Search Results for: collagen

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Apr 07

Episode 364: Special Guest: Dane Johnson, The S.H.I.E.L.D. Program, Healing Crohn’s Colitis, IBS-C and IBS-D, Gut Health, Self Advocacy, Diet and Nutrition, Mindset, The Journey Of Recovery, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #189 - Dr. Megan Rossi

Welcome to Episode 364 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Blissy: Get cooling, comfortable, sustainable silk pillowcases to revolutionize your -sleep, skin, and hair! Once you get silk pillowcases, you will never look back! Get Blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.Com/ifpodcast, with the code ifpodcast for 30% off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

BLISSY: Get Blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.com/ifpodcast, with the code ifpodcast for 30% off!

Go to ifpodcast.com/shield and get a $400 supplement gift card when you sign up for the SHIELD Program!

Dane's poor health history

Being close to death early in age

CMV

Difficulty with prednisone

Getting into rest and digest

Meditation, prayer, journaling

Victim mindset

Reading inspirational books

Law of attraction

You don't have to be perfect

GI Map for SIBO and imbalances

Missing the important clues on standard tests

Leaky gut and loss of microbiome diversity

The liver's role

Food philosophy

Feeling unsafe in your body

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #27 - Nick Ortner

SHIELD Program

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 364 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. You are in for a super special treat today with today's episode with Dane Johnson, I think you all will find it so inspiring. This episode is honestly for anybody, anywhere, whoever has struggled with health issues. We talk about so many inspiring things. And for those of you who do suffer specifically from IBD, Crohn's, colitis, definitely check out Dane's program. You can get a completely free evaluation appointment if you qualify by going to ifpodcast .com slash shield. And then if you do qualify, and you do do that free appointment, and decide you do want to do the program, you will get a $400 supplement card with the program, which is awesome. You also get three months of coaching, lifetime support, so many things. After hearing Dane's story today, you'll really see how he completely changed his life and is changing so many other lives. And even if you don't technically have IBD or Crohn's or colitis, but just suffer from GI issues, IBS or actually any health issues. This episode is for you. It is so inspiring. We talk about so many things when it comes to reclaiming your health. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Now enjoy the show. Hi friends, welcome to episode 364 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I have a very special guest on today's show. I am just so excited about this conversation. I think it's going to help so many people. So the backstory on today's conversation, about a year ago now, I went to Dave Asprey's biohacking conference in Orlando, and I met the fabulous, amazing Erin Smith. I think I had known her through email a little bit because she works with a lot of really amazing people. But I met her in person. She works with slash represents a lot of really cool people and was like, you have to meet my friend Dane Johnson. He has this incredible story about reversing IBD and dealing with IBS. And he's just changing so many lives and just has this incredible energy to share with people. So I was like, yes, please let me meet him. And so since then we scheduled the show, I went and listened to some of Dane's interviews and friends. I'm just so excited to have this conversation now because I think everybody is in for a journey when they hear what he went through and what he's doing today changing so many lives. So today he's the founder and CEO of Crohn's Colitis Lifestyle. And he's also a board certified nutritionist, specializing in reversing Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. But Dane, well, first of all, thank you so much for being here. And like I said, I have listened to some of your interviews and it's having been in places myself with IBS and also with hospital stays and things like that. I really, really appreciate you sharing your story and everything that you've gone through to, you know, reverse what you went through. But I obviously can't put your story in words for me. So first of all, welcome. Second of all, what's your story? What happened? I mean, it's crazy. I'm like, so excited to hear it now from you, like in real time.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you. Thank you for having me and what an intro. Thank you, Mel. It's awesome to be here. Shout out to Erin. I've been with Erin for years. She's been a best friend and a connection to this industry and she's got that same excitement for what we're going to talk about today, guys. Yes, we need to get this out there about nutrition or biohacking or drainage or what's going on with the liver or cells or all these underlying issues that we're not hearing from our great, fabulous doctors in their own right. And so, yeah, she's amazing and I love working with her. Shout out to her and thank you for having me so much on here on episode 364. I'm going to bring the heat today, guys. Grab, you know, get pen and paper. If you know someone dealing with IBD, this is the moment I'm going to bring you as much value, as many to -dos, as much aha as I can at the time we have. I'm not going to hold back and I'm excited to help change lives. So I dedicate to you, to anyone out there who's chronically sick, who's stuck in that prison like I was, who feels like there's no answers, the biologics aren't working, the steroids aren't working, the antibiotics aren't working, doctors are talking about cutting out body parts. This... is dedicated to you, you're not alone.

Melanie Avalon:
some listeners might think, Oh, well, I don't have a technical diagnosis of IBD. I just want to share, this is really going to be for anybody who has experienced any sort of GI distress, just from, based on what I've listened from, you know, your story, just as a really quick random side note tangent. I was interviewing Dr. Megan Rosie a while ago. She's more in the plant -based sphere, but she works with gut health and digestion. And I learned, I think it was during that conversation, I learned that they actually have changed sort of recently, or when I interviewed her, it was recently the official criteria of IBS, which I thought was so, I find it really interesting how they even diagnose these things. Cause I realized I didn't technically qualify anymore because like I have a ton of digestive issues and have historically and deal with them through food and diet and lifestyle, but like now the criteria requires actual pain. And I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't actually have pain. So that's kind of like a tangent rabbit hole, but I find it really interesting, all the different labels and diagnoses and things. What are your thoughts on all of that for people?

Dane Johnson:
If you want to. go into conspiracy theory, maybe it's because we can't have 35% to 45% of the United States diagnosed with IBS because everyone is having these issues. At what point is it just, okay, everyone is having this? Why is there such an epidemic? And to your point about this isn't just IBS, IBD. I've worked with tons of people who are undiagnosed suffering. I'll give you one example. I worked with this guy, Steve. He worked at his father's business. He lived in Newport Beach, California, and he could not figure out what's wrong. 15 baboons today, 50 pounds under weight, no diagnosis, no inflammation, and just suffering. And we were able to get him off. And he was taking antidepressants because they would constipate him, not because of his mental issues. So that's how screwed in his case, he was just tied up like, I don't know what to do. This conversation is for anyone who wants to learn about how do I get happy and healthy at the same time and optimize my gut. And my story is going to help you with that. Because I was a good old boy from Virginia. I worked at Papa John's Pizza for four years. What do you think I ate five days a week? Making $5 .50 an hour. Okay, I worked Domino's, Papa John's Pizza. I ate fast food every day. I went to college and drank beer and ate whatever I could afford. We'd go to La Hacienda, like Mexican place, and just get the free chips and salsa with a cheese and tortilla queso, and it would cost three bucks, because I was broke, right? I mean, so that's when I started getting UC symptoms, and I was also really big in the gym, if you're someone who loves your GNC whey protein. I got to have 300 grams of protein a day to build muscle kind of guy. I can relate with that. If you're someone noticed thinking that your hormones might be off with gut health, I'll try to address that today. Everything is connected. The gut health, and I'd say, it's probably an argument on what is more important, both are extremely important, is also the liver. The liver and the gut have a lot of core issues that we can discuss today on how can we start to clean these? What are root causes? How do we find them? Should we invest in lab work? What's going on with food sensitivities? What is the microbiome? How do we start to build it? How do we know when it's getting better? How can I deal with things like constipation, diarrhea? What are some root issues that might be happening with that? So there's a lot we can discuss, and everyone with IBD, I want you to realize this in the connection. Just because you've been diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease or IBS doesn't mean you have an alien gut. You still have a normal human gut, and when you optimize a gut that has a diagnosis of IBD, you actually might get healthier than what a quote unquote normal person might see in their gut. there's a lot of words. Does that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
It does. And super inspiring. Basically, you know, if we are having these issues, it's an opportunity to, like you said, not only potentially reverse them, but to really, truly optimize your gut health. Yeah. Okay. I'm so excited. Can you dive into your story? I can't wait for you to start telling it. And I don't understand just having listened to your prior interviews. I don't know how you were doing it. Like I don't know how you were showing up on sets in the condition that you were in.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, yeah. And the last little thing on our tangent is my lab work looks better than everyone else's around me who are considered normal, who've never had a diagnosis. That's my point. My stool analysis, my urinalysis, my blood analysis, all of it, all of it. I look at normal people's quantitative PCR stool analysis and I find candida, I find Clostridia, I find dysbiotic bacteria, I find low stomach acid, I find fat malabsorption with no diagnosis. So that's what I'm saying, guys. It's for all of us. We're all together. IBD just means it got to a point where it's chronically inflamed, your immune system's freaking out, and now you're getting symptomatic. But there's a lot of people who are not symptomatic getting this symptom. So last tangent, let's jump in so people can understand about my experience. And as I said, the thing that really connects me is I never wanted this. I never wanted to be in natural medicine when I was younger. I was always entrepreneurial. I was always a hard worker, but I just wanted to eat what everyone else ate. I wanted to go where everyone else went. I didn't want to try to be this person who was restricting what I ate. I had a lot of problems being able to succeed in this. And the success came from a need, not a want, is the big point. So at 19 years old, I was going to College of Charleston in South Carolina, love Charleston, and I started getting blood in the stool. And the only thing I could think of is I was under a lot of stress with school. I had a breakup with a girlfriend at the time. And then I also was really getting into weightlifting. So I was having three to four protein shakes a day of stuff from GNC. And it was regular whey protein, which I came to find highly processed whey protein with a lot of additives, a lot of chemicals and sweeteners and different things that I think did affect my gut. And I started getting blood cramping pain as I calmed down on some of that protein. I calmed down on drinking alcohol. I calmed down on pizza that you have in college at 19 years old. I started noticing the symptoms did calm down. But by the time I was 23, it was kind of going on and off. I didn't I never heard of IBD. I never want to look at these problems. I wasn't one who wanted to go to the doctor. So I kind of put things off until I was about 23. And the reason is because at 23, I had started to have 12, 15, 18 bloody bowel movements a day. So I would go to the I would go. I mean, I was working in a lot of stress. Was it involved? I think a lot of us can connect with stress and symptoms. I was living in Washington, D .C., working a nine to five cubicle job, suit and tie, our commute there and back every day. I wasn't seeing friends. I was forty thousand dollars in debt from college. I was living on my dad's pullout couch, you know, trying to save money to pay off this debt. And I was kind of sad and miserable with it, but I was just willing to work hard. And I think my body started breaking down. But it looked like a crime scene and I didn't know what happened. And it was no longer, oh, I must have ate something off. And you kind of, you know, oh, you know, maybe it'll get better on its own. I think that's what we a lot of us do. It had gotten so bad that I had to start speaking about it. And I told my parents and then we went to the doctor and that's when they diagnosed me with ulcerative colitis at first.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow.

Dane Johnson:
That's terrifying. It was, too, because I'd never heard of it. And I didn't know what it was. And I remember sitting there, and I'm 22, 23 years old, and this doctor goes, yeah, you have ulcerative colitis. You're going to have this for the rest of your life. We need to start you on prednisone and mesalazine. So it's a 5 -ASA anti -inflammatory stomach coder along with cortisol steroid that helps knock out inflammation in your body. Long -term, terrible for you. A lot of problems with prednisone. But it can help knock out symptoms and make you feel like, oh, I'm going to be OK. But as you come off of it, it also has problems. So over the next few years, I just got more sick and more sick. So from 23 until I almost died of Crohn's colitis right around my birthday at 27 years old, it just got worse and worse and worse. So I just went through how everyone went through this. I used my insurance. I went to multiple doctors. We just did what they said. We even started reading about diets. So even while I was going on 6MP, Remicade, Intivio, anyone who's been chronically sick knows what I'm talking about. So these lifelong infusions of immunosuppressants and immunomodulators. So they usually put you on both, like an M urine and a Remicade or a 6MP or Intivio and you do both of them. Well, they were not effective. I was getting more sick on these drugs. I was getting terrible side effects. So I'm talking waking up in a pool of your own sweat, freezing, like you just jumped into the Atlantic Ocean in December. So, you know, sweats, headaches, pain, you know, three to four bowel movements a night, 15 bowel movements during the day. And then I started getting covered in cystic acne. And I didn't know what it was, but I was covered. My back, my chest, acne, I started losing weight. Today I walk around like 185, 190 pounds. And at my worst, I dropped to 120 pounds. So it was just like, you know, 23, 24, 25, getting worse and worse. And I had, God had blessed me with a career. I mean, when I was 22, I left that job. I took a one way ticket to California. I left this big job. I became a waiter in Los Angeles. You know, I left a big job with a 401k and, you know, a road to six figures. I left it all, became a waiter, got fired for my first waiter job. It made me laugh because I had a big job. And then they said, you couldn't cut it. You can't sell fish and wine, man. You're not good enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Would you get fired?

Dane Johnson:
for? I couldn't. I wasn't really good at reciting all the matchings of the wines with the different fish in Iran because I was working for reselling Oracle Software and they were begging me to stay because I was the youngest employee to get a promotion. I had gotten a raise in six months. I had asked for more money right out of college and my numbers performed best on the team reselling Oracle Software to the Department of Defense. They were excited. They wanted an IBM. There was another section was trying to get me. So I was, you know, barely my nose was up high, you know, and then I move. I say, no, I'm going to go live my life. This is my one time in life to go live and really just be myself is one of the happiest times in life. I just got diagnosed with UC. And then, you know, and I said, that's it. I got a chronic disease. I'm miserable out here. I got my degree. I got a year under my belt of office work and I got a resume, then get fired for my first waiter job. You know, when I moved to that, you know, hindsight, 2020, it did teach me a lot about my health. I'll get to. But, you know, I just was wanted out. I wanted I'm in California now. I'm living my own life. I've got like, you know, $4 ,000 to my name. And you know, I paid off a good portion of my debt for that year. I just put all my money towards the debt. But I just kept getting worse and worse. And you know, the 15 bound moments, the 20 bound movements, the chronic pain, so it felt like I was pooping glass and I started getting scared not to be around a bathroom. And as you said, Melanie, that made my story. We could take a whole, you know, hour on it. I want to trim it up for what's important for people to listen to. But God had blessed me with a career in acting and modeling. And I always thought maybe I could do it. So I went out there and I tried and I worked out it and shook hands and talked to people and figured things out. And I got signed with some of the biggest agencies in the world. And I started working with really good, clean commercial stuff like I was working for Nautica and Patagonia and Tommy Hilfinger. And I was working for, you know, Skechers and, you know, a lot of smiling young dad stuff as well. And so I was getting jobs like, oh, you got a job offer in Florida and Germany and Switzerland and Sweden. I'm going, this is all amazing, but I can't be without five minutes from a bathroom. And so that's a whole thing. And, you know, I was basically hiding it every once. So I didn't give up my career. I got booked for a 10 day job in Jamaica, OK, to shoot the Sandals Resort. Have you ever seen that commercial? I was one of the main guys in it where it's like a couple out on their vacation. So they paid for me to go out to Jamaica for 10 days. And I was on Prednisone. I had my mom actually had to wheelchair me to the airport. I mean, I was that bad. And when they saw me, I had lost 20 pounds from the casting. A month prior where they upset, they looked at me like, are you OK? You look a little skinny. I was just wearing baggy shirts. I told them, you know what I told them? I told them I was in Europe and Paris doing fashion shows and all that. And they wanted me skinny. I'm not kidding. It's a real story. And on set, we're shooting a commercial on set. I'm running off set into the jungle to take a crap and they're going, what's wrong? And I go, it must have been something I ate. I feel nauseous is what I told them. I mean, I am like double seven. I am hiding everything. I mean, and I did that for years. I mean, until one time I got booked just off my pictures, you know, because you get magazine pictures and commercials and one of my and I had agents all around the world and they called me and go, oh, this guy wants to build a fitness line around you and you're going to make all this money. It's going to be great. He just wants updated Polaroids on you. Well, I'm covered in acting. I'm 40 pounds lighter than my pictures. So my my and then I just I started just crying. I just lost it. I was in there with shout out to my booker at the time. My name was Chandra. I just thought my career was over. And it wasn't just about like the ego of like, I got this career. This is my one time to be a series regular or do all this. It was my freedom. It was that I could go off. I mean, it was one to my life. I was only going to be 20 something for so long. I was only going to have this experience one time. I wanted to live in California. I didn't want to go back to Virginia. So to get too sick was to give up my life in California and not have the money because I didn't come from a wealthy family where I would have to then just move back in with my mother and I did in Virginia. I didn't want to do that. So it was it was deeply like I had failed to let it go. And I just I I was I was a two faced person. I would put on this. I mean, I did a live on Good Day L .A. with Tommy Hilfinger himself. And I was literally losing vision as as I'm on the I'm on live television, you know, and and I weighed 142 pounds, six to in one of Tommy suits. He's like, you look good. I'm like, great. Thanks, Tommy. You know, and and so there was a lot of moments we could really go over that. Maybe one day, you know, I'll write all those stories. But it was like I was I was depressed, angry, anxious, hiding. You know, Marilyn Manson's makeup artist was working with me in Puerto Rico once. And I had to meet me two hours before set every day to to cover my body and makeup so they couldn't see all the acne. And I didn't fit. I didn't fit the clothes. So I kept trying to eat, but I couldn't gain weight. I was so upset. I was so angry And it was just getting worse. And then I was on set for uh doing uh, a show in same santa barbara For ug and then i'm literally shivering in a hot tub And i'm gonna tell you what the root causes we're gonna get to that. So i'm i'm cold sweats I cannot keep warm my vision's going in and out and i'm supposed to lead a fashion show with like all these executives around the world outside And i'm supposed to be like looking cool and fit, you know, and I go to the main um sierra I go to the art director. I've worked with them for six years, you know three times a year And and I said sierra. I I think I need to go to the hospital. I just told her I said look i've been pooping blood I'm underweight i'm shivering. I can hardly even stay awake She said don't worry about dane go and I was like blacking out as I was driving to the hospital I'm calling my mom. I I feel it was like worse than a dui I could not drive but I had to get to the hospital So i'm driving from santa barber back to l .a Because I gotta get back to where I kind of live and also i'm under sag after insurance Which really wasn't that good because I hadn't really built as much as had a lot going on as an actor yet at that point And so my insurance sucked and so I just drove straight I got stopped and got some emergency packets just to try to keep my brain working And I drove to the uh ucla clinic And then i'm there for like two hours, right two three hours and they're pumping me with morphine Which is like, you know, it's legalized heroin Basically, they're pumping me with morphine to help calm down the pain and calm down my body They put me in it But they're kind of keeping me in this chair and not move me into a room and then they come back and say look Your insurance doesn't cover you here in our er room So you're looking at a hundred thousand dollar bill of if you like eight to ten thousand dollars a day Depending on how long you need to stay. Do you want to stay and pay or you want to go? I said, you know bleepity bloop bloop bleep No Get me out of here They pulled me in an ambulance and sent me to cedar cyanide Two three hours later cedar cedar cyanide tells me the same thing your insurance isn't going to cover me So they sent me inland to a predominantly chinese hospital where I almost died And that was you know, so was suffering. I mean I was I was chronically sick and during that time I was I probably had already spent thirty thousand dollars on nash bat doctors I went to I flew out to mayo clinic So we would take we would fly out to different specialists and get a hotel room and pay for flights and food And then we'd go on google and read about supplements and diets and we'd go to whole foods and spend six seven hundred dollars You know, my sister was helping to pitch in and we were doing anything. I'd wake up My mom would be giving me almond milk and gluten -free cereal You know because that's what I lived on. I loved cereal when I was a kid So the big point in all this guys, you know, it you know when I bring it up, i'm kind of reliving it It makes me emotional But you know, I almost died in that hospital and it was intense and my whole family flew out You know if you ever seen someone interview, I kind of can feel the emotions rising up You kind of relive that trauma. My body doesn't want to remember it and that's why i'm so passionate about what I do now And i'm so convicted is i've been through it. I'm not a guy talking from an ivory tower I'm not someone who just is just in the books talking about the clinical. I live it. I breathe it I'm on the i'm on the field like a like a general I fight along with you guys. I really do this Yeah, my whole family flew out. I almost died in that hospital December 14th 2014. That was 10 years ago coming up And my mom actually helped save my life By calling all these different doctors and finding good for root issues We'll talk about you know Even like a ex -girlfriend had broken up had came and tried to help take care of me because it was like I mean it was it was really heart -wrenching like we had just broken up after three years Three months before I almost died. I mean talk about stress, right stress and energy has a lot to do with it I was on a feeding tube. I was on 200 milligrams of infused prednisone. I was on four antibiotics. I was on Intimio Intivio, I was on antiviral chemotherapy that actually saved my life That was eventually what we figured out I was on three grams of dilated and dilated is seven times stronger than morphine So if you ever taken morphine imagine 7x and then imagine the max dose of that So three grams of dilated is what you give to a cancer patient who's dying So I was floating. I was floating now. I don't remember a lot there. My mom says i'm talking to the window I i'm talking to my twin sister I don't have a twin sister, you know, I i'm saying crazy stuff I was stuck in that hospital bed for about 35 days and I lost the ability to walk because I went from a So at the at the show 35 days earlier at the show, I was about 178 180 pounds When I left the hospital about a week outside of the hospital when all that water retention from all the steroids started coming off I was 122 pounds that took about 45 days so about 45 days. I lost about 60 pounds And I didn't have and all the Skin on my feet was decaying off because of all the toxins in my body My body had nowhere to store it had no fat And I had such pain in my legs, but the muscles there was So if I got a massage the next day you ever had like severe muscle cramps from running 10 15 20 miles

Melanie Avalon:
I've had muscle cramps, not from running that many miles, but you can have some muscle cramps.

Dane Johnson:
You ever had like that muscle twitch up and you're like, Oh my God. You're like hitting your leg because it's twitching up on you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Oh, like the really, really pain, like the pure pain. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah. So that's how it felt kind of chronically for about an hour or two after any massage. Any movement in my body, it was, and then when I went to the bathroom still 10, 15 times a day, it felt like I was pooping glass and it felt like my colon was going to fall out of my anus. And so I'm 122 pounds. I look like a caveman. I've got a huge beard. I stink. My feet are like coming off. I'm in severe pain. You can't even give me a rub touch. And then I've lost really ability to talk because I can't listen to you. If you talk to me, I forgot what you say within half a second. I can't comprehend. I'm like brain dead, tongue sticking out, drooling, brain dead at this point. I've been on chemotherapy, Dilaudid, everything. And so even it took about a month for me to come back. So I was housebound for a year. The first month was just, you know, I couldn't watch. You ever seen the old Robin Hood cartoon movie? Yes. The conflict of that movie was too intense for me. So like, I couldn't handle any conflict, any kind of, there's a problem and we need to go fix the problem. So why? So I'm stuck on a couch. My sister is living with me. My mom and my sister are taking turns living with me to make sure I don't, you know, keel over. And I'm like, we cannot watch this. We watched Space Odyssey. Don't watch Lion King. No, I can't. I can't. I can't handle any, any conflict, like even dumb and dumber conflict. Like you didn't pay the gas man. Do you realize what you've done? I can't handle it. Like I need Space Odyssey. Tell me about Mars. That's it. Like you needed the Taylor Swift errors.

Melanie Avalon:
movie.

Dane Johnson:
My adrenals were so shocked, my nervous system was so shocked, I couldn't hear any conflict. The shock in my body was like, it was the strangest thing. I've never been there. But imagine being very stressed and watching a horror movie like, what am I doing? This is turn this off. It's kind of like that for everything. So yeah, it was hell and it was really hell and I fought my way back. And I remember when I almost was dying, it was like, I didn't really care anymore. I was just in pain and there was this one day I started just uncontrollably crying and it wasn't from the pain. I told the doctors it was from the pain. It was because my ex -girlfriend showed up. That was hard. When you get so sick and then you see how much people care for you, it's, ugh. So let me get myself back here. See when you relive it guys, that's the thing when you get on, you relive this stuff. It's really tough. So about a month, I started being able to move. Now, luckily, I had already in that four years from 23 to 27, I had decided I want to get natural medicine school. So I started looking at different natural medicine school. I looked at becoming a natural medicine doctor. I looked at the pros and cons. I talked to people who were already, you know, got their DO or DC or went and became acupuncturist or NDs. And I just looked at all this stuff because I knew I wanted to get involved in this. So I had already been practicing natural medicine for about a year, year and a half before I almost died. And that's why one of the reasons I was able to keep up in the shows and do all that is I did start seeing some results with diets and certain supplements and getting rid of certain toxins. I stopped drinking alcohol and I started working really closely with my naturopath professor. And so that kind of saved me until it exploded my face because I really didn't understand what I was doing to the level I do now. And so I know it's a long winded story, everybody. And I want to dive into being here to help you. You know, the big point is, is, you know, I spent a year rebuilding my 40 hours a week I was working, I was reading everything I could on functional medicine, I customized my own plan. I learned the assets of how to get real results and why I was failing before, which we can go over. And then about a year after that, I've been good sense. I've had some speed bumps, as I call them, where little things have happened, but nothing drastic. Nothing. That's I haven't taken a medication in 10 years. I have had no surgeries, despite every doctor telling me I had to get needed a full collect to me. And I work with people with surgeries. That's fine. We do fantastic results there. And we work with people with 40, you know, 40 years of Crohn's colitis. And I've been predominantly, I'd say 90 percent symptom free. I might have a little bit of something calm, loose stool, diarrhea, but no major issues, no major reactions. And I had a lot along the way. So as I got healthier, then I lived in New York City for three years and I had to figure out how to stay healthy without a bathroom around, without, you know, a lot of good clean air and being around EMFs all day long and not being home. You know, if you ever live in New York, Manhattan, you're not home from 8 a .m. till 10 p .m. That's just New York life. So there was a lot of trial and errors of how, you know, how to do all these things. I worked three jobs for three years in my 30s to build CCL. I built bootstrapped CCL. No, I never got a loan. I built it to be what I needed when I was chronically sick. And I've been viciously trying to figure out how to help the world with Crohn's and colitis and figure out what took me large amounts of money and large amounts of time and a lot of pain and suffering to figure out. Because if I had what I know now when I was that sick, I never would have got that sick.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, this is crazy.

Dane Johnson:
It's crazy. And so let's go back. I mean, one thing I want to give people about root issues I found, if I can give some people some value on that right now. When I was in the hospital, my mom was frantically calling every doctor I had ever met with trying to figure out why I wasn't getting better because antibiotics or prednisone had usually worked before. It wasn't working anymore. She called a doctor in Florida and this doctor, and I did colonoscopies with every doctor, right? Oh, you're in here. Let's do a colonoscopy. I was like, everyone's sticking some on my butt, right? I'm over that, right? I've done three. It actually just makes your microbiome worse. It disturbs the area. It can cause more issues with polyps. I mean, there's a lot going on with colonoscopies. I'm not saying they're bad, but there's a lot more than what's being discussed. And this one doctor said, in one of my samples, he found cytomega virus. Cytomega virus, CMV. He found CMV.

Melanie Avalon:
I had that too. That's so interesting.

Dane Johnson:
Oh, let's dive in. Okay. He said he believed that the CMV virus had taken over my body and my immune system could no longer control it. This also can happen to AIDS patients or cancer patients. Sometimes when you get chronically sick or the elders, like my grandpa didn't die. He had Alzheimer's. He didn't die of Alzheimer's. He died of pneumonia. His immune system couldn't protect himself from the pneumonia. Same thing happens with C. diff in the elderly's. What we see is that when a person's body gets so weak, these infections can kill them where other normal healthy people, it won't. My body had gotten so weak. It could be stress. It could be all these other things happening, but my body got so weak, it could no longer control the CMV. The CMV took over my body and that's why antibiotics weren't effective. That's why steroids weren't effective. That's why the antiviral chemotherapy saved my life. It started controlling the CMV. And then I woke up and I woke up. That's crazy. Isn't it? And then the doctors knew they called my whole family like he might not live the night. That's quote unquote what they told my mother. He might not survive the night. We don't know what to do. They didn't pick up the phone. Look, you guys are here for a reason. We need to be progressive. The worst mistake we ever did is delegate out our health. We need to be progressive about what is going on in our bodies. And I'm going to make that and through this whole podcast, I'm going to show that over and over again and prove it to you. We need to be the ones who know we need to be progressive and we need to be asking everyone more why and more what and more how. Don't just take someone's word for any of it. Because if my mom had made that call and done that, I'd be dead. On the other hand, if it wasn't for prednisone and TPN, I'd probably also be dead. So it's a combination of the natural, the functional, the conventional. You got to put it all together. That's what I've really done. During that year, I stayed on prednisone for a while and slowly tapered off. It was very hard for me to get off prednisone. When I was on 10, five milligrams, it took a long time. The doctor told me to just go 20, 10, zero. That was a mistake. If I go 20, 10, zero on prednisone, I'm back in a flare. I had to go 20, 17 and a half, 15, 12 and a half, 10, seven and a half, five, four, three, two, one, zero. That was that. My body was not addicted to it. And my body would freak. So that was my experience. This is not medical advice. So there's a lot going on there. So CMV was an issue. Now, once I started during that year, the biggest asset I had when I was stuck in housebun for a year is I had already decided that I was going to heal. I had already made up my mind that I could heal, that I would heal, and that I was going to use natural medicine, but I was also going to be open -minded enough to use conventional where I thought it could suit me. So the biggest shift I made in that year is I took the seat as the CEO of my health. Before, it was my GI doctor. We just followed what he or she said. And we got three or four GI doctors looking for them to serve as the CEO. Oh, Mayo Clinic, they're the best. We're just going to do what they tell us. Well, that didn't work. They were telling me food didn't matter. Same thing, cedar sign I said, same thing UCLA said. But if I did fasting, I saw the needle move. And I remember going to a doctor saying, hey, Doc, I had 20 bowel movements on average last week. I did some fasting. And then the day after I fast, I only had 10 bowel movements. Is there a correlation? Doc says not. Young idiotic sir, there's no correlation. Leave the thinking to me. have felt like that. And there was a correlation. It was an obvious correlation. And I'm not saying we all just need to fast for the answer. We can go over that, but we know the needle can move. If you see the needle get worse with stress, that means that the needle can move better with meditation and gratitude and love. If you see the needle get worse with processed food, that means the needle can get better with clean food. The law of relativity states for one thing to be true, its opposite must be true. And that is what I hung my hat on when I was sick as I knew I doubled down all chips in that I could affect my health. That I had a say and I was willing to do everything. Okay. So I'm going to give you some of my laws that I created in that year. Okay. I had a full time job. Get myself healthy. There's no failure. There's no quitting me. I almost died from this. I'm backed into a corner and you're going to hear a tiger start roaring. That's what I want to give you right now. You got to own this. I don't care if you're 16 right now, 18, 25, 40, you are the CEO of your health right now. I bestow it upon you. You're going to take full responsibility for everything that happens in your health, but you're also going to build your team. Okay. You drive the ship. Okay. It's not your fault. This happened to you, but it is for damn sure your responsibility. That was my biggest change right there. It's not my fault, Dane. I got to forgive myself that this happened. You're not supposed to be sick. Okay. Say this to yourself. I'm not supposed to be sick and it's not my fault that this happened and I am overwhelmed and I need a better team and I am willing to take responsibility and I love and accept myself anyways. Let's move forward. Start with the mind. First thing you got to do when I sat and I got that conviction. Okay. When you build conviction, you will act, the fog will start to clear. Okay. I've been in those shoes when you are sick and you need to get healthy, the fog will clear the moment you decide. I know it's crazy. It's divine energy. You got to get conviction. The energy of conviction needs to live in you because with conviction, certain answers become obvious. Watch this, Melanie. It's so obvious. When I got convicted, I came up with some laws that I never did for the years prior. I'm only going to eat what I cook. That's not hard. It's just hard to stick with with our lifestyles. I got so convicted and I was so sick and I was housebound that now that was going to be my truth. I don't know if I should be meat, plants, AIP, carnivore, SED, low FODMAP, vegan. I didn't know. I was in a very similar situation to you guys. I don't know, but I know that if I prepare everything that I eat, I'll learn quicker. I'll understand the variables better. It'll be cheaper because I also can't. work, it'll be cheaper and I'll be more likely to get better results. Here's the law. Here's the underlying law I want everyone to start with. If you're that sick or you really want to be convicted, if it can't hurt me and it can only help me, do it. That was my conviction. I mean, I'm talking. I was really screaming it from the mountaintop. If it can't hurt me and it can only help me, do it. So it just put away your shame. Prayer. I'm praying to God every morning and night. Why? Because it can't hurt me and it can only help me. It doesn't have to be, you know, the religious argument. Just give up that energy somewhere. Have a faith in something, right? And so I just decided to do that. Meditation can't hurt me. It can only help me. I didn't want to meditate. My match path professor was always telling me, you got to meditate. You got to meditate. Okay, fine. So I used to, then I started learning how to stack. So every, you know, every day I get an Epsom salt bath. I'd be reading a book and I do meditation and I knew I had engaged the parasympathetic nervous system when I started salivating. How do you know when you're in the rest and digest mode and you're signaling your cells to heal when you salivate? A lot of people don't know that. That's why when you're getting a really good massage, you're going to start drooling.

Melanie Avalon:
That's interesting. I've never heard that. Like ever.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, all these little hacks by Nd Tommy that I said you the man good one So that's one to know and that's another thing when you're meditating Actually, if you can start to try to get yourself salivating and you practice that you'll engage the parasympathetic Because that's the rest in digest mode when you're in the parasympathetic your body creates more digestive enzymes. Those enzymes lives in your saliva Your heart rate naturally goes down. You're not going to be able to salivate and have 120 your heart rate going at 120 per minute, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, yeah.

Dane Johnson:
Beats per minute. So the little things, like, and I also, I started figuring out how to make what I wanted feel good. That's layer two, let's keep going over the laws, okay? Only what I cook, I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna journal. It's obvious when you're convicted, five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the night, Dr. Dane's gonna see patient Dane twice a day, how'd you do? So I'm praying, you know, and I got my prayer from Jordan Rubin, if you're into IBS, IBD, and you should definitely be reading his books. His books helped save me, and I'll tell you, I was actually doing a one -on -one call with Jordan Rubin a month ago, and I manifested that, because I'm gonna pardon with the man. He helped save my life. His books were huge for me. And he had a prayer in there, and I just read it morning and night, in his book, The Maker's Diet. And he calls it, makers as in God, Jesus, The Maker's Diet, right? And a lot of his emotional spiritual really is what I connect to now, even more than the diet he puts in there. But I read that, I would then do aromatherapy, and then I would sit down and I'd journal about what was gonna go on. So how did my night go? And then how's my day gonna go? And when you journal and you hold accountability, you'll figure out, wow, I had way more bowel movements than I thought. I ate way more crap food than I thought. I had to wait more snacks than I thought. I didn't have enough water today. I really wasn't good on taking supplements. This is the accountability of it. And then if you're doing too much, you just gotta calm down on what you say you're gonna do day to day. You're just trying to do too much. So you gotta calm it down, because consistency is worth more than perfection. That's also layer two. I want you to be consistent more than perfect. You come and you listen to these podcasts, there's 5 ,000 things you can do. Calm it down and get consistent with what gives you ROI. So I'm gonna journal every day. I'm gonna eat what I cooked. I'm going to put on positive music. I refuse to watch dramatic killer movies. I'm not watching crazy intense aliens or Terminator or none of that. I'm watching comedies. I'm looking to laugh. I'm listening to Bob Morley. So another thing is I created my, I called it my I'm already healed. I'm already healed playlist. There's another hack. Create a playlist and put 20 songs in there that make you smile and make you wanna sing along. The trick is, is that you find yourself skipping a song, you have to delete it and replace it with a new song. You're always signaling happiness. You were telling yourselves, you were telling your body, I'm safe, I'm good, I'm happy. Another thing, especially when you're housebound or in a wheelchair or something like that, get stuff on your schedule. Every day I was booked. I'm gonna call my best friend from college. I'm gonna call my childhood friend. I'm gonna help this person out. Even though I was chronically sick, I could get on the phone and talk to someone about their relationships. I got positive energy. Hey, Rory, what's up, bro? Are you thinking, yeah, you guys doing well. You've been together for two years. How's it going? How you feeling? I'm not gonna just constantly talk to people about my problems. I wanna help people solve their problems. The more I condition being a problem solver, the more I'm gonna come back to my life and be a problem solver. Practice being a problem solver, okay? Another point on that, if you're gonna tell someone a problem, tell them a solution. That was big. For years, every day I talk to my mom, I tell her what was wrong. I tell her how angry I was. God smited me. I never deserved this. Why do I have to eat like this? Why is no one else dealing with this? Why am I the only one dealing with this? When I became CEO and I decided I was no longer going to allow myself to feel like a victim and feel sad, you gotta get rid of those feelings. And it's not like you can just change it in your mind. You have to condition it. We could literally stay here for two hours because everyone listening, you have to condition. It's like a workout. You don't live for biceps one day. It's every day that that muscle is gonna grow. It's the same thing with positive thinking and about getting rid of depression, anxiety, worry, doubt, fear, resentment, all that happens when you're chronically sick. It's a vicious cycle. So you just gotta start being healthy before you actually feel healthy. Being is what you're doing in the present moment. Eckhart Tolle, read it. So that's why I love reading, okay? So you gotta feel good. You gotta practice the feeling good. So I'm not gonna watch it. I'm gonna listen to Bob Marley. Luckily I lived in Southern California. Doors are open, sun's in. I found other things. What makes me feel good? I started gardening. at 24, 25 years old. old. Like today I still take care of 80 plants. I'm growing tomatoes, I'm growing cucumbers, spinach, basil, you know, I'm growing strawberries, I'm picking it. Today my son was helping me plant some chamomile and some cilantro yesterday because it gets us outside, it gets us hands in the dirt, it gets our feet in the ground. So it feels good. Like I can do that at home. Another huge hack, reading. People don't realize this, okay? If you're listening to this in your car right now, you can do multiple things while you're listening. But if you're reading a book, you have to be present with reading the book. Meaning if you listen about cognitive issues, 90% of our thoughts out of the 40 ,000 thoughts we have a day, last time I read on the stats, 40 ,000 thoughts a day, 90% are the same thoughts on repeat. If you're reading a book on health, on manifestation, on positive vibration, on letting go of pain, anger, anxiety, doubt, fear, you know, I'm going to die, all this. If you're reading that, you can't think about your problems and read that book at the same time. You'll lose your place. So that's where I said, oh my God, this is brilliant. Just the act of reading is replacing my thoughts with this brilliant author's thoughts. If you hire Tony Robbins one -on -one, it's going to cost you a million to $2 million. But his book, five bucks, it's his voice. Let his voice sink into your spirit 20 minutes a day. Dr. Susan Blum, Eckert Tolle, right? Joe Dispenza, one of the best books I read on mental and all this manifestation, Dr. Joe Dispenza, Breaking the Habit of Being Myself. That headline literally says what we're talking about now. You have to recondition how you think the positivity. And it's a condition just like the gym. If you lay off of it, you're going to start getting those negative thoughts because it is impossible to cure a bad day or any disease because all energy can come and go. I'm feeling bad. I got diarrhea. I got a headache. I got bleeding gums again. I got acne again. It comes and goes. Energy comes and goes. None of it's eradicated. Cure means eradicated. So life is about a conditioning of balance. The body is a balance. So we have to get back in balance with our body. And that's a repetition. That's a consistency. So journal, positive energy. Learn how to identify negative energy. One thing is I talk to people who get me all angry and upset and it'd make me worse. I'd have more symptoms when I was upset. I know everyone listening feels the same. You get stressed, you get more symptoms. So when you're around negative energy, you need to learn how to either A, get away from it, or change that negative energy. You got to manipulate energy. When I was chronically sick, walking around with a cane, 135 pounds, trying to rebuild myself, I was fierce. There is no negative energy allowed around me. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it. And if I was around it, I couldn't just yell at someone because I'm being negative and angry. I realized this with my mom. She's telling me what to do. I start screaming at her. I know what I'm doing because I almost died. And I started getting shooting pain as I start arguing with her on the phone. And that's what changed my mind that every day when I talk to my mom, I'm just going to tell her what's good. I'm not going to keep telling her I still have blood. I'm going to tell her that the blood is 30% down. You get the difference? Hey, how are you feeling, Dane? Oh, I still have blood. No, that's negative. And that's stressful. My blood's 30% down from two weeks ago. I'm winning. I'm happy. I'm there. If I can get a 30% down, I can get a 70. Mom, this is what I'm excited about. Every mom listening right now wishes their son or daughter would be like that. Everyone listening for the significant other wants the positive energy creates positive energy. Stop enrolling people and enrolling people in what's wrong and start enrolling them in what's right. Because it's the law of attraction. You keep telling people things are going to happen. It's more likely to happen. That's read the law of attraction, the secret. It's an energy. If you want to stop feeling bad, you've got to start acting in ways that create a spark for positive feelings. Feelings are emotions, energy in motion. Your spirit has these feelings that can be changed based on experience, not just thought you can't talk yourself out of feeling bad. So I can go on tangents all day about the mind, but it really is the biggest thing for long -term success when you're on that battlefield. You start there, and then you have to start building what I call your daily blueprint. What is your plan? You've got to get balance because when you say you're going to take these supplements or eat this way, it's emotionally taxing. It's very difficult. When you're going to intermittent fast and do a 12 -hour or 15 -hour schedule, it's emotionally taxing. You have to condition yourself with it. Is that not true, Melanie? When you tried fasting, was it much harder then than it is now, emotionally?

Melanie Avalon:
Definitely. Now it's just second nature.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, and so, but it's a conditioning. The first few times you did it, and you probably talk about it with people, that it's tough. And that you have to find that positive energy elsewhere. Okay, and we can go on tangents about that. I'll say one with food. I had to replace the desire for gluten and processed foods with the desire of freedom. It's a replacement, it's not a sacrifice. See, if we invest $100 instead of buying those new sneakers, what is the positive energy? I am investing in my financial freedom moving forward instead of the immediate sneaker. Same with food. I am investing on getting back to my shape, getting rid of this bloating, getting rid of these skin issues, getting rid of these migraines, getting a clear mind, getting natural energy. I don't need three cups of coffee a day. Being confident and happy in my own body, and not needing to use a restroom, not worried about stool, not worried about inflammation. And that means more to me than anything. And so every time I eat that healthy food, I'm just investing in that freedom. And then I give myself, you did this, Dane, so now let's go get some sun. Now let's go out and hang out with our friends. My goal was not to be able to add back in gluten. My goal was to be able to go out to a restaurant and see my buddies, even if I'm not eating what they're eating. Or go to a bar, even if I'm not drinking. I just wanted to be free. I was stuck to a bathroom. So what are you investing in? What is your desire? Forget the fear. What are you gonna get out of this? What are you gonna give yourself that you're excited about? That needs to be part of your daily blueprint. What you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, make sure you can be consistent with it. I'd rather you do less and be consistent than try to do too much that's overwhelming you. As you get better at this, you're gonna naturally want to stack. Melanie, as you practice, have you found that you can handle more protocol, do more biohacking, read more books, and ask yourself to do more in your day to day.

Melanie Avalon:
Definitely. And also a quick comment to that. I definitely went through a, because you were talking earlier about how, you know, trying all these different things and this idea of, you know, if it can't hurt, it can only help, then you do it. I had the struggle or the experience of like feeling like I needed to try all the things. So even if I thought it couldn't hurt and could only help, I got overwhelmed with thinking I had to do all these things to be getting better. So I had a really interesting evolution of trying to do all the things and feeling like I had to do all the things to like letting go of some of that. And then finally coming back to a place where now the way I see it is I do the things that I know enhance my life, but I tell myself I don't need them. Like I don't have to be doing them. It's like a mindset shift that has really helped me personally.

Dane Johnson:
Beautifully said because you're you change the fear to a desire exactly yeah, so everyone write this down get rid of I need and replace it with I want.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I love that.

