Search Results for: collagen

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 31

Episode 350: NMN, NAD Patches, Finding Your Fasting Pattern, Excess Protein, Overeating, New Years Resolutions, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #227 - Dan Levitt

Welcome to Episode 350 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Go to www.melanieavalon.com/ionlayer to get $100 off NAD patches with the code MELANIEAVALON!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Listener Q&A: Jeff - Early is better?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 350 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 350 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, 350. Is that a milestone? Should we have made this some sort of episode? Like a special episode?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever done that for 350. I remember doing it for like 100 and then maybe the hundred, every increment of 100. I just had 500 on mine and I celebrated that.

Melanie Avalon:
500? Whoa.

Vanessa Spina:
But 50 in between? I don't know, like, maybe 400 or 500 would be. We can do something big for them.

Melanie Avalon:
400?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow. 500. Congratulations. That's a long time podcasting.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I didn't even actually do much for it, and then my brother texted me and he was like, oh, my gosh, congrats on 500 episodes. I was like, oh, that's so sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
350 is a nice number, though. It's great.

Melanie Avalon:
What was your first podcast experience, like, episode?

Vanessa Spina:
So I actually did it with my best friend Jess's brother, and we sat down together in Vancouver, and I had all the equipment on the dining table of this airbnb where I was staying, and her Brother Billy came over and we did an episode on hormones and exercise. He's like a personal trainer. It was really fun and it was in person, so we got to sit there and just podcast together. And I was like, oh, that was amazing. And, yeah, it's definitely one of the top downloaded episodes, obviously, because of the first one, but it did really well. That first one did well. And, yeah, I was so excited. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, so your first in person, and I've still never done an in person. Did you continue it in person?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I just did that one because I thought it would be a fun way to break the ice. Her brother Billy and I have a really good relationship and great chat. So I was like, this would be a great person to do the first episode with. Just like, not like an expert guest, but someone who's knowledgeable and someone that I flow really well with. So we did a really fun first episode, and I was like, this is going to be amazing. But I had, over the years before that, been invited on other people's podcasts, and every time I would do one, I was like, this is so fun. I love this. I get in the flow. I get in a flow state. I feel amazing. I could do this for hours. I was like, I need to do this. I need to podcast. So I was pretty excited to make the decision.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. I don't think I'd been actually, I might have been on. Oh, I do remember my first podcast, and I was so nervous. And it wasn't even. Not to say anything bad about podcasts, but it was not like a big deal podcast. But I was like, oh, I was so scared. And, wow, that puts things in perspective. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to record in person. How do you feel about, this is so random. When you're trying to find something that you need, how do you feel about the research? A lot. Be really specific. Try to find the perfect thing approach versus the throw it at the wall. Just like reach out to a million different options and kind of just see what manifests approach.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends on the thing, but I usually like to do both. I like to research, especially if it's something I'm not super knowledgeable on, so that I have lots of information. But I'm also a big fan of experimentation, so I think that's the best way to figure out the optimal way of doing something, trying different approaches. I'm such a big fan of experimentation when it comes to lifestyle, diet, nutrition, everything. So I like combining both.

Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Okay. Yeah. I thought about it for two reasons. One, I recently aired an episode. I think I mentioned it. Did I mention this last time? Dr. Jennifer Gutman and her beyond Happiness book and how she talks about how all decisions are guesses?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, you mentioned it because we had a question related to that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. That's right. I feel like I did this two nights ago because I'm still trying to find somebody in Austin when I go record with Dave Asprey in person to do the tech aspect because I was like, I need to research and find the person and make this a thing. And then I was like, I just can't do this. So I literally just wrote an email asking for what I wanted. And then I googled Austin podcast studios and then I literally just clicked the first dozen links. These are for in person podcast studios. And I just sent it to them asking if they could come help me remotely, which is like, not a service that any of these people, but. And I was like, whoever answers, I'll.

Vanessa Spina:
Just be like, yes, that's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon:
And then we'll be done. I'm not even going to think about it. Just like the first person that says I can do it, I'll be like, okay, come with me. This could go really bad, but that's fine. Point being of that is I think I used to be neurotic about all decisions and over researching and finding the perfect thing, and now I'm just to the point sometimes where it's like, you know what? Whatever works. Whatever works. We're just going to go with it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, well, you've been doing this for so long and we talked about before you doing like a dress rehearsal with your sister.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
It really works. See that?

Melanie Avalon:
But that would be putting in all the, all the energy where I'm kind of like, it would. I think I'm just going to not just show up because there's a lot of orchestration, but there's just like so much in life. Wow, this was a tangent. I did not mean to go down. I did want to share a resource really quick with listeners. So I've talked a lot about both NAD and NMN. So, long story short, NAD is basically a master metabolic coenzyme in the body. It's involved in all of your living cells, all energy production, everything that you do. It's more complicated than that. It's actually like a NAD NADH ratio. But regardless, declines in NAD are associated with aging and disease, and a lot of people focus on boosting their NAD levels. And so I've talked about this a lot. I take an NMN supplement nightly, even though it's confusing right now because the FDA is being weird about it. So it can be a little bit hard to get. I've also been doing NAD infusions. I did those for about, I don't know, maybe six to eight months. I was doing them every week. Have you done those, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So I like them. They're just very expensive. Very expensive, and they do not make me feel good in the moment. Like, they make me feel bad. So I'm like, this is a lot of money to pay to feel pretty bad for, like, a little bit. So those are the injections. There's also ivs, which are even more expensive, and I have not done one of those because I was like, there's no way I'm going to pay that much to feel this bad for a few hours compared to the injection, which. So it's an intramuscular injection. It lasts for, like, ten minutes, so I don't feel that well. In any case, a brand reached out to me called Ion layer, and they make NAD patches, and I am so excited because they're way more affordable than the injections and the IVs, and they have data showing that they do clinically boost NAD levels. And it's just so easy to do. Like, they send you the patches and then the Ned and some saline and some water, and it's like a whole process, but it's easy once you learn how to do it. And you basically activate the NAD and then you wear the patch. And it's kind of like for listeners who wear continuous glucose monitors, it doesn't stick anything into your skin, but it sticks on your skin, and then you put a cover over it that's kind of like those CGM covers. I'm obsessed. I have replaced doing the injections with these patches, so I'm doing these patches once a week, and I'm doing them because I tend to go out on Friday or Saturday, so I wear them after the next day after going out to boost my NAD from my activities. So I actually have an incredible code for listeners. Like, incredible. So you can actually get $100 off your first kit, which is crazy. So $100 off with the code, MELANIEAVALON. So for that, I'll make a link. So if you go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, that will take you there, and you can use that code, Melanie Avalon, for $100 off. So again, I highly recommend it. I'm going to implement this into my life and use it every week. They last for 14 hours. Okay, that's my update. Anything from you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I just finished having the latest protein shake with the latest version of tone protein, and it tasted great. It's really interesting. It's been taking a little bit longer than we anticipated to get the flavor right. And it turns out, because tone protein has added leucine in it. Leucine is a super bitter amino acid, so we've been trying different formulations. I think I also shared on the podcast how the tone protein samples that I had were making the tone device go crazy. And it was because there was actually alcohol in the vanilla, so we had to get rid of that, get another natural vanilla.

Melanie Avalon:
That still blows my mind. That really blows my mind that it lasted that long.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you sure? Yeah. I know you're sure.

Vanessa Spina:
I know. And the funny thing is, I was thinking, too, because I have tamari a lot with different meals I make, because I make a lot of low carb, like, asian food. And I was like, I use tamari, and there's a tiny bit of alcohol in there, but it doesn't seem to affect the tone device. But if I have cabbage, then the tone will blow, like, as much as if I had a glass of wine because of this raphano sugar in there. So there's certain things that it really does affect. But with that sample, as soon as I figured it out, it made so much sense, and it was very clear that that was the only thing. There was three days that week that it happened, and the only thing I changed was having that sample of tone protein. But then when I was talking to Scott a little bit more, he said that the vanilla also had some quote unquote natural sugars in it. And I was like, squeeze me. What? I was like, what do you mean, natural sugars? So apparently there were these natural sugars in, and I was like, this is like a non negotiable for me, like, no sugars. I don't want any alcohol in it. And as you like, Scott understands that particularness, know, festival or whatever you want to call it when it comes to supplements. So he was like, totally get it. Totally get you. Let's fix it. So I just got the new samples, like, 3 hours ago, and I just made my regular shake with almond milk and ice and tone protein. And so this version has something called a bitter blocker added into it, and I'm trying to keep it with as minimal ingredients as possible, but leucine is that bitter. That the bitter blocker actually made a huge difference. So I just was, like, having the last bites of it as we started chatting tonight, and it was great. So I think we have our winner. There's three other versions that he sent me as well, and some of them have some gums, like organic gums, like xanthum gum. Scott says there's all these health benefits. I was like, can we do it without the gums? He's like, there's really a lot of health benefits to them. Then finally, I said, can we do one without the gums? But instead, he decided to put collagen in. So I think that is going to help with the overall flavor profile and the bitter blocker. So nothing wrong with having some collagen in there. And, yeah, I'm excited because I think we finally have our winner. But it's crazy how long it takes with flavors, because when you have a supplement that's encapsulated, you don't have to worry about the way it tastes. Right? But when it's a supplement that's also a food, like protein powder, it's also got to taste great and not have weird aftertaste or not have alcohol in it. That's going to mess with my tone device and all my community members that love to use the tone, I don't want them to be having weird results. So, yeah, I'm excited because it tasted really good. So I think we're going to be able to launch really soon.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that is very exciting. I know what you mean about the flavor taste stuff, because right now, working on the spirit, Lena, that's something where you taste it and it's like a whole nother ballpark of the sensory experience to address. Congratulations. It's exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
I just have to swallow the spirulina. Like the spirulina and the chlorella. I just have to swallow it because I don't like the taste of any of those kind of green things.

Melanie Avalon:
I can't wait for your final manifestation.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, it's just so funny that I just happened to be eating it, like, right as we started and we were chatting.

Melanie Avalon:
People are going to be so excited to finally get it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, me too. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, by the time this comes out, this comes out January 1. Vanessa, we forgot.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year. That's what we should be celebrating.

Melanie Avalon:
We forgot to start looking at the date. Okay. Mental note. Melanie, look at the date. Okay. And now it's, like, too late. We're like, I have an idea. Let's talk about intermittent fasting and the new year.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, let's take a.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the. Like, we're on a train, and we're going to go down a different track. Or Disney. Wait, before that. How can people get all over the place? How can people get on the email list or get your tone protein and. Or find out information about it?

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
If you would like to be updated when it's going to be out. That's at Toneprotein.com. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll be added to the list. And it's the exclusive launch discount list, so it'll be the biggest discount we ever offer on tone protein. So that's at toneprotein.com. And thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. I'm so excited for you. I know it's been a long journey with you getting this formulation, so it's really exciting for the final version to come. And I know it's going to be the very best of the best.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
January 1. This is a question that must be asked of you, because I don't think we've had this conversation. Do you make New Year's resolutions?

Vanessa Spina:
I knew that was coming. I feel like it's always a blank slate. It's always an opportunity to set goals. But I'm not a big resolution person. I like to just be sort of setting goals all throughout the year and always trying to make sure that I always have something that I'm moving towards, something that I'm excited about, something that I'm just a goal oriented person. So resolutions are not really like, it feels more forced. I don't know. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm the exact same way. My life is driven by goals. It's exhausting in a good way. So I don't ever really have the need for a date with a specific goal because I would just have done that anyways. There's not any goal. If there was a goal I wanted, I would have already made it. It would be hard for me to think of something to do because I'm probably already actively pursuing it. How do you feel about. We have talked about this in past shows on New Year's, the pretty shocking statistics about how long diet resolutions last. How do you feel about New Year's goals? And is it a good time to try a new fasting window or a diet goal or something like that?

Vanessa Spina:
I do like it. I do think it's a good time to reset. A lot of people also like September for that. But it's really interesting because this is so pervasive. And if you work in health and wellness and fitness, then you know how seasonal it is. And there is this trend. Like, you can look it up even if you just look on Google trends, like see what people are searching. But if you work in health and fitness, if you work, especially helping people to improve their body composition, lose fat and build muscle, it's crazy what a high there is in January for wellness. People are super interested in wellness. And I like that. I like that people have that feeling of like, it's a new year, it's a blank slate. I'm going to be at my most fit ever, or I'm going to try this or try that. That they get this renewed sense of energy and desire and focus. I really like that. It's like, take that ride, that wave, use it to your advantage. The same way that women every month who are cycling have that first ten days of. Whenever you start a new cycle, you get this superwoman energy. Like, you have this estrogen rising. It's a great time to start a new lifestyle, nutrition plan, new fasting window, whether it's circadian fasting or Omad or whatever it is that you're interested in trying, take advantage. I think of those energetic highs and, yeah, it kicks off in January, really peaks, like January, February, March, April, May, then starts to slow down a little bit. There's a little bit of a summer slowdown, then it picks back up again towards September, and then it goes to the annual low between basically Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's events and everything that people have. No one's really thinking anymore about getting fit during that time, unless you're weird like us. But yeah, it's interesting. And I think it's great that people have that reset feeling.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. I love that so much. It's made me realize something about my life in that I feel like when I was younger, I used to always be sad about January coming because I didn't want the holidays to end. Like, I just loved Christmas so much. And it was like once January came, it's like, well, the sparkle is gone, but now life is just so exciting that I don't feel that way ever. I'm like, bring it on. I'm so excited about everything new. I do remember a statistic about the holiday weight gain that has stuck with me for a long time. And it was basically that people don't gain as much as we think. I'd have to find the study, and it was a while ago that I read it, but it wasn't a ton. Like, it was like a couple of pounds, but they don't tend to lose that. So it's like, people tend to maintain adding that pound or two extra each year. It doesn't go away. So, like, each year, their base point or their baseline is rising, which is concerning. I'm also really fascinated by the idea or the concept. I think about this a lot with cycles, how it feels like it's. I don't know if I can articulate this. It feels like we've been there before, and it feels like we're going in circles, but really, it's all new. That haunts me. I don't know how to articulate this. Like, weeks, like, we think it's Monday again, like, we've been here. We think it's Tuesday again, but really, it's all a new day, every single day. That really stresses me out if I think about it too much.

Vanessa Spina:
Which part stresses you out?

Melanie Avalon:
That we feel like we've been here before, but we haven't. It's literally, like, moving forward on the timeline.

Vanessa Spina:
What weirds me out is when I think about how we have these frameworks, about time and calendars.

Melanie Avalon:
They're not real.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're not real.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, good. You understood what I was saying. Okay. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Because I'm like, okay. I think of each week as seven days, and I know that it helps me mentally to know that I have five work days and two weekend days with holidays or long weekends or whatever, and that seven days. There's something about it that feels comforting that you have your calendar and you know each week and what your Monday is and everything, but I often think about the fact that it's totally made up and that there is no real thing. But as humans and the way our minds are, we thrive with that framework and having that consistency of the weeks and the calendar. And, I mean, some of it is real, right? Because we do have light cycles of day and night. We do have monthly cycles with the moon, and there's, like, the gregorian calendar and all this stuff. But I feel like this is something you need to get into on your rabbit hole podcast with Scott.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's such a good. So I'm just so happy you knew what I was saying. You articulated it. So we. We come up with this time structure, but it's not like we're like, oh, this is a Monday. This is another Monday. But, no, this is actually a new not. You have not been here before. It's very stressful to make it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's like one of those middle of the night thoughts, like, you wake up and you can't get back to sleep, and you're just like, the calendar isn't real. You're just staring at the ceiling with wide eyes going like, but it's Thursday. But it's not actually. It's just like, yeah, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
We'Ve had this moment? Oh, my goodness. No. I had a moment, actually, when I was reading, I mentioned interviewing Dan Levitt for his book what's gotten into you? About the history of atoms from the big bang until us. And he had, like, one sentence there that was so casual and such a throwaway, and I fixated on it. He mentioned how planets. Certain planets, rotate on their side or something. And I was like, how do we know what their side is that's not real? Who said where up is or down?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, gravity, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
But with planets rotating, they're just in. Like.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like, in relation to what I know. And those moments, I think, are important to know. When we were in Greece, we were walking and we all just looked up at the sky and we're telling, like, we live on a planet, and those are the stars, and the planet is going around the. And every time I think about that, I'm just like, what am I even like? We live on a planet that's just. None of it makes sense. But, yeah, it's all just, like, pretty wild.

Melanie Avalon:
Reminds me of probably one of my favorite lines in a Disney movie. Do you know what it is? Based on our conversation, can you guess?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think that I'll have enough time to guess.

Melanie Avalon:
It's in Lion King, when they're looking at the stars.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, what do they.

Melanie Avalon:
It's. What is it? It's Timon and Pumbaa discussing the stars. Oh, and Simba, he's present. And they're talking about. What are the stars? Simba is talking about how he was told that his dad told him the stars are like the kings of the past. And then Timon kind of talks down to him, and he's like, no, they're fireflies. Like, the stars are fireflies. And then Pumbaa's like. Because when you're little, this just goes over your head. But Pumbaa's like. I always thought they were, know, big balls of gas burning thousands of miles away.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember Pumbaa saying that.

Melanie Avalon:
And when you're a kid, you're like, oh, Pumbaa, you're so silly. But really, it's completely accurate. Yeah, because that's when Timon's like, no, they're fireflies stuck in that big, black sticky. It's so good. So good.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to show Luca lion king.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Yes. All the Disney stuff. He can wear his. Oh, I wanted you to say it because you texted it to me. So, what does he call the fireman outfit?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, Finerman. He's like, luca. We put him in the fireman suit, and I was like, I think he's going to like this. No, he loves it. And he wouldn't take it off. And he just kept looking at himself in the mirror. He's like, luca Feynman. Luca Feynman. We were like, yeah, Luca, you're a Feynman. And then he wanted to sleep in it, and he didn't want to take it off. He's got a little fire extinguisher and a little helmet, and he's got a little megaphone or whatever, and it's so cute. He's going to be so excited to wear it for Halloween. And I know it's the new year now. This is going to sound a little dated, but, yeah, Luca got to be a fineman.

Melanie Avalon:
The picture you sent me was, like, the cutest thing ever. I was smiling, so. Oh, treasures. Treasure yet? And maybe when this comes out, you'll have another treasure.

Vanessa Spina:
Hopefully, I definitely will. By that time. By the time this is out. Yeah, I'll be in the baby bubble. The love bubble.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Very exciting. Okay, well, happy New Year's to everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Happy new year.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Use this time energetically, this made up time, this fake construction, to fuel your life accordingly. I'm excited. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay, so to start things off, this is actually an update question. We got to an email. I'll reread the email that we already answered on the show. And then I thought I would just share the listener's update, because I thought it was. I'll just read it. So, Jeff and I don't know when we answered this originally, but he had written in saying that he listens to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. Oh, that reminds. I'm glad, glad I'm reading this. His team reached out to me about coming on my show. Do you know Dr. Greger?

Vanessa Spina:
That's crazy. He reached out to you.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. What's crazy, too, is, like, he's been on my list of people to reach out to to try to get on the show. The Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, not the intermittent fasting podcast. So I just need to make a note, because I don't think I heard back from them. Okay. So he says, I listen to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythms. And all of that because of our circadian rhythms, our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight. So I try and my window is eleven to seven. So 11:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m.. I snack from 11:00 a.m. Kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time. I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Gregor's advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners? So we answered that in an earlier episode and then what I thought was super cool was Jeff wrote in an update because in his original email he was contemplating eating earlier based on this information about circadian rhythm and how we metabolize it better during the day. And then his update he said, melanie, I do agree with your opinion of Dr. Gregor. Now I'm really curious what I said. I did submit that question a few weeks ago and my journey had really only just begun at that point. I've since shifted to a 24 during the week, consuming what is essentially one meal a day. When I get home from work, I snack while preparing supper and I might have an after supper beverage, but that's it. Hunger is not really an issue on weekends. Breakfast is such a ritual that I can't really avoid it. I've been able to delay it a bit and have an eight hour window from ten to six or eleven to seven depending on when I prepare brunch for my kiddos. All that said, eight hour worked short term, but excessive snacking through the day had me shorten it. Big benefit is that I eat no food while out and about during the day. I have way more control waiting until I get home. Ps there is some good analysis of the early versus late debate on the lean gain site. All right, Jeff, so thank you for the update. And what I really, really liked about reading this update is I think it's really telling to show how we can when finding the intermittent fasting pattern that best works for know. On the one hand, we can look at the theories and what people say is best and you should do this or you should do that based on this or know. In this case, with Dr. Gregor talking about eating earlier, and for Jeff, that just doesn't work for like it makes him more hungry. He does more snacking and so he finds for him that a shorter one meal, a daytime window where he's not having that snacking issue and then having the longer window on the weekends when he's having family related things, that that's what works for him and I think a really important takeaway here, and this actually applies to sleep as well, is consistency can really do wonders compared to trying something that you think might be, quote, more perfect and not doing that consistently. So kind of like with sleep, they'll say that there's like an ideal window when you should be getting up, going to bed at this time and getting up at this time. It's been shown pretty evidently that even if you have a non conventional sleep pattern, like maybe you're going to bed later than most people and getting up later, it's more important that you do that and keep it consistent rather than try to force yourself into a different pattern and be inconsistent with it. And so with Jeff, I really love that he found that regardless of what is said about the early eating or not, that this later window works for him. And I think the same could go for any manifestation of intermittent fasting. So I just want to really encourage people when they are trying to find the intermittent fasting pattern that works for them. You have to find what works for you and the thing that helps you with your hunger and if you have inclinations to snack and also the social aspect. So I thought that was a pretty nice update. Do you have thoughts on it? Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with your point on finding what works for you. I think that's a recurring theme that we have on the podcast. Know, there's a lot of studies out there that show different things, but at the end of the day, you have to experiment and figure out what works for you, even if the studies are there to help point us in the right direction or maybe give us ideas on what to test or what might be beneficial for us or understanding the mechanisms and pathways. But yeah, you really have to tinker and figure out what works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you find, I know we've talked about this before, but if you eat earlier, do you find that it makes you want to snack more, or are you pretty good with closing the window and being done?

Vanessa Spina:
It's the opposite for me, and I've been doing this recently. I'm eating more because I'm in the third trimester of my pregnancy and I'm trying to split up my protein meals. And I don't love it. I feel really full. I don't really want to have dinner. I make myself have dinner anyway, and it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas normally I kind of go through the day more so just feeling really energetic and not feeling the sort of slowdown that you get from all that digestion, and then when I have my main meal, especially dinner, I really enjoy it. Now I'm just like, it's not what I want to be doing, but because of what I know about muscle and protein and what the fact that my body's building another body right now, I have to really stay on top of the protein and eat more meals and eat smaller meals. But I find that the nutrient density, if you eat really nutrient dense, like say a first meal earlier in the day, especially if it's mostly centered around protein, that you will not have blood sugar spikes. And it's when people have blood sugar spikes and then the blood sugar then falls below where it was before. That's when people experience a hunger and fixation on food, which was my experience. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but when I eat, prioritize protein and healthy fats, which I usually always do for my first meal, I usually only have carbs later in the day. Then I am full for hours. I just don't really think about food, and it usually makes me want to eat less.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. For me, once I start eating, I can just keep eating. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And I know that a lot of people have that experience. Like Dr. Sean Baker said that, and a lot of people have said how omed is really beneficial for just. Especially if you prefer that not thinking about food. But for me, I think because I do more protein and fat, it's just so nutrient dense that I get so full and I just don't think about food at all. It's more like, I don't want it. It's more an aversion at that point. Like, no, I don't want any more protein. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I wonder if there are different types of people when it comes to your. I'm guessing there are. Especially reading books surrounding addiction and food addiction, like brightline eating or Glenn Livingston's books. I think some people, food, whatever it is, just lights them. Like, that's the way I am. I was always the type that going to buffets and stuff, growing. Like, I would literally eat until I felt like, nauseous. And even then probably want to keep eating. Whereas some people, I think, just don't. I find it so interesting how the brain, how certain things light up people's brains and not other people's brains. I'm just so fascinated by that. So like what you were just saying about eating the protein and fat and being full, literally, I don't have a memory. I think I can confidently say I do not have a memory of eating a meal and feeling full. I have a memory of that, but of feeling full and being like, okay, I don't want any more food. Like, I always want more food. And this is the way I've been my entire life. And that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Because what my body needs is I need to have my one meal a day, and then I need time. Like, I need to go to bed because I need to get in, like, hours for my body to switch over to the fasted state, and then I'm good. But as long as I'm in that, quote, fed state, I want to just keep eating. And like I said, that's the way I've been my entire life. That's why a one meal day in the evening works so well for me.

Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever say, okay, say I put a plate of six chicken breasts in front of you. Do you feel like you would get through, like, maybe two or three, and then be like, I don't want any more of this?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no way.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, you just have six, and then you'd still want to have, like, seven. 8910 and six chicken breasts doesn't even sound like that much to me. That makes my stomach hurt to think.

Melanie Avalon:
Say, 20 chicken breasts. That's a better. So, like, 20 chicken breasts. Yeah, no, I would want to keep eating.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you could physically eat 20 chicken breasts.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you'd be surprised.

Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, though, because one of the questions that we have actually is about sleep and protein. And I was just thinking today, as I was on my way back home to meet up with you for this, how we are so different when it comes to that, because one of us likes to go to bed with not a super full stomach, but you actually love to go to bed with this full stomach. So, yeah, it's funny how I think there are definitely different types. I don't know what you'd classify them as, but most people, I got to say, maybe you're a bit of a unicorn. Most people can eat 20 chicken breasts. And that's why I always say the steakhouses give you the steak for free if you can eat the 20oz or whatever, because they know most people just get to a point where their body's like, I can't store these amino acids, so we have to stop. And that's my favorite thing about protein. But I think it was Amy Berger was telling me once, maybe on a podcast, how she also felt that way about protein, that she didn't find it to be that. I know. I'm sure there's probably listeners out there who feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is so interesting one. I find it interesting. At those restaurants, normally they make you eat it in the context of, well, I feel like oftentimes you have to eat it with like a side or something, or like the burger ones. You have to eat it with the bun and things like that. When I see those now, I'm like, I could do that. If it was just a steak, it would not even be remotely a problem.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I could too, but I think most people don't win the free steak. But any carnivores, carnivores are high protein eaters. We probably could be fine. We'd probably win it.

Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of ironic. I don't think I've ever engaged in one of those, even in my low carb days. It's kind of interesting, though. This speaks to food addiction and palatability. I know Rob Wolf talks about this a lot. Like in those eating contest things. Oftentimes, Rob always talks about this one show or episode where the guy would be trying to eat all the stuff and be literally sick and couldn't keep going. But then he would. And I think he was eating like ice cream. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
If you switch from savory to sweet, you can keep going.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. He added in fries, and once he added in fries, then he could keep eating the ice cream. Which speaks to just the overwhelming problem with the food system today.

Vanessa Spina:
I was just interviewing him on my podcast yesterday, talking about food system.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we need to get him on this show. I was waiting for them to move. So they've moved and everything now. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're like setting up a element compound in Montana there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my going to. I need to email him. I need to email Gregor.

Vanessa Spina:
They can be buddies.

Melanie Avalon:
We can do an episode, have them both did.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we had most of the podcasts. We were like, kind of talking about people who are silly when it comes to nutrition.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? I want to listen to it. When does it come out?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it'll be out in a couple of weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
Two of my favorite people together.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. It was funny because we were kind of talking about. He made this really interesting point. It's the last point I'll make on this episode, but he said how we were talking about the health at every size movement, and then there's these different people who kind of sometimes will attack these different protocols and things that we recommend or follow. And the whole point of paleo or paleolithic protocols or keto or intermittent fasting is to help people feel better, right? But it almost gets sometimes twisted around to the point where it's like, oh, you're making people restrict too much and you're creating stress for people. He really feels that a lot. And he says that he's starting to get back on his more. What's the word for it?

Melanie Avalon:
Pro.

Vanessa Spina:
More like, what is it called when you're a big advocate for someone? Zealot? I think he said, I'm getting back on my zealous high horse, or something like that. Because he's like, no, these things that we do. Paleo helps people who have inflammation and who have digestive issues and who are dealing with chronic pain. He's like, this is a solution to help people who are in pain. Why is it being twisted around into something that's harmfully restrictive or stressful or whatever? And I was like, I never thought about that. But the way he phrased it was so perfect. So we spent a lot of the podcast talking about that and just how these protocols, like intermittent fasting and keto and prioritizing protein, it's really to help people who want help. There's a lot of people who need help, who have chronic pain, who have chronic inflammation, who have. I more so work with people who want to improve their body composition, but there's so few people in our society who are actually metabolically healthy. People need these interventions more than ever. So, yeah, we were kind of talking a lot about that on the episode.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that so much. And I know we're talking about because I know he kind of went through a period, I felt, where he felt like maybe he was more focusing on the issue of people being over restrictive. Like, he was kind of like, in that vibe. I'm guessing that's what he means by now, coming out more on the other side. I mean, I know he's always been pro paleo and pro things, but I feel like he goes through times where he's been not over fasting and not overdoing things.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we talked about that, too.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, nice.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because I know he has a pretty strong opinion on not over fasting. And he said that his last talk that he gave was, like, longevity. Are we trying too hard? But he gets really passionate about the fact that there are these people who are zealously wanting people to not have any restrictions. And restrictions are important, right. If you don't restrict yourself from crossing a busy highway, you're going to die. So why is the term restriction always in this very negative context or negative light. When restrictions can be so helpful, they can literally save our lives.

Melanie Avalon:
Highway lanes are the reason we can drive anywhere. Like, if we didn't have stoplights and if we didn't have lanes like those lines on the road, it would just be. I mean, have you been to Rome? Yeah. I'm sure you. I guess. I guess we would get places. Because my family is forbidden. We cannot go back to Rome. It stressed my mom out so bad.

Vanessa Spina:
The way they drive. Pete loves it. He's like, it's organized chaos.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember one day we just sat at, like, one of those because basically, for listeners who haven't been to Rome, they have basically the equivalent of roundabouts, but there's nothing in the middle. So it's not like a circle. It's just an open circle. And you just drive in and then you just drive out and there's like, no, we literally just sat on the curb and watched the cars. And they're going, like, not slow. I don't know how they do it.

Vanessa Spina:
Your mom would not like Vietnam or Hanoi either.

Melanie Avalon:
They do that there, too.

Vanessa Spina:
There's just a lot of people on, like, mopeds and motorcycles. And it's really hard to cross the street. You have to just wait for a gap, then you cross and you have to run. It's like, frogger.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my gosh. Frogger. Whoa. I forgot about Frogger.

Vanessa Spina:
Pete has this time lapse video of me trying to cross the street, and it looks like. Like it took me like half an hour to get to him on the other side because there was no opening and I thought I was going to.

Melanie Avalon:
Die with the logs.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Don't you jump from log to log. Sorry. I'm, like, stuck on the frogger train now. Yeah. Wait, I want to see this video of you. It's really funny.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm just like. I go forward, Elaine in the back, and then I'm just like, yeah. He was just laughing so hard and it's so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
That's something else that will. Speaking of our discussion about fake time, have you ever, like, especially if you see an aerial shot of a crowd, like a Disney world or something, how people and crowds don't run into each other? That's mind blowing if you think about it.

Vanessa Spina:
It is. Yeah, it really is. I think about that all the time when I'm. Sometimes I'm weaving through a crowd and I'm like, we have these sensors or something around us that give us some kind of indication.

Melanie Avalon:
Think about it. Especially, like, crowds that are really crunched together.

Vanessa Spina:
People rarely collide.

Melanie Avalon:
They don't.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really funny. I think about that all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy. It's mind blowing because think about how and these crowds can be moving fast. Like, you can have tons of people moving really fast in a tight crowd. Nobody runs into each other how and people are like going around each other. I mean, things to think about. Friends in your 2024? Oh, my goodness. Well, okay. I'm actually really excited about next. I'm always excited about next episode, but I'm excited about next episode with the question about protein and sleep because I did a lot of research. So teaser for next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@iofpodcast.com or you can go to iappodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode350 and you can get all the Stuff We Like ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to chat with you on the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise. Happy New year.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year, everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon:
And no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 04

Episode 346: Semaglutide, Ozempic, GLP-1, Glucagon, Gastric Emptying, Muscle Loss, Insulin Resistance, Exclusion Zone Water, The Mind Blown Podcast, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review

Welcome to Episode 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast AndGet 3 Lbs Of Free-Range, Organic Chicken Wings For Free In Every Order For A Year, Plus $20 Off Your First Box!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Receive $30 Off Your First Month, 2 CGM Sensors, Free Shipping, And Professional Nutritionist Support!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For Big Holiday Savings!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off, PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter, And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3 lbs of free-range, organic chicken wings for free in every order for a year, plus $20 off your first box!

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Receive $30 Off Your First Month, 2 CGM Sensors, Free Shipping, And Professional Nutritionist Support!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For Big Holiday Savings!

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Candice - This is potentially a strange question, but I’m wondering how semaglutide works.

Listener Q&A: Sunny - What do you think about ozempic & the ilk for weight loss?

Berberine Attenuates Hyperglycemia by Inhibiting the Hepatic Glucagon Pathway in Diabetic Mice

Antidiabetic Properties of Berberine: From Cellular Pharmacology to Clinical Effects

Berberine promotes glucagon-like peptide-1 (7–36) amide secretion in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats

AVALONX: Get 10% Off avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com! available for Pre-Order today!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing wonderfully. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. We are recording this so far in advance. I'm looking at the week that this comes out, which is the first week of December and I think I don't want to jinx it. Well, man, there might be multiple products coming out and multiple things coming out for me this month, but I think this is the week that I might be releasing my third podcast. Maybe that's the plan. So, I'm going to go ahead and say what it is. So, Scott Emmens, the fabulous Scott Emmens at MD Logic. He's been on this show multiple times. He and I are just like friends for life. And it's kind of a problem because we have a lot of business calls because we're constantly creating supplements together. And we actually have another side project we might be doing, which is very exciting, but we tend to just go on these really random tangents and talk for an hour about not work-related things.

And so, we realized one day that we should maybe have a podcast about all of this. Actually, started when we had a crazy theory about the Mandela Effect that we realized. So, we're going to be launching the Mind Blown Podcast hopefully this week. It's been so fun recording it thus far. Basically, each episode, it's so fun. So, each episode we start off by, we bring to the table a mind blown fact to share. So, we share one and then we rate each other's mind blown facts and we talk about it, and then we have the topic. Like I said, the first two episodes, it was going to be one episode, but of course, with Scott and I, it ended up going longer. So, it's a two parter about the Mandela Effect and our crazy theory surrounding it. And then yeah, there's some really good episodes after that, each episode will be an a la carte, like, mind blown topic.

Vanessa Spina: That's so exciting. Congrats.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's really fun to be podcasting, not about something health related. [chuckles] I mean, I'm sure some of it will be health related, but it's a different genre.

Vanessa Spina: That's so fun.

Melanie Avalon: So yeah. Do you think you'll start your other podcast some time?

Vanessa Spina: I think about it. Right now, I like it just as a thought you know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: It's like a happy thought. I'm like, “I love to do a podcast on that. I feel like I have so much to share,” but then I'm like, today I was like, “I could do a podcast about how to create products because there're just so many different topics that would be fun to get into.” But yeah, I think doing one on consciousness and mindset and consciously, deliberately cultivating a beautiful life, that's the one that I think would be just, like, a pure pleasure to do. So yeah, it's a happy thought right now, but whenever I mention, like, definitely listeners of my current podcast are like, “Oh, I would love to hear about that.” So, I can feel the joy of launching it. And I'm so happy for you and Scott because I feel like it's just going to just bring more joy to your life.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Yeah, it is so fun. It's really wonderful that I just so thoroughly enjoy all the podcasting stuff. Like, it's just so fun and they all fulfill different needs in a way. Like with the Melanie Avalon I'm learning, and I'm getting to learn about these topics and talk to amazing guests and meet new people. And then this one is my besties, friendship, nourishing for the soul and then talk about fasting. And I feel like the audience here, actually they've been here for so long, so it's kind of like family and friend’s adventure. And then with Scott thing, it's just kind of like a new, really fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you both.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. I also might be releasing, hopefully this month, our next supplement. Hopefully we're getting the final formulation figured out right now.

Vanessa Spina: Is this the spirulina one?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, I'm really excited because yes, we're releasing spirulina. We're working the final formulation right now, trying to get the best formulation, but there are so many health benefits to spirulina and I'm obsessed with it. It's basically, like, just one of the most nutrient-rich things you can get in a tiny little package, and it's great for detox and trace minerals and just so many things. It's like a superfood. I don't like that word, but I'm excited about it. But that's just a teaser because we're figuring it out all out right now, even though by the time this airs, I probably will have been talking about it a lot at that point. So yes, so listeners, if they would like to get updates about that, which I am so, so excited about. They can go to avalonx.us/emaillist. I'm just so excited. I can't wait till it manifests. And I really want the packaging. I love design. Like, Vanessa, we've talked about this. Like, we love packaging design and such.

Vanessa Spina: I just finished doing that today for the new Tone Device. So, like, I've been buzzing all day about it.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it fun?

Vanessa Spina: It's the best. But today we’re doing because the cover-- the boxes are already fully designed with the new second generation but today I got the samples, so I got touch them and feel them and see them. And the main difference is that it says Generation 2. But were also just adding all the logos because we finished doing all the third-party lab testing. And I'm now an expert [laughs] on third party lab testing for electronics. Because after the past few years of doing it, it's always a little bit nerve wracking because you're like, “What if the test fails or it comes back with like there's some kind of issue?” And we just got everything back. Everything is fully, fully certified and approved. But there's a lot of different regulations because I sell in multiple markets. So, the US has FCC for electronics and there's a whole bunch of them. But, like, in Europe, you have EN standards and RoHS. And then there's also UL testing for safety. And there's another one. Oh, and then there's like, California Proposition 65 that nothing in your products. Devices can have any of the certain materials or you have to disclose it. And it's not just the product, it's also the packaging.

So, it's a lot of stuff, but everything is fully approved. And we thought it would because the first generation all was-- so there wasn't any concern with it, but always just feels good to get everything, get all the certificates and then officially put all of those logos on the box and put all the details and everything. We were just finishing that. But I love it. [chuckles] I love that part. I love that part of design. I just love the creation process and getting the packages. And I'm now selling an accessory, which is the charging cable, because almost every week someone emails me and says that they lost their charging cable. So, I decided, like a year ago to just start making them and selling them as an accessory. And then we made this cute box with it. But I just got the actual finished box today, so it was really fun to get that and get it photographed and yeah, I just love it so much. I love all the design, the testing. I just love all the aspects of creating products. I don't know, since I was a little kid.

Melanie Avalon: I was just about to say, “Same here.” I was thinking, “We're so similar.” And I was thinking, ever since I'm like a little kid, I was, like, creating stuff.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, same. That's what my mom used to always say. I was just so creative. I was creating or inventing things and then selling them. Like, trying to sell them either, like, on the street [laughs] that sounds weird, on our sidewalk.

Melanie Avalon: What were some of the things you tried to sell?

Vanessa Spina: So, I would make jewelry. Like, at first, I started out with just friendship bracelets. And when my parents would go play tennis at their tennis court, I would go and sell them to people for, like, a dollar, and everyone would buy one, I guess because I was, like, a kid and you want to support kids. And then I upgraded because my mom would go on business trips to the Philippines and she'd bring back all these beads. She'd bring up these big bags of beads that she would get at the markets there. So, I would make all this jewelry earrings and necklaces, and I would sell them around whenever there was block parties or garage sales or things like that. But I had individual little plastic bags for each one. And then I printed a logo on the computer, like, in paint [chuckles] onto stickers--

Melanie Avalon: Paint. Windows 95.

Vanessa Spina: Doesn't that make you happy to think about Paint?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, I'm getting hit with, like, memories. Oh, the memories are flooding in. They're flooding. Do you remember Kid Pix? Did you ever use that?

Vanessa Spina: No. [laughs] What's that one?

Melanie Avalon: That was like software with-- but it was similar to Paint but upgraded.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that stuff makes me so happy to think about. I loved paint. Such simple times. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know, all the colors. Do you remember, like, the color wheel? It was like, ah, you could pick the colors.

Vanessa Spina: It was so good. Like, I want to do Paint right now. I’ve got to google some old-time machine version of Paint. It was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: You would have loved Kid Pix.

Vanessa Spina: It sounds similar.

Melanie Avalon: It was like Paint, but it was, like, for kids. And it had more stuff.

Vanessa Spina: Every time you say it, I'm like I feel like I played that at one of my friend's houses or something.

Melanie Avalon: You probably did. Do you remember going to computer class? I wonder do they still do that?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I loved computer class. I think it was one of my favorites.

Melanie Avalon: I always thought it was so, like, they were talking down to us. I was like, “I know how to do this. This is not complicated.” [chuckles] Why are we here?

Vanessa Spina: Computer class is probably just class now. Whereas, like--

Melanie Avalon: It probably is.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: But even you saying computer class makes me happy. I'm like, “Oh, I loved computer class.”

Melanie Avalon: I know. Did you do the typing games to learn how to type?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, typing tutor. There was typing tutor. I think we had one called

Melanie Avalon: I did JumpStart.

Vanessa Spina: It was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: It was stressful, though. Okay, that was, like, the one computer game, because it was like, you have to type the things fast. I was really stressful, especially when it was in class and you had to type words fast enough. I don't know. I didn't like the pressure of that. I'd rather just learn it on my own. Oh, do you know why? Oh, this was something. Oh, wait, there's like a fun fact and I don't know the answer. Did you know with the keyboard, the way it is set up is not the most efficient way? It doesn't really make sense the way it's set up right now. And so, they've tried to change it because I was reading something about how hard it is to change things in society, and they've tried to change it to make it more efficient, but you just can't because people are so used to the way it is now that they won't use a new manifestation, even if it's better.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that makes sense. I've also heard that about our mathematical system, like the Egyptian system or something was way better and made a lot more sense. And the way that we learn it now is weird and kind of clumsy.

Melanie Avalon: It's kind of upsetting. Like, if you're just in too deep, you just can't--

Vanessa Spina: Paradigm shifts are really hard, are really hard. Like the most mind-blowing thing-

Melanie Avalon: Oh, good. Let me add this to my list.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you definitely should. Gerald Pollack. I'm not sure if you've interviewed him or heard about him,-

Melanie Avalon: Yes, reading about him.

Vanessa Spina: -The Fourth Phase of Water. His book was the biggest mind-blowing thing that I've read about the fact that we have this gel like water that forms inside our cells, and it forms these sheets of honeycomb. They're like honeycomb, like hexagonal or is that hexagonal? These honeycomb layers around structures and so it's called structured water. It's kind of like a snowflake, but it's really amazing because we can actually charge it. And infrared heat charges that water. And so, he discovered this and he was basing it on the work of some of his colleagues and predecessors, and it's really, really fascinating. So, they have this fourth phase water that they actually put two electrodes into charged water and it was able to light a light bulb.

So, our bodies are actually batteries and we have this water inside of us that is like a gel and we basically can charge it up by going into the sun. Like, the sun is 50% infrared and infrared energy is all around us. Like, if you had infrared goggles on, you could see energy coming from everything around you. But the sun gives us a lot of charge and it charges up that water. So that water, he also calls it exclusion zone water and it expands. And when you-- this is the part that, okay, that already blew my mind, because it's like, okay, we need to redo all of science and redo all of biology with this understanding. When you do cold exposure, like cold plunging, you basically are doing it a lot of ancient cultures or Northern European cultures, they do it in the winter because there's no sun. And by getting cold, it then forces our bodies to generate infrared heat from our core and that charges up our cells and gives us the same kind of energy that we would get from the sun in the summer, which is like, amazing, but also red-light therapy. The infrared on that also charges up and so does infrared sauna. But it's so amazing. I got to interview him on my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: You did?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and I was just--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I want to interview him. That's amazing. When did you interview him?

Vanessa Spina: Was like maybe six or eight months ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, recently?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And you will love him. He's one of the kindest, most down to earth people I've ever interviewed. And it's amazing because you and I talk about this all the time, but you have these-- I don't know if you can even call him a scientist-

Melanie Avalon: Legend.

Vanessa Spina: -yeah, legend who've done so much, made these incredible discoveries, and you'll talk to them and they're just like the most down to earth people in the world, even though you wouldn't expect that. And then you talk to other people who haven't really accomplished that much and they're like not down, you know what I mean? They have overinflated egos and stuff. So, it's so nice when you meet someone like that and yeah, he's just so incredible. You have to interview him and read his books because what's really fascinating too, is apparently Russian scientists had discovered it a long time ago and then when it was sort of like challenged by the international scientific community-

Melanie Avalon: They didn't get backlash?

Vanessa Spina: -yeah, there was a lot of backlash. And so, at the time, Russia was embarrassed. So, they made the scientists who discovered it publicly say that he was wrong. But Gerald Pollack worked with his mentee or someone who was like an assistant or mentee of his, and he said that he knew that he was right and he knew that he was right until the time that he died. But he had to publicly say that he was wrong just to not bring shame on the country. And so, thankfully, Dr. Pollack has taken on the work. But it's really fascinating. Absolutely fascinating, because our bodies do get energized by the light. We are learning that. We do get energy in other ways. And it all kind of goes back to the mitochondria, because this exclusion zone water forms inside the mitochondria. And that's one of the reasons the mitochondria cristae have all those folds, because the more folds there are, the more exclusion zone water can form around those structures. So, it's most mind-blowing thing I learned in 2023. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Vanessa Spina: Paradigm shift. It's like we need to redo all understanding of biology and physiology and medicine everything based on this. But are we going to? That the quantum sort of like the whole quantum physics, quantum biology sphere that we now have technology to learn about, but it's teaching us things that we have to rebuild everything. And that's so hard to do.

Melanie Avalon: It's kind of like the book I just finished and I'm interviewing him on Monday. It's called, What's Gotten Into You: The Story of Your Body's Atoms, from the Big Bang Through Last Night's Dinner. And it's basically, the history of molecular physics and quantum physics and atoms and everything, like I just said, from the Big Bang to you. And my takeaway from that book, which I've been listening to while putting sequins on my Taylor Swift outfit, it's a nice contrast, is that we have no idea about anything. And it's crazy, the history of people finding ideas and having theories and being discredited or looked down upon, but then they turn out to be right, but then we still don't even know. And there's so much cognitive bias that's kind of like a theme of his throughout the book, is that it's really hard to see beyond biases based on preexisting evidence or what we want to see. And I don't know, I walked away from the book feeling both very excited and empowered and also feeling like we don't know anything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know the feeling. [laughs] It's like the more you know the more you realize you don't know. And it's an interesting-- it's like mixed emotions for sure. But I think it's also a sign that you are actually learning more. Like, the more humbled you become of how little we know. [chuckles] But I also love to listen to audiobooks while I'm doing stuff around the house. I love that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so fun. It's so satisfying because doing stuff around the house or putting sequins on Taylor Swift outfits or cleaning is, like, satisfying in and of itself. But then listening to learning knowledge is so satisfying. I don't want to just sit there and listen. Not that it's wasted time. Not that we need to be multitasking super productive 24/7 but and I do feel really nice when I combine them. So, you get all the dopamine from the learning and the cleaning, ah, so fun.

Vanessa Spina: One thing I learned from Alison Armstrong is women get a lot of oxytocin release from repetitive hand motions. So, if you're doing some kind of fine work, like detailed work, like, needlepoint or putting sequins or knitting, you actually get a lot of oxytocin from that. So that's probably extra.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So, when I’m adding those sequins.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, I should stop this train, but I'm just thinking about little things when I was little, did you do the thing with the bright, like, the rainbow? It was like stretchy rubber band things and you put them on like what's it called?

Vanessa Spina: Like a loom.

Melanie Avalon: A loom, [laughs] okay.

Vanessa Spina: A 100%.

Melanie Avalon: And you like braid it, they braid it together.

Vanessa Spina: It made me so happy.

Melanie Avalon: I was never quite sure what the purpose was of the finished product. But you made this thing, but what do you do with it? It was like just a thing. Kind of like [chuckles] one of the things I would make is when I discovered making glue chips. Did you make these? You put glue in a cup and then you take paint and swirl it in and you can make like, rainbow glue chips. But what do you do with these glue chips?

Vanessa Spina: It's just the activity, the intrinsic value of the activity itself.

Melanie Avalon: And then like, the artifact created from it. Oh, how about the spinney paper thing where you drop the paint in and it makes--

Vanessa Spina: That gives me goosebumps. It makes me so happy to think about.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so happy. Like with a color that drops it, but then when it stops, it never quite looked as brilliant as you thought it was going to-- I didn't think it ever looked as brilliant as I thought it was going to look while in the spinning phase.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there was one with detergent and water and color drop.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it jumped away from each other.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, all that stuff. We had this one book and it was like activities for kids that are like sciencey. And I was always like, “Can we do it.” [laughs] But makes me happy to think about them. I got to redo all them with Luca.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Oh, yes. Did you have the craft series of books? Craft kids or something.

Vanessa Spina: Probably. It sounds really familiar.

Melanie Avalon: That was my favorite. They had a lot of great science books as well. Shall we jump into some fasting-related topics?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, Vanessa and I are so excited to talk about this. We have had multiple questions come in about Ozempic and semaglutide. So here are two of them and then we're just going to talk about the topic in general. These are both from Facebook. Sunny asked, “What do you think about Ozempic and the elk for weight loss? Effective and presumably safe or scary with three question marks.” She says, “And what are the safe alternatives that will give results if your insurance won't cover it?” And then Candice, also from Facebook, asked she said, “Hi, I love the podcast. This is potentially a strange question, but I'm wondering how semaglutide works. I am not interested in taking it. I asked because one of my parents started taking it. I looked into how it worked and based on what I know about insulin, it makes no sense to me. My parents had been doing IF and saw great results. Then he got really sick, had to stop IF to recover, and he gained a lot of weight. One of his doctors put him on semaglutide. He lost no weight in two months on it. Now he's been back doing IF for two months and is gaining weight. Did he become insulin resistant? I'm truly baffled.” Okay, I have so many thoughts about this. Vanessa, would you like to tell us a little bit about semaglutide?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. I did a whole episode on semaglutide this summer on my podcast. I was doing a bunch of research for it, but it's really fascinating to learn about the actual mechanism of action. So semaglutide itself is a peptide and it actually is sold under two main brand names. So, the one that you mentioned is Ozempic and that was actually first approved in 2017 as a treatment for type 2 diabetes. But in 2021, the FDA approved the same drug under a different brand name, which is Wegovy. Everyone talks about Ozempic, so Wegovy is the brand that basically is for weight loss, but they're both the same thing. They're both semaglutide and they're both made by a pharmaceutical company called Novo Nordisk.

So, what's really interesting about them in terms of how they work, which I think is a big question that's on everyone's mind. And so, when it comes to weight loss and weight gain, it's really about energy balance. And so, you have to create either a deficit or unbalance that energetic balance by either consuming less calories, less energy intake, or generating more energy expenditure. And the way that semaglutide works is actually reducing caloric intake because it suppresses appetite, like to the point where people have not much interest in food at all. And so, it suppresses appetite, but it also has a number of other mechanisms of action that are really fascinating. So, most people are losing weight because they're just not hungry and so they're consuming fewer calories. And so that is creating a loss of body weight/body fat, because I'm going to get into that as well, because it's not necessarily all body fat, which is the concerning-- One of the concerning parts about it, because I find it to be more so scary than anything else.

And so, there is a peptide in the body called GLP-1. It's glucagon like peptide and it's basically a glucagon like peptide receptor agonist. So, drugs either come in the category of agonist or antagonist. So, an agonist binds to the receptor on a cell in the same way that the actual molecule would in the body. So semaglutide mimics the action of glucagon like peptide 1 or GLP-1. And so, it binds to the receptors in the same way that the body actually perceives it to be GLP-1, even though it's not GLP-1. [chuckles] So that's why it is an agonist, whereas antagonist will also bind to the receptor but actually blocks the action or the mechanism. So, the reason that you can't actually just use GLP-1 is GLP-1 has a really short half-life, it's like 2 minutes, whereas semaglutide extends that half-life to about seven days. So that's why people get an injection once a week if they are taking it regularly. Their chemical formula is very, very similar. GLP-1 is a polypeptide that has either 36 or 37 amino acids with a chemical formula that's very similar to semaglutide, which is a polypeptide with 31 amino acids. But the basics of it is that semaglutide is similar enough to GLP-1 that the body recognizes it as GLP-1.

So, the way that it works is GLP-1 is actually a hormone that is released from the gastrointestinal tract or the gut when you eat. And one of the roles, just one of the roles of GLP-1 is to prompt the body to release more insulin and produce more insulin. So that actually reduces blood glucose by increasing glucose uptake in the muscles so that secretes insulin or produces more insulin. And that then pushes some of our glucose into the muscles, gets it out of the bloodstream, and it also decreases glucose production in the liver. So, it inhibits glucagon which is the antagonist hormone to insulin, because glucagon causes glycogen breakdown in the liver, which actually raises our blood glucose levels. So some of the effects that take place because of the GLP-1 secreted by the gut really reduce blood sugar spikes after eating by stimulating this insulin secretion and inhibiting the glucagon. But that's not the only thing it does.

GLP-1 also slows gastric emptying. So that's the time it takes for food to empty out of the stomach. And so, it takes longer for the food that you eat that ends up in your stomach to then go to the small intestine, where most of the food is then absorbed into the body. So, if you delay gastric emptying, you also slow down and stabilize blood glucose responses to your meal, which is another way that GLP-1 limits blood glucose spikes during that post mealtime. And because the blood sugar is going to be so stable, you're not going to have that blood glucose spike. And then the fall, which is what makes people typically feel really hungry, is when their glucose spikes and then crashes afterwards. Another thing that GLP-1 does is it actually acts on the brain. And there's some really aggressive research that is taking place right now. University of Florida researchers are currently researching that GLP-1 that is secreted by the gut is different from GLP-1 secreted by the brain. And so, they're suppressing eating via two independent circuits, which is one of the reasons it is so powerful as an appetite suppressant.

So, the main reason that people need to take semaglutide is, again, because of that short half-life of GLP-1, when it only lasts for 2 minutes as opposed to seven days. In terms of side effects, this is one of the many scary aspects of this to me. But the list of side effects is so massive. Nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, constipation, abdominal pain. It goes on and on and on, but one of the ones that's been getting a lot of headlines is this paralysis of gastric emptying. So, people are having, like, their stomachs are becoming paralyzed from using semaglutide, which doesn't surprise me because you're using something that is-- like if you think of a half-life being 2 minutes compared to seven days, it's so much more powerful than our endogenously produced GLP-1. So, it does cause a lot of weight loss. There were five big studies that were done on semaglutide called the STEP trials. And unfortunately, one of the big things that is really alarming and scary about these peptides is that people are losing a lot of weight, but it's not all fat. So, this is my Peter Attia quote he said-- I'm not sure when exactly he said this, but he said, “That almost every patient that we put on this drug semaglutide has lost muscle mass at a rate that alarms me.”

So not all of the studies, the STEP trials measured body composition, but there was one of them in particular that did. And in that one, the proportion of their weight loss was 39% from lean body mass, so almost 40%. Whereas standard weight loss, if you're doing it well, you're losing at the most 25% lean body mass. Like you do not want to be losing 39% or 40% of your lean body mass and only 60% coming from body fat. So, in the STEP 1 study, the subjects who were on the semaglutide, they lost 43% body fat and lost 57% of their lean body mass, which is absolutely massive. And then there was one other study where body composition was measured and it was called the SUSTAIN 8 trial. It had 178 people and the average proportion of lean body mass reduction was 40%. So, people are losing huge amounts of weight, but a lot of it is coming from their lean body mass. And that big part of that is muscle which you don't want to lose, especially after the age of 40. But there're only certain situations where people are morbidly obese where these kinds of rates of lean body mass loss are less of a risk because someone has that much body fat, it's more likely to come from body fat. But people who are taking this, who are not morbidly obese are going to be losing a lot of lean body mass.

So, there're a lot of studies that have come out where they compared semaglutide to a placebo group. And like I said, the amount of weight loss with semaglutide was pretty high. There was one study that was two years long, was really interesting because they did like 104 weeks and most of the weight loss happened in the first year and the second year they just maintained. So, I'm not sure what's happening, but a lot of people have concerns about what happens when they go off it and I think that's something that we have yet to see because in this study that was two years, the participants lost an average of 35 pounds in the first year. But the second year they just maintained and sometimes went up a little bit and they're still on it. So, what happens when they go off it? The chances that they're going to be able to maintain the weight loss I think are pretty slim. And so, you may end up in a situation where you lose a bunch of weight, 40% of it is lean body mass and then when you go back to your normal appetite levels, when you're no longer injecting yourself once a week, you're just going to gain fat back. And that's how people end up with really poor body composition where their body fat levels are super high, body fat percentages is really, really high.

So, there've been a lot of headlines lately about the side effects. There was one I think on CNN saying hundreds of thousands of people are having this paralysis of their digestion which is just like unimaginable to me, like your stomach is just not emptying at all. I'm not sure how severe that is, how easy it is to fix. But also, in the studies people had a lot of adverse events and most of them were gastrointestinal and really not pleasant. So that's really how it works in terms of the specific questions, in finding something that's a safe alternative. The thing that stands out the most to me about these drugs or these peptides is like well that's what a lot of the stuff that we do in terms of lifestyle and nutrition, that's what they do for me, like prioritizing protein suppresses my appetite. And it's because of the satiety hormones released from the gut and released from the brain. So doing a lot of these kinds of strategies, intermittent fasting for me, carbohydrate restriction, prioritizing protein, all of this stuff really works for me to get these same benefits at the same time teaching me healthy habits that I can maintain easily without a risk of side effects without a risk of losing tons of lean body mass. So, for me, I don't know of any pharmaceutical safe alternatives, but I think that's what we try to talk about a lot on this podcast is the safe alternatives that are more lifestyle, nutrition oriented that I think over the long term are going to be much more beneficial.

And as far as Candice, when you were asking about your family member who did not lose any weight in two months on semaglutide and then going back to intermittent fasting and gaining weight, potentially becoming insulin resistant in terms of the mechanisms, you know semaglutide is pushing out more insulin and causing the body to produce more insulin. So, it's possible that some, like the basal insulin levels could have been raised through going on it. I'm surprised that he didn't lose any weight. But a lot of people, like, some people lose a ton of weight and some people don't. So, it kind of seems to be very dependent on the person. It could have given him potentially some kind of higher basal insulin resistance or sorry, higher basal insulin, which can be measured by fasting insulin. So, you could have his fasting insulin tested to see what that's at because that might help shed some light on it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Awesome. Okay, thank you for all of that information. I love talking about all of this. I'll put a link in the show notes and it's so interesting because I didn't realize the name. You said the company was Nordisk, right?

Vanessa Spina: Novo Nordisk.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'll put a link into the show notes. There's a January 2023 review published in Diabetes, Obesity, and Metabolism called Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review and it provides an overview of the I think now there's actually been 8 STEP trials on semaglutide. And what's funny, because that was the first thing I read when I sat down to research this. And reading it, I was like, “Oh, wow, this is really impressive,” [chuckles] because it talks about the weight loss throughout the trials and compared to placebo and the beneficial effects on blood sugar and potentially even cardiovascular benefits, then it really minimizes the side effects. I think basically it says that around 75% have GI side effects, but that few discontinue the treatment. The numbers it gives across the different trials, I mean, they're losing around 14.9% to 17.4% weight loss compared to the placebo groups, which is really low, anywhere from like, 0.8% up to 4.5%.

I didn't realize this when reading it, but I scrolled down to the bottom after you said the name of the company. It says that basically it was funded by Novo Nordisk. So, like, oh, that makes sense [laughs] that it's the company creating these drugs that is funding this research. Something I wanted to comment on, for Candice's question about the insulin issue and Vanessa was touching on this a little bit. I was also just like, at the beginning, confused about this because we talk so much about how we want to reduce insulin release and so much of our diet and our lifestyle and fasting is all about minimizing insulin release. So how can something a glucagon like peptide 1, a GLP-1, a hormone that is increasing insulin release, how is that a potentially beneficial thing for weight loss? And what's really interesting about the context of this and Vanessa was talking about this, but just to dive a little deeper into it, that insulin glucagon connection.

Diving into this, I'm actually thinking it's kind of crazy. We don't talk about glucagon more like we're so focused on insulin. But the primary issue of hyperglycemia, so high blood sugar in diabetes, it's not from well, technically, way down the line, it's from the food you ate, but it's not from the food you just ate. It's from the liver producing it. That's the majority of the burden of the blood sugar. So, glucagon releasing blood sugar is the, I don't want to say the primary issue, but it is a huge issue. And there's been even rodent trials where they have inhibited the rodent's ability to produce glucagon in diabetic rodents, not change their insulin levels, and it normalizes their diabetes. So, the role of glucagon is huge. And so, if you have glucagon releasing blood sugar and then insulin trying to keep it down, if you have that battle going on 24/7, A, it's very exhausting for your pancreas and your insulin. And B, it creates a state where you're constantly having to release insulin to mitigate your high resting blood sugar levels in the fasted state as well as after you're eating.

And what's really, really interesting about GLP-1, peptides, hormones, is that the effect on glucagon, so they reduce glucagon, which is creating this issue of high fasted blood sugars. The effect on insulin is glucose dependent, so they don't cause the pancreas to release insulin in the fasted state. It's from when the body is metabolizing glucose. So basically, the benefit of GLP-1 is it's actually creating helping your body. I'm not saying this as an advertisement for semaglutide, but GLP-1, which semaglutide is acting like is helping create the ideal state of insulin and glucagon in your body. It's helping create a state where you're not releasing blood sugar all the time, not having high fasting blood sugar. And then you are releasing insulin when you need it, when you're eating carbs and sugar, and you're able to properly store that and it increases insulin sensitivity. So, I think that can help explain why it's actually helpful with the insulin release. There's like some context to it. And then what's interesting as well about the muscle piece is because I read an article also by Peter Attia, I was looking at it again, I think it was-- so you said you listened to him talk about that on a podcast, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was from a podcast I think or from an article that he wrote about a podcast, maybe transcript.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's, yeah, because I was reading that article as well because he was talking about that 8 trial that you mentioned.

Vanessa Spina: SUSTAIN 8. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The SUSTAIN 8. He also mentioned. I find this really interesting because I agree that the muscle loss is very scary. I have two thoughts to complicate it further because I think okay, step back. I think the majority of people, and I don't know this as a fact, but I would assume the majority of people, a majority of people going on semaglutide for weight loss on their own rogue or with the doctor, they might not be prioritizing protein, they might just be taking it and not eating. So, [chuckles] they’re just like losing weight, fat and muscle. What's really interesting is apparently, despite those shockingly high muscle losses that were seen in the STEP trials in these STEP 1 patients, even though they lost a ton, they actually increased their lean mass to body fat mass proportion by 3%. And in the SUSTAIN 8, they increased their lean mass to fat mass proportion ratio by 1%. So, while it was a shocking amount of weight loss and muscle loss, their body composition was actually slightly better in the muscle to fat ratio.

That said and this is what Peter talks about in his article, he talks about how maybe that muscle loss is something that I don't want to say is okay, but people who are severely obese or overweight, they can afford it if they maintain muscle thereafter. But for people who are-- so many people are like normal weight and using this or they're only a little bit overweight and they're trying to use this to lose weight. And I just think the muscle loss is a big concern and especially if you're not prioritizing maintaining muscle. I would be so curious. I would love to see studies on semaglutide in people on a very high protein diet. So, people who are like and who are resistant training-- I'd be really curious if they experience the muscle loss or not. I don't know if we have studies on that. So, stepping back from all of it and I didn't know I'm so glad you talked about that. I did not know that, Vanessa, about the half-life and the long-term effects, you were talking about people like the stomach paralysis. That's terrifying. When I first learned about semaglutide and I learned that it makes your stomach, like, delays gastric emptying, I mean, I have such a fear of constipation. I was like, “Nope.” I was like, “You cannot pay me to put that in my body.” That is terrifying to me. So, to step back from all of it, GLP-1 as a natural substance, that's so interesting Vanessa, about the 2 minutes, you said 2 minutes is what the normal half-life is compared to seven days.

Vanessa Spina: So short. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: That's concerning that you're-- yeah, 2 minutes versus seven days.

Vanessa Spina: But that's the whole point, like you said, is the people who are taking semaglutide are the people who are not prioritizing protein and that's probably why they're struggling and they're probably not doing resistance training and so they are the most at risk for that muscle loss. And again, if you're like morbidly obese, it's probably worth it and you'll probably be fine because like you said those ratios will even out and a lot of the people in those studies were obese. But if you're taking it and you're taking it as like a vanity drug or something and you are not morbidly obese, that also puts you at a higher risk for losing more lean mass, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I really personally would only take it, I think, if I was obese and if I did not have a fear of constipation and if I was hardcore prioritizing protein and resistance training during that weight loss phase. I just think that's so, so important. So many people are just trying to take it off label, which is legal. Doctors can prescribe it for weight loss, it's just considered off label. It's only approved for-- Vanessa mentioned the different things it's approved for. And even with the weight loss one that's approved, you actually have to technically have another condition, another metabolic issue as well alongside it or cardiovascular issue. But the thing is, a lot of people who are very obese probably have metabolic syndrome, so they probably do have one of the criteria.

Vanessa Spina: One of the weird things about it that I've been hearing lately is that it's popping up in malls. And even there was one person who said that their nail salon or it was either nail salon or hair salon is now offering it. So, I think it's just like people are seeing that it's selling so well. It's so popular that there's probably going to be those kinds of unregulated situations showing up. It's the same thing as maybe like getting Botox, like where you get your nails done or whatever. You definitely would want to see a physician about it or your physician who can track you and make sure that it's something that's potentially safe for you. But the side effects of it are so scary to me. I would not let anyone in my family or friends go on it because the risk of your stomach becoming paralyzed. I mean, I don't have anyone right now in my family who's morbidly obese.

You probably have to weigh the risks if that's like your situation and if you feel like you've tried everything and nothing has worked for you. I just think that there are so many healthy alternative ways of getting a lot of the benefits of appetite suppression, for example, that don't have the risk of these side effects and ultimately are more long term. Like, the results will be more long term. Because my biggest concern is what is going to happen to these people when they stop taking it, if you have to take it for a whole year after just to maintain, what's going to happen when they stop injecting themselves every week or do they have to do it for the rest of their lives?

Melanie Avalon: Well, to that point, kind of like with Candice's question, because it sounds like her dad was doing IF, he was doing well, he got sick, he had to stop IF and he gained weight, so probably stopping the IF is the reason he gained weight, because the IF was working with him to either maintain or lose weight. So, then he goes on semaglutide. It sounds like then he started maintaining his weight. He didn't lose weight, but he wasn't gaining. And so, it sounds like maybe semaglutide was keeping him from gaining weight, and then he stopped the semaglutide goes back on IF and is gaining weight. It could be multifactorial. It could be a long-term effect, like Vanessa was saying earlier and just now. Now he's no longer on this drug and might be having residual side effects that have made it worse than before being on it. And now he's gaining weight even though he's doing IF. So I will say and I agree completely with Vanessa that the lifestyle way is how I would go this and actually so is there a natural compound that increases GLP-1 naturally in your body? Yes.

So, berberine, which I have a berberine by AvalonX and I am obsessed with my berberine. So, it's a plant alkaloid. There're a lot of studies on it for its beneficial effects on blood sugar control, glucose metabolism, its effects on insulin and the mitochondria and even AMPK. And there are quite a few studies showing that it increases GLP-1 in the intestines and has positive effects on glucose metabolism. And that's been theorized that might be one of the ways that it works so well for diabetes and blood sugar control. And then it has a lot of benefits beyond that for blood sugar control but it does directly affect GLP-1. So, what I would suggest, I think is you can take something like berberine. So Berberine is not going to make you lose weight because it's not going to have that effect of semaglutide where you're just not eating and your stomach is paralyzed. But if you want to get these GLP-1 enhancing benefits, you could take something like berberine and then use your dietary approach and lifestyle to address the natural calorie restriction and reduced appetite, like fasting.

So fasting will do that on a high protein diet, a whole foods-based diet, that's what I would do. And that's completely sustainable. And berberine is going to have benefits and it's been used for thousands and thousands of years in traditional Chinese medicine and ayurvedic medicine. So that's what I would personally do. That would be my semaglutide hack. Again, it's not going to wipe out your appetite and make you stop eating but you will get some of that GLP-1 enhancing effect.

Vanessa Spina: I love that. [chuckles] It is awesome. Another one that does it is protein. So, one of the reasons consuming protein is so satiating is when you consume dietary protein, you get GLP-1 secreted from the gut. You get CCK, you get peptide YY and all of these are secreted in the gut, as we talked about and they diminish and suppress appetite and they also decrease ghrelin levels or the gremlin. My friend, Dr. John Lemanski always calls it the gremlin hormone. The ghrelin which is the hunger hormone, you know, just prioritizing protein can also be a semaglutide hack, maybe with some berberine together [chuckles] too, but also intermittent fasting, fasting doing-- I know you eat more of a higher carb diet but there're a lot of benefits to doing restricted carbohydrate. It's one option for people that does really suppress hunger with the ketones. There're just so many ways that you can get the benefits that are very similar to these peptides without having to take on all the risks.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds like we're on the same page.

Vanessa Spina: Love the questions. I'm so glad we got to talk about this, it's so topical right now.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. And if listeners would like to get my berberine, they can go to avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. You can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. Okay. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Make sure to sign up for Tone Protein at [laughs] toneprotein.com as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Which by the time this comes out, will that be?

Vanessa Spina: It should be out, yes. So, if you are signed up at Tone Protein, you will get the launch discount for it. Yeah, it should be out and available by then. So that's toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and a transcript. That is at ifpodcast.com/episode346. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun with you and can't wait to record more next week.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. This was so fun. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Nov 26

Episode 345: Fasted Marathons, Stress Resilience, Finding Happiness, Decluttering, Nesting, Being Overwhelmed By Lifestyle Changes, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #226 - Matthew Lederman

Welcome to Episode 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Choose Your Own Steaks For A Year Plus $20 Off your First Order!

LMNT: The Days Of Rationing Down To Your Last Stick Pack Are Over – Grapefruit Salt Is Here To Stay. For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! Joovvs Biggest Black Friday Sale Is Here With Their Biggest Discounts Ever. Save Up To $1,300 On A New Joovv System Including Their Popular Joovv Solo Which Is Now $250 Off For Limited Time. Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Choose Your Own Steaks For A Year Plus $20 Off your First Order!

LMNT: The Days Of Rationing Down To Your Last Stick Pack Are Over – Grapefruit Salt Is Here To Stay. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

JOOVV: Joovvs Biggest black Friday sale is here with their biggest discounts ever. Save up to $1,300 on a new Joovv system including their popular Joovv Solo which is now $250 off for limited time. Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Feedback: Lauren - Thank you!

Listener Q&A: Annie - How can we live a “normal” life, when we are always inside an expensive bubble full of products and of denials that most take for granted?

I'm Biohacking My Health, the Results Are Incredible

AVALON X SUPPLEMENTS: Get 10% Off avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: I have a huge question for you, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I've asked you this before.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if I have.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Are you still packed or are you still unpacked?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm totally unpacked.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I haven't asked you. Aren't those the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: You're talking about our luggage?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so this is like a thing in my family. I know I've talked about this on the show before, probably with Cynthia or Gin. We had literally, like, an hour-long conversation one dinner, because somebody was like, “Are you still packed?” And then somebody was like, “No, are you still unpacked?” And they were like, mind blown moment. It's like the same thing, but only if you include the word still. If you say, “Are you packed? Are you unpacked?” Those are different. But if you say, “Are you still packed? Are you still unpacked?” It's the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. So, I am officially unpacked.

Melanie Avalon: You're unpacked. So, you are not still unpacked. And you are not still packed.

Vanessa Spina: Right.

Melanie Avalon: This really bothers me. It really bothers. It bothers me that including the word still makes them the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Right. Right, right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's my word moment for the morning. Okay, so your items are not in your suitcase anymore.

Vanessa Spina: They're all washed, folded, put away, and yeah, I need to do it when I get home. It's like if we have a party or something, I can't go to bed until everything is clean. [chuckles] I just don't want to wake up to a mess or a packed suitcase. Just get it done. No matter what it takes, [laughs] you have to stay up late.

Melanie Avalon: I actually love that moment, like when you get back and you're taking all this stuff out and it takes so much longer than I think it will, as does packing.

Vanessa Spina: It takes so long. It really takes a long time because I figured out it's the micro decisions that you have to make. Because I was like, for years I was like, “Why do I hate packing so much?” And I'm like, “It's because I have to make like 1000 micro decisions of what to take.” And every single thing you put in your suitcase is a micro decision that you're making that you may wear that and then everything you're not taking is also like a micro decision. So, it's like you get decision fatigue. It's just more the mental aspect. But I did something amazing [chuckles] that changed my life after we got back from Denver. We got back and I was like, I've been wanting to do this for so long. And I finally did it and it just leveled up my life so much. So, we got back and I was like, Pete, everything we took to Denver is all the stuff that I like and I wear and everything for summer. Because the winter stuff is like away. Everything that I did not pack, that's in my drawers and in my closet is just there. I don't like--

Melanie Avalon: Did you throw it away?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I put it all in a suitcase. Some of it, I try to donate clothes on a regular basis to charitable causes and I love doing that. But I was like, sometimes you're not fully ready to let it go. But I was like, “Okay, so I'm just going to put it all in a suitcase.” And all the stuff that I wasn't quite ready to, I just put it in a suitcase and I cleared out my drawers. So now when I open my drawers, I just have the stuff that I love. Every time I look in the closet, I just have the stuff that I love and that I wear. And so, when we packed for this trip, it was like 100 times easier because I didn't have to make all those micro decisions. I just took everything in my drawer [laughs] and put it in the suitcase and then took everything out and put it back in there. Life changing. I swear, the last three months have been so much easier to just get dressed and do things because I'm not wading through the drawers, through all the other stuff to find what I want. When I open the drawer, it's just what I want. It's just like mind blowing. But it was amazing and I want to do it again for winter stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, this is crazy. I have a follow-up question and I have a very similar system I've implemented. Question, so this suitcase now that's full of these clothes that you don't wear, are you going to take that suitcase to goodwill or do you have goodwill?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, we basically give it to our church here that helps mostly migrants and victims of sex trafficking. So, it's great because it's like all women's clothes. And what I do is I know the stuff that I want to get rid of right away. But sometimes you're not ready to let go of something because it has, like, sentimental value. If you had it for a long time or you're just like, I might wear this sometimes. So that's the stuff that I put in the suitcase. And then if I don't think about it or use it, like, usually six months or a year later, I open it up again, and then I look through if there's a couple of things that I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, I haven't seen this in so long. I can't wait to wear it.” I'll wear it again. But mostly everything is like, no, it's in there for a reason. I purchased it and I kept it in my closet or my drawers out of guilt because I spent money on it.

So, I felt like I had to keep it. But I don't actually wear it. I don't want to wear it. It's been in the suitcase for a year, so now it's ready to go to the final stage, which is donation. So, I think it just helps with that stuff that you're just not fully ready to let go of. But I'm ruthless. Usually when it comes to clothes, I'm like, I haven't worn that in six months to a year. It's gone. I know that's not as easy for everyone. Like, Pete is with clothes he has a really hard time getting rid of stuff, so I kind of have to do it sometimes for him. But I find that that intermediate step can help if you're struggling to just let go of things, especially if they have some kind of emotional value or something.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. We have such a similar system. So, one I have contemplated doing the thing you mentioned where you get back and you had packed the stuff you really loved, but I can't do that. I'm not at that point. So, kudos to you. I do something very similar, which is, I have a big black trash bag. Actually, I have a hamper. Oh, I use a hamper. Okay, so I have a hamper in my closet and it's the throwaway hamper. And then I have a trash bag in it and I try to every day-- Did I tell you this? Do my throw something away mantra.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's a great way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I say in my head, “Throw something away every day. Throw something away every day.” And then I walk around the apartment, and I try to take one piece of clothing and put it into the bag, and I try to actually just throw something else away into the trash, something from the apartment, unless it's donatable. And then I wait until that fills up that hamper, and then I take the bag to goodwill, and I do the same thing you did, where it's like, if I haven't thought about. If I think about it and I try to find it, I can go dig through and find it, but I haven't done that yet. And then also something you can tell yourself is like, “Okay, let's say that there's one outfit that you regret throwing away. It's so worth it to regret that one outfit and throw away all that other stuff.” It's just worth it because it feels so good. Like you said to, “Ooh, it feels nice.”

Vanessa Spina: I think I've had one moment where I was like, “Oh, I missed that thing that I donated or got rid of,” but it's like one out of so many other things. Like you said, “It's just not worth it.” And it feels amazing to declutter. I try to be as minimalist as possible. It's getting more challenging [chuckles] as we expand our family, but I still try to be as minimalist as possible. And it is such a game changing thing, like, for your mental performance, for your productivity, and just for how good it feels. I think one of the reasons we feel so good when we're at a hotel is because you have such few things. Like, you just have the essentials and it feels so good. And as women, we in particular can't relax unless our space is organized and clean, or else everything talks to us. Like, the pillow talks to us, the blanket, the throws. like, straighten me, pick me up. Everything talks to us. [laughs] So when you're in an empty room or a really minimalist or clean organized room, you can just fully focus and nothing talks to you and all the noise is gone I find.

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. I was reading a study about that, actually, because I've noticed that if I get really stressed or overwhelmed with work, I will have to like-- everything has to be organized all of a sudden. And it's not because I'm procrastinating. It's because I literally, all of a sudden, cannot handle things not being straightened up. And there's some, wait, is that nesting as well also? I feel like they gave some bird mother term to it, which the other day, Vanessa texted me. She was like, “I have to come back and nest.” And I was like, “What is that?” [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Because there was a little nest emoji with, like, three blue eggs, like the Robin eggs.

Melanie Avalon: I’ve never seen that emoji before. [laughs] It's got, like, the little blue egg in it.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Yeah. I was like, the holidays, our baby moon has been incredible, beautiful, like, everything I wanted. But I'm feeling restless, like, I need to go home and nest, and that is basically, like, I need to get our space ready.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I think that is maybe the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It happens usually in the, like, specially, in the third trimester, which I'm now in, where you're like a bird, like, mama bird fluttering its wings around. You're just like, “I need to make this place clean.” Suddenly, everything has to be clean, organized, and you have to get everything ready. Like, the nursery, everything becomes priority number one. It was actually taking away from my enjoyment being away, because I was like, “I need to be home and fixing stuff.” And I was talking to Pete about it because I need to nest. He was like, “Okay, [laughs] I'm really enjoying being here, but I need to be home now.” So, our biological instincts are really powerful and amazing, but, yeah, that's the nesting.

Melanie Avalon: Is it, like an ongoing thing, the nesting experience? Like, are you nesting for a month until the baby comes?

Vanessa Spina: It's pretty much going to be from now until baby comes. And it's been interesting having other girlfriends go through it too and being pregnant at the same time as other friends, because we'll be going for a walk and getting coffee and talking, and they're like, “My apartment is so dirty. [laughs] I need to clean everything.” And it's just like this primal urge that everything needs to be clean. Like you find yourself, I was cleaning when you open the freezer and on the freezer door, there's like, this plastic whatever, and then there's, like, these folds. I was cleaning inside the folds because [laughs] I was like, “They're not clean enough.” It's another level of clean freaking or whatever.

Melanie Avalon: I do think they use the word nest in that study. I read about when you're stressed and you have to clean--

Vanessa Spina: Like a stressed bird. Just like, I need to make my nest. Yeah. That's so funny. I love that you read a study on it.

Melanie Avalon: I did. I was also reading, I think, yesterday about cowbirds. Are you familiar with these?

Vanessa Spina: No.

Melanie Avalon: Apparently. Where was I reading this? I think it was actually talking something about narcissism. Apparently, these birds, they know that other birds assume that the eggs in their nest are their own, so they lay their eggs in other birds’ nests. They, like, outsource that [laughs] because they're like, they’ll deal. [laughs] They'll assume. I do think it was, like, something about narcissism and we literally-- Oh, yeah. I think it was in Peter Attia? Was it in Peter Attia’s book? I don't know. I'm all over the place. It was something about how we're so consumed and we can only see our own perspective of the world. And cowbirds know this. I don't know if they actually think about this when they're laying the eggs, but yeah.

Vanessa Spina: That's really funny. So, they outsource it that the other bird will raise it because it's so preoccupied with itself that it doesn't realize it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So much we can learn from the animal kingdom.

Vanessa Spina: That's fascinating. That's really fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: I know. One last little thing. Okay, so you've been, like, crazily cleaning for hours. Do you know what I've been doing for hours?

Vanessa Spina: What?

Melanie Avalon: This will be way-- by the time this comes out, this will be way in the past, but the Taylor Swift Eras movie is coming out.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I can't wait too.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you're seeing it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean when I can, I'd love to. Yeah. I didn't go to the concert, so for me, it's going to be like.

Melanie Avalon: Is it going to come out in Prague?

Vanessa Spina: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Wait, is it going to theaters first? I just assumed it was going to be on Netflix.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. No, no, no, this is a theater experience.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I'll have to go to that.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure it'll come out here like every movie comes out here, just like it does in North America.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it comes out this weekend.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I got to find out when it's coming out.

Melanie Avalon: So, I counted up how many hours I've spent. I think I've spent 10 hours talking about things that you think, like, the unpacking will not take that long. I was like, “Oh, it will not take that long to individually glue sequins to my Taylor Swift bodysuit, incorrect assumption.” I have spent about 10 hours gluing sequins to my outfit while listening to audiobooks prepping the show. It's epic, my costume.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I can't wait to see a picture.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to dress up. I'm going to be T Swift in the flesh. So, yes. I love projects like crafting. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: It's therapeutic.

Vanessa Spina: I love Michaels. I wish that's the one thing actually they don't have here. Makes me sad.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man or Hobby Lobby.

Vanessa Spina: They don't have it here? No. I used to go there a lot. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Although I went to Michaels, and I was like, “I need sequins.” And he was like, “What are sequins?” And I was like, “Am I at Hobby Lobby? Where am I?”

Vanessa Spina: Pretty sure they have, like, an aisle of sequins.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I had to go rogue and find them myself. I wish you were here. We could go together.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that would be amazing. That would seriously be amazing. I'm trying to figure out a Halloween costume, because we have a Halloween party coming up, and I have not thought about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: Could be Taylor Swift.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] I think I need to find something coordinated for Luca and maybe something that's good for pregnancy. You know fun like--

Melanie Avalon: What if you're, like, Humpty Dumpty?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I was saying pumpkin. A pumpkin is, like, the cutest baby costume ever. I was like, I think Lucas a little bit too big now, so maybe he could be a two-two. You know, he really likes Thomas, Thomas the Tank Engine and all that. Like, maybe he could be a Thomas. But, yeah, I'm thinking I got to find something that unifies-- a unifying theme and I don't have time for that right now. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You can outsource that to me. I'll think about it for you and then I'll report back.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I think I was telling you we wanted to do last year like Prince Charming.

Melanie Avalon: What if you do Alice in Wonderland?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: There're so many characters in that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. You know, it's so much easier for that kind of stuff in North America because you can just go to any costume store, and they'll have a family set or, like, a Target or something. But here it's more like Amazon. So, yeah, maybe this weekend I'll spend some time on it [laughs] if my nesting gives me a break from everything else.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe you could do something with the nesting. Maybe you could be a bird.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe you could all be birds. Different, different birds.

Vanessa Spina: He would love that. Oh, my gosh. He loves birds.

Melanie Avalon: You could be a flamingo, like, all pink.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I need to find something funny that has a big belly.

Melanie Avalon: A hummingbird. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait what's a real-- A peacock, a peacock.

Vanessa Spina: I love how excited you are.

Melanie Avalon: Then you could do, like, rainbow. Oh, wait, but they're male so.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, Pete would have to be peacock. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Pete can be the peacock. You could be the flamingo. Luca can be a penguin.

Vanessa Spina: We'll workshop it.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. To start things off, this is actually some feedback I got on Instagram. So, I asked her if I could include it because I thought it was just such a lovely little story. So, this was from Lauren. She messaged me and she said that she did her first half fasted marathon. She said, “Just wanted to say thank you for all the education because it gave me the confidence to trust my intuition and go for it. I used to have a terrible relationship with food and hate my body. Now I have a great relationship with food and love what it can do. I'm so happy with a sub two time. It was really interesting feeling my body switch into ketosis around Mile Nine as so many other runners started to flag. Fasting is such a superpower. We need everyone to know.” Then she put the little emoji with the heart eyes and she said, “You are a legend” with a little smiley face, XOX.

So, thank you so much for reporting back. Lauren. First of all, I'm thrilled that you have had that mindset shift surrounding your relationship with food. And it's really exciting because you know, I'm not a marathon runner. I really like hearing from listeners who are implementing fasting with athletic endeavors like that and how it goes and it's so cool about. that really must feel like a superpower to switch into ketosis when people are starting to hit the wall. Any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I'm always telling people that if you're doing, usually long-distance running, that is the perfect exercise for being fat fueled because it is 60% to 70% of your VO2 max. You can just be fueled from fat. And I have so many athletes who are out there just killing it, reporting back to me that they're doing keto and people just don't believe them and they're setting new records. They're using it as such a competitive edge and people call it bonking when you hit the wall and it's because you run out of glycogen. But if you're running off of fat, then you're never going to hit that wall. It's just the perfect exercise for that, as long as you stay well hydrated using electrolytes like LMNT or something, because you definitely want to maintain your hydration and all that.

But yeah, that's so cool that you actually felt your body switching into ketosis and other people were starting to flag. It happened to me once with Pete and my father-in-law, we were on this crazy hike that he said was only going to be an hour or two and it was like four hours and it was in Utah and it was so hot. No one else was around because were like insane to be doing this. And at the end they started slowing down. But I had LMNT with me and I just ate protein when we had our snack and I had LMNT and I was like busting it out of there. I was like, [chuckles] I couldn't even see them anymore. I was going so fast and they both were like just dying in the heat. And my father-in-law still talks about that hike. He's like, “I don't understand what was going on, but you were gone, you were like turbo mode and were about to pass out.” [laughs] So, yeah, it's being fat fueled. It's amazing. It is a superpower.

Melanie Avalon: It is a superpower. And that sounds so miserable. Oh, my goodness. Which actually is going to relate to my answer for the next question. Have you done a marathon or a half marathon?

Vanessa Spina: It's not my thing. No.

Melanie Avalon: Not my thing either.

Vanessa Spina: I'm like, “I'll cheer you on and everything from the sidelines.”

Melanie Avalon: I won't even cheer you on. [laughs] Does that require sitting outside [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Standing for a long time? Yeah. I have a really good friend whose husband does them a lot. So, I'm like, “Go, Cody, you're killing it.” But I just have no interest at all, at all, negative interest. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'll throw the like welcome, the celebration party.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Nice.

Melanie Avalon: Indoors at the end.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's just not appealing for me, but I know it is appealing to lots of people.

Melanie Avalon: And like I said, it relates to my answer for the next question, which I'll let you read it, but I'll set it up so that the context is I had asked for questions in the Facebook group IF Biohackers for Terry Wahls. Dr. Terry Wahls, who I interviewed this past week, actually, I think, or the week before. She is so great. I love her. She's just so inspiring, because you've interviewed her, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So inspiring.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So definitely listeners check that out. I think it's-- yeah, it should have already aired by now. She almost started crying on the show. It was very, very touching when she was telling her story. So, yes, we talked all about her studies on diet, including fasting for multiple sclerosis specifically, but it applies to autoimmune conditions as well. So, this question we did not get to and I thought it was a good question for our show, actually. So, would you like to read it?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. So, Annie from Facebook asks, “How can we live a “normal life” when we are always inside an expensive bubble full of products and denials that most take for granted? Don't eat this or that. Not that water. Oh, wait. Yes, that water, but not too much. No Wi-Fi, no gluten, no fortified anything? No, no, no and take tons of supplements and expensive. Doctors and treatments yet we are expected to live a stress-free life this way. So, we just accept and try. But does anybody really get better and happy in this bubble?”

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I loved this question also, I just want to say, Vanessa, I like how you read question.

Vanessa Spina: Aw. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because you read that with character. I felt like Annie was here with us. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's awesome. I try add some dramatic flair.

Melanie Avalon: It was good. I liked it. I feel like it's your theater background coming out.

Vanessa Spina: I know. I feel like, I'm auditioning or something--

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: We are like reading sides here constantly. [laughter ]It's interesting because it's, like, the blend because you don't want to go full out character mode you know but you tend-- [laughter] I literally think about this when I'm reading questions. I'm like, “You got to be objective and narrator, but also have some character. You've nailed it.” You've got the talent.

Vanessa Spina: Did I get the part? [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: You got the part. [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Can't wait to tell my mom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so good. Okay. I can't, I'm going to start crying again from laughing. Thank you for the question, Annie. I have so many thoughts about this. I know this is something I know I've experienced this. I know so many people experience this. And Annie was talking about it in relation to autoimmune conditions, but it's also something I just feel a lot of people in the health sphere, people on diets, even people doing fasting, like, people who are making choices about what they like, she said, about what they do or don't eat, supplements, foods, doctors, treatments, a lot of people are constantly making these decisions for their life and it can feel restrictive. And then, in addition, some people come from a baseline of feeling great without doing or feeling okay at least without doing this, and then they do this and they just feel better, whereas some people feel really awful if they don't do these things. And then doing this helps them feel better.

So, there're layers of, I think, a feeling of necessity surrounding it. I'll start with what she said at the end, which is, “But does anybody really get better and happy in this bubble?" So, I would encourage you, Annie, to think about what you mean by happiness. First of all, what you mean by happiness and where that happiness comes from and what that means. Because if happiness, this is all just my thoughts, my esoteric thoughts, but to me happiness is a transitory temporal state of feelings that can come and go and that's okay. And if that's the end goal, if happiness is the end goal, you're probably not going to find it, because it's not something-- it really, really does matter on how you define it though. It's a lot of semantics, actually yesterday I interviewed the creators of the Forks Over Knives series, like documentary, and then all the books that go with it, they have a new book called Wellness to Wonderful, which is really good. It's about a full lifestyle approach to health and wellness. We actually talked about this because their barometer is, is life wonderful? And we talked about the difference between wonderful versus happiness and how feeling like your life is wonderful and you are content and satisfied is different than like a transitory state of happiness.

First of all, I contemplate what you mean by happy and where is that found and how it relates to what we were talking about a second ago with Vanessa, is stress and happiness and suffering and pain, and what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy is so relative. So, like, racing literally sounds like the most awful experience to me. Like, you could not pay me. And like I said, even just being outside watching people race is not pleasant to me. Some people love it. They love it. What that says to me or something like traffic. There are some people, like my mom, she cannot stand traffic. Like when we are in traffic, she just is so upset. Whereas when I'm in traffic, I'm like, “Oh, this is great. I can listen to more podcasts.” I really don't mind it. I think it's like a fun time. So, I think the point of that is that literally, any situation that you're in, somebody could enjoy it and somebody could not. So, any experience you're in is relative. You decide how it affects you on a deeper emotional level, and it's completely okay to have. And we talked about this yesterday in the interview, which I'll put a link to in the show notes. I think the show notes for it are going to be melanieavalon.com/wellnesstowonderful probably.

So, we talked about how even feelings, we'll say, like, negative feelings and positive feelings, but really, they're just pleasant and unpleasant. Like, there's no good or bad or right or wrong. They just are. Or it's like one of my favorite authors or I actually really recommend reading Amy Johnson's book Just a thought. It's so cute. It's like this really small little book. It's super short. It has an endorsement from me in it, which is very exciting, right alongside, like, Deepak Chopra. But in that book, she talks about the weather and how there's the sky and how you are the sky and the weather is your experiences and what you're going through. And the weather can be so many different things and it can be crazy and it can be, “bad, like a thunderstorm or it can be a clear sky, but either way, there's actually a clear sky behind that.” Like, you don't change. So, defining yourself and your happiness by your experiences is not sustainable for lifetime satisfaction. And I know that's a lot of words. So, it's like, “How do you do this?” I mean that’s were like, I find so much value in seeing a therapist every week, reading books about this. A lot of people benefit from meditation, prayer.

So, I would try to have a sort of mindset shift surrounding all of that. And then as far as the actual things you're doing, like feeling like you have to-- like Vanessa was so eloquently reading with a slight inflection of character, you know, don't drink this water, drink a little bit of this water, except maybe not, like all of that stuff. Remember that, that is your choice, I think having agency in your own life is one of the most empowering things ever. I'm all about-- And I'm not saying that she's doing this, but I think we live in an epidemic of victimhood today where we think we're a victim of everything, of our own circumstances, of the world, when really, it's really empowering to have agency. So, all these choices that you're making, if you can reframe them as they are, I mean, presumably that's why you're making them. Hopefully, you are making the choices that help make you feel better and that is your choice.

And you actually don't have to do any of them. I think that's freeing to know, like, you are the person in control here. You're choosing-- you don't have to do anything. You are choosing to do things because they make you feel better. And even for me, because if you look at the way I eat and the things I do, it looks really restrictive. I am so happy doing it. It makes me so happy to use that word, which has problematic semantics surrounding it. But I feel really good in the dietary choices that I make because I have found the foods that I love. I think that's important. Making sure that within this paradigm of these gluten, not gluten foods you can and can't eat, finding the foods that you really do love, I think that's really important because you can definitely do that. There are delicious foods and your tastebuds will change. So, I think paying attention to that, defining a diet that you do love and telling yourself that you have agency, making those decisions and that it's okay to not feel okay. Like, that's okay.

And it's also okay if you do want to have a day where you're just like, want to lament. And I mean, I don't want to say like a pity party, but that's okay too, if you want to have those moments as well have those moments. But hopefully the ongoing theme can be one of agency and empowerment. And for the question of, does anybody ever really get better? Again, I think it's a matter of what do we mean by better? Because everybody's always on a spectrum of health. So, you can monitor that with how you’re reacting to things and your health markers and all of that. But that's always going to be the spectrum. So, I wouldn't even make that the end goal. I would really work on the mental and the emotional wellness behind it. That was very long. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I have so many thoughts on this. [chuckles] The first one, I mean, just as a blanket overview is like, if doing this stuff doesn't make you happy and doesn't lower your stress, makes you more stressed, then I think that's a big indicator. Whereas you and I, I talk to you most days, like every day, you're always happy. I feel like I'm always happy too because it does make us happy. It's not like you're happy one day and another day you're like, really--you're always happy when I talk to you. I feel like I am too. This lifestyle that we've chosen and following the science and biohacking and everything, for me it has tremendously improved my overall state. And it's given me access to be able to work on the other stuff, the other deeper stuff, like doing the deeper work. One of my favorite quotes is, I don't know if I'm going to say it properly, but it's sort of like, “If you do the hard stuff, then life gets really easy whereas if you take the easy way out, then life is always hard.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's a good one.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] It's one of my favorites and I live by it because sometimes the stuff that we do, just like you said in your question, Annie, sometimes the stuff that we, does feel hard. But at the end of the day, if it does make life easier for you, then I think it's worth it. Whereas taking the easy way out sometimes feels easy in the moment, but not doing the hard work it can lead to making life harder. And it applies to so many different aspects of life, whether it's like health or business or work or relationships. It applies to everything. So sometimes I find you have to work and put that work in and then life gets really easy and really amazing. One example I could say is learning all of this stuff, doing all of this stuff has made me go from being obsessed and addicted to food and feeling really unempowered and unhappy and trapped in my body to feeling effortlessly lean. I don't have to think about, really food much at all anymore. I just eat to live. And I enjoy my meals when I eat them. But I have all this energy freed up now to go and live all my dreams and take that energy to feeling good, being in a good state, and then being able to work on the other stuff. Like you brought up about that analogy of the sky. You know, one of my favorite, favorite authors, aside from Deepak. I love him, Deepak Chopra-

Melanie Avalon: Who? I don't know his name.

Vanessa Spina: -he's amazing, is Michael Singer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, we talked about-- I forgot, we both-- We love this book. Yes.

Vanessa Spina: Oh. The Untethered Soul, I feel like it was a culmination of every book I've read on meditation and mindset and work and everything. And I just listened to his new podcast while we’re in Greece and it was just so amazing. One of the things he talked about is how a lot of us are just stuck in this worry stack where it's like a stack of books and you're just worried about, say, the top item on your list. And then once you figure that out, then you just go to the next one on your worry stack and you worry about that. And it's just like no matter what you do, whenever you solve whatever problem, you're just going from one worry to another. Whereas if you just let go of all of that, and he gave this analogy of, like, a kid who knows that he's got a shot coming up, that he has to have a school mandatory vaccine or something. And he spends two weeks dreading the shot and worrying about it. Whereas the actual shot is like 2 seconds. I had one yesterday, [chuckles] intramuscular injection for pregnancy. The actual shot was like not even 5 seconds, like when the needle goes in everything.

But why spend all of that time worrying and anticipating the things that could go wrong in life when you could just let go of all of that and just fully experience life? And you're going to have fear in your heart. You're going to face your own heart and the fears that you have in it and everything. [chuckles] I know I'm growing really deep here, but that's all that self-work that is about mindset. And it comes through doing meditation, reading books about that inner monologue and the inner voice and the inner narrative, how you talk to yourself and what you're focusing on. Like, what state are you in right now? Are you concerned right now? Are you worrying right now? Or are you taking a moment to be mindful and set a positive intention for the day? Spend some time focusing on gratitude, shifting out of a fearful or worried state, stress state. Stress is just another word for fear. So, a lot of us are in a fearful state a lot of the time and there are things that we can do to feel good. So, it really comes down to, “Does this stuff make you feel happier?”

Like you have to do a self-assessment, like you said, Melanie, and be like, “Does this stuff make me feel better or does it just stress me out?” And if it just stresses you out, then it's not worth it. It's not worth doing. If, on the other hand, it does make you feel empowered and it is giving you tangible results, you're seeing benefits in your health and your physique and your energy levels, if you are feeling and seeing those benefits, then it's worth it for you. But you really have to take that assessment and see if this stuff is helping you. And I'm going to say, from your question, sounds like it's not making you very happy to do this stuff. Maybe you're just having a bad day. Maybe you're just feeling overwhelmed, because I know it can be overwhelming. Every day it seems like there's a new thing, there's a new supplement or there's deuterium depleted water, and there's all this stuff. And you have to kind of say, like, “I can't do all of this stuff, but I can do one thing and I can focus on one thing.” And that's a really important concept, I think, when it comes to all of this and biohacking is, you really want to do one thing at a time and really integrate that thing.

Like, if you want to get into cold exposure, focus on cold exposure and just adding in that one thing. But if you try to add in cold exposure, red light therapy and AI Bike and this new kind of fasting and blue light blocking glasses and you're adding in everything at the same time and trying to drink the deuterium depleted water, it's going to feel overwhelming. So, I really suggest just slow things down. You don't have to do everything. You can just do one thing at a time, focus on that thing, and that's how you're going to be able to assess each thing that you try. Like, does this one hack actually improve my life? Whereas if you're doing all of them at once, it's going to be hard to assess individually each thing. So, I think that's what I would say.

Melanie Avalon: I loved that so much. I love talking about this with you. Follow up thoughts. One, I forgot that we both loved Michael Singer so much. I think we talked about that like a while ago.

Vanessa Spina: A long time ago. Yeah. He's just so, so incredible. And he just released the new season of his podcast, which is like every episode is 45 minutes to an hour and it's just the best thing ever, I think. It's called The Untethered Soul, Michael Singer Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the podcast is called that?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Each season is only like four or five episodes, but it's incredible. You want to listen to each one over and over again. But the book, yeah, The Untethered Soul, itself is incredible. And then the second book, also amazing. \

Melanie Avalon: When did he release that podcast you said?

Vanessa Spina: So this one just came out a few weeks ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like brand new. He didn't have a prior season.

Vanessa Spina: And then there was a season 1, which I think came out like a year or two ago. And then he also has this course, which is like The Untethered Soul, which I did and Pete did a little bit with me. And it's a video course, but it's very similar to the podcast episodes, except it also has the video component to it. But the podcast this season is just mind blowing. It's amazing. So, I guess it's kind of like you want to be dedicating some percentage of your time or life to spending it on the mindset and mindfulness, consciousness, meditation, all of that really helps. I think it's something that you don't just do it once. It's something that you have to actively maintain.

You have to be reading books on a regular basis about it, doing meditation on a regular basis, putting in that work that makes life easy. You have to put in the time to do it. But I do find that the stuff that we do on the health and nutrition side, it helps to provide clarity, because for me, with food and everything, it generated so much noise in my life, and especially fixating on my physique and just food in general and being obsessed with food, once I figured out some of these concepts that we talk about a lot, like protein makes you really satisfied, so you don't have to think about food anymore. The noise just fell away. And then I was able to focus more on these other things, these other aspects as well. So, they kind of go hand in hand, I think.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, to that point. So, two thoughts. One, I really like what you said about evaluating what is and isn't working, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But in the Newsweek piece that I got to write, which was about my personal diet history and a little bit of my biohacking journey, the way I ended that, which is what I feel very strongly about, is that one of the most freeing things in my personal, “biohacking journey” was when I did have the realization that I don't have to do all these things. I was in this world where I was like, “I have to do all of this stuff.” I was like, the picture I can see in my head is me religiously clinging to these diet tips and techniques and biohacking things because I thought they were saving me. And that was really stressful honestly. And when I had the epiphany that, “Oh, I actually don't have to do any of this, and I can just do what makes me feel better and it can be additive, that was really freeing.” So, I think getting out of this overwhelming mindset of having to do all the things, you can still do all the things, but just that mindset of having to do them and feeling trapped by them is so different than choosing to do them. So, I like what Vanessa was saying about kind of taking stock of what you are doing and what is benefiting you and what's not and letting go of what is not benefiting you.

The second thing I was going to say was, no I forgot. I will say though, for her part about how can we live a normal life? So that's another thing where it's semantics, like, “What is normal?” Oh, I remembered, first of all, you get to decide what is normal and what you want your life to be. I don't see any reason to have to adapt to what society calls normal. The mosaic of all the people in the world is what makes society so interesting in my opinion. And then last comment. So, Vanessa was commenting on how she and I are often very happy, which is very true. I just want to clarify that I still have. Okay, well, first of all, when I was reading that Michael Singer book for the first time, The Untethered Soul, that was in my, like, what I call my dark time, I probably still seemed happy to other people. But even during that-- that's when I was really having a lot of health struggles and challenges. I still saw it as separate from who I was.

So, it never really colored my thoughts about the world and myself and my happiness. And even today, I'm so grateful and I really enjoy life, and I really do feel happy the majority of the time. And I can still feel incandescently happy while having very stressful things happening that I'm not enjoying, that are not fun. And those can exist simultaneously pretty easily for me. Like, even when really bad things happen, either in relationships or with business or work or stress, it's all separate to me. It's just what I'm experiencing at that moment. So, I'm still happy.

Vanessa Spina: I love everything that you said there. I have to say on the first point, I'm so glad that you said that, because I think a lot of people looking at you or being fans of you from listening to the show for a long time, would just assume that you are doing all the biohacks, that you have all the biohacking devices and you do all the biohacks. So, I think if there's anyone listening to the show who's been inspired by you over the years, it's probably really great for them to hear you say that you don't feel, like, the pressure to do all of them because you are known as, like, top six biohacker in the world. It's great that you don't feel some kind of pressure to do all the things and that you give yourself the grace and the time to just do what feels approachable and accessible and whatever in the time, you don't overwhelm yourself with stuff. So, I love that you said that. And then I also love that you mentioned that you're not necessarily happy all the time. I don't want to project a fake reality either, of course, life is still hard. [laughs]

There're still difficult moments. I sort of was referring to in general, your disposition, and I feel similar, like an overall state or disposition, whereas we both interact with a lot of people. And I always know, like, you're in a high vibe. I feel like I'm often in a high vibe, but we get there intentionally. I every day, set my intentions. I put myself in a state of thankfulness. It doesn't mean that I don't encounter hard or challenging things. I typically like to frame them as challenging because challenges bring out the best in you, but it's more of a disposition, and I feel like we both work at that. And I think, like I was saying it goes hand in hand with the fact that all the stuff that we do on the health and lifestyle also supports that. But the things that you and I find joy in and that support our health and happy mindset or happy disposition may not generate that for other people. It may generate more stress or a feeling that you're not keeping up with everyone else or you're not doing as well. It could generate all kinds of other feelings that I can't speak to. So, it's all about assessing yourself with anything that you do in life, with any job or any activity or anything that you pursue. Does this actually make my life happier? And if it doesn't, then you have to reevaluate.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because with the biohacks, I really came to a similar place. Like, I still do most of the things. My mindset is just completely different surrounding them. And then yeah, commenting just quickly on the perpetual happiness or high vibe thing. Something else from Amy Johnson's book that I really like. She points out that unpleasant experiences that may happen that you don't want to be in, that are happening. Like, when those happen, we think it's all consuming and it's the way it's going to be. And that's all we see when really it literally is going to pass. You don't even have to do anything, and it'll pass. And what I mean by that is bad things can happen, and we think that we have to fix it. It will pass. And the fact that you don't have to even do anything is kind of mind blowing. When things happen to me that I don't like being in that experience of, I literally see myself in it, and I see it as this is like a temporary, transitory thing that I am not enjoying. I'm very open about that. You can accept that I am not enjoying this happening right now, but it's not me. I'm still happy. I'm still great behind it and it'll pass.

Like, the thing that happened two nights ago was when I was working on my Taylor Swift sequin bodysuit and I was trying to get, like, glitter acrylic sparkle stuff to spray on it. So, I bought, like, three different ones. That stuff is so toxic smelling. And one of them, I didn't realize it, but it was broken, so it leaked, and it was everywhere in my apartment. So, my entire apartment was like fumes. I do not do well with fumes. When I was experiencing that, I was like, this is not fun. I am not enjoying this. This is not, um-mm, but I saw it as just something happening to me that would pass. Like, it's not me because I'm good behind it all. So, I hope that helps, Annie. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for your question, Annie. And I hope that this gave you something to think about.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes, let us know. And also, because I'm assuming she has an autoimmune condition, so sending love with all of that, I was thinking we could answer because it relates Laura's question, hers was, “If we had a limited budget, what supplements would you prioritize?” kind of ties in. And then she says, “What makes you happy and grateful.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. Why don't you go first?

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, Laura, she's asking, “If we had a limited budget, what supplements would you prioritize?” And this kind of relates to what we’re both saying before. I definitely had a great epiphany relief moment when I realized I didn't have to be taking all the supplements all the time. That was definitely a potential point of stress for me. And realizing that I'm taking these to help me. If I don't take them, that's okay. And also, yes, like Laura's asking, evaluate what would you prioritize? So, I think, as a baseline, making sure you're getting all of your nutrition is really important. So, looking at your diet, what are you getting all your nutrition and trying to get that from diet, especially, like, limited budget, you can get a lot of nutrition in whole foods and meat and egg yolks. There's a lot of really affordable ways to get nutrition from food. I think it can be hard, even with food, to get enough magnesium from your food. So, I would prioritize a magnesium supplement. It can be hard to get enough vitamin D depending on how much you're outside. So, I would prioritize a vitamin D supplement.

And then again, I think on the supplemental nutrition side of things, those are ones that most people are probably deficient in, and then beyond that, from there, seeing where else you might be deficient. And then beyond that, it’s for me personally, I benefit so much from digestive enzymes and HCL. So that's something for me. So, if you struggle with digestion and those really help, that might be something to prioritize, but that would be a case-by-case basis. When I just step back and think about what I want to say, like fun supplements, like supplement that's not dire because it's not nutrition related or digestion related. There is a reason I made serrapeptase as my first supplement for AvalonX. And it's just because it has such a profound effect on me, on my inflammation, on my sinuses, on so many things. So, I would personally prioritize my serrapeptase. I'll put a link avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide. MD Logic did recently release a vitamin D supplement. It's a capsule supplement. I take a liquid form, but they released a capsule for people who like that, so that's a good option. And then I have a magnesium as well. I have two magnesiums on avalonx.us, digestive supplements I do want to make a line in the future. Right now, I take Pure Encapsulations brand. Yeah. What are your thoughts on supplements, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: So I really don't take that many to begin with. So, I feel like I really prioritize because I find that if you take too many, it gets overwhelming and then you just stop taking them. Like, I've been there so many times. I take magnesium. It's the number one supplement that I travel with. I don't leave home without it. I now take Magnesium 8 by AvalonX every single day. I take it every single night, I give it to friends, I had it with me when we were in Greece. I've been wanting to share this with you, actually, for a while, but being pregnant, you have to be even more careful about the supplements that you take. And I trust your magnesium more than any other out there. So, thank you for making such an incredible supplement. But if I had to choose one, it would be that, honestly. And then magnesium citrate I always take with me when I'm traveling as well, because I feel like sometimes it complements it just to have the extra, but also sometimes when I'm traveling and I'm eating different things, if I don't feel like I'm as regular as I am when I'm at home, it really--

Melanie Avalon: Natural CALM.

Vanessa Spina: --yeah, it's the best. What's it called? Natural Vitality CALM.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And they have a smaller version of it, which is usually I have the big ones at home, but they have the smaller one that's great for travel. I always take with me because it's same with Pete. If he has any issues, just he's like, “Do you have the magnesium citrate?” I'm like, “Yep.” So, it's super helpful. That's, like, my number one. Right now, I'm taking a prenatal and I take prenatal or a multivitamin by Thorne. It's probably the other brand that I trust as much as AvalonX. And I mostly take it because of vitamin C, because I eat so, like, keto carnivore and carnivore-ish. Vitamin C, I think, is something that I would take on its own, but because I'm also pregnant, I just take a prenatal, and it's got everything. But on the days that I eat liver, as you were mentioning, trying to get the nutrients from your diet, then I don't take it because I don't need the folate. It's in the liver.

The other supplement that I love is L-carnitine. I'm fascinated by it. You actually do mostly get it from meat, which is where the word carne comes from. But I found some really interesting research on how it also, it's one of the transporters that helps you be fat fueled. So, it helps shuttle fatty acids into your tissues to be oxidized for fuel into your mitochondria. And so, I always take L-carnitine. For vitamin D I actually take cod liver. Like, I have cod liver in cans. And whenever I make, like, tuna salad for myself or Luca or Pete, I just put some cod livers in there, and it makes it taste extra good, extra rich because it's so fatty. But the cans I get come with cod liver oil. So, I take the oil out and I put that into a jar and I keep that and just use a dropper and put droplets on that. It's basically very similar to what you get with vitamin D drops, but it's actually the pure form. So that's kind of like a hybrid getting it from your food versus supplement. But if I don't have cod liver, then I will take a vitamin D supplement and I try to get in the sun as much as possible.

And my other one, last one is red light, because I really do consider light to be a nutrient. And so many of us are deficient in especially red light. And our mitochondria actually need red light to activate the chromophores or cytochrome c oxidase on the electron transport chain. So, I think that because of our modern lifestyles, we are actually deficient in this nutrient. So, I use red light every day so. I know you do too, although, I just thought it would be fun to include it in there.

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick, one, do you have my NightCap?

Vanessa Spina: I think so, yes, I do. But I've been meaning to ask you about it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, to ask what it does?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I knew the Magnesium 8 would be fine for pregnancy, but I haven't taken the Serrapeptase yet or the NightCap one because I hadn't asked you about those yet. For some reason, the Serrapeptase scares me to take while pregnant. I'll probably wait until after. I'm sure it's safe, but I'll probably wait until after. But, yeah, tell me about the NightCap.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I totally understand the pregnancy concerns. So, the NightCap, it's magnesium threonate, which is a special type of magnesium that crosses the blood brain barrier. So, it's basically the only, I mean, there might be some other types in small amounts, but this magnesium, if you take it will go into your brain and there're a lot of studies on it for memory and mood and rest and relaxation. So, it's a great complement to Magnesium 8 and we made it as a standalone because there was no way we could get the therapeutic amount of magnesium threonate into the Magnesium 8 blend. So yes, we wanted people to have the option to take it as like a brain boost or like relaxation. So, it's great. It should be completely fine for pregnancy. It's just another magnesium essentially.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'll try it. Yeah. So, you take it both with the eight?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, you can take either whenever. I like taking a Magnesium NightCap at night, appropriately enough. But the studies actually usually do a biphasic dosing, like in the morning and evening. So, it won't make you tired per se, but it will help you sleep at night.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, I'm going to try it tonight.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. I've had so much amazing feedback of people.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I was going to say is I've been wanting to take it because I constantly see people saying what a game changer it is.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I'm so happy we're talking. Yeah. So that's at avalonx.us. And I was just going to say really quick, vitamin D. Did you know, do you like mushrooms?

Vanessa Spina: I love them. I have chanterelles in my fridge right now that I just got, I'm obsessed with mushrooms.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, “What is your favorite mushroom?” I know this is not--

Vanessa Spina: Probably, chanterelle. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: This is not important. Stop this train. Stop this train. [laughter] Bring it back. Okay.

Vanessa Spina: I just love because they're not part of the vegetable or fruit. Like, they're their own kingdom. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: They're crazy. And what's it called? The whole network of mushroom land. It expands underneath the ground, and they talk and it's a whole thing. Did you know you can put your mushrooms outside and charge them to fill them up with vitamin D? I just learned this because they produce vitamin D, so if you put them outside. The article I was reading, I have to fact check this, but it said you could get your daily requirements of vitamin D by putting your mushrooms outside for, like, 15 minutes.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. That's so cute.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Charge up your little mushrooms. Oh, it's like Mario Kart.

Vanessa Spina: My mushies.

Melanie Avalon: I love mushrooms. They're so good. They're like umami. They're just ahh, they're so good. I went through, like, a mushroom phase where I was like, “Oh, try all the mushrooms.”

Vanessa Spina: Okay, so what's your favorite? We have to end on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I did go through that phase, like I said. I did really like oyster mushrooms, but I didn't really digest them as well. I just eat every night. Okay, wait, portobello and baby bella, wait, there's ones that are the same. It just has to do with the timeline of their life. That blew my mind. It kind of blew my mind because button mushrooms are white, cremini are brown, okay. These are all the same mushroom. I didn't realize this. So, button mushrooms are white. They're like the toddlers or the babies. Then there's cremini, which are brown. Those are like the teenagers. And then there are portobellos, which are brown and larger and those are the adults. They're all the same mushroom, which is-- so when you go to the store and it's like, they're the same mushroom kind of upsetting. Kind of like the fact that tea leaves are all the same plant that blew my mind. That was really upsetting to me to learn that green tea and black tea are the same thing. I like those that I just mentioned because they're really easy for me to digest in my scallops. It's not very adventurous though.

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I love that we both love mushrooms. All the fungi fans out there will be loving this little bonus segment as well.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Should we answer her question about what makes you happy or grateful.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I mean, you, this podcast, my family, just being alive, the power of the mind and mindset, even just, I'm thankful for thankfulness and how powerful it is to just sit down and write down what you're thankful for in any moment. Because there's always something, no matter what you're going through, there's always something that you can be grateful for. And it gives you just such good vibes. It shifts your state, it's empowering. And it also just moves you up the emotional scale so you feel happier. I love the power of appreciation. I like to go on rampages of appreciation. It's such a powerful, underrated tool, and you can access it any moment and it's so amazing. So, I'm just thankful for everything, for podcasting, for the Internet we can talk right now, technology, for mushroom. [laughs] What about you? I could go on for another hour, so I'm going to stop.

Melanie Avalon: Same. There're so many things. Don't get me started. Well, yes. I'm so grateful for you and this podcast. It's just so wonderful. Every time I text Vanessa, I'm just like, so happy, so grateful.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, for listeners. Sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, listeners. Oh, yes. Oh, we're so grateful for the listeners. Something that I think about a lot. I am so grateful that my job and what I do in life is what I love. I am so grateful that what I get to do essentially every second of my life is my work. Not that I'm working my whole life, but my work is my love and my joy. I'm not having to clock in somewhere I don't want to be. I get to do what I love and I get to interact with so many people and share it with other people. I'm just so, so, so grateful for that. I can't even express enough. And then just all the things, like you said, “I could just go on and on and on.” And my relationships, my family, all the people in my life, I just really, really treasure. So red light. I'm holding a red-light thing in my hand right now. So many things. Okay. On that note, [laughter] this was like the mindset episode for listeners.

These show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 345. It will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions by emailing questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Just feeling so much thankfulness. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know. All gratitude.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for that wonderful question.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Thank you, Laura. All right, well, this has been wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Talk to you.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Oct 01

Episode 337: Special Guest Rebecca Rudisch, Balanced Dietary Choices For Animals, Pet Nutrition, Whole Food Diets, Preventable Illnesses, Entrepreneurship, Women In Business, Health Journeys, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #165 - Dr. Karen Becker

Welcome to Episode 337 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Visit Nutrisense.Com/Ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

YUMMERS: Co-Founded By Antoni Porowski And Jonathan Van Ness, Yummers Provides Premium-Quality, Tasty, Healthy “Gourmet” And “Functional" Mix-Ins To Support The Utmost Health Of Your Pet! Yummers Uses Premium-Grade Animal Proteins, Real Fruits And Veggies, And Each Ingredient Is Processed Separately From One Another To Maximize Flavor And Nutritional Value. Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At Yummerspets.Com/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

NUTRISENSE: Visit Nutrisense.Com/Ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Save $30 And Get 1 Month Of Free Nutritionist Support.

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

rebecca's back story

health challenges

getting into IF

snacking all day

getting the protein in and muscle building

Creating yummers

pet food nutrition

using real food

the yummers toppers

sourcing and quality

distribution

being a woman in business

work-life balance

working culture

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 337 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 337 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here with a very special guest today. I have been looking forward to this for so, so long. Listeners, okay, so the backstory on today's episode probably it was a while ago, over maybe a year and a half ago, I'm not even sure at this point. A fabulous listener of the show, Rebecca Rudisch, reached out to me via email. Now, I'm just trying to remember the origin story of all of this. I think she reached out about the topic of today's conversation, which is her incredible company, Yummers, which they make gourmet, pet food toppers as well as a new line of dog food. She reached out about just how she was a listener of the show and how she had this company and how she was all into the health of our pets.

I know we talk a lot about health of humans on this show, but very rarely do we dive into what we're actually feeding our pets. Rebecca and I just hit it off right away. She felt like an instant friend that I had known for years. I really do feel like that. And on top of that, she's pretty much one of the most inspiring people I think I've ever met. She is a role model for being a strong, entrepreneur woman who has done so many things. Her resume is just absolutely astounding. So, I knew we had to have her on the show for so many things to talk about. A, talk about how she integrates fasting into her life, how she does biohacking, health, diet, and fitness while being this awesome career-oriented woman, doing her companies, being a female COO.

Also, to talk about Yummers and the tragic situation of feeding our pets conventional pet food today and how Yummers is working to change that. Oh, and by the way, if listeners are fans of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Rebecca actually co-founded that company with Antoni Porowski and JVN from that show, so you guys may be familiar with them. I'm just so excited about this. I have so many things to talk about. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

Rebecca Rudisch: Oh, my gosh, I'm so honored. You were way too kind in that introduction. I have been waiting for this for a long time too and it's really fun to be here. You're right, when you come to the origin story, you're totally right. You happen to be talking about your mom's cats on one of the IF podcast episodes. I immediately, just for whatever reason, knew I had to reach out to you. I will tell you I've never done that with anybody before. So, I think we were destined to be friends, and I'm really really thrilled to be here today.

Melanie Avalon: I still remember reading your first email and I was so intrigued. I was like, “Who is this woman?” [chuckles] We just immediately became friends. You just understand all the things. I'm not kidding, Rebecca, I literally, when I am talking about you to anybody, I use you as the example. I'm like, “She is the most inspiring woman, I think, that I know personally,” and I am not-- I am not making that up. That is how I introduce you to people. [laughs] So, speaking of, there are so many things I want to talk to you about, but to introduce you to our audience, your personal story, because I know you went through your own health issues and your own things, and there're so many different ways I could phrase this. Have you always wanted to be an entrepreneur, work with different companies that you've worked with? How did your health journey play into that and ultimately what led you to founding Yummers?

Rebecca Rudisch: Yeah, I mean, it's a wild story and I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was younger. And just in terms of my background, I grew up in the Midwest to a very blue-collar family of very hardworking people, and I had no idea what it meant to be an entrepreneur. I worked a lot during high school and college, and I put myself through college and worked in a retail store, and I never dreamed that I would have the kind of life that I have now, and I didn't even know what that meant. But you're right, I did find my way through a lot of different challenges. So, like I said, I grew up in the Midwest, I went to college, I was really lucky and out of undergrad, I got a fabulous job in management consulting, and I happened to work in a retail store when I was putting myself through school, as I said.

I got scooped up into the retail practice with what was then Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, and it really set my career up. I loved it. I loved what I did and had a chance to work on a lot of really interesting things and all of that made me realize that I wanted to run a business. In the retail industry what that means is you go into a merchandising career. I started my career in merchandising with Target, was recruited to go work for Target and my health and wellness and really my CPG and food background really started there. At Target, I ran a bunch of businesses including the snacks and beverages business. I ran electronics and entertainment and my last job there I ran everything that Target calls healthcare which includes over-the-counter products and vitamins and supplements but also pharmacy, optical and clinics. I definitely had a strong interest in health and wellness much before that. But that really set me up to be the person at Target who was a spokesperson for everything health and wellness which was really an honor.

At the same time during my time at Target I was also going through a little bit of a health journey. I don't think I'll ever really know exactly what happened but I just call it my meltdown where I really started to have a lot of struggles with fatigue and a lot of actually numbness and tingling and my limbs and just very strange symptoms. At the end of it all, I was in intense pain. I had horrible back pain to the point of really not even being able to walk around the block and I was like 29 years old. It was awful. I was really fortunate that I started seeking out alternative care and it wasn't for lack of trying the traditional western medicine route, but I think a lot of people on this podcast can probably empathize that sometimes you don't get the answers that you really need through that process.

So, I found a chiropractor and an acupuncturist and I changed my diet and I eliminated gluten and dairy and a whole bunch of other things and I was really lucky that all of that really helped and made a dent. At some point, I got a diagnosis for Lyme disease. I'm not sure if I had it or not, it's really hard to tell, probably at some point I did. But I think all of that to say for the past almost 20 years I've really been able to manage a lot of things with just living better. I'm sure that's why at some point I found the IF Podcast because I'm always looking for ways to make myself healthier and to really boost all of the things in my life that are wellness related. But anyway, it was really interesting that when I was going through all of that I was also the health and wellness person at Target, which it felt in some ways very odd.

The other thing that I really learned in my time in merchandising because I went on from Target and believe it or not, from there the health and wellness person went and ran all of merchandising for 7-Eleven, which was also enlightening. Eventually, I would make my way to Petco, which is why I'm now in the pet industry. But one thing I really learned in my time merchandising at Target and 7-Eleven, because I had responsibility for a lot of food and beverage and healthcare products, is that the standards for processed food manufacturing and for all of the food development really are, I think, somewhat troubling. I know you talk about this a lot on both of your podcasts, but the industry that is creating packaged food today and it's creating packaged products, there's a lot there that is really troubling when you're thinking about the health and wellness of people and particularly people like me, who really need to have clean, real food in order to be healthy.

So, I could go on for hours. But a lot of that has really led me to where I am today. And in terms of getting to the point of today, all of that led me to be the Chief Merchandising Officer at one point at Petco, which I have always been in love with pets, but it was the best job ever because I got to live and breathe and eat and sleep nothing but pets all day long and it was awesome. I think has really solidified the fact that pets are one of the things I'm most passionate about personally and in business.

Melanie Avalon: I love all of this so much. See listeners, now you can see why she's so inspiring. Okay, so many things. I'm curious, when you were having your health challenges and hearing how old you were when you were at Target, that is really putting things in perspective for me, which has done so much. So, when you were having your health challenges, did you start feeling better overnight? Was it a slow journey? Was there a paradigm shift in your head that helped you feel better? Because now you and I always talk offline about how I'm so in awe of your travel skills and you're always killing it and traveling all over the world and doing all these things, which sounds very energetically draining to me. So, did you just wake up one day and feel better or was it a really slow process or what did that look like?

Rebecca Rudisch: It was so scary. It was truly, truly frightening. When you're 29 years old and you can't walk around the block, even grocery shopping was so challenging, except at least I could push a cart. And to me, at this point, it just seems surreal that that was my life. But I was terrified. At one point, I think the last doctor I went and I had an MRI on my back, and they couldn't really find anything. A doctor who was doing the best that he could, diagnosed me with something called stiff-person syndrome. I have no idea what this is to this day, but he said that the treatment for it would be to be put on massive amounts of muscle relaxers for the rest of my life, which essentially would have-- I wouldn't have even been able to go to work. It would have been awful and I think, Melanie, you know me at this point, and anybody who knows me, the idea of me not being able to work is terrifying because it's what I get so much passion out of and what I really love to do.

I was absolutely terrified. To this day, I don't even remember exactly how I found this person, but I found a chiropractic neurologist, and I was like, in the darkest of the darkest days. I found a chiropractic neurologist who did a full intake and he said, “I do things really differently.” He used some very different techniques that not only adjusted me physically, but also started to rewire my nervous system. By no means was it overnight, but within a couple of weeks, I was not in complete pain, and within a couple of months, I was walking a little bit better and really starting to see some improvement. It has been a journey though. I could never say that it was overnight. I could never say that I don't have any of the same symptoms that last today. But like I said, 20 years later, literally 20 years later, I get better every day.

Thank you for your callout on my travel skills. I don't know that I'm perfect by any means, but I think I feel incredibly lucky every day that I have never had to completely alter my life or hold myself back from anything because of it. I feel incredibly grateful for that and it's because of a lot of work. I would say that I was biohacking before biohacking was a thing or before I knew it was a thing, because it really is about constant adjustments and knowing my body and knowing what I need at any given time. Sometimes, I will just, I won't be able to go out when I'm out traveling or I will just stay home and take a rest because that's what I know my body needs. But for the most part, I'm all in on life and I do everything. So, I feel incredibly incredibly lucky.

Melanie Avalon: We have so many conversations about the travel, about the rest, the boundaries, and also, you're also a big foodie, so I'm always having you send me pictures of your meals and these crazy places that you go. It's so haunting to hear you say that about the grocery store thing. I had immediate flashbacks. I obviously did not have stiff-person syndrome, that's crazy. I've never heard of that before.

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't even know if it's a thing, to be honest with you, [laughs] but it was terrifying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it sounds like something they just give a label when they can't explain something too. I remember when I was severely anemic and wasn't aware, and that's when I was at my most fatigued, and I would drive to the grocery store and just sit in the car for 15 to 20 minutes trying to get the energy to walk inside the grocery store. It was so scary. I was like, “Am I dying?” So, it's really nice to know that-- not that we all go through really dark things, but it's really nice to be on the flipside. It just provides so much hope, I think, to me and to other people. So, thank you for sharing that. One last question about all of that. I'm curious, when you were in that state, was your work draining to you? Because you just mentioned how, it would be awful if your work was taken away from you, which is how I feel about everything that I do. So, was it draining for you or was it actually energizing for you or were you hiding behind it? What was that relationship like?

Rebecca Rudisch: It's such a good question. I would say it was what kept me going. It was the one place where I felt like I was still thriving. Honestly, I was thriving probably during this timeframe that I was going through everything. I probably got promoted like six or seven times. I kept having more opportunities to grow and advance in my career and do new things. And like I said, it was the one place where I felt whole and I felt like I was me. I felt what I put in was coming back out with a lot of reward and gosh, Melanie, I don't know what I would have done without it. I think we all read about or know people or just have people in our lives who have debilitating illnesses of some sort which keeps them from working or makes them have to go on disability or something like that. To me, that would have been the most devastating thing. I don't even know how I would have handled it, because I think the outlet that work became was just so important for me and it gave me a why, to continue to kind of push on.

Melanie Avalon: That's the exact same way I felt during everything, [chuckles] because you mentioned how you were trying to find answers and started looking into all these health modalities and diet and fitness. When did you start experimenting with intermittent fasting?

Rebecca Rudisch: Like so many things, I was probably experimenting with intermittent fasting without knowing it was intermittent fasting. I really just realized that and this is a little bit of a shift when I finally left the big corporate retail world that I had been in and started more of an entrepreneurial path. I really found that when I was working in an office all day, it's just like the food is always there. People are always like there's always breakfast, and then there's a lunch, and then there're snacks, and then there's dinner. And particularly when you're the snack and beverage buyer, you are constantly being barraged with samples of everything. Even when I ran healthcare, there were always power bars or not power bars, but like protein bars and everything everywhere. So, I was always in that mode of like, snack, snack, snack, with meals and dinners out and whatever.

I'll be honest, I just never felt that good. When I stopped working in an office all the time, I found that I was just really happy eating twice a day. I usually work out in the morning and it's kind of my thing. So, I like to work out on an empty stomach. So, I would just find that I wouldn't really need to have anything to eat until like 11 or 12 in the afternoon or whatever. Then, I actually had a friend visit me who talked about how she was doing intermittent fasting. I said, “Oh, what is that? And she goes, “Oh, I just don't eat breakfast anymore.” [laughs] I said, “Oh, well, I think I do that too,” but I didn't really know that that's what it was. She started talking about all of the health benefits of it, which really got me intrigued. I think that's when I officially would have called myself an intermittent faster.

Since then, I changed it up a little bit. I think my body's changed a little bit. I have a really intense goal right now of putting on muscle. I just turned 49, I'm on the verge of 50, and the whole muscle loss as you get a little bit older, it's a real real thing. So, now it's all about muscle for me. I find that what I used to do with intermittent fasting of skipping breakfast and doing probably like 16 hours without eating. I probably more often I'm doing like 12 or 13 instead, just because I like to eat like two really big protein meals, but I'm still doing two meals a day and I feel so much better. It's better for my body. I think after all the years of snacking constantly, my body's just relieved to not have to be doing that anymore. So, it's been very natural and I'm glad I have a name for it now. I just thought I was skipping breakfast. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, I just had an epiphany I don't think I've ever had about intermittent fasting. This is a new thought for me. It just occurred to me because people ask all the time about being in social situations or work situations and if people comment on why they're not eating because they're fasting or people feeling like they're fasting and they feel awkward about it or they don't want to decline the food because of the social implications. It just occurred to me that if you're doing it, “by accident” like you were because you just weren't eating because you weren't hungry. Basically, you could be in the exact same situation, but because you haven't put a label on it in your head as I'm fasting, I think you can easily decline things because it's just you're declining because you're not hungry. Compared to if you have the label in your head that you're doing it because you're fasting, even though you could be in the exact same situation or exact same state. Either way, it's like when people add this label in their head, then all of a sudden, they bring in all of this baggage of, “Oh, I have to explain it or I'm not being normal.” Or compared to, if you're just not hungry, you just say you're not hungry. I just never thought about that before.

Rebecca Rudisch: I agree. And it's so funny that you say that, because my mom, when I was growing up, I don't think I've ever seen, well, now I have, but I don't think when I was a kid, I ever saw my mom eat breakfast. She had coffee every day and she was like, “Coffee is my breakfast. That's all I want.” She had the metabolism of a hummingbird, and she just always had energy, and nobody ever bugged her about it. It was never a thing. But she was an intermittent faster too. She had black coffee every day for breakfast and now there's this whole thing around it. But it was just normal for her.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting. Yeah. I never put that together in my head. Also, really random, do you know the mind-blowing fact about the hummingbird?

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't think I do.

Melanie Avalon: Did you know-- I learned this when I interviewed Dr. Rick Johnson, who I just simply adore? He talks about the hummingbird in his book Nature Wants Us to Be Fat. So, the hummingbird, it becomes diabetic every night. At some point in its circadian rhythm, it drinks all this nectar and it literally becomes diabetic. Like, if you looked at its blood profile, does so much activity with its metabolism that it undoes all that damage, and then it rinses and repeats. Isn't that crazy? Because you mentioned, the metabolism of a hummingbird. [laughs] But in any case, okay, so when you did put a label on intermittent fasting in your head, when you realized that's what you're doing, did you experience issues with work and social situations of feeling like you wanted to decline the eating situations but feeling awkward about it socially?

Rebecca Rudisch: I don't think so. It’s always been my own person as it relates to that, and I don't really think about it that way. I guess now, as an entrepreneur, for the most part we all work remotely. So, I'm not in an office every day, which definitely makes a big difference because you're not constantly in that kind of situation. My team knows sometimes I have breakfast, sometimes I have lunch, I always have dinner. I think we're all pretty accepting of where we're at from a health standpoint and that's a great place to be, but I do know it can be really challenging. I think back to all of my years in an office setting where I was eating three meals plus snacks a day. I think there probably can be a little bit more of a stigma of always needing to be in some kind of feeding situation.

But I do think there's starting to be a little bit more awareness around the fact that that isn't as healthy as what people thought it was for a long time again. Like I'll come back to I ran the snack department. We were all about people thinking they needed to eat all the time. We were probably responsible [laughs] for a lot of it. Certainly, all the research from the big CPG companies is there to propagate people's belief that they're going to better off if they just continue to graze all day long. To me, even though I was in that business and in that mode, it never felt good. I certainly did it, but I never felt great as I did it, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it does, completely. And on the protein front, it's awesome to hear about your focus on muscle and protein. We talk about that so much on this show. A question, we get from listeners all the time is they can't grasp how to fit in extra protein into a shortened eating window. I know you said that you elongated your eating window a bit to accommodate the protein. So, how do you fit in all the protein?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, what I found that is working really really well is I eat two big meals a day. And that's why I stretch them out so much, because I'm just not hungry in the middle. But two big meals a day and a really good chunk of protein in both. I've found that my body just responds better to animal protein than it does to plant protein. But I used to do a lot of plant protein too, but I'll just really eat like 40, 50 g a meal and it's working for me. I'm on all the bio-hacks as well and really intense exercise routine that's really helping as well. But I just think for me it's just really been about two really good solid meals instead of multiple times a day. Some people do well with three or more, but for me it's just great to have two really good sizable meals.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I love it. And for listeners, I think, okay, when you and I first started talking about EMSculpt, you had already done it or did you start doing it after I was doing it?

Rebecca Rudisch: I think we started doing it right around the same time I do EMSculpt and I think that's really helped in some cases. Also, I'm a huge huge believer of the CAROL Bike, so just like small bursts of cardio training. So, you and I also share that. The other thing that it's been a game changer for me is the ARX, which is robotic resistance training. So, basically, you're stronger on your eccentric motion than on your concentric motion, so it pushes back on you on the eccentric so that you get twice as much muscle building. So, I am all into anything that can make all of this not easier, [chuckles] but at least more effective.

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm all about it. Maximum gain, minimum pain, minimum time invested. Sounds like the ARX is like the resistant muscle building equivalent of CAROL and that CAROL is using AI resistance to give you the perfect REHIT workout.

Rebecca Rudisch: Exactly, right? Yes, exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, so historically, you were working in these retail companies. What made you make the decision to leave that career path and go true entrepreneur spirit, which I think can be really scary for a lot of people and founding an entire company, what was that experience like?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, I can't say that I jumped all in and just was able to do it overnight by any stretch. After I left Petco, like I said, I had been in charge of all of merchandising there. I thought about doing something entrepreneurial and I think I've always wanted to really do something that has an opportunity to change people's lives and make them better. When I was in snacks and beverages or health and wellness at Target, just so often, I had this amazing opportunity to sit across the table from some of the coolest brands and the brands that have made the biggest difference on people's lives in the past couple of decades. Whether it was method cleaning or OLLY Vitamins or Cliff Bar or other brands that were just there to make people's lives just a little bit better, to use ingredients that were cleaner, to use less sugar, less chemicals for your home or any of those things.

It was so inspirational to me to sit across from those founders when they were coming into Target and hear them tell their story, hear them talk about their why and their purpose. The thing that I loved more than anything else about the jobs that I had was being able to help those small companies who were making the world better succeed. So many times, I thought to myself, maybe someday I'll be able to be in that same position, and maybe someday the idea will come to me and I'll be able to make that leap. Then I would chicken out and I would just keep going on my path as a retail executive. I'm so fortunate that I did because finally I had a moment where because of everything that I had done, I had somebody knock on my door and this was a person who really helped me make the connection for Yummers.

While it was an opportunity to be a founder and to start a new company, it was really because somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Your experience is exactly what we need to do something in pet, will you come and join us?” So, I would say, I admire people who can just do it on their own. I am the person who needs to have other people around me. I am inspired by ideation and brainstorming with other people. I like to collaborate. I think best where I have an opportunity to have a sounding board or a partner. And the way that this all worked was perfect. But I've always had a fire in my belly to do something more entrepreneurial, and I feel incredibly grateful that I'm finally here.

Melanie Avalon: So, somebody came to you with the idea for Yummers specifically or was just like the idea of something like that?

Rebecca Rudisch: Yeah. So, Yummers actually came out of an incubator called Caravan, which is basically, we are a part of/venture of Creative Artists Talent Agency, which is why I had a chance to meet Jonathan and Antoni. So, Caravan had identified pet as an area that they wanted to go into. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do in pet. They didn't really know much about pet, but the pet industry is amazing for so many reasons and they thought so too. So, when they said, “We really want to do something in the pet business do you have any ideas?” I said, “Well, yes, I do.” [chuckles] So, that's exactly where Yummers was born, was through some of those ideas and the opportunity to join forces with JVN and Antoni as well.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. So many questions about this. And for listeners, they probably caught this, but Creative Artists Agency is CAA, which we hear that terminology more often, which is the biggest, it's at the top three for the biggest agencies in the entertainment sphere. So, very cool. Okay, so when you sat down, not really, but sat down to brainstorm and create what would ultimately become Yummers, what were your thoughts and what are your thoughts on the conventional pet food industry the way it is now, and what were you looking to achieve with Yummers?

Rebecca Rudisch: What happened with Yummers or where Yummers came from was really that desire to bring better to pets. There were a couple of areas that I was really fascinated by as I really started digging in and determining what exactly our product offering would be. There're really two things, first, the conventional pet food industry in terms of the quality of the product, basically it's a corollary to the human snack food business in so many different ways. Even, when I've toured some of the facilities and seen the production, you basically take ingredients which are certain ingredients, some of them are great, some of them aren't so great, and put them into an extruder. And out comes basically pellets of food that have been stripped of a lot of nutrition and almost all of the flavor and then their [unintelligible [00:33:34] are put back on top of it. Vitamins and minerals are kind of readded to the food so that it has complete and balanced nutrition and reminds me a lot of cereal.

Back in the food days, extruders are how you make Cheerios. So, it's the exact same thing. You take ingredients, you put them through a huge heat process and out comes something that really is not as nutritious. And with pet food, the vast majority of people feed kibble as a pet food. And the nutrition as we just talked about is not all that great. I can say that with my own opinion. But also, it doesn't make the pet that happy, it doesn't make the human that happy. And so much of life and a relationship with your friends is really around food and creating great moments over a great meal. And yet so many people see their pet, their dog or their cat as their best friend and they're just pouring this brown kibble into a bowl every day and putting it on the ground and saying "chow down buddy."

We really started to see that people weren't satisfied feeding that way anymore. So, the initial line of products that we launched with Yummers was this incredibly nutritious and we can talk about the way that they were prepared in a minute, but this incredibly nutritious and absolutely delicious range of products that were meant to be mix ins and toppers for either dog food or cat food. And some of them are just tasty, gourmet proteins and mixtures that just make the food taste better and give the human being the opportunity to make the meal a little bit more interesting. And then the other part of our assortment is really products that are, we call them supplements or functional. So, they are oriented around conditions that might be common for pets like hip and joint issues, or skin and coat issues, or digestive issues. We have supplements that you just put a little bit on top of the food and you can provide therapeutic doses of ingredients that help with those conditions every day during mealtime.

So, that's really where we started. And the core of our belief was around the way that the product was prepared. We call our products perfectly prepared because we prepare every one of our ingredients for the optimal bioavailability or nutrient availability for the body as well as they have to be incredibly tasty. Our name is Yummers, so they better be good. So, all of our products test off the charts for both nutrition as well as just being really tasty for the pet.

Melanie Avalon: This is so amazing. For listeners, I highly recommend checking out. I did an interview with Dr. Karen Becker for her book The Forever Dog. Honestly, reading that book was one of the most eye-opening things I've ever read. I've read a lot of books. I don't even have a dog. I learned so much in that book. Point being though, so much of what you said right now, I was just again getting flashbacks because she talks about how house pets, our cats and our dogs are really the only animal species on the planet that is eating processed food, a lot of them eating processed food every single meal for their entire lives. I mean, I guess some humans might as well. It's just shocking. It's not surprising to me at all that so many health conditions, mental health conditions, different diseases that we see in humans, we now see in our pets and I really believe it's really going back to the food situation.

Rebecca Rudisch: I think the food makes such a huge difference. I'll talk about Yummers food and what we've done, but I love the human grade fresh and frozen food that's available now and some of the companies out there that have done such a good job of bringing that product and making it available to pet parents. But what I also know is that today over 50% of pet parents, actually closer to 80% of pet parents are feeding processed kibble two or three times a day as the sole source of nutrition. And Melanie, just as you said, and part of that is because it's convenient, part of it is because it's more affordable. It's what they're used to. They don't want know take the fresh stuff out of the freezer and thaw it and have it in the refrigerator. I think that's the reality. So, with Yummers, we've really of struck the middle ground of having a product that is incredibly nutritious and prepared in the way that the ingredients can best absorbed for the pet.

At the same time, it is dry and it can be stored in the cupboard and it does have a little bit longer shelf life because of the fact that it's just freeze dried, it's just air dried and just like any other freeze-dried food that you eat as a human, it does last longer. So, it provides the same convenience, but it is so much better for the pet than feeding the standard processed kibble.

Melanie Avalon: Because I remember at one point, I was thinking of possibly working on a pet food line and I was diving deep into the rabbit hole because there are so many potential options that you can go as far as what type of pet food to make. It was so much of what you just said that it can be really intimidating for people, not cost-effective time wise, difficult to go on a completely Whole Foods raw diet or something like that with their pet. There needs to be something that's really accessible to people. I think what you're doing is so incredible for that. I can speak to the pets loving it. My sister has a cat, Jackie. My mom has her dog, Mia. And Rebecca was so kind and sent us over so many things and I gave it to them. I kept getting texts over and over about how obsessed they were with the food. And my sister kept asking for more saying how much Jackie was obsessed with it. And then yesterday, I sent Rebecca this. I texted this to her. But our assistant Sharon on the show sent me a video of her dog Tilly, of her putting Yummers into her dog Tilly's food and Tilly is, she's a bulldog and she's freaking out and just so excited about it leading up to eating it. I asked Sharon, I was like, “Does she always act that way around food?” She's like, “No, she's never done this before until Yummers.” So, they love it. They love it.

