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Welcome to Episode 476 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

SHOW NOTES

Use code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/hardketones for free shipping on Hard Ketones and KetoneAid. 

Frank Llosa is the CEO of KetoneAid and Hard Ketones, positions he has held since 2017. His products are used by several Tour de France teams, and his company sponsors the Quick-Step and Astana WorldTour teams. His products are also being utilized in more than a dozen clinical trials around the world.

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

 

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 476 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time. And get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, we have a very special episode today for you guys. It is with Frank Yosa, he is the founder of ketone aid and hard ketones. And this is the conversation I truly have been needing for years and years and years to learn about everything ketones and specifically exogenous ketones, as well as ketones that can give you a alcoholic buzz without the alcohol. True story. To be honest, prior to this conversation with Frank, I wasn't actually a fan of exogenous ketones. I was like, why take exogenous ketones when you can just make your own ketones? After this conversation, I'm having different thoughts. In this conversation, you will learn about the benefits of exogenous ketones, including for cognitive performance and athletic performance, how they can affect your metabolism, why you should not use them for weight loss, how to use them while fasting, tips to become keto adapted, how to amplify the effect of your caffeine without more caffeine. And of course, these incredible hard ketones, which literally provide the buzz like alcohol without actually having alcohol, mind blowing stuff. If you'd like to stock up on your own ketone aid, which is the exogenous ketones or the hard ketones, which are those non-alcoholic alcoholic ketones, which by the way, they come in pre-made drinks as well as shots, I'm going to stock up on the minty frostbite ones. You can get free shipping with the coupon code MelanieAvalon at MelanieAvalon.com slash hard ketones. That's MelanieAvalon.com slash hard ketones to stock up on exogenous ketones and or hard ketones and get free shipping with the coupon code MelanieAvalon. And now without further ado, please enjoy this special episode of the intermission fasting podcast with Frank Yosa. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have today. It is a long time coming. So the backstory on today's conversation, the way I first came across this individual, I actually don't remember the initial introduction. I just remembered the concept and the content, which was surrounding this product called hard ketones.

Melanie Avalon
And friends, I had never heard of this concept before, looked into it a little bit. And apparently it is a alcohol alternative featuring a compound called, I guess pronounced keto hall. Well, we'll talk about it on the show, promising or proposing to provide a buzz like state without the effects of alcohol and actually with potential health benefits because of the conversion to ketones that occurs in this drink. So I will.

I was overwhelmingly excited and obsessed with this idea, especially because at the time, one of my good friends was not drinking, and I'm a big wine drinker, I have my wine every night, so she was not drinking, so she ended up really loving hard ketones. Like I would have my wine, she would have her hard ketones, we were all like in a vibe. But in any case, that's when I connected with the founder, Frankie Yosa, who I'm here with today, and not only is he the founder of hard ketones, I feel like that, not that that's secondary, but he is also the founder of something listeners have probably possibly heard of before, which is ketone aid, and that is a form of ketone esters, so exogenous ketone supplementation. So when it comes to ketones, we talk occasionally about taking exogenous ketones and ketone esters, especially on the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I know there's a lot of conflicting information out there, there's a lot of controversy, there are questions about, you know, does it support your fast? Does it break a fast? How does it help your metabolism? How does it help your appetite? How does it help sports performance? Do you even need it? It's come up a lot when I've interviewed like, Luis Villanor of KetoGains, he'll talk about it. I've also had Dom D'Agostino on the show, so we talked a lot about ketones and all the things. And I am here with Frank today, and I really truly think he is the perfect person to talk to about this, because we were just chatting offline, and yeah, he definitely knows this stuff, and he has a lot of thoughts to share, and I'm really, really excited, and he has a very nuanced perspective as well. So I have so many questions. Frank has so much to share with you guys. Frank, thank you so much for all that you do, and thank you for being here.

Speaker 1
Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to...

Melanie Avalon
get into it. I've I'm really I don't know I like I can literally remember when I first came across the hard ketones thing and I was I was fascinated that I had never heard

Speaker 1
this concept before. That means I'm not doing a very good job.

Melanie Avalon
it's good. It's like it means you've got market. What's the word? Like you've owned that market. Like I haven't seen anybody else doing this is my point.

But before we like jump into all of that, I'm really curious, how did you get into the sphere? When did you first come across the concept of exhaustion as ketones? And I realized that we're talking about two different things here with the

Frank Llosa
Yeah, they're related, so I can get into that. So it started with my wife, we went to her relative's dinner party, and there was these rumblings about her godfather and how he should be given a commemorative gold medal, Olympic gold medal, because of his contribution to science and to sport. I'm like, what the hell are they talking about?

And then that's when I learned about Dr. Richard Veach. He worked at the NIH for about 40 years, trying to, he worked under Hans Krebs, so people might have heard of the Krebs cycle. So he wrote the longest paper that had Krebs name on it, but that was written by Dr. Veach. So he was the understudy, and Hans Krebs won a Nobel Prize in science. So then I went down the rabbit hole to better understand what he was doing, because he doesn't like explaining stuff from scratch, because it's kind of like, you know, 40 years. Oh, so what do you do? He just doesn't want to talk about it. So I did my own multi-hour, multi-day deep dive to understand the ketogenic diet, exogenous ketones and what he was working on so that I could hold a conversation with him.

And once I went to the next dinner party and he was there, I was able to talk and get along with him and understand what he was working on and the troubles that he had actually bringing this to market. And initially, I was helping him try to raise money because he just wanted someone to give him $20 million and then just have a tanker car of this stuff and people just line up and have a spout behind the tanker car and just make it and the world isn't that easy. So I helped him try to raise money, but the pitch didn't go too well because at that time, he wanted people to take $75 worth a day and it tasted like vomit.

So the pitch to VCs is like, okay, it tastes disgusting and it'll be $75 worth. What do you say? And meanwhile, CBD and all that stuff was taken off. So it's like, no, we'll just stick over here with the CBD route. And ultimately, he was just like, why don't you just go do it? And I was full-time in real estate, so nothing even remotely related to this. But I said, sure. And I then took the deep dive into doing it and took one to two years to actually manufacture it. When Dave Asprey bought this molecule a year before I got into this, he had it synthesized and it was like $25,000 just to make one shot of this stuff. So bringing the cost down. And just being able to scale it up is a huge task in and of itself. So we had multiple R&D labs that would sometimes compete with each other on the same task and then one would say, Oh, it's not possible. Well, thank God I hired this other one over here because they found a way to do it. And then we had a Kickstarter a year into it and I hadn't even drank it more than once because if I got a small vial of it, I'd rather send it to Ben Greenfield or Joe Rogan and like have them experience it.

Speaker 1
Like who cares what I, if I run a 400 meter, you know, sprint faster, no one's going to believe me or care. Let's send it to these guys.

So was able to build up a little bit of hype and then do a Kickstarter or Indiegogo actually on it and pre-sell a whole bunch of material that then took us another nine months to fill those orders because the way that we were making it was only like one kilo a day if we're lucky. So then having to scale that up for the next year and then several years after that, multiple levels of having to scale it up because we manufacture the whole thing. This isn't just, you know, click some button on Alibaba and buy it off of, you know, straight from China and put it into a box in the US and then say made in the US because you just literally put the bag from the right hand to your left hand and then you can say made in the US is all those tricks. So we do the manufacturing here and all the equipment. So you've got to scale it up every couple of years. You've got to buy new machinery and start all over again to scale it up. And that's been a multi-year process now. And along the way, I was understanding the differences of the different types of ketone molecules and the one that we have on the ketone ester side, it's called an ester. An ester means a bond of two ingredients, not a bond in the sense of salt being bound to an acid you put in the water and it separates. No, this is a covalent bond that stays together and it makes it more bioavailable. It helps deliver the ketones into your system and it is D-beta hydroxybutyric acid, also known as DBHB bound to this. So that's the ester, the ester is key. Some companies try to shortcut it and, oh, we'll just skip the ester and just sell it for cheaper. No, it doesn't work. So it's DBHB bound to this molecule called R13 butane dial. And once you consume it, it gets into the body, into the bloodstream. Some of it is separated in the gut, but some of it is gets all the way into the blood intact, separates and you have a fast release of DBHB free acid and then you have R13. 3-butanediol that then goes through the liver and makes a second round of D-beta hydroxybutyrate. So it's the target molecule, DBHB, bound to a molecule that converts into that target molecule. So it's super efficient. So other companies have tried to bind DBHB to glycerol. Well, okay, so half of your molecule isn't going to convert back into ketones and actually compete with your ketone. So it negates it. So you have to take twice as much because it's only half BHB, but then you might have to take four times as much because it's competing with this glycerol that might convert to glucose. It just doesn't work. So then I asked Dr. Veitch, well, if the R1-3-butanediol converts to BHB at, let's say, 70%, why not just take twice as much of that? It'd be much, much cheaper. And his answer was epic and changed the trajectory of everything. He said the mice were stumbling. When we gave it to the mice, they were drunk. And he's like, we can't have drunk grandmas. So that was thrown into the trash. And that's when I pulled it out of the trash and said, oh, I think someone might want that.

Speaker 1
Not necessarily drunk grandmas, but someone might want to have that buzz sensation in a way that would be much healthier than ethanol or even THC. And so I filed a patent on that, got a patent on that, and waited a few years into the ketone ester production to finally launch this because you've got to watch out for the shiny red apple syndrome when you're doing a startup. It's like, well, what about this idea? What about this idea? It's just it's endless.

So we really wanted to make sure that the ester side was stable. And then we finally launched the hard ketone side. And that has been another round of having to scale up and buy new equipment each step of the way. And we've been selling out of it frequently, which sounds good, but it's just not ideal when you have people on subscription and they're used to it and they like it to be like, oops, sorry, we've got either nothing or we've got to change them to one a different flavor that might not be up their alley. And yeah, that's what the R13 side that we call hard ketones and the ingredient, instead of the mouthful name of R13 butanediol, we call it keto hull. And it will raise your blood ketones, but it doesn't. We like to say different ketones, different results. So they're both technically, you could debate whether the R13 is called a ketone or a ketone precursor because it converts to ketones. But the ketone ester is more for cognition, recovery, mental clarity. People even use it for sleep. And then the hard ketones is more for after hours, relaxation. It kind of does the opposite. It's a demotivator as opposed to the ester being a motivator. So yeah, those are the two products. And Dr. Beach passed away a month before COVID kicked in and that's what launched the two concepts.

Melanie Avalon
What a cool like family party story. I thought I would be like fangirling just at the idea of like somebody who worked with Krebs. That's mind blowing to me.

It's mind blowing that things that are so just like common knowledge now about the metabolism and how everything works that the founders of those were relatively within reach general relationally to us. I don't know, because it just seems so foundational. It's, you know, it's like, oh, but he knew him. You will.

Speaker 1
absolutely dying go to heaven when you read the book, Ketones the Fourth Fuel by Travis Christofferson. It's the 250 year journey from Warburg to Krebs to Veitch and how the handoff worked and how metabolism and energy was understood and evolved. So you'll love that book.

I should read.

Melanie Avalon
heard of that book. Yeah, that would be completely right in my alley. Okay. And I'm also sorry about his passing before COVID. He definitely, my goodness, he brought a lot of goodness to the world. So thank you.

Okay, question. So you're saying the ketone aid, it is the DBHB bound to the R13, the R13 is still in there for the ketone ester?

Speaker 1
It's in there as a carrier and so if you took DBHB by itself, it would be a free acid and the pH would be too low, it burns a hole in your gut. So you need a delivery mechanism and one of the solutions is what's called BHB salts. They add a base. It's not a covalent bond. It's not really a bond at all. When you put it in water, on the left-hand side will be the BHB and the right-hand side will be the salt and that's what's called BHB salts. But the salt load on those products are so huge that they just don't work the same. It's not as efficient. It doesn't work the same. People think that it's cheaper, but I think something's more expensive if it doesn't work.

So on a cost-per-effectiveness basis, our product still is far ahead of those products and some people think that it works for them when they're doing these BHB or ketone salts. They use them just when they're entering into a ketogenic diet and they're trying to avoid the keto flu, which is what happens when you go on a ketogenic diet.

You lose a lot of water weight immediately and you sometimes will have brain fog. Things will get worse before it gets better, but I'd like to say that 80% of that issue is actually salt depletion. So ironically, you're taking these ketone salts thinking that it's getting you out of the keto flu, but it's just the salt side. You could save a whole bunch of money and just take LMNT or even cheaper, sea salt or pink Himalayan sea salt and you might experience the same thing. People that take those ketone salts while entering into a ketogenic diet, they report after a week or two that the ring doesn't fit on the ring finger anymore. Why? Because only during the adaption period do you need this super high salt load and then after that, your body is adjusted and if you still have this huge salt load, it doesn't work. So then people put it on the shelf and then they wait three months when they get kicked out of ketosis or something they want to get back in and then they take and like, oh, this is great. And it's just, it's the salt is my theory.

And then also most of those products, like 80% of them, they add caffeine and ketones, even weak ketones, drastically multiply the caffeine delivery. So what you're probably feeling if you're bouncing off the walls is the caffeine and you might say, oh, it's only 50 or 80 milligrams. Yeah, but if the ketone doubles or triples that or increases the delivery from some people have very low delivery to very high delivery, you're bouncing off the walls. That's not what ketones do. Ketones aren't a stimulant. They're not like caffeine. They are a calm focus energy. It's just a different feeling. So but people get tricked with all these add-ons and they even have keto pills that are technically Absolutely. Absolutely. it'd be like four drops of maybe even two drops of ketone escher in a pill form it just does nothing but somehow on amazon they still find a way to trick amazon to get three and a half four stars for nothing it's just it's it's pills of just nothingness but they sell 4 000 reviews on them it's like all right so a lot of people are just buying these things that do nothing

Melanie Avalon
With the amplification of the caffeine is that just when the caffeine is taken literally directly alongside a ketone supplement or if you're in ketosis and have high blood ketones would it does that also?

Speaker 1
amplify caffeine doesn't need to be taken at the same time it can be a few hours later I've even had people say you know they took it out of trade show and they're bouncing off the walls and I said well how long ago did you take caffeine like two hours ago I'm like yeah that still happens so yes also if you go full keto and you take regular caffeine yeah you're gonna notice it more a lot more so either cut it in half half decaf or cut it out completely you know if you can and we have protocols to help people get off of caffeine all together as this one lady we guarantee our product we give our money the money back even if we find someone doesn't like and they didn't even ask for their money back I like hunt them down and I refund them and they're like what are you doing like I don't want your money but now that I've given you your money back the stress is down now let me show you how to use it and about 80% of the time it works but you know 20% it doesn't work but for caffeine this lady talked to her about it for about a half an hour and she said oh no it didn't work find out that she was taking six cups of coffee and then she was she cut it down to zero and took the ketones and felt nothing I'm like well what do you normally feel when you don't have six cups of coffee oh I'm irritable brain fog and you didn't have any of those and no it didn't didn't feel anything like well ma'am that that's a tough crowd because that yeah you basically removed a stimulant drug from your system and basically got back to break even with the ketones that's the best you should expect especially with low dose I say hey if you want to feel it tomorrow go back to your six cups of coffee and drink this and you'll be bouncing off the walls I don't recommend that but then you won't be like oh this doesn't work you'll feel something and people always want to feel something but yeah helping people get off of caffeine so that you know after 30 or 40 days of being off of the caffeine you could probably lower your ketonester dose and not you won't need as much because you're not trying to overcome that that big deficit that you'll have for you know a month and a half

Melanie Avalon
Well, I will say, one thing I love about your site is, and I'm getting it now more speaking it to you. I understand why it's like this. It's very approachable in the way it's written, like the copy on it and just in your face. It's funny.

I was reading through the site, prepping this. I was like, this is well-written, the site. It's very real.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I love to point out the positives and the negatives because I think people, the more negatives you talk about something, the more they believe the positives. If you're all 100% all the positives, they're just going to be like, okay, there we go again. And it just sounds.

Melanie Avalon
Not believable and also to this point you're talking about all these misconceptions and everything and I mentioned before this offline that We talk about because we get questions on the intermittent fasting podcast historically We used to get way more questions and I feel like I feel like there was a time when ketone esters were Like the thing why I don't know like everybody was talking about them or maybe just on my podcast people were talking about them But we would get questions all the time and I was always Hesitant because I found that The reason people were mostly asking the questions to us like our audience specifically was because there was this idea that taking Exogenous ketones was like the way to to get into ketosis or to like be better at ketosis to help them lose weight and I was and I just kept thinking and this is what we would talk about law on the show is You know, if you're like if your goal is weight loss, for example Ideally, you would be burning you would be creating ketones from your body fat that you're burning off Not just taking it in, you know as an exogenous source So I'm curious. I have so many questions surrounding this.

I'm curious What was your because I don't know if you mentioned when you first, you know met Veach and was learning everything Like what was the benefit you were most intrigued by and that you were looking for and then the state Of being in ketosis and producing endogenous ketones. Is that at all any different to the body? Signaling wise from exogenous ketones like this the body even know where they came from

Speaker 1
when they're in the body. Okay, we can go through that. So Veach's initial goal was for mental clarity. And one concept really helps make it more clear is from Steve Koonane. He talks about the brain energy gap. The older you get, the less the glucose can make it to your brain to fully fuel the brain. And for the most part, the brain can be fueled by two fuels, glucose and ketones, or sugar and ketones. But most people are experiencing sugar because there's, Veach used to say, a McDonald's around every corner. So they've never really experienced the ketone and they have glucose. But when you have traumatic brain injury or the older you get, it's like a traffic jam of glucose trying to make it to the brain. And taking more glucose makes more of a traffic jam and it doesn't get to the system. So Steve Koonane talks about a brain energy gap saying, well, if the brain is only being fueled by 70% and adding more glucose doesn't get you to 100, it actually can make it worse.

Adding ketones, it uses a different pathway. It's a different HOV lane that kind of bypasses that blockage and fills the gap. If you're already at 100% and you take exogenous ketones, especially at low dose, you probably won't feel anything because it's like putting extra gas into a gas tank that's already full, like it doesn't do much. But people that have TBI, they take it and they're just like three sec, under a minute later, they're looking up at me and I say, what position did you use to play in football? They're like, how'd you know I played football? Because when people look at me that way, I know that it just hit them because they don't realize that they have this bigger gap until that gap is filled. And then you're like, oh wow, this is what I felt like 10 years before I was in that sport. So that was his main goal was for mental cognition. He actually wasn't a fan of ketogenic diet. He thought people won't change what they eat. So just drink more ketones. That was kind of his stance. I'm more in the, hey, let's at least try to give some people the option of ketogenic diet. And I've even talked to some doctors that, or patients that say your doctor didn't mention this to you. And they said, the doctor only mentioned it after I asked about it. And the doctor said, yeah, you could do that, but it's really hard. And the patient's just like, well, isn't that my choice to decide if something's hard? Like give me the options and I can be the 10% that will do it, but some doctors won't even recommend it because, oh, compliance is so bad. But if your condition is such that a ketogenic diet helps you on an everyday basis for nearly free, it should be no brainer. It should be more often explained to the patients for them to decide whether they'd rather have junk food or brain fog. As far as the body knowing the difference, yeah, it's probably going to know the difference within dodgeness because more things are going on. It's not just one, the BHB might be one of the three ketone bodies in the system.

Speaker 1
taking that one is going to be different than going to the Krebs cycle and burning fat and making it so it's going to be a little bit different. So I like to say that it mimics many of the benefits, but not all the benefits. And even on our website, we have a chart of like different times you can take it pre work out first thing in the morning before bed. And then it has a line for weight loss. And I just put like red X all the way across.

I don't even want to be in that if you want weight loss, go take those impact, whatever. It's not something that we recommend because mostly because of the misunderstanding of how it works. People think that they can eat a cake and then take ketones and somehow it negates the eating of the cake. Oh, look, I've got ketones in my blood. I'm burning fat now that I ate that cake. No, it doesn't work that way. And one of the confusing things is this concept of ketosis, the scientific phrase for ketosis, technically means ketones in the blood. Okay, but that's not what the consumer hears when they hear the word ketosis. So these other companies might say puts you in ketosis in 20 minutes, and they're not technically lying. But the consumer hears puts you in fat burning mode in 20 minutes. That's why I like to say it does not put you in ketosis. And I even coined the phrase exogenous ketosis and endogenous ketosis to actually differentiate the two, it actually skips the fat burning phase and puts ketones in your blood. So it doesn't it doesn't backtrack to make you burn more fat. So people think that they can cheat more. So you can gain weight by taking exogenous ketones, if you think that you're on a ketogenic diet, and this allows you to have more cheat meals, so you're gonna eat worse, it's not going to do what you think.

And you could gain weight in theory if it makes you cheat more. So but can someone use it in fasting? And does it break a fast? You actually mentioned that. And someone just asked me that the other day. And I love that question. Does it break a fast? I like to say, don't think of it that way. Think of it as, let's say you're already able to fast until 10am. If you otherwise would have eaten food that would have broken a fast. But if you take the exogenous ketones or the ketone ester to take you to 2pm to extend your fast, Does it break a fast? I don't know. Who cares? You just had 10 calories and you just got another four hours longer fast That's gonna that is gonna help fat burning more than eating that hamburger So it can be used by a practitioner that's teaching it properly to their patients If you have problems skipping breakfast, then sure you can try and take this Sometimes as low as like one capful like two dollars worth can help people skip breakfast But I like to say if after a week or two and your body gets used to skipping breakfast And you take half a capful and does the same thing and then you stop taking it all together and you're skipping breakfast Well, that's better. You're having no calories and you have just done, you know regular fasting it gets confusing But that's that's how I try to explain it

Melanie Avalon
So what is the actual literal caloric load of taking whatever dose of taking the different doses? I'm just curious.

Speaker 1
actual dose? The caloric load. Yeah, it's technically 12 grams per serving, but let's define what a serving is. Dr. Veach initially wanted an entire bottle to be one serving taken three times a day. So that was like 120 calories, three times a day.

But what we found after we launched it was people were taking half of a bottle and that was $30, $25, $30, three times a day. People were taking half of a bottle and it was effective. A quarter of a bottle was effective. It just kept on going down and down. And before you know it, the cap became our, what do we call it, serving size. And I like to say that the one cap is what we call one serving.

But that's the minimum effective dose that a sensitive female might feel. So many people will take two capfuls once or twice a day. That's kind of a typical amount. But the Tour de France riders, after a five-hour ride and they're trying to recover, they'll drink the entire $25 bottle straight up, the 10, 12 servings worth. So the word serving is a little bit tricky and confusing and I try to teach people how to take as little as possible because sometimes we've had people say, oh, it actually made me more hungry. I said, well, that's great because what happened was when you take a higher amount, it drops your blood sugar sometimes too much.

And when you get below a certain amount, then it will actually make you more hungry. So the solution for that person is take half. So it'll cost half as much and oftentimes that will work. We've had some people take it pre-workout when they're about to use the energy. But then they got diverted from the workout to go drive their kid. And this was a nurse and her blood sugar dropped to, I don't know, 65, 70 and that was just on, I don't know if it was one or two capfuls because she didn't use that energy right away in that workout. Instead, it was just sitting there and it dropped her blood sugar. So if she had taken the entire bottle worth, I don't know if it's a linear correlation with the blood sugar, but different amounts for different people and for different uses.

And again, if you already have your brain, if your focus is clarity and your brain is already at 100%, one or two capfuls, you're probably not going to feel much. You could try a higher amount, but then it becomes not economical. And there was this misconception with the Keto Master early on that it was super crazy expensive and tasted like jet fuel. And there was a Tim Ferriss podcast where a guy took an early version, didn't follow the directions to mask it, took it at like 6 a.m. and it was in his head. thinking, if I throw this up onto a counter, I'm going to have to eat it because it's so expensive and he's going through this epic, disgusting narrative. And now we have a few versions. One where it's actually not bad called ketone shot, where it's six times more diluted and it's fine. And if you can further dilute it in water, it's just like a peach squeezed in, nothing. You don't taste it.

Speaker 1
But our concentrate, which is 50% ketone ester, it's still rough, but many people get used to it and don't mind it. But it's not as bad as the marine putting one drop on their knuckle and just having to literally tear the Pepsi can out of their friend's hands to try to chase it immediately.

So we've come a long way on the taste and protocols of how to use it using less. Part of the reason that the high doses was initially recommended was because the mice would only take it with food. So then the dosing that would be correlated to humans was different when a human's taken it fasted on an empty stomach, you can take much, much less. So that was also part of the reduction in people just not needing as much. So we recommend people take it on an empty stomach, one, if not two hours beforehand. And people say, well, when can I eat again? Well, if you have brain fog and it helps your brain fog when you eat again, it might stop that, you know, it might stop that benefit because once glucose gets in the system, your body, even though they like to say the brain prefers ketones, sure, a fire pit prefers coal. But if you put kindling on it, it's going to burn the kindling. So that's kind of what ketones versus sugar, sugar is the kindling that wants to burn up really fast, even though it's healthier to have a sustained, you know, slower burning.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so here, this is making me think of a question that I've actually had for quite a long time, because I'm thinking about the example that you gave of somebody who is getting new to fasting, for example, and they might benefit in the beginning from using these ketone esters to or like ketone aid to, you know, mitigate the hunger and then, you know, maybe they're taking it at breakfast and lunch to fast and then they don't need it as much at breakfast. So the, because we use this word, like keto adaption, or like people are like keto adapted or fat adapted or whatever it may be, is that because there are debates about there about like the keto flu.

And people will say, Oh, it's a lack of electrolytes or people say your body has to learn how to make ketones. So I'm curious when you were talking about like taking ketone aid and the form that it's in with the DBHB and the R13, am I saying it right? The whole metabolic conversion process that happens. And then mentioning people, you know, needing time or maybe like taking a while to experience the full benefits of ketosis easily. The question is, is does the body have to learn how to create and use ketones? And if so, or if not, either way, does taking exogenous ketones like teach the body how to use ketones?

Speaker 1
No, I don't think it does. So let's go into keto flu and you're kind of conflating two things because you can do intermittent fasting and eat cake and not be keto, right? So you can eat once a day and it's all sugar. Some people do that. And that's not necessarily going to be the same as ketosis. So we'll get into that.

The keto flu is people entering into a ketogenic diet. People love it because you lose four or five pounds the first couple of days, even though it's just water. Water doesn't really count, but people like it because of the scale. They look at the scale. It goes down. And in a very high, simplistic manner, every molecule of glucose is bound to a molecule or two of water. So less glucose in your system. Your system flushes out the water and you're urinating the whole bunch and your scale goes down and you're not necessarily thirsty. You're just holding on to this water bloating unnecessarily. I like to say that the keto flu is 80% electrolytes. And when we first got into this, my wife was my guinea pig and she was doing this biohacking stuff 10 years ago and she was very sensitive to stuff. She was on in the bed, eyes bulging, heart racing, headache, like, what did you do to me? I'm like, this must be the keto flu that I didn't experience as much of. And I called up Veatch or someone and they said to give her like 10 salt pills. I'm like, aren't I going to overdose her like 10 pills? And he's like, no, it's just salt. That's what they would do in the hospital. They give you an IV of salt within 15 minutes. She was fine.

So when your body flushes out all of that water, you lose a lot of salt, grams of salt, and you're not replenishing it. And salt is metal. It's they call it sexually electrolytes, but it conducts energy and electricity through your system. So if you're low on salt, that can happen. And we even had one lady who was 80 years old. Her doctor said to go keto and she was the next day or two, she was in the hospital and I talked to her and I said, oh, I can guess what it was. She said, how can you know what it was? It took them two hours to figure it out. And two of them were from Harvard. I said, they put you on a saline drip and you were fine in 20 minutes. And she goes, how did you know that? Like, because the doctor didn't teach you how to do keto and it just didn't increase your salt load. And people say, oh, I put more salt in my eggs. I like to say, did you unscrew the top? Because like shake, shake, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a lot of salt. So I think 80 percent of it is salt.

The other part problem is that your salt, that your sugar load is going down. And for a period of time, your body hasn't kicked in to start making ketones. So you have low sugar, no ketones, and you're in this state of just no fuel.

Speaker 1
So some people like to do it slowly, you know, one week. 10 days and I even heard about it in the conference.

They're saying to do it slowly And I looked at the person next to me who was not in that camp It's like why would you recommend that when you can do this other way which is just peel off the band-aid So how do you peel off the band-aid a couple things you can just do a 24-hour fast with or without ketone ester 24-hour fast and your body just Runs out of glucose and it more quickly will shift as opposed to being in this limbo land You can do wind sprints get on a stationary bike or wind sprint 3045 seconds can help deplete that what I call like a battery glycogen battery You need that to be zero and every time you do a cheat day it fills up the battery So you have to start all over again and slowly burn the battery down You can do it over 10 days five days three days or pull off the band-aid with a 24 48 hour flask Fast heck schedule a colonoscopy. They make you not eat for two days.

It's perfect perfect timing do that You know get your pipes checked. So a lot of it assault, but it can be this depletion You can use the ketone ester Some people have used it during that transition period when the when there's an imbalance There's you're not making ketones yet and and the sugar is low It can help a little bit with that people have done it that way But then as far as people who are not ketogenic, but then they're doing the intermittent fasting.

That's a slightly separate thing I don't think the taking the ketones makes your body signal to okay. Now let's burn fat. Let's get used to it I think that there's something else and this is not very scientific. I'm not a doctor not a scientist But I think there's something more to the gut and the pattern of skipping breakfast Getting used to skipping breakfast your body Having that grumble and saying you know what that grumble switched that narrative to be oh, I gotta go eat food That grumble is hey, if you don't give me food, especially glucose right now I'm gonna start burning fat You know Convert the narrative to that and you're like, okay, go ahead great You know that that rumble that means it's starting and then you just I think if you do that for a week or two Your body doesn't wake up craving it anymore. And I don't think that's necessarily fat burning or keto adaption. I think that's just your body Getting used to a rhythm of I have food three times a day nine twelve seven I'm going to rumble at half an hour after each one of those times you move that schedule And stick to it for a while your body just Doesn't expect or demand food

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, it does. I'm thinking it through in real time in my head.

I would love to see a study where people have been eating a non-macronutrient restricted diet, so they're having their carbs still and all the things. And half of them, though, are using exogenous ketones at some point and then the other half aren't. And then have them go on to a daily fasting schedule or even a keto diet. One of the examples you mentioned about the ways to get there, I would be so curious if the group that had been supplementing exogenous ketones historically, if they at all just transitioned faster or easier or if it literally is just based on... It'd be easier because...

Speaker 1
Because your first five days, you have no exogenous ketones, you're just flat out not eating breakfast and you're used to having breakfast for the last 30 years. You're going to be annoyed, you're going to be distracted, you're going to be thinking about food.

So yeah, it does help that and I have not seen a trial that compares that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so like basically it does like prime the system in a way to be more comfortable and adaptable with jumping into this.

Speaker 1
Sure, it helps suppress the appetite so that the you're not eating and then your body gets used to not eating at that time frame and Then yeah, it makes it easier

Melanie Avalon
reading about Owen and Cahill and their commentary on Beech's approach to exogenous ketones. And apparently they did a study and they found that in a three-day fast, ketones were the preferred fuel source for muscles during a three-day fast.

But the study participants switched to burning free fatty acids after 24 days of fasting. So with really, really extended fasting, it looks like the body switches back to free fatty acids. Well, the K

Speaker 1
Yale studies, he was, I think, 20 to 40 years older than Beech. So that was, I think, in the 1960s when they did a multi-day fast that they would never be allowed to do today. They called it the Jesus Fast, it was 20 to 30 days, and Dr. Beech makes some jokes about it.

If you want to hear a podcast, basically the only podcast that Beech did because he was all about, read the goddamn papers, and I brought him kicking and screaming because other people were being crowned as the king of ketones, and I was like, no, you need to get on podcasts. He's like, I don't want to be. So it's a Dave Asprey podcast, I think it's $299 or $300, and you'll see a two-hour deep dive of him, and I make a cameo at the end about how I was doing ketogenic diet, and I was able to hit like eight mil molar just on the diet with no exogenous ketones. But with the Cahill study, they were, I think, yeah, Beech joked about them being on a Jesus fast, and they were theologians. I don't know if that was true or not, but yeah, they fasted them for multiple days, and they showed that the brain could run exclusively on ketones, that it didn't need glucose when ketones were available. I'm not familiar with what exactly it might have done to muscles deciding what fuel to make, because if you go fasted too long, you will burn muscle to make fuel out of that. So there is always that, you have to watch out for it, which is why when people do the exercise, you're basically going to be fasting, you're going to be losing weight, but you're going to be losing muscle. And if you don't pay the extra $100 to do a DEXA full body scan at the beginning, and then every three months to make sure that your muscle is not being lost, because if the muscle gets lost, the moment that you get off those GLP ones, you're going to actually be exponentially worse than your baseline. So it will eat muscle if you fast.

Melanie Avalon
You know too much. Yeah, and i'm really curious with the because there's so much information out there about people like losing muscle And all the things and I really wonder though how much of that is people just Not paying any attention to protein intake or anything like that.

They're just severely calorie restriction restoring

Speaker 1
Yeah, sure. I mean, there are, you know, you could, yeah, you can focus on eating. If you're going to be eating fewer calories, maybe it should be higher on the protein side. And then there are some protein supplements, like perfect aminos, just to kind of crank up another food is best. But if you can supplement on top of that, but it still has to do with going to the gym. Like, I don't think just eating the protein is going to be enough.

I think you have to actually work out your body and actually think that's where GLP ones can actually work well with the ketone ester. And one researcher recently is saying that they were doing some studies combining the two, but she didn't really know how best to combine them. And I was explaining my theory is that the ketone ester will help with GLP ones because GLP ones, when you're fasted, your lower energy and lower motivation to go to the gym, and you actually need to be going to the gym more. So it's like this counter, okay, I'm losing weight, but now I have lower energy because you're not getting calories. But then you try to go to the gym and you're just half-assing, and it's just not working, or you're just less motivated, or you go less frequently, because you're just tired. That's when the ketone ester can actually kick in, not for appetite suppression, but for energy, a low caloric energy that will help you get motivated and make that gym experience better, because you really need to be building that weight, not running, not jogging. And I have a track background, so for me to say that is tough, but just hyper-focused on muscle building three times a week, if not more. But the DEXA scan is key, key, key. If I hear someone that's on a GLP one and they're not getting a DEXA scan, I'm just like, why bother? I know it costs another hundred bucks, but you need to know where your muscle mass is, and you need to maintain that. It'll slow down your weight loss, but who cares about weight? If your muscle's the same, that's what you want. You don't want to be losing muscle and losing fat and make your weight loss appear faster. You want it to be a sustainable system, so you got to keep your muscle up, and more muscle is more weight, but your pants will still fit much better, because muscle's more compact than fat.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we are major fans of supporting muscle around here. So you mentioned, you know, that you did track and so your products are actually used by several Tour de France teams.

So what are the effects on endurance and athletic performance?

Speaker 1
That's a tricky thing. People want it to work like caffeine. They want it to be a no-brainer, pop a pill of caffeine, 15 minutes later, you know what it does.

Ketone ester is very tricky. So there's a no-brainer protocol, which is for recovery. So taking it immediately after the five-hour Tour de France ride, that's how most of the Tour de France riders use it. And we've got videos of athletes, Mark Cavendish, who broke the world record for the most number of stage wins the day before he won the last and final stage to break that record. And there's a whole Netflix on him trying to break the record. He had to do a mountain climb, and he was just exhausted. And the sprinters, which is his cup of tea, if they don't cross the finish line within a certain number of minutes from the first person, you get cut. And so it's really hard for them. So he was dying, dying, dying. And when he finished, he was like, where are my ketones? The first thing that came into his mind was, where are my ketones? And this is not paid for. This is not something that we could script. And they lost it. They couldn't find it. Like, I don't know. And he's like, where is it? And he's looking to the left and the right. And the assistant's like, you know, looking through the bag, and they're like, oh, it's over there. And he finds it, and he grabs it, and he chugs it. And it's like this Disney World moment of, like, you're just on the Super Bowl. Where are you going? I'm going to Disney World, going to Disneyland. And you know, he chugs it. So these riders take it immediately after their five hours to help for recovery.

So there's been clinical trials that show 15% improvement in recovery on overtraining. So 21 day workouts of overtraining with the group with the ketonester when they did the time trial was 15% faster. And the last day of, or the day before workout, they were able to do 15% more watts. So it's massive and pretty brainless on that side. Now a customer should ask, wait a second, he's taking a full bottle. And here you are saying, take, you know, two or three cap fulls. That's a big difference. So the clinical trials are always about more is better. And what's the maximum they can take without GI problems. And that's what they test. And that's what works. And then the Tour de France riders will follow that. But we found consistently, people have been able to take less. It hasn't been proven scientifically. So I like it when these ketone companies say, backed by science and stuff like that. It's like, well, okay, but the science isn't necessarily the best way to use this. So people have found benefit as low as one or two cap fulls.

If you're running a marathon, yeah, sure. You might chug half of a bottle or a full bottle of the KE4 right afterward. So yeah, so the Tour de France riders will mainly use it then, but then they also use it immediately before bed, which is very counterintuitive.

Speaker 1
People think, again, of this as caffeine and it's not a caffeine source. I mean, some people take tablespoons of honey before bed. It's more like that. It's a calorie that's replenishing the system.

They take a huge dose before bed, which, again, if you did that without doing a five-hour workout, you would be up cleaning your closet for the next three hours. So some customers will take, female sensitive people will take as little as half of a cap full immediately before bed. Some people will take two cap fulls, so it very much varies. I can't take any before bed because I'm already keto. I'm keto vegan. I've been like that seven, eight years. And if I already have a baseline of ketones and I add a cap full, I'm like, oh, I want to get a better night's sleep. It doesn't work for me.

It makes my brain turn on and, you know, that's no good. However, if there's a night like recently where I went to bed and I was just super tired, it was one or two a.m., and I had to wake up early for a flight. Then I knew I could actually take a larger amount because I knew I was so tired that I'd go to sleep, even if I took four cups of coffee. And that's when I woke up like a spring chicken. My wife was like, you only got four hours of sleep last night. How are you like the first one getting up helping the kids? And that's what the ketones do when it works. But you have to be aware, if you are keto, I don't tend to recommend it except for occasions that you're super tired, you ran a marathon or you're up super late or you're a night worker and your schedule is all messed up.

So the Tour de France people reliably, immediately afterward and before bed. There are a few riders that have found their own protocol. And Dr. Dog, who is a coach for one of these teams, like to say, everyone has to make their own protocol. Like, we'll try different things, but what works for you? We have had mega responders have been able to take a full bottle every hour and held on to the yellow jersey for multiple days. And it wasn't expected. So he was leading the Tour de France with multiple bottles. But some people are scared of taking it during the ride. And I think what happens is they take too much and then their blood sugar drops, and then they feel blocked is what they say, that they're not able to tap into the glucose. And there's this concept in the science world called glycogen sparing, which sounds sexy, like glycogen sparing, and then you can turn it on when you need it. I like to think of it more as glycogen blocking. Glycogen blocking is also sparing, right? But then you can't tap into it. So I don't recommend taking this. in a four hour race right before you're about to sprint because your blood sugar is gonna drop and you might not be able to tap into it as well. But there are strategic ways I think to take it that some of the Tour de France riders are more reluctant to do without, hey, show me a clinical trial, will they prove this? And it's like, well, that'll be five years.

Speaker 1
Meanwhile, the other riders are doing this and you're missing out, but it's up to you. But taking it altitude exponentially helps better at altitude. It has to do with the heart efficiency and just it makes it that 6,000 meters feel like 3,500, 4,000 meters. So it helps with altitude.

It helps with drastic temperature. So super cold, super hot. It helps with hill climbs. There's more mitochondria in your slow twitch muscles. So you're pedaling. Oftentimes it's the same cadence, but when you go up a hill, you're going to be slowing down your cadence. So it's like doing a stair master and there's more mitochondria in the muscles. So it does more for that. So people might take it right before a hill climb. I asked this one guy, Anthony Kunkel, who's done, he won the American 50 kilometer, 50 miler race a few years back. I said to him, if you had someone taking ketone estrogen, you only had one chance, because this is how it is sometimes. You should try it five or 10 times in different ways, but sometimes some people are very skeptical. If you had one chance, how would you take it? And he said, go out for a run, whether it's one mile that's hard for you or a hundred miles that's hard for you. Whenever your brain starts to go, because the glucose just doesn't make it to the brain, when you're doing these longer workouts, your brain just starts getting taxed and starts doubting why you're doing this and starts making, you start compromising with, well, maybe if I drop it down 10 seconds slower, I'll still do okay. That is when he recommends taking the ketones toward the end of whatever workout you're doing where your brain starts to go and it'll snap your brain back, because I think that has to do with the brain energy gap problem.

The glucose isn't making it to the brain. You give this alternative fuel and your brain feels the same as the beginning of the workout. Then you're like, you know what, I can do this. And you have a better mood and you can push your muscles more. Some people like to take a pre-workout, but they like this concept called a dual fuel. It's super sexy and easy to put in marketing ads, but I don't necessarily agree with it. This concept of sugar and ketones, like two fuels. Okay, there are people that works for them, but that's not, when I have one or two chances with someone, that's not the route that I take because it's gonna be 50-50, but people on their own tried it and half the time it worked, the other half, might give us a two-star on Amazon.

The way that I like to recommend using it changes so many things. It's easier to take it immediately before bed. And immediately after the workout, that's the brainless. But then if you actually want to try doing it in the rides, that's where it gets tricky. Because I think that the glucose and the ketones actually kind of compete with each other, not this dual fuel concept. So then that's, okay, well, let's talk about fasted workouts. Let's talk about, you know, doing fasted workouts and adding ketones to it.

Speaker 1
And there's some message boards or they're either keto runners or they're fasted workout people and they say, oh, I don't need ketones because I make my own, which is a very sexy sounding thing. And I just laugh because it's like a glucose-based person that eats all these gels saying, I'm not going to drink, you know, my body makes glucose, I'm not going to drink gels because my body makes them. Well, no, those people are adding gels on top of their glucose sugar-based system. So if you're doing fasted workouts, adding ketones on top of what your body's already making, that's kind of like a dual fuel. You got endogenous ketones, your body's making ketones and you're topping it off with exogenous because glucose-based riders, when they do, sometimes they will do one or two fasted workouts a week, but they expect their watts to go down. They go down five or 10% and they just, that is what it is. And then why do they do it? Because it helps for burning fat, it helps for weight loss for the rider if they want to just be more of a stick. And it helps for recovery. The next day, they're not as sore as they can do more hard workouts and you're still building the muscles, even if your watts are lower.

But when you add ketones to those fasted workouts, it brings people back to their glucose baseline. So now you have the best of both worlds. You have the anti-inflammatory, not as sore the next day, but the same watts and the fat burning because the amount of calories of this is tiny compared to glucose. So you've got to be burning something. And so fasted workouts is where it is also a no-brainer. So if someone already does a fasted workout, having them add 10 mLs an hour, 5 mLs an hour, they oftentimes will notice something immediately. Now if someone is normally taking a whole bunch of sugar and a whole bunch of caffeine before their workout and they drop all of that and they try to go for ketones, hit or miss sometimes, but it's just going to be different. You're running on a different fuel source. It's not going to be as predictable. The next day, you're going to be less sore, so you're going to forget about that benefit because you win races based on your ability to work out and recover. That's where the goldmine is, not race day. So fasted workouts. We're even playing with a new protocol for people that are more interested in exploring this concept of doing short term keto before the race. So the exact opposite of carb loading, go to the pasta shop and get all you can eat buffet and load up on carbs the night before doing the opposite and actually going keto. So glucose based all along the week and month before that, but then three or four days before going full keto. And I had this one guy do it because he was every small suggestion that I had given him and worked. He was like, okay, well, what else you got? Let's go down the rabbit hole. Let's try it all. And I had him go short term keto. He had never gone keto before pre-race, which is hard from the concept. And I didn't tell him about the water loss thing. And he calls me up after day two or three and he's like, I'm just going to the bathroom a lot.

Speaker 1
Like, is that normal? Like, yeah, you're losing water, but you're not more thirsty. And when he started on the starting line, he was three or four pounds lighter. And even one of his friends was like, hey, I saw you last week and like, you look different. All of that inflammation is gone. He's four pounds lighter. He just spent, you know, God knows thousands of dollars on this bike that might be a half a pound lighter and he just dropped four pounds. Like, what is that worth?

Your muscle is going to have the same strength. It's not like you're going to lose muscle in those three or four days. And with cycling, it's a lot about the watts per kilogram or watts per pound of the rider. And if you drop four pounds, that changes that ratio a lot.

So he was able to do three or four days pre-race keto and then just use ketonester and salts during the entire four hour ride. No gel packs. His friend was like, here, take a gel pack just in case you run out of fuel or bonk. And it didn't happen.

His friend bonked and he had like, you know, five, 10 gel packs. But you know, you don't want to jump straight into that. You got to really practice that. People call us all the time saying, hey, what do I do? I've got a race in two days and I've never used this. I say, don't use it. It took you 10 years to figure out the size of the banana in your marathon. And now you're just going to like absolutely change everything.

Like don't do that. What you can do is do some pre-loading. That's another protocol that's low risk, which has taken it a week, seven days or even one or two days before your race to help just build mitochondria and help just recover. So that as if you're tapering for the Olympics and you're just more recovered for that race day.

Does that answer your question of like how they use it? It's really. quite tricky and tailored to everyone and a lot of people are just very reluctant they want to do parts of the equation and not all of it they wanna i can't stop my caffeine okay well then you're in the bathroom in your marathon. Because you had the runs cuz access caffeine gives you the runs another thing that the ketones do is make you what we found this not been scientifically proven trying to prove it but time and time again feedback from customers. Drops the heart rate 7 beats per minute but recently a customer said hey you said that it would lower my heart rate but the heart rate was actually 10 beats higher what's going on i said did you look at your pre workout drink did it have caffeine in it and he looks at it he's like oh yeah. So the ketones multiply the caffeine and caffeine is known to increase the heart rate so then he had the doubling effect in the wrong direction so the next time you cut out the caffeine and it. Drop down 7 beats so a 14 beats per minute for the same what's difference and that can be pretty huge if you're if you're able to be lower heart rate at the same what's that allows you to. Be glycogen sparing because you're not tapping into you know high heart rate glucose needs you can stay in that fat burning zone.

Melanie Avalon
Longer. Wow. Okay, so many things. Sorry. That was a fire hose.

No, I love it so much It's interesting because when you were saying how You know people say that they do that the double fuel or whatever and they do the glucose and the ketones I was thinking how that's literally the complete opposite of what I Try to do like I I probably to an unhealthy extent I get worried about this concept of energy toxicity and just like too much for the system So I try to always either be like ketone fat burning or Carbs like not not both at the same time I just don't think that would work for me very very well And I like the sleep piece and if listeners go to your website So they can either go to ketone a.com or hard ketones calm It will go to the same website and by the way the coupon code Melanie Avalon will get you a discount But more on that in a bit you have a lot of studies there And so listeners can check that out and like I was reading one like you mentioned about the sleep and it was literally It was literally supporting what you just said because it was talking about, you know athletes taking ketones for recovery for sleep and it specifically found Let's see that it helped there it helped the decrease in REM sleep that they normally would have Experienced and the increase in wakefulness after sleep onset improved sleep efficiency by 3% So that's yeah, that's anything. Yeah

Speaker 1
Yes, I agree with those. They also probably took high dose and they also were riding for five hours.

So if you go to Amazon and you search for the reviews, you look up the word sleep, you'll find more realistic real world experiences, which aren't scientific. But people saying, hey, I went to sleep with my cell phone on my chest, I know I shouldn't, but I took the S right before and I woke up the next morning and the cell phone was still on my chest. Normally, I get up two to three times asleep or roll left to right and I just was a mummy for eight hours. Or people saying, hey, I get a cortisol spike at 2 or 3 a.m. and I have to go to the bathroom or I get up and then I'm up for two hours and then small amount of ketonesia, they just skip that. They just stay asleep. We don't know why, especially the super low dose. It's not about testing your blood ketones and saying, oh, is it 0.5, 0.2, 1.5? It's just some sort of signaling thing that is happening that is just making people feel better. And initially, for the first two years, we said not to take it before bed, but then Travis Christofferson, the guy who wrote the book, he said, no, no, Frank, I took 10 mLs last night and oh my God, I slept like a baby, you got to try it. I'm like, what are you doing? You don't want to have energy before bed. He's like, no, you got to look into it. And for him, it was 10 mLs on the higher amount, but most people have a cap for one to one cap full. And we even have on our Facebook group where we chat about the good and the bad and people text us when things don't work, I say, hey, go to the Facebook group. And like they said, you want me to talk about the negative of it not working there? I'm like, yeah, so we can all troubleshoot and all learn. And on the Facebook group, people post photos of their nightstand being ruined with little one inch circles by having the KU4 on their nightstand. I'm like, sorry, because it'll drip down a little bit on the side and they take it immediately before bed, not a half an hour before bed. Mistakenly, people will do that or an hour before it doesn't help you go to sleep. It's more about helping you stay asleep. But we've helped people get off of two or three sleep medicines as well. They take one sleep medicine, but then they have to take another medicine for the side effects of that first medicine before, you know, they're taking two or three. And then, you know, with their doctor's permission, of course, don't do anything without the doctor, they were able to, you know, cut that out and just use this. And some people even wake up 15 minutes early and they're worried. They're like, hey, I got less sleep, like, yeah, but you felt better, right? Like, yeah, well, your body got what it needs. And you know, what do you charge per hour, 50, 100 bucks an hour? You just.

Melanie Avalon
save 25 bucks. No, I love this real world application. And now I'm thinking more, okay, so because you asked me before if I had taken them and I hadn't, and it was historically because of a lot of the reasons that we discussed, leading up to this, which is, I was thinking while I get into ketosis on my own with fasting, I don't do intense athletic performance. Now I'm just thinking about it more.

I don't struggle with like skipping breakfast or skipping lunch, but I do, I do a one meal a day pattern every single day. And I eat right before bed and it's very high protein and then it's either low carb or low fat. And so it's normally, or to say it alternatively, it's either high carb or actually I don't really go super high fat. So it's either low carb or it's like high carb, low fat. And usually it's the high carb, low fat. So like lots of protein, lots of fruit. So I'm just thinking like practically when or how would this best benefit me to integrate into my life. Do you have any brain.

Speaker 1
fog or sundown in effect at 3 or 4 p.m. and do take caffeine.

Melanie Avalon
So ironically cuz I just launched a coffee line, so I'm all about coffee But I don't do I don't drink a lot of coffee. Actually. I don't have a lot of caffeine.

I don't really Experience brain fog. I mean I will get tired and take naps Occasionally, especially if I went out the night before I'm pretty consistent

Speaker 1
So the more of a deficit you're at, the more it works. So if you're out late the night before, that'd be a great time to take 5, maybe even 10 MLs and you'll wake up more fresh. Or you can take it in the morning when you have had a low amount of sleep and you're dragging. So that'll help you bring you back to baseline.

You could do it post workout, doesn't matter the type of workout, doesn't matter if it's running or weights, post workout because some people, if they have a hard workout and they're trying to go to use their brain for work, the brain sometimes doesn't really catch up because you're just drained from that workout. The escher can kind of bring you back. And while you might say, well, I'm already doing fasting or I'm already making a little bit of ketones, okay, but your brain's that 0.5 that you're making through that fasting probably isn't enough to make, first of all, you burned it up in the workout. So that's all gone. So you could take it post workout before you're about to do actual work.

You could also take it selectively for podcasts and stuff like this so that your brain is on a higher level. Just if you're really going to be intensely thinking for an hour or two, that's a great time to selectively take it and try different amounts.

Take one capful, two capfuls, half of a bottle. Rhonda Patrick used to down an entire bottle and I was like, no, that's way too much. And she would have this spike of energy and then crash hard afterward. I'm like, no, you're taking way, way too much. And people look at their blood numbers real quick and they see that the peak is at 40, 45 minutes and then it crashes and they think, oh, the ketones are out of my blood. They stop working. I need to redose or ketones don't last very long. But what they're missing is ketones don't do anything in the blood. They don't make it redder. They don't make it thinner. They don't make it do anything. It's when the ketones leave the blood that they start to work.

And they've even done a brain scan where they're able to see, even though the ketones went down after 40 minutes or peaked at 40 minutes and started coming straight down, it stayed in the brain for two, two and a half hours high, like not even like starting to come down at the two and a half hour mark. So today you can use it selectively for important meetings and stuff like that. But on a day-to-day basis, you might not be a candidate for taking, well, there'd be a longevity protocol, potential reason to take it. I don't really like that as much because people want to feel something. They want it to be noticeable and obvious. But the science will say, if you were to add an extra cap full or two twice a day, that it could help for just general longevity.

But I don't really like selling something that is hypothetical, hey, take these pills for six months and let's see what happens and see if you feel better. But technically, there would be an argument for that. I just tend to not promote that. I'm lucky that we have a product that when it works, it works. It's not like, oh, well, I want to take these, you know, sugar packets for a few weeks and see if it works.

Speaker 1
No, you're going to take a sugar packet and you're in your run, and you'll know whether it worked or not. Like, you might have to tweak the amount, but it's instant. We've had some people with brain fog, they said, well, I tried it for a couple of weeks, and it didn't work. I'm going to give it another four weeks, and that's it.

It's like, no, no, no. We need to change the protocol and give it a day or two. Like, that's it. So, in that day or two, it's a function of changing the protocol. Let's find out what you did wrong, or if you did something wrong, and then oftentimes it's, oh, well, I ate. You said to take it on an empty stomach, I took it, and then I ate half an hour later. Oh, the blood peaks at 40 minutes, and right when it's about to start to work, you ate a bowl of grapefruit. That's why. Trying it for another six weeks isn't going to do anything. So we try to tweak the protocol, or we go up in the amount, and they say, oh, well, that's not sustainable. So it's a lot less expensive for you to do a one or two-day test at a higher protocol than a low protocol for six weeks and have it do nothing. Let's work backwards. Let's go in the other direction. Let's try a high amount. And then if you're like, oh, wow, that really worked, then you recognize what that mental clarity is like. You can cut it back and see if you still get the same mental clarity, and if you don't, then you decide, is it worth $5 a day?

Is it worth $10 a day? We have some people that are former NFL, now a sales rep, and he takes an entire bottle. It takes $30 worth a day, and he's like, hey, if it helps my sales make me another $200 in commissions, I'm 8Xing my money because I'm on. So different people, different amounts, but more is not always better. So we try to teach people how to be cost effective and find ways to take less. But for some people, they have to take more. So you could try it a bunch of different ways.

Melanie Avalon
You touched on something that we talk about a lot on the intermittent fasting podcast, which is the people obsessively measuring their blood ketone levels and even experiencing that when they first start, be it keto or fasting or whatever it may be, that they're high and then they're chasing these high levels and then they start experiencing lower levels, but it might just be because their body is actually now using it. So I like your comment.

So many people don't know.

Speaker 1
that and the doctors don't know that. I get calls from people that say, my doctor says I need to be at one or two millimolars and I'm freaking out. I've been doing this diet for a year and they're going down. So now I need to pump up with exogenous ketones to fill out the number and hit those numbers. And I'm like, no.

First of all, the stress that you have is not helping you any. But what the doctor is missing is that over time, you increase your MCT transporters. It's the transporter, that HOV lane that gets the ketones out of your blood to where they need to go. That gets bigger and it shuttles them faster. So you think that you're making less ketones. The ketones in the blood is just a very high level snapshot of what's going on. It does not tell the full story and it changes over time. So you're exactly right that you might be eating the exact same way. And some people hyper obsess about percentage fat with these calculators and apps and stuff. That's fine. And they think that their numbers are going down and they think that they're making less ketones, but that's not necessarily true at all.

It could just be your body's using them up. We even had one person that had mental clarity issues, but they also wanted to test the blood. And it wasn't, this was weird. It wasn't showing up in their blood, even at the doses that it should have. I said, okay, but are you feeling anything on the mental clarity? And he's like, oh yeah, totally. I'm like, well, if you felt nothing and you saw nothing on the meter, okay, here's your money back. I don't know. Maybe you have some missing enzyme that's not cleaning the product. Who knows? But you're not seeing it on the meter, but you're feeling it cognitively.

I don't know. Maybe you are one of these hyper people that the brain is in such demand for the ketones that just sucking them all up and just using them all up. Like I'm, I care more about the feeling and I believe in placebo, you know, Joe dispense that you are the placebo. I believe in all that. But if you feel better, like that's, that's the focus. So yeah, chasing the blood ketones. I haven't tested my ketones, you know, in a long time. Sometimes if a kid stubs his toe, one of my kids stubs his toe and, and I have a ketone meter somewhere, I have been known to like throw in, I'm not going to prick them, but he's already got blood there. Let's see what it's.

Melanie Avalon
wait that's so funny because literally whenever I if I like you know cut my finger or something I'm like oh let me let me test

Speaker 1
I might test once every three or four months to kind of see where I am. So first thing in the morning before any food, supplement, water, anything. But for the most part, I haven't really tested.

I do suggest that people, if they decide to go intermittent fasting and stack keto on top of that, because it's an important thing. My uncle is a doctor and he won't even listen about ketones and he was overweight and he only did intermittent fasting. But his one meal a day was what made him lose a lot of weight. But he ate bread, he ate everything. So it's not keto. You can either do keto by itself, two, three meals a day, or you can stack keto and intermittent fasting and potentially have better results. But if you are deciding to go down this fully keto route, you really do need to have a blood meter, more so than even tracking your macros. Because there are people that will stay in this 0.2, 0.3, 0.5, not really get into ketosis because they're doing it wrong. And then they have multi-weeks of just no success and brain fog and keto flu. And then they say, oh, well, I took some online tests and it said that ketones aren't for my body type. It's crap. It's like, no, you took it wrong. And the number one way people take it wrong is actually too much protein. They understand the low carb, near zero carb concept, 5% carbs, but they can't fathom the concept of 80% fat. It just blows their mind. So what do they do? They have a bunch of protein, but then that makes it much harder, if impossible, to get into ketosis because excess over 15% to 25% protein, depending on how you work out, is like a cup being overflowing and it turns into glucose, gluconeogenesis. So excess protein will kick you out of ketosis. So you really should have a meter if your choice is to go down the ketogenic diet route, just to see whether you're waking up at 0.5, 1.0, 1.5 and try different things. You can see, oh, I had a dinner at 5 o'clock one night, same meal, and then a dinner another night at 9 or 10 o'clock. What does that translate to? One day your ketones were 0.5 in the morning, the next day 1.5, huh, that extra four hour window makes a difference. Or you might say the different types of food that you ate the night before, and then you see, hey, let's see how that affects my endogenous regular ketosis in the morning. So I do see people that think that they're going keto, don't have a blood meter, and it's not working. And then they'll say things like, oh, well, I eat some fruit, I eat some berries and strawberries. Well, if you're not getting into ketosis, you want to cut those things out because they'd say they say oh well these podcasts say that they're or you know these websites might say that they're keto friendly well Yeah, they're keto friendly for people that are already in ketosis and already at that baseline of 1 1.2 They're fine.

Speaker 1
They can have some super low sugar fruit But if you're struggling you can't even get in you got a that's the first thing you got to cut You can bring them back in later if you want, but I'd say if you really want fruit Lemon and stevia drops make yourself a lemonade so you feel like you're in the fruit family but yeah, so the keto meter is good for that some people sometimes buy the keto meter to Prove that the ketone ester makes their numbers move You can do that just to make yourself feel better that you're not being scammed so you have to take it take a blood test right before and then blood test at the 30 to 35 40 minute mark and See them move and then you feel not scammed, but I already know that two capfuls is gonna be one millimolar so You can do it if it makes you feel better But it's not really necessary to test your blood ketones with the exogenous ketones I don't think but people sometimes want to test it and then they they get mad like oh Well, you know didn't show anything on the meter or made my ketones go down.

It's like Okay, exactly. What did you do? It's like well I took one capful and then I tested two hours later. It's like well, it doesn't work that way one capfuls too low It's not gonna move the meter and the peak is at 40 30 to 40 minutes depending on how much you take So testing it two hours later. It's just non sequitur So I you know would then tell them take a larger amount take four capfuls but you have to take it at the 35 40 minute mark and you will Definitely, you know see your numbers move and then they feel you know Not ripped off and then you know, they don't have to test it anymore

Melanie Avalon
Do you have thoughts about the breath meter? I know when I interviewed Dom D'Agostino about it, he was saying that he feels like the acetone from that state is more indicative of actually burning body fat.

Sure.

Speaker 1
but it won't work for exogenous ketones. So exogenous ketones are beta hydroxybutyrate and the breath meter test for acetone. So I have broken the record on an acetone meter at one of these biohacking conferences. They're like, oh, you want to take this? And I'm like, sure. And I blew it. And like, what? Like you're in the danger call 911. Ketoacidosis. Yeah, you should go to the hospital.

Then he's like, no, I took ketone acetone. I was like, oh, okay. So, but it might show up like two to three hours later. It's not a 40 minute thing. But yeah, the acetone, the breath meters for endogenous production are fine. I don't know much about it. I've had them a couple of times, but I haven't really recommended it or taken a deep dive because the blood is just like, boom, this is the exact number. But if you're really against the blood prick, yeah, the breath meter would be fine, but don't take the breath meter with the exogenous ketones to try to see what that's doing. And the urine strips don't work at all. Like don't even bother that. That's showing you what your body's not using, what's in your blood is what you're using, but the urine strips show you what you're not using and you're excreting out. So I don't recommend using those at all. It's a really,

Melanie Avalon
similar correlate to people, because I do think people with the urine strips, if they've never tried a keto diet or anything like that, it can possibly be helpful just to see right at the beginning when they start making these ketones but not using them. But then it would quickly drop off as they're getting adapted and actually using them.

And so it's kind of similar to the blood where people might see higher levels right at the beginning and then it transitions to lower as they actually begin using the...

Speaker 1
ketones? Yeah, the blood shouldn't transition too much, maybe 20% or 30% lower. It's not like you're going to be at 1.5% and then dropping to 0.7%. I don't think now someone could, I could be wrong about that, but I definitely agree with the concept of over months and years, your numbers go down because your transporters go up.

And this has something to do with the concept of flow. Flow is how ketones are getting out of your system. You actually want a higher flow. So there's certain ingredients that I could put into the ketone ester that would actually make it so that the blood meter shows higher. So it's like, wow, look, the ketones are higher. This is a good thing. Well, no, I just put in an ingredient that blocks the MCT transporter. So it pulls there and makes it look like it's better, but it's actually worse. And then the opposite, you could take niacin and it could actually help open up the MCT transporters, help get ketones out of your system and it would make your blood ketones look lower. So like marketability, you want them to look higher, look at this product, you know, here's a test. I could do a whole bunch of things to make them appear higher by blocking the door. But that has to do with flow, which is why, you know, different exogenous ketones, there's this concept, which we haven't really even talked about, that some people think, well, doesn't matter the exogenous ketone, as long as you have one millimolar versus one millimolar, it's the same. And if another ketone is weaker, you take four times more of it, and as long as you have one millimolar in your system, it's the same. And that's what I, my next goal, trying to prove that scientifically, it's not the same. The ketones in your blood, it's just a snapshot. There's other things that are going on. And if you have some exogenous ketones that might take you two steps backward, the numbers look like it's one millimolar, but then all this trash and excess stuff to get there isn't being accounted for. And that's slowing down your system or making you more a sedative-like effect, like the hard ketones. The hard ketones will raise your blood ketones, but it makes you demotivated, it makes you want to sit on the couch, makes you want to relax, it doesn't make you want to jump up and go for a run. And when we first launched the hard ketones, I knew that it was going to be a hard concept to explain that this is not a workout energy drink. And we even tried to call it on the side of the can, relax, like screaming, like not take before gym. And we gave it to some people to try out and one person reported. So I took it before my treadmill run. And I don't know, Frank, you know, I was looking at this couch in the treadmill that I hadn't ever even noticed was there and I was like, you know what, it'd really be nice to be sitting on that and not running. And I'm like, no, did you not see the big word relax on the side? So different ketones will do different results, even though they both might just raise your blood ketone numbers, it doesn't mean that it's interacting with the system the same way.

Melanie Avalon
a really quick question and I don't know what you said that made me think about this. I've had Dr. Stephen Gundry on the show a few times and I'm trying to remember which book it was.

One of his books, his thesis is basically that the benefits from ketones aren't because they are like a good source of fuel for the cells. It's actually because they signal the mitochondria to waste energy and build new mitochondria, but they're not actually fuel. Well, there's a

Speaker 1
paper called, are ketones a fuel or signaling molecule? And the answer to the paper is both.

And there's a Dr. Veach paper where he talks about fasting and all these animal studies, five animal studies where all the animals lived longer for different types of fasting. And each one of them had a theory as to why they lived longer. And he was like, they all missed the point. They all raised ketones. And it was the ketones that made them live longer.

So yes, I agree that it could be both a signaling molecule and help building mitochondria, which is why we have marathon runners take higher doses of the ester a week before the race. We had one marathon runner who took it three or four days, liked it. And then on game day, he did it fasted. On game day, he added an apple and a power bar and then took the ketonester. And he's like, Frank, I just didn't like it. The race was horrible.

It was just perceived effort was very bad. And he's a two hour and 20 minute marathoner. So not super pro elite, but you'll win local races. And he's like, I just felt bad. I said, well, why'd you have that power bar and apple? And he said, Oh, well, I can't run a marathon without it. Like, well, first of all, the Kenyans do so. And second of all, all of your workouts were fasted and with the ketones and brought you back to baseline. So I think what happened is that power bar and apple shut off his endogenous production. He added the ketonester and just it would have been better to stack it on top of endogenous production. It just didn't work. So the next couple of weeks, he runs every two weeks, these races, I said, just take it in your workouts, fasted, and then game day, go back to whatever banana, whatever stuff you want. And sure enough, he's like, Frank, it felt amazing.

How is it possible that the ketones were they still in my system? Because I had an 18 month PR, I felt light on my feet, and I didn't even take any ketones that day. And I said, what I think happened was you built up the mitochondria. You were more because you run every two weeks, you were more recovered. And that's, you're depleting your mitochondria during those races. And he didn't even need to take any on race day.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting because hearing that theory and that concept which makes sense it will be both i think he. Because i think he likes to be a little bit sensational so i think he went the route of like it's all signaling it's not what you thought but it sounds like it probably is both like a fuel and a signaling molecule to build more medication.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I do think it helps build mitochondria. That's why it works better the older you are.

So I have some Tour de France riders talking to the coaches and I say, hey, it's not like you shouldn't give it to the younger riders, but find me those older riders. They're the ones that cannot replenish their mitochondria as fast. They're the ones that notice a bigger difference. So these older athletes that are trying to add on an extra one or two years to their final years of cycling or football or anything, they're the ones where it really can help them the most because it's just harder. You just harder to recover the next day after a standard workout and you just can't build.

Melanie Avalon
mitochondria as well. Yeah and hearing all of this so I think the way I think the way I will benefit the most from testing it would be like you suggested before podcasts and things like that.

I'm thinking about how I wish I had had this yesterday because I had my first press conference I've never had one of those and it was early and I'm not a morning person and this would have been that would have been helpful probably. Yeah for you um

Speaker 1
unless you're sensitive to medicine in general for something important like that, 15, 20 MLs, but you, which is on the higher side, but you would definitely have wanted to take it on another day that's just not important just to make sure that doesn't make your blood sugar drop too much or some unknown thing. And also don't mix it with MCT oil, C8 in particular, we put on the side of the box, friends don't let friends drink this with MCT oil.

We don't know why part of it is maybe they're both going through the same transporters and you get this big fat, literally fat blocking the door and people already feel GI problems with C8 and they know, hey, after a few week adaptation period, I can take one tablespoon. When you add the ketone escher, it feels as if they then went to two tablespoons. And sometimes I'll give it to someone at a conference and they're like, you know, my stomach isn't, it was given the ester and I told them about the C8, like my stomach, you know, the ester just isn't sitting well with me. And I look at their cup of coffee and said, what's in there? And they go, oh yeah, you told me no C8. And so it just doesn't mix well. I know it, there's some scientific papers where they take ester and C8, give it to mice and they find some benefits. Okay, those are mice. Just don't blame me when you try it as a human and it doesn't work or makes you feel worse. We're suggesting not to take it.

And then people say, well, how many hours to take it, you know, apart? Well, first of all, I'm not a fan of C8. I think C8 is a small molecule that makes it into the brain itself. And the brain can't use it as a fuel. It can use ketones, but it can't use C8 and it shouldn't be in the brain. So I'm not a fan of C8. I like the liquid coconut oils that are just the higher numbers, the C10s, the C12s, if you're going keto. But the ketone ester is going to be five to 10 times stronger on a per serving basis versus the C8. So like, why have something that only 10 to 15% of it might turn into BHB and the whole bunch of other stuff that isn't as calories and isn't efficient? Just why bother? Just replace it. So, but if you must have them together, then maybe you can have the C8 in your coffee in the morning and then maybe take the ester only in the afternoon, or you drop the C8 all together and just take smaller amounts of ester. Wow.

Melanie Avalon
I would not have expected you to say that about the C8. It's funny I'm having again flashbacks because the amount of I went through I go through like obsessive phases where I get obsessed with I don't know researching whatever concept and I went through like the C8 C10 phase and was like on all the Reddit boards and all the things and I came and I like landed on C8.

So that's interesting to hear that you don't think it's ideal. I'm glad.

Speaker 1
I mean, I make something that someone would argue is competitive. So maybe that's coming out, but just Dr. Veach never liked it. He said, and I have a video on him talking about how he doesn't like C8 because it creates it gets into the brain, it creates oxidative stress, and it might raise ketones, but it's only 10-15%. So you have to deal with this 80-85% load of stuff. And there's been clinical trials that have spent like 10-20 million dollars on clinical trials on C8 for brain cognition, and it just didn't work.

Now, they say, oh, well, when we went from stage two to stage three, we accidentally changed the formula where you're not supposed to change the formula. That's the whole point of a clinical trial is you don't change the formula. One person said that there might've been a typo where they put milligrams instead of grams. Like literally they said, well, maybe that was why, because it says here milligrams is supposed to be grams. So I don't know. But there have been just anecdotal reports where people say that they noticed the C8 for a brain fog for a couple of weeks, but then it stops. And I just wonder if that's some sort of accumulation in the brain of stuff that shouldn't be there. If it works for you, great, I guess, I don't know, it's just, it seems cheaper. But if it's far less effective, I'm not sure if something is cheaper if it doesn't work for you. If it works for you and that's your cup of tea, just keep in mind, people put it in coffee and then even the C8 will multiply the caffeine effect. So you think that it's a C8 that's giving you the energy, but it's just doubling your cup of coffee, I think. And I've had one person who was drinking some tea at 4pm and he said, oh, well, you know, I'm like, it's kind of late. He's like, oh, caffeine doesn't affect me. And then he took a small dose of ketone ester and two minutes later, he's like, oh my God. And I said, no, no, no, that's, I'd love to take credit for it. This guy wanted to, you know, VC, you know, why not impress him and be like, yep, that's the ketones. Like, no, that's not what you're feeling is the caffeine that normally doesn't get to your system just got hand delivered on a silver platter with the with the ketone ester. That's the ketone being multiple. That's the caffeine being multiplied. That's not really, you know, the ketone effect. Wow.

Melanie Avalon
Are there studies on ketone esters and dementia and Alzheimer's?

Speaker 1
prevention? They have not done one yet and it's a it's a tragedy.

There have been stuff on health because there's this you know is it a food is it when you have a disease you can't you can only treat a disease with medicine so it's very hard to get approval for some of these things. They did there have been studies that show cognitive improvement in sport so they had this soccer sprinting trial where they did like these 50 meter sprints like 20 times with and without they did sugar only and then sugar and ketones I wanted them to do ketones only and I told them it's not going to make them sprint faster so not sure why you're doing that but hey while you're at it can you test their brain and they said oh okay sure two years later soccer shuttle sprinters brain cognition was the same at the end of their you know nearly throwing up sprint workout as it was at the beginning of their workout versus the glucose only group that had either two or three x more wrong answers so think in terms of a football player fourth quarterback being as sharp as they are in the first quarterback in the first quarter um so there's been cognition in the sport context but there's also recently I think last week was a paper for cognition for healthy young adults over time so this wasn't even a 24 hour or one hour acute test it was an over time thing that they did show cognitive cognitive improvement um I'm trying to think whether they yeah they did something with people that were older subjects but not in a category of mild cognitive impairment and they showed that glucose destabilized the brain network where ketones did the opposite and they did both the ketogenic diet and they did a regular diet and ketone ester and they found the same thing so that is an example of they were able to match the ester did do the same thing as the ketogenic diet in that one context I like to say imagine if they had an arm that was not necessarily fully keto maybe but at least low carb and the ketone ester I wonder whether they would have been able to take it up another notch because I do think that the the glucose part of the equation not so much the ketogenic diet where you're making ketones but just going low carb and adding ketone ester and that's kind of an important concept because I think with the ketogenic diet we don't know how much of it is working because glucose is down and glucose is the culprit or how much of it is working because the ketones are going up so when you're doing uh so some protocols for people people that for some reason can't go full keto say okay great just go lower carb, get that blood glucose meter. You're spending a lot of stuff on my ketone escher, get a blood glucose meter, buy less of my stuff, and you should be limiting your blood sugar spikes. So go low glycemic, go a diabetic diet, limit those spikes, because every one of those spikes I like to say is like a nuclear bomb going to the brain. Limit your blood sugar spikes, and then you can add ketone eschers in that context. So you're not necessarily fully keto, but you've dropped off the, you've lowered the sugar, and then you've raised the ketones.

Speaker 1
This one lady who had brain fog, I asked her, she was asking for protocols. I said, well, what do you eat in the morning? She said, a bowl of fruit. I said, perfect. She's like, why is that perfect? Because that's the absolute worst thing that you can eat.

So it only goes up from here. So stop the fruit, try this. I mean, for her, I'm not saying fruit is bad for everyone, but if you have a glucose impairment problem and brain fog, that might not be the best thing for you to drink and eat in the morning. So she cut that out and it worked the first day. And she said, well, when can I have grapefruit again? It's like, well, whenever you want, whenever you're ready to have brain fog again, it'll just come back that exact day, because your body doesn't, your brain doesn't work well first thing in the morning with a big bolus of sugar for that person.

Melanie Avalon
It's really upsetting that there's not more and i understand why what you're saying about the confusion about studying it you know as a.

Speaker 1
medical protocol. Also money. I mean, the drug companies, they put in $10, $20 million to have their drug be proven to do something and there isn't that $10, $20 million available. We have doctors and places lined up that want to do it, but there's just no funding.

You would think that there's all this study and NIH funding and stuff and it's just hard to get there. Because you think that there's these associations that are raising funds and doing marathons to raise money for this and that, you would think that this would get on their shortlist of things that they should try. It doesn't because every scientist has their 10, 20-year mission of whatever molecule, powder, medicine, and it's really hard to convince them to switch over to, well, try this thing over here. Like, no, I'm dead set on whatever, acetate pills, whatever. So it's just hard to get the funding and get in line and have anyone take it seriously.

Melanie Avalon
I was just about to say I don't, I rarely get like actually angry and I interviewed Charles Pillar on the show. He's the investigative journalist from science who literally cracked the story about all the fraud in Alzheimer's research and his book doctored.

I have, I get like so upset just thinking about it and like just all of the, what you're just talking about with the pharmaceutical companies, like all, all of just the complete outright lies.

Speaker 1
I gotta I gotta I gotta hear that cuz it will make me irate because I know what you're talking about just mm-hmm and he's like

Melanie Avalon
the guy who like, did

Speaker 1
Isn't there like hundreds? It's not dozens, hundreds a year of trials that are for... And they all prove nothing.

Maybe two years ago, maybe there was something that might have moved the needle a tiny bit. And meanwhile, you have something like this. You talk about aniloid plaques and that's what they should be focusing on. It's like, well, or maybe the lights are just turned off and here's a switch to give it energy that it needs. There's a circuitry problem of glucose not getting into the system. Like they call it type 3 diabetes when the brain can't get enough fuel. Well, if you can give it the fuel, maybe it doesn't really matter as much the aniloid plaques. Maybe just the lights are turned off. And yes, it would be a fairly low budget clinical trial. And if anyone's listening to the podcast, maybe this is destiny to give us a call and help us make that happen because it is a shame because that was Dr. Veach's initial goal. His goal was not sports. It just happened to be that the first bottles that they would make of the ketone escher and they used to put them in Orangina one liter bottles, which is ironic because it's the exact opposite. One of the staff would drink orange juice every day. So that was the bottle that the ketone escher was shipped in, Orangina bottles. Not Orangina. One of the orange one liter Tropicana bottles is what it was shipped in. And they decided to go down the sport route first because it was just easier and more quantitative and just more immediate. But that was not his end goal. He didn't care at all about athletes. That was not his goal at all. Yeah, it's

Melanie Avalon
It's really, really upsetting.

Speaker 1
Maybe Charles has some connections in that world to make it right. I'd love to talk to him

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I was curious because so I highly, highly recommend his book Doctor and it's not just the pharmaceutical companies like a lot of it. I mean, he talks about basically how the researchers and there's a lot of doctoring of data like just completely false images to support the amyloid hypothesis and then everything got based on that and then it's just it's a mess.

It's shock.

Speaker 1
Well, you've opened up a can of worms and you said you had time. So I'm going to give you something that's super funny. So first of all, there's a competitor that did a funded trial. We haven't funded any of our trials. So it's all clinicians buying product from us. So it's 100% third party. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works. And I don't even agree with the protocol.

So it's like, but there's a company that paid for a different molecule to be tested. And the conclusion was that it helps sprinters. And I was like, what? Ketones don't help sprinting, but it makes for a great headline, makes for a great bold point in an ad. When you actually read the paper, first of all, they gave the subjects food before the sprinting workout. Go to the last 100 clinical trials on sprinting, see if anyone has ever given a food. So why did they give a food? They gave a food because they were giving R1,3-butanediol. What happens when you take R1,3-butanediol without having food? You are buzzed. Not the right mindset for sprinting. So what their solution to that was giving them a bunch of food. Oh, but they're sprinting. Hmm. Well, guess what happened? The sprinters threw up less when they had the ketones. So the title of the paper should be, ketones help you throw up less. Therefore, you don't drop out of race as much, and then you're a faster sprinter. It doesn't help sprinting. At least I haven't seen any evidence that it helps sprinting.

I think it can be used pre and post. You can do sprint protocols that it can help sprinting, but not immediately beforehand. But yeah, when you actually read it, they were less sick. And maybe it's more likely that the fact that they were less sick is what made their times look better. But that's not what the headline is. It's just, it's flabbergasting how they can manipulate the data. And they try to say, oh, it's slow release. And somehow, no, you don't want slow release. You want it to be in your cyst, in your blood and out of your blood faster. But they made it look slow release by adding the meal. The meal slows down the release. Also, high doses, can slow down the ketones in your blood because you're at capacity of the liver to convert to ketones. That's not a good thing to over max out your liver. So yeah, those papers. And sometimes they're in journals that are super low reputation. They're so low that they don't even show up on Med. People don't know that there's actual PubMed has a certain level of paper quality before it lets it in. And they do let in stuff that I would still consider bad, but some papers are just so bad. And these companies try to get them published in different places and no one will accept them except for some no-name thing. But the consumer will read these papers and not know that it's credible or not. But when you go to a scientist, they're like, oh, it's in XYZ? Yeah, I don't even want to debate. I don't even want to even look at that.

Speaker 1
It didn't make it into a reputable journal for a reason. And then they use that for marketing.

One company said, increases your ketones 5X. That's just non-sequitur. People who eat at McDonald's have zero ketones. So it was like 5 times 0. Or maybe they might have shown up 0.1 because sometimes you might just have a tiny amount. So then it says, 5 to 10X your ketones. That makes no sense. But it makes for a great.

Melanie Avalon
Great. Bullet point. And on the paper front, after you read Doctord, you'll be suspicious of the mainstream journals too. It's like, uh... Well, I think that's it.

Speaker 1
I've gotten one paper retracted, they didn't know the ketone ester molecule by name. They were referring to ketone ester as one molecule, a diester of acetoacetate bound to racemic 1,3-butanediol. That's what they were using, but then they were using this ketone ester. They made the correction, but then the correction was also wrong.

They called it R-R, A-C-A-C, B-D-O, ester or something. There is no R on the acetoacetate, it just doesn't exist, so scientifically, there's no chirality. R has to do with the chiralness of a molecule. You might see D-ribose or L-tryptophans, and then there's letters before supplements. So it has to do with that. So they corrected it and said, oh, because the R-R, their correction was wrong. And it was 20 authors on this paper, and they still didn't even know, none of the 20 knew what molecule they were even using, and I didn't even fight to get that correction corrected. And I'm fighting another two papers right now for lack of disclosure. The person has affiliations with ketone salt companies, and they weren't disclosing it. And another one where they refer to ketone esters throughout the paper, and they gave an example of the molecule, the scientific name, but it was not that molecule that they used in the paper, and it just makes me pull my hair out. It's like, this is the wrong molecule. Why are you guys even debating correcting this? This is no brainer territory, and it's still a multi-month fight.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, that would be satisfying to see the changes made, although very really annoying if they correct it wrong again the second time.

Speaker 1
Like really it's the same. It's the same journal.

I think the journal still shows up in PubMed But was a lower-end journal and I'm fighting them on this new paper. So like confusing the concept of This correction is wrong and this new paper I just had to like separate the two and be like, okay forget about the correction of the correction like let's focus on this thing that is just asinine ridiculously wrong and let's let's focus on this and And then they have the the author of the paper right back saying oh no with you know, this is fine We didn't do anything wrong.

All the reviewers Had no issues with it, but these low-end journals they'll hire like these chinese Medical students to be quote-unquote reviewers. They don't know any better They read the paper and they thought that it was the molecule that you listed in the paper Why would they think that you have to go to a footnote?

To find a paper that you did four years ago of which molecule it really was and it matters Which molecule it is because ketones are not just ketones There's different types and some might be better for some things and some might be better for other things, but everyone needs to know Which ones and i've gotten? Mad at some researchers because they'll put in the subject they'll put in the title Exogenous ketosis does x y z or exogenous ketones do x y z And then sometimes the paper is ketone salt and sometimes the paper is ketone ester And I said no the title should be ketone ester does or does not do x y z ketone salt Does it does not because you're not going to have a paper that says?

Exogenous carbohydrates do x y z and then the paper is about fructose And then another paper is about a slow burning carbohydrate. No, you're going to say fructose does Well for sprinting you're going to say this slow carbohydrate isomaltolose is good for x y z So i'm like fighting these researchers be like, please It's not all the same because these other companies that sell other types of quote unquote exogenous ketones They do what I call science hijacking They point to the ketone ester papers and they say look the title says exogenous Ketosis or exogenous ketones do x y z ours is exogenous ketosis.

So therefore You should expect the same results like no That's what I call. Yeah, uh hijacking science and sometimes they'll even be papers that say exogenous ketones sometimes work and then the list for four Papers and sometimes don't work the list four papers When you actually dig into it the first four were ketone ester and the second four were different ketone Exogenous ketones.

So like you should have written that sentence to say You know in these instances it worked with this molecule in these instances. It did not work with this molecule It would have been much more accurate.

Speaker 1
But things kind of get lumped in. And then someone hears on a podcast, ketones or exoticist ketones, they go on Amazon and they buy some cheap looking pills that are made in China. They say made in the USA, which is literally, if it has any ketones in it whatsoever, which oftentimes it doesn't, they'll bring it into the US, put it in bottles in the US, and they're allowed to say made in the US. And it's just complete garbage.

We recently last week tested a product that claimed to have a certain ingredient in it. It had zero. Initially, I thought it had 1%. And then he's like, no, no, we got to the undetectable. So it's under 1%, not 1%. It had none in it, just zero.

And it has some reviews. So either those reviews are flat out fake, or they were placebo effect, or they put something in it. Maybe they put snuck in caffeine or something. So he felt something. So yeah, it's confusing. I don't envy the customer trying to weed through things.

And sometimes when someone finally makes it to my company after going to three or four, I'm like, how did you get here? Because there's so much crap out there. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time and learning about it. But how did you navigate that? Because we're only getting the 1% of people that hear about ketones getting to the one that works, the one that 90% of the clinical trials use for a reason.

Melanie Avalon
I was wondering about that well actually before that just because you touched on it and I had asked listeners for questions And I had had one from Rita and she said I read somewhere that they may in fact not be good for the liver What is the latest research and you mentioned something about the liver?

Speaker 1
to do that. I actually at the beginning, I'm like, I wonder if that's, if she's going to bring that up because, okay, the liver, I don't know if I want to call out the actual scientist or not.

That's, that's the paper that I'm fighting.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. Oh, wow. That was a timely question from Rita.

Speaker 1
And they are owned by a company that sells racemic salts, okay? So they're trying, it's in their best interest to say that salts are better than ketone ester for the liver. And that statement is technically true, but misleading. Ketone salts don't use the liver. So if something doesn't use or doesn't tax the liver, it's going to be quote unquote better for the liver.

Fructose uses, fructose uses the liver, goes to the liver to be processed. Are you going to say that, you know, don't eat fructose versus glucose because it taxes the liver? Well, the word tax, no, it utilizes the liver, but in a healthy manner. There was actually no, and even in that paper, if you actually read it, it didn't harm the liver. It just showed that it was being utilized, but then they make it look like it was better. And then this paper, a related paper to that, they didn't even use BHB salts. They used BHB free acid, which doesn't work for its own reasons, but the BHB free acid, because salt can go through the liver and tax the liver. So they wanted to make the numbers look even better. So they use BHB free acid, which is extracting all the salts. So the pH is super low and it doesn't work in the gut, doesn't work. But for a paper to make it question whether the liver is being worse off, they found that one organ that the ketone, the ketones can't help. So they didn't use kidneys because they can potentially help kidneys. Liver is the only organ where ketones can actually be, is not a net benefit. They put BHB free acid through it because you don't want to put salt in it because that's going to tax the liver or use the liver. But then the ketone salt companies are going to cite this paper and say, look, BHB is better than 1,3-butanediol. And it's just non-sequitur because A, they didn't use the BHB salts. They used BHB free acid. And then on the other side, they didn't use ketone ester, okay? They didn't use ketone ester. And if they would have, they would have seen that it would have been much less than what they used. They used racemic 1,3-butanediol. So they didn't even use R, the R form, the bioavailable form. They used the un-bioavailable, the DL form, the least expensive crappy racemic 1,3-butanediol. Why? Because it would exponentially look worse in the taxing of the liver. So two levels of separation from R molecule and that molecule. One, it was racemic. And two, it wasn't even the ketone ester. It was racemic 1,3-butanediol. And they did that on purpose to make their BHB free acid look, make their BHB salts, which they didn't use, look better. So it's like this conflating multiple layers of just garbage. garbage on top of garbage and then the amount that they gave to the mice they said a low dose and a high dose. If you give a human equivalent dose of that it was like 150 to 300 grams of the racemic 1,3-butanediol. So their low dose was still 40 times what we recommend people take of the ketone escher. So they give this super huge mega dose and even that didn't harm the liver it just used the liver and it's just like this is just so misleading and in that mega dose they didn't give mega doses of the BHB salt.

Speaker 1
Why? Because if you gave 300 grams worth of the mice equivalent of BHB salt the mice might be dead. So then the paper would be you know mice don't die with with the mice are more likely to die with BHB salt that doesn't make for a good paper. So it's ridiculous.

So the quantity that they gave was huge and they didn't even match it to this other product that they say is better and then they isolate the results and say look you know it moves some numbers on your liver. Yeah it's crap and it's going around and it's just confusing people and it's all commercial BS and I'm planning on doing a deep dive blog post on it. I don't know if you've seen any of my blog posts but I did a deep dive blog post of one of my competitors that just went bull point by bull point down each one of the BS's that they claim and it's it's actually kind of funny and we got into a little bit of a legal tissy with the lawyers and the lawyers made me correct number seven. So I said hey number one through ten have been approved by their legal team because they couldn't find anything wrong with it except for number seven you know one tiny mention which I corrected and that means that the legal agreed that one through ten were just BS marketing like making claims that your your product was used in a six million dollar military grant when it wasn't it was the ketone escher the company got the money but it was for a different molecule but they imply that it's for their new molecule to get people you know to buy it and credibility and it's just it's just a bunch of crap.

Melanie Avalon
That's so funny and kind of karma that they you know come after you and then tell you to correct one and then you can use that to say.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I went to law school and I passed the bar but never became a lawyer, but it helps for things like that because to be able to be like, hey, you're essentially approving all of these things. There's nothing wrong with every one of these statements is correct. You claim that the Goldilocks zone is between, I don't know if it was 1.5 or 2 to 3. That's like the prime BHB level that you want to get to, which I don't agree with. And their drink only hits 0.8. It's like, what? What? You said that your Goldilocks is 1.5 to 2.5. And if you drink four of yours, you'll get into that zone. They show a chart where they drink 3.5 to 4 of their bottles and they show this chart where the ketones are really high. But when you buy one of their bottles, it doesn't even reach their Goldilocks zone. It's just like, you have to read the fine print of these things and it's misleading.

There's one guy who was actually writing a book on ketones and he thought that he caught every one of their tricks. And I told him the one about the government and he's like, damn, I missed that one. He's like, yeah, you got to read it very carefully. The word says through, meaning during the research, we discovered this new molecule, but we as the company, not the government funding. The government funding was for ketonesher and he was like dead set on understanding the BS and he still missed that one. So yeah, there's a lot of BS, a lot of, and if you want to get into it now, there's a concept called LBHB. So we didn't talk much about chirality, but different molecules have, you might hear of D-ribose or L-tryptophan, there's a letter beforehand. Well, it's for the bioavailability of a molecule, sometimes it has something called chirality. Sometimes it has like a left-handed version or right-handed version where the glove fits. The body can use one of the forms, whether it's the D form, which is also known as the R form, which is confusing, or sometimes like L-tryptophan, it's the L form, also known as S. Think of the D versus R, those are the same. One is like, let's think of it as like US standard versus like a UK, like inches versus centimeters. They're the same thing. It's just a different description of it. And a lot of the ketone salts are racemic. They have the D form and the L form and they were always racemic. And Dr. Veitch said, I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. There's been accidents in the past where drug companies made things racemic and oops, it resulted in birth defects, unintended consequences of taking the half of the molecule that your body isn't designed to take. So a lot of the ketone salts were racemic and then they finally over time switched to 80, 90% of the D form. But then now some companies are saying, oh, it's the L form, we've isolated the L form and the L form is better for the heart and for the brain.

Speaker 1
And it's just like, what? And it's just... And consumers love the next unproven thing to like, you know, this is the next thing without science that, you know, proves anything and I think it's just garbage and it's just a technique to sell something that is new and improved and it's going the exact opposite direction of what Veach wanted, which was the chiral version, the body can use the D-form.

People talking about the L-form and how it might be a signaling molecule only and the signaling gets into the system the same way as the D-form and it stays in longer. And so look, it literally looks higher in blood ketone numbers and I've had even CEOs of these ketone companies, I like the guy, but I tried to explain to him, he's showing this chart saying, look at the L-B-H-B, look how high it is. You're in ketosis. I'm like, no, the body doesn't know how to use it. It's foreign. So it's, it's pooling. It's just sitting there not being, not going down. It's not, this is an example of, you know, I said before, I can make something make the ketones look higher, which is what I could add L-B-H-B, it'll block the door. It'll look higher. It looks more effective. It looks more bioavailable, but it's just pooling. It's not getting out of the system because the body, it's foreign to the body. The body doesn't know how to break it down. But if you're a consumer and you see a chart and like, look how much higher this is, how am I going to explain that? So yeah, there's this new trend that maybe L-B-H-B is the signal. But my analogy is like the, if you're in a Ferrari, turning on the car is a signal. But if it has no gas, what's the point? The D has the signal, but then it has the energy behind it to do what the signal needs. And there are unintended consequences of having something that is just the signal without the energy.

And it's that oopsie stuff that Dr. Beach was really adamant about only doing the part that your body makes. Now then they say, oh, well, they found in some subjects 0.05%, like a super, super tiny amount of the L-form and they now say, oh, it's bioavailable. It's in your system, so it's natural. They're now calling that half of the molecule bioavailable. So that's just like exploding the consumer's confusion of like, what? Like you said before that they are, was the available one. And then now you're saying, this racemic stuff is 100% bioavailable, super, super confusing and confusing in cells products, but that it does poison the well.

Because people say, oh, I've tried ketones and they don't work. Well, did you try ester? No. Well, you know, it's drastically different. So let's say, you know, there's a. a trace amount of the L form, so therefore the body and I honestly, I'll tell you, I have to go into AI and be like, is this normal? Like in other molecules, if there's trace amounts in the body, do you consider it bioavailable? And they're like, hell no. I think formaldehyde might've been one of the examples that your body can technically make trace amounts of it.

Speaker 1
Doesn't mean that that's bioavailable. Doesn't mean that it's good for you. Doesn't mean that the body knows what to do with it. So it's really confusing the marketplace.

Melanie Avalon
This is a reason why this conversation is so valuable. So like even for me, I only had brief notes written down from D versus L form and they I'm trying to remember when because I pulled some of my notes I had had for when I was prepping for Dom.

And so what I had written down was D is what the body makes more likely becomes energy can convert to L and tissues and then L signaling anti inflammatory the form that sticks around longer in the cell. So now I have like a completely new perspective on those words.

Speaker 1
There are there are two researchers that are pro on that side and you just named one of them

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So I was going to say, I think it was from listening to his podcast on like Rogan or something that I wrote that.

Speaker 1
And the other, you know, 99% of scientists are on the other side. So you, you know, you gotta, but the D converted to L. No, no, no. I don't, maybe in suckling mice, they found some conversion. I think it was that L converting the D, but not in adult mice and hell, not in humans. We've had people take huge amounts of L and their D did not move.

So the D was not converting and sorry, the L and high doses was not converting to any D. But yeah, it sticks around longer. But Dr. Veach also said about that. You could also drink and don't do this, but you could drink acetone, nail polish. That's one of the three ketones. It might even suppress your appetite. Doesn't mean that it's good for you. Oh, but it's a good signal. Doesn't mean that it's good for you. So just because something might be a signal and stick around longer because the body doesn't know what to do with it, because it's a foreign object and there have been, I think, I don't know if it was the Fin Fin, there's been a couple drugs that were also recalled because they were supposed to be a signaling molecule. But then over time, it was an oopsie. You have the signal, but you don't have the energy behind it. So the D form is both the signal and the energy that is designed to work with the signal. Having a signal with no energy might have unintended consequences. It might help you lose weight more. But it doesn't mean that it's...

Melanie Avalon
Good for you. Yeah, the Fintham was where it basically just ramped up their metabolism and people would die, right? Like they didn't have the energy to support it.

Speaker 1
I also took, if one pill helps me lose weight, what does five pills do? So I wouldn't be surprised if people died that it was also from just taking it wrong and taking too much of it.

But yeah, they probably pulled it because regardless of how much people take. And there was an incident where someone, there was a paper where someone took too much ketone ester and the paper said, all these weight loss things and it talked about ketone ester and it turned out that this person was on a five day fast on metformin, diabetic, they're taking $100 worth of ketone ester a day. And after a few days, yeah, they were bad off. They survived, but they were just taking the extreme. I think they were trying to lose weight for a wedding and just throwing everything at it. And it's just like, no, it doesn't work that way. So their ketones, I don't know, maybe it got up to 20, 25. And that's too acidic in the blood. You don't want that.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I can't let you leave without, I still have questions about the hard key tones, which is what.

Speaker 1
I was gonna we haven't even started on that. So I got I got I got time I set aside my my friend pushed his push the 630 dinner to 730 so that was you know, God sent so Yeah, let's that's that's the good stuff.

Like the ketone ester is Amazing in and of itself, but it's hard to explain The hard ketones is easier to explain. You're trying to get off of alcohol. This still gives you a buzz and You don't get the Withdrawal symptoms. You don't get the the cravings for it You don't get a craving for a second and third drink. You just get satisfied and content You're not always clamoring for more and more it blocks people's Withdrawal symptoms from breaking, you know getting off of alcohol Non-addictive in and of itself. It's just a much easier to explain Concept. So yeah, let's talk about that. Okay

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Yes, I have so many questions.

So like I said, I do remember first seeing the pitch and thinking, I think I first thought if you're ever curious what people think, because you're talking about the difficulty around marketing and branding.

Speaker 1
And I love hearing, you know, your first reaction to disbelief or.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and I could be misremembering because we know memory is faulty, but my recollection is that My initial thought was that this was it did this had alcohol in it But then I think it says somewhere I mean, it makes it clear somewhere that it's like not there that it's not alcohol and then I was just so like I said Earlier, I was so mind-blowing. I was like, how did I not know there was this?

Alcohol like ketone

Speaker 1
So let's get into the technicality of it. So I am fine releasing it, but it just doesn't make for good and easy headlines on the website.

So the molecule that we call ketohol is R13 butane diol. The word diol means dye means two, and OL means alcohol. So on the one hand, from a chemistry standpoint, one would argue that it's a diol. It's a two-alcohol molecule. And that freaks people out, because they say, wait a second. I don't want alcohol. It's like, no, no, what you don't want is ethanol. Ethanol is what's in beer, vodka, wine. If you distill beer, vodka, wine, it's the same exact Everclear. It's the same exact ethanol. There really shouldn't be any difference in your hangover. Sometimes the tannins and wine might make it different. So people say, oh, I don't want alcohol. It's like, no, no, what you're saying is you don't want ethanol. This is just a completely different molecule that, from a chemistry standpoint, one could argue is alcohol. But then from an FDA standard, the FDA only considers ethanol to be alcohol. So we're allowed to say that it is alcohol-free.

And I want people to understand it, but we normally don't have this long-form way to explain it. So I'm fine doing it now. And it kind of can scare people. Like, oh, well, I'm blood tested or drug tested. Yeah, you're drug tested for ethanol. Or I can't have a drop of ethanol because once I have one drop, then I have to have another can. And then I go into a three-day vendor. This doesn't do that.

And people think that with ethanol, they think that they're addicted to the buzz. And I love explaining this. I said, if that was the case, then you would have a hit of marijuana, and you'd be fine with not having alcohol, right? Does that work for you? No, I still crave alcohol. So you're not really the addiction. It really isn't the buzz. The addiction is ethanol converts to acetyl aldehyde. That's the toxic molecule that people are trying to avoid.

And our product does not convert into acetyl aldehyde. So I'll explain that in a second. The acetyl aldehyde goes then to acetate in the brain. And that is the molecule that your body's craving. And so if you have the THC, but you don't have the acetate, you're still going to have the craving and the withdrawals. It's an energy source that the brain can use. With the R13 butane dial, it's a dial. So when it converts, it doesn't convert to acetyl aldehyde. It converts to, I shouldn't know the name of it, a different type of aldehyde that is far, far less toxic, if toxic at all. because the body can't break it down the same way acetaldehyde. Kind of like certain sugars, if the sugar chain is long enough, the body doesn't count it as a calorie because it still tastes sweet, but it's not caloric because the body doesn't break it down and go into fat stores. So this is a two-part acetaldehyde bound to itself is basically what it is, and it's just far, far less toxic. When it's smaller, in this instance, it is just more toxic. But when the molecule is larger, it doesn't make as much havoc.

Speaker 1
And then after that step, it then converts to beta hydroxybutyrate, which does go to the brain, and it satisfies that acetate craving because it's a very similar molecule. So that's why people that have that craving for the acetate, they can go from, we have a podcast, an hour podcast of a woman who was doing one bottle of wine per night for a year or two, a nurse, she switched to two cans of our stuff. And it was just cold turkeys straight up, no problems. And she didn't crave a third can or fourth can, she just had one or two and was content.

So ethanol and the acetate, and the blood sugar spikes and crashes of regular alcohol, oftentimes make people crave more of it. So you have one, you have another, and then you have the late night munchies on top of that, because it makes your brain dumber. So you eat worse food, which can have a cold caloric thing to it, the hard ketones, people have one or two, they'll feel the buzz. And then they just feel content, they don't feel the need to pound more. And then they're like, you know what, that dinner, I might skip the dinner or I might skip those munchies. So we don't sell it for weight loss. But we have had people say, Hey, I used to have wine every day. And then I have this huge dinner, because I was so hungry from the, you know, the wine, I call it drunchies. Now I took the, you know, the hard ketones. And instead of taking whatever, 500 calories of multiple cans, I'm only taking one or 200 calories of this. And then I just skipped dinner. And you know, she was losing weight, she wasn't losing weight from our drink, she was losing weight, because she just wasn't eating dinner, or wasn't eating junk food, you know, after the alcohol. And that adds up day after day. And then that wine person, after a month or two, I called her up and said, Hey, I know you're not ordering anymore. She's like, Oh, I'm sorry, I just, I just stopped, I just went to water. I'm like, don't be sorry, like, that's the perfect, that's, that's perfection, like helping you get off of alcohol as a short term tool. And then now she buys it occasionally to go to parties or, you know, in the summer, but it's just not a daily requirement, so using this as a tool to break that habit, and then you either stop completely or leave it for special occasions and just not have to have it on a daily basis, like alcohol. And people think, oh, but it's so expensive. Well, if you're comparing a $1 drink of Natty Light, whatever, to our drink that might be like $5, yeah, it's going to seem more. But for that one, you're going to be drinking $5 or $10, and then you're going to eat late night pizza, $20. With ours, you might drink one or two, and then you're going to skip the 800 calories of the dinner, and you're using this as a transition tool to get off of alcohol. And what is that value worth in the tens of thousands of dollars if you're drinking alcohol every single night and then suddenly you're not? Like that's cheaper than rehab.

Melanie Avalon
so fascinating. So the, quote, intoxicating effect that you get from that dial, from the R13 butane dial compared to ethanol, how does that compare as far as like the lack of, you know, inhibitions and like feel good feelings?

And you said like the mice were stumbling, so does it have

Speaker 1
like that effect as well on people? Well, it depends how much you take. So we found that two is the sweet spot and we say limit two and people say, well, why is it say limit two? I said, well, if beer was invented today, they'd probably also say limit two, like let's not do stupid things.

But yeah, the mice were stumbling at much higher doses. And we find that people don't crave or need that. They're just content. And it's a cross between alcohol and THC. So alcohol can be sometimes a little bit of a stimulant and, you know, a social lubricant to go up to someone. So it'll, it'll do that. But it has a little bit more of a sedative type effect of just wanting to relax and, and chill out without that desire to crack open one and another. This one lady who was her husband understood chemistry and just said, you know, no ethanol in the house. Cause her, his wife was having a problem where she would have one sip of a beer or wine and it would just be the next 12. She couldn't stop herself. And then in the morning, the first thing that she'd think about would be going to go get more alcohol with this stuff. She drank half of a can, felt something, which most people don't feel it with half, but she felt something, put it back. And she said the next morning she woke up and not only did she not want like, or need 10, 12 bottles, she woke up the next morning and forgot that she had drank, drank it until the, she opened up the fridge.

She's like, Oh wait, you know, I had half last night. So she it's just a very different molecule. Now, if someone is already off of alcohol, is this for them? I'm like, well, do you want a social lubricant? No. They're like, no, I'm fine. I don't then, then go and have some LaCroix or whatnot. If you, if you're not looking for that, if you're already off of alcohol, but some people that are off of alcohol, they're like, well, I'm off of alcohol because when I work out the next day, I'm just dragging. And sometimes I'll have two coronas and I'm just dragging for two or three days. Or, you know, once you hit 40, you know, those two beers affect half of your next workday. So I'm off of alcohol, but I kind of wish that I could bring it back without those negative things.

You know, so that is a candidate, you know, for them as well. So it's, it's, it's people helping them get off of alcohol and people that already kicked out call to the curb because of the seven reasons that they're having problems with. And then they want to bring something back. I like to say also that one can oftentimes will make people sleep better. Two cans neutral, you go to three and it's going to dip your or ring scores. But compared to alcohol, we have on our Instagram, you know, someone's score that said they had two shots of alcohol one night and their sleep score was 35 and they had, you know, two of ours and their sleep score was, you know, 80 and where they might normally be 85 shooting for 90. So it's still exponentially better than regular alcohol. Yeah, so that's the marketplace for that. That one is an amazing molecule for its own thing.

Speaker 1
Now, some companies will take that molecule and say, oh, it's for cognition, longevity, clarity. And I'm just like, what?

Well, it raises your blood ketones. So we're just gonna do the science hijacking again. We're gonna cite 10 ketone ester papers and say, look, our molecule in the fine print, it says technically they use ketone ester in these papers, but they both raise blood ketones. So that's all that matters. And they're trying to pass off this molecule as an energy performance drink. It was just like, no, it's not the right use for it.

Melanie Avalon
another population that might be useful for because a lot of people they don't understand where the Like the hangover effects and the negative effects come from ethanol and it's from the that you mentioned like that I said aldehyde in between conversion that happens and actually is like a tangent. That's why I take Z-biotics.

Have you heard of them? Yeah. Yeah. I love them. They take like a genetic Probiotic genetically modified probiotic that breaks down a set aldehyde in the gut But the Asian population tends to have a genetic tendency to not be able to break down a set aldehyde, which is why they You know have a low lower tolerance for alcohol. So I imagine that

Speaker 1
the red face. Let's call it it. It's the Asian glow. They call it Asian glow, and there's another word for it.

But yeah, they get the red face, but they also get breathing impairment. I read a paper about how it just makes their breathing significantly worse. This does not do that. It does not give them the Asian glow and actually can improve asthmatic breathing issues. So it does the opposite for the breathing, and you don't get the

Melanie Avalon
the red glow. So that would definitely be a use case for that.

How did you... Because we were talking before this about the different flavors and everything. And so it comes in spritzers, which are out right now, but are there...

Speaker 1
coming back? Yeah, there's a wine spritzer. We're probably not gonna come back with that because wine is, so this ingredient we put in 17 grams into one can and we taste the ingredient straight up. It is pretty bad.

So we're up against these other non-alcoholic, quote unquote, functional drinks. They mainly have L-theanine. L-theanine is a great molecule, by the way. It's one of the few things that actually will take the edge off. So if people want the cheapest route, like go buy some L-theanine pills. But there are these functional drinks that will have L-theanine plus five other ingredients, like lip balm, not lip balm, lemon balm, ashwagandha. I don't think those magnesium, those things don't even come close to doing anything. Ashwagandha takes 30 days to work. So why are you gonna buy a can that says, this says ashwagandha and it's for marketing purposes. It's for SEO purposes. L-theanine, yes, save yourself some money, have a LaCroix and an L-theanine capsule.

But I got off track there. I need more ketones, it's been two hours. I know.

Melanie Avalon
the different like flavors and like.

Speaker 1
spritzers in the can. The problem with the the wine is that wine connoisseurs have a palette and expectation of a certain thing and these non-alcoholic wines they're able to just put a bunch of sugar in it and so a they put sugar in so we don't put sugar in any of our stuff and they don't put 17 grams of a not milligrams grams of a very nasty raw ingredients so it's really hard to overcome that bitterness and make it somewhat okay and that spritz we only had that because there was a demand for it but it just it didn't taste as good as arpina.

Arpina is more crack it open sit on a beach relax and actually works together it actually tastes good but we so we're probably we might do one more run of the spritz but it just it wasn't as good and then we have the ginger mule which because of the spiciness in the ginger it helps block some of that bitterness of the drink so if but if you don't like ginger mule you're not going to magically like this i like it sometimes people say oh i didn't like the that one that's like well do you normally like ginger meals like no no i normally don't well then you're not gonna like this but people who like ginger mules tend to like that one and then we then came out with a raw version for bartenders that want to make their own recipes and some people misunderstand that this is supposed to be raw no sweeteners in it and we even we name we literally name the product raw and nasty like in the title in the brand in the like front and center do not drink this straight up raw and nasty to like manage expectations we still get people say oh i had that it was nasty like so we advertise properly and then they miss the part that this is a bartender base you have to mix it with stuff and you put it into 12 ounces of water you can do stevia and monk fruit if you're a purist but they tend to not really cut the bitter as well as sucralose which some people might hate sucralose just cuts it much better and that's what every single bartender in america uses that's what every starbucks uses when they have sugar free it's always sucralose for a reason because it tastes like sugar but then recently we came out with something we have the two ounce ginger mule in a concentrate and the idea is to add that to a 12 ounce seltzer and by the way if you took that raw two ounce and put it into like a grape liqueur it does not work like you have to seriously have some added sweeteners to it so manage expectations the ginger mule you can put that straight into a 12 ounce club soda and it tastes exactly like our 12 ounce drink but it's more portable you can take it on an airplane you can sneak it into bars take it to parties and just ask for a seltzer and add it Our two most recent products are designed to be actually taken straight up, just straight up shooters, as opposed to diluting it. And one is called Cinnaburn, so it's a cinnamon based, it burns, and you just take it as a straight shot, you don't really dilute it. And the other one is called Frostbite, and that's the opposite direction of heat with more of a freezer burn type taste.

Speaker 1
And that's to be taken straight up as well. We call those shooters as opposed to a concentrate that you add to 12 ounce. The ultimate end goal for all of this is a beer. Beer is what I've been trying to do for five years, but it's really hard to overcome 15 to 17 grams of this super bitter ingredient and put that into a low calorie, light and refreshing beer and not destroy the beer flavor.

But that is the ultimate goal. Well, I'm

Melanie Avalon
I'm super excited because when we first connected, you did not have the frostbite, or I don't think that the, when did you come out with the frostbite and the cinnab? Like April 1st.

Speaker 1
of 2 2026 and for me.

Melanie Avalon
Like I said, I'm quite a wine drinker, so I was wanting to do more of like the shot route beforehand and then see how it affects my, oh yeah, oh wait, that's something. So if you do combine it, like if you had it and you go out and you still have alcohol, you might just drink less.

Speaker 1
It's okay to so people ask, you know, can you mix it? We suggest not mixing it's kind of like putting gasoline in a Tesla But that's fine If you if you want to mix it you can but sometimes people have reported that their hangover is actually bigger So they they normally do one glass of wine.

They know what their hangover is They take some of this and one glass of wine It made their hangover worse So we don't know just like it increases the delivery of caffeine. Maybe it's increasing the acetyl aldehyde, you know, we don't know But yeah, you you can mix it some people have reported You know taking it in between Their regular alcohol this one like rockstar guy that would drink like three bottles of wine bender He took a couple cans of our stuff throughout the night and he only did half a bottle of wine He just didn't have the desire and the craving it was just content so you you can mix them but I hope that there's a way that we can make it so that you are fine with you know, no alcohol altogether. Well

Melanie Avalon
two things. One, I guess the main reason was I also like I don't, I only eat like whole foods. I don't drink like flavory drinks normally. So it might be a little bit of a

Speaker 1
You might be fine with the raw. Some hardcore people, I eat my bitters, I eat bitter food, I eat bitter greens, and there's a few people that will just take the raw straight up and they'll take the raw in club soda and they're just fine with the bitter.

So if your palate has changed, which is admirable, to not crave sweetness and be fine with bitter, you can try it. Just don't blame me if you're like, no, no, Frank, that was really, really bad.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I did try it and I was like...

Speaker 1
Which one, the raw one? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.

Melanie Avalon
How was it? It was a lot for me to take in taste-wise. It's appropriately named.

Speaker 1
straight up are you deluded in something and.

Melanie Avalon
I'm trying to remember. I think I, well, at first I tried it straight up, but I'm trying to remember if I tried like mixing it with element or something. The point is though, I'm really excited about the shot thing because I was telling you, like right before I go out, I always like down like intense mouth. I don't drink the mouthwash, but I do like intense like minty mouthwash and stuff.

And it literally would like, it would fit seamlessly into what I'm already doing in my habit. Yeah. As long as you know.

Speaker 1
not driving as long as you're not driving to that club.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, I don't ever drive to it when I go out.

Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, then that'd be perfect for you. Yeah, and then you can sneak it you can sneak it into the club So then maybe you can avoid having that next two or three drinks. You can instead

Melanie Avalon
top it off with this. You are tapping into my talent because right now what I do is I sneak in my organic wine. I have so many sneak in skills.

So I can literally sneak in a bottle of wine because I can only drink low alcohol, organic, dry wine. So I'm really excited and I bet listeners are excited as well.

Speaker 1
Well, you could try to put the raw into that low alcohol dry wine, it might kill it, but you could try. I don't know.

I could. If you have a thick, you know, a thick red wine that has body to it, I don't know, depends how much of a connoisseur you are, it might completely kill it or depends also on dilution. Like what if you're putting in one of our two ounce drinks into your entire bottle, it might be not noticeable, but then are you going to feel the effects of it? I don't know. You could also, I mean, do you do any non-alcoholic wine? So it's funny,

Melanie Avalon
as you were saying, like the goal of getting up, like, you know, cutting out alcohol. I am a complete wine snob.

Like I have a wine certification. My book is partly about wine. Like I, so I'm like really into wine. So I, no, I don't drink.

Speaker 1
alcoholic wine? Well let's get you really into R13B10Dial and you can be it you can be our flavor you know when we come out with new flavors you can be our flavor you know sampler and be like hmm you know how it hits to my palate and you can give us all that feedback.

Melanie Avalon
I do wine tastings. I take notes whenever I open a bottle in my apartment. Yeah, I'm intense.

I go to classes. So yeah, no, I'm completely down. And I'm really excited to try the minty one. And I bet listeners are dying now. Oh, and I haven't said this yet. So I've definitely done a... I would say a 180 because I would say before talking to you, I had no intention of trying exogenous ketones. And I hadn't even looked into which specific ones to take. But now after talking to you, I'm like, okay, I'm definitely going to experiment with those and find the use case for them for me, which I do think there are quite a few use cases.

Speaker 1
also jet lag flying. So if you're multi hour, eight 15 hour flights, it's great. So it helps you fast during those flights because you want your blood sugar to be low, especially for radiation and, and for your circadian rhythm, not eaten the entire flight and just take a cap full of the K for every couple of hours, land, take two capfuls. And we've had great reports of people saying that their jet lag was completely gone.

They were able to do a 10 mile run right when they got, right when they landed. And they've gone from like Dubai to Australia multiple times. And this was just like seamless. So yeah, people were Cola did a whole podcast on that's like, that's his main way of taking it. That's his use case is every time he flies. Because there, if you watch the Dr. Beach protocol, I mean that Dr. Beach podcast, he talks about the, the effects on what it can do for radiation from like flights and other types of radiation. So people use it, you know, for jet lag, sleep. Yeah, we've listed, you know,

Melanie Avalon
I wonder if I could use it so despite having a whole podcast about it for almost a decade and doing intermittent fasting every day of my life, I don't really do like longer fasts and I would like to and the thing is I can't sleep like I just can't like I could keep fasting but I can't sleep.

Speaker 1
I can't sleep because your ketones go up too much.

Melanie Avalon
that you're too energetic? Yeah, like for me, because kind of like what you're talking about earlier with people and their meal timing or not signaling to their body what it's doing at that time.

For me, it's like I eat dinner and that's what like I go to sleep. So until I eat dinner, I'm like, uh,

Speaker 1
No, because you're getting the blood glucose spike and then you're getting the crash effectively. And that's helping you go to sleep maybe.

Melanie Avalon
Maybe, yeah, or just like the satiation. I find when I'm in the fastest state, I'm too awake.

Speaker 1
I would think your blood sugar spikes when you have that one meal, even if it's keto, your blood sugar spikes and what happens after a spike, a crash, crash makes you lethargic and you're just saying, hey, I'm going to go straight into my siesta, which is instead of lunch, going straight into a full on sleep. Yeah, it could definitely do that. I don't think the exogenous ketones would help you in that sense because it's not going to help with that. You're still going to be awake. It's not going to make you go to sleep.

Maybe the alphinine could help with that. Maybe you run for longer than you normally do at night. So then right afterward, you're just like, oh, I'm tired or something to help you knock out. Yeah, I don't know about that. But yes, people have used the extra for a multi-day fast. My cousin who doesn't understand anything about ketones and he did the colonoscopy and the doctor said you have to fast for two days and he went in and the doctor said, well, how much did you eat? He's like, nothing. He's like, no, no, no. It's okay. I just need to know. Did you have drinks? Did you have some cereal? What did you eat? He's like, no, I didn't have anything. He's like, how is that possible? No patient comes in and actually is compliant with what we tell them, which is not to eat. He's like, no, I just had this ketonester drink and I just took it three or four times a day and it was no big deal. I did two days, no food. And the doctor's like, what is that? He's a colonoscopy is what this guy does and he should be giving it to all of his patients as a way to help people do the two hour fast. So yeah, people do use it for multi-day, but your instance of not being able to sleep may be the hard ketones because the hard ketones is a sedative. So maybe you take the ketonester during the day and then you unwind and maybe that would work actually. That could work for you. There's a lot of.

Melanie Avalon
experimentation to be had here. I will have to report back.

And yes, so definitely I've done a 180 on that front. And I bet listeners are super eager to get their hands on things. So we do have a code. So if listeners go to Melanie Avalon.com slash hard ketones, or Melanie Avalon.com slash ketone aid, they'll both go to the same website, you can use the coupon code Melanie Avalon and that will get you free shipping on your order. So definitely definitely.

Speaker 1
take advantage of that. Who has to have subscriptions? We don't do this like 50% off stuff.

It's a 10 to 15% off subscription, and then that code will stay in the subscription as well and just keep on, it stacks with the discount of the subscriptions. So it keeps on going on.

Melanie Avalon
subscriptions, can they pause or cancel?

Speaker 1
They pause and cancel and we even after subscription triggers, we have a system like not send out the product for six hours just to even give people even more time to be like, oops, you know, I got it. And even if you do get it, we then send you and you don't want it.

We then send you a label and you just send it back. Sometimes when we're sold out of product, we actually might send you a label of another customer be like, hey, well, we send it from Kentucky to California and we've got somebody else in Northern California that needs it. So ship it up to them as long as it's not open. So yeah, I hate the subscriptions. We try to make it with other products that come automatically and hard to stop. We've actually tried to count the number of clicks to make it as easy to stop or pause the subscriptions. So it's not that hassle.

Melanie Avalon
No, I love hearing that and having my own product lines myself. It's such a thing with subscriptions because it's like, listen friends, get the subscription. You're going to save money.

And I think people have this fear because there are other brands that will really lock you in.

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. I've gotten phone calls from people thinking that I was a keto shark tank scam pill thing. And it was so bad that Shark Tank actually put out a thing saying we did not support, which is why the product could never be on Shark Tank.

Because these keto pills said, oh, all five shark tanks finally agreed to buy one thing. And people will do a Google search for ketones, come up with us and call me and be like, you won't get me out of my subscription. And I find out that they bought some of these pill things and they can't cancel. And I literally walk them through, okay, here's how you go to the bank. Here's how you report them to the FTC. We don't do that. We don't even have anti-passwords. So our entire system is like no passwords. It'll put in your email address and it'll give you a link so you don't have to remember passwords. So try to make it as simple as possible and a three day warning beforehand that you can one button press say, nope, I don't want it. But people miss those emails. So you can get those sent to you via text as well. And then there's a pause after the order is made. And then people say, Oh, no, didn't want that. Yeah, not trying to trick anyone and overship people's stuff, because I'm just gonna have to end the pain for shipping both ways. I don't want you to have the product if you don't want more of it.

Melanie Avalon
amazing. So friends, no fear, get the subscription and go to Melanie Avalon.com slash hard ketones. And that will give you access to everything.

Use the code Melanie Avalon. You can use that with the subscriptions as well. And that will get you free shipping. So awesome. Okay, wow. So I've decided sometimes I it's very rare that I do this, but I do this occasionally. I think I'm going to air this on both podcasts because the intermittent fasting podcast audience definitely needs to hear this as well. This has been incredible. Thank you so much. Thank you for all that you're doing.

Speaker 1
too much. And I think a lot of this information is just not out there. So it's a little counter to some of the stuff. So it's going to be confusing for the customer.

They've got to decide which camp you're going to be in. Are you going to be in Camp Prosemic or Camp Kyral? I even talked to one NIH scientist who's worked with Dr. Beach about this whole L thing. And he just rolled his eyes. He's like, you know, we work on this stuff for 40 years. And you have these non, you have these people going in the opposite direction of what like Krebs would do and just be like, okay, oh, yeah. And you know what, if it works for you, great. But make sure you ask for your money back. If it doesn't, like, take that time to and report and report it, write about it, the reviews. But even if it does tend to work in the short term, it's just the unintended consequences of taking something that your body isn't compatible with, like, I'm not sure it's worth even the short term benefits.

Melanie Avalon
Well, this has been absolutely amazing because especially when I don't know whenever you see a brand which and you guys have incredible epic branding and you always also wonder like what's the intention behind this the science and you're legit you're like the real deal and we don't have sales.

Speaker 1
So a lot of these companies have Black Friday sales and we had a sale that said, our product is still 33% less than this other company's Black Friday deal every day. So we don't have sales. There's no coupon codes out there. It's just not our style.

It's like we dropped the price for everyone when we are able to drop the price. And just recently, we were out of stock of the hard ketones for a long time. So just the other day, we finally got some stocks and now we have multi-pack discounts back in. And so we save on the shipping if we send you two or three. So we pass that along to you. So there's larger quantity discounts, but we don't do these sales and Black Friday stuff.

And we had that $1 off Black Friday sale that did really well, kind of making fun of. You've been waiting for this. Like, here it is. It's a dollar. We're not really into that gimmicky type stuff and the 40% off subscription stuff. It works. Companies swear by it, but then you just get a lot of pissed off people when their subscriptions trigger and they don't want it, even that 40% off.

Melanie Avalon
thank you for what you're doing. And also thank you for, you know, like actually going out there and reading the studies and like getting stuff retracted and just everything you're doing, it's super awesome.

So I'm excited again, friends. Oh, and any other links to put out there, like we have the company.

Speaker 1
The Keaton Asher, you haven't tried that yet. I'm going to send it to you just as an FYI to our listeners. There's three different versions. The Ke4 is our most concentrated. So that's 50% concentrated. So it's got a lot of bite. Some people put a little bit of water into it, but it doesn't work fully diluted, just doesn't work well. Then we have our much better tasting Keaton shot, which has six times more water. And that one you can put into a water bottle and it tastes like a peach squeezed like nothing, like a La Croix without the bubbles. Or you can take that one straight up and it's not as good as orange juice, but it's just completely fine. Then we have a new hybrid one now called Ke2, which has twice as much water as Ke4, a lot less burn. It's not as nice as the Keaton shot, but it's just easier and still TSA friendly. So that's on the Keaton Asher side.

So I'll send you the Ke2, which is, you would take twice as much as all the protocols that I might've said for Ke4 instead of 10 MLs, you take 20 MLs pre-podcast. I'll send you that to try. Oh, and then we were sold out for a while, but we'll be bringing it back. Might as well mention it. Our snake water is our 12 ounce energy drink alternative. So no sugar, no caffeine, no fake caffeine. So a lot of these places now are saying, oh, no caffeine, but they put in a metabolite of caffeine. So it's still a stimulant. It's just like, and they say, oh, it's less jitters. Okay. Well then why'd you put in 150 grams of L-theanine? L-theanine blocks the jitters. So it's still a stimulant. So snake water is like the nootropic plus Keaton Asher energy drink that we're, we should have that back out soon.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. I'm so excited. And I'm really excited about the minty.

Speaker 1
I guess that's for you.

Melanie Avalon
before going out oh my goodness I want it now not right now I'll see if I can

Speaker 1
overnight it we'll see we'll see how fast we get to you

Melanie Avalon
i could do it on friday no wait today's wednesday i got like once once

Speaker 1
a week. So maybe, let's say you take two or three, one beforehand, and if you are able to skip the wine and then the next day you're like, wow, I had a great night and I have nothing, you're kind of used to the wine, a little bit of a hangover, but you're kind of used to it.

And what if that was completely gone and you just feel like a regular Wednesday morning, that might be a minute. Would that be enough to maybe get away from that luscious flavor grape wine connoisseur?

Melanie Avalon
Or no. If it happens, it will be the biggest testimonial you can have.

I mean, so basically right now, I am neurotic about the wine I drink. So it's always lower alcohol, it's always organic, European. And I do like all the things like I wear glutathione patches and NAD patches, and I take antibiotics. I have like my whole protocol. So I don't really get like hung over. I will though be more like tired sometimes the next day. So I will, I think I'll definitely notice a difference. My point, my point is like, I will see a difference, I'm sure.

Speaker 1
When you had the strawberry spritz the wine as a connoisseur, I would have think that you would have been like, it's not really winey enough.

Melanie Avalon
It was. That's why I tried. That's why.

Speaker 1
tried the raw. Oh, it was not whiny enough for you. It didn't give you that full body.

Melanie Avalon
No, I didn't I didn't taste it because I did I not end up tasting I don't think I ended up tasting it because of what I was saying about the alone now I'm realizing that it is supposed to be like whiny I guess I was thinking that it was like still like a sweetened

Speaker 1
drink. So you did not try it or you did try it?

Melanie Avalon
I didn't try the wine one, I don't think.

Speaker 1
couple of cans laying around. I'll send you that, but I want you to lower your expectations because it's not going to be like some Cabernet that, you know, you pop open in Italy.

So I think you'll like the frost. I think you like the frost.

Melanie Avalon
I'm excited. So yes. Okay. I think what I should do... No, I'm just having all the ideas of what I'm going to do. So I'll report back listeners after trying all these things.

Oh my goodness. Okay. This has been absolutely amazing. Anything else that you wanted to share with listeners?

Speaker 1
before we go. I think we really nailed every single thing.

Melanie Avalon
Having podcasted especially about like intermittent fasting for almost a decade. This was like everything I've needed for a Long time like I needed this conversation

Speaker 1
missing element, the missing piece.

Melanie Avalon
of it. Great. So thank you. Thank you.

So actually the last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day the importance of mindset. So what is something that you're grateful for? I love traveling with my

Speaker 1
family. We just got back from the Dominican Republic and just being able to do that and be able to explore the world. I realize that that's not something that's available to everyone and I'm very grateful for that.

I love that.

Melanie Avalon
amazing and I'm assuming you use all of this to deal with the jet lag on the travels so thank you so so much Frank this has been absolutely amazing so grateful for what you're doing and can't wait to talk soon and try all the things thank you bye thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed if you enjoyed the show please consider writing a review on iTunes we couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors show notes and artwork library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders see you next week

Welcome to Episode 465 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 465 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, Win, Wine, Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine, and I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 465 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Barry Conrad for, I realize this episode airs in March and this is actually the first time we are recording together in 2026, so I'm excited. How are you, Barry?

Barry Conrad
I'm so excited. Hey, Mel. Hey, listeners, how are you doing? Hope you had an awesome weekend and you're ready for an amazing week.

I'm doing great. I'm freezing, but I'm doing great. It's really, really, really, really cold in New York. I know that we're in the future at this point when this airs, but it's still pretty chilly. How is it in an ATL, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
It warmed up today. It was cold. I'm sad. Spring is coming. I don't like March. I'm gonna be even like less happy when this actually airs. Not really. I'm a happy person, but I don't like spring.

Barry Conrad
why spring is such a good month because it's a good balance of sun and a nice cool temperature not too hot not too cold do you know what i mean

Melanie Avalon
So you know how they're like winter is coming. I'm like, spring is coming. That's so funny. Yeah. So I'll just take gratitude for it not being March yet.

Barry Conrad
It's so funny because listeners, I was talking, well, not talking, I was listening to a voice message from Melanie and she was relaying how she was out and it was freezing cold and she was not looking like an Eskimo. She was, you know, wearing summery clothes, you could say. And people were looking at her like her head was chopped off, like she was crazy because she loves the cold and people were like, why are you dressed like that? You're like, I like it.

Can you explain how that is comfortable? It's not.

Melanie Avalon
It's not comfortable because that's what I say. When people say, aren't you cold? I say yes, but I like it.

It doesn't, I mean, it's not like pleasant, but it makes you feel so good and it's good for you, so good for you.

Barry Conrad
I mean, at least you won't get uncomfortably hot, which is good. You can always be cosy, right?

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. Yeah.

Actually, I have two very pressing things for us to discuss. Tell me. For listeners. And one actually relates to one of the questions. But before that, and I realize, again, this will have happened a while ago, but Barry, we have to talk about the new food pyramid.

Barry Conrad
I know. Oh wow. I know. When I saw this come out, I was like finally A and B, you know, there's still a ways to go, but I'm really glad that it's changed.

What do you think? Like what went through your mind when you saw this headline, when you saw this news job?

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's funny. So when did, okay, I'm seeing, I'm looking at an article about it. So I guess this happened. I know, I know when it happened. It was the day after, well, it's January 7th, maybe. It was the day after I interviewed Gabrielle Lyon for this show. Listeners, definitely check out that episode that aired with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. It was episode... Wait, is it this week's episode right now? Yeah. So it was episode 458. If you missed it, check it out.

It is a treasure trove of all things protein and fasting and supporting muscle with aging and how to live forever strong. In any case though, she was going, the day I was interviewing her, she was going to DC the next day for this announcement. She already knew what it was going to be. I guess the people who know, they get the information ahead of time. But yeah, so it's wild because basically they flipped the old pyramid on its head essentially. So in the old pyramid, the bottom of it was grains, cereals, things like that. Then on top of that, fruits and veggies. Then on top of that, dairy and meat. And then the very top was like discretionary things. They inverted it. So it's an upside down pyramid now. And now at the top is protein, dairy, and healthy fats on one side, veggies and fruits on the other. And then it filters down. And honestly, I think some of it's kind of random, the ordering of it. Why is shrimp lower down? I focus on the shrimp one. I'm like, shrimp is great for you. Why is shrimp... I don't understand why shrimp is lower down. They still have at the top, olive oil. They have whole milk at the top, green beans. And why is the very, very top thing a chicken or a turkey? I just want to know how they decided the placement. There's like a steak on top and right below that is salmon. But then at the bottom is still whole grains, but because the pyramid is inverted, you're having more of fruits and veggies, protein, dairy, healthy fats, and less whole grains.

Barry Conrad
I'm loving that this change has happened. A, I don't know who decides. I mean, what compelled them to make this decision? I'm really, really curious.

And then secondly, I'm just really glad that protein's getting its glow up. You know, it's really finally up the top where it belongs. And, you know, fat was basically demonized before. Lower fat everything, high carb, grain, everything. And now it's just, it's much more of a, it's basically, it's a thing of the past now, the old one. And I like that we're not told that carbs is the foundation of health kind of thing anymore. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm, yeah. It's less about fear and more about balance. I think, you know, with seeing the steak up there with the salmon and the eggs, the shrimp should probably be bumped up a little bit. I know that you love shrimp. I could see that.

Melanie Avalon
Why is this room down there? I don't understand.

I think it's funny too how they okay so like the top is like fruit and veggies still but then like bananas and grapes they dropped down. I'm assuming because bananas are starchy but why grapes because they're sweeter like I just have a lot of questions. I love it. I still have questions.

Barry Conrad
I also do think maybe it's also like some of this is, and I could be totally projecting this, but maybe some of it is just a market is this way of making it look pretty as well, the order of everything. I don't know.

Or do you think it's just solely based on the foods?

Melanie Avalon
I would say yes. And I feel like it's such a momentous, big decision that you would assume they're putting thought into it.

Because like, why are, I mean, grapes, I understand are sweeter, a sweeter fruit, and they have berries up top, but like, why are oranges like a little bit higher than grapes? And then what is that thing above grapes? Is that a spaghetti squash?

Barry Conrad
It looks like a squash or like a but like butternut or a squash.

Melanie Avalon
an apple is above it. Apples are sweet though, avocado in the middle. And why is butter lower down than dairy?

Barry Conrad
That should be above dairy because it's sort of like creme de la creme of dairy butter, really.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I guess because it's like just a pure, pure fat. What is beneath? Are you looking at a picture in real time right now?

Barry Conrad
I'm looking, I'm looking at the picture here.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, you see like the turkey and then the cheese. Is that ground beef below it?

Barry Conrad
Maybe that's turkey, another big turkey, maybe that's ground beef or ground meat of some sort. Maybe there's ground beef, I think it's ground beef, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Well, in any case... Oh, something I do like about it is the old pyramid included, like the very, very tippy top of the old pyramid was... In the picture I'm looking at, it's not showing what it was, but from my memory, it was like unhealthy stuff, like stuff you probably shouldn't be eating. There's nothing... Everything in here is a whole food.

Well, I mean, by a whole food, I mean, there's like grains, but everything is... They're not putting in cupcakes or... Everything in here is close to a whole food.

Barry Conrad
I'm looking at the, that's wrong. Well, the 90s, the 1980s food pyramid I'm looking at, vegetables are like right at the top, then dairy and eggs, then meat and fish and poultry, then sugary. It's so funny how it's changed.

Over time. Over time, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I will say, okay, I'm looking, I remember. This is the way I remember it. I remember it being fats, oil, sugar, and salt at the top.

Okay. I highly recommend checkout for listeners, the work of, or my podcast interview with Marian Nestle. She wrote a lot of books. One is called Food Politics, but she's been heavily involved in like the political side of this type of stuff. And it's a real, she goes through the entire history. She answers your question that you just asked about like, how was the pyramid determined? How did it evolve? What incentives were involved? And it's all very, it's all very political and money driven.

Barry Conrad
I'm not surprised.

Melanie Avalon
But this is like, I mean, from my perspective, health driven.

Barry Conrad
I think so as well, and I do think it's a massive step in the right direction for people to see this and for young people coming up to be taught this, hopefully in school and to say, hey, this is what a balanced diet could look like, a balanced way of eating.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And question, is this the way you eat?

Barry Conrad
I mean, yes, protein first for me, for sure. I would say that's way more indicative of the way I eat than the old pyramid who got the lots and lots of meat and see if you're at the top. And then yeah, avocado, eggs. I would actually say yes. This is a pretty good representation of how I eat.

How about email?

Melanie Avalon
We should make our own food pyramids. Mine would be meat at the very top and then underneath, fruit, and then nothing else.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. I can actually picture that like me at the very like top layer and then just fruit.

Melanie Avalon
and some cucumbers, which are a fruit vegetable. So awesome.

Well, I'm just very, very happy. I was nervous because Gabrielle was saying that, because I asked her what she was anticipating happening. And she said she was anticipating it getting published. And then there being like a lot of pushback and like attempts to like take it back. But I mean, it looks like it's still standing, hopefully, hopefully come March.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, please do. Please stand. We need this.

Melanie Avalon
I don't stand. So yeah, okay.

The second one, it's a question for you. And I'll go ahead and read the part of the question. So one of our listeners had two questions. And one of them relates to my question for you. So it was from Kelly. And she said, thoughts on the claim that any alcohol is bad for you. Barry, I'm dying to know again, this is in the past when listeners listen, but how was your dry January? And do you think any alcohol is bad for you?

Barry Conrad
Oh, wow. Okay. Two things. Try January was actually really good. I did enjoy it for that. It gave me a sense of control, like it was something to stick to. I didn't feel pressured, you know, going out to drink. Not that I ever do really, but it's just like it was interesting to take a step back and not just drink alcohol just because it's there. I do love my drinks, as you know, and listeners know, but it was really nice. And I do think that with earlier nights as well and other life hacks that I implemented, I do feel way optimized right now. You know, right? I really, really do. I feel rested. I feel energized, strong. Yeah, I feel great.

And then secondly, Kelly asked, you know, is there, is any alcohol bad for you? I don't believe that that claim that, you know, Kelly, it's a good question. And it's something that not just you are listeners wonder about, but so many people, even my mom at one point, I love you mom, but she was like, alcohol is bad for you. Did you see the new article that came out? I'm like, mom, that's you can't just believe all every headline that you read. On one side, you'll hear things like a glass of wine a day is good for your heart. And then on the other side, any alcohol is bad for you. And I think that Mel, like most things in the health, it's the context. You know, people can can say that, but they're usually referencing what they're usually referencing, I think, as a population level data rather than anything else. And I think looking at big groups of people, alcohol doesn't come out as a health supplement. It can impact sleep quality, inflammation, liver health, gut health, insulin sensitivity, purely biological. You know, you don't need alcohol for health. I mean, that part is true. But where I do think where it gets unhealthy, Kelly is when it ignores real life and humans don't live in labs, you know, or experiments. And I think that, you know, for celebrations and culture and routine, you know, we live in those times. And for me, personally, alcohol is not something I view as a health tool. I also don't view it as some moral failure or something that really impacts me negatively. And I am fortunate enough to metabolize alcohol pretty well. And it's not something that I've really had a problem with. My bloods are all great. And I consume quite a bit of it when I'm cooking and whatnot. I do think, you know, frequency does matter. Quantity does matter. It's important to be mindful of anything that we consume. But I don't think any and all alcohol is bad. What do you think, Phil?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. I was actually talking about this. I went on somebody else's podcast yesterday. Actually, it was Dr. Anna Marie. She has the Happy Whole You podcast. And we were talking about this. And I'm really intrigued because I do feel like right now there is this very intense, like sober curious moment and kind of like anti-alcohol moment. And I don't know that it, like where it's coming from. I don't actually, okay, I don't know if it's actually coming from the health stuff as much as it's like an identity type thing, like the zeitgeist, like the cool thing to do, if that makes sense.

Because, well, a few different things and I'll, and I've talked about this a lot, so I'll try to be brief. But if we look at the longest lived populations in the world, they all have moderate alcohol intake with the exception of Loma Linda. And context is important. So I think there's a huge difference. People lump alcohol into this one thing. And so they equate having like a Cosmo or like a mixed cocktail with lots of sugar and high alcohol. That's basically just like alcohol and sugar is a lot of those cocktails compared to like a dry wine, which is lower in alcohol, high in polyphenols, been linked to quite a few different health benefits, can support nitric oxide production, like so many even might even support the gut microbiome, like a lot of different things. And those are just not the same thing. And I think lumping all of alcohol, it's like you were saying, like it can be too binary. It's not like it's all good or all bad. And context and the type of alcohol I think is important. I also think a lot of it has to do with your relationship with it. So if you have an unhealthy relationship with it, if you're using it as a crutch or a way to escape your life, or that's obviously not good. If you're drinking to excess, that's not going to be healthy. But if you have a healthy relationship where you enjoy the experience, it enhances experiences for you of the world and goes well with your meal, I don't think is any alcohol bad for you? I would not say yes to that. Is any alcohol bad for you? Yes, I would not say yes. I think it's all context driven. And I mean, it's even literally you get points for it on the mind diet, which is the most studied diet to reverse cognitive decline, like you get points for having red wine. So on that diet, it's like a good thing. But I support again, people do what you want. But I am really intrigued. But I think about this a lot, the sober curious movement, I'm like, where is this coming from?

Barry Conrad
I do think, and I do know people as well, and I'm sure that you do, and most people listening might have heard of people saying, oh, you know, alcohol makes me break out or alcohol makes me sleep badly or it makes me get headaches, you know, and I think people can blanket a whole entire, just all alcohol is doing that. But yeah, as Mel was saying, it's what kind of alcohol are you drinking? It's not all bad.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So like, for example, if I were to, depending on the choices I make, if I were to drink certain drinks, I would get all of the symptoms. It would mess up my sleep. I wouldn't feel well.

I'd probably get hangovers. But if I make conscious decisions, I don't get any of that. And I do think it's enhancing my health. So yeah. And then Kelly did have one other question, which was, a friend of ours is claiming that taking red yeast rice has greatly reduced their cholesterol. So I guess she wants to know if red yeast rice can reduce cholesterol.

Barry Conrad
Right. I think that people who have that experience, it's not uncommon or unheard of thing and red yeast does, red yeast rice does contain a compound called monocolons, which they're chemically similar to statins. So it can lower cholesterol in some people.

And is cholesterol elevated because of insulin resistance, inflammation, genetic stress, poor sleep, or is it that? What do you think, Mel? I mean, I don't know if it's just that. It could also be a combination of lifestyle factors. And I think as well, with the rise of the, as you were saying before, the sober movement per se, sometimes people can maybe look for all reasons to say, oh, because of this reason, I should try this then.

Melanie Avalon
So I was actually really interested to look into this because I had not, like I'd heard before that this is great for cholesterol. And I had made the assumption, because I feel like we say that about a lot of different, quote, natural supplements, like, Oh, it's good for this. Oh, it's good for that. And it quite often is.

And at the same time, it may feel that it's a more passive effect. I didn't realize, and you mentioned it, that so red yeast rice, so it's called mono colon K. And it's chemically identical to lobostatin, a prescription statin drug, which was wild to me. I was like, Oh, okay, that's interesting. So I think the, well, let's talk about some of the studies. So, um, let's see, this thing I'm reading says that while it can lower cholesterol, it is not a gentle herb the way people sometimes assume. And then it says it is more accurate to think of it as an unregulated statin. And I think that's the big mind blow moment I had, because I was thinking of think of it like, Oh, you know, this might help your cholesterol. I didn't realize it literally has the compound that is like taking a statin. So they've done multiple randomized trials and meta analysis. They show that it can lower LDL by 15 to 30% with typical total reductions around 35 to 40 milligrams a deciliter compared with placebo. These reductions are similar in size to those seen with low to moderate intensity statin doses. There's been at least one large secondary prevention trial in people with prior heart attacks. And they found that it was associated with fewer cardiac events. And then so basically, okay, last thing. So standardized preparations when they're doing these tests and trials, they use the equivalent of 10 milligrams a day of this monoclon K. The problem that comes in here is a lot of people are, I mean, obviously people are getting this over the counter usually. And if we know one thing that we've talked about on the show for quite a long time, it can be really hard to know that you're getting what you think you're getting when it comes to supplements. So you know, you just don't even really know unless you really, really trust the brand. But to answer your question, Kelly, yeah, I probably did. Assuming that she has a supplement form or brand that actually has enough of the active form of this monoclon K. Yeah, I think it probably did do that.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, which I think is pretty amazing. I do think as well when it comes to things like cholesterol, you know, it's important not to treat it too casually as well without really understanding how it works and even consulting with your doctor and whatnot as well.

Not just relying on that. If you feel like it's reduced your cholesterol as well, it's worth checking out just to get peace of mind.

Melanie Avalon
Definitely. So, okay. Well, do you have a study for us to talk about?

Barry Conrad
I have a study for us and this study is called early time restricted feeding improves insulin sensitivity blood pressure and oxidative stress even without weight loss in men with pre-diabetes. This was actually carried out by researchers at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and published in Cell Metabolism. And it's kind of one of it, it's a bit of a treat for me because I actually, we had the pleasure of interviewing the lead researcher Dr. Courtney Peterson on the show a while back and she was the lead researcher of this study and it stood out because, especially for men, because it looked at intermittent fasting through the lens of metabolic health rather than just weight loss. And so Courtney and the researchers recruited these guys, eight adult men, all with pre-diabetes and these guys were overweight mostly in their fifties, so middle age. And at that stage where blood sugar regulations sort of starts heading in that wrong direction for some people, but before full type 2 diabetes really sets in. So the design was super tight. It was a crossover study, which means like every participant tried both eating patterns and acted as his own control. Also in one phase, for example, the men followed early time restricted eating, they ate all their meals within a six hour window, usually finishing early afternoonish, around two. And in the other phase, they followed a more typical 12 hour eating window spread across the day. And that's important to note because calories were matched as well. So no one was trying to lose weight, the foods stayed the same. The only thing that changed was when they ate. And what happened next is why the study gets talked about is because even without losing weight, even without losing weight, the key phrase there, the men who followed early time restricted eating saw significant improvements in insulin sensitivity. And for listeners who are new to our show, in simple terms, their bodies got better at handling blood sugar. And that's huge for preventing diabetes and protecting like long term metabolic health. And their blood pressure also dropped both at the top and the bottom, which directly ties into that cardiovascular risk as well. So they also measured oxidative stress, which you can how do you explain that sort of what you can think of like an internal wear and tear on our bodies and high oxidative stress is linked to things like aging and chronic disease. So under early time restricted eating, those markers improved too. So again, this all happened without weight loss, which is a huge deal, especially for men who care about health and performance, not just the number on the scale.

But what I also love about the study, Mel, is what what didn't change. So muscle mass was preserved. We love that muscle mass preserved resting metabolism stayed stable. So this wasn't about shrinking the body or burning it out. It was about efficiency and timing and their hunger didn't spiral. Like, in fact, the men reported feeling way less hungry in the evenings once their bodies adapted to that that early eating window. And having spoken to Dr.

Barry Conrad
Courtney, what really stuck with me was how grounded and cautious she is about all this. And she was very clear that that this isn't about extremes or forcing yourself into misery.

And to all this is coming, new listeners come to the show as well, we want to communicate that as well. It's about working with our body's natural rhythms. And the study really supports that beautifully. So how can we relate that back to Ayaf and you guys, especially the dudes tuning in as well. This research shows that fasting isn't just just about weight loss. It's also for metabolic health and you can really improve insulin sensitivity, reduce your internal stress without cutting your calories or losing muscle. That's pretty powerful for all our gents out there who want longevity, resilience and clarity as they age. So, yeah, Mel, what do you think about the study?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this is absolutely amazing. I love it so much because there's always like the ongoing debate about, well, fasting versus calorie restriction and are the benefits from fasting all due to weight loss or are they all due to calorie restriction? And this clearly shows that no, that there is, you know, benefits just from having that shorter eating window. And I like that they're doing like a six hour eating window too, because they do feel like that's shorter than a lot of the windows they'll do in the studies. Like oftentimes they'll do like an eight or an eight hour window or longer. And it's also interesting that the control was 12 hours of a window because some other studies even consider that a, like a fasting window.

You reached out to her, right? Originally?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, what actually happened was I found a study that I was trying to bring to the show and I couldn't find the full text, the full document, and there was an option to reach out to the researcher. And so she was the researcher and I emailed her asking if I could potentially get a copy of that and she said, sure thing, also I'd love to actually come on your show and just talk about intermittent fasting. So that's how it happened.

I wasn't trying to get on the show at all. I just by chance tried to get the full PDF to read about it and then she's like, I'd love to talk about it. And that's how I caught on it. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
It's so funny. I feel like a lot of these researchers like really want to talk about their work, you know, like we could probably just reach out to researchers all day and interview them constantly if we, you know, did that because they probably don't really get a they talk within their, their circles, but unless they're, you know, doing a book or, you know, publicly trying to promote something, I feel like there's not that many opportunities to go and talk about it to, you know, the everyday people like outside of a scholarly setting.

So yeah, no, this is amazing, though.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I was actually just talking about this topic recently with a friend, how oftentimes you're so right about researchers wanting to actually talk about what they do. A lot of times, not always, but sometimes on social media, if somebody does claim to know everything about everything, it's probably a red flag.

A lot of these researchers that do have social media are very specific in what they do share and they're very quick to say that they don't know if they don't know much. That's why I think, yeah, so when they do that opportunity, they're happy to share freely without any sort of catch. Yeah, I just spoke to that point for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and oh, amazing. So maybe we'll start reaching out to more of them.

And I also really love it that she measured. And like you were saying, I can tell by talking to you talking to her that, you know, she's very passionate about this and really cares about testing all the things. So while blood pressure, insulin sensitivity, oxidative stress, bring on the fasting. Of course, you know, the one thing that doesn't work for me from this, right?

Barry Conrad
Say it, Mel. Let us know.

Melanie Avalon
Do you know? But why? But why? Tell us. Early. Yeah. Have dinner done by three o'clock?

Barry Conrad
That's just never going to work in Mel and Evelyn's world, everyone. She is a night owl through and through.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so Courtney, I need you to do this study now and do the window, not even starting at 3am. Yeah, do the window ending at 3am.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
They would do like six to midnight, five to 11, five to 11 p.m. Yeah, I would like I would like to see that.

Barry Conrad
I wonder if Melanie's neighbors, you know, if they wake up in the middle of the night, they can hear like an oven going or an air fry going or something like, like, who's cooking this time of night? It's like Melanie.

Melanie Avalon
I know. I was thinking that last night when I was pounding my steak with a mallet and I was like, hope they can't hear this.

Barry Conrad
I think you're fine. If I don't break, don't fix it, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. So, awesome. Well, awesome find. Thank you.

You're welcome. Okay, shall we? Something we said we were going to do from last time we recorded together. This is how long ago it was. We were going to talk about, we had been talking about these eating tips. So, this was in an article about winter holidays and eating and how much do people actually gain during the holidays. And so, this episode aired quite a while ago. They gave 10 eating tips and we went through the first five and we said if we agreed or not, shall we go through the last five? So, again, for listeners, this was tips and tricks. And we did the first five. So, number six, and again, this was for the winter. This can apply, though, obviously, to any time that you are working on monitoring your food intake. So, they say that winter evenings are often spent in front of the TV watching our favorite movies with the family. Eating while watching TV can lead to increased food intake and a possible explanation lies in the multidimensional nature of distraction. It has been argued that once distracted from internal cues like hunger and satiety, an individual will eat mindlessly and their food intake will not be coded in certain ways which influence their desire to eat. The healthiest way to eat is at the table while enjoying the food. Do you agree?

Barry Conrad
Okay, two things. I do think that eating while watching any kind of movie or anything like that does distract you and you do eat more than what usually would. I definitely do. At the same time, I'm more in tune with my hunk of cues, so I don't indulge as much as I used to. I do love sitting at the table eating dinner, but it's not necessarily the healthiest way.

There's nothing more magical about doing it. You can still control your eating while watching food. So, both things. You can get distracted and eat too much, but you can also take your plate over and eat a healthy, balanced meal. What do you think, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
So do you regularly eat while watching TV?

Barry Conrad
No, I would actually say now, like I like to sit at the table, like love to cook, make it like a moment, but if it's like a weekend or there's a show on or something like that, sit in front of the TV and maybe eat something, but it's pretty rare. I like to eat at the table. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
It's ironic. So I don't have a table, but I have a counter. It's so ironic because I actually agree.

I think if everybody just ate and was not like watching or consuming other content, like electronic type content, that you would be much more in tune with your food signals. Like when you're, when you check out from eating and you're just like consuming other content, like you almost don't even, it's just like a dopamine thing. Like you might not even realize how much you're eating. The irony of it is I always while eating, I don't watch TV, but I read, I research, I read my books, I take notes and I really enjoy it. So like, I know, I don't know. Like for me, I think the happiness that I get from the habit that I have of eating for a long time while reading my books and researching, maybe it's not the most mindful way and maybe I'm eating more, but I really enjoy it. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to keep doing it.

Barry Conrad
I think that's great. Yeah, it works for you.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I guess it can be like a both and like it's not ideal, but it's what I'm doing.

Barry Conrad
Also, I feel like isn't isn't reading or taking notes and stuff. It's a bit more engaging in it and intentional rather than sitting there.

If you if you just sat there with your hand in a bowl of something, you'd probably forget what's in the bowl and you just keep on just eating. Right. That's what a lot of people would do.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, it's probably a good thing that like popcorn is so low calorie because think about how much, well, I guess depending on how much butter you put on it, but think about how much people mindlessly popcorn like at the movie theater, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yep.

Melanie Avalon
So, okay. So their next tip was they say in winter stores tempt us with hundreds of sparkling, colorfully packaged products that reduce prices. That's always the case though.

I don't know why that's specific to winter. So ignore that first sentence. It says, check the fat, sugar, and number of calories on food labels when shopping and preparing food. Imagine how hard it would be to burn calories from a dessert rich in sugar and fat. Okay. So this is a two thing. It's a checking labels and then it's imagining how hard it is to burn it off. I feel like this is... Okay. What do you think?

Barry Conrad
I think, okay, let me zoom out for a second, because Melanie, you already know my stance on holiday time and things like that. I'm a bit more liberal and I'll enjoy it.

That doesn't mean I'm going to go crazy. I'll still look at the label, but I'm more inclined to go, oh, this is something that I look forward to the holidays, so I'm going to grab it and put it in the cart. I'm not just going to go crazy. And also, yeah, sure, it'll be hard to burn the calories, but I work out and train all year round and intermittent fast all year round. So when it comes to the holidays and things like that, the winter, it's totally fine. I don't even think twice about it. You know what I mean? No guilt. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So two, two big thoughts here. One, I think this is the point. So like, I strongly agree with what you said.

And this article is the tip I would put here is intermittent fasting because it takes care of so much of this. Like you don't have to so consciously like think about that because of intermittent fasting and how it handles everything for you in a way by choosing the time window rather than focusing so much on the calories or, or things like that. I used to, I remember I used to do that all the time. I used to like imagine like when I wanted something, I'd like think in my head like, okay, I have to work. I have to like run on the treadmill this amount of time to burn this off. Like I never do that anymore, which I'm really, really grateful for because that was not a fun mind game to play. But here's my thing about the checking the labels. I would suggest buy things that don't have labels. So I mean, like fruits and vegetables don't have fat, sugar and calorie labels usually. I mean, they do if they're like packaged frozen fruit, meat products, like going to the butcher counter and getting chicken, like there's not going to be a label for fat, sugar and calories. So when you're looking at labels, it's more often the packaged foods, which I think that's where a lot of the issues come in.

Barry Conrad
I think that's a really good point and I'll buy things without a label on it. You know, you don't see a stake with a, you know, nutrition table on it or a piece of fruit, vegetables.

Melanie Avalon
Or if you do, like with the steak, it's not usually, because they said fat sugar. I guess it shows like fat, I guess sugar would be zero.

I guess they do have labels sometimes, but my point is like the long labels that in the, in the aisles of the grocery store, if you can avoid them, that will be.

Barry Conrad
It's so much more freeing, just fasting, because it's what we do most of the time. I believe it is what you do most of the time that really matters. You don't have to overthink things here and there.

It's amazing, Mel, how the diet brain, quote unquote, does leave with time because you're doing it consistently. You're intermittent fasting consistently. You don't think about food in the same way.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly, exactly. So, okay, number eight, this is a long one. Okay, so it says, in general, respondents ordered the lowest calorie meals when they were shown the menu with, this is what I was saying, when they were shown the menu with calorie information and the number of miles they would have to walk to burn those calories. Those who were shown the menu with information about calories and the number of minutes of walking to burn those calories also chose lower calorie meals, but not quite as much. Okay, so it's more effective to be told you're gonna have to walk five miles than to be told you're gonna have to walk for 50 minutes, but it still works. Okay, comparisons revealed a difference in the total number of calories ordered from the menu with miles walked compared to the menu without nutritional information. Therefore, choose wisely, read the labels, including when shopping for the holidays.

Let's see, so what is our actual tip here? Because they did like labels before. They say in the holiday season can be stressful because people want the house to be perfectly decorated, the food to be tasty, the gifts to please everyone. This can trigger long-term emotional problems associated with loneliness, anxiety, and depression. In stressful times, such as these, so I guess we can make this applicable to any stressful time, the consumption of comfort foods is very common, high in calories, fat, and sugar. When rats were given highly palatable foods, their stress, oh, okay, so when rats were presented with a choice of highly palatable food, like lard or sugar, stress increased intake. Oh, okay, so more stressed rats eat more highly palatable foods, humans do it too. Okay, so here's the tip. It is important to keep stress levels under control with sports, yoga, meditation, and deep breathing. That's our tip.

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm. Do I agree with that? Sure. Yeah.

I also do think as well an interesting thing about stress is that, and I'm thinking about the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon episode where you talk to her and she said something along the lines of that we have one word for all these things, right? Like stress, like grieving, work stress, health stress, life stress, but some stress is actually good for you. So yeah, it's important to keep stress levels down, but I don't think that you should be afraid to feel some level of challenge or stress and be afraid that that's going to cause you to, you know, be a glutton and overeat. In saying that, I do definitely realize that there are people out there who struggle with that, with emotional eating when they're stressed. I know people like that. So for me personally, I don't agree because it's not something that affects me, but absolutely. I know that that's a real thing for a lot of people. What about you, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
So something I really like about this, about intermittent fasting and how it helps with stress, because I agree completely. And like you said, Barry and like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon talks about like there are different forms of stress. So there's physical stress, there's intense like rumination, worry, anxiety, emotional stress, and not all stress is bad.

And we should be a big takeaway from her book is like, do hard things, like do challenging things every day, and that I think that reframe is really helpful. Something I really like about intermittent fasting and having a set window is in the past, yes, before fasting, if I was stressed, I probably would turn to food to deal with stress. But with fasting, I have my window, and it helps with stress, but it actually gives me it gives me a sense of calm knowing that I have my eating window and that I can eat in the eating window. I don't have to worry about like eating mindlessly to deal with stress at other times, because it's just not even an option on the table, no pun intended, in a way. And I really look forward to like my meal every night, it brings me like I said, a sense of like peace and calm, so it actually helps me with stress. So while food could have helped me with stress in the past by mindlessly eating hyper palatable foods. Now it's like the consistency of the window, the benefits of the fasting also helps me with stress, but without without making me even more stressed and more unhealthy by turning to food as a crutch.

Barry Conrad
It's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
sports would not help me with stress. That would make me more stressed.

Yoga, yoga and meditation meditation. I still I know some people I mean, I did try a practice. It's just not my like, I'm not a daily meditator. Do you meditate?

Barry Conrad
I want to say that I do more active meditation, meaning my way of doing it is I like to go on a long walk and just think and take in the environment around me, and that's my way of meditating. It's not I'm not sitting down necessarily and speaking anything out or whatnot, but I think you can do active meditations.

That's sort of my way of doing it. Being in nature, going for a long walk and being free from distractions.

Melanie Avalon
I like that. Yeah, I feel like you have to find what works for you for dealing with stress. There's so many options out there and different things work for different people. So find what works for you.

Barry Conrad
and working out, of course, in the gym.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, two more. So number nine, a lack of sleep leads to metabolic and hormonal balances such as decreased glucose tolerance, decreased insulin sensitivity, increased cortisol, increased ghrelin, which is the hunger hormone, decreased leptin, which is the fullness hormone, increased hunger and appetite. So even if you're busy, sleep as much as your body needs.

A 2011 study found that, let's see, sleep and obesity, there's association between sleep and obesity in both adults and children. Most of them showed a significant association between short sleep, which was considered less than six hours per night, and increased risk of obesity. A meta-analysis of 18 studies of 604,509 adults showed a pooled obesity odds ratio of 1.9 to 0.55 for less than five hours of sleep, and a dose effect of sleep duration. So each additional hour of sleep BMI decreased by 0.35 kilograms. Oh, that's interesting. So they actually don't express the tip, but I'm assuming the tip is... Oh, they did. They said, get your sleep, I guess. Yeah, sleep as much as your body needs. You don't have to convince me of that one. I'm all on board with that one.

Barry Conrad
Me too. And especially lately, Mel, like when I did Dry January, part of January as well was having a set winding down time. And that really, really, really, really, really helped me so much.

And that meant like no phone in the room, you know, after that, from that one down point, just read, you know, until I actually get tired and that man, like you wind down so much faster when you're not distracted by blue light and your phone and all these different things. And you sleep so much better. And I've just had the best sleep ever this month.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I'm having flashbacks of childhood when I used to like read in bed, but the problem with me for that was I would read like all night.

I was a reader. I was, I was a reader. Were you a reader?

Barry Conrad
Maybe not all night, but yeah, I can I can see that happening. What would you what was like your childhood favorite books?

Melanie Avalon
I would literally, so we would go to Sanibel Island in the summer for like six weeks, and they had this incredible library, and I'm trying to think how I would do this. I would go like once a week and get the max number of books on the library card, which I think was like 15 books or so, and I would just like read all of them, and then like go back the next week and like read more.

And it did... Have I told you this before? I'm convinced that it like permanently messed up my spelling, because I have a tendency to spell things the British way.

Barry Conrad
Really? You haven't told me this.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, because I would read all of the Jane Austen and all of these British novels, like all the classics. So there are so many words that I spell the British way.

Barry Conrad
That's so interesting. Now that I know that I'll probably see it more like, yeah, well still now.

Melanie Avalon
Now I can never remember how it's spelled. I'll never know if it's an OU or just an O, because it's usually an OU in the British form.

I'm trying to think of one. I'll think of one. It'll come to me randomly.

Barry Conrad
I know, like favourite, you know, F-A-V-O-R-I-T-E or F-A-V-O-U-R-I-T-E.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's a good one. And wait, so the English is F-A-V-O-R-I-T-E?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, we say that in Australia as well.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I loved reading. Okay, last one, number 10. To make everything simpler, look for a friend to team up with to be motivated and accountable. How do you feel about accountability partners?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think that's a great, I think that's a great tip and that can apply to so many areas of like life where it's working out or studying or going through emotional hard times. Teaming up with a buddy, you're always better with somebody else by your side to help you along and to spray you on and to, you know, cheer you up.

It's great.

Melanie Avalon
100%. It's probably more effective for people who are, is it Gretchen Rubin, the whole upholder? Do you fulfill inner or outer expectations? I bet people who fulfill outer expectations, that's more effective for them.

Some people might not need accountability partners if they only care about inner expectations, but I think in general, most people can benefit from that.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. Well, shall we break our proverbial fast?

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, I'm so looking forward to this. Yes, we should.

Melanie Avalon
So I found this restaurant a while ago and I've been saving it. I've been saving it.

Barry Conrad
Can you give me a clue of what is it something that we've had in the past was it something new?

Melanie Avalon
I don't think there's any way you're gonna guess.

Barry Conrad
I know. I love surprises.

Melanie Avalon
Well, so it's my friend, so Dr. Caroline Leaf, who I've had on the show multiple times, her daughter Dominique, I'm really good friends with her, and Dominique travels like all over the world all the time. It's inspiring, honestly.

And she was going to Buenos Aires, I can't say it, on her way to Antarctica. I think that's where, I think it was like the stop where the ship left for Antarctica. And so she was really excited because they have their, apparently, one of the best steakhouses in the entire world.

Barry Conrad
What? That's not what I would have thought of Antarctica.

Melanie Avalon
It's not in Antarctica. It's in Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Barry Conrad
Buenos Aires. Yeah, also I've been there and that's an amazing place. Oh, you have? Yeah, I sang there. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Have we been to a steakhouse there?

Barry Conrad
I have, but I don't know if it's going to be the one that send me the link and I'll have a look. You want to tell me what it is?

Melanie Avalon
So I'll tell you why it's special, let's see, hold on. And she sent me pictures from when she went and it was literally like a steak tasting, like they had all these different steaks.

Barry Conrad
Sounds like my idea of heaven, you know I love steak as much as you do.

Melanie Avalon
I know. So it's a world-renowned top tier steakhouse, often ranked among the best. It has a Michelin star. It's famous for high-quality grass-fed beef, expert grilling, sustainable practices, an extensive wine cellar with a premium cozy dining experience.

So here it is. It's called Don Julio, which sounds like alcohol. Isn't that the name of an alcohol?

Barry Conrad
That is really funny.

Melanie Avalon
And I actually haven't looked at the menu yet, so we're going to do this together in real time.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Ready? I haven't been to, I can confirm, I haven't been to this restaurant, but the meat there is so good. Seriously. It was amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, in Argentina.

Barry Conrad
Yep. And in Brazil as well. Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, just all so good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay friends, so they don't really have a menu online, but we are looking at pictures that somebody took who went in, so I think we have the whole menu-ish, kind of.

Barry Conrad
So I would get from the status, do you mean the, the, up the top there, the eperturf?

Melanie Avalon
That's a those are drinks.

Barry Conrad
Okay, but will we have a drink first? Do you want to have some food first?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, if you want one of those, I don't have wine, but.

Barry Conrad
From the starters, I would probably get the empanadas because I do love empanadas so much. And I'll probably get both the beef and the sweet corn.

So I'm not, it's carne and then humita. So I'll probably get both of those because I love empanadas, they're really good.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, they have empanadas, grilled cheeses, homemade sausages, and awful, awful dishes, which I think I might, I don't know, actually maybe not, I don't know if I'm brave enough to try the, do you like, is it awful, is that how you say it? Like kidneys, cheddar lorins, sweet breads.

Barry Conrad
I would definitely also get, yes, because I've had like chicken hearts and all those kinds of things. I've had all that kind of stuff.

I would absolutely be game to try those. Would you try some with me if I got the email?

Melanie Avalon
So okay, tell okay, tell me what the chitterlings that's like intestines, right?

Barry Conrad
I believe so. I don't know what sweet breads are though.

Melanie Avalon
Chitterlings are cleaned and cooked small intestines, and then sweet bread is the thymus and pancreas glands. Okay, so they got those, and they got kidneys, and they got a selection of everything.

What's funny is I love... I'm very carnivorous. Well, I guess I haven't had them, so maybe I like them. I would taste it, yes.

Barry Conrad
Cause I can't imagine it would be prepared in a really crazy way. I think it would be, cause they want to preserve the taste, you know? So I think it'd be pretty good actually.

Melanie Avalon
It's also very expensive to not like it. These prices are insane. OK, so we'll survive the appetizers. Are you going to get one of those drinks at the top?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think I'm going to do Americano, which is Campari, Sensano, Agua, Congas, Hilo, Rodgias, Darnanja, basically sparkling wine, ice, orange slices, Campari, Sensano. It sounds like a headache waiting to happen, but I'm all for trying it because it's the drink of the place.

I will try it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and then we also have salads. Do you want a salad?

Barry Conrad
I could probably pass. When in Argentina, when in Buenos Aires, you want to just get into that meat.

Melanie Avalon
go all out. So looking at the actual menu of the grilled meats, they have so many. So they have beef cuts, lean cuts, bone-in cuts, pork, and chicken. Oh, and grilled prawns represent at the bottom!

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm. What's catching your eye, Mel? So much to choose from.

Melanie Avalon
I would probably have a, one of the lean cuts probably. I don't, I need to know more. Like this would just be like a big education piece for me.

Like learning about the different types. So probably one of the, one of the tenderloins. I would like to try, I wish they had like a sampler platter of like different ones. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I would do the lean tenderloin steak, and then I'd also do the short ribs, and because I do love pork, so I would do the pork loin, I'm just going to go for it, and then half a free range chicken is not that big, so I get that as well. And some prawns, that'll be my salad.

It's a very expensive meal.

Melanie Avalon
It is. I would have to look, yeah, so basically for listeners, they have all these different cuts. They have rum steak, tenderloin, brochette, which apparently is skewered form. They have thin sirloin, thick sirloin, ribeye. I would just, I would talk to the waiter and ask, yeah, like what are their favorites? Yeah, but probably the tenderloin.

And I also love pork, so I'd have some of that and, yeah, and prawns. How would you get it cooked?

Barry Conrad
Medium rare. Love medium rare.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I want it as blue as they will give it to me.

Barry Conrad
You're going to say that.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I think we, oh, do you want any of the sides?

Barry Conrad
Let's have a look here.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I actually might get a side here. This might be like the first time I like want a side.

Barry Conrad
I think, are you going to get the eggplant? No. Are you going to get grilled vegetables? No. For your own eggs?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Or the scrambled eggs. I might ask if they can give me like scrambled eggs with the zucchini and cream cheese on the side. But eggs, I love eggs. I love that it's like a side dish option.

Barry Conrad
I think, is that the first time you've ordered, well, that there's kind of an eggs in a menu and B, that you've, I've heard you actually talk about ordering eggs?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I feel like it's not normally, because we're not normally looking at breakfast menus. It's not normally a thing.

Okay, I don't know if we would be able to find the wine menu. That was really difficult to find, to find this menu. But I would also get some, hopefully some organic dry wine, hopefully.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'm sure that they would have a good selection in Argentina.

Melanie Avalon
Hokey dokey, now I'm hungry. Well, this was absolutely wonderful.

Listeners, friends, please submit your own questions for the show. We would love to hear from you. You can directly email questions at ifodcast.com or you can go to ifodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 465. They will have links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifodcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. Wait, right? Yes, it's been a while. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
Thank you so much for tuning in again everyone. You're awesome and we'll catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
Talk to you next week. Bye.

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. you

Welcome to Special Guest Episode 448 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

Jay Campbell is a 5x international best selling author, men’s physique champion, founder of the Jay Campbell Brand/Podcast and Co-Founder of BioLongevity Labs.

Recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on hormonal optimization and therapeutic peptides, Jay has dedicated his life to teaching Men and Women how to #FullyOptimize their health while also instilling the importance of Raising their Consciousness.

Jay’s website JayCampbell.com (where he’s been writing online since 2006) offers some of the most deeply researched articles on the topics of hormone optimization, peptides, fat loss, fitness, and spirituality.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 448 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 448 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with such a special guest. Friends, prepare to have your minds completely blown. The backstory on today's conversation is last year, by the time this came out, I met in person an incredible human being, Jay Campbell, at the Biohacker Self-Premier in Vegas. I was actually hosting on the red carpet there, and he was one of the guests on my carpet, which was so incredible. And I was actually already familiar with his work because he is a legend in the world of a few topics, peptides in particular, as well as helping people really get shredded, really just optimize their body composition, burn fat, gain muscle, all the things. He is beyond incredible. So I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast for a deep, deep dive into peptides. We just went all out on everything peptides, which I'm sure we will touch on today, but just in case, listen to that episode as well, because it's like the Bible episode now for me that I will refer people to for peptides. In any case, we had that show, and immediately after, I just knew he had to come on this show because you guys are going to love the topics that we talk about. Since then, he has so many books. I read his book, 30 Days to Shreds, which is a really intense protocol, which we're going to talk about, where it outlies based on where you're at, whether you are a beginner, an advanced, or what we will talk about, an FFO approach to radically losing weight, maintaining even potentially gaining muscle, all the things, the supplements to use, the dietary protocol to follow, all of that. And of course, he talks a lot about fasting, and that is just one of his books. He has so many books, and he has just so much knowledge in general. So I'm really excited about this conversation that we're about to have. Jay, thank you so much for everything that you do, and thank you for being here.

Jay Campbell
Melanie, thank you. And that was a very humbling, awesome introduction. I'm grateful to be here as always.

And like I said, you're like one of the best, if not the best podcast interviewer that I've ever worked with. And that's saying a lot because I've been on a lot of podcasts. So I'm very excited today to be in your studio talking to you and having this awesome conversation.

Melanie Avalon
You are simply the kindest and my compliment to echo back this, and I mean this in the nicest way, and you actually on the last conversation, you called me a fellow Jim bro, which I took. So that was like the best moment ever.

You know, you were in that world of quote, like Jim bros, and you are the most, okay, all of the potentially problematic stereotypes that exist there. You are not those, if you know what I mean.

Jay Campbell
I received that and reflect that back, yes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you're so so intelligent. Not I'm not saying I'm not trying to make like negative, you know, stigmas about other people, but you are so intelligent, so nuanced, and really have the information people need to know to, you know, look like the Jim bros.

So I actually have an elephant in the room question about that. But before that, for people who are not familiar with your work, could you tell them a little bit about your personal story? You know, what led you to what you're doing today? That's a big question.

Jay Campbell
And thank you again for that. I'm grateful to be here.

I'm always humbled and privileged and honored whenever I get a chance to talk to a fellow Jim, bro, who really knows their, their way around the space, which clearly you do. So just like a hundred thousand some foot version of my life, ex college athlete, played basketball. was the oldest of nine children, always had this incredible voracious appetite of understanding the human physique, of understanding the human body, why the body performed in the way that it did. And later in my 20s, like I kicked in the testicles playing in adult men's basketball league. At the time I knew none of this, but obviously I learned this later. It shut me down from a hypogonado axis standpoint and I ended up being testosterone deficient in what is called class two hypogonadism, which is essentially an environmental loss or suppression of testosterone. And this was in 1999, Melanie, and fast forward to now and you look around and you notice and understand how prevalent like hormonal deficiencies are in just the overall general populace. I kind of think it was a synchronicity in my life at that time, because I was one month from turning 30 when this happened. And then I became cognizant of the wonderful world of therapeutic hormones. To make a long story short, I basically went to a doctor about seven or eight weeks after getting kicked because I started feeling run down and my body was destroyed. And the doctor that I went to was just a garden variety, PPO, you know, primary care physician. And he recommended me to an endocrinologist. And of course the endocrinologist happened to be a Harvard educated guy. And he put me on therapeutic testosterone and then told me that, you know, eight weeks later he could take me off. But after being on for eight weeks, it was like a transformational change to my body, my mind, everything. And I told him, I said, there's no way you're taking me off this. This is life changing. And from that moment forward, I became this voracious student of biohacking, you know, underground drug and peptide. And, you know, if you want to call them steroids, testosterone, whatever, I just became this like meticulous student of experimenting on myself, you know, being in bodybuilding and various underground anonymous news forums and stuff. Because again, back then in the infancy of the internet, everybody had an anonymous handle, nobody used their real name. So in that time, you know, and let's just call this from like 1999 to 2010, 2011, I was using peptides, I was using testosterone, I was using, you know, micro dosages of steroids, micro dosages of growth hormone, micro doses of everything. So I self hacked myself and that's the best way to say it, or self biohacked myself by experimenting on myself.

And then eventually the smart people in my network said, dude, you got to write books about this because you know so much about this.

Jay Campbell
And at the time, you know, I was just a guy that was in, I worked in digital marketing and advertising, both in the real estate and the automotive space. And I wasn't, you know, whoever the hell I am now today, which is I guess a biohacker slash influencer.

But I learned all this stuff, you know, from a cutting edge standpoint and cut my teeth and all this stuff. And then I started writing books and my first book came out in 2015, it was called the definitive TRT manual. And it became the number one selling book on men's health for Amazon for like, I want to say six months in 2016. And then from there, I wrote four more books, actually seven more books, but four of the next seven, all were international bestsellers. Like you said, there were two books on fasting, the metabolic blowtorch diet, 30 days to shreds, but the testosterone optimization therapy Bible, which is still the number one selling book of all time on therapeutic hormones and really is a Bible. It's 700 pages. There's just so much information in there. I mean, most of the people in the biohacking space, that's kind of where they know me from that book, you know, the Ben Greenfield's, the Dave Asprey's of the world. And then I wrote my book on peptides in 2023 and it came out, you know, again, no coincidence. It's only synchronicities right at the like peak of the vaccine injury part of the world. And so like when the book came out, all these people were looking for alternative forms of healing. And my book just literally happened to come out on Amazon on January 30th, 2023.

And that book, when it came out, it's called Optimize Your Health with Therapeutic Peptides. It was the second book on peptides because the only other book on peptides that was on Amazon was Dr. Seed's book. And, you know, my book has blown by his book from a sales standpoint. And again, it's because it's more relatable, it's more lay, you know, garden variety people who are non-climations can read it and can understand it. But obviously subsequently since then, a lot of people have written books on peptides and truthfully, I'm actually blown away at how quality some of them are. There's some really bad ones, but there's some really good ones. And so my newest book is Coming, which is not out yet, which is actually a book on GLP peptides or how to use GLP peptides. And it's absolutely phenomenal. And I don't know when it's coming out because I'm so busy with scaling my company and doing all these things I'm doing right now.

But my hope is that it'll be in people's hands by, you know, right before Black Friday or sometime like in November. Might even come out the weekend that I'm speaking at Hack Your Health. But that book is really, really good. And my copywriting team has spent a lot of time and editing it and cutting it and doing stuff to make it relatable to the general public. Because I think you know right now that most people will not read anything.

Jay Campbell
They want short 10 second video blurbs. So you got to really make it, you know, to the point, concise, short-handed, how can people use a GLP productively and not go so far deep into the weeds that people will be lost in the science, but at the same time have enough that the clinical people will find value in it.

So it's not an easy job or production today to write a book and to serve both the scientific community and the lay community.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. So many things. So many questions for you there.

And yeah, so for listeners, the peptide book is the one that I read before the interview for the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, which truly was a paradigm shift and which I was actually, I was embarrassed that I hadn't really dived into the peptide world yet. I don't know why I hadn't that much. It has completely opened my eyes. Quick question. Just going off of what you just said with writing a new book and everything with the, I used to say the admin, but I guess with, with the role of AI now, do you find with AI, cause I use it a lot for, well, helping with writing, answering questions, things like that. Do you agree with its perspective on these different topics or does it kind of censor itself, go conventional? I'm just curious about AI.

Jay Campbell
So you're going to be blown away at this and this could be generational. I refuse to use AI.

You don't use it at all Will not absolutely will not I have looked at what people have sent me because again My name is so ubiquitous in peptides and hormones And so I would say 70% of the information that grok uses on about peptides is my information So like I can see where it's wrong and no instantly Right. So you've got you. Here's the problem. You've got a lot of crowd-sourced information Well, look the easiest way to talk about AI and not insult it is garbage in garbage out The signal to noise ratio on the internet now is 95% noise and 5% signal So you can't expect grok or chat GP 3 3 or 4 whatever levels it is or any of the AI processors or computers to truly give you quality information because all it's doing is searching crap and Then mimicking what it finds. That's the crap and the problem with it is that it's so Regurgitates, you know mainstream Calm elite whatever you want to whatever the people or beings that control this realm of existence Like they've got like pattern recognition And so the pattern recognition is always going to default to like the stereotypical stuff And so you're not gonna always get the truth I mean if you really understand how to coach grok you can probably get 95% accuracy, but most people don't So I stay away from it and no I do not use AI to respond to questions or anything like that because it actually drives Me crazy. I know that there's probably some Utilitarian use for it, but I'm just maybe old-school, you know, I mean again, I'm 54 years old. I mean, I'll be 55 in February So it's like I kind of just avoid it But I'm sure there's a lot of ways that I could use it that would really help me like we're doing a documentary On peptides right now and I know the crew they're all like late 30s, you know Early 40s guys that are involved in the production in the direction and they're all like using AI for everything so it's like I understand that it might be a little generational but I Definitely know that you have to be very careful because a lot of the information that it pulls is it is absolutely not true

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that all completely makes sense. Yeah, I use it.

It's funny, I was just doing hiring for my company. And so I was trying to go through like proposals. And one of the filters I use to immediately just like x people off was if I could tell that they used AI for their answers. If I saw long dashes, I was like, nope.

Jay Campbell
No, that's what I mean. Honestly, that's what I would do too.

And it's it's funny you say that because we have so many people that pitch us for my companies to for writing and building funnels and stuff. And that's the first question I say, you know, I literally will respond and say, if you can answer this question, in the next 20 minutes and not use AI, I'll consider having a call with you. That's literally what I say to them. And I would not I'm not joking when I tell you this, that eliminates 95% to 98% of the

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I get concerned, but then I'm like, well, at least I guess people can keep using AI to do all the things, but can they actually like show up in real life? You know? So I don't know.

It's an interesting world to be in. I'll use it. So for emails, I have one trained because I'm an erotic about typos. So I have one called emails and it knows literally just fixed grammar, do not add things, do not use long dashes. And so I'll use that to like really optimize writing emails.

Jay Campbell
I wish I had somebody that could be my assistant, like that's really what I need because I'm such a quantum person. It's so hard, like I've gone through so many people and by the way, I'm like the easiest boss ever because I'm like, I give you full autonomy but I also give you enough rope to hang yourself.

So it's like, I feel like if I could get an AI assistant that could actually go through my emails and delete everything that's non-essential, I would be, it would be the greatest achievement of my life because I cannot, I mean, I'm sure you're the same way. I mean, like I'm a very organized person but I literally cannot see all my emails anymore. And I do have two people that do my calendar and I have a girl that does my live stream stuff but like I can't hire an assistant to go through my emails because the level of like quantum information, they can't process it. You know what I mean? Like I know that sounds egoic but like I've gone through so many people, it's like it's a waste of attempting. And then as you know, you gotta train people. You know, so it's like, you gotta also deal with that. But so I wish I could find an AI that can literally just literally delete all non-essential emails, filter the ones that have to be read like on an every other day or maybe even a daily basis. If somebody could develop something like that, that's when I would say AI would be useful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, I will keep my eyes peeled. If I see it, you'll be texting you. Okay.

So elephant in the room question. We were mentioning like this gym bro world, this world of, you know, becoming shredded, optimizing weight loss, all the things. And something I have found really fascinating throughout the years is on the one hand, we have this culture where like crash dieting is seen as a really horrible thing. And you shouldn't be taking, you know, that like weight loss pills don't work, diet pills don't work. You shouldn't try to lose weight fast. You know, you should go low and slow, lose a little bit a week. Like that's what we're taught as and it has like a like a moral halo to it in a way. Like that's what we should be doing. And we should not be doing these other things. And what I've always been fascinated by and, you know, hearing your background and like we've talked about is I was always in the rabbit hole weeds of the forums and like there are things that do work, you know, and seem like they do help. So what do you say to people who want to lose weight? Oh, A, want to burn fat. B, want to do it fast. Is it possible that that actually could be like a better approach than losing it slow? How do you just handle this elephant in the room of conventional society and the stigma against fast weight loss, diet pills, all the things?

Jay Campbell
It's an amazing question and I would have answered it totally differently 10 years ago than I average it now and I will tell you this. I'm so glad you asked me this question because when this podcast is over, I am writing an email that will go out either tonight or tomorrow that literally says Jay Campbell's ultimate shred protocol for 2025 and this is how relevant your question is to this.

My shred protocol has changed in three months from where it was in April and it's already I would say three to five X better than it was in April and my shred protocols are the best red protocols in the world and the reason that I say that I'm not bragging is because I have this incredibly advanced knowledge of peptides by regulators and small molecules. So think of every tip of the spear bleeding edge product that is out there or available or in the underground community and I'm either using it or no of it, right? So it's like 10 years ago. I would have said fat loss is, you know, methodical slow to do it, right? You know, you have to sacrifice. You have to pretty much starve yourself. You have to become comfortable with being hungry, you know, there's a lot of things that you have to do will power intestinal fortitude. But Melanie, those days are gone. We now live in a world where there are chemical agents at people's disposal that can enhance metabolic rate, can increase glucogen production, can dramatically upregulate thyroid, can dramatically upregulate mitochondrial firepower and density. I mean, there are so many insane metabolic cascades that can be induced from chemicals, peptides, bioregulators, small molecules, GLP peptides, I mean, you name it, that I would be ridiculous and lying if I told somebody they could not literally lose 20% body fat in under 30 days because it's totally possible.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And 10 years ago when you thought low and slow was the way to go, this was while you were still experimenting with different compounds though, right? Oh, a hundred percent.

Jay Campbell
Yeah, I mean, again, and I say this all the time, so this isn't the first time I said this on this podcast, but within 24 months, the world of bodybuilding, performance enhancement, fitness modeling, bikini competitions, you know, whatever you want to call for people that have to get into single digit body fat will be completely transformed. Like the professional bodybuilding world will have people that will be standing on stage 350 pounds with 5% body fat. Like that's literally where we're going because these chemical agents are so transformative and so life altering. And I would also be lying if I told you that they were risky because they're really not.

I mean, you know, you and I on the last podcast, we talked about a little bit about GLPs and I tell people that GLPs actually improve biomarkers. They're enhancing longevity. So you know, the only question is, you know, again, I think you and I talked about this on the last call is, do we as a society blow ourselves up before we get to this level of you call it pharmaceutical enhancement or biomedical or bio biochemical enhancement? I don't know. I think it's coin flip, but I definitely know that the meds and the chemicals that are out there are so mind blowing. I mean, I had a call this morning with a biochemist in China. There is already an injectable peptide. It's not available in the mainstream, but it will be available soon that you can inject into stubborn fat and it literally through apoptosis liquefies the fat and is gone in two days. And it's perfectly healthy. You pee it out or you defecate it out, you know, the dead cells. There's no necrosis. There's no ulcers or sores or anything from the site injection. It literally is like taking an injection of an insulin needle and liquefying stubborn fat. That's not a lie. So that's where we are. And that's why I'm saying that within two years, it will be it'll be it'll be so revolutionary that I can't even in my brain power and my knowledge of all this stuff even comprehend where it will be because it'll be so far ahead of where we are. And that's why I'm saying that literally we are now in a world where every three months is like a 10 year quantum leap.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I have so many questions for you. I love this conversation so much.

It's so interesting because I just remember back in the day when I first started exploring all of this and I would think about it like scientifically. I was like, it makes sense that if we have fat cells that have signaling mechanisms that tell them to do things like release their fat or not, it just makes sense that there would be certain compounds that would help with that. This was me, I guess, feeling weird about wanting to be holistic and go low and slow, but then be like, it just makes sense that there would be things that would do things logically. So actually, quick question for you, and this is crazy timing. That was a moment when you were saying that you'd be lying if you said they were risky. I was like, does he mean not risky? But no, then you followed it up to say that they're relatively safe. Actually, last night, I was actually getting my hair done and the woman getting her hair done next to me was saying, and again, this is like an end of one example, but I think it might speak to a potential larger issue at play. In her business, this is wild, she had two people in her business, both ordered GLP ones from a pharmacy offshore and took high doses. This is really tragic. They actually both got really, really sick.

The first girl got really, really sick, went to the hospital stirring up for days and died, and now the second girl is in the hospital with a similar situation. I'm not saying it was from that. I'm just asking and wondering because especially in her books, and you mentioned this when you were doing your intro about different compounds that people might acquire and bringing in what you were saying about the garbage and garbage out, what is the role of acquiring these different compounds, safety, knowing you're getting what you're getting, dosage? What do we need to know about that?

Jay Campbell
Yeah, it's a great question. And I'm glad you asked this question because for 95% of people, they don't know what they're doing.

And that's what that woman dying is. I mean, that's not atypical, but that's getting sick, destroying receptor sensitivity, regaining the weight, damaging the thyroid, getting wagobi face, wagobi neck, wagobi chin, wagobi ass, all those things are very real, happening, side effects, byproducts, whatever you want to call it, of uneducated use. And we are now in a market, remember what I told you about the signal to noise ratio. The noise is so far drowning out the signal that the average person who attempts to use a peptide like a GLP1 has no earthly idea what they're doing when they take it, none. And unfortunately, our medical establishment, I mean, you know, I'm a very anti-allopathic doctor, I mean, allopathic medicine slash illness medicine proponent, but it has failed miserably, and it is now collapsing in on itself. And so anyone who gets their knowledge from their, quote unquote, garden variety, PCP, family doctor, HMO doctor, whatever you want to call it, and obviously also, you know, precurs prescriptions for what GLPs is headed down a very dark path. They will end in tragic failure. And again, loss of life is, you know, rare occurrence for this, but loss of metabolism, loss of livelihood, loss of muscle, those are all very realistic possibilities and actual probabilities.

So to your question, If you're using these, you better be listening to the right people. You better be understanding that, and again, this is just a garden rule that no one should cross anymore. If you're going to use a GLP1 peptide and you're not going to microdose, it is going to end in colossal failure. And what I mean by that is that the pharmaceutical industry teaches people when they buy GLP peptides to start high and go higher with dosage. And the Jake Hambles of the world, and there are thankfully other people as smart as me teaching people about this, we teach people to start low and go slow. So you've got a massive dichotomy on how you do this. If you start low and go slow, you will not have major side effects. I will say you will probably have no side effects if you truly do understand the lifestyle that comes along with doing this right.

And again, we talked about this on the last podcast, but the lifestyle of using a GLP1 peptide is very simple. There's 10 commandments, but I'll give you three. And number one is, are you living an insulin controlled lifestyle when you're using a GLP? Because if you're not living an insulin controlled lifestyle when you're using a GLP, you don't have the foundations set up correctly. The second one is, are you eating enough protein to avoid muscle loss and catabolism? And enough protein is defined as, are you eating enough grams of protein for your goal body weight? Because a 400 pound man or a 300 pound woman cannot eat that much protein. They have to eat the amount of protein that is their goal body weight.

Jay Campbell
It's actual skeletal muscle weight, but 99% of people can't figure that out. So you just say, what is your goal body weight, right? You're a five, five woman, and you weigh 180. You probably should be 130, right?

You're a six foot guy and you weigh 290. You probably should be 100, 195 to 200 pounds. So it's like, that's the amount of protein you would eat. And then the third rule and third rule might be number one is, are you hormonally optimized? Because if you're not hormonally optimized and you use a GLP drug, which is again, a highly effective drug, and let's talk about defining them just really quick. There's GLP1s, GLP2s, GLP3s. GLP1 is appetite suppression. GLP2 is appetite suppression and glucogen stimulation, which is metabolic rate enhancing. And then GLP3 is all those two things plus the increase in brown adipose tissue, which is again, increasing resting thermogenesis. So you've got like three, two levels of enhanced metabolic rate plus appetite suppression. So if you're, if you're using any of those drugs and you're not hormonally optimized, you're putting yourself behind the eight ball to see muscle loss.

So again, if you're on a man or a woman and you're on therapeutic hormones, whether you're 35 or 65, the likelihood that you're going to lose muscle is very minimal. Okay. So those are the three kinds of ground rules. There's other things that we could throw in there, but I don't want to bring those up for the purposes of this, but obviously anyone who really wants to understand how to do this, I have a course that's like, you know, I give it away for $149. It's called the GLP1 masterclass. And I go over all those things and I go over the 10 commandments and all the different things, but it's very, very simple to avoid the catastrophic things that you talked about in the question that those two women, you know, brought up to you.

And again, average people who go to the doctor and get a GLP scripted are going to end in that, that unfortunate tragic, not death because that's an outlier, but usually you're going to end in muscle loss, thyroid damage, metabolic problems, regaining of weight, you know, adding 25 pounds past the GLP once it fails and just very simply to define for people. And I know you have a super educated listening audience, so I don't have to go that deep, but when a GLP fails, it's because you took the dose from too high to too higher and you eventually either run out of money or you hitch a receptor sensitivity and you desensitize the receptor. So it stops working. And then once it stops working, you've got metabolic hell to pay, right? You've got thyroid damage. Most people are not eating enough protein. They're not lifting weights. They're not doing, you know, resistance training and cardiovascular training. So then once they stop taking the GLP and their appetite comes back, they don't have a metabolism to handle their, you know, their voracious or ravenous appetite. And so they eat way beyond their means and their thyroid is slow.

Jay Campbell
Metabolism is slow. And so they, they regain 20 to 30 pounds.

This is very common, Melanie, very common for people that use GLPs. Now let's not forget that they also have muscle wasting and that's the GLP phase or the wagobi phase or the wagobi neck or the wagobi chin or the wagobi butt or all of these things that you hear about. And they're all very, very true and real side effects, but they're all easily avoided if you know what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon
First of all, thank you so much for all of that. And yeah, I opened with a really intense, you know, version like death. But the, the thing I hear the most is definitely the muscle loss.

And I remember when they first started coming out and people were talking about them all the time and they were saying, yes, they make you lose weight. And everybody, it made it seem like everybody is losing muscle. And I, during that whole conversation, I was thinking, well, you know, are the people eating protein? Like, are they supporting their muscle or are they just losing a lot of weight? And so they're losing muscle along with it.

Jay Campbell
No one loses muscle if you do this right. I mean, I am living proof of this. I've been using GLPs for four years. The GLP4, which is CAS 931, which is actually called bio-lipoetics or something like that, is coming. It's within, I don't know, we're estimating somewhere between three to six months being released. The manufacturers of the drug are hiding the CAS number so the research community can't get it and manufacture it, you know, and bootleg it like they do with everything else, which is actually a big joke, but there's no muscle loss.

And that's why I was telling you that like these drugs are so powerful in their nutrient partitioning, in their improving insulin sensitivity, enhancing again metabolic rate, that for people that are using, you know, testosterone, growth hormone, growth hormone, agonist, peptides, you know, recombinant, follow statin, you know, all these very advanced molecular drugs and biochemical wonder products are only going to like the biggest bodybuilders in the world now like that competed the Olympia, you know, are probably 260 to 275 shredded on stage. You're looking at 75 to 100 pounds heavier within the next two years and leaner because of the drugs. Yeah, that's where we're going. Incredible. Which proves there's no muscle loss, by the way. You just have to do it right. And again, the average person is not doing it right. Is it their fault or their doctor's fault? I would say it's a combination, but it's most of the it's mostly the doctor's fault because they're the ones prescribing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, okay. And I just love that you're, you know, illuminating these concerns and fears and, you know, explaining what's actually going on there.

I had made a note from your Your 30 Days to Shreds book, because there were a few different, few different things of these that you mentioned, like you were saying, and I think we might have touched on all of them right now, but you were saying, for example, that like metabolic damage is not going to happen, even though this seems like a very extreme protocol, because you're doing it right. And then you talk about you had a whole section, which I loved on the problem with studies showing muscle loss with fasting, for example, and, you know, why that's also not a concern when it's done correctly. I have a really random nuanced, or like a rabbit hole question, but you say a lot throughout your work, and we talked about it, how important being lean is for longevity and health. And you also say how important having muscle is for health and longevity. And this is a false dichotomy, because we're not going to aim for this. So nobody wants to do this. I just think these sort of questions kind of can provide interesting information. So if a person had to choose between being super lean versus being super muscled, but not lean is one of those preferences.

Jay Campbell
So that's not possible so so that's the so the confusion is what people think so if you're super lean you're super muscular You understand you can't be one or you can't be one without the other So like if you are like say single-digit body fat as a man and you're let's say 12 or 13 percent body fat as a woman That means that the rest of your body is bone and muscle so you can't be You know, but but to your question because it's a good one because again, let's think of it visually most people When they think super lean they think skinny with a six-pack and then they think muscular The big bulky bodybuilder look right where it's the same thing It's just the big bodybuilder has more muscle fiber typing, you know Our cross-sectional muscle fibers due to their training than the person that's super lean But that but the amount of muscle like per pound or you know Square inch of real estate on the bodies are the same and it's also the Versus the same I get in these conversations with people all the time and they're really confused about this I'm not saying you are of course, but most people are like you can be extremely skinny and obese And that's what people don't understand body composition has all to do with training I mean I get people and again, I don't want to make fun of them But I should because they're so stupid But like a message me and they're like, I mean honestly think about this for a second They'll be like 46 years old and they'll tell me they'll send me a picture of themselves and I look at them And I'm like, oh, that's 45% body fat and you're skinny, right?

And I'll be like they'll be like I don't understand why you know This has to be a guy for example, like I don't understand why my dick doesn't work. I have erectile dysfunction. Look at me I'm not fat and then I'll go back to him and I'll be like how much do you lift? And they'll be like I've never lifted a day in my life and I'll be like dude Your body fat is 45 to 50 percent. Have you ever had your body composition tested? No, man I just look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, yeah, I just looked at your picture You're fat and soft you have insulin resistance your dick doesn't work because you do not have Anything but this real body fat in your belly and it's causing a cytokine storm and all of your endocrine machinery doesn't work So it's like you you have to understand that like body composition is literally everything The fatter and softer and more insulin resistant you are the higher your inflammation The higher the levels of cytokines the higher the levels of you know, cellular degradation I mean all of these things are relative to how lean your body is So again, if you're under 10% as a man, then all you have is muscle and bone And if you're under say 15% for a woman, which is super elite, then all you have is muscle and bone So you don't have to be big and bulky. That's just excess muscle from your training But if you're under 10% body fat as a man You're doing something right and under 15% as a woman you're doing something right and obviously that's reflective of your training

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. That makes sense.

Yeah, no, it does completely. And I wonder, so like without example of people who like, can't quite see themselves, I wonder how much that has to do with the body point set point of the cultural lens we look through with today's culture since everybody, our collective weight is higher. Because, you know, you look back at pictures of like the 1920s people on the beach and people just looked completely different or like old game shows. I wonder with the GLPs and how everybody seems, I feel like people are losing weight now starting to systemically, I wonder if our collective, like view of weight will also lower again.

Jay Campbell
Well, so my my take on this and I don't want to offend anybody is like all this like fat acceptance movement nonsense That's happened in the last four to five years.

Whatever you want to call it, you know with the commercials and everything look No one is healthy.

Who's fat whether you accept that that they're fat and it's okay That's like a cultural moray or norm that is now like looked at in society is okay But let's not let's not get confused if you are fat.

You are not healthy you have Cellular markers that say you have insulin resistance and metabolic dysregulation.

That is a fact There is no avoiding that just because it's acceptable doesn't mean you're healthy So we don't want to confuse those two things even though society has like mismatched it to the point where it's like You know, it's okay to be fat And we should accept fat people.

I mean, yeah, of course you can accept anybody for anything But that does not make them healthy and again ultimately at the end of the day You will live the longest by being the leanest and again, i'm not telling people to be under 10 percent You know I think it's healthy for most men to be somewhere between like 15 and 18 percent And women to be somewhere between like 15 and 22 percent But once you get over 25 percent as a man or a woman You're not going to live as long as people who are leader than that.

It's very very simple And again, the statistics show this you're not going to go to any senior citizen homes and find fat people They're not alive.

They're dead So like, you know, are people living longer now heavier, you know, uh, more obese more Metabolically dysregulated insulin resistant.

Absolutely.

But are they living productively?

No They're you know, they're living in nursing homes or they're living in outpatient centers or you know They've got an oxygen tank and a wheelchair and you know that kind of stuff And so I you know, I kind of look at it as like, you know What is the difference like how do you define life you define life by the quality or the quantity?

And so medical which has failed and is a you know, an abomination is keeping people alive longer But it's not keeping people healthier.

Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, completely. And I could not agree more.

I think it's honestly a travesty that there is a movement called health at every size. I think it should be called love yourself at every size, you know, but it's not health. And also it makes people, because I don't think people feel good when they're in this, you know, obese situation of a body. It can't feel good. It's impossible.

Jay Campbell
You're a human cytokine storm when you're obese.

Melanie Avalon
And then you feel like if you don't, if you want to change that, that's not accepting yourself, which is so backward. Like, I just don't agree. I don't think it's.

Jay Campbell
No, no, I mean, I mean you and I we aren't gonna because there's a lot of great information to cover on this podcast, but like You know, I get into it with people every now and then when I lecture or when I do, you know Zoom webinars for clinics and stuff and i'll always have that one clinician Or nurse practitioner or somebody who's 300 pounds And she will like say like well, what about so and so she's healthy and it'll be like, you know Some fat olympic athlete or short sprinter, you know, who's not fat really she's like heavily muscled But she's like chunky, you know, and i'll be like dude like are you serious? But I mean look this is more reflective, you know, like that healthy at any size movement That's more reflective of the delusional nature of society Than it is about talking about health and wellness Because again people want to like reinforce, you know Again delusion.

I mean that's the best way to call it versus reality Which is no one is healthy. That is obese If you tell yourself or anyone that you're healthy as an obese person you are lying that is a lie There is nothing healthy about obesity nothing

Melanie Avalon
same page there. And I, like I said, I just feel bad because I feel like it makes people feel like they are not accepting themselves if they're not happy in that situation.

Jay Campbell
I love the love yourself. And look, I'm very outspoken about obesity. My mom died of COVID, but my mom was morbidly obese. It was a very like scarlet letter for me because of all the knowledge I have and all this stuff and I could never help her.

And I tried so hard in my 20s, tried was the operative word because I did nothing. But again, you said it. Until a person feels worthy of changing who and what they are, they're never gonna do it. And if you or I or any healthy person, you know, attempts to help a person who is not healthy get healthy and they're not actually motivated intrinsically to do it, they're not going to last. They will go, they will automatically default back to the level that you started a mat. And that's the one thing that I had to learn, you know, as whatever I am, a health professional or whatever, you know, I could not proselytize. I could not attempt to awaken anyone else. Like they have to be ready to do the work, right? It's the whole, you know, the teacher appears when the student is ready. You cannot make a person change who isn't ready to change. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Completely and first of all, I'm so sorry about your mom. I'm really sorry

Jay Campbell
Oh, it's okay. I mean, she got you know, she actually died of COVID, which was a scam. You know, they gave her remdesivir in the hospital, and she was dead like two days later. But you know, they got their $120,000.

I mean, we all know, who knows how many people, peers, relatives, friends and family that died of a COVID diagnosis. And it wasn't COVID. It just they ruled it that because the state or the federal government reinvented. Yeah, they refunded the hospital. It's insane.

Melanie Avalon
That's really horrible. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

And that's the reason actually a reason I love podcasting. You're talking about the teacher, like, you know, letting them come to you type thing. I love having podcasts because then I'm not trying to change anybody. Like I can just put the information out there and then the people who want to listen when they're ready, can listen and do the things.

Jay Campbell
That's all you can do. That's literally, it's like when you're in the gym and you see somebody who has absolutely no idea what they're doing, lifting or training or whatever. And, you know, in the goodness of your heart, you're like, ah, I should go over there. And I should teach them the correct technique or I should teach them the correct rec. But that's service to self. That's not service to others.

If they come to you and they ask you for help, now you are perfectly okay to assist. But if you walk up there attempting to help them, even if they're doing the worst form and you know what they're doing is gonna hurt them, that's service to self, that you have no right to intervene.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree so much. So to that point, people coming here to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, like I said, you have so many books in your 30 Days to Shreds protocol, it does heavily involve fasting. So listeners, we're not even gonna even remotely be able to capture all of the incredible information in Jay's books, so go get them now.

But to give people an idea, so like I said, I read the 30 Days to Shreds and there's these three different pathways that you can take, whether you're Beginner Advanced or FFO, which stands for, what does it stand for?

Jay Campbell
Fully effin' optimized.

Melanie Avalon
I have a quick question because at the beginning you figure out which one you are. What if you are different levels for the different categories?

What if for supplements you feel like you're one thing, for diet you feel like you're another, for training you feel like you're another, do you create a hybrid or do you pick one?

Jay Campbell
Yeah, it's a great question. You got to use your intuition. I mean, you usually we kind of defer to the higher end. So it's like if you're a supplement junkie, but you've never fasted, you would be probably in the middle. You know what I mean?

Versus, I mean, the only people that should be like literally like the newbie version or the virgin version or people that have done nothing who literally are clueless, and they're picking up the book, they're not hormonally optimized. They don't know their blood work. They're just absolutely utterly clueless, but they know they need to work. You know, it's hilarious. This is a perfect trend. So I just had somebody on my live stream on Sunday night on my live stream shows, and they're from the root cause Institute in cancer. And they're two of the smartest people that I've ever spoken to in my life. I would actually say the guy, I should actually, you should interview them for one of your podcasts because they cure cancer and I mean, they cure cancer. And these people are the two smartest people. They're like ascended masters in human bodies. Right. And so I saw an interview with this guy and I just literally being me, I reached out to his contact page and said, look, I don't know if you know who I am. Here's who I am. But I listened to an interview you did. And I would love to interview you because we, we, we speak the same language and the same lingo. And I think it would be amazing. And the guy wrote me back in 10 minutes. He's like, bro, I've been following you. I've been, I've been listening to the Jake Hamill podcast for six years. It was crazy. So I was like, oh my God, this is insane. So I mean, again, like minds follow like minds vibe, retract your tribe. So I had them on and they had the five stages of awakening. Now I'm going to give it to you right now because it's perfect for this podcast, but stage one is indoctrination, which means that most people never get by indoctrination, right? Because they believe in big pharma, big food, church, big Agra, you know, the external savior. And then number two is physical aspects of health detoxing, right? So they, that's the biggest step, right? Leaving the indoctrination, moving to the second step, which is like, Oh shit, I got to take care of my physical body. And so how do I detox my physical body? And you know, my wife, you know, Monica has this great statement that she said 10 years ago. And she was like, most people don't value their health until it's gone. And I know you know that because I'm sure you've had a lot of other brilliant minds on this podcast and talked about it, but think about how crazy that is that we live in a world right now where the average person, this is by the way, the average person doesn't even care about their physical body. They just exist in it. They eat, they don't exercise. They eat like shit. They drink copious amounts of alcohol, smoke, weed, smoke, vape, smoke, cigarettes, do horrible things to their body, focus on their business or focus on being a dad or whatever.

Jay Campbell
But then eventually their body just gives out. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you can just get to that awareness, again, past the indoctrination stage where it's like, Oh, my physical health matters. Now you can take ownership.

Now you can actually take, you know, meaningful initiative and with intention and obviously with massive action, and you could do anything you want. You can absolutely go from 350 pounds to 180 pounds. Right. So it's the mindset of like being aware that the physical body matters and how do we detoxify and we detoxify it by listening to podcasts like this, you know, buying books about fasting, you know, understanding how to do all these things. But I just, it's crazy when you really boil it down, how many people aren't living their life in alignment with the idea that the body does matter.

Melanie Avalon
I actually have a question about that, that ties in perfectly, which is because I completely understand what you're saying and I actually think about that a lot when I see stuff on social media and a lot of influencers who are the influencers who what they do is like taste all the like all the crumble cookies or like, you know, all the all the food and which is and this is going to relate to my question because there is an aspect of you wanting to enjoy life and everything like that. And at the same time, I'm like, I feel like they just don't, they just like people who are doing this like 24 seven, I'm like, do I just wish it's like they don't even see what this is doing to their health in the future.

My question is you have two pillars of diet. And one is, you know, a largely unprocessed foods diet. And then the second one is actually not letting your diet become neurotic and affect your, you know, your social life and your mental health and wellness. And I'm paraphrasing those two pillars. But that's like the vibe I got. So how do how do people how do we handle that? How do we handle like, enjoying life, having the food, doing, you know, eating the things, and also respecting our body being healthy? Like, how do we do that's a really hard thing for a lot of people.

Jay Campbell
It's an awesome question. And again, the answer is different 10 years ago than it is now. I mean, obviously 30 days to shreds. And by the way, you're the first person for me to say this to other than like my insider group, the fruit fasting has made me reexamine. My awareness towards dieting because when again, I don't want to rabbit hole because I want to answer your question, but we now know that fruit fasting, if you do it correctly, increases metabolic rate by 20%. So if you can increase your metabolic rate by just eating fruit, you will dramatically increase your body's ability to burn fat.

Okay. Now we can go deeper on that in a second, but like I'm telling you that because my answer to your question used to be that it's simple. I developed a diet one day you eat. If you're doing everything right, you're hormonally optimized. You're using, you know, growth hormone, agonist, peptides, or even growth hormone itself as a microdose. You're using mitochondrial optimizing things. You can dramatically increase your metabolic rate and you can enjoy food every other day, right? And on the days that you enjoy food, you're also trading with weights or resistance so you can, you know, you increase your body's insulin sensitivity, which obviously helps you digest, you know, carbohydrates, protein, and fat more easily because your, your body is like an insulin sump pump because you're building muscle. But now because we understand fruit fasting and again, this fruit fasting, when I say we understand this, this is four months old. So this is like absolutely tip of the spear. You've got Nick Norvitz now who's out there, you know, the Harvard educated nutritionist. There's now a friend of mine five months ago. He was attacking this and now he's writing about like, oh my god, like we don't even understand nutrition. We don't even understand metabolic capacities. We don't understand molecular dynamics. There's, there's things that we're learning that we have to overturn, you know, from the walls of thermodynamics because we never understood about phosphofructokinase, which is this rate-linomating enzyme that handles fructose consumption and fructose digestion. And now we have FGF21, which is this endocrine hormone that is massively upregulated in the presence of lots of fructose from fruit and it increases metabolic rate by 20%. Now, I'm not joking when I say this, there's studies and research out there on this. Imagine increasing your metabolic rate by 20% in addition to being hormonally optimized, in addition to be using human growth hormone or a growth hormone agonist peptide, like Tessamorel and Ipomerone or CJC, in addition to using mitochondrial optimizing peptides like BOTC, SS31, injectable 5-amino, NAD+, and then doing that understanding that you're, you know, your fruit fast is 20%. I mean, Melanie, you're increasing your metabolic rate by 35%.

Melanie Avalon
Is this only eating fruit? Only eating fruit.

Jay Campbell
Yes, this is I'll get to it. I'll break it down and show you like what I've done and what I'm doing But I'm going to Aruba next Thursday with my wife And I have been playing around with the fruit fast Again, the the internet knows it is a sugar fast, but that's a misnomer And we shouldn't say that because to do this right you're eating fruit only you're not You know, you can get away with eating gummy bears and licorice, you know non-fat just pure sugar Of candy, but you shouldn't because it's bad for your teeth and it's just you know, it's bad I mean again metabolically your body can handle it because it's just pure glucose or sucrose But you don't want it you want to eat fructose But the bottom line is i'm going to Aruba next Thursday with my wife And I will be the leanest most shredded Most muscular that i've ever been in my life at 54 from literally doing 10 days of fruit fasting I'll be way more Leaninger and way more muscular and way more energized than I ever would be from doing 30 days to shreds No, don't get me wrong.

You can do a 30 days to shred protocol like in my book Which is again, you know for the lay community that doesn't know what it means It's like every other day fasting on the day that you and I mean no food fasting It's so funny. You can't say fasting anymore. You got to say fruit fasting or no fasting for people to really understand

Melanie Avalon
It's like all different types.

Jay Campbell
Yeah, but so but the reality is it's like you can follow my 30 days of shreds protocol and you can get absolutely shredded But the difference between that protocol and fruit fasting is you will be way less energized because again, you're not eating You know as you know in the book There's there's periods of 48 to 60 hours of fasting and the fatter you are the more you should be doing those because you'll lose fat faster per unit of time, but you can now do this and not be depleted energetically because you're not eating any food and just eat fruit and Enhance metabolic rate dramatically when you're not enhancing metabolic rate when you're just not eating Look, there's some metabolic rate increase because obviously if you get into trace ketosis, you know in a 48 to 60 hour fast window There is some increased, you know FGF 21, which again is the endocrine hormone that's responsible for enhancing metabolic rate But it's minimal compared to fruit fasting So it's like, you know I'm a scientist even though I'm not a technical scientist But I'm capable of changing my opinion and adopting, you know information when we get more science to prove that you know We should change. There's a lot of people that won't change But I'm you know here to say that hey, you know, if what I know now If I was gonna you know write a Part 2 or a part 3 because it's technically part 3 30 days of shreds because the first book was the metabolic blow towards diet It was really the the origin or the genesis of that and then this was part 2 part 3 would would say hey, I've got a new improved way to do this and the new improved way to do this is eating fruit every other day and so you don't lose energy you don't have a Decline in performance because that's the thing, you know anyone who follows 30 days to shreds protocol can get absolutely shredded But you're gonna have energy deficits on the days that you're fasting for 48 to 60 hours Or you know the two and a half day window the weekend window you stop eating Friday night You eat again on you know 6 a.m. On Monday morning. You're gonna be tired on Sunday afternoon You know You're doing your two cardio sessions on that on that 48 hour to 60 hour window on Sunday or whatever if you're doing it from Friday night to Sunday morning and you're gonna be tired It's gonna be hard to do that Versus if you're just eating fruit you have all the energy in the world and you're not having any kind of muscle degradation or catabolism because the FGF 21 is a Anabolic endocrine hormone that's muscle sparing. So increasing metabolic rate by 20% and sparing Muscle tissue so a lot of people come at me. I'm getting deeper into the fruit fast now So a lot of people will come at me and they'll say oh, bro That's only for enhanced bros like you, you know, Mark Bell is like one of the biggest proponents of this right now He's like all over the internet talking about this and he's a good friend of mine and he really exposed me to this He's not the guy that created this the guy that created.

Jay Campbell
This is a guy by the name of Joe Binley and he goes by Joe English on Instagram because he's in England. He's from England He's got the massive UK twang, but but the reality is that this diet works for anyone obese insulin resistant lean If in fact, I will say this and I say this to everyone now and like I said when this podcast ends I'm writing an email tonight.

That's gonna detail You know this like Quantified after using it for four months now of like how to do this, right? But any person can do this diet and in one month Probably lose 20 to 25 percent body fat and not have any energy deficit and feel fine and continue to eat on days That you would have normally been fasted on my 30 days to shred protocol. It's crazy It is it is without a doubt 100% unequivocally scientifically the strongest best fat loss diet known to man It's better than keto. It's better than carnivore and remember when I say that I'm the guy that helped Lyle McDonald write the first book on ketogenic dieting I was in a ketogenic diet for three years and I was in a cyclical ketogenic diet So I have more experience than any of the keto and carnivore people I've forgotten more about this shit than those people know and the problem with keto and carnivore in comparison to this diet is After a while and remember I told you this on the last podcast you in you retard insulin metabolism So people that are on long-term carnivore diets have high a 1c values Because their insulin production is ineffective and inefficient.

In fact, I could argue it actually stops working And so a lot of these people that have been on long-term carnivore They go get their a 1c and they've got like a 5.7 or 5.8 a 1c, which is they're like type 2 diabetic Right. So it's like you have to be very cautious. You know, you use the word nuance. I love that word But if you do the fruit fast correctly And there's only a couple exceptions for people, by the way, just so I can say it. And I want to say that the exceptions for fruit fasting people are people that have sevarious NGFL, right? They have the, what do you call it, fatty liver disease. And those people are the only ones that should be extra cautious with doing the fruit fast.

And I mean that by like getting your labs before you start, you know, not eating like dates or raisins or like very, you know, not starchy, but heavy fructose. You know, you want to eat a lot of citrus fruits like watermelon and peaches and pineapple and apples and applesauce and plums and berries and things like that. But I'm telling you, it works better than anything. I know hundreds, if not thousands of people right now, because they're all messaging me because I'm like one of the biggest people that are out there talking about this now who have started this diet and said, holy shit, I thought you were crazy. Holy shit. I've never, I mean, I'm insulin resistant. People are rebooting their thyroid production and rebooting their insulin sensitivity and their insulin production. Just call it their fasting glucose is going down because the more you increase insulin sensitivity by eating all these fructose carbs, the faster your metabolism comes.

Jay Campbell
So literally no exaggeration. I'll just tell you really quick for the listening audience and then you can go whatever rabbit hole you want down on this. But basically this is a diet where you basically, let's say you start on Monday, you eat nothing but fruit all day Monday. You eat no protein, no fat. It's just fruit.

You drink. I mean, literally as I'm, because I'm on this hardcore right now, I've been drinking matz apple, apple cherry juice the whole time I've been talking to you. So fruit juice, apples, pears, pineapple. I love crushed pineapple. I love cubed pineapple, bananas. I mean, if you really want to eat raisins, you know, you can, but I mean, I kind of tell heavier set people to stay away from that. You do the same thing on Tuesday. Depending on your training, you know, I recommend you lift weights like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and I'll explain the Friday, Saturday lifting in a second. But like today was my Wednesday lifting. I lifted with my wife at about 11, 10 45. I was done about 12. I came home and I had grass fed beef and sweet potatoes. So I ate my first like carb non fruit and obviously protein in two days.

And now since then I've been just working and now I'm talking to you on a podcast and I've been drinking this whole entire bottle of matz apple cherry juice. And then tonight I will eat another protein and dry carb like rice. It'll probably be like shrimp or white fish and rice. And then I'll go to bed and then tomorrow morning I'll jump right back into the fruit fast. I'll just eat nothing but fruit on Thursday and I'll eat nothing but fruit on Friday. I'll train again on Friday. I might not train on Friday. I might just do cardio, but remember when you're eating fruit, you're getting somewhere between, you know, depending on the size of the person somewhere between 350 and 650 grams of carbs a day and pure fructose, which again, when you hear that you instantly as a nutritional person or someone who thinks that like all that sugar from fructose and carbs is bad for you. It's going to make you fat. It's the opposite. So your body is massively upregulating through the enzyme phosphofructokinase. It's upregulating this endocrine hormone called FGF 21, which is fiberglass growth factor at 21, which massively increases metabolic rate, which shreds you, makes you leaner, gives you more energy.

And everyone sees this after the first two days. So anyway, to continue on Friday, more fruit, go to bed. If you have to have like dry starch or something like that, because you're craving dry starch, you can have white rice and salt. You can eat like sourdough bread. I mean, there's, you know, Joe Binley has a book. I'll send you the book, you know, after this call and you can read the book, but you know, I have my own protocol so I can send you that too.

Jay Campbell
I've actually written about this on IG and X. And so a lot of people have followed the threads and stuff like that. But basically on Saturday, if you want to have like a depletion workout, like late Saturday morning, you know, 15 to 20 reps, a couple sets, you know, get your body massively glycogen depleted, and then all day Saturday, just eat dry carbs and protein. And then on Sunday, it's kind of like you could probably eat whatever you want because you've gotten so ripped from eating all that fruit during the week.

And so then you basically assess your body composition. If you're a heavy person, you're probably gonna have to do this for a month, maybe six weeks. If you're somebody like me or you and you wanna just get into absolute the best peak condition you could be so you look great in a bikini for an exotic vacation or maybe you're competing or doing a photo shoot, you might need one more week. I'm going to Aruba next Thursday and so I'm gonna do it Monday through Thursday again. And then we fly to Aruba and then my wife and I are gonna probably hopefully get some pictures in Aruba, maybe on the beach, super lean and shredded. And then I'll just go back into my normal lifestyle of like normal, whether I do 30 days of shreds. I mean, normally when I eat normally, I probably eat omnivore on my training days and then on my non-training days, I fast, like no food fast for maybe 16 to 18 hours. And then I eat omnivore couple meals. So that's like my normal lifestyle eating. But again, when I wanna fruit fast now, I can get absolutely shredded. And when I say shredded, I mean, I'm talking like 5% body fat. I can go from 10 to five in 10 days. And yes, I can do that in 30 days to shreds by no food fasting, but I'm much more depleted. It's much harder. Cardio is much harder. I have less energy. Now the people listening to this are gonna be like, oh, Jay's crazy. I mean, he might have fat loss, but what about his biomarkers? Is he increasing the load on his liver because of, he's got all this fructose coming into the liver and the liver is rate limited enzymatically and breaking down glucose and storing glucose in the liver. And they're all good questions and people from a universal dogmatic understanding of nutrition have a right to ask those questions. But what they don't understand, and this is what Nick Norvitz is talking about and I'm talking about now is that this is flipping the biochemical equation in the presence of nothing but fruit. Now this is the most important thing, Melanie. Fruit without protein and fat. The body goes into hypermetabolic mode and increases again through the conversion of phosphofructokinase, this again, super powerful endocrine hormone called FGF21, which is fiberglass growth factor 21. And that massively increases metabolic rate and glycation and burns through all the fructose and the glucose from whatever you're eating. And in the process of burning it out, you feel better, you're more energized, you're shredding body fat, because again, you have an increase in metabolic rate.

Jay Campbell
And by the way, this is just from the fruit. If you're doing all the other things, right? Metabolic optimizing peptides like MotC or SS31 or 5-Amino or SS or NAD+, or taking sloop, SLU, PP-332 or any of those things, Metasred, the stuff that we sell at BioLongevity Labs, you're increasing your metabolic rate by another 10 to 12 to 15%. So again, what I told you in the beginning of this call that people can now in 10 to 14 days lose five to 7% body fat, if you're a lean person naturally or you keep yourself in decent condition, in that short amount of period when you're already that lean, that's unheard of. But this is all possible now.

So we're now in a totally different time and age when people who understand these things can completely and dramatically alter their body composition in the shortest amount of time possible. And again, totally healthy, because what I haven't told you is that Mark Bell, and by the way, I'm getting all my labs done at the end of August. When we get back from Aruba, it'll be three and a half months. Actually, it'll be almost four months that I've been playing around with this. And so I'm gonna get all my labs and my biomarkers done. But I've looked at tons of people who've been on this diet longer than me, and all of their biomarkers have improved. In fact, Mark Bell's fasting glucose is 2.7, which is insane. Like it doesn't even pencil. It makes no sense. They're like, how can someone be eating 650 to 750 grams of sugar through fructose of fruit every day and have a glucose level below 2.9? It's insane. It doesn't make any sense metabolically, but that's because we've never understood what this FGF21 endocrine hormone does in the absence of protein and fat. So we were always looking at fructose. but we weren't looking at it in isolation. We were looking at it with the combination of fat and protein being consumed around it. It's the protein and fat that inhibits the FGF21 production. So again, this is all new science. No one knew about this. It's turning everything upside down. There are thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands of people now around the world using the fruit fast and they're losing body fat at rates never before seen. And again, in the presence of like good health factors and longevity factors, it's not doing anything negative. Now that doesn't mean that we won't see things, six months, eight months, nine months from now that tells us, oh, you know what? We can do this, but we also have to take this supplement, right? Because like Joe Binley will say, the guy that wrote the book on this, he'll say, well, you need Tudka. You need supplements to support the liver. You also need like choline or choline by tartrate for also to help with like bio production and bioflow and stuff like that. So there's probably things that we'll do to tweak this diet as we learn more and more about it. But for now, in the short term, most people are seeing incredible body composition changes and also improved biomarkers, which when you're really measuring fat loss and body composition change, that's all that really matters.

Melanie Avalon
So I was doing like the keto diet, the low carb, and I got really alert by the idea of fruit and I was really scared to start eating carbs again because I had entered what I think happens to a lot of people is they get stuck in this low carb world and they think if they have carbs, they're going to gain weight and

Jay Campbell
Well, you will remember, if you've done it a long time, it does retard insulin metabolism. So in the short term, you will hold water and you will gain weight, a hundred percent.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So I realized though, I was like, you know what, I think the problem is the carbs and the fat together. So I was like, what if I'm having the high protein still, but I switch my like fuel source from primarily fats, primarily carbs and make that primarily fructose because I just went down the rabbit hole of, I thought there was a lot of benefits to fructose. So I basically switched to like a high protein, high fruit diet with fasting. So like daily fasting and then eating high protein and high fruit at night.

And that's why I have a question about the FGF 21. Doing that, my blood sugar lowered. I lost weight. My energy came back. I was like, oh, I was like, hold on.

Jay Campbell
about the fruit. So the only problem with what you did, and by the way, what you did works in 99% of people. Everyone who does this experiences what you experience. They experience enhanced energy.

They experience improved insulin sensitivity and production. So again, insulin is right. Remember the key and critical metabolic hormone. I mean, we want to control insulin to live longer, but at the same time, we want to also have ability to modify our insulin for energy production. And so when you're eating fruit all the time, you have insane energy, you know, and that's why like when you're doing this and you're working out again, the fruit fast and in your call it your fruit fast windows, you never are tired. Like people stop drinking coffee, Melanie, they stop taking caffeine. They stop taking anything that enhances mental focus or, you know, improves alertness because you don't need it. So again, this is why I like this more so now than my 30 days to shred, which again, I have to say is my no food fasting thing.

Because again, when you're not eating, sure, there's benefits. You're removing senescent cells, you're increasing hermet or hormesis. You know, there's a lot of other benefits to doing that. But as you know, as the time goes through the day and you're at 19 or 20 or 21 hours of no food, you become less energetic. Like there's no avoiding that. Yeah, you could take stems and shit like that, but that's no good because obviously you're now you're screwing with your adrenals and as I always say, what goes up must come down. But when you're just taking insulin, I mean, improving your insulin production through drinking fruit and consuming fruit, again, most importantly, in the absence of protein and fat, you're not getting fatter. You're improving metabolic rate, again, through the increase of phosphofructokinase and FGF 21.

And there's a there's an anabolic effect. It again is protein sparing when you have all that insulin from the fruit. So you can't. And this is where all the bros get mad. They're like, oh, it's only for people that are enhanced. No, it will do the same thing for a non-enhanced person as an enhanced person will spare muscle tissue. So you will not lose fat. I mean, excuse me, you will not lose muscle tissue. So the only thing to you, what you were saying is, and again, I think people are metabolically different, you know, based on genetics and stuff like that. But the protein excess protein with the rice or with the fruit will kick down or out of elevated FGF 21. You'll still get the benefit of the higher insulin, but you won't have the fat loss that you would have in the absence of protein.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah, my question was, was it, you know, equally the fat and protein affecting the FGF21, you know, more the fat? It's literally, it's literally the fructose.

But the protein does affect it, not just the fat.

Jay Campbell
The protein, so it's the, so Nick Norwitz just did an awesome article about this the other day, and Nick is an absolute dorky guy, genius, but just dorky guy. And he is a pro keto bro before all of this. And so it's blown his mind apart because he was like, this is not possible. I know everything there is to know about nutrition.

So now he's deep down this rabbit hole, but it's the absence of protein that's really stoking the FGF21 fires. So you could probably have, and this is important. And again, this is in the book. And you know, when I send you my protocol, you'll understand it, but you can have MCT oil, you can have palmitic acid. You can have stearic acid and those fats elevate FGF21. So like you can get like palm oil or kernel oil, but again, MCT oil, you know, is usually the best, but so you could take a lot of MCT oil and fruit and you would be fine and you'll keep blasting FGF21. The type of protein that you take is the type is what is going to really fuck up FGF21 production and it's isoleucine. So it's basically chicken whey protein, turkey, anything with a lot of isoleucine is going to absolutely destroy FGF21 production. So if you're going to eat protein when you're doing this and you want to keep FGF21 pretty high, it's going to be white fish, shrimp, scallops, and then the only protein powder that you could take would be collagen. And Nutricost has a really good blend of chocolate, peanut butter, chocolate, and salted caramel that you can get on Amazon and you can drink that post-workout with MCT oil, even on your fruit fasting days and get away with it and not knock yourself out of high levels of FGF21.

Melanie Avalon
The last time that I had heart alcohol, I might have had it like once or twice since then, but in college. And it was because I was always doing like crazy diet experimentation. So I decided to do a fruit fast actually. And I was going to do it for three days, but I decided to just eat apples. So I ate just apples for three days. I felt so amazing, like literally so amazing.

I kept going. I did it for 11 days. And then I went to film school prom, a party, and I had some, oh, and I cut out caffeine and everything. Like I felt so high. And then I had, I had just the normal amount of alcohol I would normally drink. And it literally, it just killed me. Like I was like, I felt like I was dying.

Jay Campbell
So you know why that was so so so that's a great transition So so this actually proves how bad if you are how bad alcohol is actually for the human body So like when your body is got massive amounts of FGF 21 Which clearly you did because you're eating apples for three days all of a sudden introducing alcohol, which again metabolically And I don't want to like kind of dork But like you when alcohol comes into the body it is basically converted in this like chain of fatty acids Dehydrogenase ultimately it gets to what is called triglycerol and triglycerol is then converted to triglyceride And so when you drink alcohol in excess You're gonna be soft in places that your body is prone to store fat, right? So for men, it's the belly That's why guys have beer bellies for women.

It's like the hips the glute and hamstring tie in and again This is all regional body fat storage relative to genetics and blood flow And so it's you feel like shit when you have all that FGF 21 and all that insulin to throw in a solvent Into your body it would just literally like it would be like throwing water into your gas tank when your gas when you were like a Ferrari flowing

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So to that point, actually, because I'll let you know my thoughts on alcohol and everything. So I feel like if we look at, I think, well, first of all, I think there's a bit of a problem with the literature on alcohol in general, because it often lumps together alcohol into one category, like alcohol, or we'll call it like all wine, all beer. There's not any nuance of, is this dry farm, low alcohol, pesticide-free organic wine compared to conventional high alcohol, full of colorizers and additives and pesticides and all the things. So I think there's a distinction that could make a difference.

Because I know if I drink certain drinks, I just feel horrible. But if I drink, I'm neurotic with what I drink as far as the wine. I feel like it's additive to my life. And then if we look at the longest lived populations, with the exception of Loma Linda, they all have some amount of alcohol in their diet. And so you could ask the question, well, maybe without that, they would live even longer. Or maybe it's kind of like the, maybe the benefits outweigh any potential negatives of actual alcohol content from the polyphenols, the rest of the drink, the social setting. It's a very, again, nuanced topic.

Jay Campbell
So here's the answer. Here's the answer.

So I wrote about this in my TOT Bible. The human body can handle four ounces of unfermented alcohol per 24 hours. So that means that if you drink four ounces of, you know, call it, you know, wine, even four ounces of like distilled vodka or distilled liquor, you're probably not going to have any kind of like, what do you call it, delay from a standpoint of, you know, your central nervous system is not going to be depressed. But how many people can actually go four ounces and not go beyond that? Very few, if not any, right? Because again, it's like, you know, does all sorts of things to lower inhibition, to do all these things that people enjoy, right? So that's why they keep drinking it. So you can, you know, and to what you were saying about the different forms, I mean, again, it just comes down to the ounces. Because again, at the end of the day, molecular alcohol is alcohol when it's converted. So like, if you want to live the longest and have the least amount of brain decay, you know, degenerate neurodegeneration, depending on what pathways, you should avoid alcohol like the plague because it is zero value. I mean, it really is zero value. But if you want to be that person that says, oh, no, I enjoy a glass of wine with my friends and it's like great for me in social settings, I mean, just keep it below four ounces. You know what I mean? Because that's like what the body can actually process and handle. But I would still say that if you drink four ounces of wine every single day, by the time you're in your 40s, you're fucked.

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, I don't think people because I don't think I agree and I don't think people People don't realize that like so like if you look at like a bottle of wine You could have like a 11 ounce abv wine and you can easily have like a 15 ounce a 15, you know 15 percent Sorry outs 11 percent abv wine and there's also a 15 percent abv wine and people just consider those the same And then a glass of wine is glass of wine. No Because if you have a 15 percent compared to 11 percent like that's a big difference Like

Jay Campbell
Than the amount the best way i'll say it is now and this is going to probably be offensive to some people but if you are Heavily faxed and boosted And you're drinking alcohol on the weekends getting blown up and I mean like you're getting in sloshed You are dramatically shortening your lifespan Because your autoimmunity is already let's just say detuned for lack of a better word and by adding in You're pouring kerosene on the fire. You know what i'm saying? Like that's the best way to say it. So like You know people in their late teens and early 20s and even late 20s and maybe early 30s They're going out every weekend getting wasted You know, can you clean up your act?

Yes But if you're literally in your 40s and you're still doing that and you're heavily vaxen boosted, you're not going to live much longer I mean, I mean melanie I could tell you because I see people's labs We are we have a national crisis. It's not a national crisis. It's a global crisis I mean I am seeing people's inflammatory markers when they send me their labs and these are normally I should say normal otherwise healthy people like, you know, they're not insulin. They don't look fat They're not fat and they're not, you know insulin resistant But their inflammatory markers are literally indicative of a person who has one foot in the grave I mean it is so bad that it blows my head off Like i'm gonna just this is a person who sent me their labs three days ago. It's a woman. She's a nurse So again, the medical system people are the worst because they were forced So you're ready for this? So this is from june 14th 2025 and again, this is a normal if you saw this woman you would be like she's healthy. She takes care of herself She's exercising She got two shots and two boosters again. She's a nurse forced her high sensitivity crp, which is c-reactive protein is 30 0.51 on a range of zero to three 30 her c-reactive protein on a range of zero to three is 28 Her esr her fibrin activity her neutrophil lymphocyte and her platelet lymphocytes are all 40 points to 60 points over the high end of the risk range And this is a normal person who's 42 years old. So what i'm saying is and i'm not trying to scare people But if you're out there and you're vaxxed again and boosted and let's just say two and two And you're sloshing yourself on the weekends. You're not going to live much longer Because your autoimmunity is turned off and again, i'm really sorry if you were forced to do this There are ways to fix yourself. There are people that can do plasmapheresis. You can fly to costa rica Panama mexico there's other places and you can have your blood exchanged, but it costs 75 to a hundred thousand dollars But i'm telling you dude I see this every day if not every other day and i am literally flabbergasted because it drives me I mean it saddens me Like I get sad just telling you right now because I think about these people, you know They were forced to do this, but I mean it's not good, dude

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, I think the binge drinking type situation like going out drinking all like that is not good either like not never good. Wow, so many things.

Okay, one quick question on the the alcohol and the mental or like the brain. It's interesting as well. I've had on the show, the researchers behind the the mind diet, which they did like the longest or the the I guess they've done the most research on diet to prevent cognitive decline. And their protocol literally like you get points for having wine in the diet, which

Jay Campbell
It's like look genetics are everything and and you know going back to the five stages of awakening I mean again This is very important, you know And obviously there's a lot of smart people to listen to your podcast and a lot of people that are very smart in my world too, but Number four in the stages of awakening is the emotional impact of stress on our physiology Do you realize and I mean this for everyone listening? I don't care.

This is not woo We are nothing more than energy we are vibrating atoms and oscillating waves of energy in these physical bodies and These physical bodies get disease or cancer heart disease, whatever you want to call all the aging diseases due to resistance in the energy field So when those researchers come on your show and they talk about people live the longest from drinking wine There's also a reason that they live long and it has nothing to do with physical It's literally because they are meaning the people that live the longest who are drinking the wine are happy whole and complete And what I mean by that is they do not have resistance in their energy field when they drink wine they do it in the spirit of Abundance prosperity generosity gratitude. They're with friends their family. I mean again They're in a place of happiness of productivity of like feeling You know super productive and super You know abundant they're not coming from a place of lack And so that's what we have to understand is that like literally the emotional the psycho emotional Component of our being is what affects us the most and whether or not we get disease or live longest It's more. It's more than anything. I mean again, you know, here's I'm the guy here talking about fruit fasting and peptides and all this stuff And you're all physical implements but at the end of the day If you feel that you are worthy and that you love and trust yourself You can absolutely live into your 120s, you know 115 113 whatever and drink Four to six to eight to ten ounces of wine every day So it's it really you know, we really have to understand that the mental place the state of being this You know of our emotionality. Are we in resistance or are we in flow is ultimately going to determine how long we live?

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I think it's overwhelmingly powerful. And I mean, we see it just scientifically with the placebo effect with pills, you know? So yeah, incredible.

Jay Campbell
Fat people, you know, I'll just say this, fat people don't love and trust themselves. Because if you were not fat, now that doesn't mean that skinny people or healthy, I mean lean people love and trust themselves either. I'm not saying it's all that way, but like to be that level of poor physical health means that you have a psycho-emotional block of resistance somewhere from trauma as a child, a past life, you know, some sort of abusive setting. You were emotionally or physically or verbally abused or something, and you shut down and you stopped caring about what is very important, which again is the stage two, your physical vessel, right? Like you need a healthy physical vessel to enjoy your life because when you're fat, you're in pain. Your default state is suffering. So it's like when you see someone like that, you automatically know that they don't feel truly worthy of being any other way. And so that's their default state, which is suffering and it's horrible, right? Like again, you and I don't understand that, but like it sucks. And so it's like, they're not gonna change until they get to a place. And again, they have to be ready to do this where they feel worthy of changing. It's really that simple.

And that's kind of the way it is in life. And I'm not saying that healthy, lean people don't hate themselves too, because there's plenty of people like that. There's plenty of people in the bodybuilding world that have muscle dysmorphia and body dysmorphia. You know what I mean? But it's like, you cannot change until you feel worthy of change. I cannot tell anybody, you cannot tell anybody anything about all these things that we're talking about and will make sense to them until it makes sense to them. You know, it's the whole like, until a person is sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, they're not gonna change.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's a reason actually, that, because I think people can see these, like, protocols, and they can seem intense, and like, it's a lot of rules, and it's stressful, and it's going to require a lot of change to do it.

And at the same time, I think for a lot of people, having these these rules and boundaries that you just commit to, then that actually frees up a lot of willpower and can change your relationship to the entire diet, fitness experience, because now you just follow the rules. And then the physiological changes happen, you experience a new thing, it kind of can like be a backwards way in for people to, I think, have a new relationship to weight loss, health, training their bodies by having like the plan and the rules to follow.

Jay Campbell
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I agree. Yep. I mean, I don't agree. I know you're right. It's a fact.

Melanie Avalon
So we'll ask a quick question about the fruit fasting. If a person is doing this and not taking the peptides that they needed to take, will they lose muscle?

Jay Campbell
No, no. So that's the craziest part about this. And I've experimented again, not obviously myself, because I am enhanced, but I've had hundreds of people message me on Instagram and TikTok. I mean, not TikTok, Twitter X. It's hard to keep up with the social media these days, who have read my threads and sent me private messages and said, you know, I really doubted this, but I was like, everything else doesn't work for me. Look, I've had so many keto and carnivore people who have switched over to this diet and said, I never thought anything was going to get my scale moving again. I never thought I was going to feel this energized. I cannot believe that I actually stopped eating carnivore and keto.

And again, this is simple. You've already talked about this. You experienced it yourself. When you pigeonhole yourself in a carnivore keto diet for so long, your body's insulin metabolism retards, it slows down, it becomes inefficient. Your A1C level, which is your blood glucose measurement level spikes, it goes higher. You're literally a borderline type two diabetic. And as you said, when you start reintroducing carbs into your life or your diet, you feel like shit. You start holding water, you gain weight, because again, your insulin metabolism is not functioning efficiently. And I would even argue correctly or properly at all. And so there's going to be a delay in your body getting back. And so that's why the fruit fast works so well, because if you do seven to 10 days of it, it'll bring your insulin metabolism back and it'll bring it back way faster than any other way. Because I think a lot of people, when I was one of these people, when I came off the cyclical ketogenic diet of doing it for three years straight, my insulin metabolism was retarded for six months. I mean, I remember I was having narcolepsy. I would eat like a carb meal at one o'clock and I would be wanting to snore at two o'clock. It was horrible. I remember it took me six months. And again, I knew nothing like I know now that was back in my twenties. But now knowing when I know, like I could tell anyone who's a carnivore keto person who's been hardcore and deep into those diets to just do the fruit fast for seven to 10 days and your energy will literally come back. Your insulin will turn back on. Your metabolism will come back on and you will start the plateau that you're on right now because your blood glucose is high and your insulin is not functioning. Your plateau will, you'll blow through your plateau right away. And that's what I'm seeing. So there's, again, there's, there's no reason for anybody who's not on testosterone or not on peptides to not do the fruit fast because again, the FGF21 is not only metabolic enhancing, but it's anabolic and protein sparing.

Melanie Avalon
Another question, and it's related to that because one of my favorite parts of the shreds book was at the end. And it was a very motivating and helpful piece of the book.

And it was talking about how, like, basically, there's always something you can do if you're stuck in a plateau and you go through, like, exercise stuff, diet stuff. So I'm guessing now you would definitely add to that the fruit fast. But the question I have is, what are things, just in general, if people feel like they're stuck in a plateau, so clearly there's this fruit fast option. But in general, what are things people can and can't change to try to break through a plateau?

Jay Campbell
So I just, it's a great question. I literally just answered this on X to somebody like two days ago. So, I mean, it really depends on whether or not a person is using a GLP one peptide or has never used one. So I will just say as like a, a very garden variety template cookie cutter answer, if you've never used a GLP, the greatest plateau breaker ever is red true tide, which is a GLP three peptide and very, very simply, as I said earlier in the show, but you know, it stands good to refresh, you start low and you go slow.

If you're a woman, you use what my wife uses. My wife is obviously a very, very lean, very ripped 53 year old woman, and she uses 0.10 milligrams twice a week, which is literally one thirtieth of a weekly dose that they give in the pharma world. And it still works amazingly well. It eliminates food noise, increases metabolic rate slows, by the way, it's very minimal, but it does enhance or slow gastric motility, which means obviously it suppresses appetite and slows digestion a little bit, but it's very minimal compared to like the GLP ones and the GLP twos, which are again, the first appetite in the manjaros. I mean, uh, uh, we go ease, which are known to cause the side effects and to cause, you know, the issues that people have with digestion, because again, they're not, they're not eating right. They're not doing all the things that we talked about earlier on this podcast, but rather true tide at a micro dose twice a week for three weeks, a month is going to dramatically increase metabolic rate. It's going to dramatically increase nutrient partitioning. It's going to improve insulin sensitivity. It's anabolic as long as again, you're eating enough protein and training. So that would be number one. I think number two, you know, if you've been fasting without food and you're in a massive, you know, you've been saying in a very high caloric deficit of say three or four weeks, and again, you know, let's just use four weeks as kind of the maximum of 30 days to shred protocol. The best thing to do is, is to eat a lot of food. I mean, Mark Bell talks about this all the time.

If you've been, and this applies to keto carnivore 30 days without food fasting, you know, doing the 30 days protocol, when you increase food consumption, and again, primarily knowing what we now know about carbs and fructose, if you just ramjacked five or 600 grams of carbs for two or three days in a row, your body's metabolic rate will go up because something has to burn the carbs. And again, we now know there's, you know, biochemical releases of, you know, through phosphococcal kinase and FGF 21. If you just eat, you know, you talked about the rice diet. If you just eat dry rice, four to 600 grams of dry rice a day for two or three days in a row, and maybe just eat a very super low protein, you know, keep that minimal to none, maybe, maybe some MCT oil or, you know, some, uh, Italian dressing or, you know, olive oil or something like that, even MCT oil, same thing, you know, your, your body's insulin production and insulin or nutrient partitioning and all that is just going to go up.

Jay Campbell
It's going to ramp up. So those would be the two things, you know, that I would recommend.

I mean, obviously I could talk about mitochondrial optimizing peptides that you could add to that. I mean, my favorite, which we're going to make a blend on this now, and I don't want to rabbit hole, but my favorite peptide mix blend, and by the way, this is going to be a massive seller is, uh, any D plus injectable five amino and not see all in a medical grade pen, all blended together. They mix perfectly well. That is instant energy for anyone who is a dumpster fire or a metabolic emergency, insulin resistant, too much weight, no energy, you know, tanked metabolism, injecting about eight to 10 units of that every other day for a week or maybe, you know, maybe four weeks, three weeks or whatever, depending on how bad you are is instant energy. That's instant. Give me exercise, instant. Give me improved metabolic rate, instant, like energy to train or exercise. I mean, it's incredible what that does and no one is selling that as a blend yet, but we will be selling that very soon. So I was kind of like an experiment that my business partner and I have been playing for the last four weeks with it, but that product, that'll be an insane. We're going to actually call it the metabolic blend, I think, but it just massively increases metabolism. So that's, you know, that's, you can explore the mitochondrial peptides too. That would be like option three.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, and again, I will refer listeners to our really epic conversation that was almost entirely on peptides on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Yeah. So friends, go to biolongevitylabs.com use the coupon code Melanie Avalon for 15% off.

Thank you so much, Jay, especially because like we talked about earlier, clearly, these are such powerful compounds that could radically change people's lives, but they need two things. They need one, the right information. So you're providing that. And then two, they need the right substances. So right, I guess those are the two things they need.

Jay Campbell
that's nailing it right on the head. You need the right guidance and instruction, and you need the right products that are pure and efficacious.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Okay, so bio longevity labs calm coupon code Melanie Avalon for 15% off Was there anything else you want to touch on? We covered a lot of ground

Jay Campbell
No, I mean, this was an amazing podcast. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

We did. I don't think, I don't think there's really anything that we didn't cover. I think we nailed it. I think we hit it all.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And friends, just get Jay's books because it's all in there. Are you going to write a sugar fast book? A fruit fast?

Jay Campbell
I probably should. I've written pretty prolifically on X. I've got a couple of really super deep dives, two of them, which I'm going to send to you so you can read them and get the deep dives. But I honestly think, and I'm not joking when I say this, and I think my head would have blown off if I said this two months ago, but I think this is going to revolutionize nutrition.

I think that as more scientists dig into this and start seeing... I mean, again, if you just look at this from a theoretical standpoint and realize that by just eating fruit, and again, it's sugar, because again, at the end of the day, fructose, glucose, sucrose, it all breaks down to the same thing. But if you could increase your metabolism by 20% by just eating fruit and doing it strategically, I mean, dude, what's better than that? I mean, metabolic rate on a ketogenic diet, because again, we wrote the book, Lyle wrote the book, but I helped him write the book back in the 90s. We estimated that the enhanced metabolic rate from a ketogenic diet was 7%. So a carnivore diet is probably 4% to 5%. I think you know this because you've had other smart people on here, but 90% of people who do keto do it wrong because they don't do the right protein and fat percentage. I think it literally is supposed to be 79% to 83% fat and the rest protein. And so most people follow the Atkins style of keto, and they think they can just eat hamburgers all day, and that's not keto. And that's another thing, and we didn't talk about this, but I should say this just to delineate this, but people have high A1C levels when they're doing keto and carnivore because they're eating hamburgers all the time or they're eating raw meat or cooked meat or whatever, animal protein. And they're getting sugar from the protein, which is a very inefficient metabolic conversion called gluconeogenesis, right? So all that over-consumed protein becomes sugar and feeds the brain and also feeds the muscles, but it's very, very inefficient. And eventually, the insulin metabolism or the metabolic response, the glycation pathways from insulin shut down or become diminutized or just inefficient. And that's why people have high A1C levels and again, high blood glucose and become lethargic and have plateaus and can't lose fat because their insulin is not working correctly.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just think there's so much, so much confusion out there. So thank you for what you're doing. This was epic. Can you please, we should just like annually have you back on the shows for more.

Jay Campbell
would love to. I mean, you asked the best question. So anytime you want me to come on, please ask.

And I'll just say for the listening audience, you can find me on social at J Campbell. So it's J, Y, and then Campbell, like the soup spelled out three, three, three. And I'm primarily on Instagram and X. I do have a YouTube channel that is heavily shadow banned because you know, they don't want this information getting out. I think they were trying to block this podcast.

Melanie Avalon
I know, we've been having so many, and you know what's crazy, Jay?

It cut out for me at one point, and I don't think, like, I don't know if you heard, because I came right back, but it was right after you said COVID, and then like cut out.

I was like,

Jay Campbell
Of course, I mean, of course, remember, everything is run by the AI. So when the AI hits or hears a tangent, a term, a word, a phrase, they can absolutely block it out. So it'll be interesting when you run back the recording to see if it was completely moved out. But I mean, that happens all the time.

But also my website, of course, jcamble.com, there's a lot of free information there. We now are over 100 articles that are on page one regarding peptide and bioregulators. So that's also a great place to check out.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put links to everything in the show notes. And again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 448.

Oh, this is so awesome, Jay. Thank you. I'm pumped up. And I'm looking forward to talking to you again in the future with with the new things that you've learned.

Jay Campbell
For sure, Melanie. Anytime you need me, reach out to me, but thank you so much.

And just make sure you email me and I'll get this out to my team when this is posted so we can blast this out everywhere, because this was epic.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect will do. Have a good rest of your day.

Bye Thank you so much for listening to the intermission fasting podcast Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor Relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors show notes and artwork By Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week

Welcome to Episode 443 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 443 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, Win, Wine, Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo Style Meals, Intermittent Doctor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarreConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 443 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barre Conrad. Barre, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey Mel, how's it going? I am good. I'm doing really well. It is a sunny morning here in Melbourne on a Saturday and it's been a packed day. I feel like it's already the middle of the day.

It feels like 3 p.m. for me. I've been up all morning doing some brand work and stuff like that, which means like content creation and things like that because part of my job is is doing that as well. So I've been doing that. But Mel, I went to a musical this week. This week just gone.

Melanie Avalon
I know what you went to. I saw the picture and I'm supposed to go, hopefully in a month. I don't have my tickets yet. You went to Kimberly, right? Kimbo?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. You go into that.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I was excited to talk to you about it. I want to. Didn't it win Best Musical, I think?

Barry Conrad
I think it did, but I have to say this production was so much fun, and it was directed by Mitchell Beattel, who's incredible. He's like an actor-director.

He actually directed the very first musical I did, which is called Violet. And yeah, it's a feel-good show, because it's based on this girl. She kind of has this, for audience, for listeners, that this girl, she has this rare genetic condition similar to sort of progeria, which makes your body age rapidly. So she's like 16 inside, but she looks and lives like a woman in her 60s. She's pretty intense, but it's just fun, and she falls in love, and it's sad as well. There's tears, there's laughing. It was really fun. You'll love it.

Melanie Avalon
That's a real condition, right?

Barry Conrad
It's sort of called, it's formerly Hutchinson-Gilford-Progerio syndrome, so it's a situation.

Melanie Avalon
And when people have that, do they die young as well?

Barry Conrad
Yes, and I don't want to give.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Well, I've, I've, yeah, no, no, no spoilers. Although I listened to the, I listened to it. Yeah, I'm just like thinking about what that would be like. That's wild.

Have we talked about this? Do you ever listen to musicals and you read the plot along so it's kind of like watching it?

Barry Conrad
No, I actually never do that. Do you do that?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. For like all the musicals I do. Like when the Tonys come out, like the top, you know, all the ones that are nominated, I go watch them in my head.

Barry Conrad
So you first listen and read them before you go so that you like know what's coming up.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so here's what you do. This is gonna be a new like hobby for you.

Okay, so you most of them on Wikipedia have the plot breakdown and they include when the when the musical numbers happen. So you so you like read the little bit of the plot and then it'll be like this song, it like says in parentheses, the song. So then you listen to the song, then you read the next little part of the plot, then you listen to the song. So it's like watching it.

Barry Conrad
I think you're, well not I think, I know you're the first person ever that I've met that does this.

Melanie Avalon
Really? Yes. That's so strange.

Barry Conrad
I'm sure there are people that I know that do it, but the first person that's told me that they do that.

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's funny because to me, I thought everybody would do that if they like musicals.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, wow, I didn't know that. Okay, well...

Melanie Avalon
It's really fun.

Barry Conrad
And I actually had no context going into this musical because Melbourne Theatre Company, who's producing Destiny, they are producing this one. That's why we went.

The cast went to it. Oh, cool. Yeah, so I had no idea what it was in for and that's kind of good. Like after a big day of rehearsal, just escape to this like surprise. So I was like really surprised.

Melanie Avalon
I'm trying to think we should switch because I should go to a show where I haven't done this before, which I have done before. But normally I watch it ahead of time, like I said, in my head.

So I should go to a musical blind and you should go to a musical having watched it in your head.

Barry Conrad
You know what, deal, let's do it. And also it kind of tracks that you do that because I know that you don't love surprise, like surprises.

Melanie Avalon
There's, okay, so the reason, well, I know I love, well, I don't like surprises. Okay. Surprises I don't like are people being like, hey, surprise, happy birthday. Here's a whole party and you're not dressed up. Like that's what I don't like.

But surprises if I'm in a safe space of watching a show is totally great. I love that actually.

Barry Conrad
And definitely not a surprise of people turning up to your apartment when you're, you know, just chilling out and, hey, Mel, can we have drinks and food? Like, no.

Melanie Avalon
Nope, nope. So yeah, but you should you should try this the re I started doing it because I wanted to Be what I wanted to see all the musicals, but I can't see all the musicals.

So you have to this is the way you do it and another reason is you know how like songs you like the more the more you hear them and

Barry Conrad
Definitely.

Melanie Avalon
So i get concerned because what if i'm going to a musical and what if it has a song in it that is gonna be my new future favorite song but i haven't heard it yet so the first time i hear it is when watching it so it's not gonna land as emotionally with me so i need to like prep myself and find the songs i really like and then listen to them a lot and then i get to experience it with anticipation of like the song is coming.

Barry Conrad
That's really I love that you're so into it. That's awesome. It's quite like you want it to be an experience for yourself, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. Here, here.

The next one I'm going to though, the next, wait, is that the next one? I'm going to the whiz and I actually have never listened to or seen the whiz. So I will not. And I will just go in.

Barry Conrad
Speaking of the Wiz, did we ever talk about Wicked cause you love, you like Wicked, right?

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes.

Barry Conrad
Did you see the movie? The film? What did you think of the film?

Melanie Avalon
It's like the best thing ever it's i think we have to talk to about it about it because i i dressed up like linda went to the theater.

Barry Conrad
That's right, we did talk about that, because I saw the trailer for the next one coming up. That's out? Well, it comes out like November, which I think could be now, depending on what time this comes out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. This airs October 13th. So I think it'll be in like a month, right? Cause it's, it comes out around Thanksgiving. Yeah. Yeah. We should go.

Barry Conrad
Well, did it actually really imagine that?

Melanie Avalon
being the same.

Barry Conrad
country. That'd be really cool.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's funny about that is it seems so much more approachable that we can do things now and the only, and the criteria is that we're in the same country, like that, that makes you seem so much, it seems so much more possible. Even though you're still really far away. So.

Barry Conrad
not too far away. Also, it's so funny because I was talking to my mom and she goes, it's just so different.

When I used to know that you would just like a hop and a skip across the ditch in Australia because it's so close to New Zealand. But now she's like, you live in New York now and it's just the comfort of not knowing that you're there. Yeah, it's different when you know someone's there, right?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Here's okay.

Here's something to kind of tie everything together what the the beginning and then what we just said now and all the things So i'm reading I just finished a book called 12 questions for love It's by this guy topaz adid adi I just learned how to say his name before I interview him adid adidas adiz is a It's by a guy named topaz He did this really cool film project that won I think like Emmys and went to Sundance Definitely went to Sundance. I won a lot of awards and um, he basically went around for a long time and he would have He would record couples having conversations and they would give them these 12 questions that they formulated that Help, I don't know deepen relationships and all the things spoiler the last question Is it the last question one of the last questions involves Like what would you say like what would you say to somebody? Like what do you really want to say to somebody? Um, the thesis was basically that we wait for really intense moments like When somebody's dying or when we're not going to see them again to say these really profound deep things We want to tell them and he makes the case we should be telling people things All the time and not like wait for really intense moments.

How do you feel about that? Whoa things got really deep

Barry Conrad
Yeah, real deep, real quick. No, I actually, funnily enough, when I was watching Kimberly or Kimbo, that's like a massive part of, you know, thematically what it's about. So it definitely, I agree, you know, like, why wait till if you know you have a time to, well, to be, to be fair, we all are, which sounds morbid, we're all dying every second, right?

Like, you know, like, it's, it's fine. So why? Just because we don't know the time, why do we wait? Like, why do we do that? I try to, really tell people how I feel. Maybe I don't always succeed, but I definitely try to live in the moment and try to, you know, compliment people or tell them how much they mean to me and things like that. I think why withhold that? I really think it's important. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree. I feel like I try to do that too. My question for him that I want to ask, and I have a lot of questions for him, and I'm going to be really, the whole book is about how we ask the wrong questions. So I'm going to be very self-aware of am I asking the right questions in this interview?

But in any case, it's like how big of declarations are these? And can you do those too much? You know, like, I don't know, I wonder if there's a difference between telling people how you feel and gratitude and things like that, versus these really intense things that we say for like people's deathbeds and when they're leaving and things like that. Like, can you say those too much though? Like maybe, you know, I want to know, I just want to think about it.

Barry Conrad
I do think that it's about reading the room and knowing the relationship you have with someone. If you're close enough to someone, if you count them like a real friend, which typically for me, I only like to have real friends. I mean, obviously there's acquaintances, but if someone's a friend, I'm not going to withhold. I think you're awesome.

You really bring a lot of meaning to my life. I love hanging out with you. We have such a good time. Things like that. I mean, I don't know how much more grand it gets unless you're in love with someone or someone professes their love for you or something like that, but I think there's nothing wrong with just read the room and tell people how you feel based on the temperature of your relationship and the depth of your relationship.

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I think we should have another podcast where we talk about where we do these sorts of topics.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think I think as well because it's so funny because when I left Australia, certain people, even just friends that maybe aren't as verbose or descriptive with your language, they really like confessed all these things to me about how they feel. I'm like, oh, thanks so much.

Not that it's insulting that they waited that long. It's just like, oh, I didn't realize that. Thank you. It really means a lot. Why do people do that?

Melanie Avalon
Why do people do it right before they leave? Or why do people not tell people?

Barry Conrad
You know, a lot of people do it right before you leave it.

Is it because you think it's like a sense of like, uh, finality, like you won't see them again or it's, it's so sad in a way, bittersweet.

It's nice and sad, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think so. I think it relates to what your mom was feeling where, you know, I think we take things for granted when they're right there, but when they're not going to be right there anymore, then we have all these realizations of how much it means to us.

Barry Conrad
Do you say things to, do you often tell people, quote unquote, deep things also like, what does deep mean? That's so interesting. We need.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I feel like like you I mean I feel like I tell people I mean a lot I mean I really value you I love our friendship and our hosting

Barry Conrad
Listeners, I will always say this about Melanie Avalon. She is so generous, not just as a person, but with her words, with her accent. She's just very thoughtful and it's not just because we're co-hosts. She genuinely is a great friend and just very, very, very, just a beautiful spirit.

And I think there's, you know, that's the kind of friends that you want in your life. People that are genuine, not just lip service or just like it's contextual or situational, you know? So, value too, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
I echo all of that back to you. That's something that I just have thought is so amazing about you for so long.

Yeah, how genuine you are and kind and real and you show up and committed and just a good human being. So, yes.

Barry Conrad
Love all around!

Melanie Avalon
Love all around. I know. Well, that was a deep opening to the show.

Barry Conrad
That's a deeper one, but a good one. And also this is, you know, hopefully this like emboldens you to do this. Tell someone today how you feel about them in a good way.

Melanie Avalon
I think I should start a new habit. How do you feel about this? What about every day? We just tell a random friend, not like a random stranger, but...

Barry Conrad
the store at Whole Foods, hey.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, think about it because they say that, okay, here's my thing. They say that a person can maintain what, around like 300 relationships at any one time. That's almost a year's worth of, although that might include people you don't want to reach out to.

But my point is once a day, you could reach out to somebody and just tell them how much they mean to you. If it wouldn't freak them out.

Barry Conrad
I think that's a great idea and that, you know, it's a good reminder. I want to do that. I'm going to do that today after we finish.

Awesome. I didn't ask you how you were, by the way. I'm great. Okay, good.

Melanie Avalon
I can catch you up more next week if you like. There's some things. Sounds good. Should we jump into some fasting related things?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump right in.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Okay, do you have a study to start us off with?

Barry Conrad
So I have a study this week and it's called the effectiveness of self-directed meal replacement assisted intermittent fasting in adults.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's a cool title.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it was carried out at the evidence-based medicine center, Department of Preventative Healthcare and Department of Clinical Nutrition in China, and their eight-week trial was published in the BMC Complementary Medicine and Therapies in 2025, so pretty recent. And the situation is that they recruited 126 adults, average age 35 and about three-quarters woman, all carrying a BMI of around 26.6 kgs per meter squared. So everyone had a stable weight history and signed up wanting a sustainable way to shed kilos, which a lot of people come to intermittent fasting for.

So the researchers split them into two groups. One was they followed a balanced calorie-controlled plant every single day, so roughly 1,000 to 1,400 calories of whole grains, lean proteins, fruit, and vegetables, and aimed for about 10,000 steps daily. So pretty simple. The other group did the same on most days, but on Tuesdays and Fridays, they swapped breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a powdered shake, totaling around 800 calories. So, you know, mix-up blend situation. On the non-shake days, they returned to the 1,400-calorie target and the 10,000-step encouragement, matching the first group. And the findings, Mel, was after four weeks, the shake and fast crew had lost an average of 5.1 kgs, about 6% of their starting weight, while the straight diet group, just eating whole foods, dropped roughly 2.8 kilograms or about 4%. So that early drop can sort of feel like a win on week one when the scales barely budge. So fast forward to eight weeks, and the shake group averaged about 6.6 kgs, lost around 8%, whereas the diet-only group sat around 4.1 kgs. So it's super interesting, because when the researchers modeled weight loss over time, they found that sticking with the plan week after week was the biggest drive of success. So in other words, whether you're having shakes or real meals, the underlying thing here is consistency was far more important than the specific strategy. The meal replacements did speed up on the early weeks, but steady effort kept both groups moving downward on the scale. So body composition data showed both groups lost fat mass and reduced visceral fat around the waste, which we love. And the shake and fast group saw a slightly greater percentage of fat loss, about 17%, compared to 15.5%, while preserving most of their lean muscle, which I love too. The balance matters because you want to keep strength and energy when you're losing weight, not just hollow out the muscle. And metabolic markers also improved more quickly in the meal replacement group. So fasting blood glucose, total cholesterol, triglycerides, and liver enzymes all trended downward with more magnitude, and both groups experienced healthier readings by week eight. So what does this mean for our listener's mouth, for example? If you're keen for an early win, maybe you've hit a plateau, or maybe you want to get a bit more momentum in that first month, maybe pairing fasting with some high protein balance shake could take decision fatigue out of some of your meals.

Barry Conrad
On the other hand, if you prefer whole foods and you're confident with that situation and can hit your calorie targets and macros without the shakes, that's still great too. And at the end of the day, whether you're blending a shake or plating up your animal protein, like Mel and I, the real superstar is the consistency.

So just keep showing up, stick into the plans, stay on the course. Mel, what do you think of this study?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so first of all, super cool that you found this. So to clarify, the group that was doing the Tuesday, Friday, quote, fasting, they were given a shake of 800 calories that day on those days?

And so were they, could they have it at any time throughout the day? Like was it a fasting window or was it just that on that day they were given an 800 calorie shake?

Barry Conrad
They didn't specify the time for that. They just said, on Tuesdays and Fridays, they swapped breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a powdered shake.

That sounds like it's just a non-fasting day then because breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, they so they were given the meal replacement shake and each serving was 47 grams of powder. So it was 200 calories ish, 12.3 grams protein, 26.1 grams carbs, 5.2 fat.

Okay, so I guess they were given it. So this is what's so interesting is the word fasting. And we've talked about this before in prior episodes, how people use word fasting to mean all different things. Because it looks like in this study, they were calling it like a five to intermittent fasting thing. And so the fasting days, the two days were really just a really low calorie 800 calorie day with made of shakes. So I okay, what I like about this is I like the some of the takeaways and I don't know if they pointed this out in the study or if this was you concluding this, but I do agree that having especially for people who are not seeing changes and are having a lot of decision fatigue about what to do, doing something like a super buttoned up shake, where it literally just locks you in to that low calorie day. I think that actually is can be really helpful for people, especially if they want to try this where they're having the two days with what doesn't really surprise me that much is that they did like lose more weight and everything because they were having two days where they ate, you know, a lot less calories than than the other group.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely. It's more controlled. I mean, those shakes are very, as you said, buttoned up. There's no guesswork.

So it's very much the same, whereas if they were doing different volume shakes each day, it'd be different again. So it is very controlled in those days, the shake days.

Melanie Avalon
They titled it, you know, self-directed meal replacement assisted intermittent fasting. So I, I wonder like what they were trying to prove, like that, that people do well with meal replacement shakes. You know?

Barry Conrad
I think what we wanted to compare will definitely says how much both of them both groups lost fat mass and visual fat which is really good and only that first week. Was the biggest step for the shake the shakers let's call them the shakers and then after that afterwards it sort of evened out towards the end.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, which I love that point as well, because this is actually a reason because people will say that you shouldn't do like really extreme diets and like short even short term, you know, like these, these fat loss protocols like doing extreme calorie restriction. Whereas I think for a lot of people having an initial win at the beginning can be very motivating.

Like some people need to like to get out of the rut that they're in, they actually need to do something extreme where they see, even if it's like water weight on the scale, where they see something that gives them momentum because inertia is everything. So if you're stuck in the inertia of not being able to make change, it's really hard to commit to a new pattern. And then on the flip side, in support of what you're doing, if you get a bigger whoosh at the beginning of weight loss, by doing something a little bit more quote extreme, that inertia can keep you going to, you know, stay on a new paradigm that continues to help you lose weight, even if it slows down.

Barry Conrad
I agree. And for example, Mel, I'm going to be doing a sort of aggressive cut after this weekend, personally, because by the time this airs, my play would have been done by then, but the character has got to be pretty lean.

He's 24 years old. He's a university student on the run. So I'm going to be doing a pretty aggressive cut after this weekend. I'm enjoying the trinkets this weekend, but after that I'm going to go mainly protein for this coming week only, and then kind of go low carb again after that. So it's going to be a challenging week, but it's just short term to drop that extra body fat and wait for the character.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so a few questions. One, right before you're gonna start it, are you gonna have like an all out feast?

Barry Conrad
Absolutely. So today, actually, after we finish recording, I'm going to today is going to be my feast day.

Melanie Avalon
day.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's a day.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And what are you going to, yeah, what are you going to, are you, are you going to have things like what are you going to have?

Barry Conrad
I'm just going to have whatever I want like I bought I got some pizza bases and I make some pizza maybe I'm going to have some chocolate I'm just going to have what I feel like having and I just have to remind myself that it's not an emergency if I if I forgo the things that I love for a short term. You know for a short time so it's for a reason so I'm I'm excited and also you know I love food so much I love my trinkets so it'll be interesting to see how I go mentally we'll see.

Melanie Avalon
And when you do the, the basically protein only, are you going to be eating like lean, like lean meat? Like what are you going to be? What do you think you're going to be eating?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to have lean meat for sure between five and ten percent, you know, fat, lean meat, chicken, beef, Greek yogurt, I'll do Greek yogurt as well, even though that has some fat in it because it's a lot of protein in their eggs. So I'm really going to, I'm going to go for it.

I haven't done this in a while, so, and also we have, yeah, it's full on days, so wish me luck and I'll keep you posted.

Melanie Avalon
It's kind of, it's so interesting to me because there is the missing of the, as you, you know, you say the trinkets and stuff. And at the same time, I like, I so love all those foods you just mentioned that I get excited at the idea of like just eating tons of lean meat. It sounds good.

So it's like you're like seeing changes, you know, at the same time. Wow. You have to, yeah, keep us updated. I will. Well, awesome. Fine. Any, any, are you going to have any days of protein of these meal replacement shakes?

Barry Conrad
Absolutely not. You know, I think it's great. It's great. If people want to have shakes, I'm all for that. For me, I just prefer to eat. What about email? I just like food, like eating food.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, if I had to choose between, I mean, think about this, like 800 calories of a shake compared to 800 calories of like chicken, I would be so starving with the shake. And the chicken, you can get a lot of chicken for 800 calories, even steak.

Yeah, I liquids don't fill me up. They just, they don't fill me up.

Barry Conrad
They just frustrate me.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, me too. Yeah, they're like the worst teas. I just can't. I cannot.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so the answer is no.

Melanie Avalon
I want to know though, listeners, do some of you guys get full on shakes? Cause I feel like some people, it works for them.

Barry Conrad
And to be clear, we're not slamming or hating on shakes at all. That's great if that works for you. It's just, we just prefer to sit down and feast away on and chew away on food.

Melanie Avalon
I actually even, this is really going down the rabbit hole tangent, so I apologize to listeners, but should I even say this? I have realized that I feel more, okay, because I love, as you know, eating my steak. And I love trying all different types, like grass-fed beef, and I also love bison. I love like Maui Nui, like I love red meats. And I like different cuts, but I really like lean cuts. I've realized that tougher cuts are more satisfying to me, because like a filet mignon, it just melts in your mouth. It feels much more easily digestible. I don't feel like I'm like working through it.

And so I have recently discovered, I think I might have told you about this, I have round steaks, which is a special, it's a certain cut from beef. And it's cut like a steak, it looks like a filet, it's super lean, probably even leaner than a filet, but it's actually really tough, but it's not fatty. So if you cook it right and like mash it with a hammer, you can tenderize it, but then it still requires work to like eat it and digest it. And I find it more satisfying.

Barry Conrad
You were telling me about this!

Melanie Avalon
I think I did, yeah. I don't think I mentioned that it was more satisfying though.

I think I was just trying it for the first time, but I've been I've been doing it now and I've decided it's more satisfying for me than a filet mignon.

Barry Conrad
Do you think it's the action of just chewing like the physicality of it?

Melanie Avalon
I think so. I think like, and this is why I thought about it, because with the shakes, there's something about just, even if it's the same amount of calories, not having to chew it and digest it and it just going straight into your stomach does not give me that full feeling, which actually next week I have a study about this a little bit, so.

Barry Conrad
Really? Oh, can't wait.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So how about you? Do you feel like if, if it's a tougher cut of steak, that it's more satisfying? Oh, I just like, yeah.

Barry Conrad
I like, in general, when I eat, I like to chew and, you know, like work my way through it. Not just, not like have a soup, like there's a time and a place for a soup.

I love soups, but when I'm eating, I want to really eat and just like, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly and I tried for the first time a bison filet mignon the other day and it was the most it was so delicious so tender but it was so tender that I was like I need more I need I gotta chew this more I need more. So listeners takeaways from this is maybe if you want to make your meals more filling I'm not saying to go by eye of round and and tough cuts of steak but favoring whole foods and things you actually chew probably the way to go there.

Okay, shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So the first question we have is Andy on Facebook says, love the podcast and I've listened to every episode. I've been IFing for about one year and it's been a game changer for me. I've never been truly overweight but was very inflamed and just felt sluggish and foggy prior to starting, even with working out. I love the energy and mental clarity from fasting.

I typically do anywhere from 16.8 to 22.2, depending on the day and what social activities I have going on. I have a number of autoimmune issues. So I have fully embraced the quote unquote health plan with a side of weight loss philosophy. I found myself having a glass of wine when I am a few hours into my fast. I only drink dry farm wines as I am obsessed, obsessed in capital letters and don't think I could ever go back to conventional wine. I'm not in denial that this is breaking my fast but I can't help but wonder how much is it really setting me back? Especially if it's low in sugar, is it just setting back the clock while I am metabolizing the alcohol? I also exercise mostly spin class, running and weights. So on that same token, how much does exercise speed up the process of getting into ketosis and obtaining those amazing benefits and all that energy? I can tell the next day after I have the wine that I don't kick into ketosis quite as early as usual but wondering if there's any science behind it. Thanks for all that you are doing to empower people through this way of life. Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome questions Andy. Okay.

So this actually made me think of something to ask you Barry. What was it? Oh my goodness Oh, I was gonna say you doing your Your protein only thing for how long did you say you're gonna be doing that?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to do like initially this week definitely straight the whole week and then the next week super low carb.

Melanie Avalon
So you know what you'll be cutting out? Well... Oh, wait. I don't actually... I don't know what you're about to say.

Barry Conrad
Are you about to say, are you going to cut out wine?

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I was assuming you're keeping that and are you cutting that out.

Barry Conrad
No, definitely not.

Melanie Avalon
we'll talk about that in the question. I was going to say nightshades. Remember how I think last episode or the episode before we were talking about nightshades?

Barry Conrad
Potatoes, yep.

Melanie Avalon
And I was saying like, what would it be like if you didn't have them? I wonder if you would notice anything.

Barry Conrad
Yes, like tomatoes and potatoes and stuff.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so you're gonna be cutting that out. Well, I thought about it because Andy was talking about cutting out, or how, and I don't know if it's a boy or a girl, so they were talking about how they cut out, or sorry, how they experienced reduced inflammation from fasting.

I was just thinking, I wonder if you'll notice anything from cutting out other foods that you might not realize. I'm just curious.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think regardless of whatever other carb, I think me sticking to mainly protein, it's good. I know having done this before, even after the first day, I'm going to drop a whole lot of water away, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I bet. Yeah, definitely. Okay. Well, we should talk about the wine.

So it works well, because Andy was asking about that. First of all, Andy, so happy that I have has been such a game changer for you. And that you're seeing all these, you know, benefits with the brain fog and feeling sluggish and, and the inflammation and the autoimmune conditions and all those things. So yay for that also yay that you love dry farm wines. We obviously love those around there around here they are, they're organic free of pesticides, lower alcohol, low sugar, listeners can get a bottle for a penny at dry farm wines.com slash if podcast. Okay, to answer your question about alcohol and fasting and is it setting you back. So there's a few different things here. Basically, when your body, when your liver is processing alcohol, alcohol in the priority list gets first priority. So when you have different macronutrients in your body, you know, fat, carbs, alcohol, protein, alcohol is what the liver immediately goes to to process. the liver is also responsible for creating ketones. So while it's processing alcohol, it's not going to be creating ketones, which would be from the fastest state. Of course, it wouldn't be doing that anyways in the fed state, but that does stop that process. And then on top of that, this is really interesting, alcohol actually depletes glycogen, liver glycogen, which is the stored form of carbs in the liver. So there's a little bit of an irony here in that, yes, by having the alcohol, that does add, quote, some time because now your body is going to shut off whatever ketone production it was doing. It's going to process the alcohol. It's going to focus on that before really processing your food. So that could elongate the amount of time that you enter the next day. Interestingly enough, the alcohol possibly depleted more liver glycogen than you would have without it. So you might, once you get through that elongated entrance to the fasted state, more quickly enter the fasted state because of the depleted liver glycogen. I'm not going to say it's going to make you enter fasting sooner. I'm just saying it has a really interesting relationship with liver glycogen. So yes, it probably will extend your entry into the fast the next day, which you said you realized because you said that you said you can tell the next day that you don't kick into ketosis quite as early. The reasoning will be for all the things I just discussed. As far as can you have this, how much is it really setting you back? There's so much context here because I think oftentimes people add alcohol or wine or whatever they're drinking to their diet and then they might not make as good food choices along with that. And so the question is, was it the alcohol that was the problem really setting you back or was it the changes in what you were eating with alcohol that was setting you back? If you are, and this is my, just from what I've researched over the years and years and years, studies pretty much, it's interesting because women specifically when they add especially wine to their diet, that's correlated to weight loss.

Melanie Avalon
That could be because women tend to replace what they're eating with what they're drinking rather than making it an add-on. If you are, as far as is it setting you back, I would just look at the literal real results of what you're experiencing. Are you not losing weight like you want to? Do you know as if you look at what you were experiencing and then what do you experience when you add the alcohol and what do you experience when you remove it? I don't think it automatically sets you back massively.

There's also, if you're drinking dry from wines, you're drinking really polyphenol rich wine and quite a few compounds in wine have actually been linked to fat loss and burning fat. There's a compound in wine called PCA-tanol for example, it's a polyphenol and it's been shown, this is in rat studies, but it's been shown to actually inhibit the formation of new fat cells. There are other polyphenols in wine which may be contributing to a beneficial inflammatory state and a fat burning state. And then on top of that, alcohol itself may have a thermogenic effect and actually make you burn a little bit more calories. So I said a lot there, but basically you really just have to see what you're experiencing and is it something that you want to tweak and see how it affects you? I know for me, I can and I could historically lose weight. I have lost weight, a lot of weight historically and I was drinking all during that. I didn't cut out wine. That was not something I ever really cut out to lose weight. I focused more on the food choices and making healthy food choices and doing the fasting. That's because that's what works for me and that's what I like. So you have to find what works for you and what you like. Before we get into the second one, Barry, dying to know your thoughts. Also, you can elaborate on why or why not you would cut out wine while you're doing a cut.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's so interesting. And this is a great question, Andy. Back in the day when I was really into the bodybuilding side of things, like just the not doing bodybuilding, but just like the techniques and getting ready for shoots and stuff like that. I know that drinking red wine was this hack that people would talk about to dehydrate you before shoots and things like that. So I don't do that anymore. Or I don't really know if that's even works that well. But I mean, I've never really, the only time I cut out wine is when I'm preparing for a test, like blood test or stuff or something like that, or something medical. But other than that, I drink pretty regularly. If I have something on the next morning, early, I typically won't maybe drink too late. I do definitely agree with you, Andy, that I feel that I enter ketosis later in the next day, for sure. Like today, for example, I feel like I'm not quite kicking. I don't feel the same because I drank last night quite late. So I agree there. But I'm not going to cut out wine completely. I may limit my wine, be mindful of it rather than drink too much of it. But it's definitely not something I'm willing to give up during this cutting phase.

Melanie Avalon
I think it makes it much more bearable too. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
I can still have my meat and my wine, you know, it's like I still feel like I'm feasting.

Melanie Avalon
It's kind of like honestly like I think the original carnivore diet there was that diet it was like let me find it It was like it was basically you like drank and ate meat

Barry Conrad
That's a thing? Well, that was the origins of it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes.

Barry Conrad
I do think that even now, colloquially, a lot of people still believe, and I talk to so many people about this, and they're like, yeah, I'm trying to cut back wine because I just gained weight, and it's not the wine, it's what you have with the wine, and that's something that people still don't really understand. They think the wine is making them fat.

It's usually what people might eat alongside that. That's what I really think that.

Melanie Avalon
I agree and it's interesting. I actually was recording an episode this week and the topic of alcohol came up and the person said that anybody who tries to defend the health benefits of wine or alcohol is an alcoholic. And I was like, that's a big jump. That's a big thing to say.

And I think it's just such a sensitive topic and people have different relationships with it that it can be hard to look objectively at what actually is doing what in the context of things. Because I think the biggest factor is the food that you're eating. I don't know why I can't find this diet. There was some diet, there was like a book written, I think it was like in the 1800s and they basically, you basically like ate meat and like drank alcohol. And that was like the weight loss diet.

Barry Conrad
I'll be doing the diet mel i'll be doing i'll be full.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I did that basically for quite a while, a while ago. Andy also wanted to know, with exercise, spin class, running weights, how much does exercise quote speed up the process of getting into ketosis? That one I can much more confidently answer, which is yes. So exercise is definitely going to help you get into ketosis faster.

It is true that if you're doing really, really high intensity exercise that actually is, it's fueled more by carbohydrates. It's a different energy system in the body, and it actually can turn off that burning. So that's something to keep in mind. So if you really want to expedite the process into the facet state, and you probably don't want to be doing a lot of high intensity exercise only, you would want to do something like high intensity interval training, where you're doing short bursts of high intensity exercise, because that's going to help deplete that glycogen pretty quickly. But it's not going to turn off your fat burning system, if that makes sense. But doing moderate exercise, definitely doing things like weights, all of this movement is definitely going to help you get into the whole state faster. You're going to burn through glycogen faster with cardio. With strength training, you're going to increase your insulin sensitivity. It's also going to help promote your muscle while fasting. So that's good. That's going to help just everything in general. So yes, yay, team exercise. I just wouldn't do only high intensity cardio only. I would do moderate, low and a blend with strength training. How about you, Barry?

Barry Conrad
I 100% agree with this and Melanie actually speaking on that at the moment I don't know if you've seen but on instagram and tiktok there's this trend of if it's a trend but. A lot of these pts are saying what people think burns fat and they'll split the screen and on the one side of the screen is people sprinting. And running for miles and miles and miles and the other side of the screen is people walking on an incline. Just walking and they say the walking burns more fat rather than just like high intensity.

You know what I mean so it's really interesting that that that's this new thing right now so that speaks to what you're saying about if you're just doing a high intensity all the time it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to. You know go into katosas quickly.

Melanie Avalon
And not only does it, and I'm glad that social media is catching up to this idea, but not only does it not burn fat, it actually turns off that system. It kind of locks you into a glycolytic state where you are preferring to burn carbs rather than fat.

So doing that lower exercise or lower intensity exercise like zone two is definitely the way to go to burn fat. With the exception, like I said, that high intensity interval training, those short bursts, you're actually going to get max benefit there without the problems of locking you into that state and turning off that burning.

Barry Conrad
Melanie, I think it's also, I really believe it also ties back into the whole paradigm or thought that people think, you know, the more effort you put in, the more calories you're burning because it's calories in, calories out, it doesn't work like that. It's not just calories.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And it doesn't have to be that hard.

If you're smart and you know how to hack your biology with things like fasting, like timing of food, the food choices you make, the type of exercise you do, you don't actually have to suffer that much to move toward... You don't even have to suffer, I don't think, if you do it right to move towards, say, the body composition you want. And then I was gonna make a joke, I was gonna say, and throw in like a GLP1 agonist and now you're off to the races.

Barry Conrad
I do think even Andy, for me, I do 35 minutes of weight training three times a week, and then I do the treadmill on an incline for maybe 30 to 35 minutes, not fast, just walking. And that's it.

I'm not out there trying to die and sprint my brain off. You know, I do hill sprints, like short bursts, but I don't run for miles and miles and miles. I just don't. And you look...

Melanie Avalon
amazing!

Barry Conrad
Well, that's very kind. Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
I can never say the phrase. What is it? You walk, you walk the walk, you don't just talk the talk. I try. All right. Well, speaking of, shall we break our proverbial fast? Let's do it.

Barry Conrad
I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon
I'm excited because last time I was bringing the restaurant, I couldn't find the menu because it wasn't up yet and I now have it. So let me get it.

Barry Conrad
I'm excited for this.

Melanie Avalon
I just realized it's a chain, but it's like fancy chain. Have you been to a bourbon stake before?

They're in Charlotte, Delray, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Nashville, New York, Orange County, Scottsdale, DC, and then their new location, Orlando.

Barry Conrad
I have not yet, but I do know of, I have seen this place online, not, not the specific one like menu, but I do know of it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I was going to do the new one because one of my favorite restaurants at Disney World used to be Shula's, also a chain, like a nice fine dining steakhouse at the Swan and Dolphin. It's at the Dolphin Hotel, and now it got replaced with Bourbon Steak, which is run by Chef Michael Mina. He has a lot of awards. I think he has Michelin stars, I believe.

Should we do the one in Orlando, or should we do the one in New York, because you could actually go?

Barry Conrad
I think you should choose the one that you want to go to.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder if it's the same menu.

Barry Conrad
Because which one's the newer one? Because the one if the newer one is a bit more festive and has new additions, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Just open so we can do that. That's the one in Disney World.

Barry Conrad
which is very Melanie coded, there we go.

Melanie Avalon
why I picked it. Like I said, it's replacing.

And this is really cool. So this speaks to a restaurant that clearly had, I think, a good environment because I read that the previous staff that was at Shula's, they all stayed. And they're the staff at this new restaurant. Isn't that cool?

Barry Conrad
That says a lot about the management of the restaurant.

Melanie Avalon
They said it was 100% retention of the staff.

Barry Conrad
Wow, that's amazing. So I just sent you the Orlando. So I'm looking at the dinner menu right now. It's loading. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I see things that I like already.

Melanie Avalon
too. Okay. Oh my goodness. The first thing on the menu.

Barry Conrad
Exactly. I think you tagged me. There was one of the people on Melanie's Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon
I did, yes.

Barry Conrad
Was talking about cuz i think your question on is like what's your favorite meal something like that and they said raw oysters and other things and Melanie was like. What's good about that i think she tagged me and i said like it's the best thing what's not to love about something like that it's like yes someone backs me up finally.

Melanie Avalon
blows my mind, blows my mind. So well, here we are.

So bourbon steak, and let me just read about it really quickly. It's an ode to the traditional steakhouse, celebrates the details that make meals memorable from perfect seers, tableside, old fashioned, to shared sides, milestone moments. Again, it's that acclaimed chef. And yeah, and the new one is at the Dolphin at Disney World. So to start things off, and apparently, because I've been reading reviews of the one at Disney World, apparently instead of bread service berry, they bring out three different french fries and three different sauces.

Barry Conrad
Let's go. That sounds awesome. I love that idea.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'll hear I can tell you exactly what they bring up because I have the article. It was, so they bring out a medley of truffle aioli fries with a truffle aioli, regular herb fries with regular ketchup and then paprika fries with housemade bourbon barbecue sauce.

Barry Conrad
Oh man, that sounds amazing. I want that right now. I know. And you can have them all. That's such a good idea. Have you ever heard of a restaurant bringing out fries instead of bread service?

Melanie Avalon
No, but this actually reminds me of a restaurant I'm going to do in the future that relates to this. That's in LA. I'm going to make a note. Maybe I'll do that next time.

Okay. What would you like to start?

Barry Conrad
I'm definitely gonna go for the shellfish platter, which has oysters on the half shell, chef's ceviche, half main lobster, shrimp cocktail trio of sauces. We have to do caviar as well, right? Gotta do it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, definitely. And I want the Oh, they have king crab. I think I like the shellfish potter too, but just the lobster and the shrimp.

Barry Conrad
I can have the rest.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. With a trio of sauces. And you can have all the oysters.

Barry Conrad
There's also the cells and appetizers, so that's like a different compartment in my stomach, so we need to go to the cells and appetizers for the second part of the beginning situation.

Melanie Avalon
What are you going to get from this?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to forgo the salad because I feel like I want the room for the fries. I'm going to do the bacon wrapped scallops with Bing cherry turnip Marcona almond Madera and illusion.

I've never heard of a bacon wrapped scallop before, have you? Wait, really? No, just like scallops.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's very common here.

Barry Conrad
Oh, is that an Americanism?

Melanie Avalon
I guess so. This is so interesting.

It's so interesting things I wouldn't... I don't know if it's American, but I guess it's not Australian. Yeah, that's very much a thing here. It's so good too. And it's perfect as an appetizer because I eat a lot of scallops, so I don't like to get it as an entree. But in an appetizer version with bacon, yes.

Barry Conrad
But I'm trying to picture milk is because scallops are quite tender. So the bacon would need to like tenderly be wrapped around. Like, how does it work? How does it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, they just do it. Yeah, they just do it.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what are you going to have? What looks good to you?

Melanie Avalon
I also want the bacon wrap scallops. So maybe, maybe we can share or get, wait, what's the other one?

Oh, that's truffle. Yeah. Or maybe the tuna tartare, but I, yeah, maybe the tuna tartare. I just get nervous about the mercury, but, and then for the actual meal,

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, this looks amazing. Oh, wow. I'm looking, uh, I'm going to have to go with, uh, the strip, the a five strip line specialty cut from Japan.

Melanie Avalon
You know, that's not a lot of meat. It says it's four ounces.

Barry Conrad
So if I, oh yeah, it's not going to be that big. I'd like to get like a side of that.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, I think the, nevermind. I think the price is per four ounces. Maybe it's I'm unclear available in four ounce increments. I don't know.

Maybe that means they, they charge that for every four ounces. That's an expensive state.

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to scrap that one rewind. I'm going to go, I'm going to do a, the wag you SRF rib cap.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Do you like do you like fattier? Have you have wagyu?

Barry Conrad
Is this why do you think that's more fatty?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's it's like really fatty. It's that that it's it's like actually it's not as much saturated fat, but the wagyu Stakes are really they're like raised to be really really fatty

Barry Conrad
Your reaction is really fun. It's just like hmm. You like

Melanie Avalon
Well, I just don't I don't I always feel like you don't like fatty as much but I feel like

Barry Conrad
Which one of those do you think would be like the biggest and the smallest.

Melanie Avalon
probably the porterhouse, which would be a strip and a filet. Yeah, the porterhouse, because you would get a strip and a filet.

Barry Conrad
I'll do that one.

Melanie Avalon
perfect. And then I think I, I love a good center cut filet mignon, not cooked, preferably blue. And I'm trying to think if I would, because I'm probably still going to be hungry. I think I would get, yeah, I think I would get the, the center cut filet mignon and then for dessert, I know what I'm going to get to fill me up.

I might add, I might add something to it too. You can add grilled prawns maybe. That's Australian language. Yeah, it actually really is. Yeah, we don't, because that's shrimp, right? Or is it different?

Barry Conrad
Exactly. I would get a bourbon steak sauce over my porterhouse and I don't think I'm going to get any sides because we're getting those fries and by the time we get this main situation, probably would have gone through two or three servings of fries.

Melanie Avalon
that's highly likely. Yeah. How would you get it cooked?

Barry Conrad
Medium rare, not too medium on the rare side.

Melanie Avalon
Sounds good. Okay, should we look at the dessert menu?

Barry Conrad
Let's fast forward. There's a lot. There's other things there, but I feel like I'm happy with my choice.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yeah, the rest is, it's like fish and chicken and then sides, right?

Barry Conrad
Let's do this dessert menu, what do they have?

Melanie Avalon
For dessert, I'm going to have whatever from the appetizer, like the medley that I like the most. So if it was like the shrimp cocktail, if it was the lobster, I'm going to get like another round of that. That's my dessert.

And that comes from the cold part, not the warm kitchen. So they won't hate me as much.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to do there's a couple things that I'm going to do the bourbon steak chocolate bar, which is peanut butter crunch, chewy chocolate brownie, as well as the brûlée Basque cheesecake, which is roasted Harry strawberries, Grand Marnier turbinado crunch that looks pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting that they have a chocolate bar. I don't really normally see that before, you know. Are you gonna get an after-dinner beverage?

Barry Conrad
I sure am. Let's go to, what do we got here? There's dessert wine. Oh, there's a wine list. Let me get a, let's first go to the cocktails. So beverages, hmm. I'm gonna go bourbon steak, old-fashioned. You know, I like to try the specialties of the establishment, so I'll try one of those.

And then I'll also get a, like a good red wine, like a good, cause they're eating a bit of meat there. So maybe some Pinot Noir, the 2022 Bell, glass, Clark telephone, Santa Maria, California, Pinot Noir. What about you, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I would have to look through. So they have a massive by the bottle list. So this would be a situation where I'm doing my whole research and because I am sure on this massive list that they have something I like, which would be, you know, European, probably French, lower alcohol, lower sugar, maybe a cab prong, maybe a pinot. They do actually have a wine by the glass that says it's organic. So that's cool.

It actually says on the menu, they don't normally, you know, say that I feel confident I could find something awesome. And then this would be in the most magical, one of my favorite places in the world, the in the Swan and Dolphin Hotel.

Barry Conrad
So good. How long do you reckon we, Mel, when we finally do eat together, how long do you think we need our reservation to be?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, the thing is, here's the thing. I like eating later. I don't know. We're going to be there a while. I think I feel like we'll be there like four hours.

Barry Conrad
I reckon so. We'll just be eating, drinking, eating, drinking.

Melanie Avalon
at least three will be that table like that table, that annoying table that won't leave.

Barry Conrad
Table twenty two still going can you just please take over I have to go.

Melanie Avalon
I'll be like talking to servers like you guys you guys can close out like we can a different server the closer can take Us now if you need I Won't take it personally. I know the lingo.

I know the lingo You can do your side work and like do we can go ahead and pay so you can do your paperwork and the closer can take us Man awesome awesome. Well, this was super fun. Yay, and it's so fun because it's like a celebratory night where you're gonna eat all the things

Barry Conrad
I know I'm so this is getting me ready for it too I'm getting inspired by all these.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I love it. Awesome, awesome.

Well listeners, friends, thank you so much for all your questions and all the things. These show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 443. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can submit your own questions. You can email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are ifpodcast, I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
That's all the things we just want to say that we really appreciate each and every one of you listening and taking time out of your day to spend with us. So thank you so much and we'll catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
I know, right? We really appreciate you guys telling you now. Awesome. Well, I will talk to you next week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

Welcome to Special Guest Episode 442 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

Dr. Nayan Patel is a sought after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. He has been working with physicians since 1999 to custom develop medication for their clients and design a patient specific drug and nutrition regimen. He has been the pharmacist of choice to celebrities, CEO’s and physicians themselves.

He recently published his first comprehensive book, “The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy.” After more than a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione, Dr. Patel finally shares how powerful and essential glutathione is to the body’s detox system. He speaks about the various benefits it has with slowing the aging process down, and explains how you can increase your levels naturally. Dr. Patel is a firm believer in providing the body with tools it needs to defend itself and promote a healthy lifestyle that fits the pace of the modern world.

Nayan Patel, Pharm.D is globally regarded as the foremost go-to expert on absorbable forms of glutathione, and holds the only patent on transdermal glutathione. In addition to many other topics such as cellular function and hormone replacement, Patel is a highly sought after global authority on the critical role in that glutathione, and all other antioxidants and endogenous molecules play in the body. Along with traveling the world educating practitioners on advanced biochemistry and anti-aging science, Dr. Patel also serves as adjunct faculty at the University Of Southern California School Of Pharmacy where he is also an alumnus.

He is currently a licensed compounding pharmacist that is still involved in designing and compounding drugs and nutrition therapies for his patients that includes athletes, CEO’s, highly stressed actors, physicians themselves and the community where he has practiced for 27 years. Besides being a pharmacist, CEO, and leader, he is a father to his three kids, husband to his supportive wife and a son to his dad who is the inspiration to help heal the world.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 442 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 442 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with such a special guest. Friends, I am so excited about this conversation. So this fabulous guest I have actually had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice now, and I have met him and hung out with him multiple times at multiple conferences. He just happens to be one of my favorite humans in, I mean, this whole sphere. And that is Dr. Nayan Patel. I first met him when I read his book, and it is called The Glutathione Revolution, Fight Disease, Slow Aging, and Increase Energy. And friends, when it comes to our health and wellness, we talk a lot about antioxidants. And you might have heard, I mean, I feel like most people have heard of glutathione, you know, and you might be doing things like getting IVs even, or taking, you know, supplement forms, or, you know, trying to boost your glutathione levels. And there is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to what is the best way to actually support and boost glutathione in your body because it is our master antioxidant. And especially friends, when it comes to things like fasting and diet and fitness, antioxidants are so key to feeling well during everything and not only feeling well, but really optimizing your life. And I now honestly, so I read the book, I learned all about what glutathione actually is, how it functions in the body, how you actually can increase it. And I started using Dr. Patel's transdermal form of glutathione. I use it every single night of my life. And I have now for years, that is a true statement. And on top of that, I also use some of his skincare products, which are incredible for your skin. Prepare to have your mind blown because this is going to be just an epic conversation. So Dr. Patel, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Well, thank you very much for having me here today. I appreciate the introduction.

And I'm glad that your audience is savvy and they're looking to improve their health. And I appreciate this. I can't believe this is a 4 and 20 second episode and your audience is still here. So that means you have some great information. And I'm glad to be here as a messenger for the Health and Wellness Journey.

Melanie Avalon
I think now we've seen each other maybe at maybe three conferences and it's always like super hectic and I feel like we always like squeeze it in like one of us is leaving but it happens every time I do see you and also fight on because you I forget you you taught at USC or went to USC.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So I didn't do my graduate school at USC and I'm still have edging faculty over there as well.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, so I have so many questions for you. It's exciting because I pulled out all my old notes from when you've come on before and I have so many notes here.

So glutathione, a little bit about your personal story. When did you realize that you were going to become the glutathione guy and how do you feel about that?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Boy, you know when you grow up as a kid, no one wants to be a glue with iron guy They want they would be an astronaut. They want to be they want to conquer the world They want to be a doctor They would have been something something very very nice and cool, but not a glue with iron guy for sure And that was not my dream either But you know what I I learned something differently if you keep your arms open and in your heart open The universe will guide you to what's necessary and what's what what people want And I thought I was guided towards working on this molecule by I don't know who but anyways I was guided to to work on to bring this to the To the world and hopefully they can experience the power of what glue time does inside a body Naturally, and so I thought this journey back in the late 90s early 2000 When I was hired to work on actually like liposomal vitamin C And they thought the vitamin C is the next the best antioxidant that ever existed so can we make it better and so I started doing some research and I found out wait a second Glutathone is by far the most powerful antioxidant ever body produces.

Why are we talking about glutathione and The doctor that hired me told me oh, no, that's too hard to work with so let's just stick to vitamin C So I did his project but on the side. I said wait a second Why is this so hard and so that was my first introduction to bring something in the marketplace back in the late 90s early 2000 and The rest as I say is history because all you can do is once your heart gets into something to work on We discovered a stable form of glutathione in seven years.

So by 2007, we already have a stable molecule It was able to get through your skin inside your cell the cell membrane took me another 13 or 14 more years to do research to figure out how much to give you how often to Give you how long can I give it to you for? Am I gonna get results results repeatedly if you take it for five ten years in a row? Is it gonna get better and better every single time? And so I had a lot of questions and not enough answers in the world So I said I'll do my own research and eventually by 2021 We were able to release the product of the to the public in the mid in the middle of the pandemic So that's my story

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

So many things here. So interesting about, you know, them saying glutathione was too difficult to study. And then, you know, you worked for years and years to get this form that we can get into our body. Something I learned in your book, actually, is so glutathione, is it the second most abundant molecule in our body?

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right, next to water. That's crazy. It is, and the thing is, we don't even make water, we drink water.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I mentioned in the introduction, like this word, antioxidants, and you've mentioned vitamin C now, glutathione, for listeners, because I think people hear antioxidants and they think, oh, like good things that, you know, help us.

So how do antioxidants actually function in the body? And in particular, what is the difference between, because you just mentioned we don't, we drink water, we don't, you know, create it. What is the difference between antioxidants that our bodies naturally create versus taking them in through food and supplements and things like that.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely. So that's a great question. I think there's like three or four questions in there, and I'll try to get everything into like one example. So hopefully everybody gets the whole picture of it.

But when you look at antioxidant, there's lots of fruits and vegetables and vitamins in the marketplace today that claims to be an antioxidant. At the end of the day, there are only three ways to reduce oxidation in our body. Now, the reason we need antioxidants is because our body is exposed to oxidation every single second. Because you breathe oxygen, when the oxygen gets inside your body, if it's not getting used up, the excess oxygen is actually producing oxidation to your body. When the oxidation inside your body increases to a point where your body can neutralize those oxidation, it becomes oxidative stress. And that oxidative stress leads to all kinds of diseases.

But that's a stick on the oxidation part. And so what's the big deal about oxidation? I'll give you a simple scenario. If you just take a piece of nail, an iron nail that you get it from your local hardware store, if you put some water droplets on there and put it outside in the sun, within a few days, it will get rusted, right? And once it gets rusted, that's it. And if you don't do anything about it, then eventually the whole thing will just become powder and it's gone, right? And so the whole process is called oxidation. So the oxidation is happening inside our body all the time. Either we breathe oxygen or the oxidative components that are introduced inside our body because of chemical reactions that happens every single second in our body. All those leads to oxidation and will lead to oxidative stress eventually.

So antioxidants is what we need to neutralize those parts. And that's one of the reasons why we body produces so much glutathione because it's the master antioxidant our body produces. And by the way, there's only three or four things our body produces that are considered as an antioxidant. One is glutathione. I'll put them in bucket number one. The bucket number two is the body produces three enzymes, which is catalase is one of them. Superoxide dismutase is SOD. By in short, I believe there's a major skincare company that uses SOD as their flagship product to deliver as an antioxidant. And the third product is glutathione peroxidase enzyme is GPX for short. So these three enzymes are basically are components that helps reduce oxidative stress. And I put them in bucket number two. And the bucket number three is all the antioxidants that you take from outside sources, like vitamin C. Our body does not produce vitamin C. We take it from the fruits and vegetables that we eat. Vitamin E, CoQ10, the juices that you drink and the pills you take. I mean, there's so much things that's out of the bucket number three.

And I'm going to tell you something really, really profound right now. That is bucket number one, which is glutathione. Glutathione by itself is more powerful than bucket number two and three combined.

Dr. Nayan Patel
And so I just want to make people understand that part that if you only have one chance, one chance to get yourself healthier, are you going to put yourself in antioxidants from outside sources like any carrot juice and orange juice and things like that? Or are you going to put all your faith into one molecule which is glutathione?

Which me, personally, of course, is glutathione because it's by far the most strongest one, the most powerful one, the most abundant molecule producing your body that will deal with all these problems for us.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I see friends. This is why I love this conversation because we are actually getting the information on antioxidants. I have so many questions.

I have a very random, just really quick question to ask because I was contemplating this actually last week. When you go and you look at the steaks at the store and they're red and then some are turning brown or you have them, you bring them home and then they turn brown, my understanding is that the steak oxidized. Is that correct?

Is that why it turned brown?

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's exactly right.

Melanie Avalon
So is that, this was the question that I have. If you still eat some of the steak that had turned brown, does that have a problematic ingredient in it for your health since it's oxidized?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So there are a few components in there. You're not eating steak for antioxidants. You're eating steak for amino acids. There's a bunch of protein in there. There's a monosylic topping down into various amino acids. And that's what you're eating the steak for.

The top layer that is getting oxidized, it's the tissue that's getting oxidized. Is it bad for you to eat oxidized food? Kind of. But the thing is, the majority of the food that you're eating on the steak is inside, not the top layer of it. So the grand scheme of the whole thing is not a bad thing. Keep in mind, whenever you cook any meats, any meats, the top layer is going to get oxidized anyways, always. Because it is going to oxidize. So the top layer of all the meats is what we call them is advanced glycation end products, A-G-Es, or in short form, H. And guess what the advanced glycation end products do to you? They make you age faster. So A-G-Es are not good for you. In moderation, their body can deal with it. As long as you have enough glue or thion, they will neutralize those A-G products out of your system and you go back to normal. But eating a lot of those foods is definitely a problem. The number one food has the highest amount of A-G-Es in there, is guess what?

Melanie Avalon
while protein reacted with sugar, right? So, I mean, I don't know. I hope it's not cooked meat.

Dr. Nayan Patel
because it is the very high temperature and very short amount of time. They try to zap every single thing with a very high temperature and that that pizza has the highest amount of AGEs or advanced glycation end products in them.

Now of course if you have home-good pizzas that you do a low temperatures and different story but I'm talking about store-bought pizzas that's the same thing. So going back to your steak if it's out at the top part is brown I'll rather not have that but you know what the grand scheme is not as bad as you think it is.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much. This question has been haunting me. I said last week, that's when I was really pondering it. But honestly, for years, I think it, I think it every time. So thank you.

Little thing about the AGEs. It's just funny to me because I always assumed that it just was a coincidence that AGE, like that advanced glycation in product, that that was the acronym, but they actually purposely, it was purposeful. I think I want to, I've heard something about this. Like they actually called it that in part because it made that acronym. So the science community has their, their, their humor, I guess.

Question about the timeline because you just mentioned how there's these three different groups of antioxidants and, you know, glutathione way surpasses its potential of the second two groups. And that, that third group is the one I think most people think of with antioxidants because they're thinking of fruits and, you know, different foods that have vitamin C and vitamin E and all these antioxidants that we often think of a reason this may be a good thing. And it's going to, that will be answered in part with my question is what is the, the timeline of all of these different antioxidants and the body, the curiousness I have here, especially with the intermittent fasting podcast audience is, you know, when people are doing their fasting, we do a lot of water only fasting here. So it's not like people are going to be drinking fruit juices for antioxidants during their fast. So how does it play out when people are fasting and detoxing and needing these antioxidants and using up antioxidants, where are they coming from?

What's the timeline? So like how, how do we keep glutathione like going during our fast? If we ate antioxidants the night before, are they still around during the fast? How does that all work?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So to produce glutathione, we need three amino acids, glycine, glutamine, and cysteine. So cysteine is one of those amino acids that is not abundantly following most diet. So if you just put in a furious search engine, cysteine-rich foods. And so as long enough cysteine coming from your diet on a daily basis, you could not eat for a whole day, and your body has enough cysteine to keep on producing this glutathione for the rest of the day, not a problem whatsoever.

So we just have to make sure there's enough basic components that it needs to produce its own glutathione as it demands increases. Now when the intermittent fasting people has lived a different story because what they're triggering is autophagy or senescent cells. What's triggering is that, hey, it's trying to get rid of all these dead cells, zombie cells that could be high in inflammation and low in any kind of energy source. So you want to try to get rid of it. And so that's what the IF community was all begun with, is to increase that component. But having to produce glutathione, I mean, you can fast for a couple of days and your body still has the ability to produce its own glutathione on a regular basis as long as there's enough cysteine to die because cysteine stays in the body for a little bit longer time. I can tell you another thing because this was interesting to me when I first started doing my research in glutathione is because they were injecting this glutathione into the blood and initially they got the results. Then there was no results for a while, like for six hours or so, and they said the results again. And it says, why there was a gap? What they found out was when you inject glutathione, the body sees glutathione as a protein, that's like three amino acid chain protein. What does the body do with the protein? It chops it down into various amino acids. It does not absorb any proteins whatsoever or a peptide, whatever. So the body was chopping it down and the chopped up item was, it was chopping it down between five to 20 minutes, something like that, very short on time, it was all gone. The chopped up material was actually cysteine. So cysteine was reabsorbed into the bloodstream. And so they saw three or six hours later, there was a sudden increase of cysteine in the blood and that cysteine was actually being used to make your own glutathione naturally. So what I'm saying is that for your patients, for your community, that is fasting, as long as the diet has some sort of cysteine in there, the body will store it and use it to produce its own glutathione as it needs.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And what I think is such a paradigm shift here for people is again, I think when people think antioxidants, the general bucket, they mostly think fruits and vegetables, like that's what they think they need to get.

And now we're talking about how glutathione is our master source of antioxidants and it's created from protein, not these fruits and vegetables.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right. And the thing is, okay, so we just talked about antioxidant melanin, but I think the audience needs to know that if the body produces so much glutathione, is their job is only to be an antioxidant? That's it? It's just one job, right? If we produce so much of this molecule inside the body, and by the way, the body has a system to recycle, because guess what? If the glutathione neutralizes a free radical, it itself gets oxidized. An oxidized molecule basically becomes trash, right? There's no use for it.

But the body has a system built into it where it recycles this glutathione. It accepts energy from sun and other molecules that you eat, and it becomes reduced again. So again, it becomes an antioxidant. Just to give you an example, I'm going to give you an example. You take vitamin C. Vitamin C is the number one antioxidant sold in the world today, and I'm about to tell you something that is absolutely profound. Vitamin C as a chemical is not an antioxidant. It is actually a pro-oxidant, yes, it's actually a pro-oxidant. But the thing is, at low concentration, vitamin C actually provides the energy to access form of glutathione and revives them back to normal to make it a reduced form of glutathione that can be used as an antioxidant again.

Melanie Avalon
That's mind-blowing. So you're saying the benefits, the quote, antioxidant benefits from vitamin C are actually not that. It's actually helping recycle glutathione.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's exactly right, yeah. And the medical community knows about this thing, but they said, well, that's true, but you know what? It still works. Just because something works does not mean it is going to work every single time.

As a pharmacist, my mind is always working towards, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If you have a problem, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody, if it's the same problem. And if it's not, then it's not the issues with the problem, it's the issues with the product that you're using, why it's not working. And so that was my quest originally to find out. I said, if gluten is so good for you, it should work for everybody. But even the IVs did not work for everybody. Even the other technology products that are out there does not work for everybody. And my question is, why not? Why is not working for you? If your body needs gluten, it should work. And the answer is the body has to make its own glutathione from scratch. Doesn't matter what you do. And if the body doesn't have the ability to produce glutathione, you can take all the building blocks in the world and the body is not able to make glutathione. And if that happens to any one of you, you'll go down really fast. I mean, two to three years tops, you have all kinds of diseases and you have no idea what happened to you. And you get cancer, you get all kinds of things that happen to you. And all of a sudden, oh my God, you're going downhill from here. It happens that fast.

I want to make sure people understand that antioxidants that you take for fruits and vegetables are all actually reviving glutathione as an antioxidant for itself.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. So some questions from there. So you mentioned this recycling power of glutathione, which is awesome.

I also read in your book that can it not be recycled when it's used for detox? Like there was a certain type where it's not recycled.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So that's the second part, right, Melanie? We talked about one job of growth is an antioxidant, and that's a big job. That's a huge job. There's a bigger job than that is to help your body, help your liver detoxify every chemicals and whatever you consume out of your body. And if you do not get the garbage out of your body, within a few days, months, or years, your body will be filled with all those toxic chemicals, and that's usually going to be the end of us as well.

So the two parts that glutathione does for us is as an antioxidant, it recycles itself as a detoxifying agent to help conjugate and get rid of the toxic chemicals outside the body. But when it does that, it uses the whole glutathione molecule once and for all. And so for detoxification purposes, your body has to keep on producing more and more glutathione all the time. Only for antioxidant purposes, the body will recycle the glutathione itself.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. So that in particular, because when people do fasting, which is very, you know, very beneficial for the body and supports health, and you were mentioning autophagy and all these things, it also, you know, upregulates the detoxification process.

So I would imagine supporting your glutathione production while you're fasting would be really, really important. Would that be?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Oh my gosh, this is one thing that we have time and time over. People that do IF intermittent fasting or just fasting is in general, their detoxification activity is skyrocketed when you add growth to the whole regimen.

It is by far the single most important thing that will make a profound impact on your health and wellness.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

Just to clarify, because I realize people might still be wondering about that, the vitamin C being a pro-oxidant thing. And you were mentioning some people, and you just mentioned now with glutathione how people take IVs and things like that, and it may or may not work for people. So with these different exogenous forms of substances, it sounds like with the vitamin C stuff, even though it's a pro-oxidant, do we need to be concerned about that, or does it all work out in the end? And then with the exogenous glutathione, and we'll talk about the form that you've come up with, but that form aside, people taking IVs and pushes and oral supplements, is that just doing nothing? Is it just sitting in the bloodstream? What is it doing?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, so the vitamin C at low concentrations is actually providing the energy to recycle the glutathione. So it's a great product to have it, but in moderation. You don't want to over-consume vitamin C ever.

So if you take like 500 milligrams or 1,000 milligrams per day, it's plenty. It is plenty to recycle your glutathione all the time. Now, of course, if your oxidative stress is pretty high, then you may need a little bit more. But I would say that in that case, just make sure that you have enough glutathione in your body in the first place. So vitamin C will help recycle some of the glutathione. You take more glutathione to increase the concentration of those things. All the other antioxidants, so-called antioxidants in the food sources are just a helper. They're helping inch away the increase of glutathione inside your body. So I would say not to stop it, but do not over-consume any of these products, including glutathione itself, or consume that either. Now, I'll share the story about that one too, but everything in moderation is going to be good for us. Excess, the body does not have anywhere to store it and use up any excess products. So don't give anything excess to the body.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, definitely. And then for the glutathione, the exogenous, and when I say exogenous, I mean forms that you're taking in that you're not creating inside.

Are they doing anything? Are they just sitting in the bloodstream? What happens with that preformed glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So the preformed glutathione is actually in every single cell in your body. So it doesn't matter if it's blood or tissues or any cell, any cell that produces that smartochondria is going to have glutathione in that cell. So you need the glutathione in each and every cell in your body. So it doesn't sit there forever because the glutathione is a very short life also.

It stays in the body for maybe a day or at the most for two, but I don't think it goes anything beyond those two days. So the body has to constantly produce more and more products all the time. So if you fast for seven or 10 days in a row, there might be some issues. But if you're just fasting for half a day or a day at the most, it's not a big deal at all. In fact, it's helping detoxify your body as well. I'm not sure if that's the question we're asking or not.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, or so when people do like a glutathione IV, so that that glutathione, what happens with that glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So that gluten gets broken down into amino acids, cysteine gets reabsorbed, cysteine is later used to produce your own endogenous glutathione inside your body.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, we break it down and reuse it.

Dr. Nayan Patel
And that cysteine will stay in your body for maybe a day or two. So even though you take an IV, the results are not there immediately. Well, the results are there immediately before about five or 10 minutes, and then the results are not there for another six hours. And then once the cysteine kicks in, the body produces more glutathione. Now you have some more results coming in. So you may have results for another day or two at the most.

But the thing is, keep in mind, I don't care what form you take the IVs or the liposomes or the capsules, and the body breaks down and takes the amino acids and produces own glutathione. You are at the mercy of the body's ability to produce glutathione. Now don't get me wrong. You can produce glutathione until the last day. You can make new cells until the last day. Imagine you get a cut when you're 15, and imagine you're getting the same exact cut when you're 60, which is going to heal faster.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, 16.

Dr. Nayan Patel
VF15 and 16, it's going to heal much, much faster than you are at 60, 65. You know why? Because to heal, you need to have all the immune markers, all the nutrients that it needs to heal the body correctly and efficiently. So even though your body can produce glutathione until the last breath, it produces less and less and less as we age. Because I only told you in these three components, glycine, glutamine, cysteine, there's three amino acids. It also needs two enzymes. It needs two molecules of ATP, which is energy. And as you can know, people as they start aging, the energy levels is drilling down anyways, right?

So if there's no ATP energy, but if you have all the enzymes and all the amino acids, your body still cannot produce enough glutathione. And the last thing for electron transfer, you also need NAD. What if your NAD levels are low as you age, which happens all the time? And so even though you may have all the ingredients, but if you do not have the energy source to make your glutathione, your body will not be able to make enough of it. And so if you tell a 50 or 60-year-old person to take glutathione supplementation and they say, well, I get some results, but not like fantastic results, or sometimes they don't even know. They think this is the best that can happen to you. And I said, no, it's not the best that can happen to you. The best is if I get you enough glutathione inside your cells that your body is used to having when you are 10 years old, 15 years old, if I get those levels back to you, that's what your body needs. And eventually, that's what your body is going to be using to heal itself from inside out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So that, yeah, that was going to be one of my questions earlier and you perfectly answered it, which was, I was wondering the role of just taking in the substrates that you need to create glutathione versus actually creating it, like what goes into that.

And it sounds like, you know, like you said, there's all these other things involved in AD and enzymes and the whole process. So, you know, it really requires holistic support to, you know, create this glutathione naturally when it gets harder as we age.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Let me ask you the next question. We want the body to make natural it all the glitter time. We want them to do all that work for us, right?

It's not like we want to take away that job from the body. But at the same time, as we age, if your body cannot produce enough, and if there is a way to give a little bit so that it reduces the workload for your body, that to me is still a good option than to just completely rely on the bodies that we do all the work for us.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, that completely makes sense. And now I understand better what you're saying about the pulse effect when people were taking, or I don't know what they were using in the original studies, but if a person takes an IV, they get this initial boost because it's there, but then they break it down so then you don't see it, and then it rebuilds it up again, which again, if you're, you know, aging and have other taxors and, you know, aren't efficient at producing glutathione, I guess you could take, you know, all this, all these glutathione IVs in the world, and it could be difficult for you to actually reconstitute it into the glutathione that you need.

What did you discover with the form of glutathione that you sell and that you created that I mentioned that I now take every night? So what is happening with that glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
I'm going to ask you another question afterwards too, Melanie, but I'll answer your question first. So when I first created the topical version of this, again, my goal is not to create topical version, it's just that the best scientists in the world are the one that observes things and let it happen the way it comes to you, not trying to change it. And so I was not about to change the form, I was just about to change, I was just about to learn how it works. And it happened to be the topical form was the best way to get the gluten inside your body, inside your cell membrane, inside your cells itself. And so when we discovered that, what we found out was that every single human being, regardless on what genetic makeup they have, were able to absorb the gluten inside your body. And I'll tell you another about the genetic makeup. There's a very small subset of people that we do gene testings today. Now for the last 15 years, we've been able to do gene testing. So we can find out gene mapping studies for people that have gene SNPs that they cannot do certain things in their life. There's few gene SNPs, which are GSTM, GSTP, GGT, these are all different genes required to produce glutathione. And if you're a mutation and your body cannot produce those enzyme that produces glutathione, no products in the world is going to save you. And so that to me was a major, major blow.

Now if you cannot produce glutathione at all, it's an easy one you'll find out very, very soon because you're going to go down really fast. What if people have other gene mutations like MTHFR, the most common gene mutation is MTHFR or COMT, where your body can produce plenty of glutathione, but the workload has increased to double, right? Because now the methylation path is shut down, somebody needs to detoxify your body, so needs for detoxification has gone up skyrocket. Since there's no methyl groups to do that work, the work is now falls on the glutathione to do the additional work. But the body says, oh, I'm already producing maximum amount of glutathione that you need. I cannot produce any more. Now what happens? And so what I discovered is those people had a profound impact on their life immediately after they had the type of glutathione because for the very first time, they had something in the cells ready to use up and help the body detoxify them immediately. And so to me, that was like an aha moment, I said, okay, now I have something to give to everybody. What if the people have, if they're young people and they're producing a glutathione? Well, they don't need my product at that time because the body has enough of it. And it would be in my best interest not to sell them a product because I said, hey, you know what? Your body can make it enough. Just stop drinking alcohol, stop doing crazy things, don't eat junk food, just drink water, and you'll be fine. You'll be literally, you'll be fine. If you want to cheat once in a while, it's not the end of the world, but I'll try not to do that, but it's not end of the world. But if you're an older person, when I say older, I don't mean that old by the way you are.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Anybody over the age of 30 and above, they're not old, but the body is now not able to produce enough glutathione. They will have an impact immediately after using the product because it is actually getting inside your cells, right?

And when it first happened to me in 2007, I got so scared because some of the really sick people had a major detox reaction. Like when that happened, I got scared because, oh, you know what? As a pharmacist, as a medical professional, our first goal is not to do any harm. And so if I had no answers for it, I said, you know what, let me find out. So we stopped the production, we stopped selling the products. We made a prescription item only. We started talking to the doctors. And so for 14 years, all we did was sold via prescriptions and told the doctors to report back to see what kind of problems you're having.

And so we found out, actually, how much to give you, how often to give you, how long can I give it to you for? And the amount we give you, like for IVs, I can give you one grams, two grams, five grams, 10 grams of IV push, and nothing will happen to you. For the topical version, I can only give you 100 milligrams at the most 200 milligrams. And that's it.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. I'm just curious because I do, like I said, I take this every night. How many sprays is that the equivalent of?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Also, four sprays is the typical dose. Four sprays is about 100 milligrams.

This is on the regular version. The plus version, I didn't even release the plus version until 2022 for the very first time. And that's because most of my clients, they get too much money and they go, if less is good, the more is better. I says, no, it's not. And they don't listen to me. So they just said, can you give me more blood? I hate to keep on applying more and more sprays. So that's why we lose the stronger version. But since we're losing the stronger version of the Glothine, we had some more studies done on that as well. And they have some merit to it as well. But overall, I still think that the regular version product is going to be sufficient for almost 90% of the people. No problem.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, okay, and so to clarify, so what you're saying with this form is that it bypasses what we were talking about earlier about needing to break down the glutathione and recreate into glutathione. This actually gets the glutathione directly into the cells to be used.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right. It gets in skin cells and then from there it gets transferred to the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
to that point. And this is something, and I know you've explained this to me before, I just can't wrap my head around this, actually with anything really.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around how whatever the supplement may be, but we'll talk about, you know, oral glutathione in this case, how putting it in one area can have a systemic effect. How does that work?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So yeah, the thing is, if you look at the medical literature, there's multiple ways the signals are transferred from one part of the body to the other part of the body. For example, if you step your foot on a nail, how fast will you take it off? It's really fast, right? But the brain got the message that, oh my God, Melanie just stepped the foot on the nail, and it hurts.

So there's a signaling from the, those are the neurons that send the signals straight to the brain. I said, hey, what do I do? I said, what do you do? Take the foot off, right? And you're done. The same signaling pathway that we have for the neurons, we also have to transport nutrients. And so every cells are closely bound to each other. Like a cell is not by itself, right? So a cell right next to it, there's another cell touching to each other. And this cell is all over the body. That's why if you put something in your tongue, under your tongue, like a sublingual drop, right? Let's say you could, let's say you took a B12 drop sublingually under your tongue. Within seconds, your brain's going to feel it, right? Or if you drink a caffeine, right? If you take a caffeine pill inside your stomach, instantaneously, within minutes, it's going to hit you, it's going to hit in your brain. How do you get transferred to all the systems, right? It's not the blood's going, the blood's not transferring nutrients. It's the cell-to-cell transfers, right? And so there's something called lipid rafts on each cell. On the lipid rafts, there's some ACE receptors. The receptor is basically accepts a nutrient from outside sources. And then once again, inside your cell, all the excess, it keeps on transferring to the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
Pretty magical.

Dr. Nayan Patel
The body is absolutely magical, as I said, our job is not to recreate the body, it's just understand and work with it.

Melanie Avalon
And so does it still, in addition to having this systemic effect, does it also, could you concentrate it on a certain area if needed for something on that area for skin or an injury?

Dr. Nayan Patel
This is so most of people they apply let's say for the joint issues that join directly and the pain goes over the joint right there is a local effect that's the same. Only the excess gets transported to the rest of the body so if you have let's see if you have skin issues and put in your face the facing of the first.

I refuse all use of all the price on the face that you need the rest extra yes transfer out of the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Yeah. Because I've been wondering actually with using the skin products, I'm like, I wonder if any excess glutathione is, if I'm getting any excess, or is it just staying local in my skin?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, you are getting access because the skin product that I have made up is actually a little bit stronger than the regular product. And the reason I make it a little bit stronger is because most of the people that apply the skin care product is applying a very small area, a localized area only.

And so I had to make sure that I get an impact immediately. So I made it a little bit stronger skin care product so they get the localized effect faster.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. You said you had a question for me?

Dr. Nayan Patel
question for you. You said you've been using this product for a while. Can you share me a routine and what makes you use this product every single day?

Melanie Avalon
Sure. Yes. So, and I'll be curious how my routine compares to, you know, what I quote should be doing. I use it though, I use the, the Oro spray and I use it every single night. I use it at night because that's when I'm having my glass of wine and winding down at the end of the day.

And I spray it on my chest actually. I did, I knew it's funny, um, Dr. Patel, because I can remember when we first talked about this, when you first came on the show and I had just started using it, I think I'm pretty sure. Um, and it probably would have been 20 around 2022. Cause I, I think you had out, I think you would just release the extra strength version. In any case, I remember I was communicating to you that it smells soul furry. And, and I was like having to get used to that because it definitely, it definitely has a distinct smell to it. And when I first started using it, I was like, oh, this is an intense smell. I don't even really notice it now. Like I'm so used to it. It really, it doesn't bother me at all is the point. So listeners, my, my point is if the soul fur smell feels like a little bit much to you, just keep going. You won't even, you won't even realize that in the end. And the nice thing is it doesn't, it doesn't linger. It goes away pretty fast. I do a couple of sprays every night and I do it with my wine. And then if I'm, if it's a night when I'm going out and I'm having more than I am, I have it when I, when I'm going to bed and then what's the half-life on it? I might be overdoing this. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I will like spray some more on me.

Dr. Nayan Patel
It's about four to six hours, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that's perfect. So yeah, cuz I'll usually like wake up, you know, like four hours later, and I'll, I'll spray some more. And I find it to be a wonderful tool in my toolkit for those nights out. I love it so much.

But I don't do it during the day. I wonder if I should be

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, thanks for sharing that part. The normal dose is about four sprays twice a day, and if you're going to have a glass of wine, then by the way, each glass of wine will wipe up your gluten levels to zero for the next four hours, and that's unfortunate.

Every drink of alcohol will do the part, so I'm glad that you applied the gluten right away, so that way your wine never fills the wrath of not having any gluten itself. And the reason you're waking at nighttime and applying it again, because your gluten level is not increasing fast enough, but it's an amazing tool to help you increase your deep sleep, especially after alcohol, so your HIV will not drop so low, and hopefully you'll have a restful sleep. The whole idea behind this thing is that it helps you metabolize the alcohol faster, so it does not linger on to give you the sleep disruption that it can normally cause with alcohol. But if you use it twice a day, twice a day is probably the most ideal way of using this product. And the reason is because I'm a creature of habit, right? I only use it once a day for four years, but I tell people to use it twice a day, because the thing is I never form a routine for myself. So about two years ago, I really sat down and wrote down my routine, my morning routine and evening routine, and I taped it in my room mirror, right? It's my morning routine. And then once I put the routine in the place, it took me about six weeks to do it twice a day, every day. And ever since that time, I do it twice a day, every day.

And over the years, over the last two years, I've done multiple tests to find out about my age and my metabolic markers and my organ health. And I can tell you right now, I got no problems, first of all. That's the best part is that my biological age is decreasing finally. I did another test, another one again right now. So I'll get a different number again for the next time I see you. But my overall health and wellness has just gone skyrocketed in the good direction. So all I'm saying is that, yes, it was hard for me to do it twice a day. Once I put the routine in place for the last two years, it has really transformed my whole body in the last two years, more than ever before.

Melanie Avalon
Which testing did you use for the biological age?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So, I'm using a generation lab at this time, so I'm measuring all the organ health, because you're only as good as the weakest organ, right? If one organ is telling me that you are aging 65 years of age, then I don't care if everything else is 20 years of age, my dead organ is 65, I'm 65 right now.

For example, heart. If my heart is old, if the heart gives out, does it matter if your liver is 20 years old? No.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, there's so many out there. So that's why I was really curious.

And that's a good point about looking at the organ specific ones. I love that. I might have to, okay, might have to change my routine, start having mine in the day as well.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Well, twice a day is better. But I think the morning one, I usually do it like half an hour 45 minutes before shower. So that way I wake up, I put my glove on first, do my morning meditations, my stretching. An hour later, I usually go shower. By the time it's done. So it does not see the body for long anyway. So it's okay.

Melanie Avalon
And what about the role? So my favorite of the skincare products right now, cause you have other things coming, is I love the citrine serum so much.

So your high dose, well, is it high dose vitamin C and glutathione? What is in it?

Dr. Nayan Patel
high dose vitamin C. The glutathione is just there to support the vitamin C getting into the complex, but the real work is done by vitamin C itself. Now, as you know, a body doesn't produce vitamin C. It's a pro-oxidant, but it's a very, very low grade pro-oxidant. It's enough to stimulate your cells in your face to have cognitive production, to put defense around it. So it is stimulating your body to do the right things to having cognitive production. So you have normal wrinkles, normal fine lines, things like that. So yeah, the number of products, unfortunately, people like citrine more than the glutathione itself when it comes to the face, but I'm just telling you my thing is G serum is good because yes, the results are not instantaneous, but the thing is once you do get the results, which is sometime during the cup of second, third month, it's a very profound impact in your life as well.

So that's the way I look at it, but your skincare, it's a statin skincare, right? All products are different. If you want to do one product, you submit any serum first, and then you pair that with the moisturizer that goes with that serum, and then the third thing you put the second serum on, and then the fourth thing is put the moisturizing pair that go along with it. All four products have different ingredients inside. All four work synergistically. You can start anywhere, but if you want to start anywhere, start with the serums first and then pair them with pair them with with with its moisturizer.

Melanie Avalon
And I will say to this point, because my audience has heard me talk about the importance of effective and clean and safe skincare for years and years and years. Friends, I have had conversations with Dr. Patel. I trust you so much with your production of these products.

Like we've had offline conversations about just what goes into creating them and sourcing and the materials and I just trust you so much. And I am so grateful for what you're doing with creating these products, because there's a lot of problematic products out there that not only might not be effective to the point that you would think, but also could be problematic with their ingredients and toxins and endocrine disruptors and such. So thank you for creating these products. And I know they're hard for, I know I don't wanna like speak for you, but I know a lot of energy and time and money goes into making these products and they're not easy to make, I don't think.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Thanks for saying that part because that is something that is, if I want to take the product myself, I want to clean product for myself. I don't care about anybody else. For myself, I do care as much as myself. So I want to make sure that anything that I put inside my body is clean.

So like for example, ascorbic acid, vitamin C. Ascorbic acid, again, I don't advertise this anywhere else because it's not my job to do that part. My job is just to create clean products. Ascorbic acid, 100% ascorbic acid in the United States comes from corn, all of them, right? And it's the cheapest way to get your ascorbic acid. It's the cheapest that you can buy. But guess what? All corn in the USA is GMO. It's all modified. And so I said, I cannot, even though it's a very small amount, I don't want to have to put in myself any molecule that is GMO. So guess what? The ascorbic acid that we use is non-corn-based ascorbic acid. Is it cheap? No, it's not cheap. It's not made in the United States. It's made in Europe, right? But guess what? I had to make sure that I get clean products for myself.

Now, this could be a great marketing tool if I want really to market it. But then to do that, I had to put every other product down. And that's not my goal either. My goal is to work with everybody. And I'll just do the right thing for myself. And hey, if the consumer finds out, that's good for them. But if not, I know in the back of my mind that I'm creating good products. That's how it matters.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just, I just love and appreciate this so much. And I remember us talking about that and I was like, wow, this is legit. Like he really, he really goes, you know, all in with this, which I just so appreciate.

Dr. Nayan Patel
One more thing, Melanie, is resveratrol. Resveratrol in the whole world is laced with heavy metals. And the thing is, cosmetic companies that sell the resveratrols, guess what? They're all with heavy metals in there. But the thing is, it doesn't go through your skin, right? So it's OK.

That's what they're telling you. But with my technology, I can push it through there. And if that's true, then I don't want to have resveratrol with heavy metals in there. So I really have to find a source, again, another source, then to clean up my raw materials, completely give me metal free. And if I can get those metals, I can use what cosmetic. Again, this is not something that I like to advertise all the time. But it just tells you what I have to do to make sure that I, myself, get clean products to use on my body.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, it's it's super important to me and I know this audience really appreciates it as well.

So yeah, we are we are team we are team what you're doing will taking or using oral glutathione spray and then also the skincare products will by giving our body this exogenous glutathione what will our body produce less.

Dr. Nayan Patel
The answer is yes. I think it will. I think so. Again, I do not know for certain, but knowing the science, I think it will do that part because the body does not do anything excess.

The body senses that you have something. The body says, okay, I can use energy to do something else. I don't have to produce this part because we have plenty of it, right? And so being that I know that part of the science, I'm assuming the body will not have to produce glutathione. And that was the reason why I found out how much to give you, how often to give you, because I never want to shut down your own production ever, right? But I want to replace a lot of the work by giving you exogenous or outside the body glutathione. If I can do that part and still maintain the body's ability to produce glutathione, then my job is served.

Now, keep in mind, glutathione is not a hormone. It's not like if you take an exogenous glutathione and the body stops producing it, the body will forget to make it. So when you really need it, the body will not know how to make it. The example I'd like to give you is when you're building a house. If you build a house, and if you live in Georgia, you build a brick house. If you're building a brick house, I'm just joking, by the way, I live in California, and there's no brick house because of earthquake.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, whoa, I never, wait, I lived in California for 10 years. I don't think I ever put two and two together there. Oh my goodness, I'm having like a real time epiphany right now.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So let's say you're building a brick house. What's the number one ingredient you need? Bricks. The bricks, because without the bricks, there's nothing that's happening.

And so the body does not take bricks from outside sources, right? If glutathione is the number one ingredient in your body, and if you give glutathione, the body goes, no, no, no, I can't take that. If you give me a brick, I'll break it down, make it into a powder, and then I'll make my own bricks again, and then I'll use it to build a house, right? That's what the body does right now. But let's say you somehow you convince the body to give the brick, okay, so you're done. If that happens, and then you got the brick, and it's already made up and ready to go, now all of a sudden, your body says, okay, if I have the bricks, I don't have to make the bricks, I can use the same energy to do the work because the labor force is still the same. If the labor is still the same, guess what? They can do some other work. And what's the labor force in the body? ATP energy, enzymes, and NAD, and amino acids. The amino acids can be used to make a countess of the peptides and proteins. ATP energy can be used to do other peptides and proteins as well, so does the NAD. So you never lose the ability, but the number one ingredient that your body needs is given to you, so all of a sudden, how much labor force do you need now that you don't have to make the bricks? Much, much less. Much less. And that's the reason why everybody that uses a glutathione for the first time, within two weeks, you have surplus of energy, ATP. Because for the first two weeks, the body goes, oh, I have more energy. Maybe I can do this. Maybe I can do that. I can do this. And after that, I say, yeah, I did everything possible, and I just have to maintain it. So now the extra energy, it shows up in the mitochondria, and I say, now, oh, my God, I got energy. I can do better. I can function better. I can walk. I can run. I have the energy to think better. And so all of a sudden, now, every single organ cell starts getting more and more energy. And over time, over two, three, five, 10 years, every single cell in your body is going to have surplus of energy to work with. And that's my goal, right? Not to take over the body's own pressure of glaucoma is to relieve the body of the number one job it does and allow the body to do the rest of the organs and get them better.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay.

So basically, so while we're supplementing this, our body now has more energy, more time and resources to do other things. And if we stop supplementing, then it will just dedicate time and resources again towards creating it. It's not like it shuts off the glutathione system.

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, it doesn't shut off because the thing is, if you take too much of glutathione, your body will go to a reductive state, which is not a good state. As soon as you do that, the body will have rashes and itching and diarrhea and headaches and things like that.

You know, right away, that something's wrong, right? So you back off anyways. And the dose that we are giving you is not 100% replacement. It's like 90% replacement, maybe less than that. And so that way, you can literally do it twice a day, every day, and never hit 100% from outside sources. You still have to rely on your body's ability to make some. Now, there are people out there that have enzymes, defects, and they cannot make anything. And they need them much higher. And so that's why we created a plus version. And so those plus versions, it's a godsend for them. And so now we have both the regular version for everybody and the plus version for people that have major issues with it.

Melanie Avalon
So listeners, I bet, are super excited to start integrating this into their life. Again, I can't recommend it enough. I use it, well, every single night, and now it looks like I'm going to be using it day and night. We have a 10% discount code for listeners.

So if you go to MelanieAvalon.com slash Auro, that's A-U-R-O. That will redirect to Dr. Patel's website. Use the code MelanieAvalon10, and that will get you 10% off your order. So again, that's MelanieAvalon.com slash Auro, A-U-R-O. Use the code MelanieAvalon10 for 10% off your order. Thank you for that, Dr. Patel. And I really can't recommend this enough. It's a staple, busy staple in my life. And it's funny, so when you, I remember, I remember when I first got the pitch about your book, and I saw the title, and I was really excited because I wanted to learn about Glutathione. And I also saw that you had a company that made Glutathione products, and I was like, oh, is this book just going to be a pitch for his products? And then I read the book, and it just blew me away. I was like, whoa, this guy knows everything I could have ever wanted to know about Glutathione. So thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. Not only are you creating the products that are really changing people's lives, but you're also doing this educational piece, which I just think is so important. Yeah, and you're just such an incredible human being. So if listeners ever go to a conference, because you guys, you're at a lot of conferences, definitely go say hi to Dr. Patel, because he's a, he's a shining figure, you and your wife and the booth and everything. It's just really, really wonderful. I just love it so much.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Oh, thank you so much for that. But again, it's nothing that I'm doing. I have so many angels like yourself that has come into my life and helped me spread this word because we all know, we all know we can only survive if we work together and figure out how to live together, right? If you try to do it by yourself, every single thing, it's not fun, it's not easy, and more than likely you're not going to be able to make it. But if you work together, I think we can all survive and we can all live for a very, very long time.

We've been very healthy. So I appreciate you having me here today and passing this message around. I know there's a part of this about intermittent fasting, so I just want a last foot for thought for people that are doing IF or fastings in general. It's a really, really good thing for a lot of people, not necessarily good for everybody, but it's absolutely an amazing thing for a lot of people. I have done myself intermittent fastings for a very long period of time, and I still do it on a regular basis as well, except for once in a while I may cheat on a Saturday or Sunday with my kids. But other than that, I do practice intermittent fastings all the time.

And with the help of glutathione, my inflammation markers have completely gone down. And so I just want to make sure that people, when you do these kind of things, I want to help people for this community because their goal is to get rid of all these dead cells, the zombie cells, or things like that, and those are mainly for inflammations. And once you get rid of those things, your inflammation will come down. Glutathione is absolutely going to be helping you in this wellness journey.

So please make it part of your routine and please support Melanie for what an incredible job she is doing to spread this word. So thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I just think this is one of such a key important thing, especially for people with a fasting lifestyle.

We didn't even touch on this, but in your book, you talk about its role in fat burning and just all the things. What's next for you right now? Anything?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely. We've been studying for the last few years, another peptide molecule. It's a 3-aminosuccine peptide, GHK. It's called the beauty peptide. The reason is because it is a signaling molecule for your skin cells to do the things to get your skin back to normal or younger. And so with our technology, we will be able to do this GHK copper. We just did a human trial for 30-patient trials and about from patients, for people from 33 years of age to about 70 years of age, something like that. And the results are absolutely mind-blowing.

So I want to make sure that people have access to it. So I am going to fast-track this product, and I'm going to be able to make this product available in the third quarter, sometime in the middle of the third quarter. And so I know this is October, but it's going to be available to everybody really, really, really soon right now. So please watch out for that one. As soon as it comes in, I'm hoping that everybody gets to try it for 30 days and see the results that we are seeing in the clinical trials over here. It's just crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, so a few quick points about it. One, when I saw you at the conference, you had samples of it and I am so excited and it's such a pretty blue color. It's so pretty.

Listeners, stay tuned for episode 448. I'm having Jay Campbell on for that episode and he's like the peptide guy. And I don't think we actually talked about it in that conversation, but in conversations I've had with him and in his book, he's talked about this peptide, this copper peptide and how just mind-blowingly incredible it is for the skin in particular. Because he talks a lot about how most peptides with the skin don't actually do anything or certain forms don't work, but he talks about how this copper peptide is really, really incredible. So I'm excited. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait to start trying it and using it. And that's incredible about the studies. Congratulations, by the way. I know that's a lot to do those studies.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely.

I think, see Melanie, you go to all the medical conferences so you get a sneak peek when I give to the doctors and so you got early access to it because the doctors had this access for over two years now and they have been raving about this product for a while but the thing is until I see the data coming through it I don't I don't release the products I have to see the data coming in before I release the product to the public and so now the data is in I cannot wait to get this out to the public now.

Melanie Avalon
It's so exciting, I can't wait either. So, okay, fingers crossed.

Hopefully it will be out by the time this airs. If not, stay tuned for it. And I'm assuming it'll be on the website with all the other products.

Dr. Nayan Patel
It will be there. Yes, it will be there.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. So again, listeners, friends, go to melonyavlon.com slash auro use the coupon code Melanie Avalon 10 you'll get 10% off site wide there.

That's where you can get that transdermal spray that I love the skincare products, the citrine and then hopefully soon the copper serums the copper peptide. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel. This was so fun. I just I love talking to you. I always just feel so much lighter. You're such an incredible human being and can't wait to see you hopefully soon at another at another conference. Are you going to eudaimonia by chance?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, because that week I'll be in Mexico. Oh, Mexico.

Melanie Avalon
Hopefully see you at another one soon, for sure.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Yes, for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, have a beautiful rest of your day and I will talk to you soon.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Thank you so much for having me. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Welcome to Episode 425 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Intermittent Fasting: Does It Affect Sports Performance? A Systematic Review⁠

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 425 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 425 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey Mel hey everyone I'm doing really good it's a jam packed Wednesday for me here in Australia and it's all happening that's one of those days in a good way how about you.

Melanie Avalon
Same, and I'm just reflecting on how when Barry Conrad says jam-packed, like the stuff you go to and do, you set the bar high for doing really cool things, like events and stuff.

Barry Conrad
You do too though, so what do you mean? You do amazing stuff.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I kind of exist though within a circle of like I go to shows at this theater or this theater like it's a little bit limited. You like go to like all these crazy events and like red carpets.

I mean it's it's very cool. It's very cool.

Barry Conrad
Thanks. Well, tonight, speaking of red carpets, I'm going to the Rolling Stone Australia Awards. Mic drop.

Mic drop. But it's going to be pretty lit. It's going to be like the shot glass you bought me.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, I think I was aware. Well, I guess I knew that Rolling Stones was very international.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so there's obviously in America, Australia, and it's going to be like star studded night, like lots of amazing Australian talent, lots of categories, red carpet, lots of good, you know, drinks, connections, people, it'd be fun. It'd be good.

Melanie Avalon
Super exciting. Can't wait to see all the pictures.

Barry Conrad
What about you? How's your week been? How's your day been? How's everything in your world?

Melanie Avalon
The world is good. I had a very good meeting today. We wrapped up the financial model for the dating app I am working on. Whoa. We've talked about that, right?

Barry Conrad
You mentioned to me ages ago but now you bring it up again I'm like. Almost my mind that you were doing that I can't melody and I can't keep up with all of your projects so tell me again about the stating out.

Melanie Avalon
been working on it a long time. I don't know. I think I've mentioned it on the show. So we're aiming to have it come out hopefully January 2026. Fingers crossed we shall see.

But basically it is a dating app which allows you to filter and sort by and connect depending on your dietary and drink preferences. So it's going to be like any other dating app, the big mainstream dating apps, you know, hinge, bumble, the league, et cetera. And you will be able to search by diet. So.

Barry Conrad
That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
So people who are like paleo, or keto, or vegan, or carnivore, pescatarian, whatever you are, gluten-free, organic, there's a filter for that. And then also on the drink side of things, we're going to do if you're, you know, like a wine lover or there's this whole sober curious movement, you know, if you're not a drinker.

Because so much of dating and relationships involves food and drinks. They did a study where they looked at the top four different first dates and they all involve food or drink, all of them.

Barry Conrad
I'm not surprised that that makes total sense and it's important if you don't if you're not compatible sure you can have your own situation that's totally fine but if it's going to be so different where you can't. I just put so many parameters around what you can do together that can kind of get in the way maybe what do you think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and I also I left out so it's also going to be like food if you're just like a food lover, you know, because that's a whole category people who love food and they're not dietary like restrictions per se. And there's also like a whole world of like junk food lovers, like that's a whole that's a whole community.

Wow. Yeah, I know this because I read the blogs of them. So I guess I'm in the community. I just don't eat any of it. Oh, my goodness. Okay, but to answer your question, great question. Yes. So I think I think people being on the same page about a lot of stuff about food and drink is just so helpful and important for especially like the drinking and then on the food side of things when you're, yeah, choosing restaurants, going out. I mean, I'm all good for people to eat whatever they want to eat. Honestly, like it does not bother me do what you want to do. At the same time, I think if I was ongoing with somebody who was not into any sort of healthy diet, that might be a little bit difficult.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, I'm with you in the sense that people can eat whatever they want around me, but if I had to be around someone that, for example, was an alcoholic that, or someone that really struggled with alcohol, and then I had to sort of watch that, I don't know, it's not a deal breaker at all, but I do think it just makes it easier to be compatible when you like the same things. So some of the same things anyway.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, and it's really interesting, like, on the drink thing, like, there's the whole sober curious movement, like I said, where I feel like a lot of people are into that now.

Oh, and they'll also have a section for like coffee, you know, so if you're like a coffee lover, you're just, oh, now I'm just brainstorming. I could integrate with my coffee company. Oh my goodness. Vertical. No, that wouldn't be vertical integration. That would be the glow. We're still figuring out our marketing strategies and, you know, user acquisition and such, but at some point we will have a landing page where we can get people, people coming, but it's going to be called craving.

Barry Conrad
I love their name. It's genius for what it is, the kind of app it is.

Melanie Avalon
I think we talked about this. I think you should be like the cover model. Oh my goodness. We could do ads. We could do a photo shoot together. That'd be so funny.

Barry Conrad
Even if you wanted to listen as if you tuned in recently when Mel talked about her mirror technique, remember that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, so we will bring the mirror to set and then you can adopt the mirror technique.

Barry Conrad
I somehow think I wouldn't be as good at it as you, because you have a downpact. You like stroll it out.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like you'd be a natural. All you do is you just pose in the mirror.

Barry Conrad
I think I'd be too self-conscious where I think it helps you get shy to see myself like I can't see myself.

Melanie Avalon
That's so funny. It's going to help. That's so interesting. You're so right. So like it would help me and like help me take good photos and it might do the opposite for you.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's the same thing like when I'm doing yeah, I can't watch myself I just have to be in it and just do it and then just let them decide You know

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Listeners, let us know.

Okay. So this is not the selfie situation to clarify for listeners. This is when somebody's taking your photo. Can you just have the photo be taken or would you rather see yourself in a mirror and pose yourself such as I do?

Barry Conrad
You are the very first person, you in Paris, it's the view of the very first example, you in Paris, that I've heard of, who does this. So that's a first.

I'm going to start a trend. Speaking of wine, by the way, going back to what you were saying about sober curious, I'm not sober curious necessarily, but for the past week, I didn't buy any wine to have around the house because I'm in a new apartment right now. And usually I drink on the daily while I'm cooking to break my fast, which listeners might know. But last week I didn't buy any, just to kind of see how I felt. And interestingly enough, I don't know if I feel any different, which is curious, like I'm curious about Melanie, because a lot of people, you know, have dramatic changes like, oh, I've sleep better, or I feel better in the morning, but I actually don't feel a difference. So that's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon
I, you know, I did a similar, well, it was more intense. I told you I didn't drink for a whole year, right?

Barry Conrad
What?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Why? For the same reason that you did last week. I was like, I'm going to do it for a year. I went a year with no caffeine, no alcohol.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow, that's impressive though.

Melanie Avalon
to see if this thing they speak of where they're like, cut out all the stuff, you'll feel amazing. So I was like, I'm going to try that. And I didn't feel any different. I did not feel, I felt less amazing by the end.

And then I got kind of scared because I was like, Oh, I've been going so long without caffeine and alcohol. Like, you know, how do I bring it back now that I've been so long without it? So literally I made my new year's resolution was to start drinking again.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. So when you had that first sip of wine or coffee after that, like what went through your body or your mind? Like, were you waiting for like a reaction? What happened?

Melanie Avalon
So what's interesting for coffee, I never, I didn't bring it back. I didn't bring back it. I did not bring back a ton of it. I brought back, I just have a little bit every morning.

That's like my, my sweet spot for the wine. I don't, you know what? I actually don't remember to answer your question about feeling different or not. I know what the answer is for me, which is that if I'm doing all my stuff, which is the organic wine, you know, lower alcohol, lower sugar, having my z-biotics, probiotic, pre-alcohol drink, doing all my things, I'm just genuinely happier with wine in my life. I think for me, it's like, it's like a ritual. I, you know, it's like a tasting experience. It like brings all good things to my life and my experience. So yes, but if I were drinking like normal stuff, not with all the stuff, I would, I would definitely feel different drinking or not drinking, I think. You, I think you're, I think you're just a very, very good alcohol processor, like genetically. I thought you were going to say.

Barry Conrad
I think you're just a really good alcoholic, I'm not an alcoholic, Melanie, no alcohol, but yeah, I think so too, which is really interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's really interesting that you don't feel any different.

Barry Conrad
Because my father, for example, he really struggled and struggles with alcohol, and it has been really awful. So it's just interesting that genetically I'm able to process it in a way different way. So that's really, I'm fascinated by that.

I want to look more into it. Because I am mindful that I don't want to have any excess, but it doesn't impact my life, my ability to focus, because my ability to work the way I feel, the way I train, and my bloods as well, my blood work. So do I keep down that road, or do I just pull back to prevent future issues?

Melanie Avalon
I'll let you know. Honestly, from all the research I've done, I do think there are health benefits to, especially if it's wine, having daily wine, like longevity wise, heart health wise, all the things. It's similar to you because there is in my family, there are people who struggle with, not my immediate, like my extended family, there are people who struggle with alcohol and it is really interesting how some people really fall into that addiction pattern and others don't. Like for me, I have zero, I don't have, I have zero fear of that happening to me. So yeah, it's really interesting.

And I will say, oh, so I'm gonna share this with listeners. I had always been talking, I've been talking a lot about ion layer and AD patches, which I was wearing those when I would go out and or the next day. It's your body's master metabolic enzyme that is involved in like basically everything that you do when it gets depleted by drinking. So it always really helped me with, especially when I have like a night out with a lot of drinks. Now they have a glutathione patch as well. Oh my goodness, my protocol now, game changer, it is insane. I've realized now when I go out, this is so crazy, now when I go out and I drink much more than I do normally, I actually feel better the next day than most days because I do this protocol and the only time I do the protocol is when I'm going out. So I wear the glutathione patch while going out and then the next day I wear the NAD patch, it's shocking, it's amazing.

Barry Conrad
I can't wait to try all of these things all of these tax I can't when I moved to America can't wait to do it try it all.

Melanie Avalon
It's, I know, we got to get you stocked up on Ion Layer because it's amazing. So listeners, you can go to melonyavalon.com slash Ion Layer, use the code Melanieavalon, that will get you $100 off. So definitely try that.

Should we jump into some things?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump in.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, do you have a study to start us off with?

Barry Conrad
I do have a study to start us off with. And today, I'm bringing a study called intermittent fasting, does it affect sports performance? I was really excited about this, because as you know, I train a lot, love all this. And it was published in the journal nutrients back in February 2024.

And it's sort of like a systematic review led by researchers from the University of Milan in Italy. And it dives into something we get asked about all the time, can you still perform at your best, whether in the gym, on the field, wherever you train, while intermittent fasting. So this wasn't, it wasn't like a small one off study, they sort of they actually pulled together from 25 different studies, the data. So we're talking about like a pretty comprehensive look at how intermittent fasting impacts a whole range of athletic markers. So think strength, endurance, power output, aerobic capacity, even recovery. And here's what I found super interesting. Now, across the board, results showed that intermittent fasting doesn't negatively affect sports performance. And in some cases, it even even enhanced it.

So let's get into that. So one of the most common fasting styles or protocols that came up in this was the 16, eight method. And so for newcomers, anyone listening for the first time where you're new to intermittent fasting, that means 16 hours fasting, eight hours eating, which a lot of you already know. So with athletes who followed this, researchers found no significant decrease in strength or endurance performance. And if anything, a lot of them actually improve their body composition, which really excited me because I was like reading like, please not be bad. And this basically means more lean muscle, less fat, who doesn't want that, not me.

And another big takeaway was how intermittent fasting seemed to improve metabolic efficiency. So what I mean by that for anyone who doesn't know is the body sort of becomes better at using like a fat for energy, especially during the fasting window, which means athletes aren't constantly relying on quick carbs to get through a workout. And over time, like that shift can sort of lead to more more stability in your energy, improved insulin sensitivity, even enhanced recovery markers, which is massive because recovery is so important.

And the only difference though, that I found was where things got more nuanced was during the like the Ramadan style fasting. Side of things. And that means like sort of dry fasting during the day and dry fasting is like no food, no water. That's pretty intense. And in some of the cases, especially with those elite athletes, the performance did dip during that Ramadan style situation. But the study points out that it wasn't necessarily the fasting that caused that issue. It was often like a mix of hydration, sleep, depletion, inconsistent training because of not feeling strong because of the fasting.

So I guess it's the context, you know, so one of the coolest parts of me about this was that certain faster athletes actually improve their short bursts, high intensity performance.

Barry Conrad
So we're talking things like sprints, which I love hill sprints, and I've said that before. So sprints, hit training, jumps, that kind of thing, which actually totally debunks and or challenges the idea that, you know, you have to be quote unquote constantly fed, constantly eating to be explosive or, or powerful. It's just the more we delve into the research, it's just not the case. So of course, like, you still need proper nutrition, you still need recovery, hydration, but fasting when done right, it doesn't have to hold you back.

And this sort of talks about that might even give you that edge. So the researchers at the end, they did say, though, there's a lot more work to be done, especially with the longer term studies and standardized protocols. But the early signs look pretty, pretty promising, especially if you're someone who's fasting on the regular and wondering if you leave in the gains on the table, you're not leaving the gains on the table. So science is showing that we can fast and train and perform and recover like a bus. So Mel, what do you I'd love to hear your thoughts. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon
I love it so much. And you said when you sat down to read it, what did you think it was going to say?

Barry Conrad
I wasn't worried, but there's always something in the back of my mind like I don't want any new research to come out saying fasting is going to inhibit your performance because I'm so active and so I was glad that these are the findings.

Melanie Avalon
No, that's amazing. I love it.

It's so interesting because people just have... I feel like still they're really, really concerned and think that it really will impede performance and it's just not, you know, seemingly what the people's experience shows, what the studies show. I'm glad that you drew attention to the Ramadan thing because, you know, I feel like that's completely different. So like people not drinking water, like just like dry fasting. Yeah, I would not even... I would not even look at that for athletic performance because that's such a huge factor. Like electrolyte balance and hydration is so important. And then like you said, it's also affecting other lifestyle factors as well.

Amazing. 25 studies.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. So I thought it was really comprehensive. And yeah, I do think I agree with what you said as well.

The Ramada, I feel like it's a different category. Do you think like it's not even, it's not really intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon
So, I mean, it is, it is intermittent fasting because I mean, they don't eat during daylight hours, right? So they're getting, I don't, I don't know how long when it's done.

And I don't like, when is it, when is Ramadan?

Barry Conrad
I wanna say, hold on, I don't wanna get this wrong.

Melanie Avalon
February in the U.S. Okay, so like in February, in 2025, it's Friday, February 28th through Saturday, March 29th. Okay.

What I'm trying to envision, what's interesting about it, oh, this is interesting. Oh, I find this interesting. I never thought about this. So, you know, it's a religious event, but the dates are set. So that means depending on where you are, like where you live, it's going to depend on how many daylight hours you have.

Barry Conrad
That is interesting.

Melanie Avalon
So, you know, cause like here in the U S that's a little bit shorter days still. I mean, they're getting days are getting longer, but like for you guys, cause what season is it again now for you?

I know we go through this every time.

Barry Conrad
I want to say it. Okay. It's not, I think it's autumn slash fall. I want to say it's not spring because we talked about this last time. It's like, it's not spring. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
So presumably based on where you are, not even just location because of the season, but also the latitude, like so like how far you are from the equator.

Barry Conrad
Because I know from Melanie, when I used to live in South Africa, there's a lot of Muslim population there. And one of my mom's best friends, one of our best family friends, she married into a Muslim family, and we'd go over during Ramadan so we could eat all the food at night.

But basically, the point is, as soon as the sun went down, that's when they would eat. So there wasn't a set time on the clock. It's just usually somewhere between six and eight, it would be where they can eat and drink.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So like if you lived, for example, at the polls, you would have, you know, that would come, that would drastically affect the daylight hours.

Barry Conrad
Do you think in that case, so like Norway and places like that, would they have to like maybe put a time on it then maybe like

Melanie Avalon
I don't know, like, do they adjust? I don't, I mean, how would they adjust though? Because like, isn't the rules about the light?

Barry Conrad
They'd probably never break their fast data, though. I don't know. Actually, now I want to find out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I looked it up. Ramanan fasting can be adjusted for Muslims living in regions where daylight hours are extremely long or short, such as near the Arctic or Antarctic circles, where the sun may not set or rise for days or even weeks. Islamic scholars and councils have addressed this unique situation with practical solutions. So here are some approaches.

They might follow the nearest moderate location, so like the closest city that has a clear distinction between day and night, or follow Mecca's timetable. Hmm, that makes sense. Or follow a 24-hour clock, like you were saying, using a set number of hours. So interesting. I can't believe I never thought about this before.

Barry Conrad
That actually is interesting. Now we know, so follow near a city or, okay.

Melanie Avalon
But you know what's interesting also? So this is for like the polls.

So, but for people who there is a distinct difference between day and night, but it's like you mentioned, like Norway or something, I feel like in that situation, they're just getting more or less daytime hours, but it wouldn't be so extreme that they might do a different protocol. So basically, I mean, I don't know, but it sounds like maybe, I feel like there would be subtle differences and the length of fast based on where you live.

Barry Conrad
I agree, because if people had for the polls, like you were saying, or like Norway and stuff like that, they would have to, they'd probably be more uniformed with their like structured in their fasting. Like from this time to this time, we'll just do it because it doesn't get dark.

Whereas other people will wait. And it would probably change quite like even in the daily. Yeah, interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Wow. I'm never going to look at Ramadan fasting the same way again. I'm just really surprised that I've never thought about this before, and I've been talking about this for so many years.

Barry Conrad
I do know, based on mates I've had who are Muslim and they do Ramadan, they always have no energy. It's just because you can't drink water, and that's a major thing. I think food is one thing, but being dehydrated and then having to work and things like that, that's pretty intense.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. I know people will do conscious dry fast and they, and it can have other benefits to it in general though. And that's a long time to be doing that. It's like a month.

Barry Conrad
It's a whole lot and also I wonder how people who practice Ramadan fasting, how it affects their bodies over the long term, doing that all the time, you know, because it's like this massive depletion and then like, I'm sure some of them probably, I'm guessing over eat or overdo it when they get back to eating, whereas some probably don't. But I wonder if it has any impact on their long term health, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, it's interesting.

I could see how it could be a good thing or it could be a catalyst for fasting and making good dietary choices. And then I could see how for a lot of people, it might be like, oh, the thing they are required to do one month a year. And then they're just making up for it the rest of the time, which is like 11 months not fasting and one month fasting.

Barry Conrad
Have you ever done, I know you've talked about like, you know, you raised Christian and whatnot, did you ever fast during like for religious reasons in your family? Did they ever get into that?

Melanie Avalon
not fasting. So it's interesting. So I have two memories associated. One is Lent. So that's kind of like the Christian equivalent, but you can quote fast from anything. So that Lent is people often give up something for Lent.

I don't know if I ever actually, I might have given up like candy or something at some point. I do remember though, I remember one of my friends when I was in middle school was doing a fast. It's so interesting to think how far you've come and perspective and mindset because I was much younger then. So it's a different situation. But I know she was doing like a, was it only, was it a 24 hour fast? It's probably like a 36 hour fast. I don't know. Might have been a 24 hour fast. I just remember like it was a whole thing. And that's the only memory I have about fasting related to religion that was for her church. So I don't think I did. Did you?

Barry Conrad
You know what, not without food or water, but what I do remember is like, have you heard of the Daniel fast or whatever that is?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you eat like what Daniel ate when he was in the lion's den, assuming he was there because we recently did an episode, and I know Barry listened to it, on the Mindblown podcast about biblical misconceptions. So many of those blew my mind when I learned them.

Yeah. So which ones blew your mind the most?

Barry Conrad
Well, the fact that it's the best selling book of all time, for some reason in my head, I didn't put together that it gets sold. It doesn't just come from nowhere.

So who's getting that money? A, B, B, the Jonah and the whale as well. It's actually meant to be a big fish, not a whale, technically.

Melanie Avalon
It never says whale, it says big fish, which could have been a whale, they could have been calling it that, or it could have not been a whale.

Barry Conrad
the three wise men there wasn't technically there weren't three oh yeah that was come on really

Melanie Avalon
Because because there were three gifts so that that's why we think that no no they name three gifts.

Barry Conrad
But what if there were 10 people or one person?

Melanie Avalon
Well, what if there were other gifts too? And Mary Magdalene, they never actually said she was a prostitute. I definitely thought it said that.

Barry Conrad
Sam, going back to what you said, Mel, assuming that what we're talking about, the Daniel diet, assuming he was in the lion's den and he actually ate whatever it was, like, it was a specific diet. Like, I've done that for a week and that's meant to be this hardcore thing, which is so easy to do now, but I thought that was, like, so meaningful at the time. Like, yay, I'm doing something for God, you know, eating this.

Melanie Avalon
It's like a, it's like a vegan fast, right? Like, isn't it very like vegetables and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I, I don't do that. I'm familiar with it though. I did not, I did not do it though. There you go.

Very interesting. Okay. Well, thank you for finding the study. Take away fasting for athletic performance. Yes. It's support. So it helps muscle growth, helps actual performance, body composition. Just make sure you're, you know, drinking, getting your electrolytes, sleeping. Yes. Really important. Shall we jump into some questions for today?

Barry Conrad
We should. Let's do it.

So, Carolina from Facebook, she asks, why am I feeling so cold when I extend my fast? I normally eat three meals in an eight hour window, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. every day. I stay under 50 grams of carbs and prioritize protein and fat. I'm very active every day. Resistance training, five days per week. Walk 13K steps every day. No need to lose weight. I'm in calorie maintenance. My goal is body re-composition. I like the idea of having one 800 calorie meal on Mondays for health reasons and digestive rest. But when I fast to delay my breakfast, I'm literally freezing. I have to have a full blast heater on. Is this normal? Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. So I love this question. And what could possibly be going on here?

I did some research and so people's core body temperature can vary pretty individually. And there tends to be, there's this concept of a human thrifty phenotype. I'm not necessarily saying that I know that Carolina, that this is the case for you. But that said, basically, they've done studies on people's energy expenditures, like how much energy and heat their body is producing and how that relates to core body temperature. And it seems that some people have a thrifty phenotype. And when they have that, their core body temperature drops more while fasting compared to people who aren't that phenotype. And then on the flip side, that same phenotype where they get colder while fasting, they also don't get as hot when overeating. And what's actually going on with the neurotransmitters and hormones is that people who have this thrifty phenotype, they basically don't release as much adrenaline and epinephrine during the fast. So it could be genetic. It could be completely normal that, yes, for you when you fast, your body just gets colder. It doesn't try to, or it more actively tries to preserve fat in the fasted state. That's one option. And I think that applies to a lot of people. Another thing is you could be over fasting or overdoing it. And this is just a signal to your body that it's too much. A benefit, kind of like a good thing about this is lower core body temperature in general does correlate to longevity. So calorie restriction, it has been the one thing consistently shown to promote longevity in all species. It also correlates to lower body temperature and lower body temperature tends to correlate to longevity. So not that it's like a great thing to be really cold feeling, but if you are cold, it might be more beneficial for longevity. So that's an upside. Something you could do. So there's some options here. There are some foods that you can eat. And I have found personally that they are very thermogenic and they actually keep me warm. If you've tried adding MCT oil to your food, that is so thermogenic. For me, it makes me really hot. So you might find that adding that to your meals can help you fast longer. If being too cold is impeding you from fasting, you might find, can find that adding MCT oil to your meals will keep your body temperature warmer. You also might want to try doing not the whole low carb diet thing and fasting, you know, doing the fasting hours that you want, but having carbs in your eating window. A lot of people when they do like a ketogenic diet or a low carb diet, they get cold from that diet. So yeah, that's definitely an option to play around with is try having more carbs in your diet. If you're worried about fat gain and weight gain and anything like that, I really want to encourage people that when you're eating whole foods, adding back in carbs after being low carb, as long as you don't also keep all the fats, you actually might find that you actually lose weight from that or see beneficial effects and energy,

Melanie Avalon
body composition, warmth, all the things. So that's something you could try is make a switcheroo and do a more higher carb, lower fat approach.

Yeah, but basically it comes down to yes, it is normal to get cold while fasting could be a genetic phenotype and that's just the way it is and not something you can change or it could be that you're over fasting either way, adding in, you know, carbs or MCT oil. Also, you can add in lots of like spices to your food. Those can have a heat, a heating effect. Actually, I might be a little bit wary about the spices because some people actually eat, add those to their meals because it does increase the temperature, but then they have a response to it where they're bought, the body adapts to cooling. It's kind of like how in hot cultures, they'll eat spicy food to stay cooler. So actually, maybe don't listen to me on that. I do know with the MCT oil though that, I mean, that makes me really, really warm. So what are your thoughts, Barry? And have you ever experimented with MCT oil?

Barry Conrad
I actually have not experimented with MCT oil in my food yet. Do you think it's something that I should experiment with?

Melanie Avalon
Just if, just, I mean, no, just if you want, just if you want, the reason I don't like it is how hot it makes me, honestly.

But it's basically a, especially if you get the C8 or C10 version, which is the most easily, like ketogenic, easily used fat compared to the more full spectrum. If you get just the C8 version, but basically it is a fat that kind of functions more like a carb because it is instantly shuttled to the liver, used for energy. It doesn't easily get stored as fat and it's very, it easily becomes ketones. It's very metabolism stroking, making you, you know, warm and thermogenic and all that. Yeah, it's an interesting food.

Barry Conrad
I have had some in my coffee.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so you've had it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, but I haven't experienced how it feels putting it with my food. Yeah, in general, I'd get pretty hot when I eat, which is kind of frustrating because maybe I'm just eating so intensely, but I get really hot.

What I thought, I mean, you hit everything so amazingly, Mel. The only thing that did cross my mind was when you said that maybe she isn't eating enough carbs, like the fact that, Carolina, you're training five times a week, 13,000 steps a day, like your body sounds like it's already efficient, and there's not a whole lot of extra body fat there for insulation, so you're probably going to feel that chill more. That's the only thing that I thought, which you mentioned. So maybe a tweak, having some more carbs in there. I don't actually get cold when, I don't really get cold when I fast, but you experience that, Mel, called the cold fasting effect.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. When I was low carb, I was much colder. Now, honestly, it really depends on the meal I had for my one meal a day. It is, it's kind of shocking how much it affects me.

So if I have, it kind of goes back to like the, the warming and the cooling foods, especially in like traditional Chinese medicine or Ayurvedic, I actually really find that that applies to me. So if I have a meal of, you know, just lean fish for my protein, I'll be colder the next day compared to if I have a meal with lots of like chicken or steak. Even if I eat the same amount of actual protein, the, the warming proteins really keep me warmer the next day and the colder ones I'm colder the next day.

Barry Conrad
That's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon
in the past I've done where I would just have, like I wouldn't have protein for like a no protein day. And that would make me really cold the next day.

Yeah, the foods you're eating can really, really affect you. But if I had that MCT oil, yeah. Actually, one of the reasons I kind of dread summer is because I feel like I have less freedom in what I can eat because I really don't like being hot. And so I feel like in the summer I have to be more cognizant of meal choices that won't make me really like too hot the next day.

Why are you laughing?

Barry Conrad
I've just never heard of someone say, like, I've never experienced, like, okay, the food that I ate yesterday, this is going to make me feel hot tomorrow, or it's going to make me feel colder tomorrow. That's amazing.

I've never thought of it in that way or experienced that, but maybe now that you've mentioned this, maybe I should try to pay attention to, like, have an experiment and see if I do feel different.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So, and it will especially, so, so some comments, um, it's a little bit different. Like it is the next day for me, but I eat my meal really late. And then, so the next day isn't even necessarily that long into the fast because I think I eat and I go to bed. But all of that said, because I'm so like, I, I'm so conscious and eat within a certain collection of foods. That's pretty similar.

Like I, I, I always crave a certain protein. So basically it's a chicken night or it's just a fish night or it's a steak night. So it's really easy for me to experiment and notice. It's yeah, it's easier for me to notice. So I'd be really curious if you do notice a difference, but you might always have, do you pretty much always have like chicken or steak or.

Barry Conrad
I have a lot of I have a lot of ground beef, steak, chicken, but oftentimes, like, I'll combine like how you said you like to have you crave one type of protein. I'll have smoked salmon to start, for example, or chicken wings to start, and then I'll also have beef. So I don't I often like combine protein. It's never just one.

So that's probably why I can't really I can't really notice because I'm always combining.

Melanie Avalon
Well, what's interesting is I always combine because I always have my scallops. So there's always a fish there, but then sometimes I have just chicken or steak. I'd be curious. Okay. So maybe notice if you have, if there's ever a day that you only eat seafood, see if you notice that you're not as hot.

Okay. There's this book. Okay. If, if friends are interested in this, oh my goodness, I love this book. It's very famous in the world of traditional Chinese medicine. It's called healing with whole foods. It is the, oh, with more than 600,000 copies sold. Okay. It is the biggest Bible of information about every food seen through the lens of traditional Chinese medicine and like yin yang balance. And so it has like, it literally has every food ever. It's crazy. It's so big. It's heavy. You could use it as a weight at the gym and each food, it'll say like, is this warming or cooling? And like, what, like, what parts of your bot, like what organs does it benefit? I love this book. Mine's like all, like all marked up with like notes and highlighters and stickies and that's a great book.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that sounds interesting. I definitely want to dive more into this because I know when I have spices, I get hotter, spicier foods, but that seems obvious.

But I want to try this fish-only day, chicken-only day, and see if it impacts how I feel.

Melanie Avalon
Here's something important, and I kind of said it earlier, but to clarify about the spices. So this is just me thinking it through in real time. When you eat a lot of protein or meat, A, protein is the most thermogenic macronutrient. And what that means is about 30% of the calories just get burned off as heat by processing the protein.

But the long-term effects of eating that protein, it's going to actually keep you warm and keep giving you heat because it's like a slow digestion process, it's thermogenic, et cetera, compared to spices. Where spices are non-caloric, they're not even providing, I mean, what, they might have like a calorie, but they're barely providing any calories, so they're not having a thermogenic effect from that perspective, but they can be very, you know, heating, like create the feeling of heat. But I think that ends up having the opposite effect, like I was saying, where your body gets good at cooling yourself down. So the longer-term effects of the spices might actually make your body cooler in the future, like not at the moment of eating it, because at the moment of eating it, eating either of these things, you're going to be probably feeling warm, but like the long-term effects, like eating a high protein meal is going to make you warmer later, but eating hot spices might make you cooler later.

Barry Conrad
There you go. Carolina, we hope that you- we hope that helped. That was- Melanie said it all. That was amazing.

Also, Melanie, I had to- you're like, why are you laughing? What do you say? I'm gonna be hotter tomorrow or cooler tomorrow. There was just- I've just never heard that. That's why I was laughing. It wasn't- yeah.

Melanie Avalon
You're going to start notice, you're going to notice.

Barry Conrad
And, yeah, you don't like somewhere. I know that. You don't like being hot.

Melanie Avalon
No, you know what's funny is within the past, I think a couple days, three, maybe three, I think three different, I got emails about three different concerts, all of which I would like to go to. They're all in ampli theaters outside in the middle of the summer in Georgia.

I don't understand who, why do people enjoy this? I'm so confused. Somebody please explain to me.

Barry Conrad
Melanie, a lot of people love to be hot and they love summer. Like, I'm sure you know that these people, like a lot of people like that.

Melanie Avalon
It's like so mind blowing to me, it's so crazy. And so I get these, I'm like, oh, I want to go to Mumford and Sons or I want to go to Kesha, but it's like in the summer outside.

Barry Conrad
Okay, but hold on, what if, because I'm guessing the show is like at night, so it would probably cool down.

Melanie Avalon
It doesn't matter. I was Googling. I was like, what time is it going to be?

I was like, what temperature is it going to be at seven o'clock in August in Georgia? And it could, it can literally still be like 80 degrees. I was like, I can't, this is ridiculous.

Barry Conrad
That's not even that hard. That's like 26 degrees Celsius. That's like the limit for me.

Melanie Avalon
Did you look up the right number? That is hot. That's too hot to be like, am I get up? Like my concert get up? I cannot.

Barry Conrad
What if you brought like an umbrella? That might sound intense, but a lot of people have umbrellas for the sun.

Melanie Avalon
it's already covered. It's like covered amphitheaters.

Barry Conrad
That's even better. You could do it. Like, why, why don't I try? Go, go.

Melanie Avalon
in another life. Why don't they do these in the winter outside? That's when I'm there. I'd show up for that.

Barry Conrad
Because you know what? In the winter, no singer, singers inside baseball want to sing in the cold. It's just the worst for your voice.

Melanie Avalon
I'd be there. Okay. Then how about the fall?

Barry Conrad
If there's humidity, it's easier to sing in. But again, what's good for you, the singers is not good for necessarily some audience members, aka Melanie Evelon.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's good for everybody? What? Singing inside.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
solves all the problems.

Barry Conrad
What it's so funny that you said you googled what temperature it could be.

Melanie Avalon
I did. I was, I really wanted to buy these tickets. And I was like, I just can't. And then what if it's raining?

Barry Conrad
You couldn't do it? Nope.

What would happen? Okay. So if you were there and it started raining, what would, how, what would go through your mind? Would you just hate that experience or would you deal with it?

Melanie Avalon
No, I would I would I mean, and it's covered so but it's just my hair would not be nice. You know what? I really love climate control. I'm just it's so great like inside climate control.

Barry Conrad
Have you, Tangent, but have you watched a show called Paradise? What happens?

Melanie Avalon
Is it not paradise? Is it in paradise, but it's not paradise?

Barry Conrad
Basically what you're saying makes me think of the show because long story short, these people have to get on this these flights and go to this like created manufactured world because there's going to be a catastrophe out in the real world. And the president takes like, I don't know, 10,000 people to this built world. And like it's everything's controlled like this, the weather and everything. So it made me think of that.

So if you could control, it's, it's basically in a mountain, they've created this world that looks exactly like normal city, but it's not. There's no sky, but people think there's a sky. It's all controlled. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I know this is so contrary to like our modern climate controlled everything is not good for us hermetically like we're not exposed to stressors and things like that but at the same time that's why I keep my air very cold inside I do sauna I do cryotherapy so I'm like it's like say it's like do as I I don't know.

Barry Conrad
Do as I say and as I do.

Melanie Avalon
But also, I mean, you can do it as I do. If you do it as I do, make sure you do all the other things too. Make sure you combat. One thing we don't want is to just exist in the perfect temperature all the time. That's not good for us.

Yeah, it's not good. We need those extreme temperatures and such. I just don't want the extreme temperatures while I'm seeing abandoned, singing and dressed up. That's why I don't want the extreme temperatures. I want it when I'm in a sauna, not singing or not dancing and such.

Barry Conrad
Okay. So if you had to choose between one of those concerts that you might, you're on the fence about maybe booking, which one will you go?

Melanie Avalon
I really wanted to go to Mumford and Sons because my sister's going and it would be a whole thing. Do it, do it, do it, do it.

Avril Lavigne, Katy Perry, oh, I think Katy Perry might be indoors, I don't know. Shall we break our fast, reverbially?

Barry Conrad
Let's break it proverbially. What do you got for us, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
So the restaurant I'm picking for today's restaurant, and the purpose of this segment of the show is because what, like we've been talking about, this whole conversation, what you eat and having the eating period is actually very, very important with your fasting because you get a lot of benefits from the fasting and you also need the eating period to nourish your body, grow that muscle, all the things. So I like picking restaurants from Disney World.

I'm picking this one today in honor of your story, Barry, that you posted, was it yesterday when the guy in the cab did not know about he had never been to a Mexican restaurant?

Barry Conrad
That's so funny, Melanie. Yeah, listen, I was to give you some intel, so I was basically in an Uber to a Mexican restaurant, and the Uber driver was like, hey, brother, where are you going to eat?

I'm like, having Mexican food. And then I started listening to the radio, just chilling out, and he just goes randomly. I never tried Mexican before, so it was really funny and random.

Melanie Avalon
What's so funny about this video is yes, Barry is just like selfie videoing himself singing in the car. Perfect timing. And then when he says that like the timing of it when he said it at the end, I was just dying life. I literally watched it five times in a row.

I thought it was so funny. The timing and then it just like cuts off. So I am picking the Mexican restaurant at the Epcot pavilion in Disney World. So remember how I've been telling you about the Epcot pavilion where there's all the different countries and each country has a restaurant and such. So the Mexican restaurant is called San, I probably am saying it wrong, San Angel N. It's probably the Mexican pronunciation, but San Angel N restaurante is so okay. Do you see the picture that came up?

Barry Conrad
I do. Oh, whoa, that that's beautiful. That's really.

Melanie Avalon
And if you go to the picture where you can see like the entrance, so there's water down there because there's actually a boat ride that explores the world of Mexico, as they say in it, Mexico, or I guess I guess and it's stunning. It's beautiful.

There's like Aztec structures in the background and like it's evening. It's very, very dark in there, very dark. It's really authentic Mexican food. My dad loves Mexican food. So we used to always go here. I think this is probably one of his favorite restaurants in Disney.

Yeah. So the setting is the base of 17th century Mayan ruins, a hacienda.

Barry Conrad
It looks like a set, like a film set. It's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
It does. It does look like a film set. Yeah, but it's just, it's so, I don't know. I love it.

The vibe. It's just amazing. Oh, and then if you like zoom out, which I don't think there's pictures of it here. There's not pictures. If you could see like outside of this restaurant, which is still inside, it's like, it's like a, um, it's set up like, uh, like being outdoors at this evening, Mexican. There's like little carts and like stores and it's like being outdoors. It's so, it's really pretty and there's fountains and.

Barry Conrad
Sounds great.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so shall we look at the menu?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to the dinner menu right now, checking it out. What have you got? I think I'm going to struggle.

Melanie Avalon
with this one a little bit actually no maybe

Barry Conrad
I love Mexican food by the way, haven't mentioned that to you before, I actually love it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I mean, I, yes, I think so. I'm pretty sure I think I would have, is it your, what's your favorite? Is it your favorite genre of food?

Barry Conrad
That's that this is really hard. It's really tough.

I did say what my final meal ever would be, but I think It's hard to just choose a genre because I just yeah, I love mexican love greek Love japanese. Oh, yeah I could be here all day, but I do love mexican. Do you have a favorite johner?

Melanie Avalon
Probably New American.

Barry Conrad
What would that be?

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I just know whenever I go to a new American restaurant, it's what I like. It's like steak and fish dishes and new American. It's a fusion. Oh, okay. I've never defined it, but I just know I really like it.

It's modern American cuisine or contemporary American cuisine, a wave of modernized cooking, predominantly served at upscale fine dining restaurants in the United States originating in the 1980s. It assimilates flavors from the melting pot of traditional American cooking techniques.

Barry Conrad
Hmm, okay.

Melanie Avalon
Sounds good. So it's, I'm not sure if that defined it enough, but like seasonal, okay. It's often like fresh local seasonal ingredients, focus on creative and lighter dishes, even though I like steak and such. Yeah, I think that's what I like about it.

It's often like seasonal and local, and there's always a lot of like protein options and it's like a steakhouse, but just American modernized.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Well, that tracks though, because you have a lot of stake and yeah, that makes sense from what you post.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so what would you get appetizer wise?

Barry Conrad
There's a few good ones here. There's a couple of things. Definitely guacamole. Love my guacamole.

That's gotta happen. So having some guac, I'm gonna also get the chilaquillas, which is the choice of shaved ribeye or chipotle chicken tortilla chips tossed in ranchera salsa, topped with coca cheese, crema, mexicana, and onions.

So that sounds delicious. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
I might taste the guacamole. Do they not have a shrimp cocktail? Is that not a?

Barry Conrad
No. No, it's not.

Melanie Avalon
I thought ceviche. I thought ceviche was a Mexican thing. Is it not?

Barry Conrad
I don't think it's, I don't think it's as such, but I do think a lot of modern Mexican, I think commercial Mexican food like here has a lot of kingfish and ceviche, but if this is meant to be legit, maybe it's not, I'm not too sure. And we should say the guacamole is topped with mango and toasted pumpkin seeds, served with chicharrones and salsa Valentina.

I'm just guessing that's how it's pronounced, but I'm just going with it.

Melanie Avalon
You I think it yeah I think it sounds good what you said okay it does occur in mexico.

Barry Conrad
Okay, okurr is a lie.

Melanie Avalon
Hello, Chris. Yeah. So the marinade in Mexico tends to feature tomatoes. Might have tomatoes, avocados, and tomato sauce with it.

Well, they don't have it here, so. I think I'll save my appetite for the entree. Yeah? Yes.

Barry Conrad
Okay, you go first.

Melanie Avalon
carne asada.

Barry Conrad
And you get that.

Melanie Avalon
served rare. I was debating between that and the chicken. I might get both.

Okay, the carne asada New York strip with Chipotle butter served with a tamal de raha topped with red and green salsas with a corn rice medley. So everything can just be on the side and have the carne asada you know rare by itself and then maybe also the polo a la raha raja raha grilled chicken breasts over roasted potatoes with onions poblano peppers corn and a poblano cream sauce topped with queso fresco again everything just on the side if possible

Barry Conrad
Could I have your potatoes if you're not going to eat them? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Oh, they also have a catch of the day. So it might depend what the fish is.

Barry Conrad
What if it's trout?

Melanie Avalon
I don't think they have, do they have trout in Mexico?

Barry Conrad
Yes, you know, as I was saying that I was like, is this not even a fish that they have there?

Melanie Avalon
The takeaway, I'm learning so much about the world, the takeaway on the shows that, uh, yeah, if they had trout, I would have that. I'm not sure if trout is there.

Barry Conrad
It says red snapper and Parago Rojo, a significant presence in traditional Mexican, includes a red snapper.

Melanie Avalon
red snapper yeah that's what's coming up a lot here yeah so i'll probably stick with the chicken and the steak how about you

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go for the enchiladas de polo, which is corn tortillas filled with chipotle chicken, covered with ranchera salsa, crema mexicana, cocha cheese, and crispy onion straws atop beans, served with plantains. Delicious.

Topped with crema, mexicana, and cocha cheese. And I'm also going to get the tacos because that comes with lava taco. And that comes with shaved ribeye, a choice of shaved ribeye or grilled chicken. I'm going to go for the ribeye.

Poblano and red peppers, onions, bacon, and Monterey Jack cheese, served with corn tortillas and plantains. Again, topped with crema, mexicana, and cocha. I want to see what their topping tastes like. It's a common additive on this menu.

Melanie Avalon
That sounds very adventurous.

Barry Conrad
Sounds very me.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And you know what you can get with it? What? Did you see at the bottom they have create your own margarita flight? Oh.

Barry Conrad
What? I haven't got that far yet. That's happening.

Melanie Avalon
They have a lot of drinks, but I feel like you can choose three. Is that what you would get? Would you get that?

Barry Conrad
I would absolutely, 800% get that and create my own Margarita flight. I will do. Okay. It says three LDR blood, orange, the cucumber classica, or the wild one. I'll get one. What's in the wild?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, you go look at the I see you look at it. Oh, I get you. I'm following now you pick from the

Barry Conrad
menu. This is the Classica, I feel like that's the classic, just standard. I want something spicy.

Oh, there we go, Aldiablo, that's got a cucumber jalapeno sauce, so that's going to be spicy. I'll do that one. I'll do the wild one, which is Centinella blanco tequila, combia, orange, liqueur, ginger rum, corn, passion fruit, cordial, lime juice, dos jombre, mezcal, grenadine, and hibiscus salt rim. And then one more, I'll go the Classica, just a classic as well.

Melanie Avalon
Like a nice palette cleanser.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, to end with, I should say. What drinks would you consume? Is there a wine list there?

Melanie Avalon
They don't even have a wine list, so this might be a BYOB situation.

Barry Conrad
and sneak in a little thing.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder, cause in Disney, I would have to sneak it into the park, but once it's in the park, I wonder if you can just bring in your own stuff because Disney, you can, you know, you can, you don't have to, you can drink, you can carry drinks around outside and such. Cause it's like all inside, I'm not all in, you know, it's like you're inside of a establishment type thing.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, right. That's pretty good if they do that because it's not really in Australia. It's not really It's not a thing where you can carry walk around with alcoholic drinks

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I think I'm pretty sure you can because there's booths everywhere. I mean, yeah, yeah, you have to be able to because there's like there's like walk up booths everywhere with drinks.

So would you get a dessert?

Barry Conrad
I don't know why I keep trying my luck because I know the answer of it. I just think maybe today she'll say, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
someday. I really applaud your perseverance. I think it's endearing.

Barry Conrad
Desserts I would get a couple things the brown sundaes catching my eye at first so that's a fudge brownie soda dulce de leche ice cream yum and topped with kajita sauce can I have that and then I have to have a. Yeah just maybe just the seasonal mexican flavored sorbet which is me of probably saying that incorrectly but sundae and some so.

Melanie Avalon
I can, I can answer for what I would get if I, if I ate desserts, I would get the, probably the chaseless cake. I love that whole concept.

Yeah. Do you like it? Or does it bother you? It bothers some people, like the soaked cake situation, like the milk soaked cake.

Barry Conrad
I actually made a cake, a tres leches cake with my mom a couple of years ago during Christmas. It was pretty good actually.

It was a nightmare to make though, it was a headache because the soaking and it took way longer than we thought so we were up all night doing it but it tasted pretty good. Tasted pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
that story no that was like a that was like a good that was a good sound sorry if it sounded not good i looked up i found a video of them making a trace i don't know how you say it trace leches funfetti cake once

Barry Conrad
How does I'm trying to picture how that would even look because it's

Melanie Avalon
confetti cake is the cake, and then drown it.

Barry Conrad
trying to milk one day one day you'll try it again maybe

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm getting the non-existent shrimp ceviche as my dessert that they don't have.

Barry Conrad
Imagine Melanie asking the server, could this shift just get me some?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, because is shrimp anywhere else on this menu?

Barry Conrad
I don't think so. I don't think so as well. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, no, it is. There's chipotle pepper and garlic sauteed shrimp in the Camerons a la Diablo. So shrimp is in the house. I feel like, can I get some shrimp?

Barry Conrad
What if they say, sorry, man, we can't, you know, it's kind of packaged with other ingredients. We can't do it separately.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Then I, then I'm just, I just, I just accept. I just give up.

Barry Conrad
Except defeat in this case you did well you chose this restaurant for my benefit, which I appreciate

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And I mean, I love the vibe. I would actually love to go here. The point is you can make any restaurant work, I think.

Yep. I thought, I thought, I don't actually, for me, I could not make a vegan restaurant work. That's the only thing I could not make work for me.

I could go. I just wouldn't, there wouldn't be anything to eat. That's okay, though.

Barry Conrad
I mean, it just wouldn't be anything good or fun, but I mean, there's vegetables and stuff, right?

Melanie Avalon
No, like, because I wouldn't. So if I'm like having my meal, like I need.

Barry Conrad
food. He sounded very, like, very passionate just then.

Melanie Avalon
So like, basically, I wouldn't want to just eat vegetables, it would just make me hungry and so I would just at a vegan restaurant, I would just rather, I'm totally down to go, I would just, I'm going for my sister's graduation, I would just rather not eat there, I sound obnoxious, I'm not obnoxious, I promise.

Barry Conrad
No, you're not obnoxious. You just, you don't want to be like, like angry and angry if you can't eat the things that you know that you need, right?

Melanie Avalon
You nailed it. Like I would just be, yeah, it would just make me more hungry. So yeah, okay. Well, we should definitely go here.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'm about it. I love Mexican food so much. I'm so down for that.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. Okay, well, this is super fun. Friends, thank you so much for listening.

If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 425. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
No, everybody have an amazing rest of your day. Thank you for tuning in and we'll catch you next time. See you, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
I'll talk to you next week. Bye.

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 421 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, Intermittent Fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with a very special listener guest today. We've been doing some episodes in this listener guest series, and it is just so, fun because for so long, for years and years and years, I've been doing this show and putting out content for everybody. And now I feel like it's time to actually talk with you guys and get your stories and hear your thoughts and your fasting experience. So I am just loving doing this. And today's guest has such an incredible story. I'm here with Pamela Wakeman. She is from Arizona, and she has a really incredible story about her fasting journey, and in particular, how it really helped her with navigating menopause and a lot of the symptoms that go with that. And she has so many experiences. So I have so many questions for her. And, and actually, to start it off, Pamela, when I was reading your story that you sent in, I thought it was so funny. So basically, you first found intermittent fasting because you thought Dr. Minnie Peltz's book fast like a girl was about running. What happened there?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, well, because yes, definitely I have been running long distance events for, you know, like a decade and I'm always looking for women focused sort of coaching. And I want to say there's even a blog that I was following before I moved to Colorado before I moved to Arizona. So maybe it was like 15 years ago now.

But I thought it was called Fast Like a Girl. And that's how I like Google that. And I came up with Mindy Pels book. But it wasn't until I actually heard her on Mel Robbins podcast that I understood like what she was really about.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I love that. Did you listen to my interview? I interviewed her on my other show, or was it this show, my other show, I think.

Pamela Wakeman
It was, I think it was a show. Let me Google really quick. She's definitely going to be a fasting lady.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I actually I had her on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, she was really, really great.

The work that she does is so profound and like we were talking about the beginning, she really understands adopting fasting for, for women's hormones and things like that. The beginning of your fasting journey. So you were exposed to her content. Did you, how did you feel? Were you skeptical? Were you excited? Did you immediately jump in? How did you start?

Pamela Wakeman
I had a boss, the manager at work mentioned to me about his fasting experience and it sounded kind of out there at the time. And I thought, good for him, those are pretty lofty goals.

As a couple of years had gone by, I started to have issues from everything from joint pain to hip issues to carpal tunnel syndrome, tennis elbow. I mean, it was all like one thing after the other after the other. And I was not the type of person who had these issues in the past. I had running injuries, but these were all unrelated and coming out of nowhere. And so I started to seek out ways that I could sort of help myself. And so when I heard Mindy talking about healing yourself through fasting, it put a whole different lens on fasting for me. It wasn't about weight loss, which I definitely had through menopause, I was gaining weight faster than I ever had, which was also surprising and a little scary. But the fasting in terms of inducing autophagy, this was incredibly interesting to me. And I thought, I need to try this right away because I was just about to have another hip surgery.

And I was thinking to myself, maybe I could have avoided this had I already had delved into fasting and multi-day fasting to be able to regenerate cells and restore my metabolism or reset as Minnie Pels likes to say. So yeah, I jumped in. Short answer, I jumped right in and started and built my way up to a 16-8 fast. And then I had been following her for about three months. And then she hosted a 72-hour fast at the beginning of the year, January. And I thought, oh boy, is this even safe? Like I started to question how I was even going to make it through. Because there's all these preconceived ideas of what going without food means in our society. I'm raising, she's 19 years old now, but at the time, my daughter was having issues navigating our diet culture and looking a certain way and feeling a certain way in your clothes.

And every time some of those thoughts that I had grown up with would come out of my mouth, and she would just look at me like, what is wrong with you? You can't say these things anymore. Like you can't go without food for a certain amount of time. And I'm like, but wait, this is under a different lens now. We're not talking about going without food because we are trying to lose weight and we just want to tough it through and get to the next day. And then just go and eat the same diet or eat the same kinds of foods that you were eating before. This is about you are emotionally and mentally aware of what you're doing. You're not doing it to punish yourself. You're doing it to unlock the power of your body to be able to heal itself. And sure, drop some fat or burn some fat, which is like a whole different viewpoint from losing weight. Losing water weight and losing muscle comes from dieting in an unhealthy way or in a way that's dysfunctional.

Pamela Wakeman
My daughter was in our society pushes forth, but this ability to sort of trigger ketosis and use those ketones to burn body fat. I mean, this was just so intriguing to me.

And trying to share it to my daughter as it was like, they were even skeptical because they were like, this doesn't sound healthy. This sounds scary. You shouldn't do this. So I really had to dive in and understand the science behind it before I could go back and talk to them about it more fully.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so many things there. Did your daughters come around to your perspective or how did that end up?

Pamela Wakeman
You know, my youngest is still of the mindset where she feels like she's young and she can, you know, wants to eat whatever she wants because she's young and doesn't want to deprive herself. And so, like, I feel like we've kind of met in the middle where she feels, you know, like she still wants to eat certain foods, but, like, she understands what those foods now can do to her metabolism. And so, she's making a conscious choice not because she feels entitled, because, you know, she's young and her body will burn, you know, calories or have a faster metabolism, but more because she just wants to be able to experiment with different types of foods.

And as long as she's aware of what's, you know, when she can control, you know, the types of foods that she's eating, like, for instance, you know, she does want to cut out sugar now because she understands, you know, what it can do to your skin. You know, having multiple reasons beyond just losing weight to look good is really more of an intrinsic motivator than just, you know, I want to look good in my clothes. My other daughter is more, she's cutting out alcohol, so she's looking at it from a different perspective where she's just like, I'm done, you know, going out with my friends and getting drunk on the weekends and partying. I'm really going to be more actively taking responsibility for my health from a health perspective, from a I want to be cleaner. I want to eat healthier whole foods and, you know, make sure that I'm not getting any toxins, you know, in my body. So, both of them coming from different perspectives and both of them very, very important for the whole, this whole process of fasting, because there's so many different pathways to detox, to be able to allow our bodies to be able to fast, you know, most efficiently. So, I feel like I'm having impact, but it's just different for different, maybe different age ranges, probably.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting. And I don't think I'll ever have kids.

One of the reasons I don't want to is I don't want to deal with the issue or the challenge of raising them the way I would want them to live with health choices and things like that, but also supporting, you know, personal freedom and agency. And literally, I just, it's just too much for me to deal with. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.

Pamela Wakeman
No, it's totally a lot. I was running under my, I could hear my parents' voices in my head as I was hunting my kids.

And then it wasn't until, I mean, I went through a divorce and I started to become my own person. I was going through menopause. I was really understanding who I was for the first time. And from that lens, I could actually parent my kids in a more effective way, I think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that. It's ironic because I feel, especially on my other show, I feel like I read so many books that touch on all this, so I'm learning a lot, but I don't think I'll ever actually practically implement it.

And something I think about a lot actually is, so this is not fasting, and I'm not endorsing fasting for kids. It's, you know, 18 or older, but food choices, like the healthy food choices you make, I also feel conflicted about that because on the one hand, I wish, like I wish I had been raised eating like non-processed foods and whole foods and healthy foods, but I ate, you know, all the junk. And it's like I have all these really great memories involving like junk food. So it's this weird dichotomy of like having fondness surrounding these foods that I no longer eat, wondering what it would have been like if I'd never eaten them. It's just really intriguing. It's interesting to think about.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, like the other day, I mean, like when I was growing up, my dad would be like, don't eat all that cool whip, you know, because it's bad for you, it's full of sugar. But like now I see on like ketogenic, like blogs or whatever, they'll have recipes with like, not you know, sugar free cool whip, like make these great desserts. And like you can eat the whole tub. It's like, Oh, awesome.

Like, you know, it's, it's again, a whole different point of view. Like you want the fat in your diet now you want to be able to, you know, feel satiated, and we do need fat in our diet to do that. So that does, you know, bring up like the conjure up like the old junk foods of yesteryear.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and speaking of the food, and your personal diet, the foods that you've eaten historically and then when you started fasting, how did that change for you personally?

Pamela Wakeman
When I first heard Mindy talking, she would say, talk about this story about this man that she was training or she was coaching and how he would eat the same foods, but just in a smaller eating window. And so to me, I guess I wanted to start that way so I wouldn't feel like I was really dieting or making a huge life change all at once. So I didn't change much of my diet. I just compressed my eating window.

And then as I started to maybe drop a few, I started to gain momentum and think, oh, well, it's working. What else can I do to make it even more effective? And so I started to learn about detoxing my body from I started to eat more meat, but I realized that the kind of meat I was eating had to be a little bit cleaner, couldn't just go out and eat any ribeye. It really should be a grass-fed, grass-finished ribeye if I'm going to be able to eat the whole thing and have the fat be of benefit to my body versus pulling in all the chemicals from the pesticides that the cattle eat. So that started to just build on itself. So I stopped eating grains because grains, again, are one of those foods that are sprayed with toxic chemicals.

And I started to replace these foods with other foods that had more protein because having already been clued into the fact that women in menopause have to have even more protein in their diet from reading the book Roar, which is about women who are active, very active, and want to keep staying active even through menopause. There are protein needs that you have to, you really have to maintain. So just finding foods that have more protein and finding ways to just sneak in protein wherever I could, but still fast. So that was kind of tricky, trying to get in enough protein and still stay in a fasting state or a fasted state.

But then I went all into what am I cooking with and how am I cooking these foods? I'm cooking with pots and pans that have Teflon all over them and I'm storing them in plastic containers and I'm using aluminum foil to cook on when I barbecue. It's things like that. It's like, oh, wait a minute. These things are impacting how the nutrition of the food is actually being absorbed in my body or not being absorbed for that matter. So I had to make big changes in the kitchen to get rid of the plastics and the toxic kitchen cookware.

And then beyond that, then it led into, and I know you're familiar with this, the cosmetics, cleaner cosmetics, because I'm living in Tucson where it's really dry. So I'm using all creams, moisturizers where I'm using a lot of it. So is it clean or is it full of different kinds of chemicals that impact my hormonal system? So yeah, everything is impacting the way my body reacts to the foods ultimately that I'm eating, because if the foods aren't able to find a way into my cells because they're blocked by toxins, then I'm not doing the best that I can do for my body.

But this took a while. It took a good year to figure out. Had I known all this at the very beginning, it probably would have been too overwhelming, and I might have stalled out and not continued on with it.

Pamela Wakeman
So I'm glad that I had the chance to just ease my way into it and learn about all this slowly and through different people. Mindy Pels was one person, and ultimately I did actually get a certification with her to be a coach for Fast Like a Girl so that I can help other women enter into that lifestyle.

But also, it's good to have lots of different teachers and really vary the different teachings and understand things from different perspectives, because there's so much out there and a lot of it is conflicting, and to weed through it is tricky. So you have to view it from the lens of your life and what's reasonable for you, or else you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.

Melanie Avalon
You are touching on something that I think so many people experience, and this happened to my friend really recently, which is that when you start this health journey, you said something about how it's a good thing that you weren't exposed to all this information right at the beginning because you would have been overwhelmed. And I think that happens so often with people.

If they want to make change, they can almost feel stuck. If they realize all the things they need to change compared to it being an evolving journey where at least for me personally, what I experienced and what I think a lot of people experience and I'm hearing with you is that when you find it's kind of like the gateway drug, but like the thing that works like fasting for you and you feel the difference and you feel the benefits, then you get excited about everything that you get to learn. And then you can slowly tackle all the things. At least for me, it was like, oh, okay, now what can I do next? And so I really think people can switch that mindset from a potential fear-based mindset of all the things they have to do to one of empowerment of all the things they get to do on their own timeline, on their own pace, or at their own face. Was that sort of your experience? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
In fact, more recently, you know, when I was listening to your podcast, Vanessa was talking about autophagy and she was citing a study where, and I hope I get this right and do her justice, but she had said that there is the same amount of autophagy or to trigger the same amount of autophagy from a 72-hour fast, you can get the same amount or same effect from doing a 30-minute strength or resistance training workout, which is like to me, like that says, okay, so now after I've been on this fasting journey, I'm learning something new that maybe I don't want to do like, maybe my, I can do like a 72-hour fast a couple of times a year, but maybe I don't want to do them off more often than that. And in, you know, to replace that or in addition to that, I can do some, you know, I can really get more resistance training in and kind of extend the amount of time that I was doing it to get the same effect.

That to me kind of blows my mind because, you know, now I have two different tools at my disposal that I can use to get the kind of healing that I'm looking for. And yeah, I think that the more you kind of dive into this world, the more tools you find and the more varied they are, I think that's important because your body needs to, from what I understand, your body really needs to switch it up and to be, you know, confused a little bit so that it has to adapt and learn something new. And then that adaptation kind of makes those changes in your body. And that's where you start to see, you know, the physical changes too.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Vanessa, she's amazing at finding all of these incredible studies, especially around things like protein and autophagy and training. And yeah, I vaguely remember her talking about that one. Something else you touched on that I love is the exposing yourself to different ideas. I think this is so important, like always having an open mind and, you know, engaging with all different ideas and perspectives.

And it's interesting. So one I got reminded of when you were talking was, and we haven't aired this yet at the time of us personally recording, but by the time this episode comes out, it will have aired. So episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman, who's well known for the Forks Over Knives documentary and some books surrounding that. He co-wrote the Whole Foods diet with John Mackey, who is the former CEO and founder, co-founder of Whole Foods. And he has a company called We Be Calm, but he's really amazing and he's very much in the vegan sphere. He brought up actually the concept of toxins and animal fat. And I was saying, well, we could eat, you know, grass fed, grass finished and things like that. And then he was saying, well, no, actually there's not much difference between the toxins and grass fed, grass finished versus conventional because of how saturated these persistent organic pollutants are. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting. So maybe, maybe we should, well, A, I need to look into that more and B, maybe that means we should actually leaner meat, you know, regardless. And so then for episode 414, which I realized comes before that, but we recorded it out of order. You'll have to listen to that episode because we, I went down the rabbit hole trying to find the studies on this. It wasn't very promising, basically, basically there, there does seem to be on the one hand, there does seem to be similar compounds in animal fat, even if it's grass finished organic. I do think it's slightly less, but either way it sounds like going leaner with the meat in particular can actually reduce your exposure to those compounds. But then it's ironic because then there's things like fish where the main, you know, problem with fish is mercury. And that's actually preferentially stored in protein, not in fat. So going leaner with fish doesn't really address the mercury problem. It's so, and the reason I bring this up is because like you were saying, there's so much information out there and so many different conflicting perspectives that, well, A, to tie into the earlier theme, it could be overwhelming or B, it could be empowering because it means, you know, we're always learning and we're always finding what works for us personally. Yeah. So I'm not trying to scare people away from eating, you know, fatty, grass fed, grass finished meat. I personally still think it's really healthy. So I differ a little bit, but it was a really interesting conversation. You'll have to listen and let me know what you think.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, because I mean, one of the cool things about Mindy Pels was that she took it beyond just the fast like a girl, and she just recently released a book called Eat Like a Girl, and it really is composed of a lot of vegan or vegetarian recipes, which I wasn't expecting. I was expecting, I guess, because of the focus on protein, I was expecting more meat-based meals.

So when I started to make these foods, I was like, well, this is way out of my comfort zone, number one, because I wasn't, I'm not a vegetarian. But number two, it exposed me to the possibilities of eating more vegetarian meals, because I don't, like I wasn't, I'm just not familiar with like, eating things like tofu and tempeh, and just understanding how to prepare these foods so that they're not like going to attack your, you know, metabolism, like, you know, the different toxins that come from eating plants, like that I wasn't even aware of before I learned about this, you know, the things that kind of create different blockages in your body, like spinach and kale, I guess I used to think, okay, the more the better and now I'm like, okay, but not if it's not cooked, oxalates, yeah, oxalates, don't cook it too much, you know, cook it enough where you're breaking down the oxalates so that you know, you can eat some of these foods for the nutritional value. So it's, it's, again, it's tricky understanding just based navigating the foods that you eat, and which ones are safest to eat, and which ones you really have to understand how to prepare them or pair them with other foods in order for them to be, you know, the safest way to eat them. So yeah, I've gone from like, learning about fasting to now I'm getting into, you know, the nutrition side of things and the strength training side of things. So it's, it's just evolving, which is why I guess I consider myself like, recreational bio hacker, because I'm trying these different things without, you know, too much like concern about like, the effects, like, I just want to see what will happen and then, you know, kind of pivot from there.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that approach. That is something I remember from interviewing and reading her book, Dr.

Peltz is she's, she's on the lower protein side of things, which I personally, I mean, I feel like it's obvious if people listen to this show, we, I just think a focus on protein is so, so important. I just think it's the most nourishing thing for our body, especially when it's paired with fasting, because, you know, you have the, the fasting period to reduce MTOR and IGF-1, these signaling pathways for growth and stimulate, like you were mentioning, autophagy and stimulate all these repair systems in the body. And then when you eat, that's when you're doing the actual repair and you need that protein for, for not only for growth of muscle and support muscle mass, which is so key for health and longevity and metabolic health, but also for just hunger. Like, you know, a lot of people struggle with hunger and there's, you know, this protein leverage hypothesis that we will feel hungry until we meet our protein needs. So yeah, protein is definitely one where there's all different opinions. How much protein do you try to get daily?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I don't really track. I mean, I kind of like look at the foods that I have and I know kind of in my head, like how much a serving has. And so I kind of, I don't kind of, I do have, I have an issue with hunger. So I really do actually take in probably more than maybe somebody else who like my husband, for instance, he's like, he, I mean, again, he's men and women fast differently and metabolize differently. So I don't mean to compare the two, but I definitely see a difference in our hunger levels.

And so I definitely need to eat additional protein to get, you know, to feel satiated. And, you know, I was doing butter in my coffee for a while. And, and I think for a while, like it worked, but then I found that, you know, it was probably an added calorie intake that maybe I didn't need. And that I, if I, you know, fat, maybe with more fat with my first meal around lunchtime that I was, you know, that was okay. That was a different sort of sort of composition of a meal versus having the fat early in the day. Cause I did want to have benefit from the, the, the fasted workout. I like the fasted workout. I it's, I don't work out for very long cause I don't have a lot of time, but I, you know, from, from what I'm learning, you don't really have to work out for very long if you're, if you're doing, you know, targeted exercise. So I feel like a fasted workout feels really good, you know, for my body. So yeah, no more butter in my coffee, but I'm still doing the MCT oil in my coffee. I love that. I love the creaminess of it. It just gives it a different taste and texture. It feels a little bit more like a kind of a meal. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, but then I definitely like scoops of cottage cheese or grass fed, you know, Greek yogurt later on with, I guess in the evening, I'll have that with berries to, you know, kind of calm down for the evening and feel full. And so that I can have a good night's sleep too. That helps.

Melanie Avalon
well. Cottage cheese and berries are two of my favorite things. That's amazing. I love that.

Well, actually, okay, where do I want to go from here? So, well, I wanted to touch on something that you, so you mentioned earlier about your daughter trying the not drinking thing. I feel like the whole sober curious movement is very popular right now. In your intake form, you're talking about, what were you saying about, about alcohol?

Pamela Wakeman
haul that I guess about six months into my fasting I started hearing about dry farm wines and I was like oh I'm all over that you know because now I can drink wine and not feel guilty about it or whatever you know the sugar you know was it was not the added sugar that you would get from just a wine off the shelf and I never really paid much attention I would just get whatever wine was you know affordable at my local you know a wine shop or whatever but then I started doing the dry farm wines and I really enjoyed it but I realized that for me personally it was too much that I needed to just in general I needed to cut back on any alcohol not all but definitely during the week and like really be mindful of what I was taking and like you know going to restaurants and all their beautiful cocktail menus it was like you know okay you know there were like treats and you know instead of a dessert I would have a cocktail I'm like what am I doing like this is this is this is too much it just feels like too much and it feels like I'm standing still like I'm not I'm making all these progress forward with with fasting and with you know healing my body and then I'm going and you know drinking these drinks that I don't really need but I'm doing it because it looks fun and you know I want to relax on the weekends and so I just had to find different ways like different alternative drinks like kava drinks and adaptogenic drinks to kind of replace you know because I still had that habit of like maybe going for a cocktail in the evening but just replace it with something a little bit less less alcohol because the so many calories and alcohol I was just I felt like I was just like I wasn't progressing forward so it for me it was really a blocker that I had to address and I hear people talk about like oh we should only have a glass of wine at night it's like a glass like who has a glass of wine I always have like at least two glasses of wine like and that is like you know if it's like 200 calories of glass then like that's my whole workout today and like I'm not working out so that I can burn calories so I can have more wine like this is not what this is supposed to be this is about moving forward and getting you know for longevity sake now you know this is about feeling better not just standing still so I I guess I fought it for a long time Melanie I wanted to keep my wine and keep my tonics and I had to finally admit that this is what was holding me back so I just think that you know the women that I coach I I'm going to be part of it like oh you should probably cut out you know cut down on your alcohol no you should really cut down on your alcohol but you know of all the drinks that I love the most you know I do love the dry farm wine

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I obviously love this topic. And I think it's so individual. And people really have to know themselves and find what works for them.

And the dry farm wines piece is, if you are drinking, it's such a key, it's such a key difference. Because if I were to drink because I do drink wine every night. And if I, if I were to drink conventional wine, I would just feel horrible. And I can't believe I was like, I was in a phase like in college. And after when I was just drinking like cheap wine all the time. And I literally could not do that. Now I would feel so unwell the next day.

So I have to stick to my, my dry farm wines. I actually even went, it's funny yesterday, I went to total wine and more I was like, I'm going to see if I can find wines that seem to meet dry farm wines criteria, which is organic, low alcohol, 12.5% or less free of added sugar free of added sulfites. I wouldn't be able to know if it was tested for mold and toxins and all that stuff. I literally stood in the aisle, I was probably there for like, and I knew where to go. I was like, I'm gonna go to the French section, I'm gonna look at the Loire Valley, I'm gonna find like a low alcohol gamay. That's organic. Like I got this. I was there for like 45 minutes and couldn't find anything. So yeah, there's definitely something special to dry farm wines if you are drinking. The thing I was thinking from your format you're filling out was you were saying, because I'm glad you put this in here, because I have heard people say this, which is that drinking alcohol will hijack the liver for detox for the next 22, 72 hours. So the body will not use the fasting window to burn fat.

So I don't know where that idea started. I think maybe that's the case for some people. I can say definitively, at least from my experience that at the very least, it's not always true. And the reason I know that is because I have had a glass of wine every night with the exception of I did try not drinking for a year to see if I felt any better. I did not. So I was like, well, we tried that. I know that I've pretty much had a glass of wine every night for like a decade, minus that one year. And during that decade, I have definitely gained and lost weight. So that negates that idea always being true, if that makes sense. Like basically, I know I've lost weight. I know I burn fat while having wine in the evenings.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, and it feels like you should, right? Because it's like not a sugar alcohol.

I mean, it's a sugar alcohol, but it's not the added sugar, right? Like so you, it really is just the alcohol the liver is burning down or breaking down.

Melanie Avalon
which it would burn first, too.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah and if your body's used to like the same amount like every night I feel like your body adapts so it's probably breaking it down quicker that's my opinion because I guess on days where you drink more and where you know where you've had more than you normally would then maybe that would would be the case you need extra time to recover or your your liver would have more time that it needed to recover but then you could also take some charcoal activated charcoal and that could help you know speed things along too which I totally believe in now since I've been using that you know when I eat things like lots of carbs that I didn't mean to eat but you know they were the only thing that was available or something like that.

Melanie Avalon
I think we might have talked about that on the show, that idea before. It's really interesting.

I mean, it does make me think, cause I recently interviewed, I haven't aired it yet, but Dr. Kate Shanahan, I had her on the show again. She's the one who wrote deep nutrition and the fat burn fix. And then her most recent book is called dark calories. She's the person who really made the whole idea of seed oils being a problem. She's the one who kind of shown the flashlight on that in the beginning and is continuing to do so. But she does talk a lot in that book about how, you know, some people with metabolic issues and insulin resistance and stuff, how they almost like never burn fat, they're pretty much, you know, always burning sugar. So I could definitely see situations where with certain signaling, certain people may not burn fat in the fast. So I can see, basically I can see how it might be a thing, but I don't, but saying like, Oh, if you drink, then you're not going to burn fat for 72 hours. That's just not a true statement, like across the board for everybody.

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, okay. That's good to know. I'm glad that you brought that up because that was a fear of mine for sure.

Melanie Avalon
You heard of Z-biotics? Yes. Mm-hmm. Sure. I'm obsessed with them too. I just found them sort of a few months ago and they're super cool. It's like a GMO probiotic that breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the toxic byproduct of alcohol in the stomach. It's... Yeah, I love that. But in any case, I super applaud you for knowing what works for you and, you know, really it requires a lot of self-awareness and commitment. So, kudos to you.

What type of cava do you have?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I was drinking, I was trying Trucava, which is a product that was on store shelves. It's like a soda, but I already use element, element tea for hydration. So I thought, you know, I could make a cocktail out of element tea and soda water and cava and kind of create my own concoctions so that I could have different flavors when I wanted them and just experiment with like different dosages of the cava, so it would be like a tincture of cava from, you know, health food store and just see what kind of effect it would have and, you know, how much I really needed to feel and to get an effect that I liked without feeling too sort of out of it, you know, because I still have things, you know, I still have to be productive even at the end of the day. So I don't want to feel like, okay, I'm done.

I'm just going to go sit on the couch now, you know? But cava, you know, ashwagandha, those are the two main ones. And yeah, I think those are the two main ones for drinks that I would use.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. There's something I want to, there's a brand, I haven't tried it yet. They're supposed to send it to me. I need to follow up because I'm dying to try it.

But they make a product called, I think it's called like hard ketones. And basically, I haven't tried it yet. But I watched their video with Tim Ferriss about it. And apparently, I didn't know this. Apparently, there's a ketone that it's not. Okay, I don't want to like say it wrong. It's like an intoxicating ketone. So like basically, it will give you a buzz. But it's not alcoholic. And it's literally just a ketone. And they've turned this into a drink. I'm very intrigued by this concept. Because I always thought of ketones as like the energy substrate, not an intoxicating type feeling, not to say we should all get intoxicated all the time, but basically getting like this, you know, this feeling that you might be desiring from alcohol, getting it from ketones in this drink. So I will report back listeners because I'm very intrigued by this brand. One thing okay, so going back to the fasting, one thing I definitely wanted to touch on is I love that you when you start so when you started fasting, you used the prep for the surgery as a way to jumpstart your fast. Is that right? Like that you had to fast anyways? Yes.

Pamela Wakeman
That's true, I did. I had a surgery coming up for my hip and the timing was such that I could use that as an opportunity because the doctors make you fast for varying lengths of time before surgery. So it seemed like, okay, I'm doing it anyway, I'm just gonna keep it going. And that concept of being able to speed up the recovery, kind of sort of that momentum kept me going.

So I didn't need any like fasted snacks or any kind of special, not special, but like I didn't take in anything else other than water because I wanted to see if this was like really going to help me heal faster. Hard to say because the surgeries these days are so, you know, amazing that, you know, especially for hips, so you're up and about in like a couple of days anyway. But yeah, I mean, I was definitely, gosh, I think I was running a race by Thanksgiving, I wanna say. So yeah, I think that, I think it definitely would have helped. I also had COVID like three weeks after. I fasted through that with element and water and slept. And so, I mean, I don't know. I definitely didn't have it for very long, maybe three days, but I had it and it went away and I felt, you know, great afterwards. So I feel like it's also a great way to sort of heal from like colds and, you know, as long as you're getting, I guess fluids, you know, I didn't feel that it was necessary to eat anything. And if it's gonna make me heal faster then what it's all the better.

Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. I loved reading that from you because it's such a similar response that I have, which is basically if there's ever something that would cause me to not be eating. So for example, like prepping for a colonoscopy or like you said, getting COVID, I'm like, yay, this, I see it as like as a, as a way to have a longer fast. It's actually sort of exciting. I mean, being sick isn't exciting and colonoscopies aren't exciting, but the longer fast is, is nice.

So I love that. It's kind of like a little hack that people can do. So for me, for example, fasting, I do the same thing fasting wise every day. And I have essentially for a decade with very little deviation. I don't think that's for everybody. I think a lot of people like you were mentioning earlier, do well with switching things up and you seem to be pretty comfortable with, you know, switching up your fast and finding what works for you. So, so how do you do that? Like how often do you switch around your fasting protocol? How planned is it versus not planned? Do you ever not fast? What is that like for you?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I definitely take a day where I don't fast. I guess I try to, for the most part, do five days of fasting and then two days I'll switch it up and it's usually the weekends.

So it depends if I'm training for something or not. I'm mainly, I'm pushed to like, I like to get to the 17 hour mark because Mindy Pels has different lengths of fast that she talks about and really has research behind. Then she says the 17 hours is really like a sweet spot for autophagy, for starting autophagy. And so I try to get at least a 17 hours, if not, you know, to 20 hours to get that effect. So sometimes I'll do like a one meal a day, if I'm not, you know, if I was one of my days and then one day I won't fast at all. That's pretty much, you know, just because I like to have dinner, you know, with my husband in the evenings, that's kind of our time to catch up. I feel like that meal, I don't want to skip on. So it's much easier to skip out, skip the earlier meals because I'm so busy during the day working. And again, I think that just switching it up is really key because yeah, I feel like the body sort of gets used to a certain like schedule of, you know, a pattern. Then the progress kind of stalls a little bit.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that you can do that so intuitively. Does your husband fast? No.

Pamela Wakeman
But I have been switching over to ketogenic cooking. And so he'll eat the dinners that I make that are keto.

But he still, yeah, he likes to have his breakfast. So he doesn't fast. But if he did, he'd probably disappear.

Melanie Avalon
He's very lean. And how do you find doing things socially? Does it ever become an issue? Do people give you grief? Do you adapt pretty easily? What is that like?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, like, socially, I'll try to save it my non fasting day for a day that I'm gonna, you know, go out with friends, I'll eat whatever, you know, is there. And, you know, right now, I'm enjoying the fact that I'm getting a lot of great Mexican food down here in Tucson, which is new for me. So I'll take advantage of that.

Yeah, I mainly like will try if it's not something that I'm planned for, I don't get grief, and it's pretty easy for me to sort of just like, if I'm going to go some to some of his house or to a party, I'll bring, you know, my own, like, food that, you know, I'm going to share, but it'll be food that I know I can eat. So that really makes it easier for me to, you know, eat, you know, while I'm there. And then, you know, I can usually have my choice of different kinds of drinks. So somehow I can I make it work. And it doesn't seem to bother anybody. I think that I did probably get well, I, my daughters say that I probably lost maybe too much weight in the beginning. Because, again, it was sort of like the momentum like just like I was just continuing continuing just to see how far I could take it. And I felt like I was doing okay. But like, they're like, when they saw me and came to visit for Thanksgiving, they're like, Yeah, you should probably like, you know, even it out a little bit now, maybe cut back a little bit on the cut fasting, because you look really good.

But you know, you don't need to lose any more weight. So, so I think there is a tipping point, you know, where, because the, the ketones or the ketosis, like, it does make you feel really good. And it does make you feel like you have a lot of energy. And so moving past a meal does kind of feel effortless. So just being mindful of the fact that like, Oh, yeah, you still need to get that nutrition in though, because that's really what's, you know, gonna make your body performance fast. So rate it rated it a little bit. You

Melanie Avalon
if you need to, yeah. Yeah, so you said you lost around 20 pounds since September?

Pamela Wakeman
Since September, yeah. I mean, I started back in, I started HRT, like your hormone replacement therapy around June. And I swim quite a bit. So I lost about 15 pounds from just the hormone replacement and the additional exercise.

And then when I found fasting, that really like was the additional, I guess, trigger that I needed to lose the extra, you know, weight that I gained over the, I guess, you know, over 20 years, I really did just sort of, because I did, didn't pay much attention. And I was raising kids and I was cooking for them. And I just didn't pay much attention to, to myself. Really, I wasn't taking care of myself. And that's one of the great things about menopause is that, you know, you do find, finally find the time to take care of yourself and realize that your importance

Melanie Avalon
I love that. And I will say to the HRT point, I recently posted in the Facebook group, a post asking people's opinion on HRT. And I don't think I have ever had so many enthusiastic responses.

Like literally, there was, well, A, so many responses, B, every single one was like shouting to the rooftops about how it changed their life. So I was like, oh, I need to dive into this some more. So I'm glad that that was really helpful for your experience.

Pamela Wakeman
I did get the same, I don't know if this is a thing, but if you've heard of this before, but I went to my doctor and she gave me a hard time. I took the hormone testing or the blood test that said you're definitely in menopause, your hormone levels definitely show signs of that you've been in menopause for a while, so it was probably 55 at the time or 54. So I thought the next, you know, obvious next step would be to go on hormone replacement therapy. It was kind of tough to get her to agree to it and so I really had to kind of go outside of my, you know, normal doctors and go online and find, you know, like an online prescriber who would be able to do that for me.

You know, there's lots of them out there now, but at the time it seemed kind of risky because I didn't know anybody else who was doing that kind of thing, but now it's just so much more prevalent because, you know, there is this hesitancy from doctors to just sort of prescribe it because of whatever risk factors that came along with like studies that were back in the 90s that had these different sort of like alerts to that women like shouldn't be taking hormone replacement therapy because of breast cancer risks or blood clotting risks and things like that. So I just felt like I was a good candidate for it. I knew my health, you know, history and I didn't have the kind of risks that they were talking about. So in order to get what I needed, I had to go outside of my normal doctors. I'm glad I did because I got the help I needed and now I'm looking for new doctors.

Melanie Avalon
I should honestly try to do an episode on this and Peter Atea, I don't know if you listen to him. You said you do. Yes. Yeah. So he has so many amazing episodes on this, which is basically, there was like this study that drew conclusions about HRT and breast cancer in women, but it was completely like just not accurate in it and how it presented the risk. And it basically made all these doctors fearful of HRT when the risks just from what, if you listen to him, you'll just be like, okay, they're just not there.

There's like really a lot of benefits that can come. And so it's interesting, especially because pharmaceuticals usually are so easy to be pushed. It's really interesting to me that it's taken so long to come back from that study and the findings of that study. Yeah. Kudos to you too. Being like, no, I need this.

Pamela Wakeman
Well, I mean, I had an x-ray when I was having my hip done and they noticed a fracture in like in my back. I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to him for any issues with my back, but he noticed this and he said, you need to go get a DEXA scan to find out what's going on there.

And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what is happening? Like, I don't understand, you know, why my bone, what's happening to me? Why are my bones suddenly like, and you know, obviously women in menopause, their bones start to, you know, there's bone density is a thing. And so I realized that taking the HRT actually is really good for bone density. And one of the best reasons to take HRT is to maintain bone density, you know, the years, you know, as you get older. So even if it wasn't for, you know, the other symptoms that I had, I might still take it just for that reason alone because of the fracture that I had in my back. So there's that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I'm so, so glad you found that out. Okay. Well, this has been so, so amazing. I think it's really, really empowering for people to hear and just like, I really, really love your mindset and approach to all of this. It's so, I love how you like seek out all these things and you try them and you find what works. It's just really, really amazing and incredible.

What would you like to leave listeners with when people ask you about intermittent fasting for people who, you know, are struggling or haven't even tried it? Like what is your, your big go-to advice or final thought for, for people on fasting?

Pamela Wakeman
It's not something to be feared, it's fasting is something that empowers you to take control of your own health instead of like leaving your health choices and decisions in the hands, all of your choices in the hands of your doctor. You do have choices that you can make on your own and this one has so many potential benefits that it's at least worth a try, you know, move into it slowly and there's no need to rush into it.

I'm one of those people who like wanted to go all in full, you know, 72 hours all at once and that will not work. It just won't work. I mean, you can power through but you'll never want to fast again after that if that's your first experience with it. That's just it's too much too soon. So definitely just try it and you might be surprised for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. I love this so much.

Well, thank you so much, Pamela. Thank you for coming here and sharing your story and all the things. It was, I really had a wonderful time. It was awesome.

And Pamela, how can people best follow your work, all the things?

Pamela Wakeman
Yes, I have a website for Pamela Wakeman Wellness, where I am a certified health coach with open source wellness. And I am also working toward my credential for board certification for health coaching.

And one of the requirements for the certification is that I offer free health coaching to anybody who is looking for health coaching or wants to try it to see if that's something that's for them. And so I thought I'd offer, you know, at least three free sessions to get them started and it's all volunteer basis. But if it's something that, you know, your audience is interested in, I definitely have, like I said, the certification for the Fast Like a Girl coaching, but I'm also health and wellness coaching. So anything under the gamut, I'm definitely, you know, able to accommodate.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So how can people do they just go to your website or how can people contact you for that?

Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, you can email me at Pamela at PamelaWakemanWellness.com or phwakeman at gmail.com. Either one will hit me and let me know if you're interested.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, congrats in advance on that.

And for listeners, we will put all of that in the show notes as well. So Pamela Wakeman, wellness.com. The show notes will be at I a podcast.com slash episode 421. And we talked about a lot of things. So definitely check out those show notes. There'll be a full transcript there as well. And if you would like to be a guest on the show, we would love, love to hear your story and have you. So you can actually go to I a podcast.com slash submit and there is a submission form there. So check out that link. And if you have questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I a podcast.com. All right, Pamela. Well, thank you again. So so much. I am sending you all the love and all the good vibes on your journey and we'll have to talk again in the future. Great. I look forward to it. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes, and artwork, library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 408 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast.  If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.  I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine.  Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine.  And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.  For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 408 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad

I'm good i'm really really good actually i feel super rested recharged how you feeling today.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad you're feeling that way. I'm hoping that like comes over to me because I love energy. And so the more, the merrier.

Barry Conrad

I'm sending it to you right now through the computer. Take it, take it, take it.

Melanie Avalon

Normally this is my vibe, like 8 o'clock PM my time, but yeah, I'm a little bit on the struggle bus. But last night I went to a restaurant which was South African.

Barry Conrad

Wow. Where was it? What was it called? What kind of food? What was the situation like?

Melanie Avalon

It's called Yibo Beach House, spelled like H-A-U-S, I think, in Buckhead in Atlanta. I only realized it was South African because like half of the wines were, it was a lot of South African wines.  Which, do you like South African wine? Have we talked about this?

Barry Conrad

We haven't talked about this, but they, I was about to say they know we, I should say, because I'm South African, we know how to do wines. It's it's really, really easy to drink.  It's paired well with like meats, especially like Springbok, Budovos, Biltong, all that.

Melanie Avalon

That was a lot of words that I don't think I, what was the first one?

Barry Conrad

Springbok.

Melanie Avalon

spring, bok, buck, like a deer.

Barry Conrad

Like yeah, exactly. So spring book is

Melanie Avalon

ringed deer.

Barry Conrad

Yeah it's actually ends but we call it like for example like a rugby team is the spring box or would like to call them the book like the book.

Melanie Avalon

And it's deer, venison.

Barry Conrad

You can eat it yeah and it's it's honestly amazing like the springbok lamb shanks wow incredible.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, wait, but that would be lamb. Now I'm confused.

Barry Conrad

Like Springbok Shanks, I should say. Kind of like Springbok. I went to South Africa a couple of years ago on a trip, listeners, and we got to stay at the safari, and they fed us like Springbok Shanks, Boudevoirs, amazing chicken paired with ones.  Boudevoirs? Boudevoirs.  Can you try to say it? Boudevoirs? Almost, yeah. You got to roll the R.

Melanie Avalon

I can't do that. Can you do that? I've heard if you don't learn how to do it, you can't ever do it.

Barry Conrad

Maybe you can go Brouwars? It's not quite the same.

Melanie Avalon

I'm not saying it again. I'm not saying it. I'm tapping out. So what is that? That word I will not say.

Barry Conrad

So the boudevoirs, the word that you are tapping out of, it's sausage.  So African sausage, we have it on, you know, like people call the barbecue, like a barbecue, we call it a braai, B-R-A-A-I, and it's like a barbecue, but way better, and we have boudevoirs on the braai, it's the best sausage you'll ever have, it's amazing, not just saying it, we have to try it together.

Melanie Avalon

I wonder if that was on the menu, I should have looked at the menu more.

Barry Conrad

What did you have then? Just the wines?

Melanie Avalon

I just drank wine. So they had a lot of South African wines, but none of them were organic. And South African wines, because of the hotter climate, I'm assuming would be higher alcohol, higher sugar. So yeah, they had one organic wine and it was my favorite white varietal.  So I was a long day. I don't even know how to say it. Milan de Bourgogne from France. It was

Barry Conrad

Like a peanut, what kind of, what does it taste similar to, like a peanut grease you?

Melanie Avalon

It tastes like melon, honestly, which I love. It's really light, fruity, melony. Melony, not Melanie. Melony.  But and something I had before, which I'm dying to tell listeners about. I literally did not plan this, but perfect segue. I interviewed recently Zach Abbott. He is the founder of a company called Zebiotics. Have you heard of this company? I haven't told me. So he made the world's first genetically modified probiotic. So the probiotic is genetically engineered. And we had a whole side topic discussion about the like the misperception of GMOs. Like they're not necessarily bad. Like the concept of like genetically engineering something or modifying something. They modify this probiotic to create the enzyme which breaks down diacetaldehyde, the toxic byproduct of alcohol metabolism. Oh, wow. Yeah. So your liver is really good at breaking that down, but the stomach cannot doesn't really have that enzyme. So according to him, a lot of like the negative effects from drinking come from the diacetaldehyde that is in the stomach because there's no enzyme to break it down because it doesn't all make its way to the liver. So this probiotic is engineered to create that enzyme. So you take it before drinking. It's called Zebiotics. It's like in a little, it's a liquid in a little like shot. You take a shot of it before drinking and it breaks down that, that toxic byproduct. So it is amazing for, if you're drinking a lot or moderately.

Barry Conrad

We need that, Mel. We need to try that. I think that's for us.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, I'm using it now, like on the regular. And now every time I go out, I take it before hand. I'm obsessed. It's like part of my protocol.

Barry Conrad

How long before you drink do you have to take the shot is it like a half an hour is like faster an hour?

Melanie Avalon

Like right before you start drinking, but it also lasts 24 hours, which is cool. And he said it produces more, like more enzyme than you could ever drink enough to, like it's enough to cover however much you're drinking, essentially. I'm noticing a difference. Like it really works. And I posted about it in my Facebook group and so many people commented saying that they've tried it and it really, they really noticed a difference.

Barry Conrad

So you feel, what do you feel when you have it compared to before when you weren't trying it?

Melanie Avalon

I just, well, I do so many other things in my like drinking protocol. So I don't really get intense hangover-y type symptoms ever.  Cause I'm like so intense with everything, but I just notice, so it's comparing it, I don't know. I drank a lot for new years.

Barry Conrad

like what

Melanie Avalon

will dry farm wines, but then they had like cheap champagne and I had some of that and it was like way too much. And I definitely noticed the next day, like not, I just would have felt that a lot more, I think, if I hadn't had that before.  So I highly recommend it. He also has one that I have not tried that turns some sugar into fiber. It like converts sugar into fiber. I have not tried that one yet.

Barry Conrad

like commercially where like people need these things because this is going to just help like your everyday life. I need to try these both of those.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, it's it's super cool. So if listeners are interested, I wonder if they ship to Australia.

Barry Conrad

Australia was about to ask.

Melanie Avalon

Probably not. But maybe. Actually, I don't know. I feel like with their regulations and stuff, we should check.

Barry Conrad

Does it come like refrigerated in the start of the year? Probably, I don't know if it would.

Melanie Avalon

it's not refrigerated, it's shelf stable. Yeah. But in any case, listeners, if they would like to try it, they can go to Melanie Avalon.com slash Z Biotics. So it's Z B I O T I C S. Use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off.  Definitely check that out. Literally, like I said, it is part of my protocol now, not every night because of the cost of it, but on nights that go out for sure.

Barry Conrad

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to jump on that train. It's super cool.

Melanie Avalon

Anything new in your life before we jump into topics?

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I've I've actually been revisiting like a book that I have read before it's called atomic habits. Have you heard of that book?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, that's one of my favorite books. It's shocking how long that book was on the New York Times bestseller list. It just never left the list. It just stayed there.

Barry Conrad

Yeah. And listeners, if you don't know about this book, it's by James Clear. And it's basically about habits, but not just a generic way of explaining it. It's about small, consistent daily habits over time, rather than a big, dramatic one. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And making it easy and more identity based. So for example, rather than saying, I can't have that to eat. It's like, well, I'm a healthy person kind of a thing. So basically, creating more of a structure around your life. So you don't need the self control, basically making it hacking your habits in a way. And so I think it's super cool. Because, I mean, Mel, you and I talked about this a while ago, how, like, there's more freedom and structure. I really think that I've always lived that way. And this book is all about that.  And even if you were to tie it back to, like, even like intermittent fasting, it's the same sort of thing. Like the structure of having a fasting or eating window. And just remember the decision fatigue. And we're not making choices all day. So I think it's such a good book. I love it. It's a really, really good book for any time of year. So I highly recommend that. Listeners, please check it out, Atomic Habits by James Clear.

Melanie Avalon

I love that so much. I actually, I think that's the one that I, wait, is that the one that I cried at the end? Wait, have you finished it?

Barry Conrad

I've read it once before, but I'm going through it again, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Do you remember at the end, does he talk about mindfulness and stuff? Is that how it ends? Okay. Yeah. I cried. How are you consuming it? I usually...

Barry Conrad

Consuming having it with like a knife and fork no I usually I usually listen audiobook for nonfiction but this one I kind of wanted to sit down and read something because it was getting distracted a lot and I wanted to kind of block things out some reading it the paperback.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I listened to it and him reading the ending. I was crying. I was like, what am I doing?

Barry Conrad

What about the ending made you cry? Like, why, what do you think? That was probably.

Melanie Avalon

probably like 2018, it's probably like six or seven years ago, something about just how motivating it was. It was really inspiring.  Yeah, I love what you said about it's really great for something like working on habits surrounding fasting and things like that. It's funny, I actually thought about you last night because I was talking with one of the girls and we were talking about, because you just mentioned the freedom and structure concept, and we were talking about making plans. And I was talking about how I feel safe when there were plans. I need plans to feel in control of life and feel safe and feel good and have freedom. And she was saying that the idea of planning something is horrible. It makes her feel constricted and horrible and want to run away. And it's so interesting that people can have completely different feelings about that.

Barry Conrad

I'm with you. There's more freedom in that because you can always divert from the plan, but not having a plan is kind of like, Oh, what's going to happen?  Okay, let me zoom out for a second. I think in certain situations, not all situations, if you're hanging out with people on the day and you're kind of just having a day all day, like I'd go with the floor and whatnot. But if I'm scheduling a specific time or whatever, I'd love to just schedule that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, same. We were talking about the example of like, I love making future plans. Like I have, you know, my guests are scheduled out through 2026. I have like theater shows scheduled out to go to through like the whole year.  And she was saying that the idea of like making a plan to see a show in May is just like the worst, you know, like really, she does not like that concept. And I

Barry Conrad

That is really interesting. And that's actually so far in the future.  I don't think I'm that, I don't know if I'm that well versed in the planning, but I think, you know, maybe it's going to inspire me to do that more. Because sometimes I can see if something's so far in the future, I'm like, am I going to be around? And you kind of get like trepidation or fear about like, what if I'm going to miss out on something else? But sometimes it's good just to be, well, it is good just to be certain and just, you know, decisive and just plan it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's kind of like what you said. You don't have, you know, once the time comes, things can change.  But if I don't plan it, then, and it's something I want to do, then I don't know that I actually might be able to do it unless I put it down on my calendar. Yep.

Barry Conrad

I'd love to see your calendar. It's probably like so crazy, like just dates everywhere, writing everywhere, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Melanie Avalon

It makes me happy. It's my favorite thing. Okay. Shall we jump into some intermittent fasting related things?

Barry Conrad

Julian on Facebook says, I just recently started implementing black coffee with MCT oil in the morning during a fasted state. I usually also take seropeptase during that time as well.  Would it be fine to take both MCT oil and seropeptase simultaneously? I want to make sure the MCT oil didn't interfere with the seropeptase since it's helped my sinuses drastically.  Also, if I'm having black coffee with MCT oil, would I still be in the fasted state? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you. All right, Julian, thank you so much for your question. So it's a pretty simple answer.  Well, first of all, about being in the fastest state with the MCT oil, this is heavily debated as it has been for eons and eons. On this show, consistently, we do believe, well, actually, Barry, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Historically, we believe that having anything caloric, especially something like MCT oil, like fat, would, quote, break the fast, because you're taking in calories. People say that MCT oil doesn't break the fast because it's a type of fat that's immediately, essentially, shuttled to the liver for energy, and it supports the production of ketones. So people will say that it's supporting the fasted state because it's just creating more ketones and running on fat. I believe, though, you're taking in calories, it is a food, so I do not consider black coffee with MCT oil still being in the fastest state. I would see it as being in a state fed on MCT oil and still producing ketones like the fasted state, but not actually being fasted. What are your thoughts on that, Barry?

Barry Conrad

I 100% agree. I mean, it has calories, so that technically it's going to break your fast. So, you know, if you're wanting to do, if you're someone that subscribes to like a modified fast approach, which some people say, because you want mental clarity or energy without spiking insulin too much, go ahead. But I personally, and I know that you feel the same way, it's not really the clean fast.  It's going to break your fast. Do you know what I mean? So I'm on that team for sure. I'd skip the MCT all and just, you know, just have it during the faster window. I mean, just, just have it during eating. We know, I should say, let's do that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, and when I add MCT oil it actually for me would always make me hungrier when I would experiment with that I don't know. Have you experimented with adding MCT oil to your coffee ever?

Barry Conrad

You know, during the bulletproof craze, I've introduced butter and whatnot, but not MCT oil so much. Is it much different? Like the feeling or the taste or the effect, having a bit of butter?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it is. It is pretty different because the butter is a long chain triglyceride. So it's like a saturated fat that has to be broken down, digested, you know, turned into energy. And then like I was saying before, MCT oil, especially there's like, there's the C8 and the C10 version, and I would always get the C8 version, which is even quicker in how it is metabolized and turned into ketones. So it does provide like much faster energy.  The taste is different because butter has like a buttery taste, MCT oil tastes. I love the way it tastes. I actually used to put in my food sometimes. It's a very neutral taste.

Barry Conrad

your food.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah when i was doing like low carb for a while i would just add a lot of empty oil so i feel like it really makes the food i don't know i love it i love the taste of it.

Barry Conrad

Is this kind of like when you would have the rotisserie chicken that phase? Like when you put the amputee over that or not really?

Melanie Avalon

Not that they actually back then I was doing a lot of coconut oil, which has MCTs in it, but it's primarily that that's a misconception. People think coconut oil is like all MCTs. It's not. It's like a small, a little bit of it is MCTs, but the majority of it is actually lauric acid.  A majority of it is lauric acid, which is a long chain fatty acid. No, this was after, after that phase. But when I would do like, I just went through a stint where I was doing like low carb, quote, high fat, but it was high MCT oil fat. I actually think that's a good hack for people if what they're doing isn't working and they're doing low carb, but they still want to do low carb and they don't want to try like a carb approach. I think switching out all your fats for MCT oil or even just like removing your fats and just adding a little bit of MCT oil can actually be a way to try to break a plateau or get weight loss going again.

Barry Conrad

Right. Julian, if you're in doubt, the rule of thumb, the best way to approach it is black coffee, water, black tea.  If you're having to flirt with anything else, if it has calories, it's going to break your fast. Just keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

I agree with you Barry so much like people stress a lot about all the different things to like the perfect, you know, fasting supporting drink or supplement or do you want to add amino acids? Do you want to add these different pre-workout things and really friends like coffee and tea are just like the work so well.  Yeah, we love peak tea around here. They actually have a fasting tea that they made in collaboration with Dr. Jason Fung. The bergamot one is just pure organic black tea. And so again, Dr. Jason Fung helped formulate that to help support fasting. So listeners can actually get 10% off when you go to peaklife.com slash IF podcast, that's P-I-Q-U-E-L-I-F-E.com slash IF podcast. That's on the tea front. And then hopefully we're recording a little bit in advance, but hopefully by the time this comes out, my glow coffee will be hopefully on its way. So plug for that. We're creating that to be the highest CGA content coffee possible and CGA is the antioxidant, which is one of the main antioxidants that gives coffee all of its health benefits. So we specifically searched and sought out beans that are high naturally in CGA. And then we roast them, especially to be high in CGA. And then we third party lab test the coffee to make sure it's free of toxins and mold and pesticides and all the things. And actually over the holidays, Barry, I wish you could have been there. This was so fun. We did a blind taste test with like six of my friends and we tasted it against two other coffee brands that are similar to see what people liked the most. I was happy with the results. We tasted three coffees. It was neck and neck with one of them for being the crowd favorite. And then the other one people did not like as much.

Barry Conrad

That's amazing. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon

Is there like a profile of coffee that you like?

Barry Conrad

Not too bitter, but I don't love too light. It's got to still give me that kick. Like I love actually tasting the coffee. So somewhere probably profile wise, mid to strong, I would say.  Yeah. I need to try some of it when it comes out when it's ready. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon

or like wrapping up right now, like the art and yes. And I love the way it tastes.  It's lighter to medium. It does have like some fruity notes and acidity to it, but it does have like a nutty flavorful finish as well. It tastes really good. It was half of the people's favorite out of all the three.

Barry Conrad

It's so exciting, I can't wait to try it.

Melanie Avalon

I'm excited too. You and I were talking offline, just while we're talking about drinks and pre-workouts breaking the fast.  What did you get asked recently from somebody about a drink breaking the fast?

Barry Conrad

somebody asked me the other day, they were like, if I drink this, I'm not going to say the brand, this zero sugar energy drink, will that break my fast? Because, bro, it's like, it's energy. So, and it has no sugar. So, surely, that'll be fine.  I'm like, bro, it's not fine. It's going to break too fast.  It has calories. It's besides the point. Do you get asked that?

Melanie Avalon

Yes. And there's just so many, I like shutter when I look at those drinks, like all the ingredients in them and things.  Like you could just get, like I was saying before, you could get health benefits and support your metabolism and all the things with, you know, a really good organic tea or coffee. That'll do it.

Barry Conrad

So you need, just get that glow. Get it. Yep. So we have a question from Jill and she asked, how to incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep?

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so Jill, I'm so, I'm actually surprised in the seven years or so that I've done this podcast that I don't think we've been asked this. And what's interesting about it, Well, Barry, have you had a colonoscopy?

Barry Conrad

This is very tasty conversation and I have not yet, but I actually am totally keen to try one because I heard it has so many benefits, right? Clearing out your system.

Melanie Avalon

Well, so Australia, they must have different. So like here in the US, I think you like are supposed to get one. Okay. So actually I just checked the rules. I guess I thought, I thought it was like in your thirties that you were supposed to get one in the US, but in the US it's, they recommend at 45.  And then earlier, if you have a family history of colorectal cancer. Yeah. So I've actually had three, three already. Yeah. That's why I have so many thoughts. That's about this question.

Barry Conrad

I, Melanie, I have not had one, I can safely say, but I definitely, even though I did confuse it with something else before, it's very important to get one because of, especially have family history, and I am due to get one, so.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, Barry was confusing it with colonics, which I love colonics do not get me started on colonics.  We actually have talked about those on the show, but for the colonoscopy, so I didn't ever have it.  I didn't have it for like, I don't have a genetic risk for cancer or anything.  I just had it because of my, because of my anemia, actually they were trying to see, which I don't have anymore, but they were trying to see if I had internal bleeding or something like that.  So the prep for it, because she says, how do you incorporate fasting into colonoscopy prep, you actually drink, it's, it's not fun.  You have to, I'm like having flashbacks.  You have to drink this like liquid laxative, like we're talking like a gallon of it.  Like it is so much that you have to drink.  I think it changes the different times I've done it, but I started an amount of time before you stop eating and then you just start drinking and drinking this stuff.  Yeah.  It's funny though.  This is what's funny about it.  So one of the times I did it, I was actually in the hospital for anemia.  So I didn't have the, I wasn't able to kind of like make it my own.  Like if I, cause when I did it at a later time, they just gave me the powder to make the drink and then you could like flavor it with the flavors they gave you.  But I wanted to make it as like clean as possible.  So I didn't do that, which I will circle back to you about how to incorporate fasting.  But when I was in the hospital, I had to just drink, they already pre-mixed it.  I had to drink it.  It had like, we were talking earlier about flavors and stuff.  It had all this like horrible stuff in it, like probably Stevia sweetened.  I hadn't had anything like flavored and fake tasting in forever that literally when I started drinking it, I was like, this tastes amazing.  Cause it tastes like candy cause I hadn't had like, you know, I hadn't had like that fake flavor-y stuff in years.  I was like, this is great.  It's like drinking Pez.  Do they have Pez in Australia?

Barry Conrad

We don't have Pez. What is that similar to? Is it like a sugary drink? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

And no, no, no, it's like, it's like Pez dispensers, like these little like, it's like all the different, they're like different cartoon characters and then they dispense these little like sugar tablets that are flavored.

Barry Conrad

I feel like I feel like I can see what you're talking about and that's that's pretty delicious but drinking it. Yeah, I can see that.

Melanie Avalon

it literally tastes like that. But then by the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like horrible.  I can't not drink another sip. But in any case, so my reframe for colonoscopy prep as a expert colonoscopy undergoer is it is a nice chance to do an extended fast because you do have to stop eating a certain amount of time before the surgery. It's not, I said surgery before the procedure. You have to be drinking this stuff, which even though it's, if you do like the flavored stuff, it does quote break the fast, but it isn't any calories. So you're not taking in any calories and then you like clean everything out. And then if you try to think if I like did not eat that, basically I was able to incorporate it and have a, an extended fast. All right, because the night before I didn't eat the night before cause I was doing the prep. So it was kind of a nice way to get in like a lot longer fasting hours and you actually can drink bone broth. So the most recent time I did it, I drank bone broth. So that actually was like food. So that time I kind of saw it as like an extended fast with a bone broth fast added on or like my normal fasting with like a bone broth fast. If you have to do a colonoscopy prep, I would try to make the actual stuff that you drink as benign as possible. So if you can get the version, cause it's usually covered by insurance, you can get a version where you're flavoring it yourself. Then you can just not use those flavor packets and you can flavor it with more helpful options. So I went to the store and I bought cause what it comes with is like is flavored with artificial sweeteners that are not good and you know, stuff you don't want. So I would, I went and found these like stevia flavored things at the store, which were a little bit more benign to flavor it. So I would recommend doing that. And then if you actually want to have food as well, you can do bone broth. So you can see it as like a way to have a bone broth thing. And then you have the procedure, which is actually, you know, you're under anesthesia. So it's quick from your perception.

Barry Conrad

You had the bone broth and you're just awake in two seconds.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you'll have to report back, Mary, if you do this.

Barry Conrad

So clear, non-caloric liquids, what I'm hearing is non-caloric liquids like water, bone broth, if allowed by your doctor, if they prescribe that, make sure you're hydrated beforehand, but also adjusting your fasting ahead of time. How did you approach your fasting maybe the day, two days beforehand?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so I did completely normal up until the day before. And then the day before was the day where I had to start the prep.  So that's where I got in my longer fast because normally I would have eaten that night but I didn't I for the first two I didn't have anything caloric I just had those drinks and then the third time I did it I had bone broth. Yeah, so basically the day before is where I didn't have a one meal a day meal like I normally do so I got in a longer fasting period of time and then had the procedure the next day and then you can eat well, I don't know if they recommend like go I think they do recommend like going slow but I'm so used to that's one thing I've noticed like I'm so used to fasting during the day and then eating a massive meal at night that I don't have to make any special like adjustment I don't need to like ease into my big meal again I'm like good to go. Yeah, you're good to go. Yeah, but I've been doing one meal a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, it's the same thing where doctors always say ease into it after any kind of a surgery or procedure, but I think the great thing about fasting is you already are having that long time of not eating, so your body's really primed for that. Just go back to your eating. You don't have to try to ease into having three gentle meals or five gentle meals, you know what I mean? So that's great.  There's another benefit of IF.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, actually, and similar with like when I get the thing, you confused it with a colonic. Sometimes if I go to a new place, they'll give you all the material where they're like, you know, ease into foods after I'm like, I'm good. Like, like, I am totally good. I literally, I don't ever need it.  I think even if I did like, I mean, I haven't, but I think even if I did like a five day extended fast, I literally probably could just like feast after and be fine. I'm not saying to do that. Ease in if you need to.

Barry Conrad

We're not endorsing, but we're just saying if you're used to that, then you know what you do you.

Melanie Avalon

We're just being real. So yeah, but on the flip side of not eating, speaking of food, Barry, you have a restaurant to explore?

Barry Conrad

I have a restaurant to explore and let me tell you this is one that I hunted down because one of my favorite cuisines is Greek food and the restaurant is called The Bright Star. The Bright Star is actually based in Alabama and it's the oldest continuously operating restaurant in Alabama. It started as this 25-cafe catering to local workers and it's grown into this 330-seat iconic landmark. It survived the Great Depression, stayed open to serve the community through that time.  Oh, wow. Yeah, it was featured in the 100 dishes to eat in Alabama before you die. Yes!

Melanie Avalon

We love that.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, and it's a family run establishment, so it's got lots of history. I love that it wasn't featured in that hundred dishes to eat in Alabama for you because I'm all about that final meals and whatnot.  So should we dive in? Let's do it. Should we look at the menu?

Melanie Avalon

And first of all, I have to say I love places with like I love finding restaurants with history that have been around for so long. That's why for the first time we did this, I picked one that was like one of the oldest restaurants in America.  I just it's so cool to think I just love like history of places. It's cool to think about. So for listeners, every episode we like to feature a cool restaurant that we found and say what we would order from the menu in our breaking of our fast because fasting one of the awesome things about fasting is the feasting on the other side.

Barry Conrad

Let's go to the dinner section and then, so we'll go look at the dinner section after choosing all of our food, then there's wine and beer and cocktail. So I think after dessert, even we might have to even check that out a drink of some sort, you're down.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. Well, this menu is massive. So, and they have a quick menu. I wonder what that's. Okay. You know, it's a massive menu when they start with their quote quick menu and the quick menu is, is larger than most menus. Very confusing.  I'm confused. I'm confused. So what would you get for appetizer? Oh my gosh. There's so many things.

Barry Conrad

So I'm going down right now. Let me have a look. I'm gonna go for the appetizer.

Melanie Avalon

We have appetizers and then we have appetizer as entree.

Barry Conrad

When I saw that initially, I thought of, it's not the same thing, but when you said, I'll have my mains for dessert. But one thing that jumped out of me straight away was remember how I said I hadn't had. There's one thing on here, Mel, that I've told you that I haven't had before and you were really shocked. Can you guess what it is?  It begins with an S, it's two words.

Melanie Avalon

I mean is it shrimp related? No because you like shrimp. Yeah. What was the shellfish that you... Oh right, shrimp cocktail.

Barry Conrad

I've never had a shrimp cocktail listeners ever I love shrimp I eat it normally but I just assume cocktail is not really a thing that you typically get in Australia at restaurants so that's definitely going to be on my starter situation.  What is spag spag spag it sounds like is that spaghetti because we called spat like a spag bowl like a spaghetti bowl here in Australia.

Melanie Avalon

Really? It looks like it's an animal.

Barry Conrad

a spag.

Melanie Avalon

Well, it's definitely, okay, Chad GPT says it's a small particle aerosol generator. I don't think it's that. Oh yeah, you're right. They're saying spaghetti.

Barry Conrad

Slickest bag, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Hm, I've never heard it called that. Interesting.

Barry Conrad

Okay, so I'm going to tell you my status first. I have a few. I'm going to do the shrimp cocktail, the entree baked mushrooms, and the entree bowl gumbo because I love gumbo. I tried it in New Orleans and it was game changing. So I'd love to try a Greek styled version. So that's my starters plural. What would you have?

Melanie Avalon

I would probably, I would maybe have lobster and crab. Oh my goodness. I can have so many things.  Lobster and crab and salmon and shrimp. What is snap throat? Oh, snapper throat. Maybe they seem to like snapper here. I think I would get lobster, crab, shrimp, salmon. Let's just get all of it.

Barry Conrad

All of it. I feel like when we find the listeners, when we finally eat together, we probably need two tables put together because we want to have like taste little bits of everything, I reckon.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'd be down. I would be down. What would you get as your main thing?

Barry Conrad

I would get the lobster and we get the fried chicken I love fried chicken with the passion and I love lobster as well so both of those for the manes for me.

Melanie Avalon

I feel like apparently snapper is their thing. I feel like I need to get snapper. I'm a little bit curious though about the mercury levels and snapper. So I probably wouldn't get the snapper.  Now that I say that I probably look it up and see if I could find mercury levels in it. But from my memory, I don't think it's I don't think it's low.

Barry Conrad

I forgot to add that one of the signature dishes is the Greek style snapper.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. So you might be missing out. I don't think, yeah, I would want it, but I don't think I would get it because of the mercury. So I probably get filet mignon. Yes.

Barry Conrad

Okay, and for dessert, are you going to get just the one or are you going to get another one?

Melanie Avalon

Oh, right. I think because I got so many appetizers that I can just have the filet. Oh, they have a veal steak. Hmm. I changed my mind. I'm like, I'm gonna get the veal steak.

Barry Conrad

Big, it's a big menu. I'm very impressed this place.

Melanie Avalon

I am too. And then they have a ton of dessert, what would you get for dessert?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I'm looking at it now.

Melanie Avalon

Can you get the birthday pie so I can look at it?

Barry Conrad

Okay, I've got a few choices. I'm going to I'm going to do the because you know, I love chocolate. It's my favorite.  I'm going to do the whole chocolate pie, the peanut butter slice with vanilla ice cream on the side, and then the birthday cake. I'll order as well, but I'm not going to have all of it. I'll just have it for you to a look at and for me to like taste. How's that?

Melanie Avalon

perfect. And I would just watch and get some more, probably some more salmon, maybe probably whatever appetizer, like the best out of the salmon shrimp lobster, grab more of whatever I liked the most.

Barry Conrad

What about a drink? A beverage? What would you like to have? There's wine there, there's beer there, there's cocktails. I'm eyeing the cocktails, just FYI.

Melanie Avalon

I don't know I'd have to look I don't know if there's a wine I'd have to look up all the wines and there's a lot and I'm not sure if there are any that are organic low alcohol European so yeah what would you get?

Barry Conrad

I'm going to go, you know, I love a margarita meal, so I'm going to go for their blueberry lemonade margarita. Something different.  I usually get a spicy, but I'm all about trying different margaritas, so that's my choice.

Melanie Avalon

Nice. Oh wait, actually they have lovey bunches. I think that's actually, wait, oh my goodness, wait a minute. Actually, they have one of my favorite organic wines.  It's not European. It's, I'm assuming it's a typo on their website because it says love you bumches, but I think it's, if it's love you bunches, if that's supposed to be an N, that I love that wine. It doesn't say which a varietal it is, but they have a rosé that's organic, low alcohol. They also have a red. It's by Staltman Vineyards. Yeah, I really love them. They have really nice organic practices as well. And they're like light, low alcohol.  Oh, I'm happy. Yay. Okay. Awesome.

Barry Conrad

I don't think we've had one in our very few restaurants we've done so far where you've pointed out like a wine that's organic, so that's pretty good. That's awesome. Thanks, Brightstar.

Melanie Avalon

I haven't looked at the wine list before this. Going forward, I will for sure. Well, a shout out again to the Bright Star Restaurant.

Barry Conrad

Shout out to Bart star when we're in Alabama next we'll have to check you out we have to make a list of all these restaurants by the way by the end of at the end of each year and sort of like okay when when we're going to be there let's just go through list and just do a tour of all the places.

Melanie Avalon

Sounds like a plan in my dream mind.

Barry Conrad

I don't think you're going to do that because you want to travel for a day.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you can do it. I'll watch. I'll come to one of them.

Barry Conrad

That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon

Shall we answer one more question? Let's do it. Jennifer would like to know, if you could only have one biohack in your life, what would it be?

Barry Conrad

Okay, that's that is a tough one. But for me, I would probably say real life therapy for me, because the benefits next level, you know, it boosts my collagen and production, which means smoother, firmer skin for me, which is great for what I do. So I'm not going to be mad at that.  It's it's great for also even more importantly, recovery muscle recovery, because I work out a lot. I work out at least three times a week doing resistance training. So that's usually beneficial for me. So red light therapy has already helped. I've found I've got a device or two devices actually that I use already and that has made a difference. So use that on the daily. It also helps with inflammation and pain and even with hair growth. And you know, it's not just about looking good for me. It's about feeling great. And I definitely feel like even having that Melanie, how you say you have the ambient sort of red light on while you're working away that I feel the same way. Like I just have it like playing. It only goes for 10 minutes at a time though. So I have to like time it and then put it on again. But that's part of my daily. I love it. That's probably the one hack that I would choose so far. Watch the space is probably going to be more to come. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's a really good choice. That's definitely in my, my running. This question is so hard and I'm so glad I don't ever have to actually do this. Like just picking one would be so I would be so hard. So thinking about it, I'm obsessed with my cryotherapy, but if I could only have one, then I could, I could like not go to cryotherapy every day and just do like a cold shower.  Am I allowed to like, like tweak this? So like, basically I could, I could get it, you know, without the actual biohack form, which is like going into a cold chamber, but I would really miss it. Red light, that's really up there. The one thing that I like blue light walking glasses at night, but it's like, okay, well then I could just force myself to not look at screens at night. But one of the ones where like I travel and I just, it's really hard to not have that is my daily infrared sauna session. It's so profound the way it makes me feel. And I feel you go in, it feels so good and relaxing. You sweat, you sweat out all these toxins and you just feel cleansed on an internal cellular level after it. And when I travel, I'm like, Oh, I needed sauna sessions. So bad. So, and that's not something where I can, I guess you could sweat by like working out of the gym, but this I don't, I'm not going to do that. So it would be my sunlight in infrared sauna and for listeners. So I have the solo unit, which is where you lay down inside of it and your head is outside of it. So you can like do your work while you're in it or read or something like that. But they also have cabin units as well. Literally one of my favorite things in my entire life. And if you tell them I sent you Melanie Avalon, they'll give you a major discount. So sunlight in infrared sauna is my choice.

Barry Conrad

I've only done one infrared sauna before and that was last year at like a like a health and fitness joint nearby and it was it was amazing like it's different to it's so different to a regular like steam sauna like because you do feel like it's from the inside out and you do feel refreshed and you're sweating you know your butt off as well so it's it's quite a unique experience so I can see why you would go for that I actually forgot about that that's that's a really good one

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Did you feel like you wanted to get one of your own integrated into your life daily?

Barry Conrad

I did actually feel that and then I just and I made a note to like do it again and I just haven't but I think it would definitely be really relaxing too because I like I actually like the feeling of being hot when it's for a purpose I don't like feeling hot when I'm just you know at home that's why I like being cold just like you but it's a really it's a really good feeling isn't it?

Melanie Avalon

Wait, that is so true. So I do not like being hot.  The only time is when I'm in a sauna because it's like a controlled environment for a purpose. You're, you're not sweating over yourself because you're like, it's, I don't like, I don't like sweating with clothes on. It's like, I don't like textures of that.

Barry Conrad

In the gym, you do that, though, so...

Melanie Avalon

Right, but I don't go to the gym. You don't do the gym, yeah. I don't like it.  I'm thinking about it right now. It feels so disgusting. I think I'm like texture, but I don't like the texture of certain things on my body. I'm very sensitive to that.

Barry Conrad

What do you mean? Like, give me an example.

Melanie Avalon

like clothing and like sweat and not about it.

Barry Conrad

Do you like black, you know those black dresses that you wear to these awesome letouts, does that count?

Melanie Avalon

So dresses, I don't like pants because I don't like all that constrictive clothing on my body. So dresses are great because they're very flowy.  They're maybe tight at top, but you know, or maybe they could be, they're not as constrictive. I could not be a man and wear pants all the time.

Barry Conrad

You know, now that you mentioned, I've actually never seen you wear pants in like in any post ever. Like, that's such a good point. Like, never seen you wear jeans, pants. Do you wear jeans?

Melanie Avalon

I do not like jeans. The last time I wore jeans was, so every year I post my annual Christmas tree getting video.  One of the times I went, I was like, I'm gonna dress up like rustic to get this Christmas tree. So I wore jeans.

Barry Conrad

I actually can't picture it now. I actually can't picture you in like jeans and boots. I mean, jeans. Yeah. That's so interesting. Wow. There you go.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, you're missing out Barry with the dresses.

Barry Conrad

Well, I feel it could be too breezy for me. I mean, it's, yeah, let's not keep going down that path. I'm just going to pass now.

Melanie Avalon

So, at any point, that's why I love the sauna because it's like you sweat and like this sweat immediately is, you know, you're naked, it's like whisked away onto towels. And then you're like out, you shower, it's all contained.

Barry Conrad

How many showers do you have a day like two three.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's such a good question. It depends how many sauna sessions I do in a day. How many do you do in a day? Well, I always do at least one long one, but sometimes I do two, sometimes I do three.  I like taking sauna naps. That's a hack. That's a good biohack. So you can sleep. Yeah, because then you literally sleep and get a cardiovascular workout at the same time. Like what?

Barry Conrad

So cool. I'm trying to picture this device. I need to... Is this... Is it like a chamber? What is it?

Melanie Avalon

It's like a dome. So again, so Sunline makes cabin units like the stereotypical cabin units, but they make this solo unit. It's like a dome that you slide into.

Barry Conrad

Wow, that sounds awesome, actually.

Melanie Avalon

So yeah, I like, I've like set it up with my hulk and trap. So I put it on top of a twin bed, a twin bed frame that I got on Amazon, like a metal twin bed frame. So it's on top of that. So then I can store stuff underneath it.  I got a little arm thing that I attached to it that holds my iPhone above my head to do like work. And then I got a standup fan. So I put a fan on my face. So then I don't even feel that hot cause I have the fan on my face.  And if you want to take a nap, if you're like really exhausted, you can take a nap in there and you wake up and it's like you worked out. That's.

Barry Conrad

wild. You never told me this before until now in terms of the whole setup. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's really cool. So to answer your question, I take a shower in the morning and then however many sauna sessions, I take a shower after every one of those.  So the most hours I take would be four, I guess, in a day.

Barry Conrad

Yeah, I love showers.

Melanie Avalon

Do you end with a cold blast?

Barry Conrad

You know what? I've definitely started introducing that more because it's kind of my way of doing the cryotherapy, but it's not really. It's just more cold water therapy. Because cryo, from what I understand, is freezing. Freezing, freezing, freezing. But it definitely refreshes me doing it.  I had a cold water shower today before doing the podcast after the gym. It wakes you up. Yeah. Didn't you hear it? I'm peppy. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

So awesome. Okay. Well, Jennifer, thank you for the question and thank you everybody else for your questions. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ipodcast.com and can go to ipodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can get all of the stuff that we like at ipodcast.com slash stuff we like. Definitely follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is okay. Ready? Barry underscore Conrad, right? You got it. Yes. And on Instagram, our show is IF Podcast. So yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad

I hope you all have an awesome day and something really great to break your fast and we'll talk to you next time.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome! I will talk to you next week!

Barry Conrad

See you later!

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye.  Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.  If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.  See you next week!

Welcome to Episode 398 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS:

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STUFF WE LIKE: 

Visit ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike for all the stuff we like!

STUDIES:

Fasting's effects on stem cells linked to increased cancer risk (link)

Short-term post-fast refeeding enhances intestinal stemness via polyamines (link)

OTHER LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

Melanie Avalon

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels.

Melanie Avalon

For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com.

Melanie Avalon

We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome.

Melanie Avalon

This is episode number 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing well. How are you? I am good. I have had an epiphany about a product I want to make.

Melanie Avalon

Can I like pitch you it? Okay. So you know how we talk about sleeping and how I love sleeping cool with like cooling mattresses and air temperature down and all the things? Yes. So what if I make like a stuffed animal that you sleep with that is filled with like a gel or a water and you keep it in the freezer.

Melanie Avalon

And so then at night, you pull it out of the freezer and you snuggle with it and it keeps you cold. So cute. I've been snuggling with like those like cold packs and realizing how effective they are. And I was like, Oh, this should be like a stuffed animal.

Vanessa Spina

That would be really cute. Have you checked if they have that anywhere? Like, it's got to be a thing. But probably for heat ones, maybe they have them for heat ones, but not for cold ones.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'm getting flashbacks when we were little. We had the boo boo bunny. Did you have a boo boo bunny?

Vanessa Spina

No, but you literally are Elsa, like you are it's crazy. Like who cuddles with an ice block?

Melanie Avalon

Listeners friends, let me know if this is something you want and I will I will make one. This is hilarious. What's new in your life?

Vanessa Spina

Things are going well, you know, overall, just like juggling all the things, the family, the work, the fasting, the not-so-fasting. I've been... The not-so-fasting? Yeah, like I've been revisiting, you know, I probably mentioned it a few different times.

Vanessa Spina

I've been trying different things, you know, I told you I had recently added in this morning meal, like at 10 a.m. before my workouts. And now I'm starting to learn about how to strategically use carbs before workouts and protein.

Vanessa Spina

And I had the most brilliant guest I think I've ever had on the podcast, Dr. Stacey Sims.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, which we have a question about her later, so.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, I saw that, which was amazing timing, but I interviewed her and she's just so incredible because she is such an expert when it comes to women's physiology and especially women who are active or athletic.

Vanessa Spina

And she really talks about how she had this viral TED talk where it was women are not small men. People, a lot of listeners have probably heard that before, but maybe they knew it was her. They didn't know it was actually from her.

Vanessa Spina

And so she talks about how a lot of the research that's done on things like intermittent fasting and fasted workouts and, you know, protein timing, meal distribution, all this stuff, it's always for the majority of the time done on men.

Vanessa Spina

And so she looks at the research that's specifically done on women and also how things affect our brains and also our ability to recover. And it's just so specific. She just has a very specific and incredible amount of knowledge.

Vanessa Spina

So it was really interesting to interview her and talk to her because I think things are different if someone is metabolically unhealthy. And I kind of told her, this is, look, this is my journey. I'm not an athlete.

Vanessa Spina

Like I tried out for sports in high school. I did not make the teams. Like I was an overweight teen. I was not fit. Like I would get super red if I tried to run a mile or anything like that. I was usually like the one last picked for team sports and stuff like that.

Vanessa Spina

So I became athletic now as an adult, but as a kid, I was not that. And I was someone who became, you know, metabolically unfit, very metabolically inflexible and obese. You know, I was like 38% body fat.

Vanessa Spina

So I told her before we started recording, like, I'm not an athlete. This is my story. I use intermittent fasting and keto and all these things to help me when I was in that really metabolically unfit place.

Vanessa Spina

And now over the years I've started doing resistance training. I started getting energy back as I lost fat mass through keto and intermittent fasting and these different tools and strategies where now I'm this active person and I am building all this muscle and I, and now I have to revisit my strategies like do these things still work for someone who's now metabolically fit and who's very active compared to older version of Vanessa who was unfit and obese.

Vanessa Spina

Right. So it's really interesting because she does say that these things have a place like intermittent fasting has a place for women who have PCOS. As you know, the research on that is amazing for women who have issues with things like PCOS and obesity, they have their place there.

Vanessa Spina

What she doesn't like is when they're applied to the fitness space and women's active women and women who are athletes because there she finds there's more a risk of under fueling and not recovering well.

Vanessa Spina

Whereas men who are athletes and athletic, they can sort of get away with some of those strategies even when they're athletic, but women not as much. And so she has this very specific knowledge that has been really interesting.

Vanessa Spina

And I think anyone who's, you know, completely if you completely recompose your body and completely transform your metabolic health, where you're a new person and your activity levels are completely different, you may need to revisit your strategies, you know?

Vanessa Spina

And so now I'm finding things that are like, wow, I'm really fired up about all these things that are now helping me take things to the next level athletically where these other tools really helped me when I was in a different place.

Vanessa Spina

So it's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness, I have questions and thoughts. This is actually just a random question. Have you ever thought about doing a TED Talk?

Vanessa Spina

No, I don't think I really have.

Melanie Avalon

I just think about it because I feel like for so many people it's how they get their initial massive audience. Like Cynthia had a TED Talk. I just feel like it's like a thing to do that really gets you out there with a message.

Melanie Avalon

If you have a particular specific message, it's interesting. I would have thought that you would have thought of it. I don't know. I felt like it was something that sounds like a Vanessa thing, like doing a TED Talk.

Melanie Avalon

Like would you want to? It was like given to you like an invitation.

Vanessa Spina

I don't know. It kind of scares me. I think I would need to get to a point in my career where I had a specific amount of knowledge, and I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I'm still refining things, but I have a specific amount of knowledge that only I have.

Vanessa Spina

Maybe you just need a message that you're really passionate about sharing. I definitely have that. I think there's just a lot of pressure. I had two friends who did TED Talks, Darryl Edwards and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

Vanessa Spina

When Gabrielle was preparing, she was rehearsing with me. I just felt so nervous for both of them when they were doing it. I knew they were both going to absolutely crush it, and they both completely did.

Vanessa Spina

But I remember the feeling of seeing them go through the process. It was making me nervous because it's a lot of pressure, stepping on stage and delivering this perfect 10, 12-minute pitch. But I don't know.

Vanessa Spina

It maybe would be worth thinking about. What's interesting too is a lot of people, I think, maybe Cynthia, maybe I'm wrong about this. It seems like certain people that I know, I think maybe Cynthia, maybe Dr.

Vanessa Spina

Stacy Sims, they did their TED Talk, and then they started really building a huge following partly because of the virality of that. That elevated all the work that they had been doing over the years.

Vanessa Spina

Maybe I could be totally wrong because I actually don't fully know. This is just what I'm inferring. Whereas other people, and then once they do the TED Talk, they get a book deal and they get multiple book deals and they build this massive community.

Vanessa Spina

But then there's other people who build up their communities in other ways, either with a book first or with a podcast or with an Instagram or whatever, and then they do a TED Talk later. That was more Gabrielle.

Vanessa Spina

She already had built up this huge audience and stuff, and then she was like, I need to do a TED Talk, which just took her message to the next level and her following a community to the next level. Yeah, it's really interesting on when is the best time to do it as well.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really intrigued by it. And now I'm thinking back through all the people I know who have done TED Talks. And I know some of them have, I know I had like a long call with somebody who had done TED Talk and he said it was like the most stressful thing, like the vibes of what you were just saying.

Melanie Avalon

And I remember being like, Oh, okay. But then I've talked to people who are like, Oh, you should totally do one. So any case, a huge question I have about Stacy, and it actually relates to the study a little bit.

Melanie Avalon

It relates to an idea I have about the study we're going to discuss. But you mentioned that she said one of her main concerns is under fueling while fasting. So are, I don't know if this came up specifically, but are the issues from the fasting or are they from fasting if you're an athlete under fueling?

Melanie Avalon

Like is it like required to have the under fueling piece as well?

Vanessa Spina

It's that the, it's that the fasting, one aspect of it is that the intermittent fasting leads to under fueling because especially for athletes, the energy demand, depending on the athlete as well is so high that you can't really, you can't really cut out that fast and that, that eating time.

Vanessa Spina

And for her, it's the ones who like skipped the morning meal or like really push to extend their fasting window late into the day, she thinks it's really not ideal for athletes because of certain hormonal things.

Vanessa Spina

And so one of her things is like, if you're going to do resistance training, you just need 15 grams of protein before resistance training. And this is like a small amount of amino acids that basically signals to your hypothalamus that there's fuel on board and amino acids on board.

Vanessa Spina

And it also helps get into the state physiologically post exercise to recover, which is really interesting. So she has a lot of research showing that specifically in women, one of the ways that we're different.

Vanessa Spina

She also talks about cycle specific things. So things happen around women's cycles. She also talks about really interestingly how women have more oxidative fibers. So we're actually more metabolically flexible than men.

Vanessa Spina

Whereas men don't have as many oxidative fibers. So they have to do some of these strategies like fasting until midday or later to become as metabolically flexible as women. So I was like, that's really cool because usually when you compare women's physiology to men's, it's usually some kind of disadvantage, but this is one area where we actually have an advantage.

Vanessa Spina

It's kind of like.

Melanie Avalon

People debate, I mean, I have read multiple times that women are better fat burners than men. I don't know, but I think there's this idea that we're not as good at fat burners because it seems like dieting and everything comes much easier to men.

Melanie Avalon

But I'm pretty sure from like just a physiological perspective, like we burn more fat when we're exercising, we more easily tap into fat. It's actually all in our advantage. Well, okay, I'll tell you, so this is how it relates to the study we were gonna discuss.

Melanie Avalon

So this study was actually sent to me by my friend James Clement, shout out to James. I love James, he wrote a book called The Switch. I was just thinking about, was The Switch about switching into fat burning.

Melanie Avalon

It's about the switch between A and BK and mTOR specifically is what it's referring to.

Vanessa Spina

Oh, not the metabolic switch!

Melanie Avalon

It probably is on a grander scale, but I think specifically it's been forever since I've read it. I think specifically it's talking more about that. I should revisit that and actually check that.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I'm interested.

Melanie Avalon

In any case, so this study is called Short-Term Post-Fast Refeeding Enhances Intestinal Stemness via Polyaminines, August 2024. And he actually sent me an article about it. The title of the article is Fastings Effects on Stem Cells Linked to Increased Cancer Risk.

Melanie Avalon

So this was a rodent study, but it was really interesting because basically the researchers, they had, prior to this, they had done studies on intestinal stem cells. So they actually found in 2018 that 24-hour fasts could boost the regeneration of intestinal stem cells, which tends to go down with age.

Melanie Avalon

So that's super awesome. And their new study actually looked at the effects of the refeeding process after that fasting on intestinal stem cells. And again, this was specifically in rodents, but what they found was actually an increased cancer risk after the refeeding period.

Melanie Avalon

And the way that it was set up, so they actually had three groups. So there was one group that just fasted for 24 hours, another group that fasted for 24 hours, and then they ate whatever they wanted for a 24-hour refeeding period.

Melanie Avalon

And then just a normal control group, a normal control group that ate just normally throughout the study. And the mechanisms that they proposed for why there was an increased cancer risk, just specifically in the group after the refeeding period, was likely due to high levels of mTOR Complex 1, which we talked about mTOR a lot on a show.

Melanie Avalon

They found that it increased protein synthesis via polyamine metabolism in that refeeding process. And so their conclusions from that was that when the fasting and the refeeding cycle that you needed to carefully consider and test the diet-based strategies that you implement for that because of this increased cancer risk.

Melanie Avalon

Something that's really important to note, which they don't really draw attention to in the article about it, surprise, surprise, is these were mice that had a genetic disposition for cancer. So they were mice that were set up to probably get cancer, and then putting them in this setting where they were fasting for 24 hours and then refeeding, that refeeding process actually did increase cancer risk.

Melanie Avalon

And so I have a lot of thoughts about this. The way it relates to what I was saying about asking you about Dr. Stacy Stems, the reason I was asking the question about is it the fasting or is it the fasting and the underfueling?

Melanie Avalon

So is it actually the fasting that's a problem or is it the fasting which creates underfueling? And so my question here is, is it actually the fasting that's the problem or was it the intense overfeeding period that these rats went through because of the fasting and specifically because they were set up for cancer, a genetic tendency towards cancer?

Melanie Avalon

And I have other thoughts beyond that, but just having laid that out, do you have any initial thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

don't. I read both the study links that you sent me. And well, the first thing that I want, I guess, to make clear is that they were rodent studies, right? I think you mentioned that. So what they find could have no application whatsoever to humans, which is something that I've really been learning recently because there's sometimes extrapolations that have been made from rodent studies to humans that later on are confirmed as having absolutely no parallels whatsoever in humans.

Vanessa Spina

So I used to think, well, if they found it in a mice, it must apply to humans even in a small way, right? And then it turns out, no, it doesn't matter. Like it can be found in mice and then not be a factor at all for humans.

Vanessa Spina

So I just want to preface it saying that I would be really curious to see the research done like in human randomized control trials and see, you know, what, I don't know if you could do this kind of study in humans though.

Vanessa Spina

That's one of unfortunate things about the limitations and ethics. You know, I don't think you could, you couldn't create, I guess you could maybe set up the parameters a little bit, you know, differently or just follow people who do a lot of fasting and refeeding in different ways.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I mean, I think you could look at ADF. The problem here, well, like you said with the rodents and like the fasting and rodents, it's hard to translate rodents to days to humans because do you do it one-to-one like 24 hours, 24 hours, or like accommodate the fact that a 24-hour fast and a rodent is days and days and days and a human?

Melanie Avalon

So it's like, what actually is the equal fast? Do we even know? And so, but one of the things I just wanted to, I guess something I think we can take away from this, and this is completely mechanistic, but basically, it is possible that you can do fasting and have these beneficial effects and then have an eating environment that could still be potentially detrimental.

Melanie Avalon

So in this situation, and I would like to actually read, I could only access the overview of the study. I couldn't get the actual details because I would like to know if the rodents that were eating whatever they wanted after the fast, like how did that eating compared to the other groups?

Melanie Avalon

Because it was all just, it was just like what they wanted. So I'm not sure like what they were actually eating or how much.

Vanessa Spina

It also just wanted to make a point there. It also, like they said they did three groups, but they weren't all the same. Like one just did fasting, then one did fasting and refeeding. So they didn't, and then there was a third group, but they didn't do like three, like three or four different types of fasting and refeeding.

Vanessa Spina

So how do they know for sure it's the refeeding?

Melanie Avalon

How do they know to what extent the fasting was the cause here? They need a group that was overeating without having fasted as well. That I'd be curious about because that they might, you know, they might find with that, that fasting was actually mitigating some of the effects, you know?

Melanie Avalon

But something I think that we can take away from this, and this actually relates to our next question is I do, this is my opinion, but I think fasting has so many incredible benefits and I think people can do compensatory, take compensatory measures from that, that create problems and then that, and then the fasting gets blamed for it.

Melanie Avalon

So I think that happens with the under fueling with the athletes. Like I, it might not be the entirety of the cause of the problem is they're under fueling, but I feel like it's probably a big part of it.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm curious if we had a population of athletes and maybe there's been the study, but I'd be curious if there's a population of athletes that did not under fuel like at all and was doing fasting, do they see problems?

Melanie Avalon

And then like with the study, I'd be really curious if they were to have a control group of rodents that fasted and then were controlled to eat normally. Like would they see the problems? And then on the flip side, I don't think fasting is a magical cure all for everything, so you could do fasting and then you can still, in your eating window, eat not good food, like carcinogenic, toxic food, processed food,

Melanie Avalon

high sugar food, and fasting might help mitigate a lot of the effects of that. But I don't think it's a magic wand to just completely undo the negative potential of what we do end up putting in our bodies.

Melanie Avalon

So whether it's too little or too much, that stuff still counts. So yeah, fasting seems to be given, it gets all the blame or like all the praise, and I think the approach is actually more nuanced than that.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, I agree.

Melanie Avalon

So, which that does relate to the question. So would you like to read Amy's question?

Vanessa Spina

Yes so first question today is from Amy. I just finished a three day water fast and when i had my first meal afterwards my body swelled up and became very sore. I am assuming it's the return of inflammation does it seem.

Vanessa Spina

Normal to have the inflammation return so quickly or was this likely more of an indication of a food sensitivity slash intolerance it was tough because i hadn't done a fast. Over 20 hours in a long time however i regained my sense of smell i lost it from coven so that was super cool wow amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, Amy. Well, first of all, I'm dying to know. And since this was from Facebook, maybe I can ask her, I'm really curious how I really want to know how like when she had COVID was her sense of smell gone for months and months.

Melanie Avalon

And then she did a three day water pass and it came back or like, had she just had COVID and then did it and came back. So it would be hard to, you know, parse out if it was actually do the fasting. But if it had been like months and months, and then she did this and it came back, that would be so, that would be so cool.

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it's cool either way and it's awesome either way. Have you had COVID Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

Have had it one time It was really at the very very end. I got like a very last variant I think it was omnichron or something and it was pretty mild

Melanie Avalon

Did your smile go away?

Vanessa Spina

I didn't, but funny enough, that's how we figured out what was going on. We were actually in Greece and the hotel that we stayed at, you know, Uzo, Uzo, Uzo, I'm probably saying it wrong. Uzo is this Greek, it's sort of like a hooch or like a, like a moonshine kind of thing, or just like a alcohol Uzo.

Vanessa Spina

I think it's homemade sometimes. You can make it homemade or professionally made, but it's a traditional Greek drink, very strong, smells very strong, just like most hard alcohols. And they always have it in the room, in your hotel room, it's like a little.

Vanessa Spina

Like a welcome gift? Yeah, like a welcome gift. Exactly. They have some like nice local nuts and then locally made Uzo. And we always take it and put it away because we don't want our kids to, you know, go and play with it or whatever and knock it over.

Vanessa Spina

So we always take it and put away in the closet. And there was one, I think it was like halfway through the trip. My husband took it, took it out. I think he wanted to like taste it or try it or something.

Vanessa Spina

And he's like, huh, that's weird. It doesn't smell. And we were like, what? He's like, and then he's like, I think I lost my sense of smell because I smelled it and it almost knocked me out of my chair.

Vanessa Spina

And so if he couldn't smell that, you knew it was real. And he's like, I think I have COVID. I was like, no, you don't. He took a COVID test the next day, but that was like his only symptom. Weirdly enough.

Vanessa Spina

I never lost any of my smell or taste. Did you?

Melanie Avalon

So was he asymptomatic, COVID, or was he feeling sick?

Vanessa Spina

He didn't feel great, you know, but he wasn't like super sick. Yeah, it just lasted a couple of days. Like a short cold and mine same for me, but I didn't lose this smell.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, for me, I had it twice. The first time I had it, it was weird because I didn't feel... It was the day after New Year's Eve, so I thought I had just been out too late and it's funny because I hadn't been actually sick in years, so I didn't realize I was sick.

Melanie Avalon

I didn't put two and two together. I was like, I'm so tired. I actually had a fever the night before. I was dreaming that I was burning up. I was dreaming about fire and stuff, but I didn't put two and two together, and then my smell went away.

Melanie Avalon

My sense of smell, and I was like, oh... I was like, I know what this is. And then when I got it the second time, same thing, I had a dream at night where I was in some sort of hot situation and woke up and didn't think I was sick, but then it started going away again.

Melanie Avalon

I was like, oh, I know what this is. So that was... Last, sorry, last hand gen. I'm so sorry, but it just reminds me of it. My sister and I went out. The Michelin guide recently came to Atlanta and they starred some restaurants.

Melanie Avalon

Do they come to Prague? Is there a Michelin in Prague restaurants?

Vanessa Spina

Yes, there's a couple. There's just only a couple, but yeah, they do come here.

Melanie Avalon

So we've been wanting to go to the different ones and try them. And we went to one called Lazy Betty over the weekend, which was amazing. I highly recommend it. They were awesome. But the bartender was so incredible and giving us all of this free, all these free drinks, but he gave us this, like a spirit made from grapes made from my favorite white wine, grape, melon blanc.

Melanie Avalon

But it was that situation where like you couldn't even like smell it. It would like wipe you out. You had to like, I was like scared of it. I was like holding it far away from me. But I am not a, I do not like hard alcohol or spirits.

Melanie Avalon

They're not my, they're not my cup of tea. Do you, do you like them?

Vanessa Spina

No, I mean, so we were at a little get together yesterday. And I wanted to have some Prosecco. That's my go to. And they said I could only have a bottle, which was like $500 or something. So I was like, Okay, I guess I'll have something called a skinny bitch.

Vanessa Spina

I don't know if you need to bleep that out. But it's an actual drink in Prague. And everybody knows it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh really? It's like common to order.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, it's just vodka soda with a splash of lime.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yeah, it's like a skinny margarita.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, but when I was back in Texas and I was out with some friends who are also one of my girlfriends who lives in Switzerland and we both were like, yeah, we'll have a skinny bitch. And the waitress was like, excuse me?

Vanessa Spina

We're like, okay, it's not a thing here, but it's a thing.

Melanie Avalon

in Europe. That's funny. Wait, so that's what, so you like it like in a, it's okay. And then like a mixed drink situation, I guess.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, exactly. I'll have it with soda if there's no other options. But over the years I used to have that more. Now I'm more of a Prosecco kind of girl, especially since I tested it with my CGM this summer and saw that really didn't do what I thought it was doing.

Vanessa Spina

So yeah, I feel fine about having those.

Melanie Avalon

which is so interesting to me because Prosecco, I mean, it's a, it tends to be a little bit sweeter, right? Doesn't it? Or is it really dry?

Vanessa Spina

These are pretty dry usually, but I still expected it to.

Melanie Avalon

to do something different.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah. And it just like, well, Kara was explaining to me, just like turns your liver off in terms of putting out, it shuts off gluconeogenesis essentially while it's dealing with the alcohol. So your blood sugar can go down, which is what happens to mine, which is like, I don't think is a bad thing.

Melanie Avalon

This relates to a question we have later. Perfect. I might reorder the question so we can talk about it. In any case, how are we on this tangent? I'm so sorry. Oh yeah. Like COVID and smelling all the things back to Amy's question.

Melanie Avalon

I think Amy, okay. She says, is it normal to have the inflammation return so quickly? So your body's swelling up and becoming really sore after eating. That's not normal. And what I mean by normal is that's not what we should be experiencing in a really healthy metabolic state where what we're eating is really suiting us.

Melanie Avalon

And the processes are all working the way they should be working. I don't want to say it's not normal that, oh, it's like horrible and terrible. And you know, you're an outlier. I don't mean it that way at all.

Melanie Avalon

I just mean that it is a sign that something is not working here because you shouldn't be swelling up and getting sore after eating. You don't have to like sign up for that. It's like part of life. It's like there are other options.

Melanie Avalon

So I would, and the way this really relates to the study before is that that study was showing that even with the fasting, the food eating state, depending on what it is, can be inflammatory. So in that study, it was increasing the risk of, you know, tumor growth in cells.

Melanie Avalon

She says, is it likely an indication of a food sensitivity or intolerance? I'm not a doctor. I would say high probability that that is the case. So I would really look at what you're eating. And the amazing thing about coming off of a lung fast like that is it's a great opportunity to see how you react to food because you should be able to eat food and not swell up and feel bad from it.

Melanie Avalon

So I would think it's probably something you're eating. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

I think it's probably a combination of inflammation and a food intolerance, so when I used to do a lot of extended fasting, which I'm glad I don't do as much of it as I used to, because I used to do quite a bit of it before, I also would notice similar things sometimes, and especially inflammation, like in my legs.

Vanessa Spina

Whenever I would do an extended water fast for four to five days, I would have no inflammation. It was amazing. It was an amazing feeling of lightness, and my legs especially would get really, I don't know what the word is, not toned, but just free of inflammation, and no swelling, whatever the opposite of swollen and puffy is, hydrated and just perfect.

Vanessa Spina

And then when I would go back to eating normally, I usually would have some return of the inflammation. And I have some friends who are like this as well with their legs. It tends to happen in the ankles or legs.

Vanessa Spina

And I think it can also be fluid shifts. Usually when you're fasting, maybe you're having a little bit of salted water, but you have way less sodium coming in without the food. So you also can release just water from the lowered amount of sodium being consumed, and also from the lowered retention and recycling of electrolytes.

Vanessa Spina

Your kidneys, when your insulin levels fall, which they do quite a bit during fasting, your kidneys don't reabsorb as many electrolytes, so people dump a lot of water, a lot of glycogen to you. But yeah, I think it's probably a combination of those things.

Vanessa Spina

But yeah, it can be really frustrating speaking from experience. I actually, I think, got to the point where I was kind of tired of the back and forth that I would experience from that, whereas now where I'm at, I have to say I don't have any issues with any inflammation, swelling, fluid imbalance issues, or anything like that.

Vanessa Spina

And I don't know, it would be interesting if I did a fast now to see if it would make much of a difference. But I just prefer the stability of it because the back and forth, I would get so much relief from inflammation when I would fast.

Vanessa Spina

But then as soon as I was consuming a lot of food normally after. But I have to say, I did figure out a lot of foods that were more inflammatory for me from it. So whenever you do an elimination diet, there's always a massive opportunity to reintroduce things very methodically.

Vanessa Spina

And a lot of people don't do that, which is actually one of the things that those studies were sort of talking about early in the episode is you can do a fast and get all these benefits, but then if you eat sort of the wrong foods when you reintroduce them, then you might end up causing more damage than if you didn't do the fast at all, which I definitely agree with.

Vanessa Spina

So you want to be specific about consuming healthy foods. You are what you eat, so what you consume definitely will become a part of your body and proteins and substrates and all that. So yeah, I think it's probably a combination.

Vanessa Spina

And if you reintroduce things really methodically, one at a time, and usually it's recommended to do a slice of something and then wait a day and see what happens and then do a little more. And it takes time, but it's invaluable what you learn from it.

Vanessa Spina

I really learned, especially with vegetables, which ones would make me very bloated and I never have bloat anymore because I just figured out what those were and I didn't know before. So yeah, it's a great opportunity to figure out what's really well aligned with your personal physiology.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad that you pointed out the part about the fluid changes because that's definitely a huge shift and I think the soreness is part of the part that indicates to me that you're having some sort of immune response to the food likely because like pain signals

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I don't remember having soreness. That part is really interesting and would be interesting to talk to a doctor who's familiar with fasting. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

No, definitely. Yeah, so hopefully that helps. Maybe we can go to the question that related to the alcohol. All right. So now we have a question from Michelle and this is the one that relates to Dr. Stacy Sims.

Melanie Avalon

So this is perfect. Oh, by the way, did you reach out to her to interview her? Dr. Sims. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, she was on Huberman, but she had been on my radar already. And I had emailed her a little bit before she was on Huberman's podcast. And I think I told you, they wrote back and said that they didn't think it would be a good fit because she wasn't a fan of keto and intermittent fasting.

Vanessa Spina

And I realized that if you look up my podcast, it still had the old description where I talk about keto and fasting a lot. So I wrote back and I was like, oh, that's when the podcast used to be called Fasquito.

Vanessa Spina

And I also think athletes need different strategies. And I would love to talk to her and learn from her. They said, yeah, then that's great. She really likes that and would love to come on. And she was absolutely wonderful.

Vanessa Spina

I think it was my favorite episode of the podcast I've ever done.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, whoa. That's an endorsement.

Vanessa Spina

I know. She's like my favorite guest I've ever had on. She's so passionate about understanding women's specific physiology, but she's also so kind and down to earth. Yeah, really amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So Michelle's question, she says, Hey, Melanie, thank you for answering my question about modal diabetes on the podcast. And the reason she's addressing it to Melanie was I posted this, this post in the Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon

I was very excited. Love you, ladies. Thanks for the tips. Another question that I have about fasting is regarding women in their forties. I just turned 40 this year. I listened to a Huberman podcast.

Melanie Avalon

There we go. Recently where he interviewed Dr. Stacy Sims, she was talking about how women should not work out fasted. And then she puts the little like yikes face emoji, especially as we age and our hormones change.

Melanie Avalon

I don't love eating in the morning right away. And I like to work out fasted somewhere between 9am and noon. Any thoughts on this? I saw on Vanessa's Facebook group that she might be interviewing Dr.

Melanie Avalon

Stacy Sims soon or trying to thank you while we answered that last part. Yeah. So Vanessa, do you have thoughts on this, especially after interviewing Dr. Sims?

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, it's really interesting, I think. So she did mention that she thinks any woman who is active on a regular basis is an athlete. Mm-hmm. That's a definition. Yeah, even if it's recreational. Because I was, you know, telling her a little bit, like, I don't really think I'm an athlete.

Vanessa Spina

You know, I just work out recreationally. And she's like, no, if you do regular intentional exercise, you're an athlete. So that's the way she, that's her perspective on it. So she thinks that there's solid research showing that if women are doing resistance training, just a small amount of amino acid is about 15 grams before the workout is really beneficial for the hypothalamus to know that there's fuel on board,

Vanessa Spina

as she says it, and also for the recovery, it triggers certain aspects of recovery as well and helps women recover better from the workout. She also mentioned that women should have a protein meal, I think she said, within half an hour of a resistance training workout.

Vanessa Spina

And then she also mentioned that if you're going for endurance, that I think 30 grams of carb before. So she personally is an athlete. And she has something called like a protein coffee. And she makes an espresso shot with some protein powder in it.

Vanessa Spina

And she'll just like, sort of do a shot of that in the morning before heading out to do like a cold water swim or something pretty intense. I found this information pretty valuable. You mentioned that you don't love eating in the morning.

Vanessa Spina

And I'm very similar to that. I don't have an appetite in the morning. But I started eating anyway. And, you know, like I mentioned, I have my first meal around 10am. I usually work out around 11. And having a small meal, like if you just have a protein coffee or like I've been doing a scoop of protein with some oatmeal or with some yogurt, it's really not a huge meal that you feel it when you're working out.

Vanessa Spina

But I would say in terms of like feeling full, which I always worked out fasted partly because I wanted I didn't want to feel full working out. But I think it does. I have been noticing I've been enjoying my workouts so much more.

Vanessa Spina

I've been able to push so much harder. I'm doing a higher weight level now already. And I've gone from doing two to four workouts a week to doing five to six. And then I've also just added an endurance.

Vanessa Spina

So in the last week, I've done two. It's kind of funny, I call it strollerblading, but rollerblading with my stroller with my nine month old. It was so much fun. I went with a girlfriend twice last week.

Vanessa Spina

And this is like a roller coaster for the kid. Yeah, it was really fun. Damien slept the entire time through it. So the second the second time today he was awake and he was just loving it, zooming around.

Vanessa Spina

But this is like a 600 calorie burn according to my Apple watch. And it was really intense, like very hard work. It looks so easy. Like you're just gliding around, but it's a more intense workout way more than my weights or even running in some ways, but super satisfying if you want like a really intense workout.

Vanessa Spina

So the first time I did it, I, I think I was fasted and, or maybe I had just, I had, I know I didn't have any carbs. I had just had some protein in the morning because I was just doing resistance training in the morning.

Vanessa Spina

And I was struggling. Like I was really struggling during that, that hour. And today I chose to take her advice and I had some carbs before we left and it made a huge difference. I enjoyed it so much more.

Vanessa Spina

I was so much more powerful. It was just a much better workout. So I think I had a banana before we left and I had already had some protein powder earlier. So, you know, I understand the importance of, you know, the fasting windows for some people.

Vanessa Spina

And I was like that for so many years, but I think, Like I said, when we first started talking, I use those strategies specifically to help me lose fat. It was very effective keto. Although it has been said to not be the best diet for building muscle, it is, it has been said to be the best diet for losing fat.

Vanessa Spina

There's lots of different ways to do that as well. Even you know, high carb, low fat, or moderate carb, moderate fat, or however you want to, you know, choose your fuel mix. But I think, depending on where you're at, intermittent fasting can be amazing when you want to lose some fat.

Vanessa Spina

But I just want to say, don't be afraid of having a little bit of protein or even a little bit of carb before your workout. Especially if according to the research, it can help you recover better. And you might even enjoy working out more.

Melanie Avalon

Are you fasting at all now or are you eating a little bit throughout the day?

Vanessa Spina

So according to the international fasting consensus, I'm still doing intermittent fasting because the minimum is 14 hours. So I'm eating usually between 10 and seven, which is not that different from that's a nine hour eating window.

Vanessa Spina

It's not that different from what I used to do. But I'm glad you asked because it probably sounds like I'm not doing any fasting anymore. I still am. I'm just not doing a 16 eight, but now more doing a 59.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. It's so funny how like when you've been fasting for so long, for longer amounts, like you and I were like 14 sounds, I mean, at least to me, like it doesn't sound like that much, but like it's like so much compared to normal, you know, like normal standard eating.

Melanie Avalon

We come from a different, you know, paradigm now, having been in the fasted world so long. I had one other thought about that. Oh, speaking of the fasting definition. So at the time of this recording that episode actually is this week, like is airing this week.

Melanie Avalon

It's funny because we do each time we do four different subject lines in the email. And then long story short, if people run email campaigns, they'll know how this works. But we do different subject lines.

Melanie Avalon

And then the most popular subject line, it sends the majority of the email or half of the emails to the most popular one. So when we were coming up with the lines this week, I saw all the different ones.

Melanie Avalon

And I knew that it was that week. And so I was like, we have to do something about the fasting definition. And so that that subject line was like, finally, we have a definition for fasting. And that was the most popular winner.

Melanie Avalon

So if you want to know the definition

Vanessa Spina

Yes, and I am planning to interview Dr. Grant Tinsley who spearheaded that paper.

Melanie Avalon

It's so exciting. Awesome. Yeah. So, you know, that was, that was super helpful. And I would love to interview Dr. Sims and maybe she, I'd be curious if interviewing her, if it would change my mind. And by, by change my mind, I mean, I think it's great that approach and that concern surrounding women and under fueling.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm not, it's not changed my mind on that. Like, I think it's, I think a lot of women do under fuel and do need more fuel. And I think a lot of women just in general could benefit from having this other approach to fasting.

Melanie Avalon

So I think that's great. I guess my, my thing, I'd be curious if I would change my mind on is does every woman need to adjust to that? So for example, like Michelle working out in the morning, doesn't love eating in the morning either, and hasn't communicated anything about not feeling well doing that.

Melanie Avalon

Like maybe, maybe she's not, but I'd be really, really curious if my thoughts would change on if you're a woman and you're doing physical activity and you feel fine and you're doing it fasted. Like, is that a problem?

Melanie Avalon

I'm assuming she would say that is still a problem.

Vanessa Spina

You'd have to ask her directly, but I think, okay, on the one hand, like I said earlier, she mentioned that these tools do have a place when someone is, say, obese, or has PCOS, or is metabolically unfit.

Vanessa Spina

So her, I think, concern is more for women who are not in that situation and are already really lean, maybe lower body fat percentage, and then are at that risk of under-feeling because you also don't have a lot of stored fuel at that point, right?

Vanessa Spina

I would say, if you were to ask her, I don't know exactly what she would say, but I would say she would probably say something like, you could do it, but you might shortchange like some of your recovery or some of your hormone levels.

Vanessa Spina

One thing that she's also really big on is eating more protein when you're older. So if you're targeting 30 grams of protein per meal, if you're postmenopausal, she believes you should target more like 40 grams of protein per meal, and her protein recommendations are on the upper end.

Vanessa Spina

It's closer to 1.1 gram of protein per pound of body weight to 1.2, very specific. Again, based on a lot of research. So she's on the upper end of protein recommendations. I think that's because of, you know, she's talking more specifically to an athletic population.

Vanessa Spina

I didn't really ask her a lot of questions about postmenopause, so I know that, so for example, Michelle, she just turned 40, so probably not even perimenopausal yet, or maybe, but she did mention something specifically to women who are in perimenopause, and she has two amazing books.

Vanessa Spina

I think one of them is called Roar, I'm reading it right now. The other one is sort of a follow-up to that one, so I think she has specific recommendations for people in different stages, so I don't really know what exactly, because you mentioned, you know, especially as we age and our hormones change, so maybe you're experiencing some hormonal changes, you'd have to ask her directly to know for sure what she would say.

Melanie Avalon

Somebody else who might be an interesting person to listen to would be Dr. Mindy Peltz. She talks a lot about menopause and fasting.

Vanessa Spina

Our last question is from Diane and the subject is glycogen stores. Does the food you eat during your feast affect your glycogen stores? For example, if I eat a salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than if I have pasta or maybe extra wine with dinner?

Vanessa Spina

Does when you eat the pasta during the fast affect how fast you burn the stored glycogen? For instance, if I open with pasta and close with a snack of turkey, does that change the way it burns? I'm truly enjoying your podcasts and learn something new every week.

Vanessa Spina

Keep up this important work, ladies.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, Diane. Thank you for your question. And so we think we think she's probably combining two different words in her question, because it's a word that is not a word. So I think she's confused between glycogen and glucagon.

Melanie Avalon

And she kind of made a new word from that, which is awesome. We love creativity. But assuming she's referring to glycogen, which is stored glucose in our liver and our muscles. So the answer is yes. Yes, and is the answer.

Melanie Avalon

So basically, I think it's more important to have a broader view of everything. So rather than thinking about it, like in this specific meal, this order of the food is going to lead to this storage of the glycogen in this order.

Melanie Avalon

It's more about the entire meal. How much glycogen are you going to store from it? And then in the fasted state, what is the hierarchy of burning fuel? So glycogen, like I said, it comes from glucose.

Melanie Avalon

So any food that has carbs can become glycogen. We can also create glucose from excess protein. The pathway there is a little bit longer. And the carbs are going to be the main thing that are more instantly filling up your glycogen stores.

Melanie Avalon

So like in her example of salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than pasta? Most likely, yes. Well, I mean, but it also depends on the dressing. You know, it's a dressing like really high, like honey mustard, sugar.

Melanie Avalon

So it really just depends on the amount of carbs and glucose that actually end up getting stored. It's like the net carb load. The interesting thing about the extra wine, and this is why it relates to what we were saying earlier, is that wine actually does temporarily, or alcohol, does temporarily decrease glycogen stores, or it can, and decrease blood sugar levels because it turns off the process where the liver is creating glucose and glycogen itself,

Melanie Avalon

gluconeogenesis. And what's interesting about that, which is another tangent side note, but the majority of the blood sugar in your bloodstream is not what you just ate. The majority of it is from your liver churning it out.

Melanie Avalon

So that's a little bit, a slight misconception people have. And that's how things may work like berberine, like my berberine supplement, for example, which can lower blood sugar and metformin, and they may be working in part by impeding the ability of the liver to produce glucose.

Melanie Avalon

Back to the question. She's asking about, you know, the order of it. So like opening a pasta, closing with turkey, does that change the way it burns? At least for storing glycogen, I wouldn't think about it that way so much because it's really going to be the net load of the overall meal.

Melanie Avalon

Because when you're in the eating state, you're in the eating, the fuel storing state, regardless. I would eat in an order that both, that best benefits your digestion and your hunger levels, which might relate to this a little bit.

Melanie Avalon

But for example, people often find, and we talk about this a lot, like opening a protein and centering your meal around protein can have a really safe shading effect, get you the nutrients you need. And then you might find that, you know, having carbs after might be a better approach for you.

Melanie Avalon

You can try different things. This is where CGM really comes in handy. And we've talked a lot about CGM's on today's show. So if you would like a continuous glucose monitor, you can go to Nutrisense.com slash if podcast and you can use the coupon code if podcast to get a discount.

Melanie Avalon

I believe it's $30 off and one free month of free nutritionist support. So we really recommend that. But just to wrap up Diane's question. So yes, it would be the overall net load, mostly of carbs, protein a little bit as well.

Melanie Avalon

But a lot of that's from carbs is determining your glycogen stores. And then oh, one last thing, as far as burning, so like the hierarchy of burning in the fasted state, we naturally burn the glycogen from our liver.

Melanie Avalon

And once we deplete that, that's when we enter into the fat burning. Well, that's when we can more likely enter into the ketogenic state. The glycogen in our muscles is actually saved for like muscle related activity.

Melanie Avalon

So we don't really tap into that while fasting, at least not like in a daily fast. Do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina

That was the most perfect summary and answer ever. There's nothing I could possibly add to that

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Thank you. Well, so hopefully that was helpful, Diane. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Loving the questions. We're approaching next week is episode 399. It's a special guest episode with Barry Conrad, who's back on the show.

Melanie Avalon

Definitely check it out because we dive deep. Actually, it's kind of like the flip side of today's conversation. We dive deep into fasting as a man. He maintains an epic, epic body composition, does his daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon

We talk about his eating window. We talk about how much time he spends in the gym, which is not a lot of time at all. He's an actor and he's in a lot of really cool things. So definitely check that episode out next week.

Melanie Avalon

And then 400 after that, we're going to do something special. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions at ipodcast.com, or you can go to ipodcast.com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon

You can get the show notes at ipodcast.com slash episode 398. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ipodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. All right. I think that is all the things.

Melanie Avalon

Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina

I had so much fun. I love all the questions and can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon

Likewise, I will talk to you in two weeks. Okay.

Vanessa Spina

Sounds great. Bye.

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed.

Melanie Avalon

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon

See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 271 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Mary - Slow weight loss

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #75 - Joel Greene (Part 1)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #88 - Joel Greene (Part 2)

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#193 – AMA #31: Heart rate variability (HRV), alcohol, sleep, and more

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Listener Q&A: Deborah - LDL higher since IF

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 271 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. And no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get sugar free, nitrate free, heritage breed bacon for life, plus $10 off. Yes, free bacon for life, plus $10 off. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding grazing practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. That's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves, but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. 

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible, the average cost is actually less than $6 per meal, and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, “This is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life.” On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks. And their bacon, for example is from pastured pork, and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? I'm super excited, because ButcherBox’ bacon for life is back and it's even better, because you get $10 off as well. Yep, right now, new members will get one pack of free bacon in every box for the life of your membership, plus $10 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's one pack of free bacon in every box for the rest of your life plus $10 off. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last four years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check on my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products. Deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. And you can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 271 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey there. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well. How are you? Now, we're three days before our vacation. So, I'm super excited.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I'm really excited for you. I can't wait to see the pictures from all the places. Are you guys’ big touristy people? Do you do all the touristy stuff or how do you approach a vacation?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it depends. My kids, well, I should say, we've been incredibly fortunate that even when our kids were younger, it has always been a big priority to expose them to different countries and travel. Believe it or not, there's ways to do that very affordably. I think there's this perception that it's all obscenely expensive. I think a Disney vacation could cost as much as or even more than going to Europe, as one example. We find a balance. To me, I always like to stay in places where it's not so touristy. When we've stayed in Paris, we have stayed in areas where it's still wonderful, but you can walk right outside and go to a café, and I like to go to grocery stores in there, I like to make picnics. To me, there's a lot to be said if you're really exposed to the culture. We'll do cooking classes and we'll still see some of the iconic sights when we're in certain cities. But to me, it's a combination of togetherness, and connection, and being able to be exposed to different cultures, and see museums. My kids actually if you were to ask them their favorite thing they've seen in London as an example, they would say, Westminster Abbey. We're definitely a family that like to be inspired when we go on vacation, but I'm also not someone that necessarily wants to do a lot of tourist trapeze stuff. 

We like good food and we definitely do our due diligence prior to arriving. We're going to be in Prague for a couple days and where we're staying is like a restored monastery. It's got this cool vibe and everything I've heard about Prague is that it's beautiful, and the people are wonderful, and I'm just looking forward to just exploring, and not having too too much plans. One thing I don't like on a vacation is feeling micromanage like, “Oh, every day, we get up and we do this and every day we get up and we do that.” There's built in downtime, which I think is really important, especially coming off of the book launch. I feel I owe my family a lot of family time and connection. I feel there hasn't been as much of that over the last six months. 

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to Budapest? 

Cynthia Thurlow: We are and we're ending in Budapest and I'm super excited.

Melanie Avalon: I was talking with a friend actually, the girl who does my hair at the salon this week, and she was going on and on about Budapest, and she said her favorite thing there was, have you heard of the bone chapel? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to go there? I like the creepy morbid stuff.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, it's interesting, because we had the ability to stay longer in Budapest. We opted not to just because of the proximity at the time we were booking this with the Ukraine and all the unrest that was going on there. I just said, “Okay, well, we'll just be in Budapest for two days,” and then we'll head home, but the heading home part is a little less fun than the going to, because Budapest doesn't fly direct to any major place that's close to where we're going. We have to fly to Paris, and then Paris to Boston, and Boston to our new hometown. So, it'll be a long leg back. But I kept saying the kids, I was like, “It's going to be so great. We don't have to fly into New York, which is great,” because I don't know if anyone listening is flown into. Anytime you fly internationally, there are certain airports you want to avoid when you have to go through immigration and it's been my experience in New York is one of those that you want to avoid. So, I'm actually happy we're flying into Boston, little smaller of an airport, but we'll see. 

Melanie Avalon: Very nice. I'm just thinking, my favorite thing in London was probably Tower of London and in Paris going back to the morbid stuff. Have you been in the catacombs?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have. But I haven't done that with my kids and so, I think there'll be old enough this time when we go back. You know it is, I'm a total Francophile. I actually love the culture, and the food, and just how Parisians are unlike anywhere else in the world and it's such a beautiful city. I love the architecture and I don't know I just absorb it all.

Melanie Avalon: I remember when I was there, we were eating on a street café, and a girl from my film fraternity walked by, I was like, “What are the odds?” Makes you wonder and especially, people that you meet in the future who you might have crossed paths with. It's just crazy. How can be such a big world, but such a small world?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny. My cousin and I were just talking yesterday, and she's actually going to Paris with one of her college friends, and she was saying, “Oh, the exchange rates fantastic. You can really get a nice bag.” I was like, “Oh, don't make me jealous.” The last few times I've been there, the lines are so long that I've just completely discouraged me from procuring a bag at a great price. I just said, “I'll live vicariously through you.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the shopping. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm. That's dangerous. Although, it's funny. When I'm with my husband and my boys, I don't do a lot of shopping, which my husband really appreciates largely, because teenagers don't want to be dragged into any shopping situation. They've always not been big shoppers. I think that's probably been a blessing. So, we go to these amazing cities and I'm not as encouraged to go do that.

Melanie Avalon: My mom is just like a shopaholic. There's more estrogen in my family than testosterone where me and I have a sister and a brother. My brother's the one with all the girls. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, that's funny. Yeah, no, it's funny. I have one sibling, and my brother has all girls, and I've all boys, and I always say, “God has a sense of humor, because if you had asked us before we had kids, I would have ended up with all girls, and he would have ended up with boys.” But I ended up with exactly what I needed. And now that I have boys, I can't imagine-- I’ve three nieces who I love, but now that I have boys, I can't imagine things being any different.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. Love it, love it. I got to see pictures of them for the first time yesterday.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, the other characters. They are characters. One in particular doesn't like his photo being taken anymore. I basically told them their last day of school was June 2nd. I said to them, because obviously, one was in middle school was in high school, now, they're both going to high school in August, and I said, “I didn't get my end of the year photo” and of course, they were giving me a hard time and my husband's like, “You are going to stand on that porch in front of that door with your backpack and you were going to smile or we're going to leave you here.” They both looked at each other like, “Fine.” But it's amazing how when they were younger. They loved having their photos taken, they love doing those first day and last day of school things, and now, I hear my husband saying, “You're doing it for your mother.” So, if anyone's listening and you understand [laughs] why we say just let me take one photo. That's why we say, it's actually hard to find photos of all four of us, because they do everything they can to undermine said photos. They'll make a funny face, they won't smile, my 14-year-old scowls now on purpose, even though he's not like a kid that walks around with that expression on his face, but he'll do it on purpose, and my husband's like, “Your mother does so much for you.” I'm like, “That's right. [laughs] Just do something for me. It'll take 30 seconds.”

Melanie Avalon: I feel the biggest meltdowns we had in our family were always around taking the Christmas photo. Actually, [chuckles] one of the biggest inside jokes in our family is one year we were doing the Christmas photo, and we had a photo of all of us in Rome at the Coliseum, but my mom didn't like that one of her. She had me photoshop her in to another picture at the Coliseum, and we did it in black and white, and I should find it and see if it's noticeable. I guess, we thought it wasn't noticeable. But I do know, I think my dad got some feedback from work colleagues being like, “Did you photoshop in Europe?” [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: That's hilarious. That's hilarious. We are our own worst critics. I know sometimes I'll look at photos of me and I'm like say to my team, “Don't ever use that photo again.” [laughs] But once we don't like a photo, I totally get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I'm the same way. Can I update listeners really quick on my magnesium supplement update? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I know you're eagerly awaiting the launch of my magnesium. By the time this comes out, you know what, it probably is launched by now. Maybe. No, no, it's probably right on the cusp of launching. Get on my email list, so you don't miss the updates. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. But my first serrapeptase supplement did so, so well. The second one I'm doing is magnesium. Magnesium is just such a crucial mineral in our health and wellness. I'm always a proponent of getting nutrition from food, but it can be hard to get all of our nutrients all the time due to our depleted soil today, and our living environment, and our stress depletes magnesium, our lifestyles deplete magnesium. I think a lot of people can really benefit from a magnesium supplement. As you guys know, I wanted to make the best form possible. Mine is going to have eight forms of magnesium. Eight, because actually, my partner and I at MD Logic, we're trying to figure this out how many magnesium types there actually are, I think there's around 17, actually. We picked the eight that we think are most beneficial and it actually has activated cofactors to help you absorb it. So, it has methylated B6 and chelated manganese, no potentially toxic fillers, no rice, no seed oils, no palmitates, no stearates, it's in a glass bottle. Basically, it's the best of the best. 

Then here's the fun thing. We really wanted to include magnesium three and eight in it or I wanted to, which is a specific type of magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier. We had it in the initial formulation, but then we realized that in order to get the full therapeutic amount, it wasn't enough, basically. And also, not everybody wants the mind effects of magnesium three and eight. We're going to release it as a second launch as a nightcap that basically you can add on to your magnesium if you specifically want that relaxation effect, that sleep-inducing effect, and the amazing incentive that we're doing for that is, so, my magnesium supplement is going to be called magnesium spectrum eight. If you get it at launch before we sell out, because I anticipate that we're probably going to sell out. Everybody who gets it from that first run, you'll get a coupon code for when we launch the magnesium three and eight nightcap for a major discount. So, definitely get the magnesium spectrum eight at launch before it sells out. Again, get on the email list because that's where I will be releasing the information. In the meantime, if you'd like a discount on serrapeptase or any supplements at MD Logic, you can use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON for that. But ooh, I'm just really excited. I've been bit by the supplement bug. So, yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's very exciting. I'm very excited to see your product and I look forward to when I can share officially what I'm working on. But I'm starting to respond to people's DMs on Instagram to stay tuned. I will definitely be creating something that is relevant to some of our past conversations.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. I can't wait. [chuckles] Between me and you, we're going to have people covered I think with-- Once we fill out the lines, it's going to be such an amazing resource for people who-- Because the supplement industry is so sketchy and so it can be really hard to find quality stuff and know what you're putting in your body and trust it. It's nice that I think you and I-- We were talking about this before recording how in general, there are a lot of things we want to do, and there are things I want to do that Cynthia might not do, and things Cynthia would want to do that I might not do. So, I think between the both of us, it's going to be really great.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I want to express publicly how grateful I am that you made the intro with this company and I'm really excited because one of the things that I've always been very verbal about is why supplement quality is so critically important and why, generally speaking, you shouldn't source off of big websites like Amazon that most of the pharmaceutical grade companies don't third party source. I'm saying in most instances. And so, it's really nice to know that MD Logic has super high qualities, super high integrity, which I think is also really important and also transparency.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I'm so, so grateful. They're actually making, because some of their products right now have fillers that I personally wouldn't use. That might not be a problem for everybody, but I personally don't like, but they're actually making A, what you said about transparency. They're so transparent. You're not going to have to worry about the quality or things are tested for toxins, things are tested for allergens, but they're also making steps to move towards even less of those ingredients. So, definitely, check out their website. We talked in the past about their melatonin that Cynthia really likes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, my goodness, I laugh about-- Actually, it's interesting, my cousin, who I think the world of and is a physician. She now listens to this podcast. The first thing she said after she listened to that podcast was, “Tell me how to get [laughs] their melatonin because I need that.” She just bought a couple bottles and I'm waiting to get her feedback. But yeah, it's very potent. I've used another brand and really did not find the potency to be equivalent at all. Meaning, the MD Logic was clearly more potent and more potent means you actually will end up using less product. And so, that was really important to me.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, we actually both have codes. You can use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON or CYNTHIATHURLOW and get a discount on the MD Logic products. 

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Melanie Avalon: Well, shall we jump into some questions for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Mary. Subject is: “Slow weight loss.” Mary says, “Hi, I've been listening to your podcast for the last month and I've learned a lot. I have been overweight all my life, but in my teens gained a huge amount of weight due to a shop which we had for three years. I'm thinking maybe this fat does not want to shift because it's been there a long time stored. Can fat laid down for years impact on how slow weight loss occurs or do you think slow weight loss could occur because of the fact that I've passed menopause or I have an office job? I walk for 30 minutes a day in my breaks, I do mostly 20:4 these days. My average weight as an adult has fluctuated from 193 to 167, but I usually hover around 172. When I started IF in July after a stressful year, I was 185 and I'm down 12 pounds to 173. I'm thrilled because it has been very low and I'm aiming to get down to 145 pounds now that I'm not scared of looking old as I realized that autophagy will help with that and also remove the loose skin from my legs, which I've had all my life. I'm thinking to do the DNA test too to see if I would be better off cutting out grains altogether or not. I've included a lot here and I hope that you can give me thoughts on anything I mentioned. Thanks in advance.” Mary is from Tasmania, which is super cool.

Cynthia Thurlow: That is super cool. Well, hi, Mary. Thank you for your question. I would say, first and foremost, give yourself grace. You've been on this journey for a long time and I do find that when women in particular, I don't know your age. It's hard for me to speculate. I think that when women get north of 35, there's a little bit of hormonal flocks that can make weight loss-- can give you some plateaus. I think, first and foremost, we have to really get back to basics. I applaud you for your efforts thus far. Slow and steady wins. We don't want to be losing a nonsustainable amount of weight too quickly. We definitely want to do one to two pounds a week is really what we want to be focused on. I think that your questions about carbohydrates, I would say, we really want to reframe that thinking and be making sure that we are hitting our protein macros. During your feeding window really focusing on good quality animal-based protein, 35 to 40 grams of protein with your meals, which is going to help with satiety. I think non-starchy carbohydrates are a great way to go. I'm not anti-carb, but really earning your carbohydrates. If you're going to have starchy carbs like sweet potato, or root vegetables, or if you tolerate grains, keeping the portions very small especially if you're trying to continue to lose weight and being very mindful of your physical activity, it sounds you do a good amount of walking, which I think is fantastic and that can help with insulin sensitivity as well. 

If you get to a point where you want to start adding in, more things that can help with insulin resistance. Thinking about strength training is very important, getting high quality sleep, which means seven, eight hours a night is very important, and also understanding that if we're aligned with our own chronobiology, if we're really aligned with our sleep-wake cycles, we really want to be eating when it's light outside and not eating when it's dark outside. Now, with that being said, I know you're in a different hemisphere and we're heading into summer and you're heading into winter. That might be a little more challenging. But eating earlier in the day is going to be easier for insulin sensitivity than later in the day. And then obviously, as I mentioned, I don't know your age range, but if you are north of 35 or 40, there're a lot of things to really lean into in terms of your physiology that can help as well. You definitely don't want to be over fasting around your menstrual cycle as well. But I think you're off to a great start. And yes, I do find that long-term insulin resistance, inflammation, and oxidative stress in the body takes a bit of time to get to a point where your body's better calibrated. 

The other thing that I would really encourage you to do is to make sure that you are getting some baseline labs with your primary care provider or internist. You have things to compare to. Really looking at inflammatory markers, things like high-sensitivity CRP, looking your fasting insulin, really examining, looking at your lipid profile, which here in the States we're looking at triglycerides, and HDL and LDL, and then looking at your sex hormones as well to get a good sense and a good baseline so that you have something to compare it to.

Melanie Avalon: That was all really great, really comprehensive. I'll just speak briefly. I'll just add to it about the does fat not want to shift because it's been there a long time stored and does the amount of time that it's there affect? It's basically your weight loss potential. There's actually quite a few factors involved here. I know Cynthia and I have both interviewed Joel Greene for his mind-blowing book. His book is very intense. The Immunity Code, that's what it's called, I think. He talks a lot in his book about the extracellular matrix, the ECM. Basically, it's kind of like the clothing on your body in a way and how if you lose weight and your clothing is now too loose, how it is a lot of energy intensive to alter your clothes, and take it in, and make it fit. Your body would almost rather just wait until you regain the weight and keep the clothes on. That was not a very scientific answer. Only to provide more context. Basically, the extracellular matrix, he talks about how every time we lose weight this fluctuation in weight loss, the fat cell is having less fat in it and it still has this matrix that is too loose in a way for the fat cell. The body would rather just fill up the fat cell again, then actually, address that matrix and make it smaller, and that's one of the reasons that the body would prefer to just regain weight rather than maintain a sustained loss. 

He talks about how every time we lose and regain and lose and regain, it actually becomes harder and harder to make the changes to that matrix. It actually becomes stiffer. Basically, the longer you've had the fat, especially if you are fluctuating back and forth, which it sounds you have done, it might make it harder each time to have a more permanent change with the fluctuations. Something else that I think is so, so huge and this is something that people don't talk about a lot, but our exposure to endocrine disrupters through our diet, our lifestyle, our environment, especially our skincare and makeup, those compounds mess with our hormones, and can get stored in our fat cells, and they're even compounds called obesogens. These are endocrine disruptors, which actually make the fat cell more likely to gain weight, more likely to be inflammatory, more insulin resistant, and less likely to lose weight, and then it gets even worse. Basically, it's self-perpetuating. When our fat cells enter this signaling state of inflammation and weight gain, they signal to the rest of the cells to also do this as well. The longer you've been alive, the longer you've probably been exposed to endocrine disruptors and obesogens, especially if you're using conventional skincare makeup, if you're using conventional skincare makeup, you're most definitely putting these compounds into your body. That can have a huge effect. 

You could be doing all the things and dieting, but there could be hormonal signals because of these endocrine disruptors in your fat cells that are making it harder to actually lose weight. A reason that Cynthia and I love Beautycounter, for example, because they make skincare makeup that is free of endocrine disruptors and obesogens. There's also-- The number three would be, there's a set point theory. This is debated and I've done deep dives into this, but it does seem that the hypothalamus in our brain basically perceives a weight that it wants to be at and it will defend that weight. Some people think that there is a timeline aspect to it, so that basically, the longer you've been at a certain weight, the more your body's going to want to stay there. It's possible that even when you lose weight that you have to stay at it for a certain period of time before that resets in the hypothalamus. Again, this is debated, there's not a ton of literature on it I found some, but just anecdotally and from what I see with people, it does seem to be a thing. I say all of that to validate you and that yes, it is quite likely that it is harder to lose the weight, because of the time that you've been alive and what you've experienced. I actually want to be empowering and all of that aside, you can definitely work with your body hormonally, and through diet, and with fasting, and it's not like this is a closed door. Once you have the knowledge, you can be empowered to make the change that will actually work for you.

Then just the very last thing, I don't know what DNA tests you will be doing to check about the grains. I'm just curious what that would be because normally the testing for grains would be something like a food sensitivity tests, but those are heavily debated. I don't know what your thoughts are on food sensitivity tests, Cynthia.

Cynthia Thurlow: I do see some value. I don't use them as often as I used to, because typically when I'm working in a group, we'll do a broad-based Whole 30 and that usually knocks out most things that people are sensitive to whether they're aware of it or not. I know that there's some genetic susceptibility to-- There's a small percentage and I don't even know the statistics offhand. There are some people that don't do as well off of grains, although, I do find it's usually someone who's already insulin resistant that is craving the grains or craving the carbohydrates. I do think broad-based elimination diets like a Whole 30, which there's tons of recipes. Unlike 10 years ago, when I think I first did a Whole 30, you had to make your own ketchup, and you have to make your own mustard, which is craziness. Now, there are Whole 30 compliant things that you can buy ahead of time, which is really nice. But that can oftentimes be very beneficial for people to determine what their specific threshold is. I do find, especially for most of the women, I work with that gluten grains and dairy can be hugely inflammatory, not to mention the processed sugar. So, pulling them out even for a month can be very insightful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I do think that can be the gold standard for a lot of people is doing that short term. It might be long term if you stay on a Whole 30 type approach, but at least a short-term “elimination diet” of sorts can really be a way to figure out what is inflammatory for you personally. Actually, this will tie into the next question, I have done, because I have my data from-- Did you do 23andMe? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I did.

Melanie Avalon: I did a Facebook group version of it. It was called Genes for Good and it was a research project on Facebook. It was completely free and you got your genetic data. It basically was the equivalent of 23andMe. But I have run that data, well, through Prometheus, which is a mind-blowing rabbit hole of looking through everything, but also through different services that will interpret it for you. It basically told you how well you processed grains, carbs or different food-related things and then alcohol. I was red for everything and green for alcohol. So, basically, genetically, I was like, “I'm good with wine and nothing else,” which will tie in to the next question. But any other thoughts about this question? I guess, there's also the celiac test, but it's a little bit different.

Cynthia Thurlow: Obviously, Australia has progressive allopathic medicine routes. I don't know what the gold standard is there. Here, they generally like to do biopsies and there's different ways around it. But autoimmunity is not at all uncommon to see in women and especially women having-- All of us have been through a pandemic the last two years, we've been under unprecedented amounts of stress would not be at all unlikely that there could be something else at play. But that's why I think getting a check in with your primary, get those labs done, especially thyroid function, which I don't think I mentioned earlier, looking at those sex hormones, looking at a fasting insulin, inflammatory markers, all that could be very helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Shall we go to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Denite. “Alcohol should have cancer warning labels,” say doctors and researchers pushing to raise awareness of risk. “I sure enjoy your podcast and want to say thank you for all the work you do. I came across the article below and it piqued my interest. I do not drink alcohol myself, but my father and mother-in-law recently started drinking wine and/or gin every night to help them sleep. My father-in-law also has high cholesterol and someone suggested he drink wine to lower it. What do you think about the articles claims of the carcinogens in alcohol? In your opinion, do the benefits outweigh the risks? I know that you promote Dry Farm Wines and I actually suggested to my in-laws that they check them out as a better and healthier option. I would love to talk to my in-laws about intermittent fasting for the lowering of cholesterol, but I feel that they will not understand it and just shrug it off. Do you have any advice for me on how to broach the subject in a way that they will understand the great benefits of it and at least give it a try? Thank you so much for your help.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Denite. Thank you for your question. She actually had two questions and actually didn't plan this, but our next question ties into the cholesterol. Maybe when we get her cholesterol question, we can read that second question and do that all together. To talk about the alcohol, okay, we've been looking forward to talking about this for a while. I have so many thoughts. First of all, I will start this off by saying, I have no agenda either way about if you do or do not drink alcohol. I just say that because I know my book is What When Wine and I've been very vocal about being a fan of the benefits of wine for health and how I personally really love wine. And yes, I drink Dry Farm Wines, which we can maybe talk a little bit why we love them in particular. The thing about alcohol is, whatever opinion you hold about it, if you want to support that opinion with hundreds of studies from the scientific literature, you can do that. The reason I'm saying that is because I want to step back and I say that I think context is so key. Because if you want to say it's a carcinogen and nobody should ever drink it, you can find tons of studies probably showing that. On the flipside, if you want to say, it's the best thing for longevity, and supports heart health, and everybody should be drinking, you're going to be able to find tons of studies showing that. So, I think it really does come down to the individual. 

Yes, alcohol is a carcinogen and that's what the link is talking about. If it was a carcinogen, which it is, but if that was the end, so if alcohol is our carcinogen, so, we shouldn't drink it, period. I don't think the epidemiological data would support what we find, which is that it often correlates to longevity, to reduce cardiovascular health. There's something more going on here that is beyond looking at a potentially reductionistic view of alcohol like saturated fat. I know it's not the same thing, but you could make arguments that a lot of people in the actually plant-based sphere will say, “Saturated fat is a toxin and by itself is just something we should not have.” I don't think that takes into account, the full picture of things. As far as the actual correlations of alcohol to different health conditions, it tends to be a J shaped curve. What that means is basically the biggest benefits correlationally are with low to moderate alcohol consumption. If you're a complete abstainer, if you're not drinking alcohol in most of the studies, you actually have a higher risk of certain things like longevity and cardiovascular health than if you're actually having a small amount of alcohol or a moderate amount of alcohol, and then of course, the J shaped, if you can envision like a J on a graph, it starts a little bit high, and then it curves down, and so that down curve is when you are the low and the moderate drinkers, and then it shoots up. Because once you get to high consumption, then it's correlated to a lot of detrimental health effects. 

As far as the cancer specifically, so, the cancers that alcohol tends to correlate to are related to parts of the body that actually touch alcohol, specifically. Throat cancer, esophageal cancer, stomach cancer, it does also correlate to breast cancer. But then other cancers, there's often found no correlation and even kidney cancer, there seems to be a reduced risk of cancer with alcohol consumption. Then other conditions that correlate to health benefits are diabetes, gallstone, stroke, and many things related to cardiovascular health. I was reading one study. It was a review of alcohol and cancer. It talks about how drinking, especially heavy drinking does increase cancer risk, which is what she's bringing to us with this statement. But the study actually concluded that “total avoidance” of alcohol, although optimum for cancer control cannot be recommended in terms of a broad perspective of public health and particular in countries with high incidence of cardiovascular disease. I think that really speaks to her question because basically they're saying, yes for cancer control, avoiding alcohol is really important. But if you take in the full picture because of cardiovascular disease, having some alcohol intake might actually be beneficial. 

Then just some other last thoughts to it. I think there is something to the context, especially something like wine. The role of the other compounds in wine like polyphenols seem to have a beneficial effect on our health. Even in the blue zones, which I know is hotly debated, but that's seven countries that are linked to longevity, and six out of seven of them all include alcohol in some part in their diet. Something else and-- I feel I'm going all over the place, but something else important to point out is that gender does play a role here and what is low or moderate drinking, and actually, Peter Attia had a really good episode recently on this that I can put a link to in the show notes. It's recommended that women drink less than men and there're two reasons. There could be more, but there're probably two main reasons for that. One is that it has to do with the hydration content of our bodies, and how that affects the metabolism of alcohol, as well as what it's called first pass metabolism in the stomach. Women, because of the levels of that in the stomach, we actually experience a quicker effect from alcohol than men do. That was all over the place. But to step back, basically, I think context is key. What is the role of alcohol in your diet? For example, Denise says that her father and mother are taking it to help them sleep. That is not a reason I would suggest somebody take alcohol to help them sleep because while it is a depressant and it can make you feel sleepy, it actually can have a rebound effect and cause reduced quality sleep in the long term. 

I think the reason that you're having alcohol is important to consider. I wouldn't take it to induce sleep like I would not take it for that reason. I would take it though, maybe she's talking about high cholesterol and the benefits there that might be a reason to include it in your diet. I also think maybe reason that we see a lot of longevity with people who drink could be the-- especially not the heavy drinkers, but just people who have it in their life as part of a healthy lifestyle. I think there's a social aspect to it. Not advocating turning to alcohol for stress relief, but I think some people, especially low to moderate drinkers, it's a part of their ritual, it's part of their lifestyle, it does provide stress-relieving benefits, and I don't think we should discount that, because I think that can have a huge, huge effect on health. I do want to mention, because a lot of studies will find that like I said that low to moderate drinking is better than complete abstainers. That's a little bit confusing though because people who abstain often were heavy drinkers. The data might be a little bit convoluted and that it can be hard to separate people who don't drink at all from people who were alcoholics and just aren't drinking now. That was all over the place. Cynthia, I'll let you provide some perspectives.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, you brought up some really good points. Like you said, at the very beginning of the answer that question is, there's almost always research that will support whatever prevailing philosophy you have. I do, however, want to be very transparent and say that one of the things about alcohol that lot of people don't talk about is, people drink alcohol because they think it helps them sleep. We know that it disrupts your REM sleep, it reduces melatonin, it increases cortisol, it dysregulates your blood sugar. For people who suffer with hot flashes, it can actually make them worse. The vasomotor symptoms, a lot of people experience in perimenopause and menopause. There's actually some research to demonstrate that alcohol, of course, is considered to be a toxin and it can actually shrink the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that actually helps regulate the HPA or the hypothalamus pituitary axis, which why is that important because this is our main communicator from our brain to our endocrine system. If this is dysregulated and for a lot of people it has been. We've dealt with a lot of stress the last two years. And so, a lot of the work that I do is helping people understand the interrelationship between stress and the net impact on the body. 

The other thing that I would mention that I think is important about alcohol, as we know, it impairs estrogen metabolism. Most of our estrogen metabolism occurs in the liver. We have Phase 1 and Phase 2 liver detoxification. It's important to understand that this puts a burden on the liver. If you're drinking excessively and often they can actually impair the way that your body packages up and gets rid of estrogen. Melanie touched on earlier, we can get exposed to estrogen mimicking chemicals in our environment, personal care products and food, and you laid that on with a lot of alcohol drinking, it can really up your risk of things like fibroids, and even breast cancer. It's interesting a lot of the work that I do is looking at women's breast cancer risks. And so, you really have to make the decision that makes most sense for you. There's no judgement from either of us about whether people choose to drink or they don't choose to drink, but you want to make sure that you're doing it responsibly. Obviously, if you're drinking alcohol to help you sleep, it really isn't helping you sleep. If you're drinking alcohol to help manage stress, we have to be thinking broadly about ways that we can manage that really effectively. 

The last thing that I want to add is that I moved from a very much a drinking culture, the environment that I lived in, in my last city. I think for a lot of women, there's the mommy drinking culture and just being aware, building awareness about our habits, and how that can influence decisions that we make the joke is, I don't drink alcohol because it's the only thing that gives me hot flashes and it wrecks my sleep, and so that's my personal choice. But obviously, I work with many women who do choose to drink alcohol. I always look at it from a very objective opinion to make sure that people fully understand the impact of alcohol and just being responsible about it. I think that's the big takeaway that I would say that I think is important that I love that this young woman is so concerned about her in laws and wants to help educate them about good decision making. Maybe it really needs to just come from a place of sometimes with men I feel if you're really straightforward and just let them know, actually, it's not helping your sleep, let's think of some other ways to help you sleep. That might be an effective strategy.

Melanie Avalon: I love that and I also think it's important-- I know Cynthia and I have talked about this. I think it's very possible to understand that alcohol may or may not work for some people, and may be a detriment to some people, and still provide a resource to people who do want to drink. So, the Dry Farm Wines, for example, because Cynthia, you don't drink, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I don't. I made that decision during the pandemic because I was like, “It's the only thing that makes me get hot flashes and it just wrecks my sleep.” In my hierarchy of my life, as a 50-year-old woman, my sleep is pretty important. [laughs] Because of that the one thing that I needed to eliminate and it's amazing to me, Melanie, how triggering that is for people. I always say like, “I don't judge what other people do.” We even had a party at our house last night and it made people uncomfortable that I wasn't drinking. I said, “I'm totally fine. I'm here drinking my LMNT electrolytes and I'm great. I'm totally happy,” because I'm not going to go to bed dehydrated, I'm not going to go to bed and wreck my sleep, I'm going to hit the pillow, and I'm not going to wake up until I wake up. It's a very interesting dynamic as I try to navigate reassuring people, I'm completely fine in this space. There are no issues that I have whatsoever. People choose to drink. Of course, my husband drinks responsibly, but it's an interesting place to navigate. Figuring out what works best for us and the N of 1 that very powerful value of bio-individuality figuring out what works for you or what doesn't.

Melanie Avalon: It's similar to I feel, if you are doing fasting and you're not partaking in the food situation for whatever reason at a social gathering and people can be very triggered or pressure you to that you need to be eating to enjoy yourself. Especially if I go to, so, not like a dinner, but a gathering where there's food involved, I'll often just not eat. I just would be happier if I go and then I'll eat later. It's so interesting, people-- the social pressure. I used to really struggle with it, but now, I just realized like, “I don't owe anybody anything. I can just do what will make me feel the best in the situation.” But social pressure is definitely very interesting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: Going back to the Dry Farm Wines, so, you don't drink and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but based on the conversation that we just had, I think we can both understand for some people that they do have a healthy relationship with alcohol and for them it's beneficial that we can provide a resource like Dry Farm Wines, for example. So, for the people who do want to drink can do it in the healthiest way.

Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly, they have healthy choices. Yeah. I think one of the things I did not know, until I dove down that wine rabbit hole is just how many contaminants are in wine, and how they're exposed to so many chemicals, and how most of the wineries here in the United States really don't even protect consumers. That was something that when I found that out, I was like, “Wow.” I make good use of buying Dry Farm Wines for family members or friends as gifts and just to try to introduce them to products that are certainly cleaner and safer.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. For listeners, who aren't familiar with Dry Farm Wines, because it's really shocking if you think about it. If you go buy a bottle of wine, there's not a label. There's not a nutrition label. It doesn't show the ingredients. You would think it's just fermented grapes, but it's not usually, especially in conventional wines in the US, they have additives, they have stabilizers, they have colorizers, there's something called mega purple, which is actually to make wine look more purple. If you've ever had wine, especially if it's cheaper wine and you've noticed that it really stains your teeth like red, wine shouldn't do that. Not to the extent that it can when you're drinking cheap wine. It's not from the grapes. It's from this mega purple color additive, which is just shocking to me. Dry Farm Wines, I am obsessed with Dry Farm Wines. They're all a drink. 

They go throughout Europe and they won't even do wines from the US, because they said none of the wines in the US meet their standards. They find all of these wineries practicing organic practices, because there are a lot of wineries that are being organic, but they don't have the time or the money to get an organic certification. They test the wines and then they make sure the wines are free of toxins, free of additives, free of mold, free of pesticides, dry farmed, meaning, they're not pumped up with water. The wines are also low alcohol and low sugar. They're all 12.5% alcohol or less and they're all less than, is it 0.5 or one gram of sugar. They're all low sugar. When I drink Dry Farm Wines, it's such a difference. When I drink “normal wine” if I'm at a dinner or something I'm like, “Oh, this is either too sweet or high alcohol.” I really, really recommend them. You can actually get a bottle for a penny at our link which is at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast. I as well, Cynthia, I gift it to so many people, especially when the holidays come, I'm like, “Okay, just going to send the Dry Farm Wines to all the people.”

Cynthia Thurlow: No, and it's so easy. It's funny. My husband really likes their reds. The thing about Dry Farm Wines is you get three bottles, or you get six bottles, or 12 bottles. And so, they pick them out for you and my husband, who is pretty picky about his red wine, actually, he's really liked what they've been sending recently.

Melanie Avalon: I think they've really evolved because I've been promoting them since almost a long time. In the beginning, I just think they found so many more wineries that the wines just continued to get better and better. What's really cool you can do, I did this literally yesterday because like Cynthia said, you get a mixed collection of wines. You don't choose them. If there's one that you really like, you can actually email them and order that bottle specifically. You can do an order of three. I asked if I could get two of one and then one of another, and they were actually out of the one, but they said they would pick one that was similar to it, and put that in there. So, I'm excited.

Cynthia Thurlow: Do you want to hear a fun fact? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I love fun facts.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I am speaking at an event in July here in Virginia, which never happened. Like unicorn event in Virginia and it's me, and Vinnie Tortorich, and Dr. Phil Ovadia, who's this cardiovascular surgeon who's changed his life by eating a low-carb lifestyle, and fasting, and then actually, Todd White will be there. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Cynthia Thurlow: I’ll get to meet him in person.

Melanie Avalon: I've actually interviewed him twice, I think. Have you interviewed him on your show?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. It's on our fall to-do list. As I'm sure is a podcast, you have a podcast where you have people and we're booking into December, and some people want us to create other slots, and I'm really, now that the book launch is behind me, I'm trying to be very deliberate about my availability. Because as an example, I have three podcasts this week to record and sometimes, the unicorns pop up and you have to say yes. Both you and I are interviewing Mark Sisson this week, which is really super-duper exciting. It's hard to find balance. I struggle constantly and one thing I've told my family is heading into the summer, I'm always working in my business. But I'm only working in my business where I'm visible on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays this summer, because I want to be able to spend time with my kids and not be working constantly. So, hopefully, I'll get to interview him in the fall.

Melanie Avalon: For Mark Sisson, was that a last minute? Was that a spontaneous thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: It was. The opportunity came up, I was told he was in town literally, in the country for two days. And so, I was like, “I have an opening on Tuesday. I'll make that happen.” So, it was that spontaneous.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I wonder if the two days are-- Because I'm interviewing him the day after you.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly. I think that's exactly what it is and then I think he's out of the country again. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: So, yeah. When you have those unicorn interviews and one thing I think is really cool about-- I know this isn't relevant to this podcast, but I'm sure listeners, we've interviewed some people, we've had overlap and others we haven't, but I've listened to your interviews that I've done interviews with, and we get different information. If you're a really good interviewee, you can get different information. I'm sure you probably have interviewed people that they spout the same rhetoric to everyone they talk to, but I think we've been fortunate that we've been able to interview some pretty dynamic individuals that really make interviewing them. It’s just such a blessing, it's such an amazing experience.

Melanie Avalon:  I know. I am so grateful and I'm so excited to see how both of our interviews go.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm sure Mark doesn't remember me, but I met him actually in-- Not intentionally met him. I literally was not paying attention. My head was going in one direction, my body was going another, and I bumped into him. He was very polite and that's what struck me he was incredibly polite. I didn't realize, when I ran into him who it was until I fan geeked after he walked away and then I was like, “Oh, my God, I just ran into Mark Sisson. How does that happen?” And he could not have been more polite.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I love that. Can I tell you what was my funniest celebrity run and moment that but I didn't realize like yours that you didn't realize? This is so funny. I was doing a really small little feature bit in a commercial. I didn't know much about the project and so the director came up to me, and he said his name, and I didn't really hear, and then I said, “Sorry, what was your name again?” He said his name then he walked aside, and then I specifically sought him out and said like, “Sorry, what was your name again?” It was Lance Bass.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I guess, that's forgivable. I think it's good to be humbled. I really, really think it's important to be humbled. It's been my experience. Sometimes, I go to events or places and everyone knows me. Sometimes, I go to events and people, no one knows me. I always say to my husband, he's usually with me, “It's actually good to be humbled.” It's actually a good thing to sometimes have people not know who you are.

Melanie Avalon: It was just funny because I remember I said, “What was your name again?” He said, “Lance” and then I walked away and I was like, “Oh.” [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's hilarious. Like I said, it's good to be humbled, right?

Melanie Avalon: Growing up, I was very sheltered. I was like NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, Britney. I was exposed to them through school and the skate rink, but they were not in my collection. I was not watching, listening to their stuff at home. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay. So, I'm now curious. What does “I was sheltered mean”? What does that represent? I want more information.

Melanie Avalon: A very Christian-- I don't want to say moral because that sounds you're not moral, if you're not Christian. But everything had to be filtered through focus on the Family, and nothing sexual, and so things like Britney Spears, and even NSYNC, and all of that was not something I was listening to the Christian pop stuff.

Cynthia Thurlow: Do want to hear something funny. The very first time I saw Britney Spears on a video, I was like, “Oh my gosh, she's going to be a flash in the pan.”

Melanie Avalon: Really? [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, because you have to remember, I was at different stage of life, I was in my 20s, and I was like, “What is this?” Because it was so highly sexualized. Her very first single that came out that I remember, we were at a party and of course all the guys were gawking at her. I remember just thinking like, “Oh, every other teenybopper teenage oversexualized singer that's out there. Where was I wrong?”

Melanie Avalon: Because I know a lot of people can feel they were suppressed or they could be resentful. I'm not a rebellious type and I don't feel bothered by that upbringing specifically. But even looking back now, I'm like, “Oh, yeah.” I don't think my mom was being crazy and not wanting me as like a third-grade girl to be watching Britney Spears’ stuff. Looking at it now, I'm like, “Oh, yeah, that is little bit sexual.” [chuckles] 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because I view things through the eyes of a parent. My husband and I were making returns, which this is completely irrelevant to the conversation, but I'm going to just to share. I'm the type of person I'm now in a city where the shopping is terrible. I buy a bunch of stuff online and I just bring it all back. My husband was walking around with me as I was making these returns, and there were a couple of young women that passed us who were probably teenagers, maybe early 20s, and my husband was like, “Thank God, we have boys because I don't know what I would do if my daughter walked out of the house with her boobs hanging out and super short, booty shorts. I know that a lot of that's the style.” It's not a judgment. It was just funny that he said that because of course, the boys there're a lot less options for them and certainly, there's not stuff hanging out when they go out. But it's very interesting viewing things as a parent like things that maybe weren't on my radar in my 20s and 30s that I now seen, I'm like, “Oh, God, that's bad.” Meaning, that's an oversexualized representation of what a young woman could be doing for herself positively or negatively.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Friday nights were the Friday night skate nights and I loved it because that's when I got to hear all the music, because it's really-- It was the prime time of really good solid pop music. Her music’s really amazing for pop. [laughs] So, needless to say, that is why I did not recognize Lance Bass is my excuse.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's a good thing. You probably humbled him enormously.

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Melanie Avalon: Okay. And then to briefly address Denite’s other question and I'll go ahead and read the second question we had because it all ties together. So, Deborah, her subject was: “LDL higher since IF.” She just said, “I've gotten my best friend to join me in IF, but after only two months her blood work came back with an LDL of 148. Previously, it was completely normal. Her son, who was an RN told her that's why he stopped IF. Help, research on this,” and then as a refresher, so, Denite’s question was about “Intermittent fasting for lowering cholesterol and actually advocating it to her in-laws” and did we have any thoughts about that? So, fasting and cholesterol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I think everyone by now knows my whole background as an NP for 16 years was in cardiology, so, you better believe I have seen a lot of lipid panels, both straightforward lipid panels, which are total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, triglycerides, and then advanced lipid analysis. Number one, I don't really worry about total cholesterol. In fact, we don't want it to be too low. I had patients on very, very powerful lipid-lowering agents and when their total cholesterol got close to 100, you have to remember what cleaves off of cholesterol that includes our sex hormones. How many patients had erectile dysfunction and other issues related to too low cholesterol? You don't want to be looking for a too low of a total cholesterol. I'm not sure if she was specifically referring to triglycerides and HDL, which I typically see being abnormal, meaning, triglycerides over 150, HDL for men being under 45, women under 55, we know those are pathologic. With that being said, I do generally, when I see someone with an LDL that's “abnormal.” I want more information and I actually don't think 148 for an LDL is all that bad. What you want is more information. You want an advanced lipid analysis, you want to look at particle size. This is super important because not all LDL is bad. 

I think we have to start really re-familiarizing ourselves. This includes healthcare professionals and the general public. There are a lot of physicians, and nurses, and nurse practitioners who are practicing with 30-year-old medicine. I see it all the time because I get this question probably five or six times a week. The first thing is you need more information. You need to do an advanced lipid analysis, we used to call it a VAP. I'm not sure what your insurance coverage will cover or even if your physician or nurse practitioner even going to order this, but it is generally covered by insurance. It's looking at LDL particle size. You want light and fluffy like light, fluffy, non-atherogenic. LDL cholesterol is benign. That's actually what I have. Number two, if it's small and dense and you also have concomitant risk factors for cardiovascular disease, or you are insulin resistant, or diabetic, then you've got work to do. Generally, first line of defense is lifestyle management. Can intermittent fasting be part of that? Absolutely. Have I read anything that suggests that you're going to have a worsening of your lipid panel relevant to fasting? No, but it's interesting. 

I always think about Dave Feldman's work. He's an engineer, entrepreneur, and he is doing research in this area. He's changing the way clinicians are practicing because of the work that he's doing. There's actually something called a Lean Mass Hyper Responder. It is beyond the scope of this discussion, but I highly recommend you check out my podcast that I did with him at the tail end of 2020. He's doing a lot of really interesting research. There are a lot of people who actually in a low carb, ketogenic fasted state will actually produce more cholesterol, but it's not pathogenic. I definitely encourage you to dig a little bit deeper, get those advanced lipid analysis done, they are covered by insurance. Not all LDL is bad and I want that to die a death on a hill, because there are a lot of people that are stressed and worried needlessly. 

The other thing that I want to reemphasize is, we do not want our total cholesterol to be too low. When someone says it's high, my question is always quantify it. When you're sending us questions, please tell us how old you are and [chuckles] please tell us, what it is that? If it's too high, tell me what that is, tell me what the lab is, so that I can at least lay my eyes on it. But I would say don't fast because of your concerns relevant to total cholesterol, which is bogus. Not saying you're bogus, but the claims that fasting is somehow going to hurt your cholesterol are bogus. The other thing is if you're told that your LDL is “too high,” you want more information before you get yourself into a panic.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was very comprehensive and you have so much more of a knowledge base about this than I do. So, I'm super grateful for that. The only thing I will add to it is that if you google, go to Google Scholar, you can actually find a lot of studies looking at fasting and cardiovascular health. I'll put links in the show notes to one I found because it was about this specifically. It was time restricted eating to improve cardiovascular health and it was a 2021 review. Looking at everything, but basically, it concluded that the effects of fasting on cholesterol tend to improve parameters when it comes to that and decrease total cholesterol, even though I know Cynthia was just talking about that's not necessarily always the thing, but does it have a beneficial effect on LDL? Interestingly, some studies sometimes don't find any effects on HDL. Not really sure what's going on there, but in general fasting seems to have a beneficial effect on our cholesterol panels. Something that people can experience is an increase in cholesterol transiently due to weight loss. So, that can be something to consider because basically if you're freeing up all of the stored fat, and triglycerides, and it can lead to a transient increase in cholesterol levels. But it's not necessarily-- It doesn't mean that they're increasing over the long term. Then one other last thing I was going to mention-- what was it? Wait, it'll come to me.

Cynthia Thurlow: One thing I just wanted to say while you're thinking about that is, you think about the reduction in inflammation, and oxidative stress, and the improvement in mitochondrial efficiency relevant to vis-à-vis, eating less frequently and changing your macros is pretty significant. That's just something to keep in mind. I think unfortunately, we, and I say we as an allopathic trained physicians and nurses many times just are so reactionary instead of thinking, “What could be going on?” I try to be very, very respectful of my peers and there are a lot of people doing some tremendous work, but this is definitely an area of medicine that I’ve gotten more and more outspoken about that we really need to turn the tide and stop focusing on the wrong parameters.

Melanie Avalon: I thought of it and also I'm so glad that you said that because that was something I wanted to touch on was, I think it can be a little bit nearsighted to just look at fasting, because with Deborah's question, she's talking about fasting was the thing that raised her LDL, which unlikely to me, but the broader context of the effects of dietary interventions is just huge. I would look at diet as a key player in your cholesterol. But the two things I just thought of, one was, I interviewed Azure Grant on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Her focus is actually ultradian rhythms. Basically, the different time rhythms in cells and she's done a lot of work that helped influence the work of Oura Ring. That's how I was connected to her through Harpreet, who used to be the CEO of Oura. But in any case, she has a fascinating study where they tested cholesterol levels and a group of people constantly throughout the day, which is super cool. These people were testing their cholesterol, which must have been very unpleasant with all of the pricks, but all throughout the day. The fluctuations in the levels were crazy. Every single person at some point during the day had a result that went into the pathological levels, even if they probably didn't have a pathological panel. 

The point of that is that when you test, it was 148, but if you had tested at a different time during that day, it might have been completely different. I think that's why it's actually important to be regularly monitoring these things. I use InsideTracker to keep all of my data together and it's amazing because I can see over time. I put my cholesterol panels in there because we can get really microscopic, and just see this one result, and it can be hard to see the overall picture of like, “What does my panel look like in general? Where am I moving, where am I trending, how are the different levels relating?” I have my cholesterol levels since I started using InsideTracker in 2019. And looking at those graphs, it has been very, very helpful for me, I think get a more, I guess, telling picture of what's happening. But yeah, a lot of good stuff. I got to interview Dave Feldman some time.

Cynthia Thurlow: He's amazing. We spoke together at Keto Salt Lake, and that was the first time I had met him, and my husband got to meet him in person. Dave went on a tangent talking to me to a level that at one point, I was like, “Dave, you just blew my mind.” He's absolutely one of the smartest people I've ever met and just brilliant. He's doing cutting edge research in relationship to LDL particles, and cholesterol, and he's really changing the narrative for medicine, and I'm just so very grateful to have had the opportunity to speak with him, and also be his friends. I would absolutely encourage you to connect with him. He's just so smart. He'll blow your mind. [laughs] He'll have a good meeting of the minds with him for sure.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated by all of the cholesterol stuff because it is just so debated. There are some really intense camps. It's confusing. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode271. The show notes will have all of the links to everything that we talked about, which was a lot of stuff, as well as a full transcript. So, definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and our joint account is @ifpodcast. So, definitely check that out. All righty, well, Cynthia, enjoy your trip.

Cynthia Thurlow: I can't wait. I'm so excited. I'll be posting as much as I can photos of our journey. But I'm really so excited and it's been a very exciting last six months, but I am ready to disconnect and get rejuvenated. We took a big vacation in December and I planned this at the same time knowing that I would need it, and I'm so glad that I did.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I am so excited for you. I can't wait to see and hear all about it. Actually, I'm glad we're talking about this now. For listeners, since Cynthia will be traveling, next week, we're going to air an episode that I did recently with Rick Johnson. Cynthia and I are both major fans of Rick. His work is so mind blowing. Get really excited because I think you guys are really going to enjoy it. That'll be next week. So, all righty, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you in two weeks.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good, my friend. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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