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Jan 14

Episode 352: Special Guest: Dr. Valter Longo, Fasting Mimicking, Nutritional Science, Cellular Rejuvenation, Reproduction & Lifespan, Calorie Restriction, Autophagy And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 352 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time. For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Ion Layer: NAD+ is a coenzyme that plays a key part in many cellular processes, including energy production and DNA repair. NAD+ levels are depleted by things like stress, aging, alcohol, travel, and lack of sleep. Boosting NAD+ levels can help support  energy, cognitive function, metabolic health, and even longevity! Ion Layer provides easy, affordable access to NAD+ patches! Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar-free, and high-quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate, and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

ION LAYER: Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

Episode 311: Trauma, Cancer Prevention, Obesity, Calorie Restriction, Fasting Mimicking Diet, Digestive Rest, Kid’s Nutrition, Special Teachers, And More!

Valter's history

How animal studies compare to human studies

How the body regenerates itself

Pre-programmed cellular death

Timeline of reproduction within lifespan

Fasting & calorie restriction

Listener Q&A: Melanie - What level does he think is low protein? Does he think it is best to alway be low protein or is it ok to cycle between low and moderate or high protein diets?

Listener Q&A: Laura - Is there a way to mitigate muscle loss on an extended fast?

Listener Q&A: Shelley - Does the fasting mimicking diet really protect you from losing lean body mass? He says the glycerin drink that's included in the ProLon kit is supposed to protect you from losing lean body mass.

Listener Q&A: Heather - Have done several rounds of FMD. Wore a CGM and it spiked my glucose significantly - how is this mimicking fasting?

Calorie restriction & lifespan

FMD trials

The anti-cancer properties

Listener Q&A: Candice - What’s considered an extended fast—36 hrs, 48, etc? And what happens during each phase—like when does autophagy peak?

Stem cell regeneration

The differences in sexes

Listener Q&A: April - Am curious if his guidance differs for perimenopausal women vs. other groups but will see if he covers that in his book.

Listener Q&A: Tabitha - 
Do extended fasts or fasting mimicking diets affect women’s hormones and should they only be done at certain times of the monthly cycle? Curious to know especially during the perimenopause time of life?

Is ProLon appropriate for any age?

How ProLon works

Can you tweak the fasting mimicking diet?

Daily time restricted eating vs fasting mimicking diet

Breakfast skipping

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - How can I live to 180?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 352 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is a very special episode today with Dr. Longo. We can't wait to hear what you guys think. If after listening, you would like to try the fasting mimicking diet, you can go to Prolonlife.com and use the coupon code IFPODCAST to get 10% off your order of the ProLon FMD.

So that is Prolonlife.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 10% off your order of ProLon. And then these show notes for today's episode, which will have a full transcript, will be available at ifpodcast.com/episode352.

So again, Prolonlife.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 10% off. All right, now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends. Welcome back to the show. We have a very special episode of the intermittent fasting podcast today with a very special guest. This is somebody that we talk about on this show all the time. We get questions about all the time. We are here with a legend in the fasting world, Dr. Valter Longo, who actually is from USC, where went so it's personally, I'm very excited about this as well. Fight on. So listeners are probably familiar with Dr. Longo, but for those who are not, he is actually the Edna M. Jones professor of gerontology and biological sciences and director of the Longevity Institute at USC. I remember, actually, when I was at USC, I used to always pass that building and it looked very mysterious to me. I don't think I even knew what gerontology was at the time, which kind of shows how far things have come in my life. Dr. Longo, though he has received so many awards for his work from the NIH, he's been recognized by Time magazine. Just a laundry list of things which we will put in the show notes. He's also the author of an incredible book, which I have right here, the longevity diet. I highly recommend it. The subtitle is discover the new science behind stem cell activation and regeneration to slow aging, fight disease, and optimize weight. And Dr. Longo has actually been, he's been on my other show, the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, and he's actually been on this show like five years ago now. So it's been quite a while. And I know there's been a lot of developments and updates and so many things. So I have so many questions. Personally, I have a lot of questions from you guys because you had a lot of questions. So, Dr. Longo, thank you so much for being you.

Valter Longo:
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
So to start things off, just to get listeners a little bit familiar with your work, and for those who are not familiar, a little bit about your backstory, what made you so interested in aging calorie restriction fasting. I know in the book you talk about wanting to be a rock star when you were younger. So what led you to what you're doing today?

Valter Longo:
I was a music student, actually, in Texas. The University of North Texas had one of the best jazz programs in the nation. They asked me to direct a marching band. And so I said there is no way that I'm going to do that. I was a rock guitar player, so I wasn't going to be a marching band director, and I have nothing against marching band, by the way, but I wasn't going to direct it. So I thought maybe what I always wanted to do was aging. And it was always in my head. And so I was probably 19 years old, and I was sure that I wanted to study aging. So I went over to the biochemistry department, and of course they thought I was crazy because I'd never taken a biology course in my life. And they say that you're not going to last more than three months, but that's not the case. And so that's all I've ever done since. And then fasting came in mostly with Roy Walford at UCLA when I started my phd in 1992, a long time ago. And Roy at the time, was most famous person on the planet for nutrition and aging. And he was, not surprisingly, working on something called calorie restriction. So I started in his lab, but then I left his lab to go back to the biochemistry department and start working not on calorie restriction, but on starving bacteria and starving yeast. So I sort of got the sense from the very beginning, the starvation, real fasting, like water, only fasting was hiding something even more important than just calorie restriction. Calorie restriction just refers to just eating about 25% less calories than normal. But fasting, of course, is no calories at all. And so, yeah, since then, I've been focusing my laboratories both here and in Italy, I've been focusing on fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
I have so many questions already. Just to start with, the animal studies, how much of the aging pathways and everything in the animals, how appropriately do they apply to humans? Is it like a one to one thing, or is it more extrapolations, or what's the comparison there?

Valter Longo:
You mean in general, timing wise, when.

Melanie Avalon:
You find findings in rodents or yeast, how do we know how much that applies to humans?

Valter Longo:
This is why I started working. I went from humans and mice in Walford lab to bacteria and yeast at UCLI and the John Valentine's lab. And because I thought all these organisms have 3 billion years of history, and I thought in 3 billion years, all these organisms have been evolving in parallel. And so I thought there's going to be probably very fundamental laws for what's happening during fasting that apply to all organisms. Now, of course, there's a lot of differences, and you have to make sure you understand them and you apply them. And so that's what we do. So we run lots of clinical trials for that reason. But I think the fundamentals were going to be, I mean, at least that was my hypothesis. The fundamentals are going to be the same. So if you starve a yeast, a unicellular eukaryot, it's going to start shrinking, and then it's going to get into a low aging mode, and it's going to start eating its own components while it's shrinking. And then eventually you feed it again and it re expands. Right. So I thought this is probably something very much conserved all the way to humans. You shrink, you eat your own parts, essentially, while you're doing that, and pick the ones that are most damaged and then turn on programs that are very similar to the embryonic developmental programs. So the same programs that generate organs when you need to re expand. Right. It all makes sense. And that's what we now see in mice, in rats, and we're starting to see this in people. But really, a lot of that started in yeast and bacteria.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. Yeah. Two thoughts from that really quickly. One, I think you were pointing out in your book that we clearly, as humans, when we create an embryo, we have the potential to create something that is not aged. It's really interesting that our bodies age, but we still harbor this seemingly inherent potential to create something that is completely young. So how do we apply that to our entire body? Is that just two different systems? Can that translate over? Is there something different that's going on when we're creating embryos versus our bodies aging?

Valter Longo:
Yeah, and this is the big difference between, I think, what we do and what a lot of my colleagues do. Right. So there's a lot of biohacking. And our point has been that the human body already knows how to go back to zero. Right, meaning age zero. But how do you do that? Right, so how do you make a liver or a muscle or a pancreas regenerate itself and go back to zero? And so we've shown that, in fact, you could do this with fasting, mimicking diets and do multiple shrinking, re expansion. Shrinking re expansion. And if you do it enough times, you'll see that actually these Yamanaka factors, these reprogramming, these markers of embryonic development, they turn down, right. And they start the process of regeneration. And then when you refeed, they actually start the process of re expansion and making new cells and more functional cells. For example, we've done it with pancreas. We take the mouse and we damage the pancreas to where it no longer makes insulin. And then we start with the fasting, making diet and refeeding cycles. And you see that the pancreatic cells begin to be reprogrammed, and then eventually they start making insulin again and they become functional again. So we went from a permanently non functional pancreas to a regenerated functional pancreas. So this is just some of the examples. Now, can you actually make it all the way to an organism that is completely young? That's much, much harder. But I think that we're on the right track. Right. And I don't know that we want to make people go back to being 15 years old, but certainly we can rejuvenate. We now know that we can make people younger. The question is, how much younger at.

Melanie Avalon:
The point of death? What do you think is happening there? Because what I'm thinking through in my head right now is the aging of all these different organs and the potential to, I don't know, independently anti age each individual organ, but the body as a whole. What do you think actually happens at the point of death? Is there a system wide message where it's just decided that everything has independently aged enough that we just have to stop all systems? Or what do you think is happening there?

Valter Longo:
We've been working also on the theoretical part, and we're not very busy on that, but we have. And there are two possibilities that we came up with, and one is that aging is actually programmed, right, which is very unlikely. We demonstrated for unicellular organisms. What does that mean? But nobody's ever demonstrated for mammals. So is it possible that there is actually a program to kill us, to get us out of the way so that new generations can have the space and the food and the resources to grow? The evolutionary biologists will say that's crazy talk. There is no way. And maybe it happens in microorganisms but nowhere else. But let's assume that that's not true, then the other part is really, there is something called the force of natural selection. And so what does that mean? Means that the evolution, as the job, is selective for organisms that are very protected, as long as they are still in a phase where they can contribute to the next generation. Right. So let's say for humans, let's say it's 40 to 50. After that, it will make sense. And we know that the force of natural selection goes down, meaning that the force that kept everything working in an almost perfect way is now weaker and weaker and weaker and weaker. So by the time you get to 70 or 80, that's almost gone.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
There's no force anymore. And what does it mean? It means you're on your own and your organs are on your own. There is no help from evolution anymore because evolution doesn't care about that 73 year old person, and in fact, it might select against it, get out of the way. That's why then we die, because we've been on our own for 30 or 40, 50 years by then, and things go progressively wrong. Eventually the system stops it.

Melanie Avalon:
In all of the various animal species, does the timing of when they typically reproduce and the amount of time required to foster those children or the babies, does that correlate to the lifespan of the species pretty equally?

Valter Longo:
Yeah, very much, right? Very much. There was a great experiment done 40 years ago by Michael Rose at UC Irvine, I think. And he took flies, and he took the flies that were reproducing early, and then he took the flies that were reproducing late, right? And he selected them for many generations. Kind of like saying, imagine if we went out and took women that are having children very late in their mid 40s, right? And then we took women that had children very early, 1820 years old. And then for generation, we selected these two groups, right? And then they went back and looked at it. And the flies that were reproducing earlier, they had a shorter lifespan, a much shorter lifespan, and they were very good at reproducing, but they lived a lot shorter. And those that were reproducing until later time or at a later time were selected for reproducing later time. They were not as good early on. They were 80% as good at reproducing, but they were making offspring for a lot longer. And this has been shown in lots of different organisms. And so, yes, so the reproductive span is very much associated with the lifespan.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Okay. I'm so excited right now because that question haunts me. Do you think that translates over to humans? And so, for example, this is just me being completely selfish. I don't really anticipate having children. Do you think women who don't have children, would that affect their lifespan at all?

Valter Longo:
That's actually been published in many studies. Right. So it's a little tricky because on one side there is an advantage, and then there is a disadvantage of having too many children, probably because people become very stressed out. Right. So I think in the end, there's probably not much of a difference. So that percent doesn't matter that much. And if there is a difference, it's probably a few years. But the point would be if we found a way to postpone making, let's say, women and men reproduce until much later, let's say that we found a way to allow women to reproduce until age 65, then most likely that group of women will live longer on average, or a lot longer on average.

Melanie Avalon:
So fascinating. Okay, one more last animal. Rabbit hole question. The antiaging or longevity programs or mechanisms in the immortal jellyfish, is that the same pathways, or do they have something else going on?

Valter Longo:
Well, the jellyfish, you can look at them a little bit as a colony of microorganisms, right? So if you look at a colony of yeast or bacteria, is the colony immortal? Yes, it is immortal, but does it really relate to us?

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
Well, yeah, in some ways, but it's going to be very difficult to translate that immortality of a colony. And so the jellyfish, in a sense, are like a colony that sticks together, right. And of course, it's a more complex organization. So it is closer to mammal than a colony of yeast. But let's say it's an in between situation, right? So you cut something off and it can regrow. Just like if you kill part of a colony of bacteria or yeast, it's going to regrow back. It doesn't really care that you kill some of it.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And the same is true for certain fungal colonies. Right. That have been discovered to be, I don't know, thousands of years old and been growing for thousands of years now, you could say, is that an organism or is it a group of organisms that simply keep expanding?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, got you. That makes sense. Okay. Coming back to the calorie restriction and the fasting, a foundational question. I've always had these pathways that are activated, the effects of fasting, are they the same pathways as calorie restriction? Are they different? And also, if you are engaging in different modalities, like fasting and calorie restriction or fasting and protein restriction or all the various things that might be antiaging, do you think those effects are additive or do they cancel each other out? Like, if you're doing one, are you pretty much good, or does doing multiple things add more antiaging potential?

Valter Longo:
Well, I think that, of course, the risk is that if you start doing multiple things that are improvised, that could hurt you.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So already, calorie restriction, again refers to eating 25% less than normal. Not less than people eat, but less than normal.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So then a typical male would be, I'm fairly thin and I'm 170 pounds. If I were to be calorie restricted, I would be maybe 145, right? Yeah, it's already pretty extreme. Now, even that, it's not clear that that's going to be beneficial to anyone. I mean, the study Wisconsin, among mean, Wisconsin showed lifespan extension, but the one in the NIA did not show lifespan extension. And so then you will argue that maybe calorie restriction, chronic, color restriction, like the extreme and chronic, it's going to give you a lot of benefits, but not necessarily make you live longer. And in the process, it's probably going to slow down your metabolism and your hunger, et cetera. I would say that I think that the periodic fasting mimicking diet are starting. And protein restriction is another one that I like. And time resistant eating, what Sachin panda has been talking about for decades, those are the things that I like, and I think they are additive, meaning, like if you eat for, let's say, 12 hours a day, maybe a little bit less, 11 hours a day, and then you're protein restricted, but not excessively protein restricted, you got to be careful because you can go from one problem, which is too much protein, to the opposite problem, which is too little amino acids of certain kinds.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So then timers hit the eating, let's say eating for 1112 hours a day, plus protein, the correct type of protein restriction, the correct type of diet, say pescatarian, what I call the longevity diet, plus the periodic fasting making diet, plus the exercise, that's probably 20 extra years of life expectancy.

Melanie Avalon:
You've mentioned a lot of words that we did get a lot of questions from listeners about, so I'll start bringing some of them in. So on the protein front, I think listeners and even me and my co host Vanessa, when she's here, I think there's a lot of confusion surrounding protein intake. On the one hand, we talk all the time on this show about the importance of actually like, a moderate or high protein diet for muscle growth and just supporting body composition. And I recently interviewed Dr. Gabrielle Lyon all about the benefits of protein. But then, on the other hand, we see these benefits of low protein and how protein associates with aging and dietary protein restriction, the benefits of that. So we had a question. I know, my name is Melanie. This is from another melanie, not me. She wanted to know. She said, what level do you think is low protein? Do you think it is best to always be low protein? Or is it okay to cycle between low and moderate or high protein diets? So, protein, what can you share about this issue?

Valter Longo:
Yeah. Well, first of all, the 20 years of life expectancy that I mentioned earlier is compared to, let's say, a western diet, right? So not compared to somebody that might have another type of positive intervention. So the protein, everybody loves this oversimplification. High fat, low fat eye protein, low protein, high carb, low carb. I think we need to move away from this, right? And I know people like it simple, and I can understand that, but it's not simple. The human body is extremely complex. So the solution is not going to be simple.

Melanie Avalon:
Right?

Valter Longo:
So even protein, you could be on a high protein diet and have deficiency in lots of amino acids, right? So let's say that you are on 100% legume diet, very high protein. Let's say 25% of your calories come from protein. You're still going to be malnourished, right? Because all you eat is legumes. Why? Because legumes contain very low level of a number of amino acids, which are very central for muscle and lots of other. So my recommendation. So we started clinics in the US and Europe from the foundation, and these are nonprofit clinics. And so I recommend, it's called create cures. And I recommend that people consider either talking to people that are dietitians and nutritionists at the clinic or somebody that knows what they're doing. Unfortunately, this low or high is really meaningless. And it could be very damaging because people then may say, oh, I have very good protein intake every day, so I'm good to go, not realizing that they don't, because all they're eating is legumes. Or, I have a reasonable low protein, but it's all from red meat. I'm fine. And again, now you may not be fine just because, yes, you have, say, 17% protein of your calorie in protein intake, but it's all from red meat and you still might have a problem, right? And then it gets more, even more complicated than that because there is phases of life, right? So if you're zero to three is one level of protein, then three to ten, then ten to 18, then 18, all the way to, let's say maybe 25 to 65 70, a relatively low protein diet is good, mostly vegan, but not completely vegan. But then after 65 70, then you have to go higher and have more animal proteins because otherwise you're going to be deficient in certain amino acid.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So I know it's very confusing answer, but that's because it's extremely complicated and I'm just trying to summarize it in 1 minute. But it's almost impossible, right. To really give. And that's my message here, instead of having an answer is like, please do not think you can get a manual out of 1 hour with me or somebody else because it doesn't work like that.

Melanie Avalon:
You have so many studies published, it's overwhelming and amazing. And I was going down the rabbit hole reading a lot of your recent ones and going like just what you were saying about you can't summarize things in 1 minute, even with your studies. I'll read like one study and then I want to read all the references and there's just so much information. And I was even going on one rabbit hole because it was talking about in the case that they were looking at, I think it was in monkeys, the calorie restriction was actually protective against sarcopenia, which was kind of mind blowing. So it just kind of goes to show how complicated everything is and how many layers there are.

Valter Longo:
Yeah. So calorie restriction causes muscle loss. But then some studies suggest that the lower level of muscle now is more functional than the higher. But again, most people are not going to want to look like they're starving and have more functional muscle. Right. Even there, as you just pointed out, it's a complex answer and it's best handled by somebody that can follow the person and get them to where they want to be.

Melanie Avalon:
So the muscle itself, we got a few questions about that. Laura wanted to know, is there a way to mitigate muscle loss on an extended fast? And Shelly wanted to know, does the fasting mimicking diet really protect you from losing lean body mass? Dr. Longo says the glycerin drink that's included in the prolonged kit is supposed to protect you from losing lean body mass. So what have you seen in your studies and trials with the fasting mimicking diet and muscle loss?

Valter Longo:
Yeah, we've seen that four out of four trials now are showing we're looking at about maybe 300 patients, all ages, no lean body mass loss. Right. So there is a temporary lean body mass decrease during the fasting mimicking diet. I cannot talk about commercial products, but as it is in the box.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So people, sometimes they complain about all my sugar spiked. Well, that way we tested it is protecting, I guess, muscle loss and is increasing insulin sensitivity and is actually helping reverse diabetes.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So it works the way it is right.

Melanie Avalon:
Now.

Valter Longo:
If you change it or improvise at home, who knows, right? I don't know, but I can tell you. And some of these trials we didn't do, right. Other people have done, but it works very well the way has been designed. And I think not only it works very well in protecting lean body mass loss and in causing insulin sensitization, but also I think that we worked very hard in making sure that somebody could do this for 20 or 30 years. And it'd be hard to claim that problems come from this diet because we're saying you should probably do it only maybe three or four times a year and that's it, if not less. Right. Depending who you are. Yeah. So I think that we now know we can protect lean body mass. Now, when we combine it with diabetes drugs, that's when we see the lean body mass loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
But of course, we don't see it with other diabetes drug. We see it in the diabetes drug. So we're presuming that it is the diabetes drug, it's not the fasting diet that is causing the lean body mass loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So, like, when it's combined with metformin, people tend to lose in both the.

Valter Longo:
Trial, one was with metformin, one was all diabetes drugs. Then we see the lean body mass loss, but you also see it with the drugs alone.

Melanie Avalon:
Question about those findings and results. Are you finding that nobody's experiencing overall lean body mass in the end, or are? Some people are and some people aren't, and it averages out to them not. I'm just wondering if people respond differently individually or is it pretty consistent?

Valter Longo:
It's generally consistent, but some people, we'll have to look at the scattered plots, but some people probably, on average, they don't. But some people are probably going down and some people are going up in muscle mass. Right. If somebody was doing it and they clearly saw. But to know if you're losing muscle, you will have to get a daxa or something similar. Right. Because, well, there is some devices that can measure impedimentiometry. They can measure, but those are probably not very accurate. So if you get a Daxa, you'll know if you in fact lost muscle mass and bone density. If somebody was in that category and for whatever reason they think it's a fasting making diet, then that's something to keep in mind. But the issue is also, how frequently are you doing it? Because if somebody was to do like the trials that I just told you on, diabetes is once a month for six to twelve months.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So we're not recommending anybody else does that. So that means that you're doing it six times in six months or twelve times in twelve months. And that may also be why we see some lean body mass loss. My point being that if you do it once a month for three months and then you stop, then you have all the opportunities to regain your. Even if you wear among the small percentage for whom lean body mass is reduced, then you have an opportunity to regain it.

Melanie Avalon:
Is there a difference in people who are obese or overweight versus people who are normal weight with the muscle loss?

Valter Longo:
No, there isn't. So we looked at normal weight and we looked at at least two trials normal weight and two trials on overweight and obese. No lean body mass loss in the absence of other drugs. And in the one we just finished in Italy, there was even six cycles in six months and still we didn't see any muscle and lean body mass loss.

Melanie Avalon:
You said there is a temporary loss. How fast does that come back? Is it right after they stop within one week?

Valter Longo:
We measured that one week after and it's already back.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Okay. You were talking about how people were saying that it spiked their blood sugar and the implications of that. So maybe just to revisit it one more time, because Heather literally had that exact question. She said that she's done several rounds of the FMD diet, fasting, mimicking diet. She says, I wore a CGM on a recent round and the soup spiked my glucose significantly from around 70 to 160. How is this mimicking fasting when consuming soups causes a huge insulin spike. So that actually adds another question. Is that still fasting? If you're getting that high blood sugar response?

Valter Longo:
We're not trying to have an identical effect to water only fasting. That's not our purpose. Our purpose is to make people live longer, younger and healthier.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And so from all the trials we see, so if somebody sees the 160, they will say, okay, well, this is going to make me gain weight and this is going to make me insulin resistant. But yet trial after trial after trial, we see exactly the opposite. Right? And then even trials, like, know, completely independent of us. Or, you know, all these trials have been done by other people, by big universities, because people can say, oh, there is a product behind it and there is some attempt to. These are independent trials and that's what they found. Right. So then the spikes may actually be beneficial to maintain lean body mass and maybe even they may be beneficial to get this impressive sensitization to insulin. Right, that we see in a short time. Now, we are also going to try to test versions that have a lot lower starches and they have a lot lower carbohydrates. So we'll see. But I think we've been doing this for ten years in the clinical setting and it's going to take us a while to beat the effects that we see now. For example, Heidelberg saw a one c dropping from, I think, 8.1 to 6.7. Very impressive change in diabetic patients.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And I'm sure lots of them were getting the same spikes, as this person is saying. So again, I'm very worried. People are just going home and getting the continuous glucose monitor, seeing one piece of it and then concluding that this is bad for them, very dangerous. But I'm all for people checking themselves and that's good, but don't come to conclusions because that's not the way it works. We'll see. And I wouldn't be surprised if when we tested with lower glycemic spikes, that we start seeing less effects.

Melanie Avalon:
So, interesting. And actually, I was reading last night one of your. I think it was more recent, it was a study, it was called diet composition influences the metabolic benefits of short cycles of very low caloric intake. And it was looking at very low caloric intake with a standard laboratory chow in rats compared to plant based fasting mimicking diet. I'm just curious because it was saying that a long lasting metabolomic reprogramming in serum and liver is observed in mice on very low calorie intake cycles with standard diet, but not fasting mimicking diet. Do you know the diet that I'm referring to? I'm wondering if that was a. I.

Valter Longo:
Think I'm among the.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Yes. Was that a beneficial metabolomic reprogramming with the standard chow?

Valter Longo:
This is a study by Rafa de Cabo, and this is the way, probably the graduate student that was working on it saw it. But now we have lots of mouse lifespan studies, even mice on a high fat and a high calorie diet. And this we published a few years ago. So it's taking that short window that you saw in the paper, and it's taking a lifelong.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And we're showing that, remarkably, it is a natural metabolism paper from two years ago. Remarkably, the fasting making diet only once a month is able to reverse all the problems caused by the high fat, high sugar, high calorie diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So the heart effects, the insulin sensitization, the insulin resistance, and the effects on cholesterol effects. Yeah. So I would say now we have lots of mouse, rat and human data. It's pretty consistent. It's almost like it's a little bit too good to be true. So I would now, hopefully, we're going to get some negative results, because so far it's been working even much better than we expected. I always think whenever I saw the Heidelberg study, they did something very similar to the paper you're referring to. They did five days of a mediterranean diet a month. Right. In diabetic patients. Five days of a mediterranean diet a month against five days of the FMD. And when I look at the paper, I think they probably did it to show that the FMD is pointless. The mediterranean diet is going to work. I mean, I don't know. Right. But I suspect that that's what they were trying to do. But sure enough, the mediterranean diet is worthless five days a month. And the FMD causes remarkable effect. And go look at it, because it's really impressive differences between this maybe a little bit calorie restricted, very healthy diet and the FMD.

Melanie Avalon:
So now I'm super curious, in your history of running all these trials, what was the biggest, surprising finding for you? Or it doesn't have to be the biggest, because that's a big question. But what was, like, a big, surprising finding for you maybe sometime where you thought you would find one thing and you found the opposite or. Yeah. What has been surprising in your FMD trials?

Valter Longo:
I think that the effects on cancer have been remarkable and thus far. And I think at the beginning, we will have expected kind of like what you see with the ketogenic diet. Right. So you see working against cancers, lots of cancers, but actually helping some cancers grow faster.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So the ketone bodies hurt a lot of cancers and help some. And I expected that from the fasting mixing diet. I truly did. And I'm surprised that after 20 years, we haven't seen that. Right. And I expect it. But really, like, another two papers were published just this week on the fasting McGinn diet and cyclic fasting. It just keeps on working in all the models that have been tested. So, for example, a paper that just came out in cancer research this week by a chinese group showing that the fasting mimicking diet is causing b cells to start attacking the cancer. So another novel colorectal cancer in this case, right, in mice. Yes. So I think that that's surprising, right, after all these labs and all these attempts, and nobody yet has come up with negative effects, but I'm sure it's going to happen. But it hasn't happened yet. So, very happy about that, but also very surprising.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you have a theory as to what the fasting mimicking diet might be circumventing or avoiding? That is the problem for why ketogenic diets sometimes support cancer.

Valter Longo:
My theory is the following. Is it possible the starvation for human beings represented an opportunity, kind of like sleep, right? So an opportunity to get rid of damage component. Right. Something that is under the force of natural selection that I mentioned earlier for the purpose of distinguishing good from bad. And so you only do it during fasting and not necessarily when you have a lot of food. Right. And why? Maybe because the bad becomes food for the person.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
It's a lot of speculation, but is it possible because, let's say precancerous cells, cancer cell, autoimmune cell, insulin resistance cell, senescent cells. So imagine all of this is food, right? So you don't want to throw it away. So maybe because we starve so frequently, maybe that was left around to become food when we don't have any food coming from the outside.

Melanie Avalon:
Because I'm not sure exactly which cancers are supported by ketogenic diets. But do you know if they've done calorie restricted ketogenic diets in those situations?

Valter Longo:
No. These are normal calorie ketogenic diet, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah.

Valter Longo:
So of course, the FMD is a calorie restricted ketogenic diet, but they've done usually normal calories, right? Yeah. So of course the normal calorie, if there was a program that was signaling go after the damaged cell because we're starving. So the normal calories now will prevent that, right. And say, well, we're not starving, we're just getting the calories from somewhere else. And so maybe that's why we see both. Because, yes, the ketone bodies may be part of the program to kill cancer cells, but the ketone Bodies may also be part of the fuel for certain cancers.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. And then speaking of self eating and breaking down these things, so we do talk about autophagy a lot on this show. And that's another thing where I think it is so presented as black and white and autophagy is on, autophagy is off, when in reality, autophagy is probably occurring all the time to different levels, and it's probably way more complicated than the way it is often presented. So in your trials, can you actually measure autophagy? So do you guys measure autophagy? Candice wanted to know when autophagy peaks. She says she's seen charts online, but who knows what type of science that's based on.

Valter Longo:
Yeah. Now there are trials to look at the FMD and autophagy. We see it in mice after a few days and probably maybe by day three, that's when. And it also depends in which cells, in which organs. So it's going to take a while to know how much autophagy is going on in how many systems. But autophagy, I think is just a small part of what I was talking about earlier, this shrinking re expansion. So one of the components is autophagy, but there is probably also cellular killing, as I was mentioning earlier, and using cells for fuel, the reprogramming of cells, the stem cell activation, the stem cell cells renewal. So there's probably a big program to remove damaged components and then regenerate. And autophagy, I speculate maybe 20% of the whole operation.

Melanie Avalon:
Got you. For the stem cell piece. Do you find that it affects both the release of stem cells? Does it increase the amount of stem cells? How all, does it affect the stem cells in the body?

Valter Longo:
Yeah. So of course, in humans, we're just beginning to look at it, and we did have some initial evidence that we published on circulating stem cells. But in mice, for example, the metropoietic stem cells, those in the blood that give rise to all immune cells, they increase in number and then they increase in self renewal properties, meaning they start producing more of themselves.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So stem cells get activated and make more stem cells. And then this is associated then in the mouse with a rejuvenation of the immune system and a restoration of damaged immune system, more stem cells and more active stem cells. But in some other organs, we don't see the stem cells going up. We see the reprogramming of cells happening and the Yamanaka factors. So we think that it can go both ways. One way to achieve it, more stem cells, another way to achieve it, take a somatic cell, reprogram it into an embryonic like cell, and then do the job and then go back to a differentiated cell.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. So fascinating. We got a lot of questions about women specifically. So I guess first, as a foundational question for me, when you're doing these, the majority of your studies are they split populations of male, female. Do you test in women specifically? So are there sex differences?

Valter Longo:
We haven't seen it yet. Now, we really tested the FMD on thousands of patients in informal clinical trials, right. At least over a thousand, probably between cancer, diabetes and all the other diseases, Alzheimer, et cetera. Probably, you know, maybe 1500. So far, there wasn't, there hasn't been anything that is so evident that it works in male, doesn't work in female, or vice versa. But I think as we have more bigger numbers for specific changes. So let's say, for example, a one c or fasting glucose or cholesterol, then at some point, I think once we have, let's say, 300 males and 300 females that have done, say, three to six cycles of the fasting making diet, then we can go and compare them and see is there actually a difference in the response of males and females? But clearly they both respond. And all the trials thus far have been mixed with males and females.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll read two of the questions I got about it specifically. So April, she said, great timing. She said, I just started his book today, and we'll do a round of prolonged when I'm done. I'm curious if his guidance differs for perimenopausal women versus other groups, but I'll see if he covers that in the book. And then Tabitha, she said, do extended fasts or fasting mimicking diets affect women's hormones? And should they only be done at certain times of the monthly cycle? Curious to know, especially during the perimenopause time of life. So do you have any guidance there?

Valter Longo:
Yeah. So lots of people are asking about this. We haven't got reports of, let's say, in the cycle. The FMD is done early on versus late. We haven't gotten reports from people saying it clearly works best in one part of the cycle or another. And so far, we haven't tested around menopause, before menopause and after menopause, but it's certainly been tested on women in all those stages. And thus far, we see pretty clear results in all stages. Also, because some of the trials might have had half of the women pre menopause and half of the woman postmenopause. And it works as a group. And so I think we will have seen problems if it was just specific for a stage of life. But again, as I was saying earlier, and I encourage people to write to us and say, I'm in this stage and this is not working for me. And you never know. This could motivate a clinical trial on a specific population, but thus far we haven't seen it, but it doesn't mean that it's not there. So it could be that something works a lot better in certain groups, but I think that the effect is so powerful that probably most people benefit regardless of the stage. But, yeah, maybe some will benefit more.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, got you. Yeah, that'll be exciting to see future as you get more and more and more feedback with that. That actually made me think of another question. When you're talking about when to do it, age of onset of implementing fasting, mimicking diet, or really anything, but I guess I'll keep it specific to fasting, mimicking diet. Is there a difference in when people start implementing this as far as the potential benefits that they see, or is it pretty much whenever you start it, you'll be good?

Valter Longo:
Well, I think that it all depends, right. For most people, they're going to have some issue. It's going to be beneficial. Now, we see effects on cholesterol, some of it. A bunch of this has not been published yet, but let's say we see clear effects on an ldl, we see effects on blood pressure, a1c, we see effect on abdominal weight. Again, no loss of lean, body mass. So if you think about all those things and see reactive protein in multiple trials, it goes down, inflammation goes down. So I would say the great majority of people are going to have some issue in this arena. If you think about the Americans, people in America, 75% are overweight and obese, right? And maybe probably 85% have some weight issue. So that means that 85% of the people will clearly benefit. Now, we've been talking about, if you just think about the weight and nothing else, right? But probably 95% of people benefit if you think about the weight and all these risk factors for diseases. So we've been talking about 20 to 70 now. We just finished the Alzheimer's trial in people up to 85. And I think the results are surprising in a good way. We expect that people having problems, but we didn't see that and becoming frail and we didn't see that. And also we're doing trials in the very young one, down to six years of age, in the type one diabetes trial in Gaslini children's hospital. And so now we've been talking to people about the possibility of running a trial in the young, maybe not so young, but maybe like say 14 to 18. Is it possible that maybe this is a great way to give them these five days of a vegan diet? It's a great way to educate the brain of a younger individual without forcing them to eat less or change their diet. And so with the hope that they get there on their own. Right. That's another thing that we didn't talk about. But these five days of a vegan diet, low calorie fasting, mimicking vegan diet, they have such a beneficial effect on people that we see lots of people basically gravitating more towards vegan nutrition. Could it be that in children, in the teenagers, this is going to be a good way to train the brain to behave in a different way without imposing diets?

Melanie Avalon:
I imagine that's a lot harder to conduct those trials. Probably getting like consent, I guess, or getting it approved to do it in the younger populations.

Valter Longo:
It was not an issue. But in the Gaslini children's hospital in Genova, Italy, is inpatient. Right. So they have to check into the hospital. But these are very young, like down to six years of age and with type one diabetes.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So, yeah, I think that we've been talking here at Chla with different faculty doing in the 14 year old, 14 to 18. I think it should be pretty straightforward. I mean, they're still getting 800 to 1100 calories a day, so the risk is really minimal. But, yeah, of course, I love to go through their ethical committee approval as.

Melanie Avalon:
Far as actually doing the fasting and mimicking diet because I realized we kind of just jumped in. Could you just tell listeners briefly what the ProLon program looks like? And then I have a specific question about how it can be implemented. But in general, it's five days or. Yeah. Would you like to just tell listeners a little bit what they should expect?

Valter Longo:
The FMD that we've been testing in lots of trials, there is different version. There is a version for Alzheimer's. There's higher calorie. There's a version for cancer. It's a lot lower calories. There's a version for autoimmunities that it's a different composition. But let's say the one for normal people that's been tested so much, I cannot name commercial names, but let's say that one is 1100 calories or so on day one, and then it goes down to 800 calories on day 2345. It's a low calorie, low protein, high fat, plant based, and it's relatively high in carbohydrates, even though it's very low carbohydrate. But I mean, composition wise, it's relatively high, and that's by design. I did not want people to cycle between high ketogenic state and low ketogenic state. And it's maybe out of being over cautious, but that's the way I like it. So I was always worried that if you get to severe ketogenic states or very high ketone bodies and then back and you keep going back and forth enough times, that could eventually cause problems. And I don't have any evidence for that, but I was afraid of that. And that's why, by design, the FMD is relatively high in carbohydrates, even though, because it's so restricted, it's still a very low level of carbohydrates.

Melanie Avalon:
So that possibly sort of answered my question. My question was, so I personally do a one meal a day approach with intermittent fasting. I think I talked about this before, last time I had you on the show, but I eat like, very high protein and then I fast during the day. So with the fasting mimicking diet commercial version, would I be able to do it in a one meal a day approach and have all the meals at once, or it sounds like that would be the antithesis of what you were potentially nervous about happening.

Valter Longo:
Not necessarily because the FMD, again, let's say that you do it three times a year. That's not really going to. So you could do it either way, right? You could try to compress it. It'll be hard to do for you. But if you already do it like that, it is possibly doable in one meal a day, and this is only for five days, and then you go back to whatever it is that you do, right. So I think that it can be done like that, but it would not be easy, let's say, to have the two soups and the bars and all the other things that are in there all in one shot. But it's doable. But it's also not necessary, right. For those, say, 15 days a year, you could have your regular meals, say, morning, noon and evening.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically, the comparison between daily intermittent fasting all the time versus fasting mimicking diet however many times a year, but then not fasting the rest of the time. I mean, I don't know if it's a comparison where you're like, oh, this one's better, this one's not, but you're seeing similar benefits. I don't want to put words in your mouth. What are your thoughts on that comparison? Because a lot of the audience is doing daily intermittent fasting.

Valter Longo:
Yeah, I mean, the daily intermittent is not intermittent fasting. I think I like such impanda's time restricted eating, meaning like, eat within so many hours a day. And I think that's a very good practice in addition to the periodic fasting making diet. So I recommend 1112 hours of food consumption because as you get to the 16 hours, you start seeing gallstone issues. If you skip breakfast, you see this is associated with a shorter lifespan. So the breakfast keepers, they tend to live shorter than the non breakfast keeper. Now, of course, it could be that the breakfast keeper have a terrible lifestyle, et cetera, et cetera, but that's not a good start. And this is why I usually say, if you're going to skip, skip dinner and fast for 16 hours or whatever, probably better not to skip breakfast. Now, it doesn't mean that you cannot be a breakfast keeper and live to 100, but the epidemiological data suggests that in general, the breakfast keepers live shorter, have more cardiovascular disease, et cetera. They're compatible. So you could do, let's say eleven, let's say twelve or 13 to 16 hours of fasting per day regardless. Right? And then on top of that, as I was saying earlier, add, say, three times a year, fasting mimicking diet. So the two things are expected to be additive, if not even synergistic, potentially.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, got you. Yeah. The breakfast thing is something where I just feel like it's so complicated. And with the epidemiological data, I just wonder if it's a lot of healthy user bias, like we've been told so long that skipping breakfast is bad. So are people who are breakfast skippers engaging in other lifestyle habits? And then a lot of the studies are funded by the breakfast cereal food industries.

Valter Longo:
No, they're not. They're. No. In fact, we did the same thing. We did the analysis and got scooped by a chinese group and we saw the same with the enhance the CDC database. Very clear effects. Don't forget that these epidemiological studies adjust for smokers and adjust for bad behavior. And on top of that, I always ask the question, why doesn't that, let's say they have bad behavior, some bad behavior, which we do not see. Why doesn't a good behavior, which would be the fasting, now, counterbalance the bad behavior? Right. Why don't we see them at least live normal? We see them live shorter.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And that's where you got to become concerned. Right? Let's say they have bad behavior. Well, 16 hours of fasting is clearly beneficial. There's nobody's arguing with that. Why doesn't that help them at least live normal?

Melanie Avalon:
I see what you're saying. So not necessarily fasting studies, but if there are studies on breakfast skippers, they are technically then fasting a certain amount of time. So technically they shouldn't see the issues. Yeah.

Valter Longo:
So most of them are going to be fasting for 1416, 18 hours a day. Right. Because they skip breakfast and they've made, I don't know what time they had dinner. I'm not saying that 16 hours is bad, but I'm saying this breakfast skipping is definitely not a good idea. And also there's papers that I actually wrote a little piece on about a year ago showing people started eating at 12:00, they were hospitalized and they either started eight or twelve, the same identical diet. Right. And those that started at twelve had a lower energy expenditure and they were increased hunger.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And so now we not only have epidemiological studies, now we have the second pillar, clinical studies showing why that could be a problem. Right. So start at twelve. Now you're going to be more hungrier and your metabolism slows.

Melanie Avalon:
Did they actually end up eating more still?

Valter Longo:
I don't think they. No, they were being fed the same exact food. They brought them to the hospital and they gave them the food. So then the very controlled study, right? Yeah. So then, of course, if somebody only eats once a day, like in your case, well, eventually you're going to be able to control it and still have benefits. But in the general population, just that change caused problems. Multiple problems.

Melanie Avalon:
I was thinking of the studies where they skip breakfast and they are hungrier, but they don't ultimately end up eating more because they can't literally compensate for that entire skipped meal by making it up later.

Valter Longo:
No, they knew exactly what they were eating because they did it in the hospital. Right? Yeah. So then this was very controlled. So it's very clear that the results and multiple trials actually were in the same issue. This cell metabolism from about a year ago, multiple trials were showing the same thing.

Melanie Avalon:
Very interesting. Okay, well, one more last topic. I want to be really respectful of your time. So many people just wanted to know, in general, your blanket recommendations for lifespan and longevity. So some rapid fire, just some quick questions. Stephanie wanted to know, how can I live to 100 or sorry, to 180?

Valter Longo:
Good luck. Tell me. If you find out, then tell me. But to 110, I would say read the book. All the profits go to, all. My part goes to the foundation so we can help people live longer. And so I don't make a penny out of it. But yeah, the longevity diet goes through it. But in general, number one pescatarian diet, fish plus vegan, maybe fish three times a week, high nourishment, low protein, let's say age 20 to 70, and then you go. Moderate protein intake, wash the amino acids, because if you have vegan, you cannot just have legumes. You have to have legumes, seeds, and nuts varieties so that you get the right amino acids. Then 12 hours a day of time. Recipe, eating maybe 13 hours a day of fasting. Say twelve to 13 hours a day of fasting. If you're overweight or obese, skip lunch like I do, Monday through Friday, and then you can have the normal three meals on Saturday and Sunday. Then 150 minutes a week of exercise, plus an hour a day of walking, and then three cycles of fasting. Five day fasting, making diet per year. Yes. So those are the major recommendations.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, Dr. Longo, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. I've just been forever grateful for so long, and I've been such a follower of your work. And like I said, I was overwhelmed looking at your list of studies. And I'm really excited to see everything that comes in the future. So just thank you. I will continue to follow your work. Hopefully we can bring you back on in the future.

Valter Longo:
Sounds good. Thanks a lot.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Bye bye. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 21

Episode 57: Dr. Valter Longo!: The Fasting Mimicking Diet, Eating For Longevity, High Vs. Low Protein Diets, Ancestry Diets, Meat Vs. Plant Diets, Rebuilding The Gut, Food Tolerances, Mindset And The Immune System, The Blue Zones, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 57 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Hi Friends! You can support us and help keep our podcast and research going, by pledging on Patreon! Every dollar helps!! It would seriously mean the world and help SO much!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

ABOUT Dr. Valter Longo

Dr. Valter Longo, Professor of Gerontology and Biological Science and Director of The Longevity Institute at the School of Gerontology at USC, is one of the world's premier experts on living longer, healthier lives. He's been dubbed "The Guru of Longevity" by TIME Magazine. Dr. Longo is interested in understanding the fundamental mechanisms of aging in yeast, mice and humans by using genetics and biochemistry techniques and identifying the molecular pathways conserved from simple organisms to humans that can be modulated to protect against multiple stresses and treat or prevent cancer, Alzheimer’s Disease and other diseases of aging. The focus is on the signal transduction pathways that regulate resistance to oxidative damage in yeast and mice.

Dr. Longo's new book, The Longevity Diet: Discover the New Science Behind Stem Cell Activation and Regeneration to Slow Aging, Fight Disease, and Optimize Weight, is the one-stop guide to his research and philosophies on aging healthier and extending life expectancy. It's medical approach is based on his 5 Pillars of Longevity, where each pillar looks at several key factors that influence our chances of optimal health. The practical application of which combines a healthy, every day, pescatarian eating plan (the "Longevity Diet") with a 5-day fasting-mimicking diet, or FMD, done intermittently throughout the year. 

Follow Valter Longo on Facebook

SHOW NOTES

Dr. Longo's Background

What Are The Longevity Diet And Fasting Mimicking Diet (FMD?)

How Does The FMD Compare To Intermittent Fasting?

How Does The FMD Compare To Keto?

When Should Someone Do A FMD?

What Are The Health Benefits Of the FMD?

What Is Prolon?

Dr. Longo's Prolon FMD

How Does Dr. Longo Feel About Homemade Versions Of The FMD?

Melanie's Blog Post: The Fasting-Mimicking Diet: Eat Your Way Through A Long Fast?

How Does Dr. Longo Feel About Homemade Versions Of The FMD?

What Is Juventology?

How And Why Should You Eat Based On Your Ancestry?

What Commonalities Are There In The Blue Zones?

How Far Back Do You Need To Look In Determining Ancestral Diet?

What About People Who Suffer With GI Distress From Lots Of Plant

What About People Who Thrive On Higher Protein Diets?

Tips For Rebuilding Gut And Adding In Foods? 

Tips For Rebuilding Gut And Adding In Foods?

Should You Use Probiotics?

Why Are We Seeing So Many Degernative Diseases Today?

How Does Mindset Affect Our Food And Immune System?

What Does The Longevity Diet Look Like? 

What Are The Five Pillars Of Longevity?

Why Do We Need Higher Protein When Older?

Centenarians Who Eat Whatever They Want (Genetics Explained)

Three Principals To Support Health And Longevity?

Dr. Longo's Typical Diet... What Has He Eaten Today? 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

REFERENCES

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jun 23

Episode 427 – The Psychology Of Food Fear, Fasting For Gut Health, The Role Of Diagnoses, Restriction Vs. Intuition, Sleep, Light, And Stress, Mindset And Physical Healing, Confidence With Gut-Safe Eating, Healing Protocols That Work, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 427 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC


On this week's special episode, Melanie is interviewed by Dane Johnson on his podcast, How I Healed My Gut with Dane Johnson.

Dane Johnson is the Founder/CEO of Crohn's Colitis Lifestyle and a Board Certified Nutritionist specializing in reversing Crohn’s Disease and Ulcerative Colitis. Dane’s story ignited through extreme personal hardship fighting for his life from a fierce Crohn’s/Colitis diagnosis nearly taking his life in December 2014.


To date, Dane and his impassioned team of specialists have created the most success stories in the world for reversing IBD symptoms using his signature S.H.I.E.L.D. Program. His international IBD consulting firm is one of the few organizations in the world that only treat IBD, and see roughly 100+ international IBD cases a week!


He has successfully worked with kids as young as 3 and adults 70 years young! He has unlocked great success no matter a client's diet preference, medication use, past surgeries, or past failures using natural remedies. His team at CCLifestyle has successfully helped thousands of clients with life-threatening cases, severe symptoms such as 20+ BM’s a day, or chronic weight loss take their lives back by focusing on natural methods.


His passion, unique experience, and niche in the field of IBD have empowered him to create unparalleled value for real, long-term symptom relief for all those suffering from Inflammatory Bowel Disease.


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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)




Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 427 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. We have a very special episode for you today. This is actually a conversation that I had on Dane Johnson's podcast, which is called How I Healed My Gut. He interviewed me about my story when it came out. We talked a lot about intermittent fasting. We also talked a lot about the role of mindset and your perspective when it comes to health issues, food fears, living a normal life, whether or not you should follow a restrictive diet. It was a really powerful conversation, so I figured it was a perfect thing to share with you guys on this show. And if you would like to hear more from Dane and hear about his story, he actually was on this show before. That was episode 364. We will put a link to that in the show notes. And now without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation in which Dane Johnson interviews me about my story with gut health and intermittent fasting.

Dane Johnson
Melanie, thank you so much for joining me today. Discuss your journey with functional medicine, biohacking after interviewing the best biohackers and functional doctors all around the world these last few years.

I'm so excited to share what you've experienced, what you've learned. Thank you so much for being here.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for having me, Dane. I seriously adore what you're doing.

Your energy, your motivation for people is so incredible. And then what you're actually doing, changing people's lives with the whole gut stuff. And I've been there, or I'm kind of still there, so I'm happy to be here and share with listeners.

Dane Johnson
Thank you so much, man. I'm so happy for today.

Today, guys, we're going to be talking about, you know, what really works in biohacking? What's the fluff? Where can our money be best spent? You know, how effective can restrictive diets be in your success? And where do you put rubber to road? So I'm so excited to dive in. And Melanie, I love you for this topic because, you know, I was on your podcast a year and a half ago, we were just talking about you've interviewed everybody. You've, you know, spent time with the biggest, the baddest, the smartest, most successful biohackers and functional medicine practitioners in the world. What has that been like for you? What are some of the biggest takeaways that you think have impacted your gut health in your life for optimal success?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's it's so surreal. Honestly, it's especially surreal because I experienced my own health issues, including predominantly gut health issues.

That's kind of what was the catalyst for sending me down a journey of a black hole of health issues. And that was before I I mean, was it before I was podcasting? Yeah, it was before I was podcasting. So at that point in time, I was just a consumer of all this information and a relentless researcher. So it's very surreal today to be podcasting regularly. And all these people, I was reading their books and absorbing their blogs and listening to their podcasts. Now the majority of them are my good friends, which is very crazy to me.

But yeah, should I start with my story or like what I've learned? Where do you want to take it?

Dane Johnson
Start more with what you were going through with your health and how that's transcended into starting to use these methods with diet and supplements and biohacking and nervous system, all this. But tell us a bit about your story and how you came to this place.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, sure. My first interest in the body came through the conventional typical method of dieting, so I was always trying different diets growing up. I was never overwhelmingly overweight, but I would want to lose, you know, a few pounds. So I would do things like calorie counting and crazy really had a profound effect on me until I tried a low-carb diet, and at that time it was Atkins. And that's when I first realized that changing what I ate not only could affect my weight, but also had these other effects on my metabolic health, my energy levels, my skin. And then I just got really obsessed with trying all the different things. I started doing intermittent fasting about a decade ago. That was a game changer for me, again with weight loss, health, energy, vitality, everything like that.