Rebecca Rudisch: You made my day when you sent that video. It always makes my day. But Melanie, I will tell you, she is not alone. My dog loves his food. He's really never turned down a good bowl of food, but he loves his Yummers. It seems to be the case for everybody. I just find it absolutely fascinating because I know how this stuff is made. I have seen every aspect of the production and it's just chicken that's freeze dried or beef that's freeze dried. It's just sweet potatoes that are air dried. It's just an ancient grain that is cooked for bioavailability. It's just real food. And to see my dog, to see Tilly, to see every other dog that I see go so crazy over it, actually tells me something about what I have been feeding him his whole life so far. Because this is just real food, it's just awesome real food and for him to get this excited about it, I think it's because instinctively, they know it's good for them, and they know that it's what their body needs. So, I love seeing it. I feel good every day. We get testimonials every once in a while, that just bring tears to my eyes about pets who might have cancer or who really struggle with their appetite. You give them some Yummers and they polish off the bowl, and that makes me really happy because I really do believe that we're solving for something that's really really powerful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so true. I hadn't thought about it in that aspect, but just it's such simple ingredients and they're just loving it so much, which does tell a lot about probably the current nutritional state of the conventional processed food. How did you decide which ingredients to include?

Rebecca Rudisch: A lot of testing. Again, I come back to the fact that our goal is to be the most nutritious and also the most tasty. So, we compromised on nothing. We knew that we wanted a variety of proteins because I think probably some of the listeners will empathize different pets have different allergies or sensitivities to different proteins. So, we wanted to have a good variety of proteins for customers to choose from. We also wanted to make sure that the ingredients that we chose were the best ingredients and the most nutritious. So, for example, I said, we have real chunks of chicken breast in our food because the protein is very bioavailable for pets or with other formulas, we have real salmon or real beef liver. Again, because of the nutrient bioavailability for the pet.

We chose ancient grains because there's more fiber than traditional, like brown rice or rice that would be used in a pet food or grain-free pet foods, which were, I think, trendy for a while. But people have started to realize that having some grains that are made bioavailable is a really good thing for a lot of pets. We chose sweet potatoes and a few other things just because pets really love them and they're incredibly nutritious. I'll tell a funny story. At one point, we did some experimentation of a formula with green beans, which would have been a good addition and certainly provided a little bit of variety. But we learned that a lot of pets don't like green beans very much because they would eat every nugget of the food and they would leave the green beans behind.

So, basically my mantra became only empty bowls were acceptable. So, nothing that is in the food has any reject factor with the pets. And that has been a little bit of our mantra. So, the food is amazing. If your listeners would indulge me and go take a look at yummerspets.com. You can see it looks different. It does not look like the kibble that they're used to feeding. It looks different because it is. You can really see each of the ingredients and how they all come together in the bowl. So, it's really great product. I really hope all of your listeners who have pets will try it. We're offering them the opportunity to do that for free, so we're really excited for that as well.

Melanie Avalon: So, if listeners go to yummerspets.com/ifpodcast you can actually try the new dog food line, a trial version of it, completely for free. Is it three flavors that you have?

Rebecca Rudisch: Three flavors, yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, you get to pick your favorite, get that completely free. You'll only pay shipping, which is so so awesome. Then also sitewide you can get 20% off with the coupon code IFPODCAST20, so IFPODCAST20, so thank you so much, Rebecca, for that, really really appreciate that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Thank you. I really hope we would love if every pet in America were to be able to have Yummers in their bowl. So, we want to do anything we can to make that happen.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. And listeners, feel free to send us videos or feedback about how much your pets love it because it's so wonderful to see. Comment on the grains, because I looked up the grains that you use and is it sorghum, millet, and brown rice?

Rebecca Rudisch: Exactly right.

Melanie Avalon: Those are all gluten-free grains.

Rebecca Rudisch: All gluten free, they are gluten free. They're all source of the highest quality and they're all very intentional in terms of the nutrient profile. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you find-- Was it difference formulating the dog food versus the pet food and the toppers or was it a pretty similar process?

Rebecca Rudisch: No, it's totally different. I always say and this probably is analogy that only works for a nerd like me. But developing the toppers was like developing snacks where there weren't a lot of rules and you could experiment with a lot of different things with the exception of the supplement toppers, because those we wanted to make sure to have a real efficacious dose. But like one of our toppers, for example, is just shredded cheese and it's one of our top sellers because people really love how human it is and you can just sprinkle a little bit on the food and that was just a creative idea that we had. We have some really great stuff coming. So, I really encourage people to take a look at what we have coming. At the end of the year, we have another really great supplement topper coming and we're going to keep developing more.

But a lot of that is just fun stuff that we can do and there doesn't need to be as much rigor around the complete and balanced nutrition. When you develop a dog or a cat food, the standards in terms of being complete and balanced are very rigorous. I've always said, I think in many ways developing pet food is harder than developing a lot of human food because there is a very clear standard in terms of the nutrition and the balance of macros as well as the balance of vitamins and minerals and other things. The pet industry in some ways is way behind people and in some ways there's even more standards. So, we were very careful in the development of the food to make sure that it is complete and balanced, that it is incredibly healthy for pets. It fits all breeds and life stages and doing that, it's a lot of work to get the formulations right.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just thinking about how speaking of the simple ingredients, I remember when you first sent me the toppers because it was right before I was going to Austin for an event. I was looking at the ingredients and I was like, “Oh. I was like, I could eat this. I was like, “Maybe I should pack [laughs] this in my suitcase and then I'll have something to eat” because it was literally just like chicken. I remember I texted you about that. You're like, “I can't officially recommend that.” [laughs]

Rebecca Rudisch: There's nothing that would tell you that you couldn't, but I'm not going to recommend it and I wouldn't recommend it to any of your listeners. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that I share, but I have to constantly tell Antoni that he really shouldn't be putting the cheese on a salad, even though he's talked often about how he loves to put the cheese on the salad. I cannot endorse that behavior. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that I shared that because that is his favorite item.

Melanie Avalon: That’s so funny that's. Especially in the beginning when they were posting on Instagram and a lot, did you have to have some talks about what you could and could not post with that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Particularly, as it relates to them eating the food? Yes. Not that it wouldn't be a good thing, but no, we cannot endorse that. That is not. Again, in fact, what I can also say is that our supplier for one of the products actually ate only his food for a month and actually has some video recordings of it. And again, we can't endorse that. But it's really good food. The quality is impeccable. But no, I wouldn't suggest that any of your listeners start eating it for lunch.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. What are some of the practices like with the proteins as far as the sourcing and the raising practices of those animals?

Rebecca Rudisch: So, we just have really high standards and it's just real human food. So, the chicken is just chicken breast, beef liver is just beef liver. We source from very high-quality sources and all in the USA, with the exception of we have lamb that's from New Zealand. So, we go for the best of the best in terms of sourcing location. We believe that it's just important that the ingredients are the best ingredients that you can put into the food because I think that's why it's so delicious and certainly why the nutritional value is much higher than what you would find in conventional food.

Melanie Avalon: I love it, love it. I'm curious what has been the response because you do have the line in Petco. What has it been like selling it in Petco versus direct to consumer online?

Rebecca Rudisch: It's really interesting. We sell it at Petco. We also sell for your California listeners. We sell at an awesome retailer called Pet Food Express. And then we do sell on direct to consumer. I think we just attract different customers in every location and we see it with the products that we sell. So, at Petco, we have a much higher percentage of our sales coming from cat customers than we do in our direct to consumer, I think, we just have a lot more dog customers coming direct to consumer. Our direct-to-consumer customers tend to like to buy more of the supplements and similarly with Pet Food Express, we just see a lot more of trading into the supplement SKUs. We also see that a lot of people on our own website like to buy multiples. So, they'll like maybe a beef liver and a digestive and a skin and coat or something like that. We've created some bundles around some of those more common combinations as well. But I just think we're attracting different customers with all of the different points of distribution, which is great, because it just means that we're able to reach more customers and they can use Yummers for either along with food that they've already been feeding or now they can try our food.

Melanie Avalon: You said there are a lot of great things coming in the pipeline, so how do you feel-- Because I know for me, once I created my first supplement line with AvalonX and I created the Serrapeptase, it was just like it lit this fire in me. I was like, “Now I just want to create all the things.” So, what has been your experience now with having this power and agency to create products? Do you want to make a million more different things with Yummers or how do you feel about all of it?

Rebecca Rudisch: Absolutely, yes, I know exactly what you mean that fire in your belly that just lights you up and you just get so many ideas and you're inspired from so many different things. I've always been that way. I have been a product junkie for my entire life. I'm always looking for white space in different categories. I think part of it because I've run so many businesses in my career. My mind is always going on like, what's next? What's better? What doesn't exist yet? What are trends in the marketplace whether it's ingredients or whatever? So, yes, I'm completely inspired to create a lot more Yummers products. My team's mission is truly, as I said earlier, but our mission is to have Yummers in every bowl.

That doesn't mean that every single person who tries Yummers has to change to our food. We have a great food. I'm thrilled with it. I hope everybody in the US wants to feed it, but if they don't, if they like what they're feeding now or their vet recommends something, we get it. That means that people have something that they like, they might not want to switch, but they can always add a topper or a mix in, and they can always make their meal just a little bit better. So, I start to think about what people might want to do to make the usual meal an extra special dinner. My mind goes crazy. So yes, there're lots of really fun stuff coming. I've always been inspired by things that are really relevant for humans. So, things like superfoods and some of the superfood ingredients I'm totally into right now. I'll just give a little peek under the tent.

I'm totally into the benefit of mushrooms for human health and so many of the things that humans find value in terms of turkey tail mushrooms or lion's mane or chaga, all of those benefits that humans are getting out of those products translate to pet or antioxidants or probiotics, things like that. So, we're developing some really cool stuff that will come out at the end of the year and we're going to keep going from there, new and innovative things to add to the bowl.

Melanie Avalon: It reminds me as well you're talking about how these compounds and these foods that apply to humans apply to pets. I keep mentioning that The Forever Dog book, but really, listeners, I recommend reading it. That was the big takeaway I took from that book, was just how similar all of these practices that we do for ourselves as humans apply to our pets equally. It’s really, honestly pretty mind blowing. Also, something I thought of with you talking about animals with sensitivities and things like that. I learned a lot about prescription pet food, and I won't even go into it in granular detail. But that's something else she talks about in that book. That really blew my mind because I always thought prescription pet food was from a doctor. I thought it was actually really medical, but I don't want to get controversial. But it's not really, it's still a product of the pet food industry, which is shocking. Oh, you mentioned earlier how you reached out because you heard me share my story on the podcast. Was it me talking about how my cat Misty had died from diabetes? Was that what it was about?

Rebecca Rudisch: It might have. I vividly remember you talking about-- I think you had just started to dive deep into The Forever Dog when we met. I think you were just starting to recognize how challenging the pet food industry is. I think, yes, I think it was your cat and diabetes but I don't remember exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Because my cat Misty, who I adored, I actually have a story about that, but I'll circle back to it. Yeah so, she died of diabetes. I remember my mom made this comment. She was like, “Oh, well, all cats die from diabetes if they live long enough.” My mom has a tendency to make very exaggerated claims. So, I was like, “That's not true.” And then I went and googled it and yeah, basically I was looking up on PubMed, like cat mortality studies and basically if the modern house cat lives long enough, it usually dies from diabetes. And that blew my mind and that's when I was like, “Okay, there is something very wrong here in the conventional pet food system, very, very wrong."

Rebecca Rudisch: It's so true because we all know how preventable diabetes is for humans.

Melanie Avalon: Diabetes or kidney disease? I think it's kidney disease. I might need to resay that.

Rebecca Rudisch: Probably a combination of both and actually a little bit of a tangent, but we have a phenomenal vet on our team. She's absolutely incredible. I learn from her every day. And we happened to be at dinner just a couple of weeks ago and she was talking about one of the causes of kidney issues and bladder issues for cats is actually that they get really nervous and so their bladders or whatever, I don't know, if I can describe it the right way, and I don't want to paraphrase her because she's so brilliant, but it's their bladder spasm. If they were calmer and potentially had more even some calming supplements, that a lot of the bladder issues that cats had would not be prevalent. I was fascinated by that. So, I'm absolutely fortunate to have her on our team because she has really true insight into the why physically certain conditions happen with pets. I'm really optimistic that we're going to be able to do some great things and bring some really great solutions to the market too.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because I think it was chronic kidney disease, but Misty did have diabetes, and like you said, I think it all goes together, and it's not something that like that doesn't happen in cats in the wild. So, there's something going on here. Well, okay. I have so many more things I could talk to you about, maybe to bring everything full circle because we opened this up in the beginning, talking more about you and your personal story. This is a tangent question, but what has been your experience as specifically a female in business? Again, I mentioned at the beginning how I'm just so inspired by you and everything that you've done. Have you had any experience of that being a hurdle in your journey or even in your favor? What is it like being a woman in business?

Rebecca Rudisch: I feel like I've been really lucky, but I also do look back and I think the world has evolved a lot since I started my career, and I definitely feel like there have been a lot of challenges and some opportunities too. I would say probably a mix of both. I definitely think that and I coach a lot of women as leaders and one of the things that I get the most energy out of in the world is building teams and specifically building up and helping women leaders along the way. I think the idea of the impostor syndrome is real. It's a real thing. I absolutely would say that I, at various points in time in my career, have had it. So, I think there's some aspect of being a woman and business that we might even get in our own way a little bit.

I take full ownership of the fact that there have been some situations where I have felt intimidated or I have felt like there have been challenges that I've been up against. I won't tell the full story, but some of the behavior of people on my team when I was really early in my career, it wouldn't be condoned today, let's just put it that way. But that was real. The guys had one set of rules and a social situation, and the women didn't or had a different set of rules, so to speak. I felt like in my career I've been able to overcome a lot and I've had a lot of really great opportunities. I moved fast. I had great opportunities for promotion and leadership. There were a couple of times when I did feel like there was more of boy’s club going on and I think a lot of that was pretty real.

I worked in companies that were pretty male dominated in many cases and I definitely felt that. I think probably the time that I felt the most like it was difficult to be a woman was really when I was fundraising for Yummers. It wasn't easy. I think, in the industry, there's just a lot of understanding that it is harder as a woman trying to raise money for a company. I don't really know what it is, but there still seems to be a little bit of a ceiling there. I was incredibly successful and I'm eternally grateful for it, but it was hard, and I definitely felt a little bit of that. At the same time, I do think that the world is changing quickly. I'm on a board that I know I was recruited onto because they wanted a woman and because it was founded by a very inspiring young woman.

One of her stipulations is that there would be a certain representation of women on the board. I feel pretty lucky about that because I was recruited and my gender certainly was a piece of the reason that I got the role. So, I think there's a lot happening that is really, I think, good. I would just give a lot of advice to anybody who is in the business world today. Taking advantage of every opportunity you have. I think probably the biggest piece of advice I would have is, if you have any of the impostor syndrome happening, get over it and find a way to get over it. One of the things that I like doing more than anything is helping others get past it because it's real. I would say it's not only women, but definitely I think women tend to have a lot of it just inherently.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I can speak to that to listeners that Rebecca is being completely authentic in everything that she said, because there've been so many times, I've connected you to fellow women that I know that you've wanted to connect with. I remember I didn't tell you this, but one of the women that I connected you to, I think you did a call with her or something, and then I talked to my friend afterwards, and she's like, “Rebecca is so nice. She's so incredible. She's so amazing.” She was like, “But I don't know what she wants from me, because she just says she wants to just help.” I was like, “She does,” [laughs] that's who she is. So, yeah. It's really wonderful to see you supporting fellow women and inspiring others and I know I personally appreciate it so, so much. One last question, how do you work on your work-life balance with your health now?

Rebecca Rudisch: I call it work-life integration. I don't know that I've ever had work-life balance. I'm just going to call it integration because if I'm being honest about it, I think that's probably more what it is. I would say in the last 10 years or so in my career, I feel very lucky that I have been able to really integrate my work and my life and I had the wonderful opportunity to remarry. I am with the love of my life now, who is so incredibly supportive of me and also really wants to participate and wants to be a part of what I'm doing at work and so I think one great blessing I have is I'm going to New York next week and my husband's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll come with you.” So, he's going to come. I'll be working most of the time that I'm there, but we'll hang out a little bit when I'm not working and probably go have a good foodie dinner and I'll send you pictures Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Rebecca Rudisch: You know, but I think that's a big piece and I've really started to be good about setting boundaries, and I don't think I was always good about this before, but talk about self-care or bio-hacks or whatever else I do, they are mandatory, and that is how I keep my energy up, that's how I eliminate stress. They're absolutely set in stone and I will not compromise them. It doesn't mean that I get to do red light every day. It doesn't mean that I get to go do the CAROL Bike every day. But I definitely schedule time for those things. Not as much as you, Melanie. You are my inspiration as it relates to blocking off your calendar for self-care. I will someday be that good. But I do know how important it is for me as a leader to have the energy that I need to be a leader.

Those are things that are just they're nonnegotiable. So, I think to summarize, I would say set boundaries. I schedule in the time that I need for myself whether it's exercise or self-care or whatever. I bring my husband and my friends into the work that I do and I'm really lucky to do that. I've recognized that it's always a journey and I have to stay flexible and I also have to make sure that others are flexible. The other thing I would say is that I'm really proud of this. I'm so proud of this. Yummers is the first time that I've had the ability to create a company culture from the ground up. I've worked for big companies before, the culture is what it is and you can have a tiny impact, but you can't really change Target. I loved it, I loved it there, but it was Target and I get to create the culture for Yummers. It's really important to me that wellness is at the core of our culture.

So, you talk about work-life balance and you talk about wellness. One of the things that we do as a team is, if we have a meeting that's over like 2 hours long, like if we have a monthly meeting or something, we do a walking break. So, we all go off video and we take our phones and we go for a walk and we walk and talk about something that doesn't require a presentation. Or when we have our team off sites, we have them at my house because we're a tiny little team. But when we have our team off sites, we build in time for a walk every day after lunch, we build in wellness time. I instituted a wellness benefit with the team and they love it. We all have our wellness goals and we talk about them as a team and we help each other out and support each other. So, I try to bring that work-life balance in a lot of different ways. I don't think there is any one way, but it's something that's incredibly important to me and always top of mind.

Melanie Avalon: I love that reframe of work-life integration. It just occurred to me, I think we need to rebrand the word self-care because I think we don't call like-- when we take our car to the gas station, we don't call it self-care for the car. We call it just filling up the car with gas. I just think it's so important. You have to schedule time into your life to fill yourself up with energy and rest and you have to take care of your body that you're in. We call it self-care. Then I think people think that's selfish because of the word. So, I'm voting for like a new word for self-care.

Rebecca Rudisch: I will vote with you. That's a good point.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you. This has been so incredibly amazing. Again, you're so kind. So, for listeners, if you like to get your own Yummers, so you can get 20% off sitewide @yummerspets.com/ifpodcast and then you can also get that free dog food and one of their three flavors for free, just go to yummerspets.com/ifpodcast and that offer will be there as well. Well, this was amazing. Anything else that you would like to share with our listeners, Rebecca, about Yummers or where you're at or anything that you would like to put out there.

Rebecca Rudisch: I mean, please take us up on the opportunity to try out some Yummers like it would mean the world to us. And please provide any feedback. We're trying to be the most amazing company for your pets, so please do that. I just want to say thank you, Melanie. Your community is so inspiring and I know that it is because of all the hard work that you do. And you've been so kind to me in this conversation. I just want to say you were a true inspiration to me and I know to so many of the people who are listening today. So, thank you for having me. This has been really really special.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, you're so sweet. I so enjoyed this and I'm so grateful that you sent that email and reached out those many many months ago, because for listeners, Rebecca and I have many potential adventures we want to go on in the future. But I just so appreciate your friendship and this relationship and I'm super excited to see everything that you do with Yummers and I'm super excited for listeners to try it and report back. So, yes, this has been wonderful and I guess I will talk to you very soon.

Rebecca Rudisch: Talk to you soon. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: You too, Rebecca. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Sep 03

Episode 333: Tone Device Gen 2, Measuring Breath Ketones, Ketosis, Fat Loss, Muscle Sparing, Protein Recipes, The Mandela Effect, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get 1 month of free nutritionist support.

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 grass-fed filet mignons and 2 wild-caught lobster tails for FREE in your first box plus $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get 1 month of free nutritionist support.

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 Grass-Fed Filet Mignons And 2 Wild-Caught Lobster Tails For FREE In Your First Box Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

TONE DEVICE: Get on the exclusive VIP list to be notified when the 2nd Generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Niki - Could or should I increase my protein intake on the other days?

Listener Q&A: Nancy - How can I possibly get 120 grams of protein daily when I typically fast 20:4?

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 333 “Oh, such a cool number,” of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, palindromes. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

How are you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I love the number. It's so in alignment, 333. So, yeah, feeling good about that. And three is one of my lucky numbers, so it bodes well for the episode.

Melanie Avalon: That's wonderful. And okay, I know we literally just had a conversation about the tangents we go on, but I just have to [laughs] ask you something really quickly related, because every single night now, I go in this rabbit hole, wormhole of something related to numbers sometimes. Are you familiar with the Mandela Effect?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It's haunting me. Do any of them land with you.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah and I've heard them talked about a lot on podcasts too, the Shazam movie.

Melanie Avalon: Do you remember that movie?

Vanessa Spina: Yep, I remember. It was called Shazam and not Sinbad was in it. The other guy was in it.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's Sinbad.

Vanessa Spina: There was someone in it. And then when you look it up now, it's been like purged from our collective media members.

Melanie Avalon: You remember the movie?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: See? Mind blown. The one that got me most recently was the rearview mirrors saying, objects in mirror fill in the blank closer than they appear. And then what is in the blank?

Vanessa Spina: Maybe closer than they appear.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, that's what I thought. I thought it was objects and mirror may be closer than they appear. That's what my mom said, my sister and I polled my audience and hundreds of people answered and half said it was that, but it's not. It's objects in mirror are closer than they appear. I went and looked at all the cars in the parking lot and that's what they say.

Vanessa Spina: I remember it from-- there was, this in Jurassic Park. There's a shot in the movie where he's looking in the rearview mirror and they zoom in on the text and it always stayed with me, but I thought that's what it was. It's funny how yeah, I wonder how much of that is that effect and how much of it is just like, I don't know, just not remembering it properly or your brain filling in a pattern or something.

Melanie Avalon: Some of the really weird ones, though, like the Fruit of the Loom, do you remember that one?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, if you go down the reddit rabbit holes, there are so many people that remember learning what a cornucopia is, because they looked at that picture. So, why would thousands or millions of people have stories about learning what a cornucopia is by looking at the Fruit of the Loom thing if there's no cornucopia? That doesn't make sense. I think it has to do with reality changing. I'm not kidding. Now I've lost half the audience but I'm serious.

Vanessa Spina: I think it has to do with that. I just don't stress about it too much. I'm like, “Whatever,” maybe we're in the matrix, there's a glitch in the matrix, I don't know I just can't focus on it too much or I won't get anything done.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. Chick-fil-A. I definitely spelled that “Chic” and my mom said she worked at Chick-fil-A in college and even she thought it was something different.

Vanessa Spina: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: So, I don't know listeners, I want to do a podcast on this. I got to find some Mandela effects, like soap person.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you totally should explore it.

Melanie Avalon: I could talk about this for hours. So, yeah, I'm going to lose people here. I do think it might be either parallel realities interacting or some blip or blackhole. I think it could be something with reality.

Vanessa Spina: There're so many possibilities, if this is a simulation or not, or what's going on, but I spend so much time wondering these deep questions, these existential questions, and then I'm like, “Well, we're never really [laughs] going to know, so I may as well just get on with my life.”

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Vanessa Spina: There's only so much speculating you can do until you realize, “Well, you're never going to know either way anyway.”

Melanie Avalon: I just like thinking about it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, for sure.

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't bother me, but when people like-- you think there could be something going on, but you're like, “It's fine.” Some people are like, “Oh, that's not happening.” I mean, it might not be happening, but I don't know. I like thinking about it. I like pondering the possibilities of reality.

Vanessa Spina: Same. Yeah, same. I think there're these questions that haunt you and they kind of come up bubble up every day or every week, and you're like, “Yes. Still don't know the answer.” [laughs] But it is fun to just contemplate what could be. I think also, we've both talked about how we love Star Trek and just sci-fi stuff, and so definitely there's a lot to ponder of what all those infinite possibilities and what could be.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually related to that, I think it's interesting that we just accept reality the way it is. But there are, “How do I say this?” We really judge some concepts of reality as, “Oh, that could never happen.” But then some things we just accept. The idea that red light and near-infrared light, like this invisible stuff, or near-infrared, it's invisible and it is energy and it goes into our body from this device and does things. But we don't think that's weird. But if that didn't exist, we'd be like, “Oh, that's weird.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's true.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, on that note, is there anything new in your world in this reality right now?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I've been so excited because some of you who are listening may know that I created a tone device, which is a breath ketone analyzer. It's kind of a huge passion of mine because I wanted to find a way that people could get biofeedback on their level of fat burning or how deeply they are in ketosis, especially if we're doing intermittent fasting or extended fasting just to get some feedback. That’s like, “What you're doing is augmenting your level of ketosis or deepening your level of fat burning.” I love biofeedback. I'm sure many of you listeners love biofeedback. It's like if you're running on a treadmill or exercise machine, you want to have the feedback of how long you've been on it and how many calories you're burning and your heart rate and all that just adds to the experience. So, I love data. The first generation of the tone has been amazing.

But I really wanted to create the second generation. I've been working on it for almost two years, about a year and a half of iterations of new devices. It's such a long process because every time you kind of go back to the drawing board with notes and then you test the new version and then you recalibrate something. So, we've changed a number of things. But the thing that I wanted to do with it based on feedback from people who are using the tone and love it, is that a lot of us who are doing daily intermittent fasting, we're not getting into 2.0 to 4 super deep ketoses. It's more like you could fast from say, dinner the night before to dinner the next day, a 24-hour fast, you will get into ketosis for sure. But the first generation was really really accurate, the more deeply you were in ketosis, because you get more ketones.

So, the level of acetone would be higher and therefore easier to measure. With breath it's very difficult because with the blood you're measuring millimolar units, which is like in the units of 1000. When you're measuring breath acetone, it's these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles in parts per million. So, it's much easier to measure it when the concentration is higher. Anyway, we have a new airway mold, we have a new program, we have all these new features, and the device is so sensitive, it's amazing. I've been testing the latest version of it, which is the final version, I've decided, because it's working so well, it's performing so well, and it's making me so excited because it's picking up ketones of 0.1, 0.2. 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 really small ketones. But some of us in a day will get to say, if I fast from dinner to dinner, I usually get to 0.8 to 1 millimolar.

And with the new second generation tone, you can see that. So, you can see if you test in the morning, you test in the early afternoon, you test before dinner, you can see your ketones going up. With the tone, you invest in one device. You don't have to buy all of those expensive wasteful test strips. You don't have to puncture your skin. You don't have to do any of the rigmarole that goes along with that. You can just test an unlimited amount of times and you just have one device. I always wanted to create something cost effective that would give people that biofeedback. I always found blood testing for ketosis was expensive and cost prohibitive. Most people at the most are going to test their ketones once a day, because if it's a dollar or 2 per strip and the costs have come down a little bit, they used to be even $4 or $5, they've definitely come down.

But this is just so much more convenient. If you're wanting to test your blood and you're at someone's house, you're at a restaurant, you have to go in the bathroom, you're not going to pull out your ketone strips in front of other people, your friends or family or whatever. But with the tone, you can just breathe into it. So, you can do it anywhere. [laughs] It's really cool. So, I'm super super excited for the second generation, and I think it'll be out in a couple of months from now. It just gives me goosebumps. It gets me so excited because the accuracy is so high and it's just very difficult to achieve this. But we're finally there and I couldn't be more excited [chuckles] about it. It's really really fun to use and just so valuable. Especially for people like us who do time-restricted eating and then if you do a longer fast, like a 36 hours or 72 hours, four or five-day fast, you also get that feedback, but just in the intraday fasting, like a lot of us do in this community, it can be a valuable tool for that. So, yeah, super super excited.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. Okay, I can't wait till you're on my other show because I feel like I'm going to ask you so many questions. Get ready. [laughs] So, when you're developing this technology, who are you working with to develop it?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I have a factory and I have an institute that studies acetone, so it's a collaboration between all of us together, because there's engineering that goes into the program and the program is directing the sensor. So, there's the technology inside the device, the sensor and the programming that goes with it, and then there's the actual mold, which we managed to change. But one of the big challenges with the first version is it only has a 20 second warmup. So, in 20 seconds, the device has to warmup, calibrate, and warmup the sensor. It's a big challenge and we really had to push it and just invest a lot in the new devices to make them able to warmup and do all of that in just 20 seconds because it's quite fast. Usually, you'll see at least 60 seconds I think, the closest other device in terms of the warmup and calibration, unless there's something new out there that I don't know about, but it's a very fast calibration.

So, yeah, it takes a lot of different components and just the trial and error. It is just so time consuming because I can't tell you how many devices I would test. I'd be like, “No, it was working until this and then it's not as accurate here.” So, figuring out, well, what's the next step? Do we do a new airway? Do we do a new sensor? Do we do-- it's just a lot of coordination of different things. It's the most fun thing [laughs] I've ever worked on by far. So, it's definitely a joy, even though it's very time consuming.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. It's just going to be so helpful for people. Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's going to be very motivational for people. That's really what I want for someone who's either been doing fasting for a long time or they're just starting out and they're blowing into it and seeing every few hours the numbers are going up. That's super motivational. I think people would be able to do that with the blood, but it's just so expensive and painful to test like three or four times a day. So, this, I think, can be a motivational tool for people where they're like, “Oh, maybe I'll do another hour and see how high my ketones go” or just to motivate people to practice time-restricted eating. Then my favorite part about it is trying different patterns and trying different things. I was telling you when one of my listeners did the ice bath and their ketones doubled the next day, and then I did it too and mine doubled.

So, there's really interesting dynamics, because sometimes you can have really high blood ketones and then do a workout and then you test again and they've dropped to like zero. But if you test your breath, they don't go down because you are using those ketones, a high uptake of them that you won't see them anymore in your blood, but you'll still see them in the breath. So, it's a really cool tool I think that will also be motivational for people and that's a lot of feedback that I get is it helps keep me on track. That's how I discovered that, “Oh, breakfast and dinner really work well for me, especially when I'm traveling or staying at a resort or something.” And I don't want to go off the rails, but I could see that having a super early breakfast and fasting until dinner is 9, 10 hours. That got me really high ketones, too. Doing a fasted workout really drives my breath ketones up, whereas on the blood you wouldn't see it as much. So, I think it's definitely a great tool for experimenting and trying all kinds of different things, higher protein, lower protein, higher carb, lower carb. Well, you're not really supposed to use carbs with, it [laughs] no because carbs produce a lot of CO2 and also breath gases when people eat carbs and then the gut bacteria ferment the carbs, we produce methane and CO2 and all kinds of breath gases that really mess with the sensor.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, wait that's interesting. Like me, I eat a really high-carb diet at night.

Vanessa Spina: So, you could use it in the morning when you wake up and all throughout the day until right before you have your first meal. But you don't want to do it after you eat because then the numbers will be conflated with the breath gases like the Co2 and the methane. You never want to use it after brushing your teeth or having alcohol. So, if you have wine, you'll see the numbers will go through the roof because the alcohol has a similar molecular shape to acetone, ethanol does. So yeah, there're a few things that you can't do with, but people who do high carb and do time-restricted eating or intermittent fasting can use the tone as long as you're only testing in the fasted state or at least say you have breakfast and lunch. Then you could wait four or five hours and you could test when you go back in the fasted state.

But that's why it's a tool that people can use. But if you are doing carbs above 20 g, then not after you eat. Because then, yeah, I had one person who was blowing like these crazy numbers and I was like, “What are you eating?” And she's like, “I'm eating low carb with all this cabbage.” I looked it up and there's this sugar in cabbage and some vegetables called-

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what it is?

Vanessa Spina: raffinose.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I think I've heard of that, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And it makes you blow like crazy amounts high, what the tone thinks is acetone. So, it would blow 60, 70. So, some carbs just have certain sugars in them or it's just the fermentation process in the gut that's causing that or it's the CO2, because that's what-- I think there's a lumen. It's mostly measuring the CO2 on the breath. That's because carbs produce the most CO2, whereas fat doesn't.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, I've seen anecdotally I don't remember who was talking about it. At some point, I saw something about somebody getting pulled over and testing positive on breath analyzers for alcohol when it was really being in ketosis.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's totally happened to people. But yeah, if you do a blood alcohol test, you'll be fine. You can prove it. But if you blow into a breath alcohol meter and you're in deep ketosis, it'll set it off for sure.

Melanie Avalon: It's also interesting. I remember it was, I think when Dom D'Agostino was on Peter Attia or something. And that's when I first learned what you mentioned earlier about how the breath acetone-- Does it always or typically comes from burned fat?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it comes directly from your fat. So, your body, when it goes into ketosis, it creates ketones, as you know, in the liver, and it creates beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which are interchangeable forms, but one spontaneously will turn into the other depending on if it's needed. Because BHB is more the storage form as you know, acetoacetate is more the ready to use form. So, it can interconvert between those two forms. But as it interconverts and it turns into acetoacetate, about 15% to 20% of that ketone turns into acetone. It's small enough that it'll diffuse through the airways. So, it's really amazing because like I was saying, if you had high ketones and then you did a workout and then your body used those ketones and your muscles used those ketones and your brain used those ketones, then when you test, you're not going to see much left over in the blood, but you're always going to have that proxy and those molecules of acetone are coming from your fat. It's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite quotes of Dom's. I actually have a reel on my Instagram of him just saying that, “Like the carbons--”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he's like, “the carbons that you're measuring on the breath acetone are coming directly from your fat.” [laughs] And he's like, “You're at your highest rate of fat burning, essentially when you're in ketosis.” So, yeah, I think it's just such a cool thing to be able to breathe your fat and measure it.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. I have three thoughts. One's just a really quick tangent. Somebody commented something on my Instagram the other day, and it is haunting me, haunting me, relates to Dom. They said they found me through Dom's podcast, which I'm like, “Did he mention us or me on his show?”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, maybe he did.

Melanie Avalon: So, I commented back. I was like, “Oh, when Dom was on my podcast?”, but the person never answered. But I don't think they would mean that because how would they find--? Well, they could have,

Vanessa Spina: But yeah, he launched a new podcast, so he probably mentioned you or something.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to go listen to every episode, [laughs] I need to find it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you're like, “DMing him, like, “Hey, did you talk about me?” [laughs] Did you mention me?”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I tagged him in the comment when I commented back, but yeah, the comment actually wasn't very supportive. But that's fine, [laughs] turn that ship around.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Now I want to know what it was.

Melanie Avalon: He said, “I was too skinny.”

Vanessa Spina: Oh, and they also found you through Dom's podcast.

Melanie Avalon: They found me through Dom's podcast, but I'm too skinny. [laughs] Thanks for seeking me out and telling me that. So, the things we deal with, I would love to try it because I wonder if I get into ketosis at all. I don't know if I do.

Vanessa Spina: You're one of the first people I'm sending it to. [laughs] I've been waiting to send it to you for so long, and I knew for-- I don't know, a year and a half ago. I was like, “I'm going to send you the second generation when it's out,” because I knew that it would be more practical for the intraday use for you, because I know you were not doing strict keto. If you were, then you could use it anytime, but yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was one of our first conversations way back in the day.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, probably.

Melanie Avalon: You were like, “I want to send it to you”, but I want to wait for the next one. Yeah, this has been a long time coming. This is exciting. I really do wonder though. I think that'll be really interesting to share with listeners because as listeners know, I eat pounds and pounds of fruit every night.

Vanessa Spina: So, what's your morning blood glucose? I'm just curious.

Melanie Avalon: It's usually, I always do get a dawn effect, but typically what I've seen on the CGM when I wake up, depending on when I look at the CGM and the dawn effect and everything, the dawn effect will actually make it go to like 115 or something for a spike and then it'll be 90s and then it goes down all day, 80s. After I do cryo, then it really starts going down in the evening-- So, when I really feel like I'm in my zone fasting, it's usually in the 80s. It used to be in the 70s, but now it's usually in the 80s and then when I eat especially, I noticed a huge difference when I started taking my berberine. Like I said, I was not expecting it to have that profound of a difference. But now when I eat, even with my meal, that will have probably 150 or 200 g of carbs from fruit, maybe it doesn't usually go above 120 and then it comes back down and then it keeps going down. The worst blood sugar regulation is really in the morning period up until afternoon.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because you wear CGM, so you can tell that it is the dawn effect. It's not like something else because mine was in the 80s for the longest time and then I just close my eating window. I know it doesn't apply to you because you eat late, but I close my eating window like around 7, 7:30 and now it's in the 70s. Sometimes it's in the 70s, low 70s every single day for months now. That was the main thing.

Melanie Avalon: So, flatline 70s.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's always low 70s. But I don't know if I have a dawn effect, I have to put one of those NutriSense CGMs on. I literally can't wait to postpartum to put it on because that's when it's going to be super helpful for me. Obviously, not the few weeks right after I give birth, but postpartum when I'm ready to focus on my metabolic health again and focus on my fitness and all that. It's going to be such an amazing tool and I think could be such an amazing tool for anyone who wants to focus on their fitness because I'm staying as fit as I can while I'm pregnant. But I think postpartum it could be a really good tool for that when you're sort of getting back on track with things.

Melanie Avalon: I truly think if everybody on the planet did just one round for two weeks, I think it would have a profound effect on people's life choices.

Vanessa Spina: I remember listening to-- you probably heard this episode with Dr. Peter Attia, maybe it was a couple years ago and he was experimenting with one and he was just talking about all the things that he was like, “I can't believe this did it to me and this spiked my blood sugar and this--.” I was like, “Well, duh, that did.” But there're always things that affect people differently. They've done studies where they'll show one person's response to banana is crazy and another person's is like nothing. So, those are things I want to learn because I'm like, “Hey, if I can have of an unripe green banana, [laughs] I would love that if it doesn't really affect my blood sugar.” There are so many things you can learn and then there's always going to be things that surprise you where you're like, “I never would have thought that that was doing it,” but it was some ingredient in your almond milk or something that you just don't know, is there? Yeah, it's such an incredible tool.

Melanie Avalon: I love seeing how I react to alcohol and wine. That's always really interesting. I love seeing how I react to like if I have either in the moment with the alcohol and wine or drinking more earlier on a night I go out, how that affects it later. I did have a night, the other night when I was wearing it, where I did just eat all meat and it was a flatline. I was like, “Oh, that is interesting.” I was like, “Maybe I should do like a round of carnivore and just have flatlines all the time for a little bit,” just for fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's when I was wearing it last time and it was so funny because it was a flatline. I was like, “This is really not giving me useful information right now, because it was always 80 something. It was always 82, 83, 84, 85.” It's amazing, though, because you learn that protein really is broken down over four or 5 hours, and that's one of the reasons it's so amazing for you. It does improve your blood glucose and it does improve your insulin and you can see it in real time. But, yeah, when I did it, I was carnivore and I was like, “Going to get any action here? What's going on?” [laughs] Like I'm always the same number. I remember there were a couple of people, Dr. Jaime Seeman, she was laughing about my post. I said, “It was just like a flatline.” So, yeah, it was not that exciting. But I can only imagine what-- some people's look if they're doing high carb or processed high carb all throughout the day or eating, starting off the day with some cereal and orange juice. [laughs] You could learn so much.

Melanie Avalon: Two things. One, some people I'd be curious, I bet some people on carnivore who are also really-- I could see how some people, either on higher protein carnivore or given their exercise and stress, I'd be curious, they might see spikes. That would be interesting totally.

Vanessa Spina: Well, we got a question on I did an interview with Dr. Don Layman. He's one of the most incredible protein scientists in the world and one of my favorite guests.

Melanie Avalon: What did he discover? He discovered--

Vanessa Spina: He discovered the leucine threshold.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: He's really incredible. And a lot of other things. Like, he mentored Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. They came up with the muscle centric fitness concept, but his lab came up with so many different things, the 30 g of protein at a meal concept.

Melanie Avalon: That's him.

Vanessa Spina: That's all him, so many things came out of his lab. It's super interesting and he believes one of my favorite things is that thermic effect of protein, that extra calorie burn we get from eating protein is because of the ATP being used for muscle-protein synthesis. He's just such an incredible scientist. Yeah. So, one of our listeners wrote in and she said that her husband was getting really crazy blood glucose spikes on carnivore and they're using a CGM to monitor. She's like, “He doesn't eat a single carb. Why is his blood sugar going through the roof?” Dr. Layman was just, “I don't know how to answer this and I honestly don't know.” I was like, “It makes me think of Dr. Ted Naiman.” He always says like, “Fat can also cause diabetes, too much fat.” What if it's the fat? What if he's eating really fatty cuts of meat, just only ribeyes and super high fat that that's what's causing it. Neither of us knew, but I was like, it'd be interesting, right? if it's the fat that could do it because your body is at some kind of energy toxicity and then it's converting all the protein into glucose and then creating this weird after effect that could give you diabetes. I don't know. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's what the vegan community is really big on, how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors on our cells negatively.

Vanessa Spina: But it's so weird because we make saturated fat.

Melanie Avalon: We make it. Yes, but I guess when we're inundated in it or if we take in too much that's because I'm prepping right now. I think I said to interview Dr. Kahn, Dr. Joel Kahn-

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's right, that’s right.

Melanie Avalon: -on Friday. I'm relistening to his interview on Rogan with Chris Kresser. So, he has a chapter or a section in there. So, I was just reading about it and he talks about how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors and can make you insulin resistance, which I can completely see in the context of a carb diet, but in the context of no carbs. I guess what you just said, if your liver is producing more glucose from protein and then the fat is creating that with the receptors, I guess you could get in a state. I don't know I am not-- This is not my forte.

Vanessa Spina: I really want to know from her if-- and I'm going to follow up with her because she asked the question in our Facebook group for my podcast. I really want to follow up and see what if he did a lean protein carnivore? I wonder if it would change things, because people always assume it's the high protein, but it could be the high protein plus the high fat. And it's just so interesting because Dr. Layman was also saying there're so many studies done where the results that they get are just because people are just eating too many calories in general, too much carb, too much fat. Then they're blaming the protein levels, whereas the protein is like helping improve your blood sugar and insulin. It's the other stuff. It's the fuel macros or so.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, like I said, I’m really excited to interview Dr. Kahn because I think I'm such a good example of-- I know I'm N of 1, but I eat super super high protein and animal protein, very high. I mean, higher than most people definitely in my category and then really really high fruit. I don't have these blood sugar issues and my cholesterol is like plummeting. So, it just makes you question things [giggles].

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm definitely going to listen to that one.

Melanie Avalon: I am excited. Well, and for listeners, I don't think we even said what a CGM is, but if they're not familiar it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a sensor that you put onto your arm. It is painless to apply I promise and then it monitors your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid continuously for two weeks. We love NutriSense. You can get $30 off at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast. So nutrisense.co/ifpodcast, the coupon code is IFPODCAST, that will get you $30 off. You do save money if you get a subscription. So, if you think you're going to be doing it more long term, we definitely recommend that route, otherwise do the two weeks. You also get a free month of nutritionist support, so you can actually chat with somebody in the app and they'll help you make sense of all the data. So, it's super cool. How can people learn more about your new Tone device?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you for asking. I actually am doing a launch for it with a very special launch discount. And you can go tonedevice.com and sign up for the list. And you'll receive that launch discount when they are out. And you'll also find out when they're available to order. But yeah, it's going to be in a couple of months, so it's coming soon. I'm very excited.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. I imagine how many molds have you made? They're very pricey, aren't they?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and it's so funny because I literally have them. I'm in my office right now and there're Tone devices everywhere in our house. Almost every drawer you open, there's a Tone device. It's like Easter. It's like Easter eggs. [laughs] I'm like, “How is there one in this sock drawer? There's one in here, there's one in Luca's drawer. They just pop out everywhere and I don't know what to do with them. I label them which version they are and stuff. I almost just want to keep them all, put them in a glass case or something. [laughs] They are coming out of our ears here. There's just so many. But yeah, it's worth it because I think the new version is going to be just so cool. And that's the most fun part for me. The last note I want to say on this is, it's the most fun part for me is when people actually get them and they're using them and they're tagging me in their stories and they're like, “Look at my ketones today,” and I did a fasted workout and check this out.

And as a community, I get to just interact so much with everyone. And it's the part I'm the most excited about. I know I'm sure you feel that way too when you get feedback from someone who's saying, “The berberine is like a game changer or whatever, it just makes your whole month.” It just makes you so happy. You're like, “This is why I enjoy doing this stuff.” It affects people in ways that make them happy. And when they love the stuff that you create, it just makes you feel like all warm and fuzzy inside. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's so fulfilling. I do the same thing with the supplement bottles. I had a moment the other day because I've embraced this new mantra and I say it in my head every night, throw away something every day. So, throw away every day. I'm trying to very slowly just cleanse my physical space, get rid of stuff. The thing I threw away the other day was I had the first glass bottle from the supplement line, but it wasn't even labeled. It's literally just a glass bottle. And I was like, “This has just got to go. I do not need this. I don't need to keep this,” but I want to keep all the bottles and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's special to keep it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I threw it away, but [laughs] I have the ones with the labels still.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, got to put them in a glass case.

Melanie Avalon: It was when Scott sent me just a glass bottle that we're going to use for the glass bottles, it was that glass bottle. But I was like, “I don't actually need this on my shelf.”

Vanessa Spina: Right? Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm just going to throw one really quick link since we're talking about all the things. I am launching my EMF blocking product line. So, more information on that. We're starting with air tubes. Friends, please don't wear Bluetooth AirPods. I just shudder, I shudder, I shudder. But in any case, you can get more information for the launch special at melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist. So melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist, get on that for sure. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I'm going to read two questions because they sort of go together and these are both from Facebook. So, the first one is from Nikki. She says, “I like to do a couple 24-hour fasts per week. I usually break these fasts around dinner. The goal of the fasting is fat loss, but I do still want to preserve lean muscle. On the other days, I typically get around 115 to 130 g of protein. Should I make sure I get 100 plus grams of protein on my two fasting days even though I have an eating window of two to three hours on those days? It's difficult to get that much in a short window. And I'm not sure how beneficial it is in one sitting. Could or should I make up for it by increasing my protein intake on the other days.” Then related to that is from Nancy and she said, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when I typically fast 20:4?” So, she's doing something sort of similar. They're both struggling to get all the protein. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I love both these questions. For me, I need to answer them separately because it's two different things, but they're kind of fun, especially to Nancy's creative ways to get the protein in, I'm all about that. So, in terms of Nikki's question, it's such a great question. So, the goal is fat loss, but wanting to make sure you preserve your lean muscle, which is key for your metabolism and maintaining as much lean body mass as possible for your body recomp. I wouldn't be concerned about only getting-- you're saying on the other days that you're getting 115 to 130 g. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting over 100 g of protein on your two fasting days. I don't think it's that necessary. I think you just focus on getting it on your eating days to get that 115 to 130. It's definitely like that 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, I think is great when you're doing body recomposition. But if you are also doing fat loss and you're practicing fasting, that's how you're also ramping up the fat loss is through that caloric control. So, I don't think that you need as much. If you're fasting, you're probably getting into some light ketosis. Ketones have a muscle-sparing effect, so I wouldn't worry about having to hit 100 g of protein each day. That might just make you uncomfortable trying to do it with less meals. So, that's my opinion on the first one. As far as Nancy's, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when you are fasting 20:4.” So, you're doing one meal a day.

So, I have two different diverging thoughts on this. The first is, do you necessarily need to get 120 g of protein? I would question that first, and I don't have all the information on why you're consuming that much and what your goals are. But say you're doing 120 g of protein because you're targeting around 1 g of protein per pound of body weight or ideal body weight, and you want to get the optimal amount of protein in to preserve your lean muscle mass while doing body recomposition. I would say target as much protein as possible till you're getting those satiety effects. You need at least 30 g of protein per meal. I don't know if you are able to, but if you're able to have two meals in that 4-hour eating window, if you're having, say, either a dinner and then waiting a couple of hours and having a protein shake, you can definitely fit in a couple of meals, and you can definitely get at least 30 g of protein at each of those meals, which will mean you'll get at least 3 g of leucine, as long as you're doing high quality protein.