Dane Johnson:
no longer. If you ever hear yourself, even today, I still catch myself. If I ever come out and say, man, I really need, I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, I really want.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So that's something, yeah, that you do.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, because its need is an anxiety. I need more money. I need to get more time. I need to get a babysitter for these kids. I need to find more sleep. I need more time for my friends. It's all anxiety. Watch this. I want to find a babysitter with the children and be in balance with it. I want to be able to hang out with my friends and make sense of that time balance. I want to have more time that I can meditate and be with myself. I want to have more time with my wife. It opens up a how. It opens up a question. It's conversational. It brings credence to the date night. If you tell yourself another what you need, all they're hearing you is complain. If you tell them what you want, you're opening up a conversation for brainstorming. So desire, lead with desire, not fear is huge for me. And one of my first e -books I wrote, one of the chapters was, don't be surprised if you catch me eating a burger and fries. And it was because I had to break free of this idea that I had to be this perfect. It was one of my biggest fears when I really became an IBD specialist is I had to be this perfect eater that never did anything wrong. And I'm like, straight edge is all because that's what's expected of me. And it wasn't, you know, for me, I actually, this is way down the road for you guys, but I want you to be able to eat whatever you want. I want you to want to eat well and not poison yourself. So that's the thing. I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want. But I rarely ever choose to poison myself. That's true for people with IBD or regular gut health. If you're having, you gotta, it's a conditioning. So when you get educated about food and you get educated about processed foods and convenience taxes found in anything that you have to open, a wrapper you have to open, there's a convenience tax, I call it. And a convenience tax means if it's easy and it's made simplified, you don't have to cook it, there's something that's gonna tax your body. The latest research is gonna tell you something someone's gonna come out and finally say, oh, nope, that package has this. It's in everything, okay, it's a convenience tax. So when you can change that, but I wanna really dive into some of the like really big takeaway physical things people could start utilizing. Because I know maybe for you and I, Melanie, this stuff really hits home because it's so big for the growth. It's like for me, I just say it's like church. It reignites my spirit, it reignites my why. It gets me excited, it connects me with the community. I wanna work with you guys. I want you to win and me to win because I want our team to grow. I wanna be able to see you and talk about, hey, what solutions have you found and what place? I imagine a network in the future where no matter what town or city we go into, we have people working on creating good restaurants with no seed oils and no processed foods and no glyphosate and building conscious companies around these solutions. I wanna pardon with people who are inspired like this. Those are the friends I wanna be around. Those are the people I wanna go to dinner with. I'm interested in what you have to say. You know, I wanna be inspired by you. I only wanna be influenced by people who are happier or healthier than me. Not richer, not more Instagram followers. I don't give two craps about that. I wanna be around people who are happy and healthy. You know, those are the two things I look for. And so, you know, here are the things that I found. So when I got out and I started looking deep diving into functional medicine, I've been working in functional medicine about 10 years, and I've worked with a few thousand people with Crohn's and colitis. We put out a testimony of completely reversing people's symptoms once a week. That's how much we do this. We only see Crohn's colitis. We see about 130 clients a week with Crohn's colitis, and we see people all around the world. We have testimonies in Africa. Our youngest testimony is six years old. I've worked with a three -year -old. Our oldest testimony is 67 with 42 years of Crohn's, five surgeries. Yeah, we do it all. This is what we do. Everyone on our team, all our coaches and practitioners have Crohn's colitis themselves. So we live it, we breathe it, we own it, and we customize it. We work with vegans, we work with meat eaters, we work with people who AIP, we work with people whose goal is to be able to eat whatever they want again, whatever it is. You've got to decide what your North Star is, right? And so here are the things, the big things I found physically and the functional side of things that were really big problems that the doctors at Cedars -Sinai, UCLA, Mayo Clinic never mentioned to me, okay? The biggest one that you can get ROI on is a quantitative, just to start with, is a quantitative PCR stool analysis. I like to use the GI map. Some people will use Genova, a gut zoomer by Vibrant America, GI 360. There's a lot of them out there. And they're all pretty similar with a little differences, little color changes. But when I did that, I found large amounts of H. pylori. H. pylori is a bacteria that can cause low stomach acid, can cause ulcerations, can cause bleeding, can also be linked with SIBO because when you have low stomach acid, you're more likely to get bacteria overgrowth and fungal overgrowth, especially in the small intestine. And that can have a cascade of problems. So as you go over this, guys, remember that the body, it works like in a big circular motion. It's a moving circular motion and one thing gets off, it causes a cascade effect. So as symptoms, you could go, oh, I'm overwhelmed, I have so many symptoms, but once you fix one thing in that circle, usually a lot of things get better. So everything tends to get better or everything tends to get worse, you know? And so that was an upstream problem for me, was no one had ever told me I had a large amount. Now when I tested H. pylori and did a stool antigen chest at the conventional doctor, it had tested negative because they can only find what's called mid E to the fourth or greater, okay? Well, the PCR had showed about low E to the fourth. So it was coming up negative with the doctor's technology, but it was coming up positive with the PCR technology through functional labs. And also H. pylori, and this is deeper level understanding, is that it can be in biofilms, it can also burrow in the gut, so it can be hidden in your body and actually have much larger levels. Found H. pylori, I found large amounts of candida that was linked, in my opinion, to the skin issues, one of the problems with the skin. Why was I breaking out an acne everywhere? I was bathing in Neutrogena, you know? And today, with all the people who have helped with their skin issues, I could literally run a Neutrogena ad with all the skin I've cleared, working on the liver and the microbiome and the hormones and the food, right? And so I found large amounts of candida. I had a young, I'll give you a quick case on that, I had a young man in LA, and he had the best PPO insurance, he had a great job, multi -six figures, he was on prednisone, he was on biologics, 20 bloody bowel movements a day, about to get his colon removed because the steroids and biologics weren't working, doctors didn't know what to do. He starts working with me, I do a stool test on him, and I immediately find four times the normal threshold of candida, right there in an at -home, non -invasive stool test. And you gotta remember, just like mold or viruses, look at COVID, some of us, we don't have responses to it. We're freaking out to it. One person's in the R room from COVID, one person, no problem. It's the same thing with candida, it's the same thing with mold, it's the same thing with parasites, it's the same thing with all these things. I had a three -year -old with massive amounts of gliotoxin, we got rid of the gliotoxin mold, her gee, I heard calprotectin went normal. So that's the thing is a lot of times it could just be that you have a massive infection and no one's looking at it or no one's seeing it and the lab's insurance companies aren't really covering it. And most of the time, I don't know about you guys out there, but the doctors aren't running these tests. And even when they run a test, they don't go over the test with you, they just go, yep, nope, we didn't see anything. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, show me the test. That's what a functional doctor's also gonna do with you. They're gonna interpret and show it for you. And for me, I wanna actually train you on the ABCs of lab tests, so you can do them yourself whenever you want. Because we can actually order you a lab test in Dubai, Canada, America. We can do Australia all over the world. We can get you a stool test and you can order it on your own wholesale price. That's something we do. So, you know, that you can see. You can see, you know, pancreatic enzymes that can give you an idea of low stomach acid. You can see fat malabsorption. You can see zonulin for leaky gut. You can see dysbiosis. You can see really bad infections like campylobacter, Giardia, C. diff, toxin A or toxin B. So it's not a perfect test, but a lot of times I can just find obvious stuff right there. And anyone out there, I definitely look at, if you wanna invest in your health and you haven't done a stool analysis, it's a really good place to go. If you're on a budget, then I'd first work with a coach and build a plan, do that for a couple of months, then spend money on labs. Because labs are expensive if insurance doesn't cover them. Insurance doesn't cover most functional lab tests unless you have a really, really great doctor who's really cool and hip, but still very rare. And so that was, I found H. pylori. I found candida, the cytomegalovirus. Now the cytomegalovirus was the biggest one because that's what was killing me. So when I calmed that down, now I just had really bad IBD, but I wasn't life -threatening. So now I had the star, I started working on candida. I started working on the H. pylori. I had very low short -chain fatty acids, butyric acid. I had very low beneficial bacteria. I had very low stomach acid. I also found, later on, I found parasites. I tested positive for blastocystis hominis and cyclospora, I also tested positive for, so I had to work on parasites. Another problem that my skin was telling me that I later found out is I had severe drainage issues. My liver was so backed up. I had very low bioproduction. My lymphatic system wasn't working, especially when you're bed rested and you don't move. That's some of the vicious cycle. Because you get so sick and you don't move, well, your lymphatic system tends to work better when you're jumping up and down, or you're walking, or you're exercising, or you're sweating. Okay, so that gets the lymph to move, or pressure, like H -bot, hyperbaric oxygen chamber can also help that pressure or scuba diving can help push toxins out of the lymph, which also can help with anxiety, PTSD, or migraines. So a lot of times it could be a lymph issue, or it could be magnesium, salt issue as well. So you start to see all these problems. So, you know, I'm 30, $40 ,000 into this. I've gone to every major doctor, and no one showed any of that. No one found any of that, or even talked to that, or even looked for it. So that was really the big thing I want to say is there's so much underlying. And I want to say this is a big point, Melanie, and for everyone listening on this. When you get diagnosed with a disease, and someone says it's incurable and we don't know what causes it, and then you just look at the actual mechanics of the gut, you start to see that it's not just a root cause you're looking for, it's root causes, it's root issues. And no matter what disease you're looking at, specifically with autoimmune, I mean, I specialize in Crohn's class, so I'm specifically talking about that, but any autoimmune disease, nine times out of 10, I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar, if we look deeply at your systems, we're going to find problems. Here are the top problems we're going to find. Beyond the pathogen infections we just talked about, that's a core problem driving autoimmune, but here are other basic fundamental problems of how your body is not working, like an engine. With autoimmune disease, I am finding commonly low stomach acid. Commonly, you are not breaking down food well. And guess what that stomach acid's doing? It's also helping to kill off bacteria and parasites and other infections that are now going unchecked into the rest of your GI. It's also causing problems with food sensitivity. Why is it, Melanie, most of us grew up, we were fine with bread, we were fine with a little bit of milk, we were fine with a little bit of peanuts, we were fine with a little bit of eggs, now we're all sensitive to it. We're not allergic, most of us were sensitive. See, I'm not allergic to those foods, but I couldn't tolerate any of it. Now, I could, my gut is strong enough that I could go eat an entire large Papa John's pizza pizza and my gut would be fine. Is it good for me? No, but my strength of my digestion, my microbiome, my gut lining, it can handle that damage, that poison. Before, I couldn't have a sip of water without a bloody bowel movement. So with low stomach acid, that's also affecting, it's part of the equation where we're getting more sensitive to food. Why is it dairy and gluten are the big two? Besides the glyphosate in the process and the A2 casein and the gliadin increase, The gliadin protein and the casein and lactose protein are the hardest to digest proteins. They're very dense. When you have low stomach acid, those are the type of foods that are gonna go unchecked through the stomach acid. So now you have partially digested proteins sitting in your small intestine that now need to be evacuated through the colon, causing more gas, more diarrhea, more cramping, and it's damaging your villi in your gut lining. So imagine all these little particles around your gut lining. Remember, your gut is 28 feet long. So it doesn't matter if you have IBD or not, that's a problem for all of us. As those undigested proteins go and try to be absorbed through the gut lining, they're big, they're dense, they're not supposed to be there. The gut then breaks itself apart to allow that to be pushed through, or it poops it out and that's where you get really nasty smelling gas and bowel movements and diarrhea, but it goes into the gut lining and that's why a lot of us are noticing derious causing acne. Because it's inflammatory, it's not being properly digested, and it's seeping into the bloodstream. And then it's backing up the liver because the liver is cleaning the blood. I can't remember exactly how many times, but I think, don't quote me on this, you guys can check online, but I think the liver cleans about 200 gallons of blood a day, something like that. So you've got all that. And then now you got damage to the gut lining where there's a cytokine reaction and then the mucosal membrane is also being weakened. So it's causing a downstream problem. So you've got to think upstream. So digestion is a big problem. Microbiome diversity. We're not eating from farms. Everything we eat has glyphosate. Glyphosate is destroying the microbiome. The more diverse the microbiome, it's already been clinically showing, the less likely COVID is gonna be a problem, the less likely food sensitivity is gonna be a problem, the less likely autoimmune is gonna be an issue. We're losing our diversity. And with the loss of diversity, we then can't control the bacteria causing SIBO. We can't control the fungus causing mold issues and other candida issues and fungal issues. So we're losing control of our environment, much like the forest, okay? So we need that diversity in there. The microbiome in the soil and the microbiome in the gut are very similar. We're losing the diversity in the soil and it's destroying our food on the planet and we're losing the diversity in our gut, it's destroying our gut. See the connection to the earth? We're human organisms. So microbiome diversity is a big problem. Second is that leaky gut. So that gut lining being inflamed in a weak mucosa membrane. So that's causing more downstream problems for everyone. Meaning, just because you don't have IBD or IBS doesn't mean you don't have leaky gut. So what is leaky gut? As those tight junctions and that gut lining are being weakened, destroyed, the membrane that separates the gut lining from the bloodstream is being winged out. It doesn't have the proper food, right? Like butyrate, probiotics, phosphatidylcholine are three foods for the gut lining. And since it's getting weakened out, the villi are then getting damaged and the villi get worse at absorbing nutrients. Right behind the villi is all of your cytokines. So the dendritic cells live there, the T cells live there. And that's where you're getting autoimmune disease because they cause the pro -inflammatory interleukin -6, interleukin -1 beta, TNF alpha, and IL -12, IL -23, all those cytokines start living right behind the gut. That's why they say the immune system lives in the gut. So right behind that damaged gut lining in the mucous membrane is all those cytokines, all that immune system. So now they're firing and firing. And that is connected, in my opinion, in my belief, with all autoimmune disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, diabetes, Crohn's colitis, of course, all these different forms, okay? So that's a core problem for all of us is the gut lining is not strong, the microbiome diversity, the digestion. Next is the liver. Almost all of us have a backed up liver. It is a core problem. I think Sinclair, she's doing a great job on this. She's really opening up. A lot of people are really opening up on this. But what's happening is our liver is getting overwhelmed with all these toxins. We're breathing in toxins, we're drinking toxins, we're eating toxins. As our liver gets backed up, we can't create bile. Bile is how the liver cleans itself. It attaches all the toxins to the bile and then dumps them into the duatum at the top of your GI tract, then to be disposed. So a lot of times with so much toxins, the duatum is at the top of your GI. So that means the toxins have to go through 28 feet of the GI tract to be exposed through the bile. They're getting reabsorbed into the body. They're not even getting properly dumped because the liver's overwhelmed and there's not enough bile production. There's not enough pancreatic enzymes. And we're cutting out our gallbladder is also a problem. Okay, and so the liver as it gets overwhelmed, we can't create glutathione. It causes more constipation. It causes digestion problems. Because without bile, you can't break down fats and you can't properly absorb your fat solubles. Vitamin A, D, K, E. Those are your fat syllables. So now, what's gonna happen? You're gonna see hormone issues. Okay, you're gonna see omega -3 to omega -6 issues. You're gonna see inflammation issues. You're gonna see cognitive function issues. Because if you can't properly utilize your fats, your brain's not gonna work. Your body's not gonna work. Your hormones are gonna work. It's a cascade. So liver, liver's a massive problem, especially if you believe that you have parasite issues or mold issues. Those two are gunk. It's like tar in the liver. Okay, and that's why people are allowed to talk about Castoril packs and coffee enemas and Nacetyl cysteine and tudka as a biosalt and bitters to help your body move and produce more bile. So there's so much going on in there. And even as you start dumping that out, and a lot of us, even if we're on a specific diet, we have these other core issues where the diet's not enough. Melanie, how many times have you talked to someone on a strict diet, but they're still having problems?

Melanie Avalon:
A lot.

Dane Johnson:
a lot, right? And so that's the thing is diet itself is only one stage. The whole point of diet is to reduce, you want to get rid of the toxins, right? The best thing you do with diet is defensive, get rid of the toxins, get rid of the inflammatory stuff. Okay? So the two things I want you to focus on with diet, whether you're plant, meat, whatever, the goal of it is it has to reduce or eliminate an inflammatory response from eating. So you're not getting an inflammatory response from the food you're eating. And number two is it needs to be bioavailable. Those are the two cardinal rules. I call it food philosophy. So in the shield program, what we do is we actually free you from a diet and we build a lifestyle that makes you happy and healthy. That's our mission statement with food, no diets. We build a lifestyle that makes you happy and healthy food philosophy. Food philosophy is measured by being able to have the self -empowerment to look at any plate of food and measure your ability to handle it. So can I look at that plate of food and assess its risk? So I coined that as I started trying to open up my diet because I couldn't have grains. And then I got scared of phytic acid, and arsenic, and Dave Asprey is making me scared of everything. And so I'm going back and saying, no, no, I have a normal gut. I want to prove it. I should be able to handle a bowl of oatmeal. That was my mission statement. It wasn't oatmeal is bad. I'm never going to eat it again. It was, I want a normal gut and a normal gut should be able to eat any of these foods properly prepared from the earth. So I should be able to handle an almond. I should be able to handle quinoa. I should be able to handle a red bell pepper and a tomato. Even though Gundry's got me scared of that. So it's like you look at all these diets and I'm telling you guys, this is how I've worked it out is my goal is to be able to eat whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want, but I need to use food philosophy to assess its risk. And I need to be strategic about can I really handle it and is it really causing a problem? And that's where lab work and all that comes in. But the stronger your microbiome, the stronger your digestion, the stronger your mucosa membrane, the more healthy your liver, your gallbladder, all those things. And the better you prepare the food without all the inflammatory stuff, you're going to be back to mother Teresa. You're going to be with the Italians, baby, having a good time. Give me whatever. Okay. Make it up, chop it up. It's all good, right? Get rid of all the nasty stuff. So, you know, that's my mission for you. I want to see, I want to desire that. I don't want to be scared of food. How many of you guys are done being scared of food? I want to be able to eat food from the earth. And I just assess, was it cooked in canola oil or soybean oil? I go to every restaurant. They're all cooking in trash. Where'd you get this chicken? Was it just fed corn its entire life and completely stressed out and given steroids to grow? And I mean, same with the fish. I mean, there's a lot of problems here. So, for me, it's not about just plant versus meat. It's the quality of the food and how it's prepared. That's the big thing we all need to get on the same page with. That's where you really start looking at what are the mechanics going on in the body. And you also, when you want to become a Jedi. So, if you're going, Dane, you've given me so much. I'm overwhelmed already. This is for that 10% who already know a lot of this stuff or are getting excited about it and want to take it to the next level. Here's the next level. You've got to change your relationship with how you feel about being a sick person. People who are chronically fasting and chronically on these diets, there's this deep feeling of also unsafety. Like, if you don't do it, you don't feel safe in your body anymore. You start to feel this inflammation. There's this lack of safety. I felt that about 18 months ago, I really started addressing that. And it's gotten better, but I still don't feel fully safe. To be completely transparent, I still don't feel fully, fully safe in my body. But from 18 months ago, I'd say it's about 60% better. you I'm sitting in Tahiti and I don't really have any symptoms, but I still feel like if I don't do all these things or take all these supplements to do that, that I'm not safe, that I'll be hurt again. Right, Mel? You get that, right? Now, me and Mel could probably just talk about this for hours because this is where we're probably at, so I want to give you some of what you're looking forward to. We have to re -trigger the relationship at a cellular level with our body of how we feel, feelings, like really address feeling. It's okay that you feel unsafe, but why? And start doing that. So, that's where I started doing EMDR, hypnosis, EFT are my three favorite. I think German New Medicine is cool, too. People have gotten results with it. I just think these are a little bit more, I don't know, there's more science behind it, more people are doing it. It's more broad. German New Medicine is more about tactics for IBD, but EFT tapping is emotional freedom technique. So, I meet with an EFT mental health specialist usually once a week, once every two weeks, and I'll tap on why do I not feel safe? I'll tap on why is this food thing? I'll tap on I'm going to, you know, whatever I'm scared of, or I just had a newborn baby, like my son is two months old and I'm freaking out over here, right? I'm tapping. So, from the lack of sleep and write that, so we're starting to release energy. Remember, that feelings are an energy. It's not physical. So, can you change the way you feel with just physical? Meaning my lab work, my supplements, my diet, my fasting, that's physical. You have to start opening up to the energetic side of it. You have to realize that energy actually transforms into physical. I'm stressed, turns into more bowel movements, right? Well, I'm at peace. I'm in love. I'm conditioning myself to let myself feel safe. Okay? And I'll do this right now for 10 seconds right now. I want everyone just to breathe for a second. And I want you just to try to feel the feeling. Just try to get the feeling of safety. Just practice right now. Feel it. Forget your truth or your reality. I'm safe. Imagine with all your best friends, it's the middle of the day, the sun is shining, you don't have to be anywhere, you're not worried about money, your job, you're not worried about what's on your plate, you're just here and you're safe. Feel that goodness. Just practice. Let it smile. Put a smile on your face because you can. Feel. Feel safe. If you've got that feeling right now, feel it, become aware of it, hold onto it and come back to me. We can change a feeling not just based on what we think reality is but because we choose it. You have to choose to wake up and condition a new reality and that's what hypnosis is helping with and that's what eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing is helping with and that's what emotional freedom technique is helping with. There's a signal at a cellular level that actually becomes physical. We need to send the signal to ourselves that we're safe, that we've arrived, that we're not meant to be sick and that we're okay and that needs to be conditioned and the more sick and the more suffering you've gone through, the harder it will be but you'll probably end up being a superhero for the world coming on and helping people like Melanie's doing. Usually the more suffering, the more superpowers and just realize that it's a balance. Let go of the idea that it's okay not to feel safe in a moment because in a moment in your life you're going to feel angry, you're going to feel lost, you're going to feel lonely. There's no way you're not. You can't eradicate those feelings. You will feel them again. You will feel like you're not as healthy as you want. It will happen. Just expect it. Make friends with it. It's okay. You can't eradicate any energy. There's going to be a day where you feel like you're not doing as well with your health. It's going to be a day where you feel like you're not doing as well with your marriage or your girlfriend or what's in the mirror. It's going to be a day you're not going to be doing as well with your food. That is called life. It's supposed to be there. The answer is balance. Can you feel it? Can you be okay with it and can you rebalance yourself? Winners win because of their best at rebalancing, not because they're the best at not feeling. The best winners in the world still feel loneliness. They still feel sick. They still feel off. They still feel like they're failing. It's their ability to respond to it that makes them winners. So again, the goal is not to eradicate anything. The goal is to respond. Can you stay in balance? If you stay in balance, you'll continue more often than not, send a chemical signal to your cells that you are safe and that you are okay. And your parasympathetic nervous system will engage. And studies show that when there's less stress, which is an energy, that there's less chance of cancer, there's less chance of disease, there's more likelihood of better microbiome diversity, there's more likelihood of better digestion, there's more likelihood that you're gonna stay married, there's more likelihood you're gonna have the best life. So whatever it is, the Jedi moment here is keep practicing the feeling, safety, happiness, love, gratitude. And that, when I bring it back, is why I decided to pray, because it changed the signal. Hope that helps.

Melanie Avalon:
I would say yes. That was amazing. Thank you so much. So have no fear, everybody. The show notes will have a full transcript of all of this. So what you were talking about with reading, people can actually go and read this and take it in and only take in that information at the moment. I'll also put a link. You mentioned tapping. I've had Nick Ortner on the show, I think twice. So I'll put links to that if you want to learn more about tapping as well. So how can people work with you and what resources do you have?

Dane Johnson:
You can check us out check out also the show note in the links. I'll send it to Melanie where you'll be able to apply for a strategy session to talk to our team about your case so we want to put our best foot forward for you. Are our plan is the shield program that stands for supplements herbs imagination exercise lifestyle and diet. We will build you a customized plan we will train you on these things we will train you on labs and protocol nutrition and customizing what you're gonna eat what you're gonna take and why you'll be part of a community. You have full access to talk with anyone in our community our community is free governing so we don't restrict you talk with other members on their results and we have different threads for moms and dads and people in india or europe or australia or people who you know are doing surgeries or fish a lizard fishers you name it. The show program also includes three months of private coaching with your ibd coach who specializes in this has the these themselves and only sees krone's colitis or ibs something around that nature 90% are a form of ibd so that can include microscopic colitis lymphocytic colitis and colitis you name it and so we really are our impact driven company. And when you come in you'll apply for a complimentary strategy session to talk with one of our sports specialist who also have ibd themselves i love our team i'll talk with either becky or kelly or erica or lindsay and all of them actually have. Had some form of ibd since they were teenagers in the role in their late twenties and early thirties or fifteen years of experience with this surgeries by logic you name it so we immediately want to put you on a phone with someone who can relate with you connect with you and really help you feel supported cuz i would've done anything to talk with someone who had krone's colitis when i was sick. And just you know how they started getting their life back and so you'll be able to do that and see if the shield program is right for you and if. And you can also see us on instagram krone's colitis underscore lifestyle calm or YouTube youtube .com slash krone's lifestyle me dane johnson one if you want to say hello to me and let me know you came from Melanie. You know if you click the link in the below will know you came from Melanie because we want to support you, we want to support Melanie and just know like you know. That money took this time and introduced me to you guys i want to build integrity and trust with you and so that will be the show program and we have other other values that you can do and you can work with us so just reach out to us let us know what you need and we will have a solution for you.

Melanie Avalon:
So again, these show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast .com slash episode 364. And that's where we will put links to everything that we talked about. All those resources will be there. Goodness, this was just so incredible. I really can't thank you enough, Dane, for everything that you're doing. And it's interesting because I remember when I had my own like rock bottom with health issues and I mean, I was not in the hospital for 35 days, but I was there for three days and it was not fun. And I remember thinking, I was like someday, well, I remember thinking two things. I remember thinking, I'll know I'm like on the up and up when I'm taking pictures again in public. Like when I'm at a restaurant and I have like pictures of me there with the family or like when I'm on social media again, because I was like so scared of like the world and like me and everything that was happening. So I had that moment. And then I had the moment thinking like someday I'll be grateful this happened to me like not right now, but someday. And I can truly say that now because I wouldn't be doing everything I I'm doing if I hadn't gone through those health challenges and hearing your story. I'm just so grateful for what you're doing. And sounds like you also wouldn't be doing everything that you know you're doing if you hadn't gone through that as well. So I'm just so grateful for you sharing your story and what you're doing. And it's incredible. I look forward to everything else that you have coming.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'll give you one that I was super grateful for. The day I could pee without having a bowel movement was like the biggest, oh my God, to like go into the stall and not have to like shamefully like run in there and release whatever is coming out. Like, you know, was so, oh my God. It was like, oh, I'm back. Thank God. Yeah, I'm grateful. And thank you for having me, Melanie. I mean, you put this together and you're the one who's putting the work in to create this, create this environment for us to grow and learn together. I just want, you know, I want to grow forward with trust and integrity. I want to serve people in Crohn's colitis. I want to do much bigger than even what we're talking about. We're going to build the most empowered Crohn's colitis community globally. We have big ideas. I want to create a win -win scenario for us. I am driven on impact, you know, connect this, whatever you need, please click the link in the show notes. We know you came from Melanie because we want to also support Melanie in that. And yeah, we're just here for you. And we know it's tough, but you're going to get everything you need to get real results coaching. We can get lab work around the world. Also EFT. I didn't mention this, Melanie. I actually just hired my EFT coach to come and do a free EFT session for a whole community once a week. So every week you can just jump on and do a live with her and she taps on everything, fear, optimism, doubt, worry, anger, and she does Q and A as well. And she's awesome. She has also colitis herself for 15 years. And then we have an ND who meets every week to go over like training on supplements and like stacks for constipation or different problems. So that's another thing we're adding is we're adding professors who just come on and do lives beyond your private coach. So we are thinking and we can ship supplements all around the world. You know, we're just doing big things and we're just really excited. And if you have IBD reach out, we want to, I know there's a lot of crap and craziness out there, but integrity and trust, that's what we focus on and we try to do our very best. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much, Dane. And so for listeners, Dane has an incredible generous gift for you guys. So if you think that this program is applicable to you, you can go to ifpodcast .com slash shield. And then when you go there, you'll fill out some intake forms. And if you qualify for the program, you will get a free intake session. And you said, how long is that session, Dane?

Dane Johnson:
usually about 45 minutes to an hour, you'll talk with your IBD sports specialist who also has had IBD and recovered from IBD and be able to talk to you about your case complimentary.

Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. And then if that resonates and you're fit and you actually do the program, then you also get a $400 supplement gift card as well to go with the program, which is amazing. And then Dane was telling me that the program includes three months of private coaching, and it's also a lifetime membership. Anything else you'd like to share about the program?

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, the biggest thing is we're building what we needed when we were chronically sick and it's about impact. That's the number one thing is we know you need a coach, you need a private coach, someone who specializes in IBD. You can really help customize your plan and how it's working and all the ebbs and flows. And we want it to be a one -stop shop. So yeah, you get $400 gift card included. So if we tell you to take a supplement, we're going to be paying for it already. So we want you to feel really good integrity with what you're getting and why. And you'll be getting free access to my live trainings every week. You get free access to EFT tapping with Rachel Turner every week. And you can talk to the whole community forever on your mobile or your desktop, all other members with IBD. It's a one of a kind where I think you're really going to be excited about it. We hope you take a look if you have IBD and you need support.

Melanie Avalon:
So amazing. I'm excited. So again, so listeners, the link for that is ifpodcast .com slash shield. So definitely check that out for that incredible generous gift. Dane, thank you so much. This was so amazing. I know we've like had this on the book for months and months. So it was so wonderful and beautiful to finally connect with you. And I'm just so excited to see everything, everything that you continue to do in the world. I can't thank you enough.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you for having me, Melanie. Amazing conversation. God bless. I hope everyone learned a ton today and let's move forward with positivity, optimism, integrity, and let's change the world. Thank you for having me.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Apr 01

Episode 363: Day Trips, Fasted Traveling, Cold Exposure, Sports Performance, Bloating, Low FODMAP Diets, Carnivore Diet, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Intermittent Fasting: Does It Affect Sports Performance? A Systematic Review

Welcome to Episode 363 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

MD LOGIC: Upgrade your gut health and well-being with MD Logic Health’s Dr.'s Choice Probiotic. Packed with Lactobacilli, Bifidobacteria strains, it's designed to support your gastrointestinal, immune health and much more. Dr.'s Choice Probiotic is tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all problematic filters, and comes in a glass bottle! Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

Go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference and use code BCMelanie for 30% off the 10th Annual Biohacking Conference Tickets. Ends March 31st (drops to 25% after that)

Metabolic Switching: An Intermittent Fasting Revolution with Dr. Mark Mattson - Part 1

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - What foods/supplements WON’T break a fast?

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Episode 354: Special Guest: Dave Asprey, Cold Plunges, Dopamine Fasting, Spermidine, Follistatin Gene Therapy, Sex, Fertility, And More!

Episode 358: Special Guest: Dave Asprey, Coffee, Minerals, Adrenal Fatigue, Wine, Coffee Enemas, Coffee Shops, Traveling, And More!

Listener Q&A: Xenia - My doctor told me to stop 16:8 IF when I had serious bloating issue... (then Emily said why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet, it is a lifestyle and once you see all the benefits you won't want to stop and Sacy said In my experience, bloating was food related. Think carbs like pasta, bread, chips. Tweak the food.

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Episode 347: Special Guest: Vince Ojeda, Gut Health, Food Sensitivities, Food Allergies, Dysbiosis, Fasting Mimicking, Elimination Protocols, IgG, IgE, IgE4, IgM, CD3, Food Antigens, And More!

Go To Victus88.Com And Use The Discount Code MELANIEAVALON For $55 Off Victus88 Testing!

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 363 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 363 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing wonderfully. How are you? I'm good. I had a meeting where I thought about you so much. Like, it was like a Vanessa meeting. Like, you needed to be there to experience it, I will tell you. Yeah, I don't know. We're currently designing packaging for my spirulina supplement. I know why you're talking about me. So I really just want to make the packaging like vibrant and beautiful and eye -catching, and, you know, all the things. So the design call meeting, it was like me and Scott, our partner at Empty Logic, and then like the whole design team. And so I had gathered like a lot of pictures of inspiration for like colors and, you know, the vibe I was feeling. And I found this picture of a mermaid. So for listeners, I just texted this mermaid to Vanessa so she can see it while I tell her the story. Did it come through?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah, that's beautiful.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so I saw this picture and the reason I love this mermaid is because because I want to make like a lot of supplements in the spirulina line like a spirulina and chlorella and a blend so I was like oh we can use like part of these colors for one we can use part of the mermaid colors for the other and we can kind of do all the colors for the blend and in my head before the meeting I was like I mean I would like to just do the mermaid honestly on the package but that's too I can't do mermaid like what who am I kidding so then we get on the phone call I like bring up this mermaid I'm like talking about the colors and then Scott Scott makes a comment I made like a throwaway comment like I would love to just have the mermaid like haha jokey jokey and then Scott was like well Starbucks is a mermaid and you know that does fine I was like oh door open you're right so then I was like the funny thing about the call was so Scott and I are like team mermaid the whole rest of the team they're like not no I'm not feeling it I kept being like these colors but like can we have the mermaid and then Scott Scott knew the team would like not really be down with it so he was trying to like hint at it without like really supporting it so he'd be like you know Melanie how do you feel about the mermaid and like we just kept like dancing around the mermaid like people and like Scott and I weren't sure like I wasn't sure if Scott really wanted the mermaid and Scott wasn't really sure like if I seriously wanted the mermaid but we were like trying to read each other out and we kind of thought we were on the same page so it was just like this whole thing about like the mermaid and isn't the mermaid amazing yes cuz cuz on the call they're like we can't do the mermaid I'm like what but can we do the mermaid are they gonna do the mermaid so now I've just decided that we have to do the mermaid like I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make this mermaid happen I've named her essence so beautiful do you know do you have like the artists and everything well that's the thing that was half the call we're like who created this mermaid and because I am because the name of the file is like a lot of numbers and I googled that and I couldn't find the original file but then I went through my initial like it was months ago but I was like I'm gonna find this mermaid so I tried to Google but I originally googled and I tried to like click on the pictures I had clicked on cuz you know like you click on the pictures and then it gives you more pictures and you click on the pictures it gives you more pictures so I sound it that way like going through the tunnel of Google Images it's AI and did you know that AI artwork cannot be copyrighted

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because Pete my husband's been using it a lot to make graphics for his articles And I'm like so you own this right like it's basically yours. We were just talking about this at dinner I was like, I'm pretty sure that that it's just yours. You can just use it

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like you can just use it but nobody owns it so like anybody can use it.

Vanessa Spina:
Right. So that's kind of like someone else could could take it and do it as well. But that's like, pretty low risk.

Melanie Avalon:
So I found the Etsy store that was selling like the high -res version and I was messaging them and I was I was like I don't want to like give off any flags. I was like, how do I like message and be like, is this copyrighted? I was like so worried. I was gonna do that. They were gonna like take it down and like Copyright it. Yeah, so fun fact ai artwork No copyrights. There might be a mermaid in the future somewhere

Vanessa Spina:
You know, it's funny because when I first opened the image, I was wondering if it was AI just because we were like looking at AI images over dinner that my husband was making. So it's like, yeah, it totally looks

Melanie Avalon:
that way. Did he find some programs that he likes online for that?

Vanessa Spina:
He's using something. I'm not sure what I, when I do it, it does a similar result and I'm using Canva, like there's a plug -in in Canva for it. This whole world of AI is... You would love this. I've been doing it with Luca, so like I did this only a couple times, like I was sitting on the couch with him and I was like, what do you want to see? And he was like, a rainbow choo -choo train by the river in Prague. So like we did that and it made a rainbow choo -choo train in Prague. You know, so we just like, we went through like three or four different pictures and he would just tell me whatever he wanted to see and it would, you know, make the image. So it was really with him. Yeah, I thought of you and I was like, Melanie would love this.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm smiling so much. That's like a whole other level of raising children, you know?

Vanessa Spina:
He's gonna grow up with this just being a thing like he just speaks into existence whatever he wants and it's there

Melanie Avalon:
Whoa. That's crazy. Oh my goodness. I love that. Well, on that note, anything new in your life? That's my mermaid update.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean mostly just baby life like everything is baby life. We're going to Spain next Sunday for a couple weeks because my parents are there so every year they come and spend some time in Spain and we go there and you know it's such a great place for kids like there's so many playgrounds. Every morning we just get up go to a playground there's usually a boardwalk by the beach there's so many different beaches and stuff there and there's always playgrounds like some have like big pirate ships and all kinds of stuff so Luca's really excited to see his grandparents to go on the airplane he's going to have his own seat like he just talks about it every single day how excited he is to go there and we're excited just to get some like nice weather like it started to be spring here but it's going to be a lot warmer and like have some beach days and stuff so it'll be really fun to go there for a couple weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
You know what's really interesting about that is with the playgrounds thing. So when you say that I immediately get so many memories to playgrounds. When I was growing up, they're all the playgrounds we would go to in Europe.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, that's funny. Yeah, there's there's a lot. I mean, I'm sure Germany is similar, you know, to Spain and Prague, there's a playground, like on every corner, there's just so many, it's endless, which is really great when you have little, little kids.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just getting so many memories. Like the playgrounds, they're like sturdy. They're like magical and they're like sturdy.

Vanessa Spina:
super colorful like there's this one that we go to in Spain that's just rainbow like it's total rainbow and every every part of it is a different you know rainbow color and Luca loves running around and saying all the colors names and yeah it's it's really fun so I'm really excited to get some travel in it's been a while since we went anywhere because I haven't been able to travel for a while so I'm excited for that.

Melanie Avalon:
Right, and you're the little travel bee.

Vanessa Spina:
Speaking of which, we said we were going to talk about your trip to London, so...

Melanie Avalon:
did it. And long story short for listeners, true story. So I supposed to go to London for like, how many days, three days or four days. I ended up, I went to Thanksgiving dinner, I came home. So I literally went for like a dinner.

Vanessa Spina:
It's, this is the most Melanie thing I've ever heard. I love it. And I know you did it twice, and then you were like, this is my new thing. I'm just gonna go places for a day.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm all about it. I'm all about it. Like I can do anything for a day. And you know, I have these moments. I mean, I know I'm an adult and I know I've been an adult for a while, which is weird. But like, you know, you have these moments where like, oh, I'm an adult. I had that moment. I like got back from the Thanksgiving dinner, which was fabulous. I went to see Charlotte Fox Weber. She's a guest. I found the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. I adore her. In any case, I went for a Thanksgiving party. So I like went to the party. I got back to my hotel that night and I was sitting in the hotel lobby and I was just so I had like a blast. But like I wanted to get back to work like I, I didn't want to like just like hang out in London for a few days by myself and not be working. So I was sitting in the lobby like probably like one or two am and I was like, Wait a minute. Because the first I was like, I'm still gonna be here for a few days. I was like, Wait a minute, I can fly back tomorrow. Like I can do that. Like I can change my flight. I can leave this hotel. I felt so adult. That's amazing. And so I did. And that's when I got COVID. Yeah, I felt so bad for you. You were so sick. Yeah, so it was a fun time. And now I do the Monday trips. Now I've done quite a few of them. And they're more to come.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so freeing, you know, I mean, we talk a lot about on this podcast about finding the thing that works for you, you know, trying different things, knowing yourself. And that's just like such a perfect example of it. Cause you know, in the past you may have said no to trips cause you didn't want to do all the travel or be gone for a long time. But now that, you know, you can just go for a day, like opens up this whole world of possibilities for

Melanie Avalon:
travel for you. It's amazing. And then I want to slowly, like, extend the days that I'm there, but, you know, work on that aspect. But, yeah, because people think what's bothering me is, like, the travel part or, you know, the travel part. But I'm like, no, the travel part's fine. It's like being away from—I just don't feel good with, like, my food and my digestion and my sleep and all of that for multiple days, but I can suck it up for a day.

Vanessa Spina:
It's a part of travel. I mean, a lot of people I you probably so many people listening to this have the experience of when their travel like they just don't go to the bathroom for like several days and stuff like, which is why for me, I always take magnesium citrate with me the magnesium calm, because like that usually doesn't happen for me, but if it does, like I'm not concerned, but so many people, I'll talk to they'll be like, Yeah, I went to Mexico and I like didn't go to the bathroom for a week. Like, oh my god.

Melanie Avalon:
So that freaks me out, like it freaks me out.

Vanessa Spina:
But it's such a common thing that when people travel, it like, you know, you're eating different foods, you're in different environments, there's different bacteria, like, it does affect most people's digestion, some people not at all, or just a little bit, and some people a lot. So you're not the only person, like, it's a very common part of traffic.

Melanie Avalon:
And actually, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I did want to talk about something for the listeners related to it. I was thinking a lot of the bowel movement issues are about it messing up your circadian rhythm with the travel because so much of that is tied to your circadian rhythm. I hadn't done an international trip since I've been fasting, so this was my first international trip with fasting. I didn't really have any jet lag. I implemented my theory I've been talking about for so long but hadn't personally implemented. I mean, I do it domestically, but that's only a few hours difference. I did it for this trip, and I don't want to say zero jet lag, but I don't remember having any jet lag. So basically, my protocol was I just ate my... So I do a one meal a day with a later meal, like a dinner meal. So the night before traveling, because I had a late night flight out, I stayed up super late, like more later than normal, had a massive meal like normal, slept in really late, went to the airport on the night flight, and then I just fasted the whole flight over. And then when I got to London, it was the morning. By the time I got to my hotel, it was the afternoon. I still didn't eat, so I was still fasted, and I just fasted till dinner. And then at dinnertime, I had an early dinner, and then I went to bed, and then it was completely normal the next day. And then on the way back, I did the same thing. I just did my normal dinner before the flight, and then I flew home the next morning, and then I fasted the whole flight, and then I ate dinner when I got back, and then I was completely normal the next day. Like zero. Besides the actual day landing there, where I was a little bit tired, there was zero jet lag. That's it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's great. That's what I always do. I usually fast on flying because it's easy. It's easy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and you can use your meals as an anchor, basically, to sync up your circadian rhythm to the new time zone. So if your body is accustomed to thinking, I eat this at this time, I eat this at dinner, I eat this at breakfast, I eat this at lunch, then it automatically, when you eat that meal again in that time zone, in that time zone's time for that meal, it just syncs you up. So, yeah, team fasting for jet lag.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I mean, my biggest thing for jet lag is just as soon as I land, say I land in Europe, is getting outside and getting as much light on myself as possible and going for a long walk. And I think that that's probably been helpful because it is helping you sync up with the wavelengths of light at that time of day, which is then triggering different hormones, you know, and helping you, you know, make melatonin more later and helping you with all that. So, yeah, that I think the light and the meals are two of the biggest things you can do to really help. I think that's

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing, yes. And then my little hack that I have discovered, I don't know if I told you this, but one of the things I miss the most with travel is my cooling mattress. Like I have to have my cooling mattress. Have I told you my solution to this? No. Because you can't travel with a cooling mattress, but here's what you do. Are you ready? I love this so much. So you go, I always go to Whole Foods, which they, it is so nice that there's Whole Foods in Europe. I was like, oh, I feel like I'm at home.

Vanessa Spina:
The whole thing I do, if I go to Austin, I go to Whole Foods. If I go to London, I go to Whole Foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Although it's like different in the European whole foods. I was like, stuff is like different here, but in any case. So I always get the, they have like the whole foods brand leader glass bottles of water. So I always stock up on that water because that's why I drink at home. And then if I travel, I stock up on it to drink there. But if you get a mini fridge in the hotel room, keep the water in the mini fridge. And then at night when you're sleeping, you get out one of those really cold waters and you kind of cuddle it like it's a stuffed animal and like it keeps you really cold. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. And then you come out. So like, so you cuddle it and you want to get it by your like core so that it's like cooling you down. And then, you know, if you wake up like a few hours and it's warm, you just swap it out with a new cold, cold one and cuddle it again.

Vanessa Spina:
That's amazing. I mean, most people cuddle with a hot water bottle and you go with an ice cold bottle of water. I love it. Like you're such a cold girl. It's really in your DNA. Do you think it's in your DNA or do you think it's something that you have like trained yourself because you know all the benefits of cold?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, like growing up like in high school and like I would always like I love the heat and I love tanning and but I also was always hot like my mom would always be like, wear a coat and be like, I'm fine. I like feeling not inflamed, which is why the cold makes me feel. So I don't know. That's a good question. How about you?

Vanessa Spina:
For me, I definitely have trained myself. Like I never liked being cold growing up. I think it's because I under ate protein. But now I'm the person I was the person who was always cold. I think I was under eating calories a lot and I was under eating protein. And now I'm the person who's always too warm. Like I walking around in t shirts. It's not that warm here, but it's been we've been getting a little bit of spring sun and I've been out in t shirts. We went ice skating. Last weekend, we took Luca for the first time and I was in a t shirt the whole time. You know, and I love that. Like I love the feeling of the cold air, but I have made myself deliberately more cold adapted. And I also love that I've made myself cold adapted because I feel like it's a superpower that I'd much rather be wanting to, you know, cool off and to enjoy cold exposure, especially because I know how beneficial it is. You know, in the morning I go outside and stand in the sun or do some grounding and it's freezing cold, but it feels amazing to me. And I much prefer that to when I was a teenager, you know, we did a ton of winter sports and I was always freezing. Like I was always cold and resisting the cold, you know, and not enjoying it. Whereas now, you know, I love it and I love that you can make yourself more cold adapted. So I'm one of those people who will make myself learn to love and embrace things because I know that they're good for me. And I think that that's like, it's kind of a cool thing to be able to do, but it's definitely, it's probably in our DNA, you know, but we like moved away from it towards comfort for so long. And then when you realize that it's better to embrace these things, then maybe you go back more to like how we're originally optimized.

Melanie Avalon:
is for? I think, no, I think it's so true. I had that moment recently where I was like, oh, this does feel like a superpower. Because I was reflecting on how, I was reflecting on how whenever I have guests back to my apartment, even if they're like men who you would think would be like, you know, resilient, because I keep my apartment cold, like cold. And all the men who have come over here are like, freezing. And I'm like, I'm fine. And I was like, thinking about it, I'm like, I, this is like a superpower, you know, I'm like, resilient, I can like handle the elements, even though I can't really handle the elements. But I love the cold, team cold over here. Quick travel plug for people, if they would like to come hang out with me. Oh, speaking of travel, Vanessa, you should come to the biohacking conference in Dallas. Is it happening already again? It's in May. Yes. Wow, that's crazy. I'm excited. So it's going to be so amazing. It's at the end of May, through the beginning of April, it's like three days. So look at me, I'm going to be there more than one day. Definitely come. There's so many guests I've had on the podcast. So I was looking at the lineup, it's people like Paul Saladino, Dr. Mercola, Sarah Gottfried, Anna Kebecke, there's like so many people. And then there's this massive expo where you can try all the health and biohacking things, meet all the people. We can hang out. So please come listeners. And if you're coming, please let me know so that we can meet. So if you go to melanieavilon .com slash biohacking conference, oh, and this is Dave Asprey's biohacking conference, by the way. So he'll be there as well. Use the coupon code BCMelanie and that coupon code will get you a massive discount. I think when this airs, it'll be a 30% discount. So again, melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference, coupon code BCMelanie, please come hang out. I will be there and we'll have so much fun. So I think that's all the things. And then one last plug for people, we are about to close out our special giveaway we're doing for the show. So this is a chance to win the entire AvalonX line, Vanessa's Tone Protein, and a special surprise from MD Logic. So you will win, are you ready? You will win my Sera Peptase, which is great to take in the fasted state. It really helps support your fast because it helps you break down problematic proteins, sort of like what autophagy does. So it helps with inflammation, clears your sinuses, clears your brain fog. Studies have shown it can reduce cholesterol, it can reduce amyloid plaque, in vitro and in vivo. Again, animal studies, but still pretty cool. So you'll get that. You'll get my Magnesium 8, which is a broad -spectrum magnesium blend because most people are deficient in magnesium. That's great for muscle recovery, sleep, just energy overall. You'll get my Magnesium Nightcap, which is a special type of magnesium, which crosses the blood -brain barrier. It helps with memory and mood, as well as sleep and relaxation. You will get my berberine, which is amazing for blood sugar control. If you're really trying to optimize your fasting and your eating and take charge of your metabolic health, berberine is incredible for that. When I wear a CGM, I see a massive difference in my blood sugar response when I am taking my berberine, specifically. I've compared it to other berberines. You will get Vanessa's Tone Protein. Vanessa, would you like to tell them about your tone protein?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to. Well, first of all, it tastes absolutely delicious because it's flavored with a vanilla bean. And everyone says they absolutely love taking everyday look forward to it as a special treat, but it's also scientifically optimized to help you build muscle and get toned and lean. So it's enhanced with leucine. So you know that you're triggering muscle protein synthesis with every serving. So it's scientifically formulated for optimal muscle growth and it also tastes delicious.

Melanie Avalon:
So you will get that and we recorded an episode episode before last all about the awesome benefits of protein actually before workouts how you can still burn equal amounts of fat as fasting as with protein prior to a workout so that's prior to a workout but also that protein would be great for refueling after a workout and Vanessa is the best of the best for formulation so you definitely definitely want that tone protein you will also get a special surprise from one of MD logics favorite supplements I'm not sure what they're going to throw in but I'm sure it will be awesome they have a wide broad range of supplements so if you would like to win all of that which is worth definitely a couple hundred bucks go to apple podcast subscribe to the show and write a brief review if you've already written a review before no worries you can update your old review to update it for something new and sparkly or you could create a new account and write a new review we would really love that but in any case do that and send a screenshot of the review to questions at if podcast .com and we will enter you to win the prize which is really really awesome so again subscribe brief review on apple podcasts or update your old review send us a screenshot to questions at ifodcast .com and you will win avallonix sarah peptase magnesium 8 magnesium nightcap berberine vanessa's tone protein and something special from MD logic all of that is worth a couple hundred bucks super awesome yeah okay shall we get into some fasting stuff for today I would love to answer some questions before that I have a really fun little quick review I was going to share a study it's actually just a review but it's from January 2024 so it's pretty new and it is a systemic review published in nutrients and it's called intermittent fasting does it affect sports performance a systemic review so the purpose of the study was to investigate whether or not intermittent fasting affects performance and professional athletes they wanted to look on the effects of aerobic and anaerobic exercise strength and power body composition including fat mass muscle mass and weight and see how intermittent fasting affected all of that the majority of the studies they looked at were time restricted feeding with a 16 hour fasting window and an eight hour feeding window there were a couple that were 14 eight hour fasting and those were primarily in Ramadan and they did look at one that looked at just quote overnight fasting their conclusion was. So looking at all the reviews, they found that first of all, they said that they could affirm that intermittent fasting of any type metabolically affects the body composition in a positive way. So it helps with body weight specifically. They said that it's a adequate nutritional strategy to reduce body fat percentage to a good number for the athlete. So that number is between 6% to 12% body fat for men and 12% to 18% body fat for women while, and this is key, maintaining muscle mass. So I think that is just so, so important. They also found that studies showed that fasting patients had greater adherence than other dietary approaches. So basically it's fasting is something that you can really stick to and is good for the long term. And interestingly, they actually found that in general, the fasting was actually more effective in the medium and long term than in the short term. And I just want to focus on this for a second because so often when we think of things like dieting or calorie restriction, it's always said that, yeah, it works in the short term, but not in the long term. Well, they actually found literally the opposite, which is what we want, that fasting is more effective in the medium and the long term than the short term, which I thought was super cool. They found that in general fasting improves metabolic health and insulin sensitivity and glucose and lipid metabolism. So that's sugar and fat metabolism in the body, all in ways that would be beneficial for the athlete. In particular, it seems to have a beneficial effect on adiponectin hormone, which low levels of adiponectin are actually associated with obesity, oxidative stress, and insulin resistance. So they found a good effect there. And they found that fasting does not negatively affect sports performance. And I already said this, but that it does improve body composition. So takeaway, again, this is a review from January 2024, but their findings were that fasting is basically a really good approach for professional athletes. Any comments there, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I think that's amazing. I mean, there's so many detractors about intermittent fasting. And yet I know when I was interviewing Dr. Mark Madsen, who's sort of one of the founders of intermittent fasting, he did some of the early research on it. And he found, you know, that it was amazing for, you know, BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, and that it was helping the athletes at his university. And he was really wanting to put their whole university track team on intermittent fasting, because he, he personally saw that with his running, that it was improving it. And he was like, we're going to be, you know, unbeatable if my, if the whole track team does intermittent fasting, but you know, he, he couldn't do it with the students there. But I remember him saying that, you know, he thought it was like the super powerful athletes for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so amazing. I love anecdotes like that. I need to, how many times have you interviewed him, Dr. Mattson?

Vanessa Spina:
Just once, I did one interview with him on the optimal protein podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, very cool. And he's like a legend in the fasting sphere. He's done so much, so much research with fasting. So that's amazing. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think he's one of the main reasons that intermittent fasting took off in the first place is definitely his research. That's incredible.

Melanie Avalon:
So, okay, and we'll put a link in the show notes to Vanessa's episode with Dr. Matson so people can check that out. And okay, shall we jump into some questions for today? Yes, I would love to. So to start things off, we have a question from Jennifer. We get questions like this all the time, but it's always nice to revisit and kind of just give an overview or approach to it. So she wants to know what foods slash supplements won't break a fast. She says she takes collagen powder, MCT oil, omega -3 oil, and she's read that a tablespoon of cream might be okay, but is any of that true?

Vanessa Spina:
So my personal golden rule with this is basically anything that has any calories in it or that's going to stimulate any anabolic processes or building or growth processes is not suitable for fasting because you want to only be in that catabolic or breakdown mode when you're in fasted mode. And so you are activating the AMPK pathway, which is associated with the longevity and health benefits that are provided from doing fasting. So I personally think, you know, if you're ever in doubt, just ask yourself, does this have any calories in it? So that means there are actually some supplements that you can take fasted as long as they don't say take with food on them because they don't have any calories at all. And they're not triggering any anabolic processes. But if we look at your list, for example, you know, collagen powder, does it have calories in it? Yes. So it does break a fast MCT oil. Does it have calories in it? Yes. So we'll break it fast. Omega three oil. Does it have calories in it? Yes. So we'll break it fast. So cream does have calories definitely will break it fast. So I think that one of the reasons there's a lot of confusion about this is because there are people who follow sort of the, you know, four different forms of fasting and keto, like the bulletproof sort of coffee kind of thing where, you know, that was always advocated as, well, this won't break your fast because it doesn't have any carbs in it. So in a sense, you know, there are people who advocate for fat fasts where, okay, we know that you're really not triggering as much insulin as if you're having carbs or protein. That's definitely true. But if it has calories in it, then in my opinion, you're taking the body out of the fasted state. So that's kind of, I'm pretty black and white on it. And that's how I tend to look at things. So being in the fasted state, for me, you know, there are things that you can get away with, like mostly water, plain tea, element, unflavored, I think it's called the raw element, which is basically just the electrolytes, you know, those things don't have calories in them. And they're not stimulating any growth pathways, anything anabolic. So what about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Three thoughts to it. One, if listeners would like free element, you can go to drinklmnt .com slash if podcast, that will get you a free sample pack, which will include that raw unflavored one. So definitely that would be a great supplement for your fast, the raw unflavored, which actually brings me to the second point, which is like an element sample pack, you also get all the other flavors. And so those are an example of something that is non caloric, so no calories, but they have a, like a sweet taste to them. I consider that breaking a fast, even though it's non caloric, which I love Vanessa's pillar about the calories, even though it's non caloric, it's sending signals to your body of flavor and food and sweetness, which can affect your insulin and you know, have a hormonal effect from there. So I basically do the two pillars like the calorie pillar that Vanessa talked about, and then does it evoke sweetness or the taste of food, even if it's non caloric. That's a really simple way to like two pillars to look at. But the third thing I thought about was, I guess we haven't recorded since I recorded the in person podcast with Dave for this show, right? That was also before. Yes, we have not recorded together, right? Yes, that's right. Crazy. I was thinking about it because you mentioned bulletproof. And also I asked Dave, so I'll put links in the show notes to the episodes that I did with Dave. But I asked him, you know, this question, of course, he has a very opinionated, intense opinion about this, which is a little bit contrary to what we said. That was crazy. I forgot, Vanessa, have you done in person podcasts before?

Vanessa Spina:
I have been a couple, but I was being interviewed, so it wasn't me interviewing like you did. you

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was like, this is a whole like, this is a whole another experience. Having to, it was a lot. It was a lot to take in. Because being interviewed, like you said, is one thing, but you're you're just answering the questions. But I was like, prepping and I had my notes, but it was like on camera. And it was with Dave Asprey, who's like a legend. And it was like a lot to take in and I was traveling for it. So but it was a magical time. So listeners, definitely, definitely check it out. I want to do more in person podcasts now, actually, which is crazy. It inspired me. So Okie Dokie, I think we answered that question. Shall we go on to Zena's question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So Xenia from Facebook says, my doctor told me to stop 16, eight intermittent fasting when I had a serious bloating issue. He couldn't tell me why I had a bloating issue. I did some tests and just minor stomach inflammation, but he said that I should stop 16, eight intermittent fasting, but I'm seeing people having all kinds of benefits from intermittent fasting, including fixing gut issues. And what if I start having weight gain after discontinuing with IF? What should I do? Then Emily said, why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. And once you see all the benefits, you won't want to stop. Stacy said, in my experience, bloating was food related. Think carbs like pasta, bread, chips, tweak the food.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So I love this question from Zinnia. I love the feedback that listeners provided as well. Okay, so Zinnia went to her doctor and her doctor said to stop IF because of her bloating. This doesn't really make sense to me. Okay, I have a few different thoughts. One, the actual fasted process itself is like Zinnia mentioned, healing for the gut. She's saying that she's heard the benefits of IF including fixing gut issues. So resting the gut is a great chance for it to heal and repair itself. Any bloating you would get from the actual fast would probably, and I reserve the right to be not completely comprehensive or adjust if new information comes out. But from my current understanding, really the only bloating that would be caused by fasting itself, not the eating on the flip side, but by the actual fasting would be a sort of die -off that people can get. So if you're starving some bad gut microbes, they can get a little bit unhappy and they can release metabolic byproducts which might contribute to bloating. That would be temporary though if you are fixing your gut, working on your foods, addressing your microbiome. So that would be a temporary thing and it's not something where you need to stop fasting. Now, if you get bloating while fasting, it's probably from kind of like what the listeners were like Stacy was saying with being the food related. It's probably from the food you're eating after the fasting and it could be accentuated or made a little bit worse because in the fasting pattern, you might now be eating a larger bolus of food at once than you were before. So before if you were eating just throughout the day, you would be constantly digesting that food at more of a baseline compared to fasting. And then if you're eating like a large bolus of food, you might be getting some digestive distress from that. So it could be just the actual load of the food being too much for you and or the actual foods that you're eating may be problematic and maybe eating them in a larger amount at once is a problem. So some ways to address that, I mean, two big pillars there. One, digestive support can be amazing. So taking some HCL, which is basically like our stomach acid and you can get it in supplement form that can really help with digestion, especially for digestion of protein. And you know, we're all about the high protein meals around here. And then digestive enzymes can be really great to help break down just all the things. I actually, Teaser probably will have a line out for this in the future. Right now what I currently take, I use pure encapsulations for their digestive enzymes and their HCL. So you can try that. And then also the actual foods you're eating, the bloating is probably caused by the foods you're eating or an extension, the foods, how they're being digested and metabolized by your gut bacteria, which are affected by the foods you're eating as well. So it all kind of like goes full circle. So I would really, I wouldn't stop IF, look at your food choices and try to find what you do digest. Going on an elimination diet temporarily can be really helpful for that. Definitely get my app FoodSense Guide. That's at melonieavilon .com slash FoodSense Guide. I'm happy to announce it is now free. It used to be a paid app, but I actually made it free. So you can subscribe beyond that for other features in it, but there is a free version. So that is a comprehensive guide to over 300 foods. And it'll show you what different potentially problematic food compounds are high in each food. So you can kind of see like, oh, if I'm reacting to, you know, these foods, you can like see what compounds they're high in. And it might turn out that you have a problem with FODMAPs or you have a problem with lectins or you have a problem with histamine. So that might be a valuable tool. Also taking something I love to help with this that has been incredible for my bloating has been to, well, for me to a low FODMAP diet. So I use my FoodSense Guide app for that. And then having my fast and then ending my fast. There's this supplement. I want to make my own version one day. It's called Dr. Danielle Gut Assist. I have tried a lot of different leaky gut support powders. And they usually have some combination of glutamine with some other things. I love this one. I literally, I've tried so many. So it has L -glutamine, it has D -glycerinated licorice extract, which I've tried that one by itself as well. But I like it in this blend. It has some aloe and it has some arabino -galactin. So I take that as a supplement at the end of my fast. And I found that really, really helps my overall digestion and bloating. So to recap, Zinnia, I would not stop the, I mean, I don't want to go against your doctor. So work with your practitioner or find a new one. I would keep going with the bloating and then kind of like, so Stacy talked about the food -related things. And then Emily was saying, why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. And once you see all the benefits, you won't want to stop. I do think that a lot of listeners and people, IF becomes a lifestyle for them. And all of that said, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Vanessa's eating window in the past. That said, don't feel like you have to be on one certain type of fasting forever and ever. Like you should feel free and the ability to change around your fasting window. So I think the best of both worlds is seeing fasting as a lifestyle and also knowing you have flexibility within that to change and adapt accordingly. So I don't think we ever want like a fear mindset or over restriction or anything like that. So I just want to encourage that mindset surrounding all of that. I also have thoughts about the weight gain after discontinuing. But Vanessa, do you have any thoughts about the bloating and all the things?

Vanessa Spina:
I think you entered it really thoroughly. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the waking.

Melanie Avalon:
I was just going to say to that that like people really get, you know, worried about weight gain after discontinuing with IF and well, A, goes back to IF can be a lifestyle and it's always in your back pocket and you can always keep doing it. But having this fear about weight gain, I just really want to empower people that you can always, even if you're not doing fasting, you can always make food choices that support your body and you don't have to gain weight. And I know that sounds like really simple and simplistic, so maybe I'll elaborate on it a little bit more, but so say you do stop fasting and you go back to eating throughout the day. Your body requires a certain amount of nutrients and calories every single day and you don't have to be restrictive to maintain, especially if you're making whole foods choices and focusing on protein, there's just so much potential basically in your food choices. And when you get out of the mindset of like, it's all about calories and if I eat this amount of calories or if I'm eating at these times, I'm going to gain weight, I would just try to add some comfort in that focus on what you can have and, you know, try to not focus on the fear mindset about gaining weight. Think about things that like if you focus on protein, for example, that's going to fill you up, especially lean protein and lean protein itself does not easily become fat. I mean, we even talked about a study recently where fueling with lean protein before exercise, people still burn fat similar to fasted exercise, which is so, so mind blowing. So focusing on foods that don't even normally become fat, so eating protein and then eating whole foods that, you know, require, they require energy to be broken down. They have a thermogenic effect. They're not just easily shuttled into fat. I just want to encourage people to, to kind of lose that fear if they can. Yeah, that was a lot of thoughts. Any, any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Just I guess the last note that I would say about the bloating is I really recommend trying an elimination protocol. And for me, I did that for a month doing carnivore, you don't have to do it for a whole month, but carnivore diet, just eating mostly meat, I think you did it recently for like, almost two weeks, like 10 days. It's a period of time where you can just only give your body something that generally does not cause much bloating for people. And what I found is that when I did only meat, then I was able to reintroduce certain plant foods, and I was able to see what actually did cause bloating for me. And after I figured out what that was, like for me, it was a lot of cruciferous vegetables, a lot of the cabbage family, broccoli, cauliflower, you know, a lot of times people eat these foods because we're told they have anti cancer properties, and they're really good for you. And a lot of people incorporate them into your diet. But for me, it was causing me so much bloating. And as soon as I figured out what it was, I was able to, you know, reintroduce other foods, and not have to deal with bloating anymore. So I think that elimination protocols can be really helpful to sort of figure out if there is something that you're habitually consuming that is actually causing bloating for you. And it's a food sometimes that you may not think it is. And it could surprise you. But then once you figure it out, then, you know, you don't have to deal with bloating anymore, which, you know, I've been free of bloating for four or five years now since I figured that out. And I know from having dealt with it in the past, how uncomfortable and stressful it is, and it may not be being caused by food. I'm glad you're seeing a specialist about it to figure out the root cause of it. But elimination protocols can be really powerful, you know, for figuring that out.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm so glad you talked about that because that reminded me of an incredible resource for listeners. So we had the founders of Victus88 on the show. This is the food sensitivity test. I am obsessed with friends, so I was always looking for a food sensitivity test that would actually show you what you were sensitive to. Because most of them just look at IgG or IgM, which isn't the full picture, they actually look at the full picture, which is not just IgG and IgM, your immune reactions, but these two really important things called C3D as well as IgG4. And basically, I don't want to get all in the nuance and the weeds of it, but basically what they do is they show you what your body is actually reacting to. And then they show you if your body has created tolerance because it's possible that you're having an IgG or an IgE response. And I said that earlier, I think I said IgM, they look at IgG, IgE, IgG4, and C3D. They show you not only are you responding to a certain food, but is your body either A, have tolerance, so it's actually not a problem, or B, are you only responding a little bit, but your body is amplifying that response, and that's what that C3D response is. So that was a lot of letters. It's a mind -blowing test, and I think it really helps show listeners what foods may or may not be a problem, and even on the meat side of things. So when I did it, I found that I thought, oh, carnivore, any meat goes, but I found that I actually respond, for example, some I have zero response to, like pork is completely fine for me. Cod is fine. Shrimp is fine. Scallops, which I eat all the time, have a little bit of a response, but they have this complementary other aspect, which makes them be tolerant to it, which is so fascinating. But then I actually do have a little bit of reaction to chicken and beef, which made me sad. I was like, what? And also, people can find that addressing their that if they do multiple tests, addressing their gut health and their digestion, that they might adapt and change over time, which is incredible. So if you it's called Victus 88, you can get $55 off with the code Melanie Avalon. Just go to Melanie Avalon dot com slash Victus 88. That's B I C T U S eight eight. So that could be really, really eye opening for everybody to see what foods like literally see what foods there are problematic for them, like right here, right now. And then you can make actually walks you through a elimination. It gives you options like an intense elimination protocol to try or a more approachable elimination protocol where you just cut things out every few days. So it's really amazing. We'll put links to all that in the show notes. So I think that is all the things as a brief reminder for listeners. If you would like to win the entire avallonix line, as well as messes tone protein, as well as a special surprise from IndiLogic, go to Apple podcasts, write a brief review and subscribe or update your old review and send a screenshot of that to questions. I a podcast dot com. Another resource if you'd like to hang out with me and Dave Asprey and Paul Saladino and Dr. Sarah Gottfried and Anna Kebecke and so many guests I've had on my show. Definitely come to Dave Asprey's 10th annual biohacking conference in Dallas. It's this may be code B C. Melanie will get you 30% off at melanieavallon .com slash biohacking conference. You can get these show notes for today's show with links to all of this. So all these things I'm hitting you with, they'll all be in the show notes. They'll be at I a podcast dot com slash episode 363. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I a podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl and you can follow me on my new TikTok. Please come hang out with me there. I feel really lonely. So please come. That is Melanie Avalon biohacker. Whoo. Okay. I think that is all the things. Vanessa, this was so wonderful. Thank you for, I want to say thank you to Vanessa because she's like a champ. She's doing these recordings while having, you know, a newborn. So, so much gratitude to you for, for being here and this has been so amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so sweet. I'm so happy to be back recording with you. I'm excited for us to get back to our regular recording schedule and just excited for, yeah, all the future episodes. I had so much on with you. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I will talk to you next time.

Vanessa Spina:
next week. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re -composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Mar 04

Episode 359: Morning Routines, Blue Light, Grounding, Brown Fat, Emotional Conservation, Daily Protein, Natural Flavors, Muscle Loss, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Dietary restriction of isoleucine increases healthspan and lifespan of genetically heterogeneous mice

Welcome to Episode 359 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

REEL PAPER: Reel paper makes soft, sustainable, eco-friendly, soft, perfume-free, dye-free, plastic-free toilet paper made of 100% bamboo, and they plant one tree for each role you buy! Reel paper is available in easy, hassle-free subscriptions or one-time purchases, conveniently delivered to your door with free shipping in 100% recyclable, plastic-free packaging. Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

MD Logic: MD Logic’s Vitamin D3K2 is the ultimate vitamin D supplement for bones, immunity, and overall health and wellness! Derived from all natural vegan lichen, Md Logic’s D3K2 is tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all problematic filters, and comes in a glass bottle! Get 10% off sitewide at MDlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

REEL PAPER: Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

AIRDOCTOR: Shop at airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

MD Logic: Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

Listener Q&A: Sadi - Total protein for the day

Listener Q&A: Karen - Can you speak to ‘natural flavors’?

Listener Q&A: Katie - I am so torn between fasting and eating enough protein

Listener Q&A: Marisa - Can you please address Isoleucine restriction as it relates to longevity?

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - Thoughts on taking mineral supplements

Listener Q&A: Lori - I’d love ideas on how to firm up my skin after weight loss after the age of 50

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 359 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Spina, and I have a wonderful co host joining us again, Scott Emmons from MD Logic. How are you doing today, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I'm doing wonderful. Pleasure to be back on the show with you, Vanessa. Looking forward to our questions for the day. I always get to learn so much and get a further understanding of what people are concerned with and the questions they have recently. So yeah, super excited.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited too and just can't wait to get into these questions. I had so much fun recording the last one with you. So much fun to have you back here on this one. And it's early March when this episode is coming out, and it's my birthday week, march eigth.

Scott Emmens:
Hey, happy birthday.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks.

Scott Emmens:
Spring break is coming up. The weather should be breaking soon, so looking forward to that.

Vanessa Spina:
I am too. I'm really excited for just spring in general. I mean, I'm enjoying winter more and more since I have started embracing the cold, learning about circadian health, cold adaptation, which we were just talking about on the last episode, and all the benefits that you get from that. So we could talk actually a little bit about morning routines. But since I've been diving more deeply into this red light is a huge part of my morning routine and also getting out and getting the sun on my body throughout the day, but specifically, especially at two times, and that's at sunrise if I'm up for it, which I usually am. And in the winter, like just standing out there and doing some grounding. Standing out in our garden, doing some grounding. I definitely look like a psychopath if you are not into any of this stuff. But I'm barefoot in the garden, like, walking around just for, like, five to ten minutes, getting some light on my body. And it's amazing to know that that's really signaling the melanopsin in my eyes and skin and initiating these hormonal cascades and also getting a bit of uva light a little bit later in the morning. And it's so important in the winter, I think about so often so many of us work and live in indoor environments now, which is such a contrast to our ancestors. And not only that, but windows that we have filter out most of the red light, and they let in all the blue, and then we're staring at blue screens. It's almost like we're in an experiment designed to see, how bad is blue light for you. Because the way we live our lives, we just get so little natural light. And you think about the time, if you don't live in Hawaii or Australia or other parts, the winter is generally cold, and so we're indoors even more. And I'm one of those people who always used to want to be comfortable all the time. And if I saw someone outside in the morning, in the winter, barefoot, I'd be like, what is going on with that person? But apparently, getting that light exposure during the day is even more important than avoiding blue light at night, which says so much, right?

Scott Emmens:
100%. It is so difficult to do in the winter, but I have really made an effort. Now my son thinks I'm insane because where I ground, he has a sliding basement door. So I'm standing in front of his sliding basement door. So when he opens his curtains every now and then, he sees his dad in shorts in, like, 30 degree weather, standing barefoot out in the sun. He's like, dad, you're mental. And I'm like, listen, kid, when you're 52, you're going to be doing the same thing because you're going to be in worse shape than me, because at least in my 20s, we were outdoors doing things we didn't have computers. You're right. The amount of blue light, and more importantly, the fact that we really don't get much sunlight on our face. Like, you get in your car, you might have a little commute, but even then, your windows might be tinted, and even a non tinted window is preventing some of the natural light from getting to you. You really have to get some direct face and eye and skin exposure. And the earlier in the morning, the better. It's going to reset your clock. And if you don't believe me, go camping for a week. Don't bring any melatonin or sleep aids. Go out there, wake up when the sun goes up, and I promise you, by 930, you will be knocked out dead asleep.

Vanessa Spina:
We spent so much time at our cabin or cottage growing up, and I always used to go to bed at, like, eight whenever we're there, when we're camping, it's the same thing. And I always used to think it was because we didn't have tv, but it's probably that blue light coming from screens and just the routines that are so important. And it's amazing how these simple, free hacks are just aligning ourselves with that circadian rhythm that ancestrally, we would have spent all of our time outdoors. Even if we were sleeping in caves or in different fabricated habitats, we would have been outside all the time. And now we're doing the exact opposite of that. And it's amazing how these really simple things, like grounding like that. It's funny your son laughs at you because Luca loves it. Like, kids have so much brown fat all over their bodies, and we can actually gain it back. So there was this one study where this individual had a tumor on their adrenal glands, and they were constantly secreting adrenaline, and they had brown fat all over their bodies, so we can actually get it back. But when you're born, you have so much of it. So Luca doesn't really feel the cold, much. Like when we're outside in the winter, he loves it, and it's very rare that he'll say to me, like, I'm cold. And it's because it's really cold, and he's, like, dropped a glove or something like that. But kids have so much brown fat, they're constantly outside trying to take clothes off, and we're, like, putting layers on. You know, we can really learn so much from that. They're also in and out of ketosis all the time. And that's been really interesting with Luca because I have the tone device. I can check his ketones, and he loves it. Like, daddy checks his ketones, mommy checks her ketones, and he loves just taking it and blowing into it. And it's kind of fun because it's got graphics on it, and it gives know a number, like a readout, and he's in ketosis all the time. And we're born with that. The brown fat and the metabolic flexibility and our super comfortable lifestyles and environments and convenience food basically gets rid of all of those superpowers that we're born with. And now we're trying to reclaim through these different biohacks and things.

Scott Emmens:
People, they look at biohacking and they sort of think, like, I don't know if they think it's cheating or it's crazy, but really, we're just trying to get our bodies back to the natural state of things. It's because the modern lifestyle makes that know. It's funny, I hadn't even thought of this till you mentioned luca, but I remember being five to, like, eight and outside for five or 6 hours in the snow, making a snowman, like, for literally hours and not getting cold.

Vanessa Spina:
Same. Making a fort.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, making a fort, which was. God, I used to love that your.

Vanessa Spina:
Parents have to call you in and you're like, no.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, it was very rare that maybe my feet would get cold or something, or my hands, because the gloves were so. But, like, my body, I don't really recall shivering. I was basically out there building snow forts, having snowball fights, making snowmen for hours. And I think a lot of it was just your body's natural adaptation and the brown fat you develop and have when you're young. So that's an interesting observation with Luca.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I notice that, and I hear it from other people who practice similar morning routines with grounding, with red lights. I'll tell you mine, basically, I do that outside, and I turn on red light if I'm up before sunrise and just have it ambiently. So, like, if I'm in the bathroom with Luca or he's having a bath or something, and he know having the red light, and I try to do my red light therapy session sometime in there, and then typically, I'll have a coffee with almond milk. And that's usually how I start, like, the first hour of my day or so. What about you?

Scott Emmens:
My first hour of the day is, typically, I will try to go for either a walk if it's too cold, if it's not too cold, I'll be able to go outside on the grass. Can't be concrete, or it's got to be grass. Barefoot, maybe ten minutes in the sun, not long, just ten minutes in the sun. And then I will be usually drinking my coffee simultaneously. Then, if I still have the time, I'll make some fresh squeezed lemon juice, which is really great to get your bile and your liver kind of going for the day. And then I may wait an hour or two, take a berberine, and then I'll make usually like three to four eggs over easy, and that's pretty much it. I just eat those eggs and that gets me through most of the day to like 132 o'clock. But my morning routine is basically getting light. That's the most important thing. Grounding if possible, and then coffee with some nutrients, electrolytes and hydration. Pretty simple.

Vanessa Spina:
I love hearing people's morning routines. I have this one book, and I think it's called morning rituals of creatives or something like that. And it talks about all the highest producing poets and writers and scientists, and every page is like their morning routine. And sometimes it's their whole day. And it's so funny because it's like some of the most prolific writers that we absolutely adore and revere. They were like sleeping in the day, getting up, smoking a pack of cigarettes, having coffee, staying indoors a lot, just like some really unhealthy situations. But it's like they did whatever they could to preserve their creative energies. And it's just funny because some of them are really healthy, and then others are just like, they're so unhealthy, and yet it was whatever they needed to be able to perform. And I know for myself, in order to be really productive and clear and coherent and creative, especially, I have to protect my mental energy so much. The rest of the time when I'm not preparing to podcast, I have to do nothing. I have to basically do nothing. And I also have to protect myself constantly from negative news and negative, just negativity. And if I do that, then I can be really creative and high producing. And it's almost to the point where I have all these boundaries around me to prevent that stuff from getting in. But I have to be like this, and I have to tell my husband all the time, I don't want to hear that a horrible story, because I have to protect my energy. And it's interesting. Do you have anything like that that you feel like you have to create boundaries around or to get in a flow state or something?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, so that's fascinating. I had not even mentioned this to you at all, I don't think. But I have been working on some articles and considering. So launching a podcast that's going to be health based, probably January 22 is my goal, but let's just hope it's January 22. But I also have been thinking about launching a podcast called emotional conservation. And it's a combination. Yeah, seriously. So this is so crazy that you're mentioning this, because I haven't mentioned this to anyone.

Vanessa Spina:
Wow.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah. And the whole idea is that, look, you only have so much creative mental energy to output, right? What are the things you can do to help yourself keep both your emotional conservation and your emotional iq functioning? So your emotional iq is how well you're able to empathize, how well you're able to understand what other people are going through and when the right thing to say is something. But when your emotional conservation or your emotional stores are low, your emotional iq by default, even if you know what to do, becomes harder to do it because you're agitated, you're tired, you haven't saved up the energy, you can't be creative. You get overwhelmed. So that's something I've been digging a lot into. And one of the things I found that's been helpful is not just the morning routine, but the nighttime routine helps set up the morning routine. So, for example, I have a jug of water that I put next to my bed before I go to bed. I have an electrolyte pack next to that jug of water. And so sometimes I'll take electrolytes, sometimes I won't, but I will chug the water first thing in the morning when I wake up. That's like the first thing I do. But I have it in the night, my gratitude journal. Instead of writing in the morning when I've already, like, I'm ready to go and get going, I'll kind of write that in the evening. If I've got concerns or worries, I write those down in the evening, shut off my phone, I put it on do not disturb in airplane mode around 930 or 10:00 and then that's it. Then I get in bed and I'm prepared and ready for the next day because I don't have things hanging over me. I know what I want to do. And that helps with the emotional conservancy. And then as far as the news and negative media, yeah, that doesn't go on at all past like 02:00 if ever. I just try to skip through it. Even when I go to my little Microsoft browser and it's got articles that are clickbait, I'm like, skip. No, don't want to hear that. Don't care because you've only got so much emotion to give out. Yeah, really interesting you mentioned that. So you may be seeing the emotional conservation podcast sometime in 2024.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, you're going to have to have me on as a guest because I'm obsessed with this topic.

Scott Emmens:
You're booked. Consider yourself booked.

Vanessa Spina:
It's so funny because I just tell Pete all the time. He's a protector, he's a provider, he's a protector. He's constantly screening information for danger. He's on Twitter or x a lot, and he's like telling me information and I'm like, this information does nothing for me or for my ability to create positivity in the world. And he doesn't fully get it, I think, because he really needs to be informed because that's his primary goal, is, like, protecting and providing for us. But I'm a creative person and that stuff just sucks all my positive energy out and it just kills it. And there's so much negative news that is so like this really disempowering feeling. I'm not saying be ignorant, but you feel so disempowered by it. And so I think maybe I'm sensitive also to other people's states. Anytime I hear about something horrible happening, I'm like, to someone else, I just feel it. I feel it. And then I can't get in a good state to be creative or I can't get in the flow. You really have to protect yourself and your mental energy if you're going to go out and create and have the energy to create. And at the end of the day, I think it's okay to be maybe a little bit ignorant sometimes of the bad things happening in the world because that's what the news is always highlighting. And they're not highlighting the fact that, let's say, 500,000 successful births happened today. And this 95 year old man celebrated his birthday surrounded by all his family. And these people just got a well in their village. Actually, there's some Instagram accounts now that finally have good news. Those are the only ones, like, to follow. But it doesn't get clicks, it doesn't get reactions. And now it seems like so much of the content that we see is like, there's actually accounts that I've heard on podcasts. Their whole mo is just posting stuff that is controversial or gives you a negative reaction because it gets the most engagement. Like they purposely are designing content for people that will make them click or comment. And it's the stuff that makes you feel outraged. And it's like, I don't want to feel outraged. I don't want to feel all this. And then all your energy then goes towards that, and then you don't have it left for yourself and for the good you want to put out for the good you want to put out into the world. So I think it's okay to be conservative. And be protective of your energy.

Scott Emmens:
And I used to be a lot like Pete, right? And I would do dive into research and articles and what's going on in the world and try to spread this information. And what I found was it didn't make my family happier. It didn't help them. It made them feel exactly like you said. And I think the more empathetic you are, the more it negatively affects you because you want to help. But there's very little that you can tangibly do in a lot of these situations. Can you be supportive of people? Can you feel empathy for them? Yes. But the way that it's portrayed is sort of like it's your fault the environment's dying and it's your fault and you should do this. And people, then, they want to pick sides. Look, we pick sides over football teams and politicians and whether this brand is better than that brand, or whether we pick sides over almost anything. And I think that's been weaponized to some extent because it works to your point. It gets clicks, it gets people engaged. It gets engagement, it keeps people on. I don't see people on twitter for 2 hours having, hey, I really like you too. I think your point is wrong. And your point. No, here's my point. And you know what happens at the end of the day, neither one of them has convinced them of anything other than they've spent 2 hours arguing and spending a lot of negative energy. So I just walked away from that because it doesn't do any good. And it does leave you feeling a little bit unempowered. But also for people, like, I think for you and I and other people that are empathetic, it kind of hurts. And it leaves with this sort of sad feeling. So I get where Pete's coming from, and I used to do that same thing, and I just realized it's not helping my family. And frankly, it wasn't helping me either, because I'm like, I started spinning down this negative sort of spiral in my. Got to cut that out. So about three years ago, I just stopped watching the news pretty much altogether. But believe it or not, no matter how much you try to not watch the news, you still get it anyway. So if it's really that important, you're not going to be ignorant. You're going to hear about it, you're going to know about it. It's just not in your face all the time. It's not being presented by me to my family where they're like, is dad losing it? He really seems tense about this stuff. And kids want to feel safe.

Vanessa Spina:
It's designed to make you tense. It's designed to make tense and to react and to get that reaction from you. And I'm so glad that you became aware of it. It's hard sometimes to make people be aware of it. I have this game I play with Pete, so he'll tell me the news of the day, and I'm like, thanks for the daily outrage. We're all addicted to it, and it is very addictive. And I think he'll smile when I say that. But it's true. Your brain starts to become more and more wired a certain way towards getting used to receiving certain feelings and emotions and reactions. And it's definitely being used against us. Like, the fact that we are like that and the fact that we're programmed to always be looking for that tiger in the bush, that the negative stuff, it sticks out. It stands out so much more. And you have to actually deliberately put boundaries around yourself to make sure you cultivate the opposite, because you're always going to be. We are the descendants of the most paranoid, the most conspiracy theorists, like cavemen and women, because the ones who were not looking for the tigers in the bush got pretty much eaten, right?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, they're right here. Welcome to the Daily ps. Stay with Scott and Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I could talk about this stuff for hours. Yeah, I love talking about morning routines. Biohacks. I got all fired up about the biohacks from the last episode that we talked about. We had some really phenomenal questions, as usual. Let's get into some of today's questions. The first one comes to us from Sadie, if you'd like to read it, Scott.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. Thank you, Sadie, for the question from Sadie. I understand the concept and goal of consuming x amount of total protein per day. For me, it's desired body weight or lean mass because I have a lot of body fat to lose. And the goal to consume at least 30 to 40 grams of protein at each meal to get enough leucine to activate PMS. I don't think we want to activate PMS. I think we're talking about muscle protein synthesis, or in this case, protein muscle synthesis. But vanessa, I would guess we're not looking to activate PMS anytime.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't want to activate PMS. I definitely want to activate muscle protein synthesis. And we all know Sadie was meaning to say muscle protein synthesis, but she probably had autocorrect on, and it gets me every.

Scott Emmens:
So we had to have a little fun with that.

Vanessa Spina:
I love typos. I love them. They are.

Scott Emmens:
So, yeah, enough leucine to activate muscle protein synthesis. But if I'm doing one to two protein shakes a day to help keep calories low, lose body fat with just one scoop of whey protein, 20 grams of protein with added EA powder to increase the leucine content to activate mps. Doing this until tone protein comes out. Would my total protein for the day decrease since each shake is only 20 grams, but enough leucine to activate? Hope that makes sense. So you think, yes, it does. But vanessa, take it away.

Vanessa Spina:
So this is exactly why we created tone protein is to be able to hit your protein target without having to take down like six chicken breasts all the time, and to be able to eating 100 to 150 grams of protein. I think a lot of people fall in that sort of amount for their daily target, and it's sometimes hard to get that. That's like the number one thing I hear from people is that how do I possibly eat this much protein a day? We're not used to it. Maybe men are more used to it. Women are not used to it. We're used to eating salads and light food, calorie light foods and diet foods and things like that that we were told would help us recompose our bodies. We didn't know we were supposed to be eating the protein and hitting the gym instead of eating the salads and hitting the treadmill. And that's shifting. Now we're understanding what fitness really is from a female perspective as well. And I think just hitting that protein target, it can be difficult because it's a learning curve. There's a learning curve, and I've learned how to do it in different ways. But I wanted to create something that I myself could use so that I could take one serving of a high quality whey protein shake that is enhanced with leucine, similar to what you're doing by adding in some actually essential amino acids. But you could just be adding in bcaas and you'd be enhancing your protein meal or your protein shake, in this case, with the added leucine content. And so you don't need the EAA powder, just bcas. Or you could just take tone protein because you said you were doing this until tone protein comes out, and it's definitely out now. And so you could either do that, keep doing what you're doing, or you could try tone protein because it does the same thing. But to answer your question, your total protein for the day will decrease because you're getting maybe five or six less grams. Doing a scoop of tone protein or the scoop of the whey protein with the added bcaas. So the shakes, like you were saying, they end up being less than that. Like 30 to 35 grams range that I recommend for a protein meal. But it doesn't matter because what matters is you're raising the level leucine in your blood to initiate pms or muscle protein synthesis.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, we'll call that protein muscle synthesis.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, exactly.

Scott Emmens:
It is mps, though, for folks who just want to be totally clear on it. By the time folks are hearing this podcast, Vanessa MD Logical have launched a leucine only capsule. So you will not need to have anything other than just the leucine capsule. And you can add it to the whey protein, although you don't need to because you're getting four full grams. But let's say you're traveling and you want to have the chicken breast, but you want to make sure you're getting enough leucine or you want to have just two spikes. You want to have a spike before your workout, but you don't want to have another protein shake. You just want to have a full meal, but you want to just kind of make sure. Am I getting that leucine? You'll get three capsules, will give you 1.5 grams. So if you do four capsules, you'd be close to two. And six capsules give you a full 3 grams of leucine. So if you were to take three capsules with a meal, you'd probably be right in that three to four gram range, depending on the meal you're eating. We will probably also, by this point, have an essential amino acid powder out that's going to be coming out and it will have 2 grams of leucine total. So it's not going to hit that quite that four. But to me, that would be something that I'm going to experiment with pre workout. So it's going to be kind of my pre workout drink. I might add a leucine capsule or two to it prior to my workout. And then my post workout is going to be the tone protein because I'm going to get the full grams of a complete 20 grams of protein plus the 4 grams of leucine. For me, it's hard for me to drink a protein shake and work out, like to be a little lighter in my stomach when I work out. So I'm probably going to do like an EA pre workout, maybe with a leucine cap or not. And then my tone protein shake will either be like in the morning as a substitute for my breakfast. And then that'll be my post workout because I'm really at that age of 52, it's getting more difficult to maintain muscle mass. So that's probably going to be my routine. I'll keep you posted once if I get to come back after March and we'll let you know how that routine is going. But I'm super excited just for the tone. I've seen an improvement with just that, but I think my routine is going to be a tone protein post an EA pre and loosing capsules with meals or when I'm traveling and I just can't bring along the tone or the that.

Vanessa Spina:
I love that. And yeah, I love that you love tone protein, too, and so does Sadie. I hope that you get to try it out and let us know how you are liking it, Sadie. But I love that in the know you crafted your own formulation. That's totally what I've been doing for so. And I know you have been too, Scott. So our next question comes to us from Karen on Facebook, and she says, can you speak to, quote unquote, natural flavors? I have heard and read to steer clear as there isn't much regulation on what they can include. However many products that are endorsed by people that I have come to trust have them. So how do you shift through what is healthy and what is not?

Scott Emmens:
So that's a great question. And I think the reason that you are saying many people you've come to trust have them in their products is in order to make any kind of flavor, you need a natural flavor binder of some kind. For vanilla, for example, it's very hard to extract the flavor out of the bean. And so you need to utilize the natural vanilla flavor and combine it with other natural flavors to make sure that it pops. So if you've got a reputable company that you trust and people that you trust, they're going to have natural flavors that are exactly what they say, right? It's natural flavors to enhance the vanilla flavor or the orange flavor. So if it's a protein drink from a company you trust, or it is a pre workout drink from a company that you trust, and there aren't 18 or 19 different ingredients like silicon dioxides and dyes and flavors and other things, I think you're really safe. Now, they are regulated in terms of grass, meaning the FDA says they have to be generally recognized as safe. You'll often hear that referred to as grass. So they have to be generally recognized as safe to be included in whatever it is you're eating. Where I get concerned on natural flavors is particularly in things like processed foods or processed sugary drinks. For example. Potato chips are a good example. Cheetos are a good example. Fast food is another one where they'll add these natural flavors. And at that point, it could be a cacophony of 19 different ingredients. Whereas typically, when you're looking at something like a whey protein or a pre workout drink, you're looking at two or three ingredients in those natural flavors that are not only grass, but in our case, make sure that they're beyond grass. They're safe for your body to take. So I think if it's someone you trust and a brand you trust and it's in a health product, you can be pretty confident you're in good shape. If it's coming from potato chips or some sort of dorito like or spicy sort of salty thing, or fast food, processed food or frozen pizzas, I'd steer away from those so I wouldn't lump them all in the same bucket. There's definitely a distinction between brands you trust in the health space and your processed foods or sausages and things like that. So hopefully that helps clarify the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing all that information, Scott. I know being involved in supplement manufacturing for so many years, you are the best person to ask this question to, and it's really helpful and informative. So thank you so much for answering that. And thank you, Karen, for your question. And we have a question from Katie on Facebook.

Scott Emmens:
Okay. Hi Katie, thank you for your question. I am so torn between fasting and eating enough protein. I've been fasting 18 to 20 hours a day, occasionally 20 to 24 for three plus years. It's weird for me to eat before 01:00 p.m. I have such a hard time doing that. I'm usually at work and prefer to eat when I get home. And for years I've heard in your podcast and others that a four to six hour eating window was great for health. But now I'm learning more about the power of eating more protein, especially in menopause. I am almost 53 and have been in menopause for two years. Do I ditch the short eating window for more protein or try to cram it all in in 4 hours? Does Vanessa still fast? Question mark. I think I remember her saying on her podcast she now eats breakfast shortly after waking and then around dinner at six ish. I'm not sure which approach to take, but I'm afraid to stop my fasting. My weight loss has been creeping up ten pounds since last summer. So maybe I need to shift to more protein and a shorter fast. Great question.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, thank you so much for this question, Katie. Now this is a question where if Melanie was here, we'd probably have a little bit different responses because I know that she has a little bit of a different approach than I do, and she tends to do that shorter eating window, more omad style, but with a long window where she gets all of her protein in in that day. Now, as for me, I do approach it a little bit differently, and I have been changing it up in the last years, I have been trying different approaches. Now, I found that when I'm traveling and we're at a resort, which is kind of where this all started, it was way easier for me to do the half board. That's a really common thing at resorts here in Europe and in Greece, where we go, they have this breakfast option with this incredible breakfast buffet. So I had to get that in. And then I ended up just fasting until dinner because I felt fully satisfied from an amazing, nutrient dense breakfast. And that was a way for me to adapt in that situation. Then I kept doing it for a while we were home, but I naturally started gravitating back towards doing more of the 16 eight, the lunch and dinner. And I've talked to a lot of experts about this, especially Dr. Don Layman. And I am not a big fan personally of Omad, unless someone maybe is using it to either lose the last five to ten pounds and then they just want to maintain and just eat one meal a day because they like that. So some people really like that routine. It frees up your day from having to cook and prepare meals and clean up after. You could just eat once and some people love that. Now, I find that in terms of my personal approach, it's optimal for me to eat around midday. It's usually after my fasted workout and I feel great having a meal then at that time, it works really well for me socially as well. And I am also not hungry, just like you in the mornings. I just don't typically have a big appetite in the morning, so it just suits me better. I find I'm more energetic when I'm out doing errands or working out, and I have found that to work really well for me. So I prefer to have a 16 eight eating window. I don't think you need to get it in four to 6 hours. I think if you are someone who is over the age of 40, I personally believe you should be eating at least twice a day and protein focused meals at both of those meals because our rates of muscle protein breakdown do go up and we have lower levels of hormones as we get older and so we don't have the same anabolic signals or stimulus that we used to with hormones. So instead of having those hormone levels helping us to retain our muscle, now we have to use protein, protein intake to get enough protein at a meal to initiate muscle protein synthesis. And resistance training provides another anabolic signal to tell your body, we need this muscle. She's using it, he's using it. We have to hold on to it and maybe even grow it. And you have to send those signals that way because you don't have those hormones to rely on anymore. I also don't like too much extended fasting past the age of 40 because that muscle is so precious and it's hard to put muscle on. It's really hard to put muscle on and it's hard to maintain it as well, and also to have strong muscles and bones. So resistance training anywhere from two to four times a week, at a minimum two a week and a minimum two meals a day. If you really want to focus on building muscle, minimum three meals a day. And I sometimes do that. I sometimes have lunch, dinner, and I often will have a protein shake after dinner with tone protein. Now I'm having two a day. So you could say I'm up to four a day and I'm not really concerned about the fasting window. So you sort of ended the question saying that your weight has been creeping up about ten pounds. If you're after body recomp, body recomposition, fat loss and retention of your lean mass. I would say to me, this is like a great switch up, going from fasting 18 up to 22, 24 hours a day to now you're eating two meals. I can't tell you how many messages and emails I get from people who say they've added in another protein meal and their fat loss has really ramped up effortlessly because you also get the satiating effect from the protein that's so high, the thermic effect of protein, which helps you burn more calories. I've just get countless messages from people saying that they've added in. Either they've gone from one meal a day to two or they've gone from two to three and they're just eating more protein and suddenly their clothes are fitting better and they've lost ten to 20 pounds. So if you're feeling stuck, there's no better time than to try a different approach to switch it up. And I would not worry about trying to fast the most amount of hours in a day. I think you're going to get better results if you add a protein meal in. What do you think, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I completely agree. I think you're going to get better results by adding in more protein and having a larger eating window. So my wife actually, she's going to kill me if she hears this podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember this.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, my wife went into menopause about 18 months ago and put on about ten or 15 pounds. And I'm not saying a word, even though I'm not saying anything. But one day she finally says, how could I maybe lose some weight? I feel like I'm gaining a lot of weight since menopause. And I said we could try this. Are you saying I'm fat? I'm like, no, you asked me my opinion. But what we did is we just added protein to her diet in the morning, which helped curb her typically high carbohydrate meal in the afternoon. So I just added in berberine and 20 grams of tonin, the 2 grams of additional leucine. She's lost about six pounds in about six weeks, which she's thrilled about, and that's without any hormone treatment. So she is going to examine maybe some low hormone treatment, including testosterone. I think women underestimate the need for testosterone because you don't just lose estrogen, you lose all of the hormones, including testosterone, which is highly anabolic. And Vanessa brought up a lot of good points. That protein itself is thermogenic, but when you have more muscle mass, you're burning more calories effortlessly because those muscles require a high caloric intake, you're able to do more exercise. But at the end of the day, what you're also doing when you're kind of starving yourself is you're losing your muscle mass and making it harder for your body to lose the fat because you're burning muscle mass and fat equally. When your body is in that sort of starvation mode, if you were to increase your fast to 22 to 24 hours, I think your body would just kind of go into starvation mode and you get what's called skinny fat, right, where you might not be necessarily overweight, but you might not have the muscle mass you need. And we know that as you age, muscle mass, particularly post menopause, is so important for both men and women over the age of 50 to predict their overall health span and their longevity. So I think this is a great timing. It seems like you're gaining some weight with what you're currently doing, I don't think extending your fast is going to do any good. And I know Vanessa has several studies that have also suggested that fasting with additional protein actually has better output in terms of body composition and weight loss. Or at least body composition and fat loss, I should say. Sometimes we get weight and fat confused. It's definitely from the research I've seen that she shared the way to go, I think this is the perfect time to try it. I would definitely go that route.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm excited to hear how it goes. If you end up trying that, I think that it would be great. If you want to share, report back and see how it's going. And I definitely recommend getting body composition scans done, like now at this point when you're starting and then checking back. Because oftentimes what happens with a lot of the people that I've worked with or hear from, their weight usually stays the same, or it goes up a little on the scale, but it's because they're burning fat and they are either retaining more muscle or gaining some muscle. So, like with your wife's story, I'm betting that six pounds is, like, all fat, and that's a huge amount of just pure body fat to lose, a fat mass to lose, and probably cut down her body fat percentage by a lot. And it's really motivating when you have a Dexa body scan, say, every six months. So, like, do it now. I would recommend doing one now. Just Google Dexa scan near me and do one in six months or in twelve months. And I think you'll be really happy with the progress that you see. Just to know also how much lean body mass you have is great. The scans usually tell you what your resting metabolic rate is, and then you can figure out how many calories to eat at maintenance. I just find it so motivating to get those done.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I agree.

Vanessa Spina:
All right, so our next question comes to us from Marissa, and she says, can you please address isolucine restriction as it relates to longevity? I understand that is a major factor for muscle protein synthesis, but there is also evidence that restriction is beneficial.

Scott Emmens:
So this is a great question. And I actually took the time to look up the study that was connected from Marissa. We could put that in the show notes. It was a study done in mouse, and I just want to take a moment to delineate between isolucine and leucine. Leucine. Isolucine and valine are considered your branch chain amino acids, and they're typically sold in a ratio of two. One. One meaning two of leucine, one of isolucine, one of valine. This study looked at restricting just isolucine, but not leucine, and not valine, just restricting the isolucine, which is not what is in tone and is not what we did. So when we created the leucine capsules, we deliberately did not go with a BCAA, we went with a leucine only capsule. So this study I found particularly interesting because it does suggest that by reducing the isolucine intake, but not the leucine or other amino acids, you have a lower glycemic index. And the mice, both their health span and longevity span increased. Now, I have not seen this data in humans, and I don't think we'll see it for quite some time, but the study in the mice was pretty compelling in terms of their blood sugar, their health span, their longevity and their overall seeming of performance by reducing the isolucine. So the beautiful part about what we're doing is it's just the leucine, right? The leucine capsule and the leucine only. Now, whey protein does have isolucine in it, but not nearly enough that, I think, is going to kind of bump this. Beyond this, I don't have any human data to suggest what that gram per day is. But even in the essential amino acid we created, we went again high on leucine, moderate to low on isolucine, and then actually higher on lysine and some other amino acids in the formula that we've created. So there does seem to be some science behind this, which means you may want to go with just the leucine caps and or the tone protein in leucine caps. And check out our ea blend when that comes out. And for me, though, the other thing I read, I read some additional studies that were linked to this study. It also showed that if you're exercising, particularly weight resistance exercising, that all of these isolucine issues were basically null and void. Right. So as long as you're doing not significant, moderate amounts of both cardio, but in particular weight resistance training, that the isolucine didn't seem to have nearly the impact it did in a non active mouse or non active person. So the studies that I'm referring to were in humans that showed. No, actually, I'm sorry, they were in mice that showed that if the mice were doing active physical workouts, difficult workouts, the isolucine had no impact on their overall longevity or health.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I always go back to the fact that you could add on a few years, maybe live a little bit longer, if your ultimate goal is just to live the longest. But what do you want your quality of life to be at that point? For me, I want to be strong and healthy and vital and energized, and I don't want to just be living as long as possible, but frail. So when it comes to restricting certain amino acids, restricting protein, turning off mtor, which, switching off mtor, which a lot of people are doing with things like rapamycin, I don't know if it's the best idea. If you want to be strong and you want to be running around and enjoying your life as much as possible, I'm okay with not living an extra two years and being frail and unable to do anything. We've all seen family members in that situation, and I don't think it's a really high quality of life. So I'd rather have a higher quality of life and maybe live a year or two less than I possibly could by restricting myself. Like I could fast every day and maybe add on some more time. But what's the point if I have no real muscle mass left and I can't get myself up from the floor or a chair or anything like that, you really want to think about, I think, your quality of life. So there's definitely a lot of research showing that protein restriction, amino acid restriction, mtor suppression can add more years to the lives of rodents. But what is the quality of those years? What's the health span? So I think it's a trade off. I do personally do extended fast a few times a year for autophagy, and there's definitely suppression of mtor that happens then, but it's so tiny, minuscule even compared to my everyday life, where I'm optimizing for optimal protein intake, for taking in all the amino acids to help me stay strong and just go after all my dreams and live the life that I want to. And ultimately, that's what it comes down to for me, is that there are trade offs, and you have to choose which ones you want to optimize for.

Scott Emmens:
It's kind of paradoxical, because every single bit of data we have supports that. Lower leg strength, grip strength, lean muscle mass. All of those are in the top five predictors of both health and lifespan as we age. So it's paradoxical to me that this lower protein concept and this low, eat low calories and you'll live longer. But yet, to your point, you might be living a very frail life and if you do happen to have a slip or a fall and you break a hip because you don't have any muscle mass, you're toast. But you can look this up on Google. You can find dozens and dozens of studies on grip strength, leg strength, lean muscle mass, overall body, always, always in the know five things that are going to predict your longevity and your health span. So it's just a weird paradox to me that this low protein concept or low caloric intake concept over lengthy periods of time works. And there was a monkey study done in, like the, forget it was chimpanzees or what type of primate it was, or monkey, but the monkeys that lived longer were basically kind of miserable and gray, and they didn't look good and they weren't happy. It wasn't a great life. They might have lived six months longer. But to your point, Vanessa, not a great life. So I'm with you on both. Have a healthier health span and maybe give up a year or two. But I'm not sure that that data is going to pan out in the long run because I just see too much data to support muscle strength. Lean muscle mass is critical for longevity and health span.

Vanessa Spina:
Not surprised that we're on the same page about this. And, yeah, I think it's a great question. I think it's definitely something to definitely keep in mind and consider. And the research on life extension and caloric restriction for that is pretty compelling. But again, how do you want the quality of those years to be? And like you said in that those primates sounded like they were not too happy just existing like that.

Scott Emmens:
But as this particular question relates, it was specific to isolucine. So to me, I don't have much of an issue reducing isolucine. I'm going to do a little more digging into it, because if I'm getting my leucine and then just enough isolucine to keep my total protein complete, I wouldn't be opposed to that. Because, again, I think leucine is your main player. As long as you have enough isolucine and complete protein, I think you're fine. So I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, because by limiting that one amino acid, if it does help, great. I think we're on the same page with just generally more protein. Keeping your muscle mass is the best option.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. All right, so our next question comes to us from Stephanie, and she says, what are your thoughts on taking mineral supplements? Specifically, I've been hearing oodles of information on folvic and humic acids. Just wondering, geez, there are so many supplements out there, it's really hard to know what to take and if we even need minerals.

Scott Emmens:
So, yes, we absolutely need minerals. Minerals, I think, get a bad rap in terms of, because they're sort of kind of thought of as basic. People don't recognize all the different minerals and how important they are. Fulvic acid and humic acid are great ways to get small amounts of trace minerals and modest amounts of some of your larger minerals. Get about 70 to 75 in a fulvic acid. Between 80 and 85 in a humic acid. They're very closely related. You do have to source it properly because they're generally kind of dug up from salts and dirt. I shouldn't say dirt, but basically out of the earth. Right. And so you want to make sure you're getting a high quality source that's not contaminated and it's tested. But those are really good ways to get a lot of nutrients and minerals that you wouldn't otherwise get. Another great way to do it is a multivitamin that has all of your main minerals and your trace minerals. And just to emphasize how important minerals are. So we've all heard about magnesium, right? They're saying now upwards of 600 different enzymatic processes are conducted by magnesium. That is a remarkable amount. You can't make your neurotransmitters properly without magnesium. Zinc is also required for dna, for wound healing. Copper is required for collagen synthesis, wound healing. Let's see. You've got boron that helps with your bone structure. That also helps with some brain function. And fertility. And testosterone in men. Fertility for women. And testosterone and fertility for men. But definitely it's a factor in strong bones. You've also got selenium, which is very important for your immune system. So are minerals important and do we need them? Absolutely. And I think we probably have more of a mineral deficiency in this country than we could possibly imagine. Way beyond just magnesium. We know we're monocropping and our soils are really deplete of minerals. I take a multimineral every day, plus a trace mineral. And I often will seek out products that have a little folvic acid or humic acid in it. Although it's not been my go to because I try to look at a simple way to get multivitamins or multiminerals in like a multivitamin, for example, makes it simple. Or I bought a few products that I'm looking to create that have all the minerals I want in them, along with some trace minerals. So yes, minerals are exceedingly important on their own, right? But then they also act as cofactors for all kinds of things. Protein synthesis, muscle recovery, as electrolytes, which is very important for your heart rate and your brain function and your neurotransmitters. I could go on and on, but yes, they're very important. And I think a wide spectrum general multi mineral will get the job done for the average person. And if you want to go with sulvic humic acid, I think that's a great way to start.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing all of that. Now, we have one last question on today's episode from Lori on Facebook, if you'd like to read it.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely, Lori, thanks for the question. I'd love ideas on how to firm up my skin after weight loss. After the age of 50, I wish I could afford a juve, but are there any more affordable options? Well, absolutely there are. So the first one I'll mention is our wonderful host. Vanessa has multiple red lights now, and I think others in development, and she's got really high quality panels. It matters what the power of those are, it matters what the depth is, and it matters what the nanometers are of those lights. And Vanessa's done all of that research to give you a really affordable, great quality, long lasting product. So I would highly recommend that there are other products you can use for different applications. I do also, beyond Vanessa's panel, also use some pads for my daughter. For example, she runs division one track, so sometimes she'll get like a cramp on her lower back. And I just bought her like this high powered sort of belt that goes around her back so she can get that, or it wraps around her hamstrings if she's having some hamstring issues. And that's really because I know my daughter's not going to take the time to put the panel on. And if I can just strap it on her and let her walk around with it, she's going to use it. So it really depends on what your use is. But there are a lot of other brands. But I would start with Vanessa's because I know she's done the research and I know it works. I wish I could afford a Juve, too, but I don't think it's any better than the products you can get for much less money. I think the big advantage is it's a giant full body board. They're a great company, but I don't think I could afford $1,500 mat. So I'll pass on that. She also said other ideas, so I don't know if you have other ideas on firming up skin, maybe hyaluronic acid or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So a couple of things. Thank you so much for mentioning the tone Lux line of red light therapy panels. I created them with love, and we definitely love Juve on this podcast. They've been a sponsor for years, and they have amazing full body panels. You also have a lot of alternatives out there. You can check out the tomlex line that I created as well. And there's a lot you can do with a half body panel. You can pretty much target your whole body with a half body panel without needing to have a full body panel. But I have a couple of things that I love. So I think the number one thing that I wish I had learned when I was younger, well, there's two. The first is exfoliation that I actually have been doing for a long time. So once or twice a week, I use a scrub on my face, because one of the main ways to keep your skin looking youthful is to get rid of the old skin cells. So if you use a scrub on your face, there's some great ones out there. You will help your body in clearing out those dead skin cells and help that cellular renewal on your skin. So that one I do and have been doing for a long time, the one that I wish I knew about earlier was serums, because I always thought that moisturizer was what you needed. But actually moisturizer helps you keep and lock moisture in. But what's really helpful is using serums. So vitamin C serums, retinoid serums, serums with retinol in them if you're not pregnant. Of course, I haven't been using the retinol ones, but I'm looking forward to using them again as I get back into my routines. And they can be really powerful, really helpful. I interviewed this amazing plastic surgeon, Dr. Anthony Yoon, and he really was explaining this to me about the power of retinoids and just vitamin C serum. So after cleansing the skin in the morning and night, using some toner if possible, he says it's not necessarily necessary, but definitely using a serum and that really helps, that actually improves your skin, whereas putting a moisturizer, which you do after that is more for comfort. And I think a lot of people have that twisted, like I did for so long. I thought, well, moisturizer makes your skin more moist and more hydrated, but it doesn't. It just locks it in. So it's a good idea to use moisturizer on your body and skin after you shower. When you have a lot of moisture there, you can lock that in. But in terms of actually having beneficial effects, the serums are really important. And the last thing that I do is I mentioned I do a couple of extended fast throughout the year. I find that that is amazing for autophagy. And my skin always feels and looks incredible. And the autophagy really is clearing out those dead skin cells, not only inside our bodies, but also on the skin surface. And so making sure that you have no contraindications for that, if that's something you're interested in, you can definitely get a lot of benefits. You have to be careful. Talk to your care provider, make sure if you're on medication, especially because your levels of medication can change a lot if you're doing an extended fast. But once a year, a 36 hours, two, three day, up to four or five days can do amazing things for not just the whole body. We were talking about how so many of the biohacks that we do today, it's really just to get back to homeostasis, to get out of our own way. And once in a while, I do like those for the skin. I think it can be beneficial, but you really don't want to overdo it. You don't want to go into too much proteolysis and break down your muscle and lose your hard earned muscle. And if you're in a situation where you don't have that much lean body mass or your low body weight, it's probably not the best idea either. So those are just a few things, and I think that they can be really beneficial. And of course, the red light therapy I'm obsessed with. And it's why I recently launched the Telnex crystal red light therapy mask, because it is amazing. There are so many powerful benefits to these different wavelengths of light, especially in the red, near infrared and orange spectrum of the sun. But you can get that therapeutically without the harmful rays that come from the sun. That can actually create sunspots or exposure. And I'm all about getting good amount of sun exposure, but not overdoing it. It's so great for vitamin D and forgetting all those wavelengths. But you have to also, if you overdo it, you can end up with sunspots like I did. I have a couple, and I'm using the crystal mask to help with that. And I'm noticing some big improvements. And I've gotten so much feedback from people who've purchased the tone Lux Sapphire panel who've purchased some of the other panels that their dermatologists are saying, wow, I'm seeing major improvements. So that's like the best validation for me, that the panels are powerful and effective, and it just makes me so happy when I get feedback like that. So thanks again for mentioning those, and thanks again for the wonderful question. We had so many fantastic questions between these two episodes. I so appreciate you being here, Scott, taking the time to answer and opine and share your expertise and knowledge with the guests. So thank you so much for being here and for joining us today. Where can everyone connect with you and follow you online and maybe even connect with you if they have a question?

Scott Emmens:
Well, thank you so much for having me. I always learn a ton. Like I said, I really enjoy getting these questions. They're always really well thought out and very specific, and it really helps keep me informed, and it's my pleasure to help people help themselves. So thank you for having me. If you'd like to reach out to me directly, you can do so on Instagram @longevityprotocol. I also have an account called collagen guru, but I don't check that one that often. But longevity protocol is my main Instagram handle. You can also reach me through our website, mdlogic health. That's www.mdlogichealth.com. If you just go to the contact us and know. I'd like to speak to Scott Emmons about such and such. I don't necessarily take questions just in general, but if you have a specific reason that you're reaching out about a product or something that you'd like to partner with us on, you can reach me there. Or my Dm on Instagram are the two best ways to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Well, thanks again, Scott, for being here. I really, truly appreciate it and I had such a wonderful time and appreciate all the brilliant questions that we received. So thank you to all of you. Now you can catch up with me and follow me on Instagram at Ketogenic Girl. And you can also check out the Optimal Protein podcast, and you can check out the tone device, the tone luxe red light therapy line that I created@ketogenicgirl.com, and we will link everything in the show notes for you all, as usual. So sending you all so much love. Thanks for being here, and we'll catch you guys on the next one.

Scott Emmens:
Much appreciated. Take care. Bye. Vanessa, thank you.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Feb 11

Episode 356: Special Guest: Glenn Livingston, Ph.D., Cravings, Bingeing, Overeating, Variable Ratio Intermittent Reinforcement, Mindful Eating, Extinction Curve Timeline, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 356 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get Chicken Thighs, Ground Beef, or Steak tips for a YEAR for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get chicken thighs, ground beef, or steak tips for a YEAR for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Go to Defeat Your Cravings for a free copy of Defeat Your Cravings!

The lessons learned since the first book

What is "the pig"?

Loving yourself thin?

Mindful eating myth

Food rules and rebellion

Intermittent fasting

Extinction curve timeline

Eating by design

Hacking your cravings

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 356 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends, this is a very special episode today with Dr. Glenn Livingston. We don't even remotely touch on everything in his book, which is such a valuable resource. I cannot recommend enough. Everybody get it. And it's completely free, which is insane. So just go to freecravingsbook.com.

Melanie Avalon:
That's freecravingsbook.com. You can download the book completely free. It is such a valuable tool. It goes into the science of cravings, the science of overeating and bingeing, provides step by step plans to tackle the inner voice, your inner pig, that's telling you to eat all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
It has troubleshooting recovery plans, refutations for everything your inner pig might say and all the excuses it might make. So many things cannot recommend it enough. Freecravingsbook.com. Pause the podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Go download it now. You will not regret it. All right. Now enjoy this fabulous conversation with my dear, dear friend, Dr. Glenn Livingston. Hi friends, welcome back to the intermittent fasting podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode 356. And this is a very, very special episode, very long time coming. I am here with my dear, dear friend, Dr. Glenn Livingston friends. I have talked about Glenn so much on this show.

Melanie Avalon:
So a lot of you are probably already familiar through me mentioning it or through reading his prior work. Glenn is the author of a book that had thousands of reviews about overeating issues, binging issues, craving issues.

Melanie Avalon:
And since then he has released a new iteration of the book, updated it, added the latest science, added his latest thoughts. And I cannot recommend enough this book. It is called Defeat Your Cravings, The Back Door to Weight Loss.

Melanie Avalon:
And friends, the reason I've talked about Glenn so much on this show before is because he has a, if you're not familiar with it, a paradigm shifting mindset approach tool technique thing, which I'm sure we'll talk about in order to really address those moments of food temptation and cravings, especially with you guys doing intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
You might have these moments where you really want to eat these things that you're used to eating or that you're craving. And Glenn has a brilliant, simple, effective method that has helped so many people.

Melanie Avalon:
I personally have implemented it. Glenn, we were talking right before this about how we got connected, which was through your publicist, I believe. But did you know, I'd been reading your books way before that.

Melanie Avalon:
Did you know that? I've been following you for years. I did not know that. Yeah. Since like 20, when did you publish your first book? What year?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
2015.

Melanie Avalon:
Since then. Really? Yeah. Because I can remember where I was when I first read your book and it was in the apartment that I lived in like 2016. So right after that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm honored. You were a very young lady at that time.

Melanie Avalon:
I was. Those were the days.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You still look pretty young, lady.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Thank you. Wow, that's crazy. And even at that time, when I read it, it had a lot of... I mean, that was in the beginning and it had a lot of reviews and a lot of fanfare. So, I'm super curious.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, we need to talk about your system and everything, but this new book, Defeat Your Cravings, what inspired you to write it? Well, I think it's a great book.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The whole system, I wrote the first book, which had almost 20 ,000 reviews now, I think, in 2015 while I was getting divorced, basically about how I personally overcame overeating. It was different than the standard approach out there, although I've come to learn that it actually resonates with what the evidence says works for overcoming overeating, which is cognitive behavioral therapy and maybe some SSRI medication.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I wrote it in the absence of a deep knowledge of the science of cravings formation and extinction. Since I wrote that book, I've had experience with over a million readers of the first book and over a million readers in psychology today, and over 2 ,000 paying clients who came through my group and individual programs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I feel like I have a much more comprehensive understanding of how to overcome overeating now than I did way back when. Also, Melanie, while I was getting divorced, I was in a pretty angry state of mind, and I feel like it came through in the book.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I wrote it like a pissed -off middle -aged guy getting divorced. I think that in some ways, that's why it became so popular because it was a radically different way of looking at it's a tough love approach to taking control of your own mind.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I don't think it had the same level of compassion that I really have for over -readers. I also don't think it was nearly as comprehensive or doctor -like. Like I am a psychologist. I do think in a comprehensive way, and there are pieces and parts that come together.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The old book was really about fixing your thinking to stop overeating and how I fixed my thinking by keeping a journal, and it took me a while. And then we worked with all these clients, and I had all these coaches working with me.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We got really good at fixing people's thinking quickly. But what would happen is, I can give examples of all this if you want to, but what would happen is, no matter how well I help people to disempower their excuses about overeating, they would still get to this point where they said, screw it, just do it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I know you can't really start tomorrow because tomorrow never comes. If you say start tomorrow and you eat a bar of chocolate, that you're going to reinforce both the craving and the thought about starting tomorrow.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So you are more likely to say start tomorrow again tomorrow and have a stronger craving. And so you can only ever use the present moment to be healthy, and if you're in a hole, you better stop digging.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That would be an example of fixing your thinking. And that's what the whole old program was about. But it was very, very effective. We got by like 2022, we were to the point that after one month, people would have reduced their overeating self -reported episodes by about 89 .4%.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But if the six -month market was more like 55% and the year market was a little lower, and that really bothered me, and I don't know if I'm giving you a long -winded answer to your very first question.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so then we saw the screw it, just do it, response, and that's when I realized I had to update the book and put in everything I knew about overcoming that response, which has more to do with overcoming organismic distress and understanding the science of craving that it does with fixing your thinking.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So that's why I wrote the new book.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I did not know that about you going through. I knew about your divorce, but I didn't know that that was during that time of writing that first book. I can totally see the change in tone in the second one.

Melanie Avalon:
I loved how you go deep into the science of everything in this new iteration. I thought it was so fascinating. And that's so interesting about that second phase response. So now, because you open the book with a really, you know, it sounds like a pipe dream, salesy, almost too good to be true.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you really help 85% now perpetually?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We don't have data on the perpetual level. We just opened the new program a couple of months ago. So I could tell you that it's more. It's, I don't have a statistically reliable sample yet, but I can tell you that it's more.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That's what I can tell you. And just, you know, anecdotally, qualitatively, my experience in working with people like this is that it's easier to hold onto than just fixing your thinking.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So I'm trying to decide because I have so many specific nuanced questions about the approach, but can we just tell listeners a little bit about the actual concept? So what is the pig?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Let me first say, I had a very serious over -reading problem myself that I tried everything you could imagine to fix it for about 20 years. I come from a family of 17 psychotherapists, and when something breaks in the house, everybody knows how to ask it, how it feels, and nobody knows how to fix it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so, for the first 20 years of my trying to overcome over -reading, I was trying to love myself then. I thought there was a hole in my heart, and if I could fix that hole in my heart, then I could probably fix the hole in my stomach, or I wouldn't have to keep trying to fill the hole in my stomach.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I went to a psychologist and psychiatrist, and over it is anonymous, and I cried and I screamed, and I had a spiritual journey, and it made me a very soulful person, but it really didn't fix the problem.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I get a little thinner and a lot fatter every time I tried something new. And during that time, I was also consulting for industry. I was married to a woman who commuted, who traveled for business most of the week, and I had time for a second career.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I was a child and family psychologist with a big practice, but I also started doing advertising research for the food industry and the pharma industry, but most of the food industry. And in the course of doing that, while I was going through all of these love yourself thin rituals, I started to notice that they were spending millions of dollars to get these rocket scientists to engineer hyperpalatable concentrations of starch and sugar and fat and salt and exciter toxins, and it was all geared at hitting the bliss point in the reptilian brain without giving you enough nutrition to feel satisfied.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And eventually, looking at that got through to me, it made me realize that maybe it's not about the fact that my mama dropped me on my head or her mama dropped her in her head or that she didn't love me enough or she was going through something of her own when I was little.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Maybe it has more to do with what these big companies are doing and they're hitting these evolutionary buttons and creating addiction. And the hitting these evolutionary buttons that exist in the reptilian brain, it's not the higher brain where love lives and long -term goals and achievement live and strategic planning and rational thinking.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They're hitting our primitive survival buttons. And I eventually thought to myself, maybe I need a more of a tough love approach. Maybe you can't really love yourself thin because the part of the brain that they're targeting doesn't really know love and kind of bringing you up to speed about what is the pig.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I did something a little crazy. I decided that I had to create a kind of tripwire. If I was going to be the alpha wolf of my own brain when this lower part of my brain was trying to take control, I said, I need to create a kind of a tripwire so that I know when it's active.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so I would make a rule, like I will never have chocolate on a weekday again. And that way, if I was in a Starbucks and there was a big old chocolate bar on the counter, and it was calling to me and I heard a little voice in my head that said, you know what, Glenn, you worked out hard enough and you're not going to gain any weight if you have a couple of ounces of chocolate.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Go ahead and start your silly rule tomorrow. Let's just get some of the chocolate right now. Yippee, feed me. I would say, wait a minute, that's not me. That's my inner pig squealing for pig slap. And chocolate is pig slap on a Wednesday.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I don't eat pig slap. And I don't let farm animals tell me what to do. And Melanie, I was not going to teach this. I was not going to publish this. This was a very private thing internally. I will tell everyone you don't have to call it a pig.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You can call it a food monster or anything that's just a little bit aversive to you that you don't want to take control. But you do need to have something that wakes you up at that moment of impulse and makes you say, well, wait a minute to hear who's in charge because you're going to need to research yourself at that point.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if you think that you need to love yourself more at that point, it's going to leave you very vulnerable to the to the pig taking control. So what I'd done back then was I established a tripwire and it would wake me up and I'd have these extra microseconds to make a better choice.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I wouldn't always make the right choice. I wasn't instantly cured, but sometimes I did more so than I did before I made the tripwire. And over time, I experimented with different rules. I would start to fix what the pig was saying.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So if it said, you know, oh, one bite is not going to make a difference, I would say, well, it's never just a bite. And one bite is the difference between whether you're in charge or I'm in charge, which is a totally different way of life.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a difference between making important food decisions with my head and my intellect versus making them with my emotions and whims and impulses. And so, you know, one bite is a tragedy. And I would disempower that thought.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And over the course of about eight years, I got better by fixing my thinking about food, fixing my thinking about food. So that's what the pig is. The pig is the, it's the sum total of all the thoughts that suggest you're going to break very specific rules that you lay out for yourself.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, we define it as that, which is also a good definition of your lower self. And then you are all the, all the thoughts and feelings that suggest that you're going to stick to your plans. And by, by accomplishing that separation, what I know now that we're, we were doing was interfering with the automatic habit loops that the brain is so good at implementing in order to acquire calories and nutrition.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It just opened up the space between stimulus and response where I could start to, I could start to have an impact, whereas nothing else did. When I would be thinking about, you know, like earlier on I'd be thinking about, well, maybe I really need a hug or maybe I need to cry about, you know, what my mother did to me when I was a kid or, you know, maybe I need to assert myself in some way with someone that bothered me when I was thinking about all these emotional needs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It didn't give me the clarity to figure out the choices that I could make. And also there's, those emotional needs are pretty hard to fulfill. And it's, it's hard to fix the traumas that you went through as a kid.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And it's hard to, you make yourself dependent upon, dependent upon what happens with these other people in relationships if you feel like you've got to solve all of those conflicts before you stop with reading.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
When I just started focusing on that space between stimulus and response and what I could do, that's when I started to get better.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love two big myths that you dismantled there. One is the loving yourself, then the emotional role of it. And you even mentioned in the book, you said that you talk about how your work with clients and how some clients do still insist on starting with the emotional work first.

Melanie Avalon:
And you say that when that's the order that less than half of the time, are they ultimately successful and everything? But you also draw attention to the fact that people can still, you know, work on their emotional connection and the reasons and everything, but it's not like the actionable step that you can implement now that can actually make the change and change the habits and, you know, address those habit loops.

Melanie Avalon:
So, so effective.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I remember a guy that told me that if I really wanted to know what my psychological traumas were, that I should stop overeating and then I would know, as opposed to trying to fix all my traumas before I stopped overeating.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Right? And it's true. If you, the brain has difficulty conducting the emotions when the digestive system is overloaded with food. And so when you're constantly overeating, you're not really aware of all the thoughts and feelings surrounding your traumas.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So it actually works better to focus on these very practical techniques to stop overeating and then go hire a good therapist to help you with them or psychologist or psychiatrist to help you process the traumas.

Melanie Avalon:
And then sort of related the second huge paradigm shift myth busting that happens. There's the whole mindful eating world. And there's this idea that we should be able to mindfully eat these foods in small amounts.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's funny because I listened to so many podcasts. And I was listening to a podcast once, and I got so angry, which kind of says something about me. Like, clearly, I was being triggered by the episode, so I'm not sure what that means.

Melanie Avalon:
But basically, the girl being interviewed was making this very elaborate case for why we should always be able to eat a little bit of anything. And if we don't, if we feel like we're not able to, or if we have like a quote restriction rule around it, that means that we are not in touch with ourselves.

Melanie Avalon:
And it means that we, you know, it means there's work still for us to do if we can't have just like a little piece of the chocolate. When for me, I'm like, well, chocolate, I don't really have a problem with.

Melanie Avalon:
But if it's like Fun Fetti Cake, if I have one piece of that, it's not food. It's like a processed drug thing that is programmed to make me crave it and want it more. So I don't feel like I should have to mindfully eat that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, what are your thoughts on mindful eating?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, I think 100 ,000 years ago, we wouldn't have needed food rules and we could have eaten when we were hungry and stopped when we were full. And I think that eating mindfully is a good idea, but it's not sufficient to help you eat healthy in today's modern food environment.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So the food industry is manufacturing things which can turn off your ability to know when you're hungry and full. And I mean, literally there are, you know, hormone, there's hormone interference in some of the packaging.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so if what you're eating has broken your ability to know when you're mind, when you're hungry and full, then how can you rely on your ability to know when you're hungry and full entirely to control it?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So my metaphor would be more like driving. I think it's really important to drive mindfully to be present while you're driving and pay attention. But you also need to pay attention to the lights and the stop signs and the yield signs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And, you know, in a city without stop signs and yield signs and traffic lights, you wouldn't really, really be safe to drive around. So I think that the controls actually expand your freedom and make it possible to navigate a larger radius of locomotion.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, have the free flow of commerce and socialization in a city or, you know, like the metaphor we go back to making it possible to enjoy more foods and more taste satisfaction and more freedom.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I think that the rules make it possible to do that versus the you've got to be able to eat everything approach. Some people respond negative. Well, let me see one more thing about it before I go into how some people respond.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I think that a good food rule is like a kitchen knife and you could use it to over restrict or you could use it to chop vegetables. So I don't think the problem is the knife. I think the problem is the way that the rules are used.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I mean, I would refer that people use it to chop vegetables. Some people are overtaken by a feeling of rebelliousness and response to rules. And so either they make rules that are way too strict. And, you know, like if you say, I'm only going to eat 500 calories a day, your survival systems are going to be on overload, trying to press you to have a lot more.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And they're going to say, forget about your silly rule. So it's really hard to maintain that. You know, so there's some rules you can't make. I always joke and say you couldn't make a rule that say I'll never pee again because your bladder is going to tell you otherwise.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You need to authentically nourish yourself. But let's just seem to have a reasonable rule. There are some people who are thrown by the rebellious feelings that the rules engender. And I would say that the goal in my system is to sever the link between all emotions and overeating and make important food decisions with your head.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And rebellion is just another emotion. Why do you want to reify the rebel inside of you? Or can't you just understand that as another emotion, like anxiety or anger or, you know, or sadness or... You don't need to eat because you feel too angry.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You don't need to eat because you feel too sad. You don't need to eat because you feel too anxious. Why do you have to eat because you feel too rebellious? Why can't you follow the rule anyway? So I'm in favor of teaching people to eat by design rather than to eat on impulse.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I have a disagreement with the mindfully community that it says that you have to allow all foods. I do have a disagreement with that. I think it's very possible to use rules to be over restrictive. And if you are physically over restrictive, your body will rebel for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Those aren't the kind of rules that we encourage people to make. We actually try to get people to make weight loss kind of a secondary goal. And the first goal is to have a normal, calmer, easier, more peaceful relationship with food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, where you're flooding your body with nutrition and a slight caloric deficit if you want to lose weight and you're not going through these tremendous ups and downs. And really the primary purpose is to be able to make decisions about foods and foods behaviors that were previously under the control of your impulses and emotions instead.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So does that answer your question?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And you know what's really interesting? It's actually, well, first of all, I'm very much a rules -oriented person. So to me, it works really well right off the bat because I see rules as freedom.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I can live my life when I have the rules in place and you answer my question because I was gonna ask about people who are rebellious or have you read Gretchen Rubin's Fortunes?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you would like it. Are you familiar with it? A little. It's like basically, do you fulfill inner or outer or a blend or neither expectations? So which rules do you follow or which rules do you rebel against?

Melanie Avalon:
And she has it, four different types of people.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
as I can need to read that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, probably. I mean, it goes so well with your work. But interestingly, it's actually very similar. So the example you're making about the knife and how it's used, and then also the rules, it's actually very similar to me hearing it to intermittent fasting because you're basically setting up these rules about when you eat or don't eat.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not personal, it's not emotional, at least it's not supposed to be. Then you just exist within that frame. And anything during the fasting window, any voice you would hear telling you to eat is, it would be quote, pig squeal, with the assumption that those rules, those fasting rules aren't being made from an overrestrictive place.

Melanie Avalon:
So they aren't using the knife like you said to. What did you say? What was the bad way to use it?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, you could imagine bad ways to use a knife but just use a knife to chop vegetables. We find the best results when people start with a 12 hour window to begin with. And then after a couple of months, if they want to have a tighter window, then it can work out.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But you and I want to talk about this. And you explained to me why that might be. I just know that it is. I find that if people, unless they've been intermittent fasting for a long time or they're not eating a lot of processed food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I think that when people have been, especially if they've been binging or just eating a lot of bags and boxes and containers of stuff, I find that we do better if they'll start with a 12 hour window before they tighten that up.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Do you have thoughts about that?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see that working. And for a lot of people, easing in to intermittent fasting is the approach that really works for them. And I can see how, especially if they're coming from a sort of binging type background or overeating type background, that that would be, you know, a really powerful approach.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, then it wouldn't be just relying on intermittent fasting to, quote, fix everything. It's this really, really powerful mindset tool, you know, psychological tool that you've created. So, I mean, if it's working in your clients, sounds like a plan to me.

Melanie Avalon:
And 1212 is, I don't want to make assumptions, but I think a lot of people on the standard American diet eating system, if they haven't thought about it before and they were randomly asked how much do they eat during the day, they might think it's like 1212.

Melanie Avalon:
But when they've done studies where they actually see what people are eating, people are eating like constantly, like most people eat once they wake up and then they snack throughout the day and then they snack right before bed.

Melanie Avalon:
So most people aren't, you know, are not doing a 1212 thing. So, you know, that's a great place to start.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Okay, good. That's a good intersection of our work then. Melanie, you know that the last thing I want to see about them, the allow everything approach is that it does work for some people. I don't want to discourage people from doing that if it really works for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We get complaints from the people that come to us who that was working for. They'll say, I'm not binging because I allow everything. So I don't ever feel rebellious, but I don't feel like I can eat as healthy as I want to.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They're trying to achieve a higher level of health. And I think that's a benefit of our system is helping you to get there.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically they can use the system to make these new choices surrounding what they're eating within that mosaic of eating everything. Awesome. Awesome. And listeners, I really, really cannot recommend enough getting the book.

Melanie Avalon:
Just get it now. Get it now. If you've ever experienced anything with cravings or overeating or any struggles with food, it's crazy. I just think this is a reason that your work has had such an incredible response.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy how much people will identify with it. You get so specific and you list off things and it's like, oh yeah, I've literally heard that exact thing in my head. It's kind of like Taylor Swift.

Melanie Avalon:
How she relates to everybody for the people who like Taylor Swift.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The book is free on the website, by the way, for Ken O 'Nilkin PDF.

Melanie Avalon:
So you can get it free at freecravingsbook.com. Okay, get it now. Freecravingsbook.com. So I have a few questions, specific questions that I liked with content that you had in this book specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's been a while since I read your first one. I actually read a lot of, because you had quite a few. I've written eight books. Eight books, okay. I probably read, I probably read half of those probably.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Most of them were written in the early years though. I hadn't written a book since 2019.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, in the early years, I remember I read your first book and then I was like, oh, I got to read all of them. So but in any case, so I think the things I'm going to ask you about right now are new to this book, but they might have been touched on in previous books.

Melanie Avalon:
So one of the things I found so fascinating was you talk about the extinction curve timeline. So the actual process that well, first of all, you talk about the science of a habit and a craving and what the brain actually goes through.

Melanie Avalon:
And then when you stop indulging that, what the brain goes through and what that looks like and what that timeline looks like, which is probably very helpful to people because apparently it's got some twists and turns and you think you're you think you're through it and then you're not.

Melanie Avalon:
Was this the first time we're talking about the extinction curve timeline?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
This is the first thing I'm talking about it with you, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you talk about it in the previous books?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
No, no, no, we had a webinar once about it, but that's not available anymore.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so it was new. So one of the things I found so fascinating is, because I think a lot of times people will, you know, be working on a specific craving or not eating a certain food, and then they'll be doing pretty good, and then they'll wanna have it, you know, like a slip up, like just this one time, like it'll just be this one time, but even if it is just that one time, you point out the role of randomness and that if you, and I'll let you explain it better, but basically this idea that the uncertainty surrounding whether or not you're going to have something makes the brain want it even more.

Melanie Avalon:
So if you randomly do indulge, you're actually making it much worse, even if it's just that quote one time. I was wondering if you could expand on that a little bit more. I find this so fascinating.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Rather than jumping into the middle to make that one particular point, I'd like to give you some background about how cravings are formed and extinguished in the first place. And then it'll be easier to explain why randomly reinforcing a craving is about the worst thing you could do.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Is that okay? That's perfect. So let's start with the understanding that if you have a strong craving, if you have stronger cravings than other people, that's actually a sign that you have a healthier mind than other people, a healthier brain than other people, not a sick mind.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You need to know that 100 ,000 years ago, food was not nearly as abundant as it is now. And as a consequence, we had to work for it a lot. As a matter of fact, the bulk of our day was probably involved in sourcing and finding and motivating in ourselves to go find food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if we, if we didn't have strong cravings, we would have died because we wouldn't have been motivated to, you know, go hunt and gather and, you know, organize and bring food back and feed our family.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so the brain evolved this system for motivating us to do what was necessary to go find food. And it does that through the use mostly of dopamine. And it, it does that through the same mechanism to form the craving and extinguish the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So this is important also, because people think that they must be broken. They can form cravings, but they can't extinguish them. But it's not true. If you have a strong craving, it means your brain is working, which means that the extinction process will work also.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So that's very important to overcome any notion that your brain is broken like that. If you don't have lesions in your ventromedial hypothalamus, or, you know, if you haven't had a serious brain trauma, and sometimes even if you have it, it's very unlikely that you can't extinguish a craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Okay. So let's, let's imagine there is a caveman. I'll call him Thag, T -H -A -G, Thag. And I just like the name. It's a random. I love it. It's a really random name. And let's say that Thag is out looking for food and he sees a monkey.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And he follows a monkey to a banana tree. And Thag is so happy that he gorges himself on bananas. He would have eaten mass quantities because remember food was scarce back then. And it would have taken as many as he could back to his wife and family.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
What would then happen is that the next time Thag saw a monkey, his brain would secrete a bunch of dopamine and try to get Thag to follow the monkey because he was more likely to find food if he followed a monkey than if he was just randomly searching.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So the monkey had some utility. We'll call the monkey a food signal. And in today's modern environment, that would be akin to seeing a sign for a donut store or a hamburger place or, you know, a convenience store that you're familiar with, all of the branding and signage.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Their food signals also, they lead you to the acquisition of calories and nutrition and sometimes just calories. Now, suppose that I decide that I'm eating too many donuts. I'm stopping at this one particular donut store on the way home from work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I'm having three or four donuts every time. And so I'm developing a little punch and I decide I have to extinguish that. So I decide to make a rule that says, I will never stop for donuts on the way home from work again.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And what most people think will happen at that point, and I'm going to go back to Thag in a minute to explain why, but most people think what will happen is that you're going to have the worst cravings on day one.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's going to be hardest on day one. Then it'll be a little less hard on day two, a little less hard on day three, all the way until you get to the point that the donut store doesn't bother you anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But that's not actually what happens. What happens is you have a little honeymoon period right away. So it's actually easier than you think it's going to be for the first couple of days or exposures, which are an exposure is passing the donut store and not having the donut.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then the brain does something which is called an extinction burst. I call it the worthy effort of my donuts reaction. It says, I used to get donuts whenever I passed the store and I don't get donuts anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Where am I calories? See, the brain thinks that this is keeping you alive. It thinks that the acquisition of massive amounts of calories is necessary to keep you alive. It thinks you're going to die if you don't stop for donuts.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That's why this is so difficult. Why does it do that? Let's go back to Thag. Thag follows a monkey the next day, and at least to a tree with bananas, he's really happy. And then the next thing, and the next thing, and the next day, and it becomes a really solid habit.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
He gets so excited when he sees monkeys. But then one day, Thag follows a monkey. It's later in the season, the bananas will become scarce, and they get to a tree without any bananas on it. Thag was really sad and disappointed.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Many people think that at that point, in fact, his brain would give up and would stop motivating him to follow monkeys to trees. But what it does instead is it doubles down, it secretes even more dopamine, and makes Thag even more motivated to go follow monkeys to trees.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And the reason for that is that it would be more beneficial, more of a survival advantage, to hold on to a food signal, to find a monkey that led you to a tree with bananas 70% of the time, or 50% or even 20% of the time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It would still be a survival advantage as opposed to having no monkey at all. Your brain is a calorie acquisition machine, and when it's learned that there's a signal that makes it more likely you're going to find food than if you didn't have that signal, it doesn't wanna let go of that, and it's gonna motivate you to engage in the behavior that led to the calorie acquisition before.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So what that corresponds to in the extinction curve is this extraordinary effort to test whether the reward has become available at random. It's called intermittent variable ratio, intermittent reinforcement.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's like what happens with a slot machine. You don't know when it's gonna pay off. So you know you have to be there pulling the lever. This is why those little ladies get stuck at the Las Vegas slot machines, because they don't know when it's gonna pay off.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And sometimes they'll even fight if they go to the bathroom and someone takes their spot for a second. There's this feeling of compulsion that you have to get the reward. And that's you have to be there to get the reward.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You have to engage in the behavior to get the reward. And that's what the extinction burst or the worthy effort in my donuts reaction is about, your brain is testing to see whether the reward has become intermittently available at random.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Now, if you push through that, what most people do is they say, oh my God, this is too hard. And their inner pigs say, well, this torture is gonna last forever. You obviously can't do it. What most people do at that point is they give up and they reward the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They reward the food signal. And so now they've proven to the brain that it was intermittently available at random. And the brain goes, oh, good, I did the right thing. I generated this extinction burst.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I generated this horrible craving. And the extinction curve resets and people start to feel like they're powerless over the problem. But it's really just because they don't understand what's happening.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if you can tell yourself, you don't have to do anything about that craving. What you want to do is plan out these extinction curves, pick a very particular craving, plan out the extinction curve, and plan to take extra good care of yourself over the course of the whole curve.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So what reinforces people's willpower is having good enough nutrition and good enough sleep and good enough hydration and feeling like they're part of a tribe and they're not isolated and minimizing their other decisions they have to make over the course of the day.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And what you want to do is take this all very seriously. Don't go into battle wearing a plastic helmet. Tell yourself this is going to be hard. The brain doesn't want to give up the calorie acquisition learning, but you can push through it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Once you do, then you start to enter a more or less linear reduction in cravings. But the brain is going to throw out a couple of mini tantrums at the very end of the extinction curve. Somewhere around the 20 to 30 exposure mark, you're going to get a couple of little tries, little cravings for donuts.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you push through that and you allow you know, allow the full extinction curve to take place, you will then hardly be bothered at all because the brain will then say, okay, it's obviously a waste of energy to follow the monkeys.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's obviously just a waste of energy to get you all motivated when you see the donut sign. I'm going to label this as dormant. It's not gonna erase the craving. It's not gonna erase the learning because what if monkeys lead to banana trees again someday, but it's gonna label it dormant so it won't bother you unless and until you reinforce it again?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Does that make sense, Melanie? Yes, it does. So then, if you don't want to give up donuts entirely and two or three people are capable of doing this, and if you've gone too far down the, you know, the automation loop and you've dug too deep of a groove, then it might be you have to give up, but I give it up.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I find that two or three people can moderate rather than abstain. The way you do that is to very specifically bind the reward to a particular context.

Melanie Avalon:
I just love this concept so much.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
much? Well, yeah, because it makes it possible for you to have what you want without having to, you know, give up your freedom. We call it eating by design. So if you were to say, I will only ever have donuts on Saturday mornings after my workout and no more than two.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
What you're really doing is setting up a set of food signals that have to work in concert and your brain is smart. It knows how to recognize the particular contacts. It'll say, okay, I need to have experience the workout.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's got to be Saturday. It's got to be morning. And there's a limit of two. And it's kind of like if you were to have a slot machine in a casino that only paid off on Saturday mornings at 10am, the casino would be empty all week long.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The little old ladies would suddenly not be there after a week or two, they would not be there because it only paid off on Saturday. And then there'd be a mad rush on Saturdays. And so that's how cravings work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole. The last thing I would tell you about cravings, which is important, is that, well, two more things. One is that at the end of the extinction curve, when things are starting to be labeled dormant, a lot of people make the mistake of becoming overconfident and saying, I've got this.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So now let me try just stopping at random at the donut store again. And boom, they reset the extinction curve, they simulate the variable ratio, intermittent reinforcement schedule, and they're bringing lights up and reignites the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So once you break out of prison, don't go back to see your friends. If you want to re -experience the food, do it by design, don't do it at random because you're feeling cocky. Okay, the last thing to remember about cravings, I lie, there might be two last things.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But the most important last thing to remember about cravings is that they're tied to specific food signals. So let's say I go through 30 days, even 60 days, and I'm just really not bothered. I don't even think about stopping at the donut store on the way back from work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I don't, I don't, I don't obsess about it during the day. It's just not really part of my life. It's where I wanted to be. I'm really happy. And then I go to my mom's house. I haven't seen her for a couple of months and she invites me over for breakfast.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And there's a big old plate of donuts like she always has when I go for breakfast at mom's house. And I've got cravings like I've never had before. I'm thinking, what's wrong? I must have failed. This is too hard.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I must have failed. But you didn't fail. You succeeded at extinguishing the donuts from the donut store sign. You didn't succeed at extinguishing your mom's house on Saturday mornings, you know, when, when you go to her place and you hadn't been there in a while.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So as a practical matter, when you really want to, when you have a food that's troubling you or craving that's troubling you, you want to think about all of the different stimuli that it's attached to and make a plan for it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if there are infrequent stimuli like going to your mom's house that it's attached to, then you want to write yourself reminders like actually plan out an email to arrive to yourself just before you go into mom's house and what the day that you're going to be there in the day after.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And maybe in that email, it will remind you to eat a little more healthy food before you go. It reminds you what your pig is going to say and what's wrong with what your pig is going to say, like just a little more hurt.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then you'll, you write out the refutation for that, the answer to why the pig is wrong about that. It'll remind you to drink more water, it'll remind you to get a little more sleep. And then you can extinguish those exposures as well.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Don't get thrown if the craving comes back in response to another stimuli. Just understand it's a little bit like a game of whack -a -mole.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
These things are going to pop up because there are other stimuli that you won't have experienced. But if you keep whacking them down and keep going through the extension curves for them, you get to the point that they just don't bother you at all anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Your pig will say it's going to go on forever. As a practical matter, usually about 80% of cravings for a given substance is related to one or two daily food signals, and then the remaining 20% are with these infrequent signals that come over the course of time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That is, I think, the answer to your question.

Melanie Avalon:
Super amazing. Some quick follow -up questions. So that extinction curve timeline that you just went through, is it a set amount of time regardless of what the person is trying to tackle, or is it longer for some, shorter for others?

Melanie Avalon:
I know you talk about the role of the counterintuitive idea that it takes longer for cravings that we were more intermittently dealing with, compared to every day. So is there like a general amount of time that it takes, or is it random?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a number of exposures, not a specific amount of time. Most cravings are daily habits, and those can usually be extinguished in about 30 days, 30 exposures. If it's something you do every week, let's say you're playing poker every Saturday and you're eating pretzels every Saturday, that's gonna take longer.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That could take 30 weeks to get through. And so you're gonna need a little more support to do that. And so that's, so you'll set up emails and friends to call you and things for 30 weeks. So you can really get through that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So yeah, it's, I mean, and it also varies depending upon how long the craving was reinforced in the first place and how strong it is, but varies depending upon how pleasurable the experience was for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So these are principles, not hard and fast rules, but generally spanking for a daily habit, somewhere in the first four to 10 days, you're gonna have that extinction burst, which is the hardest part to get through.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then you're gonna have very strong relief right around the corner. And the only way out is through. You should be excited when you have the craving because the only way to kill a craving is to have a craving and not reinforce it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, and once you understand this, you kind of prioritize your extinction curve and get at it, man. There's no use dilly -dallying around. You can make this happen.

Melanie Avalon:
Nice. And if you do indulge, let's say you're at like day 29, does it reset to the very beginning or?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It kind of does. Yes. I mean, people have had the experience, so they'll find it a little easier to get through, but please don't shoot the messenger. Don't reset it at day 29, please. Please don't do that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, another question. You mentioned in the book and you mentioned it here as well, that cravings are never extinguished, they just go dormant. If you had a craving and you successfully went through the curve and now it's dormant and it's in the past, is there the possibility of having it again and not enjoying it as much for whatever reason and rewriting how your brain interprets that food item?

Melanie Avalon:
And the reason I'm asking, I'll just elaborate really quickly, is because when Jin used to host this show with me, we would often talk about Fun Fetty Cake because like I said, that's my thing. She would swear up and down that my food buds had changed and if I were to try it now, I would not like it.

Melanie Avalon:
And she said that she had tried things like that now and she didn't like them, like things she used to crave, that she no longer crave them and she could eat them now. I was like, nope, that's not me.

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, I know if I have it again, it will taste amazing. And yeah, and it did. I actually tried some gluten -free Fun Fetty Cake and it was like the most amazing thing I've ever tasted. I was like, okay, we're not going down this rabbit hole at all, but I feel like I did have something similar where I don't know the context of, it's really vague in my memory, but I feel like I had an experience where I did rehab something and I just didn't like it as much now and that actually helped me want it less.

Melanie Avalon:
So is there that possibility of retrying something from the past and actually having that help you not want it more or is it like once it's a craving, keep it in the past?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
There is that possibility. First of all, there is the possibility of going through the extinction curve. You know, like a lot of people will go through a 90 day period where they have no sugar, flour or alcohol.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But that's one of the best resets you could do if you're really struggling. Go through 90 days with no sugar, flour or alcohol and then look at the difference in how you're thinking and what rules you want to set and how you want to eat at the end of that versus the beginning.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a very freeing thing to do. And I've seen a lot of people do that and then say, I think that I will allow sugar once a week at a restaurant for one serving of dessert or something like that. A lot of times that's possible.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm not guaranteeing it. It's at your own risk. A lot of times that is possible, especially when people really study this stuff hard. So they're not part of what allows the habit automation loop to take hold is this idea of powerlessness or that it's a disease or if there's something wrong with you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And when you get rid of those ideas and you really understand what's going on, it's often possible to moderate something that you couldn't moderate before because you say, all that's happening is my brain's really excited.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm just, I really, really like this. That doesn't mean I have to do it. I can just extinguish it again. So I have seen people come up with conditional rules to bind their pleasures to certain contexts after needing to not have them at all for a long time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I feel like it's safer in most cases if you decided you didn't, you really couldn't have it. It's probably safer not to have it. But let's go to the specific question you're asking. Could you have a toxic experience with a previously pleasurable substance?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The answer to that is yes, because of the phenomenon of down regulation and up regulation. So your being is designed to avoid overloading your brain with stimulation if that stimulation is not relevant to the acquisition of what it wants.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
When I used to sleep underneath the subway, when I went to graduate school, my parents got me an apartment with these crazy pediatrics students that slept just about underneath the subway. And I could not understand how anybody slept.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But three weeks later, I didn't even hear the subway and I slept like a baby. And the reason for that is that my brain down regulated or habituated to the noise. It decided that stimuli was not relevant anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Let's say you really like super salty things that your desire for super salty things probably didn't occur. I'm sorry, let me back up for a second. The same process would happen if you would eat something salty every day.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Like if you eat something a little bit salty, it would be interesting then you put a little more salt on it, a little more salt on it. Because in order to get the same pleasure response from the salt, you need a little more, a little more, a little more because your brain is down regulating in the same way that it down regulated that's response to the subway.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Because it's not going to respond to salt in the way that it normally does. Okay, so now you get to the point that you're eating these nacho chips that have two grams of salt in them in a bag and you hardly even taste the salt.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It just tastes it tastes good to you, but not as good as the first time you had it maybe. And you need more and more salt to make it taste good. So you're eating super, super salty nacho chips, then you decide to extinguish that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you then go back 90 days later and you have one of those super salty nacho chips, it's going to taste too salty to you because over the course of that 90 days, your brain would have up regulated, it would have reestablished the responsiveness.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Just like if I went out to the country for a couple of months and then I went back and slept under the subway, I wouldn't be able to sleep again because my brain would have up regulated again. So provided that you went back and had the same level of intensity of stimulation, you would have a toxic experience and you wouldn't want that thing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I've experienced that with salty stuff. I stopped having salty soup. And then one day I decided I just give it a shot and I couldn't imagine how I ever got it in my body. So it can, but it depends upon a number of things.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that totally makes sense. I've definitely experienced that with salt as well. Salt's one where it's like very, at least for me, very telling, like, because I've gone through low carb keto periods where I was eating much higher salt and then cutting out the salt and then having it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm like, whoa, I don't have, how in the world was I eating this? The sweet thing though, I don't know that Fun Fetti cake. It's always, it's always gonna call to me. Well, something I also love in the book.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, I will just prefer listeners to the book because there's so much we didn't even remotely touch on. So, you know, you talk about, like I said, the specific squeals and how to refute them. And those are the ones where I think people will really resonate and be like, okay, I've literally heard that exact phrase in my head.

Melanie Avalon:
And here's how you can, you know, combat it. You talk about how to, how you can use all of this to actually create healthy habits that you want. So kind of like hacking the, you know, the variety and the randomness and everything to make yourself crave healthy foods.

Melanie Avalon:
You really read the book. Oh yes, oh yes. Most definitely, I loved it. It was so great. So much, like I said, so much science. I loved all the updates. You have your ritual mantra, your 100% optional tool people can use that they can possibly integrate if it resonates with them.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's completely free. Get it now, freecravingsbook.com. Completely free.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Press the big blue button.

Melanie Avalon:
press the big blue button. Is there anything you want to talk about specifically before we go from the book for listeners?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
just because we went into depth so much about the science of cravings that it's how to say one more thing about it. It's helpful to understand that it was so important to be able to locate food sources, that the brain has the capacity to form a new craving, a new automation loop, from one particularly unexpected, rich, and delicious experience.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just gonna ask that. I'm glad you're talking about this. Yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I had a friend in my 30s, his name was Hank, and once we went out to a diner and he took a bite of a sandwich, I think it was. And he said, Oh, Glenn, I can't eat this. This is too good. And Glenn, if it's too good, then it's no good.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That that was his understanding of how to avoid getting a craving. If he had something that was too delicious and unexpected, he knew his brain was going to start making him want to go to that diner all the time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so he decided right away that he wasn't going to do that. So if you find yourself having an unexpectedly delicious experience that you don't want, like I don't want to take anything away from you that you do want.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But if you feel like it's going to be trouble, then make a rule for it right away. Don't don't let it take hold. On the other hand, you can use that phenomenon to crave the things that you want to crave.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So if you research a half dozen or a dozen recipes that are entirely on your plan, like one of my favorite things is this vegan, flowerless, you know, cheeseless lasagna. I got it from Dr. Furman. And you have like a half a dozen or a dozen of those things, and you rotate them through your diet.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So you don't have them every day, or even every month, you allow, you know, allow yourself to wait for them. Then you're constantly having these unexpected, delicious experiences, and your mind will keep craving that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And it is an awful lot for the satisfaction on your plan. And that's one of the ways you can hack your brain to want the things you wanted to want to not want the things that you don't want it to want.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I love it so much. So if somebody had that delicious experience where they're like, oh no, this could be a problem, what sort of rule would they create around that?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, let's say it was a particular sandwich. It could be very particular. I feel like I will only ever have a half of this particular sandwich at such and such restaurant with my spouse on the weekends, right?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Or maybe it's just so strong, they feel like they can't deal with it at all. And so they'll say, I won't ever do that. It's up to you and it's a matter of judgment. And I have to interview people about their experience with it to really know what to tell them about that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I err towards conditional rules where you don't have to give things up entirely because people like more freedom than less, something like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I was going to say intuitively, I think the reason I really loved the binding concept is it's something I've historically done, like I would, without even realizing it, I would, especially when I was still fine tuning my diet and what I eat, I would say I could only have certain things on like a holiday and only on a holiday and not if it wasn't a holiday.

Melanie Avalon:
And then interestingly, the farther I got in life and time, then I didn't even want those things on the holiday. It's like the longer I went.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
A very common condition or rule people will make is, you know, I can have one serving at dinner, of any dinner I want, a one serving of dessert, of any dessert that I want on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I know I know a lot of people that do that. It works out well.

Melanie Avalon:
I also like just to throw it out there. I like your ambiguity asset test. So basically, because people might make their rules a little bit too vague and then, you know, what does that really mean? And so what is your test?

Melanie Avalon:
If how many people followed you around?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You want your rules to be operationally defined so that 10 people following you around for a month would know whether you followed it or not. So you can't say, I'm going to avoid chocolate 90% of the time because probably by the end of the month people would be arguing about whether you did or you didn't.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Right? Or you especially you can't say I'm just going to avoid chocolate or I'll try not to eat chocolate. But you could say I'm only ever going to have chocolate on the last three days of the calendar month.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And that would accomplish the same thing. But it's very, very specific so that there's no ambiguity for the pig to barrel through.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. Clear and specific.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
because you want it to function as a trip wire so you know the moment the pyrrhoxylmbran is awake.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny because one of my good friends who is a major fan of your work, she would experience something that you would talk about in your book that I never personally experienced, but she would talk about like getting into overeating and not even realizing what led to it.

Melanie Avalon:
Like for me, whenever I would have issues with overeating, I was very much aware going in like from the first bite, I was like, Oh no. But for her, she would say that she would just realize that she was, she would just like find herself overeating.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, a lot of people say that it's just so interesting to see how, you know, how different things manifest in different people's minds. And you address all of it with your books and with your clients.

Melanie Avalon:
So yes, free cravings book .com. I cannot recommend it enough. And friends, Glenn not only is he making this incredible work accessible to so many people and changing thousands of lives, but he's also one of my dearest friends.

Melanie Avalon:
And I genuinely mean this. Like, Glenn, you're just such a treasure and one of the most kind, empathetic, savvy, knowledgeable, funny, awesome, incredible human beings that I know. And I'm so grateful that we're friends and thank you for what you're doing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Could you tell my dad that please? Sure. Thank you, Melanie. That's really sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I have enjoyed this so, so much. We'll have to have you back on the show. Maybe we can have you on the show in the future for a Q &A if you're open to it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Absolutely, anytime. You tell me when.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I think listeners would love that. So we'll have to do that. Okay, so again, the show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode356. There will be a full transcript there as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
And I will see everybody next week and have a good rest of your day, Glenn. Thank you, dear. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intramission Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Feb 04

Episode 355: Keto Cake, Bingeing, Bioimpedance Analysis, Smart Scales, DEXA Scans, Body Composition, Deuterated Creatine, NMN, NR, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Luca’s Keto Birthday Cake

Welcome to Episode 355 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. *NEW* LMNT Chocolate Medley is available! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: *NEW* LMNT Chocolate Medley is available! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

Never Binge Again(tm): How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice!

Listener Q&A: Lori - Could you take a deep dive in the data that can be gained by smart scales ?

Episode 352: Special Guest: Dr. Valter Longo, Fasting Mimicking, Nutritional Science, Cellular Rejuvenation, Reproduction & Lifespan, Calorie Restriction, Autophagy And More!

Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition: Observational Study

Listener Q&A: Leslie - Does NMN break your fast?

Ion Layer: Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 355 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 355 of the Intramurton Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi everyone. Vanessa, I have two things I wanna talk to you about. Okay. One is a story about pharmacies and compounding pharmacies and taking agency with your health.

Melanie Avalon:
And the other one is about birthdays. Which one should we do?

Vanessa Spina:
birthdays.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, because my birthday is approaching. By the time this comes out, it will be way in the past. But I'm super curious when you have like your birthday or you're celebrating anything in general. And we might have talked about this on the show before.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't think we have. Do you eat something celebratory that you wouldn't normally eat? Cause food is like such a big part of this show.

Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely do, but these days I don't go that crazy for me. Like if I have it all my way, Pete and I will go to one of our favorite restaurants that's like, you know, elevated dining and I'll have an amazing steak.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's like what I want usually. So there's a couple places that in the city that we really love and that's usually what we do for my birthday. And one is like a French bistro and they have this incredible aged steaks that are absolutely amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
There's another one that's like right on the river and it's like super romantic and beautiful. And it's yeah, like we will splurge a little bit on those nights. But the food that I want is usually like an amazing steak.

Vanessa Spina:
Even though we have amazing steak at home too, it's just, you know, restaurants will have like amazing sauces with it and stuff like that. But I don't really do anything like sweet. Like I don't really get excited about anything like that.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh my goodness. I have so much.

Melanie Avalon:
many thoughts. Okay, one, elevated dining. That is such an interesting phrase. I've never heard it called that before.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know where that came from. Oh, you just made that up. Yeah, I was just like, it's an elevated dining store. I was like, what is it? White tablecloth. Like fine dining? Yeah, but like we'll go to a place that has like, yeah, fine dining and, you know, they'll have like an amazing tenderline with like a hollandaise sauce or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's my treat. And similar with like the other place that we like to go. Or they'll have like an amazing truffle sauce or something like that. That's like really like a big indulgence, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is a complete tangent. I was just thinking, I'm so sorry. I was just thinking about you and Prague and these restaurants and how I want to go with you. Is Taylor Swift going on the Ares tour to Prague?

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know, but that would be amazing. Okay, because listen, if I go to Austin to record with Dave and then London for Thanksgiving and I get these travel skills, and if I maintain these travel skills, maybe I'll come to Prague.

Melanie Avalon:
If Taylor is going to Prague,

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that would be incredible. So is she doing an international tour now? Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. I was actually just talking last night with Rebecca Rudish, who I've had on the show, the founder of Yummers, who side note plug. I adore Yummers. If listeners want delicious pet food toppers for their dogs and cats, cannot recommend it enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Listeners can get 20% off, which is awesome at yummerspets.com/IFpodcast with the coupon code IFPodcast. I don't know if this will still be running, but they did have a special as well to get free dog food.

Melanie Avalon:
Side note, she's a dear friend of mine. My birthday is approaching. I just said that, which is why I'm talking about the birthdays, but we were talking about stuff to do and she was like, we should go see Taylor somewhere internationally.

Melanie Avalon:
So maybe I'll just like blend this all together into some magical adventure. Okay. And we're back. So Prague stakes.

Vanessa Spina:
What's your indulgence? Birthday.

Melanie Avalon:
I just love the food that I normally eat, but I love going, like you said, I love going to a really nice restaurant. I'm such a, I love like fine dining restaurant experiences or like thematic restaurants.

Melanie Avalon:
I just, I'm all about it. I love it. So kind of similar to you. I love going and I love getting like a multi course entree with multiple meat manifestations, meat and fish.

Vanessa Spina:
That's the most exciting part. I'm like, I don't really care about the dessert, to be honest. Like, I just want.

Melanie Avalon:
all the meats, bonus points, if you can get a different type of meat in multiple courses, like major bonus points. So if I can get like a shrimp cocktail, carpaccio, sashimi, a steak, and then maybe get one of the appetizers that I didn't have for dessert.

Melanie Avalon:
And I talk about this all the time, but I literally have gotten entrees as my dessert, which side note, Barry Conrad, who I've also, who we've also had on this show, who lives in Australia, we were talking, did you know that?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wait, actually, maybe in Prague, what is an entre? Oh, but it's a different link.

Vanessa Spina:
Like there's appetizer and then entree is the main meal. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's the way it is in the US. Apparently in Australia and other places, the entree is the appetizer.

Vanessa Spina:
I know I've heard this before and it's, that's what it means in French. You know, it's like the first dish, but yeah, I find it really confusing. Entree to me is like the main dish. But yeah, I also love like a big treat.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I'm the same if I get like a surf and turf. So like steak with like a side of shrimp or I'll order, you know, a lot of steak houses, they'll have like sides and extras and things. We're definitely on the same page with that.

Vanessa Spina:
It's fun to get dressed up, you know, get a little glam on and, you know, go to your favorite restaurant. That's actually what we did for my most recent birthday. We went to our favorite restaurant on the water and I had like the best ever.

Vanessa Spina:
I had a tartare for api with like a truffle mousse and then a tenderloin with like an amazing hollandaise and, you know, had some, some greens with it or something. And it was, it was incredible. I was just so satisfied.

Vanessa Spina:
Sometimes I'll get like a cheese, like a cheese plate or something like that. If I really want dessert, but most of the time I'm fine. And then if I, we get home and I still like want something, I'll make like some kind of yogurt, something like that.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm just happy with that.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so great. I'm normally torn between fish and steak, so that's why I really like getting two entrees.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and also if like sometimes you can get to and like share it's fun too. But yeah, I'm, I'm all about it. The sake and the seafood too. It's so.

Melanie Avalon:
good. I used to, like, because I do, it just speaks to me like birthday cake. It really does. Like that, it's just something, it's overwhelmingly lights up my dopamine centers. Like the concept of, you know, unless there's no this like fun, fatty cake or birthday cake.

Melanie Avalon:
So I used to get keto versions online and sort of make like these sugar -free versions, which honestly taste amazing to me and taste very similar because I haven't had real sugar in eons. But it's just too much of a slippery slope for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I think some people are moderationists and some people are like extremists and I'm an extremist and I would just rather not have that than have a little bit.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, same. I find it is a little bit different now. So when I make Luca's birthday cake, I make it with all the sugar -free icing and the sugar -free sprinkles and all that. And I'll have a piece. And usually when it's, I know it's like, we still have it.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm aware of it. I'm aware that there's cake in the fridge. Not a feeling I normally have. And then, you know, I'll usually like, just basically, I'll have like a piece maybe the next day and then I'll just like cut it off because I don't want to like keep having it every night.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like it should be that for that special occasion. And it's a same. I noticed like when I, we were in the U .S. when I was pregnant with Luca, I tried out some of those keto ice creams because I'd never tried them.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was like aware that they were in the fridge. Like when I walked by the kitchen, like it was like, they were like, hello, like where are we in there? And I was like, why am I aware of this? Like I don't have that feeling normally.

Vanessa Spina:
And I way prefer to just not like, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to waste mental energy thinking about something or being like, oh, I'm going to have that later. Like I just don't like that feeling.

Vanessa Spina:
I prefer to just not have it at all. And just like enjoy a tea after dinner or something like that that just works for me now. And yeah, I'm an obscener for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
I've read about that. It's a very real psychological thing. So like if your brain, I totally read about it. So if your brain knows the potential of this thing that it wants is there, it doesn't forget.

Melanie Avalon:
It like keeps it very present until it's no longer an option. It talks to you like, hello, I mean, when you're so that's why it can be so important, especially if people are starting like intermittent fasting, for example, and they think they're going to be tempted by certain things to get it out of the house.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it doesn't matter if it's like closed and in the pantry, like it needs to not be accessible because it's not about you and your willpower so much as what I just said that your brain, as long as it's there, your brain's going to be wanting it.

Melanie Avalon:
And then once it's gone, it won't.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, and it's gonna drain your willpower. I remember reading about that too with like, if you work in an office and someone has like a bowl of M &Ms or whatever your favorite, for me it would be like hard candy.

Vanessa Spina:
If someone had like a bowl of hard candy or something at the front, like that you suck on, like do you remember like nerds or rents or things like that? Like I love those like the fruit shaped ones. If someone had a bowl of that or if I had, what was your favorite runt?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love the red ones and the banana. The banana was magical. And nerds, I loved also like, if I had to walk by a bowl of that, like an open accessible bowl of that every day, it would drain so much of my willpower.

Vanessa Spina:
But like I haven't thought about rents in like five years, you know, because like they're just not in my environment. Like, and it's such a good point you bring up, like just having it there, it's draining and it does take up your willpower and it does take up mental energy that you could use for more productive things, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
Laffy taffy. Did you ever have Laffy taffy? I remember it though. So good. They had this version called tanky taffy. And it was like the, it was like a massive version of the Laffy taffy, but they had this watermelon one with like watermelon seeds.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, so good. Comment though about the fasting. So I think a way that fasting is sort of a hack on this. I still think get the stuff out of the house. What's so amazing with willpower and fasting is that when you, you get this window and then you no longer have this debate with yourself about to eat or not to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
Cause like, if you're not doing intermittent fasting and you're dieting, it's like, do I eat this? Do I not eat this? Do I eat some more? Do I not eat some more? Like it's like that constantly, which is exhausting.

Melanie Avalon:
But with fasting, it's like, okay, not my window. So then you don't have to like think about

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, I call it the noise. Like it's just like sort of in the background noise or this like distraction that's there. And when you cut it out, it's like a laser. Like you can just focus so much more on what you want to focus on and just take that out of the equation.

Vanessa Spina:
And I think that's probably the biggest thing for me with intermittent fasting is just having that having that framework that it just like, I don't know. I think maybe some people thrive on it more than others.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, some people, if you're not an obscener, if you're a moderator, then I wonder it would be really interesting to see if obsceners gravitate more to intermittent fasting, I would bet that they do.

Vanessa Spina:
Whereas moderators, you know, don't gravitate as much to this kind of lifestyle. That's so yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I bet. And also a bit of encouragement. I think a lot of people will use the clear out the kitchen thing as like the, oh, this is the last time to like eat all the things. I think it can be a spiral where people think they need to like get rid of all the things and eat all of the things.

Melanie Avalon:
There's like this idea, especially like, and I think we will have recently had Glenn Livingston on the, oh, so next episode, perfect timing. Next episode should be with Glenn Livingston. He wrote the book, Never Binge Again, which it's not just about binging.

Melanie Avalon:
It's really about anybody who's struggling with what he calls like the inner pig, which is like this voice that like wants the things. He's amazing for dealing with the psychology of dealing with your food cravings and choices and such.

Melanie Avalon:
But one of the things he does talk about is like all the excuses that this, this pig voice in your head will make about eating and like how one of them is like, oh, this is like the last time, you know, like I'll just eat all these and this will be like the last time when really it's, it's not, that's just like a lie.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it just like, it just lies to you, this voice. So don't listen to it. His solution is basically don't argue. So like when you have this voice in your head that's like, you know, wanting you to, to break your diet rules that you came up with.

Melanie Avalon:
And I don't want to make this sound like overly restrictive or, or disordered or anything like that. But, but basically you have a healthy plan that you've set out to do a diet, fasting, whatever it may be.

Melanie Avalon:
And if you're struggling with this voice in your head that is trying to get you to not engage in that pattern that you believe will be healthy for you and that you would like to do, his solution is you don't argue with it.

Melanie Avalon:
You don't debate with it. You just like don't listen to it. It sounds really simple, but it can be life changing. Basically like you, you isolate it as like the pig voice and you just don't listen to it.

Melanie Avalon:
So check out next week's episode. I think it'd be very helpful for people. Okay. Yes. Next time we talk, I will tell you my crazy story about the compounding pharmacy. Okay. Sounds good. It's crazy. People have you just as a teaser, how do I say this?

Melanie Avalon:
Like, how do I say this? Have you ever had an experience where you are smart and intelligent and have information and know what you're doing and you're just being completely talked down to by somebody who believes they're in a power of position?

Melanie Avalon:
This happened to me with a compounding pharmacy and it's a crazy story. So teaser. Okay. Anything from you before we jump in the questions?

Vanessa Spina:
Can I share something I'm really excited about? Oh yes, please do. It has to do with red light therapy and something new that I'm launching, but I just, I'm so, I'm just buzzing about it because I've been working on it all week.

Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, I use the red light therapy panels. I'm starting to embrace the cold more because it helps activate more brown fat, generate more brown fat. And I also, I'm using my red light therapy panels more these days because it's getting colder outside and I'm not outside all day.

Vanessa Spina:
Before I was getting red light at sunrise and all throughout the day and then in the evening, I'm not anymore because the seasons are changing. So, I brought out all my red light therapy panels. They're all in the bathroom and around the house because my husband and I both use them.

Vanessa Spina:
But one thing that I was noticing is I wasn't doing my face protocol or my face treatment as much and it's because I'm usually with Luca and that's my two year old toddler. And he, you know, he doesn't want me to be like holding this red light therapy panel in front of my face.

Vanessa Spina:
He wants me to play with him and play with his choo choo train or make, you know, Play -Doh butterflies or whatever we're doing. So, I realized that I should use the red light therapy masks because I, a year ago, I customized a couple of them because I was gonna launch them as a product.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I just been so busy with other stuff that I kind of like left them on the shelf. So, I started, you know, I pulled them out, I started wearing them like, this is amazing. I can get a full red light therapy session on my face while I'm still playing with Luca.

Vanessa Spina:
Like he doesn't care that I have a mask on and he actually likes it. He likes like playing with the remote and changing the colors on me. But I can get a full session in and I have my hands free. And, you know what?

Vanessa Spina:
When usually you're doing a face treatment, your eyes are closed because you're not gonna like stare into these powerful lights unless you're specifically doing that for like an eye treatment. Usually your eyes are closed and you can't really do much, right?

Vanessa Spina:
But with the mask, like you've got your hands free, you can see things, you can like watch things, you can read things, you can just interact normally. So, it's like the ultimate multitasking. So, then I posted about it as a kind of a joke for Halloween and I was like, this is my Halloween mask.

Vanessa Spina:
And so many people in my community and like listeners of the podcast were like, this is amazing, I want one, like can I order one? Just like, okay, let's do this. So, I've been having so much fun creating the new mask.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I've created the new Tonelux Crystal red light therapy mask and it is amazing and it's so easy to use. You just like put it on, strap it on your face and then you can set the program on the remote to, there's all kinds of different programs, but set it on and just relax.

Vanessa Spina:
Like you can, if you don't have a toddler that you're playing with, you can lay in bed and relax. You can read a book, you know, you can watch a show, you can listen to podcasts and, you know, it's just the ultimate multitasking.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I'm super excited about it and it's an amazing product and I've just been having so much fun doing like the box design, working on the box design, the manual and customizing like the bag, there's like a travel bag with it that goes with it and all the stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I just been buzzing because as we've talked about so many times before, like this is the most fun part of like creating products is like actually creating the designs and the customization and also just because so many people are excited about the masks, I think they'll be a really fun like Christmas gift and just something awesome that people can use and there's just so much interest in the masks, it's really, really exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
So, that's my latest update.

Melanie Avalon:
A while ago, the closest thing I've been using to this was Saluma. Do you know that brand? I don't know. They make a, it's basically like a dome and when you're laying down, you set it over your head so you can't be moving around with it like this.

Melanie Avalon:
I would go in the infrared sauna and I would lay down and I would put it over my head and it would do red light and it also had near infrared and blue light as well for acne, which you said, you changed the colors on it.

Melanie Avalon:
So is it red light and other lights as well on yours? Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's got four wavelengths in it, and it has these programs. So you can have it go between the main light. So it's got a 630 nanometer red light. It's got a 590 nanometer. It's actually orange light, but it's in the red light family.

Vanessa Spina:
And then it has two 830 and 850 nanometer for near infrared. And so it has these programs where it'll do like five minutes of each, or you can just create your own program or set it to how you want. Or you could just have it be on red light the whole time or in a combination and you can set the time and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, those are the main wavelengths in it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I've been, like I said, I was using that sluma wine and I've been wanting to get something like that for when I was laying down in the sauna. But the issue with that, what I liked about it was it wasn't actually touching your skin.

Melanie Avalon:
So, does this actually touch your skin or does it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it goes on your face. Like it goes, it's like any other mask, but it's made of silicone, so it's quite comfortable. Oh, cool.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that you can see and you can breathe through it and looking at the pictures and see through it. This is so cool.

Vanessa Spina:
that. I was testing another one, which was like, they call it the Iron Man mask, and it's a full, like it's gold, and it's a full mask. And at first I thought that I was going to like that one more. But when I had it on, I just felt like I couldn't breathe.

Vanessa Spina:
I just didn't feel good. Whereas this one, the silicone one is like so light and easy to wear that, you know, you can put it on and you can still like breathe normally, you can still see normally, you know, and it's got to be comfortable if you're going to, you know, do it.

Vanessa Spina:
And you only have to do it three, four times a week, like 10 minutes, or you can do longer ones if you want like 15 to 25. But I'm just so excited that I can get back on track with my red light therapy sessions, because it's so amazing for boosting collagen and elastin factors and just improving, you know, overall skin health.

Vanessa Spina:
And I just like had kind of stopped because it was too hard, you know, to do it with Luke and then for a while I would like wait until he would go to bed and then I would do it like at night and that's not optimal either.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's, it's just, you know, great to have your hands free and your eyes free and still be able to do other things.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so cool. So how does it attach behind it?

Vanessa Spina:
to you? It's got actually three straps. So each strap is like on each side, and then it attaches in the back. And then there's another one on the top, which goes and attaches to those two. So it's quite secure.

Vanessa Spina:
And yeah, it's just like Velcro straps. And you designed this? Yeah, I mean, the like the, the one that hit the one that is on my Instagram that I think you're looking at is actually not the one that we are doing, but it's a newer model.

Vanessa Spina:
That was like an older model that I had that I was just like testing out. And then I was like, okay, I want to go with this. But it's a newer model that features the infrared as well, which is what I was kind of waiting for.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, really, I'm so excited about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Is it on the website now?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, yeah, if you go to ketogenic girl, I just was setting that up today. Yeah. And we're still working on the design as of today. I might do a fuller like print on the face and everything. This is so.

Melanie Avalon:
Cool. Yeah, this would be an amazing gift for people. People don't talk about the orange light.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's interesting. So my SAFAR panel, which has four wavelengths of light also, one of the wavelengths is also orange, and it has some other benefits, like for the skin. I think it complements the red.

Vanessa Spina:
And some of the masks that they have, they have every wavelength. They've got all the colors, because apparently they do different things. But not all of them are things, I think, that people would be interested in.

Vanessa Spina:
Some of them are skin whitening. I'm like, it's not something that I'm interested in. What light does that? I think it's cyan.

Melanie Avalon:
How interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so all the wavelengths have different properties to them. But red light therapy obviously has all the really well -documented benefits. So I don't think there's as much research behind the other ones.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, there are some masks you can get that have all kinds of different colors in them.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, the one I was using did the red near and front and then the blue for the acne, which I could see that being the blue being really helpful for people if they have acne.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, that's a sign, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, well, super cool. So what's the link for people to get this? Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh yeah, they can check it out at ketogenicirl.com if they just navigate to the website and then look up the Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy. There's basically just two things on the website. That's the, you know, the tone, breath ketone meters and the tone red light therapy.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's right under there if you want to check it out there.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Yeah, that would make a great gift for people. Although by the time this comes out, it will be past the holidays, but always giving gifts to people. So, do you, that's a question. Do you, for like Christmas and things like that, do you get presents throughout the year or do you wait until right before?

Vanessa Spina:
Christmas shopping, I usually do, like I probably should start now, but I usually do it around Christmas time. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm pretty intense. I'm like looking all year. I'm like, gift giving is my love language, so I'm really intense about it. And I got a fact check this. My mom, I think, said this year that we're quote, not doing presents or something.

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, wait, what? I understand not wanting to feel the need to like have to spend a lot of money on people, but I really express love through giving gifts. So even if we're not doing gifts,

Vanessa Spina:
My brother is also gifts, his love language. Ever since we were a kid, he would get so excited about Christmas gifts and he still does. Like giving them? Giving them, receiving them, it's definitely his love language and it's really cute how excited he gets about it.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's like, you know, you have to get Matt something really thoughtful because it's his love language. You really want him to feel loved. So it's like, yeah, it's so cute.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, what's funny is it's my giving, but it's not my receiving. So, words of affirmation. Yeah. Lights me up. How about you? Do you know yours?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, some mine are words of affirmation and affection. Receiving or for both? I think giving is affection and then words of affirmation and receiving. Affection and physical touch, you mean? Yes, and receiving is words of affirmation and then physical touch.

Vanessa Spina:
That when my husband and I were dating, we realized we had really different ones. Oh, what are his? So we both have affection as a main one, but his number one way of showing love is acts of service.

Vanessa Spina:
And for me, it wasn't even on my radar. We had to learn each other's because obviously the first couple of years you're together, you're just on this dopamine high and everything is amazing and you feel loved and you shower each other with so much of everything, affection, words, all that stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
But it took me a long time to realize that he was doing things for me. He would carry my suitcase for me and that was his way of showing me. He's taking care of me, protecting me, loving me. But I didn't feel love through it for a long time and we had to learn each other's.

Vanessa Spina:
So I had to learn how to show him love through acts of service, which was not in my vocabulary. So it's really cool and you understand each other's and you kind of have to learn them. And he's had to learn to be more expressive with words of affirmation because it's not one on his radar.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, I have to kind of learn how you both are wired to make sure the other person feels loved all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's so important. It should be mandatory, because there are so many different quizzes out there and profiles and compatibility reports, but this one is pretty, I don't know, I think it would benefit everybody to know they're giving and receiving and their partner's giving and receiving.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, it's huge. It's really huge. You want to be, obviously it's great if you can be the same. And I'm glad my husband, I have one in common. But if we didn't know that about each other and we didn't learn each other's, then I don't think we would feel loved.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's just, it's critically important. I think a lot of people are aware now about love languages and they're so accurate. It's really amazing. So yours expressing is the gifts.

Melanie Avalon:
gifts, yeah, and then the receiving is words of affirmation.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think also women tend to have words more often and men tend to have acts of service more often. Like it's interesting to see, I see that pattern come up. Like and men are often more like action oriented and women are more words like when it comes to relationships but that's not saying that's everyone but I've just noticed that a lot.

Melanie Avalon:
I've noticed that as well. The other one I guess we're leaving out is time. Quality time. Yeah, so quality time, physical touch, words of affirmation, acts of service.

Vanessa Spina:
quality time I know and

Melanie Avalon:
Oh gifts and gifts. Is that all of them? I think there's five. Yeah. So gifts, time, access service, words of affirmation, and touch. Yeah. Which my like anti one, are any of those anti ones for you?

Melanie Avalon:
Because like I don't like

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not big on gifts. I don't like it. I always tell people, don't buy me anything, just write me something. But, you know, of course, if he gives me a gift, I'm like, okay, that's really nice. But I'm like the person who's like, let's not do gifts this year, guys.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so you're like my mom. And I'm like, wait a minute. When you said that?

Vanessa Spina:
I was laughing like every year. I'm like, I think my mom is actually maybe gifts too. So every year I'm like, can we not do gifts this year? My mom's like, no. And my brother also, right? So yeah, I don't usually win.

Vanessa Spina:
I've never won that we always end up doing gifts. And it's fine. Like once I get into it, I'm like, okay, this is fun. But I have moments where I get, I feel like it's being pushed on us. Like you have to give gifts to your loved ones or you don't love them.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I get this feeling like this commercialization of the holiday that I don't like. You know, I'd rather just give a gift because I saw something spontaneously and it made me think of that person. But you know, once you get into it, you're like, okay, it's fine.

Vanessa Spina:
And it definitely would feel really weird a Christmas morning to like not open anything or do anything. So the last few years I've asked for donations to things cause that like feels like a more, a less commercialized gift.

Melanie Avalon:
my experience of it is it's the way I show, the way I can show love because it's like, I have to really know the person. And then I like take the time to think about like, what would they like, what is like perfect for them?

Melanie Avalon:
So it's like me, it's kind of like, it's not an active service, but it's me like doing this thing to like show how much I like care about you and want to like give you this thing that represents that in a way.

Melanie Avalon:
I totally get it. It totally makes sense. So my mom though gives really good gifts. She goes, yeah, she finds stuff like, like so unique and special. I'm like, where did that come from? So yeah, she's sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, on that note, shall we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. Okay, doke, would you like to read the first question from Lori?

Vanessa Spina:
So, Lori on Facebook asks, could you take a deep dive into the data that can be gained by smart skills? I have a GE fit profile and I really like it. I'm wondering what the healthy target ranges are for visceral fat, bone mass, muscle mass, dot, dot, dot.

Vanessa Spina:
I have found the information fascinating. I am a 54 -year -old perimenopausal woman who practices one to two 36 to 42 hour fasts a week. I have a protein forward diet getting on average 100 grams a day.

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to learn more. I'm interested to see if my muscle mass and my fat -free mass changes much after the fasts and if they go down. Trends over time show things are really about the same and I think I am at a plateau.

Vanessa Spina:
I would like to get rid of some more fat in my thighs but my belly fat is mostly all gone. I fluctuate between mostly a four sometimes a five on visceral fat. My bone mass isn't budging staying at 6 .2 but I never had a DEXA scan.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not sure what the 6 .2 means or if it is low or good. I would love to hear what you can find out.

Melanie Avalon:
All right, Lori, thank you so much for your question. And this made me remember something that we did not discuss the episode before last, where we were talking about Valter Longo, which I will put a link to that episode in the show notes, which was ipodcast.com/episode352.

Melanie Avalon:
I asked him about the fasting mimicking diets effects on muscle loss. And he said in their studies, they found that basically there was a transient muscle loss from the five day fasting mimicking diet, but it all came back within a day, which was interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. It all came back within a day. So basically they were, I have to double check what he said exactly, but basically there wasn't any long term muscle loss from the fasting mimicking diet.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's super low calorie, low protein, five days. That there was transient, but he said it came back after the study. And then after they stopped. And so I asked him, how long did it take to come back?

Melanie Avalon:
And he said it was 24 hours. Do you have thoughts on that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So, yes, actually just released an episode on my podcast yesterday where we were talking about this because Dr. Bill Campbell, who's a physique scientist in Florida, he actually just changed his opinion on rapid fat loss protocols because he just did one in his lab and he found that what was happening is they weren't measuring total body water and that a lot of times these studies were showing that rapid fat loss protocols were actually causing a huge loss in lean body mass, but within two weeks it would come back and it was actually water and because our muscles store the most water in the body and that's one of the ways that you can actually game the system if you're doing like a dexa scan.

Vanessa Spina:
If you chug like a gallon of water before having a body, a dexa scan, it'll look like you added 10 or 20 pounds of muscle mass and it's because the dexa is just measuring the dry mass so water can conflate the lean body mass measurements.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. And I think so. I think that's huge. I'll have to, I want to fact check if he said it was 24 hours that it came back, but it was relatively short. And I would need to check, he made it sound like they were checking the difference between, you know, body composition.

Melanie Avalon:
But I would need to read the actual studies, which speaks into this whole question about the scale and measuring all of these different things because it can get so convoluted, like Vanessa was just saying, especially because of the role of water.

Melanie Avalon:
So the way these smart scales work, they use something called bioelectrical impedance analysis, or it's also called bioimpedance analysis, BIA. And basically what it does is you have your feet on the scale, it puts a current, a not harmful current.

Melanie Avalon:
But if you have a pacemaker, they do recommend that you, you know, speak to a doctor or it could interfere with pacemakers. The current runs up one leg through your torso, and then down the other leg.

Melanie Avalon:
And then because of the way this electrical current travels through water versus fatty tissue versus muscle, it guesstimates, it guesses based on the level of resistance, how much water, fat and muscle you have.

Melanie Avalon:
And there are just so many potential issues here. So basically I did find a study, it was 2021, it was called Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition, an Observational Study. It did not look at the scale that Laurie was using, the GE fit profile, but all these scales are essentially using the same technology.

Melanie Avalon:
And so they looked at three scales, they looked at the body partner by Tefal, the diet pack by Torellion and the body cardio by Nokia withings. They found that all of the scales, oh, and then they compare, basically they did the, they weighed the people and they compared it to Dexa scan, which I have comments on Dexa as well.

Melanie Avalon:
They found that all of them were accurate for weight. So just your basic weight were accurate. However, fat and muscle were not accurate, like at all. So fat mass was off, and this isn't kilograms, but was off by between 2 .2 to 3 .7 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
And the negative, so basically it said that they weighed, they had less fat than they did. So it was underestimated. And then for muscle mass, it was off by 4 .5 pounds. So in the positive, negative 6 .6 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
So negative saying they had less than they did and four pounds. So saying they had more than they did. So all over the place. And their conclusion was that this technology and smart skills is not accurate for determining muscle and fat, but the scales are probably accurate for weight, like just weight.

Melanie Avalon:
And so a lot of factors, and there are a lot of reasons for that. There's a lot of factors that can influence just the system. So your body setup, your feet, where your feet are on the scale, whether you're standing up straight or not, the current isn't even like measuring upper body.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's kind of extrapolating from there. It's just not, and her question says that it's measuring visceral fat. Specifically, I have no idea how it thinks it's figuring that out. Like that's something that I don't think even Dexa shows that.

Melanie Avalon:
You'd have to have an ultrasound. Yeah. So that, no, it's it, no. And then bone mass, again, I don't know how it would be determining that. And something that's interesting. So Dexa scan is what is used for bone mass.

Melanie Avalon:
But I talked with Gabrielle Lyon about using Dexa for muscle. She doesn't even think that it Dexa is super valid for measuring muscle mass. She recommends deuterated creatine.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, which you ingest, I guess, and then measure after.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. She says DEXA, I'm just quoting from the transcript that I had with her. She says, it's not a direct measure of skeletal muscle mass. It's an extrapolation. It's directly measuring body fat and it is looking at bone.

Melanie Avalon:
The rest is extrapolated. So if we're comparing this to the scale, for example, so scale is basically getting your weight and then the smart skills, getting your weight and then using this current to kind of guess at things based on a level of persistence.

Melanie Avalon:
But it's just not accurate, probably compared to DEXA, which is accurate for body fat. So it is actually giving you body fat. It is actually giving you bone. But then the muscle mass, it's extrapolating.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not actually measuring muscle mass. And that goes back to what Vanessa was saying, like the amount of water you have, your hydration levels can all affect that. So she says that the way of the future is deuterated creatine, which is actually tagging skeletal muscle, looking at the creatine, because creatine is found in skeletal muscle, and then that's going to be the way to really get an accurate picture of muscle.

Melanie Avalon:
So all of that to say, Lori, I wouldn't make any recommendations about the scale because you just can't know if it's accurate. I wouldn't look at it. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So my, I love everything that you shared about it. I am not a big fan of these kinds of scales because I just don't think the technology is there yet. I think they can be used for trends. And some people, like I know, physique competitors will use them to assess their body fat at home and they'll look at the trends.

Vanessa Spina:
But I do think, as you said, they could be accurate for weight. In terms of body composition, I'm a big fan of Dexabody scans. They are the gold standard of what we have now. And I know what we were talking about with the D3 creatine.

Vanessa Spina:
It's coming. It's just not there yet. And I would be interested to try it for sure myself and, you know, potentially recommend it. If it's, if it's something that turns out great. I was actually talking to Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Bill Campbell about this yesterday or on the episode that came out yesterday because, you know, I was asking him about these different methodologies. So they have a physique lab and mostly what they study is his fat loss.

Vanessa Spina:
And so they use ultrasound often for that, even, which is like they have one in their lab, which is amazing. He loves Dexa. Like he thinks it's fantastic. And I agree with him. I know it can be manipulated, but for the most part, I do think it gives us the best picture out of the options that we currently have.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm sure better options are coming, but I found it to be very accurate when I myself go for scans, when I recommend scans to other people. And it can even show you, you know, where your fat is, you know, where you carry it, you know, exactly how much you have in different parts of your body.

Vanessa Spina:
You can learn exactly how much pounds of fat, fat mass you have on your body. You can also, you know, learn your resting metabolic rate from it and your bone density. So I have no idea how a smart scale is purporting to be able to analyze bone density or visceral fat.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's just not possible. So I wouldn't put much weight on that at all. I would just use it for trends, possibly with your body fat. You could look at, you know, what the trends are. Does it look like it's going up or going down?

Vanessa Spina:
And I do think the technology is coming. I've seen some different models of this on the at home smart scales where they basically would have these like wands that surround you and scan your body. You know, so that is like more like a dexter, right?

Vanessa Spina:
That that makes sense to me that it could give you accurate information in your home. But in terms of like even bioimpedance, air displacement, the pod pods, I'm not as much a big fan of those. But Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Campbell says, if you're using one method, whatever it is, just make sure you control the conditions and use the same method when you're doing the before and afters. So yeah, I unfortunately, I just don't think that any at home skills right now have the technology that that'll really give you the accuracy.

Melanie Avalon:
And even with the DEXA, I think it can be important to make sure that you go in in the same sort of conditions when you get it, because the water can influence that a little bit as well, like with the muscles specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And a nice thing about DEXA as well is it's pretty low on the EMF, or sorry, on the radiation exposure compared to other potential things. So I think that information gained from it is very valuable.

Melanie Avalon:
That's great. No, yeah. So, I mean, it's not minimal. I mean, it's not, you know, non -existent, but it is relatively low. Shall we answer one more question? Yes, I would love to. All right. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
So we have a question from Leslie, also from Facebook about does NMN break your fast? And I have a lot of thoughts on this, but Vanessa, have you played around with NMN?

Vanessa Spina:
So I have some in my fridge and I haven't actually taken it yet, probably partly because I'm pregnant, but also because it's really hard to know how effective NMN is, you know, because we'll never really have the data in humans, you know, to see whether or not it really does affect our longevity.

Vanessa Spina:
But I do have some, but I do not believe it breaks so fast. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So if it's pure NMN, it shouldn't break the fast. I'll be curious how it goes in the future, because it's in a gray zone right now with the FDA in the US as of this recording. I was actually going to release an NMN and then it became a whole thing, which is, and I think the reasoning behind it is because pharmaceutical companies potentially want to, you know, patent it, which I will not go in that soapbox.

Melanie Avalon:
But in any case, no, it should not break your fast. I do take a pure powder form of it at present. I will say that, so NMN, just briefly, it's a precursor, stands for nicotinamide mononucleotide. It's a precursor to NAD, which is a master coenzyme in our body involved in all of our metabolic processes.

Melanie Avalon:
So important for health and it gets depleted with things like aging and stress and sickness and boosting your NAD levels can be really good for health and longevity. And since NMN is a precursor to NAD, that's why people take it.

Melanie Avalon:
You can also get NAD straight as an IV or an intramuscular injection. I was doing those for a while. There needs to be more research, but theoretically, I'm pretty, I find the studies pretty compelling.

Melanie Avalon:
And I have some good friends in the sphere who believe in it a lot, like James Clement, who I really love. The thing about those is your mileage may vary, but for me, they A, they're very expensive and B, they always make me feel a little bit sick, which is like, it's like a lot of money to spend to not feel very well, but it's temporary.

Melanie Avalon:
It's only like 10 minutes that you don't feel well. But for me, I do not feel well after those injections, even though I know the long -term benefits are probably there. I did get really excited recently because I found a new brand that makes NAD patches and I am obsessed.

Melanie Avalon:
So out of all the options, like the NMN, the NR, which is another precursor to NAD, the IV is the injections. My favorite now is the NAD patches. Friends, this has changed my life because it gives you the access to putting NAD into your bloodstream, but it's transdermal.

Melanie Avalon:
And you have it at home. I made a video recently on Instagram about how to put on the patches, because you have to activate the NAD and you pour it on this patch and there's like saline solution. It's like a whole thing.

Melanie Avalon:
It's easy to do once you learn how to do it. They last for 14 hours, and then you can just have them at home and use them when you need. So I'm basically, because I usually go out once a week, so I'm kind of using them once a week the day after going out to boost my NAD levels after a night out on the town.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love them. They're called Ion Layer. And if you go to Melanieavalon.com/ionlayer and use the code MelanieAvalon, you get $100 off, which is crazy. So that's Melanieavalon.com/ionlayer with the code MelanieAvalon for $100 off.

Melanie Avalon:
But yes, to recap, NMN should not break your fast, NR should not break your fast. I like supporting NAD levels and my favorite now are NAD patches. Okay. Anything from you Vanessa, before we wrap up this episode?

Vanessa Spina:
episode. I had so much fun with you. I love the questions. As always, keep them coming and I can't wait for the next one. Me too. I had a lot of fun.

Melanie Avalon:
But so, so much fun for listeners. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon:
These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about, like those studies, and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode355. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike.

Melanie Avalon:
And you can follow us on Instagram where I have podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I just had so much fun. Yeah, just love getting to talk about all these topics with you. And I can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, I will... talk to you in the future. Bye. Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 31

Episode 350: NMN, NAD Patches, Finding Your Fasting Pattern, Excess Protein, Overeating, New Years Resolutions, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #227 - Dan Levitt

Welcome to Episode 350 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Go to www.melanieavalon.com/ionlayer to get $100 off NAD patches with the code MELANIEAVALON!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Listener Q&A: Jeff - Early is better?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 350 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 350 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, 350. Is that a milestone? Should we have made this some sort of episode? Like a special episode?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever done that for 350. I remember doing it for like 100 and then maybe the hundred, every increment of 100. I just had 500 on mine and I celebrated that.

Melanie Avalon:
500? Whoa.

Vanessa Spina:
But 50 in between? I don't know, like, maybe 400 or 500 would be. We can do something big for them.

Melanie Avalon:
400?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow. 500. Congratulations. That's a long time podcasting.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I didn't even actually do much for it, and then my brother texted me and he was like, oh, my gosh, congrats on 500 episodes. I was like, oh, that's so sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
350 is a nice number, though. It's great.

Melanie Avalon:
What was your first podcast experience, like, episode?

Vanessa Spina:
So I actually did it with my best friend Jess's brother, and we sat down together in Vancouver, and I had all the equipment on the dining table of this airbnb where I was staying, and her Brother Billy came over and we did an episode on hormones and exercise. He's like a personal trainer. It was really fun and it was in person, so we got to sit there and just podcast together. And I was like, oh, that was amazing. And, yeah, it's definitely one of the top downloaded episodes, obviously, because of the first one, but it did really well. That first one did well. And, yeah, I was so excited. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, so your first in person, and I've still never done an in person. Did you continue it in person?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I just did that one because I thought it would be a fun way to break the ice. Her brother Billy and I have a really good relationship and great chat. So I was like, this would be a great person to do the first episode with. Just like, not like an expert guest, but someone who's knowledgeable and someone that I flow really well with. So we did a really fun first episode, and I was like, this is going to be amazing. But I had, over the years before that, been invited on other people's podcasts, and every time I would do one, I was like, this is so fun. I love this. I get in the flow. I get in a flow state. I feel amazing. I could do this for hours. I was like, I need to do this. I need to podcast. So I was pretty excited to make the decision.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. I don't think I'd been actually, I might have been on. Oh, I do remember my first podcast, and I was so nervous. And it wasn't even. Not to say anything bad about podcasts, but it was not like a big deal podcast. But I was like, oh, I was so scared. And, wow, that puts things in perspective. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to record in person. How do you feel about, this is so random. When you're trying to find something that you need, how do you feel about the research? A lot. Be really specific. Try to find the perfect thing approach versus the throw it at the wall. Just like reach out to a million different options and kind of just see what manifests approach.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends on the thing, but I usually like to do both. I like to research, especially if it's something I'm not super knowledgeable on, so that I have lots of information. But I'm also a big fan of experimentation, so I think that's the best way to figure out the optimal way of doing something, trying different approaches. I'm such a big fan of experimentation when it comes to lifestyle, diet, nutrition, everything. So I like combining both.

Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Okay. Yeah. I thought about it for two reasons. One, I recently aired an episode. I think I mentioned it. Did I mention this last time? Dr. Jennifer Gutman and her beyond Happiness book and how she talks about how all decisions are guesses?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, you mentioned it because we had a question related to that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. That's right. I feel like I did this two nights ago because I'm still trying to find somebody in Austin when I go record with Dave Asprey in person to do the tech aspect because I was like, I need to research and find the person and make this a thing. And then I was like, I just can't do this. So I literally just wrote an email asking for what I wanted. And then I googled Austin podcast studios and then I literally just clicked the first dozen links. These are for in person podcast studios. And I just sent it to them asking if they could come help me remotely, which is like, not a service that any of these people, but. And I was like, whoever answers, I'll.

Vanessa Spina:
Just be like, yes, that's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon:
And then we'll be done. I'm not even going to think about it. Just like the first person that says I can do it, I'll be like, okay, come with me. This could go really bad, but that's fine. Point being of that is I think I used to be neurotic about all decisions and over researching and finding the perfect thing, and now I'm just to the point sometimes where it's like, you know what? Whatever works. Whatever works. We're just going to go with it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, well, you've been doing this for so long and we talked about before you doing like a dress rehearsal with your sister.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
It really works. See that?

Melanie Avalon:
But that would be putting in all the, all the energy where I'm kind of like, it would. I think I'm just going to not just show up because there's a lot of orchestration, but there's just like so much in life. Wow, this was a tangent. I did not mean to go down. I did want to share a resource really quick with listeners. So I've talked a lot about both NAD and NMN. So, long story short, NAD is basically a master metabolic coenzyme in the body. It's involved in all of your living cells, all energy production, everything that you do. It's more complicated than that. It's actually like a NAD NADH ratio. But regardless, declines in NAD are associated with aging and disease, and a lot of people focus on boosting their NAD levels. And so I've talked about this a lot. I take an NMN supplement nightly, even though it's confusing right now because the FDA is being weird about it. So it can be a little bit hard to get. I've also been doing NAD infusions. I did those for about, I don't know, maybe six to eight months. I was doing them every week. Have you done those, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So I like them. They're just very expensive. Very expensive, and they do not make me feel good in the moment. Like, they make me feel bad. So I'm like, this is a lot of money to pay to feel pretty bad for, like, a little bit. So those are the injections. There's also ivs, which are even more expensive, and I have not done one of those because I was like, there's no way I'm going to pay that much to feel this bad for a few hours compared to the injection, which. So it's an intramuscular injection. It lasts for, like, ten minutes, so I don't feel that well. In any case, a brand reached out to me called Ion layer, and they make NAD patches, and I am so excited because they're way more affordable than the injections and the IVs, and they have data showing that they do clinically boost NAD levels. And it's just so easy to do. Like, they send you the patches and then the Ned and some saline and some water, and it's like a whole process, but it's easy once you learn how to do it. And you basically activate the NAD and then you wear the patch. And it's kind of like for listeners who wear continuous glucose monitors, it doesn't stick anything into your skin, but it sticks on your skin, and then you put a cover over it that's kind of like those CGM covers. I'm obsessed. I have replaced doing the injections with these patches, so I'm doing these patches once a week, and I'm doing them because I tend to go out on Friday or Saturday, so I wear them after the next day after going out to boost my NAD from my activities. So I actually have an incredible code for listeners. Like, incredible. So you can actually get $100 off your first kit, which is crazy. So $100 off with the code, MELANIEAVALON. So for that, I'll make a link. So if you go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, that will take you there, and you can use that code, Melanie Avalon, for $100 off. So again, I highly recommend it. I'm going to implement this into my life and use it every week. They last for 14 hours. Okay, that's my update. Anything from you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I just finished having the latest protein shake with the latest version of tone protein, and it tasted great. It's really interesting. It's been taking a little bit longer than we anticipated to get the flavor right. And it turns out, because tone protein has added leucine in it. Leucine is a super bitter amino acid, so we've been trying different formulations. I think I also shared on the podcast how the tone protein samples that I had were making the tone device go crazy. And it was because there was actually alcohol in the vanilla, so we had to get rid of that, get another natural vanilla.

Melanie Avalon:
That still blows my mind. That really blows my mind that it lasted that long.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you sure? Yeah. I know you're sure.

Vanessa Spina:
I know. And the funny thing is, I was thinking, too, because I have tamari a lot with different meals I make, because I make a lot of low carb, like, asian food. And I was like, I use tamari, and there's a tiny bit of alcohol in there, but it doesn't seem to affect the tone device. But if I have cabbage, then the tone will blow, like, as much as if I had a glass of wine because of this raphano sugar in there. So there's certain things that it really does affect. But with that sample, as soon as I figured it out, it made so much sense, and it was very clear that that was the only thing. There was three days that week that it happened, and the only thing I changed was having that sample of tone protein. But then when I was talking to Scott a little bit more, he said that the vanilla also had some quote unquote natural sugars in it. And I was like, squeeze me. What? I was like, what do you mean, natural sugars? So apparently there were these natural sugars in, and I was like, this is like a non negotiable for me, like, no sugars. I don't want any alcohol in it. And as you like, Scott understands that particularness, know, festival or whatever you want to call it when it comes to supplements. So he was like, totally get it. Totally get you. Let's fix it. So I just got the new samples, like, 3 hours ago, and I just made my regular shake with almond milk and ice and tone protein. And so this version has something called a bitter blocker added into it, and I'm trying to keep it with as minimal ingredients as possible, but leucine is that bitter. That the bitter blocker actually made a huge difference. So I just was, like, having the last bites of it as we started chatting tonight, and it was great. So I think we have our winner. There's three other versions that he sent me as well, and some of them have some gums, like organic gums, like xanthum gum. Scott says there's all these health benefits. I was like, can we do it without the gums? He's like, there's really a lot of health benefits to them. Then finally, I said, can we do one without the gums? But instead, he decided to put collagen in. So I think that is going to help with the overall flavor profile and the bitter blocker. So nothing wrong with having some collagen in there. And, yeah, I'm excited because I think we finally have our winner. But it's crazy how long it takes with flavors, because when you have a supplement that's encapsulated, you don't have to worry about the way it tastes. Right? But when it's a supplement that's also a food, like protein powder, it's also got to taste great and not have weird aftertaste or not have alcohol in it. That's going to mess with my tone device and all my community members that love to use the tone, I don't want them to be having weird results. So, yeah, I'm excited because it tasted really good. So I think we're going to be able to launch really soon.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that is very exciting. I know what you mean about the flavor taste stuff, because right now, working on the spirit, Lena, that's something where you taste it and it's like a whole nother ballpark of the sensory experience to address. Congratulations. It's exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
I just have to swallow the spirulina. Like the spirulina and the chlorella. I just have to swallow it because I don't like the taste of any of those kind of green things.

Melanie Avalon:
I can't wait for your final manifestation.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, it's just so funny that I just happened to be eating it, like, right as we started and we were chatting.

Melanie Avalon:
People are going to be so excited to finally get it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, me too. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, by the time this comes out, this comes out January 1. Vanessa, we forgot.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year. That's what we should be celebrating.

Melanie Avalon:
We forgot to start looking at the date. Okay. Mental note. Melanie, look at the date. Okay. And now it's, like, too late. We're like, I have an idea. Let's talk about intermittent fasting and the new year.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, let's take a.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the. Like, we're on a train, and we're going to go down a different track. Or Disney. Wait, before that. How can people get all over the place? How can people get on the email list or get your tone protein and. Or find out information about it?

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
If you would like to be updated when it's going to be out. That's at Toneprotein.com. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll be added to the list. And it's the exclusive launch discount list, so it'll be the biggest discount we ever offer on tone protein. So that's at toneprotein.com. And thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. I'm so excited for you. I know it's been a long journey with you getting this formulation, so it's really exciting for the final version to come. And I know it's going to be the very best of the best.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
January 1. This is a question that must be asked of you, because I don't think we've had this conversation. Do you make New Year's resolutions?

Vanessa Spina:
I knew that was coming. I feel like it's always a blank slate. It's always an opportunity to set goals. But I'm not a big resolution person. I like to just be sort of setting goals all throughout the year and always trying to make sure that I always have something that I'm moving towards, something that I'm excited about, something that I'm just a goal oriented person. So resolutions are not really like, it feels more forced. I don't know. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm the exact same way. My life is driven by goals. It's exhausting in a good way. So I don't ever really have the need for a date with a specific goal because I would just have done that anyways. There's not any goal. If there was a goal I wanted, I would have already made it. It would be hard for me to think of something to do because I'm probably already actively pursuing it. How do you feel about. We have talked about this in past shows on New Year's, the pretty shocking statistics about how long diet resolutions last. How do you feel about New Year's goals? And is it a good time to try a new fasting window or a diet goal or something like that?

Vanessa Spina:
I do like it. I do think it's a good time to reset. A lot of people also like September for that. But it's really interesting because this is so pervasive. And if you work in health and wellness and fitness, then you know how seasonal it is. And there is this trend. Like, you can look it up even if you just look on Google trends, like see what people are searching. But if you work in health and fitness, if you work, especially helping people to improve their body composition, lose fat and build muscle, it's crazy what a high there is in January for wellness. People are super interested in wellness. And I like that. I like that people have that feeling of like, it's a new year, it's a blank slate. I'm going to be at my most fit ever, or I'm going to try this or try that. That they get this renewed sense of energy and desire and focus. I really like that. It's like, take that ride, that wave, use it to your advantage. The same way that women every month who are cycling have that first ten days of. Whenever you start a new cycle, you get this superwoman energy. Like, you have this estrogen rising. It's a great time to start a new lifestyle, nutrition plan, new fasting window, whether it's circadian fasting or Omad or whatever it is that you're interested in trying, take advantage. I think of those energetic highs and, yeah, it kicks off in January, really peaks, like January, February, March, April, May, then starts to slow down a little bit. There's a little bit of a summer slowdown, then it picks back up again towards September, and then it goes to the annual low between basically Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's events and everything that people have. No one's really thinking anymore about getting fit during that time, unless you're weird like us. But yeah, it's interesting. And I think it's great that people have that reset feeling.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. I love that so much. It's made me realize something about my life in that I feel like when I was younger, I used to always be sad about January coming because I didn't want the holidays to end. Like, I just loved Christmas so much. And it was like once January came, it's like, well, the sparkle is gone, but now life is just so exciting that I don't feel that way ever. I'm like, bring it on. I'm so excited about everything new. I do remember a statistic about the holiday weight gain that has stuck with me for a long time. And it was basically that people don't gain as much as we think. I'd have to find the study, and it was a while ago that I read it, but it wasn't a ton. Like, it was like a couple of pounds, but they don't tend to lose that. So it's like, people tend to maintain adding that pound or two extra each year. It doesn't go away. So, like, each year, their base point or their baseline is rising, which is concerning. I'm also really fascinated by the idea or the concept. I think about this a lot with cycles, how it feels like it's. I don't know if I can articulate this. It feels like we've been there before, and it feels like we're going in circles, but really, it's all new. That haunts me. I don't know how to articulate this. Like, weeks, like, we think it's Monday again, like, we've been here. We think it's Tuesday again, but really, it's all a new day, every single day. That really stresses me out if I think about it too much.

Vanessa Spina:
Which part stresses you out?

Melanie Avalon:
That we feel like we've been here before, but we haven't. It's literally, like, moving forward on the timeline.

Vanessa Spina:
What weirds me out is when I think about how we have these frameworks, about time and calendars.

Melanie Avalon:
They're not real.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're not real.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, good. You understood what I was saying. Okay. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Because I'm like, okay. I think of each week as seven days, and I know that it helps me mentally to know that I have five work days and two weekend days with holidays or long weekends or whatever, and that seven days. There's something about it that feels comforting that you have your calendar and you know each week and what your Monday is and everything, but I often think about the fact that it's totally made up and that there is no real thing. But as humans and the way our minds are, we thrive with that framework and having that consistency of the weeks and the calendar. And, I mean, some of it is real, right? Because we do have light cycles of day and night. We do have monthly cycles with the moon, and there's, like, the gregorian calendar and all this stuff. But I feel like this is something you need to get into on your rabbit hole podcast with Scott.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's such a good. So I'm just so happy you knew what I was saying. You articulated it. So we. We come up with this time structure, but it's not like we're like, oh, this is a Monday. This is another Monday. But, no, this is actually a new not. You have not been here before. It's very stressful to make it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's like one of those middle of the night thoughts, like, you wake up and you can't get back to sleep, and you're just like, the calendar isn't real. You're just staring at the ceiling with wide eyes going like, but it's Thursday. But it's not actually. It's just like, yeah, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
We'Ve had this moment? Oh, my goodness. No. I had a moment, actually, when I was reading, I mentioned interviewing Dan Levitt for his book what's gotten into you? About the history of atoms from the big bang until us. And he had, like, one sentence there that was so casual and such a throwaway, and I fixated on it. He mentioned how planets. Certain planets, rotate on their side or something. And I was like, how do we know what their side is that's not real? Who said where up is or down?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, gravity, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
But with planets rotating, they're just in. Like.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like, in relation to what I know. And those moments, I think, are important to know. When we were in Greece, we were walking and we all just looked up at the sky and we're telling, like, we live on a planet, and those are the stars, and the planet is going around the. And every time I think about that, I'm just like, what am I even like? We live on a planet that's just. None of it makes sense. But, yeah, it's all just, like, pretty wild.

Melanie Avalon:
Reminds me of probably one of my favorite lines in a Disney movie. Do you know what it is? Based on our conversation, can you guess?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think that I'll have enough time to guess.

Melanie Avalon:
It's in Lion King, when they're looking at the stars.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, what do they.

Melanie Avalon:
It's. What is it? It's Timon and Pumbaa discussing the stars. Oh, and Simba, he's present. And they're talking about. What are the stars? Simba is talking about how he was told that his dad told him the stars are like the kings of the past. And then Timon kind of talks down to him, and he's like, no, they're fireflies. Like, the stars are fireflies. And then Pumbaa's like. Because when you're little, this just goes over your head. But Pumbaa's like. I always thought they were, know, big balls of gas burning thousands of miles away.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember Pumbaa saying that.

Melanie Avalon:
And when you're a kid, you're like, oh, Pumbaa, you're so silly. But really, it's completely accurate. Yeah, because that's when Timon's like, no, they're fireflies stuck in that big, black sticky. It's so good. So good.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to show Luca lion king.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Yes. All the Disney stuff. He can wear his. Oh, I wanted you to say it because you texted it to me. So, what does he call the fireman outfit?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, Finerman. He's like, luca. We put him in the fireman suit, and I was like, I think he's going to like this. No, he loves it. And he wouldn't take it off. And he just kept looking at himself in the mirror. He's like, luca Feynman. Luca Feynman. We were like, yeah, Luca, you're a Feynman. And then he wanted to sleep in it, and he didn't want to take it off. He's got a little fire extinguisher and a little helmet, and he's got a little megaphone or whatever, and it's so cute. He's going to be so excited to wear it for Halloween. And I know it's the new year now. This is going to sound a little dated, but, yeah, Luca got to be a fineman.

Melanie Avalon:
The picture you sent me was, like, the cutest thing ever. I was smiling, so. Oh, treasures. Treasure yet? And maybe when this comes out, you'll have another treasure.

Vanessa Spina:
Hopefully, I definitely will. By that time. By the time this is out. Yeah, I'll be in the baby bubble. The love bubble.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Very exciting. Okay, well, happy New Year's to everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Happy new year.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Use this time energetically, this made up time, this fake construction, to fuel your life accordingly. I'm excited. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay, so to start things off, this is actually an update question. We got to an email. I'll reread the email that we already answered on the show. And then I thought I would just share the listener's update, because I thought it was. I'll just read it. So, Jeff and I don't know when we answered this originally, but he had written in saying that he listens to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. Oh, that reminds. I'm glad, glad I'm reading this. His team reached out to me about coming on my show. Do you know Dr. Greger?

Vanessa Spina:
That's crazy. He reached out to you.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. What's crazy, too, is, like, he's been on my list of people to reach out to to try to get on the show. The Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, not the intermittent fasting podcast. So I just need to make a note, because I don't think I heard back from them. Okay. So he says, I listen to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythms. And all of that because of our circadian rhythms, our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight. So I try and my window is eleven to seven. So 11:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m.. I snack from 11:00 a.m. Kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time. I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Gregor's advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners? So we answered that in an earlier episode and then what I thought was super cool was Jeff wrote in an update because in his original email he was contemplating eating earlier based on this information about circadian rhythm and how we metabolize it better during the day. And then his update he said, melanie, I do agree with your opinion of Dr. Gregor. Now I'm really curious what I said. I did submit that question a few weeks ago and my journey had really only just begun at that point. I've since shifted to a 24 during the week, consuming what is essentially one meal a day. When I get home from work, I snack while preparing supper and I might have an after supper beverage, but that's it. Hunger is not really an issue on weekends. Breakfast is such a ritual that I can't really avoid it. I've been able to delay it a bit and have an eight hour window from ten to six or eleven to seven depending on when I prepare brunch for my kiddos. All that said, eight hour worked short term, but excessive snacking through the day had me shorten it. Big benefit is that I eat no food while out and about during the day. I have way more control waiting until I get home. Ps there is some good analysis of the early versus late debate on the lean gain site. All right, Jeff, so thank you for the update. And what I really, really liked about reading this update is I think it's really telling to show how we can when finding the intermittent fasting pattern that best works for know. On the one hand, we can look at the theories and what people say is best and you should do this or you should do that based on this or know. In this case, with Dr. Gregor talking about eating earlier, and for Jeff, that just doesn't work for like it makes him more hungry. He does more snacking and so he finds for him that a shorter one meal, a daytime window where he's not having that snacking issue and then having the longer window on the weekends when he's having family related things, that that's what works for him and I think a really important takeaway here, and this actually applies to sleep as well, is consistency can really do wonders compared to trying something that you think might be, quote, more perfect and not doing that consistently. So kind of like with sleep, they'll say that there's like an ideal window when you should be getting up, going to bed at this time and getting up at this time. It's been shown pretty evidently that even if you have a non conventional sleep pattern, like maybe you're going to bed later than most people and getting up later, it's more important that you do that and keep it consistent rather than try to force yourself into a different pattern and be inconsistent with it. And so with Jeff, I really love that he found that regardless of what is said about the early eating or not, that this later window works for him. And I think the same could go for any manifestation of intermittent fasting. So I just want to really encourage people when they are trying to find the intermittent fasting pattern that works for them. You have to find what works for you and the thing that helps you with your hunger and if you have inclinations to snack and also the social aspect. So I thought that was a pretty nice update. Do you have thoughts on it? Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with your point on finding what works for you. I think that's a recurring theme that we have on the podcast. Know, there's a lot of studies out there that show different things, but at the end of the day, you have to experiment and figure out what works for you, even if the studies are there to help point us in the right direction or maybe give us ideas on what to test or what might be beneficial for us or understanding the mechanisms and pathways. But yeah, you really have to tinker and figure out what works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you find, I know we've talked about this before, but if you eat earlier, do you find that it makes you want to snack more, or are you pretty good with closing the window and being done?

Vanessa Spina:
It's the opposite for me, and I've been doing this recently. I'm eating more because I'm in the third trimester of my pregnancy and I'm trying to split up my protein meals. And I don't love it. I feel really full. I don't really want to have dinner. I make myself have dinner anyway, and it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas normally I kind of go through the day more so just feeling really energetic and not feeling the sort of slowdown that you get from all that digestion, and then when I have my main meal, especially dinner, I really enjoy it. Now I'm just like, it's not what I want to be doing, but because of what I know about muscle and protein and what the fact that my body's building another body right now, I have to really stay on top of the protein and eat more meals and eat smaller meals. But I find that the nutrient density, if you eat really nutrient dense, like say a first meal earlier in the day, especially if it's mostly centered around protein, that you will not have blood sugar spikes. And it's when people have blood sugar spikes and then the blood sugar then falls below where it was before. That's when people experience a hunger and fixation on food, which was my experience. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but when I eat, prioritize protein and healthy fats, which I usually always do for my first meal, I usually only have carbs later in the day. Then I am full for hours. I just don't really think about food, and it usually makes me want to eat less.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. For me, once I start eating, I can just keep eating. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And I know that a lot of people have that experience. Like Dr. Sean Baker said that, and a lot of people have said how omed is really beneficial for just. Especially if you prefer that not thinking about food. But for me, I think because I do more protein and fat, it's just so nutrient dense that I get so full and I just don't think about food at all. It's more like, I don't want it. It's more an aversion at that point. Like, no, I don't want any more protein. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I wonder if there are different types of people when it comes to your. I'm guessing there are. Especially reading books surrounding addiction and food addiction, like brightline eating or Glenn Livingston's books. I think some people, food, whatever it is, just lights them. Like, that's the way I am. I was always the type that going to buffets and stuff, growing. Like, I would literally eat until I felt like, nauseous. And even then probably want to keep eating. Whereas some people, I think, just don't. I find it so interesting how the brain, how certain things light up people's brains and not other people's brains. I'm just so fascinated by that. So like what you were just saying about eating the protein and fat and being full, literally, I don't have a memory. I think I can confidently say I do not have a memory of eating a meal and feeling full. I have a memory of that, but of feeling full and being like, okay, I don't want any more food. Like, I always want more food. And this is the way I've been my entire life. And that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Because what my body needs is I need to have my one meal a day, and then I need time. Like, I need to go to bed because I need to get in, like, hours for my body to switch over to the fasted state, and then I'm good. But as long as I'm in that, quote, fed state, I want to just keep eating. And like I said, that's the way I've been my entire life. That's why a one meal day in the evening works so well for me.

Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever say, okay, say I put a plate of six chicken breasts in front of you. Do you feel like you would get through, like, maybe two or three, and then be like, I don't want any more of this?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no way.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, you just have six, and then you'd still want to have, like, seven. 8910 and six chicken breasts doesn't even sound like that much to me. That makes my stomach hurt to think.

Melanie Avalon:
Say, 20 chicken breasts. That's a better. So, like, 20 chicken breasts. Yeah, no, I would want to keep eating.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you could physically eat 20 chicken breasts.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you'd be surprised.

Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, though, because one of the questions that we have actually is about sleep and protein. And I was just thinking today, as I was on my way back home to meet up with you for this, how we are so different when it comes to that, because one of us likes to go to bed with not a super full stomach, but you actually love to go to bed with this full stomach. So, yeah, it's funny how I think there are definitely different types. I don't know what you'd classify them as, but most people, I got to say, maybe you're a bit of a unicorn. Most people can eat 20 chicken breasts. And that's why I always say the steakhouses give you the steak for free if you can eat the 20oz or whatever, because they know most people just get to a point where their body's like, I can't store these amino acids, so we have to stop. And that's my favorite thing about protein. But I think it was Amy Berger was telling me once, maybe on a podcast, how she also felt that way about protein, that she didn't find it to be that. I know. I'm sure there's probably listeners out there who feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is so interesting one. I find it interesting. At those restaurants, normally they make you eat it in the context of, well, I feel like oftentimes you have to eat it with like a side or something, or like the burger ones. You have to eat it with the bun and things like that. When I see those now, I'm like, I could do that. If it was just a steak, it would not even be remotely a problem.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I could too, but I think most people don't win the free steak. But any carnivores, carnivores are high protein eaters. We probably could be fine. We'd probably win it.

Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of ironic. I don't think I've ever engaged in one of those, even in my low carb days. It's kind of interesting, though. This speaks to food addiction and palatability. I know Rob Wolf talks about this a lot. Like in those eating contest things. Oftentimes, Rob always talks about this one show or episode where the guy would be trying to eat all the stuff and be literally sick and couldn't keep going. But then he would. And I think he was eating like ice cream. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
If you switch from savory to sweet, you can keep going.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. He added in fries, and once he added in fries, then he could keep eating the ice cream. Which speaks to just the overwhelming problem with the food system today.

Vanessa Spina:
I was just interviewing him on my podcast yesterday, talking about food system.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we need to get him on this show. I was waiting for them to move. So they've moved and everything now. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're like setting up a element compound in Montana there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my going to. I need to email him. I need to email Gregor.

Vanessa Spina:
They can be buddies.

Melanie Avalon:
We can do an episode, have them both did.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we had most of the podcasts. We were like, kind of talking about people who are silly when it comes to nutrition.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? I want to listen to it. When does it come out?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it'll be out in a couple of weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
Two of my favorite people together.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. It was funny because we were kind of talking about. He made this really interesting point. It's the last point I'll make on this episode, but he said how we were talking about the health at every size movement, and then there's these different people who kind of sometimes will attack these different protocols and things that we recommend or follow. And the whole point of paleo or paleolithic protocols or keto or intermittent fasting is to help people feel better, right? But it almost gets sometimes twisted around to the point where it's like, oh, you're making people restrict too much and you're creating stress for people. He really feels that a lot. And he says that he's starting to get back on his more. What's the word for it?

Melanie Avalon:
Pro.

Vanessa Spina:
More like, what is it called when you're a big advocate for someone? Zealot? I think he said, I'm getting back on my zealous high horse, or something like that. Because he's like, no, these things that we do. Paleo helps people who have inflammation and who have digestive issues and who are dealing with chronic pain. He's like, this is a solution to help people who are in pain. Why is it being twisted around into something that's harmfully restrictive or stressful or whatever? And I was like, I never thought about that. But the way he phrased it was so perfect. So we spent a lot of the podcast talking about that and just how these protocols, like intermittent fasting and keto and prioritizing protein, it's really to help people who want help. There's a lot of people who need help, who have chronic pain, who have chronic inflammation, who have. I more so work with people who want to improve their body composition, but there's so few people in our society who are actually metabolically healthy. People need these interventions more than ever. So, yeah, we were kind of talking a lot about that on the episode.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that so much. And I know we're talking about because I know he kind of went through a period, I felt, where he felt like maybe he was more focusing on the issue of people being over restrictive. Like, he was kind of like, in that vibe. I'm guessing that's what he means by now, coming out more on the other side. I mean, I know he's always been pro paleo and pro things, but I feel like he goes through times where he's been not over fasting and not overdoing things.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we talked about that, too.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, nice.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because I know he has a pretty strong opinion on not over fasting. And he said that his last talk that he gave was, like, longevity. Are we trying too hard? But he gets really passionate about the fact that there are these people who are zealously wanting people to not have any restrictions. And restrictions are important, right. If you don't restrict yourself from crossing a busy highway, you're going to die. So why is the term restriction always in this very negative context or negative light. When restrictions can be so helpful, they can literally save our lives.

Melanie Avalon:
Highway lanes are the reason we can drive anywhere. Like, if we didn't have stoplights and if we didn't have lanes like those lines on the road, it would just be. I mean, have you been to Rome? Yeah. I'm sure you. I guess. I guess we would get places. Because my family is forbidden. We cannot go back to Rome. It stressed my mom out so bad.

Vanessa Spina:
The way they drive. Pete loves it. He's like, it's organized chaos.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember one day we just sat at, like, one of those because basically, for listeners who haven't been to Rome, they have basically the equivalent of roundabouts, but there's nothing in the middle. So it's not like a circle. It's just an open circle. And you just drive in and then you just drive out and there's like, no, we literally just sat on the curb and watched the cars. And they're going, like, not slow. I don't know how they do it.

Vanessa Spina:
Your mom would not like Vietnam or Hanoi either.

Melanie Avalon:
They do that there, too.

Vanessa Spina:
There's just a lot of people on, like, mopeds and motorcycles. And it's really hard to cross the street. You have to just wait for a gap, then you cross and you have to run. It's like, frogger.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my gosh. Frogger. Whoa. I forgot about Frogger.

Vanessa Spina:
Pete has this time lapse video of me trying to cross the street, and it looks like. Like it took me like half an hour to get to him on the other side because there was no opening and I thought I was going to.

Melanie Avalon:
Die with the logs.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Don't you jump from log to log. Sorry. I'm, like, stuck on the frogger train now. Yeah. Wait, I want to see this video of you. It's really funny.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm just like. I go forward, Elaine in the back, and then I'm just like, yeah. He was just laughing so hard and it's so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
That's something else that will. Speaking of our discussion about fake time, have you ever, like, especially if you see an aerial shot of a crowd, like a Disney world or something, how people and crowds don't run into each other? That's mind blowing if you think about it.

Vanessa Spina:
It is. Yeah, it really is. I think about that all the time when I'm. Sometimes I'm weaving through a crowd and I'm like, we have these sensors or something around us that give us some kind of indication.

Melanie Avalon:
Think about it. Especially, like, crowds that are really crunched together.

Vanessa Spina:
People rarely collide.

Melanie Avalon:
They don't.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really funny. I think about that all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy. It's mind blowing because think about how and these crowds can be moving fast. Like, you can have tons of people moving really fast in a tight crowd. Nobody runs into each other how and people are like going around each other. I mean, things to think about. Friends in your 2024? Oh, my goodness. Well, okay. I'm actually really excited about next. I'm always excited about next episode, but I'm excited about next episode with the question about protein and sleep because I did a lot of research. So teaser for next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@iofpodcast.com or you can go to iappodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode350 and you can get all the Stuff We Like ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to chat with you on the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise. Happy New year.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year, everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon:
And no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 04

Episode 346: Semaglutide, Ozempic, GLP-1, Glucagon, Gastric Emptying, Muscle Loss, Insulin Resistance, Exclusion Zone Water, The Mind Blown Podcast, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review

Welcome to Episode 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast AndGet 3 Lbs Of Free-Range, Organic Chicken Wings For Free In Every Order For A Year, Plus $20 Off Your First Box!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Receive $30 Off Your First Month, 2 CGM Sensors, Free Shipping, And Professional Nutritionist Support!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For Big Holiday Savings!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter, And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3 lbs of free-range, organic chicken wings for free in every order for a year, plus $20 off your first box!

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Receive $30 Off Your First Month, 2 CGM Sensors, Free Shipping, And Professional Nutritionist Support!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For Big Holiday Savings!

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Candice - This is potentially a strange question, but I’m wondering how semaglutide works.

Listener Q&A: Sunny - What do you think about ozempic & the ilk for weight loss?

Berberine Attenuates Hyperglycemia by Inhibiting the Hepatic Glucagon Pathway in Diabetic Mice

Antidiabetic Properties of Berberine: From Cellular Pharmacology to Clinical Effects

Berberine promotes glucagon-like peptide-1 (7–36) amide secretion in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats

AVALONX: Get 10% Off avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com! available for Pre-Order today!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing wonderfully. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. We are recording this so far in advance. I'm looking at the week that this comes out, which is the first week of December and I think I don't want to jinx it. Well, man, there might be multiple products coming out and multiple things coming out for me this month, but I think this is the week that I might be releasing my third podcast. Maybe that's the plan. So, I'm going to go ahead and say what it is. So, Scott Emmens, the fabulous Scott Emmens at MD Logic. He's been on this show multiple times. He and I are just like friends for life. And it's kind of a problem because we have a lot of business calls because we're constantly creating supplements together. And we actually have another side project we might be doing, which is very exciting, but we tend to just go on these really random tangents and talk for an hour about not work-related things.

And so, we realized one day that we should maybe have a podcast about all of this. Actually, started when we had a crazy theory about the Mandela Effect that we realized. So, we're going to be launching the Mind Blown Podcast hopefully this week. It's been so fun recording it thus far. Basically, each episode, it's so fun. So, each episode we start off by, we bring to the table a mind blown fact to share. So, we share one and then we rate each other's mind blown facts and we talk about it, and then we have the topic. Like I said, the first two episodes, it was going to be one episode, but of course, with Scott and I, it ended up going longer. So, it's a two parter about the Mandela Effect and our crazy theory surrounding it. And then yeah, there's some really good episodes after that, each episode will be an a la carte, like, mind blown topic.

Vanessa Spina: That's so exciting. Congrats.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's really fun to be podcasting, not about something health related. [chuckles] I mean, I'm sure some of it will be health related, but it's a different genre.

Vanessa Spina: That's so fun.

Melanie Avalon: So yeah. Do you think you'll start your other podcast some time?

Vanessa Spina: I think about it. Right now, I like it just as a thought you know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: It's like a happy thought. I'm like, “I love to do a podcast on that. I feel like I have so much to share,” but then I'm like, today I was like, “I could do a podcast about how to create products because there're just so many different topics that would be fun to get into.” But yeah, I think doing one on consciousness and mindset and consciously, deliberately cultivating a beautiful life, that's the one that I think would be just, like, a pure pleasure to do. So yeah, it's a happy thought right now, but whenever I mention, like, definitely listeners of my current podcast are like, “Oh, I would love to hear about that.” So, I can feel the joy of launching it. And I'm so happy for you and Scott because I feel like it's just going to just bring more joy to your life.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Yeah, it is so fun. It's really wonderful that I just so thoroughly enjoy all the podcasting stuff. Like, it's just so fun and they all fulfill different needs in a way. Like with the Melanie Avalon I'm learning, and I'm getting to learn about these topics and talk to amazing guests and meet new people. And then this one is my besties, friendship, nourishing for the soul and then talk about fasting. And I feel like the audience here, actually they've been here for so long, so it's kind of like family and friend’s adventure. And then with Scott thing, it's just kind of like a new, really fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you both.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. I also might be releasing, hopefully this month, our next supplement. Hopefully we're getting the final formulation figured out right now.

Vanessa Spina: Is this the spirulina one?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, I'm really excited because yes, we're releasing spirulina. We're working the final formulation right now, trying to get the best formulation, but there are so many health benefits to spirulina and I'm obsessed with it. It's basically, like, just one of the most nutrient-rich things you can get in a tiny little package, and it's great for detox and trace minerals and just so many things. It's like a superfood. I don't like that word, but I'm excited about it. But that's just a teaser because we're figuring it out all out right now, even though by the time this airs, I probably will have been talking about it a lot at that point. So yes, so listeners, if they would like to get updates about that, which I am so, so excited about. They can go to avalonx.us/emaillist. I'm just so excited. I can't wait till it manifests. And I really want the packaging. I love design. Like, Vanessa, we've talked about this. Like, we love packaging design and such.

Vanessa Spina: I just finished doing that today for the new Tone Device. So, like, I've been buzzing all day about it.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it fun?

Vanessa Spina: It's the best. But today we’re doing because the cover-- the boxes are already fully designed with the new second generation but today I got the samples, so I got touch them and feel them and see them. And the main difference is that it says Generation 2. But were also just adding all the logos because we finished doing all the third-party lab testing. And I'm now an expert [laughs] on third party lab testing for electronics. Because after the past few years of doing it, it's always a little bit nerve wracking because you're like, “What if the test fails or it comes back with like there's some kind of issue?” And we just got everything back. Everything is fully, fully certified and approved. But there's a lot of different regulations because I sell in multiple markets. So, the US has FCC for electronics and there's a whole bunch of them. But, like, in Europe, you have EN standards and RoHS. And then there's also UL testing for safety. And there's another one. Oh, and then there's like, California Proposition 65 that nothing in your products. Devices can have any of the certain materials or you have to disclose it. And it's not just the product, it's also the packaging.

So, it's a lot of stuff, but everything is fully approved. And we thought it would because the first generation all was-- so there wasn't any concern with it, but always just feels good to get everything, get all the certificates and then officially put all of those logos on the box and put all the details and everything. We were just finishing that. But I love it. [chuckles] I love that part. I love that part of design. I just love the creation process and getting the packages. And I'm now selling an accessory, which is the charging cable, because almost every week someone emails me and says that they lost their charging cable. So, I decided, like a year ago to just start making them and selling them as an accessory. And then we made this cute box with it. But I just got the actual finished box today, so it was really fun to get that and get it photographed and yeah, I just love it so much. I love all the design, the testing. I just love all the aspects of creating products. I don't know, since I was a little kid.

Melanie Avalon: I was just about to say, “Same here.” I was thinking, “We're so similar.” And I was thinking, ever since I'm like a little kid, I was, like, creating stuff.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, same. That's what my mom used to always say. I was just so creative. I was creating or inventing things and then selling them. Like, trying to sell them either, like, on the street [laughs] that sounds weird, on our sidewalk.

Melanie Avalon: What were some of the things you tried to sell?

Vanessa Spina: So, I would make jewelry. Like, at first, I started out with just friendship bracelets. And when my parents would go play tennis at their tennis court, I would go and sell them to people for, like, a dollar, and everyone would buy one, I guess because I was, like, a kid and you want to support kids. And then I upgraded because my mom would go on business trips to the Philippines and she'd bring back all these beads. She'd bring up these big bags of beads that she would get at the markets there. So, I would make all this jewelry earrings and necklaces, and I would sell them around whenever there was block parties or garage sales or things like that. But I had individual little plastic bags for each one. And then I printed a logo on the computer, like, in paint [chuckles] onto stickers--

Melanie Avalon: Paint. Windows 95.

Vanessa Spina: Doesn't that make you happy to think about Paint?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, I'm getting hit with, like, memories. Oh, the memories are flooding in. They're flooding. Do you remember Kid Pix? Did you ever use that?

Vanessa Spina: No. [laughs] What's that one?

Melanie Avalon: That was like software with-- but it was similar to Paint but upgraded.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that stuff makes me so happy to think about. I loved paint. Such simple times. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know, all the colors. Do you remember, like, the color wheel? It was like, ah, you could pick the colors.

Vanessa Spina: It was so good. Like, I want to do Paint right now. I’ve got to google some old-time machine version of Paint. It was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: You would have loved Kid Pix.

Vanessa Spina: It sounds similar.

Melanie Avalon: It was like Paint, but it was, like, for kids. And it had more stuff.

Vanessa Spina: Every time you say it, I'm like I feel like I played that at one of my friend's houses or something.

Melanie Avalon: You probably did. Do you remember going to computer class? I wonder do they still do that?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I loved computer class. I think it was one of my favorites.

Melanie Avalon: I always thought it was so, like, they were talking down to us. I was like, “I know how to do this. This is not complicated.” [chuckles] Why are we here?

Vanessa Spina: Computer class is probably just class now. Whereas, like--

Melanie Avalon: It probably is.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: But even you saying computer class makes me happy. I'm like, “Oh, I loved computer class.”

Melanie Avalon: I know. Did you do the typing games to learn how to type?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, typing tutor. There was typing tutor. I think we had one called

Melanie Avalon: I did JumpStart.

Vanessa Spina: It was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: It was stressful, though. Okay, that was, like, the one computer game, because it was like, you have to type the things fast. I was really stressful, especially when it was in class and you had to type words fast enough. I don't know. I didn't like the pressure of that. I'd rather just learn it on my own. Oh, do you know why? Oh, this was something. Oh, wait, there's like a fun fact and I don't know the answer. Did you know with the keyboard, the way it is set up is not the most efficient way? It doesn't really make sense the way it's set up right now. And so, they've tried to change it because I was reading something about how hard it is to change things in society, and they've tried to change it to make it more efficient, but you just can't because people are so used to the way it is now that they won't use a new manifestation, even if it's better.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that makes sense. I've also heard that about our mathematical system, like the Egyptian system or something was way better and made a lot more sense. And the way that we learn it now is weird and kind of clumsy.

Melanie Avalon: It's kind of upsetting. Like, if you're just in too deep, you just can't--

Vanessa Spina: Paradigm shifts are really hard, are really hard. Like the most mind-blowing thing-

Melanie Avalon: Oh, good. Let me add this to my list.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you definitely should. Gerald Pollack. I'm not sure if you've interviewed him or heard about him,-

Melanie Avalon: Yes, reading about him.

Vanessa Spina: -The Fourth Phase of Water. His book was the biggest mind-blowing thing that I've read about the fact that we have this gel like water that forms inside our cells, and it forms these sheets of honeycomb. They're like honeycomb, like hexagonal or is that hexagonal? These honeycomb layers around structures and so it's called structured water. It's kind of like a snowflake, but it's really amazing because we can actually charge it. And infrared heat charges that water. And so, he discovered this and he was basing it on the work of some of his colleagues and predecessors, and it's really, really fascinating. So, they have this fourth phase water that they actually put two electrodes into charged water and it was able to light a light bulb.

So, our bodies are actually batteries and we have this water inside of us that is like a gel and we basically can charge it up by going into the sun. Like, the sun is 50% infrared and infrared energy is all around us. Like, if you had infrared goggles on, you could see energy coming from everything around you. But the sun gives us a lot of charge and it charges up that water. So that water, he also calls it exclusion zone water and it expands. And when you-- this is the part that, okay, that already blew my mind, because it's like, okay, we need to redo all of science and redo all of biology with this understanding. When you do cold exposure, like cold plunging, you basically are doing it a lot of ancient cultures or Northern European cultures, they do it in the winter because there's no sun. And by getting cold, it then forces our bodies to generate infrared heat from our core and that charges up our cells and gives us the same kind of energy that we would get from the sun in the summer, which is like, amazing, but also red-light therapy. The infrared on that also charges up and so does infrared sauna. But it's so amazing. I got to interview him on my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: You did?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and I was just--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I want to interview him. That's amazing. When did you interview him?

Vanessa Spina: Was like maybe six or eight months ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, recently?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And you will love him. He's one of the kindest, most down to earth people I've ever interviewed. And it's amazing because you and I talk about this all the time, but you have these-- I don't know if you can even call him a scientist-

Melanie Avalon: Legend.

Vanessa Spina: -yeah, legend who've done so much, made these incredible discoveries, and you'll talk to them and they're just like the most down to earth people in the world, even though you wouldn't expect that. And then you talk to other people who haven't really accomplished that much and they're like not down, you know what I mean? They have overinflated egos and stuff. So, it's so nice when you meet someone like that and yeah, he's just so incredible. You have to interview him and read his books because what's really fascinating too, is apparently Russian scientists had discovered it a long time ago and then when it was sort of like challenged by the international scientific community-

Melanie Avalon: They didn't get backlash?

Vanessa Spina: -yeah, there was a lot of backlash. And so, at the time, Russia was embarrassed. So, they made the scientists who discovered it publicly say that he was wrong. But Gerald Pollack worked with his mentee or someone who was like an assistant or mentee of his, and he said that he knew that he was right and he knew that he was right until the time that he died. But he had to publicly say that he was wrong just to not bring shame on the country. And so, thankfully, Dr. Pollack has taken on the work. But it's really fascinating. Absolutely fascinating, because our bodies do get energized by the light. We are learning that. We do get energy in other ways. And it all kind of goes back to the mitochondria, because this exclusion zone water forms inside the mitochondria. And that's one of the reasons the mitochondria cristae have all those folds, because the more folds there are, the more exclusion zone water can form around those structures. So, it's most mind-blowing thing I learned in 2023. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Vanessa Spina: Paradigm shift. It's like we need to redo all understanding of biology and physiology and medicine everything based on this. But are we going to? That the quantum sort of like the whole quantum physics, quantum biology sphere that we now have technology to learn about, but it's teaching us things that we have to rebuild everything. And that's so hard to do.

Melanie Avalon: It's kind of like the book I just finished and I'm interviewing him on Monday. It's called, What's Gotten Into You: The Story of Your Body's Atoms, from the Big Bang Through Last Night's Dinner. And it's basically, the history of molecular physics and quantum physics and atoms and everything, like I just said, from the Big Bang to you. And my takeaway from that book, which I've been listening to while putting sequins on my Taylor Swift outfit, it's a nice contrast, is that we have no idea about anything. And it's crazy, the history of people finding ideas and having theories and being discredited or looked down upon, but then they turn out to be right, but then we still don't even know. And there's so much cognitive bias that's kind of like a theme of his throughout the book, is that it's really hard to see beyond biases based on preexisting evidence or what we want to see. And I don't know, I walked away from the book feeling both very excited and empowered and also feeling like we don't know anything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know the feeling. [laughs] It's like the more you know the more you realize you don't know. And it's an interesting-- it's like mixed emotions for sure. But I think it's also a sign that you are actually learning more. Like, the more humbled you become of how little we know. [chuckles] But I also love to listen to audiobooks while I'm doing stuff around the house. I love that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so fun. It's so satisfying because doing stuff around the house or putting sequins on Taylor Swift outfits or cleaning is, like, satisfying in and of itself. But then listening to learning knowledge is so satisfying. I don't want to just sit there and listen. Not that it's wasted time. Not that we need to be multitasking super productive 24/7 but and I do feel really nice when I combine them. So, you get all the dopamine from the learning and the cleaning, ah, so fun.

Vanessa Spina: One thing I learned from Alison Armstrong is women get a lot of oxytocin release from repetitive hand motions. So, if you're doing some kind of fine work, like detailed work, like, needlepoint or putting sequins or knitting, you actually get a lot of oxytocin from that. So that's probably extra.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So, when I’m adding those sequins.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, I should stop this train, but I'm just thinking about little things when I was little, did you do the thing with the bright, like, the rainbow? It was like stretchy rubber band things and you put them on like what's it called?

Vanessa Spina: Like a loom.

Melanie Avalon: A loom, [laughs] okay.

Vanessa Spina: A 100%.

Melanie Avalon: And you like braid it, they braid it together.

Vanessa Spina: It made me so happy.

Melanie Avalon: I was never quite sure what the purpose was of the finished product. But you made this thing, but what do you do with it? It was like just a thing. Kind of like [chuckles] one of the things I would make is when I discovered making glue chips. Did you make these? You put glue in a cup and then you take paint and swirl it in and you can make like, rainbow glue chips. But what do you do with these glue chips?

Vanessa Spina: It's just the activity, the intrinsic value of the activity itself.

Melanie Avalon: And then like, the artifact created from it. Oh, how about the spinney paper thing where you drop the paint in and it makes--

Vanessa Spina: That gives me goosebumps. It makes me so happy to think about.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so happy. Like with a color that drops it, but then when it stops, it never quite looked as brilliant as you thought it was going to-- I didn't think it ever looked as brilliant as I thought it was going to look while in the spinning phase.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there was one with detergent and water and color drop.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it jumped away from each other.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, all that stuff. We had this one book and it was like activities for kids that are like sciencey. And I was always like, “Can we do it.” [laughs] But makes me happy to think about them. I got to redo all them with Luca.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Oh, yes. Did you have the craft series of books? Craft kids or something.

Vanessa Spina: Probably. It sounds really familiar.

Melanie Avalon: That was my favorite. They had a lot of great science books as well. Shall we jump into some fasting-related topics?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, Vanessa and I are so excited to talk about this. We have had multiple questions come in about Ozempic and semaglutide. So here are two of them and then we're just going to talk about the topic in general. These are both from Facebook. Sunny asked, “What do you think about Ozempic and the elk for weight loss? Effective and presumably safe or scary with three question marks.” She says, “And what are the safe alternatives that will give results if your insurance won't cover it?” And then Candice, also from Facebook, asked she said, “Hi, I love the podcast. This is potentially a strange question, but I'm wondering how semaglutide works. I am not interested in taking it. I asked because one of my parents started taking it. I looked into how it worked and based on what I know about insulin, it makes no sense to me. My parents had been doing IF and saw great results. Then he got really sick, had to stop IF to recover, and he gained a lot of weight. One of his doctors put him on semaglutide. He lost no weight in two months on it. Now he's been back doing IF for two months and is gaining weight. Did he become insulin resistant? I'm truly baffled.” Okay, I have so many thoughts about this. Vanessa, would you like to tell us a little bit about semaglutide?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. I did a whole episode on semaglutide this summer on my podcast. I was doing a bunch of research for it, but it's really fascinating to learn about the actual mechanism of action. So semaglutide itself is a peptide and it actually is sold under two main brand names. So, the one that you mentioned is Ozempic and that was actually first approved in 2017 as a treatment for type 2 diabetes. But in 2021, the FDA approved the same drug under a different brand name, which is Wegovy. Everyone talks about Ozempic, so Wegovy is the brand that basically is for weight loss, but they're both the same thing. They're both semaglutide and they're both made by a pharmaceutical company called Novo Nordisk.

So, what's really interesting about them in terms of how they work, which I think is a big question that's on everyone's mind. And so, when it comes to weight loss and weight gain, it's really about energy balance. And so, you have to create either a deficit or unbalance that energetic balance by either consuming less calories, less energy intake, or generating more energy expenditure. And the way that semaglutide works is actually reducing caloric intake because it suppresses appetite, like to the point where people have not much interest in food at all. And so, it suppresses appetite, but it also has a number of other mechanisms of action that are really fascinating. So, most people are losing weight because they're just not hungry and so they're consuming fewer calories. And so that is creating a loss of body weight/body fat, because I'm going to get into that as well, because it's not necessarily all body fat, which is the concerning-- One of the concerning parts about it, because I find it to be more so scary than anything else.

And so, there is a peptide in the body called GLP-1. It's glucagon like peptide and it's basically a glucagon like peptide receptor agonist. So, drugs either come in the category of agonist or antagonist. So, an agonist binds to the receptor on a cell in the same way that the actual molecule would in the body. So semaglutide mimics the action of glucagon like peptide 1 or GLP-1. And so, it binds to the receptors in the same way that the body actually perceives it to be GLP-1, even though it's not GLP-1. [chuckles] So that's why it is an agonist, whereas antagonist will also bind to the receptor but actually blocks the action or the mechanism. So, the reason that you can't actually just use GLP-1 is GLP-1 has a really short half-life, it's like 2 minutes, whereas semaglutide extends that half-life to about seven days. So that's why people get an injection once a week if they are taking it regularly. Their chemical formula is very, very similar. GLP-1 is a polypeptide that has either 36 or 37 amino acids with a chemical formula that's very similar to semaglutide, which is a polypeptide with 31 amino acids. But the basics of it is that semaglutide is similar enough to GLP-1 that the body recognizes it as GLP-1.

So, the way that it works is GLP-1 is actually a hormone that is released from the gastrointestinal tract or the gut when you eat. And one of the roles, just one of the roles of GLP-1 is to prompt the body to release more insulin and produce more insulin. So that actually reduces blood glucose by increasing glucose uptake in the muscles so that secretes insulin or produces more insulin. And that then pushes some of our glucose into the muscles, gets it out of the bloodstream, and it also decreases glucose production in the liver. So, it inhibits glucagon which is the antagonist hormone to insulin, because glucagon causes glycogen breakdown in the liver, which actually raises our blood glucose levels. So some of the effects that take place because of the GLP-1 secreted by the gut really reduce blood sugar spikes after eating by stimulating this insulin secretion and inhibiting the glucagon. But that's not the only thing it does.

GLP-1 also slows gastric emptying. So that's the time it takes for food to empty out of the stomach. And so, it takes longer for the food that you eat that ends up in your stomach to then go to the small intestine, where most of the food is then absorbed into the body. So, if you delay gastric emptying, you also slow down and stabilize blood glucose responses to your meal, which is another way that GLP-1 limits blood glucose spikes during that post mealtime. And because the blood sugar is going to be so stable, you're not going to have that blood glucose spike. And then the fall, which is what makes people typically feel really hungry, is when their glucose spikes and then crashes afterwards. Another thing that GLP-1 does is it actually acts on the brain. And there's some really aggressive research that is taking place right now. University of Florida researchers are currently researching that GLP-1 that is secreted by the gut is different from GLP-1 secreted by the brain. And so, they're suppressing eating via two independent circuits, which is one of the reasons it is so powerful as an appetite suppressant.

So, the main reason that people need to take semaglutide is, again, because of that short half-life of GLP-1, when it only lasts for 2 minutes as opposed to seven days. In terms of side effects, this is one of the many scary aspects of this to me. But the list of side effects is so massive. Nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, constipation, abdominal pain. It goes on and on and on, but one of the ones that's been getting a lot of headlines is this paralysis of gastric emptying. So, people are having, like, their stomachs are becoming paralyzed from using semaglutide, which doesn't surprise me because you're using something that is-- like if you think of a half-life being 2 minutes compared to seven days, it's so much more powerful than our endogenously produced GLP-1. So, it does cause a lot of weight loss. There were five big studies that were done on semaglutide called the STEP trials. And unfortunately, one of the big things that is really alarming and scary about these peptides is that people are losing a lot of weight, but it's not all fat. So, this is my Peter Attia quote he said-- I'm not sure when exactly he said this, but he said, “That almost every patient that we put on this drug semaglutide has lost muscle mass at a rate that alarms me.”

So not all of the studies, the STEP trials measured body composition, but there was one of them in particular that did. And in that one, the proportion of their weight loss was 39% from lean body mass, so almost 40%. Whereas standard weight loss, if you're doing it well, you're losing at the most 25% lean body mass. Like you do not want to be losing 39% or 40% of your lean body mass and only 60% coming from body fat. So, in the STEP 1 study, the subjects who were on the semaglutide, they lost 43% body fat and lost 57% of their lean body mass, which is absolutely massive. And then there was one other study where body composition was measured and it was called the SUSTAIN 8 trial. It had 178 people and the average proportion of lean body mass reduction was 40%. So, people are losing huge amounts of weight, but a lot of it is coming from their lean body mass. And that big part of that is muscle which you don't want to lose, especially after the age of 40. But there're only certain situations where people are morbidly obese where these kinds of rates of lean body mass loss are less of a risk because someone has that much body fat, it's more likely to come from body fat. But people who are taking this, who are not morbidly obese are going to be losing a lot of lean body mass.

So, there're a lot of studies that have come out where they compared semaglutide to a placebo group. And like I said, the amount of weight loss with semaglutide was pretty high. There was one study that was two years long, was really interesting because they did like 104 weeks and most of the weight loss happened in the first year and the second year they just maintained. So, I'm not sure what's happening, but a lot of people have concerns about what happens when they go off it and I think that's something that we have yet to see because in this study that was two years, the participants lost an average of 35 pounds in the first year. But the second year they just maintained and sometimes went up a little bit and they're still on it. So, what happens when they go off it? The chances that they're going to be able to maintain the weight loss I think are pretty slim. And so, you may end up in a situation where you lose a bunch of weight, 40% of it is lean body mass and then when you go back to your normal appetite levels, when you're no longer injecting yourself once a week, you're just going to gain fat back. And that's how people end up with really poor body composition where their body fat levels are super high, body fat percentages is really, really high.

So, there've been a lot of headlines lately about the side effects. There was one I think on CNN saying hundreds of thousands of people are having this paralysis of their digestion which is just like unimaginable to me, like your stomach is just not emptying at all. I'm not sure how severe that is, how easy it is to fix. But also, in the studies people had a lot of adverse events and most of them were gastrointestinal and really not pleasant. So that's really how it works in terms of the specific questions, in finding something that's a safe alternative. The thing that stands out the most to me about these drugs or these peptides is like well that's what a lot of the stuff that we do in terms of lifestyle and nutrition, that's what they do for me, like prioritizing protein suppresses my appetite. And it's because of the satiety hormones released from the gut and released from the brain. So doing a lot of these kinds of strategies, intermittent fasting for me, carbohydrate restriction, prioritizing protein, all of this stuff really works for me to get these same benefits at the same time teaching me healthy habits that I can maintain easily without a risk of side effects without a risk of losing tons of lean body mass. So, for me, I don't know of any pharmaceutical safe alternatives, but I think that's what we try to talk about a lot on this podcast is the safe alternatives that are more lifestyle, nutrition oriented that I think over the long term are going to be much more beneficial.

And as far as Candice, when you were asking about your family member who did not lose any weight in two months on semaglutide and then going back to intermittent fasting and gaining weight, potentially becoming insulin resistant in terms of the mechanisms, you know semaglutide is pushing out more insulin and causing the body to produce more insulin. So, it's possible that some, like the basal insulin levels could have been raised through going on it. I'm surprised that he didn't lose any weight. But a lot of people, like, some people lose a ton of weight and some people don't. So, it kind of seems to be very dependent on the person. It could have given him potentially some kind of higher basal insulin resistance or sorry, higher basal insulin, which can be measured by fasting insulin. So, you could have his fasting insulin tested to see what that's at because that might help shed some light on it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Awesome. Okay, thank you for all of that information. I love talking about all of this. I'll put a link in the show notes and it's so interesting because I didn't realize the name. You said the company was Nordisk, right?

Vanessa Spina: Novo Nordisk.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'll put a link into the show notes. There's a January 2023 review published in Diabetes, Obesity, and Metabolism called Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review and it provides an overview of the I think now there's actually been 8 STEP trials on semaglutide. And what's funny, because that was the first thing I read when I sat down to research this. And reading it, I was like, “Oh, wow, this is really impressive,” [chuckles] because it talks about the weight loss throughout the trials and compared to placebo and the beneficial effects on blood sugar and potentially even cardiovascular benefits, then it really minimizes the side effects. I think basically it says that around 75% have GI side effects, but that few discontinue the treatment. The numbers it gives across the different trials, I mean, they're losing around 14.9% to 17.4% weight loss compared to the placebo groups, which is really low, anywhere from like, 0.8% up to 4.5%.

I didn't realize this when reading it, but I scrolled down to the bottom after you said the name of the company. It says that basically it was funded by Novo Nordisk. So, like, oh, that makes sense [laughs] that it's the company creating these drugs that is funding this research. Something I wanted to comment on, for Candice's question about the insulin issue and Vanessa was touching on this a little bit. I was also just like, at the beginning, confused about this because we talk so much about how we want to reduce insulin release and so much of our diet and our lifestyle and fasting is all about minimizing insulin release. So how can something a glucagon like peptide 1, a GLP-1, a hormone that is increasing insulin release, how is that a potentially beneficial thing for weight loss? And what's really interesting about the context of this and Vanessa was talking about this, but just to dive a little deeper into it, that insulin glucagon connection.

Diving into this, I'm actually thinking it's kind of crazy. We don't talk about glucagon more like we're so focused on insulin. But the primary issue of hyperglycemia, so high blood sugar in diabetes, it's not from well, technically, way down the line, it's from the food you ate, but it's not from the food you just ate. It's from the liver producing it. That's the majority of the burden of the blood sugar. So, glucagon releasing blood sugar is the, I don't want to say the primary issue, but it is a huge issue. And there's been even rodent trials where they have inhibited the rodent's ability to produce glucagon in diabetic rodents, not change their insulin levels, and it normalizes their diabetes. So, the role of glucagon is huge. And so, if you have glucagon releasing blood sugar and then insulin trying to keep it down, if you have that battle going on 24/7, A, it's very exhausting for your pancreas and your insulin. And B, it creates a state where you're constantly having to release insulin to mitigate your high resting blood sugar levels in the fasted state as well as after you're eating.

And what's really, really interesting about GLP-1, peptides, hormones, is that the effect on glucagon, so they reduce glucagon, which is creating this issue of high fasted blood sugars. The effect on insulin is glucose dependent, so they don't cause the pancreas to release insulin in the fasted state. It's from when the body is metabolizing glucose. So basically, the benefit of GLP-1 is it's actually creating helping your body. I'm not saying this as an advertisement for semaglutide, but GLP-1, which semaglutide is acting like is helping create the ideal state of insulin and glucagon in your body. It's helping create a state where you're not releasing blood sugar all the time, not having high fasting blood sugar. And then you are releasing insulin when you need it, when you're eating carbs and sugar, and you're able to properly store that and it increases insulin sensitivity. So, I think that can help explain why it's actually helpful with the insulin release. There's like some context to it. And then what's interesting as well about the muscle piece is because I read an article also by Peter Attia, I was looking at it again, I think it was-- so you said you listened to him talk about that on a podcast, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was from a podcast I think or from an article that he wrote about a podcast, maybe transcript.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's, yeah, because I was reading that article as well because he was talking about that 8 trial that you mentioned.

Vanessa Spina: SUSTAIN 8. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The SUSTAIN 8. He also mentioned. I find this really interesting because I agree that the muscle loss is very scary. I have two thoughts to complicate it further because I think okay, step back. I think the majority of people, and I don't know this as a fact, but I would assume the majority of people, a majority of people going on semaglutide for weight loss on their own rogue or with the doctor, they might not be prioritizing protein, they might just be taking it and not eating. So, [chuckles] they’re just like losing weight, fat and muscle. What's really interesting is apparently, despite those shockingly high muscle losses that were seen in the STEP trials in these STEP 1 patients, even though they lost a ton, they actually increased their lean mass to body fat mass proportion by 3%. And in the SUSTAIN 8, they increased their lean mass to fat mass proportion ratio by 1%. So, while it was a shocking amount of weight loss and muscle loss, their body composition was actually slightly better in the muscle to fat ratio.

That said and this is what Peter talks about in his article, he talks about how maybe that muscle loss is something that I don't want to say is okay, but people who are severely obese or overweight, they can afford it if they maintain muscle thereafter. But for people who are-- so many people are like normal weight and using this or they're only a little bit overweight and they're trying to use this to lose weight. And I just think the muscle loss is a big concern and especially if you're not prioritizing maintaining muscle. I would be so curious. I would love to see studies on semaglutide in people on a very high protein diet. So, people who are like and who are resistant training-- I'd be really curious if they experience the muscle loss or not. I don't know if we have studies on that. So, stepping back from all of it and I didn't know I'm so glad you talked about that. I did not know that, Vanessa, about the half-life and the long-term effects, you were talking about people like the stomach paralysis. That's terrifying. When I first learned about semaglutide and I learned that it makes your stomach, like, delays gastric emptying, I mean, I have such a fear of constipation. I was like, “Nope.” I was like, “You cannot pay me to put that in my body.” That is terrifying to me. So, to step back from all of it, GLP-1 as a natural substance, that's so interesting Vanessa, about the 2 minutes, you said 2 minutes is what the normal half-life is compared to seven days.

Vanessa Spina: So short. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: That's concerning that you're-- yeah, 2 minutes versus seven days.

Vanessa Spina: But that's the whole point, like you said, is the people who are taking semaglutide are the people who are not prioritizing protein and that's probably why they're struggling and they're probably not doing resistance training and so they are the most at risk for that muscle loss. And again, if you're like morbidly obese, it's probably worth it and you'll probably be fine because like you said those ratios will even out and a lot of the people in those studies were obese. But if you're taking it and you're taking it as like a vanity drug or something and you are not morbidly obese, that also puts you at a higher risk for losing more lean mass, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I really personally would only take it, I think, if I was obese and if I did not have a fear of constipation and if I was hardcore prioritizing protein and resistance training during that weight loss phase. I just think that's so, so important. So many people are just trying to take it off label, which is legal. Doctors can prescribe it for weight loss, it's just considered off label. It's only approved for-- Vanessa mentioned the different things it's approved for. And even with the weight loss one that's approved, you actually have to technically have another condition, another metabolic issue as well alongside it or cardiovascular issue. But the thing is, a lot of people who are very obese probably have metabolic syndrome, so they probably do have one of the criteria.

Vanessa Spina: One of the weird things about it that I've been hearing lately is that it's popping up in malls. And even there was one person who said that their nail salon or it was either nail salon or hair salon is now offering it. So, I think it's just like people are seeing that it's selling so well. It's so popular that there's probably going to be those kinds of unregulated situations showing up. It's the same thing as maybe like getting Botox, like where you get your nails done or whatever. You definitely would want to see a physician about it or your physician who can track you and make sure that it's something that's potentially safe for you. But the side effects of it are so scary to me. I would not let anyone in my family or friends go on it because the risk of your stomach becoming paralyzed. I mean, I don't have anyone right now in my family who's morbidly obese.

You probably have to weigh the risks if that's like your situation and if you feel like you've tried everything and nothing has worked for you. I just think that there are so many healthy alternative ways of getting a lot of the benefits of appetite suppression, for example, that don't have the risk of these side effects and ultimately are more long term. Like, the results will be more long term. Because my biggest concern is what is going to happen to these people when they stop taking it, if you have to take it for a whole year after just to maintain, what's going to happen when they stop injecting themselves every week or do they have to do it for the rest of their lives?

Melanie Avalon: Well, to that point, kind of like with Candice's question, because it sounds like her dad was doing IF, he was doing well, he got sick, he had to stop IF and he gained weight, so probably stopping the IF is the reason he gained weight, because the IF was working with him to either maintain or lose weight. So, then he goes on semaglutide. It sounds like then he started maintaining his weight. He didn't lose weight, but he wasn't gaining. And so, it sounds like maybe semaglutide was keeping him from gaining weight, and then he stopped the semaglutide goes back on IF and is gaining weight. It could be multifactorial. It could be a long-term effect, like Vanessa was saying earlier and just now. Now he's no longer on this drug and might be having residual side effects that have made it worse than before being on it. And now he's gaining weight even though he's doing IF. So I will say and I agree completely with Vanessa that the lifestyle way is how I would go this and actually so is there a natural compound that increases GLP-1 naturally in your body? Yes.

So, berberine, which I have a berberine by AvalonX and I am obsessed with my berberine. So, it's a plant alkaloid. There're a lot of studies on it for its beneficial effects on blood sugar control, glucose metabolism, its effects on insulin and the mitochondria and even AMPK. And there are quite a few studies showing that it increases GLP-1 in the intestines and has positive effects on glucose metabolism. And that's been theorized that might be one of the ways that it works so well for diabetes and blood sugar control. And then it has a lot of benefits beyond that for blood sugar control but it does directly affect GLP-1. So, what I would suggest, I think is you can take something like berberine. So Berberine is not going to make you lose weight because it's not going to have that effect of semaglutide where you're just not eating and your stomach is paralyzed. But if you want to get these GLP-1 enhancing benefits, you could take something like berberine and then use your dietary approach and lifestyle to address the natural calorie restriction and reduced appetite, like fasting.

So fasting will do that on a high protein diet, a whole foods-based diet, that's what I would do. And that's completely sustainable. And berberine is going to have benefits and it's been used for thousands and thousands of years in traditional Chinese medicine and ayurvedic medicine. So that's what I would personally do. That would be my semaglutide hack. Again, it's not going to wipe out your appetite and make you stop eating but you will get some of that GLP-1 enhancing effect.

Vanessa Spina: I love that. [chuckles] It is awesome. Another one that does it is protein. So, one of the reasons consuming protein is so satiating is when you consume dietary protein, you get GLP-1 secreted from the gut. You get CCK, you get peptide YY and all of these are secreted in the gut, as we talked about and they diminish and suppress appetite and they also decrease ghrelin levels or the gremlin. My friend, Dr. John Lemanski always calls it the gremlin hormone. The ghrelin which is the hunger hormone, you know, just prioritizing protein can also be a semaglutide hack, maybe with some berberine together [chuckles] too, but also intermittent fasting, fasting doing-- I know you eat more of a higher carb diet but there're a lot of benefits to doing restricted carbohydrate. It's one option for people that does really suppress hunger with the ketones. There're just so many ways that you can get the benefits that are very similar to these peptides without having to take on all the risks.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds like we're on the same page.

Vanessa Spina: Love the questions. I'm so glad we got to talk about this, it's so topical right now.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. And if listeners would like to get my berberine, they can go to avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. You can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. Okay. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Make sure to sign up for Tone Protein at [laughs] toneprotein.com as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Which by the time this comes out, will that be?

Vanessa Spina: It should be out, yes. So, if you are signed up at Tone Protein, you will get the launch discount for it. Yeah, it should be out and available by then. So that's toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and a transcript. That is at ifpodcast.com/episode346. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun with you and can't wait to record more next week.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. This was so fun. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Nov 26

Episode 345: Fasted Marathons, Stress Resilience, Finding Happiness, Decluttering, Nesting, Being Overwhelmed By Lifestyle Changes, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #226 - Matthew Lederman

Welcome to Episode 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Choose Your Own Steaks For A Year Plus $20 Off your First Order!

LMNT: The Days Of Rationing Down To Your Last Stick Pack Are Over – Grapefruit Salt Is Here To Stay. For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! Joovvs Biggest Black Friday Sale Is Here With Their Biggest Discounts Ever. Save Up To $1,300 On A New Joovv System Including Their Popular Joovv Solo Which Is Now $250 Off For Limited Time. Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Choose Your Own Steaks For A Year Plus $20 Off your First Order!

LMNT: The Days Of Rationing Down To Your Last Stick Pack Are Over – Grapefruit Salt Is Here To Stay. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

JOOVV: Joovvs Biggest black Friday sale is here with their biggest discounts ever. Save up to $1,300 on a new Joovv system including their popular Joovv Solo which is now $250 off for limited time. Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Feedback: Lauren - Thank you!

Listener Q&A: Annie - How can we live a “normal” life, when we are always inside an expensive bubble full of products and of denials that most take for granted?

I'm Biohacking My Health, the Results Are Incredible

AVALON X SUPPLEMENTS: Get 10% Off avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: I have a huge question for you, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I've asked you this before.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if I have.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Are you still packed or are you still unpacked?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm totally unpacked.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I haven't asked you. Aren't those the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: You're talking about our luggage?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so this is like a thing in my family. I know I've talked about this on the show before, probably with Cynthia or Gin. We had literally, like, an hour-long conversation one dinner, because somebody was like, “Are you still packed?” And then somebody was like, “No, are you still unpacked?” And they were like, mind blown moment. It's like the same thing, but only if you include the word still. If you say, “Are you packed? Are you unpacked?” Those are different. But if you say, “Are you still packed? Are you still unpacked?” It's the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. So, I am officially unpacked.

Melanie Avalon: You're unpacked. So, you are not still unpacked. And you are not still packed.

Vanessa Spina: Right.

Melanie Avalon: This really bothers me. It really bothers. It bothers me that including the word still makes them the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Right. Right, right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's my word moment for the morning. Okay, so your items are not in your suitcase anymore.

Vanessa Spina: They're all washed, folded, put away, and yeah, I need to do it when I get home. It's like if we have a party or something, I can't go to bed until everything is clean. [chuckles] I just don't want to wake up to a mess or a packed suitcase. Just get it done. No matter what it takes, [laughs] you have to stay up late.

Melanie Avalon: I actually love that moment, like when you get back and you're taking all this stuff out and it takes so much longer than I think it will, as does packing.

Vanessa Spina: It takes so long. It really takes a long time because I figured out it's the micro decisions that you have to make. Because I was like, for years I was like, “Why do I hate packing so much?” And I'm like, “It's because I have to make like 1000 micro decisions of what to take.” And every single thing you put in your suitcase is a micro decision that you're making that you may wear that and then everything you're not taking is also like a micro decision. So, it's like you get decision fatigue. It's just more the mental aspect. But I did something amazing [chuckles] that changed my life after we got back from Denver. We got back and I was like, I've been wanting to do this for so long. And I finally did it and it just leveled up my life so much. So, we got back and I was like, Pete, everything we took to Denver is all the stuff that I like and I wear and everything for summer. Because the winter stuff is like away. Everything that I did not pack, that's in my drawers and in my closet is just there. I don't like--

Melanie Avalon: Did you throw it away?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I put it all in a suitcase. Some of it, I try to donate clothes on a regular basis to charitable causes and I love doing that. But I was like, sometimes you're not fully ready to let it go. But I was like, “Okay, so I'm just going to put it all in a suitcase.” And all the stuff that I wasn't quite ready to, I just put it in a suitcase and I cleared out my drawers. So now when I open my drawers, I just have the stuff that I love. Every time I look in the closet, I just have the stuff that I love and that I wear. And so, when we packed for this trip, it was like 100 times easier because I didn't have to make all those micro decisions. I just took everything in my drawer [laughs] and put it in the suitcase and then took everything out and put it back in there. Life changing. I swear, the last three months have been so much easier to just get dressed and do things because I'm not wading through the drawers, through all the other stuff to find what I want. When I open the drawer, it's just what I want. It's just like mind blowing. But it was amazing and I want to do it again for winter stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, this is crazy. I have a follow-up question and I have a very similar system I've implemented. Question, so this suitcase now that's full of these clothes that you don't wear, are you going to take that suitcase to goodwill or do you have goodwill?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, we basically give it to our church here that helps mostly migrants and victims of sex trafficking. So, it's great because it's like all women's clothes. And what I do is I know the stuff that I want to get rid of right away. But sometimes you're not ready to let go of something because it has, like, sentimental value. If you had it for a long time or you're just like, I might wear this sometimes. So that's the stuff that I put in the suitcase. And then if I don't think about it or use it, like, usually six months or a year later, I open it up again, and then I look through if there's a couple of things that I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, I haven't seen this in so long. I can't wait to wear it.” I'll wear it again. But mostly everything is like, no, it's in there for a reason. I purchased it and I kept it in my closet or my drawers out of guilt because I spent money on it.

So, I felt like I had to keep it. But I don't actually wear it. I don't want to wear it. It's been in the suitcase for a year, so now it's ready to go to the final stage, which is donation. So, I think it just helps with that stuff that you're just not fully ready to let go of. But I'm ruthless. Usually when it comes to clothes, I'm like, I haven't worn that in six months to a year. It's gone. I know that's not as easy for everyone. Like, Pete is with clothes he has a really hard time getting rid of stuff, so I kind of have to do it sometimes for him. But I find that that intermediate step can help if you're struggling to just let go of things, especially if they have some kind of emotional value or something.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. We have such a similar system. So, one I have contemplated doing the thing you mentioned where you get back and you had packed the stuff you really loved, but I can't do that. I'm not at that point. So, kudos to you. I do something very similar, which is, I have a big black trash bag. Actually, I have a hamper. Oh, I use a hamper. Okay, so I have a hamper in my closet and it's the throwaway hamper. And then I have a trash bag in it and I try to every day-- Did I tell you this? Do my throw something away mantra.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's a great way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I say in my head, “Throw something away every day. Throw something away every day.” And then I walk around the apartment, and I try to take one piece of clothing and put it into the bag, and I try to actually just throw something else away into the trash, something from the apartment, unless it's donatable. And then I wait until that fills up that hamper, and then I take the bag to goodwill, and I do the same thing you did, where it's like, if I haven't thought about. If I think about it and I try to find it, I can go dig through and find it, but I haven't done that yet. And then also something you can tell yourself is like, “Okay, let's say that there's one outfit that you regret throwing away. It's so worth it to regret that one outfit and throw away all that other stuff.” It's just worth it because it feels so good. Like you said to, “Ooh, it feels nice.”

Vanessa Spina: I think I've had one moment where I was like, “Oh, I missed that thing that I donated or got rid of,” but it's like one out of so many other things. Like you said, “It's just not worth it.” And it feels amazing to declutter. I try to be as minimalist as possible. It's getting more challenging [chuckles] as we expand our family, but I still try to be as minimalist as possible. And it is such a game changing thing, like, for your mental performance, for your productivity, and just for how good it feels. I think one of the reasons we feel so good when we're at a hotel is because you have such few things. Like, you just have the essentials and it feels so good. And as women, we in particular can't relax unless our space is organized and clean, or else everything talks to us. Like, the pillow talks to us, the blanket, the throws. like, straighten me, pick me up. Everything talks to us. [laughs] So when you're in an empty room or a really minimalist or clean organized room, you can just fully focus and nothing talks to you and all the noise is gone I find.

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. I was reading a study about that, actually, because I've noticed that if I get really stressed or overwhelmed with work, I will have to like-- everything has to be organized all of a sudden. And it's not because I'm procrastinating. It's because I literally, all of a sudden, cannot handle things not being straightened up. And there's some, wait, is that nesting as well also? I feel like they gave some bird mother term to it, which the other day, Vanessa texted me. She was like, “I have to come back and nest.” And I was like, “What is that?” [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Because there was a little nest emoji with, like, three blue eggs, like the Robin eggs.

Melanie Avalon: I’ve never seen that emoji before. [laughs] It's got, like, the little blue egg in it.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Yeah. I was like, the holidays, our baby moon has been incredible, beautiful, like, everything I wanted. But I'm feeling restless, like, I need to go home and nest, and that is basically, like, I need to get our space ready.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I think that is maybe the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It happens usually in the, like, specially, in the third trimester, which I'm now in, where you're like a bird, like, mama bird fluttering its wings around. You're just like, “I need to make this place clean.” Suddenly, everything has to be clean, organized, and you have to get everything ready. Like, the nursery, everything becomes priority number one. It was actually taking away from my enjoyment being away, because I was like, “I need to be home and fixing stuff.” And I was talking to Pete about it because I need to nest. He was like, “Okay, [laughs] I'm really enjoying being here, but I need to be home now.” So, our biological instincts are really powerful and amazing, but, yeah, that's the nesting.

Melanie Avalon: Is it, like an ongoing thing, the nesting experience? Like, are you nesting for a month until the baby comes?

Vanessa Spina: It's pretty much going to be from now until baby comes. And it's been interesting having other girlfriends go through it too and being pregnant at the same time as other friends, because we'll be going for a walk and getting coffee and talking, and they're like, “My apartment is so dirty. [laughs] I need to clean everything.” And it's just like this primal urge that everything needs to be clean. Like you find yourself, I was cleaning when you open the freezer and on the freezer door, there's like, this plastic whatever, and then there's, like, these folds. I was cleaning inside the folds because [laughs] I was like, “They're not clean enough.” It's another level of clean freaking or whatever.

Melanie Avalon: I do think they use the word nest in that study. I read about when you're stressed and you have to clean--

Vanessa Spina: Like a stressed bird. Just like, I need to make my nest. Yeah. That's so funny. I love that you read a study on it.

Melanie Avalon: I did. I was also reading, I think, yesterday about cowbirds. Are you familiar with these?

Vanessa Spina: No.

Melanie Avalon: Apparently. Where was I reading this? I think it was actually talking something about narcissism. Apparently, these birds, they know that other birds assume that the eggs in their nest are their own, so they lay their eggs in other birds’ nests. They, like, outsource that [laughs] because they're like, they’ll deal. [laughs] They'll assume. I do think it was, like, something about narcissism and we literally-- Oh, yeah. I think it was in Peter Attia? Was it in Peter Attia’s book? I don't know. I'm all over the place. It was something about how we're so consumed and we can only see our own perspective of the world. And cowbirds know this. I don't know if they actually think about this when they're laying the eggs, but yeah.

Vanessa Spina: That's really funny. So, they outsource it that the other bird will raise it because it's so preoccupied with itself that it doesn't realize it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So much we can learn from the animal kingdom.

Vanessa Spina: That's fascinating. That's really fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: I know. One last little thing. Okay, so you've been, like, crazily cleaning for hours. Do you know what I've been doing for hours?

Vanessa Spina: What?

Melanie Avalon: This will be way-- by the time this comes out, this will be way in the past, but the Taylor Swift Eras movie is coming out.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I can't wait too.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you're seeing it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean when I can, I'd love to. Yeah. I didn't go to the concert, so for me, it's going to be like.

Melanie Avalon: Is it going to come out in Prague?

Vanessa Spina: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Wait, is it going to theaters first? I just assumed it was going to be on Netflix.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. No, no, no, this is a theater experience.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I'll have to go to that.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure it'll come out here like every movie comes out here, just like it does in North America.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it comes out this weekend.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I got to find out when it's coming out.

Melanie Avalon: So, I counted up how many hours I've spent. I think I've spent 10 hours talking about things that you think, like, the unpacking will not take that long. I was like, “Oh, it will not take that long to individually glue sequins to my Taylor Swift bodysuit, incorrect assumption.” I have spent about 10 hours gluing sequins to my outfit while listening to audiobooks prepping the show. It's epic, my costume.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I can't wait to see a picture.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to dress up. I'm going to be T Swift in the flesh. So, yes. I love projects like crafting. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: It's therapeutic.

Vanessa Spina: I love Michaels. I wish that's the one thing actually they don't have here. Makes me sad.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man or Hobby Lobby.

Vanessa Spina: They don't have it here? No. I used to go there a lot. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Although I went to Michaels, and I was like, “I need sequins.” And he was like, “What are sequins?” And I was like, “Am I at Hobby Lobby? Where am I?”

Vanessa Spina: Pretty sure they have, like, an aisle of sequins.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I had to go rogue and find them myself. I wish you were here. We could go together.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that would be amazing. That would seriously be amazing. I'm trying to figure out a Halloween costume, because we have a Halloween party coming up, and I have not thought about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: Could be Taylor Swift.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] I think I need to find something coordinated for Luca and maybe something that's good for pregnancy. You know fun like--

Melanie Avalon: What if you're, like, Humpty Dumpty?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I was saying pumpkin. A pumpkin is, like, the cutest baby costume ever. I was like, I think Lucas a little bit too big now, so maybe he could be a two-two. You know, he really likes Thomas, Thomas the Tank Engine and all that. Like, maybe he could be a Thomas. But, yeah, I'm thinking I got to find something that unifies-- a unifying theme and I don't have time for that right now. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You can outsource that to me. I'll think about it for you and then I'll report back.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I think I was telling you we wanted to do last year like Prince Charming.

Melanie Avalon: What if you do Alice in Wonderland?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: There're so many characters in that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. You know, it's so much easier for that kind of stuff in North America because you can just go to any costume store, and they'll have a family set or, like, a Target or something. But here it's more like Amazon. So, yeah, maybe this weekend I'll spend some time on it [laughs] if my nesting gives me a break from everything else.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe you could do something with the nesting. Maybe you could be a bird.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe you could all be birds. Different, different birds.

Vanessa Spina: He would love that. Oh, my gosh. He loves birds.

Melanie Avalon: You could be a flamingo, like, all pink.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I need to find something funny that has a big belly.

Melanie Avalon: A hummingbird. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait what's a real-- A peacock, a peacock.

Vanessa Spina: I love how excited you are.

Melanie Avalon: Then you could do, like, rainbow. Oh, wait, but they're male so.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, Pete would have to be peacock. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Pete can be the peacock. You could be the flamingo. Luca can be a penguin.

Vanessa Spina: We'll workshop it.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. To start things off, this is actually some feedback I got on Instagram. So, I asked her if I could include it because I thought it was just such a lovely little story. So, this was from Lauren. She messaged me and she said that she did her first half fasted marathon. She said, “Just wanted to say thank you for all the education because it gave me the confidence to trust my intuition and go for it. I used to have a terrible relationship with food and hate my body. Now I have a great relationship with food and love what it can do. I'm so happy with a sub two time. It was really interesting feeling my body switch into ketosis around Mile Nine as so many other runners started to flag. Fasting is such a superpower. We need everyone to know.” Then she put the little emoji with the heart eyes and she said, “You are a legend” with a little smiley face, XOX.

So, thank you so much for reporting back. Lauren. First of all, I'm thrilled that you have had that mindset shift surrounding your relationship with food. And it's really exciting because you know, I'm not a marathon runner. I really like hearing from listeners who are implementing fasting with athletic endeavors like that and how it goes and it's so cool about. that really must feel like a superpower to switch into ketosis when people are starting to hit the wall. Any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I'm always telling people that if you're doing, usually long-distance running, that is the perfect exercise for being fat fueled because it is 60% to 70% of your VO2 max. You can just be fueled from fat. And I have so many athletes who are out there just killing it, reporting back to me that they're doing keto and people just don't believe them and they're setting new records. They're using it as such a competitive edge and people call it bonking when you hit the wall and it's because you run out of glycogen. But if you're running off of fat, then you're never going to hit that wall. It's just the perfect exercise for that, as long as you stay well hydrated using electrolytes like LMNT or something, because you definitely want to maintain your hydration and all that.

But yeah, that's so cool that you actually felt your body switching into ketosis and other people were starting to flag. It happened to me once with Pete and my father-in-law, we were on this crazy hike that he said was only going to be an hour or two and it was like four hours and it was in Utah and it was so hot. No one else was around because were like insane to be doing this. And at the end they started slowing down. But I had LMNT with me and I just ate protein when we had our snack and I had LMNT and I was like busting it out of there. I was like, [chuckles] I couldn't even see them anymore. I was going so fast and they both were like just dying in the heat. And my father-in-law still talks about that hike. He's like, “I don't understand what was going on, but you were gone, you were like turbo mode and were about to pass out.” [laughs] So, yeah, it's being fat fueled. It's amazing. It is a superpower.

Melanie Avalon: It is a superpower. And that sounds so miserable. Oh, my goodness. Which actually is going to relate to my answer for the next question. Have you done a marathon or a half marathon?

Vanessa Spina: It's not my thing. No.

Melanie Avalon: Not my thing either.

Vanessa Spina: I'm like, “I'll cheer you on and everything from the sidelines.”

Melanie Avalon: I won't even cheer you on. [laughs] Does that require sitting outside [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Standing for a long time? Yeah. I have a really good friend whose husband does them a lot. So, I'm like, “Go, Cody, you're killing it.” But I just have no interest at all, at all, negative interest. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'll throw the like welcome, the celebration party.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Nice.

Melanie Avalon: Indoors at the end.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's just not appealing for me, but I know it is appealing to lots of people.

Melanie Avalon: And like I said, it relates to my answer for the next question, which I'll let you read it, but I'll set it up so that the context is I had asked for questions in the Facebook group IF Biohackers for Terry Wahls. Dr. Terry Wahls, who I interviewed this past week, actually, I think, or the week before. She is so great. I love her. She's just so inspiring, because you've interviewed her, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So inspiring.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So definitely listeners check that out. I think it's-- yeah, it should have already aired by now. She almost started crying on the show. It was very, very touching when she was telling her story. So, yes, we talked all about her studies on diet, including fasting for multiple sclerosis specifically, but it applies to autoimmune conditions as well. So, this question we did not get to and I thought it was a good question for our show, actually. So, would you like to read it?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. So, Annie from Facebook asks, “How can we live a “normal life” when we are always inside an expensive bubble full of products and denials that most take for granted? Don't eat this or that. Not that water. Oh, wait. Yes, that water, but not too much. No Wi-Fi, no gluten, no fortified anything? No, no, no and take tons of supplements and expensive. Doctors and treatments yet we are expected to live a stress-free life this way. So, we just accept and try. But does anybody really get better and happy in this bubble?”

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I loved this question also, I just want to say, Vanessa, I like how you read question.

Vanessa Spina: Aw. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because you read that with character. I felt like Annie was here with us. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's awesome. I try add some dramatic flair.

Melanie Avalon: It was good. I liked it. I feel like it's your theater background coming out.

Vanessa Spina: I know. I feel like, I'm auditioning or something--

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: We are like reading sides here constantly. [laughter ]It's interesting because it's, like, the blend because you don't want to go full out character mode you know but you tend-- [laughter] I literally think about this when I'm reading questions. I'm like, “You got to be objective and narrator, but also have some character. You've nailed it.” You've got the talent.

Vanessa Spina: Did I get the part? [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: You got the part. [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Can't wait to tell my mom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so good. Okay. I can't, I'm going to start crying again from laughing. Thank you for the question, Annie. I have so many thoughts about this. I know this is something I know I've experienced this. I know so many people experience this. And Annie was talking about it in relation to autoimmune conditions, but it's also something I just feel a lot of people in the health sphere, people on diets, even people doing fasting, like, people who are making choices about what they like, she said, about what they do or don't eat, supplements, foods, doctors, treatments, a lot of people are constantly making these decisions for their life and it can feel restrictive. And then, in addition, some people come from a baseline of feeling great without doing or feeling okay at least without doing this, and then they do this and they just feel better, whereas some people feel really awful if they don't do these things. And then doing this helps them feel better.

So, there're layers of, I think, a feeling of necessity surrounding it. I'll start with what she said at the end, which is, “But does anybody really get better and happy in this bubble?" So, I would encourage you, Annie, to think about what you mean by happiness. First of all, what you mean by happiness and where that happiness comes from and what that means. Because if happiness, this is all just my thoughts, my esoteric thoughts, but to me happiness is a transitory temporal state of feelings that can come and go and that's okay. And if that's the end goal, if happiness is the end goal, you're probably not going to find it, because it's not something-- it really, really does matter on how you define it though. It's a lot of semantics, actually yesterday I interviewed the creators of the Forks Over Knives series, like documentary, and then all the books that go with it, they have a new book called Wellness to Wonderful, which is really good. It's about a full lifestyle approach to health and wellness. We actually talked about this because their barometer is, is life wonderful? And we talked about the difference between wonderful versus happiness and how feeling like your life is wonderful and you are content and satisfied is different than like a transitory state of happiness.

First of all, I contemplate what you mean by happy and where is that found and how it relates to what we were talking about a second ago with Vanessa, is stress and happiness and suffering and pain, and what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy is so relative. So, like, racing literally sounds like the most awful experience to me. Like, you could not pay me. And like I said, even just being outside watching people race is not pleasant to me. Some people love it. They love it. What that says to me or something like traffic. There are some people, like my mom, she cannot stand traffic. Like when we are in traffic, she just is so upset. Whereas when I'm in traffic, I'm like, “Oh, this is great. I can listen to more podcasts.” I really don't mind it. I think it's like a fun time. So, I think the point of that is that literally, any situation that you're in, somebody could enjoy it and somebody could not. So, any experience you're in is relative. You decide how it affects you on a deeper emotional level, and it's completely okay to have. And we talked about this yesterday in the interview, which I'll put a link to in the show notes. I think the show notes for it are going to be melanieavalon.com/wellnesstowonderful probably.

So, we talked about how even feelings, we'll say, like, negative feelings and positive feelings, but really, they're just pleasant and unpleasant. Like, there's no good or bad or right or wrong. They just are. Or it's like one of my favorite authors or I actually really recommend reading Amy Johnson's book Just a thought. It's so cute. It's like this really small little book. It's super short. It has an endorsement from me in it, which is very exciting, right alongside, like, Deepak Chopra. But in that book, she talks about the weather and how there's the sky and how you are the sky and the weather is your experiences and what you're going through. And the weather can be so many different things and it can be crazy and it can be, “bad, like a thunderstorm or it can be a clear sky, but either way, there's actually a clear sky behind that.” Like, you don't change. So, defining yourself and your happiness by your experiences is not sustainable for lifetime satisfaction. And I know that's a lot of words. So, it's like, “How do you do this?” I mean that’s were like, I find so much value in seeing a therapist every week, reading books about this. A lot of people benefit from meditation, prayer.

So, I would try to have a sort of mindset shift surrounding all of that. And then as far as the actual things you're doing, like feeling like you have to-- like Vanessa was so eloquently reading with a slight inflection of character, you know, don't drink this water, drink a little bit of this water, except maybe not, like all of that stuff. Remember that, that is your choice, I think having agency in your own life is one of the most empowering things ever. I'm all about-- And I'm not saying that she's doing this, but I think we live in an epidemic of victimhood today where we think we're a victim of everything, of our own circumstances, of the world, when really, it's really empowering to have agency. So, all these choices that you're making, if you can reframe them as they are, I mean, presumably that's why you're making them. Hopefully, you are making the choices that help make you feel better and that is your choice.

And you actually don't have to do any of them. I think that's freeing to know, like, you are the person in control here. You're choosing-- you don't have to do anything. You are choosing to do things because they make you feel better. And even for me, because if you look at the way I eat and the things I do, it looks really restrictive. I am so happy doing it. It makes me so happy to use that word, which has problematic semantics surrounding it. But I feel really good in the dietary choices that I make because I have found the foods that I love. I think that's important. Making sure that within this paradigm of these gluten, not gluten foods you can and can't eat, finding the foods that you really do love, I think that's really important because you can definitely do that. There are delicious foods and your tastebuds will change. So, I think paying attention to that, defining a diet that you do love and telling yourself that you have agency, making those decisions and that it's okay to not feel okay. Like, that's okay.

And it's also okay if you do want to have a day where you're just like, want to lament. And I mean, I don't want to say like a pity party, but that's okay too, if you want to have those moments as well have those moments. But hopefully the ongoing theme can be one of agency and empowerment. And for the question of, does anybody ever really get better? Again, I think it's a matter of what do we mean by better? Because everybody's always on a spectrum of health. So, you can monitor that with how you’re reacting to things and your health markers and all of that. But that's always going to be the spectrum. So, I wouldn't even make that the end goal. I would really work on the mental and the emotional wellness behind it. That was very long. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I have so many thoughts on this. [chuckles] The first one, I mean, just as a blanket overview is like, if doing this stuff doesn't make you happy and doesn't lower your stress, makes you more stressed, then I think that's a big indicator. Whereas you and I, I talk to you most days, like every day, you're always happy. I feel like I'm always happy too because it does make us happy. It's not like you're happy one day and another day you're like, really--you're always happy when I talk to you. I feel like I am too. This lifestyle that we've chosen and following the science and biohacking and everything, for me it has tremendously improved my overall state. And it's given me access to be able to work on the other stuff, the other deeper stuff, like doing the deeper work. One of my favorite quotes is, I don't know if I'm going to say it properly, but it's sort of like, “If you do the hard stuff, then life gets really easy whereas if you take the easy way out, then life is always hard.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's a good one.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] It's one of my favorites and I live by it because sometimes the stuff that we do, just like you said in your question, Annie, sometimes the stuff that we, does feel hard. But at the end of the day, if it does make life easier for you, then I think it's worth it. Whereas taking the easy way out sometimes feels easy in the moment, but not doing the hard work it can lead to making life harder. And it applies to so many different aspects of life, whether it's like health or business or work or relationships. It applies to everything. So sometimes I find you have to work and put that work in and then life gets really easy and really amazing. One example I could say is learning all of this stuff, doing all of this stuff has made me go from being obsessed and addicted to food and feeling really unempowered and unhappy and trapped in my body to feeling effortlessly lean. I don't have to think about, really food much at all anymore. I just eat to live. And I enjoy my meals when I eat them. But I have all this energy freed up now to go and live all my dreams and take that energy to feeling good, being in a good state, and then being able to work on the other stuff. Like you brought up about that analogy of the sky. You know, one of my favorite, favorite authors, aside from Deepak. I love him, Deepak Chopra-

Melanie Avalon: Who? I don't know his name.

Vanessa Spina: -he's amazing, is Michael Singer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, we talked about-- I forgot, we both-- We love this book. Yes.

Vanessa Spina: Oh. The Untethered Soul, I feel like it was a culmination of every book I've read on meditation and mindset and work and everything. And I just listened to his new podcast while we’re in Greece and it was just so amazing. One of the things he talked about is how a lot of us are just stuck in this worry stack where it's like a stack of books and you're just worried about, say, the top item on your list. And then once you figure that out, then you just go to the next one on your worry stack and you worry about that. And it's just like no matter what you do, whenever you solve whatever problem, you're just going from one worry to another. Whereas if you just let go of all of that, and he gave this analogy of, like, a kid who knows that he's got a shot coming up, that he has to have a school mandatory vaccine or something. And he spends two weeks dreading the shot and worrying about it. Whereas the actual shot is like 2 seconds. I had one yesterday, [chuckles] intramuscular injection for pregnancy. The actual shot was like not even 5 seconds, like when the needle goes in everything.

But why spend all of that time worrying and anticipating the things that could go wrong in life when you could just let go of all of that and just fully experience life? And you're going to have fear in your heart. You're going to face your own heart and the fears that you have in it and everything. [chuckles] I know I'm growing really deep here, but that's all that self-work that is about mindset. And it comes through doing meditation, reading books about that inner monologue and the inner voice and the inner narrative, how you talk to yourself and what you're focusing on. Like, what state are you in right now? Are you concerned right now? Are you worrying right now? Or are you taking a moment to be mindful and set a positive intention for the day? Spend some time focusing on gratitude, shifting out of a fearful or worried state, stress state. Stress is just another word for fear. So, a lot of us are in a fearful state a lot of the time and there are things that we can do to feel good. So, it really comes down to, “Does this stuff make you feel happier?”

Like you have to do a self-assessment, like you said, Melanie, and be like, “Does this stuff make me feel better or does it just stress me out?” And if it just stresses you out, then it's not worth it. It's not worth doing. If, on the other hand, it does make you feel empowered and it is giving you tangible results, you're seeing benefits in your health and your physique and your energy levels, if you are feeling and seeing those benefits, then it's worth it for you. But you really have to take that assessment and see if this stuff is helping you. And I'm going to say, from your question, sounds like it's not making you very happy to do this stuff. Maybe you're just having a bad day. Maybe you're just feeling overwhelmed, because I know it can be overwhelming. Every day it seems like there's a new thing, there's a new supplement or there's deuterium depleted water, and there's all this stuff. And you have to kind of say, like, “I can't do all of this stuff, but I can do one thing and I can focus on one thing.” And that's a really important concept, I think, when it comes to all of this and biohacking is, you really want to do one thing at a time and really integrate that thing.

Like, if you want to get into cold exposure, focus on cold exposure and just adding in that one thing. But if you try to add in cold exposure, red light therapy and AI Bike and this new kind of fasting and blue light blocking glasses and you're adding in everything at the same time and trying to drink the deuterium depleted water, it's going to feel overwhelming. So, I really suggest just slow things down. You don't have to do everything. You can just do one thing at a time, focus on that thing, and that's how you're going to be able to assess each thing that you try. Like, does this one hack actually improve my life? Whereas if you're doing all of them at once, it's going to be hard to assess individually each thing. So, I think that's what I would say.

Melanie Avalon: I loved that so much. I love talking about this with you. Follow up thoughts. One, I forgot that we both loved Michael Singer so much. I think we talked about that like a while ago.

Vanessa Spina: A long time ago. Yeah. He's just so, so incredible. And he just released the new season of his podcast, which is like every episode is 45 minutes to an hour and it's just the best thing ever, I think. It's called The Untethered Soul, Michael Singer Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the podcast is called that?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Each season is only like four or five episodes, but it's incredible. You want to listen to each one over and over again. But the book, yeah, The Untethered Soul, itself is incredible. And then the second book, also amazing. \

Melanie Avalon: When did he release that podcast you said?

Vanessa Spina: So this one just came out a few weeks ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like brand new. He didn't have a prior season.

Vanessa Spina: And then there was a season 1, which I think came out like a year or two ago. And then he also has this course, which is like The Untethered Soul, which I did and Pete did a little bit with me. And it's a video course, but it's very similar to the podcast episodes, except it also has the video component to it. But the podcast this season is just mind blowing. It's amazing. So, I guess it's kind of like you want to be dedicating some percentage of your time or life to spending it on the mindset and mindfulness, consciousness, meditation, all of that really helps. I think it's something that you don't just do it once. It's something that you have to actively maintain.

You have to be reading books on a regular basis about it, doing meditation on a regular basis, putting in that work that makes life easy. You have to put in the time to do it. But I do find that the stuff that we do on the health and nutrition side, it helps to provide clarity, because for me, with food and everything, it generated so much noise in my life, and especially fixating on my physique and just food in general and being obsessed with food, once I figured out some of these concepts that we talk about a lot, like protein makes you really satisfied, so you don't have to think about food anymore. The noise just fell away. And then I was able to focus more on these other things, these other aspects as well. So, they kind of go hand in hand, I think.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, to that point. So, two thoughts. One, I really like what you said about evaluating what is and isn't working, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But in the Newsweek piece that I got to write, which was about my personal diet history and a little bit of my biohacking journey, the way I ended that, which is what I feel very strongly about, is that one of the most freeing things in my personal, “biohacking journey” was when I did have the realization that I don't have to do all these things. I was in this world where I was like, “I have to do all of this stuff.” I was like, the picture I can see in my head is me religiously clinging to these diet tips and techniques and biohacking things because I thought they were saving me. And that was really stressful honestly. And when I had the epiphany that, “Oh, I actually don't have to do any of this, and I can just do what makes me feel better and it can be additive, that was really freeing.” So, I think getting out of this overwhelming mindset of having to do all the things, you can still do all the things, but just that mindset of having to do them and feeling trapped by them is so different than choosing to do them. So, I like what Vanessa was saying about kind of taking stock of what you are doing and what is benefiting you and what's not and letting go of what is not benefiting you.

The second thing I was going to say was, no I forgot. I will say though, for her part about how can we live a normal life? So that's another thing where it's semantics, like, “What is normal?” Oh, I remembered, first of all, you get to decide what is normal and what you want your life to be. I don't see any reason to have to adapt to what society calls normal. The mosaic of all the people in the world is what makes society so interesting in my opinion. And then last comment. So, Vanessa was commenting on how she and I are often very happy, which is very true. I just want to clarify that I still have. Okay, well, first of all, when I was reading that Michael Singer book for the first time, The Untethered Soul, that was in my, like, what I call my dark time, I probably still seemed happy to other people. But even during that-- that's when I was really having a lot of health struggles and challenges. I still saw it as separate from who I was.

So, it never really colored my thoughts about the world and myself and my happiness. And even today, I'm so grateful and I really enjoy life, and I really do feel happy the majority of the time. And I can still feel incandescently happy while having very stressful things happening that I'm not enjoying, that are not fun. And those can exist simultaneously pretty easily for me. Like, even when really bad things happen, either in relationships or with business or work or stress, it's all separate to me. It's just what I'm experiencing at that moment. So, I'm still happy.

Vanessa Spina: I love everything that you said there. I have to say on the first point, I'm so glad that you said that, because I think a lot of people looking at you or being fans of you from listening to the show for a long time, would just assume that you are doing all the biohacks, that you have all the biohacking devices and you do all the biohacks. So, I think if there's anyone listening to the show who's been inspired by you over the years, it's probably really great for them to hear you say that you don't feel, like, the pressure to do all of them because you are known as, like, top six biohacker in the world. It's great that you don't feel some kind of pressure to do all the things and that you give yourself the grace and the time to just do what feels approachable and accessible and whatever in the time, you don't overwhelm yourself with stuff. So, I love that you said that. And then I also love that you mentioned that you're not necessarily happy all the time. I don't want to project a fake reality either, of course, life is still hard. [laughs]

There're still difficult moments. I sort of was referring to in general, your disposition, and I feel similar, like an overall state or disposition, whereas we both interact with a lot of people. And I always know, like, you're in a high vibe. I feel like I'm often in a high vibe, but we get there intentionally. I every day, set my intentions. I put myself in a state of thankfulness. It doesn't mean that I don't encounter hard or challenging things. I typically like to frame them as challenging because challenges bring out the best in you, but it's more of a disposition, and I feel like we both work at that. And I think, like I was saying it goes hand in hand with the fact that all the stuff that we do on the health and lifestyle also supports that. But the things that you and I find joy in and that support our health and happy mindset or happy disposition may not generate that for other people. It may generate more stress or a feeling that you're not keeping up with everyone else or you're not doing as well. It could generate all kinds of other feelings that I can't speak to. So, it's all about assessing yourself with anything that you do in life, with any job or any activity or anything that you pursue. Does this actually make my life happier? And if it doesn't, then you have to reevaluate.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because with the biohacks, I really came to a similar place. Like, I still do most of the things. My mindset is just completely different surrounding them. And then yeah, commenting just quickly on the perpetual happiness or high vibe thing. Something else from Amy Johnson's book that I really like. She points out that unpleasant experiences that may happen that you don't want to be in, that are happening. Like, when those happen, we think it's all consuming and it's the way it's going to be. And that's all we see when really it literally is going to pass. You don't even have to do anything, and it'll pass. And what I mean by that is bad things can happen, and we think that we have to fix it. It will pass. And the fact that you don't have to even do anything is kind of mind blowing. When things happen to me that I don't like being in that experience of, I literally see myself in it, and I see it as this is like a temporary, transitory thing that I am not enjoying. I'm very open about that. You can accept that I am not enjoying this happening right now, but it's not me. I'm still happy. I'm still great behind it and it'll pass.

Like, the thing that happened two nights ago was when I was working on my Taylor Swift sequin bodysuit and I was trying to get, like, glitter acrylic sparkle stuff to spray on it. So, I bought, like, three different ones. That stuff is so toxic smelling. And one of them, I didn't realize it, but it was broken, so it leaked, and it was everywhere in my apartment. So, my entire apartment was like fumes. I do not do well with fumes. When I was experiencing that, I was like, this is not fun. I am not enjoying this. This is not, um-mm, but I saw it as just something happening to me that would pass. Like, it's not me because I'm good behind it all. So, I hope that helps, Annie. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for your question, Annie. And I hope that this gave you something to think about.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes, let us know. And also, because I'm assuming she has an autoimmune condition, so sending love with all of that, I was thinking we could answer because it relates Laura's question, hers was, “If we had a limited budget, what supplements would you prioritize?” kind of ties in. And then she says, “What makes you happy and grateful.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. Why don't you go first?

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, Laura, she's asking, “If we had a limited budget, what supplements would you prioritize?” And this kind of relates to what we’re both saying before. I definitely had a great epiphany relief moment when I realized I didn't have to be taking all the supplements all the time. That was definitely a potential point of stress for me. And realizing that I'm taking these to help me. If I don't take them, that's okay. And also, yes, like Laura's asking, evaluate what would you prioritize? So, I think, as a baseline, making sure you're getting all of your nutrition is really important. So, looking at your diet, what are you getting all your nutrition and trying to get that from diet, especially, like, limited budget, you can get a lot of nutrition in whole foods and meat and egg yolks. There's a lot of really affordable ways to get nutrition from food. I think it can be hard, even with food, to get enough magnesium from your food. So, I would prioritize a magnesium supplement. It can be hard to get enough vitamin D depending on how much you're outside. So, I would prioritize a vitamin D supplement.

And then again, I think on the supplemental nutrition side of things, those are ones that most people are probably deficient in, and then beyond that, from there, seeing where else you might be deficient. And then beyond that, it’s for me personally, I benefit so much from digestive enzymes and HCL. So that's something for me. So, if you struggle with digestion and those really help, that might be something to prioritize, but that would be a case-by-case basis. When I just step back and think about what I want to say, like fun supplements, like supplement that's not dire because it's not nutrition related or digestion related. There is a reason I made serrapeptase as my first supplement for AvalonX. And it's just because it has such a profound effect on me, on my inflammation, on my sinuses, on so many things. So, I would personally prioritize my serrapeptase. I'll put a link avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide. MD Logic did recently release a vitamin D supplement. It's a capsule supplement. I take a liquid form, but they released a capsule for people who like that, so that's a good option. And then I have a magnesium as well. I have two magnesiums on avalonx.us, digestive supplements I do want to make a line in the future. Right now, I take Pure Encapsulations brand. Yeah. What are your thoughts on supplements, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: So I really don't take that many to begin with. So, I feel like I really prioritize because I find that if you take too many, it gets overwhelming and then you just stop taking them. Like, I've been there so many times. I take magnesium. It's the number one supplement that I travel with. I don't leave home without it. I now take Magnesium 8 by AvalonX every single day. I take it every single night, I give it to friends, I had it with me when we were in Greece. I've been wanting to share this with you, actually, for a while, but being pregnant, you have to be even more careful about the supplements that you take. And I trust your magnesium more than any other out there. So, thank you for making such an incredible supplement. But if I had to choose one, it would be that, honestly. And then magnesium citrate I always take with me when I'm traveling as well, because I feel like sometimes it complements it just to have the extra, but also sometimes when I'm traveling and I'm eating different things, if I don't feel like I'm as regular as I am when I'm at home, it really--

Melanie Avalon: Natural CALM.

Vanessa Spina: --yeah, it's the best. What's it called? Natural Vitality CALM.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And they have a smaller version of it, which is usually I have the big ones at home, but they have the smaller one that's great for travel. I always take with me because it's same with Pete. If he has any issues, just he's like, “Do you have the magnesium citrate?” I'm like, “Yep.” So, it's super helpful. That's, like, my number one. Right now, I'm taking a prenatal and I take prenatal or a multivitamin by Thorne. It's probably the other brand that I trust as much as AvalonX. And I mostly take it because of vitamin C, because I eat so, like, keto carnivore and carnivore-ish. Vitamin C, I think, is something that I would take on its own, but because I'm also pregnant, I just take a prenatal, and it's got everything. But on the days that I eat liver, as you were mentioning, trying to get the nutrients from your diet, then I don't take it because I don't need the folate. It's in the liver.

The other supplement that I love is L-carnitine. I'm fascinated by it. You actually do mostly get it from meat, which is where the word carne comes from. But I found some really interesting research on how it also, it's one of the transporters that helps you be fat fueled. So, it helps shuttle fatty acids into your tissues to be oxidized for fuel into your mitochondria. And so, I always take L-carnitine. For vitamin D I actually take cod liver. Like, I have cod liver in cans. And whenever I make, like, tuna salad for myself or Luca or Pete, I just put some cod livers in there, and it makes it taste extra good, extra rich because it's so fatty. But the cans I get come with cod liver oil. So, I take the oil out and I put that into a jar and I keep that and just use a dropper and put droplets on that. It's basically very similar to what you get with vitamin D drops, but it's actually the pure form. So that's kind of like a hybrid getting it from your food versus supplement. But if I don't have cod liver, then I will take a vitamin D supplement and I try to get in the sun as much as possible.

And my other one, last one is red light, because I really do consider light to be a nutrient. And so many of us are deficient in especially red light. And our mitochondria actually need red light to activate the chromophores or cytochrome c oxidase on the electron transport chain. So, I think that because of our modern lifestyles, we are actually deficient in this nutrient. So, I use red light every day so. I know you do too, although, I just thought it would be fun to include it in there.

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick, one, do you have my NightCap?

Vanessa Spina: I think so, yes, I do. But I've been meaning to ask you about it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, to ask what it does?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I knew the Magnesium 8 would be fine for pregnancy, but I haven't taken the Serrapeptase yet or the NightCap one because I hadn't asked you about those yet. For some reason, the Serrapeptase scares me to take while pregnant. I'll probably wait until after. I'm sure it's safe, but I'll probably wait until after. But, yeah, tell me about the NightCap.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I totally understand the pregnancy concerns. So, the NightCap, it's magnesium threonate, which is a special type of magnesium that crosses the blood brain barrier. So, it's basically the only, I mean, there might be some other types in small amounts, but this magnesium, if you take it will go into your brain and there're a lot of studies on it for memory and mood and rest and relaxation. So, it's a great complement to Magnesium 8 and we made it as a standalone because there was no way we could get the therapeutic amount of magnesium threonate into the Magnesium 8 blend. So yes, we wanted people to have the option to take it as like a brain boost or like relaxation. So, it's great. It should be completely fine for pregnancy. It's just another magnesium essentially.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'll try it. Yeah. So, you take it both with the eight?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, you can take either whenever. I like taking a Magnesium NightCap at night, appropriately enough. But the studies actually usually do a biphasic dosing, like in the morning and evening. So, it won't make you tired per se, but it will help you sleep at night.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, I'm going to try it tonight.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. I've had so much amazing feedback of people.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I was going to say is I've been wanting to take it because I constantly see people saying what a game changer it is.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I'm so happy we're talking. Yeah. So that's at avalonx.us. And I was just going to say really quick, vitamin D. Did you know, do you like mushrooms?

Vanessa Spina: I love them. I have chanterelles in my fridge right now that I just got, I'm obsessed with mushrooms.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, “What is your favorite mushroom?” I know this is not--

Vanessa Spina: Probably, chanterelle. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: This is not important. Stop this train. Stop this train. [laughter] Bring it back. Okay.

Vanessa Spina: I just love because they're not part of the vegetable or fruit. Like, they're their own kingdom. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: They're crazy. And what's it called? The whole network of mushroom land. It expands underneath the ground, and they talk and it's a whole thing. Did you know you can put your mushrooms outside and charge them to fill them up with vitamin D? I just learned this because they produce vitamin D, so if you put them outside. The article I was reading, I have to fact check this, but it said you could get your daily requirements of vitamin D by putting your mushrooms outside for, like, 15 minutes.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. That's so cute.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Charge up your little mushrooms. Oh, it's like Mario Kart.

Vanessa Spina: My mushies.

Melanie Avalon: I love mushrooms. They're so good. They're like umami. They're just ahh, they're so good. I went through, like, a mushroom phase where I was like, “Oh, try all the mushrooms.”

Vanessa Spina: Okay, so what's your favorite? We have to end on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I did go through that phase, like I said. I did really like oyster mushrooms, but I didn't really digest them as well. I just eat every night. Okay, wait, portobello and baby bella, wait, there's ones that are the same. It just has to do with the timeline of their life. That blew my mind. It kind of blew my mind because button mushrooms are white, cremini are brown, okay. These are all the same mushroom. I didn't realize this. So, button mushrooms are white. They're like the toddlers or the babies. Then there's cremini, which are brown. Those are like the teenagers. And then there are portobellos, which are brown and larger and those are the adults. They're all the same mushroom, which is-- so when you go to the store and it's like, they're the same mushroom kind of upsetting. Kind of like the fact that tea leaves are all the same plant that blew my mind. That was really upsetting to me to learn that green tea and black tea are the same thing. I like those that I just mentioned because they're really easy for me to digest in my scallops. It's not very adventurous though.

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I love that we both love mushrooms. All the fungi fans out there will be loving this little bonus segment as well.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Should we answer her question about what makes you happy or grateful.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I mean, you, this podcast, my family, just being alive, the power of the mind and mindset, even just, I'm thankful for thankfulness and how powerful it is to just sit down and write down what you're thankful for in any moment. Because there's always something, no matter what you're going through, there's always something that you can be grateful for. And it gives you just such good vibes. It shifts your state, it's empowering. And it also just moves you up the emotional scale so you feel happier. I love the power of appreciation. I like to go on rampages of appreciation. It's such a powerful, underrated tool, and you can access it any moment and it's so amazing. So, I'm just thankful for everything, for podcasting, for the Internet we can talk right now, technology, for mushroom. [laughs] What about you? I could go on for another hour, so I'm going to stop.

Melanie Avalon: Same. There're so many things. Don't get me started. Well, yes. I'm so grateful for you and this podcast. It's just so wonderful. Every time I text Vanessa, I'm just like, so happy, so grateful.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, for listeners. Sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, listeners. Oh, yes. Oh, we're so grateful for the listeners. Something that I think about a lot. I am so grateful that my job and what I do in life is what I love. I am so grateful that what I get to do essentially every second of my life is my work. Not that I'm working my whole life, but my work is my love and my joy. I'm not having to clock in somewhere I don't want to be. I get to do what I love and I get to interact with so many people and share it with other people. I'm just so, so, so grateful for that. I can't even express enough. And then just all the things, like you said, “I could just go on and on and on.” And my relationships, my family, all the people in my life, I just really, really treasure. So red light. I'm holding a red-light thing in my hand right now. So many things. Okay. On that note, [laughter] this was like the mindset episode for listeners.

These show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 345. It will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions by emailing questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Just feeling so much thankfulness. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know. All gratitude.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for that wonderful question.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Thank you, Laura. All right, well, this has been wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Talk to you.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Oct 01

Episode 337: Special Guest Rebecca Rudisch, Balanced Dietary Choices For Animals, Pet Nutrition, Whole Food Diets, Preventable Illnesses, Entrepreneurship, Women In Business, Health Journeys, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #165 - Dr. Karen Becker

Welcome to Episode 337 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Visit Nutrisense.Com/Ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

YUMMERS: Co-Founded By Antoni Porowski And Jonathan Van Ness, Yummers Provides Premium-Quality, Tasty, Healthy “Gourmet” And “Functional" Mix-Ins To Support The Utmost Health Of Your Pet! Yummers Uses Premium-Grade Animal Proteins, Real Fruits And Veggies, And Each Ingredient Is Processed Separately From One Another To Maximize Flavor And Nutritional Value. Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At Yummerspets.Com/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

NUTRISENSE: Visit Nutrisense.Com/Ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

rebecca's back story

health challenges

getting into IF

snacking all day

getting the protein in and muscle building

Creating yummers

pet food nutrition

using real food

the yummers toppers

sourcing and quality

distribution

being a woman in business

work-life balance

working culture

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 337 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 337 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here with a very special guest today. I have been looking forward to this for so, so long. Listeners, okay, so the backstory on today's episode probably it was a while ago, over maybe a year and a half ago, I'm not even sure at this point. A fabulous listener of the show, Rebecca Rudisch, reached out to me via email. Now, I'm just trying to remember the origin story of all of this. I think she reached out about the topic of today's conversation, which is her incredible company, Yummers, which they make gourmet, pet food toppers as well as a new line of dog food. She reached out about just how she was a listener of the show and how she had this company and how she was all into the health of our pets.

I know we talk a lot about health of humans on this show, but very rarely do we dive into what we're actually feeding our pets. Rebecca and I just hit it off right away. She felt like an instant friend that I had known for years. I really do feel like that. And on top of that, she's pretty much one of the most inspiring people I think I've ever met. She is a role model for being a strong, entrepreneur woman who has done so many things. Her resume is just absolutely astounding. So, I knew we had to have her on the show for so many things to talk about. A, talk about how she integrates fasting into her life, how she does biohacking, health, diet, and fitness while being this awesome career-oriented woman, doing her companies, being a female COO.

Also, to talk about Yummers and the tragic situation of feeding our pets conventional pet food today and how Yummers is working to change that. Oh, and by the way, if listeners are fans of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Rebecca actually co-founded that company with Antoni Porowski and JVN from that show, so you guys may be familiar with them. I'm just so excited about this. I have so many things to talk about. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

Rebecca Rudisch: Oh, my gosh, I'm so honored. You were way too kind in that introduction. I have been waiting for this for a long time too and it's really fun to be here. You're right, when you come to the origin story, you're totally right. You happen to be talking about your mom's cats on one of the IF podcast episodes. I immediately, just for whatever reason, knew I had to reach out to you. I will tell you I've never done that with anybody before. So, I think we were destined to be friends, and I'm really really thrilled to be here today.

Melanie Avalon: I still remember reading your first email and I was so intrigued. I was like, “Who is this woman?” [chuckles] We just immediately became friends. You just understand all the things. I'm not kidding, Rebecca, I literally, when I am talking about you to anybody, I use you as the example. I'm like, “She is the most inspiring woman, I think, that I know personally,” and I am not-- I am not making that up. That is how I introduce you to people. [laughs] So, speaking of, there are so many things I want to talk to you about, but to introduce you to our audience, your personal story, because I know you went through your own health issues and your own things, and there're so many different ways I could phrase this. Have you always wanted to be an entrepreneur, work with different companies that you've worked with? How did your health journey play into that and ultimately what led you to founding Yummers?

Rebecca Rudisch: Yeah, I mean, it's a wild story and I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was younger. And just in terms of my background, I grew up in the Midwest to a very blue-collar family of very hardworking people, and I had no idea what it meant to be an entrepreneur. I worked a lot during high school and college, and I put myself through college and worked in a retail store, and I never dreamed that I would have the kind of life that I have now, and I didn't even know what that meant. But you're right, I did find my way through a lot of different challenges. So, like I said, I grew up in the Midwest, I went to college, I was really lucky and out of undergrad, I got a fabulous job in management consulting, and I happened to work in a retail store when I was putting myself through school, as I said.

I got scooped up into the retail practice with what was then Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, and it really set my career up. I loved it. I loved what I did and had a chance to work on a lot of really interesting things and all of that made me realize that I wanted to run a business. In the retail industry what that means is you go into a merchandising career. I started my career in merchandising with Target, was recruited to go work for Target and my health and wellness and really my CPG and food background really started there. At Target, I ran a bunch of businesses including the snacks and beverages business. I ran electronics and entertainment and my last job there I ran everything that Target calls healthcare which includes over-the-counter products and vitamins and supplements but also pharmacy, optical and clinics. I definitely had a strong interest in health and wellness much before that. But that really set me up to be the person at Target who was a spokesperson for everything health and wellness which was really an honor.

At the same time during my time at Target I was also going through a little bit of a health journey. I don't think I'll ever really know exactly what happened but I just call it my meltdown where I really started to have a lot of struggles with fatigue and a lot of actually numbness and tingling and my limbs and just very strange symptoms. At the end of it all, I was in intense pain. I had horrible back pain to the point of really not even being able to walk around the block and I was like 29 years old. It was awful. I was really fortunate that I started seeking out alternative care and it wasn't for lack of trying the traditional western medicine route, but I think a lot of people on this podcast can probably empathize that sometimes you don't get the answers that you really need through that process.

So, I found a chiropractor and an acupuncturist and I changed my diet and I eliminated gluten and dairy and a whole bunch of other things and I was really lucky that all of that really helped and made a dent. At some point, I got a diagnosis for Lyme disease. I'm not sure if I had it or not, it's really hard to tell, probably at some point I did. But I think all of that to say for the past almost 20 years I've really been able to manage a lot of things with just living better. I'm sure that's why at some point I found the IF Podcast because I'm always looking for ways to make myself healthier and to really boost all of the things in my life that are wellness related. But anyway, it was really interesting that when I was going through all of that I was also the health and wellness person at Target, which it felt in some ways very odd.

The other thing that I really learned in my time in merchandising because I went on from Target and believe it or not, from there the health and wellness person went and ran all of merchandising for 7-Eleven, which was also enlightening. Eventually, I would make my way to Petco, which is why I'm now in the pet industry. But one thing I really learned in my time merchandising at Target and 7-Eleven, because I had responsibility for a lot of food and beverage and healthcare products, is that the standards for processed food manufacturing and for all of the food development really are, I think, somewhat troubling. I know you talk about this a lot on both of your podcasts, but the industry that is creating packaged food today and it's creating packaged products, there's a lot there that is really troubling when you're thinking about the health and wellness of people and particularly people like me, who really need to have clean, real food in order to be healthy.

So, I could go on for hours. But a lot of that has really led me to where I am today. And in terms of getting to the point of today, all of that led me to be the Chief Merchandising Officer at one point at Petco, which I have always been in love with pets, but it was the best job ever because I got to live and breathe and eat and sleep nothing but pets all day long and it was awesome. I think has really solidified the fact that pets are one of the things I'm most passionate about personally and in business.

Melanie Avalon: I love all of this so much. See listeners, now you can see why she's so inspiring. Okay, so many things. I'm curious, when you were having your health challenges and hearing how old you were when you were at Target, that is really putting things in perspective for me, which has done so much. So, when you were having your health challenges, did you start feeling better overnight? Was it a slow journey? Was there a paradigm shift in your head that helped you feel better? Because now you and I always talk offline about how I'm so in awe of your travel skills and you're always killing it and traveling all over the world and doing all these things, which sounds very energetically draining to me. So, did you just wake up one day and feel better or was it a really slow process or what did that look like?

Rebecca Rudisch: It was so scary. It was truly, truly frightening. When you're 29 years old and you can't walk around the block, even grocery shopping was so challenging, except at least I could push a cart. And to me, at this point, it just seems surreal that that was my life. But I was terrified. At one point, I think the last doctor I went and I had an MRI on my back, and they couldn't really find anything. A doctor who was doing the best that he could, diagnosed me with something called stiff-person syndrome. I have no idea what this is to this day, but he said that the treatment for it would be to be put on massive amounts of muscle relaxers for the rest of my life, which essentially would have-- I wouldn't have even been able to go to work. It would have been awful and I think, Melanie, you know me at this point, and anybody who knows me, the idea of me not being able to work is terrifying because it's what I get so much passion out of and what I really love to do.

I was absolutely terrified. To this day, I don't even remember exactly how I found this person, but I found a chiropractic neurologist, and I was like, in the darkest of the darkest days. I found a chiropractic neurologist who did a full intake and he said, “I do things really differently.” He used some very different techniques that not only adjusted me physically, but also started to rewire my nervous system. By no means was it overnight, but within a couple of weeks, I was not in complete pain, and within a couple of months, I was walking a little bit better and really starting to see some improvement. It has been a journey though. I could never say that it was overnight. I could never say that I don't have any of the same symptoms that last today. But like I said, 20 years later, literally 20 years later, I get better every day.

Thank you for your callout on my travel skills. I don't know that I'm perfect by any means, but I think I feel incredibly lucky every day that I have never had to completely alter my life or hold myself back from anything because of it. I feel incredibly grateful for that and it's because of a lot of work. I would say that I was biohacking before biohacking was a thing or before I knew it was a thing, because it really is about constant adjustments and knowing my body and knowing what I need at any given time. Sometimes, I will just, I won't be able to go out when I'm out traveling or I will just stay home and take a rest because that's what I know my body needs. But for the most part, I'm all in on life and I do everything. So, I feel incredibly incredibly lucky.

Melanie Avalon: We have so many conversations about the travel, about the rest, the boundaries, and also, you're also a big foodie, so I'm always having you send me pictures of your meals and these crazy places that you go. It's so haunting to hear you say that about the grocery store thing. I had immediate flashbacks. I obviously did not have stiff-person syndrome, that's crazy. I've never heard of that before.

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't even know if it's a thing, to be honest with you, [laughs] but it was terrifying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it sounds like something they just give a label when they can't explain something too. I remember when I was severely anemic and wasn't aware, and that's when I was at my most fatigued, and I would drive to the grocery store and just sit in the car for 15 to 20 minutes trying to get the energy to walk inside the grocery store. It was so scary. I was like, “Am I dying?” So, it's really nice to know that-- not that we all go through really dark things, but it's really nice to be on the flipside. It just provides so much hope, I think, to me and to other people. So, thank you for sharing that. One last question about all of that. I'm curious, when you were in that state, was your work draining to you? Because you just mentioned how, it would be awful if your work was taken away from you, which is how I feel about everything that I do. So, was it draining for you or was it actually energizing for you or were you hiding behind it? What was that relationship like?

Rebecca Rudisch: It's such a good question. I would say it was what kept me going. It was the one place where I felt like I was still thriving. Honestly, I was thriving probably during this timeframe that I was going through everything. I probably got promoted like six or seven times. I kept having more opportunities to grow and advance in my career and do new things. And like I said, it was the one place where I felt whole and I felt like I was me. I felt what I put in was coming back out with a lot of reward and gosh, Melanie, I don't know what I would have done without it. I think we all read about or know people or just have people in our lives who have debilitating illnesses of some sort which keeps them from working or makes them have to go on disability or something like that. To me, that would have been the most devastating thing. I don't even know how I would have handled it, because I think the outlet that work became was just so important for me and it gave me a why, to continue to kind of push on.

Melanie Avalon: That's the exact same way I felt during everything, [chuckles] because you mentioned how you were trying to find answers and started looking into all these health modalities and diet and fitness. When did you start experimenting with intermittent fasting?

Rebecca Rudisch: Like so many things, I was probably experimenting with intermittent fasting without knowing it was intermittent fasting. I really just realized that and this is a little bit of a shift when I finally left the big corporate retail world that I had been in and started more of an entrepreneurial path. I really found that when I was working in an office all day, it's just like the food is always there. People are always like there's always breakfast, and then there's a lunch, and then there're snacks, and then there's dinner. And particularly when you're the snack and beverage buyer, you are constantly being barraged with samples of everything. Even when I ran healthcare, there were always power bars or not power bars, but like protein bars and everything everywhere. So, I was always in that mode of like, snack, snack, snack, with meals and dinners out and whatever.

I'll be honest, I just never felt that good. When I stopped working in an office all the time, I found that I was just really happy eating twice a day. I usually work out in the morning and it's kind of my thing. So, I like to work out on an empty stomach. So, I would just find that I wouldn't really need to have anything to eat until like 11 or 12 in the afternoon or whatever. Then, I actually had a friend visit me who talked about how she was doing intermittent fasting. I said, “Oh, what is that? And she goes, “Oh, I just don't eat breakfast anymore.” [laughs] I said, “Oh, well, I think I do that too,” but I didn't really know that that's what it was. She started talking about all of the health benefits of it, which really got me intrigued. I think that's when I officially would have called myself an intermittent faster.

Since then, I changed it up a little bit. I think my body's changed a little bit. I have a really intense goal right now of putting on muscle. I just turned 49, I'm on the verge of 50, and the whole muscle loss as you get a little bit older, it's a real real thing. So, now it's all about muscle for me. I find that what I used to do with intermittent fasting of skipping breakfast and doing probably like 16 hours without eating. I probably more often I'm doing like 12 or 13 instead, just because I like to eat like two really big protein meals, but I'm still doing two meals a day and I feel so much better. It's better for my body. I think after all the years of snacking constantly, my body's just relieved to not have to be doing that anymore. So, it's been very natural and I'm glad I have a name for it now. I just thought I was skipping breakfast. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, I just had an epiphany I don't think I've ever had about intermittent fasting. This is a new thought for me. It just occurred to me because people ask all the time about being in social situations or work situations and if people comment on why they're not eating because they're fasting or people feeling like they're fasting and they feel awkward about it or they don't want to decline the food because of the social implications. It just occurred to me that if you're doing it, “by accident” like you were because you just weren't eating because you weren't hungry. Basically, you could be in the exact same situation, but because you haven't put a label on it in your head as I'm fasting, I think you can easily decline things because it's just you're declining because you're not hungry. Compared to if you have the label in your head that you're doing it because you're fasting, even though you could be in the exact same situation or exact same state. Either way, it's like when people add this label in their head, then all of a sudden, they bring in all of this baggage of, “Oh, I have to explain it or I'm not being normal.” Or compared to, if you're just not hungry, you just say you're not hungry. I just never thought about that before.

Rebecca Rudisch: I agree. And it's so funny that you say that, because my mom, when I was growing up, I don't think I've ever seen, well, now I have, but I don't think when I was a kid, I ever saw my mom eat breakfast. She had coffee every day and she was like, “Coffee is my breakfast. That's all I want.” She had the metabolism of a hummingbird, and she just always had energy, and nobody ever bugged her about it. It was never a thing. But she was an intermittent faster too. She had black coffee every day for breakfast and now there's this whole thing around it. But it was just normal for her.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting. Yeah. I never put that together in my head. Also, really random, do you know the mind-blowing fact about the hummingbird?

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't think I do.

Melanie Avalon: Did you know-- I learned this when I interviewed Dr. Rick Johnson, who I just simply adore? He talks about the hummingbird in his book Nature Wants Us to Be Fat. So, the hummingbird, it becomes diabetic every night. At some point in its circadian rhythm, it drinks all this nectar and it literally becomes diabetic. Like, if you looked at its blood profile, does so much activity with its metabolism that it undoes all that damage, and then it rinses and repeats. Isn't that crazy? Because you mentioned, the metabolism of a hummingbird. [laughs] But in any case, okay, so when you did put a label on intermittent fasting in your head, when you realized that's what you're doing, did you experience issues with work and social situations of feeling like you wanted to decline the eating situations but feeling awkward about it socially?

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't think so. It’s always been my own person as it relates to that, and I don't really think about it that way. I guess now, as an entrepreneur, for the most part we all work remotely. So, I'm not in an office every day, which definitely makes a big difference because you're not constantly in that kind of situation. My team knows sometimes I have breakfast, sometimes I have lunch, I always have dinner. I think we're all pretty accepting of where we're at from a health standpoint and that's a great place to be, but I do know it can be really challenging. I think back to all of my years in an office setting where I was eating three meals plus snacks a day. I think there probably can be a little bit more of a stigma of always needing to be in some kind of feeding situation.

But I do think there's starting to be a little bit more awareness around the fact that that isn't as healthy as what people thought it was for a long time again. Like I'll come back to I ran the snack department. We were all about people thinking they needed to eat all the time. We were probably responsible [laughs] for a lot of it. Certainly, all the research from the big CPG companies is there to propagate people's belief that they're going to better off if they just continue to graze all day long. To me, even though I was in that business and in that mode, it never felt good. I certainly did it, but I never felt great as I did it, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it does, completely. And on the protein front, it's awesome to hear about your focus on muscle and protein. We talk about that so much on this show. A question, we get from listeners all the time is they can't grasp how to fit in extra protein into a shortened eating window. I know you said that you elongated your eating window a bit to accommodate the protein. So, how do you fit in all the protein?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, what I found that is working really really well is I eat two big meals a day. And that's why I stretch them out so much, because I'm just not hungry in the middle. But two big meals a day and a really good chunk of protein in both. I've found that my body just responds better to animal protein than it does to plant protein. But I used to do a lot of plant protein too, but I'll just really eat like 40, 50 g a meal and it's working for me. I'm on all the bio-hacks as well and really intense exercise routine that's really helping as well. But I just think for me it's just really been about two really good solid meals instead of multiple times a day. Some people do well with three or more, but for me it's just great to have two really good sizable meals.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I love it. And for listeners, I think, okay, when you and I first started talking about EMSculpt, you had already done it or did you start doing it after I was doing it?

Rebecca Rudisch: I think we started doing it right around the same time I do EMSculpt and I think that's really helped in some cases. Also, I'm a huge huge believer of the CAROL Bike, so just like small bursts of cardio training. So, you and I also share that. The other thing that it's been a game changer for me is the ARX, which is robotic resistance training. So, basically, you're stronger on your eccentric motion than on your concentric motion, so it pushes back on you on the eccentric so that you get twice as much muscle building. So, I am all into anything that can make all of this not easier, [chuckles] but at least more effective.

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm all about it. Maximum gain, minimum pain, minimum time invested. Sounds like the ARX is like the resistant muscle building equivalent of CAROL and that CAROL is using AI resistance to give you the perfect REHIT workout.

Rebecca Rudisch: Exactly, right? Yes, exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, so historically, you were working in these retail companies. What made you make the decision to leave that career path and go true entrepreneur spirit, which I think can be really scary for a lot of people and founding an entire company, what was that experience like?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, I can't say that I jumped all in and just was able to do it overnight by any stretch. After I left Petco, like I said, I had been in charge of all of merchandising there. I thought about doing something entrepreneurial and I think I've always wanted to really do something that has an opportunity to change people's lives and make them better. When I was in snacks and beverages or health and wellness at Target, just so often, I had this amazing opportunity to sit across the table from some of the coolest brands and the brands that have made the biggest difference on people's lives in the past couple of decades. Whether it was method cleaning or OLLY Vitamins or Cliff Bar or other brands that were just there to make people's lives just a little bit better, to use ingredients that were cleaner, to use less sugar, less chemicals for your home or any of those things.

It was so inspirational to me to sit across from those founders when they were coming into Target and hear them tell their story, hear them talk about their why and their purpose. The thing that I loved more than anything else about the jobs that I had was being able to help those small companies who were making the world better succeed. So many times, I thought to myself, maybe someday I'll be able to be in that same position, and maybe someday the idea will come to me and I'll be able to make that leap. Then I would chicken out and I would just keep going on my path as a retail executive. I'm so fortunate that I did because finally I had a moment where because of everything that I had done, I had somebody knock on my door and this was a person who really helped me make the connection for Yummers.

While it was an opportunity to be a founder and to start a new company, it was really because somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Your experience is exactly what we need to do something in pet, will you come and join us?” So, I would say, I admire people who can just do it on their own. I am the person who needs to have other people around me. I am inspired by ideation and brainstorming with other people. I like to collaborate. I think best where I have an opportunity to have a sounding board or a partner. And the way that this all worked was perfect. But I've always had a fire in my belly to do something more entrepreneurial, and I feel incredibly grateful that I'm finally here.

Melanie Avalon: So, somebody came to you with the idea for Yummers specifically or was just like the idea of something like that?

Rebecca Rudisch: Yeah. So, Yummers actually came out of an incubator called Caravan, which is basically, we are a part of/venture of Creative Artists Talent Agency, which is why I had a chance to meet Jonathan and Antoni. So, Caravan had identified pet as an area that they wanted to go into. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do in pet. They didn't really know much about pet, but the pet industry is amazing for so many reasons and they thought so too. So, when they said, “We really want to do something in the pet business do you have any ideas?” I said, “Well, yes, I do.” [chuckles] So, that's exactly where Yummers was born, was through some of those ideas and the opportunity to join forces with JVN and Antoni as well.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. So many questions about this. And for listeners, they probably caught this, but Creative Artists Agency is CAA, which we hear that terminology more often, which is the biggest, it's at the top three for the biggest agencies in the entertainment sphere. So, very cool. Okay, so when you sat down, not really, but sat down to brainstorm and create what would ultimately become Yummers, what were your thoughts and what are your thoughts on the conventional pet food industry the way it is now, and what were you looking to achieve with Yummers?

Rebecca Rudisch: What happened with Yummers or where Yummers came from was really that desire to bring better to pets. There were a couple of areas that I was really fascinated by as I really started digging in and determining what exactly our product offering would be. There're really two things, first, the conventional pet food industry in terms of the quality of the product, basically it's a corollary to the human snack food business in so many different ways. Even, when I've toured some of the facilities and seen the production, you basically take ingredients which are certain ingredients, some of them are great, some of them aren't so great, and put them into an extruder. And out comes basically pellets of food that have been stripped of a lot of nutrition and almost all of the flavor and then their [unintelligible [00:33:34] are put back on top of it. Vitamins and minerals are kind of readded to the food so that it has complete and balanced nutrition and reminds me a lot of cereal.

Back in the food days, extruders are how you make Cheerios. So, it's the exact same thing. You take ingredients, you put them through a huge heat process and out comes something that really is not as nutritious. And with pet food, the vast majority of people feed kibble as a pet food. And the nutrition as we just talked about is not all that great. I can say that with my own opinion. But also, it doesn't make the pet that happy, it doesn't make the human that happy. And so much of life and a relationship with your friends is really around food and creating great moments over a great meal. And yet so many people see their pet, their dog or their cat as their best friend and they're just pouring this brown kibble into a bowl every day and putting it on the ground and saying "chow down buddy."

We really started to see that people weren't satisfied feeding that way anymore. So, the initial line of products that we launched with Yummers was this incredibly nutritious and we can talk about the way that they were prepared in a minute, but this incredibly nutritious and absolutely delicious range of products that were meant to be mix ins and toppers for either dog food or cat food. And some of them are just tasty, gourmet proteins and mixtures that just make the food taste better and give the human being the opportunity to make the meal a little bit more interesting. And then the other part of our assortment is really products that are, we call them supplements or functional. So, they are oriented around conditions that might be common for pets like hip and joint issues, or skin and coat issues, or digestive issues. We have supplements that you just put a little bit on top of the food and you can provide therapeutic doses of ingredients that help with those conditions every day during mealtime.

So, that's really where we started. And the core of our belief was around the way that the product was prepared. We call our products perfectly prepared because we prepare every one of our ingredients for the optimal bioavailability or nutrient availability for the body as well as they have to be incredibly tasty. Our name is Yummers, so they better be good. So, all of our products test off the charts for both nutrition as well as just being really tasty for the pet.

Melanie Avalon: This is so amazing. For listeners, I highly recommend checking out. I did an interview with Dr. Karen Becker for her book The Forever Dog. Honestly, reading that book was one of the most eye-opening things I've ever read. I've read a lot of books. I don't even have a dog. I learned so much in that book. Point being though, so much of what you said right now, I was just again getting flashbacks because she talks about how house pets, our cats and our dogs are really the only animal species on the planet that is eating processed food, a lot of them eating processed food every single meal for their entire lives. I mean, I guess some humans might as well. It's just shocking. It's not surprising to me at all that so many health conditions, mental health conditions, different diseases that we see in humans, we now see in our pets and I really believe it's really going back to the food situation.

Rebecca Rudisch: I think the food makes such a huge difference. I'll talk about Yummers food and what we've done, but I love the human grade fresh and frozen food that's available now and some of the companies out there that have done such a good job of bringing that product and making it available to pet parents. But what I also know is that today over 50% of pet parents, actually closer to 80% of pet parents are feeding processed kibble two or three times a day as the sole source of nutrition. And Melanie, just as you said, and part of that is because it's convenient, part of it is because it's more affordable. It's what they're used to. They don't want know take the fresh stuff out of the freezer and thaw it and have it in the refrigerator. I think that's the reality. So, with Yummers, we've really of struck the middle ground of having a product that is incredibly nutritious and prepared in the way that the ingredients can best absorbed for the pet.

At the same time, it is dry and it can be stored in the cupboard and it does have a little bit longer shelf life because of the fact that it's just freeze dried, it's just air dried and just like any other freeze-dried food that you eat as a human, it does last longer. So, it provides the same convenience, but it is so much better for the pet than feeding the standard processed kibble.

Melanie Avalon: Because I remember at one point, I was thinking of possibly working on a pet food line and I was diving deep into the rabbit hole because there are so many potential options that you can go as far as what type of pet food to make. It was so much of what you just said that it can be really intimidating for people, not cost-effective time wise, difficult to go on a completely Whole Foods raw diet or something like that with their pet. There needs to be something that's really accessible to people. I think what you're doing is so incredible for that. I can speak to the pets loving it. My sister has a cat, Jackie. My mom has her dog, Mia. And Rebecca was so kind and sent us over so many things and I gave it to them. I kept getting texts over and over about how obsessed they were with the food. And my sister kept asking for more saying how much Jackie was obsessed with it. And then yesterday, I sent Rebecca this. I texted this to her. But our assistant Sharon on the show sent me a video of her dog Tilly, of her putting Yummers into her dog Tilly's food and Tilly is, she's a bulldog and she's freaking out and just so excited about it leading up to eating it. I asked Sharon, I was like, “Does she always act that way around food?” She's like, “No, she's never done this before until Yummers.” So, they love it. They love it.

Rebecca Rudisch: You made my day when you sent that video. It always makes my day. But Melanie, I will tell you, she is not alone. My dog loves his food. He's really never turned down a good bowl of food, but he loves his Yummers. It seems to be the case for everybody. I just find it absolutely fascinating because I know how this stuff is made. I have seen every aspect of the production and it's just chicken that's freeze dried or beef that's freeze dried. It's just sweet potatoes that are air dried. It's just an ancient grain that is cooked for bioavailability. It's just real food. And to see my dog, to see Tilly, to see every other dog that I see go so crazy over it, actually tells me something about what I have been feeding him his whole life so far. Because this is just real food, it's just awesome real food and for him to get this excited about it, I think it's because instinctively, they know it's good for them, and they know that it's what their body needs. So, I love seeing it. I feel good every day. We get testimonials every once in a while, that just bring tears to my eyes about pets who might have cancer or who really struggle with their appetite. You give them some Yummers and they polish off the bowl, and that makes me really happy because I really do believe that we're solving for something that's really really powerful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so true. I hadn't thought about it in that aspect, but just it's such simple ingredients and they're just loving it so much, which does tell a lot about probably the current nutritional state of the conventional processed food. How did you decide which ingredients to include?

Rebecca Rudisch: A lot of testing. Again, I come back to the fact that our goal is to be the most nutritious and also the most tasty. So, we compromised on nothing. We knew that we wanted a variety of proteins because I think probably some of the listeners will empathize different pets have different allergies or sensitivities to different proteins. So, we wanted to have a good variety of proteins for customers to choose from. We also wanted to make sure that the ingredients that we chose were the best ingredients and the most nutritious. So, for example, I said, we have real chunks of chicken breast in our food because the protein is very bioavailable for pets or with other formulas, we have real salmon or real beef liver. Again, because of the nutrient bioavailability for the pet.

We chose ancient grains because there's more fiber than traditional, like brown rice or rice that would be used in a pet food or grain-free pet foods, which were, I think, trendy for a while. But people have started to realize that having some grains that are made bioavailable is a really good thing for a lot of pets. We chose sweet potatoes and a few other things just because pets really love them and they're incredibly nutritious. I'll tell a funny story. At one point, we did some experimentation of a formula with green beans, which would have been a good addition and certainly provided a little bit of variety. But we learned that a lot of pets don't like green beans very much because they would eat every nugget of the food and they would leave the green beans behind.

So, basically my mantra became only empty bowls were acceptable. So, nothing that is in the food has any reject factor with the pets. And that has been a little bit of our mantra. So, the food is amazing. If your listeners would indulge me and go take a look at yummerspets.com. You can see it looks different. It does not look like the kibble that they're used to feeding. It looks different because it is. You can really see each of the ingredients and how they all come together in the bowl. So, it's really great product. I really hope all of your listeners who have pets will try it. We're offering them the opportunity to do that for free, so we're really excited for that as well.

Melanie Avalon: So, if listeners go to yummerspets.com/ifpodcast you can actually try the new dog food line, a trial version of it, completely for free. Is it three flavors that you have?

Rebecca Rudisch: Three flavors, yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, you get to pick your favorite, get that completely free. You'll only pay shipping, which is so so awesome. Then also sitewide you can get 20% off with the coupon code IFPODCAST20, so IFPODCAST20, so thank you so much, Rebecca, for that, really really appreciate that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Thank you. I really hope we would love if every pet in America were to be able to have Yummers in their bowl. So, we want to do anything we can to make that happen.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. And listeners, feel free to send us videos or feedback about how much your pets love it because it's so wonderful to see. Comment on the grains, because I looked up the grains that you use and is it sorghum, millet, and brown rice?

Rebecca Rudisch: Exactly right.

Melanie Avalon: Those are all gluten-free grains.

Rebecca Rudisch: All gluten free, they are gluten free. They're all source of the highest quality and they're all very intentional in terms of the nutrient profile. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you find-- Was it difference formulating the dog food versus the pet food and the toppers or was it a pretty similar process?

Rebecca Rudisch: No, it's totally different. I always say and this probably is analogy that only works for a nerd like me. But developing the toppers was like developing snacks where there weren't a lot of rules and you could experiment with a lot of different things with the exception of the supplement toppers, because those we wanted to make sure to have a real efficacious dose. But like one of our toppers, for example, is just shredded cheese and it's one of our top sellers because people really love how human it is and you can just sprinkle a little bit on the food and that was just a creative idea that we had. We have some really great stuff coming. So, I really encourage people to take a look at what we have coming. At the end of the year, we have another really great supplement topper coming and we're going to keep developing more.

But a lot of that is just fun stuff that we can do and there doesn't need to be as much rigor around the complete and balanced nutrition. When you develop a dog or a cat food, the standards in terms of being complete and balanced are very rigorous. I've always said, I think in many ways developing pet food is harder than developing a lot of human food because there is a very clear standard in terms of the nutrition and the balance of macros as well as the balance of vitamins and minerals and other things. The pet industry in some ways is way behind people and in some ways there's even more standards. So, we were very careful in the development of the food to make sure that it is complete and balanced, that it is incredibly healthy for pets. It fits all breeds and life stages and doing that, it's a lot of work to get the formulations right.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just thinking about how speaking of the simple ingredients, I remember when you first sent me the toppers because it was right before I was going to Austin for an event. I was looking at the ingredients and I was like, “Oh. I was like, I could eat this. I was like, “Maybe I should pack [laughs] this in my suitcase and then I'll have something to eat” because it was literally just like chicken. I remember I texted you about that. You're like, “I can't officially recommend that.” [laughs]

Rebecca Rudisch: There's nothing that would tell you that you couldn't, but I'm not going to recommend it and I wouldn't recommend it to any of your listeners. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that I share, but I have to constantly tell Antoni that he really shouldn't be putting the cheese on a salad, even though he's talked often about how he loves to put the cheese on the salad. I cannot endorse that behavior. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that I shared that because that is his favorite item.

Melanie Avalon: That’s so funny that's. Especially in the beginning when they were posting on Instagram and a lot, did you have to have some talks about what you could and could not post with that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Particularly, as it relates to them eating the food? Yes. Not that it wouldn't be a good thing, but no, we cannot endorse that. That is not. Again, in fact, what I can also say is that our supplier for one of the products actually ate only his food for a month and actually has some video recordings of it. And again, we can't endorse that. But it's really good food. The quality is impeccable. But no, I wouldn't suggest that any of your listeners start eating it for lunch.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. What are some of the practices like with the proteins as far as the sourcing and the raising practices of those animals?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, we just have really high standards and it's just real human food. So, the chicken is just chicken breast, beef liver is just beef liver. We source from very high-quality sources and all in the USA, with the exception of we have lamb that's from New Zealand. So, we go for the best of the best in terms of sourcing location. We believe that it's just important that the ingredients are the best ingredients that you can put into the food because I think that's why it's so delicious and certainly why the nutritional value is much higher than what you would find in conventional food.

Melanie Avalon: I love it, love it. I'm curious what has been the response because you do have the line in Petco. What has it been like selling it in Petco versus direct to consumer online?

Rebecca Rudisch: It's really interesting. We sell it at Petco. We also sell for your California listeners. We sell at an awesome retailer called Pet Food Express. And then we do sell on direct to consumer. I think we just attract different customers in every location and we see it with the products that we sell. So, at Petco, we have a much higher percentage of our sales coming from cat customers than we do in our direct to consumer, I think, we just have a lot more dog customers coming direct to consumer. Our direct-to-consumer customers tend to like to buy more of the supplements and similarly with Pet Food Express, we just see a lot more of trading into the supplement SKUs. We also see that a lot of people on our own website like to buy multiples. So, they'll like maybe a beef liver and a digestive and a skin and coat or something like that. We've created some bundles around some of those more common combinations as well. But I just think we're attracting different customers with all of the different points of distribution, which is great, because it just means that we're able to reach more customers and they can use Yummers for either along with food that they've already been feeding or now they can try our food.

Melanie Avalon: You said there are a lot of great things coming in the pipeline, so how do you feel-- Because I know for me, once I created my first supplement line with AvalonX and I created the Serrapeptase, it was just like it lit this fire in me. I was like, “Now I just want to create all the things.” So, what has been your experience now with having this power and agency to create products? Do you want to make a million more different things with Yummers or how do you feel about all of it?

Rebecca Rudisch: Absolutely, yes, I know exactly what you mean that fire in your belly that just lights you up and you just get so many ideas and you're inspired from so many different things. I've always been that way. I have been a product junkie for my entire life. I'm always looking for white space in different categories. I think part of it because I've run so many businesses in my career. My mind is always going on like, what's next? What's better? What doesn't exist yet? What are trends in the marketplace whether it's ingredients or whatever? So, yes, I'm completely inspired to create a lot more Yummers products. My team's mission is truly, as I said earlier, but our mission is to have Yummers in every bowl.

That doesn't mean that every single person who tries Yummers has to change to our food. We have a great food. I'm thrilled with it. I hope everybody in the US wants to feed it, but if they don't, if they like what they're feeding now or their vet recommends something, we get it. That means that people have something that they like, they might not want to switch, but they can always add a topper or a mix in, and they can always make their meal just a little bit better. So, I start to think about what people might want to do to make the usual meal an extra special dinner. My mind goes crazy. So yes, there're lots of really fun stuff coming. I've always been inspired by things that are really relevant for humans. So, things like superfoods and some of the superfood ingredients I'm totally into right now. I'll just give a little peek under the tent.

I'm totally into the benefit of mushrooms for human health and so many of the things that humans find value in terms of turkey tail mushrooms or lion's mane or chaga, all of those benefits that humans are getting out of those products translate to pet or antioxidants or probiotics, things like that. So, we're developing some really cool stuff that will come out at the end of the year and we're going to keep going from there, new and innovative things to add to the bowl.

Melanie Avalon: It reminds me as well you're talking about how these compounds and these foods that apply to humans apply to pets. I keep mentioning that The Forever Dog book, but really, listeners, I recommend reading it. That was the big takeaway I took from that book, was just how similar all of these practices that we do for ourselves as humans apply to our pets equally. It’s really, honestly pretty mind blowing. Also, something I thought of with you talking about animals with sensitivities and things like that. I learned a lot about prescription pet food, and I won't even go into it in granular detail. But that's something else she talks about in that book. That really blew my mind because I always thought prescription pet food was from a doctor. I thought it was actually really medical, but I don't want to get controversial. But it's not really, it's still a product of the pet food industry, which is shocking. Oh, you mentioned earlier how you reached out because you heard me share my story on the podcast. Was it me talking about how my cat Misty had died from diabetes? Was that what it was about?

Rebecca Rudisch: It might have. I vividly remember you talking about-- I think you had just started to dive deep into The Forever Dog when we met. I think you were just starting to recognize how challenging the pet food industry is. I think, yes, I think it was your cat and diabetes but I don't remember exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Because my cat Misty, who I adored, I actually have a story about that, but I'll circle back to it. Yeah so, she died of diabetes. I remember my mom made this comment. She was like, “Oh, well, all cats die from diabetes if they live long enough.” My mom has a tendency to make very exaggerated claims. So, I was like, “That's not true.” And then I went and googled it and yeah, basically I was looking up on PubMed, like cat mortality studies and basically if the modern house cat lives long enough, it usually dies from diabetes. And that blew my mind and that's when I was like, “Okay, there is something very wrong here in the conventional pet food system, very, very wrong."

Rebecca Rudisch: It's so true because we all know how preventable diabetes is for humans.

Melanie Avalon: Diabetes or kidney disease? I think it's kidney disease. I might need to resay that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Probably a combination of both and actually a little bit of a tangent, but we have a phenomenal vet on our team. She's absolutely incredible. I learn from her every day. And we happened to be at dinner just a couple of weeks ago and she was talking about one of the causes of kidney issues and bladder issues for cats is actually that they get really nervous and so their bladders or whatever, I don't know, if I can describe it the right way, and I don't want to paraphrase her because she's so brilliant, but it's their bladder spasm. If they were calmer and potentially had more even some calming supplements, that a lot of the bladder issues that cats had would not be prevalent. I was fascinated by that. So, I'm absolutely fortunate to have her on our team because she has really true insight into the why physically certain conditions happen with pets. I'm really optimistic that we're going to be able to do some great things and bring some really great solutions to the market too.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because I think it was chronic kidney disease, but Misty did have diabetes, and like you said, I think it all goes together, and it's not something that like that doesn't happen in cats in the wild. So, there's something going on here. Well, okay. I have so many more things I could talk to you about, maybe to bring everything full circle because we opened this up in the beginning, talking more about you and your personal story. This is a tangent question, but what has been your experience as specifically a female in business? Again, I mentioned at the beginning how I'm just so inspired by you and everything that you've done. Have you had any experience of that being a hurdle in your journey or even in your favor? What is it like being a woman in business?

Rebecca Rudisch: I feel like I've been really lucky, but I also do look back and I think the world has evolved a lot since I started my career, and I definitely feel like there have been a lot of challenges and some opportunities too. I would say probably a mix of both. I definitely think that and I coach a lot of women as leaders and one of the things that I get the most energy out of in the world is building teams and specifically building up and helping women leaders along the way. I think the idea of the impostor syndrome is real. It's a real thing. I absolutely would say that I, at various points in time in my career, have had it. So, I think there's some aspect of being a woman and business that we might even get in our own way a little bit.

I take full ownership of the fact that there have been some situations where I have felt intimidated or I have felt like there have been challenges that I've been up against. I won't tell the full story, but some of the behavior of people on my team when I was really early in my career, it wouldn't be condoned today, let's just put it that way. But that was real. The guys had one set of rules and a social situation, and the women didn't or had a different set of rules, so to speak. I felt like in my career I've been able to overcome a lot and I've had a lot of really great opportunities. I moved fast. I had great opportunities for promotion and leadership. There were a couple of times when I did feel like there was more of boy’s club going on and I think a lot of that was pretty real.

I worked in companies that were pretty male dominated in many cases and I definitely felt that. I think probably the time that I felt the most like it was difficult to be a woman was really when I was fundraising for Yummers. It wasn't easy. I think, in the industry, there's just a lot of understanding that it is harder as a woman trying to raise money for a company. I don't really know what it is, but there still seems to be a little bit of a ceiling there. I was incredibly successful and I'm eternally grateful for it, but it was hard, and I definitely felt a little bit of that. At the same time, I do think that the world is changing quickly. I'm on a board that I know I was recruited onto because they wanted a woman and because it was founded by a very inspiring young woman.

One of her stipulations is that there would be a certain representation of women on the board. I feel pretty lucky about that because I was recruited and my gender certainly was a piece of the reason that I got the role. So, I think there's a lot happening that is really, I think, good. I would just give a lot of advice to anybody who is in the business world today. Taking advantage of every opportunity you have. I think probably the biggest piece of advice I would have is, if you have any of the impostor syndrome happening, get over it and find a way to get over it. One of the things that I like doing more than anything is helping others get past it because it's real. I would say it's not only women, but definitely I think women tend to have a lot of it just inherently.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I can speak to that to listeners that Rebecca is being completely authentic in everything that she said, because there've been so many times, I've connected you to fellow women that I know that you've wanted to connect with. I remember I didn't tell you this, but one of the women that I connected you to, I think you did a call with her or something, and then I talked to my friend afterwards, and she's like, “Rebecca is so nice. She's so incredible. She's so amazing.” She was like, “But I don't know what she wants from me, because she just says she wants to just help.” I was like, “She does,” [laughs] that's who she is. So, yeah. It's really wonderful to see you supporting fellow women and inspiring others and I know I personally appreciate it so, so much. One last question, how do you work on your work-life balance with your health now?

Rebecca Rudisch: I call it work-life integration. I don't know that I've ever had work-life balance. I'm just going to call it integration because if I'm being honest about it, I think that's probably more what it is. I would say in the last 10 years or so in my career, I feel very lucky that I have been able to really integrate my work and my life and I had the wonderful opportunity to remarry. I am with the love of my life now, who is so incredibly supportive of me and also really wants to participate and wants to be a part of what I'm doing at work and so I think one great blessing I have is I'm going to New York next week and my husband's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll come with you.” So, he's going to come. I'll be working most of the time that I'm there, but we'll hang out a little bit when I'm not working and probably go have a good foodie dinner and I'll send you pictures Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Rebecca Rudisch: You know, but I think that's a big piece and I've really started to be good about setting boundaries, and I don't think I was always good about this before, but talk about self-care or bio-hacks or whatever else I do, they are mandatory, and that is how I keep my energy up, that's how I eliminate stress. They're absolutely set in stone and I will not compromise them. It doesn't mean that I get to do red light every day. It doesn't mean that I get to go do the CAROL Bike every day. But I definitely schedule time for those things. Not as much as you, Melanie. You are my inspiration as it relates to blocking off your calendar for self-care. I will someday be that good. But I do know how important it is for me as a leader to have the energy that I need to be a leader.

Those are things that are just they're nonnegotiable. So, I think to summarize, I would say set boundaries. I schedule in the time that I need for myself whether it's exercise or self-care or whatever. I bring my husband and my friends into the work that I do and I'm really lucky to do that. I've recognized that it's always a journey and I have to stay flexible and I also have to make sure that others are flexible. The other thing I would say is that I'm really proud of this. I'm so proud of this. Yummers is the first time that I've had the ability to create a company culture from the ground up. I've worked for big companies before, the culture is what it is and you can have a tiny impact, but you can't really change Target. I loved it, I loved it there, but it was Target and I get to create the culture for Yummers. It's really important to me that wellness is at the core of our culture.

So, you talk about work-life balance and you talk about wellness. One of the things that we do as a team is, if we have a meeting that's over like 2 hours long, like if we have a monthly meeting or something, we do a walking break. So, we all go off video and we take our phones and we go for a walk and we walk and talk about something that doesn't require a presentation. Or when we have our team off sites, we have them at my house because we're a tiny little team. But when we have our team off sites, we build in time for a walk every day after lunch, we build in wellness time. I instituted a wellness benefit with the team and they love it. We all have our wellness goals and we talk about them as a team and we help each other out and support each other. So, I try to bring that work-life balance in a lot of different ways. I don't think there is any one way, but it's something that's incredibly important to me and always top of mind.

Melanie Avalon: I love that reframe of work-life integration. It just occurred to me, I think we need to rebrand the word self-care because I think we don't call like-- when we take our car to the gas station, we don't call it self-care for the car. We call it just filling up the car with gas. I just think it's so important. You have to schedule time into your life to fill yourself up with energy and rest and you have to take care of your body that you're in. We call it self-care. Then I think people think that's selfish because of the word. So, I'm voting for like a new word for self-care.

Rebecca Rudisch: I will vote with you. That's a good point.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you. This has been so incredibly amazing. Again, you're so kind. So, for listeners, if you like to get your own Yummers, so you can get 20% off sitewide @yummerspets.com/ifpodcast and then you can also get that free dog food and one of their three flavors for free, just go to yummerspets.com/ifpodcast and that offer will be there as well. Well, this was amazing. Anything else that you would like to share with our listeners, Rebecca, about Yummers or where you're at or anything that you would like to put out there.

Rebecca Rudisch: I mean, please take us up on the opportunity to try out some Yummers like it would mean the world to us. And please provide any feedback. We're trying to be the most amazing company for your pets, so please do that. I just want to say thank you, Melanie. Your community is so inspiring and I know that it is because of all the hard work that you do. And you've been so kind to me in this conversation. I just want to say you were a true inspiration to me and I know to so many of the people who are listening today. So, thank you for having me. This has been really really special.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, you're so sweet. I so enjoyed this and I'm so grateful that you sent that email and reached out those many many months ago, because for listeners, Rebecca and I have many potential adventures we want to go on in the future. But I just so appreciate your friendship and this relationship and I'm super excited to see everything that you do with Yummers and I'm super excited for listeners to try it and report back. So, yes, this has been wonderful and I guess I will talk to you very soon.

Rebecca Rudisch: Talk to you soon. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: You too, Rebecca. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS