Welcome to Episode 186 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.
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Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 186 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then, this show is for you.
I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
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Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 186 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.
Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.
Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?
Gin Stephens: I am fabulous!
Melanie Avalon: Why are you fabulous?
Gin Stephens: I'm just really enjoying the new group that I have set up that I talked about last week for the new podcast that's coming. We're going to be recording our first episode this week. The name of the group for anyone who-- I hinted at it last week, but I didn't say the name. The name of the group is Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. Sheri has one R. Life lessons with Gin and Sheri, join our community. It is not an intermittent fasting group, we will not answer your intermittent fasting questions. Even if you try to ask them, we will direct you to one of the other groups but it is really like-- such a small part of my life really is intermittent fasting. I have my daily eating window, and then there's the whole rest of my life. So, everything else that doesn't fit in the intermittent fasting box fits into this group. People are loving it. We're right at 5,000 members. People are sharing so many inspirational things, life hacks, laundry hacks, inspirational stories, funny photos. I mean, it's like, we just didn't realize what we were missing.
Melanie Avalon: I'm going to join.
Gin Stephens: Join it. It is so much fun. And I dare you to try to ask an intermittent fasting question.
Melanie Avalon: I think I will.
Gin Stephens: Well, we're not going to approve it. [laughs] We have post approval on and we have three rules. But rule number three is, we do not answer intermittent fasting questions, please ask that in one of Gin's other groups, because we would be delighted to answer them there. Obviously, we don't mind answering intermittent fasting questions all day long, but not in the new group.
Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting. I am totally joining.
Gin Stephens: Well, please join. It's just such a breath of fresh air. I love it. I'm loving it. And my work is intermittent fasting, but I'm not only intermittent fasting. So, it lets me be myself in other ways, like I shared a laundry hack the other day and just all sorts of things. Anyway, join us.
Melanie Avalon: For listeners, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode186, which they also have transcripts now. Very exciting. I'm going to say that every time. I have something fun.
Gin Stephens: Oh, good, yay!
Melanie Avalon: Well, you actually already know this, but--
Gin Stephens: Okay. I'll pretend like I don’t. I'm going to pretend to be surprised. All right, go ahead.
Melanie Avalon: I am on the CGM train!
Gin Stephens: Oh, yay, I already knew that. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: You know what's really funny about the CGM train?
Gin Stephens: That's continuous glucose monitor for anyone who is not understanding the code, but most people probably did. But just in case.
Melanie Avalon: That's funny, yeah, I did put up an Instagram post about it and I just said CGM, and somebody was like, “What's a CGM?” And I was like, “Oh, I guess I should clarify.”
Gin Stephens: Computer Generated Melanie?
Melanie Avalon: Yep, basically. What's funny, interesting is I'm poking and tricking myself with things all the time as a biohacker, of course, nothing illicit, but injecting glutathione, and checking my blood and I have no problem doing that. But I was really scared to do it.
Gin Stephens: It's just the unknown.
Melanie Avalon: It looks intimidating. For listeners, what it is, a continuous glucose monitor. Full disclosure, I am going to be testing two different brands, and see which I like better.
Gin Stephens: And then you're going to tell me, and I'm going to get one?
Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, I'm going to bring them on-- I'll have some episodes-- I'm actually deciding I might bring both companies on the show. I think I'm probably going to interview both of them. And if there's valuable information in both, I might air both of them. But I probably will in the end have one that I prefer, obviously, I'm still thinking about navigating those waters. But in any case--
Gin Stephens: I feel like that would be valuable to them, though even if you decide not to go with theirs as the one you're endorsing. There will still be people that do go with theirs. They could reach some people or nobody.
Melanie Avalon: I feel really weird about it.
Gin Stephens: Just be real upfront with them and just say, “Here's what I'm doing.”
Melanie Avalon: I told both of them because the situation was one of them reached out to me. I don't remember how the first one-- I think the first company contacted me. So, I set them up, I was going to do an interview, I am doing the interview. But then, Paul Saladino, who I had on the show, he introduced me to another company, and he was like, “Just give them a try.” And I was like, “Well, I'm already working with another company.” And they're like, “Well, just try it out. You can compare them, see how it goes.” For listeners, I think it's probably the best of both worlds because I will have experience with both. But, yeah, I was intimidated because the way you put it on, the applicator-- Oh, that's what I was going to say.
Gin Stephens: Is it like the little plunger kind of a thing?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah.
Gin Stephens: The one I used for the PREDICT study was like that.
Melanie Avalon: What brand was the one for the PREDICT study?
Gin Stephens: The one for the PREDICT study was FreeStyle Libre.
Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's what I use, because I'm right on testing Levels, and they use FreeStyle Libre. And the other company I'm going to be testing is Nutrisense and I think they also use FreeStyle Libre. But, yeah, the way you put it on for listeners if you're curious, it's like Gin just said, it's like a plunger with a really intimidating looking needle in it.
Gin Stephens: And then it just feels like someone tapped you on the arm. It doesn't hurt at all. And the little needle thing is so tiny.
Melanie Avalon: You don't feel it.
Gin Stephens: When I took it off, I was like me, “Man, that's so little.” Well, it was longer than I was expecting it to be, but it's not thick. It's really-- [crosstalk]
Melanie Avalon: How do you take it off? I haven't gotten to that point yet. Do you just rip it off?
Gin Stephens: Yeah, you do. Did you put an adhesive patch over it too?
Melanie Avalon: Yes, I put a Levels cover over it right now, branded. Did you?
Gin Stephens: They sent like a little like a big band-aid kind of a patch, but I don't like having things stuck to me. So, that's part of the problem. I didn't like all the adhesive that it left on my arm.
Melanie Avalon: I might have talked about this before-- yeah, we have talked about this. I like to remove decision fatigue by what I wear every day. I basically have three bathing suit cover ups made of terry cloth but they look like dresses. They are dresses sort of-- I basically wear them every single day. I just rotate them out. They're black with a white insignia and this patch is black with a white icon, so it matches.
Gin Stephens: But that's what you wear around the house. You don't wear that if you're going out, right?
Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, I wear it out.
Gin Stephens: You do, your bathing suit coverup?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it looks like a dress, though.
Gin Stephens: Is it strapless?
Melanie Avalon: No, it's a halter. You can look on my Instagram.
Gin Stephens: Okay. But you don't wear it in the winter?
Melanie Avalon: I do.
Gin Stephens: Would you like wear a sweater over it?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like a jacket. I like cold.
Gin Stephens: That's true, you do. Trying to wrap my head around, you're like Steve Jobs with his one outfit.
Melanie Avalon: I really am.
Gin Stephens: Not me. I got lots of things.
Melanie Avalon: I know. When it gets really cold, I transition to five of the same shirts, but they're still short sleeves.
Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh, no.
Melanie Avalon: I can't wear long sleeves. I can't, like I can't. I'm getting anxiety thinking about it.
Gin Stephens: What's on your feet?
Melanie Avalon: During the winter?
Gin Stephens: Well, during the summer and then during the winter. I'm very curious about your shoes.
Melanie Avalon: For as long as I can, I wear flip-flops.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too.
Melanie Avalon: And then during the winter, I forgot what they're called. That's how much I don't like wearing them, tennis shoes.
Gin Stephens: See, I can't wear tennis shoes, cannot. My feet are crazy. My heels are very, very narrow. It's almost like my feet are triangular. They're wide at the balls of my feet, very narrow heels. So, nothing really fits well around my heel, like tennis shoes do not fit me right. They always run up and down. And I hate to wear socks. So, if Uggs ever go out of style-- because I wear Uggs when it's cold. I have some little moccasins that I wear but I don't like to wear socks. But if Uggs ever go out of style, I'll be the crazy old lady still wearing them. And I don't care because you don't have to wear socks. They're so cozy and comfy. I love them.
Melanie Avalon: I might get some Uggs. I'm getting inspired.
Gin Stephens: I just really like how cozy and comfy they are.
Melanie Avalon: I'm really upset though so far with what I've learned from my CGM.
Gin Stephens: What is that?
Melanie Avalon: So, a CGM, basically, rather than having to prick your finger to evaluate your blood sugar levels, it constantly monitors them. I'm really excited to do the interview because I don't think it's actually measuring your blood.
Gin Stephens: It's like inner-sidal fluid? Yeah, I don't know how to say it. I'm going out of my brain.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, when I interview them, I'm going to be like, “Tell me all the details on the science." But it's really cool because you get a picture of your blood and the blood sugar levels constantly.
Gin Stephens: And isn't it interesting how it varies, though? So much variation, even during the fast to the point that people who are like, “I'm so upset. I went and got my fasting blood glucose and it was XYZ.” I'm like, “Well, if you had been there 10 minutes ago, it would have been something different.”
Melanie Avalon: If you've been there one minute ago.
Gin Stephens: It's true! It varies like crazy. It shocked me.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, that is a really good point about the blood sugar test at the doctor's office.
Gin Stephens: It got you somewhere on the curve. And so you might have been at the low of your curve or the high of your curve, but you don't know, and so to freak out, it's just-- Even if it got you on the low of the curve, you might be like, “Oh look, I'm fine,” when really you're not. I mean it could give you the complete wrong picture, which is what I'm like, “Why? Why are we--” Anyway.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%.
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And what I've learned so far, which is a little bit upsetting to me, you know how I've been talking about how I was doing low carb for a long time and every time I tried to bring back fruit in carbs, I didn't feel like metabolically flexible with it? I was really hungry. Honestly, like white knuckling and powering through like I've been eating lots of like a higher carb, lower fat diet for a while that I just felt like it wasn't really working. I was getting blood sugar swings. And when I first put on the CGM, yeah, it didn't look good. And I was like, “This is upsetting.” I was like, “I'm going to go back to low carb and see what happens.” And I did and that is like fixing it, which is upsetting because I want to get back to higher carb again.
Gin Stephens: Well, I really would like to encourage you to try-- I mean, what I learned from mine, my blood sugar control is great when I combine carbs and fat. I know that you like to do one or the other, but have you tried it with the CGM one?
Melanie Avalon: Not with a CGM, but every time I've tried that with my diet, I feel awful.
Gin Stephens: Really? See, that's how I feel great.
Melanie Avalon: I feel like not functional.
Gin Stephens: All right. I need the fat and the carbs together. Gives me that nice little gentle curve, the up and down. It doesn't [swoosh sound] you know.
Melanie Avalon: I did get excited by one thing, though, which I mean, it's not really a good thing, but I'd always suspected it, and this confirmed it. So, it's good to know it's not all in my head. I always felt like I would get severely reactive hypoglycemia after meals, like my blood sugar plummets.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, mine did not, as long as I stuck with the carbs in the fat.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I will give it a thought. I think what I'm going to do is since I have so much testing I have to do because I've got to test them and I got to test the other company, I'm going to ride out this low carb for a little bit and then try to bring back the fruit again and see what happens. So, it's very interesting, though. So, listeners, the point is stay tuned because I will have more information and I will have probably-- or I will have like a discount or an offer or something. So, stay tuned for that.
Gin Stephens: Now, see, here's something interesting. I know that fruit and isolation doesn't work well for me. I already know that. Fruit itself, I think, does give me an issue, but I don't eat fruit by itself. I never do. I just never have. But when I do, if I just open my window with some pineapple, like you said you used to do--
Melanie Avalon: Well, I close it. In the past it would mitigate--
Gin Stephens: Well, the order does matter.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Because in the Ray Peat world, they always suggest combining fruit with protein because it mitigates, actually what I just talked about, but potential reactive hypoglycemia from processing protein without carbs. Sorry, I interrupted.
Gin Stephens: Oh, no, that's fine. But the same thing, fruit by itself doesn't work well for me either. Even like apples with peanut butter, you would think the peanut butter might give you enough to balance it. It just doesn't. Fruit is not my best food.
Melanie Avalon: It used to be my best food, and we're going to get back there, goals.
Gin Stephens: My best food is cheese and beans and dairy and grains. Oh, it really is, for real.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah.
Gin Stephens: Good times. It's fascinating. Do people need to have this? Nope. But it's fascinating to have. It's fun to see. But empowering more than anything to realize that you really are a special snowflake, every one of us is different. And this can help us, if we can see the trends, it could keep us from going down the road of prediabetes, diabetes, and the worsening health benefits. I would think that every insurance company would want to get these machines into everybody's hands that would be willing to have one. Every insurance company should say, “These are for free for anybody who's willing to really dial in your health.” Not as a toy, but as a very powerful tool. But as I was saying, “Do you need one?” Well, it really just confirmed what you kind of already suspected, right?
Melanie Avalon: Something that you said at the beginning, it really is powerful to see how much it fluctuates. I do wonder though if some people-- if there's more like flatline, but I'm just looking at mine right now, I just scanned it. And since noon-- in the past two hours-- right now it says that it's 90, which is higher than I would like, but since noon, I think the lowest was 70 and it's fluctuating between that. So, it's really, really interesting to see how unique you are and how you shouldn't focus on any one number. I wonder if this is accurate too because mine says at night, I drop into the 40s.
Gin Stephens: Mine did not drop that low. No. That's interesting. You hibernated at night.
Melanie Avalon: It's like red on the graph.
Gin Stephens: Mine very rarely dipped into the red. It did a couple times, but not very often.
Melanie Avalon: For clarification, because we said that Gin and I both had the FreeStyle Libre because it's a medical device that requires a prescription. But there are companies-- so when I was saying Levels and Nutrisense, there are companies that are making it available to the general public.
Gin Stephens: They give you the prescription. They do the medical. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon: So, I'm testing their apps too, because then they have an app that interprets it. With Levels right now it says that my metabolic score is 90%, which is exciting. When I first started, I was on the fruit, it was 53%. And then I switched to keto, and now I'm at 90%.
Gin Stephens: So, see, it really does help you figure out what foods work best for your body.
Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I think I'm going to use it to-- because I just want to be eating a higher carb diet. So, I think I'm going to be really careful and see what I can do and keep it on point. I don't know, Paul Saladino, though talked about on his episode with Nutrisense about his CGM and apparently it was like ridiculously flatline. I do wonder if carnivore people-- some of them have that. Or anybody really.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be interesting. I don't know that a flatline is necessarily what we want, either.
Melanie Avalon: During the fast though, maybe.
Gin Stephens: I don't like completely flatline.
Melanie Avalon: Because if you're really ketogenic.
Gin Stephens: Well, it just shows your body's dumping out some of that glycogen that it had hanging around, that's when you go up.
Melanie Avalon: To a person on a ketogenic diet who's--
Gin Stephens: Wouldn't be having that, yeah.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder.
Gin Stephens: But I mean, I know that but the thing that worries me, Melanie, about this is assuming that is what someone should be trying to get. That's the good question. Someone may tweak their diet to flatline when really, that's not the ideal state, which--
Melanie Avalon: This is helpful. These are good questions for me to talk about on the interview. Thank you.
Gin Stephens: And even so, someone might say, “Yes, you want to be flatline. But that doesn't mean it's true.” People say a lot of stuff.
Melanie Avalon: Because that's one of the things I really want to talk to them about because people often say that you want to mitigate-- I think I've talked about this before on this show. People say you want to mitigate high blood sugar after a carb meal, you should have a food combination so that it's a slow rise in blood sugar, but I actually feel maybe it's better to have a spike and then it goes down. It's processing those carbs, rather than--
Gin Stephens: Well, I know I feel better when it's slow. When I was eating their muffins that they had me eat for the study, it was more like-- the ones that were didn't have the fat. There were one kind of muffins were higher fat than the other kind, and I did better on the higher fat muffins, I think. I'm really excited to get my results back.
Melanie Avalon: When do you get the results?
Gin Stephens: Whenever they send them. Yeah, I don't know.
Melanie Avalon: I'm still waiting on results from-- I did a gut microbiome test recently and I still have not received those.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, the PREDICT study also had that. So, they did my gut.
Melanie Avalon: What company?
Gin Stephens: I mean, it's them, PREDICT. PREDICT does it. You send it to them. There's like a guy, his name's on the label that you send it to. And it's really funny, the moderator group, there were three of us going through it at the same time and we were joking about that poor guy that got all of our samples. Yeah, his name was on the address labels, we're like, I can't remember Phil, pretend like his name's Phil. That's not it. But it's like, “Hello Phil, sending you our samples.” But we all send them to the same guy. They all had the same guy on the label.
Melanie Avalon: I always feel we're dropping off those samples in the mail because I've sent so many of them.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I was standing in the post office, mailing them and I had my CGM on. And this guy behind me was-- I might have told the story already. He's like, “What's on your arm?” I'm like, “Hello. Ask me anything.” [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: My friend told me I looked like an android.
Gin Stephens: I told you, Computer Generated Melanie.
Melanie Avalon: I know.
Gin Stephens: Anyway, good times. It's fascinating to have all of this science as we're trying to understand it and optimize it and figure this out. But, again, everything I've found out, really has validated what I already knew. Which is why I'm saying if you feel really strongly about something, and the way you feel and the way you think something works for you, you're probably right. I had zero surprises.
Melanie Avalon: Because even with mine it pretty much showed things I was--
Gin Stephens: You were thinking it wasn't working for you and you're like, “Yep, there it is. Wow, it's worse than I thought.”
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, hypoglycemia after meals, which I still get even with the keto. So, I don't know what to do with that. My body just doesn't like food.
Gin Stephens: I did not. I don't have that. I really think a lot of it is our gut microbiome.
Melanie Avalon: I think so.
Gin Stephens: Heal your gut. Fix it all. So, I'm so terrified, I'm going to do something that'll mess up the good thing I got going on. I never want to do that.
Melanie Avalon: Well, one of the most fascinating things that I've read recently, I think I told you, I'm going to interview Joel Greene. He's the one who kept talking about that has the crazy things that are just blowing my mind, like things I've never heard before about all this?
Gin Stephens: Well, that must be crazy if it's blowing your mind, and you've never heard them.