If you're doing plant-based protein, you probably need a little bit more 35 g as a target but if you're getting at least 3 g of leucine at two meals in your eating window, then you're going to be more than fine in terms of preserving your lean mass and your muscle. I know that having a 4-hour eating window doesn't give you that many meal opportunities, but I would definitely try to break it up in that 4 hours so you have at least two opportunities where you are triggering muscle protein synthesis as opposed to just one meal where you're having like 100 to 120 g of protein. Now the other thing is, I myself tend to do a similar eating window. I change it up. Sometimes, I'm doing breakfast early early in the day. I was just doing that for the past week. Then I'll have a dinner about nine to 10 hours later.

So, I go back in the fasted state. But I have come up with so many different creative ways to get in as much protein as possible. So, I have turned different aspects of the meal into protein opportunities. So, the main proteins that I have at my meal, whether that's chicken or beef or fish. But then, I use nonfat yogurt to make a lot of sauces. So, there're so many amazing sauces you can make with yogurt. You can make tzatziki if you're doing kebabs or if you're doing a yogurt marinade. I make salad dressings with it that I'll have with my protein and with some salad. So, like honey mustard is super easy to make with some yogurt in there. Sometimes, I'll make like a tuna salad and I'll use high protein yogurt, which is like lower fat yogurt instead of mayo. And I also do a couple of other things. I make protein bread. So, I make this three to four times a week and I make a couple of loaves of protein bread. It's a bread, you may have heard of.

Melanie Avalon: It is a cloud bread?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, so it's often called cloud bread. The version that I make is Maria Emmerich's recipe and its liquid egg whites and powdered egg whites blended together in a stand mixer and then you put it in the oven for about 30 to 40 minutes and it's delicious. It's the protein wonder bread. I use it in so many different meals. I make sandwiches with it. Sometimes, I'll do like a tortilla soup or like tomato soup and I'll use the bread to dip in it. I'll make protein churros with it with sweetened yogurt. There're just so many amazing things that you can do with it.

Of course, toast with eggs and all that or just for breakfast, I'll have the protein bread and then cream cheese with lox, tomatoes, and capers. It's a lox bagel. There're just so many things that you can do with it and so that's another way that you're getting more protein in. Then, there's the sweet dessert options. You can make a protein shake using-- I like to use whey protein or egg protein and I usually do that either a couple of hours after my dinner or sometimes it's like closer to dinner if I haven't had as much protein with the dinner. But I do almond milk, frozen berries, ice, and whey protein and blend it up and tastes absolutely amazing. So, I'm hitting the protein at every step of the way and every aspect of the meal has some protein in it.

And sometimes, I think at first when you're starting to prioritize protein more, it seems overwhelming. Like, “How can I get this many grams of protein in one day?” But when you start using these different yogurts, different protein bread, different things to incorporate into the meal, it seamlessly becomes a lifestyle over time. Then you're like, “Gosh, my meals are just so incredibly satiating, so satisfying.” The biggest issue I have is I get so full, it's hard for me to sometimes have another meal because every component of my meal is protein related. So, the first part of the answer was like, do you necessarily need to get 120 g? But if you want to, there're a lot of creative ways and even not 120 g, hitting around 100, you can easily do it if you're getting a bit creative. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That was so helpful. Thank you so much. That was so impressive. That was like, so many great suggestions because I eat the same thing every single night, so I'm not much help. So, [laughs] it's really helpful to hear all of these options. Thank you. I'm thanking you from the listeners. Thank you. Some of the thoughts I had, so really interesting. I was really really curious what you're going to say about the 100 g of protein, especially because I'm reading Dr. Gabrielle Lyon's book right now and she's very adamant about 100 g every day. I'm like, “Oh, this seems very important.” So, you diverge a little bit in your thinking on that.

Vanessa Spina: Well, because if you're not doing time-restricted eating, you're not getting into any light ketosis. But I know our listeners are mostly practicing intermittent fasting or fasting. As Nikki was saying, “She's doing fasting.” So, because she's doing fasting of 24 hours twice a week, she's definitely getting into ketosis. So, she doesn't have to worry about getting that same amount of protein on those days because the ketones are providing that muscle protective aspect. But if she wasn't fasting and you are trying to optimize muscle growth, muscle gains, you want to get as many opportunities in the day to trigger muscle protein synthesis. And for most people, that's three meals a day, 30 g at each meal. I know that's what Gabrielle recommends and that's like 90 g to 100 g of protein a day. And that's a great target I think for the average person who tends to eat three square meals, but for people who do fasting, it's a little bit different. Especially with two 24 hours fasts, you're definitely getting into ketosis and those ketones will help protect your muscle.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to talk to her about it when I interview her, because she didn't-- I don't think because I'm almost done with the book and I don't think she has said anywhere I could be wrong. I don't think she said anywhere that fasting would indicate that maybe you could have less protein. Interestingly, she does say there are studies on exercise and maybe creating a muscle preserving effect. So, it's what you just said, but it's on the exercise front.

Vanessa Spina: Right, right. Yeah, because you're sending a signal with resistance training to preserve.

Melanie Avalon: Because I read that and I was like, “Oh, that's kind of like with fasting,” where we're upregulating human growth hormone and we're like creating this state where the muscles are basically primed. That's what she said. It was something about how-- I'd have to find the exact quote, but it was something about how when the muscles are really primed from exercise, then they can soak up those amino acids really well. I'm using very casual terminology, but basically you might not need quite as much because it's so efficient at grabbing what's there. And I feel that's a similar situation that's created from fasting.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. For people who are over the age of 40 and really concerned about keeping as much of that lean mass as possible, I definitely recommend doing that kind of exercise-- resistance training when you're fasting, because you want to send that signal, we need these muscles, we need to hold on to them and not catabolize them. And then when you break your fast, of course, make sure that meal has all the protein in it. But I think that we are really integrating a lot of these concepts. Well, I can see from your community, this community, my community, and others, that people are really getting this information, putting it into practice, noticing huge amelioration or difference in their body composition. It's relatively recent that we've really started talking about protein, really focusing in on it. Unless you've been in the bodybuilding world for years, then you probably know some of these concepts a little bit more.

But I really feel like this information has kind of been in that space, like the physique competitors, the bodybuilders or the science labs, and now it's reaching so many people. Thanks to advocates like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I just love getting questions like this because it's like, yes, we know how much protein to get, and we know how important it is, and we just want to know the best way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I love it so much. My suggestion that I'll add to your-- because you gave so many incredible suggestions about what to add. So, the thing I'll give as a piece of advice is maybe focusing on what not to have. What I mean by that is really leading with protein rather than having a super high fat, high protein meal because that might really fill you up. So, for me, when I eat, and again, I eat very similarly, it's always just really really high amounts of animal protein, like fish, chicken, steak, and I eat a lot of cucumbers and fruit. So, I'm not prescribing that because I know it's super weird and it's like what I love. I basically lead with protein. So, my hunger is being initially addressed with protein rather than with fat per se. Even with the carbs, I eat those as like my dessert. So maybe not letting focusing on the protein and not adding a lot that might prematurely increase your satiety. That would be my suggestion.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's great. I think that's what Ori Hofmekler always says to you right.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we have to try to get him back on this show. We should have him and Dom and all the people.

Vanessa Spina: Both of those would be so much [unintelligible 00:53:12]. But Ori would be like a dream.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'm going to reach out to Ori. I'm writing that down right now. Ori, O-R-I and I have the thing I can use as the moment. Remember how I said his nephew is my sister's--

Vanessa Spina: Totally. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: And what about protein powders? So, when people have your upcoming protein powder coming out, how much protein will that add for them?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, what's amazing about it? Scott and I have talked a little bit about the formulation, but because we've optimized it based on the science of leucine and muscle protein synthesis, you only need one scoop, which is about 15 g of protein. But because we've added in the leucine, you'll still trigger muscle protein synthesis, but without having to take these giant scoops of protein, which, as you were just saying, with regards to fullness, can make people feel super full or bloated, if it's not a high-quality protein, if it's whey protein concentrate or different blends, whey protein isolate, moderate amount. I only take one small scoop and it's great because I can have that an hour or two after dinner and I'm still not going to bed, feeling super full. I would never even think of doing that if I was using a traditional protein powder where you have to have these mega scoops just be digesting that for so long. I don't think it would be comfortable to go to bed with a full stomach like that.

Melanie Avalon: I love going to bed with a full stomach.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, like overly full when you're just like--

Melanie Avalon: No, true.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: How can people get on the list so they don't miss your launch special for that?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, the other other Tone, toneprotein.com. You can sign up to get that launch discount and be the first to know when it's out. It's going to be the biggest discount ever offered on Tone Protein, and it'll be out in a couple of months, so you can stay tuned on it and just sign up with your name and email @toneprotein.com. But thank you for asking me.

Melanie Avalon: No, of course. That just made me think really quick. Speaking of the naming thing, because I have AvalonX supplements and with my EMF line, I was like, “Do I use the same name? What do I do?” It's like a whole thing, like a big decision. I'm keeping it. I basically have AvalonX supplements and then my AvalonX. I have AvalonX powered by MD Logic for the supplements and AvalonX powered by SYB for my EMF line. But it was a big moment decision. Did you have that moment decision of calling it the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: I felt like it just made sense from the beginning because Tone, I created it because ketones and wanting to get toned. And for me, the Tone Lux just made sense because it's like somehow related to the mitochondria. But Tone Protein was, like, I always wanted to call it that because you're getting toned and it all connects back to that. But I think it's great to have one consistent brand across different things. So, I'm glad you're keeping AvalonX. I think it's such a great name.

Melanie Avalon: Love it. Awesome. Well, this has been so fun. Great palindrome episode 333. For listeners If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there or you can ask in my Facebook group IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. So yeah, this has been super fun. Anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun and I'm super excited to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Aug 06

Episodes 329: Protein Supplementation, Leucine Needs, Animal Vs. Plant Sources, Optimized Intake, BCAAs & EAAs, Protein Myths, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 329 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood, Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 Packs of Bacon Free for a Year plus $20 off your first order!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 Packs Of Bacon Free For A Year Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Go To Toneprotein.Com To Get The all the news about Vanessa's New Protein Supplement With An Exclusive Pre-Launch Discount!

Listener Q&A: Jobeth - What’s the science on how much protein to eat at a typical meal?

Listener Q&A: Mary - if I eat a meal that has 50 grams of protein, will I only be utilizing 20 to 30 of those grams?

Listener Q&A: Niki - How much leucine does protein have in it per scoop?

Listener Q&A: Kelly - I have questions about protein and the correct amount for women in perimenopause.

Listener Q&A: Hanne - What’s better EEA or BCAA?

Listener Q&A: Denise - Whey protein powder…any knowledge and opinions to share?

Listener Q&A: Sandra - What is the cleanest protein powder to buy and best protein bar?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 329 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Vanessa Spina: All right. Well, hello everyone and welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Spina and on today's episode, we have a very special guest and that is Scott Emmens joining us from MD Logic. How are you doing today, Scott?

Scott Emmens: I'm doing great, Vanessa. It's a pleasure to be back on IF podcast with you.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited for today's episode because we're going to be answering listener Q&A, but specifically about protein supplementation. And I think it's something that so many people have questions too. I'm really excited specifically to get into some of the nuances around sort of processed food and all of that. There're just so many topics that I'm excited about. So, for listeners. Scott, you've probably heard him on the show before with Melanie because Scott is also Melanie's partner at MD Logic and Scott is the Chief Operating Officer and co-founder of MD Logic Health. And prior to that, he was an executive in the biotech and pharmaceutical industry for over 20 years, a bodybuilder, biohacker, certified personal trainer and health and wellness advocate. And Scott started MD Logic in 2021 after selling his former company, Olaregen Therapeutix, [laughs] and pursuit of a more natural approach to the maintenance of well-being and fitness. So, you are all probably very familiar with Scott and MD Logic if you've been listening to the podcast for a while. And today's episode we wanted to specifically talk about protein because myself and Scott are launching Tone Protein powered by MD Logic, which is a protein supplement. So, on today's episode, we're going to talk a little bit about the formulation behind it, why we wanted to create it, and also address some of your amazing questions. So, I am really excited. Did you take a look at the questions, Scott?

Scott Emmens: I did. I think these are some fantastic questions. I wonder if some of them were spurred by the episode you had on, I think it was two episodes ago with the study on protein fasting versus sort of just a straight fast. And these questions look--

Vanessa Spina: The protein pacing. Yeah. So, Dr. Paul Arciero.

Scott Emmens: That was a great episode. I thought he had a lot of really interesting things to say and I took a lot away from that. But I think these questions are fantastic.

Vanessa Spina: You know hosting the Optimal Protein podcast. I answer a lot of questions in this vein, but it's so much fun to get to do it on The Intermittent Fasting Podcast because we do focus so much on intermittent fasting and the importance of getting that protein in, in your eating window. Because it does become a little bit trickier when you don't have 12 or 14 or 16 or even 20 hours in a day to just graze or eat. When you're eating in a more condensed window, you want to make sure that you are hitting your protein target. It's just so critical for so many reasons, as this audience well knows. So, I just think it's such an important topic and there are so many questions around it. And specifically, I think also about the supplementation of protein, not just eating protein in the form of animal foods.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. Absolutely, I think there's a lot to learn about when do you take a protein shake, when do you eat animal foods or plant-based proteins as well? We'll get into that. But yeah, this is going to be, I think, a great episode to clarify a lot of the misnomers or old theories and the new up and coming science.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, exactly. I am so excited to get into the science of protein, protein supplementation and all of your questions specifically about protein. So, for listeners, before we jump into today's episode, if any of you are interested in learning more about Tone Protein, we are going to be offering a significant launch discount to listeners of this podcast members of this community, you can sign up at toneprotein.com and you will not only receive that launch discount, you will also be the first to know when Tone Protein is available to order. So just go toneprotein.com, sign up with your name and email address, and then you'll receive an email to confirm and make sure that you are added to the list. And you will receive that special launch discount and you will also be alerted as soon as Tone Protein is available to order. And we are going to be launching, we are hoping, by September, so it's not that far off. And I am just so excited for you all to try Tone Protein. We have so many amazing, delicious flavors coming, but it is also scientifically optimized to help you build the most amount of lean mass and muscle. And we are going to get into that very specifically in terms of the formulation on this episode because we have some questions about that, specifically. With that, shall we get started with our first question?

Scott Emmens: Sure.

Vanessa Spina: All right. Well, Joe Beth asks, "What is the science on how much protein to eat at a typical meal. Getting enough protein can be a problem7 for most. I read once, but I'm not sure if this is fact, but excess protein can turn into fat. We need this to be cleared up. LOL. Protein powder can be expensive of course, there is a difference in animal protein, plant protein and powdered protein utilization. Down the rabbit hole, Melanie Avalon and Vanessa Spina!" So, yes, I definitely agree with you that this needs to be cleared up in terms of the biochemical pathways of too much protein turning into fat. What are your thoughts just after hearing this question? What comes to mind? Because it's kind of a two parter.

Scott Emmens: Yes, I was going to say this is a multiple part question and I think a complex one. We could probably spend the whole show on this question and it's a [laughs] great one. So, let me start with what's the science behind how much protein to eat in a typical meal? Well, it's not too complicated, but essentially if you're eating both whole foods and a protein shake, it's more likely that you can get more absorption from a larger single bolus. If you are taking all of your protein, like, let's say you're trying to get 50 grams or even 35 grams out of just a shake, the research that I've done suggests that you're not going to optimize that protein and you could potentially be oxidizing some of that protein. Now, whether or not it's turning to fat, we'll get to. But your body can only process so much at a certain pace, and when it's pure liquid form, you're going to be getting sort of a bolus dumped all at once.

Can your body actually take that in, synthesize it, utilize it, break down the amino acids, etc. So, what I've read is that if you eat a meal that has other macronutrients, a little bit of carb, a little bit of fat, like in your typical sort of standard protein diet. So, let's see a nice 4 ounce or 5-ounce slice of grass-fed organic beef along with a little bit of sweet potato and perhaps some additional fat, maybe in the form of a whole butter or something that's going to allow your body to digest it more slowly. So thus, it's going to reduce your insulin response and slow down the digestion process. And then if you cap that off with a protein shake, you're not going to get that bolus of just pure liquid, so you can get that extra protein with your meal.

Now, some folks find that challenging to do, particularly when you're looking at some of these protein shakes that are trying to give you 25 to 35 grams of protein in one serving. The other potential issue, but maybe unlikely, is can it cause kidney damage? And it seems like there's a lot of mixed science on that, but definitely it's not good for people that have--

Vanessa Spina: It's actually pretty clear these days.

Scott Emmens: That it's not.

Vanessa Spina: It's not for a healthy individual who has no kidney issues, it is even at excessive levels and excessive and beyond of what the average needs are, it will not harm the kidneys. It's only in the situation where someone has some kind of kidney issue and therefore has a compromised GFR, glomerular filtration rate, they can potentially have issues with overdoing the protein. But for a healthy individual, I have seen so much research now really debunking systematic reviews, everything showing that it is not harmful for anyone who is healthy. And in some cases, people actually need more protein than they think.

Scott Emmens: So that's exactly where I came down. It was very clear that if you have kidney disease, especially dialysis, excess protein can be damaging. But for healthy individuals, to your point, especially athletic healthy individuals, you're going to be fine regardless of that bolus. So that's where the research that I'm looking at now is coming up with.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I think in terms of Joe Beth's first parter of this three parter, in terms of asking what's the science on how much protein to eat at a typical meal? I would say it depends a little bit on your goals. But I'm going to assume that a lot of people listening to this podcast who are interested in optimizing their protein intake are wanting to do so with the goal of having an optimal body composition and at the same time healthy metabolic health. So, the optimal protein intake per meal for that means that there's going to be enough protein at that meal that you will get enough of specifically the amino acid leucine. The level of leucine will raise in your blood above a certain level. For a lot of people, it's around 3 to 4 grams. That will trigger what's known as the leucine threshold and once you go above that amount and that amount is detected in the blood, what happens is it initiates a cascade of muscle protein synthesis.

So, every day we have a certain level of muscle protein breakdown always occurring. And in order to just maintain the lean mass that we, we have to get enough muscle protein synthesis to keep that in balance. If you're wanting to grow muscle and put on more lean mass, you're probably going to need to have a balance slightly higher on the side of muscle protein synthesis than muscle protein breakdown. So, it depends a little bit on your goals. But I think most people listening to this podcast are wanting to optimize their body composition, their longevity, their health span, and therefore their metabolic health. And so, what that comes down to as well is your age in terms of the science. Because when you're young, as I like to say, you can just look at chicken breast and you'll pretty much put muscle on if you're in your 20s, you barely need to do anything and your body's just going to be synthesizing muscle all the time.

As you get older, though, it really changes. And if you get, I think, above 45 to 50, the rates of muscle protein breakdown go up and you need way more leucine. It's actually a shocking amount. Like someone in their 70s can need as much as double the amount of leucine. And that becomes difficult, it becomes challenging for people because eating that much protein at a meal can actually be challenging. And I think that's where I really see the role of, say, protein supplementation really shining, because you can get an edge and you can really support muscle protein synthesis without having to eat, like, 12 ounces or two pounds of chicken breast at a meal, [chuckles] which can be a lot. Just to achieve that 5 to 6 grams of leucine that you might need. Because to build muscle, you'll be utilizing all the amino acids. But it really is that specifically that branch chain amino acid leucine that needs to raise in the blood. And this can all be credited to Dr. Don Layman, who I'm a huge fan of. He spent most of his career as an amino acid scientist, actually just discovering this one fact about leucine. So, we owe a lot to him when it comes to understanding the science about what is optimal.

Now, just as a sort of neat and tidy takeaway, you can target around 30 grams at a meal, 30 to 40 grams of protein at a meal, say, three times a day, or a little bit more than that, twice a day, and you'll probably be able to hit that leucine threshold and initiate the process of muscle protein synthesis. So that's how I've come to understand the science on how much protein at a typical meal is critical. Now, that changes if you're doing time restricted eating or intermittent fasting and you have a shortened eating window. If you're only eating two meals a day or even one meal a day, it's going to look very different.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. And I think that's where both your comment on leucine and supplementing your meal with a protein shake can really make the difference, because you're going to be able to get much more protein if you're eating it and both having it within your drink versus just having a high protein meal. I know for myself, I'm 175 to 180 pounds in my fighting weight and according to my age, which will remain anonymous for the time being. And this calculator, if I'm "highly active," it's saying I need 212 grams of protein. And I know I'm not going to sit down in a single meal or even a 4-hour eating window and eat two and a half to three pounds of chicken breast and lean grass-fed beef. So, it's just kind of infeasible for me to do that. So that's where I think the protein, and more importantly, what is the composition of the protein, amino acids and leucine to your point being the critical one.

Vanessa Spina: That's so important when it comes down to selecting a really high-quality protein supplement, because there are, unfortunately, some kinds of protein supplements that are being marketed to people that are not really going to do the job. They're either not really complete proteins. Some of them are actually collagen masquerading as protein powders. There're a lot of proteins that really don't optimize for the amount of leucine. So, if you are going to supplement, you really want to make sure that you're doing it with a super high-quality kind and we will get into that a little bit because you talked about in your question Joe Beth, you asked about the difference in these different animal proteins. But let's talk about your next part of the question, which is about excess protein turning to fat and the pathway there. I can start there if that sounds good to you, Scott?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. Please, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: So, I do agree with you, this really does need to be cleared up. This is one of the most rare pathways that the body will probably ever undergo, is turning excess protein into fat. What is most likely to happen is once you have utilized all of the protein that you can at a meal, which can be around the range of 30 to 40 grams, the sort of "excess protein" that you've consumed, that is in addition to your needs, will likely be turned into glucose via the pathway of gluconeogenesis. And it's really not a bad thing. It's really not something to fear. It takes 4 to 5 hours after a meal just for your body to break down protein into amino acids. So, most people will see, like, if you're wearing a continuous glucose monitor, CGM, like the one that Melanie and I use from NutriSense, you'll definitely see that your blood glucose will stay pretty stable even if you've eaten a large bolus of protein.

Some people have a lot of misplaced fears about the insulin spike that can occur after consuming protein because we know that higher levels of insulin can cause the body to store fat. But in the case of protein, it's really not comparable. If your insulin spikes after eating a high carb meal, a super processed high carbohydrate meal, that is definitely going to lead to fat storage. But when insulin spikes after eating a high protein meal, it's to help you build muscle. So, it's really not something to fear and it's very extremely rare. I've looked at so much research on this that the protein that is consumed in excess of what you need will then be turned into glucose via gluconeogenesis, and then that glucose will then be turned into fat. It's just very rare protein is mostly biological material that we are using. Most of our bodies are protein. Like, we're basically protein and water. So, we need protein for not just building muscle, but even for hormones like the hormone insulin itself is a peptide or protein-based hormone. We need protein for virtually everything.

Our cells are little protein printers. They have little 3D printers in them that are printing proteins for us constantly. So, our requirement for protein is relatively high. Most people I find undereat protein, or even if they overshoot a little bit, it's better to overshoot slightly and have a little extra glucose that your body will actually store as glycogen in your muscle, likely maybe a little bit in your liver, than to undereat protein and not get enough. Because that's where people, I think, run into issues, is if you are eating protein at your meal, but every single time you eat, you're not eating enough protein to trigger muscle protein synthesis, you're not getting enough leucine. That's when it can all turn to glucose. And that's when I think people can run into issues with that pathway of potentially turning into fat. So, you have to hit that threshold, that minimum amount of leucine, to make sure that your body is triggering muscle protein synthesis. Whether you are an athlete, whether you do resistance training and workout or not, it's really important to hit that to make sure that protein actually does get mainly utilized to build muscle, to repair muscle, and for all the other processes that body needs.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. Vanessa, I almost just want to say ditto so many great things that you said. One I just want to hit a little bit, which is insulin is an anabolic hormone, not just for storing fat, but for storing and helping to create muscles to get the glycogen and the amino acids into the muscle. So, it's really one of your most powerful anabolic hormones, is insulin. In my bodybuilding days, when I was doing heavy lifting all the time and taking a lot of protein, we utilized that little bit of insulin spike with protein, post a workout to help with the muscle growth or anabolic effect of the protein. Where I think it turns into fat is when people are eating protein with a high carb meal, particularly if they're eating like, mashed potatoes out of a box or something, your glucose is going to spike at that point, and that's what's going to put on the fat. But if you're eating a high protein meal with relatively low carbs, your protein is not going to turn into fat, more than likely to your point, I think you nailed it.

It's really going to come down to the varying difference in how insulin works on proteins. And the other thing you hit on is every single cell in your body, every process, your cartilage, your ligaments, your skin, your muscle, it all requires protein. And you are in this continual stage of degrading protein. And if you're not telling your body, "Hey, we have enough protein." It thinks, "Well, maybe I need to eat protein and store fat because fat is the way your body survives and stored in starvation time." So, I completely agree that protein turning to fat is going to be exceptionally rare, if not almost impossible. But you'd have to eat an awful lot of protein in a single meal for it to turn into fat.

Vanessa Spina: You just made me think actually about the example of rabbit starvation, which you know, occurs when people-- I forget what the context was exactly, maybe they were early explorers.

Scott Emmens: If you're in the Arctic or a cold environment and you're eating just rabbit that doesn't have enough fat on it or other nutrients, and you will literally starve death if you eat nothing but rabbits.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And part of it is because of the high thermic effect of protein. So, you burn so many calories in breaking down protein. And if all you're eating is protein, even if you're eating tons of it, rabbit is very, very lean, which is where the term comes from. You also don't have enough micronutrients and B vitamins to really help you process and break down all of the protein. But people don't get fat. [chuckles] These explorers, for example, they didn't get fat just eating tons and tons of rabbit meat, which is super lean. They actually were starving because the body burns so many calories. You really boost your metabolic rate when you eat a lot of protein and there was zero energy coming in from it because it is such a lean meat. So, if excess protein turned to fat, they would have all ended up obese. [chuckles]

Scott Emmens: Correct. And I learned that watching Alone, which is one of my favorite TV shows, which is, for those you don’t know, a survival show. And Joe Beth, we did not mean to go down the rabbit hole in that sense.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Well, that's amazing callback. Finally, Joe Beth, you asked about the difference in animal protein, plant protein, and powdered protein utilization. Just to round out the question there in and the sort of last part of it, do you want to start with that one, Scott?

Scott Emmens: Yeah, sure. So, I think animal protein is probably your best source and there is a way that you can look up like what is a complete protein. And what do we mean by a complete protein? It means that it has all nine essential amino acids plus others in certain ratios and it has to meet those amino acid ratios to be considered a whole protein. Animal protein is the only, well, I should say animal based. So that means egg, milk, meat. Those are things that are going to give you a complete protein in various amino acid concentrations. And we'll talk a little bit more about that as we get more into leucine and other amino acids, but leucine being the critical factor. So, animal protein, I think, is probably one of your best sources if you can get that and eat enough of that. But I find even I can't do that in a 4 to 6 hour eating window is just too difficult. Plant proteins are, in my opinion, a valid way to get some additional protein, but it's usually not going to be complete unless you blend multiple plants. And then you have other issues, like lectins or how much powder are you having to scoop from that if it's a plant-based powder, in terms of plant-based protein, you'd have to eat an enormous amount of varying plants, beans, legumes in order to get the right amino acid ratio to get to a complete protein.

Honestly, there's no way I could survive on a plant protein diet in the lifestyle I want, in the muscle mass I want to maintain, and just to take a quick step back. Vanessa, there is so much literature on longevity and health span connected directly to your lean muscle mass as you age. So, I think that's something I really want to make sure the audience recognizes is if you look up what are the key factors that are going to determine your longevity and health span as you age, it's going to be muscle mass, lower body strength, grip strength, ironically enough, and bone in your skeletal system. And all of that requires protein. So, it's really important that you have significant lean muscle mass going into it. So, plant-based protein, well, I think should be a part of your overall healthy diet if you can tolerate that. But for me, it's just an inefficient way to get the protein I need into my body. And then in terms of the powders, you're going to utilize a great deal of powdered amino acid, depending on the kind of powder it is and depending on how much you're taking at once and depending upon what the amino acid ratio is in that protein. I don't know if you want me to go further into that or just leave it at that for now, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: Well, actually, our next question kind of segues into this, I think, a little bit of where you want to go with this. So, we'll jump into Mary's question. She says, "I recently read that you can only, "use a certain number of grams of protein at one meal." So, if I eat a meal that has 50 grams of protein, will I only be utilizing 20 to 30 of those grams? I figured out a way to make my protein shake 50 grams, but if I'm losing 20 grams, is it worth wasting a scoop of protein powder? I'm interested to see what you say."

Scott Emmens: I would not do 50 grams in a protein shake in one single serving only because your body's going to try to process that in that liquid form so quickly. That is when you can get into some potential oxidation of the protein. That is when you might get so much, you're just not digesting it properly, because liquid protein is going to go through your system much faster than, like you had mentioned earlier, 6 to 7 hours for-- 4 to 6 hours, like you said, for your animal-based proteins. Well, if it's a liquid-based protein, it's going to be digested much faster than that and I really think 50 is way too high in a single shake. That's my personal opinion. That's not based on any study that I've read, but in the overall cohort of protein synthesis, protein digestion, there are specific articles and clinical trials that look at or if you're taking just a liquid-based protein shake, like what that kind of peak is, it tends to peak out depending on who you are, etc., in terms of efficiency, around 25 grams for one single liquid shake. I think you're probably doing a disservice, and I would say probably a little bit of that extra scoop you're putting in is not going to beneficial. And again, it goes back to what is the amino acid breakdown of that protein and what type of protein is it.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I agree. And like you said, when you process food, you make it more easy for the body to digest and assimilate. So, it definitely speeds up that process of absorption in terms of the absorption rate, rather than if you're eating a large steak, you have to take a lot more time to break that down into individual amino acids versus when something is processed. And not all processing is bad, which is one of the sort of nuances I wanted to get into. Anytime you're cooking food, you are processing the food more. When we talk about processed foods being bad for you, it usually is with regards to hyperpalatable, ultra processed food, which is not really that much food anymore. A lot of times it's like food like product. Whereas when you are processing something like yogurt or cheese, you're processing it minimally in order to make it tangy, have some probiotics in it, give it some flavor.

It's a minimal amount of processing, but it is still processing. But that doesn't mean that cheese or yogurt are not still whole foods and very good for you. And with protein powder, what's great is that it is a little bit more processed than, say, grass-fed steak. But that is really helpful when you are wanting to get in all the protein that you need in the day more efficiently or just hit your leucine threshold target, or just not having that much time. Like, I love either sometimes replacing breakfast or one of my meals with a protein shake because it's just so quick and easy, it takes me 5 minutes to make. And yes, that does come with a little bit more rapid absorption which is why, precisely to your point, Scott, you don't want to overdo how much protein you're consuming. And this sort of takes me a little bit Tone Protein and what we wanted to create here, because a lot of times I actually recommend that people sort of overshoot a little bit, like over the 25 grams, to make sure they get at least 3 grams of leucine. Because if you're doing a high-quality protein powder like a whey, which is about usually around 10% to 11% the amino acid leucine, in terms of content, you're probably going to get around 2.5 grams for 25 grams of protein and around 3 grams of leucine for 30 grams of protein. So, I tend to recommend people overshoot just a little bit because it's better, like I was saying earlier, to make sure you hit that leucine threshold than to underdo it and not hit the leucine amount that you need.

However, with Tone Protein, we've sort of created something that really doesn't exist on the market, as far as I know, because it is scientifically optimized to help you build lean mass without having to put in two or three huge scoops of protein powder and have 50, 60 or beyond that protein grams, which could cause some issues, like overdoing it a little bit in terms of that absorption. Instead, what we've done is optimize the amino acid profile to contain more leucine, so that you have that leucine, which is like the key in the ignition, starting the car, it's turning the ignition, it's initiating the process of muscle protein synthesis, and then you have the other grams of protein there to help you. And I was doing some videos on my Instagram last night showing people the difference with that giant red scoop that you sent me, which is like a standard sort of "meathead" like protein powder scoop. And it's absolutely huge. You can fit at least two, if not more, of the Tone Protein scoops in there and it really shows you the difference in terms of volume. And so to just be able to put one scoop in and know that my body is going to be able to trigger muscle protein synthesis or initiate it without having to just have scoops and scoops of all this protein, which is going to make you potentially feel a bit sluggish, a bit bloated, maybe put a little bit of that protein towards excess glucose, like just overdoing a little bit.

Whereas in my opinion, what you want to do is hit as close to your protein target as possible. You want to hit it so that you are initiating muscle protein synthesis, but you are not providing so much extra protein in the process that you can have those issues. And people have all kinds of issues like waking up all night to pee because they're just having too much protein to break down and sequester the nitrogen and the liver and then excrete that as urea in urine. There're just a lot of issues that can come up from really eating too much protein. So, I'm always about Optimal Protein, the name of my podcast, because it's not that easy to just hit the target to get enough. So, you are hitting your goals, but without overdoing it. And that's why I'm so excited in particular about Tone Protein and how it is scientifically optimized to help you build that lean mass in the most efficient way possible without all that extra protein.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. Absolutely, I think it comes down to what is the minimal effective dose and what is the absolute optimal dose. And then some people, we go beyond the optimal because we want to make sure we hit optimal. And I think that's what's going to be great about Tone Protein is that it is engineered to be the optimal way to get the right amount of protein, but more importantly, the right amount of amino acids in the right ratios. Specifically, leucine, as you so eloquently put it. And I was one of those meatheads when I was 24 as a bodybuilder, taking those giant scoops of protein. And it got to the point where it was just like you felt bloated and you've got digestive issues because it's a huge scoop. Someone in the earlier had said they're doing the two scoops. I don't know how on earth I could do two of those giant scoops that I'd sent you. And even I was shocked when I opened up that scooper and I was like, "Holy moly, that is a lot of powder." [laughs] So just one clarification too, when I say engineered, so processed food, as you mentioned, is food that is processed like a frozen pizza.

There's very little nutrition in a frozen pizza. Whereas protein powders for the most part are more like engineered versus processed. Yes, they are processed, but that's what allows them to be effective, that you're going to get that, it's easy to digest, it's easy to make, it's easy to get that protein into your body. So, what we're doing with Tone Protein, with MD Logic Health, is to just say what is the optimal ratio of amino acids and what's the perfect amount of protein that people can get? And if they want to add a little more based on their activity or their age, they can do that.

Vanessa Spina: The next question from Nikki is another sort of follow up to that. Nikki asks, "I have a feeling that she's going to answer this anyway," speaking about me. "But how much leucine does Tone Protein have in it per scoop?"

Scott Emmens: So right now, the current formula, we have 7 grams in there of leucine. We're still tweaking that because I think Vanessa, I think we were talking about 6 kind of being the perfect number. We might bring that down to 6, but it's going to have between 6 and 7 grams of total leucine in the formula.

Vanessa Spina: Which is huge, which means that no matter what age you are [chuckles] taking one scoop will get you enough leucine content in your bloodstream to trigger muscle protein synthesis. And it's going to help you be able to build muscle without having all that excess amount of protein that you probably don't need, but you don't have to worry if you're hitting that leucine threshold with your meal or with your shake, or with your meal plus shake. And this is something that I actually personally started doing with my father last year after he was recovering from back surgery, because he doesn't like to eat a lot of protein and he likes to eat more rice and noodles and just not a lot of animal protein. So, what I started getting him to do was to take leucine with his meals so that he could complement the protein that he was getting and make sure that at his age, he was hitting that leucine threshold and that would help him be able to recover much quicker from his surgery.

A few weeks ago, he won his local golf tournament [chuckles] after having back surgery only a year ago. And that's a testament to all his hard work and recovery. But I definitely think that the fact that he was prioritizing his muscle recovery and making sure to supplement properly probably helped a little bit in making sure that he was able to recover all that lean mass and as much as possible, because it is so much harder to do, they say, after the age of 40. I know for women, I'm not sure if it's the same for men, but women have a much harder time maintaining our muscle because our hormone levels change and certain hormones, like estrogen especially, can go lower, and it makes it much harder for women to retain lean mass.

And that actually leads us into our next question, which was from Kelly, and she says, "I have a question about protein and the correct amount for women in perimenopause. I keep hearing different amounts, 75 to 120 grams seems to be the range. Also, do amino acids replace animal protein or do you add it with protein? So, if you are doing one meal a day and potentially not getting enough animal protein, I have been doing one meal a day for eight months, and I have lost weight, but I'm also losing muscle (my butt has disappeared}." Crying, laughing emoji.

Scott Emmens: I think that's the critical issue. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: "Yes. I don't want to necessarily gain big muscle, but I need help with getting that tone back. I am looking forward to having Vanessa on the podcast. What an incredible duo?" Awe. That's so sweet. [laughs] Thank you so much, Kelly. I really appreciate the kind comments, and I love that you asked about your butt and being toned, because let's face it, a lot of us are interested in metabolic health, but we also want to be toned and maintain that muscle tone that we work so hard to achieve in the gym. And so, yes, for sure. Like I was just saying, as you approach menopause, your hormone levels are going to fluctuate and change. And it's one of the reasons that women have a harder time just maintaining the lean mass that we've built over the years. And that's why it's so critical to make sure that you're hitting that leucine threshold with your protein meals so that you won't lose muscle. And I'm not saying that it's inevitable that you'll lose muscle if you're doing one meal a day, but it is a little bit trickier to make sure that you are getting enough protein in. So that's why making sure that you are hitting the right amount of protein at your meals is really key. Do you have any thoughts on that, Scott?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. So, I think the differing amounts, 75 to 120 grams. Well, it really depends on your activity level and your lean weight. So, you should be getting somewhere between 0.8 and 1 gram or a little bit more per lean body weight. So, if you're 140 pounds of fairly lean body weight, you should be getting around 140 to 130 grams of protein. So, I don't know that a range of 75 to 120 is really an accurate range. And I think, again, it's going to come back to leucine, which also triggers growth hormone response. So, growth hormone is a powerful way to maintain muscle mass without gaining any excess weight. So, the leucine also acts as a way to keep your lean muscle without adding any fat. And there's another thing I might wait here, but she goes into the amino acids replacing animal protein. I don't know if you want me to get into that or just hold for a moment.

Vanessa Spina: No, go ahead.

Scott Emmens: So I think part of the reason and I don't know if this is the case, Kelly, but if you're doing just amino acids to replace the animal protein, that could be causing some of the loss of muscle mass because you're not getting sufficient total grams of protein. And it's funny enough, amino acids, I was actually having a conversation with our lead formulator and chemist about essential amino acids, and you can't count them as protein. So, if you put an essential amino acid powder together, you can't say it's x number of grams of protein. You just have to list it as the amino acids that you're getting in grams or milligrams. And the reason for that is that even though the nine essentials might make up a fairly complete protein, it's not a complete protein. And so, you can't call it a protein. There's nothing else in there your body literally will absorb those really quickly. It will put it onto your muscle mass, but there's no additional protein there other than those amino acids. So, you might only be getting the comparison of maybe 10 grams of protein from an essential amino acid powder, which is not sufficient. So that could be part of why you're losing a little bit of weight. So, I think to answer the question, you might not be getting enough animal protein and/or just full complete protein from a whey isolate protein. That's my answer to that part of that question, which is can they replace? And I would say no, they're a great addition. I'm a big fan of both essential amino acids and branch chain amino acids. They're particularly helpful pre-workout and post-workout, particularly if it's resistance training, but they're not really a replacement for protein.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I agree with everything that you said specifically on the first question, I personally also like to use an equation depending on if you know your lean body mass or not. If you do know your lean body mass, if you had a DEXA body scan done and say you know that you have like 104 pounds of lean body mass, you can easily from that do a calculation of 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass. If you don't know your lean body mass, you can just go with your ideal body weight. So, if your ideal body weight is 140, like you said, you could have 140 grams of protein per day. I also have a macro calculator on my website, which is ketogenicgirl.com, where you can also check out Tone Protein soon, but there's a macro calculator on there and you can calculate calories. You can also calculate the macros and the protein depending on your weight and your activity levels, which also make a huge difference. So, age, weight, activity levels are going to be the biggest factors when it comes to figuring out how much protein. And again, as you age, you need more. If you are doing resistance training, you need more. If you're doing any kind of growth, [chuckles] like you're growing muscle or you're growing a baby, you need more. We need a lot more protein when we are trying to grow our muscles or even just maintain those toned butts that [laughs] we work so hard to achieve.

Lastly, with regards to the question one meal a day, so I wanted to just share anecdotally that if I ever do one meal a day, which I do from time to time, especially when I'm really busy, because meal prep and cleanup and everything just takes so much time. I do sometimes do one meal a day and when I do, I always have a high-protein prioritized meal and I always chase it with a high-quality protein shake. And I make sure that I am getting enough protein at that meal because it is really hard sometimes with one meal a day to just sit there and eat that much protein in the form of animal protein. And I love animal protein, [laughs] like whether it's fish, chicken, turkey, beef, I just love it all. So, it is still hard for me to get enough protein if I'm doing just one meal a day. So, I always make sure to have a protein shake at the end. And I actually in the summertime, I usually have a protein shake after dinner just because I love making what I call protein ice cream, and I love having a delicious cold protein shake. It tastes like frozen yogurt or ice cream. I put unsweetened almond milk in there, ice, frozen berries, and I use Tone Protein and make a delicious either like a frozen sort of berry type of shake, which tastes a lot like frozen yogurt, or I just do vanilla plain, like a vanilla milkshake with Tone Protein, unsweetened almond milk and ice. And it's just a really nice way to-- it's like a dessert at the end of your meal. So, I love doing that in the summer as well.

Scott Emmens: Man that sounds fantastic. I can't wait to-- I love ice cream, but obviously not good for the waistline. So, I am definitely going to be trying, that for sure. So, if you're doing one meal a day, it might not be optimal to eat eggs at your one meal a day, but eggs, from what I've looked up and from bodybuilding days and from just a percentage of the amount of protein you're going to digest and how high quality it is, they're really easy to digest. Scrambled eggs, you can make four or five scrambled eggs, and it's not going to fill you up nearly as much as a meat would. So that might be a way to incorporate with your one meal a day, throw a couple of extra eggs into that meal and super easy to digest, very high-quality protein. So that might be a way to get that additional protein too.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's a great tip for sure. I love eggs. I'm obsessed with eggs, so [laughs] I love that idea. Now our next question from Hen or Hena on Facebook sort of circles around some of what we've just been talking about. So, "is there a real maximum of protein your body can uptake in one meal/drink? And should a 50-plus-year-old woman always take EAAs with their protein shake? What's better. EAAs essential amino acids or BCAAs, which is branch chain amino acids?"

Scott Emmens: So, in terms of should you always take them? I don't think you always have to take them. I don't think they hurt. And if you feel like you're getting benefit from that, there's nothing wrong with adding essential amino acids, although I don't necessarily think you need all of those essential aminos because you're getting a complete essential amino in the shake. So, I think it's going to come down again to what Vanessa and I are talking about, which is what are the most important amino acids to get your body into protein synthesis, and particularly that lean tissue growth. And that's going to be leucine again. So, it's not necessarily bad, but I think you're probably taking in a lot of excess essential amino acids that you don't necessarily need with a protein shake. And if you're taking just a protein shake, BCAAs and the primary activate ingredient in BCAAs is leucine, isoleucine, and valine that's your BCAAs. So, leucine is really the primary kicker in that. That's why you'll always see like a 2:1 ratio. Well, that 2:1 ratio in BCAAs is 2 grams of leucine for every 1 gram of isoleucine and valine hence why leucine is so critical. So, I think if you're taking Tone Protein, you're not going to necessarily need any additional essential amino acids because you're getting all those essential amino acids within whatever that complete protein shake, you're taking is, and the leucine rounds it off.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that's exactly what I would have said. I definitely, choosing between the two. I would supplement by adding BCAAs, but you really don't need to add the essential amino acids unless that's all you're having. If you're not having any protein or a protein shake, then you maybe want to take essential amino acids. But if you're taking a protein shake or protein meal, you don't need to add essential amino acids, but you could add BCAAs or leucine, which is what we're doing already, and having the optimal amount within the protein powder, which would be Tone Protein. So that's all that I would add there.

Denise asks, "with regards to whey protein powder, any knowledge and opinions to share? In my research, I have found many bad comments, such as it is inflammatory, toxic for the liver, highly processed and refined, not bioavailable, because only 18% is utilized by your body. The rest is passed through the kidneys, turned into sugar, stored as fat, and creates bulk." So, I just want to start off [chuckles] by saying that this reminds me so much of what I used to think about protein supplements, especially whey, when I was vegan and vegetarian. This is the kind of messaging that I would often see in vegan and vegetarian literature, vegan and vegetarian media, movies. This is the kind of stuff that I truly believed until I personally went back to school to study biochemistry, because I was tired of the politics of things and being influenced one way or another based on food politics [laughs] or animal politics. I wanted to just know the actual biochemistry. And I can tell you that every single one of those statements is actually false and is not actually scientific. So not saying that you are wrong in any way, but that these beliefs or these thoughts are based on bad facts. So, I'd love if Scott and I can just clear up some of these things. So, the first one is it inflammatory?

Scott Emmens: So, Vanessa, in order to be complete, I wanted to make sure I answered this essential amino acid question fully. And to start, I just want to say that this particular piece of information is coming directly from an essential amino acids supplement company utilizing this number of percent of whey protein being absorbed. And that's a huge jump from what 18% number is really trying to state. And I'm not going to get into that particular company or who they are, as I don't want to say anything negative about essential amino acids or their company, but that particular piece of data, zero sourcing. And it's a huge, in fact, it's just a complete in factual leap to say that the other remaining amino acids are going to turn into fats and sugars. It's absolutely ridiculous science, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the science. So, let's talk a little bit about why a complete protein with essential amino acids is really a great way to grow your muscles and maintain your overall health.

So just quickly, there are 11 nonessential amino acids. However, some of these nonessential amino acids are either considered more and/or supplementation with them is demonstrating positive results in certain areas. So, alanine, for example, functions by removing toxins from your body into production of glucose and it produces other amino acids. Cysteine acts as antioxidant and provides resistance to the body, and it's important for making collagen. Glutamine promotes a healthy brain function and is essential for the synthesis of DNA and RNA. Glycine is helpful in maintaining proper cell growth and its function. Glutamic acid is a neurotransmitter and involved in development of functioning brains. Arginine helps promote the synthesis and proteins of hormones, detoxification in the kidneys, and plays a major role in both wound healing and muscle recovery. Tyrosine plays a vital role in the production of thyroid hormones. Serine helps promote muscle growth and the synthesis of immune proteins.

Asparagine is mainly involved in the transportation of nitrogen in our cells and also supports the synthesis of DNA. Aspartic acid plays a major role in metabolism and promoting the synthesis of other amino acids. And proline is mainly involved in repairing the tissue formation of collagen, preventing the thickening and hardening of the walls of the arteries and the regeneration of new skin. And as we all know, collagen is one of the most in fact, it is the most prevalent protein in our body. So, if you're utilizing only essential amino acids and not getting a complete amino acid profile from a total protein, you're going to have to use all of those amino acids to make all these 11. And then these 11, once they're made, they have to be used to make some of the other amino acids. So, three or four of these amino acids are critical in the creation of the other amino acids in the non-essential. So, you really need to have certain essential amino acids?

Yes, absolutely the nine are very important, but without getting a complete protein, you risk being deficient in one or more of these other amino acids as you're utilizing all of the essential amino acids for either muscle creation or the creation of all of these other amino acids. You can also have different disease states, such as metabolic diseases, liver disorders, just a general genetic predisposition to not be able to synthesize certain amino acids properly. Vitamin C plays a critical role in the development of many of these. So, your levels of vitamin C can be depleted. So, when you only take in essential amino acids, you're forcing your body to work harder, and it could result in a deficiency in some of these other amino acids. Let's take a look at a couple of examples just to prove that point.

So, here's a study on glycine. The results of recent studies indicate that endogenous, meaning inside, endogenous synthesis of glycine and proline is inadequate for maximal growth and collagen production. It also goes on to state that serine is a non-essential amino acid that is biosynthesized via enzymes, phosphatidylglycerol and also phosphatidylserine aminotransferase and besides its role in protein synthesis, it is a potent neurotropic factor and a precursor to a number of essential compounds, including phosphatidylserine and glycine, d-serine, etc. And it goes on further. Dietary proline another example. Dietary proline is a necessary amino acid for promoting tissue repair and nitrogen balance in mammals and humans, especially in respects to wounds and burns, meaning healing. Well, when you work out, you're doing minor micro damage to your muscles. Thus proline, proline is also critical in collagen. These findings have an important implication for proline as a dietary essential nutrient for humans and animals under certain physiological and pathological conditions.

Meaning physiologically are you under great strain? Are you injured? Do you have achy joints? Or are your joints hurting? Does your body need to help create more collagen to protect those joints? And if you're burning up all of your other amino acids, you may or may not be getting sufficient proline. Further, new developments in proline metabolism are shaping the science and the practice of human nutrition. Merging evidence consistently points to proline as an important regulator of cell metabolism and physiology. Therefore, proline can be considered as both functional and potentially essential amino acid. This promising role of proline is expected to be translated into the efficiency of nutrient utilization and improved health in organisms. Another study that was done in combining essential amino acids and whey protein. This is just the conclusion. I'm trying to keep it brief. We conclude that a composition of balanced essential amino acids combined with whey protein is highly anabolic, essentially saying that EAAs by themselves are anabolic, whey by itself is anabolic, EAAs and whey protein combined is the most anabolic and that makes complete sense.

To me, I love essential amino acids, there's nothing wrong with them. But as your primary source of protein, it's probably not your best thing to do in combination with whey, which is what we're doing to create a balanced amount of whey protein and then include the proper amount of leucine and branch chain amino acids to stimulate the maximum amount of anabolic support with the amino acids that play the most essential role. So, getting a complete protein as well as the essential amino acids or the branch chain amino acids, I should say, that are so critical in your protein synthesis. So essential amino acids, to conclude, are really good when you take them, maybe immediately post workout and/or post workout with the whey, or have whey post workout and maybe your essentials before the workout. What I like to do is have essential amino acids prior to my work out because they're a little lighter on my stomach, and then have a whey protein. And I may or may not put a scoop of essential amino acids in with that, but whey protein by itself is going to give you all of the essential amino acids and all 11 of the non-essential amino acids.

So, if you're looking for a one and done, that's your whey protein. If you are really into weightlifting and resistance training and looking for that max anabolic growth, then you could certainly add an essential amino acid. And I have nothing against that. In fact, it's probably a product we're going to be looking to work on down the road. But I just want to bring home the point. And also with this last study, biochemically, one third of collagen molecule is composed of glycine, also another nonessential amino acid. The next amino acid component is proline. So back to proline. Together they comprise 23% of the collagen molecule. They are very important to support wounded collagen and collagen synthesis, and for adequate nutrition, assuring that the provision of calories of protein is complete, it goes on to say, however, despite adequate nutrition, clinically, there is a need to enhance collagen synthesis. And research has focused on the fact that collagen synthesis is increased by proline and by arginine. And arginine is another nonessential amino acid which actually helps create proline. And so, you would have to make arginine from your essential amino acids, which is then converted into proline. So, you're again burning up those essential amino acids and kind of burning your body's metabolism, all of the other enzymes and vitamins and minerals that act as cofactors and the other amino acids, including the nonessentials, to create all 20 amino acids.

So, again, nothing wrong with essential amino acids as an additive. It's a great way to add some low calorie aminos to your diet. But in terms of getting your full body, especially for collagen, if you want to make sure that your joints and your skin are really holding up, you really want to make sure you're getting complete protein, and then you can certainly feel free to add essential amino acids to that. But I just wanted to make sure we cleared that up. I hope that was helpful. Every single bit of literature I can find has nothing but praise for whey isolates. Where whey protein can be inflammatory is if you're getting a cheaper version of whey, which is called whey concentrate, they have not removed the lactose and other impurities in that protein. And so, what's causing the inflammation is the lactose. It's not the protein itself. So, in terms of where that's coming from, it's coming from, again, maybe a cherry-picked piece of data on whey concentrate, which is not often used these days. But if you see a very inexpensive whey protein, odds are its whey concentrate and that's the one that's going to give you bloating, inflammation and cause these other issues. But whey protein isolates not going to cause any of these.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, and this is huge for anyone who is taking a protein supplement already, make absolutely sure that when you are purchasing your whey protein, that when you look at the ingredients, you just see whey protein isolate because a lot of the times you will turn the product around and the first ingredient will be whey protein concentrate and the second will be whey protein isolate. And so, the product is mostly concentrate and that's because it is much cheaper to produce.

Scott Emmens: And oftentimes it'll say whey protein isolates on the front of the labeling with the marketing part. But when you flip it around, you look at the supplement facts, that's what to your point, Vanessa, when it's going say, what's really in there and if whey concentrate is in there at all, I wouldn't take it. But if it's the first ingredient, that's going to mean the bulk of that protein is coming from whey concentrate.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I couldn't agree more and I think you're absolutely right. That is the issue with them being potentially inflammatory. And a lot of people believe that dairy is inflammatory when it's actually one of the best foods for building muscle. And the fact that whey is a derivative of dairy is because of the high leucine content. Like some of the highest leucine content foods are milk. The reason is to help you build muscle and grow. And that's one of the reasons it has one of the highest biological value in terms of protein. I think it's like breast milk, eggs and whey are the top three when it comes to just the biological value, the quality of that protein, and the higher quality, not only better absorption, but the better effects you're going to have in terms of building your muscle. So being toxic for the liver, I'm not sure where that comes from.

It's definitely a myth because when your body breaks down protein, there is nitrogen with the protein, but your body needs nitrogen. We need nitrogen. We are a species that requires nitrogen. So, what happens is the liver will actually sequester that nitrogen and it will get rid of it. It'll excrete it via the urine, so it turns it into urea. So, it sequesters the ammonia that comes from breaking down protein in the nitrogen and it sequesters it very safely in the liver. And then you just excrete it as you do other things that your body doesn't need or use. So, it's not toxic for the liver. There was a lot of mythology out there surrounding protein being bad for the kidneys, which we addressed when we started off the episode. But I've done a lot of episodes of my podcast just debunking that and showing the systematic reviews, showing that for a healthy individual with healthy functioning kidney and livers, there are definitely no issues with regards to any kind of toxicity.

Scott Emmens: And again, I would say this probably comes from whey concentrate and the low-quality protein, maybe there's dyes, fillers, chemical agents that they're using in that particular study. But this definitely where this came from, I think is looking at either a whey concentrate or some very impure form of a whey protein.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, and then the next part, it not being bioavailable, it actually is the most bioavailable protein because when you look at plant proteins, although I think that some of them have value to them, the proteins and the amino acids in the plants are made for plants. The amino acids and proteins in animal protein are made for us. So, [chuckles] our bodies are able to absorb, digest, simulate and build from them much more easily. So, it is actually the most bioavailable. So only being able to absorb or use 18% is definitely not true. You're probably absorbing and utilizing all of it. And because our protein recommendations are so low, they're a lot lower than they should be for most people. Most people are undernourished when it comes to protein. And so, it's very likely that if you start increasing your protein percentage or your protein intake, your body's going to use all of it, if not most of it. But it would never use such a low amount as 18%.

Scott Emmens: I couldn't agree more. I'll just say [chuckles] absolutely correct. Whey protein is one of the most bioavailable forms of protein you're going to get.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And the rest being passed to the kidneys, turning into sugar and stored as fat, creating bulk this really is also untrue. And if you look at aesthetic competitor's, bodybuilders, they are probably the biggest users of whey protein and protein supplementation. And they are the ones who are the most lean, the most ripped, most jacked, the most muscled, and they compete against each other on stage for who has the most muscle. So, if all this whey protein or protein that they were eating was just turning into sugar or turning into fat, then they would all be obese. But the protein is not fuel in the same way that carbs and fats are fuel. Those are fuels that the body can store and can use. Protein cannot be stored. It is a biological material and you have to think of it in terms of two different categories.

There're fuel categories which are fat and carb, and then there is building blocks and that's protein. So, when you're eating protein, not only are you losing 20% to 30% of the calories just in breaking it down, which boosts your metabolic rate, but you're using that protein to build tissue, to build muscle, to build organs, to build bone, which is mineralized protein to build hormones, to build neurotransmitters. There are so many things that we need amino acids for and it's definitely not being turned into sugar, being stored as fat. And the last point of making you bulky, I think this is a huge myth that was out there for a long time, that women should avoid doing strength training because they would become bulky. And anyone who has taken up resistance training and tried to grow muscle knows how hard it is to even just put on a pound of muscle. And even if you try your hardest and you're supplementing with all the whey and you're working out five to six times a week, it's still hard to put muscle on. So, women, when we put muscle on, we tend to not get bulky. We actually just look leaner and fitter and our clothes feel better. So, it's really such an outdated concern that people have. And I understand why people have this belief because it was something that a lot of us believed for a long time and why we were all just like little cardio bunnies working out at the gym and just being fueled off of all that cortisol which is not great for muscle instead of lifting weights, which out of a fear of becoming bulky and really that's not what happens at all.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. And I can tell you as a former bodybuilder, I got on stage at 4% body fat and those --last yeah, it was really lean. And my last week of food was almost exclusively protein up until the day of the competition, where you eat a bunch of carbs and you carb up to get your muscles full of carbohydrates and glycogen to make them pop more. But yeah, you're basically eating pure protein. My diet was 12 egg whites in the morning, 12 egg whites in the afternoon, three or four chicken breasts at night, and a few protein shakes in between and that was on top of intense, intense training. So yeah, you're not going to be putting a lot of stored fat. I think, again, that's coming from glucose or lactose rather, or other impurities. And I think you nailed it on the bulk. I think part of that too, having been in that world, is a lot of my colleagues and a lot of even the female weightlifters were taking steroids. And so that's, I think, what created that myth in the 80s and 90s, that pervade into 2000s. I think we're finally breaking that myth. But you're exactly right, it takes an enormous amount of work. And I know because I was competing with people on steroids and I had to work incredibly hard at my diet and in the gym in my 20s to put on muscle mass, it was very hard to put on muscle mass. Now I'm 52, giving away my age, and it's gotten substantially harder to maintain and put on muscle mass. It definitely doesn't get easier. So, if you're in your 30s, this is the time to create your foundation because it's only going to get more difficult.

Vanessa Spina: Now, Sandra asks, "what is the cleanest protein powder to buy and the best protein bar?" And Joe Beth says, I agree, that's my question as well.

Scott Emmens: So, the cleanest isn't on the market yet, but it's about to be. That'll be Tone Protein. We're taking that very seriously, which is why the formula that we're engineering and tweaking to perfection will be out shortly. I know Vanessa will have updates for all of you guys as to when that's going to be available. There are some really good whey proteins out there, but I would encourage you to look at the label and see what is in the protein. And the less stuff in it, the cleaner it's going to be. You just want whey protein isolates without any concentrate and the least amount of additional dyes, flavors, etc., that you can get in there. Most of them, I don't know any of them that have extra leucine in them I think will be the first on the market, which might be a trendsetter, and I'm sure it will be. Is that also the plant based one or no, that's a different question.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. There was a question from Denise asking "if plant-based protein powder is a better alternative. I'm really trying hard to get my protein macros in for the day and using protein powder seems to be the only way for me."

Scott Emmens: Okay, so I'll circle back to the bars. --I used to do the protein bars. I've stopped doing them because I haven't really found a protein bar that I personally like. So, I just take branch chain amino acids during the day or I'll take an extra protein shake rather than a bar. That's just my personal opinion. I don't know of any bars personally that I would take at this point. So, I don't know if you have a comment on the bars before we move on to the plant-based question.

Vanessa Spina: I don't. Unfortunately, no. I don't use them myself.

Scott Emmens: So, the plant based is a better alternative? No, it's definitely not a better alternative. In order to get a complete protein from plants, you really have to blend a number of plants and typically you're going to see a pea protein mixed with a pumpkin seed. Maybe like a hemp protein might be mixed in with that, but you're going to have to blend a number of different sort of plant powders and then you have to take pretty large scoops of that powder to get equivalent amounts of a complete protein. So, a plant-based protein powder is not a better alternative for bioavailability, for completeness, and definitely not for leucine. It's got a very low leucine component compared to a whey protein.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I definitely agree with that. Now, one of our last questions here, Anna asks, "in a recent Instagram post, Joel Green talks about BCAAs or branch chain amino acids, restricting three certain amino acids valine, leucine, and isoleucine for longevity. Thoughts?"

Scott Emmens: So, I think what we're getting at is maybe like the mTOR process that people are concerned about. The body sort of overregulating, but if all you're doing is branch chain amino acids, you're going to be missing the complete protein. So, I would not recommend anyone do just BCAAs. You want to have a complete protein with additional BCAAs, because again, that's going to be the thing that helps your muscle synthesis. And as I had said earlier, longevity is tied to so many. if you just Google right now the top five things that project longevity, you're going to see strength, speed, lean muscle mass, lower body muscle mass, lower body strength. All of those things that are related to muscle are going to be the things that are going to most predict your longevity. As you get into your 50s and 60s, even your 30s, that's going to be the thing that determines it. From my perspective, if it's just BCAAs, yes, you could be triggering something that's not positive. But we're not recommending that you take just BCAAs. If you're going to take BCAAs, it should be in combination with a whole protein. The only time I take BCAAs solo is right after my workout. But almost always within an hour, I'm eating an egg white or a complete egg protein or some animal protein along with it.

Vanessa Spina: So, [laughs] this is a question that we talk about endlessly on the Optimal Protein podcast. Is that tradeoff between longevity and health span? And I recently asked Dr. Ted Naman, when he was on the podcast, what he thought about this, and he said, there definitely is a little bit of a tradeoff when you look at sort of different animal models and even rodent research, that if you do restrict the protein, you can add some years to those rodents or animal lives. But what if you end up being really frail, but you're just living longer? Is that going to give you a high quality of life? And I really like the answer that he gave that he would rather be strong and fit. And your muscle is that bank account, that savings account for your longevity and quality of life. So, if you want to live well and live long, I think that the priority really should be having an optimal body composition, having a good amount of lean mass, as much muscle as you can put on and keep on because that'll enable you to do all the things that you love doing.

Whether it's doing sports that you love, the hobbies that you love, whether it's chasing after your grandchildren in the garden, like whatever it is that you want to do in your older years. You want to be able to have energy, have a strong metabolism, and have a lot of lean mass so that you can keep up with all the things that you want to do. And so, I definitely think that there's actually a little bit of value to restricting not just those branch chain amino acids, but all food here and there. I do a few seasonal fasts every year because I like to get some autophagy and just clean up any misfolded proteins and organelles and ramp up the autophagy, and the mitophagy but we do it every night. You know our bodies --as long as we're prioritizing sleep, our bodies will do a lot of those processes and sort of that cellular cleanup will occur. But you really want to make sure that you're not going to be frail in your older years, because those are the things that actually can do a lot of people in. Like I have relatives that it just took one sort of fall at the end and you break a hip or something and that's it.

You really want to have strong bones. Like I said, bones are mineralized protein and adding a little bit of time at the end. If you're not strong, if you're not energetic, what's the point really? What is it going to do for you? So, I do think that the point is valid. If you restrict protein,-- not just branch chain amino acids, if you restrict protein from time to time, you will get some autophagy and you probably will be a little bit healthier, like metabolically, but doing it on a consistent basis, like over restricting protein, not getting your protein target as much as possible, not doing resistance training. I think that's really not going to set you up in the best way for those later years. Well, I had so much fun answering all of these questions with you today, Scott. We had so many brilliant questions, and I loved how going through each of them, I knew that these were questions that a lot of people have. And I hope that we're able to maybe clear know some of the mythology out there about the negative aspects of protein or protein supplementation.

And I really just want to underline the importance of protein intake for women. Throughout our lives we're often encouraged to restrict to eat salads, to avoid working out, avoid weights. When it turns out that these are all the things that make us stronger, physically stronger and also healthier and making sure to prioritize protein. Get enough protein in not only at every meal, but in every day to do resistance training, if possible, at least once or twice a week. If not three to four times a week. These are going to be the things that really help us as women to be strong and also look great and look toned, and look great in our jeans as well. And I think that these are concerns that a lot of women have. And I just think that we've had sort of some of the wrong messaging for a long time and I think that that's being corrected now with actual facts and I'm just seeing so many women out there who are embracing resistance training, an optimal protein intake, understanding the importance of protein. And this audience certainly [chuckles] seems to understand that message that protein is important. Prioritizing it is important. And of course, we're practicing time restricted eating, we're doing Intermittent fasting, we're doing different bio hacks and different approaches that will help us to also make sure that we have a long lifespan. But it's very important to have a long health span as well.

Scott Emmens: Yep. And that's know, I am so proud that MD Logic Health is partnering with Tone Protein to create this product because I think it is sorely needed on the market. And I feel really impassioned to create this with you. And I know you're incredibly passionate about this, in fact, that's what your whole podcast is about. And so, what makes me so excited is I know that-- just to give a I'd be remiss if I didn't say so. MD Logic goes through with their partners extensive pre ingredient testing. So, before the ingredients even get into our shop, we test every ingredient for impurities, mold, toxins, strength, identity, etc., and composition so it doesn't even come into our warehouse, it's quarantined. And we test those individual ingredients and I mean all of them before they get into the formula.

Then we create the formula based on the science and then we retest that same formula for strength, impurity, toxins and composition again, which is called batch testing. And that product, when it leaves our facility and gets into your hands, we know we've tested every ingredient. And then after the processing has happened and all the ingredients are combined, we retest it to make sure that nothing has changed with those ingredients. And everything that is in there is supposed to be and there's nothing that's not and that is a GMP USA certified facility. And so, we're really thrilled that we're going to be able to create both a clean, pure product, but also one based in science. It's going to help all the members and people that are affiliated with IF podcast and the Optimal Protein podcast.

Vanessa Spina: And it also tastes delicious. [laughs] So, you can enjoy your protein ice cream, your protein shakes, and also enjoy building muscle, improving your metabolic health. I'm so happy to be partnering with you as well, and I'm so excited to bring this product to my community, to my listeners, and now the listeners of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast as well. But thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us today, Scott, on the episode, it's always a treat whenever I get to listen to episodes that you do with Melanie. And when we get to talk about some of the sort of formulation aspects of supplementation and just sharing. I think today we really got to share a lot of interesting facts and knowledge about protein itself as a supplement. So, I really enjoyed having you on so much.

Scott Emmens: Thank you so much. Thank you to the audience. These were great questions. I was happy to be here.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jul 16

Episode 326: Weddings, Castles, Ice Baths, Running, Hypoglycemic Response, Electrolytes, Sugar Free Gum, Strong Cravings, Autophagy, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Danger Coffee: Support your fast with clean, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant rich, patent-pending coffee developed by Dave Asprey, which actually remineralizes your body with 50+ trace minerals, nutrients, and electrolytes! Danger Coffee uses a process that exceeds government and industry standards, and is third-party lab tested to be free of contaminants and mold. Dave selected the hand-picked, farm-direct beans for their quality, superb floor, and elevated performance. Get 10% off at melaneavalon.com/dangercoffee with the code melanieavalon!

AG1: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at drinkAG1.com/ifpodcast!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% Off At melaneavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

AG1: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At drinkAG1.com/ifpodcast!

AVALONX BERBERINE: This Natural, Potent Anti-Inflammatory Plant Alkaloid Reduces Blood Sugar And Blood Lipids, Aids Weight Loss, Supports A Healthy Body Composition, Stimulates AMPK And Autophagy, Benefits Gut Bacteria And GI Health, And More! Help Us Release What Works Best For You! From 7/07 to 07/17 Select Your Favorite Option For 22% off Of The Berberine Big Bottle Subscription pre-launch!
AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At Avalonx.Us/Emaillist! Get 10% Off Avalonx.Us And Mdlogichealth.Com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Go To toneprotein.com To get the Vanessa's New Protein Supplement with an exclusive pre-launch discount!

Listener Q&A: Evi - Questions for Vanessa

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

Listener Q&A: Ben - Does chewing sugar free gum like “Extra” ruin most of the benefits of intermittent fasting

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I am doing awesome. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. We were saying last week or actually two weeks ago, because I think last week we had our fabulous episode with Paul, hopefully since we haven't recorded [laughs] it yet, but manifesting putting that out there. I was going to tell you about my experience at my brother's wedding.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I can't wait to hear everything.

Melanie Avalon: I decided-- I love weddings. Do you like weddings?

Vanessa Spina: I do, yeah. They're so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting because it's seeing people and hanging out and like, drinks and food and fun. But then it's also family and then the blend, did I tell you the blend of families at this wedding?

Vanessa Spina: Um-mm.

Melanie Avalon: So [chuckles] on my mom's side of the family, her side of the family is Southern, but very Christian, very religious, like conservative. Then my dad's side of the family is like, Southern, more like to have a good time, just a different vibe. [chuckles] And then on her side of the family, the bride's side, her father is Jewish, so there was a whole Jewish culture. It was actually a Jewish wedding. And then her mom is Puerto Rican, so everybody flew in from Puerto Rico. So, it was like this blend of families. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: It's just crazy to feel all the dynamics. So even like at the dance party, at the end, half the songs they're playing were all these Latin America songs that none of us knew, but they all knew, like, every word too. And it was my first Jewish wedding. I'd never been to it. Have you been to a Jewish wedding?

Vanessa Spina: I actually have never been to one.

Melanie Avalon: It was nice to see the traditions.

Vanessa Spina: I've seen it, it's so beautiful.

Melanie Avalon: Like in general Jewish weddings.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I've just seen some of the traditions in movies or shows and they just look so neat.

Melanie Avalon: It was exciting. I feel like it was educational and it was at a winery, which was fun. And I did successfully sneak in my Dry Farm Wines because if I'm going to be drinking more than normal, I have to have my organic low alcohol wines. So, I did that successfully. So that was helpful [laughs] for having a lot to imbibe in. But some takeaway highlights were my parents got down on the dance floor, which was-- I was not anticipating that. So that made my life beyond belief. My life is complete. And then I did give a bit of a speech. Have you given a speech before at a wedding?

Vanessa Spina: I was my best friend's maid of honor and it was huge, they had so many guests. I did a speech in front of all of them and it was really special but nerve wracking.

Melanie Avalon: Had you written it out and read it or how did you do it?

Vanessa Spina: I think I had notes. I think I had notes for it. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I kind of had like an outline as a joke. I got ChatGPT to write some of it because my brother and I always talk about ChatGPT. And then I just brought in some personal stuff as well. It was really fun. But then the funny moment for me [laughs] "Oh, I'm trying to decide if I should share this." So, my brother is he's younger, he's like 20-- I should know this. I think he's like 28. His wife, crazy, she's like 25, 26. Everybody was mostly younger as far as like the bridal party and everything. And so there [chuckles] was the party at the wedding and then the winery and it was amazing. And then we went to like, the "after party." I literally felt like I was back in college because it was like, at the groom's-- like the house where the groomsmen and the bridesmaids were staying. It was like old school, college vibes. [laughs] I was like, [laughs] "This is so fun." I saw somebody across the room who looked older. I was feeling like a little bit out of place. I literally just walked up to him and I was like, "Hi, you look old. Can we be friends?" [chuckles] Literally, that was my opening line. I was like, "How old are you?" And he was like, "I'm 38." And I was like, "Oh, great." [laughs] I was like me and you, we're talking. But then what's really funny is it was my brother's boss [laughs] who flew in for the wedding. So, I became like friends with his boss, which was just like precious.

Vanessa Spina: Became besties.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It was a really fun time, though, all around and it was really beautiful. The North Georgia mountains are very, very beautiful. There's like wineries. It's like very unexpected.

Vanessa Spina: That sounds gorgeous.

Melanie Avalon: So now, I want to go to another wedding. People need to get married [chuckles] so I can go hang out. That's my life. What's new with you?

Vanessa Spina: That sounds amazing. That sounds like so much fun. We had a really fun weekend too. We had a lot of fun, a lot of family fun. And we had a little birthday party for one of Luca's little friends, Maya. His little girlfriend was turning two, so we had--

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait. Pause, his girlfriend?

Vanessa Spina: No, not really his girlfriend, but him and Maya, they're just like two peas in a pod. They're almost the exact same age. So out of all their little friends here, him and her, they kind of get each other. They're always going through similar stages, and they're really cute. Like, Luca will feed her blueberries or I don't know. They're just so cute together. So, it was her birthday party, and we had, like, a barbecue in the park, this beautiful park in Prague. And we all brought, like, whatever we wanted to grill. Their extended family was all visiting from Arizona, so it was really fun to have all them there. And we just had a great time celebrating with them. And it was just a really fun weekend. They've had this thing called Children's Day here. And so, on Saturday, went to the Castle Royal Gardens, and they had this sort of recreation of what like a medieval carousel would look like. And I was actually asking them if it was the original, because Pete and I were debating if it was the actual original carousel from back then, and she said it's not, but they rebuilt it to look like the one in her grandfather's pictures. So, it was like, it was a good recreation of an original medieval style carousel with just all this so beautifully hand painted and gorgeous. There's just been all these events like that around the city, so Luca's gotten to go on all these carousel rides and stuff and he loves it. So, it's really fun just to have activities like that to go and do. And the weather has just been so sunny and amazing. Just glorious, sunny summer days.

Melanie Avalon: A carousel? Like a moving carousel? Like a ride. They had those in the medieval times.

Vanessa Spina: Apparently, they did? [chuckles] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: What motorized them?

Vanessa Spina: There's one. So, the guy, like, cranks it.

Melanie Avalon: A guy's pumping it?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. He's like crank. And so, this one had like it was all wooden, and it was beautifully painted. And then they had these little boxes, so Pete and Luca sat in one. But there's another one near our house in the park that's from, I think, about 100 years ago or 150 years ago. And it's from Italy, and it's original, and it's the one with, like, the horses that go up and down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, that's what I'm picturing.

Vanessa Spina: So beautiful, it's so beautiful. And it's actually, like, authentically from that time. And that one's really fun, too. We can sit on the horse and stuff. I have a reel on my Instagram where Luca and I are on it together.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. I'm going to go find that ASAP.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] It's from last summer.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Just fun little things like that from another time. But as I was telling you last week, we're so excited to go visit more castles, and a lot of the castles here are actually were inspiration for the Disney Castles. I have to send you pictures of that. There's this one, it's about 2 hours south of here and it looks like the actual Disney, like, the main Disney Castle. Like, I'm pretty sure it's the one that inspired their creation of it. And it's so amazing because they have all the original furniture in it. All the original chandeliers like I was telling you. And you can walk through. It takes a couple hours to do a tour and it's so stunning. But I have to send you a picture of it because you'll be like, "Oh, my gosh, that's the Disney castle."

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. I want to live in a castle.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, same. [laughs] I always walk through, and I'm pretending that this was my house.

Melanie Avalon: You live there? [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] This is my house. And this is, like, my little window sill where I would read books or write poems [laughs] or I don't know, whatever they were doing, like, stitching, needle points or whatever at the window. It just sounds tranquil.

Melanie Avalon: It does. Although we probably really idolize it. Can you imagine, like, the bathroom situation back then?

Vanessa Spina: That's not the medieval thing. You don't want a medieval bathroom, like no.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. And just, like, family dynamics, people. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I think life was very good for just a few people. For most people, it was not very good. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: [chuckles] I shouldn't laugh, but yeah, it's a gratitude moment, and I realize even now there are people privileged, but I'm just very grateful to not be, like, a peasant.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. The average person like today's peasant lives and I'm talking about the average person ourselves compared to those kings and queens back in the day, even an average person with a decent income has better bathroom situation than a king 100 years ago. You know what I mean? Our comforts, we talk a lot about the plagues of prosperity, like, the different issues we have from our convenient lifestyles, but we're so comfortable compared to-- we have things that emperors and kings and queens in the past would have only dreamed of. So, I think we have it pretty good. I agree. Thankfulness moment.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it really becomes present when you lose it. Like, when the power goes out or the water is not working, and you're like, "Wow, I really need to not take this for granted." It's kind of mind blowing. Even the shower, I can just go in this little room and turn on this thing. And water comes from the ceiling any temperature I want and immediately gets taken care of. It's not messy. [laughs] Everything I don't know, modern life, I appreciate it.

Vanessa Spina: It's about that every day. I'm thankful every day for my kitchen, for our bed, for the dishwasher. Everyday I'm like, "Pete, dishwashers are amazing." You put it on and it cleans everything for you. We have it so good.

Melanie Avalon: We really do.

Vanessa Spina: Technologies, amazing technologies. We're talking to each other right now from across the world. Like, we would have had to take a steamboat or something for, like, two months to have a conversation at a different time.

Melanie Avalon: Or, like, texting now. It's like the modern-day equivalent of writing letters. Think about how much you stress writing a text to your lover. And now think about if you could only do it via letters. And it was like months and months in between.

Vanessa Spina: caring.

Melanie Avalon: You wouldn't know if you've been ghosted because the turnaround time [laughs] is already like ghosting time.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It feels like you have to be so patient.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: But it also sounds kind of romantic.

Melanie Avalon: It does. Did you ever send actual letters with people?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. When Pete and I first met, I sent him a letter with a CD I made for him. I think it was like a CD with mp3s on it of songs that made me think of him. And he loved it. [laughs] He was so excited and thrilled. And because we did long distance for a long time when we first met, I was in Canada, in Vancouver and he was in Denver. We really got to build such a beautiful friendship because we were just getting to know each other a lot. Just, like, talking to each other on, like, what was the messenger? We were on some chat on the computer. We would message each other on there. We would text, we would email, we would call each other, and then we would get to see each other. And it was so romantic. He'd come pick me up at the airport and take me on amazing dates, and then he asked me to go to Hawaii with him. After we had-- I think we'd been on two or three dates of seeing each other in Vancouver and Colorado.

He's like, "Do you want to go to Maui?" I was like, "Yeah." [laughs] So went to Maui together and we took, I think it was like a week holiday or something. And it was amazing because we're dating long distance. Like, normally a long-distance relationship, you're like, together and then you have to live apart. But dating long distance is totally different. So, we kind of had to figure out, is this going to work out? Is this worth dating long distance? We had to get to know each other a little bit faster, and that was, like, the best way. We had the most incredible romantic time there together. I just remember being in my pajamas, like, brushing my teeth with him, and I was like, this is so weird. I don't really know him that well. [laughs] And we're like brushing our teeth with our pajamas on, but it was so amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. We're so similar because when I had a long-distance relationship, I was all about it for all of the reasons you just said. Like, you get to know the person through talking, so it's like all conversations and you don't get to know them one level physically. I don't know. You were talking about, like, cultivating the friendship. I feel like you get a lot of that aspect and then it's just, like, so magical when you actually are together because it's very limited treasure time. So, it's like magical romance and I need my space. So, I was like, "This is great." I was like, "I was made for long distance relationships."

Vanessa Spina: They're so great.

Melanie Avalon: We should write a book about it. I remember I was, like, looking up all the stats when I was in it because apparently the stats are not favorable. I was like, "I don't know. I'm down. This works for me." And I've said this before-- I don't know, if I'll ever be married, but I don't know if I could live with somebody. And if I did, I think I would still need my own bedroom. I need my space.

Vanessa Spina: I used to always say I would need a separate wing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Yes.

Vanessa Spina: No matter the size of the house, I would need my own area.

Melanie Avalon: In our castle.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. In the castle, exactly, exactly. I think it keeps a little bit of the romance alive longer when you have your own bathrooms that’s definitely--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if that would-- not that would solve relationship problems. But it's kind of a cool hack.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It really, really helps if you can do it just to have your own space. My husband uses

Melanie Avalon: Do you guys have separate bathrooms?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he uses our hallway/guest bathroom and I use our bedroom one. And it actually works out great for him because he has one of those standing showers in the what's it called? The door. [chuckles] It's got a door to it. I don't know what they're called. Just a shower with a door. Whereas mine is like a bathtub with a shower. So, we each have our preferences and it works really well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you take baths?

Vanessa Spina: I take ice baths. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I need to get on that.

Vanessa Spina: The only kind of bath I take lately. But I did like in the last six months, I think a couple of months ago I was having some muscle soreness, which I never have. And so, I did an Epsom salt bath and it was amazing. It really helped.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I've actually never done one, actually. I might have a long time ago. But people swear by those. Think about what people-- just to bring this awful circle, think about people back in the old times and how often they could take baths and showers. Their hair was probably really greasy.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I think maybe in some ways it was better because you'd have more natural oils in your hair whereas I think we tend to now like over bathe.

Melanie Avalon: That's true. They might not have had as much of the rebound effect from responding to all these stripping products. Yeah. Well, [chuckles] on that note, I will just make a really quick announcement, because the day this airs, tomorrow is the last day to get grandfathered in for life for my berberine subscription. So, friends, if you've been wanting to take control of your blood sugar levels with berberine, which is an herb that's been used in ayurvedic and Chinese medicine for thousands of years, can have a profound effect on your blood sugar, your cholesterol levels, even your gut microbiome, and can activate longevity pathways like AMPK. You definitely want my AvalonX Berberine. I sound like a commercial right now, [chuckles] but I'm not reading anything. I'm just saying this. Tomorrow is the last day to get a subscription for life and you can pick either two bottles every two months or two bottles every three months. And doing so is going to help us figure out what you guys most want when it comes to launching a large bottle option, which in the end is the most sustainable option for everybody. So definitely get that. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. And then would you like to give your landing page for your Tone Protein, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. If you would like to get the launch discount, make sure to go toneprotein.com and sign up with your name and email so that you can get the launch discount. It'll be the biggest discount that will ever be had on it. So definitely sign up if you're interested in checking out the protein that I am making. And it is going to be scientifically optimized for muscle protein synthesis in a way that no other protein powder does. So, I am super excited about it and that's at toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have a question from Evie, and the subject is actually questions for Vanessa. So, she has two questions, but of course we can both answer these. So, question one for Vanessa. She says, "I have been low-carb for years, mixing it up with being in ketosis. I am hardly ever hungry and feel good and healthy at the age of 48. What does it mean/what happens when I have a sweet cake and an hour later, I feel cold, sweaty and no energy?" So, I think we can answer that.

Vanessa Spina: So, my first-- Hi, Evie thank you for your question. And it's great that you've been doing low carb and sort of mixing it up with being in ketosis and sounds like you don't have out of control hunger and you feel good and healthy. But what I would say, my initial thought is that it's a hypoglycemic response and sometimes people who do a keto or low carb, they get a kind of hypoglycemic response, which is just temporary or transient. And it's because your body is not used to receiving these higher carb loads at one time because you're more optimized for fat burning. So, if you do eat something that's like really sugary or processed like a sweet cake, then it probably will send your blood glucose a lot higher than if you were eating carbs all the time. And it's just sort of a temporary response. So that's probably why you're having that, is that your blood sugar is going a lot higher. And then because it's going so high, it's then dropping quite low afterwards. And that's usually what that means if you feel like a cold sweat and no energy. But I'm not a doctor by any stretch, so I would definitely ask a properly trained doctor about that.

If you have concerns about it, just note that it's very common for people who do keto and low carb and then they eat something that they don't normally eat because you're just not trained to. If you were to go back and eat carbs for a week and then have a sweet cake, then you probably wouldn't have that effect, I'm guessing. But because you're so optimized for fat burning, your body doesn't-- it gets kind of overwhelmed by all of that sugar hitting all at once when it's not used to having much in there. And the body's always optimizing for whatever you're giving it on a regular basis. It's always preparing. And so, if you're eating carbs on a regular basis, it's ready to go. It goes, "Oh, I know what this is, it's carb coming in, I have the insulin ready to go to get the blood sugar under control so it doesn't go too high." But then when you're eating keto and low carb, you're not all ready for that. Your body not as primed for that, so it can send blood sugar higher than normal, and then you may have a low. But again, I'm not a doctor, so you'd need a professional interpretation of it. But I'm just thinking that's what it could potentially be. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and I think I read it wrong. I think I said cold, sweaty, and it's cold sweat, like you were saying. That was my exact thoughts. Because basically when you get that swing up and then that drop, the body will often respond with like cortisol and adrenaline to raise back up your blood sugar, and that can create those cold sweat feelings. So, it's probably what's going on. This would be a great example of somebody who could benefit probably from wearing a CGM if you haven't. And actually, on today's episode, I did not plan this, but NutriSense is a sponsor of today's episode and I love using their CGMs. And if you wear a CGM, it's basically a continuous glucose monitor and it gives you a real time picture 24/7 of your blood sugar levels and how you are responding to food. It's technically testing your interstitial fluid, but it is a reflection of your blood sugar.

If you were wearing that during this experience, Vanessa, you could see if that is what's happening and what that would look like. It would go up and then drop down. So, yes, our code for NutriSense, you can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST, and that will save you $30 and it will also get you one month of free dietitian support. And the cool thing about the dietitian support is they will actually help you interpret what you're seeing on the CGM and give you guidance and advice. So, it's a very, very cool thing.

Okay. Her second question, she says, "What is important to eat in real food form as a lifelong runner?" I ran my first marathon last year. I don't take any supplements ever. I feel healthy now, but I don't want my joints to suffer. I want to be able to run as long as I can. I don't take collagen or protein or energy bars as I don't feel the need, but I worry it may catch up with me. If you recommend any products, please bear in mind, she lives in Prague. [chuckles] She says, "I live in Prague. I like you live in Prague and may not be able to get things." Thank you. I do have a quick question before we answer this. Vanessa being in Prague, is there an Amazon Prague?

Vanessa Spina: There's an Amazon Germany, so I do order from them a lot. But I usually-- if there's anything that I specifically can't get here, I usually just stock up on it when we're home, and there're a few things that I can get here, but they're just like two, three times the price. So, like, my magnesium calm, I always get that. I think Natural Vitality, I always get some of those when we're home. I bring back lots of LMNT, LMNT packs and there are certain things that now, over time, I've been able to find local replacements for most of them, but at the beginning, they didn't have as many things, so I was, like, bringing over more or my friends or family would bring stuff over also when they came. So, with availability, I would say it's gotten a lot better in even just the last five years. There're all these companies now that have supplements and all kinds of things and it's really popped up in the last few years. It's way more accessible.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Yeah. I think I was sharing with you when I was trying to mail you some Beautycounter stuff. I learned [chuckles] all about shipping. I literally went everywhere.

Vanessa Spina: It's so funny because I ship myself stuff all the time from my warehouse. I wonder what-- it's funny, but I'm so glad that you figured out in the end, even though you had to jump through so many hoops to send it to me.

Melanie Avalon: So that experience and then I mentioned him before recently, Mark Schatzker, who wrote The Dorito Effect, I was getting a signed copy of it. He lives in Canada and I was trying to get a signed copy of his book for a friend. I was trying to just send him money to reimburse him to Canada and that was a hassle. I literally went everywhere. I was like, "Why is this so hard?" This should not be this hard. But yeah, with the post office, they didn't even have Prague in the computer.

Vanessa Spina: That's so crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Just wasn't there.

Vanessa Spina: So funny, though.

Melanie Avalon: It's like okay, [chuckles] that's how we handle things.

Vanessa Spina: [unintelligible [00:27:20] this country, like what?

Melanie Avalon: It's like an ostrich putting its head in the sand. So, DHL was what ended up being the best option in case people are wondering, at least for me for international shipping.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. DHL, FedEx usually is great. UPS, it all comes here, [laughs] really, but it's gotten better and better. But I totally understand where you're coming from, Evie, because Evie, I know sometimes it's harder to find some of the products that you'll see online or you'll hear people using. And it's frustrating sometimes because sometimes you do find them. But for some reason, imported products are, like, two to three times as much as they normally would be. So that can be frustrating too but it's a really great question. Now, I think the traditional thinking with running is always like carb loading, etc. But I think there are certain sports where a low carb can really actually give you an advantage. And especially if you're doing like a marathon, anytime you're operating between 60% to 70% of your VO2 max, or you're doing that kind of aerobic activity where you're burning lots of fat, it's going to be advantageous to be a fat burner. So, you may have even felt that while you're running.

The biggest thing, I think, that trips people up can be the electrolytes. So, if you can find a good electrolyte supplement, Melanie and I love LMNT, and they have amazing flavors with the electrolyte packets as well. And that's something that I always take with us when we're doing any kind of like hiking or especially if it's going to be dry. And sometimes if I don't have access to that, I'll just sort of make my own electrolyte drink. And I'll do that with some salt and magnesium powder. And it's really the salt I think that's important, especially when it comes to doing endurance. If you're not eating as many carbs, it's going to be a little bit more of a challenge for you to retain electrolytes because your kidneys won't reabsorb as many electrolytes and so you'll sort of release more water and it can become harder to hold on to them. So, supplementing with electrolytes, I think, can be a big thing.

In terms of the foods, like I said, you could either go the carb route and eat lots of carbs and carb load before your races which some people do, but they tend to hit that wall once they run out of the glycogen stores in the liver and muscles. Whereas if you're a fat burner, it's possible to not hit that wall in the same way because you're not running out of glycogen like you're already primed to be fat fueled. I've actually never run a marathon and I don't know what the experience would be like, but I know that if you're doing intense activity, you definitely have to keep the electrolytes up in terms of what foods to eat or supplements. There's more and more protein bars and protein supplements and protein-type foods available here. I've seen them more and more. There's nothing really super special that I would recommend other than finding some local electrolytes. And I use LMNT, so I don't know what they would have potentially available in Europe. Maybe there's something similar. I don't think LMNT ships to Europe yet.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Vanessa Spina: There might be an electrolyte drink that does ship here or you can look up online different ways to make your own. It's pretty relatively easy to do and other than that, I can't think of any specific foods that would, like, whole foods or supplements that you would take to enhance running. I think just being adept at fat burning, being fat fueled can potentially give you an advantage if you are sort of in that heart rate zone. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, I got distracted. I was looking up where LMNT ships. It says they actually do ship to most countries. They have a list where they don't ship. Prague is not on that list, so it is possible that they ship there.

Vanessa Spina: I'm going to try to check out while you answer and see if it will ship to me here. I've never tried. I just usually get it when we're home. What are your thoughts on her second question?

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad that you brought attention to the electrolytes. I definitely agree. I as well do not have marathon running experience, so my apologies there. I agree with everything Vanessa was saying about how low-carb diet can work really well for a lot of distance running for the reasons she said about not hitting that wall. So, I understand about the want and the need to consume foods in real food form, which I totally love. So just to speak specifically, because you're talking about like joint health and stuff like that, so collagen, a lot of people do benefit from supplementing collagen. MD Logic Health has a great collagen that people can check out. If you don't want to take supplemental collagen, you could focus on whole food meat with a high glycine ratio. So gelatinous meats, if you're having chicken, like eating all of the whole chicken, so you get the meats around the tendons and all of that. Making bone broths or meat broths can be a good way to up that glycine ratio and get the collagen benefits without necessarily taking a collagen supplement.

And then as far as protein, yes, I'm totally down with whole foods form protein. If protein powders are not a way that you want to go, same with energy bars. But it does go back to just making sure that you're able to absorb and getting all the protein that you need. And some people struggle with that more than others and especially athletes probably have higher protein intake. So just making sure that you are getting what you need and if not, possibly supplementing accordingly. I'll make a brief plug because you're talking about your joints again. So, anything anti-inflammatory will be pretty beneficial for that. So, I really love my serrapeptase supplement, which was the supplement that I launched AvalonX with, just because it can be so anti-inflammatory and really help people with their joints.

It's a proteolytic enzyme, so when you take it in a fasted state, it goes into your body and it breaks down problematic protein buildups and can really help resolve inflammation and sort of be protective on that front. So that might be something to proactively take and then continually take. And then just like anti-inflammatory diet in general with the joints. So going back to that whole food protein, eating a lot of fish with a high omega-3 ratio can be something really great to focus on, low mercury omega-3 fish. So, I love The Better-- it used to be called Australias, now it's called The Better Fish Barramundi. You can get it at Whole Foods and Costco. I am obsessed with this fish. It's a lean whitefish, but it actually has the highest omega-3 ratio of any whitefish and it's tested to be free of mercury. I love that fish. It's a great protein to have. And then salmon, sardines, scallop, shrimp, things like that can be great on the protein front. Yeah, I think focusing on the anti-inflammatory diet sounds like the low carb will probably work well for you or is working well for you with the marathon and focusing on the electrolytes. Did it work, by the way, Vanessa, to ship?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it does ship here to Prague. So, if you want to order it and I know we both have links for LMNT as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so the link for this show is drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and that will get you whatever the current offer is. So, when you go to drinklmnt.com/Ifpodcast, you'll get a free gift with purchase, so you'll actually get a free element sample pack with any order. So that's really awesome. It includes all of their flavors to try. So again, that is drinklmnt.com/Ifpodcast. And then one last little piece about it. A podcast I was listening to recently, Vanessa, they were actually saying that BCAAs also could help with hydration, similar to the way electrolytes do. Have you heard that before?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't. I wonder what the mechanism of action would be.

Melanie Avalon: They were talking about it. It's the same-- [laughs] it's the same episode that I talked about recently with other-- I'm going to send you this episode and I'm dying to hear your thoughts and then maybe we can circle back on some of the points because it was interesting. It was an interview with Kion for their BCAA supplements. So, shall we answer another question?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, the next question is from Ben and the subject is, "Does chewing sugar free gum, like, extra ruin most of the benefits of intermittent fasting?" "Hey ladies, I love, love, love all three of your podcasts." I listen every day during my fasting to keep me motivated. I'm a 36-year-old man who has been intermittent fasting for three months. I've lost weight. I feel absolutely great overall. Still five pounds to lose, but not as worried about that since I feel great. I am curious though does chewing sugar free gum, like, extra completely ruin the benefits of intermittent fasting when eaten during the fasted state? I also count my calories and macros, so that may be the reason for my weight loss. I know intermittent fasting has helped me get rid of my hunger cravings and the eating window helps me to not snack all day and be able to stay within my daily/macros. But am I getting any other benefits, like autophagy, many other benefits that you'll talk about? I chew the gum to curb my appetite or cravings and I may have during the fasted state, which is from 7:00 PM to 1:00 PM the next day and it works great for that. I chew it both in the beginning of the fast as well as at the end. This is working for me, so I probably won't change it, but I'm just curious as to your thoughts on it. Thanks so much. Keep up your amazing work that is helping this farmer from Kentucky," Ben Winters.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, Ben. Well, just a few comments first about you, Ben personally, one I love when listeners give us a little snapshot of who they are. Like a farmer from Kentucky, I can like, you know, I get like this whole picture of Ben now.

Vanessa Spina: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: I love that also, Winters, best last name ever. That should be my last name. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I love the last name.

Melanie Avalon: I really love this question and it's something I've thought about a lot, especially being on this show, talking about intermittent fasting for so long, I know in my own personal journey and I'll be curious to hear about you as well, Vanessa. When I started fasting, I did chew all the gums. It was like training wheels. It was like a nice way for me to get used to the fasted state and sort of like Ben, I felt like it was really working for me, although it was bad. We had a conversation recently on the show about different artificial sweeteners and I would like== do you remember the dessert gums? Did you ever have those, the Dessert Delights or something? Vanessa, it was like Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Did you watch that movie growing up?

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Of course, yes.

Melanie Avalon: They had this like Extra Dessert Delights. They had a cinnamon roll and they had an apple pie and a strawberry shortcake and it literally tasted like you were eating that dessert. I mean, it was magical. It was like Wonka level and it was bad. I would go through like he said I think he used the word eat in this question. I felt like I was eating a whole pack and I would often get GI distress as well, which was a fun time. So, my thoughts on all of it are I'm like pausing in the ideal world. I don't think it's ideal. And I know for me, on the flipside of not chewing these gums and having these flavors during the fast, it is so much better for me, so much better. I also used the training wheels with coffee and tea, really making it really sweet and flavored. And it was kind of like extending the eating window into the fast and just making the fast a non-caloric version of the eating window in a way.

It did work for me. It did help me transition to fasting. So, I can't tell people don't do it because it worked for me. And I know it works for people. Long term, though, I feel much better again not being that way and actually experiencing the fast naturally. And I do have, so it sounds like for Ben it doesn't create more cravings and appetites. Or maybe it is maybe if you cut it out, you'll realize that you don't have any appetite or cravings while fasting. And maybe this is the thing that's actually keeping that present and as long as you're doing it's going to stay there. I might bet money [chuckles] on that. So as far as the actual, is it ruining the benefits of intermittent fasting?

Well, one, these foods or these gums, they actually do have calories oftentimes like they feel like they're zero calories. But when you're having like a whole pack, I think legally they can have a certain amount of calories and still label it as zero. So, it'll stay zero, but it might have a few. And then if you're having a whole pack that can actually add up. You are sending your body signals of eating something. So, it's kind of like mixed messages to your body, I do think, because people will say, that if you take in artificially sweetened things that it does just stop all the benefits of fasting. And I don't agree with that because if you're not taking in any-- I just said that maybe you are taking in some calories with it. But if you're not, I still think you will get benefits of the fast. It just might be harder.

I think for a lot of people, it will make their body more reluctant to sort of really tap into that fat burning state because it's constantly sort of waiting for what it perceives as the need for something sweet or sugar. I think it can still create a blood sugar roller coaster for a lot of people even if they've been fasted for a while. This would actually be a good chance to try something like a CGM. You could see, Ben, when you're having these cravings and when you chew the gum, what's actually happening with your blood sugar levels, that would be really cool to see. We love NutriSense, if you go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST you can get $30 off. As far as, autophagy, which he asked about and the other benefits-- well, first of all, autophagy, it's not this black and white on/off thing. And we also don't have a ton of information about the extent to which it ramps up on a timeline basis.

I think people make a lot of assumptions. They're like, "Oh, you're fasting. You have a lot of autophagy. You're not fasting. You don't have autophagy." And that's just not the case. You literally have autophagy going on 24/7. And it can get ramped up by certain things like fasting and exercise and calorie restriction so it's hard to know. I don't know, it's hard to know if there's an effect on autophagy from chewing gum or something like that. I would think it's still going on, but it's hard to know. My long takeaway for all of that rambling is that I think you're still getting benefits. I think for a lot of people, it's going to make it substantially harder, and they'll feel probably a lot better on the flipside. And you might find for you, Ben, you said that you still want to lose a few pounds. It might be that you could cut out this gum and keep everything the same and you might actually find that you lose the weight. That's very possible. It would be a fun thing to experiment with. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I agree with most of what you'd say. Yes, autophagy is occurring, like, every night as long as you are closing your eating window further enough away from bedtime to actually get a lot of that repair and restoration. But autophagy gets deeper at night and it can get really deep if you do an actual, like, just water only fast. And the research done on that in humans is measuring the autophagy genes and it seems to ramp up to significantly greater levels between 36 to 72 hours of pure water fasting. So that's like a whole different kind of fasting, in my opinion, than the daily intermittent fasting where you're getting-- I think I agree with you in the sense that you're getting greater cell turnover in that time, that you're not consuming food in that time that you are fasted.

A lot of the benefits that are talked about on this podcast and in the literature on just fasting and what happens, I think it occurs more so in the state of not stimulating insulin that much, but you probably can still get a small fraction of the benefits. But if your main goal, Ben, is weight loss and you're getting there, you're counting your macros as well, and your calories, and you're also finding intermittent fasting helps you to just stick to your calories and macros for the day, which a lot of people find it really supportive of, then I think you're doing great, and I really wouldn't worry about it too much. If you're in a situation where you're like, "Wow, I really want to spend some time ramping up autophagy, maybe doing a deeper cellular cleanse, mitophagy, getting all that stuff really going on. I would maybe do a longer, like an extended fast once a year or something like that for the purposes just of like autophagy, mitophagy, cellular renewal, anti-aging, etc.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it just in the day to day of intermittent fasting. Because like you said, Melanie, we just don't have enough information yet on what's really happening. But we know, okay, you're chewing gum, you're not eating protein, so you're not stimulating mTOR. You're probably still in that AMPK pathway of being in the fastest state of being in that catabolic state of breaking things down, tearing certain things down, repairing them, recycling some proteins, etc. But it's just hard to know exactly how much, like you were saying.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. It's interesting because he [chuckles] clearly really feels good with what he's doing. So, I think that's amazing and I love that he's fasting and getting benefits that he does perceive. He won't ever know, though, unless he cuts out the gum if there're even more benefits beyond that, you just won't know unless you try. I don't think you're ruining most of the benefits, but I think you'll get more benefits if you cut it out.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, perfect answer.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect answer, okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And when you submit the questions, feel free to insert your favorite emojis so we can see your personality.

Vanessa Spina: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: Please start putting your favorite emoji at the end so we can know. The show notes for this episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode326 and that will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: That was everything. It was so much fun. I absolutely love the questions and I'm excited to answer more in the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Well, have a fabulous night and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much, Melanie. Talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jul 09

Episode 325: Dr. Paul J. Arciero, Protein Pacing Diet, Vegetarianism, Metabolism, Caloric Restriction, Intermittent Fasting, Mindset, Antioxidants, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Protein Pacing Diet

Welcome to Episode 325 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% off InsideTracker’s new Ultimate Plan—complete with estradiol, progesterone, and TSH.

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% off InsideTracker’s new Ultimate Plan—complete with estradiol, progesterone, and TSH.

Dr. Paul's Background

the world of nutritional science

studying 7 day Adventists

Bioavailability of amino acids

protein pacing - bolus vs. distributed

combing intermittent fasting with protein pacing

protein before bed

the contrary schools of thought

autophagy provided amino acids

water fasting vs protein pacing + fasting

exogenous and endogenous antioxidants

caffeine intake

meal replacements vs whole foods

leptin levels and resistance

the microbiome & GI distress

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 325 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode number 325, and we have a special episode today. I am not just here with my fabulous cohost, Vanessa Spina, but we have a very special guest on the show. This is actually the first guest that Vanessa and I have had together. So, we are very excited. We're here with Dr. Paul Arciero. And so, here is the backstory leading up to this conversation. Vanessa had actually been reading and sharing Dr. Arciero's work for quite a while. She shared a study on her Instagram. It published back in December of 2022 called Intermittent fasting and protein pacing are superior to caloric restriction for weight and visceral fat loss. And she posted about this, was talking all about it. So, then I read it and dove deep into it. And so then, we're talking about it on this show, and I thought why not just reach out to the head researcher and see if maybe he would entertain some of our crazy questions?

First of all, just so excited about the study. And second of all, had quite a few questions about the setup and all of that. Dr. Arciero was so kind. He responded to our emails. He actually already went on Vanessa's show, the Optimal Protein Podcast, and he was open to coming on this show, which was fabulous. I didn't realize at the time his work expands way beyond the window that I had seen, because my first exposure was reading this one study. So, then I dived deep into, I mean, not all of his studies, because he has over 70 peer-reviewed publications. So, I didn't read all of them, but I read quite a few of them. And he also has an incredible book called The Protein Pacing Diet. I didn't know exactly what to expect when I started reading it. I figured it would be about protein pacing, but friends, it dives into so many things. So, the entire concept of human metabolism, specifically how protein relates to it, and all the nuances you could ever want to know about protein. Also, caloric restriction, intermittent fasting, the importance of diet quality, exercise.

Then beyond that, a lot of really powerful work on mindset, actually. I just loved it. It's really funny, Paul. I was reading it and sending Vanessa screenshots of the book because your vibe in the book is like the vibe of Vanessa and I. I don't know, we are into the-- It was just really beautiful. Your book is very beautiful and motivating and very high spirit. So, we're just so honored to have you here today. So, thank you so much for being here.

Paul J. Arciero: Wow, that was one of the best intros I've ever had, Melanie. Thank you. That was really cool. You brought a word to my Zen. Yeah, it's interesting. Research sometimes can be obviously very cold and unfamiliar to a lot of people, just because it's hard for a lot of people to relate to. Whenever they start to see statistics and numbers and science, they run. And so, I really appreciate those words. Those mean a lot to me, because I want to try to make science more comfortable and harmonic with everyone's life. I think there's such a disconnect with science and research, with people's habiting of this world. And so, yeah. No, that was awesome. That was wonderful. That's my goal. So, I appreciate the shoutout to my book. I'm interested to know. I wrote two books, The Protein Pacing Diet and then The PRISE Life. And The PRISE Life was the shorter version of The Protein Pacing Diet. So, I'm not sure which one you have your hands on.

Melanie Avalon: I read The Protein Pacing Diet. Which one did you do first?

Paul J. Arciero: That was the one, The Protein Pacing Diet. And then, The PRISE Life was just a revised version of it, but yeah. Well, thanks again for having me. It's always a joy for me to be able to share my research, because oftentimes as a scientist our research is only shared with likeminded scientists. [chuckles] It doesn't get into the eyes and ears and minds and souls of the world that needs it. And so, I'm really grateful for you having me on.

Melanie Avalon: We are grateful for you, because this is exactly, I think, what the world needs. You just said all of it just now. There's just so much fascinating information happening in the science world, and I think it can be often hard to bridge the gap between that world and all of the people not in that world. That's one reason I love podcasting, for example, is because we can do awesome interviews like this, and bring your work to our audience. I'll have to check out the new version of the book. And so, a little bit about your bio for listeners. So, we just learned this. Congratulations to Paul. So, he was/still is the Professor in the Department of Health and Human Physiological Sciences at Skidmore College. He actually just accepted a position as well at the University of Pittsburgh in the Department of Sports Medicine and Nutrition with tenure, which is super cool.

Like I said, you've had over 70 peer-reviewed publications on PubMed, cited over 6,765 times. Your research has been all over the place, BBC News, WebMD, the Today's Show, USA Today, Time, all the places. So, we are very, very honored to have you here. A question to start things off. So, like we were just talking about, you really bring the human perspective, and I like that you use that word, Zen, to everything that you're doing. So, growing up, did you always want to be a scientist? Yeah, what led you to what you're doing today?

Paul J. Arciero: That's a great question to start with because people that know me know that I was on the opposite end of a studious young boy and on his way to becoming a scientist. Yeah, I didn't fare too well in school. School was a really rough part of my life growing up. I wasn't a good student at all. I was actually asked to stay back in the third grade. So, I struggled with school, with learning. And so, what I did was I dove into my physical body, just because I was a decent athlete, and that seemed to allow me to find an identity as a young boy, because otherwise, I would have had literally nothing in terms of identifying as something worthwhile. And so, thank goodness that at least from a physical standpoint, I was able to-- So, as it turned out, I was good enough in college to get a full tennis scholarship. But then reality set in, once again when I was in college, and I ended up dropping out, just because-- Well, it was either me being asked to leave or me leaving on my own. And so, I ended up leaving and going over to Europe and playing some tennis, professional level tennis, and became very homesick.

I was 19 at the time. So, I tried my first try in college. Didn't go so well. And then when I was over there playing tennis, thinking that this was one way to help get myself back together, I just became extremely homesick and despite having some actually pretty good success. So, when I returned home, I knew there was only one thing I needed to go back to, and that was trying to see how well I could stay in school and see if something stuck this time. Fortunately, I was really into nutrition and fitness, because I wanted to become a better tennis player. When I did return back to college, I realized that those two things were actually majors in college, exercise physiology and nutrition. So, that just started my path. And so, it was really just born out of my own personal need to find an identity and so that's how my path to becoming a scientist in the field of nutrition and exercise physiology started.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's a very unconventional path, I feel. So, when you first got into that, because there're so many topics in the world of nutrition and there's so much controversy and different opinions, what has your experience been like in that world? Because you focus so much on the power of protein. Did it take a while to come to that thesis or have your thoughts oscillated a lot throughout your journey? Just wondering what that was all like.

Paul J. Arciero: It was actually quite interesting. So, when I was over in Europe, I was becoming much more aware of the connection between how I nourished my body and how I performed. And so, I started to take on some eating behaviors that I felt were more beneficial to my performance. One was just eating-- I started to eat less meat, believe it or not, and more plant-based foods. That seemed to help, but I don't know if it was truly that beneficial for me. So, when I did return back to college and university, I became a vegetarian, because I started reading the scientific literature. This was back in the early 1980s, mid 1980s. Most of the science back then published research on vegetarians showed that they weighed less, they had less risk for cardiovascular and metabolic disease, heart disease, and diabetes. And so, I said, "Yeah, this could be the way to do it."

So, by the time I graduated and started graduate school, I asked my professor at the time, my advisor, "Could I test vegetarians and to see what their metabolism was like, because it seemed to influence so much of their health?" That's what I did. I conducted my first study at Purdue University with Seventh-day Adventist, because they follow a very, somewhat, strict vegetarian diet. Because I was a vegetarian, I could relate to them. What I found from that study was fascinating. I fed both vegetarians, myself included, and non-vegetarians, a standardized meal. It was a liquid protein meal at the time. It was a company called Sustacal, and it was one of those just meal replacements that they used primarily in the healthcare setting, hospital setting for patients that needed high-quality nutrition. So, it wasn't the best in terms of high quality, but it had some protein.

What I found was very interesting. It was a dairy, animal-based protein. I wasn't paying attention to that necessarily. But what we found was that when the group of vegetarians, myself included, consumed that meal with slightly higher protein than a typical normal meal would have, they hung on to those calories, and they had a significantly lower postprandial thermogenic response. That's a fancy word for-- We burned less calories after we ate that meal. It was the same relative amount. So, everyone got the same relative amount based on their body weight. So, there was no difference in the quantity that people were consuming. Whereas when the omnivores consumed the meal, they were burning those calories much less efficiently. They were just expending. They had a much higher metabolic rate. So, it contradicted what our hypothesis was. We thought that, "Okay, these vegetarians weigh less, maybe they burn more calories after they eat." In fact, we found the opposite, they were actually burning much less.

So, what was the reason for that? What we ended up finding, based on some of the other data that we collected was probably due to them not being accustomed to consuming that much protein at a serving. And so, the body sensed this higher amount of protein in this meal challenge we gave them as a vegetarian and it decided to hold on to those calories, because it knew it was a very vital nutrient. We know that protein in Greek stands for proteios, means primary, vital. And so, as it turns out, because vegetarians in general consume less protein, especially high-quality protein, when they are faced with a meal that contains more protein and higher-quality protein, their body makes the decision to hold on to those calories, and not burn them, and to preserve those. And so, that was my first eye opening research experience early on in my career where I found that, "Wow, the quality of what we consume makes all the difference in the world."

In fact, much less of our health is determined by controlling or managing the total number of calories we consume. The vast majority of our health and our physical performance, cognitive is determined by the quality of the nutrients. That was, again, way before many people were paying attention to this concept of nutrient density and the quality of the food that we consume. Most people still are focusing on the quantity and working off that outdated energy in, energy out or calories in, calories out energy balance formula. It's just simply outdated and has been proven time and time again not to be the most important way of looking at nutrition. So, yeah, that was my intro.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, that's fascinating. Can I ask you some questions about that study?

Paul J. Arciero: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: So, how long was it? How many days?

Paul J. Arciero: That was what was so powerful. This was just an acute meal challenge. So, it was just a single meal challenge that we were providing to these vegetarians-- We called nonvegetarians, omnivores. So, we had them come in, measure their baseline metabolism, so we had an understanding of what their resting metabolism was, and then we fed them the meal challenge, and then we measured their metabolism and their thermic response for three hours after along with hormones. So, we measured their thyroid hormones, insulin, glucose. So, yeah, it was a fun study to be a part of.

Melanie Avalon: So, do you have any idea since then? Have you learned how long it would take them to adapt or habituate? Do you think if they had another meal, it would have the same effect?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I'm not aware of too many other studies that have converted [chuckles] vegetarians during a study into becoming an omnivore. It's hard to do. It's hard to break that. So, I'm not aware. I think it's a fairly acute response. I think the habituation from that or the acclimatizing to that higher-quality protein, it probably occurs-- Obviously, it occurs acutely, so very quickly that the body begins to hold on to those amino acids, because they realize how precious they are. And then how long does it take before? Maybe the body becomes, and I caution to use this word, but desensitized to it or maybe feels like, "Well, we've got sufficient amino acids now. We don't need to necessarily conserve those at the same level as what we were."

I don't know how long that would take. Yeah, it really depends on the person, their activity level, because your activity is going to determine the degree to which your body holds on and utilizes, makes bioavailable, those amino acids for recovery and muscle protein synthesis. So, I think a lot of it would have to do with how active the person is at the time that they're making that transition. But the good news is, I guess, I go back to the bottom-line takeaway of the good news is that our body is very responsive. And that if we are eating poorly, or perhaps not to the level that the body optimally needs nutrients, once it's exposed and once it has an opportunity to benefit from a high-quality nourishing meal, the body can respond very quickly. That's what we took away, that the body is extremely responsive to consuming high-quality nourishment, even if a person has not been eating really well for a period of time.

Melanie Avalon: I think when people hear protein, they don't think it can be stored per se. So, when you say stored, was it storing the amino acids in the muscles? How does it store that protein?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, so storage is probably not the ideal word, but I would use the word, the bioavailable, the net utilization of the amino acids just become more available into the amino acid pool. So, when we eat those high-quality sources of protein, when the body begins the process of breaking that protein down and making those amino acids available to the body, they're incorporated into the cells to allow for the various pathways and functions that protein provides, which is abundant. We have so many different uses of amino acids inside of our body, making enzymes, making body tissues, hormones, structures, and immune cells. So, I think that's what the protein was being utilized for, as opposed to perhaps being oxidized and not utilized as efficiently.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe this actually ties in really well to a similar concept, because that would be the concept of two populations receiving historically more protein or less protein. What about for people, because you have this protein pacing idea. What about the timing of protein? So, if you are having protein throughout the day, does that change the body's thermogenic or metabolic response to it compared to, if you're having it in concentrated meals or doing it with fasting, for example, and having all your protein at once, how does that affect the body's thermogenic and metabolic response?

Paul J. Arciero: So, there's some good data coming out of some of the labs around the world. I can think of two offhand in Canada, one, McMaster, and then some of the other work that's been done here in the States. What they've shown is that, when they provide protein in various manners and they've looked at it as a bolus feeding, so two larger feedings of protein versus providing it in a more concentrated form, but distributed more evenly throughout the day, they did a bolus of two challenges of protein. So, they gave the same amount of protein over the course of the day, and they either delivered it in two, four, or eight feedings. I think those are the numbers that they used. What they found was that there seems to be an optimal amount. So, in terms of the timing that you're describing, when it's administered in a way that body can optimally digest it, absorb it, transport it, metabolize, store and utilize, it seems to be in this feeding of roughly 4 hours apart. And so, that would be a recommendation for people to try to see if they can optimize during a feeding day if they're not undergoing a fasting to try to optimize their protein intake.

This is what we follow in our lab. We follow this protein pacing schedule of about every three and a half hours, but more optimally every four hours. That seems to be an ideal time where the body has sufficient focus of digesting and absorbing the amino acids from the protein, as opposed to concentrating it into this much more larger amount of protein, it's just harder for the body to digest it. So, that's what we know about-- And protein synthesis goes up. So, if you're looking at one of the functions of protein in the body, it is to increase tissue repair, tissue growth. So, we call that protein synthesis. What we found is, when you administer the protein in that more pacing approach, four hours, the body just seems to be more ideal at absorbing it. So, that's an important take home for people to consume that protein.

We know that following an overnight fast, the body is starting to transition into a greater protein breakdown state. So, there's always the balance. When we talk about, at least from the muscle standpoint, muscle protein balance, the body is always trying to maintain, in an ideal world, a state of muscle protein synthesis. So, always having slightly more recovery, tissue repair, and growth than we are having breakdown, because we know that as we age, breakdown of our body protein stores is occurring at an accelerated rate, we have a blunting of our body's ability to build new protein and repair. And so, in the morning, we're in a slightly higher muscle protein breakdown state. That's why it's so important to start the day with a high-quality serving of protein, especially on a day that you're coming off, for example, an intermittent fast. We can talk maybe more about what that means. But when we undergo an intermittent fast, our body is undergoing some really favorable cellular changes. And one of those is preparing the body for the reentry of high-quality nourishment.

So, we're actually creating an environment during an intermittent fast, where the body wants to supercharge its protein synthesis. I know that sounds a little bit unusual. Most people, when they think of an intermittent fast, the body is breaking itself down, it's removing old unwanted tissue and cells, it's undergoing this process of autophagy, kind of the house cleaning. And so, there's some really beneficial cellular responses. One of them is preparing the body to optimize protein synthesis. So, there's an ideal window of time that when you are coming off of an intermittent fast, when you provide the first reentry of high-quality nourishment, it should be amino acids. It should be protein. The highest quality protein that you can try to get your hands on, because that's going to be put to really good use in the body when we combine intermittent fasting with protein pacing in that way.

So, the goal is to, every four hours, have that high-quality feeding throughout the day on a normal feeding day, that's the ideal. And then when a person has intermittent fasted, however long they decide to do it, it could be a 16-hour window, some do with the 16:8 method, some do a 24-hour intermittent fast, some extend it a little bit longer. The important point here is that, when you do break that fast, you want the highest quality protein that you can consume.

Vanessa Spina: I was really glad that you brought up the pacing period of three hours to four hours, because that's just a question that we get so much. We were actually talking about it last night when we were recording, and we're well aware that there's anabolic window about 24 hours for people who are not professional athletes. But people are often curious like, you know, what that amount of time is. So, I'm really glad that you brought that up and clarified it. I really want to try the protein pacing approach. I'm planning on trying it as an experiment later this summer to do this. Having the high-quality protein every three hours to four hours throughout my eating window, and seeing what happens with it, and doing some body composition before and after. So, it'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and then something else I wanted to comment on. A lot of people often say that it's not good to eat multiple hours before bed. But in your protein pacing approach, you actually do recommend eating two hours before bed, is that correct?

Paul J. Arciero: That is correct. Yeah, that's so controversial.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] Would you like to expand on that?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. So, is breakfast as not being one of the most important meals of the day? Then we can maybe talk about that, but the nighttime feeding is actually crucial. There's such a difference. I think that people need to understand that, again, it's less about the quantity, although that's important, you don't want to over consume later on the day. We call it the back end of eating, you want to do more front loading of your calories if possible. But definitely for athletes and people that have had more of a challenging window during the day to consume the nutrients. So often, people either get busy or they make the conscious decision to not eat too much during the day, and then unfortunately at night, sometimes, the floodgates open and they end up over consuming. Those two overconsumed nutrients are oftentimes simple carbohydrates and some fat. And so, that combination is not ideal.

So, at night, when you are trying to replenish the body with optimal nourishment, carbohydrates and fats together are not the ideal combination. We have lots of scientific proof to show that those two things are going to very, very quickly favor energy storage inside your body. Unfortunately, not in the form of healthy lean muscle mass, which is what the goal is during that overnight time period, because you have a hormonal environment that is very favorable to allowing the body to recover, repair, and rejuvenate during those nighttime hours. You want to provide the optimal nourishment and that comes in the form of amino acids of high-quality protein.

So, yeah, that two-hour eating window, before you go to bed, it does not have to be high calorie. It should optimally be high-quality protein, and then perhaps a little bit of healthy fat, because that will help keep the insulin level down, a little bit lower than it would be if you were to consume protein and a more simple carb or some optimal high-quality protein and some complex carbohydrates, that combination or a combination of all three, but definitely the protein. The amount seems to be somewhere between 20 g to 40 g. So, people often ask, "Oh, that seems like so much. How many calories is that?" Well, it's going to be somewhere between 80 calories and 160 calories of protein. Now, 40 does seem like a lot, but again, if you're a really intense high energy output athlete, that's not that much for those types of individuals that need to replenish, and rebuild, and restore muscle tissue, but somewhere within that range of 20 to 40 g of protein.

And then, like I said, the balance of the remaining calories could be in the form of healthy fat, whether it's avocado or nuts and seeds. Those would be some of the foods. And then some fresh fruit, perhaps blueberries, somewhat on the lower sugar side, but high antioxidant because of the favorable anti-inflammatory benefits you'll get from dark colored fruits. That could beneficial as well. So, that would be the recommendation. Yeah, that's actually a really important feeding, because not catching that window or benefiting from that feeding window at night for certain people. Here's what's interesting, Vanessa and Melanie. When we make this recommendation to people who want weight loss, that's one of the most important feedings that they end up doing. I know it sounds contrary, but yeah, for weight loss and for muscle mass maintenance and growth, that feeding is equally important for both of those groups. They're actually on opposite ends of the spectrum.

You have one group that's excess body weight and body fat and they're having that high-quality protein just before bed and benefiting from it tremendously. The data that we have from our lab that we incorporate that as really a required component to their nutrition, dietary regimen is a game changer in terms of the benefit that they have in their body composition, in terms of muscle mass maintenance and fat loss that occurs. And then we know from an athletic standpoint, that's also extremely beneficial to helping increase muscle mass.

Vanessa Spina: It's really, really interesting, because I've come across it before for athletes who are especially physique competitors to have a protein feed before bed helps with preventing any muscle protein breakdown at night. But most of the researchers that I've spoken to say, "You got to make sure to close that eating window as early in the day as possible, especially because of leptin docking around midnight. Like, you don't want to have high insulin competing with leptin." So, that's fascinating that that's what you found in your lab.

Paul J. Arciero: [chuckles] Yes. But I think the key, and I'm glad you pointed it out, we try to minimize the insulin spike when we do deliver that protein. And so, with weight loss, we generally recommend the protein with a small fat combination, a fat feeding whether it's nuts or some coconut or avocado, something that again helps kind of counter that insulin release we have found beneficial.

Melanie Avalon: And then, interestingly, to continue the controversy, it was so layered, because when it comes to the controversy with breakfast so, first of all, we have the very intense pro breakfast movement. Then we have the response, especially in the fasting community, trying to point out all of the potential issues with the breakfast funded studies. But then you point out the issues with the critique of pointing out the issues of the breakfast studies. So, where do you land on breakfast?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, so during fasting, obviously, you are not providing any nourishment during that time period. But I think that has to be done very infrequently. And again, because we've already discussed that when you are waking up in the morning after a fast, your body's not in an ideal environment for protein synthesis. It's actually starting to transition into a greater state of protein breakdown. But you're having less protein synthesis is what essentially is happening. That's not ideal, particularly for weight loss. So, let's just talk about it for weight loss. So, we really recommend with our study participants that it's most important that you start the day as soon as possible upon waking with a high-quality serving of protein, combined again with very, very high-quality nourishment of lower glycemic index carbohydrates and healthy forms of fat coming in.

But that is the ideal environment to transition immediately over into a greater state of protein synthesis. That's what's key, because they're doing it at the same time they're consuming less calories. So, they're on a lower calorie intake. But they need to safeguard against any further increase in muscle protein breakdown and decrease of muscle protein synthesis. So, that early morning feeding is paramount for them and for their success. It's actually essential for their satiation. Otherwise, they run the risk of becoming much too hungry, and making the wrong food choice. So, in our study participants, one of the main reasons we've had this success that we have is because we place such a very focused and heavy emphasis on that early morning feeding of high-quality protein. It's just absolutely essential.

By the way, it's important to point out that much of our research we do when we're dealing with weight loss in people, we are controlling further exercise. So, some of our studies, not all of them, because we do place a heavy emphasis on the lifestyle approach incorporating exercise, as you know through the PRISE protocol that I created. But for many people, we actually much prefer that we monitor and control and limit their exercise, because that can increase feeding behaviors, and we really want to focus on their nutrition only. And so, we're making this recommendation for them to eat first thing in the morning knowing that we're not recommending that they engage in any level of strenuous exercise other than normal walking and things like that.

So, yeah, that early morning feeding. And I think that's where the controversy has been, that much of the backlash against breakfast not being as beneficial or healthy or optimal for people's overall health is because they've missed the target. Again, they have not had their eye toward the nutrient that is the most essential and that's protein. They've just focused on a typical breakfast feeding, which is usually higher carbohydrate. And that's been why some of the data points to breakfast not being beneficial. And so, we deemphasize obviously the carbohydrate aspect and emphasize the protein. But yeah, it's super, super important. And it's particularly important that breakfast feeding after they come off, we do what's called a one day, 24-hour or two-day fast, 24, 48, it actually is a little bit longer than that in some cases, because we recommend on a one day that they hold off on that feeding that evening.

So, if they've gone from stopping eating the day before, let's say at 8 o'clock, and then they fast the entire day the next day, instead of them resuming eating at 8 o'clock the next night, we will often have them abstain from consuming their first meal until the following morning. So, they're actually doing the equivalent of a 36-hour fast. And then the ones that are doing a two-day are actually extending it to the following morning of the following day. So, it would be a 60-hour fast, which is a little bit longer. We don't have them abstain completely as Vanessa and I talked about in our previous podcast. We have them consume a very high-quality nutrient dense, adaptogen, antioxidant beverages, and some collagen protein as well during the intermittent fast, but it's very, very low calorie. But it's administered again on that pacing schedule of every four hours. But it's very low nutrition, so it's only about 100 calories each of those feedings. So, over the course of a day, it's equivalent of about 400 calories, which is not a lot to trigger any significant disruption in the benefits of the fasting that we're having them do.

So, yeah, I would say in conclusion, breakfast is super important whether you're looking to lose body fat and change your body composition favorably by losing body fat, particularly abdominal visceral fat, and maintaining and even increasing your lean body mass. And that goes hand in hand with the evening feeding as well. I think I shared that. Our 2013 Obesity Journal study showed that group of individuals, when they followed this protein pacing and calorie restricted regimen, they lost significant amounts of weight, but they actually were able to increase, although slightly but significantly, their lean body mass. So, yeah, it definitely makes a difference.

Melanie Avalon: I have some questions about the fasting. Before that, I have one really random question that I have been thinking about for so long. I don't know, if you have any thoughts or know the answer to this. The autophagy that occurs during fasting, does it create any measurable amount of "protein that we could measure." For people who are fasting, do they maybe need slightly less protein in their eating window because they're freeing up amino acids from autophagy while fasting?

Paul J. Arciero: I don't know if they would need less. It would make sense that during that process, the body is shuttling some amino acids into the free pool. But I don't know if less would be. So, when they resume feeding, is that what you're thinking?

Melanie Avalon: So, compared to eating protein all throughout the day, compared to if you're fasting and you have autophagy, are you freeing up, recycling getting more aminos?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I would caution about over providing. So, you probably wouldn't need more during that fasting time period. We do provide a little bit during the actual fasting window, but like I said, in very small amounts. We don't do it at every one of the four feedings. We only do it at one, maybe two of them where we'll provide, have them consume a little bit of additional protein. Usually, like I said, in the form of collagen or bone broth is the form that we use. Yeah, I don't know how much difference it makes in their overall protein balance and protein synthesis. Maybe it just helps provide that little bit extra to allow for a halting of any additional amount of protein breakdown.

Melanie Avalon: That's also what I would wonder about. Because I know a lot of our listeners and me included, do fast daily? So, I fast every day completely and then just eat in the evening. It works really well for me. I've been able to maintain and even build muscle doing that. Vanessa and I were talking about this yesterday. I'm like, "Well, when I get older, is it going to be a problem?" So, yeah, I'm very haunted by these questions.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, no and they're really good ones to ask. Yeah, so, let me just ask I'm curious how many people turn around and ask the host's questions. But when you do your fast, are they more than a 16-hour? It sounds like it is, because you're only eating within a very small window.

Melanie Avalon: I typically eat for about four hours or five hours in the evening. Very high protein, like pounds and pounds of protein and blueberries. [laughs]

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, that's great. It sounds like you're exercising, you're doing some resistance exercise.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I wear weights during the day around. I do a lot of EMSculpt actually. Are you familiar with that?

Paul J. Arciero: I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with the specifics of it.

Melanie Avalon: It's a machine that does tons of muscle contractions more than you could ever do consciously.

Paul J. Arciero: So, a little bit like e-stim?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm actually interviewing Terry Wahls this week as well. She talks about e-stim all the time. So, I've been looking at e-stim a lot. Yeah, similar to that. So, yes, I've been able to build muscle with that and fasting. I haven't broken my fasting pattern. Like I said, I do consume a very large amount of protein. So, with your fasting, because I know we're going to get a lot of questions about this, how do we know what enzymatic processes, and characteristics, and benefits of fasting apply to a person on a completely strict non-caloric fast compared to a fast where there is a small amount of calories? It sounds a little bit similar to Valter Longo's fasting mimicking diet. We've had him on the show a few times. Although your version-- because I was thinking about it. Because his version, the focus is low protein. That's the focus. Your version seems to sound like the focus is on higher protein, but low calorie, is that correct, while fasting?

Paul J. Arciero: You know what, it absolutely is. Yeah, Valter and David Sinclair, although he takes a slightly different approach with his fasting. Again, they're both lower protein. We just haven't found the same degree of success overall. Again, we're looking at it very broadly in the approach that we take with our model of intermittent fasting and protein pacing. We're not so concerned with-- I don't know, how do I want to say this without coming across as being too negative on their approach, but we're looking at it from an overall physical, cognitive and performance health outcome. And so, yeah, I think for body composition, we just believe-- Again, I could cite our last obesity study that you both had read, and Vanessa had come across and that you both had blogged about. That was a good example.

We had two groups. One was not following the intermittent fasting, but they were calorically restricting, and it was with lower protein. They just did not have nearly the same benefit. So, from an overall perspective, from a body composition, hormonal, cardiovascular-- So, it's hard to justify the lowering of the protein during the normal dietary eating window, feeding window without being able to counterbalance that protein breakdown that would be occurring as you come off that fast.

Melanie Avalon: So, here's a question, because I know Longo has said that, ideally people would just do a water fast, but he found it was too hard for people. So, that's why he created the fasting mimicking diet. It sounds like for you, although I'll ask you, if people did your approach with just water fasting, would you think that would have negative effects?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I do. I gave this analogy earlier that if it's only water, I struggle with that, just because I give the analogy that when we are undergoing a fast and it's only water, does it truly allow the body to counter the toxins, for example, that are being released because that's what's happening. Does it truly help facilitate and augment the old unwanted cells that the body is trying to dispose of and breakdown? Again, just speaking specific to our data, what we have found is that when you can help this autophagy, and mitophagy, and the whole process that's occurring during that fast, and as much as possible help support the protein synthesis that you want to optimize coming off of the fast, providing the body some additional support with the antioxidants and some of the adaptogens.

I know Sinclair talks about this a lot in his research, being able to provide some of these nutrients that the body definitely benefits from a gene expression standpoint and at an enzyme level as well that it just seems that during that intermittent fasting period, especially the longer you go with it. So, I guess, if it was a shorter window, maybe less than 20 hours, 18 hours. Some of the Mattson's work and de Cabo. If it's less than that time period and you're not quite into that ketosis state and water perhaps is sufficient. But I think if you're extending beyond that, and that's the model that we use, again, as I mentioned, our fasting window is longer. I think having those additional very low calorie but very nutrient dense antioxidants and adaptogens, I think, play a critical role in helping the body facilitate that process of autophagy and helping for the removal of some of those things, some of those toxic substances.

Melanie Avalon: Have you tested just the noncaloric antioxidant supplementation or is it always with the snacking aspect as well?

Paul J. Arciero: So, we've only used a caloric restriction model. So, where they're just paying attention to a daily caloric restriction and then this nutritionally fasted intermittent fast. Yeah, so, we will support it with these. Yeah, I hesitate to use the word snacking, although--

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Paul J. Arciero: No, it is right, because they are consuming that very small amount. In some cases, those adaptogens and antioxidants that they're consuming, it's not quite even 100 calories. In some cases, for some of them, it's down as low as 20 calories to 40 calories over a four-hour window. So, that's really negligible. But yeah, it's not standard across the board that they're all taking in 100 calories at each of those feedings every four hours. In some cases, it's as low as 20 calories to 40 calories. But yeah, no, that's a really good point. Doing that comparison where we're having that intermittent fast and matching calories over the course of a full day, I think would be a next study to clearly delineate what is the difference in terms of the body composition changes, the hormonal, metabolic, cardiovascular, even some of the mood state benefits that we have shown as well to a complete water noncaloric fast to this very low calorie, nutritionally supported fast.

Melanie Avalon: It would be awesome to see that for two camps, like, people who are doing fasting less, like you were saying, maybe 18 hours or 20 hours and then the extended version. That would be exciting.

Paul J. Arciero: It would be. Because again, there're two camps on that. If you look at some of the-- I know Mattson and de Cabo, they speak to that longer fast period as being beneficial and others do as well, and others have found success with the shorter window.

Melanie Avalon: Is there the potential that exogenous antioxidants would downregulate the body's endogenous antioxidant production?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I do. And we have evidence to support that. At those higher concentrated amounts, there very likely would-be a downregulation of the body's endogenous. But I think, again, although we're providing this nutrient dense source of these antioxidants and adaptogens, they're far below what you would find in a normal supplemented antioxidant product where it's more of a daily serving. So, when you think about some of the antioxidants that are commercially available and sold, they're usually in these very highly concentrated sources that you would take once during the day or maybe twice. But they would be very, very concentrated to allow for that absorption to occur over the course of a day. Whereas what we're providing in this liquid form is much more diluted and not nearly at the same concentration level. So, again, unlikely that it would create that downregulation that it would normally occur that we find when people are supplementing with those much higher concentrations.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, because I feel like we dove straight deep into the details, and Vanessa and I have talked about this so much that I forget that a lot of the listeners, this is their first-time hearing about this study. So, just to recap the findings of the study, what were the actual findings with-- You already said this, but I just want to draw more attention to it, with the weight loss, was it around the same calories that both groups ate?

Paul J. Arciero: Yes. So, great question. In our most recent publication, we provided, on average, the women about 1,200 calories over the course of a week-- Sorry, over the course of a day, although that changed slightly depending upon whether they were intermittent fasting for one day or two days, and the caloric restriction group, the same. They were consuming, the women about 1,200 calories, men we bumped up a little bit higher. And again, it was based on body weight differences between the men and the women. Men were at about 1,500 calories. Again, I'm so glad you asked that question, because it's a really important one to focus on, despite having identical calorie intakes over the course of the measurement period. In fact, I'm looking at the data right here. The energy intake was actually slightly higher in the intermittent fasting groups compared to the caloric restriction groups. So, that's telling that here they were consuming even slightly more calories, but they ended up losing significantly more body weight, significantly more fat weight. They reduced their waist circumference significantly more.

So, yeah, despite having slightly higher intakes, the intermittent fasting protein pacing groups lost more weight, lost more body fat, more visceral fat. They were able to maintain their lean body mass to a greater degree than the caloric restriction group. So, I don't think there's any controversy or disagreement that all calories are not the same, obviously. And even how we consume them makes a big difference, because our data shows very convincingly that when these two groups of people were able to change it up, it was almost a doubling of weight loss, a doubling of body fat, a doubling of visceral fat. They had a significant reduction in their desire to eat that dropped significantly. So, yeah, those are really important takeaways.

Vanessa Spina: I love that you recapped the findings on the study for everyone, for listeners, who haven't been talking about it as much as you and I have. It's really, really helpful. And I know that it was intentional that the calories would be equated, but it really stood out to me that the one group ended up eating more and still losing more, which is one of the amazing features of intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely. Okay, some other really quick rabbit hole tangent questions from some of your other studies or actually in your book as well. I was wondering if you could talk very briefly. There's something that Vanessa and I are a little bit fans of and that's being smart and using caffeine to your advantage. You had a cool section in your book on your thoughts on caffeine. What are your thoughts on caffeine?

Paul J. Arciero: [laughs] Yeah, so that was an interesting one too. But early on in my career, I was not a caffeine drinker and I had read a lot about the benefits of caffeine. Sometimes, the not so benefits, sometimes the detriments of caffeine. So, we don't necessarily control it to any great degree although we do control. We do ask them to report caffeine intake. It is a very powerful central nervous system and peripheral nervous system stimulant. So, it activates our central nervous system and our peripheral nervous system in the sense that from a metabolic standpoint, it increases the release of stored body fat. We call that lipolysis. So, it just breaks down our lipid stores, which are our body fat stores into our bloodstream. It makes the fatty acids, that's the equivalent of amino acids to protein, fatty acids to fat. It makes these subunits of our lipid stores available to cells to use as energy to burn. So, caffeine, to a very large degree, helps mobilize our body fat stores.

Here's where it gets a little bit interesting. When you consume caffeine, there are some differences between old and young people. And so, I was able to study that extensively early on in my career, and I was able to show that younger, more fit, and active people have an easier ability to mobilize their stored body fat into their bloodstream to be accessed and used as an energy source in their cells, primarily their muscle cells. Whereas we get older, we lose that ability with one caveat, the more active we stay, the more fit we stay. So, here's a plug for--

I know we haven't talked much about exercise or physical activity, but the more we can engage our body in movement as we're drinking this caffeine, especially as we get older, the more likely we are to maintain the benefits of the caffeine to release it from our fat stores. That's a really good indication of health. Our body's ability to release fat from its storage depot is an indication of health. We want to be able to do that. It's when we have become resistant to mobilizing our body fat into our blood to be circulating it to the muscle cells and other cells that would break it down and use it as an energy source is a sign of disease. And so, caffeine is really helpful for some people.

I'm not a caffeine drinker, although I understand the benefits from it. So, what we do in our research in our lab is we encourage a very strategic application of caffeine intake. We recommend that people consume it earlier on in the day is the ideal time to do it. If you are someone who does drink caffeine or consume caffeine, because then you will benefit from the rest of the day being active, and moving, and allowing for your body to use that storage release of fat into the body. So, earlier in the day, caffeine is ideal for people. It has some proven health benefits. We know that caffeine has some antioxidants or at least coffee does and tea that contain caffeine, chocolate, dark chocolate especially, 70% or more above of cacao. So, you have the added benefit of the caffeine in those products of coffee, tea, and chocolate providing some benefit to release the fat into the blood to be used as energy, and then also to provide some additional antioxidants-- naturally occurring antioxidants and levels that the body can benefit from.

So, yeah, I'm favorable to it, especially if people can tolerate it, but it's not for everybody. Sometimes, people are sensitive to the caffeine in terms of heart palpitations, irritability, insomnia, which happen also to be the same things that people experience when they have withdrawal from caffeine. So, it can be a double-edged sword. But I think for a lot of people who can tolerate it and enjoy it, just making sure that they're consuming it earlier on in the day is ideal, so that it doesn't interfere with resting and sleep.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, I think because when it comes to the whole caffeine world or even fat burner supplement world, which a lot of those are really crazy, and I wouldn't put them in my mouth, but I think people see it and they think, "Oh, well, there's no magic pill to burn fat," which is true. But if there are compounds which unlock the ability to burn fat, I think that's huge. So, being smart about it sounds like the way to go.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I think we definitely don't have an underemphasis on caffeine. We have plenty of it available at our disposal anytime we want. So, yeah, if anything we have to be a little bit more cautious about overconsuming it. So, yeah, that equivalent of one cup to two cups a day is a safe recommendation as long as it's done earlier on in the day, it can be of benefit to people.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. And then another question I'm dying to ask you. You have a fascinating study. I know I had the title here, but it was looking at thermogenic response to a processed type of diet, but a nutritionally rich one compared to whole foods and actually finding a higher thermogenic effect with the supplemental form. What were your findings with that? That was really surprising to me.

Paul J. Arciero: That was. That was a fascinating study. I think if it was the one that you're referring to, it's the postprandial thermic response to unprocessed whole food meal.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I found it. Yeah, Lower Postprandial Thermogenic Response to an Unprocessed Whole Food Meal Compared to an Iso-Energetic/Macronutrient Meal Replacement in Young Women, August 2020.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. This was a really interesting study. We wanted to see-- We fed these two different breakfast meals. So, there's a lot of controversy over meal replacements. We wanted to somewhat dispel that because there's different processing that takes place with more traditional processed foods that are highly refined and not necessarily nutritionally engineered. They're looking to provide palatable food, high simple sugars, high refined carbohydrate, not very healthy from a perspective of nourishment, nutrient density. And so, we sought to change that. What we did was we took a group of women, we fed them two identical meals, so they ate pretty much the same thing, about half the number of calories in the meal, about 500 calories with carbohydrates, 26% fat, 24% protein. So, it was a relatively balanced if you want to use that much carbohydrate. We generally don't recommend carbohydrate intake that high. We're more on the side of a lower carbohydrate. Not quite to the level of ketogenic, but in some cases, we advocate for a much higher fat ratio compared to that level. But we were providing more of a typical meal.

And so, we gave a whole food meal or a meal replacement. What we found, given the same number of calories, same macronutrient distribution, the meal replacement, what we call nutritionally engineered meal, resulted in a much higher thermic response. So, they burned much more of their calories similar to what we found, actually interestingly enough with the vegetarian study that I described at the beginning. And so, this meal replacement just jacked up their calorie expenditure, energy expenditure, almost double compared to the group that was eating the whole food meal.

So, it's one of those conclusions and I have to be careful because I am a strong whole food proponent that I think sometimes we compartmentalize nutritionally engineered foods as being bad because they're processed. We can drink them out of a powdered container or already ready to drink mixed meal. I'm not saying all of them are necessarily good or bad, but some of them clearly can provide a nutritious meal replacement, especially if they have been formulated in a really smart way and beneficial way in terms of the ingredients that they use. And so, yeah, I think it was just important to highlight that.

Melanie Avalon: I had never seen that before. All the studies I had read before on that topic were finding the opposite. But like you said, I guess, there's a key difference in the formulation of those products.

Paul J. Arciero: They do range. And that happened despite any differences in hunger, satiety, blood glucose. So, that was interesting.

Melanie Avalon: What were you expecting to find?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. Because of the composition of the meal, one obviously being a liquid and the other one being a whole food, yeah, I think we were thinking that there might be a difference in the blood glucose response, the satiety, because of, again, the administration of how the meal was provided. And so, that was a little bit in opposition of what we were thinking, that this liquid meal based on what most people would think, you would have this very high, perhaps, maybe glucose response, maybe the body wouldn't undergo as much digestion because it's already in a liquid form. And so, the fact that we found this higher thermic response was unusual.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe one last thing we could touch on, because I think it was the most recent publication I could find from you, but it was an editorial. How does exercise modify the course of Alzheimer's disease? It was really, really fascinating. But one thing I wanted to ask you about specifically was, you actually had a paragraph about the role of leptin in Alzheimer's. I was wondering what your thoughts are on that because leptin is a hormone that we talk about a lot on this show and how it's affected by things like diet and fasting and all the things. So, do you have thoughts on that?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. Well, as I say in that editorial, that's interesting that you found that one. That's been a hot topic for people lately, because leptin has those dual roles inside the body in one way. I don't know how you've talked about it on your podcast, but it's similar in how our body also deals with insulin. Insulin is obviously extremely important as is leptin in helping regulate our blood sugar insulin, leptin helping regulate our energy stores and our arcuate nucleus, and hypothalamus in terms of feeding and sending signals to the brain in terms of feeding and satiety. But I think it can get out of whack and we can become obviously leptin resistant. But we also know that, when leptin does get up too high, it has that inflammatory response. And so, we just have to be careful about that.

So, I talk about how leptin serves this dual role as this hormone in terms of how it helps mediate and regulate various endocrine and metabolic pathways, particularly around our energy storage. And then it's also a cytokine, which augments this inflammatory role. And so, we've shown, at least for as we age, and I'm talking about as we get into older age, lower leptin concentrations are actually associated with this increased risk in progression of Alzheimer's disease and related dementias. So, as much as we want to regulate leptin, if it gets too low, that's not healthy. But we know that when we have leptin out of control and it gets too high, it can become very pro-inflammatory and that's not beneficial.

So, we need to, again, undergo lifestyle strategies that provide the crosstalk between our energy stores, our body energy stores, particularly our adipose tissue and our central nervous system in a way that the communication is uninhibited. It's very sensitized. It's occurring in a very fluid, harmonic way. I think we do so many things to disrupt that communication signaling. We oftentimes have leptin circulating at too high levels, much like we do insulin. When leptin is circulating excessively, as it is too often in too many people, we just lose that sensitivity. We lose that communication pathway operating at the level that it should. We know that that creates a very pro-inflammatory state. It's not good for the brain. It's not good for the blood vessels of the body. It's not good for anything in the body.

So, what we have shown is that when our study participants undergo protein pacing and intermittent fasting, their leptin levels drop drastically from the very excessive levels that they're at. That's a very favorable response. It's not like they're dropping into these very dangerous low levels, where it would be implicated, perhaps, in this progression that we talked about with Alzheimer's when levels get too low. But a lot of times, that's associated with low energy stores when people are malnourished. So, there're other factors going on when that leptin gets down that too low. But if we can keep leptin communicating with the brain at a level that's manageable within the blood, so that it's not creating this pro-inflammatory state, it's not being dysregulated in its communication pathway with the brain, it's actually serving an instrumental role.

So, the good news is that we were able to document this really significant drop. In fact, in one of the studies that I sent to both of you, one of our first intermittent fasting protein pacing papers, we showed a 70% drop in leptin. And that was despite having other very favorable changes in the inflammatory state of the participants and cardiovascularly, the cardiovascular system improved drastically. We had much greater return times. We had very favorable changes in pulse wave velocity and augmentation index. So, we demonstrated that the arteries, the blood vessels, the vessels that manage our blood flow coming from the heart, all changed in a really favorable way. They got much more elastic and responsive at the same time these changes were happening in leptin.

So, yeah, leptin is a powerful, powerful hormone and plays a critical role in so many areas of the body. I think we just sometimes assume that it's only regulating our energy stores. That's not true. It's super important in general inflammation in our periphery, but also cognitively central nervous system wise.

Vanessa Spina: Just to circle back to the beginning, I know that one of the strategies for lowering leptin levels when they're too high is having a protein prioritized breakfast. So, I love that we can circle back to that. Now, one thing I wanted to make sure that we did touch on with you, when you were on the Optimal Protein podcast, you mentioned that you have an incredible amount of data that you collected on the gut microbiome. I wanted to make sure that we got to chat about that a little bit. That's definitely a topic that our listeners, and Melanie, and myself are fascinated by as well.

Paul J. Arciero: Vanessa, thanks for pointing that out. We have so much great data. I'm sorry that I can't share it all with you. Ah, it's heartbreaking. What we do know is that we've had some extremely favorable changes in the gut microbiome when people follow the intermittent fasting protein pacing compared to the calorie restriction. I know without having the no calorie--noncaloric fasting, we can't talk about that. I think that's a great next study. But at least from our model of the intermittent nutritional fasting and protein pacing compared to the caloric restriction, the diversity of the gut microbiome has changed extremely favorably. And that data will hopefully be coming out very soon. But I can just put that statement out that we have some very favorable changes.

The other thing that sometimes is not as emphasized, and I think we touched on this very briefly. But the self-reported gut, we call it the gut disturbance index. When people comment on their gut health just based on how they feel, "Oh, I have stomach issues. Oh, my stomach doesn't deal well when I eat that, or I'm having some GI upset and disturbance," people talk about it and refer to it a lot. But actually, being able to document this, there's not a lot of data right now that's out there that is examining how different dietary regimens impact our GI, at least in this case, the self-reported GI disturbance. What we were able to show in as little as four weeks and here's what I'm bringing this up for is because in as little as four weeks, we can manifest significant improvement in the GI response that people feel. We were able to show that in the four-week study that we published in the Frontiers in Nutrition, we were able to show gastrointestinal symptoms reduced significantly in people that were following a two-day intermittent fast compared to a one day. So, there's a little plug for people that do want to experiment with fasting a little bit longer. And that makes, I guess, sense too, because you're giving the gut a little bit of a longer time to rest.

Yes, but when we compared it to the group that was calorically restricting, so they were reducing their intake as well. As I already mentioned, they actually, over the course of the study period, were actually consuming slightly less on a weekly basis than the other group. We again showed that GI disturbance went down significantly in the intermittent fasting group, even though they were consuming slightly more calories over the course of a week. So, there was something really staying with that intermittent fasting. Something was really happening over the long haul in affecting a positive change in their GI disturbance symptoms. So, that's worth noting. There's something very unique and beneficial, not just happening within the gut microbiome that's changing very favorable with the diversity of the gut microbiome. So, the microflora, the different genus strains and things like that that were occurring. It was improving significantly. But the actual symptoms that people experienced were reducing significantly. So, yeah, another massive and I hope really valuable and important piece of scientific proof that, yeah, this intermittent fasting is real, and it definitely helps both within and in our heads in terms of symptoms.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting. Do you know when you'll be publishing that work?

Paul J. Arciero: Well, it's in the pipeline. And so, we haven't officially received an acceptance yet for it. So, we have to hold off until we get that. I'm hoping maybe, let's see, we're in June. This fall and I would be great to circle back with you and share that with you.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, we'll have to have you back and talk about that, and maybe have some listener Q&A specifically for you if you're open to it. That'd be amazing.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, sure.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely so amazing. I know, Vanessa and I both were just so grateful for everything that you are doing. You're just doing so much incredible work about topics that we personally are obsessed with, but that we see affecting so many people's lives. I really, really appreciate the humanity that you bring to all of it. You've just made it so approachable and understandable. Like I said, for listeners, definitely check out Dr. Arciero's books, because they are fascinating and also super motivational. They're very empowering. So, we just really can't thank you enough for everything that you're doing.

Paul J. Arciero: Thank you both for having me. And thank you for the work that you're doing. Melanie. I'm really grateful that you provide this platform to share this information with people. So, thanks for having me.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well--

Vanessa Spina: It was really wonderful to get to have this follow-up discussion with you.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it was amazing. I would love to have a debate episode, have you and David Sinclair. You and Valter Longo.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. Have you had David on?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, on my other show, a few times. Yeah, I just love all the different perspectives. So, it's really exciting to see your version, which is very similar in a way to their work, but the focus on the protein in a way, so completely opposite. At the same time, very, very exciting.

Paul J. Arciero: Well, I'll just make one comment on that and you can take it or leave it. But I think using humans in their natural living environment is really important, and their work that they're doing is amazing. It's cutting edge, it's providing incredible change, and it's revolutionary and innovative. But yeah, I'm hoping that there's some type of mutual coming together on this, because I think that in the perspective of the human model, living and engaging with the world in an active, dynamic, physical way where we know that these different modes of exercise play such a critical role in helping provide health, and cognitive, and performance benefit. I think to just, for example, recommend one type of exercise, high intensity exercise is the only means to provide health is a little bit short sighted.

To suggest that given protein's role in cancer, in certain cancer growth, yeah, I think we just need to continue to be open minded and look at it from the perspective of the free living out in the wild human in which we study and showing the benefits that are derived from this healthy amount of protein dispersed evenly over the course of a day. So far anyway is proven to win the day. And so, yeah, hopefully, we can make that fine tuning of recommendation.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I'm haunted by the question of longevity, and so then I'm definitely haunted by this low protein research versus real life application. Intuitively, I just feel like protein is not life, but it feels very crucial.

Paul J. Arciero: Well said. No, very well said. Yeah, I think that I hope comes to the surface with all of their work eventually here. But thank you, again, both of you for doing what you do and thank you for having me on and highlighting this research.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day, and we will hopefully talk to you soon.

Paul J. Arciero: Love to hear it when you're finished with it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. We'll send it to you, for sure.

Paul J. Arciero: Have a great day.

Melanie Avalon: Thanks.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you, Paul.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jul 02

Episode 324: Air Purification, Biking, Protein Intake & Exercise, Bolus Intake Of Protein, Allulose, Monk Fruit, Erythritol, Stevia, Hormones, Blood Sugar, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Allulose in human diet: the knowns and the unknowns

Welcome to Episode 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get NY Strip Steak For Free In Every Box For 1 Year Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Flank Steak For Free In Every Box For 3 Months Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Go To carolbike.com And Use The Code MELANIEAVALON To Get $100 Off!

AVALONX BERBERINE: This Natural, Potent Anti-Inflammatory Plant Alkaloid Reduces Blood Sugar And Blood Lipids, Aids Weight Loss, Supports A Healthy Body Composition, Stimulates AMPK And Autophagy, Benefits Gut Bacteria And GI Health, And More! Help Us Release What Works Best For You! On 7/07 At 7pm EST Select Your Favorite Option For The Pre-Launch Of The Berberine Big Bottle Subscription!
AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At Avalonx.Us/Emaillist! Get 10% Off Avalonx.Us And Mdlogichealth.Com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Go To toneprotein.com To Stay Up To Date On Vanessa's New Protein Supplement!

Listener Q&A: Lori - What does our body do with a bolus of protein if we have a shorter feeding window?

Listener Q&A: Samantha - Have you heard of Allulos?

Allulose for the attenuation of postprandial blood glucose levels in healthy humans: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Effects of D-allulose on glucose tolerance and insulin response to a standard oral sucrose load: results of a prospective, randomized, crossover study

Allulose Attenuated Age‐Associated Sarcopenia via Regulating IGF‐1 and Myostatin in Aged Mice

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm great. Where should we start? I feel like it's been so long.

Vanessa Spina: I know. I've really missed podcasting with you. I was listening to today's episode, and just been really enjoying. Listening back to our episodes, it was just funny, because I remember when you first announced that you were going to be changing the host, and you and I first started talking, and I was so excited to be cohosting with you, but a tiny little part of me was like, "I'm going to miss listening [unintelligible [00:01:49]," but it's actually still quite fun to listen even though I already know what the answers are going to be, it's still fun. So, yeah, I'm really glad that we're back.

Melanie Avalon: I have so much fun. I was telling you this right before how I was talking with a friend yesterday and we were talking about the concept of loneliness and having connections and-- Well, actually, we're talking-- I was reading about this as well how especially men, I think, loneliness becomes more of an epidemic for them, especially when they age, and it's hard for them to find friend groups. But in any case, I was reflecting on how the people I get to hang out with daily in my work are also my best friends like you, and Scott, our supplement partner, and all the things. So, I'm really grateful for that.

Vanessa Spina: I am too. It makes it so much fun. I'm going to work at night and I'm so excited. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. I know. It's been so long. I just want to update listeners. I am still really, really obsessed now that I've used it some more with this CAROL AI Bike.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's like my gym. It's amazing.

Vanessa Spina: I remember you said you were really into it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Because I think last time I talked about it, I just started it. I'm actually able to do it a couple times a week now, and it's just so easy. Basically for listeners, it's like HIIT, H-I-I-T, interval training, but it's called REHIT because it's even more efficient and it uses AI and the whole workout takes eight minutes. I was saying before, it acts like you're a hunter-gatherer walking in the woods, and then a tiger comes, and it yells at you, and you run. It's amazing. So, people are really looking to optimize their metabolic health and fitness and are not gym goers intense like me, then definitely check it out. The code MELANIEAVALON will get you a $100 off of that. It's called CAROL AI. So, if you go to carolbike.com, you can learn about it, and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you a $100 off. I'm wondering if they'll be at the Biohacking Conference, which is next week, Vanessa. Oh, my goodness. I'm so scared. How do you travel so intensely? Give me your skills.

Vanessa Spina: I'm lucky that my parents brought me up traveling a lot. We did such long flights. But I always find packing to be challenging because there're so many micro decisions involved and you have to anticipate all these different scenarios and things. And now that we have a one-year-old, almost two-year-old, it adds a whole other [giggles] dimension to packing of anticipating their needs as well. And for me that's the toughest part about doing it. But I think I just try to plan as best as I can. Some of my friends make spreadsheet things, [giggles] especially when we have more than one kid, you know? My best friend, Jess, she has spreadsheet that she'll send to me on her packing methods and things like that, because there're just so many things you have to remember. But at the end of the day, if you need something, you can probably find it locally unless you're going to the middle of the jungle or something. But what is it about travel that do you find the most intimidating or challenging?

Melanie Avalon: Mostly, how it affects [giggles] the circadian rhythms of everything in my body. So, my digestion primarily, my sleep. It's really those things. So, it's not the actual travel. It is a lot to bring all your stuff, like, all my supplements, and all my red-light devices, and clothing and shoes, yeah. So, it's more like the environment I would like to have. Although, although, I just learned, when I interviewed-- Who was saying this? Oh, when I interviewed David Milburn at HypoAir, he makes a certain type of air purifier. Did you know this, Vanessa? He said that, if you call hotels and ask for the hypoallergenic rooms that a lot of hotels have special rooms for people with issues. And so, they'll use more cleaning stuff. Did you know that?

Vanessa Spina: No. That's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: He said most hotels do it and it'll have more air purification. The reason he knows about it is they actually outfit hotels with their technology for these either rooms or floors.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, interesting.

Melanie Avalon: So, I was like, "That's a--" I'm glad we're talking about this. After this, I'm going to--

Vanessa Spina: You could do that for your trip. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm going to do that. I'll report back.

Vanessa Spina: I was just reading about how air purity can affect the mitochondria and how important it is to have a HEPA air filter, which I've started looking into at least for our bedroom, because you spend so much time in there breathing every night. Yeah, I'm looking into one now. Apparently, it has to be HEPA designated in order to meet certain standards that would be beneficial to your mitochondria.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. So, that's really interesting. So, in the study, they were looking at HEPA filters specifically?

Vanessa Spina: This is in a new book I'm reading about Mitochondria and the Future of Medicine. It's really interesting, because they were listing out the top things that can affect your mitochondria. It's one of the topics I talk about on other podcasts when people interview me is, like, the ways that you can optimize your mitochondria. So, I'm always trying to learn more things. The author's number one thing when it came to optimizing mitochondria was getting a HEPA air filter. So, I was like, "Well, if it's our number one thing, then I think I need to look into this." It's because, as you know, the mitochondria need oxygen to make ATP and the ingestion of carbon monoxide is so bad for the mitochondria because it's basically a lack of oxygen. So, the ATP production stops and this buildup of electron happens. So, it's so crucial to mitochondria to have pure oxygen.

Melanie Avalon: So, that's really fascinating. When I interview David, I can't wait to air that episode, I learned so much about air purification, because apparently, there're multiple different modalities and methods. And so, HEPA, for example, has to do with particle size, so physically capturing particles in the air. The HEPA designation is designating that it can capture a certain-- I don't know if it's a certain particle size or number, but that's what it's addressing, basically. I should pull up the charts I had from when I interviewed him. So, in my apartment, I have multiple units that use HEPA air filter. So, I use Alen, I have AirDoctor, and then there're other technologies. So, his technology, HypoAir, it's crazy because it's like this really small little unit but what it does is it actually-- it's technology--

Now I'm forgetting exactly the technology. But it basically acts offensively instead of defensively. So, if you think of HEPA, HEPA is being like a defense because it's taking the particles out of the air. This actually changes something in the air that actually goes out and kills things. So, it kills mold spores and viruses on surfaces. And so, the air doesn't have to go through the unit for it to kill things everywhere in the room, which is really fascinating. Then there're other filters, a lot of HEPA filters will have carbon filters as well, and that helps absorb odors and gases. Yeah, there's just so much to air purification and I'm obsessed with it. I have so many units in my apartment.

Vanessa Spina: Do you also have plants? Because that's something that I know there're certain plants that can be natural air purifiers for you?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Well, I have you know my cucumbers-- I have cucumbers, I have a Dollar Tree, I have quite a few different plants. I know there are specific ones that are supposed to better, like, better at that. I'm not sure, you know, if any of mine meet those qualifications, but I do like the plants. Oh, I saw on your Instagram, your beautiful-- was that your deck that you did?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, we just redid the stone on the deck. So, we have a terrace going around, like, the front of our place and then on the side. And then we have a little garden on the side, and we are replacing the stone. It turned out really nice. They got it all done in one day. It just upgraded the side, because it was just like an older stone that had been there. Our building is actually quite new, but it just had been a bit weathered, so we replaced it. It looks all pretty now with the flowers and everything, but we actually live right next to a small forest. So, if you saw in the stories, there's just forest everywhere, and there's, basically, our deck, and then there's just forest. So, it's really amazing because we're still in the city too.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's best of both worlds.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's really amazing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous. City and forest altogether?

Vanessa Spina: That's why I was telling you. We were so excited. Speaking of biking, when she kicked the episode off with CAROL Bike, we were so excited to get our bikes out. I keep telling you about it, because it's actually been three years since I've gotten to bike. Pete and I, that's what we would do every weekend. We would get on our bikes, go down, bike all along the river, stop somewhere, like, a cute little burger place and get burgers, and then get back on the bike. It was just so much fun. We did that all summer. And then, because I was pregnant and then had Luca, we haven't been able to. He's finally old enough that we got him a little bike seat, and he's on the bike seat on the back of Pete's bike, and so they go in front and I'm in the back, so I can watch him and interact with him, and we're just back at it finally it's absolute heaven just going through the woods. Because I was saying, the woods are all around us, we can just go up into the forest here, and bike for hours, and then discover little hidden castles in the woods and--

Melanie Avalon: Hidden castles?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there was one-- Yeah, there were .

Melanie Avalon: Wait, real hidden castles? Are they abandoned?

Vanessa Spina: Czech has the highest density of castles per capita in Europe. So, there're castles everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: Well, okay, wait, let's pause for one sec. Okay, so like people live in these castles?

Vanessa Spina: Well, some of them people still live. The original families will hand them down and they'll live in part of the castle, but that's what we do a lot of times on the weekend is go visit a castle. You can go to a tour of the interior. A lot of them still have original furniture in it. It's absolutely stunning. They have these incredible Venetian chandeliers from Murano in Italy. It's just so beautiful and so much fun. [giggles] We go to a lot of them on the weekends and we're starting to do that now that we're able to be more mobile and stuff. But there's one that we went to, we were just talking about this weekend, we stumbled upon and it looks like it used to have the Knights Templar or something there. We found another one that had all this grotto inside, and then we went inside, and there was all the Knights Templar relics and all of their, just like, clothes that they wore. It's just amazing, like, just find this stuff in the middle of nowhere sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: Woah. That's such an adventure.

Vanessa Spina: It's so much fun. Now we can take Luca with us. So, I want to get that CAROL Bike you're talking about, but we also love biking outside in the summer. It's just so amazing to be in nature. And now that we're back at it, it's all I think about during the week. It's like, I can't wait to go biking on Saturday and Sunday.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Now it's reminding me too growing up-- When I was growing up in Atlanta, I'm going to have to go back and find this. I'm going to do this. I wonder if it's still there. I remember outside of our neighborhood, there was a castle. It was like a person's normal house, but they made it look like a castle. It had like a moat, it had a moat. [laughs] I'm going to go find that by myself. When I first moved back here, I was like, "I'm going to go look at my childhood house." So, I drove to it and it was in a not the safest part of town now. Everything has changed. So, I drove and I just parked, and I just sat there for a second, and everybody was looking at me, and then I left. [laughs] But I looked at it for-- It's so crazy to see things from that, like, from your childhood. This was, like, my real childhood. This is until I was probably four or so.

Vanessa Spina: And you're thinking of moving, right?

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I should move to Austin.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so jealous. I would love to live there.

Melanie Avalon: You should. No, not really. You're in Prague with castles. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: I know. We could form this community with all the biohackers and people who are interested in health optimization, create some, like, what is it, like, a compound.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Commune? No, is that bad? I don't know the correct terminology. Yeah. No, I am seriously considering it. I feel like everybody I know now or a lot of the people I know in this sphere, all live in Austin. It's the place to be. Is it even hotter than here, Georgia? I don't know.

Vanessa Spina: Probably similar. But I know in the summer, when I would go to KetoCon, it was insanely hot.

Melanie Avalon: Is it more dry though? It's drier than the south.

Vanessa Spina: I'm not sure exactly, but I just know that you just go in the AC because it's so hot.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we shall see. Okay, next episode, I have to tell you about the wedding, because I realized it's been so long since we've talked.

Vanessa Spina: I actually was planning to ask you about it. Okay. Let's save that recap for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Okay. So, one quick announcement before we jump in. My berberine supplement, we're we are launching subscriptions, and we launched a large bottle for serrapeptase a few months ago, and that went really well. We want to do it for berberine as well. It was easier with serrapeptase. With berberine, it's hard to tell how often people are taking it and how much they're taking. So, we're going to do a trial subscription thing where it's like you guys get to help us know what you want. So, this ends July 17th. So, you have a little bit longer, so grab it now. You can get either two bottles for two months, so the normal bottles or two bottles for three months. And you will get grandfathered in for life on a major discount. I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but I don't want to say because I don't want to be wrong. But it'll be basically one of the biggest discounts you can get and you'll be grandfathered in. So, as long as you keep the subscription, you'll keep that discount.

Then based on how that goes, we'll make a large bottle based on what's more popular. So, it's going to help us know what you guys want with a large bottle, and it also gives people the chance to get on a berberine subscription. It's really shocking. I mean this. I thought when I made my berberine that it would be the same. I was taking Thorne before. I thought it would look the same on my CGM, because I like Thorne. It's crazy that effect I've seen on my personal blood sugar levels using AvalonX berberine, and other people have said this as well, like, friends, other influencers. So, if you're looking to help your blood sugar and work with that, it also has antiaging effects because it affects the AMPK pathway, it can help with cholesterol, it can help with gut microbiome. It's really an awesome supplement. So, avalonx.us, you can get that subscription now. You can get updates at avalonx.us/emailist. And you can get text updates with a 20% off coupon code when you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And now with all of that, before we jump in, Vanessa, do you want to give your landing page for your protein powder that's coming out in the future?

Vanessa Spina: I am so excited about Tone protein, which is a scientifically formulated protein that is optimized for building muscle, triggering muscle protein synthesis. I'm going to be sharing more details on how it works. But if you would like to get on the exclusive VIP list, you'll receive a very special launch discount, and you just need to sign up with your name and email at toneprotein.com. That's toneprotein.com and I'm sure you'll link that up in the show notes for everyone.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited for you. I think about you now all the time. Last night, I was listening to an interview all about protein powders. Oh, it was about protein powders and BCAA. It was about everything protein and they were talking about their products, and I was like, "Vanessa's going to have the best product ever."

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you so much. That means so much to me.

Melanie Avalon: Aren't you focusing on formulating it to be the--? I don't want to put words in your mouth. I feel very good about your formulation.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to be sharing more details on how it works, but it is-- Yeah, it's being scientifically optimized for building muscle in a way that no other protein is doing or has done. So, I'm really excited about it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. Okay. So, yes, friends. Okay. So, on that note, shall we jump into questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I can't wait to get into them.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a question from Lori, and this was actually from Facebook. I think it was probably when I was asking for questions for you in Facebook. So, Lori says, "What does our body do with the bolus of protein, speaking of protein, if we have a shorter feeding window two to four hours? I've been trying to eat 100 grams of protein a day in my feeding window, but I have heard on other podcasts like, Huberman Lab, that it is best to take in the protein in two to three separate meals of 40 to 50 grams each meal, advantages/disadvantages. And then she also wants to know about the timing of protein intake with exercise."

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's such a great question. I'm sure you have lots of thoughts on this as well, Melanie. But I'll give you my opinion on the pros and cons. Optimally, if you were just going for building the most amount of muscle possible, so in the case of someone who's a professional body builder, for example, or just someone who really wants to build the most muscle possible regardless of other goals, that's your number one goal, you would want to eat at least 30 grams of protein as many times as you possibly could in the day. Now, most of us are not trying to be professional bodybuilders, but every time you eat a certain amount of protein, so around 30 grams of protein from lean chicken breast, or steak, or pork, or eggs, you are increasing the level of leucine in your blood, which is an amino acid. It's part of the branched-chain amino acids, but it actually has the biggest or strongest effect on triggering mTOR for muscle protein synthesis. And so, if you have under this amount of leucine, it's called the leucine threshold, basically. If you exceed it, which is for most people around 3 grams, it can be somewhere for 2.5 to 3 grams depending on how old you are. The younger you are, you can basically just look at protein and you'll build muscle. But if you're over 30, then you're probably going to need at least maybe 2.7 to 3 grams of leucine at that meal.

So, what that means is that, when you exceed that threshold, your body starts making muscle. The thing is, if you eat more than what you need to trigger muscle protein synthesis, you are not going to trigger it more. You can only trigger it once in one sitting. So, if you eat 30 grams of protein, you'll trigger it once. If you eat 100 grams of protein at that meal, you'll also trigger it once. So, if you're eating all of your protein in just one meal a day, then if your goal isn't to build more muscle than anything else, if you have other goals. For example, longevity or optimizing just body composition overall. There're so many different goals that you could have, then that's fine.

But if your goal is to say put on 4 to 6 pounds of muscle in a year, you're going to be missing out on those opportunities. I would put it at the very minimum to split it up into two separate meals or three up to four being more optimal if that's your goal. So, some people say, if you eat all of that protein in a bolus that-- I've interviewed amazing protein scientists like, Dr. Don Layman, who say that, "Basically, the rest for every 100 grams of protein that you eat, you get about 60 grams of glucose," like, basically, the protein just turns to glucose. But if you are eating it at separate meals, most of that protein is going to go towards building muscle. So, it depends on what you're optimizing for. I would say, at the very least, if your goal is 100 grams approaching a day to split it up into two at minimum up to three separate meals. If you're doing two, like, 40 to 50 grams, like you said, if you're doing three meals a day, then 30 to 35 grams per meal.

In terms of timing, protein intake with exercise, for most people who are not professional athletes, your anabolic window lasts about 24 hours. So, you could eat protein even the day before, like say, if you had protein at dinner and then work out the next day in the morning, and that protein is still going to go towards helping you lay down new muscle fibers at that workout. So, it's usually about 24 hours for anyone who isn't a professional athlete. Professional athletes are people who have been doing, for example, resistance training for years, they may need to time it a little bit closer within two hours to four hours of the meal. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That was amazing. Quick question. So, at the very beginning, you said, basically, ideally, if you're wanting to get maximum muscle, everything that you would be eating this protein as much as you can throughout the day, what is the actual window of each of those times?

Vanessa Spina: You would basically eat when you wake up. Professional bodybuilders, they'll eat proteins six, seven, eight times a day. That's why they're just always eating, like, the whole pretty much every two hours. So, I think within a couple hours, you could trigger it again. So, for example, in the Paul Arciero, the protein pacing, they had very specific time windows where they were eating that protein, every two hours to three hours. I think sometimes, three hours to four hours, but making sure to get it at regular intervals throughout the day. That's typically what aesthetic bodybuilders do. They wake up, have a protein meal at breakfast and some of them will even have a protein shake before going to bed, because it can also help with retaining muscle.

Melanie Avalon: That sounds very exhausting.

Vanessa Spina: It's a job. It's a job in itself, like, you're carrying around chicken breast with you everywhere you go.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, I agree with everything that you said. I will say, because I know people get worried about muscle retention with fasting, for example, specifically. It's a two-part thing, because you were talking about the anabolic window of exercise lasting for 24 hours. So, not the same thing because that's related to exercise but, for example, with intermittent fasting, a lot of people will eat all of their protein within a shorter window and they're worried about potential muscle loss. So, this is just N of 1 for me and again, I eat a protein a lot, and I do eat it over quite a few hours. I wonder your thoughts on this Vanessa.

I eat so much protein and I wonder if that's why I've been able to, not just maintain but build muscle with daily intermittent fasting window for years and years. Do you think most people would struggle with their protein intake in a shorter window?

Vanessa Spina: Sorry. The question is, would people struggle--?

Melanie Avalon: So, I think about this all the time, because I eat such a high-protein diet and I eat it in a "one-meal-a-day situation" and I have for a decade. I've had zero issues with muscle maintenance and zero issues with gaining muscle. So, I know it's possible, basically, in a shorter window. But I also wonder is the effect, is it because I'm eating so much protein, more than most people would. I just wonder how in the practical day to day life, do more people who do a shorter eating window find issues with this rather than not and your experience with all people you've worked with?

Vanessa Spina: I think because you're younger, that's part of it. You don't need to consume as much. Especially when you're in your 20s and 30s, you just don't need to consume as much protein and you don't need to consume as much leucine to just maintain what you have. Because every day you have a certain amount of muscle protein breakdown occurring. You just want to make sure that you trigger muscle protein synthesis enough, so that it at least equals the amount of muscle protein breakdown. You'll be fine with just one bolus of protein what you're doing every day. I don't want to say this will happen for you, but in 20 years or maybe 30 years, you might need to do two meals, I don't know. You might be fine because you're consuming such a big bolus of protein that you're probably hitting 5 grams, 6 grams, 7 grams of leucine, which is what you need when you're in your 50s and 60s. So, it could be fine just for maintenance and building. But if you were going to go be a full-time bodybuilder, you probably would find that you would need to do more than one meal just to compete with the amount of muscle that other people are putting on by consuming protein all day long.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Well, you hit on exactly what I've wondered, because whenever I hear people talk about this, and I told you before the show that I was listening to an episode all about this last night, and they talk about which I agree with and believe that as you age, it's more of an issue basically after-- Yeah, what I just said. I'm like, "But am I the unicorn here?" Because I just like to seeing myself eating all this protein for like ever. I just love it.

Vanessa Spina: Well, do you know how many grams you do in a day?

Melanie Avalon: I should probably check. I literally eat pounds and pounds of meat and seafood every night. I could throw it in Cronometer really quick.

Vanessa Spina: Maybe you're somewhere between 150 grams to 200 grams. Think one pound is like 50-- usually one pound is around 50 grams. So, if you're doing three pounds, it'd be around 150 grams, fours pounds would be like around 200 grams.

Melanie Avalon: This is a pound of protein, like, but salmon's fattier is 99 grams. Is that right? Let's see, tilapia 120 grams, trout 92 grams.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Maybe I'm thinking, maybe it's closer to 100 grams per pound.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I always thought with chicken, but chicken's very lean.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, chicken has so much protein in it. It's crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I would say it's probably in the 200s of protein grams.

Vanessa Spina: It may be also because you're not just eating it all within half an hour or an hour. You are eating it within your-- You have four hour or five-hour eating windows, right, something like that? So, maybe it's also spreading it out a little bit. So, you have this constant trickle of amino acids.

Melanie Avalon: I think that does need to be considered, because I probably am digesting that meal for a long time. So, it's probably a slower release of the protein of the amino acids.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because it takes four hours to five hours after a meal for them all to be broken down.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I did not mean to turn this into about me. I just been thinking a lot about that with the aging aspect. Interestingly, last night in the interview I was listening to, he was saying with leucine that it can actually turn catabolic. Does that make any sense to you?

Vanessa Spina: Mm-mm.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I meant to take notes, such a fail. I was like, "I've asked Vanessa about this."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Ask me when you find out or send me the podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I will, I will.

Vanessa Spina: It would be catabolic if you eat a meal and you don't get enough leucine.

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to relisten and see what he was saying about it specifically. It's really interesting. He was talking about the EAAs and people used to focus on just leucine, val-- What are the three? Leucine, valine, and isoleucine.

Vanessa Spina: Isoleucine. Yeah, isoleucine is like a secondary triggered after leucine, but leucine, like, by itself. It just blows away the other ones for muscle protein synthesis activation.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, I think it was in the context of-- I will revisit it and circle back.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Does that answer her question mostly?

Vanessa Spina: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Vanessa Spina: All right. Our next question is from Samantha Tuff. "Morning. Just a quick hey y'all, I hope you are doing well. I'm sorry about the trolls of the universe. They're crazy, and jealous, and you guys are rocking it. Keep it up."

Melanie Avalon: I'll jump in to explain what she's talking about there, because I don't think you were here, Vanessa. Cynthia and I had a few episodes where we were talking about the environment of social media and just some of the negative energy we had experienced. So, I think this was Samantha reaching out to be supportive, which is very kind. So, thank you, Samantha.

Vanessa Spina: She asks, "Have you heard of allulose? I am going to do some research, but thought who best to send down a new rabbit hole than Melanie. Have a fantastic weekend. Hearts." Thanks, Sam Tuff.

Melanie Avalon: I like that you read the emoji hearts. We love emojis, by the way, if listeners ever want to add emojis.

Vanessa Spina: More emojis

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Just go whatever speaks to you. [giggles] Wait. Question, Vanessa. When you're deciding what emojis to use, do you do what I do, which is I just look at all them, I'm like, "What speaks to me right now"?

Vanessa Spina: For sure. It's like a catalog of feelings.

Melanie Avalon: It's like, I was talking with a friend the other day, and we needed to come up with an emoji to communicate something specific between us. It was so fun. I was like, "I just need to look through the catalog. I need to pick the one that will embody this vibe." What did we do before emojis?

Vanessa Spina: I don't know, but whenever there's an update, I'm so excited. Sometimes, I'll just scroll through to see if there're any new ones that I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, there's this."

Melanie Avalon: You further convinced me to update, so that I can see, when I get the question mark boxes, it kills me.

Vanessa Spina: So exciting. There's a new one which is, like, angel wings really into it right now.

Melanie Avalon: You know my sister, because I couldn't see what my sister was sending me, and I told her, so she sent me screenshot, and it was this beautiful new blue shade of heart.

Vanessa Spina: That's the heart I keep using. That's the one you're like I can't see what you're sending me. It's always the pretty blue heart."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Okay, I'm going to update. I'm going to join you in the blue heart, angel wing club.

Vanessa Spina: That's way better than just seeing a box question mark.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It reminds me of Mario though.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know. [laughs] My favorite.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, back to the question. Thank you, Sam, for your question. It's funny. So, I've had this one in the lineup for a little bit, but I didn't answer it because I thought we had just answered it. But then I remembered when we answered this, it was when Gin was the cohost. So, it's been a while. So, time to revisit this question. I went down the rabbit hole as requested and learned a lot. So, before I jump into this, Vanessa, do you use allulose?

Vanessa Spina: I use stevia and monk fruit, but we're actually researching allulose right now for the protein. So, I am super excited to hear your answer on this.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, this is exciting. Wow, this is in real life.

Vanessa Spina: My brother randomly this weekend was like, "I think you should use allulose in your protein powder."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. This is exciting. This is perfect. Well, I have noticed probably throughout the past year-ish, year and a half that I feel like allulose as the sweetener has skyrocketed. Well, it used to be artificial sweeteners. Let me know if you agree with this timeline. I feel like, first, it was artificial sweeteners. Then it was erythritol and stevia and they of floated there for a little bit. And then stevia, I feel got more popular. And then monk fruit came in. Then it was like stevia and monk fruit.

Vanessa Spina: What do you like?

Melanie Avalon: Well, back in the day, I don't use any of them really now. I did like stevia, especially when I was struggling with Lyme disease. I read a study about how stevia was anti-Lyme. So, I went through a phase where I was all the stevia, like, on everything. I don't know, I like stevia and I liked monk fruit. How about you?

Vanessa Spina: I like stevia or stevia. I never had any issues with it. I like that it's made from a plant. But there was a concerning report out recently that it can negatively affect male fertility. I was talking about it with Scott, because I was like, "Maybe we should look into a different one." I said, first, someone commented that on my post and I was like, "Do you have the source?" They didn't reply back. But I asked Scott and he was like, "Yeah. I saw that report." So, I was like, "Send it to me, please." So, I don't know yet if there's any truth to it or validity at all or if it was one of those things where there was a weird clickbait headline like the thing that happened with erythritol, which was, yeah, crazy.

Melanie Avalon: What happened with erythritol? That's ringing a bell a little bit.

Vanessa Spina: There was a study that came out this, I think it was sometime around Christmas time maybe or the early in the New Year, and it was a study showing that it increased risk for cardiac events. But when all these people in the community started breaking it down like, Robb Wolf, and all these people. Dr. Ryan Lowery, I know he did a really comprehensive breakdown and he was just explaining why. In the study, it turned out that the body can actually endogenously produce erythritol when people are obese. So, that's actually what was happening is that, there were higher levels of erythritol. Because of that, more so obesity was linked with cardiac events or a prior probability of that. They were somehow trying to paint erythritol the sweetener as the issue. But there're a lot of different breakdowns that were really good explaining it. But of course, the headline, I had so many people send it to me who just saw the headline and were freaking out about it, I don't really use it, but I have recommended it in my cookbooks and stuff. So, I was really glad to see that what people were saying it was.

Melanie Avalon: As far as taste goes, I do really like the taste of erythritol. And then, yes, stevia. I remember, I was using monk fruit a lot and then I was reading about how it could possibly mess with hormones, and I was like, "Oh, it's always something. Always something."

Vanessa Spina: So, allulose might be the

Melanie Avalon: So, what is allulose? So, actually, it is a sugar. It's a low energy monosaccharide sugar. It's naturally found in some fruits, so kiwis, figs, and raisins, but in very small amounts. And then compared to sugar, it's about 70% of the sweetness of sugar. It's 0.2 calories a gram, so that's 95% less calories compared to straight up sucrose what we think of as white sugar. So, here's the thing. It is similar to fructose and it actually uses the exact same transport and distribution pathways that fructose uses, but we don't have enzymes to metabolize it. So, basically, what happens is, it is a sugar, it tastes sweet, it goes down the fructose pathway, we don't extract energy from it. It actually almost completely extracted with the help of the kidneys and doesn't provide any calories. So, that's really cool.

On top of that, so not only is it sweet without any calories, there's actually been a lot of studies on its effect on blood sugar levels and insulin levels. It seems to have really beneficial effects. So, it actually has anti-diabetic effects. The majority or a lot of the studies especially in the beginning were in Asian populations, but they were pretty consistently showing this data. I found a newer study. It was called Effects of D-allulose on glucose tolerance and insulin response to a standard oral sucrose load: results of a prospective, randomized, crossover study. So, this was a 2021 study. They looked at a Western population to see the effects of allulose and they compared it.

So, basically, the participants were given a standard load. So, they were given a basic load of normal sugar, 50 grams and then they were randomized to either a placebo or they were given more and more doses of allulose, so 2.5 grams, 5 grams, 7.5 grams, 10 grams. It was a crossover treatment, so people did both things. And then they measured glucose and insulin levels to see the effects. They found it was dose dependent. Meaning, the higher the dose of allulose, the greater the effect of reducing blood sugar levels in the allulose group 30 minutes after the dose compared to the placebo. So, that is pretty cool. It didn't continue beyond that. They didn't have continued lower blood sugar after the 30-minute mark, but it did happen right after. Also, the insulin levels were trending towards lower as well.

Again, it's similar to the sugar, the insulin. Later on, it didn't have any effects, but it did immediately after the meal. So, their conclusion was that, I'll just read it to you. It said, " This is the largest study assessing the effects of D-allulose in Westerners demonstrating an early dose-dependent reduction in plasma glucose and insulin levels as well as decreased postprandial glucose and insulin excursion in subjects, oh, without diabetes." So, these were normal people. So, in addition to what I was saying about how the allulose is basically processed, but not processed by the body. There's also been a lot of other hypotheses. What's the plural of hypothesis?

Vanessa Spina: Hypotheses.

Melanie Avalon: Hypotheses. Hypotheses, I feel like I should know that for why this happens. It's like berberine. When I was researching berberine and I realized there're all these potential ways that it may be working. That seems to be the same with allulose. So, it may inhibit enzymes directly in the body, which suppress the glycemic response to carbs. It may also directly slow the absorption of glucose if it's there at the same time. So, basically, not only is it tricking the body, and tasting sweet, and not being metabolized, it might actually at the same time impede or stop the body from also absorbing any sugar taken with it. So, I've been reading about how people with blood sugar issues will actually add allulose to the carb meals to actually beneficially affect the absorption of the carbs as in slow it down or inhibit it a bit, which is very interesting.

It has been shown to stimulate glycogen synthesis in the liver and also promote faster restoration of glycogen in the liver and muscles after exercise. That's really interesting. So, not only is it impeding carbohydrate absorption, it's also helping promote the actual glycogen in the liver, which is I feel like that's a little bit counterintuitive, but very interesting. And then it also induces glucagon like peptide 1, GLP-1 released for intestinal cells and can regulate glucose concentrations after glucose and allulose intake. So, yeah, it seems to have a lot of really cool facts. Then I went down the rabbit hole, because I was reading in one list of benefits where they said it had potential antiaging properties and I was like, "What?" So, then I went and looked that up. These are all in animal trials, but there was one trial in mice called Allulose Attenuated Age-Associated Sarcopenia via Regulating IGF-1 and Myostatin in Aged Mice and they found that allulose actually improved sarcopenia in mice, and enhanced the antioxidant properties, and it was all by altering mRNA in their bodies and affecting IGF-1. So, it might support muscle maintenance like we were talking about earlier.

Another study, again, this was in yeast, they actually found that allulose affected, it might work as a calorie restriction mimetic. Meaning, it can send signaling to the body, like, a calorie restriction or fasting would do, specifically activating the AMPK pathway that we talk about a lot, which is you have the AMPK pathway and the mTOR pathway. AMPK, it's activated by things like calorie restriction, fasting, exercise, and it helps the body with repair, and it just has a lot of antiaging potential to it. Allulose might affect that as well. So, that was a lot there. But it sounds like allulose has a lot of potential benefits when it comes to blood sugar control, insulin and it's more practical because I know that was like a lot of sciency stuff. I think it bakes very similar to sugar. So, you can use it very similar to sugar in your goods, and it doesn't really have-- You've tried it, right, Vanessa, have you?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't actually tried it before.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so, it actually tastes very similar to sugar and acts the same. It doesn't really have any weird aftertaste at all. It's very surprising, actually. So, it seems to be a pretty cool supplement. I do have one concern about it, but before I do that, do you have any thoughts based on all of that?

Vanessa Spina: Well, I'm feeling really good about it. And then I was doing a little bit of research, and it turns out that it's banned in Europe, because it's a potential carcinogen. Canada also, but there's also current applications to have allulose approved in Europe. So, it sounds like the most recent update is that, it's actually going through the process as a novel sugar for approval. This was back in September. It's going through this process, a novel foods process in order to gain approval and be able to be sold in the EU. I don't know if it's in Canada. It's definitely approved by the FDA. There're some German researchers that published a study in nature and they said that allulose has real potential to meet customers' needs in the EU when replacing sugar or sweeteners with different forms of sugar, and taste is one of the most important factors. As you were saying, it tastes good, followed by its glycemic effect, and then on insulin and then the price, dental health, and calorie content. So, it sounds like it might get approved, but it's not yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because I'm just googling carcinogen. I wonder what studies they're using, because I'm not finding any studies. Nothing's coming up for studies showing that it's a carcinogen.

Vanessa Spina: So, it just hasn't been approved for use yet in Canada or Europe, because it's considered a novel food, which means it hasn't been available long enough for sufficient testing according to the governments in Europe. So, it may have no carcinogenic effect at all. That was just one thing that I read, so maybe it's new and they need more studies in order to approach this. It sounds like they're just being a little more cautious with it, but it's been improved in the US by the FDA since 2012. So, it sounds like they just need more research, but these German researchers just submitted a study, and so it's going through the process.

Melanie Avalon: Did it say the timing on that?

Vanessa Spina: That was September of 2022, the most recent, September.

Melanie Avalon: I'll be really curious to see how that unfolds. Studies were overwhelmingly positive. I did find one negative study and it was just hypothesizing. It was saying that, in vitro so not in vivo, but in vitro, basically, if they put this certain type of bacteria called [giggles] Klebsiella pneumoniae, which is an opportunistic human pathogen. So, basically, if they take this bacteria that we don't want flourishing in us and they put it in as a culture and they give it allulose, it uses the allulose, so they were saying that we need to make sure it doesn't support the growth of problematic bacteria. That was the only negative thing I could find.

My thoughts, "negative," and this is all-- This is going to be the case, I think, with any artificially sweetened thing, which it's mostly after interviewing Mark Schatzker for his book-- Well, he wrote The Dorito Effect, but he also wrote The End of Craving. I don't know if I talked about this when you were on the show, but he talks about studies where they give people artificially sweetened beverages, where they were either calorie matched to the actual amount of sugar or not calorie matched. Does this ring a bell?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we talked about it before-- Yeah, it's like his theory that it's really just a mismatch in what you're signaling to the body is coming in and what is actually coming in that causes confusion with the metabolism.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, look at you. On top of it. Yeah, so, he talks about these really fascinating studies where basically when people were given mismatched beverages. If it was artificially sweetened and it actually had less calories than it tasted like it did, it actually stopped the people's [giggles] metabolisms. So, it's really ironic, because basically, they'd be taking in less calories, but their body thought it was sweeter and it freaked out and it downregulated the metabolic rate. So, his whole theory is, well, not his whole theory, he has a lot of theories. But one of his theories is that, artificially sweetened things might create confusion with the body. So, that is separate from allulose. That's just the concept in general of artificially sweetened things. But when it comes to actual allulose, it's overwhelming the positive studies on it.

Vanessa Spina: I agree. I think it sounds overwhelmingly positive. My brother mentioned it, because he said, maybe it's the only sweetener that he can actually tolerate. I think that's also an issue that people have with these sweeteners is for some people they cause gastric distress. And so, yeah, if it's one that is well tolerated that would be a big plus too.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting and something to think about for the labeling if you do go this route and you'll come to this. I don't know if this will change, but when they label it on the packages, it has to be labeled as a carb, I believe. So, when you look at the label, it'll say that it has all these grams of sugar, but then you have to have a disclaimer saying that's from allulose and it's not metabolized.

Vanessa Spina: I've seen that for sugar alcohols. I wonder if it would be the same for stevia or for all of them, because I would never consider stevia a carb.

Melanie Avalon: Stevia, no. Monk fruit, no. Sugar alcohols, yes, but labeled as a sugar alcohol. The problem with allulose is that you have to label it at least right now, it's labeled as a sugar. So, it's really confusing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because it sounds like it technically is one, but your body just doesn't metabolize it.

Melanie Avalon: It requires a lot of education and it requires a lot of disclaimers on the bag to let people know that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you sharing all that incredible research on it and I'm sure listeners will as well, because it was so comprehensive. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: No. Thank you. I'm really excited for your journey of designing the protein and what you-- You have to keep as much as you can without giving things away. You have to let me know. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yes, definitely. I'm just so excited for the formulation. I think stevia probably is going to make the most sense. I'm super interested to learn about all of them. It sounds like everything. There're pros and cons with everything. But yeah, we just got to research it a little bit more. But it's so much fun to just be in that creative space with it.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I will say if I'm just putting on my forecast hat, I do see allulose being the future, like, it's the trend I've seen. So, I think it will become more and more popular.

Vanessa Spina: I definitely have seen it trending more and more. So, I got to try it. Maybe I'll try it when we're in Denver, because I was pleasantly surprised with monk fruit. I tried that a couple of times at KetoCon, actually and I thought it was great. And Pete actually liked that one, he doesn't like the other one. So, I did get that one a little while for him. But it's great to see more stuff, more options available. Yeah, I personally use stevia most days, a little bit in my yogurt, sometimes in some water with lemon, like, make a lemonade, or in my protein shakes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. This is so exciting. It's in real life, in real time. I feel like the audience is helping us develop the protein powder, so exciting. I love it.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, so many great questions on this episode.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, for listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions to the show, I remember we love emojis, just email questions@ifpodcast.com or go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode324, and those will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so that's super helpful. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. All right, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we wrap this up?

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to catch you all on the next episode.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. Talk to you next week. Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS