can, which includes not having added oils and added sugars. So whole food is close to its original form as possible. And then, I mean, I don't know where you stand, but I think if you're going to eat animal products, make them count. But again, I don't know where you are on that as far as like, how much do you really need. And then, most importantly, check in with your body. Eat these whole plant foods, add whole animal foods if that's important to you, and then check in with your body. And then, if you're going to do an experiment, really isolate the variable. So if you want to see how you feel with animal products versus, or more versus less, or oil versus no oil, make sure everything else is the same for that two-week period so you can really isolate the variable.

Melanie Avalon

So actually, going to the make it count part, we kind of do overlap indirectly. It's kind of a weavy path to get there, but you were talking about the for the anti-aging benefits, you know, not having this abundance of protein. And it's ironic because on this show, we talked about the importance of protein, or a lot of people eat like a moderate to high protein diet. But by pairing it with fasting, it's actually getting to the same end result where you're not constantly stimulating your body with with mTOR. And I think you can still get the anti-aging benefits. So you're making the protein count by having it in this concentrated eating window. And interestingly, I hadn't thought about this yet, the implications of this, but so I do Matt, I eat a very high protein diet, it's, it's very high protein, but it's in an intermittent fasted pattern every day. So I fast every single day and I just do one meal a day in the evening. And I recently got back and like I said, I'm haunted by this longevity question with this. And I recently interviewed Dr. Matt Dawson, he is the founder of True Diagnostic, which provides an epigenetic age test and they have three of them ones in partnership with Yale ones with Harvard and ones with Duke, I think. They're all epigenetic, they all look at different markers for aging. And he told me in real time when I interviewed him that my results were some of the best he's ever seen with epigenetics showing that I'm aging slowly. So that was really validating to know that I can still have a high protein diet, but by having it in an intermittent fasting and you feel good and feel good, yeah.

Matthew Lederman

You said you feel good. You have you eat one meal a day, you said.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, but it's over a few hours in the evening and it's a lot of fruit, a lot of lean animal protein. Do you publicly share your age? Sorry, there's a funny story there. I wasn't and then CNBC wanted to do an article, like a profile piece on me and they asked if she asked me last minute, she was like, is it okay if we include your age? And I was like, I haven't put that out there publicly. And my background's in acting, which is where you don't say your age and all this stuff. And I was like, so I'd rather not, but if you think it'll benefit the story, I understand. And then she published it and she made it the title, like the title was my age. And so I was like, okay, I guess it's out there. So that's when I was 32. So I'm, oh gosh, I don't even know how old I am, I'm 33.

Matthew Lederman

So, so you're been doing this for a while, you feel really good. You're, you're getting the calories you need. It's not like you're walking around hungry. And I think that's what's most important. Now, we all are trying to do our best to guess what's going to be good for, you know, what do we do now that's going to help us 20 years from now, essentially, or 30 years from now. And it's really tough to know for sure. I mean, you can look at other culture, other populations, and what they ate. That doesn't mean that's what's best. We're just making our best guesses here. And a lot of these studies, they look back and they'll follow people for, for populations for a while, but they don't do this, like, randomized, well, we have this population following this and this, because it's just so hard to do it's so hard to control. So I think the most important thing is that you feel good about what you're doing, you feel good about, you know, you're not stressing out about it. And you're minimizing the stuff that we all clearly agree is crap, all of the processed Twinkies and the cookies and the added sugars. And I don't know what you feel about oil, but I think of added oil, the same as added sugar, that it's an isolated, extracted macronutrient, devoid of all of the things that are naturally in the food. So I don't know if a significant portion of your diet is coming from anything like that, and you don't have to answer, but that's what I'm telling people. I think the most important thing is how you feel. And it sounds like you feel great.

Melanie Avalon

I do. And it was really nice to see that like epigenetically in real time picture of how I'm aging. I'm on the same page as you with oil. So I think I really don't see the reason to add these refined processed oils to things. The only exception is I can see, I mean, there's a lot of really interesting data on olive oil. So I could see if you're having like a little bit of that, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't douse the food in it. I think I don't add oil to my food.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I mean, to me, it's again, it's like if you don't need to, then don't. And if you're going to use it, there's like the good better best to me, the good is minimum, you know, you a little bit, the better would be like, maybe you're almost like putting it in a spray bottle and just in. And to me, the best is eat, you know, eat an olive or something, that's the whole food version of it, you know, eat the avocado instead of the avocado oil. So it's not a low fat or fat free diet, it's just a low extracted fat diet.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, oftentimes people will be doing like keto or low carb and say they're not losing weight. And one of the suggestions I'll make is you don't need to add all this fat, like you don't need to be adding all this fat. You can just eat food, like in its real form.

Matthew Lederman

Exactly. See, so we're on the same page there, I think. And there's just, if you're feeling great, that's the bottom line here. Now, what are the challenges, though, when I was in my early 20s? I mean, you could eat anything and feel fine when you're really young. But as you start to get older, your body can't handle that anymore. So, and actually, kids will say they feel better when they clean up their diet. And, and that's, like I said, you do not need to be vegan, but feel great and be healthy. But I think getting rid of the processed foods, everybody would agree with.

Melanie Avalon

I think so. So segue, we keep talking about how there's so much more to it than just diet in your book, like I said, in your books. But most recently, the one I read, which was Wellness to Wonderful, you go on all these other pillars of, like I said, emotional health and mental and social and all of these things. And you have this We Be Calm product, which is incredible. So what role does that play in all of this health picture?

Matthew Lederman

Actually, before we go on, I just want to make sure I realize I didn't answer your question on intermittent fasting. And I just want to say that, again, it's what helps you feel really good. I think it's very important. Fasting in general, I think, is really good for the body. And I think giving your body downtime to do its repair and restoration is really important where it's not trying to metabolize calories. And I personally, for whatever reason, just naturally gravitated a long time ago where I wouldn't eat. I never felt good eating breakfast. So I would eat my first meal, 11.30. I eat my dinner around 5.30. And that's all I eat. So I think I'm naturally doing some long periods of fasting every day. And then getting low. I think we overall eat too many calories. So that's what I like about low calorie density diets. Whole food plant-based diets are naturally low calorie. And oil is the most calorically dense. So someone who's trying to decrease their caloric intake and fast or intermittently or it's adding oil would be the last thing I'd want to do. It's like 4,000 calories per pound. So that's just another plug for trying to get rid of processed or refined oils. But yes, I think giving yourself time is a really good thing. But there's some people that if they feel better, if they eat three meals a day or they sort of snack throughout the day. And I think that's, again, a personal experiment. If you really have terrible cravings, or you're struggling, or your energy is different, and you feel better eating three meals or snacking during the day, I think the bottom line is trust your body, especially if you're doing that with healthy whole foods. But if you're snacking and eating Lucky Charms for breakfast and snacking all day. And well, then I think we have other things to talk about. So bottom line, yes, I think intermittent fasting is great. But I don't think someone who's feeling good and healthy and loving life needs to force themselves to intermittent fast if they're doing really well, unless they want to play around with it and see how they feel. So that makes sense. I don't think the data is so clear that we have to tell people, if you're not doing it, you are in serious trouble. But it might be something that's worth exploring.

Melanie Avalon

I agree completely makes sense and it might come as a surprise to people since I have a show called the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, but I feel the same way that I think it's a tool that works really, really well for a lot of people and it can be a major game changer and some people in the end, it's just not the thing for them. I definitely don't think everybody needs to be doing it, but I do think it can benefit a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely.

Matthew Lederman

And I say try it too, like you have nothing to lose. What's the worst thing? You skip breakfast and see what happens. Like I love that trying and that's how I do everything. I just experiment on myself. I see how I feel. What do I like? What do I not like? And I wish more people, in fact, that could segue into this other stuff. To me, that's one of the biggest things that I have to help people with is connecting to their own bodies and using their internal value system and their internal felt experience to direct what works and what doesn't work. Instead of looking outside and having these external markers of success and health and then trying to live up to those. So it's really retuning our ability to check back in with our body and let their inner wisdom guide them.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, I love this so much. And so practically, what does that look like? And a lot of what you do, and I'm so grateful, I love that you are, you know, creating this education, spreading this awareness, products, books, all the things for people, but you also have or and you also have a big focus on raising the next generation. So, you know, instilling this mindset and helping, you know, being a parent and helping kids. There's so many ways we could go with this, I guess I'll just start with a fairly basic question. When did you launch your we become product?

Matthew Lederman

we become, I love this tool, it was we created it to help people learn how to regulate their nervous system. And we did we count with this idea of probably four or five years ago, I've been thinking about it for a long time. But over the last five years, we started figuring out how to design it and make it work and then put it together and market it. And, and the reason this is so important is that regulating your nervous system has and which basically means turning on the parasympathetics and telling the sympathetic they can take a break. So parasympathetics are natural calming, that's how we can turn on rest and digest and reproduce functions. The sympathetic or your fight flight frees faint when there's a danger or threat. And we don't want to have those on unless you really need them on. And many people struggle to turn on their Paris or to yeah, turn on the parasympathetics and sort of put a brake on the sympathetic. And breathing particularly slow, along the exhalation is one of the best ways to turn on the parasympathetics. And that's when we let's create a device that you can only exhale through slowly, it's not comfortable to try and blow out fast, along with an indicator that holds a ball loft, as long as you're exhaling, so you can try and keep that ball loft for 10 seconds. So then we said, there's a little bit of white noise that comes out for auditory regulation. So you have three different pathways that stimulate parasympathetics, you have the slow exhalation with the tube, you have the feedback device where you have focused attention on the ball, and that's, it's triggered similar pathways as to all the mindfulness practices. Then you have the white noise that comes out the back, the auditory regulation feedback. And you put all those together and you're activating three different parasympathetic, three different pathways to turn on the parasympathetics. And I tell people put that by your nightstand and do five breaths, five exhalations, five repetitions before bed, you can do another set of five if you want, and do it every night. And the key is doing it every night for months. And after that, you start to build this muscle memory, these neural pathways, neural networks that are created that are basically linked from your breath to turning on calm. And then at any point during the day, you can say, Oh, I'm just going to take a weeby breath. And you do that exhalation and your body now trained by this tool that's giving you feedback of what a correct breath, correct weeby breath is. Then if you take that same breath at any time during the day, you now have this strong neural pathway that can immediately turn on calm. That's been super exciting because it works really well for kids and adults. And you can, and you just have to do it before bed every night and you'll see some amazing results.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I love this so much because there's so much stress in our world and there's a lot of different ways that you can approach it. So, you know, bottom up versus top down and so things like meditation and doing, you know, mental exercises and therapy can be really helpful. And at the same time, you can use devices like this where you can literally, like you said, instantly turn on this parasympathetic state. So well, first of all, demographics wise, so is it mostly kids using it or are you saying for like us adults and parents and such and people in general to use it as well?

Matthew Lederman

Oh, everybody, it's marketed towards children because that was the easiest demographic to target. But my kids and I use it before bed every night. And it's really amazing. My daughter, who's 11, called me from school, hysterically crying. I couldn't even understand her. And I said to her, hey, I'm hearing something's really upsetting you, and I can't understand you. Can you take a weebie breath, and then maybe we'll be able to understand you better? And she immediately, just from even asking her to take the weebie breath, she was able to sort of, I could hear it start to come down a little. And then she stopped, she did the breath, and she was like, ah, so dead. And it was like a switch. And you can't do that if you don't have the training. It's almost like trying to tell somebody to bench some weight, bench press some weight, when they need the strength versus months and months of training, and then they need the strength, and they can do it easily. The key is, even though you know how to breathe, you want to train and give your body that feedback so that you're doing it exactly the way that stimulates the parasympathetics, and that it's a practice. And when you see that tool, the weebie calm device on your nightstand, it takes 30 seconds, 40 seconds, and to do five repetitions, probably actually, if I'm being honest, probably 60 seconds. It takes a minute, but it's still worth it. And you do that every night. It's so amazing. I tell people, just do an experiment. Do it for a couple of months, and then randomly try to take weebie breaths throughout the day, and notice that felt sense in your body.

Melanie Avalon

It's so amazing that like it's a practice, but you don't have to have the cognition to make it work. Like it's going to work if you do it. It's a physical thing that you do, and then it's going to have that effect. And then I love this fact that the brain will then anticipate and the benefits will only grow from there.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's a real, a real strong association by doing every night, you make these all these associations and this neural network just fires and it's like going down a slide and you just slide down the slide at that point because you've created this beautiful neural network.

Melanie Avalon

It's kind of like how even with things like dopamine, we know that when you have an addiction or a habit or something that you do all the time, you actually release those feel good feelings before you even do it. Like once you get into the habit of doing it, it's the thought of it that actually, you know, releases these feel good compounds. So it sounds like the we become can become not that it's like an addiction, but it can become entrained where it immediately will signify to your body these the state to go into.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's a really beautiful thing to watch.

Melanie Avalon

so amazing. And I love that it's so like portable and affordable. Literally, it's like the perfect gift to give to everybody. My mom before, like I said, I gave one to her, because before she'd been using a straw, breathing through a straw. And this makes it so much easier to, like you said, it's multiple thing, it's three different things, not just the breathing. And then you like know what to do, you're not having to like come up with the paradigm that you're fitting into it actually with the thing, like it makes it like easy to follow like step.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, yeah, when you see the ball and you know you're getting the ball off, that's as hard as you have to blow. And then you exhale until you don't have to anymore, at least the 10 seconds. And it gives you this, it's this form, it's a container around the breath that otherwise it's hard to know exactly if you're doing it correctly, especially for kids, but even for adults. So by using this device, it sort of holds the breath the way you need to do it so that you know you're doing it correctly. And then you just do it every night, 60 seconds. If you want to do another set, it's two minutes. It's not a big investment to be able to have calming at your fingertips.

Melanie Avalon

That's incredible. Can you, this is random. Can you use it for things like cravings or people are experiencing like any sort of feeling that they're experiencing where they want to come back to a state of presence? Like what are other things people could use it for?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, you can use it any time your body is dysregulated and you want some regulation. Some people with cravings, they are feeling stressed, they are feeling their nervous system is mobilized and chewing and swallowing is one way to trigger the vagus nerve that turns on the parasympathetics. So it makes sense that people like chewing, swallowing, sucking to calm themselves. That's how kids do it. They suck on and pacifiers. So it's not wrong, but it gets in the way of your health when you use food and swallowing and sucking, especially when you're stressed out, you tend to want high calorie density foods. So it's going to get in the way of your health if that's your go-to calming mechanism. So instead, try and calm other ways. And then on top of that, we ask people to connect to what's going on inside. What's going on with their feelings and needs now shifts into nonviolent communication. But what's going on with their feelings and needs that's causing them to mobilize in the first place? And is there something a request we can make of ourselves or other people that can better meet our needs so that we regulate, again, getting out of that fight or flight mode? So it all starts to come together.

Melanie Avalon

That's a whole nother topic that I love that you talk about, which was the nonviolent communication. I was so fascinated by it, reading your book and listening to your podcast, this idea of needs and wants and requests, and there's so much there. It's a whole nother world. But you talk about it a lot on your podcast, the We Be Parents podcast, so people can check that out in your books.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, the podcast is, the contest is fun because we, it's all focused on bringing connection and that sense of safety, which is really important for kids, their physiology, helping to regulate kids and connect with them. We call it collaborative non-permissive parenting that we teach. And it's all, that's what the podcast is all about, how to bring that into the household. And it's not that, I mean, I'm getting it, getting it right, you know, quote unquote, right, about 50% of the time. And then I know how to clean up the messes that I make. So it's, I mean, it's tough being parents and it's, it's just about doing the best you can and trying to bring these skills into the household, not only for your own wellbeing, but it really contributes to the kids and what the kids learn and bring into their adulthood.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was fascinated by this whole approach and there's this idea where you're not forcing kids to do things that they quote, don't want to do, which is a really, at surface level, it's like, oh, well, then kids aren't going to do anything. But once you get a bigger understanding that, you know, everything is driven by wants and needs and what's being met and you can talk to your kids and come to a place with the goal in mind, usually where you can accomplish said goal that is needed by the by everybody. Once you talk through what people actually want and need, and I'm using a lot of words, but it's really, really interesting. And it was a paradigm shift for me for at least what I see of parenting and how parenting is typically done.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I think that's very well said and it's you have to shift your paradigm. If you believe that kids are inherently bad and you need to force them and mold them to be good, this isn't going to make sense. But if you believe, as I do, that kids naturally want to contribute to the well-being of others just like adults do, but sometimes they're not connected to that or their own needs. There's other needs of theirs that are preventing them from doing that. So when a kid says no, instead of trying to force them to do what you want anyway, try and care about what needs of theirs are preventing them from saying yes. And that's the beginning of the connection. And then you can collaborate and say, hey, how can we care about that need of yours that's making you want to say no, while also caring about my need, which is behind me asking you to do this thing that you're saying no to. Can we both care about all that together?

Melanie Avalon

I love it so much. It's really definitely a paradigm shift and it's really powerful.

Matthew Lederman

It is. It is. And for some people, they really like the authoritarian parenting style. And like I said, I'm not here to tell everybody what's right or wrong. This is just making life a lot more wonderful for us and a lot of the people we work with. So that's why we do it.

Melanie Avalon

Listeners, I cannot recommend enough getting a Webby device for you, for the people in your life, for your kids. Honestly, this is another little hack I do in my life. I like to stock up on Christmas presents throughout the year for people. So then come Christmas time, I already have all my shopping done. Literally, it is such a game changer. So just stock up on these and you can give them as Christmas presents to so many people. So Matt and the team are so kind. They have a discount for you guys, you can get 25% off. Just go to ifpodcast.com slash Webby, that's W-E-B-E. So ifpodcast.com slash Webby, W-E-B-E. And when you go there, it will bring you to the main page. There's a pop up to get on the email list and that will get you a 25% discount on the product. There's also a little button in the corner that says save 25%. So you can click that as well. So definitely check that out. That will be at ifpodcast.com slash Webby, W-E-B-E. All right. Well, thank you, Matt. I really, really enjoyed that conversation. It was exciting. It was nice because I think in our two prior episodes on the other show, we did more focus on stuff that we got into at the end. So if people were interested in that, definitely check out those other episodes. I really enjoyed talking about the diet stuff with you. That was super fun. And I really appreciate your perspective. The central tenets that you think are important, I really love that you understand that different things work for different people. And I think this conversation will be really valuable for people and exposing them to different paradigms and ideas and helping them really find what works best for them. So thank you for what you're doing.

Matthew Lederman

I appreciate it and I really hope people listening because way back when I remember listening to different shows and I would think that person doesn't agree, I don't, yeah, I would just stop listening. And I think it's really helpful to listen to everything and then just pick what works for you and make that your program versus, you know, you have to agree with somebody 100% or, you know, if they don't agree, you know, throw them away. And maybe there's, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe there's some things you like and other things you don't like. So I really invite the audience and in general, I invite my audiences when I'm talking to just pick what works for you. You know, here's my opinion, you know, Melanie, you have your opinion, but you've ultimately figured out what works for you and that's why you have this opinion. But it's different than probably all the experts that you've talked to. There's some differences in what you do compared to each of those experts. And I think that's the way to be successful.

Melanie Avalon

I agree so much. I actually actively, one of the podcasts I listen to is Rich Roll, he's very vegan. And it's because I actively want to make sure I listen to perspectives that are very different from what I actually eat or overlap, like we talked about as well. Yeah, find what works for you, leave what doesn't work for you. Yeah, this has been amazing. So again, listeners, go to ifodcast.com slash weebie and click that little button in the bottom right hand corner to get 25% off. And yeah, this has been super, super awesome. So thanks, Matt, we'll have to have you on again in the future. There's just so much more we could talk about. So thank you for everything that you're doing. Oh, and oh, by the way, can you give links for people? So how can people follow you? Listen to your podcast, all the things

Matthew Lederman

Yes. So people can find us. Our website is connectiondocs.com. And the calming device and the breathing device is through webeecom.com with a K. W-E-B-E, Caleb.com. And our podcast is webeeparents.com. And then our book Wellness to Wonderful is on Amazon. And you can follow webeecom.com on Instagram and Facebook as well.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. So we will put all of that in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for the conversation and everything that you're doing. And yeah, we'll have to talk again in the future. This was really great.

Matthew Lederman

That's great. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon

Thanks, Matt. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. you

Mar 24

Episode 414 – TruDiagnostic, Stubborn Weight Loss, Fasting Releasing Toxins, Epigenetic Testing & Biological Age, Animal Vs Plant Protein, Toxins In Animal Fat, Protein & Aging, and More!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

Welcome to Episode 414 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 414 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iofpodcast.com or by going to iofpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 414 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today? And also, how do you feel about palindromes?

Barry Conrad

Hey, everyone. How's it going? I feel great today. And, Melanie, I don't know how I feel about that. I was not expecting you to even ask me that. How do you feel about it?

Melanie Avalon

414 is a palindrome. 414, like palindromes are where there's like mom, like M-O-M, like where it can be read.

Barry Conrad

Yes. Okay. Yeah. I get you. I get you. I feel, I feel pretty good about that. I feel excited, frisky, awesome, stoked.

Melanie Avalon

Fairy contract feels frisky about palindromes.

Barry Conrad

That's not a sound bite that we need to use, but I feel good. I think it's a good, it's a good number. I like the situation.

Melanie Avalon

I have a fun fact about palindromes. My grandfather, he was obsessed with palindromes to the extent that he wrote a book called Refer, which is a palindrome. And all this book is very, this book is just a list of every palindrome. Are you serious? Yeah, it's just lists of words and numbers.

Barry Conrad

I didn't even know or I'm not sure if I even knew that you had another author in your family.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think he self published it. I don't know. It's on my shelf. He was a character. Wait, should I grab the book? Hold on. Wait, let me go grab. Let me go grab it. Hold on.

Barry Conrad

This is a really interesting. I had no idea, listeners. So here we go.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so it's called refer and then the subtitle is what's not really, I guess it's a subtitle. The reference for writing palindromes because, you know, we need that. And then it's just lists. Okay, pick a page number.

Barry Conrad

24.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so we're in the S's. So the top one on top is actually, I don't know how this works. Oh, these aren't really palindromes on this page. These are words that spell one word one way and one word the other.

Barry Conrad

Okay, give me an example. So what?

Melanie Avalon

Well, the top one, I don't know if sprat is a word, sprat and then tarps. Ah, I get what you mean. Like, or like, okay. The one next to it is straw and warts, stressed and desserts, et cetera. Those aren't palindromes though. Pick another number.

Barry Conrad

Melanie Avalon

That's still in the same section pick a number like

Barry Conrad

Like higher.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah.

Barry Conrad

Okay.

Melanie Avalon

48. 48 is talking about palindromes. It says it is obvious that there are infinitely many numerical palindromes. Some palindromes are prime numbers, like 101, some are not prime, like 202, and then it just keeps going on.

Barry Conrad

You know what I'm gonna keep that in my mind now every time I see one I'm like It's a pelodrome. How do you feel about that and people be like, huh?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And then you can have this whole conversation with them as well. You can refer them to my grandfather's book refer.

Barry Conrad

That's hilarious. I might have to do that. Yes. Is this going to be in the show notes or what? Are you going to put this for people to, can people find it?

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if it's on Amazon. Let me find out. I hope so. I think I bought it on Amazon.

Barry Conrad

It's pretty cool that he's got this book.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, here it is. You can buy it on Amazon. That's so cute.

Barry Conrad

That is awesome.

Melanie Avalon

I will put a link to it in the show notes. I will put a link to that and to my new microphone, which is rainbows.

Barry Conrad

When, listen, is when I first heard that Melanie had this mic, I thought like, what is it shooting rainbows out of the mic? Is it a rainbow colored mic? Yeah. So can you tell us what it means? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

Well, have you seen any of my clips on social media where I normally I have like a red mic, it's like very red. So this is the same brand HyperX, but it lights up and it's lighting up with a rainbow that is changing, like changing colors, like rainbowy.

Barry Conrad

How does it make you feel?

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it feels wonderful, honestly, feels like World of Color. It's, I just can't decide if it's distracting or not. But it, okay, you know, when things like very calmly, like, like just oscillate and vibe, like it feels calming, it's that. But what color would you have Barry if you had, because you can program it to be any color. So what color would you have?

Barry Conrad

I would have to go with blue because blue is my favorite color and I feel super chill when I'm when I have blue around me just relaxed calm yeah serene so blues my color all the way.

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's interesting because, you know, blue is energy. What do you mean, energy? It's the wavelength of energy. So like the reason it's like the most high energy wavelength. That's why we have like blue light blocking glasses. That's why there are no blue fruits or plants. There are, did you know that? There are no plants that are actually blue. They're actually shades of purple if you think they're blue. Because blue, the plant absorbs all the blue because it's the energy. So it doesn't reflect it back.

Barry Conrad

I had no idea about this at all because what about flowers or like blue flowers or is that more of a purple? Is that what you're saying?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I don't. Okay. When I was reading about this, it was talking about fruits. I don't know about flowers.

Barry Conrad

Oh, actually, actually, what about blueberries?

Melanie Avalon

They're actually not like completely blue. They have some, they're actually technically, I think a shade of purple. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, there's no like a hundred. Basically there's not a fruit that just reflects back only blue because it wouldn't have energy.

Barry Conrad

It's amazing idea while mind blown, not pun intended with the other podcasts that we go, but it's true.

Melanie Avalon

So, so now that I've provided completely useless information, how are things in your life?

Barry Conrad

It's not useless. I'm very, I feel very educated right now after living by paladromes and- Paladromes and blue. Blue energy. Things are great. You know what, Melanie? I have something to share with you that is- goodness, excite you so much. And me.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.

Barry Conrad

So, you know how you've asked me this before, like, how did you when did you start fasting and what brought you to it? Like, how did you find it? Did you remember? I always was like online, online, which is true, but I didn't know the origin story until a couple of weeks ago. My second brother came over for some trinkets. We had some foods and wine and and I was venting to him. I said, you know, I'm so frustrated because I can't remember the exact moment. He goes, ah, well, I do. Like, remember, you said.

Melanie Avalon

Second brother to the rescue.

Barry Conrad

It was like Hugh Jackman, you know, you read an article when he was training for Wolverine and he said that he did intermittent fasting and you kept going on about it like, I'm going to try this thing Hugh Jackman does, 16A, intermittent fasting. That's the moment I was like, bingo.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Let's take a moment for Hugh Jackman right now. That's amazing.

Barry Conrad

I was so excited i was like finally someone had the missing puzzle piece so i finally can answer that now you jackman.

Melanie Avalon

So when he said that, did you like really remember the moment or was it, you had to reconstruct the memory based on like what he was telling you.

Barry Conrad

No i remember the moment when he said that i was like what do you mean i forgot this moment this is that's exactly but he was so chill is like he was like yeah of course it's when you remember the huge action. I dropped the glass that i was holding into the sink is like that's the moment we go.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. I feel like I vaguely remember that, not you and that, but like, I remember Hugh Jackman talking about intermittent fasting. Was it during like the X-Men time?

Barry Conrad

It was during the x-men time but also when you started preparing for the the solo films you know wolverine.

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. I wonder if he still does it. We should

Barry Conrad

We should ask him, Hugh Jackman, if you ever hear this, do you still do intermittent fasting? Did you do it for the Deadpool Wolverine movie or you kind of pass that now? Let us know.

Melanie Avalon

We would like to know, maybe, wait, have you ever met him?

Barry Conrad

He's one of my, I look up to that guy. I've never met him yet. I met his wife, his ex-wife, but not him. Not yet, yet, keyword.

Melanie Avalon

I'm putting it out there, you're doing a project with him. I'm just putting it out there, manifest that. You guys could do a musical together, a stage musical.

Barry Conrad

acts that actually could happen too because I think he's in New York right now doing a show.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like he probably feel like he's always doing something. He's very inspiring

Barry Conrad

Very inspiring. I love how he pivots between movie, like action movie to musical to Yeah, it's it's super inspiring as an actor for sure. Wow. But there you go, Melanie. That's it.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. Okay.

Barry Conrad

What about you? What's happening in your-

Melanie Avalon

world. I'm good. Okay, friends, actually exciting announcement. So if things are on track, which hopefully they will be this Friday, March 28, I should be launching my AvalonX EMF blocking product line with the EMF free headphones air tubes. That's so exciting. So hopefully, FutureUs is having this moment right now and hopefully it's launching. So go to AvalonXEMF.us on Friday. Actually, go there now because you can get on the email list to get updates for the products and the launch special and all the things. But basically, EMFs are classified by the IARC as a group to be carcinogen. And they are not good. They are linked to a lot of health conditions. And when you're putting AirPods in your head, did I say AirPods earlier? I meant air tubes. Oh, dear. When you put AirPods like Bluetooth ones in your head, you're literally just putting all that EMF signal right next to your brain, which is no bueno. So these are headphones that are free of EMF. They actually conduct and convert the sound into analog. So there's nothing digital about how the sound is transmitted to you. Yeah, they're going to come in rose gold and black. Which color would you get, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I would give black for sure.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, no, I was like, are you gonna do like a curve ball? No rose gold for you?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I don't have anything of rose gold yet, but you know, I'm open to it if I can yeah, maybe I should change

Melanie Avalon

Maybe that's your new color palette.

Barry Conrad

along with some paludromes and some, some blue energy.

Melanie Avalon

calendrobes and blue. So yeah. So again, to listeners, Avalon XEMF.us.

Barry Conrad

Super exciting!

Melanie Avalon

I know. Shall we jump into fasting stuff? Let's do it. So I'm the one who brought a study today to talk about. I actually prepped this berry because you weren't there. But next week, episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman. He is a really awesome human being. So did you ever watch the Forks Over Knives documentary?

Barry Conrad

I don't think I have seen that. No, tell me about it.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, it's probably like it may be one of the most well-known vegan documentaries. It's very like plant. It's all about like Whole Foods plant-based diet. So he was in that. He co-authored the New York Times bestselling book, The Forks Over Knives Plan or something. It's the book that's about the plan for it. And he actually worked at Whole Foods, wait, they have Whole Foods in Australia, right?

Barry Conrad

We actually don't we have a we haven't stopped we don't we don't that's another moment we have a harris farm which is kind of like if you look at paris farm it's kind of like whole foods the same kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon

Wait a minute. How have we known each other for all these years and I didn't know they don't have whole foods in Australia?

Barry Conrad

They don't? We don't have it here. I know.

Melanie Avalon

I know. But you've been to Whole Foods, right? Like in the US? Yep. And are you like, wow, we need this in Australia.

Barry Conrad

We do need it. I mean, Harris Farms is similar, but not Whole Foods.

Melanie Avalon

It's a chain, Harris Farms. Maybe Whole Foods will acquire it, take over. Okay, I'm just trying to get over how sad I am that you don't have Whole Foods, but Harris Farms is probably, Harris Farm or farms? Are there one farm, two farms?

Barry Conrad

I think it's just like, that's just like the name like the, on the facade, like, you know, the signage Harris farm. It's called Harris farm markets. That's what it's called. Harris farm markets.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so one farm, multiple markets, Harris Farm markets. Okay. I think Whole Foods is technically Whole Foods market. I don't know. In any case, Dr. Letterman was the for like, a long time, like eight years or something, he was the vice president of medical medical affairs or some sort of he was some sort of medical director. And he basically was in charge of their medical program that they use for their employees that helped with like their health and their wellness and helped reduce insurance costs, because it was all about supporting like health and wellness and a more holistic approach. So he spearheaded that at Whole Foods for a long time. He co authored the Whole Foods diet book with john Mackey, who is the the co founder and former CEO of Whole Foods. And he is the creator of a brand called we be calm, which they make this breathing device for it's where they market it to kids, but it's for adults as well. And it's it kind of gamifies breathing, like slow breathing, where you like breathe into this tube and watch a little air like a little ball rise. And it's to help like instantly calm you down. It's really, really cool. So I'll give listeners a code for that. If they go to if podcast.com slash we be w e be, you can get 25% off go to that link. And then there's a button in the bottom right corner to get 25% off. But that was a lengthy introduction. So the reason I want to talk about it today, and what led to the study that I'm going to talk about is be ready friends, because we talk a lot on this show about the importance of protein and high protein diet and you know, the benefits of animal protein. So Dr. Letterman, he is very much in the plant based world and the vegan world. So we had a very interesting conversation that I think people will find helpful because he brought a different perspective. He thinks most people don't need to worry about protein, he thinks we should, you know, minimize animal protein. So I do not agree with a lot of what he said. But I think it's really helpful to expose yourself to all different viewpoints. Because that keeps you from, you know, being in a silo and being biased and cherry picking. So I'm excited to hear what listeners think about next week's episode, you'll have to listen and let me know what you think too. Yeah, how do you feel about different opinions? And I feel about different opinions like that.

Barry Conrad

I think that I'm on the same page with it being really really helpful and interesting to hear different opinions and also as soon as you said that about the we don't need like he doesn't think we need to focus on protein I had to literally listeners sit back in my chair away from the mike before it. Because I don't agree with that but yeah all four opinions though.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I don't either. And I did push back on it. And so we debated about it back and forth. One of the arguments he made, but this was about, and this brings me to today's study, this is not about protein per se, but he was saying that these toxic compounds like carcinogens and pollutants in the environment become massively more concentrated in animal products compared to plants. Because as the animal eats, everything concentrates and goes up the food chain. So he was saying eating an animal-based diet exposes you to way more toxins than a plant-based diet. And I have a lot of thoughts about that. One, I think there's a big difference between an organic animal-based diet compared to a conventional plant-based diet. You have to take that into account. He pushed back and said there wasn't much of a difference between organic versus conventional toxins in animal products. And I actually, I researched that and looks like that's an accurate statement. It looks like there's not a huge difference between them because these compounds are so pervasive in the environment. I just think the benefits of animal-based products, especially protein and the nutrients that you can get, and I talk about this in next week's episode. So check it out for instance, like a major teaser for next week. I just think it's so valuable for so many people. The nutrients are more easily assimilated. There's a lot of nutrients that can be hard for people to convert into the correct form. So things like ALA versus DHA and EPA, the omega-3s, what else? Well, vitamin B12 is really only in something like spirulina, shout out, if you want to have that on a vegan diet. There's just a lot of nutrients like choline and creatine and such, which are much more concentrated in animal products. But in any case, I asked him if maybe some of this could be avoided by eating lean animal protein rather than fatty animal protein because toxins tend to accumulate in fat. He kind of gave me that, but he was still kind of not about it. So I went and researched this concept and I found a really, really interesting study about fat accumulation and toxins and what happens when you fast. So that's what I'm going to talk about. But before I move into that, I want to say I really adore Dr. Matthew Letterman. He was amazing and it was such a respectful conversation. And at the end, he was so overwhelmingly abundantly clear that he feels people should find what works for them personally. And that's how I feel as well. So I just want to say that. Yeah. Should I, do you have any thoughts or should I bring up the study?

Barry Conrad

Let's get into the study i'm curious to hear this.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. So I found this study because I was trying to find a study talking about if you eat lean meat compared to fatty meat, would that reduce your toxin exposure? And I couldn't find a study looking just at that, but then I found a study that mentioned it in passing and it was in a broader study that was really, really interesting. So that's what I'm going to talk about. But it is true that eating lean meat compared to fatty meat can really help reduce your exposure to most of those toxins because they do accumulate in fat. The exception would be something like mercury, like heavy metals and fish. Those actually accumulate in the protein, not the fat. So you just can't win. You just can't win. That's why I think it's so important to eat fish that's very low on the food chain. But the study is called adipose tissue as a site of toxin accumulation. It was published, I'll give you the link as well, September 2018 in comprehensive physiology. And some of the takeaways from this study was it was talking about these, they're called POPs. They're persistent organic pollutants. And basically, they're all these different compounds that are so saturated in our environment that they persist. So even though a lot of them have been banned or are not being actively used, they are still there and they tend to accumulate and they are not good for our health. So what's interesting about them is our body, there's a good side and a bad side to this. So in order to protect us from these compounds, because they are so toxic, our body stores them in fat so that they won't hurt us. And while they're in our fat stores, they are inert. So they can't hurt us, although there's a little bit of a caveat I want to talk about, but they can't directly hurt us while they're in the fat. But then the problem happens is when you try to lose weight by weight loss and fasting in particular, it talks about that in the study, that we mobilize these toxins into our bodies, and they can actually hurt us. So it talks about how fast weight loss can be a problem for some people because they released so many of these compounds. And so these compounds are things you might have heard of like BPA or phthalates. There was actually a conference in 2001 at the Stockholm convention and they came up with their Dirty Dozen list, which was 12 key ones. And they have very long names, but some of the other ones you might have heard of are like dioxins, DDT, PCBs, all of these things. What's really interesting is not only does our body store them in fat, and we release them when we lose weight, they actually... One of the theses of this paper was that they contribute to obesity and insulin resistance and diabetes and all the things. And that's because they actually can encourage insulin resistance. I've talked before about things called obesogens, and that's what these are. They're literally these compounds that can make you store and gain weight. And then within the fat cells, they actually make the fat cells more inflammatory and they actually can make the fat more likely... Make it more resistant to weight loss and make it more likely to gain weight from there.

Melanie Avalon

It just goes to speak... I know I talk a lot about the importance of things like safe skincare and makeup and like what you put in your body and the role of toxins. And that's because these compounds literally can affect your metabolic health. They can encourage you to gain weight and make it hard to lose weight. So people often are struggling with weight loss and things and these compounds may be playing a really large role in it. It's not just the food, even though they started this with the food saying that animal products can be higher in these compounds, but we're exposed to them in all different ways. So yeah, do you have thoughts? It's kind of a story, but...

Barry Conrad

It's not a dairy donor. For me, I just think that... Well, actually, I had a question when you first started, which was you said in lean protein. So does that mean, lean animal protein, does it still count if you cut the fat off? For example, like a steak, if you cut the fat off and then prepare it, cook it, grill it, or does it have to come in its actual form just leaner, less fatty? Like how does...

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, that's a really great question. So there's a few different things here. So when it comes to fat and meat, there's intramuscular and extra muscular fat. So when you're talking about like cutting off the fat, so that's extra muscular fat that you can cut off, which is great because you cut it off and you're removing those toxic compounds in that fat. But then there's what you're talking about, which is just the actual animal itself needs to be leaner. And that is something else because you can't cut out the fat if the fat is inside of the actual meat. You can cook it out by cooking it more and the fat drains out, but you're not going to remove all of it. So this is actually really interesting where grass-fed versus conventional meat comes into play because you'll notice if you have grass-fed beef, for example, or bison, that it's way leaner than conventional beef and steak. And that's because those animals, because of their lifestyle, they're just leaner and they're less insulin resistant, less obesogenic from how they're raised. So they're not storing as much fat inside of their actual muscle. So you're going to, to the point of the toxins, getting grass-fed meat should reduce your exposure to some of that fat. Or if you look at, for example, like conventional farm-raised salmon versus wild-caught salmon, it's so much fattier, the farm salmon. So, yeah. It's a good question.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, going back to what you said about animal protein versus plant protein, though, I just think it seems like such a clear slam dunk to me, from my opinion, and I could be wrong. But from what I know, we know that, you know, animal proteins, it's a complete protein. It's not, you know, whereas, you know, like plant proteins, like they have fiber and antioxidants. But, I mean, animal proteins, better absorption, it's higher in leucine, more nutrient dense. So, for muscle and strength, you'd think, isn't it clear that animal protein is sort of king? What do you think?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I have so many thoughts. I really do agree. It is true that you can get the full amino acid profile by combining different plants. I just think if it comes to supporting muscle in your body, the amino acid profile of animal products is just much more ideal for that. It's much more easily assimilated. It's everything that you just said. I think people can struggle to get enough protein on plant-based diets. I understand it works for some people, but I think it can be hard. An argument he was making, and I'm excited to tell you about this. An argument he was making was that some of these amino acids are pro-aging because they really stimulate mTOR and IGF-1, which are growth-promoting signals which relates to aging and an excess of which may correlate to cancer. These are things like leucine in particular, methionine. I agree with that, but I think there's some magic to having intermittent fasting because that's going to reduce those growth signals and then have the growth-promoting protein in your eating window. I feel like you get best of both worlds. I've wondered this for a long time. I've also been haunted by this for a long time because I eat a super high protein diet. I feel like Barry, you're probably one of the only people I know who might eat. I don't know. I feel like I eat more than you, protein-wise.

Barry Conrad

We'll have to have a protein off.

Melanie Avalon

a protein off, but you eat a lot too, like, yeah.

Barry Conrad

A lot of animal protein to clarify.

Melanie Avalon

I've been hoping that the fasting does provide ample mitigation of that growth time when you're having that high protein diet for an anti-aging effect. And I interviewed... Did I tell you this yet? How I interviewed Matt Dawson? Did I tell you this?

Barry Conrad

refresh my memory, maybe you did.

Melanie Avalon

So he let me see what episode it was. So he was episode 412. He is the founder or co founder of wild health.com, which they provide this, like this full lab work, genetic analysis platform where they really test what you need to be testing. Then you work with their providers to figure out what you need to do with your diet and lifestyle. And they run your, they sequence your DNA and you get this massive report. That's like 50 pages talking about your genes and how they affect your diet, your sleep, your lifestyle. It is fascinating. I absolutely love it. I want to do that. Yeah. It was, oh, I can, yeah. Let me talk to him and see if we can get you set up on it. So I can't recommend it enough. And I was excited because it really did match what I said. So like, or what I experienced as far as like what it was saying, like it was saying that I'm, um, you know, like a night owl and oh, that like when it comes to neurotransmitters that I'm very, I break down dopamine slowly. So I'm very like dopamine driven, which is kind of how I feel. I'm always like high dopamine. And then they helped identify that I knew I had methylation issues, but they put, they had me go on like a methyl folate supplement to help with my homocysteine. So that was exciting. So I definitely recommend it. People can go to wild health.com slash Melanie Avalon and use the code Melanie Avalon. That will get you 20% off, but he's also the like founder or CEO. He's the head honcho at another company called true diagnostic.

Barry Conrad

I feel like maybe you did tell me about him because I remember some of this, yeah. That sounds awesome, though, what you just said about, you know, getting that 50 pages worth of data. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

It's so, so cool. I really love it. And it helps you, you know, kind of figure out what diet might work for you. But the long windy road is, he's also at this company called True Diagnostic, and they provide, this is so exciting, three epigenetic age tests for your biological age, which for listeners, that's basically what is your age on the inside. So you have your chronological age, and then you have your biological age. He looked at my results. So there's three tests on it. Let me see what they're called. So there's three tests. One is the it's called the Omic age, or Omic M age, and it was developed with Harvard. Then there's the Dunedin pace, which was made with Duke and Columbia, and then the symphony age from Yale. So I got my results back. And he told me, he told me my results were some of the best he's ever seen for epigenetic aging. And this is the guy who runs the company.

Barry Conrad

That's massive. What did he say? So what can you share some of like the comparison?

Melanie Avalon

I'll share with my results, but the reason it was really exciting was I've been haunted by this idea like, is eating this really high protein diet aging me faster, you know, or is it a problem? But according to this results, I'm doing, I'm aging really slowly. So the Omik age, that's the one with, who did I say that was with, with Harvard. So at the time I took the test, I was 33.53. The result, I was 10.64 years younger by that, which was, so I was 22.89. And then the, the dune in pace of aging test, which he said, he said this one is really telling for how are you actually aging in the moment. Like the other one is kind of like, what is, the other one's like, what is your age, your biological age now? But this one actually looks at like, how are you aging, like the rate of aging. And I was 0.67. So basically for every year of aging, I'm aging at a rate of 0.67. And that's the one he said he was like really impressed with. And then the symphony.

Barry Conrad

Almost half, you know, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, almost. And then the symphony age, that actually looks at 11 distinct organ systems. And it tells you, in each organ system, are you aging slower or faster? In nine of them, I was aging slower. So I was aging slower in systems, heart, inflammation, metabolic, brain, musculoskeletal, kidneys, liver, lungs, and blood. And then I was aging slightly faster in immune and hormones. But he did say that a lot of these can fluctuate from day to day. So point being is, I'm sorry, this is so long. I feel like I've been talking for the entire episode.

Barry Conrad

No, this is super interesting.

Melanie Avalon

So listeners will have a code for you. So if you go to Melanie Avalon.com slash true diagnostic, and that's spelled TRU for true, so Melanie Avalon.com slash true diagnostic. T R U D I A G N O S T I C. You can get 10% off with the code Melanie Avalon. But yeah, the point is I've been, I think what this really says, and I realize it's an N of one, like I am, it's only me as an example, but it does to me clearly show that it is possible to eat exuberant amounts of protein and not be aging faster from it, given the overall context. So, you know, the intermittent fasting pattern, because it can't, it, I mean, it literally does mean that because it does mean that at the very least eating high, high protein will not always 100% of the time make you age faster because I'm literally eating a ton and I'm aging slower. And I think that's due to the fasting. I mean, it has to be, because if not, I should be.

Barry Conrad

changing faster. That's amazing, actually. I want to do that as well. Can we do that in Australia? Or does that have to be in America for that?

Melanie Avalon

Probably not, I can find out.

Barry Conrad

I'll wait till I'm there.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'll find out it might be and same with the wild health might be a little bit difficult because It's like they have to order blood tests and stuff for you. This one though was a saliva test. So maybe I'll have to find out you would love it

Barry Conrad

Yeah, in any case, Mel, like you're right, what you're saying, it backs up what we both really believe about animal protein and eating high protein diet, you know, and it's amazing to hear those results. It's science. So how can you... Yeah, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

It was so exciting because it's the information I've been needing for a long time to feel, I don't know, to feel not quite as worried about my high protein diet. I really think the fasting is doing something magical. And something else I want to say, all these studies on high protein diets and aging, especially if they're causation correlation, if it's completely just epidemiological data, like they're looking at people on high protein diets, most people on high protein diets are eating a lot of food in general. Like it's the rare subset. It's like bodybuilders and people who are eating like a high protein, but like a low calorie diet. Like that's pretty rare. So it's hard to know how much of it is the protein and how much of it is just the diet in general, like the calorie load of the diet in general and like eating constantly.

Barry Conrad

It's my brain's buzzing. I'm so excited to hear this news because it's basically just confirmation. Also, did you, did you really, were you really feeling like that? Like feeling like, oh, is this good that I'm eating this much protein?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, 100%. I asked this question. If you go through my biohacking one, my biohacking podcast, I ask everybody who I think might have information about this, I ask them their thoughts on the trade-off between high protein diets and longevity. So I'm pretty sure I asked David Sinclair and Valter Longo and even people on the high protein side of things like Gabrielle Lyon. Yeah, I'm haunted by this question.

Barry Conrad

What do they all say like on average like all those guests like to they all support the high protein or do they cut is it more abstract like what they say about it.

Melanie Avalon

It pretty much depends what camp they're in. So I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger end of last year, and he's one of the biggest vegan people out there. And he made the case that he thinks protein is the most aging thing, specifically the amino acid methionine. According to him, the most aging thing you can do is eat a high methionine diet. So yeah, he was team low protein. Walter Longo, who is also team low protein, I asked him this question. I remember I actually asked him. So he's the one who created the fasting mimicking diet. He's at the University of Southern California. We've had him on this show, and I've had him on my other show once or twice. I'm actually trying to book him again for his new book, which is on cancer. I asked him specifically. I was like, do you think maybe if I'm eating a high protein diet, but in a one meal a day window every day, and then fasting all day, is that mitigating the effects? And he said it's possible, but we just don't know. Basically, why risk it? What's his answer? But then people like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon will make the case that supporting muscle is of most importance for longevity. So you get all different answers. But yes, to answer your question, I am very haunted by this question.

Barry Conrad

Well, hopefully you less wanted after getting those results.

Melanie Avalon

I am. I felt intuitively like I don't feel like I'm aging from it. It feels very supportive of my metabolic health. And then the fasting every day just intuitively feels good. Like I don't feel like I'm aging faster.

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree with you 100% and same with you.

Melanie Avalon

You look amazing. You look like a baby.

Barry Conrad

you look amazing too. Hopefully a big baby not like an actual

Melanie Avalon

A big baby, no, not an actual baby. It's like, what's that movie, Tuck Everlasting? Like, don't age.

Barry Conrad

Aye, yeah, yeah

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I don't know if you ever saw that I saw that like forever

Barry Conrad

I can't even tell, like, you're one of those people where looking at you, you just can't tell your age, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Like you can't really pinpoint it

Barry Conrad

Like he should be in Twilight.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, you too. Let's make a movie. Let's cast ourselves.

Barry Conrad

I like how there was a ding when you said that in the background.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, my goodness. So that was a lot.

Barry Conrad

No, it was a lot in a good way.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, should we answer a listener question? Any other thoughts?

Barry Conrad

No, I'm very, very happy to hear what you just shared because I'm so big on protein too, so it's encouraging. Let's get into some questions.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Okay. All right. So we have a question from Nydia, and this actually relates a little bit to some of the things we talked about, but this was on Facebook. And friends, you can join our Facebook group, IF Biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods, plus life, and ask questions in there for us, all the things. So Nydia says, why after almost four years, I can't seem to get fat adapted. I do clean fast since I started to fast. I do 19-6 most of the time. I close my window with no sweets, so my glucose levels won't be higher. I lost weight, then gained all of it back, and some more. I'm 50 years old. I weigh 170 and 5-3, so yes, I'm obese, L-O-L. She said L-O-L. I didn't add that in. She said it. So what are your thoughts, Yuri?

Barry Conrad

Well, Nydia, how's it going? I hope you're having a good week. First off, massive, massive respect for sticking with IF for four years. That's a long time and it's a real commitment, which is great. I know how frustrating it could be, you know, to feel like you're doing everything right, but not really getting the results you expected. But let me tell you that your, your body isn't, it's not working against you. Your, it sounds like from what you're saying that something's out of sync there, but we can, we can figure it out. So when people talk about quote unquote fat adapted, it means like their body has shifted into like a fat burning mode, which means using stored fat for energy instead of running on carbs. And based on what you're saying, you are clean fasting, doing a solid 19, six situation and keeping your sugar in check, which is good. So you're ahead of the game there. But if your body is holding on to the weight or even gaining, that's a big clue that something needs tweaking here. So the first thing I'd look at is drum roll protein, protein intake, because it's, it's a huge, it's a huge thing, especially at 50 and as we get older, we naturally lose muscle and that can slow our metabolism down. We name checked over four, but for example, Dr. Gabrielle lion, who's the physician and expert in all things muscle. You know, she says that after the age of 30, we can lose approximately like three to 8% of muscle mass per decade. That's significant. So with that rate, even accelerating after age 60, we need more protein. So if you're not getting enough protein to support your muscle, your body isn't going to burn fat as efficiently. And that's just the reality. So I'll be real. A lot of people think they're eating enough protein and a lot of my friends and family say, yeah, I had a steak for dinner. I had some chicken for lunch. I had my protein, but that's actually not having enough. When you actually track for a day or two, you'll find that you're way under like a lot of people do. So a good rule rule of thumb here is to aim for at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight and don't just guess it though, like actually track it for a couple of days and see where you're at, that might surprise you. Next up, are you eating enough overall? So this might kind of sound weird, but if you're under eating, your body can go into a kind of survival mode where it actually will hold onto the fat instead of burning it, which is not what we want. So this happens when we fast too aggressively or we don't fully refuel in our eating window. So eat enough on the flip side of that. It's easy to overeat without realizing, right? Especially if your meals are packed with like cheeses or, you know, quote unquote, health foods in the health food aisle, which are calorie dense.

Barry Conrad

So tracking your intake for a few days, it's going to help. Then we have to talk about hormones. I'm going to tread lightly here. Melanie, you can jump in if you need here, but because this stage of life, from my understanding of it, things like insulin, estrogen, cortisol, and thyroid function, it all plays a huge role in the way we lose weight, lose fat. So if your insulin sensitivity has changed or your estrogen levels are shifting, your body might store the fat more easily, especially around your your midsection. And we can't forget about cortisol because if stress levels are high, that's going to spike cravings and slow fat loss and even like really mess up your sleep. So if you haven't had your hormones checked in a while, this could be, could be a missing piece of it. Sometimes even simple shifts in meal timing or food choices are going to help to bring that back into balance. And speaking of sleep, like, and I'm preaching to myself here, it matters so much more than we think, because if you're not getting the deep quality sleep, your body doesn't fully recover, your hunger hormones get out of whack and your metabolism is going to slow. So if you're not winding down probably before bed nadir, I definitely think it's worth paying attention to. Bottom line, I don't think this is any kind of failure or nothing's broken. It's just, I think there's just some tweaks you can make here. And honestly, the fact that you stuck with this for four years proves you have the discipline, the mindset and the patience to figure this out. You don't need to overall everything. It's just fine tune what's not working. You've already done the hard part by staying consistent. And so I reckon you're much closer than you think you are. You got this, Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon

That was so wonderful. That was amazing. Thank you so much. I agree with everything you said. I'll throw in some other things that you could think about or consider. So first of all, I love the protein, I echo all of that back. So I think we've made it really clear how important that is. And one thing you could try. So you say that you you close your window with no sweet so your glucose won't be higher. If you haven't done a round of wearing a CGM, I would highly recommend that. So it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a little sensor that you put on your arm and it monitors your blood sugar levels 24 seven. So you'll get a good picture of how your blood sugar is actually responding all throughout the day. And I think that will provide a really helpful picture of what might be going on. So you could try Nutrisense. So for that, go to Nutrisense.io slash I have podcasts, that's n u t r i s e n s e.com slash I have podcast and use you can use the code I have podcast that will get you a discount. I think it's $30. But it will definitely get you a discount and one free month of nutritionist support. So you could try that. And then you can also try a lumen device that might be something to try. I love lumen. It's a device which measures the level of carbon dioxide in your breath to actually tell you if you're burning carbs or fat, and then helps you work you through to get more into the fat burning zone more often. It's a really, really cool metabolic device. It's actually the same science when they do these studies in lab controlled ward studies where they try to see how people are burning carbs or fat, it's actually using that science, which is so cool. So if you want to discount on that, you can go to Melanie Avalon comm slash lumen l u m e n and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon and that will give you a discount there. So definitely try that or definitely consider trying that. And then I recently interviewed for the second time I interviewed her recently, this episode will be airing April 11. So check it out when it airs. It's with Dr. Kate Shanahan, although you can actually listen to I interviewed her a few years ago. So you can listen to that old one in the meantime as well. And that's on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. So Dr. Shanahan, she wrote Deep Nutrition, which is an incredible book. That's how I was exposed to her work. But then she more recently wrote The Fat Burn Fix. And then her newest book is called Dark Calories. And the subtitle is how vegetable oils destroy our health and how we can get it back. She is a huge proponent of the idea that seed oils are what are causing so much of our metabolic health issues today. She does take it to the utmost extreme, like this is the cause of like all the problems. I do think there's something there though, I personally have been on a seed oil free diet for years and years.

Melanie Avalon

I've been on a quote PUFA depletion diet. So basically, PUFA is the poly unsaturated fatty acids, things like omega three is omega sixes and they're very high in seed oils. And these, these fats, they're not meant to be energy, they're more like a, they have health benefits for our body, but they're not meant to be burned by the mitochondria as ongoing energy. And when they are, they're very inflammatory. And she makes a very comprehensive scientific case for the fact that these are creating insulin resistance, metabolic health issues and are and are like she thinks it's like the reason people get into stubborn weight situations like Nydia is experiencing. So you could definitely I don't you don't mention and I think this is huge. You don't mention what you're eating besides not eating sweets at night. There is so much potential that can happen when you clean up. I don't like the word cleanup. But when you change actually what you're eating, so change to eating just whole foods, removing those seed oils, removing processed foods, that can have a massive effect on your metabolic health and your weight loss. So that's definitely something to consider. And then also, like I was talking about earlier, if we have these toxins stored in our fat tissue, especially if you're obese, you probably have a lot of toxins stored in your fat tissue, that might be making it harder for you to lose weight. It is what it is. It's not meant to be scary or bad. It just it's knowledge to know that that might be an issue for you and that maybe you need to lose weight slowly and as much as you can reduce your incoming exposure to these environmental toxins through your diet choices, your skincare and makeup, all the things. So and then I will just quickly say, you know, Barry's comment about hormones. So so huge hormones can be a big reason that we, you know, can not easily lose weight. So Anything you do to optimize your diet with like the food choices and your health and your lifestyle and your sleep, those are all going to help with hormones, kind of just to echo what Barry was saying. So you've got this, there's a lot of things you can try, keep tweaking and you can always write back in, keep us updated. Yeah, let us know. So, okay, Barry, shall we hypothet... or what's the word, hypothetically? No, no, no. What's the word? Hypothetically break our fast? Not hypothetically. Hypothetically. Hypothetically.

Barry Conrad

So we virtually, yeah, I guess hypothetically, I guess so, right?

Melanie Avalon

And it's not hypothetically. What's the word for it's like you're not actually doing it, but you're like doing it in your mind?

Barry Conrad

We mentally break up, so we imaginatively break up us.

Melanie Avalon

Should we that our vast let's do it. Okay, I'm so ready. Awesome. Do you have a restaurant for us to talk about?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant today that I'm really excited about.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I'm excited too.

Barry Conrad

It's called Kaya wine bar, and it's in my favorite city in the whole world. You can guess it, Mel.

Melanie Avalon

what your favorite city in the whole world? Wait, is it in, what? Is it in, I should know this, I'm embarrassed.

Barry Conrad

It's in the States.

Melanie Avalon

It is in the U.S.? Okay. Is it New York?

Barry Conrad

Yes, you got it. I was going to say that. And the other reason why it's one of my favorite, one of my favorite restaurants to share is because it's South African, which I am. So Kaya wine bar, it's like nestled in Manhattan's Upper East Side. It's a celebrated South African haven founded in 2011 by Suzanne Haupt of Leish, a native of South Africa's Free State province. Kaya means home. So that's the vibe we're sitting here. The Michelin guide highlighted it as like a South African gem in the heart of Manhattan. It's been recognized as like one of New York's essential places to eat by eater. And the New Yorker also featured Kaya noting its unique position as the city's sole South African restaurant. So I'm so ready to go. And Melanie, it offers a diverse array of South African dishes like elk tata, lamb burgers and traditional boba tea. Do you know what elk is?

Melanie Avalon

Do I know what elk is? Do I not know what elk is? Do people not know what elk is? I mean, some people don't. Wait, really? I love elk. It's my favorite. It's so good. It might be my favorite.

Barry Conrad

and get this as well. It has a selection of over 50 South African wines, which I knew you'd like. So, elk and wine.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Okay. Yes, because the purpose of this is we want to emphasize how much we love food and fasting is not just about fasting, it's about what you're eating as well. And it's about breaking the fast.

Barry Conrad

I'll just send you the link.

Melanie Avalon

they have oysters i will not be getting those.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, why not?

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. I'm done.

Barry Conrad

OK, here we go.

Melanie Avalon

No, I am going to have them with you one time and then I'm officially done.

Barry Conrad

Maybe more than one time if you actually see the light and see how good they are.

Melanie Avalon

Mm hmm. They have normal oysters and roasted oysters. Sure. For the sliders and snack. Okay, wait. So, okay. So there's sliders and snacks. There's a taco shop. There's a lot of stuff. Okay. Then there's like the, wait, so what does this mean? Is com com? What is that word? Combuis entree?

Barry Conrad

Okay, so it basically means like the kitchen, like a nautical term for cooking placed aboard a ship. So here we go. This is like the kitchen time to eat. So it's like the main course situation. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Well, for my starter, I would get the lamb skewers, which come with lamb skewers, apricot and onions, and a Pinatas reduction. So I would get them rare, completely plain, and can they put everything on the side.

Barry Conrad

Just the one, just the one thing.

Melanie Avalon

This is the starter. Oh, um, I think so. If you get some bacon, I might taste it. Wait, what are, what are drummets like duck drummets?

Barry Conrad

Jomet's a kind of like, you know, drumsticks, like, you know, like, uh, do you call it drumsticks in?

Melanie Avalon

Oh yeah, that's cool. Okay, I'll have those as well also with the sticky mango chutney sauce on the side, please.

Barry Conrad

And the mango chut- Honestly, Melanie, Mrs. Ball's chutney in South Africa is a staple and it'll change your life. It's so good. It's so good. That mango chutney.

Melanie Avalon

That's like a thing that's known there.

Barry Conrad

It's definitely a thing.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, those are my choices, how do you feel? What would you get for the starter?

Barry Conrad

How do I feel? First of all, I feel disappointed that you didn't choose oysters, but I'm gonna go.

Melanie Avalon

You can get the oysters.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to get roasted oysters and the regular oysters.

Melanie Avalon

You're getting both. You're getting roasted and the regular.

Barry Conrad

Why are you yelling?

Melanie Avalon

I'm just clarifying. There's going to be a lot of oysters.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and the roasted oysters, listen, it's caramelized shallots comes with caramelized shallots, smoked cheddar and breadcrumbs. Then I'm also going to get the lamb sosotis, which is the lamb skewers that Melanie got and the, the ian tflerikis, which is the drumettes. So I'll get the same of those two. And then I think I'm also going to get the duck a spice chicken with onion, marmalade and caya aioli. So that's like four, four trinkets, a little something, something, nothing too crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Are we going to double up on the things or share it? Like the ones that are overlapping? I guess. Let's share it. We could, but then also, how do you have your lamp code?

Barry Conrad

Well, the elk, for example, which we haven't got into yet, it has to be on the, more on the rare side, it's to stay tender, but lamb, medium rare rare, I could do, I could do either.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it sounds good. I like this menu. I really like the different, the diverse representation of animal related foods.

Barry Conrad

I knew it. So Africa is like animal protein heaven. You love it there.

Melanie Avalon

Oh man, I bet I would.

Barry Conrad

So what about a main situation for you? What are you thinking?

Melanie Avalon

So I'm not going to go the taco route, I don't think, unless they do it without taco shells. Actually, what if I, could I request just like all the meat? Because at the taco shop pick three, could they just give me the meat, like just give me the pork, the shrimp, the steak? That's too confusing. I'm going to go the entrees. Okay. I will get, I'm so excited about this el carpaccio. This is so exciting. And I love that it's an entree, like a main thing. It must be really big. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. I'm excited.

Barry Conrad

And also just to let you know as well, like in South Africa, portions, we throw down. Like we can, it's big.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, like America, like the U.S.

Barry Conrad

Maybe not quite as big, but it's on the bigger side.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Well, I'm really excited about this el carpaccio situation.

Barry Conrad

What about the, what about the commasals, which is peri peri dry scallops. You didn't like that. The look of that.

Melanie Avalon

So I don't like to get scallops when I'm out because I, I have them all the time at home and I eat pounds and pounds with them at home. There's no way on earth. If I order them out, it's going to be enough. It's going to be like a scallop. But wait, where is it? What's it called?

Barry Conrad

the camossels that's so like that's it's just above boboti come on

Melanie Avalon

Well, I do like, okay, let's get those two. I changed my mind.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, my eyes went straight to the Gatsby and this is, okay, so listen, I'm from Cape Town originally, so that's, the Gatsby is sort of like this big roll. If you can imagine like a, a French stick, but wider and bigger, and they fill it with like all kinds, like any feelings that you want, like chicken or whatever kind of animal protein and fries, sometimes it's just delicious. So I'm going to do the Gatsby, and this is described as, Portuguese roll stuffed with garam masala pulled chicken, pepper dews, cayenne pickled curvy cucumbers, mayo and fries. So I'm going to have that, the El Capachio that Mel had, and also I have to go for, just because it's the wild, some peon mac and cheese, got to do it. So I'm really going in here.

Melanie Avalon

I will look at your mac and cheese and appreciate it vicariously through you. I'm excited you're ordering it because I like looking at mac and cheese.

Barry Conrad

Would you try some? Or no?

Melanie Avalon

No, boy. Oh, no, it's not good. It wipes me out. I know. So I know like what food, Barry and I talk about this a lot. Like I know what food makes me feel good inside and out and some don't. So I'd rather not have them. Like I'm like a happier person not having it, but I still appreciate it vicariously through other people. And then I eat the food that I like, I might as well, if I'm going to love what I'm eating anyways, I might as well eat the food I love that's also not going to make me feel bad, you know?

Barry Conrad

It's a good call, you know, kind of be mad at that. Personal.

Melanie Avalon

like my personal constitution. Yeah, I had another thought about it. I don't remember. Oh, the El Carpacho. I'm excited because I do like mustard and it comes with her, it says with my mother's mustard is what it says, and a peppery arugula salad. So I might bury, I might actually have some of the accompanying sauce, the mustard.

Barry Conrad

That's awesome. Because usually, listen as you already know this, but Melanie would be like, I'll get everything, but I'll have like, you know, all the additives on the side. You know?

Melanie Avalon

There we go. That's awesome. Yep. I would just have it not at all, but I want them to feel like, I feel like it makes the chef happy if I at least get it on the side. And then other people might want to try it. So everybody wins.

Barry Conrad

Everybody wins.

Melanie Avalon

So what would you get for dessert? Is there a dessert list on here?

Barry Conrad

Yep. Scroll on down and you're going to see all kinds of other things there that you're going to that I need to point out to you like Bill Tong. Do you know what Bill Tong is, Melanie? Yes, we do.

Melanie Avalon

talked about this. Where is it on here?

Barry Conrad

So good at the meats.

Melanie Avalon

Wait a second, is this a whole other menu? Oh, is this just like meat? Oh my goodness, I miss this part of the menu. Okay, well this is great because this will be my dessert.

Barry Conrad

I knew you'd like that.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, I'll try the Biltong.

Barry Conrad

Do you want to go first?

Melanie Avalon

They put emojis, oh my gosh, they put emojis in their descriptions. I'm so not not like an actual emoji, but like a smiley face. I'm so a fan of this place. I don't think I've ever seen that in a minute. I don't know if I have never seen that in a menu. I don't think have you.

Barry Conrad

No, I haven't actually. It's actually a good point.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. I love it. Okay. Because it says South African biltong. And then underneath it says one fourth pound naturally dried beef jerky, but way better. Smiley face. Wow. That's funny. I think I would get for dessert the prosciutto. Maybe the, I don't know, what is car, Carpicola? Goose. Goose? Oh yeah. Let's try that. Yeah. Some of the meats. I would just be like, bring me a lot of meats.

Barry Conrad

Even their wineries there, you're just going to have to go to South Africa because it's just like the meat is so good to produce and the wine is so good, I'm getting excited. Is that it? Are you getting nothing else for dessert?

Melanie Avalon

And then maybe I'll repeat something like whatever I like to the moat. Okay, so when we're having the appetizers, whatever I like really like, I'll tell them to save some for dessert for me at the end and I'll have it again. So be it the duck or the lamb or I have to decide though when we're actually trying it.

Barry Conrad

Okay, for dessert for me, definitely getting the biltong, definitely getting the drouvours, which basically is dry sausage, it means that. But it's really delicious, so I'll get those two and then I'll migrate to the peppermint crisp tarte, which is like a peppermint crisp tarte, it's really, really good. And then I'll have the malva pudding, which is basically a South African delicacy, it's sticky day, sticky cake with homemade vanilla custard, so I'll get those two and the meats.

Melanie Avalon

It all sounds really good. It sounds like you feel like you're at home, which is appropriate because it's about home.

Barry Conrad

What about Vino?

Melanie Avalon

So I can't answer on the fly because I would have to look up every single one and find the organic ones and then I'd have to look at the alcohol and find the low alcohol. But if I had to guess, I really, it's really hard to know. But as far as like varietals that I'm intrigued by that I really like, I love Grenache Noir. I'm really excited by the look of that one. They are organic. So the Grenache Noir, the Foundry, that's just the first one that spoke to me and I looked it up. It looks like it's 13.5% alcohol. I try to get 13% or less, but it is organic. So I'm just gonna, just because I don't have time to look through all of them, I'm gonna go with that one for now. That one looks good.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I'm going to go for, you know, I usually go for Pinot Grigio, but we're in South Africa and there's lots of meat here. So I'm going to go for the Pinotage, which is, I've actually had that. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon

That's what I'm looking up right now, because it's like South African wine, like they're known for pinotage.

Barry Conrad

It's really good.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. Awesome. Well, great restaurant find. And I forgot, you said you have been here or have not been here.

Barry Conrad

I haven't been to this restaurant, but I'm going next time and I'm in New York. It's happening because I didn't know it existed until yeah.

Melanie Avalon

That's so exciting. You must send pictures and upload them to our Instagram.

Barry Conrad

I'll do it. I have to do it.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Okay, well, this was so, so fun for listeners. We hope you had as much fun as we did. If you would like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions at iapodcast.com. You can also go to iapodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get the show notes, which there are a lot of notes in the show notes, a lot of blinks of things we talked about, all the things. Those will be at iapodcast.com slash episode 414, which is a palindrome. And you can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad, and we are iapodcast. So anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

Hope you all have an amazing week. Thank you for listening. Keep your questions coming and happy fasting and feasting from me.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

Bye!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Mar 10

Episode 412 – Special Guest Dr. Matt Dawson, Wild Health, Finding YOUR Perfect Diet, Blood, Genetic, & Epigenetic Testing, Optimizing Biological Age, Interpreting Lab Results, AI & The Future Of Healthcare, And More!

Wild Health Website | TruDiagnostic Website

Welcome to Episode 412 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SHOW NOTES

SPECIAL GUEST

Dr. Matt Dawson is the CEO and Co-Founder of Wild Health, a genomics based precision medicine company. He is also CEO of TruDiagnostic, a deep science epigenetics company focused on human longevity testing. Dr. Dawson has published dozens of research articles, authored two textbooks, and written over 100 book chapters. He has won national awards in education and innovation and given talks in over 20 countries. He has a passion for not only human performance and longevity, but also bringing cutting edge research and science to market so that individuals can actually benefit from them. As such, he has founded 6 companies in the last decade, all of which are still in operation. Three of these have been acquired. His passion for human performance started in high school when he paired it with suboptimal natural athletic abilities to earn college scholarship offers in two different sports. His passion for longevity comes from a desire to be around as long as possible for his 4 children, wife, and future great grandchildren. He lives with that current family and two dogs in the woods of Kentucky.

Dr. Matthew Dawson attended medical school at The University of Kentucky before completing his residency in emergency medicine at The University of Utah, where he served as both chief resident and fellow. He has practiced medicine and was an associate professor at the University of Kentucky for 7 years, with an acute interest in functional medicine and, later, genomics. Dr. Dawson’s obsession with performance optimization began well before medical school. In high school, he would implement any fitness or nutrition technique that’d give him ‘an edge’ in athletics, resulting in college scholarship offers in two sports. Dr. Dawson carried this obsession with him through medical school and into his profession as a physician, earning numerous national awards for education, innovation, and leadership on account of his research and approach to health care.

‍Dr. Dawson crystallized this approach to providing patients with true health care, rather than sick care, by building Wild Health – a Precision Medicine service providing personalized, genetics-based care to help patients achieve optimal wellbeing. In that, Dr. Dawson has also trained thousands of physicians in Precision Medicine through online education, and has lectured in over twenty countries around the world. Dr. Dawson also co-hosts the Wild Health Podcast, a tool for teaching thousands about personalized, genetics-based Precision Medicine. His passion to help patients maximize their health span and perform at their absolute best considers all aspects of health: mental, physical, and spiritual.

Wild Health IG | Wild Health LinkedIn

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

WILD HEALTH: Get 20% off with code melanieavalon at wildhealth.com/melanieavalon.

TRUDIAGNOSTIC: Get 10% off at melanieavalon.com/trudiagnostic.

ONESKIN

Founded by a team of all female scientists, OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company, with products shown to reduce your skin's biological age! OneSkin addresses skin health at the molecular level, targeting the root causes of aging so skin behaves, feels, and appears younger. It’s time to get started with your new face, eye, and body routine at a discounted rate today! Get 15% off with the code IFPODCAST at https://www.oneskin.co.

MD LOGIC

Get 10% off MD Logic's Health Marine Collagen with code ifpodcast at ifpodcast.com/collagen.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 412 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Welcome back, friends, to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 412. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here today with a very, very special guest. So the backstory on today's conversation, a while ago now, I got reached out to by a company called Wild Health. And they're doing very cool things when it comes to monitoring everything in your body that you need to be monitoring to actually take charge of your health right now, to take charge of your aging and longevity, all the things. I was really intrigued by their service because I know it can be really confusing, I think, for a lot of people to really navigate what's going on in their body. And there's so many different markers to look at. There's blood, there's genetics, there's just so many things. And what I really loved about Wild Health is it's a platform that encompasses all of that and analyzes things for you and makes things very implementable and approachable. So it looks at your blood work, it looks at your DNA, your genetic tendencies, it even looks at your biological age. And we'll dive into what that actually means. What's really cool is it's really easy to do to take the test, all the things. And then you have the portal, you have your results, you get this really comprehensive, like 50-page report that I was reading last night, again, and was fascinated by. And you actually get to work with coaches and practitioners in the portal to help make sense of everything. So I think the service is going to be so helpful for so many people. And I have so many questions as well as my own personal experience to share. So I'm here with the CEO and co-founder, Dr. Matt Dawson. Dr. Dawson, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Thanks for having me. You get such a great description of what we do. You nailed it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, thank you. I really like because I feel like there are a lot of different companies trying to do what you're doing. And I like I said, I was very, very impressed with just the whole system and everything that I learned personally and and where the focuses are. But to introduce yourself a little bit to listeners. Can you tell listeners a little bit about your personal story? I know you attended medical school at the University of Kentucky and you did your residency in emergency medicine at the University of Utah. And you've published a lot when it comes to textbooks and articles and things like that. But what led you to what you're doing today with this wild health service?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Sure. Yeah. So you're right. So I went to kind of traditional medicine route at first, and it was around six years ago. I was working at an academic center. I was teaching med students and residents and writing and publishing and doing all that. I started noticing all of the science emerging around genomics and personalized medicine. And it looked to me like for the first time that we could really personalize almost everything down to the level of someone's DNA. Like we've known for a while that you can look and see what medications will or won't work, what someone's likely to have side effects from. But it looked like you could even personalize diet, exercise, sleep, supplements, all of these other things. I kind of started diving into that, went down a rabbit hole when it comes to that. My co-founder at Wild Health, Mike Malin, he's also a physician. We sequenced our DNA. We started looking into it. And around that time, he had a difficult medical issue. He found out that his lipids were through the roof, like a really dangerous level, like cause a heart attack level. So he saw his doctor. His doctor told him to do a specific diet that works for most people, but Mike's not most people. He's Mike, and he got worse on this diet. So his doctor then wanted to put him on a statin, which is fine. It helps most people. But Mike had a bunch of side effects for him. I had muscle breakdown, myopathy. And when we looked at his genetics, we saw that, oh, wow, it looks like his genetics needs to be on almost the exact opposite diet of what his doctor had put him on. And he had a very specific gene variation that made him almost guaranteed to get that muscle breakdown of myopathy. And we were kind of angry at first, but then we just realized, well, medicine is always 15 to 20 years behind. And while the science is out there, no one is doing this. And we couldn't really tolerate that. We left our universities. We started doing it for friends and family, and just started having really remarkable results when we started personalizing people's treatment and recommendations to their DNA.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I love this so much. And like I said, I was reading my report last night and it was, I guess, validating. It was nice to read some of the different sections and just see how much it aligned with me personally. So for example, in the sleep analysis, it was telling me that I have a genetic tendency to be a night owl, which is so true. In the food sections, it was telling me that I might have increased gluten and wheat sensitivity. Oh, in the mental section, there was one about how I tend to be dopamine driven, which is literally what I say about myself all the time that I feel like I keep a lot of dopamine around in my brain. So, okay, I have so many questions here. So these genetic tendencies that we have, how do you approach, because you just mentioned that, you looked at his data and you realized that he wasn't on the appropriate diet and all of these things. It mentions on wild health that there are, is it over 70,000 different SNPs? And maybe you can define what a SNP is. How do you decide which ones to look at? How to interpret them? And also, how do we know it's accurate? Because I noticed, for example, in the section that talks about your APOE, or was it the APOB? One of them, it was saying that it's actually, I think it's probably the APOE, one, that it's hard with accuracy to actually test that. So how do we know that what we're testing is accurate? How do you know what to test? And how do you know how to interpret it? Lots of questions.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, no great questions. And yeah, it's about 700,000 specific SNPs that we test, and a SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. So it just means that it's a slight variation, and it just puts you at increased or decreased risk for something. So APOE is a good example of one of those. So if you have an APOE4 gene, then you're about 200 to 300% more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease. And if you have two of those, if you have an APOE4, you're about 11 times more likely. So someone is at more risk. Now, your DNA is not your destiny. We've heard this term DNA is destiny. It's not. It's only about 20% of your health outcome. And that APOE4 is a great example of that. So one of the first patients that we saw was my mother. My grandmother had passed away of dementia of this disease, and I was worried that my mother would have this gene, and sure enough, she did. But what I told her at the time is I said, mom, this is good news, because we know about this now, and we know what to do about it. And when we put her on the program, personalizing her diet, her sleep, her exercise, in three months, she lost 40 pounds, reversed her insulin resistance, told me she felt 20 years younger, and I think that we will prevent, or at least delay by 10 to 20 years, her getting that disease. So we find these differences in our genes, and we do something about them. You ask about diet. So another example of that is actually, I told about Mike and his diet. One of this was kind of an aha moment for both of us when we look at our genes. It looked like when we looked at our genes that he and I needed to be on pretty much the opposite diets. So he had all of these sensitivities to saturated fats, where I had none of those. And I had all these sensitivities to carbohydrates. And so it looked like I almost would do really well on a ketogenic animal-heavy diet, and he would do well on almost a vegan diet. And so we tested this. We would eat the exact same thing for two weeks, do the same workouts, draw our blood. And we were eating his diet. He destroyed me in the workouts. It was much better. His lab looked great. He felt great. When we switched to my diet, I would beat him in the same workouts. I felt great. He felt horrible. His labs were bad. Mine were good. And we're like, wow, this is why it's like religious wars when people talk about diet, like people they're keto or they're vegetarian or vegan or omnivore or carnivore or Mediterranean. It's because people find the perfect diet for themselves, and they assume it's perfect for everybody else. But we're not like that. We're very bio-individual, and personalizing all of these things makes a big difference in how we feel and perform and the diseases that we get.

Melanie Avalon

It's so interesting and I think it is so relevant to so many listeners on this show because we get so many questions about people having that very debate that you just talked about. Do I do lower carb? Do I do lower fat? I think it can be really confusing and of course you can do trial and error and try it yourself but having this lens of looking at through your DNA can just be so, so helpful. And what I found really interesting is cause I really gravitate towards an animal based diet. A lot of my genetic SNPs really did seem to line up with that. So for example, I saw that I have difficulty converting a lot of the plant based sources of vitamins into their usable form in my body and so I would benefit from having an animal based diet there with those different nutrients. How do you handle potentially conflicting genetic information that may pop up? So for example, my general recommendations in my report were that I tolerate saturated fat well, that I tend to tolerate carbs like okay, like in the middle. In general I was getting like low carb recommendations but then also at the same time some of the SNPs indicated that I'd be better on a high carb low fat approach. So how do you handle that when people have SNPs that seem to be conflicting?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah. So you said something important earlier. I want to go back to you said, it seems like a lot of people are trying to do this. And I think it's important to use that word, because one of the things we realized very early is it's not easy. Like, this is very complex. So, I mean, we, we've spent over $50 million on the platform to do this. And so it we use, we built this on an AI platform that takes into account, not just all your genetics, but also the blood work and a lot of other information as well. So like, you'll get kind of the general recommendations that will pop up and populate in there based on all the different SNPs. But then we also, the last step is actually running this through a physician and a health coach filter as well. That's where we give the final recommendation to kind of edit things. And but what the AI engine does is it kind of pulls together all the different stuff to make specific recommendations. I mentioned earlier, I'll give you a good example from food. With food, we don't really actually usually talk in terms of the big macro diets, the big macro categories, like vegan, omnivore, keto, things like that. We talk in specific foods, like what are potentially super foods versus kryptonite foods. So like for my mother, a couple of the steps that you mentioned, so there's a fads too, that means she needs more of the active form of omega three from animals. She also has a collagen 5A1 snip, which means she needs more collagen protein and a VDR snip, meaning she probably needs more vitamin D, a BCMO, meaning she needs more vitamin A. So when you put those together, the algorithm said, okay, for you, the world's perfect food looks like it's probably a sardine. It has a really clean source of omega three. It has a collagen protein in the skin and the bones. It has vitamin A and vitamin D in the organs because it's a whole animal. And so it kind of put all of that together. And then for kryptonite foods, you mentioned you had some sensitivities to wheat and gluten. She had that as well. So that's an SH2B3 gene, but she also had an MCM6. So it meant dairy is inflammatory for her. So identifying kind of the super foods and kryptonite foods, we think is a better way to go about talking about food than kind of the bigger categories itself. But at the same time, if you're seeing the doctor and the health coach and you're talking through some of these things now for you, if it looks like, well, you have some genes that mean you need more, that you'll be fine with, with fats and animal, animal fats and some where you need more complex carbohydrates. Well, then we're going to look at your lab tests. So for example, if your ApoB, your kind of most atherogenic cholesterol particle is through the roof, that may give us a little bit of pause on the animal proteins. But if your hemoglobin A1c is really high and you have a lot of insulin sensitivity, that may give us some pause towards the carbohydrates. So we would tailor the recommendations based not just on the genetics, but the lab tests as well.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And then what also are your goals around activity and exercise and things like that. So it's a complex picture that we use the AI engine to make most of the recommendations. And then we add on the kind of doctor and health coach, their kind of final look and talking to the patient as well.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. Yeah, because I think, well, first of all, I want to say you did a really good job with the report of having it be very comprehensive. Like there's so much information, but also it is very approachable. It's very readable. So I really appreciate that aspect. And I really liked that. So basically AI can, you know, analyze and generate all of these findings, but then having that conversation with a real human being who can walk you through it. And, and that's what I remember when I met with my health coach, she was very knowledgeable and helpful in saying like, this is what this actually means. Like she was saying, like, you know, I know there's like a lot of data here, but here's what we're actually looking at. And then like you just said, when we actually look at your blood work, what do we see and what changes should we make? And I actually made a very practical, implementable change immediately after having this conversation. And that was that, cause I'm looking right now at my, like the summary at the very end. And it looks at like your lipids, your methylation, your vitamins and micronutrients, your hormones, your inflammation and your insulin resistance slash, slash metabolism. The one category that's like all red is my methylation category, which I have known. I've, I've known, I, I struggled with that in the past, but it was nice because talking to her, she was like, okay, like what, you know, what you need to do is you really need to be on a methyl folate supplement here. It's also interesting because, you know, based on the whole context of that, which it talks about in the report, apparently there are different ways that you could go about addressing it based on the whole comprehensive picture. But what she was saying with me was to get on that and now, and I've been on that and I've seen a big difference. So, so thank you. That was like a very like practical change that I made.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And I'll make one point about that, about the provider and things, too. This is called precision medicine. I like to remind people it's precision medicine, not perfect medicine. So our recommendations as a physician or a health coach or a provider is only as good as the amount of data we have. So the fact that we have an incredible amount of data about your genes, all the biomarkers, scientific data, all of this, means we're going to be able to give much better recommendations, but we still need to follow that over time and make sure that what we're recommending is actually working. So I think the relationship part of this is really important, too, having that relationship with a physician health coach that can interpret, like you were mentioning. And like things I mentioned earlier, like from my mother, they identified that sardines was the world's perfect food. Well, the perfect food and perfect diet for you is the one that you're going to be able to follow as well. If she had said, that's disgusting, I'm not going to eat sardines, well, then we would have just found other ways to kind of plug those holes and give her that extra support that she needs. So it is definitely, the AI platform is very powerful, but having that human with it and following someone over time, because humans are complex, is a very important part of the process.

Melanie Avalon

with the evolution of AI, is it continuously updated? And do you ever have to retest your genes ever, or is that technology pretty much done like you've done the testing, and now AI can just adapt to interpreting it?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah. So you would not have to retest your genetics. The AI itself, though, is getting better and is making the recommendations better and better over time. So when I say AI, though, I specifically think about two different things. So to be able to build all these recommendations, we need machine learning. A human's brain isn't, it's not the right tool to look at a million different variables and make recommendations. So you need machine learning for that. So that's what the platform is built on initially. However, the other thing that I mean when I say AI is large language models. So this has been a real game changer. So we took all of our, all of our IP, all the recommendation engine and all of that and put it on a large language model so that we could interact with it better. So for example, I have this app that we built on my phone, and I can actually interact with it. I can ask like I was giving a talk at an event in DC a few months ago, and I said to it, I said, Hey, I'm giving a talk. I'm in DC. I'm saying it's the Omni in DC. What should I have for lunch? And it gave me a specific meal at a restaurant point one miles away. That was based on it knows my genetics and I was on my lab work and who I slept that night, it knew that I lifted weights and went for a run that day, gave me the perfect meal at the perfect time there. So really cool stuff. And it can also it just pushes information like a few months ago, I got a notification from the LLM has all the status said, Hey, you are about you're overtraining, you're gonna get injured or sick. So I chatted back with it and said, Well, how do you know that? And it showed me all my HRV data, my resting heart rate trends, and I thought, Oh, yeah, I've been traveling and working out just as hard not sleeping. Well, historically, I would have just pushed through that and gotten sick or injured. But I saw this and then I said, Well, give me a program to recover over the next two weeks. And it knows my goals. At the time I was training to climb this mountain in Ecuador, and trying to improve my pickleball game. Those are my only only two goals. So it gave me recommendations personalized to me for those goals and to recover and follow that. So the LLMs are a real game changer and being able to interact with your with your data. Now that app itself, unfortunately, is not on the market. It actually was so good, we ended up taking it down because we were worried from a regulatory standpoint, it'd be seen as a practicing medicine. But we built it into our product where now, if you ask a question of your doctor and health coach, the LLM intercepts it, it gives them a suggested response because it knows everything about you. And the doctor hasn't memorized your 700,000 genes probably. And then the provider can kind of modify it or just use it or reject it and give a new answer. But we found when we first implemented that, the providers only use it about 20% of the time. But now it's over 90% of the time because the answers are phenomenal. Like they're just really good, much better than a than a regular person would give an answer.

Melanie Avalon

Do you think AI will ever completely take the place of humans?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, great question. So there's a couple different ways to think about that. Like if you asked me the question, is AI better at making medical diagnosis than doctors? There's no question. It's just much better. Like there's lots of data on that. There's also data comparing like Chad GPT to physicians and blinded. Well, because people said, well, okay, it's better making diagnosis, but the people are more empathetic. So then they tested that and when people were blinded chatting with a doctor, Chad GPT, they actually rated Chad GPT more empathetic too.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. I believe that.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So if you were to tell me your options are a doctor or AI, I take the AI every day, like I just do, and I am a physician. I don't actually think that's the decision though, just like when, let's think about chess. It took a long time before Big Blue, which is an AI machine from IBM, beat the world's best chess player. But the best chess player in the world now isn't a machine or a human, it's this combination. It's kind of a centaur. So what you want is a physician you really trust who stays super up to date and who is using the AI. Like you want the combination of the two is what I think the best medical care is now and in the future.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'm really interested by it. I did an episode recently on AI. The whole book was actually about the future of health care in regards to like technology and AI and stuff. And he was saying that the reason the synergy of humans and AI can surpass just AI is that AI doesn't have the ability to, I guess at least right now, to think outside of its own rule system. And sometimes you need to think outside of... You need to not break the rules, but you need to be able to think outside the box in that regard.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, I go really deep on this, especially the last couple weeks has been a crazy time in AI. And I would say, I don't know if I, I think you actually could train the AI to be much better at humans and we have that thinking out of the box and being creative. So I'm not I'm not sure if that's the separator. Maybe it is. I can give you another example, though, where them working together is really important. We had a patient who was young, like in the early 40s, executive came to us very healthy, no medical problems, just wanted to optimize probably like the 95th percentile already wanted to go to the 99th percentile. So great. We ran all of the stuff. And we got an alert from the AI from the large language model that said, Hey, notice some things like in his genetics and labs and things like this guy needs a deeper dive on cardiovascular health. So I as a physician or clinician, like no one would have said that this guy's perfectly healthy, young, we would have not got a clearly scan, which is an AI guy to CT angiogram for him, we would not have done that for him. It just didn't make sense. And from a textbook, but the AI picked it up. However, then actually having him do that, I don't know if he would have actually gone through the trouble of doing it, because he felt fine if just the AI was telling him, but he trusted us as a clinician. So it was kind of that combination of the AI finding it and then and then him trusting the human. And in fact, he got the scan, we got an emergency call from the radiologist who said he needs to go to the cath lab immediately he had like a 90% lesion and his LED, which is called the widow maker artery. And if he hadn't had this done, he probably would have died of a massive heart attack in the next year or two. And this was an example of the AI and the human either one of them alone, like would have been probably been a little deficient wouldn't have gotten this outcome. And now, I mean, this guy who he had two teenage daughters, and he's going to be with them hopefully for 40 more years instead of one to two years. So that's, that's just the example that pops to my mind when I think about humans and AI kind of working together to really deliver the next level of of medical care.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, yeah, I love that. Do you think there will be any, since AI has this super power to be able to analyze all this data, do you think it will come up with any really surprising findings or change our opinions on what we've historically thought about different medical conditions, treating them, like things like that? Paradigm shifts, basically.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

100%. And that's kind of why other guys, that's kind of why I push back on his thinking outside the box. Because when I look at this, like, AI, and people could argue about this word, I see AI is much more creative than humans already. And I wouldn't even say that a year ago, it's just progressing so quickly. Like, when you watch the emerging things that come out, or its ability to put things together, like creativity is really about pulling together kind of disparate things from different places to come up with new and novel ideas. They're really it's, it's fusing different different areas. And AI is amazing at that. So I yeah, I think AI, it's already in drug discovery, so many other areas, it's making a tremendous difference and really changing the care, we see it all the time and the recommendations that it makes, and the things that it comes up with, it's, it's very creative, and is definitely going to be showing us new ways to deal with things.

Melanie Avalon

Actually to that point, because so last night, so like I said, I did this a while ago, I read my report then last night, I went in and downloaded my report again, when it's generating the report, is it updating it when you go in?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, I don't think it is if you don't have new data, and I say I don't think it is because if it was like a year or two ago, then I think you would get a new report because there's been updates. But when you would get a new report is one, if there are updates pushed in the system or two, when you're feeding it more data. So if you had just had a new lab test, for example, then there would be a new report. But if there's no new data, then it would be the same report and recommendations.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, gotcha. One other question there. Oh, so when people are reading their results, when it's talking about these different SNPs, these, you know, genetics that people have, it'll say that you might have an increased or reduced risk of XYZ, you know, whatever condition or thing it's talking about in that section. How should we interpret that word risk? Especially if we don't know what the normal risk is for something. Yeah, how do we know the severity of what this means with this word risk? And is it like absolute or relative? Like, what's going on?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

there? That's a great question, and we could actually try to build that into the report and say it increases your risk by X amount, which means this, so therefore this. That would turn it into hundreds of pages, so that's part of where the human comes in, and that's why it's important to have a doctor and health coach, because if you have a PEMT SNP or some other SNP that says, oh, based on this, you have this increased risk of blood cancers or something like that, that can sound scary, but if you have the physician or the provider who has a context around that, it's like, okay, yeah, that means your risk of blood cancer goes from 0.5% to 0.6%, then that's like a one in a thousand increased risk that you got, so it's not a really big number, or even if it's a 1% for a 2%, that can sound scary, because you think, oh, my risk has doubled. Well, it's doubled from a relative risk standpoint, but still, from going from 1% to 2%, that's a 1% absolute, so it's a 1 in a hundred risk, so it's not really much to be worried about, like the stress from you thinking about that and constantly trying to do something about it is probably worse than having it, so it is important to have someone who can give you that context with these, quote, unquote, risks as well.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, awesome. Yeah, I did notice in the report that it was with one of the cancer related things that it actually gave me a little bit more data more in the language that you're using. And I had a feeling it was because for what the reason you just said, because you want it to be clear, like what it actually means practically. Okay, on the blood side testing side of things, so for listeners, so when you do this program, you get the genetic information, which that was a saliva test, right? The genetics. That's right. And then you also do a blood test and get a lot of biomarkers. How did you decide which biomarkers to include on the blood test and how did you decide the ranges?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

We basically said, okay, in the first assessment of someone, we want a lot. We kind of want as much information as we can reasonably get that doesn't kind of break the bank for them. So it's a large amount of tests initially. On follow-up testing, we try to get more targeted and specific, like what did we find? What are the risks? What are the things that we need to follow? So it's normally smaller tests. So we really picked, I think there's around 50-something biomarkers we start with, and we just think those are the ones that are most impactful. Now, there are others we could add. So if we do the testing and we're talking and we find that someone has elevated inflammatory markers and we just can't figure out exactly why, then we may add a lot more things. We may add some food sensitivity testing or some other toxin testing. If we're talking to someone and it sounds like hormones are an issue, we may do more advanced hormone testing. So the initial set is designed to give us the most bang for our buck, the most information without breaking the bank, and then we get very targeted from there when picking the lab test. And oh, you mentioned reference ranges. Yeah, so there are certainly classic reference ranges, and we'll use those for a lot of the tests, but others we try to use ranges that we consider more optimal for. There's an example, you mentioned methylation status. So homocysteine, I think a standard lab panels, they'll say it's normal if it's under 14. Well, we want you to be kind of under 10. Vitamin D, you may on some lab reports not get a quote unquote deficient number unless you're under 20. We want you definitely to be above 30 and optimally to be around 50 or more. So we do modify some to be more optimal range than just non-diseased.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, one of the personal findings I had, this was really interesting to me because this has been my theory for like a decade. And then getting my information back, I was like, okay, maybe, maybe this is correct, which is that, and this is again, this is showing how you look at the blood and the genetics. I always have high B12, like always, I test high for it. And so I tested high on this one for the blood work as well. But it said in my genetic analysis that I have a SNP which makes it hard for B12 to get into my cells. And so when I was talking with the practitioner to reviewing everything, I was like, oh, could this maybe be why it's always high for me because it's not getting into my cells, it's just like staying in my bloodstream. She agreed with me on that. So I thought that was really, really interesting. Another question, so the biological age test that people take. So what is the role of that? What is the difference between biological age and chronological age?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Sure. Yeah. So, chronologically, it's just pretty easy. That's how many years you've been alive. Most people know that. If you don't, you can look at your driver's license and there it is. The biology age is different. So, first off, age is the number one risk factor for almost every chronic disease. But we all know people who may be 40, but they look and feel and perform like a 30-year-old or a 50-year-old. So, that's more of a biologic age. What is your risk of getting diseases? Morbidity. And what is your risk of dying? Mortality. And traditionally, for years, there's been multiple of these biologic age tests that are out there. Most of them are not good. They're kind of junk. They're not validated. They may just be based on some random algorithm. But are they really telling you what you want to know, which is, am I increasing or decreasing risk of dying? And am I increasing or decreasing risk of getting disease? That's what we really want to know. That's kind of a true biologic age. At Wild Health, we use a company called True Diagnostic for that. Now, True Diagnostic is just to call out a conflict here. I am CEO of True Diagnostic as well. So, we were using True Diagnostic for years before I came in and started working with True Diagnostic. The reason why I like True Diagnostic is because of one specific test they have that I have used for years I really like, which is called the PACE test. So, I don't actually care that much if we get your biologic age back. And let's say you're chronologically 40, but your biologic age tells me you're 36 versus 44. I'm just going to try to optimize you either way. And if it tells me you're 44, biologically, and let's say that we believe that result, well, are you doing everything perfect now and you just had a really rough go of it in your 20s and 30s? Or is it reflecting something that's going on right now? That's unclear to me as well. What I like about the PACE test, this is a test about by Duke, it tells you what is your rate of aging right now. So, it's information right now. And what's great about it is it is very sensitive to change. Meaning, for example, if you get pregnant, that's a physiologic stress and your rate of aging goes up about 20 percent, but then it comes back down to normal when you deliver the baby. Same thing happens if you get COVID, have hip surgery, get a car accident, your rate of aging goes up, but it comes back down when you recover. What this allows me to do as a clinician is to do end-of-one experiments to figure out what is going to reduce your rate of aging. So, Stanford did a great study. Actually, it's not a great study. There are a lot of problems with the study, but the interesting thing about the study was there's this twin study where they move people back and forth between a vegan and an omnivore diet. And then they measured lots of things, but one of the things they measured was this PACE of aging. And they found that in eight weeks, changing your diet, you can have an effect on your rate of aging.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, we could change someone's diet and see how it affects the rate of aging. Or if someone says, I want to go to Panama and get IV stem cells. Well, that's expensive. If you're going to invest $40,000, it would be good to have an objective measure of something like rate of aging that we could look at and see if it affects that. Or if you're going to try a wrap of ice in or some other supplement stacks or other things. It's nice to have an integrator of all your health, like rate of aging to follow over time and try to push down as low as possible.

Melanie Avalon

okay, I am loving this part of the conversation so much. I mean, I've been loving the whole thing, but I'm really loving this. And I just pulled up my report as well. So mine was 10.64 years younger was my biological age, which it says puts me in the top 16% of the population. For that pace that you were talking about, mine was 0.67.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

That's that's incredible. Yeah. So the way the pace works is if you get a score of this one point zero, that means you're aging at the normal rate for someone your age and sex. If it's one point two, you're aging 20 percent faster. If it's point eight, you're you're aging 20 percent slower. So point six seven is remarkable. That means you're aging at two thirds normal rates. That means for for over 30 years, you're only going to age 20. You'll be 10 years younger than you should be in 30 years from now. So that is that is definitely one of the lowest ones I've seen. That's really incredible. It just means that you're you're doing a lot of things right. Like you're killing it. That's a really impressive pace score.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, wow. Okay. I'm really excited. And you said this was based on.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, this is developed by Duke. They have a really large cohort called the Dunedin cohort is a large group of people out of New Zealand that were followed for decades. And they followed them and watched how they aged, what diseases they got and things. And then they drew longitudinal blood samples over time. And then from that, they could derive and figure out what is your pace of aging based on different epigenetic markers. So this is epigenetics. So we sequence someone's DNA once, that's your genetics, that never changes. But I mentioned earlier, genetics is 20% of your health outcome. The other 80% are epigenetics, what you do, what you eat, your stress levels, how you sleep. And so you're doing all of that right, it seems like. And so the way we measure this pace is we look at gene expression, epigenetics. So it looks at about a million gene sites and tells how much each one is turned up or turned down, how much you're expressing those good or bad genes. And you turn them up and down by changing different lifestyle factors. And so from that, then they can derive what is your pace of aging. So that's how it is from that Duke study specifically, but that's a remarkable pace, that's great.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. And for listeners, when you get your report, it breaks it down into all these different organ systems, so 11 different systems, and it shows you are you aging, you know, slower or the same or faster in each one. So it's like heart, inflammation, metabolic brain, musculoskeletal, kidneys, liver, lungs, blood, immune hormones.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, and to be specific not only about that, so technically on the report, the trade report, you're going to get three different clocks. So Harvard developed a clock on the Olmec M.H. And that is probably the one where you said you're 10 years younger. That's the best predictor of kind of mortality, like your risk of dying. So you have a much lower risk of dying than someone your age. The other one you mentioned with the Oregon systems, that's from Yale. So Yale developed that one. It's called the symphony age. That's right. And because we age in a heterogeneous manner, like if someone drinks odd alcohol, their liver is going to age more quickly. If they're smoking, their lungs are going to age more quickly. So that's a nice one to figure out kind of maybe what is your weakest link. And then the pace one is from Duke. So three very different epigenetic clocks there.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, and so they should in theory align or do they often not?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Well, they're giving you different information. So, yours are pretty aligned. Like, you're only getting ages 10 years younger and your pace is 0.67. Both of those are remarkable. I don't see your symphony age, but most of your organ systems are probably going to be lower as well. Maybe not all of them. So, they do line up in general, but they're measuring three different things. So, they're really telling you different information. And I will say for any of your listeners that do this, like, don't be disappointed when your results aren't like Melanie's. That's a phenomenal result you've got.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, wow. Yeah, for the symphony, they're all aging slowly except for immune and hormones. Very interesting.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And things change over time too, so it could be that when you repeat the test, there could just be a certain reason at that time that those may be a little off as well.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, this is so interesting to me. Two quick questions. One, because you're mentioning this, well, first of all, I love this idea about how one of them, like the pace is looking at like your pace of aging. That is so, so cool. Practically, it seems like a person could be aging slower. And then like you were saying, that means when you live chronologically this amount of time, but you're only going to quote age this other amount of time. And at the same time, it seems like there's a limit to how long we can live. Basically, my question is, do people age at different rates, but then is there still like this final timeline that once you hit it, you hit it?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

What I'll say to you is, so far, no one has ever not died necessarily that we have on record. That we're aware of. Yeah, so where is that limit? People argue over that all the time, like, is there an intrinsic limit? Is it 120? Like, where is it? I don't know. And as science progresses, like, we're going to get better and better. People are living longer and longer. But yes, it's really about slowing the rate of aging. And the other thing about the slowing rate of aging, it's not just about living longer. You're just going to feel better and perform better. So it's not even like how much time we're adding to your life by slowing the rate of aging. But I mean, when you're 60, it'd be great if you feel and perform like you're 50 or 40. And when you're 80, like, you feel like you're 60. So it's really about optimizing your health now and how you feel later, too, is that the rate of aging, that's the big thing. Because most of us don't actually die of old age. We die of cardiovascular disease, dementia, cancer. These are the big killers. So while health, we're trying to slow down your rate of aging and optimize and make you feel as good as we can now. But we're also really aggressively screening for and trying to prevent those big things as well at the same time, because that's really what's going to lead to a shorter life for most of us.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I have sort of a nuanced question. I hope I can articulate it. Let's say a person gets a test, like does this test, does the true diagnostics and gets all this aging information. So they have the potential to make lifestyle changes that will change the epigenetics. And if they are to retest, you know, in the future, hopefully they would see a beneficial change in that they're now aging slower based on these lifestyle changes that change their epigenetics. Is aging itself still a factor going against us? And what I mean by that is, even if they make these beneficial changes, if they test a year from now, does that year of aging, is that always going to be kind of a negative in affecting their rate of aging?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

If someone, if two people, let's say two people are doing the exact same things, they have the same genetics and everything else, if one of them is chronologically a year older, they're just going to have higher risk factors. So, it just is a risk factor in and of itself. Now, I think you were kind of asking the question like could maybe, and you tell me if this is a question, what was the question maybe like can you like reverse your biologic age and kind of be younger over time as well? Was that the kind of

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I think this is the reason I thought about it, because I was like, okay, I feel good about my results right now, so if I retest in a year and I haven't changed anything, but I've aged a year, is that going to slightly make my results not as good?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Right, so if you're not changing anything, you test in a year, you're in the same position, your rate of aging should, so what would most likely happen is your rate of aging.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, does aging affect the rate of aging?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah no it doesn't so okay now i got you yeah so your rate of aging if you're not doing anything anymore in poorly or any better should stay the same so the rate of should change so what you see for example you have that call your rate aging is say point six seven. And then in the three years you retest your rating still point six seven but your biologic age the one where you got a number that probably is only gonna go by two years instead of the three years. So that's that's the what you can see from that.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, gotcha. I've had David Sinclair on the show a few times and he has, you know, he came out with a book and his whole hypothesis was aging is a disease. Do you think aging is a disease?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, I think it's semantics, and what I mean by that is if we want to get, like, funding from NIH and places like that, it makes sense to call aging a disease. At the same time, aging is unnatural. Everyone ages, so is that does everyone have a disease here? So it really kind of depends on what you're trying to do with the word, like does it lose its meaning if you say aging? Now I've heard some people, like the argument, which is an interesting one, that disease, to kind of flip this around, disease is just aging of certain organs. So it's another way to look at it. When we have dementia, that's just aging of the brain in an accelerated fashion, or cardiovascular disease, aging of the heart. So is aging a disease? I think, honestly, the answer to that is it's a semantic question, and it's around words. If it's helpful for us to think of it as a disease so that we actually get more funding to treat it, then that's great. Because if we were to able to spend money on reducing the rate of aging of people, that would be way more effective than all the research that's going into individual diseases because aging is the number one risk factor for pretty much every chronic disease.

Melanie Avalon

That's pretty much the argument or the thoughts I subscribe to as well. Okay. I could ask you a million more questions, but I will stop myself. So listeners, I think you can see just how incredible this wild health platform is. So to recap, when you do this, you get all of this. So you get that genetic test where you're getting your risks for health based on your genetic DNA, you're getting that blood work, so a picture of what's happening right now and looking at it through these idealized ranges. And then also this biological age test where you're looking at epigenetics and looking at your rate of aging and things like that. And you get to work with a practitioner to help make sense of everything. But it's really an incredible platform. I'm so, so excited about it. Yeah, when listeners sign up and do this, how often do you recommend they do retesting? What will it look like practically for listeners to do this service?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, so what happens if someone signs up, they get DNA tests comes to their house, the blood work is just we just put an order in and you get that done. A lot of the testing is done at your house where we arrange it. You have the meeting with a physician health coach and then kind of the cadence from there, the retesting depends on what's going on and what we find. Sometimes we may repeat testing pretty quickly based on what we see or sometimes maybe it's not until another three or six months. It kind of depends on what we identify are the main issues and what we want to work on. Some things take a while to change, other things change pretty quickly. So after the initial all the testing and the meetings with the providers, it's a pretty individualized and personalized program from there just based on what you need.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. So friends, listeners, I really cannot recommend this enough and we have an awesome offer for you guys. So thank you so much for that. You can get 20% off a wild health membership when you use the code Melanie Avalon and that will be at wildhealth.com slash Melanie Avalon. So definitely check that out. This is, this has been so amazing. What are you most excited about with the future of all of this?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, it's very clear to me. It's epigenetics. So, the pace of aging and all that, that comes from epigenetics, but there's so much more we can do. There's a true diagnostic. We just did this big study with Harvard where we found that we could actually predict and report on hundreds, if not thousands, of biomarkers just with an epigenetic test. So, you get so much data at much lower cost. So, there's a new product called TrueHealth that True Diagnostic has reported on about 130 biomarkers with the same just few drops of blood that the TrueAge test uses as well. So, in the future, in the next few years, we'll be able to give tens of thousands of dollars worth of data and biomarkers for hundreds of dollars. So, just the amount of data that we have to optimize our self-worth and to prevent disease and predict diseases is going up exponentially.

Melanie Avalon

Amazing. How often do you take your blood work?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

I go overboard with it. I'm probably once a month testing, but I'm always doing different experiments and I want the data. So I'm testing a lot. I don't really recommend that often to anybody else. It's a lot.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Dawson. This has been incredible. Again, listeners go to wildhealth.com slash Melanie Avalon, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 20% off. Yeah, this has been so incredible and exciting. Thank you so much for all you're doing. It's changing so many lives. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Thank you, Millie. It was a lot of fun. You asked great questions, so thanks so much for having me on.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Feb 23

Episode 410 – Autophagy Genes, Biohack Yourself, Fruitarianism, Eating Timing, Barefoot Shoes, Serrapeptase & MCT Oil, Fat-Fueled Exercise Problems, Protein Needs, And More!