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Welcome to Episode 421 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, Intermittent Fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with a very special listener guest today. We've been doing some episodes in this listener guest series, and it is just so, fun because for so long, for years and years and years, I've been doing this show and putting out content for everybody. And now I feel like it's time to actually talk with you guys and get your stories and hear your thoughts and your fasting experience. So I am just loving doing this. And today's guest has such an incredible story. I'm here with Pamela Wakeman. She is from Arizona, and she has a really incredible story about her fasting journey, and in particular, how it really helped her with navigating menopause and a lot of the symptoms that go with that. And she has so many experiences. So I have so many questions for her. And, and actually, to start it off, Pamela, when I was reading your story that you sent in, I thought it was so funny. So basically, you first found intermittent fasting because you thought Dr. Minnie Peltz's book fast like a girl was about running. What happened there?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, well, because yes, definitely I have been running long distance events for, you know, like a decade and I'm always looking for women focused sort of coaching. And I want to say there's even a blog that I was following before I moved to Colorado before I moved to Arizona. So maybe it was like 15 years ago now.

But I thought it was called Fast Like a Girl. And that's how I like Google that. And I came up with Mindy Pels book. But it wasn't until I actually heard her on Mel Robbins podcast that I understood like what she was really about.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I love that. Did you listen to my interview? I interviewed her on my other show, or was it this show, my other show, I think.

Pamela Wakeman
It was, I think it was a show. Let me Google really quick. She's definitely going to be a fasting lady.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I actually I had her on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, she was really, really great.

The work that she does is so profound and like we were talking about the beginning, she really understands adopting fasting for, for women's hormones and things like that. The beginning of your fasting journey. So you were exposed to her content. Did you, how did you feel? Were you skeptical? Were you excited? Did you immediately jump in? How did you start?

Pamela Wakeman
I had a boss, the manager at work mentioned to me about his fasting experience and it sounded kind of out there at the time. And I thought, good for him, those are pretty lofty goals.

As a couple of years had gone by, I started to have issues from everything from joint pain to hip issues to carpal tunnel syndrome, tennis elbow. I mean, it was all like one thing after the other after the other. And I was not the type of person who had these issues in the past. I had running injuries, but these were all unrelated and coming out of nowhere. And so I started to seek out ways that I could sort of help myself. And so when I heard Mindy talking about healing yourself through fasting, it put a whole different lens on fasting for me. It wasn't about weight loss, which I definitely had through menopause, I was gaining weight faster than I ever had, which was also surprising and a little scary. But the fasting in terms of inducing autophagy, this was incredibly interesting to me. And I thought, I need to try this right away because I was just about to have another hip surgery.

And I was thinking to myself, maybe I could have avoided this had I already had delved into fasting and multi-day fasting to be able to regenerate cells and restore my metabolism or reset as Minnie Pels likes to say. So yeah, I jumped in. Short answer, I jumped right in and started and built my way up to a 16-8 fast. And then I had been following her for about three months. And then she hosted a 72-hour fast at the beginning of the year, January. And I thought, oh boy, is this even safe? Like I started to question how I was even going to make it through. Because there's all these preconceived ideas of what going without food means in our society. I'm raising, she's 19 years old now, but at the time, my daughter was having issues navigating our diet culture and looking a certain way and feeling a certain way in your clothes.

And every time some of those thoughts that I had grown up with would come out of my mouth, and she would just look at me like, what is wrong with you? You can't say these things anymore. Like you can't go without food for a certain amount of time. And I'm like, but wait, this is under a different lens now. We're not talking about going without food because we are trying to lose weight and we just want to tough it through and get to the next day. And then just go and eat the same diet or eat the same kinds of foods that you were eating before. This is about you are emotionally and mentally aware of what you're doing. You're not doing it to punish yourself. You're doing it to unlock the power of your body to be able to heal itself. And sure, drop some fat or burn some fat, which is like a whole different viewpoint from losing weight. Losing water weight and losing muscle comes from dieting in an unhealthy way or in a way that's dysfunctional.

Pamela Wakeman
My daughter was in our society pushes forth, but this ability to sort of trigger ketosis and use those ketones to burn body fat. I mean, this was just so intriguing to me.

And trying to share it to my daughter as it was like, they were even skeptical because they were like, this doesn't sound healthy. This sounds scary. You shouldn't do this. So I really had to dive in and understand the science behind it before I could go back and talk to them about it more fully.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so many things there. Did your daughters come around to your perspective or how did that end up?

Pamela Wakeman
You know, my youngest is still of the mindset where she feels like she's young and she can, you know, wants to eat whatever she wants because she's young and doesn't want to deprive herself. And so, like, I feel like we've kind of met in the middle where she feels, you know, like she still wants to eat certain foods, but, like, she understands what those foods now can do to her metabolism. And so, she's making a conscious choice not because she feels entitled, because, you know, she's young and her body will burn, you know, calories or have a faster metabolism, but more because she just wants to be able to experiment with different types of foods.

And as long as she's aware of what's, you know, when she can control, you know, the types of foods that she's eating, like, for instance, you know, she does want to cut out sugar now because she understands, you know, what it can do to your skin. You know, having multiple reasons beyond just losing weight to look good is really more of an intrinsic motivator than just, you know, I want to look good in my clothes. My other daughter is more, she's cutting out alcohol, so she's looking at it from a different perspective where she's just like, I'm done, you know, going out with my friends and getting drunk on the weekends and partying. I'm really going to be more actively taking responsibility for my health from a health perspective, from a I want to be cleaner. I want to eat healthier whole foods and, you know, make sure that I'm not getting any toxins, you know, in my body. So, both of them coming from different perspectives and both of them very, very important for the whole, this whole process of fasting, because there's so many different pathways to detox, to be able to allow our bodies to be able to fast, you know, most efficiently. So, I feel like I'm having impact, but it's just different for different, maybe different age ranges, probably.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting. And I don't think I'll ever have kids.

One of the reasons I don't want to is I don't want to deal with the issue or the challenge of raising them the way I would want them to live with health choices and things like that, but also supporting, you know, personal freedom and agency. And literally, I just, it's just too much for me to deal with. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.

Pamela Wakeman
No, it's totally a lot. I was running under my, I could hear my parents' voices in my head as I was hunting my kids.

And then it wasn't until, I mean, I went through a divorce and I started to become my own person. I was going through menopause. I was really understanding who I was for the first time. And from that lens, I could actually parent my kids in a more effective way, I think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that. It's ironic because I feel, especially on my other show, I feel like I read so many books that touch on all this, so I'm learning a lot, but I don't think I'll ever actually practically implement it.

And something I think about a lot actually is, so this is not fasting, and I'm not endorsing fasting for kids. It's, you know, 18 or older, but food choices, like the healthy food choices you make, I also feel conflicted about that because on the one hand, I wish, like I wish I had been raised eating like non-processed foods and whole foods and healthy foods, but I ate, you know, all the junk. And it's like I have all these really great memories involving like junk food. So it's this weird dichotomy of like having fondness surrounding these foods that I no longer eat, wondering what it would have been like if I'd never eaten them. It's just really intriguing. It's interesting to think about.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, like the other day, I mean, like when I was growing up, my dad would be like, don't eat all that cool whip, you know, because it's bad for you, it's full of sugar. But like now I see on like ketogenic, like blogs or whatever, they'll have recipes with like, not you know, sugar free cool whip, like make these great desserts. And like you can eat the whole tub. It's like, Oh, awesome.

Like, you know, it's, it's again, a whole different point of view. Like you want the fat in your diet now you want to be able to, you know, feel satiated, and we do need fat in our diet to do that. So that does, you know, bring up like the conjure up like the old junk foods of yesteryear.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and speaking of the food, and your personal diet, the foods that you've eaten historically and then when you started fasting, how did that change for you personally?

Pamela Wakeman
When I first heard Mindy talking, she would say, talk about this story about this man that she was training or she was coaching and how he would eat the same foods, but just in a smaller eating window. And so to me, I guess I wanted to start that way so I wouldn't feel like I was really dieting or making a huge life change all at once. So I didn't change much of my diet. I just compressed my eating window.

And then as I started to maybe drop a few, I started to gain momentum and think, oh, well, it's working. What else can I do to make it even more effective? And so I started to learn about detoxing my body from I started to eat more meat, but I realized that the kind of meat I was eating had to be a little bit cleaner, couldn't just go out and eat any ribeye. It really should be a grass-fed, grass-finished ribeye if I'm going to be able to eat the whole thing and have the fat be of benefit to my body versus pulling in all the chemicals from the pesticides that the cattle eat. So that started to just build on itself. So I stopped eating grains because grains, again, are one of those foods that are sprayed with toxic chemicals.

And I started to replace these foods with other foods that had more protein because having already been clued into the fact that women in menopause have to have even more protein in their diet from reading the book Roar, which is about women who are active, very active, and want to keep staying active even through menopause. There are protein needs that you have to, you really have to maintain. So just finding foods that have more protein and finding ways to just sneak in protein wherever I could, but still fast. So that was kind of tricky, trying to get in enough protein and still stay in a fasting state or a fasted state.

But then I went all into what am I cooking with and how am I cooking these foods? I'm cooking with pots and pans that have Teflon all over them and I'm storing them in plastic containers and I'm using aluminum foil to cook on when I barbecue. It's things like that. It's like, oh, wait a minute. These things are impacting how the nutrition of the food is actually being absorbed in my body or not being absorbed for that matter. So I had to make big changes in the kitchen to get rid of the plastics and the toxic kitchen cookware.

And then beyond that, then it led into, and I know you're familiar with this, the cosmetics, cleaner cosmetics, because I'm living in Tucson where it's really dry. So I'm using all creams, moisturizers where I'm using a lot of it. So is it clean or is it full of different kinds of chemicals that impact my hormonal system? So yeah, everything is impacting the way my body reacts to the foods ultimately that I'm eating, because if the foods aren't able to find a way into my cells because they're blocked by toxins, then I'm not doing the best that I can do for my body.

But this took a while. It took a good year to figure out. Had I known all this at the very beginning, it probably would have been too overwhelming, and I might have stalled out and not continued on with it.

Pamela Wakeman
So I'm glad that I had the chance to just ease my way into it and learn about all this slowly and through different people. Mindy Pels was one person, and ultimately I did actually get a certification with her to be a coach for Fast Like a Girl so that I can help other women enter into that lifestyle.

But also, it's good to have lots of different teachers and really vary the different teachings and understand things from different perspectives, because there's so much out there and a lot of it is conflicting, and to weed through it is tricky. So you have to view it from the lens of your life and what's reasonable for you, or else you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.

Melanie Avalon
You are touching on something that I think so many people experience, and this happened to my friend really recently, which is that when you start this health journey, you said something about how it's a good thing that you weren't exposed to all this information right at the beginning because you would have been overwhelmed. And I think that happens so often with people.

If they want to make change, they can almost feel stuck. If they realize all the things they need to change compared to it being an evolving journey where at least for me personally, what I experienced and what I think a lot of people experience and I'm hearing with you is that when you find it's kind of like the gateway drug, but like the thing that works like fasting for you and you feel the difference and you feel the benefits, then you get excited about everything that you get to learn. And then you can slowly tackle all the things. At least for me, it was like, oh, okay, now what can I do next? And so I really think people can switch that mindset from a potential fear-based mindset of all the things they have to do to one of empowerment of all the things they get to do on their own timeline, on their own pace, or at their own face. Was that sort of your experience? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
In fact, more recently, you know, when I was listening to your podcast, Vanessa was talking about autophagy and she was citing a study where, and I hope I get this right and do her justice, but she had said that there is the same amount of autophagy or to trigger the same amount of autophagy from a 72-hour fast, you can get the same amount or same effect from doing a 30-minute strength or resistance training workout, which is like to me, like that says, okay, so now after I've been on this fasting journey, I'm learning something new that maybe I don't want to do like, maybe my, I can do like a 72-hour fast a couple of times a year, but maybe I don't want to do them off more often than that. And in, you know, to replace that or in addition to that, I can do some, you know, I can really get more resistance training in and kind of extend the amount of time that I was doing it to get the same effect.

That to me kind of blows my mind because, you know, now I have two different tools at my disposal that I can use to get the kind of healing that I'm looking for. And yeah, I think that the more you kind of dive into this world, the more tools you find and the more varied they are, I think that's important because your body needs to, from what I understand, your body really needs to switch it up and to be, you know, confused a little bit so that it has to adapt and learn something new. And then that adaptation kind of makes those changes in your body. And that's where you start to see, you know, the physical changes too.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Vanessa, she's amazing at finding all of these incredible studies, especially around things like protein and autophagy and training. And yeah, I vaguely remember her talking about that one. Something else you touched on that I love is the exposing yourself to different ideas. I think this is so important, like always having an open mind and, you know, engaging with all different ideas and perspectives.

And it's interesting. So one I got reminded of when you were talking was, and we haven't aired this yet at the time of us personally recording, but by the time this episode comes out, it will have aired. So episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman, who's well known for the Forks Over Knives documentary and some books surrounding that. He co-wrote the Whole Foods diet with John Mackey, who is the former CEO and founder, co-founder of Whole Foods. And he has a company called We Be Calm, but he's really amazing and he's very much in the vegan sphere. He brought up actually the concept of toxins and animal fat. And I was saying, well, we could eat, you know, grass fed, grass finished and things like that. And then he was saying, well, no, actually there's not much difference between the toxins and grass fed, grass finished versus conventional because of how saturated these persistent organic pollutants are. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting. So maybe, maybe we should, well, A, I need to look into that more and B, maybe that means we should actually leaner meat, you know, regardless. And so then for episode 414, which I realized comes before that, but we recorded it out of order. You'll have to listen to that episode because we, I went down the rabbit hole trying to find the studies on this. It wasn't very promising, basically, basically there, there does seem to be on the one hand, there does seem to be similar compounds in animal fat, even if it's grass finished organic. I do think it's slightly less, but either way it sounds like going leaner with the meat in particular can actually reduce your exposure to those compounds. But then it's ironic because then there's things like fish where the main, you know, problem with fish is mercury. And that's actually preferentially stored in protein, not in fat. So going leaner with fish doesn't really address the mercury problem. It's so, and the reason I bring this up is because like you were saying, there's so much information out there and so many different conflicting perspectives that, well, A, to tie into the earlier theme, it could be overwhelming or B, it could be empowering because it means, you know, we're always learning and we're always finding what works for us personally. Yeah. So I'm not trying to scare people away from eating, you know, fatty, grass fed, grass finished meat. I personally still think it's really healthy. So I differ a little bit, but it was a really interesting conversation. You'll have to listen and let me know what you think.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, because I mean, one of the cool things about Mindy Pels was that she took it beyond just the fast like a girl, and she just recently released a book called Eat Like a Girl, and it really is composed of a lot of vegan or vegetarian recipes, which I wasn't expecting. I was expecting, I guess, because of the focus on protein, I was expecting more meat-based meals.

So when I started to make these foods, I was like, well, this is way out of my comfort zone, number one, because I wasn't, I'm not a vegetarian. But number two, it exposed me to the possibilities of eating more vegetarian meals, because I don't, like I wasn't, I'm just not familiar with like, eating things like tofu and tempeh, and just understanding how to prepare these foods so that they're not like going to attack your, you know, metabolism, like, you know, the different toxins that come from eating plants, like that I wasn't even aware of before I learned about this, you know, the things that kind of create different blockages in your body, like spinach and kale, I guess I used to think, okay, the more the better and now I'm like, okay, but not if it's not cooked, oxalates, yeah, oxalates, don't cook it too much, you know, cook it enough where you're breaking down the oxalates so that you know, you can eat some of these foods for the nutritional value. So it's, it's, again, it's tricky understanding just based navigating the foods that you eat, and which ones are safest to eat, and which ones you really have to understand how to prepare them or pair them with other foods in order for them to be, you know, the safest way to eat them. So yeah, I've gone from like, learning about fasting to now I'm getting into, you know, the nutrition side of things and the strength training side of things. So it's, it's just evolving, which is why I guess I consider myself like, recreational bio hacker, because I'm trying these different things without, you know, too much like concern about like, the effects, like, I just want to see what will happen and then, you know, kind of pivot from there.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that approach. That is something I remember from interviewing and reading her book, Dr.

Peltz is she's, she's on the lower protein side of things, which I personally, I mean, I feel like it's obvious if people listen to this show, we, I just think a focus on protein is so, so important. I just think it's the most nourishing thing for our body, especially when it's paired with fasting, because, you know, you have the, the fasting period to reduce MTOR and IGF-1, these signaling pathways for growth and stimulate, like you were mentioning, autophagy and stimulate all these repair systems in the body. And then when you eat, that's when you're doing the actual repair and you need that protein for, for not only for growth of muscle and support muscle mass, which is so key for health and longevity and metabolic health, but also for just hunger. Like, you know, a lot of people struggle with hunger and there's, you know, this protein leverage hypothesis that we will feel hungry until we meet our protein needs. So yeah, protein is definitely one where there's all different opinions. How much protein do you try to get daily?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I don't really track. I mean, I kind of like look at the foods that I have and I know kind of in my head, like how much a serving has. And so I kind of, I don't kind of, I do have, I have an issue with hunger. So I really do actually take in probably more than maybe somebody else who like my husband, for instance, he's like, he, I mean, again, he's men and women fast differently and metabolize differently. So I don't mean to compare the two, but I definitely see a difference in our hunger levels.

And so I definitely need to eat additional protein to get, you know, to feel satiated. And, you know, I was doing butter in my coffee for a while. And, and I think for a while, like it worked, but then I found that, you know, it was probably an added calorie intake that maybe I didn't need. And that I, if I, you know, fat, maybe with more fat with my first meal around lunchtime that I was, you know, that was okay. That was a different sort of sort of composition of a meal versus having the fat early in the day. Cause I did want to have benefit from the, the, the fasted workout. I like the fasted workout. I it's, I don't work out for very long cause I don't have a lot of time, but I, you know, from, from what I'm learning, you don't really have to work out for very long if you're, if you're doing, you know, targeted exercise. So I feel like a fasted workout feels really good, you know, for my body. So yeah, no more butter in my coffee, but I'm still doing the MCT oil in my coffee. I love that. I love the creaminess of it. It just gives it a different taste and texture. It feels a little bit more like a kind of a meal. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, but then I definitely like scoops of cottage cheese or grass fed, you know, Greek yogurt later on with, I guess in the evening, I'll have that with berries to, you know, kind of calm down for the evening and feel full. And so that I can have a good night's sleep too. That helps.

Melanie Avalon
well. Cottage cheese and berries are two of my favorite things. That's amazing. I love that.

Well, actually, okay, where do I want to go from here? So, well, I wanted to touch on something that you, so you mentioned earlier about your daughter trying the not drinking thing. I feel like the whole sober curious movement is very popular right now. In your intake form, you're talking about, what were you saying about, about alcohol?

Pamela Wakeman
haul that I guess about six months into my fasting I started hearing about dry farm wines and I was like oh I'm all over that you know because now I can drink wine and not feel guilty about it or whatever you know the sugar you know was it was not the added sugar that you would get from just a wine off the shelf and I never really paid much attention I would just get whatever wine was you know affordable at my local you know a wine shop or whatever but then I started doing the dry farm wines and I really enjoyed it but I realized that for me personally it was too much that I needed to just in general I needed to cut back on any alcohol not all but definitely during the week and like really be mindful of what I was taking and like you know going to restaurants and all their beautiful cocktail menus it was like you know okay you know there were like treats and you know instead of a dessert I would have a cocktail I'm like what am I doing like this is this is this is too much it just feels like too much and it feels like I'm standing still like I'm not I'm making all these progress forward with with fasting and with you know healing my body and then I'm going and you know drinking these drinks that I don't really need but I'm doing it because it looks fun and you know I want to relax on the weekends and so I just had to find different ways like different alternative drinks like kava drinks and adaptogenic drinks to kind of replace you know because I still had that habit of like maybe going for a cocktail in the evening but just replace it with something a little bit less less alcohol because the so many calories and alcohol I was just I felt like I was just like I wasn't progressing forward so it for me it was really a blocker that I had to address and I hear people talk about like oh we should only have a glass of wine at night it's like a glass like who has a glass of wine I always have like at least two glasses of wine like and that is like you know if it's like 200 calories of glass then like that's my whole workout today and like I'm not working out so that I can burn calories so I can have more wine like this is not what this is supposed to be this is about moving forward and getting you know for longevity sake now you know this is about feeling better not just standing still so I I guess I fought it for a long time Melanie I wanted to keep my wine and keep my tonics and I had to finally admit that this is what was holding me back so I just think that you know the women that I coach I I'm going to be part of it like oh you should probably cut out you know cut down on your alcohol no you should really cut down on your alcohol but you know of all the drinks that I love the most you know I do love the dry farm wine

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I obviously love this topic. And I think it's so individual. And people really have to know themselves and find what works for them.

And the dry farm wines piece is, if you are drinking, it's such a key, it's such a key difference. Because if I were to drink because I do drink wine every night. And if I, if I were to drink conventional wine, I would just feel horrible. And I can't believe I was like, I was in a phase like in college. And after when I was just drinking like cheap wine all the time. And I literally could not do that. Now I would feel so unwell the next day.

So I have to stick to my, my dry farm wines. I actually even went, it's funny yesterday, I went to total wine and more I was like, I'm going to see if I can find wines that seem to meet dry farm wines criteria, which is organic, low alcohol, 12.5% or less free of added sugar free of added sulfites. I wouldn't be able to know if it was tested for mold and toxins and all that stuff. I literally stood in the aisle, I was probably there for like, and I knew where to go. I was like, I'm gonna go to the French section, I'm gonna look at the Loire Valley, I'm gonna find like a low alcohol gamay. That's organic. Like I got this. I was there for like 45 minutes and couldn't find anything. So yeah, there's definitely something special to dry farm wines if you are drinking. The thing I was thinking from your format you're filling out was you were saying, because I'm glad you put this in here, because I have heard people say this, which is that drinking alcohol will hijack the liver for detox for the next 22, 72 hours. So the body will not use the fasting window to burn fat.

So I don't know where that idea started. I think maybe that's the case for some people. I can say definitively, at least from my experience that at the very least, it's not always true. And the reason I know that is because I have had a glass of wine every night with the exception of I did try not drinking for a year to see if I felt any better. I did not. So I was like, well, we tried that. I know that I've pretty much had a glass of wine every night for like a decade, minus that one year. And during that decade, I have definitely gained and lost weight. So that negates that idea always being true, if that makes sense. Like basically, I know I've lost weight. I know I burn fat while having wine in the evenings.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, and it feels like you should, right? Because it's like not a sugar alcohol.

I mean, it's a sugar alcohol, but it's not the added sugar, right? Like so you, it really is just the alcohol the liver is burning down or breaking down.

Melanie Avalon
which it would burn first, too.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah and if your body's used to like the same amount like every night I feel like your body adapts so it's probably breaking it down quicker that's my opinion because I guess on days where you drink more and where you know where you've had more than you normally would then maybe that would would be the case you need extra time to recover or your your liver would have more time that it needed to recover but then you could also take some charcoal activated charcoal and that could help you know speed things along too which I totally believe in now since I've been using that you know when I eat things like lots of carbs that I didn't mean to eat but you know they were the only thing that was available or something like that.

Melanie Avalon
I think we might have talked about that on the show, that idea before. It's really interesting.

I mean, it does make me think, cause I recently interviewed, I haven't aired it yet, but Dr. Kate Shanahan, I had her on the show again. She's the one who wrote deep nutrition and the fat burn fix. And then her most recent book is called dark calories. She's the person who really made the whole idea of seed oils being a problem. She's the one who kind of shown the flashlight on that in the beginning and is continuing to do so. But she does talk a lot in that book about how, you know, some people with metabolic issues and insulin resistance and stuff, how they almost like never burn fat, they're pretty much, you know, always burning sugar. So I could definitely see situations where with certain signaling, certain people may not burn fat in the fast. So I can see, basically I can see how it might be a thing, but I don't, but saying like, Oh, if you drink, then you're not going to burn fat for 72 hours. That's just not a true statement, like across the board for everybody.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, okay. That's good to know. I'm glad that you brought that up because that was a fear of mine for sure.

Melanie Avalon
You heard of Z-biotics? Yes. Mm-hmm. Sure. I'm obsessed with them too. I just found them sort of a few months ago and they're super cool. It's like a GMO probiotic that breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the toxic byproduct of alcohol in the stomach. It's... Yeah, I love that. But in any case, I super applaud you for knowing what works for you and, you know, really it requires a lot of self-awareness and commitment. So, kudos to you.

What type of cava do you have?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I was drinking, I was trying Trucava, which is a product that was on store shelves. It's like a soda, but I already use element, element tea for hydration. So I thought, you know, I could make a cocktail out of element tea and soda water and cava and kind of create my own concoctions so that I could have different flavors when I wanted them and just experiment with like different dosages of the cava, so it would be like a tincture of cava from, you know, health food store and just see what kind of effect it would have and, you know, how much I really needed to feel and to get an effect that I liked without feeling too sort of out of it, you know, because I still have things, you know, I still have to be productive even at the end of the day. So I don't want to feel like, okay, I'm done.

I'm just going to go sit on the couch now, you know? But cava, you know, ashwagandha, those are the two main ones. And yeah, I think those are the two main ones for drinks that I would use.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. There's something I want to, there's a brand, I haven't tried it yet. They're supposed to send it to me. I need to follow up because I'm dying to try it.

But they make a product called, I think it's called like hard ketones. And basically, I haven't tried it yet. But I watched their video with Tim Ferriss about it. And apparently, I didn't know this. Apparently, there's a ketone that it's not. Okay, I don't want to like say it wrong. It's like an intoxicating ketone. So like basically, it will give you a buzz. But it's not alcoholic. And it's literally just a ketone. And they've turned this into a drink. I'm very intrigued by this concept. Because I always thought of ketones as like the energy substrate, not an intoxicating type feeling, not to say we should all get intoxicated all the time, but basically getting like this, you know, this feeling that you might be desiring from alcohol, getting it from ketones in this drink. So I will report back listeners because I'm very intrigued by this brand. One thing okay, so going back to the fasting, one thing I definitely wanted to touch on is I love that you when you start so when you started fasting, you used the prep for the surgery as a way to jumpstart your fast. Is that right? Like that you had to fast anyways? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
That's true, I did. I had a surgery coming up for my hip and the timing was such that I could use that as an opportunity because the doctors make you fast for varying lengths of time before surgery. So it seemed like, okay, I'm doing it anyway, I'm just gonna keep it going. And that concept of being able to speed up the recovery, kind of sort of that momentum kept me going.

So I didn't need any like fasted snacks or any kind of special, not special, but like I didn't take in anything else other than water because I wanted to see if this was like really going to help me heal faster. Hard to say because the surgeries these days are so, you know, amazing that, you know, especially for hips, so you're up and about in like a couple of days anyway. But yeah, I mean, I was definitely, gosh, I think I was running a race by Thanksgiving, I wanna say. So yeah, I think that, I think it definitely would have helped. I also had COVID like three weeks after. I fasted through that with element and water and slept. And so, I mean, I don't know. I definitely didn't have it for very long, maybe three days, but I had it and it went away and I felt, you know, great afterwards. So I feel like it's also a great way to sort of heal from like colds and, you know, as long as you're getting, I guess fluids, you know, I didn't feel that it was necessary to eat anything. And if it's gonna make me heal faster then what it's all the better.

Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. I loved reading that from you because it's such a similar response that I have, which is basically if there's ever something that would cause me to not be eating. So for example, like prepping for a colonoscopy or like you said, getting COVID, I'm like, yay, this, I see it as like as a, as a way to have a longer fast. It's actually sort of exciting. I mean, being sick isn't exciting and colonoscopies aren't exciting, but the longer fast is, is nice.

So I love that. It's kind of like a little hack that people can do. So for me, for example, fasting, I do the same thing fasting wise every day. And I have essentially for a decade with very little deviation. I don't think that's for everybody. I think a lot of people like you were mentioning earlier, do well with switching things up and you seem to be pretty comfortable with, you know, switching up your fast and finding what works for you. So, so how do you do that? Like how often do you switch around your fasting protocol? How planned is it versus not planned? Do you ever not fast? What is that like for you?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I definitely take a day where I don't fast. I guess I try to, for the most part, do five days of fasting and then two days I'll switch it up and it's usually the weekends.

So it depends if I'm training for something or not. I'm mainly, I'm pushed to like, I like to get to the 17 hour mark because Mindy Pels has different lengths of fast that she talks about and really has research behind. Then she says the 17 hours is really like a sweet spot for autophagy, for starting autophagy. And so I try to get at least a 17 hours, if not, you know, to 20 hours to get that effect. So sometimes I'll do like a one meal a day, if I'm not, you know, if I was one of my days and then one day I won't fast at all. That's pretty much, you know, just because I like to have dinner, you know, with my husband in the evenings, that's kind of our time to catch up. I feel like that meal, I don't want to skip on. So it's much easier to skip out, skip the earlier meals because I'm so busy during the day working. And again, I think that just switching it up is really key because yeah, I feel like the body sort of gets used to a certain like schedule of, you know, a pattern. Then the progress kind of stalls a little bit.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that you can do that so intuitively. Does your husband fast? No.

Pamela Wakeman
But I have been switching over to ketogenic cooking. And so he'll eat the dinners that I make that are keto.

But he still, yeah, he likes to have his breakfast. So he doesn't fast. But if he did, he'd probably disappear.

Melanie Avalon
He's very lean. And how do you find doing things socially? Does it ever become an issue? Do people give you grief? Do you adapt pretty easily? What is that like?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, like, socially, I'll try to save it my non fasting day for a day that I'm gonna, you know, go out with friends, I'll eat whatever, you know, is there. And, you know, right now, I'm enjoying the fact that I'm getting a lot of great Mexican food down here in Tucson, which is new for me. So I'll take advantage of that.

Yeah, I mainly like will try if it's not something that I'm planned for, I don't get grief, and it's pretty easy for me to sort of just like, if I'm going to go some to some of his house or to a party, I'll bring, you know, my own, like, food that, you know, I'm going to share, but it'll be food that I know I can eat. So that really makes it easier for me to, you know, eat, you know, while I'm there. And then, you know, I can usually have my choice of different kinds of drinks. So somehow I can I make it work. And it doesn't seem to bother anybody. I think that I did probably get well, I, my daughters say that I probably lost maybe too much weight in the beginning. Because, again, it was sort of like the momentum like just like I was just continuing continuing just to see how far I could take it. And I felt like I was doing okay. But like, they're like, when they saw me and came to visit for Thanksgiving, they're like, Yeah, you should probably like, you know, even it out a little bit now, maybe cut back a little bit on the cut fasting, because you look really good.

But you know, you don't need to lose any more weight. So, so I think there is a tipping point, you know, where, because the, the ketones or the ketosis, like, it does make you feel really good. And it does make you feel like you have a lot of energy. And so moving past a meal does kind of feel effortless. So just being mindful of the fact that like, Oh, yeah, you still need to get that nutrition in though, because that's really what's, you know, gonna make your body performance fast. So rate it rated it a little bit. You

Melanie Avalon
if you need to, yeah. Yeah, so you said you lost around 20 pounds since September?

Pamela Wakeman
Since September, yeah. I mean, I started back in, I started HRT, like your hormone replacement therapy around June. And I swim quite a bit. So I lost about 15 pounds from just the hormone replacement and the additional exercise.

And then when I found fasting, that really like was the additional, I guess, trigger that I needed to lose the extra, you know, weight that I gained over the, I guess, you know, over 20 years, I really did just sort of, because I did, didn't pay much attention. And I was raising kids and I was cooking for them. And I just didn't pay much attention to, to myself. Really, I wasn't taking care of myself. And that's one of the great things about menopause is that, you know, you do find, finally find the time to take care of yourself and realize that your importance

Melanie Avalon
I love that. And I will say to the HRT point, I recently posted in the Facebook group, a post asking people's opinion on HRT. And I don't think I have ever had so many enthusiastic responses.

Like literally, there was, well, A, so many responses, B, every single one was like shouting to the rooftops about how it changed their life. So I was like, oh, I need to dive into this some more. So I'm glad that that was really helpful for your experience.

Pamela Wakeman
I did get the same, I don't know if this is a thing, but if you've heard of this before, but I went to my doctor and she gave me a hard time. I took the hormone testing or the blood test that said you're definitely in menopause, your hormone levels definitely show signs of that you've been in menopause for a while, so it was probably 55 at the time or 54. So I thought the next, you know, obvious next step would be to go on hormone replacement therapy. It was kind of tough to get her to agree to it and so I really had to kind of go outside of my, you know, normal doctors and go online and find, you know, like an online prescriber who would be able to do that for me.

You know, there's lots of them out there now, but at the time it seemed kind of risky because I didn't know anybody else who was doing that kind of thing, but now it's just so much more prevalent because, you know, there is this hesitancy from doctors to just sort of prescribe it because of whatever risk factors that came along with like studies that were back in the 90s that had these different sort of like alerts to that women like shouldn't be taking hormone replacement therapy because of breast cancer risks or blood clotting risks and things like that. So I just felt like I was a good candidate for it. I knew my health, you know, history and I didn't have the kind of risks that they were talking about. So in order to get what I needed, I had to go outside of my normal doctors. I'm glad I did because I got the help I needed and now I'm looking for new doctors.

Melanie Avalon
I should honestly try to do an episode on this and Peter Atea, I don't know if you listen to him. You said you do. Yes. Yeah. So he has so many amazing episodes on this, which is basically, there was like this study that drew conclusions about HRT and breast cancer in women, but it was completely like just not accurate in it and how it presented the risk. And it basically made all these doctors fearful of HRT when the risks just from what, if you listen to him, you'll just be like, okay, they're just not there.

There's like really a lot of benefits that can come. And so it's interesting, especially because pharmaceuticals usually are so easy to be pushed. It's really interesting to me that it's taken so long to come back from that study and the findings of that study. Yeah. Kudos to you too. Being like, no, I need this.

Pamela Wakeman
Well, I mean, I had an x-ray when I was having my hip done and they noticed a fracture in like in my back. I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to him for any issues with my back, but he noticed this and he said, you need to go get a DEXA scan to find out what's going on there.

And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what is happening? Like, I don't understand, you know, why my bone, what's happening to me? Why are my bones suddenly like, and you know, obviously women in menopause, their bones start to, you know, there's bone density is a thing. And so I realized that taking the HRT actually is really good for bone density. And one of the best reasons to take HRT is to maintain bone density, you know, the years, you know, as you get older. So even if it wasn't for, you know, the other symptoms that I had, I might still take it just for that reason alone because of the fracture that I had in my back. So there's that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I'm so, so glad you found that out. Okay. Well, this has been so, so amazing. I think it's really, really empowering for people to hear and just like, I really, really love your mindset and approach to all of this. It's so, I love how you like seek out all these things and you try them and you find what works. It's just really, really amazing and incredible.

What would you like to leave listeners with when people ask you about intermittent fasting for people who, you know, are struggling or haven't even tried it? Like what is your, your big go-to advice or final thought for, for people on fasting?

Pamela Wakeman
It's not something to be feared, it's fasting is something that empowers you to take control of your own health instead of like leaving your health choices and decisions in the hands, all of your choices in the hands of your doctor. You do have choices that you can make on your own and this one has so many potential benefits that it's at least worth a try, you know, move into it slowly and there's no need to rush into it.

I'm one of those people who like wanted to go all in full, you know, 72 hours all at once and that will not work. It just won't work. I mean, you can power through but you'll never want to fast again after that if that's your first experience with it. That's just it's too much too soon. So definitely just try it and you might be surprised for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. I love this so much.

Well, thank you so much, Pamela. Thank you for coming here and sharing your story and all the things. It was, I really had a wonderful time. It was awesome.

And Pamela, how can people best follow your work, all the things?

Pamela Wakeman
Yes, I have a website for Pamela Wakeman Wellness, where I am a certified health coach with open source wellness. And I am also working toward my credential for board certification for health coaching.

And one of the requirements for the certification is that I offer free health coaching to anybody who is looking for health coaching or wants to try it to see if that's something that's for them. And so I thought I'd offer, you know, at least three free sessions to get them started and it's all volunteer basis. But if it's something that, you know, your audience is interested in, I definitely have, like I said, the certification for the Fast Like a Girl coaching, but I'm also health and wellness coaching. So anything under the gamut, I'm definitely, you know, able to accommodate.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So how can people do they just go to your website or how can people contact you for that?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, you can email me at Pamela at PamelaWakemanWellness.com or phwakeman at gmail.com. Either one will hit me and let me know if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, congrats in advance on that.

And for listeners, we will put all of that in the show notes as well. So Pamela Wakeman, wellness.com. The show notes will be at I a podcast.com slash episode 421. And we talked about a lot of things. So definitely check out those show notes. There'll be a full transcript there as well. And if you would like to be a guest on the show, we would love, love to hear your story and have you. So you can actually go to I a podcast.com slash submit and there is a submission form there. So check out that link. And if you have questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I a podcast.com. All right, Pamela. Well, thank you again. So so much. I am sending you all the love and all the good vibes on your journey and we'll have to talk again in the future. Great. I look forward to it. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes, and artwork, library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Mar 29

Episode 415 – Special Guest Matthew Lederman, Finding The Diet That Works For You, Low Protein Benefits, Whole Foods (The Store And Food!), Reducing Added Oils, Toxins In Animal Products, Plant Based Diets, Finding Calm, Stopping Stress With webe kälm, Parenting Paradigms Shift, And More!

webeKalm.com | webeParents.com | connectiondocs.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 415 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SPECIAL GUEST BIO

Matthew Lederman, MD, is a board-certified Internal Medicine Physician and a pioneering thought leader in holistic health. Renowned for his innovative integration of plant-based nutrition, Nonviolent Communication (NVC), trauma-informed care, and lifestyle medicine, Dr. Lederman's work highlights the profound interconnectedness of physical, emotional, and relational well-being.
Dr. Lederman is the co-host of the webe Parents podcast, a platform dedicated to equipping parents with tools and insights to foster emotional connection, resilience, and well-being in their families. His latest book, Wellness to Wonderful, weaves together medical science, psychology, spirituality, and life wisdom to guide individuals toward lasting health, vibrancy, peace, and joy.
He has co-authored six books, including the New York Times Bestseller Forks Over Knives Plan, and was featured in the acclaimed documentary Forks Over Knives. Through these works, he has shared his transformative approach to wellness with audiences around the globe.

In addition to his roles as a clinician, educator, speaker, and corporate advisor, Dr. Lederman has served as Vice President of Medical Affairs at Whole Foods Market, lectured for eCornell, and provided adjunct faculty instruction in medical schools. He also co-created the webe kälm device, designed to promote emotional regulation and soothe the nervous system.

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Books:

The Forks Over Knives Plan: How to Transition to the Life-Saving, Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet

WELLNESS TO WONDERFUL: 9 Pillars for Living Healthier, Longer, and with Greater Joy

The Whole Foods Diet: The Lifesaving Plan for Health and Longevity

Plus, my listeners can get 25% off webe kälm at ifpodcast.com/webe!

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

WEBE KÄLM

Get 25% off webe kälm at ifpodcast.com/webe.

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Get 10% off MD Logic's Health Marine Collagen with code ifpodcast at ifpodcast.com/collagen.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 415 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 415, and I am here today with a very, very special guest. I am so excited about today's episode. So the backstory on today's show, I met Dr. Matthew Letterman, I don't even know now, probably a few years ago, I think, because I've had him on the Melanie Adlon biohacking podcast twice. The backstory is I received information about his work, and I was an immediate yes, because I was so familiar with his background and what he does. So he has co-authored six books, including The New York Times bestseller Forks Over Knives Plan, and he was also in the acclaimed documentary Forks Over Knives. He also authored the book The Whole Foods Diet, and he did that with John Mackey, who's the co-founder and former CEO of Whole Foods. And I'd read that book before I explored Forks Over Knives, so I was super familiar. And when his people reached out to me, it was for his new book at the time, which was called Wellness to Wonderful, Nine Pillars for Living Healthier, Longer, and with Greater Joy. So I had him on the show. We talked about that book. That book was incredible. It was such a holistic approach to health. It went into all the things to work on, you know, when it comes to health. So diet and nutrition and sleep, which Matt and I were just talking about before this, as well as a lot of mindset and social things. And I, because when I started reading that book, Wellness to Wonderful, I wasn't anticipating just how much of it was going to be the mental, emotional, social side of things. So I was really interested in that. So that was a great interview. I will put a link to it in the show notes. And also during all of that, I learned about Matt's incredible products called WeBeCalm, which we will definitely talk about today. It's a really cool device that helps you gamify breathing exercises for kids and adults. I actually gave one to my mom for Christmas. And it's a way to just instantly bring some calm into your life. So that's really amazing.

Melanie Avalon

So I had him back on the show for both that, as well as his podcast, the WeBe Parents podcast, which he co-hosts with his wife, Alana, they actually both wrote the Wellness to Wonderful as well. That was a lot. Matt, by the way, he's also a board certified internal medicine physician, a specialist in something called Nonviolent Communication, which I bet we will talk about in today's show. And he's just super savvy, super knowledgeable and so many of these tools and techniques that can really boost people's health. So I knew we had to have him on this show. So Dr. Letterman, Matt, thank you so much for being here.

Matthew Lederman

Wow, what an introduction. I hope I can live up to all that. That was amazing.

Melanie Avalon

No, no, you definitely, definitely will. I've just so enjoyed having you on the shows and really, really appreciate your work. I was thinking about this before we started. I don't think we actually talked and we might have, but in any of my prior interviews with you, I'm really curious, you worked for, what was your position with Whole Foods for like a long time? What was your position there?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I was the vice president of medical affairs there.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that's okay. So that's like a very impressive title. I wasn't even aware that that was a role at Whole Foods. Like what did you do in that role? That's so cool.

Matthew Lederman

Me and Alona, who's my partner at work and in life, worked for them for 10 years. We helped them open medical centers that treated employees with this comprehensive paradigm. There was doctors and more time with patients. There was a more holistic team with health coaches. There was acupuncture, mental health support. And then we partnered, I mean, as nurse practitioners to different level providers. And then we partnered with like-minded healthcare systems that were focusing on optimizing health and wellbeing and minimizing overtreatment and all of the harmful, unnecessary care that happens in a lot of the conventional healthcare systems. And then we would get specialists that also were focused on dealing with the overtreatment problem. A lot of people think the key to getting good specialists is someone that knows about the obscure diagnosis, but more often than not, the bigger problem is finding specialists that don't overtreat, which can only hurt people and doesn't help them. So it was trying to put together a network. We helped them create an insurance plan that incentivized this type of care and put all that together with them.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. Okay. That is so cool. By the over-trading, do you mean specialists where it's like if you have a hammer, everything's a nail, like they see the thing everywhere or actually over-trading once they diagnose it?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, so there's a lot of things that like blood pressure, it's used blood pressure for an example, they'll give you way too much medication to try and get your number significantly low and make your number look normal. But data shows that if you try to give someone a normal looking blood pressure number with medication, you actually can increase strokes, heart attacks and death. So if your blood pressure is really high, medication is great to get it down as far as decreasing strokes. If it's getting a little bit lower, but getting it to look normal would be considered over treatment because the data shows that it can't help you, it only hurts you. But everybody thinks a normal number means normal health. And if you're getting normal numbers with medication and not die in lifestyle, then that's actually harmful. So that would be an example. There's a screening for cancer, a lot of screenings, there's harms that are not explained. So we inflate the benefit of screening and we under represent the harms from screening so that people can't make an informed decision. So there's two back surgeries, another one way too much happening, using back surgery to treat pain doesn't work. And yet, millions and millions of dollars are spent on doing that to patients who just feel terrible and it doesn't help them.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, statins, would that be one maybe?

Matthew Lederman

Statins for secondary prevention, like if you've had heart attacks or strokes, the data's pretty good. But a lot of people take statins and think, oh, my cholesterol number's down, I'm good, I can eat whatever I want because I'm on the statin. And it doesn't work that way. So just because you have a normal cholesterol number with a statin doesn't mean you have the health of someone who has a normal number because of diet and lifestyle. So they do benefit people, particularly if they've had a heart attack or stroke or something like that before. But it's definitely not, to me it's something you do as an adjunct, not the primary focus of the treatment.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that actually happened to my friend yesterday. He had a heart attack and he didn't see it coming at all and he had completely normal cholesterol levels.

Matthew Lederman

And that's the thing we'll tell people, we'll say, we don't know what normal is for you. I know what your normal is when I put you on a whole food plant-based diet and some exercise, and after six to 12 weeks, I see what your cholesterol does. Because I've had people who have a cholesterol of 200, and they go down to 180 on these diet and lifestyles, and that's a normal cholesterol for them. I've had people that are 140 total cholesterol, and they get down to 190. So 140, even though for most people they'd say, that's great for this person on the American diet with a 140, they actually needed to be down at 90. So it's an indicator, it's not a definition of health, it's an indicator of how your health is doing. Given the other circumstances though, you need to take those into account.

Melanie Avalon

to clarify that was for the employees at Whole Foods that could engage with it.

Matthew Lederman

Yes, that was for the employees, correct?

Melanie Avalon

That's so cool. Did that continue on after you left?

Matthew Lederman

It was great. It showed a 20% reduction in health care cost, health care spend. And then it was Whole Foods was bought by Amazon and it's just a big, big company. And they were looking into, they were started expanding it. When we left, it was sort of, we showed that the pilots worked and they wanted to expand it. But I was, me and Alona were not as excited about just reproduction. We wanted to be more in the creative side of things and adding to it. And we also wanted to expand into what we call connection medicine. And basically once Amazon came and some other things started changing, we decided to go out and do what we wanted to do, but do it on our own so we didn't have to work within the confines of a big corporation and legal systems and things like that. So now I think Amazon, it's so big, they wanted something that they could create and spread very quickly. And this was more grassroots. So I don't know if they continued it in any capacity, but we left five years ago. So I'm not sure what's happened since then.

Melanie Avalon

Gotcha. Yeah, I'm I'm super curious because I've been a whole foods girl for quite a while and it's been interesting to see especially with the Amazon merger and the change and everything. It's been interesting to see it. It's definitely I appreciate now that I can use all my Amazon benefits and it's actually helped. It seems some prices and things like that. I always wonder what's happening behind the scenes though with everything. So very interesting. Okay, so you hinted at it a lot, which is that there's so much to health beyond just like diet and beyond just, you know, what you see in your blood work and things like that. Before we get more into that, I am super curious. This is the intermittent fasting podcast. What are your thoughts? Because you're you come from a whole food plant based diet approach to to health and wellness. What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting for health?

Matthew Lederman

I think the most important thing is that you eat whole plant foods and you minimize or eliminate the processed foods and that includes extracted added oils, extracted added sweeteners, added sodium as much as possible. And the same thing with animal products. You don't have to be, for a majority of chronic illnesses, you don't have to be vegan, but we eat way too many animal products. And there's a lot of reasons that eating no animal products can be a good thing, but regardless of what you decide to do on that end of your own, people have to eat significantly less animal products. I don't know what your thoughts are, Melanie, on animal products or what your audience, do you have a sense of what your audience's view is on animal products?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was just thinking how I'm excited to be having this conversation because I feel like we heavily, the majority of the guests that come on are often in like the paleo or you know, keto type world. And then my former co-host and my current co-host, we're all very big supporters. So I like to say that I am dietary agnostic. I'm dietary agnostic in that I think people can follow diets that work for them. So some people do do well on vegan. I think a lot of people struggle to get enough protein or certain forms of nutrients that might be higher in animal-based foods. Some people do really well on a more animal-based diet. Some people do well on, you know, a very omnivore type approach. So I think it's about finding the diet that works for you. But then I think when you step back from that, there are some key tenets that apply. So and you probably just said all of them, like whole foods, so, you know, cutting out these processed foods, avoiding these additives, this added, you know, sugar and flavors and added sodium and just all these different additives and preservatives, just not good. And then the third thing is I do think it's really important to focus on protein. So that's why I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on protein because I think people get very confused, especially on this show because we talk all the time about the importance of protein. How do you feel about protein intake?

Matthew Lederman

My view on protein is probably going to upset most of your viewers. So I'm trying to make sure that I say clearly up front is that, you know, what feels best for your body. And when I work with clients, ultimately, that's what I want to do is help them check into their bodies and see what feels good. And then I also want them to isolate the variables. So sometimes they make a conclusion because they have compounding variables or there's confusion. For example, some people who start on a plant-based diet, the calorie density is significantly lower. So they can go from 2000 calories per pound to 500 calories per pound, which is a quarter of the calories per pound of food. And if you try to eat the same portion sizes over a period of days, you'll start to have calorie deficiency and you'll feel lower energy and fatigue and cravings. And then they'll go out and they'll say, it must be the protein. I need animal protein. And then they'll go out and eat a big burger, which is like a calorie bolus. And then they feel better. And they say, see, it was the animal products. And what I have to explain to them is you can eat animal products if you want, but what helped you there was the calorie bolus. And we need to adjust your diet to deal with the calorie deficiency. It's not an animal protein deficiency. And then they can still choose to eat animal products, but I want them to do it for the reasons, for the right reasons, if you will, but that makes sense. So I want to make sure people have information. They take that information can make an informed decision about what works best for them. So with that caveat, I tell people that protein should be the last thing you were, it's the first thing everybody's worried about. For me, it's the last thing. In fact, I'm working on ways to get less protein because I eat a whole food plant-based diet. I'm getting excessive amounts of protein. And when we're talking about protein, what we really care about is the essential amino acids. And I'm, I'm blowing away if because of my diet is full of whole foods, there's no added oils and sugars, which are, those are actually devoid of protein oils and sugars give you calories without any protein. So if your diet has a lot of oil and sugar, you can start to get, it's still probably hard, but you can still, you're definitely getting a significant portion of calories without any protein. I don't have that problem because all my calories come with essential amino acids because I'm getting them from whole plant foods. So the problem with too much protein is that you don't store it. It doesn't, it doesn't magically, you know, get stored in the body. It doesn't, you know, you can't eat protein and all of a sudden gets pushed into your biceps. It's floating around and your body eliminates it. So you'll, and that puts stress on the bones and the kidneys and the liver. And the more protein you have that you don't need, the more your body has to work to eliminate it.

Matthew Lederman

And then I have a whole slideshow that I take people through to show them how they determined what is the minimum safe requirements. And then what they do is they put a buffer in there. So the minimum like different organizations that have recommendations for protein for populations, they put a safety buffer in there because each person's a little bit different, but they put something in the, you know, so they'll double the amount that made that the person who had the biggest protein requirement of the group in a test study, they would double that amount. So that's more than double what most people need. So if you're getting what's quote unquote, the minimum requirement, you're still getting a safety buffer of twice as much as you need. So knowing that even if you're getting the, you're just meeting the minimum requirements, you're going to do fine. The recommendation for populations with these minimum requirements is basically saying, if we make this requirement to a population, almost all of them not going to get into any trouble if they follow that. And that's the answer. Yes, they're all going to do fine. So knowing that if I'm working out more, I'm going to eat more calories because I'm going to be hungrier and because I'm burning more calories. And when I eat more calories, guess what? If they're whole plant foods and not oil or sugar, I'm getting more protein. So if I work harder and expend more energy, I'm going to eat more calories and I'm going to get more protein.

Melanie Avalon

I so appreciate this conversation and I think it's really helpful because what's really important to me in life is to interview and talk to people of all different perspectives because if not, I think we get really siloed and it can be hard to know if we're being biased or cherry picking or whatever it may be. So I really appreciate having this conversation. So the first point you made, I want to communicate that I understand it and I see it go the other way as well. So you made the example of how people, you know, might be needing calories so they eat a burger and then they think that they think it was like the protein that made them feel better but really they just needed the calories. I feel like that happens and then I feel like it also happens on the flip side where people might cut out, maybe they go completely plant-based or vegan and they cut out everything and they feel massively better and so then they think that going that restrictive on plant-based only was what it was but maybe it was cutting out all these other things and then in the future they might need to bring back selectively some animal-based products if they need certain nutrients that they're not able to get enough of. So I feel like it can happen both ways.

Matthew Lederman

What are those nutrients that people are worried about, would you say? Because I think they can, I think people can add some animal products back and still be healthy. But what other than B12, what nutrient would you say that people can only get if they eat animal products?

Melanie Avalon

Well, so the only one that they can quote, I guess only only get would be, like you said, be 12, but then people can have like spirulina.

Matthew Lederman

But just to clarify, B12 comes from bacteria. And the animals get the bacteria and make the B12. And then they accumulate the B12. So animal products are basically like a supplement. It's not like the animals make the B12 either. So to me, I just wanted to add this in about the B12, that it's made by bacteria. And then we can either get that from a supplement that stores this B12, or we could get it from an animal product that stores B12. Or we could, I guess, potentially stop eating really, really clean food and maybe get some B12 that way. Just to clarify, because when I said B12, I just wanted to make it clear that for anyone listening that I'm not saying that they can only get that from animal products or that animal products are producing it.

Melanie Avalon

Right and kind of kind of the same way like meat from animals they ate grass and turn it into meat so similar concept actually.

Matthew Lederman

Right. I just want to make sure vegans don't hear this and say, oh, I could eat lettuce and I'll get my B12. If you're vegan, they're going to get into trouble without a B12 supplement. So just to be careful that, yes, if you're eating animal products, sometimes they even need to supplement B12. Even eating animal products isn't enough for some people. But yeah, you definitely need to supplement B12. You can't get that. Even if you don't wash your lettuce, it's not enough.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'll do a shout out for my spirulina because it's super high in B12 and it is vegan. So there is a solution for people.

Matthew Lederman

Who don't want to eat animals or take pills, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

The other nutrients I'd be thinking, I think there's quite a few nutrients that are just easier for people to get and assimilate in the plant-based form. So EPA, DHA, so with their omega-3s, getting them in the plant that like from fish compared to converting it from ALA and plants, some people genetically might not have the best conversion there. And then with a lot of fat, soluble vitamins are easier to get in from animal products. Creatine from animal products and protein, I think if you are going and getting just direct animal meat, like lean protein, you're getting those amino acids in a form that I think will be a lot better for stimulating. I know it's ironic because we're talking about anti-aging and reducing protein for reducing IGF-1 and reducing mTOR and increasing AMPK for longevity. But when you're intentionally in the growth state and wanting to support muscle mass and support building your body, I think a lot of people can assimilate and get that better from animal-based protein, easier for them. And a lot of it depends on your gut microbiome, like how good they are at what they do with plants or not.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I mean, people can stay if your goal is to stimulate growth, it's a different goal than if your goal is health. And I think at that point, like you're saying, maybe you want to do if you manipulate the diet, when taking isolated protein powder is going to stimulate IGF one insulin like growth factor, which is going to stimulate growth, you know, getting hormones that are in your animal animal products is going to stimulate growth. So there's different ways we can stimulate growth. But I'm helping people, if you're trying to avoid cancer, stimulation of growth is something you want to avoid as well. So it's just a matter of balancing like, hey, what's your priority, and then helping people meet their needs around that party, because I don't want to come across like, I'm saying this is the right way to do it, and everything else is wrong, it's really important to check in with people, what they want, and what works for them. I just, I just also want to make sure I get people, even if it's another view, like there's some people say, oh, I'm getting older, I can't absorb animal products as well if they're from plants, or I can't absorb protein as well if it's from plants versus animals. That is not my experience. That's not what I see in the data. I know people will talk about creatine, even though that's naturally synthesized in the body from amino acids, arginine, glycine, and methionine, primarily in the liver, kidneys, pancreas. So it's not an essential nutrient. Now, if people for somehow take creatine and they say, wow, my life is amazing, and it's so much better. Like, that's great. I just want to make sure that people who feel great already don't say, oh my God, I need to eat animals, I need to eat creatine, and I need to get more protein, or I'm going to be hurting myself. I think that's what I worry about are the people that are feeling great that are then second guessing themselves. But if on the flip side, you're having a problem, or you somehow you do something and you feel better and it still feels safe enough, you knock yourself out. My worry with animal products is, hey, now it's cholesterol, no fiber, environmental contaminants that are in there that bioaccumulate as they eat up the food chain, and then just the effect of some of the animal products and the more acidic amino acids that tend to be from them with the sulfur-containing amino acids. So I tell people, if you feel better doing this, that's ultimately what you should trust your body. But if you're feeling great and you hear something and it makes you second-guess yourself, then I have a higher bar before I would switch anything.

Melanie Avalon

I so appreciate your communicating everything really clearly. I so appreciate your perspective. I love that you have this perspective, and I think it's really valuable that people hear all different sides of the coin. I really like the central tenet of listening to your body and finding what works for you and being smart about it and seeing what nutrients do you actually need. And we can go more into listening into your body. That's a good segue. But before that, I just have a few other thoughts. I am literally haunted by this protein aging question. Anytime I bring on anybody who remotely might have an idea about it, I ask them. So I've had a lot of people, I don't want to make it like camps, but I've had people with similar viewpoints to you that I've interviewed, so like Dr. Michael Gregor, Neil Bernard, and Walter Longo. And I'm always asking them this question about the trade-off with a high-protein diet and IGF-1, mTOR, aging, and then also this question which you referenced. And I'm curious. It does seem to be pretty accepted that after the age of 60, that people do need to increase their protein intake. But you're saying you've seen some people that don't need to increase as they get older?

Matthew Lederman

Do you see a question you're saying it to people over the age of 60?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think that's the cutoff that they give usually for when people need to increase their protein intake.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I don't I don't see that if if somebody I if people are meeting their caloric needs With whole plant foods meaning they're not getting a lot of processed foods I don't I don't know of a Disease some people will say oh their muscles are wasting and they're they start losing muscle mass They lose muscle mass because they're not active because they're not well There's there's some changes that happen just as you age But as far as a majority of the the the damage it will be When they are not as active they're not doing the resistance. They're not doing flexibility training all of which Are required if you don't use it you lose it, but it's not because they're not eating animal products It's now maybe there's this one, you know, i'm not going to say never But I don't think the majority of people as they get older 60 All of a sudden need to either eat animal products or somehow start supplementing protein powders or they need to Push the caloric intake beyond what they feel satisfied with because that's essentially what I would imagine what happened If you're saying that they're not you or experts are saying That when you hit 60 you need more protein Then to me what they're basically saying is don't listen to your hunger signals Even though you're you're good at you need more than that And or you need to start taking some A non-whole food some type of isolated protein powder Or you need to change the concentration of the protein. So instead of eating, you know You gotta gotta pack in all of these beans, let's say and I don't think any of those Are needed or make people healthier, but I do believe there's problems with people as they get older with not being active Not doing the flexibility training not or not doing it correctly or both And have not getting in the sun or getting the vitamin d so there's there's other issues But I would I would put my focus a little bit differently

Melanie Avalon

I agree completely that it could be causation correlation with people getting older and not getting the stimulus they need to, you know, maintain, definitely not grow, but at least maintain that muscle. The other thought would be, I can also see the issues that you mentioned with animal products like contaminants and things like that. I feel like that goes across the board though, like you could have, you know, pesticides and issues and plant-based foods. And then on the flip side, you could choose. So I pretty much just eat, you know, responsibly raised, toxin free for fish. I only eat low mercury fish because I'm very much concerned about heavy metals. So I think that can be navigated and then the cholesterol thing, I feel like that is more

Matthew Lederman

Could I speak to the environmental contaminant thing? Yeah. So the problem with anopox is that there's bioaccumulation. So things like dioxins and PBDEs, and also they accumulate and break down just based on their half-lives. So you can't eliminate them. They can be passed to the baby through the placenta and the milk, but essentially, you have to just wait for it to break down. When an animal, so let's say there's a grain that has so many parts per million of an environmental contaminant, and you eat that grain directly, versus if you eat an animal that had to eat 10 times or 20 times the amount of grain to get to be the big animal, you're basically eating 20 times in a serving of animal products. You're eating 20 times the amount of that environmental contaminant than you would if you just ate the grain directly. So again, I'm not saying people have to eat grains, but if they look up how biomagnification works, that's the problem with animal products. And eating even organic animal products, it's getting passed down from the mom to the kid. And it's just something that it's hard to avoid. And I wish there was a way where that wasn't an issue, but I have not seen any example where you don't have to worry about environmental contaminant, the biomagnification issue.

Melanie Avalon

So there are like measurable levels of these if you find the best of the best sources with organic pasture raised animal products.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, that doesn't it doesn't matter. And you can look I mean, we'll have to talk offline afterwards. I can show you there's even graphs where they look at this and they know. I mean, milk was one of the biggest as far as dioxin contamination, like it's just because it gets passed down for the mom into the milk. So keep every time it's getting more and more concentrated. So it's just it's just hard to avoid. And that's why you want to eat as low on the food chain as possible, or at least have as much calories as you can tolerate as low on the food chain. Like I said, I'm not against people eating animal products. I just want them to know about all this so they can decide, hey, which one is it worth it? And when is it not?

Melanie Avalon

I'm very concerned with the environmental toxins and especially in the seafood. So hard to get clean, yeah. I had mercury toxicity in the past and that was just from fish and after that I became so aware of it and I think people don't realize, they don't realize that if you have a piece of fish high up on the food chain on your plate, you can't see these toxins. So you can't see just how much can be in there and you don't realize that, oh, if I have a piece of swordfish that could have hundreds of the amount of mercury of like a piece of tilapia that's way lower on the food chain. Like if you look at the charts, it actually can be that much of a difference and that's just mercury. So yeah, it's upsetting.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's really tough, and it just makes the higher up on the food chain these toxins multiply. So the same way smaller fish to bigger fish is the same thing when you're eating a plant to an animal that's eating the plants. So the higher up you eat, it's a cow eats thousands of pounds of contaminated grain and grass over its lifetime, concentrating the pesticides and heavy metals in its meat and its milk. Just like you said, tuna, it eats hundreds of smaller fish that are all filled with mercury, making its flesh one of the most contaminated foods. So you can either choose to eat the small fish, which are going to have less, which unfortunately our oceans are so polluted, even the small fish have it, but at least it's not being concentrated when you eat the fish higher up. So basically plants don't store up the toxins in the same way. So eating the lower on the food chain, the fruit, vegetables, grains, legumes means fewer contaminants. And it's all because there being the pollution from the environment getting into all this stuff. So it's not the animals or the plant's fault. It's just what we have to deal with now.

Melanie Avalon

Could this be mitigated in part, since toxins are preferentially stored in fat, what if people ate very, very lean, you know, organically raised, free-range meat, like very lean, like bison and chicken breast? That might, I feel like that would eliminate a lot of the exposure to the toxins.

Matthew Lederman

Yes, even if someone eats lean, organic, free-range meat, they still accumulate more toxins than someone eating plant-based. It's organic, free-range animal, still eat plants, grains, or smaller animals that have been exposed to the environmental toxins. So that's the challenge, is if whatever they're eating has toxin, then they're going to accumulate it. And since they don't break down very easily, they build up in the animal's body over time, even if the feed is organic. So even lean meat still contains the toxins, but many toxins like dioxins and PCBs store in fat, but they also bind to muscle tissue. So even lean meat is not free from contamination. Mercury in fish is found directly in the muscle tissue, meaning that choosing lean fish doesn't reduce exposure. Poultry containing arsenic used historically in chicken feed, organic standards don't fully protect against environmental contamination. So you just can't get away from it if you're eating things that eat other things. You're just, you're going to be exposed to it, but you can at least minimize by not eating things that eat other things that eat other things. So the little fish still eat the algae that's contaminated. So the little fish are still accumulating, but then the big fish that eat the little fish are accumulating even more, because they already have a level of concentration just from the smaller fish when they eat the algae. So does that make sense? Like the free range organic meat is better. At least it'll have fewer antibiotics and pesticide residues than factory farm meat, but it still concentrates environmental toxins and it doesn't protect against bio magnification, which is just a natural process that happens in the food chain.

Melanie Avalon

It does. I would like to look into this more and look at samplings. I'm curious what this practically looks like, because I understand what you're saying, that it's still in there if we choose the best of the best. I would like to just actually see the numbers of what that practically looks like, just because I don't have that much.

Matthew Lederman

That's a good exercise because then you can make an informed decision about how much you want to eat I mean, we're all getting chemicals. We're all getting stuff from our mind. That's why we want to optimize our immune system It's it's gonna be taking hits every every day from all different, you know from the air we breathe the water we drink So you just try to minimize the hits and you decide what's worth it and certain meals certain dishes certain types of food Really bring a lot of joy and pleasure to people So it's more a matter of understanding all this stuff and then making an informed decision about what works for you

Melanie Avalon

And just for the cholesterol piece, I wouldn't be concerned about dietary cholesterol and animal products raising cholesterol. I would be more for me the saturated fat, which you could get from plants as well.

Matthew Lederman

this is this is a common thing that people say and it's I've learned over the years to not spend a lot of energy trying to convince people like like I'm just like if that's the belief that they feel good about then that's great my read of the data and my read of working with patients that it's they can get saturated fat from eating whole coconut and it will not affect their cholesterol the way it will if they get eating animal products and at a certain point you can keep eating more animal products and it doesn't you know we we saturate pretty quickly as far as the amount of cholesterol that any more than that doesn't matter you know you have it's like saying if you're smoking one pack of cigarettes and then you add a second pack well you've done so much damage from the first pack that adding the second pack it might make things a little worse but you know so so if you so you could do a study that says let's take them from two packs of cigarettes down the one pack of cigarettes and there's not much a difference so therefore cigarettes have no effect on health when in fact if you went from two packs of cigarettes to no cigarettes you would see a big difference so I think you got to look at the studies and when you remove dietary cholesterol it's it's clearly a problem but at the same time there's so much so much of the dietary cholesterol comes with saturated fat too so I think they both have their issues but I really don't like in the end I don't like talking about individual macronutrients when we're trying to direct people's health because nobody sits and eats a bowl of cholesterol or eats a bowl of saturated fat and all these foods have all the different I mean bananas have saturated fat in them so it's not like you're gonna pick one type of the other it's it's to me what foods are health promoting and what or not and which foods feel good when you eat them and what foods don't and you put all that together and find a diet that works for you but I don't I've stopped over the years arguing I just want to make sure people hear that maybe there's more than one opinion out there and if they think if they will feel strongly that cholesterol dietary cholesterol doesn't make their cholesterol grow up great and you know they can do an experiment eat one diet and then try to try a couple of weeks without dietary cholesterol and check your blood cholesterol again and do it in yourself but be really you know strict about it so you get a good study and what I imagine is that people who all they do if all they do is change the dietary cholesterol which again I like is hard you can't just eat a bowl of cholesterol my guess is they're going to see a difference if they go from down to zero cholesterol for a couple of weeks just to test it out so do your own little study

Melanie Avalon

So appropriately enough, I've done almost that. But first I just wanted to comment really quickly. I am the same way. I literally have zero interest in convincing anybody of anything, like zero interest. I just wanna explore and hear different opinions and people make your own decisions. So we're on the same page there. It's interesting for me, because so I have done, I'm really intense with what I eat. Like I pretty much eat, I eat very strict whole foods based diet and it's really just a few similar foods, no additives, meat, fruit, cucumbers, things like that. But point being is what I currently am eating and have eaten for a long time, it's very high animal protein, but it's high lean animal protein and it's tons of fruit. When I do that approach, I have very low cholesterol. So LDL will be in the 40s, total cholesterol hovers around 100. When I make a change, and the only change I make is I get rid of the fruit and I add in lots of like coconut oil or MCT oil, all my cholesterol levels like shoot up, which has been really, really interesting to see.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, oil will definitely get cholesterol, even oils that have more, if you go from an oil that, whether it's high saturated fat oil or high monounsaturated fat oil, you add a ton of oil to someone who's not having oil, their cholesterol is going to go up.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so and that's like a plant-based saturated fat, but for me it makes my cholesterol like go really high.

Matthew Lederman

All right. I'm saying is if you're going to test in yourself, test it with a whole food. If you add an oil, I don't care what kind of oil it is, it's going to cause problems. But if you, I would say eat like whole coconut.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, which I don't like, interestingly, like I love all foods and I don't know why.

Matthew Lederman

But I would say do the study with whole foods. So do a study with its high saturated fat that's a whole food, not even coconut milk. Do the whole coconut with the fiber and all the other stuff that comes with it. And compare that to an animal product that's high in dietary cholesterol. And then compare that to a diet that's whole food plant-based without concentrated saturated fat or concentrated cholesterol. And do that experiment for a couple of weeks. Do a before and after. Everything else controlled, if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon

controlled dietary studies are, like you said, so difficult because you can't really isolate one nutrient. No, well, okay, that was fun. So now, it's funny, we get a lot of feedback from listeners and they're always like, I'm so confused because, you know, I hear this one thing and then I hear another and I agree that it can be really confusing, but I like to see it all as benefit. Like it's more information of things that can potentially make you feel better. So do your labs and see how you feel. It sounds like, though, we do have a few overlying, you know, things we believe, which is whole foods based, removing these processed foods, you know, focusing on minimizing the environmental toxins as much as we can.

Matthew Lederman

as low on the food chain as you can, eat as much whole food as you can, which includes not having added oils and added sugars. So whole food is close to its original form as possible. And then, I mean, I don't know where you stand, but I think if you're going to eat animal products, make them count. But again, I don't know where you are on that as far as like, how much do you really need. And then, most importantly, check in with your body. Eat these whole plant foods, add whole animal foods if that's important to you, and then check in with your body. And then, if you're going to do an experiment, really isolate the variable. So if you want to see how you feel with animal products versus, or more versus less, or oil versus no oil, make sure everything else is the same for that two-week period so you can really isolate the variable.

Melanie Avalon

So actually, going to the make it count part, we kind of do overlap indirectly. It's kind of a weavy path to get there, but you were talking about the for the anti-aging benefits, you know, not having this abundance of protein. And it's ironic because on this show, we talked about the importance of protein, or a lot of people eat like a moderate to high protein diet. But by pairing it with fasting, it's actually getting to the same end result where you're not constantly stimulating your body with with mTOR. And I think you can still get the anti-aging benefits. So you're making the protein count by having it in this concentrated eating window. And interestingly, I hadn't thought about this yet, the implications of this, but so I do Matt, I eat a very high protein diet, it's, it's very high protein, but it's in an intermittent fasted pattern every day. So I fast every single day and I just do one meal a day in the evening. And I recently got back and like I said, I'm haunted by this longevity question with this. And I recently interviewed Dr. Matt Dawson, he is the founder of True Diagnostic, which provides an epigenetic age test and they have three of them ones in partnership with Yale ones with Harvard and ones with Duke, I think. They're all epigenetic, they all look at different markers for aging. And he told me in real time when I interviewed him that my results were some of the best he's ever seen with epigenetics showing that I'm aging slowly. So that was really validating to know that I can still have a high protein diet, but by having it in an intermittent fasting and you feel good and feel good, yeah.

Matthew Lederman

You said you feel good. You have you eat one meal a day, you said.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, but it's over a few hours in the evening and it's a lot of fruit, a lot of lean animal protein. Do you publicly share your age? Sorry, there's a funny story there. I wasn't and then CNBC wanted to do an article, like a profile piece on me and they asked if she asked me last minute, she was like, is it okay if we include your age? And I was like, I haven't put that out there publicly. And my background's in acting, which is where you don't say your age and all this stuff. And I was like, so I'd rather not, but if you think it'll benefit the story, I understand. And then she published it and she made it the title, like the title was my age. And so I was like, okay, I guess it's out there. So that's when I was 32. So I'm, oh gosh, I don't even know how old I am, I'm 33.

Matthew Lederman

So, so you're been doing this for a while, you feel really good. You're, you're getting the calories you need. It's not like you're walking around hungry. And I think that's what's most important. Now, we all are trying to do our best to guess what's going to be good for, you know, what do we do now that's going to help us 20 years from now, essentially, or 30 years from now. And it's really tough to know for sure. I mean, you can look at other culture, other populations, and what they ate. That doesn't mean that's what's best. We're just making our best guesses here. And a lot of these studies, they look back and they'll follow people for, for populations for a while, but they don't do this, like, randomized, well, we have this population following this and this, because it's just so hard to do it's so hard to control. So I think the most important thing is that you feel good about what you're doing, you feel good about, you know, you're not stressing out about it. And you're minimizing the stuff that we all clearly agree is crap, all of the processed Twinkies and the cookies and the added sugars. And I don't know what you feel about oil, but I think of added oil, the same as added sugar, that it's an isolated, extracted macronutrient, devoid of all of the things that are naturally in the food. So I don't know if a significant portion of your diet is coming from anything like that, and you don't have to answer, but that's what I'm telling people. I think the most important thing is how you feel. And it sounds like you feel great.

Melanie Avalon

I do. And it was really nice to see that like epigenetically in real time picture of how I'm aging. I'm on the same page as you with oil. So I think I really don't see the reason to add these refined processed oils to things. The only exception is I can see, I mean, there's a lot of really interesting data on olive oil. So I could see if you're having like a little bit of that, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't douse the food in it. I think I don't add oil to my food.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I mean, to me, it's again, it's like if you don't need to, then don't. And if you're going to use it, there's like the good better best to me, the good is minimum, you know, you a little bit, the better would be like, maybe you're almost like putting it in a spray bottle and just in. And to me, the best is eat, you know, eat an olive or something, that's the whole food version of it, you know, eat the avocado instead of the avocado oil. So it's not a low fat or fat free diet, it's just a low extracted fat diet.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, oftentimes people will be doing like keto or low carb and say they're not losing weight. And one of the suggestions I'll make is you don't need to add all this fat, like you don't need to be adding all this fat. You can just eat food, like in its real form.

Matthew Lederman

Exactly. See, so we're on the same page there, I think. And there's just, if you're feeling great, that's the bottom line here. Now, what are the challenges, though, when I was in my early 20s? I mean, you could eat anything and feel fine when you're really young. But as you start to get older, your body can't handle that anymore. So, and actually, kids will say they feel better when they clean up their diet. And, and that's, like I said, you do not need to be vegan, but feel great and be healthy. But I think getting rid of the processed foods, everybody would agree with.

Melanie Avalon

I think so. So segue, we keep talking about how there's so much more to it than just diet in your book, like I said, in your books. But most recently, the one I read, which was Wellness to Wonderful, you go on all these other pillars of, like I said, emotional health and mental and social and all of these things. And you have this We Be Calm product, which is incredible. So what role does that play in all of this health picture?

Matthew Lederman

Actually, before we go on, I just want to make sure I realize I didn't answer your question on intermittent fasting. And I just want to say that, again, it's what helps you feel really good. I think it's very important. Fasting in general, I think, is really good for the body. And I think giving your body downtime to do its repair and restoration is really important where it's not trying to metabolize calories. And I personally, for whatever reason, just naturally gravitated a long time ago where I wouldn't eat. I never felt good eating breakfast. So I would eat my first meal, 11.30. I eat my dinner around 5.30. And that's all I eat. So I think I'm naturally doing some long periods of fasting every day. And then getting low. I think we overall eat too many calories. So that's what I like about low calorie density diets. Whole food plant-based diets are naturally low calorie. And oil is the most calorically dense. So someone who's trying to decrease their caloric intake and fast or intermittently or it's adding oil would be the last thing I'd want to do. It's like 4,000 calories per pound. So that's just another plug for trying to get rid of processed or refined oils. But yes, I think giving yourself time is a really good thing. But there's some people that if they feel better, if they eat three meals a day or they sort of snack throughout the day. And I think that's, again, a personal experiment. If you really have terrible cravings, or you're struggling, or your energy is different, and you feel better eating three meals or snacking during the day, I think the bottom line is trust your body, especially if you're doing that with healthy whole foods. But if you're snacking and eating Lucky Charms for breakfast and snacking all day. And well, then I think we have other things to talk about. So bottom line, yes, I think intermittent fasting is great. But I don't think someone who's feeling good and healthy and loving life needs to force themselves to intermittent fast if they're doing really well, unless they want to play around with it and see how they feel. So that makes sense. I don't think the data is so clear that we have to tell people, if you're not doing it, you are in serious trouble. But it might be something that's worth exploring.

Melanie Avalon

I agree completely makes sense and it might come as a surprise to people since I have a show called the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, but I feel the same way that I think it's a tool that works really, really well for a lot of people and it can be a major game changer and some people in the end, it's just not the thing for them. I definitely don't think everybody needs to be doing it, but I do think it can benefit a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely.

Matthew Lederman

And I say try it too, like you have nothing to lose. What's the worst thing? You skip breakfast and see what happens. Like I love that trying and that's how I do everything. I just experiment on myself. I see how I feel. What do I like? What do I not like? And I wish more people, in fact, that could segue into this other stuff. To me, that's one of the biggest things that I have to help people with is connecting to their own bodies and using their internal value system and their internal felt experience to direct what works and what doesn't work. Instead of looking outside and having these external markers of success and health and then trying to live up to those. So it's really retuning our ability to check back in with our body and let their inner wisdom guide them.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, I love this so much. And so practically, what does that look like? And a lot of what you do, and I'm so grateful, I love that you are, you know, creating this education, spreading this awareness, products, books, all the things for people, but you also have or and you also have a big focus on raising the next generation. So, you know, instilling this mindset and helping, you know, being a parent and helping kids. There's so many ways we could go with this, I guess I'll just start with a fairly basic question. When did you launch your we become product?

Matthew Lederman

we become, I love this tool, it was we created it to help people learn how to regulate their nervous system. And we did we count with this idea of probably four or five years ago, I've been thinking about it for a long time. But over the last five years, we started figuring out how to design it and make it work and then put it together and market it. And, and the reason this is so important is that regulating your nervous system has and which basically means turning on the parasympathetics and telling the sympathetic they can take a break. So parasympathetics are natural calming, that's how we can turn on rest and digest and reproduce functions. The sympathetic or your fight flight frees faint when there's a danger or threat. And we don't want to have those on unless you really need them on. And many people struggle to turn on their Paris or to yeah, turn on the parasympathetics and sort of put a brake on the sympathetic. And breathing particularly slow, along the exhalation is one of the best ways to turn on the parasympathetics. And that's when we let's create a device that you can only exhale through slowly, it's not comfortable to try and blow out fast, along with an indicator that holds a ball loft, as long as you're exhaling, so you can try and keep that ball loft for 10 seconds. So then we said, there's a little bit of white noise that comes out for auditory regulation. So you have three different pathways that stimulate parasympathetics, you have the slow exhalation with the tube, you have the feedback device where you have focused attention on the ball, and that's, it's triggered similar pathways as to all the mindfulness practices. Then you have the white noise that comes out the back, the auditory regulation feedback. And you put all those together and you're activating three different parasympathetic, three different pathways to turn on the parasympathetics. And I tell people put that by your nightstand and do five breaths, five exhalations, five repetitions before bed, you can do another set of five if you want, and do it every night. And the key is doing it every night for months. And after that, you start to build this muscle memory, these neural pathways, neural networks that are created that are basically linked from your breath to turning on calm. And then at any point during the day, you can say, Oh, I'm just going to take a weeby breath. And you do that exhalation and your body now trained by this tool that's giving you feedback of what a correct breath, correct weeby breath is. Then if you take that same breath at any time during the day, you now have this strong neural pathway that can immediately turn on calm. That's been super exciting because it works really well for kids and adults. And you can, and you just have to do it before bed every night and you'll see some amazing results.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I love this so much because there's so much stress in our world and there's a lot of different ways that you can approach it. So, you know, bottom up versus top down and so things like meditation and doing, you know, mental exercises and therapy can be really helpful. And at the same time, you can use devices like this where you can literally, like you said, instantly turn on this parasympathetic state. So well, first of all, demographics wise, so is it mostly kids using it or are you saying for like us adults and parents and such and people in general to use it as well?

Matthew Lederman

Oh, everybody, it's marketed towards children because that was the easiest demographic to target. But my kids and I use it before bed every night. And it's really amazing. My daughter, who's 11, called me from school, hysterically crying. I couldn't even understand her. And I said to her, hey, I'm hearing something's really upsetting you, and I can't understand you. Can you take a weebie breath, and then maybe we'll be able to understand you better? And she immediately, just from even asking her to take the weebie breath, she was able to sort of, I could hear it start to come down a little. And then she stopped, she did the breath, and she was like, ah, so dead. And it was like a switch. And you can't do that if you don't have the training. It's almost like trying to tell somebody to bench some weight, bench press some weight, when they need the strength versus months and months of training, and then they need the strength, and they can do it easily. The key is, even though you know how to breathe, you want to train and give your body that feedback so that you're doing it exactly the way that stimulates the parasympathetics, and that it's a practice. And when you see that tool, the weebie calm device on your nightstand, it takes 30 seconds, 40 seconds, and to do five repetitions, probably actually, if I'm being honest, probably 60 seconds. It takes a minute, but it's still worth it. And you do that every night. It's so amazing. I tell people, just do an experiment. Do it for a couple of months, and then randomly try to take weebie breaths throughout the day, and notice that felt sense in your body.

Melanie Avalon

It's so amazing that like it's a practice, but you don't have to have the cognition to make it work. Like it's going to work if you do it. It's a physical thing that you do, and then it's going to have that effect. And then I love this fact that the brain will then anticipate and the benefits will only grow from there.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's a real, a real strong association by doing every night, you make these all these associations and this neural network just fires and it's like going down a slide and you just slide down the slide at that point because you've created this beautiful neural network.

Melanie Avalon

It's kind of like how even with things like dopamine, we know that when you have an addiction or a habit or something that you do all the time, you actually release those feel good feelings before you even do it. Like once you get into the habit of doing it, it's the thought of it that actually, you know, releases these feel good compounds. So it sounds like the we become can become not that it's like an addiction, but it can become entrained where it immediately will signify to your body these the state to go into.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's a really beautiful thing to watch.

Melanie Avalon

so amazing. And I love that it's so like portable and affordable. Literally, it's like the perfect gift to give to everybody. My mom before, like I said, I gave one to her, because before she'd been using a straw, breathing through a straw. And this makes it so much easier to, like you said, it's multiple thing, it's three different things, not just the breathing. And then you like know what to do, you're not having to like come up with the paradigm that you're fitting into it actually with the thing, like it makes it like easy to follow like step.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, yeah, when you see the ball and you know you're getting the ball off, that's as hard as you have to blow. And then you exhale until you don't have to anymore, at least the 10 seconds. And it gives you this, it's this form, it's a container around the breath that otherwise it's hard to know exactly if you're doing it correctly, especially for kids, but even for adults. So by using this device, it sort of holds the breath the way you need to do it so that you know you're doing it correctly. And then you just do it every night, 60 seconds. If you want to do another set, it's two minutes. It's not a big investment to be able to have calming at your fingertips.

Melanie Avalon

That's incredible. Can you, this is random. Can you use it for things like cravings or people are experiencing like any sort of feeling that they're experiencing where they want to come back to a state of presence? Like what are other things people could use it for?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, you can use it any time your body is dysregulated and you want some regulation. Some people with cravings, they are feeling stressed, they are feeling their nervous system is mobilized and chewing and swallowing is one way to trigger the vagus nerve that turns on the parasympathetics. So it makes sense that people like chewing, swallowing, sucking to calm themselves. That's how kids do it. They suck on and pacifiers. So it's not wrong, but it gets in the way of your health when you use food and swallowing and sucking, especially when you're stressed out, you tend to want high calorie density foods. So it's going to get in the way of your health if that's your go-to calming mechanism. So instead, try and calm other ways. And then on top of that, we ask people to connect to what's going on inside. What's going on with their feelings and needs now shifts into nonviolent communication. But what's going on with their feelings and needs that's causing them to mobilize in the first place? And is there something a request we can make of ourselves or other people that can better meet our needs so that we regulate, again, getting out of that fight or flight mode? So it all starts to come together.

Melanie Avalon

That's a whole nother topic that I love that you talk about, which was the nonviolent communication. I was so fascinated by it, reading your book and listening to your podcast, this idea of needs and wants and requests, and there's so much there. It's a whole nother world. But you talk about it a lot on your podcast, the We Be Parents podcast, so people can check that out in your books.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, the podcast is, the contest is fun because we, it's all focused on bringing connection and that sense of safety, which is really important for kids, their physiology, helping to regulate kids and connect with them. We call it collaborative non-permissive parenting that we teach. And it's all, that's what the podcast is all about, how to bring that into the household. And it's not that, I mean, I'm getting it, getting it right, you know, quote unquote, right, about 50% of the time. And then I know how to clean up the messes that I make. So it's, I mean, it's tough being parents and it's, it's just about doing the best you can and trying to bring these skills into the household, not only for your own wellbeing, but it really contributes to the kids and what the kids learn and bring into their adulthood.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was fascinated by this whole approach and there's this idea where you're not forcing kids to do things that they quote, don't want to do, which is a really, at surface level, it's like, oh, well, then kids aren't going to do anything. But once you get a bigger understanding that, you know, everything is driven by wants and needs and what's being met and you can talk to your kids and come to a place with the goal in mind, usually where you can accomplish said goal that is needed by the by everybody. Once you talk through what people actually want and need, and I'm using a lot of words, but it's really, really interesting. And it was a paradigm shift for me for at least what I see of parenting and how parenting is typically done.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I think that's very well said and it's you have to shift your paradigm. If you believe that kids are inherently bad and you need to force them and mold them to be good, this isn't going to make sense. But if you believe, as I do, that kids naturally want to contribute to the well-being of others just like adults do, but sometimes they're not connected to that or their own needs. There's other needs of theirs that are preventing them from doing that. So when a kid says no, instead of trying to force them to do what you want anyway, try and care about what needs of theirs are preventing them from saying yes. And that's the beginning of the connection. And then you can collaborate and say, hey, how can we care about that need of yours that's making you want to say no, while also caring about my need, which is behind me asking you to do this thing that you're saying no to. Can we both care about all that together?

Melanie Avalon

I love it so much. It's really definitely a paradigm shift and it's really powerful.

Matthew Lederman

It is. It is. And for some people, they really like the authoritarian parenting style. And like I said, I'm not here to tell everybody what's right or wrong. This is just making life a lot more wonderful for us and a lot of the people we work with. So that's why we do it.

Melanie Avalon

Listeners, I cannot recommend enough getting a Webby device for you, for the people in your life, for your kids. Honestly, this is another little hack I do in my life. I like to stock up on Christmas presents throughout the year for people. So then come Christmas time, I already have all my shopping done. Literally, it is such a game changer. So just stock up on these and you can give them as Christmas presents to so many people. So Matt and the team are so kind. They have a discount for you guys, you can get 25% off. Just go to ifpodcast.com slash Webby, that's W-E-B-E. So ifpodcast.com slash Webby, W-E-B-E. And when you go there, it will bring you to the main page. There's a pop up to get on the email list and that will get you a 25% discount on the product. There's also a little button in the corner that says save 25%. So you can click that as well. So definitely check that out. That will be at ifpodcast.com slash Webby, W-E-B-E. All right. Well, thank you, Matt. I really, really enjoyed that conversation. It was exciting. It was nice because I think in our two prior episodes on the other show, we did more focus on stuff that we got into at the end. So if people were interested in that, definitely check out those other episodes. I really enjoyed talking about the diet stuff with you. That was super fun. And I really appreciate your perspective. The central tenets that you think are important, I really love that you understand that different things work for different people. And I think this conversation will be really valuable for people and exposing them to different paradigms and ideas and helping them really find what works best for them. So thank you for what you're doing.

Matthew Lederman

I appreciate it and I really hope people listening because way back when I remember listening to different shows and I would think that person doesn't agree, I don't, yeah, I would just stop listening. And I think it's really helpful to listen to everything and then just pick what works for you and make that your program versus, you know, you have to agree with somebody 100% or, you know, if they don't agree, you know, throw them away. And maybe there's, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe there's some things you like and other things you don't like. So I really invite the audience and in general, I invite my audiences when I'm talking to just pick what works for you. You know, here's my opinion, you know, Melanie, you have your opinion, but you've ultimately figured out what works for you and that's why you have this opinion. But it's different than probably all the experts that you've talked to. There's some differences in what you do compared to each of those experts. And I think that's the way to be successful.

Melanie Avalon

I agree so much. I actually actively, one of the podcasts I listen to is Rich Roll, he's very vegan. And it's because I actively want to make sure I listen to perspectives that are very different from what I actually eat or overlap, like we talked about as well. Yeah, find what works for you, leave what doesn't work for you. Yeah, this has been amazing. So again, listeners, go to ifodcast.com slash weebie and click that little button in the bottom right hand corner to get 25% off. And yeah, this has been super, super awesome. So thanks, Matt, we'll have to have you on again in the future. There's just so much more we could talk about. So thank you for everything that you're doing. Oh, and oh, by the way, can you give links for people? So how can people follow you? Listen to your podcast, all the things

Matthew Lederman

Yes. So people can find us. Our website is connectiondocs.com. And the calming device and the breathing device is through webeecom.com with a K. W-E-B-E, Caleb.com. And our podcast is webeeparents.com. And then our book Wellness to Wonderful is on Amazon. And you can follow webeecom.com on Instagram and Facebook as well.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. So we will put all of that in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for the conversation and everything that you're doing. And yeah, we'll have to talk again in the future. This was really great.

Matthew Lederman

That's great. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon

Thanks, Matt. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. you

Mar 24

Episode 414 – TruDiagnostic, Stubborn Weight Loss, Fasting Releasing Toxins, Epigenetic Testing & Biological Age, Animal Vs Plant Protein, Toxins In Animal Fat, Protein & Aging, and More!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

Welcome to Episode 414 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 414 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iofpodcast.com or by going to iofpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 414 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today? And also, how do you feel about palindromes?

Barry Conrad

Hey, everyone. How's it going? I feel great today. And, Melanie, I don't know how I feel about that. I was not expecting you to even ask me that. How do you feel about it?

Melanie Avalon

414 is a palindrome. 414, like palindromes are where there's like mom, like M-O-M, like where it can be read.

Barry Conrad

Yes. Okay. Yeah. I get you. I get you. I feel, I feel pretty good about that. I feel excited, frisky, awesome, stoked.

Melanie Avalon

Fairy contract feels frisky about palindromes.

Barry Conrad

That's not a sound bite that we need to use, but I feel good. I think it's a good, it's a good number. I like the situation.

Melanie Avalon

I have a fun fact about palindromes. My grandfather, he was obsessed with palindromes to the extent that he wrote a book called Refer, which is a palindrome. And all this book is very, this book is just a list of every palindrome. Are you serious? Yeah, it's just lists of words and numbers.

Barry Conrad

I didn't even know or I'm not sure if I even knew that you had another author in your family.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think he self published it. I don't know. It's on my shelf. He was a character. Wait, should I grab the book? Hold on. Wait, let me go grab. Let me go grab it. Hold on.

Barry Conrad

This is a really interesting. I had no idea, listeners. So here we go.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so it's called refer and then the subtitle is what's not really, I guess it's a subtitle. The reference for writing palindromes because, you know, we need that. And then it's just lists. Okay, pick a page number.

Barry Conrad

24.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so we're in the S's. So the top one on top is actually, I don't know how this works. Oh, these aren't really palindromes on this page. These are words that spell one word one way and one word the other.

Barry Conrad

Okay, give me an example. So what?

Melanie Avalon

Well, the top one, I don't know if sprat is a word, sprat and then tarps. Ah, I get what you mean. Like, or like, okay. The one next to it is straw and warts, stressed and desserts, et cetera. Those aren't palindromes though. Pick another number.

Barry Conrad

Melanie Avalon

That's still in the same section pick a number like

Barry Conrad

Like higher.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah.

Barry Conrad

Okay.

Melanie Avalon

48. 48 is talking about palindromes. It says it is obvious that there are infinitely many numerical palindromes. Some palindromes are prime numbers, like 101, some are not prime, like 202, and then it just keeps going on.

Barry Conrad

You know what I'm gonna keep that in my mind now every time I see one I'm like It's a pelodrome. How do you feel about that and people be like, huh?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And then you can have this whole conversation with them as well. You can refer them to my grandfather's book refer.

Barry Conrad

That's hilarious. I might have to do that. Yes. Is this going to be in the show notes or what? Are you going to put this for people to, can people find it?

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if it's on Amazon. Let me find out. I hope so. I think I bought it on Amazon.

Barry Conrad

It's pretty cool that he's got this book.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, here it is. You can buy it on Amazon. That's so cute.

Barry Conrad

That is awesome.

Melanie Avalon

I will put a link to it in the show notes. I will put a link to that and to my new microphone, which is rainbows.

Barry Conrad

When, listen, is when I first heard that Melanie had this mic, I thought like, what is it shooting rainbows out of the mic? Is it a rainbow colored mic? Yeah. So can you tell us what it means? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

Well, have you seen any of my clips on social media where I normally I have like a red mic, it's like very red. So this is the same brand HyperX, but it lights up and it's lighting up with a rainbow that is changing, like changing colors, like rainbowy.

Barry Conrad

How does it make you feel?

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it feels wonderful, honestly, feels like World of Color. It's, I just can't decide if it's distracting or not. But it, okay, you know, when things like very calmly, like, like just oscillate and vibe, like it feels calming, it's that. But what color would you have Barry if you had, because you can program it to be any color. So what color would you have?

Barry Conrad

I would have to go with blue because blue is my favorite color and I feel super chill when I'm when I have blue around me just relaxed calm yeah serene so blues my color all the way.

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's interesting because, you know, blue is energy. What do you mean, energy? It's the wavelength of energy. So like the reason it's like the most high energy wavelength. That's why we have like blue light blocking glasses. That's why there are no blue fruits or plants. There are, did you know that? There are no plants that are actually blue. They're actually shades of purple if you think they're blue. Because blue, the plant absorbs all the blue because it's the energy. So it doesn't reflect it back.

Barry Conrad

I had no idea about this at all because what about flowers or like blue flowers or is that more of a purple? Is that what you're saying?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I don't. Okay. When I was reading about this, it was talking about fruits. I don't know about flowers.

Barry Conrad

Oh, actually, actually, what about blueberries?

Melanie Avalon

They're actually not like completely blue. They have some, they're actually technically, I think a shade of purple. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, there's no like a hundred. Basically there's not a fruit that just reflects back only blue because it wouldn't have energy.

Barry Conrad

It's amazing idea while mind blown, not pun intended with the other podcasts that we go, but it's true.

Melanie Avalon

So, so now that I've provided completely useless information, how are things in your life?

Barry Conrad

It's not useless. I'm very, I feel very educated right now after living by paladromes and- Paladromes and blue. Blue energy. Things are great. You know what, Melanie? I have something to share with you that is- goodness, excite you so much. And me.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.

Barry Conrad

So, you know how you've asked me this before, like, how did you when did you start fasting and what brought you to it? Like, how did you find it? Did you remember? I always was like online, online, which is true, but I didn't know the origin story until a couple of weeks ago. My second brother came over for some trinkets. We had some foods and wine and and I was venting to him. I said, you know, I'm so frustrated because I can't remember the exact moment. He goes, ah, well, I do. Like, remember, you said.

Melanie Avalon

Second brother to the rescue.

Barry Conrad

It was like Hugh Jackman, you know, you read an article when he was training for Wolverine and he said that he did intermittent fasting and you kept going on about it like, I'm going to try this thing Hugh Jackman does, 16A, intermittent fasting. That's the moment I was like, bingo.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Let's take a moment for Hugh Jackman right now. That's amazing.

Barry Conrad

I was so excited i was like finally someone had the missing puzzle piece so i finally can answer that now you jackman.

Melanie Avalon

So when he said that, did you like really remember the moment or was it, you had to reconstruct the memory based on like what he was telling you.

Barry Conrad

No i remember the moment when he said that i was like what do you mean i forgot this moment this is that's exactly but he was so chill is like he was like yeah of course it's when you remember the huge action. I dropped the glass that i was holding into the sink is like that's the moment we go.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. I feel like I vaguely remember that, not you and that, but like, I remember Hugh Jackman talking about intermittent fasting. Was it during like the X-Men time?

Barry Conrad

It was during the x-men time but also when you started preparing for the the solo films you know wolverine.

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. I wonder if he still does it. We should

Barry Conrad

We should ask him, Hugh Jackman, if you ever hear this, do you still do intermittent fasting? Did you do it for the Deadpool Wolverine movie or you kind of pass that now? Let us know.

Melanie Avalon

We would like to know, maybe, wait, have you ever met him?

Barry Conrad

He's one of my, I look up to that guy. I've never met him yet. I met his wife, his ex-wife, but not him. Not yet, yet, keyword.

Melanie Avalon

I'm putting it out there, you're doing a project with him. I'm just putting it out there, manifest that. You guys could do a musical together, a stage musical.

Barry Conrad

acts that actually could happen too because I think he's in New York right now doing a show.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like he probably feel like he's always doing something. He's very inspiring

Barry Conrad

Very inspiring. I love how he pivots between movie, like action movie to musical to Yeah, it's it's super inspiring as an actor for sure. Wow. But there you go, Melanie. That's it.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. Okay.

Barry Conrad

What about you? What's happening in your-

Melanie Avalon

world. I'm good. Okay, friends, actually exciting announcement. So if things are on track, which hopefully they will be this Friday, March 28, I should be launching my AvalonX EMF blocking product line with the EMF free headphones air tubes. That's so exciting. So hopefully, FutureUs is having this moment right now and hopefully it's launching. So go to AvalonXEMF.us on Friday. Actually, go there now because you can get on the email list to get updates for the products and the launch special and all the things. But basically, EMFs are classified by the IARC as a group to be carcinogen. And they are not good. They are linked to a lot of health conditions. And when you're putting AirPods in your head, did I say AirPods earlier? I meant air tubes. Oh, dear. When you put AirPods like Bluetooth ones in your head, you're literally just putting all that EMF signal right next to your brain, which is no bueno. So these are headphones that are free of EMF. They actually conduct and convert the sound into analog. So there's nothing digital about how the sound is transmitted to you. Yeah, they're going to come in rose gold and black. Which color would you get, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I would give black for sure.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, no, I was like, are you gonna do like a curve ball? No rose gold for you?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I don't have anything of rose gold yet, but you know, I'm open to it if I can yeah, maybe I should change

Melanie Avalon

Maybe that's your new color palette.

Barry Conrad

along with some paludromes and some, some blue energy.

Melanie Avalon

calendrobes and blue. So yeah. So again, to listeners, Avalon XEMF.us.

Barry Conrad

Super exciting!

Melanie Avalon

I know. Shall we jump into fasting stuff? Let's do it. So I'm the one who brought a study today to talk about. I actually prepped this berry because you weren't there. But next week, episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman. He is a really awesome human being. So did you ever watch the Forks Over Knives documentary?

Barry Conrad

I don't think I have seen that. No, tell me about it.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, it's probably like it may be one of the most well-known vegan documentaries. It's very like plant. It's all about like Whole Foods plant-based diet. So he was in that. He co-authored the New York Times bestselling book, The Forks Over Knives Plan or something. It's the book that's about the plan for it. And he actually worked at Whole Foods, wait, they have Whole Foods in Australia, right?

Barry Conrad

We actually don't we have a we haven't stopped we don't we don't that's another moment we have a harris farm which is kind of like if you look at paris farm it's kind of like whole foods the same kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon

Wait a minute. How have we known each other for all these years and I didn't know they don't have whole foods in Australia?

Barry Conrad

They don't? We don't have it here. I know.

Melanie Avalon

I know. But you've been to Whole Foods, right? Like in the US? Yep. And are you like, wow, we need this in Australia.

Barry Conrad

We do need it. I mean, Harris Farms is similar, but not Whole Foods.

Melanie Avalon

It's a chain, Harris Farms. Maybe Whole Foods will acquire it, take over. Okay, I'm just trying to get over how sad I am that you don't have Whole Foods, but Harris Farms is probably, Harris Farm or farms? Are there one farm, two farms?

Barry Conrad

I think it's just like, that's just like the name like the, on the facade, like, you know, the signage Harris farm. It's called Harris farm markets. That's what it's called. Harris farm markets.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so one farm, multiple markets, Harris Farm markets. Okay. I think Whole Foods is technically Whole Foods market. I don't know. In any case, Dr. Letterman was the for like, a long time, like eight years or something, he was the vice president of medical medical affairs or some sort of he was some sort of medical director. And he basically was in charge of their medical program that they use for their employees that helped with like their health and their wellness and helped reduce insurance costs, because it was all about supporting like health and wellness and a more holistic approach. So he spearheaded that at Whole Foods for a long time. He co authored the Whole Foods diet book with john Mackey, who is the the co founder and former CEO of Whole Foods. And he is the creator of a brand called we be calm, which they make this breathing device for it's where they market it to kids, but it's for adults as well. And it's it kind of gamifies breathing, like slow breathing, where you like breathe into this tube and watch a little air like a little ball rise. And it's to help like instantly calm you down. It's really, really cool. So I'll give listeners a code for that. If they go to if podcast.com slash we be w e be, you can get 25% off go to that link. And then there's a button in the bottom right corner to get 25% off. But that was a lengthy introduction. So the reason I want to talk about it today, and what led to the study that I'm going to talk about is be ready friends, because we talk a lot on this show about the importance of protein and high protein diet and you know, the benefits of animal protein. So Dr. Letterman, he is very much in the plant based world and the vegan world. So we had a very interesting conversation that I think people will find helpful because he brought a different perspective. He thinks most people don't need to worry about protein, he thinks we should, you know, minimize animal protein. So I do not agree with a lot of what he said. But I think it's really helpful to expose yourself to all different viewpoints. Because that keeps you from, you know, being in a silo and being biased and cherry picking. So I'm excited to hear what listeners think about next week's episode, you'll have to listen and let me know what you think too. Yeah, how do you feel about different opinions? And I feel about different opinions like that.

Barry Conrad

I think that I'm on the same page with it being really really helpful and interesting to hear different opinions and also as soon as you said that about the we don't need like he doesn't think we need to focus on protein I had to literally listeners sit back in my chair away from the mike before it. Because I don't agree with that but yeah all four opinions though.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I don't either. And I did push back on it. And so we debated about it back and forth. One of the arguments he made, but this was about, and this brings me to today's study, this is not about protein per se, but he was saying that these toxic compounds like carcinogens and pollutants in the environment become massively more concentrated in animal products compared to plants. Because as the animal eats, everything concentrates and goes up the food chain. So he was saying eating an animal-based diet exposes you to way more toxins than a plant-based diet. And I have a lot of thoughts about that. One, I think there's a big difference between an organic animal-based diet compared to a conventional plant-based diet. You have to take that into account. He pushed back and said there wasn't much of a difference between organic versus conventional toxins in animal products. And I actually, I researched that and looks like that's an accurate statement. It looks like there's not a huge difference between them because these compounds are so pervasive in the environment. I just think the benefits of animal-based products, especially protein and the nutrients that you can get, and I talk about this in next week's episode. So check it out for instance, like a major teaser for next week. I just think it's so valuable for so many people. The nutrients are more easily assimilated. There's a lot of nutrients that can be hard for people to convert into the correct form. So things like ALA versus DHA and EPA, the omega-3s, what else? Well, vitamin B12 is really only in something like spirulina, shout out, if you want to have that on a vegan diet. There's just a lot of nutrients like choline and creatine and such, which are much more concentrated in animal products. But in any case, I asked him if maybe some of this could be avoided by eating lean animal protein rather than fatty animal protein because toxins tend to accumulate in fat. He kind of gave me that, but he was still kind of not about it. So I went and researched this concept and I found a really, really interesting study about fat accumulation and toxins and what happens when you fast. So that's what I'm going to talk about. But before I move into that, I want to say I really adore Dr. Matthew Letterman. He was amazing and it was such a respectful conversation. And at the end, he was so overwhelmingly abundantly clear that he feels people should find what works for them personally. And that's how I feel as well. So I just want to say that. Yeah. Should I, do you have any thoughts or should I bring up the study?

Barry Conrad

Let's get into the study i'm curious to hear this.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. So I found this study because I was trying to find a study talking about if you eat lean meat compared to fatty meat, would that reduce your toxin exposure? And I couldn't find a study looking just at that, but then I found a study that mentioned it in passing and it was in a broader study that was really, really interesting. So that's what I'm going to talk about. But it is true that eating lean meat compared to fatty meat can really help reduce your exposure to most of those toxins because they do accumulate in fat. The exception would be something like mercury, like heavy metals and fish. Those actually accumulate in the protein, not the fat. So you just can't win. You just can't win. That's why I think it's so important to eat fish that's very low on the food chain. But the study is called adipose tissue as a site of toxin accumulation. It was published, I'll give you the link as well, September 2018 in comprehensive physiology. And some of the takeaways from this study was it was talking about these, they're called POPs. They're persistent organic pollutants. And basically, they're all these different compounds that are so saturated in our environment that they persist. So even though a lot of them have been banned or are not being actively used, they are still there and they tend to accumulate and they are not good for our health. So what's interesting about them is our body, there's a good side and a bad side to this. So in order to protect us from these compounds, because they are so toxic, our body stores them in fat so that they won't hurt us. And while they're in our fat stores, they are inert. So they can't hurt us, although there's a little bit of a caveat I want to talk about, but they can't directly hurt us while they're in the fat. But then the problem happens is when you try to lose weight by weight loss and fasting in particular, it talks about that in the study, that we mobilize these toxins into our bodies, and they can actually hurt us. So it talks about how fast weight loss can be a problem for some people because they released so many of these compounds. And so these compounds are things you might have heard of like BPA or phthalates. There was actually a conference in 2001 at the Stockholm convention and they came up with their Dirty Dozen list, which was 12 key ones. And they have very long names, but some of the other ones you might have heard of are like dioxins, DDT, PCBs, all of these things. What's really interesting is not only does our body store them in fat, and we release them when we lose weight, they actually... One of the theses of this paper was that they contribute to obesity and insulin resistance and diabetes and all the things. And that's because they actually can encourage insulin resistance. I've talked before about things called obesogens, and that's what these are. They're literally these compounds that can make you store and gain weight. And then within the fat cells, they actually make the fat cells more inflammatory and they actually can make the fat more likely... Make it more resistant to weight loss and make it more likely to gain weight from there.

Melanie Avalon

It just goes to speak... I know I talk a lot about the importance of things like safe skincare and makeup and like what you put in your body and the role of toxins. And that's because these compounds literally can affect your metabolic health. They can encourage you to gain weight and make it hard to lose weight. So people often are struggling with weight loss and things and these compounds may be playing a really large role in it. It's not just the food, even though they started this with the food saying that animal products can be higher in these compounds, but we're exposed to them in all different ways. So yeah, do you have thoughts? It's kind of a story, but...

Barry Conrad

It's not a dairy donor. For me, I just think that... Well, actually, I had a question when you first started, which was you said in lean protein. So does that mean, lean animal protein, does it still count if you cut the fat off? For example, like a steak, if you cut the fat off and then prepare it, cook it, grill it, or does it have to come in its actual form just leaner, less fatty? Like how does...

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, that's a really great question. So there's a few different things here. So when it comes to fat and meat, there's intramuscular and extra muscular fat. So when you're talking about like cutting off the fat, so that's extra muscular fat that you can cut off, which is great because you cut it off and you're removing those toxic compounds in that fat. But then there's what you're talking about, which is just the actual animal itself needs to be leaner. And that is something else because you can't cut out the fat if the fat is inside of the actual meat. You can cook it out by cooking it more and the fat drains out, but you're not going to remove all of it. So this is actually really interesting where grass-fed versus conventional meat comes into play because you'll notice if you have grass-fed beef, for example, or bison, that it's way leaner than conventional beef and steak. And that's because those animals, because of their lifestyle, they're just leaner and they're less insulin resistant, less obesogenic from how they're raised. So they're not storing as much fat inside of their actual muscle. So you're going to, to the point of the toxins, getting grass-fed meat should reduce your exposure to some of that fat. Or if you look at, for example, like conventional farm-raised salmon versus wild-caught salmon, it's so much fattier, the farm salmon. So, yeah. It's a good question.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, going back to what you said about animal protein versus plant protein, though, I just think it seems like such a clear slam dunk to me, from my opinion, and I could be wrong. But from what I know, we know that, you know, animal proteins, it's a complete protein. It's not, you know, whereas, you know, like plant proteins, like they have fiber and antioxidants. But, I mean, animal proteins, better absorption, it's higher in leucine, more nutrient dense. So, for muscle and strength, you'd think, isn't it clear that animal protein is sort of king? What do you think?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I have so many thoughts. I really do agree. It is true that you can get the full amino acid profile by combining different plants. I just think if it comes to supporting muscle in your body, the amino acid profile of animal products is just much more ideal for that. It's much more easily assimilated. It's everything that you just said. I think people can struggle to get enough protein on plant-based diets. I understand it works for some people, but I think it can be hard. An argument he was making, and I'm excited to tell you about this. An argument he was making was that some of these amino acids are pro-aging because they really stimulate mTOR and IGF-1, which are growth-promoting signals which relates to aging and an excess of which may correlate to cancer. These are things like leucine in particular, methionine. I agree with that, but I think there's some magic to having intermittent fasting because that's going to reduce those growth signals and then have the growth-promoting protein in your eating window. I feel like you get best of both worlds. I've wondered this for a long time. I've also been haunted by this for a long time because I eat a super high protein diet. I feel like Barry, you're probably one of the only people I know who might eat. I don't know. I feel like I eat more than you, protein-wise.

Barry Conrad

We'll have to have a protein off.

Melanie Avalon

a protein off, but you eat a lot too, like, yeah.

Barry Conrad

A lot of animal protein to clarify.

Melanie Avalon

I've been hoping that the fasting does provide ample mitigation of that growth time when you're having that high protein diet for an anti-aging effect. And I interviewed... Did I tell you this yet? How I interviewed Matt Dawson? Did I tell you this?

Barry Conrad

refresh my memory, maybe you did.

Melanie Avalon

So he let me see what episode it was. So he was episode 412. He is the founder or co founder of wild health.com, which they provide this, like this full lab work, genetic analysis platform where they really test what you need to be testing. Then you work with their providers to figure out what you need to do with your diet and lifestyle. And they run your, they sequence your DNA and you get this massive report. That's like 50 pages talking about your genes and how they affect your diet, your sleep, your lifestyle. It is fascinating. I absolutely love it. I want to do that. Yeah. It was, oh, I can, yeah. Let me talk to him and see if we can get you set up on it. So I can't recommend it enough. And I was excited because it really did match what I said. So like, or what I experienced as far as like what it was saying, like it was saying that I'm, um, you know, like a night owl and oh, that like when it comes to neurotransmitters that I'm very, I break down dopamine slowly. So I'm very like dopamine driven, which is kind of how I feel. I'm always like high dopamine. And then they helped identify that I knew I had methylation issues, but they put, they had me go on like a methyl folate supplement to help with my homocysteine. So that was exciting. So I definitely recommend it. People can go to wild health.com slash Melanie Avalon and use the code Melanie Avalon. That will get you 20% off, but he's also the like founder or CEO. He's the head honcho at another company called true diagnostic.

Barry Conrad

I feel like maybe you did tell me about him because I remember some of this, yeah. That sounds awesome, though, what you just said about, you know, getting that 50 pages worth of data. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

It's so, so cool. I really love it. And it helps you, you know, kind of figure out what diet might work for you. But the long windy road is, he's also at this company called True Diagnostic, and they provide, this is so exciting, three epigenetic age tests for your biological age, which for listeners, that's basically what is your age on the inside. So you have your chronological age, and then you have your biological age. He looked at my results. So there's three tests on it. Let me see what they're called. So there's three tests. One is the it's called the Omic age, or Omic M age, and it was developed with Harvard. Then there's the Dunedin pace, which was made with Duke and Columbia, and then the symphony age from Yale. So I got my results back. And he told me, he told me my results were some of the best he's ever seen for epigenetic aging. And this is the guy who runs the company.

Barry Conrad

That's massive. What did he say? So what can you share some of like the comparison?

Melanie Avalon

I'll share with my results, but the reason it was really exciting was I've been haunted by this idea like, is eating this really high protein diet aging me faster, you know, or is it a problem? But according to this results, I'm doing, I'm aging really slowly. So the Omik age, that's the one with, who did I say that was with, with Harvard. So at the time I took the test, I was 33.53. The result, I was 10.64 years younger by that, which was, so I was 22.89. And then the, the dune in pace of aging test, which he said, he said this one is really telling for how are you actually aging in the moment. Like the other one is kind of like, what is, the other one's like, what is your age, your biological age now? But this one actually looks at like, how are you aging, like the rate of aging. And I was 0.67. So basically for every year of aging, I'm aging at a rate of 0.67. And that's the one he said he was like really impressed with. And then the symphony.

Barry Conrad

Almost half, you know, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, almost. And then the symphony age, that actually looks at 11 distinct organ systems. And it tells you, in each organ system, are you aging slower or faster? In nine of them, I was aging slower. So I was aging slower in systems, heart, inflammation, metabolic, brain, musculoskeletal, kidneys, liver, lungs, and blood. And then I was aging slightly faster in immune and hormones. But he did say that a lot of these can fluctuate from day to day. So point being is, I'm sorry, this is so long. I feel like I've been talking for the entire episode.

Barry Conrad

No, this is super interesting.

Melanie Avalon

So listeners will have a code for you. So if you go to Melanie Avalon.com slash true diagnostic, and that's spelled TRU for true, so Melanie Avalon.com slash true diagnostic. T R U D I A G N O S T I C. You can get 10% off with the code Melanie Avalon. But yeah, the point is I've been, I think what this really says, and I realize it's an N of one, like I am, it's only me as an example, but it does to me clearly show that it is possible to eat exuberant amounts of protein and not be aging faster from it, given the overall context. So, you know, the intermittent fasting pattern, because it can't, it, I mean, it literally does mean that because it does mean that at the very least eating high, high protein will not always 100% of the time make you age faster because I'm literally eating a ton and I'm aging slower. And I think that's due to the fasting. I mean, it has to be, because if not, I should be.

Barry Conrad

changing faster. That's amazing, actually. I want to do that as well. Can we do that in Australia? Or does that have to be in America for that?

Melanie Avalon

Probably not, I can find out.

Barry Conrad

I'll wait till I'm there.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'll find out it might be and same with the wild health might be a little bit difficult because It's like they have to order blood tests and stuff for you. This one though was a saliva test. So maybe I'll have to find out you would love it

Barry Conrad

Yeah, in any case, Mel, like you're right, what you're saying, it backs up what we both really believe about animal protein and eating high protein diet, you know, and it's amazing to hear those results. It's science. So how can you... Yeah, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

It was so exciting because it's the information I've been needing for a long time to feel, I don't know, to feel not quite as worried about my high protein diet. I really think the fasting is doing something magical. And something else I want to say, all these studies on high protein diets and aging, especially if they're causation correlation, if it's completely just epidemiological data, like they're looking at people on high protein diets, most people on high protein diets are eating a lot of food in general. Like it's the rare subset. It's like bodybuilders and people who are eating like a high protein, but like a low calorie diet. Like that's pretty rare. So it's hard to know how much of it is the protein and how much of it is just the diet in general, like the calorie load of the diet in general and like eating constantly.

Barry Conrad

It's my brain's buzzing. I'm so excited to hear this news because it's basically just confirmation. Also, did you, did you really, were you really feeling like that? Like feeling like, oh, is this good that I'm eating this much protein?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, 100%. I asked this question. If you go through my biohacking one, my biohacking podcast, I ask everybody who I think might have information about this, I ask them their thoughts on the trade-off between high protein diets and longevity. So I'm pretty sure I asked David Sinclair and Valter Longo and even people on the high protein side of things like Gabrielle Lyon. Yeah, I'm haunted by this question.

Barry Conrad

What do they all say like on average like all those guests like to they all support the high protein or do they cut is it more abstract like what they say about it.

Melanie Avalon

It pretty much depends what camp they're in. So I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger end of last year, and he's one of the biggest vegan people out there. And he made the case that he thinks protein is the most aging thing, specifically the amino acid methionine. According to him, the most aging thing you can do is eat a high methionine diet. So yeah, he was team low protein. Walter Longo, who is also team low protein, I asked him this question. I remember I actually asked him. So he's the one who created the fasting mimicking diet. He's at the University of Southern California. We've had him on this show, and I've had him on my other show once or twice. I'm actually trying to book him again for his new book, which is on cancer. I asked him specifically. I was like, do you think maybe if I'm eating a high protein diet, but in a one meal a day window every day, and then fasting all day, is that mitigating the effects? And he said it's possible, but we just don't know. Basically, why risk it? What's his answer? But then people like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon will make the case that supporting muscle is of most importance for longevity. So you get all different answers. But yes, to answer your question, I am very haunted by this question.

Barry Conrad

Well, hopefully you less wanted after getting those results.

Melanie Avalon

I am. I felt intuitively like I don't feel like I'm aging from it. It feels very supportive of my metabolic health. And then the fasting every day just intuitively feels good. Like I don't feel like I'm aging faster.

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree with you 100% and same with you.

Melanie Avalon

You look amazing. You look like a baby.

Barry Conrad

you look amazing too. Hopefully a big baby not like an actual

Melanie Avalon

A big baby, no, not an actual baby. It's like, what's that movie, Tuck Everlasting? Like, don't age.

Barry Conrad

Aye, yeah, yeah

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I don't know if you ever saw that I saw that like forever

Barry Conrad

I can't even tell, like, you're one of those people where looking at you, you just can't tell your age, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Like you can't really pinpoint it

Barry Conrad

Like he should be in Twilight.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, you too. Let's make a movie. Let's cast ourselves.

Barry Conrad

I like how there was a ding when you said that in the background.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, my goodness. So that was a lot.

Barry Conrad

No, it was a lot in a good way.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, should we answer a listener question? Any other thoughts?

Barry Conrad

No, I'm very, very happy to hear what you just shared because I'm so big on protein too, so it's encouraging. Let's get into some questions.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Okay. All right. So we have a question from Nydia, and this actually relates a little bit to some of the things we talked about, but this was on Facebook. And friends, you can join our Facebook group, IF Biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods, plus life, and ask questions in there for us, all the things. So Nydia says, why after almost four years, I can't seem to get fat adapted. I do clean fast since I started to fast. I do 19-6 most of the time. I close my window with no sweets, so my glucose levels won't be higher. I lost weight, then gained all of it back, and some more. I'm 50 years old. I weigh 170 and 5-3, so yes, I'm obese, L-O-L. She said L-O-L. I didn't add that in. She said it. So what are your thoughts, Yuri?

Barry Conrad

Well, Nydia, how's it going? I hope you're having a good week. First off, massive, massive respect for sticking with IF for four years. That's a long time and it's a real commitment, which is great. I know how frustrating it could be, you know, to feel like you're doing everything right, but not really getting the results you expected. But let me tell you that your, your body isn't, it's not working against you. Your, it sounds like from what you're saying that something's out of sync there, but we can, we can figure it out. So when people talk about quote unquote fat adapted, it means like their body has shifted into like a fat burning mode, which means using stored fat for energy instead of running on carbs. And based on what you're saying, you are clean fasting, doing a solid 19, six situation and keeping your sugar in check, which is good. So you're ahead of the game there. But if your body is holding on to the weight or even gaining, that's a big clue that something needs tweaking here. So the first thing I'd look at is drum roll protein, protein intake, because it's, it's a huge, it's a huge thing, especially at 50 and as we get older, we naturally lose muscle and that can slow our metabolism down. We name checked over four, but for example, Dr. Gabrielle lion, who's the physician and expert in all things muscle. You know, she says that after the age of 30, we can lose approximately like three to 8% of muscle mass per decade. That's significant. So with that rate, even accelerating after age 60, we need more protein. So if you're not getting enough protein to support your muscle, your body isn't going to burn fat as efficiently. And that's just the reality. So I'll be real. A lot of people think they're eating enough protein and a lot of my friends and family say, yeah, I had a steak for dinner. I had some chicken for lunch. I had my protein, but that's actually not having enough. When you actually track for a day or two, you'll find that you're way under like a lot of people do. So a good rule rule of thumb here is to aim for at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight and don't just guess it though, like actually track it for a couple of days and see where you're at, that might surprise you. Next up, are you eating enough overall? So this might kind of sound weird, but if you're under eating, your body can go into a kind of survival mode where it actually will hold onto the fat instead of burning it, which is not what we want. So this happens when we fast too aggressively or we don't fully refuel in our eating window. So eat enough on the flip side of that. It's easy to overeat without realizing, right? Especially if your meals are packed with like cheeses or, you know, quote unquote, health foods in the health food aisle, which are calorie dense.

Barry Conrad

So tracking your intake for a few days, it's going to help. Then we have to talk about hormones. I'm going to tread lightly here. Melanie, you can jump in if you need here, but because this stage of life, from my understanding of it, things like insulin, estrogen, cortisol, and thyroid function, it all plays a huge role in the way we lose weight, lose fat. So if your insulin sensitivity has changed or your estrogen levels are shifting, your body might store the fat more easily, especially around your your midsection. And we can't forget about cortisol because if stress levels are high, that's going to spike cravings and slow fat loss and even like really mess up your sleep. So if you haven't had your hormones checked in a while, this could be, could be a missing piece of it. Sometimes even simple shifts in meal timing or food choices are going to help to bring that back into balance. And speaking of sleep, like, and I'm preaching to myself here, it matters so much more than we think, because if you're not getting the deep quality sleep, your body doesn't fully recover, your hunger hormones get out of whack and your metabolism is going to slow. So if you're not winding down probably before bed nadir, I definitely think it's worth paying attention to. Bottom line, I don't think this is any kind of failure or nothing's broken. It's just, I think there's just some tweaks you can make here. And honestly, the fact that you stuck with this for four years proves you have the discipline, the mindset and the patience to figure this out. You don't need to overall everything. It's just fine tune what's not working. You've already done the hard part by staying consistent. And so I reckon you're much closer than you think you are. You got this, Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon

That was so wonderful. That was amazing. Thank you so much. I agree with everything you said. I'll throw in some other things that you could think about or consider. So first of all, I love the protein, I echo all of that back. So I think we've made it really clear how important that is. And one thing you could try. So you say that you you close your window with no sweet so your glucose won't be higher. If you haven't done a round of wearing a CGM, I would highly recommend that. So it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a little sensor that you put on your arm and it monitors your blood sugar levels 24 seven. So you'll get a good picture of how your blood sugar is actually responding all throughout the day. And I think that will provide a really helpful picture of what might be going on. So you could try Nutrisense. So for that, go to Nutrisense.io slash I have podcasts, that's n u t r i s e n s e.com slash I have podcast and use you can use the code I have podcast that will get you a discount. I think it's $30. But it will definitely get you a discount and one free month of nutritionist support. So you could try that. And then you can also try a lumen device that might be something to try. I love lumen. It's a device which measures the level of carbon dioxide in your breath to actually tell you if you're burning carbs or fat, and then helps you work you through to get more into the fat burning zone more often. It's a really, really cool metabolic device. It's actually the same science when they do these studies in lab controlled ward studies where they try to see how people are burning carbs or fat, it's actually using that science, which is so cool. So if you want to discount on that, you can go to Melanie Avalon comm slash lumen l u m e n and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon and that will give you a discount there. So definitely try that or definitely consider trying that. And then I recently interviewed for the second time I interviewed her recently, this episode will be airing April 11. So check it out when it airs. It's with Dr. Kate Shanahan, although you can actually listen to I interviewed her a few years ago. So you can listen to that old one in the meantime as well. And that's on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. So Dr. Shanahan, she wrote Deep Nutrition, which is an incredible book. That's how I was exposed to her work. But then she more recently wrote The Fat Burn Fix. And then her newest book is called Dark Calories. And the subtitle is how vegetable oils destroy our health and how we can get it back. She is a huge proponent of the idea that seed oils are what are causing so much of our metabolic health issues today. She does take it to the utmost extreme, like this is the cause of like all the problems. I do think there's something there though, I personally have been on a seed oil free diet for years and years.

Melanie Avalon

I've been on a quote PUFA depletion diet. So basically, PUFA is the poly unsaturated fatty acids, things like omega three is omega sixes and they're very high in seed oils. And these, these fats, they're not meant to be energy, they're more like a, they have health benefits for our body, but they're not meant to be burned by the mitochondria as ongoing energy. And when they are, they're very inflammatory. And she makes a very comprehensive scientific case for the fact that these are creating insulin resistance, metabolic health issues and are and are like she thinks it's like the reason people get into stubborn weight situations like Nydia is experiencing. So you could definitely I don't you don't mention and I think this is huge. You don't mention what you're eating besides not eating sweets at night. There is so much potential that can happen when you clean up. I don't like the word cleanup. But when you change actually what you're eating, so change to eating just whole foods, removing those seed oils, removing processed foods, that can have a massive effect on your metabolic health and your weight loss. So that's definitely something to consider. And then also, like I was talking about earlier, if we have these toxins stored in our fat tissue, especially if you're obese, you probably have a lot of toxins stored in your fat tissue, that might be making it harder for you to lose weight. It is what it is. It's not meant to be scary or bad. It just it's knowledge to know that that might be an issue for you and that maybe you need to lose weight slowly and as much as you can reduce your incoming exposure to these environmental toxins through your diet choices, your skincare and makeup, all the things. So and then I will just quickly say, you know, Barry's comment about hormones. So so huge hormones can be a big reason that we, you know, can not easily lose weight. So Anything you do to optimize your diet with like the food choices and your health and your lifestyle and your sleep, those are all going to help with hormones, kind of just to echo what Barry was saying. So you've got this, there's a lot of things you can try, keep tweaking and you can always write back in, keep us updated. Yeah, let us know. So, okay, Barry, shall we hypothet... or what's the word, hypothetically? No, no, no. What's the word? Hypothetically break our fast? Not hypothetically. Hypothetically. Hypothetically.

Barry Conrad

So we virtually, yeah, I guess hypothetically, I guess so, right?

Melanie Avalon

And it's not hypothetically. What's the word for it's like you're not actually doing it, but you're like doing it in your mind?

Barry Conrad

We mentally break up, so we imaginatively break up us.

Melanie Avalon

Should we that our vast let's do it. Okay, I'm so ready. Awesome. Do you have a restaurant for us to talk about?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant today that I'm really excited about.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I'm excited too.

Barry Conrad

It's called Kaya wine bar, and it's in my favorite city in the whole world. You can guess it, Mel.

Melanie Avalon

what your favorite city in the whole world? Wait, is it in, what? Is it in, I should know this, I'm embarrassed.

Barry Conrad

It's in the States.

Melanie Avalon

It is in the U.S.? Okay. Is it New York?

Barry Conrad

Yes, you got it. I was going to say that. And the other reason why it's one of my favorite, one of my favorite restaurants to share is because it's South African, which I am. So Kaya wine bar, it's like nestled in Manhattan's Upper East Side. It's a celebrated South African haven founded in 2011 by Suzanne Haupt of Leish, a native of South Africa's Free State province. Kaya means home. So that's the vibe we're sitting here. The Michelin guide highlighted it as like a South African gem in the heart of Manhattan. It's been recognized as like one of New York's essential places to eat by eater. And the New Yorker also featured Kaya noting its unique position as the city's sole South African restaurant. So I'm so ready to go. And Melanie, it offers a diverse array of South African dishes like elk tata, lamb burgers and traditional boba tea. Do you know what elk is?

Melanie Avalon

Do I know what elk is? Do I not know what elk is? Do people not know what elk is? I mean, some people don't. Wait, really? I love elk. It's my favorite. It's so good. It might be my favorite.

Barry Conrad

and get this as well. It has a selection of over 50 South African wines, which I knew you'd like. So, elk and wine.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Okay. Yes, because the purpose of this is we want to emphasize how much we love food and fasting is not just about fasting, it's about what you're eating as well. And it's about breaking the fast.

Barry Conrad

I'll just send you the link.

Melanie Avalon

they have oysters i will not be getting those.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, why not?

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. I'm done.

Barry Conrad

OK, here we go.

Melanie Avalon

No, I am going to have them with you one time and then I'm officially done.

Barry Conrad

Maybe more than one time if you actually see the light and see how good they are.

Melanie Avalon

Mm hmm. They have normal oysters and roasted oysters. Sure. For the sliders and snack. Okay, wait. So, okay. So there's sliders and snacks. There's a taco shop. There's a lot of stuff. Okay. Then there's like the, wait, so what does this mean? Is com com? What is that word? Combuis entree?

Barry Conrad

Okay, so it basically means like the kitchen, like a nautical term for cooking placed aboard a ship. So here we go. This is like the kitchen time to eat. So it's like the main course situation. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Well, for my starter, I would get the lamb skewers, which come with lamb skewers, apricot and onions, and a Pinatas reduction. So I would get them rare, completely plain, and can they put everything on the side.

Barry Conrad

Just the one, just the one thing.

Melanie Avalon

This is the starter. Oh, um, I think so. If you get some bacon, I might taste it. Wait, what are, what are drummets like duck drummets?

Barry Conrad

Jomet's a kind of like, you know, drumsticks, like, you know, like, uh, do you call it drumsticks in?

Melanie Avalon

Oh yeah, that's cool. Okay, I'll have those as well also with the sticky mango chutney sauce on the side, please.

Barry Conrad

And the mango chut- Honestly, Melanie, Mrs. Ball's chutney in South Africa is a staple and it'll change your life. It's so good. It's so good. That mango chutney.

Melanie Avalon

That's like a thing that's known there.

Barry Conrad

It's definitely a thing.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, those are my choices, how do you feel? What would you get for the starter?

Barry Conrad

How do I feel? First of all, I feel disappointed that you didn't choose oysters, but I'm gonna go.

Melanie Avalon

You can get the oysters.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to get roasted oysters and the regular oysters.

Melanie Avalon

You're getting both. You're getting roasted and the regular.

Barry Conrad

Why are you yelling?

Melanie Avalon

I'm just clarifying. There's going to be a lot of oysters.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and the roasted oysters, listen, it's caramelized shallots comes with caramelized shallots, smoked cheddar and breadcrumbs. Then I'm also going to get the lamb sosotis, which is the lamb skewers that Melanie got and the, the ian tflerikis, which is the drumettes. So I'll get the same of those two. And then I think I'm also going to get the duck a spice chicken with onion, marmalade and caya aioli. So that's like four, four trinkets, a little something, something, nothing too crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Are we going to double up on the things or share it? Like the ones that are overlapping? I guess. Let's share it. We could, but then also, how do you have your lamp code?

Barry Conrad

Well, the elk, for example, which we haven't got into yet, it has to be on the, more on the rare side, it's to stay tender, but lamb, medium rare rare, I could do, I could do either.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it sounds good. I like this menu. I really like the different, the diverse representation of animal related foods.

Barry Conrad

I knew it. So Africa is like animal protein heaven. You love it there.

Melanie Avalon

Oh man, I bet I would.

Barry Conrad

So what about a main situation for you? What are you thinking?

Melanie Avalon

So I'm not going to go the taco route, I don't think, unless they do it without taco shells. Actually, what if I, could I request just like all the meat? Because at the taco shop pick three, could they just give me the meat, like just give me the pork, the shrimp, the steak? That's too confusing. I'm going to go the entrees. Okay. I will get, I'm so excited about this el carpaccio. This is so exciting. And I love that it's an entree, like a main thing. It must be really big. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. I'm excited.

Barry Conrad

And also just to let you know as well, like in South Africa, portions, we throw down. Like we can, it's big.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, like America, like the U.S.

Barry Conrad

Maybe not quite as big, but it's on the bigger side.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Well, I'm really excited about this el carpaccio situation.

Barry Conrad

What about the, what about the commasals, which is peri peri dry scallops. You didn't like that. The look of that.

Melanie Avalon

So I don't like to get scallops when I'm out because I, I have them all the time at home and I eat pounds and pounds with them at home. There's no way on earth. If I order them out, it's going to be enough. It's going to be like a scallop. But wait, where is it? What's it called?

Barry Conrad

the camossels that's so like that's it's just above boboti come on

Melanie Avalon

Well, I do like, okay, let's get those two. I changed my mind.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, my eyes went straight to the Gatsby and this is, okay, so listen, I'm from Cape Town originally, so that's, the Gatsby is sort of like this big roll. If you can imagine like a, a French stick, but wider and bigger, and they fill it with like all kinds, like any feelings that you want, like chicken or whatever kind of animal protein and fries, sometimes it's just delicious. So I'm going to do the Gatsby, and this is described as, Portuguese roll stuffed with garam masala pulled chicken, pepper dews, cayenne pickled curvy cucumbers, mayo and fries. So I'm going to have that, the El Capachio that Mel had, and also I have to go for, just because it's the wild, some peon mac and cheese, got to do it. So I'm really going in here.

Melanie Avalon

I will look at your mac and cheese and appreciate it vicariously through you. I'm excited you're ordering it because I like looking at mac and cheese.

Barry Conrad

Would you try some? Or no?

Melanie Avalon

No, boy. Oh, no, it's not good. It wipes me out. I know. So I know like what food, Barry and I talk about this a lot. Like I know what food makes me feel good inside and out and some don't. So I'd rather not have them. Like I'm like a happier person not having it, but I still appreciate it vicariously through other people. And then I eat the food that I like, I might as well, if I'm going to love what I'm eating anyways, I might as well eat the food I love that's also not going to make me feel bad, you know?

Barry Conrad

It's a good call, you know, kind of be mad at that. Personal.

Melanie Avalon

like my personal constitution. Yeah, I had another thought about it. I don't remember. Oh, the El Carpacho. I'm excited because I do like mustard and it comes with her, it says with my mother's mustard is what it says, and a peppery arugula salad. So I might bury, I might actually have some of the accompanying sauce, the mustard.

Barry Conrad

That's awesome. Because usually, listen as you already know this, but Melanie would be like, I'll get everything, but I'll have like, you know, all the additives on the side. You know?

Melanie Avalon

There we go. That's awesome. Yep. I would just have it not at all, but I want them to feel like, I feel like it makes the chef happy if I at least get it on the side. And then other people might want to try it. So everybody wins.

Barry Conrad

Everybody wins.

Melanie Avalon

So what would you get for dessert? Is there a dessert list on here?

Barry Conrad

Yep. Scroll on down and you're going to see all kinds of other things there that you're going to that I need to point out to you like Bill Tong. Do you know what Bill Tong is, Melanie? Yes, we do.

Melanie Avalon

talked about this. Where is it on here?

Barry Conrad

So good at the meats.

Melanie Avalon

Wait a second, is this a whole other menu? Oh, is this just like meat? Oh my goodness, I miss this part of the menu. Okay, well this is great because this will be my dessert.

Barry Conrad

I knew you'd like that.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, I'll try the Biltong.

Barry Conrad

Do you want to go first?

Melanie Avalon

They put emojis, oh my gosh, they put emojis in their descriptions. I'm so not not like an actual emoji, but like a smiley face. I'm so a fan of this place. I don't think I've ever seen that in a minute. I don't know if I have never seen that in a menu. I don't think have you.

Barry Conrad

No, I haven't actually. It's actually a good point.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. I love it. Okay. Because it says South African biltong. And then underneath it says one fourth pound naturally dried beef jerky, but way better. Smiley face. Wow. That's funny. I think I would get for dessert the prosciutto. Maybe the, I don't know, what is car, Carpicola? Goose. Goose? Oh yeah. Let's try that. Yeah. Some of the meats. I would just be like, bring me a lot of meats.

Barry Conrad

Even their wineries there, you're just going to have to go to South Africa because it's just like the meat is so good to produce and the wine is so good, I'm getting excited. Is that it? Are you getting nothing else for dessert?

Melanie Avalon

And then maybe I'll repeat something like whatever I like to the moat. Okay, so when we're having the appetizers, whatever I like really like, I'll tell them to save some for dessert for me at the end and I'll have it again. So be it the duck or the lamb or I have to decide though when we're actually trying it.

Barry Conrad

Okay, for dessert for me, definitely getting the biltong, definitely getting the drouvours, which basically is dry sausage, it means that. But it's really delicious, so I'll get those two and then I'll migrate to the peppermint crisp tarte, which is like a peppermint crisp tarte, it's really, really good. And then I'll have the malva pudding, which is basically a South African delicacy, it's sticky day, sticky cake with homemade vanilla custard, so I'll get those two and the meats.

Melanie Avalon

It all sounds really good. It sounds like you feel like you're at home, which is appropriate because it's about home.

Barry Conrad

What about Vino?

Melanie Avalon

So I can't answer on the fly because I would have to look up every single one and find the organic ones and then I'd have to look at the alcohol and find the low alcohol. But if I had to guess, I really, it's really hard to know. But as far as like varietals that I'm intrigued by that I really like, I love Grenache Noir. I'm really excited by the look of that one. They are organic. So the Grenache Noir, the Foundry, that's just the first one that spoke to me and I looked it up. It looks like it's 13.5% alcohol. I try to get 13% or less, but it is organic. So I'm just gonna, just because I don't have time to look through all of them, I'm gonna go with that one for now. That one looks good.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I'm going to go for, you know, I usually go for Pinot Grigio, but we're in South Africa and there's lots of meat here. So I'm going to go for the Pinotage, which is, I've actually had that. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon

That's what I'm looking up right now, because it's like South African wine, like they're known for pinotage.

Barry Conrad

It's really good.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. Awesome. Well, great restaurant find. And I forgot, you said you have been here or have not been here.

Barry Conrad

I haven't been to this restaurant, but I'm going next time and I'm in New York. It's happening because I didn't know it existed until yeah.

Melanie Avalon

That's so exciting. You must send pictures and upload them to our Instagram.

Barry Conrad

I'll do it. I have to do it.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Okay, well, this was so, so fun for listeners. We hope you had as much fun as we did. If you would like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions at iapodcast.com. You can also go to iapodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get the show notes, which there are a lot of notes in the show notes, a lot of blinks of things we talked about, all the things. Those will be at iapodcast.com slash episode 414, which is a palindrome. And you can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad, and we are iapodcast. So anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

Hope you all have an amazing week. Thank you for listening. Keep your questions coming and happy fasting and feasting from me.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

Bye!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Mar 10

Episode 412 – Special Guest Dr. Matt Dawson, Wild Health, Finding YOUR Perfect Diet, Blood, Genetic, & Epigenetic Testing, Optimizing Biological Age, Interpreting Lab Results, AI & The Future Of Healthcare, And More!

Wild Health Website | TruDiagnostic Website

Welcome to Episode 412 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SHOW NOTES

SPECIAL GUEST

Dr. Matt Dawson is the CEO and Co-Founder of Wild Health, a genomics based precision medicine company. He is also CEO of TruDiagnostic, a deep science epigenetics company focused on human longevity testing. Dr. Dawson has published dozens of research articles, authored two textbooks, and written over 100 book chapters. He has won national awards in education and innovation and given talks in over 20 countries. He has a passion for not only human performance and longevity, but also bringing cutting edge research and science to market so that individuals can actually benefit from them. As such, he has founded 6 companies in the last decade, all of which are still in operation. Three of these have been acquired. His passion for human performance started in high school when he paired it with suboptimal natural athletic abilities to earn college scholarship offers in two different sports. His passion for longevity comes from a desire to be around as long as possible for his 4 children, wife, and future great grandchildren. He lives with that current family and two dogs in the woods of Kentucky.

Dr. Matthew Dawson attended medical school at The University of Kentucky before completing his residency in emergency medicine at The University of Utah, where he served as both chief resident and fellow. He has practiced medicine and was an associate professor at the University of Kentucky for 7 years, with an acute interest in functional medicine and, later, genomics. Dr. Dawson’s obsession with performance optimization began well before medical school. In high school, he would implement any fitness or nutrition technique that’d give him ‘an edge’ in athletics, resulting in college scholarship offers in two sports. Dr. Dawson carried this obsession with him through medical school and into his profession as a physician, earning numerous national awards for education, innovation, and leadership on account of his research and approach to health care.

‍Dr. Dawson crystallized this approach to providing patients with true health care, rather than sick care, by building Wild Health – a Precision Medicine service providing personalized, genetics-based care to help patients achieve optimal wellbeing. In that, Dr. Dawson has also trained thousands of physicians in Precision Medicine through online education, and has lectured in over twenty countries around the world. Dr. Dawson also co-hosts the Wild Health Podcast, a tool for teaching thousands about personalized, genetics-based Precision Medicine. His passion to help patients maximize their health span and perform at their absolute best considers all aspects of health: mental, physical, and spiritual.

Wild Health IG | Wild Health LinkedIn

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

WILD HEALTH: Get 20% off with code melanieavalon at wildhealth.com/melanieavalon.

TRUDIAGNOSTIC: Get 10% off at melanieavalon.com/trudiagnostic.

ONESKIN

Founded by a team of all female scientists, OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company, with products shown to reduce your skin's biological age! OneSkin addresses skin health at the molecular level, targeting the root causes of aging so skin behaves, feels, and appears younger. It’s time to get started with your new face, eye, and body routine at a discounted rate today! Get 15% off with the code IFPODCAST at https://www.oneskin.co.

MD LOGIC

Get 10% off MD Logic's Health Marine Collagen with code ifpodcast at ifpodcast.com/collagen.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 412 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Welcome back, friends, to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 412. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here today with a very, very special guest. So the backstory on today's conversation, a while ago now, I got reached out to by a company called Wild Health. And they're doing very cool things when it comes to monitoring everything in your body that you need to be monitoring to actually take charge of your health right now, to take charge of your aging and longevity, all the things. I was really intrigued by their service because I know it can be really confusing, I think, for a lot of people to really navigate what's going on in their body. And there's so many different markers to look at. There's blood, there's genetics, there's just so many things. And what I really loved about Wild Health is it's a platform that encompasses all of that and analyzes things for you and makes things very implementable and approachable. So it looks at your blood work, it looks at your DNA, your genetic tendencies, it even looks at your biological age. And we'll dive into what that actually means. What's really cool is it's really easy to do to take the test, all the things. And then you have the portal, you have your results, you get this really comprehensive, like 50-page report that I was reading last night, again, and was fascinated by. And you actually get to work with coaches and practitioners in the portal to help make sense of everything. So I think the service is going to be so helpful for so many people. And I have so many questions as well as my own personal experience to share. So I'm here with the CEO and co-founder, Dr. Matt Dawson. Dr. Dawson, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Thanks for having me. You get such a great description of what we do. You nailed it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, thank you. I really like because I feel like there are a lot of different companies trying to do what you're doing. And I like I said, I was very, very impressed with just the whole system and everything that I learned personally and and where the focuses are. But to introduce yourself a little bit to listeners. Can you tell listeners a little bit about your personal story? I know you attended medical school at the University of Kentucky and you did your residency in emergency medicine at the University of Utah. And you've published a lot when it comes to textbooks and articles and things like that. But what led you to what you're doing today with this wild health service?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Sure. Yeah. So you're right. So I went to kind of traditional medicine route at first, and it was around six years ago. I was working at an academic center. I was teaching med students and residents and writing and publishing and doing all that. I started noticing all of the science emerging around genomics and personalized medicine. And it looked to me like for the first time that we could really personalize almost everything down to the level of someone's DNA. Like we've known for a while that you can look and see what medications will or won't work, what someone's likely to have side effects from. But it looked like you could even personalize diet, exercise, sleep, supplements, all of these other things. I kind of started diving into that, went down a rabbit hole when it comes to that. My co-founder at Wild Health, Mike Malin, he's also a physician. We sequenced our DNA. We started looking into it. And around that time, he had a difficult medical issue. He found out that his lipids were through the roof, like a really dangerous level, like cause a heart attack level. So he saw his doctor. His doctor told him to do a specific diet that works for most people, but Mike's not most people. He's Mike, and he got worse on this diet. So his doctor then wanted to put him on a statin, which is fine. It helps most people. But Mike had a bunch of side effects for him. I had muscle breakdown, myopathy. And when we looked at his genetics, we saw that, oh, wow, it looks like his genetics needs to be on almost the exact opposite diet of what his doctor had put him on. And he had a very specific gene variation that made him almost guaranteed to get that muscle breakdown of myopathy. And we were kind of angry at first, but then we just realized, well, medicine is always 15 to 20 years behind. And while the science is out there, no one is doing this. And we couldn't really tolerate that. We left our universities. We started doing it for friends and family, and just started having really remarkable results when we started personalizing people's treatment and recommendations to their DNA.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I love this so much. And like I said, I was reading my report last night and it was, I guess, validating. It was nice to read some of the different sections and just see how much it aligned with me personally. So for example, in the sleep analysis, it was telling me that I have a genetic tendency to be a night owl, which is so true. In the food sections, it was telling me that I might have increased gluten and wheat sensitivity. Oh, in the mental section, there was one about how I tend to be dopamine driven, which is literally what I say about myself all the time that I feel like I keep a lot of dopamine around in my brain. So, okay, I have so many questions here. So these genetic tendencies that we have, how do you approach, because you just mentioned that, you looked at his data and you realized that he wasn't on the appropriate diet and all of these things. It mentions on wild health that there are, is it over 70,000 different SNPs? And maybe you can define what a SNP is. How do you decide which ones to look at? How to interpret them? And also, how do we know it's accurate? Because I noticed, for example, in the section that talks about your APOE, or was it the APOB? One of them, it was saying that it's actually, I think it's probably the APOE, one, that it's hard with accuracy to actually test that. So how do we know that what we're testing is accurate? How do you know what to test? And how do you know how to interpret it? Lots of questions.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, no great questions. And yeah, it's about 700,000 specific SNPs that we test, and a SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. So it just means that it's a slight variation, and it just puts you at increased or decreased risk for something. So APOE is a good example of one of those. So if you have an APOE4 gene, then you're about 200 to 300% more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease. And if you have two of those, if you have an APOE4, you're about 11 times more likely. So someone is at more risk. Now, your DNA is not your destiny. We've heard this term DNA is destiny. It's not. It's only about 20% of your health outcome. And that APOE4 is a great example of that. So one of the first patients that we saw was my mother. My grandmother had passed away of dementia of this disease, and I was worried that my mother would have this gene, and sure enough, she did. But what I told her at the time is I said, mom, this is good news, because we know about this now, and we know what to do about it. And when we put her on the program, personalizing her diet, her sleep, her exercise, in three months, she lost 40 pounds, reversed her insulin resistance, told me she felt 20 years younger, and I think that we will prevent, or at least delay by 10 to 20 years, her getting that disease. So we find these differences in our genes, and we do something about them. You ask about diet. So another example of that is actually, I told about Mike and his diet. One of this was kind of an aha moment for both of us when we look at our genes. It looked like when we looked at our genes that he and I needed to be on pretty much the opposite diets. So he had all of these sensitivities to saturated fats, where I had none of those. And I had all these sensitivities to carbohydrates. And so it looked like I almost would do really well on a ketogenic animal-heavy diet, and he would do well on almost a vegan diet. And so we tested this. We would eat the exact same thing for two weeks, do the same workouts, draw our blood. And we were eating his diet. He destroyed me in the workouts. It was much better. His lab looked great. He felt great. When we switched to my diet, I would beat him in the same workouts. I felt great. He felt horrible. His labs were bad. Mine were good. And we're like, wow, this is why it's like religious wars when people talk about diet, like people they're keto or they're vegetarian or vegan or omnivore or carnivore or Mediterranean. It's because people find the perfect diet for themselves, and they assume it's perfect for everybody else. But we're not like that. We're very bio-individual, and personalizing all of these things makes a big difference in how we feel and perform and the diseases that we get.

Melanie Avalon

It's so interesting and I think it is so relevant to so many listeners on this show because we get so many questions about people having that very debate that you just talked about. Do I do lower carb? Do I do lower fat? I think it can be really confusing and of course you can do trial and error and try it yourself but having this lens of looking at through your DNA can just be so, so helpful. And what I found really interesting is cause I really gravitate towards an animal based diet. A lot of my genetic SNPs really did seem to line up with that. So for example, I saw that I have difficulty converting a lot of the plant based sources of vitamins into their usable form in my body and so I would benefit from having an animal based diet there with those different nutrients. How do you handle potentially conflicting genetic information that may pop up? So for example, my general recommendations in my report were that I tolerate saturated fat well, that I tend to tolerate carbs like okay, like in the middle. In general I was getting like low carb recommendations but then also at the same time some of the SNPs indicated that I'd be better on a high carb low fat approach. So how do you handle that when people have SNPs that seem to be conflicting?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah. So you said something important earlier. I want to go back to you said, it seems like a lot of people are trying to do this. And I think it's important to use that word, because one of the things we realized very early is it's not easy. Like, this is very complex. So, I mean, we, we've spent over $50 million on the platform to do this. And so it we use, we built this on an AI platform that takes into account, not just all your genetics, but also the blood work and a lot of other information as well. So like, you'll get kind of the general recommendations that will pop up and populate in there based on all the different SNPs. But then we also, the last step is actually running this through a physician and a health coach filter as well. That's where we give the final recommendation to kind of edit things. And but what the AI engine does is it kind of pulls together all the different stuff to make specific recommendations. I mentioned earlier, I'll give you a good example from food. With food, we don't really actually usually talk in terms of the big macro diets, the big macro categories, like vegan, omnivore, keto, things like that. We talk in specific foods, like what are potentially super foods versus kryptonite foods. So like for my mother, a couple of the steps that you mentioned, so there's a fads too, that means she needs more of the active form of omega three from animals. She also has a collagen 5A1 snip, which means she needs more collagen protein and a VDR snip, meaning she probably needs more vitamin D, a BCMO, meaning she needs more vitamin A. So when you put those together, the algorithm said, okay, for you, the world's perfect food looks like it's probably a sardine. It has a really clean source of omega three. It has a collagen protein in the skin and the bones. It has vitamin A and vitamin D in the organs because it's a whole animal. And so it kind of put all of that together. And then for kryptonite foods, you mentioned you had some sensitivities to wheat and gluten. She had that as well. So that's an SH2B3 gene, but she also had an MCM6. So it meant dairy is inflammatory for her. So identifying kind of the super foods and kryptonite foods, we think is a better way to go about talking about food than kind of the bigger categories itself. But at the same time, if you're seeing the doctor and the health coach and you're talking through some of these things now for you, if it looks like, well, you have some genes that mean you need more, that you'll be fine with, with fats and animal, animal fats and some where you need more complex carbohydrates. Well, then we're going to look at your lab tests. So for example, if your ApoB, your kind of most atherogenic cholesterol particle is through the roof, that may give us a little bit of pause on the animal proteins. But if your hemoglobin A1c is really high and you have a lot of insulin sensitivity, that may give us some pause towards the carbohydrates. So we would tailor the recommendations based not just on the genetics, but the lab tests as well.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And then what also are your goals around activity and exercise and things like that. So it's a complex picture that we use the AI engine to make most of the recommendations. And then we add on the kind of doctor and health coach, their kind of final look and talking to the patient as well.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. Yeah, because I think, well, first of all, I want to say you did a really good job with the report of having it be very comprehensive. Like there's so much information, but also it is very approachable. It's very readable. So I really appreciate that aspect. And I really liked that. So basically AI can, you know, analyze and generate all of these findings, but then having that conversation with a real human being who can walk you through it. And, and that's what I remember when I met with my health coach, she was very knowledgeable and helpful in saying like, this is what this actually means. Like she was saying, like, you know, I know there's like a lot of data here, but here's what we're actually looking at. And then like you just said, when we actually look at your blood work, what do we see and what changes should we make? And I actually made a very practical, implementable change immediately after having this conversation. And that was that, cause I'm looking right now at my, like the summary at the very end. And it looks at like your lipids, your methylation, your vitamins and micronutrients, your hormones, your inflammation and your insulin resistance slash, slash metabolism. The one category that's like all red is my methylation category, which I have known. I've, I've known, I, I struggled with that in the past, but it was nice because talking to her, she was like, okay, like what, you know, what you need to do is you really need to be on a methyl folate supplement here. It's also interesting because, you know, based on the whole context of that, which it talks about in the report, apparently there are different ways that you could go about addressing it based on the whole comprehensive picture. But what she was saying with me was to get on that and now, and I've been on that and I've seen a big difference. So, so thank you. That was like a very like practical change that I made.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And I'll make one point about that, about the provider and things, too. This is called precision medicine. I like to remind people it's precision medicine, not perfect medicine. So our recommendations as a physician or a health coach or a provider is only as good as the amount of data we have. So the fact that we have an incredible amount of data about your genes, all the biomarkers, scientific data, all of this, means we're going to be able to give much better recommendations, but we still need to follow that over time and make sure that what we're recommending is actually working. So I think the relationship part of this is really important, too, having that relationship with a physician health coach that can interpret, like you were mentioning. And like things I mentioned earlier, like from my mother, they identified that sardines was the world's perfect food. Well, the perfect food and perfect diet for you is the one that you're going to be able to follow as well. If she had said, that's disgusting, I'm not going to eat sardines, well, then we would have just found other ways to kind of plug those holes and give her that extra support that she needs. So it is definitely, the AI platform is very powerful, but having that human with it and following someone over time, because humans are complex, is a very important part of the process.

Melanie Avalon

with the evolution of AI, is it continuously updated? And do you ever have to retest your genes ever, or is that technology pretty much done like you've done the testing, and now AI can just adapt to interpreting it?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah. So you would not have to retest your genetics. The AI itself, though, is getting better and is making the recommendations better and better over time. So when I say AI, though, I specifically think about two different things. So to be able to build all these recommendations, we need machine learning. A human's brain isn't, it's not the right tool to look at a million different variables and make recommendations. So you need machine learning for that. So that's what the platform is built on initially. However, the other thing that I mean when I say AI is large language models. So this has been a real game changer. So we took all of our, all of our IP, all the recommendation engine and all of that and put it on a large language model so that we could interact with it better. So for example, I have this app that we built on my phone, and I can actually interact with it. I can ask like I was giving a talk at an event in DC a few months ago, and I said to it, I said, Hey, I'm giving a talk. I'm in DC. I'm saying it's the Omni in DC. What should I have for lunch? And it gave me a specific meal at a restaurant point one miles away. That was based on it knows my genetics and I was on my lab work and who I slept that night, it knew that I lifted weights and went for a run that day, gave me the perfect meal at the perfect time there. So really cool stuff. And it can also it just pushes information like a few months ago, I got a notification from the LLM has all the status said, Hey, you are about you're overtraining, you're gonna get injured or sick. So I chatted back with it and said, Well, how do you know that? And it showed me all my HRV data, my resting heart rate trends, and I thought, Oh, yeah, I've been traveling and working out just as hard not sleeping. Well, historically, I would have just pushed through that and gotten sick or injured. But I saw this and then I said, Well, give me a program to recover over the next two weeks. And it knows my goals. At the time I was training to climb this mountain in Ecuador, and trying to improve my pickleball game. Those are my only only two goals. So it gave me recommendations personalized to me for those goals and to recover and follow that. So the LLMs are a real game changer and being able to interact with your with your data. Now that app itself, unfortunately, is not on the market. It actually was so good, we ended up taking it down because we were worried from a regulatory standpoint, it'd be seen as a practicing medicine. But we built it into our product where now, if you ask a question of your doctor and health coach, the LLM intercepts it, it gives them a suggested response because it knows everything about you. And the doctor hasn't memorized your 700,000 genes probably. And then the provider can kind of modify it or just use it or reject it and give a new answer. But we found when we first implemented that, the providers only use it about 20% of the time. But now it's over 90% of the time because the answers are phenomenal. Like they're just really good, much better than a than a regular person would give an answer.

Melanie Avalon

Do you think AI will ever completely take the place of humans?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, great question. So there's a couple different ways to think about that. Like if you asked me the question, is AI better at making medical diagnosis than doctors? There's no question. It's just much better. Like there's lots of data on that. There's also data comparing like Chad GPT to physicians and blinded. Well, because people said, well, okay, it's better making diagnosis, but the people are more empathetic. So then they tested that and when people were blinded chatting with a doctor, Chad GPT, they actually rated Chad GPT more empathetic too.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. I believe that.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So if you were to tell me your options are a doctor or AI, I take the AI every day, like I just do, and I am a physician. I don't actually think that's the decision though, just like when, let's think about chess. It took a long time before Big Blue, which is an AI machine from IBM, beat the world's best chess player. But the best chess player in the world now isn't a machine or a human, it's this combination. It's kind of a centaur. So what you want is a physician you really trust who stays super up to date and who is using the AI. Like you want the combination of the two is what I think the best medical care is now and in the future.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'm really interested by it. I did an episode recently on AI. The whole book was actually about the future of health care in regards to like technology and AI and stuff. And he was saying that the reason the synergy of humans and AI can surpass just AI is that AI doesn't have the ability to, I guess at least right now, to think outside of its own rule system. And sometimes you need to think outside of... You need to not break the rules, but you need to be able to think outside the box in that regard.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, I go really deep on this, especially the last couple weeks has been a crazy time in AI. And I would say, I don't know if I, I think you actually could train the AI to be much better at humans and we have that thinking out of the box and being creative. So I'm not I'm not sure if that's the separator. Maybe it is. I can give you another example, though, where them working together is really important. We had a patient who was young, like in the early 40s, executive came to us very healthy, no medical problems, just wanted to optimize probably like the 95th percentile already wanted to go to the 99th percentile. So great. We ran all of the stuff. And we got an alert from the AI from the large language model that said, Hey, notice some things like in his genetics and labs and things like this guy needs a deeper dive on cardiovascular health. So I as a physician or clinician, like no one would have said that this guy's perfectly healthy, young, we would have not got a clearly scan, which is an AI guy to CT angiogram for him, we would not have done that for him. It just didn't make sense. And from a textbook, but the AI picked it up. However, then actually having him do that, I don't know if he would have actually gone through the trouble of doing it, because he felt fine if just the AI was telling him, but he trusted us as a clinician. So it was kind of that combination of the AI finding it and then and then him trusting the human. And in fact, he got the scan, we got an emergency call from the radiologist who said he needs to go to the cath lab immediately he had like a 90% lesion and his LED, which is called the widow maker artery. And if he hadn't had this done, he probably would have died of a massive heart attack in the next year or two. And this was an example of the AI and the human either one of them alone, like would have been probably been a little deficient wouldn't have gotten this outcome. And now, I mean, this guy who he had two teenage daughters, and he's going to be with them hopefully for 40 more years instead of one to two years. So that's, that's just the example that pops to my mind when I think about humans and AI kind of working together to really deliver the next level of of medical care.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, yeah, I love that. Do you think there will be any, since AI has this super power to be able to analyze all this data, do you think it will come up with any really surprising findings or change our opinions on what we've historically thought about different medical conditions, treating them, like things like that? Paradigm shifts, basically.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

100%. And that's kind of why other guys, that's kind of why I push back on his thinking outside the box. Because when I look at this, like, AI, and people could argue about this word, I see AI is much more creative than humans already. And I wouldn't even say that a year ago, it's just progressing so quickly. Like, when you watch the emerging things that come out, or its ability to put things together, like creativity is really about pulling together kind of disparate things from different places to come up with new and novel ideas. They're really it's, it's fusing different different areas. And AI is amazing at that. So I yeah, I think AI, it's already in drug discovery, so many other areas, it's making a tremendous difference and really changing the care, we see it all the time and the recommendations that it makes, and the things that it comes up with, it's, it's very creative, and is definitely going to be showing us new ways to deal with things.

Melanie Avalon

Actually to that point, because so last night, so like I said, I did this a while ago, I read my report then last night, I went in and downloaded my report again, when it's generating the report, is it updating it when you go in?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, I don't think it is if you don't have new data, and I say I don't think it is because if it was like a year or two ago, then I think you would get a new report because there's been updates. But when you would get a new report is one, if there are updates pushed in the system or two, when you're feeding it more data. So if you had just had a new lab test, for example, then there would be a new report. But if there's no new data, then it would be the same report and recommendations.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, gotcha. One other question there. Oh, so when people are reading their results, when it's talking about these different SNPs, these, you know, genetics that people have, it'll say that you might have an increased or reduced risk of XYZ, you know, whatever condition or thing it's talking about in that section. How should we interpret that word risk? Especially if we don't know what the normal risk is for something. Yeah, how do we know the severity of what this means with this word risk? And is it like absolute or relative? Like, what's going on?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

there? That's a great question, and we could actually try to build that into the report and say it increases your risk by X amount, which means this, so therefore this. That would turn it into hundreds of pages, so that's part of where the human comes in, and that's why it's important to have a doctor and health coach, because if you have a PEMT SNP or some other SNP that says, oh, based on this, you have this increased risk of blood cancers or something like that, that can sound scary, but if you have the physician or the provider who has a context around that, it's like, okay, yeah, that means your risk of blood cancer goes from 0.5% to 0.6%, then that's like a one in a thousand increased risk that you got, so it's not a really big number, or even if it's a 1% for a 2%, that can sound scary, because you think, oh, my risk has doubled. Well, it's doubled from a relative risk standpoint, but still, from going from 1% to 2%, that's a 1% absolute, so it's a 1 in a hundred risk, so it's not really much to be worried about, like the stress from you thinking about that and constantly trying to do something about it is probably worse than having it, so it is important to have someone who can give you that context with these, quote, unquote, risks as well.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, awesome. Yeah, I did notice in the report that it was with one of the cancer related things that it actually gave me a little bit more data more in the language that you're using. And I had a feeling it was because for what the reason you just said, because you want it to be clear, like what it actually means practically. Okay, on the blood side testing side of things, so for listeners, so when you do this program, you get the genetic information, which that was a saliva test, right? The genetics. That's right. And then you also do a blood test and get a lot of biomarkers. How did you decide which biomarkers to include on the blood test and how did you decide the ranges?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

We basically said, okay, in the first assessment of someone, we want a lot. We kind of want as much information as we can reasonably get that doesn't kind of break the bank for them. So it's a large amount of tests initially. On follow-up testing, we try to get more targeted and specific, like what did we find? What are the risks? What are the things that we need to follow? So it's normally smaller tests. So we really picked, I think there's around 50-something biomarkers we start with, and we just think those are the ones that are most impactful. Now, there are others we could add. So if we do the testing and we're talking and we find that someone has elevated inflammatory markers and we just can't figure out exactly why, then we may add a lot more things. We may add some food sensitivity testing or some other toxin testing. If we're talking to someone and it sounds like hormones are an issue, we may do more advanced hormone testing. So the initial set is designed to give us the most bang for our buck, the most information without breaking the bank, and then we get very targeted from there when picking the lab test. And oh, you mentioned reference ranges. Yeah, so there are certainly classic reference ranges, and we'll use those for a lot of the tests, but others we try to use ranges that we consider more optimal for. There's an example, you mentioned methylation status. So homocysteine, I think a standard lab panels, they'll say it's normal if it's under 14. Well, we want you to be kind of under 10. Vitamin D, you may on some lab reports not get a quote unquote deficient number unless you're under 20. We want you definitely to be above 30 and optimally to be around 50 or more. So we do modify some to be more optimal range than just non-diseased.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, one of the personal findings I had, this was really interesting to me because this has been my theory for like a decade. And then getting my information back, I was like, okay, maybe, maybe this is correct, which is that, and this is again, this is showing how you look at the blood and the genetics. I always have high B12, like always, I test high for it. And so I tested high on this one for the blood work as well. But it said in my genetic analysis that I have a SNP which makes it hard for B12 to get into my cells. And so when I was talking with the practitioner to reviewing everything, I was like, oh, could this maybe be why it's always high for me because it's not getting into my cells, it's just like staying in my bloodstream. She agreed with me on that. So I thought that was really, really interesting. Another question, so the biological age test that people take. So what is the role of that? What is the difference between biological age and chronological age?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Sure. Yeah. So, chronologically, it's just pretty easy. That's how many years you've been alive. Most people know that. If you don't, you can look at your driver's license and there it is. The biology age is different. So, first off, age is the number one risk factor for almost every chronic disease. But we all know people who may be 40, but they look and feel and perform like a 30-year-old or a 50-year-old. So, that's more of a biologic age. What is your risk of getting diseases? Morbidity. And what is your risk of dying? Mortality. And traditionally, for years, there's been multiple of these biologic age tests that are out there. Most of them are not good. They're kind of junk. They're not validated. They may just be based on some random algorithm. But are they really telling you what you want to know, which is, am I increasing or decreasing risk of dying? And am I increasing or decreasing risk of getting disease? That's what we really want to know. That's kind of a true biologic age. At Wild Health, we use a company called True Diagnostic for that. Now, True Diagnostic is just to call out a conflict here. I am CEO of True Diagnostic as well. So, we were using True Diagnostic for years before I came in and started working with True Diagnostic. The reason why I like True Diagnostic is because of one specific test they have that I have used for years I really like, which is called the PACE test. So, I don't actually care that much if we get your biologic age back. And let's say you're chronologically 40, but your biologic age tells me you're 36 versus 44. I'm just going to try to optimize you either way. And if it tells me you're 44, biologically, and let's say that we believe that result, well, are you doing everything perfect now and you just had a really rough go of it in your 20s and 30s? Or is it reflecting something that's going on right now? That's unclear to me as well. What I like about the PACE test, this is a test about by Duke, it tells you what is your rate of aging right now. So, it's information right now. And what's great about it is it is very sensitive to change. Meaning, for example, if you get pregnant, that's a physiologic stress and your rate of aging goes up about 20 percent, but then it comes back down to normal when you deliver the baby. Same thing happens if you get COVID, have hip surgery, get a car accident, your rate of aging goes up, but it comes back down when you recover. What this allows me to do as a clinician is to do end-of-one experiments to figure out what is going to reduce your rate of aging. So, Stanford did a great study. Actually, it's not a great study. There are a lot of problems with the study, but the interesting thing about the study was there's this twin study where they move people back and forth between a vegan and an omnivore diet. And then they measured lots of things, but one of the things they measured was this PACE of aging. And they found that in eight weeks, changing your diet, you can have an effect on your rate of aging.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, we could change someone's diet and see how it affects the rate of aging. Or if someone says, I want to go to Panama and get IV stem cells. Well, that's expensive. If you're going to invest $40,000, it would be good to have an objective measure of something like rate of aging that we could look at and see if it affects that. Or if you're going to try a wrap of ice in or some other supplement stacks or other things. It's nice to have an integrator of all your health, like rate of aging to follow over time and try to push down as low as possible.

Melanie Avalon

okay, I am loving this part of the conversation so much. I mean, I've been loving the whole thing, but I'm really loving this. And I just pulled up my report as well. So mine was 10.64 years younger was my biological age, which it says puts me in the top 16% of the population. For that pace that you were talking about, mine was 0.67.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

That's that's incredible. Yeah. So the way the pace works is if you get a score of this one point zero, that means you're aging at the normal rate for someone your age and sex. If it's one point two, you're aging 20 percent faster. If it's point eight, you're you're aging 20 percent slower. So point six seven is remarkable. That means you're aging at two thirds normal rates. That means for for over 30 years, you're only going to age 20. You'll be 10 years younger than you should be in 30 years from now. So that is that is definitely one of the lowest ones I've seen. That's really incredible. It just means that you're you're doing a lot of things right. Like you're killing it. That's a really impressive pace score.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, wow. Okay. I'm really excited. And you said this was based on.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, this is developed by Duke. They have a really large cohort called the Dunedin cohort is a large group of people out of New Zealand that were followed for decades. And they followed them and watched how they aged, what diseases they got and things. And then they drew longitudinal blood samples over time. And then from that, they could derive and figure out what is your pace of aging based on different epigenetic markers. So this is epigenetics. So we sequence someone's DNA once, that's your genetics, that never changes. But I mentioned earlier, genetics is 20% of your health outcome. The other 80% are epigenetics, what you do, what you eat, your stress levels, how you sleep. And so you're doing all of that right, it seems like. And so the way we measure this pace is we look at gene expression, epigenetics. So it looks at about a million gene sites and tells how much each one is turned up or turned down, how much you're expressing those good or bad genes. And you turn them up and down by changing different lifestyle factors. And so from that, then they can derive what is your pace of aging. So that's how it is from that Duke study specifically, but that's a remarkable pace, that's great.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. And for listeners, when you get your report, it breaks it down into all these different organ systems, so 11 different systems, and it shows you are you aging, you know, slower or the same or faster in each one. So it's like heart, inflammation, metabolic brain, musculoskeletal, kidneys, liver, lungs, blood, immune hormones.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, and to be specific not only about that, so technically on the report, the trade report, you're going to get three different clocks. So Harvard developed a clock on the Olmec M.H. And that is probably the one where you said you're 10 years younger. That's the best predictor of kind of mortality, like your risk of dying. So you have a much lower risk of dying than someone your age. The other one you mentioned with the Oregon systems, that's from Yale. So Yale developed that one. It's called the symphony age. That's right. And because we age in a heterogeneous manner, like if someone drinks odd alcohol, their liver is going to age more quickly. If they're smoking, their lungs are going to age more quickly. So that's a nice one to figure out kind of maybe what is your weakest link. And then the pace one is from Duke. So three very different epigenetic clocks there.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, and so they should in theory align or do they often not?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Well, they're giving you different information. So, yours are pretty aligned. Like, you're only getting ages 10 years younger and your pace is 0.67. Both of those are remarkable. I don't see your symphony age, but most of your organ systems are probably going to be lower as well. Maybe not all of them. So, they do line up in general, but they're measuring three different things. So, they're really telling you different information. And I will say for any of your listeners that do this, like, don't be disappointed when your results aren't like Melanie's. That's a phenomenal result you've got.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, wow. Yeah, for the symphony, they're all aging slowly except for immune and hormones. Very interesting.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

And things change over time too, so it could be that when you repeat the test, there could just be a certain reason at that time that those may be a little off as well.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, this is so interesting to me. Two quick questions. One, because you're mentioning this, well, first of all, I love this idea about how one of them, like the pace is looking at like your pace of aging. That is so, so cool. Practically, it seems like a person could be aging slower. And then like you were saying, that means when you live chronologically this amount of time, but you're only going to quote age this other amount of time. And at the same time, it seems like there's a limit to how long we can live. Basically, my question is, do people age at different rates, but then is there still like this final timeline that once you hit it, you hit it?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

What I'll say to you is, so far, no one has ever not died necessarily that we have on record. That we're aware of. Yeah, so where is that limit? People argue over that all the time, like, is there an intrinsic limit? Is it 120? Like, where is it? I don't know. And as science progresses, like, we're going to get better and better. People are living longer and longer. But yes, it's really about slowing the rate of aging. And the other thing about the slowing rate of aging, it's not just about living longer. You're just going to feel better and perform better. So it's not even like how much time we're adding to your life by slowing the rate of aging. But I mean, when you're 60, it'd be great if you feel and perform like you're 50 or 40. And when you're 80, like, you feel like you're 60. So it's really about optimizing your health now and how you feel later, too, is that the rate of aging, that's the big thing. Because most of us don't actually die of old age. We die of cardiovascular disease, dementia, cancer. These are the big killers. So while health, we're trying to slow down your rate of aging and optimize and make you feel as good as we can now. But we're also really aggressively screening for and trying to prevent those big things as well at the same time, because that's really what's going to lead to a shorter life for most of us.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I have sort of a nuanced question. I hope I can articulate it. Let's say a person gets a test, like does this test, does the true diagnostics and gets all this aging information. So they have the potential to make lifestyle changes that will change the epigenetics. And if they are to retest, you know, in the future, hopefully they would see a beneficial change in that they're now aging slower based on these lifestyle changes that change their epigenetics. Is aging itself still a factor going against us? And what I mean by that is, even if they make these beneficial changes, if they test a year from now, does that year of aging, is that always going to be kind of a negative in affecting their rate of aging?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

If someone, if two people, let's say two people are doing the exact same things, they have the same genetics and everything else, if one of them is chronologically a year older, they're just going to have higher risk factors. So, it just is a risk factor in and of itself. Now, I think you were kind of asking the question like could maybe, and you tell me if this is a question, what was the question maybe like can you like reverse your biologic age and kind of be younger over time as well? Was that the kind of

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I think this is the reason I thought about it, because I was like, okay, I feel good about my results right now, so if I retest in a year and I haven't changed anything, but I've aged a year, is that going to slightly make my results not as good?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Right, so if you're not changing anything, you test in a year, you're in the same position, your rate of aging should, so what would most likely happen is your rate of aging.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, does aging affect the rate of aging?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah no it doesn't so okay now i got you yeah so your rate of aging if you're not doing anything anymore in poorly or any better should stay the same so the rate of should change so what you see for example you have that call your rate aging is say point six seven. And then in the three years you retest your rating still point six seven but your biologic age the one where you got a number that probably is only gonna go by two years instead of the three years. So that's that's the what you can see from that.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, gotcha. I've had David Sinclair on the show a few times and he has, you know, he came out with a book and his whole hypothesis was aging is a disease. Do you think aging is a disease?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

So, I think it's semantics, and what I mean by that is if we want to get, like, funding from NIH and places like that, it makes sense to call aging a disease. At the same time, aging is unnatural. Everyone ages, so is that does everyone have a disease here? So it really kind of depends on what you're trying to do with the word, like does it lose its meaning if you say aging? Now I've heard some people, like the argument, which is an interesting one, that disease, to kind of flip this around, disease is just aging of certain organs. So it's another way to look at it. When we have dementia, that's just aging of the brain in an accelerated fashion, or cardiovascular disease, aging of the heart. So is aging a disease? I think, honestly, the answer to that is it's a semantic question, and it's around words. If it's helpful for us to think of it as a disease so that we actually get more funding to treat it, then that's great. Because if we were to able to spend money on reducing the rate of aging of people, that would be way more effective than all the research that's going into individual diseases because aging is the number one risk factor for pretty much every chronic disease.

Melanie Avalon

That's pretty much the argument or the thoughts I subscribe to as well. Okay. I could ask you a million more questions, but I will stop myself. So listeners, I think you can see just how incredible this wild health platform is. So to recap, when you do this, you get all of this. So you get that genetic test where you're getting your risks for health based on your genetic DNA, you're getting that blood work, so a picture of what's happening right now and looking at it through these idealized ranges. And then also this biological age test where you're looking at epigenetics and looking at your rate of aging and things like that. And you get to work with a practitioner to help make sense of everything. But it's really an incredible platform. I'm so, so excited about it. Yeah, when listeners sign up and do this, how often do you recommend they do retesting? What will it look like practically for listeners to do this service?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, so what happens if someone signs up, they get DNA tests comes to their house, the blood work is just we just put an order in and you get that done. A lot of the testing is done at your house where we arrange it. You have the meeting with a physician health coach and then kind of the cadence from there, the retesting depends on what's going on and what we find. Sometimes we may repeat testing pretty quickly based on what we see or sometimes maybe it's not until another three or six months. It kind of depends on what we identify are the main issues and what we want to work on. Some things take a while to change, other things change pretty quickly. So after the initial all the testing and the meetings with the providers, it's a pretty individualized and personalized program from there just based on what you need.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. So friends, listeners, I really cannot recommend this enough and we have an awesome offer for you guys. So thank you so much for that. You can get 20% off a wild health membership when you use the code Melanie Avalon and that will be at wildhealth.com slash Melanie Avalon. So definitely check that out. This is, this has been so amazing. What are you most excited about with the future of all of this?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Yeah, it's very clear to me. It's epigenetics. So, the pace of aging and all that, that comes from epigenetics, but there's so much more we can do. There's a true diagnostic. We just did this big study with Harvard where we found that we could actually predict and report on hundreds, if not thousands, of biomarkers just with an epigenetic test. So, you get so much data at much lower cost. So, there's a new product called TrueHealth that True Diagnostic has reported on about 130 biomarkers with the same just few drops of blood that the TrueAge test uses as well. So, in the future, in the next few years, we'll be able to give tens of thousands of dollars worth of data and biomarkers for hundreds of dollars. So, just the amount of data that we have to optimize our self-worth and to prevent disease and predict diseases is going up exponentially.

Melanie Avalon

Amazing. How often do you take your blood work?

Dr. Matthew Dawson

I go overboard with it. I'm probably once a month testing, but I'm always doing different experiments and I want the data. So I'm testing a lot. I don't really recommend that often to anybody else. It's a lot.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Dawson. This has been incredible. Again, listeners go to wildhealth.com slash Melanie Avalon, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 20% off. Yeah, this has been so incredible and exciting. Thank you so much for all you're doing. It's changing so many lives. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Matthew Dawson

Thank you, Millie. It was a lot of fun. You asked great questions, so thanks so much for having me on.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Feb 23

Episode 410 – Autophagy Genes, Biohack Yourself, Fruitarianism, Eating Timing, Barefoot Shoes, Serrapeptase & MCT Oil, Fat-Fueled Exercise Problems, Protein Needs, And More!

Derek Duvall Show Episode 237: Melanie Avalon - Founder of AvalonX, Podcaster & Actress

Welcome to Episode 410 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Barry’s Upcoming Show: Destiny

STUDIES

Dawn-to-dusk intermittent fasting is associated with overexpression of autophagy genes: A prospective study on overweight and obese cohort

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 410 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of Avalon X and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of banter with BC. For more on us, check out Melanie Avalon.com and Barry Conrad official.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at I have podcast.com or by going to I have podcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show to not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 410 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Barry Conrad. How are you today, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I'm doing really well. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon

I'm good, what's new in your life?

Barry Conrad

Well, it's a beautiful day here in Sydney. The sun is shining. It's currently one o'clock. What is the time in Atlanta right now? I know we have a list as we have a wild.

Melanie Avalon

9 p.m.

Barry Conrad

I've actually been doing, earlier today, some work on some character work for my play that's happening later this year, Destiny. So that's been really, really good just diving into the character a bit more and excavating, I should say. So that's been really, really fulfilling and fun to do.

Melanie Avalon

That's so exciting. And when will you actually be performing that?

Barry Conrad

Yes, so listeners, it's called Destiny and we head into into work in July, but it runs from October 18th onwards. So if you're in Australia or you're going to be traveling here, please come see it. We'd love to see you at the show. It's going to be really special because of what it's about. So, yeah, I'd love to see you there.

Melanie Avalon

That's a long lead-up, right? Yeah. Like, how does that compare to how many months you normally rehearse for a show?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, well, we have well, usually it's maybe a couple months. So this is a longer lead up, but there's also more intermittent sort of workshops beforehand, which is really good where we get to actually be part of the process more, which has been really, really good and rewarding as an actor to have more of a say, you know, because it's a play and it's something different to sort of musical theater that I've done before. So that's why it is different. And it's, I'm so excited. I'm really, really excited about this Mel. So yeah, we'll have to put a link in the show notes for people if they're going to be around or happen to be in Australia, so they can check it out. Oh, definitely.

Melanie Avalon

Definitely. I'm so excited for you and I'm so proud of you. Wanna come? It's so awesome.

Barry Conrad

Come for a day what about you what's what's happening in melanie evolones world right now.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really curious by the time this comes out, because there's so many different potential products I'm working on right now, I'm curious what will be actually launched by the time this airs. The coffee line I'm making, Glow Coffee, my EMF blocking product line, which I know I've been talking about it for so long, but it's actually, like it's in production now, so we should be launching that sometime this quarter. We have our next two things we want to make for my supplement line, so hopefully one of those will be coming out around February. Then my really big project, which is, I don't know if I mentioned it on the show, I probably have the dating app that I'm working on, so lots of things, lots of things.

Barry Conrad

Bring it on, bring it on. Exciting.

Melanie Avalon

And I'm hoping to be going to some more conferences around this time as well. Oh, oh, I will. I'm actually going, I'm so excited. I'm going at the end of January. So I will have gotten back from it a few weeks ago, but I'm going to Sundance Film Festival for the first time, which is very exciting. I think we talked about that. Yeah, I'm really excited. You should come to that, see the movies.

Barry Conrad

That x is it's tempting you know i hear your friend the person that you know with the project that's so that's so incredible what an achievement to be able to have that in. Be part of that festival right that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's so exciting. Hopefully someday we'll see you there in a film. That'd be awesome.

Barry Conrad

or even maybe you, when you fire back into the land of acting.

Melanie Avalon

You never know. This is very true. We should manifest it.

Barry Conrad

Would you ever want to is that something that you maybe want to maybe possibly potentially maybe kind of do later on again.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, we shall see if the stars align So Okay, so friends we have decided to start starting off the show with an intermittent fasting study And we're gonna make it a surprise like one of us is gonna prep it for the other person but this time we just Got one together. So this one is called dawn to dusk intermittent fasting is associated with overexpression of autophagy genes and Perspective study on overweight and obese cohort So this was this is a new study published so it's actually gonna be published in February 2025, but the preprint is online already and Long story short we talk about how intermittent fasting Has been shown to have effects on healthy aging and longevity often through Autophagy genes and we talked about autophagy a lot on this show But basically it's the process where your body Goes in and breaks down old and problematic proteins in your body and recycles them It gets rid of dysfunctional ones and then it recycles them to make new cells and you know new proteins in your body It's like a cleanse on the cellular level. We know that fasting supports it And so this study actually looked at 51 participants there was 36 males and 15 females and they were all overweight or obese and They also had six healthy subjects who were a normal BMI that group was used as the control and They monitored these different genes that are involved in increasing autophagy And they found that at the end of the fasting period Compared to the pre fasting period that the participants that were overweight and obese They saw a significant increase for three autophagy genes and it's a lot of letters, but it's LEMP to LC3B and ATG5 and that was up to 4.2 times increase so the first one was 4.2 times the second one was 1.9 times and the third one was 1.4 times and then they did check another fourth autophagy gene But it was not significantly increased and the type of fasting by the way, they're looking at Ramadan which a lot of the Studies will use Ramadan fasting as a way to test fasting related things because so many people are Doing it anyway as a part of that lifestyle. So yeah, they concluded that basically Fasting with Ramadan is associated with the upregulation of autophagy gene expressions And that this may in part explain the short-term metabolic and health improving effects on early aging Related markers and they said that if presumably may be protective Against aging and metabolic disease and people who are overweight or obese. So I thought that was pretty cool Barry What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad

This actually really blew my mind because what sort of really stood out to me about the study is in just those four weeks of the fasting, as you said, the 51 participants who like there were mostly people with overweight or obesity had like this huge boost in activity of those three key genes that you said. Like the one gene there, it's called LAMP2, which listens to sort of like the manager for our bodies cleanup crew sort of thing. And it actually increased over four times. It's like their bodies were going into like an overdrive to heal and protect themselves, which I thought was amazing. And I've got friends who are Muslims, so I'm very familiar with Ramadan and how they fast and then feast. So this makes total sense that they conducted this study in that way. And yes, sure, like, you know, the people in the study lost the way and, you know, maybe reduced their waistline or whatever. But from what I'm understanding from the study is that the benefits like they went deeper than the physical. So the glacial went up, their inflammation went way down. Even anti-aging markers improved, which again, why I love fasting. It's not just about the scale. It's about the overall health and longevity and what's happening inside. And I mean, Mel, I've been fasting for years now since not as long as you, but 2018 and seeing signs like this just confirms those benefits firsthand, like the non-scale victories, that it's not just sort of like a clickbaity fad. It's something that is actually impacting us on like a cellular level, like keeping our bodies thriving. And also I loved another thing is that it didn't just sort of focus on one outcome. It showed that fasting, it doesn't magically fix anything. It's a powerful tool in the toolkit for better health and sort of like creating habits for work to help our body work better. So whether that's weight, inflammation or whatnot. I mean, Mel, I'd love your take. Do you think Daunter Dusk fasting has an edge over 19.5, 16.8, 24. How do you think autophagy plays into not just longevity, but everyday energy and recovery?

Melanie Avalon

I love all of this so much. Before I answer your questions, it's really empowering because this concept of epigenetics is just so wonderful because basically everybody has these genes. It's not like you have this gene or you don't have this gene. It's not a genetic destiny in that way. It's epigenetics, meaning we have these genes and then how they're expressed, like how they're actually functioning and if they're turned on or not and how much they're working is really determined by environment and lifestyle. So it's so empowering because it's like anybody can turn this on. You don't have to have been born with the gene because you already have it. It's just, is it being expressed or manifest or is it on? And it's so great to know that fasting can turn these genes on. Yeah, so as far as like the different types, like the different types like dawn to dusk or more of an hour space approach. So honestly, for me, I feel like it really comes down to what are you going to do consistently. So rather than saying like one is better than the other, I think it's really about finding what can you do and stick to. And for some people, it's like a dawn to dusk type approach. For some people, it's like a one meal a day. For some people, it's 18.6. But I really think there's a magic and it's kind of like last episode when you were talking about like the concept of tiny habits. It's like what are you actually doing day in and day out? So I would encourage people to find the fasting that works for them. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that concept?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, we're all very individual. It's hard for, well, it wouldn't be fair to prescribe one protocol to any one person. So I think just doing what works best for your body, I do feel like this study has made me not rethink, but, you know, just the benefits of timing your window, like timing wise in terms of like the time of day, do you know what I mean? Like, you know, how eating earlier rather than too late at night, what do you think about that? Or do you think it has a, there's any difference eating super late at night versus capping off your eating earlier in the day? That's something that this did provoke me to think about in terms of that.

Melanie Avalon

I've done a lot of diving into that. It does seem like there are a lot of studies about the problems with eating at night and late night eating. That said, I think I like sat down and looked at the actual like what winter hormones being released and what things are being turned on at different times. And for me, I feel like it points to a later eating window, but still while it's laid out, if you're being quote ideal, I don't think the hormonal profile right when you wake up is one in which you should be eating because once when you wake up, you have like cortisol, you have adrenaline, you have things that are releasing endogenous fuel, not prepping you to actually be eating. And I actually did a whole blog post on this that I can put a link to in the show notes. All of that said, it goes back to my answer before where I really think what you can stick to is what is best. So if eating later consistently is what works better for you, or if eating earlier consistently is what works better for you, I think what fits into your life, that's what I would focus on rather than what is in an ideal scenario in a metabolic word study, the perfect time to eat.

Barry Conrad

I think it leads back to what you were saying before, Melanie, about making habits work for us, you know, make it easier for our lifestyle, because that's going to be the thing that's going to actually sustain and be consistent rather than if this is the ideal window people are saying I should do, that, well, actually, what works best for you day in and day out? That's the thing, really. And for your body. Like for me, for example, I maybe, when I'm on vacation, I'll have breakfast when you're supposed to, quote unquote, have breakfast in the morning, but I don't start eating normally on the daily around till like four or five most days. So yeah, it's just like it's doing what is going to make me win and just stay consistent with my protocol. And so I think that's exactly what you should do as well.

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. And then just to go just to show how different we are. So if I were to eat at four or five, that'd be so early for me. Oh my goodness. I feel like the only way I could eat at four or five is if I like didn't eat that night before. Otherwise, I just wouldn't be hungry.

Barry Conrad

You're like 10 or 11. You eat later, way later.

Melanie Avalon

Are you late? Are you late? Actually this week I'm going to a dinner so I will be eating at a normal time. It's still late but it's not that late. It's like eight o'clock.

Barry Conrad

How do you feel about that? Do you feel excited about eating a bit earlier or not really, or kind of nervous or apprehensive?

Melanie Avalon

I don't like eating earlier. I'm not excited by that aspect of it, but I know that, I know I'll have a fun time and I know once I'm there, I'll love it. And so here's the other thing. Because I'm so intense with my routine of how I eat, I can kind of like signal to my body that it's eating time. Like normally when I start drinking, I'm like, you know, if I have some wine, that's kind of signaling that I'm about to eat. So I can kind of like tweak, well, actually that's not true because when I go out and have drinks, I don't eat. So maybe that, I think once I actually start eating, my body enters the like eating mode. And so it's all good. It's interesting because it's like, it's like your body becomes hungry once you actually start eating. If you're not hungry before, for me, that's my personal experience.

Barry Conrad

You know, what's really interesting is that sometimes when I'm in a longer fast, when I start thinking about food, it's almost like my body starts preparing to like, I just start, you know, like I start salivating. I'm like ready. Like my body knows like, and before starting intermittent fasting, I didn't really feel those cues or that sensation or have that experience. But now when I'm fasting, it's like, okay, it's time to eat. Like it's so fascinating. Do you ever feel that or not really?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, definitely. And that's a key thing about like dopamine, for example, because like people think people think often think dopamine is your happiness chemical and that compound or hormone and that dopamine makes you happy. But dopamine, it makes you happy at the thought of reaching a goal. So it's not actually getting the thing that makes you happy. It's like trying to get the thing that makes you happy. I promise this is going to relate. And the more dopamine is released and it's released just at the anticipation because it becomes a routine and a habit and self-reinforcing. So the point of this is we have habits that we do and once we start doing them and we get ingrained in them, we don't actually even have to do the thing that would release and encourage dopamine. We just have to like anticipate doing it and we get the dopamine hit. So they'll see that people who are, and it happens with food too. So like it's what you basically just said, like if you're accustomed to eating something that you really like or like in a situation that you like, you'll start releasing dopamine before you even do that thing. Yeah. So you can definitely, the body like anticipates and releases these compounds that then make you engage in that habit and like start the systems running, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad

It definitely makes sense. I think the body is just so fascinating. And I don't know if this is relative, but even as soon as you said that about the body sort of anticipates, even with things like acting or performance, like when something's ingrained, it's like an anticipation and you know what's coming. You know what I'm saying? It's like intuitive. You know, it's just like programmed on a cellular level almost. It's so awesome. I love that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And actually, so we had Mark Sisson on the show. Have we, have we talked about Palluva yet? His shoe line? No. Okay. This is going to be all over the place. I promise it relates though. Barry, we got to get you wearing Palluva's. Do you wear like running shoes?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, every day when I go to the gym.

Melanie Avalon

So I highly recommend friends check out Mark's book, Born to Walk. So Mark Sisson, he's, do you know Mark? He's like the, he's one of the, he's the founder of like the Primal Health movement. He, he had a Mark's Daily Apple. Yeah. He had like Primal Kitchen, lots of New York Times bestsellers, Primal Endurance, and I think the Primal Blueprint is probably his most famous one. He has the Keto Reset Diet, but in any case, in Born to Walk, and we'll put a link to that episode in the show notes, but he basically makes the case that we should not be, like we should be walking a lot. We shouldn't be doing this endurance, this intense endurance activity all the time and like marathons and running. It's just not good for you. And shoes are like horrible for our feet, like horrible. They basically allow you to move in a way that is not natural for the body and also sustain impact trauma consistently, but you don't really feel it because of the shoes, but you're still getting all that damage and it's just not good. So he has this line paluba, which is a, like a barefoot shoe. It's like where your like toes are separated in it. And he has a whole line of them. And literally he completely changed my, my, my thoughts about like shoes and running and walking. And oh, the reason I'm talking about this is because we were talking about how would these, there's like four different feel good neurotransmitters that people think of like dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and endorphins. And dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin are all good feeling things to bring good things to your life. So dopamine is about pursuing a goal. Serotonin is about like social hierarchy and feeling safe and social bonds. And then oxytocin is about like the love, like the bonding compound. It's from like hugs and like love and all those things. Endorphins, which also make you feel great, their purpose is to mask pain. So historically, their main purpose is like if an animal's being killed by another animal, they get flooded with endorphins so they don't feel it. So it's not a compound we should be chasing to feel as a good thing because literally its purpose is to make you not feel painful things happening. And that's what people who are doing intense running careers and marathoning and all the things are chasing, they're chasing endorphin highs. So that's why I was thinking about that.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I mean, that sounds amazing with the issue. I'd love to wear that. And also on that, I 100% subscribe to walking. I actually, my form of cardio in the gym or outdoors is walking. I do hill sprints or walking. I just think it's such an underrated way to burn fat and not just that it compounds things. You can do that at a very pretty easy pace. Burn fat effectively and do something like listen to a podcast or make calls. It's so good. And also just clear your mind so that that's one thing. Another thing is I'm actually in bare feet right now, Melanie, and I always wear shoes, but I was recently traveling a bit, seeing my family and in New Zealand. And I've never been more barefoot during those few weeks than probably in years and coming back, it's just more freeing. You feel grounded to the earth. You can move better. And I'm actually I promise you, I'm barefoot right now. So there you go. It's very fitting that you're talking about it.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. Yeah, it's literally, he completely changed my perspective on it. I'm like, I need to be barefoot, like all the time or wearing these palubas. And so yeah, I love that you had that experience giving your feet the more natural experience of the world. So listeners, you can get 10% off paluba. If you go to paluba.com slash iapodcast, that's p-e-l-u-v-a.com slash iapodcast and use the coupon code iapodcast. So and they have one of the shoes that I like, you can actually, I don't really like, I don't normally wear like tennis shoes and stuff anyways. So I need to start wearing the normal ones outside. But for wearing around the apartment, they do have one that kind of you can not use the back of it. So you can use it kind of like a slip on. And so that's the one I'm really loving. That's the Zen active slip on. So I have the women's Zen active slip on but they have so many different ones. Yeah, it's literally game changer. Okay, oh, I just thought of something really random. But I should have said in the beginning when we were talking about what we're like, what's new in our life. Guess who I'm interviewing. Speaking of interviews tomorrow. Actually, I don't know how you would guess but give me a clue. It's a character from like one of the most well known TV series in the superhero world. What?

Barry Conrad

Who is it? Oh, you know, Melanie, I love superheroes. Don't play with me. Hold on. Is it okay? Gender? Give me the gender.

Melanie Avalon

You want to play the yes or no game?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Okay, I'm ready. Are you under the age of 50?

Melanie Avalon

The person? Yeah. No.

Barry Conrad

Are you in a Marvel franchise?

Melanie Avalon

Not Marvel. I don't know anything about superheroes.

Barry Conrad

Okay, have you been in a release of this franchise in the last two years?

Melanie Avalon

The character or the actor? The actor. No.

Barry Conrad

I don't know, tell me, because now I'm just going to, but we need to play 20 Christians, this is fun, but tell me who it is because I'm dying to know.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like Barry and I could play 20 questions for like five hours, so we can just like play. It's the original Robin from Batman and Robin.

Barry Conrad

You mean, oh, that's amazing. Are you serious? How did you score? That's amazing. That's incredible. How'd you score that? That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

I was on the Derek Duvall show and that host Derek, he's like so kind and so nice. So he was interviewing me, um, I can put a link to that in the show notes. He connected me to Burt. He said Burt was like one of his favorite episodes he's ever done, but so Burt has, the reason he's going on like health related podcast is he has a, he has a gentle giants pet food line that is like to help support pet longevity and stuff. He's like all in now. He's all into dogs. They have, they have like he and his wife have, I don't know, 40 or 50 dogs at their house.

Barry Conrad

What?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and they make this pet food line.

Barry Conrad

If it's a big house.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I was watching videos. They put the food in like, like horse trough type things. Like feed the dogs. I am going to ask him a lot of questions about his dog, pet food line, but what would you ask him about his career, his acting career?

Barry Conrad

I would definitely ask him what was the most foundational thing you learned from being part of that franchise like with Batman and how has that shaped the rest of his like the trajectory of his career because that was like a huge, huge moment.

Melanie Avalon

And you were in, you were in Spider-Man something, right?

Barry Conrad

I was in power range. It's very different. It's very different.

Melanie Avalon

And here's the thing, I knew as Power Rangers, I was seeing Power Rangers in my head.

Barry Conrad

But Melanie, get this. Honestly, I always joke, but I'm not really joking. I would love to be. I'm obsessed with superheroes, so this is the perfect guest. I can't believe you're interviewing him. It's awesome. I'd love to be in a Marvel franchise.

Melanie Avalon

I'll let you know how it goes. Also, yes, Barry, you would be a perfect superhero. Which one would you be if you could be one?

Barry Conrad

like a current one, or you're asking me what kind of power I want.

Melanie Avalon

if you could be like, you know, like a new version of one of the ones.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. Okay. One of the ones, this is how you know, Melanie is not really a discoverer is Wolverine. Definitely. Hands down. My favorite.

Melanie Avalon

That's not a comic book though, is it?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, X-Men. X-Men.

Melanie Avalon

X-Men with a comic book? Wow. No idea. I had no idea.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I feel like if you were a superhero, you'd be like a biohacking, a biohacking superhero, like, take my red sauna. Like, I don't know, I could just see like in a dress looking really glamorous, looking really good, and then like, just like not breaking a sweat and just doing your thing.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'd be down. Is there a blonde, superhero, female? Many. I can't think of any.

Barry Conrad

We're going way off here. Sorry listeners, if this is not interesting, but we're having a good time.

Melanie Avalon

I'm a fasting superhero.

Barry Conrad

So what is the power? So you could fast real good, you know, 19 hours a day, 20 hours a day.

Melanie Avalon

I don't ever have to take the time to eat, so I have more time. Yeah, but I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. It's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. So, OK, before we go on to our next thing, we realize that last week, this is my bat. I only partly answered one of the listeners questions. So we had answered a question from Julian about MCT oil and syrup peptase. I answered the part about at the end about what MCT oil and coffee breaker fast and we kind of like ran with that, but we didn't answer the first part. So would you like to reread the first part?

Barry Conrad

So Julian on Facebook said, I just recently started implementing black coffee with MCT oil in the morning during a fasted state. I usually also take seropeptase during that time as well. Would it be fine to take both MCT oil and seropeptase simultaneously? I wanted to make sure the MCT oil didn't interfere with the seropeptase since it's helped my sinuses drastically. Also, if I'm having black coffee with MCT oil, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so totally forgot to answer this one. And so Julian is referring to my Avalon X serapeptase, which this actually ties into what we were talking about with autophagy. So serapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. And in the fasted state, well, its purpose in the silkworm is to break down the cocoon of the silkworm. So it breaks down nonliving tissue without hurting living tissue. So when we take it in the fasted state, kind of like how autophagy is that process in the body where we break down problematic proteins and things like that, that's what serapeptase does. And a lot of inflammation and health issues we have come from our body reacting to like proteins in our body. So like Julian says, it clears sinuses, I mean, dramatically. It's a game changer for that for me personally as well. And I hear that from so many people. And it can help with inflammation, it can break down amyloid plaque in the brain, help reduce cholesterol, all the things. I love it. I take it every single day of my life. And so you can't take it, well, you can take it with other food and proteins. But if you do, it'll just break down your food instead of going into the bloodstream and working its magic. So that's why it needs to be taken on an empty stomach. However, if you were to take it with MCT oil, MCT oil is just a pure fat. So serapeptase is not going to break down anything in that. So you could take MCT oil and serapeptase together is the answer to that. And if friends would like to get some serapeptase, they can go to avlonx.us and use the coupon code IF Podcast to get 10% off site wide there, including that serapeptase. It's kind of like a superhero serapeptase. It's like a superhero supplement, I think.

Barry Conrad

I've actually never tried syrup up this yet, so I feel like it's time for me to well and truly dive in and see what all the fuss is about, especially your supplement.

Melanie Avalon

Oh wait, did you get my bottle that I sent you?

Barry Conrad

I only got the magnesium. I didn't get the Sure-Five test.

Melanie Avalon

I didn't see new Sarah Papjes.

Barry Conrad

No. Oh. Not that I expect you to at all, but yeah, I haven't tried it yet.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, let me see, hopefully I can get it into Australia. It's like, I know I got the magnesium in. They do not make it easy. Yeah, they do. I will have to send you some. That's crazy. I really thought I had sent it to you.

Barry Conrad

That's all good. Yeah, but I definitely want to try it because I know that you talked about it so you rave on about it and you really believe in it. So I think it's definitely worth trying.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it is one of my favorite things like ever, ever, ever.

Barry Conrad

And do you take show of her days when to like to break your like during the when you break your first or when do you take it?

Melanie Avalon

So you would want to take it earlier in the fast and then not eat right after because if you ate right after, it would just break down the food. So you want to wait at least like an hour after to eat, but I take it in the morning and I don't eat until the evening, but I just notice such a difference. It just clears my sinuses. My brain helps with brain fog. It's amazing.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to write that down now because actually, I have allergies, like dust allergies, and when I was traveling recently, it's just so dusty, and I found it really hard, so I wonder if that would help mitigate some of the sinus issues as well. So that's definitely, I'm going to write this down right now.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, it would be amazing for that like game changer. It's so effective

Barry Conrad

Okay, great, awesome.

Melanie Avalon

All right, Barry, would you like to read our question from Camilla? And by the way, I picked this one because she's from Australia. That's not the only reason, but that's a reason.

Barry Conrad

So Camilla says, hi. First of all, I absolutely love your podcast. I'm 30 years old, Chilean woman working full time in Australia. And listening to you has saved my life from the boredom of cleaning rooms for eight hours a day and encourages me to keep fasting. I tried so many times fasting before, but never understood the importance of clean fasting. That changed everything. So my very big question is, back in time, I practiced about three years ago a lifestyle called hygienism. The diet includes fruit juiced fasting, which is two juices in the morning, 10 and 2 a.m. And then fruit for lunch, about one kilo of fruit, where I can mix acid with semi-acid and semi-acid with sweet fruit. A few fruits for snack and for dinner. Fruit for a big plate of salad with cooked veggies is optional. Also, I can choose one protein, one cereal, or one starchy vegetable. I followed this diet for about two years and was feeling fantastic. It was very similar to the feeling of being in the fasted state. In the first two weeks with just fruit and salad two days a week, I lost about 10 pounds. By the way, I was dancing and using my bike a lot. The problem with that diet is that my body got used to eating every two hours, otherwise I would have been shaking and so hungry. Also, my stomach got bigger because I had to eat lots of fruit to get satiated, but I had it all covered. I didn't crave junk food anymore and my cravings for sweets was gone as the fruit was all that I needed. The problem started when I left my comfort zone and during my travel, where I had not that quantity of fruit available and for social or emotional reasons. So I quit that lifestyle and started overeating. My stomach got really elastic and big with the fruit. And I binge ate. In one year, I put 20 pounds on in my body and I felt awful. I've been trying so many diets and fasting, et cetera, but I didn't understand that intermittent fasting was a lifestyle too. So far, I've been practicing clean, intermittent fasting for about two weeks. I feel much better, more energy, no cravings of junk food during fasting time. My mind is clearer and more calm, but I haven't lost weight because I'm still overeating and eating junk food became a disgusting habit. My problem is that when I have dinner, salad and cooked veggies, I still crave sweets and mess it all up with cookies, brown bread and jam, granola, whatever it looks that it can satisfy my brain. Sadly, I have housemates that love junk food too. So here's my question. What are your thoughts about doing intermittent fasting and having a fruit diet? I ask because I feel when I do strict food diet, I stick to it more easily than having a whole food meal. I don't think I would do just fruit as before because I used to have fruit for dinner at least three days a week, but I wonder what happens with the insulin and sugar levels if I do it for about a week or two.

Barry Conrad

My goal is weight loss. And since I started fasting, I also go back to daily yoga practices, riding my bike for about 30 minutes a day. Oh, and also today I began with MCT oil to break my fast. And I wonder, would I get the same great benefits if I drank the oil, if I do exercise, or would it be better if I exercise and then break the fast with the oil? Thanks so much in advance. And I apologize if the English isn't the best. You're so great. I can't be grateful enough for having met you in the virtual world. Send you lots of love.

Melanie Avalon

Camilla. All right, Camilla, quite a journey and so many questions there. I'm curious, Barry, have you ever done a stint where you did like fruit fasting or something like that, like only eight fruit?

Barry Conrad

for about a day, but because I love meat so much, it's like, this is not going to work for me. It's not really, what about you? It's just not, for me, it's not satiating or satisfying. And it just actually, if anything, makes me crave more sugars. So, no, not really, just a day.

Melanie Avalon

The longest I did was in college. That's when I, I think I've told you before I did my, my apple fast. Where I was going to eat apples for three days. And I went like 11 days eating just apples. And it is very true. I felt, I like, I felt high. Like I felt like Camilla said, like the fasting feeling, I felt very light. I, it was an experience for sure. I have so many thoughts about this. So one, I think a lot of people, especially if they are eating an unhealthy diet and then they switched to some sort of cleanse, like just green juices or just fruit, that, that is sustainable in the beginning for a little bit. And they probably feel really great. And if they have the fat to burn, you know, shedding the toxins, getting all of this hydration and nutrients from the fruit, and then the body is probably doing more topology and so it can feel really great, but here's the thing. For most people, I mean, I know they're apparently fruititarians out there that, you know, say they've done it for life. There's also a lot of fruititarians out there that stop doing it because it works really well in the beginning. And then they start falling apart. I don't think most people can get the protein they need, the nutrients they need on a fruit only diet forever. There might be the rare people who can, like they've got the perfect microbiome and the perfect constitution and it works for them. But for most people, I don't think it's going to work. And I think what happens is people will try it and experience these amazing health benefits. And so they think, they think it's the thing and that it should be, that they should do it longer and that when it stops working, that it's not because it's not sustainable, it's because, you know, of other problems, but maybe it's because it's not sustainable and you need more nutrients and protein. And you can only do that for so long. So, yeah, so I have a lot of thoughts here. Basically, I think it could be done as a short-term thing. Like I said, if you want to do it as a very short-term thing, like maybe a few days, if you can make it that way. And I guess combined with intermittent fasting while doing that, but it's just, it's not a long-term thing. I would not look to this as a long-term lifestyle. And I definitely wouldn't do long-term intermittent fasting with only fruit. I just think that is a recipe for a disaster. And especially if you're dealing with binging and craving and that effect, a lot of that could be due to not getting the nutrients you need, like the protein that you need. I would have a reframe and if you're doing fasting, focus on fasting, like let fasting be the cleansing process and then have your eating window be the nourishment and make sure that you get all the protein you need in that window so that you're not craving and binging.

Melanie Avalon

And something else I think people might not account for sometimes is just how much an effect that you can like undo what you've done if you get into a binging cycle, because I think people, if they're not doing fasting from a healthy perspective where they're getting enough protein, they're getting enough nutrition and instead they're not getting enough. And then they get into this like binge, you know, this binge cycle where they're binging and then they try to make up with it, make up for it with fasting, but then they're not eating enough. So then they binge again. Like that's not, you can create a lot of harm by doing that and it's not sustainable, it's not healthy. So I would focus on fasting and eating a lot in your eating windows. So you don't fall into that. And there's this thing called the protein leverage hypothesis. And it's basically that we will be hungry and we will keep eating until we fulfill our protein requirement needs. So basically I would not suggest as a long-term thing, doing fasting and puritarianism together, I would only do it as like a short thing. Yeah. And I can talk about the MCT oil and the exercise, but what are your thoughts, Barry?

Barry Conrad

Yes. This is a big question and also so many thoughts, but first of all, Camilla, thanks for sharing that. It's a big story. Thanks for the support for the podcast as well. The fact that fasting has brought you clarity and energy after that sort of journey is a huge win, but I would definitely agree with Melanie in saying that combining IF with just fruit solely, it's not a great strategy because you're just not getting the nutrients that you need, you know, and I mean, I would suggest balancing that with some greens, some seeds. If you don't like meat, try protein from tofu, eggs, fish maybe, but I don't think you can't really sustain a long life, in my opinion, on just fruit. And also one thing to keep in mind is that if you're eating mainly fruit as well, you're going to spike your insulin so much, which potentially could make weight loss slower potentially. If you're just having fruit over the long term because your body does adapt. Yeah, great. The yoga, the cycling is great. That's awesome. But I'm 100% on the protein train here. Like protein is so important because skeletal muscle is such a huge important factor in terms of like having longevity. You can't just I don't want to see you withering away. So make sure you get your protein in. That's what I would say.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, we're definitely on the same page. And I think a lot of times people, especially doing like veganism or especially like fruititarianism, like if they're getting cravings and bingy and everything, it can be hard to see that it's because you're just not getting enough nourishment, you know, like you can think it's because oh, like I'm just weak or I crave these junk foods, but there's a lot of magic if you get in enough protein in your diet.

Barry Conrad

100%. One thing that I would say is when I'm having particularly, at the moment, I'm experimenting more with smoked salmon for my protein sauce just to change it up. But generally, I have with smoked salmon that is around for 200 grams of smoked salmon that has 40 grams of protein for that. In one sitting, I can get that. With ground beef, I have about 42 grams for the same amount. When I have chicken breast and ground beef, I get full. I can eat a lot of meat for sure, but I definitely feel satiated. The only thing that I can put that down to is the satiation that comes from hitting the protein that you need. I don't get that when I'm just snacking or having lots of carbs solely. I'll just keep eating and keep eating and keep eating because your body hasn't got what it needs. Please, please look at the protein. That would take you more.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I agree so much. And then for her question about the MCT oil, which is I didn't realize that we were answering two questions about this, but so she said she uses it to break her fast and she wants to know, should she basically take it, like have it before exercising? Okay, wait. If after drinking the oil, so like have MCT oil and then exercise or exercise and then have the oil. So I would want to know like why you're having the oil. Like is it just for calories? Like what is it for your metabolism? Like what is the purpose of having it? I would not have it before exercise because there's, I think there's a lot of benefits to fasted exercise. And if you are taking a lot of MCT oil before exercise, you're just going to be burning the MCT oil rather than, especially if like weight loss is a goal of yours, which she said it is, you want to be tapping into your body fat, not just running off of the oil you just had. So if weight loss is a goal, I would definitely, I would have it later. Not, I would have it in your eating window, not before exercising. What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad

I would agree with that. One thing to keep in mind is that there's a train of thought out there where people feel afraid to exercise without something in their system, whether that's a banana, whether it's fat, or whether it's something. So I'm wondering, because she hasn't been fasting for a long, long time, that that might be a possibility, because you actually don't need that chameleon. Because remember, in the fasted set, there's plenty of glycogen for you to use up there. There's energy there, and there's plenty of fat that we're carrying. You don't need to take anything else to exercise. And I exercise as a six-foot-tall, 80kg male fasted. I'm not withered. I've got lots of muscle, and I don't eat anything. I have black coffee that's about it. So I would definitely say, you don't need the MCTL, and I wonder if that's something you've been told that you just need. Let me just have this little something to help me. You don't need it. Your body's got everything that it needs inside.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so glad you brought that up. It's so true. It is like a fear. It's like, I guess people are scared of that they're gonna run out of energy. Like I'm not, you know, but it's like once you start doing it, you realize that you can, you know, tap into your body fat stores and we carry so much energy on our body, just waiting to be tapped into. And especially if you have something like coffee or tea, you know, to have that caffeine and polyphenols and such help you, you know, tap into those body fat stores. Yeah, you can do it.

Barry Conrad

You can do it, Camilla.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome!

Barry Conrad

And we'd love to hear from you if you changed anything after hearing this. We'd love to hear back from you.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, please let us know! Okay, so we're like playing around with the format of the show and we always feature a restaurant on the show and we've decided we're going to try out having it at the end because then it's like we're breaking our fast after talking about all the fasting stuff and like we just talked about we are all about food on this show. So Barry, the restaurant I picked for us today is actually my favorite restaurant in Atlanta. Which is why I picked it.

Barry Conrad

Hold on for one second. You know what? I was actually thinking, the last episode listeners, I was actually thinking, I said to Melanie, if we went on like a food tour, she'll only come for a day. And then in my head, I was thinking, but if it was Atlanta, she'd come. So hello, now you've chosen Atlanta restaurant. So perfect.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, if it was Atlanta?

Barry Conrad

then you'd definitely be there.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, yes. So guess who's got to come to Atlanta?

Barry Conrad

Yours truly. Yep.

Melanie Avalon

for more than a day, for more than a day. So why are the rules different for me? Oh, the rules aren't different, but there's, you make your own rules. So, but my rules are one day, which we didn't talk about this on the show yet, because it's going to be way in the past when it happened by the time this airs. But, um, I went for one day to Vegas for the biohack yourself premiere, which actually was really, really incredible. Um, and I highly recommend people check it out. It's a documentary on Amazon prime and it has all the people in it. Like all the biohacking people are, are in it. And I, I was so honored. They actually invited me to host on the right carpet. So I got to interview a lot of really cool people. I got to meet people in person. I never met like Ben Azati. I was excited. I got to meet Aggie who I found on the show. Got to interview Del Big Tree, who he's actually a really big deal. He, he leads the make America healthy again movement. And he works with RFK. Yeah, it was really cool. It was fun.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. Congrats, Mel. Can I see it? Is it when does it come out on Amazon Prime?

Melanie Avalon

it's out now. We'll put a link to it in the show notes and no, you won't, you won't see me because I was just at the like the premiere thing and this is the actual documentary. I got to see, I literally, I think there's so many friends there, like so many people I've had on the show. The people I listed before were people I actually interviewed, but I got to meet in real life. Well, I know Dave Asprey, so I got to see him. I got to meet the founder of Viva Ray's who I've had on my show. I got to meet, I got to, I saw Sean Wells, literally just so many people. I, Ian Clark, who I just interviewed the other day, you would have loved it, Barry. We should go to something like that sometime. I'd love that. It'd be awesome. So in any case, so the restaurant I picked, like I said, it's neck and neck because I have two favorite restaurants in Atlanta, but this is my all time favorite and it's called Atlas. It's at the St Regis and something really cool about it. So it has a Michelin star. I knew it would because the Michelin guy just came for the first time two years ago to Atlanta, which was really exciting. And I was like, I know Atlas is going to get one and it did. And what's really cool about it is the restaurant itself, there's all this art and they actually have to change the art every, I don't know how many days, like how many months or so. They have to continually change it. And the reason they have to change it is because they have so much art in that room worth so much money that it would, they would be a museum if they didn't change it out. Isn't that cool?

Barry Conrad

That's so cool.

Melanie Avalon

I think it's probably complicated to be a museum, so the art changes. But they have really cool museum type stuff, obviously. I went there for my birthday three years ago, maybe. So the menu is, I guess we can just pick from the tavern menu because they have a tasting menu but we can't actually see what that is because it changes. So we'll just have to go off of there.

Barry Conrad

This looks good.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so they do have a chef's tasting menu, but it says full table participation required. That's like so scary.

Barry Conrad

Well, have you met me? I'm pretty much a full table when it comes to food. I'll eat for like five people.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so we'll go. I'll be like, we're getting the chef's tasting menu. The full table is berry. And then I'll sit over there.

Barry Conrad

That's your buddy.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, actually, you know who I went to? I went twice. I went with Jean Valacara, who is the he has biohackers magazine and I had him on my show as well. But I love biohackers magazine. He's incredible. He's called his handle is cyber gains on Instagram. Yeah, he does calisthenics. He's like, so he's so impressive, like, with what he does. But he came to Atlanta and we went into Atlas once he had to come in town for like some other like conference things. So we went there. Okay, so looking at the menu, what would you get to share?

Barry Conrad

This all looks incredible, actually. I would say I'm gravitating towards large seafood platter for sure. I'd probably eat most of it, but we could definitely share that.

Melanie Avalon

features caviar, king crab, oysters, shrimp, crudo, and main lobster. I feel like we have to do that because the other things are oysters or small seafood platters. So we'll just get the large one. And I would eat, I would eat everything on that. Wait, what is crudo? I should know this.

Barry Conrad

So crudo, it's sort of the way, like when you have kingfish crudo or not, it's just the way it's cured. So I'm guessing it's going to be like kingfish or some sort of fish, but cured in that.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, it means raw.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I would definitely actually when I went I think I had I actually this is one of the locations where I Had this is do you know what this was berry? This was where I learned the term savory dessert because I Had salmon as the appetizer. This is when I went with jean and then for dessert I asked if I could have salmon and they were so accommodating and then I said I was like do people do this or like It's just like a weird and then the server said to me. Yeah, sometimes people have savory desserts And I was like, oh my goodness. I am adopting that term

Barry Conrad

That tracks, that makes sense and that's it's good that it's a full circle moment back to your favorite restaurant. That's good.

Melanie Avalon

So they also have an incredible wine list, but in any case, okay, so to share and then the cheese cart, would you be having some from the cheese cart, Barry?

Barry Conrad

Of course, like that was my second thing. We definitely need to have that select, like we need to get like a selection. Cause that's something we can pick at. I love cheese and crackers. I love it so much. So we have to do that.

Melanie Avalon

So I have good and bad news. Okay, what? What's the good news first? Good news is I love cheese. Like in heaven, I probably just, it's probably like made of cheese. The bad news is cheese for me, it's like the thing, I just can't have it. I like it too much. And cheese has queso-morphenes in it, which are, it's basically like morphine, but in food form. And the reason it has that is because I'm not trying to scare people away from cheese, but the reason it has that is to, do you know, do you know the reason why it has that? You tell me. It's to help the child. So milk has queso-morphenes to help the child bond to the mother.

Barry Conrad

Oh, well.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, isn't that crazy? So basically like mother's milk has these compounds that make the baby like be addicted to the mom.

Barry Conrad

That's kinda crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and depending on your constitution, some people have more like receptors for that and react to that differently. So for me, like it, if I have one bite of cheese, it feels like a drug like I, so I just have to abstain because I could just like eat cheese forever.

Barry Conrad

What about like a morsel, like one, one little bite and that's it.

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. You have one bite and it's like, then you're just stuck wanting more. Like, I'd rather just not have it.

Barry Conrad

We'll all have the cheese. We can get it.

Melanie Avalon

I love it so much that I would love you to have it and you can like give me tasting notes and yeah. So we will get the cheese cart.

Barry Conrad

Now, do you like do you like heavier? Is that something that you like?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, okay. I am so excited to talk about this. So I had not had caviar until semi recently. And what's funny is I didn't realize it was caviar until after I ate it. I was at another birthday dinner at one of my, another restaurant I love here, which is called Kevin Rathbun's Steakhouse. And something came with caviar. And then I ate it. And I was like, this is so good. And I was like, Oh, this is caviar. Like after I ate it.

Barry Conrad

That's funny. That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon

It did not taste like what I thought it would taste like. What did you think it would taste like? I don't know, but it basically just tasted like salt.

Barry Conrad

Well, did you have it on a blini or did you have it on like, what did you have it with?

Melanie Avalon

It was a condiment, like it came with the tartare, I think, but it was like squishy and like little, little bit like seafood, but like salty. I loved it. And like fatty. Do you like caviar?

Barry Conrad

I love it. And so I'm throwing the ball to you, which, cause I'm having most of the cheese, which caveat would you choose?

Melanie Avalon

Let's get the la grande caviar selection, then we get everything. Wait, how does that compare to the tasting flight?

Barry Conrad

No, that's not enough.

Melanie Avalon

What's the difference between, it's the same thing though, with condiments. With condiments, is that the difference?

Barry Conrad

And have you tried Blinnies before? Have you tried that?

Melanie Avalon

No. What is that?

Barry Conrad

So I actually make these from scratch when I'm having caviar or even with smoked salmon. It's basically like, think of like a miniature, like a miniature pancake, like really small.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, okay. Yeah, I do. So so I would actually I personally would order just the tasting flight, but I feel like for the table me and you we would we want to get the grand caviar selection so that you can have the condiments and the Bellini that you make at home. Wait, I have a quick question about caviar. Do you buy caviar like at the grocery store? Because once I had it, then I when I would go to Whole Foods, I was like, oh, I should like buy some caviar. And I was like, Oh, this is this is confusing. There's like so many options. And the price goes from like expensive to like crazy expensive. I like couldn't bring myself to buy it.

Barry Conrad

I have an occasion for caviar but at the store but i would definitely go for if you're gonna do it like you know do for an occasion. But you can definitely buy it gets it gets pricey though.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, maybe I should, oh my goodness, maybe I should have a caviar line in the future. Maybe that'll be my first food. Yum. If you could have, last quick question, if you could have a berry Conrad food line, what would be your first food?

Barry Conrad

Do you know what not just food i would say you know because i love spicy i'd maybe do something like a hot sauce or a. So like a hot seasoning first before like a food because that's something that i could make sense because it's something you can put lots of different things that's probably something i would do.

Melanie Avalon

I'm making a note of that, that you like hot sauce stuff.

Barry Conrad

I do. I love it. I love Spicy.

Melanie Avalon

We should do a product collab, like a food collab. A wine, maybe? Yeah. Okay, what would you get to start? Oh, I know what I would get. This is like, oh, whoa, there's two things I want. Oh wait, there's three. Oh crap, actually I want everything. What do you want?

Barry Conrad

Kompachikrudur and the Wagyu Tatar.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I want the wagyu tartar, the crudo, and the hen's egg. I really want the hen's egg. Oh wait, is it not a hen's egg? Is it actually crawfish?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I think it's just called hens egg, but I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I take that back I want the same thing as you

Barry Conrad

Okay, in that case, let's get the garden solid like to kind of pad things out just to be there, you know, there's some, you know, greens there to look good.

Melanie Avalon

and take pictures for Instagram.

Barry Conrad

For the photo, exactly. You gotta bounce it out.

Melanie Avalon

And I'll have the crude out and the wagyu as well as will you.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, what would you have for your, okay, not the entree, I'm going to say your main event. That's the main dish.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Are we skipping? Is pasta like, I'm confused. There's like a pasta section. Is that like a, is that a course? I'm skipping that course. Do you want one of those?

Barry Conrad

I feel like that's a main thing too. I feel like I put pasta and the entrepreneur sections into one thing. Like they're all like main things.

Melanie Avalon

So here's what I love, friends. You can get, for your main thing, we always have the language translation issue here, but for the main thing, you can get a pasta, an entree, or an entree for two. So basically, I'm always wanting to get two entrees, so I can just get the entree for two for one, for me. This is like incredible, but you can have some too if you want.

Barry Conrad

So what would you have?

Melanie Avalon

I think I would get the Dover Soul entree for two, but how big is that fish that is for two?

Barry Conrad

They'd be massive.

Melanie Avalon

That's what I want. It's probably like a it's like probably a whole fish. Do you like fish when it's in its whole fish form? I love it

Barry Conrad

I do. I love it. Some people get grossed out by seeing the eyes and seeing the whole thing. I love it.

Melanie Avalon

I love it when it even has like the brain in it still.

Barry Conrad

What? I was expecting that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, because I remember the first time I had it like that, the guy I was I was with was like daring me to eat the brain. I was like, Oh, no, I like I want to eat the brain. This is not hard for me to do. Although it actually didn't taste as good as I thought it would. I thought it was gonna taste like good, like bone marrow. And it actually tasted like not that good. And I was like, Oh, actually, nevermind. But I wasn't scared is the point.

Barry Conrad

Have you fished before like yourself? Like, have you gone fishing and caught something and ate it?

Melanie Avalon

I have. Are you impressed? Are you surprised? Growing up, we lived on a pond. We would fish. We never ate that fish, but we would fish. And then in Florida, we would always go on these fishing things where you hire a person who takes you fishing, and then you would cook the fish later. But oh, actually, so I'm halfway answering this. At that time, I was not eating fish, so I didn't actually eat the fish, but we did cook it.

Barry Conrad

Wow.

Melanie Avalon

How about you?

Barry Conrad

Oh yeah we went fishing a lot when i was a kid so i do love the whole thing and it takes better when you catch it something about that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Although now I don't think I could actually eat any of the fish that I catch because of the mercury issue. Unless I catch salmon. And sole I believe is low. That's why I was picking it.

Barry Conrad

I might have to have like a bite of the soul, just like an immortal to try it.

Melanie Avalon

And what would you get for your entree?

Barry Conrad

I would get two things. I would get the West Home Wagyu and I'd also get the Hunter's Chicken.

Melanie Avalon

That's perfect because I also wanted those. So can I have a bite? Of course. How are you cooking your Wagyu?

Barry Conrad

So it's got to be medium rare, but more on the rare side.

Melanie Avalon

I can tolerate that.

Barry Conrad

I'm not going to do blue, Melanie, I'm not going to have just

Melanie Avalon

You're not doing blue? No blue?

Barry Conrad

No.

Melanie Avalon

someday. When we have our meal together, will you eat blue? Like if I order it blue, will you like try it?

Barry Conrad

Oh yeah I'm not like I've I'm not scared of having it's just like I enjoy like a little bit more like heat on the surface but I definitely love like rare for sure I definitely do it to the blue.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect, okay. And then for dessert, what would you get?

Barry Conrad

Oh man, this is hard. Okay. The FM Rocha, which is vanilla hazelnut chocolate, and I would also get the Baba R. Rom, which is an aged spirit selection. That sounds pretty appetizing to me. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

I would get a repeat of whichever appetizer I liked the most out of the caviar, crab, oyster, shrimp, crudo, and lobster. For dessert, actually, let me take that back. I probably would go like the shrimp, lobster, or crab route.

Barry Conrad

One day, hopefully I'll get to see you like have like one bite of like a cake or something with me.

Melanie Avalon

That is your mission in life, and I respect that.

Barry Conrad

I just want to see your reaction to it just when you have it.

Melanie Avalon

It's not, yeah. Would you get any of their seasonal or signature cocktails? The beverage menu.

Barry Conrad

You know what? The Southern Passion looks pretty good. I'll try that.

Melanie Avalon

Although it's perfect because we're in the south.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, you know.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, on theme I would get so I actually am friends with the Psalm here. His name is Maxwell. Shout out to Maxwell. And he knows my tastes and how intense I am and that I only drink organic low alcohol, like fruity wines. So from Europe. So and again, Atlas has an incredible wine list, like the book is just overwhelming. It's like, it's one of those like books, you know, like pages and pages and pages. So I would have him pick something.

Barry Conrad

Also, I have to maybe zoom out for one more second. I'll have that as like the first, I'll have that with my starter. And then with the mains, I'll have my, I'll have the golden margarita.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. You got to feature the the berry margarita moment

Barry Conrad

Yeah, because that looks good. Lime, egg white, that's to own. That's that's that looks really good.

Melanie Avalon

And we could take beforehand a shot of what we talked about last time, Z-biotics.

Barry Conrad

Exactly. We'll take the shot and then enjoy the night.

Melanie Avalon

the probiotic genetically engineered to help you break down the toxic byproducts of alcohol in your stomach. I highly recommend it and it is part of my protocol every single time I go out. So for that, listeners can go to melaniavalon.com slash zbiotics, z-b-i-o-t-i-c-s and use the coupon code melaniavalon to get 10% off. Awesome. Well, I feel good. So friends, takeaway is that with fasting, you can have your cake and eat it too, unless you just look at it like me. But the point is you can indulge in all the things that make you feel good and happy in your eating window and still get all the benefits of fasting. So we love it.

Barry Conrad

We love it. And you know what, I was actually just thinking as we were doing this week's restaurant is, I hope that when we do the restaurant at the end, that if it works with your window, your eating window listeners, that you can start snacking away and enjoying it. Like while we talk about food, that'd be really fun. That'd be fun for me to listen to and eat.

Melanie Avalon

Oh yeah, or go look at the menu and see what you would order.

Barry Conrad

Or both, and or. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Love it. Love it. All right. Well, this was so, so fun. Friends, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at iapodcast.com or you can go to iapodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is berry underscore Conrad. And our together one is I have podcast. And yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

Thanks for tuning in everyone and we'll catch you next week.

Melanie Avalon

Yep, this was so fun. I will talk to you next week. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Feb 17

Episode 409 – Special Guest Kara Collier, Continuous Glucose Monitors Q&A, Ideal Blood Sugar Levels, Berberine & Apple Cider Vinegar Timing, Reducing Blood Glucose, Sleep, Stress, Diet & Exercise, Adding Fat Vs. Protein, Blood Sugar & Heart Health, and More!

Welcome to Episode 409 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SPECIAL GUEST

Kara Collier is the co-founder and VP of Clinical Operations at Nutrisense, one of America’s fastest-growing wellness-tech startups. She is a Forbes 30 under 30 recipient, frequent podcast guest & conference speaker. Kara has made it her mission to help others reach optimal health using modern technology & expert coaching. Kara is a leading authority on continuous glucose monitoring (CGM) technology, particularly in non-diabetics, for health optimization, disease prevention, and reversing metabolic dysfunction. Kara is a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist (RDN), Licensed Dietitian/Nutritionist (LDN), and Certified Nutrition Support Clinician (CNSC).

Website | Nutrisense IG | Kara Collier IG

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

NUTRISENSE CONTINUOUS GLUCOSE MONITOR

Get $50 off with code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm.

ONESKIN

Founded by a team of all female scientists, OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company, with products shown to reduce your skin's biological age! OneSkin addresses skin health at the molecular level, targeting the root causes of aging so skin behaves, feels, and appears younger. It’s time to get started with your new face, eye, and body routine at a discounted rate today! Get 15% off OneSkin with the code IFPODCAST at https://www.oneskin.co.

MD LOGIC

Get 10% off MD Logic's Health Marine Collagen with code ifpodcast at ifpodcast.com/collagen.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 409 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 409 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I am here today with a very special guest. It's somebody who's been on the show before, and it's for a topic that we talk about all the time and which has a radical effect on people's health and wellness and fasting and all the things. And so that topic is continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. And friends, like I was saying, you're probably familiar because I talk about them all the time, but continuous glucose monitors, which we will talk about, actually give you a picture of your blood sugar levels on a sort of like a 24-7 basis for quite a few days when you do a session of one. And it is so eye-opening because it actually gives you an in-real-time picture of how your food is affecting you, how your fasting is affecting you, all the things. It can be a game changer, especially if you're trying to just figure out where you're at with your health or if you're trying to break through a weight loss plateau or just really optimize everything you're doing when it comes to food and diet and lifestyle. So I am here with Kara Collier. She is a fabulous human being and the co-founder of Nutrasense, which is a platform which makes CGMs accessible to everyday people. And by everyday people, I mean you don't need a doctor's prescription in order to get one. And then Nutrasense also comes with an app which helps you actually analyze and understand the data and it is just so empowering, so helpful. And so Kara, thank you so much for being here.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to chat.

Melanie Avalon

So, I was telling you before, I have quite a few listener questions for you, but before diving into those, I actually have a personal question because I think last time we came on the show was a while ago and I feel like within that, well, it wasn't that long ago, but in any case, in that time period, I feel AI really like took off, like chat GBT, because I feel like there was like a pre-AI time, I mean, AI's been around for a while, but like it like rapidly escalated. And so I was just thinking before we started recording with Nutrisense and everything you're doing with CGMs, like the future of it and what you're doing now, has that had a big effect on the company and the future and everything that you want to do with CGMs?

Kara Collier

Yeah, that's a great question. So much has changed. I think we spoke maybe like a little over a year ago, when you reflect back of like all the things that change in a year, both in terms of technology advancements, but also just the industry, like a lot has changed within cgms and within our company. But with AI specifically, yeah, it is going to make analyzing, I mean, it already is making analyzing large amounts of data, super simple and easy, which is great for both businesses that function on data as kind of the main component. So now instead of just having maybe cgm data, it's going to be a lot easier for us to plug and play other forms of data and put it all together and give you something meaningful. And then it's also going to make it easier for the user, you know, we have the easy ability for you to export every single data point in that kind of like five minute intervals. And then you can kind of if you're savvy enough, you can use simple free AI tools to manipulate that data if you have certain things you want to look for or see that we aren't necessarily providing for you. So I think it just makes it a lot easier to use data for answers, because you don't have to be an analyst anymore to be able to kind of use these tools. So as a company, it's kind of helping us make it easier for making things digestible for people. And it's also helping us to make sure that our human support, which we're actually leaning on even more now in the forefront of AI is still having that human component, but it's helping to kind of augment them and give them the tools and support they need to do their job well.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's really interesting. So do you think you're temporarily leaning on them more or do you think ultimately, you know, it'll be all AI providing that support?

Kara Collier

Yeah, it's hard to predict what exactly will happen and what the gaps are going to be and how much adoption there will be across the board. You know, you still ask the average person on the street if they use chat GBT on a daily basis and most people actually are not. Like it's still really underutilized on just like an average person, but we've actually leaned more on the human component because of a demand from customers. Recently, you know, we used to just provide chat support access to our dietitian so that you could ask questions. And now we do kind of our long telehealth sessions that are reimbursed by insurance. And that really came from the demand of people wanting to turn these data insights into real behavior change. So it's kind of connecting that dot of how do I now turn this into a habit I can stick to? How do I, you know, adjust things when my routine is different? And for some people, I think it just depends on your personality type AI might solve that problem for you. And we're happy to kind of support that person in that way, where I think there is a whole separate group of people that need that human connection in order to reach their goals. So I think it really just depends on your personality type and like what motivates you.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so interested by this, and it's also interesting that you point that out about, you know, not everybody using chat GPT and things like that. Actually, yesterday, the guest I had on the show, I just like brought up chat GPT, I was talking about it, and they actually hadn't, like, they didn't know what I was talking about. And I was like, Oh, like, because I'm so saturated in it, it's like, I use it so much. I forget that everybody's not using it all the time.

Kara Collier

I know I'm currently trying to get my mom to use it more for like basic things. And it's, it's an interesting experience to walk through somebody who's like the learning curve is like, it's not intuitive to them in the same way of like how I would use it for all these different applications. But as soon as like I pointed out, she's like, Oh, that's amazing, but wouldn't have thought of it herself. So I think there's a lot of people like her.

Melanie Avalon

I use it for for everything. It's so it's so helpful. It expands beyond just things like this, but the entirety of health care like will we always want a final human, you know, overseeing everything, especially like surgeries and procedures and records. Do you think there's a future where we're comfortable? I know you're talking about personality types, but do you think there's a future where it's all just automated?

Kara Collier

I think so. I think a lot is going to change. I think we're at the start of exponential change, you know, where it's, we're at that bottom of that exponential curve where I think it's going to be almost, it's going to be very challenging to even imagine what things are going to look like 10 years from now. Cause I think they're going to be so different than even what has changed, you know, in the past 10 years. So I think everything is going to look different eventually. I just don't know when that will happen. Like what is the pace of which this is going to occur in a, which we're all very like normalized and we trust some of these systems. Cause the other thing is, you know, right now there's still the issue of kind of the quality of data you put in is what you get out, but it's, that's going to be less of an issue as things just get more and more intelligent. I think there's going to be time where we trust data a lot more than humans.

Melanie Avalon

It's so interesting. And on a similar note, so the actual technology itself, and it's interesting when I was asking for questions, one of the first comments I got, it actually wasn't a question, but it was a clarification, which I find really helpful from Lisa Marie. And she said that she's a type one diabetic here. She said, please know that CGM tests the interstitial fluid and not the actual blood like blood glucose monitors do. I've heard other podcasts mistake this. It will be interesting to see what questions pop up here. And then Stacy wanted to know how accurate are CGM's. And the reason I'm leaning off of both of those is kind of tying it into this concept of the evolution of everything in the future. So the actual technology of the CGM, because like Lisa Marie was saying, it's not actually measuring our blood sugar levels. It's measuring this interstitial fluid. Is the technology itself, like has it evolved or changed? Is that still how it works? Do you think it will change? And then as far as the accuracy, like how does that tie into the evolution and how the technology might be changing?

Kara Collier

The, that is correct. So the, the CGM they are measuring your glucose in your interstitial fluid, which is just kind of like the fluid in between your cells. So you can think of it as kind of like classic diffusion that we learned in science class. So when your glucose changes first in the bloodstream and then diffuses into the interstitial fluid. So the biggest difference between the values in your blood glucose level and your interstitial fluid is that there's usually a little bit of a delay as it diffuses and the more intense the change. So if you suddenly dump in a ton of glucose into your bloodstream, the faster it's going to diffuse into the interstitial fluid. So the more rapidly it's changing kind of the quicker you're going to see that appear, but if it's a slow change, it will diffuse slowly. So it is an, and one thing that is important to think about though, is that that glucose in our interstitial fluid is still like, you know, it's a part of our body. Like that is like real glucose that is also important to know. So it's not that it's irrelevant. It's just that it's a slight difference from your blood levels. This is especially important for type one diabetics, which are the, you know, the patient population, the audience that these CGM were first created for, and that they're most critical for this audience because they cannot, you know, they type one, type one diabetics do not make insulin. And so they rely on exogenous, you know, injected insulin in order to maintain glucose levels and to live and survive. So those minor fluctuations are really important to be on top of in a type one diabetic. And their glucose swings are much more dramatic typically because, you know, that normal process that a non-type one diabetic kind of naturally has. So their swings might go from 200 to 50 in the matter of, you know, 30 minutes. It's especially important in that group, whereas if you're a non-diabetic, the minor differences, it is important to kind of know that absolute value, but it's the trends and information that you're gaining from like the way your glucose is changing. And that is most useful. So coming to the question then of accuracy and precision, what tends to be very correct, so to speak with the CGM is the precision. So the amount that glucose is fluctuating at different times. So if you compare your overnight average on your Sunday versus Monday, kind of how you're seeing how much those are different between two days is very accurate in that precision. But what might be off is the absolute number. So it could be reading that your glucose is 90 right now, and then jumped up to 120 when in reality it was 80 and jumped up to 110. So we do allow people to calibrate in our app, which means if you know your glucose at that moment, because you recently got a fasted glucose level or your finger pricking is 80, you can adjust it to match that. And then you can kind of see that in real time, a little bit more accurately. But if you don't have that number and you aren't calibrating, you can see that my glucose jumped 30 points and it took four hours for it to come back down to what it was before I ate.

Kara Collier

You can see those trends and variability in your glucose levels, whether the number is exactly on or not.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Okay. So many, I have so many thoughts and questions. I'm just trying to think in all the conversations I've had about CGM's. I don't remember learning that about if it's a bigger change or a faster change that you see it faster on the CGM. That's, that's really, that makes sense though. Okay. Some, some questions there. Well you mentioned just to provide some clarity for listeners about the numbers they actually should be looking for. Andrea had a really good question. She said, what is the optimal blood sugar spike for a given meal? Should your blood sugar never go over X amount or is it more about how quickly your blood sugar returns to normal? I heard someone say your blood sugar should basically stay between 80 to 130 no matter what you've eaten. So can we, um, just kind of clarify for listeners, what numbers they actually should be looking for?

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. And I love this question because I think there is a lot of misinformation around this. The first myth I always like to point out that I think we've discussed is that like an absolutely flat glucose line is not necessarily the end goal. Like zero variability in your glucose is not superior to normal amount of variability. So if your glucose moves because you just ate, that is normal physiological response to eating. But we want to make sure that it's moving in a way that is not too high and it doesn't take too long to get back to normal. And then we also want to put it into context. And this is where kind of either AI detection to put it into context for you or a human to kind of point this out and talk through it is important. Because if you eat something that is just protein and fat, I'm not expecting your glucose to go up too much if there isn't any carbohydrates in it. So it might be ideal if your glucose was starting at 80, if it goes up to a 90 or 100, and then comes back down to 80 within two hours, that's pretty expected. But if you have some carbohydrates, let's say you have half a cup of sweet potato with that same meal, it might be completely normal for it to go up to 120, 130, but then come back down within two hours still. So you do want to take into context like what did I eat to make sure that it's an expected response. But at a high level, we really don't want glucose to go above 140 in an optimal manner. And we want it to kind of come back down to those pre-meal values within two hours of eating. But as I mentioned, if you're following a low carbohydrate diet, if it's just kind of mostly protein and fats, then I really don't expect it to go much above 120, kind of at any point in time with meals. But one last clarification I'll point out is that there's a difference between what is optimal for good long-term health and kind of what is the goal range, which is below that 140, and being metabolically unhealthy. So there are responses when I look at someone's meal response that I would say, this concerns me that maybe there's some metabolic dysfunction, potentially some insulin resistance. And then there are responses where I'm like, this makes sense given the context, but it's not a healthy or ideal response. So to give two examples, you might eat a piece of steak and half of a sweet potato, and your glucose goes up to 140. It takes four hours to come back down to normal. And it's like, I wouldn't have expected it to go that high, and I would have expected it to come back down sooner. This could be something to look into, get your insulin level tested, kind of try some other foods. It might not be a good sign of normal metabolic response. And then there's somebody who maybe drinks an entire Gatorade and their glucose spikes up to 150 and comes back down in an hour. And that response doesn't indicate to me that you have metabolic dysfunction, but it doesn't mean we want to see that response because it's not necessarily good for your body. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, that completely does. And actually, so to that point, and so this is me asking, and then Andrea actually had a follow-up question that is kind of similar. But my question would be, if we're not expecting to see that many fluctuations on like a low-carb diet, a keto diet, maybe even a carnivore diet, is there benefit to using a CGM on that sort of diets? Or is it really just for people who are eating carbs? And then I can tie in Andrea's second question, but maybe I'll start with that.

Kara Collier

Yeah. I definitely think there is still benefit. Usually people who are following a lower carbohydrate diet don't need to wear them for as long to get some insights, but some examples of things you might learn are the impact of meal timing. So sometimes everyone kind of responds differently, but eating later at night versus earlier in the morning, like how does your glucose respond? And then there's also giving you a better picture of what your average glucose levels are because a hemoglobin A1C, which is trying to capture your average glucose, isn't always super accurate. And so this wearing a CGM is another way to kind of see at a broader view, what are your average glucose levels overall, which is really important for overall health. I mean, kind of seeing like, does it come back down to lower values while I'm sleeping when I'm fasted? And then that's kind of the third component is seeing the fluctuations in your fasted glucose levels, which can be impacted by a lot of factors outside of nutrition and carbohydrates. So often we'll see people who are under a lot of stress and those fasted glucose levels are really high, which brings their average glucose levels up and they're not eating any carbohydrates. And the thing they really have to work on is stress management. That could be a similar type of thing for sleep quality or sleep quantity. So there's all these other variables that can impact your glucose levels that a CGM just provides much quicker and more meaningful insight into that are worth at least assessing, even if you're following a low carbohydrate diet. So maybe you wear one sensor for 14 days and everything looks good. You might be good to go and maybe you only wear one once a year to kind of check in where somebody with more of a variability in their diet might need to wear them a couple more to even kind of understand that baseline.

Melanie Avalon

So that actually does tie in really well to Andrea's second question because, so basically she's trying to figure out why her fasting blood sugar is consistently around 100, whereas like she said two years ago, it was always low around in the 80s. And she says she's been taking berberine for a long time. She says she's tried eating higher protein. She avoids processed foods, seed oils, refined sugars and grains. She takes a bajillion supplements. And so she's struggling to figure out why her fasting blood sugar is high. And her two questions here are, one, can high protein cause a higher fasting blood sugar somehow? She said she feels healthy otherwise. Good energy, good muscle mass, very little visceral fat. And then her second question, it's not really a question, but I'm turning it into a question. She said, I'm considering getting a CGM again, but I, oh, this is just a note. She says she thought that the numbers were consistently about 15 millimole difference compared to her finger stick. And since her main concern is now her fasting blood sugar and not the spikes, will it be helpful? So, and her fasting insulin was 4.7 and she's considering metformin. But to recap the questions here, so I guess there's three questions. One, which is what is similar to what we were just talking about, if she's just concerned about her fasting blood sugar, not the spikes per se, would a CGM be helpful there? Maybe we can start with that question.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I still think it's very insightful because you can start to see trends a little bit easier than the finger pricks. And like I said, in our app and in some apps, you can calibrate and some you cannot. So it sort of depends. But if you know, okay, it's consistently 15 points higher, you can kind of just do that mental math in your head that, okay, it's reading 115, but it's actually 100. But it's useful to get that sense of what days are my fasting glucose even higher or lower and like what is driving those changes potentially. Typically, we don't see people have the same exact pattern every single day. And to that point, then kind of bleeding into potentially a second question, is there are other variables that we tend to look at really closely if it seems like the fasting glucose is the thing that is driving up. So I mentioned stress tends to be the top thing for people usually if they have a higher fasting glucose level, but everything else looks good, because that kind of chronic cortisol pulsing that chronic elevated cortisol is going to stimulate the liver to be making glucose. And that tends to drive up our fasted glucose levels. So sort of assessing stress levels, and kind of any form of stress is a good place to start. The second thing tends to be sleep quality and quantity. So kind of looking at that and making sure that you're getting adequate sleep, because that can definitely impact your fasted glucose level. And lastly, in terms of just really common factors for people is the timing of your last meal. Some people seem to be much more sensitive to this than others. There seems to be like a genetic variance to how sensitive you are. But for some people, if you eat later at night, it will bleed all the way into kind of the next day, next morning and impact your fasted glucose levels. So that's another thing to play around with. And as we've kind of mentioned, the benefit of the CGM is that you can experiment with something and get insight quickly. So you could try adjusting that meal timing and see what happens and pretty much assess within one day, if that is making any difference or not. Similarly with adding in a walk before bed or in the evening or after your dinner, you can have a very quick yes or no of what type of impact that had, which I think is one of the main benefits of the CGM is just that quicker learning feedback.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I could not agree more and it's hard to really emphasize just how profound it is until somebody's actually done it, but that in real time data and that really ability to see quick changes, I just think is so, so powerful. So her question about the protein, actually before that, I want to comment on the liver piece. I also love that you brought that up because I think a lot of people think fasting, you know, their fasted blood sugar level is primarily driven by like the food they just ate. But so much of it is the liver actually, you know, producing this glucose, which I think a lot of people don't realize. So her question about can high protein cause fasting blood sugar to be higher? Have you seen that with CGM's?

Kara Collier

Yeah. And to touch on the liver piece, just to emphasize that more, like your liver has unlimited ability to keep making glucose. Like there, there is no upper limit, you know, it's like you can keep making it and making it. Because I think a lot of people under emphasize the amount of stress they're under and how much of an impact that has, but related to protein. So this is something that I get asked quite often. And I have very rarely been able to see a direct link between, okay, we really increased your protein and we saw that fasted glucose go up or we really decreased your protein and we saw fasted, flat, fasted glucose levels drop. So I can't say with certainty, because I haven't done like a, you know, completely randomized controlled trial. But anecdotally, I haven't seen this to make a big impact. I think that the upper threshold of how much protein you have to eat in order for that to start impacting your glucose levels is pretty high and higher than what most people are doing. So it's not to say I don't think it exists. I just don't think it's a common variable that most people are probably needing to deal with. It can, you know, provide the substrates for your liver to make more glucose, as we've mentioned. But again, most of the time I don't, see this direct correlation and it's not usually something that I'm having people worry about too much. Usually I'm having people eat more protein than what they're currently doing.

Melanie Avalon

I tend to err on the side of encouraging more protein rather than less. And we've actually, especially when we have a new co-host now, but Vanessa Spina was our prior co-host and we talked about protein all the time on the show and it's still an ongoing debate. Like it's weird to me that we still don't know that there are still conflicting opinions about if you're eating excess protein, whether or not it becomes glucose or not. Like there's people still debate that.

Kara Collier

Yeah, they do.

Melanie Avalon

I'm like, how do we not know? I feel like this is testable.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I feel pretty good about recommending like higher protein is typically better. And there's like very rare instances where I'm like, that's a lot of protein you're eating. Like usually I'm like, yeah, more protein, please.

Melanie Avalon

It's shocking the amount of protein I eat, but I also don't add a lot to it. I don't think I could eat the amount of protein I eat and also have a ton of carbs or fat as well. This is a random question I just thought of. Have you seen, I'm trying to remember, I don't remember the brand or what it was called, but a company reached out to me and they were making an app that was supposed to show you your blood sugar levels, but it didn't actually test them. Do you have thoughts on that concept? I was very hesitant. I immediately just said no, because I was like, how does it know? Like you could be telling people wrong information.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I would definitely be skeptical of that. And that, that brings to a question I think you had earlier that I might not have finished with just like new technology with measuring glucose levels. What is being tested and I think has a lot of potential, but is not ready for like full market adoption consumer use is kind of detecting your glucose values through like optics and lasers. So, you know, similarly to kind of how we're detecting heart rates from like a wearable or like a watch. I think that there will certainly be a possibility where we'll be able to wear something like that, that is kind of able to detect the glucose levels like in from your, you know, your veins and your, your blood vessels. There's also the ability potentially to detect it in like your eyes. So the small amount of those tiny blood vessels that are in your eyes and kind of similar type of functionality. I haven't seen anything yet that has been that is credible and verified and ready for like market use. So I would say if you have something right now, like anybody out there, like they're seeing an ad for something, I would be skeptical, but I definitely think we're going to have much better technology in the future.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was going to circle back to that. I'm so glad you brought that up again at Nutrisense. Are you actively looking at expanding if there is new technology like that in the future, or I'm just curious about like the company in general. And actually related to that, Anna said, are they available over the counter yet? I had heard a like a rumor or a whisper that maybe that barrier was going to be broken anyways with CGMs. Do you know about all of that?

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. So from a company perspective, we don't make the hardware. We work with the companies who do make it. And then we do the software. So the app and then the services, the nutrition dietitian support on top of it. So we're always looking for like what, and we're not hardware specific, where we only work with, you know, one person, one type, we work with several different ones. And now we also have a better related to the over-the-counter option. We have a better what we call like BYOS, bring your own sensor, because they are available over the counter now. Oh, are they?

Melanie Avalon

Did I miss that?

Kara Collier

Yeah, so it's very recent change. So yes, they're available over the counter, which is a huge change in making them more affordable, more accessible. So we're working directly with those companies as well, to kind of integrate those sensors into our ecosystem to make it even cheaper to our customers as well. And from their perspective, they are still hardware manufacturers that don't really want to play too much in like the consumer side, even though now it's direct to consumer or the software side. So, you know, they're, they want to kind of like stick in that wheelhouse. So it works well to be able to either you can get the sensors directly from them and then use just our app in our dietitian services or kind of still get it through us, but using their hardware because it's continuing to make it cheaper and easier for everybody.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, when did that happen? Do you know?

Kara Collier

I think it was August or September.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, in the fall. Okay. I find it really interesting in the medical community in general, where the barriers are, and where they aren't. Like what we're like allowed access to, and what we're not. I just, I'm, I find it intriguing.

Kara Collier

It is. The whole thing has been interesting because, you know, it's in Europe, they've always been over the counter, same companies, same, you know, manufacturers are allowed to sell them in Europe over the counter. And then in the US, we just kind of, you know, had like an arbitrary rule, but they are still their cgms that they make for so like, you know, the Libre you're familiar with is still a prescription device for diabetics, technically. And then they have their over the counter variation, which has like certain, it has to be like a different sensor, technically, in order to get that approval. So there's still some weird rules and like, things that we're having to go through. But I think the whole landscape is changing. And we're only going to move towards more accessibility, cheaper prices, better technology as things continue to change.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Wow. That's really interesting about the, like the lasers or the eye. And I want to say non-invasive, but putting a CGM on for friends, if you've probably heard me talk about this before, some people can be intimidated because it, there is like a needle that sticks to your skin, but I promise you, you don't, you like don't even feel it. It's so easy to put on.

Kara Collier

Yeah, it's so easy. And if you do any sort of at home finger pricks, that's way worse just like to put it into context way worse.

Melanie Avalon

There's like no comparison.

Kara Collier

Yeah, I hate finger picking now.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, as far as actually lowering blood sugar levels, Amy had some good questions. She wanted to know about some specific different things. So she wanted to know, to help regulate blood sugar, is it better to go on a walk right after a meal? Or if the morning blood sugar is high, is it better to walk before the first meal? So that's the first one she asks about. So walking, and you mentioned walking earlier, so I'm glad she's talking about it. Is the timing of it, do you see a difference?

Kara Collier

Yeah, in general, walking is a great tool. The more you can do it and the more you can kind of get these like micro walks in. So 10 minutes here, five minutes there versus like a really long walk is better. So if you have the ability to do a 10 minute walk in the morning when you wake up and the ability to do 10 minutes walking after each meal, like that's ideal. But if you're like, I'm only going to do it once, I would say right after a meal is the best.

Melanie Avalon

And then another one she asked about when is the best time to take berberine?

Kara Collier

Yeah, I'm also curious to see if you if you have a preferred time, but in general, I see it best with meals. So I tend to recommend if you're kind of splitting it up, like if you're taking it twice a day, kind of taking it with with your biggest meals as the most optimal time, but I recommend taking it consistently. So as opposed to kind of taking it here and there, the more consistent you are, we see I see better benefits, but curious your, your thoughts. 1

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Well, first of all, have I sent you my berberine?

Kara Collier

I think last time you did, yes, yes, you did, because it's in the beautiful glass bottle. I love when they're glass bottles and not plastic.

Melanie Avalon

Me too. Yeah, no, huge Burberry fan here. It's interesting and I'm glad you asked that question because the majority of the research I've seen on Burberry does dose it around meals. That said, I do a daily fast. I fast every day and I eat one meal a day at night. So I actually just personally, I do take it in the morning and then I take it before my meal as well. I just, that's the way I do it.

Kara Collier

Yeah, makes sense. And I think the main recommendation from my awareness of taking it with meals is because sometimes people have GI side effects and they tend to be lessened with with meals, less so of like effectiveness. So if you don't have any sort of, you know, GI issues with it, then I don't think it matters as much.

Melanie Avalon

That's a good point. Yeah. It's also astounding because I think a lot of people think about berberine and they focus on the blood sugar control aspect, but there are so many studies on the other benefits of it beyond that. So helping with cholesterol, it actually, there's a study on showing how it activates AMPK, also microbiome effects. That's why I thought about it. So yeah, it has a lot of potential good benefits, which I love.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. And just like general like suppression of chronic inflammation, those like natural stress pathways. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so low risk, like we don't really see any sort of issues with it.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's great. How about fasting? So I'm going to modify her question a little bit because she's wanting to know, actually before that, since we're talking about blood sugar levels, she wants to know what is the best time to drink apple cider vinegar for blood sugar. She said she's seen 15 minutes before a meal and also right after a meal, does it matter? Do you have thoughts on apple cider vinegar?

Kara Collier

Yeah, I typically see the best benefit with this if it's right before a meal. So just drinking a little bit, diluting it with water if you want to. I know there are also apple cider vinegar supplements, but honestly, just kind of drinking it, taking a quick shot, diluting it into a beverage. A lot of people will dilute it into a plain sparkling water if that's your preference and kind of drinking it right before the meal, I tend to see the best, best impact.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Do you personally use any? Well, I know we're brain. Do you use apple cider vinegar?

Kara Collier

I don't use it consistently. I have used it in Burberry or not Burberry apple cider vinegar is one of those that you can sort of use more randomly and see just as much of an impact versus like needing consistent use to see the benefit. So if I know like I have maybe an abnormal meal coming up that's like higher carbohydrate or kind of something going on, like I'll try to incorporate it. Like I'm like, Oh, a mental note to do it, but it's not a part of my daily routine.

Melanie Avalon

And then Amy's last question was the fasting schedule. She wants to know for blood sugar, is it better to do a long fast or to fast daily for X amount of hours? What might people find with fasting and CGM?

Kara Collier

Yeah, and this is one of those topics where I think wearing the CGM and experimenting is going to be your best option because I see so much variability between people of what what is kind of their optimal sweet spot for fasting. Like as I mentioned, I think there's some good general rules of thumb of like, you know, don't be grazing all day, like make sure you have at least, you know, a little bit of time between your last meal and going to bed, having some sort of fasting window throughout the day. And then beyond sort of the basics, I just, I just see so much variability between what works for people. What you're kind of looking for is what does your glucose look like when you break a fast, so kind of just being mindful of what is the first few bites of food you put in your mouth, please don't start straight with carbohydrates, you'll probably especially the longer you've been fasting, the more important this is of like how you're breaking that fast. And then kind of when it comes to the right timing, you just sort of experiment with different times. And then that fasting window, I think also experiment. I know you you mentioned you do OMAD, and I think it works really well for some people. And then for some people, it doesn't. So I think just kind of testing that out for yourself. And usually the factor that I see of when it doesn't work is if they have a lot of other stressors stacked up in their life. And there's one too many stressors happening. So if you have a very stressful job, and you don't have your stress management under control, and you kind of are doing other things that are putting stress on your body, sometimes the positive stress of fasting and some of these other things like, you know, sauna cold plunge can tip that scale into too much stress. And then we see glucose levels go up fasting glucose levels, postprandial responses, average glucose levels. And so usually it's kind of what which of those things can we adjust so that we can normalize. And then with some people, we see their glucose levels dramatically appear dramatically improve when we add in more fasting than what they're currently doing. So again, I think it's contextual. And I think you have to experiment. But you know, I do recommend kind of the basics of doing some type of fasting window. So you're not eating 24 seven and trying not to eat like right before you go to bed. And then being mindful of how you're breaking that fast is super important.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I just like you're saying, it's so individual. And it also can change, you know, through time, like one thing that's working for you now might be different later. Like I know for me in the past, I went through a period of time where I was very low carb, almost carnivore, and I would have higher fasting blood sugar levels doing that. And then when I actually added in some carbs, I actually started having lower fasting blood sugar levels. And so my theory there is that, you know, my liver was probably like overcompensating, putting out glucose, and then it's actually just brought in, you know, endogenous or exogenous carbs. I feel like it wasn't keeping my levels high all the time. Things just can really change. So if you had to, well, Susan wanted to know what's the best way to lower blood sugar, and we literally just went through so many different ones. But so maybe I'll modify her question a little bit. If you had to, you know, have somebody start somewhere, because that's so many lifestyle factors, like where should somebody like, where should they start? Because it can be a little bit overwhelming, I think.

Kara Collier

Yeah, it definitely can be. And that's again, why I think a CGM can be helpful is because you can kind of identify like, oh, this one meal is like really not working for me. Let me just adjust this thing versus kind of you get a high A1C and you're like, what do I need to do to bring this down? Like what do I, like it feels overwhelming. So it can be helpful to have just like more information so you can pick one thing at a time that you know is working. But if you don't have that, you're like not really sure and you know, your, your glucose is elevated. I would start with just being mindful of your carbohydrate intake. You know, it sounds simple, but that's a good place to start. I think one of the biggest myths out there that I'm sure your audience is a little bit more aware of than maybe the average person is just that like half of your calories should come from carbohydrates. And that's a lot. And like for 98% of people, it's too much. Sometimes I see it work fine for people if they're like athletes usually is pretty much the only bucket that, that amount tends to be okay. And so really just being kind of mindful of that total carbohydrate amount and prioritizing your plate to be more about protein, non-starchy vegetables, if you tolerate those well, and then kind of the carbohydrates are more of a nice to have small amount. So that can make a big difference. And then if you're consuming any form of like liquid carbohydrates, try, try to cut those out and that, cause that makes a big impact. You know, even if it's sort of quote unquote natural juices, that's still a very concentrated form of carbohydrates, any sort of sweetened beverage, sweetened coffees, Gatorade, you know, checking the sugar content of like electrolytes. So trying to just be mindful of that liquid sugar is another really kind of like big place to start kind of auditing your sugar intake.

Melanie Avalon

I'm pretty sure I think we talked about this before. I'm so fascinated by this question. So I'll re-ask it. How do you feel about the recommendation people make to add fat to your carbs to slow down the absorption of the carbs?

Kara Collier

Yeah. So it is this concept of kind of like no naked carbs, which I do think has validity to it. But what I see work a lot better than just kind of coding carbohydrates and fat is eating some protein before you have any form of carbohydrate. So back to that kind of point of how you break a fast, if you are in a fasted state and your first bite of food is like a banana, you're probably a piece of steak and then some non-starchy vegetables, like you're doing Brussels sprouts or whatever it is, and then like banana is your dessert or whatever, however you're arranging that. It's probably going to be a much more blunted glucose response, which is going to have a less of an impact directly on kind of your blood vessel health and that endothelial tissue and those things that kind of cascade from a dramatic glucose spike. So it is beneficial to first prioritize eating protein before you have carbohydrates and not eating them by themselves. But that doesn't mean that trying to think of a good example. If you're eating potatoes, that putting a bunch of olive oil on top of them makes them significantly better. That's kind of where we're headed. Instead, I would say eat a piece of fish and then have a few bites of potatoes if you want them and see what your glucose does.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I feel like my take on it is a little controversial, but I actually, I don't know. I just feel like if you're having carbs, adding fat to that just seems like a bad idea to me. Because then you're, I love the idea, basically for carbs, I would say add what you just said, protein or like green veggies. Because then you're gonna slow the absorption, but you're not gonna be adding in a competing fuel source. Because when you're adding in the fat, then you're just encouraging a situation, in my opinion, of energy toxicity. Because now you have like, you're adding a lot of calories, you're adding two fuel sources of fat versus carbs. It just seems, I don't know, compared to if you add in the protein or the veggies, but not adding in the fat, you can still be using that glucose and those carbs as fuel, the protein will be slowing everything down. I don't think it'll be running into this like conflicting fuel option.

Kara Collier

I agree. And I think volume matters. Like what the quantity of food definitely makes an impact. So it's like, you know, if we start to get where the quantity of food is more than your body needs, then it's it is going to start kind of kicking that in. But if it's like smaller amounts, it doesn't matter as much. But what I always recommend is that focusing on protein versus fat, because I also don't see fat blunt the glucose response nearly as well as protein or fiber does anyway. So it doesn't seem to have as powerful of an effect in that. And it is like, fat is extremely calorically dense. I am not fat phobic. I'm pro fat. But that doesn't mean that we want to like I maybe this is controversial, but I am not in the camp of add more fat to everything. Like the butter coffee is not my vibe. Because what I see often of what this actually turns into of people what people actually do with that is they're eating carbohydrates and they're putting butter in their coffee. And now we've just added 300 calories of butter for no reason. And like they're not any more satiated. They're not eating any less. They're not in ketosis. They're just adding more fat in random places. And that's not helpful.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I actually I'm on I'm on the same page there, because I feel like that's such a common recommendation. Add fat to your carbs. And it really should be add protein to your carbs. Like that would just be such a better recommendation, I think for for people.

Kara Collier

And usually the fat source people are adding that situation isn't necessarily like nutrient dense either, it's not like adding a lot of value.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Yeah. So true. So we're talking a lot about using a continuous glucose monitor for blood sugar levels. And I think we're kind of focusing on, well, actually we haven't even really defined this. So blood sugar levels and how it does relate to metabolic health in general. So that's me asking you, like, what are your thoughts there? Stephanie wanted to know, does glucose have any relation to heart health or cholesterol? Would her general practitioner give her a prescription if she asked? That's a good second question. Okay. So a few different things there. So general health, do the blood sugar levels, how do they affect our metabolic health? Does it relate to heart health? What are your thoughts there?

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. So metabolic health and metabolism in general, I think of as like this whole bucket of all the processes our body is doing in order to turn food into usable fuels. So thinking about digesting, absorbing, processing, transporting, excreting, it's all of the different processes required to utilize the energy that we're putting into our system and the energy that we've stored in our system. So that's like metabolic health and metabolism as a whole. And then glucose is one of those main fuel points, right? So we have glucose, we have fats and fatty acids, and those are our two main fuel sources. Of course, there's also ketones. And so by monitoring that, we have a good idea of kind of how that metabolic system is working. And typically you don't have glucose. It's not usually like if you keep going down a certain path of metabolic dysfunction, that you're only going to have one issue, that you're just going to have glucose issues and never lipid issues, or you're just going to have lipid issues and never glucose issues. So typically, like if we have metabolic dysfunction, that means our energy processing, transporting, all of those different systems are not working as they're designed to be working. And so you can kind of see that by watching how your glucose levels change and react and how they fluctuate. There's definitely a correlation with glucose levels and cardiovascular health, heart disease risk. And that's where tracking glucose levels tends to be easier than tracking lipids because we have the technology to monitor it in this 24 seven way. So usually when we improve glucose levels, we tend to kind of improve metabolic health as a whole, which then has that kind of ripple effect bleeding into improving lipid levels and kind of those other areas. But it doesn't just start with cardiovascular health. One thing I always like pointing out is that it also has a direct impact on kind of the sort of brain function side of things. So both risk for conditions like Alzheimer's and dementia, but also kind of your day to day ability to concentrate cognitive function memory, because that, you know, our brain is very glucose dependent and very insulin sensitive organ. So that's kind of another major area that by monitoring glucose levels and optimizing them kind of having that big impact on long term and short term health.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, yeah. When she asked about would her general practitioner give her a prescription, if she asked, I'm curious if she's asking about like for her blood sugar levels or if if he would give it to her based on her cholesterol. But either way, do you find doctors are open to prescribing them to people?

Kara Collier

Yeah, historically, not so much, which is why we decided to do it ourselves. You started your company. Yeah, so we traditionally know, and I think part of the resistance here is that they're not trained on what to do with the information. It's like, okay, if I give this to a non-diabetic, and they come back and tell me, look at my glucose levels, how was it? They don't know because the only... And I really can't blame them for that because the only thing they've been trained on is maybe managing the diabetics levels, which is honestly very, very different. So part of it is, how do they help somebody if they do give it to them? And then the other is, it's not anywhere in traditional guidelines that this is a use case. So traditional medical triaging, an intervention for somebody, this is nowhere in the standard recommendations that it might be a useful tool. So unless you get somebody who's maybe more of in the functional medicine space, it's probably unlikely that they're going to, unfortunately. But yeah, that's sort of why we exist. And now that things are moving a little bit more over the counter, you can kind of bypass that all in general. So I would kind of go around them if they're resistant.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And I don't know the, obviously I don't know the technicalities of the medical system and how it works, but I would imagine, I know for doctors, there's a lot of pressure about what they can and can't prescribe and there's codes they have to follow. And so I would imagine it's probably not the easiest for them to prescribe a CGM without like a verified you are diabetic or pre-diabetic like code to put in the system.

Kara Collier

Definitely like insurance won't cover it and so usually weren't they're not typically thinking about things if it's not in a classic like insurance coverage route

Melanie Avalon

And so, glad we're talking about this, to clarify, so when people use Nutrisense, what is the setup? How many CGM's do they get? How does it work with the app? What is that experience like?

Kara Collier

Yeah. So each CGM lasts 14 days. So kind of our minimum order is to do two CGM's or like a month supply. And that's a great place to start if you're not really sure, if you just kind of want to check it out, or if you're generally healthy and just want to see some of these additional like insights that we talked about. So if you were to just do the one month, then you would get those two CGM's shipped to your door. You just kind of sign up on our website online. It's super simple. You fill out a quick health questionnaire, and then we'll ship it to your door. And then you have access to the app, which is where you'll see your glucose data. Once you put the sensor on, you can log your meals, you can kind of sync with your wearables. So any data from like your Apple watch or your or ring will sync on there. And that's also where you can schedule and book calls with our nutritionists and where you can kind of connect with them. Like I mentioned, now we offer full video consults, which again, for some people using the app, looking at the data, reading our blogs, talking to our kind of like chatbot that has all of our information might be enough. But then for other people, there was this big issue of kind of like what now or what does this mean, or what's most important to take away from here. Being able to kind of connect with that human helps people really turn the data into actions and change. And so then we also offer three months, six months and 12 months subscriptions. So you can change to those plans at any time, but it gets cheaper, kind of the longer the commitment term.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. And yeah, this will be a good time. So I will give listeners a link, because we do have a discount code for you guys. So thank you so much for that Kara. So people can go to Nutrisense.com slash if podcast. So that's n u t r i s e n s e comm slash if podcast and use the code I have podcast that will get you $30 off and one month of free nutritionist support. So definitely check that out. I'm super curious just like a day in your life, Kara at Nutrisense. Like what's a day in the life? I mean, I know we're like podcasting right now. But you know, where's your focus? What are you doing? Like was what's it like being at the company?

Kara Collier

Yeah, that's a great question. It's all over the place. I would say one thing that is always true is that a one day never looks the same as another day. But largely, so I'm responsible, really paying attention to our dietitian services. So everything that our dietitians touch and making sure that they are, you know, adequately staffed, trained, supporting our customers in the right appropriate way. And then anything that kind of requires knowing anything subject matter expertise. So I'm working with product a lot to make sure our product is really good, and scientifically sound and also useful and actionable. And then kind of external facing activities like this that require some of that more knowledge about kind of the nitty gritty of what it all means.

Melanie Avalon

And two more personal questions. One, how often do you wear a CGM?

Kara Collier

Well, I'm actually wearing one right now. So pretty often, I think when I first started wearing them, I wore them pretty much 24 seven, where now I probably tend to put one on every, I don't know, maybe two or three months, sometimes I'll wear them more often, if just there's like something happening in my life that I'm trying to pay more attention to. But in my normal routine, it's it's Yeah, maybe once every quarter. So

Melanie Avalon

This is actually really inspiring me because I haven't worn one in a while and I have one. So for me guys, so I'm going to I'm going to put that on like really soon. And what are you most excited about in the future with all of this?

Kara Collier

Yeah, similarly to what we've talked about, I think we're really at a cusp of a lot of positive change happening. So I'm excited about all of the technology advancements that are going to be coming, but I'm also really excited in terms of kind of the switch to the over-the-counter sensors. Because I think they're going to become more normalized. More people are going to be wearing these. They're going to be cheaper, which is going to make it easier for a lot more people to use them. And they're just going to become better technology that are easy to understand, easy to wear. They're going to last longer. And just like my personal goal, the reason I got in this in the first place is because I really, truly believe that if everybody wears even just one CGM, we will be healthier as a nation. So that is my big picture, moonshot goal, is that everybody wears at least one. Honestly, we still have a lot of improvement to make in our health as a society, but I'm optimistic that we'll at least be heading in the right direction, hopefully.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Now I feel like I'm plagiarizing because literally that is how I open my conversations of CGMs. I always just say, especially for people who aren't familiar, I'm like, if everybody could just wear a CGM, like once, even just once, it would change the metabolic health of our nation. Like, hands down. Hands down. That's incredible. And it's really good to hear because I was curious when I first heard that, yeah, CGMs are going to become more accessible or maybe not require prescription. I was wondering how it was going to affect companies like you. Like, would you see that as, you know, a threat because you're providing CGMs, you know, and now people can get them over the counter. It's good to hear that you're all about the more access and the abundance. Because even if you get one over the counter, that is not going to help you analyze that data, make sense of it. I think so many people, you know, they get a CGM and then it's like, now what? You need something that helps you to understand everything. And Nutrisense, the app, and everything that you're doing is just so, so valuable for that. So, like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. And it's definitely synergistic. You know, if I love that they're going to be, you know, cheaper and easier, but it's also they are not they're not good at making apps or accessible data. So it's definitely synergistic of what we do and what the hardware manufacturers do.

Melanie Avalon

So again, for listeners, cannot recommend enough getting a CGM, go to Nutrisense.com slash I have podcast use the code I have podcast to save $30 and get one month of free nutrition and support. So well, this was awesome. I would love to just keep having you on annually if you're down because I, I just think this is so so helpful for people and I just can't thank you enough for all you're doing. So so thank you so much for everything that you're doing.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. I would be thrilled to make it an annual change and honestly, so much changes in a year would be fun to kind of do at that cadence.

Melanie Avalon

I know. It's really exciting, especially like going back to what we were talking about in the beginning. Like just so much has changed even from last time we talked, so. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day and we will have to talk again soon.

Kara Collier

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Melanie. Bye.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Feb 09

Episode 408 – Does MCT Oil Break The Fast?, GMO Probiotics To Break Down Alcohol, Fasting Tea And Coffee, Fasting For Colonoscopy Prep, Habits And Planning, Our Favorite Biohacks, Infrared Saunas And Red Light Therapy, And More!

Welcome to Episode 408 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

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PIQUE FASTING TEAS

Get up to 20% off plus a free beaker at piquelife.com/ifpodcast.

ZBIOTICS

Get 10% off with code MELANIEAVALON at melanieavalon.com/zbiotics

SUNLIGHTEN

Get up to $200 off and $99 shipping (regularly $598) with code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/sunlighten.

LINKS

Featured Restaurant: The Bright Star Restaurant

Yebo Beach Haus

Atomic Habits

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad

I'm good i'm really really good actually i feel super rested recharged how you feeling today.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad you're feeling that way. I'm hoping that like comes over to me because I love energy. And so the more, the merrier.

Barry Conrad

I'm sending it to you right now through the computer. Take it, take it, take it.

Melanie Avalon

Normally this is my vibe, like 8 o'clock PM my time, but yeah, I'm a little bit on the struggle bus. But last night I went to a restaurant which was South African.

Barry Conrad

Wow. Where was it? What was it called? What kind of food? What was the situation like?

Melanie Avalon

It's called Yibo Beach House, spelled like H-A-U-S, I think, in Buckhead in Atlanta. I only realized it was South African because like half of the wines were, it was a lot of South African wines. Which, do you like South African wine? Have we talked about this?

Barry Conrad

We haven't talked about this, but they, I was about to say they know we, I should say, because I'm South African, we know how to do wines. It's it's really, really easy to drink. It's paired well with like meats, especially like Springbok, Budovos, Biltong, all that.

Melanie Avalon

That was a lot of words that I don't think I, what was the first one?

Barry Conrad

Springbok.

Melanie Avalon

spring, bok, buck, like a deer.

Barry Conrad

Like yeah, exactly. So spring book is

Melanie Avalon

ringed deer.

Barry Conrad

Yeah it's actually ends but we call it like for example like a rugby team is the spring box or would like to call them the book like the book.

Melanie Avalon

And it's deer, venison.

Barry Conrad

You can eat it yeah and it's it's honestly amazing like the springbok lamb shanks wow incredible.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, wait, but that would be lamb. Now I'm confused.

Barry Conrad

Like Springbok Shanks, I should say. Kind of like Springbok. I went to South Africa a couple of years ago on a trip, listeners, and we got to stay at the safari, and they fed us like Springbok Shanks, Boudevoirs, amazing chicken paired with ones. Boudevoirs? Boudevoirs. Can you try to say it? Boudevoirs? Almost, yeah. You got to roll the R.

Melanie Avalon

I can't do that. Can you do that? I've heard if you don't learn how to do it, you can't ever do it.

Barry Conrad

Maybe you can go Brouwars? It's not quite the same.

Melanie Avalon

I'm not saying it again. I'm not saying it. I'm tapping out. So what is that? That word I will not say.

Barry Conrad

So the boudevoirs, the word that you are tapping out of, it's sausage. So African sausage, we have it on, you know, like people call the barbecue, like a barbecue, we call it a braai, B-R-A-A-I, and it's like a barbecue, but way better, and we have boudevoirs on the braai, it's the best sausage you'll ever have, it's amazing, not just saying it, we have to try it together.

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if that was on the menu, I should have looked at the menu more.

Barry Conrad

What did you have then? Just the wines?

Melanie Avalon

I just drank wine. So they had a lot of South African wines, but none of them were organic. And South African wines, because of the hotter climate, I'm assuming would be higher alcohol, higher sugar. So yeah, they had one organic wine and it was my favorite white varietal. So I was a long day. I don't even know how to say it. Milan de Bourgogne from France. It was

Barry Conrad

Like a peanut, what kind of, what does it taste similar to, like a peanut grease you?

Melanie Avalon

It tastes like melon, honestly, which I love. It's really light, fruity, melony. Melony, not Melanie. Melony. But and something I had before, which I'm dying to tell listeners about. I literally did not plan this, but perfect segue. I interviewed recently Zach Abbott. He is the founder of a company called Zebiotics. Have you heard of this company? I haven't told me. So he made the world's first genetically modified probiotic. So the probiotic is genetically engineered. And we had a whole side topic discussion about the like the misperception of GMOs. Like they're not necessarily bad. Like the concept of like genetically engineering something or modifying something. They modify this probiotic to create the enzyme which breaks down diacetaldehyde, the toxic byproduct of alcohol metabolism. Oh, wow. Yeah. So your liver is really good at breaking that down, but the stomach cannot doesn't really have that enzyme. So according to him, a lot of like the negative effects from drinking come from the diacetaldehyde that is in the stomach because there's no enzyme to break it down because it doesn't all make its way to the liver. So this probiotic is engineered to create that enzyme. So you take it before drinking. It's called Zebiotics. It's like in a little, it's a liquid in a little like shot. You take a shot of it before drinking and it breaks down that, that toxic byproduct. So it is amazing for, if you're drinking a lot or moderately.

Barry Conrad

We need that, Mel. We need to try that. I think that's for us.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I'm using it now, like on the regular. And now every time I go out, I take it before hand. I'm obsessed. It's like part of my protocol.

Barry Conrad

How long before you drink do you have to take the shot is it like a half an hour is like faster an hour?

Melanie Avalon

Like right before you start drinking, but it also lasts 24 hours, which is cool. And he said it produces more, like more enzyme than you could ever drink enough to, like it's enough to cover however much you're drinking, essentially. I'm noticing a difference. Like it really works. And I posted about it in my Facebook group and so many people commented saying that they've tried it and it really, they really noticed a difference.

Barry Conrad

So you feel, what do you feel when you have it compared to before when you weren't trying it?

Melanie Avalon

I just, well, I do so many other things in my like drinking protocol. So I don't really get intense hangover-y type symptoms ever. Cause I'm like so intense with everything, but I just notice, so it's comparing it, I don't know. I drank a lot for new years.

Barry Conrad

like what

Melanie Avalon

will dry farm wines, but then they had like cheap champagne and I had some of that and it was like way too much. And I definitely noticed the next day, like not, I just would have felt that a lot more, I think, if I hadn't had that before. So I highly recommend it. He also has one that I have not tried that turns some sugar into fiber. It like converts sugar into fiber. I have not tried that one yet.

Barry Conrad

like commercially where like people need these things because this is going to just help like your everyday life. I need to try these both of those.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, it's it's super cool. So if listeners are interested, I wonder if they ship to Australia.

Barry Conrad

Australia was about to ask.

Melanie Avalon

Probably not. But maybe. Actually, I don't know. I feel like with their regulations and stuff, we should check.

Barry Conrad

Does it come like refrigerated in the start of the year? Probably, I don't know if it would.

Melanie Avalon

it's not refrigerated, it's shelf stable. Yeah. But in any case, listeners, if they would like to try it, they can go to Melanie Avalon.com slash Z Biotics. So it's Z B I O T I C S. Use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off. Definitely check that out. Literally, like I said, it is part of my protocol now, not every night because of the cost of it, but on nights that go out for sure.

Barry Conrad

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to jump on that train. It's super cool.

Melanie Avalon

Anything new in your life before we jump into topics?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I've I've actually been revisiting like a book that I have read before it's called atomic habits. Have you heard of that book?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, that's one of my favorite books. It's shocking how long that book was on the New York Times bestseller list. It just never left the list. It just stayed there.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. And listeners, if you don't know about this book, it's by James Clear. And it's basically about habits, but not just a generic way of explaining it. It's about small, consistent daily habits over time, rather than a big, dramatic one. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And making it easy and more identity based. So for example, rather than saying, I can't have that to eat. It's like, well, I'm a healthy person kind of a thing. So basically, creating more of a structure around your life. So you don't need the self control, basically making it hacking your habits in a way. And so I think it's super cool. Because, I mean, Mel, you and I talked about this a while ago, how, like, there's more freedom and structure. I really think that I've always lived that way. And this book is all about that. And even if you were to tie it back to, like, even like intermittent fasting, it's the same sort of thing. Like the structure of having a fasting or eating window. And just remember the decision fatigue. And we're not making choices all day. So I think it's such a good book. I love it. It's a really, really good book for any time of year. So I highly recommend that. Listeners, please check it out, Atomic Habits by James Clear.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. I actually, I think that's the one that I, wait, is that the one that I cried at the end? Wait, have you finished it?

Barry Conrad

I've read it once before, but I'm going through it again, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Do you remember at the end, does he talk about mindfulness and stuff? Is that how it ends? Okay. Yeah. I cried. How are you consuming it? I usually...

Barry Conrad

Consuming having it with like a knife and fork no I usually I usually listen audiobook for nonfiction but this one I kind of wanted to sit down and read something because it was getting distracted a lot and I wanted to kind of block things out some reading it the paperback.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I listened to it and him reading the ending. I was crying. I was like, what am I doing?

Barry Conrad

What about the ending made you cry? Like, why, what do you think? That was probably.

Melanie Avalon

probably like 2018, it's probably like six or seven years ago, something about just how motivating it was. It was really inspiring. Yeah, I love what you said about it's really great for something like working on habits surrounding fasting and things like that. It's funny, I actually thought about you last night because I was talking with one of the girls and we were talking about, because you just mentioned the freedom and structure concept, and we were talking about making plans. And I was talking about how I feel safe when there were plans. I need plans to feel in control of life and feel safe and feel good and have freedom. And she was saying that the idea of planning something is horrible. It makes her feel constricted and horrible and want to run away. And it's so interesting that people can have completely different feelings about that.

Barry Conrad

I'm with you. There's more freedom in that because you can always divert from the plan, but not having a plan is kind of like, Oh, what's going to happen? Okay, let me zoom out for a second. I think in certain situations, not all situations, if you're hanging out with people on the day and you're kind of just having a day all day, like I'd go with the floor and whatnot. But if I'm scheduling a specific time or whatever, I'd love to just schedule that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, same. We were talking about the example of like, I love making future plans. Like I have, you know, my guests are scheduled out through 2026. I have like theater shows scheduled out to go to through like the whole year. And she was saying that the idea of like making a plan to see a show in May is just like the worst, you know, like really, she does not like that concept. And I

Barry Conrad

That is really interesting. And that's actually so far in the future. I don't think I'm that, I don't know if I'm that well versed in the planning, but I think, you know, maybe it's going to inspire me to do that more. Because sometimes I can see if something's so far in the future, I'm like, am I going to be around? And you kind of get like trepidation or fear about like, what if I'm going to miss out on something else? But sometimes it's good just to be, well, it is good just to be certain and just, you know, decisive and just plan it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's kind of like what you said. You don't have, you know, once the time comes, things can change. But if I don't plan it, then, and it's something I want to do, then I don't know that I actually might be able to do it unless I put it down on my calendar. Yep.

Barry Conrad

I'd love to see your calendar. It's probably like so crazy, like just dates everywhere, writing everywhere, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Melanie Avalon

It makes me happy. It's my favorite thing. Okay. Shall we jump into some intermittent fasting related things?

Barry Conrad

Julian on Facebook says, I just recently started implementing black coffee with MCT oil in the morning during a fasted state. I usually also take seropeptase during that time as well. Would it be fine to take both MCT oil and seropeptase simultaneously? I want to make sure the MCT oil didn't interfere with the seropeptase since it's helped my sinuses drastically. Also, if I'm having black coffee with MCT oil, would I still be in the fasted state? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you. All right, Julian, thank you so much for your question. So it's a pretty simple answer. Well, first of all, about being in the fastest state with the MCT oil, this is heavily debated as it has been for eons and eons. On this show, consistently, we do believe, well, actually, Barry, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Historically, we believe that having anything caloric, especially something like MCT oil, like fat, would, quote, break the fast, because you're taking in calories. People say that MCT oil doesn't break the fast because it's a type of fat that's immediately, essentially, shuttled to the liver for energy, and it supports the production of ketones. So people will say that it's supporting the fasted state because it's just creating more ketones and running on fat. I believe, though, you're taking in calories, it is a food, so I do not consider black coffee with MCT oil still being in the fastest state. I would see it as being in a state fed on MCT oil and still producing ketones like the fasted state, but not actually being fasted. What are your thoughts on that, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree. I mean, it has calories, so that technically it's going to break your fast. So, you know, if you're wanting to do, if you're someone that subscribes to like a modified fast approach, which some people say, because you want mental clarity or energy without spiking insulin too much, go ahead. But I personally, and I know that you feel the same way, it's not really the clean fast. It's going to break your fast. Do you know what I mean? So I'm on that team for sure. I'd skip the MCT all and just, you know, just have it during the faster window. I mean, just, just have it during eating. We know, I should say, let's do that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and when I add MCT oil it actually for me would always make me hungrier when I would experiment with that I don't know. Have you experimented with adding MCT oil to your coffee ever?

Barry Conrad

You know, during the bulletproof craze, I've introduced butter and whatnot, but not MCT oil so much. Is it much different? Like the feeling or the taste or the effect, having a bit of butter?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it is. It is pretty different because the butter is a long chain triglyceride. So it's like a saturated fat that has to be broken down, digested, you know, turned into energy. And then like I was saying before, MCT oil, especially there's like, there's the C8 and the C10 version, and I would always get the C8 version, which is even quicker in how it is metabolized and turned into ketones. So it does provide like much faster energy. The taste is different because butter has like a buttery taste, MCT oil tastes. I love the way it tastes. I actually used to put in my food sometimes. It's a very neutral taste.

Barry Conrad

your food.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah when i was doing like low carb for a while i would just add a lot of empty oil so i feel like it really makes the food i don't know i love it i love the taste of it.

Barry Conrad

Is this kind of like when you would have the rotisserie chicken that phase? Like when you put the amputee over that or not really?

Melanie Avalon

Not that they actually back then I was doing a lot of coconut oil, which has MCTs in it, but it's primarily that that's a misconception. People think coconut oil is like all MCTs. It's not. It's like a small, a little bit of it is MCTs, but the majority of it is actually lauric acid. A majority of it is lauric acid, which is a long chain fatty acid. No, this was after, after that phase. But when I would do like, I just went through a stint where I was doing like low carb, quote, high fat, but it was high MCT oil fat. I actually think that's a good hack for people if what they're doing isn't working and they're doing low carb, but they still want to do low carb and they don't want to try like a carb approach. I think switching out all your fats for MCT oil or even just like removing your fats and just adding a little bit of MCT oil can actually be a way to try to break a plateau or get weight loss going again.

Barry Conrad

Right. Julian, if you're in doubt, the rule of thumb, the best way to approach it is black coffee, water, black tea. If you're having to flirt with anything else, if it has calories, it's going to break your fast. Just keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

I agree with you Barry so much like people stress a lot about all the different things to like the perfect, you know, fasting supporting drink or supplement or do you want to add amino acids? Do you want to add these different pre-workout things and really friends like coffee and tea are just like the work so well. Yeah, we love peak tea around here. They actually have a fasting tea that they made in collaboration with Dr. Jason Fung. The bergamot one is just pure organic black tea. And so again, Dr. Jason Fung helped formulate that to help support fasting. So listeners can actually get 10% off when you go to peaklife.com slash IF podcast, that's P-I-Q-U-E-L-I-F-E.com slash IF podcast. That's on the tea front. And then hopefully we're recording a little bit in advance, but hopefully by the time this comes out, my glow coffee will be hopefully on its way. So plug for that. We're creating that to be the highest CGA content coffee possible and CGA is the antioxidant, which is one of the main antioxidants that gives coffee all of its health benefits. So we specifically searched and sought out beans that are high naturally in CGA. And then we roast them, especially to be high in CGA. And then we third party lab test the coffee to make sure it's free of toxins and mold and pesticides and all the things. And actually over the holidays, Barry, I wish you could have been there. This was so fun. We did a blind taste test with like six of my friends and we tasted it against two other coffee brands that are similar to see what people liked the most. I was happy with the results. We tasted three coffees. It was neck and neck with one of them for being the crowd favorite. And then the other one people did not like as much.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Is there like a profile of coffee that you like?

Barry Conrad

Not too bitter, but I don't love too light. It's got to still give me that kick. Like I love actually tasting the coffee. So somewhere probably profile wise, mid to strong, I would say. Yeah. I need to try some of it when it comes out when it's ready. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon

or like wrapping up right now, like the art and yes. And I love the way it tastes. It's lighter to medium. It does have like some fruity notes and acidity to it, but it does have like a nutty flavorful finish as well. It tastes really good. It was half of the people's favorite out of all the three.

Barry Conrad

It's so exciting, I can't wait to try it.

Melanie Avalon

I'm excited too. You and I were talking offline, just while we're talking about drinks and pre-workouts breaking the fast. What did you get asked recently from somebody about a drink breaking the fast?

Barry Conrad

somebody asked me the other day, they were like, if I drink this, I'm not going to say the brand, this zero sugar energy drink, will that break my fast? Because, bro, it's like, it's energy. So, and it has no sugar. So, surely, that'll be fine. I'm like, bro, it's not fine. It's going to break too fast. It has calories. It's besides the point. Do you get asked that?

Melanie Avalon

Yes. And there's just so many, I like shutter when I look at those drinks, like all the ingredients in them and things. Like you could just get, like I was saying before, you could get health benefits and support your metabolism and all the things with, you know, a really good organic tea or coffee. That'll do it.

Barry Conrad

So you need, just get that glow. Get it. Yep. So we have a question from Jill and she asked, how to incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so Jill, I'm so, I'm actually surprised in the seven years or so that I've done this podcast that I don't think we've been asked this. And what's interesting about it, Well, Barry, have you had a colonoscopy?

Barry Conrad

This is very tasty conversation and I have not yet, but I actually am totally keen to try one because I heard it has so many benefits, right? Clearing out your system.

Melanie Avalon

Well, so Australia, they must have different. So like here in the US, I think you like are supposed to get one. Okay. So actually I just checked the rules. I guess I thought, I thought it was like in your thirties that you were supposed to get one in the US, but in the US it's, they recommend at 45. And then earlier, if you have a family history of colorectal cancer. Yeah. So I've actually had three, three already. Yeah. That's why I have so many thoughts. That's about this question.

Barry Conrad

I, Melanie, I have not had one, I can safely say, but I definitely, even though I did confuse it with something else before, it's very important to get one because of, especially have family history, and I am due to get one, so.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, Barry was confusing it with colonics, which I love colonics do not get me started on colonics. We actually have talked about those on the show, but for the colonoscopy, so I didn't ever have it. I didn't have it for like, I don't have a genetic risk for cancer or anything. I just had it because of my, because of my anemia, actually they were trying to see, which I don't have anymore, but they were trying to see if I had internal bleeding or something like that. So the prep for it, because she says, how do you incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep, you actually drink, it's, it's not fun. You have to, I'm like having flashbacks. You have to drink this like liquid laxative, like we're talking like a gallon of it. Like it is so much that you have to drink. I think it changes the different times I've done it, but I started an amount of time before you stop eating and then you just start drinking and drinking this stuff. Yeah. It's funny though. This is what's funny about it. So one of the times I did it, I was actually in the hospital for anemia. So I didn't have the, I wasn't able to kind of like make it my own. Like if I, cause when I did it at a later time, they just gave me the powder to make the drink and then you could like flavor it with the flavors they gave you. But I wanted to make it as like clean as possible. So I didn't do that, which I will circle back to you about how to incorporate fasting. But when I was in the hospital, I had to just drink, they already pre-mixed it. I had to drink it. It had like, we were talking earlier about flavors and stuff. It had all this like horrible stuff in it, like probably Stevia sweetened. I hadn't had anything like flavored and fake tasting in forever that literally when I started drinking it, I was like, this tastes amazing. Cause it tastes like candy cause I hadn't had like, you know, I hadn't had like that fake flavor-y stuff in years. I was like, this is great. It's like drinking Pez. Do they have Pez in Australia?

Barry Conrad

We don't have Pez. What is that similar to? Is it like a sugary drink? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

And no, no, no, it's like, it's like Pez dispensers, like these little like, it's like all the different, they're like different cartoon characters and then they dispense these little like sugar tablets that are flavored.

Barry Conrad

I feel like I feel like I can see what you're talking about and that's that's pretty delicious but drinking it. Yeah, I can see that.

Melanie Avalon

it literally tastes like that. But then by the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like horrible. I can't not drink another sip. But in any case, so my reframe for colonoscopy prep as a expert colonoscopy undergoer is it is a nice chance to do an extended fast because you do have to stop eating a certain amount of time before the surgery. It's not, I said surgery before the procedure. You have to be drinking this stuff, which even though it's, if you do like the flavored stuff, it does quote break the fast, but it isn't any calories. So you're not taking in any calories and then you like clean everything out. And then if you try to think if I like did not eat that, basically I was able to incorporate it and have a, an extended fast. All right, because the night before I didn't eat the night before cause I was doing the prep. So it was kind of a nice way to get in like a lot longer fasting hours and you actually can drink bone broth. So the most recent time I did it, I drank bone broth. So that actually was like food. So that time I kind of saw it as like an extended fast with a bone broth fast added on or like my normal fasting with like a bone broth fast. If you have to do a colonoscopy prep, I would try to make the actual stuff that you drink as benign as possible. So if you can get the version, cause it's usually covered by insurance, you can get a version where you're flavoring it yourself. Then you can just not use those flavor packets and you can flavor it with more helpful options. So I went to the store and I bought cause what it comes with is like is flavored with artificial sweeteners that are not good and you know, stuff you don't want. So I would, I went and found these like stevia flavored things at the store, which were a little bit more benign to flavor it. So I would recommend doing that. And then if you actually want to have food as well, you can do bone broth. So you can see it as like a way to have a bone broth thing. And then you have the procedure, which is actually, you know, you're under anesthesia. So it's quick from your perception.

Barry Conrad

You had the bone broth and you're just awake in two seconds.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you'll have to report back, Mary, if you do this.

Barry Conrad

So clear, non-caloric liquids, what I'm hearing is non-caloric liquids like water, bone broth, if allowed by your doctor, if they prescribe that, make sure you're hydrated beforehand, but also adjusting your fasting ahead of time. How did you approach your fasting maybe the day, two days beforehand?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I did completely normal up until the day before. And then the day before was the day where I had to start the prep. So that's where I got in my longer fast because normally I would have eaten that night but I didn't I for the first two I didn't have anything caloric I just had those drinks and then the third time I did it I had bone broth. Yeah, so basically the day before is where I didn't have a one meal a day meal like I normally do so I got in a longer fasting period of time and then had the procedure the next day and then you can eat well, I don't know if they recommend like go I think they do recommend like going slow but I'm so used to that's one thing I've noticed like I'm so used to fasting during the day and then eating a massive meal at night that I don't have to make any special like adjustment I don't need to like ease into my big meal again I'm like good to go. Yeah, you're good to go. Yeah, but I've been doing one meal a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, it's the same thing where doctors always say ease into it after any kind of a surgery or procedure, but I think the great thing about fasting is you already are having that long time of not eating, so your body's really primed for that. Just go back to your eating. You don't have to try to ease into having three gentle meals or five gentle meals, you know what I mean? So that's great. There's another benefit of IF.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, actually, and similar with like when I get the thing, you confused it with a colonic. Sometimes if I go to a new place, they'll give you all the material where they're like, you know, ease into foods after I'm like, I'm good. Like, like, I am totally good. I literally, I don't ever need it. I think even if I did like, I mean, I haven't, but I think even if I did like a five day extended fast, I literally probably could just like feast after and be fine. I'm not saying to do that. Ease in if you need to.

Barry Conrad

We're not endorsing, but we're just saying if you're used to that, then you know what you do you.

Melanie Avalon

We're just being real. So yeah, but on the flip side of not eating, speaking of food, Barry, you have a restaurant to explore?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant to explore and let me tell you this is one that I hunted down because one of my favorite cuisines is Greek food and the restaurant is called The Bright Star. The Bright Star is actually based in Alabama and it's the oldest continuously operating restaurant in Alabama. It started as this 25-cafe catering to local workers and it's grown into this 330-seat iconic landmark. It survived the Great Depression, stayed open to serve the community through that time. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was featured in the 100 dishes to eat in Alabama before you die. Yes!

Melanie Avalon

We love that.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and it's a family run establishment, so it's got lots of history. I love that it wasn't featured in that hundred dishes to eat in Alabama for you because I'm all about that final meals and whatnot. So should we dive in? Let's do it. Should we look at the menu?

Melanie Avalon

And first of all, I have to say I love places with like I love finding restaurants with history that have been around for so long. That's why for the first time we did this, I picked one that was like one of the oldest restaurants in America. I just it's so cool to think I just love like history of places. It's cool to think about. So for listeners, every episode we like to feature a cool restaurant that we found and say what we would order from the menu in our breaking of our fast because fasting one of the awesome things about fasting is the feasting on the other side.

Barry Conrad

Let's go to the dinner section and then, so we'll go look at the dinner section after choosing all of our food, then there's wine and beer and cocktail. So I think after dessert, even we might have to even check that out a drink of some sort, you're down.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. Well, this menu is massive. So, and they have a quick menu. I wonder what that's. Okay. You know, it's a massive menu when they start with their quote quick menu and the quick menu is, is larger than most menus. Very confusing. I'm confused. I'm confused. So what would you get for appetizer? Oh my gosh. There's so many things.

Barry Conrad

So I'm going down right now. Let me have a look. I'm gonna go for the appetizer.

Melanie Avalon

We have appetizers and then we have appetizer as entree.

Barry Conrad

When I saw that initially, I thought of, it's not the same thing, but when you said, I'll have my mains for dessert. But one thing that jumped out of me straight away was remember how I said I hadn't had. There's one thing on here, Mel, that I've told you that I haven't had before and you were really shocked. Can you guess what it is? It begins with an S, it's two words.

Melanie Avalon

I mean is it shrimp related? No because you like shrimp. Yeah. What was the shellfish that you... Oh right, shrimp cocktail.

Barry Conrad

I've never had a shrimp cocktail listeners ever I love shrimp I eat it normally but I just assume cocktail is not really a thing that you typically get in Australia at restaurants so that's definitely going to be on my starter situation. What is spag spag spag it sounds like is that spaghetti because we called spat like a spag bowl like a spaghetti bowl here in Australia.

Melanie Avalon

Really? It looks like it's an animal.

Barry Conrad

a spag.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's definitely, okay, Chad GPT says it's a small particle aerosol generator. I don't think it's that. Oh yeah, you're right. They're saying spaghetti.

Barry Conrad

Slickest bag, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Hm, I've never heard it called that. Interesting.

Barry Conrad

Okay, so I'm going to tell you my status first. I have a few. I'm going to do the shrimp cocktail, the entree baked mushrooms, and the entree bowl gumbo because I love gumbo. I tried it in New Orleans and it was game changing. So I'd love to try a Greek styled version. So that's my starters plural. What would you have?

Melanie Avalon

I would probably, I would maybe have lobster and crab. Oh my goodness. I can have so many things. Lobster and crab and salmon and shrimp. What is snap throat? Oh, snapper throat. Maybe they seem to like snapper here. I think I would get lobster, crab, shrimp, salmon. Let's just get all of it.

Barry Conrad

All of it. I feel like when we find the listeners, when we finally eat together, we probably need two tables put together because we want to have like taste little bits of everything, I reckon.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'd be down. I would be down. What would you get as your main thing?

Barry Conrad

I would get the lobster and we get the fried chicken I love fried chicken with the passion and I love lobster as well so both of those for the manes for me.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like apparently snapper is their thing. I feel like I need to get snapper. I'm a little bit curious though about the mercury levels and snapper. So I probably wouldn't get the snapper. Now that I say that I probably look it up and see if I could find mercury levels in it. But from my memory, I don't think it's I don't think it's low.

Barry Conrad

I forgot to add that one of the signature dishes is the Greek style snapper.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So you might be missing out. I don't think, yeah, I would want it, but I don't think I would get it because of the mercury. So I probably get filet mignon. Yes.

Barry Conrad

Okay, and for dessert, are you going to get just the one or are you going to get another one?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, right. I think because I got so many appetizers that I can just have the filet. Oh, they have a veal steak. Hmm. I changed my mind. I'm like, I'm gonna get the veal steak.

Barry Conrad

Big, it's a big menu. I'm very impressed this place.

Melanie Avalon

I am too. And then they have a ton of dessert, what would you get for dessert?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I'm looking at it now.

Melanie Avalon

Can you get the birthday pie so I can look at it?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I've got a few choices. I'm going to I'm going to do the because you know, I love chocolate. It's my favorite. I'm going to do the whole chocolate pie, the peanut butter slice with vanilla ice cream on the side, and then the birthday cake. I'll order as well, but I'm not going to have all of it. I'll just have it for you to a look at and for me to like taste. How's that?

Melanie Avalon

perfect. And I would just watch and get some more, probably some more salmon, maybe probably whatever appetizer, like the best out of the salmon shrimp lobster, grab more of whatever I liked the most.

Barry Conrad

What about a drink? A beverage? What would you like to have? There's wine there, there's beer there, there's cocktails. I'm eyeing the cocktails, just FYI.

Melanie Avalon

I don't know I'd have to look I don't know if there's a wine I'd have to look up all the wines and there's a lot and I'm not sure if there are any that are organic low alcohol European so yeah what would you get?

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, you know, I love a margarita meal, so I'm going to go for their blueberry lemonade margarita. Something different. I usually get a spicy, but I'm all about trying different margaritas, so that's my choice.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Oh wait, actually they have lovey bunches. I think that's actually, wait, oh my goodness, wait a minute. Actually, they have one of my favorite organic wines. It's not European. It's, I'm assuming it's a typo on their website because it says love you bumches, but I think it's, if it's love you bunches, if that's supposed to be an N, that I love that wine. It doesn't say which a varietal it is, but they have a rosé that's organic, low alcohol. They also have a red. It's by Staltman Vineyards. Yeah, I really love them. They have really nice organic practices as well. And they're like light, low alcohol. Oh, I'm happy. Yay. Okay. Awesome.

Barry Conrad

I don't think we've had one in our very few restaurants we've done so far where you've pointed out like a wine that's organic, so that's pretty good. That's awesome. Thanks, Brightstar.

Melanie Avalon

I haven't looked at the wine list before this. Going forward, I will for sure. Well, a shout out again to the Bright Star Restaurant.

Barry Conrad

Shout out to Bart star when we're in Alabama next we'll have to check you out we have to make a list of all these restaurants by the way by the end of at the end of each year and sort of like okay when when we're going to be there let's just go through list and just do a tour of all the places.

Melanie Avalon

Sounds like a plan in my dream mind.

Barry Conrad

I don't think you're going to do that because you want to travel for a day.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you can do it. I'll watch. I'll come to one of them.

Barry Conrad

That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon

Shall we answer one more question? Let's do it. Jennifer would like to know, if you could only have one biohack in your life, what would it be?

Barry Conrad

Okay, that's that is a tough one. But for me, I would probably say real life therapy for me, because the benefits next level, you know, it boosts my collagen and production, which means smoother, firmer skin for me, which is great for what I do. So I'm not going to be mad at that. It's it's great for also even more importantly, recovery muscle recovery, because I work out a lot. I work out at least three times a week doing resistance training. So that's usually beneficial for me. So red light therapy has already helped. I've found I've got a device or two devices actually that I use already and that has made a difference. So use that on the daily. It also helps with inflammation and pain and even with hair growth. And you know, it's not just about looking good for me. It's about feeling great. And I definitely feel like even having that Melanie, how you say you have the ambient sort of red light on while you're working away that I feel the same way. Like I just have it like playing. It only goes for 10 minutes at a time though. So I have to like time it and then put it on again. But that's part of my daily. I love it. That's probably the one hack that I would choose so far. Watch the space is probably going to be more to come. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's a really good choice. That's definitely in my, my running. This question is so hard and I'm so glad I don't ever have to actually do this. Like just picking one would be so I would be so hard. So thinking about it, I'm obsessed with my cryotherapy, but if I could only have one, then I could, I could like not go to cryotherapy every day and just do like a cold shower. Am I allowed to like, like tweak this? So like, basically I could, I could get it, you know, without the actual biohack form, which is like going into a cold chamber, but I would really miss it. Red light, that's really up there. The one thing that I like blue light walking glasses at night, but it's like, okay, well then I could just force myself to not look at screens at night. But one of the ones where like I travel and I just, it's really hard to not have that is my daily infrared sauna session. It's so profound the way it makes me feel. And I feel you go in, it feels so good and relaxing. You sweat, you sweat out all these toxins and you just feel cleansed on an internal cellular level after it. And when I travel, I'm like, Oh, I needed sauna sessions. So bad. So, and that's not something where I can, I guess you could sweat by like working out of the gym, but this I don't, I'm not going to do that. So it would be my sunlight in infrared sauna and for listeners. So I have the solo unit, which is where you lay down inside of it and your head is outside of it. So you can like do your work while you're in it or read or something like that. But they also have cabin units as well. Literally one of my favorite things in my entire life. And if you tell them I sent you Melanie Avalon, they'll give you a major discount. So sunlight in infrared sauna is my choice.

Barry Conrad

I've only done one infrared sauna before and that was last year at like a like a health and fitness joint nearby and it was it was amazing like it's different to it's so different to a regular like steam sauna like because you do feel like it's from the inside out and you do feel refreshed and you're sweating you know your butt off as well so it's it's quite a unique experience so I can see why you would go for that I actually forgot about that that's that's a really good one

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Did you feel like you wanted to get one of your own integrated into your life daily?

Barry Conrad

I did actually feel that and then I just and I made a note to like do it again and I just haven't but I think it would definitely be really relaxing too because I like I actually like the feeling of being hot when it's for a purpose I don't like feeling hot when I'm just you know at home that's why I like being cold just like you but it's a really it's a really good feeling isn't it?

Melanie Avalon

Wait, that is so true. So I do not like being hot. The only time is when I'm in a sauna because it's like a controlled environment for a purpose. You're, you're not sweating over yourself because you're like, it's, I don't like, I don't like sweating with clothes on. It's like, I don't like textures of that.

Barry Conrad

In the gym, you do that, though, so...

Melanie Avalon

Right, but I don't go to the gym. You don't do the gym, yeah. I don't like it. I'm thinking about it right now. It feels so disgusting. I think I'm like texture, but I don't like the texture of certain things on my body. I'm very sensitive to that.

Barry Conrad

What do you mean? Like, give me an example.

Melanie Avalon

like clothing and like sweat and not about it.

Barry Conrad

Do you like black, you know those black dresses that you wear to these awesome letouts, does that count?

Melanie Avalon

So dresses, I don't like pants because I don't like all that constrictive clothing on my body. So dresses are great because they're very flowy. They're maybe tight at top, but you know, or maybe they could be, they're not as constrictive. I could not be a man and wear pants all the time.

Barry Conrad

You know, now that you mentioned, I've actually never seen you wear pants in like in any post ever. Like, that's such a good point. Like, never seen you wear jeans, pants. Do you wear jeans?

Melanie Avalon

I do not like jeans. The last time I wore jeans was, so every year I post my annual Christmas tree getting video. One of the times I went, I was like, I'm gonna dress up like rustic to get this Christmas tree. So I wore jeans.

Barry Conrad

I actually can't picture it now. I actually can't picture you in like jeans and boots. I mean, jeans. Yeah. That's so interesting. Wow. There you go.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you're missing out Barry with the dresses.

Barry Conrad

Well, I feel it could be too breezy for me. I mean, it's, yeah, let's not keep going down that path. I'm just going to pass now.

Melanie Avalon

So, at any point, that's why I love the sauna because it's like you sweat and like this sweat immediately is, you know, you're naked, it's like whisked away onto towels. And then you're like out, you shower, it's all contained.

Barry Conrad

How many showers do you have a day like two three.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's such a good question. It depends how many sauna sessions I do in a day. How many do you do in a day? Well, I always do at least one long one, but sometimes I do two, sometimes I do three. I like taking sauna naps. That's a hack. That's a good biohack. So you can sleep. Yeah, because then you literally sleep and get a cardiovascular workout at the same time. Like what?

Barry Conrad

So cool. I'm trying to picture this device. I need to... Is this... Is it like a chamber? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

It's like a dome. So again, so Sunline makes cabin units like the stereotypical cabin units, but they make this solo unit. It's like a dome that you slide into.

Barry Conrad

Wow, that sounds awesome, actually.

Melanie Avalon

So yeah, I like, I've like set it up with my hulk and trap. So I put it on top of a twin bed, a twin bed frame that I got on Amazon, like a metal twin bed frame. So it's on top of that. So then I can store stuff underneath it. I got a little arm thing that I attached to it that holds my iPhone above my head to do like work. And then I got a standup fan. So I put a fan on my face. So then I don't even feel that hot cause I have the fan on my face. And if you want to take a nap, if you're like really exhausted, you can take a nap in there and you wake up and it's like you worked out. That's.

Barry Conrad

wild. You never told me this before until now in terms of the whole setup. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's really cool. So to answer your question, I take a shower in the morning and then however many sauna sessions, I take a shower after every one of those. So the most hours I take would be four, I guess, in a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I love showers.

Melanie Avalon

Do you end with a cold blast?

Barry Conrad

You know what? I've definitely started introducing that more because it's kind of my way of doing the cryotherapy, but it's not really. It's just more cold water therapy. Because cryo, from what I understand, is freezing. Freezing, freezing, freezing. But it definitely refreshes me doing it. I had a cold water shower today before doing the podcast after the gym. It wakes you up. Yeah. Didn't you hear it? I'm peppy. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

So awesome. Okay. Well, Jennifer, thank you for the question and thank you everybody else for your questions. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ipodcast.com and can go to ipodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get all of the stuff that we like at ipodcast.com slash stuff we like. Definitely follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is okay. Ready? Barry underscore Conrad, right? You got it. Yes. And on Instagram, our show is IF Podcast. So yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

I hope you all have an awesome day and something really great to break your fast and we'll talk to you next time.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

See you later!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Dec 29

Episode 402: Special Guest Mark Sisson, Born To Walk, Why You Should Stop Running, Peluva Barefoot Shoes, The Myth of Marathons, Fasting Weight Loss Benefits, The Problems With Shoes, How To Exercise, And More!

Welcome to Episode 402 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SPECIAL GUEST MARK SISSON

Mark Sisson is widely regarded as the founding father of the ancestral health movement. His number-one-ranked blog and Primal Health Coach Institute have paved the way for primal enthusiasts to take personal responsibility for their health. Known as a market-disrupting, innovative entrepreneur, Mark’s Primal Kitchen enterprise introduced healthy condiments to the marketplace for the first time, and was acquired by Kraft-Heinz in 2018. As one of the earliest proponents of barefoot-inspired living, Mark proceeded to launch Peluva five-toe minimalist footwear company (with his son Kyle) in 2021, and is now busy “changing the way the world walks.”

Mark, 71, has a BA in biology from Williams College and is a former world-class endurance athlete, with a 2:18 marathon and a fourth-place finish in the Hawaii Ironman World Triathlon Championships to his credit. Mark lives in Miami Beach, Florida, where enjoys Ultimate Frisbee, standup paddling, fat-tire beach bike rides, and a walking-oriented lifestyle.

Website | IG | Book: Born To Walk

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

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LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 402 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. Oh, my goodness. I am so excited about today's interview. We have a very, very special guest on today's show. It is a legend. He almost needs no introduction, but I will give him an introduction anyways. And he has a new book coming out, which honestly was a complete paradigm shift for me personally, and I think is going to affect so many lives. So I am here with Mark Sisson. Friends, I know you know who Mark Sisson is, but he is a legend in the primal sphere world. So he actually came up with the company, the Primal Kitchen Enterprise, which was acquired by Kraft Heinz, but people are probably pretty familiar with those products. He's a multiple New York Times bestselling author, the Primal Blueprint, Two Meals a Day that I had him on recently, or a while ago for Primal Endurance, so many incredible different books. And his newest book is called Born to Walk, the Broken Promises of the Running Boom and How to Slow Down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time. And okay, friends. So this book, I was really excited to read just based on the title alone. My personal history with running and listeners might have gathered this over the many years of me doing this show. But I am, I am not a runner. It's never really appealed to me. It doesn't make me feel good. And I always sort of felt a little guilty about that, especially when I would, you know, I see people who are really into running, which I think is amazing. Well, I guess we can talk about that. I think it's amazing if it makes people feel good, and it has a healthy place in their life. So I've always admired and respected that I've been really intrigued by things like people doing marathons. And at the same time, I was always a little bit suspicious about the health effects of things like marathons. All of that said, I also was a little bit aware of the barefoot movement and the minimalist shoe movement, but I really had no idea about the actual reasoning or science behind that. So friends, born to walk is going to completely answer all of your questions and give you a complete paradigm shift with all of this.

Melanie Avalon

Should you actually be running? We're going to talk about that. So Mark, thank you for all that you're doing and thank you so much for being here.

Mark Sisson

Thanks for having me, Melanie. What an introduction. I love it. So let's get into it.

Melanie Avalon

Literally, I've been wanting and needing to read your books since I'm having flashbacks now to like, what was it like when they would make us run the mile when you were in elementary school? I honestly think that was my least favorite day of school every single year. It just felt wrong doing it for me, even though ironically, I was one of the fastest students. But in any case, enough about me, you, your background with running. So you used to be a runner. Could you tell listeners a little bit about your background? Also, I am dying to know when was the last time you ran a mile?

Mark Sisson

Well, so, yeah, I was a runner. I was one of those people who gravitated toward running in the late 1960s, early 70s. Not because it was a fad, but because it was the only sport available to me. I was a skinny, scrawny kid, too small for basketball or football or baseball or hockey. I grew up in Maine. I actually wound up jogging to and from school every day for years just as a way to get home before the bus could ever get me there. So it was a form of transportation early on. When I was in high school, as a freshman, I went out for the track team, and I found myself able to win both the mile and the two-mile event in most of the track meets I entered as a result of my lifestyle, which was running to and from school, like some Rift Valley East African story you might hear. Over the years, I developed this ability. I was a runner. I was somebody, one of the very few, it turns out, genetically gifted to be able to handle that amount of mileage in minimalist shoes. Because in those days, in the late 60s and early 70s, there were no cushioned running shoes. They were just Chuck Taylors. And eventually, there was a Japanese shoe called the Onitsuka Tiger, which was a very minimalist shoe. It had a quarter-inch thick sole, and so you felt the ground every time your foot landed. There was no cushioning. There was no, you know, rear foot motion control, mid-foot stabilizers, or any of the stuff that they claimed to be beneficial in today's running shoes. So I was a runner, and I was one of many runners in the 70s who self-selected to be runners. And I turned into a pretty decent marathoner. I finished fifth in the U.S. National Championships in 1980. I went on to compete in the Ironman Triathlon. But eventually, I had to retire because of injuries. I was injured largely as a result of the excess mileage I was doing, largely as a result of the shoes that I was wearing. These cushioned, eventually, I started wearing these big thick cushioned shoes that Nike was developing. Those caused problems. And I got to the point where I could no longer train at an elite level, and I turned my attention to other things in life, like figuring out how everyone could be strong and lean and fit with the least amount of pain and suffering and sacrifice and all of the negative words that we use to describe what we think it takes to become fit. And that's what started me down this path of the Primal Blueprint and Primal Kitchen and writing books, you know, across the sphere of health and wellness. But I was, and to answer your question, I haven't run a mile in 30 years. And it was a recognition that humans are not really born to run, we are born to walk. And so much of my strategy, my anti-aging strategy, my fitness strategy, certainly my health strategy over the past few decades has focused on lots of vigorous, robust walking, some time spent in the gym lifting weights, a little bit of time sprinting once in a while, and I will differentiate the concept of sprinting from regular running.

Mark Sisson

Running is a, you know, we're certainly born to be able to run, Melanie, but we're not born to run metronomically day in and day out at an eight or a nine or a 10 minute per mile pace over a lifetime. The book sort of was born out of this recognition that there are so many frustrated people who took on running because they heard it was the best way to improve cardiovascular health or the best way to live longer or the best way to lose weight. And it's not any of those, it's a horrible way to lose weight. There are 50 different ways, better ways to achieve cardiovascular fitness without the injury tendency that runners get. And there's a hundred different activities that are much more fun. And your experience, which was one of, I think, a very common one, which was, gosh, I think I should be running because people around me are running and there's all sorts of hype surrounding running and how it's supposed to be this great activity. And yet you found yourself kind of second guessing it every time you went out the door. And I, you know, I think a lot of people share this feeling like, okay, I'll do it. If I have to struggle and I have to suffer, I'll do it, but I don't really want to do it. There are things I'd rather do. And I'm here to give everybody permission to walk again. Walking is the quintessential human movement. It's what everybody should be doing as much as possible, as often as possible. Anybody can do it from the least healthy, most pain-ridden person right up into an elite athlete. Everybody can walk and should walk.

Melanie Avalon

I was actually reflecting on walking yesterday because I was flying back from Vegas, so I was sitting for four and a half hours on a plane and then I was in the airport and I was just walking through the terminal and I was like walking feels so good. It was just like this intuitive moment where I was like it is doing so much good for my body right now. So question about our evolution and the genetics and all the things because, and you mentioned this a second ago, but so we do have adaptations for running and you talked about this in the book. So we have like an upright stature ability. We have long limbs, narrow pelvis, slender frame, efficient thermoregulatory potential, lots of other things, powerful glutes, short toes. So clearly evolution takes a long time to happen and presumably you have to be doing a lot for us to evolve certain features. So like you said, we did evolve with the ability to run. Why were we not doing it more than it sounds like we were doing it? And then for people like you who you said you did have this genetic tendency to run. So is there a certain subtype of humans who were running more evolutionarily?

Mark Sisson

Yeah, so that's a great question. So a lot of the hype around running and humans being, quote, born to run, there was a book came out in 2010 by Chris McDougall that posited that humans are born to run and described persistence hunters in the early days of Africa, these early humans who would track a beast for an hour or two hours or three hours and outlast the beast in the heat of the desert and then be able to walk up and stick a spear in them at the end of this long tracking expedition. But bear in mind, number one, those individuals weren't running seven minute miles for three hours. They were walking and hiding and crouching and jogging a little bit and tracking and sprinting and combining all these methods that require a large human brain and opposable thumbs to make the tools to create the spears to be able to do this. So that they could kill a beast and have food for a couple of days. They didn't do this every day. In fact, it was antithetical to life until about a hundred years ago that you would go out and run mileage every single day for no reason whatsoever. These were individual pre-humans and early humans who by virtue of their lifestyle, which comprised walking a lot. But no chairs, no couches, no sofas, no TVs, they walked a lot. And that's what gave them the capacity between the walking and the lifting of heavy things. They carried stones, they carried logs, they built things, they climbed up things to look out and see what was going on. They carried babies, they lugged carcasses back to camp. They were always lifting heavy things and they sprinted once in a while. Now when they sprinted, it was typically a life or death situation. It was like, oh my God, there's something trying to kill me. I better run away. That's so that this combination of lifestyle where there was a lot of low level activity, a lot of walking around like literally minute by minute, day by day, that kept an aerobic capacity. Then lifting heavy things, which was the compliment today is go to the gym and lift weights twice a week and sprinting once in a while, not every day, but once in a while they had to ramp their effort up to 100% of max to continue to live and pass the genes along to the next generation. So the idea that we're persistence hunters has been sort of glorified. And I think the anthropological evidence has been misconstrued to suggest that we are born to run. We're born to walk clearly and we're born to sprint a little bit, but we're born to be able to run, but not run metronomically day in and day out and certainly not given the shape of 75% of this country, which is overweight. Now my own genetic capabilities. So one of the things I say in the book is that probably only five or 2% of the population is even genetically capable of being able to run day in and day out as a form of, quote, recreation, end quote. But until 100 years ago, no one would have chosen to do that. Even the fittest and skinniest humans would not have said, oh, I'm just gonna go run 10 miles for no reason whatsoever because I feel like it's gonna make me healthy.

Mark Sisson

It was the exact opposite. Expending that amount of energy in a world where energy food was scarce was completely antithetical to health and to survival. So this idea that we can use running as a means of raising our heart rate and try to offset the lifestyle that we've created for ourselves, which has a lot of leisure time, a lot of sitting in chairs at desks, sitting on couches, watching TV, doing all these things that we tend to do, I guess it served a purpose in getting people off the couches. But over the past 50 years, what's happened is, and I'll tell you, it's just a really interesting, perfect storm of events that happened to create this running boom in the first place. As I said, in the 1970s, the only people who ran were runners, were people who were, like me, genetically gifted, skinny, ectomorphs, great lungs, a propensity to manage discomfort well, because running is managing discomfort. and they're basically masochists, it was almost always in pursuit of some goal like winning a race. So, up until the mid-70s, the only runners were people who were runners. The only people who ran or trained or jogged were people who were actually trying to race and attract meat or had selected that as their sport. Now, this is where it gets interesting. In the early 70s, Bill Bowerman, who's the coach of the Oregon Track Club and Olympic trials team coach, realizes that many of the skinny American runners who are trying to compete on the world scene are getting injured because the shoes they're wearing are not built for 80 or 90 miles a week of training, and that was what it was determined you needed to do in order to compete on the world scene. So, Bill Bowerman and Phil Knight, who eventually founded Nike, became the CEO of Nike, created a specific, very thick, sold shoe that would allow skinny runners with good form to be able to run more miles in their training so that they could compete on the world circuit. Okay, that's point number one. Point number two is around that time, Bill Bowerman had gone to New Zealand. He had seen that the fit people in New Zealand were doing this thing they were calling jogging. They were going out and running miles for no particular purpose. So, Bowerman wrote a book called Jogging. Then in 1968, Ken Cooper revolutionized the concept of cardiovascular health by writing a book called Aerobics, and the book Aerobics, which has sold, I think, 30 million copies to date, it posited that the more of an activity that you did that raised your heart rate, the better it would be for your heart's strength and the longer you would live. And so, people started thinking, okay, I'm going to start doing this aerobic activity, and the easiest way to do this was running. So now, along comes, now we have the thick shoes, which are enabling people to run and not have their feet tell them that's way too many miles, because these thick cushioned shoes are absorbing some of the shock.

Mark Sisson

We've got books, and eventually Jim Ficks writes a book called The Book of Running, and he popularizes running. And the next thing you know, Frank Shorter wins a gold medal in Munich. Bill Rogers sets an American record in the Boston Marathon, and now everybody's excited about running as this new health pursuit. And remember, the 70s and into the late 70s and early 80s was the me decade. It came after the counterculture of the 60s. It was now the me decade. It's all about me. It's all about trying to self-help and all the things that accompany that. So this cultural zeitgeist pushed everybody into running. But even in the 80s, we still didn't have the rates of obesity and overweight that we do today. So even in the 80s, more people started running. These new shoes came on the scene. They started to allow people to put in more miles. It seemed like a good idea. I was one of them. It seemed like a good idea to me. I was still racing at a high level. But more and more people would started taking up this nascent sport in the interest of losing weight, improving cardiovascular health, some meditative aspects that were discussed. They were all manner of purported health benefits to doing this. And yet, the number of running injuries increased. Why did it increase? Because people were running with bad form, and they were using these cushioned shoes to enable their bad form. When you run barefoot, Melanie, when you run down the sidewalk barefoot, I don't care how untrained you are, how overweight you are, your feet automatically tell your entire kinetic chain exactly how to absorb the shock. And when you're running barefoot, you don't heel strike. If you're running barefoot, you're running with a well-defined midfoot gait and doesn't last very long because you're not trained to do it, but if you were to take shoes off any untrained person, have them run down the sidewalk, they would run with pretty good form, barefoot. Put some shoes on those people and all of a sudden you see the heel striking, the slapping of the pavement, the plotting, the noise and that's where you start to get the injuries. So running, even to this day, now we fast forward to today where we have these thick, thick, thick, cushioned, pillowy running shoes, there's no decrease in the amount of running injuries. 50% of everyone who calls themselves a runner is injured every year. And at any one point in time, 25% of all runners are injured. It's a worse injury record than ENFL. So when we're talking about injuries, we're talking about bone bruises, we're talking about Achilles tendon issues, we're talking about plantar fasciitis, we're talking about chondromalacia of the knees, we're talking about tendonitis throughout the hips. All of these are almost like, I would say almost all if not all, are related to the shoes they're wearing, the bad form and the tendency to overdo it because the mind goes, I'm a runner, I have to get out and do my three miles or my five miles or my six miles.

Mark Sisson

So now we have the spate of injuries. Then we also can talk about running as a weight loss strategy. It's horrible. Most, if you go to a marathon, which is the quintessential bucket list item for a lot of people, and you look at a marathon like Los Angeles or Chicago or Boston, you see 40 or 50,000 people lined up in the starting line, 80% of them are overweight. I got a question for you. If you claim to be a marathoner and you've been training for this 26.2 mile event, why are you overweight? Why are you still overweight? Because the type of training you're undergoing is causing your body to burn mostly sugar and hold on to its fat stores so that when you finish a workout, your brain goes, we have to eat. We don't know how to burn fat. We've gone out and we've trained too hard for the fitness level that we're at. And now the brain says we have to compensate by overeating calories. And so somebody might go out and run seven miles and burn off 750 calories in that workout. But the body and the brain immediately goes, oh, we're gonna make up for that. We're gonna consume 800 calories because if this fool's gonna do it again tomorrow, we have to be ready. So over time, you will see people who have been running for a long time and still have the same 10 or 30 pounds to lose. I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? So those are two examples. I've got many more in the book of all of the reasons that running has a spate of broken promises, unfulfilled expectations, left people feeling guilty because they tried it, they thought they could do it, they didn't have what it took, and they moped away thinking they'd failed when in fact, if they had engaged in a well-thought-out robust walking program, they would have lost the weight, they would have felt better about themselves, their mood would have been elevated, their digestion would have improved, their mental clarity would be better. I mean, all of the things that we sought from a running program and didn't get were always available from a well-thought running program that certainly combined two days a week in the gym lifting weights and a little bit of sprinting.

Melanie Avalon

So in the book you go through the entire history of running like you touched on there and there's also the myth of the of the marathon.

Mark Sisson

Oh, that's a great one. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Can you tell listeners a little bit about that?

Mark Sisson

You know, this is the, again, it's the metric a lot of people use. It's the bucket list item. There are people who, you know, have their marathon finisher medals, hanging at their desk at work. They're so proud of the achievement. And they should be it's an amazing achievement. But it was fabricated out of thin air. So the original story, as was told, inappropriately by the industry in the late in the late 70s, early 70s, was that there's this guy Fadipides, and he was a hemorrhodromae, which was a messenger for the army. And when Athens, you know, there was a there was a the battle of Athens had happened in marathon. And he had to run to Sparta to announce, well, the original story was that he, they had this huge battle. And after fighting for three days, he ran to Athens, 25 miles to Athens, and collapsed in the middle of the town square after saying, Rejoice, rejoice, we've won. And so the original story was this guy ran, he fought for three days, he, he ran 25 miles, he collapsed in the square. And, and so that was the, that was the the heroics of the original story of Fadipides. The problem was that was taken from a poem by Robert Browning, who used a tremendous amount of poetic license to describe this hero and create a myth around him. The fact is that this guy ran from the battlefield, 103 miles to ask for assistance, the town that he was at was having a that he ran into to ask for assistance was having some feast and they said, Well, we we can't go we can't we can't help you because we're in the middle of a festival. And we have to, you know, we have to wait three days, and it's going to take us then four days to get there. So he has to take this guy, Fadipides has to take a nap and run all the way back to the battlefield to announce to the generals, yeah, these guys can't show up, they can't, they're not going to help us. So we're on our own. Now, they, they wound up winning the battle, but the guy ran 306 miles in 36 hours. That's the real history of Fadipides. So if you really want to honor this guy, you would you would not be running 26.2 miles, you'd be running 306 miles. But then it gets it gets a little even weirder. So because of the original myth, the original Olympic Games in 1996 Olympic Games in Greece said, we should have a marathon run. And so they had a 26.2 mile, sorry, a 25 mile marathon run. And that was that was the marathon distance, until the Olympics was held in London a few years later, and they wanted the event to finish in front of Windsor Castle. And in order to do that, they had to extend the race to 26.2 miles. So that's how the that's how the distance came to be 26.2 is because a queen wanted to see the finish, not because of the distance from from the planes of marathon to Athens, and not because of anything that this heroic guy Fadipides did. The point being that the entire distance is just a fabrication. It's it's drawn out of thin air, based on a poem by a 19th century poet, who wanted to honor this guy with his poetry. And yet, millions of people every year, pay their 300 bucks to enter this race, beat themselves up horribly.

Mark Sisson

And then, you know, take their finishers medal because they're they think they're honoring this this feat by this one guy. Anyway, this, we have a lot of these stories in the book about how, how the assumptions about what went before us created this running boom, that really ultimately was based on fabrications. And I think, you know, later on, again, that the running shoe industry, marketing these thick, sold, cushioned running shoes as being better for you, may be the worst thing that happened to running because more injuries as a result of these bad shoes, encouraging bad form. So anyway, we're back to walking is the quintessential human movement is the best thing we can do. It's the cornerstone of anybody's longevity program, for sure. I mean, even if you look at my friend, Dan Buettner, who I don't know if you know, Dan, but he's the author of The Blue Zones. Dan's my downstairs neighbor in my building.

Melanie Avalon

Oh really? What a building to live in.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, and Dan and I talk, you know, we talk a lot about it. But, you know, we argue over things like meat versus, you know, beans at the as the center piece of the diet. But we certainly agree that walking and outdoor activity is that is this probably the single greatest determinant of people living to 100 years old. So if you're thinking about longevity, walking is a far better choice than running. We have a whole chapter in the book about how really good runners tend to get into cardiovascular problems after decades of running as a result of running too hard, too long, too far, you know, too often and raising their heart rate too much. So running is not even a great longevity strategy for most people. And again, when I talk about most people, I'm saying there are some people like me and even I was on the cusp of being genetically appropriate for running. Most of your elite runners. Look, here's the thing, running is catabolic running tears muscle tissue down. That's why even in the 10,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, even in the endurance persistence hunting group, they recognize that it was catabolic that it would that it would tear you down and you could only do it once in a while in search of sustenance of food, a protein that would build you back up. So the idea that early humans would go out and, you know, we killed an animal yesterday. Our bellies are full. I know let's go out and run six miles. No, they never would have done that.

Melanie Avalon

It's really crazy hearing that marathon story. It's crazy just as a general theme in life, how many things we do today are based on really arbitrary, like random things. And it just becomes so important. And if we look back to the origin, it's not what we thought. And I just feel like I like learn more about that every day. We just was so many things in life. So yeah, no, that's completely crazy.

Mark Sisson

Well you and I have bumped up against this in the community that we're in right now, in the diet and nutrition community. Go back to the 1980s when fat was the enemy, eating fat made you fat, and that the best possible meal you could eat was boneless, skinless chicken breast. You know, and all of a sudden cut to today when, nah, I need the skin on the chicken because I want the collagen, I need the fat on the meat, I need, you know, it's like but we assumed that fat made you fat and that assumption carried for 20 years even though there was no basis at all in fact on that. So you're right, so many of our cultural norms are based on myths, it's bizarre.

Melanie Avalon

Here's one for you, not related at all to health and wellness, but do you know why we have margins on paper? This blew my mind.

Mark Sisson

to be able to make notes. Not why.

Melanie Avalon

No. So like back in the day, living conditions were so horrible, it was completely normal to just have rats in your house. So rats would like chew at people's paper at night and like take away the words. So they started putting margins on paper so you could allow space for the rats to chew the paper.

Mark Sisson

That's pretty interesting. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. But it makes total sense, yeah. Now it meant you connect the dots in reverse, right?

Melanie Avalon

You know, I've never looked at paper the same way again. Something else interesting about, just speaking about this evolution of humans, I was really interested to learn in the book that going back to when we were hunter-gatherers and you talk about the Hadza tribe that are still around today, apparently they burn the same amount of energy as like sedentary people do here. And it's because we burn, you talk about this like inflammatory energy that people who are sedentary burn. Yeah, so what's happening with that?

Mark Sisson

Well, there's a couple of things happening with that. Number one, the Hadza spend a lot of their time not doing much, right? Low level activity. When I say not doing much, they're still walking around, but they're resting and sitting and walking. And then they do their persistence hunt, but they don't do the hunt every day, right? So their average energy output isn't that much greater than an athlete training today or a sedentary person today. Meanwhile, and we know this, you and I know this from the intermittent fasting community, from the metabolic flexibility community, that when you eat appropriately, you become more metabolically flexible, you become metabolically efficient, and you don't need as many calories to maintain muscle mass, build muscle mass, never get sick, have all the energy you need all the time, and most importantly, not be hungry. So the converse of that is the people around us who go through life with this idea that I'm gonna see how much food I can eat and not gain weight. What's the most amount of food I can eat and not gain weight? And so people tend to overeat in a way that their bodies respond to in one of two ways. Either they eventually gain weight, or in many cases, the body says, I'm not prepared to store this as fat, but I don't wanna, this is too much energy, and so I'm just gonna rev higher all day long. I'm going to increase the metabolism, whether it's the thermic-effective food, or whether it's just increasing basal metabolic rate to burn off the excess calories that I'm taking in. And so these people can take in 3,500 or 4,000 calories a day, maintain body weight for a while, not be that active. And it's pretty much on the equivalent of what the Hadza would eat in a very otherwise active day. Humans do have sort of a shared baseline set point, but they can manipulate it somewhat with exercise. But what we see with even elite athletes is that there's this compensatory mechanism where, yes, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna run for two hours, and in those two hours, I'm gonna burn 2,000 extra calories, but then I'm gonna get home, and I'm not gonna do much for the rest of the day. So my body's gonna cut back on its energy expenditure so that at the end of the day, I haven't really burned that many more calories than a sedentary person, which is another reason why this concept of weight loss, running for weight loss, doesn't really work, because, as I said, you go out, you burn the calories, and typically the calories you burn as a non-elite runner, as an avid jogger or a person who just incorporates running into their lifestyle, you go out and you burn calories, but most of them are sugar calories, most of them are glycogen stored in your muscles. And so you get home, and not only do you tend to overcompensate by overeating and consuming carbs, you actually carbolode on a regular basis as a result of that, but then you compensate throughout the rest of the day by doing less.

Mark Sisson

Maybe you choose not to go outside and rake the leaves, or you choose to not walk your dog the mile that you normally walk the dog, but now you walk them down to the mailbox and back. Or your kids say, hey, dad, let's go out and throw the football, and you go, eh, not right now, I gotta rest up for tomorrow's run. So there's all these compensatory mechanisms that, in many cases, they're not even conscious decisions, they're unconscious choices that we find ourselves making that ultimately wind up having us expending really, at the end of the day, no more energy than the average couch potato might expend.

Melanie Avalon

It's so crazy. And I think it really speaks to the power of the input side of things. So what you're eating, which especially I think we see that effect with intermittent fasting, how powerful it is compared to the trying to burn off the calories with exercise and things like that. And also even with like, GLP ones, regardless of the controversy around them, I think they do show one thing they show that people eating less seems to be effective for weight loss.

Mark Sisson

Go figure, right? Yeah, but I think that's the greatest thing I learned from initially from Primal Blueprint and then from Keto and now from Accommodation of Keto and IF is that I don't need that much in the way of energy. Like I surprise myself on how robust I am and how much muscle mass I maintain on 30 or 40% fewer calories than I consumed even as recently as 15 years ago. And it's just a testament to a couple of things. Number one, the quality of food you eat, the quality of the calories, the amount of protein you take in, but also the ability of your body to access stored body fat on a regular basis without skipping a beat, not noticing that you're hungry or hangry. I mean, that's one of the most magical feelings there is, is to not be tethered to hunger, appetite and cravings. It is the best. It is, yeah, it is the best. And I wish I could give that to people. That's the superpower I wish I could give to people because it's so freeing, yeah. And, and, and, so now let's tie that in with walking. So walking is an energy efficient exercise. It is 100% fat burning for almost everybody unless you walk so fast with a weight vest on uphill that you, you know, you start burning glycogen. But anybody who goes out for a walk is burning mostly fat. And in the book, we give a number of metrics on how to determine what your fat max heart rate is. Like what's the heart rate? The maximum heart rate below which you are burning 90% of your calories are coming from your stored body fat. And, and, and in that regard, one of the reasons that walking works so well for people trying to lose weight is whenever you do encounter a hunger episode rather than walk to the refrigerator to grab a snack, go outside and walk 15 minutes and feel your body releasing its adipose tissue and combusting it as fuel. And you will come back from that walk a little bit more energized and less hungry. So it's an amazing hack, if you will, I hate that word but it's amazing hack for, for hunger.

Melanie Avalon

I have a two-part intuition question related to this. So one relates to this and one relates to the shoes, but they're both intuition. So you do talk extensively in the book about this Fat Max concept, and listeners definitely get the book. There's so much information in it that we're not even remotely touching on, but there's a lot of ways to determine your level and measuring it, and there's all these things. And so my question is, because you do say in the book that even you emphasize the importance of really monitoring that number so that you don't go above it in your training, and you say that even going above it like a little bit can undo the benefits you were looking for, I think. I might be paraphrasing a little bit. But so my question is, how intuitive, if we want to embrace this type of movement that will best burn fat, and we are going a little bit faster than walking, because I'm assuming walking will keep us in the okay zone, how intuitive can we be with that? Do we actually really need to monitor everything, or can we be intuitive?

Mark Sisson

Great question. So one example would be, if you're jogging, if you think that you like to run, you want to run, you're defending your right to run, and you want to go out once in a while and run, and you want to stay within that fat max fat burning zone, one way to do it is to go with a friend and carry on a conversation. And as long as you can carry on a conversation, you're probably at or below fat max. Once you are huffing and puffing and unable to carry on a conversation, that's an indication that your oxygen consumption has increased, and now you're into burning glycogen and getting away from the fat burning zone. Now, I don't want to tell people that you've completely negated all of the benefits of a workout. What I'm saying is it compromises that training effort at staying in the fat burning zone. It doesn't negate, it doesn't destroy it doesn't oh my god, I screwed up and now I have to go back to square one. No, it's just the more time you can spend at that in a particular workout staying at or below that fat max heart rate, chalk that whole workout up, or that long walk or whatever it is to okay, today I just worked on fat burning, then when you go do your high intensity stuff, which I do recommend, then you can go all out. And you'll that now that's the time where you can really like hit it hard and nail it. The problem with almost every runner and I was one of the worst. And if we first talked about this in primal endurance, I don't know if you read that book, Melanie, but that came out a bunch of years ago, a while ago, like when it came out. And the problem is that people wind up training in what we call the black hole of training or the no man's land, where their heart rate is is too high to be promoting aerobic capacity, capillary perfusion, fat mobilization and fat burning too high for that, but too low to be really focusing on VO two max and power and strength and speed. So all you're doing is practicing hurting. And so, and it just makes me want to cry. Because I see these people who are out there huffing and puffing every single day. And they never get better. They never improve. And you'd say, well, you know, at some point, you stop improving. Well, look, if you're, if you're that slower runner, two things are going on. Number one, you better improve. Because theoretically, you're doing this because you want to get better at your life, you want to run faster times in your 10 k's, your marathons. And if your whole life is based around, well, I do, and I hear this a lot, I do six marathons a year, I'm like, okay, that's interesting. You know, what, what's your personal best? Well, I've run 345, 344, 342, 346. And my thought process is, first of all, I was a career runner, I ran 100 miles a week for seven years, I've never run that long in my life, I never spent that much time running in my life. So God bless you for hurting that much. And number two, if you're not getting better, something isn't working in your program, why would you go repeat, no offense, a bad performance over and over again, just what to collect more hardware? I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

Mark Sisson

And in the meantime, you're getting injured, injured, you're courting injury, you're not losing the the body fat you wanted to lose. In fact, what happens with a lot of these types of runners is they, they shift their body mass from they decrease their, their muscle mass, and they increase their fat, even though their weight stays the same, they become what we call skinny fat. Running is catabolic running tears you up. There's no question about it. So every workout you do running, running tears you up. Yeah. Now you go to the gym and you can build some of that weight back. But walking is anabolic walking is at the very least anti catabolic walking does not tear you down, it builds you up. So you'll even see the best bodybuilders in the world who are very careful about not losing a single bit of muscle like this, they work so hard to put their muscle on. They'll walk after a workout to burn fat, they won't run. No way they won't run, but they will walk after workout because they know that it's not catabolic. It is, it's at the very least anabolic at the very least it's preserving muscle tissue while they're burning fat.

Melanie Avalon

And to that point of people putting themselves into this seemingly unnecessary suffering, we do know there's this endorphin high and you talk about the different neurotransmitters in the book and it reminds me of the work of, I don't know if you know Dr. Loretta Bruning, but she's done a lot of work and I've had her on the show a few times about the different neurotransmitters and why we have them and like, but basically their beneficial role like serotonin and dopamine oxytocin. She doesn't even talk about endorphins in her books because she emphasizes that the point of them is they're in a response to like pain and a problem. So they're not something we should be like seeking to increase.

Mark Sisson

So, you know, how did we animals in general evolve endorphin? Well it's probably to maintain a calm, peaceful attitude in the face of death or in the face of a life or death moment. So you know, you've tracked a beast through the heat of the desert all day for three and a half hours and you failed to kill the beast, endorphins. Rather than lie down and wallow and die, the endorphins give you a little bit of sense of hope, a little bit of peace and calm, like okay, you know, try again tomorrow. Endorphins are released when, I hate to say it, but you see these nature shows where the lion is eating the zebra while the zebra is still alive, endorphins. That's what endorphins are keeping the zebra from, you know, eventually the zebra says, alright, it's over, I'm going to die a peaceful death, endorphins. So the seeking of these endorphins is a, again, a false promise. It's like trying to recreate, chasing the high as they say, right? So the first couple of times it's like, oh my God, it felt so good after the run and eventually you chase that high and the next thing you know is I was chasing the high and I got injured because I, I mean this is, this is, I didn't talk about it in the book, but this is what happened to me at the end of my running career. I was so high on endorphins. I had five days in a row in 1980 when I ran 20 miles each day and each day I ran 20 miles faster than a previous day and I was so in the zone and so high and I wasn't recognizing that I was in a life or death situation and I wound up getting injured to the point I got hip tendonitis that never, it didn't resolve until probably 30 years later and that was the end of my, my, my elite running career. Now, when I say elite running career, I could, I could still run really well as a human being, but I couldn't participate at a world-class level anymore and I couldn't train that hard because of what I'd done to myself and part of it was a result of the, not just the endorphins, but it was the injury that I got from the shoes that were, here's a story for you. I'll take a side step here and say, when I first got my thick cushioned running shoes, they felt great. I ran a lot in them and I got severe chondromalacia, severe knee pains and I sat my senior year of college out cross-country season, walked around campus with a cane until I got orthotics. I was a miracle cure with orthotics, okay, so I get these orthotics and now the orthotics are raising my arches up enough that the overpronation that I was experiencing from the shoes without the arches, that was prevented and so I ran for a few more years with orthotics until my hip gave out because what had happened was the cushioning and the lack of proprioception and input to the bottom of my feet,

Mark Sisson

the initial problem went all the way up to my knees. I fixed that by putting a wedge in my shoes and then when I wedge my shoes and it bypassed my knees, it went up to the hip and this is what we see and this is part of the, one of the chapters has to do with footwear and why we get injured and why modern running footwear is so bad for people and it's definitely, and it's even bad for people who are walking and we'll talk about that. Your foot needs to feel the ground, it needs, the foot needs to sense the texture and the tilt of the ground underneath in order to inform the brain of exactly how to orchestrate the kinetic chain from the bottoms of the feet to the point where the brain now says, okay, here's how much we scrunch the arch around that rock or here's how much we bend the toes over that stick we're walking on. Here's how much we roll the ankle out a little bit to take pressure off the knees from having to bend sideways. Here's how much we bend the knee and it's normal, Sagittario plane forward and back. Here's how much we rotate the hip to absorb the shock. Here's how deep we bend the knee in order to absorb the shock of this jump. All of this information comes from bare feet, from these perfectly formed organs that we have at the end of our legs, these feet that are our main contact with the universe. They're our main contact with the ground, with the universe and our feet want to feel everything underneath in order to orchestrate this perfect kinetic chain. You put thick cushioned stiff sole shoes that enclose the feet and scrunch the big toe against all the other toes instead of allowing it to splay outward which is what it really wants to do and the next thing you know you you you bypass all that important information and the brain has to guess okay I guess I bend the knee sideways I don't know I guess I you know tilt the hip a little bit to absorb the shock but without that important sensory information people get injured you know an injury it's an injury is your body's way of saying you're doing it wrong so if 50% of runners get injured every year they're doing it wrong something's happening but that they're doing it wrong and I'm here to say nobody gets injured walking like unless you're you know hiking on a on a rocky path and you slip on a whatever but but generally walking nobody gets injured in fact when you're injured running how do you recover from your running injury you walk

Melanie Avalon

I'm having a flashback now, and I will say, the section in the book about the shoes, I don't even, okay, I don't like wearing shoes, I don't ever wear now, I don't ever wear running type shoes. I don't like my foot to feel constricted, so I mostly wear sandals, so we can talk about that. But I'm having flashbacks to high school or college, and I wore these shoes, I think they were Skechers, and they were called Tone Ups, and they were supposed to like make you, they're unstable I think, so they're supposed to make your muscles better, but they actually really hurt my knees. I was getting flashbacks to that.

Mark Sisson

example of of a marketing hype that now here's how those came about this is really interesting so in the early 2000s there was a movement toward minimalist footwear I was an early adopter of minimalist footwear I was the original one of the original guys wearing the five toed shoes the Vibram five fingers I had 20 pair of them in my closet I had different colors and different styles I wore them everywhere to my wife's chagrin weddings and funerals you name it I was this is what I wore a lot of people were like-minded a book came out that year called born to run and that's where I got my title born to walk because I'm trying to refute what Chris McDougal wrote in born to run he's a great author and he's a great storyteller and much of what he writes about the book is accurate and one of the things he writes about is that modern footwear modern shoes are too thick and they are causing runners injuries so a lot of people went to to buy minimalist footwear there were several companies startup companies in the 2008 910 era and minimalist shoes were all of a sudden really big and people read his book and they they said wow I'm a good runner I'll go out and run seven miles my first run in these thin thin thin flat flexible shoes well people got injured they got injured at alarming rates because they've been spending decades running in thick cushioned shoes with their toes and feet atrophied and all of the work being done from their ankles up and now they put on these minimalist shoes expecting their arches to work in a way without any arch support that they've never done before expecting their toes to work in a way they hadn't really worked out and so people got injured and so there was a there was a point here where there was a backlash against minimalist footwear and people said well you know it's just it seems like it's not working well it didn't work because it wasn't sold appropriately should have been sold okay walking these shoes a lot if you're gonna run in them run a quarter mile the first day a half a mile the next time you run but do not under any circumstances go out and run hard in these until you have spent a year training your feet what happened was there was a backlash against the minimalist shoe movement and because footwear is such a huge industry a number of people said oh here's our chance if minimalist footwear doesn't work we're gonna make maximalist footwear and that's where MBT Maasai basic training shoes came in that's where Hoka got started that's where you know Nike and New Balance and Adidas and they all started making thick thick thick cushioned running shoes as as literally a knee-jerk reaction to the minimalist footwear movement having been inappropriately sold at the wrong time so Skechers comes along and they say okay if the concept of the minimalist footwear movement was legit which was we want to work your feet more we want the muscles of your feet to be working more and so we're gonna put them in a thin shoe with lots of room for the toes to move around and that'll strengthen your feet Skechers said what if we put your feet on a Bosu ball and now we don't now you're working the muscles of your feet but you're working them in a different way so it was a interesting idea but the execution was horrible and like you said so many people got lower back pains they got because again you remove all of the haptic sensory input to the bottoms of feet now you really remove it now it's really thick and rocker and now the shoe is forcing you to walk in a certain way and your brain has to guess like okay how much you know how much do I roll my ankle or how much do I have to bend my knee sideways to absorb the shock of this or or my lower back is is is hurting because my stabilizer muscles are overworking because I've scrunched my big toe against the other the other toes in the shoe and I've disengaged my big toe from my glute let's take a sidebar here Melanie let's talk about the big toe or what we call the great toe and the glute bodybuilders have recognized this for a long time there's a direct connection between activating fully activating the glutes and having your big toe be able to abduct to pull itself away from your feet So in the gym,

Mark Sisson

they will say, the saying goes, great toe, great ass. And what that means is, that's why you see bodybuilders and weight lifters and really serious people about lifting, taking their shoes off on days they do deadlifts and squats and lunges and things like that, because they want to engage, they want the big toe to splay outwardly in order to fully engage the glute. They want to build the glute, the glute's one of the largest, strongest muscles in the body. You want to engage it. And if you're wearing shoes when you do this activity and you're compressing the big toe against the other toes, squeezing it against the other toes in a shoe or even in a tight sock for that matter, you are not able to fully engage the glute. And then what happens is, when you do the work, when you do the heavy work of a squat or a deadlift even or any of these other lower body focused movements, when you do that, you disengage the big toe from the glute. And now the stabilizer muscles near around the glute have to take on some of the work. And that's where you start injuries there and you start to get problems. So the big toe needs to splay outwardly. It needs to be able to what we call abduct. Abduct is taking it away from the body. Adduct, ADD, is pushing it into the body. Toes need to, they want to splay outward. They should splay outward. So barefoot is always the best way to go. But in the absence of barefoot, having a five-toed minimalist shoe is the second best choice.

Melanie Avalon

Speaking of the shoes and constricting the toe, that was another completely, I think, arbitrary thing. You talk in the book about the narrow shoes going back to peasant times and being rich or not.

Mark Sisson

Yes. So in the days of old where there were caste systems and there were peasants and there were nobility, peasants wore wide toed shoes. They wore wide toes because they were out in the fields working. They needed their feet to do work. The foot was critical to any movement they did, whether you're plowing a field, mowing a field, gathering wood, chopping trees, whatever it was, you need a wide base to initiate whatever action it is. Meanwhile, the nobility wore thin, tight, pointy shoes for no other reason than a fashion statement to tell the world that they were nobility, that they didn't have to work, that they were not peasants. And that's kind of how this, I mean, you go back to the Ming Dynasty and they were binding feet. I mean, you've probably seen some of the horrible photographs of women's feet who were bound from birth and wind up looking like pointy triangles with no toes at all. That's the worst and highest iteration of binding feet together. But shoes do that. Bunions. People come to me all the time, oh my gosh, Mark, I'd love to wear your shoes, but I have bunions. And I'm like, well, okay, I have a lot of people who wear my shoes whose bunions no longer bother them, like at all. They've regained function in their feet. One of those people is my daughter-in-law who at 19 had bunion surgery on one of her feet, didn't have it on the other one. And now she's the marketing director for Palluva and she's kicking herself forever having had bunion surgery because her other non-surgical foot is completely fixed. So bunions, and people will say, well, but Mark, you know, bunions are, they're genetic. They run in my family.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask.

Mark Sisson

bad fashion choices run in your family or good fashion choices depending on if you get wearing Jimmy Choo's or Manolo's. But bunions are a result of bad footwear. Everybody is born with perfect feet. I don't care what they look like. I don't care if they're flat or whatever. Everybody's born with a perfect foot and a perfect kinetic chain, birth defects notwithstanding. And this perfect kinetic chain works for you. So you may say, well, I have flat arches, I have duck feet, I have knock knees, I have wide hips. I don't care. As long as your feet can sense the ground underneath you, your brain knows exactly how to orchestrate your kinetic chain to absorb shock and impact trauma and ground forces perfectly every time you walk. But it has to have access to that information without having that input from the bottoms of the feet to tell what you're walking on, whether it's cobblestones or dirt or grass or a rocky trail or sticks, whatever, the brain has to have that information in order to inform your particular kinetic chain how much to scrunch the arch, how much to bend the toes, how to roll the ankle, how deeply to bend the knees, how much to rotate the hip. All of these things, they work perfectly. And you look at babies, babies have perfect feet, right? They're almost V-shaped, right? You look at the bottom of the heels, the bottom of the V, and then they go outward. Like, oh my God, they're so cute and they're so perfect. Well, we put them in cute little Mary Janes or cute little Nikes. And the next thing you know, kids have foot problems and have shoe problems. Well, bunions as a result of a lifetime and not even that much time. I mean, when my daughter-in-law had her first bunion surgery, she was 19. She already had bad bunions at the age of 19 from footwear, not from genetics. You know, you'll get a genetic predisposition. We talk about this in the intermittent fasting world a lot, right? You have a predisposition to storing some amount of body fat, maybe a little bit more than other people. So you have to be cognizant of that. But in general, your body works the same way everyone else's body works. And so in terms of intermittent fasting, it'll work for you. It might not shed, it may not get you down to, you know, 4% body fat like it would someone else. But it'll definitely work for you if you tweak the knobs right. Same with footwear. If you are able to encourage good foot health, good foot form, resilience, strength, realignment at an early age, your feet will serve you for a lifetime. And when we talk about feet serving you for a lifetime, one of the reasons people die, and this is a typical scenario, you know, somebody is 80 years old, they get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and they trip over the cat, and they fall and break your hip. And that's the beginning of a cascade of bad events, right? They go to the hospital, they get pneumonia, and they die. All of these things happened initially, because maybe the foot wasn't strong enough to withstand, to catch yourself from tripping.

Mark Sisson

And maybe your balance was off because you hadn't done enough footwork in terms of the realm of balance to be able to even maintain good balance. Maybe you hadn't done enough outside work, footwork, walking, and lifting weights, so your bone density was compromised because you didn't do that work. And there your bones, which would not have otherwise broken in that fall, now were so brittle because of lack of activity, that you broke the hip when you fell. It's this chain of events that starts with the feet. And my message, you know, my new mantra, my new mission is to change the way the world looks at foot health as being critical to overall health.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so glad. I was going to ask you about the slipping and falling. So I'm so glad we touched on that. I'm just so happy right now, Mark. OK, for a few reasons. One, the bunions thing, my dad had surgery for it. My grandmother had surgery. I was always told it was genetic. So I was like, am I just waiting? Like, is it going to pop up in my feet? So that's good to hear. And then two, just to touch back on the tone up Skechers thing. One of my favorite things about having like podcasting and having this show is when I have an epiphany from something that I was wondering, you know, like decades ago forever. And and then like I'm who would have thought like two decades later, I'd be talking about toneups right now. And now I understand why I was experiencing that. Another another shoe question. So the reason I was coming back from Vegas was I was hosting on the red carpet. Actually, no, last night, no night before. Wait, was it last night? Oh, biohack yourself. Yeah, yeah. Were you there at a forum? No. OK, it was fun. But I was I was hosting on the red carpet and all the things. And we were there all day. And we were talking about shoes and when to put our heels on. And I was making a comment that I I actually love heels. I either want to be barefoot or wearing high heels, but are high heels horrible?

Mark Sisson

You're horrible, but Melanie, don't stop wearing them. They look fabulous.

Melanie Avalon

That's what Brad said.

Mark Sisson

He was like, they look fabulous. But yeah, they're the worst thing for your feet. So you earn the right to wear them if you spend a lot of time with either going barefoot or wearing toe spacers or going barefoot, walking around with toe spacers, or even better, getting yourself a pair of peluvas and walking around in those. Because the difference, you talked a little bit about sandals. Do you wear the thong kind with the division between the big toe and the second toe? Yes. Okay, see, those are not great. So yeah, those are not helping you at all. You're better off going barefoot. What you want is, because what happens is you sort of have to scrunch your toes a little bit to keep them on under certain circumstances. You know, they're not, I mean, they're better than, if they're wide enough, they're better than wearing, you know, regular restrictive shoes. Let me ask you a question. Did you see Ben Greenfield there?

Melanie Avalon

I so funny thing is he's coming on the show soon. We've had so many email exchanges. Yes. I met him for the first time in person

Mark Sisson

Was he wearing, was he wearing a paloubas?

Melanie Avalon

I didn't look at his feet. I wish we had done this conversation before. I would have been, like, staring.

Mark Sisson

He's so on board, he's so on board with Palouis. And I heard he was wearing him at the premier, but.

Melanie Avalon

He probably was.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, because we have, you know, great looking leather lace up Napa leather lace ups that look just like stylish shoes, you might find at Wolf and Shepherd or something like that. Because we recognize pretty early on that once you understand not just the importance of toe freedom and and relaxing and realigning your strength at your feet, but once you get the feeling the comfort of this, you will not want to wear other shoes again, high heels accepted. But actually, a lot of women who are who are wearing Palooas now are shying away from even wearing high heels because they just they recognize that the comfort, the discomfort of the high heels is so great that they're not willing to put themselves through that. So keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

Are any of the palubas, and this actually kind of expands on the flip-flop question, so you guys sent me a pair and it is enclosed. Are they all enclosed shoes?

Mark Sisson

Yeah. Do you know which ones we sent you? I'd have to check. And what do you think? What's your first impression?

Melanie Avalon

I don't normally put my feet except for heels into enclosed spaces. So it was a completely, it feels completely different.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, it's a novel experience for I get it. It's like, no, it's the difference between a mitten, a mitten and a glove.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was like, this is a new, this is a new experience.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, these are gloves for your feet. These are gloves for your feet. So they take a little bit of getting used to for some people. Some people take to them immediately and go, oh my god, this is the best thing I've ever done. Other people say, they feel a little weird. And then, you know, two days later, like, okay, I need to buy another pair because, you know, I needed another color and another style. So I think one of our sales objectives is to have people give them a day or two trial and, you know, before you say, it just still doesn't feel right. Or whatever. Because, you know, most people are okay with gloves, right? I mean, most people would would put on gloves and say, yeah, I like gloves. Maybe even better than mittens for some certainly for some activities. Anyway, I'm just riffing here. We have a lot of styles and a lot of different uses for them, too. We've got we just introduced a trail shoe. I've got a lot of off-road UTMB racing guys who are training in the shoe and loving it because normal racing shoes of that type are too thick and they can't feel the trail. They can't feel the rocks they're stepping on. And so they tend to twist an ankle, partly because their shoes are too stiff and they haven't spent the time strengthening their ankle and partly because they can't feel what's going on underneath. So when they train with the peluevus, they feel what's going on underneath. And now when the ankle rolls, it rolls just enough, but also the knee bends just a little bit more to offset the forces. And it's a great training tool for somebody who's doing that sort of thing. We tell people, you know, don't run in pelueus. Wear your running shoes when you go run, but train. Spend your day walking around in peluevus. Go to the gym in peluevus. Work. Spend the day working in peluevus if you're having to wear shoes at work. And then when it's time to do your sport, put on your basketball shoes or put on your hockey skates or whatever it is you're putting on. And your feet will be stronger, more resilient, and they will thank you for having done that.

Melanie Avalon

No, I am so excited because I think so the order of my experience with the Paluvas and your book is you guys sent me the Paluvas because when did you launch the company?

Mark Sisson

Oh, it's been a year and a half.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I think it was around the time you launched. It was a while ago. And I hadn't read this book yet. I didn't have any of this education. And like I said, I don't even normally wear, like I pretty much just wear sandals and high heels. So I didn't understand, I did not understand until I read your book and talking to you now and all the things, I'm just like, wow. Anytime it's applicable to my life, I need to be wearing these. And there are so many people in my life who just need these, like this could change the world.

Mark Sisson

No, I think you change the world. And now these are walking shoes. And, and, you know, again, I was the it's not a coincidence that I wrote the book born to walk on the heels pun intended of the shoe company because I'm so adamant about people walking but I'm adamant about them people about people walking well, walking with good form. Now I will share with you today is day 14 of a total hip replacement for me. I had my hip replaced 14 days ago. I am I'm going to say 95% recovered. I thought it was going to take six weeks or eight weeks. I am 95% recovered two weeks into this. I did 40 minutes on the elliptical last night. I did yesterday morning. I did three miles uphill on a treadmill. I'm wearing the peluvus. Now here's the important part of this. You know, I had a traumatic surgery, right? If they cut my the side of my hip open, they yanked my hip bone out, sawed the end of it off, put a medical metal L piece on it, reamed out my hip socket, put a ceramic cup in there, stuck it back together and sewed me back up. The next day I was I walked about a half a mile a day later. I walked about a half a mile in peluvus in downtown Vail, Colorado. The next day I walked a mile in peluvus and I've been I've been increasing my output. But the important thing is with the peluvus, I am able to execute a perfect gate almost immediately because I'm waiting the heel and then rolling off the big toe. We talked earlier about this big toe abduction, this ability of the big toe to splay outwardly. A perfect gate really requires that you roll off the big toe. And I'm I guaranteed my quick recovery. And I'm going to I've already talked to my doctors about this is is in part due to the fact that my walk is not compromised by a restrictive shoe that is squishing my big toe against the other toes and causing me to over pronate and roll sideways off the shoe. As happens in so many cases, you know, when you you angle your foot outward 15 degrees and then you kind of when you walk through it, you roll off the front instead of pushing off directly off the big toe. So I'm I'm really thrilled about and by the way, when I when I wrote to my surgeon and I said, I think we're going to revolutionize THA, which is total hip arthro arthroplasty. He said, Why stop there? Why not? Why not knees and ankles and everything else? And I'm like, You're right. Exactly. So I think I think we're really I know we're really on to something here. I mean, we, you know, we already have tens of thousands, many tens of thousands of customers who are extremely satisfied, who buy multiple pairs, whose lives have changed, who are. And in your case, Melanie, if you like to walk outside, that's the best use of palovas for you. And I have, I live in a building in South Florida, I told you Dan Buettner lives in my building, but there's a lot of sort of accomplished individuals that live in my building.

Mark Sisson

My wife has probably 15 friends that are between the age of 60 and 70. Many of them walk six to eight miles a day. All of them are walking in palovas. And all of them at this point would not have another shoe to walk in because the the ground feel the the engagement of the full leg engagement, not just a glute, but every muscle up the leg as a result of this ground feel as a result of this toe splay as a result of this minimalist notion of the of the footwear. The ability to articulate toes. I mean, we walk on cobblestones here and we call it foot candy. It's like it's it feels so cool to walk in cobblestones and and have it be put a put a smile on your face. You know, when you walk outside and you've had shoes on all day and you take your shoes off and you walk in grass and you can't not smile, right? Like you step in grass and all of a sudden the world is wonderful, right? If you're barefoot, that's sort of the feeling we wanted to recreate with with palovas. We wanted to get this sense of when I'm walking, I want to experience the universe. I don't want to necessarily. I mean, I sometimes I'll listen to a podcast, but most of the time when I'm walking, I'm experiencing the wind on my face, the sounds around me, conversations going back and forth, smiling at people as they walk by. This is this is real world, real time, real life experience. You know, all we have in this life is now. Yesterday didn't really exist. It happened, but I only remember it. And tomorrow's not here yet. All we have is now. And so the more amount of time you can spend sensing the moment and appreciating the moment as a result of your tactile communication with Earth, I think the better off you'll be and the happier you'll be.

Melanie Avalon

This is so incredible. I have decided I am giving these to everybody for holidays. Yeah, this is absolutely incredible. And I just I found the one that you guys sent me and now I just lost it. It was the the women's it's one that came in all pink. Oh, the women's strand trainer. Yes. Wow. Okay. So quick question about when people so people order palubas for themselves, a few quick questions about practically implementing these and a clarification question about the intuition. So, so if people were in palubas, do they have to worry about concentrating at all on their walking form? Or is this going to make them intuitively walk correctly?

Mark Sisson

I think that's it. I think you intuitively walk better. Think about your walking form. And if you've had, if your form has been compromised by years of wearing bad shoes and your feet are deformed, take it easy. Obviously, you know, walk around the house a little bit the first day, keep them on for an hour, see what you think, notice how your feet feel. In many cases, what we tell people is if your feet slide right into your pelubas, you want these shoes. If your feet don't slide right into these pelubas, you need these shoes. So many people's feet are deformed from years of wearing narrow restrictive shoes or from the bunions or from, you know, loss of communication with their feet. I mean, sometimes it takes people 10 minutes to get their pelubas on the first time to get each toe into the appropriate socket. That's an example of complete loss of toe awareness. Like you've like the fact that you can't tell me that your toes are in each individual socket tells me you've lost communication with this most important, one of the most important organs in your body that is your main connection with the universe. So many people have tiny small toes, right? Their little toe, their pinky toe looks like a vestigial organ that's going to shrivel up and fall off. It's been so, it's been so relegated to being squished against the next toe. No, you want to, you want to articulate that you want to, you want to separate it, you want to get it out there. I mean, there's a reason that 20 million pairs of toe separators have been sold in the last couple of years, the toe spacers. I think women in general know that their feet are messed up. And so lots of women take their shoes off at the end of the day, they put on their toe spacers, they watch Netflix, you know, for two hours, and then they go to sleep. Well, that's a great start. But I'm saying what if you lived during the daytime, you walked and you ran errands and you dropped the kids off at school and you went to work or whatever you do, you did the laundry, you did your, and the whole time you're wearing either barefoot or you're wearing pelubas. So every step you take, you are reinforcing this positive realignment and strengthening and increasing the mobility and the resilience of your foot passively. Like you're not running, you're not doing specific exercises. You're just living your life, walking around a lot in pelubas or barefoot. Like I said, I'd rather people go barefoot, but it's just, if you're outside, it's just impractical. You know, so much of our environment is hardwood, floors, marble floors, tile floors, pavement, concrete, things like that. We designed the pelubas to be, to give you the sensation of walking barefoot on a putting green when you're walking on a sidewalk, right? So it's not as squishy squishy at all, but it's also not thin, thin, thin.

Mark Sisson

So you feel everything and you're calling upon your metatarsal head and your fat pads to absorb all the shock. No, just a tiny bit of, just enough protection and cushion so that you could walk. And this was my, by the way, this was my litmus test so that I could walk 10 to 12 miles a day in Europe on concrete with these shoes on and feel better as a result of having done it. Not get bone bruises, not, because the old shoes, the old five-toed shoes, the ones that I originally talked about that I wore, I couldn't walk two or three miles without getting bone bruises and then really having my feet suffer. So that was one of the first things I did when I reinvented, redesigned this concept from the ground up.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Okay, that explains a lot. So the first time I put it on, yeah, I had issues like getting my toes in and I thought I needed a bigger size. So I did get a bigger size. I don't know if it was both things happening there. Like I need a bigger size and I've lost intuition of my toes and my little toes gonna fall off.

Mark Sisson

Don't let that happen.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Oh my goodness. And what about socks? Do people wear socks with these?

Mark Sisson

Absolutely we make socks we make a different size of socks and different we have a no show sock for people who don't want to have people see their socks we make an ankle sock and crew sock. They're all five toed of course you can't wear regular socks with these. That wasn't your problem no no okay yeah yeah but but having said that i don't i don't wear socks at all and so i made we made the shoes we made the shoes for people like me who don't wear socks prefer not to wear socks so all of the shoes are. available to be worn without socks it's just that some people insist on wearing socks and and you know, sometimes we have these try on events where people we will bring. You know, a full kit of every size that people are gonna try on the shoes and then see if they like them, but if multiple people are going to try on the same shoe we we bring socks for everybody to try on that's just a sanitary thing but. You know, some people absolutely want socks when I was in veil it was zero degrees when I was rehabbing my hip day one I had socks I wore socks underneath regular shoe and walking through. The little town of veil on the cobblestones in zero degree temperature was fantastic it felt great they gave me crutches they told me you're going to need these crutches for a week at least i'm like don't tell anybody I throw them away after the first day i'm like nope. Don't need crutches sorry this is not happening just further evidence to me of how critical the big toe is and toe splay and toe articulation is to orchestrating a good walking gate and then once you have that the more you walk the more you reinforce. That upright stature that good posture that good mood that you know everything coming full circle back to the concept of walking born to walk, we are born to walk and I want people to walk as much as they can with good form with good footwear and you know extract the greatest amount of contentment enjoyment fulfillment and pleasure out of life as possible.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I am so excited right now. I think my game plan, now I'm looking at your shoes and you have so many more since when I first ordered. So you had this one at the time, but I think what I'm gonna get is the Miami casual loafer for women's for the day, like when I'm outside. And then you have a slip on. What does it mean that the heel goes down?

Mark Sisson

Yeah, you can either put the, you can, I have two of them, I'm wearing one of them right now. I just had to drop a package off down at the front desk in my building. And I didn't want to go down barefoot, I would, but it's, you know, not allowed, it's inappropriate here. So I jammed into my, my zen, these are my zen slip-ons zen, zen, they're quilted. And they have a flexible back. So you can either pull the back up and keep them cinched and on. Or you can, it's a collapsible back, you could just step on it as if they're, I don't know what the, what the other term is, like more like a sandal. Like you don't, you don't have any, any back support or anything around it, but it goes both ways. And when I was, this is the shoe I wore in Aspen, when I, in Aspen, in Vale, when I was, I'm going to Aspen next week, when I was in Vale, when it was cold. And because I, I just come out of surgery, I mean, I couldn't really bend over to tie my shoes or to, or to cinch my shoes on, but I could step into them and step on the collapsed heel and walk around town with the collapsed heel and socks on, it was, it was great.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. This is my shoe. Okay. I'm excited. I'm so excited.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, so I want you to keep me posted because you're someone I need to have, understand the concept, embrace it, love it, and promote it. Because I think you get, not just the science, but you get the sociology behind it, the anthropology behind it, and it's concurrent with an intermittent fasting-type lifestyle.

Melanie Avalon

I'm just so grateful and so excited because literally, I was thinking about this like today with your book. I'm like, nobody's talking about this. Like I know there are other companies making like minimalist shoes and things like that, but like this book that you have, this education, it's absolutely mind blowing and then people can, well, A, read the book and make lifestyle changes, but then you have a practical solution where it's not like we're gonna have to, like we just talked about, people can just start wearing palubas and it's gonna really like help change things. It's ironic because you're talking in the book about one of the problems with running being the low barrier to entry. So anybody can do it, but we shouldn't be doing it. And it's a lot of problems. This is low barrier to entry in the best way.

Mark Sisson

Absolutely. We had a team meeting today. In that meeting, I reinforced to my team that we are an education company that sells shoes.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Well, listeners are probably dying to get a pair for themselves and for their whole family like I want to do now. So you're so kind. Listeners can go to paluba.com. That's P-E-L-U-V-A.com and use the code IAPODCAST to get a discount on your order. So definitely take advantage of that. That's the code IAPODCAST at paluba.com. Oh, by the way, where does the name come from?

Mark Sisson

Oh, so, you know, I've been very adamant about the word primal. I have 20 trademarks. Primal Kitchen, Primal Blueprint, Primal Health Coach Institute, Primal Fuel, Primal Fitness, boom, boom, boom, all down the line. I went to get primal footwear and somebody had carved out the word primal and there was no other iteration. So we had to make a word up. So we looked through all of the languages and come to find out, and I have no affinity for Portuguese, but in Portuguese, PE is foot and luva is glove and you put them together and it's pe luva.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing!

Mark Sisson

And it sounds cool, doesn't it, I mean, you got to admit it's a great it's kind of a luxury sounding name and we really like it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, you did a good job because a lot of times like made up words or vague words, they're hard to remember. Like ever since I learned about it from Brad, originally, I've never like, I've never like had to scratch my mind to like remember what it's called. Well, thank you so much, Mark. I appreciate your time so much. I was sad. I heard that you were at the, uh, eudaimonia conference briefly. I was there too, but I did not see you.

Mark Sisson

No, I just I came down. I literally drove drove up from Miami Beach for the afternoon to just check it out. We were thinking about maybe exhibiting there next year. So I wanted to get just sort of the layout.

Melanie Avalon

I'm definitely gonna go next year. So hopefully I will see you there. And thank you again so much. Literally, you're like one of my favorite people. You're honestly one of the reasons I'm doing what I'm doing today. I've been following your work since forever. Like the early blog days. And I just can't express enough gratitude for everything that you do. So thank you.

Mark Sisson

It's my pleasure and thank you so much for that acknowledgement. That's really important to me to hear that people took the message and are, you know, the term paying it forward doesn't do it justice, but I appreciate the fact that you do what you do.

Melanie Avalon

Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Enjoy Aspen, and I will talk to you soon. All right. Thanks, Melanie. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Dec 23

Episode 401: Vanessa’s Last Episode, Special AMA, Have Our Thoughts On IF Changed, Does Protein Become Glucose, Keto Vs High Carb, Accurately Measuring Protein, Protein For Vegetarians, Helping Teens With Weight Loss, Red Light Therapy Protocols, Vanessa’s New Book, And More!