I adopted a paleo diet that even further increased my experience, and then everything sort of crashed and burned. I graduated from USC in Southern California from film and theater school, and I was high on adrenaline, loving life, and I started not feeling well, and it's hard to remember exactly what happened when. I do know that the gut issue started when I got food poisoning at a like a Japanese restaurant, and what's interesting about that experience was I got food poisoning. I remember I had like colonoscopy. I was very young. They didn't really find anything, and that procedure kind of like cleared me out and fixed me momentarily, but I felt off after that. I know that's a very common experience for people. Like they have some sort of, you know, catalyzing event, and then they never quite feel the same. So after that I felt off. I got diagnosed with SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, and from there I got prescribed Rifaximin, which is the antibiotic that specifically targets the small intestine to wipe out the overgrowth and the small intestine. So prior to that, I would eat food, and I didn't really think about it after that. Like I didn't think about if it was digesting. I didn't think about its transit time during my system. I just ate food, and then if I had a stomach ache or didn't feel well, I wasn't fixated on the actual food transit, what was happening in my gut, all of that. After Rifaximin, and I don't want to scare people away from it because I know that for a lot of people with SIBO, it actually really really helps them, and it's like a game changer. For me, it wasn't. I think I didn't have the, because I know there's like methane dominant versus hydrogen dominant bacteria and things like that, I don't think I was the candidate for it. So after that is when I started getting neurotic. Like I felt like food would just sit in me. I felt like I wasn't digesting it. I developed a, honestly, like a psychological complex surrounding it because I started getting severely worried about being constipated, about food not moving through me.

Melanie Avalon
I just felt toxic, and it was not a good time. And I've been seeing a therapist for years and years. And honestly, the reason I started seeing a therapist probably that long ago, you know, eight years ago or so was because I was like, I gotta tackle the psychological issue of this because I can't be scared of food. This is not this is not the way to live.

So that's also when I started really experimenting with diets like a low FODMAP diet, which I actually adopted and to this day works really well for me. That's when I started experimenting with digestive support and things like that. And it ended up being like a myriad mosaic of a lot of not good things that I had going on. So it wasn't just the gut. It was also I realized I had mercury poisoning, I realized I was anemic, I realized I had carbon monoxide poisoning from my apartment. So it was like a lot of stuff. But that ultimately led to my interest in the biohacking field, because I just wanted to feel better. So I was researching, I was trying all the things. And the more things I tried, the more things I found that worked. And I just started I started getting a desire to share all of this with everybody, which led to podcasting.

So that was a lot I can pause there. But that's like the journey that the dark part of the journey.

Dane Johnson
Yeah, and I know there's so much light in there, but you said some powerful things I want everyone listening to really take note because it's gonna help change your life and your perspective around inflammatory bowel disease Melanie they did a colonoscopy. They didn't find in diagnose you with something but yet Food fear still happened. You're still having chronic GI issues. You couldn't figure out still getting skin issues low energy You know going through periods of chronic diarrhea that would come or go or constipation But they didn't give you a name This is all the same experience that other people who've been identified as a chronic incurable disease are our feeling and are going through So the big point here is just because they gave you her name or didn't give you a name doesn't mean you're not going through Something real that's serious.

That's hard and And you won't still develop the same type of traumas, you know I think that's also what what happened here Melanie what you're talking about and I just want to hold space for anyone out there Who's you know has this has been identified as I have this incurable disease that even people who don't have that same? Stamp on their forehead by a doctor who just gave their subjective opinion Can still go through very similar experiences. We all Have our own health batters or struggles and we can learn from each other And maybe we're all not that different because I don't know about you Melanie, but for years it was Oh, I can't relate with someone like Melanie because they don't they a doctor didn't tell her she had IBD But in reality how much is the same and you said well, I had other issues. I had anemia I had heavy metal issues. How many people who've been stamped on the on the head with IBD have anemia have heavy metal issues Have skin issues have it may be histamine issues is all that wrapped up in the word IDD or the phrase so I just want to take this moment that we all can take our power back and realize it doesn't matter if Someone stamps you on the forehead with this diagnosis or not. It doesn't save us from what we're going through and we all have to take this Experience into our hands to become self-empowered become the CEO of our health, which I think Melanie what a lot of what you've done and We can relate just because someone doesn't diagnose with the same disease doesn't mean we can't learn from each other I mean Melanie you've put so much work into this without a diagnosis.

How did that feel for you? When you were you know, were you almost begging that they just called it something or were you kind of still happy that ah They're not giving me this name that I have to carry around like a badge of honor for the rest of my life

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I'm so glad you drew attention to that. And it's so interesting because, so I got the catch-all diagnosis of IBS, which is what they give you when they don't know what it is. And it's so interesting because it goes both ways. So on the one hand, people don't get the diagnosis they're looking for. And so then they don't know what to do. They feel like they can't take agency or they feel like they're being written off.

And then on the other hand, I think people can over identify with the diagnosis. So when they finally said that I had SIBO, I think I grabbed that and I ran with that and not in a healthy way. Like I started thinking, okay, I have SIBO. Like I just thought about it 24 seven. All I thought about was how I have this overgrowth of bacteria and I'm feeding the bad bacteria. And I went into this mission to kill the bacteria. I've taken all the antibacterials all the time, mostly natural ones. But it's like I flipped to the other side of fear where I felt like the label defined me. And I'm trying to remember when, I think I might've just come out of exhaustion, honestly, because that can do it. But I definitely had a moment where I was like, I'm not gonna try to like keep killing the bacteria for the rest of my life. I'm just gonna try to heal and focus on the good things I can put in my body rather than always being in this defensive fear-based killing mode of the bacteria. And that was actually for me personally, and it's a different journey for everybody. But for me personally, that was like, I turned a corner with that. And that was really helpful.

And I'm trying to remember, you know what, this is really crazy timing. It might have been reading Dr. Michael Ruscio's Healthy Gut, Healthy You. And the reason this is crazy timing is I'm interviewing him next week. And I was just like reflecting on how far I've come in that journey. But yeah, it's hard. So much of it is the mindset surrounding it and the identity and the labels. So you nailed it with that. It's so confusing.

Dane Johnson
This is something we all can learn from because maybe in today's episode, we can start finding more common ground than we ever thought was possible. We can take down dividers of labels and realize that we all have a human gut, prone to diarrhea or constipation or cramp or not feeling like food is sitting with us, right? Or skin issues or anxiety or poor digestion or malabsorption leading to anemia. Does the label really matter?

When we can all sit down and say, we all have a human gut. How do we get real results and how do we get imbalanced with that? You know, that's one of the answers right there. You said it, Melanie. You turned a corner when you let go of the fear and maybe a bit for you in that personal experience, it was becoming a neurotic nature of killing, killing, killing. Started finding a balance or homeostasis in your lifestyle that kept that SIBO more in line naturally. You didn't have to try. It just was because I, you know, maybe adding in probiotics or washing sugars or low FODMAP, intermittent fasting, all that can be really beneficial. So now it just became, you know, our lives, how we live, now we choose to wake up and go to bed and how we choose to eat needs to be something that makes us both happy and healthy. So that really says that needs to balance our health. You know, it needs to balance the gut. And that's what that turning, you found a balanced way where it was no longer work. Is that right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. I think for me, what really worked was a much more holistic picture and approach to my health rather than myopic view where I'm just targeting this one thing with these supplements or, you know, having a broader picture and focusing on my diet in general, what am I eating, what are the foods that make me feel good, and then focusing on broader things like sleep. I mean, I went down the rabbit hole with that and supporting my sleep and and all these other, you know, biohacking type things in my life that just make me feel and help me feel healthier. It's been so helpful.

And I've had to work on, I still eat, it's funny, like if you look at what I eat, it looks restrictive. I am very happy now with what I eat. I exist within the world of foods that I like, and it's what makes me feel good. And so there's been a journey there of there's so much like there's just so much judgment of ourselves and there's worry about what other people are going to think. And so I think just knowing what works for me has been one of the most helpful approaches.

Dane Johnson
Can we unpack that statement? I think this is something that will really serve us all.

Can we unpack that statement of, it looks like I'm on a restrictive diet that would make other people miserable. And when I tell them what I eat, it makes other people give you probably these wide eyes of how do you do this? But then you said something beautiful. You said, I'm in balance with this. I love it. It makes me happy and it makes me feel good. So again, no major diagnosis. SIBO is a state that needs to be fixed in the gut. IBS, as you said, IBS, IBD, a lot of it's, well, we don't know the root cause. IDK equals IBD or IBS, right? And you took it upon yourself to continue to go after a lifestyle that make you happy and healthy. So how did you go from I'm a normal person, you, whatever I want to, I'm now going to choose eating this way as a lifestyle. I'm not on a clock. I'm not doing a 30 day cleanse. I'm not, this is how I like to live and I'm happy here.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's it's really interesting because I'm reflecting on my journey through that and it's been such a long journey of making conscious food choices. So like I said, when I started doing low carb in college, that's when I started making macronutrient related food choices. So doing low carb. And then when I did paleo, that's when I started making whole foods based food choices. So only eating whole foods. And then I went I in college, I kind of did a carnivore stand again before it was before it was a thing. But that was more like an experiment. So it's been years and years of existing within food choice paradigms.

It's taken a while, though, to separate the label. So for the longest time, and I already said it on this show, I said I eat a low FODMAP diet at the same time. What I eat is like it covers food we would have eaten as natural hunter gatherers. So I don't even I almost don't know what the benefit is to calling it low FODMAP because that makes it sound almost more restrictive than it is. Because basically what I eat is I eat tons of meat, tons of seafood, like cucumbers, I eat a lot of fruit, broccoli, blueberries. So I'm eating a wider range of whole foods. And it's what works for me. I do like you mentioned it. I do deal with it. So if I go out to eat at a restaurant, for example, I have had to work on having confidence to just order what I want to order, which ends which usually ends up being like, can I have a steak completely plain, like not all the the oils and the and all of that stuff? And can I just have, you know, a simple like, you know, spinach on the side? And one of the hardest things I think with people who struggle with chronic disease and especially gotten health issues, there's just dealing with it yourself of feeling better. And then there's the existing in society. And how do you feel OK about that? Because the modern world is they eat a very different very differently often times.

Dane Johnson
You know, but I like, I love what you're saying about, it makes you happy. That is what I want everyone to walk away with.

I want you to build a nutrition plan that makes you happy and helping people and realize, just think back 150 years ago, there were no food options. It was this or starve. It was, we're gonna hunt this animal for meat and there was only a carbohydrate in the summer, right? Been that when, you know, photosynthesis were happening and the, you know, the plants are making glycogen and all the fruits and all this, all these vegetables, some of them. And so we've never had such options and that might be part of the anxiety is that we're supposed to have Korean food on Tuesday and Mexican food on Wednesday and a burger with fries on Thursday and then Friday's sushi. And it's like, this is, you need an iron gut, especially under the process of all this. That when you've been sick like me or Melanie and your gut's been injured, you no longer desire to eat foreign fake food that does not serve your vibrance and your ability to stand up and say, my gut feels good, my energy is good. I feel like I'm gonna sleep well tonight. I feel a good bowel movement coming on. That is worth 10 times more. And when you own that and say, I don't care what other people do, this is what makes me happy. And as long as my lab work looks good and I'm in a good place with my symptoms and goals, it doesn't matter. And you've done the hard work, Melanie, of getting to that place, of divorcing all of the social norms or social expectations of who you're supposed to be, how you're supposed to party and what you're supposed to order at a restaurant.

Melanie Avalon
I really I could not agree more. It's it's so interesting.

So you spoke about, you know, the the variety that we're supposed to today so we know we know evolutionarily that Variety and it's a double-edged sword or there's two sides to it because we do know that variety is Likely very beneficial for the gut microbiome. So there's that variety in plants and and whole food sources and at the same time variety in processed food Variety tells our brain to eat more because Work like from an evolutionary perspective if there was a new source of food It's a potential new source of food. So every time we get a new flavor a new Taste it's gonna make us want to eat more That's why people can actually they might be full and then they switch to a different food and they get hungry again like dessert You know like you're full but you can have dessert so I think variety gets confused with Like a healthy mindset approach to diet.

So people think if you are just eating a wide range of foods that that's healthier maybe psychologically When I just know for me and I'm glad that you're emphasizing the happiness part like I know that I'm getting the nutrients I need the protein. I need I think protein is so important and I'm eating real whole foods So if it's a slightly more limited list, but I'm happy with it Then let that be that's okay

Dane Johnson
Something also I think you've developed that we can put into words as a takeaway is nothing is stronger in knowing what's good for your body than a sharpened and seasoned intuition. When you spend time taking this and applying it, I think Melanie, you went on strict diets, you did carnivore, you did paleo, you done fasting, intermittent fasting, you done FODMAP. All of that has led to a sharp, sharp intuitive nature on what helps you feel healthy and thriving.

That's how you can get confidence and happiness because I think a lot of when you're saying I'm happy with my diet, you're saying I'm confident in the way I eat because I've already gone left, right, north, south, east, west. I've done so much. This is where I know I want to be. You are not easily influenced out of that because of the hard work, because of the dedication, because of the willingness to try. You didn't fail with those other diets. They were experiences that sharpened you intuition to get you to where you are now.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. Also, just speaking on the intuition piece, because I just interviewed Dr. Stephen Gundry. His newest book is about the gut-brain connection. And he talks about the intuition piece because, especially with our gut and our gut microbiome, it's informed by what we're eating and it starts craving based on what we're eating. So, if we're eating a more limited diet, but healthy whole foods, we're going to be craving those foods and we're going to taste good. On the flip side, if we are having a more processed, standard American diet, we're going to actually intuitively crave those foods because the gut microbiome can send those neurotransmitters and make us actually crave those foods. So, the intuition piece to me is so fascinating.

It's fascinating how your cravings can change, your taste buds can change, and even your intuitive feeling can change based on what you're eating. But I can tell you, people don't believe me, but I am so happy with the food I eat. It tastes so good to me and I'm crazy. So, at restaurants, because I do intermittent fasting every day and I do one meal a day at night. So, just ordering one meal at a restaurant is usually not enough. So, I usually order two entrees and then I usually order for dessert, a savory dessert. So, I'll get like, I'll ask for like a shrimp cocktail for dessert or something.

Dane Johnson
Like, who is this young lady just hounding this food? I love that. Guys, this is a big takeaway. Make sure happiness is also confidence.

And if you don't have confidence in your nutrition, ask yourself, how much have you really dedicated yourself just to try, not just for it to work, we want it to work, but also to build the confidence on what will work for you and why, so you can build your nutrition plan, not just follow a diet. And what you're saying is so mega. And a big point of what you just said about Dr. Gundry, I crave a steak. I cannot get, I don't wake up. There's not a day that goes by that goes, man, I am so tired eating steak. You can give me a steak, a properly prepared grass bed, grass finished organic with the right type of salt, cooked the right way. That is gonna be, my neurotransmitters are firing all the time, just always firing because that's where I get that adequate protein. That's where I get those calories because I also tend to eat more restrictive foods. I'm careful with polysaccharides, the goons, lectins, Dr. Gundry's plan. I use a lot of his strategies around those grains and always complex carbs, polysaccharides is another name for that. And we learn these things. I think you're so right in what you're saying is when your body gets something that really serves it, it starts craving it. So I might start craving a little bit more sprouted stone grounded almond butter because I've been eating it more lately and my body goes, oh, that's a great source of certain fats or certain protein or calories that I wasn't getting before. Same thing with raspberries or, you know, arugula because if I have a lot of salads, my body might all of a sudden I might wake up one day and go, hmm, I feel like I'm on a salad. Like a low lectin, low oxalate salad that's been broken down with certain acids for better digestion, you know, that's cleaned. So I think there's a lot to what you're saying is when you really just try to eat really great food, your body will start craving it as it starts to switch to understand, oh, okay, this is my source of fuel now.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. I literally, one thing I love about for me practicing intermittent fasting is it's a feast every night for me and I literally look forward to it so much. I'm not like craving and hungry during the day.

I just, I love the fasted period and then I love the eating period and I love what I eat and it's great. So I'm going to keep on keeping on. I'm going to keep ordering those savory desserts at restaurants.

Dane Johnson
Can you share with everyone how you came to the realization that intermittent fasting was going to be a lifestyle for you? And I know it's just your experience, but what have been some of the pros and cons, how to really make sense of it for your life and integrating that when you were dealing with constipation or SIBO or any of those other GI issues?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so it's interesting because I started intermittent fasting also in college before any of the stuff went, you know, bad. And I was gonna just try it for a week was my game plan. I read a blog about it online. And I was like, I'll try this for a week. This sounds interesting. And I never stopped because it, it just was so helpful for me.

I loved that I no longer had what I really didn't like about even with low carbon keto and Atkins before fasting, that really helped my appetite and my cravings and things like that. But I still was always thinking about my next meal. And that was just such a big part of my mental capacity and energy during the day. And so with fasting, it switched me to where I didn't even have to think about that anymore, like the energetic load that was lifted from my shoulders from not having to make food decisions all day and not have to think about food all day, and then get to eat this, you know, feast type situation at night. It just really worked for me. I think a lot of people turn to intermittent fasting a lot for the health benefits, which there's so many and the weight loss and all that. But I think a lot of the unexpected benefits are things like the time you get back and the, the, the mental anxiety that goes away from not having to make these dietary choices. And there's just, there's so much there in that aspect. So that's really what kept me doing that.

Dane Johnson
I would love to also point out earlier you mentioned how when you ate food you felt off with it It didn't sick good you didn't feel good with it and that caused a an anxiety. Yes, and yes So when you're not eating you're getting autophagy, which is your body cleaning out the cells balancing the microbiome Right getting rid of zombie cells like senescent cells You are getting yourself pure bowel rest to optimize all those things You're saving the money you're saving the time But now you're building something for you I can see how that worked for you where it's like I don't have to have those feelings inside of me right now.

You could focus on your podcast. I mean You're reading these books. You're interviewing these huge guests. You're you're traveling the world doing all these things You've got a lot to do and so you get all the health benefits of I was told I have SIBO What if all this disease manifests into something worse? Imminent fasting helps to can control that because scientifically we see that people with imminent fast have a ton of benefits longevity Metabolics liver health gut health all of those things then you get rid of the anxiety and worried out of fear on the food you're eating and There's ways to do it where you actually feel more energetic How many of us eat and then we feel sluggish after eating when we thinking oh, I need to eat because I'm low on energy

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And that's why for me, especially with the, um, I eat in the evening and I sleep so much better on a full stomach. I was never the type I, if I could, I always say if I could change one thing about myself, it would be, I would change my circadian rhythm. I am not the, like the morning person, the eat breakfast. I'm just not that person.

I'm the, the late night, the late night owl that likes to eat late and all of those things and needs to sleep on a full stomach. So it, if I were to eat during the day now, and I've been doing this for so long, I, I would get so tired, um, and lethargic and not, not productive. So I found that the window of eating that just really, really suits my body works really well for me.

Dane Johnson
So I think there's a lot there that you found something that allows you to get back to work, be in balance is also still healthy or getting enough nutrients and protein and all this. And you're also helping to optimize your gut. I mean, the science is there around fasting. Should we be doing that with IBD? I think if you're malnourished and severely underweight, speak with your doctor before doing that.

I think there are some other ways to consider that, especially with me, I was 120 pounds from 100. There's no way intermittent. I couldn't intermittent fast. I had to have some calories so that I didn't wither away and have to go back on some kind of life support. So, obviously there are pros and cons. I think that's one big point that we have to make here is, when I interviewed you or you interview a lot of people, we always have this idea that this worked for me, it might not work for you. And what we're really saying is, when you look at these strategies for healing, you have to see healing like a chest match. The rule is, you make your move on the chest board based on how your opponent moves. And you never know your next move until you see your opponent's move. So it's a real time pivot. So when you say it works for you, it might not work for everyone else. That's because people are not understanding how to play the chess game of health. What are the pros and cons of intermittent fasting? And why would you consider doing it? Why would you not consider doing it? And you don't have to do it exactly like Melanie. But if you're dealing with some of these issues and you have a ton of food fear, you can get the same calories in a four or five hour eating window as you did in a 12 hour eating window. And that could have tons of benefits like it's had for Melanie here. What have been some of the big benefits you've noticed and why you've stuck with it? Like the top benefits of intermittent fasting for you that you say, this is me. This is why it's helped me and how it might be able to help other peoples who can relate with you.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And just to emphasize the individuality aspect, because you were asking the beginning, you know, what are my biggest takeaways in general from podcasting and being in this biohacking sphere and everything. And having interviewed so many people, there's just not one diet for everybody is my takeaway. Like if there was, I really think we would have found it. If there was one perfect eating window, one perfect diet, I think we would have found it. And I think it would work for everybody, but that's just not the case and not the experience.

So even so when it comes to fasting, again, I think finding the eating window that works for you is so, so important. And there's a lot of ways that it can be done. You can look at the, you can do it like a meal based thing. So you're only eating dinner, you're only eating lunch or only eating breakfast, or you're eating only breakfast and lunch, like, or you can do it by the clock, like I'm only eating between these hours, or you could do it based on I just want to fast, you know, a certain minimum amount of hours each day and do it more that way. There's a lot of different approaches. And you can also, you know, mix it up. So the top benefits I've experienced, there's so many. I think so one of them is what I was talking about earlier about not having to, not having to restrict myself when I actually am eating. So I have my eating window, that's my eating window, I get to nourish my body, viscerally experience the pleasure of food, just I get all the the benefits of eating without being haunted by this idea that I have to count calories or that I have to stop eating soon or that just that that's all gone. So I love I love that experience. I love the time that I get back. It's you don't realize how much time you spend when you're eating multiple meals and snacks throughout the day, but it's it adds up. So just having an uninterrupted block of time every day has been so so incredible for for everything in my life.

And the sleep, like I mentioned, it really, really helps with my sleep. And it really, really helps just in general with me maintaining my my health and my body constitution, all the things and the gut rest, like you're saying, because I think it's very, there is a lot of studies on fasting and healing the gut. And it can be very beneficial for we know that our our gut cells, they turn over very fast, which is good, because it means they can heal pretty fast. And at the same time, there's a lot of like the eating process is is inflammatory. Like there's way around that not like to a horrible extent, but it is, you know, using using the gut things happen down there. So having that that rest mode every day, especially if you're fasting, I think can be very, very healing.

And although I do want to draw attention, I agree with you that you know, people need to make sure they can get enough calories and nutrition, especially if that's what they're struggling with with IBD and such. But there's Yeah, there's a lot of benefits.

Dane Johnson
You know, for me, whenever I do imminent fasting, I've done three day water fasts and I've practiced a lot of minute fasting myself is if I can drink enough water and get enough electrolytes or earlier in the day, I have great energy. I have great energy and I'm one of those people that also has felt like if I eat a huge breakfast in the morning, which I used to want to do because I wanted to build muscle, I'm in the gym. So I'd have, you know, six or seven eggs and aching and a protein shake and all this stuff, but I felt so lethargic. My gut felt so heavy. And then the chance of me having to run to the bathroom more was just way greater. So there's a lot of benefit that when your body is ready, you can use intermittent fasting to save time, save money and potentially feel like you have more energy.

You know, what happens to the brain when you're not eating? Well, it turns on, it starts lighting up, looking for carbohydrates. That's what they say after 24 hour fasts, you're gonna start feeling like, whoa, I'm up, I can't sleep, you know? And so if you can get time, energy and money out of it, it's something you could consider. I think that there has to be a healing response for a lot of us or just talk to your doctor and do what's best for you. I think that's the best way of saying it, but a lot of real benefits. I thought I'd be a person who could never do intermittent fasting, but I found it like you, very, very valuable. And like you, I like to eat more at night. I like to go to bed. My heaviest meal is about 5 p.m. for me, up to 6 p.m., that's where I feel best. And when I don't eat a lot during the day, like it's 220 right now, and I've probably had about 500 calories, but I'm switched on, ready to go. And so it changes day to day, it changes based on where you travel. So wherever you are in the world, guys, realize that you can be flexible, you can move this. And as you get empowered, as you refine that intuition, you can change your plan a little bit based on what's happening in your life, if that suits you and if that works for you.

You know, question, I know we're running out of time here, Melanie, but last question for you. After all these interviews, over all this experience of biohacking and doing all these different diets and interviewing some of the best in the world around this, what have been some of the top highlights where you're seeing these world-renowned functional practitioners or doctors agree on? Like what are some of the highlights that we all should be focused on, right? What is the, are there any symbiotic nature solutions that we all say, yes, this is most important that we can do despite the nuances and differences we might feel about how to heal.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love this question so much. And it's interesting. So in the diet world for that, it's very limited. Like, if you if it's like, everybody agrees, eat war, you know, do it. Yeah, no, like, yeah, drink water, eat, I think probably for the food for the diet world, it would be drink, drink water and eat whole foods. I really think that's the only thing everybody would agree on.

Even like the protein front, you know, people will say, high protein diet is the best. And then some people will say high, low protein diet is best for longevity. So it's it's confusing. But I think I think probably one of the biggest things that people agree on. And I also think it's the most one of the most important things for people's health, including their gut health. And I mentioned earlier, but supporting our sleep, I think is so so important. And we are so out of whack and out of line today with our natural circadian rhythms. We live these, you know, sedentary, over processed lives stuck in, you know, collections of artificial light and blue light, which messes up our melatonin, melatonin production, which messes with our sleep. And it's just not it's not ideal. And we're very stressed. So I think addressing sleep can be so helpful. And there's so much agency that you can take there. And I have my whole, my whole protocol that I've created and curated over years of doing all this research. So, you know, I, well, it starts in the morning, I make sure I get exposure to bright light in the morning, and throughout the day, staying active. And then in the evening, I have my whole protocol. So I, I use blue light blocking glasses, those help those block blue light, which, which actually shuts off your melatonin production, which can impede sleep. I light my apartment with red light at night, it looks like the red light district, which is kind of funny. For my sleeping environment, I keep the temperature very cold. I actually do like the low 60s, which is pretty pretty cold. And then I use a like a cooling mattress to help with my body temperature, because we know that helps support sleep. I use blackout curtains, eye mask, and I, I wind down, I don't use social media at night. So I think really, really addressing your sleeping habits can be can be a game changer for people and their health. And I think, I think, actually, probably all the experts would agree on that.

Dane Johnson
I think everyone can agree optimizing your sleep is key to autoimmune disease, gut health, liver health, anxiety, cellular repair, growth. There is, we all can win with that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I definitely. And I think they also would agree on exposing ourselves to beneficial hermetic stressors.

So again, we're so sedentary today, we sit at our computers, we're inside, we're not moving, we exist in a very stable air conditioned temperature. So anything you can do that would mimic how we evolved when we were exposed to the environmental stressors actually has very beneficial effects on our health. So things like cryotherapy, where you're, you know, temporarily exposing yourself to very cold temperatures, be that through an ice bath or a cryotherapy air machine or a nitrogen machine, or even just doing a cold shower. So that's going to help with inflammation and boost mood and help regulate cortisol, or doing on the flip side, so like heat exposure. So having a sauna session, it's great for activating heat shock proteins, which have a longevity effect, and support muscle, it's great for detoxification. So I do that every day, I do sauna every day, I do cryotherapy every day. I think the things like that can be can make radical changes in people's health and wellness.

Dane Johnson
I love that, and I echo that. And guys, what she said, an environmental hermatic therapy. So, hermosis is a stress on your body that's just at the right balance that creates a healing response. Kind of like breaking down a muscle to build it to be stronger. Environmental heat, cold therapy, even something like pressure, atmospheric pressure, like oxygen chamber. That's my favorite.

I do sauna and I do H-bot. I've got it in my house. Those are like two of my favorite. And obviously exercise, walking up a hill is a type of stress on the body that when done properly, can have a healing response. I think this is really an important biohack everyone can take from today, is stop arguing about what we differ on and start focusing on being consistent on what we all agree on.

Let's optimize our sleep. Let's use certain states of environmental hermatic therapies where we feel ready to do that. I think another one, if I had to put one in there is I think almost everyone can agree that not snacking as often would be valuable, whether you're high carb, low protein, or vice versa, or whatever, your FODMAP or this, that. Giving bowel rest has its value. And then you have levels of that intermittent fasting or fasting, which you've shown and run a podcast on. And so these are things that can, I think we all could agree that sunlight, real sunlight to a certain level of exposure is going to be valuable, especially that morning sun with those natural red lights, that'd be good. You wanna use red light therapy, just wake up and go look at the sun. You got plenty of it right there. And oxygen, good water, clean water, not stored in a microplastic bottle, they see things all. Big takeaway today is what can you start doing that everyone has a consensus is gonna be great for us.

And that's really how I started. Not only when I looked at this, I was so confused. Like you, when I was on the consumer side, I was just reading everything. Everything was so conflicting. And what I said is, okay, what are the common pieces of advice I keep seeing over and over again from these practitioners I feel are full of integrity, full of trust, and have really helped people get results? What do they agree on? Let me start there. And- I love it. That's where you might, that's where you're probably gonna see the biggest ROI. And I know some of this stuff might not feel life-changing. Like, oh, it's not the supplement that's gonna change my life, but the consistency of good sleep, nervous system regulation, proper type of stress on your life or your body that's done therapeutically, you do these over and over again, you are going to see results. Consistency is worth more than perfection. Any last words, Melanie? Thank you so much for this awesome, awesome time and sharing your story.

Melanie Avalon
No, thank you, Dane. I, like I said, I just love, I love what you're doing so much. You're helping so many people. I feel so good right now.

I guess the way I always sign off my little, my little, what is it? Tagline? I don't know. I always say it at the end and it's breathe, be kind, you got this. So just taking a moment to breathe. You know, we didn't talk about breath work, but you know, everything, everything is okay and taking a moment to understand that. And then I just think kindness is so important and so underrated. Because you got this.

You do. You got this.

Dane Johnson
Amen. You got this, guys.

I'm going to put a link to Melanie's podcast, an amazing podcast. It's so good. You need to check it out. That's below. And I'll put a link to her Instagram and all the things below. Please connect with her, reach out so you can help change your life.

Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you, Dane. This was fabulous. Thank you.

Dane Johnson
God bless, guys.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!
 

Apr 07

Episode 416 – Intermittent Fasting Benefits, Vitamin D Supplements, Tanning Beds, Skin Absorption Of Chemicals, Resistant Starch For Weight Loss, Ordering At Restaurants, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 416 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC


SHOW NOTES


SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS


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MD LOGIC

Get 10% off MD Logic's D3 + K2 supplement with code ifpodcast at mdlogic.com.


LINKS

Featured Restaurant: Pine Creek Cookhouse

dminder


STUDIES

Intermittent Fasting: What is it, and how does it work?

Effect of adding vegetable oils to starches from different botanical origins on physicochemical and digestive properties and amylose–lipid complex formation

Resistant starch intake facilitates weight loss in humans by reshaping the gut microbiota
The Effect of Heat-acid Treatment on the Formation of Resistant Starch and the Estimated Glycemic Index in Potatoes


If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!


Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.


Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.


TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)


Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 416 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.  I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 416 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad

Hey, everyone. How's it going, Melanie? I'm feeling good today. How are you feeling today? What's happening?

Melanie Avalon

I'm feeling so great. I'm curious since it is April 7th. Do you ever do crazy April Fool's jokes? Do they have that in Australia?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, okay, listen, okay, just to kind of zoom out from this for a second, because Melanie's always asking, do they have this in Australia? Do they have that in Australia?  And one of the things she asked me was, do you guys have peeps?

Melanie Avalon

Peeps, yes. Perfect timing because peeps are very much celebrated or used around Easter, and isn't Easter around this time?

Barry Conrad

Mm hmm. I think April 20th coming up. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Oh wow, you knew it right off the top of your, doesn't it change?

Barry Conrad

I don't know if it's different in America. Is it different or is it the same? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon

is on Sunday, April 20th this year. Yeah, it changes. It's always on a Sunday. It has to change because it's always on a Sunday, you know?

Barry Conrad

You're right there we go i was wondering cuz that my next question was like who decides why changes and you know why does this holiday change in other holidays anyway we know the answer sundays.  But you have peeps we don't have peeps in australia meaning like the candy like the what is it marshmallows we don't have that.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, did you look up the link I sent you?

Barry Conrad

I did look it up and we don't I don't I've definitely have not seen them here.

Melanie Avalon

These are such a thing in America and they're kind of polarizing. Like people either, you're not going to meet somebody who feels lukewarm or is like, could go either way.  People either love or hate peeps. Same with like candy corn, I feel. They have candy corn in Australia.

Barry Conrad

We do not.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness.

Barry Conrad

Do you, but do you like it or did you like it before, like, you know, when you were eating the candy?

Melanie Avalon

or candy corn. Both. Actually, I'm going to undo what I just said. I do like peeps. I do like, and candy corn, yes, I do.  And peeps are, they come in all different, so the traditional one is like, it's like a yellow chick, like a little chicken and it's yellow. But they come in like a hundred varieties and they're always coming up with special ones so that Valentine's Day, they'll have like Valentine's ones, I think the newest one right now is like a churro one. So not pee-ups? Okay, this is the other thing. So I say peeps like people, like your peeps, and I spell it P-E-O-P-S, and Barry was giving me grief about it being pee-opes. Like, it's not pee-opes, it's people. That's how you spell people. So if you do peeps, wouldn't you do P-E-O-P-S? Am I the only person?

Barry Conrad

Can you ask your friend, ask your friend chat GBT about this because chat GBT.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I can. I can do that. Let's see. How would we ask this?  We would say, if you were to shorten the word people into the short form, how would you spell that? I don't want to give it any leading. Oh, no.

Barry Conrad

What? Do they do P E E P S?

Melanie Avalon

Well, okay. It says a common shorthand for people is P-P-L, like people. Other informal variations include peeps spelled P-E-E-P-S.  Okay. Yes. Going forward, I might need to adjust how I spell that word. Do you think other people have been thinking that too? They're like, pew-oops, pew-oops. When I, cause I send that all the time. I say peeps, P-E-O-P-S.

Barry Conrad

Do you know what I think they might be thinking? What? She meant to spell it properly like P-E-E-P-S and she just, it was a typo.  Because that's what, that's exactly what I thought when I saw it was like P-O.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, what? Yeah. I will adjust. I will adjust my behavior going forward. Thank you. Thank you, Barry.

Barry Conrad

Listen, this is not fasting-related at all, but do you go P-E-E-P-S or P-E-O-P-S? Maybe we'll put a poll up on the Instagram.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, please do. That's so funny. Wait. So, but April Fool's jokes, so do you have or how do you feel about April Fool's jokes?

Barry Conrad

I love, you know what, I actually love April Fool's jokes, but I never make them, but I don't know why, like I love like seeing them and laughing and cracking up, but I just kind of, I don't know, do you make them or do you prank your family and stuff?

Melanie Avalon

So here's the thing, this is like things are about to get real. So I think they're super fun. I also, I'm not saying like if you're doing April Fool's jokes, you're like lying, but I feel very uncomfortable not telling the truth. So I don't think I can like do it.  And I would feel like a bad person. I would struggle with that aspect of it, even though it's a joke. I just, my mom, like her one virtue was never lie. And that got like instilled into me. So I don't do well with like jokes that require altering reality presentations.

Barry Conrad

I know this about you actually so that that tracks that make sense but it's but it's like it's like okay well okay how about when you're doing a scene or something like that as an actor did you feel bad about like that or is that different it's a different thing.

Melanie Avalon

No, because people know, people know you're, you know, you're not actually. And this is not a moral judgment.  Like I literally think it's not a problem. If this is all like my childhood coming out. This is my point is like it's hard for me to like actually implement a serious April Fool's joke.

Barry Conrad

What about when I think it was another show when I was like, just before we started recording, and Melanie was like, does my mic sound good? And I said, it sounds like you're really far away.  And she goes, oh, really? I was like, no, I was just kidding. Could you say something like that? Or is that still like, it's not telling the truth.

Melanie Avalon

No, no, like in the moment, I'm glad you're clarifying. So, because that you can just, you quickly correct it, like the next second.  But it's not like you have somebody existing in a state for an extended period of time where they think like reality is different than what you said. It's, I think it's the time issue.

Barry Conrad

This is like the one meal a day thing. How much time do we have between the between the

Melanie Avalon

How much time has passed with the lie for it to become a problematic lie? Yeah, that's a good question. I'm going to ponder that.

Barry Conrad

And also, how do you feel about your friends and family playing those April Fools jokes on you? Do you laugh or do you find it hard?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I would, I would find it funny. I mean, it depends, it depends what it is. I don't think I've ever been the brunt of like a really intense April Fool's joke.  I feel like it's more a thing you do in childhood, you know, or like companies will do it on X formerly known as Twitter and stuff.

Barry Conrad

Do you know how celebrities or public figures will often post like, I'm retiring or say something like that on April Fools or I'm dropping an album. It's like April Fools, like stuff like that on the Instagram.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I feel like people can use it to be mean too.

Barry Conrad

I think so too. That's not what we're about here.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, we're not, we're not a fan. Or I used to fantasize about using it. Like if I like liked a boy in middle school or something or high school, because then you can like test it. Like I like you. And then if they're like, I like you back there and you wanted to tell them anyways, then woo, everybody wins.  No April fools. But then if they're like, no, you're like April fools.

Barry Conrad

That's sneaky. That's pretty, that's on the sly right there.

Melanie Avalon

Uh-huh. That's how I would want to use an April Fool's joke. Like, I would want it to address something that I wanted to address with somebody. I wouldn't actually do this, but this is how I would like to use it.

Barry Conrad

So basically, listeners and all people listening should not expect Melanie Avalon to put up an April Fools situation on her Instagram story and try to prank people this Easter or April Fools, I should say.

Melanie Avalon

unless I'm just planting the seeds right now to have the best one ever next year. Maybe that's all, maybe this is all a mind game. Not really. It's not. But maybe it is now that I think about it.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, you could make it one. We'll see.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, okay, anything new in your life?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I'm actually, this is a week of photo shoots for me.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yay, new photos. I feel like you have a lot of photo shoots.

Barry Conrad

Well, not that many. I feel like you have a lot of photo shoots.

Melanie Avalon

like I went through a period of time where I was having a lot, but I feel like you consistently, like since I know you have had a lot of photo shoots, which is a good thing. I support.  I think it's great.

Barry Conrad

Well, this one is it's a new pro. It's new promo shoots for things coming up, which I promise I will definitely share.  I keep talk hinting to this thing, but it's promo shoots and I'm super excited. I had one yesterday and I have another one in two days. So it should be really fun like Bondi beach sunrise one. So that'd be really sick. Can't wait.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I want to see the pictures. I love looking at photo shoot pictures. Awesome.

Barry Conrad

Do you know what I like to do as well?

Melanie Avalon

Look at photo shoot pictures.

Barry Conrad

have like a mirror there so I can see my pose.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Do we talk about this?

Barry Conrad

I don't do that, but I said this because you're making fun of me.

Melanie Avalon

No, I'm just- I got really excited for a second. Have you tried this? Have you tried this?

Barry Conrad

You know what? I saw a photo of yours.

Melanie Avalon

Would you feel awkward?

Barry Conrad

Well, I saw a photo of yours on Instagram, because you're on Instagram, and I thought, did she use the technique for that photo? So I tried to do or pretend like, how do you do it? I'm trying to see it in my mind, how you set it up.

Melanie Avalon

What Barry is referring to is that when I do a photo shoot, like a professional photo shoot where it's not a selfie, it's like a photographer taking my picture, I need to see myself, I need to pose myself. And I used to feel very insecure about this concept that I need a mirror to pose.  And then I saw a video where Paris Hilton was talking with one of the Kardashians and they were talking about how Paris Hilton has to have a mirror at her photo shoots so she can pose herself. And then she is the queen of photo shoots. So then I felt better about myself. Not that I needed her validation, but it helped a lot.  What's the question? How do I do it?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, like give us like a quick walk through like

Melanie Avalon

So we ordered, well, there's two steps. I ordered like a rollaway mirror, so I have it set up so I can be like posing in the mirror while they're shooting. And then I also hold a little handheld mirror in my hand so that I can sometimes like pose my face right before. And it works.  I have a photographer that I work with Adrienne, shout out to Adrienne, and she totally gets it and she knows I got to pose my face and it works so well.

Barry Conrad

Just like what we talk about on the show, do what works for you. And I think it's, you know, I'm not, I'm not giving you a hard time. I was just teasing like sort of, but I think it's awesome that you do that because it works, right?

Melanie Avalon

I'm teasing you about teasing me, so it does work. I think you should try it. I think you should try it and report back and let me know if it completely like changed your life for photo shoots.

Barry Conrad

Okay, if I am in a studio or someplace that has a mirror, I'll do it. But I don't think I'm going to like buy a mirror and then bring, or bring one.

Melanie Avalon

Well, if you move to the US, I can come be your assistant and I'll bring a mirror. I'll bring the rollaway mirror and I'll like roll it around for you. Roll it around.

Barry Conrad

She's rolling rolling. It's like your workout. It's like there she goes bouncing around

Melanie Avalon

I'd be like, where do you need it? And I'll put it there.

Barry Conrad

What about when, okay, Melanie, here's an exciting thought as well, but what about when, not if, what about when we do a promo shoot for the show, you and I? Isn't that exciting?

Melanie Avalon

Oh my gosh, we should do that. And we should have a rollaway mirror.

Barry Conrad

Then I get to see her process.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, we can do it together. We can both be posing in the mirror. It is going to be such a moment.

Barry Conrad

Wow. It's all full circle. That's exciting though. I just had that thought in this moment. So that's something to look forward to.  We must do that. Are we going to mimic the artwork? Are we going to do the same, try to do the...

Melanie Avalon

Oh my. Yeah.

Barry Conrad

Or something completely different.

Melanie Avalon

We can do a lot of things, but that should be one of them. We should reenact the art, yes. And then we should do some of us like podcasting with my rainbow mic.

Barry Conrad

Me with my blue one. Love you. I love you.

Melanie Avalon

And then we can do some that are very like acting drama class where it'll be like, do how you feel while podcasting.

Barry Conrad

In front of food or like at a restaurant like eating.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and then we can have some of us eating and some of us not eating like holding clocks.

Barry Conrad

holding clocks, that's so funny.

Melanie Avalon

I'm looking right now, I'm staring at the OG inspiration of the artwork, because I don't know if you remember. You probably do, like way back in the day, the original artwork was a photo of a clock.

Barry Conrad

Yes, I do remember that. I actually do remember.

Melanie Avalon

That clock is on my wall, I'm staring at it. I have that clock, so we could shoot with that clock. That's cool. It needs to be touched up a little bit, some of the paint's coming off, but what do you expect?  It's been how many years? A lot of years. There we go. I forgot that clock was there. You know how you stop seeing stuff because it's in your environment every day? I forgot that, I don't think I've looked at this clock, like looked at it in a long time.

Barry Conrad

So what, you were just minding your own business and then you thought, okay, what is something that could be a great, you know, like photo for the podcast and you just looked up at the clock and you had a Eureka moment or like what, how did that work?

Melanie Avalon

This is kind of like how you were talking a few episodes ago about how you don't remember but then you remembered your origin story of starting intermittent fasting. I got it at Target.  I think I went to Target with the intention. Yeah, I went to Target with the intention of finding a clock to shoot a cover for the show and I found this red clock and I was like, that's it. That's it. This is the clock.

Barry Conrad

Wow.

Melanie Avalon

It's exciting. So I think that's what happened. I know it was Target.

Barry Conrad

that specific that you remember that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Shall we jump into some fasting related stuff?

Barry Conrad

Let's do it after taking you all on a trip from April Fool's through to photo shoots.

Melanie Avalon

April Fool's, to peeps, to photo shoots, to The Clock, Memory Lane, Barry's secret project.

Barry Conrad

Let's dive into some fasting. Are you guys ready for this? So I've brought a study this week, it's called intermittent fasting. What is it and how does it work? So it could be very basic for people that do already follow the podcast, but for listeners who are new, this is going to be particularly for you.  And so the study I'm bringing is called that intermittent fasting, what is it? And how does it work from Johns Hopkins medicine? Yeah, we're about to dive into what Mark Mattson's research on intermittent fasting has uncovered based on his decades of groundbreaking studies. And so a bit about Mark, he is a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins University. He spent more than 25 years examining the effects of fasting on not just the body, but the brain as well. And his work goes way beyond just weight loss. It touches on the profound health improvements ranging from brain function to reducing the risks of diseases like Alzheimer's, diabetes, and even cardiovascular issues.  So here we go. Mattson's research and what I've found here suggests that IF intermittent fasting for newbies isn't just a way to lose weight, it's about triggering natural beneficial processes in the body.  Many of which we don't even realize are happening. So when we fast, our bodies switch from burning glucose, which is sugar, the burning fat for energy and metabolic change that has shown to improve fat loss and increase energy levels. But what's really exciting is that this metabolic switch also kicks off repair mechanisms at the cellular level. So it's like our body gets a chance to really rest, repair, and function more efficiently, but the magic, it doesn't sort of stop there at fat loss. His work has also shown that intermittent fasting can actually help your brain become sharper and more resilient over time, which is so exciting. And fasting triggers a process in brackets, which like, this is one of my favorite things about fasting here, autophagy. And as some listeners may know, it's the body's way of cleaning out damaged cells and regenerating new ones. So this process can reduce brain inflammation, protect neurons, improve memory, and for those of us, I definitely am one of these people wanting to keep our minds clear at its peak. This is a game changer because it doesn't just help prevent cognitive decline. It actually boosts brain health and promotes longevity.  So for Mattson, he's saying intermittent fasting isn't like, it's not just a 20 diet, it's a lifestyle that taps into our biological. Roots. And he goes into say, like our ancestors who didn't have access to constant, like 24 seven food supplies were forced to fast regularly. And it's that biological adoption that he says, our bodies are still attuned to even in today's day and age, even if we don't face that food scarcity. So the modern food environment, as we all know, like we, we often eat way more than we need and it can disrupt metabolism or it can lead to obesity, chronic diseases. So by practicing intermittent fasting, we can align our eating habits with, with that evolutionary biology, resetting our bodies, metabolism, give me the chance to fully function at its best.

Barry Conrad

And what I really love about this study, Melanie, is that Mattson saying that intermittent fasting doesn't require complicated meal plans or calorie counting, as we know, hear from experience. It's just simple.  You pick a window and for new listeners, that means a protocol like 16, a 19 five, one meal a day, which is Oh, mad, just whatever works for you and stick to it. So during your eating periods, you focus on eating nutrient dense meals with whole foods. So we're talking about lean proteins, healthy fats, plenty of veggies. And it's not about restriction. And if you, you are new to the show or even if you've been listening for a while, we're about definitely enjoying our food, but it's rather giving our bodies the time it needs to reset. His study also provides hope for people that have chronic diseases because intermittent fasting has been shown to lower risk of conditions like type two diabetes, heart disease, even cancer.  And plus for those of us looking to manage our way, fasting naturally helps improve insulin sensitivity and reducing overall calorie intake without the need for like intense calorie counting or deprivation. So you know what I think. The biggest thing about this research that stands out for me is how it connects the dots between a simple habit, delaying a meal or two or three, and the long-term benefits it can offer for both our brain and body health. And the best part, it's free.  It's a free tool, accessible to anyone. You don't need like a whole bunch of supplements or complicated routines. You can fit it into your life, which I love. And so for anyone new, particularly to the podcast, if you're on the fence, wondering about intermittent fasting, if it could work for you, whether it's for better health, sharper mental clarity, or even fat loss, Mark Mattson's research lays out a pretty compelling case and we'll definitely have the link there for you to see. As always, before jumping into any new routine, it's always best to chat with your healthcare professional because I'm not a doctor. Melanie, what do you think about that?

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. And so to clarify for listeners, so this is an article from John Hopkins Medicine, and they're talking about Dr. Mark Mattson's work, and he's done a ton of studies on intermittent fasting. So I don't think this is like any one study that he did, but yeah, he's pretty much one of the... Probably one of the primary researchers that has made fasting what it is today with the former co-host of the show.  She's interviewed him before on her show. Cool. Yeah. I would love to interview him sometime. I wonder like by Google him, like how many articles he's done. Let's see.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, imagine having him on the show. That'd be so awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So if you, oh, and he's done articles like with Walter Longo, we've talked about before. Yeah. If you go to Google scholar and look him up, so many different articles come up.

Barry Conrad

In 25 years in the game, that's a long time examining the effects of fasting, which I think is awesome, incredible as well.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, he's amazing. So like on ResearchGate, which is a website I really like to find articles and they often will have the full article even if you can't find it on other sources. So he has 1,121 publications. It doesn't mean that they're all like just him, but that means his name is attached to 1,121 publications. Citations were like citing his work 159,271. Yeah, so he's super cool.  And he really did find like you just so eloquently went through. He has found so many of the mechanisms of IF, how it benefits our brain, our health, all the things. And I love what you ended with about how it's free, which is just so amazing. You don't have to buy anything. Cause I love it.

Barry Conrad

A lot of people when it comes to a plan or a diet or a new health, quote unquote, fed, it's like, okay, this sounds great. And then there's like the cell. It's like, well, there's no cell. It's free. Anyone can do it. You can start anywhere you are. And I love that about it.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Yeah, we should have them have them on the show. That'd be fun. That'd be amazing. Add it to the to-do list. Shall we jump into some questions for today?

Barry Conrad

I think we should.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, would you like to read the first question?

Barry Conrad

Okay, so Amanda from Facebook asks, Can you please explain making rice more resistant starch? Dave Ashbury talks about it, but I don't see the how to some say vinegar, some say coconut oil. Does it have to be heated back up? Can you eat it cold? Does it really have less impact for calories?  Also, I do not understand what can and can't be absorbed through the skin. I feel like this with so many things applied with a patch are other things seeping into our skin. For example, you can take magnesium transdermally even in a bath. Would this mean the minerals in the ocean soak into you while swimming? The chemicals in a pool?

Melanie Avalon

All right, great questions from Amanda. So to tackle the resistant starch piece first, and this was good timing because I had done a lot of research on it and then I'm actually prepping to interview this week, the week that we're recording, not that we're airing. I'm going to interview for I think the third time Dr. Steven Gundry. Are you familiar with Dr. Steven Gundry, Barry? I am. Yeah. Yeah, the plant paradox. He's written so many books. I've had him on the show for, he had a book called The Plant Paradox people might be familiar with. It's the diet where you reduce lectins in your diet. It's like a New York Times bestseller. A lot of people follow it. So I had him on, not for that book because that was before I knew him, but I had him on for a book called The Energy Paradox. And then I think I had him on for unlocking the keto code maybe. He had another book called Gut Check that came out in January of 2024. He also has a book coming out called The Gut Brain Paradox of April of 2025. So around this time, so I will be doing that interview at some point, but in his book Gut Check, he did talk about resistant starch.  And so it was good because it helped me understand more the benefits that come from resistant starch and why. So basically resistance starch, what it is, is when there's been a modification to starch, which is something that we eat normally in our diet, there's four forms of it, RS1, resistance starch one, two, three, and four. And basically the starch, because of how it is changed, like the chemical structure of it by different means, which I'll go through, it makes it so it's not digested by us in the small intestine, it makes its way to the large intestine. And there it is fermented in the colon by microorganisms and they produce short-chain fatty acids, which have a lot of beneficial health effects, which Dr. Gundry talks about in that book. But those short-chain fatty acids, they regulate our metabolism, they boost our energy, they can help with fat loss, inflammation. He makes the case that they're signaling molecules to the mitochondria, so many things. And the different forms, so there's RS1, that's the one, it's naturally found in coarsely ground or whole grains like bread, seeds, legumes, so it's there naturally. RS2 is a form that due to its structure, it's not digested, and it's found in raw potatoes, green bananas, high amylose corn. Then there's resistant starch 3, RS3, and that's one that Amanda is referring to, and that's where you actually, it's formed by cooking. So you cook and cool starchy foods that don't normally have a lot of resistant starch, if any, in them. So potatoes, rice, pasta, oatmeal, bread, and then you cool it. And then in its cooled form, it's become resistant. Resistant 4 is a chemical form of resistant starch, so it's in commercial compounds. Oh, there's also RS5, so there's five, not four. So RS5, that's found bread containing fat as an ingredient, foods with artificially produced.

Melanie Avalon

I think it's also in a non-viscous type of dietary fiber, resistant maltodextrin. In any case, we'll talk about the RS3 one, which is the cooked and cooled one. It does have metabolic health benefits, and it can potentially help with weight loss. So there's been studies on this.  There was one study called, Resistant starch intake facilitates weight loss in humans by reshaping the gut microbiota. That was February 2024 in Nature Metabolism. They looked at 37 participants with overweight or obesity, and they tested resistant starch supplementation with them. And they found that, let's see, they showed that eight weeks of resistant starch supplementation helped lead to weight loss or an average of 2.8 kilograms, which is pretty cool. As far as the oil and stuff, so adding oil may, especially coconut oil, may increase the resistant starch content. So I found one study, it's called, Effective Adding Vegetable Oils to Starches from Different Botanical Origins on Physiochemical and Digestive Properties and Amylose Lipid Complex Formation. They looked at coconut, rice bran, and sunflower oil, adding it to rice starch. And they found that adding oil increased the resistant starch in all of them. So for coconut oil, it went up 13.37%. Rice bran oil was actually 15.21%, and sunflower oil was 10.75%. And there's been quite a few other studies on adding oil, and it does seem to increase it. So it's probably going to increase it around 15% or so.  As for vinegar, I couldn't find a lot of specific studies on this. It is possible that adding a little bit of vinegar, that the acidity may reduce the glycemic response. So there's definitely a benefit there with vinegar and blood sugar control, but I wouldn't go to it specifically for increasing resistant starch content. For that, I do think that adding one to two teaspoons of coconut oil would enhance that. And as far as cold versus reheating versus if you were to cool it again or reheat it again in the cold state, so it has to be at least heated once and then cold, and then cooled. In the cold state, it's going to have the most resistant starch. If you reheat it again, it might reduce the starch a little bit, but there is still going to be resistant starch there. And basically, like I said, so these resistant starch calories, we don't really digest them. So we're not getting calories from them, but then they then feed our gut microbiome that produce these short-chain fatty acids that have a lot of beneficial health effects. So really great for our microbiome and great for our metabolic health.  Do you have thoughts on resistant starch, Barry?

Barry Conrad

You know, I, as someone who eats a lot of white boiled rice, this is, this question was actually super interesting for me as well to dive into. I mean, you said it so well, you know, Amanda cooked and cooled rice is a solid blood sugar hack, so your skin absorbs more than you probably realize.  It's, it's not a perfect sponge, but it's definitely not a shield. And in terms of gut health as well, it helps with blood sugar control, you know? So I mean, I don't have too much more to add to that, but yeah, it definitely changes the structure when you cook it, cool it, and then that starch does change structure, making it hard for your body to break down. So yeah.

Melanie Avalon

something there. It definitely works and definitely supports the metabolic health and my support weight loss. And then as far as things being absorbed into the skin, so basically our skin has a lot of different layers. And our skin is really amazing when you think about it, how it keeps out things, but lets in things it needs like, and so resilient. It's, it's so, so cool.  And so for substances to be absorbed into the skin, they have to get through the watermost layer, which is called the stratum corneum. And the, the compound itself and whether or not it's fat soluble or water soluble will affect that. So fat soluble substances do penetrate easier because they can go through the lipid layer. So essential oils, skincare, medications that fat composition can help with absorption compared to water soluble, those don't absorb as easy. That said, if you are exposed to them for a long time, it is possible that absorption can happen. So especially things like chemicals in the pool, like if you're, you're in the pool for a long time, for hours, some of those chemicals can, you know, eventually penetrate the skin. So things like bromine, chlorine, things that you don't want in your body. Yeah, like chlorine and chlorine in particular. There's other things that affect it, like the molecular size, the concentration, like Amanda was mentioning, some things are specifically made to get into your skin. So that's things like transdermal patches. Basically, for me, the way I look at it is your skin can let things into your body. So I would be very, very careful about what I put on my skin and not expose myself to things I don't want in my body anyways. And it's going to be on the outside of your skin. So why would you want things that are, you know, potentially toxic on the outside as well. One reason I think like safe skin care makeup free of endocrine disruptors is just so, so important. I'm obsessed with beauty counter and crunchy and these brands because you want to make sure that you're not letting endocrine disruptors into your body. So Mary, do you have thoughts?

Barry Conrad

I think it's, you look at magnesium sprays, look at like hormone creams, nicotine patches, it proves like our skin definitely absorbs some things. So yeah, Melanie exactly was right.  Why would you let things in that aren't safe for us? So you don't want to be like baking or you know, stewing in a pool full of chemicals, getting that into your system. And some ingredients just can just sit on the surface, but others actually enter our bloodstream. So it's pretty important. Very, very important.

Melanie Avalon

It's kind of like all those really scary studies that came out on sunscreen where they would find, you know, once people put on the sunscreen that these really toxic compounds in sunscreen were ending up in people's bloodstreams. Yeah, it's not, it's not good.

Barry Conrad

Not a good situation.

Melanie Avalon

Be careful of what you put on your skin. Shall we go to our next question?

Barry Conrad

Let's do it. So Jody from Facebook asks, please talk about tanning beds. Do you still use them? I guess this is for you, Melody.

Melanie Avalon

I've talked about tanning beds on the show before and this would apply to you as well. I'm curious for the vitamin D production because that's the reason I would use them was we know that vitamin D is so, so important for our health, our immunity, so many things.  And so I went through a period of time, especially it was really just during the winter. And it was when I felt like my vitamin D levels were low and I would do blood tests as well for that. But I would go in like a UVB bed, which is the in the tanning beds, it works well because it's the rays, it's like the cheaper ones in the beds because they're the ones that aren't for like the tanning color, but it does more preferentially stimulate vitamin D production. So I would literally go in for like a minute, like a minute in the winter. I haven't done that, I don't think the past two winters maybe. And it's just because I've been so on top of my vitamin D supplementation, my levels have always been pretty good, but you feel it like you going in that bed for like a minute feels so good on the flip side. Again, I'm not doing it for tanning, I'm doing it for vitamin D levels. Do you get your vitamin D levels checked, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I do actually, and this is, I was actually saying this to a friend three days ago and everything is always great except my vitamin D because I don't spend as much time in the sun for reasons of sun damage, but yeah, I could definitely up my vitamin D. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

So I take the vitamin D supplements nightly, and ever since I've been doing that I've been really good on my vitamin D levels. The problem, especially for people with darker skin, you have to have more sun exposure to create that vitamin D in your body, which means more damage to your skin. That's why a lot of people with darker skin are more likely to have vitamin D deficiencies.  You already have, because of the melanin in your skin, like a natural barrier to the sun, which is good, but then it also means on the flip side that you have to get more sun exposure, more damage to generate that vitamin D. So I would, yeah, I would really highly recommend for people in general, like testing their vitamin D levels, staying on top of vitamin D supplementation, maybe going this tanning bed route, especially in the winter, you know, if needed. And MD Logic Health, they have a really good vitamin D supplement that I recommend. So you can go to MDLogicHealth.com and use the coupon code I have podcast and that will get you 10% off their vitamin D, which is a really amazing vitamin D with the ingredients and the quality and the purity and the potency. So I definitely, definitely recommend that.

Barry Conrad

What do you think about the, you know, how the world health organization classifies tanning bears as a group one carcinogen and just like the concentrated UV radiation that, that can increase that skin cancer risk as well. So how do you sort of ride that?  What are your thoughts on that? Like riding the situation of spending a minute in there and just that, but is that damaging? Do you know what I mean? Or not?

Melanie Avalon

So, 100% UV damage is a carcinogen and a potential for harm. I think you really have to weigh the cost benefit. I would not wear conventional sunscreen that has these toxic compounds in them like we were talking about earlier, so these questions go well together. Because putting those toxins into your body, I think is just not good.  So, you could use a natural sunscreen. They usually have zinc oxides in them, so it creates a physical barrier between you and the sun. In general, for anti-aging effects of the sun, I would minimize sun exposure, like I really would. On your body, definitely on your face where you're aging. And when I do the tanning bed for a minute, I cover my face completely, like I put a towel over my face. So, I just get it on my body.  Really? Yeah. Because the skin on your face is where we show aging the fastest. And UV is probably the most aging thing. I mean, I get maybe a lot of the ingredients in common skincare makeup are also very aging, so it's hard to know. UV damage is very aging.  So, yes, it can create cancer. Also, vitamin D is just so, so important in your body. And I do think, I've talked to some people about this, I do think there's probably a little bit more of a benefit just of the vitamin D hormone created naturally versus from a supplement. It's hard to know. That said, there are so many studies looking at vitamin D supplementation and seeing the beneficial effects that I'm really a fan. And especially you want it with K2, which is what I should have mentioned about that endologic health. It's with the K2 blend that you really want to get the best synergy in order to get that vitamin D into your bones and get the metabolic health from it, the metabolic benefits. So, it's like a loaded question with a loaded answer and that, yes, it's a carcinogen.  Yes, we should, I think in general, we should not overexpose our skin to UV damage. I do think though that you can be smart about it and do what I said about like just in the winter for a minute. Yeah, so it's all true. It's like, yes, and.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I do when to get my son, I usually go earlier in the morning before the peak period or later in the afternoon slash evening with the sun still out, but it's not as harsh to try to get that vitamin D in there, but you won't find me rarely in the sun in the middle of the day. There's just no way.  And this is like a work thing or something.

Melanie Avalon

Actually, there's and there's an app. Have you heard of it? It's called dminder. Have you heard of it?

Barry Conrad

No, what is that?

Melanie Avalon

I haven't actually haven't used it because I don't really go out in the sun that much, but it'll tell you put in like your location and it'll tell you exactly when to go outside to get the maximum benefit of getting vitamin D from the sun. Like when you should go outside, basically.

Barry Conrad

What's it called? D-Minder.

Melanie Avalon

Dminder? Yeah, Dminder. So they're little pitches. Wherever you go in the world, Dminder tracks the sun and tells you when you can get vitamin D. The stopwatch interface lets you set your session target by either the amount of D to get or the time, then it will count up or down to your target, applying all the factors and determine how much D you can get, including your skin tone, your age, your weight, and the amount of skin exposed. All your doses of D from the sun or supplements are used to continuously estimate your current health.  Yeah. And it was developed with the World Authority on Vitamin D, Dr. Michael Hollick. We will put a link to that in the show notes.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. It's a reminder, this episode is definitely a reminder for me to get my vitamin D up, for sure.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, when was the last time you said you were low last time?

Barry Conrad

This is maybe a couple of months ago, just before the holidays, I should say, before that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I just think it's so, so powerful. And vitamin D, it's people think it's a vitamin, we didn't even say this, it's actually a hormone. And it's just involved in so much when it comes to especially immunity and bone health. I think those are the two like, really big things.  But then also, I was mentioning Dr. Stephen Gundry earlier, he talks about the role of vitamin D in the gut microbiome, which is also really huge. So lots of things.

Barry Conrad

It's so interesting though, because I feel like my immunity is generally pretty good, but if I could, if I'm like not getting as much as I could be, because I'm not getting enough vitamin D, then I'm selling myself short big time and for both the bone health as well.

Melanie Avalon

super important, but great question from Jodi. So thank you so much. Thanks Jodi. Okay. Shall we have our hypothetical? Maybe it is hypothetical. Is it hypothetical?

Barry Conrad

Is this simulate or do you not, what do you think of that word is simulated?

Melanie Avalon

our simulated breaking our fasts.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, let's do it. Okay. I'm excited.

Melanie Avalon

All right, yes. It's going to come to me, Berry. It's going to be like 3 a.m. and then the word is going to come into my mind. I'm going to be like, that's the word, our hypothetical. I think it... That's how we say it. Yeah, our simulated hypothetical. I like that. Our simulated hypothetical, breaking the fast.  Listeners, this is the time of the show where we'd like to celebrate. Fasting is not just about fasting. It's also about what you eat and your feasting. We should actually, probably when we introduce this segment each time, Berry, we should talk a little bit about that briefly. Just that you, if you only fast, the feeding period is so important for all of the benefits that you're going to get. And actually, even in things like Dr. Balter Longo, who came out with the fasting mimicking diet, his work shows that when people go on five-day fasts or they do this fasting mimicking diet, all the beneficial changes that happen with gene expression and stem cells and all of that happen when you eat. That's when a lot of the benefits come in. So it's really important that you really have your feasting window as well and think about all that muscle that you'll be maintaining, how you're spiking your metabolism. So many benefits. And we just love that fasting lets you really enjoy food still.

Barry Conrad

Because food is life. I love food so much. So good.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. So, okay. So the restaurant I have, I sent you the link. It's called the Pine Creek Cook House. Nice. Let me check this out. Have you been to Aspen?

Barry Conrad

That's all my bucklers. I really want to go, especially during Christmas. I'd love to try to check it out. Have you been?

Melanie Avalon

Yes. So it's where we used to go. Well, my family still goes, but I'm not the biggest traveler.  Every spring break, we would go to Aspen growing up. It's such a beautiful, like cool little town. I used to ski. Do you ski?

Barry Conrad

I don't I want to I really want to learn how but I don't I was about to say maybe like no I can't can you are you good

Melanie Avalon

Have you ever tried?

Barry Conrad

You know what, what I can do is I have tried snowboarding and I'm not bad at that because I used to skateboard when I was a kid, so that works.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's I feel like that's harder than skiing. I'm I feel like if you're raised with skiing, like if it's like where you go every spring break type thing, which is probably way more common in the US than Australia. We've got that in our favor.  It's like the moment when you're young and you decide, am I going to skiing route or am I going to the snowboarding route? Because you're like a little kid and you have to like enroll in school, you know, because they have I don't know if you know this. They have like ski school like when you're a kid. What? Yeah, because I guess this is not a thing in Australia. So yeah, what?

Barry Conrad

So tell me, tell me.

Melanie Avalon

So yeah, you're like, you go to these different mountains and ski places and there's like school, like ski school. But you have to choose if you're doing skiing or snowboarding, and then you're kind of like locked in.  I mean, I guess you're not locked in, I guess you can do both. But I went the skiing route is the point.

Barry Conrad

See, you must be pretty good.

Melanie Avalon

Well, no, I mean, I stopped, but I, I would do like blues comfortably because there's like green, blue, and then black. I think I did a black like a couple of times, but that's it. But I kind of stopped because I realize I don't like putting on all those clothes.

Barry Conrad

that's what you mean. What about the actual like experience going down these massive cliffs?

Melanie Avalon

I love the cold, but I don't like all that clothing and getting there is a lot. So when I had the realization, probably circa high school, that I could go in my family to Aspen and not ski, and I could just read books in the lobby, I was like, oh, this is fun. I'm gonna do this.  I'm gonna shop. I'm gonna shop during the day, read books in the lobby, and get dinner with my family at night. It's gonna be a fun time. And it was so fun.

Barry Conrad

That's actually hilarious.

Melanie Avalon

Speaking of dinner, this is one of my favorite restaurants in the entire world.

Barry Conrad

Wow. Okay. So you've been here.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's called the Pine Creek cookouts. It's an Aspen Can I tell you about this experience?  So to go there it's a little bit on the outskirts So you have to take a like presumably an Aspen you're staying downtown so it's a bit of a drive you have to get a driver to take you to the point not to the restaurant but to the like the point and then you get to the point and then you get into a sled a reindeer pulling a sled and you like bundle in there with your family and some other strangers They take you up to this cabin restaurant thing that you can only get to buy reindeer pulled sledding situations

Barry Conrad

Wow. It sounds like a Christmas movie or something. It doesn't seem real to me.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. And then the menu is everything I love, although I have a funny story about trying to order dessert there. So did you get the link?

Barry Conrad

I got the link i'm looking at it okay even the listeners like if you looking at this in real time with us you look it up welcome to the pine creek cookouts it's like. The photo on there looks like all cozy snows that looks cabernet this looks so much i love cabins i love snow so this is great.

Melanie Avalon

You would love it. I'm looking at pictures.  You can probably, I guess you can ski there too, or like ski walk or whatever these people are doing. Oh, not ski. They're like snow, you know, like snow shoes. They're like... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So the winter dinner menu, I guess to start, there's a rotating soup of the evening and a salad. They don't have like, they can't really make a lot of like substitutions and stuff because they only have like what they have type thing because they're like up there, you know. So, okay. So they have a soup, they have a salad, and then they have actually quite a few starters.

Barry Conrad

This all looks really good from what I'm seeing right now. This is looking like it's going to be hard to choose. I don't know. Actually I do know. I already see a couple of things.

Melanie Avalon

Oh wait, actually, okay, it's a little bit confusing because it says additional sharing items for the table and it's like all these different things, but, so I'm a little bit confused if you, cause some of these look like meals.

Barry Conrad

Like mains, like meals.

Melanie Avalon

So what would you get to start?

Barry Conrad

So, a clear, clear winner for my starter is going to be Ashcroft charcuterie board, because I love charcuterie, the meats, all the cheeses, that situation, and you know what, because we are up there, I'm going to try the soup of the day, because it's going to be light, and then I have to go for the smoked trout dip as well, the chilled smoked trout dip, so three, three things.

Melanie Avalon

Although we don't know if the soup is light. It could be like potato soup.

Barry Conrad

You know what? You're right. We don't know.  It could actually be quite heavy, so I'm going to go. I'm still going to try it. I'm going to go for the soup, go for the pinecreek chilled smoked trout dip, which is cold dip, quinoa flax seed crackers, crispy capers, preserved lemon. So good. The Ashcroft charcuterie board, which is daily cured local Colorado meats and a variety of daily local Colorado cheeses, seasonal food jam, pan smeared in almond flour, Farrah Poloff, prosciutto, wrapped asparagus. Oh, wow, this is amazing. So good.

Melanie Avalon

and sauce. What is that word? Minuet.

Barry Conrad

Minyori, do you like how I avoided that last part?

Melanie Avalon

I saw you. I was like, Oh, he didn't read the rest of it.

Barry Conrad

And, and what Barry and, and yeah, it's me.

Melanie Avalon

I see what you're doing there.

Barry Conrad

What would you get?

Melanie Avalon

I think I would just, the charcuterie board, I would want some of those local Colorado meats.

Barry Conrad

And Mel, you probably wouldn't ask, I guess because it's a chakuri word, you wouldn't say like leave anything off that because it's like you could just pick it in any way, right?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think realistically, like, would I clarify? I probably would.  I probably, I would probably ask. I'd be like, just to clarify, there's no, like, sauces on the meats, right? Then I'll go from there.

Barry Conrad

Melon, did you remember when we did, this is a few episodes back now, but we did the- We role played it? Yes. We might bring that back again at some point, but that was really funny.

Melanie Avalon

I hope this is helpful for people to know if they wanna, basically this shows you can order, if you have no dietary restrictions, you can order like berry. And if you have dietary restrictions, you can learn how to order like me.

Barry Conrad

And this is actually why this segment, other than highlighting how important the feasting window is, which is so important for all the benefits that we need and what happens in our bodies also just to realize to see two examples of I'm Barry and or I'm Melanie in terms of like the way you eat like, you know, Melanie's way more specific and that's amazing. And then I am but more liberal and there's no wrong. It's just whatever works for your body, right, Mel?

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. And I really want to empower people that... Because I think especially if people are trying to follow a certain diet, they think that restaurants are... That they can't eat at restaurants or they're scared about restaurants. I want to empower people that you can find things that work for your restaurants and you can be nice and you can learn how to order to make it be what you want to put in your body. And there's no shame there, there's no guilt.  Just be really nice, know what to ask. For me, it's really important to avoid seed oils like I was talking about. Was that in the... That was last episode I think or two episodes ago. Yeah. So it's all it's all very possible to order the way you like. So what would you get for your entree?

Barry Conrad

Ah, this is tough because I need to get this two that I really want.

Melanie Avalon

You can have two.

Barry Conrad

The Colorado lamb shank and the Rocky Mountain elk chop, they both look amazing, that has to happen. And the listeners, so it's grilled elk chop, stilton blue cheese, bread pudding, winter succotash, truffle steak butter, and that slow-raised lamb, rice, celery, root, pull onions, braised juice, huckleberry, mint jam.  It sounds incredible, actually. What about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon

So what's crazy? Okay, a few things.  One, I think we were talking a few episodes ago about elk. The first time I had elk was at this restaurant. Really? Yes. And I had that Rocky Mountain elk chop and it was just so amazing. Like it was so, so good.

Barry Conrad

Can you paint the picture? Is it like big, like what does it look like? How does it come presented? Like, is it a big chop? Is it a small chop?

Melanie Avalon

Well, okay, when I went, was it actually the elk? I got elk, but maybe it wasn't an elk chop because I don't remember it being, are chops always bone in or can you get no bone elk chops or like chops, like pork chop, is it always on the bone?

Barry Conrad

I feel like it's always on the bone, from what I'd, yeah, reckon.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, okay, no. So pork chops can be bone in or boneless. So it's just the area that it is. I don't remember the elk I had, I don't think it was on the bone. So I'm envisioning it was more like a steak. So I'm not sure if it was... That's the first thing I would clarify with them.  Is it on the bone or not? Do you like things on the bone or not on the bone?

Barry Conrad

I am of the train of thought, like I don't have any shame eating in public, like eating off the bone and stuff, because I'm South African. So I don't mind if it's in the bone, but what I will say is it has to make sense.  So if there's like hardly any meat on that bone, give me the filet. But if it's like a big portion, give me the bone. I love just the feeling of like, feels like primal, like eating off the bone. I love it.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like you get so much just extra flavor. So my favorite cut of steak is a bone in filet. I just, I love a bone in filet. Really? Yes.  Well, because you get like, I love the filet because it's so tender, but it's also really lean. And we were talking a few episodes ago about the fat in meat versus not. And I prefer leaner meats. So I love that filets are leaner, but then you get that extra flavor that maybe you're losing some flavor by not having as much fat. You get it from, you get extra flavor from the bone. I just love bone in. I love bone in lean cuts.

Barry Conrad

So if you had a steak, do they call it a sirloin over there or do they call it a New York steak, because I know sometimes it's different.

Melanie Avalon

I think we talked about this, didn't we talk about that? Because here, sirloin is a different cut than fillet. But I think, I feel like we had a whole, am I making this up? I feel like we had a whole conversation where we realized that cuts are called different things for us, which was really confusing.  Because it's already confusing. So to add that language barrier, which is not even, it's the same language, but it's different.

Barry Conrad

Do you pick it up and eat it like off the bone or do you cut like around it really cute and nice?

Melanie Avalon

I cut really cute and nice if I'm at a restaurant.

Barry Conrad

Why'd I ask that? I knew that.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Well, here's the thing. Wait, actually, do you want the real answer? So always in a restaurant, I use a fork and knife.  And at home I used to go like primal style, like teeth in no fork and knife. Then I got veneers and we cannot do that with veneers. So.

Barry Conrad

I appreciate the honesty. I love that. I'm all for it. You've told me this, right? Or you've, you know, told me.

Melanie Avalon

I know I've talked about it. I don't know if I've told you.  Maybe. Do you have veneers? I don't. No. So fun fact. Veneers were a game changer for me because my diet, okay, well, multiple fun facts here. Highly pigmented foods tend to be really good for you because of the compounds in them. So think what's really highly pigmented that's not artificial. It's things like coffee, blueberries, wine. So all those colors are great for you because they usually indicate there's some sort of polyphenol content, antioxidants, nutrients, also very staining for your teeth. So I was eating a diet of basically like blueberries and wine and meat and yeah, my teeth were not having it. And then I discovered the world of veneers and my life changed.  I was like, oh my gosh, I can eat all the things and they don't even change color.

Barry Conrad

So really, so actually, so for real, like, is that a thing where with veneers, you can actually drink more coffee and eat the colored foods and it won't stay in it? Is that a thing?

Melanie Avalon

veneers don't stain yeah so like whatever color you get like because you pick your shade done they don't stain i mean if they're like porcelain veneers i don't know if there are other like other forms that do stain but one of the most like life you know like you do some things in your life and you're like wow this is like life-changing that was life-changing for me

Barry Conrad

When did you get them and are we going off topic?

Melanie Avalon

I've had them a few years, but then I hit the moment where I was like, oh, because for a while I was getting like normal veneers, just like at my normal tooth shade, but they wouldn't stain. And then I realized, oh, I can get veneers that are like white, like Hollywood smile. And that was really exciting.  And so I did that.

Barry Conrad

You do have a great smile, by the way.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you. It's not really mine.  I mean, it is, but I actually, fun fact, because when I was getting them, they were like, you can give us like a, we can make whatever. So you can show us what you want. And I was like, oh. So I was like, I want Margot Robbie's teeth from Barbie. So like, I have Margot Robbie's teeth. They made my veneers to look like her mouth, like her teeth.

Barry Conrad

That's a good pick. I'm not mad at that.

Melanie Avalon

It's not funny though. It was like, yeah, it was really exciting. So that was, I think it was not this past like Christmas, Thanksgiving time, but the time before that. There you go.  And the thing not to stay on this tangent. I promise we're going to come back to the restaurant.

Barry Conrad

The listeners love it. They love it.

Melanie Avalon

The thing that makes me feel better about it, because like I feel bad about it. Like I feel like, oh, I should just have like perfect teeth and everything. But if we look at paleolithic men, like men, they, and women, they struggled in the tooth department. Like cavities, their teeth were falling out.  The reason we have, do you know the Mary Conrad? Do you know why we have wisdom teeth? Tell me. We have wisdom teeth because they were extra teeth because it was just like assumed from evolution that you were gonna lose your teeth. So we developed extra teeth to fill in like when we lost our teeth. Isn't that crazy?

Barry Conrad

Okay. I didn't know that. And also on a wisdom- Isn't that mind-blowing? It is. And also on wisdom teeth. I need to get mine out, by the way. Do you have yours out or are they in?

Melanie Avalon

And I to this day have TMJ issues from when I got them out. So yeah proceed with caution

Barry Conrad

No, I need not because they flare up every like out of the blue and they so painful. So I need to just get rid of them.

Melanie Avalon

That's weird. So is that not a normal because like here in the US it's like very normal.  You just like take kids with some teeth out like kids here like people here don't help with some teeth because it's just normal that you it's like protocol like is that not protocol there.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. Thanks for Australia. Shaming me again.  No, it's, no, it's, it's, I don't think it's protocol here. It's not a thing. It's like you get it out if it's an issue. So I need to get them out, but I'm also trying to find like a window where I can kind of be like out of office kind of thing for like, how long did you take to recover? Oh, well, you wouldn't remember cause you're a baby.

Melanie Avalon

I remember how old I was because my, it was 2012, I came back for, I was at home, my sister was graduating, I got my wisdom teeth out. The next day I looked like a chipmunk. My face, it was like horrible and my parents, to this day, I think I made the wrong decision there, which was my parents made me go to my sister's graduation and it's like at our school so it's like seeing everybody that you know, you know, type thing and I looked like a chipmunk. I was so embarrassed.  I was wearing like sunglasses inside. My parents made me go to this day. I'm all about supporting people. I don't think I should have had to go to that graduation because I, it was such a miserable experience like being there. I was like, nobody look at me. But to recover, they did not, they like didn't give me the proper recovery protocol and it was like rough. It was not good. So make sure that you get the right protocol and, but you know what, here's something. I think it would be, I think I would recover better now with all my health stuff that I do because that was before I had had all my like health, like my, cleaned up my diet, doing intermittent fasting, all my biohacking, anti-inflammatory stuff. I think I would recover a lot better now, kind of, yeah, that's what I think.

Barry Conrad

Well there you go how long how long do i need to leave like a week is that a safe amount of time a week.

Melanie Avalon

I literally do not remember how long it was, but if I were to guess, yeah, probably. But the thing is, you also, I feel like your health is really amazing.  You do all the things, kind of like when you broke your ankle, right? My ankle. Yeah, and didn't you heal like super fast?

Barry Conrad

I healed faster than normal, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I think if you did it now, you have all that going for you and you could do all the stuff to support it. Like I think the fasting would support it.  I think red light therapy, like I feel like Barry Conrad would be pretty good with the

Barry Conrad

watch the space like in the next few episodes I'll report back I would have got them out because I have to do it anyway back to the back to the menu sorry if that was gross for you guys but

Melanie Avalon

I think it's really interesting. Yeah, do you have all four teeth?

Barry Conrad

I do.

Melanie Avalon

and you get pain from it.

Barry Conrad

When I do it's really noticeable and also it's just not great like why would you have it there when bacteria could like this is not this is so gross but like you know it's it's better to have them out so I just need to get them out.

Melanie Avalon

And also see if you can find like a holistic dentist if that's an option.

Barry Conrad

Well, I apparently may need to go under because one of them's, like, more impacted.

Melanie Avalon

That was my next question. I was like, are they impacted?

Barry Conrad

Yeah. So I can't, yeah. It's going to be like under, I think, because it's just, it's kind of right in there.

Melanie Avalon

Keep us updated!

Barry Conrad

It'll be a bit like, hey, I will do a lucky episode when I have a chipmunk face.

Melanie Avalon

I have a request. If you get this done, can we like talk when you are loopy on the, like when you come out?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, deal.

Melanie Avalon

And can we record? Yeah, can we record it?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, that's okay. I'll figure it out. What I'll have to do is probably set up the podcast equipment so I can just stumble inside and just press record because I won't know how to connect anything.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, perfect. Okay, back to Pine Creek cook house. So I would also get the same thing that you picked. I would get the elk and the lamb, I think. Although I also really like the idea of the salmon. So I think I'm going to get the salmon for dessert.  So the salmon is pan seared, schoona, bay salmon, gluten-free. Oh, so here's something. The menu says what's gluten-free in parentheses. And I want to empower people that even if the menu says that, so you think, oh, only a certain few things are gluten-free, you can make most things gluten-free by modifications if you talk with the waitstaff.  So some empowerment there. But yes, I would get the elk top that you got. I would get it rare. How did you want yours cooked?

Barry Conrad

You know what? Because I've, to be honest, like I obviously know what Alk is, but I haven't had it in so long. So I'm going to go rare. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon

And then how about the lamb?

Barry Conrad

Medium rare, but Melanie I was gonna actually say why don't why don't we just share one of them and you can that way you can like by the way so if I'm getting the elk chop in lamb shank and you want to get the elk chop and so we can kind of share the salmon and lamb.

Melanie Avalon

And I'm getting the salmon for dessert. Okay, all right. And the salmon comes with wilted spinach, blistered tomatoes, fried capers, lemon butter sauce. So I will get it all on the side.  Delicious. What are you gonna get for dessert?

Barry Conrad

I have two choices and I bet you can probably guess them.

Melanie Avalon

I think you want the... Actually, I don't know. Do you want the bourbon pecan pie?

Barry Conrad

Yes, tick, what's the other choice?

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Pressure's on. Well, I know you like vanilla ice cream, but that you probably don't want to waste. You probably don't want it like that.  Okay. I'm going to say the pecan pie and the apple crisp.

Barry Conrad

Melanie, my favorite thing ever is chocolate.

Melanie Avalon

Really? And I said vanilla too. Oh, such a fail. I thought you liked vanilla.

Barry Conrad

I feel, okay, I love vanilla ice cream with, remember we did the, what is it? Remember we did this thing where it's chocolate on chocolate, vanilla and vanilla? Remember that thing?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, yes.

Barry Conrad

Bourbon peak, pecan pie.

Melanie Avalon

I will never make this mistake again. Okay.  You want the, you want the warm chocolate brownie and the bourbon pecan pie. Yeah. Shall I tell you the funny story though about the dessert when we went there? Tell me. So I think last time I went there, it was around the time I had started my low carb diet, but not, not like paleo or everything I do today, just low carb. And so when I was in that phase, I would always get cheese as dessert, like cheese desserts. And to this day, I will not forget this because we went there and people were ordering desserts. And I was like, can I get cheese for dessert? And they said no. And it was really upsetting to me because I know they had cheese on the menu. I was like, I know you have cheese in the kitchen because there's cheese on other things. So why can I not get like cheese as a dessert? And to this day, it's like, it's like a joke in our family that I was so upset that they would not bring me cheese for dessert.

Barry Conrad

I could just see you sitting there, like really upset, folding your arms, like.

Melanie Avalon

No, but actually, I think that now like that actually doesn't make sense because it's not cheap, like it's an expensive nice place and they have cheese in the kitchen. So I think they should have brought me cheese for dessert.  Just saying.

Barry Conrad

I think they should have as well. Like, seriously, Pine Creek Cookhouse, where you at?  Like, this is not this. I think it might have been a server that, you know, I feel like it was the manager, they probably would have like been fine. But I think it's just a service like, no, we don't do that. That's not on the menu.

Melanie Avalon

They probably didn't want to deal, which I completely understand and respect, because I was there. But it doesn't matter, because if we ever go now, I don't eat cheese, so now, so it's fine. I'll just get the salmon. All good.  Yep. But I do. I do. I highly recommend this restaurant. It's one of my favorites. In the world, I must go back.  Well, anything else or shall we wrap this up?

Barry Conrad

Let's wrap it on up.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, listeners, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you would like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions at ifodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 416. That will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And yeah, I think that's all the things.  Anything from you, before we go.

Barry Conrad

Thank you so much for tuning in, happy fasting and feasting and we'll see you next time.

Melanie Avalon

Likewise, I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad

Talk to you next week. Bye!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.  If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.  See you next week!

Mar 29

Episode 415 – Special Guest Matthew Lederman, Finding The Diet That Works For You, Low Protein Benefits, Whole Foods (The Store And Food!), Reducing Added Oils, Toxins In Animal Products, Plant Based Diets, Finding Calm, Stopping Stress With webe kälm, Parenting Paradigms Shift, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 415 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC


SPECIAL GUEST BIO

Matthew Lederman, MD, is a board-certified Internal Medicine Physician and a pioneering thought leader in holistic health. Renowned for his innovative integration of plant-based nutrition, Nonviolent Communication (NVC), trauma-informed care, and lifestyle medicine, Dr. Lederman's work highlights the profound interconnectedness of physical, emotional, and relational well-being.
Dr. Lederman is the co-host of the webe Parents podcast, a platform dedicated to equipping parents with tools and insights to foster emotional connection, resilience, and well-being in their families. His latest book, Wellness to Wonderful, weaves together medical science, psychology, spirituality, and life wisdom to guide individuals toward lasting health, vibrancy, peace, and joy.
He has co-authored six books, including the New York Times Bestseller Forks Over Knives Plan, and was featured in the acclaimed documentary Forks Over Knives. Through these works, he has shared his transformative approach to wellness with audiences around the globe.

In addition to his roles as a clinician, educator, speaker, and corporate advisor, Dr. Lederman has served as Vice President of Medical Affairs at Whole Foods Market, lectured for eCornell, and provided adjunct faculty instruction in medical schools. He also co-created the webe kälm device, designed to promote emotional regulation and soothe the nervous system.


webeKalm.com | webeParents.com | connectiondocs.substack.com

IG | FB


Books:

The Forks Over Knives Plan: How to Transition to the Life-Saving, Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet

WELLNESS TO WONDERFUL: 9 Pillars for Living Healthier, Longer, and with Greater Joy

The Whole Foods Diet: The Lifesaving Plan for Health and Longevity


Plus, my listeners can get 25% off webe kälm at ifpodcast.com/webe!


SHOW NOTES


SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS


WEBE KÄLM

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!


Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.


Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.


TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)


Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 415 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.  Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode 415, and I am here today with a very, very special guest. I am so excited about today's episode. So the backstory on today's show, I met Dr. Matthew Letterman, I don't even know now, probably a few years ago, I think, because I've had him on the Melanie Adlon biohacking podcast twice. The backstory is I received information about his work, and I was an immediate yes, because I was so familiar with his background and what he does. So he has co-authored six books, including The New York Times bestseller Forks Over Knives Plan, and he was also in the acclaimed documentary Forks Over Knives. He also authored the book The Whole Foods Diet, and he did that with John Mackey, who's the co-founder and former CEO of Whole Foods. And I'd read that book before I explored Forks Over Knives, so I was super familiar. And when his people reached out to me, it was for his new book at the time, which was called Wellness to Wonderful, Nine Pillars for Living Healthier, Longer, and with Greater Joy. So I had him on the show. We talked about that book. That book was incredible. It was such a holistic approach to health. It went into all the things to work on, you know, when it comes to health. So diet and nutrition and sleep, which Matt and I were just talking about before this, as well as a lot of mindset and social things. And I, because when I started reading that book, Wellness to Wonderful, I wasn't anticipating just how much of it was going to be the mental, emotional, social side of things. So I was really interested in that. So that was a great interview. I will put a link to it in the show notes. And also during all of that, I learned about Matt's incredible products called WeBeCalm, which we will definitely talk about today. It's a really cool device that helps you gamify breathing exercises for kids and adults. I actually gave one to my mom for Christmas. And it's a way to just instantly bring some calm into your life. So that's really amazing.

Melanie Avalon

So I had him back on the show for both that, as well as his podcast, the WeBe Parents podcast, which he co-hosts with his wife, Alana, they actually both wrote the Wellness to Wonderful as well. That was a lot.  Matt, by the way, he's also a board certified internal medicine physician, a specialist in something called Nonviolent Communication, which I bet we will talk about in today's show. And he's just super savvy, super knowledgeable and so many of these tools and techniques that can really boost people's health. So I knew we had to have him on this show. So Dr. Letterman, Matt, thank you so much for being here.

Matthew Lederman

Wow, what an introduction. I hope I can live up to all that. That was amazing.

Melanie Avalon

No, no, you definitely, definitely will. I've just so enjoyed having you on the shows and really, really appreciate your work.  I was thinking about this before we started. I don't think we actually talked and we might have, but in any of my prior interviews with you, I'm really curious, you worked for, what was your position with Whole Foods for like a long time? What was your position there?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I was the vice president of medical affairs there.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that's okay. So that's like a very impressive title. I wasn't even aware that that was a role at Whole Foods. Like what did you do in that role? That's so cool.

Matthew Lederman

Me and Alona, who's my partner at work and in life, worked for them for 10 years. We helped them open medical centers that treated employees with this comprehensive paradigm.  There was doctors and more time with patients. There was a more holistic team with health coaches. There was acupuncture, mental health support. And then we partnered, I mean, as nurse practitioners to different level providers. And then we partnered with like-minded healthcare systems that were focusing on optimizing health and wellbeing and minimizing overtreatment and all of the harmful, unnecessary care that happens in a lot of the conventional healthcare systems. And then we would get specialists that also were focused on dealing with the overtreatment problem. A lot of people think the key to getting good specialists is someone that knows about the obscure diagnosis, but more often than not, the bigger problem is finding specialists that don't overtreat, which can only hurt people and doesn't help them. So it was trying to put together a network. We helped them create an insurance plan that incentivized this type of care and put all that together with them.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. Okay.  That is so cool. By the over-trading, do you mean specialists where it's like if you have a hammer, everything's a nail, like they see the thing everywhere or actually over-trading once they diagnose it?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, so there's a lot of things that like blood pressure, it's used blood pressure for an example, they'll give you way too much medication to try and get your number significantly low and make your number look normal. But data shows that if you try to give someone a normal looking blood pressure number with medication, you actually can increase strokes, heart attacks and death. So if your blood pressure is really high, medication is great to get it down as far as decreasing strokes. If it's getting a little bit lower, but getting it to look normal would be considered over treatment because the data shows that it can't help you, it only hurts you.  But everybody thinks a normal number means normal health. And if you're getting normal numbers with medication and not die in lifestyle, then that's actually harmful. So that would be an example. There's a screening for cancer, a lot of screenings, there's harms that are not explained. So we inflate the benefit of screening and we under represent the harms from screening so that people can't make an informed decision.  So there's two back surgeries, another one way too much happening, using back surgery to treat pain doesn't work. And yet, millions and millions of dollars are spent on doing that to patients who just feel terrible and it doesn't help them.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, statins, would that be one maybe?

Matthew Lederman

Statins for secondary prevention, like if you've had heart attacks or strokes, the data's pretty good. But a lot of people take statins and think, oh, my cholesterol number's down, I'm good, I can eat whatever I want because I'm on the statin. And it doesn't work that way. So just because you have a normal cholesterol number with a statin doesn't mean you have the health of someone who has a normal number because of diet and lifestyle.  So they do benefit people, particularly if they've had a heart attack or stroke or something like that before. But it's definitely not, to me it's something you do as an adjunct, not the primary focus of the treatment.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that actually happened to my friend yesterday. He had a heart attack and he didn't see it coming at all and he had completely normal cholesterol levels.

Matthew Lederman

And that's the thing we'll tell people, we'll say, we don't know what normal is for you. I know what your normal is when I put you on a whole food plant-based diet and some exercise, and after six to 12 weeks, I see what your cholesterol does.  Because I've had people who have a cholesterol of 200, and they go down to 180 on these diet and lifestyles, and that's a normal cholesterol for them. I've had people that are 140 total cholesterol, and they get down to 190. So 140, even though for most people they'd say, that's great for this person on the American diet with a 140, they actually needed to be down at 90. So it's an indicator, it's not a definition of health, it's an indicator of how your health is doing. Given the other circumstances though, you need to take those into account.

Melanie Avalon

to clarify that was for the employees at Whole Foods that could engage with it.

Matthew Lederman

Yes, that was for the employees, correct?

Melanie Avalon

That's so cool. Did that continue on after you left?

Matthew Lederman

It was great. It showed a 20% reduction in health care cost, health care spend.  And then it was Whole Foods was bought by Amazon and it's just a big, big company. And they were looking into, they were started expanding it. When we left, it was sort of, we showed that the pilots worked and they wanted to expand it. But I was, me and Alona were not as excited about just reproduction. We wanted to be more in the creative side of things and adding to it. And we also wanted to expand into what we call connection medicine. And basically once Amazon came and some other things started changing, we decided to go out and do what we wanted to do, but do it on our own so we didn't have to work within the confines of a big corporation and legal systems and things like that.  So now I think Amazon, it's so big, they wanted something that they could create and spread very quickly. And this was more grassroots. So I don't know if they continued it in any capacity, but we left five years ago. So I'm not sure what's happened since then.

Melanie Avalon

Gotcha. Yeah, I'm I'm super curious because I've been a whole foods girl for quite a while and it's been interesting to see especially with the Amazon merger and the change and everything. It's been interesting to see it. It's definitely I appreciate now that I can use all my Amazon benefits and it's actually helped. It seems some prices and things like that. I always wonder what's happening behind the scenes though with everything. So very interesting.  Okay, so you hinted at it a lot, which is that there's so much to health beyond just like diet and beyond just, you know, what you see in your blood work and things like that. Before we get more into that, I am super curious. This is the intermittent fasting podcast. What are your thoughts? Because you're you come from a whole food plant based diet approach to to health and wellness. What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting for health?

Matthew Lederman

I think the most important thing is that you eat whole plant foods and you minimize or eliminate the processed foods and that includes extracted added oils, extracted added sweeteners, added sodium as much as possible. And the same thing with animal products. You don't have to be, for a majority of chronic illnesses, you don't have to be vegan, but we eat way too many animal products. And there's a lot of reasons that eating no animal products can be a good thing, but regardless of what you decide to do on that end of your own, people have to eat significantly less animal products.  I don't know what your thoughts are, Melanie, on animal products or what your audience, do you have a sense of what your audience's view is on animal products?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was just thinking how I'm excited to be having this conversation because I feel like we heavily, the majority of the guests that come on are often in like the paleo or you know, keto type world. And then my former co-host and my current co-host, we're all very big supporters. So I like to say that I am dietary agnostic. I'm dietary agnostic in that I think people can follow diets that work for them.  So some people do do well on vegan. I think a lot of people struggle to get enough protein or certain forms of nutrients that might be higher in animal-based foods. Some people do really well on a more animal-based diet. Some people do well on, you know, a very omnivore type approach. So I think it's about finding the diet that works for you. But then I think when you step back from that, there are some key tenets that apply. So and you probably just said all of them, like whole foods, so, you know, cutting out these processed foods, avoiding these additives, this added, you know, sugar and flavors and added sodium and just all these different additives and preservatives, just not good. And then the third thing is I do think it's really important to focus on protein. So that's why I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on protein because I think people get very confused, especially on this show because we talk all the time about the importance of protein. How do you feel about protein intake?

Matthew Lederman

My view on protein is probably going to upset most of your viewers. So I'm trying to make sure that I say clearly up front is that, you know, what feels best for your body. And when I work with clients, ultimately, that's what I want to do is help them check into their bodies and see what feels good. And then I also want them to isolate the variables. So sometimes they make a conclusion because they have compounding variables or there's confusion.  For example, some people who start on a plant-based diet, the calorie density is significantly lower. So they can go from 2000 calories per pound to 500 calories per pound, which is a quarter of the calories per pound of food. And if you try to eat the same portion sizes over a period of days, you'll start to have calorie deficiency and you'll feel lower energy and fatigue and cravings. And then they'll go out and they'll say, it must be the protein. I need animal protein. And then they'll go out and eat a big burger, which is like a calorie bolus. And then they feel better.  And they say, see, it was the animal products. And what I have to explain to them is you can eat animal products if you want, but what helped you there was the calorie bolus. And we need to adjust your diet to deal with the calorie deficiency. It's not an animal protein deficiency. And then they can still choose to eat animal products, but I want them to do it for the reasons, for the right reasons, if you will, but that makes sense. So I want to make sure people have information. They take that information can make an informed decision about what works best for them. So with that caveat, I tell people that protein should be the last thing you were, it's the first thing everybody's worried about.  For me, it's the last thing. In fact, I'm working on ways to get less protein because I eat a whole food plant-based diet. I'm getting excessive amounts of protein. And when we're talking about protein, what we really care about is the essential amino acids. And I'm, I'm blowing away if because of my diet is full of whole foods, there's no added oils and sugars, which are, those are actually devoid of protein oils and sugars give you calories without any protein. So if your diet has a lot of oil and sugar, you can start to get, it's still probably hard, but you can still, you're definitely getting a significant portion of calories without any protein. I don't have that problem because all my calories come with essential amino acids because I'm getting them from whole plant foods.  So the problem with too much protein is that you don't store it. It doesn't, it doesn't magically, you know, get stored in the body. It doesn't, you know, you can't eat protein and all of a sudden gets pushed into your biceps. It's floating around and your body eliminates it. So you'll, and that puts stress on the bones and the kidneys and the liver. And the more protein you have that you don't need, the more your body has to work to eliminate it.

Matthew Lederman

And then I have a whole slideshow that I take people through to show them how they determined what is the minimum safe requirements. And then what they do is they put a buffer in there. So the minimum like different organizations that have recommendations for protein for populations, they put a safety buffer in there because each person's a little bit different, but they put something in the, you know, so they'll double the amount that made that the person who had the biggest protein requirement of the group in a test study, they would double that amount. So that's more than double what most people need. So if you're getting what's quote unquote, the minimum requirement, you're still getting a safety buffer of twice as much as you need. So knowing that even if you're getting the, you're just meeting the minimum requirements, you're going to do fine. The recommendation for populations with these minimum requirements is basically saying, if we make this requirement to a population, almost all of them not going to get into any trouble if they follow that. And that's the answer.  Yes, they're all going to do fine. So knowing that if I'm working out more, I'm going to eat more calories because I'm going to be hungrier and because I'm burning more calories. And when I eat more calories, guess what? If they're whole plant foods and not oil or sugar, I'm getting more protein. So if I work harder and expend more energy, I'm going to eat more calories and I'm going to get more protein.

Melanie Avalon

I so appreciate this conversation and I think it's really helpful because what's really important to me in life is to interview and talk to people of all different perspectives because if not, I think we get really siloed and it can be hard to know if we're being biased or cherry picking or whatever it may be. So I really appreciate having this conversation.  So the first point you made, I want to communicate that I understand it and I see it go the other way as well. So you made the example of how people, you know, might be needing calories so they eat a burger and then they think that they think it was like the protein that made them feel better but really they just needed the calories. I feel like that happens and then I feel like it also happens on the flip side where people might cut out, maybe they go completely plant-based or vegan and they cut out everything and they feel massively better and so then they think that going that restrictive on plant-based only was what it was but maybe it was cutting out all these other things and then in the future they might need to bring back selectively some animal-based products if they need certain nutrients that they're not able to get enough of. So I feel like it can happen both ways.

Matthew Lederman

What are those nutrients that people are worried about, would you say? Because I think they can, I think people can add some animal products back and still be healthy.  But what other than B12, what nutrient would you say that people can only get if they eat animal products?

Melanie Avalon

Well, so the only one that they can quote, I guess only only get would be, like you said, be 12, but then people can have like spirulina.

Matthew Lederman

But just to clarify, B12 comes from bacteria. And the animals get the bacteria and make the B12. And then they accumulate the B12. So animal products are basically like a supplement.  It's not like the animals make the B12 either. So to me, I just wanted to add this in about the B12, that it's made by bacteria. And then we can either get that from a supplement that stores this B12, or we could get it from an animal product that stores B12. Or we could, I guess, potentially stop eating really, really clean food and maybe get some B12 that way. Just to clarify, because when I said B12, I just wanted to make it clear that for anyone listening that I'm not saying that they can only get that from animal products or that animal products are producing it.

Melanie Avalon

Right and kind of kind of the same way like meat from animals they ate grass and turn it into meat so similar concept actually.

Matthew Lederman

Right. I just want to make sure vegans don't hear this and say, oh, I could eat lettuce and I'll get my B12. If you're vegan, they're going to get into trouble without a B12 supplement.  So just to be careful that, yes, if you're eating animal products, sometimes they even need to supplement B12. Even eating animal products isn't enough for some people. But yeah, you definitely need to supplement B12.  You can't get that. Even if you don't wash your lettuce, it's not enough.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'll do a shout out for my spirulina because it's super high in B12 and it is vegan. So there is a solution for people.

Matthew Lederman

Who don't want to eat animals or take pills, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

The other nutrients I'd be thinking, I think there's quite a few nutrients that are just easier for people to get and assimilate in the plant-based form. So EPA, DHA, so with their omega-3s, getting them in the plant that like from fish compared to converting it from ALA and plants, some people genetically might not have the best conversion there. And then with a lot of fat, soluble vitamins are easier to get in from animal products.  Creatine from animal products and protein, I think if you are going and getting just direct animal meat, like lean protein, you're getting those amino acids in a form that I think will be a lot better for stimulating. I know it's ironic because we're talking about anti-aging and reducing protein for reducing IGF-1 and reducing mTOR and increasing AMPK for longevity. But when you're intentionally in the growth state and wanting to support muscle mass and support building your body, I think a lot of people can assimilate and get that better from animal-based protein, easier for them. And a lot of it depends on your gut microbiome, like how good they are at what they do with plants or not.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I mean, people can stay if your goal is to stimulate growth, it's a different goal than if your goal is health. And I think at that point, like you're saying, maybe you want to do if you manipulate the diet, when taking isolated protein powder is going to stimulate IGF one insulin like growth factor, which is going to stimulate growth, you know, getting hormones that are in your animal animal products is going to stimulate growth. So there's different ways we can stimulate growth. But I'm helping people, if you're trying to avoid cancer, stimulation of growth is something you want to avoid as well.  So it's just a matter of balancing like, hey, what's your priority, and then helping people meet their needs around that party, because I don't want to come across like, I'm saying this is the right way to do it, and everything else is wrong, it's really important to check in with people, what they want, and what works for them. I just, I just also want to make sure I get people, even if it's another view, like there's some people say, oh, I'm getting older, I can't absorb animal products as well if they're from plants, or I can't absorb protein as well if it's from plants versus animals. That is not my experience. That's not what I see in the data. I know people will talk about creatine, even though that's naturally synthesized in the body from amino acids, arginine, glycine, and methionine, primarily in the liver, kidneys, pancreas. So it's not an essential nutrient. Now, if people for somehow take creatine and they say, wow, my life is amazing, and it's so much better. Like, that's great. I just want to make sure that people who feel great already don't say, oh my God, I need to eat animals, I need to eat creatine, and I need to get more protein, or I'm going to be hurting myself. I think that's what I worry about are the people that are feeling great that are then second guessing themselves. But if on the flip side, you're having a problem, or you somehow you do something and you feel better and it still feels safe enough, you knock yourself out. My worry with animal products is, hey, now it's cholesterol, no fiber, environmental contaminants that are in there that bioaccumulate as they eat up the food chain, and then just the effect of some of the animal products and the more acidic amino acids that tend to be from them with the sulfur-containing amino acids. So I tell people, if you feel better doing this, that's ultimately what you should trust your body. But if you're feeling great and you hear something and it makes you second-guess yourself, then I have a higher bar before I would switch anything.

Melanie Avalon

I so appreciate your communicating everything really clearly. I so appreciate your perspective.  I love that you have this perspective, and I think it's really valuable that people hear all different sides of the coin. I really like the central tenet of listening to your body and finding what works for you and being smart about it and seeing what nutrients do you actually need. And we can go more into listening into your body. That's a good segue. But before that, I just have a few other thoughts. I am literally haunted by this protein aging question. Anytime I bring on anybody who remotely might have an idea about it, I ask them. So I've had a lot of people, I don't want to make it like camps, but I've had people with similar viewpoints to you that I've interviewed, so like Dr. Michael Gregor, Neil Bernard, and Walter Longo. And I'm always asking them this question about the trade-off with a high-protein diet and IGF-1, mTOR, aging, and then also this question which you referenced. And I'm curious. It does seem to be pretty accepted that after the age of 60, that people do need to increase their protein intake. But you're saying you've seen some people that don't need to increase as they get older?

Matthew Lederman

Do you see a question you're saying it to people over the age of 60?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think that's the cutoff that they give usually for when people need to increase their protein intake.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I don't I don't see that if if somebody I if people are meeting their caloric needs With whole plant foods meaning they're not getting a lot of processed foods I don't I don't know of a Disease some people will say oh their muscles are wasting and they're they start losing muscle mass They lose muscle mass because they're not active because they're not well There's there's some changes that happen just as you age But as far as a majority of the the the damage it will be When they are not as active they're not doing the resistance. They're not doing flexibility training all of which Are required if you don't use it you lose it, but it's not because they're not eating animal products It's now maybe there's this one, you know, i'm not going to say never But I don't think the majority of people as they get older 60 All of a sudden need to either eat animal products or somehow start supplementing protein powders or they need to Push the caloric intake beyond what they feel satisfied with because that's essentially what I would imagine what happened If you're saying that they're not you or experts are saying That when you hit 60 you need more protein Then to me what they're basically saying is don't listen to your hunger signals Even though you're you're good at you need more than that And or you need to start taking some A non-whole food some type of isolated protein powder Or you need to change the concentration of the protein.  So instead of eating, you know You gotta gotta pack in all of these beans, let's say and I don't think any of those Are needed or make people healthier, but I do believe there's problems with people as they get older with not being active Not doing the flexibility training not or not doing it correctly or both And have not getting in the sun or getting the vitamin d so there's there's other issues But I would I would put my focus a little bit differently

Melanie Avalon

I agree completely that it could be causation correlation with people getting older and not getting the stimulus they need to, you know, maintain, definitely not grow, but at least maintain that muscle. The other thought would be, I can also see the issues that you mentioned with animal products like contaminants and things like that.  I feel like that goes across the board though, like you could have, you know, pesticides and issues and plant-based foods. And then on the flip side, you could choose. So I pretty much just eat, you know, responsibly raised, toxin free for fish. I only eat low mercury fish because I'm very much concerned about heavy metals. So I think that can be navigated and then the cholesterol thing, I feel like that is more

Matthew Lederman

Could I speak to the environmental contaminant thing? Yeah. So the problem with anopox is that there's bioaccumulation. So things like dioxins and PBDEs, and also they accumulate and break down just based on their half-lives. So you can't eliminate them. They can be passed to the baby through the placenta and the milk, but essentially, you have to just wait for it to break down.  When an animal, so let's say there's a grain that has so many parts per million of an environmental contaminant, and you eat that grain directly, versus if you eat an animal that had to eat 10 times or 20 times the amount of grain to get to be the big animal, you're basically eating 20 times in a serving of animal products. You're eating 20 times the amount of that environmental contaminant than you would if you just ate the grain directly. So again, I'm not saying people have to eat grains, but if they look up how biomagnification works, that's the problem with animal products. And eating even organic animal products, it's getting passed down from the mom to the kid. And it's just something that it's hard to avoid. And I wish there was a way where that wasn't an issue, but I have not seen any example where you don't have to worry about environmental contaminant, the biomagnification issue.

Melanie Avalon

So there are like measurable levels of these if you find the best of the best sources with organic pasture raised animal products.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, that doesn't it doesn't matter. And you can look I mean, we'll have to talk offline afterwards. I can show you there's even graphs where they look at this and they know. I mean, milk was one of the biggest as far as dioxin contamination, like it's just because it gets passed down for the mom into the milk. So keep every time it's getting more and more concentrated. So it's just it's just hard to avoid.  And that's why you want to eat as low on the food chain as possible, or at least have as much calories as you can tolerate as low on the food chain. Like I said, I'm not against people eating animal products. I just want them to know about all this so they can decide, hey, which one is it worth it? And when is it not?

Melanie Avalon

I'm very concerned with the environmental toxins and especially in the seafood. So hard to get clean, yeah.  I had mercury toxicity in the past and that was just from fish and after that I became so aware of it and I think people don't realize, they don't realize that if you have a piece of fish high up on the food chain on your plate, you can't see these toxins. So you can't see just how much can be in there and you don't realize that, oh, if I have a piece of swordfish that could have hundreds of the amount of mercury of like a piece of tilapia that's way lower on the food chain. Like if you look at the charts, it actually can be that much of a difference and that's just mercury. So yeah, it's upsetting.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's really tough, and it just makes the higher up on the food chain these toxins multiply. So the same way smaller fish to bigger fish is the same thing when you're eating a plant to an animal that's eating the plants. So the higher up you eat, it's a cow eats thousands of pounds of contaminated grain and grass over its lifetime, concentrating the pesticides and heavy metals in its meat and its milk. Just like you said, tuna, it eats hundreds of smaller fish that are all filled with mercury, making its flesh one of the most contaminated foods.  So you can either choose to eat the small fish, which are going to have less, which unfortunately our oceans are so polluted, even the small fish have it, but at least it's not being concentrated when you eat the fish higher up. So basically plants don't store up the toxins in the same way. So eating the lower on the food chain, the fruit, vegetables, grains, legumes means fewer contaminants. And it's all because there being the pollution from the environment getting into all this stuff. So it's not the animals or the plant's fault. It's just what we have to deal with now.

Melanie Avalon

Could this be mitigated in part, since toxins are preferentially stored in fat, what if people ate very, very lean, you know, organically raised, free-range meat, like very lean, like bison and chicken breast? That might, I feel like that would eliminate a lot of the exposure to the toxins.

Matthew Lederman

Yes, even if someone eats lean, organic, free-range meat, they still accumulate more toxins than someone eating plant-based. It's organic, free-range animal, still eat plants, grains, or smaller animals that have been exposed to the environmental toxins. So that's the challenge, is if whatever they're eating has toxin, then they're going to accumulate it. And since they don't break down very easily, they build up in the animal's body over time, even if the feed is organic. So even lean meat still contains the toxins, but many toxins like dioxins and PCBs store in fat, but they also bind to muscle tissue. So even lean meat is not free from contamination.  Mercury in fish is found directly in the muscle tissue, meaning that choosing lean fish doesn't reduce exposure. Poultry containing arsenic used historically in chicken feed, organic standards don't fully protect against environmental contamination. So you just can't get away from it if you're eating things that eat other things. You're just, you're going to be exposed to it, but you can at least minimize by not eating things that eat other things that eat other things. So the little fish still eat the algae that's contaminated. So the little fish are still accumulating, but then the big fish that eat the little fish are accumulating even more, because they already have a level of concentration just from the smaller fish when they eat the algae. So does that make sense? Like the free range organic meat is better. At least it'll have fewer antibiotics and pesticide residues than factory farm meat, but it still concentrates environmental toxins and it doesn't protect against bio magnification, which is just a natural process that happens in the food chain.

Melanie Avalon

It does. I would like to look into this more and look at samplings.  I'm curious what this practically looks like, because I understand what you're saying, that it's still in there if we choose the best of the best. I would like to just actually see the numbers of what that practically looks like, just because I don't have that much.

Matthew Lederman

That's a good exercise because then you can make an informed decision about how much you want to eat I mean, we're all getting chemicals. We're all getting stuff from our mind.  That's why we want to optimize our immune system It's it's gonna be taking hits every every day from all different, you know from the air we breathe the water we drink So you just try to minimize the hits and you decide what's worth it and certain meals certain dishes certain types of food Really bring a lot of joy and pleasure to people So it's more a matter of understanding all this stuff and then making an informed decision about what works for you

Melanie Avalon

And just for the cholesterol piece, I wouldn't be concerned about dietary cholesterol and animal products raising cholesterol. I would be more for me the saturated fat, which you could get from plants as well.

Matthew Lederman

this is this is a common thing that people say and it's I've learned over the years to not spend a lot of energy trying to convince people like like I'm just like if that's the belief that they feel good about then that's great my read of the data and my read of working with patients that it's they can get saturated fat from eating whole coconut and it will not affect their cholesterol the way it will if they get eating animal products and at a certain point you can keep eating more animal products and it doesn't you know we we saturate pretty quickly as far as the amount of cholesterol that any more than that doesn't matter you know you have it's like saying if you're smoking one pack of cigarettes and then you add a second pack well you've done so much damage from the first pack that adding the second pack it might make things a little worse but you know so so if you so you could do a study that says let's take them from two packs of cigarettes down the one pack of cigarettes and there's not much a difference so therefore cigarettes have no effect on health when in fact if you went from two packs of cigarettes to no cigarettes you would see a big difference so I think you got to look at the studies and when you remove dietary cholesterol it's it's clearly a problem but at the same time there's so much so much of the dietary cholesterol comes with saturated fat too so I think they both have their issues but I really don't like in the end I don't like talking about individual macronutrients when we're trying to direct people's health because nobody sits and eats a bowl of cholesterol or eats a bowl of saturated fat and all these foods have all the different I mean bananas have saturated fat in them so it's not like you're gonna pick one type of the other it's it's to me what foods are health promoting and what or not and which foods feel good when you eat them and what foods don't and you put all that together and find a diet that works for you but I don't I've stopped over the years arguing I just want to make sure people hear that maybe there's more than one opinion out there and if they think if they will feel strongly that cholesterol dietary cholesterol doesn't make their cholesterol grow up great and you know they can do an experiment eat one diet and then try to try a couple of weeks without dietary cholesterol and check your blood cholesterol again and do it in yourself but be really you know strict about it so you get a good study and what I imagine is that people who all they do if all they do is change the dietary cholesterol which again I like is hard you can't just eat a bowl of cholesterol my guess is they're going to see a difference if they go from down to zero cholesterol for a couple of weeks just to test it out so do your own little study

Melanie Avalon

So appropriately enough, I've done almost that. But first I just wanted to comment really quickly. I am the same way. I literally have zero interest in convincing anybody of anything, like zero interest. I just wanna explore and hear different opinions and people make your own decisions. So we're on the same page there.  It's interesting for me, because so I have done, I'm really intense with what I eat. Like I pretty much eat, I eat very strict whole foods based diet and it's really just a few similar foods, no additives, meat, fruit, cucumbers, things like that. But point being is what I currently am eating and have eaten for a long time, it's very high animal protein, but it's high lean animal protein and it's tons of fruit. When I do that approach, I have very low cholesterol. So LDL will be in the 40s, total cholesterol hovers around 100. When I make a change, and the only change I make is I get rid of the fruit and I add in lots of like coconut oil or MCT oil, all my cholesterol levels like shoot up, which has been really, really interesting to see.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, oil will definitely get cholesterol, even oils that have more, if you go from an oil that, whether it's high saturated fat oil or high monounsaturated fat oil, you add a ton of oil to someone who's not having oil, their cholesterol is going to go up.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so and that's like a plant-based saturated fat, but for me it makes my cholesterol like go really high.

Matthew Lederman

All right. I'm saying is if you're going to test in yourself, test it with a whole food. If you add an oil, I don't care what kind of oil it is, it's going to cause problems.  But if you, I would say eat like whole coconut.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, which I don't like, interestingly, like I love all foods and I don't know why.

Matthew Lederman

But I would say do the study with whole foods. So do a study with its high saturated fat that's a whole food, not even coconut milk. Do the whole coconut with the fiber and all the other stuff that comes with it. And compare that to an animal product that's high in dietary cholesterol. And then compare that to a diet that's whole food plant-based without concentrated saturated fat or concentrated cholesterol. And do that experiment for a couple of weeks. Do a before and after. Everything else controlled, if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon

controlled dietary studies are, like you said, so difficult because you can't really isolate one nutrient. No, well, okay, that was fun.  So now, it's funny, we get a lot of feedback from listeners and they're always like, I'm so confused because, you know, I hear this one thing and then I hear another and I agree that it can be really confusing, but I like to see it all as benefit. Like it's more information of things that can potentially make you feel better. So do your labs and see how you feel. It sounds like, though, we do have a few overlying, you know, things we believe, which is whole foods based, removing these processed foods, you know, focusing on minimizing the environmental toxins as much as we can.

Matthew Lederman

as low on the food chain as you can, eat as much whole food as you can, which includes not having added oils and added sugars. So whole food is close to its original form as possible.  And then, I mean, I don't know where you stand, but I think if you're going to eat animal products, make them count. But again, I don't know where you are on that as far as like, how much do you really need. And then, most importantly, check in with your body. Eat these whole plant foods, add whole animal foods if that's important to you, and then check in with your body. And then, if you're going to do an experiment, really isolate the variable. So if you want to see how you feel with animal products versus, or more versus less, or oil versus no oil, make sure everything else is the same for that two-week period so you can really isolate the variable.

Melanie Avalon

So actually, going to the make it count part, we kind of do overlap indirectly. It's kind of a weavy path to get there, but you were talking about the for the anti-aging benefits, you know, not having this abundance of protein. And it's ironic because on this show, we talked about the importance of protein, or a lot of people eat like a moderate to high protein diet. But by pairing it with fasting, it's actually getting to the same end result where you're not constantly stimulating your body with with mTOR. And I think you can still get the anti-aging benefits. So you're making the protein count by having it in this concentrated eating window.  And interestingly, I hadn't thought about this yet, the implications of this, but so I do Matt, I eat a very high protein diet, it's, it's very high protein, but it's in an intermittent fasted pattern every day. So I fast every single day and I just do one meal a day in the evening. And I recently got back and like I said, I'm haunted by this longevity question with this. And I recently interviewed Dr. Matt Dawson, he is the founder of True Diagnostic, which provides an epigenetic age test and they have three of them ones in partnership with Yale ones with Harvard and ones with Duke, I think. They're all epigenetic, they all look at different markers for aging. And he told me in real time when I interviewed him that my results were some of the best he's ever seen with epigenetics showing that I'm aging slowly. So that was really validating to know that I can still have a high protein diet, but by having it in an intermittent fasting and you feel good and feel good, yeah.

Matthew Lederman

You said you feel good. You have you eat one meal a day, you said.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, but it's over a few hours in the evening and it's a lot of fruit, a lot of lean animal protein. Do you publicly share your age? Sorry, there's a funny story there. I wasn't and then CNBC wanted to do an article, like a profile piece on me and they asked if she asked me last minute, she was like, is it okay if we include your age? And I was like, I haven't put that out there publicly.  And my background's in acting, which is where you don't say your age and all this stuff. And I was like, so I'd rather not, but if you think it'll benefit the story, I understand. And then she published it and she made it the title, like the title was my age. And so I was like, okay, I guess it's out there. So that's when I was 32. So I'm, oh gosh, I don't even know how old I am, I'm 33.

Matthew Lederman

So, so you're been doing this for a while, you feel really good. You're, you're getting the calories you need. It's not like you're walking around hungry. And I think that's what's most important.  Now, we all are trying to do our best to guess what's going to be good for, you know, what do we do now that's going to help us 20 years from now, essentially, or 30 years from now. And it's really tough to know for sure. I mean, you can look at other culture, other populations, and what they ate. That doesn't mean that's what's best. We're just making our best guesses here. And a lot of these studies, they look back and they'll follow people for, for populations for a while, but they don't do this, like, randomized, well, we have this population following this and this, because it's just so hard to do it's so hard to control. So I think the most important thing is that you feel good about what you're doing, you feel good about, you know, you're not stressing out about it. And you're minimizing the stuff that we all clearly agree is crap, all of the processed Twinkies and the cookies and the added sugars. And I don't know what you feel about oil, but I think of added oil, the same as added sugar, that it's an isolated, extracted macronutrient, devoid of all of the things that are naturally in the food. So I don't know if a significant portion of your diet is coming from anything like that, and you don't have to answer, but that's what I'm telling people. I think the most important thing is how you feel. And it sounds like you feel great.

Melanie Avalon

I do. And it was really nice to see that like epigenetically in real time picture of how I'm aging.  I'm on the same page as you with oil. So I think I really don't see the reason to add these refined processed oils to things. The only exception is I can see, I mean, there's a lot of really interesting data on olive oil. So I could see if you're having like a little bit of that, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't douse the food in it. I think I don't add oil to my food.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I mean, to me, it's again, it's like if you don't need to, then don't. And if you're going to use it, there's like the good better best to me, the good is minimum, you know, you a little bit, the better would be like, maybe you're almost like putting it in a spray bottle and just in.  And to me, the best is eat, you know, eat an olive or something, that's the whole food version of it, you know, eat the avocado instead of the avocado oil. So it's not a low fat or fat free diet, it's just a low extracted fat diet.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, oftentimes people will be doing like keto or low carb and say they're not losing weight. And one of the suggestions I'll make is you don't need to add all this fat, like you don't need to be adding all this fat.  You can just eat food, like in its real form.

Matthew Lederman

Exactly. See, so we're on the same page there, I think. And there's just, if you're feeling great, that's the bottom line here.  Now, what are the challenges, though, when I was in my early 20s? I mean, you could eat anything and feel fine when you're really young. But as you start to get older, your body can't handle that anymore. So, and actually, kids will say they feel better when they clean up their diet. And, and that's, like I said, you do not need to be vegan, but feel great and be healthy. But I think getting rid of the processed foods, everybody would agree with.

Melanie Avalon

I think so. So segue, we keep talking about how there's so much more to it than just diet in your book, like I said, in your books.  But most recently, the one I read, which was Wellness to Wonderful, you go on all these other pillars of, like I said, emotional health and mental and social and all of these things. And you have this We Be Calm product, which is incredible. So what role does that play in all of this health picture?

Matthew Lederman

Actually, before we go on, I just want to make sure I realize I didn't answer your question on intermittent fasting. And I just want to say that, again, it's what helps you feel really good. I think it's very important. Fasting in general, I think, is really good for the body. And I think giving your body downtime to do its repair and restoration is really important where it's not trying to metabolize calories. And I personally, for whatever reason, just naturally gravitated a long time ago where I wouldn't eat. I never felt good eating breakfast. So I would eat my first meal, 11.30. I eat my dinner around 5.30. And that's all I eat.  So I think I'm naturally doing some long periods of fasting every day. And then getting low. I think we overall eat too many calories. So that's what I like about low calorie density diets. Whole food plant-based diets are naturally low calorie. And oil is the most calorically dense. So someone who's trying to decrease their caloric intake and fast or intermittently or it's adding oil would be the last thing I'd want to do. It's like 4,000 calories per pound. So that's just another plug for trying to get rid of processed or refined oils. But yes, I think giving yourself time is a really good thing. But there's some people that if they feel better, if they eat three meals a day or they sort of snack throughout the day. And I think that's, again, a personal experiment.  If you really have terrible cravings, or you're struggling, or your energy is different, and you feel better eating three meals or snacking during the day, I think the bottom line is trust your body, especially if you're doing that with healthy whole foods. But if you're snacking and eating Lucky Charms for breakfast and snacking all day. And well, then I think we have other things to talk about. So bottom line, yes, I think intermittent fasting is great. But I don't think someone who's feeling good and healthy and loving life needs to force themselves to intermittent fast if they're doing really well, unless they want to play around with it and see how they feel. So that makes sense. I don't think the data is so clear that we have to tell people, if you're not doing it, you are in serious trouble. But it might be something that's worth exploring.

Melanie Avalon

I agree completely makes sense and it might come as a surprise to people since I have a show called the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, but I feel the same way that I think it's a tool that works really, really well for a lot of people and it can be a major game changer and some people in the end, it's just not the thing for them. I definitely don't think everybody needs to be doing it, but I do think it can benefit a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely.

Matthew Lederman

And I say try it too, like you have nothing to lose. What's the worst thing? You skip breakfast and see what happens. Like I love that trying and that's how I do everything. I just experiment on myself. I see how I feel. What do I like? What do I not like?  And I wish more people, in fact, that could segue into this other stuff. To me, that's one of the biggest things that I have to help people with is connecting to their own bodies and using their internal value system and their internal felt experience to direct what works and what doesn't work. Instead of looking outside and having these external markers of success and health and then trying to live up to those. So it's really retuning our ability to check back in with our body and let their inner wisdom guide them.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, I love this so much. And so practically, what does that look like?  And a lot of what you do, and I'm so grateful, I love that you are, you know, creating this education, spreading this awareness, products, books, all the things for people, but you also have or and you also have a big focus on raising the next generation. So, you know, instilling this mindset and helping, you know, being a parent and helping kids. There's so many ways we could go with this, I guess I'll just start with a fairly basic question. When did you launch your we become product?

Matthew Lederman

we become, I love this tool, it was we created it to help people learn how to regulate their nervous system. And we did we count with this idea of probably four or five years ago, I've been thinking about it for a long time. But over the last five years, we started figuring out how to design it and make it work and then put it together and market it. And, and the reason this is so important is that regulating your nervous system has and which basically means turning on the parasympathetics and telling the sympathetic they can take a break. So parasympathetics are natural calming, that's how we can turn on rest and digest and reproduce functions. The sympathetic or your fight flight frees faint when there's a danger or threat. And we don't want to have those on unless you really need them on. And many people struggle to turn on their Paris or to yeah, turn on the parasympathetics and sort of put a brake on the sympathetic.  And breathing particularly slow, along the exhalation is one of the best ways to turn on the parasympathetics. And that's when we let's create a device that you can only exhale through slowly, it's not comfortable to try and blow out fast, along with an indicator that holds a ball loft, as long as you're exhaling, so you can try and keep that ball loft for 10 seconds. So then we said, there's a little bit of white noise that comes out for auditory regulation. So you have three different pathways that stimulate parasympathetics, you have the slow exhalation with the tube, you have the feedback device where you have focused attention on the ball, and that's, it's triggered similar pathways as to all the mindfulness practices. Then you have the white noise that comes out the back, the auditory regulation feedback. And you put all those together and you're activating three different parasympathetic, three different pathways to turn on the parasympathetics. And I tell people put that by your nightstand and do five breaths, five exhalations, five repetitions before bed, you can do another set of five if you want, and do it every night. And the key is doing it every night for months. And after that, you start to build this muscle memory, these neural pathways, neural networks that are created that are basically linked from your breath to turning on calm. And then at any point during the day, you can say, Oh, I'm just going to take a weeby breath. And you do that exhalation and your body now trained by this tool that's giving you feedback of what a correct breath, correct weeby breath is. Then if you take that same breath at any time during the day, you now have this strong neural pathway that can immediately turn on calm. That's been super exciting because it works really well for kids and adults. And you can, and you just have to do it before bed every night and you'll see some amazing results.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I love this so much because there's so much stress in our world and there's a lot of different ways that you can approach it. So, you know, bottom up versus top down and so things like meditation and doing, you know, mental exercises and therapy can be really helpful.  And at the same time, you can use devices like this where you can literally, like you said, instantly turn on this parasympathetic state. So well, first of all, demographics wise, so is it mostly kids using it or are you saying for like us adults and parents and such and people in general to use it as well?

Matthew Lederman

Oh, everybody, it's marketed towards children because that was the easiest demographic to target. But my kids and I use it before bed every night. And it's really amazing. My daughter, who's 11, called me from school, hysterically crying. I couldn't even understand her. And I said to her, hey, I'm hearing something's really upsetting you, and I can't understand you. Can you take a weebie breath, and then maybe we'll be able to understand you better? And she immediately, just from even asking her to take the weebie breath, she was able to sort of, I could hear it start to come down a little. And then she stopped, she did the breath, and she was like, ah, so dead. And it was like a switch. And you can't do that if you don't have the training. It's almost like trying to tell somebody to bench some weight, bench press some weight, when they need the strength versus months and months of training, and then they need the strength, and they can do it easily. The key is, even though you know how to breathe, you want to train and give your body that feedback so that you're doing it exactly the way that stimulates the parasympathetics, and that it's a practice. And when you see that tool, the weebie calm device on your nightstand, it takes 30 seconds, 40 seconds, and to do five repetitions, probably actually, if I'm being honest, probably 60 seconds. It takes a minute, but it's still worth it. And you do that every night. It's so amazing. I tell people, just do an experiment. Do it for a couple of months, and then randomly try to take weebie breaths throughout the day, and notice that felt sense in your body.

Melanie Avalon

It's so amazing that like it's a practice, but you don't have to have the cognition to make it work. Like it's going to work if you do it.  It's a physical thing that you do, and then it's going to have that effect. And then I love this fact that the brain will then anticipate and the benefits will only grow from there.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's a real, a real strong association by doing every night, you make these all these associations and this neural network just fires and it's like going down a slide and you just slide down the slide at that point because you've created this beautiful neural network.

Melanie Avalon

It's kind of like how even with things like dopamine, we know that when you have an addiction or a habit or something that you do all the time, you actually release those feel good feelings before you even do it. Like once you get into the habit of doing it, it's the thought of it that actually, you know, releases these feel good compounds.  So it sounds like the we become can become not that it's like an addiction, but it can become entrained where it immediately will signify to your body these the state to go into.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, it's a really beautiful thing to watch.

Melanie Avalon

so amazing. And I love that it's so like portable and affordable.  Literally, it's like the perfect gift to give to everybody. My mom before, like I said, I gave one to her, because before she'd been using a straw, breathing through a straw. And this makes it so much easier to, like you said, it's multiple thing, it's three different things, not just the breathing. And then you like know what to do, you're not having to like come up with the paradigm that you're fitting into it actually with the thing, like it makes it like easy to follow like step.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, yeah, when you see the ball and you know you're getting the ball off, that's as hard as you have to blow. And then you exhale until you don't have to anymore, at least the 10 seconds.  And it gives you this, it's this form, it's a container around the breath that otherwise it's hard to know exactly if you're doing it correctly, especially for kids, but even for adults. So by using this device, it sort of holds the breath the way you need to do it so that you know you're doing it correctly. And then you just do it every night, 60 seconds. If you want to do another set, it's two minutes. It's not a big investment to be able to have calming at your fingertips.

Melanie Avalon

That's incredible. Can you, this is random.  Can you use it for things like cravings or people are experiencing like any sort of feeling that they're experiencing where they want to come back to a state of presence? Like what are other things people could use it for?

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, you can use it any time your body is dysregulated and you want some regulation. Some people with cravings, they are feeling stressed, they are feeling their nervous system is mobilized and chewing and swallowing is one way to trigger the vagus nerve that turns on the parasympathetics. So it makes sense that people like chewing, swallowing, sucking to calm themselves.  That's how kids do it. They suck on and pacifiers. So it's not wrong, but it gets in the way of your health when you use food and swallowing and sucking, especially when you're stressed out, you tend to want high calorie density foods. So it's going to get in the way of your health if that's your go-to calming mechanism. So instead, try and calm other ways. And then on top of that, we ask people to connect to what's going on inside. What's going on with their feelings and needs now shifts into nonviolent communication. But what's going on with their feelings and needs that's causing them to mobilize in the first place? And is there something a request we can make of ourselves or other people that can better meet our needs so that we regulate, again, getting out of that fight or flight mode? So it all starts to come together.

Melanie Avalon

That's a whole nother topic that I love that you talk about, which was the nonviolent communication. I was so fascinated by it, reading your book and listening to your podcast, this idea of needs and wants and requests, and there's so much there.  It's a whole nother world. But you talk about it a lot on your podcast, the We Be Parents podcast, so people can check that out in your books.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, the podcast is, the contest is fun because we, it's all focused on bringing connection and that sense of safety, which is really important for kids, their physiology, helping to regulate kids and connect with them. We call it collaborative non-permissive parenting that we teach.  And it's all, that's what the podcast is all about, how to bring that into the household. And it's not that, I mean, I'm getting it, getting it right, you know, quote unquote, right, about 50% of the time. And then I know how to clean up the messes that I make. So it's, I mean, it's tough being parents and it's, it's just about doing the best you can and trying to bring these skills into the household, not only for your own wellbeing, but it really contributes to the kids and what the kids learn and bring into their adulthood.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was fascinated by this whole approach and there's this idea where you're not forcing kids to do things that they quote, don't want to do, which is a really, at surface level, it's like, oh, well, then kids aren't going to do anything. But once you get a bigger understanding that, you know, everything is driven by wants and needs and what's being met and you can talk to your kids and come to a place with the goal in mind, usually where you can accomplish said goal that is needed by the by everybody.  Once you talk through what people actually want and need, and I'm using a lot of words, but it's really, really interesting. And it was a paradigm shift for me for at least what I see of parenting and how parenting is typically done.

Matthew Lederman

Yeah, I think that's very well said and it's you have to shift your paradigm. If you believe that kids are inherently bad and you need to force them and mold them to be good, this isn't going to make sense.  But if you believe, as I do, that kids naturally want to contribute to the well-being of others just like adults do, but sometimes they're not connected to that or their own needs. There's other needs of theirs that are preventing them from doing that. So when a kid says no, instead of trying to force them to do what you want anyway, try and care about what needs of theirs are preventing them from saying yes. And that's the beginning of the connection. And then you can collaborate and say, hey, how can we care about that need of yours that's making you want to say no, while also caring about my need, which is behind me asking you to do this thing that you're saying no to. Can we both care about all that together?

Melanie Avalon

I love it so much. It's really definitely a paradigm shift and it's really powerful.

Matthew Lederman

It is. It is. And for some people, they really like the authoritarian parenting style. And like I said, I'm not here to tell everybody what's right or wrong.  This is just making life a lot more wonderful for us and a lot of the people we work with. So that's why we do it.

Melanie Avalon

Listeners, I cannot recommend enough getting a Webby device for you, for the people in your life, for your kids. Honestly, this is another little hack I do in my life. I like to stock up on Christmas presents throughout the year for people. So then come Christmas time, I already have all my shopping done. Literally, it is such a game changer. So just stock up on these and you can give them as Christmas presents to so many people.  So Matt and the team are so kind. They have a discount for you guys, you can get 25% off. Just go to ifpodcast.com slash Webby, that's W-E-B-E. So ifpodcast.com slash Webby, W-E-B-E. And when you go there, it will bring you to the main page. There's a pop up to get on the email list and that will get you a 25% discount on the product. There's also a little button in the corner that says save 25%. So you can click that as well. So definitely check that out. That will be at ifpodcast.com slash Webby, W-E-B-E. All right. Well, thank you, Matt. I really, really enjoyed that conversation. It was exciting. It was nice because I think in our two prior episodes on the other show, we did more focus on stuff that we got into at the end. So if people were interested in that, definitely check out those other episodes. I really enjoyed talking about the diet stuff with you. That was super fun. And I really appreciate your perspective. The central tenets that you think are important, I really love that you understand that different things work for different people. And I think this conversation will be really valuable for people and exposing them to different paradigms and ideas and helping them really find what works best for them. So thank you for what you're doing.

Matthew Lederman

I appreciate it and I really hope people listening because way back when I remember listening to different shows and I would think that person doesn't agree, I don't, yeah, I would just stop listening. And I think it's really helpful to listen to everything and then just pick what works for you and make that your program versus, you know, you have to agree with somebody 100% or, you know, if they don't agree, you know, throw them away.  And maybe there's, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe there's some things you like and other things you don't like. So I really invite the audience and in general, I invite my audiences when I'm talking to just pick what works for you. You know, here's my opinion, you know, Melanie, you have your opinion, but you've ultimately figured out what works for you and that's why you have this opinion. But it's different than probably all the experts that you've talked to. There's some differences in what you do compared to each of those experts. And I think that's the way to be successful.

Melanie Avalon

I agree so much. I actually actively, one of the podcasts I listen to is Rich Roll, he's very vegan. And it's because I actively want to make sure I listen to perspectives that are very different from what I actually eat or overlap, like we talked about as well. Yeah, find what works for you, leave what doesn't work for you.  Yeah, this has been amazing. So again, listeners, go to ifodcast.com slash weebie and click that little button in the bottom right hand corner to get 25% off. And yeah, this has been super, super awesome. So thanks, Matt, we'll have to have you on again in the future. There's just so much more we could talk about. So thank you for everything that you're doing. Oh, and oh, by the way, can you give links for people? So how can people follow you? Listen to your podcast, all the things

Matthew Lederman

Yes. So people can find us. Our website is connectiondocs.com.  And the calming device and the breathing device is through webeecom.com with a K. W-E-B-E, Caleb.com. And our podcast is webeeparents.com.  And then our book Wellness to Wonderful is on Amazon. And you can follow webeecom.com on Instagram and Facebook as well.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome.  So we will put all of that in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for the conversation and everything that you're doing. And yeah, we'll have to talk again in the future. This was really great.

Matthew Lederman

That's great. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon

Thanks, Matt. Bye.  Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient doctor relationship is formed.  If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.  See you next week. you

Mar 24

Episode 414 – TruDiagnostic, Stubborn Weight Loss, Fasting Releasing Toxins, Epigenetic Testing & Biological Age, Animal Vs Plant Protein, Toxins In Animal Fat, Protein & Aging, and More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 414 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC


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The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan


STUDIES

Adipose Tissue as a Site of Toxin Accumulation


Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.


TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)


Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 414 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.  I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iofpodcast.com or by going to iofpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 414 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today? And also, how do you feel about palindromes?

Barry Conrad

Hey, everyone. How's it going? I feel great today. And, Melanie, I don't know how I feel about that. I was not expecting you to even ask me that. How do you feel about it?

Melanie Avalon

414 is a palindrome. 414, like palindromes are where there's like mom, like M-O-M, like where it can be read.

Barry Conrad

Yes. Okay. Yeah. I get you. I get you. I feel, I feel pretty good about that. I feel excited, frisky, awesome, stoked.

Melanie Avalon

Fairy contract feels frisky about palindromes.

Barry Conrad

That's not a sound bite that we need to use, but I feel good. I think it's a good, it's a good number. I like the situation.

Melanie Avalon

I have a fun fact about palindromes. My grandfather, he was obsessed with palindromes to the extent that he wrote a book called Refer, which is a palindrome.  And all this book is very, this book is just a list of every palindrome. Are you serious? Yeah, it's just lists of words and numbers.

Barry Conrad

I didn't even know or I'm not sure if I even knew that you had another author in your family.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think he self published it. I don't know. It's on my shelf. He was a character. Wait, should I grab the book? Hold on. Wait, let me go grab. Let me go grab it. Hold on.

Barry Conrad

This is a really interesting. I had no idea, listeners. So here we go.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so it's called refer and then the subtitle is what's not really, I guess it's a subtitle. The reference for writing palindromes because, you know, we need that.  And then it's just lists. Okay, pick a page number.

Barry Conrad

24.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so we're in the S's. So the top one on top is actually, I don't know how this works. Oh, these aren't really palindromes on this page.  These are words that spell one word one way and one word the other.

Barry Conrad

Okay, give me an example. So what?

Melanie Avalon

Well, the top one, I don't know if sprat is a word, sprat and then tarps. Ah, I get what you mean.  Like, or like, okay. The one next to it is straw and warts, stressed and desserts, et cetera. Those aren't palindromes though. Pick another number.

Barry Conrad

16

Melanie Avalon

That's still in the same section pick a number like

Barry Conrad

Like higher.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah.

Barry Conrad

Okay.

Melanie Avalon

48. 48 is talking about palindromes. It says it is obvious that there are infinitely many numerical palindromes.  Some palindromes are prime numbers, like 101, some are not prime, like 202, and then it just keeps going on.

Barry Conrad

You know what I'm gonna keep that in my mind now every time I see one I'm like It's a pelodrome. How do you feel about that and people be like, huh?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And then you can have this whole conversation with them as well. You can refer them to my grandfather's book refer.

Barry Conrad

That's hilarious. I might have to do that. Yes. Is this going to be in the show notes or what? Are you going to put this for people to, can people find it?

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if it's on Amazon. Let me find out. I hope so. I think I bought it on Amazon.

Barry Conrad

It's pretty cool that he's got this book.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, here it is. You can buy it on Amazon. That's so cute.

Barry Conrad

That is awesome.

Melanie Avalon

I will put a link to it in the show notes. I will put a link to that and to my new microphone, which is rainbows.

Barry Conrad

When, listen, is when I first heard that Melanie had this mic, I thought like, what is it shooting rainbows out of the mic? Is it a rainbow colored mic?  Yeah. So can you tell us what it means? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

Well, have you seen any of my clips on social media where I normally I have like a red mic, it's like very red. So this is the same brand HyperX, but it lights up and it's lighting up with a rainbow that is changing, like changing colors, like rainbowy.

Barry Conrad

How does it make you feel?

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it feels wonderful, honestly, feels like World of Color. It's, I just can't decide if it's distracting or not.  But it, okay, you know, when things like very calmly, like, like just oscillate and vibe, like it feels calming, it's that. But what color would you have Barry if you had, because you can program it to be any color. So what color would you have?

Barry Conrad

I would have to go with blue because blue is my favorite color and I feel super chill when I'm when I have blue around me just relaxed calm yeah serene so blues my color all the way.

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's interesting because, you know, blue is energy. What do you mean, energy? It's the wavelength of energy. So like the reason it's like the most high energy wavelength. That's why we have like blue light blocking glasses.  That's why there are no blue fruits or plants. There are, did you know that? There are no plants that are actually blue. They're actually shades of purple if you think they're blue. Because blue, the plant absorbs all the blue because it's the energy. So it doesn't reflect it back.

Barry Conrad

I had no idea about this at all because what about flowers or like blue flowers or is that more of a purple? Is that what you're saying?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I don't. Okay. When I was reading about this, it was talking about fruits. I don't know about flowers.

Barry Conrad

Oh, actually, actually, what about blueberries?

Melanie Avalon

They're actually not like completely blue. They have some, they're actually technically, I think a shade of purple. Isn't that crazy?  Yeah, there's no like a hundred. Basically there's not a fruit that just reflects back only blue because it wouldn't have energy.

Barry Conrad

It's amazing idea while mind blown, not pun intended with the other podcasts that we go, but it's true.

Melanie Avalon

So, so now that I've provided completely useless information, how are things in your life?

Barry Conrad

It's not useless. I'm very, I feel very educated right now after living by paladromes and- Paladromes and blue. Blue energy. Things are great. You know what, Melanie? I have something to share with you that is- goodness, excite you so much. And me.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.

Barry Conrad

So, you know how you've asked me this before, like, how did you when did you start fasting and what brought you to it? Like, how did you find it? Did you remember? I always was like online, online, which is true, but I didn't know the origin story until a couple of weeks ago.  My second brother came over for some trinkets. We had some foods and wine and and I was venting to him. I said, you know, I'm so frustrated because I can't remember the exact moment. He goes, ah, well, I do. Like, remember, you said.

Melanie Avalon

Second brother to the rescue.

Barry Conrad

It was like Hugh Jackman, you know, you read an article when he was training for Wolverine and he said that he did intermittent fasting and you kept going on about it like, I'm going to try this thing Hugh Jackman does, 16A, intermittent fasting. That's the moment I was like, bingo.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Let's take a moment for Hugh Jackman right now. That's amazing.

Barry Conrad

I was so excited i was like finally someone had the missing puzzle piece so i finally can answer that now you jackman.

Melanie Avalon

So when he said that, did you like really remember the moment or was it, you had to reconstruct the memory based on like what he was telling you.

Barry Conrad

No i remember the moment when he said that i was like what do you mean i forgot this moment this is that's exactly but he was so chill is like he was like yeah of course it's when you remember the huge action. I dropped the glass that i was holding into the sink is like that's the moment we go.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. I feel like I vaguely remember that, not you and that, but like, I remember Hugh Jackman talking about intermittent fasting. Was it during like the X-Men time?

Barry Conrad

It was during the x-men time but also when you started preparing for the the solo films you know wolverine.

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. I wonder if he still does it. We should

Barry Conrad

We should ask him, Hugh Jackman, if you ever hear this, do you still do intermittent fasting? Did you do it for the Deadpool Wolverine movie or you kind of pass that now? Let us know.

Melanie Avalon

We would like to know, maybe, wait, have you ever met him?

Barry Conrad

He's one of my, I look up to that guy. I've never met him yet. I met his wife, his ex-wife, but not him. Not yet, yet, keyword.

Melanie Avalon

I'm putting it out there, you're doing a project with him. I'm just putting it out there, manifest that. You guys could do a musical together, a stage musical.

Barry Conrad

acts that actually could happen too because I think he's in New York right now doing a show.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like he probably feel like he's always doing something. He's very inspiring

Barry Conrad

Very inspiring. I love how he pivots between movie, like action movie to musical to Yeah, it's it's super inspiring as an actor for sure. Wow. But there you go, Melanie. That's it.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. Okay.

Barry Conrad

What about you? What's happening in your-

Melanie Avalon

world. I'm good. Okay, friends, actually exciting announcement. So if things are on track, which hopefully they will be this Friday, March 28, I should be launching my AvalonX EMF blocking product line with the EMF free headphones air tubes. That's so exciting. So hopefully, FutureUs is having this moment right now and hopefully it's launching. So go to AvalonXEMF.us on Friday. Actually, go there now because you can get on the email list to get updates for the products and the launch special and all the things.  But basically, EMFs are classified by the IARC as a group to be carcinogen. And they are not good. They are linked to a lot of health conditions. And when you're putting AirPods in your head, did I say AirPods earlier? I meant air tubes. Oh, dear. When you put AirPods like Bluetooth ones in your head, you're literally just putting all that EMF signal right next to your brain, which is no bueno. So these are headphones that are free of EMF. They actually conduct and convert the sound into analog. So there's nothing digital about how the sound is transmitted to you. Yeah, they're going to come in rose gold and black. Which color would you get, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I would give black for sure.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, no, I was like, are you gonna do like a curve ball? No rose gold for you?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I don't have anything of rose gold yet, but you know, I'm open to it if I can yeah, maybe I should change

Melanie Avalon

Maybe that's your new color palette.

Barry Conrad

along with some paludromes and some, some blue energy.

Melanie Avalon

calendrobes and blue. So yeah. So again, to listeners, Avalon XEMF.us.

Barry Conrad

Super exciting!

Melanie Avalon

I know. Shall we jump into fasting stuff? Let's do it.  So I'm the one who brought a study today to talk about. I actually prepped this berry because you weren't there. But next week, episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman. He is a really awesome human being.  So did you ever watch the Forks Over Knives documentary?

Barry Conrad

I don't think I have seen that. No, tell me about it.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, it's probably like it may be one of the most well-known vegan documentaries. It's very like plant. It's all about like Whole Foods plant-based diet.  So he was in that. He co-authored the New York Times bestselling book, The Forks Over Knives Plan or something. It's the book that's about the plan for it. And he actually worked at Whole Foods, wait, they have Whole Foods in Australia, right?

Barry Conrad

We actually don't we have a we haven't stopped we don't we don't that's another moment we have a harris farm which is kind of like if you look at paris farm it's kind of like whole foods the same kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon

Wait a minute. How have we known each other for all these years and I didn't know they don't have whole foods in Australia?

Barry Conrad

They don't? We don't have it here. I know.

Melanie Avalon

I know. But you've been to Whole Foods, right? Like in the US? Yep. And are you like, wow, we need this in Australia.

Barry Conrad

We do need it. I mean, Harris Farms is similar, but not Whole Foods.

Melanie Avalon

It's a chain, Harris Farms. Maybe Whole Foods will acquire it, take over.  Okay, I'm just trying to get over how sad I am that you don't have Whole Foods, but Harris Farms is probably, Harris Farm or farms? Are there one farm, two farms?

Barry Conrad

I think it's just like, that's just like the name like the, on the facade, like, you know, the signage Harris farm. It's called Harris farm markets. That's what it's called. Harris farm markets.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so one farm, multiple markets, Harris Farm markets. Okay. I think Whole Foods is technically Whole Foods market. I don't know.  In any case, Dr. Letterman was the for like, a long time, like eight years or something, he was the vice president of medical medical affairs or some sort of he was some sort of medical director. And he basically was in charge of their medical program that they use for their employees that helped with like their health and their wellness and helped reduce insurance costs, because it was all about supporting like health and wellness and a more holistic approach. So he spearheaded that at Whole Foods for a long time. He co authored the Whole Foods diet book with john Mackey, who is the the co founder and former CEO of Whole Foods. And he is the creator of a brand called we be calm, which they make this breathing device for it's where they market it to kids, but it's for adults as well. And it's it kind of gamifies breathing, like slow breathing, where you like breathe into this tube and watch a little air like a little ball rise. And it's to help like instantly calm you down.  It's really, really cool. So I'll give listeners a code for that. If they go to if podcast.com slash we be w e be, you can get 25% off go to that link. And then there's a button in the bottom right corner to get 25% off. But that was a lengthy introduction. So the reason I want to talk about it today, and what led to the study that I'm going to talk about is be ready friends, because we talk a lot on this show about the importance of protein and high protein diet and you know, the benefits of animal protein. So Dr. Letterman, he is very much in the plant based world and the vegan world. So we had a very interesting conversation that I think people will find helpful because he brought a different perspective. He thinks most people don't need to worry about protein, he thinks we should, you know, minimize animal protein. So I do not agree with a lot of what he said.  But I think it's really helpful to expose yourself to all different viewpoints. Because that keeps you from, you know, being in a silo and being biased and cherry picking. So I'm excited to hear what listeners think about next week's episode, you'll have to listen and let me know what you think too. Yeah, how do you feel about different opinions? And I feel about different opinions like that.

Barry Conrad

I think that I'm on the same page with it being really really helpful and interesting to hear different opinions and also as soon as you said that about the we don't need like he doesn't think we need to focus on protein I had to literally listeners sit back in my chair away from the mike before it. Because I don't agree with that but yeah all four opinions though.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I don't either. And I did push back on it. And so we debated about it back and forth. One of the arguments he made, but this was about, and this brings me to today's study, this is not about protein per se, but he was saying that these toxic compounds like carcinogens and pollutants in the environment become massively more concentrated in animal products compared to plants. Because as the animal eats, everything concentrates and goes up the food chain. So he was saying eating an animal-based diet exposes you to way more toxins than a plant-based diet.  And I have a lot of thoughts about that. One, I think there's a big difference between an organic animal-based diet compared to a conventional plant-based diet. You have to take that into account. He pushed back and said there wasn't much of a difference between organic versus conventional toxins in animal products. And I actually, I researched that and looks like that's an accurate statement. It looks like there's not a huge difference between them because these compounds are so pervasive in the environment. I just think the benefits of animal-based products, especially protein and the nutrients that you can get, and I talk about this in next week's episode. So check it out for instance, like a major teaser for next week. I just think it's so valuable for so many people. The nutrients are more easily assimilated. There's a lot of nutrients that can be hard for people to convert into the correct form. So things like ALA versus DHA and EPA, the omega-3s, what else? Well, vitamin B12 is really only in something like spirulina, shout out, if you want to have that on a vegan diet. There's just a lot of nutrients like choline and creatine and such, which are much more concentrated in animal products. But in any case, I asked him if maybe some of this could be avoided by eating lean animal protein rather than fatty animal protein because toxins tend to accumulate in fat. He kind of gave me that, but he was still kind of not about it. So I went and researched this concept and I found a really, really interesting study about fat accumulation and toxins and what happens when you fast. So that's what I'm going to talk about. But before I move into that, I want to say I really adore Dr. Matthew Letterman. He was amazing and it was such a respectful conversation. And at the end, he was so overwhelmingly abundantly clear that he feels people should find what works for them personally. And that's how I feel as well. So I just want to say that. Yeah. Should I, do you have any thoughts or should I bring up the study?

Barry Conrad

Let's get into the study i'm curious to hear this.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. So I found this study because I was trying to find a study talking about if you eat lean meat compared to fatty meat, would that reduce your toxin exposure? And I couldn't find a study looking just at that, but then I found a study that mentioned it in passing and it was in a broader study that was really, really interesting. So that's what I'm going to talk about.  But it is true that eating lean meat compared to fatty meat can really help reduce your exposure to most of those toxins because they do accumulate in fat. The exception would be something like mercury, like heavy metals and fish. Those actually accumulate in the protein, not the fat. So you just can't win. You just can't win. That's why I think it's so important to eat fish that's very low on the food chain. But the study is called adipose tissue as a site of toxin accumulation. It was published, I'll give you the link as well, September 2018 in comprehensive physiology.  And some of the takeaways from this study was it was talking about these, they're called POPs. They're persistent organic pollutants. And basically, they're all these different compounds that are so saturated in our environment that they persist. So even though a lot of them have been banned or are not being actively used, they are still there and they tend to accumulate and they are not good for our health. So what's interesting about them is our body, there's a good side and a bad side to this. So in order to protect us from these compounds, because they are so toxic, our body stores them in fat so that they won't hurt us. And while they're in our fat stores, they are inert. So they can't hurt us, although there's a little bit of a caveat I want to talk about, but they can't directly hurt us while they're in the fat.  But then the problem happens is when you try to lose weight by weight loss and fasting in particular, it talks about that in the study, that we mobilize these toxins into our bodies, and they can actually hurt us. So it talks about how fast weight loss can be a problem for some people because they released so many of these compounds. And so these compounds are things you might have heard of like BPA or phthalates. There was actually a conference in 2001 at the Stockholm convention and they came up with their Dirty Dozen list, which was 12 key ones. And they have very long names, but some of the other ones you might have heard of are like dioxins, DDT, PCBs, all of these things. What's really interesting is not only does our body store them in fat, and we release them when we lose weight, they actually... One of the theses of this paper was that they contribute to obesity and insulin resistance and diabetes and all the things. And that's because they actually can encourage insulin resistance. I've talked before about things called obesogens, and that's what these are. They're literally these compounds that can make you store and gain weight. And then within the fat cells, they actually make the fat cells more inflammatory and they actually can make the fat more likely... Make it more resistant to weight loss and make it more likely to gain weight from there.

Melanie Avalon

It just goes to speak... I know I talk a lot about the importance of things like safe skincare and makeup and like what you put in your body and the role of toxins. And that's because these compounds literally can affect your metabolic health. They can encourage you to gain weight and make it hard to lose weight. So people often are struggling with weight loss and things and these compounds may be playing a really large role in it.  It's not just the food, even though they started this with the food saying that animal products can be higher in these compounds, but we're exposed to them in all different ways. So yeah, do you have thoughts? It's kind of a story, but...

Barry Conrad

It's not a dairy donor. For me, I just think that... Well, actually, I had a question when you first started, which was you said in lean protein.  So does that mean, lean animal protein, does it still count if you cut the fat off? For example, like a steak, if you cut the fat off and then prepare it, cook it, grill it, or does it have to come in its actual form just leaner, less fatty? Like how does...

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, that's a really great question. So there's a few different things here. So when it comes to fat and meat, there's intramuscular and extra muscular fat. So when you're talking about like cutting off the fat, so that's extra muscular fat that you can cut off, which is great because you cut it off and you're removing those toxic compounds in that fat.  But then there's what you're talking about, which is just the actual animal itself needs to be leaner. And that is something else because you can't cut out the fat if the fat is inside of the actual meat. You can cook it out by cooking it more and the fat drains out, but you're not going to remove all of it. So this is actually really interesting where grass-fed versus conventional meat comes into play because you'll notice if you have grass-fed beef, for example, or bison, that it's way leaner than conventional beef and steak. And that's because those animals, because of their lifestyle, they're just leaner and they're less insulin resistant, less obesogenic from how they're raised. So they're not storing as much fat inside of their actual muscle. So you're going to, to the point of the toxins, getting grass-fed meat should reduce your exposure to some of that fat. Or if you look at, for example, like conventional farm-raised salmon versus wild-caught salmon, it's so much fattier, the farm salmon. So, yeah. It's a good question.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, going back to what you said about animal protein versus plant protein, though, I just think it seems like such a clear slam dunk to me, from my opinion, and I could be wrong. But from what I know, we know that, you know, animal proteins, it's a complete protein.  It's not, you know, whereas, you know, like plant proteins, like they have fiber and antioxidants. But, I mean, animal proteins, better absorption, it's higher in leucine, more nutrient dense. So, for muscle and strength, you'd think, isn't it clear that animal protein is sort of king? What do you think?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I have so many thoughts. I really do agree. It is true that you can get the full amino acid profile by combining different plants. I just think if it comes to supporting muscle in your body, the amino acid profile of animal products is just much more ideal for that.  It's much more easily assimilated. It's everything that you just said. I think people can struggle to get enough protein on plant-based diets. I understand it works for some people, but I think it can be hard. An argument he was making, and I'm excited to tell you about this. An argument he was making was that some of these amino acids are pro-aging because they really stimulate mTOR and IGF-1, which are growth-promoting signals which relates to aging and an excess of which may correlate to cancer. These are things like leucine in particular, methionine. I agree with that, but I think there's some magic to having intermittent fasting because that's going to reduce those growth signals and then have the growth-promoting protein in your eating window. I feel like you get best of both worlds. I've wondered this for a long time. I've also been haunted by this for a long time because I eat a super high protein diet. I feel like Barry, you're probably one of the only people I know who might eat. I don't know. I feel like I eat more than you, protein-wise.

Barry Conrad

We'll have to have a protein off.

Melanie Avalon

a protein off, but you eat a lot too, like, yeah.

Barry Conrad

A lot of animal protein to clarify.

Melanie Avalon

I've been hoping that the fasting does provide ample mitigation of that growth time when you're having that high protein diet for an anti-aging effect.  And I interviewed... Did I tell you this yet? How I interviewed Matt Dawson? Did I tell you this?

Barry Conrad

refresh my memory, maybe you did.

Melanie Avalon

So he let me see what episode it was. So he was episode 412.  He is the founder or co founder of wild health.com, which they provide this, like this full lab work, genetic analysis platform where they really test what you need to be testing. Then you work with their providers to figure out what you need to do with your diet and lifestyle. And they run your, they sequence your DNA and you get this massive report. That's like 50 pages talking about your genes and how they affect your diet, your sleep, your lifestyle. It is fascinating. I absolutely love it. I want to do that. Yeah. It was, oh, I can, yeah. Let me talk to him and see if we can get you set up on it. So I can't recommend it enough. And I was excited because it really did match what I said. So like, or what I experienced as far as like what it was saying, like it was saying that I'm, um, you know, like a night owl and oh, that like when it comes to neurotransmitters that I'm very, I break down dopamine slowly. So I'm very like dopamine driven, which is kind of how I feel. I'm always like high dopamine. And then they helped identify that I knew I had methylation issues, but they put, they had me go on like a methyl folate supplement to help with my homocysteine. So that was exciting.  So I definitely recommend it. People can go to wild health.com slash Melanie Avalon and use the code Melanie Avalon. That will get you 20% off, but he's also the like founder or CEO. He's the head honcho at another company called true diagnostic.

Barry Conrad

I feel like maybe you did tell me about him because I remember some of this, yeah. That sounds awesome, though, what you just said about, you know, getting that 50 pages worth of data.  That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

It's so, so cool. I really love it.  And it helps you, you know, kind of figure out what diet might work for you. But the long windy road is, he's also at this company called True Diagnostic, and they provide, this is so exciting, three epigenetic age tests for your biological age, which for listeners, that's basically what is your age on the inside. So you have your chronological age, and then you have your biological age. He looked at my results. So there's three tests on it. Let me see what they're called. So there's three tests. One is the it's called the Omic age, or Omic M age, and it was developed with Harvard. Then there's the Dunedin pace, which was made with Duke and Columbia, and then the symphony age from Yale. So I got my results back. And he told me, he told me my results were some of the best he's ever seen for epigenetic aging. And this is the guy who runs the company.

Barry Conrad

That's massive. What did he say? So what can you share some of like the comparison?

Melanie Avalon

I'll share with my results, but the reason it was really exciting was I've been haunted by this idea like, is eating this really high protein diet aging me faster, you know, or is it a problem? But according to this results, I'm doing, I'm aging really slowly.  So the Omik age, that's the one with, who did I say that was with, with Harvard. So at the time I took the test, I was 33.53. The result, I was 10.64 years younger by that, which was, so I was 22.89. And then the, the dune in pace of aging test, which he said, he said this one is really telling for how are you actually aging in the moment. Like the other one is kind of like, what is, the other one's like, what is your age, your biological age now? But this one actually looks at like, how are you aging, like the rate of aging. And I was 0.67. So basically for every year of aging, I'm aging at a rate of 0.67. And that's the one he said he was like really impressed with. And then the symphony.

Barry Conrad

Almost half, you know, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, almost. And then the symphony age, that actually looks at 11 distinct organ systems. And it tells you, in each organ system, are you aging slower or faster? In nine of them, I was aging slower.  So I was aging slower in systems, heart, inflammation, metabolic, brain, musculoskeletal, kidneys, liver, lungs, and blood. And then I was aging slightly faster in immune and hormones. But he did say that a lot of these can fluctuate from day to day. So point being is, I'm sorry, this is so long. I feel like I've been talking for the entire episode.

Barry Conrad

No, this is super interesting.

Melanie Avalon

So listeners will have a code for you. So if you go to Melanie Avalon.com slash true diagnostic, and that's spelled TRU for true, so Melanie Avalon.com slash true diagnostic. T R U D I A G N O S T I C. You can get 10% off with the code Melanie Avalon.  But yeah, the point is I've been, I think what this really says, and I realize it's an N of one, like I am, it's only me as an example, but it does to me clearly show that it is possible to eat exuberant amounts of protein and not be aging faster from it, given the overall context. So, you know, the intermittent fasting pattern, because it can't, it, I mean, it literally does mean that because it does mean that at the very least eating high, high protein will not always 100% of the time make you age faster because I'm literally eating a ton and I'm aging slower. And I think that's due to the fasting. I mean, it has to be, because if not, I should be.

Barry Conrad

changing faster. That's amazing, actually. I want to do that as well. Can we do that in Australia? Or does that have to be in America for that?

Melanie Avalon

Probably not, I can find out.

Barry Conrad

I'll wait till I'm there.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'll find out it might be and same with the wild health might be a little bit difficult because It's like they have to order blood tests and stuff for you. This one though was a saliva test.  So maybe I'll have to find out you would love it

Barry Conrad

Yeah, in any case, Mel, like you're right, what you're saying, it backs up what we both really believe about animal protein and eating high protein diet, you know, and it's amazing to hear those results. It's science. So how can you... Yeah, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

It was so exciting because it's the information I've been needing for a long time to feel, I don't know, to feel not quite as worried about my high protein diet. I really think the fasting is doing something magical.  And something else I want to say, all these studies on high protein diets and aging, especially if they're causation correlation, if it's completely just epidemiological data, like they're looking at people on high protein diets, most people on high protein diets are eating a lot of food in general. Like it's the rare subset. It's like bodybuilders and people who are eating like a high protein, but like a low calorie diet. Like that's pretty rare. So it's hard to know how much of it is the protein and how much of it is just the diet in general, like the calorie load of the diet in general and like eating constantly.

Barry Conrad

It's my brain's buzzing. I'm so excited to hear this news because it's basically just confirmation.  Also, did you, did you really, were you really feeling like that? Like feeling like, oh, is this good that I'm eating this much protein?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, 100%. I asked this question.  If you go through my biohacking one, my biohacking podcast, I ask everybody who I think might have information about this, I ask them their thoughts on the trade-off between high protein diets and longevity. So I'm pretty sure I asked David Sinclair and Valter Longo and even people on the high protein side of things like Gabrielle Lyon. Yeah, I'm haunted by this question.

Barry Conrad

What do they all say like on average like all those guests like to they all support the high protein or do they cut is it more abstract like what they say about it.

Melanie Avalon

It pretty much depends what camp they're in. So I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger end of last year, and he's one of the biggest vegan people out there. And he made the case that he thinks protein is the most aging thing, specifically the amino acid methionine. According to him, the most aging thing you can do is eat a high methionine diet. So yeah, he was team low protein.  Walter Longo, who is also team low protein, I asked him this question. I remember I actually asked him. So he's the one who created the fasting mimicking diet. He's at the University of Southern California. We've had him on this show, and I've had him on my other show once or twice. I'm actually trying to book him again for his new book, which is on cancer. I asked him specifically. I was like, do you think maybe if I'm eating a high protein diet, but in a one meal a day window every day, and then fasting all day, is that mitigating the effects? And he said it's possible, but we just don't know. Basically, why risk it? What's his answer? But then people like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon will make the case that supporting muscle is of most importance for longevity. So you get all different answers.  But yes, to answer your question, I am very haunted by this question.

Barry Conrad

Well, hopefully you less wanted after getting those results.

Melanie Avalon

I am. I felt intuitively like I don't feel like I'm aging from it.  It feels very supportive of my metabolic health. And then the fasting every day just intuitively feels good. Like I don't feel like I'm aging faster.

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree with you 100% and same with you.

Melanie Avalon

You look amazing. You look like a baby.

Barry Conrad

you look amazing too. Hopefully a big baby not like an actual

Melanie Avalon

A big baby, no, not an actual baby. It's like, what's that movie, Tuck Everlasting? Like, don't age.

Barry Conrad

Aye, yeah, yeah

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I don't know if you ever saw that I saw that like forever

Barry Conrad

I can't even tell, like, you're one of those people where looking at you, you just can't tell your age, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Like you can't really pinpoint it

Barry Conrad

Like he should be in Twilight.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, you too. Let's make a movie. Let's cast ourselves.

Barry Conrad

I like how there was a ding when you said that in the background.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, my goodness. So that was a lot.

Barry Conrad

No, it was a lot in a good way.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, should we answer a listener question? Any other thoughts?

Barry Conrad

No, I'm very, very happy to hear what you just shared because I'm so big on protein too, so it's encouraging. Let's get into some questions.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Okay. All right. So we have a question from Nydia, and this actually relates a little bit to some of the things we talked about, but this was on Facebook. And friends, you can join our Facebook group, IF Biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods, plus life, and ask questions in there for us, all the things. So Nydia says, why after almost four years, I can't seem to get fat adapted. I do clean fast since I started to fast. I do 19-6 most of the time. I close my window with no sweets, so my glucose levels won't be higher. I lost weight, then gained all of it back, and some more.  I'm 50 years old. I weigh 170 and 5-3, so yes, I'm obese, L-O-L. She said L-O-L. I didn't add that in. She said it. So what are your thoughts, Yuri?

Barry Conrad

Well, Nydia, how's it going? I hope you're having a good week. First off, massive, massive respect for sticking with IF for four years. That's a long time and it's a real commitment, which is great.  I know how frustrating it could be, you know, to feel like you're doing everything right, but not really getting the results you expected. But let me tell you that your, your body isn't, it's not working against you. Your, it sounds like from what you're saying that something's out of sync there, but we can, we can figure it out. So when people talk about quote unquote fat adapted, it means like their body has shifted into like a fat burning mode, which means using stored fat for energy instead of running on carbs. And based on what you're saying, you are clean fasting, doing a solid 19, six situation and keeping your sugar in check, which is good. So you're ahead of the game there. But if your body is holding on to the weight or even gaining, that's a big clue that something needs tweaking here. So the first thing I'd look at is drum roll protein, protein intake, because it's, it's a huge, it's a huge thing, especially at 50 and as we get older, we naturally lose muscle and that can slow our metabolism down. We name checked over four, but for example, Dr. Gabrielle lion, who's the physician and expert in all things muscle. You know, she says that after the age of 30, we can lose approximately like three to 8% of muscle mass per decade. That's significant. So with that rate, even accelerating after age 60, we need more protein. So if you're not getting enough protein to support your muscle, your body isn't going to burn fat as efficiently.  And that's just the reality. So I'll be real. A lot of people think they're eating enough protein and a lot of my friends and family say, yeah, I had a steak for dinner. I had some chicken for lunch. I had my protein, but that's actually not having enough. When you actually track for a day or two, you'll find that you're way under like a lot of people do. So a good rule rule of thumb here is to aim for at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight and don't just guess it though, like actually track it for a couple of days and see where you're at, that might surprise you. Next up, are you eating enough overall? So this might kind of sound weird, but if you're under eating, your body can go into a kind of survival mode where it actually will hold onto the fat instead of burning it, which is not what we want. So this happens when we fast too aggressively or we don't fully refuel in our eating window. So eat enough on the flip side of that. It's easy to overeat without realizing, right? Especially if your meals are packed with like cheeses or, you know, quote unquote, health foods in the health food aisle, which are calorie dense.

Barry Conrad

So tracking your intake for a few days, it's going to help. Then we have to talk about hormones. I'm going to tread lightly here. Melanie, you can jump in if you need here, but because this stage of life, from my understanding of it, things like insulin, estrogen, cortisol, and thyroid function, it all plays a huge role in the way we lose weight, lose fat. So if your insulin sensitivity has changed or your estrogen levels are shifting, your body might store the fat more easily, especially around your your midsection. And we can't forget about cortisol because if stress levels are high, that's going to spike cravings and slow fat loss and even like really mess up your sleep. So if you haven't had your hormones checked in a while, this could be, could be a missing piece of it.  Sometimes even simple shifts in meal timing or food choices are going to help to bring that back into balance. And speaking of sleep, like, and I'm preaching to myself here, it matters so much more than we think, because if you're not getting the deep quality sleep, your body doesn't fully recover, your hunger hormones get out of whack and your metabolism is going to slow. So if you're not winding down probably before bed nadir, I definitely think it's worth paying attention to.  Bottom line, I don't think this is any kind of failure or nothing's broken. It's just, I think there's just some tweaks you can make here. And honestly, the fact that you stuck with this for four years proves you have the discipline, the mindset and the patience to figure this out. You don't need to overall everything. It's just fine tune what's not working. You've already done the hard part by staying consistent. And so I reckon you're much closer than you think you are. You got this, Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon

That was so wonderful. That was amazing. Thank you so much.  I agree with everything you said. I'll throw in some other things that you could think about or consider. So first of all, I love the protein, I echo all of that back. So I think we've made it really clear how important that is. And one thing you could try. So you say that you you close your window with no sweet so your glucose won't be higher. If you haven't done a round of wearing a CGM, I would highly recommend that. So it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a little sensor that you put on your arm and it monitors your blood sugar levels 24 seven. So you'll get a good picture of how your blood sugar is actually responding all throughout the day. And I think that will provide a really helpful picture of what might be going on.  So you could try Nutrisense. So for that, go to Nutrisense.io slash I have podcasts, that's n u t r i s e n s e.com slash I have podcast and use you can use the code I have podcast that will get you a discount. I think it's $30. But it will definitely get you a discount and one free month of nutritionist support.  So you could try that. And then you can also try a lumen device that might be something to try. I love lumen. It's a device which measures the level of carbon dioxide in your breath to actually tell you if you're burning carbs or fat, and then helps you work you through to get more into the fat burning zone more often. It's a really, really cool metabolic device. It's actually the same science when they do these studies in lab controlled ward studies where they try to see how people are burning carbs or fat, it's actually using that science, which is so cool. So if you want to discount on that, you can go to Melanie Avalon comm slash lumen l u m e n and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon and that will give you a discount there. So definitely try that or definitely consider trying that.  And then I recently interviewed for the second time I interviewed her recently, this episode will be airing April 11. So check it out when it airs. It's with Dr. Kate Shanahan, although you can actually listen to I interviewed her a few years ago. So you can listen to that old one in the meantime as well. And that's on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. So Dr. Shanahan, she wrote Deep Nutrition, which is an incredible book. That's how I was exposed to her work. But then she more recently wrote The Fat Burn Fix. And then her newest book is called Dark Calories. And the subtitle is how vegetable oils destroy our health and how we can get it back. She is a huge proponent of the idea that seed oils are what are causing so much of our metabolic health issues today. She does take it to the utmost extreme, like this is the cause of like all the problems. I do think there's something there though, I personally have been on a seed oil free diet for years and years.

Melanie Avalon

I've been on a quote PUFA depletion diet. So basically, PUFA is the poly unsaturated fatty acids, things like omega three is omega sixes and they're very high in seed oils. And these, these fats, they're not meant to be energy, they're more like a, they have health benefits for our body, but they're not meant to be burned by the mitochondria as ongoing energy. And when they are, they're very inflammatory. And she makes a very comprehensive scientific case for the fact that these are creating insulin resistance, metabolic health issues and are and are like she thinks it's like the reason people get into stubborn weight situations like Nydia is experiencing.  So you could definitely I don't you don't mention and I think this is huge. You don't mention what you're eating besides not eating sweets at night. There is so much potential that can happen when you clean up. I don't like the word cleanup. But when you change actually what you're eating, so change to eating just whole foods, removing those seed oils, removing processed foods, that can have a massive effect on your metabolic health and your weight loss. So that's definitely something to consider. And then also, like I was talking about earlier, if we have these toxins stored in our fat tissue, especially if you're obese, you probably have a lot of toxins stored in your fat tissue, that might be making it harder for you to lose weight. It is what it is. It's not meant to be scary or bad. It just it's knowledge to know that that might be an issue for you and that maybe you need to lose weight slowly and as much as you can reduce your incoming exposure to these environmental toxins through your diet choices, your skincare and makeup, all the things.  So and then I will just quickly say, you know, Barry's comment about hormones. So so huge hormones can be a big reason that we, you know, can not easily lose weight. So Anything you do to optimize your diet with like the food choices and your health and your lifestyle and your sleep, those are all going to help with hormones, kind of just to echo what Barry was saying.  So you've got this, there's a lot of things you can try, keep tweaking and you can always write back in, keep us updated. Yeah, let us know. So, okay, Barry, shall we hypothet... or what's the word, hypothetically? No, no, no. What's the word? Hypothetically break our fast? Not hypothetically. Hypothetically. Hypothetically.

Barry Conrad

So we virtually, yeah, I guess hypothetically, I guess so, right?

Melanie Avalon

And it's not hypothetically. What's the word for it's like you're not actually doing it, but you're like doing it in your mind?

Barry Conrad

We mentally break up, so we imaginatively break up us.

Melanie Avalon

Should we that our vast let's do it. Okay, I'm so ready. Awesome. Do you have a restaurant for us to talk about?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant today that I'm really excited about.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I'm excited too.

Barry Conrad

It's called Kaya wine bar, and it's in my favorite city in the whole world. You can guess it, Mel.

Melanie Avalon

what your favorite city in the whole world? Wait, is it in, what? Is it in, I should know this, I'm embarrassed.

Barry Conrad

It's in the States.

Melanie Avalon

It is in the U.S.? Okay. Is it New York?

Barry Conrad

Yes, you got it. I was going to say that.  And the other reason why it's one of my favorite, one of my favorite restaurants to share is because it's South African, which I am. So Kaya wine bar, it's like nestled in Manhattan's Upper East Side. It's a celebrated South African haven founded in 2011 by Suzanne Haupt of Leish, a native of South Africa's Free State province. Kaya means home. So that's the vibe we're sitting here. The Michelin guide highlighted it as like a South African gem in the heart of Manhattan. It's been recognized as like one of New York's essential places to eat by eater. And the New Yorker also featured Kaya noting its unique position as the city's sole South African restaurant.  So I'm so ready to go. And Melanie, it offers a diverse array of South African dishes like elk tata, lamb burgers and traditional boba tea. Do you know what elk is?

Melanie Avalon

Do I know what elk is? Do I not know what elk is? Do people not know what elk is? I mean, some people don't. Wait, really? I love elk. It's my favorite. It's so good. It might be my favorite.

Barry Conrad

and get this as well. It has a selection of over 50 South African wines, which I knew you'd like. So, elk and wine.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Okay.  Yes, because the purpose of this is we want to emphasize how much we love food and fasting is not just about fasting, it's about what you're eating as well. And it's about breaking the fast.

Barry Conrad

I'll just send you the link.

Melanie Avalon

they have oysters i will not be getting those.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, why not?

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. I'm done.

Barry Conrad

OK, here we go.

Melanie Avalon

No, I am going to have them with you one time and then I'm officially done.

Barry Conrad

Maybe more than one time if you actually see the light and see how good they are.

Melanie Avalon

Mm hmm. They have normal oysters and roasted oysters. Sure. For the sliders and snack.  Okay, wait. So, okay. So there's sliders and snacks. There's a taco shop. There's a lot of stuff. Okay. Then there's like the, wait, so what does this mean? Is com com? What is that word? Combuis entree?

Barry Conrad

Okay, so it basically means like the kitchen, like a nautical term for cooking placed aboard a ship. So here we go.  This is like the kitchen time to eat. So it's like the main course situation. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Well, for my starter, I would get the lamb skewers, which come with lamb skewers, apricot and onions, and a Pinatas reduction. So I would get them rare, completely plain, and can they put everything on the side.

Barry Conrad

Just the one, just the one thing.

Melanie Avalon

This is the starter. Oh, um, I think so. If you get some bacon, I might taste it. Wait, what are, what are drummets like duck drummets?

Barry Conrad

Jomet's a kind of like, you know, drumsticks, like, you know, like, uh, do you call it drumsticks in?

Melanie Avalon

Oh yeah, that's cool. Okay, I'll have those as well also with the sticky mango chutney sauce on the side, please.

Barry Conrad

And the mango chut- Honestly, Melanie, Mrs. Ball's chutney in South Africa is a staple and it'll change your life. It's so good. It's so good. That mango chutney.

Melanie Avalon

That's like a thing that's known there.

Barry Conrad

It's definitely a thing.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, those are my choices, how do you feel? What would you get for the starter?

Barry Conrad

How do I feel? First of all, I feel disappointed that you didn't choose oysters, but I'm gonna go.

Melanie Avalon

You can get the oysters.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to get roasted oysters and the regular oysters.

Melanie Avalon

You're getting both. You're getting roasted and the regular.

Barry Conrad

Why are you yelling?

Melanie Avalon

I'm just clarifying. There's going to be a lot of oysters.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and the roasted oysters, listen, it's caramelized shallots comes with caramelized shallots, smoked cheddar and breadcrumbs. Then I'm also going to get the lamb sosotis, which is the lamb skewers that Melanie got and the, the ian tflerikis, which is the drumettes.  So I'll get the same of those two. And then I think I'm also going to get the duck a spice chicken with onion, marmalade and caya aioli. So that's like four, four trinkets, a little something, something, nothing too crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Are we going to double up on the things or share it? Like the ones that are overlapping? I guess. Let's share it. We could, but then also, how do you have your lamp code?

Barry Conrad

Well, the elk, for example, which we haven't got into yet, it has to be on the, more on the rare side, it's to stay tender, but lamb, medium rare rare, I could do, I could do either.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it sounds good. I like this menu. I really like the different, the diverse representation of animal related foods.

Barry Conrad

I knew it. So Africa is like animal protein heaven. You love it there.

Melanie Avalon

Oh man, I bet I would.

Barry Conrad

So what about a main situation for you? What are you thinking?

Melanie Avalon

So I'm not going to go the taco route, I don't think, unless they do it without taco shells. Actually, what if I, could I request just like all the meat? Because at the taco shop pick three, could they just give me the meat, like just give me the pork, the shrimp, the steak? That's too confusing.  I'm going to go the entrees. Okay. I will get, I'm so excited about this el carpaccio. This is so exciting. And I love that it's an entree, like a main thing. It must be really big. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. I'm excited.

Barry Conrad

And also just to let you know as well, like in South Africa, portions, we throw down. Like we can, it's big.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, like America, like the U.S.

Barry Conrad

Maybe not quite as big, but it's on the bigger side.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Well, I'm really excited about this el carpaccio situation.

Barry Conrad

What about the, what about the commasals, which is peri peri dry scallops. You didn't like that. The look of that.

Melanie Avalon

So I don't like to get scallops when I'm out because I, I have them all the time at home and I eat pounds and pounds with them at home. There's no way on earth. If I order them out, it's going to be enough.  It's going to be like a scallop. But wait, where is it? What's it called?

Barry Conrad

the camossels that's so like that's it's just above boboti come on

Melanie Avalon

Well, I do like, okay, let's get those two. I changed my mind.

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, my eyes went straight to the Gatsby and this is, okay, so listen, I'm from Cape Town originally, so that's, the Gatsby is sort of like this big roll. If you can imagine like a, a French stick, but wider and bigger, and they fill it with like all kinds, like any feelings that you want, like chicken or whatever kind of animal protein and fries, sometimes it's just delicious.  So I'm going to do the Gatsby, and this is described as, Portuguese roll stuffed with garam masala pulled chicken, pepper dews, cayenne pickled curvy cucumbers, mayo and fries. So I'm going to have that, the El Capachio that Mel had, and also I have to go for, just because it's the wild, some peon mac and cheese, got to do it. So I'm really going in here.

Melanie Avalon

I will look at your mac and cheese and appreciate it vicariously through you. I'm excited you're ordering it because I like looking at mac and cheese.

Barry Conrad

Would you try some? Or no?

Melanie Avalon

No, boy. Oh, no, it's not good. It wipes me out. I know.  So I know like what food, Barry and I talk about this a lot. Like I know what food makes me feel good inside and out and some don't. So I'd rather not have them. Like I'm like a happier person not having it, but I still appreciate it vicariously through other people. And then I eat the food that I like, I might as well, if I'm going to love what I'm eating anyways, I might as well eat the food I love that's also not going to make me feel bad, you know?

Barry Conrad

It's a good call, you know, kind of be mad at that. Personal.

Melanie Avalon

like my personal constitution. Yeah, I had another thought about it. I don't remember.  Oh, the El Carpacho. I'm excited because I do like mustard and it comes with her, it says with my mother's mustard is what it says, and a peppery arugula salad. So I might bury, I might actually have some of the accompanying sauce, the mustard.

Barry Conrad

That's awesome. Because usually, listen as you already know this, but Melanie would be like, I'll get everything, but I'll have like, you know, all the additives on the side. You know?

Melanie Avalon

There we go. That's awesome. Yep.  I would just have it not at all, but I want them to feel like, I feel like it makes the chef happy if I at least get it on the side. And then other people might want to try it. So everybody wins.

Barry Conrad

Everybody wins.

Melanie Avalon

So what would you get for dessert? Is there a dessert list on here?

Barry Conrad

Yep. Scroll on down and you're going to see all kinds of other things there that you're going to that I need to point out to you like Bill Tong. Do you know what Bill Tong is, Melanie? Yes, we do.

Melanie Avalon

talked about this. Where is it on here?

Barry Conrad

So good at the meats.

Melanie Avalon

Wait a second, is this a whole other menu? Oh, is this just like meat? Oh my goodness, I miss this part of the menu. Okay, well this is great because this will be my dessert.

Barry Conrad

I knew you'd like that.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, I'll try the Biltong.

Barry Conrad

Do you want to go first?

Melanie Avalon

They put emojis, oh my gosh, they put emojis in their descriptions. I'm so not not like an actual emoji, but like a smiley face.  I'm so a fan of this place. I don't think I've ever seen that in a minute. I don't know if I have never seen that in a menu. I don't think have you.

Barry Conrad

No, I haven't actually. It's actually a good point.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. I love it. Okay. Because it says South African biltong. And then underneath it says one fourth pound naturally dried beef jerky, but way better. Smiley face.  Wow. That's funny. I think I would get for dessert the prosciutto. Maybe the, I don't know, what is car, Carpicola? Goose. Goose? Oh yeah. Let's try that. Yeah. Some of the meats. I would just be like, bring me a lot of meats.

Barry Conrad

Even their wineries there, you're just going to have to go to South Africa because it's just like the meat is so good to produce and the wine is so good, I'm getting excited.  Is that it? Are you getting nothing else for dessert?

Melanie Avalon

And then maybe I'll repeat something like whatever I like to the moat. Okay, so when we're having the appetizers, whatever I like really like, I'll tell them to save some for dessert for me at the end and I'll have it again.  So be it the duck or the lamb or I have to decide though when we're actually trying it.

Barry Conrad

Okay, for dessert for me, definitely getting the biltong, definitely getting the drouvours, which basically is dry sausage, it means that. But it's really delicious, so I'll get those two and then I'll migrate to the peppermint crisp tarte, which is like a peppermint crisp tarte, it's really, really good.  And then I'll have the malva pudding, which is basically a South African delicacy, it's sticky day, sticky cake with homemade vanilla custard, so I'll get those two and the meats.

Melanie Avalon

It all sounds really good. It sounds like you feel like you're at home, which is appropriate because it's about home.

Barry Conrad

What about Vino?

Melanie Avalon

So I can't answer on the fly because I would have to look up every single one and find the organic ones and then I'd have to look at the alcohol and find the low alcohol. But if I had to guess, I really, it's really hard to know.  But as far as like varietals that I'm intrigued by that I really like, I love Grenache Noir. I'm really excited by the look of that one. They are organic. So the Grenache Noir, the Foundry, that's just the first one that spoke to me and I looked it up. It looks like it's 13.5% alcohol. I try to get 13% or less, but it is organic. So I'm just gonna, just because I don't have time to look through all of them, I'm gonna go with that one for now. That one looks good.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I'm going to go for, you know, I usually go for Pinot Grigio, but we're in South Africa and there's lots of meat here. So I'm going to go for the Pinotage, which is, I've actually had that.  It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon

That's what I'm looking up right now, because it's like South African wine, like they're known for pinotage.

Barry Conrad

It's really good.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. Awesome. Well, great restaurant find. And I forgot, you said you have been here or have not been here.

Barry Conrad

I haven't been to this restaurant, but I'm going next time and I'm in New York. It's happening because I didn't know it existed until yeah.

Melanie Avalon

That's so exciting. You must send pictures and upload them to our Instagram.

Barry Conrad

I'll do it. I have to do it.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Okay, well, this was so, so fun for listeners. We hope you had as much fun as we did.  If you would like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions at iapodcast.com. You can also go to iapodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get the show notes, which there are a lot of notes in the show notes, a lot of blinks of things we talked about, all the things. Those will be at iapodcast.com slash episode 414, which is a palindrome. And you can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad, and we are iapodcast. So anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

Hope you all have an amazing week. Thank you for listening. Keep your questions coming and happy fasting and feasting from me.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

Bye!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.  If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Jan 06

Episode 403: Special Guest Scott Emmens, The IF Podcast Evolution, Melanie’s OMAD Journey, Podcasting Challenges, Social Dynamics Of Fasting, Biohacking Focus, Supplement Line Creation, The Mind Blown Podcast, A Future Vision, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 403 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.


SHOW NOTES


Behind The Mic Podcast | IG | MD Logic Website


SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets, electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. For a limited time, LMNT Chocolate Medley returns, featuring Chocolate Mint, Chocolate Chai, and Chocolate Raspberry. Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast.


FOOD SENSE GUIDE: 

Get Melanie's app to tackle your food sensitivities. Food Sense includes a searchable catalog of 300+ foods, revealing their gluten, FODMAP, lectin, histamine, amine, glutamate, oxalate, salicylate, sulfite, and thiol status. It also includes compound overviews, reactions to look for, lists of foods high and low in these compounds, the ability to create your own personal lists, and more.


STUFF WE LIKE: 

Visit ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike for all the stuff we like!


LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com


If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!


Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.


Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.


TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)


Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 403 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, Avalon X. And I'm here with my co-host Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.  So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi friends. So today we have a very special episode for you guys. It's actually a podcast swap. So Scott Emmons is going to be interviewing me all about my podcasting life and the history of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast and all the things. You'll be listening to that episode now. And it also will be airing on Scott's incredible podcast called Behind the Mic. So definitely check out that show. If you like this format on that show, Scott engages in super dynamic discussions across a wide range of topics with all different podcasters. He's had on crowd favorites like Ben Azati and Liz Wolf and many more. And they really dive deep into their expertise and their experiences and their insights, because so often in the podcasting world, especially the health world, we interview these incredible guests and the focus is on their topic. So on Scott's show Behind the Mic, you actually get to know the person behind the mic of some of your favorite podcasts. So definitely check that show out.  All right, now enjoy the show. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 403 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with a very special guest today on today's show. It is somebody that you guys are probably very familiar with because he has been on this show so many times. Actually, Scott, do you know how many times you've been on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast?

Scott Emmens

I think this is gonna make seven. Seven? Seven. I think I'd lucky number seven.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Yes. So, the backstory on what we're doing right now, we recently aired our final goodbye episode with Vanessa Spina, which was very sentimental and bittersweet. We adore each other. We adored podcasting together and her life and everything with her kids and homeschooling and all the things just wasn't going to work out anymore doing this show. So, I wish Vanessa nothing but the best and maybe actually we'll have to bring her back in the future for some special guest episodes.  So, now we are in the in-between because we do have a new co-host joining the show very soon. So, while we're in the in-between, with Scott Emmons, Scott has been on the show multiple times. He is my fantastic, incredible partner at IndiLogic Health, helping me create my Avalonix supplement line. Scott and I also have a third podcast together, a third for me, a second for Scott, which I will explain in a minute, called the Mind Blown podcast, which we just absolutely adore doing that. So, friends, definitely check that out. And Scott recently launched a new podcast called Behind the Mic, where he actually interviews podcasters, which is such a cool format and so, so fun.  It's actually a ton of guests that I've had on my shows as well. So, a lot of people you're probably familiar with. So, we thought we would do a fun mashup episode here, where Scott is actually going to interview me about my podcasting experience, I mean, just in general, but in particular, the intermittent fasting podcast with you guys. So, this episode is going to be a little bit of a personal episode for me, with Scott taking the reins. Yeah, it's going to work so well, because we're going to air it on his Behind the Mic show as well. So, yeah, Scott, I'm excited for this. Thank you.

Scott Emmens

Behind the Mic Wellness launched November 11th. I am super excited about it.  It is exactly what you said. Really, we take a deep dive into podcasters people already know. And then you get to meet some new voices that you probably haven't heard of before. So the whole objective is to spread the good word of podcasters in the health and wellness space doing great things for other people.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so it's an awesome show. Definitely check it out and you'll actually get a sneak peek of it right now because this episode is going to air on that show as well.  So Scott, I'm just going to, I'm going to let you take over and do your thing.

Scott Emmens

Awesome. Well, so, you know, Melanie, you've done so many things in the podcast world, intermittent fasting world, the biohacking world.  So I want to take us back, though, to sort of pre-IF podcast, Melanie. And I guess what led you into intermittent fasting? Was there a defining moment that you said, this is it for me? Or was there something else that came before intermittent fasting?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, so great question. It was both a defining moment, epiphany moment, like singular acute moment that I remember, and an evolution leading up to it, which was basically that growing up, I was always trying different diets all the time, just to lose mostly vanity pounds, and nothing really ever stuck or worked.  I mean, there were things like calorie counting, and I tried really silly crazy diets in college, like the cookie diet where you eat all these cookies instead of real food. And it wasn't until I discovered low carb in college that I realized what I was eating not only could be effective in helping me lose weight, but also had all these other health benefits as well. And I will say I'm no longer low carb, at least not, well, I do low carb nights, but I'm not currently low carb in general. But that really opened my eyes because from there I discovered the science of diet and the science of fat burning. I discovered keto, it was a whole thing. And this was over a decade ago, I was often in the internet web spheres, forums and message boards, trying to learn more about how to further optimize everything I was doing. And that's where I found this blog post because this was back in the days where blog posts were still the place to be. Because before, now it's all Instagram that they and people still do blogs.

Scott Emmens

Vlogs had a moment there. They were they were the thing

Melanie Avalon

Like you were a blogger, you know, like today you, you don't, people don't really identify as a blogger. I mean, you can, if you want to, and you might be one, I'm not trying to offend bloggers, but like they were like a thing for a while.  So there was this one blog post by this guy, Rusty Wayne, I think, and the title was eat one meal. I think, I think it said like eat one meal a day to lose weight or something like that. And it basically made the case for OMAD one meal a day, which is the intermittent fasting protocol that I followed for years and years and years. And a lot of our listeners do as well. And I remember this blog post had like hundreds of comments and all these people saying how incredible it was. And the idea was like really, it's so interesting to me because now it's literally what I do. It's so second nature. I can't imagine being any other way. So it's weird to me that there was a point in time where this concept of eating one meal a day was kind of shocking to me. I decided to do it. I had like a diet buddy in college, shout out to Ben and P. We would always do our crazy diets together. Like he did the cookie diet with me and the Apple fast and all the things.

Scott Emmens

Did he want to do the cookie diet, or did you arm wrestle him into the cookie diet?

Melanie Avalon

No, he was all about the different diet. Actually, did he actually do the cookie diet? Oh, he did the HCG drops. We did those. Yeah, so he was my diet buddy.  And so we decided to do the one meal a day thing together. It was called the, I was calling it the warrior diet, which is Ori Hofmeckler. I think I found the warrior diet Ori Hofmeckler's thing through after finding this one blog post. In any case, I decided to do it for a week while in film school. And I never stopped.

Scott Emmens

So you went to OMAD and are you still doing OMAD or have you kind of loosened that up? No.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I'm still doing it. No loosening.  Well, I have actually... Wait, let me... That was the incorrect answer. I have loosened in that when I first started, I was very much driven by the clock. So it was like, I am not eating until I have fasted a minimum amount of hours until this time. It was very intense about that. Now, I don't think about that at all. I just eat every night. I don't really stress about it.

Scott Emmens

like I did. Yeah, timing.  And I think, you know, everyone's unique and individual in that way, and timing probably doesn't matter as much as just getting the right amount of nutrients at the right, you know, in the one meal a day.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think some people like me, when starting, you need a very specific plan and protocol like time wise that you're sticking to to get into the habit. And then you can be more flexible, as you know, as it were.

Scott Emmens

I completely relate. As a former bodybuilder, at first, you read all the magazines, did all the form properly, did the basic routines and sets that they described. Then over time, you become in touch with your muscles and your body and you learn how to do things a little differently and then you start adding things. I think it's very similar when you're doing a diet or intermittent fasting. You've got to go through some kind of scheduled program to learn your body and then you can start to tweak it based on how you're responding as you get to know your body.  Exactly. Yep. So you mentioned the warrior diet. Is that one meal a day or was that something with a slightly different concept?

Melanie Avalon

That's Ori Hofmeckler's work. I've actually had him on the Intermittent Passing podcast, which blows my mind, A, that I forget that he's been on the show, and B, that he was such a key figure for me, and then I eventually was interviewing him.  Actually, that's just the way I feel all the time with all the people I interview. But his approach is based on, I think, the ancient Romans. And it's like the idea of being a warrior, and so you eat your big meal in the evening, but he does allow for during the day, you're allowed to have slight munching on salad greens and stuff like that. That's really the only really big difference between that and a traditional one meal a day approach that we talk about on here. Got it.

Scott Emmens

So, I mean, obviously, you know, you did the OMAD, you started intermittent fasting. What was some of the really difficult challenges you faced early on when you were experimenting with intermittent fasting in OMAD?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so what's really interesting is, so I had been low carb already. So I was pretty fat adapted, because a lot of people, they have to gain this metabolic flexibility where their body more easily taps into using their fat stores, because it can be pretty resistant in the beginning, especially if you've been eating a high carb diet, eating constantly, eating the standard American diet. So I didn't have that issue jumping into intermittent fasting, because I was already pretty good at burning fat.  So honestly, I remember the first day, very clearly, because it was on my friend's film set. On the film set, there's these craft services, which is like the snacks and the food. And I was so conditioned to just snacking all the time. And I was like, Oh, I can't snack, I can just drink tea now. So I distinctly remember that. After that, though, it was very easy for me. That's the reason I kept going, like I just never stopped. I didn't have a lot of challenges physically with appetite or cravings. That said, the social challenges were intense.

Scott Emmens

I was just going to ask about the social challenges because, you know, it's so often like, let's have lunch together, let's have breakfast together, it becomes part of your social fabric.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, exactly. And the good thing about doing if you do a one meal a day evening situation like me is the most communal meal does tend to be dinner. So that's not an issue.  But things like lunch and breakfast and yeah, just all of that. And this was before because now intermittent fasting is very well known. It was going to be anyways, but maybe our podcast contributed a tiny tiny bit to that. Back then people weren't talking about it or doing it as like a thing. So people thought if you said you were fasting, it was like people thought you were, I don't know, had disordered eating.

Scott Emmens

I have personal experience in two things. One, relating to that, so in 2015 or 16, one of my coworkers asked me, well, how are you staying fit? And I'm like, well, I do a lot of intermittent fasting. And he just literally burst out laughing, like, you think that actually works? There's no science to that at all. I'm like, actually, there's a ton of science and you haven't read it, so you think I'm crazy. But in 2016, it was definitely not mainstream. That same person today now is convinced that I have podcast or intermittent fasting is the way to go, which is kind of funny.  But the other thing you mentioned, like, did your show contribute to it? Well, just an anecdote. The first time I was on your show, I got a phone call from three or four of my friends and colleagues from, like, that I either was really good friends with or knew pretty well in the work situation or just really good friends with. At least three, I think four people either called or texted me. Was that you on I Have Podcast? Oh my God, I've been listening to that for years. So just within my small circle of friends, not all of whom are health nuts or biohackers or fasters, I had four different people reach out to me on the very first time I was on your show. So you definitely made an impact.

Melanie Avalon

Was it really that many, really three or four?

Scott Emmens

My best friend, his wife, Kate, her friend, another colleague, Ann, and a colleague in the health and wellness space named Dawn. So that's the ones I can remember, but there's probably more.

Melanie Avalon

That's so crazy to me. And you know what else is also really interesting? So aside from when I'm at a conference where a lot of people I meet know who I am, in my entire seven or so years of podcasting, I don't think I yet have met a random stranger who knows me from my podcast, even though I hear so many stories like that, where like other people's friends listen, or like my mom. My mom moved into, my parents moved into a townhome and like their neighbor listens to my show. So like it happens to other people, but I don't think it's ever happened to me. Like I've never met a random person and then they're like, what do you do? And I say podcasting and then what are your shows? And I tell them, and then they've heard of it. Like, I don't think that's ever happened. Isn't that weird?  You'd think that would have happened at least once.

Scott Emmens

Well, I think as you continue to go to more conferences and travel more, I think that's going to become commonplace for you.

Melanie Avalon

Conferences don't count, Scott. That's what I just said. Conferences, like everybody at conferences knows me. I'm sorry, this is like.

Scott Emmens

Just walking to the airport or at the grocery store. Yeah, I hear you.

Melanie Avalon

It's just weird because it happens to people, you know, like you just shared that story.

Scott Emmens

It's coming, I feel it. So, you also wrote a book. Now, did the book come before I Have Podcasts or did I Have Podcasts come before the book? What, when, why?

Melanie Avalon

some listeners have heard this story. Okay. I was working on, I had my agent backtrack. I still published the book in 2014, I think. So that was pre-podcasting completely.  I got an agent, a publisher. So that was like 2017. I was working on the book to re-release it in stores. And that's when I started trying to find a co-host. And so that's how I found Jen Stevens. You know the story, Scott, of what happened?

Scott Emmens

Vaguely, I think we've talked about it in the past, but my listeners won't know.

Melanie Avalon

I knew I wanted to do a podcast on intermittent fasting. I knew I needed a co-host.  I had not done a podcast before. So I was like, how do I find a co-host? And I was like, well, I'll just like look for intermittent fasting Facebook groups. And then I'll ask in there if anybody wants to co-host. So I found the biggest intermittent fasting Facebook group I could find, which was Jen Stevens's group. I went in there, I posted, I said, I wanted to make it super clear. I was not trying to pitch my book at the same time. I wanted to give myself credibility so people would know like, oh, this is like a legit person. She's writing a book about fasting. She wants to do a podcast. So I said in the post, I was like, I have a book coming out. I didn't mention the name or anything. I was like, I have a book coming out and I really want to do a podcast on intermittent fasting. Would anybody like to co-host with me? And the group freaked out on me, like flipped. Like all these comments about how horrible of a person I was to come in Jen's group and promote my stuff.

Scott Emmens

How dare you promote yourself?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So I was like, Oh, okay. And then they blocked me from the group. So I was like, Oh, well, that's not going to happen.  Okay, moving on. And then Jen herself, who I didn't even know at the time, messaged me and said, Hey, she said she had been thinking of starting a podcast. So did we want to maybe discuss doing it together? So yeah, we did a phone call and

Scott Emmens

That's a cool story.

Melanie Avalon

We did a phone call off to the races and we podcasted together for five years or so.

Scott Emmens

ish. It's funny how, you know, the person that is running the group or the person that's superstitious, they'll find you, you know, if you put it out there, someone will find you and, you know, kudos to you for putting it out there. It takes a lot of bravery to do that.

Melanie Avalon

Well, thank you. And I'm so grateful to Jen because I'm so grateful because she had such a huge audience.  So once we did launch the show, we immediately had an audience which is not common in the podcasting world at all.

Scott Emmens

You decide you're going to do the intermittent fasting podcast. You now have a partner, but you alluded to earlier that there was like a distinct moment when you knew you were going to do a podcast on intermittent fasting. What was that moment? What went through your mind when you made that decision?  Like, I know I want to do a podcast.

Melanie Avalon

So there wasn't a distinct moment for the podcast that was for that was

Scott Emmens

for intermittent fasting itself.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, the podcast, I just knew I wanted to do but I didn't know how or when. So, yeah. But then once Jen sent me that message, we locked it in. We're off to the races.  And I had to figure it all out myself. Actually, the guy I was dating at the time, who was also my mentor for my book, because he was an author and a podcaster, among other things. And he actually told me what to do with podcasting. So that was helpful. It's always helpful to have a...

Scott Emmens

somebody tell you what to do. Absolutely, and I think that's been an advantage I've had working with you and other podcasters is kind of learning some of the things to do and some of the things not to do. So thank you for that.  But you did so much of it on your own. I mean, you really had to learn from the ground up. Plus you had a co-host that you were also supporting and you were, I think, weren't you even doing the editing yourself at one point?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it almost broke me like it literally almost in the beginning. I was doing everything editing. Yeah, I was edited. I would upload it. I would do all the, all the graphics, all the campaigns. I was prepping that it was, it was a lot. It was exhausting.

Scott Emmens

If there was if you could go back and tell yourself something as that podcast was beginning like advice you would give yourself When when I have to launch what would it be about? Would it be about the podcast would it be something else?  What would be the advice you'd give yourself right as you were launching that and doing all of this work that almost broke you?

Melanie Avalon

My first immediate thought was, oh, well, I would tell myself, outsource some of that and take it from sponsor money at the beginning, but then I'm like, Oh, wait, you don't have sponsor money in the beginning. So, you know, at the beginning, it's all, you're paying for everything. If I could have afforded it, I would have still said, outsource. Although I do like what I learned, I think I would have done it on my own for like a month, not for as long as I did, which was a long, maybe a year.  So that's thing one, there's been so many changes in the podcasting world over the past almost decade. So it's interesting because the way things are done now, a lot of it isn't even remotely how it was done back then. So I can't really, I was gonna give myself advice about that. But it's like that wasn't the way it was back then. So it doesn't really apply.

Scott Emmens

That is a great segue into the next topic, which is...

Melanie Avalon

Very vague answer, but.

Scott Emmens

Well, I think it's a legitimate answer, right? The podcast world has changed in so many ways.  I mean it's become Really? I think the go-to place people look for you know People in the know and so many people are turning to podcasts for all types of information because the long form allows you to do So many things and so it's become a really sort of mainstream but also the industry who's a part of it Like who you have to be partnered with there's so many things that have changed but to that point You're making a slight change in I have podcast you're having a new co-host that's going to be joining you But you also mentioned to me that the format might be tweaked a little bit Do you want to talk about like your vision for the future and where you see I have podcasts going in this new podcast world?

Melanie Avalon

I thought of another thing I would have given myself advice about, it literally could have been a TV show. We had a situation at one point where we got involved with people and there was so much drama, like podcast world drama, that was shocking, like it literally could be a TV show.  However, a lot of good things came from it and we got out of it. Just looking back, I would have like told myself to be ready and to do things a little bit differently. As for the future, yeah, so a few different things, one, well, I don't know if I'll ever be able to do this. I know I should be doing video podcasts, like I know, is behind the mic video?

Scott Emmens

It is primarily audio, but I am recording it via video and using the clips to sort of get people attracted to the audio, but eventually it will probably be partial video or whole video and audio, but it's primary mode is audio.

Melanie Avalon

I just realized the irony of asking that question when I know you're going to air this on it. So clearly it doesn't have to be video, but I'm just laughing because I was going to say how video is draining for me and you have to get ready.  And I'm like, but you're a Scott, Scott, you're a man. You don't understand. But now I'm thinking about Scott having to pluck his eyebrows.

Scott Emmens

Trust me, there's plenty of prep and it has to go into the on-camera.

Melanie Avalon

Can I tell this story?

Scott Emmens

Yes, you can.

Melanie Avalon

literally, I mean, it's not really a story, but literally, at one point, I was lamenting about all the prep that's required to get ready for video calls or podcasts or whatever. And Scott, like so sincerely, which I know you're still sincere about it. So I'm not making fun.  I'm laughing with you. But you were like, you're like, I know, like, there's so much to get ready. And I was like, Scott, what do you what do you have to get ready? Like, well, you know, I have to like pluck my eyebrows. I am like,

Scott Emmens

got to put a little gray cover up on the roots. So I've switched over to just going with a baseball cap now. That's made it a little easier.  But I'm about to say I'm not a huge fan of the video because it distracts me from the conversation. I find myself, like, am I looking in the camera? Does it look like I'm looking at the person? So while I see the value of it, because a lot of people like to watch things and listen, it doesn't allow me to be completely engaged in the conversation. And also, I'm an auditory learner. So to me, the video is a bit distracting, and I'm still getting used to it.

Melanie Avalon

What's interesting, I'm not an auditory learner, although I wonder if that can be gained as a skill. Like now that I listen to so many audio books and podcasts 24 seven, I feel like maybe I have gained that skill a little bit more than I would have been historically, but basically everything that you just said is exactly how I feel.  I get very, I can't focus with the video. There's mostly because I get stressed about how I look on the video and it's just, it's not good. Whereas like audio only, all you can do is listen to the other person, you know, you have to like be there.

Scott Emmens

I do think listening is a skill. For me, it was a natural thing because I was always an auditory learner from the time I can remember. I didn't recognize that until I was older, but then once I started podcasting and listening to podcasts and audiobooks was my first foray into it. So back in the day, you had cassette audiobooks and CD audiobooks. And that's when I realized, holy crap, I learned so much better through listening than reading.  But I do think it's something like anything that you can definitely enhance. And I think years of podcasting forces you to become a really good listener.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, for sure. I think, honestly, I think the best skill gained from podcasting is learning how to listen to somebody and not interrupt them. Yes.

Scott Emmens

because if you're interrupting a podcast it's just crosstalk and so you really have to wait for the person to finish their thought and not be thinking about what you're gonna say but really absorb what they're saying and then you know refocus yourself on what it is you how you want to respond or if you're gonna respond

Melanie Avalon

Exactly, like I feel it in real life when I talk to people like you feel this you feel it like jump in like that podcasting Muscle, although I probably interrupt you a lot Scott. So I apologize like in general

Scott Emmens

Check us out on Mindblown, you tell us. So once you started IF Podcast, I'm imagining you started learning a lot more about intermittent fasting.  Are there some moments of clarity or moments where you specifically recall like, wow, I thought I knew a lot about fasting. And all of a sudden, you have this level-up jump in your knowledge of intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon

Probably. Well, first of all, I try to maintain a perspective where I understand that I don't know anything and that I'm always learning. So I really try to maintain that moments where I have probably learned a ton and felt like there was like a jump in knowledge probably were when people would release certain, like, for example, reading like Dr. Walter Longo's work, like reading his books and reading about his studies or like reading David Sinclair's stuff and learning about sirtuins activated by fasting, although apparently people debate that now.  I don't know. That's what that's what I was listening to on Peter Tia recently. Yeah, I was probably being exposed to people's work where they really, you know, provided a lot of science or different perspectives. So like reading about like in the women's world of fasting, reading about like fasting for your cycle and things like that, different concepts. Like with Cynthia, when I brought Cynthia on, I think each co-host brought something. I mean, they all brought wonderful things, but they brought, you know, new perspectives to fasting. So, you know, with Jen and I, it was a lot about being really relatable and like, does this break my fast and, you know, what to eat in your one meal a day. So that was like the Jen vibe. And then Cynthia, it was wonderful because she knows so much about, you know, she's a nurse practitioner, she knows so much about women's hormones. So we, there was a lot of women's hormones and fasting topics. So I learned a lot with her. And then Vanessa's, you know, super big on the protein. So there was a lot in the science of protein and, and Vanessa was, she's not super intense, like athlete. I don't think she would identify as an athlete is my point. She though was the most, she's the most exercisey of like everybody I've had on the show. So, you know, we got to tackle more of those topics. And then I don't know if I will have announced the new co-host. So get excited listeners, because it's a whole new vibe and perspective. I'm excited. That also answers your question a little bit about the future changing co-hosts. So

Scott Emmens

I Have Podcast in particular has like a delicate balance between sort of guests, questions, storytelling, and science. Is it just natural conversation or are you consciously trying to balance the science with the empathy and the stories?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So it's interesting because I have the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast as well. And that one is very formulaic in the meaning of it's an interview show. I am very intensely it's about the science, you know, I'm very intensely studying their book or their work or whatever they do for, I mean, hours and hours and hours. And then when I'm interviewing them, I'm trying to create a connection with them personally and make them feel comfortable. And honestly, all my best friends now are often from the podcasting world.  The focus is, you know, the interview and the science and their work. With the intermittent fasting podcast. Yeah, it's it's hard. Hey, it's hard to know like what the people want, like, and I think people want different things. So like if you make it more if you make some episodes more sciency, some people love that, but then other people don't. And then if you make the episode more personal, some people love that other people don't. So I honestly, I did have this is a moment I had, there have been like different defining moments while podcasting where I made personal decisions about things. And I did have a moment where I was like, you know what, I'm going to take into account, obviously, what the audience wants. And I'm going to do all I can to make a show that people love. And also, I'm not going to super stress out if I can't make everybody happy, basically.  So what do I most enjoy talking about with the fasting and what vibe feels most, you know, like fun and like being at home. So I think that's this show, the intermittent fasting show is, it's more of a, like a home vibe than, you know,

Scott Emmens

Yeah, like hanging out with your friends who are giving you good information and good science, but it's also just a casual conversation. Exactly.  I think that's what attracts a lot of people to it is you get to the science, but you really do it in a way that makes people feel like they're sitting in your living room having a cup of coffee chatting with you.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, and also shout out again to our Mind Blown podcast because the way Scott and I are talking right now is it's more interview-y. On that one, we just tackle random, super cool topics like the Mandela Effect and things that have vanished that people don't realize anymore and catacombs, so many things.  And we're very like, we're our true selves, I feel. Do you feel like we're our true selves?

Scott Emmens

Yeah, we get to let our hair down on that one and really just just have a blast with it and be just be us and it's a ton of fun. My favorite was the Titanic.  We got a lot of Titanic one and two. We got a lot of praise on that dual part episode. I love doing that podcast. It's just so much fun.

Melanie Avalon

It is so fun, and this is fun too. I'm just saying like, because I remember the, actually this is another defining moment.  I remember, so Stephanie Rupper and Noelle Tarr, if people know them, they have the Paleo women podcast. Oh, sorry. Wow, wow, well-fed women. You know what's crazy is I've, the reason I said Paleo women is I'm going back to the story from when I was listening to it back then. That's what used to be called, I know it's called well-fed women. And Scott, you've had Noelle on, have you had her on behind the mic?

Scott Emmens

She is scheduled to record soon and I have been on her podcast about four times.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, awesome. Well, love Noelle. The story I'm telling here, what I'm thinking of is, so her co-host is Stephanie Rupor. And I remember, I love Stephanie as well.  I remember the first time I ever listened to Stephanie's stuff was before. She briefly had her own podcast, I think, before she did Wealthhead Women with Noelle. And I remember her vibe was like a very specific vibe, like a very serious and I don't know. And then I heard her with Noelle. And I was like, Oh, this is like a completely different person to me. I mean, I know it's all the same person. But that's the thing I'm emphasizing about I find it really interesting dynamics between people and how it can be like very different in different situations, even though it's all like true to yourself.

Scott Emmens

I know Stephanie a little bit on a personal level and she is a little bit more on the serious side, but when they're together, they blend the chemistry really well. Yeah, I love them.  So then you make this shift into biohacking. That's a huge shift because biohacking encompasses so many things, right? So you made the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, which I loved. That was, I think, the way I found you was through your biohacking podcast and we connected through Instagram. But I love that podcast as well because I love the science stuff and you do such a thorough job of interviewing people. So tell us a little bit about how you made that decision to shift into biohacking. What was that about and why? And then a little bit about the biohacking podcast, you mentioned it a little bit, but I'd love to dig into it some more. But let's start with, what was the moment you said, I'm doing a biohacking podcast on my own. Yeah, let's start there.

Melanie Avalon

The biohacking journey was happening adjacent to okay, like a year after starting intermittent fasting probably ish I started intermittent fasting When I was a junior in college And when I graduated is when I started getting into quote biohacking But I wasn't calling it biohacking at the time because it wasn't really a thing But everything I was doing ended up becoming what biohacking is today and my entrance into that was Dave Asprey who? I've had on this show Two times and I think he's been on two times on the Melanie Avalon or three He's been on a lot.  The point is I was following a lot of his work doing things like blue light blocking glasses and Red light therapy and all the things so that was all happening alongside my intermittent fasting journey and Then it was definitely happening once I started the intermittent fasting podcast and I was getting more and more into it And I knew I wanted to have my own show and interview these people But I was kind of intimidated by the the concept and then I read the secret You know the book the secret

Scott Emmens

Of course I know the book. Manifesting.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and I don't know how much I believe 100% in everything it says. That said, it's such a short read and it's very inspirational and you read it and you just feel like I'm just gonna do it. So like I read that and I was like, I'm doing a podcast, like I'm doing a biohacking podcast. I remember standing in my kitchen finishing that book, having that moment and then I started it probably a few months later.  It was crazy because I decided to start it while I was moving from back from LA to Atlanta. What was scary about it and it's so ironic because right now when I book guests, like if you book to come on that show right now, we're booking 14 months out and then it airs a couple months after that. So almost a year and a half like leader, your episode will air if you book with me right now, which is an incredible, amazing problem to have. But when I first started, it was stressful because I was like, I have to have enough guests in the can because I have to keep finding guests. So like what if I can't find guests and there will be no show. So it was stressful to think about how am I going to get so many high caliber people. And it's also hard to get people to come on when you don't have the show yet.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, so I had this conversation with Benazai. He was one of my very first interviews for Behind the Mic Wellness. He's like, I'm never going to get this person on. And then he's like, but then I would, you know, email them and surprisingly, they said yes. And he's like the power of the podcast. And I was nervous too, to like, reach out to people and be like, Hey, you want to be on the podcast? But I got about a 75%, you know, initially positive response. And I was like, wow, that's great.  And now that the podcast is launched in a lot of episodes, I feel like, to your point, it'll become easier and easier. But yeah, that pressing that send button to invite somebody sort of, it's almost as scary as you know, hitting the submit button to drop your episode, you know, because you're just speaking into the ether.

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. I think I've shared the story before.  I think the most shocking one for me in the early days was when I invited David Sinclair on, because I didn't barely even have the show yet. He was a legend at Harvard, and I just found his Harvard email. I sent him an email and invited him on. Literally, he emailed back and was like, sure. That blew my mind. It was crazy to me.

Scott Emmens

it was a mind blowing moment. That is, I mean, that's what, you know, that's really what it is.  Ben made this sort of funny comment on that podcast. He said, you know, like, if I just emailed Davidson Claire and said, Hey, you want to have a discussion with me about, you know, your research and your work, you know, he's probably gonna say no. But the fact that I had a podcast on a platform made it interesting for him as well. Like, he can get his message out to thousands of people. And I get a great guess. And, you know, everybody gets to win the audience wins I win and, and Dr. Sinclair wins. So there is, if you're doing your job well, but you do an amazing job of interviewing folks, you know, you're gonna get guests, just it's persistence and belief. And just to circle back on the secret, you know, I don't know if you ever read Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Is it

Melanie Avalon

Short as well? No, I might have. It's not.

Scott Emmens

Super short, but it was Napoleon Hill and Rosalie Beeland. It was released in 1937.  The basic of my point is, it's like the more complete version of the secret, right? It's like, it gives you the secret behind the secret. The secret is like the cliff notes that think and grow rich. So if you haven't read it, I strongly encourage you to do so for the listeners and melt you.

Melanie Avalon

I read either that or something very similar similar to it. Yes. I'll have to check it out. Wait is it an old?

Scott Emmens

book 1937 yeah okay oh so you might have you might be thinking of how to win friends and influence people that's sort of in the same I know that one yeah it's worth it thinking grow rich it's basically the secret but but a lot more in-depth like what would it really takes I should read it

Melanie Avalon

If I have not already, thank you.

Scott Emmens

So with the biohacking podcast, you said you're booked out a year and a half. That's incredible. Do you have thoughts about how that might more forechange or is that format really solid for you right now?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, the actual format, I don't see much change coming. It would really just be if I ever do more and more video interviews.  Or I mean, I would love to have like a TV show or a documentary or something. Or so if it could somehow evolve into that, that'd be amazing.

Scott Emmens

Have you ever had an interview like we were going in one direction and then it took like a hard left turn and you're like, whoa, and you had to either rain it in or it was almost became adversarial has that has ever happened or something similar.

Melanie Avalon

I have the majority. Okay. I will say one thing. I don't think I have with the exception of one episode way in the beginning before I had even launched and I was just you know trying to book guess and somebody reached out and wanted to be on it and I recorded that episode. It was mostly the sound quality just wasn't good so I didn't use it.  So with that one aside I have aired every episode that I recorded I think and I don't have I've been very happy and grateful and love essentially all of the guests that I've had on because I remember one of my co-hosts would often ask me you know did I ever have experiences of dud episodes or episodes where you know you just couldn't air it based on you know the the content and it didn't end up being what you thought that actually doesn't really has not happened to me. There have been times where I don't know maybe there've been a few episodes where I feel like somebody was getting a little bit argumentative or abrasive but never anything crazy. I very rarely censor any of the content like pretty much everything that we record goes out there as well. There was a little bit of nervousness in the beginning of the pandemic with saying certain words and worrying about getting things censored so you kind of had to like censor yourself in a way which I think is unfortunate. Yeah I've been very very happy with with all of the interviews if that makes sense.

Scott Emmens

I think everyone has those those moments where it gets a little tense or a little maybe miss something got maybe misconstrued in the question But typically, you know, you're a pro you get it right back online I've you know, obviously only done about 20 in the can so far and I think there's only one that's probably not gonna make the air It might maybe the way it's editable. We'll see Yeah, you do such a thorough job, you know reading your guest books preparing the questions I think that really serves you well and probably why you haven't had to not air anything And I really love the fact that you don't do a lot of editing or censoring You just sort of like hey, it is what it is We're gonna put it out there, but I do remember the COVID times and I'm still sensitive to that You know people start going off too much about that I'll I'll try to steer the conversation away just because there's so much sensitivity about it still today to this day

Melanie Avalon

agreed. And that made me remember the thing I was going to say, which is, and you kind of touched on this, but I think I so intensely vet who I'm bringing on that it's typically ends up manifesting the way I would love it to manifest.  There have been a few times where I was going to have somebody on and then getting closer and learning more about the work, I uninvited them. I prematurely addressed issues, if that makes sense.

Scott Emmens

Free intervention. Yes.  What are some of the things that are so positive about podcasting that you sort of never anticipated when you started IF Podcast, something that you would have never guessed would have come to fruition or that would have occurred through podcasting? Whether it's just skill sets that you've acquired that have helped you in life or things that you would not have been able to accomplish, anything that's substantial.

Melanie Avalon

I definitely had no idea how incredibly, insanely profound and incredible, and I don't like this word. I don't like the word networking, but what it would do for networking. Like I sensed that, you know, that that would be a thing, but it's literally like people, you know, people spend so much time and energy trying to quote network and like learn how to network and go to networking events. And it's like, which is all great if it works for you. So that always was intimidating to me and not my cup of tea.  I also don't like the concept of networking. Like it sounds like you're like using people or something. I just don't like it. I just like meeting people and talking to them. And the amazing thing about podcasting is I get to sit down with these incredible people who I would die to network with. And I get to actually talk to them for a long time about their work. So it's something they're passionate about. I get to really listen to them. I get to like the connections I have made and friends is just overwhelming. It's literally a job where you are meeting people constantly all the time on a deep level, not a superficial level. And like I keep saying it, but like all of my really, really good friends now are really all came from this world. I mean, I know you and I, well, I guess you did too, because you found me through my podcast. So yeah, that's true. Although we debate the origin story.

Scott Emmens

Yes, if you want to hear about that weekend, you can go to Mindblown and you can hear all about how we debate the origin story of our meeting. I think we've talked about that on I have podcast once.  Yeah, I probably have. So if there was one thing about the podcasting industry as a whole, that you would like to see changed or improved, what would that

Melanie Avalon

be? Okay, well, I have a very technical answer that's boring, but it's true. We'll take the technical answer. Podcasting sponsors are like rates are determined by downloads. And in the seven-ish years that I've been podcasting, there have been quite a few times where Apple podcasts will make a change in how they log downloads in a way. Like there's been changes where, like in the very beginning, it was like, every time you like play the podcast, it's like a download. And then if you stop and you come back, it's another download. And if you, I don't know, skip around, it's another down, like it was like a certain system. And then they like stopped doing that. So then what would happen essentially is everybody's downloads across the board, like drastically dropped.  Like another recent one they did was they used to auto download. Like when people were subscribed to shows or something, I probably get this a little bit wrong, but they would like auto, it would auto download to their phone and like count as a download or something like that. And then they stopped doing that. So that was like another moment where the downloads dropped. And what's been difficult during that is because sponsorships are based on rates with downloads. So like the rates aren't changing, but the downloads are changing, but the listeners aren't actually changing. It's just how they're monitoring it differently. And what's so weird to me is that that's like not accounted for and hasn't been, it's been weird. So that's a very technical, boring answer was what would you ask about what would be changed?

Scott Emmens

Yeah, well, if you could change something about the industry, but I think that's a very real thing that I mean, because a lot of like YouTube algorithm will change and suddenly you go to find your favorite YouTube show and it's either gone or the lost 10,000 subscribers or so I and you're exactly right. I was talking to some people about the podcast, you know, ranking systems and what you just said is they used to have if you were following the show, it would automatically download like the most recent 10 episodes.  I want to say. And now I think it's just like the most recent episode and you have to download the rest on your own. It might have actually even downloaded all the episodes, but for whatever reason, I think Apple thought that was too much Wi Fi bandwidth or something, you know, a brand within the system. I'm not sure what the reasoning for that is. But every time they change the goal post, you know, it sends the ripple wave through the whole industry. It's not just your podcast is all the podcast and then the sponsors have to figure out, well, what does this mean? And so it's confusing for everybody. So I think that's a great answer.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, exactly. And I remember, I remember when the big change happened where they stopped counting down when they stopped the whole downloads counting multiple times if you stopped and restarted. And we were with the network at the time. I remember saying like, so the downloads are lower, but it's the same number of listeners. So how is the industry adjusting? And there like wasn't really an answer.  Like it was really mind blowing to me. Yeah, so it's been the that whole world. And I think that's something really interesting that people wouldn't realize as much is that there's this whole world of like media buyers and agencies. And like, there's a whole world of like podcasting business. So you know, that's not that you're talking about things I've learned, you know, I learned a lot of business skills from from podcasting, which I didn't anticipate.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, I didn't anticipate that either, you know, I came from a long line of business knowledge, executive, etc. But I'm learning keep on learning.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And it's really funny. Like I've also realized like a lot of people think a lot of people don't read contracts that they sign.

Scott Emmens

It's almost like the terms of service, they just sort of...

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, because I like meticulously read all contracts I sign and there's been so many times where I'm like, who is signing these contracts? And I'll push back and we'll, you know, we'll get it fixed. But it just blows my mind. I'm like, somebody signing this? Like, as it is?

Scott Emmens

I think sometimes people feel like, you know, well, they're the whoever, so I don't have a, you know, I don't have a choice, but you always, if you're, if you're one of those people signing a contract, you always have a choice. And usually the people, if they really want to partner with you, they'll listen to what you have to say, and they'll make adjustments to the agreement.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so oftentimes it's just like their stereotypical legal document they're giving everybody, so it's not personal.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, so it's what they call the boiler plate contract. It's their template. They send everybody the template. And then if you don't choose to redline anything, then it is what it is.

Melanie Avalon

Exactly. Because I know we've had that before with brands and like one brand, the contract literally said I couldn't, like it implied based on the way it was worded that I couldn't promote my own products on the show. And I was like, that's a problem.  What? We're not? No.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, that's not gonna work, which I definitely want to get into next as we wrap up our last 10 minutes here. But I you do have a third podcast that you and I are co hosts on and I love what we mentioned earlier, we both love doing that podcast, which is mind blown.  And I honest to God, I remember us having sort of this text frenzy, and discussion slash then texting, but I don't remember like, what the impetus was like, what was the moment when we were talking about something? I think we were talking about some sort of esoteric Mandela was always the Mandela. And that I think the Mandela effects, that was it, we were talking about the Mandela effect, and we were giving each other our theories and thoughts, right? And then I think was it I can't remember who's you or me that said, Well, we should do a podcast about this. Do you remember how that went exactly?

Melanie Avalon

Well, I mean, because I know listeners check out the Mind Blown podcast, especially the episode one and two, that's where we share the major, major epiphany we had about the Mandela effect, which by the way, Scott, my sister was listening and her mind was completely blown by that and you know what she asked me? And this is what I still wonder.  She's like, are people talking about this online? Like, is this a theory? And I was like, no, like Scott and I came up with this theory and then like, it's not anywhere online, at least not yet. Point being though, I think we were so, it was just around that time. Is that when we, maybe we just said, we just got to make a podcast about this?

Scott Emmens

You know what, as you're saying it, I think it was when we came up with that unique theory that we both like, like almost in unison, like, wait, this is a podcast. And then I think I said, this is a podcast. And then you said, well, we should do a podcast. And I was like, we should? I think that's basically how it took off.  And then we just put our mind to it and we did it. Turned out to be awesome. But yeah, I think you're right. I think it was the epiphany moment came as we were digging so deep into this Mandela effect. And we came up with this unique theory. And I think that was sort of what pushed us over the edge to say, let's do a podcast about all these cool subjects. And we'll start with the Mandela effect.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, I'm glad you reminded me that I kind of I totally forgot the origin story. So now it's a documented here for life on behind the mic wellness and I have podcast, the next evolution.  So you did the biohacking, you did the podcast, and the next evolution was your own product line. Like, what point did you know, you wanted to make your own product line, and what gaps were in the market for you that you said, I think I can do better.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so something about my life, the way I live, and it literally keeps happening over and over, which is that there's a lot of things I want to do in life. And I, for a lot of those ideas, I just know that, like, it'll come to me. They're like, I just know there are things I want to do, I will do them. And I just need to, like, wait.  And it's not like I'm being lazy and, like, waiting around because I'm doing a lot of stuff. But I just wait for that right person to come into my life. And I'll just know that it's, like, the thing, like, this is the thing. And that has happened so many times. But honestly, the best example and, you know, one of the longest and most treasured is I always wanted to, I think I was always, ever since I got into health and wellness and started taking supplements, I probably was alert by the idea of having my own line. I'm so neurotic with what I put in my body. And it is really hard to find supplements that match my criteria. I literally think I'm, like, the most intense of anybody. I don't meet as many people who are as intense as me. I can attest to that. And Scott is a treasure in helping us with formulations and things. So I was very interested in the idea. I actually, for quite a while, was dating somebody who had his own supplement line. And he was saying that I should do it on my own because he did it on his own. And so he was saying, you know, I'll connect you to producers. He's like, I'll connect you to everybody and you can just do it. And I didn't want to do that. I knew that would wreck me. I knew energetically, I didn't want to be doing the actual production, you know, order fulfillment, all that stuff, just timewise. So I was like, I'm just going to wait. But I also didn't want to just, like, white label because I wanted to create my own products. So when Scott popped into my life, slid into my DMs on Instagram,

Scott Emmens

Yes, that was it, red light therapy, I slid in on red light therapy.

Melanie Avalon

We debate it a little bit, but we debate the first conversation. But when I first talked to you on the phone for a long time, we talked for like an hour, an hour and a half or something, I immediately just knew I wanted to do it with you. And what's funny about it is I knew from that moment and I didn't, I didn't think twice about it. I wasn't looking back.  And apparently Scott was like white knuckling it, thinking that I was going to give up, you know, or not be sold.

Scott Emmens

Well, I was white duckling it for a few reasons. One was, yeah, like I didn't know if you were really gonna pull the trigger, right? And then two was, you were so specific on how you wanted to make seropeptase because you have been talking about it on your podcast for, you know, years. And you had very stringent criteria that with that particular molecule, we had to like, actually create a new type of manufacturing process to make it without fillers and no anti-caking agents and no magnesium stearate and no plastic in the delayed release capsule. So we like, like made the perfect seropeptase. And once I got that down, I felt better about it.  I'm like, I think she's really gonna like this. And then we were off from there. So yeah, I mean, kudos to you for like putting seropeptase on the map.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I could not have done it without you. And yeah, Scott was so amazing and just he kept bringing me options. And I would not be about it and not because it was bad, just because I was so, so intense with my, you know, everything.

Scott Emmens

Well, one of the ones I was like, I figured a way to do it with just like rice hucks and you're like no rice. I'm like, oh

Melanie Avalon

No rice. And then you said acacia fiber.

Scott Emmens

Yeah. And then finally we landed on creating this new formulation process with the MCT oils. And you were like, yeah, perfect. I was like, all right. And that was it.

Melanie Avalon

And it was so exciting because it was my first product and I'd been taking seropeptase for so long. I thought I was just used to taking seropeptase and it feeling harsh on my stomach. I was just used to that and I thought it was the seropeptase doing that, but we made our version and that doesn't happen at all. And on top of that, it works so much better. It's incredible.  It's like the perfect seropeptase.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, I literally won't, but never can even consider taking any other seropeptase.  And then mag eight, which was another huge hit, then the berberine, which you went to the utmost extremes, you you actually requested that we had it double tested and third party tested, not just for all the things we already test for, which is heavy metals, toxins, mold, identity, specificity, you know, we do do laboratory analysis before the ingredients even walk in the door, but then on top of it, you you said, Well, I want to go one level above that. And for the berberine, because it's a root, you wanted to make sure there are no pesticide residues in there. So we put it through the pesticide residue test and it passed the California stringency test of all the pesticide residues and we're like, Okay, now we can launch it.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I did not trust using the source's own COA, yeah.

Scott Emmens

And we don't either, right? So we trust, but verify, right? So we always verify that C of A.  So that's amazing. The Parkline has been a huge hit. Avalonix, I'm sure everyone knows that. But yeah, I'm super proud to have been part of that with you and continue to be. And we've got other products coming down the line. So I'm excited for you for that. I can't wait to see what you do with that.

Melanie Avalon

Although we say it a little bit different, I say, although I think I said Avalon X earlier, but I mostly say Avalon X.

Scott Emmens

Oh, you know, I didn't pick up on that.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Wait, Scott, I have told you this so many times. Okay, well. Because you'll say Avalon X and then I'm like Avalon X.

Scott Emmens

All right, Avalon X, I will get it down now. That's like us with MD logic. I'm like, no, it's MD logic health. You have to put the health.

Melanie Avalon

I'll trade you. I'll say immunologic health if you say Avalon X.

Scott Emmens

Deal. Sold. Avalon X.

Melanie Avalon

IndiLogic Health.

Scott Emmens

Speaking of, I'm Dan and Kate May and I am literally five miles from Avalon, New Jersey.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, hey, I got, I use that bag you give me all the time. Scott sent me a bag that says Avalon on it.

Scott Emmens

Not Avalon X, but just Avalon. Yeah. I saw that bag, I'm like, oh, she'll love this.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. You know what else I use that you gave me all the time? Two things.

Scott Emmens

I don't know. You have to tell me.

Melanie Avalon

You gave me a coaster that says, what does it say? Something about kindness.

Scott Emmens

Oh yeah, I can't remember the quote, but I remember getting that.

Melanie Avalon

It says kindness and ambition are not mutually exclusive.

Scott Emmens

Yes, I saw that and I was like, that's Melanie.

Melanie Avalon

It's so great. And that's Scott too. And then you gave me some Star Trek sticky notes.

Scott Emmens

Oh, I forgot about the Star Trek sticky notes. Yeah, that was another thing we bonded over, is that there's not many Trekkies out there. And you're like, I love Star Trek. I'm like, oh my god, I quizzed you, and you got every question right. I couldn't believe it.  That was crazy. Love me some Star Trek. Really, one last question, then I want to turn it over to you. So since launching the supplement line, how has it changed the way you perceive your brand, your mission, your podcasting? Any ways that it's impacted you in ways you didn't think it would, and maybe ways that you hoped it would?

Melanie Avalon

kind of similar to the earlier thing I was talking about where I knew networking would come from podcasting, but I just didn't appreciate the extent to which that would happen. I knew having a product line would, you know, expand my brand, provide a nice foundation for doing even more things, but I really didn't realize just how huge it would be for that.  It was the first time. It's funny because I remember being featured, I was in Entrepreneur Magazine, I think, or something. I think this was before I had the supplement line, I think. Something happened with that. And I was like, I don't really feel like an entrepreneur. And then once I actually had a supplement line, I was like, Oh, okay, I guess I am an entrepreneur, even though I was before, I think. But having a product line, especially something I feel so strongly about, it's, well, A, it's amazing to see the response and to see how much it helps, not only me, because literally this is the supplements I want to be taking. It's amazing to see how it resonates with people. And like hearing people's testimonials that people share with me is just the most beautiful, wonderful thing. I'm so grateful for it. It's literally just all wonderful, beautiful things. And I think it really inspired me. It gave me courage to do other things that I think I would have been hesitant about doing, like launching other product lines and other things that happen in the works.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, it's interesting. Life is like that when you start getting a positive things happening, it sort of gives you that boost in confidence to say, well, I did that.  So you know what, maybe I can also do this. And then you branch out into other things.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I just remember like, when we first launched the first product probably, and I was like, okay, I was like, now I understand I want to make all the things. Now I already wanted to, but now I really do. Let's go.

Scott Emmens

Yeah, and I'll tell you that Syrupect taste lunch was something we sold out of the first batch in, like, what was it, eight hours or something?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. And we didn't say what it is, what seropeptase is. I realize that I probably need to define that more for people. If people are not familiar, it's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm.  When you take it in the fasted state, it breaks down problematic proteins in your body. And a lot of challenges people face have to do with the body reacting to problematic proteins. So inflammation and brain fog and problems with wound healing, like seropeptase and scar tissue, seropeptase breaks that all down. Oh, allergies. That's why I started taking it originally. It clears your sinuses like none other. So it's incredible for, it's just amazing. Like whole body benefits, clear your allergies, get rid of your brain fog, help with your inflammation. Studies have even shown it can break down amyloid plaque and reduce cholesterol. So I love it.

Scott Emmens

And I told you this is a personal testimonial and I don't recommend anyone do this. This is not a recommendation.  Just what I did, I had some pretty severe keloid scars on my nose and my forehead. And I used it with a coconut oil and just mixed it together. And I would put a little bit on my forehead and a little bit on that keloid scar. And it shrunk them topically by like 50%. It was amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's really incredible.

Scott Emmens

now I take it mostly orally. Well, Melanie, thank you so much for letting me pull you behind the mic on Behind the Mic Wellness on your IF podcast. I'm so grateful for that.  You can find me on the podcast Behind the Mic Wellness, Scott Emmons, E-M-M-E-N-S. And Melanie, let's wrap it up with you. Like, what do you have coming out? What things do you want people to know? And where can they find you?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, well, first of all, congrats to you on the show. I'm so happy for and proud of and excited for you.

Scott Emmens

Thank you. I couldn't have done it without you. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon

No, but really. And you're a really great interviewer and you ask amazing questions. You really make the guests feel heard and seen and understood. And so I'm so excited for you on that show.  And I have the time of my life doing Mind Blown and also creating all of our supplements. So, yes. Well, things coming, one that Scott is also involved in. I've been teasing it here and there, so I will say it. We are working on a dating app, so that's very, very exciting. Also a massive project. Oh, my goodness. I am also working on a EMF blocking product line that is coming out, so that's exciting.  And there's a few other projects in the works. I'm also really, really excited about, okay, well, in the podcasting sphere. So on Biohacking Podcast, like I said, booking six months out, there's an incredible lineup. There's so many people coming that I'm so excited to interview, so that's really exciting. I'm just excited about all the stuff I haven't even learned yet with that show and the people I haven't even met yet.  And then on this show, I'm very excited for the new co-host. Like I said, it's still going to be very much about intermittent fasting a lot, obviously. But it's definitely going to be a completely, completely new vibe, like so new. And I'm really excited about that.

Scott Emmens

Well, that's awesome. I cannot wait to hear how the podcast evolves for IF Podcast.  That's going to be great. And if you have not checked out Melanie on Melanie biohacking, I strongly urge you to do so. Really deep dive with great questions, with amazing guests. That was one of my first and favorite podcasts that got me more into biohacking. I was already a quasi biohacker, but that really kind of threw me into it. So if you haven't heard Melanie on Melanie biohacking, you should definitely check her out there. Melanie, thanks so much. And so websites, they can reach you at an Instagram handles.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so it's Melanie Avalon pretty much everywhere. I'm most active in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life is the subtitle.  I also have a clean beauty Facebook group and a group for like cgms and or rings and lumen and biosense and all of those. So if you just search for Melanie Avalon and Facebook, you can find my groups, my main websites, Melanie Avalon calm, you can get the supplements at Avalon x dot us.  Yeah, and then the shows for everything. So yeah.

Scott Emmens

Outstanding. Melanie, thank you so much for letting me come on I have podcast and do a behind the mic wellness interview with you. I hope your audience enjoys it as much as I did. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, thank you, Scott. This was really amazing. And I can't wait to record with you tomorrow for Mindblown.

Scott Emmens

That's right, pyramids, right? Here we come, pyramids.

Melanie Avalon

Pyramids, here we come!

Scott Emmens

Have a great night, Mel, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Melanie Avalon

too. Thanks, Scott.

Scott Emmens

Alright, thanks everybody. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.  If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Oct 20

Episode 392: Protein Needs, Coffee, Ice Cream, Spermidine, Longevity Supplements, Rapamycin, Telomeres, The Uncanny Valley, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 392 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Be sure to try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Spermidine is essential for fasting-mediated autophagy and longevity

Episode 379: Special Guest: Chris Rhodes (Mimio), Fasting Mimetics, Anti-Inflammatory, Autophagy, Fasting Metabolites, OAE, PEA, Spermidine, Nicotinamide, And More!

Go to mimiohealth.com and use the code IFPODCAST to save 20% off your first order!

Ion Layer: Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer.

Get 10% off with code MELANIEAVALON at melanieavalon.com/truage!

Get 20% off with code MELANIEAVALON at melanieavalon.com/agerate!

Go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the coupon code melanie30 for 30% off all tests sitewide!

Listener Q&A: Nicole - I am having a hard time getting two protein rich meals in before bed at 10.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 392 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 392 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm doing great. I have my chocolate protein ice cream here because this is usually when I have my chocolate ice cream, my protein ice cream after dinner and we're recording afternoon time and I was like, I didn't have my ice cream while we were recording today. And I just discovered I've started making different flavors of it. So I made a strawberry one, Luca and I usually share the ice cream together. I made a strawberry one just putting fresh frozen strawberries in it the other day. And then I just put cocoa in it and it made it chocolate flavor. Yeah, that's what that's what I'm having right now. I go down the road.

Melanie Avalon:
rabbit hole, looking at all the different ice creams that people make. I went on a rabbit hole the other night trying to see if you could make ice cream from just fruit, like without adding anything. Like a sorbet? Yeah, basically, because I'm already eating pounds of fruit. I was like, maybe I could get one of those machines and make this into like a cool sorbet thing.

Vanessa Spina:
If you had like the Ninja creamy, which I'm using, if you just blended that up, like I do that for Luca sometimes. I just do fresh fruit, like a banana, a mango, some blueberries, raspberry, strawberries kind of thing. And I'll do, I'll just put almond milk in it and sweet. Actually for him, I usually do regular whole milk. I just blend that up and then you freeze it and it turns solid. And then you just run it on the light ice cream setting the same as with the protein ice cream. And I actually put some protein powder in there sometimes for him too, but he loves it. It, what's amazing about it is that like my protein ice cream I'm having right now is just two scoops of protein powder and unsweetened almond milk. That's the only thing in it. And that, when I do it that way, it's vanilla ice cream, but it's the texture that makes it so creamy and ice cream like. So actually if you want, I can try doing that exact combo and let you know if it turns out like ice cream in the creamy.

Melanie Avalon:
just fruit. I basically want to do just blueberries with nothing else.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I usually make my shake with strawberries, raspberries, and blueberries, so I could try it like that. Yeah, Luca and I would probably love it. So I'll let you know if it turns out like an ice cream like texture, it might need some protein powder in there too, which you could use toned protein for, which is what we put in ours. But it just, I think the protein powder makes it a little bit more the texture of ice cream, maybe because of the milk, like the fact that it's derived from milk or something. But I'll try it and I'll let you know.

Melanie Avalon:
please do. I was looking at it and I was like, hmm, this is going to take a lot of time. So, because I would have to, it looks like I needed to blend the blueberries and then freeze them for a long time and then run them through the machine. I was like, that's a lot of extra effort.

Vanessa Spina:
But I am intrigued. I've been doing it all week because our in-laws are visiting us, so I'm also making them ice cream. So when I make them ice cream, I use cream and egg yolks and honey and vanilla, all the regular stuff for ice cream. So I'm blending it first and then I have to wait until the air bubbles go down a bit and then I put it into the container and then I freeze it. So yeah, it's a couple of steps, but I'd say it's definitely worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
I've said this before, but I'm really shocked that there's not yet a machine that does this instantly. I'm really, really shocked by that. That there's not a machine where you can just put in your, and it makes ice cream. Like, what year is this? I just feel like that would be, like, you know? I know. Like, the machines at Dairy Queen and McDonald's, do they pre-freeze stuff or do they just put in the liquid and it comes out ice cream?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know. I've been thinking lately that because I make iced coffees for Pete a lot that the best iced coffee would be if you made it and then froze it and then you blended it with something like a creamy because when you add ice to drinks, it just dilutes the flavor. If you just made like pure coffee, like he has a mocha, so it's like chocolate almond milk with espresso. If I just froze that and then made it, I want to try it. Actually, it'll probably just taste like ice cream.

Melanie Avalon:
Like a coffee ice cream. Speaking of coffee, this is a super teaser, probably won't happen for a long time. And, but, and I'm thinking of making a coffee line. Ooh. But that's, it's a ways off. We're at the like very baby stages of exploration, but I have an idea that I'm really excited about. So listeners get excited because I think I've, I'm really excited is the point about a unique aspect of coffee I would like to focus on. Love it. Also, we had some technical difficulties getting this episode going, and I realized it was my headphones. I was the problem. It was like definition, like I am the problem. But the reason was I can't believe, okay, Vanessa, when you record, do you plug your headphones into the mic or into the computer? I don't use headphones. Right.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, ever, which is like, I don't know podcast blasphemy or something like everyone, every single person who podcasts, wears earphones and I don't I don't like it. I feel like I can't hear properly or like, I don't know. I just I've never liked it. So I've never used them. I don't know actually why people use them.

Melanie Avalon:
this might, I think they use it for, this is the point of the story actually. So I had been for seven years or seven and a half years of podcasting, plugging my headphones into the monitor, like the computer itself, which all that does is lets you it lets you hear the other person. It doesn't do anything beyond that. Besides, I'm assuming it probably helps with like feedback and things like that. I just realized because I was recording with Scott for our Mindblown podcast, which teaser everybody check out. We talked about so many fun topics there. We were recording our episode on magic secrets in the Disney parks, like how they actually make everything so magical. But it was a really fun episode. Regardless, he convinced me to plug my microphone, sorry, my headphones into the microphone. Do you know what that does? It's like a monitor. Now I understand what you were just saying. Now I understand why people wear headphones. You hear yourself in your head.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's what I tried the first time and I didn't like it.

Melanie Avalon:
I didn't either.

Vanessa Spina:
You should try again.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, this is like a game changer. I feel like I'm going to upgrade my podcasting skills, because you can actually hear yourself. So I'm like, Oh, I need to enunciate better. I need to, whoo. It's like, it's like makes you it's really weird because you hear yourself in your head, but you hear what you're saying. So I feel like it's gonna make me a better human being, honestly.

Vanessa Spina:
That's a good idea. I should try it. I want it into your mic. I like looking.

Melanie Avalon:
Does your mic have a headphone? There's a... Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
There's a headphone jack, but I don't know what I would need so I'm moving the mic around

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So it's just funny. It's really interesting just as a life experience to be doing something for so long and then have this epiphany moment. So I feel like I'm a brand new podcaster right now.

Vanessa Spina:
That's awesome. That's really exciting. I'll have to try it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah let me know. Will anything else new or shall we jump into everything for today?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, excited to talk about these questions today.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, to start things off, I found a study I really wanted to talk about. It's called Spermidine is essential for fasting mediated autophagy and longevity. It's August 2024. So it's, whoa, actually, it's five days old as of this recording. And it is super technical. So I'm not going to go into the details of it. But the reason I was really fascinated by it and drawn to it is a few reasons. I've been intrigued by Spermidine for a while for two primary reasons. One, when I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger for his book, How Not to Age, he had a big chapter or section on Spermidine, which is a, well, it's a compound that our bodies create and also it's really high in food. And like he talked about this one study where they looked at all these different foods and tried to find the main or the one compound that was most linked to longevity and it was the Spermidine content, which is very interesting. And then on top of that, we've talked about a supplement on the show called Mimeo, which is a fasting mimicking supplement. Basically, you take it and it creates the metabolites, which are also created by the fasted state. We can put a link in the show notes to the interview we did with the founder. And if listeners are interested in that, they can also get 20% off with the code IFPodcast at MimeoHealth.com. That's M-I-M-I-O-H-E-A-L-T-H.com. But in any case, back to this study and Spermidine, oh, and the reason I bring that up is that supplement contains Spermidine as one of its four ingredients. But this study, I started reading it because I was really curious what they were going to say about Spermidine and fasting and autophagy. What I loved about it is in the beginning, they literally said what we've recently been talking about a lot in this show, which they start off by saying to date, it remains uncertain whether IF offers health benefits due to the temporary cessation of calorie intake without CR or due to a net reduction of total calorie stefacto resulting in CR. So basically, they acknowledge this ongoing debate we have about are the benefits of fasting just due to calorie restriction. And then they go in and talk about all of the health benefits of autophagy and how it's linked to longevity. And then they talk about the role they've seen in autophagy's connection to Spermidine in particular. And their research was looking at how dependent on Spermidine is autophagy and fasting. And they actually concluded that at least partly Spermidine is essentially required for the autophagy benefits from fasting, which I found really, really interesting. So their actual conclusion was our study reveals that fasting induced longevity and improved health span partially rely on Spermidine dependent, and then it's a little technical E1F5A, hypo-insuasion, and ensuing autophagy induction in multiple species. So basically, long story short, at least part of the longevity benefits from fasting are likely from the autophagy that is coming from a process that is dependent on Spermidine in multiple species. So I thought that was really, really interesting. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's so interesting. I love that you interviewed Chris at Mimeo. I also love that company. And it was so interesting talking to him about how they went through so many studies on fasting and found these three metabolites were always present when people were doing the extended fasting. And spermidine, I hadn't really heard of until Chris and Mimeo, but then I actually, once I started researching spermidine, I saw that it was actually already kind of in a step starting to be established. I think you, you were maybe telling me that there was a couple of companies at the biohacking conference that were doing like a spermidine. Was it you that was telling me that?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I actually, oh, I forgot about that. So not this most recent biohacking conference, but the one prior, so the first one I went to, I ended up hanging out with one of the guys from Spermidine Life, I think is the brand. And prior to that, I've been hearing about Spermidine, like, you know, casually, like, I feel like people were talking about it. But then when I like hung out with him for so long, I was like, oh, this is, he was really convincing. But then it wasn't until I really dived into it a little bit more, like with Michael Greger's book, and then talking with Mimeo, that I was even more intrigued. And then reading this study, I just found it so interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
you think of it? Do you think that people should take it as a supplement?

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. So some of the things they did in this study was they would basically look at organisms that couldn't create spermidine for whatever reason, and then if that happened, they wouldn't get the benefits, the autophagy-related benefits, and or they would restore impaired autophagy by supplementing spermidine. I think I need to know more. I'm very intrigued. I want to research more. I guess I would be curious about the levels in people's diets anyways. I would like to go look at that chart in that study that Dr. Greger references where they look at the spermidine content and all these different foods. It does make sense that in a way it could be sort of like a safeguard to assure that you're getting the proper levels of autophagy from your fasting. I don't see how it can hurt for sure. And after interviewing Chris at Mimeo, it just made even more sense about why that one ingredient in particular would be in their supplement. And what I like about it, maybe this is what really resonated with me, and we talked about this with Chris, but he was talking about how these are the metabolites that are created from fasting. So one of my big questions was, well, are we just creating the metabolites like a picture that looks like fasting without actually fasting? So are you getting the benefits? And he addressed that in the episode. But on top of that, this study makes it clear that this is an example where no, that actual ingredient, that actual compound is required for the fasting benefits. So yeah, it's definitely made me even more intrigued in spermidine. And I want to look into it more. And I kind of want to make my own spermidine the more I think about it. Yeah, you definitely should. I really might. Like, I really am thinking about it. I should look into it some more.

Vanessa Spina:
It also makes me think of Timeline, that other company I was telling you about. What did they do, again? With the Mytopyr, they created this, they discovered urolithin A. Oh, right, right, yeah. And it's, they're very similar, Mimeo and Timeline, in terms of how the process that they went through of doing, looking at the processes and things that happened during autophagy, and then what is happening in the body with autophagy, and then how can we sort of replicate that. It's very similar to the process that Mimeo went through, where they went through all these studies and then started finding these commonalities. I think it's interesting, too, to supplement. It's so hard to, it's like the biggest pain point with the longevity industry in supplement. It's so hard to actually know if anything that you take increases your longevity because you won't know until, you know, until the end of your life, and you'll never actually

Melanie Avalon:
There's no control. There's literally.

Vanessa Spina:
no control. What I found really interesting, this is one of the things I was really challenging their CMO. I interviewed their chief medical officer who's done most of their research. This was just last week on Thursday. I was like, how can people tell that what you are creating with this supplement does anything for anyone if we can't actually tell? It's like, I've got all this NAD, all this different NMN, all these things in my fridge. I'm like, I don't take a lot of them because I just don't know. I don't know if any of them are worth taking and then you have to take something for the rest of your life and you'll never know. I was really challenging him on that. He said that they are actually creating a test where people are going to be able to check their mitochondria and check the health and function of their mitochondria. They will actually be able to take, for example, with Mitopur, the year less than eight works on the mitochondria and activates mitophagy, the autophagy of mitochondria. You can actually take it and see. They're working with this new company called MiScreen. They were at the conference, actually. Yeah, so MiScreen. They're doing a version of biological age, but based on your mitochondria. There's another company as well that he mentioned to me that is working on something that people will be able to test just at home and be able to get some feedback and markers. I think it's really going to change the supplement industry when it comes to longevity because people will be able to take things, say, for three months, four months, and then test and see if it's actually doing anything for you because you can do lots of RCTs and everything. And that helps show results. There is so much psychological effect to taking these supplements. What do you think of longevity supplements?

Melanie Avalon:
I, it's really interesting because it's basically a lot of what I do is, you know, the longevity sphere. I get really intrigued when there is a lot of research that makes sense surrounding mechanisms. I'm just going, okay, so not to go on like a complete tangent, but so like let's look at the different longevity related supplements. So the OG is probably rapamycin. I think that one does seem to be probably the most likely or vetted longevity supplement. I, I'm sad that it is behind so many barriers. I understand why because it's a drug and it's mostly, you know, created for immune type conditions. Does it relate to cancer? But basically though, and the reason I find it really likely for longevity is I think it's the only compound I think that has been shown in every single species that it's been tested to extend lifespan. You were talking about how, you know, with, with a human, you can't know if you would have lived any longer or shorter. So there's no control, you know, but when we do animal studies, that's when they can control for that a little bit because they can basically make, you know, identical, you know, yeast strains or rats and put them in completely identical situations and really control it and see what the difference is. So rapamycin seems to be the one that consistently extends lifespan in all species. Kind of like when it comes to dietary interventions, calorie restriction is the one thing that seems to always extend lifespan. But then you move on to things like resveratrol and it was really seen as this great longevity supplement. And then there was a lot of scrutiny around how the studies were conducted and they say that, you know, the majority of the findings were based on this one faulty study. You know, moving beyond that, we have now the world of like NMN and NAD. There's a lot of debate around NMN, NR, NAD levels. And we know just how important NAD is and metabolic health and functioning and everything. And we know that it's depleted by things like aging and stress and sickness. Like we see that. So to me, it just makes sense that boosting NAD levels would have this effect. And I know people agree and disagree with that. I know for me personally, like I use historically, I was using NAD injections. I wasn't, I was not liking how they felt. They did not feel good to me. Just like in the moment, they made me feel quite not well. And I was like, I don't know if I want to keep, because it was really expensive too. And I was like, I don't know if I want to keep spending all this money for, to not feel well and just to, you know, think that I'm doing something good. But then I found, or actually they reached out to me, but I found any NAD patches by a company called Ion Layer and I am obsessed and I feel a difference. So I use one, I use one after, because I typically go out once a week socially and I try to really control my wine choices and things like that. Sometimes it's, sometimes I drink, you know, drinks. I are not dry from wines and, you know, more than I probably should. If I wear a patch the next day, that night and or the next day, major game difference just in how I feel. And so that to me feels like it's really doing something. And this is the Ion Layer NAD patch. And so I can really see how it just makes sense to me that supporting NAD levels long-term would really be supporting longevity. And if listeners are interested in those patches, again, I am obsessed. You can go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, I O N L A Y E R and use the coupon code MelanieAvalon for $100 off. But beyond that, so all of these new supplements, so Spermini, for example, like I see there's so many good studies on it and longevity and, you know, like this one that we just looked at is so fascinating. The takeaway is for humans, you are never going to know how long you would have lived with different dietary supplemental interventions. You just won't know. I mean, unless. trying to think of how you would know. I know now we have like virtual twin studies type things where you know they basically make a computer model virtual twin version of yourself and see what would happen. So technology and AI and stuff are advancing towards that but in the end you're really not going to know. So how can you know that what you're doing is actually benefiting you? And I do like all of these different biological age tests. I think they are good markers of how things are affecting you. The issue is they're all so different and they're all looking at different markers. And like for example I recently just tried two completely different companies for biological age tests. Like one was looking at DNA methylation. I think they were both looking at DNA methylation which I was excited about. What was interesting was they both provided panels of biological age and all that and I got different scores and different aging and I took them both around the same time on similar markers with the exception of I thought this was exciting. They both measured my telomeres and that was what I did the best in on both of them. So that was exciting because people often say that telomeres are one of the primary indicators of longevity status even though they do change very quickly. But basically they're kind of like the shoe caps on the end of if you think of like you're tying your shoes like the little caps at the end and they get shorter as you age. And so the length of your telomeres has been linked to longevity. So like for example on those tests I did I got really good scores on that. So and then you were mentioning Vanessa with the mitopure how they are testing looking at the actual mitochondrial function. And so and then on top of that I'm just all the issues. On top of that there's the issue of say you start taking a supplement. It's really hard to just change one thing in your life consistently. Things are changing all the time. So controlling for that is another another aspect. I think all you can do is like there's a lot of data out there. I will find and put in the show notes links for the different biological tests that I aged tests I did recently. All of that said I think what people can do is you know try if they're interested try the things that have the most data behind them and monitor your markers. And I use inside tracker ongoing. They have a biological age test but it is it's all like blood panel type stuff. But you can get I really think you can get a good consistent look at your metabolic health if you're regularly testing. I don't I mean knock on wood. I'm really hesitant to say this because I could always be wrong but I don't think it would hurt to to try these different compounds especially because they have to go through so much you know bedding and and things like that and you know safety studies. It might hurt your wallet and not be doing anything. I don't know. I'm really I'm really excited by it and passionate about it and I do agree that there's a lot of nebulousness. So that was long. Do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I love everything that you shared, you know, and I think for me, the bottom line when it comes to all the research that you mentioned is, you know, you, a lot of these things we see extends lifespan by, you know, multiple factors when it comes to like yeast, these small, what are they called that Mimiya was using, was testing on. They're not used? Timeline was also testing, they're called, it's like these small. It's not small.

Melanie Avalon:
The elegance, is it?

Vanessa Spina:
C. elegans. Yeah, great. Thank you. Yeah, both Mimeo and Timeline were testing on C. elegans, which apparently make really good test subjects for longevity and lifespan testing. And then when they move on to, you know, you might see lifespan quadruple in those smaller species, and then you move on to more complex species like monkeys, and you see it helps them to extend lifespan maybe a little bit. But then I think in humans, what it really does for us, it definitely can't reverse age, like it's not possible to reverse age unless someone is using like a time machine or something, because you basically can't go back in time, like you can just stop, you can slow the aging process. And I think for humans, the best we can hope for and expect for is that we would live longer by avoiding a lot of the chronic non-infectious disease that people die from these days. So I think all these supplements can help with that. I think a lot of like basic fundamental things too, like exercise and, you know, really nutrient dense, proper diet, like those kinds of things can really help. And then there's all those other layers that you can add on. And then if you're interested in these kinds of supplements, I think that these tests are coming soon. I think they're on the horizon where if you're someone like me and you don't want to just take something and spend money on it for the rest of your life, hoping that it'll do something, you can actually test it. And that's when I think I'll become a lot more interested in all of this stuff. And there are some tests already for biological age, but I think for mitochondrial health, that will be really exciting. And then there's so much you can do for mitochondrial health already with exercise, but to see if there's something that can level you up even more to actually be able to test for it. I think that's going to be just a game changer.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, just one comment on that about reversing aging. I know we can't right now. I am really excited or intrigued about that potential. Like I wonder if that is the future. And I know that's what David Sinclair talks about a lot in his book Lifespan. Dr. Walter Longo will talk about it. Basically, it's the idea that we know, like in theory, we should be able to because in theory, we know we can have cells that are reset to the ultimate state of youth because we have embryos. So we can have inside of us a cell that is completely young. So in theory, the cells should be able to somehow revert back to that state. I feel like that's like the ultimate future of longevity. I'm really intrigued by it. I don't know if it'll ever happen and or if it'll happen. I don't know. We'll see. But basically, one of the big questions out there, like will we reach escape velocity or like how long will you need to live to reach the state where the anti-aging technology will advance so fast or exponentially or to the point where it'll always stay above where the aging cap is now, if that makes sense. I'm super curious about it, which Vanessa, have we talked about this? This is the question I ask a lot of my guests when they come on. Have I asked you this? Would you want

Vanessa Spina:
to live forever. I'm trying to think if you asked me that when I came on your podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think I, I don't think I did. I typically ask it to the, like, like the longos and the Sinclair's and all of them.

Vanessa Spina:
make sense. That's their specialty. And a lot of them have probably considered it, whether or not they would. I think about it a lot. Part of me wouldn't, and part of me would. It depends what I think about. There's a piece that I get from knowing that at some point, I won't exist anymore. But there's also the thought of Luca and Damien and Pete and my family and friends and how much I love them. And the thought of maybe being able to... Something that might happen in our timeline is being able to be uploaded to some kind of technology or singularity merging with technology in some way where you mentally would be living forever, existing forever. Forever seems like a long time, but maybe just extending lifespan as much as possible. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny because I literally, I always thought everybody wanted to live forever. It's not even a question to me. The longevity people that I ask, like I said, the David Sinclair type people and like Saria Young and Walter Longo, they all want to live forever. But I feel like everybody else doesn't really. Most people seem to not want to. I do. Yeah. I just want to, yeah, there's so much I want to do and keep doing. And this is all assuming that health span would be equivalent to lifespan. So I think a lot of people think living forever, they think, oh, well, I'll be living old and decrepit and can't move. I would not want that. So this would be assuming that I'm living forever in a state of vitality that I would want for sure. I know what you mean, though, about something a little bit comforting, about the idea of not non-existing, at least for me.

Vanessa Spina:
forever eternity is long so yeah at some point having an end I don't know it's like is there in either or or can it be like eternity but I can go when I want to kind of thing

Melanie Avalon:
Maybe. I mean, the way I would combat the attorney being a long time is... I mean, the nice thing about there being an end is it adds a sense of urgency to doing what you want to do because time is short. If it was longer, I'd be like, oh, I have more time to do everything I want to do. And then maybe I could take like some breaks. Yeah. Deep esoteric thoughts. But I definitely, I definitely did. Like that was a moment for me because I literally thought everybody wanted to live forever. And I really, I've quickly realized that most people do not want to.

Vanessa Spina:
Ask me on a different day, you know, like a day that you're having a super blissful existence. You might be like, yeah, I want this forever. And like a bad day, you're like, yeah, I think I'm good. But I think it's hard for us to accept death like within our lifespan. It sometimes seems too short to me, especially the older I get. I'm like, man, it seems short, but it's just having such a wonderful time in life. And it also depends how you're feeling. And I think there's something I've always thought there's something about aging, especially towards the end, where it's almost like a way to make it easier to leave, you know, because if we stayed in like our prime, our whole lives up until the day we died, it would be pretty sad to suddenly just no longer exist. But when your body starts to get a bit worn out and frail, and you're not able to do all the fun things anymore, it's like, okay, maybe we had a good run.

Melanie Avalon:
You know, that, that is true. And like, like I said, it goes back to the, I think when people cure that question, they think it, they think of it in the context of our current state of aging, which obviously makes sense because that would be the practical interpretation of it. Yeah. I'm really curious to see the future of all of this. I don't think the answer is going to, I don't know. I don't think the answer is going to be in any of these compounds. Like I think these compounds just promote longevity. But if we were to actually reverse or stop aging, I don't know what that would, you know, entail, but I guess we'll see. What I don't like, what creeps me out, because you're talking about uploading your consciousness to some other, you know, thing that, that, that I'm okay with. Well, the thing I don't like is something that I think practically actually is happening right now. And it's, it's like this idea of uploading, basically creating, they're, they're doing this thing where they want to like create simulated versions of people. So basically you upload like the entire data of a person to this avatar. So then like, oh, little kids can talk to their grandfather. That's no longer with them. Like that just seems weird to me. Because it's like, I don't know that that's weird to me. It's like an AI avatar type thing.

Vanessa Spina:
I saw something like that. I opened Instagram and it was like this mother, they created this virtual version of her son who had died. It upset me so much that I was like, I had to just turn off my phone and go to bed. I was just like, okay, that was enough on the internet today for the day. Some things are just a little too unnatural. Things we probably shouldn't be messing with.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like the you know, the phrase uncanny valley. It's the idea that when something is really, really close to I don't know if it just applies to humans, I think it's okay. So it's basically it's a hypothesized psychological and aesthetic relation between an object's degree of resemblance to a human being and the emotional response to the object. That's why I hate wax figures. Yeah, it has to do with basically like how similar something like a wax figure or a robot is to real life. But if it's like slightly off and you have this like eerie unsettling feeling, that's uncanny valley. There's literally a word. There's actually like a word for it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I've never understood why I hate wax museums and wax figures so much. That just explained it for me, so thank you. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
uncanny valley. So it'll be curious, it'll be interesting to see if we, you know, get past that. Like if the technology will actually, I don't know, crawl out of the valley, like actually be a perfect replica. Because if it's not, then it's a problem. But yeah, I would not want a virtual, kind of similar to the people who get like the clones of their pets. That would be weird for me too. Have you seen that before?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's I had I had not seen it, but that sounds horrible.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know that's been done like people have had a pet and then they it dies and they clone it So then they have the pet again

Vanessa Spina:
It's not a weird concept. Yeah, I mean, I can understand. It's hard, you know, to let go of things. And that's why I got so upset by that video of, you know, the mom with the kid that was recreated virtually. Because I was like, that's something I would probably do if I lost a kid. So like, that's so horrible. But anyway, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, should we answer one more question? Yes. All right, so we have a question from Nicole and this was on Facebook and she says, I work from 7 .45 a .m. until 2 .30. No break and I'm constantly moving. I enjoy fasting during that time, but I'm having a hard time getting two protein-rich meals in before bed at 10. I absolutely would hate to eat before work as I feel like I'll be starving before the end of work. What is the best thing to do with this work schedule? It's a Monday through Friday schedule. Okay, do you have thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so I love the fasting from 7 45 to 2 30 because when I'm working, I also love fasting, especially when I'm moving around a lot, getting a lot done. So I love that you're enjoying fasting during that time. So I think from two 30 to 10, you have a lot of time to get two protein rich meals in if you're finding it hard in terms of maybe the size, just focus on getting 30 grams of protein at two meals. That's all you really need. If you're trying to get into meals, 30 grams, you can do in one protein shake. So just one scoop of whey protein isolate with some almond milk, ice, you know, whatever else you want to throw in there, you're going to get 30 grams of protein. And that's the minimum you need, you know, to hit that leucine threshold to initiate muscle protein synthesis. So if you, if a protein shake helps you, it takes out at least one of those meals. And then you can focus on, you know, with the other meal, you know, just eating. I'm not sure if you like to eat just animal based proteins or, you know, dairy or whatever it is, like a mixed meal with chicken breast and yogurt or cheese or whatever it is, you, however it is that you like to get your protein in, if you're having steak and then maybe some dessert that has some protein in, you should be able to hit 30 grams again with that other meal pretty easily. So I think two 30 to 10 is like a great amount of time for two meals. Like that sounds very similar to the way that I eat a lot of days getting, you know, two meals in, in my fasting, in my eating window, three meals is a lot, unless I'm doing a much longer eating window. But for an eating window of about seven and a half hours or 10 hours there, I mean, eight hours there, uh, you should, shouldn't be too hard if you just focus on, like I said, 30 grams of protein. You don't have to eat 50 grams of protein or a hundred grams of protein at each of your meals, you just want to hit at least 30 grams and do that twice. So hopefully that, that should help. And 30 grams, you can easily achieve with meals that I mentioned there, just having you know, one or two protein sources in your meal or, you know, adding in a protein shake, or I like to do my first meal of the day is usually high protein, low fat, plain yogurt with some protein powder in it and some freeze dried strawberries. I don't know why the texture combination just tastes so good. And it's a huge amount of protein. I think I get 60 or 70 grams of protein from that meal. And it still feels light enough that I can work out after that and not feel like I've had a massive meal. So lots of different options, I think. And don't worry about having to eat so much protein. I think you can probably hit it with less than what you're maybe imagining. That's my take on it. What do you think, Mani? So that's.

Melanie Avalon:
That's really interesting. So you think that's enough protein if they just had 60 grams in a day?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, if you initiate muscle protein synthesis twice, you're probably doing fine. If you're sticking to two meals a day, I would just hit at least 30 grams. You can definitely eat more than that. I'm not saying just have 60 grams for the day. I'm saying just make sure you hit a 30 gram minimum. If that's all you can have, you'll probably be fine in terms of your muscle mass, but eating more of that will definitely help if your goals are to put on more lean mass. But the minimum would be 30 grams at each of those meals. So you could do that, like I was saying, with a protein shake. But depending what your goals are, it sounds like you want to stick to two meals. I wouldn't worry about having to eat tons and tons and tons of protein beyond that because 30 grams does give you about three grams of leucine. So you're triggering muscle protein synthesis twice. I mean, you could add in a third meal of another, like if you have two regular meals in a protein shake, you could add that in. But I guess you don't, you kind of have to go by your hunger to and like what feels good to you. Okay. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
interesting. I would suggest getting a little bit more, if you're just having two meals, I would be a little nervous with just 60 grams of protein a day. So I would probably, and for some people, I mean, I know it works for some people. I think Dr. Gabrielle Lyon recommends like 1 .2 to 1 .5 grams of protein daily per kilogram, which I'd have to do some conversions, but I think that comes up comes out to a little bit more. So I guess the way I guess what's interesting is I see I see it as two, two equations that need to be fulfilled. One would be the 30 grams at one time, and then one would be the total amount for the whole day. For me, I like a little bit more than that. But the nice thing is because I think people feel like it's a really, you know, it can be overwhelming to get enough protein. But if you think about it, if you have just a chicken breast, I think what I think a lot of the issues is pairing what you're pairing the protein with and just making the meal to say shading so it's, you know, too much to eat seemingly. But if you strip it down to the basics, like a chicken breast by itself, just, you know, like a decent sized chicken breast, you know, you're probably going to get over, you know, over 50 grams of protein in that probably in that chicken breast, right? Let me let me check.

Vanessa Spina:
So 1 .2 grams per kilo is a great place for sedentary individuals and that's the range that I also recommend based on the work of Dr. Stu Phillips at McMaster. So 1 .2 grams per kg for sedentary, 1 .6 grams per kg for more active individuals up to 2 .2 grams per kg for athletes. And 1 .2, if someone's at like 60 kilograms, that's like 72 grams of protein for the day. So if you do two meals where you're getting at least 30 grams of protein, you're pretty close to that. Like that's 60 grams. You're like eat five more grams of protein at each meal, like 35 grams around that. Like I was just saying 30 as a floor.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So because if a person's like, I hate all the conversions. So if a person's like 120 pounds, that's 54 kilograms. So that would be like, okay, 64. Okay. Yeah. So 64 grams. Yeah. And then if, so if you're, if you're going a little bit higher, like 1 .5 would be 81.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like 1 .6. Some people say 1 .5. If someone is doing resistance training, if they're more sedentary and not doing resistance training, then 1 .2 for more sedentary adults is a recommendation from the top experts on protein. So Dr. Gabrielle Lionstein is really 30 grams of protein per meal. If you're having three or four meals in a day, don't do like 20 grams, 20 grams, 40 grams, because then you're not going to initiate muscle protein synthesis at those first two meals, and then you will at the last one. It's like do 30, 30, 30. If you're not having 30, you want to get 30 and then 30, and then add whatever else you want on top of that, but just make sure to get at least 30. That's the floor. Most people who are not lifting weights will be fine at 1 .2, which is somewhere between 60 to 70 grams for a lot of people. That's actually also the number on keto diets to help people get into fat burning. But if you are someone whose goal is to build muscle, you probably need closer to 1 .6 to 2 .2 grams per kg, and that's 2 .2 grams per kg is equivalent to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay. And the nice thing is, so say you focus on the 30 grams from like the source material of the protein, if you're filling out that meal with other things, then you are, you know, adding a little bit of protein as well. But I think one of the good things that people can realize or think about is, so if you just had two, you know, decent sized chicken breasts in a day, that's, you know, pretty much fulfilling that protein need. And that's, that's not hard, like that's two, that's two chicken breasts at two different meals spread apart. I think the problem is people see it in the context of, you know, all of this other food you're eating with it. But if you, if you just start with the basics, like start, start with the protein. So this is the chicken breast and then fill out, you know, beyond that. And I'm just using chicken breasts as, you know, as an example here. But I think if you just focus on that as like the foundation and then fill out beyond that, rather than approaching it as like, what is the overall big meal? It's kind of like just a mindset perspective approach. I think people can realize it's not, it's not that unapproachable, especially in we're saying she's, she's got a pretty decent, you know, almost eight hours to get that in. And again, I know I'm, I know I'm coming from my perspective where I literally pounds and pounds and pounds of protein. So I'm like, Oh, it's easy. And I understand people come from different perspectives and it can seem more intimidating to

Vanessa Spina:
Definitely. I think that is the question I get the most when people are starting with a higher protein diet is how do I eat all the protein? Like how? So for me, things like protein shakes are a game changer because you just get a whole meal in. You get one of those. And then for people who are doing plant-based diets, who are not eating animal protein, the floor is 35 grams. So you want to shoot for 35 grams at each of your meals as the minimum. You can eat up to 100 grams of protein at your meals and you're not going to waste that protein. Your body's going to actually use it, which we now know according to my favorite study that came out in the past 12 months. So you can eat as much as you want in terms of protein. There's also a lot of research showing that the more protein you eat, the more fat burning you actually get in a lot of cases, the more lean body mass you get. So you can't really go wrong with overshooting the protein, but as long as you get a minimum of 30 grams, if you're eating animal-based proteins and 35, if you're eating plant-based proteins, then you should be totally fine in terms of preserving your lean body mass. But then again, if you want to grow it, 1 .6 is a better target and 2 .2 if you're in the gym twice a day, at least.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I love it. A good example just really quick, you know, they'll often have at those restaurants like, eat the pounder and pounder burger and win a shirt or eat this meal and win a shirt. It's like the difference between if you have the burger with the bun, which is like not that much more calories versus just the burger, you'll get so much more full eating the burger with the bun and it might even be like difficult compared to just the burger. Like, so that's what I mean by just like starting with the protein as the foundation and then intelligently filling out beyond that. It's doable. I promise it's doable. Awesome. All right. Any other questions or things before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you for that excellent question. I really enjoyed all the conversation today. Me?

Melanie Avalon:
me too, deep esoteric things about life. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is a ketogenic girl. And the show notes will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. And that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode392. Right. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time. I love all the questions as always and looking forward to our next episode. Likewise!

Melanie Avalon:
I will see you next week. Okay, see you then. Bye. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Sep 29

Episode 389: Caloric Restriction Vs. Fasting, Triggering Protein Muscle Synthesis, HDAC Inhibition, Autophagy, mTor, Food Cravings, Avocados, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 389 0f The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Impact of Intermittent Fasting and/or Caloric Restriction on Aging-Related Outcomes in Adults: A Scoping Review of Randomized Controlled Trials

Listener Q&A: Rebeca - Avocados, avocados, avocados

Listener Q&A: Shari - If I want more muscle definition, should I eat shortly after my weight lifting session or complete my 16 hour fast?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 389 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 389 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? Doing great. How are you? I am good. I had the moment of all moments. You might have seen it on my Instagram, but I saw Adina Menzel live. Do you know her? I don't. She's the original. Do you know Wicked?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, the musical. That was really popular.

Melanie Avalon:
She's the original alphabet and she's Elsa and let it end frozen. Oh, you must have loved that. She's saying, let it go, like live. And the whole audience was singing along and it was the most magical thing. My life is complete. I've been waiting two decades for this moment or a decade for that moment and two decades for the wicked moment. So that's amazing. Yeah. I'm like on cloud nine. And I also yesterday interviewed, very excited Dr. Naomi Parrella. She is the chief medical officer at the zero app, which have you ever used the zero app, the fasting app?

Vanessa Spina:
I have I remember using it when I was doing extended fasts I I used it a few times or more than a few times I used it regularly when I used to do inner extended fasting

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, how long ago was that?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, before, I guess like before I had Luca, so like maybe 2018, 2019, 2020, I was doing a lot of extended fasting, but I, I really don't use it at all anymore because I'm not as much kind of stopped doing that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so that's also when I first used it was interesting. So I hadn't revisited it until prepping to interview her and it's changed a lot. Like it has a lot more features. It's really cool for like streaks and habit tracking and things like that with the calendar system and has a ton of resources. So like I opened it and on the homepage was a video with Peter Attia who apparently worked with them in the past. I was like, Oh my goodness. But it's super cool. I feel like I should be recommending it more, especially for people who are struggling in the beginning to stick to a fasting schedule or like get into, you know, really make it stick. It seems like a really, really great tool and resource for that, especially because we know, and I've talked about this on the show before, like dieting, for example, just the very act of monitoring what you're eating, like not even changing what you're eating, just monitoring what you're eating. It tends to create dietary change. Like there's something very powerful to tracking and accountability. So I think it'd be really helpful for people. And then she said she actually uses it in a, her own way as well, which is if she's wants to cut out a certain sort of food, like fast from like sugar or a certain treat, she'll use it that way. Um, which is really kind of smart, which I've actually, now I'm just thinking of all the ways I could use this app in the past. I've used an app where I was like, I'm not going to text this person. And it like, do you know how long you've gone? So maybe not for that reason. Well, yeah, you could, you could fast from people. Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, it's super cool. And listeners can get it. I guess I didn't even really see what it does. It tracks your fasting, but oh, and she said that the, the algorithm is very sophisticated and works with your personal data, like your, you know, your age and your sex, and then it integrates with your wearables and can take in data with the information that you tell it regarding your meals and such. And then from that, it generates when it thinks you're in certain fat burning modes based on the time and stuff like that. So I asked her about like, you know, the accuracy and she said there's, you know, a lot of, like they have a lot of science behind it. And so it was really, it was really cool. And we also, just as a side note, listeners, that episode will come out in a few episodes. And we went into a deep dive into ozimpic and semi-glutide. So I thought that was like really cool because her specialty is actually weight loss. That's like what she does. She is the medical director at Rush center for weight loss, actually. And so that's her specialty. So yeah, maybe we could actually talk about our updated thoughts on ozimpic and such, but in any case, before that, for listeners, you can go to ifpodcast.com/zero, and that will give you a free seven day trial to the plus version. And then it's always free regardless. So you can keep it for free or pay for the plus version. Yeah, it was super, super cool. So what is new in your life?

Vanessa Spina:
Just doing so much podcasting right now. I I have been recording four to five episodes a week I'm just really pumped by all the amazing people. I'm getting to talk to you and the podcast is just doing amazing and it's just like it's kind of a Lot right now doing so many interviews because it as you know for each one You know, you have to prepare quite a bit whether it's like reading the person's book or you know Reading at least a dozen studies or so that they've authored. So I feel like I'm constantly Shifting gears and I've got so many tabs on my computer open of different Different studies, but it's amazing. I mean I was just saying to Pete we had a date night because we had our eighth wedding anniversary On Saturday Oh anniversary. Thank you. We did a mini putt this amazing new place in the city That's kind of like Las Vegas, but it doesn't have all the casino the gambling It's just like a really fun place and we did mini putt, which is what we did on one of our first dates But we were talking at dinner and I was like, I just feel so blessed that I get to do what I love Every single day and I always dreamed when I was younger of being in a position where I would get to Read books and synthesize information and share it. I don't know why I've always wanted to do that and I find that's what exactly what i'm doing Every day and it's it's so rewarding and so fulfilling. I'm interviewing. Have you heard of timeline nutrition? No They are this incredible swiss company that has done Over a decade of research and they discovered this molecule. You've probably heard of urolithin a Yeah, they discovered it and it it generates mitophagy it generates autophagy, but mitophagy specifically the mitochondrial autophagy And i'm interviewing their chief medical officer. That's anurag sing the day after tomorrow. So i'm really deep in mitophagy Research and and just all the stuff that they've been doing. It's really amazing. I love whenever a company is research first, you know, they put all their time and energy into research and doing all the clinical trials and Coming up with things that can really improve people's lives and I felt the same way about Mimeo who you recently got to To interview is companies that are research first like that research forward and they're creating things That are related to fasting that benefit you Or that generate benefits similar to fasting You know, and I think there's a lot of interest in that at the moment just like there isn't, you know the zero app

Melanie Avalon:
I as well feel so, so grateful about the podcasting. I didn't have that as specific of an acute. Wait, how old were you when you decided you wanted to do that? Read books and I mean, it was.

Vanessa Spina:
definitely was always knew that I wanted to do something involving books. Like it was more like a writing a book, which as you know I ended up doing. But although I did enjoy that, I way more enjoy reading, synthesizing, and sharing. I don't know why, but it was, I think it was in my early 20s. Like when I was in university and I started to think about doing a career and I was like, I need to do something where I can read stuff and then synthesize the key points and share it. And I was like, I need to become a professional speaker. So I thought, I thought that's what I should do, you know, because there's people who do that. Like people like Brian Tracy and Tony Robbins, like these were my heroes. I was like, I need to do that. So I did do that initially right after I left school, but podcasting is like a way better form, way better method for it. But yeah, in my early 20s, I kind of realized that. And so yeah, the fact that it's, it's what I get to do every day is amazing. Even no matter how busy it gets, and I'm sure you can relate, it's always so satisfying because you know you're doing what you were meant to be doing or what you're skilled or talents or, you know, you're kind of utilizing all of your skills and talents in a way living up to your full potential. I guess that's how it feels like.

Melanie Avalon:
I couldn't agree more. I guess I always wanted to have a show, so kind of similar. And then growing up, in high school, I was always like, I don't know if this was YouTube, but I was always the study guide girl. I made the study guides. I feel like that kind of relates to this, taking in all the information and, like you're saying, synthesizing. I think my favorite thing is just getting to learn these completely different but interrelated topics and do a deep dive into them. It's literally almost every day. So it's just constant learning.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And I, I always love, I don't know if it's Sun Tzu said, if you do what you love, you'll never work a job in your life. Yeah. A day in your life, a day in your life. And I, I also discovered that quote when I was in university and I was like, you know, I would just want to end up doing something that I love. And I, this definitely never feels like work. Although there are times where I feel exhausted mentally, especially recently feeling a little tired mentally, but I never feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm doing what I love and podcasting. I always feel like I get into the flow with most guests with, I would say with over 90% of the guests, I feel like I get into a flow state with them and that's the best. Like, yeah, I'm not surprised you feel that way too.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I literally had a moment, I think yesterday, I just sat in my car and I was like, I'm so grateful. I get to just learn all this stuff, like just constantly new things.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I think about you sometimes with, when I see the different episodes that you come out with, because your podcast is more broadly like on biohacking, it's less focused on one thing. So you really have a nice like wide variety of different topics that you talk about on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. And I always think when I see a new episode come out, I'm like, oh, she must have loved doing that one. No, because I can imagine you like preparing for it and really enjoying that person's book or yeah, that's fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's really great. We we share that in common. I love that so much. Oh Man, okay. Well speaking of studies Yeah, speaking of studies So I was looking up to see if there were any you know Cool fun new studies out about intermittent fasting I found for this episode and next episode some New reviews I thought we could talk about so the study for today it's called Impact Of Intermittent Fasting And Or Caloric Restriction On Aging Related Outcomes And Adults A Scoping Review Of Randomized Controlled Trials. So this study looks at 30 articles and 12 of them were about intermittent fasting 10 were about calorie restriction and 8 were combined and what they were looking at in general was to look at the Cardiometabolic cancer and Neurocognitive outcome differences between both of those and adults questions they were looking to ask were they wanted to know basically what were the Like within the study the different effects of those different outcomes and adults They wanted to know what were the differences between those and these different interventions or effects on health and what was interesting about it was I Thought it was going to find more Specific like I thought was gonna say that intermittent fasting was better for this and CR was better for this but honestly the takeaway about everything was they were pretty similar so basically, they were equivalently effective for all three of those outcomes and really the only Main difference was because they were also in addition to that They're both associated with weight loss which seemed to play a role and in all those health outcomes But I have tended to report greater adherence compared to calorie restriction So the long story short takeaway was that both of these have these incredible outcomes for our heart for cancer and our brain and they are Likely in part active acting through weight loss for that but intermittent fasting just seems to be more Doable so people adhere to it better has more long-term sustainability If you like I can go into some of the like specific things They found I don't know if I should go that route or talk a little bit about IF versus CR Do you have thoughts Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, it's, it's, if there's anything specific you want to share, I found, you know, I wasn't surprised by the findings. This is something that I've, I always say is kind of funny to me because it's the whole reason why intermittent fasting exploded worldwide was because people found out that they could do caloric restriction without feeling like they were on a diet. That's really the whole thing. And then, and then people now critique it and say, well, it's the same as caloric restriction. Right. But that's the whole reason people got excited about it in the first place. And so the findings were not surprising to me because it is very, the results, the outcomes are equivalent between caloric restriction, intermittent fasting. I think that as the, so I'm interviewing a guest who actually specifically studied this in a couple of weeks. And it's really interesting. This topic, like comparing them. Yeah. He studied specifically, he got his PhD studying if there is a difference between intermittent fasting and caloric restriction. And it's yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of times like the studies don't equate the calories between the groups when that happens. But usually what happens spontaneously, people eat less when they're doing intermittent fasting, even then when they're doing caloric restriction. And it's like you said, the main takeaway from this review of the review, review of the men analysis is that it is more tolerable and people tend to stick with it more and are more successful with it. And there's something about just giving yourself this framework of being in a facet state, having a facet window for however long that is, that just works so well for people because you, you have this, it's like a psychological parameter around when you should be eating and when you shouldn't. And then you kind of go on autopilot after a while and you're just like, this is when I eat and this is when I don't eat. And when you have an open window all day, I don't know about other people are like this, but a lot of time there's that decision-making around like, should I eat now? Should I eat later? Should I have snack now? Or, and you almost sometimes feel hungrier just because you opened your eating window and you, you know, psychologically that you can eat. So it's such an effective tool for so many reasons. And like you said, a lot of the main cardio metabolic benefits, insulin sensitivity, improvement, et cetera, comes from the fat lost on either intermittent fasting or caloric restriction, intermittent fasting being a really effective form of caloric restriction.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny. So yesterday when I was interviewing Dr. Perilla at the end, we were talking about if we could create any study, what would we create? And I said I would like to see more studies comparing intermittent fasting to calorie restriction and seeing what are the mechanisms there. So that's so cool. How did you find that guy?

Vanessa Spina:
I found him through Dr. Kurt Escobar, who's the PhD on autophagy that I recently interviewed. He's really interesting because he's a super sharp guy, but he's on this mission to correct a lot of the myths that are spread on the internet about autophagy and how it works. And he really thinks that a lot of people embellish or exaggerate some of the findings in studies because it gets, I don't know, he doesn't talk about this exactly, but I think it, he says it's usually because they want to sell you products or whatever. So they get your attention by embellishing or exaggerating what was found in a study and then they're able to get your attention so they can sell you products. That's his thing. And I understand where he's coming from. He's trying to set the record straight on what the truth about autophagy really is, like how much autophagy can you really get from different protocols? And I recently had him on the show and he interviewed this PhD who studied fasting and caloric restriction and compared it. And he believes that there is really no difference that looking at, I think he did a meta analysis looking at intermittent fasting compared with caloric restriction. And they found that ultimately if you equate calories exactly between the two, you're going to get the same results in terms of fat loss. If there's a caloric deficit, which there would be from caloric restriction, improvements in insulin sensitivity usually come from that and all the other associated benefits also come from that. But Dr. Sachin Panda, he did a lot of research comparing the two and he definitely found in his research that there were additional benefits from intermittent fasting. And one of the things that I tend to think about is ketones, right? If you get into ketosis, you're getting the signaling benefits of ketones. So I asked Dr. Kurt Escobar, is there a difference in autophagy between someone who fasts, for example, doing a 16, eight fasting period and an eight hour eating window with someone who does eats the same amount of calories in that 24 hour period? Is the autophagy the same? And he said, you might have a slightly higher increase towards the end of the fasting window, like right before you break your fast. And that's also where you would start to see that elevation in ketones, et cetera. But he said, in terms of autophagy, if you take both, it's a washout. They both will end up giving you the same amount of autophagy. But I do think that there is some benefits to the elevation of ketones. And he also talked about the timing. If you're measuring things in a study, when are you doing the measuring? Are you doing it during the fasting window? If you're doing it right before someone breaks their fast, there's probably going to be elevation in certain markers and autophagy proteins that you wouldn't see at other times of the day.

Melanie Avalon:
curious about, did he say anything about the difference in muscle preservation? Like a bolus of protein after a fasted state compared to small amounts of protein?

Vanessa Spina:
No, we didn't talk about that. We were talking more about exercise and fasting and caloric restriction. And he was saying basically that the autophagy is generated when you have an energetic crisis at the cellular level. And that usually happens through exercise, but it doesn't have to be fasted exercise. It just happens from exercise because exercise is when you create that intense demand for ATP. And that creates an energetic crisis for the cell. Whereas fasting, and this is something I've been talking about with a lot of scientists recently, fasting was believed to be doing that via this AMPK, PGC1 alpha axis, because they found that in mice. But then they recently found that that pathway doesn't exist in humans, which I think I was telling you about last week. So it doesn't mean that it's not there. It's just that exact pathway is not there as it is in rodents. So some things are there. As you know, some things you'll find in rodents just are not applicable to humans. But yeah, we didn't specifically talk about protein. And I think if I would have asked him that, he would have said he wasn't an expert in that area.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because that's something I'm super curious about. I'm really, really curious about this question. I'm a bit haunted by it. In this review, the things they found that were similar between IF and CR, so they found that they better maintain blood glucose levels and lipid metabolism, so that's dealing with fats in the body, that they induce neurotrophic and autophagy responses, that they increase the production of metabolites like ketones and BDNF, that they may promote reductions in oxidative stress and inflammation. So those were the main things they were talking about as being similar. What was interesting about the review was they would look at different markers sometimes to draw similar conclusions. So for example, with managing cardiovascular risk factors, they were saying that IF showed positive effects on blood lipids and glucose metabolism, and then specifically CR reduced LDL cholesterol and the total cholesterol HDL ratio. So what's interesting to me is it's different. They're not looking at the exact same thing when they're making the comparison. They did both show reductions in oxidative stress and inflammation, as well as lower levels of CRP for both. Yeah, I just really want to know if it's, I don't know why I want to know so bad, but I really want to know. It kind of reminds me of, weren't we talking about something recently where, or now am I thinking of a podcast I was listening to? I'm having a memory of talking about something where we thought it was the same pathway, but it was actually different pathways. Was that me and you, or was that me listening to a podcast?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, we were just saying that that AMPK PGC1 alpha axis was generated from fasting in mice, but it doesn't generate in humans. So in mice, fasting will generate mitochondrial biogenesis, but it doesn't in humans. The exercise does, but not the fasting. So that's why I've recently been playing around with doing a pre-workout meal. And I've been doing this now for two weeks and I've lost almost five pounds. Oh, wow. Yeah. So what I'm trying to figure out now is, is it the small meal is giving me more energy for my workout or is it the additional triggering of muscle protein synthesis from that other meal, which it could be, but it's really interesting because I didn't expect that I didn't expect that to happen at all.

Melanie Avalon:
How does that normally, because I know nothing about the general timeline of weight gain and weight loss with having a child. So like, is that the normal trajectory? I know it's all different and unique for individual people.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I'm already like at my goal because I didn't gain weight with my second pregnancy. I actually lost a little bit of weight when I was pregnant. Oh, wow. Yeah. I didn't gain weight. Like you lost weight, like my body fat, like when I was pregnant. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Like at one point, I had really had to start eating more. It was just at one point in the pregnancy, baby was obviously like extremely healthy the whole time, but I didn't put on any additional weight during this pregnancy. So when I, after the baby, I didn't, like I'm not in like a postpartum like fat loss or weight loss journey or anything. It's just more what I'm always doing, which is optimizing my body composition, like wanting to be gaining muscle. And if I can lose, like I wanted to lose like between three to five pounds, like just overall, like not related to postpartum or anything, just in general, like the same as before I had the babies. And so I was pretty close to my goal, but yeah, it was really surprising because things could be different hormonally right now. Like the hormonal landscape could be different for me. I'm like about eight months out since having the baby, but yeah, it's, it's not really related to the, to postpartum weight gain or anything like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Gotcha. No, that's super cool. I love the, um, the self experimentation. How do you, how do you monitor your changes in your body composition?

Vanessa Spina:
So I use a scale at home and then I go for pretty regular DEXA body scans. I have a place near me, so I'm going to go for one pretty soon. But it was so interesting because you always think that adding more meals is not going to make you lose fat. That seems so contradictory. But now that I understand how muscle protein synthesis works and how much ATP and energy it requires, it does kind of make sense to me. And I have had people message me this in the past that it happened to them. And I thought, oh, they must be unicorns or something. Because usually, in a way, you would think this defies thermodynamics. But it doesn't because protein is so thermogenic and you burn about 30% of the calories, somewhere between 20% to 30% of the calories that you ingest because of triggering muscle protein synthesis. I think that it could either be that that meal, like I said, is giving me more energy to work out harder, which is what I was thinking at first. But it could also be that it's just generating a higher thermic effect from building muscle, from triggering muscle protein synthesis. But yeah, really, really interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, when I first started doing my really crazy diet experimentations back in the day, and I've talked about this a lot before, but I basically went through a period of time where I was eating just, like, just lean protein. And it's because intuitively I was like, I feel like I can just eat this unlimited and probably the more I eat, the more weight I'm going to lose. And that's very not scientific, what I just said, but that was my experience. Because I just was looking at, you know, what you were talking about with, like, how thermogenic protein is and how it really does, you know, go into the pathway of often becoming muscle. And then the pathway to fat conversion is just, you know, much more longer and complicated. So basically, keep adding the protein, the lean protein, you think it can be really magical for people. Just, like, in the body composition world and muscle building. Whatever I'm thinking of with the different pathways is, I think it's from some podcast and it probably has nothing to do with what we're talking about. But if it comes to me, I will mention it.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks for sending me that study, it was interesting. It was kind of like...

Melanie Avalon:
Not a let down, but I was excited. I was like, oh, it's going to be like, show some differences. But instead, it was kind of like they do the same thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we could look at Dr. Sachin Panda's research on a future episode because he definitely, you know, really believes that there's a lot of additional benefits from time-restricted eating than, you know, versus caloric restriction. And he, you know, believes he's done the research to prove that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, I would love to because yes, I want to know the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, the last closing point on this, I would say on this study, is to me, it's an amazing way to do caloric restriction. And I do firmly believe you get some additional benefits. I do believe autophagy and fat loss could be similar, but I think you get additional benefits from ketosis because you start generating ketosis, most people, if they skip breakfast and you start getting into that state of ketogenesis around like seven, eight, nine in the morning if you've been fasting since dinner the night before. So if you delay breakfast, you're definitely getting some ketones on board and they have amazing signaling properties, I think, that are understated because they have epigenetic signaling qualities they have signaling on the HDAC inhibition, histone deacetylase inhibition, which is something that drug companies are spending billions to try and replicate. You can get that naturally from ketosis. So I think there are longevity benefits from the increase in ketones, especially towards the end of the fast, that are not being accounted for enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I mean, that's what that's what would make sense to me. It just seems like you would create a different metabolic signature, eating the same amount, like same amount of calories, but eating them throughout the day versus this fasted fed state differentiation. You just see, I don't know, just, it seems like there would be something different, but yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
We can do Dr. Panda's studies next time.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that'd be great. Should we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. All right, would you like to read the question from Rebecca?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So our first question today is from Rebecca and the subject is avocados, avocados, avocados. Hi, ladies. I love the podcast. Thank you for all that you do. I recently started working from home and I realized that I don't get a lot of steps in a day. So I now take a walk every morning to get a coffee and listen to your podcast every day. I'm slowly catching up on all the podcasts that I missed. I'm also doing a slow transition back to IF. I was doing awesome with 18 to 20 hour fasting leading up to my wedding and then a series of life events hit, new job, new city, new house, family member fell ill with cancer, on and on and on. And while I fell off the wagon, I am slowly climbing back on and getting at least 16 to 18 hour fasts in with a 20 to 23 hour one in here and there. No changes yet, boo. But I am committed for a few months. All this to ask my question. I tend to open my window with an avocado with sea salt. It is so good. And now I absolutely crave it. I wake up thinking about it and there are days I would probably eat three to five avocados a day if I could. My question is why Google tells me that it could be a deficiency in essential fatty acids, low iron, or the whole what you eat you crave based on your gut bacteria. Well, I don't think avocados are bad and having one a day isn't super stressful to me. I do think that the urgency with which I crave them is causing me to pause and wonder what is going on. Other things I crave are coffee. Admittedly, I have a pretty bad caffeine addiction that I am just not interested in changing once in a while chocolate mainly because I am trying to mostly follow paleo and allow myself some dark chocolate once in a while carbs and salt. Thanks for any tips that you might have. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
First of all, avocados, do you like avocados, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I love them and they are full of potassium, which I just had to say because it's the first thing that came to my mind.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I remember avocados were one of those foods that did not taste like what I thought it was going to taste like. Like I didn't have one for the longest time and then I have one for the first time and it was like, oh, it's like, when is this?

Vanessa Spina:
magical. It is magical. It's funny because it reminded me when I was in university, I used to also have an avocado every day and it was the first thing I ate every day. And I would actually, this is really funny, but I would slice it in half and put it in a container overnight with an open lemon that I would also slice in half. And in the morning, it would make the avocado taste lemony. And it was amazing. Also with a bit of salt on it, there was something about it that was just insanely delicious. It would get infused with the lemon and I would have that every single day. And I remember my mom, she would be like, aren't you worried about cholesterol?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man. I used to put the lemon on it too. I used to do, okay, I used to do lemon pepper and lemon on the avocado. Oh my goodness. There was something about, I remember my friend Jason was like, you have to try lemon pepper on avocado. It's going to change your life. And it did. There's something about the lemon. Oh man. You should try the lemon pepper. Like try it, try it and report back. It's going to change your life. It's going to change your life.

Vanessa Spina:
change your life? Yeah, avocados are magical.

Melanie Avalon:
I just remember though it not tasting like what I thought it was going to taste like. I think because I associate it with guacamole, which I never had, and guacamole you kind of associate with Mexican food, so I thought it was going to be like Mexican food tasting. I don't know. It was not what I thought at all.

Vanessa Spina:
texture.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man, I'm craving an avocado. So, well, first of all, I'm really sorry Rebecca about, although this is kind of an old question. So hopefully things are doing well with your family member and all of the things. And like, this is a really old question. So I really am curious where she's at now with her job and her life and where she's living and, and everything. So sending love there as far as, okay, my first initial thought, interesting that your thought was about potassium. Mine was that this is a habit craving thing, because we know, we know our brains release dopamine based on habits. So you can actually, it's really interesting. You can create dopamine releases from things that don't even really mean anything to you, but the brain likes patterns, especially if you think that these patterns are keeping it alive. So it's quite possible that, and this is just me like, just hypothesizing. It could be a lot of different things and I don't know the answer, but it could be that there were some or are some nutrients and avocados that you did really need. And since you started opening your fast with it, it was a high reward situation where you're looking forward to it. You're opening your fast with it. You're getting all these nutrients. So it's like good, good, good. It's signaling good things to your brain. And then if you repeated that and you're like opening the window with it every time, you're going to probably quickly start really looking forward to that. And I mean, I think that could happen with almost, I mean, a lot of foods. I mean, I even do it because I open my window a very specific way and I definitely, I don't say not necessarily that I crave it, but I really, that's like what I need to open my window. And I would feel very weird not doing that, which is like my cucumbers and my wine. And we do know, so she mentioned the whole eat what you crave thing with the gut based on your gut bacteria. We do know that's a thing. So basically what you eat influences your gut bacteria and then your gut bacteria crave that thing you're eating. And that can be a reason that can be actually pretty hard to get off of like the processed food train, for example, because you start cultivating these not so good gut bacteria that are craving that not so good food. And on the flip side though, when you change your diet, you can actually start slowly craving the foods you're eating, which is very, very cool. So the reason I'm thinking it's more habitual now is that if you've been doing this, I don't know how long she said this has been happening, but if it's been a substantial amount of time and you're still intensely craving the avocados, I think you probably would have received the nutrients that you were deficient in by now. I mean, I guess it's possible not. To me, it sounds more like a habit driven thing, especially because you also know you admit that you crave and have quote addictions with other things like coffee. It doesn't sound like you actually have like a habit or an addiction around chocolate, but you do talk about craving different things. Yeah, I will put my money on it being a habit thing. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
That was the first thing I thought of as well is, you know, it being a habit, sorry, the first thing I thought it was actually potassium because avocados are really high in potassium. And I'm always really interested, you know, by things like cravings, like dark chocolate. Could it be that you're low in magnesium? Like if you're craving bananas or potatoes or avocados, which are all high in potassium, could it be that you're low in potassium? You know, it's interesting to consider. I'm not saying that that's what's happening, but it's just what came to my mind because those foods are high in it. So sometimes cravings can be associated with that. I would think that it's probably just because it's so amazing because as we were talking about avocados are magical and delicious. The only thing that I would say is, and we probably won't have the same opinion on this, but if you are waking up already thinking about your meal way later in the day, that to me doesn't sound like a fun day. So, you know, and I found that like I have done intermittent fasting for so many years. And like I would say, most of the time that I was doing it, I was enjoying it because I didn't have any thoughts of food during that time. And that's what I enjoyed about it was the freedom from thinking about food or meals. And then I would usually think about food around the time, you know, that it was opening my eating window. I'm sure that's not the case for everyone, but to me that feels more, I wouldn't say white-knuckling it because it's not like you're saying in your question that all day long you're like tormented by the thought of this avocado, but it does sound like you're thinking about it quite a lot. So, you know, I don't know if maybe your eating window is too long. As we were just talking about, there's quite a bit of research showing that intermittent fasting and caloric restriction can produce the same results. So what if you had the avocado a little bit earlier in the day, and then you wouldn't be thinking about it all day. It's just something that I would maybe try experimenting with. I've tried with so many, I've experimented with so many different kinds of fasting approaches. You know, I've done, the most recent one I was doing was circadian rhythm fasting. So I was having a breakfast every day and then having dinner, and I would fast between breakfast and dinner. And I really liked that. That could be something you could try. There's having breakfast and lunch and then fasting until breakfast the next day. I tried that one, probably the one I struggled with the most, so not one that I would recommend. But that's because, not because I was hungry at dinner, but because I wanted to partake in the social activities, like with friends or with family of having that meal, which dinner usually is a more social meal. So I would just play around with your fasting window. If you're really, really wanting to do intermittent fasting, you know, I doubt it's related to a deficiency because you're eating it every day. So if you're having it every day, then you're probably not deficient in that thing. I think it's probably more maybe around the fact that you're just waking up and you're hungry and you want to have something. So you know, there's lots of different ways to approach whatever it is that your goal is. If it sounds like you would like to potentially lose some body fat and improve your body composition, you can still achieve that by having the avocado or having your first meal earlier in the day. You know, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to do an 18 or 20 hour fasting window to achieve your goal. Some people do that because they find themselves free from thinking about food all day. But if you are thinking about food all day, then I would think that would defeat the purpose.

Melanie Avalon:
I also have a wild card suggestion, this total wild card. This might just be something to try out of curiosity and experimentation, but I remember when I was going down the fasting mimicking diet rabbit hole way back in the day and contemplating doing it. That's Dr. Valter Longo's basically approach to creating the metabolites and effects of intermittent fasting, but you do it for like five days. There's the DIY version where people kind of just create a meal that, oh, wait a minute. No, because his is low. Wait, his is... Oh man. Now I'm trying to remember. I just remember there was a DIY version online where people were eating avocados, but now I'm wondering if that matches up with the macros of his diet because his diet tends to be low fat. So I'd have to revisit that. Basically, well, FMD or not. I know there's a community out there where they do this avocado fast thing. You could just try that out of curiosity. She said, I could eat three to five avocados a day if I could. You could try an experiment where you eat like five avocados for a few days. Just out of curiosity, I'm not prescribing this as like a diet to follow long term, but if you are into self experimentation, I think it could be interesting. It'd be really... It'd probably get you really deep into ketosis. I don't know what you think about that crazy idea, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, this is not a nutritional advice podcast because we are not qualified to do that. So definitely not any kind of, you know, recommendation, but it does, it does sound like something fun to do being as avocados are so delicious. And like you said, you could have three, three to five a day. You probably could have three to five a day and still get to your goal. So I totally get where you're coming from on that.

Melanie Avalon:
It reminds me of the fat fasting that people would do. It would be a way to get an extended amount of time. This is going to sound counterintuitive to everything that we've talked about, but the Dr. Valter Longo FMD thing, a lot of the benefits that he finds comes from the really low protein intake. So it could be interesting. Maybe we could do it for like a day. Maybe we could have like an avocado day and see what happens. I know Dave Asprey.

Vanessa Spina:
An avocado day would probably be fun. If you are looking for body re-composition, yes, I agree, you'd probably get into ketosis because your protein would be so low. But avocados actually have a lot of carb, so avocados are mostly carb and fat. So I wonder, probably even with five, you probably would be low enough, but I'd have to look it up to see. But you probably would be low enough just on calories, although it depends on the size of the avocados because I think some of them are like 300 calories each.

Melanie Avalon:
Now I'm craving avocados.

Vanessa Spina:
Now you wanna do an avocado date. I wanna do an avocado fast day, yeah. You should do an avocado date and report back.

Melanie Avalon:
sounds really miserable to me. I can't do the like day. I can't do like the eating throughout the day. For your OMAD.

Vanessa Spina:
to see the avocados, avocados for, you know, for, for a fun experiment, you'd probably be in ketosis, although I'm gonna see how many carbs are in an avocado.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's only like three or four. I don't think it's that much. 13.

Vanessa Spina:
Is some of that fiber? Yeah, 10 grams of fiber, but I never did like the net carbs thing. So if you're doing net, then it's probably three. If you don't do net, it's 13. So you probably could have two and being ketosis or three maybe, but that's really not your question. I know. But yeah, for body composition, ultimately you, you want to have some protein in there, I would think. So, you know, I, I think the reason avocados are so attractive, just like nuts is that, you know, they have lots of amazing nutrients in them. They have lots of energy, lots of carb and fat, and they taste so, so delicious. And that that's what makes them so magical, but they only have three grams of protein. So if you had five of them, you'd be getting like 15 grams of protein, which like you said would probably put you in ketosis, but it won't help with long-term body re-composition and gaining more lean mass.

Melanie Avalon:
I know Dave Asprey has his low protein days as well, so it'd be like a therapeutic approach type thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. I've totally been changing my thinking lately on, on protein restriction. Oh yeah. And mTOR and everything, which is like a much larger conversation, but it was really interesting because I know it's a topic that we both love. And, you know, how do you balance all of that mTOR activity with AMPK? And it really, it really is interesting because Dr. Kurt Escobar was talking about how the mTOR that people talk about in a negative light is actually dysregulated mTOR. And that's something you don't want to have a lot of, but the mTOR that you get from eating protein and doing resistance training, you never want to really avoid that. And you can get autophagy from mTOR, which is so counter to what I used to think, because once in autophagy, once the lysosome fills with enough amino acids, it actually triggers autophagy. And the metabolic autophagy that you trigger from exercise triggers that housekeeping, that cellular housekeeping autophagy. So I used to always think for autophagy, you needed AMPK, you needed fasting, you needed to avoid mTOR with protein, et cetera. But you actually get autophagy from mTOR. Like the whole system is so much more complex than we often make it seem like AMPK fasting autophagy versus mTOR protein muscle building. And you can actually get a lot of autophagy from mTOR, which the whole point of that being you don't have to do protein restriction to get autophagy and to kind of balance things out. So I've been changing my thinking on that lately, but I know it's something that a topic that we're both interested in.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah i remember when i was talking with my friend james climent who wrote a book called the switch he does a lot of studying on blood work of longevity and. He's talking about how long in tour stays on and that's what that's when i realized that i know nothing about him to her.

Vanessa Spina:
and the different mTOR complexes, mTOR1 and mTOR2.

Melanie Avalon:
He was talking about how, and I don't want to get this wrong, but basically like, and I don't know what the exact experiment he was doing or what he was testing, but he was talking about a situation where protein or whatever or something was stimulating mTOR and it was still on like, you know, 30 hours later or something. And I was like, okay, nevermind, I don't know anything, like, I don't know what's happening here. Did you listen to that interview? Peter Attia interviewed a woman and like her thing was mTOR.

Vanessa Spina:
don't know. I'd love to get their name and go look it up. It was a really deep dive. I'll have to find it. You know what's blowing my mind lately is the podcast transcripts on iTunes. Oh, I listen on Spotify. I don't know if Spotify has this, but iTunes now has transcripts for every podcast. And so you can search the transcripts on the app. So if I want, like, if I want to go back and find that interview, I can search in the transcript just when they talk about mTOR. For us too? Yeah. And you can search specific terms, but you can also watch the words as you're listening, which is a new thing that I love to do because it's like subtitles. So it kind of helps me to deepen my understanding when it's something really complex. I can listen to it and I can also watch the words as it goes through the transcript.

Melanie Avalon:
I had a moment, sorry, just speaking of this week, because like one of my best friends ever, shout out to Carmen and me, he's directing his first feature film with a really incredible cast. And I was watching his producer cut, so there's no subtitles, obviously. And I was like, whoa, this is like a whole new experience. I forgot what it was like to watch something without subtitles. I think it made me watch it a little bit better. I used to think it was the opposite, the subtitles were helping me, but now I'm wondering if I'm becoming reliant on subtitles, well, like for videos, like for movies and TV, because you watch with subtitles, right? I love them.

Vanessa Spina:
but also I have two kids that are constantly making noises, so I can't really watch anything without subtitles now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So that was a moment. I was like, I don't know what to do with myself. I have to like, listen. Oh my goodness. Love it. Awesome. Well, this was super fun. So if Rebecca is still around, definitely let us know how it went with the avocados, which I am now craving.

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say if we want to do this last question, it's kind of related, like we could answer it pretty quick because it's kind of related to what we've just been talking about.

Melanie Avalon:
This is from Sherry. She says, if I want more muscle definition, should I eat shortly after my weightlifting session or complete my 16-hour fast? Should I break my fast and take collagen and creatine right after my session and then eat a meal after I have fasted 16 hours? I am 59 years young and could stand to lose a little fat on my arms and belly around three to five pounds.

Vanessa Spina:
That was some alliteration. Should I eat shortly after my weightlifting session? It's very poetic writing. So, I would say that, in my opinion, it probably just comes down to what feels best for you, and we might have different opinions on this. Being as what we were just talking about with the studies and the meta-analysis talking about chloric restriction and intermittent fasting, basically generating the same amount of fat loss between the two, I think it really just comes down to how you feel best. If you like to eat right after your weightlifting session, you can do that. If you want to break your fast and have collagen and creatine, and also have a meal right after your workout, then you can definitely do it. I don't think you need to get to a certain goal, especially with the hours, and if you want to lose some body fat, like three to five pounds you were saying, ultimately if you were doing chloric restriction and you were doing any kind of intermittent fasting, according to the definitions we were recently covering, at least 14 hours of fasting, you're doing intermittent fasting. So, I would say just however it works best for you. I like playing around with different things. I recently started doing a meal before my workouts, and I've been losing, it was about three pounds now, almost five pounds in the past couple of weeks. So, I think it's worth experimenting and finding whatever you feel best doing, because I did my workouts fasted for so many years because I thought I was getting more mitochondrial biogenesis from that. When it turns out, it's really just the exercise that's doing that. Personally, I've been finding it fun to play around with that and to experiment. Ultimately, I've been having better workouts, having a small meal, not a huge meal, just a small meal before working out. I'm still doing intermittent fasting, according to those definitions, and I'm getting better results, which for me, I'm trying to focus on what the outcome is. It sounds like you are also interested in three to five pounds of fat loss. So, it made me think of my personal experience, but I think it really will just come down to what kind of caloric deficit you're creating, whether you're doing a 16-hour fast or longer or shorter. As long as the calories are equated, you're going to get the same amount of fat loss, whether you eat right after or if you fast longer during the day. That's my take on it. What about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Before that, what do you think about the collagen and creatine specifically for taking those?

Vanessa Spina:
in terms of the fat loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, she should break her fast with collagen and creatine right after her session and then eat a meal.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I think those are probably great for boosting. I mean creatine has been proven in the science to help boost lean body mass. And there's lots of meta-analysis showing that it increases fat loss in women. So it definitely can help, including that in your routine. Having it right after a session, I don't think it matters when you take it. If you have it right after your session, in terms of the timing, I don't think it matters. And the same with collagen. As long as you have it sometime during your eating window. But I can't really speak to the specifics with regards to fasting for 16 hours or not.

Melanie Avalon:
And I think we've talked about it a lot on this show about there's this idea that you have to have the protein right after the exercise and that's not necessarily the case. And I really think it's about what works best for you. I would have a little bit of a different approach if I was a professional bodybuilder or that's my job and then it would be a little bit more specific. But for the everyday person just wanting to exercise, maintain and gain muscle, follow the healthy diet that works for them, I really would do the window that feels the best for both the exercise and the hunger overall and all the things. So I eat regardless of whatever activity I do during the day, I always eat way later at night. And that's worked even with doing M-sculpt where I go in and do these sessions earlier in the day where it's creating really intense muscle proteins, synthesis, signaling in my muscles and I don't eat until later that night. Well, this was absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can submit your own questions to the show at questions at ifpodcast.com. If you would like to come on the show as a featured guest, we are going to start having some guest interviews. So for that, go to ifpodcast.com/submit and then you can fill out a form there to submit to share your story on the show. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 389, they'll have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and really enjoyed the questions and the study that we talked about, so looking forward to our next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Okay, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Sep 08

Episode 386: Fasting Terminology Consensus, Adjusting To Time Restricted Eating, Perception Of Fullness, Metabolic Flexibility, Pre-Workout Meals, Fasted Exercise, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 386 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Be sure to try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

International consensus on fasting terminology

Listener Q&A: Patti - I’m sure it’s different for everyone but... how long does it generally take for your body to adjust to IF?

Dietary and physical activity adaptations to alternate day modified fasting: implications for optimal weight loss 

Four weeks of 16: 8 time-restricted feeding on stress, sleep, quality of life, hunger level, and body composition in healthy adults: a pilot study on wellness optimization

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 386 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 386 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I'm good. There's a pretty cool product I sort of want to tell the audience about that I've been using that I'm becoming increasingly obsessed with, if you'd like to hear about it. So have we talked about this? How much do you obsess about sleeping, like sleep environment?

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe a little bit more than the average person, not insane.

Melanie Avalon:
It's probably a good safety scale. I'm crazy. I do all the things all the time. And I'm really into sleep temperature. Sleep temperature can be really important for falling asleep, staying asleep, all the things. And I cannot sleep if I am not cool. So that's why I use the cooling mattress, which has been a game changer for me. I've tried a lot of different blankets to stay cool historically. And this company reached out to me, and they are so interesting. So they're called Hilu, H-I-L-U, have you heard about them? So they make a blanket, and it's made of graphene fabric. And so this fabric actually adapts, they call it smart technology, but it actually adapts and changes your body temperature. So the way it works is that that material actually conducts and transfers heat. And I hope I'm understanding it correctly. But basically what it sounds like is the fabric itself, that material, likes to live at a place of around 64 to 68 degrees, which is the perfect temperature for sleep. And basically whatever it touches, it makes what it's touching become that temperature. I'm not explaining this very correctly, but basically if you're overheated, it will literally pull the heat from your body. So whereas most blankets, you would put them on, and regardless of your baseline state, they would make you warmer in theory, this, if you're warmer, it will pull the temperature from you. And then on the flip side, if you're too cold because they want to create this, you know, this live at this baseline temperature, they would warm you up. So regardless of what temperature you are, they regulate you to the, quote, perfect temperature for sleep. And I didn't believe it, but it actually works. It's like shocking, especially because it's like a very, very thin material. Like it is not a thick blanket and yet it, it just regulates your body temperature. And it's so, so soft. It feels so good. I'm just obsessed. I'm going to use it for every night now. So yeah, that's my new like biohacking fun thing. And I do have a code for listeners. So if they go to melanieavalon.com/hilu, that's H I L U and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon. That should give you a discount. I'm actually setting it up with them right now, but I'll just lock that down. But yeah, that's my new fun thing. I love when I find things like this that are actually changing my life. So yes, have you heard of this material before Vanessa or this magical blanket?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't. No, I've heard of different kind of cooling pads and things like that. I think the main thing that we focus on is temperature, making sure it's really cold in the room. And we both just sleep so much better with cold air at night. And I've heard these cooling pads. I always thought my husband would really sleep well on a cooling pad, but I've actually become a super hot person now. I'm so hot all the time now from all the thermogenic-effective protein. My metabolism and everything is so different. And I used to always be a cold person, which makes it hard in a relationship when one person's always cold, the other person's always hot. And now we're both really warm all the time, so it makes it a lot easier. But I think we probably could really benefit from some kind of cooling pad or something like that, especially because the kids are there, too, all the time. And they're so warm, so we have to counteract some of that as well. But yeah, it's deep sleep. Enjoy it all for me because you are getting all this amazing uninterrupted sleep, I'm guessing, every night. And you don't really appreciate it fully until you don't. It's different in this phase of our lives, for sure. So we do whatever we can to get it in because it is so important.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, first of all, yeah, the cooling mattress, also a game changer. And you mentioned, so I use the Oohler. You mentioned, you know, having your partner and now you guys are both similar sleep temperatures. Oh, which same here. Like I eat all the protein before bed. I eat right before bed. So I eat those pounds and pounds of protein literally. I think last night I ate, oh gosh, I think maybe I ate like five pounds of protein last night, maybe, or six. And then I went to bed and it was so hot. I would have died without my cooling mattress, but the Oohler, they actually make a two sleeper one so you can change the temperature on either side. So if you have a partner and you guys are, even though I know you said you guys are similar now, that can be really great for people. Like I can't recommend that enough. And then this blanket, it's so amazing. It's like you put it on and I just feel it like pulling the heat from my body. It's incredible. And I'm very, very proud of my sleep because I historically identified as an insomniac and really, really struggled to sleep. And now I'm like pretty good. And my aura ring reports back pretty good. And I basically all the things that I do really work. I just don't think I'm like, some people are just like great sleepers. Like they just go to sleep and stay asleep and wake up. And that's never been me. But if I do all the things, I can get by and give myself like a B plus, I guess. So anything else new with you?

Vanessa Spina:
I recorded an amazing podcast with this PhD scientist who got his PhD in autophagy and we talked, we had the most amazing conversation. I think it's one of my all-time favorite episodes ever of the Altamont protein podcast. And I got the episode back yesterday, which is the day that it goes out on Monday. And my microphone was not plugged in.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
So I almost started crying. I didn't I wanted to cry but I instead pivoted quickly to what I could do And I was like, I'm just gonna rerecord my parts because his audio sounded great So like this will be really easy and I was like super fired up. So I rerecorded all of my parts and Then I thought it would be very simple process, you know, cuz it's back and forth you talk I talk like they you know It's like relatively straightforward, but it ended up being very complex for my editor To do because you know, he doesn't understand, you know, a lot of the terms we were talking about You know, so it's not that he can't it's just he's not familiar with you know, these different terms, especially when you get really Really in-depth on you know, some of the pathways and stuff which we were super going this deep dive You know very complex stuff and so he put out the episode like around midnight and I was waiting and waiting for it So episodes release and I'm listening back to it in bed. I've got both kids sleeping next to me and I'm like gets about the half an hour mark and this is a 90-minute episode and Whatever. I said was not matching up to whatever he said. I was like, no, no, no, no Oh, no, and we thought we had like I knew he was struggling already But I had already sort of you know Addressed it with him and corrected some things and he said he thought everything was matching up He double-checked it so I get out of bed Download the episode and I'm sitting here in the office just like cutting and pasting Two in the morning Damien starts crying. So I go get him He's on me and I'm sitting here like just cutting and pasting all this stuff and even for me I was like having a hard time piecing together, you know, which parts are would anyway finally got it out and I'm so happy. I re-recorded my audio because the audio was on my Mac book and it just sounds so Tinny, you know and it hurts my ears Like I really really it just it was such a beautiful episode such an important one for me And I'm so happy that we got it, you know fully sorted out I think there's like like there's one part of the episode that was lost forever It's like I'm not gonna get it back I just have to let go and move on because probably nobody will notice anyway, but so now I need that's why You know, we started recording today. I was like, you hear me because you know, right? I swear I double-checked it, but it must have gotten, you know knocked or something But yeah, it's one of those things like when you I know you recently interviewed, you know Dr. Gregor and you had to rerecord and it's like in our line of work, you know Those are like there's a few things that can go really wrong It's like you're not recording or your mic isn't plugged in and yeah But thankfully we were able to salvage it and I'm so happy with the episode now, but I learned so much From talking to him. I was mentioning it in the last episode. It was such a great conversation on, you know, what exactly Triggers autophagy just some really cool cool stuff and I was also I also tagged you This past week this amazing new study came out or paper came out, which is an international consensus on fasting terminology And when I saw this it was like the clouds parted it like hallelujah you know was playing my head and I I tagged you right away because It's such an amazing paper and it has so many Fasting experts were involved in it like Christopher Valter Longo Mark Madsen, you know, Dr. Satchin Panda. I mean, I think they had 38 Scientists in total they you know came together to form these definitions It's really really cool how they actually define them because this is one thing you and I have talked about so many times about how frustrating it is when you're reading research and You know the title of the paper is like intermittent fasting and protein or intermittent fasting and this and then you start reading It and you're like wait, this is not this is not fasting at all, you know, so they came out with some really cool definitions I can mention a few of them that are relevant to intermittent fasting if

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I would love that. I'm dying to know what they are.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So they, I think they did a really good job of it. They had 38 experts of them and they were defining fasting, which is the voluntary abstinence from some or all foods or foods and beverages. Modified fasting, which is restricting energy intake to maximum 25% of energy needs. Fluid only fasting, which, you know, speaks for itself. Alternate day fasting, which also is self-explanatory. Short-term fasting is fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't actually don't know that it might not be self-explanatory for some people. So what is alternate day fasting?

Vanessa Spina:
Fasting. Fasting on alternate days of the week. So fasting one day, not fasting the next day, fasting the next day, not fasting the next day, just alternating your fasting with the days of the week. So does it happen?

Melanie Avalon:
have to be like every other day or can it be a few days?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. It's every other day. Yeah. And I'll get more into the specifics of it, but this is just sort of in the introduction. So the short-term fasting is two to three days, prolonged fasting is four or more consecutive days of fasting. And then they also defined religious fasting and intermittent fasting, which is repetitive fasting periods lasting under 48 hours. And then they also defined time restricted eating and fasting mimicking diet. So specifically when it comes to intermittent fasting, we have some really, really specific terms. So I think in the future, anyone who does a study involving fasting should be using these terms, hopefully, because they had all the top fasting scientists it seems in this paper. So with regards to continuous, they define continuous fasting regimens and they defined intermittent fasting, regimens, and then special fasting and religious fasting. So like I mentioned, the short-term fasting is fasting regimens with a duration of two to three days, prolonged fasting, also called long-term fasting is four or more consecutive days. Periodic fasting refers to any fasting that is repeated at regular intervals. So every day, every week, or every month. Then with intermittent fasting, they defined about five different terms. So intermittent energy restriction, IER, includes periods of caloric restriction, alternating with periods of ad libitum eating. So that's very similar to what this community follows. So intermittent energy restriction, you have caloric restriction and fasting, and then ad libitum eating, which means you can eat as much as you want for however long as you want in that period of, in that window of eating. And so under the IER, they have intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. And then intermittent fasting refers to repetitive fasting periods lasting up to 48 hours each. IF includes fasting, includes regimens of one fasting per week, two separate or consecutive days per week, alternate day fasting, ADF, and time-restricted eating. And then time-restricted eating is where you have food intake and the consumption of caloric beverages. So they even defined the fact that your beverages have to have calories in them, are restricted to a specific period of time during the day, resulting in a daily fasting window of at least 14 hours. So that also sounds like both of those kind of apply to this community specifically. There's no explicit limit on energy intake during eating hours. So they really got specific on this. And then alternate day fasting refers to alternating a day of eating, ad libitum, and a day of water only fasting. So that's very specific. One day of water only, one day of eating as much as you want with no limitations. Alternate day modified fasting is alternating a day of eating ad libitum and a day of modified fasting. And then they talked about special fasting regimens like therapeutic fasting, which is any kind of fasting regimen that you're using as a therapy. And then they talked about the fasting mimicking diet, which is specifically a diet that is specifically composed to induce the metabolic effects of fasting while allowing for a potentially higher caloric intake, including solid foods. And it refers to a plant-based calorie-restricted diet with a maximum of approximately a thousand calories a day and lasts for three to seven days. So they're using this FMD sort of moniker for any diet like that, which is really interesting. And then they have things like intermittent dry fasting, intermittent fasting that involves abstaining from food and fluid intake during fasting hours. So super specific and I think really helpful. You know, I think there were some things I think that are worth mentioning, which is they define the difference between water only fasting, specifically where only water is consumed for a certain period of time. The term total fast or complete fast, which is a fasting regimen where no calories are consumed for a period of time. And then they defined like fasting itself as a voluntary absence of some or all foods or beverages for preventative, therapeutic, religious, cultural, other regions, other reasons, and dry fasting and modified fasting, which I mentioned, mentioned at the beginning. So we'll link it in the show notes if anyone wants to check it out. I think it was very much, you know, long overdue to have these terms, but better late than ever. And I'm so glad that I think maybe Grant Tinsley was involved in spearheading this. He was one of the experts on the panel. And it's really helpful. I think it should hopefully serve as a guide for future studies that are done on fasting. And so if you're doing something that is outside the strict terminology, then theoretically you shouldn't be able to title it as a fasting diet or, you know, I think these clarification on these terms makes a big difference.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for going through all that. That was so fascinating. Okay. So it sounds like, because one of the terminologies that I think I got would historically get the most, I guess, on the fence about what to use was intermittent fasting versus time restricted eating. Okay, wait, wait, did they call it time restricted eating or time restricted feeding?

Vanessa Spina:
Time restricted eating, and I heard another scientist recently talking about how they only use feeding for rodents now or for animals.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Wait, you heard him talking? Where does he talk? Does he go on shows?

Vanessa Spina:
This was a podcast with a different scientist who was doing a podcast with a scientist on autophagy that I just interviewed. So I was watching it in the past week and he did most of the intermittent fasting and autophagy research in humans that's come out recently. And he was saying that's, he was clarifying when they, why they don't, they don't use feeding anymore for humans. It's basically just for animals or other life forms used. And stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, and the aliens. Yeah, exactly. Okay, that is so helpful for how we talk about it going forward.

Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Sachin Panda, he, when I interviewed him, he sort of explained the difference to me between intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. And they did, I think maybe some of the definitions around that are from him in this paper because it sounds like what he was saying to me, which is the time-restricted eating is really only like a pattern of eating where you are defining the hours, like 16, 8, 24, et cetera, which again is like what a lot of people who listen to this podcast or in this community do. And then intermittent fasting, he said, you could intermittent fast, but you could also like sort of eat. It doesn't really matter specifically with the time intervals, like it's less, less defined by the time intervals, which makes sense from the terminology, time-restricted eating versus intermittent fasting. Like he was saying, you could do intermittent fasting over a couple of days or there's no sort of strict definition around the timing of it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So basically all time restricted eating is intermittent fasting, but not all intermittent fasting is time restricted eating.

Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly what he said, much better said.

Melanie Avalon:
for the time, does it have to be actually time on the clock? Or can it be like counting hours? Like I fast for 12 hours? Or could it be like a one meal a day approach? Do you know, by chance? Well, they said,

Vanessa Spina:
said that the daily fasting window had to be at least 14 hours. So I don't know if that helps. They don't really mention like clock time, but you have to be fasting doing at least 14 hours for it to be time-restricted eating. But it's really interesting. Dr. Sesh and Panda told me when we had our conversation on the podcast that the reason that they did the eight-hour eating window became so popular around the world was because that's how they did the study. And the reason that they did eight hours is because the student that he had running the labs for him had to be home for dinner with his girlfriend at a certain period of time, and also because of like there were rules around how long students could be in the lab. So you couldn't like overwork them, etc. And so they ended up doing eight hours because that was when he had to go home to have dinner with his girlfriend and based on the rules there. And then it became this whole like 16-8 thing became so big, but it actually just was because of that sort of fun fact.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. That kid. Who knew? I wonder if he realizes what he created. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
He must know because Dr. Kanda talks about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that is so cool. I would have loved to have just seen the experience of spearheading that discussion and, you know, and talking to all the different researchers. And I wonder what was the most intensely debated one.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I think the way that they did it actually was through surveys.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm not sure if they had an open forum, but it says they had five online surveys. Oh, and then they had a live online conference with the 38 experts and 25 of them completed all five surveys. And then they use that to generate the consensus on the terms as well as the live open forum. Yeah. So that, yeah, would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
agree with all of the terms, mostly.

Vanessa Spina:
For the most part, the only thing that I think is still troublesome is, you know, just in the summary, it says that fasting is the voluntary abstinence from some or all foods or foods and beverages. To me, it should be all foods and beverages. Why is it some or all?

Melanie Avalon:
So when you first read that, I thought that, but then when you read all the definitions, I was like, oh, it makes sense because some of them are not like, you know, the fasting mimicking diet or the therapeutic fasting. So I think it's like allowing, it's this huge umbrella that's allowing for all the different layers and shades of restriction.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so nice. But if it was me, I would have not allowed those in there. Because to me, that's part of what creates confusion, even though there will be less confusion. In my opinion, fasting should just strictly be the voluntary abstinence of all food or beverages and then add a part about time or period of time, as opposed to some or all. And some or all foods and beverages, or foods and beverages. Because then, to me, fasting mimicking diet, I know it has a lot of great science behind it. It's not fasting to me. And it's just like when we were discussing the research with Dr. Paula Arciero, his approach, where he was doing this protein pacing, to me, again, was not fasting. It was eating. It was caloric restriction. And I think fasting mimicking should be under the umbrella of caloric restriction. And so should that approach the protein pacing. With Dr. Paul Arciero, I love his work. But to me, that's caloric restriction. And it's not fasting. But that's my opinion.

Melanie Avalon:
So what would, because I just love this conversation. So what would you call? So somebody who is quote, juice fasting, would you just propose using a different word there? Yeah, they're juicing. Juicing. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't get it because the word fasting to me is absence of and then you're putting food in front of it like fat fasting. No, you're just eating fat. You're not abstaining from eating fat. So I think that's where it's, I think again, these terms, especially that word get fasting gets used in all these wrong ways because it's trendy and it gets more clicks and it gets more attention, et cetera, saying fat fasting or fasting mimicking diet gets way more attention than saying like just eating a tiny bit of food. Like no one really wants that. Just eating fat, no one wants to do that, but fat fasting, I mean, I don't know, that's just my opinion. What do you think of these terms?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so well that's two good examples. So fat fasting, like we were talking about where people basically eat just fat, that actually makes no sense because saying fat fasting makes it sound like you are fasting from fat. I would take it the other way even though it means people are just eating fat. I can see how the word fasting could mean fasting from and then it doesn't necessarily have to be all food. That's why I'm sort of okay with the umbrella definition. And then with fasting mimicking, I don't have a problem with that because it doesn't say it's fasting, it says it's fasting mimicking. I do agree with you that it actually would be a lot cleaner if we could have fasting be just complete abstinence and then have different other words like juicing and I would keep fasting mimicking because that would make sense because it's mimicking fasting, like the effects of fasting. Yeah, I do think it would be cleaner. I can also see why at this point, I guess there's so many different words that they want to be more lenient with the main word.

Vanessa Spina:
It's when I saw it, I was very excited when I read what it actually was. I was a bit less excited, but still happy that it's out there and I'm interviewing the, I think the lead author on this, see when a couple of weeks, I think, so I will have to ask him for August 14th. Yeah, in two weeks, exactly. Well, so I'll have to ask him about, about some of these things and I'll have to challenge him a bit on, but I get it, you know, they're trying to be inclusive, but, you know, I think sometimes being inclusive comes at a cost and some of these, these things are just getting, they're getting slipped in there with the fasting because it gets more attention than if they called it what it actually is, which is a very low calorie diet. Like that has so much, I think negative connotation to it or low energy diet, you know, that's what some of these protocols are. But when you call it fasting, it's like, Ooh, it doesn't sound so bad now. Right.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, actually pointing out that piece of the puzzle, I definitely agree that we probably should go stricter because like you said, there are so I mean, there's so many studies where they do that where they they call it fasting, and then they're eating things and it just is so it's just very, what's the word misleading, very misleading.

Vanessa Spina:
it is. What I do like about the paper is that they talked about a lot of the mechanisms behind fasting, you know, why it's sort of having or being implicated in influencing aging, extending lifespan, you know, how, you know, they did a pretty good summary of the biochemical pathways of how, you know, it modulates different signaling pathways. I like a lot of aspects of it, like for the most part. So I'm pretty happy that they came out with this. So let's hope that there's more consensus now in the research on these terms. And I think it's a good sign also that this is being put out there now because, you know, fasting is as popular as ever. So it's a good time for it.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the article called again and what journal was it in?

Vanessa Spina:
So, it was published in Cell Metabolism and just now, as of I think five days ago, so July 25th, and it's called International Consensus on Fasting Terminology. Awesome. I just sent you the link.

Melanie Avalon:
Perfect. Thank you. We'll put a link to it in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode386. And so the head researcher that you're interviewing him, did you already have him booked and then you read the article?

Vanessa Spina:
booked him on the podcast like two weeks ago. And then I think it was last week, he just published this on Instagram. So pretty neat. Yeah, it's so cool. Yeah. And guess who I just booked yesterday? Who? Dr. Luke Van Loon. Oh, the protein guy. Yes. The one who did that amazing episode of Peter Atiyah. And I have been talking to his colleague and they together did that paper on the hundred grams of protein, having no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis. So now I have to prepare like heck for these interviews. You know, it's like, okay, I finally got them booked. Now comes the hard work, you know, because one of them is in October. And I'm like, I'm glad because it gives me time. Like this is something I'm going to be doing all like all my weekends till then are going to be preparing for this, you know, because I've got regular the other interviews during the week. So yeah, but I'm really excited.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Congrats. That's amazing. That interview was so fascinating. It was.

Vanessa Spina:
It really, really was. Yeah, so he's done, I think, more protein research than maybe even Dr. Don Lehman or similar amounts. Yeah, really exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I can't wait for that. Let me know how that goes. Yeah, he was awesome. That interview, I just, it took me forever to listen to because there was just so much. Every sentence he said I had to like think about.

Vanessa Spina:
I still think about how he talked about when you look at the little droplets of fat in the muscle and how the mitochondria have little backpacks of fat droplets.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, thank you. That was that was great. That was much needed years and years we needed that. Yes. So awesome. Okay. Should we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. Would you like to read the first question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, our first question is from Patti Connors and the subject is how long? I'm sure it's different for everyone, but how long does it generally take for your body to adjust to intermittent fasting?

Melanie Avalon:
All right, Patty, thank you so much for your question. So interestingly, this was one of these questions that I thought was going to be so easy to find studies just answering it. And it was not easy for me at all. I don't know what your experience was, Vanessa, but I just couldn't find studies talking about this. What I did find, which I decided was the route to go for me, was just look at studies, looking at intermittent fasting, and see what they reported for the participants' experience of that. So when did their hunger go away, the adherence? Because I think a really good sign, because there's a question here of by adapting or adjusting, you know, what do you mean by that? And for me, that's basically when you're not hungry anymore, and when you have energy while fasting. So I tried to look at studies that talked about when participants no longer had hunger while adjusting to a fasting regimen. And now every time I say fasting, I'm like, am I using the right word? So for example, there was a 2010 study called Dietary and Physical Activity Adaptations to Alternate Day Modified Fasting Implications for Weight Loss. That was an eight-week study in obese individuals. And they found that they were hungry for the first week, but then they were less hungry the second week. So it sounds like by the second week, they were making some sort of adaptations here. And then interestingly, they were low in satisfaction the first four weeks. So the first month, they felt a little bit not satisfied. But then that started increasing after four weeks. So it sounds like for them, you know, they started adapting after a week. And then they started making even more adaptations probably after four weeks. Interestingly, it said that their perception of fullness remained low throughout the entire trial. Another study. So this was four weeks of 16-8 time-restricted feeding, although we should call it time-restricted eating, as we have learned. That was in healthy adults, 16 healthy adults on their normal diet. And I liked this one because this one felt very real life. Like it's normal people on their normal diet doing 16-8, which is a very common approach that we talk about. And the actual type of students, it was mostly grad students and people in health care. And they were looking at their stress levels. So it was highly stressed individuals. And they actually found that, well, overall, this is a side note, but they found that the fasting approach, the 16-8 approach was actually really good for decreasing their acute stress and their hunger. And it was week two when hunger started going down and it continued to go down over time. So that was a similar finding to the first study where it seems like week two is when people were really adapting on the hunger front. That's just two studies, but very similar findings. And then historically, just when I've done research on this, and I remember I actually talked about this in my book, What Went Wine. I was looking at adherence to intermittent fasting. And in general, the adherence levels seem to be a lot better and like perceptions of fullness and well, I know the other one said that fullness was low, but in general, it seems that people often have more satisfaction and adherence and satiety on fasting compared to typical, quote, calorie restriction approaches. But just looking at those two, looking at my own personal experience, and also what I hear from a lot of listeners and people in the audience, it seems that after the first week is when you start making adjustments, at least on the hunger front. And then as you continue, it seems like further adaptations continue, including at the month mark, the one month mark and ongoing. Do you have thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I love everything that you shared. I think that was so smart to look at. I was more so thinking and looking at the timeline on metabolic switching.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, which I think is a huge part of the question as well.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it is and I guess it would be more, I was thinking about that and I was also reflecting back on my conversation with Cara Collier at NutriSense and how she was talking about some of the signs that people are starting to get into insulin resistance because I think that obviously being able to undergo the metabolic switch, which is really well-defined in the scientific research, is your body is using up glucose and glycogen and that usually takes around 12 hours to deplete in the liver and that's usually when the body makes a fuel switch to predominantly using fatty acids and ketones. And so if you were doing an 18 hour fast, for example, then you would be fasting for 12 hours on your stored glucose and glycogen and then you make the metabolic switch and you'd be fasting for six hours using your fatty acids and ketones. So reflecting back on my conversation with Cara, I think it sort of depends on what your background is and what your activity levels are because that's going to determine how quickly you deplete the glycogen in your liver anyway, in your muscles. It's sort of a different compartment. So you could deplete that just from doing some exercise, but you won't actually deplete your muscle glycogen unless you do exercise. It's only your liver glycogen that will get depleted, which is really interesting. So your tissues, your body will predominantly be using fatty acids and ketones after 12 hours. So if you feel pretty good after 12 hours and you are making that metabolic switch and you're able to fast beyond 12 hours. And according to the paper we just talked about, you hit a minimum of 14 hours, then you are officially intermittent fasting or doing time restricted eating. Then it's a pretty good sign if you can make it 14 hours is basically what I'm saying, because then you are making the metabolic switch and you are now in fat burning mode predominantly. So if you're able to do that pretty easily, then it's probably going to happen quite quickly for you. Whereas if you're struggling to make that metabolic switch and you're finding yourself not able to go very long without food, it probably will take more time to adapt. So I think that's going to have to do with your physiological status in terms of how insulin sensitive versus insulin resistant you are and how metabolically flexible you are, which I'm now learning about the metabolic flexibility really comes in a big way from activity levels. So how active you are, I think is going to be one of the biggest levers or switches. What's the word I'm looking for? Dials to turn when it comes to being able to make that transition smoothly and do it faster, if that makes sense. So the more metabolically fit you are, the more metabolically sensitive you are, the more active you are, you're probably going to make that switch faster. Whereas if you have a bit more metabolic healing to do, it's probably going to take longer if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And I'm so glad that works so well, because I feel like we covered the two aspects of it, which is like perfect. I was hoping, I was like, I hope Vanessa has like the specifics about the, what you just said. What was the first time you did fasting? Do you remember fasting? No, I can't even use the word. Every time I use the word, I'm like, am I using the definition? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
by abstaining from food or partly abstaining from food.

Melanie Avalon:
When was the first time you completely abstained from food and intentionally completely abstained from food for a period of time?

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm going back to my Ori Hofelmecker days when I read Ori, who we still need to have on this show, our origin story. I'm going back to when I read an article about him, then I read his book, and I decided to try the warrior diet. And I'm pretty sure I loved it pretty quickly. And I felt good doing it. However, I believe I had been doing keto. And I had been doing a little bit of like Maria Emmerich approach at the time, which was more around adding in fat and making the transition. So lowering carbs and adding fat. And Ori's approach was like, don't eat until have one meal a day, you know, at the end of the day. And, you know, he was like, have all your carbs last or something like that. I'm trying to remember back. Unfortunately, I don't really clearly remember if it was that hard, but I don't think it was. But I think it was because I was starting to already get into that metabolic switching and making that, you know, bioenergetic switch from the glucose to ketone metabolism. And I think that that's something that I've spoken about in the past that definitely helps. They really go well together. You know, if you are looking to get into more fasting, lowering your carbon take can definitely help because you're going to be lowering that stored glycogen. And then you're going to help your body be able to burn fat more excessively, more, more efficiently. And so it can help when making the transition. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was really similar because I was also doing the warrior diet. I think, so I remember, I think Ori actually allows for like light snacking during the day on, I didn't do that, but he allows it on things like lettuce. I distinctly remember like reading that you could munch on like lettuce and stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
fasting mimicking or protein pacing.

Melanie Avalon:
I was so similar to you in that I was already low carb. I was doing Atkins. And so I think that really helped with the transition. But I will always remember probably my first day because it was, I was so intentional about it. And it was like a thing. And I thought it was going to be so hard and it wasn't.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I remember you said something about how you were on set or something and so it was easy because you stayed busy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yeah, I was on my friend's film set and and normally on film sets, there's craft services, which is like the snack area. And normally I would always just like snack the whole time. So this time I, I just drank the teas the whole time. And I remember, yeah, I remember thinking, this is going to be so hard. And it was doable. And I thought I was doing some it's so interesting, because I thought it was like this huge mountain to climb. And now the fact that I've done it almost every single day for over a decade, it's so, so, so interesting how your paradigm can shift. So yeah, I thought I was going to do it for a week and then I never stopped. That was, that was that story.

Vanessa Spina:
It's actually amazing that you've been doing it for that long without changing it up. Like, I change it up all the time. I'm constantly doing different experiments. Yesterday, I tried doing three meals a day. Whoa. Yeah, I was trying carbs and I tested oatmeal, which I haven't had in like 10 years because I've been reading to Luca Goldilocks and the three bears. Oh, have you been craving oatmeal? He was like, why are they, he's like, what's porridge? Why are they eating porridge? So I was like, I'll make you some porridge. So I made a porridge. And then I was like, oh, maybe I should test some oatmeal and put some protein powder in it because I've been experimenting with having a small meal with carbs in it before I work out. And I'm loving it. I'm able to get a whole other set done. I'm enjoying my workouts way more. And yeah, I've been sort of talking about this on my podcast a bit, how I've been doing this. But so I was like, let me test oatmeal because I've heard this is something that spikes your blood sugar, you know, as much or more than like white rice or white bread or whatever. And of the day on Sunday, it was my lowest post meal response.

Melanie Avalon:
lowest blood sugar response.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. After the meal, like we had a lunch that day of duck and I had like sauerkraut or pickled cabbage, and I had a much bigger spike from that. And then I had like yogurt and protein powder and strawberries later, and I had a much bigger response, maybe, you know, because of the insulin sensitivity in the morning, but I did a test of it again this morning. And same thing. It was like even smaller blip than on Sunday. So I was expecting to have this crazy high spike. And I think it's just because of my resistance training, partly, but oatmeal does not spike my blood sugar at all, like even less than strawberries. It's crazy. And after all that, Luca had like two bites and he didn't like it. So.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny.

Vanessa Spina:
I do tend to stick with the same things for certain periods of time but I love experimenting so I'm always changing things up and I'm trying this eating before I work out and lately my workouts have been in the morning so I've been having a breakfast meal and then sometimes I'll have like a lunch and a dinner just the last few days and yeah it's super different than what I usually do although I'm sure there's one of these fasting terms that I could fall under because I'm still I'm still fasting for at least 14 hours so technically it's still

Melanie Avalon:
It's still, in terms of fasting. No, no, no. It's still time restricted. Time restricted eating. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Well, it says that intermittent fasting is repetitive fasting periods lasting up to 48 hours.

Melanie Avalon:
It'd be both. It'd be because all time restricted eating is intermittent fasting. So you automatically get two labels.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Yeah. So that's still, I'm still, I'm still fasting with my three meals a day.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so the entirety of that window is what to what, the three meals?

Vanessa Spina:
So today, for example, let's see, I had my first meal. I can look at my CGM. I had the first meal at 10 and then I had my last meal right before we started recording, which was seven. So is that nine hours?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yeah. And how much protein do you get in that window?

Vanessa Spina:
So I can tell you exactly because I've been tracking everything right now because I'm I've been really fascinated with tracking And seeing what i'm doing because it is a little bit different than I thought it was I'm actually eating way more than I thought I was like I started Tracking because i've been doing some podcasts about my daily routine And I didn't realize my calories were so high like there's a few days last week where they were like 2500 calories I had no idea that I was eating that many calories, but I guess i've been breastfeeding for a while So but my protein is like crazy high like it's even higher than I thought it was and I thought it was pretty high so on sunday It was 176 grams and that was like a small day for me. So most days it's like 220 to 250

Melanie Avalon:
Pounds of protein.

Vanessa Spina:
grams of protein in terms in terms of like not grams of the food weight, but the protein in the food The grams of protein in the food because I know that's confusing sometimes especially if you're in Europe because everything here is grams So like when you go eat, they'll be like your steak is 200 grams But the protein in that obviously is different. But yeah most days I'm getting around 220 grams of protein and some days even higher and I had no idea it was that high like I knew it was high So like the other day it was 225 and then like my carbs have been around 75 to 100 because I'm testing all kinds of stuff now, but I'm having so much fun Experimenting with all this different stuff and all this is just to come back Well, I am still intermittent fasting technically, but it's it's really interesting So I haven't had three meals a day probably since before or a huffle maker. So that was like, you know, it's been a long time. Yeah Yeah, I've always done the two days two meals a day felt like You know, I there's no way I could eat more than that. But if you eat smaller meals like if you just have For example some oatmeal with a scoop of protein powder in it. That's like 200 calories So, you know, that's a nice for me pre-workout meal And then I kind of have like the rest of the meal after working out So it's almost like I'm splitting up that first meal onto two

Melanie Avalon:
It's really nice to hear because, you know, we get so many questions. We actually had one and the potential lineup, but we're not getting to it. We get a lot of questions about people feeling like they can't fit in enough protein within, you know, certain eating window. And it's hard for me to speak to it from my perspective, because from my perspective, like I said, I literally will eat, you know, like five pounds of meat in one sitting, so I'm not a good example because most people are not doing that. So people who have a longer window, it's nice to hear that you, you know, you successfully can have three meals with protein in nine hours and it sounds comfortable for you, right? You're not, you don't feel like you're, or are you trying to get it in?

Vanessa Spina:
It's very comfortable. I think it's actually way easier to get in the amount of protein that I want to. I don't think I need to eat this much protein, but I enjoy it. And, you know, there's no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis as I've learned. And I'm in the years, you know, when, like, now is the time you want to build as much muscle as possible while you can. So I'm really trying to push, you know, the protein and the resistance training while I can grow muscle still. So yeah, I think it's, I'm finding I'm enjoying it. It's, but I definitely am doing it on the days that I'm resistant training because it's a pre-workout meal. So if I were to go back, like on a day that I am not, like, I think was like, was it yesterday? Yeah. Monday. Yesterday I took the kids out all day to a playground with a friend and I didn't get home until three and I fasted the whole day. I didn't have my resistance training workout. And then I had, I did OMAD. So, and there wasn't any even thought around it. It was just like, that's what happened because I got up, you know, took coffee to go and basically, you know, didn't get home until later. And then it got home, started making dinner and we ate at five. So it was like, I didn't need to have that before because I wasn't doing resistance training that day. So I think that's kind of fun to, to like, just be able to adapt to whatever your day is on days like that. I don't want to be eating multiple meals. You know, I want to just have one meal, probably maybe two, but because I'm trying to push myself in the gym to make bigger gains, that's really what I'm optimizing for right now. I'm finding that the pre-workout meal is really helping and I'm still getting the mitochondrial biogenesis because it's really the exercise that's pushing that as well as the metabolic flexibility. I thought it was the facet exercise that was doing that. And now I'm learning that it's the exercise itself. So I may as well fuel myself a bit before so that I can enjoy the workout more, get stronger and put on more muscle. So that's, that's sort of why I've been playing around with that. But again, I really admire that you have been practicing the same form for so long.

Melanie Avalon:
really the only thing that changes is the the macro breakdown. So like I've talked about a ton, you know, I basically either do high carb with that protein, or not even high fat, but I'll add fat and not have any carbs. So but it's always massive amounts of protein. I just love protein. I find it so delicious and so satiating and so amazing. It really is. One last question. Exercising in the fasted versus the fed state, does that change your, I guess just for me, I don't like the idea now of working out in the fed state. It just feels, it feels heavy in my body. Does it feel heavy at all?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so I was talking to this recent guest, Dr. Chad Kursik, about this because, you know, I was doing the facet workouts for two reasons, because I thought I was getting more mitochondrial biogenesis, which I've just learned because of Christy Storastruch's new study that I wasn't, it's the exercise that's doing the mitochondrial biogenesis, not the fasting. And so there's no, that's sort of like, that I was saying to Dr. Kursik, it didn't really matter to me, anyway, because I don't like feeling full when I'm working out. But then I realized I don't have to have a huge meal, just something small. So I started with doing just yogurt with protein powder and some strawberries. And it's a small enough meal for me that I don't feel it. Like in the sense that I'm like, oh, I'm full or like I'm bloated or, you know, if I were to sit down and have like an OMAD feast and then go work out, you know, that would not be the same situation. I don't think I would be able to work out, but a small meal, you know, I think, and I was just listening to Dr. Stacy Sims, who I'm interviewing soon. And she was on Huberman. And she was talking about this other scientist who's a woman who did research showing that having some protein before the workout has some amino acids circulating signals the body that there's fuel on board. And that's really good for women. So I'm learning more about some of the benefits of doing that. But to answer your question, it's such a small meal. And so she was saying like, she even does just sometimes like she'll make a coffee the night before with protein powder and just have that, you know, as a pre-workout. And so yeah, it doesn't bother me because it's just a small amount, you know, but that small amount does replenish the glycogen. I thought I still had enough from the night before. But Dr. Kirksik was talking about how it just refills your glycogen stores so you can push way harder. And that's what I had been noticing is I was like, smiling while I was working out. Like I was like, this is so much fun. And I'm, wow, I really feel like I can push more, I'm actually getting stronger. And that's really, you know, the sign that your VO two max is improving the sign that you are gaining strength, etc. hypertrophy, you can see, but all the other things, you know, your fitness level, your metabolic flexibility, you can tell that if you are getting stronger and faster, and you're able to do more. And so I'm finding that that is enabling me to push, push harder. And I don't feel like sluggish or, you know, in any way compromised from for the workout.

Melanie Avalon:
It's such a different experience for me to imagine. So it's really nice to hear about. And it's really exciting because it means there's so many different approaches that people can do when it comes to their fasting and their exercise and getting their protein in, and it's all doable.

Vanessa Spina:
I feel like we are in the midst of a big, you know, shift and change just, you know, in the health space. So many more people are talking about protein resistance training, especially women, and it's just a really exciting time to be in this space. And you can get it done with intermittent fasting. One of the things that was the most exciting that I was talking about with Dr. Escobar, who was the topology scientist, is we were talking about how mTOR and AMPK, I used to think of them as pathways that were completely counter-regulatory and separate from each other. So if you want, you know, the autophagy, you have to be AMPK, you have to be in the AMPK sort of pathway of breaking down catabolism, that's going to initiate autophagy, but he talked about how mTOR actually initiates autophagy. It's much more complex and not as black and white, you know, as we thought of it. So you can actually be in the mTOR, working out, eating protein, doing the resistance training, endurance training, whichever exercise you want, and be getting the autophagy. It doesn't have to be just in the breakdown mode to get the autophagy. So you kind of can get the best of both worlds. I think that's really exciting, but yeah, just the last thing I wanted to share.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's crazy and super counterintuitive. So, huh, awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. That was so incredible. So helpful. Keep me updated. Let me know when you move to formulas per day.

Vanessa Spina:
I know I'm going to be like stepping on stage with my six meal. A little six meal per day or? Yes, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Well, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. We are contemplating having guests on the show, so if you would like to submit to have your story featured on the show, like actually be interviewed by us, you can go to ifpodcast.com/submit and there is a submission form there. And then like I said, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode386. There will be a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, including I guess we should give a link for Nutrisense that people would like to get their own continuous glucose monitor for that they can go to I think it's nutrisense.com and you can use the coupon code I have podcast. Yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl. So anything from you Vanessa before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and I am really looking forward to our next episode. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. Okay. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.


Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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