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Wild Health Website | TruDiagnostic Website

Welcome to Episode 412 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SHOW NOTES

SPECIAL GUEST

Dr. Matt Dawson is the CEO and Co-Founder of Wild Health, a genomics based precision medicine company. He is also CEO of TruDiagnostic, a deep science epigenetics company focused on human longevity testing. Dr. Dawson has published dozens of research articles, authored two textbooks, and written over 100 book chapters. He has won national awards in education and innovation and given talks in over 20 countries. He has a passion for not only human performance and longevity, but also bringing cutting edge research and science to market so that individuals can actually benefit from them. As such, he has founded 6 companies in the last decade, all of which are still in operation. Three of these have been acquired. His passion for human performance started in high school when he paired it with suboptimal natural athletic abilities to earn college scholarship offers in two different sports. His passion for longevity comes from a desire to be around as long as possible for his 4 children, wife, and future great grandchildren. He lives with that current family and two dogs in the woods of Kentucky.

Dr. Matthew Dawson attended medical school at The University of Kentucky before completing his residency in emergency medicine at The University of Utah, where he served as both chief resident and fellow. He has practiced medicine and was an associate professor at the University of Kentucky for 7 years, with an acute interest in functional medicine and, later, genomics. Dr. Dawson’s obsession with performance optimization began well before medical school. In high school, he would implement any fitness or nutrition technique that’d give him ‘an edge’ in athletics, resulting in college scholarship offers in two sports. Dr. Dawson carried this obsession with him through medical school and into his profession as a physician, earning numerous national awards for education, innovation, and leadership on account of his research and approach to health care.

‍Dr. Dawson crystallized this approach to providing patients with true health care, rather than sick care, by building Wild Health – a Precision Medicine service providing personalized, genetics-based care to help patients achieve optimal wellbeing. In that, Dr. Dawson has also trained thousands of physicians in Precision Medicine through online education, and has lectured in over twenty countries around the world. Dr. Dawson also co-hosts the Wild Health Podcast, a tool for teaching thousands about personalized, genetics-based Precision Medicine. His passion to help patients maximize their health span and perform at their absolute best considers all aspects of health: mental, physical, and spiritual.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 412 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Welcome back, friends, to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 412. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here today with a very, very special guest. So the backstory on today's conversation, a while ago now, I got reached out to by a company called Wild Health. And they're doing very cool things when it comes to monitoring everything in your body that you need to be monitoring to actually take charge of your health right now, to take charge of your aging and longevity, all the things. I was really intrigued by their service because I know it can be really confusing, I think, for a lot of people to really navigate what's going on in their body. And there's so many different markers to look at. There's blood, there's genetics, there's just so many things. And what I really loved about Wild Health is it's a platform that encompasses all of that and analyzes things for you and makes things very implementable and approachable. So it looks at your blood work, it looks at your DNA, your genetic tendencies, it even looks at your biological age. And we'll dive into what that actually means. What's really cool is it's really easy to do to take the test, all the things. And then you have the portal, you have your results, you get this really comprehensive, like 50-page report that I was reading last night, again, and was fascinated by. And you actually get to work with coaches and practitioners in the portal to help make sense of everything. So I think the service is going to be so helpful for so many people. And I have so many questions as well as my own personal experience to share. So I'm here with the CEO and co-founder, Dr. Matt Dawson. Dr. Dawson, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Thanks for having me. You get such a great description of what we do. You nailed it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, thank you. I really like because I feel like there are a lot of different companies trying to do what you're doing. And I like I said, I was very, very impressed with just the whole system and everything that I learned personally and and where the focuses are. But to introduce yourself a little bit to listeners. Can you tell listeners a little bit about your personal story? I know you attended medical school at the University of Kentucky and you did your residency in emergency medicine at the University of Utah. And you've published a lot when it comes to textbooks and articles and things like that. But what led you to what you're doing today with this wild health service?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Sure. Yeah. So you're right. So I went to kind of traditional medicine route at first, and it was around six years ago. I was working at an academic center. I was teaching med students and residents and writing and publishing and doing all that. I started noticing all of the science emerging around genomics and personalized medicine. And it looked to me like for the first time that we could really personalize almost everything down to the level of someone's DNA. Like we've known for a while that you can look and see what medications will or won't work, what someone's likely to have side effects from. But it looked like you could even personalize diet, exercise, sleep, supplements, all of these other things. I kind of started diving into that, went down a rabbit hole when it comes to that. My co-founder at Wild Health, Mike Malin, he's also a physician. We sequenced our DNA. We started looking into it. And around that time, he had a difficult medical issue. He found out that his lipids were through the roof, like a really dangerous level, like cause a heart attack level. So he saw his doctor. His doctor told him to do a specific diet that works for most people, but Mike's not most people. He's Mike, and he got worse on this diet. So his doctor then wanted to put him on a statin, which is fine. It helps most people. But Mike had a bunch of side effects for him. I had muscle breakdown, myopathy. And when we looked at his genetics, we saw that, oh, wow, it looks like his genetics needs to be on almost the exact opposite diet of what his doctor had put him on. And he had a very specific gene variation that made him almost guaranteed to get that muscle breakdown of myopathy. And we were kind of angry at first, but then we just realized, well, medicine is always 15 to 20 years behind. And while the science is out there, no one is doing this. And we couldn't really tolerate that. We left our universities. We started doing it for friends and family, and just started having really remarkable results when we started personalizing people's treatment and recommendations to their DNA.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I love this so much. And like I said, I was reading my report last night and it was, I guess, validating. It was nice to read some of the different sections and just see how much it aligned with me personally. So for example, in the sleep analysis, it was telling me that I have a genetic tendency to be a night owl, which is so true. In the food sections, it was telling me that I might have increased gluten and wheat sensitivity. Oh, in the mental section, there was one about how I tend to be dopamine driven, which is literally what I say about myself all the time that I feel like I keep a lot of dopamine around in my brain. So, okay, I have so many questions here. So these genetic tendencies that we have, how do you approach, because you just mentioned that, you looked at his data and you realized that he wasn't on the appropriate diet and all of these things. It mentions on wild health that there are, is it over 70,000 different SNPs? And maybe you can define what a SNP is. How do you decide which ones to look at? How to interpret them? And also, how do we know it's accurate? Because I noticed, for example, in the section that talks about your APOE, or was it the APOB? One of them, it was saying that it's actually, I think it's probably the APOE, one, that it's hard with accuracy to actually test that. So how do we know that what we're testing is accurate? How do you know what to test? And how do you know how to interpret it? Lots of questions.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, no great questions. And yeah, it's about 700,000 specific SNPs that we test, and a SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. So it just means that it's a slight variation, and it just puts you at increased or decreased risk for something. So APOE is a good example of one of those. So if you have an APOE4 gene, then you're about 200 to 300% more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease. And if you have two of those, if you have an APOE4, you're about 11 times more likely. So someone is at more risk. Now, your DNA is not your destiny. We've heard this term DNA is destiny. It's not. It's only about 20% of your health outcome. And that APOE4 is a great example of that. So one of the first patients that we saw was my mother. My grandmother had passed away of dementia of this disease, and I was worried that my mother would have this gene, and sure enough, she did. But what I told her at the time is I said, mom, this is good news, because we know about this now, and we know what to do about it. And when we put her on the program, personalizing her diet, her sleep, her exercise, in three months, she lost 40 pounds, reversed her insulin resistance, told me she felt 20 years younger, and I think that we will prevent, or at least delay by 10 to 20 years, her getting that disease. So we find these differences in our genes, and we do something about them. You ask about diet. So another example of that is actually, I told about Mike and his diet. One of this was kind of an aha moment for both of us when we look at our genes. It looked like when we looked at our genes that he and I needed to be on pretty much the opposite diets. So he had all of these sensitivities to saturated fats, where I had none of those. And I had all these sensitivities to carbohydrates. And so it looked like I almost would do really well on a ketogenic animal-heavy diet, and he would do well on almost a vegan diet. And so we tested this. We would eat the exact same thing for two weeks, do the same workouts, draw our blood. And we were eating his diet. He destroyed me in the workouts. It was much better. His lab looked great. He felt great. When we switched to my diet, I would beat him in the same workouts. I felt great. He felt horrible. His labs were bad. Mine were good. And we're like, wow, this is why it's like religious wars when people talk about diet, like people they're keto or they're vegetarian or vegan or omnivore or carnivore or Mediterranean. It's because people find the perfect diet for themselves, and they assume it's perfect for everybody else. But we're not like that. We're very bio-individual, and personalizing all of these things makes a big difference in how we feel and perform and the diseases that we get.

Melanie Avalon

It's so interesting and I think it is so relevant to so many listeners on this show because we get so many questions about people having that very debate that you just talked about. Do I do lower carb? Do I do lower fat? I think it can be really confusing and of course you can do trial and error and try it yourself but having this lens of looking at through your DNA can just be so, so helpful. And what I found really interesting is cause I really gravitate towards an animal based diet. A lot of my genetic SNPs really did seem to line up with that. So for example, I saw that I have difficulty converting a lot of the plant based sources of vitamins into their usable form in my body and so I would benefit from having an animal based diet there with those different nutrients. How do you handle potentially conflicting genetic information that may pop up? So for example, my general recommendations in my report were that I tolerate saturated fat well, that I tend to tolerate carbs like okay, like in the middle. In general I was getting like low carb recommendations but then also at the same time some of the SNPs indicated that I'd be better on a high carb low fat approach. So how do you handle that when people have SNPs that seem to be conflicting?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah. So you said something important earlier. I want to go back to you said, it seems like a lot of people are trying to do this. And I think it's important to use that word, because one of the things we realized very early is it's not easy. Like, this is very complex. So, I mean, we, we've spent over $50 million on the platform to do this. And so it we use, we built this on an AI platform that takes into account, not just all your genetics, but also the blood work and a lot of other information as well. So like, you'll get kind of the general recommendations that will pop up and populate in there based on all the different SNPs. But then we also, the last step is actually running this through a physician and a health coach filter as well. That's where we give the final recommendation to kind of edit things. And but what the AI engine does is it kind of pulls together all the different stuff to make specific recommendations. I mentioned earlier, I'll give you a good example from food. With food, we don't really actually usually talk in terms of the big macro diets, the big macro categories, like vegan, omnivore, keto, things like that. We talk in specific foods, like what are potentially super foods versus kryptonite foods. So like for my mother, a couple of the steps that you mentioned, so there's a fads too, that means she needs more of the active form of omega three from animals. She also has a collagen 5A1 snip, which means she needs more collagen protein and a VDR snip, meaning she probably needs more vitamin D, a BCMO, meaning she needs more vitamin A. So when you put those together, the algorithm said, okay, for you, the world's perfect food looks like it's probably a sardine. It has a really clean source of omega three. It has a collagen protein in the skin and the bones. It has vitamin A and vitamin D in the organs because it's a whole animal. And so it kind of put all of that together. And then for kryptonite foods, you mentioned you had some sensitivities to wheat and gluten. She had that as well. So that's an SH2B3 gene, but she also had an MCM6. So it meant dairy is inflammatory for her. So identifying kind of the super foods and kryptonite foods, we think is a better way to go about talking about food than kind of the bigger categories itself. But at the same time, if you're seeing the doctor and the health coach and you're talking through some of these things now for you, if it looks like, well, you have some genes that mean you need more, that you'll be fine with, with fats and animal, animal fats and some where you need more complex carbohydrates. Well, then we're going to look at your lab tests. So for example, if your ApoB, your kind of most atherogenic cholesterol particle is through the roof, that may give us a little bit of pause on the animal proteins. But if your hemoglobin A1c is really high and you have a lot of insulin sensitivity, that may give us some pause towards the carbohydrates. So we would tailor the recommendations based not just on the genetics, but the lab tests as well.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And then what also are your goals around activity and exercise and things like that. So it's a complex picture that we use the AI engine to make most of the recommendations. And then we add on the kind of doctor and health coach, their kind of final look and talking to the patient as well.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. Yeah, because I think, well, first of all, I want to say you did a really good job with the report of having it be very comprehensive. Like there's so much information, but also it is very approachable. It's very readable. So I really appreciate that aspect. And I really liked that. So basically AI can, you know, analyze and generate all of these findings, but then having that conversation with a real human being who can walk you through it. And, and that's what I remember when I met with my health coach, she was very knowledgeable and helpful in saying like, this is what this actually means. Like she was saying, like, you know, I know there's like a lot of data here, but here's what we're actually looking at. And then like you just said, when we actually look at your blood work, what do we see and what changes should we make? And I actually made a very practical, implementable change immediately after having this conversation. And that was that, cause I'm looking right now at my, like the summary at the very end. And it looks at like your lipids, your methylation, your vitamins and micronutrients, your hormones, your inflammation and your insulin resistance slash, slash metabolism. The one category that's like all red is my methylation category, which I have known. I've, I've known, I, I struggled with that in the past, but it was nice because talking to her, she was like, okay, like what, you know, what you need to do is you really need to be on a methyl folate supplement here. It's also interesting because, you know, based on the whole context of that, which it talks about in the report, apparently there are different ways that you could go about addressing it based on the whole comprehensive picture. But what she was saying with me was to get on that and now, and I've been on that and I've seen a big difference. So, so thank you. That was like a very like practical change that I made.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And I'll make one point about that, about the provider and things, too. This is called precision medicine. I like to remind people it's precision medicine, not perfect medicine. So our recommendations as a physician or a health coach or a provider is only as good as the amount of data we have. So the fact that we have an incredible amount of data about your genes, all the biomarkers, scientific data, all of this, means we're going to be able to give much better recommendations, but we still need to follow that over time and make sure that what we're recommending is actually working. So I think the relationship part of this is really important, too, having that relationship with a physician health coach that can interpret, like you were mentioning. And like things I mentioned earlier, like from my mother, they identified that sardines was the world's perfect food. Well, the perfect food and perfect diet for you is the one that you're going to be able to follow as well. If she had said, that's disgusting, I'm not going to eat sardines, well, then we would have just found other ways to kind of plug those holes and give her that extra support that she needs. So it is definitely, the AI platform is very powerful, but having that human with it and following someone over time, because humans are complex, is a very important part of the process.

Melanie Avalon

with the evolution of AI, is it continuously updated? And do you ever have to retest your genes ever, or is that technology pretty much done like you've done the testing, and now AI can just adapt to interpreting it?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah. So you would not have to retest your genetics. The AI itself, though, is getting better and is making the recommendations better and better over time. So when I say AI, though, I specifically think about two different things. So to be able to build all these recommendations, we need machine learning. A human's brain isn't, it's not the right tool to look at a million different variables and make recommendations. So you need machine learning for that. So that's what the platform is built on initially. However, the other thing that I mean when I say AI is large language models. So this has been a real game changer. So we took all of our, all of our IP, all the recommendation engine and all of that and put it on a large language model so that we could interact with it better. So for example, I have this app that we built on my phone, and I can actually interact with it. I can ask like I was giving a talk at an event in DC a few months ago, and I said to it, I said, Hey, I'm giving a talk. I'm in DC. I'm saying it's the Omni in DC. What should I have for lunch? And it gave me a specific meal at a restaurant point one miles away. That was based on it knows my genetics and I was on my lab work and who I slept that night, it knew that I lifted weights and went for a run that day, gave me the perfect meal at the perfect time there. So really cool stuff. And it can also it just pushes information like a few months ago, I got a notification from the LLM has all the status said, Hey, you are about you're overtraining, you're gonna get injured or sick. So I chatted back with it and said, Well, how do you know that? And it showed me all my HRV data, my resting heart rate trends, and I thought, Oh, yeah, I've been traveling and working out just as hard not sleeping. Well, historically, I would have just pushed through that and gotten sick or injured. But I saw this and then I said, Well, give me a program to recover over the next two weeks. And it knows my goals. At the time I was training to climb this mountain in Ecuador, and trying to improve my pickleball game. Those are my only only two goals. So it gave me recommendations personalized to me for those goals and to recover and follow that. So the LLMs are a real game changer and being able to interact with your with your data. Now that app itself, unfortunately, is not on the market. It actually was so good, we ended up taking it down because we were worried from a regulatory standpoint, it'd be seen as a practicing medicine. But we built it into our product where now, if you ask a question of your doctor and health coach, the LLM intercepts it, it gives them a suggested response because it knows everything about you. And the doctor hasn't memorized your 700,000 genes probably. And then the provider can kind of modify it or just use it or reject it and give a new answer. But we found when we first implemented that, the providers only use it about 20% of the time. But now it's over 90% of the time because the answers are phenomenal. Like they're just really good, much better than a than a regular person would give an answer.

Melanie Avalon

Do you think AI will ever completely take the place of humans?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, great question. So there's a couple different ways to think about that. Like if you asked me the question, is AI better at making medical diagnosis than doctors? There's no question. It's just much better. Like there's lots of data on that. There's also data comparing like Chad GPT to physicians and blinded. Well, because people said, well, okay, it's better making diagnosis, but the people are more empathetic. So then they tested that and when people were blinded chatting with a doctor, Chad GPT, they actually rated Chad GPT more empathetic too.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. I believe that.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So if you were to tell me your options are a doctor or AI, I take the AI every day, like I just do, and I am a physician. I don't actually think that's the decision though, just like when, let's think about chess. It took a long time before Big Blue, which is an AI machine from IBM, beat the world's best chess player. But the best chess player in the world now isn't a machine or a human, it's this combination. It's kind of a centaur. So what you want is a physician you really trust who stays super up to date and who is using the AI. Like you want the combination of the two is what I think the best medical care is now and in the future.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'm really interested by it. I did an episode recently on AI. The whole book was actually about the future of health care in regards to like technology and AI and stuff. And he was saying that the reason the synergy of humans and AI can surpass just AI is that AI doesn't have the ability to, I guess at least right now, to think outside of its own rule system. And sometimes you need to think outside of... You need to not break the rules, but you need to be able to think outside the box in that regard.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, I go really deep on this, especially the last couple weeks has been a crazy time in AI. And I would say, I don't know if I, I think you actually could train the AI to be much better at humans and we have that thinking out of the box and being creative. So I'm not I'm not sure if that's the separator. Maybe it is. I can give you another example, though, where them working together is really important. We had a patient who was young, like in the early 40s, executive came to us very healthy, no medical problems, just wanted to optimize probably like the 95th percentile already wanted to go to the 99th percentile. So great. We ran all of the stuff. And we got an alert from the AI from the large language model that said, Hey, notice some things like in his genetics and labs and things like this guy needs a deeper dive on cardiovascular health. So I as a physician or clinician, like no one would have said that this guy's perfectly healthy, young, we would have not got a clearly scan, which is an AI guy to CT angiogram for him, we would not have done that for him. It just didn't make sense. And from a textbook, but the AI picked it up. However, then actually having him do that, I don't know if he would have actually gone through the trouble of doing it, because he felt fine if just the AI was telling him, but he trusted us as a clinician. So it was kind of that combination of the AI finding it and then and then him trusting the human. And in fact, he got the scan, we got an emergency call from the radiologist who said he needs to go to the cath lab immediately he had like a 90% lesion and his LED, which is called the widow maker artery. And if he hadn't had this done, he probably would have died of a massive heart attack in the next year or two. And this was an example of the AI and the human either one of them alone, like would have been probably been a little deficient wouldn't have gotten this outcome. And now, I mean, this guy who he had two teenage daughters, and he's going to be with them hopefully for 40 more years instead of one to two years. So that's, that's just the example that pops to my mind when I think about humans and AI kind of working together to really deliver the next level of of medical care.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, yeah, I love that. Do you think there will be any, since AI has this super power to be able to analyze all this data, do you think it will come up with any really surprising findings or change our opinions on what we've historically thought about different medical conditions, treating them, like things like that? Paradigm shifts, basically.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

100%. And that's kind of why other guys, that's kind of why I push back on his thinking outside the box. Because when I look at this, like, AI, and people could argue about this word, I see AI is much more creative than humans already. And I wouldn't even say that a year ago, it's just progressing so quickly. Like, when you watch the emerging things that come out, or its ability to put things together, like creativity is really about pulling together kind of disparate things from different places to come up with new and novel ideas. They're really it's, it's fusing different different areas. And AI is amazing at that. So I yeah, I think AI, it's already in drug discovery, so many other areas, it's making a tremendous difference and really changing the care, we see it all the time and the recommendations that it makes, and the things that it comes up with, it's, it's very creative, and is definitely going to be showing us new ways to deal with things.

Melanie Avalon

Actually to that point, because so last night, so like I said, I did this a while ago, I read my report then last night, I went in and downloaded my report again, when it's generating the report, is it updating it when you go in?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, I don't think it is if you don't have new data, and I say I don't think it is because if it was like a year or two ago, then I think you would get a new report because there's been updates. But when you would get a new report is one, if there are updates pushed in the system or two, when you're feeding it more data. So if you had just had a new lab test, for example, then there would be a new report. But if there's no new data, then it would be the same report and recommendations.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, gotcha. One other question there. Oh, so when people are reading their results, when it's talking about these different SNPs, these, you know, genetics that people have, it'll say that you might have an increased or reduced risk of XYZ, you know, whatever condition or thing it's talking about in that section. How should we interpret that word risk? Especially if we don't know what the normal risk is for something. Yeah, how do we know the severity of what this means with this word risk? And is it like absolute or relative? Like, what's going on?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

there? That's a great question, and we could actually try to build that into the report and say it increases your risk by X amount, which means this, so therefore this. That would turn it into hundreds of pages, so that's part of where the human comes in, and that's why it's important to have a doctor and health coach, because if you have a PEMT SNP or some other SNP that says, oh, based on this, you have this increased risk of blood cancers or something like that, that can sound scary, but if you have the physician or the provider who has a context around that, it's like, okay, yeah, that means your risk of blood cancer goes from 0.5% to 0.6%, then that's like a one in a thousand increased risk that you got, so it's not a really big number, or even if it's a 1% for a 2%, that can sound scary, because you think, oh, my risk has doubled. Well, it's doubled from a relative risk standpoint, but still, from going from 1% to 2%, that's a 1% absolute, so it's a 1 in a hundred risk, so it's not really much to be worried about, like the stress from you thinking about that and constantly trying to do something about it is probably worse than having it, so it is important to have someone who can give you that context with these, quote, unquote, risks as well.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, awesome. Yeah, I did notice in the report that it was with one of the cancer related things that it actually gave me a little bit more data more in the language that you're using. And I had a feeling it was because for what the reason you just said, because you want it to be clear, like what it actually means practically. Okay, on the blood side testing side of things, so for listeners, so when you do this program, you get the genetic information, which that was a saliva test, right? The genetics. That's right. And then you also do a blood test and get a lot of biomarkers. How did you decide which biomarkers to include on the blood test and how did you decide the ranges?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

We basically said, okay, in the first assessment of someone, we want a lot. We kind of want as much information as we can reasonably get that doesn't kind of break the bank for them. So it's a large amount of tests initially. On follow-up testing, we try to get more targeted and specific, like what did we find? What are the risks? What are the things that we need to follow? So it's normally smaller tests. So we really picked, I think there's around 50-something biomarkers we start with, and we just think those are the ones that are most impactful. Now, there are others we could add. So if we do the testing and we're talking and we find that someone has elevated inflammatory markers and we just can't figure out exactly why, then we may add a lot more things. We may add some food sensitivity testing or some other toxin testing. If we're talking to someone and it sounds like hormones are an issue, we may do more advanced hormone testing. So the initial set is designed to give us the most bang for our buck, the most information without breaking the bank, and then we get very targeted from there when picking the lab test. And oh, you mentioned reference ranges. Yeah, so there are certainly classic reference ranges, and we'll use those for a lot of the tests, but others we try to use ranges that we consider more optimal for. There's an example, you mentioned methylation status. So homocysteine, I think a standard lab panels, they'll say it's normal if it's under 14. Well, we want you to be kind of under 10. Vitamin D, you may on some lab reports not get a quote unquote deficient number unless you're under 20. We want you definitely to be above 30 and optimally to be around 50 or more. So we do modify some to be more optimal range than just non-diseased.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, one of the personal findings I had, this was really interesting to me because this has been my theory for like a decade. And then getting my information back, I was like, okay, maybe, maybe this is correct, which is that, and this is again, this is showing how you look at the blood and the genetics. I always have high B12, like always, I test high for it. And so I tested high on this one for the blood work as well. But it said in my genetic analysis that I have a SNP which makes it hard for B12 to get into my cells. And so when I was talking with the practitioner to reviewing everything, I was like, oh, could this maybe be why it's always high for me because it's not getting into my cells, it's just like staying in my bloodstream. She agreed with me on that. So I thought that was really, really interesting. Another question, so the biological age test that people take. So what is the role of that? What is the difference between biological age and chronological age?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Sure. Yeah. So, chronologically, it's just pretty easy. That's how many years you've been alive. Most people know that. If you don't, you can look at your driver's license and there it is. The biology age is different. So, first off, age is the number one risk factor for almost every chronic disease. But we all know people who may be 40, but they look and feel and perform like a 30-year-old or a 50-year-old. So, that's more of a biologic age. What is your risk of getting diseases? Morbidity. And what is your risk of dying? Mortality. And traditionally, for years, there's been multiple of these biologic age tests that are out there. Most of them are not good. They're kind of junk. They're not validated. They may just be based on some random algorithm. But are they really telling you what you want to know, which is, am I increasing or decreasing risk of dying? And am I increasing or decreasing risk of getting disease? That's what we really want to know. That's kind of a true biologic age. At Wild Health, we use a company called True Diagnostic for that. Now, True Diagnostic is just to call out a conflict here. I am CEO of True Diagnostic as well. So, we were using True Diagnostic for years before I came in and started working with True Diagnostic. The reason why I like True Diagnostic is because of one specific test they have that I have used for years I really like, which is called the PACE test. So, I don't actually care that much if we get your biologic age back. And let's say you're chronologically 40, but your biologic age tells me you're 36 versus 44. I'm just going to try to optimize you either way. And if it tells me you're 44, biologically, and let's say that we believe that result, well, are you doing everything perfect now and you just had a really rough go of it in your 20s and 30s? Or is it reflecting something that's going on right now? That's unclear to me as well. What I like about the PACE test, this is a test about by Duke, it tells you what is your rate of aging right now. So, it's information right now. And what's great about it is it is very sensitive to change. Meaning, for example, if you get pregnant, that's a physiologic stress and your rate of aging goes up about 20 percent, but then it comes back down to normal when you deliver the baby. Same thing happens if you get COVID, have hip surgery, get a car accident, your rate of aging goes up, but it comes back down when you recover. What this allows me to do as a clinician is to do end-of-one experiments to figure out what is going to reduce your rate of aging. So, Stanford did a great study. Actually, it's not a great study. There are a lot of problems with the study, but the interesting thing about the study was there's this twin study where they move people back and forth between a vegan and an omnivore diet. And then they measured lots of things, but one of the things they measured was this PACE of aging. And they found that in eight weeks, changing your diet, you can have an effect on your rate of aging.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, we could change someone's diet and see how it affects the rate of aging. Or if someone says, I want to go to Panama and get IV stem cells. Well, that's expensive. If you're going to invest $40,000, it would be good to have an objective measure of something like rate of aging that we could look at and see if it affects that. Or if you're going to try a wrap of ice in or some other supplement stacks or other things. It's nice to have an integrator of all your health, like rate of aging to follow over time and try to push down as low as possible.

Melanie Avalon

okay, I am loving this part of the conversation so much. I mean, I've been loving the whole thing, but I'm really loving this. And I just pulled up my report as well. So mine was 10.64 years younger was my biological age, which it says puts me in the top 16% of the population. For that pace that you were talking about, mine was 0.67.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

That's that's incredible. Yeah. So the way the pace works is if you get a score of this one point zero, that means you're aging at the normal rate for someone your age and sex. If it's one point two, you're aging 20 percent faster. If it's point eight, you're you're aging 20 percent slower. So point six seven is remarkable. That means you're aging at two thirds normal rates. That means for for over 30 years, you're only going to age 20. You'll be 10 years younger than you should be in 30 years from now. So that is that is definitely one of the lowest ones I've seen. That's really incredible. It just means that you're you're doing a lot of things right. Like you're killing it. That's a really impressive pace score.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, wow. Okay. I'm really excited. And you said this was based on.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, this is developed by Duke. They have a really large cohort called the Dunedin cohort is a large group of people out of New Zealand that were followed for decades. And they followed them and watched how they aged, what diseases they got and things. And then they drew longitudinal blood samples over time. And then from that, they could derive and figure out what is your pace of aging based on different epigenetic markers. So this is epigenetics. So we sequence someone's DNA once, that's your genetics, that never changes. But I mentioned earlier, genetics is 20% of your health outcome. The other 80% are epigenetics, what you do, what you eat, your stress levels, how you sleep. And so you're doing all of that right, it seems like. And so the way we measure this pace is we look at gene expression, epigenetics. So it looks at about a million gene sites and tells how much each one is turned up or turned down, how much you're expressing those good or bad genes. And you turn them up and down by changing different lifestyle factors. And so from that, then they can derive what is your pace of aging. So that's how it is from that Duke study specifically, but that's a remarkable pace, that's great.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. And for listeners, when you get your report, it breaks it down into all these different organ systems, so 11 different systems, and it shows you are you aging, you know, slower or the same or faster in each one. So it's like heart, inflammation, metabolic brain, musculoskeletal, kidneys, liver, lungs, blood, immune hormones.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, and to be specific not only about that, so technically on the report, the trade report, you're going to get three different clocks. So Harvard developed a clock on the Olmec M.H. And that is probably the one where you said you're 10 years younger. That's the best predictor of kind of mortality, like your risk of dying. So you have a much lower risk of dying than someone your age. The other one you mentioned with the Oregon systems, that's from Yale. So Yale developed that one. It's called the symphony age. That's right. And because we age in a heterogeneous manner, like if someone drinks odd alcohol, their liver is going to age more quickly. If they're smoking, their lungs are going to age more quickly. So that's a nice one to figure out kind of maybe what is your weakest link. And then the pace one is from Duke. So three very different epigenetic clocks there.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, and so they should in theory align or do they often not?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Well, they're giving you different information. So, yours are pretty aligned. Like, you're only getting ages 10 years younger and your pace is 0.67. Both of those are remarkable. I don't see your symphony age, but most of your organ systems are probably going to be lower as well. Maybe not all of them. So, they do line up in general, but they're measuring three different things. So, they're really telling you different information. And I will say for any of your listeners that do this, like, don't be disappointed when your results aren't like Melanie's. That's a phenomenal result you've got.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, wow. Yeah, for the symphony, they're all aging slowly except for immune and hormones. Very interesting.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And things change over time too, so it could be that when you repeat the test, there could just be a certain reason at that time that those may be a little off as well.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, this is so interesting to me. Two quick questions. One, because you're mentioning this, well, first of all, I love this idea about how one of them, like the pace is looking at like your pace of aging. That is so, so cool. Practically, it seems like a person could be aging slower. And then like you were saying, that means when you live chronologically this amount of time, but you're only going to quote age this other amount of time. And at the same time, it seems like there's a limit to how long we can live. Basically, my question is, do people age at different rates, but then is there still like this final timeline that once you hit it, you hit it?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

What I'll say to you is, so far, no one has ever not died necessarily that we have on record. That we're aware of. Yeah, so where is that limit? People argue over that all the time, like, is there an intrinsic limit? Is it 120? Like, where is it? I don't know. And as science progresses, like, we're going to get better and better. People are living longer and longer. But yes, it's really about slowing the rate of aging. And the other thing about the slowing rate of aging, it's not just about living longer. You're just going to feel better and perform better. So it's not even like how much time we're adding to your life by slowing the rate of aging. But I mean, when you're 60, it'd be great if you feel and perform like you're 50 or 40. And when you're 80, like, you feel like you're 60. So it's really about optimizing your health now and how you feel later, too, is that the rate of aging, that's the big thing. Because most of us don't actually die of old age. We die of cardiovascular disease, dementia, cancer. These are the big killers. So while health, we're trying to slow down your rate of aging and optimize and make you feel as good as we can now. But we're also really aggressively screening for and trying to prevent those big things as well at the same time, because that's really what's going to lead to a shorter life for most of us.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I have sort of a nuanced question. I hope I can articulate it. Let's say a person gets a test, like does this test, does the true diagnostics and gets all this aging information. So they have the potential to make lifestyle changes that will change the epigenetics. And if they are to retest, you know, in the future, hopefully they would see a beneficial change in that they're now aging slower based on these lifestyle changes that change their epigenetics. Is aging itself still a factor going against us? And what I mean by that is, even if they make these beneficial changes, if they test a year from now, does that year of aging, is that always going to be kind of a negative in affecting their rate of aging?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

If someone, if two people, let's say two people are doing the exact same things, they have the same genetics and everything else, if one of them is chronologically a year older, they're just going to have higher risk factors. So, it just is a risk factor in and of itself. Now, I think you were kind of asking the question like could maybe, and you tell me if this is a question, what was the question maybe like can you like reverse your biologic age and kind of be younger over time as well? Was that the kind of

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I think this is the reason I thought about it, because I was like, okay, I feel good about my results right now, so if I retest in a year and I haven't changed anything, but I've aged a year, is that going to slightly make my results not as good?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Right, so if you're not changing anything, you test in a year, you're in the same position, your rate of aging should, so what would most likely happen is your rate of aging.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, does aging affect the rate of aging?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah no it doesn't so okay now i got you yeah so your rate of aging if you're not doing anything anymore in poorly or any better should stay the same so the rate of should change so what you see for example you have that call your rate aging is say point six seven. And then in the three years you retest your rating still point six seven but your biologic age the one where you got a number that probably is only gonna go by two years instead of the three years. So that's that's the what you can see from that.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, gotcha. I've had David Sinclair on the show a few times and he has, you know, he came out with a book and his whole hypothesis was aging is a disease. Do you think aging is a disease?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, I think it's semantics, and what I mean by that is if we want to get, like, funding from NIH and places like that, it makes sense to call aging a disease. At the same time, aging is unnatural. Everyone ages, so is that does everyone have a disease here? So it really kind of depends on what you're trying to do with the word, like does it lose its meaning if you say aging? Now I've heard some people, like the argument, which is an interesting one, that disease, to kind of flip this around, disease is just aging of certain organs. So it's another way to look at it. When we have dementia, that's just aging of the brain in an accelerated fashion, or cardiovascular disease, aging of the heart. So is aging a disease? I think, honestly, the answer to that is it's a semantic question, and it's around words. If it's helpful for us to think of it as a disease so that we actually get more funding to treat it, then that's great. Because if we were to able to spend money on reducing the rate of aging of people, that would be way more effective than all the research that's going into individual diseases because aging is the number one risk factor for pretty much every chronic disease.

Melanie Avalon

That's pretty much the argument or the thoughts I subscribe to as well. Okay. I could ask you a million more questions, but I will stop myself. So listeners, I think you can see just how incredible this wild health platform is. So to recap, when you do this, you get all of this. So you get that genetic test where you're getting your risks for health based on your genetic DNA, you're getting that blood work, so a picture of what's happening right now and looking at it through these idealized ranges. And then also this biological age test where you're looking at epigenetics and looking at your rate of aging and things like that. And you get to work with a practitioner to help make sense of everything. But it's really an incredible platform. I'm so, so excited about it. Yeah, when listeners sign up and do this, how often do you recommend they do retesting? What will it look like practically for listeners to do this service?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, so what happens if someone signs up, they get DNA tests comes to their house, the blood work is just we just put an order in and you get that done. A lot of the testing is done at your house where we arrange it. You have the meeting with a physician health coach and then kind of the cadence from there, the retesting depends on what's going on and what we find. Sometimes we may repeat testing pretty quickly based on what we see or sometimes maybe it's not until another three or six months. It kind of depends on what we identify are the main issues and what we want to work on. Some things take a while to change, other things change pretty quickly. So after the initial all the testing and the meetings with the providers, it's a pretty individualized and personalized program from there just based on what you need.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. So friends, listeners, I really cannot recommend this enough and we have an awesome offer for you guys. So thank you so much for that. You can get 20% off a wild health membership when you use the code Melanie Avalon and that will be at wildhealth.com slash Melanie Avalon. So definitely check that out. This is, this has been so amazing. What are you most excited about with the future of all of this?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, it's very clear to me. It's epigenetics. So, the pace of aging and all that, that comes from epigenetics, but there's so much more we can do. There's a true diagnostic. We just did this big study with Harvard where we found that we could actually predict and report on hundreds, if not thousands, of biomarkers just with an epigenetic test. So, you get so much data at much lower cost. So, there's a new product called TrueHealth that True Diagnostic has reported on about 130 biomarkers with the same just few drops of blood that the TrueAge test uses as well. So, in the future, in the next few years, we'll be able to give tens of thousands of dollars worth of data and biomarkers for hundreds of dollars. So, just the amount of data that we have to optimize our self-worth and to prevent disease and predict diseases is going up exponentially.

Melanie Avalon

Amazing. How often do you take your blood work?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

I go overboard with it. I'm probably once a month testing, but I'm always doing different experiments and I want the data. So I'm testing a lot. I don't really recommend that often to anybody else. It's a lot.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Dawson. This has been incredible. Again, listeners go to wildhealth.com slash Melanie Avalon, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 20% off. Yeah, this has been so incredible and exciting. Thank you so much for all you're doing. It's changing so many lives. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Thank you, Millie. It was a lot of fun. You asked great questions, so thanks so much for having me on.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Feb 23

Episode 410 – Autophagy Genes, Biohack Yourself, Fruitarianism, Eating Timing, Barefoot Shoes, Serrapeptase & MCT Oil, Fat-Fueled Exercise Problems, Protein Needs, And More!

Derek Duvall Show Episode 237: Melanie Avalon - Founder of AvalonX, Podcaster & Actress

Welcome to Episode 410 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Barry’s Upcoming Show: Destiny

STUDIES

Dawn-to-dusk intermittent fasting is associated with overexpression of autophagy genes: A prospective study on overweight and obese cohort

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 410 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of Avalon X and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of banter with BC. For more on us, check out Melanie Avalon.com and Barry Conrad official.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at I have podcast.com or by going to I have podcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show to not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 410 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Barry Conrad. How are you today, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I'm doing really well. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon

I'm good, what's new in your life?

Barry Conrad

Well, it's a beautiful day here in Sydney. The sun is shining. It's currently one o'clock. What is the time in Atlanta right now? I know we have a list as we have a wild.

Melanie Avalon

9 p.m.

Barry Conrad

I've actually been doing, earlier today, some work on some character work for my play that's happening later this year, Destiny. So that's been really, really good just diving into the character a bit more and excavating, I should say. So that's been really, really fulfilling and fun to do.

Melanie Avalon

That's so exciting. And when will you actually be performing that?

Barry Conrad

Yes, so listeners, it's called Destiny and we head into into work in July, but it runs from October 18th onwards. So if you're in Australia or you're going to be traveling here, please come see it. We'd love to see you at the show. It's going to be really special because of what it's about. So, yeah, I'd love to see you there.

Melanie Avalon

That's a long lead-up, right? Yeah. Like, how does that compare to how many months you normally rehearse for a show?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, well, we have well, usually it's maybe a couple months. So this is a longer lead up, but there's also more intermittent sort of workshops beforehand, which is really good where we get to actually be part of the process more, which has been really, really good and rewarding as an actor to have more of a say, you know, because it's a play and it's something different to sort of musical theater that I've done before. So that's why it is different. And it's, I'm so excited. I'm really, really excited about this Mel. So yeah, we'll have to put a link in the show notes for people if they're going to be around or happen to be in Australia, so they can check it out. Oh, definitely.

Melanie Avalon

Definitely. I'm so excited for you and I'm so proud of you. Wanna come? It's so awesome.

Barry Conrad

Come for a day what about you what's what's happening in melanie evolones world right now.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really curious by the time this comes out, because there's so many different potential products I'm working on right now, I'm curious what will be actually launched by the time this airs. The coffee line I'm making, Glow Coffee, my EMF blocking product line, which I know I've been talking about it for so long, but it's actually, like it's in production now, so we should be launching that sometime this quarter. We have our next two things we want to make for my supplement line, so hopefully one of those will be coming out around February. Then my really big project, which is, I don't know if I mentioned it on the show, I probably have the dating app that I'm working on, so lots of things, lots of things.

Barry Conrad

Bring it on, bring it on. Exciting.

Melanie Avalon

And I'm hoping to be going to some more conferences around this time as well. Oh, oh, I will. I'm actually going, I'm so excited. I'm going at the end of January. So I will have gotten back from it a few weeks ago, but I'm going to Sundance Film Festival for the first time, which is very exciting. I think we talked about that. Yeah, I'm really excited. You should come to that, see the movies.

Barry Conrad

That x is it's tempting you know i hear your friend the person that you know with the project that's so that's so incredible what an achievement to be able to have that in. Be part of that festival right that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's so exciting. Hopefully someday we'll see you there in a film. That'd be awesome.

Barry Conrad

or even maybe you, when you fire back into the land of acting.

Melanie Avalon

You never know. This is very true. We should manifest it.

Barry Conrad

Would you ever want to is that something that you maybe want to maybe possibly potentially maybe kind of do later on again.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, we shall see if the stars align So Okay, so friends we have decided to start starting off the show with an intermittent fasting study And we're gonna make it a surprise like one of us is gonna prep it for the other person but this time we just Got one together. So this one is called dawn to dusk intermittent fasting is associated with overexpression of autophagy genes and Perspective study on overweight and obese cohort So this was this is a new study published so it's actually gonna be published in February 2025, but the preprint is online already and Long story short we talk about how intermittent fasting Has been shown to have effects on healthy aging and longevity often through Autophagy genes and we talked about autophagy a lot on this show But basically it's the process where your body Goes in and breaks down old and problematic proteins in your body and recycles them It gets rid of dysfunctional ones and then it recycles them to make new cells and you know new proteins in your body It's like a cleanse on the cellular level. We know that fasting supports it And so this study actually looked at 51 participants there was 36 males and 15 females and they were all overweight or obese and They also had six healthy subjects who were a normal BMI that group was used as the control and They monitored these different genes that are involved in increasing autophagy And they found that at the end of the fasting period Compared to the pre fasting period that the participants that were overweight and obese They saw a significant increase for three autophagy genes and it's a lot of letters, but it's LEMP to LC3B and ATG5 and that was up to 4.2 times increase so the first one was 4.2 times the second one was 1.9 times and the third one was 1.4 times and then they did check another fourth autophagy gene But it was not significantly increased and the type of fasting by the way, they're looking at Ramadan which a lot of the Studies will use Ramadan fasting as a way to test fasting related things because so many people are Doing it anyway as a part of that lifestyle. So yeah, they concluded that basically Fasting with Ramadan is associated with the upregulation of autophagy gene expressions And that this may in part explain the short-term metabolic and health improving effects on early aging Related markers and they said that if presumably may be protective Against aging and metabolic disease and people who are overweight or obese. So I thought that was pretty cool Barry What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad

This actually really blew my mind because what sort of really stood out to me about the study is in just those four weeks of the fasting, as you said, the 51 participants who like there were mostly people with overweight or obesity had like this huge boost in activity of those three key genes that you said. Like the one gene there, it's called LAMP2, which listens to sort of like the manager for our bodies cleanup crew sort of thing. And it actually increased over four times. It's like their bodies were going into like an overdrive to heal and protect themselves, which I thought was amazing. And I've got friends who are Muslims, so I'm very familiar with Ramadan and how they fast and then feast. So this makes total sense that they conducted this study in that way. And yes, sure, like, you know, the people in the study lost the way and, you know, maybe reduced their waistline or whatever. But from what I'm understanding from the study is that the benefits like they went deeper than the physical. So the glacial went up, their inflammation went way down. Even anti-aging markers improved, which again, why I love fasting. It's not just about the scale. It's about the overall health and longevity and what's happening inside. And I mean, Mel, I've been fasting for years now since not as long as you, but 2018 and seeing signs like this just confirms those benefits firsthand, like the non-scale victories, that it's not just sort of like a clickbaity fad. It's something that is actually impacting us on like a cellular level, like keeping our bodies thriving. And also I loved another thing is that it didn't just sort of focus on one outcome. It showed that fasting, it doesn't magically fix anything. It's a powerful tool in the toolkit for better health and sort of like creating habits for work to help our body work better. So whether that's weight, inflammation or whatnot. I mean, Mel, I'd love your take. Do you think Daunter Dusk fasting has an edge over 19.5, 16.8, 24. How do you think autophagy plays into not just longevity, but everyday energy and recovery?

Melanie Avalon

I love all of this so much. Before I answer your questions, it's really empowering because this concept of epigenetics is just so wonderful because basically everybody has these genes. It's not like you have this gene or you don't have this gene. It's not a genetic destiny in that way. It's epigenetics, meaning we have these genes and then how they're expressed, like how they're actually functioning and if they're turned on or not and how much they're working is really determined by environment and lifestyle. So it's so empowering because it's like anybody can turn this on. You don't have to have been born with the gene because you already have it. It's just, is it being expressed or manifest or is it on? And it's so great to know that fasting can turn these genes on. Yeah, so as far as like the different types, like the different types like dawn to dusk or more of an hour space approach. So honestly, for me, I feel like it really comes down to what are you going to do consistently. So rather than saying like one is better than the other, I think it's really about finding what can you do and stick to. And for some people, it's like a dawn to dusk type approach. For some people, it's like a one meal a day. For some people, it's 18.6. But I really think there's a magic and it's kind of like last episode when you were talking about like the concept of tiny habits. It's like what are you actually doing day in and day out? So I would encourage people to find the fasting that works for them. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that concept?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, we're all very individual. It's hard for, well, it wouldn't be fair to prescribe one protocol to any one person. So I think just doing what works best for your body, I do feel like this study has made me not rethink, but, you know, just the benefits of timing your window, like timing wise in terms of like the time of day, do you know what I mean? Like, you know, how eating earlier rather than too late at night, what do you think about that? Or do you think it has a, there's any difference eating super late at night versus capping off your eating earlier in the day? That's something that this did provoke me to think about in terms of that.

Melanie Avalon

I've done a lot of diving into that. It does seem like there are a lot of studies about the problems with eating at night and late night eating. That said, I think I like sat down and looked at the actual like what winter hormones being released and what things are being turned on at different times. And for me, I feel like it points to a later eating window, but still while it's laid out, if you're being quote ideal, I don't think the hormonal profile right when you wake up is one in which you should be eating because once when you wake up, you have like cortisol, you have adrenaline, you have things that are releasing endogenous fuel, not prepping you to actually be eating. And I actually did a whole blog post on this that I can put a link to in the show notes. All of that said, it goes back to my answer before where I really think what you can stick to is what is best. So if eating later consistently is what works better for you, or if eating earlier consistently is what works better for you, I think what fits into your life, that's what I would focus on rather than what is in an ideal scenario in a metabolic word study, the perfect time to eat.

Barry Conrad

I think it leads back to what you were saying before, Melanie, about making habits work for us, you know, make it easier for our lifestyle, because that's going to be the thing that's going to actually sustain and be consistent rather than if this is the ideal window people are saying I should do, that, well, actually, what works best for you day in and day out? That's the thing, really. And for your body. Like for me, for example, I maybe, when I'm on vacation, I'll have breakfast when you're supposed to, quote unquote, have breakfast in the morning, but I don't start eating normally on the daily around till like four or five most days. So yeah, it's just like it's doing what is going to make me win and just stay consistent with my protocol. And so I think that's exactly what you should do as well.

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. And then just to go just to show how different we are. So if I were to eat at four or five, that'd be so early for me. Oh my goodness. I feel like the only way I could eat at four or five is if I like didn't eat that night before. Otherwise, I just wouldn't be hungry.

Barry Conrad

You're like 10 or 11. You eat later, way later.

Melanie Avalon

Are you late? Are you late? Actually this week I'm going to a dinner so I will be eating at a normal time. It's still late but it's not that late. It's like eight o'clock.

Barry Conrad

How do you feel about that? Do you feel excited about eating a bit earlier or not really, or kind of nervous or apprehensive?

Melanie Avalon

I don't like eating earlier. I'm not excited by that aspect of it, but I know that, I know I'll have a fun time and I know once I'm there, I'll love it. And so here's the other thing. Because I'm so intense with my routine of how I eat, I can kind of like signal to my body that it's eating time. Like normally when I start drinking, I'm like, you know, if I have some wine, that's kind of signaling that I'm about to eat. So I can kind of like tweak, well, actually that's not true because when I go out and have drinks, I don't eat. So maybe that, I think once I actually start eating, my body enters the like eating mode. And so it's all good. It's interesting because it's like, it's like your body becomes hungry once you actually start eating. If you're not hungry before, for me, that's my personal experience.

Barry Conrad

You know, what's really interesting is that sometimes when I'm in a longer fast, when I start thinking about food, it's almost like my body starts preparing to like, I just start, you know, like I start salivating. I'm like ready. Like my body knows like, and before starting intermittent fasting, I didn't really feel those cues or that sensation or have that experience. But now when I'm fasting, it's like, okay, it's time to eat. Like it's so fascinating. Do you ever feel that or not really?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, definitely. And that's a key thing about like dopamine, for example, because like people think people think often think dopamine is your happiness chemical and that compound or hormone and that dopamine makes you happy. But dopamine, it makes you happy at the thought of reaching a goal. So it's not actually getting the thing that makes you happy. It's like trying to get the thing that makes you happy. I promise this is going to relate. And the more dopamine is released and it's released just at the anticipation because it becomes a routine and a habit and self-reinforcing. So the point of this is we have habits that we do and once we start doing them and we get ingrained in them, we don't actually even have to do the thing that would release and encourage dopamine. We just have to like anticipate doing it and we get the dopamine hit. So they'll see that people who are, and it happens with food too. So like it's what you basically just said, like if you're accustomed to eating something that you really like or like in a situation that you like, you'll start releasing dopamine before you even do that thing. Yeah. So you can definitely, the body like anticipates and releases these compounds that then make you engage in that habit and like start the systems running, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad

It definitely makes sense. I think the body is just so fascinating. And I don't know if this is relative, but even as soon as you said that about the body sort of anticipates, even with things like acting or performance, like when something's ingrained, it's like an anticipation and you know what's coming. You know what I'm saying? It's like intuitive. You know, it's just like programmed on a cellular level almost. It's so awesome. I love that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And actually, so we had Mark Sisson on the show. Have we, have we talked about Palluva yet? His shoe line? No. Okay. This is going to be all over the place. I promise it relates though. Barry, we got to get you wearing Palluva's. Do you wear like running shoes?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, every day when I go to the gym.

Melanie Avalon

So I highly recommend friends check out Mark's book, Born to Walk. So Mark Sisson, he's, do you know Mark? He's like the, he's one of the, he's the founder of like the Primal Health movement. He, he had a Mark's Daily Apple. Yeah. He had like Primal Kitchen, lots of New York Times bestsellers, Primal Endurance, and I think the Primal Blueprint is probably his most famous one. He has the Keto Reset Diet, but in any case, in Born to Walk, and we'll put a link to that episode in the show notes, but he basically makes the case that we should not be, like we should be walking a lot. We shouldn't be doing this endurance, this intense endurance activity all the time and like marathons and running. It's just not good for you. And shoes are like horrible for our feet, like horrible. They basically allow you to move in a way that is not natural for the body and also sustain impact trauma consistently, but you don't really feel it because of the shoes, but you're still getting all that damage and it's just not good. So he has this line paluba, which is a, like a barefoot shoe. It's like where your like toes are separated in it. And he has a whole line of them. And literally he completely changed my, my, my thoughts about like shoes and running and walking. And oh, the reason I'm talking about this is because we were talking about how would these, there's like four different feel good neurotransmitters that people think of like dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and endorphins. And dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin are all good feeling things to bring good things to your life. So dopamine is about pursuing a goal. Serotonin is about like social hierarchy and feeling safe and social bonds. And then oxytocin is about like the love, like the bonding compound. It's from like hugs and like love and all those things. Endorphins, which also make you feel great, their purpose is to mask pain. So historically, their main purpose is like if an animal's being killed by another animal, they get flooded with endorphins so they don't feel it. So it's not a compound we should be chasing to feel as a good thing because literally its purpose is to make you not feel painful things happening. And that's what people who are doing intense running careers and marathoning and all the things are chasing, they're chasing endorphin highs. So that's why I was thinking about that.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I mean, that sounds amazing with the issue. I'd love to wear that. And also on that, I 100% subscribe to walking. I actually, my form of cardio in the gym or outdoors is walking. I do hill sprints or walking. I just think it's such an underrated way to burn fat and not just that it compounds things. You can do that at a very pretty easy pace. Burn fat effectively and do something like listen to a podcast or make calls. It's so good. And also just clear your mind so that that's one thing. Another thing is I'm actually in bare feet right now, Melanie, and I always wear shoes, but I was recently traveling a bit, seeing my family and in New Zealand. And I've never been more barefoot during those few weeks than probably in years and coming back, it's just more freeing. You feel grounded to the earth. You can move better. And I'm actually I promise you, I'm barefoot right now. So there you go. It's very fitting that you're talking about it.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. Yeah, it's literally, he completely changed my perspective on it. I'm like, I need to be barefoot, like all the time or wearing these palubas. And so yeah, I love that you had that experience giving your feet the more natural experience of the world. So listeners, you can get 10% off paluba. If you go to paluba.com slash iapodcast, that's p-e-l-u-v-a.com slash iapodcast and use the coupon code iapodcast. So and they have one of the shoes that I like, you can actually, I don't really like, I don't normally wear like tennis shoes and stuff anyways. So I need to start wearing the normal ones outside. But for wearing around the apartment, they do have one that kind of you can not use the back of it. So you can use it kind of like a slip on. And so that's the one I'm really loving. That's the Zen active slip on. So I have the women's Zen active slip on but they have so many different ones. Yeah, it's literally game changer. Okay, oh, I just thought of something really random. But I should have said in the beginning when we were talking about what we're like, what's new in our life. Guess who I'm interviewing. Speaking of interviews tomorrow. Actually, I don't know how you would guess but give me a clue. It's a character from like one of the most well known TV series in the superhero world. What?

Barry Conrad

Who is it? Oh, you know, Melanie, I love superheroes. Don't play with me. Hold on. Is it okay? Gender? Give me the gender.

Melanie Avalon

You want to play the yes or no game?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Okay, I'm ready. Are you under the age of 50?

Melanie Avalon

The person? Yeah. No.

Barry Conrad

Are you in a Marvel franchise?

Melanie Avalon

Not Marvel. I don't know anything about superheroes.

Barry Conrad

Okay, have you been in a release of this franchise in the last two years?

Melanie Avalon

The character or the actor? The actor. No.

Barry Conrad

I don't know, tell me, because now I'm just going to, but we need to play 20 Christians, this is fun, but tell me who it is because I'm dying to know.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like Barry and I could play 20 questions for like five hours, so we can just like play. It's the original Robin from Batman and Robin.

Barry Conrad

You mean, oh, that's amazing. Are you serious? How did you score? That's amazing. That's incredible. How'd you score that? That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

I was on the Derek Duvall show and that host Derek, he's like so kind and so nice. So he was interviewing me, um, I can put a link to that in the show notes. He connected me to Burt. He said Burt was like one of his favorite episodes he's ever done, but so Burt has, the reason he's going on like health related podcast is he has a, he has a gentle giants pet food line that is like to help support pet longevity and stuff. He's like all in now. He's all into dogs. They have, they have like he and his wife have, I don't know, 40 or 50 dogs at their house.

Barry Conrad

What?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and they make this pet food line.

Barry Conrad

If it's a big house.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I was watching videos. They put the food in like, like horse trough type things. Like feed the dogs. I am going to ask him a lot of questions about his dog, pet food line, but what would you ask him about his career, his acting career?

Barry Conrad

I would definitely ask him what was the most foundational thing you learned from being part of that franchise like with Batman and how has that shaped the rest of his like the trajectory of his career because that was like a huge, huge moment.

Melanie Avalon

And you were in, you were in Spider-Man something, right?

Barry Conrad

I was in power range. It's very different. It's very different.

Melanie Avalon

And here's the thing, I knew as Power Rangers, I was seeing Power Rangers in my head.

Barry Conrad

But Melanie, get this. Honestly, I always joke, but I'm not really joking. I would love to be. I'm obsessed with superheroes, so this is the perfect guest. I can't believe you're interviewing him. It's awesome. I'd love to be in a Marvel franchise.

Melanie Avalon

I'll let you know how it goes. Also, yes, Barry, you would be a perfect superhero. Which one would you be if you could be one?

Barry Conrad

like a current one, or you're asking me what kind of power I want.

Melanie Avalon

if you could be like, you know, like a new version of one of the ones.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. Okay. One of the ones, this is how you know, Melanie is not really a discoverer is Wolverine. Definitely. Hands down. My favorite.

Melanie Avalon

That's not a comic book though, is it?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, X-Men. X-Men.

Melanie Avalon

X-Men with a comic book? Wow. No idea. I had no idea.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I feel like if you were a superhero, you'd be like a biohacking, a biohacking superhero, like, take my red sauna. Like, I don't know, I could just see like in a dress looking really glamorous, looking really good, and then like, just like not breaking a sweat and just doing your thing.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'd be down. Is there a blonde, superhero, female? Many. I can't think of any.

Barry Conrad

We're going way off here. Sorry listeners, if this is not interesting, but we're having a good time.

Melanie Avalon

I'm a fasting superhero.

Barry Conrad

So what is the power? So you could fast real good, you know, 19 hours a day, 20 hours a day.

Melanie Avalon

I don't ever have to take the time to eat, so I have more time. Yeah, but I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. It's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. So, OK, before we go on to our next thing, we realize that last week, this is my bat. I only partly answered one of the listeners questions. So we had answered a question from Julian about MCT oil and syrup peptase. I answered the part about at the end about what MCT oil and coffee breaker fast and we kind of like ran with that, but we didn't answer the first part. So would you like to reread the first part?

Barry Conrad

So Julian on Facebook said, I just recently started implementing black coffee with MCT oil in the morning during a fasted state. I usually also take seropeptase during that time as well. Would it be fine to take both MCT oil and seropeptase simultaneously? I wanted to make sure the MCT oil didn't interfere with the seropeptase since it's helped my sinuses drastically. Also, if I'm having black coffee with MCT oil, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so totally forgot to answer this one. And so Julian is referring to my Avalon X serapeptase, which this actually ties into what we were talking about with autophagy. So serapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. And in the fasted state, well, its purpose in the silkworm is to break down the cocoon of the silkworm. So it breaks down nonliving tissue without hurting living tissue. So when we take it in the fasted state, kind of like how autophagy is that process in the body where we break down problematic proteins and things like that, that's what serapeptase does. And a lot of inflammation and health issues we have come from our body reacting to like proteins in our body. So like Julian says, it clears sinuses, I mean, dramatically. It's a game changer for that for me personally as well. And I hear that from so many people. And it can help with inflammation, it can break down amyloid plaque in the brain, help reduce cholesterol, all the things. I love it. I take it every single day of my life. And so you can't take it, well, you can take it with other food and proteins. But if you do, it'll just break down your food instead of going into the bloodstream and working its magic. So that's why it needs to be taken on an empty stomach. However, if you were to take it with MCT oil, MCT oil is just a pure fat. So serapeptase is not going to break down anything in that. So you could take MCT oil and serapeptase together is the answer to that. And if friends would like to get some serapeptase, they can go to avlonx.us and use the coupon code IF Podcast to get 10% off site wide there, including that serapeptase. It's kind of like a superhero serapeptase. It's like a superhero supplement, I think.

Barry Conrad

I've actually never tried syrup up this yet, so I feel like it's time for me to well and truly dive in and see what all the fuss is about, especially your supplement.

Melanie Avalon

Oh wait, did you get my bottle that I sent you?

Barry Conrad

I only got the magnesium. I didn't get the Sure-Five test.

Melanie Avalon

I didn't see new Sarah Papjes.

Barry Conrad

No. Oh. Not that I expect you to at all, but yeah, I haven't tried it yet.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, let me see, hopefully I can get it into Australia. It's like, I know I got the magnesium in. They do not make it easy. Yeah, they do. I will have to send you some. That's crazy. I really thought I had sent it to you.

Barry Conrad

That's all good. Yeah, but I definitely want to try it because I know that you talked about it so you rave on about it and you really believe in it. So I think it's definitely worth trying.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it is one of my favorite things like ever, ever, ever.

Barry Conrad

And do you take show of her days when to like to break your like during the when you break your first or when do you take it?

Melanie Avalon

So you would want to take it earlier in the fast and then not eat right after because if you ate right after, it would just break down the food. So you want to wait at least like an hour after to eat, but I take it in the morning and I don't eat until the evening, but I just notice such a difference. It just clears my sinuses. My brain helps with brain fog. It's amazing.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to write that down now because actually, I have allergies, like dust allergies, and when I was traveling recently, it's just so dusty, and I found it really hard, so I wonder if that would help mitigate some of the sinus issues as well. So that's definitely, I'm going to write this down right now.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, it would be amazing for that like game changer. It's so effective

Barry Conrad

Okay, great, awesome.

Melanie Avalon

All right, Barry, would you like to read our question from Camilla? And by the way, I picked this one because she's from Australia. That's not the only reason, but that's a reason.

Barry Conrad

So Camilla says, hi. First of all, I absolutely love your podcast. I'm 30 years old, Chilean woman working full time in Australia. And listening to you has saved my life from the boredom of cleaning rooms for eight hours a day and encourages me to keep fasting. I tried so many times fasting before, but never understood the importance of clean fasting. That changed everything. So my very big question is, back in time, I practiced about three years ago a lifestyle called hygienism. The diet includes fruit juiced fasting, which is two juices in the morning, 10 and 2 a.m. And then fruit for lunch, about one kilo of fruit, where I can mix acid with semi-acid and semi-acid with sweet fruit. A few fruits for snack and for dinner. Fruit for a big plate of salad with cooked veggies is optional. Also, I can choose one protein, one cereal, or one starchy vegetable. I followed this diet for about two years and was feeling fantastic. It was very similar to the feeling of being in the fasted state. In the first two weeks with just fruit and salad two days a week, I lost about 10 pounds. By the way, I was dancing and using my bike a lot. The problem with that diet is that my body got used to eating every two hours, otherwise I would have been shaking and so hungry. Also, my stomach got bigger because I had to eat lots of fruit to get satiated, but I had it all covered. I didn't crave junk food anymore and my cravings for sweets was gone as the fruit was all that I needed. The problem started when I left my comfort zone and during my travel, where I had not that quantity of fruit available and for social or emotional reasons. So I quit that lifestyle and started overeating. My stomach got really elastic and big with the fruit. And I binge ate. In one year, I put 20 pounds on in my body and I felt awful. I've been trying so many diets and fasting, et cetera, but I didn't understand that intermittent fasting was a lifestyle too. So far, I've been practicing clean, intermittent fasting for about two weeks. I feel much better, more energy, no cravings of junk food during fasting time. My mind is clearer and more calm, but I haven't lost weight because I'm still overeating and eating junk food became a disgusting habit. My problem is that when I have dinner, salad and cooked veggies, I still crave sweets and mess it all up with cookies, brown bread and jam, granola, whatever it looks that it can satisfy my brain. Sadly, I have housemates that love junk food too. So here's my question. What are your thoughts about doing intermittent fasting and having a fruit diet? I ask because I feel when I do strict food diet, I stick to it more easily than having a whole food meal. I don't think I would do just fruit as before because I used to have fruit for dinner at least three days a week, but I wonder what happens with the insulin and sugar levels if I do it for about a week or two.

Barry Conrad

My goal is weight loss. And since I started fasting, I also go back to daily yoga practices, riding my bike for about 30 minutes a day. Oh, and also today I began with MCT oil to break my fast. And I wonder, would I get the same great benefits if I drank the oil, if I do exercise, or would it be better if I exercise and then break the fast with the oil? Thanks so much in advance. And I apologize if the English isn't the best. You're so great. I can't be grateful enough for having met you in the virtual world. Send you lots of love.

Melanie Avalon

Camilla. All right, Camilla, quite a journey and so many questions there. I'm curious, Barry, have you ever done a stint where you did like fruit fasting or something like that, like only eight fruit?

Barry Conrad

for about a day, but because I love meat so much, it's like, this is not going to work for me. It's not really, what about you? It's just not, for me, it's not satiating or satisfying. And it just actually, if anything, makes me crave more sugars. So, no, not really, just a day.

Melanie Avalon

The longest I did was in college. That's when I, I think I've told you before I did my, my apple fast. Where I was going to eat apples for three days. And I went like 11 days eating just apples. And it is very true. I felt, I like, I felt high. Like I felt like Camilla said, like the fasting feeling, I felt very light. I, it was an experience for sure. I have so many thoughts about this. So one, I think a lot of people, especially if they are eating an unhealthy diet and then they switched to some sort of cleanse, like just green juices or just fruit, that, that is sustainable in the beginning for a little bit. And they probably feel really great. And if they have the fat to burn, you know, shedding the toxins, getting all of this hydration and nutrients from the fruit, and then the body is probably doing more topology and so it can feel really great, but here's the thing. For most people, I mean, I know they're apparently fruititarians out there that, you know, say they've done it for life. There's also a lot of fruititarians out there that stop doing it because it works really well in the beginning. And then they start falling apart. I don't think most people can get the protein they need, the nutrients they need on a fruit only diet forever. There might be the rare people who can, like they've got the perfect microbiome and the perfect constitution and it works for them. But for most people, I don't think it's going to work. And I think what happens is people will try it and experience these amazing health benefits. And so they think, they think it's the thing and that it should be, that they should do it longer and that when it stops working, that it's not because it's not sustainable, it's because, you know, of other problems, but maybe it's because it's not sustainable and you need more nutrients and protein. And you can only do that for so long. So, yeah, so I have a lot of thoughts here. Basically, I think it could be done as a short-term thing. Like I said, if you want to do it as a very short-term thing, like maybe a few days, if you can make it that way. And I guess combined with intermittent fasting while doing that, but it's just, it's not a long-term thing. I would not look to this as a long-term lifestyle. And I definitely wouldn't do long-term intermittent fasting with only fruit. I just think that is a recipe for a disaster. And especially if you're dealing with binging and craving and that effect, a lot of that could be due to not getting the nutrients you need, like the protein that you need. I would have a reframe and if you're doing fasting, focus on fasting, like let fasting be the cleansing process and then have your eating window be the nourishment and make sure that you get all the protein you need in that window so that you're not craving and binging.

Melanie Avalon

And something else I think people might not account for sometimes is just how much an effect that you can like undo what you've done if you get into a binging cycle, because I think people, if they're not doing fasting from a healthy perspective where they're getting enough protein, they're getting enough nutrition and instead they're not getting enough. And then they get into this like binge, you know, this binge cycle where they're binging and then they try to make up with it, make up for it with fasting, but then they're not eating enough. So then they binge again. Like that's not, you can create a lot of harm by doing that and it's not sustainable, it's not healthy. So I would focus on fasting and eating a lot in your eating windows. So you don't fall into that. And there's this thing called the protein leverage hypothesis. And it's basically that we will be hungry and we will keep eating until we fulfill our protein requirement needs. So basically I would not suggest as a long-term thing, doing fasting and puritarianism together, I would only do it as like a short thing. Yeah. And I can talk about the MCT oil and the exercise, but what are your thoughts, Barry?

Barry Conrad

Yes. This is a big question and also so many thoughts, but first of all, Camilla, thanks for sharing that. It's a big story. Thanks for the support for the podcast as well. The fact that fasting has brought you clarity and energy after that sort of journey is a huge win, but I would definitely agree with Melanie in saying that combining IF with just fruit solely, it's not a great strategy because you're just not getting the nutrients that you need, you know, and I mean, I would suggest balancing that with some greens, some seeds. If you don't like meat, try protein from tofu, eggs, fish maybe, but I don't think you can't really sustain a long life, in my opinion, on just fruit. And also one thing to keep in mind is that if you're eating mainly fruit as well, you're going to spike your insulin so much, which potentially could make weight loss slower potentially. If you're just having fruit over the long term because your body does adapt. Yeah, great. The yoga, the cycling is great. That's awesome. But I'm 100% on the protein train here. Like protein is so important because skeletal muscle is such a huge important factor in terms of like having longevity. You can't just I don't want to see you withering away. So make sure you get your protein in. That's what I would say.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, we're definitely on the same page. And I think a lot of times people, especially doing like veganism or especially like fruititarianism, like if they're getting cravings and bingy and everything, it can be hard to see that it's because you're just not getting enough nourishment, you know, like you can think it's because oh, like I'm just weak or I crave these junk foods, but there's a lot of magic if you get in enough protein in your diet.

Barry Conrad

100%. One thing that I would say is when I'm having particularly, at the moment, I'm experimenting more with smoked salmon for my protein sauce just to change it up. But generally, I have with smoked salmon that is around for 200 grams of smoked salmon that has 40 grams of protein for that. In one sitting, I can get that. With ground beef, I have about 42 grams for the same amount. When I have chicken breast and ground beef, I get full. I can eat a lot of meat for sure, but I definitely feel satiated. The only thing that I can put that down to is the satiation that comes from hitting the protein that you need. I don't get that when I'm just snacking or having lots of carbs solely. I'll just keep eating and keep eating and keep eating because your body hasn't got what it needs. Please, please look at the protein. That would take you more.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I agree so much. And then for her question about the MCT oil, which is I didn't realize that we were answering two questions about this, but so she said she uses it to break her fast and she wants to know, should she basically take it, like have it before exercising? Okay, wait. If after drinking the oil, so like have MCT oil and then exercise or exercise and then have the oil. So I would want to know like why you're having the oil. Like is it just for calories? Like what is it for your metabolism? Like what is the purpose of having it? I would not have it before exercise because there's, I think there's a lot of benefits to fasted exercise. And if you are taking a lot of MCT oil before exercise, you're just going to be burning the MCT oil rather than, especially if like weight loss is a goal of yours, which she said it is, you want to be tapping into your body fat, not just running off of the oil you just had. So if weight loss is a goal, I would definitely, I would have it later. Not, I would have it in your eating window, not before exercising. What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad

I would agree with that. One thing to keep in mind is that there's a train of thought out there where people feel afraid to exercise without something in their system, whether that's a banana, whether it's fat, or whether it's something. So I'm wondering, because she hasn't been fasting for a long, long time, that that might be a possibility, because you actually don't need that chameleon. Because remember, in the fasted set, there's plenty of glycogen for you to use up there. There's energy there, and there's plenty of fat that we're carrying. You don't need to take anything else to exercise. And I exercise as a six-foot-tall, 80kg male fasted. I'm not withered. I've got lots of muscle, and I don't eat anything. I have black coffee that's about it. So I would definitely say, you don't need the MCTL, and I wonder if that's something you've been told that you just need. Let me just have this little something to help me. You don't need it. Your body's got everything that it needs inside.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so glad you brought that up. It's so true. It is like a fear. It's like, I guess people are scared of that they're gonna run out of energy. Like I'm not, you know, but it's like once you start doing it, you realize that you can, you know, tap into your body fat stores and we carry so much energy on our body, just waiting to be tapped into. And especially if you have something like coffee or tea, you know, to have that caffeine and polyphenols and such help you, you know, tap into those body fat stores. Yeah, you can do it.

Barry Conrad

You can do it, Camilla.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome!

Barry Conrad

And we'd love to hear from you if you changed anything after hearing this. We'd love to hear back from you.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, please let us know! Okay, so we're like playing around with the format of the show and we always feature a restaurant on the show and we've decided we're going to try out having it at the end because then it's like we're breaking our fast after talking about all the fasting stuff and like we just talked about we are all about food on this show. So Barry, the restaurant I picked for us today is actually my favorite restaurant in Atlanta. Which is why I picked it.

Barry Conrad

Hold on for one second. You know what? I was actually thinking, the last episode listeners, I was actually thinking, I said to Melanie, if we went on like a food tour, she'll only come for a day. And then in my head, I was thinking, but if it was Atlanta, she'd come. So hello, now you've chosen Atlanta restaurant. So perfect.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, if it was Atlanta?

Barry Conrad

then you'd definitely be there.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, yes. So guess who's got to come to Atlanta?

Barry Conrad

Yours truly. Yep.

Melanie Avalon

for more than a day, for more than a day. So why are the rules different for me? Oh, the rules aren't different, but there's, you make your own rules. So, but my rules are one day, which we didn't talk about this on the show yet, because it's going to be way in the past when it happened by the time this airs. But, um, I went for one day to Vegas for the biohack yourself premiere, which actually was really, really incredible. Um, and I highly recommend people check it out. It's a documentary on Amazon prime and it has all the people in it. Like all the biohacking people are, are in it. And I, I was so honored. They actually invited me to host on the right carpet. So I got to interview a lot of really cool people. I got to meet people in person. I never met like Ben Azati. I was excited. I got to meet Aggie who I found on the show. Got to interview Del Big Tree, who he's actually a really big deal. He, he leads the make America healthy again movement. And he works with RFK. Yeah, it was really cool. It was fun.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. Congrats, Mel. Can I see it? Is it when does it come out on Amazon Prime?

Melanie Avalon

it's out now. We'll put a link to it in the show notes and no, you won't, you won't see me because I was just at the like the premiere thing and this is the actual documentary. I got to see, I literally, I think there's so many friends there, like so many people I've had on the show. The people I listed before were people I actually interviewed, but I got to meet in real life. Well, I know Dave Asprey, so I got to see him. I got to meet the founder of Viva Ray's who I've had on my show. I got to meet, I got to, I saw Sean Wells, literally just so many people. I, Ian Clark, who I just interviewed the other day, you would have loved it, Barry. We should go to something like that sometime. I'd love that. It'd be awesome. So in any case, so the restaurant I picked, like I said, it's neck and neck because I have two favorite restaurants in Atlanta, but this is my all time favorite and it's called Atlas. It's at the St Regis and something really cool about it. So it has a Michelin star. I knew it would because the Michelin guy just came for the first time two years ago to Atlanta, which was really exciting. And I was like, I know Atlas is going to get one and it did. And what's really cool about it is the restaurant itself, there's all this art and they actually have to change the art every, I don't know how many days, like how many months or so. They have to continually change it. And the reason they have to change it is because they have so much art in that room worth so much money that it would, they would be a museum if they didn't change it out. Isn't that cool?

Barry Conrad

That's so cool.

Melanie Avalon

I think it's probably complicated to be a museum, so the art changes. But they have really cool museum type stuff, obviously. I went there for my birthday three years ago, maybe. So the menu is, I guess we can just pick from the tavern menu because they have a tasting menu but we can't actually see what that is because it changes. So we'll just have to go off of there.

Barry Conrad

This looks good.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so they do have a chef's tasting menu, but it says full table participation required. That's like so scary.

Barry Conrad

Well, have you met me? I'm pretty much a full table when it comes to food. I'll eat for like five people.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so we'll go. I'll be like, we're getting the chef's tasting menu. The full table is berry. And then I'll sit over there.

Barry Conrad

That's your buddy.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, actually, you know who I went to? I went twice. I went with Jean Valacara, who is the he has biohackers magazine and I had him on my show as well. But I love biohackers magazine. He's incredible. He's called his handle is cyber gains on Instagram. Yeah, he does calisthenics. He's like, so he's so impressive, like, with what he does. But he came to Atlanta and we went into Atlas once he had to come in town for like some other like conference things. So we went there. Okay, so looking at the menu, what would you get to share?

Barry Conrad

This all looks incredible, actually. I would say I'm gravitating towards large seafood platter for sure. I'd probably eat most of it, but we could definitely share that.

Melanie Avalon

features caviar, king crab, oysters, shrimp, crudo, and main lobster. I feel like we have to do that because the other things are oysters or small seafood platters. So we'll just get the large one. And I would eat, I would eat everything on that. Wait, what is crudo? I should know this.

Barry Conrad

So crudo, it's sort of the way, like when you have kingfish crudo or not, it's just the way it's cured. So I'm guessing it's going to be like kingfish or some sort of fish, but cured in that.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, it means raw.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I would definitely actually when I went I think I had I actually this is one of the locations where I Had this is do you know what this was berry? This was where I learned the term savory dessert because I Had salmon as the appetizer. This is when I went with jean and then for dessert I asked if I could have salmon and they were so accommodating and then I said I was like do people do this or like It's just like a weird and then the server said to me. Yeah, sometimes people have savory desserts And I was like, oh my goodness. I am adopting that term

Barry Conrad

That tracks, that makes sense and that's it's good that it's a full circle moment back to your favorite restaurant. That's good.

Melanie Avalon

So they also have an incredible wine list, but in any case, okay, so to share and then the cheese cart, would you be having some from the cheese cart, Barry?

Barry Conrad

Of course, like that was my second thing. We definitely need to have that select, like we need to get like a selection. Cause that's something we can pick at. I love cheese and crackers. I love it so much. So we have to do that.

Melanie Avalon

So I have good and bad news. Okay, what? What's the good news first? Good news is I love cheese. Like in heaven, I probably just, it's probably like made of cheese. The bad news is cheese for me, it's like the thing, I just can't have it. I like it too much. And cheese has queso-morphenes in it, which are, it's basically like morphine, but in food form. And the reason it has that is because I'm not trying to scare people away from cheese, but the reason it has that is to, do you know, do you know the reason why it has that? You tell me. It's to help the child. So milk has queso-morphenes to help the child bond to the mother.

Barry Conrad

Oh, well.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, isn't that crazy? So basically like mother's milk has these compounds that make the baby like be addicted to the mom.

Barry Conrad

That's kinda crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and depending on your constitution, some people have more like receptors for that and react to that differently. So for me, like it, if I have one bite of cheese, it feels like a drug like I, so I just have to abstain because I could just like eat cheese forever.

Barry Conrad

What about like a morsel, like one, one little bite and that's it.

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. You have one bite and it's like, then you're just stuck wanting more. Like, I'd rather just not have it.

Barry Conrad

We'll all have the cheese. We can get it.

Melanie Avalon

I love it so much that I would love you to have it and you can like give me tasting notes and yeah. So we will get the cheese cart.

Barry Conrad

Now, do you like do you like heavier? Is that something that you like?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, okay. I am so excited to talk about this. So I had not had caviar until semi recently. And what's funny is I didn't realize it was caviar until after I ate it. I was at another birthday dinner at one of my, another restaurant I love here, which is called Kevin Rathbun's Steakhouse. And something came with caviar. And then I ate it. And I was like, this is so good. And I was like, Oh, this is caviar. Like after I ate it.

Barry Conrad

That's funny. That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon

It did not taste like what I thought it would taste like. What did you think it would taste like? I don't know, but it basically just tasted like salt.

Barry Conrad

Well, did you have it on a blini or did you have it on like, what did you have it with?

Melanie Avalon

It was a condiment, like it came with the tartare, I think, but it was like squishy and like little, little bit like seafood, but like salty. I loved it. And like fatty. Do you like caviar?

Barry Conrad

I love it. And so I'm throwing the ball to you, which, cause I'm having most of the cheese, which caveat would you choose?

Melanie Avalon

Let's get the la grande caviar selection, then we get everything. Wait, how does that compare to the tasting flight?

Barry Conrad

No, that's not enough.

Melanie Avalon

What's the difference between, it's the same thing though, with condiments. With condiments, is that the difference?

Barry Conrad

And have you tried Blinnies before? Have you tried that?

Melanie Avalon

No. What is that?

Barry Conrad

So I actually make these from scratch when I'm having caviar or even with smoked salmon. It's basically like, think of like a miniature, like a miniature pancake, like really small.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, okay. Yeah, I do. So so I would actually I personally would order just the tasting flight, but I feel like for the table me and you we would we want to get the grand caviar selection so that you can have the condiments and the Bellini that you make at home. Wait, I have a quick question about caviar. Do you buy caviar like at the grocery store? Because once I had it, then I when I would go to Whole Foods, I was like, oh, I should like buy some caviar. And I was like, Oh, this is this is confusing. There's like so many options. And the price goes from like expensive to like crazy expensive. I like couldn't bring myself to buy it.

Barry Conrad

I have an occasion for caviar but at the store but i would definitely go for if you're gonna do it like you know do for an occasion. But you can definitely buy it gets it gets pricey though.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, maybe I should, oh my goodness, maybe I should have a caviar line in the future. Maybe that'll be my first food. Yum. If you could have, last quick question, if you could have a berry Conrad food line, what would be your first food?

Barry Conrad

Do you know what not just food i would say you know because i love spicy i'd maybe do something like a hot sauce or a. So like a hot seasoning first before like a food because that's something that i could make sense because it's something you can put lots of different things that's probably something i would do.

Melanie Avalon

I'm making a note of that, that you like hot sauce stuff.

Barry Conrad

I do. I love it. I love Spicy.

Melanie Avalon

We should do a product collab, like a food collab. A wine, maybe? Yeah. Okay, what would you get to start? Oh, I know what I would get. This is like, oh, whoa, there's two things I want. Oh wait, there's three. Oh crap, actually I want everything. What do you want?

Barry Conrad

Kompachikrudur and the Wagyu Tatar.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I want the wagyu tartar, the crudo, and the hen's egg. I really want the hen's egg. Oh wait, is it not a hen's egg? Is it actually crawfish?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I think it's just called hens egg, but I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I take that back I want the same thing as you

Barry Conrad

Okay, in that case, let's get the garden solid like to kind of pad things out just to be there, you know, there's some, you know, greens there to look good.

Melanie Avalon

and take pictures for Instagram.

Barry Conrad

For the photo, exactly. You gotta bounce it out.

Melanie Avalon

And I'll have the crude out and the wagyu as well as will you.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, what would you have for your, okay, not the entree, I'm going to say your main event. That's the main dish.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Are we skipping? Is pasta like, I'm confused. There's like a pasta section. Is that like a, is that a course? I'm skipping that course. Do you want one of those?

Barry Conrad

I feel like that's a main thing too. I feel like I put pasta and the entrepreneur sections into one thing. Like they're all like main things.

Melanie Avalon

So here's what I love, friends. You can get, for your main thing, we always have the language translation issue here, but for the main thing, you can get a pasta, an entree, or an entree for two. So basically, I'm always wanting to get two entrees, so I can just get the entree for two for one, for me. This is like incredible, but you can have some too if you want.

Barry Conrad

So what would you have?

Melanie Avalon

I think I would get the Dover Soul entree for two, but how big is that fish that is for two?

Barry Conrad

They'd be massive.

Melanie Avalon

That's what I want. It's probably like a it's like probably a whole fish. Do you like fish when it's in its whole fish form? I love it

Barry Conrad

I do. I love it. Some people get grossed out by seeing the eyes and seeing the whole thing. I love it.

Melanie Avalon

I love it when it even has like the brain in it still.

Barry Conrad

What? I was expecting that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, because I remember the first time I had it like that, the guy I was I was with was like daring me to eat the brain. I was like, Oh, no, I like I want to eat the brain. This is not hard for me to do. Although it actually didn't taste as good as I thought it would. I thought it was gonna taste like good, like bone marrow. And it actually tasted like not that good. And I was like, Oh, actually, nevermind. But I wasn't scared is the point.

Barry Conrad

Have you fished before like yourself? Like, have you gone fishing and caught something and ate it?

Melanie Avalon

I have. Are you impressed? Are you surprised? Growing up, we lived on a pond. We would fish. We never ate that fish, but we would fish. And then in Florida, we would always go on these fishing things where you hire a person who takes you fishing, and then you would cook the fish later. But oh, actually, so I'm halfway answering this. At that time, I was not eating fish, so I didn't actually eat the fish, but we did cook it.

Barry Conrad

Wow.

Melanie Avalon

How about you?

Barry Conrad

Oh yeah we went fishing a lot when i was a kid so i do love the whole thing and it takes better when you catch it something about that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Although now I don't think I could actually eat any of the fish that I catch because of the mercury issue. Unless I catch salmon. And sole I believe is low. That's why I was picking it.

Barry Conrad

I might have to have like a bite of the soul, just like an immortal to try it.

Melanie Avalon

And what would you get for your entree?

Barry Conrad

I would get two things. I would get the West Home Wagyu and I'd also get the Hunter's Chicken.

Melanie Avalon

That's perfect because I also wanted those. So can I have a bite? Of course. How are you cooking your Wagyu?

Barry Conrad

So it's got to be medium rare, but more on the rare side.

Melanie Avalon

I can tolerate that.

Barry Conrad

I'm not going to do blue, Melanie, I'm not going to have just

Melanie Avalon

You're not doing blue? No blue?

Barry Conrad

No.

Melanie Avalon

someday. When we have our meal together, will you eat blue? Like if I order it blue, will you like try it?

Barry Conrad

Oh yeah I'm not like I've I'm not scared of having it's just like I enjoy like a little bit more like heat on the surface but I definitely love like rare for sure I definitely do it to the blue.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect, okay. And then for dessert, what would you get?

Barry Conrad

Oh man, this is hard. Okay. The FM Rocha, which is vanilla hazelnut chocolate, and I would also get the Baba R. Rom, which is an aged spirit selection. That sounds pretty appetizing to me. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

I would get a repeat of whichever appetizer I liked the most out of the caviar, crab, oyster, shrimp, crudo, and lobster. For dessert, actually, let me take that back. I probably would go like the shrimp, lobster, or crab route.

Barry Conrad

One day, hopefully I'll get to see you like have like one bite of like a cake or something with me.

Melanie Avalon

That is your mission in life, and I respect that.

Barry Conrad

I just want to see your reaction to it just when you have it.

Melanie Avalon

It's not, yeah. Would you get any of their seasonal or signature cocktails? The beverage menu.

Barry Conrad

You know what? The Southern Passion looks pretty good. I'll try that.

Melanie Avalon

Although it's perfect because we're in the south.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, you know.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, on theme I would get so I actually am friends with the Psalm here. His name is Maxwell. Shout out to Maxwell. And he knows my tastes and how intense I am and that I only drink organic low alcohol, like fruity wines. So from Europe. So and again, Atlas has an incredible wine list, like the book is just overwhelming. It's like, it's one of those like books, you know, like pages and pages and pages. So I would have him pick something.

Barry Conrad

Also, I have to maybe zoom out for one more second. I'll have that as like the first, I'll have that with my starter. And then with the mains, I'll have my, I'll have the golden margarita.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. You got to feature the the berry margarita moment

Barry Conrad

Yeah, because that looks good. Lime, egg white, that's to own. That's that's that looks really good.

Melanie Avalon

And we could take beforehand a shot of what we talked about last time, Z-biotics.

Barry Conrad

Exactly. We'll take the shot and then enjoy the night.

Melanie Avalon

the probiotic genetically engineered to help you break down the toxic byproducts of alcohol in your stomach. I highly recommend it and it is part of my protocol every single time I go out. So for that, listeners can go to melaniavalon.com slash zbiotics, z-b-i-o-t-i-c-s and use the coupon code melaniavalon to get 10% off. Awesome. Well, I feel good. So friends, takeaway is that with fasting, you can have your cake and eat it too, unless you just look at it like me. But the point is you can indulge in all the things that make you feel good and happy in your eating window and still get all the benefits of fasting. So we love it.

Barry Conrad

We love it. And you know what, I was actually just thinking as we were doing this week's restaurant is, I hope that when we do the restaurant at the end, that if it works with your window, your eating window listeners, that you can start snacking away and enjoying it. Like while we talk about food, that'd be really fun. That'd be fun for me to listen to and eat.

Melanie Avalon

Oh yeah, or go look at the menu and see what you would order.

Barry Conrad

Or both, and or. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Love it. Love it. All right. Well, this was so, so fun. Friends, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at iapodcast.com or you can go to iapodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is berry underscore Conrad. And our together one is I have podcast. And yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

Thanks for tuning in everyone and we'll catch you next week.

Melanie Avalon

Yep, this was so fun. I will talk to you next week. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Feb 17

Episode 409 – Special Guest Kara Collier, Continuous Glucose Monitors Q&A, Ideal Blood Sugar Levels, Berberine & Apple Cider Vinegar Timing, Reducing Blood Glucose, Sleep, Stress, Diet & Exercise, Adding Fat Vs. Protein, Blood Sugar & Heart Health, and More!

Welcome to Episode 409 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SPECIAL GUEST

Kara Collier is the co-founder and VP of Clinical Operations at Nutrisense, one of America’s fastest-growing wellness-tech startups. She is a Forbes 30 under 30 recipient, frequent podcast guest & conference speaker. Kara has made it her mission to help others reach optimal health using modern technology & expert coaching. Kara is a leading authority on continuous glucose monitoring (CGM) technology, particularly in non-diabetics, for health optimization, disease prevention, and reversing metabolic dysfunction. Kara is a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist (RDN), Licensed Dietitian/Nutritionist (LDN), and Certified Nutrition Support Clinician (CNSC).

Website | Nutrisense IG | Kara Collier IG

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

NUTRISENSE CONTINUOUS GLUCOSE MONITOR

Get $50 off with code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm.

ONESKIN

Founded by a team of all female scientists, OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company, with products shown to reduce your skin's biological age! OneSkin addresses skin health at the molecular level, targeting the root causes of aging so skin behaves, feels, and appears younger. It’s time to get started with your new face, eye, and body routine at a discounted rate today! Get 15% off OneSkin with the code IFPODCAST at https://www.oneskin.co.

MD LOGIC

Get 10% off MD Logic's Health Marine Collagen with code ifpodcast at ifpodcast.com/collagen.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 409 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 409 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I am here today with a very special guest. It's somebody who's been on the show before, and it's for a topic that we talk about all the time and which has a radical effect on people's health and wellness and fasting and all the things. And so that topic is continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. And friends, like I was saying, you're probably familiar because I talk about them all the time, but continuous glucose monitors, which we will talk about, actually give you a picture of your blood sugar levels on a sort of like a 24-7 basis for quite a few days when you do a session of one. And it is so eye-opening because it actually gives you an in-real-time picture of how your food is affecting you, how your fasting is affecting you, all the things. It can be a game changer, especially if you're trying to just figure out where you're at with your health or if you're trying to break through a weight loss plateau or just really optimize everything you're doing when it comes to food and diet and lifestyle. So I am here with Kara Collier. She is a fabulous human being and the co-founder of Nutrasense, which is a platform which makes CGMs accessible to everyday people. And by everyday people, I mean you don't need a doctor's prescription in order to get one. And then Nutrasense also comes with an app which helps you actually analyze and understand the data and it is just so empowering, so helpful. And so Kara, thank you so much for being here.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to chat.

Melanie Avalon

So, I was telling you before, I have quite a few listener questions for you, but before diving into those, I actually have a personal question because I think last time we came on the show was a while ago and I feel like within that, well, it wasn't that long ago, but in any case, in that time period, I feel AI really like took off, like chat GBT, because I feel like there was like a pre-AI time, I mean, AI's been around for a while, but like it like rapidly escalated. And so I was just thinking before we started recording with Nutrisense and everything you're doing with CGMs, like the future of it and what you're doing now, has that had a big effect on the company and the future and everything that you want to do with CGMs?

Kara Collier

Yeah, that's a great question. So much has changed. I think we spoke maybe like a little over a year ago, when you reflect back of like all the things that change in a year, both in terms of technology advancements, but also just the industry, like a lot has changed within cgms and within our company. But with AI specifically, yeah, it is going to make analyzing, I mean, it already is making analyzing large amounts of data, super simple and easy, which is great for both businesses that function on data as kind of the main component. So now instead of just having maybe cgm data, it's going to be a lot easier for us to plug and play other forms of data and put it all together and give you something meaningful. And then it's also going to make it easier for the user, you know, we have the easy ability for you to export every single data point in that kind of like five minute intervals. And then you can kind of if you're savvy enough, you can use simple free AI tools to manipulate that data if you have certain things you want to look for or see that we aren't necessarily providing for you. So I think it just makes it a lot easier to use data for answers, because you don't have to be an analyst anymore to be able to kind of use these tools. So as a company, it's kind of helping us make it easier for making things digestible for people. And it's also helping us to make sure that our human support, which we're actually leaning on even more now in the forefront of AI is still having that human component, but it's helping to kind of augment them and give them the tools and support they need to do their job well.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's really interesting. So do you think you're temporarily leaning on them more or do you think ultimately, you know, it'll be all AI providing that support?

Kara Collier

Yeah, it's hard to predict what exactly will happen and what the gaps are going to be and how much adoption there will be across the board. You know, you still ask the average person on the street if they use chat GBT on a daily basis and most people actually are not. Like it's still really underutilized on just like an average person, but we've actually leaned more on the human component because of a demand from customers. Recently, you know, we used to just provide chat support access to our dietitian so that you could ask questions. And now we do kind of our long telehealth sessions that are reimbursed by insurance. And that really came from the demand of people wanting to turn these data insights into real behavior change. So it's kind of connecting that dot of how do I now turn this into a habit I can stick to? How do I, you know, adjust things when my routine is different? And for some people, I think it just depends on your personality type AI might solve that problem for you. And we're happy to kind of support that person in that way, where I think there is a whole separate group of people that need that human connection in order to reach their goals. So I think it really just depends on your personality type and like what motivates you.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so interested by this, and it's also interesting that you point that out about, you know, not everybody using chat GPT and things like that. Actually, yesterday, the guest I had on the show, I just like brought up chat GPT, I was talking about it, and they actually hadn't, like, they didn't know what I was talking about. And I was like, Oh, like, because I'm so saturated in it, it's like, I use it so much. I forget that everybody's not using it all the time.

Kara Collier

I know I'm currently trying to get my mom to use it more for like basic things. And it's, it's an interesting experience to walk through somebody who's like the learning curve is like, it's not intuitive to them in the same way of like how I would use it for all these different applications. But as soon as like I pointed out, she's like, Oh, that's amazing, but wouldn't have thought of it herself. So I think there's a lot of people like her.

Melanie Avalon

I use it for for everything. It's so it's so helpful. It expands beyond just things like this, but the entirety of health care like will we always want a final human, you know, overseeing everything, especially like surgeries and procedures and records. Do you think there's a future where we're comfortable? I know you're talking about personality types, but do you think there's a future where it's all just automated?

Kara Collier

I think so. I think a lot is going to change. I think we're at the start of exponential change, you know, where it's, we're at that bottom of that exponential curve where I think it's going to be almost, it's going to be very challenging to even imagine what things are going to look like 10 years from now. Cause I think they're going to be so different than even what has changed, you know, in the past 10 years. So I think everything is going to look different eventually. I just don't know when that will happen. Like what is the pace of which this is going to occur in a, which we're all very like normalized and we trust some of these systems. Cause the other thing is, you know, right now there's still the issue of kind of the quality of data you put in is what you get out, but it's, that's going to be less of an issue as things just get more and more intelligent. I think there's going to be time where we trust data a lot more than humans.

Melanie Avalon

It's so interesting. And on a similar note, so the actual technology itself, and it's interesting when I was asking for questions, one of the first comments I got, it actually wasn't a question, but it was a clarification, which I find really helpful from Lisa Marie. And she said that she's a type one diabetic here. She said, please know that CGM tests the interstitial fluid and not the actual blood like blood glucose monitors do. I've heard other podcasts mistake this. It will be interesting to see what questions pop up here. And then Stacy wanted to know how accurate are CGM's. And the reason I'm leaning off of both of those is kind of tying it into this concept of the evolution of everything in the future. So the actual technology of the CGM, because like Lisa Marie was saying, it's not actually measuring our blood sugar levels. It's measuring this interstitial fluid. Is the technology itself, like has it evolved or changed? Is that still how it works? Do you think it will change? And then as far as the accuracy, like how does that tie into the evolution and how the technology might be changing?

Kara Collier

The, that is correct. So the, the CGM they are measuring your glucose in your interstitial fluid, which is just kind of like the fluid in between your cells. So you can think of it as kind of like classic diffusion that we learned in science class. So when your glucose changes first in the bloodstream and then diffuses into the interstitial fluid. So the biggest difference between the values in your blood glucose level and your interstitial fluid is that there's usually a little bit of a delay as it diffuses and the more intense the change. So if you suddenly dump in a ton of glucose into your bloodstream, the faster it's going to diffuse into the interstitial fluid. So the more rapidly it's changing kind of the quicker you're going to see that appear, but if it's a slow change, it will diffuse slowly. So it is an, and one thing that is important to think about though, is that that glucose in our interstitial fluid is still like, you know, it's a part of our body. Like that is like real glucose that is also important to know. So it's not that it's irrelevant. It's just that it's a slight difference from your blood levels. This is especially important for type one diabetics, which are the, you know, the patient population, the audience that these CGM were first created for, and that they're most critical for this audience because they cannot, you know, they type one, type one diabetics do not make insulin. And so they rely on exogenous, you know, injected insulin in order to maintain glucose levels and to live and survive. So those minor fluctuations are really important to be on top of in a type one diabetic. And their glucose swings are much more dramatic typically because, you know, that normal process that a non-type one diabetic kind of naturally has. So their swings might go from 200 to 50 in the matter of, you know, 30 minutes. It's especially important in that group, whereas if you're a non-diabetic, the minor differences, it is important to kind of know that absolute value, but it's the trends and information that you're gaining from like the way your glucose is changing. And that is most useful. So coming to the question then of accuracy and precision, what tends to be very correct, so to speak with the CGM is the precision. So the amount that glucose is fluctuating at different times. So if you compare your overnight average on your Sunday versus Monday, kind of how you're seeing how much those are different between two days is very accurate in that precision. But what might be off is the absolute number. So it could be reading that your glucose is 90 right now, and then jumped up to 120 when in reality it was 80 and jumped up to 110. So we do allow people to calibrate in our app, which means if you know your glucose at that moment, because you recently got a fasted glucose level or your finger pricking is 80, you can adjust it to match that. And then you can kind of see that in real time, a little bit more accurately. But if you don't have that number and you aren't calibrating, you can see that my glucose jumped 30 points and it took four hours for it to come back down to what it was before I ate.

Kara Collier

You can see those trends and variability in your glucose levels, whether the number is exactly on or not.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Okay. So many, I have so many thoughts and questions. I'm just trying to think in all the conversations I've had about CGM's. I don't remember learning that about if it's a bigger change or a faster change that you see it faster on the CGM. That's, that's really, that makes sense though. Okay. Some, some questions there. Well you mentioned just to provide some clarity for listeners about the numbers they actually should be looking for. Andrea had a really good question. She said, what is the optimal blood sugar spike for a given meal? Should your blood sugar never go over X amount or is it more about how quickly your blood sugar returns to normal? I heard someone say your blood sugar should basically stay between 80 to 130 no matter what you've eaten. So can we, um, just kind of clarify for listeners, what numbers they actually should be looking for?

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. And I love this question because I think there is a lot of misinformation around this. The first myth I always like to point out that I think we've discussed is that like an absolutely flat glucose line is not necessarily the end goal. Like zero variability in your glucose is not superior to normal amount of variability. So if your glucose moves because you just ate, that is normal physiological response to eating. But we want to make sure that it's moving in a way that is not too high and it doesn't take too long to get back to normal. And then we also want to put it into context. And this is where kind of either AI detection to put it into context for you or a human to kind of point this out and talk through it is important. Because if you eat something that is just protein and fat, I'm not expecting your glucose to go up too much if there isn't any carbohydrates in it. So it might be ideal if your glucose was starting at 80, if it goes up to a 90 or 100, and then comes back down to 80 within two hours, that's pretty expected. But if you have some carbohydrates, let's say you have half a cup of sweet potato with that same meal, it might be completely normal for it to go up to 120, 130, but then come back down within two hours still. So you do want to take into context like what did I eat to make sure that it's an expected response. But at a high level, we really don't want glucose to go above 140 in an optimal manner. And we want it to kind of come back down to those pre-meal values within two hours of eating. But as I mentioned, if you're following a low carbohydrate diet, if it's just kind of mostly protein and fats, then I really don't expect it to go much above 120, kind of at any point in time with meals. But one last clarification I'll point out is that there's a difference between what is optimal for good long-term health and kind of what is the goal range, which is below that 140, and being metabolically unhealthy. So there are responses when I look at someone's meal response that I would say, this concerns me that maybe there's some metabolic dysfunction, potentially some insulin resistance. And then there are responses where I'm like, this makes sense given the context, but it's not a healthy or ideal response. So to give two examples, you might eat a piece of steak and half of a sweet potato, and your glucose goes up to 140. It takes four hours to come back down to normal. And it's like, I wouldn't have expected it to go that high, and I would have expected it to come back down sooner. This could be something to look into, get your insulin level tested, kind of try some other foods. It might not be a good sign of normal metabolic response. And then there's somebody who maybe drinks an entire Gatorade and their glucose spikes up to 150 and comes back down in an hour. And that response doesn't indicate to me that you have metabolic dysfunction, but it doesn't mean we want to see that response because it's not necessarily good for your body. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, that completely does. And actually, so to that point, and so this is me asking, and then Andrea actually had a follow-up question that is kind of similar. But my question would be, if we're not expecting to see that many fluctuations on like a low-carb diet, a keto diet, maybe even a carnivore diet, is there benefit to using a CGM on that sort of diets? Or is it really just for people who are eating carbs? And then I can tie in Andrea's second question, but maybe I'll start with that.

Kara Collier

Yeah. I definitely think there is still benefit. Usually people who are following a lower carbohydrate diet don't need to wear them for as long to get some insights, but some examples of things you might learn are the impact of meal timing. So sometimes everyone kind of responds differently, but eating later at night versus earlier in the morning, like how does your glucose respond? And then there's also giving you a better picture of what your average glucose levels are because a hemoglobin A1C, which is trying to capture your average glucose, isn't always super accurate. And so this wearing a CGM is another way to kind of see at a broader view, what are your average glucose levels overall, which is really important for overall health. I mean, kind of seeing like, does it come back down to lower values while I'm sleeping when I'm fasted? And then that's kind of the third component is seeing the fluctuations in your fasted glucose levels, which can be impacted by a lot of factors outside of nutrition and carbohydrates. So often we'll see people who are under a lot of stress and those fasted glucose levels are really high, which brings their average glucose levels up and they're not eating any carbohydrates. And the thing they really have to work on is stress management. That could be a similar type of thing for sleep quality or sleep quantity. So there's all these other variables that can impact your glucose levels that a CGM just provides much quicker and more meaningful insight into that are worth at least assessing, even if you're following a low carbohydrate diet. So maybe you wear one sensor for 14 days and everything looks good. You might be good to go and maybe you only wear one once a year to kind of check in where somebody with more of a variability in their diet might need to wear them a couple more to even kind of understand that baseline.

Melanie Avalon

So that actually does tie in really well to Andrea's second question because, so basically she's trying to figure out why her fasting blood sugar is consistently around 100, whereas like she said two years ago, it was always low around in the 80s. And she says she's been taking berberine for a long time. She says she's tried eating higher protein. She avoids processed foods, seed oils, refined sugars and grains. She takes a bajillion supplements. And so she's struggling to figure out why her fasting blood sugar is high. And her two questions here are, one, can high protein cause a higher fasting blood sugar somehow? She said she feels healthy otherwise. Good energy, good muscle mass, very little visceral fat. And then her second question, it's not really a question, but I'm turning it into a question. She said, I'm considering getting a CGM again, but I, oh, this is just a note. She says she thought that the numbers were consistently about 15 millimole difference compared to her finger stick. And since her main concern is now her fasting blood sugar and not the spikes, will it be helpful? So, and her fasting insulin was 4.7 and she's considering metformin. But to recap the questions here, so I guess there's three questions. One, which is what is similar to what we were just talking about, if she's just concerned about her fasting blood sugar, not the spikes per se, would a CGM be helpful there? Maybe we can start with that question.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I still think it's very insightful because you can start to see trends a little bit easier than the finger pricks. And like I said, in our app and in some apps, you can calibrate and some you cannot. So it sort of depends. But if you know, okay, it's consistently 15 points higher, you can kind of just do that mental math in your head that, okay, it's reading 115, but it's actually 100. But it's useful to get that sense of what days are my fasting glucose even higher or lower and like what is driving those changes potentially. Typically, we don't see people have the same exact pattern every single day. And to that point, then kind of bleeding into potentially a second question, is there are other variables that we tend to look at really closely if it seems like the fasting glucose is the thing that is driving up. So I mentioned stress tends to be the top thing for people usually if they have a higher fasting glucose level, but everything else looks good, because that kind of chronic cortisol pulsing that chronic elevated cortisol is going to stimulate the liver to be making glucose. And that tends to drive up our fasted glucose levels. So sort of assessing stress levels, and kind of any form of stress is a good place to start. The second thing tends to be sleep quality and quantity. So kind of looking at that and making sure that you're getting adequate sleep, because that can definitely impact your fasted glucose level. And lastly, in terms of just really common factors for people is the timing of your last meal. Some people seem to be much more sensitive to this than others. There seems to be like a genetic variance to how sensitive you are. But for some people, if you eat later at night, it will bleed all the way into kind of the next day, next morning and impact your fasted glucose levels. So that's another thing to play around with. And as we've kind of mentioned, the benefit of the CGM is that you can experiment with something and get insight quickly. So you could try adjusting that meal timing and see what happens and pretty much assess within one day, if that is making any difference or not. Similarly with adding in a walk before bed or in the evening or after your dinner, you can have a very quick yes or no of what type of impact that had, which I think is one of the main benefits of the CGM is just that quicker learning feedback.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I could not agree more and it's hard to really emphasize just how profound it is until somebody's actually done it, but that in real time data and that really ability to see quick changes, I just think is so, so powerful. So her question about the protein, actually before that, I want to comment on the liver piece. I also love that you brought that up because I think a lot of people think fasting, you know, their fasted blood sugar level is primarily driven by like the food they just ate. But so much of it is the liver actually, you know, producing this glucose, which I think a lot of people don't realize. So her question about can high protein cause fasting blood sugar to be higher? Have you seen that with CGM's?

Kara Collier

Yeah. And to touch on the liver piece, just to emphasize that more, like your liver has unlimited ability to keep making glucose. Like there, there is no upper limit, you know, it's like you can keep making it and making it. Because I think a lot of people under emphasize the amount of stress they're under and how much of an impact that has, but related to protein. So this is something that I get asked quite often. And I have very rarely been able to see a direct link between, okay, we really increased your protein and we saw that fasted glucose go up or we really decreased your protein and we saw fasted, flat, fasted glucose levels drop. So I can't say with certainty, because I haven't done like a, you know, completely randomized controlled trial. But anecdotally, I haven't seen this to make a big impact. I think that the upper threshold of how much protein you have to eat in order for that to start impacting your glucose levels is pretty high and higher than what most people are doing. So it's not to say I don't think it exists. I just don't think it's a common variable that most people are probably needing to deal with. It can, you know, provide the substrates for your liver to make more glucose, as we've mentioned. But again, most of the time I don't, see this direct correlation and it's not usually something that I'm having people worry about too much. Usually I'm having people eat more protein than what they're currently doing.

Melanie Avalon

I tend to err on the side of encouraging more protein rather than less. And we've actually, especially when we have a new co-host now, but Vanessa Spina was our prior co-host and we talked about protein all the time on the show and it's still an ongoing debate. Like it's weird to me that we still don't know that there are still conflicting opinions about if you're eating excess protein, whether or not it becomes glucose or not. Like there's people still debate that.

Kara Collier

Yeah, they do.

Melanie Avalon

I'm like, how do we not know? I feel like this is testable.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I feel pretty good about recommending like higher protein is typically better. And there's like very rare instances where I'm like, that's a lot of protein you're eating. Like usually I'm like, yeah, more protein, please.

Melanie Avalon

It's shocking the amount of protein I eat, but I also don't add a lot to it. I don't think I could eat the amount of protein I eat and also have a ton of carbs or fat as well. This is a random question I just thought of. Have you seen, I'm trying to remember, I don't remember the brand or what it was called, but a company reached out to me and they were making an app that was supposed to show you your blood sugar levels, but it didn't actually test them. Do you have thoughts on that concept? I was very hesitant. I immediately just said no, because I was like, how does it know? Like you could be telling people wrong information.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I would definitely be skeptical of that. And that, that brings to a question I think you had earlier that I might not have finished with just like new technology with measuring glucose levels. What is being tested and I think has a lot of potential, but is not ready for like full market adoption consumer use is kind of detecting your glucose values through like optics and lasers. So, you know, similarly to kind of how we're detecting heart rates from like a wearable or like a watch. I think that there will certainly be a possibility where we'll be able to wear something like that, that is kind of able to detect the glucose levels like in from your, you know, your veins and your, your blood vessels. There's also the ability potentially to detect it in like your eyes. So the small amount of those tiny blood vessels that are in your eyes and kind of similar type of functionality. I haven't seen anything yet that has been that is credible and verified and ready for like market use. So I would say if you have something right now, like anybody out there, like they're seeing an ad for something, I would be skeptical, but I definitely think we're going to have much better technology in the future.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was going to circle back to that. I'm so glad you brought that up again at Nutrisense. Are you actively looking at expanding if there is new technology like that in the future, or I'm just curious about like the company in general. And actually related to that, Anna said, are they available over the counter yet? I had heard a like a rumor or a whisper that maybe that barrier was going to be broken anyways with CGMs. Do you know about all of that?

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. So from a company perspective, we don't make the hardware. We work with the companies who do make it. And then we do the software. So the app and then the services, the nutrition dietitian support on top of it. So we're always looking for like what, and we're not hardware specific, where we only work with, you know, one person, one type, we work with several different ones. And now we also have a better related to the over-the-counter option. We have a better what we call like BYOS, bring your own sensor, because they are available over the counter now. Oh, are they?

Melanie Avalon

Did I miss that?

Kara Collier

Yeah, so it's very recent change. So yes, they're available over the counter, which is a huge change in making them more affordable, more accessible. So we're working directly with those companies as well, to kind of integrate those sensors into our ecosystem to make it even cheaper to our customers as well. And from their perspective, they are still hardware manufacturers that don't really want to play too much in like the consumer side, even though now it's direct to consumer or the software side. So, you know, they're, they want to kind of like stick in that wheelhouse. So it works well to be able to either you can get the sensors directly from them and then use just our app in our dietitian services or kind of still get it through us, but using their hardware because it's continuing to make it cheaper and easier for everybody.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, when did that happen? Do you know?

Kara Collier

I think it was August or September.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, in the fall. Okay. I find it really interesting in the medical community in general, where the barriers are, and where they aren't. Like what we're like allowed access to, and what we're not. I just, I'm, I find it intriguing.

Kara Collier

It is. The whole thing has been interesting because, you know, it's in Europe, they've always been over the counter, same companies, same, you know, manufacturers are allowed to sell them in Europe over the counter. And then in the US, we just kind of, you know, had like an arbitrary rule, but they are still their cgms that they make for so like, you know, the Libre you're familiar with is still a prescription device for diabetics, technically. And then they have their over the counter variation, which has like certain, it has to be like a different sensor, technically, in order to get that approval. So there's still some weird rules and like, things that we're having to go through. But I think the whole landscape is changing. And we're only going to move towards more accessibility, cheaper prices, better technology as things continue to change.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Wow. That's really interesting about the, like the lasers or the eye. And I want to say non-invasive, but putting a CGM on for friends, if you've probably heard me talk about this before, some people can be intimidated because it, there is like a needle that sticks to your skin, but I promise you, you don't, you like don't even feel it. It's so easy to put on.

Kara Collier

Yeah, it's so easy. And if you do any sort of at home finger pricks, that's way worse just like to put it into context way worse.

Melanie Avalon

There's like no comparison.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I hate finger picking now.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, as far as actually lowering blood sugar levels, Amy had some good questions. She wanted to know about some specific different things. So she wanted to know, to help regulate blood sugar, is it better to go on a walk right after a meal? Or if the morning blood sugar is high, is it better to walk before the first meal? So that's the first one she asks about. So walking, and you mentioned walking earlier, so I'm glad she's talking about it. Is the timing of it, do you see a difference?

Kara Collier

Yeah, in general, walking is a great tool. The more you can do it and the more you can kind of get these like micro walks in. So 10 minutes here, five minutes there versus like a really long walk is better. So if you have the ability to do a 10 minute walk in the morning when you wake up and the ability to do 10 minutes walking after each meal, like that's ideal. But if you're like, I'm only going to do it once, I would say right after a meal is the best.

Melanie Avalon

And then another one she asked about when is the best time to take berberine?

Kara Collier

Yeah, I'm also curious to see if you if you have a preferred time, but in general, I see it best with meals. So I tend to recommend if you're kind of splitting it up, like if you're taking it twice a day, kind of taking it with with your biggest meals as the most optimal time, but I recommend taking it consistently. So as opposed to kind of taking it here and there, the more consistent you are, we see I see better benefits, but curious your, your thoughts. 1

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Well, first of all, have I sent you my berberine?

Kara Collier

I think last time you did, yes, yes, you did, because it's in the beautiful glass bottle. I love when they're glass bottles and not plastic.

Melanie Avalon

Me too. Yeah, no, huge Burberry fan here. It's interesting and I'm glad you asked that question because the majority of the research I've seen on Burberry does dose it around meals. That said, I do a daily fast. I fast every day and I eat one meal a day at night. So I actually just personally, I do take it in the morning and then I take it before my meal as well. I just, that's the way I do it.

Kara Collier

Yeah, makes sense. And I think the main recommendation from my awareness of taking it with meals is because sometimes people have GI side effects and they tend to be lessened with with meals, less so of like effectiveness. So if you don't have any sort of, you know, GI issues with it, then I don't think it matters as much.

Melanie Avalon

That's a good point. Yeah. It's also astounding because I think a lot of people think about berberine and they focus on the blood sugar control aspect, but there are so many studies on the other benefits of it beyond that. So helping with cholesterol, it actually, there's a study on showing how it activates AMPK, also microbiome effects. That's why I thought about it. So yeah, it has a lot of potential good benefits, which I love.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. And just like general like suppression of chronic inflammation, those like natural stress pathways. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so low risk, like we don't really see any sort of issues with it.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's great. How about fasting? So I'm going to modify her question a little bit because she's wanting to know, actually before that, since we're talking about blood sugar levels, she wants to know what is the best time to drink apple cider vinegar for blood sugar. She said she's seen 15 minutes before a meal and also right after a meal, does it matter? Do you have thoughts on apple cider vinegar?

Kara Collier

Yeah, I typically see the best benefit with this if it's right before a meal. So just drinking a little bit, diluting it with water if you want to. I know there are also apple cider vinegar supplements, but honestly, just kind of drinking it, taking a quick shot, diluting it into a beverage. A lot of people will dilute it into a plain sparkling water if that's your preference and kind of drinking it right before the meal, I tend to see the best, best impact.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Do you personally use any? Well, I know we're brain. Do you use apple cider vinegar?

Kara Collier

I don't use it consistently. I have used it in Burberry or not Burberry apple cider vinegar is one of those that you can sort of use more randomly and see just as much of an impact versus like needing consistent use to see the benefit. So if I know like I have maybe an abnormal meal coming up that's like higher carbohydrate or kind of something going on, like I'll try to incorporate it. Like I'm like, Oh, a mental note to do it, but it's not a part of my daily routine.

Melanie Avalon

And then Amy's last question was the fasting schedule. She wants to know for blood sugar, is it better to do a long fast or to fast daily for X amount of hours? What might people find with fasting and CGM?

Kara Collier

Yeah, and this is one of those topics where I think wearing the CGM and experimenting is going to be your best option because I see so much variability between people of what what is kind of their optimal sweet spot for fasting. Like as I mentioned, I think there's some good general rules of thumb of like, you know, don't be grazing all day, like make sure you have at least, you know, a little bit of time between your last meal and going to bed, having some sort of fasting window throughout the day. And then beyond sort of the basics, I just, I just see so much variability between what works for people. What you're kind of looking for is what does your glucose look like when you break a fast, so kind of just being mindful of what is the first few bites of food you put in your mouth, please don't start straight with carbohydrates, you'll probably especially the longer you've been fasting, the more important this is of like how you're breaking that fast. And then kind of when it comes to the right timing, you just sort of experiment with different times. And then that fasting window, I think also experiment. I know you you mentioned you do OMAD, and I think it works really well for some people. And then for some people, it doesn't. So I think just kind of testing that out for yourself. And usually the factor that I see of when it doesn't work is if they have a lot of other stressors stacked up in their life. And there's one too many stressors happening. So if you have a very stressful job, and you don't have your stress management under control, and you kind of are doing other things that are putting stress on your body, sometimes the positive stress of fasting and some of these other things like, you know, sauna cold plunge can tip that scale into too much stress. And then we see glucose levels go up fasting glucose levels, postprandial responses, average glucose levels. And so usually it's kind of what which of those things can we adjust so that we can normalize. And then with some people, we see their glucose levels dramatically appear dramatically improve when we add in more fasting than what they're currently doing. So again, I think it's contextual. And I think you have to experiment. But you know, I do recommend kind of the basics of doing some type of fasting window. So you're not eating 24 seven and trying not to eat like right before you go to bed. And then being mindful of how you're breaking that fast is super important.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I just like you're saying, it's so individual. And it also can change, you know, through time, like one thing that's working for you now might be different later. Like I know for me in the past, I went through a period of time where I was very low carb, almost carnivore, and I would have higher fasting blood sugar levels doing that. And then when I actually added in some carbs, I actually started having lower fasting blood sugar levels. And so my theory there is that, you know, my liver was probably like overcompensating, putting out glucose, and then it's actually just brought in, you know, endogenous or exogenous carbs. I feel like it wasn't keeping my levels high all the time. Things just can really change. So if you had to, well, Susan wanted to know what's the best way to lower blood sugar, and we literally just went through so many different ones. But so maybe I'll modify her question a little bit. If you had to, you know, have somebody start somewhere, because that's so many lifestyle factors, like where should somebody like, where should they start? Because it can be a little bit overwhelming, I think.

Kara Collier

Yeah, it definitely can be. And that's again, why I think a CGM can be helpful is because you can kind of identify like, oh, this one meal is like really not working for me. Let me just adjust this thing versus kind of you get a high A1C and you're like, what do I need to do to bring this down? Like what do I, like it feels overwhelming. So it can be helpful to have just like more information so you can pick one thing at a time that you know is working. But if you don't have that, you're like not really sure and you know, your, your glucose is elevated. I would start with just being mindful of your carbohydrate intake. You know, it sounds simple, but that's a good place to start. I think one of the biggest myths out there that I'm sure your audience is a little bit more aware of than maybe the average person is just that like half of your calories should come from carbohydrates. And that's a lot. And like for 98% of people, it's too much. Sometimes I see it work fine for people if they're like athletes usually is pretty much the only bucket that, that amount tends to be okay. And so really just being kind of mindful of that total carbohydrate amount and prioritizing your plate to be more about protein, non-starchy vegetables, if you tolerate those well, and then kind of the carbohydrates are more of a nice to have small amount. So that can make a big difference. And then if you're consuming any form of like liquid carbohydrates, try, try to cut those out and that, cause that makes a big impact. You know, even if it's sort of quote unquote natural juices, that's still a very concentrated form of carbohydrates, any sort of sweetened beverage, sweetened coffees, Gatorade, you know, checking the sugar content of like electrolytes. So trying to just be mindful of that liquid sugar is another really kind of like big place to start kind of auditing your sugar intake.

Melanie Avalon

I'm pretty sure I think we talked about this before. I'm so fascinated by this question. So I'll re-ask it. How do you feel about the recommendation people make to add fat to your carbs to slow down the absorption of the carbs?

Kara Collier

Yeah. So it is this concept of kind of like no naked carbs, which I do think has validity to it. But what I see work a lot better than just kind of coding carbohydrates and fat is eating some protein before you have any form of carbohydrate. So back to that kind of point of how you break a fast, if you are in a fasted state and your first bite of food is like a banana, you're probably a piece of steak and then some non-starchy vegetables, like you're doing Brussels sprouts or whatever it is, and then like banana is your dessert or whatever, however you're arranging that. It's probably going to be a much more blunted glucose response, which is going to have a less of an impact directly on kind of your blood vessel health and that endothelial tissue and those things that kind of cascade from a dramatic glucose spike. So it is beneficial to first prioritize eating protein before you have carbohydrates and not eating them by themselves. But that doesn't mean that trying to think of a good example. If you're eating potatoes, that putting a bunch of olive oil on top of them makes them significantly better. That's kind of where we're headed. Instead, I would say eat a piece of fish and then have a few bites of potatoes if you want them and see what your glucose does.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I feel like my take on it is a little controversial, but I actually, I don't know. I just feel like if you're having carbs, adding fat to that just seems like a bad idea to me. Because then you're, I love the idea, basically for carbs, I would say add what you just said, protein or like green veggies. Because then you're gonna slow the absorption, but you're not gonna be adding in a competing fuel source. Because when you're adding in the fat, then you're just encouraging a situation, in my opinion, of energy toxicity. Because now you have like, you're adding a lot of calories, you're adding two fuel sources of fat versus carbs. It just seems, I don't know, compared to if you add in the protein or the veggies, but not adding in the fat, you can still be using that glucose and those carbs as fuel, the protein will be slowing everything down. I don't think it'll be running into this like conflicting fuel option.

Kara Collier

I agree. And I think volume matters. Like what the quantity of food definitely makes an impact. So it's like, you know, if we start to get where the quantity of food is more than your body needs, then it's it is going to start kind of kicking that in. But if it's like smaller amounts, it doesn't matter as much. But what I always recommend is that focusing on protein versus fat, because I also don't see fat blunt the glucose response nearly as well as protein or fiber does anyway. So it doesn't seem to have as powerful of an effect in that. And it is like, fat is extremely calorically dense. I am not fat phobic. I'm pro fat. But that doesn't mean that we want to like I maybe this is controversial, but I am not in the camp of add more fat to everything. Like the butter coffee is not my vibe. Because what I see often of what this actually turns into of people what people actually do with that is they're eating carbohydrates and they're putting butter in their coffee. And now we've just added 300 calories of butter for no reason. And like they're not any more satiated. They're not eating any less. They're not in ketosis. They're just adding more fat in random places. And that's not helpful.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I actually I'm on I'm on the same page there, because I feel like that's such a common recommendation. Add fat to your carbs. And it really should be add protein to your carbs. Like that would just be such a better recommendation, I think for for people.

Kara Collier

And usually the fat source people are adding that situation isn't necessarily like nutrient dense either, it's not like adding a lot of value.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Yeah. So true. So we're talking a lot about using a continuous glucose monitor for blood sugar levels. And I think we're kind of focusing on, well, actually we haven't even really defined this. So blood sugar levels and how it does relate to metabolic health in general. So that's me asking you, like, what are your thoughts there? Stephanie wanted to know, does glucose have any relation to heart health or cholesterol? Would her general practitioner give her a prescription if she asked? That's a good second question. Okay. So a few different things there. So general health, do the blood sugar levels, how do they affect our metabolic health? Does it relate to heart health? What are your thoughts there?

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. So metabolic health and metabolism in general, I think of as like this whole bucket of all the processes our body is doing in order to turn food into usable fuels. So thinking about digesting, absorbing, processing, transporting, excreting, it's all of the different processes required to utilize the energy that we're putting into our system and the energy that we've stored in our system. So that's like metabolic health and metabolism as a whole. And then glucose is one of those main fuel points, right? So we have glucose, we have fats and fatty acids, and those are our two main fuel sources. Of course, there's also ketones. And so by monitoring that, we have a good idea of kind of how that metabolic system is working. And typically you don't have glucose. It's not usually like if you keep going down a certain path of metabolic dysfunction, that you're only going to have one issue, that you're just going to have glucose issues and never lipid issues, or you're just going to have lipid issues and never glucose issues. So typically, like if we have metabolic dysfunction, that means our energy processing, transporting, all of those different systems are not working as they're designed to be working. And so you can kind of see that by watching how your glucose levels change and react and how they fluctuate. There's definitely a correlation with glucose levels and cardiovascular health, heart disease risk. And that's where tracking glucose levels tends to be easier than tracking lipids because we have the technology to monitor it in this 24 seven way. So usually when we improve glucose levels, we tend to kind of improve metabolic health as a whole, which then has that kind of ripple effect bleeding into improving lipid levels and kind of those other areas. But it doesn't just start with cardiovascular health. One thing I always like pointing out is that it also has a direct impact on kind of the sort of brain function side of things. So both risk for conditions like Alzheimer's and dementia, but also kind of your day to day ability to concentrate cognitive function memory, because that, you know, our brain is very glucose dependent and very insulin sensitive organ. So that's kind of another major area that by monitoring glucose levels and optimizing them kind of having that big impact on long term and short term health.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, yeah. When she asked about would her general practitioner give her a prescription, if she asked, I'm curious if she's asking about like for her blood sugar levels or if if he would give it to her based on her cholesterol. But either way, do you find doctors are open to prescribing them to people?

Kara Collier

Yeah, historically, not so much, which is why we decided to do it ourselves. You started your company. Yeah, so we traditionally know, and I think part of the resistance here is that they're not trained on what to do with the information. It's like, okay, if I give this to a non-diabetic, and they come back and tell me, look at my glucose levels, how was it? They don't know because the only... And I really can't blame them for that because the only thing they've been trained on is maybe managing the diabetics levels, which is honestly very, very different. So part of it is, how do they help somebody if they do give it to them? And then the other is, it's not anywhere in traditional guidelines that this is a use case. So traditional medical triaging, an intervention for somebody, this is nowhere in the standard recommendations that it might be a useful tool. So unless you get somebody who's maybe more of in the functional medicine space, it's probably unlikely that they're going to, unfortunately. But yeah, that's sort of why we exist. And now that things are moving a little bit more over the counter, you can kind of bypass that all in general. So I would kind of go around them if they're resistant.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And I don't know the, obviously I don't know the technicalities of the medical system and how it works, but I would imagine, I know for doctors, there's a lot of pressure about what they can and can't prescribe and there's codes they have to follow. And so I would imagine it's probably not the easiest for them to prescribe a CGM without like a verified you are diabetic or pre-diabetic like code to put in the system.

Kara Collier

Definitely like insurance won't cover it and so usually weren't they're not typically thinking about things if it's not in a classic like insurance coverage route

Melanie Avalon

And so, glad we're talking about this, to clarify, so when people use Nutrisense, what is the setup? How many CGM's do they get? How does it work with the app? What is that experience like?

Kara Collier

Yeah. So each CGM lasts 14 days. So kind of our minimum order is to do two CGM's or like a month supply. And that's a great place to start if you're not really sure, if you just kind of want to check it out, or if you're generally healthy and just want to see some of these additional like insights that we talked about. So if you were to just do the one month, then you would get those two CGM's shipped to your door. You just kind of sign up on our website online. It's super simple. You fill out a quick health questionnaire, and then we'll ship it to your door. And then you have access to the app, which is where you'll see your glucose data. Once you put the sensor on, you can log your meals, you can kind of sync with your wearables. So any data from like your Apple watch or your or ring will sync on there. And that's also where you can schedule and book calls with our nutritionists and where you can kind of connect with them. Like I mentioned, now we offer full video consults, which again, for some people using the app, looking at the data, reading our blogs, talking to our kind of like chatbot that has all of our information might be enough. But then for other people, there was this big issue of kind of like what now or what does this mean, or what's most important to take away from here. Being able to kind of connect with that human helps people really turn the data into actions and change. And so then we also offer three months, six months and 12 months subscriptions. So you can change to those plans at any time, but it gets cheaper, kind of the longer the commitment term.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. And yeah, this will be a good time. So I will give listeners a link, because we do have a discount code for you guys. So thank you so much for that Kara. So people can go to Nutrisense.com slash if podcast. So that's n u t r i s e n s e comm slash if podcast and use the code I have podcast that will get you $30 off and one month of free nutritionist support. So definitely check that out. I'm super curious just like a day in your life, Kara at Nutrisense. Like what's a day in the life? I mean, I know we're like podcasting right now. But you know, where's your focus? What are you doing? Like was what's it like being at the company?

Kara Collier

Yeah, that's a great question. It's all over the place. I would say one thing that is always true is that a one day never looks the same as another day. But largely, so I'm responsible, really paying attention to our dietitian services. So everything that our dietitians touch and making sure that they are, you know, adequately staffed, trained, supporting our customers in the right appropriate way. And then anything that kind of requires knowing anything subject matter expertise. So I'm working with product a lot to make sure our product is really good, and scientifically sound and also useful and actionable. And then kind of external facing activities like this that require some of that more knowledge about kind of the nitty gritty of what it all means.

Melanie Avalon

And two more personal questions. One, how often do you wear a CGM?

Kara Collier

Well, I'm actually wearing one right now. So pretty often, I think when I first started wearing them, I wore them pretty much 24 seven, where now I probably tend to put one on every, I don't know, maybe two or three months, sometimes I'll wear them more often, if just there's like something happening in my life that I'm trying to pay more attention to. But in my normal routine, it's it's Yeah, maybe once every quarter. So

Melanie Avalon

This is actually really inspiring me because I haven't worn one in a while and I have one. So for me guys, so I'm going to I'm going to put that on like really soon. And what are you most excited about in the future with all of this?

Kara Collier

Yeah, similarly to what we've talked about, I think we're really at a cusp of a lot of positive change happening. So I'm excited about all of the technology advancements that are going to be coming, but I'm also really excited in terms of kind of the switch to the over-the-counter sensors. Because I think they're going to become more normalized. More people are going to be wearing these. They're going to be cheaper, which is going to make it easier for a lot more people to use them. And they're just going to become better technology that are easy to understand, easy to wear. They're going to last longer. And just like my personal goal, the reason I got in this in the first place is because I really, truly believe that if everybody wears even just one CGM, we will be healthier as a nation. So that is my big picture, moonshot goal, is that everybody wears at least one. Honestly, we still have a lot of improvement to make in our health as a society, but I'm optimistic that we'll at least be heading in the right direction, hopefully.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Now I feel like I'm plagiarizing because literally that is how I open my conversations of CGMs. I always just say, especially for people who aren't familiar, I'm like, if everybody could just wear a CGM, like once, even just once, it would change the metabolic health of our nation. Like, hands down. Hands down. That's incredible. And it's really good to hear because I was curious when I first heard that, yeah, CGMs are going to become more accessible or maybe not require prescription. I was wondering how it was going to affect companies like you. Like, would you see that as, you know, a threat because you're providing CGMs, you know, and now people can get them over the counter. It's good to hear that you're all about the more access and the abundance. Because even if you get one over the counter, that is not going to help you analyze that data, make sense of it. I think so many people, you know, they get a CGM and then it's like, now what? You need something that helps you to understand everything. And Nutrisense, the app, and everything that you're doing is just so, so valuable for that. So, like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. And it's definitely synergistic. You know, if I love that they're going to be, you know, cheaper and easier, but it's also they are not they're not good at making apps or accessible data. So it's definitely synergistic of what we do and what the hardware manufacturers do.

Melanie Avalon

So again, for listeners, cannot recommend enough getting a CGM, go to Nutrisense.com slash I have podcast use the code I have podcast to save $30 and get one month of free nutrition and support. So well, this was awesome. I would love to just keep having you on annually if you're down because I, I just think this is so so helpful for people and I just can't thank you enough for all you're doing. So so thank you so much for everything that you're doing.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. I would be thrilled to make it an annual change and honestly, so much changes in a year would be fun to kind of do at that cadence.

Melanie Avalon

I know. It's really exciting, especially like going back to what we were talking about in the beginning. Like just so much has changed even from last time we talked, so. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day and we will have to talk again soon.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Melanie. Bye.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Feb 09

Episode 408 – Does MCT Oil Break The Fast?, GMO Probiotics To Break Down Alcohol, Fasting Tea And Coffee, Fasting For Colonoscopy Prep, Habits And Planning, Our Favorite Biohacks, Infrared Saunas And Red Light Therapy, And More!

Welcome to Episode 408 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad

I'm good i'm really really good actually i feel super rested recharged how you feeling today.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad you're feeling that way. I'm hoping that like comes over to me because I love energy. And so the more, the merrier.

Barry Conrad

I'm sending it to you right now through the computer. Take it, take it, take it.

Melanie Avalon

Normally this is my vibe, like 8 o'clock PM my time, but yeah, I'm a little bit on the struggle bus. But last night I went to a restaurant which was South African.

Barry Conrad

Wow. Where was it? What was it called? What kind of food? What was the situation like?

Melanie Avalon

It's called Yibo Beach House, spelled like H-A-U-S, I think, in Buckhead in Atlanta. I only realized it was South African because like half of the wines were, it was a lot of South African wines. Which, do you like South African wine? Have we talked about this?

Barry Conrad

We haven't talked about this, but they, I was about to say they know we, I should say, because I'm South African, we know how to do wines. It's it's really, really easy to drink. It's paired well with like meats, especially like Springbok, Budovos, Biltong, all that.

Melanie Avalon

That was a lot of words that I don't think I, what was the first one?

Barry Conrad

Springbok.

Melanie Avalon

spring, bok, buck, like a deer.

Barry Conrad

Like yeah, exactly. So spring book is

Melanie Avalon

ringed deer.

Barry Conrad

Yeah it's actually ends but we call it like for example like a rugby team is the spring box or would like to call them the book like the book.

Melanie Avalon

And it's deer, venison.

Barry Conrad

You can eat it yeah and it's it's honestly amazing like the springbok lamb shanks wow incredible.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, wait, but that would be lamb. Now I'm confused.

Barry Conrad

Like Springbok Shanks, I should say. Kind of like Springbok. I went to South Africa a couple of years ago on a trip, listeners, and we got to stay at the safari, and they fed us like Springbok Shanks, Boudevoirs, amazing chicken paired with ones. Boudevoirs? Boudevoirs. Can you try to say it? Boudevoirs? Almost, yeah. You got to roll the R.

Melanie Avalon

I can't do that. Can you do that? I've heard if you don't learn how to do it, you can't ever do it.

Barry Conrad

Maybe you can go Brouwars? It's not quite the same.

Melanie Avalon

I'm not saying it again. I'm not saying it. I'm tapping out. So what is that? That word I will not say.

Barry Conrad

So the boudevoirs, the word that you are tapping out of, it's sausage. So African sausage, we have it on, you know, like people call the barbecue, like a barbecue, we call it a braai, B-R-A-A-I, and it's like a barbecue, but way better, and we have boudevoirs on the braai, it's the best sausage you'll ever have, it's amazing, not just saying it, we have to try it together.

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if that was on the menu, I should have looked at the menu more.

Barry Conrad

What did you have then? Just the wines?

Melanie Avalon

I just drank wine. So they had a lot of South African wines, but none of them were organic. And South African wines, because of the hotter climate, I'm assuming would be higher alcohol, higher sugar. So yeah, they had one organic wine and it was my favorite white varietal. So I was a long day. I don't even know how to say it. Milan de Bourgogne from France. It was

Barry Conrad

Like a peanut, what kind of, what does it taste similar to, like a peanut grease you?

Melanie Avalon

It tastes like melon, honestly, which I love. It's really light, fruity, melony. Melony, not Melanie. Melony. But and something I had before, which I'm dying to tell listeners about. I literally did not plan this, but perfect segue. I interviewed recently Zach Abbott. He is the founder of a company called Zebiotics. Have you heard of this company? I haven't told me. So he made the world's first genetically modified probiotic. So the probiotic is genetically engineered. And we had a whole side topic discussion about the like the misperception of GMOs. Like they're not necessarily bad. Like the concept of like genetically engineering something or modifying something. They modify this probiotic to create the enzyme which breaks down diacetaldehyde, the toxic byproduct of alcohol metabolism. Oh, wow. Yeah. So your liver is really good at breaking that down, but the stomach cannot doesn't really have that enzyme. So according to him, a lot of like the negative effects from drinking come from the diacetaldehyde that is in the stomach because there's no enzyme to break it down because it doesn't all make its way to the liver. So this probiotic is engineered to create that enzyme. So you take it before drinking. It's called Zebiotics. It's like in a little, it's a liquid in a little like shot. You take a shot of it before drinking and it breaks down that, that toxic byproduct. So it is amazing for, if you're drinking a lot or moderately.

Barry Conrad

We need that, Mel. We need to try that. I think that's for us.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I'm using it now, like on the regular. And now every time I go out, I take it before hand. I'm obsessed. It's like part of my protocol.

Barry Conrad

How long before you drink do you have to take the shot is it like a half an hour is like faster an hour?

Melanie Avalon

Like right before you start drinking, but it also lasts 24 hours, which is cool. And he said it produces more, like more enzyme than you could ever drink enough to, like it's enough to cover however much you're drinking, essentially. I'm noticing a difference. Like it really works. And I posted about it in my Facebook group and so many people commented saying that they've tried it and it really, they really noticed a difference.

Barry Conrad

So you feel, what do you feel when you have it compared to before when you weren't trying it?

Melanie Avalon

I just, well, I do so many other things in my like drinking protocol. So I don't really get intense hangover-y type symptoms ever. Cause I'm like so intense with everything, but I just notice, so it's comparing it, I don't know. I drank a lot for new years.

Barry Conrad

like what

Melanie Avalon

will dry farm wines, but then they had like cheap champagne and I had some of that and it was like way too much. And I definitely noticed the next day, like not, I just would have felt that a lot more, I think, if I hadn't had that before. So I highly recommend it. He also has one that I have not tried that turns some sugar into fiber. It like converts sugar into fiber. I have not tried that one yet.

Barry Conrad

like commercially where like people need these things because this is going to just help like your everyday life. I need to try these both of those.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, it's it's super cool. So if listeners are interested, I wonder if they ship to Australia.

Barry Conrad

Australia was about to ask.

Melanie Avalon

Probably not. But maybe. Actually, I don't know. I feel like with their regulations and stuff, we should check.

Barry Conrad

Does it come like refrigerated in the start of the year? Probably, I don't know if it would.

Melanie Avalon

it's not refrigerated, it's shelf stable. Yeah. But in any case, listeners, if they would like to try it, they can go to Melanie Avalon.com slash Z Biotics. So it's Z B I O T I C S. Use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off. Definitely check that out. Literally, like I said, it is part of my protocol now, not every night because of the cost of it, but on nights that go out for sure.

Barry Conrad

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to jump on that train. It's super cool.

Melanie Avalon

Anything new in your life before we jump into topics?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I've I've actually been revisiting like a book that I have read before it's called atomic habits. Have you heard of that book?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, that's one of my favorite books. It's shocking how long that book was on the New York Times bestseller list. It just never left the list. It just stayed there.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. And listeners, if you don't know about this book, it's by James Clear. And it's basically about habits, but not just a generic way of explaining it. It's about small, consistent daily habits over time, rather than a big, dramatic one. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And making it easy and more identity based. So for example, rather than saying, I can't have that to eat. It's like, well, I'm a healthy person kind of a thing. So basically, creating more of a structure around your life. So you don't need the self control, basically making it hacking your habits in a way. And so I think it's super cool. Because, I mean, Mel, you and I talked about this a while ago, how, like, there's more freedom and structure. I really think that I've always lived that way. And this book is all about that. And even if you were to tie it back to, like, even like intermittent fasting, it's the same sort of thing. Like the structure of having a fasting or eating window. And just remember the decision fatigue. And we're not making choices all day. So I think it's such a good book. I love it. It's a really, really good book for any time of year. So I highly recommend that. Listeners, please check it out, Atomic Habits by James Clear.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. I actually, I think that's the one that I, wait, is that the one that I cried at the end? Wait, have you finished it?

Barry Conrad

I've read it once before, but I'm going through it again, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Do you remember at the end, does he talk about mindfulness and stuff? Is that how it ends? Okay. Yeah. I cried. How are you consuming it? I usually...

Barry Conrad

Consuming having it with like a knife and fork no I usually I usually listen audiobook for nonfiction but this one I kind of wanted to sit down and read something because it was getting distracted a lot and I wanted to kind of block things out some reading it the paperback.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I listened to it and him reading the ending. I was crying. I was like, what am I doing?

Barry Conrad

What about the ending made you cry? Like, why, what do you think? That was probably.

Melanie Avalon

probably like 2018, it's probably like six or seven years ago, something about just how motivating it was. It was really inspiring. Yeah, I love what you said about it's really great for something like working on habits surrounding fasting and things like that. It's funny, I actually thought about you last night because I was talking with one of the girls and we were talking about, because you just mentioned the freedom and structure concept, and we were talking about making plans. And I was talking about how I feel safe when there were plans. I need plans to feel in control of life and feel safe and feel good and have freedom. And she was saying that the idea of planning something is horrible. It makes her feel constricted and horrible and want to run away. And it's so interesting that people can have completely different feelings about that.

Barry Conrad

I'm with you. There's more freedom in that because you can always divert from the plan, but not having a plan is kind of like, Oh, what's going to happen? Okay, let me zoom out for a second. I think in certain situations, not all situations, if you're hanging out with people on the day and you're kind of just having a day all day, like I'd go with the floor and whatnot. But if I'm scheduling a specific time or whatever, I'd love to just schedule that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, same. We were talking about the example of like, I love making future plans. Like I have, you know, my guests are scheduled out through 2026. I have like theater shows scheduled out to go to through like the whole year. And she was saying that the idea of like making a plan to see a show in May is just like the worst, you know, like really, she does not like that concept. And I

Barry Conrad

That is really interesting. And that's actually so far in the future. I don't think I'm that, I don't know if I'm that well versed in the planning, but I think, you know, maybe it's going to inspire me to do that more. Because sometimes I can see if something's so far in the future, I'm like, am I going to be around? And you kind of get like trepidation or fear about like, what if I'm going to miss out on something else? But sometimes it's good just to be, well, it is good just to be certain and just, you know, decisive and just plan it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's kind of like what you said. You don't have, you know, once the time comes, things can change. But if I don't plan it, then, and it's something I want to do, then I don't know that I actually might be able to do it unless I put it down on my calendar. Yep.

Barry Conrad

I'd love to see your calendar. It's probably like so crazy, like just dates everywhere, writing everywhere, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Melanie Avalon

It makes me happy. It's my favorite thing. Okay. Shall we jump into some intermittent fasting related things?

Barry Conrad

Julian on Facebook says, I just recently started implementing black coffee with MCT oil in the morning during a fasted state. I usually also take seropeptase during that time as well. Would it be fine to take both MCT oil and seropeptase simultaneously? I want to make sure the MCT oil didn't interfere with the seropeptase since it's helped my sinuses drastically. Also, if I'm having black coffee with MCT oil, would I still be in the fasted state? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you. All right, Julian, thank you so much for your question. So it's a pretty simple answer. Well, first of all, about being in the fastest state with the MCT oil, this is heavily debated as it has been for eons and eons. On this show, consistently, we do believe, well, actually, Barry, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Historically, we believe that having anything caloric, especially something like MCT oil, like fat, would, quote, break the fast, because you're taking in calories. People say that MCT oil doesn't break the fast because it's a type of fat that's immediately, essentially, shuttled to the liver for energy, and it supports the production of ketones. So people will say that it's supporting the fasted state because it's just creating more ketones and running on fat. I believe, though, you're taking in calories, it is a food, so I do not consider black coffee with MCT oil still being in the fastest state. I would see it as being in a state fed on MCT oil and still producing ketones like the fasted state, but not actually being fasted. What are your thoughts on that, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree. I mean, it has calories, so that technically it's going to break your fast. So, you know, if you're wanting to do, if you're someone that subscribes to like a modified fast approach, which some people say, because you want mental clarity or energy without spiking insulin too much, go ahead. But I personally, and I know that you feel the same way, it's not really the clean fast. It's going to break your fast. Do you know what I mean? So I'm on that team for sure. I'd skip the MCT all and just, you know, just have it during the faster window. I mean, just, just have it during eating. We know, I should say, let's do that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and when I add MCT oil it actually for me would always make me hungrier when I would experiment with that I don't know. Have you experimented with adding MCT oil to your coffee ever?

Barry Conrad

You know, during the bulletproof craze, I've introduced butter and whatnot, but not MCT oil so much. Is it much different? Like the feeling or the taste or the effect, having a bit of butter?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it is. It is pretty different because the butter is a long chain triglyceride. So it's like a saturated fat that has to be broken down, digested, you know, turned into energy. And then like I was saying before, MCT oil, especially there's like, there's the C8 and the C10 version, and I would always get the C8 version, which is even quicker in how it is metabolized and turned into ketones. So it does provide like much faster energy. The taste is different because butter has like a buttery taste, MCT oil tastes. I love the way it tastes. I actually used to put in my food sometimes. It's a very neutral taste.

Barry Conrad

your food.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah when i was doing like low carb for a while i would just add a lot of empty oil so i feel like it really makes the food i don't know i love it i love the taste of it.

Barry Conrad

Is this kind of like when you would have the rotisserie chicken that phase? Like when you put the amputee over that or not really?

Melanie Avalon

Not that they actually back then I was doing a lot of coconut oil, which has MCTs in it, but it's primarily that that's a misconception. People think coconut oil is like all MCTs. It's not. It's like a small, a little bit of it is MCTs, but the majority of it is actually lauric acid. A majority of it is lauric acid, which is a long chain fatty acid. No, this was after, after that phase. But when I would do like, I just went through a stint where I was doing like low carb, quote, high fat, but it was high MCT oil fat. I actually think that's a good hack for people if what they're doing isn't working and they're doing low carb, but they still want to do low carb and they don't want to try like a carb approach. I think switching out all your fats for MCT oil or even just like removing your fats and just adding a little bit of MCT oil can actually be a way to try to break a plateau or get weight loss going again.

Barry Conrad

Right. Julian, if you're in doubt, the rule of thumb, the best way to approach it is black coffee, water, black tea. If you're having to flirt with anything else, if it has calories, it's going to break your fast. Just keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

I agree with you Barry so much like people stress a lot about all the different things to like the perfect, you know, fasting supporting drink or supplement or do you want to add amino acids? Do you want to add these different pre-workout things and really friends like coffee and tea are just like the work so well. Yeah, we love peak tea around here. They actually have a fasting tea that they made in collaboration with Dr. Jason Fung. The bergamot one is just pure organic black tea. And so again, Dr. Jason Fung helped formulate that to help support fasting. So listeners can actually get 10% off when you go to peaklife.com slash IF podcast, that's P-I-Q-U-E-L-I-F-E.com slash IF podcast. That's on the tea front. And then hopefully we're recording a little bit in advance, but hopefully by the time this comes out, my glow coffee will be hopefully on its way. So plug for that. We're creating that to be the highest CGA content coffee possible and CGA is the antioxidant, which is one of the main antioxidants that gives coffee all of its health benefits. So we specifically searched and sought out beans that are high naturally in CGA. And then we roast them, especially to be high in CGA. And then we third party lab test the coffee to make sure it's free of toxins and mold and pesticides and all the things. And actually over the holidays, Barry, I wish you could have been there. This was so fun. We did a blind taste test with like six of my friends and we tasted it against two other coffee brands that are similar to see what people liked the most. I was happy with the results. We tasted three coffees. It was neck and neck with one of them for being the crowd favorite. And then the other one people did not like as much.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Is there like a profile of coffee that you like?

Barry Conrad

Not too bitter, but I don't love too light. It's got to still give me that kick. Like I love actually tasting the coffee. So somewhere probably profile wise, mid to strong, I would say. Yeah. I need to try some of it when it comes out when it's ready. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon

or like wrapping up right now, like the art and yes. And I love the way it tastes. It's lighter to medium. It does have like some fruity notes and acidity to it, but it does have like a nutty flavorful finish as well. It tastes really good. It was half of the people's favorite out of all the three.

Barry Conrad

It's so exciting, I can't wait to try it.

Melanie Avalon

I'm excited too. You and I were talking offline, just while we're talking about drinks and pre-workouts breaking the fast. What did you get asked recently from somebody about a drink breaking the fast?

Barry Conrad

somebody asked me the other day, they were like, if I drink this, I'm not going to say the brand, this zero sugar energy drink, will that break my fast? Because, bro, it's like, it's energy. So, and it has no sugar. So, surely, that'll be fine. I'm like, bro, it's not fine. It's going to break too fast. It has calories. It's besides the point. Do you get asked that?

Melanie Avalon

Yes. And there's just so many, I like shutter when I look at those drinks, like all the ingredients in them and things. Like you could just get, like I was saying before, you could get health benefits and support your metabolism and all the things with, you know, a really good organic tea or coffee. That'll do it.

Barry Conrad

So you need, just get that glow. Get it. Yep. So we have a question from Jill and she asked, how to incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so Jill, I'm so, I'm actually surprised in the seven years or so that I've done this podcast that I don't think we've been asked this. And what's interesting about it, Well, Barry, have you had a colonoscopy?

Barry Conrad

This is very tasty conversation and I have not yet, but I actually am totally keen to try one because I heard it has so many benefits, right? Clearing out your system.

Melanie Avalon

Well, so Australia, they must have different. So like here in the US, I think you like are supposed to get one. Okay. So actually I just checked the rules. I guess I thought, I thought it was like in your thirties that you were supposed to get one in the US, but in the US it's, they recommend at 45. And then earlier, if you have a family history of colorectal cancer. Yeah. So I've actually had three, three already. Yeah. That's why I have so many thoughts. That's about this question.

Barry Conrad

I, Melanie, I have not had one, I can safely say, but I definitely, even though I did confuse it with something else before, it's very important to get one because of, especially have family history, and I am due to get one, so.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, Barry was confusing it with colonics, which I love colonics do not get me started on colonics. We actually have talked about those on the show, but for the colonoscopy, so I didn't ever have it. I didn't have it for like, I don't have a genetic risk for cancer or anything. I just had it because of my, because of my anemia, actually they were trying to see, which I don't have anymore, but they were trying to see if I had internal bleeding or something like that. So the prep for it, because she says, how do you incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep, you actually drink, it's, it's not fun. You have to, I'm like having flashbacks. You have to drink this like liquid laxative, like we're talking like a gallon of it. Like it is so much that you have to drink. I think it changes the different times I've done it, but I started an amount of time before you stop eating and then you just start drinking and drinking this stuff. Yeah. It's funny though. This is what's funny about it. So one of the times I did it, I was actually in the hospital for anemia. So I didn't have the, I wasn't able to kind of like make it my own. Like if I, cause when I did it at a later time, they just gave me the powder to make the drink and then you could like flavor it with the flavors they gave you. But I wanted to make it as like clean as possible. So I didn't do that, which I will circle back to you about how to incorporate fasting. But when I was in the hospital, I had to just drink, they already pre-mixed it. I had to drink it. It had like, we were talking earlier about flavors and stuff. It had all this like horrible stuff in it, like probably Stevia sweetened. I hadn't had anything like flavored and fake tasting in forever that literally when I started drinking it, I was like, this tastes amazing. Cause it tastes like candy cause I hadn't had like, you know, I hadn't had like that fake flavor-y stuff in years. I was like, this is great. It's like drinking Pez. Do they have Pez in Australia?

Barry Conrad

We don't have Pez. What is that similar to? Is it like a sugary drink? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

And no, no, no, it's like, it's like Pez dispensers, like these little like, it's like all the different, they're like different cartoon characters and then they dispense these little like sugar tablets that are flavored.

Barry Conrad

I feel like I feel like I can see what you're talking about and that's that's pretty delicious but drinking it. Yeah, I can see that.

Melanie Avalon

it literally tastes like that. But then by the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like horrible. I can't not drink another sip. But in any case, so my reframe for colonoscopy prep as a expert colonoscopy undergoer is it is a nice chance to do an extended fast because you do have to stop eating a certain amount of time before the surgery. It's not, I said surgery before the procedure. You have to be drinking this stuff, which even though it's, if you do like the flavored stuff, it does quote break the fast, but it isn't any calories. So you're not taking in any calories and then you like clean everything out. And then if you try to think if I like did not eat that, basically I was able to incorporate it and have a, an extended fast. All right, because the night before I didn't eat the night before cause I was doing the prep. So it was kind of a nice way to get in like a lot longer fasting hours and you actually can drink bone broth. So the most recent time I did it, I drank bone broth. So that actually was like food. So that time I kind of saw it as like an extended fast with a bone broth fast added on or like my normal fasting with like a bone broth fast. If you have to do a colonoscopy prep, I would try to make the actual stuff that you drink as benign as possible. So if you can get the version, cause it's usually covered by insurance, you can get a version where you're flavoring it yourself. Then you can just not use those flavor packets and you can flavor it with more helpful options. So I went to the store and I bought cause what it comes with is like is flavored with artificial sweeteners that are not good and you know, stuff you don't want. So I would, I went and found these like stevia flavored things at the store, which were a little bit more benign to flavor it. So I would recommend doing that. And then if you actually want to have food as well, you can do bone broth. So you can see it as like a way to have a bone broth thing. And then you have the procedure, which is actually, you know, you're under anesthesia. So it's quick from your perception.

Barry Conrad

You had the bone broth and you're just awake in two seconds.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you'll have to report back, Mary, if you do this.

Barry Conrad

So clear, non-caloric liquids, what I'm hearing is non-caloric liquids like water, bone broth, if allowed by your doctor, if they prescribe that, make sure you're hydrated beforehand, but also adjusting your fasting ahead of time. How did you approach your fasting maybe the day, two days beforehand?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I did completely normal up until the day before. And then the day before was the day where I had to start the prep. So that's where I got in my longer fast because normally I would have eaten that night but I didn't I for the first two I didn't have anything caloric I just had those drinks and then the third time I did it I had bone broth. Yeah, so basically the day before is where I didn't have a one meal a day meal like I normally do so I got in a longer fasting period of time and then had the procedure the next day and then you can eat well, I don't know if they recommend like go I think they do recommend like going slow but I'm so used to that's one thing I've noticed like I'm so used to fasting during the day and then eating a massive meal at night that I don't have to make any special like adjustment I don't need to like ease into my big meal again I'm like good to go. Yeah, you're good to go. Yeah, but I've been doing one meal a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, it's the same thing where doctors always say ease into it after any kind of a surgery or procedure, but I think the great thing about fasting is you already are having that long time of not eating, so your body's really primed for that. Just go back to your eating. You don't have to try to ease into having three gentle meals or five gentle meals, you know what I mean? So that's great. There's another benefit of IF.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, actually, and similar with like when I get the thing, you confused it with a colonic. Sometimes if I go to a new place, they'll give you all the material where they're like, you know, ease into foods after I'm like, I'm good. Like, like, I am totally good. I literally, I don't ever need it. I think even if I did like, I mean, I haven't, but I think even if I did like a five day extended fast, I literally probably could just like feast after and be fine. I'm not saying to do that. Ease in if you need to.

Barry Conrad

We're not endorsing, but we're just saying if you're used to that, then you know what you do you.

Melanie Avalon

We're just being real. So yeah, but on the flip side of not eating, speaking of food, Barry, you have a restaurant to explore?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant to explore and let me tell you this is one that I hunted down because one of my favorite cuisines is Greek food and the restaurant is called The Bright Star. The Bright Star is actually based in Alabama and it's the oldest continuously operating restaurant in Alabama. It started as this 25-cafe catering to local workers and it's grown into this 330-seat iconic landmark. It survived the Great Depression, stayed open to serve the community through that time. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was featured in the 100 dishes to eat in Alabama before you die. Yes!

Melanie Avalon

We love that.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and it's a family run establishment, so it's got lots of history. I love that it wasn't featured in that hundred dishes to eat in Alabama for you because I'm all about that final meals and whatnot. So should we dive in? Let's do it. Should we look at the menu?

Melanie Avalon

And first of all, I have to say I love places with like I love finding restaurants with history that have been around for so long. That's why for the first time we did this, I picked one that was like one of the oldest restaurants in America. I just it's so cool to think I just love like history of places. It's cool to think about. So for listeners, every episode we like to feature a cool restaurant that we found and say what we would order from the menu in our breaking of our fast because fasting one of the awesome things about fasting is the feasting on the other side.

Barry Conrad

Let's go to the dinner section and then, so we'll go look at the dinner section after choosing all of our food, then there's wine and beer and cocktail. So I think after dessert, even we might have to even check that out a drink of some sort, you're down.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. Well, this menu is massive. So, and they have a quick menu. I wonder what that's. Okay. You know, it's a massive menu when they start with their quote quick menu and the quick menu is, is larger than most menus. Very confusing. I'm confused. I'm confused. So what would you get for appetizer? Oh my gosh. There's so many things.

Barry Conrad

So I'm going down right now. Let me have a look. I'm gonna go for the appetizer.

Melanie Avalon

We have appetizers and then we have appetizer as entree.

Barry Conrad

When I saw that initially, I thought of, it's not the same thing, but when you said, I'll have my mains for dessert. But one thing that jumped out of me straight away was remember how I said I hadn't had. There's one thing on here, Mel, that I've told you that I haven't had before and you were really shocked. Can you guess what it is? It begins with an S, it's two words.

Melanie Avalon

I mean is it shrimp related? No because you like shrimp. Yeah. What was the shellfish that you... Oh right, shrimp cocktail.

Barry Conrad

I've never had a shrimp cocktail listeners ever I love shrimp I eat it normally but I just assume cocktail is not really a thing that you typically get in Australia at restaurants so that's definitely going to be on my starter situation. What is spag spag spag it sounds like is that spaghetti because we called spat like a spag bowl like a spaghetti bowl here in Australia.

Melanie Avalon

Really? It looks like it's an animal.

Barry Conrad

a spag.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's definitely, okay, Chad GPT says it's a small particle aerosol generator. I don't think it's that. Oh yeah, you're right. They're saying spaghetti.

Barry Conrad

Slickest bag, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Hm, I've never heard it called that. Interesting.

Barry Conrad

Okay, so I'm going to tell you my status first. I have a few. I'm going to do the shrimp cocktail, the entree baked mushrooms, and the entree bowl gumbo because I love gumbo. I tried it in New Orleans and it was game changing. So I'd love to try a Greek styled version. So that's my starters plural. What would you have?

Melanie Avalon

I would probably, I would maybe have lobster and crab. Oh my goodness. I can have so many things. Lobster and crab and salmon and shrimp. What is snap throat? Oh, snapper throat. Maybe they seem to like snapper here. I think I would get lobster, crab, shrimp, salmon. Let's just get all of it.

Barry Conrad

All of it. I feel like when we find the listeners, when we finally eat together, we probably need two tables put together because we want to have like taste little bits of everything, I reckon.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'd be down. I would be down. What would you get as your main thing?

Barry Conrad

I would get the lobster and we get the fried chicken I love fried chicken with the passion and I love lobster as well so both of those for the manes for me.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like apparently snapper is their thing. I feel like I need to get snapper. I'm a little bit curious though about the mercury levels and snapper. So I probably wouldn't get the snapper. Now that I say that I probably look it up and see if I could find mercury levels in it. But from my memory, I don't think it's I don't think it's low.

Barry Conrad

I forgot to add that one of the signature dishes is the Greek style snapper.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So you might be missing out. I don't think, yeah, I would want it, but I don't think I would get it because of the mercury. So I probably get filet mignon. Yes.

Barry Conrad

Okay, and for dessert, are you going to get just the one or are you going to get another one?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, right. I think because I got so many appetizers that I can just have the filet. Oh, they have a veal steak. Hmm. I changed my mind. I'm like, I'm gonna get the veal steak.

Barry Conrad

Big, it's a big menu. I'm very impressed this place.

Melanie Avalon

I am too. And then they have a ton of dessert, what would you get for dessert?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I'm looking at it now.

Melanie Avalon

Can you get the birthday pie so I can look at it?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I've got a few choices. I'm going to I'm going to do the because you know, I love chocolate. It's my favorite. I'm going to do the whole chocolate pie, the peanut butter slice with vanilla ice cream on the side, and then the birthday cake. I'll order as well, but I'm not going to have all of it. I'll just have it for you to a look at and for me to like taste. How's that?

Melanie Avalon

perfect. And I would just watch and get some more, probably some more salmon, maybe probably whatever appetizer, like the best out of the salmon shrimp lobster, grab more of whatever I liked the most.

Barry Conrad

What about a drink? A beverage? What would you like to have? There's wine there, there's beer there, there's cocktails. I'm eyeing the cocktails, just FYI.

Melanie Avalon

I don't know I'd have to look I don't know if there's a wine I'd have to look up all the wines and there's a lot and I'm not sure if there are any that are organic low alcohol European so yeah what would you get?

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, you know, I love a margarita meal, so I'm going to go for their blueberry lemonade margarita. Something different. I usually get a spicy, but I'm all about trying different margaritas, so that's my choice.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Oh wait, actually they have lovey bunches. I think that's actually, wait, oh my goodness, wait a minute. Actually, they have one of my favorite organic wines. It's not European. It's, I'm assuming it's a typo on their website because it says love you bumches, but I think it's, if it's love you bunches, if that's supposed to be an N, that I love that wine. It doesn't say which a varietal it is, but they have a rosé that's organic, low alcohol. They also have a red. It's by Staltman Vineyards. Yeah, I really love them. They have really nice organic practices as well. And they're like light, low alcohol. Oh, I'm happy. Yay. Okay. Awesome.

Barry Conrad

I don't think we've had one in our very few restaurants we've done so far where you've pointed out like a wine that's organic, so that's pretty good. That's awesome. Thanks, Brightstar.

Melanie Avalon

I haven't looked at the wine list before this. Going forward, I will for sure. Well, a shout out again to the Bright Star Restaurant.

Barry Conrad

Shout out to Bart star when we're in Alabama next we'll have to check you out we have to make a list of all these restaurants by the way by the end of at the end of each year and sort of like okay when when we're going to be there let's just go through list and just do a tour of all the places.

Melanie Avalon

Sounds like a plan in my dream mind.

Barry Conrad

I don't think you're going to do that because you want to travel for a day.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you can do it. I'll watch. I'll come to one of them.

Barry Conrad

That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon

Shall we answer one more question? Let's do it. Jennifer would like to know, if you could only have one biohack in your life, what would it be?

Barry Conrad

Okay, that's that is a tough one. But for me, I would probably say real life therapy for me, because the benefits next level, you know, it boosts my collagen and production, which means smoother, firmer skin for me, which is great for what I do. So I'm not going to be mad at that. It's it's great for also even more importantly, recovery muscle recovery, because I work out a lot. I work out at least three times a week doing resistance training. So that's usually beneficial for me. So red light therapy has already helped. I've found I've got a device or two devices actually that I use already and that has made a difference. So use that on the daily. It also helps with inflammation and pain and even with hair growth. And you know, it's not just about looking good for me. It's about feeling great. And I definitely feel like even having that Melanie, how you say you have the ambient sort of red light on while you're working away that I feel the same way. Like I just have it like playing. It only goes for 10 minutes at a time though. So I have to like time it and then put it on again. But that's part of my daily. I love it. That's probably the one hack that I would choose so far. Watch the space is probably going to be more to come. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's a really good choice. That's definitely in my, my running. This question is so hard and I'm so glad I don't ever have to actually do this. Like just picking one would be so I would be so hard. So thinking about it, I'm obsessed with my cryotherapy, but if I could only have one, then I could, I could like not go to cryotherapy every day and just do like a cold shower. Am I allowed to like, like tweak this? So like, basically I could, I could get it, you know, without the actual biohack form, which is like going into a cold chamber, but I would really miss it. Red light, that's really up there. The one thing that I like blue light walking glasses at night, but it's like, okay, well then I could just force myself to not look at screens at night. But one of the ones where like I travel and I just, it's really hard to not have that is my daily infrared sauna session. It's so profound the way it makes me feel. And I feel you go in, it feels so good and relaxing. You sweat, you sweat out all these toxins and you just feel cleansed on an internal cellular level after it. And when I travel, I'm like, Oh, I needed sauna sessions. So bad. So, and that's not something where I can, I guess you could sweat by like working out of the gym, but this I don't, I'm not going to do that. So it would be my sunlight in infrared sauna and for listeners. So I have the solo unit, which is where you lay down inside of it and your head is outside of it. So you can like do your work while you're in it or read or something like that. But they also have cabin units as well. Literally one of my favorite things in my entire life. And if you tell them I sent you Melanie Avalon, they'll give you a major discount. So sunlight in infrared sauna is my choice.

Barry Conrad

I've only done one infrared sauna before and that was last year at like a like a health and fitness joint nearby and it was it was amazing like it's different to it's so different to a regular like steam sauna like because you do feel like it's from the inside out and you do feel refreshed and you're sweating you know your butt off as well so it's it's quite a unique experience so I can see why you would go for that I actually forgot about that that's that's a really good one

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Did you feel like you wanted to get one of your own integrated into your life daily?

Barry Conrad

I did actually feel that and then I just and I made a note to like do it again and I just haven't but I think it would definitely be really relaxing too because I like I actually like the feeling of being hot when it's for a purpose I don't like feeling hot when I'm just you know at home that's why I like being cold just like you but it's a really it's a really good feeling isn't it?

Melanie Avalon

Wait, that is so true. So I do not like being hot. The only time is when I'm in a sauna because it's like a controlled environment for a purpose. You're, you're not sweating over yourself because you're like, it's, I don't like, I don't like sweating with clothes on. It's like, I don't like textures of that.

Barry Conrad

In the gym, you do that, though, so...

Melanie Avalon

Right, but I don't go to the gym. You don't do the gym, yeah. I don't like it. I'm thinking about it right now. It feels so disgusting. I think I'm like texture, but I don't like the texture of certain things on my body. I'm very sensitive to that.

Barry Conrad

What do you mean? Like, give me an example.

Melanie Avalon

like clothing and like sweat and not about it.

Barry Conrad

Do you like black, you know those black dresses that you wear to these awesome letouts, does that count?

Melanie Avalon

So dresses, I don't like pants because I don't like all that constrictive clothing on my body. So dresses are great because they're very flowy. They're maybe tight at top, but you know, or maybe they could be, they're not as constrictive. I could not be a man and wear pants all the time.

Barry Conrad

You know, now that you mentioned, I've actually never seen you wear pants in like in any post ever. Like, that's such a good point. Like, never seen you wear jeans, pants. Do you wear jeans?

Melanie Avalon

I do not like jeans. The last time I wore jeans was, so every year I post my annual Christmas tree getting video. One of the times I went, I was like, I'm gonna dress up like rustic to get this Christmas tree. So I wore jeans.

Barry Conrad

I actually can't picture it now. I actually can't picture you in like jeans and boots. I mean, jeans. Yeah. That's so interesting. Wow. There you go.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you're missing out Barry with the dresses.

Barry Conrad

Well, I feel it could be too breezy for me. I mean, it's, yeah, let's not keep going down that path. I'm just going to pass now.

Melanie Avalon

So, at any point, that's why I love the sauna because it's like you sweat and like this sweat immediately is, you know, you're naked, it's like whisked away onto towels. And then you're like out, you shower, it's all contained.

Barry Conrad

How many showers do you have a day like two three.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's such a good question. It depends how many sauna sessions I do in a day. How many do you do in a day? Well, I always do at least one long one, but sometimes I do two, sometimes I do three. I like taking sauna naps. That's a hack. That's a good biohack. So you can sleep. Yeah, because then you literally sleep and get a cardiovascular workout at the same time. Like what?

Barry Conrad

So cool. I'm trying to picture this device. I need to... Is this... Is it like a chamber? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

It's like a dome. So again, so Sunline makes cabin units like the stereotypical cabin units, but they make this solo unit. It's like a dome that you slide into.

Barry Conrad

Wow, that sounds awesome, actually.

Melanie Avalon

So yeah, I like, I've like set it up with my hulk and trap. So I put it on top of a twin bed, a twin bed frame that I got on Amazon, like a metal twin bed frame. So it's on top of that. So then I can store stuff underneath it. I got a little arm thing that I attached to it that holds my iPhone above my head to do like work. And then I got a standup fan. So I put a fan on my face. So then I don't even feel that hot cause I have the fan on my face. And if you want to take a nap, if you're like really exhausted, you can take a nap in there and you wake up and it's like you worked out. That's.

Barry Conrad

wild. You never told me this before until now in terms of the whole setup. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's really cool. So to answer your question, I take a shower in the morning and then however many sauna sessions, I take a shower after every one of those. So the most hours I take would be four, I guess, in a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I love showers.

Melanie Avalon

Do you end with a cold blast?

Barry Conrad

You know what? I've definitely started introducing that more because it's kind of my way of doing the cryotherapy, but it's not really. It's just more cold water therapy. Because cryo, from what I understand, is freezing. Freezing, freezing, freezing. But it definitely refreshes me doing it. I had a cold water shower today before doing the podcast after the gym. It wakes you up. Yeah. Didn't you hear it? I'm peppy. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

So awesome. Okay. Well, Jennifer, thank you for the question and thank you everybody else for your questions. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ipodcast.com and can go to ipodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get all of the stuff that we like at ipodcast.com slash stuff we like. Definitely follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is okay. Ready? Barry underscore Conrad, right? You got it. Yes. And on Instagram, our show is IF Podcast. So yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

I hope you all have an awesome day and something really great to break your fast and we'll talk to you next time.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

See you later!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Dec 29

Episode 402: Special Guest Mark Sisson, Born To Walk, Why You Should Stop Running, Peluva Barefoot Shoes, The Myth of Marathons, Fasting Weight Loss Benefits, The Problems With Shoes, How To Exercise, And More!

Welcome to Episode 402 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SPECIAL GUEST MARK SISSON

Mark Sisson is widely regarded as the founding father of the ancestral health movement. His number-one-ranked blog and Primal Health Coach Institute have paved the way for primal enthusiasts to take personal responsibility for their health. Known as a market-disrupting, innovative entrepreneur, Mark’s Primal Kitchen enterprise introduced healthy condiments to the marketplace for the first time, and was acquired by Kraft-Heinz in 2018. As one of the earliest proponents of barefoot-inspired living, Mark proceeded to launch Peluva five-toe minimalist footwear company (with his son Kyle) in 2021, and is now busy “changing the way the world walks.”

Mark, 71, has a BA in biology from Williams College and is a former world-class endurance athlete, with a 2:18 marathon and a fourth-place finish in the Hawaii Ironman World Triathlon Championships to his credit. Mark lives in Miami Beach, Florida, where enjoys Ultimate Frisbee, standup paddling, fat-tire beach bike rides, and a walking-oriented lifestyle.

Website | IG | Book: Born To Walk

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

PELUVA: Get 10% off with code IFPODCAST at peluva.com/ifpodcast.

IHERB: iHerb is your easy, affordable, one-stop shop for wellness products across supplements, sports nutrition, groceries, beauty, baby, pets, and more! With over 50,000 products available, iHerb uses NO third-party sellers and ensures that what’s inside every bottle is tested and verified for quality. Plus, their climate-controlled shipping keeps everything fresh! Get 22% off your first order with code IFPODCAST at iherb.com/shop/ifpodcast. Existing customers get 15% off!

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LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 402 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. Oh, my goodness. I am so excited about today's interview. We have a very, very special guest on today's show. It is a legend. He almost needs no introduction, but I will give him an introduction anyways. And he has a new book coming out, which honestly was a complete paradigm shift for me personally, and I think is going to affect so many lives. So I am here with Mark Sisson. Friends, I know you know who Mark Sisson is, but he is a legend in the primal sphere world. So he actually came up with the company, the Primal Kitchen Enterprise, which was acquired by Kraft Heinz, but people are probably pretty familiar with those products. He's a multiple New York Times bestselling author, the Primal Blueprint, Two Meals a Day that I had him on recently, or a while ago for Primal Endurance, so many incredible different books. And his newest book is called Born to Walk, the Broken Promises of the Running Boom and How to Slow Down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time. And okay, friends. So this book, I was really excited to read just based on the title alone. My personal history with running and listeners might have gathered this over the many years of me doing this show. But I am, I am not a runner. It's never really appealed to me. It doesn't make me feel good. And I always sort of felt a little guilty about that, especially when I would, you know, I see people who are really into running, which I think is amazing. Well, I guess we can talk about that. I think it's amazing if it makes people feel good, and it has a healthy place in their life. So I've always admired and respected that I've been really intrigued by things like people doing marathons. And at the same time, I was always a little bit suspicious about the health effects of things like marathons. All of that said, I also was a little bit aware of the barefoot movement and the minimalist shoe movement, but I really had no idea about the actual reasoning or science behind that. So friends, born to walk is going to completely answer all of your questions and give you a complete paradigm shift with all of this.

Melanie Avalon

Should you actually be running? We're going to talk about that. So Mark, thank you for all that you're doing and thank you so much for being here.

Mark Sisson

Thanks for having me, Melanie. What an introduction. I love it. So let's get into it.

Melanie Avalon

Literally, I've been wanting and needing to read your books since I'm having flashbacks now to like, what was it like when they would make us run the mile when you were in elementary school? I honestly think that was my least favorite day of school every single year. It just felt wrong doing it for me, even though ironically, I was one of the fastest students. But in any case, enough about me, you, your background with running. So you used to be a runner. Could you tell listeners a little bit about your background? Also, I am dying to know when was the last time you ran a mile?

Mark Sisson

Well, so, yeah, I was a runner. I was one of those people who gravitated toward running in the late 1960s, early 70s. Not because it was a fad, but because it was the only sport available to me. I was a skinny, scrawny kid, too small for basketball or football or baseball or hockey. I grew up in Maine. I actually wound up jogging to and from school every day for years just as a way to get home before the bus could ever get me there. So it was a form of transportation early on. When I was in high school, as a freshman, I went out for the track team, and I found myself able to win both the mile and the two-mile event in most of the track meets I entered as a result of my lifestyle, which was running to and from school, like some Rift Valley East African story you might hear. Over the years, I developed this ability. I was a runner. I was somebody, one of the very few, it turns out, genetically gifted to be able to handle that amount of mileage in minimalist shoes. Because in those days, in the late 60s and early 70s, there were no cushioned running shoes. They were just Chuck Taylors. And eventually, there was a Japanese shoe called the Onitsuka Tiger, which was a very minimalist shoe. It had a quarter-inch thick sole, and so you felt the ground every time your foot landed. There was no cushioning. There was no, you know, rear foot motion control, mid-foot stabilizers, or any of the stuff that they claimed to be beneficial in today's running shoes. So I was a runner, and I was one of many runners in the 70s who self-selected to be runners. And I turned into a pretty decent marathoner. I finished fifth in the U.S. National Championships in 1980. I went on to compete in the Ironman Triathlon. But eventually, I had to retire because of injuries. I was injured largely as a result of the excess mileage I was doing, largely as a result of the shoes that I was wearing. These cushioned, eventually, I started wearing these big thick cushioned shoes that Nike was developing. Those caused problems. And I got to the point where I could no longer train at an elite level, and I turned my attention to other things in life, like figuring out how everyone could be strong and lean and fit with the least amount of pain and suffering and sacrifice and all of the negative words that we use to describe what we think it takes to become fit. And that's what started me down this path of the Primal Blueprint and Primal Kitchen and writing books, you know, across the sphere of health and wellness. But I was, and to answer your question, I haven't run a mile in 30 years. And it was a recognition that humans are not really born to run, we are born to walk. And so much of my strategy, my anti-aging strategy, my fitness strategy, certainly my health strategy over the past few decades has focused on lots of vigorous, robust walking, some time spent in the gym lifting weights, a little bit of time sprinting once in a while, and I will differentiate the concept of sprinting from regular running.

Mark Sisson

Running is a, you know, we're certainly born to be able to run, Melanie, but we're not born to run metronomically day in and day out at an eight or a nine or a 10 minute per mile pace over a lifetime. The book sort of was born out of this recognition that there are so many frustrated people who took on running because they heard it was the best way to improve cardiovascular health or the best way to live longer or the best way to lose weight. And it's not any of those, it's a horrible way to lose weight. There are 50 different ways, better ways to achieve cardiovascular fitness without the injury tendency that runners get. And there's a hundred different activities that are much more fun. And your experience, which was one of, I think, a very common one, which was, gosh, I think I should be running because people around me are running and there's all sorts of hype surrounding running and how it's supposed to be this great activity. And yet you found yourself kind of second guessing it every time you went out the door. And I, you know, I think a lot of people share this feeling like, okay, I'll do it. If I have to struggle and I have to suffer, I'll do it, but I don't really want to do it. There are things I'd rather do. And I'm here to give everybody permission to walk again. Walking is the quintessential human movement. It's what everybody should be doing as much as possible, as often as possible. Anybody can do it from the least healthy, most pain-ridden person right up into an elite athlete. Everybody can walk and should walk.

Melanie Avalon

I was actually reflecting on walking yesterday because I was flying back from Vegas, so I was sitting for four and a half hours on a plane and then I was in the airport and I was just walking through the terminal and I was like walking feels so good. It was just like this intuitive moment where I was like it is doing so much good for my body right now. So question about our evolution and the genetics and all the things because, and you mentioned this a second ago, but so we do have adaptations for running and you talked about this in the book. So we have like an upright stature ability. We have long limbs, narrow pelvis, slender frame, efficient thermoregulatory potential, lots of other things, powerful glutes, short toes. So clearly evolution takes a long time to happen and presumably you have to be doing a lot for us to evolve certain features. So like you said, we did evolve with the ability to run. Why were we not doing it more than it sounds like we were doing it? And then for people like you who you said you did have this genetic tendency to run. So is there a certain subtype of humans who were running more evolutionarily?

Mark Sisson

Yeah, so that's a great question. So a lot of the hype around running and humans being, quote, born to run, there was a book came out in 2010 by Chris McDougall that posited that humans are born to run and described persistence hunters in the early days of Africa, these early humans who would track a beast for an hour or two hours or three hours and outlast the beast in the heat of the desert and then be able to walk up and stick a spear in them at the end of this long tracking expedition. But bear in mind, number one, those individuals weren't running seven minute miles for three hours. They were walking and hiding and crouching and jogging a little bit and tracking and sprinting and combining all these methods that require a large human brain and opposable thumbs to make the tools to create the spears to be able to do this. So that they could kill a beast and have food for a couple of days. They didn't do this every day. In fact, it was antithetical to life until about a hundred years ago that you would go out and run mileage every single day for no reason whatsoever. These were individual pre-humans and early humans who by virtue of their lifestyle, which comprised walking a lot. But no chairs, no couches, no sofas, no TVs, they walked a lot. And that's what gave them the capacity between the walking and the lifting of heavy things. They carried stones, they carried logs, they built things, they climbed up things to look out and see what was going on. They carried babies, they lugged carcasses back to camp. They were always lifting heavy things and they sprinted once in a while. Now when they sprinted, it was typically a life or death situation. It was like, oh my God, there's something trying to kill me. I better run away. That's so that this combination of lifestyle where there was a lot of low level activity, a lot of walking around like literally minute by minute, day by day, that kept an aerobic capacity. Then lifting heavy things, which was the compliment today is go to the gym and lift weights twice a week and sprinting once in a while, not every day, but once in a while they had to ramp their effort up to 100% of max to continue to live and pass the genes along to the next generation. So the idea that we're persistence hunters has been sort of glorified. And I think the anthropological evidence has been misconstrued to suggest that we are born to run. We're born to walk clearly and we're born to sprint a little bit, but we're born to be able to run, but not run metronomically day in and day out and certainly not given the shape of 75% of this country, which is overweight. Now my own genetic capabilities. So one of the things I say in the book is that probably only five or 2% of the population is even genetically capable of being able to run day in and day out as a form of, quote, recreation, end quote. But until 100 years ago, no one would have chosen to do that. Even the fittest and skinniest humans would not have said, oh, I'm just gonna go run 10 miles for no reason whatsoever because I feel like it's gonna make me healthy.

Mark Sisson

It was the exact opposite. Expending that amount of energy in a world where energy food was scarce was completely antithetical to health and to survival. So this idea that we can use running as a means of raising our heart rate and try to offset the lifestyle that we've created for ourselves, which has a lot of leisure time, a lot of sitting in chairs at desks, sitting on couches, watching TV, doing all these things that we tend to do, I guess it served a purpose in getting people off the couches. But over the past 50 years, what's happened is, and I'll tell you, it's just a really interesting, perfect storm of events that happened to create this running boom in the first place. As I said, in the 1970s, the only people who ran were runners, were people who were, like me, genetically gifted, skinny, ectomorphs, great lungs, a propensity to manage discomfort well, because running is managing discomfort. and they're basically masochists, it was almost always in pursuit of some goal like winning a race. So, up until the mid-70s, the only runners were people who were runners. The only people who ran or trained or jogged were people who were actually trying to race and attract meat or had selected that as their sport. Now, this is where it gets interesting. In the early 70s, Bill Bowerman, who's the coach of the Oregon Track Club and Olympic trials team coach, realizes that many of the skinny American runners who are trying to compete on the world scene are getting injured because the shoes they're wearing are not built for 80 or 90 miles a week of training, and that was what it was determined you needed to do in order to compete on the world scene. So, Bill Bowerman and Phil Knight, who eventually founded Nike, became the CEO of Nike, created a specific, very thick, sold shoe that would allow skinny runners with good form to be able to run more miles in their training so that they could compete on the world circuit. Okay, that's point number one. Point number two is around that time, Bill Bowerman had gone to New Zealand. He had seen that the fit people in New Zealand were doing this thing they were calling jogging. They were going out and running miles for no particular purpose. So, Bowerman wrote a book called Jogging. Then in 1968, Ken Cooper revolutionized the concept of cardiovascular health by writing a book called Aerobics, and the book Aerobics, which has sold, I think, 30 million copies to date, it posited that the more of an activity that you did that raised your heart rate, the better it would be for your heart's strength and the longer you would live. And so, people started thinking, okay, I'm going to start doing this aerobic activity, and the easiest way to do this was running. So now, along comes, now we have the thick shoes, which are enabling people to run and not have their feet tell them that's way too many miles, because these thick cushioned shoes are absorbing some of the shock.

Mark Sisson

We've got books, and eventually Jim Ficks writes a book called The Book of Running, and he popularizes running. And the next thing you know, Frank Shorter wins a gold medal in Munich. Bill Rogers sets an American record in the Boston Marathon, and now everybody's excited about running as this new health pursuit. And remember, the 70s and into the late 70s and early 80s was the me decade. It came after the counterculture of the 60s. It was now the me decade. It's all about me. It's all about trying to self-help and all the things that accompany that. So this cultural zeitgeist pushed everybody into running. But even in the 80s, we still didn't have the rates of obesity and overweight that we do today. So even in the 80s, more people started running. These new shoes came on the scene. They started to allow people to put in more miles. It seemed like a good idea. I was one of them. It seemed like a good idea to me. I was still racing at a high level. But more and more people would started taking up this nascent sport in the interest of losing weight, improving cardiovascular health, some meditative aspects that were discussed. They were all manner of purported health benefits to doing this. And yet, the number of running injuries increased. Why did it increase? Because people were running with bad form, and they were using these cushioned shoes to enable their bad form. When you run barefoot, Melanie, when you run down the sidewalk barefoot, I don't care how untrained you are, how overweight you are, your feet automatically tell your entire kinetic chain exactly how to absorb the shock. And when you're running barefoot, you don't heel strike. If you're running barefoot, you're running with a well-defined midfoot gait and doesn't last very long because you're not trained to do it, but if you were to take shoes off any untrained person, have them run down the sidewalk, they would run with pretty good form, barefoot. Put some shoes on those people and all of a sudden you see the heel striking, the slapping of the pavement, the plotting, the noise and that's where you start to get the injuries. So running, even to this day, now we fast forward to today where we have these thick, thick, thick, cushioned, pillowy running shoes, there's no decrease in the amount of running injuries. 50% of everyone who calls themselves a runner is injured every year. And at any one point in time, 25% of all runners are injured. It's a worse injury record than ENFL. So when we're talking about injuries, we're talking about bone bruises, we're talking about Achilles tendon issues, we're talking about plantar fasciitis, we're talking about chondromalacia of the knees, we're talking about tendonitis throughout the hips. All of these are almost like, I would say almost all if not all, are related to the shoes they're wearing, the bad form and the tendency to overdo it because the mind goes, I'm a runner, I have to get out and do my three miles or my five miles or my six miles.

Mark Sisson

So now we have the spate of injuries. Then we also can talk about running as a weight loss strategy. It's horrible. Most, if you go to a marathon, which is the quintessential bucket list item for a lot of people, and you look at a marathon like Los Angeles or Chicago or Boston, you see 40 or 50,000 people lined up in the starting line, 80% of them are overweight. I got a question for you. If you claim to be a marathoner and you've been training for this 26.2 mile event, why are you overweight? Why are you still overweight? Because the type of training you're undergoing is causing your body to burn mostly sugar and hold on to its fat stores so that when you finish a workout, your brain goes, we have to eat. We don't know how to burn fat. We've gone out and we've trained too hard for the fitness level that we're at. And now the brain says we have to compensate by overeating calories. And so somebody might go out and run seven miles and burn off 750 calories in that workout. But the body and the brain immediately goes, oh, we're gonna make up for that. We're gonna consume 800 calories because if this fool's gonna do it again tomorrow, we have to be ready. So over time, you will see people who have been running for a long time and still have the same 10 or 30 pounds to lose. I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? So those are two examples. I've got many more in the book of all of the reasons that running has a spate of broken promises, unfulfilled expectations, left people feeling guilty because they tried it, they thought they could do it, they didn't have what it took, and they moped away thinking they'd failed when in fact, if they had engaged in a well-thought-out robust walking program, they would have lost the weight, they would have felt better about themselves, their mood would have been elevated, their digestion would have improved, their mental clarity would be better. I mean, all of the things that we sought from a running program and didn't get were always available from a well-thought running program that certainly combined two days a week in the gym lifting weights and a little bit of sprinting.

Melanie Avalon

So in the book you go through the entire history of running like you touched on there and there's also the myth of the of the marathon.

Mark Sisson

Oh, that's a great one. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Can you tell listeners a little bit about that?

Mark Sisson

You know, this is the, again, it's the metric a lot of people use. It's the bucket list item. There are people who, you know, have their marathon finisher medals, hanging at their desk at work. They're so proud of the achievement. And they should be it's an amazing achievement. But it was fabricated out of thin air. So the original story, as was told, inappropriately by the industry in the late in the late 70s, early 70s, was that there's this guy Fadipides, and he was a hemorrhodromae, which was a messenger for the army. And when Athens, you know, there was a there was a the battle of Athens had happened in marathon. And he had to run to Sparta to announce, well, the original story was that he, they had this huge battle. And after fighting for three days, he ran to Athens, 25 miles to Athens, and collapsed in the middle of the town square after saying, Rejoice, rejoice, we've won. And so the original story was this guy ran, he fought for three days, he, he ran 25 miles, he collapsed in the square. And, and so that was the, that was the the heroics of the original story of Fadipides. The problem was that was taken from a poem by Robert Browning, who used a tremendous amount of poetic license to describe this hero and create a myth around him. The fact is that this guy ran from the battlefield, 103 miles to ask for assistance, the town that he was at was having a that he ran into to ask for assistance was having some feast and they said, Well, we we can't go we can't we can't help you because we're in the middle of a festival. And we have to, you know, we have to wait three days, and it's going to take us then four days to get there. So he has to take this guy, Fadipides has to take a nap and run all the way back to the battlefield to announce to the generals, yeah, these guys can't show up, they can't, they're not going to help us. So we're on our own. Now, they, they wound up winning the battle, but the guy ran 306 miles in 36 hours. That's the real history of Fadipides. So if you really want to honor this guy, you would you would not be running 26.2 miles, you'd be running 306 miles. But then it gets it gets a little even weirder. So because of the original myth, the original Olympic Games in 1996 Olympic Games in Greece said, we should have a marathon run. And so they had a 26.2 mile, sorry, a 25 mile marathon run. And that was that was the marathon distance, until the Olympics was held in London a few years later, and they wanted the event to finish in front of Windsor Castle. And in order to do that, they had to extend the race to 26.2 miles. So that's how the that's how the distance came to be 26.2 is because a queen wanted to see the finish, not because of the distance from from the planes of marathon to Athens, and not because of anything that this heroic guy Fadipides did. The point being that the entire distance is just a fabrication. It's it's drawn out of thin air, based on a poem by a 19th century poet, who wanted to honor this guy with his poetry. And yet, millions of people every year, pay their 300 bucks to enter this race, beat themselves up horribly.

Mark Sisson

And then, you know, take their finishers medal because they're they think they're honoring this this feat by this one guy. Anyway, this, we have a lot of these stories in the book about how, how the assumptions about what went before us created this running boom, that really ultimately was based on fabrications. And I think, you know, later on, again, that the running shoe industry, marketing these thick, sold, cushioned running shoes as being better for you, may be the worst thing that happened to running because more injuries as a result of these bad shoes, encouraging bad form. So anyway, we're back to walking is the quintessential human movement is the best thing we can do. It's the cornerstone of anybody's longevity program, for sure. I mean, even if you look at my friend, Dan Buettner, who I don't know if you know, Dan, but he's the author of The Blue Zones. Dan's my downstairs neighbor in my building.

Melanie Avalon

Oh really? What a building to live in.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, and Dan and I talk, you know, we talk a lot about it. But, you know, we argue over things like meat versus, you know, beans at the as the center piece of the diet. But we certainly agree that walking and outdoor activity is that is this probably the single greatest determinant of people living to 100 years old. So if you're thinking about longevity, walking is a far better choice than running. We have a whole chapter in the book about how really good runners tend to get into cardiovascular problems after decades of running as a result of running too hard, too long, too far, you know, too often and raising their heart rate too much. So running is not even a great longevity strategy for most people. And again, when I talk about most people, I'm saying there are some people like me and even I was on the cusp of being genetically appropriate for running. Most of your elite runners. Look, here's the thing, running is catabolic running tears muscle tissue down. That's why even in the 10,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, even in the endurance persistence hunting group, they recognize that it was catabolic that it would that it would tear you down and you could only do it once in a while in search of sustenance of food, a protein that would build you back up. So the idea that early humans would go out and, you know, we killed an animal yesterday. Our bellies are full. I know let's go out and run six miles. No, they never would have done that.

Melanie Avalon

It's really crazy hearing that marathon story. It's crazy just as a general theme in life, how many things we do today are based on really arbitrary, like random things. And it just becomes so important. And if we look back to the origin, it's not what we thought. And I just feel like I like learn more about that every day. We just was so many things in life. So yeah, no, that's completely crazy.

Mark Sisson

Well you and I have bumped up against this in the community that we're in right now, in the diet and nutrition community. Go back to the 1980s when fat was the enemy, eating fat made you fat, and that the best possible meal you could eat was boneless, skinless chicken breast. You know, and all of a sudden cut to today when, nah, I need the skin on the chicken because I want the collagen, I need the fat on the meat, I need, you know, it's like but we assumed that fat made you fat and that assumption carried for 20 years even though there was no basis at all in fact on that. So you're right, so many of our cultural norms are based on myths, it's bizarre.

Melanie Avalon

Here's one for you, not related at all to health and wellness, but do you know why we have margins on paper? This blew my mind.

Mark Sisson

to be able to make notes. Not why.

Melanie Avalon

No. So like back in the day, living conditions were so horrible, it was completely normal to just have rats in your house. So rats would like chew at people's paper at night and like take away the words. So they started putting margins on paper so you could allow space for the rats to chew the paper.

Mark Sisson

That's pretty interesting. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. But it makes total sense, yeah. Now it meant you connect the dots in reverse, right?

Melanie Avalon

You know, I've never looked at paper the same way again. Something else interesting about, just speaking about this evolution of humans, I was really interested to learn in the book that going back to when we were hunter-gatherers and you talk about the Hadza tribe that are still around today, apparently they burn the same amount of energy as like sedentary people do here. And it's because we burn, you talk about this like inflammatory energy that people who are sedentary burn. Yeah, so what's happening with that?

Mark Sisson

Well, there's a couple of things happening with that. Number one, the Hadza spend a lot of their time not doing much, right? Low level activity. When I say not doing much, they're still walking around, but they're resting and sitting and walking. And then they do their persistence hunt, but they don't do the hunt every day, right? So their average energy output isn't that much greater than an athlete training today or a sedentary person today. Meanwhile, and we know this, you and I know this from the intermittent fasting community, from the metabolic flexibility community, that when you eat appropriately, you become more metabolically flexible, you become metabolically efficient, and you don't need as many calories to maintain muscle mass, build muscle mass, never get sick, have all the energy you need all the time, and most importantly, not be hungry. So the converse of that is the people around us who go through life with this idea that I'm gonna see how much food I can eat and not gain weight. What's the most amount of food I can eat and not gain weight? And so people tend to overeat in a way that their bodies respond to in one of two ways. Either they eventually gain weight, or in many cases, the body says, I'm not prepared to store this as fat, but I don't wanna, this is too much energy, and so I'm just gonna rev higher all day long. I'm going to increase the metabolism, whether it's the thermic-effective food, or whether it's just increasing basal metabolic rate to burn off the excess calories that I'm taking in. And so these people can take in 3,500 or 4,000 calories a day, maintain body weight for a while, not be that active. And it's pretty much on the equivalent of what the Hadza would eat in a very otherwise active day. Humans do have sort of a shared baseline set point, but they can manipulate it somewhat with exercise. But what we see with even elite athletes is that there's this compensatory mechanism where, yes, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna run for two hours, and in those two hours, I'm gonna burn 2,000 extra calories, but then I'm gonna get home, and I'm not gonna do much for the rest of the day. So my body's gonna cut back on its energy expenditure so that at the end of the day, I haven't really burned that many more calories than a sedentary person, which is another reason why this concept of weight loss, running for weight loss, doesn't really work, because, as I said, you go out, you burn the calories, and typically the calories you burn as a non-elite runner, as an avid jogger or a person who just incorporates running into their lifestyle, you go out and you burn calories, but most of them are sugar calories, most of them are glycogen stored in your muscles. And so you get home, and not only do you tend to overcompensate by overeating and consuming carbs, you actually carbolode on a regular basis as a result of that, but then you compensate throughout the rest of the day by doing less.

Mark Sisson

Maybe you choose not to go outside and rake the leaves, or you choose to not walk your dog the mile that you normally walk the dog, but now you walk them down to the mailbox and back. Or your kids say, hey, dad, let's go out and throw the football, and you go, eh, not right now, I gotta rest up for tomorrow's run. So there's all these compensatory mechanisms that, in many cases, they're not even conscious decisions, they're unconscious choices that we find ourselves making that ultimately wind up having us expending really, at the end of the day, no more energy than the average couch potato might expend.

Melanie Avalon

It's so crazy. And I think it really speaks to the power of the input side of things. So what you're eating, which especially I think we see that effect with intermittent fasting, how powerful it is compared to the trying to burn off the calories with exercise and things like that. And also even with like, GLP ones, regardless of the controversy around them, I think they do show one thing they show that people eating less seems to be effective for weight loss.

Mark Sisson

Go figure, right? Yeah, but I think that's the greatest thing I learned from initially from Primal Blueprint and then from Keto and now from Accommodation of Keto and IF is that I don't need that much in the way of energy. Like I surprise myself on how robust I am and how much muscle mass I maintain on 30 or 40% fewer calories than I consumed even as recently as 15 years ago. And it's just a testament to a couple of things. Number one, the quality of food you eat, the quality of the calories, the amount of protein you take in, but also the ability of your body to access stored body fat on a regular basis without skipping a beat, not noticing that you're hungry or hangry. I mean, that's one of the most magical feelings there is, is to not be tethered to hunger, appetite and cravings. It is the best. It is, yeah, it is the best. And I wish I could give that to people. That's the superpower I wish I could give to people because it's so freeing, yeah. And, and, and, so now let's tie that in with walking. So walking is an energy efficient exercise. It is 100% fat burning for almost everybody unless you walk so fast with a weight vest on uphill that you, you know, you start burning glycogen. But anybody who goes out for a walk is burning mostly fat. And in the book, we give a number of metrics on how to determine what your fat max heart rate is. Like what's the heart rate? The maximum heart rate below which you are burning 90% of your calories are coming from your stored body fat. And, and, and in that regard, one of the reasons that walking works so well for people trying to lose weight is whenever you do encounter a hunger episode rather than walk to the refrigerator to grab a snack, go outside and walk 15 minutes and feel your body releasing its adipose tissue and combusting it as fuel. And you will come back from that walk a little bit more energized and less hungry. So it's an amazing hack, if you will, I hate that word but it's amazing hack for, for hunger.

Melanie Avalon

I have a two-part intuition question related to this. So one relates to this and one relates to the shoes, but they're both intuition. So you do talk extensively in the book about this Fat Max concept, and listeners definitely get the book. There's so much information in it that we're not even remotely touching on, but there's a lot of ways to determine your level and measuring it, and there's all these things. And so my question is, because you do say in the book that even you emphasize the importance of really monitoring that number so that you don't go above it in your training, and you say that even going above it like a little bit can undo the benefits you were looking for, I think. I might be paraphrasing a little bit. But so my question is, how intuitive, if we want to embrace this type of movement that will best burn fat, and we are going a little bit faster than walking, because I'm assuming walking will keep us in the okay zone, how intuitive can we be with that? Do we actually really need to monitor everything, or can we be intuitive?

Mark Sisson

Great question. So one example would be, if you're jogging, if you think that you like to run, you want to run, you're defending your right to run, and you want to go out once in a while and run, and you want to stay within that fat max fat burning zone, one way to do it is to go with a friend and carry on a conversation. And as long as you can carry on a conversation, you're probably at or below fat max. Once you are huffing and puffing and unable to carry on a conversation, that's an indication that your oxygen consumption has increased, and now you're into burning glycogen and getting away from the fat burning zone. Now, I don't want to tell people that you've completely negated all of the benefits of a workout. What I'm saying is it compromises that training effort at staying in the fat burning zone. It doesn't negate, it doesn't destroy it doesn't oh my god, I screwed up and now I have to go back to square one. No, it's just the more time you can spend at that in a particular workout staying at or below that fat max heart rate, chalk that whole workout up, or that long walk or whatever it is to okay, today I just worked on fat burning, then when you go do your high intensity stuff, which I do recommend, then you can go all out. And you'll that now that's the time where you can really like hit it hard and nail it. The problem with almost every runner and I was one of the worst. And if we first talked about this in primal endurance, I don't know if you read that book, Melanie, but that came out a bunch of years ago, a while ago, like when it came out. And the problem is that people wind up training in what we call the black hole of training or the no man's land, where their heart rate is is too high to be promoting aerobic capacity, capillary perfusion, fat mobilization and fat burning too high for that, but too low to be really focusing on VO two max and power and strength and speed. So all you're doing is practicing hurting. And so, and it just makes me want to cry. Because I see these people who are out there huffing and puffing every single day. And they never get better. They never improve. And you'd say, well, you know, at some point, you stop improving. Well, look, if you're, if you're that slower runner, two things are going on. Number one, you better improve. Because theoretically, you're doing this because you want to get better at your life, you want to run faster times in your 10 k's, your marathons. And if your whole life is based around, well, I do, and I hear this a lot, I do six marathons a year, I'm like, okay, that's interesting. You know, what, what's your personal best? Well, I've run 345, 344, 342, 346. And my thought process is, first of all, I was a career runner, I ran 100 miles a week for seven years, I've never run that long in my life, I never spent that much time running in my life. So God bless you for hurting that much. And number two, if you're not getting better, something isn't working in your program, why would you go repeat, no offense, a bad performance over and over again, just what to collect more hardware? I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

Mark Sisson

And in the meantime, you're getting injured, injured, you're courting injury, you're not losing the the body fat you wanted to lose. In fact, what happens with a lot of these types of runners is they, they shift their body mass from they decrease their, their muscle mass, and they increase their fat, even though their weight stays the same, they become what we call skinny fat. Running is catabolic running tears you up. There's no question about it. So every workout you do running, running tears you up. Yeah. Now you go to the gym and you can build some of that weight back. But walking is anabolic walking is at the very least anti catabolic walking does not tear you down, it builds you up. So you'll even see the best bodybuilders in the world who are very careful about not losing a single bit of muscle like this, they work so hard to put their muscle on. They'll walk after a workout to burn fat, they won't run. No way they won't run, but they will walk after workout because they know that it's not catabolic. It is, it's at the very least anabolic at the very least it's preserving muscle tissue while they're burning fat.

Melanie Avalon

And to that point of people putting themselves into this seemingly unnecessary suffering, we do know there's this endorphin high and you talk about the different neurotransmitters in the book and it reminds me of the work of, I don't know if you know Dr. Loretta Bruning, but she's done a lot of work and I've had her on the show a few times about the different neurotransmitters and why we have them and like, but basically their beneficial role like serotonin and dopamine oxytocin. She doesn't even talk about endorphins in her books because she emphasizes that the point of them is they're in a response to like pain and a problem. So they're not something we should be like seeking to increase.

Mark Sisson

So, you know, how did we animals in general evolve endorphin? Well it's probably to maintain a calm, peaceful attitude in the face of death or in the face of a life or death moment. So you know, you've tracked a beast through the heat of the desert all day for three and a half hours and you failed to kill the beast, endorphins. Rather than lie down and wallow and die, the endorphins give you a little bit of sense of hope, a little bit of peace and calm, like okay, you know, try again tomorrow. Endorphins are released when, I hate to say it, but you see these nature shows where the lion is eating the zebra while the zebra is still alive, endorphins. That's what endorphins are keeping the zebra from, you know, eventually the zebra says, alright, it's over, I'm going to die a peaceful death, endorphins. So the seeking of these endorphins is a, again, a false promise. It's like trying to recreate, chasing the high as they say, right? So the first couple of times it's like, oh my God, it felt so good after the run and eventually you chase that high and the next thing you know is I was chasing the high and I got injured because I, I mean this is, this is, I didn't talk about it in the book, but this is what happened to me at the end of my running career. I was so high on endorphins. I had five days in a row in 1980 when I ran 20 miles each day and each day I ran 20 miles faster than a previous day and I was so in the zone and so high and I wasn't recognizing that I was in a life or death situation and I wound up getting injured to the point I got hip tendonitis that never, it didn't resolve until probably 30 years later and that was the end of my, my, my elite running career. Now, when I say elite running career, I could, I could still run really well as a human being, but I couldn't participate at a world-class level anymore and I couldn't train that hard because of what I'd done to myself and part of it was a result of the, not just the endorphins, but it was the injury that I got from the shoes that were, here's a story for you. I'll take a side step here and say, when I first got my thick cushioned running shoes, they felt great. I ran a lot in them and I got severe chondromalacia, severe knee pains and I sat my senior year of college out cross-country season, walked around campus with a cane until I got orthotics. I was a miracle cure with orthotics, okay, so I get these orthotics and now the orthotics are raising my arches up enough that the overpronation that I was experiencing from the shoes without the arches, that was prevented and so I ran for a few more years with orthotics until my hip gave out because what had happened was the cushioning and the lack of proprioception and input to the bottom of my feet,

Mark Sisson

the initial problem went all the way up to my knees. I fixed that by putting a wedge in my shoes and then when I wedge my shoes and it bypassed my knees, it went up to the hip and this is what we see and this is part of the, one of the chapters has to do with footwear and why we get injured and why modern running footwear is so bad for people and it's definitely, and it's even bad for people who are walking and we'll talk about that. Your foot needs to feel the ground, it needs, the foot needs to sense the texture and the tilt of the ground underneath in order to inform the brain of exactly how to orchestrate the kinetic chain from the bottoms of the feet to the point where the brain now says, okay, here's how much we scrunch the arch around that rock or here's how much we bend the toes over that stick we're walking on. Here's how much we roll the ankle out a little bit to take pressure off the knees from having to bend sideways. Here's how much we bend the knee and it's normal, Sagittario plane forward and back. Here's how much we rotate the hip to absorb the shock. Here's how deep we bend the knee in order to absorb the shock of this jump. All of this information comes from bare feet, from these perfectly formed organs that we have at the end of our legs, these feet that are our main contact with the universe. They're our main contact with the ground, with the universe and our feet want to feel everything underneath in order to orchestrate this perfect kinetic chain. You put thick cushioned stiff sole shoes that enclose the feet and scrunch the big toe against all the other toes instead of allowing it to splay outward which is what it really wants to do and the next thing you know you you you bypass all that important information and the brain has to guess okay I guess I bend the knee sideways I don't know I guess I you know tilt the hip a little bit to absorb the shock but without that important sensory information people get injured you know an injury it's an injury is your body's way of saying you're doing it wrong so if 50% of runners get injured every year they're doing it wrong something's happening but that they're doing it wrong and I'm here to say nobody gets injured walking like unless you're you know hiking on a on a rocky path and you slip on a whatever but but generally walking nobody gets injured in fact when you're injured running how do you recover from your running injury you walk

Melanie Avalon

I'm having a flashback now, and I will say, the section in the book about the shoes, I don't even, okay, I don't like wearing shoes, I don't ever wear now, I don't ever wear running type shoes. I don't like my foot to feel constricted, so I mostly wear sandals, so we can talk about that. But I'm having flashbacks to high school or college, and I wore these shoes, I think they were Skechers, and they were called Tone Ups, and they were supposed to like make you, they're unstable I think, so they're supposed to make your muscles better, but they actually really hurt my knees. I was getting flashbacks to that.

Mark Sisson

example of of a marketing hype that now here's how those came about this is really interesting so in the early 2000s there was a movement toward minimalist footwear I was an early adopter of minimalist footwear I was the original one of the original guys wearing the five toed shoes the Vibram five fingers I had 20 pair of them in my closet I had different colors and different styles I wore them everywhere to my wife's chagrin weddings and funerals you name it I was this is what I wore a lot of people were like-minded a book came out that year called born to run and that's where I got my title born to walk because I'm trying to refute what Chris McDougal wrote in born to run he's a great author and he's a great storyteller and much of what he writes about the book is accurate and one of the things he writes about is that modern footwear modern shoes are too thick and they are causing runners injuries so a lot of people went to to buy minimalist footwear there were several companies startup companies in the 2008 910 era and minimalist shoes were all of a sudden really big and people read his book and they they said wow I'm a good runner I'll go out and run seven miles my first run in these thin thin thin flat flexible shoes well people got injured they got injured at alarming rates because they've been spending decades running in thick cushioned shoes with their toes and feet atrophied and all of the work being done from their ankles up and now they put on these minimalist shoes expecting their arches to work in a way without any arch support that they've never done before expecting their toes to work in a way they hadn't really worked out and so people got injured and so there was a there was a point here where there was a backlash against minimalist footwear and people said well you know it's just it seems like it's not working well it didn't work because it wasn't sold appropriately should have been sold okay walking these shoes a lot if you're gonna run in them run a quarter mile the first day a half a mile the next time you run but do not under any circumstances go out and run hard in these until you have spent a year training your feet what happened was there was a backlash against the minimalist shoe movement and because footwear is such a huge industry a number of people said oh here's our chance if minimalist footwear doesn't work we're gonna make maximalist footwear and that's where MBT Maasai basic training shoes came in that's where Hoka got started that's where you know Nike and New Balance and Adidas and they all started making thick thick thick cushioned running shoes as as literally a knee-jerk reaction to the minimalist footwear movement having been inappropriately sold at the wrong time so Skechers comes along and they say okay if the concept of the minimalist footwear movement was legit which was we want to work your feet more we want the muscles of your feet to be working more and so we're gonna put them in a thin shoe with lots of room for the toes to move around and that'll strengthen your feet Skechers said what if we put your feet on a Bosu ball and now we don't now you're working the muscles of your feet but you're working them in a different way so it was a interesting idea but the execution was horrible and like you said so many people got lower back pains they got because again you remove all of the haptic sensory input to the bottoms of feet now you really remove it now it's really thick and rocker and now the shoe is forcing you to walk in a certain way and your brain has to guess like okay how much you know how much do I roll my ankle or how much do I have to bend my knee sideways to absorb the shock of this or or my lower back is is is hurting because my stabilizer muscles are overworking because I've scrunched my big toe against the other the other toes in the shoe and I've disengaged my big toe from my glute let's take a sidebar here Melanie let's talk about the big toe or what we call the great toe and the glute bodybuilders have recognized this for a long time there's a direct connection between activating fully activating the glutes and having your big toe be able to abduct to pull itself away from your feet So in the gym,

Mark Sisson

they will say, the saying goes, great toe, great ass. And what that means is, that's why you see bodybuilders and weight lifters and really serious people about lifting, taking their shoes off on days they do deadlifts and squats and lunges and things like that, because they want to engage, they want the big toe to splay outwardly in order to fully engage the glute. They want to build the glute, the glute's one of the largest, strongest muscles in the body. You want to engage it. And if you're wearing shoes when you do this activity and you're compressing the big toe against the other toes, squeezing it against the other toes in a shoe or even in a tight sock for that matter, you are not able to fully engage the glute. And then what happens is, when you do the work, when you do the heavy work of a squat or a deadlift even or any of these other lower body focused movements, when you do that, you disengage the big toe from the glute. And now the stabilizer muscles near around the glute have to take on some of the work. And that's where you start injuries there and you start to get problems. So the big toe needs to splay outwardly. It needs to be able to what we call abduct. Abduct is taking it away from the body. Adduct, ADD, is pushing it into the body. Toes need to, they want to splay outward. They should splay outward. So barefoot is always the best way to go. But in the absence of barefoot, having a five-toed minimalist shoe is the second best choice.

Melanie Avalon

Speaking of the shoes and constricting the toe, that was another completely, I think, arbitrary thing. You talk in the book about the narrow shoes going back to peasant times and being rich or not.

Mark Sisson

Yes. So in the days of old where there were caste systems and there were peasants and there were nobility, peasants wore wide toed shoes. They wore wide toes because they were out in the fields working. They needed their feet to do work. The foot was critical to any movement they did, whether you're plowing a field, mowing a field, gathering wood, chopping trees, whatever it was, you need a wide base to initiate whatever action it is. Meanwhile, the nobility wore thin, tight, pointy shoes for no other reason than a fashion statement to tell the world that they were nobility, that they didn't have to work, that they were not peasants. And that's kind of how this, I mean, you go back to the Ming Dynasty and they were binding feet. I mean, you've probably seen some of the horrible photographs of women's feet who were bound from birth and wind up looking like pointy triangles with no toes at all. That's the worst and highest iteration of binding feet together. But shoes do that. Bunions. People come to me all the time, oh my gosh, Mark, I'd love to wear your shoes, but I have bunions. And I'm like, well, okay, I have a lot of people who wear my shoes whose bunions no longer bother them, like at all. They've regained function in their feet. One of those people is my daughter-in-law who at 19 had bunion surgery on one of her feet, didn't have it on the other one. And now she's the marketing director for Palluva and she's kicking herself forever having had bunion surgery because her other non-surgical foot is completely fixed. So bunions, and people will say, well, but Mark, you know, bunions are, they're genetic. They run in my family.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask.

Mark Sisson

bad fashion choices run in your family or good fashion choices depending on if you get wearing Jimmy Choo's or Manolo's. But bunions are a result of bad footwear. Everybody is born with perfect feet. I don't care what they look like. I don't care if they're flat or whatever. Everybody's born with a perfect foot and a perfect kinetic chain, birth defects notwithstanding. And this perfect kinetic chain works for you. So you may say, well, I have flat arches, I have duck feet, I have knock knees, I have wide hips. I don't care. As long as your feet can sense the ground underneath you, your brain knows exactly how to orchestrate your kinetic chain to absorb shock and impact trauma and ground forces perfectly every time you walk. But it has to have access to that information without having that input from the bottoms of the feet to tell what you're walking on, whether it's cobblestones or dirt or grass or a rocky trail or sticks, whatever, the brain has to have that information in order to inform your particular kinetic chain how much to scrunch the arch, how much to bend the toes, how to roll the ankle, how deeply to bend the knees, how much to rotate the hip. All of these things, they work perfectly. And you look at babies, babies have perfect feet, right? They're almost V-shaped, right? You look at the bottom of the heels, the bottom of the V, and then they go outward. Like, oh my God, they're so cute and they're so perfect. Well, we put them in cute little Mary Janes or cute little Nikes. And the next thing you know, kids have foot problems and have shoe problems. Well, bunions as a result of a lifetime and not even that much time. I mean, when my daughter-in-law had her first bunion surgery, she was 19. She already had bad bunions at the age of 19 from footwear, not from genetics. You know, you'll get a genetic predisposition. We talk about this in the intermittent fasting world a lot, right? You have a predisposition to storing some amount of body fat, maybe a little bit more than other people. So you have to be cognizant of that. But in general, your body works the same way everyone else's body works. And so in terms of intermittent fasting, it'll work for you. It might not shed, it may not get you down to, you know, 4% body fat like it would someone else. But it'll definitely work for you if you tweak the knobs right. Same with footwear. If you are able to encourage good foot health, good foot form, resilience, strength, realignment at an early age, your feet will serve you for a lifetime. And when we talk about feet serving you for a lifetime, one of the reasons people die, and this is a typical scenario, you know, somebody is 80 years old, they get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and they trip over the cat, and they fall and break your hip. And that's the beginning of a cascade of bad events, right? They go to the hospital, they get pneumonia, and they die. All of these things happened initially, because maybe the foot wasn't strong enough to withstand, to catch yourself from tripping.

Mark Sisson

And maybe your balance was off because you hadn't done enough footwork in terms of the realm of balance to be able to even maintain good balance. Maybe you hadn't done enough outside work, footwork, walking, and lifting weights, so your bone density was compromised because you didn't do that work. And there your bones, which would not have otherwise broken in that fall, now were so brittle because of lack of activity, that you broke the hip when you fell. It's this chain of events that starts with the feet. And my message, you know, my new mantra, my new mission is to change the way the world looks at foot health as being critical to overall health.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so glad. I was going to ask you about the slipping and falling. So I'm so glad we touched on that. I'm just so happy right now, Mark. OK, for a few reasons. One, the bunions thing, my dad had surgery for it. My grandmother had surgery. I was always told it was genetic. So I was like, am I just waiting? Like, is it going to pop up in my feet? So that's good to hear. And then two, just to touch back on the tone up Skechers thing. One of my favorite things about having like podcasting and having this show is when I have an epiphany from something that I was wondering, you know, like decades ago forever. And and then like I'm who would have thought like two decades later, I'd be talking about toneups right now. And now I understand why I was experiencing that. Another another shoe question. So the reason I was coming back from Vegas was I was hosting on the red carpet. Actually, no, last night, no night before. Wait, was it last night? Oh, biohack yourself. Yeah, yeah. Were you there at a forum? No. OK, it was fun. But I was I was hosting on the red carpet and all the things. And we were there all day. And we were talking about shoes and when to put our heels on. And I was making a comment that I I actually love heels. I either want to be barefoot or wearing high heels, but are high heels horrible?

Mark Sisson

You're horrible, but Melanie, don't stop wearing them. They look fabulous.

Melanie Avalon

That's what Brad said.

Mark Sisson

He was like, they look fabulous. But yeah, they're the worst thing for your feet. So you earn the right to wear them if you spend a lot of time with either going barefoot or wearing toe spacers or going barefoot, walking around with toe spacers, or even better, getting yourself a pair of peluvas and walking around in those. Because the difference, you talked a little bit about sandals. Do you wear the thong kind with the division between the big toe and the second toe? Yes. Okay, see, those are not great. So yeah, those are not helping you at all. You're better off going barefoot. What you want is, because what happens is you sort of have to scrunch your toes a little bit to keep them on under certain circumstances. You know, they're not, I mean, they're better than, if they're wide enough, they're better than wearing, you know, regular restrictive shoes. Let me ask you a question. Did you see Ben Greenfield there?

Melanie Avalon

I so funny thing is he's coming on the show soon. We've had so many email exchanges. Yes. I met him for the first time in person

Mark Sisson

Was he wearing, was he wearing a paloubas?

Melanie Avalon

I didn't look at his feet. I wish we had done this conversation before. I would have been, like, staring.

Mark Sisson

He's so on board, he's so on board with Palouis. And I heard he was wearing him at the premier, but.

Melanie Avalon

He probably was.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, because we have, you know, great looking leather lace up Napa leather lace ups that look just like stylish shoes, you might find at Wolf and Shepherd or something like that. Because we recognize pretty early on that once you understand not just the importance of toe freedom and and relaxing and realigning your strength at your feet, but once you get the feeling the comfort of this, you will not want to wear other shoes again, high heels accepted. But actually, a lot of women who are who are wearing Palooas now are shying away from even wearing high heels because they just they recognize that the comfort, the discomfort of the high heels is so great that they're not willing to put themselves through that. So keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

Are any of the palubas, and this actually kind of expands on the flip-flop question, so you guys sent me a pair and it is enclosed. Are they all enclosed shoes?

Mark Sisson

Yeah. Do you know which ones we sent you? I'd have to check. And what do you think? What's your first impression?

Melanie Avalon

I don't normally put my feet except for heels into enclosed spaces. So it was a completely, it feels completely different.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, it's a novel experience for I get it. It's like, no, it's the difference between a mitten, a mitten and a glove.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was like, this is a new, this is a new experience.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, these are gloves for your feet. These are gloves for your feet. So they take a little bit of getting used to for some people. Some people take to them immediately and go, oh my god, this is the best thing I've ever done. Other people say, they feel a little weird. And then, you know, two days later, like, okay, I need to buy another pair because, you know, I needed another color and another style. So I think one of our sales objectives is to have people give them a day or two trial and, you know, before you say, it just still doesn't feel right. Or whatever. Because, you know, most people are okay with gloves, right? I mean, most people would would put on gloves and say, yeah, I like gloves. Maybe even better than mittens for some certainly for some activities. Anyway, I'm just riffing here. We have a lot of styles and a lot of different uses for them, too. We've got we just introduced a trail shoe. I've got a lot of off-road UTMB racing guys who are training in the shoe and loving it because normal racing shoes of that type are too thick and they can't feel the trail. They can't feel the rocks they're stepping on. And so they tend to twist an ankle, partly because their shoes are too stiff and they haven't spent the time strengthening their ankle and partly because they can't feel what's going on underneath. So when they train with the peluevus, they feel what's going on underneath. And now when the ankle rolls, it rolls just enough, but also the knee bends just a little bit more to offset the forces. And it's a great training tool for somebody who's doing that sort of thing. We tell people, you know, don't run in pelueus. Wear your running shoes when you go run, but train. Spend your day walking around in peluevus. Go to the gym in peluevus. Work. Spend the day working in peluevus if you're having to wear shoes at work. And then when it's time to do your sport, put on your basketball shoes or put on your hockey skates or whatever it is you're putting on. And your feet will be stronger, more resilient, and they will thank you for having done that.

Melanie Avalon

No, I am so excited because I think so the order of my experience with the Paluvas and your book is you guys sent me the Paluvas because when did you launch the company?

Mark Sisson

Oh, it's been a year and a half.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I think it was around the time you launched. It was a while ago. And I hadn't read this book yet. I didn't have any of this education. And like I said, I don't even normally wear, like I pretty much just wear sandals and high heels. So I didn't understand, I did not understand until I read your book and talking to you now and all the things, I'm just like, wow. Anytime it's applicable to my life, I need to be wearing these. And there are so many people in my life who just need these, like this could change the world.

Mark Sisson

No, I think you change the world. And now these are walking shoes. And, and, you know, again, I was the it's not a coincidence that I wrote the book born to walk on the heels pun intended of the shoe company because I'm so adamant about people walking but I'm adamant about them people about people walking well, walking with good form. Now I will share with you today is day 14 of a total hip replacement for me. I had my hip replaced 14 days ago. I am I'm going to say 95% recovered. I thought it was going to take six weeks or eight weeks. I am 95% recovered two weeks into this. I did 40 minutes on the elliptical last night. I did yesterday morning. I did three miles uphill on a treadmill. I'm wearing the peluvus. Now here's the important part of this. You know, I had a traumatic surgery, right? If they cut my the side of my hip open, they yanked my hip bone out, sawed the end of it off, put a medical metal L piece on it, reamed out my hip socket, put a ceramic cup in there, stuck it back together and sewed me back up. The next day I was I walked about a half a mile a day later. I walked about a half a mile in peluvus in downtown Vail, Colorado. The next day I walked a mile in peluvus and I've been I've been increasing my output. But the important thing is with the peluvus, I am able to execute a perfect gate almost immediately because I'm waiting the heel and then rolling off the big toe. We talked earlier about this big toe abduction, this ability of the big toe to splay outwardly. A perfect gate really requires that you roll off the big toe. And I'm I guaranteed my quick recovery. And I'm going to I've already talked to my doctors about this is is in part due to the fact that my walk is not compromised by a restrictive shoe that is squishing my big toe against the other toes and causing me to over pronate and roll sideways off the shoe. As happens in so many cases, you know, when you you angle your foot outward 15 degrees and then you kind of when you walk through it, you roll off the front instead of pushing off directly off the big toe. So I'm I'm really thrilled about and by the way, when I when I wrote to my surgeon and I said, I think we're going to revolutionize THA, which is total hip arthro arthroplasty. He said, Why stop there? Why not? Why not knees and ankles and everything else? And I'm like, You're right. Exactly. So I think I think we're really I know we're really on to something here. I mean, we, you know, we already have tens of thousands, many tens of thousands of customers who are extremely satisfied, who buy multiple pairs, whose lives have changed, who are. And in your case, Melanie, if you like to walk outside, that's the best use of palovas for you. And I have, I live in a building in South Florida, I told you Dan Buettner lives in my building, but there's a lot of sort of accomplished individuals that live in my building.

Mark Sisson

My wife has probably 15 friends that are between the age of 60 and 70. Many of them walk six to eight miles a day. All of them are walking in palovas. And all of them at this point would not have another shoe to walk in because the the ground feel the the engagement of the full leg engagement, not just a glute, but every muscle up the leg as a result of this ground feel as a result of this toe splay as a result of this minimalist notion of the of the footwear. The ability to articulate toes. I mean, we walk on cobblestones here and we call it foot candy. It's like it's it feels so cool to walk in cobblestones and and have it be put a put a smile on your face. You know, when you walk outside and you've had shoes on all day and you take your shoes off and you walk in grass and you can't not smile, right? Like you step in grass and all of a sudden the world is wonderful, right? If you're barefoot, that's sort of the feeling we wanted to recreate with with palovas. We wanted to get this sense of when I'm walking, I want to experience the universe. I don't want to necessarily. I mean, I sometimes I'll listen to a podcast, but most of the time when I'm walking, I'm experiencing the wind on my face, the sounds around me, conversations going back and forth, smiling at people as they walk by. This is this is real world, real time, real life experience. You know, all we have in this life is now. Yesterday didn't really exist. It happened, but I only remember it. And tomorrow's not here yet. All we have is now. And so the more amount of time you can spend sensing the moment and appreciating the moment as a result of your tactile communication with Earth, I think the better off you'll be and the happier you'll be.

Melanie Avalon

This is so incredible. I have decided I am giving these to everybody for holidays. Yeah, this is absolutely incredible. And I just I found the one that you guys sent me and now I just lost it. It was the the women's it's one that came in all pink. Oh, the women's strand trainer. Yes. Wow. Okay. So quick question about when people so people order palubas for themselves, a few quick questions about practically implementing these and a clarification question about the intuition. So, so if people were in palubas, do they have to worry about concentrating at all on their walking form? Or is this going to make them intuitively walk correctly?

Mark Sisson

I think that's it. I think you intuitively walk better. Think about your walking form. And if you've had, if your form has been compromised by years of wearing bad shoes and your feet are deformed, take it easy. Obviously, you know, walk around the house a little bit the first day, keep them on for an hour, see what you think, notice how your feet feel. In many cases, what we tell people is if your feet slide right into your pelubas, you want these shoes. If your feet don't slide right into these pelubas, you need these shoes. So many people's feet are deformed from years of wearing narrow restrictive shoes or from the bunions or from, you know, loss of communication with their feet. I mean, sometimes it takes people 10 minutes to get their pelubas on the first time to get each toe into the appropriate socket. That's an example of complete loss of toe awareness. Like you've like the fact that you can't tell me that your toes are in each individual socket tells me you've lost communication with this most important, one of the most important organs in your body that is your main connection with the universe. So many people have tiny small toes, right? Their little toe, their pinky toe looks like a vestigial organ that's going to shrivel up and fall off. It's been so, it's been so relegated to being squished against the next toe. No, you want to, you want to articulate that you want to, you want to separate it, you want to get it out there. I mean, there's a reason that 20 million pairs of toe separators have been sold in the last couple of years, the toe spacers. I think women in general know that their feet are messed up. And so lots of women take their shoes off at the end of the day, they put on their toe spacers, they watch Netflix, you know, for two hours, and then they go to sleep. Well, that's a great start. But I'm saying what if you lived during the daytime, you walked and you ran errands and you dropped the kids off at school and you went to work or whatever you do, you did the laundry, you did your, and the whole time you're wearing either barefoot or you're wearing pelubas. So every step you take, you are reinforcing this positive realignment and strengthening and increasing the mobility and the resilience of your foot passively. Like you're not running, you're not doing specific exercises. You're just living your life, walking around a lot in pelubas or barefoot. Like I said, I'd rather people go barefoot, but it's just, if you're outside, it's just impractical. You know, so much of our environment is hardwood, floors, marble floors, tile floors, pavement, concrete, things like that. We designed the pelubas to be, to give you the sensation of walking barefoot on a putting green when you're walking on a sidewalk, right? So it's not as squishy squishy at all, but it's also not thin, thin, thin.

Mark Sisson

So you feel everything and you're calling upon your metatarsal head and your fat pads to absorb all the shock. No, just a tiny bit of, just enough protection and cushion so that you could walk. And this was my, by the way, this was my litmus test so that I could walk 10 to 12 miles a day in Europe on concrete with these shoes on and feel better as a result of having done it. Not get bone bruises, not, because the old shoes, the old five-toed shoes, the ones that I originally talked about that I wore, I couldn't walk two or three miles without getting bone bruises and then really having my feet suffer. So that was one of the first things I did when I reinvented, redesigned this concept from the ground up.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Okay, that explains a lot. So the first time I put it on, yeah, I had issues like getting my toes in and I thought I needed a bigger size. So I did get a bigger size. I don't know if it was both things happening there. Like I need a bigger size and I've lost intuition of my toes and my little toes gonna fall off.

Mark Sisson

Don't let that happen.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Oh my goodness. And what about socks? Do people wear socks with these?

Mark Sisson

Absolutely we make socks we make a different size of socks and different we have a no show sock for people who don't want to have people see their socks we make an ankle sock and crew sock. They're all five toed of course you can't wear regular socks with these. That wasn't your problem no no okay yeah yeah but but having said that i don't i don't wear socks at all and so i made we made the shoes we made the shoes for people like me who don't wear socks prefer not to wear socks so all of the shoes are. available to be worn without socks it's just that some people insist on wearing socks and and you know, sometimes we have these try on events where people we will bring. You know, a full kit of every size that people are gonna try on the shoes and then see if they like them, but if multiple people are going to try on the same shoe we we bring socks for everybody to try on that's just a sanitary thing but. You know, some people absolutely want socks when I was in veil it was zero degrees when I was rehabbing my hip day one I had socks I wore socks underneath regular shoe and walking through. The little town of veil on the cobblestones in zero degree temperature was fantastic it felt great they gave me crutches they told me you're going to need these crutches for a week at least i'm like don't tell anybody I throw them away after the first day i'm like nope. Don't need crutches sorry this is not happening just further evidence to me of how critical the big toe is and toe splay and toe articulation is to orchestrating a good walking gate and then once you have that the more you walk the more you reinforce. That upright stature that good posture that good mood that you know everything coming full circle back to the concept of walking born to walk, we are born to walk and I want people to walk as much as they can with good form with good footwear and you know extract the greatest amount of contentment enjoyment fulfillment and pleasure out of life as possible.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I am so excited right now. I think my game plan, now I'm looking at your shoes and you have so many more since when I first ordered. So you had this one at the time, but I think what I'm gonna get is the Miami casual loafer for women's for the day, like when I'm outside. And then you have a slip on. What does it mean that the heel goes down?

Mark Sisson

Yeah, you can either put the, you can, I have two of them, I'm wearing one of them right now. I just had to drop a package off down at the front desk in my building. And I didn't want to go down barefoot, I would, but it's, you know, not allowed, it's inappropriate here. So I jammed into my, my zen, these are my zen slip-ons zen, zen, they're quilted. And they have a flexible back. So you can either pull the back up and keep them cinched and on. Or you can, it's a collapsible back, you could just step on it as if they're, I don't know what the, what the other term is, like more like a sandal. Like you don't, you don't have any, any back support or anything around it, but it goes both ways. And when I was, this is the shoe I wore in Aspen, when I, in Aspen, in Vale, when I was, I'm going to Aspen next week, when I was in Vale, when it was cold. And because I, I just come out of surgery, I mean, I couldn't really bend over to tie my shoes or to, or to cinch my shoes on, but I could step into them and step on the collapsed heel and walk around town with the collapsed heel and socks on, it was, it was great.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. This is my shoe. Okay. I'm excited. I'm so excited.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, so I want you to keep me posted because you're someone I need to have, understand the concept, embrace it, love it, and promote it. Because I think you get, not just the science, but you get the sociology behind it, the anthropology behind it, and it's concurrent with an intermittent fasting-type lifestyle.

Melanie Avalon

I'm just so grateful and so excited because literally, I was thinking about this like today with your book. I'm like, nobody's talking about this. Like I know there are other companies making like minimalist shoes and things like that, but like this book that you have, this education, it's absolutely mind blowing and then people can, well, A, read the book and make lifestyle changes, but then you have a practical solution where it's not like we're gonna have to, like we just talked about, people can just start wearing palubas and it's gonna really like help change things. It's ironic because you're talking in the book about one of the problems with running being the low barrier to entry. So anybody can do it, but we shouldn't be doing it. And it's a lot of problems. This is low barrier to entry in the best way.

Mark Sisson

Absolutely. We had a team meeting today. In that meeting, I reinforced to my team that we are an education company that sells shoes.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Well, listeners are probably dying to get a pair for themselves and for their whole family like I want to do now. So you're so kind. Listeners can go to paluba.com. That's P-E-L-U-V-A.com and use the code IAPODCAST to get a discount on your order. So definitely take advantage of that. That's the code IAPODCAST at paluba.com. Oh, by the way, where does the name come from?

Mark Sisson

Oh, so, you know, I've been very adamant about the word primal. I have 20 trademarks. Primal Kitchen, Primal Blueprint, Primal Health Coach Institute, Primal Fuel, Primal Fitness, boom, boom, boom, all down the line. I went to get primal footwear and somebody had carved out the word primal and there was no other iteration. So we had to make a word up. So we looked through all of the languages and come to find out, and I have no affinity for Portuguese, but in Portuguese, PE is foot and luva is glove and you put them together and it's pe luva.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing!

Mark Sisson

And it sounds cool, doesn't it, I mean, you got to admit it's a great it's kind of a luxury sounding name and we really like it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, you did a good job because a lot of times like made up words or vague words, they're hard to remember. Like ever since I learned about it from Brad, originally, I've never like, I've never like had to scratch my mind to like remember what it's called. Well, thank you so much, Mark. I appreciate your time so much. I was sad. I heard that you were at the, uh, eudaimonia conference briefly. I was there too, but I did not see you.

Mark Sisson

No, I just I came down. I literally drove drove up from Miami Beach for the afternoon to just check it out. We were thinking about maybe exhibiting there next year. So I wanted to get just sort of the layout.

Melanie Avalon

I'm definitely gonna go next year. So hopefully I will see you there. And thank you again so much. Literally, you're like one of my favorite people. You're honestly one of the reasons I'm doing what I'm doing today. I've been following your work since forever. Like the early blog days. And I just can't express enough gratitude for everything that you do. So thank you.

Mark Sisson

It's my pleasure and thank you so much for that acknowledgement. That's really important to me to hear that people took the message and are, you know, the term paying it forward doesn't do it justice, but I appreciate the fact that you do what you do.

Melanie Avalon

Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Enjoy Aspen, and I will talk to you soon. All right. Thanks, Melanie. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Dec 23

Episode 401: Vanessa’s Last Episode, Special AMA, Have Our Thoughts On IF Changed, Does Protein Become Glucose, Keto Vs High Carb, Accurately Measuring Protein, Protein For Vegetarians, Helping Teens With Weight Loss, Red Light Therapy Protocols, Vanessa’s New Book, And More!

Welcome to Episode 400 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SHOW NOTES

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LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 401 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, Avalon X. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 401 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here. This is going to be a really sentimental, emotional episode for me. I'm here today with Vanessa Spina on her last episode on the show, Vanessa. Although, actually, we're going to have to have you come back if you're down as like a random guest co-host every now and then if you want to in the future, maybe.

Vanessa Spina

That would be so nice because I was just thinking as you're talking like, oh my gosh, this is going to be my last time saying hello, everyone. So yes, I would love to come back from time to time. That would be so much fun.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, we should do it. We should have like a reunion episode. Yeah, that would be fantastic. It would be cool if I could orchestrate a reunion episode. Although, I guess, well you know Cynthia. Cynthia knows Jen. Do you know Jen? You know Jen? Yes. Wait, do we all know each other?

Vanessa Spina

Yes, we should have a four-way. Yeah, Cynthia was just messaging me this morning because she re-released my podcast, the episode of her podcast that I was on. And so she was messaging me this morning about it. So yeah, we're all, I don't talk to Jen as often. I talk to Cynthia probably more often, but I did meet Jen earlier this year. So yeah, we all know each other.

Melanie Avalon

and you and I have not recorded together since I met Cynthia in person, which was so exciting. Yeah, how was that? Oh, it was so exciting. It's so weird to meet somebody in person who you know so well and have talked to so much and then meet them in real life, you know? I feel like people, especially it's weird because like I've seen her on obviously Instagram and social media, so I know what she looks like, but I feel like people still look in real life sometimes different. Like she's so she's so like petite. She was doing an interview for her podcast, like a live podcast, so I went and watched. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, it was it was really amazing. It was so nice to meet her in person. So now I just have to meet you. You want to come to the US?

Vanessa Spina

I'm sure it'll happen at some point, you know, I'll be so nice, but that's so fun. You got to meet Cynthia and fun for her too

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so but in any case so Vanessa you have a lot of well Okay, so a few things a you have a lot of really intense amazing life change is happening with your your boys and homeschooling And all the things and so this just wasn't going to work out so much anymore for you know Everything that's going on in life, which is completely understandable. I've had the time of my life doing this show so many laughs I feel like we've tackled so much especially content related to protein Which people have so many questions about and I just feel like you've brought so much to the show and I've had so much fun And I'm gonna miss you so much

Vanessa Spina

too. Yeah, it feels bittersweet. It's been so amazing to do this with you. I never co-hosted a podcast with anyone else, so you've been just the most amazing host and co-host. From the beginning, you made it such an amazing experience. It was so exciting joining with you, doing our cover art, countless evenings that we spent together giggling and sharing our various experiences and Q&A with listeners. I'm so thankful for the experience. Honestly, it was really magical and special. I'm so thankful to you for inviting me on to co-host with you. I've just enjoyed it so much. You were just a dream co-host. I couldn't imagine doing it with anyone else. I'm much more of a solo act to myself. To join forces with someone else, I don't think it would have happened with anyone else but you, but you just made it so amazing, such a beautiful experience. Our listeners, I'm so thankful to the listeners. Such an incredible community that you've built here from originally starting the podcast with Jin. For me being a listener over the years and then hearing Cynthia take the torch from you was really great. Then it was such a thrill to take the baton from her mixing analogies with torches and batons. It's been amazing. I think you've been just here all along with all these different co-hosts. I think that's a fun thing in itself that you get to bring on different co-hosts who can share different backgrounds and different experiences. I'm glad that I got to be the protein one because I know over the years there were a lot of questions about intermittent fasting and protein. I think it's really been an exciting time, especially in the last year. Because of certain studies in particular, we've really answered the question of whether or not you can actually do intermittent fasting without compromising on your lean body mass, without risking your lean body mass and being able to maintain it as well as grow your muscle. Even if you're eating within a certain window, there's actually research that just came out from Dr. Luc Van Loon's group where they showed with intermittent fasting that you won't compromise any of your lean body mass or any of your muscles. A lot of those alarms and fears, I think, that were raised previously had a lot of people concerned about maybe they should stop intermittent fasting. We also had the other research by also Dr. Luc Van Loon and Dr. Jorn Tomellen that came out in December showing that if you eat 100 grams of protein in one sitting, those amino acids are just circulating and available in your peripheral blood supply for up to 12 hours and probably longer. It doesn't matter when you eat your protein. You don't have to be so concerned or worried or stressed about eating it within a certain anabolic window. What matters is you hit your protein goal for the day and you can do that in one meal or two meals or a multi-course meal that you have or however it is that you structure a day.

Vanessa Spina

The bottom line is that intermittent fasting and building and maintaining your lean body mass and muscle don't have to be in conflict with each other. I think that was the big question that a lot of long-term listeners and intermittent fasteners had, especially in this community. So I really feel excited that we're in a time right now where the research is providing the answers because I think there was a little bit of conflicting information on both sides before, but I think really in the last year, it's really been settled. They say science is never settled, but I think it's been settled to the greatest degree that it could be, at least for now, until new research comes out changing things. But I feel really good about that and I feel really grateful and thankful and appreciative about my time co-hosting with you. So it's really been an honor to be co-host with you.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I echo back literally all of that, everything you said in the beginning about you being a dream co-host. And yes, we honestly just had the best time. It shall be missed. And I agree so much about the protein stuff. And so actually for today's episode, I reached out to listeners and asked for questions for you AMA style for our last episode together. So this actually speaks to what you're talking about, the amazing audience and all their amazing questions. We got a lot of questions for you. So shall we jump in?

Vanessa Spina

been to some of them? Yes, I would love to. That sounds great. And thank you to all the listeners for sending in your questions.

Melanie Avalon

So actually the first one I'm going to ask relates to what you were just talking about because you were talking about how the view on protein has evolved during the course of even being on this show. So a similar question, but for intermittent fasting specifically, Judy says, okay, seriously, how have your views changed on intermittent fasting from when you first started the podcast to now?

Vanessa Spina

I love this question. Thank you so much for submitting it. I think it's such an important one. And I really this is where I'm at completely with it. I mean, first of all, you're gonna laugh, but I've fallen back in love with intermittent fasting. And I started so after we went to Greece, I decided I had been reflecting for a while, you know, I was doing a lot of carb experiments and things over the summer. And I realized that I just wasn't feeling optimally. I wasn't feeling as energetic as I was before. I wasn't feeling as focused as I was before. I was feeling hungry all the time. I also was having these like aches, body aches and things I don't normally have. And I realized it's just that sort of a moderate to higher carb approach or lifestyle just isn't it for me. So I decided to fully go back to high protein keto. And I jumped back on doing that by going back into intermittent fasting and doing one meal a day. So I've been doing that now since we got back from Greece. So it's been about, I would say about six weeks now. And I'm loving it. Like it's just been amazing. I'm completely back in love with intermittent fasting, I would say like 99% of the days since then I've just done one meal a day. I usually open my eating window at 4pm and fast until then. And I feel amazing. Like I just have all the energy. I feel great during the day. I'm able to get all the things I need to get done. And I'm not distracted by work or feeling hungry. And I also realized that ketones are a big thing for me. It's a big part of intermittent fasting for me. And I don't think that carbs in themselves are inherently bad in any way. And I don't want that to come across. I think different people have different lifestyles and things that work for them. For me, I feel optimal with a pretty low carb approach, like low to very low carb intake. And also doing at least two meals a day or more fasting, I get some expression of ketones. And what I figured out is that it's not that carbs I think are bad for me, especially healthy whole food carbs. It's that they are anti ketogenic for me. And I think it's for me, the ketones that help me feel so satiated combined with protein. So when I have more carbs, it starts to make me hungrier. So I did an episode about this on my podcast, and I had such an outpouring from listeners who said they had been experimenting doing the same things that I was, and adding in more and more carb, and they were feeling hungry all the time throughout the day. So I think that that was kind of leading me away from the intermittent fasting is that I was just hungry all throughout the day because of the carbs. So I went, you know, back into ketosis, back to doing, you know, OMAD, and I feel amazing. Now to your question, what do I think about intermittent fasting? I really think that if you look at the body of evidence on what intermittent fasting does compared with caloric restriction, there's a lot of overlap between the two.

Vanessa Spina

And I really think for myself that for the most part, intermittent fasting is a great way of doing caloric restriction and a lot of the benefits from caloric restriction or that are attributed to intermittent fasting come from the caloric restriction that happens very effortlessly for a lot of us when we do intermittent fasting. But I do think that there's just so much overlap between the two that a lot of the benefits are coming from that caloric restriction, but it's just way easier to do caloric restriction in this way. I do think there's a little bit of magic, a little bit of a magical aspect to it, which does come from the ketones. And I think that when you are doing intermittent fasting, closer to the more expression of ketones towards the end of the fast, in terms of autophagy, it's pretty much awash compared to most of the research that I've seen. If you compare caloric restriction and the autophagy from that, and you compare intermittent fasting and the autophagy from that after a 24 hour period, it tends to even out. So, you know, I think it's just a really amazing tool for doing caloric restriction and getting some ketones. And for some people, it just works. It's quite amazing. And if you're one of those people, you know it and you absolutely love it and what it does for you. And I definitely feel that way, but I also don't let myself get too carried away because I also look at what the research is showing. And I think, you know, there are some benefits to it that can just be attributed to the caloric restriction. And I think there's also some of it that come from the ketosis or ketogenesis that does get sort of entered into and amplified, especially if you're not on a high carb diet, you're going to get, you know, more expression of ketones. So that's kind of where I'm at when I look at it and the most honest, most honest way.

Melanie Avalon

many things that I love here. Okay, so it's great because you actually, you actually answered Nadia's or Nydia's question. So I announced in the post that you were leaving. So her first part said, what? Question mark? Question mark? No. And then she said, how are you feeling now that you got back to keto? We are going to miss her. So you answer that question. It's so interesting to me because it's interesting how people really can function. People feel better on different macros. And I'm curious, did you ever try the fruit only carb approach? I'm just curious.

Vanessa Spina

What do you mean, like just fruit and meat, kind of like a carnivore?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, like when you were doing carbs, you were doing.

Vanessa Spina

So yeah, I had started experimenting with adding more and more carb in throughout the summer because I was experimenting, especially with targeting it around my workouts and also targeting it a little bit in the last week of my cycle. And this was partially influenced from Dr. Stacy Sims work and some other experts that I interviewed. So I had added in, when I added in my pre-workout meal, I was having some oatmeal with protein powder in it. So that was like the main carb that I added back in and then the rest were really from fruit. I did try some rice a few times and I just found that the higher carb, the more carb I added back in, the more fat I had to scale back on. And that's, I think, harder. I think very, very low fat than it is to go very, very low carb. Because if you're having a piece of salmon, it's like there's protein and fat in there. And I don't know if you've ever had protein, I mean salmon, that's very low fat. It's just not very good. It's hard to get proteins that have zero fat in it, whereas it's a lot easier to just not have carbs. So I think at some point when you start adding back carbon, you're going to get to a point where you're adding in carb and you also have fat in there. So you're not fully keto and you're not fully high carb, low fat. You're kind of somewhere in between. And that's kind of what I was finding is I never tried just only fruit. I think it was like, but most of the carbs I was eating were fruit. And for me personally, it made me very hungry. And I think, again, it's because they're anti ketogenic. So there's just no way that I could maintain ketosis or much of it at all, even with intermittent fasting when I was adding those carbs in. And so it was combining in a way that made it harder and harder for me to do that fast throughout the day. I was fighting against myself. That makes sense.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, completely. And it's interesting. So like, for me, so I will have salmon, but I won't have it every night, but I will just basically not, I'll just never add fats to anything. And then in general, my proteins are lean. So it's, you know, the scallops and a lot of scallops and bare moondi and the occasional salmon, occasional fillet, mignon. But I find if I just stick with those proteins and like a lot of them, then I don't really have to think about the fat aspect. I just chalk it up to like, it all kind of works in the end. I feel more like, so for me, it's actually easier doing fasting with high carb, low fat. I can do that every night. And I feel satiated. I feel it feels sustainable compared to when I go keto. After a while I get like, it gets hard, which is interesting. So then I need to like, bring in the carbs. So it's just really interesting how different things work for different people.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, and I still have fruit, like I still eat, like I just had a protein shake with strawberries and blueberries and raspberries, and I had some dried apple before that. So like, I'm not removing all fruit, but it's just the amount that I had been bringing back in. I just feel so much better going back, you know, lower, like cutting out the oatmeal, cutting out any of the other carbs that I was having. I do have more legumes now, but it's just, I'm finding that once I went back, you know, cutting back on the carbs, it was just so much easier to get back into that pattern of like fasting throughout the day and not thinking about food at all. So I don't know, for some people, it's probably like the fasting leads the way. And for others, it's like the macros and how they feel lead the way, but they can, they kind of compliment each other. I think especially keto and fasting compliment each other so well, because they're such a similar state. So I think as for me personally, it just makes it effortless to do, you know, the longer intermittent fasting. And I just wasn't finding that when I was doing higher carbs. So I feel really happy that I've like found my way back here and it just feels right. And I'm glad that I also experimented and I think it's so important for people to unapologetically experiment and not be concerned about identifying with a different diet or a different lifestyle. You know, psychology shows us that identifying with different lifestyles and dietary approaches actually makes us more successful with them and makes us commit and, you know, be more compliant with them. But I also think it's a double-edged sword because you can get into a situation where you're like, I can't go and try high carb for a summer or I can't go and, you know, do this or that because I'm keto or I'm this or that. And you kind of sometimes identify with your lifestyle. And I think it's so important to experiment all the time. And every time I do these experiments, I always find my way back to the way that I feel optimal. And I want everyone to find that optimal for themselves. And the only way to do it I think is to try a lot of different things. So I really hope that, you know, people feel encouraged and supported to go out and experiment with all these different things. Try high carb, moderate carb, low carb, high protein, low protein, you know, even vegan carnivore. Try everything and you'll find where you really feel your best.

Melanie Avalon

I agree so much. And I think it's really awesome that both you and I experiment and we both landed or we tend to land at the opposite sides of the spectrum, which just goes to show that different things work for different people. So although I feel like the one commonality with us is we're always high protein. Yes. High protein and fruit. Yes. I love my fruit. Which speaking of Denise, she says it is still hard for me to believe she can consume over 200 grams of protein with only one or two meals. It is so difficult for me to get in even 80 grams. So are you actually getting in that much protein, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

So it's funny because since I went back to doing the OMAD, I'm definitely not hitting 200 grams anymore. And so I just did an Ask Me Anything special. It was actually the AMA number 20 and episode 636. And I talk about exactly what I eat in a day. This actually just came out this past Monday. And I talk about how I get to that 200 grams of protein, because I actually had this question from some other listeners in my podcast group as well. And so I really go into detail on the exact meals and everything that I have when I hit that 200 grams. But since I've gone back to OMAD, I have not been hitting that much. I'm a lot closer to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. So it's definitely come down from that. And I feel great hitting that number. I think 200 grams of protein per day is not necessary by any means. I think there's definitely diminishing returns after you pass the point of 1 gram per pound of body weight. And for listeners in Europe, that's closer to 1.6 grams of protein per kg. And I just think, yeah, for the most part, I'm not hitting that. And I think it's probably better for me to be closer to that 1 gram of pound per pound of body weight. But I'm just one of those people who loves protein. And I found all these different ways, you know, like making protein bread. And I've been doing all these recipes lately on my Instagram and on my website, which are all like high protein recipes, like the cottage cheese viral, the viral cottage cheese flatbread. I made that also into a pizza crust, you know, making frozen yogurt, which is super high protein and sugar free, high protein cheesecake. I recently made high protein cottage cheese pancakes, like all these different recipes helped me to really hit pretty high on protein. And I'm also someone who loves eating protein. So the reason that I would get to 200 grams of protein in a day for me was just because I enjoyed it. It wasn't because 200 grams was conferring more benefits for me than hitting around one gram of protein per pound of body weight. So once you get there, a lot of research shows that there's diminishing returns in terms of building muscle and also on satiety and appetite. So protein is the most satiating macronutrient. It secretes so many satiety hormones that act on the brain as well and are secreted by the gut. And it helps us to feel full because we have to get that protein every day. But once you get to that amount, there's really no need to go above that. Like I was just doing that because I really enjoyed protein, not because it was making me feel that much fuller or anything else. I also have these chocolate protein puddings. I make a protein ice cream. So I just have all these tools that I've developed over time and recipes that really helped me get a lot of protein in. And of course, protein shakes, all of these things helped me to hit that protein target. And I often just overshot it just because I liked it, not because getting to 200 grams was conferring any additional benefits.

Melanie Avalon

While we are the same there, I mean historically, I just love protein. It is just so good. We actually have some specific questions about just nuances of protein. So Tammy wants to know, she says she gets so confused. 100 to 200 grams of protein. Is that six ounces of fillets a day or two chicken breasts? Can you let us know how many ounces a day we should eat? I guess of food. And actually, and then also related to that, just to like discuss all of it, Denise wants to know when figuring out grams of protein and meat, poultry, seafood, et cetera, should it be weighed before cooking, raw or after cooking? The weight does change quite a bit. I normally estimate six grams of protein per one ounce of cooked protein.

Vanessa Spina

Okay, so I actually have this graphic that I created on my social media. So if you want to get, let's say 30 grams of protein in one meal, whether that's a snack or a meal, because you want to make sure to get that at each of your meals, you don't necessarily have to hit one gram of protein per pound of body weight. That's really, I think, optimal, but as long as you're getting at least 35 grams of high quality protein, if it's animal sourced, it can even be 30 grams. But if it's not animal sourced, then you definitely want to get at least 35 at your meals. This is just per meal, what that looks like. So I think that makes the most sense in terms of explaining per meal as opposed to for a whole day. So if you're having, for example, chicken breast, as you were asking, that's about six ounces of chicken breast is 30 grams of protein in grams, that's 175 grams of chicken breast. And you always want to measure it raw because I know that's confusing for people, but usually we always go by raw because that's how food is sold. So that's how you're able to measure and quantify things. Whereas if you measure it cooked, obviously you lose a lot of the water, but it would be much harder to compute things if you were measuring things cooked because it's going to be variable. Whereas when you have the raw weight, you can just see what it is when you buy it. So it's easier to go by raw weights. If you were having eggs, that's 4.6 to 6 whole large eggs. It's a lot. 30 grams of protein is 4.5 to 6 large eggs, whole eggs. If you're doing that in egg whites, it's about 8.8 egg whites or almost nine egg whites. If you're having salmon, that's 5.8 ounces or 167 grams. If you were having plain yogurt, it's one and a half cups of plain yogurt. If you were having beef, that's 5.2 ounces or 148 grams. If you're having turkey, it's about 6.3 ounces or 180 grams. If that was in bacon, it would be 9.2 ounces or 260 grams because obviously bacon is a lot more fat. It's like protein and fat, probably half and half. It's delicious too. Yes. And if you were having whey protein, it's 25 to 30 grams because whey protein is about 11% leucine. So 25 to 30 grams of whey protein is serving as 30 grams. It's the most straightforward with whey protein because it's 30 grams in weight and it's also 30 grams of protein. That's some examples in ounces. I do have this posted on my Instagram and it is a little infographic with the exact portions to optimize muscle protein synthesis. I hope that that's helpful. Again, with the weights, always go by raw because that's usually what it is going by when you're looking at macro breakdowns because that's how food is sold.

Melanie Avalon

That was insanely helpful. Also related, so you're saying, you know, we don't necessarily have to have that 200 grams of protein a day or that, so two questions here. What do we need to have minimum for the protein? That's my question. And then Michelle said, we are going to miss you, Vanessa Spina, with the little like tragically crying emoji, the one that's like crying and like its mouth is like open, it's like so upset, that emoji. I'm really gonna miss this too. I know, she says, good luck with everything, with the emoji, with the hearts, we love that one. The smiling emoji with the hearts. I'm jealous you live in Europe. It seems amazing over there. I guess I wanna know more about the 30 grams of protein we need to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. I've been making myself eat a little something before the gym lately, but it's usually just a protein bar with 15 grams of protein, but then I have about 40 grams of protein after the gym and animal protein. Is that okay? Or do I need to have more protein before my workout? Thank you. So my question is, what minimum would you put on total protein intake and then do we also need to have this 30 grams at a time to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and then her situation with the gym?

Vanessa Spina

I mean, I hate to say it, but the RDA for protein is the minimum amount that you can get away with without really, like, to avoid disease, but you can also actually build muscle at that, at the RDA, which surprises a lot of people. And I recently got to interview, as you know, my hero, Dr. Luke Van Loon. He had some things to share about protein that I had really never considered. And he, he's really, his main message was that your body adjusts to whatever protein you give it. So in some ways, you know, I think he believes we make a little bit too much out of, you know, the protein question, which is kind of blasphemy in some ways, like he's a protein scientist and he studies is, there's definitely a amount that's optimal and it's not the RDA, but the RDA of that 0.8 grams per kilogram is probably just what you need as like a floor to avoid disease. And he said you can actually build muscle at the RDA level too. So it's not optimal though, right? So if you want optimal, then that is, according to the research, closer to 0.72 grams of protein per pound of body weight, which is about 1.6 grams per kilogram. So that's like where you want to be if you are someone who is focused on building and retaining all the lean mass, that's where you want to be. So you know, you can portion that up throughout your day, but a lot has been made about getting at least 30 grams of protein per meal. I think maybe a little bit too much may have been made of that. Now that I've interviewed so many different protein experts on this topic, I think the latest cutting edge research is showing us that what matters is that you hit your protein target for the day at the end of the day. And it doesn't need to be within a certain anabolic window. It just needs to be somewhere in the 24 hours since you did your workout in order to optimize your muscle growth. It doesn't need to be 45 minutes after your workout as some people make it out to me. There's a lot of people who do have these very specific recommendations and break it down further into women. And I've talked to some very seasoned scientists on the other end whose opinion, this is not my opinion, but their opinion is that a lot of times because the fitness space is so crowded, there are people who will have a very specific message because it's a way to garner more eyes on their work. And it's not necessarily what the research is actually showing in terms of outcomes. So I think that it probably places unnecessary stress on people. And that's what I love so much about the research by Dr. Jorn Tremelon and Dr. Luke Van Loon is they found as long as you get the protein in, if you eat a hundred grams of protein at one meal, it's just going to circulate in your peripheral bloodstream. It's not going to turn to fat. It's just going to circulate the amino acids are going to circulate and be available to be taken up by your muscle tissue, by your organ tissues. And it's just going to stay there like floating around until your body needs it.

Vanessa Spina

And at some point it'll all be taken up. And, you know, it doesn't have to be before you work out, after you work out, it just needs to be sometime within 24 hours of your workout. After 24 hours, there is diminishing returns in terms of the impact that you would have on your muscle. And the other key message that Dr. Loon especially conveyed was that the most important thing is actually getting the resistance training done, because as much as protein can help us from losing muscle mass, the main signal really is the resistance training for building muscle. So the protein helps, but you have to get the resistance training actually done. So that's, yeah, I think that addressed most of your questions.

Melanie Avalon

One quick question from me. So you're talking about the amino acids just circulating. Do some of them, though, turn into glucose?

Vanessa Spina

So, he said, and according to their research, they just keep circulating in your bloodstream until they're taken up by different tissues. And I asked him very pointedly.

Melanie Avalon

it's different, right, than what we've been, like what we've been saying.

Vanessa Spina

And their research is the only research that did muscle biopsies for 12 hours, measuring muscle protein synthesis. And Dr. Tramellon said at the end of the 12 hours, it was still going. So they stopped taking muscle biopsies, but he's very sure that it wasn't just stopping at 12 hours because that's when they stopped taking the biopsies, right? So the protein, the amino acids, don't get turned into anything else. I asked him very pointedly, at what point does it turn into fat, right? Because he said only in the situation where someone is massively over-consuming protein as well as fat and carbohydrate, but massively over-consuming it to the point where their body couldn't possibly use it, that's when the body would potentially turn it into fat, but way after it would have already turned the carbs into fat and the fat and taken the fat up. So it's only in an extreme scenario where the protein is consumed in such an excess in addition to other energy calories as well. And he said it could potentially be stored at some point, but what they've seen is that the amino acids just stay floating around. And some of it is taken up by your muscle, some of it is actually just taken up right away by your gut even during the digestive process as fuel for your intestinal cells. And the rest is utilized as building blocks for your different enzymes and hormones and tissues and skin, hair and nails, our entire body is mostly protein. So it makes a lot of sense. And that's really what the latest, most cutting edge research is showing.

Melanie Avalon

So that's different than what we were thinking about, you know, what were they saying like 60? There was a six in there like 60% 60 60% what what what six am I thinking of? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina

It was, I believe, Dr. Don Lehman said every 100 grams of protein, I think 60 grams of it. Becomes glucose, yeah. He'd almost have to like have them both on and have a debate because I think they both firmly believe what they believe. But I think that it would be really interesting to ask, you know, Don about his thoughts on Dr. Tom Ellen's work because it just came out, you know, in December. Actually, now it's coming up on a year, oh my gosh, it feels so recent to me. But it is the most recent research and it's the most extensive because most of the research that was done prior to that, they only measured rates of muscle protein synthesis for like four or five hours. And I also asked them, all right, so we know it takes 30 grams of protein to initiate muscle protein synthesis, right? Where this leucine threshold is triggered and the level of leucine in your blood rises by two to three grams. And this is what is this anabolic muscle building signal that the body receives. So I said, what happens when you eat five grams of protein or 10 grams of protein or 15 grams of protein? Like, are you still stimulating muscle protein synthesis, but just to a lesser degree? And he's like, that is legit the next 30 years of research. So you don't know the answer. It just seems that once you get to 30 grams of protein, that's when you get this big amplified signal and below that you just don't get a signal. Like nothing, maybe like something's happening, but it's nothing that we can pick up or that we haven't been able to pick up yet. So we'll see maybe in the future, we'll find out. But so far it seems that you really do need to hit at least 30 grams of protein. So going back to what we were just talking about, you know, if your goal is, if your target for the day is like 90 grams of protein, it's very easy to break that up into three times 30 grams, right? If it's a hundred grams of protein, like three times 33 or 34, and you can also do it all at one meal because you can have a hundred grams of protein at one meal and it's all going to just turn into circulating amino acids for your muscles to take

Melanie Avalon

up. Awesome. Well, I am so intrigued because I'm, I'm like dying to know I want to hear this. I'm debated out between those two people. I mean, I know for me, the reason I started, like the reason I came to high protein, you were talking about how you just like the taste of it, which is the same for me. And I, right after college, had this epiphany where I was like, oh, I could eat just lean protein and basically eat all I want. And I don't think it's going to turn into fat. So it was like my diet hack. That's when I fell into the rabbit hole of high protein. Okay. One more, one more protein question. And then I have some, we have some fun questions for you. I mean, these are fun, but we have some non-protein questions for you. Brooke says I have a 26 year old son who is vegetarian, more than likely not getting in the protein he needs and not sure he really wants to hear my opinion on being vegetarian. What would be the quickest and easiest way to share with him the importance of protein? I would love for him to listen to your podcast, but I know he won't. Maybe a specific research study, any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you. And I will say this is actually appropriate timing. So while we're recording this right now is the week I aired my episode with Dr. Michael Greger and literally had a moment where we talked about what he thought is the most anti-aging thing you can do. Or he was saying like the one thing that, oh, it was the one thing that affects all the aging pathways. And he was saying to eat a low protein diet. So to

Vanessa Spina

further confuse people. Okay, I just want to say one quick thing on this that I learned in the last year, there's something because this was one of those things like we talked about haunted me. There's one thing that people think of as mTOR and then there's good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and the simplest way to break it down is eating protein, good mTOR, doing resistant training, good mTOR. This is not bad mTOR. Over eating calories from fat and carb, bad mTOR, right? That's like you're signaling growth to the fat cells, you're signaling inflammation and growth to the wrong cells. Signaling growth to your muscle is not bad mTOR and I think that people need to start thinking of mTOR that way and this is like my own thing so like it's probably very unscientific but this is what I have gleaned from so many interviews is that there is good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and people are so confused because they've been told that mTOR is bad for longevity and I think it's such a disservice because no one should be avoiding the good mTOR, the eating protein mTOR and the resistance training muscle building mTOR. Does that make sense? Like you just don't want to be avoiding that because that's what's going to make you live longer because you're going to be stronger and more durable, right? And the longevity research that we've seen where they are suppressing mTOR, so much of it is rodent-based and it has nothing to do, like we're not putting mice like on strength training programs and like having them build muscle, right? Like it's, I think it's really really backwards and I hope in the coming years people start to disassociate the negativity they have around mTOR because there's good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and I really think that the bad mTOR is all just excess calories that's sending these growth signals but to the fat cells instead of the muscle cells. So just want to say that.

Melanie Avalon

really quickly about that. Yeah, please. I bet this is also related. I wrap a mice in, which is, you know, a longevity, potential longevity pharmaceutical compound. It acts on both mTOR complexes. But the reason people would low dose it for longevity versus the high dose is because then you can make it preferentially, hopefully just affect the quote good mTOR, not the bad mTOR, just a random fun fact. So I learned that recently. That's awesome. But yes.

Vanessa Spina

back to Brooke's question. This is such a tough question and I had to sit on it and think, okay, what would I do if Luca came to me one day and said he wanted to be vegan just like I did when I was 17 and said the same thing to my parents. And so, I mean, I don't think that's going to be so much an issue for me personally, which I know is not helpful, but every single day I say to Luca and my husband does this too, like eggs and beef and chicken, you know, protein is what makes you strong, especially things like eggs, which are so nutrient dense, liver, like all these things. And he has taken that in and he will like be eating his dinner and he'll like flex his muscles and he'd be like, mommy, like look how strong I am because like I'm eating all my eggs and I'm going to be vegetarian. I would not get upset about it because I think the research shows that you can trigger muscle protein synthesis as long as you get more protein from plant sources and you combine them. So I think some of the best combinations are like pea and rice protein together. And you just have to note that you need a little bit more. So usually you need closer to like, if you're, if you're having whey protein, you would have 30 grams in a serving. And if you're having a plant-based version, I would try to get 35 to 40 grams in a serving. So I wouldn't try to dissuade him from the lifestyle that he's chosen because he probably has his reasons for it. And it's going to be very difficult to, you know, turn someone around from that kind of thinking. And I know from my own experience, no one could have like deterred me from the path that I had chosen. I had to do it on my own, but I wish I had had this knowledge because when I went vegetarian, I was just eating carbs and fat. Like I didn't understand, you know, how to properly prioritize protein and eat it. And I think my journey would have been very different if I had, I also didn't understand about like really important things like B12 and choline, you know, so I would have kept eggs in. So if there's anything you can convince them to do is to at least have eggs. Cause if not, you know, you can supplement with that, but it takes a little bit of privilege to be able to afford those kinds of supplements. So not everyone's in a position to do that. So, you know, eggs are very affordable and I don't think they hurt the chickens. Like we have a lot of friends who like, and I say this as a former vegan, but like we have so many friends who have like chickens in their backyard and they get fresh eggs from them. And the chickens are happy AF and like the chickens lay the eggs and they eat the most amazing fresh eggs. And like Pete's cousins here, we go out to their, you know, farm and get their eggs from them. The chickens are great. Like they're no one's like, they're all about it. The chickens are all about it. They are like, they're all super happy. You know, I'm sure there are situations like with industrial farming and stuff where the chickens are, you know, literally in like really tight cages and stuff.

Vanessa Spina

But if you get the right kind of eggs, you can support, you know, the farms that you want to, or even, you know, go to a local rancher or farmer and get eggs directly from them or farmer's markets. Like there's ways to do it where you don't have to, you know, be harming any animals.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really glad that you took that direction with the answer. Like, that was a really amazing, you know, like, like you're letting, you're, you're supporting the child doing what they want and also optimizing it to the best of within those circumstances. So awesome.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I definitely think that that's what I would do. And I don't think you should be worried because as long as they, you know, get that protein in, which you can do, and the research really shows it's optimal from, you know, animal sources, but you can get it in from plant-based sources too.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. You might have a similar answer then for this. So Stephanie, she has a few like rapid fire questions, but the first one is a little bit less than rapid fire. She says, Oh no, Vanessa, no, with one, two, three, four, five, six, six, oh, and she says, mom question, I know you only have boys so far. How can I help my 17 year old daughter with weight loss? Would you take a similar approach with, with that? Where are you? Yeah. What would you do with weight loss with kids?

Vanessa Spina

I actually, I did a post on this a couple of years ago and it was like what I wish I could go back and tell my teenage self, you know, because that's really when I struggled. You know, I was going through so many changes, you know, hormonally, and I didn't know how to nourish myself properly. And I definitely was like overeating on the energy macros and I wasn't prioritizing protein. I didn't understand how it could help me feel satiated. So, I was really on this like struggle bus where I just wasn't getting enough protein and so I craved energy calories constantly. And it ended up, I was a very active kid, even so, I wasn't able to keep up with it. So, if I could go back, you know, I would have definitely related the importance of protein for satiety and optimizing my protein intake. And, you know, if you do it with animal proteins, like even whey protein, whey protein isolates doesn't have any fat in it. So, it's a great way to get protein in without adding extra calories. But if I knew that and I had just optimized my protein intake, I would have experienced what I experienced now, which is effortless leanness. I don't have to work at being lean anymore because I optimized my protein intake and I have this self-regulating appetite. So, if I would have taught myself that, you know, to really focus on adding in and I think adding in protein is easier than getting someone to cut back on other things or focusing on taking away and that protein, bumping up the protein, it just displaces the energy macros, right, naturally. So, I would have done that and I would have focused on resistance training, you know, instead of just doing cardio because you build that metabolically active tissue and you're able to, I think, shift the way that you look at your body in terms of, like, women were often, you know, told to be as small as possible and that's really, like, the beauty ideal. And I've learned since then, you know, there's a lot of different ways to have a beautiful body and to me, a fit, healthy body with some muscle, I think, is a new beauty standard that women are starting to embrace and understand more. So, you know, that's something that I would have tried to convey to myself, you know, being younger and probably what I would do also if I had a daughter.

Melanie Avalon

I love that. I love the concept of, you know, focusing on what you can have and what nourishes you and supports you and builds a strong body rather than restricting per se or what you're cutting out. Okay, she has other rapid fire questions. I think they're sort of rapid. Why did you move to Europe initially?

Vanessa Spina

We actually decided to go to Prague for a year and just travel, just travel around. And we like did that and really, really enjoyed it. And we mostly were just traveling around Europe because as you know, once you're over in Europe, it's like really inexpensive to fly to Italy and to Spain and to France. And you can really explore and you can even hop on like the train and go all over. And so we did a ton of exploring and a ton of traveling. And all of a sudden, like COVID came along. And we had to kind of decide what to do. And I got pregnant. So it didn't make sense for us. Time to camp out. Yeah, it didn't make sense for us to like uproot everything, you know, during the pregnancy. And then once we had our first son, Luca, you know, we really realized like how child friendly and amazing the culture is in Europe is really like children are front and center and really, really embraced. And that's not to say they aren't in North America, but I would say it's a little bit more so here where like there's a playground on every corner. There's constant activities for children and for families. And it's like you can't walk 10 feet without bumping into a stroller. It's just so many people with children and families. So it's just a very, in terms of the culture, we find it's a great time to be here for us. And then I got pregnant again. So, you know, anyone who's had kids knows like it's hard to do any like big moves or changes also in that time. So that's kind of why we're still in Europe. And, you know, we're hoping at some point, you know, we'll figure out like our next, like our, our plan. But right now, just with like children, we love being over here, although we really do miss family and friends, but we're very fortunate that they come to visit a lot and we get to visit them too. So we'll see what happens in the coming years. But it's just been a really exciting adventure that kind of got extended with COVID. Yeah, we'll see what comes in the next years.

Melanie Avalon

Not the same situation, but kind of similar for me. I moved to Atlanta and I was just gonna come temporarily and it was right before COVID and then COVID happened. And I was like, oh, I'm just gonna camp out here for a little bit. Okay, her next rapid fire, number one way to get rid of aches and pains in an almost 60 year old.

Vanessa Spina

I would go for keto. I think keto has been proven scientifically to be one of the most anti-inflammatory diets and lifestyles. And I, one of the things I mentioned at the top of the episode is when I was eating more carbs, I was feeling achy. And it's not to say I had any kind of like full blown medical condition or anything like arthritis or anything like that. But I just felt achy and I didn't feel good in my body. I also felt really headache-y often. And I hadn't felt that way since when I was like pre-keto doing high carb, I felt that way all the time. Like I just felt like I always had a headache or I felt like aches in my body. And going on keto removed all of that for me. And I think it has to do with what a low inflammatory state it creates for people. And there's a lot of research on this. Like that it puts the ketogenic diet and the very low carb intake puts people in this very low inflammation state. So it could be something to research and look into and maybe talk to your doctor about.

Melanie Avalon

I would echo that. I would say looking at the dietary choices because it's really shocking. People's body could react with pain and inflammation to certain foods, and they might have no idea until they realize what those foods are. So looking at the food choices can be huge. I know you're talking about keto specifically, but I'm just saying like in general as well, like trying to pinpoint your trigger foods. Also, I would throw in Avalon X syrup peptase. It's amazing for all of that. Okay. Have you tried pickleball? And then she says, I will miss you. That is so, so cute.

Vanessa Spina

I haven't tried it yet but I love tennis and I love racquet sports so like I see people doing it all the time on different TV shows and I'm like I really want to try that it looks super fun. It hasn't taken off as much in Europe as it has in like the US and Australia and stuff so maybe it's coming but people are really big into tennis here so who knows it could be the next big thing and I will miss you too but you can catch me on the optimal protein podcast anytime or find me on social media and I'll be there.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. Also related to Europe, sort of. Leslie says, I've always been curious, how many languages does Vanessa speak?

Vanessa Spina

Well, I wanna be really truthful because in terms of fluency, I would say English and French. I'm fluent in English and French. And I went to French school until I was in grade nine and it's like my family heritage as well. So my dad is French. So those I can speak fluently. And then Mandarin and Spanish I'm conversational in and I can read and write to a certain level. It's not fluent. I'm not saying I'm fluent.

Melanie Avalon

How do you say intermittent fasting in Mandarin, do you know?

Vanessa Spina

I've never looked that up. Now I want to. That's so funny. It's such a specific language that

Melanie Avalon

How about French? La faste interment.

Vanessa Spina

French? Oh man, there's got to be a term for it because they have all these like specific terms, high protein, they call hyper protein, like hyper protein.

Melanie Avalon

like epic. Wait, what is it? What's the phrase?

Vanessa Spina

It's hyper protein, so it's like hyper protein. Okay, okay, okay, yeah. I bet they have like a special term for it. I want to know now also. Okay, it's the same thing. It's to fast intermittent. Makes sense. That tracks. Yeah, that tracks. I thought maybe they would have like their own term. In Chinese, it's jian xie xin jin xie. Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm impressed you could say it. That's really impressive. Did you read that from Chinese characters just now?

Vanessa Spina

No, I use the pinyin, which is like the... Oh, it gave you like the phonetic? Yeah, it's like the phonetic pinyin is the phonetic version or interpretation of the characters. Some of the characters I knew like xie and shu, but I didn't know jian, qing. So like I said, I'm not fluent in Chinese and I don't speak it regularly enough, but because I spent so many years living there, I did pick up a lot. And then when I went to university, that was my elective. So I took Mandarin, but I really miss it. Like sometimes I just go on Duolingo and like I do some Mandarin because I really, yeah, I miss speaking it. It's a beautiful language.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. That's impressive. That's impressive. I'm impressed. Okay.

Vanessa Spina

And I'm learning Czech, so that'll be my fifth.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's cool. That's cool, that's amazing. Anna wants to know, does Vanessa have plans to write another book on her high protein keto lifestyle she's been doing? Would love that.

Vanessa Spina

In the works, I am working on it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, really? I didn't even know that.

Vanessa Spina

Oh my goodness. Yeah, I am working on it. I don't want anyone to I don't want to make any like announcements because it's it's challenging to get anything done these days The two babies but and the homeschooling which is like another reason why I'm just you know Continuing to do this was was not feasible and I as much as I'm like seriously sad about it And I'm really gonna miss this time, especially hanging out with you and all of our listeners But it is something that I do have planned and and I am working on so yeah, stay tuned It feels fitting that it should you know come out at some point

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, well, that'll be amazing. I will be there front row supporting. What about you? Oh, another book. I actually, actually, I did meet somebody recently and we might wanna do a book together. Forgot about that. So we shall see. There's just so many, like you were just saying, there's so many things that you have to prioritize. Okay, so two questions about red light for you. Leslie says, I have and love Vanessa's red light therapy mask. I would love to know what her protocol is with the mask, which mode and duration, et cetera. Thank you. And then Sarah says, I would also love to know a protocol for red light panel, not the mask. There are multiple ways to use it, but I'm unsure where to start. And I said not the mask negatively. The mask is great. So what are your protocols for both of these things?

Vanessa Spina

I actually wear the mask myself every week. It's the only way that I can really be consistent with my red light therapy because otherwise, I just don't have the time to sit in front of a panel. And one of the ways that you get results from red light therapy, it usually takes eight to 12 weeks to start seeing results, but you have to be consistent. And that means at least like four to five sessions a week. So for me, the mask is invaluable because I just strap it on and I can be hands-free so I can do other things. Like I can't operate heavy machinery, but I can like sit on the couch with my kids and watch them and also interact with them as opposed to sitting in front of a panel, like anyone who's done that knows you can't really like do much and you can't really see much. And you definitely can't be like on the couch or anything like that. So it's very helpful for me. I also just started wearing the neck piece, which is something that I'm working on adding to my collection. So I've had so many requests for people who want the neck, the neck piece. Yeah, so it's like you've got the face and then there's a neck and chest attachment. So it straps behind your neck. It's doing the front?

Melanie Avalon

of your neck? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And your chest. Would that do your thyroid then? Maybe. Yeah, it could. That's the reason I first started doing red light was either for hair growth or thyroid or maybe both at the same time. So I used to shine it on my thyroid.

Vanessa Spina

Okay, I made a reel. I'm going to send it to you right now. I made a reel last week with me trying to get my red light therapy done with Damien and Luca crawling on me. And I'm wearing the neck piece so you can see what it looks like. But I've just started using it because I'm like, while I'm doing this, why don't I also do the neck? You know, because it's it's also I mean, even really think about I did it more just for like, keeping the skin, you know, collagen rich and elastin rich. But yeah, so I wear the mask a lot. I use it way more than I do the panels. Now, if I didn't have kids, or I didn't have little kids, I probably be sitting in front of the panels because the panels are more powerful in terms of the power irradiance. But the mask helps me actually get it done. And to me, that's better than nothing, right? So helps me to be consistent. So the crystal mask that you have, and thank you for purchasing it, has six different modes. And the one that I usually use is mode six, because it's red and near infrared. So it's got 630 nanometers and 850 nanometers. And the other modes, like mode five and four, they basically just cycle through like mode five is like orange and a near infrared mode four is like combined, the red and near infrared. So I usually do mode six. And I usually do it for about 20 minutes. And that's like 20 minutes a day. And for anyone who doesn't have the mask or doesn't have a red light therapy mask, and is using a panel, I usually have found that most people in the research, most people start seeing results when they do about 20 minutes a day. Depending on the body part, there's different dosing. So you want to actually refer to your red light therapy panels manuals, like in my manuals, I've put the exact dosing in terms of minutes for each different like thing that you're trying to accomplish. So like the distance from the panel and the amount of time and it's all specific to the irradiance of power radiance of my panels. So that's why you have to be specific with the panels that you're using, because if they have less power radiance, you may need to be closer, or do it for longer, or if they have more power radiance, which I doubt because mine have some of the highest power radiance on the market. But if that sounds like I'm bragging about it, I didn't mean it to sound that way. But they truly do have quite a lot of power radiance.

Melanie Avalon

I'm supporting, I'm, I'm, I'm, what's the word, confirming this information? It's just facts.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, like your panel should feel like a day at the beach when you're in front of it, if it's really effective. And that's like a little takeaway. And you need to know the specifics for your panel because you want to avoid overdoing it because there's also, you know, this sort of bell curve, right, like where you can get, you don't get results if you do too little. And you also don't get results if you do too much, because there's something called the biphasic dose response. So you want to hit at that sweet spot and you need to know it for the specific panel that you're using. So if it's not in your manual, you can probably correspond with the company that sold you the panels. But I have specifically in my manuals every like the exact time, the distance, because red light really is a vitamin. So you want to think of it as dosing, you know, what dose do you need for each specific thing? And yeah, there's a lot of research and different guides available online as well that you know, people can find if they they just want to know how much you do. But usually you don't want to do more than 20 minutes per day. So like if you're trying to target different different areas of your body, you're always going to get systemic benefits no matter where you do it on your body. But if you want to target different parts of your body, then you know, you want to switch it up. So like if you're doing your thighs on Monday, for 10 minutes and your face and neck, you know, then Tuesday, you could do like your abdomen and you could do like your arms or something like that. If you're using it for like muscle recovery, muscle building, because it's really good for recovery and repair, you know, post resistant training, it's good for conditioning your body before exercise. If you have like stubborn body fat areas, I mean, there's so many different things that you can use it for. So you really want to know like the specifics with your panel, but that's what I do with that with the the tonelux crystal mask.

Melanie Avalon

Just a really quick clarification question. You said you don't get the benefits if it's too low of a dosing, also if it's too much. Is it that you don't get any benefits if it's too much or that you stop getting more benefits? Yeah, you stop.

Vanessa Spina

don't get any. You undo the benefits? Yeah, which is really what's so tricky about it. And it's also really interesting because there's this amazing Danish study where they were using this red light therapy on women who had been treatment resistant to becoming pregnant. And they use this amazing red light therapy panel that was like blasting their abdomen with like 20,000 joules of light, like just a red light, just so much. So much that my immediate thought was like, how did they not trigger the biphasic dose response? Because this was so much. And yet, like 50% of the women in the study managed to get pregnant and carry their pregnancy to term. So it was really amazing. And Denmark is one of the countries with Japan that's been investing a lot in red light therapy research because they have like really low fertility rates. So this research really astonished me. And I had a red light therapy expert who's also like a quantum physics expert, quantum biology expert. And I said, how did they not trigger the biphasic dose response? And she says, she believes that people are so red light deficient, that it's actually pretty hard to overdo it. And that she believes in that specific scenario that those people maybe in that study were just so deficient that the 20,000 joules was not too much for them. So joules is the unit of light when you're measuring the doses, which is what I was talking about earlier, like with the manuals or understanding your panels, it should be broken down by joules, you know, how many joules you're getting, which is a measure of like the surface area and the power radiance of the device and the proximity to it. But yeah, a lot of research says that if you get too much, you get no results as well. But I think it's an area that we probably need more research in because we don't fully know what that is yet. But there's research out there which does show like what a good target is.

Melanie Avalon

wow okay that's really shocking to me but really helpful and by the way i saw your video it's so cute with your kids oh my goodness it's so interesting that they're not scared of you you know like i don't know i mean you look no you don't you don't look scary i mean i would be a little bit scared if i was a child

Vanessa Spina

I know. And it's funny because like Pete, the first time he walked in, I had the mask on. He was like, you get scared. No, he's like, you look kind of cute. Like it's kind of a cute mask. And I was like, I was joking about how like a lot of the masks, the red light, every mask are creepy looking like Jason, you know, Halloween.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's not it's not super creepy. I want to clarify I'm just saying like you don't look like a human You know so and I was always scared of robots when I was little so yeah

Vanessa Spina

Mine, I think, is kind of cute looking. I'm just gonna say. I've tested a lot of masks and some of them are like, they look like really creepy. So I think mine is okay. But yeah, I thought Damien, because he's 11 months old, I thought he might be taken aback but he just like smiled at me. He's all about it. Yeah, he was just like, he was lifting it up and he loves to play with the room.

Melanie Avalon

No wait, Lucas, Lucas is the one that's like really playing and laughing, right?

Vanessa Spina

That's Damien. He's 11 months and Luca is three.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, sorry, I'm getting oh my gosh. Sorry. I'm having a brain fart moment

Vanessa Spina

No, I know you know who Luca is.

Melanie Avalon

I know. Yeah, I do. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina

we're here. Yeah, maybe neither of them were, were scared. The first time I put it on Luca was like, what's that? But he wasn't, he wasn't scared of it. But maybe if it looked more creepy, like they would be so it's

Melanie Avalon

So cute. Oh my goodness. But you see the neck attachment, right? I do. Yes. I do. Yes. I got distracted by your cute children. Okay. One last question for you. And then a closing thought. Janelle says, what are Vanessa's Christmas plans last Christmas? Wait, it was last Christmas. You were in the hospital.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, we were just talking about that at dinner. We were saying because Damien's almost a year he's going to turn a year, you know, right before Christmas.

Melanie Avalon

When's his birthday again?

Vanessa Spina

like right before Christmas, December 19th. So we spent, and we were talking with my parents this weekend and they were like, do you remember last Christmas, we brought Christmas dinner to the hospital and we had Christmas dinner in your hospital room because we ended up staying at the hospital for two weeks because Damien had some complications. He's doing incredible now. So, you know, all of that ended up, you know, not having any long-term effects, thankfully, but we did spend Christmas in the hospital recovering. We were there for two weeks. And so my mom made Christmas dinner and brought it with my dad. It was the cutest thing ever. Like they had all these bags and like oven mitts, you know, and they drove it all to the hospital with Luca. And, you know, we had like a little square table in our hospital room and we had like a pretty nice hospital room, so we had a really cozy Christmas. And the hospital was filled with Christmas trees and Christmas lights. So it was, you know, a difficult time, but also one of the best times of our lives. So it was really nice reminiscing on that. I can't believe it's been a year ago, but we're planning on spending Christmas at home with our family. So that's going to be really exciting because it's been a while since we've been home. So we're flying back to the US and we'll be there for a little bit. And yeah, I'm really excited to be with everybody with all of like Luca and Damien's cousins and yeah, just to enjoy some really quality Christmas time. And I'm also ready for some time off. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

where are you going to be actually and this airs this is perfect because this airs December 23rd so a few days before Christmas I will be on this day Merry Christmas I know Merry Christmas I will be my family actually convinced me to fly to Sanibel Island in Florida oh my gosh I know for how long I'm gonna fly there on the 23rd and then be there the 24th 25th and then fly back the 26th that's really exciting are you excited I'm working on the travel skills um yes traveling is not my favorite thing and also I wanted to be cold at Christmas and like the beach seems like a different vibe but you know what I'll be there Elsa eternal winter I know and I need my snow no I am I am really I'm really excited about that so we will both be traveling for Christmas ah okay well one more one more comment from Alice she says Vanessa will be greatly missed but she is so busy with her family and her other podcast is there a new partner in the works and so I was trying to decide if I should announce I think I think we'll just make it a surprise because oh that's fun yeah I think I think that's what I was trying to think of that's what we did when Cynthia started and when you started and I think so do you remember if we announced you before hmm or was it like surprise like on the first day

Vanessa Spina

I think you did because I think I remember you like talking about me with Cynthia and Cynthia was like saying things, nice things.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's correct. I think I'm gonna make it a surprise this year. So we have a few episodes, like special episodes coming up after this with some special guests and then new co-hosts will be here. So yeah, I'm excited for you guys. Me too. I'm really excited. Definitely a new chapter. It's gonna be a new, kind of like we were talking about each co-host bringing their own, you know, special thing to the show. I think it's going to be a completely new spin on things. Still, still very much intermittent fasting, just a completely new perspective, completely new.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, it's like you're going back to the roots of the podcast, but also going to completely new territory.

Melanie Avalon

that's a good analogy or whatever that would be in words yes but in any case this was okay this is so amazing I'm so glad we did this episode yeah as a fun fact for listeners so because we we made the decision about Vanessa leaving and we'd already recorded all of our episodes and then Vanessa's like we should do a goodbye episode so I'm really glad we did this it felt so cathartic and you know I'm like really glad that we did this and I just appreciate you so so much I adore you I love you podcast bestie forever we'll have to bring you back for a reunion or a special episode in the future

Vanessa Spina

I would love that. This was the most beautiful goodbye episode that I could ever ask for. I feel like it just tied a pretty bow on all of it. And again, I was, I had been so honored to be your co-host. It was an incredible experience. And I learned so much from you. I just, it's, it's something I will always cherish. And I also cherish our friendship and I love you as well. And I love our listeners. And I'm so thankful that I got to be a part of your lives. You can always find me anytime on the Optimal Protein podcast. I am really excited to continue my work there. If you ever want to come over and, you know, listen to me talk about protein and optimizing that. But I'm so honored that I was able to be here. So thank you so much for, you know, inviting me to, to join you. And I'm so, so, so excited for you and for listeners of the podcast for this new co-host. I think listeners are going to be absolutely thrilled. So it's really exciting.

Melanie Avalon

I could not agree anymore. And I also learned so, so much from you. It was an amazing, incredible, beautiful chapter, which I will reflect fondly on until the day I die. Not to be dramatic, but yeah, this was amazing. So Merry Christmas to you and happy holidays.

Vanessa Spina

Merry Christmas. Yes. Happy holidays to all the listeners. I hope everyone has a wonderful break and yeah, it gets, I'm sure everyone's going to be ready and excited to go with intermittent fasting starting in the new year or so.

Melanie Avalon

That's like the time that's like the time to really jump in when people are feeling it with the motivation for sure.

Vanessa Spina

Yes. And there's nothing like intermittent fasting for a good reset. I can speak from recent experience.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Well, I will talk to you later.

Vanessa Spina

you in the future. Okay, sounds good. Thank you so much listeners. Bye for now.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much for listening to the Interimism Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Nov 17

Episode 396: Coffee, Low Cholesterol, Histamine Intolerance, Fasted Workouts, Flushing, Inflammation, Red Light Therapy, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 396 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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Listener Q&A: Nicole - Hi ladies! I have a question regarding facial flushing during fasting.

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Listener Q&A: Jodi - I appreciate your input on how to start with such a crazy life with work and kids.

Listener Q&A: Nicole - What are your biggest regrets?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 396 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 396 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. Vanessa, can I ask you some questions? Sure. You drink coffee, right? Yes. I'm curious, in your coffee drinking habits, what is most important to you for the coffee? Is it the flavor, the health benefits, the antioxidants, the mold content?

Vanessa Spina:
I would say flavor and low mold content. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
That's what you.

Vanessa Spina:
Cause we, yeah, we have an espresso machine, so like we grind everything fresh. I keep everything sealed. I have a vacuum sealer that I use specifically for my coffee beans. So when I open it and fill the hopper, then I can reseal the bag and there's zero air in there and it keeps them super fresh. So I think that and the, we grind it on the spot and the flavor is really important. So I usually get, is it a hundred percent Arabica? I usually try to get that and yeah, and low mold content, I think is the most important thing for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm having an epiphany. Is that little hole on the bag of coffee beans so that you can vacuum seal it back?

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe, maybe there's some machines that work like that. I have like a vacuum sealer that I just take bags and I make my own seal and then I fill it with whatever and then I vacuum seal it after. I got it first when I was doing carnivore because, you know, we would get like these huge stakes divided up and then I would put it in there and seal each one individually or sometimes I would make like smoked brisket or something and then just seal it in there and it lasts forever and the fridge so you don't have to freeze it but then if you vacuum seal it and freeze it then it lasts like literally forever so yeah I got it then but now I use it to keep everything fresh and it's amazing for coffee beans so yeah those are I mean I think extra nutrients would be probably bonus.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay i'm pulling people in my coffee development adventures i had a vacuum sealer i was. Worried about the plastic like ceiling things in plastic but then i realized. Like when i order these frozen things are already in plastic just no easy answer with plastics why can i see a link glass.

Vanessa Spina:
Develop that. Yeah, something is coming, I'm sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so how are things in your world? Thank you for the the input. I'm as I gather data

Vanessa Spina:
course. Yeah, things are amazing. I was just at the playground a few hours ago with Luca and I was doing this tandem zip line with him. I posted a video of it on my Instagram, but it's this new thing that we've been doing. There's a zip line at his playground. They have them at a lot of the playgrounds here and he usually goes by himself. And then one day I saw this other mom doing it and I was like, wow, that's crazy. She's doing the zip line with her we tried it and it was so much fun. So I get on it on the zip line and then he gets on on top of me and then we launch off together and we like stare into each other's eyes like screaming. So funny.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Is it on? I love Ziplines or I love them when I was little. Is it on like a hill or anything? Or is it over a height?

Vanessa Spina:
a little bit. It's on a slope and it's just, you know, like it's like a big tire. It's got like a bunch of tires that like break it and stuff. It's pretty well made. Yeah, it's just so much fun. So we were doing that this morning. My husband came down with my mother-in-law while we were doing him and they were laughing and they took a video of us doing it. So I put it on my Instagram. Yeah, it's just a typical day for me now. It's like a zip lining in the morning and then working in the afternoon and evening. I just feel really blessed that I have the energy to keep up with my boys because they're very energetic and do fun things like that with them. It's awesome. How are things with you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm watching your video right now. Oh my goodness. That looks so fun. Oh, this is so fun. Oh, and it looks so European

Vanessa Spina:
the backdrop of the architecture.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm getting flashbacks because we used to always go to Germany growing up and we'd do stuff like that and we do like there were so many seesaws in Europe and my sister and brother and I would just have a blast. Like you'd have to like load up the tire on one side with rocks.

Vanessa Spina:
It's so much fun!

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I think those don't fly today in the U.S.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was going to say I was talking to actually, yeah, Dr. Grant Tinsley last week about it because he has kids. And I was like, yeah, we were doing the zipline this morning because it's also ziplining that morning. And he was like, huh? And I was like, oh, you probably don't have those at your playgrounds. There's a lot more risky things here, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember even when I was in elementary school at the playground, part of the playground was off limits and this was when I was like a little kid, so it's probably all off limits now. Good times, good times. I remember I had a friend that had a zip, she had like a massive, I don't even remember who it was. I just remember going there and that their backyard, they had a massive sloped backyard and they had a massive zip line. They went from the top to the bottom like long, fast and I was like, this is like having a roller coaster in your backyard. This is cool. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So that is awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. What's new with you? I don't know. I had a really good interview yesterday. Do you know Dr. Jack Wolfson, the paleocardiologist? No. He's yeah, the paleocardiologist, but it was a really fun conversation because he's literally the thing I'm probably most haunted by. Let me think if that's true. The main things I'm most haunted by in a diet, nutrition wars and opinions are protein intake and longevity, ironically enough because we talk about protein all the time, and lowering Apobee and LDL artificially with statins for longevity as advocated by Peter Atiyah. And so it was a deep, it was funny because it was a deep dive into like cholesterol and LDL and Apobee and he's very anti-statins and he's also very anti-Peter Atiyah, even though he's never listened to any of Peter Atiyah stuff, which so literally half the episode was me like defending Peter Atiyah to him. And I was like, I don't know that this is a productive conversation, but Oh man, so yeah, I find it interesting when people comment on other people's work when they haven't read their work, you know, so where do you fall on the, on that topic?

Vanessa Spina:
The first one, I mean, I have been bringing it up lately on the podcast and how I kind of had it all wrong. And I really thought that, you know, you had to sort of try to balance out all the mTOR, but I learned from Dr. Kurt Escobar, it's really dysregulated mTOR that we want to avoid and not the mTOR from eating protein and doing resistance training. Like that's not the mTOR that has negative impact on longevity. It actually is the opposite. And how there's these relationships that are so complex, like how mTOR even initiates autophagy and everyone thinks it's only AMPK, you know? So I kind of had it all wrong and I feel really excited and empowered to have learned that because I no longer feel like I have to somehow balance out all this mTOR that I'm doing right now because I personally am so focused right now on building as much muscle mass as I can in the years that I can build muscle mass because you get to a point where you're basically just maintaining. And I'm so excited being in this stage of my life. Like I'm lifting heavier and heavier weights, like I'm pushing harder in my workouts, like I'm experimenting with, I mentioned adding in that other protein meal. So I'm now doing three protein meals a day. I'm getting some great results from it. I'm just all about experimentation. So I'm trying this out and I'm going to assess at the end how I'm feeling with it. But I really, really like it. And I just feel like that used to haunt me and now it doesn't, you know? And for years, I was just so focused on like fasting and AMPK and, you know, this is what we need for autophagy. And yet there's so much autophagy that you get from exercise. And you can see it in people. I mean, when they look at the mitochondria of people who are lifelong exercisers, their mitochondria, they retain way more of their mitochondria, much, much, much, much more. And the capacity of those mitochondria is also maintained way more. And you see it in people who work out that they look younger. And I think it comes from metabolic health. And, you know, I was afraid that too much protein and resistant training would age me earlier. What's the word for it? Premature aging, but it's actually the opposite. And I think that's really, yeah, it's something that you saw at me and no longer does. Like I now have a different view of it. And I think there's just a lot of confusion out there on that topic.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever measured or do you measure your IGF-1? I have.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I have before I haven't I haven't done a lot of testing lately just because I'm everything with pregnancy throws things off So hmm. Yeah, that's so true sort of waiting until I'm back to baseline back to a baseline

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that makes sense. I've only done it like a few times, measured that, but I feel like whenever I did it was really high. But then it's like I'm measuring it, you know, I don't know, probably at a time when it would be high.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I think that there are going to be tests coming out in the very near future that are going to help us assess our biological age based on mitochondrial function and the quality and function of our mitochondria that are going to be really, really insightful because you're going to be able to actually tell if things that you're doing are working for you, like if supplements that you're taking are making a difference. And I know, yeah, we've sort of been circling around this topic for a while, but I'm really excited for those things that'll help measure and quantify these things more.

Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much. Do you have thoughts on the, like the super low LDL APOB and statins and stuff?

Vanessa Spina:
know, I mean, what is your current opinion on on

Melanie Avalon:
Well, basically the summary is low fat vegan people will say that, you know, you want super low LDL and I need to clarify that LDL is there's like LDL C, which is like all the different LDLs, when there's LDL P, which is Apo B, which is the particularly part that can create CBD issues. But in any case, there's that camp, then there's like the low carb higher fat camp where they're like, oh, LDL can be it's totally fine. If it's really high, as long as you don't have inflammation and you have high HDL, then there's people in between like Peter who says, who's also is pro, you know, a diet that's, I mean, not vegan, like, that's more similar to a diet that I would probably follow. He thinks, I don't know if this is the exact quote, but he thinks for the ultimate longevity, I think your Apo B would need to be below like 30, which is only achievable with pharmaceuticals. So like he's on statins for longevity. And he has a history, I think.

Vanessa Spina:
My opinion, because there is also in the keto space a lot of talk and rhetoric around lean mass hyper responders and that kind of thing, I don't think it's a good thing to have really high cholesterol, even if people are doing keto. So I think if people are running into issues where they have really high cholesterol, I think it could be dangerous even if someone is doing keto. But I prefer to cut back on fat at that point and switch out fats for healthier ones. And I say healthier with trepidation because I don't mean to not eat any saturated fat, but to me that's like, you know, if someone is doing carnivore or something and they're eating a lot of saturated fat and they're adding a lot of butter to things and, you know, just adding a lot of fat to their diet, you know, just sticking to eating the whole foods in their whole food form, like whole eggs, steak, you know, maybe having some leaner cuts of steak, but not adding butter to the steak kind of thing, not adding extra fat to things and even switching out some fats for I think like olive oil. I tend to use mostly in my cooking coconut oil, but I don't use a lot of it. Like I use a spray. I don't like, you know, coat everything in oil, even though I eat low carbs. So I do think that, you know, just like you don't want to have really high circulating blood sugar, I think you don't want to have really high triglycerides or really high cholesterol. But I personally wouldn't go on something like statins for that. I would just try to do it naturally.

Melanie Avalon:
We're pretty similar there with those thoughts. I do find it really interesting. I like interviewing because a lot of the vegan people will say that you can't eat animal protein and have, you know, low cholesterol levels and mine's really low. So I always like interviewing them and being like, I eat pounds. Same. Yeah. I'm like, I eat pounds and pounds of protein and, you know, I have really low levels. So that's not quite accurate.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you tell Gregor that?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm pretty sure I did in my lost episode. Oh, did you ever re-record it? No, we're recording in October again. Okay, awesome. It was nice to have like a breather in between because it's hard to like redo it like right away, you know.

Vanessa Spina:
I would be, yeah, I would want to either do it right away, like the next day or have a breather.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Well, like the next week would be pretty rough. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Like, yeah, do it like now.

Vanessa Spina:
I feel that way like sometimes and like I'll have I had a guest once that I had been preparing for their interview for weeks you know reading their book really detailed notes and I was so ready on that day and something came up it was definitely something important having to do with their families they couldn't record that day and I was like yeah we need to do this like either tomorrow or in two months because I can't like come back on this.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. I'm about to interview. Finally, Dr. Sarah Gottfried. I think we've rescheduled.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love her like multiple times. She bought my keto program. Like when I was first like starting in the keto space, she has my book too. And she showed it to me when I was interviewing her and I almost started crying. She's just so wonderful, not because she bought my stuff. She's just a wonderful human. And yeah, I'm excited for you to interview her.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really excited because I ran into her at the biohacking conference and she knew who I was. I have interviewed her, but it was years and years ago, so I didn't think she would remember me.

Vanessa Spina:
That's really cool.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I remember I had that moment with the book. It's because I sent it to him, but when I interviewed Rob the first time he had my book on his desk, I literally wanted to like cry.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it means a lot to you as an author.

Melanie Avalon:
It really does. So, okay. Shall we jump into some things for today? Yes, I would love to. All right. Would you like to read the first question from Nicole?

Vanessa Spina:
So our first question comes to us from Nicole, and the subject is flushing. Hi, ladies. I have a question regarding facial flushing during fasting. I'm a long time faster. In the beginning, I did get facial flushing at the end of my fast. I didn't experience it for a while, but it just started up again. I fast about 16 plus hours, usually opening my window around 230. Every day between 12 and two, I get really flushed, and my face and neck get really red. These are not hormonal flashes, as I have experienced those, and they feel totally different. They gradually disappear after a bit. I'm not dehydrated. I haven't changed anything I eat, and I clean fast. These flushes happen way after I've had coffee. I don't take any medication for hours before. Sometimes they are accompanied by a tension headache. I opened my eating window earlier one day and no flush, but to be honest, I hate not fasting. I plan to keep on doing it. Any insight on why this happens? Some info. I'm 45, lower carb, definitely not keto. Recently, a month ago, was on herbals for an infection. The flushes seem to start after that. I would love your thoughts. There are two emojis of someone really hot. They're flushing. Super cute.

Melanie Avalon:
It's the anger emoji and then like the hot emoji. We love emojis, all the emojis all the time. Well, thank you so much, Nicole, for your question. So there are a lot of things that could be going on here. I mean, it could be things like blood sugar or your adrenals. My thought though, the first thing that came to me, and then especially the fact that you were recently on herbals for an infection and that's when it started. It could be a histamine situation, especially since it's something you've experienced in the past. So basically, his histamine is a chemical in our body. It's released during inflammatory responses, during stress. It's high in a lot of foods, it can be released from the gut microbiome. And some people are just like their histamine bucket gets filled up and they get histamine sensitive and they get symptoms from it, like flushing, honestly, like flushing allergy type symptoms. And so the fact that you've had flushing in the past and then didn't, and then it came again after an infection with herbals, I would bet that you're probably sensitive to histamine and changes in your environment, both externally and or inside of your body are creating periods of your life where it's becoming a thing. And the reason I would guess that it goes away when you eat is because your body's inflammatory response immune system, like the majority of our immune system is in our gut. So once you start eating, it's kind of like switching focus a little bit to your food. If you had some sort of change in your gut bacteria during that infection and with herbals, which is highly likely, it could have created a different balance of histamine producing bacteria in your gut that are producing histamine. The effects of it are appearing during your fast. I mean, a way you could figure out if it's histamine, there are a few things you could do. So I actually interviewed Dr. Becky Campbell on my show for, she has like a histamine diet book. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes. You could try, there's a few things you could try. If you wanted to just see if that's literally the reason, I'm not saying to take allergy meds ongoing, but you could take one for a day and see if it, if the flashes don't happen, the flushing, if the flushing doesn't happen, then it's probably histamine because the histamine would be blocking it. So for example, I mean, you could take a Benadryl that would probably knock you out. You could take like a Claritin or a Zyrtec for a day and see what happens. You could also ongoing try a low histamine diet for a bit and kind of clear out some of that histamine from your system that could have a really, really beneficial effect. And also just working on your gut microbiome health in general could be really helpful. So through your food choices, I don't know if you talk about what you eat, but favoring, you know, a whole foods diet. Oh, you said you're low carb, but definitely not keto. Yep. You know, favoring a whole foods diet, a probiotic I really, really love is seed. I'm obsessed with them. They have a lot of science behind their probiotic strains and I've noticed a lot of great effects on my digestion. And there are certain strains that are histamine producing versus not. And I haven't noticed any issues with seed. So if you go to seed.com/Ifpodcast you can use the coupon code to five I have podcasts to get 25% off, but yes, I look at, I really would bet that this is a histamine thing going on. Do you have thoughts? Vanessa? I think you.

Vanessa Spina:
covered that wonderfully, definitely had the same thought. It could be related to the herbs, especially if that's when it started. And that would be the simplest explanation. So it sounds like it could be something that, you know, your body could still be working through, but I wonder if you could talk to that provider who had you on that and see if there's something going on, or if they might have some insight into that, the practitioner who had you on these herbals.

Melanie Avalon:
What's also really interesting is it sounds like she's thinking it was the herbals, but it also could have been the infection. Like, cause that would have all been at the same time. So, you know, it could have been the infection that caused this change. I really would bet something happened though, with your gut microbiome that is having residual effects from here. And like I said, the fact that you've had this in the past before says to me that you're probably just sensitive to histamine changes again, it might not be histamine, but that's what I put my, my, my money on and oh, a resource. You can get my app food sense guide. It's a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods for 11 different compounds in food that people often react to and have, you know, reactions to. So things like FODMAPs and lectins and gluten oxalates, it includes histamine. So definitely download that. There's a free trial it's at MelanieAvalon.com/foodsenseguide. Oh, and I think it's like free ongoing. It's just, if you subscribe, you get more features. So yeah, download that, look at the histamine foods, see what you're eating. I would definitely try a low histamine diet. Okey dokey. Shall we go on to our next question? Yeah, sounds great. So our next question comes from Heather. She says, I'm trying to get back to fasting, but I do a CrossFit type gym at 6 AM. That's so early. She said, I tried not to eat before once and I got dizzy after. Do you have any tips?

Vanessa Spina:
I'll be not going to like my tip but my tip would be to eat before you go because I tried and this is something I'll be doing this fall again now that is the fall but when we go on holiday to Greece I tend to do a different kind of fasting I call it circadian rhythm fasting and I have breakfast quite early I usually around seven and then I fast until dinner and I love it and it works really well and so I just want to provide a reminder that there's lots of different ways to fast and I was getting great results I was getting more deeply into ketosis when I was doing that I'm interested to test again this time because that happened the last few times and I could feel it as well as I was testing but really interestingly you know you get quite a lot of time fast did like so if you have a meal early in the morning I guess for you would be like at 5 or 5 30 or something and then you you know your eating window would be pretty short say at the most it's an hour and then you fast until dinner you're still fasting like 22 hours in the day it's still a long time you know a fasting so I think there are different ways to fast in terms of dizziness other thoughts I have are that it could be related to electrolytes so I'm not sure if you supplement with electrolytes but it's funny to me because I know I worked out fasted for so many years and I love doing that and I think a lot of people enjoy fasted workouts but I always felt great doing it so if I had ever felt unwell or dizzy or anything then I would have definitely changed it up so I'm just sort of speaking to what I would personally do if I was in that situation I would try having a meal before which I recently started incorporating a pre-workout meal and I've really been enjoying the workouts I've been getting and so I think it can also you know another thing to think about is also like what is the outcome that you're optimizing for because you might still be able to get there easily even if you have a meal before you workout if that makes you feel better if you are working out fed you're still getting a lot of the like the majority of the benefits from the workout it's not taking anything away from your exercise because if you burn fat more fat during your exercise fasted then you know you're still going to get the similar benefits from burning more carbs potentially while you're working out because you're going to burn more fat later so I think it all kind of evens out and the important thing is that you're doing an exercise and CrossFit is intense so I would definitely probably get dizzy as well if I was doing CrossFit fasted and that early in the morning it's just from what I've seen I have never tried it but I've seen it a lot on social media and it looks extremely hardcore and intense so that would be my suggestion what about you Melanie

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I thought, so I thought you were going to recommend, remember when we had that conversation about eating protein only before a workout?

Vanessa Spina:
Can we talk about that? Yes. And so that was, I had found some really interesting research showing that you get similar rates of mitochondrial biogenesis. A lot of people do facet workouts because of the purported mitochondrial biogenesis. But as I've been talking about in the last few episodes we've done, you know, there was a recent research review done showing that that pathway does not exist in humans from facet workouts. So you, the reason that people were still getting the mitochondrial biogenesis from eating protein before the workout was because of the workout. Just like doing it facet, it was the workout. So doing it fed, even if you have things other than protein, you're also going to get the benefits of mitochondrial biogenesis. It's the workout that does it. So I don't think it matters whether you're in the fed or facet state. And that's something I recently changed my mind on that I believed for a long time this recent research review came out and they looked at all the data in humans and they found that pathway exists in rodents, but it does not exist in humans. So it's really the workout that causes those adaptations. So that's why my answer is different.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, thank you for that. It's so, so helpful and fascinating. I'm glad you can speak to it, especially because I, well, I'm similar to you in that I, like, CrossFit is really intense. I applaud people who do it. I personally, I'm not a good person to ask because I don't do CrossFit. I personally just don't like working out in the Fed state at all. So what I would do, which I don't even know if this is an option, and this is ironic because a lot of people would say not to do this, but I would experiment with eating more the night before. I'd be curious what your actual eating window is. You might find that if you can eat more the night prior, because in a way you're eating window, I've heard like this quote from somebody like you're eating window, you're sort of fueling for the next day. So you might be able to find a combination of food that you could eat before bed that would, you know, last and make you feel okay at 6 a.m. I do like the electrolyte recommendation as well. And we have a link if you want free samples from Element. So you can go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, and that will get you a free sample pack of Element. So check that out. Yeah, I really feel like that's, I can't really think of any other options. Yeah. Anything else? Yeah. I think that pretty much covers it. All righty. So now we have a question from Lisa. The subject is Inflammation in Juve. And would you like to read this, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Sure. So of all the supplements and or therapies like the Juve that you've tried, which do you feel is best for inflammation? Do you still love your Juve like you did in episode 77? I'm making my way through the episodes and wondering if your opinion has changed since then. Is there a way to search your website for this? If there is, I couldn't figure it out, but we'll keep trying. Thanks, Lisa.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, awesome, Lisa. Wow, 77. So many podcast episodes. I was reflecting the other day on just how many podcast episodes has been created and same with you. What episode are you on now with your Optimal Protein podcast? We just passed 600. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. So yes, I still, I love red light therapy. I use it and near infrared. So red and near infrared therapy, which is what the jouve devices are. I use them. I use it every single day of my life. I use it to regulate my circadian rhythm. So I light my apartment with it in the morning and in the evening. I do targeted treatment on my body. It's very rare, but when I do have muscle pain, I, it's amazing how incredible it is. I actually, I also love, I interviewed Forrest Smith at Kineon and he has a targeted, a targeted laser red light device that it's small and you can actually strap it to different joints on your body or you can like hold it places. And it's a game changer for really, really targeted therapy. And Vanessa also has her tone lux devices, which are incredible red light therapy devices as well. So I have, yeah, I have not changed my opinion. I still love and adore red light. I think it's great for inflammation. The, uh, you can use the code Melanie Avalon for discounts on jouve and Kineon and tone lux, I think all the things as far as other things for inflammation. So honestly, so fasting, fasting is amazing for having an anti-inflammatory response on the body. It's probably one of my favorite things, honestly about fasting and then what you eat in your eating window, eating an anti-inflammatory diet for you because different people react to different things. I just think is so, so key. Like that's the foundation for me is the fasting and the diet and then adding on things to there. I think the best supplement for inflammation, the reason I launched Avalon X with Sarah peptase was because of how potently anti-inflammatory it is. It's amazing. It's a proteolytic enzyme. It actually goes and breaks down problematic proteins in your body, which your immune system can be reacting to. And so that's why it can so miraculously address inflammation in so many different parts of your body because it's, you know, breaking down those proteins all throughout your body that might be causing problems. That's why I made my Avalon X Sarah peptase. And again, the coupon code Melanie Avalon will get you 10% off that AvalonX.us. Other things for inflammation, cryotherapy. People often ask me why I do cold exposure and cryotherapy. And one of the main reasons, well, it's mostly how it affects my mood and how it affects my feelings of inflammation. And I've heard a lot of people say that as well. So because people will get out of the cryo chamber before me and they'll make that comment. And there's a lot of studies on that as far as how cold exposure can regulate the the immune system. I feel like those would probably be my main things. What's interesting is my CRP level, which that's a marker of inflammation in your body. Mine's been a flat line for years and years. So I think all these things are working pretty well. I also do take lotus naltrexone, which has an anti-inflammatory effect. I've been on that for a few years. Try to think if there's anything else. What are your thoughts, Vanessa? Do you talk about the anti-inflammatory benefits of your red light device?

Vanessa Spina:
I do. And actually it was amazing because I had this really bad shoulder pain. I had like a really stiff neck and shoulder and I know it's because of sleeping in the wrong position and breastfeeding at night and everything. And just with my kids, like sometimes they will just fall asleep on me and I'll get stuck in a certain position. Anyway, I don't usually have much muscle pain. So I don't really have an opportunity to use the red light for that. So I was like, hey, I have an opportunity to try this. And I literally had tried everything. I had tried cutting out some things I thought could be causing it, you know, some kind of reaction. I thought maybe it was oatmeal or gluten related. I think I mentioned that to you. And then I got a massage and that relieved the pain for a couple hours. And then it came back and it was like that kind of stiff pain where, you know, when you turn your head and you're like, uh, really uncomfortable and hard to not think about it during the day. And I was sitting on the couch. The kids had fallen asleep on me and I had the red light. I had my red light gem, which is the portable one, handheld one. And I put it between my shoulder and the couch behind me and I just did red and infrared for like 40 minutes. I just, cause it's got an automatic timer after 10 minutes and I just kept turning it back on, turning back on. And I got up and I was like, Pete, it's gone. And this has happened to me so many times with other things that have happened, even like infections. It's crazy how effective it is, especially for pain relief. And I think also the warming, the heat, especially with sore muscles. I mean, there's a reason that athletes use this for muscle recovery because I did also think, well, what if I just tweaked it when I was working out? Because I've been working out way harder and way more. It's like, what if I just tweaked it when I was working out? But I think it was, yeah, just some unrelated muscle pain. I was just amazed. And the next day it was still gone and I had it for two weeks, you know, and it was like suddenly after 40 minute session with the red light, it was gone. So I think it's extremely powerful. It might be the most underrated wellness tool that exists. I mean, it's so science backed. It does so many incredible things. Cause even if you're doing a session on say your face for boosting collagen and elastin production and the fibroblasts of mitochondria in your skin, you also have cell free mitochondria that circulate. So no matter where you do a session specifically on your body, you're getting systemic benefits on the mitochondria throughout your body as well. So in the future, I think everyone will have red light in their homes, just like a hairdryer. Like there was a time when no one had hair dryers and now everyone has one in their homes. So I think it'll be one of those things that'll just, at some point it'll be omnipresent in everyone's homes. And we're just kind of on the, you know, the cusp of it right now, sort of some people who are more like into biohacking and stuff have it. But if you have a device, you know how amazing it is. And it's just, again, we're talking about in the last episode, like the different ways that we disconnect from nature. It's just a way of reconnecting with nature because we are indoors so much. Most of us are indoors 90% of the day or more behind glass. And we don't get that red light from the sun that we get naturally when we're outside. And so this concentrated red light therapy and infrared from panels is just, I think one of the most powerful tools for lowering inflammation and for even pain relief in the moment. I don't think it could work for every kind of pain, but if it's muscle related or otherwise, there are lots of different examples of things that you wouldn't even think that it would work on. And it does. So it is, yeah, it's so powerful.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. I remember one of the first times, similar to your situation where I did have some pain and I put the red light on it and I was like, oh, it's gone. It was just gone. It was shocking. When I first did it, I remember the first time I would hold the light over it and it would go away and then I would remove the light and it would come back and I was like, that's really interesting. Yeah, I didn't wait. Cell-free mitochondria, I didn't know about that. They float around and what are they powering? It's in your blood cells. Gotcha. That makes sense. That's amazing. So how can people get your device?

Vanessa Spina:
you can get it by going to ketogenicgirl.com. I have my collection of red light therapy panels there and there's several different sizes. And then I also have the crystal face mask, which I am obsessed with. And I use it in the mornings because it helps me stay consistent with red light with having a toddler and a baby. It's just really hard to have the time in the day to go sit in another room in front of a panel. But with the mask, I can just put it on and I can still interact. So I think it's a huge benefit to be able to be hands-free from it. But that's the Tone Luxe collection and it's at Ketogenic Girl. And yes, you can get 20% off with that Code Melanie Avalon.

Melanie Avalon:
I told you this last time I got it set up and then charged it now it's ready to go I just have once I get it in my habit. I know I'm gonna keep doing it I need to make it part of my nightly habit. Yeah habit stacking habit stacking. Yes. Yes No, it's really it's really wonderful that you have made that mask Especially because a lot of like the ones I'd used in the past Directly for the face where you had to like lay underneath it still it wasn't like an actual, you know Something that strapped to your face

Vanessa Spina:
Right. Yeah. And I really want to know what you think of it because I think that a lot of them are creepy, but I think that I think mine is pretty cute, but I want to know what you think when you try it on.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I love it so much. Awesome, awesome.

Vanessa Spina:
I've got my Halloween costume all set so with your mask. Yeah, just put that on be a biohacker. Yes I'm a biohacker just answer the door with that or go to a party with that and I'll be done. So funny

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I know I should just wear it out like out in the world. Yeah, why not? Let's normalize it. Do they let you in stores with masks on like that? So good question. Is that like illegal? I feel like ever since the pandemic and people wearing masks.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends what state you're in. Like in California, pretty sure you'd be fine. Depends where you are probably. It's so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
Love it, love it. Oh, and she wanted to know, is there a way to search the website? Yes, there is a search bar on both. Well, okay, so a few different things. There's ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And there's also melanieavalon.com/stuffilike. And you can just search on that page for things. And then you can also search the entirety of the website of both websites, their search bars, like in the top, on the top. And the good thing is, because there are transcripts of everything, everything is very searchable. So things should come up. Okey dokey. Shall we go on to our next question? Sure. So this question comes from Jodi. The subject is starting IF and Jodi says, Hi, I just started listening to your podcast and I'm super intrigued. I am a nurse practitioner and very interested in health and fitness. I did the whole 30. And since then, I'm eating a dairy free lifestyle. She says, also a petty free lifestyle. We're wondering if she means paleo. We're not quite sure. She says I could lose five pounds and I would love to keep it off. I work out five to six days a week. I have young kids and we eat dinner around 5pm, making me done eating by 6pm. Won't I be starving the next morning? I mean, I wake up now ready to eat breakfast. Does it take a while to get used to it? Is it bad if you don't do it every day? I appreciate your input on how to start with such a crazy life with work and kids. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
I've heard different recommendations for this over the years. I think Dr. Sachin Panda, who's the scientist who really put time-restricted eating on the map, he always says, start with just pushing it back an hour. If you usually have breakfast at 7, then start having it at 8. And then after a while, start having it at 9, start having it at 10. Just push it back. Maybe gradually, you get to the point where you're having it at 10, or 11, or 12, depending on what kind of fasting window you want to have. Technically, according to the international consensus on fasting terms, 14 hours is the minimum. So if you were to have breakfast at 10 AM, you would still be doing intermittent fasting. And if you're closing your window by 6, that's still an 8-hour eating window with a 16-hour fasting window. So 10 from where you are now, if it takes some time to get there, I wouldn't be worried about how long it takes. I definitely think that there's probably an adjustment period. But hormonally, it's not usually a time that most people feel really, really hungry. A lot of people don't actually feel hungry in the morning. And I think part of that is from having coffee in the morning, which has an appetite suppressant effect. But most people hormonally tend to be hungrier later in the day. And I think that that's why intermittent fasting has sort of taken off so much, that so many people have been practicing it in the last years, is a lot of people just find that they're naturally not that hungry in the morning if they're not eating out of habit. But it's definitely going to be different for different people. So I would say, don't worry if it takes you some time to get there, and don't be afraid to get there gradually and slowly.

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, it's interesting that she says she is somebody who wakes up ready to eat breakfast, and it could be that she is one of those chronotypes that actually is hungry in the morning. I feel the same what you were saying, Vanessa, about, you know, a lot of people hormonally don't actually want to eat in the morning. I mean, I know that's me for sure and a lot of people, but something that's interesting is our hunger hormones adjust to our circadian rhythms if we follow consistent ones. So, ghrelin, for example, is a hunger hormone, and it makes you feel hungry, and it can adjust based on your pattern. So, like Vanessa said, if you go slow and slowly change things, it can adjust as well. It could be something, it's kind of like what I recommended earlier, and again, it goes against contrary wisdom, but if you definitely don't want to have a breakfast eating window, you said that you're done eating by six, you could try having a longer eating window in the evening. I know you're done eating with the kids at six, but maybe you could have something before bed. That's another possibility if you wanted to extend the eating window in the evening to make it easier in the morning. And does it take a while to get used to? So, yes, the body, you know, makes these adaptations. I mean, the good thing is you've done Whole30 before, so you've made food choices, which in theory should be supporting your metabolic health and your insulin sensitivity and all the things, but fasting can definitely, you know, take a bit to adjust to. We actually, on a recent episode, we talked about some studies that looked at how long it took people's hunger signals and things to basically for people not to be hungry while fasting. And it seemed in general that after a week or two, people often would adjust to whatever fasting window they were doing. Is it bad if you don't do it every day? Of course not. Like, definitely start wherever you're at, adding something, okay, how do I say this? Adding something beneficial to your life, in my opinion, is never a bad thing. It's not bad if you add just a little bit of it. That's good. And then you can keep going from there and adding more. I do really like Vanessa's ideas about going slow. I would have a reframe around because people often think, oh, life is so crazy, I don't have time to do this. One of the amazing things about fasting is how it actually frees up time. So I would completely reframe that if that's possible. Once you take the time to figure out the eating window that will work for you and plan the meals accordingly, now you're going to free up all this time where you would have been prepping meals that you're just not. So you're going to get time back. It's going to take a little bit of time in the beginning to create the system and think it through and plan it out and try it. But once you connect into that, you're going to get back so much time. It's also almost easier to start. I think it's easier to start fasting when you're busy because it distracts from hunger. I think one of the hardest ways to start fasting would be if you weren't busy at all and you were just like doing nothing, laying around, not eating, that would be pretty miserable for me. So yeah, I think that's a lot of options. Sure. All right. And then we will end with one more question from a different Nicole. She wants to know, what are your biggest regrets? Vanessa, do you have big regrets?

Vanessa Spina:
I tend to not be someone with a lot of regrets because I feel like life is always sort of working itself out for us in different ways. Things that we're ready for appear for us when we're ready for them. And it's sort of, you know, the way that life unfolds, like when they say when the student is ready, the teacher appears kind of thing. But the one forget I was trying to think of was if I had any regret, it would be that I did not continue resistance training. So when I, when I was in my early 20s, I got into a phase when I was doing, I always did a lot of cardio, you know, to just like manage my weight overall. But I had this period of time in my early 20s when I was in university and I went to the gym and I did, I lift, I did resistance training, I lifted weights, and then I totally moved away from it. I don't know why. Like, I don't know why. I would love to go back and ask myself why. I just don't know why. It just kind of faded out of my life and I started doing more yoga. And yoga is great, but it's great for, you know, flexibility, stretching everything. But I wish I had just kept up the resistance training because I would be so much further ahead where I am now. And I've managed to make a lot of progress in the last four years when I really recommitted to it. But now that I know everything that I do about it, I wish that I had been, well, it's two things actually, prioritizing protein and doing resistance training from that time on. I mean, I would be so ripped and jacked now. Like, it would be awesome. I wish I could go back and, you know, it would just be so amazing for my metabolic health to have built up all that muscle and get all the benefits from exercise, all the autophagy. You know, I mean, I would have been really hot all the time. But yeah, that's probably my biggest regret in, yeah, just in life in general. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
So, I'm really similar to you in that I don't like to live in a regrets-based mindset. I like to see everything as learning experiences and even really hard situations I went through. I always saw them as challenges and knew that I would grow and learn and good things would come from them. And I really like that mindset. And at the same time, I guess if I could change something kind of similar, I wish that I had done growing up. I wish I had done more musical theater, I wish I had pursued that more. And I wish that I had done dancing. I think I would have had a better, I think I would feel more comfortable in my body. I feel like now I'm making up for lost time. It's like I just recently discovered how fun dancing is at weddings and parties and Taylor Swift parties. And yeah, I wish I had done dancing more. And I wish I had appreciated growing up similar to you, Vanessa. Not the exercise per se, but on the diet side of things. I went through such a period of time in high school and middle school when I was haunted by skin issues and trying to lose weight and all those things. And I wish I just realized the power of food quality choices rather than dieting and calorie counting. And I just wish I had realized the profound effect that the food choices have in your body, which I didn't realize. I didn't realize that until I read Rob Wolf's book after graduating college. I was doing actually fasting and low carb before I really appreciated the whole foods type aspect. But yeah, the good thing is every day is a new day. You can always, always do new things and have no regrets. So awesome. Anything else from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm not surprised we have similar. Yeah, not the the musical theater one though. I'm it's it was interesting to hear that and I'm sure if you you know think hard enough there's definitely things you can regret but I definitely feel like you that you know everything is a learning experience it makes you ready for the next thing. Yeah, I love that you share that mindset but I had so much fun with you on the episode and I love the questions that we got to answer so thank you to everyone for sending in your brilliant questions and we really appreciate everyone who takes the time to do that and I'm looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, I feel the same. I echo all of it back to you. Thank you so much to the listeners for the questions. If you would like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode396. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are I a podcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time and hope that you have a great rest of your day. Thanks to all our listeners. You too. I will talk to you next week. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Sep 29

Episode 389: Caloric Restriction Vs. Fasting, Triggering Protein Muscle Synthesis, HDAC Inhibition, Autophagy, mTor, Food Cravings, Avocados, And More!

Subscribe For Updates HERE!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 389 0f The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Impact of Intermittent Fasting and/or Caloric Restriction on Aging-Related Outcomes in Adults: A Scoping Review of Randomized Controlled Trials

Listener Q&A: Rebeca - Avocados, avocados, avocados

Listener Q&A: Shari - If I want more muscle definition, should I eat shortly after my weight lifting session or complete my 16 hour fast?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 389 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 389 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? Doing great. How are you? I am good. I had the moment of all moments. You might have seen it on my Instagram, but I saw Adina Menzel live. Do you know her? I don't. She's the original. Do you know Wicked?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, the musical. That was really popular.

Melanie Avalon:
She's the original alphabet and she's Elsa and let it end frozen. Oh, you must have loved that. She's saying, let it go, like live. And the whole audience was singing along and it was the most magical thing. My life is complete. I've been waiting two decades for this moment or a decade for that moment and two decades for the wicked moment. So that's amazing. Yeah. I'm like on cloud nine. And I also yesterday interviewed, very excited Dr. Naomi Parrella. She is the chief medical officer at the zero app, which have you ever used the zero app, the fasting app?

Vanessa Spina:
I have I remember using it when I was doing extended fasts I I used it a few times or more than a few times I used it regularly when I used to do inner extended fasting

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, how long ago was that?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, before, I guess like before I had Luca, so like maybe 2018, 2019, 2020, I was doing a lot of extended fasting, but I, I really don't use it at all anymore because I'm not as much kind of stopped doing that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so that's also when I first used it was interesting. So I hadn't revisited it until prepping to interview her and it's changed a lot. Like it has a lot more features. It's really cool for like streaks and habit tracking and things like that with the calendar system and has a ton of resources. So like I opened it and on the homepage was a video with Peter Attia who apparently worked with them in the past. I was like, Oh my goodness. But it's super cool. I feel like I should be recommending it more, especially for people who are struggling in the beginning to stick to a fasting schedule or like get into, you know, really make it stick. It seems like a really, really great tool and resource for that, especially because we know, and I've talked about this on the show before, like dieting, for example, just the very act of monitoring what you're eating, like not even changing what you're eating, just monitoring what you're eating. It tends to create dietary change. Like there's something very powerful to tracking and accountability. So I think it'd be really helpful for people. And then she said she actually uses it in a, her own way as well, which is if she's wants to cut out a certain sort of food, like fast from like sugar or a certain treat, she'll use it that way. Um, which is really kind of smart, which I've actually, now I'm just thinking of all the ways I could use this app in the past. I've used an app where I was like, I'm not going to text this person. And it like, do you know how long you've gone? So maybe not for that reason. Well, yeah, you could, you could fast from people. Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, it's super cool. And listeners can get it. I guess I didn't even really see what it does. It tracks your fasting, but oh, and she said that the, the algorithm is very sophisticated and works with your personal data, like your, you know, your age and your sex, and then it integrates with your wearables and can take in data with the information that you tell it regarding your meals and such. And then from that, it generates when it thinks you're in certain fat burning modes based on the time and stuff like that. So I asked her about like, you know, the accuracy and she said there's, you know, a lot of, like they have a lot of science behind it. And so it was really, it was really cool. And we also, just as a side note, listeners, that episode will come out in a few episodes. And we went into a deep dive into ozimpic and semi-glutide. So I thought that was like really cool because her specialty is actually weight loss. That's like what she does. She is the medical director at Rush center for weight loss, actually. And so that's her specialty. So yeah, maybe we could actually talk about our updated thoughts on ozimpic and such, but in any case, before that, for listeners, you can go to ifpodcast.com/zero, and that will give you a free seven day trial to the plus version. And then it's always free regardless. So you can keep it for free or pay for the plus version. Yeah, it was super, super cool. So what is new in your life?

Vanessa Spina:
Just doing so much podcasting right now. I I have been recording four to five episodes a week I'm just really pumped by all the amazing people. I'm getting to talk to you and the podcast is just doing amazing and it's just like it's kind of a Lot right now doing so many interviews because it as you know for each one You know, you have to prepare quite a bit whether it's like reading the person's book or you know Reading at least a dozen studies or so that they've authored. So I feel like I'm constantly Shifting gears and I've got so many tabs on my computer open of different Different studies, but it's amazing. I mean I was just saying to Pete we had a date night because we had our eighth wedding anniversary On Saturday Oh anniversary. Thank you. We did a mini putt this amazing new place in the city That's kind of like Las Vegas, but it doesn't have all the casino the gambling It's just like a really fun place and we did mini putt, which is what we did on one of our first dates But we were talking at dinner and I was like, I just feel so blessed that I get to do what I love Every single day and I always dreamed when I was younger of being in a position where I would get to Read books and synthesize information and share it. I don't know why I've always wanted to do that and I find that's what exactly what i'm doing Every day and it's it's so rewarding and so fulfilling. I'm interviewing. Have you heard of timeline nutrition? No They are this incredible swiss company that has done Over a decade of research and they discovered this molecule. You've probably heard of urolithin a Yeah, they discovered it and it it generates mitophagy it generates autophagy, but mitophagy specifically the mitochondrial autophagy And i'm interviewing their chief medical officer. That's anurag sing the day after tomorrow. So i'm really deep in mitophagy Research and and just all the stuff that they've been doing. It's really amazing. I love whenever a company is research first, you know, they put all their time and energy into research and doing all the clinical trials and Coming up with things that can really improve people's lives and I felt the same way about Mimeo who you recently got to To interview is companies that are research first like that research forward and they're creating things That are related to fasting that benefit you Or that generate benefits similar to fasting You know, and I think there's a lot of interest in that at the moment just like there isn't, you know the zero app

Melanie Avalon:
I as well feel so, so grateful about the podcasting. I didn't have that as specific of an acute. Wait, how old were you when you decided you wanted to do that? Read books and I mean, it was.

Vanessa Spina:
definitely was always knew that I wanted to do something involving books. Like it was more like a writing a book, which as you know I ended up doing. But although I did enjoy that, I way more enjoy reading, synthesizing, and sharing. I don't know why, but it was, I think it was in my early 20s. Like when I was in university and I started to think about doing a career and I was like, I need to do something where I can read stuff and then synthesize the key points and share it. And I was like, I need to become a professional speaker. So I thought, I thought that's what I should do, you know, because there's people who do that. Like people like Brian Tracy and Tony Robbins, like these were my heroes. I was like, I need to do that. So I did do that initially right after I left school, but podcasting is like a way better form, way better method for it. But yeah, in my early 20s, I kind of realized that. And so yeah, the fact that it's, it's what I get to do every day is amazing. Even no matter how busy it gets, and I'm sure you can relate, it's always so satisfying because you know you're doing what you were meant to be doing or what you're skilled or talents or, you know, you're kind of utilizing all of your skills and talents in a way living up to your full potential. I guess that's how it feels like.

Melanie Avalon:
I couldn't agree more. I guess I always wanted to have a show, so kind of similar. And then growing up, in high school, I was always like, I don't know if this was YouTube, but I was always the study guide girl. I made the study guides. I feel like that kind of relates to this, taking in all the information and, like you're saying, synthesizing. I think my favorite thing is just getting to learn these completely different but interrelated topics and do a deep dive into them. It's literally almost every day. So it's just constant learning.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And I, I always love, I don't know if it's Sun Tzu said, if you do what you love, you'll never work a job in your life. Yeah. A day in your life, a day in your life. And I, I also discovered that quote when I was in university and I was like, you know, I would just want to end up doing something that I love. And I, this definitely never feels like work. Although there are times where I feel exhausted mentally, especially recently feeling a little tired mentally, but I never feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm doing what I love and podcasting. I always feel like I get into the flow with most guests with, I would say with over 90% of the guests, I feel like I get into a flow state with them and that's the best. Like, yeah, I'm not surprised you feel that way too.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I literally had a moment, I think yesterday, I just sat in my car and I was like, I'm so grateful. I get to just learn all this stuff, like just constantly new things.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I think about you sometimes with, when I see the different episodes that you come out with, because your podcast is more broadly like on biohacking, it's less focused on one thing. So you really have a nice like wide variety of different topics that you talk about on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. And I always think when I see a new episode come out, I'm like, oh, she must have loved doing that one. No, because I can imagine you like preparing for it and really enjoying that person's book or yeah, that's fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's really great. We we share that in common. I love that so much. Oh Man, okay. Well speaking of studies Yeah, speaking of studies So I was looking up to see if there were any you know Cool fun new studies out about intermittent fasting I found for this episode and next episode some New reviews I thought we could talk about so the study for today it's called Impact Of Intermittent Fasting And Or Caloric Restriction On Aging Related Outcomes And Adults A Scoping Review Of Randomized Controlled Trials. So this study looks at 30 articles and 12 of them were about intermittent fasting 10 were about calorie restriction and 8 were combined and what they were looking at in general was to look at the Cardiometabolic cancer and Neurocognitive outcome differences between both of those and adults questions they were looking to ask were they wanted to know basically what were the Like within the study the different effects of those different outcomes and adults They wanted to know what were the differences between those and these different interventions or effects on health and what was interesting about it was I Thought it was going to find more Specific like I thought was gonna say that intermittent fasting was better for this and CR was better for this but honestly the takeaway about everything was they were pretty similar so basically, they were equivalently effective for all three of those outcomes and really the only Main difference was because they were also in addition to that They're both associated with weight loss which seemed to play a role and in all those health outcomes But I have tended to report greater adherence compared to calorie restriction So the long story short takeaway was that both of these have these incredible outcomes for our heart for cancer and our brain and they are Likely in part active acting through weight loss for that but intermittent fasting just seems to be more Doable so people adhere to it better has more long-term sustainability If you like I can go into some of the like specific things They found I don't know if I should go that route or talk a little bit about IF versus CR Do you have thoughts Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, it's, it's, if there's anything specific you want to share, I found, you know, I wasn't surprised by the findings. This is something that I've, I always say is kind of funny to me because it's the whole reason why intermittent fasting exploded worldwide was because people found out that they could do caloric restriction without feeling like they were on a diet. That's really the whole thing. And then, and then people now critique it and say, well, it's the same as caloric restriction. Right. But that's the whole reason people got excited about it in the first place. And so the findings were not surprising to me because it is very, the results, the outcomes are equivalent between caloric restriction, intermittent fasting. I think that as the, so I'm interviewing a guest who actually specifically studied this in a couple of weeks. And it's really interesting. This topic, like comparing them. Yeah. He studied specifically, he got his PhD studying if there is a difference between intermittent fasting and caloric restriction. And it's yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of times like the studies don't equate the calories between the groups when that happens. But usually what happens spontaneously, people eat less when they're doing intermittent fasting, even then when they're doing caloric restriction. And it's like you said, the main takeaway from this review of the review, review of the men analysis is that it is more tolerable and people tend to stick with it more and are more successful with it. And there's something about just giving yourself this framework of being in a facet state, having a facet window for however long that is, that just works so well for people because you, you have this, it's like a psychological parameter around when you should be eating and when you shouldn't. And then you kind of go on autopilot after a while and you're just like, this is when I eat and this is when I don't eat. And when you have an open window all day, I don't know about other people are like this, but a lot of time there's that decision-making around like, should I eat now? Should I eat later? Should I have snack now? Or, and you almost sometimes feel hungrier just because you opened your eating window and you, you know, psychologically that you can eat. So it's such an effective tool for so many reasons. And like you said, a lot of the main cardio metabolic benefits, insulin sensitivity, improvement, et cetera, comes from the fat lost on either intermittent fasting or caloric restriction, intermittent fasting being a really effective form of caloric restriction.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny. So yesterday when I was interviewing Dr. Perilla at the end, we were talking about if we could create any study, what would we create? And I said I would like to see more studies comparing intermittent fasting to calorie restriction and seeing what are the mechanisms there. So that's so cool. How did you find that guy?

Vanessa Spina:
I found him through Dr. Kurt Escobar, who's the PhD on autophagy that I recently interviewed. He's really interesting because he's a super sharp guy, but he's on this mission to correct a lot of the myths that are spread on the internet about autophagy and how it works. And he really thinks that a lot of people embellish or exaggerate some of the findings in studies because it gets, I don't know, he doesn't talk about this exactly, but I think it, he says it's usually because they want to sell you products or whatever. So they get your attention by embellishing or exaggerating what was found in a study and then they're able to get your attention so they can sell you products. That's his thing. And I understand where he's coming from. He's trying to set the record straight on what the truth about autophagy really is, like how much autophagy can you really get from different protocols? And I recently had him on the show and he interviewed this PhD who studied fasting and caloric restriction and compared it. And he believes that there is really no difference that looking at, I think he did a meta analysis looking at intermittent fasting compared with caloric restriction. And they found that ultimately if you equate calories exactly between the two, you're going to get the same results in terms of fat loss. If there's a caloric deficit, which there would be from caloric restriction, improvements in insulin sensitivity usually come from that and all the other associated benefits also come from that. But Dr. Sachin Panda, he did a lot of research comparing the two and he definitely found in his research that there were additional benefits from intermittent fasting. And one of the things that I tend to think about is ketones, right? If you get into ketosis, you're getting the signaling benefits of ketones. So I asked Dr. Kurt Escobar, is there a difference in autophagy between someone who fasts, for example, doing a 16, eight fasting period and an eight hour eating window with someone who does eats the same amount of calories in that 24 hour period? Is the autophagy the same? And he said, you might have a slightly higher increase towards the end of the fasting window, like right before you break your fast. And that's also where you would start to see that elevation in ketones, et cetera. But he said, in terms of autophagy, if you take both, it's a washout. They both will end up giving you the same amount of autophagy. But I do think that there is some benefits to the elevation of ketones. And he also talked about the timing. If you're measuring things in a study, when are you doing the measuring? Are you doing it during the fasting window? If you're doing it right before someone breaks their fast, there's probably going to be elevation in certain markers and autophagy proteins that you wouldn't see at other times of the day.

Melanie Avalon:
curious about, did he say anything about the difference in muscle preservation? Like a bolus of protein after a fasted state compared to small amounts of protein?

Vanessa Spina:
No, we didn't talk about that. We were talking more about exercise and fasting and caloric restriction. And he was saying basically that the autophagy is generated when you have an energetic crisis at the cellular level. And that usually happens through exercise, but it doesn't have to be fasted exercise. It just happens from exercise because exercise is when you create that intense demand for ATP. And that creates an energetic crisis for the cell. Whereas fasting, and this is something I've been talking about with a lot of scientists recently, fasting was believed to be doing that via this AMPK, PGC1 alpha axis, because they found that in mice. But then they recently found that that pathway doesn't exist in humans, which I think I was telling you about last week. So it doesn't mean that it's not there. It's just that exact pathway is not there as it is in rodents. So some things are there. As you know, some things you'll find in rodents just are not applicable to humans. But yeah, we didn't specifically talk about protein. And I think if I would have asked him that, he would have said he wasn't an expert in that area.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because that's something I'm super curious about. I'm really, really curious about this question. I'm a bit haunted by it. In this review, the things they found that were similar between IF and CR, so they found that they better maintain blood glucose levels and lipid metabolism, so that's dealing with fats in the body, that they induce neurotrophic and autophagy responses, that they increase the production of metabolites like ketones and BDNF, that they may promote reductions in oxidative stress and inflammation. So those were the main things they were talking about as being similar. What was interesting about the review was they would look at different markers sometimes to draw similar conclusions. So for example, with managing cardiovascular risk factors, they were saying that IF showed positive effects on blood lipids and glucose metabolism, and then specifically CR reduced LDL cholesterol and the total cholesterol HDL ratio. So what's interesting to me is it's different. They're not looking at the exact same thing when they're making the comparison. They did both show reductions in oxidative stress and inflammation, as well as lower levels of CRP for both. Yeah, I just really want to know if it's, I don't know why I want to know so bad, but I really want to know. It kind of reminds me of, weren't we talking about something recently where, or now am I thinking of a podcast I was listening to? I'm having a memory of talking about something where we thought it was the same pathway, but it was actually different pathways. Was that me and you, or was that me listening to a podcast?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, we were just saying that that AMPK PGC1 alpha axis was generated from fasting in mice, but it doesn't generate in humans. So in mice, fasting will generate mitochondrial biogenesis, but it doesn't in humans. The exercise does, but not the fasting. So that's why I've recently been playing around with doing a pre-workout meal. And I've been doing this now for two weeks and I've lost almost five pounds. Oh, wow. Yeah. So what I'm trying to figure out now is, is it the small meal is giving me more energy for my workout or is it the additional triggering of muscle protein synthesis from that other meal, which it could be, but it's really interesting because I didn't expect that I didn't expect that to happen at all.

Melanie Avalon:
How does that normally, because I know nothing about the general timeline of weight gain and weight loss with having a child. So like, is that the normal trajectory? I know it's all different and unique for individual people.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I'm already like at my goal because I didn't gain weight with my second pregnancy. I actually lost a little bit of weight when I was pregnant. Oh, wow. Yeah. I didn't gain weight. Like you lost weight, like my body fat, like when I was pregnant. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Like at one point, I had really had to start eating more. It was just at one point in the pregnancy, baby was obviously like extremely healthy the whole time, but I didn't put on any additional weight during this pregnancy. So when I, after the baby, I didn't, like I'm not in like a postpartum like fat loss or weight loss journey or anything. It's just more what I'm always doing, which is optimizing my body composition, like wanting to be gaining muscle. And if I can lose, like I wanted to lose like between three to five pounds, like just overall, like not related to postpartum or anything, just in general, like the same as before I had the babies. And so I was pretty close to my goal, but yeah, it was really surprising because things could be different hormonally right now. Like the hormonal landscape could be different for me. I'm like about eight months out since having the baby, but yeah, it's, it's not really related to the, to postpartum weight gain or anything like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Gotcha. No, that's super cool. I love the, um, the self experimentation. How do you, how do you monitor your changes in your body composition?

Vanessa Spina:
So I use a scale at home and then I go for pretty regular DEXA body scans. I have a place near me, so I'm going to go for one pretty soon. But it was so interesting because you always think that adding more meals is not going to make you lose fat. That seems so contradictory. But now that I understand how muscle protein synthesis works and how much ATP and energy it requires, it does kind of make sense to me. And I have had people message me this in the past that it happened to them. And I thought, oh, they must be unicorns or something. Because usually, in a way, you would think this defies thermodynamics. But it doesn't because protein is so thermogenic and you burn about 30% of the calories, somewhere between 20% to 30% of the calories that you ingest because of triggering muscle protein synthesis. I think that it could either be that that meal, like I said, is giving me more energy to work out harder, which is what I was thinking at first. But it could also be that it's just generating a higher thermic effect from building muscle, from triggering muscle protein synthesis. But yeah, really, really interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, when I first started doing my really crazy diet experimentations back in the day, and I've talked about this a lot before, but I basically went through a period of time where I was eating just, like, just lean protein. And it's because intuitively I was like, I feel like I can just eat this unlimited and probably the more I eat, the more weight I'm going to lose. And that's very not scientific, what I just said, but that was my experience. Because I just was looking at, you know, what you were talking about with, like, how thermogenic protein is and how it really does, you know, go into the pathway of often becoming muscle. And then the pathway to fat conversion is just, you know, much more longer and complicated. So basically, keep adding the protein, the lean protein, you think it can be really magical for people. Just, like, in the body composition world and muscle building. Whatever I'm thinking of with the different pathways is, I think it's from some podcast and it probably has nothing to do with what we're talking about. But if it comes to me, I will mention it.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks for sending me that study, it was interesting. It was kind of like...

Melanie Avalon:
Not a let down, but I was excited. I was like, oh, it's going to be like, show some differences. But instead, it was kind of like they do the same thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we could look at Dr. Sachin Panda's research on a future episode because he definitely, you know, really believes that there's a lot of additional benefits from time-restricted eating than, you know, versus caloric restriction. And he, you know, believes he's done the research to prove that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, I would love to because yes, I want to know the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, the last closing point on this, I would say on this study, is to me, it's an amazing way to do caloric restriction. And I do firmly believe you get some additional benefits. I do believe autophagy and fat loss could be similar, but I think you get additional benefits from ketosis because you start generating ketosis, most people, if they skip breakfast and you start getting into that state of ketogenesis around like seven, eight, nine in the morning if you've been fasting since dinner the night before. So if you delay breakfast, you're definitely getting some ketones on board and they have amazing signaling properties, I think, that are understated because they have epigenetic signaling qualities they have signaling on the HDAC inhibition, histone deacetylase inhibition, which is something that drug companies are spending billions to try and replicate. You can get that naturally from ketosis. So I think there are longevity benefits from the increase in ketones, especially towards the end of the fast, that are not being accounted for enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I mean, that's what that's what would make sense to me. It just seems like you would create a different metabolic signature, eating the same amount, like same amount of calories, but eating them throughout the day versus this fasted fed state differentiation. You just see, I don't know, just, it seems like there would be something different, but yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
We can do Dr. Panda's studies next time.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that'd be great. Should we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. All right, would you like to read the question from Rebecca?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So our first question today is from Rebecca and the subject is avocados, avocados, avocados. Hi, ladies. I love the podcast. Thank you for all that you do. I recently started working from home and I realized that I don't get a lot of steps in a day. So I now take a walk every morning to get a coffee and listen to your podcast every day. I'm slowly catching up on all the podcasts that I missed. I'm also doing a slow transition back to IF. I was doing awesome with 18 to 20 hour fasting leading up to my wedding and then a series of life events hit, new job, new city, new house, family member fell ill with cancer, on and on and on. And while I fell off the wagon, I am slowly climbing back on and getting at least 16 to 18 hour fasts in with a 20 to 23 hour one in here and there. No changes yet, boo. But I am committed for a few months. All this to ask my question. I tend to open my window with an avocado with sea salt. It is so good. And now I absolutely crave it. I wake up thinking about it and there are days I would probably eat three to five avocados a day if I could. My question is why Google tells me that it could be a deficiency in essential fatty acids, low iron, or the whole what you eat you crave based on your gut bacteria. Well, I don't think avocados are bad and having one a day isn't super stressful to me. I do think that the urgency with which I crave them is causing me to pause and wonder what is going on. Other things I crave are coffee. Admittedly, I have a pretty bad caffeine addiction that I am just not interested in changing once in a while chocolate mainly because I am trying to mostly follow paleo and allow myself some dark chocolate once in a while carbs and salt. Thanks for any tips that you might have. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
First of all, avocados, do you like avocados, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I love them and they are full of potassium, which I just had to say because it's the first thing that came to my mind.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I remember avocados were one of those foods that did not taste like what I thought it was going to taste like. Like I didn't have one for the longest time and then I have one for the first time and it was like, oh, it's like, when is this?

Vanessa Spina:
magical. It is magical. It's funny because it reminded me when I was in university, I used to also have an avocado every day and it was the first thing I ate every day. And I would actually, this is really funny, but I would slice it in half and put it in a container overnight with an open lemon that I would also slice in half. And in the morning, it would make the avocado taste lemony. And it was amazing. Also with a bit of salt on it, there was something about it that was just insanely delicious. It would get infused with the lemon and I would have that every single day. And I remember my mom, she would be like, aren't you worried about cholesterol?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man. I used to put the lemon on it too. I used to do, okay, I used to do lemon pepper and lemon on the avocado. Oh my goodness. There was something about, I remember my friend Jason was like, you have to try lemon pepper on avocado. It's going to change your life. And it did. There's something about the lemon. Oh man. You should try the lemon pepper. Like try it, try it and report back. It's going to change your life. It's going to change your life.

Vanessa Spina:
change your life? Yeah, avocados are magical.

Melanie Avalon:
I just remember though it not tasting like what I thought it was going to taste like. I think because I associate it with guacamole, which I never had, and guacamole you kind of associate with Mexican food, so I thought it was going to be like Mexican food tasting. I don't know. It was not what I thought at all.

Vanessa Spina:
texture.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man, I'm craving an avocado. So, well, first of all, I'm really sorry Rebecca about, although this is kind of an old question. So hopefully things are doing well with your family member and all of the things. And like, this is a really old question. So I really am curious where she's at now with her job and her life and where she's living and, and everything. So sending love there as far as, okay, my first initial thought, interesting that your thought was about potassium. Mine was that this is a habit craving thing, because we know, we know our brains release dopamine based on habits. So you can actually, it's really interesting. You can create dopamine releases from things that don't even really mean anything to you, but the brain likes patterns, especially if you think that these patterns are keeping it alive. So it's quite possible that, and this is just me like, just hypothesizing. It could be a lot of different things and I don't know the answer, but it could be that there were some or are some nutrients and avocados that you did really need. And since you started opening your fast with it, it was a high reward situation where you're looking forward to it. You're opening your fast with it. You're getting all these nutrients. So it's like good, good, good. It's signaling good things to your brain. And then if you repeated that and you're like opening the window with it every time, you're going to probably quickly start really looking forward to that. And I mean, I think that could happen with almost, I mean, a lot of foods. I mean, I even do it because I open my window a very specific way and I definitely, I don't say not necessarily that I crave it, but I really, that's like what I need to open my window. And I would feel very weird not doing that, which is like my cucumbers and my wine. And we do know, so she mentioned the whole eat what you crave thing with the gut based on your gut bacteria. We do know that's a thing. So basically what you eat influences your gut bacteria and then your gut bacteria crave that thing you're eating. And that can be a reason that can be actually pretty hard to get off of like the processed food train, for example, because you start cultivating these not so good gut bacteria that are craving that not so good food. And on the flip side though, when you change your diet, you can actually start slowly craving the foods you're eating, which is very, very cool. So the reason I'm thinking it's more habitual now is that if you've been doing this, I don't know how long she said this has been happening, but if it's been a substantial amount of time and you're still intensely craving the avocados, I think you probably would have received the nutrients that you were deficient in by now. I mean, I guess it's possible not. To me, it sounds more like a habit driven thing, especially because you also know you admit that you crave and have quote addictions with other things like coffee. It doesn't sound like you actually have like a habit or an addiction around chocolate, but you do talk about craving different things. Yeah, I will put my money on it being a habit thing. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
That was the first thing I thought of as well is, you know, it being a habit, sorry, the first thing I thought it was actually potassium because avocados are really high in potassium. And I'm always really interested, you know, by things like cravings, like dark chocolate. Could it be that you're low in magnesium? Like if you're craving bananas or potatoes or avocados, which are all high in potassium, could it be that you're low in potassium? You know, it's interesting to consider. I'm not saying that that's what's happening, but it's just what came to my mind because those foods are high in it. So sometimes cravings can be associated with that. I would think that it's probably just because it's so amazing because as we were talking about avocados are magical and delicious. The only thing that I would say is, and we probably won't have the same opinion on this, but if you are waking up already thinking about your meal way later in the day, that to me doesn't sound like a fun day. So, you know, and I found that like I have done intermittent fasting for so many years. And like I would say, most of the time that I was doing it, I was enjoying it because I didn't have any thoughts of food during that time. And that's what I enjoyed about it was the freedom from thinking about food or meals. And then I would usually think about food around the time, you know, that it was opening my eating window. I'm sure that's not the case for everyone, but to me that feels more, I wouldn't say white-knuckling it because it's not like you're saying in your question that all day long you're like tormented by the thought of this avocado, but it does sound like you're thinking about it quite a lot. So, you know, I don't know if maybe your eating window is too long. As we were just talking about, there's quite a bit of research showing that intermittent fasting and caloric restriction can produce the same results. So what if you had the avocado a little bit earlier in the day, and then you wouldn't be thinking about it all day. It's just something that I would maybe try experimenting with. I've tried with so many, I've experimented with so many different kinds of fasting approaches. You know, I've done, the most recent one I was doing was circadian rhythm fasting. So I was having a breakfast every day and then having dinner, and I would fast between breakfast and dinner. And I really liked that. That could be something you could try. There's having breakfast and lunch and then fasting until breakfast the next day. I tried that one, probably the one I struggled with the most, so not one that I would recommend. But that's because, not because I was hungry at dinner, but because I wanted to partake in the social activities, like with friends or with family of having that meal, which dinner usually is a more social meal. So I would just play around with your fasting window. If you're really, really wanting to do intermittent fasting, you know, I doubt it's related to a deficiency because you're eating it every day. So if you're having it every day, then you're probably not deficient in that thing. I think it's probably more maybe around the fact that you're just waking up and you're hungry and you want to have something. So you know, there's lots of different ways to approach whatever it is that your goal is. If it sounds like you would like to potentially lose some body fat and improve your body composition, you can still achieve that by having the avocado or having your first meal earlier in the day. You know, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to do an 18 or 20 hour fasting window to achieve your goal. Some people do that because they find themselves free from thinking about food all day. But if you are thinking about food all day, then I would think that would defeat the purpose.

Melanie Avalon:
I also have a wild card suggestion, this total wild card. This might just be something to try out of curiosity and experimentation, but I remember when I was going down the fasting mimicking diet rabbit hole way back in the day and contemplating doing it. That's Dr. Valter Longo's basically approach to creating the metabolites and effects of intermittent fasting, but you do it for like five days. There's the DIY version where people kind of just create a meal that, oh, wait a minute. No, because his is low. Wait, his is... Oh man. Now I'm trying to remember. I just remember there was a DIY version online where people were eating avocados, but now I'm wondering if that matches up with the macros of his diet because his diet tends to be low fat. So I'd have to revisit that. Basically, well, FMD or not. I know there's a community out there where they do this avocado fast thing. You could just try that out of curiosity. She said, I could eat three to five avocados a day if I could. You could try an experiment where you eat like five avocados for a few days. Just out of curiosity, I'm not prescribing this as like a diet to follow long term, but if you are into self experimentation, I think it could be interesting. It'd be really... It'd probably get you really deep into ketosis. I don't know what you think about that crazy idea, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, this is not a nutritional advice podcast because we are not qualified to do that. So definitely not any kind of, you know, recommendation, but it does, it does sound like something fun to do being as avocados are so delicious. And like you said, you could have three, three to five a day. You probably could have three to five a day and still get to your goal. So I totally get where you're coming from on that.

Melanie Avalon:
It reminds me of the fat fasting that people would do. It would be a way to get an extended amount of time. This is going to sound counterintuitive to everything that we've talked about, but the Dr. Valter Longo FMD thing, a lot of the benefits that he finds comes from the really low protein intake. So it could be interesting. Maybe we could do it for like a day. Maybe we could have like an avocado day and see what happens. I know Dave Asprey.

Vanessa Spina:
An avocado day would probably be fun. If you are looking for body re-composition, yes, I agree, you'd probably get into ketosis because your protein would be so low. But avocados actually have a lot of carb, so avocados are mostly carb and fat. So I wonder, probably even with five, you probably would be low enough, but I'd have to look it up to see. But you probably would be low enough just on calories, although it depends on the size of the avocados because I think some of them are like 300 calories each.

Melanie Avalon:
Now I'm craving avocados.

Vanessa Spina:
Now you wanna do an avocado date. I wanna do an avocado fast day, yeah. You should do an avocado date and report back.

Melanie Avalon:
sounds really miserable to me. I can't do the like day. I can't do like the eating throughout the day. For your OMAD.

Vanessa Spina:
to see the avocados, avocados for, you know, for, for a fun experiment, you'd probably be in ketosis, although I'm gonna see how many carbs are in an avocado.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's only like three or four. I don't think it's that much. 13.

Vanessa Spina:
Is some of that fiber? Yeah, 10 grams of fiber, but I never did like the net carbs thing. So if you're doing net, then it's probably three. If you don't do net, it's 13. So you probably could have two and being ketosis or three maybe, but that's really not your question. I know. But yeah, for body composition, ultimately you, you want to have some protein in there, I would think. So, you know, I, I think the reason avocados are so attractive, just like nuts is that, you know, they have lots of amazing nutrients in them. They have lots of energy, lots of carb and fat, and they taste so, so delicious. And that that's what makes them so magical, but they only have three grams of protein. So if you had five of them, you'd be getting like 15 grams of protein, which like you said would probably put you in ketosis, but it won't help with long-term body re-composition and gaining more lean mass.

Melanie Avalon:
I know Dave Asprey has his low protein days as well, so it'd be like a therapeutic approach type thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. I've totally been changing my thinking lately on, on protein restriction. Oh yeah. And mTOR and everything, which is like a much larger conversation, but it was really interesting because I know it's a topic that we both love. And, you know, how do you balance all of that mTOR activity with AMPK? And it really, it really is interesting because Dr. Kurt Escobar was talking about how the mTOR that people talk about in a negative light is actually dysregulated mTOR. And that's something you don't want to have a lot of, but the mTOR that you get from eating protein and doing resistance training, you never want to really avoid that. And you can get autophagy from mTOR, which is so counter to what I used to think, because once in autophagy, once the lysosome fills with enough amino acids, it actually triggers autophagy. And the metabolic autophagy that you trigger from exercise triggers that housekeeping, that cellular housekeeping autophagy. So I used to always think for autophagy, you needed AMPK, you needed fasting, you needed to avoid mTOR with protein, et cetera. But you actually get autophagy from mTOR. Like the whole system is so much more complex than we often make it seem like AMPK fasting autophagy versus mTOR protein muscle building. And you can actually get a lot of autophagy from mTOR, which the whole point of that being you don't have to do protein restriction to get autophagy and to kind of balance things out. So I've been changing my thinking on that lately, but I know it's something that a topic that we're both interested in.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah i remember when i was talking with my friend james climent who wrote a book called the switch he does a lot of studying on blood work of longevity and. He's talking about how long in tour stays on and that's what that's when i realized that i know nothing about him to her.

Vanessa Spina:
and the different mTOR complexes, mTOR1 and mTOR2.

Melanie Avalon:
He was talking about how, and I don't want to get this wrong, but basically like, and I don't know what the exact experiment he was doing or what he was testing, but he was talking about a situation where protein or whatever or something was stimulating mTOR and it was still on like, you know, 30 hours later or something. And I was like, okay, nevermind, I don't know anything, like, I don't know what's happening here. Did you listen to that interview? Peter Attia interviewed a woman and like her thing was mTOR.

Vanessa Spina:
don't know. I'd love to get their name and go look it up. It was a really deep dive. I'll have to find it. You know what's blowing my mind lately is the podcast transcripts on iTunes. Oh, I listen on Spotify. I don't know if Spotify has this, but iTunes now has transcripts for every podcast. And so you can search the transcripts on the app. So if I want, like, if I want to go back and find that interview, I can search in the transcript just when they talk about mTOR. For us too? Yeah. And you can search specific terms, but you can also watch the words as you're listening, which is a new thing that I love to do because it's like subtitles. So it kind of helps me to deepen my understanding when it's something really complex. I can listen to it and I can also watch the words as it goes through the transcript.

Melanie Avalon:
I had a moment, sorry, just speaking of this week, because like one of my best friends ever, shout out to Carmen and me, he's directing his first feature film with a really incredible cast. And I was watching his producer cut, so there's no subtitles, obviously. And I was like, whoa, this is like a whole new experience. I forgot what it was like to watch something without subtitles. I think it made me watch it a little bit better. I used to think it was the opposite, the subtitles were helping me, but now I'm wondering if I'm becoming reliant on subtitles, well, like for videos, like for movies and TV, because you watch with subtitles, right? I love them.

Vanessa Spina:
but also I have two kids that are constantly making noises, so I can't really watch anything without subtitles now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So that was a moment. I was like, I don't know what to do with myself. I have to like, listen. Oh my goodness. Love it. Awesome. Well, this was super fun. So if Rebecca is still around, definitely let us know how it went with the avocados, which I am now craving.

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say if we want to do this last question, it's kind of related, like we could answer it pretty quick because it's kind of related to what we've just been talking about.

Melanie Avalon:
This is from Sherry. She says, if I want more muscle definition, should I eat shortly after my weightlifting session or complete my 16-hour fast? Should I break my fast and take collagen and creatine right after my session and then eat a meal after I have fasted 16 hours? I am 59 years young and could stand to lose a little fat on my arms and belly around three to five pounds.

Vanessa Spina:
That was some alliteration. Should I eat shortly after my weightlifting session? It's very poetic writing. So, I would say that, in my opinion, it probably just comes down to what feels best for you, and we might have different opinions on this. Being as what we were just talking about with the studies and the meta-analysis talking about chloric restriction and intermittent fasting, basically generating the same amount of fat loss between the two, I think it really just comes down to how you feel best. If you like to eat right after your weightlifting session, you can do that. If you want to break your fast and have collagen and creatine, and also have a meal right after your workout, then you can definitely do it. I don't think you need to get to a certain goal, especially with the hours, and if you want to lose some body fat, like three to five pounds you were saying, ultimately if you were doing chloric restriction and you were doing any kind of intermittent fasting, according to the definitions we were recently covering, at least 14 hours of fasting, you're doing intermittent fasting. So, I would say just however it works best for you. I like playing around with different things. I recently started doing a meal before my workouts, and I've been losing, it was about three pounds now, almost five pounds in the past couple of weeks. So, I think it's worth experimenting and finding whatever you feel best doing, because I did my workouts fasted for so many years because I thought I was getting more mitochondrial biogenesis from that. When it turns out, it's really just the exercise that's doing that. Personally, I've been finding it fun to play around with that and to experiment. Ultimately, I've been having better workouts, having a small meal, not a huge meal, just a small meal before working out. I'm still doing intermittent fasting, according to those definitions, and I'm getting better results, which for me, I'm trying to focus on what the outcome is. It sounds like you are also interested in three to five pounds of fat loss. So, it made me think of my personal experience, but I think it really will just come down to what kind of caloric deficit you're creating, whether you're doing a 16-hour fast or longer or shorter. As long as the calories are equated, you're going to get the same amount of fat loss, whether you eat right after or if you fast longer during the day. That's my take on it. What about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Before that, what do you think about the collagen and creatine specifically for taking those?

Vanessa Spina:
in terms of the fat loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, she should break her fast with collagen and creatine right after her session and then eat a meal.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I think those are probably great for boosting. I mean creatine has been proven in the science to help boost lean body mass. And there's lots of meta-analysis showing that it increases fat loss in women. So it definitely can help, including that in your routine. Having it right after a session, I don't think it matters when you take it. If you have it right after your session, in terms of the timing, I don't think it matters. And the same with collagen. As long as you have it sometime during your eating window. But I can't really speak to the specifics with regards to fasting for 16 hours or not.

Melanie Avalon:
And I think we've talked about it a lot on this show about there's this idea that you have to have the protein right after the exercise and that's not necessarily the case. And I really think it's about what works best for you. I would have a little bit of a different approach if I was a professional bodybuilder or that's my job and then it would be a little bit more specific. But for the everyday person just wanting to exercise, maintain and gain muscle, follow the healthy diet that works for them, I really would do the window that feels the best for both the exercise and the hunger overall and all the things. So I eat regardless of whatever activity I do during the day, I always eat way later at night. And that's worked even with doing M-sculpt where I go in and do these sessions earlier in the day where it's creating really intense muscle proteins, synthesis, signaling in my muscles and I don't eat until later that night. Well, this was absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can submit your own questions to the show at questions at ifpodcast.com. If you would like to come on the show as a featured guest, we are going to start having some guest interviews. So for that, go to ifpodcast.com/submit and then you can fill out a form there to submit to share your story on the show. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 389, they'll have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and really enjoyed the questions and the study that we talked about, so looking forward to our next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Okay, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Aug 18

Episode 383: Red Light Mask, Hyaluronic Acid, Ketone Breath, Diet Wars, Processed Food Addiction, Nitrates, Nitrites, Red Meat, And More!