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May 21

Episode 318: A New Fasting Study, Protein Pacing, Protein Sparing Modified Fast, Fasted Exercise, Muscle Loss, Signs Of Ketosis, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 318 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For LIFE Plus $20 Off Your First Box!!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #194 - Dave Asprey

Enjoy A 40% Discount For The 9th Annual Biohacking Conference By Going To  melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference And Using Code MA40

Go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee for 10% off any order with coupon code MELANIEAVALON!

BEAUTYCOUNTER GIVEAWAY: Go To Apple Podcasts And Leave A Review And/Or Your Thoughts About The New Co-Host Or Update Your Previous Review And Then Send A Screenshot To questions@ifpodcast.com To Enter To Win!

Intermittent Fasting + Protein Pacing Study Scientist Dr. Paul Arciero!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

Intermittent fasting and protein pacing are superior to caloric restriction for weight and visceral fat loss

Listener Q&A: Niki - Fasted Exercise

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ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

Listener Q&A: Amy - Can you use the joovv for 10 mintues all over your body, or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 318 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished beef for life, plus $20 off. Yes, free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life, plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that’s really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you’re joining a community focused on doing what’s better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated.

I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished. That's really hard to find. They work personally with all of the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes.

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices, you want their seafood. The value is incredible, the average cost is actually less than $6 per meal, and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, “This is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life.” On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? And their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? And ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For a limited time, you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life in every box of your subscription plus $20 off, yes, new members can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is BeautyCounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive.

I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all BeautyCounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 318 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with my still new co-host, Vanessa Spina. Vanessa, how are you today?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing wonderfully. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon: I'm so good. I've been looking forward to this. For listeners, we had to cancel one of our last sessions or reschedule it, so I've been so excited to talk to you, today.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. It's been way too long. I feel like it was forever ago that we got to record our last episode and it's been giving me extra happy just knowing that we were going to be recording today. So, I'm so happy to be here.

Melanie Avalon: I know we have so much to talk about. I have a super random question to ask you to start off, I thought about this like forever ago. I think I told you in a text, I was just going to save it for the episode. It's so random. It's very random. Are you familiar with the seven deadly sins?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And like the seven virtues?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, Pete and I talk about them a lot together, and he has taught me a lot about them. He's taught me the meaning behind some of them that I didn't understand. He was like a Catholic school kid, and we both love the teachings of Jesus, and we try to follow by His example as much as possible, but we talk about what they mean and what the deeper definitions that they are sometimes just like when we're walking, going for walks and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Okay, so that was a much deeper dive. [laughs] Okay, the question I have for you, and I can answer it as well for me, the seven of them are lust. I'm looking at them right now. Lust, gluttony, pride, sloth, wrath, greed, and envy. I am wondering, which one do you struggle with the most and which one do you struggle with the least?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's such a good question, such a good question. I need to look at the list again.

Melanie Avalon: You can pull it up if you want.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I feel like I have a little bit of all of them, [laughs] and I'm trying to work on them all the time, and become better and just be conscious of when I am engaging in those things, if that makes sense?

Melanie Avalon: For me, it's very intuitive. Like, I immediately know which one I struggle with the most and I immediately know which one I struggle with the least.

Vanessa Spina: Okay, you start then.

Melanie Avalon: I struggle the most with envy, for sure. I don't like it either. And okay, what's crazy is I had been wanting to ask you this question on this show, and then last night I was listening to Joe Rogan and David Buss. Have you heard of him?

Vanessa Spina: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: His research is in evolutionary psychology. His books are all about evolutionary psychology of sexuality and sex. So, basically dating dynamics, marriage dynamics, the evolutionary purpose behind male-female relationships. But he was talking about the evolutionary purpose of envy. It's a good thing. It's because men don't know necessarily, they need to protect the female they are with because they don't ever know that they're necessarily the father, because only a female will know that the child is her own because it came from her body, but a male doesn't know, so he has to aggressively be protective of the female that he is trying to bear children with. So, that's like the purpose of envy. That was like a whole tangent. So, I struggle the most with envy and I don't like the experience of it either like I just hate feeling jealous. I just don't like it. So, I actively try to work on that. I struggle the least with sloth.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like when I was younger, envy was probably the main one until I realized that the feeling of envy means that you see something in someone else that you don't believe that you can have or experience. And when I realized that I could shift that to, if I feel joy when I see something in someone else that I would also like to have or experience, then that means I believe I can experience it as well. And that's when the joy grows and expands because you are like-- now when you see that quality in others, you're like, "Oh, that means I'm getting closer to it or I'm seeing more manifestations of it." So, it's a big shift, I think.

Yeah, but I think pride is the other one that jumped out at me. It's probably the one that I struggle with the most because I know we've talked about this before, just like in our personal conversations. But I really don't like excessive ego in others and because it's such an issue for me, I have concerns, there's probably some in me too or else it wouldn't bother me so much in other people. If I interview a certain guest and I feel like they have a really big head, it really bothers me. I really like humility. And so, I'm constantly concerned with am I being humble and meek in this situation. Am I grounding myself just being very self-aware of that? And the other ones? I think sloth also is not an issue for me. I like to hustle, but I love what Dave Asprey said in your interview with him, that biohackers are innately lazy and that humans are innately lazy and it's a survival mechanism, but that if you work smarter or you work really hard. I've always believed if you work really hard, then life gets easy. But if you take the easy route all the time, then life is hard.

Melanie Avalon: So, what's interesting about his thesis? Because you haven't read this book yet, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and for listeners so, I recently aired, well, as of this recording, an episode with Dave for his new book Smarter Not Harder. So, I'll pull a link to that in the show notes. He actually thinks we should be lazy because I realized we did. I was like thinking back on that episode, we didn't really hardcore go into his laziness principle. He thinks you should not have to work hard. Like basically if we optimize short-term acute stress, then we get this maximum stimulus and maximum gain. But you don't have to do this chronic, drawn-out, draining work. So, like a marathon compared to HIIT training or now this new REHIT training like super short burst.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I know he was specifically talking about fitness in that. I know he was talking about other areas too. But the main example he was using in your interview was fitness. He spent like two years or three years working out at the gym so hard and not really making much progress. And then he started using bio-hacks and he turned everything around, and he's like, at 8% body fat now and effortlessly so. [laughs] I like how he praised the value of work ethic and hard work. But it's a really interesting discussion to evaluate what laziness-- what role did that serve and why is it there and how can we work smarter not harder?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I love it. You need to come to the Biohacking Conference.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it sounds amazing. I wish I could come. I really do. It sounds like something I'm going to have to come to in the future for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Can you imagine, if we could hang out?

Vanessa Spina: And we would have so much fun. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I will give a link for listeners, so as listeners know. Okay, so Vanessa and I are so similar in so many ways, and we're so opposite in other ways. Actually, we're not the opposite in very many ways, but one of the ways is Vanessa has epic travel skills, which I'm envious of and I do not. So, whenever I am actually traveling that means it's like a big deal and it's something I find very worth having my presence there. So, friends, a month from now, because this comes out May 22, a month from now, on June 22, you can go to the Biohacking Conference, the 9th annual Biohacking Conference in Orlando and I am going to go, which is crazy, and I'm so excited because, Vanessa, you've been to a lot of conferences and you've done a lot of talking, so you've met people in real life a lot, right, from our sphere.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I was a regular mainstage speaker at KetoCon for the first few years before COVID everything got shut down. But I did a book tour, which I got to speak all across the US. When my book came out. But I've done a considerable amount of speaking at these different low-carb and Keto events in Canada, the US, and Europe, and they are so much fun. They're just so incredibly fun to get to meet everybody, all the other people that you know in person, and to just get to hug people all day. It's really, really fun to get to meet and connect with everyone and hang out with everybody. So, I'm excited to get to go to them again. It's been harder having a child, but we're figuring it out, so, I will get back to them eventually. The biohacking one sounds incredible.

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick, what was your favorite topic that you presented on?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, hands down was autophagy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I did a deep dive. That was my talk at KetoCon one year and The Low Carb Universe, which was in Spain, it was a deep dive on all the mechanisms of autophagy and mitophagy. A lot of people they know what it means, but in depth to really fully understand the mechanisms and what's happening is just fascinating. So, that was definitely my favorite.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. So, yes, I hope sometime you can come to the Biohacking Conference. That will actually be my first time at a conference for all of this stuff. So, I mean, what a way to start, I'm not speaking.

Vanessa Spina: You're going to get swarmed by so many people who know you. And I'll be so excited to see you. You're going to have so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: So, like, friends in the audience or listeners, you guys should come. We should come hang out because there're going to be so many people there, especially a lot of guests I've had on my biohacking show. You can look at the page if you go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference that will direct you to their page. And you can see the speaker lineup. So, people I've had on my other show, like, obviously, Dave Asprey, Joe Mercola, Catharine Arnston with ENERGYbits like the people at BiOptimizers, Max Lugavere, like so many people. Friends, come with me, and you can use the coupon code MA40, so MA40 and that will get you 40% off tickets, which is very exciting.

Vanessa Spina: That's huge. Yeah. I'm really tempted to come. It sounds like it's going to be so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I would die someday.

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to hear how it all goes, though, because I'm going to be in the US. I think, around that time. We're going to be on a more similar time zone, and it's going to be easier to communicate.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Well, if you randomly want to make a pitstop in Orlando and come hang out. Although I feel bad because I feel like most conference-- I don't know, I feel like I'm not a conference person. I'm not going to be going all day to all the things. I'm going to respect my boundaries.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you have to and then take breaks and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: I've been wanting to go to the Metabolic Health Summit for a while and they're moving it to Florida this year, so that's really interesting. And then there's the ISSN, which is the Institute of Sports Nutrition, which is like the organizing body of the sports nutrition specialization that I have. They do an annual conference in Florida. I just want to go to all of those. I would love to even just live in Florida because it would be amazing. It just sounds like there's a lot of people who have minded sorts of approaches to fitness and health in that area. So, I'm surprised it's not in Austin.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say Florida and Austin. I actually feel like I might move to Austin. Honestly, like, everybody's there, everybody. I actually am surprised it's not in Austin.

Vanessa Spina: I would live there if Pete would move there. It's such a fun town that was one of the biggest motivators for me to go there for KetoCon, and they have the most amazing barbecue brisket ever. It's such a fun town. There's just so much going on. It's such a cute town. It's a walkable city. It gets very hot in the summer as were talking about, but I think it's an awesome place.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we should manifest hanging out in Austin sometimes. So, many things to manifest. Okay, so well, speaking of shows, that was again on The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'll put links in the show notes. Come see me June 22. Use the coupon code MA40 for 40% off tickets. Oh, wait. I was just about to go into you. But one last link for listeners. Dave also talked about his new Danger Coffee. You probably haven't tried it. Have you tried it, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: No. You're the first person who told me about it but sounds like it must be interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I just started drinking it and I really like it. So, he made it with-- it has, like, minerals in it. It's supposed to be a mineralizing coffee rather than taking minerals from you.

Vanessa Spina: That's so smart.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I've been drinking Bulletproof coffee before that. Anyway, that was the brand I drank, just because I really trust him with the mold stuff, and I'm very concerned about that. But the Bulletproof brand actually isn't his brand anymore. He made Danger Coffee, and I just got it, and I am really, really liking it. I've actually been getting a lot of questions for a discount code for it. So, I got one for you guys. If you go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee, you can use the coupon code MELANIEVALON to get 10% off. Okay, that was all the links about me.

What I wanted to say was, friends, Vanessa, who I know this is our third episode together, but she is also the host of the Optimal Protein Podcast. That show is absolutely incredible. You guys should all check it out. Vanessa is very impressive and how she really dives deep into everything. And she recently did an epic interview deconstruction of a new study that came out about intermittent fasting and the role of protein. And so, two things. One, check out Vanessa's interview or episode on it. And we'll put a link to it in the show notes because she does a really, really deep dive. But we also want to talk about it a little bit in today's show. I've been excited about this. It's been a while.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. It's such an interesting study, and I was so excited to see it finally officially published because I first posted about it almost two years ago when it was presented. I think it was just presented at an obesity conference and I think it may have been in a poster presentation. To now have the full paper, the whole research article, everything. I was so excited to see it. I mean, everything that you and I both talk about on our own podcast, you've talked about for years on the Intermittent Fasting podcast. It reinforces so many of the concepts we've talked about for years. It's just so exciting whenever you see a paper that is really investigating something that is important and doing it in a novel way and doing it in a way that gives us new conclusions, new information. I was so excited when I saw that it was officially published.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get 20% off one of my favorite things for truly taking charge of your health. To live your healthiest and longest life possible, you need to understand what's going on inside. InsideTracker takes a personalized approach to health and longevity from the most trusted and relevant source that would be your body. By using data from your blood, DNA, and fitness trackers, InsideTracker gives you personalized and science-backed recommendations on things that you can take control of to optimize your health. This is things like food supplements, workouts, and lifestyle choices including ways to optimize sleep and stress. What I love about InsideTracker is that InsideTracker tests provide optimal ranges, not conventional ranges, for over 40 biomarkers, including magnesium, vitamin D, testosterone, cortisol, ferritin, which is the storage form of iron that is rare for doctors to test, and the newly released ApoB, which I am so excited about.

The thing I love most about InsideTracker is that they have a strict science-backed approach to everything they do. If your specific biomarker level is unoptimized, InsideTracker actually provides recommendations that are backed by dozens of peer-reviewed studies and personalized to you. This process was set in place by their founders that include experts in aging, genetics, and biometric data from Harvard, Tufts, and MIT. For a limited time, our audience can get 20% off the entire InsideTracker store when you sign up at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. If you're ready to get a crystal-clear picture of what's going on inside your body along with science-backed recommendations to optimize what's not working, then visit insidetracker.com/Ifpodcast. One of the things I really love about InsideTracker is it helps you track all of your results, all of your tests over time so you can see patterns, see your history. It makes predictions of where you'll be if you continue on your current trajectory. It is a game changer for making sense of your labs. I am obsessed with InsideTracker. Again, you can get 20% off sitewide at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast and we will put all of this information in the show notes.

The title of the study is Intermittent fasting and protein pacing are superior to caloric restriction for weight and visceral fat loss, published in Obesity. Like Vanessa said, it was a while ago, but just more recently-- So, when did they actually publish it?

Vanessa Spina: The date on here says that it was received in June and then it was revised and accepted in November of this year-- But then the first article that I found or last year. Yeah, was that it was officially published in the latest version was like January of 2023. So, yeah, it's pretty recent.

Melanie Avalon: I have a surprise for you about it. Trying to say which order to go with this. Do you want to tell listeners a little bit about the setup of the study and what they were testing?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'd love to. I think what was-- when I posted about this, definitely the main questions that people had were specifically about the protocol of the diet. So, I was really interested in seeing exactly how they did it, exactly what the methodology was, because obviously, they had positive results or favorable results so I wouldn't be excited about the study. But I even dived as deep as going through the menus that they were eating on the different days in the two groups. So, they basically separated participants into two different groups and they were equated for calories. But one group did this intermittent fasting. They call it the IFP diet, which was doing intermittent fasting and consuming protein at regular intervals throughout the day. The intermittent fasting that they did was they then subdivided that group into two groups that they then put back together after four weeks.

But in that group, they either fasted once a week for 36 hours or twice a week for 60 hours. And they had exactly the-- calories were equated, which, actually the calories in the just calorically restricted group, which was the other group, were actually even lower than on the intermittent fasting protein pacing group. And they still got better results in terms of fat loss and mostly body composition. That's what really gets me excited about studies like this is they are improving body composition.

There's another study that I was just sharing about on the podcast in the most recent episode because they did a similar approach, but they didn't change their calories in either groups and all they did was increase the protein percentage. And they saw really positive changes in body composition, which means you get more lean mass and you lose body fat, and lower your body fat percentage without even changing the amount of calories that you're eating. Just switching up the macros.

So, I'm really passionate about this study in particular because it's combining intermittent fasting with also switching up macros a little bit to focus on a higher protein percentage. That to me, really excites me for the potential for improving body composition because we all know that you can get results doing intermittent fasting and not changing anything about your macros. But if your goal really is to improve body composition, if that happens to be your goal and why you're doing intermittent fasting, you're going to see, I think, much better results if you bump up the protein percentage a little bit. I know that's something that you're also really passionate about, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: And you talked about this in your episode when you talked about the study as well. But something that really resonated with me about it or something that I thought was really, really important was I feel like there are a lot of studies. So, we have a lot of studies looking at intermittent fasting versus calorie restriction showing extra benefits with intermittent fasting. We also have studies. There was that one sort of recently where I don't know, I think there was like a few, but there's been somewhere it gets really sensationalized in the media and they say that intermittent fasting is no different than calorie restriction. And I just think it goes to show the major importance of, like you said when we focus on protein and on the diet quality and combine it with fasting, just the massive potential additional benefits in comparison to calorie restriction.

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because so often it's not using something like that. So, I think it's really, really important. Although it's funny because I was reading the study and I kept reading it and I was like, I can't figure out what they're doing on the fasting day. And I was like, am I just not smart?

Vanessa Spina: I have to get the author of the study on my podcast somehow because I read this several times and I still cannot figure it out. When they talk about the protocol, they say that they fasted either for 36 hours once a week or 60 hours twice a week for two days a week. And then after four weeks, all they were doing was just once a week for 36 hours. So, it sounds like 36 hours fast. But then when you look at the menus, [laughs] it's a bit confusing. But it does seem like on the fasting days, they were still consuming things. But then when you look further into it, it's mostly like electrolytes and-- some ashwagandha like adaptogens, electrolytes sort of non-caloric beverages. That's what it mostly seems like. And then there is, I think, a snack that's consumed. So, in a way it almost makes like a fasting-mimicking approach, but it's really hard to almost impossible to figure it out from just reading the paper.

And then I don't know if that's what they did on the two 60 days. It's one of the issues I think sometimes you see in research is like, they'll say it's intermittent fasting, but it's like their version of intermittent fasting. I wish there was a little bit more clarity, like did they turn the clock on that day and then not eat anything for 36 hours? Which would make sense to me based on the results that they saw here or 60 hours. But then it's almost not even intermittent fasting at that point. It's more like fasting.

Melanie Avalon: So, like I said, I read it and I was like, I can't figure this out, and I was like, "Am I just not?-- Like, what am I missing?" [laughs] And then I listened to your breakdown, I was like, "Okay, it's not just me." Well, are you ready for my surprise? I emailed the author of the study.

Vanessa Spina: Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. Did they write back?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: Oh my gosh. Paul Arciero.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, shall I read you his email?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, please. Oh my gosh, this is the best surprise ever.

Melanie Avalon: It's like Christmas. Okay, so this is from Paul. [laughs] He says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa." Because I talked about you in the email. Thanks for your interest in my research study on intermittent fasting and protein pacing and discussing it on your podcast. So, cool. To answer your question, sorry, I'm laughing. To answer your question, participants consume 400 to 500 calories during the 36 to 60 hours fast. They followed a similar timing schedule of consumption as they did on the protein pacing days. "Okay, ready for the good part?" Please know if you both agree. I'd love to be invited on your podcast and share the results in detail, including the effects of the intermittent fasting protein pacing on the gut microbiome. Thanks, and congrats on all your success with this awesome podcast, Paul.

Vanessa Spina: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: We should have Paul on.

Vanessa Spina: That is so incredibly exciting and wonderful. I was just going to say, when you said you emailed him, like, we have to get him to come on and talk about this because that would be so thrilling.

Melanie Avalon: So, isn't that exciting?

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. Good job.

Melanie Avalon: I remember, I've really found, especially having this show, the biohacking show, I feel like there's a whole potential ocean of people, like researchers who are not-- they're doing studies, but they don't have books, they're not like in the popular media. I feel like a lot of researchers are so accessible, if you actually just email them, they want to talk to you.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I mean, if someone emailed you and was like, I want to talk to you about your work, like your life's work, it's like, great. [laughs] Let's talk about it in front of thousands of people. Like yes, of course. I would love to. So, yeah, I agree. I love that you reached out to him because I wanted to but that's amazing. We have to schedule him ASAP to talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, Vanessa and I have been talking about all the random people we want to have on the show. We're going to have Rick Johnson back on. It's going to be so fun. So, yeah, okay, so I'll email him and we should have him on.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon: And that's interesting though and I guess we can talk about it maybe more when we have him on.

Vanessa Spina: What are your thoughts on that protocol that they did?

Melanie Avalon: To clarify for listeners, if it wasn't clear from his answer, they fasted on the fasting days, 36 to 60 hours and they were actually during that time having 400 to 500 calories. It's actually like a fasting-mimicking diet approach with the exception that the fasting-mimicking diet is very low protein and this was very high protein.

Vanessa Spina: Which also has a great purpose to cycle once in a while low protein and switch off mTOR and ramp up autophagy and everything. But how interesting to see a study doing the opposite of that.

Melanie Avalon: It's also like I'm thinking of protein-sparing modified fast where people have extremely low versions. What I would love to see? Now I'm like "I should be making a list of questions for when he comes on." I'm really curious why they did it that way. I would love to see if they had done it the way you were hypothesizing that they had done it, which I was also hypothesizing. I was thinking maybe they had the 400 calories as a meal and then fasted straight. Like I would love to see a third arm where they did that.

Vanessa Spina: They mentioned in the study about the metabolic switching and how you're ramping up fat-burning oxidation. You're getting ketogenesis, you're getting more ketones, you're becoming more insulin sensitive and you're cranking up autophagy, lowering inflammation, oxidative stress, and enhancing lean body mass. But that really gets ramped up when you are just fully not consuming all of those things. It was really interesting to see that. And in my podcast recap, I said this looks like a protein-sparing modified fast to me, it's like doing one day a week or two days a week of protein-sparing modified fast which is very effective for doing these kinds of things.

But they're not just doing that on the other days of the week. They are doing protein pacing which is like consuming I think at least four to six times a day consuming protein. They're maximizing all those opportunities for muscle-protein synthesis. And I think that's a huge reason why they had such great results in terms of lowering fat mass and increasing the lean mass and that it just was way more effective than in the calorically restricted group.

Melanie Avalon: In the fasting protein people, the non-CR people on their eating days, on the days when they weren't "fasting," which maybe we can circle back to that. Were those days calorie-restricted with protein or not?

Vanessa Spina: Both groups I know they were trying to equate calories between the two, but it's really interesting. I have the exact menus from the study that I was looking at because I was trying to figure out exactly what they were doing. But the men were eating 1800 calories a day in the intermittent fasting protein group and the women were eating 1450. They were all at a caloric deficit. But the calorically restricted group was doing 1500 calories for the men and 1200 calories for the women. Like much more caloric restriction, you would expect that they would have lost more weight, but they lost or if anything, that they would have been at least equal. But in the intermittent fasting protein group, they were eating a breakfast, a lunch, a mid-afternoon snack, a dinner, and an evening snack, and all of them were high-protein meals. And so, it's amazing to me that the calorically restricted group was like 300 calories lower for the men and 250 calories lower for the women. And yet the intermittent fasting protein group got better results.

That's initially what launched intermittent fasting was some of the studies that came out with, like, Mark Mattson and Krista Verity, who were showing that the intermittent fasting groups were getting better results eating more than the caloric-restricted group. So, all the fanfare around these studies showing that intermittent fasting and caloric restriction can be as effective for weight loss. They don't really say much, I think because we know that you can get even better results. I'm so excited to actually talk to the primary researcher and that's going to be an amazing episode.

Melanie Avalon: If you added up the entire week and accounted for these "fasting days," that's where they were trying to make the calories sort almost equal, right. Like, if you added up every day, but wasn't the CR group was still slightly less, I think?

Vanessa Spina: I think it was still slightly less, but I know that the goal was to have them be the same.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, it was comparing calorie restriction to calorie restriction, but a high-protein version. And then they were also comparing this fasting, but it was really more like a fasting-mimicking diet or like a protein-sparing modified fast.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. In the calorically restricted group, they were doing like, the heart-healthy approach to diet. And I think the protein was between 5% up to 15% and the protein pacing group was closer to 25%.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Okay. Yes. I can't wait to have him on. So, how do you feel about-- Do you call that fasting if they're eating the 400?

Vanessa Spina: Not really.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: I was actually a bit let down when I saw that there were menus, because I was like, why is there a menu for a fasting day? Intermittent fasting was really defined for me by Mark Mattson. He talks about it all the time is like it's a pattern of eating, it's not a diet. It's a way that you structure your eating window and your non-eating window throughout the day. And that non-eating window is non-eating. So, I was surprised. But we don't know some people may have consumed it all in one go, like when they were given their menu, they may have had it all and then fasted the rest of the time. I would have preferred it.

I think it would have been like you were saying, to have a third arm where that fasting time was actually just complete digestive rest, complete fasted state because every time you consume food, you go back into the fed state for 4 to 5 hours, depending on the size of the meal of course, but if you're constantly eating during that fasted window, then it's not really fasted. And then we know there're exceptions, right, with certain beverages that are not sweetened or that kind of thing. But yeah, I was a bit disappointed.

Melanie Avalon: I was too. I was like, womp, womp.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: I guess I wish as well-- It's a great study. I wish the title because the title Is calling it intermittent fasting and I think that's where we run into just in general, all of this confusion with understanding what's happening and what we can draw from it. It's one phrase, intermittent fasting, that we use to describe so many different things. So, this example here of what they're describing it for is not even remotely similar to somebody doing one-meal-a-day approach where they're not eating all day and then eating like 2000 calories, completely different thing or like a 16:8 window.

So, yes, but regardless and regardless, there's definitely a lot to learn from it though. I think, like you said, just to bring it home, I think it really shows the importance of diet quality and the role of protein, especially the takeaway-- I would take away from it wouldn't even be so much about intermittent fasting, it would be when you're using calorie restriction to lose weight, go high protein. That's my takeaway.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. If you want to improve your body composition and be losing fat mass and gaining lean mass, you really want to optimize your macros.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. So, okay, we'll put links to that in the show notes. Hopefully, we'll be back soon with Paul. I'm excited to hear his microbiome stuff. Do you know what he's talking about? Have you read that other--

Vanessa Spina: I don't. And when you said that, I got even more excited to have him on to talk about it because I'm sure our listeners also would love to hear more about that too.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm going to email him ASAP. All right, shall we get into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have a question from Nikki and this was specifically submitted for Vanessa. Oh, so, announcement, before that. We're still running our incentive. If you would like to help welcome Vanessa to the podcast, you can go to Apple Podcasts and if you already wrote a review, you can update it for this show. Or if you have never written a review, you can write a review. So, it's super easy to do. And just write a review and include somewhere in the review what you're excited to experience with Vanessa as the new co-host or what you're already loving about it with her. Send us a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will enter you into a giveaway to win over $500 worth of products from BeautyCounter. I am not making that up. And you guys know that I love BeautyCounter's safe skincare and makeup free of toxins and endocrine disruptors, which can actually have a very obesogenic effect on the body. That's a whole tangent.

Actually. I recently had on Ben Azadi on my show, and we talked all about-- though think the number one cause of resistant weight loss isn't diet, isn't exercise. He thinks it's actually the build-up of these toxins in our bodies because they can cause weight loss resistance. They can literally act as obesogens where they cause cells to be in a more fat-storage mode and recruit inflammatory cytokines. And when people actually lose weight, it can have this negative detox effect where people release these endocrine disruptors. All that to say, I'm on a tangent, but our skincare makeup is actually one of our largest sources of those compounds every day. So, that's why I love BeautyCounter because they were founded on a mission to make products which are free of endocrine disruptors. Like, that is their mission. So, you can win over $500 worth of products if you go to Apple Podcasts, update your review or write a new review, say something about Vanessa, send us a screenshot, and we will enter you. Okay, all of that to say we have a question from Nikki and the subject is fasted exercise.

And Nikki says "Hi. Melanie and Vanessa. Welcome to the podcast Vanessa. Melanie asked us to send in questions for you." I did. She says, "So I'm so excited to get your thoughts on fasted exercise. You've talked about its benefits quite a bit in the Optimal Protein Podcast, but I'd like to break down the different types of exercise more because your answer may change my fasting days. My current protocol is 2 to 3 24-hour fasts per week with high-protein distinct meals on the other days, no snacking or grazing based off of the fasting method protocol. For my workouts, I strength train Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with a personal trainer and lift pretty heavy two of those days. If there's time, I might do a very short, less than 10 minutes HIIT session afterwards." Side note "Do you call it HIIT or do you call it HIIT?"

Vanessa Spina: A HIIT.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I never like, no. It's been like a decade of talking about it, and I never know what to say. "On Tuesdays and Thursdays, I do a combination of walking, easy runs, and hot yoga. My goal is body recomposition. While I'm really happy with my muscle growth, I want to lose some remaining body fat based solely off of the types of workouts I'm doing and assuming I want my longer fasting days to be on weekdays only for family reasons, which days make for the best fasting days?" PS, "I forgot to mention I normally break a 24-hour fast at dinner with a high-protein meal. Also, I normally strength train in the afternoons. So, I'd definitely be deep in the fasted state if I did that on my longer fasting days. Best, Nikki." This actually flows in really well with the study were talking about the importance of protein. So, what are your thoughts on this Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: This is such a great question, Nikki, thank you so much for listening to both of our podcasts. It's so nice to hear from you. I am really happy that you have been learning about the importance of fasted workouts and the main sort of benefit of fasted workouts that I talk about a lot on the podcast is the mitochondrial biogenesis because there is research showing that if you are doing fasted workouts, you will get more mitochondrial biogenesis or the genesis of new mitochondria which will help you to have better functioning mitochondria, a greater number of them and it really helps optimize overall wellness. I would say it depends on which of the two goals you're optimizing for, and I think the one that you're optimizing more for right now because we're always switching up our goals is to lose some body fat, and little bit of conditioning there, lose some fat mass.

And so, if that is the main goal, then I would say what stands out to me is that-- you could definitely switch it up either way because you mentioned at the very end that you do break your 24-hour fast with a high-protein meal. But if you want to optimize for building the muscle and losing the fat, I think the way to do it would be to do your workout days on your eating days because you'll maximize the muscle-protein synthesis if you're having more than just fasting in one protein meal. It depends on how experienced you are when it comes to resistance training, because if you're more so in your first like five years of training, your window for building muscle is like 24 to 48 hours, that anabolic window after you work out. So, you can have protein anywhere in that 24 to 48 hours as long as it's enough to raise the leucine level in your blood, enough to trigger muscle-protein synthesis, which is usually like 2 to 3 grams.

I would say that you probably could do either because you are doing a high-protein meal. Personally, if it were me, I would strength train on, like you said, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and make those eating days and then do those fasts on the other days when you are doing more so walking, easy runs, and some yoga. And I think that's what I would do because you're going to optimize body composition better, you're going to build more lean mass and that's going to also help lower body fat percentage.

I think that some people get more power and output when they do fasted workouts. So, that may be something to look at for yourself. Like, how do you feel when you're working out fasted versus not? But you can still get the benefits of mitochondrial biogenesis if you do your workout, say in the morning or a time when you haven't had a ton of food, you could still get that. Also, if you're doing a higher protein approach that's lower carb or you're eating more so like a protein and fat meal for breakfast, there's research showing that you can get about two-thirds as much mitochondrial biogenesis than if you were just doing that workout fasted. That would be my take on it. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: I felt the same way. Might as well, especially-- Well, this is going to be backtracking because we get so many questions about people worried about muscle loss with exercise, especially with muscle-building exercise, and strength training, and fasting. We've done a lot of discussions for years on this show about how you can maintain muscle with intermittent fasting. It can actually be supportive if you do it correctly. I don't want to undo all of that by saying, yes, have it on the muscle days to support muscle growth. I do think that you'll probably get the maximum bang for your buck with all of that because like Vanessa said, you're really creating all the signals for muscle growth on those days that you're doing the strength training and really supporting that with the protein.

We know that something like walking and easy runs, yoga, those are perfect, steady, low, consistent cardio-type states to be fueled by fat burning. So, those I think pair really, really well with fasting and are a great way to gently lose that fat that she's trying to target without sending overly stressed signals to the body.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I concur.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome.

Vanessa Spina: You'll have to let us know what you end up doing and report back Nikki?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I also like what you said about how we're all individuals and people really do have to find what works for them. I'm curious what type of exercise-- are you like an exerciser person, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I'm really passionate about resistance training, and if I can't do any other exercise in the week, I at least get that done. So, I prioritize it above other forms of exercise, like HIIT for example. I try to get three to four sessions a week and it's usually about a 40-minute workout. I do it at home and I have free weights at home and I really enjoy it. I think it's so important for improving body composition and putting all that protein to work, building more muscle. I'm really interested in trying out some of the newer technologies for building muscle. I know we've talked a little bit about what you do with the EmSculpt, but I also heard Dave talking about some other technologies on your podcast, so I want to try all of these out.

Melanie Avalon: Did I tell you they're sending me the CAROL Bike?

Vanessa Spina: I heard you say it on the interview. So, that sounds really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It's supposed to come Thursday, so it's supposed to come two days from now. So, apparently, friends, we'll see when it gets here. Apparently, it's an exercise bike, so backtracking again. I mentioned HIIT, which is high-intensity interval training which for people who are not familiar, it's something that Dave talks all about in his book. But it's basically going all out max effort for a very short amount of time. So, you're basically pushing your body to the edge like the hardest that you can go. And it's sending all of these signals and then you stop and you rest, and then you do it again. You rinse and repeat. And there are different protocols for it. The benefit of it is that it's a very short workout overall. Probably most HIIT sessions what range from 10 to 20 minutes depending on the format that you're doing it in. But you actually get the benefit of both fat-burning and carb-burning compared to just one or the other.

And then the afterburn effect is very extended. So, studies have shown that you continue to burn fat for quite a while after that workout. So, apparently, the new version is REHIT which I'm still a little bit unclear on. I have to reread his book. Now, there's this advancement with technology where they can use AI to evaluate your heart rate and everything like that and adjust the machine, you're using to give you the maximum bang for your buck. So, apparently, this CAROL Bike that I am receiving, you wear a heart rate monitor. I don't know if it has other biometric data that it takes from you, but I think the bike actually adjusts to be harder or easier to do. So, you get the ultimate workout in the shortest amount of time possible.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I can't wait to hear how it goes when you try it.

Melanie Avalon: I know, me too. I just don't know where I'm going to put it. I'm like looking around my apartment. Yeah. So, I'll keep listeners attuned of that. You know what? I don't have the discount code for them yet, but I probably will. It will probably be MELANIEAVALON. So, I'll make a link for it at melanievalon.com/carolbike. And I'm just guessing the coupon code is MELANIEAVALON but I will let you guys know if that changes. [laughs] So, yes, but it's really exciting though to see the future, like you said, of technology with all of this. Yeah, I also have a mirror. Are you familiar with those?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've seen them. I've seen them. It's like a standing mirror where you can do workouts and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like with other people and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's so futuristic. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: I need to get in the habit of using it. Like it's there. I forget that it's there.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure you have stockpiles of biohacking equipment and things. I'm looking over at my desk and I have so many things that are waiting to be tested out that I'm just like-- and people are like, "Are you going to test it out soon?" I'm like, "Maybe if I can." [laughs]. Yeah. There's just so many things, so many amazing products, technologies. I just love things that make us more efficient, can leverage our time more. So, I think it all sounds really awesome if you can get more done in less time. I'm really, really interested about specifically building muscle with some kind of stimulation because I've heard now from a few people about, specifically the EMS, the electromagnetic stimulation of the muscle. For years before I heard that it was completely worthless. Now I'm hearing a lot of people are getting a ton of results from it. So, I really want to try it out.

Melanie Avalon: So, interestingly. Have you interviewed Terry Wahls?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I know her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you know her personally?

Vanessa Spina: Like, I know of her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, know of her, I'm sorry. I had her on a while ago for The Wahls Protocol. She's actually going on a lot more shows now because she is publishing a new study. So, if you'd like to have her on her show, I know she's like wanting to go on. She randomly came back to me and was like, can I come back on for this study? Interestingly, she talks in her book and we talked on the show about using that E Stim for muscle recovery in people with MS. It's profound, the effects it has on their metabolic health, actually because they're not able to really maintain and create muscle easily. And so, this is a way that they can. We talked about how they are testing using it for astronauts in space because normally astronauts lose muscle due to lack of gravity. So, it's pretty cool.

Vanessa Spina: This episode is brought to you in part by AG1. Some of our listeners have really had wonderful experiences with AG1 and we wanted to highlight some of them on the show. Anna says I like the fact that I can stop ordering a bunch of supplements and have an all-in-one drink plus it has pro and prebiotics plus adaptogens, plus my husband is drinking it too, which makes me happy. I love getting to highlight some of our listener's own experiences using Athletic Greens. If you would like to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs. With your first purchase, go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out.

Melanie Avalon: We have one more question before we go and this question comes from Amy. This was actually from our Facebook group. She says, "Can you use the Joovv, which is red light therapy for 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?" I will say we've mentioned this before in prior podcasts, but we obviously adore Joovv on this show. And Vanessa also has her own red light therapy line, which is so cool. Tone Lux, she's an expert in the red light therapy world. So, Vanessa, red light therapy, 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes one part? And is it only 10 minutes? That's my additional question.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It's such a great question, Amy, thank you for submitting it. When it comes to using red light therapy panels, you really need to know the power output of the panel. There's something known as irradiance, which is the power density measured in milliwatts per square centimeter, and it's going to tell you how many joules are actually delivered to your tissues, and the joules make up to the dose for what your specific objective is. As many of you know which I think the reason you're asking this is because you're familiar with the fact that there is a bell-shaped curve when it comes to red light therapy. If you don't do enough, you won't see results. If you do too much, there's something known as the biphasic dose response where you don't get results either. You really want to be in that sweet spot. And that sweet spot is determined by the power of the panels and the time and the distance you are away from the panels.

With my panels, for example, I have very specific dosing guidelines in the manuals for different things. Like, if it's something more topical, then typically red-light wavelengths are better for that, as opposed to infrared, which go more deeply into the skin. As sort of a general practice that I've received from real experts like Ari Whitten, who wrote a book on red light therapy, he tends to say 10 to 20 minutes around six inches away is like a good guideline, but I always like to preface it with, you want to build up to that. If you're brand new to it, you could start with one to three minutes. You can do skin sensitivity tests before that, but then do 1 to 3 minutes and sort of build-up. I've been doing it for a couple of years and I don't do more than 20 minutes, so I alternate the different things that I'm doing.

Just like with resistance training or workouts, I have my leg day and I have my face and abdomen day. I have the day that I focus on the muscles that I'm conditioning my body for, so I don't do more than 20 minutes in total. You'd be amazed at how effective though the panels can be in small increments. So, for example, for your face, if you want to use it for boosting collagen and elastin factors, it's stimulating the epigenetic signaling that is going to boost those factors in your face. If you're using it on your face, you can use it for as little as four minutes on your face if you don't have any makeup or anything on your skin. And because you're using red light, which just goes on the surface and you're pretty close to it like six inches away, you only need like four minutes.

So, you can actually do a lot of different parts of your body depending on what you're wanting to treat it for within that 20 minutes. But I wouldn't go above that. Some people do it for different amounts for longer. Again, it really goes back to the irradiance or the power density of the panel that you're using because you can also not see results because you're using a panel that's not powerful enough. You want to make sure to be using panels that are very powerful as well.

Melanie Avalon: I learned so much. That was very helpful. So, a question for you. I have my device. Well, I have a few devices. I have a Joovv panel on my desk and I'm just so bad at gauging distance. It's about like I literally need a ruler. Like I can't gauge distance. It's probably 2ft away and I have it on like when I'm working at my computer, I just have it on because the light makes me happy. So, do you think that's an issue? Like it's on me.

Vanessa Spina: Personally, if I'm using it for ambient light, I don't shine it at me, I shine it at a wall, and that then reflects around the room. I like to use it at night for that. In the morning I actually turn it on when I get in the shower and then I'll shine it in my direction. I'm like 5 or 6ft away from it at least. If you are shining it directly on your body, I also turn down the intensity. I usually put it on like 25% or 50% of the total power in ambient mode. I wouldn't recommend having it shining in your direction for more than 20 minutes even if you're far away, because you could potentially activate the biphasic dose response and not get the results you could potentially see because of too much. But it's really hard to say, like I said, it depends on the power. But I know it's a nice feeling and it's a nice balance out from all the blue light to have it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's why I do it. It feels like you just said, like balances. How eloquent can I be in what I just said? [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yes. The sign of a powerful panel is that when you're using it about six inches away, it should feel like a day at the beach, you know what I mean, like that feeling.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a good little practical that's going to stick with me. That's great.

Vanessa Spina: Like a day at the beach.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, now I'm just thinking how I've literally, how many years have I been sitting here with this panel on me? Half a decade.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure it was only doing good things. There's cell free mitochondria. Your mitochondria are probably doing amazing, but we just still don't know what exactly can trigger that biphasic dose response. That's why people just always say to play it safe because humans have a tendency to do if something is good, more is always better, but it isn't with red light.

Melanie Avalon: Well, how can listeners get your device?

Vanessa Spina: Wow, thank you for that. If you go to ketogenicgirl.com, I have the three Tone Lux panels there. I have the half-body panel, which is the Sapphire, and I have the Diamond, which is the face panel, but you can use it anywhere else on your body. And the Gem, which is the portable one, that is great because you can take it with you when you travel, but you can also put it quite close to your skin because it doesn't have the nonnative EMFs because it's not plugged in.

Melanie Avalon: I love those travel units. They're game changers for when you're traveling. I'm also thinking about now, how about the Joovv that I have is always on my left side. It's been five years of it, like, one side in my body. Okay, it's fine. Wait, I do have one last question, and then we'll go. I promise listeners. So, you know what's really interesting being in this biohacking sphere and all the men I talk to. This actually comes up a lot with men I talk to in this world.

Vanessa Spina: It's the number one question they have. Right.

Melanie Avalon: I can't tell you how many-- and this might sound crazy that this has come up like platonically, but it does. How many of them talked to me about using it on their manhood?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know. It's the number one question. I did an interview last week with someone and we're talking about red light, and he's like, "So I've heard that it boosts testosterone if you shine it on your undercarriage." I'm like, "Yep, they all want to know." I think it's mostly because of Ben Greenfield, because I think he was, like, doing that a lot, and talking a lot about it a few years ago on his podcast. It's kind of, like, filtered through the ether to lots of men. But it scares me because you have to be careful because it's such a sensitive area there. The worst thing for men, like, the whole reason that men's gonads are on the outside of their body.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm about to learn something. I'm about to learn something. Okay, wait.

Vanessa Spina: The whole reason that theirs are outside instead of ours are inside, our ovaries are inside is so that they can stay cooler. Because it's so important for that area to not get overheated because it could damage sperm. That's why baths are really bad for men's fertility. Imagine you're shining like a laser there. You have to be really careful and make sure that it's like one to three minutes and you're keeping it at least like a foot away. I think people could do-- there're no negative side effects really to red light that have been reported, but I don't think it would be good to heat that because especially with infrared, you could really heat the area. But there're so many studies about it improving men's fertility as well as women's fertility. There're some really amazing studies on that. So, it definitely can boost testosterone levels. It can boost fertility it can boost motility of sperm and function. But. Yeah, you have to be really careful.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. So, when it comes up, like I said, in conversations with male friends in the sphere, I mean, most of those conversations have been about them actively doing it. So, again, it's funny that that would come up. But like, in the biohacking world, you talk about this stuff all the time. It's like not, I'm not flirting with them.

Vanessa Spina: No and I knew exactly what you were going to say before you said it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh man, it's so funny. Do you know, is sauna bad for male fertility, then?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it depends on the kind and how long you spend in it. But, I mean, there's a reason why men are less tolerant to heat. There're lots of different reasons, but I think that's part of it. But I know baths are not recommended if you're trying to conceive or anything like that.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, fun times on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. So, speaking of listeners, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, please do so. Just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about and we talked about a lot of stuff. So, those show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode318.

And again, just a brief reminder. Come hang out with me at the Bulletproof Conference in Orlando, June 22. Use the code MA40 to get 40% off. Also enter to win $500 worth of BeautyCounter by updating or writing a new Apple Podcast review and talking about Vanessa in the review and sending that to questions@ifpodcast.com. And then you can follow us and-- you can also check out Vanessa's other show, the Optimal Protein Podcast, and mine, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I just loved all the questions and all the different topics that we got to cover in this episode and I already can't wait to record the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm so excited to record with Paul.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that's going to be mind-blowing I'm sure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.  Awesome. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: All right. Sounds great melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 07

Episode 316: Introducing Vanessa!, Amazing Keto Recipes, Food Photography, Growing Up Internationally, Biomedical Science, Entrepreneurship, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 316 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free ground beef For LIFE plus $20 off your first box!!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off All Tests Sitewide!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For LIFE Plus $20 Off Your First Box!!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

13:00 - vanessa's background

The Optimal Protein Podcast

14:00 - podcast nomination

20:30 - young motherhood

22:10 - INSIDETRACKER: Go To Insidetracker.Com/ifpodcast For 20% Off All Tests Sitewide!

27:00 - vanessa's expertise

30:00 - education and growing up internationally

35:20 - biochemistry

Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight

41:00 - food Photography

44:00 - the online program

44:25 - 5:2 &Warrior diet

52:15 - peter attia

54:10 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

57:00 - Entrepreneurship

58:30 - measuring ketones

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 316 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed grass-finished beef for life plus $20 off. Yes, free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that's really hard to find, by the way and wild caught, sustainable, and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated.

I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished that's really hard to find. They work personally with all of the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry.

Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, this is honestly one of the best steaks I have ever had in my entire life. On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks?

Their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For a limited time, you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life in every box of your subscription, plus $20 off. Yes, new members can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it.

So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 316 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with Vanessa Spina. I don't even know where to start. I'm just so excited. But Vanessa, welcome to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Vanessa Spina: Wow. I don't even know where to start either. All I know is that I'm buzzing with excitement. Like my chair could be buzzing. I have so much enthusiasm and excitement about starting this new journey with you. I can't wait. I'm so happy to be here.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for listeners. Vanessa and I have been looking forward to this for quite a few weeks now. We've just been, like giggly like little girls, so excited, been looking forward to this like first day of school. Yeah. I'm just really, really happy right now. This is a moment. I'm taking it in.

Vanessa Spina: I hope everyone can feel our joy because it's just literally pure joy. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know it's pure joy and lots of emojis. [laughs] Vanessa and I use a lot of emojis. [laughs] Okay. Sorry. Okay. Staying present, but in any case. For listeners, the backstory leading up to today's episode, well, first of all, I just want to get, like, teary-eyed. I want to thank the listeners for being here so long in this journey with this show because it's so, so, real to me because so much of my life now is podcasting. I have the other show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. It all started with this show though. Now it's been over six years, I guess. For listeners who have been here on the journey the whole way, I was co-hosting with Gin Stephens for about five years, which is fantastic. She's just such a character and really brought a nice approachable perspective to intermittent fasting and provided the perspective of, like, a mom with older children. We had great banter and that really created a whole vibe on the show. And then her life was shifting around. She was changing where she was focusing her energy and her priorities.

Next came Cynthia Thurlow who was the host right before this. And Cynthia, so amazing, so fantastic. She brought so much to the show in that she is a nurse practitioner. She has a medical background. I think what I really liked about having Cynthia was I had this backlog of questions about menopause and women's hormones and all this stuff. When Gin and I were cohosting, were like we don't know if we can answer these. So, we got those all covered with Cynthia. And so, Cynthia was amazing. Similar to Gin, she just with her shifting priorities with her job and her career and her kids, it was time for her to step down from this show.

So, then it was time to find another co-host and I was like, “What do I do? Where do I go?” So, honestly, Vanessa, I'm trying to think you were probably the first person I thought of. I think you were because we'd been talking anyways. I had been talking about how if Cynthia ever wasn't doing the show, how I would love for you to do the show. Do you remember that?

Vanessa Spina: We were just talking about it as, like, fantasy life. You were like, if things change, wouldn't it be so much fun or something for us to podcast together? When you said it, my first reaction was like “Oh, my God that would be so amazing.” But of course, it's not real or it was just something that were talking about as like, “Wouldn't that be so incredible?” But I didn't think it was something even in the realm of possibility because of where I live and where you live and how whenever we want to do other podcast episodes or chat, it's not impossible, but it takes some scheduling so it was just like, “Oh, wouldn't that be amazing? There's no way it could ever happen.” Was my first reaction or thought and then we kept talking about it and it was like wait, no, we could make this happen because we both care about this pretty much. We both care about this same amount which is a huge amount and so we're willing to make it happen, make it work no matter what. It was just, like, so incredibly exciting that we had to make it become a reality. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. Yeah, so for listeners who are not familiar and I will tell you about Vanessa, but she lives in Prague, which is very far away. So, yeah, with the timing thing, I'm, like, not a morning person. Vanessa has an adorable son, Luca. Of course, she's very busy as well, so her evenings are with the time difference. It's her evening right now. We had historically, even just like, me going on her show, had issues with scheduling for that. The scheduling issue was a little bit of a hurdle to get over. But I think we found a time that's going to work for us and hopefully a schedule that will be sustainable. Yeah, once we nailed that down and I think yeah, so were talking about it, like, fantasy life, like you said. Very soon after that, Cynthia and I had a conversation about Cynthia leaving the show. So, I was like, Vanessa, [laughs] but I'll tell listeners a little bit about you. You are a legend in this sphere. I was very familiar with your work, your handle, your name that you made for yourself, “Ketogenic Girl.” People might know you by that, but you are the host. Before the Optimal Protein Podcast, it was the Ketogenic Girl podcast, right? That what it used to be called?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it was called Fast Keto when it first started and was that for about four years?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, never mind, lies, Fast Keto, but now it's called the Optimal Protein Podcast. Vanessa, I'm having to stop myself from going on so many tangents because now I want to have a whole conversation with you about podcast naming and podcast name changing, but I'm going to stop myself. [laugh] I will table that. In any case, so your show has been nominated twice as a top three best podcasts at the Metabolic Health Summit. Okay, now I am going on a tangent. When that happened, did they just email you like you're nominated?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Well, it happened twice as you said and the first time that it happened, I think I was notified on social media, but ketogenic.com was also running it at the time and they actually sent me an award. So, I have this beautiful award for being nominated. I didn't even win. I was nominated. I have this amazing award from them and how they do it essentially, I think they just started tagging me in the post saying, like, these are the nominees, and then now the most recent one, they took a pause, I think, during COVID from doing the Keto Awards and then they restarted again with the Metabolic Health Summit and that was this past year. Each time it's like a crowdsource nomination thing. I didn't even know about it until I was nominated both times, which was like the biggest honor because that means it was all driven by my listeners and community.

And then once you're nominated, you're like, okay, now you kind of are aware that there's going to be voting, and so you get a little bit more involved in rallying the troops to go and vote and stuff like that. But both nominations were total surprise, and I just was, like, in just such odd amazement because even just being nominated for me is probably the biggest honors that I've had so far in my podcasting career.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. So, it's a crowdsource nomination?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, as in, like, they put it out there for people and then people vote on the nominations and then the nominations become the nominees who then get voted on again. If that makes sense in terms of, like, crowdsourcing, I mean, people are voting for the nominees.

Melanie Avalon: When they vote on the nominations does the Metabolic Health Summit put out a list of podcasts and then the people vote on the nominations?

Vanessa Spina: I don't think so. I think it's just, like, open to anything. Open to anything and they take the ones that get the most nominations and then it goes to the voting. So, anyone can be nominated for the awards. So, yeah, it's just been in a huge, huge honor like I said.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Did you go to anything for it?

Vanessa Spina: I really, really wanted to go to the Metabolic Health Summit this past year. I've actually scaled back a lot. I was telling you this when were just talking, the two of us in previous conversations, I've been scaling back on speaking because having Luca, he's my main priority in terms of what I spend my time doing, is being with him, educating him, nurturing him. Everything revolves around him now. For me to go and speak at an event, it's either like, leaving him, which is really hard to think of or bringing him with me with my husband. It's just a lot more of logistical planning and everything than ever before. So, I just become a lot more selective with what I go and speak to. And The Metabolic Health Summit is something that I would be incredibly honored to attend and Dr. Dom D’Agostino told me that-- we're talking about my nomination and he was like, “I voted for you.”

And I was like just to get to be there in that room with all the people who are attendees and speakers and presenters and I actually watched what happened? They videotaped it, but they put the Optimal Protein Podcast up on the big screens and shared that. There were top three podcasts and it was one of the top three. So, that was just like the most incredibly thrilling thing.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Who are the other two? Do you remember?

Vanessa Spina: For this past one, it was Dr Paul Saladino and it was Ben Azadi.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm airing my episode with Ben Azadi next week on my biohacking show.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. He actually won his podcast, one of the three. Yeah, it was just an honor also to be among the two of them because they're both amazing. So, I was really excited for that.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. Do you know my Paul Saladino story?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've heard you over the years and I think what you're referring to is when you interviewed him on your podcast, and because I heard you talking about it to Gin years ago.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon:  Oh, gosh, [laughs] on this show?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, on this show. I remember I was, like, walking by the riverbanks in Prague and you were talking about how you did the interview with him, and it got, like, a little spicy, a little contentious, and I was like, I got to listen to that one and I still haven't, but I have to at some point listen to it I thought about it the other day. It’s like I need to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was the second time I had him on the show. The first time I had him on-- he was one of my first guests-- I think he was my second or third guest on the biohacking podcast, which is crazy. And he was, like, going on a lot of shows. He had just started his show, but he wasn't huge like he is now. I literally have in the transcript-- I love Paul and I literally have in the transcript, like, us debating about meat versus meat and fruit. Did you hear that story?

Vanessa Spina: I think that's what you were debating about, right?

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Things got I think it's a little feisty in our second interview, which was, like, a little bit later, but in the first one, yeah, I was telling him, “Wouldn't meat and fruit be, like, ideal?” And he was like, “No, fruit is nature's porn. Don't have the fruit don't have-- and I was like, what about meat, fruit, and honey? [laugh] Now he's like, all about the meat, fruit, and honey. Told you, Paul. [laugh]

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing you got in writing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But what's also funny, speaking of podcasting at the time, because like I said he had just started his show and so he wanted all this advice on podcasting and we would do, like, calls, and he'd be like, “Tell me how to podcast.”

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. He went to the best in the biz.

Melanie Avalon: It was crazy. That was a rabbit hole. That's so cool. Oh, my goodness, that's so cool. We'll see friends, Vanessa is very, very legit. And also, speaking of, you mentioned your son. She's also an inspiration when it comes to childbearing and child raising. I just can't wait to see how your son manifests in the world because especially after interviewing Gabor Maté recently and like the role of childhood development, I just feel so good about your child.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Thank you. That means so much to me. Pete and I both prioritize him above everything else and in the sense that we just devote all of our free time to nurturing him, I think, as any parents do. But we're really wanting to prioritize him above a lot of other things. I think it just comes naturally to you as a parent, you just want to do that naturally. I think we're both at really good places in our careers, both he and I, where we also feel like we can do that and we can prioritize it. So, I think it's also a little bit of a privilege that we can take that time to be with him, but he just lights up our entire lives. He's just so incredible and amazing and being with him every day is such a joy.

So, I feel privileged also to get to just spend time with him because he's just the most amazing special human I've ever met. And I'm not saying that to brag about us as parents, but just children are just so incredibly pure and beautiful and the way that they manifest in the world and the way that they learn things, and it's just such an incredible thing to witness and be a part of. It's the best thing that's ever happened to Pete and I, outside of meeting each other. It's just the coolest most amazing thing I've ever experienced in my life until now is being his mom. So, yeah, thank you so much for saying that.

Melanie Avalon: So incredible. You like give me hope for romance and for having children.

Vanessa Spina: I love that, I love that. [laugh]

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So, this is things like food, supplements, workouts, and lifestyle choices including ways to optimize sleep and stress. What I love about InsideTracker is that InsideTracker tests provide optimal ranges, not conventional ranges, for over 40 biomarkers including magnesium, vitamin D, testosterone, cortisol, ferritin, which is the storage form of iron that is rare for doctors to test and the newly released ApoB, which I am so excited about.

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So, if you're ready to get a crystal-clear picture of what's going on inside your body along with science-backed recommendations to optimize what's not working, then visit insidetracker.com/Ifpodcast. And one of the things I really love about InsideTracker is it helps you track all of your results, all of your tests over time so you can see patterns, see your history. It makes predictions of where you'll be if you continue on your current trajectory. It is a game changer for making sense of your labs. I am obsessed with InsideTracker. Again, you can get 20% off sitewide at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast and we will put all of this information in the show notes.

So, for listeners, fun fact, before I even had ever started this show, like way back when I was just daydreaming about having a podcast, the way I first saw it in my head was doing it with somebody similar to my age, similar vibe, like a real friend vibe. I'm friends with Gin, I'm friends with Cynthia, but this is the first time I feel like if you lived here, we'd just be like hanging out 24/7.

Vanessa Spina: It's bestie vibes. I mean, it's just bestie vibes. There's something about bestie vibes that's different from other friendships or connections that you have with people and it's just like a natural, just a kindred spirit kind of thing that anyone can relate to with their best friends like your kindred spirits and we definitely are, it's undeniable. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I'm so excited about that. But what I'm also excited about is relating to what you just said. You bring a new perspective to all of this, which is the young mom with the young kids. We haven't had that before on the show. So, I'm really excited-- I'm really excited to see how that manifests with listener questions and how you can respond to that, it's very exciting.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. I love that you started out by talking about this community, this incredible community because it is so amazing. And like you said, it was going to make you tear up a little bit just how long listeners have been with this show. I consider myself a member of this community. I've been a long-time listener from the beginning and I absolutely loved your dynamic with Gin. It was amazing. Just the way that you guys bantered and that you brought such different perspectives I think is really so cool. It's almost like the show is sort of growing and evolving in its own way. And then having someone like Cynthia join with her medical background was just, like, mind-blowing for me as a listener. I was like this is amazing. We're going to have someone with this clinical aspect to bring to it. And she's so knowledgeable, so knowledgeable. Every episode I felt like I was learning so much from her because she's so incredibly knowledgeable.

I have huge shoes to fill, absolutely gigantic shoes to fill. I don't want anyone to have any misconceptions. I am not coming in to replace or fill those shoes or I'm not an expert on intermittent fasting. I have my own areas of expertise and as an author I have talked about and written about intermittent fasting. But both Gin and Cynthia are experts in intermittent fasting and authors specifically on the topic. They brought so much to this podcast and I hope to just bring, like you said, my own perspective to things. There are certain things that Cynthia and I personally aligned on like our protein focus. I think I can sort of carry the torch a little bit for that and bring new perspectives as well. Having a background with keto, having a different approach to intermittent fasting than like you do for example, and just bringing that other perspective to things as well.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's going to be absolutely perfect. Yeah. For listeners so you completed a two-year biomedical science program at the University of Toronto. You're from Canada, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Originally from Canada. And my family is all Canadian and I have, like, French sort of British heritage. And I actually grew up overseas for most of my life because my parents worked overseas for the Canadian government. So, I spent most of my life in China, in Asia, and coming back and forth to Canada in between. And then we went back to China when I was in grade nine and we did another posting there. And then instead of coming back to Canada, we went to the Philippines to Manila and I finished high school there. And I was doing an International Baccalaureate program and then I moved to Vancouver in Canada to go to university. So, I came back to my roots, came back to Vancouver, and like I said, I am Canadian, but I consider myself like an international citizen, like a citizen of the world because we've lived in so many places.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. That's amazing. My sister is actually right now in Tokyo.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's incredible. Yeah, Japan is just like another planet. That's so cool. It sounds like your family travels a lot.

Melanie Avalon: They do. This is how we're so different. I need your travel skills.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous of people with epic travel skills. It's like the one thing I want. Like, if I was before God and he was like, “What talent shall I give you?” I was like, “Give me travel skills.”

Vanessa Spina: You can get them. I know you love learning so much, and there is no more exciting, thrilling, like hands-on learning than travel. You have to go to all the places and see everything. Just the kind of person that you are, you would just love it so much.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I'm grateful that my travel fear didn't start. It was late-onset travel fear. I did a lot of traveling growing up, mostly like Europe and stuff. Working on it, working on it. Was that your undergrad, the program?

Vanessa Spina: No. I did a full undergrad at UBC and I was doing political science at the time because my passion was nutrition. So, I took nutrition as my elective. But I thought that I had to have like a very serious career because my parents were diplomats and I wanted to do something very serious like they did and very impactful. I just didn't really know what I was going to ultimately end up doing. So, I did political science. I think it's because also my brother did political science. I was like, well, he did it, so I'm going to do what my big brother did. While I was there, I figured out that I really love business, I really love finance, and I really love nutrition. But I don't know why, I just didn't think that it was something that I could do because my parents didn't do, like, scientific degrees.

And biology was my favorite subject in school when I was in high school. Especially, like, looking at the mitochondria and looking at all the organelles. I don't know why it didn't occur to me I didn't put it together at the time. So, I went into finance right after school, and I worked in the stock market in Vancouver, and I learned a lot about business. I have my Canadian securities license to be like a securities broker, stockbroker and I loved it. It was very exciting. It's where I met my husband. We met in finance at a financial conference in Vancouver and it wasn't until about seven years ago I started doing Ketogenic Girl as, like a passion, hobby side project. And I had like an Instagram Ketogenic Girl and it just absolutely took off. And it got to the point where my passion or side hustle, it wasn't really a side hustle, it was just my passion.

Like, my hobby started taking so much of my time that I made the decision to switch careers. So, I totally switched careers when I was pretty well established. And one, I was also, like, a news anchor for this financial show. And I loved it. It gave me a lot of media training and helped me interview people, and I loved being on stage, like behind the anchor desk and interviewing financial experts. It was super thrilling. I just got to pick the brains of all the most brilliant financial people, like, people from Dragons Den and all these amazing people. But I never felt at the end of the day that I was personally aligned with my passion. For me, that was always nutrition. It was always like health and science.

So, I don't know what happened, but I suddenly got the confidence, maybe because everything took off and my social media following was growing a lot. And then I wrote Keto Essentials, my first book, and I suddenly got the confidence maybe from community people that I was helping or what it was to go back and pursue science. So, I applied at University of Toronto and got into their biomedical science program, which was mostly focused on biochemistry, which is for someone who doesn't have a science background, it's like speaking Russian. It's basically like learning a new language. It's so complex and amazing.

But I loved it. So, from the first couple of exams I had where I was barely passing, I went to having 90% on everything towards the end of the program, on biochem especially, and I just took to it so much. As soon as I learned and understood the basics, I was like, flying through it. And it was also focused on physiology and also pharmacology, which was very interesting because that's when you learn all the first pass metabolism, aspects of metabolism, and everything. So, it was an incredible program. It was very hard and it took me two years, but I almost needed to level up to be able to keep up with some of the things that I was seeing, like social media debates about things like gluconeogenesis. I was like, I don't know who's right. I don't understand how to decipher what this means. I have to go back and learn biochem for myself so I can understand these pathways and then I can form my own opinion. So, I'm not a medical expert or anything like that, like I said I'm not an expert on intermittent fasting.

I do have my areas of expertise with regard to keto and protein and stuff. But, just going back and learning that stuff challenged me so much, and it was just a huge part of my education so that I could speak to some of the incredible guests that you and I have the honor of speaking to on a regular basis and at least be like somewhere on the same page with them and have also more advanced discussions I think is really important because sometimes you'll see these authors or experts and they'll be on a podcast sort of what's the word for it? Like a podcast circuit? [laughs] Like they're releasing a new book or whatever, and they go and do the same interview on every podcast because they submit questions, and I always want to get questions that nobody else asks. I know you're like that too. You have to go deeper and really understand the science behind things, I think, to have those deeper level conversations.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, see, that is huge. If I could download one degree or educational library into my head it would be biochemistry for sure. Does it really stick with you? So, for example, if you hear Krebs cycle, do you know all that?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, for the most part. But certain things, if you don't keep up with them, they will fade, so, you have to continuously-- I think that's why doctors have continuous medical training. You have to constantly brush up on the basics because you could be an expert on a certain topic one day or a certain pathway. You could know it in and out and then you could forget it because there're just so many things. There're so many things. It's not so much that you forget it, but it just kind of fades a little bit so sometimes you just have to like go back and refresh. But you know for the most part, a lot of it does stay with you because it is very foundational.

Melanie Avalon: That's incredible. I'm so jealous. That's amazing. Oh, you're going to bring so much to this show. Very excited about that. You've just kind of mentioned it in passing, but writing a book is no small feat. So, I have actually in front of me right now Keto Essentials: Your Complete Guide to the Ketogenic Diet. 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight by Vanessa Spina. And on the cover, it's your picture. And then we have-- I'm going to describe it. I'm curious for the pictures on the book, were you super involved in the design of the book creatively?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, as much as you can be. I definitely, like, it had to be a reflection of me or like a projection. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So, there's like a, is it chocolate mousse?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Chocolate mousse with whipped cream and then tenderloin béarnaise asparagus?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And then what are those? Are those rolls?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, those are goat cheese balls, [laughs] fried goat cheese balls.

Melanie Avalon:  Fried goat cheese balls. And then coconut something?

Vanessa Spina: There's zucchini chips. Zucchini chips at the bottom.

Melanie Avalon: And then tuna avocado salad.

Vanessa Spina: There's like a slaw with avocado and salmon sashimi on it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, then it continues on the back. Steak and like mushroom sauce?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And then strawberry almond salad?

Vanessa Spina: Yes?

Melanie Avalon: Was that fish next to it with the broccoli or chicken?

Vanessa Spina: That's lemon chicken.

Melanie Avalon:  Lemon chicken. Sweet cinnamon.

Vanessa Spina: Crepes? Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yes. And then onion rings? No, no, no, calamari.

Vanessa Spina: Calamari? Yes. Good eye. That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon:  And then wait, is that orange juice?

Vanessa Spina: That's actually lemon curd in shot glasses.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay, okay. So, friends, if you're looking for keto recipes, definitely get this book. It is absolutely gorgeous. Tons of pictures, tons of recipes. We get a lot of questions on this show with people, especially people on the keto diet and recipe recommendations, so definitely get this. And did you come up with all these recipes yourself?

Vanessa Spina: I did, yes.

Melanie Avalon:  All of them?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It was such a fun process because I love cooking, like, I've always been passionate about cooking. My mom really inspired me a lot in the kitchen and she also took me to a lot of cooking classes and really taught me how to cook well, I think. And she's just such a fantastic cook and hostess, so that's always been a big passion of mine. I really wanted to share all these amazing recipes that I have. And the reason I say amazing is because I was telling you, I've grown up all over the world, so I was really exposed to a lot of different culinary traditions, and a lot of my recipes are like Thai curries or like lemon chicken or inspired by the best dishes that I tasted in every country. So, I was like, I got to take the best recipes of every country that I've tried and then ketofy them.

And I was already doing that for myself. So, when it was time to write the book, I was like, I'll just share what we make on a regular basis. And in that sense, it was pretty easy to come up with the recipes and just go by inspiration because I already knew what we loved and I knew that people were going to really enjoy them because I don't like to put anything in my mouth that I don't absolutely love. So, yeah, it definitely was a fun process and creative process and it was a very satisfying inspirational process.

Melanie Avalon: I'm flipping through it right now, getting really hungry. What's your favorite recipe in it?

Vanessa Spina: Gosh, I have so many. Probably the spinach and artichoke dip. That was one of our favorite recipes that we always used to get at Milestones Restaurant, which is a really popular restaurant in Vancouver. It's super keto without the tortilla chips, right. So, it's one of my favorite things and it's also just like a fun dish that you can bring with you to parties and social events where you can enjoy it with some pork rinds or cucumbers or keto crackers. Like, there're so many options for that kind of stuff now, so that's probably one of my favorites. Goat cheese balls are definitely up there. [laugh] I love fried goat cheese or just like fried cheese. It's actually a huge thing in Prague is the fried cheese. It's like on every single menu.

Melanie Avalon:  You have a dairy-free fettuccine Alfredo. Super cool.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Vegan fettuccine alfredo. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. And for listeners, on each page, there's a very easy-to-read, like, label system where it says if it's dairy-free, egg-free, or nut-free, and it gives the macronutrients, so the fat, protein, carbs, fiber, calories. So, super amazing, I'm assuming with the photos, were you actually there for any of the photos, or did they just plate it and take the photos themselves and show you the gallery?

Vanessa Spina: I took some of them. [laughs] I took some of them and the majority of them were by a photographer that I hired and that I was working with. I was already working with her on my meal plan. It was perfect because she was already used to doing a lot of this stuff. So, when I first started, I would spend all day making a recipe and then I would photograph it. But it was during the winter in Prague and so the light would start going down like around 3 in the afternoon. So, by the time I had made a recipe and prepared it because you also have to style it with like different colored backgrounds, like bright backgrounds and colorful backgrounds. You can't just put a plate. You have to have a presentation and then you have to have some of the twigs of parsley or rosemary in the background and then, like, a splash of powdered whatever.

It's an artistic shot and I think so much goes into it. So, by the time I would have that all setup, I would start taking photos, which I wasn't an expert in either taking, I wasn't a photographer, so I also had to learn how to take photos, but it was really fun to learn all those things. But by the time I started taking pictures, it would start getting dark. I was like, this is not working. At this rate, this book is going to take like 10 years. I was like, I should just work with my photographer and she can fill in the rest. I get excited when I flip through and I see like one on ones that I did, but the vast majority she definitely took and with lots of bright light because yeah, she was a professional at it, but she would send me the shots, and from working together for a while, she had idea of my aesthetic. And I put a lot of marble backgrounds, a lot of dark wood because that's kind of the aesthetic that I like. But it was really fun working with her too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is amazing. I love how in the glossary in the back is with pictures. That's super helpful.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, and there's like meal plans in the back with little photos there.

Melanie Avalon: This is so beautiful. Also, sidenote, it starts getting dark at 3 in Prague.

Vanessa Spina:  In the winter, like in the, like the dead of winter, the light like the sun sets sometime around like four to 4 to 4:30. So, you start losing that full spectrum light already.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous. I need to move to Prague.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, please. It's very cold and dark in the winter here. You would love it.

Melanie Avalon: Sign me up. I'm all about the darkness. [laugh]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's hard to do like artistic projects or take photos, but yeah, it gets really dark.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Okay, so listeners, again get the book Keto Essentials and then you mentioned your programs. So, what's your history doing online programs?

Vanessa Spina: I started the first one actually by request. People were messaging me on Instagram and asking me for meal plans because keto, especially around that time when I first started posting about keto was like 2015, 2016. And actually really interestingly, the thing that brought me to keto was intermittent fasting. I have to just mention this because I was at the hair salon, I was reading a magazine and there was an article on Michael Mosley and like 5:2. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, this intermittent fasting thing is amazing.” So, I started doing it and then somehow I found Ori Hofmekler's Warrior Diet book.

Melanie Avalon: That's how I started.

Vanessa Spina: No, really?

Melanie Avalon: Well, first I read this blog post, Rusty Moore, he had this blog post online called "eat one meal a day." Like, literally, that's what it was called.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Does that ring a bell?

Vanessa Spina: Maybe that's how I found it. I wish I could remember how I found it.

Melanie Avalon: This was like old school internet. This was like the days of a blog post and hundreds of comments. So, no Facebook [laughs] like forums. So, I would check the blog posts to read the new comments every day. But it was like, “Eat one meal a day to lose weight.” I was like, what is this? And then I found Ori.

Vanessa Spina: I wish I could remember how I found him. Maybe it was like on a-- because around that time I started listening to podcasts as well. And maybe I heard him recommend it or something on a podcast. Like that's very possible but I loved his book and I was like--

Melanie Avalon:  Ori’s book?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And the one-meal-a-day concept. So, I started with the 5:2 and then I started doing the one meal a day, the OMAD approach. And it really worked well for me. At the time, I wanted to lose about 15 to 20 pounds and I lost 15 pounds doing that. And I really leaned up, but I hadn't fully changed my macros.

Melanie Avalon: What meal were you eating for the one meal?

Vanessa Spina: It was like a super high carb.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, sorry, when or both. Well, I guess yeah, both, like, when? Was it your dinner?

Vanessa Spina: Was doing dinner. I found that to be the easiest because you start each day with the most amount of willpower that you're going to have each day. So, it made sense to me to have that meal at the end of the day when you have the least amount of willpower left when you're done. So, using up all your willpower for decision making or whatever else. So, it just made the most sense to me. I was doing pretty high carb and I was vegetarian for most of my adult life. So, I was doing vegetarian super high carb like most vegetarians. You're eating really high carbs.

And so, I was doing that high carb and I was definitely getting results, but I wasn't really noticing some of the other benefits that I wanted, some of the other health benefits. And so, doing keto I started by going gluten free and then I started changing up my macros and trying out keto. I think I heard Dr. Dom D’Agostino and I heard Dr. Peter Attia on Tim Ferriss' podcast. And I was like, these guys are amazing. I have to try this keto thing that they're doing because they were like some of the first people who were doing it and talking about it. And they really sold me on it. It sounded amazing.

So, I started doing keto with the OMAD, but it was just interesting that sort of my coming to keto all just started with intermittent fasting. I had the social media going with the keto and for me it was always combined with intermittent fasting from the very beginning because they go so well together. Not that you have to do one or the other or like you can't do them separately, but when you do keto you have ketones from ketosis and you have the ability to go for long periods of time doing intermittent fasting. I think a lot of people find it more easy to do it when they're fat adapted, so they just go very well together.

So, I had people starting to ask me about the meal plans and asking me for recipes. There was one woman who wrote me and she said, “Can you just make me like a 14-day meal plan?” So, I was like, “Okay, I'll make you one.” And it was Christmas time. So, Pete was like, all by himself. He still brings this up to tease me, but he ended up spending all of Christmas by himself walking around the center of Prague, which is really beautiful and magical. He was by himself because I was at home writing this meal plan for this woman and I ended up turning it into the 28-day Ketogenic Girl challenge that really took off.

I started like a Facebook coaching group for it and it was so much fun, it was amazing. So many people were interested in it. And I really enjoyed working with people on the meal plans. At the time, it was a resource, I think, that was needed because there just wasn't a lot of information out there about how to do keto, which sounds crazy now because there's so much, like, it totally exploded. Yeah, so keto has completely exploded since then, but that was how it first started, and thousands of people took the program and it was a ton of fun to do it at the time.

Melanie Avalon: Mine as well was through Ori, but I did the opposite view. I went keto first and then adapted intermittent fasting with one meal a day. But I agree with you that when you're doing one or the other, the other one very easily falls in line because they both create this state of fat adaptation and running on ketones. I actually have follow-up questions about that, but I'm going to save it, I think, because our next episode, somebody actually asks about this. So, I think I'll ask you some more questions about this next episode. Teaser listeners. Also, a really funny story just really quickly. Have you interviewed Ori?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I know that I think I heard you have or you and Gin did.

Melanie Avalon: We did which was very surreal because that was forever ago. It was before my biohacking show. So, I was still very much like-- I'm still in awe of the guests that I have on, but it wasn't routine for me to be interviewing incredible people all the time. But I had a moment. Did I tell you what happened with my sister the other day with this? So, my sister, the one who's in Japan, she's like crazy in a good way. She's like one of my closest friends, but she does-- like we're polar opposites and envision like the movie Frozen. Like, I am Elsa, like cold, calm, blonde. I want to just stay in my ice castle and wear pretty dresses. She's like spunky and crazy and out there and changing her hair every day. So, she does taekwondo and she's like really high up in it. But she was talking about one of the guys-- This is in Atlanta. She was talking about one of the coaches, and his name was something like Hofmekler. And I was like, “Oh, Hofmekler?” I was like this guy Ori Hofmekler was like the reason I do intermittent fasting. And she asked the Hofmekler guy about Ori. It was his uncle. It's his uncle. [laugh] Like what are the odds? [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: That's insane. That's incredible.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that crazy? So, needless to say, we should have him on this show me and you.

Vanessa Spina: I would love that. I just wrote in my notes that I need to interview him because I can't believe I have it yet. And so, yeah, that would be incredible.

Melanie Avalon: We should. Okay, I'm going to reach out to him, like, ASAP. We can have him on, him and Rick Johnson. Sorry, Vanessa and I love Rick Johnson. [laugh]

Vanessa Spina: We're like his number one fans like fan club over here fan club manager.

Melanie Avalon: I know and Peter Attia. Which sidenote, did you see Peter Attia on Joe Rogan this week?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, no, I missed that.

Melanie Avalon: He gives Joe a monologue about how incredible Taylor Swift is. I think you saw my video.

Vanessa Spina: I can't get that image out of my head. It's like burned in my head. Like the pants. It's, like, burned in my mind.

Melanie Avalon: Peter posted a video of going to the Taylor Swift concert with his daughter and dressing up like Harry Styles. And I was just thinking because that hadn't occurred to me while you were talking. I was thinking because Taylor Swift is like my ultimate, ultimate. If I was at the Taylor Swift concert and Peter Attia was there too.

[laughter]

Literally, I would die. [laughs] I'm crying. I would be crying. [laughs] Like wouldn't know where to look. Like, if Taylor's on stage and Peter's like [laughs] next to me and he's dressed up like Harry Styles, I mean, wow. Okay. Bringing it back anyways, [laughs] okay.

Vanessa Spina: This is going to be our biggest challenge you guys. Give us some grace. Our biggest challenge is going to be, like, staying on target with things on task because we could go on a tangent every second.

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm also thinking I got to talk to the editors because normally the editors, the style of the editing is they edit it. So, like, you talk, I talk, you talk, I talk. Like I don't like overlapping. But I'm going to tell them that they can lighten up a little bit because if we're both laughing, you can just [laughs].

Vanessa Spina: Imagine it's like just you laughing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: No, because that's the way they're going to do it if I don't tell them.

Vanessa Spina: I've had that happen on podcasts before, and I'm like, “Oh, man, I was laughing so hard during that and I feel bad because the guest is just, like, laughing by themselves.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] Okay, so making a note. Okay, Dan. Oh and for the editors, when they edit this, you can just leave all this in.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

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Something else I really want to talk about before letting you go. Okay? So, recap for listeners. Not only is Vanessa the host of an incredible podcast, so many things we talk about that's been nominated, not only is she the author of a beautiful, gorgeous book with amazing keto recipes, not only does she have an incredible biomedical science degree in biochemistry, but she is also an entrepreneur, a fellow entrepreneur. I have been so inspired by Vanessa. She has created two products. For listeners who are not familiar yet with this, are you ready? She created a Tone Device, which measures breath acetone aka breath ketones. Yes, friends, the new cohost of the show created a breath ketone analyzer. I'm sure listeners are, like, buzzing with excitement right now because we get so many questions about this. So, having you here is just amazing.

And now we can just, like, people always want recommendations and so be like, get this now. And then you also created as well, wait for it, listeners. What is something I've been talking about since day one, almost that would be red light therapy. And Vanessa has created the Tone Lux red light therapy line as well. So, this is incredible and it is no small feat to do that. So, my big question for you is just, like, how? What was the process like? A, well, why and how? So, what made you decide to create these? And what was that process like manifesting your vision? Because I think so many people have dreams of doing something like that, but actually doing it, so, few people do it.

Vanessa Spina: Well, thank you. I consider my tires pumped. Thank you so much for pumping my tires so much. You're just so kind and generous with your words. It was the most satisfying creation process. I think as humans, we're all creators and it's so satisfying when you have a vision, you believe in it, you manifest it. So, I really wanted to create a noninvasive, more accessible tool for interpreting ketones because one of the things that I know from working with people over the years that testing your blood is painful and expensive and you don't really have context for what it means. When you get the results, you have to kind of go and interpret that and learn that.

So, that method is primarily focused on testing your beta-hydroxybutyrate or blood ketones. And then there's the urine method, which is just not the most pleasant experience anyone who's done that. It's not easy and efficient, you can't do it anywhere, it's not very portable. The other thing with acetoacetate, which is that third ketone you're measuring with urine, is after a while your body stops excreting it. So, it's just not very useful. It's useful at the beginning when you're going into ketosis, but it's not useful long term.

So, with acetone, it's really interesting because it's not a fuel in the way that beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate are. It's a by-product of producing and utilizing those fuels. So, it's sort of an off gas of making and using those ketones. So, it's always an issue for me when I'm measuring my blood ketones, I was like, well, this tells me a snapshot of what my ketone level is right now in my blood. But I have no idea how much my body made. I have no idea how much my tissues took, how much they used. You're getting sort of a picture of what's left over, what's circulating.

So with breath acetone, I always thought it would be a great additional measure to have or sometimes maybe a replacement as sort of a proxy for what's happening in terms of the production and the utilization side. And just like adding in that other metric that could say, well, it could quantify it a little bit more for you. So, when you are in ketosis, you are in ketogenesis you're at the highest rate of fat burning. So, if your body is producing these blood ketones and acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate, some of that is spontaneously being degraded to acetone, and it's this tiny, tiny particle that diffuses through your lungs. So, you can get a measure or a picture of how much acetone is my body diffusing through my lungs. So, how much of this byproduct am I diffusing at any time?

So, the other great thing about it is you don't have to prick your finger, which is not the most pleasant thing to be doing or the most practical thing to do. You don't have to buy expensive test strips. You just invest in one device. You breathe into it for 5 to 6 seconds and it'll give you a reading, but it'll also give you little bit of context. So, I also added in like light fat burning or fat burning zone so people know a little bit of context in terms of what's going on. And you can do it an unlimited amount of time. So, you don't have to keep buying those test strips, which for anyone who wants to test their blood ketones, like once a day for a year, it can be anywhere from like $360 to $700 to do that. So, what's super interesting is Dr. Dom D’Agostino also found that breath acetone is very highly correlated with things like latency to seizure and a lot of the things that are associated with the benefits of ketone. So, there're a lot of benefits to measuring it, to knowing it.

In some cases, it can be a replacement for other testing devices, but for the most part it can give you maybe some additional feedback, some additional insight into what your rate of fat burning is, what your body is doing with those ketones. So, for me, it was just such an amazing, satisfying experience because I pictured it in my head. I knew I wanted it to involve breath. I knew I wanted it to be feminine and girly because there're so many biohacking products on the market that I think are designed and created for men because there're a lot of biohacking men out there. So, I wanted to create something girly, feminine, something that's like lipstick, it's compact, you can take it with you in your purse easily. You can take it out when you're on the go and you don't have to go into another room to prick your finger.

It just makes it easy and it's aesthetically pleasing. It's pretty, it's girly, it's feminine. I also have more masculine versions of it, the black and gold, but the black and rose gold and the white and gold and pink are very feminine, and I think they're beautiful. So, for me to have that vision of what it would look like and then take it through to designing a prototype, creating that, hiring various people to do that with me, and then finding a factory to make it, testing at different factories in terms of what they could do. And it's a really exciting space to be in because there's a lot of research that has been done on, like, blood ketones, acetoacetate. There's a lot of research that's ongoing and forthcoming about acetone. And I think it's a great sort of way to quantify what's going on with you when you're doing different types of intermittent fasting.

And that's something I'm really excited to talk to you about on the podcast, in general, is just like what are tools and ways that you can use to see what should my ideal fasting window and eating window be? Because there're different approaches that you can use and different strategies. And if there're ways that you can quantify which one is working the best for you, then that's a cool way to put that experimentation into context and get some parameters or some feedback on that.

Melanie Avalon: So, I was just thinking, Vanessa, because I know we're running out of time on today's episode, I was thinking about how I have so many more questions about this and then I just got hit with this wave of gratitude because we have so many episodes upcoming to talk about all of this.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, you're right.

Melanie Avalon: And it's literally like the content of this show. Like, it's what listeners want to hear about. I'm just so grateful. So, my point is, I have a lot of follow-up questions to what you just said and I'm going to save all of them for a future episode. But in the meantime, how can listeners get your Tone Device?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, if you go to ketogenicgirl.com, you can check out there's like I mentioned the three different color variations. And I also have all the Tone Lux red light therapy panels there as well. And also links in my profile if you're on Instagram @ketogenicgirl, if you're on any of the accounts for that like Tone Device or the Tone Lux or the Optimal Protein Podcast, you can find the link in the profile there.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, for listeners, we will put links to that in the show notes and these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode316. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And yeah, first one in the books. I'm just so happy.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so happy too. I had so much fun this last hour with you. It felt like five minutes and I'm so excited for what's to come. I can't wait to be with listeners every week.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm just so excited. So, resources for listeners, links I gave the show notes. If listeners would like to submit their questions to the show because most listeners have probably been with us, but if you're new welcome today. Normally this is a listener Q&A format, so we answer listener questions. So, to submit your questions, you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there or you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. 

Oh, oh, important announcement, to welcome Vanessa because we really want to welcome her to the show, we're doing an incentive for that. So, if you go to Apple Podcasts and write a review of the show or if you already have a review of the show up, no worries, you can update that review. Just include in the review, especially after hearing this episode, what you're excited to experience or learn with Vanessa and then send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and you will be entered to win over $500 worth of beauty counter products, which is incredible.

You guys know that I'm obsessed with beauty counter and last night I was literally-- I'm sending Vanessa like all these beauty counter products. I'm going to get her obsessed as well. So, definitely enter that. And I think that's all the things. Oh yeah, Instagram, you can follow us @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. What is your handle on Instagram?

Vanessa Spina: It is @ketogenicgirl.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect, @ketogenicgirl. So, okay, anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I just want to thank all the listeners for being here. This is such a massive honor to be joining you all and I'm just so excited to chat geek out about all of these favorite topics of ours.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm really excited about the first listener question episode next week.

Vanessa Spina: Yay, me too.

Melanie Avalon: It's going to be so fun. Okay, well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Talk to you next week, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

 

 

Apr 02

Episode 311: Trauma, Cancer Prevention, Obesity, Calorie Restriction, Fasting Mimicking Diet, Digestive Rest, Kid’s Nutrition, Special Teachers, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 311 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

AvalonX Magnesium 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Avalonx Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers, Common Allergens, Heavy Metals,  Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

21:50 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

23:50 - Listener Q&A: Niki - IF and cancer prevention

Intermittent fasting in the prevention and treatment of cancer

Episode 57: Dr. Valter Longo!: The Fasting Mimicking Diet, Eating For Longevity, High Vs. Low Protein Diets, Ancestry Diets, Meat Vs. Plant Diets, Rebuilding The Gut, Food Tolerances, Mindset And The Immune System, The Blue Zones, And More!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

Prolonged Nightly Fasting and Breast Cancer Prognosis

46:05 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

48:45 - Listener Q&A: Holli - IF question and comment

56:10 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Do you have a particular teacher that influenced or inspired you?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 311 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free organic free-range chicken thighs for a year plus $20 off. Yes, that's right. I'm talking free organic, free-range chicken thighs for an entire year and $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high-quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high-quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild-caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value.

Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage-breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable, and better for you and the planet all at home.

Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken thighs for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. Yes, that's 3 pounds of bone and chicken thighs free in every box for a year plus $20 off your first order. When you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 311 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: Good, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Good. I have been dealing with a potential dog issue over the last four or five days, which I'm so happy to report with tremendous gratitude that my dog's biopsy came back benign. So, big exhale. Thankfully, the vet did not make me wait all day to get the results. I knew they had them yesterday, but the other vet was not willing to discuss them with me, noting it was a complicated, "Report."

Melanie Avalon: That's scary.

Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly. I was like, there's a lot of ways you could have described the report and saying complicated doesn't make me feel reassured. So, she called me first thing this morning. I started my day, literally was outside walking my dogs and got her phone call. It was reassuring to have that information. It doesn't mean that he's not going to develop a problem later, but at least for right now, it does not appear to be cancerous. So, that's very reassuring, because he's 10 years young, he's still young enough as a dog that it is not enough time to have to contemplate end-of-life decisions and things that anyone that has a relationship with an animal that they love, all the way from people that love reptiles, all the way to furry things. My dog is a big contributor to my happiness level in my life. Knowing that there was a potential for a problem weighed very heavily on me for the last four or five days. So, grateful that today I can look optimistically towards the future.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so sorry you went through that. Is he feeling, okay? I know he was sick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, he's feeling fine. I think after the 24 hours after he had metabolized all the anesthesia, he was back to his kind of spunky, grumpy self. Like, he's not grumpy with me. He's pretty much grumpy with anyone that bothers him. His little personality idiosyncrasies we've all acclimated to. But he has a lot of anxiety, which is normal when older dogs go to the vet. Even with trazodone, before going to the vet for what we thought initially was an ultrasound that turned into a biopsy, the trazodone didn't take the edge off much and they gave him a pretty good dose of trazodone.

And so, when the vet and I were speaking this morning, she said, is it any wonder that his adrenal glands appear to be stressed? I think it's evident that he doesn't enjoy coming to the vet even though the vet is wonderful and this is common with older dogs. I think some of it is-- they get a decline in cognitive functioning, so they may not be able to kind of buffer the stress of being in a place where they think-- much like little kids, they think they're going to get hurt or they're going to be separated from their owner.

So, yeah, there was a lot of praying and a lot of crying, a lot of just being hopeful, as my husband, who's the most optimistic human being in the world, kept saying, was, we don't have anything that we need to be stressed about yet. I was like, "Speak for yourself." [laughs] So, yeah, he had part of his belly shaved and trying to keep him away from licking, which I'm sure as the fur grows back, it's probably a little bit itchy, but we've got a solid plan and he's going to-- so what can happen with adult humans as they get older and also happens in animals, is they can get the sundowning.

I noticed that he gets anxious at night, which is new, and the vet and I were talking about it, and so we're going to use a drug called gabapentin as needed. Not something he has to take every day, but to help him because I'm noticing that's a new symptom and something I used to see in a lot of my patients. Certainly not something I'm not familiar with, but yeah, it's hard to watch our pets get older. It really is.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, no, I'm sorry that-- oh, man. I don't personally have any pets, but my parents do, and I did growing up, of course. So, I almost don't want a pet for the reason of not wanting to lose the pet in the end.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's the hardest thing. I mean that's what I was behooving to the vet about on Thursday, was this is the hardest part of being a pet owner. Unlike humans where euthanasia is pretty much frowned upon, you do have the opportunity to ensure that your pet doesn't suffer. For me, I was like, "I don't want him to have his spleen removed." I mean, come on, he's almost 11 years old and he'd have to be in the doggy ICU for a couple of days. I was like, that's not a direction I want to go in because that wouldn't be fair to him. Ultimately, had it been malignant, his potentiality for living another six months was not particularly high. I'm just grateful that whatever amount of time we still have with him we're going to enjoy and savor and just be grateful that we didn't have to make a tough decision.

Melanie Avalon: And what type of dog?

Cynthia Thurlow: This is my labradoodle, so people on social media know that I refer to him affectionately as my lovey. [laughs] So, he's the smartest, most intuitive pet I've ever owned. And we have another doodle and Baxter's like comedic relief. He's just a much less serious dog. Cooper is a very serious dog. He's kind of like an old soul. Jokingly, we've always said he doesn't think he's a dog, which is part of his problem, which is why he doesn't like to play with other dogs, he tolerates Baxter, but, yeah, he's my lovey, he's my buddy.

Melanie Avalon: Well, sending lots of love and healing and hopefully it gets better.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's the one thing about pets, they really make you value time because time with them is fleeting. You just have to savor the good times and pray you get as much quality of life for them for as long as possible.

Melanie Avalon: The stress piece surrounding it reminds me I just finished-- Thank you so much for this introduction, by the way, Gabor Maté's book. I have that interview now next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, he's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I just remember he did talk about pets in like one small part of the book. How was that interview that you had with him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Incredible. I think that you have to do the work to be able to get and facilitate a great conversation with someone like that because I read the book and normally, I read pretty fast and I retain quite a bit. But I had to read it and kind of put it aside because it made me think a lot about my parents and the things they grew up in that impacted the way they parented me and the way they've interacted in the world. One of the things I said to him was, your book allows me to view them even more compassionately than I already had been. And it also makes me understand that most of us really don't understand what trauma represents.

And so, for me, it was very transformational. For anyone that's listened to that podcast interview, it's the most personal one I've ever done. And he was doing a little bit of therapeutic intervention and interaction with me. I think that the way that we grow as human beings is to challenge ourselves, and that was a challenging interview for me because the only way to do the interview properly was to be transparent about my own experiences, my own journey, my own work that I'm constantly doing.

I jokingly tell my husband I think I'll be doing therapy till the day I die because I think there's always something more we can improve upon or a better way to understand other people or our own behavior. I think his work has really been instrumental and what I appreciate about him, in particular, is he's so gracious. Obviously, he's got this New York Times bestselling book and he's still doing press. He doesn't have to, but he's still doing a lot of press, which tells me that he just wants to help people. I think that's just incredible and it's a sign of the kind of person that he is and the level of impact that his work is making. I'm sure you're really excited to interview him next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited and I was thinking about this. I think we're both going to benefit from the conversation that you've already had and the conversation I'm going to have so much. It's kind of, I think, opposite sides of the spectrum. Because the thing I really want to ask him about, he has a whole section on people who perceive having really happy memories, like not recalling any childhood trauma, which is me for sure, because he has a whole section on this, like people who have a happy childhood, and he basically says that there was still trauma. So, I'm really excited to talk to him about that, especially because I feel like I passed the question because he said he had a question that he asks everybody who says that and then that kind of weeds through.

But the question is, I don't know if you remember this, when you were young and you felt scared or afraid or angry or whatever emotion, did you have a parent that you could talk to or who did you talk to about it? And he says most people who have things that manifest as trauma today, which is like chronic health issues or mental health issues, don't pass that test. I'm really excited to have that whole conversation because I feel like I did talk to my mom [laughs] about stuff. But he even says that a high achiever mentality is like trauma driven and so literally everything is trauma according to him. So, I'm excited to have this conversation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and it's interesting because his concept of trauma is that it's a wound. It offers up this kind of more simplified, simplistic way of looking at trauma. I was actually talking about this with a group that I teach this morning, talking about adverse childhood events and how that leads to autoimmunity and weight loss resistance and all this interesting research that's come out. And I encouraged some of these women, I was like, if you've grown up with abuse, neglect, etc. Do the work in terms of helping yourself heal so that you don't potentiate that. I always say that my children, I didn't get the parents that I needed or I wanted, I should say. I got the parents that I needed to help break multi-generational trauma that had gone on. In many ways, I'm so grateful that I didn't have the types of parents that I wanted because it made me create for my own children a very healthy relationship because I've done so much work and my husband's been so supportive of the whole healing journey.

But I'm sure that people come to him with differing backgrounds and perspectives and I'm sure it will yield a really enlightening and helpful discussion for the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast listeners because there's always something more to learn. It's not like we learn it all and then we don't continue to evolve and shift and change our perspectives as we get older. I think there's always a nugget to learn from. So, I look forward to listening to it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. Just two quick thoughts. One is, I think similar to you, my mom had a lot of trauma and then I know she always tried to make it her goal to not have the things happen that she had growing up with us. That sounds similar to your approach with your kids. There's so much. So, I literally just finished it. Now I have to go through all the notes and clean it up and synthesize my thoughts. But there're so many things I want to ask him. It's a long book.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, it's a book that took me a couple of weeks to get through because I could only absorb so much at a time because it challenged me. It challenged me just on a personal and a professional level because I think most of our listeners know I trained in Baltimore and trauma of my patients experienced that we didn't realize how substantial and significant that was on their development and explains a lot of behavior. Like, I have a very bright 15-year-old and he was talking about choices that people make.

I just looked at him and I said, "I hate to say this to you because I don't want to say this to you, but I'm going to. You realize you've grown up incredibly privileged and that you have two parents that are happily married, that have been very focused on making sure that you are nurtured and you have experiences and there's no abuse in this home and there's no drug addiction and just like very simple things." And he had never considered that. I think kids, in many ways, when they grow up in healthy environments, they just take for granted that's everyone's norm.

I just, like, pointing out to them, I was like, "This is not a criticism, but your perspective has been created based on your own experience, which is fine, but with the understanding that kids you go to school with and kids that you'll go to college with and people you'll meet throughout your lifetime have had real struggles to get where they are and just how incredibly fortunate you are. I hope that you understand that and maybe you don't at 15, but I hope you do when you're a young adult because it's very different." He always says, "It's so different than the way you grew up. I know." I said, "I only share that with you so that you understand that your reality is not everyone's reality."

And then he kind of processed that and came back to me later and was like, "I want to learn more about this." I said, "Okay, it's probably time to be doing more volunteer work and more than what we've been doing. I think the pandemic has kind of put a dent in and being able to be as free to volunteer like we had been pre-pandemic." But that's a whole separate tangential conversation.

Melanie Avalon: I like that perspective about other people's traumas. I think for me, what it's really going to help as well is understanding why certain people act the way they act, having a more informed perspective of people's reactionary actions and triggers and things like that being trauma related. I also like, though, to that point, I like that he talks about how people also compare their traumas and how that basically you can still have trauma even if it's not as, "Bad" as other people's trauma. There's just so much I'm very, very excited about it. He just interviewed Prince Harry.

Cynthia Thurlow: I saw that. I was very conflicted.

Melanie Avalon: I didn’t watch, I haven't watched it yet.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, there was a side of me that was curious and then, I don't know, I have a lot of objective reasonable friends that have read his book and I was kind of like "Well, I feel conflicted about all of that." As much as I would love to see Gabor interview him, I just opted not to.

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Okay, shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is a question from Nikki. Subject is intermittent fasting and cancer prevention. Hi, Melanie and Cynthia, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about recommendations for intermittent fasting with respect to cancer prevention. I have a family history of breast cancer and as I am now in my 40s, I'm more serious about making sure I've done everything I can to lower my risk. Melanie, I did listen to your interview with Dr. Jason Fung on the subject and read his book, but I don't remember him giving any actual time or protocol recommendations.

These days I don't fast as intensely as I used to. It ranges anywhere from 13 to 16 hours as I find it difficult to get all my protein in with a shorter feeding window. I would be interested to know if more fasting would be recommended from this perspective. If, for example, your general risk of cancer could be significantly lowered if you fasted 24 hours at least once a week or even once a month, I'd be motivated to add that in.

I do know that Dr. Satchin Panda recommended fasting for at least 13 hours to lower your risk of breast cancer. That's why this is currently my minimum number. But I'd love to know your thoughts as to whether more is better and to what extent. Thanks so much for all you do. Best, Nikki.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Nikki. So, thank you so much for your question. I know Cynthia and I both have a lot of information on this. I did a deep, deep dive into fasting and cancer and I'll just spiel out what I found. I do remember reading, obviously, I remember, but I read Dr. Jason Fung's The Cancer Code and did have him on the show and I was surprised reading his book. He did not talk about fasting very much in that book at all. Did you read that book?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I remember thinking that was interesting. But In any case, so I found a really nice review from 2021. It's published in the Journal CA, which is A Cancer Journal for Clinicians, and the title is Intermittent Fasting in the Prevention and Treatment of Cancer. And so, I'm just going to go through some of the findings. I know Nikki's question is specifically about cancer prevention, but I just wanted to provide sort of an overview of what the literature does show about fasting and cancer to date or at least until that review. So, basically, well, just cancer stats.

Cancer is the second leading cause of mortality and morbidity in the US. So, it accounted for an estimated 608,570 deaths in 2021 alone. It's estimated at least at that time that 42% of cancers are largely informed by modifiable lifestyle risk factors. Basically, your lifestyle is perpetuating, encouraging, and potentially could be a treatment for cancer. And so, overweight and obesity specifically relate to at least 13 different types of cancers, and the reason that's important, obviously, is that fasting often results in treatment for obesity and being overweight. So, there could be something going on there.

Interestingly, there's something called the obesity paradox in cancer research, which is that in some forms of cancer, it seems like obesity is protective against cancer. But the study authors were hypothesizing that a lot of that might be due to methodology issues or just looking at the data sort of incorrectly. There are a few cases where there're specific reasons that obesity might be protective in one type of cancer. It specifically creates a type of protective immune cell in the fat, but that seemed to be far and few between and it's more likely methodology stuff.

On the flipside, a lot of factors of being overweight and obese are related to cancer pathways. That's things like inflammation, high insulin, which when you have high insulin that can protect cancer, like a dampening of things that you would find in calorie restriction, which calorie restriction is actually-- and I think it's pretty interesting, it is found to be the most robust intervention to date for cancer prevention in rats, monkeys, and humans.

And so that's for a lot of reasons and a lot of these overlap with fasting. That is things like decreased production of growth factors, inflammatory cytokines, anabolic hormones, as well as reduced oxidative stress and DNA damage. There are a lot of studies on calorie restriction as well as fasting in rodents for cancer prevention, not as many in adults, but I think we can learn a lot about the mechanisms at play with calorie restriction and fasting in rodents and what might be going on there. So, some of those things are autophagy, which is something that we talk a lot about on the show, interestingly. There are some studies where these are rodent trials, but they're fasting trials and the rodents don't lose weight, but it seems to be protective against cancer and it might be due to autophagy, which is kind of cool.

There's also something called the differential stress response which is basically that in a stress state normal healthy cells grow stronger typically, it activates protective mechanisms compared to cancerous cells which typically do not do well in a stress state. So, something like fasting or calorie restriction might protect healthy cells while discouraging cancer cells or even causing apoptosis or the killing of cancer cells. There's also the role of glycolysis. Cancer cells often run on sugar and cannot run on fat or ketones, so fasting can have an effect there possibly.

When it comes to actual human studies. There aren't a lot of studies on fasting for treating cancer or long-term studies on fasting and cancer, but there are a myriad of smaller studies finding mechanisms that might be protective against cancer. On top of that, there are quite a few studies actually looking at the effects of fasting paired with chemotherapy and finding that it might make chemotherapy more effective, specifically by reducing DNA damage. And also a lot of studies have found that can make the negative side effects of chemotherapy not as bad, less toxic, more tolerable. At the end of the study, they did make recommendations, which is kind of directly answering Nikki's question. This was something I thought was interesting. They actually put the recommendations after the conclusion. It's literally like the very last thing in the study.

But basically, they were saying that when it comes to being overweight and obese-- so if you're overweight or obese and you're seeking weight loss as a means of primary cancer prevention, that IF is maybe an option for that. Oh, because they do talk all throughout the paper about safety or not. And before that, sorry, I'm kind of jumping around, there are some conflicting studies, especially in rodents with cancer prevention. Like some finding it therapeutic or helpful and then others finding that not to be the case, and then interesting studies with rodents as well and refeeding in that some find benefits with cancer prevention and treatment and some actually find that it might make cancer worse.

A huge major caveat and I'm really glad that this article talked about it and it's something that I think is not talked about enough, which is the massive difference between rodents and humans in fasting specifically in that they just are not the same thing, like 24-hour fast in a rodent-- So, a 24-hour fast in a rodent, which is often what is studied and is proposed as, "Intermittent fasting," that's really not intermittent fasting for a rodent.

So, 24-hour fast in a rodent is likely equal to a five-day fast feed cycle in humans that's because a rat will actually die of starvation after 48 to 60 hours, like, it will die, compared to a human that can go 57 to 73 days of fasting before dying. So, there is a major difference there. The majority, if not maybe all of the studies on rodents and fasting are the equivalent of basically long-extended fasting in humans. That's something to really keep in mind.

And then also something else to keep in mind is that, this is interesting. They talk about how, like in rodent studies, the feeding and the food is often much more controlled than it is in human studies. And that oftentimes with fasting in human studies, humans will just eat their normal meals or there're just more factors involved. It's not usually like lab chow where it's specifically controlled. That's something also to keep in mind. I know I'm skipping all around, but I'm remembering things that I left out. They also talked throughout the article about the fasting-mimicking diet, which is the work of Valter Longo. Kind of going back to what I was just saying about the longer fast research in rodents.

A potential benefit of the fasting-mimicking diet, which is basically where you have this super low calorie, plant-based, low protein, low carb approach for usually, I think, five days in humans, is that it kind of can potentially activate these mechanisms of fasting, but for longer. So, for five days. It might be more similar to what you're getting mechanism-wise with the rodent studies. And a nice thing about the fasting-mimicking diet is it's more controlled and there is quite a bit of research on it with the work of Valter Longo. Going back to-- Oh, which, by the way, we've had Valter Longo on this show. I think we've had him on twice. We've had him on I think once and then I've had him on my show. Have you had him on your show, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, would you like to interview him? I'm just curious.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm curious. But I think I'm not a huge proponent of really long fasting for a variety of reasons, taking my own personal feelings about it out. Obviously, he is one of the big longevity researchers and someone that talks quite a bit about fasting. So, yeah, I think he would definitely be on my wish list for the future for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if he has any new books or anything coming out. I'm just thinking how I might reach out to him and just have him on randomly. But I'm happy to connect you to him if you like. He was really hard to, like, lockdown. I thought he would be-- I know he's been around for a while, but I tried before he had his book a while ago when he wasn't quite as popular, and even then, I couldn't, it was hard. I don't even know how I ended up getting him. I think his book was coming out and his publicist reached out.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's usually when you can get him. It's funny, I just booked Glucose Goddess, who I've been persistently after for six months. She has a new book coming out, which is why she probably has been putting me off and then Dr. Amen. I've been wanting to have both of them on for a while, so I'm excited about the opportunity to connect with them. And you've had Dr. Amen on.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I actually went to his Amen Clinics here in Atlanta.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, cool. One of my girlfriends works at his DC clinic.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice. Yeah, they were super nice to let me do a-- I think it was like half of a scan though, [laughs] because you're supposed to go in twice and I went in once and I think they test one thing one time and one thing the other. Yeah, that was a nice experience. It was really cool because he actually looked at my scan in real time during the interview. So, I was like, "I'm getting my scan reviewed by Dr. Amen himself," which was very cool. That'll be awesome. I love him.

So, okay. Coming to Valter Longo, what are we talking about? Yeah, so Valter Longo obviously has the fasting-mimicking diet to go back to the conclusion of the study and Nikki's question. I felt like it was a very cautious interpretation of the literature, which I understand. Basically, they say that if you're overweight or obese and you're seeking weight loss and you're looking for cancer prevention, then IF may be an option. Interestingly, they don't talk about weight loss if you're normal weight, losing weight and if you should use fasting for cancer prevention. I think that's mostly just coming from, like I said a sense of caution, like not wanting to make medical prescriptions.

They do say, though, that if you are doing IF and not losing weight and/or changing your diet and physical activity that there's not really data indicating that fasting would be protective. But stepping back from that, it's just interesting because they talk all throughout it about all of these mechanisms that are likely activated by fasting that might be protective. I would make the conclusion that if you're doing fasting even if you're not losing weight, that this is just my interpretation, I would see how it could be protective.

And then they do talk about people who actually have cancer and if they should use fasting in that and they basically say that, yes, there are a few trials with people who are getting chemotherapy and those find typically that's safe, feasible and can potentially decrease the toxic effects and tumor growth, but that the data is minimal. And if you are doing fasting while having cancer, they basically just say they would only do it if you're in a clinical trial and that a lot more research is needed.

Stepping back from all of that after reading it, I just walked away thinking that there are clearly a lot of mechanisms that fasting activates that are seemingly protective against cancer. I would feel comfortable saying that just living an intermittent fasting lifestyle is likely protective against cancer as far as how much, I'm trying to remember-- I know Nikki was saying like a 24-hour fast. She was wondering about a 24-hour fast once a week or once a month, and she does at least 13 hours. So, again, it's really hard to know at what point and I feel this also will probably be individual for different people, but at what point in the fast are you activating these different mechanisms? So, more autophagy, insulin going down, IGF-1 going down, metabolic hormones like estrogen and testosterone effects on those. It's hard to know when those are happening at the fast at what time. But I do think implementing intermittent fasting into your lifestyle is likely protective against cancer.

I am intrigued by the fasting-mimicking diet. I personally can't, I've tried it and it made me starving. But I can see how doing that for five days could potentially be pretty therapeutic or like a longer fast, which is also something I haven't done. I think the longest fast I've done has been like 50 hours and I did not enjoy it at all. Yeah, I'm trying to remember, just a last note, there was a book I was reading recently and I might have already said it on this podcast, but they were quoting somebody. I don't want to say the name because I don't want to say who it was, but it was somebody very respected and that person was saying they thought you could reduce your risk of all cancers significantly if you did, I think he said like a four to five-day fast once a year or something. Yeah, so that was a lot. Cynthia, I know you have thoughts as well. What are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do and that was a very extensive response. I have a team member who's a breast cancer thriver and is very open about this. So, I'm not disclosing anything that she hasn't shared publicly. I stumbled upon some research probably a few years ago there's a JAMA oncology article from 2016 talking about objectively looking at women with early stage breast cancer. There were over 2400 women with breast cancer but without diabetes, ages 27 to 70 they were put into a prospective women's healthy eating and living study that ran from 1995 to 2007. It was really just focused on nightly fasting duration. What really came out of this is that prolonging the length of the nightly fasting interval, maybe a simple nonpharmacologic strategy for reducing the risk of breast cancer reoccurrence, as well as improvements in glucoregulation specific to A1c is what they were looking at here and CRP, so C-reactive protein.

It's interesting they speak in here extensively about this model and what it came down to in terms of hours of sleep and ended up being kind of aligned with what Satchin Panda had talked about. Less than 13 hours a night of sleep, which is not a lot, was associated with a 36% higher hazard for breast cancer reoccurrence. From my perspective and I talk very openly about this now, the minimum standard for every single listening grown adult should be 12 to 13 hours of fasting. And that's not even fasting. It's like digestive rest, it's pretty benign.

But understanding that this was a large study that was looking at all-cause mortality and it's interesting that they're not talking about these prolonged periods of fasting and I do see the utility in doing that. I think my concern always falls into the bucket of, if you're lean already, are you losing muscle? And then you really have to think about the net impact on loss of muscle and whether or not that's the upregulation of autophagy is really of benefit.

But we'll link this study up and this is again, less than 13 hours is associated with a statistically significant 36% increased risk of-- It's interesting that it was just 13 hours of fasting. It wasn't this prolonged fast. I think this is highly bio-individual. I think there's ongoing research, but this was just one of many, many resources that I kind of stumbled upon. The individuals on my team, as an example, who are either perimenopausal or menopausal females that are cancer survivors. Just helping them understand that interrelationship of not only insulin sensitivity but also the role of therapeutic fasting or even periods of digestive rest have a lot of net benefits.

Melanie Avalon: Just to comment quickly on that women's study, the review talked about that study as well and what was interesting-- what it said about it talked about that study and then it compared it to another study that also looked at a large cohort of women. I'd have to read the section again, but basically, they said by comparing the results of the two studies and weight loss or not and the effects, the two studies so the one that Cynthia spoke about and then another one because of the weight loss and the adjustments for that and what happened and what didn't happen. It led to the hypothesis that a negative energy balance is a necessary factor for improving breast cancer outcomes. Because I know one of the studies that they looked at, they weren't necessarily making it calorie restricted, but I think it ended up being that.

Yeah, by comparing the two, but basically that the negative energy balance might be an important key there. And one of the things about fasting nicely is that it can often create unintentional calorie restriction without people even meaning to. So, that was something to point out. I'm also glad that you pointed out. I do find that really interesting about the 13 hours, especially because Nikki mentioned Dr. Panda talking about 13 hours and then that is often what is prescribed and you said this basically, but I do wonder how many of the benefits do actually-- it surprises me basically that we are seeing the effects with that short of a fast.

Cynthia Thurlow: I guess what I find encouraging is for the people who are out there who are not fasting on a regular basis, it's almost like a gateway, meaning it's low enough in terms of hours spent not eating that I think most people could do that and do it fairly easily. I presented at Low Carb Denver now almost a week and a half ago and one of the things-- usually I'm talking about fasting, but in the case of this event, I was talking about insulin-sensitive obesity and I was saying like, in terms of interventions that you can do with patients, 12 hours of digestive rest can still confer benefits.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably our competitive nature here in the United States, but people kind of think more is better, more always has to be better. I just remind people, let's just keep it simple, we want things to be sustainable. I think for a lot of people, it's just in their nature, they want to go to extremes like, "Oh, I have to do 24 hours fast to get benefits." Well, there're different types of fasting, but I think for the general population if you just do 12 or 13 hours fasting, we know that there are a lot of health benefits conferred with that. I think just meeting people where they are, like if you're going from a standard American diet and being a couch potato to fasting that's going to be scary, like really scary to change from eating every hour or two to going and eating twice a day, that's a big adjustment.

Melanie Avalon: It surprises me, but it's super amazing that it makes it more approachable for people. Yeah, I'm just thinking about how, like, growing up I used to do intermittent fasting. I've talked about this on the show before, but one day a week on Wednesdays because we would go to the buffet at the country club and so I would not eat all day, so that I could just pig out and two things and one, I thought I was doing something really terrible by not eating, even though natural-- Granted I was in high school, it was still so hard. [laughs] And now to think that I do one meal a day-type approach every single day is just kind of funny to think about. There is something about having that approachable, like something that people feel like they can actually do and getting used to it. It's great to know that there are the benefits there potentially.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

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Now we have a question from Holly. The subject is IF question and comment and Holly says, Hello there. "I saw this book as a recommendation in my fasting group and I've been listening to it at work, and I realize--" I don't know which book she's talking about, but I don't know if it's yours or Gin's, probably not mine. She says, "I learned a lot for someone who has studied food, but in different ways I suppose. I had a couple of questions and comments about a couple of things that stuck out to me. Have you ever read the book? French Kids Eat Everything. I learned some interesting information about different cultural approaches to eating and it was fascinating to me because I'm a cultural geographer and an artisan cheesemaker." That's cool. She says, "Anyways, my question is pertaining to children and being ingrained to eating breakfast. At what age do we let them casually feel ready to eat for the day? or as teenagers, the kids are little, we eat pretty clean as everything is made at home. But what happens when they have to start school and we want to make sure they are nourished until their untimely short lunch period? On another note, I wanted to comment about working out and fasting. I began practicing yoga with my mom when I was about 15 years old. We were watching VHS tapes and before every practice began, there was a warning that you should be in a minimum of a four-hour fasted state before practicing. So, I guess what I'm saying is, yoga taught me to always work out in a fasted state. That's all. I just wanted to share that with you." Best, Holly. I like hearing that about yoga.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Holly, I have actually not read that book French Kids Eat Everything, but I am familiar with the premise. I have teenagers and what we have to do is instill good habits in our children. By the time, they were late elementary school age, middle school age, they were making their own lunches, they could make their own breakfast, they could put together an impromptu meal during the day if they were home on a weekend. I think that you have to instill good habits. I certainly didn't find that my kids were tempted by the junk that was served in the school cafeteria. Although once a week we would let them get ice cream because everyone got ice cream on a specific day of the week and I just kind of let that go.

But I think by the time they're teenagers, they kind of autoregulate and especially with the pandemic, my teenagers they had to, they had to be able to make their own lunch because with four of us being home, we're all breaking at different times, and being online for an entire year of school was a gigantic joke. And so, my kids would sometimes check out when they were in the middle of class. They would come downstairs and make food. So, my kids know how to make healthy meals, and you have to pick your battles. I pretty much determine what are my non-negotiables and then we work around that.

I'm adamant about no high fructose corn syrup and no seed oils. Both my kids actually eat really healthy. They eat a lot of protein. They're both student athletes. They eat a lot of healthy carbohydrates. I have one kid who's been tracking his macros because he's trying to build muscle and it's actually been impressive to kind of watch him be very diligent about meal timing and how much carbohydrate he's eating, and how much protein he's eating. From that perspective, I wouldn't worry too much. All those good habits that you're instilling in your children now. I found that it was less about school being a minefield and more about birthday parties and things like that, where my kids would come home and just they'd be sick from eating conventional pizza and whatever the other fun foods they were eating at these parties.

Now, in terms of yoga and what I know about yoga as a practice, it is not at all surprising that you're going to do best, especially if you're doing inversions, depending on what type of yoga you're doing. Not at all surprised that they would encourage you to be in a fasted state or at least several hours in between meals so that your body's not focused on digestion and you can actually move with some ease. So, definitely not surprised that yoga has reinforced that behavior. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I knew you would have a great answer for that, having kids. No, I agree with everything you said. I was thinking back to-- I think I told you I interviewed Marion Nestle. Did I tell you that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it was talk about an inspiring interview. So excited about it. Jon Levy connected us and she does a lot with food policy or-- She does a lot writing about food policy and the role of government and in our processed food industry and the dietetics associations and the food pyramids and all the things. She's like, a legend. Time magazine had her on the list of something about people involved-- making the biggest advances in health and medicine, which is crazy. I think she's the oldest guest I've interviewed. How old is Gabor Maté? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think he's in his 70s. But like his voice, he sounds much younger.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he does sound younger. And she sounded younger. She's 86.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, he's definitely younger than that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. She was born in 1936. Yeah. It was so cool hearing about her growing up in college and being a mom and a working woman and trying to navigate the system and everything she dealt with as a woman back then. It's crazy. But in any case, so she has a whole section in her book and she has 15 books, so she has a lot of information, but a lot about the role of cafeteria food and the role of industry and marketing to kids. I don't want to say coercing schools. I think it's quite an issue today.

Just stepping back, I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's so interesting because it's so blatantly obvious. And Gabor Maté talks about this. Like, when things are just normalized as normal, we don't notice how off they are or how wrong they are. Something like these big mega companies that put so much money into health research, and it's not because they care about your health, it's because they want to divert attention away from the problem.

So, like, Coca-Cola or Nestle have these huge focuses on supporting health, but it's usually like focusing on the benefits of exercise. It's all to not make you think about the problems of eating the chocolate and drinking the Coca-Cola. I could go on a tangent about this. To me, that just seems so blatantly obvious, but nobody's really thinking about it. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. And when my kids were younger, I was one of the co-directors for Real Food for Kids. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's an organization that is trying to improve the quality of food, nutrition that's offered to kids in schools. We, at that time, lived in Northern Virginia and had a lot of access to local farms. We had locally sourced grass-fed meat and organic vegetables that the kids were able to incorporate into their lunches. So, yeah, there's a lot that's wrong about the school food that is served to our children definitely.

Melanie Avalon: That's super cool. I feel like that was all over the place, but feel like we answered her question pretty well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to do one last quick fun question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: Here's just a fun non-fasting-related question to end on from Danielle. This is from our AMAs back in the day. She wants to know, do you have a particular teacher, speaking of schools, that influenced or inspired you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm. Well, I had a high school AP English teacher who I have jokingly/not jokingly admitted to, was the only teacher that really prepared me for college, the rigor, Dr. Barbara Godbold. She was very serious. She was probably 6.2". She was very imposing and she made us work our butts off for her class. Just the pace of the class is really what I believe set me up for what college pace was going to be like. She was super strict. Like, this is back when she wouldn't allow us to wear shorts in our class unless they came to our knees and back in the 80s no one was wearing shorts that long.

So, we would pull our shorts down past our butt and wear these oversized T-shirts so that we could stay in class and not get kicked out. She was intense, but I think many years later, I actually wrote her a letter and thanked her. But at the time, she was formidable, like, 6'2" tall, imposing. She was really, really smart and really taught me a lot. But at the time, I remember thinking she was an impediment to my social life. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: So, two immediately come to mind. One was also, I skipped my last year of high school, but if I had stayed he was the AP English teacher, but before that, he was-- so when I was, like, a sophomore. Actually, wait, you know what? That's not true. I think he was the sophomore and Junior Honors English teacher and then there was a different AP English teacher, coach Carruth, Patrick Carruth. He changed my life. He was so amazing, and he was one of the ones where like we were terrified, like, the first few weeks of him, like, terrified because he was so intimidating and so intelligent, and he would just ask us these questions. It was very Greek, like Socrates and Plato sitting around asking questions. He would ask us these metaphysical questions and we would just stare at him and be scared.

But by the end, halfway through the year and then throughout the next year, he became the most amazing thing. He actually left and went to become headmaster of another school, moved states. We had a going away party for him that we did Great Gatsby themed at my house. So, yeah, he had a huge impact on my life. In college at USC, actually, the top pay professor at USC is Drew Casper. He's in film school, and he is a legend, and he also is terrifying. Like, he's terrifying and he's crazy. He screams and yells and is very passionate and energetic, and he teaches a lot of film courses at the film school. You can invite him to lunch if you want and have lunch with him and do kind of, like, office hours, but at lunch. I did that as a freshman because I was like, I'm going to do this. He was just so funny and so wonderful and I need to reach out to him now.

I would always bring like-- in college, I was kind of crazy. I was very girly and I would wear all pink and I would bring my stuffed animal of Thumper to class, and he would always get Thumper from me and teach with Thumper on his podium. He would have Christmas parties at his house every year and he would invite me to his Christmas parties, [laughs] the most amazing thing. I'm going to reach out to him. I should see if he would want to do an interview on my show, which would not be biohacking related at all, but I'm going to do that right after this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: It's really nice how people can change your lives. That's actually because we had an AMA question also about something that you wish you had done or done differently or learned in life. One of the things I do wish I had done more was in college, I wish I had gone to more office hours, like with the different professors just in general or taken other classes, but I guess there wasn't really time. But I feel like in college there's just so much opportunity for so much free stuff if you take advantage of it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting. I was part of a very small school within a university and so the dean knew us all by name, so you couldn't hide. There was no hiding. And the professors were pretty intense. And more often than not, the School of Nursing had the same professors as the School of Medicine, so it's just intense. I remember thinking-- I would just go home and want to just unplug my brain [laughs] just between clinicals and everything else. But I agree with you, I think most of us probably lack the maturity in our late teens early 20s to take full advantage of all the opportunities to learn. Yeah. So, like I said, if I could go back, I would do more, but it's like, I don't know that I really could have.

Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode311. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. So, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, just keep the great questions coming.

Melanie Avalon: Indeed. I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 26

Episode 310: Inositol, Improved Sleep, Cell Metabolism, DNA Repair, Brain Health, Electrolyte Balance, Glucose Control, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Get on the email list to stay up to date with all the special offers and news about Melanie's new supplements at Avalonx.Us/emaillist, and use the code melanieavalon for 10% on any order at Avalonx.Us and MDlogichealth.com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

3:45 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

8:10 - what is inositol?

11:25 - sugar alcohol

13:05 - does it break a fast?

18:05 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

20:50 - the importance of sleep

23:00 - DNA repair and cell metabolism; Nerve Health

29:20 - choline

31:45 - Brain health, Dopamine, Serotonin

35:00 - insulin resistance in the brain

38:30 - exogenous sources of inositol

40:45 - magnesium and electrolyte balance

44:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

47:15 - why this supplement? why now?

52:40 - L-Theonine and anxiety

53:20 - Metabolic Health

55:00 - MD Logic

Get 25% off during the Presale 03/11-03-19 or 15% off between 03/20-03/31 at cynthiathurlow.com/insolitol!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes for free. Yes, completely free. The more I do research, the more health books I read, the more people I interview something keeps coming up again and again and that is the importance of electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body. This includes the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you don't have your electrolytes in line, best case scenario, you're not going to perform at your best. Worst case scenario, you're going to feel pretty awful. When your electrolytes are out of balance, you can experience things like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and many other unpleasant symptoms. How do we lose electrolytes? Well, when you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. Athletes can lose up to 7 grams per day. Also, when people go on keto diets, that also often results in depleted electrolytes, and may be responsible for something called the, "keto flu."

Also, if you're not feeling well while fasting, that could be a problem with electrolytes. But here's the other problem on top of the electrolyte problem. Most of the electrolyte mixes on the market are nothing I would personally want to put in my body. Thankfully, I found LMNT. LMNT has none of the junk, no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS. It contains a science-packed electrolyte ratio of 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, 60 mg of magnesium. LMNT is used by everyone from NBA, NFL, and NHL players to Olympic athletes to Navy SEALS to exercise enthusiasts to everyday moms and dads to people like me, and potentially you. The experience I've had of being electrolyte depleted and then having an LMNT packet was like the feeling of coming alive. Like, "Oh, the lights just turned on." It truly is incredible.

Friends, I work with a lot of brands. LMNT is one of the brands where people randomly just tell me all the time how obsessed they are. LMNT offers no questions asked refunds, so you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back, no questions asked. You have nothing to lose. Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single-serving packets free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash ifpodcast. Stay salty.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Today I am joined by my dear friend Scott Emmens. Scott is the CEO and founder of MD Logic Health and today we are going to discuss my latest supplement Myo-inositol. Scott, I'm really excited to have this conversation today about Inositol.

Scott Emmens: I am too, Cynthia. I have to say, this molecule, although I've known about it for quite some time. As I did the research for this, really opened my eyes up to it. So, I'm thrilled to have it. My first question for you is when you decided to make your next supplement, Inositol, what was it that made you choose Inositol? For the audience, what is Inositol?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's important to be fully transparent and share with everyone that sleep over the last eight to ten years has been elusive in many instances. And so, I'm always looking for ways to improve my quality of sleep to ensure that I am getting restful sleep. I mean, now I track my metrics on my Oura Ring. But about a year and a half ago, I was already aware of Myo-inositol, which is a specific type of Inositol, which we'll talk about in a second, and I decided to just guinea pig. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take this before bed. I'm going to see what net impact it has on my sleep." This is the experimentation of the N of 1, the power of how important that is, and what I found is when I woke up in the morning, I didn't just feel more rested. My sleep metrics absolutely recorded deeper and longer deep sleep. For anyone that is familiarized with deep and REM sleep, they both have different purposes. One is really focused on brain health, the other one is really focused on bodily health. But as we are getting older, it sometimes can be more challenging to get high-quality deep and REM sleep. Over the course of about six months, I was able to adjust dosages, timing. I started including it in a lot of my treatment protocols, with my own patients and clients. Happily, the N of 1 became N of 20 or 30. From there I started talking more about it.

If we're talking specifically about this particular form of Inositol, Myo-inositol is a type of sugar alcohol. It's actually the most abundant Inositol in the body making up 95% of free Inositol. It's found within cell membranes. It's sometimes referred to as a vitamin although that's really a misnomer, vitamin B8. It's not a true vitamin because our bodies can actually make Myo-inositol and we can sometimes get it from foods in our diets, whether it's fruits and nuts and grains and beans. But we'll discuss later why some people may not be able to extract a lot of inositol from their foods.

We know that it acts as a signaling agent. It's not just about brain health. We know it can actually help with blood sugar, which for most of our listeners, talking about metabolic health is obviously a huge focus of my work. And then, interestingly enough, it's also a nootropic agent. It helps the brain with cell signaling. To me, the more I learned about it was not just a supplement for women with PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, although the research is really solid in that area. But it's a supplement that I've seen really compelling clinical results from patients not just with improvement in blood sugar, but also improvement in cognition and sleep quality. That's really the basis of the supplements that we're working on together, is to make sure that they are focused in these areas, which are the areas I think most of our listeners are concerned about as well.

Scott Emmens: That alone is quite a list of things that [Cynthia laughs] this particular supplement can address. But there are more, which is interesting. To take a step back, you mentioned that it's a sugar alcohol. For our keto friends and people that are wondering, well, how does something that has sugar alcohol in it, how does that support metabolic health? Articulate or walk the audience through how that works.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's not the sugar alcohol that we're thinking of that's contrived in a lab per se, that we're trying to increase the sweetness of a product and make it keto friendly. This is really speaking to the ability to move glucose into the cell so intracellularly and the stimulation of specific mechanisms in the cell, there's this GLUT4 translocation, which is a fancy way of saying "It's going to make it much more readily accepted into the cell." We know if only 7% of the population right now is metabolically flexible, this is something that most if not all of us want to be concerned about.

The other thing that's interesting is it can actually play a role in regulating the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue. This can be impactful if we are fasting and in a fasted state, we are trying to utilize either stored sugar or stored free fatty acids as a fuel source, it's going to help facilitate that by keeping our insulin levels a bit lower. Then, interestingly enough, it can actually promote the conversion from glucose to glycogen. Glycogen is stored sugar and so we store glycogen in our skeletal muscle and our livers, hopefully not too much of it, so that we end up developing something called NAFLD or nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. But there're several different mechanisms that can help with insulin sensitivity that are of particular interest to me. For those of us that are out there that are metabolically flexible, it can be very effective to help with maintaining insulin sensitivity. For those that are actively working on improving their metabolic health can be useful as well.

Scott Emmens: A couple of things there that I just wanted to circle back on. First is when we talk about sugar and the fasting, we're going to get questions on, does this break my fast? So, I guess that's question one. Would Inositol technically break your fast given that it is actually working to pull in the sugar? What are your thoughts there? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting. I think it's always in the context of what is the greatest value. From my perspective, if we are going from maybe let's say our blood sugar is within a healthy range and we take Inositol in a fasted state, I'm more concerned about making sure that you are maintaining this insulin sensitivity than I am about-- the concerns and I know it gets very granular, very nuanced. I know that I would say 50% of the questions that my team and I field on social media on a given day is related to does X break my fast? Typically, I take Inositol in the evening, usually at the tail end of my feeding window. That's when I will take it. But I have plenty of patients as an example that have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome and if you look at the clinical research the recommendation is usually 2 grams twice a day. So, very likely they are taking their Inositol in a fasted state and in a fed state. I think it really comes down to what are your goals.

From my perspective, this is one of those gray areas. I'm completely comfortable with my patients taking this in a fasted state and not worrying about whether or not this is breaking a clean fast. This is very different than someone taking, let's just say, one of the keto sweeteners in something in a fasted state and wondering what's going on. This is actually helping to improve that insulin sensitivity. So, for me, I'm less concerned about it.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that's the perfect response for folks to make it clear that this is an individual need. What are you taking it for specifically? What's the core reason you're taking it? And then you can determine when you're taking it. But I think the benefit of when you take it in a fasted state, given, let's use the PCOS example, might be a fasted state is a perfectly valid and more important reason to take it than worry about whether it's going to have a minor impact on your fast or not. I think it really does come down to individual choices, individual specific goals.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think for a lot of people when they're getting nuanced about does X item beverage supplement break my fast? The bigger question is, are you insulin sensitive? Are you metabolically healthy? If you are, I'm less concerned about what you are. These little tiny little choices that you're making as opposed to someone who may be new to intermittent fasting, maybe new to these kinds of products, maybe has been quite sedentary, has 25, 50 pounds to lose? Then we have to get much more deliberate. These are individuals that likely would benefit from a bit more than opposed to a little bit less. But with that being said, it's always in the context of what are your goals, what are your metabolic health threshold at this point in time and you can make adjustments.

Scott Emmens: I think the key there is if metabolic health is what you're seeking, then that is the key. If you are metabolically flexible and healthy, breaking the fast with minor things here and there are not going to make much of a difference. But what will make it much more, in my opinion you could disagree, is that your metabolic health and overall flexibility is going to be a much more important factor long term than whether you're stuck to your fast precisely or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think this is a good time to just interject that sometimes we get caught up in the little details when in essence we should be flying at 30,000 feet or we're kind of looking down on collectively, what are all the choices we're making throughout the day, throughout the week and what net impact? How is your sleep? How are you managing your stress? Are you lifting weights? Are you eating a nutrient-dense, whole-food diet, which could look a little different for everyone? Are you eating enough protein? Are you satiated? Those things to me as a rule are, they take precedence over one supplement? It's not to ignore the questions that I know will be forthcoming with regard to this. But just keeping your eye on the big picture as opposed to worrying about little bits of minutiae. Sometimes we'll get questions on social media about a particular type of tea or a particular type of coffee, and we'll say. let's look at the ingredient list, let's educate ourselves, what could be contributing to what your concern is about? but I think sometimes people get fixated on one thing and they're not looking at the big picture.

Scott Emmens: Agreed. And sleep is a great example. If you don't get sufficient sleep, you are going to have metabolic insufficiencies or perhaps your blood sugar will spike. And you'll crave sweet food and that's been proven time and time again. If you're sleep deprived, especially over a long period of time, even one day, frankly, but you go less than 6 hours of sleep, you're going to have impacts on your blood sugar that are not going to be positive. So, everything matters. All of those things combined to your point, I think, is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of your metabolic flexibility and health.

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Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it goes without saying that when we're talking about sleep, I always like to mention sleep is foundational to our health. If you're not getting a quality sleep, everything else is secondary to that. Don't overfast or don't fast at all if you can't figure out why you're not sleeping well. There're so many women, in particular, I don't want to pick on women, but I know for myself, the first couple of years I was in perimenopause, my sleep, it was like an art form. I had to figure out the right things I needed to do to get myself to sleep through the night. But to your point, we know even one night of sleep can be detrimental to our metabolic health, can contribute to insulin resistance, will raise cortisol, will cause us to want to eat junk and not broccoli and chicken. Just understanding that if you're not sleeping well, that's the first thing to work on before you even worry about anything else get your sleep dialed in, figure out why you're not sleeping, and then fit all the other pieces into the puzzle.

Scott Emmens: One of the things I like about Inositol is not only that it helps with your deep sleep, but it helps with your entire sleep structure, meaning each phase, you'd mentioned the various phases and it helps with structuring that sleep so that you get a perfect balance. I shouldn't say perfect, but a better balance, an improved balance that was really interesting to me. I guess we could move on into mechanisms of action into the cell.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. When we're talking about how Myo-inositol and I know that's a bit of a mouthful, so maybe for listeners I'm going to just say Inositol. But the product that we are talking about is Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: In the supplement world, if you see Inositol, that is Myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Generally, yes.

Scott Emmens: 99% of the time if it says just Inositol, that's going to be Myo-inositol. The other most common is D-chiro-inositol, and there's reasons that you don't necessarily want to use it, and if you do it has to be in a very precise amount and it's probably best off to start with Myo-inositol, just by itself for a lot of clinical reasons, but Inositol pretty much means Myo-inositol unless it says D-chiro and that's a totally different [unintelligible [00:22:53], which you got to be very careful with.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, so, such a good point. When we're talking about our cells, we know that it plays a role in DNA repair. As we're getting older, we are more likely to be having issues with our mitochondria which are effectively the powerhouses of our cells. DNA repair, it's absolutely essential for that. It helps regulate cell metabolism. Again, these are kind of nerdy little caveats but really important to understand that this supplement in particular is working at the cellular level and not just kind of these extraneous topics. We know it's very important for the component of the cell membrane. Our cell membranes are important for communication between cells and so understanding that as we are getting older, as things are maybe not working as efficiently. This is why I really like the idea of using Inositol in conjunction with fasting whether you're taking this at the tail end of your feeding window or incorporating it throughout your day, understanding that at a very basic level, this can help your cells become more efficient, have more energy, be able to improve communication between cells, which, the older I get, the more I think about things on a bit more detailed level because I realize how humbling is to understand how our bodies work effectively.

Scott Emmens: Truly. I mean our bodies are a miracle if you think about it. How many different things have to go right for your body to work? It's amazing we can get up in the morning sometimes.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: True, very true. [laughs]

Scott Emmens: Component of the cell membrane and the cell membrane is typically like the fatty layer around that and mitochondria have their own cell membrane as well, correct?

Cynthia Thurlow: They do, they do. So, this phospholipid bi-layering and this is why things that we're exposed to our environment, our personal care products, our food, can all impact this in positive or negative ways. Understanding that we are contributing to components that are going to make this protective layer more effective and allow it to be optimized is certainly very exciting.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. We know that mitochondrial health leads to so many other things too including brain health, so, excellent. Now, the number of things that Inositol, Myo-inositol we're speaking about in particular, and we'll just say Inositol to keep it easy [Cynthia laughs] but it's all when we say Inositol, we're saying Myo-inositol. The amount of things that this product has been clinically studied for in the brain and then the amount of new and upcoming research really blew me away.

I had known about Inositol for many years. I've known many people that have taken it, but when I started to get into the research, as you and I were preparing the product and preparing this podcast, I just was really blown away by the amount of influence this could have on your mood, on your cognition, on the speed of your brain, on your sleep architecture. Let's talk about the things in the brain and why do you think it works there and why that's so important, and what are the core key things that are provable that we can stand behind the clinical data on?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, we know Inositol is very effective with brain signaling. Again, as we've already talked about, it's a component of our cellular membranes. Starting with protection of the blood-brain barrier being a previous ER nurse, there are specific substances that can cross the blood-brain barrier and others that cannot. Now that we understand a whole lot more about the gut microbiome and the interrelationship between leaky gut, leaky brain, understanding that Inositol can beneficial in helping to strengthen that blood-brain barrier.

The blood-brain barrier is designed to protect us, but in many instances, due to lifestyle, personal care choices, etc., can weaken this and can allow us to absorb substances into the brain that do not belong. I also think about neuroplasticity, which is this concept where it allows us to create new neural pathways. But it's also particularly beneficial with commonly recognized neurotransmitters like dopamine, acetylcholine, GABA, and serotonin, understanding that it can strengthen and improve these specific neurotransmitter pathways as well as communication between the neurotransmitters.

I think about glutamic acid or glutamate and GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter, and glutamate is this excitatory neurotransmitter and making sure that we're influencing the right neurotransmitter at the right time. You don't want to be stimulated when you're trying to go to bed. You want to have this inhibitory communication with GABA in particular. I also think about assisting and regulating sodium levels. We talk a lot about electrolytes on this podcast and how important they are knowing that Inositol is involved in the regulation of sodium. There's a sodium-potassium pump in the body across these cellular membranes and this in and of itself helps with maintenance of myelin sheaths that protect our neurons. Down to regulating electrolytes, but also protecting the fatty myelin sheath that allows for proper transmission impulses in between different brain cells I found particularly interesting.

Scott Emmens: I would have to agree. I'll start there but there were a lot of things I want to unpack with that one. So, the myelin sheaths to bring it into layman's terms are like the rubber around an electric cord and that rubber around electric cords keeps other electric cords from touching each other and shorting out. I think it was ALD, which was a nerve disease. The movie Lorenzo's Oil, do you remember that movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Scott Emmens: And his son had that disease. I might be getting the acronyms wrong or the verbiage wrong, but it was basically a disease of the myelin sheaths not being properly built. So, your myelin sheaths are so important because if they're not created well in your brain, then your neurons don't-- even if you have the neurons, but the myelin sheaths are brittle or not connected, you can have little shorts, little skips, and your cognition can decline.

That goes for all of your nerves, right? You've got to have really good myelin sheaths, which also goes back to the point on that bilipid layer that protects the cell. That's like a myelin sheath for the cell, different mechanism, but you've got to prevent those short circuits. That's really important for brain health and overall function cognition. So, I found that fascinating. The other thing, just to tap into it, as you had mentioned how it works with choline, etc. There was a study I read that choline in combination with Myo-inositol, is also beneficial.

Now, choline in itself is really good for your brain if you're not getting enough in your diet, so that's something we can talk about down the road. I do take choline every day with Myo-inositol, with my black coffee. By the way, it does sweeten my coffee just the smidge. it's not like sugar, but just a tiny little sweet taste. It's really made my black coffee more pleasurable.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's funny, after I was hospitalized four years ago, I remember I got out of the hospital and I craved red meat and I craved eggs. Eggs are rich in choline and I have eggs every single day, sometimes four or five at a time. I love that you're seeing this improvement in taking choline on a daily basis. The interrelationship with Inositol makes a great deal of sense. I also think about how Inositol can reduce inflammation by actually reducing pro-inflammatory cytokines. These inflammatory substances that we find in the body, some of which are inflammatory in terms of cytokines, others are not. And then also impacts thought processing. This was something that I tried to get really detailed about because I found this particularly interesting as we are getting older, especially women in particular, as we're losing estradiol, testosterone, and progesterone signaling in the brain that can impact how-- do we have brain fog, are we struggling with trying to find the words, understanding that thought processing as we're getting older can sometimes be mitigated by hormonal fluctuations? But understanding that there are things that we can include into our diet or supplement regimen that can help improve this. It's interesting that this one research article that I looked at, it was talking about how when serotonin and dopamine levels are not optimized, so these are two neurotransmitters. As these are not optimized, it can actually make anxiety and depression worse. This alone can impact cognition, memory and can contribute to some of the age-related decline that we see, but how the introduction of some of these lifestyle measures can make a huge net impact. Now I know for myself personally, I always say that I can accept a lot of things that are changing in my body as I'm getting older, but the brain piece I'm not willing to accept. So, I'm always trying to optimize and make sure I stay sharp. I have teenagers I have to stay on top of and running a business and just being a good human. And I'm curious for you, when you were doing your own research, what did you see that was specific to the neurotransmitter processing in the brain? Anything that you could add to that particular research that I had mentioned?

Scott Emmens: What I saw was similar to what you saw that it does enhance the brain's ability to maintain both the amount of dopamine and serotonin. But also, this part that you had mentioned, the neural pathways helping to support the growth of neural pathways. Well, if you can grow neural pathways faster when you're learning something new, to me that is a massive advantage because as we age, growing new neural pathways becomes pretty challenging. If you can do anything to help support that and I think that's why I like to take the choline with it along with other things that I think support that ability to grow neural pathways. I take a lot of things that have BDNF in them such as Lion's Mane, ginkgo biloba. They don't have BDNF in them. They help the body support its own BDNF.

Exercise, particularly aerobic exercise helps with BDNF, which is brain-derived neurotropic factor. Basically, that's your fertilizer for your brain to grow new neurons. That to me was a big one. But also, the speed with which and the balance which with the dopamine, serotonin and I think might have mentioned GABA in there as well. That sort of perfect balance, again, I use the word perfect. That improved balance to me was really the way that I was like, this is something I really feel like is going to be important for my long-term brain health. Because just like you, I can take-- I'm 52, my body's not going to bench press 300 pounds anymore. I'm okay with that. But I don't want my brain to decline to the point where I'm just two steps behind or feeling like I'm not 100%. I want my brain to get as healthy as it possibly can be because by the time I'm 80, right, whatever my baseline is now, it's not going to get better at 80. But If I can maintain it or make it a little better over the next couple of years and then maintain that for a while, I'm going to have a little bit more capacity as I age. To me, I think of all the things I worry about from a longevity health standpoint, it is 100% brain.

Cynthia Thurlow: One of the other really important/interesting distinctions about brain health as we are getting older is the potentiality of loss of insulin sensitivity and poor metabolic health. That understanding that at the basis of insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia is an upregulation and inflammation and oxidative stress which we know goes on to actually damage our neurons and our brains. Unfortunately, I think for many people, they don't understand the interrelationship that our brains in the latter stages of our lives 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond are made in our 40s and 50s. So, understanding how critically important metabolic health is not just to our bodies but also to our brains is so, so important.

Understanding that also maintaining insulin sensitivity can help with buffering these hormonal changes that are happening in women's brains and frankly men's brains as well. The number one reason why men are dealing with lowered testosterone levels is this loss of insulin sensitivity and also exposure to estrogen-mimicking chemicals as well as women as they're transitioning from perimenopause into menopause, they're losing estradiol signaling, progesterone signaling, testosterone signaling in the brain that can actually exacerbate underlying insulin resistance.

Scott Emmens: That's a serious problem. I have heard the type 3 diabetes analogy fairly often, actually came out of the diabetes world and at that point they were starting to use things like metformin and TZDs, which are insulin sensitizers for clinical trials and Alzheimer's. Now, I don't think those drugs were the right kind of drugs because they don't cross the blood-brain barrier. So, that's probably something to think about. But speaking of crossing the blood-brain barrier and these issues with keeping the cell structure intact, chemicals in our diet can actually make your blood-brain barrier more permeable and not in a good way. You want to make sure that you've got this, your blood-brain barrier, you're doing everything you can do to protect it because if it breaks down and negative chemicals get into the brain, you're going to have more death of neurons and keep your body in this constant state of inflammation that you just spoke about. That's another thing that in our diets there're a lot of different chemicals and additives and food additives that you don't even necessarily know are letting things penetrate your blood-brain barrier whether you're aware of that or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just even thinking, I did a great podcast with Jeffrey Smith, who's this incredible advocate that's doing amazing work educating people about the dangers of certain types of pesticides and herbicides like glyphosate. And understanding that glyphosate creates small intestine hyperpermeability aka leaky gut. Guess what? When you get a leaky gut, you got a leaky brain. Understanding that these things aren't entirely benign and just being conscientious, not feeling like you have to be fearful about your environment but just being informed, and understanding that things like grains, where you can get some exogenous sources of Inositol can also be challenging for the body to break down. I'm sure we'll probably talk about this, the role of phytic acid and exposure to these pesticides and herbicides that are designed to make, "Healthier crops," can actually lead to mineral issues, not being able to absorb as much minerals from the foods that we think we are, but also deal with some of the health implications of exposure to said herbicides and pesticides.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, we definitely have to talk about the phytic acid and natural exogenous sources of Inositol. Now, again, we had mentioned that the kidney and the liver make about 2 grams in the kidney and about a gram in liver. One of the studies I read, despite where it's made, the most concentration of Inositol is in your brain. Obviously, there's something that your brain needs with this natural body-producing compound that's critically important. Maybe it is time to get into the natural sources and why there are some issues there or did we skip something along the way?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting, we touched on the fact that you can get some exogenous, which means outside the body, sources from nuts and grains and beans and fruit. What's interesting, though, is that in particular to grains, phytic acid is a component of a cell wall of plant-based food that can actually impair mineral absorption in the body. You may ingest said food, but your body may not be able to fully optimize. The statistic I read last night was that the average diet allows for 720 milligrams a day found in grains and seeds, but can be as low as 250 milligrams or as high as 1600 milligrams depending on the foods consumed.

It's interesting because as I was looking at different philosophies of research, organ meats can be a great source. I know that organ meats for many people are either things they don't like the taste of, the flavor profile, the texture, trying to get these into the diet. But I thought it would be interesting to kind of identify some of the things that can reduce our ability to be able to extract Inositol from food. Number one was insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia. That was number one and again only 7% of the population actually is metabolically flexible, so that's important.

Low salt intake, we unfortunately have conditioned an entire generation of clinicians and humans that you want to have a low-sodium diet. It's really that you want a less processed diet. Most of the salt that people are consuming is iodized salt, which is a low-quality type of salt. It's not per se that we shouldn't have salts in our diet because I'll be the first person to say we need high-quality salt, but it's the quality of salt that we're consuming. Antibiotic use, I mean, how many people listening have been on multiple rounds of antibiotics? I certainly have had the benefits of needing to take antibiotics, but then understanding that that's largely impacted my entire body diffusely. Then, interestingly enough, caffeine intake, so especially coffee can reduce your endogenous stores of Myo-inositol which I thought was really interesting.

Scott Emmens: You're bumming me out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly and low magnesium. I'm always talking about magnesium anyway, but magnesium is critically important for the biosynthesis of Myo-inositol. Just get another reason why we need more magnesium replacement in our lives. You just can't get enough from eating organic foods or using a whiff of magnesium every day. I could go off on a whole magnesium tangent and my listeners know this, but those are just some of the ways that our modern-day lifestyles can impact our ability to create endogenous Myo-inositol and actually make it harder for us to keep our levels optimized in the body.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. I read the same thing and it was kind of shocking to me because, again, I've done a lot of research on magnesium. When I read that magnesium was essential, "What is magnesium not essential to?" It seems to be essential to just about everything in the body. To your point, magnesium is drawn out of you for so many different reasons. Sodium, same thing, sodium is drawn out of you. I hear in the summer, you're going to need a lot of sodium. Because you're going to sweat out a lot of sodium. If you're a completely sedentary person or you don't-- hot sports or saunas are not your thing, or you're not a big sweater. maybe you only need 2000 milligrams a day. If you're an athlete especially a competitive athlete, you're going to need probably a lot more than 2000 milligrams of, to your point, quality sodium not processed sodium that's put into your processed pizza or from the old-fashioned little blue bottle there. It's iodized salt. You want a good quality, high mineral, high-quality mixture salt. And there're lots available. Yes, those are two critically important things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting, there're over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body that utilize magnesium. This is just one of many examples of why low magnesium is going to impact all of these other processes. I'm the first person to say that when I was working in clinical cardiology, we would recommend transdermal. So, skin-absorbed magnesium and oral magnesium to be able to optimize levels. Just understanding that most magnesiums are not going to get you to where you need to be. More often than not, most people need two different ways of getting the magnesium in through the skin and then also orally.

Scott Emmens: I'm pretty tolerant of magnesium. I take a number of different kinds of magnesiums, different forms. One form I'm actually looking into a little bit more is magnesium chloride because it's already converted into an electrolyte. Whereas the other magnesium your body has to take it and convert it into magnesium chloride essentially to make it an "Electrolyte." I'm really looking at that as maybe the next thing I add to my diet. But magnesium in general, I take a lot of in a lot of different forms. I'll mix them up, but I want to get one foundational magnesium, which I take on a regular basis. I usually add a threonate or a gluconate or bisglycinate and I'm looking into actually two new kinds to potentially launch in the next few months. You can't get enough and there're all different forms.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because listeners will ask. I use Ancient Minerals. They have a spray that you can use, a spray oil, and also a lotion very efficacious. That's what we used in electrophysiology, which is a subsect of cardiology. Typically, you spray into two cupped hands, you rub on your trunk and your arms and legs, leave on for 20 minutes and shower off, very cost effective. You can get it on the Ancient Minerals website or even probably Amazon.

The other magnesium that I think is most efficacious for me personally is magnesium L-threonate. I take that in powdered formulation usually before bed. That is one of the very few formulations that will cross the blood-brain barrier. For me, it's all about relaxation, sleep support and those are probably the two I use the most of. I would say if anyone listening has magnesium oxide in their medicine cabinet, in their supplement drawer, you only absorb about 11%, it is worth throwing in the garbage. It is so poorly absorbed by the body. That was what we used to use in the hospital a lot until I knew better. I always like to share that as a pearl. If you have it, toss it, you don't get much out of it, and you're essentially creating expensive urine.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. The reason that-- So, almost every magnesium you see at Walgreens or your Rite Aid or your general pharmacy, 95% of those are going to be magnesium oxide.

Cynthia Thurlow: Which is crap.

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Cynthia Thurlow: Inevitably, there'll be lots of questions about why this supplement at this time. I think I've been very transparent that my focus for our collaborative work together is metabolic health, brain health, and certainly sleep support  because that's such a pain point for so many. I thought we could talk about a little bit of the indications for why this is the supplement that we chose to do now and then talk about dosing, and then talk about why MD Logic's standards are so high and how that has impacted the decision to kind of collaborate together. Just from a high-level perspective, 40% to 60% of perimenopausal and menopausal women have differing issues surrounding insomnia. Those are not my statistics, that's just statistics that I read. Overall, 10% to 30% of the overall population, both men and women, some as high as 50% to 60% by the second study I looked at. We know it's more commonly seen in women and I think a large amount of that is the fluctuations in progesterone, which oftentimes helps us fall asleep, and changes in estradiol, predominant form of estrogen as we're transitioning out of our cycling years into perimenopause helps us stay asleep.

There was an article, meta-analysis in Frontiers in Psychiatry that talked about in observational studies, there's a higher prevalence in women than men. I don't think we needed a study to confirm that just from talking to patients over the years. Certainly, a greater issue for women than men. And then understanding that Inositol helps us fall asleep and then if we wake up in the middle of the night, will allow us to fall asleep more easily. Even Huberman Lab talks about how Myo-inositol is part of his sleep stack. He uses it several times a week, just makes it part of his sleep stack. I love my own sleep stack, but this is an absolutely integral part of it. We know that Myo-inositol impacts serotonin levels which induces a sense of peace and calm, certainly the way that you want to be thinking as you're kind of heading off to bed, and then it also has direct communication with GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter that we find in the brain and can help support healthy function of the receptors there. Again, inhibitory neurotransmitter that we are positively impacting by the utilization and supplementation of Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, the number of things that it does for sleep is really remarkable as we talked about the faster onset of sleep, the higher quality of sleep, the sleep architecture, the ability to fall asleep if you wake up. And that's my problem. I can fall asleep, but I will inevitably wake up at 1 in the morning, thoughts racing, and 2 hours later I'm still looking at a podcast or something and I can't fall asleep. Now, I try not to take my phone to bed, but when I wake up at 1 in the morning, I'm like I need something to kind of soothe my brain back to sleep, so that's great. I have a sleep stack too, which now includes Myo-inositol and I also do my melatonin with that as well as I'm just recently experimenting with L-theanine, which I'm really liking. I haven't quite dialed in the right dosage yet or like timing, but I really like L-theanine both during the day as a cognitive enhancer with my coffee. It keeps me from getting jittery and kind of balance that caffeine out. I take one of our products along with it, which is a choline, Alpha GPC, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine blend. I take that along with L-theanine in the morning and then I take the L-theanine, the Inositol, and the melatonin at night. With that combo, I've been sleeping really well.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. It's interesting because I have found that if I take the Inositol every night it works better than just using it as needed. I do think there's some degree of cumulative effect. The therapeutic dose that I have found is 1 gram in the evening is very effective. If you look at research on polycystic ovarian syndrome or PCOS, you can definitely see therapeutic benefit from 2 grams twice a day. But obviously, if you're working with someone on your PCOS, an endocrinologist, a GYN, an integrative trained healthcare practitioner, they may have you on other items as well. So, definitely worth discussing with them. It's interesting, there was one research article that talked about dosing in menopause is 3 grams a night. I haven't experimented with that. But having said that, I think the nice thing is you can adjust. If I'm having a particularly stressful day, I may take 2 grams at night as opposed to 1 gram. I think a nice starting point is 1 gram. I do find that most of my patients do really well at that dose.

Scott Emmens: I've been doing about 3 grams and that's been the perfect amount.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sweet spot.

Scott Emmens: I take 1 gram in the day, 2 grams before bed. That seems to be my sweet spot, 4 grams seems a bit much, so I've kind of been balancing around 2 to 3 grams. One of the other things I wonder if it helps with sleep is and maybe this is because of the GABA, but it has been shown to reduce cravings for binge eating disorder. It's been shown to help in panic disorders. It's been shown to help with certain anxieties and OCDs. I just wonder if all of these also are contributing to the overall ability to sleep. If you have less anxiety, you're going to sleep better, or is that you're getting sleep, thus your anxiety is lower. Chicken and egg sort of thing. It just seems to be working across the spectrum of things that disrupt sleep.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think it's important just to understand that, as you mentioned the chicken or the egg, looking at it as what is contributing to the changes in sleep, for a lot of people, they're anxious by nature. It's hard to shut their brain off. Things like L-theanine as you mentioned and alluded to is a really nice amino acid. It's interesting we have components of L-theanine in green tea. We'd have to drink quite a bit to get enough L-theanine on board. That calming effect that you get from L-theanine that can be a nice adjunct to other types of sleep support. It would be remiss if we didn't at least touch quickly on metabolic health, I know we've talked a bit about it. We know only 7% of adults in the United States are metabolically healthy and fewer than one in 15 have optimal metabolic health. That means that you're not being treated for high blood pressure or elevated triglycerides. You don't have a waist circumference greater than 45 inches if you're a male, greater than 35 inches if you're a female. Means your fasting blood sugar is optimized, I like to say between 75 and 90, and you have appropriate levels of HDL. For women greater than 55, men greater than 45. Technically, the metabolic syndrome diagnosis is made when you have 3/5 of those.

We know that Myo-inositol can be helpful for insulin sensitizing. Then there's solid randomized controlled trials on this. We're not just sharing cherry-picking research. We're really looking at the research. It can effectively help to promote weight loss in conjunction with that. What I liked was there was one study that was talking about it can be used in conjunction with other medications like Glucophage, magnesium, progesterone in particular. You can utilize these concurrently. Again, if you're on any of these medications, talk to your prescribing provider. We're not providing medical advice. We're just providing guidance in terms of what the research is showing and it was interesting there was one article that talked about how utilizing Inositol with whey protein will help for better absorption. If you're not dairy intolerant like I am for a lot of other people, you could probably throw it in with a shake or make a protein pudding and know that you'll get better absorption from the whey utilization.

Scott Emmens: I did not read about that. But it's Interesting but now that I know coffee decreases Myo-inositol, I'm going to put 2 grams in my coffee in the morning.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: I think something that I think would be super helpful is to explain to listeners. We have this partnership together that we are co-collaborating on supplements. What is it about MD Logic that distinguishes your company from other companies on the market?

Scott Emmens: I think there're a couple of things. The first is what we've tried to do is a partner with people like yourself that have extremely high standards of what they are looking for. We don't do white label, which is private labeling, a product that you already make and then just putting someone else's name on it. That's not what we're about. We're about clinicians or people that are in the know that understand what they want in their supplement, what their customers want. That's the place we first start is who are the people we want to work with because we want to make sure that they are as committed to the quality as we are, that they're trying to do the best possible thing for their clients and patients because otherwise it would reflect negatively on us. So, that's where we start. It starts with the quality of who the client is that wants to create a supplement with us and then It goes through what we consider the gold standard of GMP.

Now, GMP has its baseline standards and many companies are GMP certified, but that doesn't mean they are GMP compliant. Meaning you can have a GMP facility that's had multiple violations over three to five years. I'm not suggesting that every company has to have a zero, never has had a GMP violation because they'll give you a violation for small things, potentially. When I say they that's the FDA. So, what we do is we start the process by looking at the ingredient itself, making sure that the ingredient itself, before it even comes onto the factory floor. Now, this is not necessarily what most companies do because you only legally have to test it at the end of the process. But we don't even want to bring the product into the door, into the quarantine facility where we make the products because if it's infected with mold or toxins, it could spill over to other things, so every product is tested for toxins, mold, heavy metals, purity, strength, and identity before it even gets into the facility.

Then what we do is we take that product and we create it in the perfect GMP process, which is, you have to make sure that the product is stored at a certain temperature. You have to make sure that you use certain specification sheets so even the documentation to make the product is important. We make sure that if we make what's called a variation from time to time or standard operating procedure that every one of those is filled out, that each process is followed, that the person in charge of the facility is following that SOP to the letter of the law, meaning if they say it has to be 6 inches above the ground, the product has to be stored 6 inches above the ground. All of our products are then stored and climate controlled. Then we send them out for testing. Some products we send out for third-party testing, but we do two in-house tests, which is, again we do all of those same things again at the end of the product. So, let's say we're making a combination product and we use seven ingredients. Well, after it goes through the whole process, you want to make sure of a couple of things. One, is it still as pure and clean as the day it arrived? And all of the strengths, purity and potency, and identity of those products what we said is in there.

So, if we said there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C, there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C. If we said there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, and then is it pure? Does it still have the same levels of heavy metal as when it came into the factory? Or did it get exposed to something? So, it gets tested before it comes in. We follow all of those other regulations because if you leave something on the floor, it could get wet and it gets moldy. So, what came in as clean is now on your floor. It gets moist because it's on the concrete slab, and then it might create mold. We do the testing at the very beginning, all four of the GMP plus heavy metals.

For certain products, we'll send out for additional testing, such as enzyme products. We'll test out to make sure that the SPUs of an enzyme are active that there's what we say, how many-- 125,000 for our serrapeptase for example. We send that out for third-party testing to make sure that's how many active enzymes are in each of those capsules. It's not just an internal test, it's also external. Now, some folks say, "Oh, we third party test, but that also means that they third party, they're paying another client and another entity that they don't know this facility and they don't know if they're doing their job correctly. It sounds great to do third-party testing, but unless you know that third party really well and you know they're following all GMP, you really want to have your own ownership and oversight to make sure that the lab assistants are doing that job properly.

So, we do both an internal and [unintelligible [00:59:35] we need to we'll send things out for third party, on occasion we'll send things out if we're like questioning the potential toxins of something. We'll send it out for additional screening for pesticides, for example. We go through a very rigorous process. At then at the end, we also test it for shelf stability. Every single step along the way before it gets into the consumer's hand, it's been a chain of custody tested across the board for strength, compliance, identity, toxins, heavy mold, etc. At the beginning, at the end and it's climate stored from that process from the beginning to the end.

The only part of that process we can't control is if it's in a UPS truck in California. There might be a couple of hours, but we test things to make sure that they can withstand that kind of temperature for a couple of hours. Whereas when you go to a mega warehouse, let's just say box stores and shipping stores, for example, you have no idea how long it's been sitting there. You have no idea if GMP has been filed through that process. We feel really good about the products we send out because the ingredients are what we say, the purity is what we say, the heavy metals are what we say. We pass all of those tests on the front and the backend. That's what we feel really good about.

And then we work really hard to make sure that the product we're delivering has the least amount of toxic things in it and is the best for the environment it can possibly be, and we're working more and more towards that with each new product. Now, we're a young company, so we inherited some of the products we have, but each time we [unintelligible [01:01:11] a product, we're taking out the steroids and the palmitates, making it in a glass bottle to reduce phthalates in the world and plastics in general. You and I could talk about plastics forever. We're really taking extraordinary efforts to make sure that the product that shows up at your door is the best possible quality you can get.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that. I talk all the time about how most pharmaceutical grade companies don't third-party source to Amazon. I think a lot of individuals are surprised to know that buying pharmaceutical grade supplements is really the way to go if you're going to choose to take a supplement, making sure that you're purchasing from a company that has such a rigorous set of standards for evaluation, transportation, and preservation of their products. Now, for listeners that are still listening and tuning in, want to be fully transparent and share that the presale for Myo-inositol or Inositol starts on March 11th through the 19th. You can get 25% off and you can go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/inositol. That's I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful. From March 20th to the 31st, you can get 15% off. So, obviously, you want to jump on board when it goes on sale and then understanding that you don't need a code for the presale that will get you directly to the discounted price. Again. www. cynthiathurlow.com/inositol I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful but it's fully worth it. Scott, always a pleasure to connect with you. Let my listeners how to connect with you outside of the podcast, how to reach you on social media or your website.

Scott Emmens: The best place to reach me is @longevityprotocol on Instagram or #collagenguru on TikTok if that's your thing. But primarily I don't do Facebook, so you won't find me there. If you would like to get a hold of me directly to talk to me specifically about anything, you can reach out to, let me be specific, mdlogichealth.com is our website. Reach out to us there, just say, "Hey, I'd like to speak to Scott Emmens" and our assistant will get you in touch with me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Great. Thanks so much again, Scott. It's always a pleasure connecting with you.

Scott Emmens: Cynthia, pleasure as always. Thank you so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks again for a wonderful podcast, Scott. Listeners can look for the show notes @ifpodcast.com/episode310 and submit questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or @ifpodcast.com. You can connect with us on social media. I am @cynthia_thurlow_ on Instagram or through my website, www.cynthiathurlow.com. And Scott may be reached at mdlogicwellness.com.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 05

Episode 307: Mercury In Fish, Early Eating, Circadian Rhythm, Red Light Therapy, Microplastics, Fasting For Healing, Autophagy, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 307 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get free Chicken Nuggets for a Year and $20 off!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Athletic Greens: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Chicken Nuggets For A Year And $20 Off!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

SAFECATCH: Go to www.safecatch.com To Get 20% Off With Code MELANIEAVAON Through The End Of March!

20:25 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

22:30 - Listener Q&A: chris - Circadian rhythm

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

32:10 - Listener Q&A: Amy - AMA Question

38:40 - Listener Q&A: Chrissy - IF and Surgical Recovery

45:00 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast!

46:30 - Listener Q&A: Ann - Autophagy question

The effect of fasting or calorie restriction on autophagy induction: A review of the literature

Training state and skeletal muscle autophagy in response to 36 h of fasting

Physiological responses to acute fasting: implications for intermittent fasting programs

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 307 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor- patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free organic free-range, gluten-free chicken nuggets for a year and $20 off. That's right. Free organic free-range, gluten-free chicken nuggets for a year plus $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. 

Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage-breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable and better for you and the planet all at home.

ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken nuggets for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. That's a 22-ounce bag of gluten-free chicken nuggets in every order for a year plus $20 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 307 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. Are you struggling with jet lag? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I actually felt great yesterday, but because my youngest was up multiple times last night with a GI bug, I think that's actually why I don't feel great this morning. I don't think it's as much jet lag as much as it's just interrupted sleep multiple times at night is never good for feeling as mentally sharp as you normally are. I can't even string my words together properly. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm grateful for this. I feel like the more and more interviews I do, I feel like more and more people are focusing on the importance of sleep. I feel like every interview I do, if the question comes up of, like, what is the most important thing, it's often sleep. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, absolutely. And it's funny, I got back from London on Sunday and the first thing I did was I ate a good-sized dinner and literally two hours later just did an early bedtime and I felt great on Monday. I got light exposure, I went to the gym. I think it's a combination of solo parenting and then my older son and I were both up dealing with my younger son not feeling so great last night. My kids are pretty independent as teenagers, but when they're making a lot of noise it's hard to ignore them. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can imagine. I cannot be a parent. That's my thoughts on that. I have two really random things to talk about. One is, have you heard of a brand called Safe Catch? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you have? Nice. They reached out to me just randomly. They wanted to send me some samples. I'm so obsessed. I wanted to share them with listeners. So, for listeners, they are a brand that makes canned and those little packet-- I don't know what they're called. The packets that are flexible, like packets, I guess, bags of both tuna and salmon. And their main thing is that they extensively test for mercury levels, which I just think is so important because I'm really concerned about the levels of mercury in fish that we're eating, especially as a huge fish lover. It's great for the salmon, which salmon does tend to be lower in mercury anyways. But with tuna, I think it's like a really big problem because the levels in tuna can vary so wildly. So, this is a way for you to get your tuna and not worry about mercury. 

I'm looking at their website and they said that their Elite Wild Tuna is 10 times stricter levels than the FDA mercury limit. Their Wild Albacore Tuna is two and a half times stricter than the FDA mercury limit, and then their salmon is below the mercury limit as well. I'm not finding where they said how far below, but I will have to find some literature about it and put it in the show notes. But in any case, so I just wanted to share that with listeners as a nice resource. So, that is @safecatch.com and it's funny, they told me about this, like, back in October or November. I haven't shared it yet and so my coupon had expired, but I got them to reactivate it. That's why I have to share this now because it only goes through the end of March, but the code MELANIE AVALON will get you 20% off, which is amazing, so stock up. Again, this is something that you could really stock up on because it's cans and those little pouch things. The word is escaping me. Do you eat canned tuna or salmon?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a ton and I'll be completely transparent. I think after my high mercury levels, probably seven, eight years ago, the one thing that my functional medicine team and I have talked about is to eat less fish. And so, for me, I eat fish but very sparingly. I may only eat fish once or twice a month for full disclosure. But it's not that I don't like fish. I just don't want to expose myself to the amount of mercury that I was before. And even in our house, we do have some canned tuna if there's no other protein options, but it's never really my favorite.

If I'm going to have fish now, I'll usually pick the less predatory fish, that it's less of a concern. But I certainly, I mean, I love tuna. I'll be completely transparent, but I think it's allowed me to have more of a Wildatarian diet, to have a more variety of proteins and I think that's probably been beneficial for me. Our family, we definitely, during the pandemic, realized that we could lean into some Wildatarian meats and we found several that we really enjoyed, so more variety with land animals than water fish.

Melanie Avalon: I'm happy to hear you say that. I'm not happy that you went through the mercury experience, but I'm happy that you understand the issues with it. I really think it's a really big problem that most people are just not aware of. That's why I'm really excited about this brand, especially with so many people eating canned tuna and like I said tuna in particular because there's like, the list of fish that tend to be low mercury, which is-- so shellfish, tend to be the lowest. So that's like scallops and salmon. That's one of the reasons I eat so many scallops. And then after that, I mean, it's really like salmon. And actually, farm salmon tends to be lower than wild salmon, that I actually don't eat wild salmon for that reason. Tilapia tends to be low and then rainbow trout tends to be low, but beyond that, there really aren't. I get really nervous about fish, so I think this is a great resource for people. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's nice that there are companies that are becoming more savvy because there are marketing opportunities to connect with individuals that are going to go the extra mile. I know for us if we're going to buy fish, we usually will swing through Whole Foods or there's a fishmonger in the area that I live in, so we'll usually go through there. My husband's super picky and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that one of his hobbies is deep sea fishing. So, he's really picky, we have to buy the day off if we're going to eat it and therefore, we don't eat it often because it tends to be a little more high maintenance. And for me, I'm no longer in Washington DC, so things aren't as close. So, having to plan the extra amount of time in the car to go get fish, I'm like, I have to really really want it. 

And generally, that's become less and less common, especially because my kids, with the exception of shrimp, they really don't love shellfish or seafood, maybe other than lobster tails. For them, they're not big fish people. We've gotten to the point where we've made it so many times and they're picking at it, and then they're not finishing it, and then they're destroying the refrigerator after dinner because they're still looking for more food. And it's just made it so much easier. So, I tend to order it when I'm out if I know that I'm in a restaurant where I'm going to get high quality. 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Yeah, that's a whole tangent. If you go down the research rabbit hole about fish fraud, it is shocking, it's shocking. They've done tests and the amount of fish that's just not what it says it is at normal stores, like, at normal supermarkets, is shocking, like mislabeled. So, even then, you can't. You don't even know if you're getting what you're getting. I did just check and the Safe Catch fish is wild caught. So, that would be some wild caught salmon. Yeah, that was my tangent on fish. I had something else, but I can save it. I can save it for next time. Anything from you before we jump in? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, other than there are many reasons why London is one of my favorite cities and the food is definitely part of that. By far one of my favorite foodie cities. I think a lot of people don't realize the diversity in the food options that are there. My cousin, I jokingly told her that she needs to be my wife because everything, every restaurant she picked out, that we ate out for lunch and dinner was amazing. And we even had Russian food, we had Indian food. I mean, we had dim sum and we had everything you could imagine. And we did not have one less than stellar meal. It was pretty awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I feel like that's something you don't normally hear about London or England.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, London shopping is, like, second. I mean, I tell people all the time there's nothing in the United States. It's as good as some places in Europe. And, well, technically, that's the UK. But yeah, I mean, it's next level. I just think it's a huge financial economy and it just reminds me of why I love being there on multiple levels. I love the architecture, I love the food, and I just love everything about London. It's a great city. 

Melanie Avalon: What was your favorite thing that you did tourist wise?

Cynthia Thurlow: Because I've been there so many times as has my cousin, for us it was more about just spending time together and so every day it was kind of a similar thing. We allowed ourselves to kind of sleep in, which is easy given the fact there's a five-hour time difference and our bodies thought it was the middle of the night and we were getting up. But I would say experiencing definitely the food, the cuisine, I would say being able to shop with another woman as opposed to shopping with my husband and kids where no one wants to go shopping. Let me be clear, I did not buy anything for myself while I was there. 

I was definitely kind of gaming the ideas of, “Okay, when I come back to Europe or when I go to Europe later in the year, I'm going to make some purchases, but trying to kind of price things out.” Because whether people know this or not, sometimes the exchange rate works in your favor and it makes sense to purchase some things and sometimes it does not. And so, it didn't make sense to buy things there. I can wait till I'm in Portugal in April.

So, I would say the favorite things we did was just connecting and just exercising and just being outside. It was 50 degrees. It was super warm for that time of year. All the sightseeing we've done, all the big sites before. Westminster Abbey is probably one of my favorite things to do in London. Just having the opportunity to know that we didn't have to rush from one historical place to another because we've been there enough. I have a favorite hotel that I stay in and actually ironically enough her and her family prefer staying there. And so, it's a great part of the city where you can just walk around and everyone's very nice.

And then, ironically, I was watching a movie on the way home and it was set in the same hotel we stayed in. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, that's total validation that we stayed in the right place.” 

Melanie Avalon: What movie? 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's called Burnt, has Bradley Cooper in it. 

Melanie Avalon: Is he a chef? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Okay. Yeah, I saw that, but it's set in the same hotel we're in. I didn't even realize that until I started watching. I was like, “Oh, my God, that's our hotel.” [laughs] I was like, “What a coincidence.” But it was wonderful. It's just nice. I mean, for anyone that's listening that has kids and people you're responsible for, it's just nice to have, like, four days where you just do what you want to do and just enjoy the company of someone that you love. And my cousin is like the sister I never had, so we can talk about all the things and enjoy each other's company. And the irony is, we brought some of the same clothes. We didn't even realize that we have similar taste, which we knew. But as she was pulling stuff out and hanging in the closet, I was like, “Oh, my God, I have that same sweater with me. Oh, my gosh, I have that same jacket.” I'm not even realizing it. Just togetherness and time away from the family was a lot of fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. One of the books I'm reading right now is called The Fun Habit. I'm really excited to interview the author, but he talks all about this, the importance of having fun [chuckles] for the actual life and health benefits, how we disregard it as something that adults don't do or isn't important. But he makes the case it's just as important as so many other things in life. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And I think a lot of people travel. There are vacations like this and then there are vacations where you're only in a place for a certain amount of time. You've never been there, you want to see this attraction and that attraction and eat this place and not eat that place. For us, it was like we saw a play, we went out for a fabulous dinner, we had an amazing lunch. I mean Book of Mormon. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the musical?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I've never seen that before and it was quite funny. So, if listeners are not familiar with that, it was created by the same people that did South Park, which explains the humor in the movie. And I didn't actually realize that until right before we’re leaving and my 15-year-old shared that with me and I actually was like, thank you for sharing that with me because the whole time I was like, “Oh my God, this is like a South Park episode," little outrageous. 

Melanie Avalon: I listened to it when it came out, so I was young and it kind of scandalized me. I thought was very-- It's like "Oh."

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's a little raunchy. My kids were like, “Well, what does that word mean?” And I was like, “Well, a little, if I were of that religion, I would be definitely offended, but I'm not Mormon.” But it was entertaining, and I love going to theater, and it was just nice to be in the London theater district and enjoy a really nice dinner and just all that togetherness. And I agree with you, I think a lot of times people feel like they have to plan out every single minute of a vacation. I'm a huge advocate of some things being planned and then other things not being planned.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

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So, to start things off, we have a question from Chris and the subject is circadian rhythm and Chris says, “Hi, I'm listening to you and Cynthia in your latest podcast. It's always refreshing to listen to you both answer a reader's question. I just finished reading the Circadian Code by Dr. Satchin Panda. I was thinking I came onto it via one of your earlier podcasts. Anyway, I'm hoping that you and Cynthia have either read or will read this book. I feel like he really advocates for everybody to eat early in the day. And I know you say you like to eat later. My mom is like this. She works best at night, she's 86 and still cooks everything three times a day for her and my father, he has Alzheimer's. I keep wanting to tell her to stop eating at a certain time, but I know we're probably all different with cortisol. The point I want to make is I'd love to hear you do a podcast about their circadian code ideology. Maybe you have and I just haven't come across it yet. He makes a strong case for everyone to time their meals early in the day. I've been doing it for a week now and I noticed my hunger levels have definitely dropped off like you said they would. I was rather surprised. I have been intermittent fasting for five years now and I stalled out on weight loss, especially because of COVID. But since I have been following his ideology of having breakfast as the main meal and my last meal at seven or eight hours later, I've had way more energy on way less food. I don't snack between my two meals and I've been realizing how much better this works for me. I'm used to waiting until 12 or 1 to have my first meal.

Now I make sure I have a high protein breakfast with salmon and eggs or whatever meat I have around, and I always like to do a protein shake then, but I up my protein since I work out. I've noticed I don't need to worry as much as I have more energy. I'm still doing protein shakes now and then, but not like I was. I'm also noticing that I am intuitively eating more now. And I also noticed that when I finally have a piece of fruit like the typical blueberries or kiwi, it tastes like candy. It seems like my eating is way more intuitive now. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Keep up the good work with Cynthia. You guys are awesome.” 

He or she because Chris could be either way also says “Since reading his book, I am now more focused on time-restricted eating with a window of seven to eight hours. I love cutting my eating time off at 05:00 PM. And he also advocates making the same meal times, but sometimes that just doesn't work. So, I try to focus on my eating window and my non-snacking in between my two meals. I just can't believe how eating this big breakfast first thing when I get up in the morning has given me way more energy and then my second meal is way lighter what I eat because I'm just not as hungry. Again, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and Cynthia's thoughts.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Chris, thank you for your question. I am very familiar with this book. In fact, I'm sitting at my desk in my office and I can see it. Literally it's across from my vision. I'm a huge fan of eating aligned with our chronobiology, and for most people, obviously there are exceptions, most people actually do better with insulin sensitivity earlier in the day. I would imagine if you have parents that are in their 80s that you are at a minimum middle aged. And so, I do encourage individuals that are middle aged to really lean into eating when we are most insulin sensitive and the average middle-aged person is losing insulin sensitivity as they are aging. I'm not at all surprised that you feel great really having a larger breakfast and then eating a second meal seven to eight hours later. I think you're really harnessing the power of your circadian rhythms and circadian biology.

This is actually something that, from my perspective, I may not eat eight hours after my first meal, but I'm definitely closing my feeding window before dark and that really works well for me. Ironically enough, my cousin who was with me who's also a middle-aged person, we were laughing about the fact that we stopped eating by 5 or 6 o'clock at night. That has worked really well for us. I just want to encourage you to continue to leaning into things that make you feel good and as it pertains to your parents, the adage of the old, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. That applies in many ways, I think for some people it becomes very much a social opportunity for them if they're eating three times a day and sitting down with their loved ones. 

I think sometimes it's been my experience and most of my elderly patients and clients really aren't eating a lot of food. She may not be eating large boluses of food, but may just enjoy the social aspects. But if she's not open or receptive to eating less frequently, I think you just have to respect what works for them at this time in their lives. I do know that when my grandmother was getting older, she got to a point where she said that she just ate two small meals a day. That's really all she was hungry for. So much of this is really honoring our own biology and physiology and bio individuality. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with all of that, obviously. So, you've read the book. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually really surprised that I haven't read this book. I've listened to a lot of interviews that he's done. Have you had him on your show? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not, I have not. It's funny, I think because he's really like a true researcher. I always feel like the researchers are the ones that are sometimes harder to get on podcasts. I think about Lisa Mosconi is a good example of that. I keep saying eventually I'm going to have her on the podcast. She wrote XX Brain in case listeners are not familiar with her. But yeah, I actually was talking about some of his most recent research in two medical conferences I spoke at last week. That was really validating, eating less frequently and so I'm definitely pretty aligned with a lot of his methodology and research. Obviously, bio individuality really plays in a lot here. I think if you're a younger individual and you have more insulin sensitivity, you can probably eat later into the day. But I find that most of my female patients and clients don't do well if they have a large bolus of food and then try to go to bed two hours later. 

Melanie Avalon: I really want to try to reach out to him. I really like his research as well. And I agree with everything that you said. Again, I've talked about this at length before. I wish I was an earlier eating person. I wish that worked for me, I really, really do. It just doesn't for me personally. I do think there is an aspect of individuality. So, I do think some people naturally do better eating earlier and some people naturally do better eating later. When I say later, I don't mean necessarily what I do, which is really late. I've talked about this a lot as well. I wrote a long blog post about this. If you go to melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming, I tried to really look at all the studies and see what the takeaway was for me about when it seemed like objectively people should be eating and it did seem to be eating during--

For me, this was just my perspective. It did seem to be eating during daytime hours and my takeaway was probably more later afternoon to early evening just based on pure hormonal release of insulin, ghrelin, leptin. That's what I was mostly looking at. So, like hormones related to eating and hunger, when were they naturally ebbing and flowing just based on the time. What I think is really amazing about this Chris is that it sounds like you were doing something different. And I think it's super awesome that you were open to trying this and that it did work for you. That's super amazing. It seems like it was the thing that you were talking about being on a weight stall, and this was something that helped you push through a plateau that you were on. It sounds like you're assimilating food better probably since you're feeling the need for less protein even. Not to say that we should focus on less protein, but it sounds like you eating this way is probably helping you better assimilate and utilize the food.

I do encourage people to find the rhythm that works for them. For a lot of people, it possibly is earlier. If people find a rhythm that really does work for them and it is later and they're happy and it's working in their life and they're sleeping and they're working and it's working with their weight and their health. I also don't want people to completely over freak out and think they have to be eating earlier as well. But yes, so, to do list, to read that book and reach out to him. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a good book and it's not very thick. Right now, I'm trying to get through Ari Whitten's book, Eat for Energy and then I have to get through Dave Asprey's because I'm interviewing both of them next week. I'm like, “All right.” It's Super Bowl weekend this weekend, and I think I will be by myself because my husband's going on a snowboarding trip with his buddies, and I think my teenagers are both going to friends' houses. This is going to be a first. I'm reframing this, Melanie, as the universe is giving me an opportunity to do more prep for the week. I'm like, “Okay, I'm not going to look at this negatively. This is all a positive. My kids are in a good place. My husband's going away with his friends. I just got back from a trip. This is all good.” 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Does Dave have a new book coming out or is this for his other book? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, yeah, he has a new book. I think he's on the every other year plan, which is pretty prolific when you think about it. I'm still mulling additional book ideas run in my head, but yeah, he's like a workhorse. [laughs] He manages to do that because as you know the book writing process is not like instantaneous. It takes time and I think he must be working on the next book, when the next book comes out it's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's really exciting. I really liked Ari's book as well. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, good to know. It's literally sitting underneath my phone to remind me that that's the next thing to work on. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he was great too. So, well, very exciting. Shall we go on to our next question, which is a lingering question from our AMAs. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Amy. Amy says, “Can you use the Joovv for 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?” This is a very good question for Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I did specifically put this in today's episode because we are sponsored in part today by Joovv, so I thought we might as well answer a question related to it. So, for people who are not familiar, Joovv makes red and near infrared light therapy devices. I've been using mine for years. I really don't know what I would do without it. So, a few different things. One, it's funny because they sort of made a mode for this when they released the newer version, but I've been doing this from the beginning, which is I actually use it for ambient light. I have it on pretty much 24/7, but not super close. Well, when I'm at my desk, it is little bit close to me, but I just find that the red light really helps counteract a lot of the blue light that we're exposed to. It's wonderful waking up in the morning and then in the evening I use it to light my whole apartment at night. 

So, speaking of circadian rhythm and sleep, I find it so helpful for that. But the main reason people are using it is for targeted treatment. It helps with inflammation, muscle soreness, skin, so many things. Her question is basically, can you use it for 10 minutes all over your body or only a part of your body? You can do your whole body in a day. So, the answer would be you could do 10 minutes all over your body and if you have one of the larger units, like the Solo, then you could do more of a full body treatment at once. I do have the Solo, but then I have the Mini, which would be more like your face or a smaller area. They have the Go, which is like very small areas that's handheld. I take that while traveling, which is awesome, but it's really a good investment, especially if you're going, like I go to Restore Hyper Wellness. That's where I do my cryotherapy.

I have a daily membership there which, by the way, I really recommend Restore. They're getting bigger and bigger, so they're in a lot of cities and they have cryotherapy, they have sauna, and they have red light. That would be a good way to try red light to see if you like it. They have compression suits for your legs. And I think the daily membership, if you're going every day, is definitely worth it. But what I was going to say is, time wise, it's just so much more cost effective and time effective for me to have the devices at home. It really does pay for itself. I'm just thinking about that phrase, "It really does pay for itself." Like, is that actually a true statement ever if you pay for something, [chuckles] can it actually ever pay for itself? I don't know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think it depends on what it is. I sometimes and this drives my husband crazy. So, this is like triggering when I'll say, “Oh, cost per wear.” Like, if I buy a pair of jeans or a nice handbag or a nice pair of shoes, I'm like but if I'm going to wear this every day or three or four times a week and I'm going to wear it for years, then the cost per wear makes sense versus something you wear once and it sits in your closet. So, I think it's the same thing, as an example, I use my PEMF mat every single day and love it. But if I bought something like that and only used it occasionally, then it might not make sense. So, I think it really depends on the individual. Like, I love, we have Restore Hyper Wellness too, and I think they do a fantastic job. 

I use them for IVs in particular around travel because the hydration, you just can't stay hydrated enough when you're traveling, I don't care how much water and electrolytes you consume. But, Melanie, this is a great question for Melanie, because I don't have a Joovv device, but I keep saying I'm going to buy one, so maybe this now the impetus to go buy one. 

Melanie Avalon: You should definitely get, like I literally can't understand my life without it. I mean, I can, but so the red light in the morning and the evening is a game changer for me. And then the light is so therapeutic. Like, when I'm sitting at my desk, it just feels good, like it just feels good. And then with a targeted treatment, I find it very, very effective with muscle pain and things like that. So, yeah, big fan. And I will agree with the cost per wear thing.

I interviewed Matt Simon for his book A Poison Like No Other, all about microplastics and he talks all about the role of plastics in our clothing, which blew my mind. I didn't realize that most clothing is largely plastic. I didn't realize just how pervasive plastic is. I think I had way too much of-- it was in a box in my head that only stuff that was obviously plastic was plastic. I didn't realize that basically everything has plastic. I mean most things have plastic. And so, clothing actually sheds a ton of plastic. And so, you can tell your husband this. He makes the case that one of the best things we can do for clothing is to buy really high-quality outfits and wear them a lot. They stop shedding plastic. So, the more you wear them, the less plastic you're shedding. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. My cousin was saying that she wants to have a capsule wardrobe and so I was reminding her that one thing I've made a very deliberate effort in the past 6 to 12 months is to be ruthless about not buying things I don't need. So, as an example, I'm a sweater wearer, I love sweaters, I love to be warm in the winter and I literally have bought no sweaters this year. So, it's like I'm definitely curtailing what I'm wearing. The thing I was most surprised about was that a lot of athletic wear, like, Athleta as an example, I don't have a lot of Athleta in my wardrobe, but a lot of those athletic companies, most of what you're wearing is plastics, which is disturbing because you're thinking about, you're sweating in athletic wear, those sports bras and other things. I was like, “Oh, that's a bummer.” 

Melanie Avalon: It's really, really, crazy, the percentage of and it's even like normal clothes that you wouldn't think are plastic. It made me feel a lot better because I really do wear almost the same thing every day. So, I was like, well, doing something good for the environment. So, that whole tangent, but yeah, to answer the question, Amy, you can use it all over your body and you can listen to the ad in today's show about Joovv. But we do have a coupon. It gives you a discount if you go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. So yeah, okie dokie. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Chrissy. The subject is IF and surgical recovery. And Chrissy says, Hi ladies, I've listened to every show and I finally have a question. I've been practicing IF with a Whole Foods diet for one year now. I've seen so many improvements including elimination of daily headaches, insomnia, joint pain, and even anxiety. The most surprising improvement was my asthma. Before IF, I took eight inhalations of steroids daily along with frequent use of my rescue inhaler and nebulizer. This year I only needed one daily puff of steroid during peak allergy season in July and August and I never need rescue meds anymore. I made this change to lose weight and was shocked with all the improvements. I've sustained a 35-pound weight loss for the first time ever and I'm thrilled to be back in size 4 pants at 44 years of age. 

Now, for my question, "I've been experiencing a lot of pelvic pain over the last six months and ultrasound shows fibroids and a potentially suspicious uterine growth. I'll have a DNC.” What is a DNC?

Cynthia Thurlow: Dilation and curettage. Usually, they go in and they scrape the inside of the uterus, take a biopsy. It's a very routine procedure, but still scary because you're having a minor medical procedure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Is that similar to a I cannot say the word, a col-- 

Cynthia Thurlow: Colposcopy, that's different. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's different, okay. “So, I'll have a DNC with biopsy next month and if it's at all worrisome, I will likely opt for a hysterectomy. With all of the improvements I've seen, I truly believe diet can heal. What is the best way to use nutrition and fasting to help myself heal quickly if I do need the surgery? I used ADF to lose the weight and one or two meals a day to maintain depending on my hunger cues. Thank you and much love.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Chrissy, thank you so much for sharing all of the success you've had. And really, this is a great example of the reduction in inflammation that you experienced with fasting versus the eat to stoke your metabolism, eat multiple snacks and many meals a day. I'm sorry to hear that you've been experiencing some pelvic pain and hopefully this will turn out to be no issues. Just have your DNC and a biopsy that will end up being benign. I would say that from my perspective, the best way to use nutrition and fasting to help heal from surgery is first and foremost an anti-inflammatory diet. So, really removing the most inflammatory foods, which are gluten grains, dairy, sugar, alcohol at least for the short term, something that's a Whole30 evoking process and a Whole30 for anyone that's listening is really not designed to be done in perpetuity. It really is just a 30-day anti-inflammatory diet. 

It makes it easy because unlike years ago when I used to recommend it to patients, there are now Whole30-approved barbecue sauce and other things that just make your life so much easier. So, it's really just eating protein, healthy vegetables, fruit, and then just cutting out the most inflammatory foods. The other thing is, I'm not a huge fan of over fasting, especially because it sounds, like now you're at a happy place in terms of your weight. So, I would say if you're doing fasting, I would still try to get in two meals a day so that you're hitting your protein macros. Protein is certainly going to be important in a postoperative period, even in a minor surgery. Hopefully you won't need a hysterectomy. From my perspective, it sounds like you really laid the foundation to be able to heal. And I would say the additional things that I would consider doing is removing additional inflammatory foods if they're even still part of your diet and then also considering making sure you're getting your protein needs met on a daily basis. And so, I would say at least 40 to 50 g of protein in a meal, so close to 100 grams of protein a day would be a good starting point. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: I think we've talked about this on the show before. I had gone and looked at all the studies that I could find on fasting and surgery and there were some pretty interesting ones about the benefits of fasting, more so leading up to surgery and then affecting, it was more stuff like post operative nausea and stuff like that it was looking at. I agree with what you were saying about, it sounds like she's at a good place right now with her fasting and so, I wouldn't overdo the fasting just because of the surgery and everything. You definitely-- I mean Cynthia, hit on all the points. Like you want to make sure with surgery that you have adequate nutrition for your body to recover and heal and the anti-inflammatory aspect of that is so, so important. I would immediately, surrounding the surgery, make sure you're getting the meals to recover and making sure that they are the anti-inflammatory meals and just doing what's been working, not going overly crazy.

So, separate from probably not surrounding the surgery because there are contraindications with surgery. But when you're beyond all of this, I was just thinking while reading this, if you do still have allergy issues and you've had things like fibroids, so serrapeptase that I take, that is amazing for allergies that personally for me makes allergy season-- For me it's not summer, it's spring. I just react to all the grass, just wipes me out and I don't have any issues when I take serrapeptase. So, that might be something that you want to try Chrissy, so that's my, again, not immediately surrounding the surgery, because I think there're often contraindications for that. But when you are on the other side of it, so you can get that @avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIE AVALON will get you 10% off or you can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. So that's AVALONX to 877-861-8318. But either way, wishing you the best with your surgery. Normally we have a date. I'm not sure when this came in, but I am sure it will all go wonderfully. And it's really great that you are super aware of the role of diet in all this because so many people just are not. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next podcast sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially gave it a try because I wanted to simplify my supplement regimen, and quite frankly, I probably have tried every product on the market. And AG1’s taste is amazing. I take it typically in the morning, after working out, and when I'm getting ready to break my fast. Very quickly, I noticed that it helped me with improved digestion, made my hair and skin look even better, and helped support my sleep. I do consider it to be one of my absolutely essential supplements I take most days of the week. 

With just one scoop I get the nutrients and gut health support that helps my whole body thrive and cover my nutritional bases. As I mentioned, it's really important to me that I keep my regimen as simple as possible. An AG1 is one of those supplements that really helps me thrive. It's also a Climate Neutral Certified company. That means they are a fully carbon neutral business. They've also designed a carbon reduction plan designed to reduce overall environmental impact, which is really important to me. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase, go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. That's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Anne and this is an autophagy question. “Hi, I've read that autophagy doesn't begin until one reaches a 24 to 48-hour fast. I cannot go that long. I've been doing 19:5 or 20:4 meaning fasting for 19 to 20 hours with a four or five-hour feeding window. I wanted to know if you believe that we reach autophagy in those fasting hours. Thank you," Anne. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Anne, thank you so much for your question. I might reserve the right to have a part one and then I'm going to do some more research for a part two because honestly, when I sat down to research this, I was like, “Oh, I'll find some information pretty quickly. Not so much. So, this was something I'd been wanting to look into especially because Peter Attia talks about this a lot and he's the last that I heard. He thinks that you don't really get any measurable bump in autophagy with just general everyday fasting. I found one pretty good review, but it was from 2018 and it's called The effect of fasting or calorie restriction on autophagy induction: A review of the literature. That was a review up until 2018. Just a little fun fact really quickly. That one I could only find the abstract. 

If that happens to you, search for the name of the title-- Well, A, if that happens to you, ResearchGate often has the full studies. I love that website. If they don't have it, which they didn't, if you search for the title and then add PDF to it, you can sometimes find, well, A, the actual study or B, the submitted manuscript. So that's what I found. That's how I was able to read the whole thing. But in any case, what was really interesting about that review, and again this was 2018, so about five years ago, it went deep into autophagy. 

There're actually three main types of autophagy. For example, there's macroautophagy, microautophagy, and chaperone-mediated autophagy and basically what they have to do is just how that process actually happens, but macroautophagy is the one we most often think of and it was nice to read it because I feel like I've been talking too casually about autophagy. Like whenever I talk about it, I'm like, “Oh yeah, it's like a cellular renewal process, it breaks down old proteins,” and I kind of stop there. But reading this through made me realize again just how important this process is. So, it helps with so many health-related issues. It's necessary for cellular function.

The reason I think it's important to draw attention to that is I think people sometimes think that we only get this autophagy process when we're fasting, which is not the case. It's literally happening 24/7, literally on some level. I mean if you think about it, when cells create, they get broken and they have waste products and our body has to get rid of that. Now, the level to which you get rid of it and the level to which you get proper autophagy levels might affect how good you are at that process and how much recovery you get from that. So, it's nice to do things that can support autophagy, but it is happening all the time. So that's a little myth to dispel. 

What's really interesting is a lot of cellular states can create it. That includes calorie restriction and fasting which are two ways that can potentially potently activate it, that also have health benefits beyond that compared to things like, so even like infection can create it, oxidative stress can encourage it. So, I found that really, really interesting. But in any case, one of the main benefits for autophagy is the effects on neurodegenerative diseases because it can help with that protein build up that can affect our neurons and create neurodegenerative issues.

Here's the thing that study with the review, the majority of the studies I was looking at and there were a lot, but they were all in rodents and I honestly don't know how that correlates to humans for autophagy just because of how the circadian rhythm of a rodent compares to a human. I don't know if we see the same activation, especially since a 24-hour fast in a rodent is like a huge fast in a human. So, the studies in autophagy in humans are actually pretty hard to find.

The majority of the ones I could find were in muscle autophagy in humans and one of the main ones I was looking at was called Training state and skeletal muscle autophagy in response to 36 h of fasting. It did look at fasting up to 36 hours. So, 2 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours and what was interesting is it actually depended on whether or not the person was trained or not. It had different responses. So, on top of just you as a person fasting whether or not you're trained might affect your autophagy response. But one of the main things that encourages autophagy is the activation of AMPK and the downregulation of mTOR. 

So, mTOR is activated by food and nutrition and protein. It's a growth stimulus. And then the AMPK pathway is activated from fasting and calorie restriction and it activates longevity pathways and so it helps activate autophagy. So, even if there's not a lot of studies on autophagy, there are a lot of studies on AMPK activation, which does seem to happen while fasting and a dose response curve.

So, I also found a newer study, a journal article called Physiological responses to acute fasting: implications for intermittent fasting programs. And I'm really sad because I could not find the full article. All I could do was the abstract and this was a November 2021 study. But something important to note was that the end of it says that a single fast demonstrated the ability to alter glucose, so that's blood sugar and lipid, that's fat metabolism within the initial 24 hours. But variations in protein metabolism appear to be minimal within this time frame and then here comes the key. The ability of an acute fast to elicit significant increases in autophagy is still unknown. That was really what I walked away with. Going back to that earlier review I talked about, I found it so interesting and actually a little bit frustrating because it was a very very deep dive, like a very deep dive. It's very long. 

It goes into autophagy for all the different individual areas like autophagy in the kidneys, autophagy in the muscle, autophagy in the heart. The majority of the studies are rodent studies. And then at the end, it makes the conclusion that fasting does upregulate autophagy. They're kind of saying that the way it reads is that that applies to humans. But then the confusing thing is the majority of the studies are looking at are rodents. I don't really know how that extends to humans. And so, it's hard to reach to the conclusion that it's a very vague conclusion. I think it's a very vague idea that a lot of people have about fasting and autophagy and I think we just don't know. 

Like, I think this 2021 study, which was actually published in 2022, I guess it was published online in 2021 and in the journal in 2022, I think their summary about it's unknown. That's what I came away with. We don't actually know with fasting, in humans how much it's increasing autophagy. All of that said, I'll go back to what I said earlier about we do know autophagy is linked to AMPK. We know that AMPK is activated by fasting and that the longer you fast, you're probably getting more of that stimulus. So, I would say that probably the longer you fast, you're getting more autophagy. All of that to say, I wouldn't stress about it too much. I would just know that fasting is creating these beneficial health effects. But I wouldn't do fasting specifically to activate autophagy if that makes sense. If that's the case, I don't know, but you might need to do a longer fast to get like really deep autophagy, kind of like Peter Attia says. That was a long answer. What are your thoughts, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you for that beautiful explanation. I just want to take that and just say that there are other ways to induce autophagy in the body that are not just related to fasting because I think oftentimes people forget that there are other ways to upregulate autophagy and one of those is exercise. And I think a lot about high intensity interval training as being one. I think about low-carb diets which can be helpful. I think about hot and cold exposure. I know we spoke earlier about Joovv and that's a different type of red light therapy, but I always say exposure to extreme, so extremes of temperature can be very helpful. I remind people that it's funny, there's one podcast that I really like. It's always like short little 15, 20-minute clips. And so, Mike Mutzel whose High Intensity Health and he was talking about would you rather fast really long or just do HIIT or just do these other things. So, just something to consider that there are other ways to upregulate this process beyond fasting. Even hyperbaric oxygen therapy has been shown to induce autophagy and there're even foods that can help induce autophagy, like in the brain. I think about things that are polyphenol rich, so coffee and green tea. I also think about MCT oil, ginger and turmeric, even sulforaphane, there's good research on that as well, so just something to consider. 

Obviously, I'm coming at it from a different direction, but I know that for myself, I don't like really long fasts and I think after my experience, it's almost four years ago now and it's getting less and less triggered by this. But doing long fast is just not going to be part of my fasting practice given how long I was unable to eat. So, from my perspective, if you feel like you really struggled to get to 18, 19, 20 hours, don't white-knuckle it, like no one listening to this podcast, that is never the message that we are trying to send. We want there to be common sense. We want you to have success with using this strategy or other types of strategies, but we definitely want you to be cognizant of where you feel like your limitations are and there's no shame in that whatsoever. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, even coffee, oh my goodness. Even coffee has been shown to upregulate it and can't believe I forgot berberine. How did I forget that. So, my most recent supplement berberine, it's actually a potent activator of both AMPK and autophagy, which is super awesome. So, its main benefit that people take berberine for is blood sugar control. So, it can rival the effects of metformin for its blood sugar lowing potential and its ability to reduce HbA1c. It can help with the gut microbiome. There’s actually, I found, an entire paper dedicated to its effect on AMPK, which was an autophagy, which is super awesome. So, you can also get that @avalonx.us and those coupon codes will work as well. 

But yeah, I'm glad, Cynthia, that you drew attention to that there are a lot of ways to stimulate it, and I wish I could find it, but literally there's a study and I just loved it because it literally said, autophagy is a process happening 24/7 in the body, which I think a lot of people don't quite realize.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think it's interesting because both Thomas DeLauer and Mike speak about this a lot. So, even with my team, I've reminded them that we need to make sure that we're offering different options because there are some people that they would have to white-knuckle it to get to a 24-hour fast. There're other ways to evoke these processes in the body without having to white-knuckle it. I'll be completely transparent and say that I loathe being cold, but that just tells me that I need to be cold more often. So, [laughs] you're doing cryotherapy has become something I do once or twice a week because that's obviously what my body needs. If it's the thing I don't want to be doing, it's generally the thing I need to be doing. 

Melanie Avalon: That's something that happened since we've talked. I interviewed Thomas DeLauer.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love Thomas. He's so smart. 

Melanie Avalon: He was really, really great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Super smart. He's such a smart guy. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He likes [chuckles] kind of what I just did with the studies. He loves diving. He really follows the literature. I was really impressed. Like, I asked him questions and he just had all these studies ready and waiting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I'm excited. I'll see him in less than two weeks. We're both speaking at the same event. He's speaking on Friday, I'm speaking on Saturday, but I'll be able to see him again. He's incredibly-- I think it's a really good example of a guy who's really well respected in the space and so knowledgeable. And I tell him all the time, he'll pull a study that I hadn't even seen and I'm like, “Oh, I'm down a rabbit hole,” because [laughs] Thomas did a video on it and now I need to know more about it. So, he does create his great content on YouTube. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought it was really great. What's interesting is when I had asked for questions from listeners, a lot of the main questions I got, they actually wanted to know about his family and his wife. So, that's how I started off the show and I thought it was-- I think it was a nice way to start because he was able to speak too like his wife's experience with social media and it was a really fun conversation. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I spoke at an event with him, so I met him in October of 2021, and he is as nice and down to earth as they could be. It was kind of Ben Azadi and I and Anna Cabeca and some other people spoke at this event, and he was just so gracious. He's actually little bit shy, which I was surprised by. I think people are surprised to learn that I'm shy, but he's really shy, but could not have been nicer. Really nice guy. He seems like a very devoted husband and parent to his kids. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually that's how I ended it, was asking him about how he deals with diet and nutrition and all of that with his kids. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. So where are you speaking? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm speaking at Low Carb Denver and this is probably the event I've been most excited to speak at because so many of my friends are speaking at it. It's going to be like a big reunion, [laughs] which will be a lot of fun. Some of my team is coming, and it's in Denver, and we have family in Denver, and so for me it's always a special place to fly to. And I can fly direct, Melanie, that's huge. [laughs] Where I live in the United States nothing flies direct. So, if I can fly direct, it's a win-win. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. Awesome, awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. I'm just thinking about how I need to update that page. If anybody is looking for an internship, I should probably start, like, publicizing this. I haven't actually listed. Have you had an intern before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, not yet. 

Melanie Avalon: I need to list this. I just need to take the step to put the listing up, but I should probably start putting that out to the universe. If anybody's in school and would like to do an internship, I just would love to bring on an intern tangents. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, Cynthia is @cynthia_ thurlow_. The show notes for today's episode that will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, because we talked about a lot of stuff. So, the Safe Catch coupon, Joovv, all the studies, the AvalonX supplements, all the things that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode307. All righty, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, this has been great. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, and I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 12

Episode 304: AMA Part 5, Thirst, Dehydration, Sleep Disturbances, Cholesterol, Worst Jobs Ever, Favorite Meals, Bad Diets, Internet Trolls, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

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13:15 - Listener Q&A: Celia - New to keto and IF(6 months in) and I am SOOOO thirsty ALL NIGHT LONG! Up 3 & 4 times, drinking LMNT, and going to the bathroom and having a hot flash. HELLLPPPPPPP

Hormonal Changes During Menopause and the Impact on Fluid Regulation

24:45 - BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

27:00 - Listener Q&A: Lynn - Is high cholesterol bloodwork common with intermittent fasting?

INSIDE TRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Ep. 196 – Alternative Tools to Optimize Your Health

Ep. 128 – Cholesterol Obsession: Why It’s the Intellectual Property of the Animal Kingdom with Dave Feldman

36:15 - Listener Q&A: Kim - Hi! Would you recommend fasting longer and then have a 3-4 hour eating window or fasting shorter but having 2 meals, no snacks in a longer eating window, say a 6-7 hour eating window? 53year old female, post menopause, exercises daily with walking and lifting, tries to eat real Whole Foods and wants to lose another 5-10 pounds then enter maintenance. Thanks so much! Love your podcasts and the fantastic info you both share

39:45 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What’s the worst job that you have had? If you weren’t doing what you are what would you be doing?

47:45 - Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What is your favorite dinner?

53:45 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

55:10 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - What are some health related things you’ve tried that you really didn’t like or had bad side effects to?

1:00:00 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - What’s one beauty or health product/fad that didn’t work for you? 

Go to melanieavalon.com/dime and use the code MELANIEAVALON for an exclusive discount.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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It is so, so important to replenish electrolytes if you want to have energy and an active lifestyle. A lot of people experience the keto flu or issues while fasting, like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness. These are all common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. You might think you’re not doing well with fasting or that the keto diet isn’t for you, when really, you just need electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you’d like to learn all about the science of electrolytes and get answers to commonly asked questions, definitely check out the interview I did with my hero, Robb Wolf, on this show. He’s also one of the co-founders of LMNT.

There have been moments in my life where I needed electrolytes and drinking some LMNT took me from a state of fatigue to feeling like my body was actually alive. Of course, it can be hard to find electrolytes, which are clean and good to put in your body. That’s why I adore LMNT.

LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don’t. That’s a science-backed electrolyte ratio, 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 mg of magnesium with none of the junk. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS, because we don't have time for that. You guys know I’m obsessed with purity and quality of supplements. LMNT is the electrolyte supplement that I recommend. When you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. When sodium is not replaced, a common side effect is muscle cramps and fatigue. LMNT is used by everyone, including NBA, NFL, and NHL players, Olympic athletes, Navy SEALS, and of course, everyday moms and dads, those practicing intermittent fasting, the keto or paleo diet, and exercise enthusiasts.

Right now, LMNT has a fantastic offer for our audience. You can get a free sample pack with any purchase. That’s eight single-serving packets of eight different flavors for free with any LMNT order. Yes, the raw unfavored version is clean fast friendly. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That’s D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom/ifpodcast. Try it totally risk-free. If you don’t like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give you your money back, no questions asked. You literally have nothing to lose. We’ll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight.

Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because, ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. 

The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have Countertime for anti-aging, Countermatch for normal skin, Countercontrol for acne and oily prone, and Counterstart for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted the Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20, to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20, to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I'm excited to ask you. This actually airs the day before Valentine's Day. How do you feel about Valentine's Day? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I'm laughing because my team just sent me a message and said, "How do you want us to address Valentine's Day on social media?", which I thought was humorous. I think it's one of those contrived holidays that, for a lot of people, makes them feel badly about themselves. Obviously, I've been married for almost 20 years. I've been with my husband for almost 21 years. So, from my perspective, irrespective of where I was in life stage throughout my lifetime, I always spent it with people that I loved. And so, whether it was girlfriends getting together or whether it was who I was dating or my husband, I think Valentine's Day is one of those days that feels very contrived, and it's far more important how you treat your loved ones for the other 364 days out of the year. I don't put a lot of emphasis on it. 

It was always a fun thing to do with the kids when they were younger. Maybe we got them something fun, or maybe we had like a Valentine's Day themed breakfast or dinner. I mean, something that was fun. I don't put a lot of effort, not that I don't put an effort, but it's not something that to me is representative of a whole lot of anything other than a contrived holiday. I don't know if you feel similarly or are you all in on Valentine's Day and go bananas?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I have a question. When you were like in elementary school-- I'm just wondering how long they've been doing, because when I was in elementary school, would you guys do the Valentines that you would give to everybody?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: [chuckles] I was just reflecting on that recently because it's really a little bit traumatic for kids, I think, because I don't know, at least for me, when I was giving the Valentine, you get the cards with all the different ones, and you give your favorite cards to your favorite people. The guy you like, you give the one that's trying to send a secret message to him. I don't know, it's just like a lot. [laughs] It's like a lot for little kids, and then there's candy on top of that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting because my kids grew up in the age where you give a card to everyone, which is fine. But to me, as a parent, it was trying to get creative with cards and get your kids to sit down and sign their name and their friend's name. It just became this very large project. And yes, the candy thing. It's like I remember before we'd even gotten to Christmas, the grocery store started putting out Valentine's Day candy. And I was just thinking to myself, processed food industry just has a field day but these kinds of contrived holidays. I'm all about spending time with people you love. And if you can't spend time with people you love, don't make a big deal about it. I don't think anyone should feel badly about Valentine's Day. 

I think when I was in college, I was in a big sorority, and I just remember people felt so left out if they weren't coupled on these holidays. And yet, the way I look at it is that's not what it's about. It's like, how do you treat the people that you love 364 days out of the year? On this one day, maybe you do something special, but it shouldn't put you into debt. It shouldn't stress you out. It shouldn't mean that you have to spend $150 on a super overpriced bunch of roses. I think sometimes people lose sight of what's most important is the point I'm trying to make. 

Melanie Avalon: I find it really interesting because I've never had-- I don't know if I did in high school, I've never really had FOMO about being in a relationship. I just love being single all about it. Valentine's has never really distressed me in any way. It didn't bother me that I didn't have somebody to do it with. It was just like another day. I do remember though it's funny how you'll have certain memories that really stick with you. I remember when I was in college or-- I think I was in college, and I was dating somebody and I thought were dating pretty regularly. I just really casually asked, “What do you want to do for Valentine's Day?” He was like, “Oh, well, should we do something for Valentine's Day?” I was like, “Oh, okay, never mind.” That was not the question to ask. This Valentine's Day actually, I'm doing something. So, I'm excited about it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, for full disclosure, my husband's going to be on a snowboarding trip with his buddies and I'm totally okay with that for a variety of reasons. Admittedly, for our anniversary last year, I was out in LA, doing press. So, [laughs] we talk about these things ahead of time. I think if you're separated from your significant other, that's okay too. You just set aside time to spend time together and do something that you enjoy together as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the other thing that stresses me out about it is because I was a server for so long and fine dining, so I know what Valentine's Day is like. It's like the craziest day [laughs] for being a server. Like this year, I do want to go to a restaurant on Valentine's Day. But then, I know what's going on in the server's head, so I don't want to go. But then again, well, you can make a lot of money on Valentine's Day as a server.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep, I remember those days. I used to always say, like New Year's Eve, like any of the big holidays, you don't always get a great meal and everything's just chaotic. But yes, you can definitely do well as a server. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like the craziest day. So Happy Valentine's Day or Single Awareness Day or whatever you want to call it. Today's episode, we are continuing from all the AMA questions that we got. And last episode, we did all fasting related ones, and we have a few more of those, so we're going to start with those. May or may not take up the whole episode, and if they don't, we will go to some of our other random AMAs that we still have. So, lots of fun stuff. So, to start things off, we have a question from Celia. She says, “I am new to Keto and IF. I'm six months in and I am so thirsty all night long,” and there's a lot of caps with that. She says, “I'm up three and four times drinking LMNT and going to the bathroom and having a hot flash. Help.” Lots of caps with that too. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm glad that you read this and not me because I could not have done-- 

Melanie Avalon: Help. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well, Celia, a couple of things. First and foremost, when patients tell me that they're up urinating multiple times a night, I have to ask when do you stop drinking water or start/stop drinking liquids because that's very important. Some people have a propensity for an overactive bladder. Drinking or limiting your fluids after 6:00 PM is certainly going to be important. You mentioned hot flashes, so I have to believe you're at least in the perimenopause, menopause realm and I found a really interesting paper that I was discussing with Melanie before we started recording. This is from Reproductive Sciences, Hormonal Changes During Menopause and the Impact on Fluid Regulation. So, the big takeaway for everyone, without me diving deep into this paper, is talking about the net impact of fluid regulation in the body for women as they are transitioning into perimenopause and menopause. 

And so, big takeaway is we are not as good about recognizing when we get thirsty. Sometimes people are not realizing that they're actually dehydrated and by the time they get thirsty, they're really dehydrated. So, they spend all this time catching up. This is actually a byproduct of the loss of estrogen. So, perimenopause is this time where there's dynamic fluctuations in estrogen, sometimes even much higher than they are when we're at peak fertile years. We're losing progesterone, our ovaries are producing less, our adrenals are trying to pick up the slack, and then we have these wild fluctuations in estrogen. And so, we know that estrogen in particular is very important for regulating fluid balance in the body. So, this can directly impact our ability to recognize when we are thirsty and can also impact some of these key mechanisms in the body, like hormones, like the renin-angiotensin, aldosterone system, atrial natriuretic peptide secretion, which all impact regulation in the kidneys and then these fluid responses. 

So, big takeaway is first and foremost, make sure that you're not drinking too much water after 6 o'clock at night. Number two, make sure you're using electrolytes during the day, throughout the day. The other thing that's interesting, and we'll link this study up so people can take a look at it. There's actually a figure here about osmotic regulation in women during different phases of the menstrual cycle and in men. So, it's a superimposition of the men, it's very consistent in terms of where they are. For women, you can actually see that there are changes when they have more estrogen in their bodies versus less. And so, I really think that this speaks to a couple of things both behavioral. Making sure you're hydrating enough during the day period, and then also understanding that there is some hormonal fluctuation with the loss of estrogen that is probably exacerbating this. And like I said, we will tack this along into the show notes that you'll have it available to reference as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that was so helpful. I learned so much. 

Cynthia Thurlow: There is too much information that is so helpful. The other thing that I just wanted to mention before is there's something called anti-diuretic hormone. And when women are getting up at night to pee or urinate a lot, we call that nocturia. You're getting up at night to pee, so nocturia is urinating at night. You start thinking about, is your anti-diuretic hormone which is what concentrates your urine at night. Is that not working properly? Sometimes that can also be a byproduct of things like sleep apnea. There's a lot that can impact ADH secretion. Just something to consider and a way to think about this is, sometimes ADH secretion gets dysregulated when we drink alcohol, which is why sometimes people will feel like when they're drinking alcohol, they're urinating a lot. It's because you get this dysregulation of this key hormone. It's a couple of different variables that may be at play. 

The last thing I would mention is the hot flashes. That could be blood sugar mediated or that could also be your brain sending an SOS to your ovaries like release some estrogen. So, this is another component. There's a lot of different things that could be going on but be reassured that this is something we have to be very conscientious about. Like, I can tell you that on days I travel and I cannot drink enough water, I am really, really thirsty at night. The other piece of that is I'm always thinking to myself personally, “Is there an insulin issue? Am I becoming insulin resistant? Why am I thirsty?” I think a lot of it has to do with if you're not drinking enough water during the day, your body is trying to play catch up and you start to lose those mechanisms to remind you that you need to drink. That was long. 

Melanie Avalon: No, that was great. It was very, very helpful. Do you find with most of your female patients who are having all these experiences that IF and fasting, what do you normally see? Does it normally help? Make it worse? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think most people that are fasting are just more attuned to their bodies in general. So, I think they start to try to figure out what's contributing to this. Because if this is a change, then what's mitigating it? So, I always say, let's work with the most benign things first. Let's make sure you're not drinking too many fluids after 6 o'clock at night. Let's make sure you're getting plenty of electrolytes throughout the day. Let's make sure you're not insulin resistant because that nocturia piece can be problematic. And then, you kind of work backwards. I would say pick the low-lying fruit first and then work backwards. But I do find most women in particular that are intermittent fasters are leaning into what their body is trying to communicate to them. So, I think they tend to stay on top of these kinds of symptoms. Like, whereas someone else might just say, “Oh, I wake up three or four times a night to sleep.” 

The other thing I would say is, and I want to make sure I emphasize this, if your sleep quality is eroded because you are fasting, or you can't get your fluids in during the day, then you need to make some changes because sleep is foundational to our health. So, if you can't sleep through the night, we have to fix that first. So, if you are new to fasting and you're finding it's really challenging to be able to sleep properly through the night, we need to work on that. That is the number one priority. It could be that maybe you back off and you're just doing a 12- or 13-hour window of digestive rest as a way to make sure we can dial in on the sleep piece, because if you're not sleeping through the night, that's a disqualifier. I always say that's super important and it's interesting. 

I'm getting ready to interview Louisa Nicola. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her work, but she's a brain health researcher. One of the things I want to talk to her about is that interrelationship between poor quality sleep and weight loss resistance because that is such a big, huge problem for so many people. 

Melanie Avalon: Does she have a book? 

Cynthia Thurlow: She does not have a book, but she has one of my favorite, favorite podcasts. So, her podcast is The Neuro Experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Very cool. 

Cynthia Thurlow: She's getting her PhD. No book yet, but she has a really great she has great content. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I think that's a pretty comprehensive answer. Thank you. I'm always really curious about people's electrolytes because she says she's drinking LMNT. I just find it so interesting, the actual sodium and aldosterone system and all of that. I think for some people, it can be like they got to find what works for them to where they're staying hydrated and not fluctuating between releasing water, thirsty, retaining water. A lot of people get in their groove with LMNT and they're good to go, but maybe that might be something to dose around. I don't know if she needs more or less, but I'd be curious, especially when it's coupled with keto and low-carb.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and I start to think it because she's six months in, like she's beyond she's at a stage where she has a lot of glycogen depletion and a lot of serum sodium loss. That might be exacerbating some things, but I agree with you that this is a degree of experimentation that's going to be important and for many people. I used to be this person when I was rounding on patients, I didn't want to be having to run to the restroom every hour to urinate. I was clinically dehydrated probably 80% of the time I was working in the hospital or in the clinic, and so I was able to weather that when I was younger. But now when I travel, I have to be really diligent. I'm the person that fills up 2 meters worth of water and tries to get that consumed while I'm traveling just to stay hydrated, because it becomes such a big problem. 

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting for me, just historically with my experience, because I've done bouts of low-carb versus high-carb, and when I was low-carb, that's when I would struggle with dehydration and also needing to urinate more and stuff like that. But what I do now, which is what I've been doing for a long time, which is like a very high-carb approach, but all fruit interestingly, I actually don't have that issue anymore. I always feel pretty hydrated, but I'm an N of one. So, I just think it's really interesting that people can react differently. But if I were to have high carb from like starches, for example, I would retain water. I would have issues with probably actually feeling hydrated. It's just interesting how I react to different carbs and water storage and everything. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Which she describes as having to get up three or four times a night. That's like an active diuresis. That's the technical terminology of your body trying to get rid of excess fluid. You just start to think about the value of the N of one as you stated. And I can tell for me, if I'm carb cycling the days I go low-carb, I know I'm going to urinate more than the days when I'm higher carbohydrate, which mine are never all that high, like maybe a 100 and 125. But cycling from 50 to 125 over a series of days, it's okay for me because I work from home, so I can manage that. But again, for some people it could be the case of Celia, if she's got a job where she can't be getting up every hour to be able to run to the restroom, it may be that she's really pushing the fluids when she gets off of work, or at the latter stage of the day. That could be why she's getting up multiple times a night as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. One of my favorite foods for gut health, skin cravings, energy, and immunity is definitely bone broth. I and so many of my listeners love bone broth, but it can also be intimidating because it can be hard to find a bone broth that is all natural, organic, free of preservatives, and especially no salt added. Of course, you can always make your own, which I love but that can be of a cumbersome process.

That's why I am obsessed with a company called Beauty & the Broth. They make it so, so easy to bring bone broth into your life because they ship it in concentrated form in shelf-stable packets. It's easy to store, doesn't take up space, you don't have to worry about keeping it frozen. And then when you reconstitute it with water, you can customize it exactly to your taste. It is incredible. Beauty & the Broth makes delicious bone broth from vegetarian-fed, free-range chicken bones, and USDA organic grass-fed ranched-raised beef. The meat and bones come from certified humane and USDA organic farms. No antibiotics, no hormones. They also use organic vegetables and powerful herbs that are so delicious, all without any added salt or sodium.

A lot of the broths on the market are also kettle or pressure cooked, which breaks down ingredient nutrients and reduces their integrity and potency. Beauty & the Broth doesn't do that. They let all of those amazing ingredients slowly simmer for up to 24 hours to create a broth that is super high in naturally occurring collagen and nutrients. Your gut will thank you, I promise. We often get questions about the best way to open your eating window. This is an incredible way to do that. Especially when you're in the fasted state, your gut is super ready to absorb these nutrients. Bone broth contains the specific nutrients needed to heal your gut, help with leaky gut, support digestion, and so much more. And when it's cold in the winter months, what tastes better than a warm cup of bone broth? You will notice it in your nails, in your gut health, in your hair, in your improved recovery, increased energy, and did I mention, it's so convenient and so easy to use. They've also got a vegan mushroom broth, which is super rich in umami and delicious for all of you vegans out there.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Lynn. “Is high cholesterol blood work common with intermittent fasting?” 

Cynthia Thurlow: I would say no. I think there's a lot of different factors. Melanie, I know that you did a bunch of reading and researching on this in particular, but I think for a lot of people, when you're talking about total cholesterol, you can be this. Well, Dave Feldman is the gentleman who's really changing the narrative for clinicians in terms of the way that we look at lipids overall in terms of vis-à-vis diet. And there are certain people that are called lean mass hyperresponders. I am one of them. My body just in relationship to eating a higher protein, lower carbohydrate diet will create more. He usually uses the analogy of boats, like more boats to transport these lipids, but it's not actually pathogenic.

I'm just going to very basically say I don't think there's a direct correlation with fasting and changes in lipids per se, but I think it's largely a reflection of nutritional choices and not per se all pathologic. Like, I don't even worry about the total cholesterol number unless it's low, because that can be a predictor of morbidity and mortality. So, there were a lot of patients that I used to stop their statins for this reason. Melanie, I'm curious, you mentioned that you read some really good research in this area in particular. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's actually a ton of studies on this and I got the sense pretty quickly that I didn't need to read like millions more because the takeaway was the same, which was that people seem to respond all differently, but that it is actually pretty common to see increased cholesterol levels transiently while fasting. And I should clarify, it's funny, ever since, just like we always mentioned Peter Attia, on almost every episode. He had an episode all on cholesterol. He went on a monologue about how because LDL and HDL aren't actually cholesterol. They're the carriers, like Cynthia just said. And he made a comment about how if anybody ever says LDL cholesterol, he basically not immediately dismisses them, but [laughs] questions what they know. I've just kept that in my mind. I've been like, if I ever interview him, like, “Do not say LDL cholesterol.” Do not say, [laughs] like, “Do not say HDL cholesterol.” 

But the point of that is Lynn's question was, “Is high cholesterol blood work--?" So, high cholesterol. That's a big blanket statement that has a lot of factors that are going into that. So, you have your total serum cholesterol, you have your LDL and HDL, which are carriers of cholesterol kind of what Cynthia was just saying. It's like the boat analogy. And then, you have your triglycerides. This is not meant to be a cholesterol entire episode, but there's different implications for what that all means. So, in the studies, literally, I found things showing all different things like in a 2020 trial, I found they found that in Fasting patients with low HDL, they saw that it improved their HDL and it did significantly affect their total cholesterol and their LDL as well. 

And another study, this is of an older study, but it was called Fasting increases serum total cholesterol, LDL and Apo B in healthy, nonobese humans. In their study, they found that fasting increased total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol. I liked this article because it actually went into the mechanisms behind it. They found that the increase in serum cholesterol, LDL and Apo B were all associated with weight loss. They found that fasting did not affect serum concentrations of triglycerol and HDL, which is the opposite of what that other study found. In that study, they actually did a review of a lot of other studies and literally they found all different things. It seemed to really depend on the population, on the sex, on the weight loss or not. So, their mechanisms, they say that these contradictory reports may be explained by sex and or age difference and then some of the things that might be going on is that fasting, especially if it's resulting in weight loss, that is lipolysis, so breaking down and releasing fats. 

They said that could be a reason that people see an increase in LDL. And then on top of that, with fasting, it's possible that the liver actually decreases its LDL uptake so that further can contribute to higher LDL while fasting. Basically, if you go to Google Scholar and just type in cholesterol or whatever one that you want to look at in fasting, there's so many studies, and like I said, it's really all over the place. The important takeaway from it is that long term, it seems to have a beneficial effect on people's lipid panels. So, regardless of the transitory moment, while you're fasting, that might release, break down more fat and result in more cholesterol in the bloodstream, but long term it seems to really help with lipid panels, help with your risk for cardio events. So, yes, that's my thought, is that you might see higher levels, but you're probably having a benefit in the end. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's really interesting because when I reflect back on when I started in medicine over 25 years ago, the way that we look at lipids has really started to shift, thankfully. Looking at these different particle sizes and the inflammatory responses of certain types of densities of LDL and LP(a) and Apo B, and all these metrics that people weren't per se, really looking at so many years ago. I think that fortunately, there are many people that are evolving the way that we look at lipids and benefits to metrics that we look at in blood work for patients. But there are equally just as many individuals that are still, like, practicing the mindset of total cholesterol has to be a certain amount and understanding the cholesterol goes on to be intricately involved in creating hormones. Obviously, we don't want our total cholesterol to be too low. But yeah, it's interesting that there's more and more research being done in this area. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and just a comment, I'm really excited because I love a company called InsideTracker and I haven't done this yet, but they just updated their panel that you get with them to include Apo B. So, I am so excited to get that tested. I'm like so excited. If people would like to get their Apo B tested, as well as a lot of other markers related to their “biological age.” They can go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the code, MELANIE, to get 20% off. So, I will definitely be reporting back about that and posting about it on my Instagram because I don't think I've ever tested my Apo B. Do you test it regularly, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. It's interesting. I have intermittently had it tested over the past probably a few years. I find functional medicine, they're usually the ones that are looking at that, but especially because without oversharing, if you were to just look at a traditional lipid panel of mine, my LDL would look very high, my total cholesterol would look very high, my HDL would look very high, my triglycerides are low. And over many years of having different internists, sometimes the concept of a statin would come up and I knew enough to ask for these advanced lipid analysis and these other metrics. When you would look at, as an example the particle size of my LDL, it was like all light and fluffy. It's the less atherogenic stuff. 

And so, to answer your question, yes, I do episodically get it checked. What I'm encouraging people to do is if your traditional lipid panel looks abnormal, don't settle for that being the one and done. There's more to it than that. I like that there are companies out here now that are allowing people to get that information without having to, per se, have to go through their provider. Even if it comes back and it's abnormal and you still need to bring it to them, that's totally fine. Or if it's completely normal, then it's something that you can look at as a metric to look to determine. Where are you on this metabolic health journey? Are you doing better than the last time? Are you starting to veer off course? What can you do to course correct and keep yourself healthy and vital? 

Melanie Avalon: It is really interesting because I've been tracking my cholesterol, my full cholesterol panel, historically with InsideTracker, so I have a lot of data on it. It's really interesting how it correlates to my diet. So, like, when I'm low-carb, everything is high. I mean, not in a bad way, the nuance that you were just talking about, but the levels of everything is substantially raised compared to when I do my high protein, low-fat, high-carb, everything's lower. It's just really interesting and it's so complicated and so nuanced. I think it's probably one of the most complicated things in health as far as there just being so many different opinions on it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I couldn't agree with you more and it's interesting. We'll link up another podcast I did with Dr. Bret Scher. He's a preventative cardiologist, but also as a functional integrative approach. We talked quite a bit about these advanced lipid metrics. We'll link that in the show notes so that listeners can take a listen to that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, now we have a question from Kim. She says, “Hi. Would you recommend fasting longer and then have a three- to four-hour eating window or fasting shorter, but having two meals, no snacks, and a longer eating window, say, a six- to seven-hour eating window? I'm a 53-year-old female post menopause, exercise daily with walking and lifting. I try to eat real whole foods and want to lose another 5 to 10 pounds than inter maintenance. Thanks so much. Love your podcast and the fantastic info you both share.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks, Kim. It sounds like you're doing a lot of great things already. I think this will be no surprise for listeners to hear me suggest that you have two meals to be able to get in a minimum of 100 grams of protein daily. I would also suggest tracking your macros to know where you are. I just find that most people really are optimized if they're getting two boluses of protein in per day. The other thing that I think is really important is especially because your menopausal getting a really good sense of what your hormones are doing. I'm not sure if you have had your baseline sex hormones, thyroid, leptin, ghrelin, all these hormones that we can have fasting insulin that we can have tested. I'm really looking at those to see if they're fully optimized, because some degree of weight loss resistance can be related to poor quality sleep, inflammatory nutrition. I know that you're strength training, so that sounds like that's really dialed in, but I think for a lot of women, it's looking at the basics and then looking at gut health and looking at things that can be cleaned up in terms of toxin exposure, your personal care products, your environment, your food. 

I know Melanie and I have talked a lot about that, in particular over the last several podcasts, and then also thinking about just the emotional component. I'm in the midst of getting ready to submit a second book proposal, and one of the things I've been really amazed, there's a lot of really good research in this that early childhood trauma, so they call it an ANA score. So, adverse childhood events, if you are at risk for having been through quite a few adverse childhood events, that can put you at risk as an adult for not auto, also autoimmune disorders like Hashimoto, celiac, etc., but can also put you at risk for weight loss resistance. So, recognizing there's a significant emotional component to some of the struggles that we have when we have weight loss plateaus, I think all those things are certainly important. Absolutely two meals in a wider feeding window I think is really helpful. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought that was really comprehensive, and I really like that stuff about the adverse childhood events. So, [laughs] it's what we always say, the importance of protein and everything being so important. Really, Cynthia, it's really been our relationship on this show that's made me pay more attention to that and that a lot of people might need longer windows to get all of that in. So, yes, I would err on the side of eating the window that will allow you to get in all of that protein rather than stressing about having the smaller window per se. Really, when it comes to the food aspect, I think there's so much magic that can happen with your actual food choices, which sounds like you're doing great, you're trying to eat real, whole foods. But I just think there's a lot of magic that can happen with that. Focus on what you're eating in that eating window rather than getting caught up in the nuance of a few more hours here or there. That’s my thoughts on that. Shall we go to some other random AMA questions? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, these are leftover AMA questions that are just kind of all over the place. Here's a really random question from Laura. She wants to know, what's the worst job that you have had? She wants to know, if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you be doing? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, worst job I've ever had was my first job. Many of you probably know I grew up on the Jersey Shore, and working at the boardwalk seemed to be a really awesome job. But I worked at an ice cream place, and so imagine humid, hot weather, and you were scooping ice cream. This is before there was like a lot of soft serve, so it was like getting-- you're literally-- me being five foot three, half my body was practically in this pit of ice cream to scoop it up. I spent the entire summer smelling like ice cream, and I was sticky from my armpits, honest to God, even though I had a uniform on all the way to my hand. I remember I don't think I ate ice cream for several years after that, but I hated that job. [laughs] I really did not like that job. It was very reinforcing, like, “Okay, if I'm going to be working hard and sweating, I want to be making more money.” So I started waiting tables after that.

But if I weren't doing what I'm doing now, I think I honestly would have ended up either this is kind of funny. Originally, I thought I was going to be an attorney, and I realized now I don't like to argue, so I would have been a terrible attorney. I think I honestly would have ended up in the media realm, whether it would have been behind the scenes or being a reporter. I like getting the scoop, I like getting information, which is probably why podcasting appeals to me so much that I get to ask people all the questions that I'm curious about, but that's probably what I would have done. I'm an introvert, so being in front of the camera might not have been where I would have been, but I probably would have enjoyed being a reporter or being a journalist. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. That job does sound pretty miserable. Have I shared with you before my background horror stories? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I've only cried from misery three times in my life and they were all while doing background on TV shows and movies and so the worst experience of my life, I might have shared this story before on the podcast. Do you know the movie, Sharknado? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, [chuckles] so in the acting world, there's union acting. SAG-AFTRA that people might be familiar with, like the SAG Awards. And then, there's nonunion. Well, when you're a background “actor,” so when you're a person in the background of a TV show or movie, you're like the lowest of low on the totem pole. If you ever want to see social hierarchies devoid of empathy, [chuckles] where people are just so blunt about the hierarchy that it's almost shocking, just go to a film set and look at how extras are treated.

But in any case, when I was nonunion, it can be pretty bad. I got a call for this movie and it was a low budget sci-fi film. They didn't tell us what it was or the name or anything. We were shooting in downtown LA. It was in the winter, which I know it's not that cold in LA. But it was like 40 degrees that day and were in like a tunnel. I think it was like a tunnel without a roof. So, it was like a valley thing. It's hard to describe. It was down, so it created like a wind tunnel. Wind was rushing through it and so they put us down there and then they were like yelling at us from like way up high and then they were like, “Okay, so when we call action, we're going to do the rain and then there are sharks and just run away from the sharks.” We're like [laughs] because it ended up being Sharknado. So, they would say like, “cue rain.” And they do “Action,” it would be like a torrential downpour. We had to just like run from imaginary sharks, like over cars, but for 6 hours, like in 40 degrees with wind and rain like soaked to the bone. I was so miserable. I was bawling. They would say run and I was like tears were like streaming down my face. 

And then finally, they pulled out some of us because like a PA came over and was like, I think they might get hypothermia. [laughs] They took some of us and put us into a tent. It was the worst day of my life. And then, what's really funny is then later I realized it was Sharknado. And I was like, “Oh.”

And then, what's even funnier is I became SAG later. When you're SAG, they treat you a lot better. I got a call for Sharknado 2, and I was like, “I can't do this movie again.” But the second time around, [laughs] I was SAG. I was a flight attendant and it was really cool. It was on a plane, a fake plane. The other flight attendant was Kelly Osbourne. [laughs] It was really fun. It was really funny too, because it was the same thing. They'd be like, “Action,” and they'd be like “Sharks.” And we all had to be like screaming. Oh, man, good times.

And then, the other two times I cried. One was doing background on some TV show and I had to swim in a pool for hours. It was also freezing, and I was just like holding the side and like crying to myself. The third time I was crying was I was on Fast and the Furious 7, out in the desert and it was 110 degrees and I literally thought I was going to die. That's the only time I left the set earlier, I went up to the medic and I was like, “I have to leave. I can't do this anymore.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think for a lot like those of us who are not in that industry or never worked in that industry, I think there's this perception that it's all glamorous and you have definitely reaffirmed that it is not all glamorous. So, kudos to you for being wet and cold and pretending to run from whatever Sharknado thing was going on. But how cool about Kelly Osbourne. Was she nice? Like friendly?

Melanie Avalon: She seemed nice. Yeah, I think I didn't really talk to her, but I actually have a really cool video way back on my Instagram because I think for that scene I was in the back of the plane. So, I was like just with my little cart and not actually going into the scene, so it looked like I was in a plane. But you would just hear action and then you just people screaming like sharks, like the lights flickering. I've had so many experiences on movies and TV shows, it's crazy. Like, I've probably been on every TV show. 

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so funny. Yeah, I've been on sets, but it's been like news environments and so that's totally different. It's a little more like serious. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, what's really funny is some of the experiences are so surreal and it's funny because when you're doing background acting, half the time you really just don't want to be there. Some of the experiences are really cool. People would probably pay thousands of dollars for that. When it's happening for me, I'm like, "I just want to go home." I remember I did a concert scene for CSI and it was actually Ozzy Osbourne and I was like in the front row. So, I got to stand in front of Ozzy Osbourne for like hours while he was doing a fake concert. The whole time I was like, "I just want to leave." I knew that people would probably pay like thousands of dollars for that experience. But for me, it was like $8 an hour. So, [laughs] good times. 

Cynthia Thurlow: The glamorous life. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know, I know. What would I be doing if I wasn't doing this? So funny, like you growing up, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. I still think I could be a good lawyer, but I don't think I'd be happy doing it because I think it would make me upset. So, like Morgan Levine kind of embodies-- She wrote the book True Age, and I had her on my show, and she kind of embodies what I would want to be if I was a scientist, because she's-- not to be stereotypical, but I don't know how to say this all being stereotypical. She doesn't look like your typical scientist. She looks like if I were a scientist, what I think I would like the vibe that it would be. She's brilliant and studies aging. So, when I interviewed David Sinclair the first time, he made a comment about how I should come be a student in his lab at Harvard, and I wanted to just die when he said that. I think that's what I would be doing would be, like a scientist and studying longevity and aging, and the goal would be to get a Nobel Prize. [laughter] Aim high. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: So, here's one. Heidi wants to know, what does a day of eating look like for you? Kim really wants to know what is your favorite dinner? So, those two.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, so we'll start with favorite dinner, because that's easy. Like a big filet and probably either asparagus or broccolini and maybe some mushrooms. I keep things pretty simple. We grill a lot of meat and a lot of fish, and that's my happy place. Give me some healthy fats and some meat and some non-starchy vegetables, and that's like a perfect meal for me. I would say that today is a good example of what I eat in a day. I broke my fast this morning with-- gosh, it was like two bison burgers and some hard-boiled eggs, because it just depends on the day. I was hungry, and so I had that along with some cut-up cucumbers that were salted. I go through phases where I like certain foods, and cucumbers are super hydrating, as Melanie and I both know, and they're just easy to put together. 

And I don't necessarily have to do a lot of food prep. And then tonight, we're having short ribs. So, my goal is always to hit 50 to 60 grams of protein in each meal. Today, I was way more than 60 grams with what I eat because I had two burgers and two eggs. So yeah, I had way over that. And then, dinner is going to be short ribs, and I haven't yet consumed that. My kids will probably-- I think they're asking already for some type of a starch with that, I'll probably have asparagus. I mean, for me, there's probably four or five vegetables that I choose between for big meals and then salad whenever I want it. But that's in a given day. That's what I'm going to have. Today has been busy getting taxes prepared and then podcast recording, doing some couple of podcasts of Melanie. How about you, Melanie? What's your favorite dinner? 

Melanie Avalon: So, it's interesting, I have two answers because there's my favorite dinner that I eat, and then there's like if it was my last meal type thing, which would be completely different. Would your last meal be completely different? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, because I would say my go-to is usually steak or like a bison steak or like a fatty fish, like maybe salmon, like a good-sized salmon steak. For me, it's so satiating that I definitely hit those protein thresholds where I'm like totally satiated and done. Maybe if you're asking if I'd have dessert, then it might be something chocolatey, because I love chocolate, dark chocolate. 

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. I love what I eat. When I answer my Cynthia answer, which is it's what I would often eat, like at a restaurant or something. And I do love it. So, when I say my other answer, it's not that I don't love what I'm normally eating, because I do, but it's very similar to what Cynthia said. It really would depend on what I'm personally craving that night, protein wise. It would be like if it's a steak, a bone and filet is my favorite cut. If it's fish, I love going out when they have whole branzino. I love that. I love chilling sea bass, but it's too high in mercury. That would be my favorite fish. But the mercury is an issue. Yeah, it would be that with steamed spinach or something and then red wine, and then probably lots of fruit, lots of blueberries. If it was like a last meal situation, that's when I would eat all the things. 

So, it would definitely be Cajun chicken pasta from Chili’s, which I haven't had since probably high school. Funfetti cake, just all the Funfetti and lots of cheese. I mean, alfredo-- oh, yeah, Cajun chicken pasta is alfredo. Yeah. I love all these things. The day in the life, I think listeners are overwhelmingly familiar. I just eat the one meal day thing, and I eat tons and tons of lean protein, whatever I'm craving, tons of scallops. So, it's usually scallops and then either some chicken or some fish. Lots of cucumbers, and I love lots of blueberries and wine and rinse and repeat. It's pretty much just whatever I'm craving. Then the scallops are with, like, mushrooms and cilantro and chives, ginger, turmeric. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny, I hadn't had scallops in a while, and I just had scallops recently, and it's interesting. It's one of the few things my husband doesn't like, so if I get them, it's usually at a restaurant. And I ate them and I was like, “Okay I think I'm okay eating scallops.” Again, I won't eat them again for six months. But I definitely love lobster and shellfish. Yeah, there's a lot of good things, but my kind of methodology for everyone that's listening, it's usually heavy on the protein. If there's not fat in the protein, then I'm adding some fats and then some type of a non-starchy vegetable, and I'm very happy. Like, broccolini is my current obsession, especially if it's sautéed with garlic and red pepper. It's really good and just superfast and easy. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that made me think I'll clarify. So, my ideal favorite meal that I actually eat, I love at restaurants when they have tartar or carpaccio, it's like some rare meat appetizer or sashimi if it's salmon. And I'm excited, speaking of Valentine's Day, the restaurant we're going to, I think, has a seafood tower. The thing I love about seafood towers is those tend to all be low mercury things like lobster, shrimp, like shellfish and stuff. So, crab. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all good. Someone was making fun of me the other day because I went into our grocery store and they had lobster that had been deconstructed that day. And so, I bought myself half a pound of lobster tail and claw and just put it on top of a salad and ate that for lunch. And it was amazing. My kids were like, “I cannot believe you bought that for yourself.” I was like, “Yes, I did, and I feel zero guilt.” 

Melanie Avalon: That's totally what I would do. Oh, I love going to-- Fun fact, I might have shared this. If you go to Whole Foods and they have the whole fish, they will debone it for you if you ask. So, I love going-- I went on a kick after I had, like I said, the full branzino at some restaurants. I was like, “I got to start doing this myself.” So, I go and get an entire fish for myself and cook it. It's really fun. It's yummy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially tried it because I travel so frequently, and it just makes my life so much easier to have a convenient, healthy option. I typically will take it in the morning after working out or after my morning tea, and it makes me feel like I have so much more energy/ For me, it's all about convenience. I can take my travel packs with me, whether I'm traveling for business, whether I'm traveling for pleasure, I can throw it in my bag, and I know I can make it through security without any issues. AG1 has been part of millions of mornings since 2010 and a part of my morning for the last three to four years. It's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins and minerals, as well as whole food sourced ingredients that positively benefit my energy and sleep.

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So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. These travel packs make it so easy and convenient to bring Athletic Greens with you anywhere. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. Definitely check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's a really fun one from Mary Jane, “What are some health-related things you've tried that you really didn't like or had bad side effects to?” I tried like all the diets back in the day before finding low-carb and paleo. So, all of those, like, the cookie diet, just not a fan of that. I tried being vegan for like a week, did not work.

Cynthia Thurlow: How did that go? 

Melanie Avalon: It was like [chuckles] I remember I did it for, like, a week in college, and I was really excited because I went to a restaurant and was trying to find something, and they had something with Green Goddess dressing, and I was like, “This is so thematic. I'm being so vegetarian right now.” I was starving for protein. I was like, “I need meat.” It was very clear that it was not for me. The cookie diet, as well, was not for me. [laughs] Calorie counting, not for me. I need to feast. Like, I'm such a feaster. Also, so getting up early does not work for me. Like, as much as I want to be a morning person, going back and trying to widen my eating window and doing daytime eating after having done intermittent fasting, nope, not a good idea. Then, lastly, pets are so amazing for health. So incredible but I am not meant to, at least right now, have a pet. It's a lot to take care of, [chuckles] but I love when other people have pets. Oh, yeah and iodine. Iodine, I reacted to that supplement so bad. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Did you? Was it oral iodine or just putting it on, like Lugol’s solution on your skin? 

Melanie Avalon: I was doing the skin, and then I took some orally, and it's the only time that I so obviously reacted to a supplement. Like, my eyes got bloodshot red. I was like, “I can't go to work.” It's when I was a server, I look like I'm hungover or something. Yeah, it scared me. I think it's probably because it made me probably flush out like bromides and things. Did that spark your memory for any of yours? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think the things that I've learned about myself that a lot of other people have been able to do effortlessly that have not worked for me. I would say working night shifts never agreed with me. I'm not someone that does well, staying up late at night and not going to bed when it's dark outside. To the point where I think most of the time that I worked nights as a nurse and an NP, I felt like how you feel when you're, I don't want to say the word hungover, but when you're so tired, you just can't function. Like, I would function in the emergencies, but I would then walk around like a zombie on the days I was off or when I was trying to go to bed when it was light outside. So, say that. Certainly, the things that really didn't agree with me was when probably in the early 1990s when were still bastardizing fat and I just got out of college. 

When you take fat out, you're never satiated and you add a lot of processed crap back in there. So, when you're eating a lot of carbs, you're never satisfied. You're overeating carbs, not eating enough protein, eating fake fats. And I would say that definitely, although I was able to pretty quickly figure out that I do better eating more protein, but certainly not as much as I consume now. I would say that and the other thing that I've figured out doesn't suit me well. As I've never been a drinker, I was never someone that did well. I could have a drink or two, but I was never someone who ever felt good if they drank a lot. So, finally feeling like I'm at a stage in my life where I can effectively say I just choose not to drink because for me it doesn't make me feel good and my sleep is far too important. So, I would say those are probably the three things that I think about that for other people might work fine, but don't for me. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I mean, the night shift is interesting because I think it's really interesting how much clinical literature there is on night shift workers and how bad it is for our health. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting as I'm kind of navigating writing this book proposal. It's interesting to me that when you look at the research on metabolic health, the disadvantage people are at that work contrary to the way our circadian biology is designed to thrive. So, if you're not going to bed at all when it's dark outside, that's a problem. And so, you look at the rates of cancer and poor metabolic health and Alzheimer's and all these things, it's pretty solid research. I think about how many of my peers and colleagues like that was the only option they had, either because they had to work when their kids were asleep and then come home and take care of their kids or whatever their circumstances were. Those are hard decisions to make, but the research is certainly leaning in the direction that it's really profoundly detrimental to your health long term. Like, if you do it for a couple of years, that's different, but if you do that for 20, 30 years, definitely problematic. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Here's a sort of related one. What's a beauty or health product or fat that didn't work for you? I have one for that. Do you have one? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, you go first. I'll have to think.

Melanie Avalon: Eyelash extensions. Have you done them before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, the only time I -- Well, I wouldn't-- it's just when they add a little-- like if you get your makeup done, I think that's different.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, yeah, not like the temporary falsies. I got them done and I mean, they look amazing. They make your makeup routine cut down so much time getting ready. So, that was all great. And for a while I was like, “Oh, this is worth it for the time alone,” because I can just get ready faster. But they're so obnoxious to take care of like, when you're sleeping, I wear an eye mask. You're not supposed to do that. You can't really, like, wash them. I found the whole experience to be very stressful, [laughs] and then I took them off and I felt like I had lost so many eyelashes, and it's hard to know if I actually did or if it just looked I was used to seeing them. But the good thing that came out of that was after that started using DIME Beauty, they make an eyelash growth serum, and it's amazing. And I chose it because it's nontoxic. I can't recommend this eyelash serum enough. It has made my eyelashes grow so long now, like, I think probably better than before the eyelash extension. So, everybody get it. You can get a discount at melanieavalon.com/dime and use the code MELANIEAVALON. It's just their eyelash growth serum. So, I really recommend that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I'm going to share what is relevant because I have a troll on YouTube who's been making completely non-factual statements about me. So, I'm going to just call it out because just like I responded to this person. All of us have facial asymmetry. Everyone has-- like the right side of your face is not perfectly symmetrical to your left. As we get older, sometimes one side of your face may be more expressive than the other. You may have stronger muscles one side than the other. So, I have a very full mouth. I have had that my entire life. 

The reason why I'm sharing this story is to preemptively tell you what one thing I did that I didn't like. I've never had filler in my lips, but I have tried filler in other parts of my face. And so, about 12 years ago, there's this “famous" facial plastic surgeon in the Northern Virginia area, and I was like, “Oh, this is the person I need to go to.” They put some filler underneath my tear trough, so like underneath your eye. I guess he put so much filler there that I got horrible bruising. It made me look like I had perhaps been assaulted. I had to live with my face looking like that for like two weeks, and then it settled down. But for some people, you can get something called the Tyndall effect, which means when the filler is placed under the skin, you get a blue glow hue. And so, I had to have it all reversed. This is why I let the buyer beware. And so, I had it all reversed. And the irony is this troll kept saying, “Oh, you can tell she's had a ton of fillers.” I was like, “Dude, let me explain something to you.” After that experience, it was so negative. I was like, if I ever choose to do this again, I'm going to go to the best of the best, which is who I go to. 

This troll the other day was commenting that, “Oh, I'd had a ton of filler in my lips.” I was like, “No.” If you looked at photos of me, I was made fun of growing up because I had such full lips. The irony is I get accused of something I actually haven't done in a place I haven't done it. For me, the thing that I would caution everyone is if you choose to do anything to yourself, just make sure it's something you can reverse. That's the reason why I was comfortable saying, “Okay, this didn't work for me,” and you can reverse filler very easily. But a lot of people overdo it with filler, and it can migrate, so you have to be really, really careful. So, that would be my thing that I've done that I didn't love. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for sharing that and that sounds really intense. Just to discuss really briefly, the troll thing this weekend actually has been really hard for me because I posted a picture of when I went to see Hadestown, which is a Broadway musical, and all it took was like, one person commenting on my weight, which-- that's a whole tangent about. I don't know, I find it really interesting that the body shaming, there's like a double standard as far as what is acceptable and what's not. For some reason, it's okay to comment on people if you think they're underweight, and I know people are. They try to say it supportively, or most people do, but it just led to a torrential downpour of people commenting on my Instagram and then supportive people were there as well, but just stuff that's very not supportive and very negative. 

What's really interesting is I've been eating the same for like a decade, and it's so funny, like, one person called me that they were like, “I just went back through her pictures from ten years ago, and she looks the same as she did ten years ago.” But I just find it really interesting how people interact with people on social media. It's like because you're behind a screen, I don't know that people would say things to people's face in real life that they would say on social media and then just it's really ironic to me that there's a whole body acceptance movement, but it only goes one way. Like it goes for being overweight, but not if you look thin. And I also think we maybe have a warped perspective because I feel like the baseline weight is so high now that if you are thin or underweight, it looks even worse because we're used to seeing, I think, a higher resting weight. So, I've been having a lot of-- I got to see my therapist this week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, no, no and it's interesting because I think that anytime you put yourself out there, you are going to get people who are keyboard warriors. They would never say something like that to your face, but they feel empowered because you can't find them. What's interesting is it was a physician who couldn't who kept making these comments, and people were defending me, but it was also one of the things I was saying to my husband. I was like I was shocked because generally I try to not interject, but I interacted with this individual saying, “No, you're actually incorrect. You don't know what you're talking about,” because someone said, “Oh, it looks like you're having a stroke.” I was like, “No, you can actually have stronger muscles one side of your face than the other. That's normal asymmetry,” and it's just interesting how the people who put themselves out there are the ones oftentimes that are at greater risk for having people make comments. 

But I think energetically, it's like you just don't engage with people like that because you're not going to change their belief system. They want to believe what they want to believe, and it also invites all of us to rise above that and to just not interact. Like, to me, the adage of, “If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.” I think about my mother said that to me growing up. I always think, like, I don't ever want my comments to be perceived as negative. It's like if I have something negative to say, I'm not going to say it. It just isn't worth it. but if you have something positive to say or something that's going to be helpful or beneficial, I think that's great. Just like it seems like over the last couple of days, there's been an uptick in people making comments and my DMs on Instagram and my team trying to make sense of some of these things. 

The point of why I'm sharing all this is if you don't have anything nice to say, just keep it to yourself. I think that's a much healthier way to be. If there's something constructive, if someone and it's something helpful and constructive, that's very different. I think all of us welcome feedback, but people to be mean and self-righteous just for the sake of being mean, that’s no one needs that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's really interesting. The way I reacted was I tried to answer every person and just with kindness and not defensiveness, just hearts and kindness. It's really interesting exercise, I think, for everybody. It's interesting for me to see how I react and what does that say about my feelings. And then for people, if they do take a lens at why they're saying these things, why, because I think often it does come from personal insecurities and things like that, but I was super grateful for the people who are supportive. I got a lot more supportive DMs because I think people, they like to support that way. Yeah, it's interesting and I don't know, I just find it so interesting how thin shaming is totally okay, [laughs] or seemingly okay. Yeah, so, fun times. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I love all these questions. I think they're really, I mean, in some instances I really have to think hard. [laughs] Like I'll say to Melanie, you answer it first and while you're answering, I'll think of my answer. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think next week maybe we still have some good ones, so we might do one more of these episodes. But this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode304. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. I know we talked about a lot of studies, a lot of things, so definitely check that out. And then if you want to [laughs] join us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. So, I think that is all the things and yeah anything else for me, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. By the time this episode comes out, we will have the creatine subscriptions up, so we'll definitely be keeping everyone post about that. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Yeah, and I'll have the switch to more sustainable subscriptions the week after this. So, the links to learn more about all of that is cynthiathurlow.com/supplements for her line and avalonx.us/emaillist for my line and that's to get updates. So, okie-dokie. Well, have a wonderful Valentine's Day tomorrow [[chuckles] and I will talk to you later. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good, bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by Podcast Doctors. Show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner. Transcripts by SpeechDocs. And original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 05

Episode 303: AMA Part 4, Recycling, Extended Fasting, Insulin Resistance, Electrolytes, Coffee, Tea, Glucose, CGM, Fasting Fluctuation, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast and a Whole Chicken plus $10 off!

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JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!


To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast And A Whole Chicken Plus $10 Off!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

MANUKORA: Go To manukora.com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

15:30 - NUTRISENSEGet $30 and get 1 month of free dietitian support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

19:10 - Listener Q&A: Neva - I’ve been dying to ask, any suggestions on balancing the Fung community perspective of “longer fasts needed to get insulin resistance reversed and for the autophagy needed to reduce excess skin” vs Cynthia’s concerns about longer fasts and especially getting enough protein? This conundrum has been a problem for me.

28:05 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - Is it ok to cycle your fasting times. Anywhere from 14-18
If you consume 10 calories via electrolytes (LMNT) are you still fasting?
Is coffee ok to have while fasting?

For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! 

43:45 - Listener Q&A: Sarah - Help! My fasting glucose is going up! I have been intermittent fasting for over 2 years. I usually eat lunch and dinner and I am low carb. I have been doing my best to eat 100 grams or more of protein daily. I’m 40, haven’t made any huge changes lately. My fasting glucose has been staying over 100 even after 18 hours. In March I had my insulin checked and it was 2, 3 and 5 within two weeks on 3 separate occasions. I would love any advice!

53:20 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

56:40 - Listener Q&A: Natalie - How come some times it’s easy to fast and other times I can barely make it 16 hours. Does age? Cycle? Does/ should Perimenopause change anything about the way we fast. How can we get comfortable fluctuating between 3-5 lbs knowing we didn’t eat that much, yes water weight and bloating, but how can we not let it ruin our vibe. Lol! Random thoughts by a 40-something.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a band of beauty member. It's sort of like Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome, this is episode number 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing very well. I actually have a question for you. It relates to, so I have an announcement and I have something that I wanted to share and it relates to a question for you as well. I interviewed a guy named Matt Simon for his book A Poison Like No Other, which was all about microplastics corrupting our planet. And it was mind-blowing and shocking. But in any case, it just made me more and more aware of the importance of sustainability and not creating waste and all of this stuff. I have an announcement about how we're going to change and adjust how we offer subscriptions for AvalonX products. But I was wondering-- do you have subscriptions for your products?

Cynthia Thurlow: The subscription will start on February 10th and we're really excited since there's been such a tremendous response to the creatine. I don't know if we told you that Mark Hyman featured my creatine in his newsletter last week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Did you send it to him?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I had my second podcast with Drew [unintelligible [00:08:20] last month, and when I was out, I brought some with me just to kind of have in case I was going to give it to someone that I thought would enjoy it. And when we were having an off-camera discussion, he mentioned he had just started-- he had been working diligently on strength training and fat loss. I said to him, have you looked at the research on creatine? He's like, I absolutely have. And so, I said, I brought a product of mine, there's absolutely no obligation. He loved it. He gave it to his sister, bought some, and then they featured it in Mark Hyman's newsletter. I was really surprised and very grateful for that opportunity because it led to quite a bit of people purchasing the creatine. So, yes, our subscriptions are going to start on February 10th and it's really going to be a great way to save on a product that I think nearly every person, irrespective of life, age, and stage can benefit from.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's amazing. Have you had Mark on your show?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. He is kind of one of those elusive characters that doesn't do a lot of guest podcasting. I guess you get to a point in your business I know JJ Virgin and I talk about this that people will get to a point in their business where they just don't do a lot of guest podcasting anymore. And I think that's where he is. And so, to answer your question, no, but it doesn't mean that it won't happen, I'm going to cross my fingers and put that intention out there into the universe.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I will as well. That's amazing. That's super cool. The subscriptions are great because they make it easy for people, but then as far as it's less shipping, it's more sustainable. The change that we're making, which we're still locking down the details, but it should be hopefully around February 20th, I think. We're hoping to switch to right now, people get multiple bottles, so we're hoping to switch to a one-large bottle option. Hopefully, that will be live so people can get the updates at avalonx.us/emaillist. And how can people get updates for your products? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so the easy thing to do is to go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/supplements and you'll be able to get information on creatine as well as a little teaser about what the next supplement will be. I'm technically not allowed to talk about it yet, but we're super excited because it's going to be helpful for brain health, metabolic health, and there's a lot of solid research on sleep support as well.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Just as a cap to all of that, I read that book A Poison Like No Other, which I actually really recommend reading the book or checking out my interview when it comes out because it really is upsetting. I didn't really realize the extent that I knew plastics were bad, but he just has all the stats about really what they're doing, but then what's really crazy and this kind of blew my mind. He danced around this but I was listening to an interview last night that made it even more firm. He talks in his book about how recycling is misleading. It's not really doing what we think it's doing and the majority of recycled products just end up in landfills anyway. Last night I was listening to an interview on Rich Roll with Seth Godin and he just outright said that recycling was created by like that it's just a lie. It was created by industry to make us feel better about plastic. He literally says recycling things into blue plastic bins does nothing. Like it's literally created. Again, I got to research this, but he says it was created by the industry so people would feel better about purchasing plastic because they could recycle it.

Cynthia Thurlow: That would make sense, although very disturbing because I think so many of us have been led to believe that if we can recycle it, then it's not so bad. To your point, I was listening to a podcast of Shawn Stevenson's recently and he was connected with Metabolic Mike, who is the podcast host of High-Intensity Health, which is one of my favorite podcasts to listen to because he really provides research and makes it short and relevant so that people can have some takeaways. They were talking about the contamination theory of obesity as a means for why so many people are struggling with weight loss resistance and why we're seeing such a net impact on fertility rates and miscarriages and changes in endogenous testosterone levels. I think for a long time I was always like, "Oh, it's related to insulin resistance, we're such an unhealthy population." It's really the exposure to these endocrine-mimicking chemicals that is so profound. I really look forward to checking that book out and of course, listening to your interview.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I find it all just so fascinating and things that people just don't really think about, but I'm happy that people are taking it more seriously now. It's funny though, I read that book. I'm so happy, my supplements are in glass bottles, but they have plastic caps. I was reading it and I was like texting or calling Scott, our partner at MD Logic. I was like, we have to get rid of plastic caps. I don't know what the alternative is, but yeah, so we'll work on that.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love how thoughtful you've been. I mean, thus far, I think my second product will also be in a pouch. We're trying to navigate healthier options as opposed to a lot of the plastics that most supplements are contained in. There's a lot of nuances and I think that we just try to do the best that we can, but obviously understanding that we don't know at all and that we have to continue to do the work and to learn from experts that know more than we do. Because I certainly feel like it's not a race, it's a journey to make better choices in things we're exposed to in our environment, personal care products and food, and plastics are everywhere. I mean, if you really just sit back and think about it is everywhere. We just think about it as being normal.

Melanie Avalon: So, fun fact, it's literally everywhere. They're on the top of Mount Everest. According to that book, they're at the top of Mount Everest and they're also at the bottoms of the ocean. So, they're literally everywhere. So, yeah, fun times, fun times. I did get really excited because one of our new sponsors, Manukora Honey, which is delicious, it's manuka honey from New Zealand. When I did the call with them because they have individual packets that they send, I was little bit concerned because I was like that doesn't sound very sustainable. But when I did the call with them, they said they actually had completely 100% compostable packaging for those. So, that was super exciting. People can actually get those free if they go to manukora.com/ifpodcast. So, get some manuka honey sticks to try in completely compostable packaging.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, we talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them? How exercise affects them? How fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time, or give yourself a finger prick, which again is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be a revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun.

You can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more. And you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM, and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement. Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting and so much more.

Each device lasts for 14 days and of course lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or 12-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allow you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends, do you want to be in the world of CGMs? It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. So, definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

So, today's episode, Cynthia and I have been doing our episode 300 became multiple episodes because we got so many amazing AMA questions and we want to keep doing them because they're so fun and awesome and so many topics. We also realized that I think in the past two or three episodes, we haven't done that many fasting-specific questions. What we're going to do today is we're still doing AMA, but these are the fasting AMA questions we got because when we asked for the questions, we asked for I mean were hoping for non-fasting related questions, but we still got a lot of fasting-related questions, so this actually works out very well. To start things off, we have a question from Neva, and she says, I've been dying to ask any suggestions on balancing the Fung community perspective of, "Longer fast needed to get insulin resistance reversed, and for the autophagy needed to reduce excess skin versus Cynthia's concerns about longer fast and especially getting enough protein. This conundrum has been a problem for me."

Cynthia Thurlow: This is a great question, Neva. I think a lot of this really depends on you as an individual. If you are already metabolically healthy and at a healthy weight, then I don't think really long fasts need to be something that you need to focus on over time. However, if you're someone that is not metabolically healthy, that is insulin resistant, I think that doing longer fasts can be helpful for breaking through plateaus. I think that longer fasts can beneficial for helping with cravings. I think it can be helpful for reducing inflammation and upregulating autophagy. I think there're many, many things that we have to consider when we're trying to balance longer fasts and being able to hit our protein macros. I think that when you look at the science of poor metabolic health and you're looking at sarcopenia and you're understanding that insulin resistance actually starts in your muscles, it's important to then also understand that one of the ways that you are going to help with reversing insulin resistance is reallocating those macros, becoming more physically active, and this is a really good example of the need to experiment depending on where you are in your fasting journey. I've started to speak more openly about this that a lot of times people think fasting has to be the answer for everything. Fasting is but one strategy of many that we can utilize to ensure that we have our health and longevity kind of railed in. When people ask me questions like this, it's always in the context of, I need to know more. Are you at a healthy weight? Are you sleeping well? Do you eat an anti-inflammatory diet? Are you menopausal? Are you perimenopausal? Are you still in your peak fertile years? I really would say that the average woman under the age of 35 shouldn't be doing these really long fasts. Our bodies are just so exquisitely attuned to this kind of methodology or really understanding that our bodies are so sensitive to cues that we take from our environment when we talk about stress.

Unfortunately, I think fasting for many people has now become a strategy that they're really leaning into and doing the extremes. They want to do really long fasts, they want to over-restrict macros in some capacity or another, they don't want to sleep, they want to overexercise, and so the way to answer that question is to say, I would need to know more about your personal circumstances to make suggestions. In terms of wide overreaching comments, I would say it's really dependent on, are you metabolically flexible, what life stage are you in, and what are your goals? So, Dr. Fung and I overlap quite a bit on what we lean into. But obviously, for me, I am all about protein and maintaining muscle mass because that will help in insulin sensitivity and I don't per se see that talked about a great deal. Although most of the insulin researchers, including Ben Bikman will talk about this loss of muscle signaling, loss of insulin sensitivity as being the first site in the body of where we become insulin resistant. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I thought that was an incredibly comprehensive answer. I'm so happy that you pointed out the bit about the insulin resistance starting at the state of the muscle, because that's, like, one of my favorites. I have, like, a list of fun facts about metabolic health. That's one of my favorites because I think a lot of people don't realize that they probably think it starts, I don't know where, they probably don't think about where it starts, but it's really interesting that it does start at the muscle. So, yeah, I just echo everything that you said, which I think is just a slight paradigm shift, and I like how you use the word strategy. Basically, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think we don't see longer fasts as the day-to-day habit lifestyle pathway. Like, longer fasting is not your daily life.

It's a strategy to use with specific goals in mind and keeping in mind the context of everything. Your diet, your current weight, what you're looking for, how much other stress you have. Right now, I'm reading Ben Azadi's book because he's coming on my show in a few weeks. He quoted, I think, some research by Thomas Seyfried, who said, for example, that he thinks if you do, like one long, I think he said seven days fast once per year, that it would reduce your cancer risk by 95%. Again, I don't know. I think that was just his thoughts on it. Basically, it's the idea that you could use longer fasts very specifically with specific goals in mind. I think it can have a lot of benefits. But I also think people can go way overboard and in day-to-day practice, yes, getting enough protein is so, so important. While I'm able to get all the protein in a very short amount of time, a lot of people just aren't able to do that. So, I don't think they're in conflict. I think they're actually just separate goals and intentions and uses.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it's important for people to really understand at a very basic level. We're not asking anyone to have to go out and feel like you've got to research all of these different points. I can tell you, as Melanie can after talking to the experts, it's very apparent that if we really understand where insulin resistance starts from, it just starts to make sense about why it's important to as an example, like, "If you're insulin resistant, walk after a meal that really doesn't require you to do anything special. It's just understanding that with each muscle contraction, your body is using up extra glucose. When people say, I'm insulin resistant, I'm really struggling with this. What's going on? It's like, okay, we have to get back to basics. Let's not make it complicated. I think, unfortunately, what happens is that, well-meaning people sometimes make things so complicated. People don't even know where to start. Ben does a great job making things, making more complicated subjects or concepts, making them very accessible for people, so they can then take action. That's really what it comes down to. We want to be able to provide information so that people can make informed decisions and they can make those changes that are going to have a huge impact on their health.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because there's so much information and then there's so much information and context, and yet we still make these blanket binary statements. I don't know if Jason Fung actually said this, but in her quote that, "Longer fasts are needed to get insulin resistance reversed." I'm saying I'm pretty sure you can reverse insulin resistance without ever doing a "Longer fast." That would help, but it's not the only way.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting because someone on Twitter today posted, what's the longest fast you've ever done? My joking response is always 13 days, but not because I wanted to. I think it also speaks to the fact that finding that happy medium like a lot of people in the health and wellness space are starting to discourage these really long fasts because putting in the wrong individual can really put additional stress and strain on your HPA access and cortisol and other things. Understanding that you can get a lot of benefits from shorter fasts and shorter meaning, like less than 20 hours or less than 18 hours. Actually, the longer I fast, the longer I've been fasting, the less I do really long fasts because I just don't feel like I need to do it. 

If you look at, I always think of Ted Naiman as a good example. He's, I think, roughly my age, very lean, and he talks about this diminishing law of returns after 24 hours. I don't disagree with him because you start to think about what are the net benefits and am I losing muscle. Especially if you're north of like 40, 45, it becomes more challenging to maintain muscle mass as you get older if you're not actively working against that. Why would you do all these long fasts if you're putting yourself at risk for losing exactly the organ that is going to help you maintain one of many, help you maintain insulin sensitivity. Ss you can see, I could talk about this for hours.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. I'm all about it. Okay, so some more AMAs. We got some three quick ones from Nicole. One, "Is it okay to cycle your fasting times anywhere from 14 to 18 hours?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, and I encourage women in particular to adjust their fasting based on where they are in their menstrual cycle and I do like variety. Just like we don't eat the same foods every day, we don't do the same types of exercise every day, I do genuinely believe that there is a benefit from keeping your body guessing, not torturing yourself. I'm not asking anyone to white-knuckle it through fasting. That is not what we are trying to suggest, but I do like moderation. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I agree 100%. Some people do really well with I mean, like me, I tend to do really well with more consistent-- I know I do well with a consistent schedule. Although I was thinking about it, actually, I do naturally fluctuate my window. It's always an evening eating window. Like, last night, for example, I went to a comedy show, actually. Do you know Taylor Tomlinson?

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't.

Melanie Avalon: She's a Netflix special and I actually wasn't familiar with her, but my friend had tickets and then couldn't go, so she just gave them to me. It's like okay, sure, I'll go. Do you like comedy shows?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think I should probably go to them more. There's definitely a lot of health benefits to laughing, but in any case, it started early. I open my window with wine way earlier than I normally do, and that kind of bumped everything up earlier. But then I realized I still went to bed late. I was just thinking about last night that my window was open almost double of what it normally is. I'm not super rigid. Like, it has to be these hours between these times. I just go with the flow if things are changing. In general, beyond that, I agree with what you were saying about a lot of people, especially women can benefit a lot from really changing things up and listening to themselves and the effects of their cycle and hormones. So, yes, definitely. The only caveat I would have is, I think some people and I think we talked about this on a recent episode. I do think for some people who are just starting fasting and they've never fasted before, if they're not adapted to fat burning, depending on what personality type they are, they might do better.

And actually, maybe regardless of personality type, there is a benefit to, I think for a lot of people committing to a window in the beginning because you're making those adaptations. If instead just like go with the flow, it's going to be hard to be intuitive. If you're not a fat burner yet and you're not adjusted to fasting. I think having that regulation in the beginning to become metabolically flexible and understand how you should feel when you're in the fat-burning state and while fasting, I think that's when it can be helpful to be more rigid.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Just like, when I'm teaching women, like, I have IF:45 that I run four times a year. We have a group that they're just in their second week of fasting. I always tell them, until you've got the basics down, I don't mind if you are fairly consistent with what you were doing, but when you get to a point where your body is able to utilize either glucose or fats as a fuel substrate, then you're in a position where you can start varying things. People will know that they're at that point when they don't feel like they're white knuckling through the process like they feel comfortable, they are not having headaches, they have plenty of energy. They're not feeling like they have a slump after a meal. Most people will notice that if they're kind of struggling with weight loss resistance or they've been struggling with cravings, all of the sudden things start to kind of even out for them. So, I 100% agree with you, Melanie. You definitely want to make sure you're fat-adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. She has two other quick questions. One is "If you consume 10 calories via electrolytes LMNT, are you still fasting? I'll just comment on that because I just looked up LMNTs, like their line. The flavored ones are the ones that have calories. For example, their watermelon has five calories in a stick, their chocolate has five calories, but their lemon habanero, for example, has 10 calories, it's really interesting, and I'm assuming that is coming from whatever flavoring they're using. Like with lemon habanero, they're using natural habanero flavor, but then their raw unflavored has no calories. So, I do have thoughts on this. Do you have thoughts on this, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: This is one of those nuances that if you are someone who's metabolically flexible, you're at a healthy weight. Taking in calories during a fast technically is breaking a clean fast. But if you are otherwise metabolically healthy and flexible, I don't think this is something people should stress and worry about. I do find for a lot of women as an example, because I work almost exquisitely with women that this is the type of stuff that can add up. When someone says to me, I'm weight loss resistant, I'm doing all the right things, and we start looking at a daily recall and they don't realize that they've got I mean, five calories-- 10 calories is not going to be the impetus for being weight loss resistant, but not understanding that cumulatively over time, these can be some of the things that add up that could be contributing to weight loss resistance.

It's the 50 grams or 50 calories of grapes that they eat while they're fasted or they're having like a fatty coffee or just these things can add up over time. A clean fast definition of a clean fast, if you're ingesting electrolytes that are flavored with sugars or flavored with nonnutritive sweeteners, technically that breaks a clean fast. Again, it goes back to are you metabolically flexible? If it is, I'm not stressing about that nor should you. If you are weight loss resistant, it's something to consider.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with that. I actually think with the flavors, the issue more for people would be having those flavors during the fast, even if it was zero calories because that signals to the body food type stuff, so I think it can mess with appetite regulation. That's why we've always said on this show, historically, as long as we've been working with LMNT, that the raw unflavored, so the one that I said was zero calories and that's one that has no flavors, that's the one that is clean fast friendly. The other ones we would advocate for within your eating window. And so, this is really interesting. I don't know if this is true. I think I mentioned on this show before, I interviewed Steve Hendricks for his book called The Oldest Cure in the World, and it was the history of fasting, and I talked about it.

We're actually probably going to air that episode on this show because it was just mind blowing. I just want to air it first on my Biohacking Podcast. He talks a lot about the work of Satchin Panda in his book. Satchin Panda does a lot of work on time-restricted eating and in particular circadian rhythms of it and things like that. I'm just going to read what he says because I find this really interesting. Satchin Panda, one of the things he did was he had an app where he had people logging their food intake all throughout the day, and he found out what people were actually eating. One of the takeaways was that people think they're eating way less than they are, not amount wise like time wise. People don't realize, most people are literally having some food enough that they're pretty much in the fed state the majority of the time.

He says most people eating and drinking their last calories at 10:00 or 11:00 PM, this is what Satchin Panda found. "Weren't entering fat-burning mode and repair mode until 04:00 or 05:00 AM and never reached anything like exponential burn or repair before they took their morning coffee with cream at 07:00 AM. Panda has found that just five calories, one and a half grapes are enough to keep us in a fat-making mode for six more hours. Which, I find that I don't know that's a big statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Big statement. It's interesting because there are, I have to believe, well-meaning individuals who tell people on social media that's okay if they consume a bunch of grapes, it's okay if they have copious amounts of fat, it's okay to do all these things. I just remind people that if the average person out there is not going more than 8 to 10 hours without eating during the day, to Melanie's point, you're losing out on opportunities to use up some of the stored fuel. Just to kind of keep that in mind that cephalic phase insulin response is a real physiologic response to things that are sweet on our tongue or if our body anticipates we're going to be eating food. Really thinking thoughtfully about what position are you in? If you're really trying to get a hold of insulin resistance or you're really trying to become more metabolically healthy that you want to lean into unflavored element or save those electrolytes that are sweetened, save them for your feeding window, that's going to be a much better option.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think it goes both ways. One, what you just said, where people put this magical calorie like ceiling and say that if you're below that, it doesn't break your fast, which I don't know where that came from. But then on the flipside, I guess I would need the context of what this research was. It's hard for me to think that if somebody is fasted in the fat-burning state and maybe he's talking about they're not yet in the fat-burning state, but if they're deep in the fat-burning state and then they have five calories, I don't know how that would keep them out of fat burning for six more hours. I just want to know what that research was like what was he measuring?

I think it's safe to say that flavors and such are not going to help you with your fasting experience most likely and there's not some magical like if it's below these calories, it doesn't matter. If listeners would like to get LMNT and get that raw unflavored, they can actually get all the flavors free with their order. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast so, remember the flavored ones in your eating window, the raw unflavored in your fasting. Okay, Nicole has one more super quick rapid-fire question. "Is coffee okay to have while fasting?" I'm guessing Nicole's probably new to our community.

Cynthia Thurlow: Here are my thoughts. If you have healthy adrenals and you're sleeping and you're not super stressed out, I think coffee is incredibly beneficial. We know there are polyphenols in coffee that can upregulate lipolysis and fat burning and fat oxidation. Someone who is not completely stressed out is sleeping well and is not in. Now, I'm going to put this out there. I interviewed Dr. Kyle Gillett for my podcast and he talked about andropause, so andropause is when men go through what's equivalent to menopause. But there's also adrenal pause. Our adrenals are not as stress resilient as we are getting older and so coffee in the right person is a wonderful thing to consume in a fasted state. If you're someone who's super stressed out and drinking that coffee overtaxes your adrenals and it pushes your cortisol up, which sends your blood glucose up, that's not a good thing.

I think it's really always in the context of you as an individual. As an overall recommendation, we do recommend bitter teas and coffee as a great option. Now, again, not coffee with cream in it. We're going to recommend black coffee, bitter teas because those are the things that are going to be beneficial. If you don't love plain coffee, you can add cinnamon which will help with insulin sensitivity. You can also add, like, high-quality salt, like Redmond, that can help with the bitterness. Those are two tips, even though I'm not a coffee drinker that I've learned along the way. What are your thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you answered it from that perspective. In my head, I was thinking about it literally just from the breaking or not breaking the fast. I'm really glad that you went there. I agree exactly with what you said. I'll just expand a little bit on the coffee and the clean fast or not. Plain black coffee would be, "Clean fast friendly." Coffee with cream? No. Coffee with added sugar? No. Even coffee with sweeteners. It goes back to what were just talking about giving your body mixed messages during the fast. Yes, I think that context is really important with what Cynthia said about your adrenals and where your stress levels are. Do you drink coffee, Cynthia? I know we've talked about this.

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not. Neither does my husband. The only person in my house that drinks coffee is my 15-year-old who loves espresso.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have caffeine at all?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a lot. It's something that for me, like, I can drink green tea a couple of days a week, and I do make an effort to do that, but I ice it. I actually brew it and then I ice it and then I drink it with a straw. I've just never been someone that loves caffeinated beverages. I think it can be very overstimulating for me although it's interesting, when I did a biogenomics test over the summer, they're like, "Oh, you're very caffeine tolerant. I was like, really? Because I don't feel super caffeine tolerant. Yeah no, I'm one of those strange adults that does not love coffee. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very as alcohol tolerant, literally, but literally in the genes. Caffeine, not so much. I actually was reflecting on this yesterday with gratitude. Like, I was having so much gratitude for this because historically in college I don't even know how much coffee I drank. I shudder thinking about it. I think listeners know this because I say it a lot, but I just have a spoonful of coffee every morning, literally a spoonful of liquid coffee. I was reflecting with gratitude that I'm not addicted right now to coffee or caffeine. I was like, "Oh, I was thinking about it." I was like, I just wake up and I don't really have caffeine. All my energy is pretty much not from a stimulant, which is a nice thought.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's become normal for people to be really dependent on stimulants to get their day going. I think for me, years ago, everyone knows this, I was an ER nurse, and I had to work nights, and I would drink Diet Pepsi, which all it did was upset my stomach. I've just learned that for me, I do better just with water, a lot of water, and I stay really well hydrated. There's a lot of other things I do to kind of get me going in the morning, as opposed to being dependent on a stimulant, which there's no judgment. It's just not the way I like to feel in the morning. It's not my happy place. But you will see me drinking green tea at least four days a week because there're a lot of health benefits from it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there are a lot of health benefits to moderate coffee drinkers. I think if I was the type that could do that and didn't struggle with my sleep, I probably would but like I said, I don't process caffeine that fast, and so it's just not ideal for me. I do like it kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier with longer fasts. It's nice to have it in your back pocket. Like the night when I got up really early for Taylor Swift tickets and was sleep deprived, and I had coffee that day and I was good. It's nice to have it to pull out when you desperately need it, so, yup.

Okay. Another AMA fasting question. This is from Sarah. She says, "Help, my fasting glucose is going up." Oh, and by the way, we really need to answer Sarah's question because I think she posted this in the AMA. I think she posted it on her own in the group. She DMed me about this. She was like, "Please help." So, Sarah, we're going to try to help you. She said, "My fasting glucose is going up. I have been intermittent fasting for over two years. I usually eat lunch and dinner and I am low carb. I've been doing my best to eat 100 grams or more of protein daily. I'm 40.I haven't made any huge changes lately. My fasting glucose has been staying over 100, even after 18 hours. In March, I had my insulin checked and it was 2, 3, and 5 within two weeks on three separate occasions. I would love any advice.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Sarah, this is a great question. I would say without having more information, you're perimenopausal because you're 40. This is when we start becoming less insulin sensitive. That doesn't mean that you are insulin resistant per se, but you are becoming less insulin sensitive. I start thinking about, are you sleeping enough? Is it high-quality sleep? Are you lifting weights? Are you consuming an anti-inflammatory diet? I can't necessarily tell from what you're sharing here. Gut health is really important. I see a lot of interrelationships with really looking at the gut microbiome as something that can impact blood sugar levels. I also think about you know Melanie, I started off the podcast talking about toxins in your personal care products, Food and Environment is another one that podcast that I mentioned was Shawn Stevenson, the Model Health Show, and it was him and Mike Mutzel talking about metabolic health and also changes in fertility and the contamination theory of obesity.

I just think about other things like are you exposed to mold? Are you exposed to mycotoxins? Are you leptin resistant? I mean, there's a lot of different things that can impact what's going on. Just looking at overall labs, like what's your progesterone doing, what's your estrogen doing. There're a lot of different things that can look at this. When you say that you've been checking your blood sugar, it could be as granular as, has your glucometer been titrated? Do you need to have it looked at to see? Do you need to change your strips? There're so many things that can impact why your blood sugar is not optimal. I would say those are good things to look at and just understanding in the context of other questions we've answered on this podcast today, muscle mass is really important. Understanding that insulin resistance actually starts in the muscle.

So, are you doing resistance training? Because I still think a lot of women heading to their 40s are still doing, like, "I've got to go run 5 miles every day." I'm like, you would be better served by getting in the gym and lifting weights three days a week than doing these really long runs. The other thing to think about is we're coming off the tail end of this pandemic, and I see a lot of women who are stressed, and the stress is bumping their cortisol up, and accordingly, your glucose will go up. Really getting granular and honest with yourself about what your stress management style is like, and it's not five minutes of meditation. It really needs to be practice. Things that you do every day, as an example, I get out in nature every single day, walk my dogs, no sunglasses. When I'm done exercising, I get on my PMF mat and that is part of time that I a lot every morning to do those two things in the context of everything else that I do because it brings me so much joy. It's such something I really look forward to because it helps quiet that sympathetic nervous system. So, those are my thoughts. Just based on what you've shared, Melanie, what are your insights?

Melanie Avalon: So, where I would start, and really this is for anybody who's having this issue. What Cynthia was saying about the glucometer, it can be really hard if you're just looking at a single snapshot of a blood test at the doctor, or even if you have a glucometer where you can prick your finger. That's just one moment in time. Like Cynthia said, so many things can affect it. If anybody's struggling to figure out their blood sugar levels, I would 100% recommend doing at least a two-week round of a CGM. It's the most eye-opening thing. I honestly think everybody should feel like mandatory, like life required, that everybody does two weeks of CGM at some point because what it does is it's a device that you wear on your arm, it's painless to put on, and it measures your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid, and it gives you a picture of your blood sugar. Is it every five minutes? Regardless, it shows you how your blood sugar is changing.

With that, you can actually find patterns and you can see is your fasting blood sugar actually high. It staying high or is it dropping and dipping and then going up? What's actually happening? It gives so much clarity to what might be the cause. We love a company called NutriSense and they're actually a sponsor on today's episode. You can listen to that ad for more information, but you can get $30 off and one month of free support from a dietitian because something that's really cool is you can actually, through the app, talk to somebody who will talk to you about your findings. So that can be actually pretty helpful. Just go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST and that will get you $30 off and one month of free dietitian support.

If it is something where a lot of people do benefit from getting a subscription with that because it can be really helpful to go longer than two weeks to really get a good picture. That's where I would start, just to see what the actual data is and then see what might be the factors that are causing it to be high. Because her insulin, how do you feel about her insulin being 2 is low and 3 is low?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, my general recommendation is between 2 to 5. It could be impacted by where she was in her menstrual cycle or a lot of different factors. I love that you brought up the CGM because that can give a much more complete picture. For me, it's like glucometers, just like blood pressure cuffs are super helpful, but it's like at that one specific time, that's when you're getting that metric. I do agree fervently that having a continuous glucose monitor is an even better option because you can then see the real net impact of sleep, stress, exercise, etc., on your blood sugar in real-time, as opposed to having to prick yourself 10 times a day. And some people prefer that. I personally don't like that at all. I'll be totally transparent.

Melanie Avalon: And this is like a really good case study example. I don't know how often Sarah was checking, but for example, she's saying my fasting glucose has been over 100 after 18 hours. Some people will find when they're using a CGM, that when they're fasting, like 12 hours and 13 hours and 14 hours and 15 hours that it's low, and then when they get even longer into the fast because of their stress hormones from the fast, that it actually starts going up again. So that might be a pattern. I'm not saying that's what's happening with Sarah, but I know that's a pattern that people often experience, and that's something where that would be something to address and fine tune and try to make that not be the case. It might be something where you think if you just checked it at 18 hours that it's been high that whole time when actually it hasn't. That's why CGM can just be a game changer. Are you wearing one right now, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I am not. I'm taking a break. I used one gosh 18 months straight. I just got to a point where I'm very aware of the things that will raise my blood sugar. There're things I do conscientiously throughout my day to make sure that I can manage and mitigate a blood sugar response. The foods that did for me cause blood sugar rises that were beyond my norm, like plantains, which is so sad because I love plantains or whether it's gluten-free flowers and a cookie or cake. I just don't eat those things very often. For me, it just has created an awareness of the net impact of taking a walk after exercise. I don't necessarily feel like I need to wear them all the time. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because that made me think of another benefit or something that people can troubleshoot with a CGM as somebody DMed me about this the other day on Instagram. Some people will be fasting and randomly get cravings, like sugar cravings or hungry, and they don't know why. That can be really beneficial to be wearing a CGM because you can see if when you get those cravings, are you having a blood sugar drop or are you not. That can help you kind of figure out what might be going on there. I haven't worn one in a while, actually, I have it in my calendar. I want to put one on pretty soon. It's on my to-do list. I have to put one on when. I actually am dressed up and going out so I can make a reel from it. That's what's been keeping me from doing it. Do you switch arms when you do it that long?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. Left is my preference because I'm right-hand dominant, but I do switch off. And it's funny. I have one more and I've been trying to decide when I want to put my last one on, so I've been debating. I'm like I don't want it to be when I'm away on vacation or if I'm traveling. I want it to be when I'm home so I can kind of get a really good sense of all the things that I do during the day to stay as metabolically healthy as possible.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the timing of it. Got to figure that out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

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Okay, I think we have time for one more question. Lastly, we have a question from Natalie. She says, "How come sometimes it's easy to fast and other times I can barely make it 16 hours?" Does age, cycle, or perimenopause changes have anything to do with the way we fast? How can we get comfortable fluctuating between 3 to 5 pounds knowing we didn't eat that much? But we have water weight and bloating, so how can we not let it ruin our vibe? Random thoughts by a 40-something.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Natalie, this is a great question, and yes, this is the blessing/curse of perimenopause the 10 to 15 years preceding menopause. So, from my perspective, there are reasons why it is harder to fast in the luteal phase when progesterone predominates versus the follicular phase, which is right after you've had your menstrual cycle, and the time preceding when you ovulate. It's much easier to fast in the follicular phase when the estrogen predominates, you're more insulin sensitive. You can go away with harder workouts, you can likely last longer. I spend a lot of time talking about this in my book and on a lot of podcasts, including this one that I'm really a fan of women being very cognizant of where they are in their menstrual cycle in order to ensure that they have a lot of success with fasting or taking a break from fasting.

I'm not a fan of fasting five to seven days preceding your menstrual cycle. You can definitely do 12 hours or 13 hours of digestive rest without any issues. And, yeah, this is why I don't recommend people weigh themselves every day. You can have fluctuations of 3 to 5 pounds due to water, due to macro changes. Did you have more carbs? Did you have less carbs? Have you been exercising? What's your sleep like? What's your stress management like? The last little tidbit that I'll add is that perimenopause is when sleep becomes more important, stress management becomes more important. Lifting weights becomes more important. It also becomes more important that we're leaning into anti-inflammatory nutrition. If you're not already doing some of those things and you're looking to kind of change things up, I would encourage you to lean into those. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: This is so interesting. I almost have the opposite advice, which works well because I think different things work for different people. Because you were saying don't weigh yourself every day.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I think it's like a once-a-week thing. And this is what I can tell you after working with thousands and thousands of men and women over the past 20 years, there are people who have a personality type that they can weigh themselves once a week as a check in. I always encourage people to be very mindful of how do your clothes fit, how do you feel? But there are certain types of personalities. It's not specific to a gender, that it's a control mechanism. Their whole day is they're either having a good day or a bad day based on what that number is when they step on their scale. There're so many things that can impact that number that I always say if you're that type of person and your entire day is a win or a loss based on what that number is, and you're not going to have a good day if you've gained 1 pound, that's not a healthy mindset. So that's where my concern stems from, is do you have a healthy relationship with the scale? Because affectionately, I always say the scale is a liar. It is not a reflection of a lot of other metrics. This is where I will tell people to get their body fat measured, like doing a Bod Pod, which if anyone's not familiar with that, it's a little egg-shaped device, but it'll actually measure how much muscle mass to body fat you have. And that's a much more accurate metric. Actually, my trainer, that's what she uses and that's what I use, I probably do it twice a year. That actually gives me better information than just simply stepping on a scale. Unless you have a scale that is giving you a metric about body fat percentages.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, my answer it actually is similar. It just has a slightly different manifestation because I agree 100% with everything that you just said that the weight fluctuates. There're so many factors that go into it. People can get caught up in this granular number, kind of like the CGM. They see this one number at this one time and they attach all of this meaning to it when it might not be an accurate picture of what's actually happening. I think for some people there actually is a benefit to weighing every single day. The interesting thing is you have to do it for a little bit to start seeing the trend. For some people, if they weigh every single day, tracking it in an app, there's an app called Happy Scale that's really awesome. If you weigh it every single day, it'll show your actual weekly average. You can see your trends over time and you can see what's actually happening. And so, it kind of shows you what your "True weight likely is?" And it requires a bit of data. That's why I'm saying it takes little bit to actually get the benefit from this and kind of change your mindset surrounding it, because when you actually commit and I'm not saying everybody should wear every day, but I'm saying this might help some people, if you do something like use Happy Scale, weigh every single day, after a few weeks, you'll actually be able to see that those numbers that look like you gained weight actually don't mean anything. It'll make like graphs so you can see over time what's actually happening. I think for some people that can really help. Other people might not be able to get beyond what Cynthia was saying, where regardless of knowing the overall trend, they just get caught up in that number. In that case, I don't think they should be weighing every day. I think you just really need to know yourself where you are. I know Gin was obsessed with the Shapa scale. Shapa, have you used that?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: It's the one that gives you a color rather than a number. It's grays to greens. The color indicates if you've, like, stayed the same, if you've lost weight or if you've gained weight. It also uses a similar to Happy Scale, it's going based on your average, not on that weight right at the moment. A lot of people really like that. But yeah, I think just knowing that there're a lot of factors going in can be really, really helpful. She says she's low carb and eating lunch and dinner, but not what she's eating. What you're eating can have a huge effect as well. Even things like sodium content in food and processed foods versus not. If some foods are inflammatory for you that might have an effect. There're just a lot of factors that go into it. I just think having kindness for yourself and this is where working with a therapist can be really helpful as well. I don't know what I would do without seeing my therapist every week.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that you brought up the mental health piece because I think women as and we're all guilty of this, I'm by no means am I perfect at all. I do think that there is a certain amount of grace that we need to give ourselves. I think for women, in particular, women that are in perimenopause and menopause, when all the things that we used to do no longer work well, it can be a huge mindset shift. Like, I'm in a good place now, but 10 years ago or even eight years ago, I definitely was and I was like, what's going on? Understanding that with these changes in our bodies, we just have to make some adjustments in order to optimize our health and wellness. I wasn't even aware of that type of scale that you mentioned Gin liked so much that whether it's red light, green light, or yellow light, I think that's a better alternative to just one metric as a number.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. So, okay, well, we did not get through all of our fasting AMA questions, so we will pick that up next week, and then if we get through them, then we can do some fun AMAs as well after that. Not that these aren't fun, but some other topics. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com they can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode303. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out and then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I think that is all things.

Cynthia Thurlow: It sounds good. For the listeners who've been sending me DMs, we will definitely be answering some hormone questions. We got such a wonderful array of topics to go over. We've been just trying to keep them really well organized, but we will definitely be answering some of those hormone questions too.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

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Jan 29

Episode 302: AMA Part 3, Life Hacks, Zone 2 Exercise, Easy Healthy Food Swaps, Travel, Space, Claustrophobia, Bees, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At Lomi.Com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX SUPPLEMENTS: Get 10% Off Serrapeptase 125, Magnesium 8 And Berberine 500 At avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us!

Check out Cynthia Thurlow's line of supplements and latest releases at cynthiathurlow.com/supplements!

21:00 - MANUKORA: Go To Manukora.Com/Ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

25:00 - Listener Q&A: EIleen - What would consider your best life hack?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #175 - Seth Stephens-Davidowitz

29:00 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - What are some of the other habits or things do you do you’ve maybe never talked about on the pod? Like infrared saunas, ankle/wrist weights, etc. but new ones.

42:30 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - Like switching to Redmonds or more natural salts or single source olive oil, what are some other relatively inexpensive and accessible changes people can make for the better?

DRY FARM WINES: Low Sugar, Low Alcohol, Toxin-Free, Mold-Free, Pesticide-Free, Hang-Over Free Natural Wine! Use The Link dryfarmwines.com/melanieavalon To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

51:30 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

53:15 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What is your favorite vacation and or what’s your bucket list trip?

1:00:25 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Given the opportunity to go to space, would you go? What would you want to study there?

1:05:15 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Do you listen to any non health related podcasts?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret and I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting, aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt, but it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while so you can imagine how thrilled I was, when a company called Lomi by Pela, reached out to me wanting to sponsor the show. Normally, I have to think a little bit about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device. It is incredible. Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around 6-8 weeks and maybe even up to a year. But nope, with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants.

Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours and you can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods, and packaging that are Lomi Approved. There's the Grow mode that's 24 hours. It's low heat with a longer duration and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible. Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with and if you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well, turn your food waste into dirt with the press of a button with Lomi. Use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's L-O-M-I dotcom slash ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the new born. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook Group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

Lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I feel like it's been so long since we've talked.

Cynthia Thurlow: I know. [laughs] I was about to say during the holidays, appropriately so we all take a break from things we do within our business. I was texting with Melanie before I got on, and I was like, we're doing this episode, and this is the format. It's amazing how just a couple of weeks, you kind of feel like you're getting out of practice.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this episode airs end of January, but for us recording, we just started January. How was your New Year's Eve?

Cynthia Thurlow: Very low key. I'll be completely transparent with you and with listeners that last year we were in Costa Rica, which was wonderful. But my boys were pretty adamant that they did not want to travel for Christmas. Because of poor weather, my mom was not able to come as early as she had wanted to and had to leave a little bit early as well. She lives in a rural part of the East Coast, and so they always get more snow and ice. We, the four of us, I mean, I have teenagers, we all stayed in, we had an amazing dinner and then we watched movies and I was asleep before the ball dropped. With the exception of my teenagers, of course, they go to bed. They're like nocturnal animals, they're up really late and they sleep in every day. My husband and I were in bed before the ball dropped, and we've had so many years of really late New Year's Eve parties and it was really nice to just go to bed and have a really nice meal and just have it be low key. Like we didn't have a lot on the calendar and after the book launch and how busy 2022 was and all the travel that I did, even in December, it was just nice to slow down. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine was really good. My sister and I went to a really fun party at the Waldorf Astoria. I love any chance to dress up really fancy, so if there's ever a situation where I can maybe find something to do that, I'm all about it. So, I don't like being out crazy and I don't like loud and I don't like crowds, and I actually don't like-- Even though I'm a crazy late night owl, I don't like being out at midnight. Like, I don't want to be not at my home. It's not normally something I would gravitate towards, but we had a blast. It was good.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm good. I think that's what we all want is if we're going to start celebrating the last day of the year into the first day of the new year, celebrating it, however, makes us happy. I think that's really important. Like, when we lived in Northern Virginia, there was another family, probably our closest friends from our old neighborhood, and for years we would just have New Year's Eve at each other's houses and we would make these incredible dinners. Our boys were all about the same age and we had years where all of us were up till 02:00 or 03:00 AM in the morning just having fun amongst ourselves and so, I agree with you. In my 20s and probably into my early 30s and my teens, I did a lot of late-night parties. I agree with you, as an introvert, I'm completely happy with less people and less noise, and just kind of eating a really good meal and just being around people that I really like.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Very excited for this year and all the things. I feel like there are great things in store.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, absolutely. By the time this episode comes out, I think we're going to have the announcements for my next supplement, which is exciting. I know for you, you just had a new supplement that came out. How are things going with berberine?

Melanie Avalon: So, well. I'm just so grateful and so excited that it's really resonating with listeners and I think it's doing a lot of good and oh yeah, that was something that was really exciting. There were a few different articles that came out over the holidays and one was in Yahoo News. It was like a countdown of wellness products for 2023. It's really exciting to see things like that. I mean, it makes me feel like a real entrepreneur. I don't really feel like a real business woman, but then when things like that happen, I'm like, "Okay, maybe." [chuckles] In a line up next to other, "real things." So, I'm excited. I don't think I know your next supplement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's myo-inositol. So, for listeners, if they're familiar with that. It is a supplement that is very well researched and one that typically we see associated with metabolic inflexibility, insulin issues, insulin resistance, polycystic ovarian syndrome. There's a lot of really good research about sleep and brain health and in keeping with my theme, which is related to metabolic flexibility and brain health, that is the next supplement. I've been taking myo-inositol, it's a bit of a tongue twister to say it, so we're trying to come up with ways to make it a little more approachable inositol. It's one form of inositol. We're coming up with ways to make it easier for people to say, but I've been taking it every single night to help with sleep and I've been recommending it to most if not all of my patients and clients. There's been some pretty incredible breakthroughs not only with reduction in insulin resistance, but also sleep latency, so able to fall asleep faster. If they're waking up in the middle of the night, it's able to help with that as well. That will be the next product that's coming out. It's probably going to be another powder. I'm kind of a sleep stacker. There's usually a couple of products that I will take together and I put this in my water at the tail end of my feeding window and sip on that along with some magnesium L-threonate along with my other sleep stack. This is the first of several products. There will be another one coming out fairly soon after that's going to tie into that sleep thing that I'm really excited about.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Okay, that's really cool. I was familiar with inositol., but if you had asked me, I would not have been able to tell you the benefits at all. So, I learned a lot just now and then I wasn't familiar at all with that version of it, myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting because most of what people think about when they consider that particular supplement is, "Oh, it's great for PCOS" And it is indeed, but it's inflammation reduction and I think for the bulk of our population, which we know only 7% to 8% of our population, and I'm so speaking way outside the context of just this podcast, is not metabolically healthy. This is one of many aspects and strategies that can be utilized and it's really well tolerated. I think that's really important because there are certainly some big gun supplements that are out there where people, they may move the needle a bit faster, but they may also have the issue related to side effects. This is gentle and to me it's cumulative use that will help with sleep. So many middle-aged women really struggle with sleep and it's not just about replacing hormones. There're other ways to kind of layer in support so I'm really excited.

For listeners, you probably don't get the opportunity to read all of the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on with supplement creation, but Melanie has been a huge supporter and has given lots of objective, which is what real friends do. Objective input with regard to product launches and messaging. So, thank you again for convincing me this is the right direction to go in, as opposed to white labelling, which for listeners means for a long time I was white labelling supplements created by Designs for Health as my own. Which you can do legally, but this allows me to completely tailor everything to my specifications. I would imagine that your specifications and mine are superior to a lot of other products that are on the market in terms of what we want or don't want in our supplement line or powders.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. Like 100%. It's so funny because I honestly can say the versions of the supplements that I've made, there's not anything else on the market that I would trust. I wouldn't even take like with serrapeptase in particular, I wouldn't take any of the alternatives on the market. There's some magnesiums and some berberine that I would but it's so nice just with the craziness of the supplement industry to finally be able to make exactly what we want to make, and also to educate listeners about these things. So, I'm just really, really grateful. It's amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting to me. I have always been a proponent of talking to patients about quality of supplements and why it's important to do your due diligence. Even if you go into Whole Foods, which is not a knock-on Whole Foods, you can find good quality things. You can also find a lot of junk. As an example, there was a product that I had sent my husband to Whole Foods to pick up and he's very diligent about checking food labels, but got home and we realized the product had soybean oil in it, back to the store it went. The point I'm making is that you have to be really diligent. What's added to the supplements? What types of oils are they using, if at all, getting really granular and clear. For me, and I know we're in alignment in this, I would rather stack one supplement at a time than have combinations of supplements. There're a lot of good products that are out there that are different types of adaptogens and different types of products, but then you don't know what actually works. Whereas if you're stacking one product at a time, you can determine how do you react to that product, how do you feel with that product before you layer in something else and I think that's very insightful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I could not agree more. That's actually one of my main things as well. It's so cool that we're both aligned with that, the single ingredient thing. Not to say that I wouldn't make blends and like, the magnesium is a blend, for example, but it's all magnesiums. There's so many longevity blends and it's like all these different things or digestive blends and it's all different things. Like you said, "How do what's doing what? And then you can't tailor accordingly. Some of the ingredients might be working for you and some might not and yeah, I'm just like control freak.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well. I think it's also my clinician background because I learned that certain drugs were really efficacious and very effective. Sometimes when there're a lot of medications on the market, as an example, sometimes you can get a blood pressure medication with a cholesterol medicine at the same time, they put them together. Yes, that means someone's taking one less pill, but then if they have a side effect, we didn't always know what was driving it. We had indicators based on what the side effects were, but it sometimes got it harder to tease out. I would drive my drug reps crazy because I was the person that would use single drug agents instead of using the "newest and latest."

I would tell them, well, show me the data that this is more efficacious because this drug cost my patient $5 and what you're recommending is a drug that's going to cost them $50 out of pocket every month and they're on a fixed income. They're retired. For the same purposes, I try to be mindful and thoughtful about what the next needle mover is going to be. What are things people can use throughout the day? Like, as an example, for people that have polycystic ovarian syndrome, the indications for inositol, as an example, are twice daily dosing versus someone that is just using it for sleep properties. So, we're giving people parameters with which to move within, but also giving them, for the most part, single supplement options at a time just so that it makes it easier to add things together. That's just I think ease of use is huge for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned the threonate because that will probably be my next release, which a lot of listeners, actually, who bought Magnesium 8 when it launched. The launch special included a special code for the magnesium threonate. That's a situation where I wanted to separate it out by itself because of its specific benefits for that type of magnesium. Which is, as you're familiar with it, crosses the blood-brain barrier and can really help with sleep and relaxation. That's a situation where it's like, we really want to have that as a standalone so, yeah. For listeners to get updates for both of us, if they want updates for AvalonX supplements, which are mine. They can go to avalonx.us/emaillist or they can text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And when you text that number AVALONX, you will get a 20% off one-time use code, which is awesome. How can people get updates for yours, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: We decided to make it easy because no one knows how to pronounce or even spell myo-inositol, we're doing www.cynthiathurlow/supplement so that people can get on those lists. We're just trying to make it as easy as possible because for this creatine launch that came out, which has been great. Well, by the time this comes out, we'll be talking about where people can buy into monthly subscriptions or every-couple-of-month subscriptions trying to keep it as simple as possible. So that no one's navigating, trying to find it on a website, which we live and learn. We are learning more with each launch. What not to do and what works and what doesn't work.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get free manuka honey. If you know what that means, then you know what that means. If you don't know what that means, I'm about to tell you what that means. So, back in the darkest days of my digestive issues and chronic fatigue and all the things, I was researching anything and everything to try and get my health back. That's when I first came across the concept of manuka honey. I knew honey was supposed to have health benefits, but there was something special about manuka honey in particular. It is a special type of honey only found in the remote and magical forests of New Zealand. The bees actually feed on the highly active nectar of the manuka tea tree, and they make super honey that is honestly unlike anything you have ever seen or tasted before. Manuka honey is a super honey because of its unique antioxidant and prebiotic properties.

Honey in general has those properties. Honey also has hydrogen peroxide activity which can have a beneficial effect on your gut and health, but manuka honey in particular has a different natural antibacterial compound called MGO that only comes from the nectar of this manuka tea tree. They actually measure it. I think it's really funny. They call it non-peroxide activity. The nutrients in manuka honey can help support optimal immune and digestive health. I personally found that when I was using manuka honey, it had an incredible effect on my gut. I became really obsessed with finding the best of the best because there is a lot of controversy out there about manuka honey, and it can be difficult to make sure that you're getting a certified verified source that is actually the stuff that you want.

That's why I was so, so thrilled when Manukora reached out to me. They make manuka honey and what I'm really excited about is they have all of the transparency that I'm looking for. When I did the onboarding call with the brand, I was so impressed with their story, their authenticity, their knowledge, and their mission with manuka honey. Their honey can be traced back to a single origin through a unique QR authenticity platform, I love that. The honey is free from environmental toxins, free of glyphosate residue, non-GMO, gluten free. It's raw and like I said, 100% traceable. They're also a Certified B Corp and something super important to me, they really take care of their bees. The beekeepers actually manage the hive numbers to ensure that the bees have access to diverse pollen sources and plenty of nectar to feed on to avoid any risk of overstocking the bees. They're never fed refined sugar. There's no excessive hive transportation.

The hives don't need to be shifted around for pollination practices. They also help support local communities. Like, I said, I've been a fan of manuka honey for so long, so it's really exciting to partner with this company. Plus, the honey tastes delicious. You can incorporate Manukora into your food choices, into your diet, or you can use it as a supplement taking some of it daily to help support your immunity, your GI health and so much more. Manukora's super honey is available in a range of easy-to-use formats including jars, squeeze bottles, and 100% completely compostable packets. Friends, that is so hard to find so you can eat it straight or add it to your favorite food or beverage. If you head to manukora.com/ifpodcast you'll automatically get a free pack of honey sticks with your order that is of $15 value. That's M-A-N-U-K-O-R-A dotcom slash ifpodcast to get a free pack of honey sticks with your order. Friends. It's called honey with superpowers for good reason. Get on it and try this delicious creamy caramel honey and you won't look back with Manukora. That's manukora.com/ifpodcast for free manuka honey sticks and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

Okie Dokie. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners we got so many amazing questions when we asked for AMA. So, we're just continuing in this vein. Probably going to do this one and maybe one more episode just for a grab bag of goodies of topics, health and personal and all the things. So, to start things off. Okay, this is from Eileen. "What would you consider your best lifehack?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay. I'm going to not say fasting [laughs] because that would be expected, "High quality sleep." It's not a sexy answer, but I fervently believe if you are getting high quality sleep, everything else falls into place. Your blood sugar, better hormonal regulation, better food choices, ability to exercise and have great mentation. I would say high quality sleep is probably the one thing that is foundational to our health and really important. I think that I didn't fully appreciate until I really got into the research, why sleep is so critically important? Actually, as a healthcare provider, it's disturbing that so many healthcare providers are expected to skimp on sleep in order to take care of patients. I say this lovingly, we do it without question when we need to, but when we're telling our patients to get high quality sleep and to go to bed earlier and not be on screens until 02:00 in the morning and we're doing exactly the opposite. We're not mimicking good behavior for our patients, but that's probably my number one foundational element to anything that I do. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That's a really great answer and it's really interesting that I think we frame the question differently. I didn't even think about diet or fitness or physical. I was thinking more in like mental side of things, so that's really interesting. Although intermittent fasting would be a really good answer, I think. Because of just, I mean it really is the ultimate lifehack in a way, because not only does it address the dietary issues that we face today with metabolic syndrome and the obesity epidemic and all these things, but on top of that you also get back time, you lose your anxiety surrounding eating. However, that is not what I chose. [chuckles] I picked gratitude, actually, because I think we have so much fear and anxiety today and stress. I love the concept that you can't be in a state of gratitude and a state of fear at the same time. I really just think it's the ultimate hack for immediately changing your mindset. Like literally, if you're stressed, think of something you're grateful for and at that moment you will not, at least at that literal moment, be stressed and then on top of that just the benefits surrounding it health wise are incredible. Even things like loving, kindness, meditations. I was reading about that in a book that I'm reading right now about the brain actually, and studies they've done on that and its effect on health biomarkers and mental health and wellness and brain health. So, yeah, I pick gratitude as a lifehack.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's really important. Ben Azadi is a good friend and he talks about vitamin G as a way to be thinking about gratitude every day. I agree with you that it is an underappreciated lifehack. It is certainly something that has been played out in my life over the past four years. Anytime I think things are getting tough, I have to remind myself that I have so much to be grateful for and it always allows me to kind of pass-through whatever discomfort I'm experiencing emotionally or otherwise. Definitely something, if you're not practicing that regularly, definitely give that a consideration.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think also linked to it the focus on the present moment that it causes. I was reading about I might have mentioned this on the show before when I interviewed Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, who wrote the book Don't Trust Your Gut, all about data and not him, but there was a study where they had people do an app and it checked in randomly all throughout the day and asked them what were they doing and were they happy. They found that people-- this is really interesting, you're happier thinking about something neutral in the present moment. It might have even been bad. I have to double check. It was definitely neutral then you are thinking about something happy in the future. Basically, focusing on the present moment can just have an incredible effect. I like tying that in as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. It's all good.

Melanie Avalon: It is. Actually, since sort of related, since we're talking about hacks, Mary Jane said, "What are some of the other habits or things you do that you've maybe never talked about on the podcast? Like infrared saunas, ankle and wrist weights, etc., but new ones.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think Zone 2 training is something that I've been very focused on probably the past year in conjunction with regular strength training and then doing Pilates or Solidcore. Zone 2 training, I have to fully admit that my functional medicine doc and my trainer both are really into Zone 2 training. Keeping your heart rate, for me being 51, that means my heart rate is under 129 while I'm exercising. Enough that you can comfortably have a conversation, but you're still exercising. For me, a lot of what I do is walking. I know exactly what cadence, if the weather is bad outside or raining, I can walk on my treadmill inside, and I know exactly where my heart rate is. If I'm walking too fast, I can slow my pace down. Same thing with walking hills in my neighborhood. I'm in a very hilly part of Virginia that, for me, I think has really been very impactful. I probably haven't talked about it because it doesn't sound like a particularly sexy topic. But one that I think most people, if they've been conditioned to believe that doing a lot of HIIT, which HIIT should be brief, like 10 minutes long or if they're doing chronic cardio and they're wondering why it's not working for them physiologically or in terms of body composition whatever it is they're trying to improve. Zone 2 training for both my physician and my trainer is very important, especially for where I am life stage wise. Actually, Peter Attia talks about it quite a bit as well.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny you're talking about that. I was just getting hit with all of these things I've heard Peter Attia talk about who I'm still trying to book for the show because he has a new book coming out.

Cynthia Thurlow: I tried pitching him. They responded to me. I was really excited. I tried very hard because I was like, “I am a Hopkins alumn, I was there when he was training. Although he was in the bowels of the hospital and I was in the ER, but you know what? I just wanted to interject. If you haven't already listened to the latest podcast with him, with the neurocognitive, it's like a 2 hour and 40 minutes podcast, which is super long. I've listened to it twice. I've recommended it to nearly every person I know, non-clinician and otherwise. Really superlative podcast, it completely blew my mind about different types of proteins and how we approach neurocognitive disorders. Really smart female physician whose name evades me because I'm terrible with names.

Melanie Avalon: I did listen. I didn't realize until the very end that she's in his practice. I don't think he mentioned that in the beginning. He might have, I'm so annoyed at myself. I had pitched them early December. And so, when I'm writing an email that I want to be the perfect email, I put in my email address so that I don't accidentally send it soon to somebody else. I realized when I sent it to them, I didn't actually send it to them because I was going back to follow up. I was like, I haven't heard back. I went to follow up and I was like, "Oh, so that explains a lot." So, I just resent it. Did they book you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well. What they said was a very nice gentleman actually apologized for not answering for nine days, which I was like, that's a good sign. I explained the podcast reach and who I am and my background, and how we both shared time at Hopkins and how I was a huge proponent. I said, if there's any way I can support his book launch, that's kind of how I left it. [laughs] They said, "This all looks really good. We'll be back in touch." This is my thinking process, I would imagine when you're at that level, like Peter Attia level, I'm assuming he's not going to be doing tons and tons of press. I think he's going to be selective. Even if I don't get him as a guest, I will still be super, super supportive of the launch. I'm just kind of leaving it out there in the universe that I'm completely open to the possibility. But I will not be disappointed if I am not one of the people that interviews him. I'll just be super excited to listen to him on other people's podcasts. I know he was not wanting to do the audiobook. [laughs] He wanted to have someone else narrate it. I was cracking up listening to him explain that he actually did narrate the book. I was like, "I'm really glad that you did that." But it is, as you as a trained thespian, I'm sure you probably can't appreciate this, but I had no idea how much work goes into an audiobook in terms of just the degree of proper alliteration of words and diction. I actually said to the producer, because my producer was particularly picky, which is her job. I was like, "What do people do that don't articulate or don't have good diction?" And she just laughed. She was like, "They do a lot more recording than you will be doing." And I was like, oh my gosh. So, yeah, very humbly. I just say I'm not a thespian anyway. I'm down a rabbit hole, but I hope that you get to interview him. I will certainly be super supportive if that happens, but I'm kind of, like, cautiously optimistic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have no idea if this is going to manifest. It's like my dream, we shall see.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll try not to fan geek too much if I get to talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: I'm always prepping shows all the time. I have this one evergreen document called Peter Attia, because I'm listening to him all the time. Anytime he says something where I can tell it's a subject that's really random, that he's really interested in and I'm also interested in. And he has, like, an interesting thought, I write it down. [laughs] I have, like, two years' worth of random insight from him that I can tie into the interview.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's awesome. No, I think he's intense and brilliant, and just very intense. Like, my husband now listens to Peter Attia. My husband's an engineer, it gives you an idea of how his brain works. Sometimes he walks around and he's like, "Whoa, that guy's intense." I'm like, "Yup." [laughs] That's who you want as your physician. You want someone who's intense and methodical, it's all good.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So someday, someday. So, my answer is for the hacks. It's interesting, a lot of them I have talked about in the show. I guess I shouldn't say, though, I mean, my exercise related one, or it's not hacks, it habits and things that you do. My exercise one is Emsculpt, but I've talked about that all the time, the muscle building. I can comment on it, that I have started doing different body areas with it and I've seen really incredible effects. I started doing inner and outer thigh and it's kind of profound how it-- I think it does things to you and your legs that you would have to do, I think very specific exercises for a long time to see benefits. I'm loving that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Does it hurt?

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't hurt. You pick the intensity so you can work your way up and you get used to it. It's unpleasant and depending on which area it is, some are worse than others. Like the glutes, those are the easiest. I've been doing those most recently and those are pretty easy. Inner and outer thigh actually are not that bad. The outer thigh a little bit, it's more unpleasant, but they can adjust the intensity and you work your way up.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all very interesting. I know very little about that.

Melanie Avalon: It's incredible. [chuckles] It literally builds muscle, like literally and burns fat and I really see the difference. Actually, that reminds me of something I hadn't written down for this, but I started doing of peptides, which I had not done before, so injections of peptides. I think that's something that's pretty cool because I was having some knee pain. Okay, and then another one. This is so funny. I had this on the list and I couldn't even remember if we had booked them for this show, but I just realized they are actually sponsoring this episode. I did not plan this. I couldn't even remember if they were sponsoring this show or not in comparison to my other Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I am obsessed with my Lomi. Do you have one, Cynthia? Did they send you one?

Cynthia Thurlow: They did not send me one.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'll have to email them. Friends listen to the ad that we're running for them. I'm obsessed. I bought one all by myself for my parents for Christmas. That's how much I love it. It's a composter and I've been wanting to compost for a long time, but it seemed very intimidating and complicated and I didn't want to get into that. When they reached out, I was really excited. This is revolutionizing my experience of my food and of my trash waste habit because I eat so many cucumbers as listeners know. I would fill up these trash bags all the time with all these scraps and everything. Now I just put them in my Lomi every night. You run it overnight, it's dirt in the morning, it's mind blowing. You can use that dirt outside. You can grow with it. They come with these little pellet things that you can put in to make it more microbial rich. Yeah, I'm like all about the composting and it's so quiet, you don't even hear it and it's easy to clean up. You don't even have to clean it that much. I don't clean it in between cycles I clean it, like, once a week, so composting, Lomi.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well. It's interesting. So, the neighborhood we lived in in Northern Virginia, was very strict. They wouldn't allow us, my husband likes to garden, so Todd is like this renaissance man. He kind of does a lot of different things, and he really wanted a composting area in the backyard, and they wouldn't allow us to do that. Now we're in a different neighborhood. They're strict about some things and not about others. I think having a compost, he would be so happy.

Melanie Avalon: It goes inside in your kitchen, and it's like the size of maybe two Instapots together. If you could take the Instapots and make it little bigger or Crockpot and make it twice the size. It's sleek looking, so you can compost without doing everything outside.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so cool.

Melanie Avalon: Our offer is you can go to lomi.com/ifpodcast and use the promo code IFPODCAST that will get you $50 off. Cannot recommend this thing enough. I'm obsessed. So, yes. That's something new. I think I had one that I talked about before in the show, but I just want to emphasize it because I upgraded my version of it a little bit. One last one, it's funny because you were saying that your answer, Cynthia, was not a sexy answer. I have a sexy answer for this question. I don't know if I've shared this on the show or if I should.

Cynthia Thurlow: I was going to share my V Fit, but I'm still in the beginning stages.

Melanie Avalon: Your what?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's called a V-Fit.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It is essentially a device with red light therapy that's supposed to help build up collagen and elastin in your vagina.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Cynthia Thurlow: I just got it. I've used it twice, but Mindy Pelz has been suggesting I do this for a year, and I bought it, and my husband was like, "Oh, my God, you've got to be kidding me."[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Do you stick it in like a tampon?

Cynthia Thurlow: It looks like a dildo.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll take a picture of it for you.

Melanie Avalon: Large.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And it has red light.

Cynthia Thurlow: But, like it's only probably, like, four inches that's inserted inside. It's just designed to be comfortable to hold.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. [laughs] That's cool. I support that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I was going to say, if we're going to talk about that's, probably the most interesting thing that I have recently started trying. But I haven't been using it long enough to be able to give a full report, but I have friends that swear by it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. We should try to get them as a sponsor. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. That would be nice. Right?

Melanie Avalon: I'll reach out to them. My related answer, if kids are listening, maybe pause for a second [laughs] for the moms because I know they're listening with families sometimes with their kids in the car. Mine would be ever since, I interviewed Dr. Stephanie Estima, she had her seven-day orgasm challenge that she said would have a profound effect on your health. And I started that, I mean, that was a while ago. That was probably a year ago. I just kept it up as an everyday orgasm challenge. It's literally because how much I'm a planner and a scheduler, it's literally, like, scheduled in to my life, my daily life.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important, but nothing else. One of the things that I think we've talked about tangentially on the podcast is my PMF mat. It's like I crave it in the morning and now I crave it in the evening. My husband walks in and just laughs at me because I'm lying on this mat and I'm usually got, like, a blanket on top of me and I'm just so relaxing and he just laughs at me. I'm like, "I need 30 minutes of this in the morning." He was like, "Whatever makes you happy."[laughs] I try to do it at night because it's a time that I'm not doing anything else. I'm kind of gearing down, it's so relaxing, and good for your mitochondrial health.

Melanie Avalon: I love it, all the things. Okay, so I had another one, but I think I'll use it in part to answer this next question. This is the lifehack episode. Mary Jane said, like, "Switching to Redmond's or more natural salts or single source olive oil, what are some other relatively inexpensive and accessible changes people can make for the better"? I will say really quickly, "Thank you, Cynthia, so much." Cynthia sent me some wonderful olive oil for Christmas, so thank you. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, I think for me, I'd like to keep it really simple. Like Melanie, mentioned, I sent her olive oil. Let me be clear, it is hard to send Melanie gifts because she has so many cool gadgets, and I couldn't send her scallops. It was literally impossible to do. That was high on the list, and that just wasn't feasible and cucumbers.

Melanie Avalon: So adorable that you were going to do-- just that you thought about that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. So, high quality olive oil I think is really helpful. I do like Redmond's, and for full transparency that's the only salt we use in our home. I also think about using like I'm a fan of make some things from scratch and if you find a brand of product, whether it's a dressing or ketchup that you like, there's this company called Primal Keto. I have no affiliation with them. It's a women-owned business, and they have this spicy barbecue sauce that I use instead of ketchup. For me, that bottle will last months because no one in my house wants it. It's just I like it and so I use that in lieu of making my own barbecue sauce or Chosen brand avocado oil. They do have dressings, which I occasionally will use when I'm lazy. I know you don't like olives. I love really high-quality olives. I am a little bit of an olive snob. Sometimes I'll buy hearts of palm that are already done, same thing with roasted red peppers. Again, like a high-quality brand that doesn't have any chunk in it. Those are the kinds of things I'll lean into like salted macadamia nuts, just things that are easy, single ingredient or little-to-no ingredients that make my life a whole lot easier that are fairly inexpensive. Like nuts are not inexpensive, but if you portion them out and you go to Costco, they have salted macadamia nuts with no junk oils and they are amazing. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I love that. To stay in the food realm, this is a hack I've done for a while, which is especially if you can't afford or if it's hard on your budget to have higher quality meats, I like getting the leaner cuts of meats and then making the fat come from olive oil or coconut oil or MCT oil. You can kind of get the best of both worlds because at least for me, I feel like the majority of the issues with conventional agriculture for livestock, a lot of those toxins are in the fat of the animal. So, if you get just really lean meat, then you can add organic olive oil or organic coconut oil and things like that where that will last longer. I kind of like that little hack. Also, for organic produce, the Environmental Working Group and looking at their Dirty Dozen and Clean Fifteen. So, if you can only afford organic for some fruits and vegetables, then you can choose the nonorganic for the ones that are on their Clean Fifteen and then get organic for their Dirty Dozen. So, I think that's helpful. Also, food still, because she's asking what are some easy, inexpensive accessible things you can do to feel better? I don't think people realize, especially going out when they eat at restaurants, how once you learn how to order, to make it healthier, it's really not that hard. I think people think it's picky and difficult, and you're not going to be able to find something at restaurants. Once you get the system down because it's a very easy system, you can make most restaurants provide a dish for you that will be healthier for you and make you feel better the next day.

The first step is just like for all the meat dishes and entrees. If you're getting steak, salmon, fish, asking that it's not cooked either not in oil at all, or if it is that they use olive oil. Because a lot of them, a lot of the restaurants use vegetable oils and seed oils. That's like a really easy swap that you can make. I always just ask for plain and then you can add salt and pepper, but I tend to go really extreme with that. Also at restaurants, I always just ask for the vegetables that I want and they usually have it even if it's not on the menu. Like spinach, for example. I'll ask for like steamed spinach and even if it's not one of the side dishes they have, usually they can modify. Like restaurants are pretty good at that, so I think that's a hack.

Also, when you're getting wine, when you're out at restaurants, look up all of the wines. I know we're a big fan of Dry Farm Wines around here and really Dry Farm Wines I feel so different drinking it because it's low sugar, low alcohol, tested to be organic, free of pesticides, molds, toxins, all the things. It's the only thing I drink at home. If listeners want a bottle for a penny, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that will give them a bottle for a penny. However, when you are out at restaurants and bars, look up the wines, just type in the winery and then type in organic and Google and you'll find immediately which ones are organic or not. And you'd be surprised, there're a lot of wineries that are practicing organic practices. They just don't have organic certification because of all the hassles and everything with that. That would be like USDA Organic, so backtracking with the wines. If you want to get as close to Dry Farm Wines as possible when you're ordering out, pick European. I usually favor like French and Italian and then look up the winery, type in organic, see if it says that they're practicing organic. If you want to go one step further beyond that to really try to mimic Dry Farm Wines, look up a picture of the label. We'll type in the actual wine and type in ABV, and it might come up with the alcohol by volume.

Dry Farm Wines are all 12.5% or less, so look for ones that are 12.5% or 13% wine. If you can't find it that way, look up the label, you can usually see the alcohol on the label. If you want to go the final step, you can get the Vivino App and look up the wine and see if people are ranking it as dry or not, just taste wise, the you can find ones with low sugar. I've been so impressed with myself. I've gone on quite a few dinners recently where we bought a really nice bottle of wine. It was really up to me to just research and try to figure out which one I thought would be very Dry Farm Wines-esque. Every time it tasted like Dry Farm Wines and I felt good the next day. So, that was a long education about how to order wine at restaurants.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, that's so helpful. The one thing that I would encourage everyone to not feel any sense of guilt. I think we as women more often than not feel guilty when we're advocating for ourselves in restaurants. I actually tell people, I have a seed oil allergy, so they take it really seriously. And it's surprising like you can get your steak or your chicken, or your fish or whatever you're having. I have colleagues in the health and wellness space that do the same. Generally, if I tell people that, they take it pretty seriously. I think seed oils are one of the easiest things to try to avoid or just ask like what is the dressing made with, what are they cooking your meat in or your fish in? It's not surprising that more often than not, they're happy to cook it in butter or they're happy to find an alternative and as Melanie suggested, more often than not they have more vegetables than what's on the menu. So those are great suggestions.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for saying that. About the-- not that it's like standing up for yourself, but it can be intimidating. The main pushback I usually get from servers is they just don't believe me that I'm going to like the way it tastes if I order it that way. I'm like, "Listen, this is what I like. Trust me, I will love it." Oh, here's a hack you can do if you are low carb. We talked about this on the show already. I think you can order an appetizer as a savory dessert. Get like another round of salmon or something. Just let the kitchen know early on. and then just two more quick things

One, Castile Soap. I use Cove Unscented Castile Soap from Amazon. You can use it for so many things. I use it to clean my face, for the dishes. You can make laundry detergent out of it. You can make washing machine stuff with it. But yeah, Castile Soap is incredible. And then very last thing. I've talked about this on the show as well, but I am doing it more and making more and more adjustments. If you replace all of your plates and bowls and stuff with very heavy alternatives, you get a nice little workout every night when you are moving your stuff around. So, I use like, cast iron bowls. I got this cast iron Le Creuset, Harry Potter Casserole dish that I keep my cilantro in because I eat a lot of cilantro. It is the heaviest thing. It is so heavy. It is overwhelmingly heavy. I get cilantro out back and forth multiple times throughout the evening. It integrates some physical movement into your daily life. So, I'm all about the heavy things.

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I'm ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie, or actually we'll drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It's important to note that it's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you're traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out.

Melanie Avalon: Now we have a question from Laura. This is of a different topic and she says, "What is your favorite vacation and/or what's your bucket list trip?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, this is probably one of my favorite questions and anyone that knows me knows that I live to travel. It is one of my favorite, favorite things to do in the world, and I hope my children develop a love and appreciation for travel. I've been fortunate to have been a lot of places. I would say my favorite vacation I've taken with my husband was Rwanda. We've been to Africa several times and I was surprised at how much, I mean, I knew I was going to love it, but Rwanda was so clean, the people were so gracious. Seeing the apes up close was life changing. It was just like one of my favorite vacations.

And then I would say with my kids and my husband, Eastern Europe this past summer. I know Melanie and I have talked a lot about this. Vanessa lives in Prague. I was humbly stunned at how much we loved Prague. We loved Eastern Europe. We were just awed by how wonderful the people were. It was beautiful. The food was great. In terms of what's on my bucket list, I've got a lot of things, and there are going to be trips that we're going to take, my husband and I will take when the kids are in college. We've just decided that some of these trips are just too far and I need to know my kids are in a safe place before I leave. Because it would be too much to ask a family member to be at our home for a couple of weeks. I would say probably top of the list is New Zealand and Australia. My husband did a lot of Asia travel when we were first married, and I wasn't able to go because I was working as an NP back then. We started having a family very soon into our marriage.

I would say, for me, really seeing the highlights of Asia, I'd like to go to Southeast Asia. I'd love to see Singapore and Hong Kong and then go to Cambodia and Vietnam. Those are probably towards the very top of the list. Beyond that, like, Argentina and Chile are definitely up there as well. Those are the ones that the Asia, New Zealand, Australia trips are going to be longer trips so they're also in there. As well as Botswana and Namibia, which are parts of Africa that I've not yet seen but we really want to go to. How about you? I know you're not as much of an avid traveler [chuckles] as I am, but that was one of my favorite questions.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's funny. Growing up I travelled a ton and my family still travels because we have family in Germany, and so we would go to Germany and then we would go to another country. Yeah, now I get it's like my Achilles heel, honestly, I get anxiety surrounding travel, and I'm a lot better now. I'm making baby steps, but it's not my favorite thing. If I could just pop up somewhere and then pop up back in my apartment and go to sleep at night, of course I would. It's the whole everything. Like how it affects your sleep and your digestion and all of that. It's something I'm working on all the time, especially with my therapist. My favorite place, this is even with all of the places we've been internationally, I am obsessed with EPCOT and Disney World. I'm really, really obsessed.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a happy place.

Melanie Avalon: It's so happy. Disney World in general, I'm just obsessed. I would actually just love to go back there. Interestingly, New Zealand actually would be that's the first thing I thought of. I would love to go back to Paris. This is such a weird reason. Well, A, I loved it when went, and I loved seeing the Catacombs, and I loved just St. Paris. I want to go back now when I'm not as intimidated by the world. When I went, I was in high school and I was very much intimidated by like social clicks and things like that. Paris is just the cool place. I would like to go now where like that stuff doesn't matter to me. I just feel that would not be a thing in my head, if that makes sense, I felt intimidated by the city.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny how for me, I didn't grow up with parents that were able to take us on big vacations outside the United States. The first time I left the United States was when I was 25, so certainly old enough to be able to do that. I feel like every decade of my life, I get different things out of travel, whether it's in the United States or outside the United States. Now, I'm at a point in my life where I just notice a lot more things. I'm much more sensitive and attuned to what's going on than I probably was when I was younger, when it was just like, "Oh, I want to go here, and I want to go there, and I want to do this." I definitely savor more when I travel irrespective of where I'm going. I may really sit and pay attention to the flowers and the trees and be less focused on the big things. It's like, suddenly the little things have become the big things.

I hope that you go back to Paris. It's such an amazing city. I always say, I'm such a Francophile. I love the architecture, and I've never experienced Parisians being rude to me, but there's just something very cool about the culture. And to me, I just kind of savor how differently different cultures or different countries live their lives. The Parisians are just much like New Yorkers. There's just a certain je ne sais quoi. There's just such a unique way that they appreciate the way that they live their lives, and the way that they focus in on certain metrics over other things. The other thing that I think I really appreciate when I travel is a lot of the way Americans live is a byproduct of, they have to live in a big house, they have to have a big yard, they have to have a big car. When I travel internationally, I'm like, "I could be happy with a lot less and just do more with my life." So, obviously, that's a very personal decision, and there's no judgment on what I'm saying. When I travel to other countries, I realize most people don't live amongst a lot of stuff. They're just very grateful for the things that they have and that can be very transformative.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love that. You would love my sister. She's a minimalist and she goes everywhere, like everywhere. She's always traveling. She travels everywhere with a tiny suitcase for weeks. How do you do that?

Cynthia Thurlow: You do laundry in your hotel room. We've started doing that, actually. I'm going to London with my cousin, who's one of my favorite people in the world in early February. She's a big fashionista and I told her I was like, "I'm bringing a carry on." That's all I'm bringing. I'm like, whatever I wear, I'm wearing. I'm not stressing about it because checking bags when you travel can be a little dicey. And sometimes it's easier to travel with less and just get your laundry done at the hotel, or wash it in your hotel room so you don't have to worry about bringing too much stuff. That's why I always believe, like, the capsule wardrobe is a thing when you travel. So super helpful. So, yeah, your sister is definitely ahead of the game.

Melanie Avalon: I literally will. If I have to go stay at a hotel downtown overnight, I bring a massive suitcase, so I have work to do there. Actually, speaking of my sister, this is not my sister, but it's the same name. Danielle said, "Given the opportunity to go to space, would you go? What would you want to study there?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, God. I would not want to go to space. I'm admittedly one of those people, I grew up in New Jersey and Great Adventure was very close to where I grew up. If anyone's familiar with Central New Jersey, I grew up at the shore. I did the rollercoasters. I did every probably unsafe, so imagine in the 1980s and 90s, probably not the safest amusement park to go to. I've done it all, but I've learned I actually don't like being that out of control. For me, I would not enjoy not being in control of what was going on. I will leave that to the astronauts and the people that are interested in space travel. I am terribly claustrophobic, although I deal with it. I would not want to study anything. I don't mind studying things here on Earth, but I would not want to go study other people, or planets or things. Because the claustrophobia would be a big issue for me, which probably I haven't talked about on this. I get into elevators and I have to really do a lot of mindset work to not get uncomfortable and sweat because I just don't like having a lot of people in my space. Have I ever talked about that before.

Melanie Avalon: About the claustrophobia.

Cynthia Thurlow: My weird quirkiness about, yeah claustrophobia.

Melanie Avalon: I'm claustrophobic. I don't think we've talked about it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would not be a good space person. I will leave that to the experts.

Melanie Avalon: Have you taken the test? It's like the phobia test. There're two types of claustrophobia. Did you know that? It'll tell you which one you have.

Cynthia Thurlow: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. So, would you like to know the two types? Because okay, this made me so excited because I was taking the test, and there were these things that would list that freak me out, and I was so happy because I was like, oh, my goodness, this is like a thing. It's not just me panicking about this. In the claustrophobia one, it's things like in an elevator, which actually doesn't bother me. Are you bothered by an elevator.

Cynthia Thurlow: If there're too many people in the elevator? Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, see, so that actually doesn't bother me. We probably have the two different types. Then there're things like in a straitjacket, would that bother you?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Okay, so we have the two different types. This one that was on there was made me so happy. Something that will make me panic, like panic is if I am trying on clothes in the dressing room and I can't get the shirt off. Do you have that experience?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I don't think that would bother me. It's definitely, I think to me it's a personal space thing too. I'm definitely very cognizant of personal space again, because I was in patients spaces all the time. So, I was always very cognizant of being in people's spaces. Yeah, when people are too close to me, I'm like strangers. I should specify friends and family different, but strangers in my personal space on an elevator, I don't love that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you probably have the conventional form of claustrophobia. What people think of with claustrophobia, which is being in small spaces. Mine, which I thought was claustrophobia, they still said it is, but then they have like a subtype. It's actually fear of suffocation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh. I don't have that problem, thankfully.

Melanie Avalon: So, all the things that I thought were claustrophobia, like getting stuck in an outfit or being in a straitjacket, things like that or actually it goes back to the suffocation fear. Isn't that so interesting?

Cynthia Thurlow: That is very interesting. I did not know there was a distinction.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, me neither. So, to answer the space question for me. In theory, I would love to go getting there that moment going up, I feel like I don't think I'd be down for that so much. I'm really stressed out by two things. One, the bathroom situation. I just don't think I can do it. I realized I'd have to be carnivore. I'd have to just get rid of bowel movements mostly, and I would not want the effects on my muscles, the lack of weight bearing exercise. I got to wait until we got like a gravity thing going on up there. I would want to study the aliens for sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Of course, you would.

Melanie Avalon: One last thing. This is actually very interesting health fact that I just learnt. Did you know when astronauts go to space, they often get sick? Like viruses and things like that, which doesn't make sense because they're not exposed to other people and viruses. They think it's probably because when people go to space, their immune system goes down for a lot of reasons. Likely a major part of it might be the social isolation and that makes these dormant viruses that we all naturally have in us that our immune system normally suppresses, flare up. Astronauts often get sick from viruses already inside of them when they go to space. Isn't that interesting?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they get a reactivation of the virus. Interesting.

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah, fun times. I guess neither of us will be going to space then.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, never.

Melanie Avalon: Here's one last fun one to end on. Do you listen to any nonhealth-related podcasts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. Although, admittedly not a lot. Actually, when I saw this question, I immediately went to my library to see what are the nonhealth-related podcasts I listen to and so I listen to-- so I guess it depends. Like, there's a continuum. Jenna Kutcher's Podcast, which is The Gold Digger and then Amy Porterfield's Podcast, the name of which evades me, and Mel Robbins, which is more mindset, but I just find for me at the stage of life I'm in, I want to learn so much that I would be lying if I said I listen to those podcasts on the regular.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's kind of where I am. I have four or five that I never miss. There are others that I'll kind of bounce around, like, listening to them. I would be lying if I were to say and it's not that I don't work on mindset. I do, but I'm usually listening to a book, like the mindset books I listen to, and I lean more into those than listening to a podcast around, like, mindset or nonhealthcare-related stuff. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, most of mine are health and wellness. Although, interestingly, I've been listening to podcasts since middle school, and I got hooked on podcasts when I started listening. I don't listen to it anymore, but it was called WDW Today. It was all about Walt Disney World. I lived for that podcast. I would listen to it every single day. I was obsessed with Disney World like obsessed. Now, really the only one is I listen to Joe Rogan and half the time I listen to guests, where it is health and wellness, but sometimes it's not. Like, I listened to one the other night with the beekeeper woman, Erika Thompson. I think it was 3 hours about bees. It was so fascinating. I learned so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I think for both of us, we're very cerebral and we love to learn. I always jokingly tell my husband that if I took out the household responsibilities, the kids, the dogs, and I could just learn, I would just nerd out all day long. He sometimes will say to me, "Can't you just unplug your brain?" [laughs] Just read for pleasure and I'm like, I have one book I've read in the last year for pleasure, really just like a nonfiction book, but I really enjoy learning that actually brings me joy.

Melanie Avalon: I do, too, and that's why I love podcasts. I love learning just random stuff. Did you know, you've probably never seen a male bee?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did not know that. Aren't they the workers.

Melanie Avalon: The workers are females.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? Where are the male bees? See, I don't know anything about this obviously.

Melanie Avalon: They're just there for basically reproduction and when they're doing their thing they have this reproduction swarm hub thing and it's way up in the sky [laughs] and the queen goes up there, it's crazy. I learned so much about bees. Yeah, so all the worker bees and the ones out with the flowers and doing their stuff, those are females.

Cynthia Thurlow: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The book I'm reading right now is so interesting. It's called The Status Games. I just thought about it because it's about how we really judge wanting to have status or wanting to be in a social hierarchy, and we think it's bad. But basically, she makes the case that it's all evolutionary and the reason we have serotonin has to do with hierarchies and social dominance. Oh, that's why I thought about it because she talks about the hierarchies of different species and matriarchies versus patriarchies and it is fascinating.

Cynthia Thurlow: It is. Melanie and I are well suited for one another. We're at different life stages, but I jokingly told my husband the other day, to his horror, I was like, maybe when the kids are done with college, I'll just go back and when I'm retired and get a PhD and he was like, why? I was like, because I would just love to continue to learn. Now I'm saying that and I may decide I don't want to do that, but just like, from the perspective of continuing to learn. I always love learning, but now people have so many options. They don't necessarily have to go back to school. You could just do continuing education. Like, I thought a bunch of classes. There's a yearlong class with [unintelligible [01:09:27] that I signed up for because they were having a big sale. This is one of the big functional medicine schools and I signed up for it and I was like, okay, this is going to make sure I'm getting my continuing medical education. It means I'm learning new things. I'll be able to share with our listeners, all the extraneous things that are floating around.

Melanie Avalon: No. I love it. I love that we have that in common. Well, so much for getting through half of what we had left.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Just know there are so many good questions. I have to tell you that there is one person in particular, is it Danielle.

Melanie Avalon: Who asked like a million questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, but they're good questions. I was like, wow.

Melanie Avalon: We had a lot of really good questions. I posted again because I wanted to get a few more and I was like and were getting a lot of fasting-specific questions, which I actually kept and saved for another episode. Maybe next week we'll do those and then we'll come back to this. In any case, so I asked for some more nonfasting-related questions and this girl Danielle and the group shoutout, she gave us 20. They were amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really good questions. I think she said she was a teacher, so bravo. They were some obviously all great questions. When I read through these, I was like, oh, I've never talked about this on the podcast or a podcast. This is a fun question to be asked.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because I'm looking at our line-up and most of them are not Danielle, but the last two we did were Danielle. Okie Dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Oh, I should mention this was not on purpose. I was talking about the bees. I just realized that another sponsor on today's show besides Lomi, the composter, is Manukora honey, which makes manuka honey. So, listen to that ad as well. So, manuka honey, I first found it when I was having a lot of digestive issues. Honey by itself has a lot of health benefits, has good effects on the gut due to its hydrogen peroxide potential, which is very cool. Manuka honey actually has other compounds that are different from normal honey. Actually, when they measure it, they call it non-hydrogen peroxide activity or something like that. It can have profound effects on GI health, on the immune system.

I've been researching manuka honey for a long time. A company, Manukora, reached out to us about partnering, and I was really excited because I love manuka honey. I had a call with them last week. It was interesting because there's a lot of controversy surrounding manuka honey because people think that some of its fake and there's all these different rating systems, and how do you're getting what you're getting? So, when we met the brand, I was just thinking, please let them be legit and real. I met the founder and talked with their company, and they're so amazing. They're doing incredible things. They're sustainable. They're really passionate about the bees and the honey, and the health benefits. They're just now expanding to the US market. They actually got an Erewhon, which is cool. So, if you live in LA, you can check them out there. Definitely, listen to our ad for them because you can get free honey sticks. You just go to manukora.com/ifpodcast. That's M-A-N-U-K-O-R-A dotcom slash ifpodcast, definitely don't eat the conventional honey. There are some good honeys in the grocery store, but like, the cheap stuff, just don't eat that. I learned a lot in the episode with Joe Rogan about how adulterated conventional honey can be in the grocery store and how it's basically just like sugar, water, and additives and not what you want. So manuka honey, Manukora [unintelligible [01:12:58].

Cynthia Thurlow: As soon as it arrived, my 15-year-old took it out and tried it immediately and gave it a thumbs up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. It's like a honey that you've never experienced. It's so good. Okay, well, this was absolutely wonderful.

If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode302. They'll have a full transcript so definitely check that out and also links to everything we talked about. Because I know we talked about a lot of products and things like that, so that will be helpful. And then You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love this format. I look forward to doing this a couple of times a year.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Super fun. Yeah. we'll have to decide if we're going to try to speed through the rest of them next time or alternate or we'll decide. This has been great and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 15

Episode 300: AMA! Sleep, Whole Foods, Musical Theater, Bloating, Parasites, Botox, Anti-Aging Skincare, Laser Hair Removal, Favorite Books, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 300 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

BLISSYGet Cooling, Comfortable, Sustainable Silk Pillowcases To Revolutionize Your -Sleep, Skin, And Hair! Once You Get Silk Pillowcases, You Will Never Look Back! Get Blissy In Tons Of Colors, And Risk-Free For 60 Nights, At Blissy.Com/ifpodcast, With The Code ifpodcast For 30% Off!

Athletic Greens: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/IFPODCAST.

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

 Listener Q&A: Nicole - What’s one piece of advice you’d give to someone looking to get healthier? 

Listener Q&A: Samantha - I know you are a musical theater fan, what is your favorite musical?

BLISSY: Get Blissy In Tons Of Colors, And Risk-Free For 60 Nights, At blissy.com/ifpodcast, With The Code IFPODCAST For 30% Off!

Listener Q&A: Alani - What are your tricks for keeping your stomach from puffing out?

Listener Q&A: David - Have either of you taken a DNA stool analysis for parasites?

Episode 296: Berberine, Insulin Sensitivity, Glucose Control, Gut Health, Liver Health, Body Recomposition, AMPK Activation, Cholesterol Control, And More!

Listener Q&A: Amy - Loved last episode where you both admitted you color your hair without shame in not using cleaner options. I would be curious what other things are you willing to “bend” the rules for?

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

Listener Q&A: Damon - Laser hair removal, is it worth it?

Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What are your top 3 book recommendations besides your own?

Listener Q&A: Danielle - What is your favorite holiday tradition?

Listener Q&A: Lesley - I work at HOTWORX 24 hour infrared fitness studio. What do you think about a 3d workout? Heat, exercise, infrared sauna?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 300 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I’m about to tell you how you can get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off. Yes, all of that incredible meat, plus $10 off, all for free. We are a bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox, which is always in season. Some of my favorite meals that I had throughout the holiday season were fantastic meat and seafood from ButcherBox. Now with the new year, it is time to celebrate with only the very best of the best when it comes to meat and seafood that you put in your body, as well as meat and seafood that helps support our planet and the environment.

They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that’s really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you’re joining a community focused on doing what’s better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox.

All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished and they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it’s so easy. Everything ships directly to your door and it is so delicious. I love carpaccio for example. The ButcherBox steaks are incredible for that. That’s how you know it’s good steak when you can eat it rare like that and ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience.

You can get the New Year bundle for free, plus $10 off when you sign up today. That’s a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, in your first box. Sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. Again, to get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off, sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. We’ll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 300 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Very exciting milestone episode here. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. How are you, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well despite navigating travel back to small airports. I was laughing/texting with you last night sharing all the insights I was gleaming being stuck in an airport for 7 hours with a long delay. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, were talking about the food options, healthy or not, fasting or not in airport layovers, so I'm glad you survived. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I know it's funny. I'm such an observer as an introvert, like, I just love to people watch. The behaviors that I was watching yesterday intermittently between reading a book, listening to a podcast, reading another book, binging on something on Netflix was just the behavioral patterns. I think people feel a lot of pressure to eat constantly when they're in airports, and I just find that all super fascinating. I think I was chronicling how it doesn't matter what airport I go to. I can generally get a naked burger and a salad and that's typically what I do. 

Actually, the waiter yesterday, it was funny. I got off my flight from LA and Chicago and I was like, okay, plenty of time. I have two and a half hours, I'll be great. I went to a restaurant, got my burger, read a book. I was totally by myself. I was totally in my zone. And then get to my gate and then we realized we've got, like, mechanical problems. I guess pilots and stewards, stewardesses are only allowed to fly for a certain amount of time every day because of the mechanical delay it turned into. We had a different flight crew. It was like a seven hour instead of a two and a half hour time in between flights. I was texting with Melanie and I said, and then, it's not a good sign when United rolls out the cart of snacks. And the cart of snacks was gone in about two minutes. It was amazing. People were clearly, “starving.” But it was hilarious to kind of watch all this unfold. So, I'm just grateful to be home and the fact that I got a decent amount of night's sleep, and it's my last business trip of the year, so no more traveling for a while. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I feel like it definitely speaks to just how much well, A, we're inundated with food and food advertising and accessibility and also how food is really just a pastime. Like, if we're bored, I'm sure people were hungry as well. It's a comfort. It fills the gap of boredom. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I get that, there's no judgment on my part, the psychology behind the way people eat. That's why I always say, like, if you eat enough protein, you're just too full. Even if I had endeavored to eat the bag of Cheez-Its or Goldfish or whatever myriad of stuff they had, I was like, I just grabbed a bottle of water because I was so dehydrated from traveling that I was like, I'll just grab the water, and I'll just try to stay hydrated, and we'll just go from there. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I always fast when traveling. If it was, like, that situation where it was a really long layover, honestly, I would probably still fast. I would probably turn it into a longer fast moment. Just because I don't feel comfortable with lots of food in me and trap. It makes me sluggish and--

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, definitely. I wore-- so people will probably be humored. Like, I've got a whole wardrobe of things I wear when I travel so that I can wear layers. So, I'm never cold, because traveling through Chicago, it was actually the airport was quite cold, which actually wasn't a problem. I was like, okay, I got a sweater. I'll just put that on. I had Spanx, like, leggings on all day because they're super comfortable. They weren't comfortable at, like, hour 18. They were definitely [laughs] when my husband picked me up, I was like, there's too much compression on my stomach and I've been doing a lot of sitting. He was like, “What are you trying to tell me?” I said, “You know how I talk about like there are specific things I wear when I travel. This is not the outfit. If I'm doing more than like 14 hours of travel, there's just too much compression on my stomach.” My stomach was like not happy with me at all. 

Melanie Avalon: I can't wear Spanx at all. That's how you don't have GI issues. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they're definitely different. They're super comfortable actually. It's just that amount-- it would be like trying to wear like, Lululemon tights all day long and traveling. It's a lot of compression on your gut. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, speaking of--

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably TMI. This is a good segue into our Q&A because it's like there may be a little TMI today. 

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners, we really wanted to celebrate Episode 300, quite a milestone. There're a lot of episodes, I think actually for every, well, there's only been two other 100 miles markers. So, Episode 100 and Episode 200. I think for both of those we did an AMA episode. So, continuing the tradition going to do and ask me anything. We got so many amazing questions that we're anticipating. This will probably be a part one, part two, maybe a part three. We'll see how it goes. We got so many really great questions in the Facebook Group which people should join, which is IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real foods + Life. That's my personal Facebook group. I asked in that group for ask me anything questions and we got so many. What I did was I divided them into categories. I think we'll just alternate between more personal ones, more health and wellness-related ones. We'll just see where it goes. I have a lot of questions. I'm very excited about this. So, Cynthia, should we jump in?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, we should. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm thinking we might because I have, like I said, it's by categories, so I might alternate with the lifehack ones and the likes and things like that with the more health related. Here's a good lifehack that's kind of both. And this comes from Nicole. "What's one piece of advice you'd give someone looking to get healthier?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, gosh. I think and it's funny, I was out in LA and I did four podcasts and pretty consistently the one for me is sleep as a foundational element to health for anyone at any stage of life. I would say really investing in high quality sleep and really starting with the foundations. Not necessarily rushing to a supplement, but doing the things that we know improve sleep quality, daily exercise, light exposure in the morning, getting off electronics, wearing blue blockers, making sure you don't eat two to three hours before bed unless you're a unicorn. I think those are the things that I really think about. I think we like to make things very complicated. I always say before you even think about adding a supplement, make sure you're doing the sleep hygiene pieces. Sleeping in a cold, dark room. I sleep with a sleep mask. I keep the thermostat at 65 degrees. In fact, it was funny when I came home last night, it was 69 degrees on our second floor. The first thing I said to my family was, “Oh, we're going to drop the thermostat because I need it at 65.” Everyone was like, “We've been sleeping at a much warmer temperature.” And I'm like, “I can't do that.” So, I would probably say focusing in on sleep first and then adding supplements if you still need additional support. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good one. I'm actually surprised I didn't think of sleep as the first thing. Whenever people ask me what's the most important thing for me to focus on, I think I normally do say sleep. So, I'm really glad you tackled it. I was thinking on the diet side of things and I was really torn between eating whole foods not the store, but like, foods in their whole form, because that's macro-agnostic, but I just think if we just return to eating real food, that can have a profound effect on people's health. I was torn between that and fasting [laughs] surprise, but I actually think I would go the whole foods route.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I think that's really important. I am a huge advocate of saying that it all starts with food, and I see so many people that are quick to embrace the latest fad irrespective of what it's leaning into. I just remind people, if we just keep things simple, focusing in on sleep, eating as nutrient dense foods as you can, I think that's really, really helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I obviously think so as well. I think between those two, honestly, if somebody's not addressing those two things and then they address those two things, I think the profound effect it would have on so many people's health would be crazy. You don't even have to be really specific or do like a certain type of diet, but that combined with the sleep, very powerful. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. Keep it simple. I mean if there's one tried-and-true message that I think both of us discuss consistently is keep things simple because if we try to make too many changes all at once, it's overwhelming. It's hard to stay, I hate to use the word compliant, but that's the easiest way to put it. It's hard to be consistent when you're trying to change five things at once. That's what I think most people do. I mean, I certainly have been guilty of it myself, but pick one thing at a time and really lean into it and master it and then move on to something else. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's the fun one and she addressed it to me, but we can both answer it. It's from Samantha. She said, “Melanie, I know you are a musical theater fan. What is your favorite musical?” 

So, I'll go ahead and answer that. I think I might have answered this on another AMA. This question, I always feel mischaracterizes me because my answer is musicals that, it sounds like a cop out, like, “Oh, she doesn't watch musicals because she's listing,” the one that everybody says, but I promise you I listen to so many musicals. But there's a reason that these two musicals are what they are, which is Phantom and Wicked. They're just so amazing. But then my runner ups are next to normal Jekyll & Hyde and Hamilton. I know she said your favorite, but there're so many, and then I have, like 50 million more. How about you, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: A few of those I've seen. I grew up in New Jersey, and so my mom really prioritized taking me to Broadway, and so I did that throughout my childhood. For me, I would say Rent I loved. I mean, I still can listen to the music Wicked, I saw that on Broadway with the original cast just by complete happenstance.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Okay, I have a question. Oh, I have a question. Did you see it because when it first came out, it was a bomb like it didn't-- Did you see it before it got famous? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I saw it afterwards, it was with Kristin Chenoweth and--

Melanie Avalon: So, there was fanfare surrounding it when you saw it, because when it first came out, it did not take off. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, because it was 2005/2006 somewhere around there, because I was up there for a medical conference, and my girlfriend was like, “We should go see this play.” And I was kind of like, “Okay.” I had no idea what it was really even about. I just saw Hamilton, and I've been wanting to see Hamilton on Broadway for, I don't know, five years and with the pandemic that kind of nixed our ability to do that and that was amazing. To me, I have so much respect and reverence for people that work in the creative arts. I am not the least bit like, don't ask me to sing, don't ask me to act or dance in front of other people. I would be so embarrassed. I'd want to crawl in a hole, but I love to watch really talented people perform. I just have so much respect and admiration because it's so very different than where my zones of genius are.

As I was sitting there watching Hamilton with my husband and my boys, and I was like, “God, I feel so lucky to be in this zone of greatness.” Like, watching these really talented actors and actresses do what they do best.

Melanie Avalon: That is the exact way I feel. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I'm the kind of person, I actually get emotional when I'm watching people when they're really, really good at what they do whether it's dancing or singing or a play. I get a little like teary. It's almost like out of total admiration that I'm witnessing their greatness. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I feel the same and actually, I had a similar experience. I saw the original cast of Next to Normal. It was one of those things where I went in like you to Wicked like I didn't really know what I was going into and then I was just blown away. Ah, love musicals. 

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Here's another one and this kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier, “What are your tricks for keeping your stomach from puffing out? Do you use Spanx for that?”

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I don't generally have issues related to bloating. I'm probably blessed genetically with some of this on my own. Obviously, I no longer get a menstrual cycle, but when I did, when I was sometimes right before my period, and I would feel bloated. Spanx is great for that. There're different layers of levels of Spanx, so it's not all so constrictive you feel like you're going to die. For me, quite honestly, it's finding a balance between protein and vegetables. This is going to sound odd, but I'll kind of layer this in. When I'm eating a very protein dense diet and I'm eating cooked vegetables, I have little to no bloating, but if I go on a salad binge, like, I mean, a lot of raw vegetables, that can sometimes give me a little bit of bloat. I have to kind of moderate that. 

I got most of my bloating quite honestly from gluten and dairy. And now that I don't have those in my diet, it's not as much of an issue. But I can tell you, and I know we have a parasite question in this Google Doc that we're looking at when we talk about parasites. I will tell you about my bloating issues, but generally speaking, not a lot. I think a great deal of that has to do with dietary choices and not overeating. Like, I feel so miserable if I've overeaten or if I've eaten too much food that I just-- I know where my sweet spot is and if I'm kind of leaning into the protein and cook vegetables, I do really well. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, first thing I wrote was just suck it in. [both laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I mean, here's the other thing before you say the next thing. A lot of people when they talk about bloating, it's really not bloating. It's because their core is not very strong. So, again, I think some of this is just probably innately how I was made. I've always had a pretty strong core and I've always done Pilates. I've always done a lot of core focused work. If you think about your rectus abdominis and your obliques and all these muscles that work together to kind of hold you in and hold you up, if they're not strong, that can contribute to people perceiving that they're having bloating, when it's really just they have muscles that need a little bit of work, if that helps. 

Melanie Avalon: So that's interesting. That writes me of two things. One, I have this childhood memory, I don't know how old I was, I was probably like nine or ten and some aunt commented on my stomach sticking out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, well, sometimes kids have like lordosis and it's not even that their stomach sticking out, it's they have like a swayed lower back. It has nothing to do with the belly sticking out.

Melanie Avalon: That's what the aunt said. She was like, “Oh, this runs in the family or something.” But do you know how traumatic that is to be told that.

Cynthia Thurlow: People sometimes are thoughtless. I just don't realize they're filters off. It's like you could have said that or just not said that and we would have all been okay.

Melanie Avalon: Not to like a nine or ten-year-old, but what's interesting is, I think this is a fun little also lifehack, I feel like a good way to get a good core workout. So, I saw Trans-Siberian Orchestra recently. I realized I have my crazy concert outfit, which is like this really massive spark-- It looks like a dress, but not really because it's a two-piece, so it's like midriff bearing and then it's this massive sparkly dress. You can see it on my Instagram. It's incredible. In any case, I feel like it's a good hack to get a stomach workout if you wear something like that out, because then you're consciously holding in your stomach, like the entire time, unless you forget. But my first tip was just suck it in.

My second tip [laughs] was based on the digestion and finding the diet that works for you. For me, digestive enzymes are game changers for that. Finding a digestive enzyme supplement that works might help. Also, like Cynthia was saying finding the dietary combination a lot of people-- for me low FODMAP works really well and that keeps me not bloated. Also, oh, here's one. If you go carnivore for a lot of people your stomach will probably get very flat. I experienced that. Whenever I do experiment with a time of just meat, there's zero bloating. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, when and if we get to the parasite question in this episode, we can talk about this because that's how I knew something was very wrong and very, very wrong. I always say going back to an anti-inflammatory, like a real anti-inflammatory diet can sometimes be partial carnivore or carnivore for a couple of weeks can really be hugely impactful. But I always say just perceiving you have bloating is very different than looking six months pregnant bloating. There's that continuum that I think is important to identify. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm starting to think this might be like a four-part episode. It'll be like the AMA month. It'll be like January, the AMA month. [laughs] Okay, so, David, "Have either of you taken a DNA stool analysis for parasites?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, multiple times. I have had parasites, more benign parasites, like Blastocystis, which is very common. Let me just back up and say, it is very common to see parasites even in first world countries. Don't think that, oh, you haven't traveled, there's no way you've been exposed. It's really more about exposure and susceptibility. I think that the really exciting story to share is my Morocco tales, because that's where I got the worst food poisoning of my life. I had probably an acute parasite issue that morphed into a fairly significant parasite issue and we believe is a reason why I ended up developing a ruptured appendix and being so sick and necessitated. So, let me back up further and say that you can have an acute reaction to a parasite infestation and then you can have chronic parasitic infections. I have had both and the second one was harder to tease out. 

But I'm grateful that I have amazing colleagues who, as soon as I told them my symptoms, they were like, you definitely have X. I kept saying, “No, no I've done a GI map and it didn't show it.” And I ended up going through a parasite expert who puts your stool, your poop in a slide and looks at it under a microscope. Microscopy, which is pretty important, and I indeed had two parasites, and I had Candida and I had E. coli. Within one dose of antibiotics, I felt like a different person. There was no question there was something wrong with my gut because I had tremendous bloating. By the end of the day, I looked six months' pregnant, which is a problem because there's no way I'm pregnant. I had horrible, horrible gas, like, distinctively bad foul-smelling gas, and I just didn't feel good.

It didn't matter how much I slept, what I ate. It was like as soon as I ate it started this whole bloating, gas, loose stools situation that went on for probably a month until I had gotten the stool results back. It was actually an expensive test that's done out of a lab in New Mexico, But for me, life changing. I didn't want to go on it. I literally had to take one day of one antibiotic to kill this thing. I was so grateful that I had something that could treat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what antibiotic it was? 

Cynthia Thurlow: As I am saying this. So, this is Giardia. Giardia is generally transmitted in water. If you have like, as an example, doesn't mean everyone has a well. If you are exposed to contaminated water or people that have Giardia and they don't wash their hands after they go to the bathroom, you can get exposed to it. So, I took tinidazole. It's T-I-N-I-D-A-Z-O-L-E. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. It only took one and it knocks it out? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's like a large bolus of antibiotic. My husband had to be treated, too, even though we didn't test him. Parasites can be transmitted in saliva and sexually. I've done a lot of interesting international travel and this female physician friend of mine was adamant, as soon as I talked to her, she was like, I don't even need to test you, you have Giardia, but I didn't just have Giardia. I had another friend too, [laughs] so it was pretty disgusting. It was like literally one dose of medication and the next day I felt 1000% better. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Aren't you glad you asked it? I saw that question and I was like I will be happy to answer that question because conventional testing for ova and parasites does not always pick this up. Even the GI Map, which I clinically believe is a really really good test, never picked this up. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's one of the things. Because I've done parasite stool testing, I mean, probably multiple times. Honestly, I know some of them have been negative. I don't even remember if some of them pick something up. I just remember at one point I was working with a practitioner and it came back negative. But then he was like, “All your symptoms match parasites.” And he said most people have parasites. He had me do a course of Alinia, are you familiar with that one? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I am not personally, but only because I myself have not written a script for it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. He said that it was like a game-changing anti-parasite drug that revolutionized so many of his patients and it probably helped. It was during the time when I was at a really not feeling well place health wise, so I don't really know what was doing what, but I did do that. I also have done, I've talked about on the show before, have you taken Mimosa pudica? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. I've taken a lot of stuff, but I've not taken that. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Cynthia, and listeners, I know they've heard me talk about it before. Okay, this stuff, I should probably do another round of it. So, it doesn't kill anything. So, you don't get detox effects because it's not making anything angry. It's a very sticky gelatinous, something from some tree or something. The thing that's confusing about it and the reason I'm being so hesitant, like you can look it up, people have pictures. If you put it in water, you'll see that it forms a really long mucusy string. So, you end up passing that regardless. It's going to look like you're passing parasites regardless because it just looks like that after it comes out of you. But it will grab things and I swear to you, [laughs] the things that have come out by taking that were shocking to the point where I was like, I can't keep taking this is too scary. 

And that's the response. There are like groups dedicated to this basically, but it's super cheap. You can get on Amazon, Mimosa pudica and maybe I should make this someday. It's crazy, that's all I can say. It's crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think what's interesting as a traditionally trained provider, it's always amazing to me that there are a lot of herbs and antimicrobials including berberine as an example. It's a potent antimicrobial that can be very effective at getting rid of pathogens and they don't have the same detrimental impact on the gut microbiome that traditional antibiotics do. Let me be clear, there was no other option for me. There was no antimicrobial that was going to kill what I had because it was so substantial and significant. I'm like, I will be forever grateful that I got some validation. But having said that, it's just nice to know that there's a lot out there that we're still learning about herbs and other potent combinations of different ingredients that can be very beneficial at killing off what does not belong. If you need antibiotics to kill off what does not belong, there is no shame in that either. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think the thing I really want to emphasize about Mimosa is it's not killing anything. It's literally just physically grabbing stuff out of you. That's why people don't get the detox effects like I mentioned. That's why you can actually see an entire thing. It's crazy. [laughs] It's for parasites specifically. Yes, I agree 100% with what you're saying about. There are so many options and alternatives out there and it's nice that there's more and more awareness about it. Especially like with the berberine, people think about that primarily for blood sugar control. We talk about this in Episode 296 with Scott Emmens, I'll put a link to it. It was actually first used in 3000 BC, which is so long ago, and not for blood sugar control. They didn't even know that was a thing back then, but for gut inflammation and yeah, GI health, so crazy.

That actually reminds me of another question on here because I'm not saying antibiotics are bad, but they're definitely something where, there's a cost benefit and we don't want to be inundating ourselves with antibiotics 24/7, but we take them when necessary and they can be life changing like you said. Sort of in that vein, but not really because we don't really have anti-antibiotic rule. But this question is from Amy. She says, “I love the last episode where you both admitted you color your hair without shame [laughs] and not using cleaner options. I would be curious, what other things are you willing to "Bend the rules for?"”

Cynthia Thurlow: I'd probably say, like, if I go to a nice spa, there's an organic one in my area and I know what they use because we have conversations. But if someone takes me for a nice massage or I'm being treated to spa treatments, I do not micromanage what they're using on me because I will then not relax and enjoy myself. I'd probably say things that are leaning into pampering that are like gifts or they're just an experience. It's like I have to kind of readjust my expectations because if I start asking, then I'm going to be hyper focused on everything that's being used and that's actually not a lot of fun. I would probably say that is the other thing that I'm probably-- in that context, I'm probably very laid back versus what I purchase to use on my body at home. Very different. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. When I go to massage or I get my nails done, I always bring my own stuff, [laughs] actually, and that's good for a question later. I used to think it would be cumbersome, but I mean, I have to be always doing my nails because of my Instagram and stuff like that. There's this one oil, I can put a link to it on Amazon. It's an MCT oil, basically, but it's a massage MCT oil, but it's just organic MCT. You can use it for everything. So, when I get a massage, I bring it with me and they don't care. When I get a manicure, it actually makes it cheaper because then I bring that and I don't have to get all the fancy upgrades and I give them that and I just let them use that for all of the lotion and everything and anything else massage oil wise. And then I got so excited because up until recently, I was having to have them use the scrubs that they have there, but over the holidays, Beautycounter came out with a limited edition scrub and a body polish.

Cynthia Thurlow: I have that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so good. So, for instance, if they still have that, because they tend to have it past the holidays stock up on it. I stocked up on it. So now I actually bring that-- It's one of the gift sets. Now I actually bring that with me to the nail salon as well. My other things that I bend the rules on, well, with wine at home I only drink, Dry Farm Wines. If I'm going out, I look up people know I do this, I look up every single wine and I find the organic ones and that's how I decide. I really want to make an app for this, by the way, so stay tuned. I should make that a goal for 2023 to get this app out there. If I am at a place and there's no organic wine, I will drink nonorganic wine. [laughs] 

I don't enjoy that, but I will. People know I do Emsculpt religiously. I love it. I am very concerned about the amount of radiation that it gives your body, but I think the benefits that I get from it as far as building muscle are amazing. I don't do it on my abs. People ask me that a lot, but I'm a little bit concerned about doing it right over my organs like that. So, I just do basically my extremities, my thighs, my bottom, my butt, my arms. And then this is a big one. This is a big confession. I'm probably going to be writing about this. I haven't done it yet, but I am contemplating doing Botox preventatively in my forehead. I wasn't going to, but I had a consultation and I don't know, I started really thinking about it, like, the preventative action of it and not having wrinkles down the line. So, I think what I'm going to do is because basically it's a trade-off of putting that because it is a neurotoxin. So, putting that into your body and the cost benefit, you just have to weigh the cost benefit, I think, of what matters to you or not. If I do do it, well, A, I'm going to do a ton of research. B, I really want to write a really epic blog post about this if I do it, because I think people will think if you do Botox that means that the rest of your skin care doesn't matter or that you don't value skincare. I think I want to kind of educate people on again. I need to do the research first, but if I proceed with this route, I want to maybe spread the word or awareness about the cost benefits of Botox and also why it's still super important to have really non-toxic clean skin care and why you might have both. So, we shall see.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think that's okay. I've always been very honest. In fact, when I was on Drew's podcast for the second time, we were talking in the context about Liver King. So, I'm sure most listeners know about Liver King and how he predominantly was focusing on this kind of paleolithic lifestyle and eating organ meats. God bless him, he eats organ meats, like, with reckless abandon. Like, it's fascinating. But as soon as I saw him, I remember saying to my son, who was like putting him up on a pedestal, I said you realize that guy is on a lot of steroids. 

Melanie Avalon: That's what everybody says. He denies it. Right? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, what came out recently was his steroids, like his anabolic steroid schedule and his stack of growth hormone and a bunch of other things. So, in that context-

Melanie Avalon: I missed that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: -yeah, I was saying it to Drew, I think it's important for people that are in the public eye that are influencers to be very, it's not like you have to disclose everything, but you should be honest. I think it's important for me as a middle-aged woman, in the context of our conversation, to say every year I do ProFractional, which is laser, stimulates collagen and elastin. I think that has a lot to do with why my skin looks really really good. I think some of its genetics and I think some of it's my lifestyle. And then I do Botox, I've done Botox since I was 38. I started doing Botox because I have always had a super mobile forehead and that's where it started. And I still do Botox a couple of times a year. I have done filler a few times. I've had it reversed as well.

I think a lot of if-- you chose to go that route and there's no judgment if you do. You want to work with someone that's incredibly talented. You should never look like you've had work. You should never look like your face is immobile. You should never look like your lips look, like this is just my personal opinion. You shouldn't look like you have massive lips and like crazy high cheekbones and just understanding. I think those products are designed to be used subtly, but I think if you see some people that are in Hollywood that are like the extremes, too much of any one thing is not a good thing. In the context of this conversation, I feel like I should be transparent and say that obviously a laser is pretty benign in terms of stimulating collagen and elastin. I don't per se have a problem with using Botox or fillers very discriminately because so much of the rest of my life is so incredibly healthy and balanced.

And to the person in my DMs recently who was giving me a hard time about the fact that I shared those things. Yeah, this is why people that are in, whether they're influencers, they're in the public eye, this is why people honestly don't want to share because they don't want to be criticized. But I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with that decision because to me it's my decision. With that being said, I think I would be doing the listeners a disservice if I didn't share that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for sharing that and I am so enjoying this conversation. I have some quick thoughts and questions. One, mentioning the laser, is that the same thing as BBL? 

Cynthia Thurlow: So, I'm going to say BroadBand Light is different than the Brazilian butt lift because I very innocently last year said, “Oh, I got BBL.” And people were like, “You did?” 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you said that to me. I remember you were like, you said you were getting BBL. So, something about the next day and I was like, “Oh goodness, that's like an intense surgery,” because I think we still recorded a podcast maybe the next day. I was like, “How is she doing this right now.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, this tells you how long I've been doing BBL. It was preceded the Brazilian butt lift, which I'm told is going out of favor according to my plastic surgeon friends, which is a whole separate tangential rabbit hole that we won't jump down. In conjunction with ProFractional, I do BBL and what it's doing is any brown pigmentation. I don't have a lot of hyperpigmentation in my skin. We do that preceding the ProFractional. I hate it. I hate both of them honestly. It's like a love-hate. I'm doing it in January, which is usually the month I do it. I hide for four days and then I feel fine. With that being said, the laser in and of itself is looking for the pigmentation helps dissolve it. If you have some brown pigmentation, the laser will identify it, it will help dissipate it, but it will actually get darker for a couple of days or maybe a week and then it goes away. 

For me, I think the two of those together have been super powerful. But, for anyone that's just doing BBL - BroadBand Light, it is not painless. Make sure whoever you're working with is like getting you prepared for that because it's almost like having a rubber band snapped against your skin. As you can well imagine, doing it once is not a big deal. If they're doing your whole face that can be painful. Just make sure that they're giving you either topical lidocaine or giving you something to make you feel comfortable. 

Melanie Avalon: Although caveat, also check and make sure your practitioner lets you use that because it was during the podcast last time when we were talking about I was going to go do it and then I put on numbing cream during the podcast, which apparently is some people let you. But, where I went to Ideal Image, which I'll say their name because I think they're the biggest. They're like the go-to place. They do not let you use numbing cream. So, do not use numbing cream if you're going to them.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and my practitioner, they put it on for you. Like when you arrive, you arrive an hour before your treatment and they put it on for you. With very few exceptions, I'm very comfortable with BBL. There are spots when they do ProFractional that are tender, like along your forehead line. It freaks me out when they do underneath my eyes and my nose is a little sensitive, but beyond that, not bad. Not bad at all. 

Melanie Avalon: I've heard that old therapy is the most painful thing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Morpheus is supposed to be very, very painful. I'm not ready, if someone were to give and actually the person I go to who trains providers all over the United States doesn't use those technologies yet, because she still feels like ProFractional has just as much benefits. But every time I see her, I'm like, “So what's the latest?” And then she'll kind of get me caught up.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting though, because you mentioned the laser, so I was talking with a friend about whether or not I should do Botox or not. It's funny because he mentioned people doing lasers and Botox and whether or not you talk about it on social media, it's interesting that for some reason, Botox, I think, has more of a stigma. I have literally no issue talking about BBL or lasers or that seems almost like biohacking in a way, but for some reason, Botox feels more fake. I don't know why because I was thinking about it more, it's not even affecting your skin, it's just paralyzing the muscle underneath so you're not wrinkling your forehead all the time and not forming those lines that last. So, I find that really interesting. I mean, I think you could make the argument that well, maybe not it's because you can make the argument that Botox is biohacking [laughs] but--

Cynthia Thurlow: I think you could and here's the thing, like, I just interviewed Dr. Amy Killen, who's a female biohacker physician, and she's so knowledgeable and offline we were having discussion about some of the things that she does. She's very transparent and that's why I hope to be just as much for listeners so they can kind of get a true sense, like some of this is genetic, some of its lifestyle, and then I get help from other things. That's what we're sharing in the context of this conversation. Amy was talking about, she does all the things, PRP, stem cell stuff. It's very interesting. There's a continuum. It's all very relative. To some people, Botox may be like taboo and then others are like, "I'll do everything up to surgery." Some people are like, "I want to do everything up to surgery and surgery," and there's no judgment provided that you can afford it and you're not body dysmorphic. I think that everyone has to decide what they're comfortable with and what makes sense. From my perspective, I just wanted to add that caveat that I think I want to be fully transparent as a 51-year-old female that I try to do as many things as I can to feel as good as I look internally and reflect that externally as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I could not agree more. And then when I was talking to that friend, I said, I was like, “Well, it's a neurotoxin.” He was like, “Well, wine is a neurotoxin.” I was like good point [laughs] or alcohol. Yeah, no, I agree with the perspective and what's important to you and no judgment and just do you.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's just a healthier space to exist, and I don't have the emotional bandwidth to sit around and be judgy of other people's choices. It's like as long as you're not hurting anyone, there's very few absolutes where I'm okay, that's not a good decision. If you're harming yourself, a child, an animal, other humans, that's not good. Beyond that, it's like, I just don't have the bandwidth to worry about what everyone else is doing. It's like, if it works for you, that's great. If it doesn't, then course correct. 

Melanie Avalon: Also, one last thing to that point and I mentioned this earlier, but it's like, oh, if you're getting Botox, people might think you're lying about the importance of safe skin care or antiaging skin care. But, if you think about it, they're all really important. Like doing a process where you're paralyzing the muscle and keeping wrinkles from forming from just the mechanics of your skin doesn't negate the super overwhelming importance of taking care of your skin. Like, you would still need to do both.

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I’m ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie or actually will drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It’s important to note that it’s made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome, as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you’re traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that’s athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out.

Melanie Avalon: Damon wanted to know, laser hair removal, is it worth it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. It's funny. You do laser therapy and then you realize in your 40s into your early 50s, you don't have as much body hair. So, I'm like, what was I thinking. I went gangbusters in my 30s. Yes, yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I don't think I commented on barely any of the comments in the thread. But when I saw this one, all I did was I wrote yes, all caps.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, think about it. People spend years doing bikini waxes and electrolysis.

Melanie Avalon: And think about forgetting to shave your underarms or your legs. You don't have to anymore.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, although it's funny, I did my legs and my bikini area and I guess I took too well to it because I bought a package. They were like, literally “You've done so well. What else can we do? What else can we do for you?” For me, it was like life changing because I had done like, bikini waxes every month forever and eternity, and then all of a sudden I was like, this is great. 

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because when they try to sell you stuff and they're like, “This will be the best thing ever,” and you're like, “But really?” No, it really is. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, it's resounding. It is worth every penny, every single penny. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I've done the Brazilian, the arms, the legs. Now I'm doing the upper lip. I think that's everything. [laughs] There's nothing left.

Cynthia Thurlow: I had blonde hair on my face. I've been just doing dermaplaning because to me and it's like, here's a fun topic for conversation. During the pandemic, when I could not get to get threaded or dermaplaning or anything, my anesthetician had recommended something called Tinkle, T-I-N-K-L-E. You can find it on Amazon. It's like really inexpensive and it's a little like razor for women, so you can get rid of fuzz on your face. Oh my God life changing. I literally was like, what was I spending all this money on threading for, for years [laughs] and then waxing before that. I was like, “Oh my God.” 

Melanie Avalon: Is it special or is it just a little razor? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's for your face and it's not as strong as what a man would use. To me, it's like I can use it in between facials. And it's amazing, just amazing. For all those little weird hairs, if you like mind just tweeze them. I'm like, “Oh my God, this is amazing.” So highly recommend.

Melanie Avalon: They always have these at Marshalls and TJ Maxx. Maybe not that brand, but I use those or I used to. Oh no, I still do because I'm still doing the upper lip. Okay, here's back to non-skincare health, beauty-related things. What are your top three book recommendations besides your own?

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I've given this a lot of thought, I would say the books that are really in terms of health and wellness, I'm going to just leave it there because there're so many books. I would say the books that really shifted my perspective on a lot of different things, XX Brain by Dr. Lisa Mosconi, who I've been trying to interview for a year. She's like knee deep in research. She works at Cornell. That book helped me solidify why women-- and this is my opinion why women can benefit from hormone replacement therapy.

I would say the other book that I found really helpful, like in that space is Why Estrogen Matters by Dr. Avrum Bluming and Carol Tavris. I have had him on the podcast. We will link that in the show notes. The Women's Health Initiative is probably the most detrimental study that's ever been conducted on women in terms of the net impact on practitioners prescribing hormones and women taking hormones. You have a whole generation of clinicians and women who are fearful to take and/or prescribe medications. 

I would say, most recently, a book that really has had what I would say is this book, is the book I can read now because I've done the work. The Myth of Normal by Dr. Gabor Mate and that podcast will be out with him on December 24th. So, talking about the role of trauma in your life, I mean, he's changing the narrative for the way that we view trauma and doing it in a way that is through the lens of compassion and as someone that's a survivor of childhood trauma, both physical and emotional. For me, that book just allowed me to view my parents from a very compassionate lens. I would say those books right now in terms of health and wellness are the books that I probably recommend the most. For full disclosure, they're not easy-breezy reads. Lisa Mosconi's book, I think, is one that I recommend quite a bit to patients and clients that is more accessible. Myth of Normal is excellent, it's long and I would say that Why Estrogen Matters is a good read as well. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: That's really awesome recommendations. So, I think my favorite is Lifespan. Oh, wait. No, I'm torn. Well, okay. So, Lifespan, David Sinclair's book, Why We Age and Why We Don't Have To. It's basically just everything I'm obsessed with. And what I love, when I interviewed him on the show, I might have told you this. Did you know he drew all of the characters in the back? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? So talented. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He said that because in the very back there's hand drawn pictures of the people and everything. He drew all of those. He said he drew them because he wanted to put the actual pictures or whatever, but they couldn't get the rights to everything. So, he's like, “I'll just draw it.” [laughs] Isn't that crazy? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's along the lines of, like, when I'm in awe of people that are doing something artistic on a stage in the performing arts, okay, there's another level to my respect for him. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, it's insane. And if so you listen to my, that was the first interview I had with him. If you listen to it, he tells me this in real time, and I'm just, like, in shock, in shock. I'll probably say, this is so hard. You know what I haven't read The Paleo Solution since I read it in, like, 2012. But that's what changed my life. Like, that's the reason I'm doing what I'm doing today. Robb Wolf's book, I think I will have to include that I'm torn between James Nestor's Breath and I think I might have to do Kelly McGonigal's The Upside of Stress just because that book-- I need to try to get her on the show. That book was so valuable for me because I started stressing so much about stress, which, yes, stress has a lot of negative health effects. That's no surprise. It's not really negotiable. There's this whole aspect to it where perception affects how stress affects you. And so, reading that book took the biggest weight off of my shoulders about stress and how you can reframe your experience of stress and use it to your benefit rather than as a detriment. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that. It's someone said to me years ago, trying to pick your favorite book is like trying to pick your favorite child, it's impossible. Where I sit, where my desk is in my study, I literally have the ability to see hundreds of books. It's so hard because there're so many great books that I've read, but it's impossible to have a favorite. Just for listeners to understand, those are the three that have had the most impact on me. They've just completely blown my mind. Obviously, the ones that Melanie is identifying, two out of three I've already read. But I'm always reading. Just like, Melanie, I've actually got Sally Norton's new book on my floor to read, I'm like after I get done with podcast prep for this week. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel so bad because I always get her confused with Susan Owens because they both talk about oxalates a lot. I've had her on the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, this will be my first time. I've had one other oxalate expert who I think is trained with her, but her book is coming out. So, I was like, it's probably time to revisit the oxalate issue. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. I didn't realize she had a new book coming out. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's called Toxic Superfoods. [laughs] I'm sure there will be lots of overlap with Gundry's kind of methodologies about plant-based toxins.

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. Awesome. Here's a quick one. This is from Danielle, "What is your favorite holiday tradition?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I think a lot of the traditions that are important for us is just a lot of togetherness, a lot of disconnection from work and social media and things like that. I would say there're a lot of things that we have done as a family including like decorating the tree, decorating the house, making cookies. When my kids were younger, they were more interested, invested in those things. But I think it's the quietness around, like Christmas Eve when we go to Mass and then we read particular Christmas books and then there's a nice meal and just savoring that time. There was a recent study that came out and it talked about how much time you spend with different people throughout your lifetime. As someone with a 17-year-old and 15-year-old, I read this study and my heart hurt. The great thing that I'm going to bring to this conversation is that it just reaffirms why it's so important to connect with one another. 

So, when I think about holidays, I just see it as connection, like spending time together, making meals together, making memories together, not per se, like one specific thing, like do we drive around and look at Christmas lights? Yes. Do we make specific kinds of meals? Yes. But what I value the most, especially now that my kids are older, is just being together, being silly, watching movies, trying to deal with all of the challenges of navigating in laws and parents and expectations for kids and everything else. How about you? Does your family have special traditions around Christmas or the holidays? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I'm obsessed with everything Christmas, and mine was basically the same on Christmas Eve, we'd always had a tradition growing up of opening like, one present the night before and trying to make it a present that is something we could do together. Normally it's like if somebody gave somebody a game or something, and then we would do the gift and yeah, that's always been my favorite thing hands down. We are a big wine loving family. Having the Christmas wine and opening the presents and the Christmas Eve and playing the music, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, I am all about it. I love it. Actually, what we've started doing, I feel like it's been ever since everybody's been adults, it's been changing around. Now sometimes I think last year, maybe even the year before, we opened all of our presents just on Christmas Eve, the night before, because people are more, I don't know, spirited and lively in the evening than coming all over during the day.

Cynthia Thurlow: We've tried that. My kids always beg. My husband's kind of a traditionalist about the gift stuff. I think because I grew up with divorced parents, we just opened gifts. When we opened gifts, it wasn't regimented. My kids every year are like, can't we just open gifts on Christmas Eve. And my husband gets very rigid. I just always say, my husband's 90% of the time he's really easy going, and if he gets fixated one thing, I just tell the kids, back off. So, yeah, they're allowed to open one gift on Christmas Eve and then the rest on Christmas. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We didn't start doing this until very recently, and we're all very much adults now, but growing up like your kids' age, we never did more than one the night before. I don't think we even wanted to. My dad is that way with Monopoly, because Monopoly is always the game we would always play, and we'd always want to do things like play how there's, like, 50 million spin offs of Monopoly, like, all the different themes? No, he, like, only wants to play the original. We would always have debates about, like, the rules and because there's a lot of, I think, like, little fun things you can add or change the rules little bit, nope. [laughs] It had to be the traditional way in the rule book. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm married to an engineer, so I'll just leave that there. Anyone that's married to engineers, know engineers, you understand they can be a little rigid sometimes, but I give him a lot of credit because he's usually pretty laid back about a lot of other things. 

Melanie Avalon: So funny. Two last quick ones. So, one is sort of health related. Leslie says, “I work at HOTWORX, 24 hours Infrared Fitness Studio. What do you think about a 3D workout heat exercise infrared sauna?” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I know exactly what HOTWORX is and I love the idea. I'm going to come at this from two lenses. So, number one, I hate being hot, really hot when I'm exercising. Hate it. Like warm yoga, good. Ashtanga yoga, that's at 105 degrees. No, don't enjoy it at all. For me personally that would be a no, because I just don't enjoy being really hot unless it's hot because I'm exercising at a level that I'm increasing my basal metabolic rate and my internal thermostat.

Number two, I think the concept of a 3D workout sounds great. I think it's probably highly bio individual. If you are a 25-year-old woman who is really lean and you're pushing yourself all the time, and you're not getting a menstrual cycle and you're overdoing it, I kind of call it the triad of over fasting, over exercising, over restricting. 

But I think for probably the average person, it's probably, like, a fun way to exercise. We have to think about what heat and exercise are. They're forms of hormesis. It's the right amount of stress at the right time. I think that it's important to recognize where are you in your cycle, how is your sleep, what's your stress like. Like, it's just adding additional stressors to your body. I think in the context of someone who's sleeping well, who's in the follicular phase of their menstrual cycle, who doesn't have too much stress, that's not overdoing it and is staying hydrated, it's probably fun. That would be my guess. 

Melanie Avalon: That was basically my answer, was that I think it could be really great like, it can be a great way of hacking and getting more bang for your buck as far as benefits go. But you also need to know yourself. I'm literally just spitting out what you just said. You have to know yourself and some people it's going to be too much and it's going to be overdoing it and it's not going to have the beneficial effects in the long term because it's not allowing the adequate recovery in between. And if it's fitting into an overly stressful lifestyle anyway, it might not be the way to go. I think you really just have to know yourself. I haven't done HOTWORKX. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. no offense to anyone who loves working out in a super hot environment. I hate it. I've been that way my whole life. Hate it with a capital H. For me, like if I went to the gym and it was cold in the gym, good. If I walk outside and it's kind of hot and humid, not as interested in walking as long. But it's not that I don't see the utility I just personally hate being that hot. I hate it, just despise it. The only thing I can compare it to is like, being in Morocco, which was like an oven. [laughs] We're telling my husband I don't think we'll ever come back because it was just so hot. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm the same besides my sauna sessions where the purpose is being hot and it's relaxing, especially with infrared, not getting that hot. But I'm not about the heat. I'm all about the cold. are you guys getting a crazy cold front because it's getting down next week to 10 degrees. It doesn't get 10 degrees here. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Atlanta is going to be in a kerfuffle. Yeah. For me, it's like when I walked my dogs this morning, it was 30 degrees and it's like perfect for them. I put a hat on, I've got a light jacket on and I'm totally happy. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so pumped. Especially because the last few years has been warm on Christmas, it's going to be like 15 degrees. I am all about it. This is going to be great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I just feel like Christmas should be cold. We had, gosh it was probably ten years ago, we got snow in Virginia on Christmas Eve and it was like a dusting, but that's still like in Northern Virginia that's a shutdown mode. Everyone's freaking out. I was like, this is completely appropriate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just worried about ever since that Texas, was it Austin or wherever when it got really cold and didn't it mess up all of the water, like the pipes and everything. I'm like, please, that cannot happen. [laughs] I need my toilet.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you know what they always say. I lived in a neighborhood in Northern Virginia and most of the homes were new construction when people bought them and the builder knucklehead that they were a lot of exterior pipes were freezing during really cold spells. If you're ever concerned about your water freezing in a pipe. You can always keep your water like a little drip just to kind of keep things moving. Yeah, lots of experience with friends who went through that. Not fun. Not fun at all. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they always post-- when it starts getting cold they post signs everywhere saying, “Freeze warning and let your faucets drip.” Okay, well, this was fun. This is definitely going to be a two-parter. I'm thinking it's probably going to be a three-parter, maybe a four-parter. 

In any case, for listeners, if they would like to submit their own questions for the show and if this is your first episode listening, which since we get so many listeners, it probably is somebody's first episode listening, welcome to that person. Normally we talk about Intermittent Fasting a little bit more. You can submit your own questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode300. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So, definitely check that out and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. Well, this is been really, really fun, Cynthia. Anything from you, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I'm looking forward to round number two.

Melanie Avalon: All right, sounds good. I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 01

Episode 298: Clean Hair Products, Skipping Meals & Mortality, Dietary Recall Studies, Defining OMAD, Breaking Fast Easily, Satiety, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

ATHLETIC GREENS: 75 High-Quality Vitamins, Minerals, Whole-Food Sourced Ingredients, Probiotics, And Adaptogens In One Delicious Scoop! Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #110 - Jon Levy

Ep. 160 – The Power Of Behavior-Centric Health & Wellness: Trade-Offs for a Long and Happy Life with Jon Levy

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

Listener Feedback: Diane - Better hair products

KNOW YOUR ENVIRONMENT. PROTECT YOUR HEALTH. EWG.

Episode 294: Creatine, Excess Skin, Toning Up, Clean Hair Dye, Hormones, Caffeine, Cortisol, Hormetic Stress, Jet Lag, Hydration, Melatonin, And More!

Listener Q&A: Cara - New study found increase risk of early mortality with fasting?

Meal Skipping and Shorter Meal Intervals Are Associated with Increased Risk of All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality among US Adults

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Kemla - Does it matter?

Episode 116: The Great OMAD Debate

Listener Q&A: Nancy - one meal a day?

Listener Q&A: Spencer - Breaking fast

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off. Yes, all of that incredible meat, plus $10 off, all for free. We are a bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox, which is always in season. Some of my favorite meals that I had throughout the holiday season were fantastic meat and seafood from ButcherBox. Now with the new year, it is time to celebrate with only the very best of the best when it comes to meat and seafood that you put in your body, as well as meat and seafood that helps support our planet and the environment.

They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that’s really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you’re joining a community focused on doing what’s better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox.

All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished and they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door and it is so delicious. I love carpaccio for example. The ButcherBox steaks are incredible for that. That's how you know it's good steak when you can eat it rare like that and ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience.

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting. It's actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. 

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more. 

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I’m Melanie Avalon and I’m here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, Cynthia. Can I tell you a story and also ask you a question? They're unrelated.

Cynthia Thurlow: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, great. [chuckles] This week I had a really crazy moment. I had two interviews for press-related stuff, and I was prepping for one of the interviews. You might have seen this on my story, so I'm sorry if I'm telling the story again. I was prepping for one of the interviews and I knew one of the questions was going to be about being a female entrepreneur. So, I googled, well in DuckDuckGo but it happened in Google too. I checked. In DuckDuckGo, I googled “tips female entrepreneur” the first hit, literally the first hit was an article from Forbes, and it was the one I was in. And not only was it the first hit, but the preview text was my part of the article. So, I literally googled something to prep for the next day and I was the first hit. Isn't that crazy. I keep thinking about that. That's very surreal. Like, out of all the people in the world. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I thought it was funny that I was trying to find the answer and I clearly already had the answer. Yeah, that was my fun story. And then I have a question, but do you have any fun stories you would like to share? I know you saw Hamilton.

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. We were in New York City this past weekend, so my family and I, it's the first time we've all been together in New York in five years, which is hard to believe and it's very different with preteens versus teenagers. We had a lot of fun and Hamilton was worth every effort at seeing it on Broadway. I'm just phenomenal. The irony is I flew back to New York two days later for the Influencers Dinner. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, with John. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Which I did last night, which was amazing. I met such amazing human beings and people that were in different fields. The irony is the only person who guessed.

Melanie Avalon: Who all were there? 

Cynthia Thurlow: There were artists, there were chief marketing officers for major brands, like recognizable brands. There was a cardiologist who was in the midst of the pandemic, like, hitting New York City, who was absolutely brilliant. People just in different fields, but all really interesting like, there was a guy who had been a record producer for, like, Biggie and Pink, just such a diverse group of people, but no egos. Everyone was lovely and you were not allowed to give your last name or what you did. So, we were all interacting and then went about putting a meal together and then sat and had a meal. We went around the table trying to guess what everyone did. 

The person who guessed correctly, what I did turned out to be the cardiologist, even though we had not even talked about any of these things. He was just such a cool person. I would never have guessed he was a cardiologist because of his personality. He was just kind of more free spirited and relaxed and not nearly as intense as most of the other people. I had an amazing evening, but I was up really late for me and then was up at 04:00 in the morning and I'm working on a solid, like, 4 hours of sleep. So, I'm sure tonight I will crash. But right now, I'm running on adrenal and it was an incredible experience. I told John that you said, “Hello.” 

Melanie Avalon: That makes me so happy. I love hearing about those events. I really want to go to one as well. John keeps sending me all the dates. I'm like, “I'm going to come to one, I promise.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, it was a lot of fun. I guess the thing that was really interesting was one of the we thought was participants turned out to be his mom, who was so lovely. I got to meet her and she was visiting from Israel. It's interesting when you see people in their natural habitat because this was actually a dinner at John's house. He was totally gracious and very supportive. I went home with a signed copy of his most recent book. His dad was this incredible artist and went home with a book of his father. So, it was like, all in all, just a really incredible, like less than 24-hour experience. Yeah, no more New York travel for a while. 

Melanie Avalon: That is amazing. John and I have been bouncing off ideas. I don't know if we're going to do this. We've been thinking we should start a podcast or something just because we talk about all of these crazy, random topics. He's so well connected. I just feel like there's a lot that we could do. [chuckles] So that's so exciting. Wow. Yay.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It was a really great experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes. Cynthia and I both had John on our shows, so we will put links to the episodes that we had with him. His book you're invited is super cool. It's all about how well, I think the subtitle is something about the art of cultivating influence. But it's about how people cultivate influence. It's about how people become, like, respected leaders with communities and basically leaders of groups and things like that. It's really interesting. It's human psychology. So why people do what they do. So, yeah. 

Cynthia Thurlow: What was really interesting was that only a few people in the room knew who he was, but they still came to this dinner, which I thought was so cool because someone said to me, like, “How do John?” I said, “Oh, well, through my friend Melanie, but I've also had him on my podcast.” He made sure that he was like, if you ever need any support in your business or you have questions, I'm here for you. I think it's a really phenomenal way to network with people because you're so disarmed, because you're not allowed to lean into what's easy, meaning, like talking about your work or leading with your title, whatever it is that however people lead. That's not the way that I am. When you're making a meal with people, you really just get very relaxed, invested in the process. And so, we even helped clean up. We even did dishes. Everyone was part of making the meal, cleaning up for the meal. It was a really delightful evening. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so fun. It's nice for him, too, not to have to do dishes at the end [chuckles] of all these dinners because he has a lot of them and he does them in LA, San Francisco, and New York. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well and I think it's just nice to feel like this is really the first time I've been in New York. Maybe in September when I was there, when I spoke, but this is the first time I've been back in New York where it's felt like the New York I remember. There's still a lot of mask-wearing, that's a whole tangential conversation and there's no judgment. I'm just saying observationally. There was a lot of mask-wearing and people just being conscientious, but people just seemed, like, happy to be back interacting in person in real life with other humans. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's awesome. I should probably say his last name is John Levy. I don't think I said that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: He's so smart. He was even talking about his siblings, all of whom are incredibly accomplished, too. When we found out his mom was at the table, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so amazing.” 

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Yeah, I love that. My question for you, because this episode airs January 2nd, so this will be the day after New Year's Eve or the day after New Year's Day. Cynthia, do you make New Year's resolutions and do you recommend that people do?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that I personally don't per se change a lot from year to year. I'm of course open to the possibility, but I try to have a word of the year. That's what I lean into. In some years balance or dedication or whatever I'm leaning into and so, I'm mulling over the idea of what is going to be my focus for 2023. On a lot of different levels, I think it's probably going to be clarity about where I am in my business and where I am in my personal life. So, I do think it's a good idea to evaluate behaviors, what works, what doesn't work. But to me, I don't like to think of it as like a New Year's resolution because that to me, really means a temporary thing, whereas if I have a focus for the year, that's how I choose to frame it so that it's something I'm going to be consistently working on month to month, day to day. And so, clarity is my 2023 word, I'm fairly certain. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That is super cool. I like that. That's a very practical, implementable thing that people could do. Maybe I should do that. I don't really and I think it's because I kind of feel like every day is like a New Year's resolution day. Like constantly, I’ve so many dreams and goals, and I always feel very inspired and motivated to be doing them. So, it doesn't feel like, “Oh, this is the chance to start anew.” I'm constantly in that vibe. Not to say that people who make.

Cynthia Thurlow: Growth headspace.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, but I don't mean by that people who make New Year's resolutions aren't that way. It's just it doesn't feel like a milestone in my personal life right now. It might change. I'd be really curious though, if people want to tell us their New Year's resolutions. I wonder if the most common New Year's resolutions like what they are. Like the top 10. I would bet one of them is weight loss, but I bet one's probably career related.

Cynthia Thurlow: So, I am fully adulting now and between our financial advisor, our financial planner, my CPA in my business, it's like we've gotten very granular. I think part of the clarity piece for me, just for full transparency, is that we've gotten really, really, really specific in my business about where my energies go, where they do not. I'll give you an example as I'm sure it happens to you. You get asked a lot to do press, you get asked a lot to do guest podcasts. I was finding that I was spending so much time supporting other people's podcasts that I wasn't creating the space for me to be able to be in my business and not be stressed going from one thing to another. One of the rules that I created with my team was that I only do two guest podcasts a month and I could easily do 20.

It's one of those things where we've gotten very specific about what metrics, what's their audience like, is it a good fit. That's made me very happy because coming off of the book launch, this year has been wonderful but exhausting and it's not a pace I want to keep up. This is not to suggest my podcast is going anywhere or this podcast is going anywhere. I'm just talking about guest podcasting and is it in my best interest to be overcommitting myself. So, as an example, we've already filled the two spots in December, we filled the two in January, now we're working on February. That has allowed me to feel like I have a little bit more breathing space and so we're doing things like that because that serves my higher purpose. Then I can devote more time to my business and not feel super stressed, which has been my baseline this whole year for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no. I think that's amazing and that's something I've been really working on as well, is you want to just say yes to everything, but you can't. You need to know [chuckles] when to say no and that's okay. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, and it's interesting, when you really start getting granular about metrics and who is their audience, is it really serving my best interest and their own to have me on. We've had to politely say no to a lot of opportunities because I either don't want to be traveling all the time, that's another thing. Getting very clear about what speaking events I'm going to do and what are the things that are going to lead to more opportunities and understanding that, you and I both know this that our time is valuable as is everyone's. but does it serve me to be on planes and flying all over if it's really not laser focused on what I'm working towards. That's the one thing I would say, “Clarity.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I'm ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie, or actually we'll drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It's important to note that it's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome, as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you're traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: All ready. Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, this is actually some feedback from a listener. We recently were discussing toxic hair products and whether or not there were options for coloring your hair and we provided some brands. We just got some quick feedback from Diane, and the subject is “Better Hair Products.” And she says, “Hi there, just wanted to remind folks about the EWG website. Listening to your last podcast, someone asked about less toxic hair color/care. I've been looking for a while, and I found a few cheaper brands of hair shampoos and conditioners as I like to switch them often. Herbal Essence has some that rated low. Obviously, the scented ones rate a bit higher. Unscented castile soap is a one." I'm just going to insert something. This is Melanie talking. I am obsessed with unscented castile soap. I use it for everything. Do you use it, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. 

Melanie Avalon: I use it in the shower to take my makeup off and the sink to wash my hands. I mean, that stuff is just amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: And it lasts a while. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's incredible. I think you can also use it for the dishwasher and clothes if you make certain concoctions, but I haven't done that. She says, “I'm sure there are more, but I can't get into my personal list on the EWG website, I also found a pump hairspray that smells edible. It's raspberry and reminds me of one from the 80s that I used to use, but this is much friendlier and far less toxic. It's made by All-Nutrient, which is local to me, but I see they sell it on Amazon. I also tried a brand called I think it's Qet and the sample they sent, but it was the size of a paperclip and despite my toddler-sized hands, I couldn't even spray the thing. As far as color and lighting, I'm with you. I asked my three hairdresser friends to research this and find the least toxic/gentlest kinds, but no luck yet. Love listening to and learning from you and Cynthia XOXOX.”

I'll just comment if listeners check out that other episode. We did list quite a few dye brands that were options and I would actually love if people do have experience with nontoxic hair dye. I would love to hear if people have found brands that they like, because it's definitely one of the areas where there doesn't seem to be a lot of options. I'm surprised we didn't mention the EWG. Definitely, the EWG is amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, their Skin Deep app is certainly very helpful. Diane, thank you so much for sharing those. It gives us more options to consider. Listeners, if there are other brands that you like using that are cleaner, certainly pass them along. I think to me it is a work in progress. Hair is my pain point. I'm very transparent about that, but that does not mean that there aren't wonderful options that are out there. I'm just happy I'm using Argan oil, which is super helpful for the frizz that I experience about eight months out of the year, here in very humid hot Virginia. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to growing up in Memphis and the hair situation. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I didn't realize you grew up in Memphis. I thought you grew up in Atlanta. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, I was here until 10. I was in Memphis my formative years of 10 until 17. So, middle school and high school, elementary school part of it. What's interesting is out of the entire timeline of my life, I've lived in Memphis the least. Compared to Atlanta and Los Angeles, Memphis feels like where I've lived the longest because it was when I was growing up. 

Cynthia Thurlow: So cool. Little known facts. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is a question from Kara and it says, “New study found to increase risk of early mortality with fasting. Please interpret.” "Hi, I saw this post on Instagram from @fastingmd. The study is referenced in the show notes. She mentions, “I love this way of life. I typically fast while I'm seeing patients because I know my brain is more clear and I am more focused. It's usually about 18 hours. I've recently tried a snack at 2:30 to take probiotics for leaky gut, but I just don't like the way I feel less on if I do have a snack. After months of trying to figure out my gut issues, I went to a functional medicine practitioner based on your advice. It was the best thing I've ever done. I had no idea how not normal my bathroom experiences were, but also the amount of mental exhaustion from worrying and trying to figure out what it was that I ate that caused the issues. I tried eliminating every food category with very little improvement. To the listeners out there who this is ringing true for, go get a specialist to guide you. I am a healthcare practitioner and I couldn't solve it on my own. I'd love to hear your opinions about the study, Kara. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, Kara, thank you so much for your question and your experience. I will just comment with the probiotic snack thing. I don't know which probiotic you're taking, but a lot of probiotics you could take it with your meal or possibly even on an empty stomach. I would just look at your probiotic again and see if it indicates that it needs to be taken with food. But I feel like most probiotics you could take on an empty stomach, so that might be an option. Also, thank you for sharing your experience and your openness about being a healthcare practitioner and realizing that you can still benefit from a third-party perspective guiding you. That's super amazing. The study that she referenced is called Meal Skipping and Shorter Meal Intervals Are Associated with Increased Risk of All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality among US Adults. It was published August 10, 2022 in the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. 

It was a prospective study. It looked, in retrospect, at a lot of people, a total of 24,011 adults who had participated in surveys about food intake and eating behavior using 24-hour recall from 1999 to 2014. What it did was it looked at a lot of things, but one of the main things that looked at and why everybody is talking about this is it looked at the role of meal frequency and how it related to cardiovascular disease and mortality and they separated it into different options. There were people that skipped breakfast, people that skipped lunch and people that skipped dinner. They found that people who skipped breakfast had a higher cause for CBD mortality compared to those who didn't. People who skipped lunch and people who skipped dinner had a higher cause for all-cause mortality.

So, of course, it has a really scary headline, which is annoying and we can break this down. I mean, the headline makes it look like it is literally the meal skipping and the shorter meal intervals, because they also looked at how often people were eating, and they looked at that association. In the title, of course, they say that is leading to an increased risk of these diseases and death. But what did it actually find. So, what's interesting is it was looking at a lot of characteristics of people. So, it wasn't just the meal intake. The people who did not eat three meals per day, because the majority of the people so over half of the people were eating three meals per day. The people who weren't, so their general characteristics, they were more likely-- so it's a list. They're more likely to be younger men, non-Hispanic black, less education, lower family income, smokers, heavy alcohol drinkers, higher physical activity, lower total energy intake, lower diet quality, food insecure, and they snacked more. So, what's really interesting about this is [laughs] basically there was a lot of confounding factors happening in these people who were skipping meals. It's really really hard to say that it was the meal skipping that was the cause of this, when there were so many other things going on, unhealthy related habits that seemed to associate with it. 

Also, of interest of note, and I would actually be really curious, I would be super curious if this got redone now, if it would be different, because this occurred, like I said, from 1999 to 2014. Intermittent fasting has, I feel like, really become more popular probably in the last decade. Kind of near the end of the study is when intermittent fasting started becoming more popular. During the time of the study was definitely the time when we were all told that breakfast is the most healthy meal of the day. A lot of people who are skipping breakfast, especially during this time, might have had other unhealthy habits or on the flipside, people who are eating breakfast might more likely have had healthy habits. It's hard to associate causation from correlation is my point.

So, yes, the takeaway is that this was not cause and effect. This did not look at people's blood sugar levels. It did not look at an individual fasting and see what was happening in their body. It literally just looked at thousands of people what are they doing, how are they eating, and then what was their cardiovascular risk and their mortality risk. 

One last note about it, dietary recall studies can be a little bit problematic. I even heard Peter Attia say on an episode that he doesn't even ever consider dietary recall studies because we're just so bad with recalling. So, for example, in this study, from the original group of people, they removed 3136 participants due to implausible total energy intake. Meaning what those people reported didn't make sense realistically. There was really probably no way they were actually eating that. If there were 3136 people that were clearly overwhelmingly wrong in what they were saying, it makes you curious about the people that were included. So, yes, takeaways, dietary recall study issues, the timing of when this occurred during a time when fasting was not seen as a healthy practice, and then the confounding factors, I think, is huge and then lack of actual cause, and effect causation versus correlation. 

Not to say that there's not valuable information here, but those are my thoughts on this study. Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I agree with everything that you've said. I think this is the challenge with nutritional research on a lot of levels. Patients oftentimes do not want to fully disclose what they're eating. It's not to suggest that's per se not kind of human nature, but more often than not, I know when I ask for diet recalls, sometimes I fervently believe that people tell me what they think I want to see or want to hear. Nutritional research in and of itself is challenging.

Number two, I do think that there are many issues with looking at research over a long period of time. As you very appropriately mentioned, we didn't know the insulin sensitivity of these individuals. It's my understanding from the study that it was a fairly unhealthy population that they were looking at and so, does it mean that there's more research that can be done? Absolutely.

As you appropriately stated, correlation does not mean causation and so that's why it's important. Really this is one of the challenges I have with the media is that they don't know how to properly interpret research and what they do is they like sensationalization and so, they'll throw out these articles. There's one in the New York Post that I got tagged in all over social media and people were saying, “Oh well, this is going to hasten your morbidity and mortality.” And I was like, "Hey, time out. Let's look at who sponsored the study, let's look at the data, let's look at the high quality of research.” 

We know that randomized controlled trials are the gold standard and obviously that's not what we're looking at here in this instance. I think it just really speaks to the fact we need more information, we need more research to look at this, but epidemiologic research in general looking at different types of research, nutritional research can be particularly challenging on a lot of different levels. I think it just remains to be seen. If we're looking at an already unhealthy population, it's very hard to extrapolate and then say this is applicable to everyone. Hopefully that's clear.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For example, what I would love for them to have done, which they could have done, I don't know, it's a little bit annoying. They could have separated it out because I mentioned all of those factors about people who were not eating three meals per day what they were more likely to be. I would be super curious if they separated out the people who were skipping a meal by any one of those confounding factors to see if there's a difference. Maybe since its food related, they could have done it by the food stuff. They could have split it by lower diet quality and food insecurity and seen if you separate it that way, do you still see that pattern. You could filter the data a lot of different ways and I bet you would have seen a lot of different things. So, it is what it is. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's just the beginning point to really look at things. The other piece is that probably our listeners and ourselves, we don't eat a Standard American Diet and we recognize now how inflammatory and problematic the Standard American Diet is because it's highly processed, hyper palatable, too many carbohydrates, too many wrong types of fats, too little protein, and that doesn't help metabolic health at all. There're so many different things that usually when I'm looking at these kinds of articles, I always want to know like, what were they eating because I think that has a large impact on the results that they are reporting. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was interesting. I was actually thinking about that when I was reading the article because for diet quality, they actually broke down how they determined that, but they didn't give specifics. It was basically like-- It was like a dozen categories of components of food like fruits, vegetables, fatty acids. It was like a dozen of them, salt, sodium. Even within that, there's so much debate about diet. So, I find it interesting that even ranking things by diet quality, I mean, there would be nuance and debate within that. One other little note I did want to point out, I looked at the original post that she referenced on Instagram. I thought this was interesting. Do you know the @fastingmd, she follows you? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I do. I think she's a fan of circadian fasting. That's kind of her cornerstone. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, okay, got you. So, I don't know if she did this on purpose. I'll just assume she did not. It was a good moment that I thought was a good thing to draw attention to because this goes back to like really encouraging listeners to look at the source material, especially with things like this, where it gets into social media and the news. This is a very small thing, but I still think it's telling of what is happening all the time. So, for example, she mentioned what I mentioned about how the participants who are skipping meals were more likely to be all of these other factors which are mostly unfavorable in that they are associated with lesser health outcomes.

She listed the entire list, but she left out one which was the positive one. She left out higher physical activity and so it could have been an accident. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but I think it's a really good example, because I read it and I was like, wait, but higher physical activity was also one of the things on there. I think it's a good example of even when somebody says, even me right now saying, “What's in the study,” go read the original study. Because I think every time you hear not from the actual source material, you're getting a filtered biased version of it from me, from everybody, even from you. When you read it, you're going to give it your own filter and bias. The most unbiased version you can get is probably reading the original one. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important. I mean, we're realistic, I may not be able to read every single piece of research that's out there, but certainly the ones that are intriguing and really relevant. Looking at the sample size, I mean, just looking at basic tenets of the research that was done, I think can be very helpful. I have to believe if @fastingmd is anything like my team, sometimes they're so quick to get content up but sometimes things get missed. So maybe that was unintentional. But I know that Amy's, it's Amy Shah. I know that her content tends to be surrounded around honoring circadian biology as it relates to fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah. Again, it probably was unintentional, but it was completely separate from her. It was a moment where I realized again how important it is to go look at the original stuff if you have the time and energy and it's something that you are interested in. 

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Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: We have two questions that are sort of related, so I thought we could answer both of them. So, the first one comes from Kimla. The subject is “One meal a day: Does it matter.” And Kimla says, "I hear a lot of disagreement about what really defines one meal a day." Cynthia, I'm just laughing because I think I mentioned before you know we've had, like, the great one meal a day debate on this show, like Gin and I have debated the definition of one meal a day at length, it became a whole thing. What really defines one meal a day? [chuckles] I wonder why so many people debate this. Is it just a label that people want to place on their fasting pattern?

According to Gin, I adhere to one meal a day, but if I use Melanie's definition, then it would only be sometimes. What I do know is that I typically fast for 21 hours. My eating window varies daily based on how hungry I am. Sometimes I have a five-hour window and sometimes two hours. I do use an app called LIFE on Android to track my fasting time since I've only been doing IF since June, and I always forget what time I quit eating the night before. I think I've gotten offtrack of what my question was now, basically, does it really matter if you truly eat one meal a day or is the fasting window the focus? When I start reading a lot about one meal a day or listening to all the debates over one meal a day and by the way, she's calling it OMAD. 

She says, “I start to get a little obsessed about how much I should or should not be eating during my window, and if I can have a snack or need to cluster all my food. I have noticed this tendency. So, instead I really just tried to pay attention only to how I'm feeling. This has been working great so far. I eat ice cream most nights after dinner which makes me so happy. IF is a keeper in my book. Thank you for all the information. The podcasts and resources have been great tools and I love this way of life. I have never lost weight so effortlessly, no special foods, no containers. I don't have to pack and drag food all over with me, I never feel hungry, and my crazy sugar cravings have disappeared. Thank you for clarifying this concept.”

We have another question from Nancy. The subject is “One meal a day?” and Nancy says, “I'm a new IFer and I've been doing a 16:8 fast. I read here a lot about having one meal a day during that eight-hour feeding window, which seems to contradict other things. I read or hear about eating all of one's calories within that eight-hour feeding window. I basically don't understand what it means to eat one meal within that eight-hour window. Does it mean that you can eat one meal, say at 12:30 PM, a big lunch or 07:30 PM, a big dinner and snack for the rest of your feeding window? If you do only one meal, what is the benefit of that versus spreading out your eating window within your eight-hour window? I like to have a lunch at 12:30 and a dinner at about 7:30. Is there a reason I shouldn't do that? Thanks.”

Before you jump in, Cynthia. I'll give you some recap of Gin and I's thoughts on this and what the great debate was, which in the show notes. The show notes will be at ifppodcast.com/episode298. We will put a link to the great debate, the great one meal a day debate episode that I have with Gin. It's ironic or it's interesting because Gin and I typically eat over the same amount of hours-ish, so it's typically like probably an average of a five-hour eating window, probably four to six hours. The difference is that Gin has a pattern where she has a snack and then she doesn't eat and then she eats her meal later, whereas I eat the entire time straight through [laughs] like the entire four or five hours. It's a very long drawn out pattern. Listeners probably already have it memorized. Like I eat my cucumbers and I drink my wine and then I'm cooking my food and then I eat my food, which is like my scallops, my protein, and then I eat a lot of fruit for quite a while.

Our big debate was I was saying for Gin, I was like, “Yours is like one meal a day and a snack because you're having a snack and then you're not eating and then you're eating.” I was like saying for mine that, “It's one meal because it's like being at a really long dinner where I'm constantly eating.”

Kimla's question about why does it matter, I really don't think it does. [laughs] It's more just the semantics of it. Although, that said for Nancy, I don't really know anybody who would consider like an eight-hour eating window at one meal a day. That's pretty long. So, I can share more thoughts. But Cynthia, what are your thoughts on the semantics of one meal a day? Does it matter? What do you call it? All the things. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, goodness, I feel like I'm stepping into a landmine. So, Kimla and Nancy, thank you for your questions. First and foremost, I think it's important to, if you're metabolically healthy, to intuitively eat. So, when Kimla asks about some days when she has one meal versus other days she eats more than one meal, I think there's nothing wrong with that. In my estimation, one meal a day is exactly that one meal a day. When I think about Melanie's methodology and how she chooses to have like a wider feeding window, a wider eating window, I guess that's maybe the way to call it. I kind of differentiate that. I mean that to me is different. I think we can get caught up in semantics. I would say the same thing about when people ask, does this break my fast. We get nuanced and granular and everyone's stressing. I'm like, really what we should be focused on is determining how many meals do we need in our feeding window to get our protein in that's the first thing. I think that's very important for some people. If you're a unicorn and you can eat a huge meal and have 100 g of protein, more power to you. I'm not that person. I divide my food, my meals into at least two, if not three meals to get my protein in. 

Number two is I think it's important to vary what we do. I think most of us need to do that now. Do we have unicorns? Absolutely. That's a loving word when I say unicorn each one of us are individuals, each one of us needs something a little bit different based on our own needs or personal professional needs. And that's totally okay. Women that are still getting a menstrual cycle really should fast for their cycle. Women that are in perimenopause and menopause need to be careful about over fasting. I'm starting to see a lot of this women that are irrespective of life stage, but they are having very rigid rules about when they eat, how much they eat, a rigid fixation. 

I do think just one meal a day is a problem. I think it's fine every once in a while. Let me be clear what Melanie is defining as what works for her, she's getting plenty of protein in that feeding window. If you're just having one meal that has 30 g of protein, you are chronically undereating and that is something I get concerned about. There's zero judgment. Each one of us has to decide what works for our bodies. But if you're chronically undereating and you're chronically undereating protein in particular, and you are a woman north of 35 or 40, you are putting yourself at risk for metabolic inflexibility. That's what I want to just state. I recognize not everyone may like that opinion, but I do feel that it's important to at least interject. Can you get your protein in in your feeding window? Do I have one meal a day when I'm been traveling or maybe I went on vacation and I ate too much? Sure. But do I do that every day? No, but do we need to split hairs about OMAD? OMAD to me is one meal in a feeding window. It is not like a wider feeding window, like what Melanie does. To me, I don't think of that as OMAD. I just think Melanie has a gradual feeding window. How’s that? Is that a good way of describing it? 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. So, I guess, well first of all, super glad that you drew attention to, I think, the crux of the issue with the one meal day of getting in the protein intake. So, yes, that's definitely the major focus there. I guess the reason I feel, I feel like I'm having flashbacks to me and Gin talking, the reason I feel like mine is still one meal a day is, it's like being at a restaurant. It's literally a one meal situation. I start my eating. I'm like having the meal, it just happens to take, because I eat so much volume wise, this is all like whole foods, so it's all pounds of meat, pounds of cucumbers, pounds of blueberries, so it takes a long time to eat all of that. I like to eat slowly, so it's like eating one long slow meal. If you went to a restaurant and it was like a four-hour dinner type thing. 

That's why I feel like it's one meal because it's not like I'm having a snack and then not eating and then having a snack and then not eating, and then eating. It's like mealtime. If listeners are curious what I'm doing, I know people say that you should eat and just eat and focus on just eating, but I'm always reading two books at any one time, so I'm listening to one on Audible during the day to prep for the Melania Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'm always listening to one during the day and then at night is when I read. I'm reading during those four hours and taking notes. That's why I feel like it's a meal situation. It really doesn't matter. It's semantics.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I love that you have this whole process of creating digestive fire. You're starting kind of slowly and then building up to this crescendo and then it comes back down. For me, it's two boluses of food. I do know there are a lot of people out there that have differing interpretations of OMAD. It's not that one is right and one is wrong. I think that to me it makes sense to say OMAD is one meal, one food bolus. If you have two meals in your feeding window, great, but I don't think it should be a source of stress. Like ultimately eating less often should not be causing you more stress like really and truly. We have enough stress in our lives. We don't need to add more stress stressing about definitions of things. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I would comment that like an eight-hour eating window, like what Nancy is doing. I don't see how that would really be one meal. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Right, right. It really should be two. I mean, I'll give you a prime example. I traveled yesterday, I traveled this morning to come back from New York, and today is a much wider, fasting window because I literally have not been able to stop and eat. So, when I'm done with this podcast, I will go eat and I'll probably divide my protein into two portions because I'll probably eat a little bit and then a little bit more before I would close my feeding window just to make sure I get enough protein in.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Yeah. That also goes back to knowing yourself and the unicorn comment and things like that. I do so well with just a massive, massive bolus of protein all at once. For a lot of people, I understand they can't handle that like they would need to separate it. So really, it's about knowing yourself. You commented on this. That's what I really love about Kimla's observation. She seems to be very intuitive with how she feels. So, yes. I think not getting lost in the semantics and like Cynthia said, stressing about the definitions and all of that. There's really no need to just focus on what you need to get out of your eating window.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important because one of the things that I get the sense of is that there's anxiety around rules and there's anxiety around lifestyle changes. And that's definitely not what we want. We don't want to create more anxiety. We actually want fasting or digestive rest, like you do 12 hours of digestive rest. Like, it really should not be an added stress to your life. For those of you that are newbies, certainly lean in. There're so many great podcasts, like, over the last several years that Gin and Melanie did, and Melanie and I have been doing since May. And there's so much great information. Our books are great sources of information as well. Don't let it be a stressor. Just the concept of intuitive eating, intuitive fasting may not be accessible for everyone right now, but that's what we hope you get to a point where you can really lean into what makes your body feel good. 

You're an N of 1. This experimentation that goes on in terms of lifestyle changes. I know that the most I can eat in terms of a protein bolus is about 60 g. That's a good amount of protein for me in one meal. If I do 75, I'm probably going to be uncomfortable. So, 60 g is what I've been able to work up to but that didn't start right away. That was something I worked up to. We know most women are eating probably 40, maybe 50 g of protein a day. Most of us are not eating enough. Just be consistently working towards goals and that's the best that we should be able to do, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I could not agree more. I find it so interesting, too. If I just ate, like, 40 g like you were saying, I would be starving, starving. Every time I go out to dinner, I get an entree, now it's my dessert, another round of meat. So good. So, so good. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that. It's funny Ben Azadi, who I know that you have recently recorded with, Ben, gets two dinners. And so, my husband the first time--

Melanie Avalon: Well, he does two. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Ben is, like, very tall and very lean. We were in Utah together, my husband and I, and his fiancée and Ben, and we're having dinner. And his fiancée, Natassia was like, “Watch.” And Ben's like, “I'll have two dinners.” And they were like, “What?” He was like, “Oh, yeah, we'll have two dinners.” And my husband and I were like, “What's wrong with that?" [unintelligible [00:55:49] one good-sized meal. 

Melanie Avalon: Does he have them at the same time or does he get them back to back? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, at the same time. 

Melanie Avalon: Like I did on my birthday dinner. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hmm-mm. And he ate it all. We were like, he's like a teenage boy, he has that capacity. I was like that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: I will get two entrees, or I will get an entree and then for dessert when everybody gets their dessert, I get another entrée. And I will say, so a little tip for listeners if anybody else wants to do this, I don't know if anybody else wants to do this. But especially if you're like keto or low carb, which I'm actually not, ironically enough, but it can be really fun to get an appetizer, like another round of sashimi or another steak for dessert. Let the kitchen know. If you're there late, they'll often shut down the entree part of the kitchen early. If you do want that for dessert, you need to let them know earlier on that you're going to be ordering that. Just a little tip for the one other person that wants to do this already.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's a good tip.

Melanie Avalon: They've cut it close sometimes because I've waited too long to tell them.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] You also eat late at night, so they're probably like, “We're done.” Melanie's like, “No, I need more food.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you get an appetizer for dessert like the tartar, the carpaccio that comes from one part of the kitchen that might have shut down, and if you get an entree for dessert that comes from another part of the kitchen that might have shut down, the appetizer part of the kitchen is actually more likely to have shut down, I think. Now, I was thinking back to my serving days. That might not actually be true because oftentimes the dessert station is the same person as the appetizer station. In any case, the point is, ask your waiter or let them know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: Should we answer one more question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Our next question is from Spencer. Subject is “Breaking fast.” “Is there a proper way to break a fast? I feel like I want some items that are still a little unhealthy and seem to not really be losing weight on the scale. Maybe I need to also throw mine away but it got me thinking.” I'm assuming he's talking about the scale. “I keep hearing about there being a proper way to break a fast. Any thoughts on what I should be eating when I break my fast to provide me with the best results? I'm currently listening to the podcast and maybe haven't seen this question yet. Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Spencer, thank you so much for your question. It's interesting because we have talked about this question on the show, seeing as how many episodes we've had, probably multiple times. But I think there's a unique spin we can give on answering at this time because normally when we have answered this question, I think it's been more in the context of how to ease your digestion, how to help heal leaky gut. Opening with things like bone broth and with gentle things you can digest. I don't know that I've given the perspective before of how to break your fast with specifically weight loss being the goal. And so, something that occurred to me is that and this is very individual, I think knowing how your body responds with insulin, you don't have to actually know the insulin number, but your perception of responding with blood sugar swings or not to different foods can be very helpful in the ordering of your food.

Because, for example, I mentioned before my order, my crazy order, oh, I'm so happy that we're answering this in here because this works so well together. The reason I do that order is very specific. It's what provides me well, hey, I can digest it well, but it provides me the most-- I always wonder, is it satiety or sha-city? I say satiety, right? But can it be both? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I say satiety, and I can assure you that after doing the audiobook for my book, the producer made sure that every word was enunciated and properly, I mean, everything. Yes, you say it correctly.

Melanie Avalon: Great. I have the most satiety with my personal pancreas and my personal insulin and my personal blood sugar regulation. When I open with the wine and cucumbers, like, that doesn't make me ravenous, it doesn't make me have blood sugar drops. Then I eat the massive amount of protein, which I find very satiating. The reason I actually eat a ton of fruit at the end is because I have found that mitigates what I either perceived as reactive hypoglycemia when I was doing low carb or might not have actually been reactive hypoglycemia. It might have been, we talked about it before, there's a name for it. I think it's like, idio--. It's basically feeling like reactive hyperglycemia, but it's actually not. You actually have normal blood sugar levels, but you feel like your blood sugar is dropping. When I was doing low carb and eating a mass amount of protein, I would be really satiated, and then I would go to bed, and then I would wake up starving. 

I think it was from my blood sugar probably dropping from the high protein intake. I do that pattern because it allows me to feel full, feel nourished and I don't get swings later. So, I think knowing yourself and experimenting to find what can you open your window with that will for you keep you full and satisfied, can be very helpful. For a lot of people, if they were to open with a simple carb-type situation, they might get a massive blood sugar swing that might make them ravenously hungry and make them overeat, even things like alcohol. Some people, the timing of the alcohol, depending on where it is, depending on their own alcohol metabolism, might make them eat more or less. Depending on that, the timing of if you're eating fat or not could make a difference. Basically, I would focus Spencer on finding the way that opens up the fasts that provides you with the most satiety.

Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I am a fan of leading with protein into opening up your feeding window. Sorry, that would be my dog groaning underneath my feet, in case anyone's wondering. I think leaning into protein is important both for blood sugar support and also for satiety. For me, it's either protein and non-starchy carbohydrates, or it's protein and healthy fats, and that's typically how I break my fast. I just think protein is a really important macronutrient and one that I spend a lot of time talking about. I spend a lot of time discussing examples of protein and non-starchy vegetables. It could be chicken, it could be bison, it could beef. You could have arugula or spinach, or you could have broccoli or cauliflower versus sometimes when I sit down to have a protein and fat meal, it might be a piece of salmon, fattier cut of meat.

Those are the things I kind of lean into because it fulfills my needs in terms of getting my macronutrients in, but it also leaves me satiated. I can always tell if I haven't gotten those macronutrients right, because I will then be looking for more food when I'm done. But I think some degree of experimentation to find out what works well for you. I have some patients that want to break their fast with bone broth, others that want to take a light salad, like what Melanie does, where she has her cucumbers and her wine, and then she leans into the protein piece. I would do some degree of experimentation to find out what works best for you, but the protein is one that I always try to emphasize for most people.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like @ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. That is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. Super excited for our upcoming recordings together and I look forward to getting feedback from listeners.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, and because of when this comes out Happy New Year to you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Happy 2023, hard to believe.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's crazy. I'm excited for it, though. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Me too. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, I'll talk to you later.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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