Search Results for: collagen

Support!

Help Make The Intermittent Fasting Podcast Possible!

Hi Friends! We put a ton of time and energy into researching and producing The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. You can help support us on Patreon! Every dollar helps!

Aug 18

Episode 383: Red Light Mask, Hyaluronic Acid, Ketone Breath, Diet Wars, Processed Food Addiction, Nitrates, Nitrites, Red Meat, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 383 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

APOLLO NEURO: Use The Power Of Soundwave Therapy To Instantly Address Stress By Instigating Your Brain's "Safety" State With The Touch Of A Button! Check out Melanie's Interview With Dr. Dave Rubin for all the science. For 15% off go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST.

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

APOLLO NEURO: For 15% off go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST.

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Listener Q&A: Erin - [I've been] tasting that metallic ketone taste in my mouth shortly after my meal. I haven’t heard you discuss this phenomenon... Any thoughts?

Listener Q&A: Andrea - Is organic “nitrate free” deli style meat safe to eat in large quantities?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 383 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 383 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I'm good. I'm torn because I just thought of a few different things I want to tell you, and I'm torn about which to tell you. I don't want to have none of them all. Okay, rapid fire, rapid fire, thing one. I'm a little bit concerned about all the packages that are coming soon because last week, okay, backtracking. What type of water do you drink?

Vanessa Spina:
me up so much. I drink typically spring water. I buy it in glass bottles. It's carbonated but we also have a filter that we put on our water system in our house here. So it's basically like filtered water from the water reservoir which is quite good in Prague and then I carbonate that myself. That's what I'm drinking right now. How about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that's incredible. I would have a water system, but I'm in an apartment. So I only drink the glass bottled water. It's like what I drink. I drink still spring water. There's like a brand here in the US called Mountain Valley. And then Whole Foods has a brand of I think Italian water, regardless. That's what I drink. I drink the water bottles and glass. And then last week, all the Whole Foods didn't have any water. It was like going away. Like every time I went, there was like less water bottles and glass and then less and glass. And I was like, what is happening? So and Whole Foods carries a their own store brand line that's from Europe as well, which is amazing. And then last week, I noticed that because I go every day and I get water bottles and glass, it's kind of like part of my resistance training. Like you carry around your kids, I go get like 24 glass water bottles. Like they're my kids. And I noticed they were like going away. Like there was like less and less and less. And I was like, what is happening? Where's the water going? And I was having like a panic moment. I was having flashbacks to COVID of like stock up on the toilet paper, but it was like the glass water bottles. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I kind of like panic ordered. I like sought out the company, this Mountain Valley company. And I realized I could order direct from them. And I was like, I cannot run out of water. So I ordered so much water. Like so much. I don't even know how much water I ordered that's coming. We're talking like maybe 100 glass bottles. And the thing is now Whole Foods has their water back. So I think tomorrow and I kind of like panics. I found one Whole Foods that had lots of water. So I went there and I just took their entire inventory. So I'm already like stocked up on water now. And now tomorrow, I think I have 100 bottles showing up. So there's a lot of water coming.

Vanessa Spina:
I think you're sorted if there's any kind of emergency then.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm like, I'm good. I know, but I'm like, it's coming. It's coming. And I just, I just heard that I had a package to the door and I was like, is that the water? Didn't get a great workout for sure. Oh, I know. I know. So water. So if you're ever thirsty, you know where to go. Have you had that panic moment where like you think something's running out?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but for me, it's more like I see sales like when when there's a sale on something, I buy like everything. We have like this assortment of different things like right now, my protein pudding I have this chocolate protein pudding that I love and it went on sale like a month ago. So I bought like everything. It was like half price. So I wanted so many of them and they're not cheap. So my fridge, we have like this double door fridge and we've had so many people visiting us in the past six weeks and they're all like what is with you in the puddings because like they open and there's like a hundred puddings and I'm like, I'm not obsessed with them. They just were on sale. And they've been taking up so much room in our fridge that I'm like, I'm really excited because I'm starting to get through them like we're going to have more space for other things in the fridge. But yeah, I I will buy whenever there's a sale, I like stock up on things. So and yeah, if something is getting discontinued or you know, I definitely stockpile things but I also find it really helpful. I started doing something the last few years, which is whenever I'm buying like makeup or anything for like the beauty or face anything for the bathroom like toiletries, I guess I always buy three of them at a time and I just keep them in the bathroom. So I have like this stockpile. So whenever I run out of my foundation or mascara or lipstick, I just open the drawer and there's a box there and they're all like stacked nicely and it's really nice because you know, whenever you're running low on something, I'm like, I have to order it and just I try to buy threes of everything, threes or fours of everything.

Melanie Avalon:
That's a smart system. And I just realized I do that system with, I do that with everything makeup mostly and everything food, honestly, like have the, have the backup. I don't like to be, I don't like to be on like, uh, we only got one, you know, one layer of this.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and it makes me feel really abundant.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Yeah, it does. I like it because you are. Yeah. I'm actually about to start reading. Um, I had a call yesterday, question, cause I have a lot of like calls with brands and stuff. And do you ever get on a call and you kind of realize halfway through the call that maybe it was more of an important call than you thought? Cause I don't really like I'm meeting with so many people all the time. I don't really prep the calls that much. Like I don't really look them up beforehand. I just jump on the call and like, cause I figured they'll, they'll tell me about themselves. Like when I talked to them. So like yesterday I was having a call and then he started talking about like working with the United nations and like Deepak Chopra. And I was like, Oh, I feel like I should have done some research here. Point being, I'm going to start reading Deepak's new book called abundance. Have you heard of it?

Vanessa Spina:
I love him. I love his voice and listening to his audiobooks.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, apparently this one is about financial abundance and I'm really excited to read it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's great. He just has the most soothing voice ever. Do you ever listen to him on audio? I actually

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know that I actually have and my sister's obsessed with him. So I'm excited to read read this book

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love him and I love his soothing voice. It's just, yeah, he's amazing. How old?

Melanie Avalon:
What is he, I, he seems like, he seems timeless.

Vanessa Spina:
He must be in his 60s or something now, because I've been listening to him since university. Oh, nice.

Melanie Avalon:
It's very, very nice.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, that sounds like a great book.

Melanie Avalon:
I will let you know and I think I'll save my other story. My other story has to do with something crazy that happened with chat GPT. I got in another argument with it and it's, it's crazy what it said to me. I'm still recovering. So that's a teaser for next week. Anything new in your life?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, we've been working on the collagen, tone collagen. I'm super excited about it. I think it's launching in August. So I'm not sure when it's.

Melanie Avalon:
coming out. This comes out August 19th. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
It might be out right now. I'm not sure on the exact day, but it's supposed to be in early to mid-August, so it might be out right now, but I'm super excited about it. I'm just so excited about the research behind it. It has randomized controlled trials behind it, and I'm loving taking it every day. We added hyaluronic acid in it, which it turns out, for years, I was taking things topically that had hyaluronic acid in it, and I found out more recently through research that it's such a large molecule, you actually have to eat it. We added hyaluronic acid into it, and that has also a ton of scientific evidence behind it showing that it improves the appearance of the skin and reduces fine lines and wrinkles by 15% to 20%. I'm really excited. I've been on this skin health journey with red light, and I've been wearing my red light therapy mask, and I've been getting lots of compliments on my skin, and now I think adding this in is going to be... I'm just really excited to see what it's going to do for myself. I'm also excited for anyone who tries it, but it's so cool when there actually is research, because there are so many things that people market and sell that have no evidence behind it at all. I think, especially these days with social media and things like the social media platform with the... It's getting banned. What is it called? TikTok? Yeah, with TikTok. You see these videos. I'm not on TikTok, but people send me things, and it's like, oh my gosh, people are just making stuff up, and they can make up anything and make these claims and put it in a TikTok video, and people will believe it. You really want to find the stuff that actually has scientific backing and evidence, so you don't waste your money on things. I think it's really exciting that it has so much evidence. One of my favorite protein researchers, Dr. Jose Antonio, he has this hilarious Instagram account, and in his stories, every day he posts reels and videos like that that people make where they're trying to sell stuff, and he just debunks it in five seconds. He's like, this is a lie. This is not true. Especially there's this one testosterone supplement that all these guys are selling, saying that it turns you into this testosterone raging beast of a man, and he's just like, this is totally made up.

Melanie Avalon:
by this. Do you know a supplement it was? I'm just curious because I've been researching that recently.

Vanessa Spina:
Honga, Ali or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, do you know what the ingredient is?

Vanessa Spina:
Actually, Huberman, I think, may have promoted it incorrectly. I think Jose was telling me that. It's called Tonga Ali, and that's the marketing name, and it's all over social media. And there's these people make these videos showing this guy, who's just like this average guy, and he takes Tonga Ali or whatever, and then he turns into this muscle-bound, raging testosterone-fueled guy, and it's just not true at all. So it's crazy what you put. You can make an Instagram reel or a TikTok video or a post or whatever and just say whatever you want, and people will believe it. So you really don't want to waste your money on things and find stuff that actually has scientific evidence. And if it has randomized control trials behind it, placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled studies showing that it actually made a difference compared to placebo, that's something worth spending your money on, because things are expensive these days, but you really want to invest in yourself, invest in things that have the backing. So I'm really excited about it. That's pretty much what I've been working on. The last week's the packaging of it, which I love, which we were talking about before. We both love the packaging on our latest things. So yeah, that's pretty much mostly what I've been working on.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it so much. Could not agree more about the ingredients and you'll be proud. I, I got out your red light mask and I was like, going to use it. I was going to, like, I was like ready. And then I realized I had to charge it the first time. And so now it's charged. So maybe, okay, today, today, today's the day I'm feeling it.

Vanessa Spina:
And I want to know if you think it looks cute because I definitely think it's not a creepy looking mask and I'm proud of that because a lot of them are really creepy looking.

Melanie Avalon:
hard goal or task.

Vanessa Spina:
there was one that I was testing that was so creepy looking. And I think I was doing a call with Scott and I like put it on and he was like, whoa. I was like, all wearing this and see if I freak him out.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. Assuming your supplement is out now, your collagen, even if it's not, how can people – what's the links and the codes and all the things for everything?

Vanessa Spina:
If you go to toneprotein .com, you can sign up and you will receive the launch discount, which will be the biggest discount that we do on it. And that if you sign up at toneprotein .com, you'll be added on the list. And if it's already out, you can probably go right to MD Logic and find Tone College in there. But if you sign up on the email list, you will get that launch discount.

Melanie Avalon:
for it. Awesome. And how about the red light mask? Oh, wow. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
for asking. That's at ketogenicgirl .com. And hopefully Melanie is going to send me a photo of what she looks like in the mask. So we can see if it looks creepy or not. Let us know if she thinks it looks creepy or not, or if she thinks it looks cute.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, maybe, maybe, because I don't know. Well, I think you know this. You probably know this. So those aforementioned business calls. Most people in the world do Zoom, like they do video calls. And I don't. I just don't. I just call in. I call in. I wait for the question of, oh, we can't see you. And I'm like, no, I'm just calling in every time. And it's really awkward. Maybe I could start calling in on video with my red light mask on.

Vanessa Spina:
It would be very aligned with Melanie Avalon, biohacking goddess. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll be like, I'm sorry, I only do video calls in my red light mask.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, yeah, I need to counteract the counter.

Melanie Avalon:
interact the blue screen lighting. Yes, it would be very unbranded for you. I could have the... Okay, wait. I could have the red light mask and then I could put the blue light blocking glasses on top of that. It would be like all the things.

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe it's a new tool. You could do podcasts in it too. I could.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait a minute.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm telling you, it's semi-cute. You'll have to tell me what you think, but I think it looks, I think it looks

Melanie Avalon:
People keep telling me I need to do a video. Yeah, so well now you definitely have me brainstorming about new podcasting methods.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I would love that. I think it would be very on brand to watch you and the podcast with it on because it would show your commitment to biohack.

Melanie Avalon:
whoa, whoa, whoa, I have an idea. Whoa. Because I was just saying, okay, here's my idea. Although if I pitch this idea, I can't actually do it. So should I not pitch it? I'll pitch it because I'm not going to do it. So my idea is, because I was thinking there should be like a new biohacking person who always wears a mask and nobody knows who they look like, like who they are. And I was like, I can't do that because I'm already myself. But I was like, wait, I could have an alter ego. I could like start a new

Vanessa Spina:
I think your body is too recognizable. True. Yeah. And like, you have to hide your hair like if people saw your hair and like your arms and your physique, I think would be too recognizable. So that's out for you.

Melanie Avalon:
To wear a wig? Yeah. Good.

Vanessa Spina:
and sweaters, you're sweating to detox.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh man. I could like, yeah. Okay. Well, you know, we'll table that for something there for sure.

Vanessa Spina:
I can tell you work in you know the entertainment industry and like your acting background in LA because that sounds like like some new reality show or it sounds like the premise of some like LA show or something like that like the mask the mask singer the mask podcaster or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I'm going to think about this. But like I said, now if it happens, people will be like, she was talking about it. Okay. Shall we jump into some fasting questions? Yeah, that sounds great. All right. So to start things off, we have a question from Erin. And Erin says, Hey, ladies, thanks so much for your podcasts and all the information. I've been clean fasting and doing one meal a day since the second week of January. No loss in the scale weight yet, but I feel like I'm losing inches slowly. I'm still working on the mental aspect of fasting, trying not to think about food so much or overcompensating once my window opens. I've noticed appetite correction working when I eat whole foods, but I am still way overeating when I choose fast food or processed foods. I feel like I could just keep eating and eating, which we can comment on that. But she has another question. She says, anyway, my question has to do with tasting that metallic ketone taste in my mouth shortly after my meal. During the daytime when I'm fasting, I can taste that metallic taste and I know I'm getting into ketosis. Typically, my one meal a day is at night within a couple hours of bedtime. Surprisingly, I've noticed that when I'm lying down for bed at night, only a couple of hours after eating, I can taste ketones that sharp metallic like taste in my mouth and it lasts until I fall asleep. This also happens if I choose to open my window early and have lunch and I'll notice the taste shortly after eating lunch. When I wake up in the morning, I do not typically taste the ketones until later in the day, even though I've tasted them the previous night after my meal. It's strange to me because I eat high carb and I'd assume my body is not in ketosis shortly after a meal. I haven't heard you discuss this phenomenon, so I thought I'd reach out. Any thoughts? Thanks, Erin. And when I read this question, I was really excited to get Vanessa's thoughts on this because she's the ketone queen.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I want to know what your thoughts are on it as well. So I don't know specifically if this phenomenon has a name or what it is, but I was recently looking through this really interesting paper, which was about athletes and ketogenic diets. And one of the things that was really interesting is they found that once you get into ketosis, sometimes the ketones will stick around for a while in your bloodstream, especially if, say, you get into ketosis and then you have a mixed meal, which is not keto necessarily, then your body switches to actively handling the glucose, the fat, the protein that you've just consumed, the carbohydrate protein and fat that you've consumed. It switches to dealing with that. And so you kind of have this backup of ketones that can sometimes still be in your blood, and it doesn't get taken up by the tissues right away because you're now sequestering glucose into your liver, into your muscle. You're actively using it for energy to make ATP, and then you're doing the same with protein and fat. Your body's handling all that. And so it stops ketone production, but it doesn't right away, your tissues don't right away take up all the ketones because now you have carbs coming in, if that makes sense. So that's the only explanation that comes to mind for me. And it is interesting because I have had that metallic taste myself sometimes at different times, usually when I'm switching things up or I'm doing longer periods of fasting and I have experienced that myself. But I recently was experiencing it a couple of months ago when I started going back to doing OMAD. So I think I was getting into a deeper state of ketosis, but it would be interesting at the time that you experience that to be measuring your ketones, like measuring your breath ketones, especially if you're tasting it, measuring your breath acetone and see what's happening there. If every time you have that metallic taste, you do a measurement on your breath ketones and see what it's showing or do a measurement of your blood ketones. And then you might be able to infer what's happening there as well. But what are your thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I loved everything that you said, that was sort of my theory, so it was exciting to hear you say that that might be what would be happening because I hadn't researched this, but I was hypothesizing that, is it sort of like a dumping effect? Basically, you have these ketones, because is that what you would say, kind of, that that buildup of ketones, that it's kind of like they just get dumped into the, you know, they come out through the breath? Like the ones that were there in the ketogenic state and then they eat the high carb meal and then they switch over and then these ketones are just floating around? Is that sort of what's happening?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I guess you could call it like a dumping effect. Yeah, like I said, I don't know what the term for it exactly would be but it sounds like you know, you're going into ketosis and then you have to sort of like Backlog back up of ketones and so you're probably because breath ketones are spontaneously degraded from The form of acetoacetate. So when your body makes ketones it makes beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate Which are the two forms beta-hydroxybutyrate is the storage form of it that's circulating in your bloodstream and then it spontaneously Will degrade from acetoacetate as it's sort of being used and taken up by yourself So then once it starts getting processed then like 15 to 20 percent of it Degrades into acetone which then goes out through your lungs. So yeah, I mean, I guess you could call it a dumping effect I don't have a better term for it

Melanie Avalon:
It's interesting. I guess I experience, I don't know. I've never been one to hardcore go by the breath, like visceral experience of it. The only time I hardcore felt the ketones on my breath was honestly when I would experiment with MCT oil and then it would always be actually right after eating, from eating the MCT oil. So I was actually going to suggest what you suggested, which is I would do some measuring. I would highly suggest getting Vanessa's tone device because then you could actually measure your breath and actually literally see, you know, what's happening during this. But yeah, have you heard that from other people that they experienced this?

Vanessa Spina:
Definitely heard it over the years that you know the metallic taste when ketones are present many people you know who've been doing keto for a while if you're in tune with your body I think you you definitely can notice that because it's it's quite a specific taste you know so when you're you're experiencing it I wouldn't say it's the most like pleasant taste so most people probably notice it and if you're familiar with keto you know that it it means that it's it's like the ketones which is it's kind of neat I think because not everyone detects it so I think it's neat if you're like really in tune with your body and you can detect it yourself

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm getting flashbacks. I feel like I was most in tune with it when I first went low carb, and this was before I even started fasting. And then as far as her part about the, I know it wasn't a question, but she was talking about appetite correction and how it works when she eats whole foods, but when she eats fast food or processed foods, she just wants to keep eating and eating and eating. And I just wanted to highlight that for a little bit because I think it really just speaks to this phenomenon where it can be really hard to experience what we call appetite correction. So where you are satiated and full with food and don't feel the need to keep eating and craving, it can be hard to get that if you're still eating processed foods and fast foods. If I think about it too much, I just get upset because I'm studying so much all the time about health and longevity and degenerative disease, and you can just look around and see the state of society. And I just think so much of it goes back to what we're eating. And I wish people's eyes could be open to this. And I think I wonder if like in the future, like way in the future, I don't know if this would ever happen, but kind of like with smoking, where for a long time the smoking industry was, it was just normal to smoke and it wasn't realized how bad of a problem that was for cancer. Now, any promotions you see for cigarettes and smoking, we all know, like we know it's like not a good thing. And I wonder if in the future there will ever come a point where people will feel that way about the processed food industry. I don't know, I guess we'll see.

Vanessa Spina:
I definitely think that's coming. And I love hearing you talk about that, because it's so fascinating. When you talk to people who are experts in processed food addiction, they always talk about how, or not all of them, but like Joan Ifland and Vera Tarmen, about how the cigarette companies, when they saw their time was coming to an end, they started buying all the food, the processed foods. And they use very similar methods in how they target children, and in their messaging and marketing, and even methods that they were doing with cigarettes with children. It's crazy to think back, because now we all know, we all laugh when we see an ad where it's like, smoking is recommended by your doctor, or whatever. We laugh at it now. And I, oh my God, I would love to live in a time when that is a reality, that people look back, and they're like, oh my gosh, doctors actually let people eat this stuff. They didn't tell them to stop eating it. And I know there's a lot of well-intentioned, well-meaning doctors who just don't focus on nutrition, just because that's just not taught, you're not taught to focus on nutrition. But there's more and more who are informed about it, who are being proactive about it, who are even coming out and saying, I gave you bad advice in the past. And I'm starting to see sort of this different view of things where just looking at all the food wars, and the camps, carbs versus fat, it seems like everyone wants to blame either fat or carb as getting people into the metabolic dysregulation that we're in today. And now I just sort of see it as, it's not really fat or carb, it's both. It's like energy toxicity, and it's mostly the processed stuff. And if you just, whole food carb and healthy whole food fats, like the fats that come in like salmon, beef, eggs, et cetera, if you just eat whole foods, it's not about carbs or fats, it's really just about overeating energy. If you just eat whole foods, you're not gonna overeat. And if you don't overeat on whole food carbs and fats, you're not gonna get issues with your fat cells becoming overloaded, and then inflammation, insulin resistance, and all of that. And it's kind of sad in a way that people are so divided with the camps, the mechanistic viewpoint of the carbohydrate insulin model. And then you have people who really just think it's like just eating fats that makes people fat. And it's like, no, it's just overeating. It's not overeating protein, we know that. But if you're overeating either macro or you're overeating both, specifically with processed foods, that's really the problem.

Melanie Avalon:
I could not agree more. I feel so strongly about this. Like the same thing goes with you're talking about low carb versus low fat, but people will say like, oh, it's animal protein or it's the meat, you know, that's the problem. And I'm like, we've been eating animal protein for hundreds and hundreds of years. Million years, at least. What has changed here? It's all this processed food. And it makes me sad. And this is not meant to be a judgment thing at all. You were talking about the role of doctors and how there's not this realization that there is a disservice being done here with the food that we're eating. Like I get really sad when I see all these videos, like there's so many videos of like moms, you know, like making all of this like processed food, cake, snack things for like their kids and stuff. And I'm just like, don't you see that this is feeding poison into these kids and they don't have any agency. Like little kids don't decide what they want to eat. It's whatever they're given. And it makes me sad. And I know like, I mean, I was raised on processed foods and I turned out okay, but I just wish there could be a paradigm shift where people saw these foods as being a primary issue behind all of the health issues that we have today, because they're creating, you know, the metabolic condition that we're in. So we shall see.

Vanessa Spina:
I know it's hard because children have, you know, their mitochondria intact, you know, their hormones are amazing. They can like, quote unquote, get away with eating whatever, but it's like, we're now seeing no, not so much, like there are now there's early onset diabetes conditions that people wouldn't get until they were much older and children are getting them. There's really rising rates of childhood obesity. It's a real problem. It definitely is. And it's happening to people younger and younger. And then all of these chronic non-infectious diseases are happening to people earlier and earlier, younger people are getting disease, non-infectious disease that I think a lot of it is related to metabolic health. So it's a huge issue. And yeah, there's a lot of complications around it. And people like, you know, think that avoiding these foods is restrictive. You know, I mean, like, I think Dr. Vera Tarmen put it so beautifully. She said you wouldn't, if you were talking about alcohol and your kids, you wouldn't, or like cigarettes, you wouldn't think it's restrictive to tell, oh, I don't give my kids alcohol or cigarettes. Everyone's like, right. You know, but when it's like processed foods, everyone's like, oh, you're being so like restrictive. It's like, no, I see these in the same way. They're hyper addictive. They create, you know, responses in the brain that are unnatural with dopamine, units of dopamine that are way too high, that are, you know, that are so high, they create these drug-like effects and addictions. And that's why, like, Lucas never had sugar. And, you know, he's almost three and people are always like, whoa, you know, you don't give him any sugar. And I'm like, no, and he's so calm. He's such a calm child. And that's the number one thing people say about him is like, he's so calm, which you don't hear a lot about toddler. But I know there's a connection. He doesn't eat sugar. He doesn't eat any processed food. And I'm talking about the hyper-process hyperpalisable, like junk food that has been scientifically engineered to get, give you this like a bliss point, this unnatural response to food. Whereas, you know, if you eat a whole food, you know, organically grown apple, or even if it's not organic, whatever, you eat a whole food, even, you know, I know some fruit, people say the fruit's been really manipulated, but most foods in a whole food form, they don't deliver that response of dopamine units. So they can just eat it and have a normal response. They shouldn't have like a cocaine-like response to eating something. So, yeah, I feel the same way. And I really hope that day comes. I do think it is possible. I think people are becoming more and more informed. And we won't seem like extreme, like restrictive, whatever, that some people view it as the way that they probably did in the past with people who were that way about cigarettes or, you know, other things.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was thinking about it actually the other night because I was thinking about how I haven't eaten these processed foods in, you know, years. And I was thinking about if I had never tried them, then I would never know what they tasted like. And I would never, I wouldn't feel like I was, I don't feel like I'm missing out now. But I do remember that taste and how good it tasted. And I was just thinking about how if I never had them, then I wouldn't even have that relationship to that experience. Because I was thinking about like, what would it be like to be a kid raised who had never had any of these things? I mean, I know people will say that you get your taste buds changed. And they do like I literally I don't, I love the food I eat and it tastes amazing. But I still will always have the memories of what that other food tasted like it doesn't really go away, which I find really interesting even like years and years later. But like you said, it is literally engineered to get us to just keep eating it. And then like, make it seem like we're the problem, which yes, you do have the agency of what you're eating. But it's just it's very like sneaky. Everything's kind of set up to, you know, keep us eating. And then there's like a shift of a focus to Oh, it's all about exercise, you need to like exercise more.

Vanessa Spina:
This is why I think I was like not for a long time I questioned exercise and now I'm so glad that I don't and there's you know I'm really excited about the research behind it but a long time I questioned it because of that messaging. Me too!

Melanie Avalon:
me too. I mean, it's really interesting. You can see this play out because you all you have to do is look at the like I'm not me I'm not making this up and this is not a conspiracy like just look at what these really big companies like Nestle and Coca-Cola and things like that they fund health related incentives that don't involve food because they know because they know that what they're creating is not healthy and creating a lot of problems so they try to shift the focus from food being the problem so they'll sponsor like exercise incentives and like races and you know encouraging more steps and it's just kind of like a diversion like don't look here look over there so yes we shall see how things change shall we go on speaking of food shall we answer our next question

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, sounds great. So Andrea or Andrea from Facebook asked, is organic nitrate free, deli style meat safe to eat in large quantities? I know that it still has naturally occurring nitrates from salt or celery powder, which I'm pretty sure is just as bad, but I would love to hear the research on this if there is any. I wanted to do some protein spraying modified fasting and the easiest and also most delicious way to do this would be with protein shakes and deli meat, but not sure if this would totally negate the benefits.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, Andrea, Andrea, I never know how to pronounce that name. Great question. And it's a confusing question as well. So the whole nitrates, nitrates thing is a little bit confusing. Because on the one hand, we hear about all these problems. And then on the other hand, we know that, you know, fruits and vegetables, for example, are really high in nitrates. And there's apparently health benefits from them. So what's happening? What's happening is that there's nitrites and there's nitrates. And they kind of can go back and forth. They can convert into each other. And so vegetables tend to be high, especially like leafy greens can be high in these nitrates, which can convert to nitrites. Either way, these compounds ultimately in the body or wherever they may be can convert to nitrosamine and nitrosamines are the carcinogenic compound that can be created. This happens when nitrites are in the presence of iron and protein, and also has to be a certain temperature as well. So basically, it's very the environment of where the nitrites are located determines whether or not they become a nitrosamine, which is the again, the cancer causing compound. So that's why these ingredients can be a little bit problematic in the context of meat, and especially in the context of processed meat, because it's the perfect situation for that iron and that protein, and that temperature in the stomach to create these cancer causing compounds. So a lot of these different companies will have quote, nitrate, they'll call it like uncured processed meat. And what they do is they use like Andrea was saying, they use nitrates, sorry, they use nitrates from often from celery powder. And I went down the rabbit hole, like I tried to find studies on specifically nitrates from celery powder and things like that and their potential to cause nitrosamines. And I couldn't find any studies on that specifically. I tried, I tried really hard. The takeaway of it all was the mechanisms of action are all still there. So basically, even if it's nitrates from celery powder, if it's in the context of, you know, a meat meal, and you're eating it, and it's in the digestive system, and it's a certain temperature, all the potential is there to create nitrosamines. So I don't know that celery powder versions of nitrates/nitrites lets you bypass the nitrosamine formation. Something to keep in mind, though, is that a lot of the potential of this carcinogenic transformation to happen can be negated by vitamin C and phytochemicals and antioxidants in fruits and vegetables. So it's possible that eating these foods in the context of like a lot of, like I said, fruits and vegetables might reduce that potential of causing nitrosamine formation. I don't know like the celery powder that they're using to create the nitrates added. I don't know if that comes along with its own vitamin C. So maybe there's a void process meats. And we even know, because I know there's all this idea of like red meat causes cancer and all that stuff, the connections they find with cancer causing and meat, it really is. It's red meat for certain reasons, probably unrelated to what we're talking about right now, and processed meats. And I think a lot of the processed meats does go down to this nitrosamine formation that potentially happens after you're eating those foods. So as far as it negating the benefits of PSMF, so that's a whole like tangent because, well, A, so if at all possible, can you eat just real meat on PSMF? I mean, you can. So if that's possible, I would definitely go that route. If for whatever reason you have to do processed meats, I don't think you're going to negate all the effects of everything. I think you're going to know what effects you're looking for and what your starting weight is, what your goals are. But assuming you're doing a PSMF, like a, I don't know what version you're doing of it, but assuming you're doing like a short term, high protein, low calorie approach to your diet in order to lose weight or you know, for metabolic health or whatever it may be. I think the effects from that calorie restriction, I don't think they're gonna be negated from eating processed meat as the choice. I just think you could probably make better choices. And in general, for people, I would avoid processed meats. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it's a tough one. I, I really love processed meats too. So much that I actually tried to make my own ham a year or two ago. And it was a really interesting process. But I was like, I can make this myself at home without using the nitrate salts, you know, that they put in the meats, because I was like, I'm just gonna make it for myself and then I'll eat it within a few days.

Melanie Avalon:
What do you put in it to make it?

Vanessa Spina:
So, you basically like take meat and you cook it, sorry, you take meat and you like grind it up and then you put it in this container that's like a cylinder and the cylinder goes in a pot of water and it boils it and cooks it to a certain point. And during the process, a lot of people put curing salts and that's where the nitrates come in. Like they have these salts that have nitrate in it and it's usually salt, some flavoring, sugar and nitrates and that's the preservative. So if you make it yourself at home, then you don't have to put that in there because you're not keeping it for weeks and weeks and weeks, right? So I tried making it. It didn't taste as good as regular deli meats and it was just such a process that I was like I just didn't want to have anything to do with it at the end. So I totally get it. It's really hard. I tried to find the nitrate free versions like you do, Andrea, and you know, I tried to limit how much I have and not go overboard like I don't have it every day. You know, I have in the past had it two, three times a week lately. I haven't as much. I've been trying to just stick to like you were talking about, like just whole foods meats, but it is so great and so convenient sometimes. So like if I have it once a week, I don't really worry about it too much. And sometimes we, you know, like I make protein bread and put it in sandwiches. It's super easy, but I do feel better when I avoid it because I think it definitely is not the optimal way to consume protein. So I like the idea of doing the protein shakes for proteins for when I find fast day. But like Melanie was saying, you know, you could just maybe barbecue grill some chicken breast or some other lean meat or even some fish or seafood, you know, whatever you like instead of the deli meat. But I understand the convenience of it and the taste of it for sure. I recently had Dr. Anthony Chaffee on my podcast and I really liked our interview. We talked about this a little bit, but we were talking about red meat and cancer and grilling meats. So I was asking him what he thought about grilling meat. And he said that he really believes, you know, we have been cooking meat with fire for at least one point five to two million years and that we're very well adapted to that because it's something that we have co-evolved with. That's been part of our evolution. I don't know, you know, obviously nitrates are probably haven't always been present, but grilling meat, he said he's fully on board with. He said that what he does try to avoid is to not overdo the smoked meats because that's a more concentrated form of the smoke. And I I was relieved when we were talking that I was for a while I was like obsessed with smoked meats. And now most of the smoked meat I have is smoked salmon. But I was so into it. I actually got a smoker and I was smoking brisket and I just loved the flavor of it so much. And then I think we just got busy with the kids. So I stopped doing it. And I was thinking like last week, I'm like, I think I should sell the smoker because I only used it a couple of times and it's huge. Takes up a lot of space in our storage. And I don't think I'm going to do it again after that conversation with him because I don't know. He said if you have it once a month, it's probably fine. You know, the smoked meats. But he said it's probably a little bit more riskier than he doesn't worry at all about grilling because I was asking about grilling because we grill like every day right now. Summertime is great for me because Pete can take over the cooking, at least with the proteins. So it makes cooking a lot easier. Just the whole process way easier just with grilling. But I was really curious about that. So I was glad to hear what he said. And also I was relieved that I haven't been eating as much of the smoked meats as I was because if I had continued on that path, I don't know. But it sounds like when it comes to meat in terms of what the research shows, you know, there are some concerns, like you were saying, with the process forms, there's some concerns with smoked forms, but not so much with grilled meats. So maybe that's one way to still make it tasty and enjoy a proteins very modified fasting day.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah, that was really helpful. And I want to emphasize that, like, I think there are, like, there are worse things out there. And, you know, if a person has a pick between not having any meat at all and having processed meat, I mean, I just think protein is so important and the nutrients we get from meat is so important. So I don't even like answering that question. But I guess I'm saying that I don't think it's overwhelmingly horrible, but I think you could do a lot to mitigate it. And, you know, having the processed meat in the context of a lot of leafy greens and veggies can potentially help with that potential nitrosamine formation. And I hear what you're saying, Vanessa, about, you know, the ease of it. And for me with the processed meats, why I didn't like eating them was they tasted so good. I found them more addicting than like, like with normal meat, I eat it and it feels good and satiating. But with processed meat, it sometimes makes me want to keep eating more. And then the sodium load was always just like so much. Like it would make me feel like bloated. And yeah, just can't win, but you

Vanessa Spina:
Can you supplement with salt at all? I'm curious, like, with algae?

Melanie Avalon:
Just the salt? No, I don't. I eat so, I used to a little bit if I, before I ate a lot of scallops, which I think they're high in natural sodium. In the past I would if I felt like I needed it intuitively. I think I get a lot of sodium from like the seafood that I eat, not like added salt, but just the scallops seem to be high in sodium. Yeah, do salt like your food when you eat it or no? I also, just really quick, since I eat high carb, I don't feel, I feel the need more for salt when I do like low carb. Yeah, that's definitely when you need it. Yeah, no, I don't. Like I said, I have, so I have like salts. I have like Himalayan salt. I have some other like fancy salt brands that, cause fancy salt brands will reach out to me and like send me their salt. So every now and then I have like an intuitive feeling like I need some salt. And then I add like a tiny bit to my food, but otherwise no. But I did go through a period where I was eating these turkey slices that were processed and I just thought it was so interesting how I could literally, I could like feel my aldosterone and I could feel like my kidneys or my body adjusting to sodium levels. And it's like your body sets like a new, I talked to Rob Wolf about this when I had him on the show. I was like, I feel like your body sets like a salt, like a sodium like level that it feels intuitively that it's at and then it kind of like protects that level. This is all just like my experience in my body. But what I mean by that is if I don't eat any sodium, don't have any sodium at it, I don't feel like I'm retaining water. I don't feel like I'm overexcreting water. I don't crave salt. Then if I start eating some saltier foods, it's like my body hits a new like level and then that becomes the norm of intake. And then I need to like have sodium to like reach that level. And so for me, I just feel better not adding any and only adding a little bit if I am craving it. I don't know if you've had that experience.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm obsessed with salt and I think it's because I do low carb, I salt a lot. I love the taste of salt and I can't have a meal without adding salt to it. My body needs it so much. And I do a lot of elements throughout the day, like three, four, sometimes more a day. That's a bunch of five or six sometimes, but it's because I really don't eat that much carbohydrate in the day, like under 50 grams. There's a really interesting, did you talk about nitric oxide?

Melanie Avalon:
not in that answer. I did have information about it, but I did not. Would you like to?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, there's a really interesting study, I don't have the full article, but it's talking about how dietary nitrates, nitrite, and arginine can serve as sources of production of nitric oxide, which is good for us. And the conversion happens through UV exposure on the skin, which is really interesting. So, I mean, having nitric oxide is really good for us, and it's part of, I think, when probably specifically red light, because red light therapy also improves levels of nitric oxide. So I wonder if there's a connection there, because you mentioned vitamin C and antioxidants and phytonutrients. I want to look into this more, maybe I'll report back on it.

Melanie Avalon:
And the reason... No, I'm so glad you brought it up. The reason I didn't bring it up was, yeah, it's like a whole other complicated layer. But I think it involves why it's so confusing and that nitrites and nitrates from vegetables and produce seem to have health benefits and are correlated to health benefits. And yet they're also the cause of all of these potential problems. And I think it's super context dependent as far as which pathway those... they go down and whether or not they are beneficial and help create nitric oxide or if they become these harmful nitrosamines. So it's like they can go either way. I didn't know that about the red light on the skin though. That's fascinating.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I want to learn more about it. I'm going to get this article and read more and I can report back in the future.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this was so wonderful. So for listeners, these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode383. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions by emailing questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I so enjoyed this episode again. I really appreciate the wonderful questions and I can't wait to record again soon. Likewise, I will talk to you next week. Sounds great, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.


Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 11

Episode 382: Exercise, Resistance Training, Zone 2 Training, EPOC, Autophagy, Mitophagy, CBD Gummies, Algae, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 382 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Listener Q&A: Mari - What type of exercise is good to help increase autophagy?

Does Exercise Regulate Autophagy in Humans? A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Exercise and Training Regulation of Autophagy Markers in Human and Rat Skeletal Muscle

Physical Exercise and Selective Autophagy: Benefit and Risk on Cardiovascular Health

Listener Q&A: Sandra - Can you tell me if you think that taking a CBD gummy will break my fast?

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Rebecca - I am wondering if taking spirulina tablets in the morning (when it’s recommended) would break the fast?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 382 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 382 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your life, Vanessa? And I just had...

Vanessa Spina:
A beautiful summer day, I took Luca and Damien this morning, my two boys, and one is two and one is six months, to a baby French jazz concert with my friend, her babies. And they do these concerts all the time in Prague for babies. And it's so much fun because all the parents come, bring their little kids, and then we put out blankets and they sit there and they do classical performances. The last one we went to was opera and ballet, which was beautiful. And they had a harp, a harpist twice. And today it was French jazz, which I'm not a big fan of jazz, but this was like a French jazz. And I'm being part French. I loved it. It was so beautiful. The kids had so much fun. And then I took them to my favorite cafe after and I had an almond milk cappuccino and Luca had a fresh coconut, like young coconut, and they gave him the coconut juice and like cut up the coconut meat. And we just had the best day. So much fun. And then I came home and I started prepping for our recording tonight. So I had a wonderful

Melanie Avalon:
day. How about you? Wow. So the content of these concerts, how do they make it baby specific?

Vanessa Spina:
So it's usually in a big music hall. Like today we were in an old, beautiful, old, like Renaissance tower. So beautiful old room with like all the original wood and murals and everything. And the way they make it baby friendly is they make it 45 minutes and everyone puts blankets down. So you're sitting on the floor so the kids can move around. They can like have snacks and they can interact today, like five or so of the kids were dancing in front. So that's how it's customized to them because it's hard for kids to sit through stuff for a long time. So 45 minutes, I think just kind of works. I think actually half an hour would be optimal. Like around half an hour, Luca was like, I think he was like, had enough. He's he powered through the last few songs, but I think 45 minutes makes it more enjoyable for the parents. So it's not too short, but yeah, it's, it's great. Cause the kids are just like getting exposed to all this culture and parents get to, you know, actually get to a concert, which is hard to do is. So I really appreciate when you get to do that.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I'm so jealous those kids are being raised. Right. I love, I love going to shows and concerts. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I don't know how much of that kind of stuff is around for kids back home, but I know it's one of the things we really love about being here is there's just so much stuff for kids and so much cultural stuff. So we're trying to take as much, take full advantage while we're here.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's true because, well, I'm not immersed in the child activity sphere, and you haven't been here since having kids. Wait, right? Because you were, did you have Luca and Prague? Yes. Yeah, there might be this stuff going around.

Vanessa Spina:
I just hear from like friends and stuff. There probably is if you live in a city and you live in a city that has a lot of cultural stuff going on, I'm not sure outside the city how much stuff there is. But yeah, I think it's one of the perks definitely in being in Europe. There's just a lot of cultural stuff like that for kids all the time, like constantly. Like every day there's like 20 or 30 of these things happening. There's a lot, especially here. So it's a very artsy city. It's like how Paris used to be and kind of reminds me. I like to think of it as a new Paris because there's just a lot happening here. But yeah, that was.

Melanie Avalon:
my day. How was your day? It was good. I think I would like living there. Yeah. How big is the actual city city?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, the country itself is not huge, like it's about the size of Switzerland. There's about 10 million people here. So it's small population. Like if you consider it part of greater Europe, greater like Europe being like having a lot more people, but the countries themselves are like, are pretty small compared to, I don't know, is that similar to like, similar to Canada, but states in the US are huge. I know like 300 million in California. So there's like a lot more, but it's pretty small. It's kind of like Vancouver in Canada, where I used to live, where it's like very walkable. I'm trying to think of a US city that I could compare it to. Probably like a small city in California, like Carmel or like, you know, something walk, like you can, you don't really need a car. You can walk everywhere. Yeah, just like a small, I mean, LA is so big and sprawling. It's hard to compare it to anything back home, but yeah, it's pretty small. It's a nice size. It's big enough that there's lots to do, but it's small enough that you don't really need a car and you can get around with like the trams. So maybe like San Francisco.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yeah, yeah. So we're recording this a little bit in advance. So it is summer, I had a friend come in town for the holiday weekend. This is now in the past, but I went out two nights in a row. So I'm proud of myself. And now I'm like done. I'm like good for the near future.

Vanessa Spina:
a photo of you on your Instagram. You had straight hair and looked so pretty.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that was yeah, that was a few weeks ago. Oh, thank you. That was very spontaneous. I loved it.

Vanessa Spina:
is so cute. I don't see it blonde straight. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
That was, I had gone the day before to get something done to it and they straightened it and I was dressing up like Taylor Swift and my sister was like, just wear it straight. It like literally never occurred to me to wear it straight. And I saw your Taylor Swift.

Vanessa Spina:
it's it's like a body suit yes that's what you're making with the secret you made that mm-hmm it's amazing

Melanie Avalon:
Although, I was so embarrassed, so embarrassed because I'm like a very, I don't know, I like classiness and long story short, that night, this was a while ago now, but we were going to a Taylor Swift dance party, which was so fun. And we went to kind of like a classy place before to get drinks. And they did not want me to come in wearing that and I was mortified. I was mortified.

Vanessa Spina:
Or they're like, where's your pants? But that's the trend now is like no pants. Is that a trend now?

Melanie Avalon:
But it's so clearly a costume. I was so apologetic. I was like, I am so sorry. This is a costume. We're going to a dance party after, a themed party after. And then of course our waiter was all into it. He was like, is Taylor Swift in town? We're like, no. Yeah, they told me I needed to have pants on.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, the all the fashion bloggers that I follow on Instagram for like the last year, they've been like, posting all this like no pants stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, it's not saturated culture quite enough yet, because it's interesting. I think I find it really interesting, though, not to get on too much of a tangent, but what will embarrass certain people and not others, you know? Because that literally, you know, that just that feeling of pure embarrassment, it was just so full in my body. And my friends and sister were like, it's no big deal, like, stop freaking out. And I was like, I don't want people to think I'm not a classy person. But yes, it's all good culture. Would you be embarrassed in that situation?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know maybe maybe not I don't embarrass that easily but I know what you mean like the feeling of like that you're just not appropriately attired it would be maybe not embarrassment but like for me more just like regret or I don't know if I would be embarrassed I would just be like oh I guess I didn't plan this out or something

Melanie Avalon:
Well, what's funny is to my sister, I was like, I told you so because I literally texted her before and I was like, do you think it's going to be a problem me wearing this? And she's like, it's fine. But what I know about my sister is she's the type of person where you can't, she just says, and she knows this, we talked about this, like she'll just say things like very confidently that she's not certain about. So you can't like listen to her confident answers to things. I just disregard them.

Vanessa Spina:
Wait, what did they say to you exactly?

Melanie Avalon:
I think that's another thing. It was a place that's very, very hard to get into. But I know the the Psalm, like the head Psalm there. So he had his reservation. And they just were like, not seating us, and then not seating us. And then the manager like, walked over to me and I was like, I know what this is about. He was like, like, ma 'am, we just about dress code. Yeah, something about that. They're like, can you just like, put something on. So I like made a skirt out of my sister's sweater. Oh, yeah, I like made a new outfit. Actually, it was kind of cute. It was fine. Then you were able to stay. Yeah. But then I like couldn't get over the embarrassment. I like couldn't let it go. Obviously, it's like a month later and I'm talking about it still. It's fine. But then we went to the dance party, the Taylor Swift dance party and I felt so accepted and it was like all good. Oh, that sounds awesome. So I highly recommend friends. This is like a thing. It's called the Taylor party and they go all over to different cities. So you can follow them on Instagram and see if they're coming to a city near you. I highly recommend it. The DJ was so into it. It was amazing. That's really fun. The Taylor party. The Taylor party. No, see if they come to Europe. Oh, yeah, I wonder. She's in Europe right now. Does she come to Prague?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think so, but a couple of my girlfriends, well, three of my girlfriends here are going. One is going, I think in Poland, one is going to it in London. And she is trying to get another one of our friends to go. Initially they asked me as well, but I just don't feel ready with like, with Demi being so young to leave them. So I'm not sure if they're doing, but I think she's gonna, if she might go to two. So yeah, three of them are going, but I don't know why she's not coming here.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it seems like it would be a nice city. Wait, I can't find it. The Taylor Dance?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it's called the Taylor party. Oh, sorry, Taylor party. Yeah, it's too bad. She's not coming here because I'm sure people would. I found it. You found it. That's fun. My nieces were just here and they went to see Olivia Rodrigo and they went to Amsterdam. No, sorry, Denmark. They flew to Denmark to see her and I was like, so are you are you girls into Taylor Swift? And they're like, no, they're like, they were telling me, Olivia Rodrigo is more for like teens and Taylor Swift is like not there.

Melanie Avalon:
demo. Oh, interesting. She's more for wall.

Vanessa Spina:
older. Yeah. And I mean, most of my friends here that are going to her are in their 30s.

Melanie Avalon:
That's yeah, okay. That's interesting. I just assume she was everyone's Batiba. I mean she yeah, she is but I guess maybe she's more weighted towards that demographic.

Vanessa Spina:
They were timing Olivia Rodrigo's like the Taylor Swift for teens.

Melanie Avalon:
I have, yeah, no comment. That's interesting. I'm currently debating. I just saw there's like a Taylor Swift, like, laser concert on Saturday, which I'm highly alert by. However, oh my goodness, Vanessa, I have a wedding that starts at 1.30 p.m. And I don't know how that's gonna happen. What do you mean? I don't know how I can be ready at a wedding an hour away at 1.30 p.m. I just...

Vanessa Spina:
I have to get up really early.

Melanie Avalon:
And wake up earlier. I mean, I'm going to have to I don't know I just yeah, I'm literally been stressing about this for like a month So is it like a close friend or family member? Mm-hmm. If it wasn't a family member, I would not go so I'm literally my therapist. My therapist was literally like what if you just go to the reception? And I was like, thank you for suggesting that therapist. However, there are family photos. So I don't think I Can get away with that? So yeah, if I get excommunicated from my family, that's what happened. I like didn't go to the wedding So what time was your wedding?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it was at three or four. It's coming up, our anniversary on July 30th. I always get it wrong and Pete teases me because I always think it's like the 31st or something. But the hotel where we had our reception just opened a brand new restaurant and they relaunched it like they, it's called Monastique because it's an old, the hotel is like a luxury hotel that used to be a monastery. So I'm like, great, we have anniversary plans because we can go have dinner there. We had our wedding reception, but I'm excited. And we have Luca's birthday coming up in two weeks now. And I am so excited for it. I'm doing all the goodie bags, like with all the little things for kids in it, and a beautiful new place just open in the city. It's kind of like Las Vegas inside without the casinos. It's like a club atmosphere on all the floors. They have all these bars and they just have arcades and like mini putt and all this stuff, but it's very luxurious inside. They opened this incredible amusement park for kids. So we took, we went with Luca and the nieces and to go check it out because I was thinking about having his birthday party there. We're definitely going to have it there. And I think the kids are going to have so much fun. So I'm having fun planning that. And yeah, lots of things coming up this month.

Melanie Avalon:
So many things. Prague is the place to be, apparently. Well, happy, happy early anniversary and birthday.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I hope you make it to the wedding.

Melanie Avalon:
We shall see, we shall see. I'm not even gonna think about it. Okay, shall we jump into some fasting?

Vanessa Spina:
related things. I'm so excited for these questions.

Melanie Avalon:
So to start things off, we have a question from Mari, and I don't remember where we got this question. I pulled it from our backlog of questions, but it is, what type of exercise is good to help increase autophagy?

Vanessa Spina:
I love this question, and I've recently become so excited about exercise and autophagy. I had an incredible guest on the podcast recently, Dr. Tommy Wood, and this is his specialty, and he has been studying autophagy and exercise. He also does a lot of research on mental performance, cognition, and exercise, but he has this one quote, basically, from that podcast episode where he said that you can get as much autophagy from 30 minutes of resistance training as a three-day fast, and I had, you know, obviously I know that you get autophagy from exercise, especially mitophagy, because you're doing resistance training, so that's your mitochondrial autophagy, and I never heard it quantified in those terms before, so specifically. I have another researcher that's one of his colleagues who's coming on the podcast actually next week, and I've been so excited to talk to her more about that, because she's been working on a study to quantify it even more and put it even more into terms that are applicable, such as, you know, the equating, the three days, the 72 hours of fasting to 30 minutes of resistance training. So, there's a lot of research showing that lots of different forms, obviously lots of different forms of exercise generate autophagy, however, there was a really interesting meta-analysis that looked at all the different studies that have been done on exercise and autophagy, and what they concluded is that although you do get some autophagy from endurance exercise and different forms of exercise, it's really resistance training that you get the most autophagy. So, in that meta-analysis, they concluded that long-term resistance training, not short-term, but long-term resistance training is probably the best exercise for increasing autophagy in humans, and the beneficial effects of other exercise types, such as endurance, might be via mechanisms other than activating autophagy, so you can get a lot of benefits from other forms of exercise, but really, it's the long-term resistance training that was found to be the best for increasing autophagy in humans, so I think this kind of stuff is pretty exciting. The other thing that Dr. Tommy Wood also mentioned is that you can get the same amount of autophagy from a three-day fast as, I think he said, an hour or two hours of zone two training, but that was not on my podcast, so I can't remember exactly, so I know you are getting some from endurance exercise as well, but it's really the long-term resistance training that the research has shown to be best for autophagy, and I find this stuff really exciting because, obviously, doing 30 minutes of resistance training is a lot easier than a three-day fast for me anyway, so I'm really excited about this research, and I'm super excited to be interviewing this other researcher that's also on his team next week to learn more about those specifics, and I'm definitely going to report back on what she says because she's got some research that's fresh out of the kitchen.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so first of all, that's amazing timing with interviewing chem. And okay, was the study that you read at the end, was it a meta analysis from 2023, do you have the title of it? Was it does exercise regulate autophagy in humans, a systemic review and meta analysis?

Vanessa Spina:
So this was published March 2023. Does exercise regulate autophagy in humans, a systematic review and meta-analysis?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. Yeah, that's the same one I read. Okay, it was so interesting hearing you say that about what he found about the 30 minutes because I... So I went... Okay, this was such an interesting experience for me, like researching it, because people say all the time, exercise increases autophagy. So I thought it was going to be like really easy that there would be all these studies on exercise increasing autophagy. And that was not what I found. It was actually an experience because normally if I'm looking up a topic in PubMed and Google Scholar and all the things, I'll find studies from like 2017, 2016. And I'll feel like they're... Like that I can use them and that there will be more studies that I can continue to use. I don't normally feel like... I don't normally super feel concerned that when I'm reading is going to be quickly dated and incorrect. But the original studies I was pulling up were like 2017, 2018. And I just had this feeling. I was like, I don't know that anybody knows what's going on here because what I was reading was very conflicting. So there was studies showing that it increased autophagy, but then there was a lot saying that it decreased. And then a lot of them were in animal studies. And I was like, I just need to look at honestly studies from 2023 and beyond because I don't think anybody had any idea what was going on. And so I did find that same review and meta-analysis that you read, which I thought was really enlightening and helpful. I don't think it was in this one. I think it was in a similar one. I will put links to all of the studies that I found in the show notes. But one of them was talking about basically how the genetic expression of autophagy related genes in rodents is different than humans. So basically, all of these studies in rodents might not be applicable to humans, like at all. Like they might be applicable a little bit, but you definitely can't make a direct correlation. And it was saying that that could be a reason that there seems to be a lot of contradictory findings in animals versus humans. So that the study that Vanessa brought up, I thought was the best overview of everything to date. And it was 2023. And I looked at 26 studies. Their takeaways, they went through the studies that have been conducted. 26 studies met their criteria. And what they decided on was a few things. Vanessa mentioned the main takeaway that long-term resistance training is probably the best way to increase autophagy. Interestingly, it seems that short-term resistance exercise potentially reduces autophagy, which is interesting because that 30 minutes of exercise that you were talking about, was that resistance or endurance? Do you know? For which one? What you were talking about that he was talking about with the 30 minutes of exercise? 30 minutes of resistance training. Oh, of resistance.

Vanessa Spina:
Toffee Woods' research is all in humans, and his colleague who I'm interviewing next week is also all in humans, and he discounts basically all the rhoda research. He says that a lot of the autophagy research that's been done that promotes fasting is actually because of unapplicable research on animals. So everything he focuses on is just in humans. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
I wonder if, because one of the studies was saying that looking at these different markers of autophagy, I'm trying to remember which one it was specifically, I think it was like LC3B2? Yeah, LC3B2, they were saying that it's possible that while we measure that for autophagy findings that it might not actually reflect autophagy flux in the body in general. So I wonder if, I'd be really curious if, I mean if you ask him, these studies that find reduced autophagy and short bouts of resistance exercise, what he thinks is going on there, like is it actually reduced autophagy or is it just like misleading markers but there's not actually reduced autophagy?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because it seems like there's a topology happening in the peripheral blood and there's also a topology happening in the muscle. So I think that's maybe the distinction, because what they're finding is it's attenuating in one and not the other. But I'll ask Christy when I have her on next week.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, her. Okay. Yes. I'll be super, super excited. I want to ask her all the questions too, because basically the takeaways from this study was to recap. For resistance training, they found that short-term resistance training reduces autophagy. Again, I don't know if that's actually happening because that's contrary to what was his name, the actual researcher that you interviewed? Dr. Tommy Wood. Wood. Okay. Dr. Tommy Wood. I don't know why I keep thinking Dr. Lehman. Dr. Wood. Yeah. I'll be really curious what he says. It sounds like they both agree about the longer-term resistance exercise increasing autophagy. And then as far as actual endurance exercise, so this was again just this meta-analysis, but they concluded that moderate and vigorous intensity endurance exercise didn't show any effects on autophagy, which again is interesting because like I said, I was looking at earlier studies that did find that. So it was really confusing reading all of it, but the one takeaway that seemed to be settled on a little bit for now was the long-term resistance training, which honestly is to everybody's benefit because I think if I wouldn't say if there's one type of exercise to focus on, but we just know how important it is supporting muscle mass and muscle training and resistance exercise. So it sounds like you really can't go wrong by implementing that into your life on a consistent basis. And what I would say for all of this, because I know her question was about what type of exercise increases autophagy, I wouldn't, me personally, I would not specifically do exercise for that sole purpose because you're going to get the synergistic health benefits of doing exercise in general. And it's like you don't need to really know. You don't need to like focus. I don't think, you need to focus on, I'm going to do this type of exercise for this amount of time to create x amount of autophagy. Like just integrate exercise into your life, do the fasting, do the things and let autophagy do its thing the way it does it. That's my thoughts. Do you have any other thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would go as far as to say if you could just pick one thing, it would be resistance training. That's what I prioritize now. Although I do a lot of other activity during the week, I used to always prioritize cardio for years. Now, if I can only get one thing done, I'm much happier if I get my resistance training. And that's because it has so many carry over effects you have, like I've done comparisons with post exercise measurements of my metabolic rate and seen that I get sometimes even more post exercise it's called epoch post exercise oxygen consumption measurement from resistance training, then from cardio, I always assumed you would get more like calorie burning basically from cardio. I get more from resistance training because you have the burn from the energy that you're expanding during the workout. But then you also have it afterwards in the repair and recovery of the muscle tissue and muscle protein synthesis. You also get extra benefits from having a higher metabolic rate from having active metabolically active tissue in your body, and converting more of your body into lean tissue that is metabolically active. And then you get all that autophagy. So to me, it's like, if there's anything that you're going to do if you can only choose one thing. For me, it's resistance training. And I just do it at home. I have weights. And I work out at home. I've worked with a trainer, I definitely recommend people work with a trainer if they're starting out at the beginning to make sure that you have the right positioning. And you don't hurt yourself because injuring yourself is definitely the opposite of what you want to achieve with it. And it's not that hard to do. So yeah, I would definitely say that that's the number one exercise for autophagy number one exercise for overall health, health span, longevity as well, because it makes you more durable. It boosts your bone density as well. I mean, there's so many benefits to it. I did it a lot when I was in university. And then for some reason, I just went, you know, full on with the cardio for years. And I wish I had just carried through with it. And done both, you know, I don't know why I had to just like, why kind of just fell off. But yeah, it's, it's such a priority for me, you know, when it comes to day to day stuff. And it's really exciting. Also seeing the research that's coming out. Another thing that I was talking about with Dr. Tommy would was the connection between muscle mass and cognition. What's really interesting is, I believe this as well, that the more lean mass you have in your body, the more brain benefits that you get. And it turns out it doesn't, it's not about how much lean mass you have, it's about how much of it you activate. So in all the research that they've done, if someone has a lot more lean mass than someone else, it doesn't make a difference. It's who is actually activating that muscle. And it's the activation of the muscle that actually improves brain health. So there's like amazing research coming out on cognition, obviously dementia prevention. And, you know, preventing a lot of neurodegenerative conditions, potentially with having more muscle mass. So I'm glad that there's such a spotlight right now on protein resistance training. And, you know, the research is really coming out strongly behind it.

Melanie Avalon:
That is so interesting. As far as the activating the muscle, does it also relate to the concept of, quote, good or bad muscle? And what I mean by that is, I recently listened to Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Huberman. Did you listen to that episode? No, I haven't. She was talking about, like, good and bad muscle. And basically, bad muscle would be muscle that's actually full of fat, kind of like a well marbled steak, but not the athlete's paradox. So not like muscle that's fueling on fat, but rather muscle that has fatty deposits in it that is not fueling on it. I wonder if that also plays a role in its effects.

Vanessa Spina:
That definitely could be part of it, because yeah, like you said, if you're over if you are metabolically unfit, and your fat cells are over stuffed and inflamed, your body is going to start depositing fat in places it shouldn't, which is where you get that topic, topic fat around your organs and in, you know, sort of central part of the body. And then you also get fatty deposits in your muscle, which is not, as you said, the same as when you're an athlete. And you have high turnover of the fatty acids stored in your muscle. And that high turnover makes makes it great for your body to deposit fat there, because it knows you're going to burn it off. So if it's turning over at a rapid rate, then you want that if it's just sitting there, then that's because your body's inflamed, your fat cells are over full, there's insulin resistance. And that's leading to low grade inflammation, which will generate a cascade of, you know, metabolic issues. So yeah, it's, I would say the muscle tissue is probably the same. But your point, yeah, if you are contracting the muscle, and actively using it, then you're getting that turnover of those fat deposits. So then it becomes a great thing. So

Melanie Avalon:
interesting and you said you were measuring your post-exercise oxygen consumption. Where are you doing that? Are you going in somewhere? I would say doing it.

Vanessa Spina:
doing it like three years ago and was I using some kind of app I think I didn't go into a lab or anything but I have to look it up but I remember that I was amazed that my calorie burn from and my post-exercise oxygen consumption was so much higher from the resistance training and that's when I was like okay why am I spending so much time doing cardio when I actually enjoy resistance training way more than doing cardio I still do cardio metabolic activity I do a lot of walking and a lot of incline walking just being outside and walking around the city like today I walk for four hours around the city and it's a very hilly city so you know I get my cardio in but you know the priority really is the resistance training and I enjoy it so much more than although I enjoy walking too but as a workout like if you have to run on the treadmill or do resistance training resistance training is so much more fun for me anyway

Melanie Avalon:
I love the paradigm shift I've had in my life around exercise and movement because I did not enjoy those days of just going to the gym and getting on the treadmill and just going there and like doing the thing and then like being hungry and like going home and eating food. Like it was just, I don't know, it was not, it was, and I know some people love the gym and that's their culture and that's what makes them happy and like keep on keeping on. But for me, I'd rather just integrate movement into my daily life, like lift heavy things all the time and just be a functional movement person. Are you still there?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm still doing the EMS, electromagnetic stimulation, here they call EMS.

Melanie Avalon:
M sculpt. That's what we call it here. Okay. I was like, what do we call it here? Even though that's the brand name. Yes. I haven't done. The last time I was doing sessions was before the biohacking conference. I see so much benefit from that. It's crazy. It builds so much muscle.

Vanessa Spina:
I really want to try it. I think I told you before there's a place not far from my house. I just have to. I think once day means a little bit more independent for me, I'm going to make that a priority to try. I think it could level up my fitness routine. But my sister-in-law, which is here visiting, and she's like, your arms are jacked. What is happening? And I was like, it's the mom arms because I'm just lifting a 33-pound weight and a 20-pound weight all day long, up and down. And the two-year-old, my beautiful Luca, he's in a big mommy phase right now. He wants me to pick him up every minute of the day. It feels like it's been like that for the last three years. And sometimes I'm like, I can't right now, Luca. And then I think about when he's 25, he's not going to ask me anymore. So I'm like, okay. Are you still going to sit in my lap when you're 25? No, probably not. So.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll take it now. So we've launched our Mind Blown podcast, my third podcast, which everybody check out and subscribe to on Apple Podcasts. But we were prepping, we're about to record an episode coming up about things that vanished. So basically things that went away that nobody really realized. And now you're just like, oh, they're gone. Like we don't, like nobody has ringtones anymore. Like nobody, like when did that stop? So I've been Googling like things that vanished. I've been trying to find lists. And one thing that somebody said was it's not really applicable to that list, but they said like one day your parents picked you up and that was the last time they ever picked you up. Like, oh, yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I bet. Also, let me pick him up once or twice. When he's older, we'll see. Unless he's huge, because he's like, bulking, he looks like the Hulk lately. From eating all the protein that he eats. And from being active. But I was talking to a guest recently about like how early is too early to get the kids in resistance training. Now, like do it as whenever he's like the earlier, the better. I can't, I wish I could remember.

Melanie Avalon:
it was. Gabrielle answered that on the Huberman podcast. That was her answer, like, as early as they can.

Vanessa Spina:
I texted her when I saw the episode of my feed, and I was like, are you kidding me, Huberman? Like, you are killing it. But I haven't listened to it yet. I just have so many episodes. Like, I'm starting to get there's probably going to be a name for it at some some point, but some kind of like, podcast anxiety from like all the amazing podcasts that I see in my feed every day, that I'm like, I put them in my playlist, like, play next. And I'm like, listen to that, listen to that. And I'm like, and I never get to. There's just so many. I'm still, if you can believe it, I'm still listening to the Peter Atea, Luke van Loon episode. That's a during the kids nap yesterday, because it's so good. I just keep listening over and over again. And I need to like, fully, I need to fully absorb all of it. So I just keep listening to it over and over again.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just so good. Important question. What speed do you listen on? I usually listen to.

Vanessa Spina:
everything but when an episode's really good I have to go to 1.5 so I'm listening to that one on 1.5 because sometimes when I notice that I keep going back like I keep rewinding 30 seconds I'm like hey I'm going too fast on this one

Melanie Avalon:
I thought I was going to be helpful, but it wasn't helpful. I was going to say I had the major epiphany because I never liked listening to podcasts fast because it kind of like gives me a little bit of anxiety when they're like talking so fast. Especially because I listen, I listen to my podcast at night when I'm like winding down. And so if they're like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, then I'm like, ah, I realized that on Spotify, if you listen at 1.1, it sounds the same, but you like slap, you like slice off a little bit of time. I was like, this is a game changer for me or for Apple Podcasts 1.25.

Vanessa Spina:
listening to it fast because it makes me feel like I'm a supercomputer or something. It's like absorbing all the information, rapid fire. But yeah, sometimes it gets too dense and I have to slow it down a little. Maybe I should listen to it on 1.1 and then I'll just get it out of my system in one

Melanie Avalon:
1.1 is like, it's like magic because you literally, it literally sounds like real life, but you know that you're 10% faster. Maybe. Is that how the math would work? I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
It's just so funny though, because you get used to it. So I always listen, if I ever listened back to one of my episodes, which I do sometimes just for like timestamps or things, I always listen to it on two. And then I go back to like normal speed. And it's like, I'm talking like this.

Melanie Avalon:
No, no, it's like mind blowing because I so for audible books during the day, I do I listen to them super fast like 2.2.5, like really 2.7. Sometimes I push 2.8. What's crazy is like, I'll listen on normal and I will keep listening. I'm like, this is not this is not real. And you keep listening and it doesn't adjust though. Like my brain doesn't adjust back. Like it still sounds like it's crazy. Do it at one. I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
I always I sound like I was just so

Melanie Avalon:
slow and I... That was a perfect reenactment that you did a second ago. That's like exactly what it sounds like. I don't know. It's like it's weird. Can't trust reality. No. I'm actually wait last comment on that then I swear I'm done. I'm actually currently trying to decide which editor to use ongoing for my third podcast and one of them has a faster editing style like they're making it go a little bit faster and the other one has a slower editing style. And I was like, hmm, like I had this whole conversation in my head. I was like, well, if it's faster to begin with, maybe people will click in more because they're, you know, they feel like it's moving. But then I'm like, but the people who speed ahead, then it's going to be too fast. So maybe we got to accommodate the people that are, you know, speeding it up.

Vanessa Spina:
want to do a poll now and ask people what speed they listen to podcasts in general because I would love to know. Like I just have to get through so many that I have to listen to them that fast. I also enjoy it but it's kind of like both but I don't know if I if I had all the time in the world.

Melanie Avalon:
Like, would you listen at the normal rate? I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
one. I don't know. I'm just so used to it now. And you can get so much more information that way. I'm so curious now. We should do a poll in your group. Yes, I'm going to write that down. I really want to talk about it on a future episode. Share the results and talk about it.

Melanie Avalon:
it. Oh, my goodness. Awesome. Okay. So yay. Resistance training is the takeaway from that. Shall we answer another question? Yes. So now we have a question from Sandra. I think she emailed this. She said, Hi, Melanie. Can you tell me if you think that taking a CBD gummy will break my fast? My eating window is usually around four hours between 4 to 8 pm. I need the gummies for sleep, but I don't want to take them until bedtime around 11 pm, but I definitely don't want to break my fast. What are your thoughts about this?

Vanessa Spina:
I almost don't want to answer this one. So I was thinking about it this week when I saw the question, because I make gummies for our family. They don't have CBD in them, and I'm just laughing because I have little kids, so of course I'm not putting CBD in there. But I make gummies for them as like health food gummies, like I put nutrients in them. They're kind of like vitamin gummies, and they're so much fun to make, and I make them little teddy bears. But in making them, I know you put gelatin in there, which is protein. It's basically like, I think it mostly has probably glycine and proline, and maybe hydroxyproline, similar to collagen. So those are amino acids, and so anything that is an amino acid, I'm not sure to what degree it would trigger mTOR, but it definitely would not put you in a state to stimulate autophagy. But I don't think that you need to worry about that. If you need them for sleep, you know, as we were just talking about in this episode, you could do 30 minutes of resistance training, and you could get as much autophagy as a three day fast. So if you're worried about that interfering with your autophagy, don't. You have autophages ongoing and occurring all throughout the day, just at different degrees. Sometimes it's way turned up, like when you do 30 minutes of resistance training or long term resistance training, and sometimes it's turned down, like right after a meal. So my answer is yes, it does break a fast, but I wouldn't be concerned about missing out on autophagy for that reason, especially if you need them for sleep. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so similar thoughts. Well, I know she wasn't asking about autophagy specifically, but that would be something that goes with breaking the fast. A few different thoughts. One is if you want to be, quote, safest, you could look into my favorite brand of CBD, which is Fields. And the reason I love them is they only use MCT oil as the carrier. No additives, really pure and potent and tested. And I just, I love them. So I take that every night. I would definitely purchase in general for listeners, look into Fields CBD. And I know we have a coupon code for them. I think if you go to fields.com/if podcasts and use the code if podcast, there should be a pretty good discount. That said, if you're still taking after your eating window and I'm not, and I don't want to say this and to just write cart launch, like free tickets, like it's totally fine to take fast breaking things after your fast. That's not the message I'm trying to give out here. And at the same time, basically at 11 o 'clock when your eating window ended at eight, you're still in the fed state. Like you're not, you're not in the fasted state and taking a CBD gummy, which is, I highly doubt a lot of calories. Like it's probably a very minimal experience. It's not going to kick you out of fasting because you're not fasted yet. Yes, you're in the postprandial state. Like you stopped eating, but you're still in the fed state. So it's probably not really changing any mechanisms that are happening. And it's such a small amount of calories that you're probably going to deal with it pretty quickly. So basically I would not worry about it. I would still recommend getting feels CBD, but I wouldn't. And this goes for actually anything where like you have your eating window ending, you know, in the evening. And then if there's like a supplement of sorts that you take for sleep, I just, I wouldn't stress out about it. And at the same time, I would always try to find the cleanest version of all of these supplements. And most of the times, I mean, honestly, I can, I don't like making blanket statements, but I think I can say almost 95% of the time. If you're taking some sort of supplement, you can probably find one without any problematic fillers in it, or at least pretty benign fillers. So yeah, that's my thoughts. Any other thoughts to those thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
No, that's such a good point you bring up about being in the post-absorptive state. I didn't even think about that. So if you just had dinner, you're going to be in the post-absorptive state or the Fed state for four to five hours. So a few gummies wouldn't really, I don't think, prolong that much more. So that's a perfect point. So another reason to not stress about it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm glad you said that because I want to further clarify about that concept. The difference there is say you are deep into your fast and you have a gummy, which presumably is sweet and has a few calories. If you're into the fasted state, then your body gets hit with all of these mixed messages and then that might actually, quote, kick you hormonally out of your fast and restart the craving cycle and the context here is everything. It's a different thing taking it an hour or two after you ate versus deep into the fast. So, okay. Shall we go on to the next question? Yes, I'd love to. Okay. And then actually to end things, we have one more question about fasting and supplements. Vanessa, would you like to read this question from Rebecca? Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
So Rebecca is asking about algae and fasting. She says, Hi, ladies, I love the show. I listened to Melanie's biohacking podcast about algae and I'm wondering if taking spirulina tablets in the morning when it's recommended would break the fast. I take the chlorella before bed. So even though I'm technically fasting, I know I'm still in the fed state from eating in the evening. So I don't really worry about that. Thank you, Becky. Well, perfect question.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, perfect, perfect question. So, spirulina, just really, really briefly, we've talked about a ton, so I won't go overboard, no pun intended, but it's basically a blue-green algae, super rich, super rich in all of the nutrients. We are talking over 1500% of your vitamin A, 100% of your vitamin K, over 600% of your vitamin B12. And yes, this is a vegan form of B12, which is amazing. It's got 53% of your iron, and then it just has measurable amounts of so many other vitamins, B vitamins, B2, chromium, potassium, magnesium, so many things. And then it also has all of these unique phytonutrients like superoxide dismutase, which is an incredible antioxidant. It has glutathione, it has CoQ10. It's literally like a real food, whole foods form of a vitamin, and I'm obsessed with it, which is why I made it. I made an Avalon X spirulina. So, to answer your question, Rebecca, we, on my bag, we do not say anything about taking it in the morning, so I'm not sure where that was recommended. On our bag, we say take it with or without meals. Basically, take it based on your nutritional needs. So, to answer your question, well, I left out one of the main things. It's also high in protein, relatively speaking, and it's a complete protein, which is amazing again for vegans. So, yes, it breaks it fast, 100%. It's high in protein, high in nutrients. It is a food. I know it can be taken like a supplement. Mine comes in tablets, so you can swallow it whole. That said, you can eat it like a food, you can crush it and put it in smoothies. It is a food. So, yes, it breaks it fast. And it's, yeah, like Vanessa was saying, this is perfect timing that you take the chlorella right before bed, and you literally understand what we were just saying before that you're still in the fed state, so you don't really worry about it. And I would say the same thing about spirulina. People often ask me how to take it, and I suggest taking it in the eating window because it's a food. That's how I take it. If you take it during the fast, I consider it breaking the fast. So, that is my answer there. Any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly how I recommend it. I just did a podcast episode about what I eat in a day, my supplement routine, everything. And I talked about how I always have my spirulina whenever I open my eating window. And then I also have the cholera right before bed. But I know there is another company that recommends taking it in the morning for all day energy.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. My thoughts to that are, you could say the same thing about food. You could say, take food in the morning for all day energy. And it's just a completely different paradigm than the fasting, eating paradigm. It's my thoughts on that. And if friends would like to get my AvalonX spirulina, they can go to AvalonX.us and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon, and that will get you 10% off. So definitely check that out. And you can actually also get a 20% off coupon code when you text AvalonX to 877-861-8318. So that is AvalonX, A-X-A-L-O-N-X to 877-861-8318. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun recording and I can't wait for the next episode. Love all the questions as usual from our wonderful listeners.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Awesome. Well, listeners, you can get the full show notes as well as links to everything that we talked about at the show notes link, which is ifpodcast.com/episode382. And then you can email your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. You can also join my Facebook group and ask questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon and Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a great time and can't wait for our next recording likewise.

Melanie Avalon:
I will talk to you next week. All right talk to you then. Bye. Bye.


Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jul 14

Episode 378: Muscle Building, High Protein Diets, Weight Gain, Digestive Enzymes, Betaine HCL, Supplements, Fasting Over 40, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 378 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Be sure to try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

MD LOGIC: Unlock the secret to a perfect night's sleep with Melatonin Max by MD Logic Health! This unique clean formula is tested for accurate potency and combines 3 mg of immediate-release melatonin with 1 1/2 mg of slow-release melatonin, ensuring you fall asleep quickly and stay asleep all night without morning grogginess! Ideal for home or travel, Melatonin Max also helps combat jet lag and supports mitochondrial health with its potent antioxidant properties. Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code ifpodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code IFPODCAST!

Go to ifpodcast.com/X3 and use the coupon code SAVE50 to get $50 off!

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I’ve heard that fasting is not good as you get older? True?

Listener Feedback: Susan - My mother is 78, she’s been fasting for 5 years. She said she feels healthier and better now than she ever did in her 40’s and 50’s.

Listener Feedback: Karen - I am 64 and have been fasting for about 5 years. I feel great!

Listener Q&A: Lizzie - What are the health benefits for 70+ years? 

Intermittent fasting enhanced the cognitive function in older adults with mild cognitive impairment by inducing biochemical and metabolic changes: a 3-year progressive study

Effect of time-restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health in older adults: A systematic review

The effects of intermittent fasting regimens in middle-age and older adults: Current state of evidence

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 378 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 378 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your world, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Things are good. I was just telling you that I feel like I'm finally really getting back into my rhythm with work and balancing, you know, having the two kids now and the five month old and the toddler and just feeling like I'm getting my brain back partly. And big thanks to intermittent fasting for my interviewing. And last week was like the first week I felt like, wow, all the interviews went exactly as I wanted them to. Everything flowed well with work. I'm getting really organized again. Like it just feels really good. And it's taken a little bit of time to get here, but I'm feeling really excited about it. I had a really interesting interview last week and I was thinking about you so much preparing about this because I was listening to, so I interviewed Dr. John Jaquish and I had never interviewed him before. And he's a really interesting, he is a character. I was going to say character, but yes. Yeah. And I mean, if you follow him on Instagram, which I started following him last week when I was getting ready for the interview and I was like, he kind of projects a certain persona, you know, of like what he wants to put out into the world, like a lifestyle kind of thing, like a male influencer, let's say, if you're not following him already. But there was this great interview with Dave Asprey, one of your favorite people, and he was interviewing John. And it was a really interesting podcast because it was one of those interviews where it felt like they were just talking on the phone and nobody else was there, you know, kind of like when we talk. We're just dropping all these really interesting things that I wanted to ask you about. And if you knew about, okay, so they started talking about basically their diets and what they're eating. And Dr. Jaquish was, he's wanting to get a little bit more lean. So he was talking about the things that he was doing. And he does OMAD carnivore style, like he's doesn't eat all day. He does what we do on this podcast. And then he has a huge amount of ribeye steak for dinner. I mean, he eats a lot of meat for dinner. So huge protein meals and mostly steak, mostly carnivore. And he's someone who's very well versed on the research, researcher on exercise, physique performance, body composition. And he's an inventor for listeners. If you're not familiar, he invented a couple of devices, one of them that helps people with osteoporosis.

Melanie Avalon:
We created OsteoStrong, which is very well known.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And one of his early partners and investors in it was Tony Robbins, who just called him and said, I want your machine. I want your prototype. So really interesting. And he also created the X3 bar, which is this machine for gaining weight, which I also want to ask you about if you ever tried it.

Melanie Avalon:
have it. It's really interesting because I had him on the show as well. It's bands, essentially. It's like bands for resistance. And he has a whole book about... His book is called Weightlifting as a Waste of Time. I remember when I got the pitch for him to come on the show, I was like, this looks... I was definitely judgmental. I was like, this looks like he's just trying to sell something. I was actually really surprised reading the book, what all I learned, and then interviewing him. He really knew his stuff and the science behind it. And what was interesting is every person, so his X3 system, I've mentioned it to quite a few different people in the sphere who are well known. He's come up in conversation. And every time it's come up, they've said, yes, X3. If you actually do it, it really works. And it's super short. The workout is 10 minutes or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so do you like you're not much of a weights person, otherwise you would use it?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, A, now that we're talking about it, I really feel like I should. I am so not schooled and nuanced in the applying techniques to your muscles to build muscle. I was worried I was going to do it wrong. That's just me being lazy. He has a lot of videos. So I definitely could have should actually probably watch the videos and do it with the videos to make sure I'm doing it right. The program, it's these bands that you set up in it. The point is he talks about how it creates the optimal amount of contraction with minimal and I don't know all the terminology and I should. It's been a while since I interviewed him, but with minimal stress, essentially, you basically get all of the signaling input that you need to build muscle without the potential negative effects that happen with weightlifting.

Vanessa Spina:
the way I understand it is that we have different strengths at different points of when our limbs are extended and the bands and the bar help you basically meet each area of potential strength that you would have based on where you're at. So if your arm is extended back, you have a lot more strength than if your arm is fully extended. And so it's going to give you way more resistance when you're extended back than when you're fully extended. Whereas when you're lifting a weight, you're always dealing with the same amount of resistance, even though you have variability in your amount of strength. So you're pushing yourself harder where you should, which basically stimulates more muscle growth. Are you going to try?

Melanie Avalon:
Do you have the system?

Vanessa Spina:
I have the same thoughts, like I'm afraid to use it wrong and hurt myself.

Melanie Avalon:
And the thing is, like I said, he has so many videos. So like, I don't want to scare people away. Like, I think if you, if this sounds like something that would work for you, especially because it is very time efficient, it's like I said, very short workouts. He has a lot of resources. So I think you could watch the videos and do it correctly. I just personally was at the time and still now I felt overwhelmed at like learning how to do it, but I probably honestly should bite the bullet and learn how to do it. Like I said, I do think it could be a really great, efficient way to really support muscle maths and strength. Also just reading his book. Like I said, I thought his book was going to be just selling something, but I was really impressed with everything I learned about the science of why it works. And then when I was talking, like I said, to other friends in the sphere who are also well known and they were like, yeah, it's, it really works. I was like, Oh, okay. So if listeners would like to get their own system, we made a link for you guys. You can go to ifpodcast.com/X3 and use the coupon code save50 to get $50 off. So that's save five zero. So what did they talk about in the show?

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, I think he's a really fasting individual. So I was really interested when, you know, he started talking about how he does OMAD. He mostly eats protein with some fat, obviously, if he's having ribeye, but he does keto. He does like a high protein modified keto diet. And I thought that was fascinating. He also does these three day long dry fasts and he's been doing that. So kind of lion diet, lion diet, similar situation. And so he was asking Dave about, you know, Dave's like been leaning out a lot. He said he's super lean and they were hanging out recently and he, so he was talking about what he was doing. And Dave was saying that basically he does the same thing. He eats a hundred grams of protein at least at a meal, usually OMAD, but then he started eating more. And then they started talking about the new study that we were just talking about that came out about how there's no upper limit on protein synthesis. Oh, they were talking about that? Yes. So that I think the study had just came out when they did the interview. So they were saying how, how great it was, you know, also for people who like doing OMAD and you know, that you could basically, you're not just going to use 25 grams out of the hundred grams and then oxidize or burn off the rest. You're going to use it all and you can have most of those amino acids available for uptake for your muscles. So that was really interesting, but then it got more and more interesting because Dave said that what he's doing now is as he was doing high fat keto, he was losing so much weight and he got so lean that his team started telling him he needed to put some weight on because it was making him look old and he's supposed to be like this longevity expert. And so he said now he, he's trying this new diet to put weight on and he's eating three to 400 grams of carbonate with the high protein, like a hundred to 200 grams of protein. I think he was doing 200 grams of protein a day, two meals of a hundred grams of protein. And he said his HB1C was great. His triglycerides were great, like 60 or something. And he was doing it basically to put on weight, which is ironic. I'm not sure if he has though, but Dr. John Jake, which was really shocked, you know, that he was doing that because he's like the bulletproof guy. He's the keto guy, right? And now he's eating three to 400 grams of carb, which again made me think of you.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm like, wait a minute, that's my diet. That's like literally my diet you just listed. Did he copy it from you? I was actually thinking, I was like, have we talked about our diet? I probably have talked to him about it.

Vanessa Spina:
Funny because his idea of it was to gain some weight, that he wanted to put some fat back on his face and that's why he was doing it.

Melanie Avalon:
So when you say weight, you mean fat, you don't mean muscle?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like his team wants him to put some more like fat or something collagen or something in his face so that he doesn't because that's, I think that is one thing that can happen when people get really, really lean. It leans out your face and they found that it was making him look older and he was getting some like feedback on that. So it was just funny that he was doing high carb, high protein to gain some fat, but I don't think that he has because he doesn't look any thicker to me anyway. But Dr. John Jake, which was shocked that he was doing this diet. So I brought it up to him. And when I interviewed Dr. John Jake, which he said, yeah, he, so when John, when Dave said that to him, John Jake, which said what the F and also he sourced so many times honor episode that I had to text my editor during it. And then he realized I was doing that. He said, I just hit my F limit, my F bomb limit. Didn't I? Like it was crazy how many times he said that F word, but we're going to have to try to add bleeps or something because there were so many that we can't like cut it out. So it was really interesting just to hear all these things of how they were each approaching, you know, diet. And oh, so then Dave said, when he eats his a hundred gram protein meals, he eats them with tons and tons of enzymes because he says, you know, if you're eating all the protein, you still may not be getting all the amino acids and you really need to eat all the enzymes. And I remember that you do that. I take a little bit with my high protein meals, but I remember you take a lot and I wanted to ask you about that.

Melanie Avalon:
So I take betaine HCl, yeah. So I use that and I use digestive enzymes and they are a game changer for me. They help so much with digestion.

Vanessa Spina:
So I take one gram of HCl, and then I take three of the mass zymes by bi -optimizers, but I don't know what that is equivalent to. I really can't wait for you to make some enzymes, though.

Melanie Avalon:
So my currently big project has been spirulina. I think when this comes out, spirulina should be out, which is very exciting. But that's some sort of all -consuming. But my next really big project I want to do in the supplement world is I want to do a digestive supplement line. I'm so excited. I have a very specific take on it that I want to do that I'm not really seeing anybody do. So I basically want to, I'm not gonna tell you yet what it is, but I basically want to make the enzymes that I currently take and love. And tailor them towards this idea that I have. People do love mass enzymes but by optimizers. I currently have been taking pure encapsulations, their betaine HCL pepsin, as well as their digestive enzymes ultra. And I really, really like those. So the betaine HCL has 520 milligrams of HCL, 21 milligrams of pepsin in one capsule. So you said you take how much?

Vanessa Spina:
I take one gram of HCL right now, the start

Melanie Avalon:
the meal. I'm a really bad person to ask. I don't count and I just take intuitively what feels right which is a lot of them. Yeah, I really don't count and I don't want to put a number out there because I take a lot.

Vanessa Spina:
Like mass times, they recommend three, but I'm wondering, like, how many is Dave taking? How many are you taking?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so okay, with I can comment more on the, well, actually, I'll comment first on the HCL a little bit more. The test that people say to do is basically like, take the HCL, keep taking capsules until you feel burning. Step back from that because that means you're at your limit. And by the way, this is not this is not you don't have to like worry, because that sounds really scary, like burning. It's just because it's it's sounds really dangerous. It's just essentially stomach acid. So it's okay, you're basically, you're basically realizing where you're at the point of enough stomach acid. What's interesting for me is I really feel like I could just keep taking the HCL and I would never even I don't really ever, ever get any burning and I take a ton but I'm eating it with massive protein meals and I wonder if that has something to do with it. Because it's, you know, just digesting the protein basically.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had a naturopath on who said that exact same thing. I can't remember his name in this moment, but he was great. And he said, he gets people to do 500 milligrams and then one gram, 1 .5. Like just keep adding until you get to that point where you get some, like, is it a little bit of acid reflux or something?

Melanie Avalon:
Ironically, it shouldn't be acid reflux because you're digesting your food, so it's not really creating that issue of coming back up, which is acid reflux, but you'll feel a burning in your stomach, basically, which sounds scary again, but it'll be okay. What's interesting though, because I'm thinking about this more, I actually require a little bit less. If I do a complete carnivore meal, I actually require a little bit less than when I'm having it with all the fruit and cucumbers because I think the produce dilutes that HCl a bit. The pH is probably different that it's combating compared to when I am just eating meat and it's just that substrate, I require actually less HCl. For the enzymes, I know Matt and Wade at Bioptimizers, I mean, they talk about this a lot, how they'll take just tons and tons and tons, and I take tons and tons and tons. I take, like I said, currently the pure encapsulations, digestive enzymes, ultra. I don't experience any negative side effects from over. You don't get like a burning or anything with the enzymes like you do with HCl. The way I see it is that the more I add, the better I'm digesting the protein, and if there is like residual enzymes, that's just digesting more stuff and maybe even having a systemic effect. Maybe not because it's with my food. So I would say for listeners, if they feel like they're taking enzymes and it's not quite working, well, first of all, look at the quality and the brand that you're taking, but then beyond that, definitely try upping your dose and see if it helps. I take handfuls of this stuff. You said you take how many of the enzymes? Like a couple of capsules, three.

Vanessa Spina:
The massimes by optimizers, it says to take three within meal.

Melanie Avalon:
If you're struggling with the digestion, I would definitely try upping it. There's like two approaches you could go, long and slow, so you could try adding a little bit more each meal or Vanessa, you could try a meal where you just take a ton and see what happens and that would actually be like one meal that would give you a lot of feedback. It would give you a lot of feedback on what taking a lot does.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, see, I think most people probably need enzymes when they're doing high protein because like for myself, you know, most of my adult life, I was vegetarian. So I think my stomach acid got pretty low. And so did my all the proteases, lipases, I was barely eating protein or fat. So I took them a lot when I started doing high protein. But now I'm wondering, like, is my body actually breaking all the protein I eat down? Because there's so much of it. And then am I getting all the amino acids? So I'm just like trying to figure out, for those of us who eat, you know, the big protein boluses, like, there's no, no one ever talks about this, right? Like, you don't learn this, I didn't learn it in nutrition, school or anything in sports nutrition, either. Like, how do you make sure that you are actually getting all the amino acids into your bloodstream, you know, and you're not just like having them all missing out on some of them, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
such a good point and I do think it probably a good place to start is I mean it sounds vague but like do you feel like you're digesting at all well or do you feel on the flip side like you have digestive issues or is it feels like you're sitting in your stomach right like blowing

Vanessa Spina:
gas indications would be that it's not you're not fully breaking it down or feeling heavy after a meal or that kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon:
People don't know this often, but our gut bacteria can ferment protein if it reaches the large intestine. So if you're having gas and bloating from a primarily protein -rich meal, especially if there's not a lot of fiber or other substrates with it, then that means there probably is a significant amount of protein that's reaching your large intestine that wasn't completely absorbed because it's being fermented by gut bacteria.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I've had a couple of guests on the show to talk about that, and that's what I'm curious is, in that instance, is it just too much protein being consumed or is it a lack of enzymes? Probably requiring more enzymes. Your gut wouldn't ferment amino acids.

Melanie Avalon:
your intestinal cells are not going to ferment amino acids.

Vanessa Spina:
I've got bacteria.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it would be the gut bacteria and the colon. What's interesting about that point is that both camps will use that as arguments for both ways. I've heard low -carb people being like, you can actually ferment protein. But then I've also heard people deconstruct that and say, no, it's actually the byproducts of that have negative metabolic effects compared to the byproducts of fermenting fiber and carbs.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it's negative because your body would then be producing sulfide, like it would be producing sulfuric acid, which is, you know, ammonia is an issue, I think. It's probably a conversation we should have more, but like your body has to sequester the nitrogen that you break down when you break down protein in the liver, into urea, and then sort of package it up as urea and excrete it as urine, and it has to sequester that because it is toxic. So if you are having issues breaking down protein or you are eating a lot of protein and you're creating a lot of ammonia and sulfuric acid, it's probably not a good thing.

Melanie Avalon:
That's intuitively. I mean, because I remember when I first heard that and I was like, oh, yay, see, I can just eat the protein. But my gut instinct is leans more towards what you're saying, for sure. My no pun intended. Mom puns. Literal.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was just so fascinating to hear them talk about what they do exactly. And then last little bit, so when I had John on the show, I was like, so what did you think of Dave's diet? What do you say? It's kind of a little bit like gossipy comment. Like he said, oh, I think he's like getting ready to maybe market a product. But he said the reason he got so lean is because he was basically just eating amino acids, like essential amino acids. And that's it.

Melanie Avalon:
That would probably do it.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, so that's like the ultimate protein sparrow. No, and I like, and then I like, so are you going to try his high carb diet? And he was like, F no. It was kind of funny episode, actually.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I want to listen to that.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because when they were talking, it really, I really thought they were good friends. And then like when I asked them about it, but I think that's also maybe how men kind of are like with each other, like they'll make fun of each other. And it's not taken in a bad way. It's like a loving thing. Like my P always says when their friends make fun of each other, that's how they express affection. So, you know, whereas like women would never do that, never express affection by making fun of a friend, but men are wired a little bit differently when it comes to that. Anyway, yeah, it was interesting. Just all the talk about OMAD, that study and the enzymes. And then I really wanted to ask you about, you know, your routine. And I think it's probably just a conversation that should be had more because it's not being had very often. Like it was, it was almost shocking for me to hear Dave talking about that. And then talking about how he takes all these enzymes, you know, because you just don't, you just, that's just not really part of the conversation a lot. And it should be because we're talking so much about optimizing that protein intake, but optimizing it isn't just eating as much protein as you can, right? It's also making sure you're absorbing it and breaking it down, et cetera.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And what's funny is I'm just so, like I said, I'm so accustomed and used to taking massive amounts of enzymes. I forget that most people are not taking enzymes, definitely not in the amounts I'm taking them. Okay, but you're not eating like...

Vanessa Spina:
a bottle of meal.

Melanie Avalon:
in a bottle.

Vanessa Spina:
Like maybe a week.

Melanie Avalon:
Maybe. Okay. So let's see. So one of the 90 caps bottles. Yeah, probably a week, which would be like a dozen or so caps a meal, maybe a little bit more than that.

Vanessa Spina:
OK, that's not out of I mean, that's I could easily go from three to twelve. I was like having a hard time imagining swallowing a literal handful, like half a bottle or something at a meal. I was like, I can't do that.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just muscle memory for me now. Literally, I don't even think about it. All this fine, all this fine. It's probably more than 12 for me, but let's try 12 for you.

Vanessa Spina:
Let's try 12 and I'm going to report back if I notice any differences. But lately I feel like I've been adding in so many things, like I've been adding in spirulina and that's like another thing I have to make sure to do every day and then adding in collagen with my new collagen. I've been doing that. It's not something I was taking before. I'm adding in spirulina, collagen, chlorella before bed and there's like several other things I feel like I've been adding in lately. So HCL, just like so many things to swallow, you know, there's just like so many pills and things, but I think it's worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
I always dread when you're filling out, because I'm always, I was doing this last night, I'm always filling out these health intake forms because I'm trying products like left and right. And a lot of them are like blood work tests or the thing I was trying last night was this true diagnostic epigenetic age test and you always have to fill out this, you know, health intake form. I dread when I get to the supplement page where it's like, what supplements are you taking? I'm like, can I just not answer this? Because, and then especially with the ones where they want the details, like, you know, the amount and the frequency, I'm like, I can't, this is, I can't, this is too much. I can't, I can't fill all this out. I can't wait to send you my spirulina. It's almost done. Me too. It's almost done. I will say though, just comment quickly on the Dave thing. Since I recorded with him at his house in his kitchen, I can attest to the fact that his, his kitchen was, there were so many supplements. Just like everywhere. Just like on the counters everywhere. I was like, oh, okay, he definitely is taking these things.

Vanessa Spina:
I think Ray, do you follow Ray Kurzweil, Dr. Ray Kurzweil at all? Oh, it rings. Is he the rings a bell? He's the guy he came up with the singularity concept like when we will merge with

Melanie Avalon:
computer intelligence. Oh wait, I think I've listened to him. Has he been on Rogan? Oh yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
for sure. He's a fascinating individual, but I watched a documentary on him maybe like 15 years ago. He's the super positive guy. He's like super positive. So one of his best friends or close friends, I know who you're thinking of, the inventor of the XPRIZE. He is the super positive. Peter Diamandis.

Melanie Avalon:
I just remember when I listened to the interview with Ray that he was so like, some of the things he was saying sounded like pretty dark, but he was just kind of like really chipper about like everything.

Vanessa Spina:
And when you say super positive person, like Peter Diamandis comes to mind. Yeah, he does. He does come to mind. So positive about the future. And like, I just love that energy. Like I, I could be around it all day long. Anyways, they were in, they were both in that documentary together. Oh, cool. Wait, which, what was the documentary? I can't remember. I have to find it because it was 15 years ago. But all I remember is they were showing Ray and he was taking at least a hundred pills a day and he took them multiple times a day. And it was just like, I think the documentary was honoring him, but they were also kind of shadily, like just throwing in these shots of him constantly, like taking pills as a way to be like, okay, like he thinks he's going to live forever, but do you want to be taking this many pills a day? Like, is that a life that you want to be living forever? But I don't like taking supplements. I don't like taking a lot, but there really are, I think some that are super essential and then I kind of rotate them where I'm like, okay, these are my priority right now. I think what I love about spirulina though, just as a final comment on that is that it replaces my CoQ10 and fish oil. Like, even though I don't really take that, but I still feel good. It replaced it and it replaces it, a green supplement and also just a multivitamin. So for me, it's like, yeah, I have to take like 15 to 30 tablets of it, but it replaces so many things that I think it's worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I love the spirulina for that reason, that it's literally, it's crazy how much it's a nutrient powerhouse. It's just crazy. It's just like pure nutrients. Like you said, you don't need the multivitamin. I wouldn't, I mean, I understand that you feel comfortable doing it, just for listeners. I wouldn't advocate it to replace a fish oil pill because it's not, I mean, it's very low fat. So you're not really getting a lot of fat from it. So it's not like an omega, it's not a hardcore omega -3 source or anything, but it has, it does have those and it has specifically the, has that other special type of omega?

Vanessa Spina:
It has an omega -6 that basically the body treats as an omega -3.

Melanie Avalon:
The omega -3 that it does have, it has the EPA DHA forum, which is, you know, harkening to the types of omega -3s that you're getting from, you know, animal food, like fish specifically, which is great. And for listeners, so when this airs, that should already be out, which is very, very exciting. So you can get the spirulina at avlonx .us. Use the coupon code MelanieAvlon to get 10% off. And if you would like to get on my email list to get announcements about the newest supplements, because I am really excited, I am going to be creating a digestive supplement line in the future, get on my email list at avlonx .us slash email list. And you can actually also get text updates if you text avlonx to 877 -861 -8318. And when you do that, you will also get a 20% off coupon code that we text you. So that's pretty exciting. And for Vanessa, you also mentioned the collagen. How can people get your supplements?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm super excited about the collagen. It is the first collagen I found that has clinical grade RCTs behind it. It's amazing for really pumping up the collagen in the skin and even improving the appearance of cellulite. So I'm actually taking it. And like I said, I hate taking supplements. But for anyone who's interested, we are going to do an exclusive launch discount and everything just like we did for tone protein. And you can sign up for it at toneprotein .com. And that's for tone collagen, which will be out very soon.

Melanie Avalon:
so, so exciting because then I'm just thinking, basically supplements I take, I take during the day like seropeptase. I don't take, I'm not like Ray or Dave with, you know, these millions and millions. Really during the day it's like seropeptase, berberine. Those are like my fasting ones that I really, really take. And then like with food, spirulina, but I think of that more as a food, honestly. Like I chew it, I eat like a food. I don't, do you chew it and eat it or do you swallow it, the spirulina?

Vanessa Spina:
I just swallow it. But Luca likes to chew it, which is really cute. It's his medicine, right? Yeah, the medicine every night is like I gotta have my medicine.

Melanie Avalon:
So cute, I love it. Ooh, I wonder what he'll think of. Will you let me know what he thinks of the mermaid on the bag?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh yeah, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
I definitely will. He'll love that. I need Luca's thoughts on this bag.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, but as a mom, it makes me feel so good because we really prioritize protein with him and nutrient -dense foods, but I don't really get in all the veggies, and it's hard to do that with kids, but he has two, I think, tablets of spirulina, sometimes a bit of chlorella, and I've heard it compared to one pound of vegetables and nutrients in it, and I believe that from how nutrient -dense it is. It makes me feel so good that he likes it, and it's a thing that we do together every night before bed or sometimes in the morning, and I'm definitely going to do that with Damien as well, so I mean, there's just so many reasons to love it.

Melanie Avalon:
It's, it's amazing. Oh, it also is a vegan source of B12, which is amazing. I mentioned this on a prior podcast, but similar to you, like, I remember when I first read the late like really looked at the label for the back of the bag about what was in it nutrient wise. And I was like, is this right? Like it doesn't like it literally didn't seem like it was possible to have that many nutrients like 600% of like certain, you know, RDAs and stuff. So yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing. That was super fun. When does your episode air with John?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it should be coming out in the next two to three weeks. So that's like sometime, probably when this episode is coming out and that's Dr. John Jaquish. Perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, he's definitely a character as both he and Dave have really intense personalities. So them together would be a conversation for sure.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was definitely...

Melanie Avalon:
entertaining. All right. Shall we go into some fasting questions? I would love to. So I'm really excited about these questions. So I got this from my Facebook group and it's three questions slash comments. I'll read all of them and we can just address it together. So Stephanie wanted to know, she said, I've heard that fasting is not good as you get older, is that true? And then Susan commented, she said, my mother is 78. She's been fasting for five years. She says she feels healthier and better now than she ever did in her forties and fifties. And then Karen said, I'm 64. I've been fasting for about five years. I feel great. I do think longer fast on a consistent basis may not be too good. I think the same could be said for exercise, light cardio and some strength training is good, but going to hardcore can affect us negatively. Looking forward to hearing this episode for an expert's perspective. And then Lizzie, oh, there's actually more comments than three. Lizzie said, what are the health benefits for 70 plus year olds? Are there many people you hear of that have been fasting for 20 or more years?  

Vanessa Spina:
I think it can be confusing when you hear lots of different sources saying different things. There's obviously a lot of research supporting the benefits of intermittent fasting and fasting as well, but I think it depends on what your goal is with it. Some people are doing it for autophagy. Some people are doing it for fat loss. Some people are doing it for longevity. It kind of depends what you're optimizing for because it may or may not be the best way to achieve that. But at the end of the day, I always go back to you have to see how you feel and assess it for yourself because there can be so many studies done on these things, but at the end of the day, do you like it? Do you enjoy it? Do you feel energized, happy, productive? Do you feel your best self when you're doing it? Or do you feel miserable watching the clock, white knuckling it? And I think if you're feeling great on it, then obviously it's working well for you. If your labs are looking good and improving, et cetera. But if you are literally white knuckling it through your fasting window, then that may be not only creating stress, but just you're not enjoying your day. So what's the point of doing it, right? So I really think it comes down to subjective experience. I do want to note though, as well, that one of the concerns for people who are over the age of 40 that I often bring up is Dr. Don Lehman, who is an amino acid scientist, protein expert. He always commented that he does not think fasting is very well indicated for people who are over 40 because it's harder to maintain muscle. It's something I actually asked Dr. John Jaquish about in our podcast funnily enough, because I wanted to know his opinion because he does so much fasting and he's so well versed in the science of muscle. And this guy has more muscles, like he's got muscles on his muscles. He's like...

Melanie Avalon:
You go to the dictionary like muscle and it's like see john jake wish.

Vanessa Spina:
Exactly. And he does a lot of fasting. So I asked him what he thought about it. And he believes that fasting, there are certain metabolites or molecules that are protective of muscle. We've seen that people talk about growth hormone, people talk about ketones having a muscle sparing effect. He monitors his muscle growth and retention with computers. I think his latest, he's constantly doing not only DEXA but all kinds of different analysis because he wants to grow muscle. And that's his brand. He's the guy who can build muscle. So he thinks that it's malarkey. Basically, he thinks that anyone who says that you're going to burn off all your muscle if you fast is wrong. So it's really interesting to hear people's different takes on it. But I did recently hear Dr. Don Lehman saying that when he refers to fasting, it's over 48 hours. So for people who are really concerned about losing muscle, as long as they keep it under 48 hours, then that shouldn't be too much of a concern. But I just wanted to bring up that aspect because I know that it's a reason that a lot of people who are over 40 do have concerns about the effects of fasting. But there's also a lot of opinionated people in this space who are either praising intermittent fasting or tearing it down constantly. And I know it can be confusing hearing people's different opinions on it. So I'd love to hear some of the research that you were looking at, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, first of all, I'm glad that's it's such a good testimonial. It's so true. Like looking at somebody like John Jake, which who has so much muscle and he, like you said, he clearly practices intermittent fasting, right? Daily, like he has one meal a day.

Vanessa Spina:
He has one meal a day, and then when he did the interview with Dave, he had just finished a three -day dry fast, and he does those pretty often. He was saying, wow, that's intense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so yeah, that's a really good example. My thoughts were really similar to yours. So my initial thoughts before I like sat down did research was, I think in general intermittent fasting is wonderful for for people who are older, especially because we have often have more and more metabolic issues as we age, like our bodies, because when we're younger, you know, our bodies are more adept at kind of dealing with the often horrible onslaught that we throw at them with our diets and our environment and our lifestyle, like they deal like they're amazing they, but behind the scenes, things might be creeping up that will lead to problems in the future. So while we may not viscerally experience it, when we're younger, with creeping up blood sugar levels, you know, progressively rising insulin levels, you know, potentially negative effects with our lipid panels, down the road, when we get older, the body doesn't always put up with that forever. And these issues, unless we implement dietary lifestyle choices that change it tend to get worse with age rather than better. So something like fasting that can have profound effects on our metabolic health, I think can be incredible for older the older population. And then we just know about all these benefits, especially, I'll go into some of the studies that I found, but actually before that, the one thing I was thinking, though, and it's what you were just talking about as well, is that we do know that, you know, we need more and more protein as we get older, like that the requirement is raised, and preservation of muscle is so important for healthy aging, it's so strongly correlated to disease and mortality, as in, you know, low muscle mass being a problem. So the focus on protein, I think is so important. And so you definitely want to make sure with intermittent fasting, because you're eating in a smaller time window, that you're definitely getting enough protein in that window. And going back to what we were talking about earlier, this is perfect, that you can digest it. So making sure that when you're an older adult, that you're getting an ample protein and you know, doing digestive support so that you do with some like those amino acids, I think can be really important. So I did sit down and try to find some studies on this. And I found a really good review. So it was from 2021. It was called the effects of intermittent fasting regimens and middle age and older adults current state of evidence. They did make a note that they said basically they wanted and I'm, I'm talking in like more, you know, casual terminology, but they wanted to make it for like adults age 65 and older, I think, but that there's like less studies on the even like the older people get. So they looked at studies for people who are 50 and older, they looked through hundreds of studies, but the ones that met their criteria, they found four studies on quote, time restricted eating, which had windows from six to 12 hours. And then they found three studies on five to what was really interesting was that they said they also wanted to include studies on alternate day fasting, but none met their criteria. But I always considered five to alternate day fasting. Do you consider five to a form of alternate day fasting? Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
But in a sense, I'll always consider a day that you're eating food to be more of a low calorie diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, right. Because with 5 .2, on 5 .2 isn't an optional or to eat up to 500 calories on those days or...

Vanessa Spina:
I think most people eat 500 calories.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, five. So, okay. That's a good point. In any case, looking through these studies, here are some of the takeaways that they found. So they concluded that a growing body of evidence supports the promise of fasting regimens for middle -aged and older adults. They found that the time -restricted eating studies, so that was where people were doing eating windows, like six to 12 hours, they said they were particularly well -tolerated and that they produced modest weight loss when they were practiced on a daily basis. For 5 .2 specifically, they found that that form produced clinically meaningful weight loss. It had less consistent effects on metabolic parameters. That said that there were relatively few adverse events. The worst side effect they found in the older adults was a heightened risk of hypoglycemia, so more risk for low blood sugar episodes in patients with type 2 diabetes. So basically, in the older population where they have poor glycemic control already, the fasting, they did see some cases where they actually got low blood sugar issues. They did address that, and they said that maybe a way for people to basically work with that was to just take a slower approach to implementing intermittent fasting that maybe with the setup of the studies that people with type 2 diabetes, it was just kind of too much of a shock to the system, and that's why people were getting low blood sugar episodes. So they did posit that as a potential solution there. They said, oh yeah, here's where they said that they couldn't find any studies that tested the effects of alternate day fasting or alternate day modified fasting approaches in older adults. They did find, so benefits -wise, they did find, besides the weight loss, that there seemed to consistently be beneficial effects on blood pressure, which is super important because that's really heavily tied to cardiovascular health, and we know that cardiovascular disease is the number one cause of mortality. People think it's cancer, but it's actually cardiovascular disease. They did not find any serious side effects. The worst side effects they found were hypoglycemia episodes that I already mentioned, as well as some constipation. One of the things they talked about that I really appreciated and was something I was thinking about with this question was they talked about all the incredible benefits potentially of calorie restriction for health and longevity, but that there are concerns with that for older adults getting enough nutrients and protein and also preserving muscle. They were saying that intermittent fasting can basically probably create the benefits of calorie restriction without the negative effects of loss of lean muscle and loss of bone density and even potentially malnutrition. They were basically fans of calorie restriction for the older population. What they ended with, though, again, was just this importance of making sure, because of the potential for sarcopenia, that the older adults do get enough protein to support that. Then there were a few other good studies I found. I found a 2020 study called intermittent fasting enhanced the cognitive function in older adults with mild cognitive impairment by inducing biochemical and metabolic changes. That was a study that looked at 99 elderly subjects and they were either regularly practicing IF or they were irregularly practicing IF or they were not fasters. This is a cohort study. Basically, they're looking at what people are doing and seeing what's happening. They followed them for three years and they found that the group that was regularly practicing intermittent fasting, they had no cognitive impairment and disease compared to those who were irregularly practicing intermittent fasting or not practicing intermittent fasting. That's amazing. They said that what they saw in the group that was fasting in this older population that could be involved in the prevention of cognitive decline was they had higher levels of superoxide dismutase. They have lower body weight, lower insulin, lower fasting blood sugar, lower C -reactive protein, which is an inflammatory marker in the body, and less DNA damage. They postulated that other ways that IF may be really helping the metabolic pathways for cognitive function was from the use of ketone bodies, so being in the ketogenic state. Also, pyruvate metabolism and effects on the glycolysis and gluconeogenesis pathways. What was super cool was they also found that those who regularly practice IF, they had better cognitive scores and they had better cognitive function also at a 36 -month follow -up. That was cool. Then also, sort of similar, there was a 2024, so very recent, a systemic review. It was called effective time -restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health in older adults. It looked at eight studies and their conclusion was that time -restricted eating may have a positive impact on cognitive function and mental health in this older population. They did say that further research was needed though. Basically, the takeaway for me was that we see so many beneficial effects with intermittent fasting in the older population and I really think just as long as you're paying attention to that one concern of making sure you're getting adequate protein and then with things that it was finding with the hypoglycemia and such, making sure you're not going too extreme, finding the pattern that really works for you. If you're having trouble with blood sugar swinging issues, definitely try a continuous glucose monitor. We're major fans of those. It'll be a game changer because it'll give you a clear picture of your blood sugar levels 24 -7 so you can see how your fasting is affecting you, how your food is affecting you and you can adapt accordingly. We really love Nutrisense. You can go to Nutrisense .com slash ifpodcast and use the code ifpodcast. That will get you $50 off, so definitely check that out. For Lizzie's question about, are there many people you hear of that have been fasting for 20 or more years? I'm trying to think if I personally, personally know anybody who have been doing it for 20 or more years. The ironic thing is as a species, we just were doing this as our life for a long time. As far as many people, there's been millions of people who have done this for 20 or more years. I'm just trying to think if I actually know anybody personally. I've been doing it. Oh, that's crazy. I've been doing it since 20 ... I've been doing it since 20. 10? So I've been doing it 14 years. Oh, wow. That's weird. How about you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's been around the same amount of time.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you know anybody like who's been practicing it for like over 20 years probably?

Vanessa Spina:
But I don't feel like it's something that I talk about with them, but I do know a lot of people who do OMAD Carnivore have been doing it for a long time. It's hard to know other than myself and you and probably like Cynthia and Jen. Because I just don't know that many people personally in my actual life who do intermittent fasting. I think a lot of my friends and family are starting to get interested in it now, which is interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
I feel like it started becoming really popular in the past five years or so, maybe. Once we fast forward another decade, I think there'll be a lot of people who've been doing it over 20 years who are talking about it. Because to your point, I think a lot of people do it, but in the past, it wasn't something that was something to talk about, it was just the way people ate. But now it's this whole thing that's in the news and the studies and we have a podcast about it that we've had for, you know, six years or so, seven years, I don't know, when did the show come out? A long time ago. So I think there are a lot of people and there's probably a lot more that aren't talking about it as well. So, okay. Any other thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think you covered it really well. Thank you for looking up all those studies.

Melanie Avalon:
Love getting these questions and then it's always just so fun to sit down and be like What's gonna come up like I'm always really curious like what's gonna come up when I sit down with Google Scholar and have a moment So for listeners if you would like to submit your own questions for the show You can directly email questions at I a podcast calm or you can go to I a podcast calm and you could submit questions There also definitely join me in my Facebook group, which is called if biohackers You can ask questions in that group as well I also post a lot in that group and ask for questions and for thoughts on things and we share it on this show So definitely check that out and the show notes will be at I have podcast comm slash episode 377 those show notes will have a full transcript and also links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out You can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl I think that's all the things anything from you Vanessa before we go

Vanessa Spina:
This episode was so much fun, like always, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too, thank you. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 13

Episode 369: Hair Recovery, Tension Headaches, Intuitive Eating, Dopamine High-Jacking, Ultra Processed Foods, Whole Foods, Disordered Eating, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 369 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Unlock the power of nature with colostrum, a nutrient-rich first form of milk containing antibodies, growth factors, and various immune system components to support a stronger immune system, digestion, gut health, muscle recovery, and overall health and wellness! Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

To submit your own questions, email Questions@IFPodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

AVALONX SPIRULINA: Spirulina is being formulated now! AvalonX supplements are free of toxic fillers and common allergens (including wheat, rice, gluten, dairy, shellfish, nuts, soy, eggs, and yeast), tested to be free of heavy metals and mold, and triple-tested for purity and potency. Get on the email list to stay up to date with all the special offers and news about Melanie's new supplements at avalonx.us/emaillistGet 10% off avalonx.us and mdlogichealth.com with the code MELANIEAVALON!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Try MD Logic's Colostrum today and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

Listener Feedback: Alani - Every time I tried to do a longer fast over 19 hours, I kept getting these horrible tension headaches...

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 369 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 369 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm doing great, how are you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm good. Have you listened? I will not make this all about Taylor Swift, but have you listened to her new tortured poets department album?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't yet, but I really want to and listen to every, every lyric. I haven't yet. I'm guessing you have

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes, it's okay. We'll have to report back. It's long and it's a journey.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's one podcast breakdown I saw that did it over I think an hour and a half. I'm just going through that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Apparently the drama about it is everybody thought it was going to be mostly about her six year relationship with Joe Alwyn and most of the songs are actually about her like brief three or four month relationship with Matt Healy in between Joe Alwyn and the football guy.

Melanie Avalon:
Was that who's the football guy? Travis Kelsey? Yes. So that's that. I highly recommend. And non Taylor Swift related news, I think probably today, hopefully I will be submitting the invoice for everything to get my spirulina supplement going.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's very exciting. I've like hinted at it, but the reason I just feel like I've been talking about the supplement for so long. It's crazy how some things take so much longer than you anticipate, but have you tried spirulina or chlorella?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm obsessed. I take it every single day.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you like the spirit of Lena better, the chlorella, or the blend?

Vanessa Spina:
I take both. Yeah, I take both.

Melanie Avalon:
Everyday yeah okay that's awesome how much do you take.

Vanessa Spina:
So I take about, it works out to six or seven grams of each per day. So depending on which brand, like I have a few different brands. I have one like energy bets. I have one from, from Prague that I got locally.

Vanessa Spina:
That's also raw, spirulina and chlorella. And yeah, it works out to about like 30 tablets worth, but six or seven grams.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, then I probably take I probably take like 15 grams cuz I take like

Vanessa Spina:
Double that. 60.

Melanie Avalon:
90 tablets or so, yeah, or like 75. That's amazing. I love them. So basically what they are, for listeners, if they're not familiar, they're a blue -green, they're an algae, and they are just super, super rich in nutrients.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it's kind of ridiculous. The nutrient profile, they're just like pure nutrients. So when people think like, I'm not saying it's like a multivitamin or anything, but it's kind of like what it is.

Melanie Avalon:
They also have like, so they have like B vitamins and all the normal, you know, normal vitamins you would think of, iron, beta -carotene, but then they have like really specific nutrients. Like, so spirulina has glutathione in it, which is crazy, and superoxide dismutase.

Vanessa Spina:
That's the one I basically take it for.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Like, Chlorella also has that. It has nucleic acids and CoQ10. Like, these really cool niche rogue nutrients. They're high in protein, they're a complete vegan protein, so they actually have all nine amino acids.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just really, really awesome. So the reason it's been taking so long is I had to find a good source because I am going to also ultimately make a spirulina, a chlorella, and a blend, but we're starting the spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
I had to find a source, so I had to like, I'm really intense with the raising practices. So for spirulina, we finally found this amazing farm in Hawaii. And it's like, they're a super sustainable farm.

Melanie Avalon:
They have all these really cool practices that they do to support the planet and with their water use and their electric use. And it's just really, really cool. And then on top of that, we wanted to test it to make sure it was free of pesticides, heavy metals, all of those things.

Melanie Avalon:
We had to do that. But the hardest thing about it was it was really important to me to have the best that I could make. And I know there are single ingredient tablets on the market. And we kept doing, trying different formulations to make it a single ingredient.

Melanie Avalon:
And we just couldn't. There's no way to make that powder into a single tab and it be consistent and basically for it just to work. I mean, like so intense about it. I'm like, but it's on the market, so it can be done.

Melanie Avalon:
Spoiler alert, we tested other brands and they are not actually one ingredient. So then I felt better. I was like, okay, so I'm like trying to do the impossible here. So mine is going to have silica in it, a very, very tiny minute amount.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so small that I could actually not mention it and say it's one ingredient. That's how brands get away with doing that. But for me, it's really important to be like overwhelmingly transparent with everything I do.

Melanie Avalon:
So it does have a tiny bit of silica in it, but silica actually has its own array of health and benefits. So now I actually prefer it with the silica. Again, it's a super, super tiny amount. But that's my long winded way of saying why it's taken so long.

Melanie Avalon:
And then of course there was the whole art fiasco and I really wanted my mermaid on the cover and there was a mermaid on the cover. So get excited. But in any case, when this launches, I wish I had the actual launch date because I was just texting with our partner Scott about the invoice, but today's episode airs mid May.

Melanie Avalon:
So it'll probably be shortly thereafter. I'm so excited. I feel like it's been a while since I've launched a supplement. So and for listeners, there will be a launch special. Oh, and we're trying to fix the pricing to make it more affordable because I know it can be pretty expensive.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm trying my hardest to make it as affordable as possible. So when it launches, it will be at Avalon x .us. Definitely get on my email list to get the updates so you don't miss the launch special.

Melanie Avalon:
And for that, that will be at Avalon x a b a l o n x .us slash email list. Okay, that's my exciting product update. Any updates from you?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a big thing happen in my life this week with regarding a supplement, which is that after 20 years of wearing hair extensions, I quit. I totally had them taken out. And the craziest thing is it's been like this whole like health hair journey for me, because when I was 17, I like turned vegetarian and vegan.

Vanessa Spina:
And my hair just really suffered from not getting enough protein and not getting enough nutrients when I was eating plant -based. But I was doing it because I thought it was the healthiest way to eat.

Vanessa Spina:
And my hair was the biggest, I guess, the worst thing that happened really during all that time of my health going downhill and declining when I went plant -based was that my hair really became so brittle and fine.

Vanessa Spina:
It just stopped growing past my shoulders, and I always had long hair. At one point, I had it down below my hips. I always had really long, nice, flowy, thick hair. And my hair just was like, it just wouldn't grow anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
So I started getting hair extensions when I was in my early 20s, and I just became addicted to it. So I would get them put in, and then I would have them for five to six months, and then I would switch them out, and I'd just been living like that for years and years and years.

Vanessa Spina:
And I felt like the last time that I went, right before the holidays, I had them switched out. And I was like, my hair, in between having them taken out and having the new ones put in, I was like, wait a second, my hair is crazy long now.

Vanessa Spina:
It is so long, and I remember thinking, having quite a pause in between having them taken out and put back in, that I was like, maybe I should just stop doing this. Why am I doing this anymore if my hair is so long?

Vanessa Spina:
It was too far into the process at that point. I just finished, got them put in, and then left. But it's been nagging on me ever since. So this week, I had them taken out actually yesterday, and it was crazy.

Vanessa Spina:
My hair now is longer than the extensions that I was having put in. So you would have to cut my hair to match the length of the extensions, because it's so long. And I know that it's because of this high -protein lifestyle that I've been doing for the last five years.

Vanessa Spina:
Hair is protein. It's keratin. And I know that my hair was suffering back then when I was plant -based for most of my adult life. And then in the last five years, really reversing everything and especially going high -protein, I can see the effects of it.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's the most incredible feeling for me to be able to touch my scalp, run my fingers through my hair, and not have any bonds or anything in there. You get used to it, and you don't really notice that they're there anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
But oh my gosh, it just feels amazing. And I just can't get over the fact that my hair is so long and full again. And it just feels so natural and nice. And I actually feel prettier without them in, because it must be some kind of, I don't know, just maybe some maturity that I'm having as well.

Vanessa Spina:
But it's an amazing feeling. I got back yesterday, and Pete was like, wow, this is really nice. And I kept making him touch my head all night. Touch my head again. Touch my hair. And he was like, yeah, it's great.

Vanessa Spina:
For someone who always loved having long hair in my whole life, the fact that I sort of accepted, this is just going to be how it is for me. For the rest of my life, I'm just going to have to wear hair extensions.

Vanessa Spina:
And the fact that I could take them out and be sitting here and just stroking my hair while I'm talking and I don't have anything in there is just the best feeling. So just on wellness, health journey, personal journey, there's so many things that are important, obviously, in terms of our overall health.

Vanessa Spina:
And hair is just a vanity thing maybe, but it's a big deal for most people to have nice hair, to have healthy hair. It's a reflection of your inner health, I think, too. And I couldn't just be more excited about this.

Vanessa Spina:
So that's my personal update. And it's really fresh because it just happened yesterday. So this morning was the first time I woke up and I didn't have all these extensions in. I blow dried my hair, and it was just my hair.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's not as luscious and thick as it was with the extensions. And I have some split ends, but it's my hair. You know what I mean? It's just such a cool, cool feeling.

Melanie Avalon:
That is amazing. Okay, I have thoughts and questions. One, I had no idea you had extensions. Okay, so you, and that makes sense hearing what you said about how your hair was thick before. Like you look like the type of person, your hair looks like the type of hair that is naturally thick hair.

Melanie Avalon:
And maybe, and I understand that you had extensions in, so like how could I know that? But like, it makes sense to me what you're saying. Like it makes sense to me that you had really thick hair and then it wasn't and now it's thick again.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you're saying that at one point it was naturally, but lower waist anyways. Is that what you were saying?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, when I was up until I was around 12 or 13, my hair was down to my butt. It was so long. It was always really healthy and great. I definitely know. I made mistakes, especially going plant -based and not knowing.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not saying that you can't do plant -based well, but I did not know how to get enough protein. I didn't know how to take spirulina and to take all these other things like protein powder, collagen, all this stuff that I know about now.

Vanessa Spina:
I didn't know that I was under eating protein for so many years. I talked to and hear from a lot of women who deal with hair issues. I think it can be insufficient calories. You're not getting enough calories in total.

Vanessa Spina:
A lot of times, it's insufficient protein. It's something that I'm super in such a profound way to our diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, 100%. I'm just thinking about it because like so like with my hair. Okay, so again, well, hey, my mind is just blown because they literally had no idea that you had extensions. Did you have the you had the bonds?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had bonds in I posted a picture yesterday on my Instagram with my extensions out and it's just so wild to me that like that's just my hair like it's just my hair and it's so long and it's Just natural like it's crazy.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's I Guess like it they blended really well in my hair and I I don't think there's anything wrong with getting hair extensions like obviously I did it for a long time, but I think for me there was like this feeling with feeling like I had to always have them or like I had like I said, I had just like accepted that that was how it Is for me like oh my hair just like you know got really bad during this time in my life and it's never gonna fully recover and I'm just here to say like it can recover and It can look better than like you think it can or you know I don't want to say that you ever dreamed up because like, you know for me It's like returning back to how it used to be but it's amazing how you know just protein can make such a huge difference and collagen all these things and and You know eating a nutrient -dense diet and and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
So

Melanie Avalon:
I completely agree and believe it. And so like, so my hair journey, so my hair is super thin, and it's always been thin. Like it's never been like, Oh, I'm so jealous of people who wear it's like down to, you know, like that could be at their waist, like just naturally.

Melanie Avalon:
So I've been getting extensions for you said you've been getting yours for 20 years, right?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I'm rounding up, but like I started when I was like in maybe 15 years, like altogether.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. Did you also have bonds in? Oh, yeah. So I was going to comment on that. I was going to comment on that and the diet aspect piece, because I've definitely seen. So basically, I have seen a huge difference in my hair, even though it's super, super thin, based on different journeys in my diet history.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true, everything that you said, about how the protein intake and everything, you really see it in your hair. And I remember when I was hardcore supplementing collagen for a while, it was like when I had no money.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, I can't really afford this, because then I have to keep redying my, I mean, fixing my roots too often, you know? I can. Or getting a manicure. I can't afford to get a manicure this often.

Melanie Avalon:
I take the collagen, it grows so fast.

Vanessa Spina:
fast. I noticed that was one of the first things like when I started going higher protein, I was like, I have to get my manicures done so much more often. And, you know, I feel like I'm going to the hair salon for because I, you know, get my roots highlighted.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's like, it feels like it's like every month, it's like every six weeks, but it's fast.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it's crazy. I did bonds for the longest time and this is just my own personal opinion. Did you ever try, first of all, this is not me trying to say go back to them, I'm so happy for you. I'm just curious, did you ever try tapens?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so this is my PSA.

Vanessa Spina:
My best running candidate is.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, friends, if you do hair extensions ever, do tapens and never look back until you get like luscious normal hair like Vanessa and then look and then take them out. Yeah, they're so easy, they just like stick in and they're so light, you don't even feel them and then to replace them or take them out is so easy compared to the bonds where it takes like hours and hours and you have these individual bonds and then they pull your hair out and every time I would get them redone, I just felt like I would like shutter because I felt like my hair was getting, I could tell it was doing damage like the bond aspect of it to the hair.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think it definitely does.

Melanie Avalon:
Compared to the tape ins, I experience zero damage. It's nice because I can see how it's like my hair salon woman. I remember she made a comment probably a few years ago, and she was like, your hair is really getting, like your actual hair is getting better.

Melanie Avalon:
That probably was when I was really focusing more on nutrition and protein and all the things. It's so true, everything you said about you really, really see it in your hair and nails for sure. It's so true.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, that's one of the many reasons I'm so passionate about protein, like why I wanted to create tone protein and one of the reasons Scott and I are working on the collagen next, tone collagen. It's one of those things, whether you're a woman or a man, that hair and nails and skin, they're all such important aspects of beauty, right?

Vanessa Spina:
It's not about vanity. Again, when you are really well on the inside, your skin looks great, your hair looks great, your nails look great, they're strong, and it's just a reflection of what's happening inside.

Vanessa Spina:
So I think that's why it's so exciting. When your hair dresser says your hair is getting better, I totally know that feeling or you feel like you're getting compliments on your skin or that kind of stuff, it makes you want to do more of it and it makes you really glad that you are doing the things, taking the supplements and focusing on having an optimized protein intake and all that.

Vanessa Spina:
It just makes a huge difference. I love talking about it and sharing a little bit of our own personal experiences with it because for anyone who's listening who struggled with having fine hair, I'm not saying that you can have the most amazing hair ever.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I said, mine is definitely not as luscious without the extensions in, but you can improve it a lot and don't give up. If you've been someone who's maybe had a low protein intake for a long time and you've noticed a difference with your hair, there's definitely improvements that can be made.

Melanie Avalon:
And you can see it. I think you can see it relatively quickly in the hair and nails and especially with the collagen. I just remember every time I've done like a run of collagen. It's like shocking to me how fast I See the difference.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's true. Did you ever have had the experience? I remember I was so remember was nice living in LA having hair extensions because if I would go out with men like new men, I Knew it was like normal like everybody there has extensions almost so I was never I wasn't really concerned about them Like putting their hands in my hair and let me have me like explain and I moved to Atlanta and I'm like I'm like don't touch there Like on a day

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's, it's funny because like, you know, especially if you have them in like, they just kind of become a part of you. Like you don't really think about them. Yeah, you don't think about them. You don't think about them.

Vanessa Spina:
That's another thing that like, I'm really excited about is like, I like wearing my hair half up. And it's just like, nice feeling not to feel like they might be showing or something, you know, like that, that not that it bothered me that much, but it just made me feel sometimes like, like I wasn't well put together or something like if I had my hair like that.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's often doing hairstyles like that only wearing it half up at home, but I like wearing half up all the time, like outside of the house too, like not just in a ponytail or down. So it's fun to feel like now I can be a little bit more versatile with like different things that I do with it because I'm not worried about them showing.

Vanessa Spina:
And yeah, so that's, my big excitement this week. Yeah, it's a big, big thing after 15 years of coming to an end. That is super.

Melanie Avalon:
Did I tell you what they did when I was on Millionaire Matchmaker? No. So this was also in L .A. and so it's like a dating show with this woman Patti, something, something. It's a crazy experience, but in any case, she like wanted to do a makeover on me.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember that the producers came up to me and they were like, if Patti wants... So it was like before we had gone into... Have you watched that show before?

Vanessa Spina:
I have, and it's just launching again. It is. She's doing it with Nick Viall or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I did watch that show and I watched it with my brother once he was staying with me and we were like cracking up about it. But you were on it. I remember you were on it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I feel like I've told you about it before. So if I'm being repetitive, I apologize. It was an interesting experience because I honestly thought, I honestly thought all of the girls on the show, because this was in LA, so I thought it was like, when you respond to casting calls for these things, like there's, it's not like, I thought all the girls there were gonna be, wanna be actors like me.

Melanie Avalon:
I didn't think it was women actually trying to find true love.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I thought it was. I thought it was like people who wanted to be on TV or... Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
like half the girls there were serious. Wow, mm -hmm. I remember I was like having a conversation with a girl and I was like, why are you here? And she was like, well, I just, you know, I haven't found that man yet and I just feel like this might be the way to do it.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, honey, like this is not, not the place, not the place. But in any case, the point of the story is the producers came up at one point and they were like, if Patty wants to do a makeover on you, you have to do it.

Melanie Avalon:
If you don't do it, you're gone from the show. Like it was really intense. And I was like, okay. Of course she picked me. And so then they like took me into this, it was so like B budget level. Like they just, it was like not a nice setup, but they were like, we're gonna like cut your hair and dye your hair and do all this stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And they did. And it was fine because I knew I was about to get my hair extensions redone anyways. So I was like, oh, whatever. I'll just let them do what they do and then I'll fix it myself. But what's funny, what's funny is in the make, so then, so they cut it, they dyed it, they did stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And then the actual like day where we're meeting the men, I'm just thinking about the men that were on it. But in any case, when we were doing that, that day they like put hair extensions in my hair and all this stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And then when they were like doing the part where they're like, what makeover did you do to Melanie? Patty was like, well, we just did like color in a blowout. I'm like, you didn't do color in a blowout.

Melanie Avalon:
You like added extensions. Like this is not real hair. So that's my extension story. People lie on television is the point.

Vanessa Spina:
good for you for doing that there's no way i would ever let anyone do a makeover on me.

Melanie Avalon:
It was literally not normally. It was literally, I was literally getting my hair extensions, like I said, redone the next week. So I was like, if, if I'm going to get it redone anyways, just do whatever you want.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember, oh, I remember one time, sorry. And this is the last thing I was doing. Uh, I was doing stand and work on, I think in CIS or something long story short, the way one of the ways, I don't know if it's still this way, but one of the ways that you can get into the sag union is by getting three.

Melanie Avalon:
It's a long story, but three sag vouchers on TV shows, which are very hard to get because in order to get a voucher, you have to be sag. So it's like this weird catch 22 thing. It's a weird system. I had two, I needed one more.

Melanie Avalon:
They booked me as a stand -in and they were like, we're going to have to cut your hair if you do it. I think I was going to be like a dead body or something. I don't know, but, um, for one of the characters, but I remember it was this moment where they're like, we don't know if we're going to have to cut your hair.

Melanie Avalon:
Cause we don't know if they're going to have the scene. They might cut the scene. And so I remember like sitting in there and wardrobe and with hair and makeup. And I was like, can you just like cut my hair very, very last minute if they need me and the woman was so nice.

Melanie Avalon:
She like held out for me and then they didn't have the scene. So I got my sag voucher cause I was already there and they didn't cut my hair, but it was a moment where I almost like had to cut it super short.

Melanie Avalon:
And it was like a moment of like reflecting your life choices and like what matters to you at this moment.

Vanessa Spina:
There's so much, oh my goodness.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, don't even get me started. Oh, I can't, there's so much, that was a lot. So how can people best get your tone protein and learn about your new collagen when it's coming and all the things?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, if you go to tone protein .com, you can get the link there to purchase tone protein and you can also sign up there for the email list for tone college and if you want to stay tuned for when that is going to be out.

Vanessa Spina:
So exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I just love that we're able to make these supplements that really make a difference in our lives and then we get to make our perfect manifestation of them. It's just a wonderful situation and then to share it with everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
It is because oftentimes like with tone protein, like I had to create the protein that I wanted to be in the world. And I know you feel the same way with magnesium eight, you know, and now you're spirulina and it's like you want to create the things that you want to be in the world because you want to take them yourself selfishly.

Vanessa Spina:
Like this is the protein powder that I wanted to be out so that I could take it. And I also want all my friends and family to take it. And I also want everyone who's listening and in our communities to be able to take it if they want to, you know, and people ask us all the time about supplement recommendations and what we take.

Vanessa Spina:
And, you know, there's nothing you can recommend more, something more wholeheartedly than something you've actually created because you know, it's the highest quality, the purest cleanest. Like, and I know you, you have such high standards for what you create and put out in the world.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm super excited. I can't wait to try your spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
No, thank you. I feel the exact same way. And even with like the spirulina and chlorella's, I've always just been suspicious of, and I don't want to say suspicious, I don't want to put up bad vibes because the other brands I take, I love and I take currently because I don't have my own.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love it. But I just wanted to know exactly what was in there. And with mine, I know exactly what's in there. And I know, and I've like tested it and it tastes, oh, it tastes amazing. So yes. Oh, oh, and it's a tangent.

Melanie Avalon:
So silica, like I said, that we're using as the tiny additive is really, really great for hair, skin and nails. Like really, really amazing. So that also compliments. Okay. Shall we get into some fasting things?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I would love to. Okay. So to start things off, this is actually something that somebody posted in our Facebook group. So we thought we would share and read it. It's from Alani. I think that's probably how you say it.

Melanie Avalon:
So she says, thank you so very much to Melanie Avalon and Vanessa Spina for their great podcasts, all of them. I wrote into the I have podcast a while ago. I'm a 49 year old woman who's been doing intermittent fasting for about five years.

Melanie Avalon:
Thanks to this podcast. Every time I tried to do a longer fast over 19 hours, I kept getting these horrible tension headaches that would start in my shoulders and go up to my neck and head. My body was clearly telling me it wanted to eat, but because I wasn't hungry and because I wanted to lose a little weight around the middle and I wanted the benefits of fasting, I tried to override my body's feedback.

Melanie Avalon:
Thanks to Melanie and Vanessa's podcast advice, I now have changed things up. I eat a very high protein diet and instead of one meal a day, I have either breakfast and dinner or lunch and dinner. I fast overnight from 7 p .m.

Melanie Avalon:
to anywhere from 9 a .m. to noon. When I'm hungry, I eat. I lost eight pounds. I've kept it off by doing protein only days. I never knew about this until I heard Melanie talking about it on the podcast and then Vanessa talking about high protein diets and both of them talking about protein sparing modified fasts.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so much nicer eating only protein on a day instead of water and I don't have to worry about losing muscle and no tension headaches. I'll have a grass -fed finished steak in the beginning of the day and then at the end of the day, I'll have some ground turkey or ground chicken and hard -boiled eggs and some chocolate protein powder with milk for dessert.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm completely full and satiated. I have to admit that whenever I do one of these days, all I want is salad and blueberries and chocolate but I just tell myself I can eat them tomorrow. Each time I do one of these high protein days, my pants fit better and the weight stays off.

Melanie Avalon:
At first, I did them every Friday for about two months and then when I reached my goal weight of 133 pounds, I'm 5 '5". I do them whenever my pants get a little too tight around the belly button. Can't thank you enough for this incredible way of eating breakthrough.

Melanie Avalon:
So yeah, Vanessa actually flagged this. She saw this in a group and said we should read it and I agree. Do you have thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love Alani and I just so appreciate her enthusiasm and I know she was saying that she was using the tone device as well in her, I think she had a follow up comment after her post there that she's been using it.

Vanessa Spina:
And she was saying that after she does the high protein days, she gets really high fat burning the next days. And it's just like really cool feedback. So there's so many different things that you can do and sort of like test out.

Vanessa Spina:
And she's been sending me really enthusiastic, excited emails about the tone device too. So I saw her post in the Facebook group and I was like, this is amazing. And we recently answered, it wasn't that long ago that I think she wrote in and we addressed that question.

Vanessa Spina:
So I love getting to do follow ups. If you ever are listening and asked a question and you want to give us an update, it's super fun to share updates, especially just amazing success stories like Alani's

Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much. And yeah, I love these days of of the protein only hacks. I feel like at least for me, it is really interesting how much how quickly I can see a change from it. And I think it's I think for me, it's probably more just for me, I lose any residual like water puffiness or inflammation.

Melanie Avalon:
Not that I have like a ton of that anyways, but there's something about like just the pure protein that really does it for me. And then I think it also really helps with the fat burning mode like Alani was experiencing.

Melanie Avalon:
So although when I do it, I go, I'm like really simple, I'll eat like just chicken or just some steak. I love having my moments of like a big meal of just protein. It's so fun. It's like a fun time.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it definitely feels like a feast and you it's such nutrient dense food and it feels so aligned with I think the way that humans were meant to eat because it's like it's a really satisfying experience.

Vanessa Spina:
And I feel like I'd really discovered that since eating high protein meals, that it just feels so it feels so right. You know, like, I think back, you know, ancestrally how it makes sense that that's how, you know, we would have, you know, thrived or that we'd be the descendants of people who were hunting and, you know, gathering and basically like not eating for periods of time and then eating a big feast like that.

Vanessa Spina:
It just makes sense that that's sort of like the most satisfying thing to sit down to like a big meal, eat as much as you want until you're fully full and then feel done and then just not think about food.

Vanessa Spina:
That was such a revolutionary thing for me, you know, just learning and discovering that you can have a meal and be so satisfied for it that like you don't have any noise about food or that like voice of being hungry or the fear about going out and being hungry or anything like that just completely goes away and how much energy that takes away from you when you are thinking about food that you can just function like a normal human being.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was so like under eating protein for so many years that that voice was so ever present for me. The only time that I ever felt that quiet before was when we would have Thanksgiving. And that's when like I made the connection because like Thanksgiving is the only other time that I eat that much meat, like I eat that much turkey.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was like that's the same feeling. I have the feeling that I have at Thanksgiving where I'm like I don't want to look at food for like a while. And that's for me like food piece, food freedom where I'm like I can go do things.

Vanessa Spina:
I can go like live my life. I can go write a book or create programs or you know work on a podcast or a project I'm really passionate about or like work on meaningful things for me as opposed to devoting time and energy to like what am I going to eat later or when can I eat again.

Vanessa Spina:
Like and that's you know we have this protein stat in us and it just all aligns with the way I think we're really like supposed to be.

Melanie Avalon:
Exactly. And then like you said, when you do actually eat, you actually get to eat, you actually get to, you don't have to worry about like restricting and you feel so satiated. And actually, this actually relates to, because we were going to pick up from last episode we were going through, we were reading comments on this post about mistakes that people have made with intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
And I'll reread one of the comments, which it's about intuitive eating. But I was just thinking right now the different, because you were just talking about that feeling you get when you have like a piece of really nourishing meat, like how good it feels.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was just thinking about there's two really intense feelings I reflect on getting from food. So one is that feeling and I often get it if it's like when I'm breaking my fast and if I like break my fast with like a nice like piece of salmon or a steak, like you just get this feeling of like satiation and peace and calm and like it feels nourishing.

Melanie Avalon:
I also get a really, really intense feeling that also feels really, really good if I were to eat like funfetti cake or like something like that. The reason I'm talking about it is it's also like a really, really good feeling to exist in, but it doesn't feel satisfying.

Melanie Avalon:
And it feels like you're just going to keep wanting more and more and more, even though they're both feelings of liking and enjoying the experience that you're having. And the reason I think this is important for the intuitive eating piece, and I should probably read the person's comment, I will in a moment, but I think it speaks to why it can be hard to do quote intuitive eating with quote all the things, because so many foods are engineered to make you feel like high eating them.

Melanie Avalon:
So the intuitive thing to do in that moment is to keep eating it. Because that's literally what it's telling your brain to do. So I'll actually just read, I'll read the person's comment. What I'm saying is that it's really hard to have intuition when your intuition from an evolutionary perspective would actually tell you to keep doing the bad thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Like when your brain is being hijacked.

Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I have food that's been scientifically optimized to make it addictive.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, my point is like, because I feel like in the intuitive eating moment, they'll say like, if you can't have just like a little piece of cake, and this is not the intention, but the messaging that I've got sometimes is like, Oh, if you can't moderate, if you can't just have a little piece, then you're not intuitively eating.

Melanie Avalon:
And I'm like, well, maybe some people can do that. But for some people, telling them just to have a little bit and be intuitive about that and not want to keep eating it is just not. It's just not what's happening at that moment.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I wonder if it goes back to the abstainers versus moderators thing, you know, because I really believe there are people who can have like, one bite even, like on fetticake or, you know, dark chocolate or whatever it is, and just feel like, like I had one cookie, like I'm good.

Vanessa Spina:
But there are those of us who are maybe abstainers who, you know, that is just like impossible to imagine. Like one would only leave you wanting more. It's a quote. It's like, one bite is never enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like something about never enough and then something is about too many, right? Yeah, like never enough and too many. Yeah, I wish I could remember it. I mean, that sounds like a quote. One bite is never enough and too many.

Melanie Avalon:
If it's not, it is now. One text is too many and a thousand are never enough. That's talking about boys, but or girls.

Vanessa Spina:
One is too many and a thousand is never enough.

Melanie Avalon:
One drink is too many and a thousand is never enough. Yeah, one bite is too many and a thousand is never enough.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. I learned about this concept from Gretchen Rubin who I got to interview on my podcast. You should interview her sometime with you. You've had her on your podcast. Yeah. She's so amazing and she does low carb.

Vanessa Spina:
So we had so much fun. How did you connect with her?

Melanie Avalon:
originally.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't remember now. It was either on Instagram or Twitter, like on some social media, I think. I can find out and let you know. But she does low -carb. So she was also keen to talk to me about keto and stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
But she's the one I learned that concept from. And I really do think if you're a moderator, saying you can never have any is the torture in the same way that for an abstainer, having just a little bite is the same degree of torture.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's really hard for abstainers and moderators to fully understand each other because it's such an opposing way of being. But maybe if you're a moderator, you can intuitively eat. But I think for an abstainer, it's definitely a really hard concept.

Vanessa Spina:
And also because of the incredible point that you brought up, which is that it's really hard to eat intuitively when you're eating food that has actually been created in some cases in a lab to make you feel like one bite is never enough.

Vanessa Spina:
It's actually addictive and hijacking your brain in that moment. It's hijacking your dopamine receptors and it's creating this bliss point effect where it creates a super really high... So many units of dopamine are released that they go beyond anything natural.

Vanessa Spina:
And I learned this from Dr. Vera Tarmen. I'm interviewing her again, but she wrote some incredible research on processed food addiction. And she said there's certain units of dopamine our brains can handle.

Vanessa Spina:
Say you have an amazing moment in your life, like a birth or marriage or having sex. All these things have a certain upper limit of dopamine units where some of these foods go not just 100 or 200 units.

Vanessa Spina:
They go to like 400 or 500 units. And when you get that high, it creates this feeling that you then when you go back to baseline, you're now at a low. So you have to have more. It really creates an addictive response.

Vanessa Spina:
So how can you eat intuitively when you're eating food that's making you addicted to it? And for me, the last thing I'll say on this is I found intuitive eating when I tried the carnivore diet and I tried high protein because it was all whole foods like with nothing added.

Vanessa Spina:
And that's when I finally was able to feel that connection between like what my body actually needed and what I was giving it. And when I was done, where I find it impossible to do that with like these sort of franken foods and hyper processed foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, you literally said what I was about to say, which was, I'm so excited that you said that. Because I was thinking with Alani's question, it was almost like she was doing intuitive eating with what she found with the protein intake and everything.

Melanie Avalon:
To me, it kind of feels like for some people, like you just said, you can do this sort of intuitive eating once you're eating the foods that are actually sending the correct signals of satiety and everything and are not going to make you keep craving them.

Melanie Avalon:
Because then you can actually be intuitive and listen to when to stop. And another reason, so another reason they keep you hooked on them. So for example, Mark Shatsker, he wrote a book called The Dorito Effect and also the end of craving.

Melanie Avalon:
His thesis and the end of craving blew my mind. But he talks about how, and he might talk about the Dorito Effect as well, but basically not only do these foods taste so amazing and make us want to keep eating them and release and stimulate that super high dopamine response that Vanessa was talking about.

Melanie Avalon:
But they're devoid of nutrients, so our body gets super confused. Because normally in nature, foods that would taste good like that are attached to nutrients. So the body keeps craving because it's not getting any of the nutrients that it's needing on top of the fact that it's getting these super high dopamine responses that's creating an addictive pattern.

Melanie Avalon:
And then he talks about studies, and I wish they would do more studies on this, but he talks about studies where when people are basically given drinks that don't match, the calorie intake doesn't match the perceived energy level.

Melanie Avalon:
So because often we'll have like these junk foods that'll be also artificially sweetened or like partly artificially sweetened to like reduce the quote calories of them. In the studies that he references, when people have these drinks where there's a mismatch, like where they use some artificial sweeteners to reduce the calorie intake, they actually like their metabolism slows down.

Melanie Avalon:
Like they like don't burn the calories because the body freaks out because it doesn't know how to interpret the amount of calories coming in, not matching what it thinks there should be. And so it tells the body that there's like an uncertainty surrounding everything.

Melanie Avalon:
And so it puts the body into a, I don't, he literally talks about it. The people burn less calories when there's a mismatch, even if the thing they're eating has less calories. So you're like trying to quote, lose weight by having reduced calorie foods, but really you might be encouraging your body to burn less calories, which is just mind blowing to me.

Melanie Avalon:
So yes, you just can't win with these foods.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really, it's really such a good point. And you know, I, I'm all for intuitive eating. I just believe that for certain people, maybe for a lot of people, it can only truly, to me, the essence of it can only truly be practiced with whole foods.

Vanessa Spina:
Like it just can't be practiced with these foods that are unnatural or ultra processed. Like it's just never gonna, you're never going to get that feedback loop. That is like what you were just talking about where you're getting the right signals and then it's giving your body the right cues and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, I, I love the concept of eating intuitively. I feel like I eat intuitively now because I prioritize protein and I eat. My protein is a main component of my meals and that is the macronutrient.

Vanessa Spina:
I think that has the best feedback loop in the body in terms of satiety and everything. So, you know, I think that that should be a core component of anyone practicing intuitive eating. I think we have some questions.

Vanessa Spina:
Probably we're going to get to in the next episode about fasting and connecting that back to intuition and how you're feeling. And I think, I think that's a really important concept to, to apply to intermittent fasting or to, you know, any kind of lifestyle approach that you're doing.

Melanie Avalon:
100%. And I'll read the comment that we're talking about. So it was from Stephanie. Again, I posted a group asking what mistakes they made with intermittent fasting. I did want to read the rest and maybe next episode we can go through the rest of the comments.

Melanie Avalon:
But she said, there seems to be a trend in this post of a lot of people saying similar things. So perhaps this isn't the best approach for many people as from what I can see for many people it creates disordered eating.

Melanie Avalon:
If you just find a balanced diet, eat when you're hungry and listen to what your body is asking for and choose whole foods. So she does say choose whole foods. Your mind and body will be far more balanced than restricting and obsessing over a certain window or type of eating.

Melanie Avalon:
Following an intuitive eating approach I feel like is the most healthy way to find a healthy balance with food. I mean, I love a lot of what she says in there about, you know, choosing whole foods like we just talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
And I mean, the word I could go on hold soapbox about the word balanced diet. Like what does that even mean exactly? But I would interpret that as well. I think people don't know what does that mean?

Melanie Avalon:
It's a question. I feel like people often by that they mean like a mixed macro diet. I would use the word balanced diet as I would replace it with like a like a nutritious diet. So like a diet that's meeting all your nutritional needs.

Melanie Avalon:
I think is really important. That may be depending on where you're at. It may be lower carb lower fat. But I agree with what she says about, you know, listening to your body and eating when you're hungry and, and all of that.

Melanie Avalon:
But I don't think that because she talks about that's better than restricting and obsessing over a window or a type of eating. I do think some people, a lot of people having a restrict a quote restriction by having a window and quote obsessing but really it's just having rules in place about what you personally feel good eating or what you want to eat or don't want to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
I think some people can paint that as restriction and an obsession. But for others, it's just people have found the rules and boundaries that work for them and actually provide freedom. So it's kind of like, kind of like when we drive on the road, we have lanes that are rules and boundaries that you have to stay in.

Melanie Avalon:
And we don't say that that's being restrictive and obsessive. It's because that's actually that actually allows us to all drive safely and get to where we need to be going. It actually like provides freedom.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I was just going to say. I was like, we restrict ourselves from running into heavy traffic on a highway because it keeps us alive. So that the term restriction for some reason has such a negative connotation when it comes to nutrition.

Vanessa Spina:
Like you should not restrict yourself from anything. Like, no, you should restrict yourself from eating like trans fats and you should restrict yourself from eating oxidized oils and, you know, things that, you know, are really bad for you.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, having a set period of time in which you choose to give your body digestive rest and allow your body to assimilate and break down the food that you just ate without eating again, I think is just like common sense.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, and, you know, a lot of us like these days in our modern lives, it's hard to even not snack between like breakfast and lunch and lunch and dinner and then dinner and bed, right? Like, so, you know, there's like not snacking.

Vanessa Spina:
Which is really important. And then there's, you know, choosing perhaps to take a period of time in your day where you just allow yourself to be in the facet state instead of being in that fed state perpetually.

Vanessa Spina:
And I, I think it's a, it's just really interesting how whenever you apply the word restriction to eating, it's like, Oh no, don't restrict yourself. But if it comes to like highway traffic restrictions are really important.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's, it's a really important analogy. And I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm not sure why it is that like a lot of us feel like you don't ever want to restrict yourself from anything like that somehow limiting you in a way when it actually is, could be keeping you really healthy.

Melanie Avalon:
kind of like with people's jobs. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people working a nine to five job would rather be at the beach all day, but they restrict themselves and go into the office and do their job because in the end, they want more the benefits that they get from job security and financial security for their family and hopefully they do enjoy their job as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Like we're always making choices. There's always lots of things we can want to do all the time. We have to make conscious decisions and choices of what best serves me not just now, but in the long term.

Melanie Avalon:
And by doing something, you're not doing something else. So you're technically always restricting yourself from something in a way.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I was just going to say. It's restricting yourself from your employer being able to make you work on the weekend. That's another restriction, right? You restrict yourself from working once you leave the office.

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe we have smartphones, and that's kind of a great area. But in general, you restrict yourself from not working Saturday and Sunday, for example. That's a good thing. It's important for you to get rest.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, like mind blown, you're, it's restricting, but it's literally choosing something, which is like the opposite of restriction, like the literal opposite. Oh man, think about that for a second. Let that marinate.

Vanessa Spina:
So I was saying on the last episode that I had just interviewed Rob Wolf and he was very passionate in our interview about the word restriction and about how it's like the main critique that is used, I guess, against him a lot that, you know, that like his paleo diet is like too restrictive and he's like, I'm helping people like reverse autoimmune conditions here.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, why is this, you know, so he said he was going to, he was starting to push back a little bit on that because, and if you follow him on social media, he pushes back on a lot of stuff lately. But yeah, I totally get the comment and, and where you're coming from.

Vanessa Spina:
And I, I, I think that that's, you know, you definitely don't want to be in a position where you feel like you're obsessing. That's something that again, like I want to address in some of the other questions that we have specifically about fasting on the next episode, because there's a lot of questions about fasting, stressing the body, et cetera.

Vanessa Spina:
And I think, you know, you have to really check in with yourself and ask yourself, like, is this something that is making me feel like bad? Like, like you were saying in your comments, like if the idea of having an eating window, like gives you stress or makes it feel like you're being too restrictive, it may not be for you, right?

Vanessa Spina:
Like, I think that's an important consideration. Exactly.

Melanie Avalon:
as the theme of this podcast often is, you have to find what works for you. We're all individual. But thank you for the comments, Stephanie. I really appreciate it. And for the emojis, she included nice emojis in it.

Melanie Avalon:
We love the emojis. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. I can't wait to dive more into all of this next episode. And for listeners, you can submit your own questions to the show by emailing questions at iapodcast .com, or you can go to iapodcast .com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon:
You can also ask questions in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. The show notes for today's episode will be at iapodcast .com slash episode 369. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
So definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are iapodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa, where you can see her post, although this is a little bit in the future, so you might have to scroll back.

Melanie Avalon:
But the post of her hair without extensions is ketogenic girl. So, yep. Well, this has been so, so fabulous, Vanessa. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Sounds great. Talk to you next week. Bye 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Apr 07

Episode 364: Special Guest: Dane Johnson, The S.H.I.E.L.D. Program, Healing Crohn’s Colitis, IBS-C and IBS-D, Gut Health, Self Advocacy, Diet and Nutrition, Mindset, The Journey Of Recovery, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 364 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Blissy: Get cooling, comfortable, sustainable silk pillowcases to revolutionize your -sleep, skin, and hair! Once you get silk pillowcases, you will never look back! Get Blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.Com/ifpodcast, with the code ifpodcast for 30% off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

BLISSY: Get Blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.com/ifpodcast, with the code ifpodcast for 30% off!

Go to ifpodcast.com/shield and get a $400 supplement gift card when you sign up for the SHIELD Program!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #189 - Dr. Megan Rossi

Dane's poor health history

Being close to death early in age

CMV

Difficulty with prednisone

Getting into rest and digest

Meditation, prayer, journaling

Victim mindset

Reading inspirational books

Law of attraction

You don't have to be perfect

GI Map for SIBO and imbalances

Missing the important clues on standard tests

Leaky gut and loss of microbiome diversity

The liver's role

Food philosophy

Feeling unsafe in your body

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #27 - Nick Ortner

SHIELD Program

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 364 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. You are in for a super special treat today with today's episode with Dane Johnson, I think you all will find it so inspiring. This episode is honestly for anybody, anywhere, whoever has struggled with health issues. We talk about so many inspiring things. And for those of you who do suffer specifically from IBD, Crohn's, colitis, definitely check out Dane's program. You can get a completely free evaluation appointment if you qualify by going to ifpodcast .com slash shield. And then if you do qualify, and you do do that free appointment, and decide you do want to do the program, you will get a $400 supplement card with the program, which is awesome. You also get three months of coaching, lifetime support, so many things. After hearing Dane's story today, you'll really see how he completely changed his life and is changing so many other lives. And even if you don't technically have IBD or Crohn's or colitis, but just suffer from GI issues, IBS or actually any health issues. This episode is for you. It is so inspiring. We talk about so many things when it comes to reclaiming your health. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Now enjoy the show. Hi friends, welcome to episode 364 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I have a very special guest on today's show. I am just so excited about this conversation. I think it's going to help so many people. So the backstory on today's conversation, about a year ago now, I went to Dave Asprey's biohacking conference in Orlando, and I met the fabulous, amazing Erin Smith. I think I had known her through email a little bit because she works with a lot of really amazing people. But I met her in person. She works with slash represents a lot of really cool people and was like, you have to meet my friend Dane Johnson. He has this incredible story about reversing IBD and dealing with IBS. And he's just changing so many lives and just has this incredible energy to share with people. So I was like, yes, please let me meet him. And so since then we scheduled the show, I went and listened to some of Dane's interviews and friends. I'm just so excited to have this conversation now because I think everybody is in for a journey when they hear what he went through and what he's doing today changing so many lives. So today he's the founder and CEO of Crohn's Colitis Lifestyle. And he's also a board certified nutritionist, specializing in reversing Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. But Dane, well, first of all, thank you so much for being here. And like I said, I have listened to some of your interviews and it's having been in places myself with IBS and also with hospital stays and things like that. I really, really appreciate you sharing your story and everything that you've gone through to, you know, reverse what you went through. But I obviously can't put your story in words for me. So first of all, welcome. Second of all, what's your story? What happened? I mean, it's crazy. I'm like, so excited to hear it now from you, like in real time.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you. Thank you for having me and what an intro. Thank you, Mel. It's awesome to be here. Shout out to Erin. I've been with Erin for years. She's been a best friend and a connection to this industry and she's got that same excitement for what we're going to talk about today, guys. Yes, we need to get this out there about nutrition or biohacking or drainage or what's going on with the liver or cells or all these underlying issues that we're not hearing from our great, fabulous doctors in their own right. And so, yeah, she's amazing and I love working with her. Shout out to her and thank you for having me so much on here on episode 364. I'm going to bring the heat today, guys. Grab, you know, get pen and paper. If you know someone dealing with IBD, this is the moment I'm going to bring you as much value, as many to -dos, as much aha as I can at the time we have. I'm not going to hold back and I'm excited to help change lives. So I dedicate to you, to anyone out there who's chronically sick, who's stuck in that prison like I was, who feels like there's no answers, the biologics aren't working, the steroids aren't working, the antibiotics aren't working, doctors are talking about cutting out body parts. This... is dedicated to you, you're not alone.

Melanie Avalon:
some listeners might think, Oh, well, I don't have a technical diagnosis of IBD. I just want to share, this is really going to be for anybody who has experienced any sort of GI distress, just from, based on what I've listened from, you know, your story, just as a really quick random side note tangent. I was interviewing Dr. Megan Rosie a while ago. She's more in the plant -based sphere, but she works with gut health and digestion. And I learned, I think it was during that conversation, I learned that they actually have changed sort of recently, or when I interviewed her, it was recently the official criteria of IBS, which I thought was so, I find it really interesting how they even diagnose these things. Cause I realized I didn't technically qualify anymore because like I have a ton of digestive issues and have historically and deal with them through food and diet and lifestyle, but like now the criteria requires actual pain. And I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't actually have pain. So that's kind of like a tangent rabbit hole, but I find it really interesting, all the different labels and diagnoses and things. What are your thoughts on all of that for people?

Dane Johnson:
If you want to. go into conspiracy theory, maybe it's because we can't have 35% to 45% of the United States diagnosed with IBS because everyone is having these issues. At what point is it just, okay, everyone is having this? Why is there such an epidemic? And to your point about this isn't just IBS, IBD. I've worked with tons of people who are undiagnosed suffering. I'll give you one example. I worked with this guy, Steve. He worked at his father's business. He lived in Newport Beach, California, and he could not figure out what's wrong. 15 baboons today, 50 pounds under weight, no diagnosis, no inflammation, and just suffering. And we were able to get him off. And he was taking antidepressants because they would constipate him, not because of his mental issues. So that's how screwed in his case, he was just tied up like, I don't know what to do. This conversation is for anyone who wants to learn about how do I get happy and healthy at the same time and optimize my gut. And my story is going to help you with that. Because I was a good old boy from Virginia. I worked at Papa John's Pizza for four years. What do you think I ate five days a week? Making $5 .50 an hour. Okay, I worked Domino's, Papa John's Pizza. I ate fast food every day. I went to college and drank beer and ate whatever I could afford. We'd go to La Hacienda, like Mexican place, and just get the free chips and salsa with a cheese and tortilla queso, and it would cost three bucks, because I was broke, right? I mean, so that's when I started getting UC symptoms, and I was also really big in the gym, if you're someone who loves your GNC whey protein. I got to have 300 grams of protein a day to build muscle kind of guy. I can relate with that. If you're someone noticed thinking that your hormones might be off with gut health, I'll try to address that today. Everything is connected. The gut health, and I'd say, it's probably an argument on what is more important, both are extremely important, is also the liver. The liver and the gut have a lot of core issues that we can discuss today on how can we start to clean these? What are root causes? How do we find them? Should we invest in lab work? What's going on with food sensitivities? What is the microbiome? How do we start to build it? How do we know when it's getting better? How can I deal with things like constipation, diarrhea? What are some root issues that might be happening with that? So there's a lot we can discuss, and everyone with IBD, I want you to realize this in the connection. Just because you've been diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease or IBS doesn't mean you have an alien gut. You still have a normal human gut, and when you optimize a gut that has a diagnosis of IBD, you actually might get healthier than what a quote unquote normal person might see in their gut. there's a lot of words. Does that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
It does. And super inspiring. Basically, you know, if we are having these issues, it's an opportunity to, like you said, not only potentially reverse them, but to really, truly optimize your gut health. Yeah. Okay. I'm so excited. Can you dive into your story? I can't wait for you to start telling it. And I don't understand just having listened to your prior interviews. I don't know how you were doing it. Like I don't know how you were showing up on sets in the condition that you were in.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, yeah. And the last little thing on our tangent is my lab work looks better than everyone else's around me who are considered normal, who've never had a diagnosis. That's my point. My stool analysis, my urinalysis, my blood analysis, all of it, all of it. I look at normal people's quantitative PCR stool analysis and I find candida, I find Clostridia, I find dysbiotic bacteria, I find low stomach acid, I find fat malabsorption with no diagnosis. So that's what I'm saying, guys. It's for all of us. We're all together. IBD just means it got to a point where it's chronically inflamed, your immune system's freaking out, and now you're getting symptomatic. But there's a lot of people who are not symptomatic getting this symptom. So last tangent, let's jump in so people can understand about my experience. And as I said, the thing that really connects me is I never wanted this. I never wanted to be in natural medicine when I was younger. I was always entrepreneurial. I was always a hard worker, but I just wanted to eat what everyone else ate. I wanted to go where everyone else went. I didn't want to try to be this person who was restricting what I ate. I had a lot of problems being able to succeed in this. And the success came from a need, not a want, is the big point. So at 19 years old, I was going to College of Charleston in South Carolina, love Charleston, and I started getting blood in the stool. And the only thing I could think of is I was under a lot of stress with school. I had a breakup with a girlfriend at the time. And then I also was really getting into weightlifting. So I was having three to four protein shakes a day of stuff from GNC. And it was regular whey protein, which I came to find highly processed whey protein with a lot of additives, a lot of chemicals and sweeteners and different things that I think did affect my gut. And I started getting blood cramping pain as I calmed down on some of that protein. I calmed down on drinking alcohol. I calmed down on pizza that you have in college at 19 years old. I started noticing the symptoms did calm down. But by the time I was 23, it was kind of going on and off. I didn't I never heard of IBD. I never want to look at these problems. I wasn't one who wanted to go to the doctor. So I kind of put things off until I was about 23. And the reason is because at 23, I had started to have 12, 15, 18 bloody bowel movements a day. So I would go to the I would go. I mean, I was working in a lot of stress. Was it involved? I think a lot of us can connect with stress and symptoms. I was living in Washington, D .C., working a nine to five cubicle job, suit and tie, our commute there and back every day. I wasn't seeing friends. I was forty thousand dollars in debt from college. I was living on my dad's pullout couch, you know, trying to save money to pay off this debt. And I was kind of sad and miserable with it, but I was just willing to work hard. And I think my body started breaking down. But it looked like a crime scene and I didn't know what happened. And it was no longer, oh, I must have ate something off. And you kind of, you know, oh, you know, maybe it'll get better on its own. I think that's what we a lot of us do. It had gotten so bad that I had to start speaking about it. And I told my parents and then we went to the doctor and that's when they diagnosed me with ulcerative colitis at first.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow.

Dane Johnson:
That's terrifying. It was, too, because I'd never heard of it. And I didn't know what it was. And I remember sitting there, and I'm 22, 23 years old, and this doctor goes, yeah, you have ulcerative colitis. You're going to have this for the rest of your life. We need to start you on prednisone and mesalazine. So it's a 5 -ASA anti -inflammatory stomach coder along with cortisol steroid that helps knock out inflammation in your body. Long -term, terrible for you. A lot of problems with prednisone. But it can help knock out symptoms and make you feel like, oh, I'm going to be OK. But as you come off of it, it also has problems. So over the next few years, I just got more sick and more sick. So from 23 until I almost died of Crohn's colitis right around my birthday at 27 years old, it just got worse and worse and worse. So I just went through how everyone went through this. I used my insurance. I went to multiple doctors. We just did what they said. We even started reading about diets. So even while I was going on 6MP, Remicade, Intivio, anyone who's been chronically sick knows what I'm talking about. So these lifelong infusions of immunosuppressants and immunomodulators. So they usually put you on both, like an M urine and a Remicade or a 6MP or Intivio and you do both of them. Well, they were not effective. I was getting more sick on these drugs. I was getting terrible side effects. So I'm talking waking up in a pool of your own sweat, freezing, like you just jumped into the Atlantic Ocean in December. So, you know, sweats, headaches, pain, you know, three to four bowel movements a night, 15 bowel movements during the day. And then I started getting covered in cystic acne. And I didn't know what it was, but I was covered. My back, my chest, acne, I started losing weight. Today I walk around like 185, 190 pounds. And at my worst, I dropped to 120 pounds. So it was just like, you know, 23, 24, 25, getting worse and worse. And I had, God had blessed me with a career. I mean, when I was 22, I left that job. I took a one way ticket to California. I left this big job. I became a waiter in Los Angeles. You know, I left a big job with a 401k and, you know, a road to six figures. I left it all, became a waiter, got fired for my first waiter job. It made me laugh because I had a big job. And then they said, you couldn't cut it. You can't sell fish and wine, man. You're not good enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Would you get fired?

Dane Johnson:
for? I couldn't. I wasn't really good at reciting all the matchings of the wines with the different fish in Iran because I was working for reselling Oracle Software and they were begging me to stay because I was the youngest employee to get a promotion. I had gotten a raise in six months. I had asked for more money right out of college and my numbers performed best on the team reselling Oracle Software to the Department of Defense. They were excited. They wanted an IBM. There was another section was trying to get me. So I was, you know, barely my nose was up high, you know, and then I move. I say, no, I'm going to go live my life. This is my one time in life to go live and really just be myself is one of the happiest times in life. I just got diagnosed with UC. And then, you know, and I said, that's it. I got a chronic disease. I'm miserable out here. I got my degree. I got a year under my belt of office work and I got a resume, then get fired for my first waiter job. You know, when I moved to that, you know, hindsight, 2020, it did teach me a lot about my health. I'll get to. But, you know, I just was wanted out. I wanted I'm in California now. I'm living my own life. I've got like, you know, $4 ,000 to my name. And you know, I paid off a good portion of my debt for that year. I just put all my money towards the debt. But I just kept getting worse and worse. And you know, the 15 bound moments, the 20 bound movements, the chronic pain, so it felt like I was pooping glass and I started getting scared not to be around a bathroom. And as you said, Melanie, that made my story. We could take a whole, you know, hour on it. I want to trim it up for what's important for people to listen to. But God had blessed me with a career in acting and modeling. And I always thought maybe I could do it. So I went out there and I tried and I worked out it and shook hands and talked to people and figured things out. And I got signed with some of the biggest agencies in the world. And I started working with really good, clean commercial stuff like I was working for Nautica and Patagonia and Tommy Hilfinger. And I was working for, you know, Skechers and, you know, a lot of smiling young dad stuff as well. And so I was getting jobs like, oh, you got a job offer in Florida and Germany and Switzerland and Sweden. I'm going, this is all amazing, but I can't be without five minutes from a bathroom. And so that's a whole thing. And, you know, I was basically hiding it every once. So I didn't give up my career. I got booked for a 10 day job in Jamaica, OK, to shoot the Sandals Resort. Have you ever seen that commercial? I was one of the main guys in it where it's like a couple out on their vacation. So they paid for me to go out to Jamaica for 10 days. And I was on Prednisone. I had my mom actually had to wheelchair me to the airport. I mean, I was that bad. And when they saw me, I had lost 20 pounds from the casting. A month prior where they upset, they looked at me like, are you OK? You look a little skinny. I was just wearing baggy shirts. I told them, you know what I told them? I told them I was in Europe and Paris doing fashion shows and all that. And they wanted me skinny. I'm not kidding. It's a real story. And on set, we're shooting a commercial on set. I'm running off set into the jungle to take a crap and they're going, what's wrong? And I go, it must have been something I ate. I feel nauseous is what I told them. I mean, I am like double seven. I am hiding everything. I mean, and I did that for years. I mean, until one time I got booked just off my pictures, you know, because you get magazine pictures and commercials and one of my and I had agents all around the world and they called me and go, oh, this guy wants to build a fitness line around you and you're going to make all this money. It's going to be great. He just wants updated Polaroids on you. Well, I'm covered in acting. I'm 40 pounds lighter than my pictures. So my my and then I just I started just crying. I just lost it. I was in there with shout out to my booker at the time. My name was Chandra. I just thought my career was over. And it wasn't just about like the ego of like, I got this career. This is my one time to be a series regular or do all this. It was my freedom. It was that I could go off. I mean, it was one to my life. I was only going to be 20 something for so long. I was only going to have this experience one time. I wanted to live in California. I didn't want to go back to Virginia. So to get too sick was to give up my life in California and not have the money because I didn't come from a wealthy family where I would have to then just move back in with my mother and I did in Virginia. I didn't want to do that. So it was it was deeply like I had failed to let it go. And I just I I was I was a two faced person. I would put on this. I mean, I did a live on Good Day L .A. with Tommy Hilfinger himself. And I was literally losing vision as as I'm on the I'm on live television, you know, and and I weighed 142 pounds, six to in one of Tommy suits. He's like, you look good. I'm like, great. Thanks, Tommy. You know, and and so there was a lot of moments we could really go over that. Maybe one day, you know, I'll write all those stories. But it was like I was I was depressed, angry, anxious, hiding. You know, Marilyn Manson's makeup artist was working with me in Puerto Rico once. And I had to meet me two hours before set every day to to cover my body and makeup so they couldn't see all the acne. And I didn't fit. I didn't fit the clothes. So I kept trying to eat, but I couldn't gain weight. I was so upset. I was so angry And it was just getting worse. And then I was on set for uh doing uh, a show in same santa barbara For ug and then i'm literally shivering in a hot tub And i'm gonna tell you what the root causes we're gonna get to that. So i'm i'm cold sweats I cannot keep warm my vision's going in and out and i'm supposed to lead a fashion show with like all these executives around the world outside And i'm supposed to be like looking cool and fit, you know, and I go to the main um sierra I go to the art director. I've worked with them for six years, you know three times a year And and I said sierra. I I think I need to go to the hospital. I just told her I said look i've been pooping blood I'm underweight i'm shivering. I can hardly even stay awake She said don't worry about dane go and I was like blacking out as I was driving to the hospital I'm calling my mom. I I feel it was like worse than a dui I could not drive but I had to get to the hospital So i'm driving from santa barber back to l .a Because I gotta get back to where I kind of live and also i'm under sag after insurance Which really wasn't that good because I hadn't really built as much as had a lot going on as an actor yet at that point And so my insurance sucked and so I just drove straight I got stopped and got some emergency packets just to try to keep my brain working And I drove to the uh ucla clinic And then i'm there for like two hours, right two three hours and they're pumping me with morphine Which is like, you know, it's legalized heroin Basically, they're pumping me with morphine to help calm down the pain and calm down my body They put me in it But they're kind of keeping me in this chair and not move me into a room and then they come back and say look Your insurance doesn't cover you here in our er room So you're looking at a hundred thousand dollar bill of if you like eight to ten thousand dollars a day Depending on how long you need to stay. Do you want to stay and pay or you want to go? I said, you know bleepity bloop bloop bleep No Get me out of here They pulled me in an ambulance and sent me to cedar cyanide Two three hours later cedar cedar cyanide tells me the same thing your insurance isn't going to cover me So they sent me inland to a predominantly chinese hospital where I almost died And that was you know, so was suffering. I mean I was I was chronically sick and during that time I was I probably had already spent thirty thousand dollars on nash bat doctors I went to I flew out to mayo clinic So we would take we would fly out to different specialists and get a hotel room and pay for flights and food And then we'd go on google and read about supplements and diets and we'd go to whole foods and spend six seven hundred dollars You know, my sister was helping to pitch in and we were doing anything. I'd wake up My mom would be giving me almond milk and gluten -free cereal You know because that's what I lived on. I loved cereal when I was a kid So the big point in all this guys, you know, it you know when I bring it up, i'm kind of reliving it It makes me emotional But you know, I almost died in that hospital and it was intense and my whole family flew out You know if you ever seen someone interview, I kind of can feel the emotions rising up You kind of relive that trauma. My body doesn't want to remember it and that's why i'm so passionate about what I do now And i'm so convicted is i've been through it. I'm not a guy talking from an ivory tower I'm not someone who just is just in the books talking about the clinical. I live it. I breathe it I'm on the i'm on the field like a like a general I fight along with you guys. I really do this Yeah, my whole family flew out. I almost died in that hospital December 14th 2014. That was 10 years ago coming up And my mom actually helped save my life By calling all these different doctors and finding good for root issues We'll talk about you know Even like a ex -girlfriend had broken up had came and tried to help take care of me because it was like I mean it was it was really heart -wrenching like we had just broken up after three years Three months before I almost died. I mean talk about stress, right stress and energy has a lot to do with it I was on a feeding tube. I was on 200 milligrams of infused prednisone. I was on four antibiotics. I was on Intimio Intivio, I was on antiviral chemotherapy that actually saved my life That was eventually what we figured out I was on three grams of dilated and dilated is seven times stronger than morphine So if you ever taken morphine imagine 7x and then imagine the max dose of that So three grams of dilated is what you give to a cancer patient who's dying So I was floating. I was floating now. I don't remember a lot there. My mom says i'm talking to the window I i'm talking to my twin sister I don't have a twin sister, you know, I i'm saying crazy stuff I was stuck in that hospital bed for about 35 days and I lost the ability to walk because I went from a So at the at the show 35 days earlier at the show, I was about 178 180 pounds When I left the hospital about a week outside of the hospital when all that water retention from all the steroids started coming off I was 122 pounds that took about 45 days so about 45 days. I lost about 60 pounds And I didn't have and all the Skin on my feet was decaying off because of all the toxins in my body My body had nowhere to store it had no fat And I had such pain in my legs, but the muscles there was So if I got a massage the next day you ever had like severe muscle cramps from running 10 15 20 miles

Melanie Avalon:
I've had muscle cramps, not from running that many miles, but you can have some muscle cramps.

Dane Johnson:
You ever had like that muscle twitch up and you're like, Oh my God. You're like hitting your leg because it's twitching up on you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Oh, like the really, really pain, like the pure pain. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah. So that's how it felt kind of chronically for about an hour or two after any massage. Any movement in my body, it was, and then when I went to the bathroom still 10, 15 times a day, it felt like I was pooping glass and it felt like my colon was going to fall out of my anus. And so I'm 122 pounds. I look like a caveman. I've got a huge beard. I stink. My feet are like coming off. I'm in severe pain. You can't even give me a rub touch. And then I've lost really ability to talk because I can't listen to you. If you talk to me, I forgot what you say within half a second. I can't comprehend. I'm like brain dead, tongue sticking out, drooling, brain dead at this point. I've been on chemotherapy, Dilaudid, everything. And so even it took about a month for me to come back. So I was housebound for a year. The first month was just, you know, I couldn't watch. You ever seen the old Robin Hood cartoon movie? Yes. The conflict of that movie was too intense for me. So like, I couldn't handle any conflict, any kind of, there's a problem and we need to go fix the problem. So why? So I'm stuck on a couch. My sister is living with me. My mom and my sister are taking turns living with me to make sure I don't, you know, keel over. And I'm like, we cannot watch this. We watched Space Odyssey. Don't watch Lion King. No, I can't. I can't. I can't handle any, any conflict, like even dumb and dumber conflict. Like you didn't pay the gas man. Do you realize what you've done? I can't handle it. Like I need Space Odyssey. Tell me about Mars. That's it. Like you needed the Taylor Swift errors.

Melanie Avalon:
movie.

Dane Johnson:
My adrenals were so shocked, my nervous system was so shocked, I couldn't hear any conflict. The shock in my body was like, it was the strangest thing. I've never been there. But imagine being very stressed and watching a horror movie like, what am I doing? This is turn this off. It's kind of like that for everything. So yeah, it was hell and it was really hell and I fought my way back. And I remember when I almost was dying, it was like, I didn't really care anymore. I was just in pain and there was this one day I started just uncontrollably crying and it wasn't from the pain. I told the doctors it was from the pain. It was because my ex -girlfriend showed up. That was hard. When you get so sick and then you see how much people care for you, it's, ugh. So let me get myself back here. See when you relive it guys, that's the thing when you get on, you relive this stuff. It's really tough. So about a month, I started being able to move. Now, luckily, I had already in that four years from 23 to 27, I had decided I want to get natural medicine school. So I started looking at different natural medicine school. I looked at becoming a natural medicine doctor. I looked at the pros and cons. I talked to people who were already, you know, got their DO or DC or went and became acupuncturist or NDs. And I just looked at all this stuff because I knew I wanted to get involved in this. So I had already been practicing natural medicine for about a year, year and a half before I almost died. And that's why one of the reasons I was able to keep up in the shows and do all that is I did start seeing some results with diets and certain supplements and getting rid of certain toxins. I stopped drinking alcohol and I started working really closely with my naturopath professor. And so that kind of saved me until it exploded my face because I really didn't understand what I was doing to the level I do now. And so I know it's a long winded story, everybody. And I want to dive into being here to help you. You know, the big point is, is, you know, I spent a year rebuilding my 40 hours a week I was working, I was reading everything I could on functional medicine, I customized my own plan. I learned the assets of how to get real results and why I was failing before, which we can go over. And then about a year after that, I've been good sense. I've had some speed bumps, as I call them, where little things have happened, but nothing drastic. Nothing. That's I haven't taken a medication in 10 years. I have had no surgeries, despite every doctor telling me I had to get needed a full collect to me. And I work with people with surgeries. That's fine. We do fantastic results there. And we work with people with 40, you know, 40 years of Crohn's colitis. And I've been predominantly, I'd say 90 percent symptom free. I might have a little bit of something calm, loose stool, diarrhea, but no major issues, no major reactions. And I had a lot along the way. So as I got healthier, then I lived in New York City for three years and I had to figure out how to stay healthy without a bathroom around, without, you know, a lot of good clean air and being around EMFs all day long and not being home. You know, if you ever live in New York, Manhattan, you're not home from 8 a .m. till 10 p .m. That's just New York life. So there was a lot of trial and errors of how, you know, how to do all these things. I worked three jobs for three years in my 30s to build CCL. I built bootstrapped CCL. No, I never got a loan. I built it to be what I needed when I was chronically sick. And I've been viciously trying to figure out how to help the world with Crohn's and colitis and figure out what took me large amounts of money and large amounts of time and a lot of pain and suffering to figure out. Because if I had what I know now when I was that sick, I never would have got that sick.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, this is crazy.

Dane Johnson:
It's crazy. And so let's go back. I mean, one thing I want to give people about root issues I found, if I can give some people some value on that right now. When I was in the hospital, my mom was frantically calling every doctor I had ever met with trying to figure out why I wasn't getting better because antibiotics or prednisone had usually worked before. It wasn't working anymore. She called a doctor in Florida and this doctor, and I did colonoscopies with every doctor, right? Oh, you're in here. Let's do a colonoscopy. I was like, everyone's sticking some on my butt, right? I'm over that, right? I've done three. It actually just makes your microbiome worse. It disturbs the area. It can cause more issues with polyps. I mean, there's a lot going on with colonoscopies. I'm not saying they're bad, but there's a lot more than what's being discussed. And this one doctor said, in one of my samples, he found cytomega virus. Cytomega virus, CMV. He found CMV.

Melanie Avalon:
I had that too. That's so interesting.

Dane Johnson:
Oh, let's dive in. Okay. He said he believed that the CMV virus had taken over my body and my immune system could no longer control it. This also can happen to AIDS patients or cancer patients. Sometimes when you get chronically sick or the elders, like my grandpa didn't die. He had Alzheimer's. He didn't die of Alzheimer's. He died of pneumonia. His immune system couldn't protect himself from the pneumonia. Same thing happens with C. diff in the elderly's. What we see is that when a person's body gets so weak, these infections can kill them where other normal healthy people, it won't. My body had gotten so weak. It could be stress. It could be all these other things happening, but my body got so weak, it could no longer control the CMV. The CMV took over my body and that's why antibiotics weren't effective. That's why steroids weren't effective. That's why the antiviral chemotherapy saved my life. It started controlling the CMV. And then I woke up and I woke up. That's crazy. Isn't it? And then the doctors knew they called my whole family like he might not live the night. That's quote unquote what they told my mother. He might not survive the night. We don't know what to do. They didn't pick up the phone. Look, you guys are here for a reason. We need to be progressive. The worst mistake we ever did is delegate out our health. We need to be progressive about what is going on in our bodies. And I'm going to make that and through this whole podcast, I'm going to show that over and over again and prove it to you. We need to be the ones who know we need to be progressive and we need to be asking everyone more why and more what and more how. Don't just take someone's word for any of it. Because if my mom had made that call and done that, I'd be dead. On the other hand, if it wasn't for prednisone and TPN, I'd probably also be dead. So it's a combination of the natural, the functional, the conventional. You got to put it all together. That's what I've really done. During that year, I stayed on prednisone for a while and slowly tapered off. It was very hard for me to get off prednisone. When I was on 10, five milligrams, it took a long time. The doctor told me to just go 20, 10, zero. That was a mistake. If I go 20, 10, zero on prednisone, I'm back in a flare. I had to go 20, 17 and a half, 15, 12 and a half, 10, seven and a half, five, four, three, two, one, zero. That was that. My body was not addicted to it. And my body would freak. So that was my experience. This is not medical advice. So there's a lot going on there. So CMV was an issue. Now, once I started during that year, the biggest asset I had when I was stuck in housebun for a year is I had already decided that I was going to heal. I had already made up my mind that I could heal, that I would heal, and that I was going to use natural medicine, but I was also going to be open -minded enough to use conventional where I thought it could suit me. So the biggest shift I made in that year is I took the seat as the CEO of my health. Before, it was my GI doctor. We just followed what he or she said. And we got three or four GI doctors looking for them to serve as the CEO. Oh, Mayo Clinic, they're the best. We're just going to do what they tell us. Well, that didn't work. They were telling me food didn't matter. Same thing, cedar sign I said, same thing UCLA said. But if I did fasting, I saw the needle move. And I remember going to a doctor saying, hey, Doc, I had 20 bowel movements on average last week. I did some fasting. And then the day after I fast, I only had 10 bowel movements. Is there a correlation? Doc says not. Young idiotic sir, there's no correlation. Leave the thinking to me. have felt like that. And there was a correlation. It was an obvious correlation. And I'm not saying we all just need to fast for the answer. We can go over that, but we know the needle can move. If you see the needle get worse with stress, that means that the needle can move better with meditation and gratitude and love. If you see the needle get worse with processed food, that means the needle can get better with clean food. The law of relativity states for one thing to be true, its opposite must be true. And that is what I hung my hat on when I was sick as I knew I doubled down all chips in that I could affect my health. That I had a say and I was willing to do everything. Okay. So I'm going to give you some of my laws that I created in that year. Okay. I had a full time job. Get myself healthy. There's no failure. There's no quitting me. I almost died from this. I'm backed into a corner and you're going to hear a tiger start roaring. That's what I want to give you right now. You got to own this. I don't care if you're 16 right now, 18, 25, 40, you are the CEO of your health right now. I bestow it upon you. You're going to take full responsibility for everything that happens in your health, but you're also going to build your team. Okay. You drive the ship. Okay. It's not your fault. This happened to you, but it is for damn sure your responsibility. That was my biggest change right there. It's not my fault, Dane. I got to forgive myself that this happened. You're not supposed to be sick. Okay. Say this to yourself. I'm not supposed to be sick and it's not my fault that this happened and I am overwhelmed and I need a better team and I am willing to take responsibility and I love and accept myself anyways. Let's move forward. Start with the mind. First thing you got to do when I sat and I got that conviction. Okay. When you build conviction, you will act, the fog will start to clear. Okay. I've been in those shoes when you are sick and you need to get healthy, the fog will clear the moment you decide. I know it's crazy. It's divine energy. You got to get conviction. The energy of conviction needs to live in you because with conviction, certain answers become obvious. Watch this, Melanie. It's so obvious. When I got convicted, I came up with some laws that I never did for the years prior. I'm only going to eat what I cook. That's not hard. It's just hard to stick with with our lifestyles. I got so convicted and I was so sick and I was housebound that now that was going to be my truth. I don't know if I should be meat, plants, AIP, carnivore, SED, low FODMAP, vegan. I didn't know. I was in a very similar situation to you guys. I don't know, but I know that if I prepare everything that I eat, I'll learn quicker. I'll understand the variables better. It'll be cheaper because I also can't. work, it'll be cheaper and I'll be more likely to get better results. Here's the law. Here's the underlying law I want everyone to start with. If you're that sick or you really want to be convicted, if it can't hurt me and it can only help me, do it. That was my conviction. I mean, I'm talking. I was really screaming it from the mountaintop. If it can't hurt me and it can only help me, do it. So it just put away your shame. Prayer. I'm praying to God every morning and night. Why? Because it can't hurt me and it can only help me. It doesn't have to be, you know, the religious argument. Just give up that energy somewhere. Have a faith in something, right? And so I just decided to do that. Meditation can't hurt me. It can only help me. I didn't want to meditate. My match path professor was always telling me, you got to meditate. You got to meditate. Okay, fine. So I used to, then I started learning how to stack. So every, you know, every day I get an Epsom salt bath. I'd be reading a book and I do meditation and I knew I had engaged the parasympathetic nervous system when I started salivating. How do you know when you're in the rest and digest mode and you're signaling your cells to heal when you salivate? A lot of people don't know that. That's why when you're getting a really good massage, you're going to start drooling.

Melanie Avalon:
That's interesting. I've never heard that. Like ever.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, all these little hacks by Nd Tommy that I said you the man good one So that's one to know and that's another thing when you're meditating Actually, if you can start to try to get yourself salivating and you practice that you'll engage the parasympathetic Because that's the rest in digest mode when you're in the parasympathetic your body creates more digestive enzymes. Those enzymes lives in your saliva Your heart rate naturally goes down. You're not going to be able to salivate and have 120 your heart rate going at 120 per minute, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, yeah.

Dane Johnson:
Beats per minute. So the little things, like, and I also, I started figuring out how to make what I wanted feel good. That's layer two, let's keep going over the laws, okay? Only what I cook, I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna journal. It's obvious when you're convicted, five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the night, Dr. Dane's gonna see patient Dane twice a day, how'd you do? So I'm praying, you know, and I got my prayer from Jordan Rubin, if you're into IBS, IBD, and you should definitely be reading his books. His books helped save me, and I'll tell you, I was actually doing a one -on -one call with Jordan Rubin a month ago, and I manifested that, because I'm gonna pardon with the man. He helped save my life. His books were huge for me. And he had a prayer in there, and I just read it morning and night, in his book, The Maker's Diet. And he calls it, makers as in God, Jesus, The Maker's Diet, right? And a lot of his emotional spiritual really is what I connect to now, even more than the diet he puts in there. But I read that, I would then do aromatherapy, and then I would sit down and I'd journal about what was gonna go on. So how did my night go? And then how's my day gonna go? And when you journal and you hold accountability, you'll figure out, wow, I had way more bowel movements than I thought. I ate way more crap food than I thought. I had to wait more snacks than I thought. I didn't have enough water today. I really wasn't good on taking supplements. This is the accountability of it. And then if you're doing too much, you just gotta calm down on what you say you're gonna do day to day. You're just trying to do too much. So you gotta calm it down, because consistency is worth more than perfection. That's also layer two. I want you to be consistent more than perfect. You come and you listen to these podcasts, there's 5 ,000 things you can do. Calm it down and get consistent with what gives you ROI. So I'm gonna journal every day. I'm gonna eat what I cooked. I'm going to put on positive music. I refuse to watch dramatic killer movies. I'm not watching crazy intense aliens or Terminator or none of that. I'm watching comedies. I'm looking to laugh. I'm listening to Bob Morley. So another thing is I created my, I called it my I'm already healed. I'm already healed playlist. There's another hack. Create a playlist and put 20 songs in there that make you smile and make you wanna sing along. The trick is, is that you find yourself skipping a song, you have to delete it and replace it with a new song. You're always signaling happiness. You were telling yourselves, you were telling your body, I'm safe, I'm good, I'm happy. Another thing, especially when you're housebound or in a wheelchair or something like that, get stuff on your schedule. Every day I was booked. I'm gonna call my best friend from college. I'm gonna call my childhood friend. I'm gonna help this person out. Even though I was chronically sick, I could get on the phone and talk to someone about their relationships. I got positive energy. Hey, Rory, what's up, bro? Are you thinking, yeah, you guys doing well. You've been together for two years. How's it going? How you feeling? I'm not gonna just constantly talk to people about my problems. I wanna help people solve their problems. The more I condition being a problem solver, the more I'm gonna come back to my life and be a problem solver. Practice being a problem solver, okay? Another point on that, if you're gonna tell someone a problem, tell them a solution. That was big. For years, every day I talk to my mom, I tell her what was wrong. I tell her how angry I was. God smited me. I never deserved this. Why do I have to eat like this? Why is no one else dealing with this? Why am I the only one dealing with this? When I became CEO and I decided I was no longer going to allow myself to feel like a victim and feel sad, you gotta get rid of those feelings. And it's not like you can just change it in your mind. You have to condition it. We could literally stay here for two hours because everyone listening, you have to condition. It's like a workout. You don't live for biceps one day. It's every day that that muscle is gonna grow. It's the same thing with positive thinking and about getting rid of depression, anxiety, worry, doubt, fear, resentment, all that happens when you're chronically sick. It's a vicious cycle. So you just gotta start being healthy before you actually feel healthy. Being is what you're doing in the present moment. Eckhart Tolle, read it. So that's why I love reading, okay? So you gotta feel good. You gotta practice the feeling good. So I'm not gonna watch it. I'm gonna listen to Bob Marley. Luckily I lived in Southern California. Doors are open, sun's in. I found other things. What makes me feel good? I started gardening. at 24, 25 years old. old. Like today I still take care of 80 plants. I'm growing tomatoes, I'm growing cucumbers, spinach, basil, you know, I'm growing strawberries, I'm picking it. Today my son was helping me plant some chamomile and some cilantro yesterday because it gets us outside, it gets us hands in the dirt, it gets our feet in the ground. So it feels good. Like I can do that at home. Another huge hack, reading. People don't realize this, okay? If you're listening to this in your car right now, you can do multiple things while you're listening. But if you're reading a book, you have to be present with reading the book. Meaning if you listen about cognitive issues, 90% of our thoughts out of the 40 ,000 thoughts we have a day, last time I read on the stats, 40 ,000 thoughts a day, 90% are the same thoughts on repeat. If you're reading a book on health, on manifestation, on positive vibration, on letting go of pain, anger, anxiety, doubt, fear, you know, I'm going to die, all this. If you're reading that, you can't think about your problems and read that book at the same time. You'll lose your place. So that's where I said, oh my God, this is brilliant. Just the act of reading is replacing my thoughts with this brilliant author's thoughts. If you hire Tony Robbins one -on -one, it's going to cost you a million to $2 million. But his book, five bucks, it's his voice. Let his voice sink into your spirit 20 minutes a day. Dr. Susan Blum, Eckert Tolle, right? Joe Dispenza, one of the best books I read on mental and all this manifestation, Dr. Joe Dispenza, Breaking the Habit of Being Myself. That headline literally says what we're talking about now. You have to recondition how you think the positivity. And it's a condition just like the gym. If you lay off of it, you're going to start getting those negative thoughts because it is impossible to cure a bad day or any disease because all energy can come and go. I'm feeling bad. I got diarrhea. I got a headache. I got bleeding gums again. I got acne again. It comes and goes. Energy comes and goes. None of it's eradicated. Cure means eradicated. So life is about a conditioning of balance. The body is a balance. So we have to get back in balance with our body. And that's a repetition. That's a consistency. So journal, positive energy. Learn how to identify negative energy. One thing is I talk to people who get me all angry and upset and it'd make me worse. I'd have more symptoms when I was upset. I know everyone listening feels the same. You get stressed, you get more symptoms. So when you're around negative energy, you need to learn how to either A, get away from it, or change that negative energy. You got to manipulate energy. When I was chronically sick, walking around with a cane, 135 pounds, trying to rebuild myself, I was fierce. There is no negative energy allowed around me. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it. And if I was around it, I couldn't just yell at someone because I'm being negative and angry. I realized this with my mom. She's telling me what to do. I start screaming at her. I know what I'm doing because I almost died. And I started getting shooting pain as I start arguing with her on the phone. And that's what changed my mind that every day when I talk to my mom, I'm just going to tell her what's good. I'm not going to keep telling her I still have blood. I'm going to tell her that the blood is 30% down. You get the difference? Hey, how are you feeling, Dane? Oh, I still have blood. No, that's negative. And that's stressful. My blood's 30% down from two weeks ago. I'm winning. I'm happy. I'm there. If I can get a 30% down, I can get a 70. Mom, this is what I'm excited about. Every mom listening right now wishes their son or daughter would be like that. Everyone listening for the significant other wants the positive energy creates positive energy. Stop enrolling people and enrolling people in what's wrong and start enrolling them in what's right. Because it's the law of attraction. You keep telling people things are going to happen. It's more likely to happen. That's read the law of attraction, the secret. It's an energy. If you want to stop feeling bad, you've got to start acting in ways that create a spark for positive feelings. Feelings are emotions, energy in motion. Your spirit has these feelings that can be changed based on experience, not just thought you can't talk yourself out of feeling bad. So I can go on tangents all day about the mind, but it really is the biggest thing for long -term success when you're on that battlefield. You start there, and then you have to start building what I call your daily blueprint. What is your plan? You've got to get balance because when you say you're going to take these supplements or eat this way, it's emotionally taxing. It's very difficult. When you're going to intermittent fast and do a 12 -hour or 15 -hour schedule, it's emotionally taxing. You have to condition yourself with it. Is that not true, Melanie? When you tried fasting, was it much harder then than it is now, emotionally?

Melanie Avalon:
Definitely. Now it's just second nature.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, and so, but it's a conditioning. The first few times you did it, and you probably talk about it with people, that it's tough. And that you have to find that positive energy elsewhere. Okay, and we can go on tangents about that. I'll say one with food. I had to replace the desire for gluten and processed foods with the desire of freedom. It's a replacement, it's not a sacrifice. See, if we invest $100 instead of buying those new sneakers, what is the positive energy? I am investing in my financial freedom moving forward instead of the immediate sneaker. Same with food. I am investing on getting back to my shape, getting rid of this bloating, getting rid of these skin issues, getting rid of these migraines, getting a clear mind, getting natural energy. I don't need three cups of coffee a day. Being confident and happy in my own body, and not needing to use a restroom, not worried about stool, not worried about inflammation. And that means more to me than anything. And so every time I eat that healthy food, I'm just investing in that freedom. And then I give myself, you did this, Dane, so now let's go get some sun. Now let's go out and hang out with our friends. My goal was not to be able to add back in gluten. My goal was to be able to go out to a restaurant and see my buddies, even if I'm not eating what they're eating. Or go to a bar, even if I'm not drinking. I just wanted to be free. I was stuck to a bathroom. So what are you investing in? What is your desire? Forget the fear. What are you gonna get out of this? What are you gonna give yourself that you're excited about? That needs to be part of your daily blueprint. What you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, make sure you can be consistent with it. I'd rather you do less and be consistent than try to do too much that's overwhelming you. As you get better at this, you're gonna naturally want to stack. Melanie, as you practice, have you found that you can handle more protocol, do more biohacking, read more books, and ask yourself to do more in your day to day.

Melanie Avalon:
Definitely. And also a quick comment to that. I definitely went through a, because you were talking earlier about how, you know, trying all these different things and this idea of, you know, if it can't hurt, it can only help, then you do it. I had the struggle or the experience of like feeling like I needed to try all the things. So even if I thought it couldn't hurt and could only help, I got overwhelmed with thinking I had to do all these things to be getting better. So I had a really interesting evolution of trying to do all the things and feeling like I had to do all the things to like letting go of some of that. And then finally coming back to a place where now the way I see it is I do the things that I know enhance my life, but I tell myself I don't need them. Like I don't have to be doing them. It's like a mindset shift that has really helped me personally.

Dane Johnson:
Beautifully said because you're you change the fear to a desire exactly yeah, so everyone write this down get rid of I need and replace it with I want.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I love that.

Dane Johnson:
no longer. If you ever hear yourself, even today, I still catch myself. If I ever come out and say, man, I really need, I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, I really want.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So that's something, yeah, that you do.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, because its need is an anxiety. I need more money. I need to get more time. I need to get a babysitter for these kids. I need to find more sleep. I need more time for my friends. It's all anxiety. Watch this. I want to find a babysitter with the children and be in balance with it. I want to be able to hang out with my friends and make sense of that time balance. I want to have more time that I can meditate and be with myself. I want to have more time with my wife. It opens up a how. It opens up a question. It's conversational. It brings credence to the date night. If you tell yourself another what you need, all they're hearing you is complain. If you tell them what you want, you're opening up a conversation for brainstorming. So desire, lead with desire, not fear is huge for me. And one of my first e -books I wrote, one of the chapters was, don't be surprised if you catch me eating a burger and fries. And it was because I had to break free of this idea that I had to be this perfect. It was one of my biggest fears when I really became an IBD specialist is I had to be this perfect eater that never did anything wrong. And I'm like, straight edge is all because that's what's expected of me. And it wasn't, you know, for me, I actually, this is way down the road for you guys, but I want you to be able to eat whatever you want. I want you to want to eat well and not poison yourself. So that's the thing. I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want. But I rarely ever choose to poison myself. That's true for people with IBD or regular gut health. If you're having, you gotta, it's a conditioning. So when you get educated about food and you get educated about processed foods and convenience taxes found in anything that you have to open, a wrapper you have to open, there's a convenience tax, I call it. And a convenience tax means if it's easy and it's made simplified, you don't have to cook it, there's something that's gonna tax your body. The latest research is gonna tell you something someone's gonna come out and finally say, oh, nope, that package has this. It's in everything, okay, it's a convenience tax. So when you can change that, but I wanna really dive into some of the like really big takeaway physical things people could start utilizing. Because I know maybe for you and I, Melanie, this stuff really hits home because it's so big for the growth. It's like for me, I just say it's like church. It reignites my spirit, it reignites my why. It gets me excited, it connects me with the community. I wanna work with you guys. I want you to win and me to win because I want our team to grow. I wanna be able to see you and talk about, hey, what solutions have you found and what place? I imagine a network in the future where no matter what town or city we go into, we have people working on creating good restaurants with no seed oils and no processed foods and no glyphosate and building conscious companies around these solutions. I wanna pardon with people who are inspired like this. Those are the friends I wanna be around. Those are the people I wanna go to dinner with. I'm interested in what you have to say. You know, I wanna be inspired by you. I only wanna be influenced by people who are happier or healthier than me. Not richer, not more Instagram followers. I don't give two craps about that. I wanna be around people who are happy and healthy. You know, those are the two things I look for. And so, you know, here are the things that I found. So when I got out and I started looking deep diving into functional medicine, I've been working in functional medicine about 10 years, and I've worked with a few thousand people with Crohn's and colitis. We put out a testimony of completely reversing people's symptoms once a week. That's how much we do this. We only see Crohn's colitis. We see about 130 clients a week with Crohn's colitis, and we see people all around the world. We have testimonies in Africa. Our youngest testimony is six years old. I've worked with a three -year -old. Our oldest testimony is 67 with 42 years of Crohn's, five surgeries. Yeah, we do it all. This is what we do. Everyone on our team, all our coaches and practitioners have Crohn's colitis themselves. So we live it, we breathe it, we own it, and we customize it. We work with vegans, we work with meat eaters, we work with people who AIP, we work with people whose goal is to be able to eat whatever they want again, whatever it is. You've got to decide what your North Star is, right? And so here are the things, the big things I found physically and the functional side of things that were really big problems that the doctors at Cedars -Sinai, UCLA, Mayo Clinic never mentioned to me, okay? The biggest one that you can get ROI on is a quantitative, just to start with, is a quantitative PCR stool analysis. I like to use the GI map. Some people will use Genova, a gut zoomer by Vibrant America, GI 360. There's a lot of them out there. And they're all pretty similar with a little differences, little color changes. But when I did that, I found large amounts of H. pylori. H. pylori is a bacteria that can cause low stomach acid, can cause ulcerations, can cause bleeding, can also be linked with SIBO because when you have low stomach acid, you're more likely to get bacteria overgrowth and fungal overgrowth, especially in the small intestine. And that can have a cascade of problems. So as you go over this, guys, remember that the body, it works like in a big circular motion. It's a moving circular motion and one thing gets off, it causes a cascade effect. So as symptoms, you could go, oh, I'm overwhelmed, I have so many symptoms, but once you fix one thing in that circle, usually a lot of things get better. So everything tends to get better or everything tends to get worse, you know? And so that was an upstream problem for me, was no one had ever told me I had a large amount. Now when I tested H. pylori and did a stool antigen chest at the conventional doctor, it had tested negative because they can only find what's called mid E to the fourth or greater, okay? Well, the PCR had showed about low E to the fourth. So it was coming up negative with the doctor's technology, but it was coming up positive with the PCR technology through functional labs. And also H. pylori, and this is deeper level understanding, is that it can be in biofilms, it can also burrow in the gut, so it can be hidden in your body and actually have much larger levels. Found H. pylori, I found large amounts of candida that was linked, in my opinion, to the skin issues, one of the problems with the skin. Why was I breaking out an acne everywhere? I was bathing in Neutrogena, you know? And today, with all the people who have helped with their skin issues, I could literally run a Neutrogena ad with all the skin I've cleared, working on the liver and the microbiome and the hormones and the food, right? And so I found large amounts of candida. I had a young, I'll give you a quick case on that, I had a young man in LA, and he had the best PPO insurance, he had a great job, multi -six figures, he was on prednisone, he was on biologics, 20 bloody bowel movements a day, about to get his colon removed because the steroids and biologics weren't working, doctors didn't know what to do. He starts working with me, I do a stool test on him, and I immediately find four times the normal threshold of candida, right there in an at -home, non -invasive stool test. And you gotta remember, just like mold or viruses, look at COVID, some of us, we don't have responses to it. We're freaking out to it. One person's in the R room from COVID, one person, no problem. It's the same thing with candida, it's the same thing with mold, it's the same thing with parasites, it's the same thing with all these things. I had a three -year -old with massive amounts of gliotoxin, we got rid of the gliotoxin mold, her gee, I heard calprotectin went normal. So that's the thing is a lot of times it could just be that you have a massive infection and no one's looking at it or no one's seeing it and the lab's insurance companies aren't really covering it. And most of the time, I don't know about you guys out there, but the doctors aren't running these tests. And even when they run a test, they don't go over the test with you, they just go, yep, nope, we didn't see anything. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, show me the test. That's what a functional doctor's also gonna do with you. They're gonna interpret and show it for you. And for me, I wanna actually train you on the ABCs of lab tests, so you can do them yourself whenever you want. Because we can actually order you a lab test in Dubai, Canada, America. We can do Australia all over the world. We can get you a stool test and you can order it on your own wholesale price. That's something we do. So, you know, that you can see. You can see, you know, pancreatic enzymes that can give you an idea of low stomach acid. You can see fat malabsorption. You can see zonulin for leaky gut. You can see dysbiosis. You can see really bad infections like campylobacter, Giardia, C. diff, toxin A or toxin B. So it's not a perfect test, but a lot of times I can just find obvious stuff right there. And anyone out there, I definitely look at, if you wanna invest in your health and you haven't done a stool analysis, it's a really good place to go. If you're on a budget, then I'd first work with a coach and build a plan, do that for a couple of months, then spend money on labs. Because labs are expensive if insurance doesn't cover them. Insurance doesn't cover most functional lab tests unless you have a really, really great doctor who's really cool and hip, but still very rare. And so that was, I found H. pylori. I found candida, the cytomegalovirus. Now the cytomegalovirus was the biggest one because that's what was killing me. So when I calmed that down, now I just had really bad IBD, but I wasn't life -threatening. So now I had the star, I started working on candida. I started working on the H. pylori. I had very low short -chain fatty acids, butyric acid. I had very low beneficial bacteria. I had very low stomach acid. I also found, later on, I found parasites. I tested positive for blastocystis hominis and cyclospora, I also tested positive for, so I had to work on parasites. Another problem that my skin was telling me that I later found out is I had severe drainage issues. My liver was so backed up. I had very low bioproduction. My lymphatic system wasn't working, especially when you're bed rested and you don't move. That's some of the vicious cycle. Because you get so sick and you don't move, well, your lymphatic system tends to work better when you're jumping up and down, or you're walking, or you're exercising, or you're sweating. Okay, so that gets the lymph to move, or pressure, like H -bot, hyperbaric oxygen chamber can also help that pressure or scuba diving can help push toxins out of the lymph, which also can help with anxiety, PTSD, or migraines. So a lot of times it could be a lymph issue, or it could be magnesium, salt issue as well. So you start to see all these problems. So, you know, I'm 30, $40 ,000 into this. I've gone to every major doctor, and no one showed any of that. No one found any of that, or even talked to that, or even looked for it. So that was really the big thing I want to say is there's so much underlying. And I want to say this is a big point, Melanie, and for everyone listening on this. When you get diagnosed with a disease, and someone says it's incurable and we don't know what causes it, and then you just look at the actual mechanics of the gut, you start to see that it's not just a root cause you're looking for, it's root causes, it's root issues. And no matter what disease you're looking at, specifically with autoimmune, I mean, I specialize in Crohn's class, so I'm specifically talking about that, but any autoimmune disease, nine times out of 10, I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar, if we look deeply at your systems, we're going to find problems. Here are the top problems we're going to find. Beyond the pathogen infections we just talked about, that's a core problem driving autoimmune, but here are other basic fundamental problems of how your body is not working, like an engine. With autoimmune disease, I am finding commonly low stomach acid. Commonly, you are not breaking down food well. And guess what that stomach acid's doing? It's also helping to kill off bacteria and parasites and other infections that are now going unchecked into the rest of your GI. It's also causing problems with food sensitivity. Why is it, Melanie, most of us grew up, we were fine with bread, we were fine with a little bit of milk, we were fine with a little bit of peanuts, we were fine with a little bit of eggs, now we're all sensitive to it. We're not allergic, most of us were sensitive. See, I'm not allergic to those foods, but I couldn't tolerate any of it. Now, I could, my gut is strong enough that I could go eat an entire large Papa John's pizza pizza and my gut would be fine. Is it good for me? No, but my strength of my digestion, my microbiome, my gut lining, it can handle that damage, that poison. Before, I couldn't have a sip of water without a bloody bowel movement. So with low stomach acid, that's also affecting, it's part of the equation where we're getting more sensitive to food. Why is it dairy and gluten are the big two? Besides the glyphosate in the process and the A2 casein and the gliadin increase, The gliadin protein and the casein and lactose protein are the hardest to digest proteins. They're very dense. When you have low stomach acid, those are the type of foods that are gonna go unchecked through the stomach acid. So now you have partially digested proteins sitting in your small intestine that now need to be evacuated through the colon, causing more gas, more diarrhea, more cramping, and it's damaging your villi in your gut lining. So imagine all these little particles around your gut lining. Remember, your gut is 28 feet long. So it doesn't matter if you have IBD or not, that's a problem for all of us. As those undigested proteins go and try to be absorbed through the gut lining, they're big, they're dense, they're not supposed to be there. The gut then breaks itself apart to allow that to be pushed through, or it poops it out and that's where you get really nasty smelling gas and bowel movements and diarrhea, but it goes into the gut lining and that's why a lot of us are noticing derious causing acne. Because it's inflammatory, it's not being properly digested, and it's seeping into the bloodstream. And then it's backing up the liver because the liver is cleaning the blood. I can't remember exactly how many times, but I think, don't quote me on this, you guys can check online, but I think the liver cleans about 200 gallons of blood a day, something like that. So you've got all that. And then now you got damage to the gut lining where there's a cytokine reaction and then the mucosal membrane is also being weakened. So it's causing a downstream problem. So you've got to think upstream. So digestion is a big problem. Microbiome diversity. We're not eating from farms. Everything we eat has glyphosate. Glyphosate is destroying the microbiome. The more diverse the microbiome, it's already been clinically showing, the less likely COVID is gonna be a problem, the less likely food sensitivity is gonna be a problem, the less likely autoimmune is gonna be an issue. We're losing our diversity. And with the loss of diversity, we then can't control the bacteria causing SIBO. We can't control the fungus causing mold issues and other candida issues and fungal issues. So we're losing control of our environment, much like the forest, okay? So we need that diversity in there. The microbiome in the soil and the microbiome in the gut are very similar. We're losing the diversity in the soil and it's destroying our food on the planet and we're losing the diversity in our gut, it's destroying our gut. See the connection to the earth? We're human organisms. So microbiome diversity is a big problem. Second is that leaky gut. So that gut lining being inflamed in a weak mucosa membrane. So that's causing more downstream problems for everyone. Meaning, just because you don't have IBD or IBS doesn't mean you don't have leaky gut. So what is leaky gut? As those tight junctions and that gut lining are being weakened, destroyed, the membrane that separates the gut lining from the bloodstream is being winged out. It doesn't have the proper food, right? Like butyrate, probiotics, phosphatidylcholine are three foods for the gut lining. And since it's getting weakened out, the villi are then getting damaged and the villi get worse at absorbing nutrients. Right behind the villi is all of your cytokines. So the dendritic cells live there, the T cells live there. And that's where you're getting autoimmune disease because they cause the pro -inflammatory interleukin -6, interleukin -1 beta, TNF alpha, and IL -12, IL -23, all those cytokines start living right behind the gut. That's why they say the immune system lives in the gut. So right behind that damaged gut lining in the mucous membrane is all those cytokines, all that immune system. So now they're firing and firing. And that is connected, in my opinion, in my belief, with all autoimmune disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, diabetes, Crohn's colitis, of course, all these different forms, okay? So that's a core problem for all of us is the gut lining is not strong, the microbiome diversity, the digestion. Next is the liver. Almost all of us have a backed up liver. It is a core problem. I think Sinclair, she's doing a great job on this. She's really opening up. A lot of people are really opening up on this. But what's happening is our liver is getting overwhelmed with all these toxins. We're breathing in toxins, we're drinking toxins, we're eating toxins. As our liver gets backed up, we can't create bile. Bile is how the liver cleans itself. It attaches all the toxins to the bile and then dumps them into the duatum at the top of your GI tract, then to be disposed. So a lot of times with so much toxins, the duatum is at the top of your GI. So that means the toxins have to go through 28 feet of the GI tract to be exposed through the bile. They're getting reabsorbed into the body. They're not even getting properly dumped because the liver's overwhelmed and there's not enough bile production. There's not enough pancreatic enzymes. And we're cutting out our gallbladder is also a problem. Okay, and so the liver as it gets overwhelmed, we can't create glutathione. It causes more constipation. It causes digestion problems. Because without bile, you can't break down fats and you can't properly absorb your fat solubles. Vitamin A, D, K, E. Those are your fat syllables. So now, what's gonna happen? You're gonna see hormone issues. Okay, you're gonna see omega -3 to omega -6 issues. You're gonna see inflammation issues. You're gonna see cognitive function issues. Because if you can't properly utilize your fats, your brain's not gonna work. Your body's not gonna work. Your hormones are gonna work. It's a cascade. So liver, liver's a massive problem, especially if you believe that you have parasite issues or mold issues. Those two are gunk. It's like tar in the liver. Okay, and that's why people are allowed to talk about Castoril packs and coffee enemas and Nacetyl cysteine and tudka as a biosalt and bitters to help your body move and produce more bile. So there's so much going on in there. And even as you start dumping that out, and a lot of us, even if we're on a specific diet, we have these other core issues where the diet's not enough. Melanie, how many times have you talked to someone on a strict diet, but they're still having problems?

Melanie Avalon:
A lot.

Dane Johnson:
a lot, right? And so that's the thing is diet itself is only one stage. The whole point of diet is to reduce, you want to get rid of the toxins, right? The best thing you do with diet is defensive, get rid of the toxins, get rid of the inflammatory stuff. Okay? So the two things I want you to focus on with diet, whether you're plant, meat, whatever, the goal of it is it has to reduce or eliminate an inflammatory response from eating. So you're not getting an inflammatory response from the food you're eating. And number two is it needs to be bioavailable. Those are the two cardinal rules. I call it food philosophy. So in the shield program, what we do is we actually free you from a diet and we build a lifestyle that makes you happy and healthy. That's our mission statement with food, no diets. We build a lifestyle that makes you happy and healthy food philosophy. Food philosophy is measured by being able to have the self -empowerment to look at any plate of food and measure your ability to handle it. So can I look at that plate of food and assess its risk? So I coined that as I started trying to open up my diet because I couldn't have grains. And then I got scared of phytic acid, and arsenic, and Dave Asprey is making me scared of everything. And so I'm going back and saying, no, no, I have a normal gut. I want to prove it. I should be able to handle a bowl of oatmeal. That was my mission statement. It wasn't oatmeal is bad. I'm never going to eat it again. It was, I want a normal gut and a normal gut should be able to eat any of these foods properly prepared from the earth. So I should be able to handle an almond. I should be able to handle quinoa. I should be able to handle a red bell pepper and a tomato. Even though Gundry's got me scared of that. So it's like you look at all these diets and I'm telling you guys, this is how I've worked it out is my goal is to be able to eat whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want, but I need to use food philosophy to assess its risk. And I need to be strategic about can I really handle it and is it really causing a problem? And that's where lab work and all that comes in. But the stronger your microbiome, the stronger your digestion, the stronger your mucosa membrane, the more healthy your liver, your gallbladder, all those things. And the better you prepare the food without all the inflammatory stuff, you're going to be back to mother Teresa. You're going to be with the Italians, baby, having a good time. Give me whatever. Okay. Make it up, chop it up. It's all good, right? Get rid of all the nasty stuff. So, you know, that's my mission for you. I want to see, I want to desire that. I don't want to be scared of food. How many of you guys are done being scared of food? I want to be able to eat food from the earth. And I just assess, was it cooked in canola oil or soybean oil? I go to every restaurant. They're all cooking in trash. Where'd you get this chicken? Was it just fed corn its entire life and completely stressed out and given steroids to grow? And I mean, same with the fish. I mean, there's a lot of problems here. So, for me, it's not about just plant versus meat. It's the quality of the food and how it's prepared. That's the big thing we all need to get on the same page with. That's where you really start looking at what are the mechanics going on in the body. And you also, when you want to become a Jedi. So, if you're going, Dane, you've given me so much. I'm overwhelmed already. This is for that 10% who already know a lot of this stuff or are getting excited about it and want to take it to the next level. Here's the next level. You've got to change your relationship with how you feel about being a sick person. People who are chronically fasting and chronically on these diets, there's this deep feeling of also unsafety. Like, if you don't do it, you don't feel safe in your body anymore. You start to feel this inflammation. There's this lack of safety. I felt that about 18 months ago, I really started addressing that. And it's gotten better, but I still don't feel fully safe. To be completely transparent, I still don't feel fully, fully safe in my body. But from 18 months ago, I'd say it's about 60% better. you I'm sitting in Tahiti and I don't really have any symptoms, but I still feel like if I don't do all these things or take all these supplements to do that, that I'm not safe, that I'll be hurt again. Right, Mel? You get that, right? Now, me and Mel could probably just talk about this for hours because this is where we're probably at, so I want to give you some of what you're looking forward to. We have to re -trigger the relationship at a cellular level with our body of how we feel, feelings, like really address feeling. It's okay that you feel unsafe, but why? And start doing that. So, that's where I started doing EMDR, hypnosis, EFT are my three favorite. I think German New Medicine is cool, too. People have gotten results with it. I just think these are a little bit more, I don't know, there's more science behind it, more people are doing it. It's more broad. German New Medicine is more about tactics for IBD, but EFT tapping is emotional freedom technique. So, I meet with an EFT mental health specialist usually once a week, once every two weeks, and I'll tap on why do I not feel safe? I'll tap on why is this food thing? I'll tap on I'm going to, you know, whatever I'm scared of, or I just had a newborn baby, like my son is two months old and I'm freaking out over here, right? I'm tapping. So, from the lack of sleep and write that, so we're starting to release energy. Remember, that feelings are an energy. It's not physical. So, can you change the way you feel with just physical? Meaning my lab work, my supplements, my diet, my fasting, that's physical. You have to start opening up to the energetic side of it. You have to realize that energy actually transforms into physical. I'm stressed, turns into more bowel movements, right? Well, I'm at peace. I'm in love. I'm conditioning myself to let myself feel safe. Okay? And I'll do this right now for 10 seconds right now. I want everyone just to breathe for a second. And I want you just to try to feel the feeling. Just try to get the feeling of safety. Just practice right now. Feel it. Forget your truth or your reality. I'm safe. Imagine with all your best friends, it's the middle of the day, the sun is shining, you don't have to be anywhere, you're not worried about money, your job, you're not worried about what's on your plate, you're just here and you're safe. Feel that goodness. Just practice. Let it smile. Put a smile on your face because you can. Feel. Feel safe. If you've got that feeling right now, feel it, become aware of it, hold onto it and come back to me. We can change a feeling not just based on what we think reality is but because we choose it. You have to choose to wake up and condition a new reality and that's what hypnosis is helping with and that's what eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing is helping with and that's what emotional freedom technique is helping with. There's a signal at a cellular level that actually becomes physical. We need to send the signal to ourselves that we're safe, that we've arrived, that we're not meant to be sick and that we're okay and that needs to be conditioned and the more sick and the more suffering you've gone through, the harder it will be but you'll probably end up being a superhero for the world coming on and helping people like Melanie's doing. Usually the more suffering, the more superpowers and just realize that it's a balance. Let go of the idea that it's okay not to feel safe in a moment because in a moment in your life you're going to feel angry, you're going to feel lost, you're going to feel lonely. There's no way you're not. You can't eradicate those feelings. You will feel them again. You will feel like you're not as healthy as you want. It will happen. Just expect it. Make friends with it. It's okay. You can't eradicate any energy. There's going to be a day where you feel like you're not doing as well with your health. It's going to be a day where you feel like you're not doing as well with your marriage or your girlfriend or what's in the mirror. It's going to be a day you're not going to be doing as well with your food. That is called life. It's supposed to be there. The answer is balance. Can you feel it? Can you be okay with it and can you rebalance yourself? Winners win because of their best at rebalancing, not because they're the best at not feeling. The best winners in the world still feel loneliness. They still feel sick. They still feel off. They still feel like they're failing. It's their ability to respond to it that makes them winners. So again, the goal is not to eradicate anything. The goal is to respond. Can you stay in balance? If you stay in balance, you'll continue more often than not, send a chemical signal to your cells that you are safe and that you are okay. And your parasympathetic nervous system will engage. And studies show that when there's less stress, which is an energy, that there's less chance of cancer, there's less chance of disease, there's more likelihood of better microbiome diversity, there's more likelihood of better digestion, there's more likelihood that you're gonna stay married, there's more likelihood you're gonna have the best life. So whatever it is, the Jedi moment here is keep practicing the feeling, safety, happiness, love, gratitude. And that, when I bring it back, is why I decided to pray, because it changed the signal. Hope that helps.

Melanie Avalon:
I would say yes. That was amazing. Thank you so much. So have no fear, everybody. The show notes will have a full transcript of all of this. So what you were talking about with reading, people can actually go and read this and take it in and only take in that information at the moment. I'll also put a link. You mentioned tapping. I've had Nick Ortner on the show, I think twice. So I'll put links to that if you want to learn more about tapping as well. So how can people work with you and what resources do you have?

Dane Johnson:
You can check us out check out also the show note in the links. I'll send it to Melanie where you'll be able to apply for a strategy session to talk to our team about your case so we want to put our best foot forward for you. Are our plan is the shield program that stands for supplements herbs imagination exercise lifestyle and diet. We will build you a customized plan we will train you on these things we will train you on labs and protocol nutrition and customizing what you're gonna eat what you're gonna take and why you'll be part of a community. You have full access to talk with anyone in our community our community is free governing so we don't restrict you talk with other members on their results and we have different threads for moms and dads and people in india or europe or australia or people who you know are doing surgeries or fish a lizard fishers you name it. The show program also includes three months of private coaching with your ibd coach who specializes in this has the these themselves and only sees krone's colitis or ibs something around that nature 90% are a form of ibd so that can include microscopic colitis lymphocytic colitis and colitis you name it and so we really are our impact driven company. And when you come in you'll apply for a complimentary strategy session to talk with one of our sports specialist who also have ibd themselves i love our team i'll talk with either becky or kelly or erica or lindsay and all of them actually have. Had some form of ibd since they were teenagers in the role in their late twenties and early thirties or fifteen years of experience with this surgeries by logic you name it so we immediately want to put you on a phone with someone who can relate with you connect with you and really help you feel supported cuz i would've done anything to talk with someone who had krone's colitis when i was sick. And just you know how they started getting their life back and so you'll be able to do that and see if the shield program is right for you and if. And you can also see us on instagram krone's colitis underscore lifestyle calm or YouTube youtube .com slash krone's lifestyle me dane johnson one if you want to say hello to me and let me know you came from Melanie. You know if you click the link in the below will know you came from Melanie because we want to support you, we want to support Melanie and just know like you know. That money took this time and introduced me to you guys i want to build integrity and trust with you and so that will be the show program and we have other other values that you can do and you can work with us so just reach out to us let us know what you need and we will have a solution for you.

Melanie Avalon:
So again, these show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast .com slash episode 364. And that's where we will put links to everything that we talked about. All those resources will be there. Goodness, this was just so incredible. I really can't thank you enough, Dane, for everything that you're doing. And it's interesting because I remember when I had my own like rock bottom with health issues and I mean, I was not in the hospital for 35 days, but I was there for three days and it was not fun. And I remember thinking, I was like someday, well, I remember thinking two things. I remember thinking, I'll know I'm like on the up and up when I'm taking pictures again in public. Like when I'm at a restaurant and I have like pictures of me there with the family or like when I'm on social media again, because I was like so scared of like the world and like me and everything that was happening. So I had that moment. And then I had the moment thinking like someday I'll be grateful this happened to me like not right now, but someday. And I can truly say that now because I wouldn't be doing everything I I'm doing if I hadn't gone through those health challenges and hearing your story. I'm just so grateful for what you're doing. And sounds like you also wouldn't be doing everything that you know you're doing if you hadn't gone through that as well. So I'm just so grateful for you sharing your story and what you're doing. And it's incredible. I look forward to everything else that you have coming.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'll give you one that I was super grateful for. The day I could pee without having a bowel movement was like the biggest, oh my God, to like go into the stall and not have to like shamefully like run in there and release whatever is coming out. Like, you know, was so, oh my God. It was like, oh, I'm back. Thank God. Yeah, I'm grateful. And thank you for having me, Melanie. I mean, you put this together and you're the one who's putting the work in to create this, create this environment for us to grow and learn together. I just want, you know, I want to grow forward with trust and integrity. I want to serve people in Crohn's colitis. I want to do much bigger than even what we're talking about. We're going to build the most empowered Crohn's colitis community globally. We have big ideas. I want to create a win -win scenario for us. I am driven on impact, you know, connect this, whatever you need, please click the link in the show notes. We know you came from Melanie because we want to also support Melanie in that. And yeah, we're just here for you. And we know it's tough, but you're going to get everything you need to get real results coaching. We can get lab work around the world. Also EFT. I didn't mention this, Melanie. I actually just hired my EFT coach to come and do a free EFT session for a whole community once a week. So every week you can just jump on and do a live with her and she taps on everything, fear, optimism, doubt, worry, anger, and she does Q and A as well. And she's awesome. She has also colitis herself for 15 years. And then we have an ND who meets every week to go over like training on supplements and like stacks for constipation or different problems. So that's another thing we're adding is we're adding professors who just come on and do lives beyond your private coach. So we are thinking and we can ship supplements all around the world. You know, we're just doing big things and we're just really excited. And if you have IBD reach out, we want to, I know there's a lot of crap and craziness out there, but integrity and trust, that's what we focus on and we try to do our very best. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much, Dane. And so for listeners, Dane has an incredible generous gift for you guys. So if you think that this program is applicable to you, you can go to ifpodcast .com slash shield. And then when you go there, you'll fill out some intake forms. And if you qualify for the program, you will get a free intake session. And you said, how long is that session, Dane?

Dane Johnson:
usually about 45 minutes to an hour, you'll talk with your IBD sports specialist who also has had IBD and recovered from IBD and be able to talk to you about your case complimentary.

Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. And then if that resonates and you're fit and you actually do the program, then you also get a $400 supplement gift card as well to go with the program, which is amazing. And then Dane was telling me that the program includes three months of private coaching, and it's also a lifetime membership. Anything else you'd like to share about the program?

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, the biggest thing is we're building what we needed when we were chronically sick and it's about impact. That's the number one thing is we know you need a coach, you need a private coach, someone who specializes in IBD. You can really help customize your plan and how it's working and all the ebbs and flows. And we want it to be a one -stop shop. So yeah, you get $400 gift card included. So if we tell you to take a supplement, we're going to be paying for it already. So we want you to feel really good integrity with what you're getting and why. And you'll be getting free access to my live trainings every week. You get free access to EFT tapping with Rachel Turner every week. And you can talk to the whole community forever on your mobile or your desktop, all other members with IBD. It's a one of a kind where I think you're really going to be excited about it. We hope you take a look if you have IBD and you need support.

Melanie Avalon:
So amazing. I'm excited. So again, so listeners, the link for that is ifpodcast .com slash shield. So definitely check that out for that incredible generous gift. Dane, thank you so much. This was so amazing. I know we've like had this on the book for months and months. So it was so wonderful and beautiful to finally connect with you. And I'm just so excited to see everything, everything that you continue to do in the world. I can't thank you enough.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you for having me, Melanie. Amazing conversation. God bless. I hope everyone learned a ton today and let's move forward with positivity, optimism, integrity, and let's change the world. Thank you for having me. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Apr 01

Episode 363: Day Trips, Fasted Traveling, Cold Exposure, Sports Performance, Bloating, Low FODMAP Diets, Carnivore Diet, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 363 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

MD LOGIC: Upgrade your gut health and well-being with MD Logic Health’s Dr.'s Choice Probiotic. Packed with Lactobacilli, Bifidobacteria strains, it's designed to support your gastrointestinal, immune health and much more. Dr.'s Choice Probiotic is tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all problematic filters, and comes in a glass bottle! Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

Go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference and use code BCMelanie for 30% off the 10th Annual Biohacking Conference Tickets. Ends March 31st (drops to 25% after that) 

Intermittent Fasting: Does It Affect Sports Performance? A Systematic Review

Metabolic Switching: An Intermittent Fasting Revolution with Dr. Mark Mattson - Part 1

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - What foods/supplements WON’T break a fast?

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Episode 354: Special Guest: Dave Asprey, Cold Plunges, Dopamine Fasting, Spermidine, Follistatin Gene Therapy, Sex, Fertility, And More!

Episode 358: Special Guest: Dave Asprey, Coffee, Minerals, Adrenal Fatigue, Wine, Coffee Enemas, Coffee Shops, Traveling, And More!

Listener Q&A: Xenia - My doctor told me to stop 16:8 IF when I had serious bloating issue... (then Emily said why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet, it is a lifestyle and once you see all the benefits you won't want to stop and Sacy said In my experience, bloating was food related. Think carbs like pasta, bread, chips. Tweak the food.

FOOD SENSE GUIDEGet Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Episode 347: Special Guest: Vince Ojeda, Gut Health, Food Sensitivities, Food Allergies, Dysbiosis, Fasting Mimicking, Elimination Protocols, IgG, IgE, IgE4, IgM, CD3, Food Antigens, And More!

Go To Victus88.Com And Use The Discount Code MELANIEAVALON For $55 Off Victus88 Testing!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 363 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 363 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing wonderfully. How are you? I'm good. I had a meeting where I thought about you so much. Like, it was like a Vanessa meeting. Like, you needed to be there to experience it, I will tell you. Yeah, I don't know. We're currently designing packaging for my spirulina supplement. I know why you're talking about me. So I really just want to make the packaging like vibrant and beautiful and eye -catching, and, you know, all the things. So the design call meeting, it was like me and Scott, our partner at Empty Logic, and then like the whole design team. And so I had gathered like a lot of pictures of inspiration for like colors and, you know, the vibe I was feeling. And I found this picture of a mermaid. So for listeners, I just texted this mermaid to Vanessa so she can see it while I tell her the story. Did it come through?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah, that's beautiful.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so I saw this picture and the reason I love this mermaid is because because I want to make like a lot of supplements in the spirulina line like a spirulina and chlorella and a blend so I was like oh we can use like part of these colors for one we can use part of the mermaid colors for the other and we can kind of do all the colors for the blend and in my head before the meeting I was like I mean I would like to just do the mermaid honestly on the package but that's too I can't do mermaid like what who am I kidding so then we get on the phone call I like bring up this mermaid I'm like talking about the colors and then Scott Scott makes a comment I made like a throwaway comment like I would love to just have the mermaid like haha jokey jokey and then Scott was like well Starbucks is a mermaid and you know that does fine I was like oh door open you're right so then I was like the funny thing about the call was so Scott and I are like team mermaid the whole rest of the team they're like not no I'm not feeling it I kept being like these colors but like can we have the mermaid and then Scott Scott knew the team would like not really be down with it so he was trying to like hint at it without like really supporting it so he'd be like you know Melanie how do you feel about the mermaid and like we just kept like dancing around the mermaid like people and like Scott and I weren't sure like I wasn't sure if Scott really wanted the mermaid and Scott wasn't really sure like if I seriously wanted the mermaid but we were like trying to read each other out and we kind of thought we were on the same page so it was just like this whole thing about like the mermaid and isn't the mermaid amazing yes cuz cuz on the call they're like we can't do the mermaid I'm like what but can we do the mermaid are they gonna do the mermaid so now I've just decided that we have to do the mermaid like I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make this mermaid happen I've named her essence so beautiful do you know do you have like the artists and everything well that's the thing that was half the call we're like who created this mermaid and because I am because the name of the file is like a lot of numbers and I googled that and I couldn't find the original file but then I went through my initial like it was months ago but I was like I'm gonna find this mermaid so I tried to Google but I originally googled and I tried to like click on the pictures I had clicked on cuz you know like you click on the pictures and then it gives you more pictures and you click on the pictures it gives you more pictures so I sound it that way like going through the tunnel of Google Images it's AI and did you know that AI artwork cannot be copyrighted

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because Pete my husband's been using it a lot to make graphics for his articles And I'm like so you own this right like it's basically yours. We were just talking about this at dinner I was like, I'm pretty sure that that it's just yours. You can just use it

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like you can just use it but nobody owns it so like anybody can use it.

Vanessa Spina:
Right. So that's kind of like someone else could could take it and do it as well. But that's like, pretty low risk.

Melanie Avalon:
So I found the Etsy store that was selling like the high -res version and I was messaging them and I was I was like I don't want to like give off any flags. I was like, how do I like message and be like, is this copyrighted? I was like so worried. I was gonna do that. They were gonna like take it down and like Copyright it. Yeah, so fun fact ai artwork No copyrights. There might be a mermaid in the future somewhere

Vanessa Spina:
You know, it's funny because when I first opened the image, I was wondering if it was AI just because we were like looking at AI images over dinner that my husband was making. So it's like, yeah, it totally looks

Melanie Avalon:
that way. Did he find some programs that he likes online for that?

Vanessa Spina:
He's using something. I'm not sure what I, when I do it, it does a similar result and I'm using Canva, like there's a plug -in in Canva for it. This whole world of AI is... You would love this. I've been doing it with Luca, so like I did this only a couple times, like I was sitting on the couch with him and I was like, what do you want to see? And he was like, a rainbow choo -choo train by the river in Prague. So like we did that and it made a rainbow choo -choo train in Prague. You know, so we just like, we went through like three or four different pictures and he would just tell me whatever he wanted to see and it would, you know, make the image. So it was really with him. Yeah, I thought of you and I was like, Melanie would love this.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm smiling so much. That's like a whole other level of raising children, you know?

Vanessa Spina:
He's gonna grow up with this just being a thing like he just speaks into existence whatever he wants and it's there

Melanie Avalon:
Whoa. That's crazy. Oh my goodness. I love that. Well, on that note, anything new in your life? That's my mermaid update.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean mostly just baby life like everything is baby life. We're going to Spain next Sunday for a couple weeks because my parents are there so every year they come and spend some time in Spain and we go there and you know it's such a great place for kids like there's so many playgrounds. Every morning we just get up go to a playground there's usually a boardwalk by the beach there's so many different beaches and stuff there and there's always playgrounds like some have like big pirate ships and all kinds of stuff so Luca's really excited to see his grandparents to go on the airplane he's going to have his own seat like he just talks about it every single day how excited he is to go there and we're excited just to get some like nice weather like it started to be spring here but it's going to be a lot warmer and like have some beach days and stuff so it'll be really fun to go there for a couple weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
You know what's really interesting about that is with the playgrounds thing. So when you say that I immediately get so many memories to playgrounds. When I was growing up, they're all the playgrounds we would go to in Europe.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, that's funny. Yeah, there's there's a lot. I mean, I'm sure Germany is similar, you know, to Spain and Prague, there's a playground, like on every corner, there's just so many, it's endless, which is really great when you have little, little kids.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just getting so many memories. Like the playgrounds, they're like sturdy. They're like magical and they're like sturdy.

Vanessa Spina:
super colorful like there's this one that we go to in Spain that's just rainbow like it's total rainbow and every every part of it is a different you know rainbow color and Luca loves running around and saying all the colors names and yeah it's it's really fun so I'm really excited to get some travel in it's been a while since we went anywhere because I haven't been able to travel for a while so I'm excited for that.

Melanie Avalon:
Right, and you're the little travel bee.

Vanessa Spina:
Speaking of which, we said we were going to talk about your trip to London, so...

Melanie Avalon:
did it. And long story short for listeners, true story. So I supposed to go to London for like, how many days, three days or four days. I ended up, I went to Thanksgiving dinner, I came home. So I literally went for like a dinner.

Vanessa Spina:
It's, this is the most Melanie thing I've ever heard. I love it. And I know you did it twice, and then you were like, this is my new thing. I'm just gonna go places for a day.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm all about it. I'm all about it. Like I can do anything for a day. And you know, I have these moments. I mean, I know I'm an adult and I know I've been an adult for a while, which is weird. But like, you know, you have these moments where like, oh, I'm an adult. I had that moment. I like got back from the Thanksgiving dinner, which was fabulous. I went to see Charlotte Fox Weber. She's a guest. I found the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. I adore her. In any case, I went for a Thanksgiving party. So I like went to the party. I got back to my hotel that night and I was sitting in the hotel lobby and I was just so I had like a blast. But like I wanted to get back to work like I, I didn't want to like just like hang out in London for a few days by myself and not be working. So I was sitting in the lobby like probably like one or two am and I was like, Wait a minute. Because the first I was like, I'm still gonna be here for a few days. I was like, Wait a minute, I can fly back tomorrow. Like I can do that. Like I can change my flight. I can leave this hotel. I felt so adult. That's amazing. And so I did. And that's when I got COVID. Yeah, I felt so bad for you. You were so sick. Yeah, so it was a fun time. And now I do the Monday trips. Now I've done quite a few of them. And they're more to come.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so freeing, you know, I mean, we talk a lot about on this podcast about finding the thing that works for you, you know, trying different things, knowing yourself. And that's just like such a perfect example of it. Cause you know, in the past you may have said no to trips cause you didn't want to do all the travel or be gone for a long time. But now that, you know, you can just go for a day, like opens up this whole world of possibilities for

Melanie Avalon:
travel for you. It's amazing. And then I want to slowly, like, extend the days that I'm there, but, you know, work on that aspect. But, yeah, because people think what's bothering me is, like, the travel part or, you know, the travel part. But I'm like, no, the travel part's fine. It's like being away from—I just don't feel good with, like, my food and my digestion and my sleep and all of that for multiple days, but I can suck it up for a day.

Vanessa Spina:
It's a part of travel. I mean, a lot of people I you probably so many people listening to this have the experience of when their travel like they just don't go to the bathroom for like several days and stuff like, which is why for me, I always take magnesium citrate with me the magnesium calm, because like that usually doesn't happen for me, but if it does, like I'm not concerned, but so many people, I'll talk to they'll be like, Yeah, I went to Mexico and I like didn't go to the bathroom for a week. Like, oh my god.

Melanie Avalon:
So that freaks me out, like it freaks me out.

Vanessa Spina:
But it's such a common thing that when people travel, it like, you know, you're eating different foods, you're in different environments, there's different bacteria, like, it does affect most people's digestion, some people not at all, or just a little bit, and some people a lot. So you're not the only person, like, it's a very common part of traffic.

Melanie Avalon:
And actually, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I did want to talk about something for the listeners related to it. I was thinking a lot of the bowel movement issues are about it messing up your circadian rhythm with the travel because so much of that is tied to your circadian rhythm. I hadn't done an international trip since I've been fasting, so this was my first international trip with fasting. I didn't really have any jet lag. I implemented my theory I've been talking about for so long but hadn't personally implemented. I mean, I do it domestically, but that's only a few hours difference. I did it for this trip, and I don't want to say zero jet lag, but I don't remember having any jet lag. So basically, my protocol was I just ate my... So I do a one meal a day with a later meal, like a dinner meal. So the night before traveling, because I had a late night flight out, I stayed up super late, like more later than normal, had a massive meal like normal, slept in really late, went to the airport on the night flight, and then I just fasted the whole flight over. And then when I got to London, it was the morning. By the time I got to my hotel, it was the afternoon. I still didn't eat, so I was still fasted, and I just fasted till dinner. And then at dinnertime, I had an early dinner, and then I went to bed, and then it was completely normal the next day. And then on the way back, I did the same thing. I just did my normal dinner before the flight, and then I flew home the next morning, and then I fasted the whole flight, and then I ate dinner when I got back, and then I was completely normal the next day. Like zero. Besides the actual day landing there, where I was a little bit tired, there was zero jet lag. That's it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's great. That's what I always do. I usually fast on flying because it's easy. It's easy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and you can use your meals as an anchor, basically, to sync up your circadian rhythm to the new time zone. So if your body is accustomed to thinking, I eat this at this time, I eat this at dinner, I eat this at breakfast, I eat this at lunch, then it automatically, when you eat that meal again in that time zone, in that time zone's time for that meal, it just syncs you up. So, yeah, team fasting for jet lag.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I mean, my biggest thing for jet lag is just as soon as I land, say I land in Europe, is getting outside and getting as much light on myself as possible and going for a long walk. And I think that that's probably been helpful because it is helping you sync up with the wavelengths of light at that time of day, which is then triggering different hormones, you know, and helping you, you know, make melatonin more later and helping you with all that. So, yeah, that I think the light and the meals are two of the biggest things you can do to really help. I think that's

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing, yes. And then my little hack that I have discovered, I don't know if I told you this, but one of the things I miss the most with travel is my cooling mattress. Like I have to have my cooling mattress. Have I told you my solution to this? No. Because you can't travel with a cooling mattress, but here's what you do. Are you ready? I love this so much. So you go, I always go to Whole Foods, which they, it is so nice that there's Whole Foods in Europe. I was like, oh, I feel like I'm at home.

Vanessa Spina:
The whole thing I do, if I go to Austin, I go to Whole Foods. If I go to London, I go to Whole Foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Although it's like different in the European whole foods. I was like, stuff is like different here, but in any case. So I always get the, they have like the whole foods brand leader glass bottles of water. So I always stock up on that water because that's why I drink at home. And then if I travel, I stock up on it to drink there. But if you get a mini fridge in the hotel room, keep the water in the mini fridge. And then at night when you're sleeping, you get out one of those really cold waters and you kind of cuddle it like it's a stuffed animal and like it keeps you really cold. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. And then you come out. So like, so you cuddle it and you want to get it by your like core so that it's like cooling you down. And then, you know, if you wake up like a few hours and it's warm, you just swap it out with a new cold, cold one and cuddle it again.

Vanessa Spina:
That's amazing. I mean, most people cuddle with a hot water bottle and you go with an ice cold bottle of water. I love it. Like you're such a cold girl. It's really in your DNA. Do you think it's in your DNA or do you think it's something that you have like trained yourself because you know all the benefits of cold?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, like growing up like in high school and like I would always like I love the heat and I love tanning and but I also was always hot like my mom would always be like, wear a coat and be like, I'm fine. I like feeling not inflamed, which is why the cold makes me feel. So I don't know. That's a good question. How about you?

Vanessa Spina:
For me, I definitely have trained myself. Like I never liked being cold growing up. I think it's because I under ate protein. But now I'm the person I was the person who was always cold. I think I was under eating calories a lot and I was under eating protein. And now I'm the person who's always too warm. Like I walking around in t shirts. It's not that warm here, but it's been we've been getting a little bit of spring sun and I've been out in t shirts. We went ice skating. Last weekend, we took Luca for the first time and I was in a t shirt the whole time. You know, and I love that. Like I love the feeling of the cold air, but I have made myself deliberately more cold adapted. And I also love that I've made myself cold adapted because I feel like it's a superpower that I'd much rather be wanting to, you know, cool off and to enjoy cold exposure, especially because I know how beneficial it is. You know, in the morning I go outside and stand in the sun or do some grounding and it's freezing cold, but it feels amazing to me. And I much prefer that to when I was a teenager, you know, we did a ton of winter sports and I was always freezing. Like I was always cold and resisting the cold, you know, and not enjoying it. Whereas now, you know, I love it and I love that you can make yourself more cold adapted. So I'm one of those people who will make myself learn to love and embrace things because I know that they're good for me. And I think that that's like, it's kind of a cool thing to be able to do, but it's definitely, it's probably in our DNA, you know, but we like moved away from it towards comfort for so long. And then when you realize that it's better to embrace these things, then maybe you go back more to like how we're originally optimized.

Melanie Avalon:
is for? I think, no, I think it's so true. I had that moment recently where I was like, oh, this does feel like a superpower. Because I was reflecting on how, I was reflecting on how whenever I have guests back to my apartment, even if they're like men who you would think would be like, you know, resilient, because I keep my apartment cold, like cold. And all the men who have come over here are like, freezing. And I'm like, I'm fine. And I was like, thinking about it, I'm like, I, this is like a superpower, you know, I'm like, resilient, I can like handle the elements, even though I can't really handle the elements. But I love the cold, team cold over here. Quick travel plug for people, if they would like to come hang out with me. Oh, speaking of travel, Vanessa, you should come to the biohacking conference in Dallas. Is it happening already again? It's in May. Yes. Wow, that's crazy. I'm excited. So it's going to be so amazing. It's at the end of May, through the beginning of April, it's like three days. So look at me, I'm going to be there more than one day. Definitely come. There's so many guests I've had on the podcast. So I was looking at the lineup, it's people like Paul Saladino, Dr. Mercola, Sarah Gottfried, Anna Kebecke, there's like so many people. And then there's this massive expo where you can try all the health and biohacking things, meet all the people. We can hang out. So please come listeners. And if you're coming, please let me know so that we can meet. So if you go to melanieavilon .com slash biohacking conference, oh, and this is Dave Asprey's biohacking conference, by the way. So he'll be there as well. Use the coupon code BCMelanie and that coupon code will get you a massive discount. I think when this airs, it'll be a 30% discount. So again, melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference, coupon code BCMelanie, please come hang out. I will be there and we'll have so much fun. So I think that's all the things. And then one last plug for people, we are about to close out our special giveaway we're doing for the show. So this is a chance to win the entire AvalonX line, Vanessa's Tone Protein, and a special surprise from MD Logic. So you will win, are you ready? You will win my Sera Peptase, which is great to take in the fasted state. It really helps support your fast because it helps you break down problematic proteins, sort of like what autophagy does. So it helps with inflammation, clears your sinuses, clears your brain fog. Studies have shown it can reduce cholesterol, it can reduce amyloid plaque, in vitro and in vivo. Again, animal studies, but still pretty cool. So you'll get that. You'll get my Magnesium 8, which is a broad -spectrum magnesium blend because most people are deficient in magnesium. That's great for muscle recovery, sleep, just energy overall. You'll get my Magnesium Nightcap, which is a special type of magnesium, which crosses the blood -brain barrier. It helps with memory and mood, as well as sleep and relaxation. You will get my berberine, which is amazing for blood sugar control. If you're really trying to optimize your fasting and your eating and take charge of your metabolic health, berberine is incredible for that. When I wear a CGM, I see a massive difference in my blood sugar response when I am taking my berberine, specifically. I've compared it to other berberines. You will get Vanessa's Tone Protein. Vanessa, would you like to tell them about your tone protein?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to. Well, first of all, it tastes absolutely delicious because it's flavored with a vanilla bean. And everyone says they absolutely love taking everyday look forward to it as a special treat, but it's also scientifically optimized to help you build muscle and get toned and lean. So it's enhanced with leucine. So you know that you're triggering muscle protein synthesis with every serving. So it's scientifically formulated for optimal muscle growth and it also tastes delicious.

Melanie Avalon:
So you will get that and we recorded an episode episode before last all about the awesome benefits of protein actually before workouts how you can still burn equal amounts of fat as fasting as with protein prior to a workout so that's prior to a workout but also that protein would be great for refueling after a workout and Vanessa is the best of the best for formulation so you definitely definitely want that tone protein you will also get a special surprise from one of MD logics favorite supplements I'm not sure what they're going to throw in but I'm sure it will be awesome they have a wide broad range of supplements so if you would like to win all of that which is worth definitely a couple hundred bucks go to apple podcast subscribe to the show and write a brief review if you've already written a review before no worries you can update your old review to update it for something new and sparkly or you could create a new account and write a new review we would really love that but in any case do that and send a screenshot of the review to questions at if podcast .com and we will enter you to win the prize which is really really awesome so again subscribe brief review on apple podcasts or update your old review send us a screenshot to questions at ifodcast .com and you will win avallonix sarah peptase magnesium 8 magnesium nightcap berberine vanessa's tone protein and something special from MD logic all of that is worth a couple hundred bucks super awesome yeah okay shall we get into some fasting stuff for today I would love to answer some questions before that I have a really fun little quick review I was going to share a study it's actually just a review but it's from January 2024 so it's pretty new and it is a systemic review published in nutrients and it's called intermittent fasting does it affect sports performance a systemic review so the purpose of the study was to investigate whether or not intermittent fasting affects performance and professional athletes they wanted to look on the effects of aerobic and anaerobic exercise strength and power body composition including fat mass muscle mass and weight and see how intermittent fasting affected all of that the majority of the studies they looked at were time restricted feeding with a 16 hour fasting window and an eight hour feeding window there were a couple that were 14 eight hour fasting and those were primarily in Ramadan and they did look at one that looked at just quote overnight fasting their conclusion was. So looking at all the reviews, they found that first of all, they said that they could affirm that intermittent fasting of any type metabolically affects the body composition in a positive way. So it helps with body weight specifically. They said that it's a adequate nutritional strategy to reduce body fat percentage to a good number for the athlete. So that number is between 6% to 12% body fat for men and 12% to 18% body fat for women while, and this is key, maintaining muscle mass. So I think that is just so, so important. They also found that studies showed that fasting patients had greater adherence than other dietary approaches. So basically it's fasting is something that you can really stick to and is good for the long term. And interestingly, they actually found that in general, the fasting was actually more effective in the medium and long term than in the short term. And I just want to focus on this for a second because so often when we think of things like dieting or calorie restriction, it's always said that, yeah, it works in the short term, but not in the long term. Well, they actually found literally the opposite, which is what we want, that fasting is more effective in the medium and the long term than the short term, which I thought was super cool. They found that in general fasting improves metabolic health and insulin sensitivity and glucose and lipid metabolism. So that's sugar and fat metabolism in the body, all in ways that would be beneficial for the athlete. In particular, it seems to have a beneficial effect on adiponectin hormone, which low levels of adiponectin are actually associated with obesity, oxidative stress, and insulin resistance. So they found a good effect there. And they found that fasting does not negatively affect sports performance. And I already said this, but that it does improve body composition. So takeaway, again, this is a review from January 2024, but their findings were that fasting is basically a really good approach for professional athletes. Any comments there, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I think that's amazing. I mean, there's so many detractors about intermittent fasting. And yet I know when I was interviewing Dr. Mark Madsen, who's sort of one of the founders of intermittent fasting, he did some of the early research on it. And he found, you know, that it was amazing for, you know, BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, and that it was helping the athletes at his university. And he was really wanting to put their whole university track team on intermittent fasting, because he, he personally saw that with his running, that it was improving it. And he was like, we're going to be, you know, unbeatable if my, if the whole track team does intermittent fasting, but you know, he, he couldn't do it with the students there. But I remember him saying that, you know, he thought it was like the super powerful athletes for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so amazing. I love anecdotes like that. I need to, how many times have you interviewed him, Dr. Mattson?

Vanessa Spina:
Just once, I did one interview with him on the optimal protein podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, very cool. And he's like a legend in the fasting sphere. He's done so much, so much research with fasting. So that's amazing. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think he's one of the main reasons that intermittent fasting took off in the first place is definitely his research. That's incredible.

Melanie Avalon:
So, okay, and we'll put a link in the show notes to Vanessa's episode with Dr. Matson so people can check that out. And okay, shall we jump into some questions for today? Yes, I would love to. So to start things off, we have a question from Jennifer. We get questions like this all the time, but it's always nice to revisit and kind of just give an overview or approach to it. So she wants to know what foods slash supplements won't break a fast. She says she takes collagen powder, MCT oil, omega -3 oil, and she's read that a tablespoon of cream might be okay, but is any of that true?

Vanessa Spina:
So my personal golden rule with this is basically anything that has any calories in it or that's going to stimulate any anabolic processes or building or growth processes is not suitable for fasting because you want to only be in that catabolic or breakdown mode when you're in fasted mode. And so you are activating the AMPK pathway, which is associated with the longevity and health benefits that are provided from doing fasting. So I personally think, you know, if you're ever in doubt, just ask yourself, does this have any calories in it? So that means there are actually some supplements that you can take fasted as long as they don't say take with food on them because they don't have any calories at all. And they're not triggering any anabolic processes. But if we look at your list, for example, you know, collagen powder, does it have calories in it? Yes. So it does break a fast MCT oil. Does it have calories in it? Yes. So we'll break it fast. Omega three oil. Does it have calories in it? Yes. So we'll break it fast. So cream does have calories definitely will break it fast. So I think that one of the reasons there's a lot of confusion about this is because there are people who follow sort of the, you know, four different forms of fasting and keto, like the bulletproof sort of coffee kind of thing where, you know, that was always advocated as, well, this won't break your fast because it doesn't have any carbs in it. So in a sense, you know, there are people who advocate for fat fasts where, okay, we know that you're really not triggering as much insulin as if you're having carbs or protein. That's definitely true. But if it has calories in it, then in my opinion, you're taking the body out of the fasted state. So that's kind of, I'm pretty black and white on it. And that's how I tend to look at things. So being in the fasted state, for me, you know, there are things that you can get away with, like mostly water, plain tea, element, unflavored, I think it's called the raw element, which is basically just the electrolytes, you know, those things don't have calories in them. And they're not stimulating any growth pathways, anything anabolic. So what about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Three thoughts to it. One, if listeners would like free element, you can go to drinklmnt .com slash if podcast, that will get you a free sample pack, which will include that raw unflavored one. So definitely that would be a great supplement for your fast, the raw unflavored, which actually brings me to the second point, which is like an element sample pack, you also get all the other flavors. And so those are an example of something that is non caloric, so no calories, but they have a, like a sweet taste to them. I consider that breaking a fast, even though it's non caloric, which I love Vanessa's pillar about the calories, even though it's non caloric, it's sending signals to your body of flavor and food and sweetness, which can affect your insulin and you know, have a hormonal effect from there. So I basically do the two pillars like the calorie pillar that Vanessa talked about, and then does it evoke sweetness or the taste of food, even if it's non caloric. That's a really simple way to like two pillars to look at. But the third thing I thought about was, I guess we haven't recorded since I recorded the in person podcast with Dave for this show, right? That was also before. Yes, we have not recorded together, right? Yes, that's right. Crazy. I was thinking about it because you mentioned bulletproof. And also I asked Dave, so I'll put links in the show notes to the episodes that I did with Dave. But I asked him, you know, this question, of course, he has a very opinionated, intense opinion about this, which is a little bit contrary to what we said. That was crazy. I forgot, Vanessa, have you done in person podcasts before?

Vanessa Spina:
I have been a couple, but I was being interviewed, so it wasn't me interviewing like you did. you

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was like, this is a whole like, this is a whole another experience. Having to, it was a lot. It was a lot to take in. Because being interviewed, like you said, is one thing, but you're you're just answering the questions. But I was like, prepping and I had my notes, but it was like on camera. And it was with Dave Asprey, who's like a legend. And it was like a lot to take in and I was traveling for it. So but it was a magical time. So listeners, definitely, definitely check it out. I want to do more in person podcasts now, actually, which is crazy. It inspired me. So Okie Dokie, I think we answered that question. Shall we go on to Zena's question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So Xenia from Facebook says, my doctor told me to stop 16, eight intermittent fasting when I had a serious bloating issue. He couldn't tell me why I had a bloating issue. I did some tests and just minor stomach inflammation, but he said that I should stop 16, eight intermittent fasting, but I'm seeing people having all kinds of benefits from intermittent fasting, including fixing gut issues. And what if I start having weight gain after discontinuing with IF? What should I do? Then Emily said, why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. And once you see all the benefits, you won't want to stop. Stacy said, in my experience, bloating was food related. Think carbs like pasta, bread, chips, tweak the food.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So I love this question from Zinnia. I love the feedback that listeners provided as well. Okay, so Zinnia went to her doctor and her doctor said to stop IF because of her bloating. This doesn't really make sense to me. Okay, I have a few different thoughts. One, the actual fasted process itself is like Zinnia mentioned, healing for the gut. She's saying that she's heard the benefits of IF including fixing gut issues. So resting the gut is a great chance for it to heal and repair itself. Any bloating you would get from the actual fast would probably, and I reserve the right to be not completely comprehensive or adjust if new information comes out. But from my current understanding, really the only bloating that would be caused by fasting itself, not the eating on the flip side, but by the actual fasting would be a sort of die -off that people can get. So if you're starving some bad gut microbes, they can get a little bit unhappy and they can release metabolic byproducts which might contribute to bloating. That would be temporary though if you are fixing your gut, working on your foods, addressing your microbiome. So that would be a temporary thing and it's not something where you need to stop fasting. Now, if you get bloating while fasting, it's probably from kind of like what the listeners were like Stacy was saying with being the food related. It's probably from the food you're eating after the fasting and it could be accentuated or made a little bit worse because in the fasting pattern, you might now be eating a larger bolus of food at once than you were before. So before if you were eating just throughout the day, you would be constantly digesting that food at more of a baseline compared to fasting. And then if you're eating like a large bolus of food, you might be getting some digestive distress from that. So it could be just the actual load of the food being too much for you and or the actual foods that you're eating may be problematic and maybe eating them in a larger amount at once is a problem. So some ways to address that, I mean, two big pillars there. One, digestive support can be amazing. So taking some HCL, which is basically like our stomach acid and you can get it in supplement form that can really help with digestion, especially for digestion of protein. And you know, we're all about the high protein meals around here. And then digestive enzymes can be really great to help break down just all the things. I actually, Teaser probably will have a line out for this in the future. Right now what I currently take, I use pure encapsulations for their digestive enzymes and their HCL. So you can try that. And then also the actual foods you're eating, the bloating is probably caused by the foods you're eating or an extension, the foods, how they're being digested and metabolized by your gut bacteria, which are affected by the foods you're eating as well. So it all kind of like goes full circle. So I would really, I wouldn't stop IF, look at your food choices and try to find what you do digest. Going on an elimination diet temporarily can be really helpful for that. Definitely get my app FoodSense Guide. That's at melonieavilon .com slash FoodSense Guide. I'm happy to announce it is now free. It used to be a paid app, but I actually made it free. So you can subscribe beyond that for other features in it, but there is a free version. So that is a comprehensive guide to over 300 foods. And it'll show you what different potentially problematic food compounds are high in each food. So you can kind of see like, oh, if I'm reacting to, you know, these foods, you can like see what compounds they're high in. And it might turn out that you have a problem with FODMAPs or you have a problem with lectins or you have a problem with histamine. So that might be a valuable tool. Also taking something I love to help with this that has been incredible for my bloating has been to, well, for me to a low FODMAP diet. So I use my FoodSense Guide app for that. And then having my fast and then ending my fast. There's this supplement. I want to make my own version one day. It's called Dr. Danielle Gut Assist. I have tried a lot of different leaky gut support powders. And they usually have some combination of glutamine with some other things. I love this one. I literally, I've tried so many. So it has L -glutamine, it has D -glycerinated licorice extract, which I've tried that one by itself as well. But I like it in this blend. It has some aloe and it has some arabino -galactin. So I take that as a supplement at the end of my fast. And I found that really, really helps my overall digestion and bloating. So to recap, Zinnia, I would not stop the, I mean, I don't want to go against your doctor. So work with your practitioner or find a new one. I would keep going with the bloating and then kind of like, so Stacy talked about the food -related things. And then Emily was saying, why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. And once you see all the benefits, you won't want to stop. I do think that a lot of listeners and people, IF becomes a lifestyle for them. And all of that said, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Vanessa's eating window in the past. That said, don't feel like you have to be on one certain type of fasting forever and ever. Like you should feel free and the ability to change around your fasting window. So I think the best of both worlds is seeing fasting as a lifestyle and also knowing you have flexibility within that to change and adapt accordingly. So I don't think we ever want like a fear mindset or over restriction or anything like that. So I just want to encourage that mindset surrounding all of that. I also have thoughts about the weight gain after discontinuing. But Vanessa, do you have any thoughts about the bloating and all the things?

Vanessa Spina:
I think you entered it really thoroughly. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the waking.

Melanie Avalon:
I was just going to say to that that like people really get, you know, worried about weight gain after discontinuing with IF and well, A, goes back to IF can be a lifestyle and it's always in your back pocket and you can always keep doing it. But having this fear about weight gain, I just really want to empower people that you can always, even if you're not doing fasting, you can always make food choices that support your body and you don't have to gain weight. And I know that sounds like really simple and simplistic, so maybe I'll elaborate on it a little bit more, but so say you do stop fasting and you go back to eating throughout the day. Your body requires a certain amount of nutrients and calories every single day and you don't have to be restrictive to maintain, especially if you're making whole foods choices and focusing on protein, there's just so much potential basically in your food choices. And when you get out of the mindset of like, it's all about calories and if I eat this amount of calories or if I'm eating at these times, I'm going to gain weight, I would just try to add some comfort in that focus on what you can have and, you know, try to not focus on the fear mindset about gaining weight. Think about things that like if you focus on protein, for example, that's going to fill you up, especially lean protein and lean protein itself does not easily become fat. I mean, we even talked about a study recently where fueling with lean protein before exercise, people still burn fat similar to fasted exercise, which is so, so mind blowing. So focusing on foods that don't even normally become fat, so eating protein and then eating whole foods that, you know, require, they require energy to be broken down. They have a thermogenic effect. They're not just easily shuttled into fat. I just want to encourage people to, to kind of lose that fear if they can. Yeah, that was a lot of thoughts. Any, any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Just I guess the last note that I would say about the bloating is I really recommend trying an elimination protocol. And for me, I did that for a month doing carnivore, you don't have to do it for a whole month, but carnivore diet, just eating mostly meat, I think you did it recently for like, almost two weeks, like 10 days. It's a period of time where you can just only give your body something that generally does not cause much bloating for people. And what I found is that when I did only meat, then I was able to reintroduce certain plant foods, and I was able to see what actually did cause bloating for me. And after I figured out what that was, like for me, it was a lot of cruciferous vegetables, a lot of the cabbage family, broccoli, cauliflower, you know, a lot of times people eat these foods because we're told they have anti cancer properties, and they're really good for you. And a lot of people incorporate them into your diet. But for me, it was causing me so much bloating. And as soon as I figured out what it was, I was able to, you know, reintroduce other foods, and not have to deal with bloating anymore. So I think that elimination protocols can be really helpful to sort of figure out if there is something that you're habitually consuming that is actually causing bloating for you. And it's a food sometimes that you may not think it is. And it could surprise you. But then once you figure it out, then, you know, you don't have to deal with bloating anymore, which, you know, I've been free of bloating for four or five years now since I figured that out. And I know from having dealt with it in the past, how uncomfortable and stressful it is, and it may not be being caused by food. I'm glad you're seeing a specialist about it to figure out the root cause of it. But elimination protocols can be really powerful, you know, for figuring that out.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm so glad you talked about that because that reminded me of an incredible resource for listeners. So we had the founders of Victus88 on the show. This is the food sensitivity test. I am obsessed with friends, so I was always looking for a food sensitivity test that would actually show you what you were sensitive to. Because most of them just look at IgG or IgM, which isn't the full picture, they actually look at the full picture, which is not just IgG and IgM, your immune reactions, but these two really important things called C3D as well as IgG4. And basically, I don't want to get all in the nuance and the weeds of it, but basically what they do is they show you what your body is actually reacting to. And then they show you if your body has created tolerance because it's possible that you're having an IgG or an IgE response. And I said that earlier, I think I said IgM, they look at IgG, IgE, IgG4, and C3D. They show you not only are you responding to a certain food, but is your body either A, have tolerance, so it's actually not a problem, or B, are you only responding a little bit, but your body is amplifying that response, and that's what that C3D response is. So that was a lot of letters. It's a mind -blowing test, and I think it really helps show listeners what foods may or may not be a problem, and even on the meat side of things. So when I did it, I found that I thought, oh, carnivore, any meat goes, but I found that I actually respond, for example, some I have zero response to, like pork is completely fine for me. Cod is fine. Shrimp is fine. Scallops, which I eat all the time, have a little bit of a response, but they have this complementary other aspect, which makes them be tolerant to it, which is so fascinating. But then I actually do have a little bit of reaction to chicken and beef, which made me sad. I was like, what? And also, people can find that addressing their that if they do multiple tests, addressing their gut health and their digestion, that they might adapt and change over time, which is incredible. So if you it's called Victus 88, you can get $55 off with the code Melanie Avalon. Just go to Melanie Avalon dot com slash Victus 88. That's B I C T U S eight eight. So that could be really, really eye opening for everybody to see what foods like literally see what foods there are problematic for them, like right here, right now. And then you can make actually walks you through a elimination. It gives you options like an intense elimination protocol to try or a more approachable elimination protocol where you just cut things out every few days. So it's really amazing. We'll put links to all that in the show notes. So I think that is all the things as a brief reminder for listeners. If you would like to win the entire avallonix line, as well as messes tone protein, as well as a special surprise from IndiLogic, go to Apple podcasts, write a brief review and subscribe or update your old review and send a screenshot of that to questions. I a podcast dot com. Another resource if you'd like to hang out with me and Dave Asprey and Paul Saladino and Dr. Sarah Gottfried and Anna Kebecke and so many guests I've had on my show. Definitely come to Dave Asprey's 10th annual biohacking conference in Dallas. It's this may be code B C. Melanie will get you 30% off at melanieavallon .com slash biohacking conference. You can get these show notes for today's show with links to all of this. So all these things I'm hitting you with, they'll all be in the show notes. They'll be at I a podcast dot com slash episode 363. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I a podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl and you can follow me on my new TikTok. Please come hang out with me there. I feel really lonely. So please come. That is Melanie Avalon biohacker. Whoo. Okay. I think that is all the things. Vanessa, this was so wonderful. Thank you for, I want to say thank you to Vanessa because she's like a champ. She's doing these recordings while having, you know, a newborn. So, so much gratitude to you for, for being here and this has been so amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so sweet. I'm so happy to be back recording with you. I'm excited for us to get back to our regular recording schedule and just excited for, yeah, all the future episodes. I had so much on with you. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I will talk to you next time.

Vanessa Spina:
next week. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re -composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 04

Episode 359: Morning Routines, Blue Light, Grounding, Brown Fat, Emotional Conservation, Daily Protein, Natural Flavors, Muscle Loss, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 359 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

REEL PAPER: Reel paper makes soft, sustainable, eco-friendly, soft, perfume-free, dye-free, plastic-free toilet paper made of 100% bamboo, and they plant one tree for each role you buy! Reel paper is available in easy, hassle-free subscriptions or one-time purchases,  conveniently delivered to your door with free shipping in 100% recyclable, plastic-free packaging. Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

MD Logic: MD Logic’s Vitamin D3K2 is the ultimate vitamin D supplement for bones, immunity, and overall health and wellness! Derived from all natural vegan lichen, Md Logic’s D3K2 is tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all problematic filters, and comes in a glass bottle! Get 10% off sitewide at MDlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

REEL PAPER: Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

AIRDOCTOR: Shop at airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

MD Logic: Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

Listener Q&A: Sadi - Total protein for the day

Listener Q&A: Karen - Can you speak to ‘natural flavors’?

Listener Q&A: Katie - I am so torn between fasting and eating enough protein

Listener Q&A: Marisa - Can you please address Isoleucine restriction as it relates to longevity?

Dietary restriction of isoleucine increases healthspan and lifespan of genetically heterogeneous mice

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - Thoughts on taking mineral supplements

Listener Q&A: Lori - I’d love ideas on how to firm up my skin after weight loss after the age of 50

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 359 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Vanessa Spina:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Spina, and I have a wonderful co host joining us again, Scott Emmons from MD Logic. How are you doing today, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I'm doing wonderful. Pleasure to be back on the show with you, Vanessa. Looking forward to our questions for the day. I always get to learn so much and get a further understanding of what people are concerned with and the questions they have recently. So yeah, super excited.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited too and just can't wait to get into these questions. I had so much fun recording the last one with you. So much fun to have you back here on this one. And it's early March when this episode is coming out, and it's my birthday week, march eigth.

Scott Emmens:
Hey, happy birthday.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks.

Scott Emmens:
Spring break is coming up. The weather should be breaking soon, so looking forward to that.

Vanessa Spina:
I am too. I'm really excited for just spring in general. I mean, I'm enjoying winter more and more since I have started embracing the cold, learning about circadian health, cold adaptation, which we were just talking about on the last episode, and all the benefits that you get from that. So we could talk actually a little bit about morning routines. But since I've been diving more deeply into this red light is a huge part of my morning routine and also getting out and getting the sun on my body throughout the day, but specifically, especially at two times, and that's at sunrise if I'm up for it, which I usually am. And in the winter, like just standing out there and doing some grounding. Standing out in our garden, doing some grounding. I definitely look like a psychopath if you are not into any of this stuff. But I'm barefoot in the garden, like, walking around just for, like, five to ten minutes, getting some light on my body. And it's amazing to know that that's really signaling the melanopsin in my eyes and skin and initiating these hormonal cascades and also getting a bit of uva light a little bit later in the morning. And it's so important in the winter, I think about so often so many of us work and live in indoor environments now, which is such a contrast to our ancestors. And not only that, but windows that we have filter out most of the red light, and they let in all the blue, and then we're staring at blue screens. It's almost like we're in an experiment designed to see, how bad is blue light for you. Because the way we live our lives, we just get so little natural light. And you think about the time, if you don't live in Hawaii or Australia or other parts, the winter is generally cold, and so we're indoors even more. And I'm one of those people who always used to want to be comfortable all the time. And if I saw someone outside in the morning, in the winter, barefoot, I'd be like, what is going on with that person? But apparently, getting that light exposure during the day is even more important than avoiding blue light at night, which says so much, right?

Scott Emmens:
100%. It is so difficult to do in the winter, but I have really made an effort. Now my son thinks I'm insane because where I ground, he has a sliding basement door. So I'm standing in front of his sliding basement door. So when he opens his curtains every now and then, he sees his dad in shorts in, like, 30 degree weather, standing barefoot out in the sun. He's like, dad, you're mental. And I'm like, listen, kid, when you're 52, you're going to be doing the same thing because you're going to be in worse shape than me, because at least in my 20s, we were outdoors doing things we didn't have computers. You're right. The amount of blue light, and more importantly, the fact that we really don't get much sunlight on our face. Like, you get in your car, you might have a little commute, but even then, your windows might be tinted, and even a non tinted window is preventing some of the natural light from getting to you. You really have to get some direct face and eye and skin exposure. And the earlier in the morning, the better. It's going to reset your clock. And if you don't believe me, go camping for a week. Don't bring any melatonin or sleep aids. Go out there, wake up when the sun goes up, and I promise you, by 930, you will be knocked out dead asleep.

Vanessa Spina:
We spent so much time at our cabin or cottage growing up, and I always used to go to bed at, like, eight whenever we're there, when we're camping, it's the same thing. And I always used to think it was because we didn't have tv, but it's probably that blue light coming from screens and just the routines that are so important. And it's amazing how these simple, free hacks are just aligning ourselves with that circadian rhythm that ancestrally, we would have spent all of our time outdoors. Even if we were sleeping in caves or in different fabricated habitats, we would have been outside all the time. And now we're doing the exact opposite of that. And it's amazing how these really simple things, like grounding like that. It's funny your son laughs at you because Luca loves it. Like, kids have so much brown fat all over their bodies, and we can actually gain it back. So there was this one study where this individual had a tumor on their adrenal glands, and they were constantly secreting adrenaline, and they had brown fat all over their bodies, so we can actually get it back. But when you're born, you have so much of it. So Luca doesn't really feel the cold, much. Like when we're outside in the winter, he loves it, and it's very rare that he'll say to me, like, I'm cold. And it's because it's really cold, and he's, like, dropped a glove or something like that. But kids have so much brown fat, they're constantly outside trying to take clothes off, and we're, like, putting layers on. You know, we can really learn so much from that. They're also in and out of ketosis all the time. And that's been really interesting with Luca because I have the tone device. I can check his ketones, and he loves it. Like, daddy checks his ketones, mommy checks her ketones, and he loves just taking it and blowing into it. And it's kind of fun because it's got graphics on it, and it gives know a number, like a readout, and he's in ketosis all the time. And we're born with that. The brown fat and the metabolic flexibility and our super comfortable lifestyles and environments and convenience food basically gets rid of all of those superpowers that we're born with. And now we're trying to reclaim through these different biohacks and things.

Scott Emmens:
People, they look at biohacking and they sort of think, like, I don't know if they think it's cheating or it's crazy, but really, we're just trying to get our bodies back to the natural state of things. It's because the modern lifestyle makes that know. It's funny, I hadn't even thought of this till you mentioned luca, but I remember being five to, like, eight and outside for five or 6 hours in the snow, making a snowman, like, for literally hours and not getting cold.

Vanessa Spina:
Same. Making a fort.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, making a fort, which was. God, I used to love that your.

Vanessa Spina:
Parents have to call you in and you're like, no.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, it was very rare that maybe my feet would get cold or something, or my hands, because the gloves were so. But, like, my body, I don't really recall shivering. I was basically out there building snow forts, having snowball fights, making snowmen for hours. And I think a lot of it was just your body's natural adaptation and the brown fat you develop and have when you're young. So that's an interesting observation with Luca.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I notice that, and I hear it from other people who practice similar morning routines with grounding, with red lights. I'll tell you mine, basically, I do that outside, and I turn on red light if I'm up before sunrise and just have it ambiently. So, like, if I'm in the bathroom with Luca or he's having a bath or something, and he know having the red light, and I try to do my red light therapy session sometime in there, and then typically, I'll have a coffee with almond milk. And that's usually how I start, like, the first hour of my day or so. What about you?

Scott Emmens:
My first hour of the day is, typically, I will try to go for either a walk if it's too cold, if it's not too cold, I'll be able to go outside on the grass. Can't be concrete, or it's got to be grass. Barefoot, maybe ten minutes in the sun, not long, just ten minutes in the sun. And then I will be usually drinking my coffee simultaneously. Then, if I still have the time, I'll make some fresh squeezed lemon juice, which is really great to get your bile and your liver kind of going for the day. And then I may wait an hour or two, take a berberine, and then I'll make usually like three to four eggs over easy, and that's pretty much it. I just eat those eggs and that gets me through most of the day to like 132 o'clock. But my morning routine is basically getting light. That's the most important thing. Grounding if possible, and then coffee with some nutrients, electrolytes and hydration. Pretty simple.

Vanessa Spina:
I love hearing people's morning routines. I have this one book, and I think it's called morning rituals of creatives or something like that. And it talks about all the highest producing poets and writers and scientists, and every page is like their morning routine. And sometimes it's their whole day. And it's so funny because it's like some of the most prolific writers that we absolutely adore and revere. They were like sleeping in the day, getting up, smoking a pack of cigarettes, having coffee, staying indoors a lot, just like some really unhealthy situations. But it's like they did whatever they could to preserve their creative energies. And it's just funny because some of them are really healthy, and then others are just like, they're so unhealthy, and yet it was whatever they needed to be able to perform. And I know for myself, in order to be really productive and clear and coherent and creative, especially, I have to protect my mental energy so much. The rest of the time when I'm not preparing to podcast, I have to do nothing. I have to basically do nothing. And I also have to protect myself constantly from negative news and negative, just negativity. And if I do that, then I can be really creative and high producing. And it's almost to the point where I have all these boundaries around me to prevent that stuff from getting in. But I have to be like this, and I have to tell my husband all the time, I don't want to hear that a horrible story, because I have to protect my energy. And it's interesting. Do you have anything like that that you feel like you have to create boundaries around or to get in a flow state or something?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, so that's fascinating. I had not even mentioned this to you at all, I don't think. But I have been working on some articles and considering. So launching a podcast that's going to be health based, probably January 22 is my goal, but let's just hope it's January 22. But I also have been thinking about launching a podcast called emotional conservation. And it's a combination. Yeah, seriously. So this is so crazy that you're mentioning this, because I haven't mentioned this to anyone.

Vanessa Spina:
Wow.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah. And the whole idea is that, look, you only have so much creative mental energy to output, right? What are the things you can do to help yourself keep both your emotional conservation and your emotional iq functioning? So your emotional iq is how well you're able to empathize, how well you're able to understand what other people are going through and when the right thing to say is something. But when your emotional conservation or your emotional stores are low, your emotional iq by default, even if you know what to do, becomes harder to do it because you're agitated, you're tired, you haven't saved up the energy, you can't be creative. You get overwhelmed. So that's something I've been digging a lot into. And one of the things I found that's been helpful is not just the morning routine, but the nighttime routine helps set up the morning routine. So, for example, I have a jug of water that I put next to my bed before I go to bed. I have an electrolyte pack next to that jug of water. And so sometimes I'll take electrolytes, sometimes I won't, but I will chug the water first thing in the morning when I wake up. That's like the first thing I do. But I have it in the night, my gratitude journal. Instead of writing in the morning when I've already, like, I'm ready to go and get going, I'll kind of write that in the evening. If I've got concerns or worries, I write those down in the evening, shut off my phone, I put it on do not disturb in airplane mode around 930 or 10:00 and then that's it. Then I get in bed and I'm prepared and ready for the next day because I don't have things hanging over me. I know what I want to do. And that helps with the emotional conservancy. And then as far as the news and negative media, yeah, that doesn't go on at all past like 02:00 if ever. I just try to skip through it. Even when I go to my little Microsoft browser and it's got articles that are clickbait, I'm like, skip. No, don't want to hear that. Don't care because you've only got so much emotion to give out. Yeah, really interesting you mentioned that. So you may be seeing the emotional conservation podcast sometime in 2024.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, you're going to have to have me on as a guest because I'm obsessed with this topic.

Scott Emmens:
You're booked. Consider yourself booked.

Vanessa Spina:
It's so funny because I just tell Pete all the time. He's a protector, he's a provider, he's a protector. He's constantly screening information for danger. He's on Twitter or x a lot, and he's like telling me information and I'm like, this information does nothing for me or for my ability to create positivity in the world. And he doesn't fully get it, I think, because he really needs to be informed because that's his primary goal, is, like, protecting and providing for us. But I'm a creative person and that stuff just sucks all my positive energy out and it just kills it. And there's so much negative news that is so like this really disempowering feeling. I'm not saying be ignorant, but you feel so disempowered by it. And so I think maybe I'm sensitive also to other people's states. Anytime I hear about something horrible happening, I'm like, to someone else, I just feel it. I feel it. And then I can't get in a good state to be creative or I can't get in the flow. You really have to protect yourself and your mental energy if you're going to go out and create and have the energy to create. And at the end of the day, I think it's okay to be maybe a little bit ignorant sometimes of the bad things happening in the world because that's what the news is always highlighting. And they're not highlighting the fact that, let's say, 500,000 successful births happened today. And this 95 year old man celebrated his birthday surrounded by all his family. And these people just got a well in their village. Actually, there's some Instagram accounts now that finally have good news. Those are the only ones, like, to follow. But it doesn't get clicks, it doesn't get reactions. And now it seems like so much of the content that we see is like, there's actually accounts that I've heard on podcasts. Their whole mo is just posting stuff that is controversial or gives you a negative reaction because it gets the most engagement. Like they purposely are designing content for people that will make them click or comment. And it's the stuff that makes you feel outraged. And it's like, I don't want to feel outraged. I don't want to feel all this. And then all your energy then goes towards that, and then you don't have it left for yourself and for the good you want to put out for the good you want to put out into the world. So I think it's okay to be conservative. And be protective of your energy.

Scott Emmens:
And I used to be a lot like Pete, right? And I would do dive into research and articles and what's going on in the world and try to spread this information. And what I found was it didn't make my family happier. It didn't help them. It made them feel exactly like you said. And I think the more empathetic you are, the more it negatively affects you because you want to help. But there's very little that you can tangibly do in a lot of these situations. Can you be supportive of people? Can you feel empathy for them? Yes. But the way that it's portrayed is sort of like it's your fault the environment's dying and it's your fault and you should do this. And people, then, they want to pick sides. Look, we pick sides over football teams and politicians and whether this brand is better than that brand, or whether we pick sides over almost anything. And I think that's been weaponized to some extent because it works to your point. It gets clicks, it gets people engaged. It gets engagement, it keeps people on. I don't see people on twitter for 2 hours having, hey, I really like you too. I think your point is wrong. And your point. No, here's my point. And you know what happens at the end of the day, neither one of them has convinced them of anything other than they've spent 2 hours arguing and spending a lot of negative energy. So I just walked away from that because it doesn't do any good. And it does leave you feeling a little bit unempowered. But also for people, like, I think for you and I and other people that are empathetic, it kind of hurts. And it leaves with this sort of sad feeling. So I get where Pete's coming from, and I used to do that same thing, and I just realized it's not helping my family. And frankly, it wasn't helping me either, because I'm like, I started spinning down this negative sort of spiral in my. Got to cut that out. So about three years ago, I just stopped watching the news pretty much altogether. But believe it or not, no matter how much you try to not watch the news, you still get it anyway. So if it's really that important, you're not going to be ignorant. You're going to hear about it, you're going to know about it. It's just not in your face all the time. It's not being presented by me to my family where they're like, is dad losing it? He really seems tense about this stuff. And kids want to feel safe.

Vanessa Spina:
It's designed to make you tense. It's designed to make tense and to react and to get that reaction from you. And I'm so glad that you became aware of it. It's hard sometimes to make people be aware of it. I have this game I play with Pete, so he'll tell me the news of the day, and I'm like, thanks for the daily outrage. We're all addicted to it, and it is very addictive. And I think he'll smile when I say that. But it's true. Your brain starts to become more and more wired a certain way towards getting used to receiving certain feelings and emotions and reactions. And it's definitely being used against us. Like, the fact that we are like that and the fact that we're programmed to always be looking for that tiger in the bush, that the negative stuff, it sticks out. It stands out so much more. And you have to actually deliberately put boundaries around yourself to make sure you cultivate the opposite, because you're always going to be. We are the descendants of the most paranoid, the most conspiracy theorists, like cavemen and women, because the ones who were not looking for the tigers in the bush got pretty much eaten, right?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, they're right here. Welcome to the Daily ps. Stay with Scott and Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I could talk about this stuff for hours. Yeah, I love talking about morning routines. Biohacks. I got all fired up about the biohacks from the last episode that we talked about. We had some really phenomenal questions, as usual. Let's get into some of today's questions. The first one comes to us from Sadie, if you'd like to read it, Scott.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. Thank you, Sadie, for the question from Sadie. I understand the concept and goal of consuming x amount of total protein per day. For me, it's desired body weight or lean mass because I have a lot of body fat to lose. And the goal to consume at least 30 to 40 grams of protein at each meal to get enough leucine to activate PMS. I don't think we want to activate PMS. I think we're talking about muscle protein synthesis, or in this case, protein muscle synthesis. But vanessa, I would guess we're not looking to activate PMS anytime.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't want to activate PMS. I definitely want to activate muscle protein synthesis. And we all know Sadie was meaning to say muscle protein synthesis, but she probably had autocorrect on, and it gets me every.

Scott Emmens:
So we had to have a little fun with that.

Vanessa Spina:
I love typos. I love them. They are.

Scott Emmens:
So, yeah, enough leucine to activate muscle protein synthesis. But if I'm doing one to two protein shakes a day to help keep calories low, lose body fat with just one scoop of whey protein, 20 grams of protein with added EA powder to increase the leucine content to activate mps. Doing this until tone protein comes out. Would my total protein for the day decrease since each shake is only 20 grams, but enough leucine to activate? Hope that makes sense. So you think, yes, it does. But vanessa, take it away.

Vanessa Spina:
So this is exactly why we created tone protein is to be able to hit your protein target without having to take down like six chicken breasts all the time, and to be able to eating 100 to 150 grams of protein. I think a lot of people fall in that sort of amount for their daily target, and it's sometimes hard to get that. That's like the number one thing I hear from people is that how do I possibly eat this much protein a day? We're not used to it. Maybe men are more used to it. Women are not used to it. We're used to eating salads and light food, calorie light foods and diet foods and things like that that we were told would help us recompose our bodies. We didn't know we were supposed to be eating the protein and hitting the gym instead of eating the salads and hitting the treadmill. And that's shifting. Now we're understanding what fitness really is from a female perspective as well. And I think just hitting that protein target, it can be difficult because it's a learning curve. There's a learning curve, and I've learned how to do it in different ways. But I wanted to create something that I myself could use so that I could take one serving of a high quality whey protein shake that is enhanced with leucine, similar to what you're doing by adding in some actually essential amino acids. But you could just be adding in bcaas and you'd be enhancing your protein meal or your protein shake, in this case, with the added leucine content. And so you don't need the EAA powder, just bcas. Or you could just take tone protein because you said you were doing this until tone protein comes out, and it's definitely out now. And so you could either do that, keep doing what you're doing, or you could try tone protein because it does the same thing. But to answer your question, your total protein for the day will decrease because you're getting maybe five or six less grams. Doing a scoop of tone protein or the scoop of the whey protein with the added bcaas. So the shakes, like you were saying, they end up being less than that. Like 30 to 35 grams range that I recommend for a protein meal. But it doesn't matter because what matters is you're raising the level leucine in your blood to initiate pms or muscle protein synthesis.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, we'll call that protein muscle synthesis.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, exactly.

Scott Emmens:
It is mps, though, for folks who just want to be totally clear on it. By the time folks are hearing this podcast, Vanessa MD Logical have launched a leucine only capsule. So you will not need to have anything other than just the leucine capsule. And you can add it to the whey protein, although you don't need to because you're getting four full grams. But let's say you're traveling and you want to have the chicken breast, but you want to make sure you're getting enough leucine or you want to have just two spikes. You want to have a spike before your workout, but you don't want to have another protein shake. You just want to have a full meal, but you want to just kind of make sure. Am I getting that leucine? You'll get three capsules, will give you 1.5 grams. So if you do four capsules, you'd be close to two. And six capsules give you a full 3 grams of leucine. So if you were to take three capsules with a meal, you'd probably be right in that three to four gram range, depending on the meal you're eating. We will probably also, by this point, have an essential amino acid powder out that's going to be coming out and it will have 2 grams of leucine total. So it's not going to hit that quite that four. But to me, that would be something that I'm going to experiment with pre workout. So it's going to be kind of my pre workout drink. I might add a leucine capsule or two to it prior to my workout. And then my post workout is going to be the tone protein because I'm going to get the full grams of a complete 20 grams of protein plus the 4 grams of leucine. For me, it's hard for me to drink a protein shake and work out, like to be a little lighter in my stomach when I work out. So I'm probably going to do like an EA pre workout, maybe with a leucine cap or not. And then my tone protein shake will either be like in the morning as a substitute for my breakfast. And then that'll be my post workout because I'm really at that age of 52, it's getting more difficult to maintain muscle mass. So that's probably going to be my routine. I'll keep you posted once if I get to come back after March and we'll let you know how that routine is going. But I'm super excited just for the tone. I've seen an improvement with just that, but I think my routine is going to be a tone protein post an EA pre and loosing capsules with meals or when I'm traveling and I just can't bring along the tone or the that.

Vanessa Spina:
I love that. And yeah, I love that you love tone protein, too, and so does Sadie. I hope that you get to try it out and let us know how you are liking it, Sadie. But I love that in the know you crafted your own formulation. That's totally what I've been doing for so. And I know you have been too, Scott. So our next question comes to us from Karen on Facebook, and she says, can you speak to, quote unquote, natural flavors? I have heard and read to steer clear as there isn't much regulation on what they can include. However many products that are endorsed by people that I have come to trust have them. So how do you shift through what is healthy and what is not?

Scott Emmens:
So that's a great question. And I think the reason that you are saying many people you've come to trust have them in their products is in order to make any kind of flavor, you need a natural flavor binder of some kind. For vanilla, for example, it's very hard to extract the flavor out of the bean. And so you need to utilize the natural vanilla flavor and combine it with other natural flavors to make sure that it pops. So if you've got a reputable company that you trust and people that you trust, they're going to have natural flavors that are exactly what they say, right? It's natural flavors to enhance the vanilla flavor or the orange flavor. So if it's a protein drink from a company you trust, or it is a pre workout drink from a company that you trust, and there aren't 18 or 19 different ingredients like silicon dioxides and dyes and flavors and other things, I think you're really safe. Now, they are regulated in terms of grass, meaning the FDA says they have to be generally recognized as safe. You'll often hear that referred to as grass. So they have to be generally recognized as safe to be included in whatever it is you're eating. Where I get concerned on natural flavors is particularly in things like processed foods or processed sugary drinks. For example. Potato chips are a good example. Cheetos are a good example. Fast food is another one where they'll add these natural flavors. And at that point, it could be a cacophony of 19 different ingredients. Whereas typically, when you're looking at something like a whey protein or a pre workout drink, you're looking at two or three ingredients in those natural flavors that are not only grass, but in our case, make sure that they're beyond grass. They're safe for your body to take. So I think if it's someone you trust and a brand you trust and it's in a health product, you can be pretty confident you're in good shape. If it's coming from potato chips or some sort of dorito like or spicy sort of salty thing, or fast food, processed food or frozen pizzas, I'd steer away from those so I wouldn't lump them all in the same bucket. There's definitely a distinction between brands you trust in the health space and your processed foods or sausages and things like that. So hopefully that helps clarify the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing all that information, Scott. I know being involved in supplement manufacturing for so many years, you are the best person to ask this question to, and it's really helpful and informative. So thank you so much for answering that. And thank you, Karen, for your question. And we have a question from Katie on Facebook.

Scott Emmens:
Okay. Hi Katie, thank you for your question. I am so torn between fasting and eating enough protein. I've been fasting 18 to 20 hours a day, occasionally 20 to 24 for three plus years. It's weird for me to eat before 01:00 p.m. I have such a hard time doing that. I'm usually at work and prefer to eat when I get home. And for years I've heard in your podcast and others that a four to six hour eating window was great for health. But now I'm learning more about the power of eating more protein, especially in menopause. I am almost 53 and have been in menopause for two years. Do I ditch the short eating window for more protein or try to cram it all in in 4 hours? Does Vanessa still fast? Question mark. I think I remember her saying on her podcast she now eats breakfast shortly after waking and then around dinner at six ish. I'm not sure which approach to take, but I'm afraid to stop my fasting. My weight loss has been creeping up ten pounds since last summer. So maybe I need to shift to more protein and a shorter fast. Great question.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, thank you so much for this question, Katie. Now this is a question where if Melanie was here, we'd probably have a little bit different responses because I know that she has a little bit of a different approach than I do, and she tends to do that shorter eating window, more omad style, but with a long window where she gets all of her protein in in that day. Now, as for me, I do approach it a little bit differently, and I have been changing it up in the last years, I have been trying different approaches. Now, I found that when I'm traveling and we're at a resort, which is kind of where this all started, it was way easier for me to do the half board. That's a really common thing at resorts here in Europe and in Greece, where we go, they have this breakfast option with this incredible breakfast buffet. So I had to get that in. And then I ended up just fasting until dinner because I felt fully satisfied from an amazing, nutrient dense breakfast. And that was a way for me to adapt in that situation. Then I kept doing it for a while we were home, but I naturally started gravitating back towards doing more of the 16 eight, the lunch and dinner. And I've talked to a lot of experts about this, especially Dr. Don Layman. And I am not a big fan personally of Omad, unless someone maybe is using it to either lose the last five to ten pounds and then they just want to maintain and just eat one meal a day because they like that. So some people really like that routine. It frees up your day from having to cook and prepare meals and clean up after. You could just eat once and some people love that. Now, I find that in terms of my personal approach, it's optimal for me to eat around midday. It's usually after my fasted workout and I feel great having a meal then at that time, it works really well for me socially as well. And I am also not hungry, just like you in the mornings. I just don't typically have a big appetite in the morning, so it just suits me better. I find I'm more energetic when I'm out doing errands or working out, and I have found that to work really well for me. So I prefer to have a 16 eight eating window. I don't think you need to get it in four to 6 hours. I think if you are someone who is over the age of 40, I personally believe you should be eating at least twice a day and protein focused meals at both of those meals because our rates of muscle protein breakdown do go up and we have lower levels of hormones as we get older and so we don't have the same anabolic signals or stimulus that we used to with hormones. So instead of having those hormone levels helping us to retain our muscle, now we have to use protein, protein intake to get enough protein at a meal to initiate muscle protein synthesis. And resistance training provides another anabolic signal to tell your body, we need this muscle. She's using it, he's using it. We have to hold on to it and maybe even grow it. And you have to send those signals that way because you don't have those hormones to rely on anymore. I also don't like too much extended fasting past the age of 40 because that muscle is so precious and it's hard to put muscle on. It's really hard to put muscle on and it's hard to maintain it as well, and also to have strong muscles and bones. So resistance training anywhere from two to four times a week, at a minimum two a week and a minimum two meals a day. If you really want to focus on building muscle, minimum three meals a day. And I sometimes do that. I sometimes have lunch, dinner, and I often will have a protein shake after dinner with tone protein. Now I'm having two a day. So you could say I'm up to four a day and I'm not really concerned about the fasting window. So you sort of ended the question saying that your weight has been creeping up about ten pounds. If you're after body recomp, body recomposition, fat loss and retention of your lean mass. I would say to me, this is like a great switch up, going from fasting 18 up to 22, 24 hours a day to now you're eating two meals. I can't tell you how many messages and emails I get from people who say they've added in another protein meal and their fat loss has really ramped up effortlessly because you also get the satiating effect from the protein that's so high, the thermic effect of protein, which helps you burn more calories. I've just get countless messages from people saying that they've added in. Either they've gone from one meal a day to two or they've gone from two to three and they're just eating more protein and suddenly their clothes are fitting better and they've lost ten to 20 pounds. So if you're feeling stuck, there's no better time than to try a different approach to switch it up. And I would not worry about trying to fast the most amount of hours in a day. I think you're going to get better results if you add a protein meal in. What do you think, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I completely agree. I think you're going to get better results by adding in more protein and having a larger eating window. So my wife actually, she's going to kill me if she hears this podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember this.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, my wife went into menopause about 18 months ago and put on about ten or 15 pounds. And I'm not saying a word, even though I'm not saying anything. But one day she finally says, how could I maybe lose some weight? I feel like I'm gaining a lot of weight since menopause. And I said we could try this. Are you saying I'm fat? I'm like, no, you asked me my opinion. But what we did is we just added protein to her diet in the morning, which helped curb her typically high carbohydrate meal in the afternoon. So I just added in berberine and 20 grams of tonin, the 2 grams of additional leucine. She's lost about six pounds in about six weeks, which she's thrilled about, and that's without any hormone treatment. So she is going to examine maybe some low hormone treatment, including testosterone. I think women underestimate the need for testosterone because you don't just lose estrogen, you lose all of the hormones, including testosterone, which is highly anabolic. And Vanessa brought up a lot of good points. That protein itself is thermogenic, but when you have more muscle mass, you're burning more calories effortlessly because those muscles require a high caloric intake, you're able to do more exercise. But at the end of the day, what you're also doing when you're kind of starving yourself is you're losing your muscle mass and making it harder for your body to lose the fat because you're burning muscle mass and fat equally. When your body is in that sort of starvation mode, if you were to increase your fast to 22 to 24 hours, I think your body would just kind of go into starvation mode and you get what's called skinny fat, right, where you might not be necessarily overweight, but you might not have the muscle mass you need. And we know that as you age, muscle mass, particularly post menopause, is so important for both men and women over the age of 50 to predict their overall health span and their longevity. So I think this is a great timing. It seems like you're gaining some weight with what you're currently doing, I don't think extending your fast is going to do any good. And I know Vanessa has several studies that have also suggested that fasting with additional protein actually has better output in terms of body composition and weight loss. Or at least body composition and fat loss, I should say. Sometimes we get weight and fat confused. It's definitely from the research I've seen that she shared the way to go, I think this is the perfect time to try it. I would definitely go that route.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm excited to hear how it goes. If you end up trying that, I think that it would be great. If you want to share, report back and see how it's going. And I definitely recommend getting body composition scans done, like now at this point when you're starting and then checking back. Because oftentimes what happens with a lot of the people that I've worked with or hear from, their weight usually stays the same, or it goes up a little on the scale, but it's because they're burning fat and they are either retaining more muscle or gaining some muscle. So, like with your wife's story, I'm betting that six pounds is, like, all fat, and that's a huge amount of just pure body fat to lose, a fat mass to lose, and probably cut down her body fat percentage by a lot. And it's really motivating when you have a Dexa body scan, say, every six months. So, like, do it now. I would recommend doing one now. Just Google Dexa scan near me and do one in six months or in twelve months. And I think you'll be really happy with the progress that you see. Just to know also how much lean body mass you have is great. The scans usually tell you what your resting metabolic rate is, and then you can figure out how many calories to eat at maintenance. I just find it so motivating to get those done.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I agree.

Vanessa Spina:
All right, so our next question comes to us from Marissa, and she says, can you please address isolucine restriction as it relates to longevity? I understand that is a major factor for muscle protein synthesis, but there is also evidence that restriction is beneficial.

Scott Emmens:
So this is a great question. And I actually took the time to look up the study that was connected from Marissa. We could put that in the show notes. It was a study done in mouse, and I just want to take a moment to delineate between isolucine and leucine. Leucine. Isolucine and valine are considered your branch chain amino acids, and they're typically sold in a ratio of two. One. One meaning two of leucine, one of isolucine, one of valine. This study looked at restricting just isolucine, but not leucine, and not valine, just restricting the isolucine, which is not what is in tone and is not what we did. So when we created the leucine capsules, we deliberately did not go with a BCAA, we went with a leucine only capsule. So this study I found particularly interesting because it does suggest that by reducing the isolucine intake, but not the leucine or other amino acids, you have a lower glycemic index. And the mice, both their health span and longevity span increased. Now, I have not seen this data in humans, and I don't think we'll see it for quite some time, but the study in the mice was pretty compelling in terms of their blood sugar, their health span, their longevity and their overall seeming of performance by reducing the isolucine. So the beautiful part about what we're doing is it's just the leucine, right? The leucine capsule and the leucine only. Now, whey protein does have isolucine in it, but not nearly enough that, I think, is going to kind of bump this. Beyond this, I don't have any human data to suggest what that gram per day is. But even in the essential amino acid we created, we went again high on leucine, moderate to low on isolucine, and then actually higher on lysine and some other amino acids in the formula that we've created. So there does seem to be some science behind this, which means you may want to go with just the leucine caps and or the tone protein in leucine caps. And check out our ea blend when that comes out. And for me, though, the other thing I read, I read some additional studies that were linked to this study. It also showed that if you're exercising, particularly weight resistance exercising, that all of these isolucine issues were basically null and void. Right. So as long as you're doing not significant, moderate amounts of both cardio, but in particular weight resistance training, that the isolucine didn't seem to have nearly the impact it did in a non active mouse or non active person. So the studies that I'm referring to were in humans that showed. No, actually, I'm sorry, they were in mice that showed that if the mice were doing active physical workouts, difficult workouts, the isolucine had no impact on their overall longevity or health.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I always go back to the fact that you could add on a few years, maybe live a little bit longer, if your ultimate goal is just to live the longest. But what do you want your quality of life to be at that point? For me, I want to be strong and healthy and vital and energized, and I don't want to just be living as long as possible, but frail. So when it comes to restricting certain amino acids, restricting protein, turning off mtor, which, switching off mtor, which a lot of people are doing with things like rapamycin, I don't know if it's the best idea. If you want to be strong and you want to be running around and enjoying your life as much as possible, I'm okay with not living an extra two years and being frail and unable to do anything. We've all seen family members in that situation, and I don't think it's a really high quality of life. So I'd rather have a higher quality of life and maybe live a year or two less than I possibly could by restricting myself. Like I could fast every day and maybe add on some more time. But what's the point if I have no real muscle mass left and I can't get myself up from the floor or a chair or anything like that, you really want to think about, I think, your quality of life. So there's definitely a lot of research showing that protein restriction, amino acid restriction, mtor suppression can add more years to the lives of rodents. But what is the quality of those years? What's the health span? So I think it's a trade off. I do personally do extended fast a few times a year for autophagy, and there's definitely suppression of mtor that happens then, but it's so tiny, minuscule even compared to my everyday life, where I'm optimizing for optimal protein intake, for taking in all the amino acids to help me stay strong and just go after all my dreams and live the life that I want to. And ultimately, that's what it comes down to for me, is that there are trade offs, and you have to choose which ones you want to optimize for.

Scott Emmens:
It's kind of paradoxical, because every single bit of data we have supports that. Lower leg strength, grip strength, lean muscle mass. All of those are in the top five predictors of both health and lifespan as we age. So it's paradoxical to me that this lower protein concept and this low, eat low calories and you'll live longer. But yet, to your point, you might be living a very frail life and if you do happen to have a slip or a fall and you break a hip because you don't have any muscle mass, you're toast. But you can look this up on Google. You can find dozens and dozens of studies on grip strength, leg strength, lean muscle mass, overall body, always, always in the know five things that are going to predict your longevity and your health span. So it's just a weird paradox to me that this low protein concept or low caloric intake concept over lengthy periods of time works. And there was a monkey study done in, like the, forget it was chimpanzees or what type of primate it was, or monkey, but the monkeys that lived longer were basically kind of miserable and gray, and they didn't look good and they weren't happy. It wasn't a great life. They might have lived six months longer. But to your point, Vanessa, not a great life. So I'm with you on both. Have a healthier health span and maybe give up a year or two. But I'm not sure that that data is going to pan out in the long run because I just see too much data to support muscle strength. Lean muscle mass is critical for longevity and health span.

Vanessa Spina:
Not surprised that we're on the same page about this. And, yeah, I think it's a great question. I think it's definitely something to definitely keep in mind and consider. And the research on life extension and caloric restriction for that is pretty compelling. But again, how do you want the quality of those years to be? And like you said in that those primates sounded like they were not too happy just existing like that.

Scott Emmens:
But as this particular question relates, it was specific to isolucine. So to me, I don't have much of an issue reducing isolucine. I'm going to do a little more digging into it, because if I'm getting my leucine and then just enough isolucine to keep my total protein complete, I wouldn't be opposed to that. Because, again, I think leucine is your main player. As long as you have enough isolucine and complete protein, I think you're fine. So I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, because by limiting that one amino acid, if it does help, great. I think we're on the same page with just generally more protein. Keeping your muscle mass is the best option.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. All right, so our next question comes to us from Stephanie, and she says, what are your thoughts on taking mineral supplements? Specifically, I've been hearing oodles of information on folvic and humic acids. Just wondering, geez, there are so many supplements out there, it's really hard to know what to take and if we even need minerals.

Scott Emmens:
So, yes, we absolutely need minerals. Minerals, I think, get a bad rap in terms of, because they're sort of kind of thought of as basic. People don't recognize all the different minerals and how important they are. Fulvic acid and humic acid are great ways to get small amounts of trace minerals and modest amounts of some of your larger minerals. Get about 70 to 75 in a fulvic acid. Between 80 and 85 in a humic acid. They're very closely related. You do have to source it properly because they're generally kind of dug up from salts and dirt. I shouldn't say dirt, but basically out of the earth. Right. And so you want to make sure you're getting a high quality source that's not contaminated and it's tested. But those are really good ways to get a lot of nutrients and minerals that you wouldn't otherwise get. Another great way to do it is a multivitamin that has all of your main minerals and your trace minerals. And just to emphasize how important minerals are. So we've all heard about magnesium, right? They're saying now upwards of 600 different enzymatic processes are conducted by magnesium. That is a remarkable amount. You can't make your neurotransmitters properly without magnesium. Zinc is also required for dna, for wound healing. Copper is required for collagen synthesis, wound healing. Let's see. You've got boron that helps with your bone structure. That also helps with some brain function. And fertility. And testosterone in men. Fertility for women. And testosterone and fertility for men. But definitely it's a factor in strong bones. You've also got selenium, which is very important for your immune system. So are minerals important and do we need them? Absolutely. And I think we probably have more of a mineral deficiency in this country than we could possibly imagine. Way beyond just magnesium. We know we're monocropping and our soils are really deplete of minerals. I take a multimineral every day, plus a trace mineral. And I often will seek out products that have a little folvic acid or humic acid in it. Although it's not been my go to because I try to look at a simple way to get multivitamins or multiminerals in like a multivitamin, for example, makes it simple. Or I bought a few products that I'm looking to create that have all the minerals I want in them, along with some trace minerals. So yes, minerals are exceedingly important on their own, right? But then they also act as cofactors for all kinds of things. Protein synthesis, muscle recovery, as electrolytes, which is very important for your heart rate and your brain function and your neurotransmitters. I could go on and on, but yes, they're very important. And I think a wide spectrum general multi mineral will get the job done for the average person. And if you want to go with sulvic humic acid, I think that's a great way to start.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing all of that. Now, we have one last question on today's episode from Lori on Facebook, if you'd like to read it.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely, Lori, thanks for the question. I'd love ideas on how to firm up my skin after weight loss. After the age of 50, I wish I could afford a juve, but are there any more affordable options? Well, absolutely there are. So the first one I'll mention is our wonderful host. Vanessa has multiple red lights now, and I think others in development, and she's got really high quality panels. It matters what the power of those are, it matters what the depth is, and it matters what the nanometers are of those lights. And Vanessa's done all of that research to give you a really affordable, great quality, long lasting product. So I would highly recommend that there are other products you can use for different applications. I do also, beyond Vanessa's panel, also use some pads for my daughter. For example, she runs division one track, so sometimes she'll get like a cramp on her lower back. And I just bought her like this high powered sort of belt that goes around her back so she can get that, or it wraps around her hamstrings if she's having some hamstring issues. And that's really because I know my daughter's not going to take the time to put the panel on. And if I can just strap it on her and let her walk around with it, she's going to use it. So it really depends on what your use is. But there are a lot of other brands. But I would start with Vanessa's because I know she's done the research and I know it works. I wish I could afford a Juve, too, but I don't think it's any better than the products you can get for much less money. I think the big advantage is it's a giant full body board. They're a great company, but I don't think I could afford $1,500 mat. So I'll pass on that. She also said other ideas, so I don't know if you have other ideas on firming up skin, maybe hyaluronic acid or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So a couple of things. Thank you so much for mentioning the tone Lux line of red light therapy panels. I created them with love, and we definitely love Juve on this podcast. They've been a sponsor for years, and they have amazing full body panels. You also have a lot of alternatives out there. You can check out the tomlex line that I created as well. And there's a lot you can do with a half body panel. You can pretty much target your whole body with a half body panel without needing to have a full body panel. But I have a couple of things that I love. So I think the number one thing that I wish I had learned when I was younger, well, there's two. The first is exfoliation that I actually have been doing for a long time. So once or twice a week, I use a scrub on my face, because one of the main ways to keep your skin looking youthful is to get rid of the old skin cells. So if you use a scrub on your face, there's some great ones out there. You will help your body in clearing out those dead skin cells and help that cellular renewal on your skin. So that one I do and have been doing for a long time, the one that I wish I knew about earlier was serums, because I always thought that moisturizer was what you needed. But actually moisturizer helps you keep and lock moisture in. But what's really helpful is using serums. So vitamin C serums, retinoid serums, serums with retinol in them if you're not pregnant. Of course, I haven't been using the retinol ones, but I'm looking forward to using them again as I get back into my routines. And they can be really powerful, really helpful. I interviewed this amazing plastic surgeon, Dr. Anthony Yoon, and he really was explaining this to me about the power of retinoids and just vitamin C serum. So after cleansing the skin in the morning and night, using some toner if possible, he says it's not necessarily necessary, but definitely using a serum and that really helps, that actually improves your skin, whereas putting a moisturizer, which you do after that is more for comfort. And I think a lot of people have that twisted, like I did for so long. I thought, well, moisturizer makes your skin more moist and more hydrated, but it doesn't. It just locks it in. So it's a good idea to use moisturizer on your body and skin after you shower. When you have a lot of moisture there, you can lock that in. But in terms of actually having beneficial effects, the serums are really important. And the last thing that I do is I mentioned I do a couple of extended fast throughout the year. I find that that is amazing for autophagy. And my skin always feels and looks incredible. And the autophagy really is clearing out those dead skin cells, not only inside our bodies, but also on the skin surface. And so making sure that you have no contraindications for that, if that's something you're interested in, you can definitely get a lot of benefits. You have to be careful. Talk to your care provider, make sure if you're on medication, especially because your levels of medication can change a lot if you're doing an extended fast. But once a year, a 36 hours, two, three day, up to four or five days can do amazing things for not just the whole body. We were talking about how so many of the biohacks that we do today, it's really just to get back to homeostasis, to get out of our own way. And once in a while, I do like those for the skin. I think it can be beneficial, but you really don't want to overdo it. You don't want to go into too much proteolysis and break down your muscle and lose your hard earned muscle. And if you're in a situation where you don't have that much lean body mass or your low body weight, it's probably not the best idea either. So those are just a few things, and I think that they can be really beneficial. And of course, the red light therapy I'm obsessed with. And it's why I recently launched the Telnex crystal red light therapy mask, because it is amazing. There are so many powerful benefits to these different wavelengths of light, especially in the red, near infrared and orange spectrum of the sun. But you can get that therapeutically without the harmful rays that come from the sun. That can actually create sunspots or exposure. And I'm all about getting good amount of sun exposure, but not overdoing it. It's so great for vitamin D and forgetting all those wavelengths. But you have to also, if you overdo it, you can end up with sunspots like I did. I have a couple, and I'm using the crystal mask to help with that. And I'm noticing some big improvements. And I've gotten so much feedback from people who've purchased the tone Lux Sapphire panel who've purchased some of the other panels that their dermatologists are saying, wow, I'm seeing major improvements. So that's like the best validation for me, that the panels are powerful and effective, and it just makes me so happy when I get feedback like that. So thanks again for mentioning those, and thanks again for the wonderful question. We had so many fantastic questions between these two episodes. I so appreciate you being here, Scott, taking the time to answer and opine and share your expertise and knowledge with the guests. So thank you so much for being here and for joining us today. Where can everyone connect with you and follow you online and maybe even connect with you if they have a question?

Scott Emmens:
Well, thank you so much for having me. I always learn a ton. Like I said, I really enjoy getting these questions. They're always really well thought out and very specific, and it really helps keep me informed, and it's my pleasure to help people help themselves. So thank you for having me. If you'd like to reach out to me directly, you can do so on Instagram @longevityprotocol. I also have an account called collagen guru, but I don't check that one that often. But longevity protocol is my main Instagram handle. You can also reach me through our website, mdlogic health. That's www.mdlogichealth.com. If you just go to the contact us and know. I'd like to speak to Scott Emmons about such and such. I don't necessarily take questions just in general, but if you have a specific reason that you're reaching out about a product or something that you'd like to partner with us on, you can reach me there. Or my Dm on Instagram are the two best ways to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Well, thanks again, Scott, for being here. I really, truly appreciate it and I had such a wonderful time and appreciate all the brilliant questions that we received. So thank you to all of you. Now you can catch up with me and follow me on Instagram at Ketogenic Girl. And you can also check out the Optimal Protein podcast, and you can check out the tone device, the tone luxe red light therapy line that I created@ketogenicgirl.com, and we will link everything in the show notes for you all, as usual. So sending you all so much love. Thanks for being here, and we'll catch you guys on the next one.

Scott Emmens:
Much appreciated. Take care. Bye. Vanessa, thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 11

Episode 356: Special Guest: Glenn Livingston, Ph.D., Cravings, Bingeing, Overeating, Variable Ratio Intermittent Reinforcement, Mindful Eating, Extinction Curve Timeline, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 356 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get Chicken Thighs, Ground Beef, or Steak tips for a YEAR for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get chicken thighs, ground beef, or steak tips for a YEAR for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Go to Defeat Your Cravings for a free copy of Defeat Your Cravings!

The lessons learned since the first book

What is "the pig"?

Loving yourself thin?

Mindful eating myth

Food rules and rebellion

Intermittent fasting

Extinction curve timeline

Eating by design

Hacking your cravings

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 356 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends, this is a very special episode today with Dr. Glenn Livingston. We don't even remotely touch on everything in his book, which is such a valuable resource. I cannot recommend enough. Everybody get it. And it's completely free, which is insane. So just go to freecravingsbook.com.

Melanie Avalon:
That's freecravingsbook.com. You can download the book completely free. It is such a valuable tool. It goes into the science of cravings, the science of overeating and bingeing, provides step by step plans to tackle the inner voice, your inner pig, that's telling you to eat all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
It has troubleshooting recovery plans, refutations for everything your inner pig might say and all the excuses it might make. So many things cannot recommend it enough. Freecravingsbook.com. Pause the podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Go download it now. You will not regret it. All right. Now enjoy this fabulous conversation with my dear, dear friend, Dr. Glenn Livingston. Hi friends, welcome back to the intermittent fasting podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode 356. And this is a very, very special episode, very long time coming. I am here with my dear, dear friend, Dr. Glenn Livingston friends. I have talked about Glenn so much on this show.

Melanie Avalon:
So a lot of you are probably already familiar through me mentioning it or through reading his prior work. Glenn is the author of a book that had thousands of reviews about overeating issues, binging issues, craving issues.

Melanie Avalon:
And since then he has released a new iteration of the book, updated it, added the latest science, added his latest thoughts. And I cannot recommend enough this book. It is called Defeat Your Cravings, The Back Door to Weight Loss.

Melanie Avalon:
And friends, the reason I've talked about Glenn so much on this show before is because he has a, if you're not familiar with it, a paradigm shifting mindset approach tool technique thing, which I'm sure we'll talk about in order to really address those moments of food temptation and cravings, especially with you guys doing intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
You might have these moments where you really want to eat these things that you're used to eating or that you're craving. And Glenn has a brilliant, simple, effective method that has helped so many people.

Melanie Avalon:
I personally have implemented it. Glenn, we were talking right before this about how we got connected, which was through your publicist, I believe. But did you know, I'd been reading your books way before that.

Melanie Avalon:
Did you know that? I've been following you for years. I did not know that. Yeah. Since like 20, when did you publish your first book? What year?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
2015.

Melanie Avalon:
Since then. Really? Yeah. Because I can remember where I was when I first read your book and it was in the apartment that I lived in like 2016. So right after that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm honored. You were a very young lady at that time.

Melanie Avalon:
I was. Those were the days.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You still look pretty young, lady.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Thank you. Wow, that's crazy. And even at that time, when I read it, it had a lot of... I mean, that was in the beginning and it had a lot of reviews and a lot of fanfare. So, I'm super curious.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, we need to talk about your system and everything, but this new book, Defeat Your Cravings, what inspired you to write it? Well, I think it's a great book.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The whole system, I wrote the first book, which had almost 20 ,000 reviews now, I think, in 2015 while I was getting divorced, basically about how I personally overcame overeating. It was different than the standard approach out there, although I've come to learn that it actually resonates with what the evidence says works for overcoming overeating, which is cognitive behavioral therapy and maybe some SSRI medication.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I wrote it in the absence of a deep knowledge of the science of cravings formation and extinction. Since I wrote that book, I've had experience with over a million readers of the first book and over a million readers in psychology today, and over 2 ,000 paying clients who came through my group and individual programs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I feel like I have a much more comprehensive understanding of how to overcome overeating now than I did way back when. Also, Melanie, while I was getting divorced, I was in a pretty angry state of mind, and I feel like it came through in the book.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I wrote it like a pissed -off middle -aged guy getting divorced. I think that in some ways, that's why it became so popular because it was a radically different way of looking at it's a tough love approach to taking control of your own mind.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I don't think it had the same level of compassion that I really have for over -readers. I also don't think it was nearly as comprehensive or doctor -like. Like I am a psychologist. I do think in a comprehensive way, and there are pieces and parts that come together.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The old book was really about fixing your thinking to stop overeating and how I fixed my thinking by keeping a journal, and it took me a while. And then we worked with all these clients, and I had all these coaches working with me.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We got really good at fixing people's thinking quickly. But what would happen is, I can give examples of all this if you want to, but what would happen is, no matter how well I help people to disempower their excuses about overeating, they would still get to this point where they said, screw it, just do it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I know you can't really start tomorrow because tomorrow never comes. If you say start tomorrow and you eat a bar of chocolate, that you're going to reinforce both the craving and the thought about starting tomorrow.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So you are more likely to say start tomorrow again tomorrow and have a stronger craving. And so you can only ever use the present moment to be healthy, and if you're in a hole, you better stop digging.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That would be an example of fixing your thinking. And that's what the whole old program was about. But it was very, very effective. We got by like 2022, we were to the point that after one month, people would have reduced their overeating self -reported episodes by about 89 .4%.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But if the six -month market was more like 55% and the year market was a little lower, and that really bothered me, and I don't know if I'm giving you a long -winded answer to your very first question.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so then we saw the screw it, just do it, response, and that's when I realized I had to update the book and put in everything I knew about overcoming that response, which has more to do with overcoming organismic distress and understanding the science of craving that it does with fixing your thinking.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So that's why I wrote the new book.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I did not know that about you going through. I knew about your divorce, but I didn't know that that was during that time of writing that first book. I can totally see the change in tone in the second one.

Melanie Avalon:
I loved how you go deep into the science of everything in this new iteration. I thought it was so fascinating. And that's so interesting about that second phase response. So now, because you open the book with a really, you know, it sounds like a pipe dream, salesy, almost too good to be true.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you really help 85% now perpetually?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We don't have data on the perpetual level. We just opened the new program a couple of months ago. So I could tell you that it's more. It's, I don't have a statistically reliable sample yet, but I can tell you that it's more.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That's what I can tell you. And just, you know, anecdotally, qualitatively, my experience in working with people like this is that it's easier to hold onto than just fixing your thinking.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So I'm trying to decide because I have so many specific nuanced questions about the approach, but can we just tell listeners a little bit about the actual concept? So what is the pig?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Let me first say, I had a very serious over -reading problem myself that I tried everything you could imagine to fix it for about 20 years. I come from a family of 17 psychotherapists, and when something breaks in the house, everybody knows how to ask it, how it feels, and nobody knows how to fix it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so, for the first 20 years of my trying to overcome over -reading, I was trying to love myself then. I thought there was a hole in my heart, and if I could fix that hole in my heart, then I could probably fix the hole in my stomach, or I wouldn't have to keep trying to fill the hole in my stomach.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I went to a psychologist and psychiatrist, and over it is anonymous, and I cried and I screamed, and I had a spiritual journey, and it made me a very soulful person, but it really didn't fix the problem.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I get a little thinner and a lot fatter every time I tried something new. And during that time, I was also consulting for industry. I was married to a woman who commuted, who traveled for business most of the week, and I had time for a second career.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I was a child and family psychologist with a big practice, but I also started doing advertising research for the food industry and the pharma industry, but most of the food industry. And in the course of doing that, while I was going through all of these love yourself thin rituals, I started to notice that they were spending millions of dollars to get these rocket scientists to engineer hyperpalatable concentrations of starch and sugar and fat and salt and exciter toxins, and it was all geared at hitting the bliss point in the reptilian brain without giving you enough nutrition to feel satisfied.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And eventually, looking at that got through to me, it made me realize that maybe it's not about the fact that my mama dropped me on my head or her mama dropped her in her head or that she didn't love me enough or she was going through something of her own when I was little.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Maybe it has more to do with what these big companies are doing and they're hitting these evolutionary buttons and creating addiction. And the hitting these evolutionary buttons that exist in the reptilian brain, it's not the higher brain where love lives and long -term goals and achievement live and strategic planning and rational thinking.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They're hitting our primitive survival buttons. And I eventually thought to myself, maybe I need a more of a tough love approach. Maybe you can't really love yourself thin because the part of the brain that they're targeting doesn't really know love and kind of bringing you up to speed about what is the pig.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I did something a little crazy. I decided that I had to create a kind of tripwire. If I was going to be the alpha wolf of my own brain when this lower part of my brain was trying to take control, I said, I need to create a kind of a tripwire so that I know when it's active.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so I would make a rule, like I will never have chocolate on a weekday again. And that way, if I was in a Starbucks and there was a big old chocolate bar on the counter, and it was calling to me and I heard a little voice in my head that said, you know what, Glenn, you worked out hard enough and you're not going to gain any weight if you have a couple of ounces of chocolate.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Go ahead and start your silly rule tomorrow. Let's just get some of the chocolate right now. Yippee, feed me. I would say, wait a minute, that's not me. That's my inner pig squealing for pig slap. And chocolate is pig slap on a Wednesday.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I don't eat pig slap. And I don't let farm animals tell me what to do. And Melanie, I was not going to teach this. I was not going to publish this. This was a very private thing internally. I will tell everyone you don't have to call it a pig.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You can call it a food monster or anything that's just a little bit aversive to you that you don't want to take control. But you do need to have something that wakes you up at that moment of impulse and makes you say, well, wait a minute to hear who's in charge because you're going to need to research yourself at that point.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if you think that you need to love yourself more at that point, it's going to leave you very vulnerable to the to the pig taking control. So what I'd done back then was I established a tripwire and it would wake me up and I'd have these extra microseconds to make a better choice.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I wouldn't always make the right choice. I wasn't instantly cured, but sometimes I did more so than I did before I made the tripwire. And over time, I experimented with different rules. I would start to fix what the pig was saying.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So if it said, you know, oh, one bite is not going to make a difference, I would say, well, it's never just a bite. And one bite is the difference between whether you're in charge or I'm in charge, which is a totally different way of life.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a difference between making important food decisions with my head and my intellect versus making them with my emotions and whims and impulses. And so, you know, one bite is a tragedy. And I would disempower that thought.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And over the course of about eight years, I got better by fixing my thinking about food, fixing my thinking about food. So that's what the pig is. The pig is the, it's the sum total of all the thoughts that suggest you're going to break very specific rules that you lay out for yourself.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, we define it as that, which is also a good definition of your lower self. And then you are all the, all the thoughts and feelings that suggest that you're going to stick to your plans. And by, by accomplishing that separation, what I know now that we're, we were doing was interfering with the automatic habit loops that the brain is so good at implementing in order to acquire calories and nutrition.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It just opened up the space between stimulus and response where I could start to, I could start to have an impact, whereas nothing else did. When I would be thinking about, you know, like earlier on I'd be thinking about, well, maybe I really need a hug or maybe I need to cry about, you know, what my mother did to me when I was a kid or, you know, maybe I need to assert myself in some way with someone that bothered me when I was thinking about all these emotional needs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It didn't give me the clarity to figure out the choices that I could make. And also there's, those emotional needs are pretty hard to fulfill. And it's, it's hard to fix the traumas that you went through as a kid.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And it's hard to, you make yourself dependent upon, dependent upon what happens with these other people in relationships if you feel like you've got to solve all of those conflicts before you stop with reading.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
When I just started focusing on that space between stimulus and response and what I could do, that's when I started to get better.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love two big myths that you dismantled there. One is the loving yourself, then the emotional role of it. And you even mentioned in the book, you said that you talk about how your work with clients and how some clients do still insist on starting with the emotional work first.

Melanie Avalon:
And you say that when that's the order that less than half of the time, are they ultimately successful and everything? But you also draw attention to the fact that people can still, you know, work on their emotional connection and the reasons and everything, but it's not like the actionable step that you can implement now that can actually make the change and change the habits and, you know, address those habit loops.

Melanie Avalon:
So, so effective.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I remember a guy that told me that if I really wanted to know what my psychological traumas were, that I should stop overeating and then I would know, as opposed to trying to fix all my traumas before I stopped overeating.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Right? And it's true. If you, the brain has difficulty conducting the emotions when the digestive system is overloaded with food. And so when you're constantly overeating, you're not really aware of all the thoughts and feelings surrounding your traumas.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So it actually works better to focus on these very practical techniques to stop overeating and then go hire a good therapist to help you with them or psychologist or psychiatrist to help you process the traumas.

Melanie Avalon:
And then sort of related the second huge paradigm shift myth busting that happens. There's the whole mindful eating world. And there's this idea that we should be able to mindfully eat these foods in small amounts.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's funny because I listened to so many podcasts. And I was listening to a podcast once, and I got so angry, which kind of says something about me. Like, clearly, I was being triggered by the episode, so I'm not sure what that means.

Melanie Avalon:
But basically, the girl being interviewed was making this very elaborate case for why we should always be able to eat a little bit of anything. And if we don't, if we feel like we're not able to, or if we have like a quote restriction rule around it, that means that we are not in touch with ourselves.

Melanie Avalon:
And it means that we, you know, it means there's work still for us to do if we can't have just like a little piece of the chocolate. When for me, I'm like, well, chocolate, I don't really have a problem with.

Melanie Avalon:
But if it's like Fun Fetti Cake, if I have one piece of that, it's not food. It's like a processed drug thing that is programmed to make me crave it and want it more. So I don't feel like I should have to mindfully eat that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, what are your thoughts on mindful eating?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, I think 100 ,000 years ago, we wouldn't have needed food rules and we could have eaten when we were hungry and stopped when we were full. And I think that eating mindfully is a good idea, but it's not sufficient to help you eat healthy in today's modern food environment.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So the food industry is manufacturing things which can turn off your ability to know when you're hungry and full. And I mean, literally there are, you know, hormone, there's hormone interference in some of the packaging.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so if what you're eating has broken your ability to know when you're mind, when you're hungry and full, then how can you rely on your ability to know when you're hungry and full entirely to control it?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So my metaphor would be more like driving. I think it's really important to drive mindfully to be present while you're driving and pay attention. But you also need to pay attention to the lights and the stop signs and the yield signs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And, you know, in a city without stop signs and yield signs and traffic lights, you wouldn't really, really be safe to drive around. So I think that the controls actually expand your freedom and make it possible to navigate a larger radius of locomotion.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, have the free flow of commerce and socialization in a city or, you know, like the metaphor we go back to making it possible to enjoy more foods and more taste satisfaction and more freedom.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I think that the rules make it possible to do that versus the you've got to be able to eat everything approach. Some people respond negative. Well, let me see one more thing about it before I go into how some people respond.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I think that a good food rule is like a kitchen knife and you could use it to over restrict or you could use it to chop vegetables. So I don't think the problem is the knife. I think the problem is the way that the rules are used.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I mean, I would refer that people use it to chop vegetables. Some people are overtaken by a feeling of rebelliousness and response to rules. And so either they make rules that are way too strict. And, you know, like if you say, I'm only going to eat 500 calories a day, your survival systems are going to be on overload, trying to press you to have a lot more.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And they're going to say, forget about your silly rule. So it's really hard to maintain that. You know, so there's some rules you can't make. I always joke and say you couldn't make a rule that say I'll never pee again because your bladder is going to tell you otherwise.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You need to authentically nourish yourself. But let's just seem to have a reasonable rule. There are some people who are thrown by the rebellious feelings that the rules engender. And I would say that the goal in my system is to sever the link between all emotions and overeating and make important food decisions with your head.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And rebellion is just another emotion. Why do you want to reify the rebel inside of you? Or can't you just understand that as another emotion, like anxiety or anger or, you know, or sadness or... You don't need to eat because you feel too angry.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You don't need to eat because you feel too sad. You don't need to eat because you feel too anxious. Why do you have to eat because you feel too rebellious? Why can't you follow the rule anyway? So I'm in favor of teaching people to eat by design rather than to eat on impulse.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I have a disagreement with the mindfully community that it says that you have to allow all foods. I do have a disagreement with that. I think it's very possible to use rules to be over restrictive. And if you are physically over restrictive, your body will rebel for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Those aren't the kind of rules that we encourage people to make. We actually try to get people to make weight loss kind of a secondary goal. And the first goal is to have a normal, calmer, easier, more peaceful relationship with food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, where you're flooding your body with nutrition and a slight caloric deficit if you want to lose weight and you're not going through these tremendous ups and downs. And really the primary purpose is to be able to make decisions about foods and foods behaviors that were previously under the control of your impulses and emotions instead.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So does that answer your question?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And you know what's really interesting? It's actually, well, first of all, I'm very much a rules -oriented person. So to me, it works really well right off the bat because I see rules as freedom.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I can live my life when I have the rules in place and you answer my question because I was gonna ask about people who are rebellious or have you read Gretchen Rubin's Fortunes?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you would like it. Are you familiar with it? A little. It's like basically, do you fulfill inner or outer or a blend or neither expectations? So which rules do you follow or which rules do you rebel against?

Melanie Avalon:
And she has it, four different types of people.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
as I can need to read that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, probably. I mean, it goes so well with your work. But interestingly, it's actually very similar. So the example you're making about the knife and how it's used, and then also the rules, it's actually very similar to me hearing it to intermittent fasting because you're basically setting up these rules about when you eat or don't eat.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not personal, it's not emotional, at least it's not supposed to be. Then you just exist within that frame. And anything during the fasting window, any voice you would hear telling you to eat is, it would be quote, pig squeal, with the assumption that those rules, those fasting rules aren't being made from an overrestrictive place.

Melanie Avalon:
So they aren't using the knife like you said to. What did you say? What was the bad way to use it?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, you could imagine bad ways to use a knife but just use a knife to chop vegetables. We find the best results when people start with a 12 hour window to begin with. And then after a couple of months, if they want to have a tighter window, then it can work out.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But you and I want to talk about this. And you explained to me why that might be. I just know that it is. I find that if people, unless they've been intermittent fasting for a long time or they're not eating a lot of processed food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I think that when people have been, especially if they've been binging or just eating a lot of bags and boxes and containers of stuff, I find that we do better if they'll start with a 12 hour window before they tighten that up.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Do you have thoughts about that?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see that working. And for a lot of people, easing in to intermittent fasting is the approach that really works for them. And I can see how, especially if they're coming from a sort of binging type background or overeating type background, that that would be, you know, a really powerful approach.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, then it wouldn't be just relying on intermittent fasting to, quote, fix everything. It's this really, really powerful mindset tool, you know, psychological tool that you've created. So, I mean, if it's working in your clients, sounds like a plan to me.

Melanie Avalon:
And 1212 is, I don't want to make assumptions, but I think a lot of people on the standard American diet eating system, if they haven't thought about it before and they were randomly asked how much do they eat during the day, they might think it's like 1212.

Melanie Avalon:
But when they've done studies where they actually see what people are eating, people are eating like constantly, like most people eat once they wake up and then they snack throughout the day and then they snack right before bed.

Melanie Avalon:
So most people aren't, you know, are not doing a 1212 thing. So, you know, that's a great place to start.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Okay, good. That's a good intersection of our work then. Melanie, you know that the last thing I want to see about them, the allow everything approach is that it does work for some people. I don't want to discourage people from doing that if it really works for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We get complaints from the people that come to us who that was working for. They'll say, I'm not binging because I allow everything. So I don't ever feel rebellious, but I don't feel like I can eat as healthy as I want to.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They're trying to achieve a higher level of health. And I think that's a benefit of our system is helping you to get there.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically they can use the system to make these new choices surrounding what they're eating within that mosaic of eating everything. Awesome. Awesome. And listeners, I really, really cannot recommend enough getting the book.

Melanie Avalon:
Just get it now. Get it now. If you've ever experienced anything with cravings or overeating or any struggles with food, it's crazy. I just think this is a reason that your work has had such an incredible response.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy how much people will identify with it. You get so specific and you list off things and it's like, oh yeah, I've literally heard that exact thing in my head. It's kind of like Taylor Swift.

Melanie Avalon:
How she relates to everybody for the people who like Taylor Swift.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The book is free on the website, by the way, for Ken O 'Nilkin PDF.

Melanie Avalon:
So you can get it free at freecravingsbook.com. Okay, get it now. Freecravingsbook.com. So I have a few questions, specific questions that I liked with content that you had in this book specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's been a while since I read your first one. I actually read a lot of, because you had quite a few. I've written eight books. Eight books, okay. I probably read, I probably read half of those probably.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Most of them were written in the early years though. I hadn't written a book since 2019.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, in the early years, I remember I read your first book and then I was like, oh, I got to read all of them. So but in any case, so I think the things I'm going to ask you about right now are new to this book, but they might have been touched on in previous books.

Melanie Avalon:
So one of the things I found so fascinating was you talk about the extinction curve timeline. So the actual process that well, first of all, you talk about the science of a habit and a craving and what the brain actually goes through.

Melanie Avalon:
And then when you stop indulging that, what the brain goes through and what that looks like and what that timeline looks like, which is probably very helpful to people because apparently it's got some twists and turns and you think you're you think you're through it and then you're not.

Melanie Avalon:
Was this the first time we're talking about the extinction curve timeline?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
This is the first thing I'm talking about it with you, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you talk about it in the previous books?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
No, no, no, we had a webinar once about it, but that's not available anymore.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so it was new. So one of the things I found so fascinating is, because I think a lot of times people will, you know, be working on a specific craving or not eating a certain food, and then they'll be doing pretty good, and then they'll wanna have it, you know, like a slip up, like just this one time, like it'll just be this one time, but even if it is just that one time, you point out the role of randomness and that if you, and I'll let you explain it better, but basically this idea that the uncertainty surrounding whether or not you're going to have something makes the brain want it even more.

Melanie Avalon:
So if you randomly do indulge, you're actually making it much worse, even if it's just that quote one time. I was wondering if you could expand on that a little bit more. I find this so fascinating.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Rather than jumping into the middle to make that one particular point, I'd like to give you some background about how cravings are formed and extinguished in the first place. And then it'll be easier to explain why randomly reinforcing a craving is about the worst thing you could do.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Is that okay? That's perfect. So let's start with the understanding that if you have a strong craving, if you have stronger cravings than other people, that's actually a sign that you have a healthier mind than other people, a healthier brain than other people, not a sick mind.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You need to know that 100 ,000 years ago, food was not nearly as abundant as it is now. And as a consequence, we had to work for it a lot. As a matter of fact, the bulk of our day was probably involved in sourcing and finding and motivating in ourselves to go find food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if we, if we didn't have strong cravings, we would have died because we wouldn't have been motivated to, you know, go hunt and gather and, you know, organize and bring food back and feed our family.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so the brain evolved this system for motivating us to do what was necessary to go find food. And it does that through the use mostly of dopamine. And it, it does that through the same mechanism to form the craving and extinguish the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So this is important also, because people think that they must be broken. They can form cravings, but they can't extinguish them. But it's not true. If you have a strong craving, it means your brain is working, which means that the extinction process will work also.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So that's very important to overcome any notion that your brain is broken like that. If you don't have lesions in your ventromedial hypothalamus, or, you know, if you haven't had a serious brain trauma, and sometimes even if you have it, it's very unlikely that you can't extinguish a craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Okay. So let's, let's imagine there is a caveman. I'll call him Thag, T -H -A -G, Thag. And I just like the name. It's a random. I love it. It's a really random name. And let's say that Thag is out looking for food and he sees a monkey.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And he follows a monkey to a banana tree. And Thag is so happy that he gorges himself on bananas. He would have eaten mass quantities because remember food was scarce back then. And it would have taken as many as he could back to his wife and family.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
What would then happen is that the next time Thag saw a monkey, his brain would secrete a bunch of dopamine and try to get Thag to follow the monkey because he was more likely to find food if he followed a monkey than if he was just randomly searching.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So the monkey had some utility. We'll call the monkey a food signal. And in today's modern environment, that would be akin to seeing a sign for a donut store or a hamburger place or, you know, a convenience store that you're familiar with, all of the branding and signage.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Their food signals also, they lead you to the acquisition of calories and nutrition and sometimes just calories. Now, suppose that I decide that I'm eating too many donuts. I'm stopping at this one particular donut store on the way home from work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I'm having three or four donuts every time. And so I'm developing a little punch and I decide I have to extinguish that. So I decide to make a rule that says, I will never stop for donuts on the way home from work again.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And what most people think will happen at that point, and I'm going to go back to Thag in a minute to explain why, but most people think what will happen is that you're going to have the worst cravings on day one.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's going to be hardest on day one. Then it'll be a little less hard on day two, a little less hard on day three, all the way until you get to the point that the donut store doesn't bother you anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But that's not actually what happens. What happens is you have a little honeymoon period right away. So it's actually easier than you think it's going to be for the first couple of days or exposures, which are an exposure is passing the donut store and not having the donut.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then the brain does something which is called an extinction burst. I call it the worthy effort of my donuts reaction. It says, I used to get donuts whenever I passed the store and I don't get donuts anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Where am I calories? See, the brain thinks that this is keeping you alive. It thinks that the acquisition of massive amounts of calories is necessary to keep you alive. It thinks you're going to die if you don't stop for donuts.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That's why this is so difficult. Why does it do that? Let's go back to Thag. Thag follows a monkey the next day, and at least to a tree with bananas, he's really happy. And then the next thing, and the next thing, and the next day, and it becomes a really solid habit.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
He gets so excited when he sees monkeys. But then one day, Thag follows a monkey. It's later in the season, the bananas will become scarce, and they get to a tree without any bananas on it. Thag was really sad and disappointed.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Many people think that at that point, in fact, his brain would give up and would stop motivating him to follow monkeys to trees. But what it does instead is it doubles down, it secretes even more dopamine, and makes Thag even more motivated to go follow monkeys to trees.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And the reason for that is that it would be more beneficial, more of a survival advantage, to hold on to a food signal, to find a monkey that led you to a tree with bananas 70% of the time, or 50% or even 20% of the time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It would still be a survival advantage as opposed to having no monkey at all. Your brain is a calorie acquisition machine, and when it's learned that there's a signal that makes it more likely you're going to find food than if you didn't have that signal, it doesn't wanna let go of that, and it's gonna motivate you to engage in the behavior that led to the calorie acquisition before.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So what that corresponds to in the extinction curve is this extraordinary effort to test whether the reward has become available at random. It's called intermittent variable ratio, intermittent reinforcement.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's like what happens with a slot machine. You don't know when it's gonna pay off. So you know you have to be there pulling the lever. This is why those little ladies get stuck at the Las Vegas slot machines, because they don't know when it's gonna pay off.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And sometimes they'll even fight if they go to the bathroom and someone takes their spot for a second. There's this feeling of compulsion that you have to get the reward. And that's you have to be there to get the reward.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You have to engage in the behavior to get the reward. And that's what the extinction burst or the worthy effort in my donuts reaction is about, your brain is testing to see whether the reward has become intermittently available at random.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Now, if you push through that, what most people do is they say, oh my God, this is too hard. And their inner pigs say, well, this torture is gonna last forever. You obviously can't do it. What most people do at that point is they give up and they reward the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They reward the food signal. And so now they've proven to the brain that it was intermittently available at random. And the brain goes, oh, good, I did the right thing. I generated this extinction burst.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I generated this horrible craving. And the extinction curve resets and people start to feel like they're powerless over the problem. But it's really just because they don't understand what's happening.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if you can tell yourself, you don't have to do anything about that craving. What you want to do is plan out these extinction curves, pick a very particular craving, plan out the extinction curve, and plan to take extra good care of yourself over the course of the whole curve.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So what reinforces people's willpower is having good enough nutrition and good enough sleep and good enough hydration and feeling like they're part of a tribe and they're not isolated and minimizing their other decisions they have to make over the course of the day.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And what you want to do is take this all very seriously. Don't go into battle wearing a plastic helmet. Tell yourself this is going to be hard. The brain doesn't want to give up the calorie acquisition learning, but you can push through it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Once you do, then you start to enter a more or less linear reduction in cravings. But the brain is going to throw out a couple of mini tantrums at the very end of the extinction curve. Somewhere around the 20 to 30 exposure mark, you're going to get a couple of little tries, little cravings for donuts.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you push through that and you allow you know, allow the full extinction curve to take place, you will then hardly be bothered at all because the brain will then say, okay, it's obviously a waste of energy to follow the monkeys.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's obviously just a waste of energy to get you all motivated when you see the donut sign. I'm going to label this as dormant. It's not gonna erase the craving. It's not gonna erase the learning because what if monkeys lead to banana trees again someday, but it's gonna label it dormant so it won't bother you unless and until you reinforce it again?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Does that make sense, Melanie? Yes, it does. So then, if you don't want to give up donuts entirely and two or three people are capable of doing this, and if you've gone too far down the, you know, the automation loop and you've dug too deep of a groove, then it might be you have to give up, but I give it up.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I find that two or three people can moderate rather than abstain. The way you do that is to very specifically bind the reward to a particular context.

Melanie Avalon:
I just love this concept so much.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
much? Well, yeah, because it makes it possible for you to have what you want without having to, you know, give up your freedom. We call it eating by design. So if you were to say, I will only ever have donuts on Saturday mornings after my workout and no more than two.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
What you're really doing is setting up a set of food signals that have to work in concert and your brain is smart. It knows how to recognize the particular contacts. It'll say, okay, I need to have experience the workout.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's got to be Saturday. It's got to be morning. And there's a limit of two. And it's kind of like if you were to have a slot machine in a casino that only paid off on Saturday mornings at 10am, the casino would be empty all week long.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The little old ladies would suddenly not be there after a week or two, they would not be there because it only paid off on Saturday. And then there'd be a mad rush on Saturdays. And so that's how cravings work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole. The last thing I would tell you about cravings, which is important, is that, well, two more things. One is that at the end of the extinction curve, when things are starting to be labeled dormant, a lot of people make the mistake of becoming overconfident and saying, I've got this.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So now let me try just stopping at random at the donut store again. And boom, they reset the extinction curve, they simulate the variable ratio, intermittent reinforcement schedule, and they're bringing lights up and reignites the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So once you break out of prison, don't go back to see your friends. If you want to re -experience the food, do it by design, don't do it at random because you're feeling cocky. Okay, the last thing to remember about cravings, I lie, there might be two last things.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But the most important last thing to remember about cravings is that they're tied to specific food signals. So let's say I go through 30 days, even 60 days, and I'm just really not bothered. I don't even think about stopping at the donut store on the way back from work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I don't, I don't, I don't obsess about it during the day. It's just not really part of my life. It's where I wanted to be. I'm really happy. And then I go to my mom's house. I haven't seen her for a couple of months and she invites me over for breakfast.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And there's a big old plate of donuts like she always has when I go for breakfast at mom's house. And I've got cravings like I've never had before. I'm thinking, what's wrong? I must have failed. This is too hard.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I must have failed. But you didn't fail. You succeeded at extinguishing the donuts from the donut store sign. You didn't succeed at extinguishing your mom's house on Saturday mornings, you know, when, when you go to her place and you hadn't been there in a while.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So as a practical matter, when you really want to, when you have a food that's troubling you or craving that's troubling you, you want to think about all of the different stimuli that it's attached to and make a plan for it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if there are infrequent stimuli like going to your mom's house that it's attached to, then you want to write yourself reminders like actually plan out an email to arrive to yourself just before you go into mom's house and what the day that you're going to be there in the day after.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And maybe in that email, it will remind you to eat a little more healthy food before you go. It reminds you what your pig is going to say and what's wrong with what your pig is going to say, like just a little more hurt.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then you'll, you write out the refutation for that, the answer to why the pig is wrong about that. It'll remind you to drink more water, it'll remind you to get a little more sleep. And then you can extinguish those exposures as well.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Don't get thrown if the craving comes back in response to another stimuli. Just understand it's a little bit like a game of whack -a -mole.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
These things are going to pop up because there are other stimuli that you won't have experienced. But if you keep whacking them down and keep going through the extension curves for them, you get to the point that they just don't bother you at all anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Your pig will say it's going to go on forever. As a practical matter, usually about 80% of cravings for a given substance is related to one or two daily food signals, and then the remaining 20% are with these infrequent signals that come over the course of time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That is, I think, the answer to your question.

Melanie Avalon:
Super amazing. Some quick follow -up questions. So that extinction curve timeline that you just went through, is it a set amount of time regardless of what the person is trying to tackle, or is it longer for some, shorter for others?

Melanie Avalon:
I know you talk about the role of the counterintuitive idea that it takes longer for cravings that we were more intermittently dealing with, compared to every day. So is there like a general amount of time that it takes, or is it random?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a number of exposures, not a specific amount of time. Most cravings are daily habits, and those can usually be extinguished in about 30 days, 30 exposures. If it's something you do every week, let's say you're playing poker every Saturday and you're eating pretzels every Saturday, that's gonna take longer.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That could take 30 weeks to get through. And so you're gonna need a little more support to do that. And so that's, so you'll set up emails and friends to call you and things for 30 weeks. So you can really get through that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So yeah, it's, I mean, and it also varies depending upon how long the craving was reinforced in the first place and how strong it is, but varies depending upon how pleasurable the experience was for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So these are principles, not hard and fast rules, but generally spanking for a daily habit, somewhere in the first four to 10 days, you're gonna have that extinction burst, which is the hardest part to get through.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then you're gonna have very strong relief right around the corner. And the only way out is through. You should be excited when you have the craving because the only way to kill a craving is to have a craving and not reinforce it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, and once you understand this, you kind of prioritize your extinction curve and get at it, man. There's no use dilly -dallying around. You can make this happen.

Melanie Avalon:
Nice. And if you do indulge, let's say you're at like day 29, does it reset to the very beginning or?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It kind of does. Yes. I mean, people have had the experience, so they'll find it a little easier to get through, but please don't shoot the messenger. Don't reset it at day 29, please. Please don't do that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, another question. You mentioned in the book and you mentioned it here as well, that cravings are never extinguished, they just go dormant. If you had a craving and you successfully went through the curve and now it's dormant and it's in the past, is there the possibility of having it again and not enjoying it as much for whatever reason and rewriting how your brain interprets that food item?

Melanie Avalon:
And the reason I'm asking, I'll just elaborate really quickly, is because when Jin used to host this show with me, we would often talk about Fun Fetty Cake because like I said, that's my thing. She would swear up and down that my food buds had changed and if I were to try it now, I would not like it.

Melanie Avalon:
And she said that she had tried things like that now and she didn't like them, like things she used to crave, that she no longer crave them and she could eat them now. I was like, nope, that's not me.

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, I know if I have it again, it will taste amazing. And yeah, and it did. I actually tried some gluten -free Fun Fetty Cake and it was like the most amazing thing I've ever tasted. I was like, okay, we're not going down this rabbit hole at all, but I feel like I did have something similar where I don't know the context of, it's really vague in my memory, but I feel like I had an experience where I did rehab something and I just didn't like it as much now and that actually helped me want it less.

Melanie Avalon:
So is there that possibility of retrying something from the past and actually having that help you not want it more or is it like once it's a craving, keep it in the past?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
There is that possibility. First of all, there is the possibility of going through the extinction curve. You know, like a lot of people will go through a 90 day period where they have no sugar, flour or alcohol.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But that's one of the best resets you could do if you're really struggling. Go through 90 days with no sugar, flour or alcohol and then look at the difference in how you're thinking and what rules you want to set and how you want to eat at the end of that versus the beginning.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a very freeing thing to do. And I've seen a lot of people do that and then say, I think that I will allow sugar once a week at a restaurant for one serving of dessert or something like that. A lot of times that's possible.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm not guaranteeing it. It's at your own risk. A lot of times that is possible, especially when people really study this stuff hard. So they're not part of what allows the habit automation loop to take hold is this idea of powerlessness or that it's a disease or if there's something wrong with you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And when you get rid of those ideas and you really understand what's going on, it's often possible to moderate something that you couldn't moderate before because you say, all that's happening is my brain's really excited.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm just, I really, really like this. That doesn't mean I have to do it. I can just extinguish it again. So I have seen people come up with conditional rules to bind their pleasures to certain contexts after needing to not have them at all for a long time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I feel like it's safer in most cases if you decided you didn't, you really couldn't have it. It's probably safer not to have it. But let's go to the specific question you're asking. Could you have a toxic experience with a previously pleasurable substance?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The answer to that is yes, because of the phenomenon of down regulation and up regulation. So your being is designed to avoid overloading your brain with stimulation if that stimulation is not relevant to the acquisition of what it wants.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
When I used to sleep underneath the subway, when I went to graduate school, my parents got me an apartment with these crazy pediatrics students that slept just about underneath the subway. And I could not understand how anybody slept.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But three weeks later, I didn't even hear the subway and I slept like a baby. And the reason for that is that my brain down regulated or habituated to the noise. It decided that stimuli was not relevant anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Let's say you really like super salty things that your desire for super salty things probably didn't occur. I'm sorry, let me back up for a second. The same process would happen if you would eat something salty every day.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Like if you eat something a little bit salty, it would be interesting then you put a little more salt on it, a little more salt on it. Because in order to get the same pleasure response from the salt, you need a little more, a little more, a little more because your brain is down regulating in the same way that it down regulated that's response to the subway.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Because it's not going to respond to salt in the way that it normally does. Okay, so now you get to the point that you're eating these nacho chips that have two grams of salt in them in a bag and you hardly even taste the salt.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It just tastes it tastes good to you, but not as good as the first time you had it maybe. And you need more and more salt to make it taste good. So you're eating super, super salty nacho chips, then you decide to extinguish that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you then go back 90 days later and you have one of those super salty nacho chips, it's going to taste too salty to you because over the course of that 90 days, your brain would have up regulated, it would have reestablished the responsiveness.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Just like if I went out to the country for a couple of months and then I went back and slept under the subway, I wouldn't be able to sleep again because my brain would have up regulated again. So provided that you went back and had the same level of intensity of stimulation, you would have a toxic experience and you wouldn't want that thing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I've experienced that with salty stuff. I stopped having salty soup. And then one day I decided I just give it a shot and I couldn't imagine how I ever got it in my body. So it can, but it depends upon a number of things.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that totally makes sense. I've definitely experienced that with salt as well. Salt's one where it's like very, at least for me, very telling, like, because I've gone through low carb keto periods where I was eating much higher salt and then cutting out the salt and then having it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm like, whoa, I don't have, how in the world was I eating this? The sweet thing though, I don't know that Fun Fetti cake. It's always, it's always gonna call to me. Well, something I also love in the book.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, I will just prefer listeners to the book because there's so much we didn't even remotely touch on. So, you know, you talk about, like I said, the specific squeals and how to refute them. And those are the ones where I think people will really resonate and be like, okay, I've literally heard that exact phrase in my head.

Melanie Avalon:
And here's how you can, you know, combat it. You talk about how to, how you can use all of this to actually create healthy habits that you want. So kind of like hacking the, you know, the variety and the randomness and everything to make yourself crave healthy foods.

Melanie Avalon:
You really read the book. Oh yes, oh yes. Most definitely, I loved it. It was so great. So much, like I said, so much science. I loved all the updates. You have your ritual mantra, your 100% optional tool people can use that they can possibly integrate if it resonates with them.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's completely free. Get it now, freecravingsbook.com. Completely free.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Press the big blue button.

Melanie Avalon:
press the big blue button. Is there anything you want to talk about specifically before we go from the book for listeners?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
just because we went into depth so much about the science of cravings that it's how to say one more thing about it. It's helpful to understand that it was so important to be able to locate food sources, that the brain has the capacity to form a new craving, a new automation loop, from one particularly unexpected, rich, and delicious experience.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just gonna ask that. I'm glad you're talking about this. Yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I had a friend in my 30s, his name was Hank, and once we went out to a diner and he took a bite of a sandwich, I think it was. And he said, Oh, Glenn, I can't eat this. This is too good. And Glenn, if it's too good, then it's no good.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That that was his understanding of how to avoid getting a craving. If he had something that was too delicious and unexpected, he knew his brain was going to start making him want to go to that diner all the time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so he decided right away that he wasn't going to do that. So if you find yourself having an unexpectedly delicious experience that you don't want, like I don't want to take anything away from you that you do want.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But if you feel like it's going to be trouble, then make a rule for it right away. Don't don't let it take hold. On the other hand, you can use that phenomenon to crave the things that you want to crave.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So if you research a half dozen or a dozen recipes that are entirely on your plan, like one of my favorite things is this vegan, flowerless, you know, cheeseless lasagna. I got it from Dr. Furman. And you have like a half a dozen or a dozen of those things, and you rotate them through your diet.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So you don't have them every day, or even every month, you allow, you know, allow yourself to wait for them. Then you're constantly having these unexpected, delicious experiences, and your mind will keep craving that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And it is an awful lot for the satisfaction on your plan. And that's one of the ways you can hack your brain to want the things you wanted to want to not want the things that you don't want it to want.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I love it so much. So if somebody had that delicious experience where they're like, oh no, this could be a problem, what sort of rule would they create around that?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, let's say it was a particular sandwich. It could be very particular. I feel like I will only ever have a half of this particular sandwich at such and such restaurant with my spouse on the weekends, right?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Or maybe it's just so strong, they feel like they can't deal with it at all. And so they'll say, I won't ever do that. It's up to you and it's a matter of judgment. And I have to interview people about their experience with it to really know what to tell them about that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I err towards conditional rules where you don't have to give things up entirely because people like more freedom than less, something like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I was going to say intuitively, I think the reason I really loved the binding concept is it's something I've historically done, like I would, without even realizing it, I would, especially when I was still fine tuning my diet and what I eat, I would say I could only have certain things on like a holiday and only on a holiday and not if it wasn't a holiday.

Melanie Avalon:
And then interestingly, the farther I got in life and time, then I didn't even want those things on the holiday. It's like the longer I went.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
A very common condition or rule people will make is, you know, I can have one serving at dinner, of any dinner I want, a one serving of dessert, of any dessert that I want on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I know I know a lot of people that do that. It works out well.

Melanie Avalon:
I also like just to throw it out there. I like your ambiguity asset test. So basically, because people might make their rules a little bit too vague and then, you know, what does that really mean? And so what is your test?

Melanie Avalon:
If how many people followed you around?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You want your rules to be operationally defined so that 10 people following you around for a month would know whether you followed it or not. So you can't say, I'm going to avoid chocolate 90% of the time because probably by the end of the month people would be arguing about whether you did or you didn't.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Right? Or you especially you can't say I'm just going to avoid chocolate or I'll try not to eat chocolate. But you could say I'm only ever going to have chocolate on the last three days of the calendar month.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And that would accomplish the same thing. But it's very, very specific so that there's no ambiguity for the pig to barrel through.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. Clear and specific.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
because you want it to function as a trip wire so you know the moment the pyrrhoxylmbran is awake.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny because one of my good friends who is a major fan of your work, she would experience something that you would talk about in your book that I never personally experienced, but she would talk about like getting into overeating and not even realizing what led to it.

Melanie Avalon:
Like for me, whenever I would have issues with overeating, I was very much aware going in like from the first bite, I was like, Oh no. But for her, she would say that she would just realize that she was, she would just like find herself overeating.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, a lot of people say that it's just so interesting to see how, you know, how different things manifest in different people's minds. And you address all of it with your books and with your clients.

Melanie Avalon:
So yes, free cravings book .com. I cannot recommend it enough. And friends, Glenn not only is he making this incredible work accessible to so many people and changing thousands of lives, but he's also one of my dearest friends.

Melanie Avalon:
And I genuinely mean this. Like, Glenn, you're just such a treasure and one of the most kind, empathetic, savvy, knowledgeable, funny, awesome, incredible human beings that I know. And I'm so grateful that we're friends and thank you for what you're doing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Could you tell my dad that please? Sure. Thank you, Melanie. That's really sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I have enjoyed this so, so much. We'll have to have you back on the show. Maybe we can have you on the show in the future for a Q &A if you're open to it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Absolutely, anytime. You tell me when.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I think listeners would love that. So we'll have to do that. Okay, so again, the show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode356. There will be a full transcript there as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
And I will see everybody next week and have a good rest of your day, Glenn. Thank you, dear. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intramission Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 04

Episode 355: Keto Cake, Bingeing, Bioimpedance Analysis, Smart Scales, DEXA Scans, Body Composition, Deuterated Creatine, NMN, NR, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 355 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. *NEW* LMNT Chocolate Medley is available! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: *NEW* LMNT Chocolate Medley is available! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

Luca’s Keto Birthday Cake

Never Binge Again(tm): How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice!

Listener Q&A: Lori - Could you take a deep dive in the data that can be gained by smart scales ?

Episode 352: Special Guest: Dr. Valter Longo, Fasting Mimicking, Nutritional Science, Cellular Rejuvenation, Reproduction & Lifespan, Calorie Restriction, Autophagy And More!

Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition: Observational Study

Listener Q&A: Leslie - Does NMN break your fast?

Ion Layer: Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 355 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 355 of the Intramurton Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi everyone. Vanessa, I have two things I wanna talk to you about. Okay. One is a story about pharmacies and compounding pharmacies and taking agency with your health.

Melanie Avalon:
And the other one is about birthdays. Which one should we do?

Vanessa Spina:
birthdays.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, because my birthday is approaching. By the time this comes out, it will be way in the past. But I'm super curious when you have like your birthday or you're celebrating anything in general. And we might have talked about this on the show before.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't think we have. Do you eat something celebratory that you wouldn't normally eat? Cause food is like such a big part of this show.

Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely do, but these days I don't go that crazy for me. Like if I have it all my way, Pete and I will go to one of our favorite restaurants that's like, you know, elevated dining and I'll have an amazing steak.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's like what I want usually. So there's a couple places that in the city that we really love and that's usually what we do for my birthday. And one is like a French bistro and they have this incredible aged steaks that are absolutely amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
There's another one that's like right on the river and it's like super romantic and beautiful. And it's yeah, like we will splurge a little bit on those nights. But the food that I want is usually like an amazing steak.

Vanessa Spina:
Even though we have amazing steak at home too, it's just, you know, restaurants will have like amazing sauces with it and stuff like that. But I don't really do anything like sweet. Like I don't really get excited about anything like that.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh my goodness. I have so much.

Melanie Avalon:
many thoughts. Okay, one, elevated dining. That is such an interesting phrase. I've never heard it called that before.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know where that came from. Oh, you just made that up. Yeah, I was just like, it's an elevated dining store. I was like, what is it? White tablecloth. Like fine dining? Yeah, but like we'll go to a place that has like, yeah, fine dining and, you know, they'll have like an amazing tenderline with like a hollandaise sauce or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's my treat. And similar with like the other place that we like to go. Or they'll have like an amazing truffle sauce or something like that. That's like really like a big indulgence, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is a complete tangent. I was just thinking, I'm so sorry. I was just thinking about you and Prague and these restaurants and how I want to go with you. Is Taylor Swift going on the Ares tour to Prague?

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know, but that would be amazing. Okay, because listen, if I go to Austin to record with Dave and then London for Thanksgiving and I get these travel skills, and if I maintain these travel skills, maybe I'll come to Prague.

Melanie Avalon:
If Taylor is going to Prague,

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that would be incredible. So is she doing an international tour now? Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. I was actually just talking last night with Rebecca Rudish, who I've had on the show, the founder of Yummers, who side note plug. I adore Yummers. If listeners want delicious pet food toppers for their dogs and cats, cannot recommend it enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Listeners can get 20% off, which is awesome at yummerspets.com/IFpodcast with the coupon code IFPodcast. I don't know if this will still be running, but they did have a special as well to get free dog food.

Melanie Avalon:
Side note, she's a dear friend of mine. My birthday is approaching. I just said that, which is why I'm talking about the birthdays, but we were talking about stuff to do and she was like, we should go see Taylor somewhere internationally.

Melanie Avalon:
So maybe I'll just like blend this all together into some magical adventure. Okay. And we're back. So Prague stakes.

Vanessa Spina:
What's your indulgence? Birthday.

Melanie Avalon:
I just love the food that I normally eat, but I love going, like you said, I love going to a really nice restaurant. I'm such a, I love like fine dining restaurant experiences or like thematic restaurants.

Melanie Avalon:
I just, I'm all about it. I love it. So kind of similar to you. I love going and I love getting like a multi course entree with multiple meat manifestations, meat and fish.

Vanessa Spina:
That's the most exciting part. I'm like, I don't really care about the dessert, to be honest. Like, I just want.

Melanie Avalon:
all the meats, bonus points, if you can get a different type of meat in multiple courses, like major bonus points. So if I can get like a shrimp cocktail, carpaccio, sashimi, a steak, and then maybe get one of the appetizers that I didn't have for dessert.

Melanie Avalon:
And I talk about this all the time, but I literally have gotten entrees as my dessert, which side note, Barry Conrad, who I've also, who we've also had on this show, who lives in Australia, we were talking, did you know that?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wait, actually, maybe in Prague, what is an entre? Oh, but it's a different link.

Vanessa Spina:
Like there's appetizer and then entree is the main meal. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's the way it is in the US. Apparently in Australia and other places, the entree is the appetizer.

Vanessa Spina:
I know I've heard this before and it's, that's what it means in French. You know, it's like the first dish, but yeah, I find it really confusing. Entree to me is like the main dish. But yeah, I also love like a big treat.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I'm the same if I get like a surf and turf. So like steak with like a side of shrimp or I'll order, you know, a lot of steak houses, they'll have like sides and extras and things. We're definitely on the same page with that.

Vanessa Spina:
It's fun to get dressed up, you know, get a little glam on and, you know, go to your favorite restaurant. That's actually what we did for my most recent birthday. We went to our favorite restaurant on the water and I had like the best ever.

Vanessa Spina:
I had a tartare for api with like a truffle mousse and then a tenderloin with like an amazing hollandaise and, you know, had some, some greens with it or something. And it was, it was incredible. I was just so satisfied.

Vanessa Spina:
Sometimes I'll get like a cheese, like a cheese plate or something like that. If I really want dessert, but most of the time I'm fine. And then if I, we get home and I still like want something, I'll make like some kind of yogurt, something like that.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm just happy with that.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so great. I'm normally torn between fish and steak, so that's why I really like getting two entrees.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and also if like sometimes you can get to and like share it's fun too. But yeah, I'm, I'm all about it. The sake and the seafood too. It's so.

Melanie Avalon:
good. I used to, like, because I do, it just speaks to me like birthday cake. It really does. Like that, it's just something, it's overwhelmingly lights up my dopamine centers. Like the concept of, you know, unless there's no this like fun, fatty cake or birthday cake.

Melanie Avalon:
So I used to get keto versions online and sort of make like these sugar -free versions, which honestly taste amazing to me and taste very similar because I haven't had real sugar in eons. But it's just too much of a slippery slope for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I think some people are moderationists and some people are like extremists and I'm an extremist and I would just rather not have that than have a little bit.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, same. I find it is a little bit different now. So when I make Luca's birthday cake, I make it with all the sugar -free icing and the sugar -free sprinkles and all that. And I'll have a piece. And usually when it's, I know it's like, we still have it.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm aware of it. I'm aware that there's cake in the fridge. Not a feeling I normally have. And then, you know, I'll usually like, just basically, I'll have like a piece maybe the next day and then I'll just like cut it off because I don't want to like keep having it every night.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like it should be that for that special occasion. And it's a same. I noticed like when I, we were in the U .S. when I was pregnant with Luca, I tried out some of those keto ice creams because I'd never tried them.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was like aware that they were in the fridge. Like when I walked by the kitchen, like it was like, they were like, hello, like where are we in there? And I was like, why am I aware of this? Like I don't have that feeling normally.

Vanessa Spina:
And I way prefer to just not like, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to waste mental energy thinking about something or being like, oh, I'm going to have that later. Like I just don't like that feeling.

Vanessa Spina:
I prefer to just not have it at all. And just like enjoy a tea after dinner or something like that that just works for me now. And yeah, I'm an obscener for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
I've read about that. It's a very real psychological thing. So like if your brain, I totally read about it. So if your brain knows the potential of this thing that it wants is there, it doesn't forget.

Melanie Avalon:
It like keeps it very present until it's no longer an option. It talks to you like, hello, I mean, when you're so that's why it can be so important, especially if people are starting like intermittent fasting, for example, and they think they're going to be tempted by certain things to get it out of the house.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it doesn't matter if it's like closed and in the pantry, like it needs to not be accessible because it's not about you and your willpower so much as what I just said that your brain, as long as it's there, your brain's going to be wanting it.

Melanie Avalon:
And then once it's gone, it won't.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, and it's gonna drain your willpower. I remember reading about that too with like, if you work in an office and someone has like a bowl of M &Ms or whatever your favorite, for me it would be like hard candy.

Vanessa Spina:
If someone had like a bowl of hard candy or something at the front, like that you suck on, like do you remember like nerds or rents or things like that? Like I love those like the fruit shaped ones. If someone had a bowl of that or if I had, what was your favorite runt?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love the red ones and the banana. The banana was magical. And nerds, I loved also like, if I had to walk by a bowl of that, like an open accessible bowl of that every day, it would drain so much of my willpower.

Vanessa Spina:
But like I haven't thought about rents in like five years, you know, because like they're just not in my environment. Like, and it's such a good point you bring up, like just having it there, it's draining and it does take up your willpower and it does take up mental energy that you could use for more productive things, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
Laffy taffy. Did you ever have Laffy taffy? I remember it though. So good. They had this version called tanky taffy. And it was like the, it was like a massive version of the Laffy taffy, but they had this watermelon one with like watermelon seeds.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, so good. Comment though about the fasting. So I think a way that fasting is sort of a hack on this. I still think get the stuff out of the house. What's so amazing with willpower and fasting is that when you, you get this window and then you no longer have this debate with yourself about to eat or not to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
Cause like, if you're not doing intermittent fasting and you're dieting, it's like, do I eat this? Do I not eat this? Do I eat some more? Do I not eat some more? Like it's like that constantly, which is exhausting.

Melanie Avalon:
But with fasting, it's like, okay, not my window. So then you don't have to like think about

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, I call it the noise. Like it's just like sort of in the background noise or this like distraction that's there. And when you cut it out, it's like a laser. Like you can just focus so much more on what you want to focus on and just take that out of the equation.

Vanessa Spina:
And I think that's probably the biggest thing for me with intermittent fasting is just having that having that framework that it just like, I don't know. I think maybe some people thrive on it more than others.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, some people, if you're not an obscener, if you're a moderator, then I wonder it would be really interesting to see if obsceners gravitate more to intermittent fasting, I would bet that they do.

Vanessa Spina:
Whereas moderators, you know, don't gravitate as much to this kind of lifestyle. That's so yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I bet. And also a bit of encouragement. I think a lot of people will use the clear out the kitchen thing as like the, oh, this is the last time to like eat all the things. I think it can be a spiral where people think they need to like get rid of all the things and eat all of the things.

Melanie Avalon:
There's like this idea, especially like, and I think we will have recently had Glenn Livingston on the, oh, so next episode, perfect timing. Next episode should be with Glenn Livingston. He wrote the book, Never Binge Again, which it's not just about binging.

Melanie Avalon:
It's really about anybody who's struggling with what he calls like the inner pig, which is like this voice that like wants the things. He's amazing for dealing with the psychology of dealing with your food cravings and choices and such.

Melanie Avalon:
But one of the things he does talk about is like all the excuses that this, this pig voice in your head will make about eating and like how one of them is like, oh, this is like the last time, you know, like I'll just eat all these and this will be like the last time when really it's, it's not, that's just like a lie.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it just like, it just lies to you, this voice. So don't listen to it. His solution is basically don't argue. So like when you have this voice in your head that's like, you know, wanting you to, to break your diet rules that you came up with.

Melanie Avalon:
And I don't want to make this sound like overly restrictive or, or disordered or anything like that. But, but basically you have a healthy plan that you've set out to do a diet, fasting, whatever it may be.

Melanie Avalon:
And if you're struggling with this voice in your head that is trying to get you to not engage in that pattern that you believe will be healthy for you and that you would like to do, his solution is you don't argue with it.

Melanie Avalon:
You don't debate with it. You just like don't listen to it. It sounds really simple, but it can be life changing. Basically like you, you isolate it as like the pig voice and you just don't listen to it.

Melanie Avalon:
So check out next week's episode. I think it'd be very helpful for people. Okay. Yes. Next time we talk, I will tell you my crazy story about the compounding pharmacy. Okay. Sounds good. It's crazy. People have you just as a teaser, how do I say this?

Melanie Avalon:
Like, how do I say this? Have you ever had an experience where you are smart and intelligent and have information and know what you're doing and you're just being completely talked down to by somebody who believes they're in a power of position?

Melanie Avalon:
This happened to me with a compounding pharmacy and it's a crazy story. So teaser. Okay. Anything from you before we jump in the questions?

Vanessa Spina:
Can I share something I'm really excited about? Oh yes, please do. It has to do with red light therapy and something new that I'm launching, but I just, I'm so, I'm just buzzing about it because I've been working on it all week.

Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, I use the red light therapy panels. I'm starting to embrace the cold more because it helps activate more brown fat, generate more brown fat. And I also, I'm using my red light therapy panels more these days because it's getting colder outside and I'm not outside all day.

Vanessa Spina:
Before I was getting red light at sunrise and all throughout the day and then in the evening, I'm not anymore because the seasons are changing. So, I brought out all my red light therapy panels. They're all in the bathroom and around the house because my husband and I both use them.

Vanessa Spina:
But one thing that I was noticing is I wasn't doing my face protocol or my face treatment as much and it's because I'm usually with Luca and that's my two year old toddler. And he, you know, he doesn't want me to be like holding this red light therapy panel in front of my face.

Vanessa Spina:
He wants me to play with him and play with his choo choo train or make, you know, Play -Doh butterflies or whatever we're doing. So, I realized that I should use the red light therapy masks because I, a year ago, I customized a couple of them because I was gonna launch them as a product.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I just been so busy with other stuff that I kind of like left them on the shelf. So, I started, you know, I pulled them out, I started wearing them like, this is amazing. I can get a full red light therapy session on my face while I'm still playing with Luca.

Vanessa Spina:
Like he doesn't care that I have a mask on and he actually likes it. He likes like playing with the remote and changing the colors on me. But I can get a full session in and I have my hands free. And, you know what?

Vanessa Spina:
When usually you're doing a face treatment, your eyes are closed because you're not gonna like stare into these powerful lights unless you're specifically doing that for like an eye treatment. Usually your eyes are closed and you can't really do much, right?

Vanessa Spina:
But with the mask, like you've got your hands free, you can see things, you can like watch things, you can read things, you can just interact normally. So, it's like the ultimate multitasking. So, then I posted about it as a kind of a joke for Halloween and I was like, this is my Halloween mask.

Vanessa Spina:
And so many people in my community and like listeners of the podcast were like, this is amazing, I want one, like can I order one? Just like, okay, let's do this. So, I've been having so much fun creating the new mask.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I've created the new Tonelux Crystal red light therapy mask and it is amazing and it's so easy to use. You just like put it on, strap it on your face and then you can set the program on the remote to, there's all kinds of different programs, but set it on and just relax.

Vanessa Spina:
Like you can, if you don't have a toddler that you're playing with, you can lay in bed and relax. You can read a book, you know, you can watch a show, you can listen to podcasts and, you know, it's just the ultimate multitasking.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I'm super excited about it and it's an amazing product and I've just been having so much fun doing like the box design, working on the box design, the manual and customizing like the bag, there's like a travel bag with it that goes with it and all the stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I just been buzzing because as we've talked about so many times before, like this is the most fun part of like creating products is like actually creating the designs and the customization and also just because so many people are excited about the masks, I think they'll be a really fun like Christmas gift and just something awesome that people can use and there's just so much interest in the masks, it's really, really exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
So, that's my latest update.

Melanie Avalon:
A while ago, the closest thing I've been using to this was Saluma. Do you know that brand? I don't know. They make a, it's basically like a dome and when you're laying down, you set it over your head so you can't be moving around with it like this.

Melanie Avalon:
I would go in the infrared sauna and I would lay down and I would put it over my head and it would do red light and it also had near infrared and blue light as well for acne, which you said, you changed the colors on it.

Melanie Avalon:
So is it red light and other lights as well on yours? Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's got four wavelengths in it, and it has these programs. So you can have it go between the main light. So it's got a 630 nanometer red light. It's got a 590 nanometer. It's actually orange light, but it's in the red light family.

Vanessa Spina:
And then it has two 830 and 850 nanometer for near infrared. And so it has these programs where it'll do like five minutes of each, or you can just create your own program or set it to how you want. Or you could just have it be on red light the whole time or in a combination and you can set the time and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, those are the main wavelengths in it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I've been, like I said, I was using that sluma wine and I've been wanting to get something like that for when I was laying down in the sauna. But the issue with that, what I liked about it was it wasn't actually touching your skin.

Melanie Avalon:
So, does this actually touch your skin or does it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it goes on your face. Like it goes, it's like any other mask, but it's made of silicone, so it's quite comfortable. Oh, cool.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that you can see and you can breathe through it and looking at the pictures and see through it. This is so cool.

Vanessa Spina:
that. I was testing another one, which was like, they call it the Iron Man mask, and it's a full, like it's gold, and it's a full mask. And at first I thought that I was going to like that one more. But when I had it on, I just felt like I couldn't breathe.

Vanessa Spina:
I just didn't feel good. Whereas this one, the silicone one is like so light and easy to wear that, you know, you can put it on and you can still like breathe normally, you can still see normally, you know, and it's got to be comfortable if you're going to, you know, do it.

Vanessa Spina:
And you only have to do it three, four times a week, like 10 minutes, or you can do longer ones if you want like 15 to 25. But I'm just so excited that I can get back on track with my red light therapy sessions, because it's so amazing for boosting collagen and elastin factors and just improving, you know, overall skin health.

Vanessa Spina:
And I just like had kind of stopped because it was too hard, you know, to do it with Luke and then for a while I would like wait until he would go to bed and then I would do it like at night and that's not optimal either.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's, it's just, you know, great to have your hands free and your eyes free and still be able to do other things.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so cool. So how does it attach behind it?

Vanessa Spina:
to you? It's got actually three straps. So each strap is like on each side, and then it attaches in the back. And then there's another one on the top, which goes and attaches to those two. So it's quite secure.

Vanessa Spina:
And yeah, it's just like Velcro straps. And you designed this? Yeah, I mean, the like the, the one that hit the one that is on my Instagram that I think you're looking at is actually not the one that we are doing, but it's a newer model.

Vanessa Spina:
That was like an older model that I had that I was just like testing out. And then I was like, okay, I want to go with this. But it's a newer model that features the infrared as well, which is what I was kind of waiting for.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, really, I'm so excited about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Is it on the website now?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, yeah, if you go to ketogenic girl, I just was setting that up today. Yeah. And we're still working on the design as of today. I might do a fuller like print on the face and everything. This is so.

Melanie Avalon:
Cool. Yeah, this would be an amazing gift for people. People don't talk about the orange light.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's interesting. So my SAFAR panel, which has four wavelengths of light also, one of the wavelengths is also orange, and it has some other benefits, like for the skin. I think it complements the red.

Vanessa Spina:
And some of the masks that they have, they have every wavelength. They've got all the colors, because apparently they do different things. But not all of them are things, I think, that people would be interested in.

Vanessa Spina:
Some of them are skin whitening. I'm like, it's not something that I'm interested in. What light does that? I think it's cyan.

Melanie Avalon:
How interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so all the wavelengths have different properties to them. But red light therapy obviously has all the really well -documented benefits. So I don't think there's as much research behind the other ones.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, there are some masks you can get that have all kinds of different colors in them.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, the one I was using did the red near and front and then the blue for the acne, which I could see that being the blue being really helpful for people if they have acne.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, that's a sign, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, well, super cool. So what's the link for people to get this? Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh yeah, they can check it out at ketogenicirl.com if they just navigate to the website and then look up the Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy. There's basically just two things on the website. That's the, you know, the tone, breath ketone meters and the tone red light therapy.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's right under there if you want to check it out there.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Yeah, that would make a great gift for people. Although by the time this comes out, it will be past the holidays, but always giving gifts to people. So, do you, that's a question. Do you, for like Christmas and things like that, do you get presents throughout the year or do you wait until right before?

Vanessa Spina:
Christmas shopping, I usually do, like I probably should start now, but I usually do it around Christmas time. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm pretty intense. I'm like looking all year. I'm like, gift giving is my love language, so I'm really intense about it. And I got a fact check this. My mom, I think, said this year that we're quote, not doing presents or something.

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, wait, what? I understand not wanting to feel the need to like have to spend a lot of money on people, but I really express love through giving gifts. So even if we're not doing gifts,

Vanessa Spina:
My brother is also gifts, his love language. Ever since we were a kid, he would get so excited about Christmas gifts and he still does. Like giving them? Giving them, receiving them, it's definitely his love language and it's really cute how excited he gets about it.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's like, you know, you have to get Matt something really thoughtful because it's his love language. You really want him to feel loved. So it's like, yeah, it's so cute.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, what's funny is it's my giving, but it's not my receiving. So, words of affirmation. Yeah. Lights me up. How about you? Do you know yours?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, some mine are words of affirmation and affection. Receiving or for both? I think giving is affection and then words of affirmation and receiving. Affection and physical touch, you mean? Yes, and receiving is words of affirmation and then physical touch.

Vanessa Spina:
That when my husband and I were dating, we realized we had really different ones. Oh, what are his? So we both have affection as a main one, but his number one way of showing love is acts of service.

Vanessa Spina:
And for me, it wasn't even on my radar. We had to learn each other's because obviously the first couple of years you're together, you're just on this dopamine high and everything is amazing and you feel loved and you shower each other with so much of everything, affection, words, all that stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
But it took me a long time to realize that he was doing things for me. He would carry my suitcase for me and that was his way of showing me. He's taking care of me, protecting me, loving me. But I didn't feel love through it for a long time and we had to learn each other's.

Vanessa Spina:
So I had to learn how to show him love through acts of service, which was not in my vocabulary. So it's really cool and you understand each other's and you kind of have to learn them. And he's had to learn to be more expressive with words of affirmation because it's not one on his radar.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, I have to kind of learn how you both are wired to make sure the other person feels loved all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's so important. It should be mandatory, because there are so many different quizzes out there and profiles and compatibility reports, but this one is pretty, I don't know, I think it would benefit everybody to know they're giving and receiving and their partner's giving and receiving.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, it's huge. It's really huge. You want to be, obviously it's great if you can be the same. And I'm glad my husband, I have one in common. But if we didn't know that about each other and we didn't learn each other's, then I don't think we would feel loved.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's just, it's critically important. I think a lot of people are aware now about love languages and they're so accurate. It's really amazing. So yours expressing is the gifts.

Melanie Avalon:
gifts, yeah, and then the receiving is words of affirmation.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think also women tend to have words more often and men tend to have acts of service more often. Like it's interesting to see, I see that pattern come up. Like and men are often more like action oriented and women are more words like when it comes to relationships but that's not saying that's everyone but I've just noticed that a lot.

Melanie Avalon:
I've noticed that as well. The other one I guess we're leaving out is time. Quality time. Yeah, so quality time, physical touch, words of affirmation, acts of service.

Vanessa Spina:
quality time I know and

Melanie Avalon:
Oh gifts and gifts. Is that all of them? I think there's five. Yeah. So gifts, time, access service, words of affirmation, and touch. Yeah. Which my like anti one, are any of those anti ones for you?

Melanie Avalon:
Because like I don't like

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not big on gifts. I don't like it. I always tell people, don't buy me anything, just write me something. But, you know, of course, if he gives me a gift, I'm like, okay, that's really nice. But I'm like the person who's like, let's not do gifts this year, guys.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so you're like my mom. And I'm like, wait a minute. When you said that?

Vanessa Spina:
I was laughing like every year. I'm like, I think my mom is actually maybe gifts too. So every year I'm like, can we not do gifts this year? My mom's like, no. And my brother also, right? So yeah, I don't usually win.

Vanessa Spina:
I've never won that we always end up doing gifts. And it's fine. Like once I get into it, I'm like, okay, this is fun. But I have moments where I get, I feel like it's being pushed on us. Like you have to give gifts to your loved ones or you don't love them.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I get this feeling like this commercialization of the holiday that I don't like. You know, I'd rather just give a gift because I saw something spontaneously and it made me think of that person. But you know, once you get into it, you're like, okay, it's fine.

Vanessa Spina:
And it definitely would feel really weird a Christmas morning to like not open anything or do anything. So the last few years I've asked for donations to things cause that like feels like a more, a less commercialized gift.

Melanie Avalon:
my experience of it is it's the way I show, the way I can show love because it's like, I have to really know the person. And then I like take the time to think about like, what would they like, what is like perfect for them?

Melanie Avalon:
So it's like me, it's kind of like, it's not an active service, but it's me like doing this thing to like show how much I like care about you and want to like give you this thing that represents that in a way.

Melanie Avalon:
I totally get it. It totally makes sense. So my mom though gives really good gifts. She goes, yeah, she finds stuff like, like so unique and special. I'm like, where did that come from? So yeah, she's sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, on that note, shall we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. Okay, doke, would you like to read the first question from Lori?

Vanessa Spina:
So, Lori on Facebook asks, could you take a deep dive into the data that can be gained by smart skills? I have a GE fit profile and I really like it. I'm wondering what the healthy target ranges are for visceral fat, bone mass, muscle mass, dot, dot, dot.

Vanessa Spina:
I have found the information fascinating. I am a 54 -year -old perimenopausal woman who practices one to two 36 to 42 hour fasts a week. I have a protein forward diet getting on average 100 grams a day.

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to learn more. I'm interested to see if my muscle mass and my fat -free mass changes much after the fasts and if they go down. Trends over time show things are really about the same and I think I am at a plateau.

Vanessa Spina:
I would like to get rid of some more fat in my thighs but my belly fat is mostly all gone. I fluctuate between mostly a four sometimes a five on visceral fat. My bone mass isn't budging staying at 6 .2 but I never had a DEXA scan.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not sure what the 6 .2 means or if it is low or good. I would love to hear what you can find out.

Melanie Avalon:
All right, Lori, thank you so much for your question. And this made me remember something that we did not discuss the episode before last, where we were talking about Valter Longo, which I will put a link to that episode in the show notes, which was ipodcast.com/episode352.

Melanie Avalon:
I asked him about the fasting mimicking diets effects on muscle loss. And he said in their studies, they found that basically there was a transient muscle loss from the five day fasting mimicking diet, but it all came back within a day, which was interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. It all came back within a day. So basically they were, I have to double check what he said exactly, but basically there wasn't any long term muscle loss from the fasting mimicking diet.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's super low calorie, low protein, five days. That there was transient, but he said it came back after the study. And then after they stopped. And so I asked him, how long did it take to come back?

Melanie Avalon:
And he said it was 24 hours. Do you have thoughts on that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So, yes, actually just released an episode on my podcast yesterday where we were talking about this because Dr. Bill Campbell, who's a physique scientist in Florida, he actually just changed his opinion on rapid fat loss protocols because he just did one in his lab and he found that what was happening is they weren't measuring total body water and that a lot of times these studies were showing that rapid fat loss protocols were actually causing a huge loss in lean body mass, but within two weeks it would come back and it was actually water and because our muscles store the most water in the body and that's one of the ways that you can actually game the system if you're doing like a dexa scan.

Vanessa Spina:
If you chug like a gallon of water before having a body, a dexa scan, it'll look like you added 10 or 20 pounds of muscle mass and it's because the dexa is just measuring the dry mass so water can conflate the lean body mass measurements.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. And I think so. I think that's huge. I'll have to, I want to fact check if he said it was 24 hours that it came back, but it was relatively short. And I would need to check, he made it sound like they were checking the difference between, you know, body composition.

Melanie Avalon:
But I would need to read the actual studies, which speaks into this whole question about the scale and measuring all of these different things because it can get so convoluted, like Vanessa was just saying, especially because of the role of water.

Melanie Avalon:
So the way these smart scales work, they use something called bioelectrical impedance analysis, or it's also called bioimpedance analysis, BIA. And basically what it does is you have your feet on the scale, it puts a current, a not harmful current.

Melanie Avalon:
But if you have a pacemaker, they do recommend that you, you know, speak to a doctor or it could interfere with pacemakers. The current runs up one leg through your torso, and then down the other leg.

Melanie Avalon:
And then because of the way this electrical current travels through water versus fatty tissue versus muscle, it guesstimates, it guesses based on the level of resistance, how much water, fat and muscle you have.

Melanie Avalon:
And there are just so many potential issues here. So basically I did find a study, it was 2021, it was called Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition, an Observational Study. It did not look at the scale that Laurie was using, the GE fit profile, but all these scales are essentially using the same technology.

Melanie Avalon:
And so they looked at three scales, they looked at the body partner by Tefal, the diet pack by Torellion and the body cardio by Nokia withings. They found that all of the scales, oh, and then they compare, basically they did the, they weighed the people and they compared it to Dexa scan, which I have comments on Dexa as well.

Melanie Avalon:
They found that all of them were accurate for weight. So just your basic weight were accurate. However, fat and muscle were not accurate, like at all. So fat mass was off, and this isn't kilograms, but was off by between 2 .2 to 3 .7 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
And the negative, so basically it said that they weighed, they had less fat than they did. So it was underestimated. And then for muscle mass, it was off by 4 .5 pounds. So in the positive, negative 6 .6 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
So negative saying they had less than they did and four pounds. So saying they had more than they did. So all over the place. And their conclusion was that this technology and smart skills is not accurate for determining muscle and fat, but the scales are probably accurate for weight, like just weight.

Melanie Avalon:
And so a lot of factors, and there are a lot of reasons for that. There's a lot of factors that can influence just the system. So your body setup, your feet, where your feet are on the scale, whether you're standing up straight or not, the current isn't even like measuring upper body.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's kind of extrapolating from there. It's just not, and her question says that it's measuring visceral fat. Specifically, I have no idea how it thinks it's figuring that out. Like that's something that I don't think even Dexa shows that.

Melanie Avalon:
You'd have to have an ultrasound. Yeah. So that, no, it's it, no. And then bone mass, again, I don't know how it would be determining that. And something that's interesting. So Dexa scan is what is used for bone mass.

Melanie Avalon:
But I talked with Gabrielle Lyon about using Dexa for muscle. She doesn't even think that it Dexa is super valid for measuring muscle mass. She recommends deuterated creatine.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, which you ingest, I guess, and then measure after.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. She says DEXA, I'm just quoting from the transcript that I had with her. She says, it's not a direct measure of skeletal muscle mass. It's an extrapolation. It's directly measuring body fat and it is looking at bone.

Melanie Avalon:
The rest is extrapolated. So if we're comparing this to the scale, for example, so scale is basically getting your weight and then the smart skills, getting your weight and then using this current to kind of guess at things based on a level of persistence.

Melanie Avalon:
But it's just not accurate, probably compared to DEXA, which is accurate for body fat. So it is actually giving you body fat. It is actually giving you bone. But then the muscle mass, it's extrapolating.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not actually measuring muscle mass. And that goes back to what Vanessa was saying, like the amount of water you have, your hydration levels can all affect that. So she says that the way of the future is deuterated creatine, which is actually tagging skeletal muscle, looking at the creatine, because creatine is found in skeletal muscle, and then that's going to be the way to really get an accurate picture of muscle.

Melanie Avalon:
So all of that to say, Lori, I wouldn't make any recommendations about the scale because you just can't know if it's accurate. I wouldn't look at it. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So my, I love everything that you shared about it. I am not a big fan of these kinds of scales because I just don't think the technology is there yet. I think they can be used for trends. And some people, like I know, physique competitors will use them to assess their body fat at home and they'll look at the trends.

Vanessa Spina:
But I do think, as you said, they could be accurate for weight. In terms of body composition, I'm a big fan of Dexabody scans. They are the gold standard of what we have now. And I know what we were talking about with the D3 creatine.

Vanessa Spina:
It's coming. It's just not there yet. And I would be interested to try it for sure myself and, you know, potentially recommend it. If it's, if it's something that turns out great. I was actually talking to Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Bill Campbell about this yesterday or on the episode that came out yesterday because, you know, I was asking him about these different methodologies. So they have a physique lab and mostly what they study is his fat loss.

Vanessa Spina:
And so they use ultrasound often for that, even, which is like they have one in their lab, which is amazing. He loves Dexa. Like he thinks it's fantastic. And I agree with him. I know it can be manipulated, but for the most part, I do think it gives us the best picture out of the options that we currently have.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm sure better options are coming, but I found it to be very accurate when I myself go for scans, when I recommend scans to other people. And it can even show you, you know, where your fat is, you know, where you carry it, you know, exactly how much you have in different parts of your body.

Vanessa Spina:
You can learn exactly how much pounds of fat, fat mass you have on your body. You can also, you know, learn your resting metabolic rate from it and your bone density. So I have no idea how a smart scale is purporting to be able to analyze bone density or visceral fat.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's just not possible. So I wouldn't put much weight on that at all. I would just use it for trends, possibly with your body fat. You could look at, you know, what the trends are. Does it look like it's going up or going down?

Vanessa Spina:
And I do think the technology is coming. I've seen some different models of this on the at home smart scales where they basically would have these like wands that surround you and scan your body. You know, so that is like more like a dexter, right?

Vanessa Spina:
That that makes sense to me that it could give you accurate information in your home. But in terms of like even bioimpedance, air displacement, the pod pods, I'm not as much a big fan of those. But Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Campbell says, if you're using one method, whatever it is, just make sure you control the conditions and use the same method when you're doing the before and afters. So yeah, I unfortunately, I just don't think that any at home skills right now have the technology that that'll really give you the accuracy.

Melanie Avalon:
And even with the DEXA, I think it can be important to make sure that you go in in the same sort of conditions when you get it, because the water can influence that a little bit as well, like with the muscles specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And a nice thing about DEXA as well is it's pretty low on the EMF, or sorry, on the radiation exposure compared to other potential things. So I think that information gained from it is very valuable.

Melanie Avalon:
That's great. No, yeah. So, I mean, it's not minimal. I mean, it's not, you know, non -existent, but it is relatively low. Shall we answer one more question? Yes, I would love to. All right. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
So we have a question from Leslie, also from Facebook about does NMN break your fast? And I have a lot of thoughts on this, but Vanessa, have you played around with NMN?

Vanessa Spina:
So I have some in my fridge and I haven't actually taken it yet, probably partly because I'm pregnant, but also because it's really hard to know how effective NMN is, you know, because we'll never really have the data in humans, you know, to see whether or not it really does affect our longevity.

Vanessa Spina:
But I do have some, but I do not believe it breaks so fast. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So if it's pure NMN, it shouldn't break the fast. I'll be curious how it goes in the future, because it's in a gray zone right now with the FDA in the US as of this recording. I was actually going to release an NMN and then it became a whole thing, which is, and I think the reasoning behind it is because pharmaceutical companies potentially want to, you know, patent it, which I will not go in that soapbox.

Melanie Avalon:
But in any case, no, it should not break your fast. I do take a pure powder form of it at present. I will say that, so NMN, just briefly, it's a precursor, stands for nicotinamide mononucleotide. It's a precursor to NAD, which is a master coenzyme in our body involved in all of our metabolic processes.

Melanie Avalon:
So important for health and it gets depleted with things like aging and stress and sickness and boosting your NAD levels can be really good for health and longevity. And since NMN is a precursor to NAD, that's why people take it.

Melanie Avalon:
You can also get NAD straight as an IV or an intramuscular injection. I was doing those for a while. There needs to be more research, but theoretically, I'm pretty, I find the studies pretty compelling.

Melanie Avalon:
And I have some good friends in the sphere who believe in it a lot, like James Clement, who I really love. The thing about those is your mileage may vary, but for me, they A, they're very expensive and B, they always make me feel a little bit sick, which is like, it's like a lot of money to spend to not feel very well, but it's temporary.

Melanie Avalon:
It's only like 10 minutes that you don't feel well. But for me, I do not feel well after those injections, even though I know the long -term benefits are probably there. I did get really excited recently because I found a new brand that makes NAD patches and I am obsessed.

Melanie Avalon:
So out of all the options, like the NMN, the NR, which is another precursor to NAD, the IV is the injections. My favorite now is the NAD patches. Friends, this has changed my life because it gives you the access to putting NAD into your bloodstream, but it's transdermal.

Melanie Avalon:
And you have it at home. I made a video recently on Instagram about how to put on the patches, because you have to activate the NAD and you pour it on this patch and there's like saline solution. It's like a whole thing.

Melanie Avalon:
It's easy to do once you learn how to do it. They last for 14 hours, and then you can just have them at home and use them when you need. So I'm basically, because I usually go out once a week, so I'm kind of using them once a week the day after going out to boost my NAD levels after a night out on the town.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love them. They're called Ion Layer. And if you go to Melanieavalon.com/ionlayer and use the code MelanieAvalon, you get $100 off, which is crazy. So that's Melanieavalon.com/ionlayer with the code MelanieAvalon for $100 off.

Melanie Avalon:
But yes, to recap, NMN should not break your fast, NR should not break your fast. I like supporting NAD levels and my favorite now are NAD patches. Okay. Anything from you Vanessa, before we wrap up this episode?

Vanessa Spina:
episode. I had so much fun with you. I love the questions. As always, keep them coming and I can't wait for the next one. Me too. I had a lot of fun.

Melanie Avalon:
But so, so much fun for listeners. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon:
These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about, like those studies, and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode355. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike.

Melanie Avalon:
And you can follow us on Instagram where I have podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I just had so much fun. Yeah, just love getting to talk about all these topics with you. And I can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, I will... talk to you in the future. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Dec 31

Episode 350: NMN, NAD Patches, Finding Your Fasting Pattern, Excess Protein, Overeating, New Years Resolutions, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 350 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon  to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Go to www.melanieavalon.com/ionlayer to get $100 off NAD patches with the code MELANIEAVALON!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #227 - Dan Levitt

Listener Q&A: Jeff - Early is better?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 350 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 350 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, 350. Is that a milestone? Should we have made this some sort of episode? Like a special episode?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever done that for 350. I remember doing it for like 100 and then maybe the hundred, every increment of 100. I just had 500 on mine and I celebrated that.

Melanie Avalon:
500? Whoa.

Vanessa Spina:
But 50 in between? I don't know, like, maybe 400 or 500 would be. We can do something big for them.

Melanie Avalon:
400?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow. 500. Congratulations. That's a long time podcasting.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I didn't even actually do much for it, and then my brother texted me and he was like, oh, my gosh, congrats on 500 episodes. I was like, oh, that's so sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
350 is a nice number, though. It's great.

Melanie Avalon:
What was your first podcast experience, like, episode?

Vanessa Spina:
So I actually did it with my best friend Jess's brother, and we sat down together in Vancouver, and I had all the equipment on the dining table of this airbnb where I was staying, and her Brother Billy came over and we did an episode on hormones and exercise. He's like a personal trainer. It was really fun and it was in person, so we got to sit there and just podcast together. And I was like, oh, that was amazing. And, yeah, it's definitely one of the top downloaded episodes, obviously, because of the first one, but it did really well. That first one did well. And, yeah, I was so excited. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, so your first in person, and I've still never done an in person. Did you continue it in person?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I just did that one because I thought it would be a fun way to break the ice. Her brother Billy and I have a really good relationship and great chat. So I was like, this would be a great person to do the first episode with. Just like, not like an expert guest, but someone who's knowledgeable and someone that I flow really well with. So we did a really fun first episode, and I was like, this is going to be amazing. But I had, over the years before that, been invited on other people's podcasts, and every time I would do one, I was like, this is so fun. I love this. I get in the flow. I get in a flow state. I feel amazing. I could do this for hours. I was like, I need to do this. I need to podcast. So I was pretty excited to make the decision.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. I don't think I'd been actually, I might have been on. Oh, I do remember my first podcast, and I was so nervous. And it wasn't even. Not to say anything bad about podcasts, but it was not like a big deal podcast. But I was like, oh, I was so scared. And, wow, that puts things in perspective. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to record in person. How do you feel about, this is so random. When you're trying to find something that you need, how do you feel about the research? A lot. Be really specific. Try to find the perfect thing approach versus the throw it at the wall. Just like reach out to a million different options and kind of just see what manifests approach.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends on the thing, but I usually like to do both. I like to research, especially if it's something I'm not super knowledgeable on, so that I have lots of information. But I'm also a big fan of experimentation, so I think that's the best way to figure out the optimal way of doing something, trying different approaches. I'm such a big fan of experimentation when it comes to lifestyle, diet, nutrition, everything. So I like combining both.

Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Okay. Yeah. I thought about it for two reasons. One, I recently aired an episode. I think I mentioned it. Did I mention this last time? Dr. Jennifer Gutman and her beyond Happiness book and how she talks about how all decisions are guesses?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, you mentioned it because we had a question related to that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. That's right. I feel like I did this two nights ago because I'm still trying to find somebody in Austin when I go record with Dave Asprey in person to do the tech aspect because I was like, I need to research and find the person and make this a thing. And then I was like, I just can't do this. So I literally just wrote an email asking for what I wanted. And then I googled Austin podcast studios and then I literally just clicked the first dozen links. These are for in person podcast studios. And I just sent it to them asking if they could come help me remotely, which is like, not a service that any of these people, but. And I was like, whoever answers, I'll.

Vanessa Spina:
Just be like, yes, that's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon:
And then we'll be done. I'm not even going to think about it. Just like the first person that says I can do it, I'll be like, okay, come with me. This could go really bad, but that's fine. Point being of that is I think I used to be neurotic about all decisions and over researching and finding the perfect thing, and now I'm just to the point sometimes where it's like, you know what? Whatever works. Whatever works. We're just going to go with it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, well, you've been doing this for so long and we talked about before you doing like a dress rehearsal with your sister.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
It really works. See that?

Melanie Avalon:
But that would be putting in all the, all the energy where I'm kind of like, it would. I think I'm just going to not just show up because there's a lot of orchestration, but there's just like so much in life. Wow, this was a tangent. I did not mean to go down. I did want to share a resource really quick with listeners. So I've talked a lot about both NAD and NMN. So, long story short, NAD is basically a master metabolic coenzyme in the body. It's involved in all of your living cells, all energy production, everything that you do. It's more complicated than that. It's actually like a NAD NADH ratio. But regardless, declines in NAD are associated with aging and disease, and a lot of people focus on boosting their NAD levels. And so I've talked about this a lot. I take an NMN supplement nightly, even though it's confusing right now because the FDA is being weird about it. So it can be a little bit hard to get. I've also been doing NAD infusions. I did those for about, I don't know, maybe six to eight months. I was doing them every week. Have you done those, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So I like them. They're just very expensive. Very expensive, and they do not make me feel good in the moment. Like, they make me feel bad. So I'm like, this is a lot of money to pay to feel pretty bad for, like, a little bit. So those are the injections. There's also ivs, which are even more expensive, and I have not done one of those because I was like, there's no way I'm going to pay that much to feel this bad for a few hours compared to the injection, which. So it's an intramuscular injection. It lasts for, like, ten minutes, so I don't feel that well. In any case, a brand reached out to me called Ion layer, and they make NAD patches, and I am so excited because they're way more affordable than the injections and the IVs, and they have data showing that they do clinically boost NAD levels. And it's just so easy to do. Like, they send you the patches and then the Ned and some saline and some water, and it's like a whole process, but it's easy once you learn how to do it. And you basically activate the NAD and then you wear the patch. And it's kind of like for listeners who wear continuous glucose monitors, it doesn't stick anything into your skin, but it sticks on your skin, and then you put a cover over it that's kind of like those CGM covers. I'm obsessed. I have replaced doing the injections with these patches, so I'm doing these patches once a week, and I'm doing them because I tend to go out on Friday or Saturday, so I wear them after the next day after going out to boost my NAD from my activities. So I actually have an incredible code for listeners. Like, incredible. So you can actually get $100 off your first kit, which is crazy. So $100 off with the code, MELANIEAVALON. So for that, I'll make a link. So if you go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, that will take you there, and you can use that code, Melanie Avalon, for $100 off. So again, I highly recommend it. I'm going to implement this into my life and use it every week. They last for 14 hours. Okay, that's my update. Anything from you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I just finished having the latest protein shake with the latest version of tone protein, and it tasted great. It's really interesting. It's been taking a little bit longer than we anticipated to get the flavor right. And it turns out, because tone protein has added leucine in it. Leucine is a super bitter amino acid, so we've been trying different formulations. I think I also shared on the podcast how the tone protein samples that I had were making the tone device go crazy. And it was because there was actually alcohol in the vanilla, so we had to get rid of that, get another natural vanilla.

Melanie Avalon:
That still blows my mind. That really blows my mind that it lasted that long.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you sure? Yeah. I know you're sure.

Vanessa Spina:
I know. And the funny thing is, I was thinking, too, because I have tamari a lot with different meals I make, because I make a lot of low carb, like, asian food. And I was like, I use tamari, and there's a tiny bit of alcohol in there, but it doesn't seem to affect the tone device. But if I have cabbage, then the tone will blow, like, as much as if I had a glass of wine because of this raphano sugar in there. So there's certain things that it really does affect. But with that sample, as soon as I figured it out, it made so much sense, and it was very clear that that was the only thing. There was three days that week that it happened, and the only thing I changed was having that sample of tone protein. But then when I was talking to Scott a little bit more, he said that the vanilla also had some quote unquote natural sugars in it. And I was like, squeeze me. What? I was like, what do you mean, natural sugars? So apparently there were these natural sugars in, and I was like, this is like a non negotiable for me, like, no sugars. I don't want any alcohol in it. And as you like, Scott understands that particularness, know, festival or whatever you want to call it when it comes to supplements. So he was like, totally get it. Totally get you. Let's fix it. So I just got the new samples, like, 3 hours ago, and I just made my regular shake with almond milk and ice and tone protein. And so this version has something called a bitter blocker added into it, and I'm trying to keep it with as minimal ingredients as possible, but leucine is that bitter. That the bitter blocker actually made a huge difference. So I just was, like, having the last bites of it as we started chatting tonight, and it was great. So I think we have our winner. There's three other versions that he sent me as well, and some of them have some gums, like organic gums, like xanthum gum. Scott says there's all these health benefits. I was like, can we do it without the gums? He's like, there's really a lot of health benefits to them. Then finally, I said, can we do one without the gums? But instead, he decided to put collagen in. So I think that is going to help with the overall flavor profile and the bitter blocker. So nothing wrong with having some collagen in there. And, yeah, I'm excited because I think we finally have our winner. But it's crazy how long it takes with flavors, because when you have a supplement that's encapsulated, you don't have to worry about the way it tastes. Right? But when it's a supplement that's also a food, like protein powder, it's also got to taste great and not have weird aftertaste or not have alcohol in it. That's going to mess with my tone device and all my community members that love to use the tone, I don't want them to be having weird results. So, yeah, I'm excited because it tasted really good. So I think we're going to be able to launch really soon.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that is very exciting. I know what you mean about the flavor taste stuff, because right now, working on the spirit, Lena, that's something where you taste it and it's like a whole nother ballpark of the sensory experience to address. Congratulations. It's exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
I just have to swallow the spirulina. Like the spirulina and the chlorella. I just have to swallow it because I don't like the taste of any of those kind of green things.

Melanie Avalon:
I can't wait for your final manifestation.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, it's just so funny that I just happened to be eating it, like, right as we started and we were chatting.

Melanie Avalon:
People are going to be so excited to finally get it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, me too. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, by the time this comes out, this comes out January 1. Vanessa, we forgot.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year. That's what we should be celebrating.

Melanie Avalon:
We forgot to start looking at the date. Okay. Mental note. Melanie, look at the date. Okay. And now it's, like, too late. We're like, I have an idea. Let's talk about intermittent fasting and the new year.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, let's take a.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the. Like, we're on a train, and we're going to go down a different track. Or Disney. Wait, before that. How can people get all over the place? How can people get on the email list or get your tone protein and. Or find out information about it?

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
If you would like to be updated when it's going to be out. That's at Toneprotein.com. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll be added to the list. And it's the exclusive launch discount list, so it'll be the biggest discount we ever offer on tone protein. So that's at toneprotein.com. And thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. I'm so excited for you. I know it's been a long journey with you getting this formulation, so it's really exciting for the final version to come. And I know it's going to be the very best of the best.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
January 1. This is a question that must be asked of you, because I don't think we've had this conversation. Do you make New Year's resolutions?

Vanessa Spina:
I knew that was coming. I feel like it's always a blank slate. It's always an opportunity to set goals. But I'm not a big resolution person. I like to just be sort of setting goals all throughout the year and always trying to make sure that I always have something that I'm moving towards, something that I'm excited about, something that I'm just a goal oriented person. So resolutions are not really like, it feels more forced. I don't know. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm the exact same way. My life is driven by goals. It's exhausting in a good way. So I don't ever really have the need for a date with a specific goal because I would just have done that anyways. There's not any goal. If there was a goal I wanted, I would have already made it. It would be hard for me to think of something to do because I'm probably already actively pursuing it. How do you feel about. We have talked about this in past shows on New Year's, the pretty shocking statistics about how long diet resolutions last. How do you feel about New Year's goals? And is it a good time to try a new fasting window or a diet goal or something like that?

Vanessa Spina:
I do like it. I do think it's a good time to reset. A lot of people also like September for that. But it's really interesting because this is so pervasive. And if you work in health and wellness and fitness, then you know how seasonal it is. And there is this trend. Like, you can look it up even if you just look on Google trends, like see what people are searching. But if you work in health and fitness, if you work, especially helping people to improve their body composition, lose fat and build muscle, it's crazy what a high there is in January for wellness. People are super interested in wellness. And I like that. I like that people have that feeling of like, it's a new year, it's a blank slate. I'm going to be at my most fit ever, or I'm going to try this or try that. That they get this renewed sense of energy and desire and focus. I really like that. It's like, take that ride, that wave, use it to your advantage. The same way that women every month who are cycling have that first ten days of. Whenever you start a new cycle, you get this superwoman energy. Like, you have this estrogen rising. It's a great time to start a new lifestyle, nutrition plan, new fasting window, whether it's circadian fasting or Omad or whatever it is that you're interested in trying, take advantage. I think of those energetic highs and, yeah, it kicks off in January, really peaks, like January, February, March, April, May, then starts to slow down a little bit. There's a little bit of a summer slowdown, then it picks back up again towards September, and then it goes to the annual low between basically Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's events and everything that people have. No one's really thinking anymore about getting fit during that time, unless you're weird like us. But yeah, it's interesting. And I think it's great that people have that reset feeling.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. I love that so much. It's made me realize something about my life in that I feel like when I was younger, I used to always be sad about January coming because I didn't want the holidays to end. Like, I just loved Christmas so much. And it was like once January came, it's like, well, the sparkle is gone, but now life is just so exciting that I don't feel that way ever. I'm like, bring it on. I'm so excited about everything new. I do remember a statistic about the holiday weight gain that has stuck with me for a long time. And it was basically that people don't gain as much as we think. I'd have to find the study, and it was a while ago that I read it, but it wasn't a ton. Like, it was like a couple of pounds, but they don't tend to lose that. So it's like, people tend to maintain adding that pound or two extra each year. It doesn't go away. So, like, each year, their base point or their baseline is rising, which is concerning. I'm also really fascinated by the idea or the concept. I think about this a lot with cycles, how it feels like it's. I don't know if I can articulate this. It feels like we've been there before, and it feels like we're going in circles, but really, it's all new. That haunts me. I don't know how to articulate this. Like, weeks, like, we think it's Monday again, like, we've been here. We think it's Tuesday again, but really, it's all a new day, every single day. That really stresses me out if I think about it too much.

Vanessa Spina:
Which part stresses you out?

Melanie Avalon:
That we feel like we've been here before, but we haven't. It's literally, like, moving forward on the timeline.

Vanessa Spina:
What weirds me out is when I think about how we have these frameworks, about time and calendars.

Melanie Avalon:
They're not real.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're not real.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, good. You understood what I was saying. Okay. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Because I'm like, okay. I think of each week as seven days, and I know that it helps me mentally to know that I have five work days and two weekend days with holidays or long weekends or whatever, and that seven days. There's something about it that feels comforting that you have your calendar and you know each week and what your Monday is and everything, but I often think about the fact that it's totally made up and that there is no real thing. But as humans and the way our minds are, we thrive with that framework and having that consistency of the weeks and the calendar. And, I mean, some of it is real, right? Because we do have light cycles of day and night. We do have monthly cycles with the moon, and there's, like, the gregorian calendar and all this stuff. But I feel like this is something you need to get into on your rabbit hole podcast with Scott.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's such a good. So I'm just so happy you knew what I was saying. You articulated it. So we. We come up with this time structure, but it's not like we're like, oh, this is a Monday. This is another Monday. But, no, this is actually a new not. You have not been here before. It's very stressful to make it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's like one of those middle of the night thoughts, like, you wake up and you can't get back to sleep, and you're just like, the calendar isn't real. You're just staring at the ceiling with wide eyes going like, but it's Thursday. But it's not actually. It's just like, yeah, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
We'Ve had this moment? Oh, my goodness. No. I had a moment, actually, when I was reading, I mentioned interviewing Dan Levitt for his book what's gotten into you? About the history of atoms from the big bang until us. And he had, like, one sentence there that was so casual and such a throwaway, and I fixated on it. He mentioned how planets. Certain planets, rotate on their side or something. And I was like, how do we know what their side is that's not real? Who said where up is or down?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, gravity, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
But with planets rotating, they're just in. Like.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like, in relation to what I know. And those moments, I think, are important to know. When we were in Greece, we were walking and we all just looked up at the sky and we're telling, like, we live on a planet, and those are the stars, and the planet is going around the. And every time I think about that, I'm just like, what am I even like? We live on a planet that's just. None of it makes sense. But, yeah, it's all just, like, pretty wild.

Melanie Avalon:
Reminds me of probably one of my favorite lines in a Disney movie. Do you know what it is? Based on our conversation, can you guess?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think that I'll have enough time to guess.

Melanie Avalon:
It's in Lion King, when they're looking at the stars.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, what do they.

Melanie Avalon:
It's. What is it? It's Timon and Pumbaa discussing the stars. Oh, and Simba, he's present. And they're talking about. What are the stars? Simba is talking about how he was told that his dad told him the stars are like the kings of the past. And then Timon kind of talks down to him, and he's like, no, they're fireflies. Like, the stars are fireflies. And then Pumbaa's like. Because when you're little, this just goes over your head. But Pumbaa's like. I always thought they were, know, big balls of gas burning thousands of miles away.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember Pumbaa saying that.

Melanie Avalon:
And when you're a kid, you're like, oh, Pumbaa, you're so silly. But really, it's completely accurate. Yeah, because that's when Timon's like, no, they're fireflies stuck in that big, black sticky. It's so good. So good.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to show Luca lion king.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Yes. All the Disney stuff. He can wear his. Oh, I wanted you to say it because you texted it to me. So, what does he call the fireman outfit?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, Finerman. He's like, luca. We put him in the fireman suit, and I was like, I think he's going to like this. No, he loves it. And he wouldn't take it off. And he just kept looking at himself in the mirror. He's like, luca Feynman. Luca Feynman. We were like, yeah, Luca, you're a Feynman. And then he wanted to sleep in it, and he didn't want to take it off. He's got a little fire extinguisher and a little helmet, and he's got a little megaphone or whatever, and it's so cute. He's going to be so excited to wear it for Halloween. And I know it's the new year now. This is going to sound a little dated, but, yeah, Luca got to be a fineman.

Melanie Avalon:
The picture you sent me was, like, the cutest thing ever. I was smiling, so. Oh, treasures. Treasure yet? And maybe when this comes out, you'll have another treasure.

Vanessa Spina:
Hopefully, I definitely will. By that time. By the time this is out. Yeah, I'll be in the baby bubble. The love bubble.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Very exciting. Okay, well, happy New Year's to everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Happy new year.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Use this time energetically, this made up time, this fake construction, to fuel your life accordingly. I'm excited. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay, so to start things off, this is actually an update question. We got to an email. I'll reread the email that we already answered on the show. And then I thought I would just share the listener's update, because I thought it was. I'll just read it. So, Jeff and I don't know when we answered this originally, but he had written in saying that he listens to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. Oh, that reminds. I'm glad, glad I'm reading this. His team reached out to me about coming on my show. Do you know Dr. Greger?

Vanessa Spina:
That's crazy. He reached out to you.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. What's crazy, too, is, like, he's been on my list of people to reach out to to try to get on the show. The Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, not the intermittent fasting podcast. So I just need to make a note, because I don't think I heard back from them. Okay. So he says, I listen to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythms. And all of that because of our circadian rhythms, our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight. So I try and my window is eleven to seven. So 11:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m.. I snack from 11:00 a.m. Kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time. I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Gregor's advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners? So we answered that in an earlier episode and then what I thought was super cool was Jeff wrote in an update because in his original email he was contemplating eating earlier based on this information about circadian rhythm and how we metabolize it better during the day. And then his update he said, melanie, I do agree with your opinion of Dr. Gregor. Now I'm really curious what I said. I did submit that question a few weeks ago and my journey had really only just begun at that point. I've since shifted to a 24 during the week, consuming what is essentially one meal a day. When I get home from work, I snack while preparing supper and I might have an after supper beverage, but that's it. Hunger is not really an issue on weekends. Breakfast is such a ritual that I can't really avoid it. I've been able to delay it a bit and have an eight hour window from ten to six or eleven to seven depending on when I prepare brunch for my kiddos. All that said, eight hour worked short term, but excessive snacking through the day had me shorten it. Big benefit is that I eat no food while out and about during the day. I have way more control waiting until I get home. Ps there is some good analysis of the early versus late debate on the lean gain site. All right, Jeff, so thank you for the update. And what I really, really liked about reading this update is I think it's really telling to show how we can when finding the intermittent fasting pattern that best works for know. On the one hand, we can look at the theories and what people say is best and you should do this or you should do that based on this or know. In this case, with Dr. Gregor talking about eating earlier, and for Jeff, that just doesn't work for like it makes him more hungry. He does more snacking and so he finds for him that a shorter one meal, a daytime window where he's not having that snacking issue and then having the longer window on the weekends when he's having family related things, that that's what works for him and I think a really important takeaway here, and this actually applies to sleep as well, is consistency can really do wonders compared to trying something that you think might be, quote, more perfect and not doing that consistently. So kind of like with sleep, they'll say that there's like an ideal window when you should be getting up, going to bed at this time and getting up at this time. It's been shown pretty evidently that even if you have a non conventional sleep pattern, like maybe you're going to bed later than most people and getting up later, it's more important that you do that and keep it consistent rather than try to force yourself into a different pattern and be inconsistent with it. And so with Jeff, I really love that he found that regardless of what is said about the early eating or not, that this later window works for him. And I think the same could go for any manifestation of intermittent fasting. So I just want to really encourage people when they are trying to find the intermittent fasting pattern that works for them. You have to find what works for you and the thing that helps you with your hunger and if you have inclinations to snack and also the social aspect. So I thought that was a pretty nice update. Do you have thoughts on it? Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with your point on finding what works for you. I think that's a recurring theme that we have on the podcast. Know, there's a lot of studies out there that show different things, but at the end of the day, you have to experiment and figure out what works for you, even if the studies are there to help point us in the right direction or maybe give us ideas on what to test or what might be beneficial for us or understanding the mechanisms and pathways. But yeah, you really have to tinker and figure out what works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you find, I know we've talked about this before, but if you eat earlier, do you find that it makes you want to snack more, or are you pretty good with closing the window and being done?

Vanessa Spina:
It's the opposite for me, and I've been doing this recently. I'm eating more because I'm in the third trimester of my pregnancy and I'm trying to split up my protein meals. And I don't love it. I feel really full. I don't really want to have dinner. I make myself have dinner anyway, and it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas normally I kind of go through the day more so just feeling really energetic and not feeling the sort of slowdown that you get from all that digestion, and then when I have my main meal, especially dinner, I really enjoy it. Now I'm just like, it's not what I want to be doing, but because of what I know about muscle and protein and what the fact that my body's building another body right now, I have to really stay on top of the protein and eat more meals and eat smaller meals. But I find that the nutrient density, if you eat really nutrient dense, like say a first meal earlier in the day, especially if it's mostly centered around protein, that you will not have blood sugar spikes. And it's when people have blood sugar spikes and then the blood sugar then falls below where it was before. That's when people experience a hunger and fixation on food, which was my experience. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but when I eat, prioritize protein and healthy fats, which I usually always do for my first meal, I usually only have carbs later in the day. Then I am full for hours. I just don't really think about food, and it usually makes me want to eat less.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. For me, once I start eating, I can just keep eating. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And I know that a lot of people have that experience. Like Dr. Sean Baker said that, and a lot of people have said how omed is really beneficial for just. Especially if you prefer that not thinking about food. But for me, I think because I do more protein and fat, it's just so nutrient dense that I get so full and I just don't think about food at all. It's more like, I don't want it. It's more an aversion at that point. Like, no, I don't want any more protein. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I wonder if there are different types of people when it comes to your. I'm guessing there are. Especially reading books surrounding addiction and food addiction, like brightline eating or Glenn Livingston's books. I think some people, food, whatever it is, just lights them. Like, that's the way I am. I was always the type that going to buffets and stuff, growing. Like, I would literally eat until I felt like, nauseous. And even then probably want to keep eating. Whereas some people, I think, just don't. I find it so interesting how the brain, how certain things light up people's brains and not other people's brains. I'm just so fascinated by that. So like what you were just saying about eating the protein and fat and being full, literally, I don't have a memory. I think I can confidently say I do not have a memory of eating a meal and feeling full. I have a memory of that, but of feeling full and being like, okay, I don't want any more food. Like, I always want more food. And this is the way I've been my entire life. And that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Because what my body needs is I need to have my one meal a day, and then I need time. Like, I need to go to bed because I need to get in, like, hours for my body to switch over to the fasted state, and then I'm good. But as long as I'm in that, quote, fed state, I want to just keep eating. And like I said, that's the way I've been my entire life. That's why a one meal day in the evening works so well for me.

Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever say, okay, say I put a plate of six chicken breasts in front of you. Do you feel like you would get through, like, maybe two or three, and then be like, I don't want any more of this?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no way.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, you just have six, and then you'd still want to have, like, seven. 8910 and six chicken breasts doesn't even sound like that much to me. That makes my stomach hurt to think.

Melanie Avalon:
Say, 20 chicken breasts. That's a better. So, like, 20 chicken breasts. Yeah, no, I would want to keep eating.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you could physically eat 20 chicken breasts.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you'd be surprised.

Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, though, because one of the questions that we have actually is about sleep and protein. And I was just thinking today, as I was on my way back home to meet up with you for this, how we are so different when it comes to that, because one of us likes to go to bed with not a super full stomach, but you actually love to go to bed with this full stomach. So, yeah, it's funny how I think there are definitely different types. I don't know what you'd classify them as, but most people, I got to say, maybe you're a bit of a unicorn. Most people can eat 20 chicken breasts. And that's why I always say the steakhouses give you the steak for free if you can eat the 20oz or whatever, because they know most people just get to a point where their body's like, I can't store these amino acids, so we have to stop. And that's my favorite thing about protein. But I think it was Amy Berger was telling me once, maybe on a podcast, how she also felt that way about protein, that she didn't find it to be that. I know. I'm sure there's probably listeners out there who feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is so interesting one. I find it interesting. At those restaurants, normally they make you eat it in the context of, well, I feel like oftentimes you have to eat it with like a side or something, or like the burger ones. You have to eat it with the bun and things like that. When I see those now, I'm like, I could do that. If it was just a steak, it would not even be remotely a problem.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I could too, but I think most people don't win the free steak. But any carnivores, carnivores are high protein eaters. We probably could be fine. We'd probably win it.

Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of ironic. I don't think I've ever engaged in one of those, even in my low carb days. It's kind of interesting, though. This speaks to food addiction and palatability. I know Rob Wolf talks about this a lot. Like in those eating contest things. Oftentimes, Rob always talks about this one show or episode where the guy would be trying to eat all the stuff and be literally sick and couldn't keep going. But then he would. And I think he was eating like ice cream. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
If you switch from savory to sweet, you can keep going.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. He added in fries, and once he added in fries, then he could keep eating the ice cream. Which speaks to just the overwhelming problem with the food system today.

Vanessa Spina:
I was just interviewing him on my podcast yesterday, talking about food system.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we need to get him on this show. I was waiting for them to move. So they've moved and everything now. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're like setting up a element compound in Montana there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my going to. I need to email him. I need to email Gregor.

Vanessa Spina:
They can be buddies.

Melanie Avalon:
We can do an episode, have them both did.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we had most of the podcasts. We were like, kind of talking about people who are silly when it comes to nutrition.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? I want to listen to it. When does it come out?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it'll be out in a couple of weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
Two of my favorite people together.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. It was funny because we were kind of talking about. He made this really interesting point. It's the last point I'll make on this episode, but he said how we were talking about the health at every size movement, and then there's these different people who kind of sometimes will attack these different protocols and things that we recommend or follow. And the whole point of paleo or paleolithic protocols or keto or intermittent fasting is to help people feel better, right? But it almost gets sometimes twisted around to the point where it's like, oh, you're making people restrict too much and you're creating stress for people. He really feels that a lot. And he says that he's starting to get back on his more. What's the word for it?

Melanie Avalon:
Pro.

Vanessa Spina:
More like, what is it called when you're a big advocate for someone? Zealot? I think he said, I'm getting back on my zealous high horse, or something like that. Because he's like, no, these things that we do. Paleo helps people who have inflammation and who have digestive issues and who are dealing with chronic pain. He's like, this is a solution to help people who are in pain. Why is it being twisted around into something that's harmfully restrictive or stressful or whatever? And I was like, I never thought about that. But the way he phrased it was so perfect. So we spent a lot of the podcast talking about that and just how these protocols, like intermittent fasting and keto and prioritizing protein, it's really to help people who want help. There's a lot of people who need help, who have chronic pain, who have chronic inflammation, who have. I more so work with people who want to improve their body composition, but there's so few people in our society who are actually metabolically healthy. People need these interventions more than ever. So, yeah, we were kind of talking a lot about that on the episode.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that so much. And I know we're talking about because I know he kind of went through a period, I felt, where he felt like maybe he was more focusing on the issue of people being over restrictive. Like, he was kind of like, in that vibe. I'm guessing that's what he means by now, coming out more on the other side. I mean, I know he's always been pro paleo and pro things, but I feel like he goes through times where he's been not over fasting and not overdoing things.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we talked about that, too.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, nice.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because I know he has a pretty strong opinion on not over fasting. And he said that his last talk that he gave was, like, longevity. Are we trying too hard? But he gets really passionate about the fact that there are these people who are zealously wanting people to not have any restrictions. And restrictions are important, right. If you don't restrict yourself from crossing a busy highway, you're going to die. So why is the term restriction always in this very negative context or negative light. When restrictions can be so helpful, they can literally save our lives.

Melanie Avalon:
Highway lanes are the reason we can drive anywhere. Like, if we didn't have stoplights and if we didn't have lanes like those lines on the road, it would just be. I mean, have you been to Rome? Yeah. I'm sure you. I guess. I guess we would get places. Because my family is forbidden. We cannot go back to Rome. It stressed my mom out so bad.

Vanessa Spina:
The way they drive. Pete loves it. He's like, it's organized chaos.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember one day we just sat at, like, one of those because basically, for listeners who haven't been to Rome, they have basically the equivalent of roundabouts, but there's nothing in the middle. So it's not like a circle. It's just an open circle. And you just drive in and then you just drive out and there's like, no, we literally just sat on the curb and watched the cars. And they're going, like, not slow. I don't know how they do it.

Vanessa Spina:
Your mom would not like Vietnam or Hanoi either.

Melanie Avalon:
They do that there, too.

Vanessa Spina:
There's just a lot of people on, like, mopeds and motorcycles. And it's really hard to cross the street. You have to just wait for a gap, then you cross and you have to run. It's like, frogger.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my gosh. Frogger. Whoa. I forgot about Frogger.

Vanessa Spina:
Pete has this time lapse video of me trying to cross the street, and it looks like. Like it took me like half an hour to get to him on the other side because there was no opening and I thought I was going to.

Melanie Avalon:
Die with the logs.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Don't you jump from log to log. Sorry. I'm, like, stuck on the frogger train now. Yeah. Wait, I want to see this video of you. It's really funny.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm just like. I go forward, Elaine in the back, and then I'm just like, yeah. He was just laughing so hard and it's so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
That's something else that will. Speaking of our discussion about fake time, have you ever, like, especially if you see an aerial shot of a crowd, like a Disney world or something, how people and crowds don't run into each other? That's mind blowing if you think about it.

Vanessa Spina:
It is. Yeah, it really is. I think about that all the time when I'm. Sometimes I'm weaving through a crowd and I'm like, we have these sensors or something around us that give us some kind of indication.

Melanie Avalon:
Think about it. Especially, like, crowds that are really crunched together.

Vanessa Spina:
People rarely collide.

Melanie Avalon:
They don't.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really funny. I think about that all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy. It's mind blowing because think about how and these crowds can be moving fast. Like, you can have tons of people moving really fast in a tight crowd. Nobody runs into each other how and people are like going around each other. I mean, things to think about. Friends in your 2024? Oh, my goodness. Well, okay. I'm actually really excited about next. I'm always excited about next episode, but I'm excited about next episode with the question about protein and sleep because I did a lot of research. So teaser for next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@iofpodcast.com or you can go to iappodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode350 and you can get all the Stuff We Like ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to chat with you on the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise. Happy New year.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year, everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon:
And no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!