Melanie Avalon: It is. It's things I've never heard.
Gin Stephens: Like what?
Melanie Avalon: He's the one about seeing how fat loss creates injury to the fat cells and changes the extracellular matrix. So, it's literally injuring your fat cell and the way that the injury is usually repaired is by regaining the weight. That's the reason our bodies try to regain weight. And then, things like how long-term ketogenic diets probably might promote cancer, because of the 4-HNE something, something. There's all this stuff that's just blowing my mind. And one of the things he talks about, though, is bacteria guilds. And he was saying how there are a lot of species of bacteria, but there are guilds that they're in. And so, there's a certain type of bacteria that--
Gin Stephens: Like a bacteria club?
Melanie Avalon: Basically, yeah. It's like a bacteria club, but there are different types of bacteria within the clubs, but there are three main clubs. There's like the carb club, the fat club, and the protein club. And it all relates to-- this is going way in the weeds, nitrogen generation, internal or external. And so, basically a high-protein diet versus a high-fat diet versus a high-carb diet, and how that determines the bacteria guild you have and how that determines so many things, and it's mind blowing. So, listeners, I'm going to I interview him, get excited.
Gin Stephens: So fascinating. We're learning so much. That's the thing, remain curious, because we're learning a lot. And sometimes the new things make us realize the old things were really kind of dumb to even believe. The people who are still like, “It's just calories, in calories out.” I'm like, “Okay, bless your heart.”
Melanie Avalon: He has so much on that about how the gut microbiome affects calories. It's crazy.
Gin Stephens: But people will still claim that's true. It's all just calories in, calories out, and I'm like, “All right, you must not have ever read anything.”
Melanie Avalon: It is literally technically calories in, calories out, but there's so many factors affecting that, it's not the calories you put in your mouth.
Gin Stephens: Right. And the calories out is the part you can't control. That's the big variable. People will say, “My RMR or whatever, resting metabolic rate, is this.” I'm like, “Okay, I don't think so.”
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and even calories in, you can't control because what he talks about the gut bacteria, a certain food might lead to more energy creation from your gut bacteria.
Gin Stephens: So, in the grand scheme of, is it calories in, calories out, I guess, technically. But it's not what you think it is. It's not what it says on the back of the package or on this Google search that tells you what your metabolism should be. And I also am pretty sure your metabolic rate looks a lot like that CGM blood glucose curve, depending on what you're doing right at that minute. It's not static.
Melanie Avalon: I think it was his book. He talks about that. He was saying the metabolism-- I don't know if it was him. Something I was reading recently, it was talking about metabolism and saying that it's not--
Gin Stephens: One number.
Melanie Avalon: There's not a rate. It's not a thing. It's just not. Like you're burning certain calories or you're not.
Gin Stephens: Every time someone says, “All you have to do is calculate your metabolic rate and then eat 500 calories fewer per day.” I'm like, “Okay, yeah, that sounds so good. But that's not really how our bodies work.” Anyway.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Stay tuned for all these conversations.
Gin Stephens: Are we ready to get to our questions?
Melanie Avalon: I think so.
Gin Stephens: All right, we've got one from Samantha. And she says, “Hey, there, Melanie and Gin. I'm three weeks into IF down about five-ish pounds, but mostly just feeling great. I'm loving your podcast. I've downloaded yours and Gin's second books and trying to catch up ASAP. I'm listening to your Weird IF Problems episode, so great.” That was a long time ago, Melanie. Was that number 100? No, that was Ask Me Anything.
Melanie Avalon: That was a while ago, we should do something fun like that again.
Gin Stephens: That would be fun. All right. “People around me think I'm crazy while I giggle to myself. Hey, there's another weird problem. I want to order wearable weights, but I don't see them on the 'stuff we like' page, can you steer me in the right direction, please? I'm curious what an appropriate weight is. I want to get bonus exercise from walking my dog, but don't want to end up with leg cramps. I was thinking four pounds. Where did you start and what do you were? I am 37 on my way from 160 to 140 or lower. Thanks, Sam.”
Melanie Avalon: All right, Sam, thank you for your question. Yes. So, that's one of the strange things I do what I wear, like wrist weights all the time. All the time at the grocery store, while cleaning. Four pounds, if you mean four pounds total, that might be a good place to start. But normally, I just wear--there's like wearable risk weights you can get that are usually like a pound or two pounds, and that's what I would get. And they have them on Amazon, we can add it to the Stuff We Like. Or they usually have them at Marshall's, Ross, TJ Maxx, that's where I always get them. So, go there. And I think I mentioned this before, but another way that literally started toning my arms a lot was if you make all of your bowls like cast iron.
Gin Stephens: [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: I'm not even kidding. Especially because then you have to wash it-- like me scraping it out, especially if I cook eggs in it, the next morning takes me 10 minutes, and I think it's a really good toning workout for my arms.
Gin Stephens: I'm doing lots of toning then because my dishwasher is broken.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, see?
Gin Stephens: And I was so glad, Melanie, that my dishwasher broke and it's all very bittersweet because I hate this dishwasher that this house came with.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, so you're going to get a new one?
Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was like a KitchenAid from, I don't know, over 10 years ago. So, it was a nice one when they bought it. Really, really nice, but dishwashers really have come a long way. It might even be 20 years old. I don't know when they remodeled that kitchen, but it was old. But you couldn't adjust the top higher or lower, the top rack. It was fixed. So, nothing fit, like wine glasses don't fit anywhere. Crazy.
Melanie Avalon: I don't know you could normally adjust the rack. I don't know if you can. I'm in an apartment, though. I don't know if that matters.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, but here's something so interesting. I went to go order a new one. And I had to wait like a month before they could deliver it and install it.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?
Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm like I feel like this should be an emergency. And people with a dishwasher should go to the top of the list, but they just looked at me. I didn't really say that, but.
Melanie Avalon: You ordered it from the company?
Gin Stephens: We got it from Best Buy.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Do they install it? How does that work? I've never ordered a dishwasher.
Gin Stephens: We're paying $150 to have it delivered and installed. They would deliver it for free if we could install it. But I'm like, “No, we cannot install it.” That's a no. I can install a blender. We're good at many things, but not installing dishwashers. Now, somebody will probably write in and say how easy it is. It probably is, we could probably learn how.
Melanie Avalon: We're definitely going to get feedback about this.
Gin Stephens: I would like to not have to know how. I feel like that would lead to a lot of stress on our marriage, trying to together install a dishwasher. They said they're going to bring it, but they can't bring it till the end of October. So, I am washing all the dishes. I'm also getting very creative and doing more cooking in the oven. Last night, I did all of it on a sheet pan with tin foil or aluminum foil.
Melanie Avalon: Nice.
Gin Stephens: That was easy to clean. I still had to wash the plates.
Melanie Avalon: I always use a convection oven. So easy.
Gin Stephens: Our wall oven is a convection oven.
Melanie Avalon: And Instant Pot.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, I hadn't gotten on the Instant Pot bandwagon yet.
Melanie Avalon: It's fun. I think I'm going to make cottage cheese in it. I'm so excited.
Gin Stephens: I do love cottage cheese. You're going to make cottage cheese?
Melanie Avalon: I am.
Gin Stephens: And you're going to eat dairy?
Melanie Avalon: I've been eating some cottage cheese.
Gin Stephens: I didn't know that.
Melanie Avalon: But I rinse it. Did we talk about this?
Gin Stephens: No. You should strain it and send me the-- I would probably drink cottage cheese juice or whatever that is, the liquid.
Melanie Avalon: You take the rest. Well, that's why I realized I could start making my own and then I won't have to rinse it.
Gin Stephens: Why do you rinse it?
Melanie Avalon: Because they add back in the cream and I wanted to make it fat free.
Gin Stephens: Oh.
Melanie Avalon: So, if I just make it from skimmed milk-- when they make cottage cheese, I realized all the ones you buy at the store, they make the cottage cheese but then they add back in cream.
Gin Stephens: Oh, I didn't know that.
Melanie Avalon: And I don't want that cream, so you can rinse off that cream. Or you can make some on the Instant Pot.
Gin Stephens: Well, now I'm craving cottage cheese.
Melanie Avalon: Fun fact. Did you know that your house contains a Faraday cage?
Gin Stephens: No. Is it in your microwave?
Melanie Avalon: Yes.
Gin Stephens: Okay. Yeah, I did know that.
Melanie Avalon: So, friends, listeners, if you ever want to completely stop all communication with your phone, like airplane mode to the extreme, put it in the microwave.
Gin Stephens: And don't turn it on.
Melanie Avalon: And don’t turn it on. Gosh.
Gin Stephens: No, really. I have personal experience about that.
Melanie Avalon: You turned on the microwave?
Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I didn't, no. One of my children did.
Melanie Avalon: Put their phone in the microwave?
Gin Stephens: Yeah, they thought it would be a hilarious video.
Melanie Avalon: What happened?
Gin Stephens: It made the phone completely stop working. They did not confess it to me till years later. Okay, so first of all, I need to disclaimer this story, because I actually feel like I should contact the Apple Store and pay them back. But this was when one of my children was in middle school, so it was so long ago, okay, because they're not grownups and I didn't know the truth for years and now I feel like the statute of limitations. But he was like, “My phone stopped working. It won't work at all.” And I'm like, “Well, that's not good.” He's like, “It won't turn on, nothing will happen.” So, we went to the Apple Store. You know they test to make sure it didn't drop in water? Well, it didn't drop in water.
Melanie Avalon: Wait, how old was your son?
Gin Stephens: I mean maybe sixth grade> It was a long time ago, a long time ago. And they're like, “We don't know what happened. Here's the new phone.” And like, “Okay, thank you. Y'all are awesome.” And then, years later, he's like, "Yeah, I put it in the microwave." And I'm like, “What? We stole aside from the Apple Store,” because I would never mislead them on purpose. I'd be like, “He put it in the microwave.” I always tell the truth.
Melanie Avalon: It didn't explode?
Gin Stephens: Nope. Just stopped working. It bricked it. Apple Store, I'm so sorry. I apologize. I feel like I should go there and pay them back for this old iPhone from a long time ago. Anyway. Never do that.
Melanie Avalon: Fun Facts with Melanie and Gin. Basically, a Faraday cage blocks like all everything, electricity wise.
Gin Stephens: Now, I feel like I shouldn't tell that story because I'm like, embarrassed because I'm such an honest person.
Melanie Avalon: You didn't know.
Gin Stephens: I didn't know. And it was years later that he told me.
Melanie Avalon: I feel like I probably done something like that. Nothing's coming to mind right now.
Gin Stephens: I should march him in there right now and say, “This young man right here owes you for an iPhone.” I won't say which child it was that did it. So, I'll protect his anonymity.
Melanie Avalon: I bet I know which one.
Gin Stephens: You probably do. I don't know. You could be wrong.
Melanie Avalon: Really? Actually, wait, now I'm thinking. Now, I might not know.
Gin Stephens: One of them would have known better. Let me just put it that way.
Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. Then, I know which one. All right. So, our next question comes from Josephine. The subject is "Frustrating Plateau. Help, Plus Feels." And Josephine says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I am now on month four of IF with a protocol of 18:6 or 19:5 depending on the day. I lost weight in month two, and then have completely stalled. The weird thing is, I haven't changed a thing. If anything, my stomach has shrunk to where I can't eat the quantities I ate before in my eating window. Additionally, I added a few weeks of extra cardio towards the end of my fasting window. But still, my body looks exactly the same. The same fat pockets on my upper thighs and belly remain. I'm sleeping really well, so I know it's not cortisol. I am no more stressed than I have ever been. I am not eating fattier or more carb-heavy foods, nor more caloric foods. I am so perplexed. I really, really, really do not want to do ADF. It just sounds miserable to go an entire day without food. Is that really the only way to break through this plateau? Do you and Melanie have any other suggestions for me to tweak my protocol? I just want to lose those last five to seven stubborn fat pockets. It feels like my body wants to hold on to them for dear life.” Then, she has another question, but we can go ahead and answer that.
Gin Stephens: This is one of those things, it's hard to know exactly. But five to seven pounds is what Josephine wants to lose. The last five to seven pounds. Also, we have got genetically different bodies. I've got a certain kind of thighs, so does my mother, we are built a certain way. I would not lose certain parts of my body no matter how hard I try, because it's how my body is built. I've just got those kind of hips, those kind of thighs. It's, I guess, the stubborn fat, but it's genetic. So, I wonder if Josephine is fighting against just genetic fat, that's just how she's built, that's her size. She might be at her perfect weight, that her body thinks is her perfect weight. See, that's the trick right there. You may think your perfect weight is different than your body thinks your perfect weight is and it's really, really hard to change your genetic perfect weight.
When we're dealing with five to seven pounds, that's just something to keep in mind. We are all built differently. I am never going to be-- like, I remember one time back in the 90s or something, I was like, “I just want to be lanky.” And my husband said, “You're not going to be lanky. That's not how you're built.” And I got super offended, then I'm like, “Oh yeah, you're right.” I'm never going to be lanky, that's not my body tight. So, if it feels like your body wants to hold on to that for dear life, that might be really what's happening.
Now, are there ways to lose more weight? Assuming that this is not where your body wants to be, and you can lose five to seven more pounds of fat. It doesn't have to be ADF, you don't have to go an entire day without food, even if you do ADF. You could do the down day version with the 500-calorie meal if that works for you. Or you could say, “Nope, I'm not going to do ADF at all.” I have a hybrid approach. I have several different approaches listed in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Check out the IF Toolbox chapter for that.
But you could also tweak your food choices. You said you're not eating fattier or more carb-heavy foods or more caloric foods. You're eating foods that are helping you maintain right where you are. So, in order to lose more, you're going to need to change something. Change what you're eating, tweak it in some way or another, the Feast section of Fast. Feast. Repeat. can help you figure that out, some things that you might want to tweak. Melanie is finding that for her, really a lower carb, higher fat approach is working really well for her body right now. She's also experimented with the lower fat approach. So, try some different things. Those last five to seven pounds can be the most stubborn for all of us.
And really, this may be also the time to throw the scale away and focus on body changes. Photos, huge. I mentioned to Melanie that I've been using my Shapa scale, the numberless scale, and I've been on teal, after giving up wine and not drinking, except on a few special occasions. I've been on teal, which indicates very slow and steady weight loss. But I have a pair of honesty pants. I took my photos in them in May and then I just took photos wearing the same pants the other day. And I've completely lost some love handles that had popped up at some point. The photos showed such a difference. I didn't even realize I had those love hands, honestly. But I've been going through menopause, I'd been drinking a lot more wine. My body had changed and now it's changing back. I haven't gotten on the scale, but other than my numberless the scale, I haven't seen a number. So, I really am curious what the weight fluctuation was for me, but the only thing I've changed is taking out wine. And boy, my body has changed from those photos.
Melanie Avalon: I forgot. Does the Shapa scale ever show you a weight ever?
Gin Stephens: Oh, I could touch a certain place and it would show it to me. I could touch it. Every now and then I look at that and I'm like tempted.
Melanie Avalon: Can you make it so that it doesn't ever show you as well? Can you make it colors from the start? Or does it give you a weight at the beginning?
Gin Stephens: Oh, I've never seen a weight. I haven't seen a weight the whole time. Yes. Now, if you set it to sync to Apple Health or something, if you set it to sync, you're going to see your weight. So, don't set it to sync with other apps if you don't want to see your weight. I just wanted to see the color. Yesterday, I had a longer window and back in the days that I was weighing and seeing a number-- I mean, I haven't seen a number since 2017. Literally, I have not seen a weight number since 2017.
Melanie Avalon: What do you do at the doctor?
Gin Stephens: I don't look at a number. I don't want to see a number. I don't want you to tell me a number. I refuse to know a number.
Melanie Avalon: I don't look either. But sometimes they tell me it.
Gin Stephens: Well, they're not going to tell me if I tell them not to, and I mean it. Anyway, I don't want to see a number. Yesterday, I had a longer eating window, and so this morning, if I were looking at numbers, even though I know that fluctuation is okay, this morning, I was like, “Hmm, I wonder if my weight's higher today.” But I didn't care because I got on the scale and there was my color. It just shows you your overall trend. So, anyone who's interested--
Melanie Avalon: What's the maintenance color?
Gin Stephens: Green is the maintenance color.
Melanie Avalon: What's the gaining color?
Gin Stephens: A lighter gray, and then a darker gray. And I want to know if I'm ever gaining weight because apparently, I did gain a little weight over-- maybe it was the pandemic, I don't know, I was drinking more. We were all stressed out. A lot of people gained weight early in the pandemic, even intermittent fasters who'd been maintaining for years. So, how much of it was menopause? How much was pandemic? How much was the extra wine? Are they really all related? Probably. But I think if I'd had it, I probably would have seen gray and it would have helped me realize, okay, I am gaining weight because even in your clothes-- I mean, I was still wearing the same clothes. I didn't have to go up a clothing size. I was still at a button everything, at no time did I not fit in my clothes. But the way I looked at them according to the photo was different. If I hadn't had the photos, I wouldn't even realize. Take those photos.
If you're interested in the Shapa scale, the website is myshapa.com, I think is the website. And the promo code is IFSTORIES. You'll get a special deal, but, man, I love it. I think it's really life changing and even people-- if you get on it and you see gray, people like, “Yeah, well, that upsets me.” But it's information. If your pants are too tight, that's upsetting as well. But having the information while you can take action is the point of it.
Melanie Avalon: Exactly.
Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show, and that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to daily news digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.
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All right, so what would you like to say to Josephine about what I said?
Melanie Avalon: I really like everything you said, just basically going to emphasize and resay some of the things you said that, a lot of our bodies will be at a point like Gin said, where they are happy with where they're at and if it is a matter of those last 5 or 10 pounds, I know she said 5 or 7-- and I'm learning a lot about this reading that Joel Greene book, there can be fat that is exactly like you said, stubborn. And if you want it gone because of your goals and aesthetically and for whatever reason, because that's everybody's own prerogative, I don't really have any comments. I don't think we should find worth in our body weight and I don't think we should judge ourselves by that. But if you want-- if that's like an important goal to you, I don't have any problem with that either.
Gin Stephens: Unless it makes you miserable. I have a problem with that because she talks about fat pockets on her thighs and belly. I've got a fat pocket on my belly. And so, I choose a bathing suit that goes up a little higher. And there are certain styles of bathing suits I'm not going to wear. I wear a more high-waisted bathing suit and tuck that stuff in it and feel great on the beach. I'm not trying to have a body that my body is not going to want to maintain. I could do it. I could lose, but I don't want to live that way. And it would be really hard to maintain. So, you want to pick a weight where you can feel beautiful, or handsome, but also still enjoy your life. That's what I think.
Melanie Avalon: 100%, I agree. I think out of all of it, and Gin said this, and she said this, but she said she's not eating more carbs or more fat or more calories, but-- I talk about this all the time. But really paying attention to the macros is a thing, so potentially trying low carb, high fat or high fat, low carb and making sure it actually really does fit those macros. So, for high carb, low fat, I would suggest, and this sounds a little bit crazy, but 10% or less calories from fat is usually what is “prescribed” for that. I did an interview with Cyrus and Robbie of Mastering Diabetes, I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Or if you're doing low carb, high fat, making sure it actually is low carb, high fat.
That's usually-- I mean, if you want to definitely be spot on, they say like 20 grams are lots of carbs. Sometimes, it's a little bit more. But really zoning in and trying one of those approaches can do wonders. The biggest thing for me that I'm probably going to say every single time, maybe for the rest of my life is looking at seed oils, polyunsaturated fats, PUFAs, omega-6s in particular. I did recently have Cate Shanahan on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, that was last week, I think. The reception to that episode was insane. Definitely listen to it, there's something to consider there about getting PUFAs out of your diet, because if you want to turn your fat cells into-- this is something that Joel Greene talks about a lot. Your fat cells are not just fat cells, this was really mind blowing for me. They're not just fat cells. They are a lot of things. They can store fat, but they also contain immune cells, they also contain stem cells that can either become immune cells or fat cells. They're not just there to store fat, they're there to store toxins to protect us. That's why cleaning up your endocrine exposure through your skincare and makeup, things like that, Beautycounter is an example. It can be really, really important. When the fat cell no longer is functioning as a fat cell, if it's been damaged by polyunsaturated fats, or by weight loss, or whatever it is, it can be really hard to lose it. It can literally become stubborn fat. And if you want to get it gone, it can be really, really hard when the signals in that fat cell are working against you, because all of the signals in that fat cell are to keep it at its present state. And so, this is also something we're like, topically addressing-- Especially if you combined with fasting or one of the diets like a high carb, low fat or low carb, high fat, combined with topical treatment, I think can be really helpful.
So, I don't know, because I haven't done it, but I talked about this before. But Joel Greene in his book talks about topical treatments that involve like menthol on the stubborn fat pockets. Caffeine is also a topical treatment you can use. I know there are lot of creams out there, but I get really nervous about the creams because they usually have a lot of nasty compounds in them that you don't want in your body. I haven't seen a lot of research on this. But even putting coffee on the areas, especially while you're fasting. Red light therapy, we talk about Joovv a lot. There are different theories behind how that works, but the thought is that the wavelengths actually break down that fat cell membrane and help the fatty acids leak out into the bloodstream. And this feels a whole tangent rabbit hole but basically, if it is stubborn fat where that fat cell has decided it's not releasing its fat for whatever reason, sometimes you've got to help give it a signal to do so, that's why I think things like topical treatment, red light therapy, combined with dietary changes might work. The fitness models, and people who do this for living, they're doing it for a living. It's their job to fight this. Compared to the everyday person where it's not always so easy.
Gin Stephens: That's the whole dilemma because you said earlier, if that's your goal and you really want to work for that, of course, it's your right to do it. And we're not judging anybody who wants to, if it's your job or if you're a model, but it just makes me feel sad. And even a lot of the people that we see, the models, that's not really how they look because the photos have been airbrushed, they've been doctored. They don't really look like that. So, we're trying to look like somebody that's not even how they look. And the people that are like the competition figure people, they don't look like that every day.
Melanie Avalon: And then after it's like, usually-- because we've had Wade Lightheart on, he talks about that a lot and Joel Greene talks about the awful-- like weight cycling, like what that does to your body.
Gin Stephens: It just makes me sad to think that we're trying to get to these ideals that are not real. Again, some of the people like the Victoria's Secret models, they have a different genetic look than I do. There is not one single thing I could do to look like the Victoria's Secret Angels, like nothing, it wouldn't happen. I couldn't.
Melanie Avalon: Like, you can't increase your height.
Gin Stephens: I can't or my leg length or get rid of my fat pockets. That's just the way I am. Anyway, so many things we could talk about forever and ever. All right, you want to get the rest of that question?
Melanie Avalon: Yes. Josephine has one more question. She says, “Also, one last unrelated question. I bought Feals CBD oil, but I'm scared to take it during my fasting window since it has calories. Did I hear you wrong, Gin, when you said you don't mind taking it during your fasting window? Could you please explain why? Don't any calorie spike insulin? Thanks.” And then, she says, “I hope you both remain healthy and well during this crazy time.”
Gin Stephens: First of all, let's get that one sentence, “calories spiking insulin.” Really, it's more complicated than the idea of calories. Some calories spike insulin more than other calories. Some would barely spike it like an oil, for example. But that has another issue, it's not all about insulin. We do want to avoid calories. We do want to avoid spiking insulin. Flavors and sweeteners are more likely to spike insulin higher than like just a little MCT oil, for example. Neither would I recommend during the fast if you're hoping to fast clean, but now let's talk about the complexity that is medication or supplements that you need. So, if you have an issue that Feals CBD oil is going to help you with, anxiety, really terrible anxiety problems, pain. I'm trying to think of all the things that CBD oil can help with. Depression. If you had to choose between keeping your fast completely clean and dealing with a medical issue that is debilitating, then please take the CBD oil. It's not going to affect you so badly that you're not going to recover from it.
Now, if you're just taking it just to see, keep it in your eating window if you can, or if you're taking it for sleep purposes, that sort of thing. But if I needed Feals and the only time that I could take it was during the fast because it was going to help me and I needed it therapeutically during the fast, I would not hesitate to take it. That being said, it absolutely does break my fast because I've experimented with it during the fast and it made me hungry in a different kind of way. I had to open my window and I had to eat. So, I can't take it during the fast. I have to take it during my eating window or close to bedtime. You'll just have to experiment and see. But if it's something you need and you need to take it in the fast and it doesn't make you want to gnaw your arm off, like it made me so hungry, then it's fine.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. For listeners, I'm a huge fan of CBD, because basically it works on your brain's endocannabinoid receptors and it modulates them. It's not addictive, like a drug, it's not making you need the CBD oil. It's just changing that whole system to potentially work for the better and like Gin mentioned all the things that can help with. I'm always shocked by its potency because especially I've had periods of like more anxiety, and I would take a daily and then not take it as much. But I just know when I got broken into that one time. That's when it really sold me because I was like crying and bawling and I was so stressed, and I couldn't even handle it and I took like a big dose of it. And I was literally like laughing 15 minutes later. So, it can be really incredible. But I do want to give a caveat that I wouldn't just take any CBD because now that it's popular, it's everywhere and there's no quality control. So, I really wanted to vet out a brand that would meet all my criteria, which is it's full spectrum, it's organic-- it's made with organic carrier, and it's tested. Feals does all of that. And they also shipped straight to your door, which is pretty incredible.
When I take it, it doesn't make me hungry, and it doesn't have that effect at all. Basically, what Gin just said, you've got to just experiment for you and see how it affects anything. If there was one type of oil that I think would be least likely to “break a fast,” it would be MCT oil. I'm not saying bulletproof coffee, like tablespoons of MCT oil. I'm saying like, when you take Feals, it's like just a few drops. So, I think the potential there is a lot less compared to a lot of other things. But, yes, I basically echo everything that Gin said. But honestly, Feals really does have me feeling my best every day when I take it. And I think that it can help you guys too. And you can become a member today, you just go to feals.com/ifpodcast. And if you do that, you will actually get 50% off your first order with free shipping, which I say this every time, but I think that's one of our best offers out of all the brands we work with. So, I'm so grateful for that. That's F-E-A-L-S dotcom slash IF podcast, o become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping, feals.com/ifpodcast.
Okay. Well, don't think we have time for anything else, but this has been absolutely wonderful. Few final resources for listeners before we go. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode186. You can join our Facebook groups. Okay, wait, Gin. So, what's your Facebook group called again?
Gin Stephens: It's called Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. G-I-N is Gin. Sheri, S-H-E-R-I. Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri, answer the three questions. We're having so much fun reading the answers to the questions. People are explaining why they're there. Everyone's answers are so fitting in with our vision for this community.
Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm excited to see what they are and to answer.
Gin Stephens: Almost everybody in the group came out of our other Facebook groups at this point because we don't have the podcast yet, no one's listening to it because doesn't exist yet. But eventually people will find it and get to the Facebook group, not having-- they won't be intermittent fasters. Right now, almost everybody is an intermittent faster. But just seeing how our community is amazing already. It's just amazing. Everyone is just very positive, and people are just incredible. The things that we deal with in our daily lives, we're so much more than just our fasting protocol. It's nice to talk about something else is what I'm saying. It's so nice. We're talking about everything. You know how Seinfeld was the show about nothing?
Melanie Avalon: I didn't know that.
Gin Stephens: That's what they always said, the show about nothing. Well, we are the Facebook group about everything.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it.
Gin Stephens: Yeah.
Melanie Avalon: I'm really happy and excited for you because that sounds like the vibe I've been feeling in my Facebook group. We talk about everything.
Gin Stephens: We're not about health only. I mean we will talk about that. Our first podcast, we're going to talk about sleep, our first episode, but we're going to talk about things like that. But also, some more funny things. One of the topic ideas for a podcast is famous sayings, the origin of sayings, like we say them all the time, but where do they come from? What's the origin of that? Doesn’t that sound interesting? We can really talk about whatever we want.
Melanie Avalon: I'm going to send you two mind-blowing articles I've read recently that are like this, that blew my mind.
Gin Stephens: Awesome. But then, we're also going to share the funniest wrong ones. Like what you've heard, perhaps your-- my husband, Chad has a say. I'll share this on the podcast, not today, but something he was saying that he thought was the same, but I'm like, “What did you just say?” But we all have had things like that, where we thought it was one thing, but it was not. So, we'll share some of those really funny misunderstood or missaid sayings.
Melanie Avalon: I've got to send you.
Gin Stephens: Please do.
Melanie Avalon: I think it was mind-blowing facts about some words and phrases that would blow your mind. Oh, my goodness, it blew my mind!
Gin Stephens: We're going to be able to talk about anything we want. And it's going to be interesting and sometimes it'll be serious, like, how are we going to navigate the holidays with COVID? That's a serious topic, or a fun topic. It's just really going to be anything that people want to hear. We're going to have different segments where listeners are going to share things. I'm so excited.
Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting.
Gin Stephens: I will never stop intermittent fasting and the two podcasts that I already have. I'll never stop those because that's important to me. But it's nice to have something else to talk about.
Melanie Avalon: Yep. So, listeners, definitely join that group and you can also join my group as well, which is IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting, plus real foods, plus life. It is more biohacking related, but you can also talk about anything you like there. So, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon where you can see a picture of my CGM where I look like an android. And you can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. I think that's everything.
Gin Stephens: Yep. I enjoyed it.
Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin, before we go?
Gin Stephens: I think I said it all.
Melanie Avalon: Okay. All right. I will talk to you next week.
Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.
Melanie Avalon: Bye. Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Gin: GinStephens.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
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